AA History Lovers 2006 Messages 3002-3975 moderated by Nancy Olson September 18, 1929 – March 25, 2005 Glenn F. Chesnut June 28, 1939 – IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3002. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety and James H. From: JNP in Maine . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 8:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I met James H. in 1997 at the Wilson House in Vermont. I am almost positive he had said that he was not a member of AA and never had been. Does anyone have any info re this statement by him. Thanks Joe Petrocelli (jopet34 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3003. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant January Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2005 1:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking. Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School. Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of "Alcoholics Anonymous". Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression. Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA. Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob. Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety". Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus, Ohio Central Group. Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland. Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded. Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan. Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get away from the Oxford Group atmosphere". Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years sober. Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous, died. Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group. Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School, Akron, Ohio. Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years dies. Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician Heal Thyself" died. Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC. Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri. Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto. Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started in Oct 24 1943. Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in his sleep. Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in Pennington, New Jersey. Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001. Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church in Brookyn Heights. Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL. Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley. Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1. Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus Contra Spiritum". End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated for comment, evaluation and sale. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3004. . . . . . . . . . . . Long-Term Success Higher in 2004 Survey From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2006 12:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How long have members of A.A. been sober? That is one of the questions in the triennial survey among randomly selected groups in the U.S. and Canada every three years. Surveys are all done during a one to two week period. Everyone who is at a particular meeting of each of those groups is asked to participate. LENGTH OF SOBRIETY IN ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Survey Year ...<1 ..... 1-5 .... >5 ...... Average **77 ... 37.3% .. 38.0% .. 24.7% ... 4 years **80 ... 36.4% .. 37.2% .. 26.4% ... 4 years **83 ... 37.7% .. 36.9% .. 24.9% ... 4 years **86 ... 32.8% .. 38.4% .. 29.0% ... 4+ years 1989 ... 34% .... 37% .... 29% ..... 4+ years 1992 ... 31% .... 34% .... 35% ..... 5+ years 1996 ... 27% .... 28% .... 45% ..... 6+ years 1998 ... 27% .... 26% .... 47% ..... 7+ years 2001 ... 30% .... 22% .... 48% ..... 7+ years 2004 ... 26% .... 24% .... 50% ..... 8+ years As of the 2004 Survey, long-term sobriety was so prevalent that "Greater Than Five Years" was broken into two parts as follows: 5-10 Years = 14% >10 Years = 36% ------------------ adding >5 Years = 50% For those unfamiliar with Alcoholics Anonymous, sobriety in A.A. means continuous and complete abstinence from alcohol in any form. This table represents only those who are sober and still attending meetings. Someone who got sober in A.A. and who is staying sober by some other means would not appear in the survey. NOTE: Entries with dates beginning ** here are from a summary. Those with complete years are from copies of published pamphlets: "(P-48) Alcoholics Anonymous YYYY Membership Survey" ___________________ En2joy! Tom En2ger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3005. . . . . . . . . . . . Definitions of the "real alcoholic" (re 3 and 5-year survival rates) From: hoojgs . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 10:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My comments below do not address the question of the statistical accuracy of the survival rate study but relate to the history of the debate over who is a "real alcoholic." I wonder if anyone has seen the actual long list of membership requirements that Bill collected in the days before the adoption of the third tradition. Thanks in advance, Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3006. . . . . . . . . . . . James H. and length of sobriety From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 6:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Gary, James Houck was never a member of AA. He is the last original Oxford Grouper and puts on those workshop with a friend of his who was in AA. I do not know whether the friend is alive or not. Diz T. Tallahassee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3007. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: Des Green . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 4:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII (With a comment by Glenn C. at the end) Hi, With respect to what Fiona D. said in Message 2992 (http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2992). Constant references to the REAL alcoholic sometimes confuses me. If a person takes a drink and cannot control their intake is that not a real alcoholic ? If this allergy, or whatever it is has progressed to the point that alcohol is dominating ones every waking thought and the consumption of it is the most important thing is that not a real alcoholic? The suggestion sometimes seems to be that no alcoholic can recover unless they are in AA and attend meetings . So what is it you are saying here ? 1. There are people who are pretending to be alcoholic? 2. Some people are more alcoholic than others? I'm fairly new to all this, 21 months sober. And please don't think I am having a go at you personally, I'm not. I'm simply picking up your thread to obtain an answer, not necessarily from you. This is another thing that does my head in .... having to be so careful about the sensitivities of others when nothing insensitive is intended. Best wishes, Des It really is great to be sober and in such a fantastic fellowship Good Luck! ______________________________ Des, Let me try my hand at answering your question. It was common in early AA to distinguish between three different kinds of drinkers. Let's call them Types 1, 2, and 3 for the purposes of this discussion. Sometimes they were called (Type 1) "social drinkers," (Type 2) "heavy drinkers," and (Type 3) "alcoholics." Richmond Walker, in Twenty Four Hours a Day (1948), referred to the last category as "merry go round drinkers." Mrs. Marty Mann makes this same kind of distinction in the book she wrote for the National Council on Alcoholism. Our South Bend good old timer, Brownie, makes that three-fold distinction in the material about him in The St. Louis Gambler and the Railroad Man. Dr. Jellinek (and many others) tried to make distinctions of this same sort during the 1940's and 1950's. It had been noted that some alcoholics were clearly drinking alcoholically from the time they took their very first drink. The first time they had a chance at a bottle (even if they were just teenagers), they drank themselves rip roaring drunk, and they just kept on drinking that way from that point on. But other alcoholics started out as social drinkers, and then gradually began drinking more and more, until finally after enough years they crossed some invisible line, and became clearly and unambiguously alcoholic drinkers. Psychologists who study alcoholism and public health agencies which are concerned with alcoholism have found that they also have to make some kind of distinction between people who are drinking a lot, and people who are alcoholics. You cannot measure the amount of alcohol that is consumed and use that to determine who is a heavy drinker and who is an alcoholic. All sorts of fancy definitions have been dreamed up by psychologists, medical doctors, and so on, to try to identify where you make the division between Type Two heavy drinkers (or "alcohol abusers" or whatever term you're using) and Type Three genuine alcoholics. Let us not get into quarrels about what precise terminology to use here, because there have been a variety of different terms used over the years. But as far as I can see, the basic distinction historically has been a simple one. A Type Two heavy drinker (or alcohol abuser, or whatever) who is given sufficient reason to stop drinking, will be able to stop on his own simply by using will power. Maybe his doctor puts him on a heart medication and tells him that he has to take the medication to save his life, and that this medication cannot be mixed with alcohol in the system. Or something in his life puts him in a situation where he will get in enormous trouble if he does not quit. So he simply grits his teeth, and stops drinking. Just like that. Permanently. A Type Three true alcoholic will find that he cannot stop drinking on his own, by his own will power, no matter how serious the consequences are going to be. His wife says that she will leave him, his employer says that he will fire him, the judge says that he will give him twenty years in prison the next time he drives drunk, his doctor says that he will be dead within a year if he keeps on drinking. But no matter what it is, a true alcoholic will STILL keep drinking, in spite of all that, if he is trying to do it by himself by his own willpower. If you listen to tape recordings of the good old timers, you will find numerous examples of alcoholics whose drinking was destroying them totally, who still could not stop on their own, simply by using will power. One thing which muddies the waters nowadays, is that (beginning with Dr. Jellinek's famous chart back in the 1940's) the experts on alcoholism have assembled data on the way that the disease of alcoholism progresses, where they can spot the symptoms of Type Three chronic alcoholism much earlier than they could in the 1930's and 1940's. So nowadays we can sometimes identify a person as definitely a chronic alcoholic early in the progression of the disease, and send that person off to AA, and save that person an awful lot of misery and heartbreak, EVEN THOUGH in early AA they would not have allowed that person to attend AA meetings because they would have felt that this person's drinking did not qualify him or her to be a "true alcoholic" yet. So is this particular individual a Type Two heavy drinker who is getting himself or herself in trouble, and maybe needs some encouragement to quit doing that from a psychotherapist or someone like that? Or is this particular individual a Type Three alcoholic EARLY in the progression of the disease, who hasn't gotten himself or herself in major trouble yet, but who nevertheless is going to need AA in order to quit? In current AA jargon, we would sometimes call this kind of person a "high bottom" drunk. So what Fiona was asking was, were the people in that statistical table who went to AA meetings for a year and then quit going to meetings but were still sober even five years later, actually Type Three alcoholics? Or were they Type Two heavy drinkers who got sober in AA meetings, but actually would have been able to get sober all on their own anyway, just by using their own willpower? In other words, were they Type Two heavy drinkers who had been misdiagnosed as early stage Type Three alcoholics? The issue at stake is, is it EVER safe for a Type Three genuine alcoholic to quit going to meetings? If they quit going to meetings, will Type Three alcoholics ALWAYS inevitably go back to their alcoholic drinking sooner or later? The good old timers in my part of Indiana say (on the basis of their many years of experience) that Type Three genuine alcoholics will ALWAYS go back to drinking eventually if they quit going to AA meetings, with the one exception that a few do manage to use church going as a substitute for AA meetings, and can stay sober that way. Fiona's question is not some nit picking question about numbers and statistics, but a word of warning about something which could cost alcoholics their lives if they make the wrong decision. Fiona is warning all of us (based in her case of her knowledge of Irish alcoholics): do NOT assume on the basis of those 3 and 5 year survival rate statistics which were recently posted that you will have some hope of staying sober if you quit going to AA meetings. Given the fact that Fiona's Irish alcoholics and my own Hoosier alcoholics here in Indiana seem to suffer the same fate if they quit going to AA meetings, I would advise anyone reading these AAHL postings to take Fiona's warning with deadly seriousness. Her warning is simple: don't use those 3 and 5 year survival statistics to play games with your life, if you are a true alcoholic. I would add an additional warning to hers. Alcoholism is cunning, baffling, and powerful. Also patient, sneaky, and lying. Many a true alcoholic here in my part of Indiana has gone to AA meetings and stayed sober for a long time (maybe even ten years of more) until the voice of Mr. Alcoholism inside that person's head has started murmuring, "You know, I haven't had any trouble staying off the booze these past ten years, and you know, I'm not really like some of these other people in the AA meetings. I'm more intelligent than they are, have more will power and self control. I never fell as low as they fell. Maybe I'm not really an alcoholic at all. Maybe I was just a heavy drinker, you know, somebody who just got carried away sometimes. But I'm so much older and wiser now. You know, I think it would be safe now, after ten years, to go out and have a little social drink." We have a lot of retreads here in Hoosier AA who let themselves listen to that lying voice inside their heads, and went back out drinking, and then had to suffer years of misery before they finally came dragging themselves back in the doors of AA, admitting finally, "O.K., I guess that I (even I) actually am an alcoholic of some sort, the kind who needs AA meetings if I want to live instead of dying." I should also say that the people in Indiana who go back out and try it again after ten years or so, are people who tell us later on that in fact they never worked the steps, even though they went to meetings. It is particularly doing a really thorough and deep reaching Fourth Step which is vital if you want people to give you the ultimate accolade at your funeral, and say with enormous respect in their voices, "he died sober," "she died sober." So to Fiona's warning, I will add my own. Don't use those 3 and 5 year survival rate statistics which were posted to play games with your life. Keep on going to meetings. Keep up constant contact with your fellow AA members. Do a real Fourth Step and ferret out all of the resentment and fear in your life, and figure out what all your character defects are, so you won't be tempted to look down your nose at ANYBODY in an AA meeting, thinking yourself superior to that person in any way whatsoever. http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html And remember that EVEN IF someone could prove that 33-1/3 % of genuine alcoholics could eventually quit going to AA meetings and still be sober 3 years later, or even 5 years later, that is till playing Russian roulette with a six gun with four chambers loaded. And 5 years isn't 10 years or 15 years. Glenn C. South Bend, Indiana, U.S. (A REAL alcoholic, sober today ONLY by the grace of God and the help of the people in this fellowship, who is not planning on jumping out of the lifeboat, thank you!) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3008. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 10:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would add that there is a *CLINICAL* differentiation between alcohol *DEPENDENCY* and alcohol *ABUSE* and the treatment recommended is different, although somewhat similar. A comparison of the criteria outlined in the Big Book regarding the descriptions of drinkers to the clinical criteria found in the DSM-IV-TR, reveals how amazingly close the two agree with the differentiations. I would also make the distinction that meeting attendance is not the same thing as "working the program" . . . And not a requirement for either sobriety or the kind of permanent sobriety of which the Book speaks. Many people, who fit criteria for alcohol dependency ("alcoholics") go to meetings, learn how to work the program (the steps) and incorporate them into their lives as a way of life, without going to meetings forever. Such I think was the author's intent when he wrote: "AA's twelve Steps are a group of principles, spiritual in their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole." Besides, as I recall, AA is for people who wish to stop drinking . . . It doesn't really matter that they may or may not be dependent upon alcohol or "simply" abuse it . . . A desire to stop is all that matters. If indeed it is a Higher Power that keeps us sober, then simply going to meetings isn't going to work for the long haul. But, working the spiritual program in all our affairs will continue to insure sobriety . . . Even without meetings. Jon Markle 9/9/82 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3009. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Responsibility statement and the 4th International Convention From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 7:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, Yes, I knew that Al S. composed the Responsibility Statement, although I never met him. Clarence Snyder also told me about spending time with Bill in Toronto. Bill had wanted to see him, he said. I'm not surprised that Bill enjoyed the meeting and showed no hard feelings. In all their correspondence, it was always Bill who was conciliatory, etc., despite being criticized by Clarence. I believe there was some concern in AA over the fact that we had finally been criticized by a national publication; i.e., the 1963 Harper's Magazine article by Arthur Cain. If I am not mistaken, the 1965 Convention theme was that AA should take its inventory. I wasn't able to attend that year because our son Dean, now forty, chose that weekend to be born. It was very thoughtful of AA to arrange things so that I could finally attend a Toronto convention in 2005. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3010. . . . . . . . . . . . James Houck (Oxford Group) From: Emmanuel John . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 11:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was just at the house of Jim Houck the grandson of the James Houck you mentioned, (on Friday night.) I do believe that his grand father is still alive. We live in the Baltimore/Towson area of Maryland, he reports that his grandfather got sober on 12-12, the day after Bill entered Towns for the last time Peace and Happy Days Emmanuel S. John, LCSW-C _______________________________ See Message 3006 on James Houck IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3011. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Length of sobriety From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 6:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, I talked with Chauncey C. by telephone yesterday. He is now in a care home in Waterford, Mich., but is still sharp and willing to converse about his AA experience. I first met him in 1950 when I was five months sober and had moved to Pontiac, Mich., from my hometown, Norfolk, Nebr. He had nine years then, but there were members in Pontiac and Detroit who had more time. I don't think he got sober at Dr. Bob's house, but I can check that. He told me that a judge in Pontiac helped get him in touch with the AA's there in 1941. He was a blue-collar man and felt a little out of place with doctors and lawyers in the group, but that quickly changed. He and his wife Vivian were married when she was 13 or 14 and he was 15 or 16 (I must check that out!). Amazingly, they are still married and close to their 80th anniversary! That must be some kind of record. Mel Barger _______________________________ In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Diz Titcher" wrote: There was a man at the International that claimed 62 years. Diz T. _______________________________ Hi Diz, Gary here / Alkie :) I just saw that man the day before thanksgiving at a gratitude meeting that he started over 57 yrs ago, his name is Chauncey C. He is from Pontiac MI. and he will be 93 yrs old this month and also said he got sober at Dr. Bob's house. Yes he did say that he was the last one standing at A.A.'s International Convention in Toronto Cananda for the 70th anniversary of A.A. this past summer. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3012. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2006 8:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It seems to me that trying to make alcoholics different from heavy drinkers is an attempt to make black and white out of something which is most likely gray. The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that alcoholism is primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility. Physiologically alcoholics metabolize alcohol and mind altering chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of the population (in the United States, in other places it is higher or lower. It appears that the rate of alcoholism is lower in cultures that have had alcohol the longest period of time and higher in those cultures that have had it the least amount of time.) See for example Under the Influence by Milam et al. If, therefore, alcoholism is a real disease then it should be viewed as a real disease. Some diabetics can control their diabetes by diet, others by diet and oral medication and others by multiple daily injections. Each one is a "real" diabetic, it is the disease itself that is different in different people. Some milder, some more severe. Some alcoholics get sober in their teens, others in their 80's and all ages in between. Are we to decide which are real alcoholics? Logically it would seem that those in their 80's may have a milder form of alcoholism as they were able to drink longer, function and not die. The younger ones perhaps have a very severe form and therefore are unable to continue. We in AA talk a lot about spirituality and higher powers, but I think we forget about the miraculous nature of sobriety. The "spiritual awakening," the "moment of clarity," the "surrender," the "epiphany," the "emotional/spiritual/psychological bottom," the "moment of nonjudgmental awareness" or whatever name it is given...the moment when we receive the gift of the ability to not drink is what it is. Some have this moment and go to AA, some to church, some nowhere and some other places too innumerable to mentions. In AA we say "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps." However, we know that Bill had his before any steps whatever. I had mine the day before I entered a treatment center and I didn't even know what the steps were. We all have many, many stories about people's spiritual awakening and as the person who had it describes it, we see what they are talking about because it happened to us. Going to AA does not guarantee sobriety any more than not going to AA guarantees continued drinking. I came to AA for the first time in 1984 and I have been sober ever since. I went to at least 1,000 meetings in my first two years. Since that time I have never had a period of time more than a week or so that I have not gone to meetings and I generally go to 3-5 meetings per week. That doesn't necessarily keep me sober, it is just what I do. I love the people, the experience, the blending, the hope, the tears, the laughter....the whole package. Many do not do what I do. It doesn't make them better or worse or more or less likely to drink. At least that is my opinion based on my experience. Having said all of the above, I'm not sure this "Real or Fake Alcoholic/heavy drinker" is an appropriate topic for the AA HistoryLovers. I think the study is very interesting and not surprising to me, but to try and figure this out does not seem "figureoutable." There is tremendous wisdom in the phrase "You're an alcoholic when you say you are." Dave Smith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3013. . . . . . . . . . . . Chauncy C. (length of sobriety) From: Cherie'' P . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 9:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I had to reply to this one, as I too met Chauncy at the Thanksgiving Eve Gratitude meeting that Chauncy started 57 years ago. I sat in the front row and felt very honored and humbled to be able to meet this man in person. He told a few stories at the Gratitude meeting, but not about Bill W. I wonder if he has done other open talks in the past where he has spoken about these things, and where could they be purchased if the talks were taped? We do have Serenity Taping here that does alot of AA taping, not sure how long they have been around though. Gary, I was also in Toronto, and yep, Chauncy was there. But was HE standing or was someone standing in his place? In November he didnt look like he could stand up out of his wheelchair to me. Gary, email me privatley, I bet we may have met at some AA event in the area, even if we dont know we did lol Hugs Cherie' One Day At A Time DOS 04-26-01 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3014. . . . . . . . . . . . Xmas messages from Bill W. From: elodge1@peoplepc.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 7:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cherie... Actually I found quite a few ... you can access some of these at this link... http://silkworth.net/pdfBillW/pdfBillW3.html ... Happy Holidays... rick...new hampshire _____________________________ Original message from: Cherie' P I received the following Christmas message from Bill W to the fellowship in 1944. My question is, is this the ONLY year he wrote a letter of this nature? And if others exist, please provide links to them if possible. thanks Hugs Cherie' One Day At A Time DOS 04-26-01 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3015. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Spook Room at Stepping Stones, Dr. Bob and Anne From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 7:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Clarence used to tell me stories about how Bill, Bob and himself had engaged in some spooky endeavors. They invoked some esoteric mumblings and stood at the mirror watching their beards grow (I guess that's kinda like watching grass growing) and Clarence described the trio like forefathers of hippies - sitting around a room in their socks with Bill playing (I think it was) the violin and shuffling to "Mr. Sandman." Clarence never said that Anne was involved in these sessions and it appears from what he said that they were more "stag" sessions. That type of behavior (dabbling into the occult) was very popular in those days and wasn't looked upon as against any sort of mainstream religious belief. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3016. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hank P. and early AA From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 7:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just a quickie because I have to be off to work. Clarence wasn't the only salesperson - Hank was one as well as it appears there were a couple of others on and off. Hank was also married to Dorothy's sisters. Hank was very angry at Bill and AA in general. Clarence used his being a traveling salesperson gig in order to start AA meetings and attend them. Just another quick echo to what Mel stated about our dear brother Merton.... If there is anything out there to be found it will probably be Merton who will find it. I too have found Merton to be the top researcher out there. Thank you! --- greatcir@comcast.net wrote: > In 1947 Hank Parkhurst wrote a letter to Clarence > Snyder regarding their "porcelain moulding" business > complaining that Clarence was "messed up" with AA > and other things and was not working the porcelain > business. > > What was the porcelain moulding business and why was > Hank relying so heavily on Clarence to make the > sales? The letter suggests that Clarence might be > the only salesman. > > There is another letter to Clarence in 1946 where > Hank admits to drinking beer for a couple of weeks > so I assume he was still doing this in 1947. > > God Bless, > > Pete K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3017. . . . . . . . . . . . Meeting makers make it From: tsirish1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 12:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would love to know where the expression "Meeting makers make it" came from. The only reference to it that I have found was a caption to a cartoon in one of the Best of the Grapevines. Please help me find the origin of this statement (which I also believe to be erroneous). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3018. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The 1968-1974 AA comic strips online From: chris fuccione . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 7:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That's intresting I have one question. On the top of them it says that they are AL-ANON Conference Approved Literature. The one that was "IF YOUR PARRENTS DRINK TOO MUCH" and "JANE'S HUSBAND DRINKS TOO MUCH" seems like they would be An AL-ANON pieces ...... but "IT HAPPENED TO ALICE" and "WHAT HAPPENED TO JOE" are both AA Literature. Why is the AL-ANON blurb on the top of them? Chris --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Rudy890 wrote: > > Came across this old strip, a complete set of the 1968-1974 Alcoholics Anonymous comic strips. > > http://www.ep.tc/aa-comics/ > > Just Click On Each Strip After You've Read It > > Hugs > Rudy > > > PLEASE VISIT MY HOME PAGE > http://www.geocities.com/rudy849 > ============================ > rudy890@o... > http://www.cloudmark.com/?rc=9mttaa > ============================ > Consider How Hard It Is To Change Yourself > And You'll Understand What Little Chance > You Have In Trying To Changing Others IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3019. . . . . . . . . . . . James Houck (length of sobriety) From: brian thompson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 10:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gary, I met James Houck on September 2nd this year 05. He just celebrated 71 yrs of sobriety on Dec 12th. James will be 100 yrs old on Feb 21 2006. I will also be there for his birthday in Towson, MD. James doesn't claim to have the longest length of sobriety in AA, since he got sober in the Oxford Group and stayed with them for many years. He curtainly has the longest sobriety of anyone alive just not in AA. I was also at the International In Toronto. It was great seeing Chauncey with 63 yrs. This is a great site, Brian T. Camp Verde, AZ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3020. . . . . . . . . . . . James Houck and AA in Towson From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2006 4:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA meeting at Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which was recently passed on to me. James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by certain people in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from modern AA. In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the Oxford Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were participating in their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is no sign that he had any accurate inside information about how early AA actually worked with alcoholics. All he would have known was what was being said by the Oxford Group members who were hostile to the special mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the early AA people out of the Oxford Group. We already knew that. What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about James H.'s claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of being an expert witness on the way modern AA operates. James says that he has "spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences," which means that Wally P. and others have taken him around to give talks to AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of people does not give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group actually works with alcoholics. James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know anything about how a real AA meeting would operate in the modern period. JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material in the Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the way Wally has been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck to back up his own claims about the history of early AA. See http://www.aabacktobasics.com/ In response to Wally's questioning in http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsforjames h.ht\ ml [1] James Houck said: ______________________________ "Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA program of the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group program of the 1930's. AA has changed over the years -- today's program is very different from the "original." For the past 20 years, I have been speaking at AA meetings, workshops and conventions about the "original" program of recovery. My Sobriety date is 12/12/34. I am a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as did many other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard, Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with alcoholics as well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my granddaughter to AA meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already changed. It wasn't anything like the original program. While I was able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church. There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I have spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share guidance with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement home where I am living." ______________________________ When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of Maryland, at Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in Towson to see what that AA group was like, and to see how closely connected James H. actually was to the AA program there. Are the Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the United States? Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he know lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going to regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson AA accurate? What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that James H. has been making. Although James H. claims that he has attended numerous AA meetings at the Towson United Methodist Church, and is very familiar with the way their AA meetings function, JM could not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even knew who James was. He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group which was doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of people sober. It was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant, ineffectual, and demoralized people who knew nothing about AA's Historic Heritage, and who were achieving only a 1% to 3% success rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know anything about modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has been getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA. There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James H.'s testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have discovered needs to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply going to give JM's report to Kurtz as he wrote it: ______________________________ Hi, Glenn! Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James Houck, authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking my opinion about his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford Group. In the past, I have read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an authentic or accredited historian! I rely on my old friend, Ernie Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the item along to Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between the claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure in AA, yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD, Methodist Church is emphasized. I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in Bethesda, MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all of whom live in this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a meeting of what Wally presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size the old guy up in person, or at least learn a bit more first hand. On receiving my report, Ernie feels you might find this information of interest. ********* Ernie! I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to "James Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in a maiden voyage onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has provided information, and I have joined, but I haven't figured the interface out just yet. I might send the information I'm sending you now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else on the list might be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery, and I should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the nonsense. I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on Thursday, December 27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of which 8 identified themselves as "home group members." Most of the rest were young newcomers, as the meeting is a newcomers meeting, rotating weekly through discussion of the first three Steps. There were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works, Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in to give a 20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year of sobriety, and one 17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and that was it. I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the Back to Basics movement. They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former member until he recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the group. He has apparently come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one knew for sure. They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was asking about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative. The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group veteran who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know something about all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw little utility to pursuing this matter any more. My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate numbers cited for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own extensive experience in traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is clearly alive and well, at least in my own environment .... That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after Bill Wilson did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance through the Oxford Movement, is a minor curiosity. ********** I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you, again, for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for me. And I hope you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New Year. JM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3021. . . . . . . . . . . . Real alcoholics From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2005 1:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi AA History Lovers, The recent discussions on 'real alcoholics' reminded me of the following study and I thought I would share it with you. Hope it 'fits' the AA History Lovers essence. I have wondered for some years about the referral rate and criteria for referral to AA. Additionally, I have questioned the reported incidence of alcoholism in the general population. A study in 2004 that compared alcohol dependence and alcohol abuse found that up to a third of alcoholics did not abuse alcohol. That is a third of alcoholics did not drink at the damaging levels decided by health authorities (often defined as above 3 drinks a day for men and 2 drinks a day for women). If these alcoholics are not being identified by generally accepted questionnaires to identify alcohol dependence then they are not being referred for treatment or AA. The same report makes that very point. The study; Hasin DS, Grant BF. (2004) The co-occurrence of DSM-IV alcohol abuse in DSM-IV alcohol dependence. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2004 Sep;61(9):891-6. RESULTS: Among respondents with current alcohol dependence, 33.7% did not additionally meet criteria for alcohol abuse (29.0% among men and 46.1% among women). This is confirmation that what AA says; Its not what, where, how much or who with; it's the effect that alcohol has that defines alcoholism. Perhaps the 'success' rates of AA and the referral rates are being affected by healthcare workers assessing 'alcohol abuse' as alcoholism and not using the AA criteria - thus inflating referral rates to AA. An alcohol abuser (non-alcoholic) is unlikely to identify with AA members. This has all sorts of implications for perceptions of AA. The Big Book states; "To be gravely affected, one does not necessarily have to drink a long time nor take the quantities some of us have. This is particularly true of women. Potential female alcoholics often turn into the real thing and are gone beyond recall in a few years." (AA, pp 33). If the above is kept in mind perhaps we would reach some of the others who are not now being referred to AA. Robin F. Brisbane, Australia www.brieftsf.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3022. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hank P. and early AA From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2006 7:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Pete, As you probably know Clarence and Hank were brothers in law. After the stock redemption/royalty sequence Hank carried a lifelong resentment because the agreement was that only Dr. Bob would receive any proceeds from the book. Dr. Bob did not want the royalty. Bill insisted that he take it to avoid a potential claim by Hank. (Legally this last assertation by Bill does not make sense but could be convincing coming from a person with most of law school completed to someone with no legal training.) Shortly thereafter Bill asked to "borrow" Dr. Bob's royalty if he didn't need it. One of the two letters housed at GSO became public and made it onto the interernet: See http://www.aagso.org/1941/index.htm As is often the case particularly with AA History, and perhaps much of history, one document is available where the surrounding documents which establish context are not. I was fortunate enough to have read and transcribed all the documents at GSO and Stepping Stones from this era for a yet unpublished manuscript I've written. My opinion, (emphasis on the last word), is that the issue is not that Bill received a royalty, but that Hank did not. (and that Hank has a innocent living decendent that genuinely is in need presently and Bill does not). As to the "porcelain buisness" to which you inquire Hank began a buisness manufacturing Toby Mugs in the late 40's for which Clarence was a salesman. You may recall the large decorative beer mugs often sold in airport gift shops awhile back that had a pirates head as the vessel and a parrot for a handle. There were many other head/handle caricatures that being one example. The letterhead lists "Henry Parkhusrst, Sales Management, Manufacturing, 1270 Ocean Avenue, West Haven, Conn." Interestingly there is no "Inc." or "Co." after his name or the pseudonym "Henry Giffen, Fine Porcelains" on the letterhead indicating that he probably learned the legalities of such use after the failure to register the uncorporated buisness names of Henry G. Parkhurst, Inc., Honor Dealers, Stainox Inc., Sharing Inc. or, until 1940, Works Publishing Company. Note that "Giffen" is Hank's middle name. In addition to Henry Giffen, Fine Porcelains there are two other entity/people listed under Sales Management. These are, Stanley Ballard and Co, Hand Made Porcelains, and Lumen Kelsey, Sculptured Porcelains. These reflect possible other sales reps besides Clarence although the collection of correspondence indicates the former as more of a resseller. I've been told by a reliable source that the actual small manufacturing plant was near Trenton, New Jersey and was also shown a photograph of it. Hank speaks of kilns in the correspondence. The West Haven, Conn. address is a bit of an anomaly as Hank's return address and cancelled envelopes to him invarialy indicate General Mail Facility, West Orange, N.J. as his place of pickup. I doubt anyone could argue that both Hank and Clarence had somewhat abrasive personalities. This often makes their correspondence somewhat humerous, (depending, of course, on the readers sense of humor). Neither held much back. For example one letter begans: "Listen Snyder; Don't ever write me another letter like this one. I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THIS KIND OF CRAP FROM YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. This is the second time you have shot off at me like this - AND THE LAST." The passage you refer to states that Hank admits to drinking a few beers for a few weeks and that he found it negative and quit. This is the only written record I have seen of his drinking during the early 40's thru his death. Interviews years ago I had with his surviving relatives indicated multiple year periods of abstinence followed by binges. He was reportedly abstinent for the entire period of his third marriage to a Houston Oil heiress whom was the "real love of his life". She died of a lung disease and this is where he obtained the money for the $40,000 chicken coup I discussed earlier. With respect to the implication that HAnk's drinking somehow voided his rights in the book, it is necessary to remember that nobody has the right to illegally deprieve someone of their property because someone is drinking. Of course the situation which Bill found himself was that someone drinking would not be good PR for a book on how to stop. However the agreement that neither would take a royalty deprieves Hank's living relatives of a rightful inheritence. There is a solution to this issue which would cost a fraction of one years expeses paid for the present copyright litigation or alot less than one year's royalty payout to others. -merton --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > In 1947 Hank Parkhurst wrote a letter to Clarence Snyder regarding their "porcelain moulding" business complaining that Clarence was "messed up" with AA and other things and was not working the porcelain business. > > What was the porcelain moulding business and why was Hank relying so heavily on Clarence to make the sales? The letter suggests that Clarence might be the only salesman. > > There is another letter to Clarence in 1946 where Hank admits to drinking beer for a couple of weeks so I assume he was still doing this in 1947. > > God Bless, > > Pete K. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3023. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Memories of Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2006 3:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 10:08 12/24/2005 , Glenn Chessnut wrote: >Ralph's niece told me that he died because a doctor gave him an >airsickness shot with a needle that had been improperly steriziled (that >was back in the days when doctor's reused hypodermic needles over and over >again). Apparently the person on whom the doctor had used the needle the >previous time had hepatitis. They rushed Ralph to the hospital in >Owensboro, Kentucky, where one of the doctors was an AA member, and the >only physician whom Ralph trusted by now. I am old enough to have been given many shots with reused needles. It is my recollection that normal autoclaving killed almost all of the bacteria and viruses but higher temperatures were needed to kill certain ones like some forms of hepatitis and most autoclaves did not do this, so standard practice of the day did not eliminate this risk. My physician in the period of the late 50s/early 60s had an autoclave that was capable of achieving conditions that completely sterilized the needles. My point is that Fr. Pfau was not infected due to neglect per se. My understanding is that needles used on hepatitis patients were either not used again or sterilized in autoclaves capable of destroying the hepatitis vector. Tommy in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3024. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: James Houck and AA in Towson From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2006 9:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been reading these entires with some mild amusement. Having lived in the Towson area for most of my life (age 54) and having been a grateful member of AA for over 25 years, I know who this James H is but he is a non-entity to Baltimore or Towson AA. He does not go to meetings and the old timers don't know him (except by the odd story about him). I learned more about him from the Time Magazine article last year then anything else. I say God Bless him- but don't look to him for anything other than an eccentric old fellow that has some interesting stories. But he is no AA icon around here or anywhere else. Rob W. >>> glennccc@sbcglobal.net 1/3/2006 4:50 PM >>> A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA meeting at Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which was recently passed on to me. James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by certain people in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from modern AA. In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the Oxford Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were participating in their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is no sign that he had any accurate inside information about how early AA actually worked with alcoholics. All he would have known was what was being said by the Oxford Group members who were hostile to the special mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the early AA people out of the Oxford Group. We already knew that. What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about James H.'s claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of being an expert witness on the way modern AA operates. James says that he has "spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences," which means that Wally P. and others have taken him around to give talks to AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of people does not give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group actually works with alcoholics. James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know anything about how a real AA meeting would operate in the modern period. JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material in the Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the way Wally has been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck to back up his own claims about the history of early AA. See http://www.aabacktobasics.com/ In response to Wally's questioning in http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsforjames h.ht\ ml [1] James Houck said: ______________________________ "Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA program of the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group program of the 1930's. AA has changed over the years -- today's program is very different from the "original." For the past 20 years, I have been speaking at AA meetings, workshopps and conventions about the "original" program of recovery. My Sobriety date is 12/12/34. I am a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as did many other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard, Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with alcoholics as well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my granddaughter to AA meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already changed. It wasn't anything like the original program. While I was able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church. There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I have spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share guidance with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement home where I am living." ______________________________ When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of Maryland, at Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in Towson to see what that AA group was like, and to see how closely connected James H. actually was to the AA program there. Are the Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the United States? Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he know lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going to regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson AA accurate? What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that James H. has been making. Although James H. claims that he has attended numerous AA meetings at the Towson United Methodist Church, and is very familiar with the way their AA meetings function, JM could not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even knew who James was. He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group which was doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of people sober. It was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant, ineffectual, and demoralized people who knew nothing about AA's Historic Heritage, and who were achieving only a 1% to 3% success rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know anything about modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has been getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA. There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James H.'s testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have discovered needs to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply going to give JM's report to Kurtz as he wrote it: ______________________________ Hi, Glenn! Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James Houck, authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking my opinion about his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford Group. In the past, I have read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an authentic or accredited historian! I rely on my old friend, Ernie Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the item along to Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between the claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure in AA, yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD, Methodist Church is emphasized. I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in Bethesda, MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all of whom live in this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a meeting of what Wally presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size the old guy up in person, or at least learn a bit more first hand. On receiving my report, Ernie feels you might find this information of interest. ********* Ernie! I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to "James Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in a maiden voyage onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has provided information, and I have joined, but I haven't figured the interface out just yet. I might send the information I'm sending you now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else on the list might be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery, and I should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the nonsense. I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on Thursday, December 27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of which 8 identified themselves as "home group members." Most of the rest were young newcomers, as the meeting is a newcomers meeting, rotating weekly through discussion of the first three Steps. There were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works, Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in to give a 20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year of sobriety, and one 17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and that was it. I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the Back to Basics movement. They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former member until he recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the group. He has apparently come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one knew for sure. They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was asking about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative. The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group veteran who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know something about all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw little utility to pursuing this matter any more. My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate numbers cited for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own extensive experience in traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is clearly alive and well, at least in my own environment .... That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after Bill Wilson did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance through the Oxford Movement, is a minor curiosity. ********** I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you, again, for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for me. And I hope you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New Year. JM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3025. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcohol left in food after cooking From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2006 10:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA Around Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion. Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how much alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA Number 5" in Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA". Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of fairly new folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in the food, it is ALL cooked out!!!!" For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the results of that previous study? All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3026. . . . . . . . . . . . Send individual comments directly to the group member From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 5:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To the members of the AAHistoryLovers: The way the Pending Messages are displayed in the Yahoo Group system, there is no way I can forward a message to another member of the group simply by pushing a button. I would have to cut the message out, and paste it into an email on my own email system and then send that to the other group member. So if you want to contact another group member in order to comment on that person's posting, it would be greatly appreciated if you could look up the other person's email address (which is sometimes time consuming to look up, but is what I would have to do) and send your message to that person directly. I'm beginning to get overwhelmed with multitudes of messages sent in to the Pending Messages board which are in fact messages to other individual group members instead of messages for general posting. I know that in chat groups there are a lot of back and forth messages like that, but please remember that one of the central guidelines of the AAHistoryLovers is that we do not want to function as a chat group. Thanks much! Glenn Chesnut (moderator) South Bend, Indiana, USA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3027. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2006 11:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The chain of messages on the term "real alcoholic" seems to be straying away from history. There are certain terms that are likely best to avoid in this forum since they tend to lead far more to endless un-retractable debate over semantics rather than clarity. Among those tedious terms are "recovered vs recovering", "spiritual vs religious" and "real alcoholic vs problem drinker or vs whatever." Now having said that, let's try to provide a historical perspective that culminated in the 12and12 (1953) and originated in the Big Book (1935-1939). It is the matter of AA laying out the welcome mat for those prospects who were not low bottom drunks (as were the very early members). In the 12and12 essay on Step One (page 23) it states: "Alcoholics Anonymous," published when our membership was small, dealt with low-bottom cases only. Many less desperate alcoholics tried A.A., but did not succeed because they could not make the admission of hopelessness. It is a tremendous satisfaction to record that in the following years this changed. Alcoholics who still had their health, their families, their jobs, and even two cars in the garage, began to recognize their alcoholism. As this trend grew, they were joined by young people who were scarcely more than potential alcoholics. They were spared that last ten or fifteen years of literal hell the rest of us had gone through. Since Step One requires an admission that our lives have become unmanageable, how could people such as these take this Step? There are quite a few mentions of the term "real alcoholic" in the Big Book as noted below --[in brackets for emphasis]-- Page 21: But what about the --[real alcoholic]--? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink. Pages 23-24: The tragic truth is that if the man be a --[real alcoholic]--, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost control. At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it is suspected. Page 30 MOST OF us have been unwilling to admit we were --[real alcoholics]--. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death. We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed. We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no --[real alcoholic]-- ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals-usually brief-were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better. Page 31: Despite all we can say, many who are --[real alcoholics]-- are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people! Page 34: As we look back, we feel we had gone on drinking many years beyond the point where we could quit on our will power. If anyone questions whether he has entered this dangerous area, let him try leaving liquor alone for one year. If he is a --[real alcoholic]-- and very far advanced, there is scant chance of success. In the early days of our drinking we occasionally remained sober for a year or more, becoming serious drinkers again later. Though you may be able to stop for a considerable period, you may yet be a potential alcoholic. We think few, to whom this book will appeal, can stay dry anything like a year. Some will be drunk the day after making their resolutions; most of them within a few weeks. Page 35: We told him what we knew of alcoholism and the answer we had found. He made a beginning. His family was re-assembled, and he began to work as a salesman for the business he had lost through drinking. All went well for a time, but he failed to enlarge his spiritual life. To his consternation, he found himself drunk half a dozen times in rapid succession. On each of these occasions we worked with him, reviewing carefully what had happened. He agreed he was a --[real alcoholic]-- and in a serious condition. He knew he faced another trip to the asylum if he kept on. Moreover, he would lose his family for whom he had a deep affection. Page 92: If you are satisfied that he is a --[real alcoholic]--, begin to dwell on the hopeless feature of the malady. Show him, from your own experience, how the queer mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power. Don't, at this stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his drinking, tell him that possibly he can-if he is not too alcoholic. But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little chance he can recover by himself. Page 109: Two: Your husband is showing lack of control, for he is unable to stay on the water wagon even when he wants to. He often gets entirely out of hand when drinking. He admits this is true, but is positive that he will do better. He has begun to try, with or without your cooperation, various means of moderating or staying dry. Maybe he is beginning to lose his friends. His business may suffer somewhat. He is worried at times, and is becoming aware that he cannot drink like other people. He sometimes drinks in the morning and through the day also, to hold his nervousness in check. He is remorseful after serious drinking bouts and tells you he wants to stop. But when he gets over the spree, he begins to think once more how he can drink moderately next time. We think this person is in danger. These are the earmarks of a --[real alcoholic]--. Perhaps he can still tend to business fairly well. He has by no means ruined everything. As we say among ourselves, "He wants to want to stop." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- Des, Let me try my hand at answering your question. It was common in early AA to distinguish between three different kinds of drinkers. Let's call them Types 1, 2, and 3 for the purposes of this discussion. Sometimes they were called (Type 1) "social drinkers," (Type 2) "heavy drinkers," and (Type 3) "alcoholics." Richmond Walker, in Twenty Four Hours a Day (1948), referred to the last category as "merry go round drinkers." Mrs. Marty Mann makes this same kind of distinction in the book she wrote for the National Council on Alcoholism. Our South Bend good old timer, Brownie, makes that three-fold distinction in the material about him in The St. Louis Gambler and the Railroad Man. Dr. Jellinek (and many others) tried to make distinctions of this same sort during the 1940's and 1950's. It had been noted that some alcoholics were clearly drinking alcoholically from the time they took their very first drink. The first time they had a chance at a bottle (even if they were just teenagers), they drank themselves rip roaring drunk, and they just kept on drinking that way from that point on. But other alcoholics started out as social drinkers, and then gradually began drinking more and more, until finally after enough years they crossed some invisible line, and became clearly and unambiguously alcoholic drinkers. Psychologists who study alcoholism and public health agencies which are concerned with alcoholism have found that they also have to make some kind of distinction between people who are drinking a lot, and people who are alcoholics. You cannot measure the amount of alcohol that is consumed and use that to determine who is a heavy drinker and who is an alcoholic. All sorts of fancy definitions have been dreamed up by psychologists, medical doctors, and so on, to try to identify where you make the division between Type Two heavy drinkers (or "alcohol abusers" or whatever term you're using) and Type Three genuine alcoholics. Let us not get into quarrels about what precise terminology to use here, because there have been a variety of different terms used over the years. But as far as I can see, the basic distinction historically has been a simple one. A Type Two heavy drinker (or alcohol abuser, or whatever) who is given sufficient reason to stop drinking, will be able to stop on his own simply by using will power. Maybe his doctor puts him on a heart medication and tells him that he has to take the medication to save his life, and that this medication cannot be mixed with alcohol in the system. Or something in his life puts him in a situation where he will get in enormous trouble if he does not quit. So he simply grits his teeth, and stops drinking. Just like that. Permanently. A Type Three true alcoholic will find that he cannot stop drinking on his own, by his own will power, no matter how serious the consequences are going to be. His wife says that she will leave him, his employer says that he will fire him, the judge says that he will give him twenty years in prison the next time he drives drunk, his doctor says that he will be dead within a year if he keeps on drinking. But no matter what it is, a true alcoholic will STILL keep drinking, in spite of all that, if he is trying to do it by himself by his own willpower. If you listen to tape recordings of the good old timers, you will find numerous examples of alcoholics whose drinking was destroying them totally, who still could not stop on their own, simply by using will power. One thing which muddies the waters nowadays, is that (beginning with Dr. Jellinek's famous chart back in the 1940's) the experts on alcoholism have assembled data on the way that the disease of alcoholism progresses, where they can spot the symptoms of Type Three chronic alcoholism much earlier than they could in the 1930's and 1940's. So nowadays we can sometimes identify a person as definitely a chronic alcoholic early in the progression of the disease, and send that person off to AA, and save that person an awful lot of misery and heartbreak, EVEN THOUGH in early AA they would not have allowed that person to attend AA meetings because they would have felt that this person's drinking did not qualify him or her to be a "true alcoholic" yet. So is this particular individual a Type Two heavy drinker who is getting himself or herself in trouble, and maybe needs some encouragement to quit doing that from a psychotherapist or someone like that? Or is this particular individual a Type Three alcoholic EARLY in the progression of the disease, who hasn't gotten himself or herself in major trouble yet, but who nevertheless is going to need AA in order to quit? In current AA jargon, we would sometimes call this kind of person a "high bottom" drunk. So what Fiona was asking was, were the people in that statistical table who went to AA meetings for a year and then quit going to meetings but were still sober even five years later, actually Type Three alcoholics? Or were they Type Two heavy drinkers who got sober in AA meetings, but actually would have been able to get sober all on their own anyway, just by using their own willpower? In other words, were they Type Two heavy drinkers who had been misdiagnosed as early stage Type Three alcoholics? The issue at stake is, is it EVER safe for a Type Three genuine alcoholic to quit going to meetings? If they quit going to meetings, will Type Three alcoholics ALWAYS inevitably go back to their alcoholic drinking sooner or later? The good old timers in my part of Indiana say (on the basis of their many years of experience) that Type Three genuine alcoholics will ALWAYS go back to drinking eventually if they quit going to AA meetings, with the one exception that a few do manage to use church going as a substitute for AA meetings, and can stay sober that way. Fiona's question is not some nit picking question about numbers and statistics, but a word of warning about something which could cost alcoholics their lives if they make the wrong decision. Fiona is warning all of us (based in her case of her knowledge of Irish alcoholics): do NOT assume on the basis of those 3 and 5 year survival rate statistics which were recently posted that you will have some hope of staying sober if you quit going to AA meetings. Given the fact that Fiona's Irish alcoholics and my own Hoosier alcoholics here in Indiana seem to suffer the same fate if they quit going to AA meetings, I would advise anyone reading these AAHL postings to take Fiona's warning with deadly seriousness. Her warning is simple: don't use those 3 and 5 year survival statistics to play games with your life, if you are a true alcoholic. I would add an additional warning to hers. Alcoholism is cunning, baffling, and powerful. Also patient, sneaky, and lying. Many a true alcoholic here in my part of Indiana has gone to AA meetings and stayed sober for a long time (maybe even ten years of more) until the voice of Mr. Alcoholism inside that person's head has started murmuring, "You know, I haven't had any trouble staying off the booze these past ten years, and you know, I'm not really like some of these other people in the AA meetings. I'm more intelligent than they are, have more will power and self control. I never fell as low as they fell. Maybe I'm not really an alcoholic at all. Maybe I was just a heavy drinker, you know, somebody who just got carried away sometimes. But I'm so much older and wiser now. You know, I think it would be safe now, after ten years, to go out and have a little social drink." We have a lot of retreads here in Hoosier AA who let themselves listen to that lying voice inside their heads, and went back out drinking, and then had to suffer years of misery before they finally came dragging themselves back in the doors of AA, admitting finally, "O.K., I guess that I (even I) actually am an alcoholic of some sort, the kind who needs AA meetings if I want to live instead of dying." I should also say that the people in Indiana who go back out and try it again after ten years or so, are people who tell us later on that in fact they never worked the steps, even though they went to meetings. It is particularly doing a really thorough and deep reaching Fourth Step which is vital if you want people to give you the ultimate accolade at your funeral, and say with enormous respect in their voices, "he died sober," "she died sober." So to Fiona's warning, I will add my own. Don't use those 3 and 5 year survival rate statistics which were posted to play games with your life. Keep on going to meetings. Keep up constant contact with your fellow AA members. Do a real Fourth Step and ferret out all of the resentment and fear in your life, and figure out what all your character defects are, so you won't be tempted to look down your nose at ANYBODY in an AA meeting, thinking yourself superior to that person in any way whatsoever. http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html And remember that EVEN IF someone could prove that 33-1/3 % of genuine alcoholics could eventually quit going to AA meetings and still be sober 3 years later, or even 5 years later, that is till playing Russian roulette with a six gun with four chambers loaded. And 5 years isn't 10 years or 15 years. Glenn C. South Bend, Indiana, U.S. (A REAL alcoholic, sober today ONLY by the grace of God and the help of the people in this fellowship, who is not planning on jumping out of the lifeboat, thank you!) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3028. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2006 7:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A response to Message 3012 from Dave Smith (pmds at aol.com) From (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) An interesting point but I take issue with your primary premise that alcoholism is a purely physical disease like diabetes. All of what you say is true as Dr. Silkworth points out in his Opinion and the "phenomenon of craving" which develops after the first drink. However you teach a diabetic to adjust his insulin level and diet and "problem solved". If you tell the alcoholic just not to take the first drink (after hospitalization) because thats where the phenomenon begans and problem solved right??????? Its common sense, no first drink no problem????? You tell someone allergic to strawberries, no strawberries and they'll usually avoid them, same thing with booze, right????? The real problem with alcohol is in the mind, NOT THE BODY. Its the insanity of being without any ability not to take the first drink after a period of sobriety. Its the mental obsession not the compulsion that requires 15 month long trips to the treatment center. Thats what the chapter "There is a Solution" tells us. Much of what you say is true. Bill never says AA is the only way. Anyone who reads the Jerry McAuley books from the late 1800's knows that people were recovering from alcoholism thru spiritual experience long before AA. And Bill also supported research into any medical research that would help. If you look closely at his life you'll see that Bill formally divorced AA in 1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE TRYING TO HELP THE ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID NOT WORK. Thats really what the sub-secret LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal. Its also what the enormous work he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin B-3 and its effect on Alcoholism. I'm not a big Bill Wilson flagwaver. Please understand that I have serious issues. But with alcoholism its not a football game between the AA's and the non-AA's. Its Alcoholics who have decided thats what they are (or whatever label you want to put on someone who can't stop drinking when they want to) vs. the mental obsession that somehow, someway, we'll be able to drink without the consequenses of the one way elevator ride. The easy way (my opinion) is to become like a leaf on the ground fighting nothing for a year surrounded by people who have succeeded somehow. No fight, just let the wind blow us around for awhile. (Of course this is always when the significant other we've been waiting for our entire life shows up and we entangle ourselves - or "we're just going to be friends" - or "listen, its just sex, not a relationship". We're complicated. Our minds tell us strange things which we actually believe (but nobody else does). -merton ______________________________________ In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Dave Smith pmds@a... wrote: > > It seems to me that trying to make alcoholics different from heavy drinkers is an attempt to make black and white out of something which is most likely gray. > > The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that alcoholism is primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility. Physiologically alcoholics metabolize alcohol and mind altering chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of the population (in the United States, in other places it is higher or lower. > > It appears that the rate of alcoholism is lower in cultures that have had alcohol the longest period of time and higher in those cultures that have had it the least amount of time.) See for example Under the Influence by Milam et al. > > If, therefore, alcoholism is a real disease then it should be viewed as a real disease. > > Some diabetics can control their diabetes by diet, others by diet and oral medication and others by multiple daily injections. Each one is a "real" diabetic, it is the disease itself that is different in different people. Some milder, some more severe. > > Some alcoholics get sober in their teens, others in their 80's and all ages in between. Are we to decide which are real alcoholics? Logically it would seem that those in their 80's may have a milder form of alcoholism as they were able to drink longer, function and not die. The younger ones perhaps have a very severe form and therefore are unable to continue. > > We in AA talk a lot about spirituality and higher powers, but I think we forget about the miraculous nature of sobriety. The "spiritual awakening," the "moment of clarity," the "surrender," the "epiphany," the "emotional/spiritual/psychological bottom," the "moment of nonjudgmental awareness" or whatever name it is given...the moment when we receive the gift of the ability to > not drink is what it is. > > Some have this moment and go to AA, some to church, some nowhere and some other places too innumerable to mentions. In AA we say "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps." However, we know that Bill had his before any steps whatever. I had mine the day before I entered a treatment center and I didn't even know what the steps were. We all have many, > many stories about people's spiritual awakening and as the person who had it describes it, we see what they are talking about because it happened to us. > > Going to AA does not guarantee sobriety any more than not going to AA guarantees continued drinking. I came to AA for the first time in 1984 and I have been sober ever since. I went to at least 1,000 meetings in my first two years. Since that time I have never had a period of time more than a week or so that I have not gone to meetings and I generally go to 3-5 meetings per week. That doesn't necessarily keep me sober, it is just what I do. I love the people, the experience, the blending, the hope, the tears, the laughter....the whole package. Many do not do what I do. It doesn't make them better or worse or more or less likely to drink. At least that is my opinion based on my experience. > > Having said all of the above, I'm not sure this "Real or Fake > Alcoholic/heavy drinker" is an appropriate topic for the AA HistoryLovers. I think the study is very interesting and not surprising to me, but to try and figure this out does not seem "figureoutable." There is tremendous wisdom in the phrase "You're an alcoholic when you say you are." > > Dave Smith > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3029. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcohol left in food after cooking From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 2:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I got this guide online: http://www.betterendings.org/Recipes/cookal.htm Cooking With Alcohol When cooking with beer or alcohol, does all of the alcohol evaporate? No. The following chart should be helpful. PREPARATION METHOD / AlcoholRetained No heat application, immediate consumption 100% No heat application, overnight storage 70% Alcohol ingredient added to boiling liquid, and removed from heat 85% Flamed 75% Baked, approximately 25 minutes, alcohol ingredient on surface of mixture (not stirred in) 45% Baked/simmered, alcohol ingredient stirred into mixture 15 minutes / 40% 30 minutes / 35% 1 hour / 25% 1.5 hours / 20% 2 hours / 10% 2.5 hours / 5% source: Minnesota Nutrition Council Newsletter What can I substitute if a recipe calls for beverages with alcohol? The best, but not always the easiest solution, is to find another recipe without alcohol that will fill the need. If the beer or wine is a major ingredient in your recipe, or if a large quantity is called for, it makes sense not to attempt a substitute. The results could be unpleasant. In such a case, look for another recipe. Often the alcohol required will be a small amount, such as a couple of tablespoons, and in this case there are several substitutions: In recipes having plenty of seasonings, plan water may be substituted. Both the alcohol and a substitute may be omitted if the liquid isn't needed for a gravy or sauce. When cooking with fish, an equal amount of bottled or fresh clam or fish stock may be substituted. Just remember, bottled clam juice and some fish stocks are high in salt. Some people use white grape juice with fish. Other substitutes include chicken or beef broth Juice such as lemon, lime, apple or cranberry are all possibilities. Reprinted from Fall 99 Issue Byerly's Bag Doug B. JOHN e REID wrote: > The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA > Around Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion. > > Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how > much alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA > Number 5" in Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA". > > Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of > fairly new folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in > the food, it is ALL cooked out!!!!" > > For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the > results of that previous study? > > All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Addiction recovery Recovery from Addiction recovery program addiction center Christian Alcoholics addiction recovery anonymous > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > + Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3030. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Alcohol left in food after cooking From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 8:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the name of this AA Grapevine article or when it was published? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of JOHN e REID Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:00 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Alcohol left in food after cooking The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA Around Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion. Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how much alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA Number 5" in Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA". Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of fairly new folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in the food, it is ALL cooked out!!!!" For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the results of that previous study? All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3031. . . . . . . . . . . . DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2006 11:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If we are going to discuss the distinction that is made between "Alcohol Abuse [305]" and "Alcohol Depencence [303.9]" it is useful to look at the diagnostic definitions in what is called "DSM-IV" or "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4" Here are two references to those definitions. Note: NIAAA (National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism) only classifies "Alcohol Depencence" as "Alcoholism" The two diagnoses are mutually exclusive. ---------------------- ---------------------- http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/alcohol/diagnosis.shtml Diagnosis Friends and family members of the alcoholic are often the first to notice problems and seek professional help. Many times, the alcoholic does not realize the severity of the problem or denies it. Some signs cannot go unnoticed, such as loss of a job, family problems, or citations for driving under the influence of alcohol. Dependence is indicated by symptoms such as withdrawal, injuries from accidents, or blackouts. The American Psychiatric Association has developed strict criteria for the clinical diagnosis of abuse and dependence. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual -- IV (DSM-IV) defines abuse as: * A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by one (or more) of the following, occurring within a 12-month period: 1. recurrent substance use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, home (e.g., repeated absences or poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related absences, suspensions, or expulsions from school; neglect of children or household) 2. recurrent substance use in situations in which it is physically hazardous (e.g., driving an automobile or operating a machine when impaired by substance use) 3. recurrent substance-related legal problems (e.g., arrests for substance-related disorderly conduct) 4. continued substance use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the substance (e.g., arguments with spouse about consequences of intoxication, physical fights) * The symptoms have never met the criteria for Substance Dependence for this class of substances. [DSM-IV, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4. Washington DC: American Psychiatric Association (AMA). 1994.] Most often, abuse is diagnosed in individuals who recently began using alcohol. Over time, abuse may progress to dependence. However, some alcohol users abuse alcohol for long periods without developing dependence. Dependence is suspected when alcohol use is accompanied by signs of the following: * Abuse * Compulsive drinking behavior * Tolerance * Withdrawal DSM-IV defines dependence as: * A maladaptive pattern of substance use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period: 1. tolerance, as defined by either of the following: o a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect o markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of substance 2. withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following: o the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance o the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms 3. the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended 4. there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use 5. a great deal of time is spent in activities to obtain the substance, use the substance, or recover from its effects 6. important social, occupational or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use 7. the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g., continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption) [DSM-IV, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4. Washington DC: American Psychiatric Association (AMA). 1994.] ---------------------- ---------------------- http://www.fpnotebook.com/PSY91.htm # DSM-IV Alcohol Abuse (1 or more criteria for over 1 year) 1. Role Impairment (e.g. failed work or home obligations) 2. Hazardous use (e.g. Driving while intoxicated) 3. Legal problems related to alcohol use 4. Social or interpersonal problems due to alcohol # DSM-IV Alcohol Dependence (3 criteria for over 1 year) 1. Tolerance (increased drinking to achieve same effect) 2. Alcohol Withdrawal signs or symptoms 3. Drinking more than intended 4. Unsuccessful attempts to cut down on use 5. Excessive time related to alcohol (obtaining, hangover) 6. Impaired social or work activities due to alcohol 7. Use despite physical or psychological consequences # References 1. (1994) DSM-IV, APA, p. 181-3 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3032. . . . . . . . . . . . Green Pond, NJ From: Russ S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2006 3:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear History Lovers, I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey. I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start? Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3033. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 6:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of defining guideline for alcoholism one must remember the following: The DSM does state that a person can remain in total remission from alcohol dependence and continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit the criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence. Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does not define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous and the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent. From: Mitchell K. (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) ________________________ Note from the moderator: Mitchell K. is one of our best AA historians, and an expert on the history of early AA in the Cleveland area, where there were more AA members at one point in early AA history than in either Akron or the New York area. He is responding here to two earlier messages. Message 2973 "Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates" from Ernest Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu)contained an interesting recent study by social scientists of how people who have been treated for alcoholism are doing 3 and 5 years afterwards, measured against how many AA meetings they have been attending. Message 3031 "DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) " from (ny-aa at att.net) laid out one of the standard definitions of alcoholism used by social scientists, in this case the one currently used by psychiatrists and psychotherapists in the U.S. for diagnostic purposes, to help understand how modern social scientists would determine which people in a group whom they were studying were actually alcoholics. This can help us to understand the kinds of criteria used in the study in Message 2973. Mitchell K. in this present message (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) points out that NEITHER the social scientists who made the 3 and 5 year study, NOR the psychiatrists who wrote the DSM, were employing exactly the same kinds of definitions of "real alcoholism" that are given in various places within the historic heritage of Alcoholics Anonymous. Mitchell's warning is important, and right on target. The AAHistoryLovers is not the right kind of forum for attacking the social scientists for not using AA definitions. We have worked hard over the years to try to keep the AAHL from becoming just a chat group (there are already plenty of AA chat groups on the internet). Those members of the AAHL who are AA members simply need to remember that the social scientists are not necessarily using AA definitions, as Mitchell K. points out, and that any AA members reading articles written by social scientists will need to take that into account in evaluating that data. Glenn C. (moderator) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3034. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: James Houck and AA in Towson From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 7:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Unfortunately, I believe there is a much more serious and disconcerting side to James H and his affiliation as the poster child for the "Back to Basics" (B2B) organization. B2B propagates revisionist AA history in a classic example of manufacturing an idyllic scenario portraying the AA program of Recovery in the "old days" and then manufacturing a contrasting scenario bemoaning that "today" it's all different and has gone downhill. B2B engages in four practices that I find very troubling in that they present fiction as history. The B2B practices are: (1) portrayal of the figurative as the literal (2) broad brush portrayal of the exception as the rule (3) portrayal of simple associations as established cause and effect and (4) portrayal of James H's duration of dry time to be the equivalent of his degree of accuracy and breadth of knowledge. B2B claims that AA is currently experiencing a 5% (or less) success rate. This is supposedly in contrast to a 50% (they used to claim 75% or 90%) "success rate" that AA allegedly enjoyed in the 1940s and 50s. Their absurd assertion is unquestioningly being cited on web sites, in literature, in academic papers and TV as established fact when it is pure fiction. The assertion that AA enjoyed 50%, 75% or 90% "success rates" in the 1940s and 50s is derived solely through selective semantic citation (which is deficient in context) and is not statistically demonstrated. There may have been some place at some time with that kind of success, but to use it to paint a broad-brush overall projection of AA is ridiculous. Outside of a small number of instances, when AA was quite small, there is no viable and verifiable body of records or statistics maintained that would provide any type of reliable basis for stating any type of overall AA "success rate." The same holds true today in terms of asserting the erroneous 5% "success rate." The folks that make these kinds of fatuous claims are driven by an agenda, not facts. All too often, those making the claims do so as a disingenuous null hypothesis that that someone else must disprove rather than them substantiating their claims with factual evidence. As a solution to their manufactured doom and gloom scenario, B2B advocates the rather unremarkable hypothesis that Step choreography is the determining factor in successful recovery. This is based on James H's expert insight via the following gem of wisdom and experience on B2B's web site: "James provided Wally with three missing concepts from the "original" program that allowed him to successfully "fly the plane." They were: (1) the verbal Fourth Step (Moral Inventory), (2) the expanded Ninth Step that included forgiveness as well as restitution, and (3) the written Eleventh Step (Prayer and Meditation). He supplied Wally with a four-page pamphlet, written in 1938 by a person who had attended Oxford Group meetings with Dr. Bob Smith. This pamphlet, titled "How to Listen to God," provided clear, concise directions on how to conduct two-way prayer." B2B first asserted that a verbal 4th Step should be done instead of a written one. They later embellished this profound thesis with suggesting the use of a particular "assets and liabilities list" together with sponsor participation. This, along with a choreography change to take the "forgiveness" the Big Book suggest doing in the 4th Step and migrate it to the 9th Step (without passing GO or collecting $200), and then squeeze in a little "quiet time" in the 11th Step and, voila, your "success rates" soar from 5% to a 10-fold exponential increase to %50% or higher. To state that both the choreography and success rate fantasies are built on meager threads is it putting it mildly. Even more meager are any solid demonstration of facts. The notions are based on anecdotal hearsay or the tortuous twisting of semantic nuance. To give credence to this theater of the absurd, B2B has elevated and shamelessly promoted James H to demigod status in terms of his presumed qualifications to offer expert commentary on how AA and the Oxford Group functioned 70 years ago. The sad fact is that quite a number of AA members, who have no way of knowing any better, have been swallowing it hook, line and sinker. Over the years, the B2B web site has asserted some rather creatively evolving "connections" that were supposed to have existed between James H and Bill W (even a mention of Dr Bob). The first was that "James attended Oxford Group meetings with Bill Wilson in Frederick, MD from 1935-1937." James H lived in Maryland, Bill W lived in NY (a mere 244 miles distant one-way today via interstate highways). During the great economic depression (which accounts for the latter half of the 1930s) and during World War II (which accounts for the beginning half of the 1940s) travel in the US was no simple matter, even from Maryland to NY. I'm not sure whether B2B's use of the word "together" is supposed to be interpreted to mean "at the same place," "at the same time" or both. In any event, it gives the impression that James H and Bill W were frequently in contact with one another when I don't believe any such thing actually occurred. The next is a claim on B2B's web site that "Although James stayed in the Oxford Group, he did have contact with the early A.A. fellowship through Sam Shoemaker, a mutual friend of his and Bill Wilson's. Sam Shoemaker was the rector of the Calvary Church in New York City, which was the United States headquarters of the Oxford Group." This probably took some real doing on James H's part in that Sam Shoemaker left the Oxford Group in 1941 and evicted the Oxford Group from Calvary Hall in NYC. So it would be interesting to find out just how James H worked through Sam Shoemaker. In response to a question of whether James H was a member of AA, the answer was "Yes, he is as much a member of A.A. as anyone else who has a desire to stop drinking. However, for James the compulsion to drink was successfully removed on December 12, 1934. He has not had a drink of alcohol or taken a mood altering substance (including nicotine) since that day. ... James has an A.A. home group. It meets on Thursday nights at the Towson, MD Methodist church." In addition to the above is a statement that James H "was a member of the Oxford Group in the 1930's and is a member of Moral Re-Armament today." So he has a home group where no one knows the "longest living" sober member and he's a member of Moral Rearmament, which today is called "Initiatives of Change" (perhaps James hadn't noticed). so it's anything but clear how James H actually fits into the total picture. In 1961, a book was published about a man named Ferdinand Waldo DeMara Jr. The title of the book was "The Great Imposter." I can't help but get the same sense that a similar book could be written about B2B and James H. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob White Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:07 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] James Houck and AA in Towson I have been reading these entires with some mild amusement. Having lived in the Towson area for most of my life (age 54) and having been a grateful member of AA for over 25 years, I know who this James H is but he is a non-entity to Baltimore or Towson AA. He does not go to meetings and the old timers don't know him (except by the odd story about him). I learned more about him from the Time Magazine article last year then anything else. I say God Bless him- but don't look to him for anything other than an eccentric old fellow that has some interesting stories. But he is no AA icon around here or anywhere else. Rob W. >>> glennccc@sbcglobal.net 1/3/2006 4:50 PM >>> A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA meeting at Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which was recently passed on to me. James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by certain people in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from modern AA. In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the Oxford Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were participating in their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is no sign that he had any accurate inside information about how early AA actually worked with alcoholics. All he would have known was what was being said by the Oxford Group members who were hostile to the special mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the early AA people out of the Oxford Group. We already knew that. What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about James H.'s claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of being an expert witness on the way modern AA operates. James says that he has "spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences," which means that Wally P. and others have taken him around to give talks to AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of people does not give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group actually works with alcoholics. James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know anything about how a real AA meeting would operate in the modern period. JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material in the Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the way Wally has been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck to back up his own claims about the history of early AA. See http://www.aabacktobasics.com/ In response to Wally's questioning in http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsfo rjamesh.html James Houck said: ______________________________ "Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA program of the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group program of the 1930's. AA has changed over the years -- today's program is very different from the "original." For the past 20 years, I have been speaking at AA meetings, workshopps and conventions about the "original" program of recovery. My Sobriety date is 12/12/34. I am a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as did many other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard, Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with alcoholics as well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my granddaughter to AA meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already changed. It wasn't anything like the original program. While I was able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church. There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I have spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share guidance with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement home where I am living." ______________________________ When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of Maryland, at Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in Towson to see what that AA group was like, and to see how closely connected James H. actually was to the AA program there. Are the Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the United States? Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he know lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going to regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson AA accurate? What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that James H. has been making. Although James H. claims that he has attended numerous AA meetings at the Towson United Methodist Church, and is very familiar with the way their AA meetings function, JM could not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even knew who James was. He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group which was doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of people sober. It was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant, ineffectual, and demoralized people who knew nothing about AA's Historic Heritage, and who were achieving only a 1% to 3% success rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know anything about modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has been getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA. There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James H.'s testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have discovered needs to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply going to give JM's report to Kurtz as he wrote it: ______________________________ Hi, Glenn! Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James Houck, authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking my opinion about his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford Group. In the past, I have read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an authentic or accredited historian! I rely on my old friend, Ernie Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the item along to Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between the claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure in AA, yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD, Methodist Church is emphasized. I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in Bethesda, MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all of whom live in this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a meeting of what Wally presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size the old guy up in person, or at least learn a bit more first hand. On receiving my report, Ernie feels you might find this information of interest. ********* Ernie! I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to "James Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in a maiden voyage onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has provided information, and I have joined, but I haven't figured the interface out just yet. I might send the information I'm sending you now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else on the list might be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery, and I should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the nonsense. I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on Thursday, December 27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of which 8 identified themselves as "home group members." Most of the rest were young newcomers, as the meeting is a newcomers meeting, rotating weekly through discussion of the first three Steps. There were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works, Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in to give a 20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year of sobriety, and one 17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and that was it. I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the Back to Basics movement. They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former member until he recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the group. He has apparently come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one knew for sure. They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was asking about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative. The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group veteran who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know something about all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw little utility to pursuing this matter any more. My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate numbers cited for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own extensive experience in traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is clearly alive and well, at least in my own environment .... That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after Bill Wilson did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance through the Oxford Movement, is a minor curiosity. ********** I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you, again, for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for me. And I hope you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New Year. JM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> AIDS has a woman's face. Help women to protect themselves. http://us.click.yahoo.com/VHwV5B/TREMAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3035. . . . . . . . . . . . Early Triennial Survey Reports (?) From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 8:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have collected the Triennial A.A. Membership Survey pamphlets (P48) from the 1983 "The A.A. Member" thru the "2004 Membership Survey." I doubt any of you will be able to send me the actual pamphlets but I would appreciate help getting the contents the 1968, 1971, 1974, 1977, and 1980 Triennial Survey results in whatever form is available. For direct e-mail to me: sendto:ny-aa@att.net Thanks. ______________________ En2joy! Tom En2ger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3036. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 8:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks. As a clinician, I measure the "problem" by NOT how much or how often a person drinks, but rather, the consequences . . . What happens when alcohol is taken into the body? If there is significant disruption in any one area of a person's life (can we say "unmanageable"?), then there is a problem. A "heavy drinker" may function without any problems. Where as a very light or occasional drinker (social?) may experience distinct difficulties that impacts their life in negative ways, not attributable otherwise to any other thing than the use of alcohol -- yet they continue to drink. I believe the DSM-IV-TR is pretty clear about this definition and is not dependent upon a specific "amount" or "frequency" as criteria for diagnosis. This fits with your summary of the noted passages from the AA literature. Jon Markle Raleigh > From: ArtSheehan (ArtSheehan at msn.com) > Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:21:14 -0600 > To: > Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates > > The chain of messages on the term "real alcoholic" seems to be > straying away from history. There are certain terms that are likely > best to avoid in this forum since they tend to lead far more to > endless un-retractable debate over semantics rather than clarity. > Among those tedious terms are "recovered vs recovering", "spiritual vs > religious" and "real alcoholic vs problem drinker or vs whatever." > > Now having said that, let's try to provide a historical perspective > that culminated in the 12and12 (1953) and originated in the Big Book > (1935-1939). It is the matter of AA laying out the welcome mat for > those prospects who were not low bottom drunks (as were the very early > members). > > In the 12and12 essay on Step One (page 23) it states: > > "Alcoholics Anonymous," published when our membership was small, dealt > with low-bottom cases only. Many less desperate alcoholics tried A.A., > but did not succeed because they could not make the admission of > hopelessness. > > It is a tremendous satisfaction to record that in the following years > this changed. Alcoholics who still had their health, their families, > their jobs, and even two cars in the garage, began to recognize their > alcoholism. As this trend grew, they were joined by young people who > were scarcely more than potential alcoholics. They were spared that > last ten or fifteen years of literal hell the rest of us had gone > through. Since Step One requires an admission that our lives have > become unmanageable, how could people such as these take this Step? > > There are quite a few mentions of the term "real alcoholic" in the Big > Book as noted below --[in brackets for emphasis]-- > > Page 21: But what about the --[real alcoholic]--? He may start off as > a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard > drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose > all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink. > > Pages 23-24: The tragic truth is that if the man be a --[real > alcoholic]--, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost control. At a > certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a > state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely > no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically > every case long before it is suspected. > > Page 30 > > MOST OF us have been unwilling to admit we were --[real alcoholics]--. > No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his > fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers > have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could > drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will > control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every > abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. > Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death. > > We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that > we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion > that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed. > > We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control > our drinking. We know that no --[real alcoholic]-- ever recovers > control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but > such intervals-usually brief-were inevitably followed by still less > control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible > demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type > are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period > we get worse, never better. > > Page 31: Despite all we can say, many who are --[real alcoholics]-- > are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of > self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves > exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is > showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face > and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we > have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people! > > Page 34: As we look back, we feel we had gone on drinking many years > beyond the point where we could quit on our will power. If anyone > questions whether he has entered this dangerous area, let him try > leaving liquor alone for one year. If he is a --[real alcoholic]-- and > very far advanced, there is scant chance of success. In the early days > of our drinking we occasionally remained sober for a year or more, > becoming serious drinkers again later. Though you may be able to stop > for a considerable period, you may yet be a potential alcoholic. We > think few, to whom this book will appeal, can stay dry anything like a > year. Some will be drunk the day after making their resolutions; most > of them within a few weeks. > > Page 35: We told him what we knew of alcoholism and the answer we had > found. He made a beginning. His family was re-assembled, and he began > to work as a salesman for the business he had lost through drinking. > All went well for a time, but he failed to enlarge his spiritual life. > To his consternation, he found himself drunk half a dozen times in > rapid succession. On each of these occasions we worked with him, > reviewing carefully what had happened. He agreed he was a --[real > alcoholic]-- and in a serious condition. He knew he faced another trip > to the asylum if he kept on. Moreover, he would lose his family for > whom he had a deep affection. > > Page 92: If you are satisfied that he is a --[real alcoholic]--, begin > to dwell on the hopeless feature of the malady. Show him, from your > own experience, how the queer mental condition surrounding that first > drink prevents normal functioning of the will power. Don't, at this > stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss > it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his > own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his > drinking, tell him that possibly he can-if he is not too alcoholic. > But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little > chance he can recover by himself. > > Page 109: Two: Your husband is showing lack of control, for he is > unable to stay on the water wagon even when he wants to. He often gets > entirely out of hand when drinking. He admits this is true, but is > positive that he will do better. He has begun to try, with or without > your cooperation, various means of moderating or staying dry. Maybe he > is beginning to lose his friends. His business may suffer somewhat. He > is worried at times, and is becoming aware that he cannot drink like > other people. He sometimes drinks in the morning and through the day > also, to hold his nervousness in check. He is remorseful after serious > drinking bouts and tells you he wants to stop. But when he gets over > the spree, he begins to think once more how he can drink moderately > next time. We think this person is in danger. These are the earmarks > of a --[real alcoholic]--. Perhaps he can still tend to business > fairly well. He has by no means ruined everything. As we say among > ourselves, "He wants to want to stop." > > Cheers > Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3037. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" From: Jim . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 1:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "... Bill formally divorced AA in 1955." This is erroneous information. Bill was involved in AA at many and various levels until he died. He was writing for the AA Grapevine until 1970. He died in January 1971. The following articles were written in December 1955 and December 1970, respectively. _____________________________ The Finest Gift of All Christmas, 1955 Volume 12 Issue 7 December 1955 EACH of us in AA has received the gift of sobriety. All of us have found a new usefulness and most of us have found great happiness. This adds up to the gift of life itself--a new life of wondrous possibility. What then are we going to do with this great gift of life? Because our experience has taught us, we are quite sure that we know. We shall try to share with every fellow sufferer all that has been so freely given us. We shall try to carry AA's message to those who need and want it, wherever in the world they may be. We shall daily re-dedicate ourselves to the God-given truth that "It is by self-forgetting that one finds; it is by giving that one receives." For us of AA, this is the Spirit of Christmas. This is the finest gift of all. Lois joins me in our warmest greetings. May the New Year of 1956 be the greatest time of giving and of receiving that we in AA have ever known. Bill W. Copyright (c) The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1955). Reprinted with permission. --------------------------------------------------------------- Christmas Message Volume 27 Issue 7 December 1970 GRATITUDE is just about the finest attribute we can have, and how deeply we of AA realize this at Christmastime. Together, we count and ponder our blessings of life, of service, of love. In these distraught times, we have been enabled to find an always-increasing measure of peace within ourselves. Together with all here at AA's General Service Offices, Lois joins me in warmest greetings to each and all of you, and me share our confident faith that the year to come will be counted among the best that our Fellowship has ever known. Bill W. Copyright (c) The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1970). Reprinted with permission. --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mertonmm3" wrote: > If you look closely at his life you'll see that Bill formally divorced AA in 1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE TRYING TO HELP THE ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID NOT WORK. Thats really what the sub-secret LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal. Its also what the enormous work he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin B-3 and its effect on Alcoholism. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3038. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Alcohol left in food after cooking From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 11:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have saved an article titled "Food Science" published in Science News v. 136 11/11/89 reporting on the annual meeting of the American Dietetic Association in Kansas City, MO. It states in part: "Though simmering a pot roast at 185 deg.F for 2 1/2 hours removed 95% of the red wine added, 25 minutes of baking at 375 deg.F retained 45% of the dry sherry in scalloped oysters." Other 'stics quoted are similar to the other article posted. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3039. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcohol left in food after cooking From: Liz Barrett, True Function of Virtue . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 5:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you for this information. Just FYI: This data was initially established by FDA research; a study was subsequently published in the April 1992 edition of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association (JADA). I was able to find the citation on PubMed, but JADA issues prior to 1993 are not available online. If anyone would like to read the study at a library, the citation is: J Am Diet Assoc. 1992 Apr;92(4):486-8. The authors are: Augustin J, Augustin E, Cutrufelli RL, Hagen SR, Teitzel C. [Department of Food Science and Toxicology, Food Research Center, Moscow, ID 83843.] -- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug B." wrote: > > I got this guide online: > http://www.betterendings.org/Recipes/cookal.htm > > > Cooking With Alcohol > > When cooking with beer or alcohol, does all of the alcohol evaporate? > > No. The following chart should be helpful. > > PREPARATION METHOD / AlcoholRetained > > No heat application, immediate consumption 100% > > No heat application, overnight storage 70% > > Alcohol ingredient added to boiling liquid, and removed from heat 85% > > Flamed 75% > > Baked, approximately 25 minutes, alcohol ingredient > on surface of mixture (not stirred in) 45% > > Baked/simmered, alcohol ingredient stirred into mixture > 15 minutes / 40% > 30 minutes / 35% > 1 hour / 25% > 1.5 hours / 20% > 2 hours / 10% > 2.5 hours / 5% > > source: Minnesota Nutrition Council Newsletter > > What can I substitute if a recipe calls for beverages with alcohol? > > The best, but not always the easiest solution, is to find another recipe > without alcohol that will fill the need. If the beer or wine is a major > ingredient in your recipe, or if a large quantity is called for, it > makes sense not to attempt a substitute. The results could be > unpleasant. In such a case, look for another recipe. > > Often the alcohol required will be a small amount, such as a couple of > tablespoons, and in this case there are several substitutions: > > In recipes having plenty of seasonings, plan water may be substituted. > Both the alcohol and a substitute may be omitted if the liquid isn't > needed for a gravy or sauce. > > When cooking with fish, an equal amount of bottled or fresh clam or fish > stock may be substituted. Just remember, bottled clam juice and some > fish stocks are high in salt. Some people use white grape juice with > fish. > > Other substitutes include chicken or beef broth > > Juice such as lemon, lime, apple or cranberry are all possibilities. > > Reprinted from Fall 99 Issue Byerly's Bag > > > Doug B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3040. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 7:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That's a pretty wild claim. Can you site the page and reference for this, please (using the DSM-IV-TR, which is the most current edition). I've always used the two books as mutually complementary. I have never found any incongruence between the two approaches with diagnostics or treatment approaches. But, I'm willing to learn something new . . . . Thanks, Jon > From: "Mitchell K." > Reply-To: > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:15:01 -0800 (PST) > To: > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence > (Alcoholism) > > PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of > defining guideline for alcoholism one must remember > the following: The DSM does state that a person can > remain in total remission from alcohol dependence and > continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit the > criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence. > Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does not > define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the > criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous and > the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent. > > From: Mitchell K. > (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3041. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholism and genetics From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2006 5:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 12:49 1/2/2006 , Dave Smith wrote: ____________________________ The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that alcoholism is primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility. Physiologically alcoholics metabolize alcohol and mind altering chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of the population (in the United States, ____________________________ I have seen this assertion many times over these last two decades, but I have never seen a citation from the scientific literature affirming it. Could someone provide a citation? Thanks for your post. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3042. . . . . . . . . . . . Sixth Tradition stories From: Larry . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2006 9:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Where might I find more about how the 6th Tradition of non-affiliation came to pass. Some of those stories in the 12 and 12 are pretty entertaining. Bill W. says "...most alcoholics are bankrupt idealists." Does that phrase pop up anyplace else? Thanks, Larry in NM. _____________________________________ Tradition Six: "An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3043. . . . . . . . . . . . NCADD and ASAM From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2006 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No doubt the misinformation they put out is confusing to some people. However, AA cannot have an opinion on it. On the other hand, NCADD (the national council on alcoholism and drug dependence) http://www.ncadd.org and ASAM (the American Society of Addiction Medicine) composed of physicians dedicated to the field of Addiction Medicine http://www.asam.org are the two lead organizations regarding public education and advocacy on alcoholism. Their mission is to promote understanding of the illness and they have the most scientifically reliable statistics. I suggest wherever possible to direct people to their websites. There will always be whirling dervishes. Best thing to do is - let 'em whirl!. Rob W. ---------------------------------- >>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 1/7/2006 7:02 PM >>> Unfortunately, I believe there is a much more serious and disconcerting side to James H and his affiliation as the poster child for the "Back to Basics" (B2B) organization. B2B propagates revisionist AA history in a classic example of manufacturing an idyllic scenario portraying the AA program of Recovery in the "old days" and then manufacturing a contrasting scenario bemoaning that "today" it's all different and has gone downhill .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3044. . . . . . . . . . . . Second Tradition (long and short) From: HJFree . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2006 10:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long form? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3045. . . . . . . . . . . . genetic models for alcoholism - citations from scientific literature From: dayatatime1950 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2006 11:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All - The scientific literature abounds with research results regarding the desease models for alcoholism. You can find excellent reviews of these results written for general audiences in two books (both available from Amazon.com): Under the Influence : A Guide to the Myths and Realities of Alcoholism (Paperback)by Milam and Ketchum and Beyond the Influence : Understanding and Defeating Alcoholism -- by Katherine Ketcham, et al; Paperback by Ketchum et. al. The second book is fairly recent and covers information reported since the first book came out in the late 1970s. Neither qualifies as a citation from the scientific literature but both are well researched and cite leading references. If you have access to a university library you might look at: M. Heilig and M. Egli "Models for Alcohol Dependence: A Clinical Perspective" in "Drug Discovery Today: Disease Models" Vol 2, No. 4, 2005. I can provide this article as a pdf file to any interested members of this group. It contains 45 citations to recent scientific publications and will be a good starting point for anyone interested in delving into the (voluminous) primary scientific literature covering this subject. Regards, Russ Hillard (dayatatime1950 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3046. . . . . . . . . . . . Harper Brothers printing of A.A. Comes of Age ??? From: mr.grassroots . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 11:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello! Hope this finds all well with everyone - Just wondering if anyone has any information concerning the 1957 Harper Brothers printing of Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age? Particularly trying to find out the number of these Harper's printings and any other information concerning this effort. Thany You in advance for your efforts on this search - All the Best to You and Yours - mr.grassroots IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3047. . . . . . . . . . . . James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2006 10:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jared L., Susan K., Bill H., Cheryl F., and Tommy H. -- comments on James Houck ______________________________ From: "jlobdell54" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Art, While I hold no particular brief for James Houck and none for BtoB, I should point out that Bill and Fitz did go to OG House Parties in MD (including Frederick) certainly in 1935-36 and possibly 1936-1937. But the trips they took began at Fitz's farm in Cumberstone, and while Fitz's son remembered Bill coming down and Bill and Fitz spending time together at the farm before they went off house-partying (Fitz Jr was 13-14 at the time), to the best of his knowledge no one named James Houck was ever at the house, nor did he ever hear the name. He has vivid memories of Bill and Fitz playing fiddle and banjo and singing in the parlor, with Bill singing Northern songs and Fitz singing Southern songs. He remembers Jim B and Jim's cousin Churchy --but no James Houck. He could of course have attended House Parties where Bill and Fitz were present -- probably did -- but not with them in any strong sense of the word with. -- Jared Lobdell ______________________________ From: "Susan Krieger" (susank at qis.net) James Houck came into the Baltimore AA office about 15 years ago or so. I don't remember the exact year. His grandson is a member of AA. He wanted to post his sobriety anniversary and would have made his sobriety older than 1935 or the beginning of AA. He said that he attended the Oxford Group. He may have just started at that time to attend our local meetings. We would not list his sobriety date to be older than AA. He has listed his name a couple of times. I have had several calls about who was he. No one in this area knew JH. I was at a Convention where in a count down he took away being the oldest member of AA from our well known members. When he was in the Office I asked him if he had ever had a drinking problem. His answer to me was "I had an honesty problem." Susan K. ______________________________ From: billherold1017@aol.com (billherold1017 at aol.com) My name is Bill H. from Area 29 Maryland. As chairperson of the archives, I interviewed James Houck for ten hours. The only real thing I got out of the interview is that he knew Bill W and Fitz M. ( Our Southern Friend) from going to Oxford group meetings in Frederick, Maryland. Bill would come down to Fitz's house outside of Annapolis and they would drive to Frederick, Maryland. James Houck never mentioned a thing about being a recovering alcoholic in AA and to my recollection of the tape, never attended AA His only claim to fame is to be one of the only living people to know Bill and Fitz All he talked about was the Oxford Group and he really did not have much real regard for AA. Bill H ______________________________ From: "Cheryl F" (learning3legacies at cox.net) That friend of James Houck's is Wally and yes he is still alive and for what it's worth there is a grievance file through GSO about those workshops. ______________________________ From: Tommy H. (recoveredbygrace at yahoo.com) Several years ago I attended Wally`s Back to the Basics one day workshop in Wilmington,NC. James H. could not appear in person, but he did address the crowd of around 100 AA men and women by teleconference from the rest home he is staying at. I have never heard James say he was an active member of AA, but I have heard him say he had spoke in numerous one day workshops hosted by Wally P. Those workshops were mostly attended by AA`s. I have copies of several tapes of some of those talks. Those talk were given in several formats, including a Christian Walk thru the steps of AA. James seemed more interested in teaching others about Two Way Prayer then talking about AA . Tommy H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3048. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: Rob . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2006 7:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 182 Clinton St Brooklyn heights, NY _______________________ In response to Message 3032 From: "Russ S" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 Subject: Green Pond, NJ Dear History Lovers, I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey. I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start? Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3049. . . . . . . . . . . . Crooked thinking From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2006 8:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3050. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Crooked thinking From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 11:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The thought and answer I come up with is 'because Henry P. wrote the chapter not Bill.' Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: trixiebellaa To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3051. . . . . . . . . . . . A better scientific citation regarding Genetics of Alcoholism From: dayatatime1950 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 11:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All - I have had a lot of responses to my earlier posting regarding scientific evidence of the genetics of alcoholism. As a result I have gone back to the literature and looked for a more seminal publication with a more general treatment. Truth be told, looking stuff up is kind of a hobby of mine. Anyway, I have found: "The genetics of alcoholism" Current Opinion in Genetics and Development, Volume 8, Issue 3, June 1998, Pages 282-286 Alison M Goate and Howard J Edenberg Again, I can supply anyone who is interested with a pdf file of this article if you will write to me direct at: (dayatatime1950 at yahoo.com) It is much more readable than the other article I cited previously. In it the authors state "evidence from twin, adoption and family stuides suggest alcoholism is a complex trait resulting from the action of multiple interacting genes and the environment". They go on to describe efforts to identify the specific genes that are associated with alcoholism in humans. Some progress has been made toward this goal. Regards, Russ Hillard IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3052. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 10:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sorry it took so long to reply.... Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV - TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page # is the same): (DSM IV TR web link = http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/subdep.htm Early Full Remission - This specifier is used if, for at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met (emphasis added) Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met at any time during the period of 12 months or longer (emphasis added) The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA is not about abstinence as a criteria. Mitchell > That's a pretty wild claim. > > Can you site the page and reference for this, please > (using the DSM-IV-TR, which is the most current > edition). > > I've always used the two books as mutually > complementary. I have never found any incongruence > between the two approaches with diagnostics or > treatment approaches. > > But, I'm willing to learn something new . . . . > > > Thanks, > > Jon > > > > From: "Mitchell K." > > > Reply-To: > > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:15:01 -0800 (PST) > > To: > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] DSM-IV definitions: > Abuse vs. Dependence > > (Alcoholism) > > > > PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of > > defining guideline for alcoholism one must > remember > > the following: The DSM does state that a person > can > > remain in total remission from alcohol dependence > and > > continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit > the > > criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence. > > Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does > not > > define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the > > criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous > and > > the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent. > > > > From: Mitchell K. > > (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3053. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Russ, In some photos of the Green Pond residence I can tell you that it is a one story cottage and that in the early 90's it was painted white with dark green trim. I was told by the photographer that it is in a gated community and difficult to access without knowing someone who lives there. As a first avenue of approach attending a meeting in Newfoundland or the closest town you can find and stating your objective would be a good approach. Failing that you could approach the homeowner's association but I imagine they've been approached before. Another method would be to go to the County seat and look in the records book under Chrystal. This would probably be the owner's surname. It was Horace's uncle who I believe first name was Frank. Please keep me informed of your progress as this is a matter of great interest to me. -merton Another met - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Rob wrote: > > 182 Clinton St > Brooklyn heights, NY > > _______________________ > > In response to Message 3032 > > From: "Russ S" > Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 > Subject: Green Pond, NJ > > Dear History Lovers, > > I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey. > > I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start? > > Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3054. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 2:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their period of "living around." Horace C loaned them his summer cottage or bungalow. It got too cold that fall and they moved on. "Pass it On" 215 ff "Lois Remembers" 125 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3055. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 12:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow). It got too cold that fall and they moved on. "Pass it On" 215 ff "Lois Remembers" 125 It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3056. . . . . . . . . . . . Where were the Wilsons'' living? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2006 2:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Russ asked: "I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones" Dear Russ, Bill and Lois had to vacate there lovely home at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn Hts. in April of 1939. Between then and moving into the Bedford Hills residence they lived at nearly 50 places (P. 214 - Pass It On), including the 24th Street Clubhouse. But at last, in 1941, while living with friends in Chappaqua, NY, just north of the city, they were offered, and accepted, the great deal on the Bedford Hills house (Page 259 of "Pass It On" ). When asked how they accomplished living so many different places, Bill understated, "we were invited out to dinner a lot!" The NJ Area Archives presented a great display at the Toronto International Convention last year - this would be a great source of information for you. Hope this helps, Bob S. Indiana Dear History Lovers, I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey. I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start? Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3057. . . . . . . . . . . . alcohol content grapevine article From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2006 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII About Alcoholism - Alcoholism Information, Research, and Treatment What's Not Cooking? Volume 47 Issue 3 August 1990 Many of these items are contrary to AA philosophy. Their publication here does not mean that the Grapevine endorses or approves them; they are offered solely for your information. Don't blame Julia Child for leading you astray: We all were convinced that the alcohol in the sherry she so liberally added to dishes would cook away, with only the wine's flavor left behind. But now, it turns out, we can't have our brandy and eat it too, because alcohol, as recent research reveals, has tremendous staying power. At the request of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, food scientist Evelyn A. Augustin of Washington State University in Pullman, along with her husband, Jorg A. Augustin of the Food Research Center at the University of Idaho in Moscow, recently tested six recipes to determine the fate of the alcohol called for. Their results, reported at the latest annual meeting of the American Dietetic Association, were a big surprise to everyone. They found that the burgundy in pot roast Milano, for example, doesn't completely disappear even after two and a half hours of simmering on the stove; that a dish of scalloped oysters, baked at 375 degrees for 25 minutes, retains 45 percent of the alcohol in the dry sherry used; that Grand Marnier sauce, which is removed from the heat when the called-for liqueur is added, gets hot enough to lose only 15 percent of its alcohol. Especially surprising, though, was what happened--or didn't happen--to the brandy in the cherries jubilee. The recipe calls for dark sweet cherries to be mixed with corn-starch and heated in a chafing dish to thicken. One quarter of a cup of brandy is then ignited in a separate pan and poured over the cherries. But even this intense flaming process, the Augustins discovered, burned off no more than 25 percent of the alcohol. They tested the recipe several times, and on each try the flame died, while 75 percent of the alcohol survived. Lears Don't listen to the people in AA; Listen to the AA in people. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3058. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Seiberling''s Children From: whanny@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 10:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anybody know if Henrietta Seiberling's children were present when Bill W and Dr Bob met for the first time? I've heard Bob Smith Jr say many times that he was the last person living who was present on that day, but I thought that Henrietta had a couple of small children. Thanks, Whanny ____________________________ From the moderator: I heard Henrietta Seiberling's son speak at the National Archives Workshop at Akron, Ohio, shortly before his death. Gail LaC., who started that series of excellent annual workshops, could tell us the exact date. Henrietta's son was a U.S. Representative, who went to Tip O'Neill and enlisted his aid in getting approval from the Russians (via backdoor unofficial channels) for AA people to come over and start the first AA groups in the Soviet Union. That was an important part of the prehistory of the establishment of AA in Russia, which is not usually known. Dr. Bob's son Smitty, a really fine man, lived quite a few years longer than Henrietta's son. I am sure that at the time you heard him say he was the last survivor that this was in fact the case. But I would be interested in anything the members of the group know about Henrietta's children, because my only knowledge comes from hearing her son speak that one time. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3059. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Second Tradition (long and short) From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 6:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the same. Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern" was redundant with the long form of tradition 9, that the phrase be dropped from the long form of tradition 2. ----- Original Message ----- From: HJFree Subject: Second Tradition (long and short) Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long form? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3060. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 5:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son, former Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in AA. I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob met. I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would have been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long Island. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3061. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 12:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The correct name is Horace Chrystal. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3062. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 7:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 23:21 1/13/2006 , ny-aa@att.net wrote: //The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money to pay for a moving van .... Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned them his summer cottage .... It is unlikely that such a cottage would have survived this long.// Not so quick, here. I would note that my family's camp on Lake Memphremagog in Northern Vermont was bought by my grandfather when my mother, born in 1913, was a pre-schooler, and I can tell you it is still in excellent shape as are many of the neighboring cottages of similar vintage. One has to take care of them, but they are still very livable. Tommy H in Baton Rouge . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3063. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 11:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My family vacationed at Green Pond for generations, usually for weeks in the summer, and from what a pre-teenager can remember, I recall that our various rented cottages (bungalows) were built in the earliest quarter of the twentieth century. Old stoves, attic fans, all wooden bungalows, etc. Green Pond is about a mile long, shaped like a rectangle, with a large Lodge-plus-Hotel at one end (that building should still be standing, too, unless it burnt down since 1960...). Most all of the cottages had no garages, just a driveway between them for cars. Its US Post Office looked like something out of the wild west (plenty of fodder for kids games), a small, single-room building that still had a horse hitch in front of it. There were many single-lot homes at the water's edge around the lake's perimeter, and most likely are now part of the 'gated' community, of course with updated homes. The Lodge was a set of beautiful white Adirondack-style of buildings (think of green painted Adirondack chairs around a long, curved veranda) but I also remember it as unoccupied during the summers my family rented cottages there. Other relatives had stayed at the Lodge in earlier times. It was one site of many adventures that a 4 to 7-year old and his brothers could create...and Green Pond was where my swimming got better and I grew to love bodies of water. Probably foreshadowed my later love of bodies of distilled spirits! If a summer cottage that Horace provided Lois and Bill that 1939 summer was around the same location on Green Pond, "bungalow" is a fitting description of something that my parents rented 15 years later. rick t. --- Original Message ----- From: ny-aa@att.net To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Green Pond, NJ The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow). It got too cold that fall and they moved on. "Pass it On" 215 ff "Lois Remembers" 125 It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3064. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 12:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The entire diagnostic is about using the substance, alcohol. The criteria you cite do not exclude the substance. I venture to say this is one reason why untrained laypersons should not be using clinical works to back up their arguments. Taking out of context, one can use sentences from just about any form of literature to make it appear that the entire volume says something quite the opposite of what is intended. Many people do the same thing with the Big Book . . .. Not only do I think your argument fails, in fact, I asked several clinicians, some of which were responsible for writing the DSM-IV-TR, about this question and they were incredulous that any accredited clinician would make such a claim. Jon Markle Raleigh > From: "Mitchell K." > Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:23:20 -0800 (PST) > To: > Subject: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) > > Sorry it took so long to reply.... > Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV - > TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page # > is the same): (DSM IV TR web link = > http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/subdep.htm > > > Early Full Remission - This specifier is used if, for > at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no > CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met > (emphasis added) > > Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if > none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been > met at any time during the period of 12 months or > longer (emphasis added) > > The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not > drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria > for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA > is not about abstinence as a criteria. > > > > Mitchell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3065. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 8:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John Seiberling's demise is news to me (the NE Ohio Area Archivist) and, I think, to him. He spoke at the Sept. 25-27, 1998 Third Annual Nat'l AA Archives Workshop and was very much alive in April 2002 when he received an award from the Nat'l Park System. This copyright 2005 article speaks of him in the present tense: http://www.akronworldaffairs.org/newsletter/features/seiberling.html Cursory Googleing shows nothing more recent and I am sure his demise would. So rumors of his demise would seem to be greatly exaggerated. ___________________________ Bob, Profuse apologies from the moderator for passing along some very inaccurate information. I am glad, because I heard him speak in 1998, and he is a really fine man, whom I greatly admire. At least you and Mel B. caught my goof before John read it! As you said in your Mark Twain quote in your last line, it would have been like the famous case where Mark Twain (still very much alive) was amazed to read his own obituary in a newspaper. My wife Sue once said to me, "The problem with you, Glenn, is that you ARE right 93% of the time." I responded to her by saying, "No, the problem with me is the other 7% of the time, where I end up being the last person to figure it out." I always ask everyone in the fellowship (and also in the AAHistoryLovers) to remember the 7% rule at all times when you're listening to me talk. Once more it has been proved to be a valuable warning indeed (grin). Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3066. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Long Form of Second Tradition From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 3:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would be very interested to know where the recent contributor gained the information that "Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern" is in the original (long) form of the Second Tradition, as well as the original (long) form of the Ninth. On the Ninth there is no doubt, but I really would like to see the evidence on the Second. In the April 1946 Grapevine ("Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition") the passage is not there. In "Traditions Stressed in Memphis Talk" (October 1947 Grapevine) it is not there. In "Tradition Two" (January 1948 Grapevine) it is not there. In the form in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (1958), which actually dates from (roughly) 1950, it is not there. I have found no evidence for its inclusion in Two until the so-called short form. In all these cases mentioned (except of course for the write-up specifically on Tradition Two), the phrase is in Tradition Nine, as we know. I am hoping this contribution was not merely a guess. -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3067. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Second Tradition (long and short) - (and addenda) From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 10:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The statement in message 3059 regarding Traditions 2 and 9 is incorrect. The long form of the second Tradition never contained any mention of "Our leaders are but trusted servants - they do not govern." Also the initial version of the long form of Tradition 9 did not contain the term "they do not govern." The April 1946 Grapevine contained an article by Bill W titled "Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition" (re "Language of the Heart" pgs 20-24). The article provided AA with the initial version of the "long form" of the Traditions. A December 1947 pamphlet titled "AA Tradition" also contained the same wording. Both the short and long form of the Traditions have undergone changes from their original wording. Pinning down the dates when these changes occurred is no trivial matter (and a bit exasperating to find source reference details). The original long form of Tradition 9 contained the ending statement "All such representatives are to be guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in AA are but trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real authority from their titles. Universal respect is the key to their usefulness." This was later changed to add "they do not govern" after " ... authority from their titles." The November 1949 Grapevine contained the initial version of the "short form" of the Traditions (re "Language of the Heart" article "A Suggestion for Thanksgiving" pgs 95-96). The November 1949 Grapevine issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for the forthcoming Cleveland Convention in 1950. The wording of the second Tradition was expanded to include the sentence "Our leaders are but trusted servants - they do not govern." (Note: "AA Comes of Age" pg 213, states that the short form was drafted in "1947 or thereabouts"- it was more likely early 1949). What caused this addition to the short form of Tradition 2 (and later addition to the long form of Tradition 9)? I can only surmise. From 1946 on, after the first publication of the Traditions, there was friction (it grew to be rather intense) between Bill W and the Alcoholic Foundation Board Trustees regarding Bill's ideas for establishment of the General Service Conference (re "AA Comes of Age" pgs 208-214). Dr Bob was not very keen on the idea either. The appearance of the "Our leaders are but trusted servants ..." sentence in the short form may well have been a product of the friction but I cannot confirm it with a direct source reference. Two wording changes were subsequently made to the November 1949 version of the short form of the Traditions: "primary spiritual aim" was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6, and "principles above personalities" was changed to "principles before personalities" in Tradition 12. However, the November 1949 wording of the short form of the Traditions was adopted and adapted by Al-Anon Family Groups in September 1952 (re "Lois Remembers" pgs .177-178). The Traditions were approved at AA's 15th anniversary and 1st International Convention which took place at Cleveland, OH from July 28-30, 1950. Bill W chronicled the proceedings in a September 1950 Grapevine article titled "We Came of Age" (re "The Language of the Heart" pgs 117-124 also "AA Comes of Age" pg 213). The Traditions meeting was held in the Cleveland Music Hall. Bill W was asked to sum up the Traditions for the attendees. He did not recite either the long or short form. Instead, he paraphrased a variation of the long form. Following Bill's summation, the attendees adopted the 12 Traditions unanimously by standing vote. I cannot as yet determine the specific points in time when the wording changes to the short and long form of Traditions took place. I believe it occurred with the publication of the 12and12 in 1953 but I need access to a first printing 12and12 to confirm it. If anyone can tell me the if the wording of Traditions 6 and 12 in a first printing 12and12 is the same as they are today I'd be most grateful. If that's the case, then today's wording (short and long form) of the Traditions was Conference-approved in 1953 with the publication of the 12and12. The version of the long form of the Traditions as we know them today appeared in an appendix to the second edition Big Book printed in 1955. One oddity, previously mentioned in the AAHL forum, was that the 2nd edition Big Book Traditions appendix initially contained the wording of the short form as they were printed in the Grapevine in November 1949. There has been no subsequent posting as yet to AAHL saying in what printing the appendix was changed to reflect the short form version as worded today. One final bit of information - a number of members erroneously believe that Tradition 3 once contained the word "honest" and that it was removed from the Tradition by the Conference. It's not true. The word "honest" never appeared in either the long or short form of Tradition 3. The term comes from the Foreword to the first edition Big Book and was later included in the initial version of the AA Preamble in the June 1947 Grapevine. It was the AA Preamble that was changed by the Conference in 1958 to remove the word "honest." The way the Conference Advisory Action was framed can give the erroneous impression that Tradition 3 was changed. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kimball Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:58 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Second Tradition (long and short) At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the same. Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern" was redundant with the long form of tradition 9, that the phrase be dropped from the long form of tradition 2. ----- Original Message ----- From: HJFree Subject: Second Tradition (long and short) Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long form? Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3068. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Corporations? From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all: help needed on below: //The following are all CORPORATIONS: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.; the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.; and the Alcoholics Anonymous Grapevine, Inc. They are service organizations and corporations whose purpose and existence is to serve the Fellowship. In effect, they are temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown away and Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist. Historically speaking, what group or body of AA members had the authority to form these three corporations? How would they have to be called together if they ever wished to vote on dismantling or discarding these corporations? Is provision made for dismantling and discarding any of these corporations in the Twelve Concepts, and who is given the power to take this action in the Twelve Concepts?/ Thanks, servus, Charlie B. "Charlie Bishop Jr." = (bishopbk at comcast.net) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3069. . . . . . . . . . . . The only AA censure motion? From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all: more help needed: //In the Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of A.A., 1951-2004 edition, p. 147, we read that in 1995 a recommendation that "the proposal to censure the General Service Board" was "dismissed. (Trustees)." the censure motion was signed by 10 GSC Delegates. What was the background for this censure move? Was this censure motion a reaction to the change in the Charter on Article 2?// thanks all, servus, Charlie B. "Charlie Bishop Jr." = (bishopbk at comcast.net) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3070. . . . . . . . . . . . AAWS legal attacks From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII //From "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) We went through a period a few years back when AAWS was going after anyone who used the circle and triangle logo, and trying to sue them for trademark infringement. This was defeated in the courts. One of the reasons was that circle and triangle logos had been used for years by all sorts of organizations, including some prohibitionist organizations in the period before AA came along. This has all been discussed in detail in past messages in the AAHistoryLovers. Recently I have had items (old books and pamphlets and memorabilia) which I had put up for sale on eBay removed because of protests made to eBay by AAWS, simply on the grounds that "AA" or "Alcoholics Anonymous" showed up somewhere on the item, as part of a book title or somewhere on the item. Has anyone else had items removed by eBay because of AAWS complaints? Please call or email me directly if you have had this happen to you: "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) phone 304.242.2937 I am trying to assemble enough material to work out a history of how this issue has developed in AA. Also, what information can the members of the group give me on cases where an internet website or AA chat room has been threatened or removed by AAWS? What is the history of this issue? Although the Big Book concordance issue seems to be dead now, and is no longer being fought over, some of the earlier attacks by AAWS were on concordances to the Big Book which were posted online, on the grounds apparently of supposed copyright infringement. Historically speaking, have there been issues other than claims of copyright infringement involved in any of these attacks on websites and chat rooms? Again, if you would call or email me directly, this would help me in writing the historical article I am working on. "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) phone 304.242.2937// Thanks all, servus, Charlie B. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3071. . . . . . . . . . . . An AA apology? From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi again...more help needed... //From "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC Final Report apologies or both? Thanks. My email address is (bishopbk at comcast.net) Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?// Again thanks, servus, Charlie B. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3072. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 4:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Yes, From my transcriptions of Lois diary the reference to Horace C. was a reference to Horace Chystal or "Chrys" as Lois refered to him. After living with the Parkhursts for a short time immediately after leaving 182 Bill and Lois moved to the Greenpond bungalow. Although Lois' diary made reference to "leaving Greenpond for good" keep in mind that this was an unedited diary without the option of seeing into future events. This bungalow was used many times over the next several years by Bill and Lois, more than any other place. Lois did not know she'd be returning when she wrote this first diary entry. As of the early 1990's the bungalow was still there according to a resident who spent considerable time tracking it down. This is the most discussion I've seen to date regarding the Green Pond bungalow. I have enough of a visual retention of the 20 or so photos I once had to be able to identify it. Homes back then didn't all look the same and the number of older homes in Greenpond was supposedly not large. Please advise, -merton --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, ny-aa@a... wrote: > > The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W > and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street > without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their > period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C > loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow). > It got too cold that fall and they moved on. > > "Pass it On" 215 ff > "Lois Remembers" 125 > > It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved > early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a > cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked > might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace > Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3073. . . . . . . . . . . . 100 Hundred Men and Women? From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 6:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40 stories in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in AA at the time the book was published. Sincerely, Jim F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3074. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On my visit to the Gate House in Akron last June I recall a framed printing in the small library where Bill first met with Dr. Bob. I think it says Henrietta's two daughters were home at the time and recalled a tall thin man with big feet who reminded them of a movie star when Bill came to meet and talk to Dr. Bob. As I had heard Smitty (Dr. Bob's son) talk about being the last person alive who was present when AA was formed, I asked the docent if the daughters were still alive and she thought one was but she was not sure. The house is so small it's had to imagine that Smitty and the girls did not play or talk with each other while Bill and Bob had their infamous discussion thus it would seem Smitty knew they were "present" too? Smitty and the two girls were probably close in age? Pete Kopcsak _______________________________ From the moderator: Is it possible that this is partly a dispute over definitions? Are we talking about the first time that Bill W. and Dr. Bob ever met, or are we talking about the long period which followed that initial meeting, during which Bill stayed with Dr. Bob and Anne, and they talked for hours every day about how to use this new spiritual method for working with alcoholics? The phrase "when AA was formed" could mean all sorts of things, depending on how you defined it and what perspective you were looking from: (1) the first time Bill W. and Dr. Bob met, (2) the period when Bill W. and Dr. Bob spent weeks at Dr. Bob and Anne's house figuring out how they were going to put this program together, (3) Dr. Bob's last drink after which he stayed sober to the end of his life (celebrated at Founders Day), (4) the point when they brought Bill D. into the program (which showed that they could teach it to other alcoholics),(5) the time when AA split from the Oxford Group, (6) the date and place where the first meeting was held which was called an "Alcoholics Anonymous meeting" (where Clarence Snyder insisted that he was the one who did that in Cleveland), (7) the point when "Alcoholics Anonymous" was chosen as the title of the book they were writing, or (8) from an Akron perspective, the period when the early Akron AA people were dropping by Dr. Bob and Anne's house every day and using that as their center for regular fellowship (the period when a number of the famous founders of AA in various places in the upper midwest were getting sober there). All that to one side, if any of Henrietta's surviving children were actually there at the time of Bill W. and Dr. Bob's first meeting, their memories of that evening would be extremely valuable to record. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, USA) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mel Barger" Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:25 PM Subject: Henrietta Seiberling's Children Hi All, As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son, former Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in AA. I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob met. I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would have been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long Island. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3075. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 4:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" wrote: > It was a reference to the handing over of AA from the co-founders to the fellowship and the backdrop for the Convention and the term, "AA Comes of Age". I didn't mean to convey that he abandoned AA at any time. Perhaps "divorced" was too strong a term and therefore I stand corrected. Instead, "he gave himself the space to approach the disease from angles which were precluded to AA by Tradition" would be a more accurate statement. (Step 10). Thank you for pointing this out. -merton ------------------------------------------------------------ > "... Bill formally divorced AA in 1955." > > This is erroneous information. Bill was involved in AA at many and > various levels until he died. He was writing for the AA Grapevine > until 1970. He died in January 1971. > > The following articles were written in December 1955 and December > 1970, respectively. > > _____________________________ > > The Finest Gift of All > Christmas, 1955 > Volume 12 Issue 7 > December 1955 > > EACH of us in AA has received the gift of sobriety. All of us have > found a new usefulness and most of us have found great happiness. This > adds up to the gift of life itself--a new life of wondrous possibility. > > What then are we going to do with this great gift of life? > > Because our experience has taught us, we are quite sure that we know. > We shall try to share with every fellow sufferer all that has been so > freely given us. We shall try to carry AA's message to those who need > and want it, wherever in the world they may be. We shall daily > re-dedicate ourselves to the God-given truth that "It is by > self-forgetting that one finds; it is by giving that one receives." > > For us of AA, this is the Spirit of Christmas. This is the finest gift > of all. > > Lois joins me in our warmest greetings. May the New Year of 1956 be > the greatest time of giving and of receiving that we in AA have ever > known. > > Bill W. > > Copyright (c) The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1955). Reprinted with > permission. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Christmas Message > Volume 27 Issue 7 > December 1970 > > GRATITUDE is just about the finest attribute we can have, and how > deeply we of AA realize this at Christmastime. Together, we count and > ponder our blessings of life, of service, of love. > > In these distraught times, we have been enabled to find an > always-increasing measure of peace within ourselves. Together with all > here at AA's General Service Offices, Lois joins me in warmest > greetings to each and all of you, and me share our confident faith > that the year to come will be counted among the best that our > Fellowship has ever known. > > Bill W. > > Copyright (c) The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1970). Reprinted with > permission. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mertonmm3" > wrote: > > > If you look closely at his life you'll see that Bill formally divorced AA in 1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE TRYING TO HELP THE ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID NOT WORK. Thats really what the sub-secret LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal. Its also what the enormous work he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin B-3 and its effect on Alcoholism. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3076. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: An AA apology? From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 3:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] An AA apology? A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, IWS can not sell in Canada as the BB has separate Canadian copyright and it did not expire in Canada. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3077. . . . . . . . . . . . Pronounciation of "Shoemaker" From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 8:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have always pronounced Reverend Sam Shoemakers name as "Shoe - maker" just as it is spelled. However, Clarence Snyder pronounces it as "Shoe - mocker." I would like to know the correct articulation. Any help would be appreciated. Bob S., from Indiana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3078. . . . . . . . . . . . Inscription on Dr. Bob''s Desk? From: Karen . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 10:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Someone sent me an email saying that he heard in Missouri that there was an inscription on a desk plaque of Dr. Bob that says: "The task ahead of us is never greater than the POWER behind us." I have been unable to find anything that confirms this. I did find several websites that quote what is on the plaque and it does not include the quote from above. I also found a website of quotations (http://www.gratefulness.org/mb/quotes.cfm) that credits Alcoholics Anonymous with the following: "The power behind us is never estimated greater [than] the force of the task that is ahead of us." Does anyone have any information about the source of these quotations? Thanks, Karen IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3079. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: An AA apology? From: wilfried antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 4:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From THE FORTY - FIFTH ANNUAL MEETING OF THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 1995 FINAL REPORT page (27) 28 A.A. WORLD SERVICES, INC. "copyright were brought up under new business. It was felt the literature of Alcoholics Anonymous belongs to A.A. as a whole and A.A.W.S. (US/Canada) holds these copyrights in trust for all of us The committee recommended that A.A.W.S. Inc should continue to grant exclusive licenses to one service structure per country It was suggested that future W..M.s be kept aware of problems regarding copyrights In A.A." >>snip<< Other Board Action >>snip<< Ann Warner, Gary Glynn and George Dorsey met with three representatives of Intergroup World Services, Inc (IWS) in January 1995. It was a cordial meeting, and although we did not always see eye to eye, there was an understanding on some important issues After further communications following the meeting, an understanding was reached and reported to delegates, alternate delegates. intergrourp/central offices. overseas GSOs and World Service Meeting delegates GSO/Staff Operations: The Financial Reports are >>snip<< page 42 Reports from the A.A. Grapevine Other Board Business: . Technological Challenges- >>snip<< . lWS-As a result of the meeting withIntergroup World Services (IWS) in January, considerable progress has been made on an understanding and we are very optimistic about the final outcome >>snip<< ----- Original Message ----- From: Charlie Bishop Jr. To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:36 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] An AA apology? Hi again...more help needed... //From "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC Final Report apologies or both? Thanks. My email address is (bishopbk at comcast.net) Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?// Again thanks, servus, Charlie B. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3080. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:J.H.Fitzhugh Mayo and James McCaleb Burwell From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 11:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A couple of years ago I sat on a panel which included AAHL's Nancy O.and the topic was discovering more about Fitz Mayo.The following are some of the things I discovered when researching this topic. Jimmy Burwell's sister was Marjorie and her husband was Churchill M.(not Mayo) Churchill did not drink. His best friend was Fitz Mayo.Fitz, Jimmy and Churchill all went to an Episcopal high school in Virginia .Jimmy and Churchill both served overseas in WWI.Fitz did not serve (see his story"Our Southern friend") because the war was over when he enlisted and he was sent home.When Fitz was down on his luck(drunk) Churchill gave him land in Cumberland Md where Fitz built a house.Fitz had two wives. The first was Elizabeth who became ill and was attended to by Lois Wilson. After she died, he married Arabella.Fitz and both of his wives were visited several times by Bill and Lois Wilson. Fitz did get into the service in WWII, until he got ill. He was operated on by Dr. Bob. He had a cancer and died 10/4/1943. While Fitz was sober in NY he obviously heard about Jimmy's "problem". Jimmy was staying at his mothers house and she was hiding his clothes so he couldn't go out and get drunk.He had another AA member Jackie carry the message to Jimmy. Jackie never had permanent sobriety and died of alcoholism. Fitz was AA number 3 in New York and Jimmy was AA number 5 in New York. Both got sober with the help of Bill W. Fitz believed in God ( his father was an Episcopal minister) and Jimmy did not. ( see his story "The Vicious Cycle") Jimmy coined the expression "God As We Understand Him", and started AA in Philadelphia(Feb 28,1940), Wilmington,De, Harrisburg, Pa. and helped in Baltimore, Md. Jimmy insisted along with Hank P for "Higher Powered" and a "Power greater than ourselves" to be used. He was the salesman" Ed" described in the Third Tradition. It is thought that Bill took some liberties with his story to make a point. At the first open meeting of AA in Philadelphia, Fitz as well as several other New York members(including Mr. and Mrs Bill Wilson) made the trip. The date was March 6, 1940 .Jimmy returned the favor by going to Washington D.C. and helping Fitz get AA started there. Jimmy died Sept 8, 1974 and both He and Fitz are buried just feet apart in the Christ Episcopal Church in Owensville, Md.It is the same church that Fitz's father was a minister. As an observation; They were so opposite and so alike. Both had the tremendous drive and energy that was so characteristic of early members to stay sober and to "pass it on" to others. Some of what I discussed is common knowledge to history buff's,but since AAHl has members new to AA history I have included it. I apologize for the repetition. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike G. p.s. Jimmy was known as "Jimmy of Philadelphia" and wrote a can opener "Memoirs of Jimmy" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3081. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2006 7:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think it's interesting the way that the group is going about "speculating" James Houck and the things he has said and been a part of. It's almost as if he were one of the first one hundred in AA (who are no longer alive) so we are ONLY left with being able to study what they wrote and what they said on recordings, or perhaps even what they said to others. But since James is still alive, wouldn't it be better to simply contact him and ask questions of whatever is needed to be clarified instead of reading into what he has said and making judgments of scattered and incomplete information? So much criticism and accusation when a mere phone call with a few questions to a wonderful man might just set the record straight. Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3082. . . . . . . . . . . . The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2006 1:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII bout a month ago Chuck P. (no known relationship to Hank P. at this time) made available to me the 4 pages from the Sotheby's catelog where the heavily annotated manuscript that was sold for well over $1Million appeared. Having personally owned numerous handwritten documents that were given to me by Hank's living relatives and viewed numerous other of Hank's original documents at GSO, Stepping Stones and Clarence's letters from Hank now housed at Brown University, I've concluded (to my own satisfaction anyway) that except for the much later dated page signed by Bill the vast majority of the commentary was pened by Hank P. Hank had 3 different styles of handwriting, one being block letters (which I call H1) the second being a very neatly written style (which I call H2 and somewhat rare) and third a rapid scribble (which I call H3 and the most typical. On the bottom of several of the pages the initials HGP appears (Hank's initials the G. standing for Giffen). Also note that the well known Dr. Howard (See PIO) appears several times and it seems very likely that this is the manuscript lent to Dr. Howard for review. Dr. Howard was the individual who told them that the book was all wrong and they must remove the "You musts" from the book and replace it with more suggestive language. Note that my review of the Montclair City Directory from 1937-1940 revealed no Dr. Howard and its quite likely that this was a pseudonym. (also his first name is unknown and he seems to have vanished from all historical accounts of the era after the review). Jim Burwell says in his history something to the effect that he was the head psychiatrist of New Jersey, though I could not find such a position to have existed then. Any doctor at the time of the writing of the book (other than Dr. Silkworth) would be reluctant to attaching his name to this idea or book. There are references to some of the material being "too groupy" and to the Oxford Group explicitly demonstrating that there was a perception that the book should avoid such appearence.(at least by Hank). I,m not a handwriting expert but absent a great forgery I'm quite sure of my analysis of the majority of the handwriting being that of Hank. I've also only seen evidence regarding these 4 pages so it goes without saying that I have no knowlege of what appears on any of the other pages. As always anyone should feel free to challenge any of this (preferably having viewed the document or fascimiles in the above-referenced auction catelog). That such an extraorinary document should surface at this late date demonstrates that their is still original material out there that hasn't been noted by anyone. All the Best, -merton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3083. . . . . . . . . . . . God-shaped hole From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2006 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages 952, 954, 956, and 962 asked about the origins of the idea of "the God-shaped hole in the human soul." I have written a piece about this which is too long to post in the AAHistoryLovers, so I have posted it online elsewhere, and will simply give a link to it here for those who might be interested. In the language of AA spirituality, the only thing that will fill this painful void is developing God-consciousness, the sense of God's presence, which Bill W. talked about in the opening pages of the Big Book (see pages 1, 10 and 12-13). He had experienced it as a young military officer while visiting Winchester Cathedral, but had failed to realize its importance, and had turned away from it. Learning to develop God-consciousness was the central motif in much of the evangelical theology of the early twentieth century. The meditative practice of the Oxford Group's morning Quiet Time was designed in part to help us develop this awareness of the constant presence of God's power and grace and love. This kind of meditation was further developed in Richmond Walker's Twenty Four Hours a Day, where Rich (the second most published early AA author) spoke of entering the Divine Silence and the Eternal Now, where we learned to simply be still and delight in the awareness of God's peace, and let it flow in and fill our souls. Emmet Fox, whose book Sermon on the Mount was a standard piece of recommended reading among early AA people, showed us how we could use our awareness of God's presence and power as a way to heal our souls and our lives when we found ourselves embroiled in troubles of any kind, either in our external lives or within our souls.** But in this piece I talk about the ancient roots of the spiritual wisdom contained in idea that human beings are creatures who must have God in their lives in order to realize their full human potential: http://hindsfoot.org/godsha.html Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) ______________________________ As we see for example in a famous passage from Emmet Fox which is quoted in some versions (like the Detroit version) of the set of four early AA beginners lessons called the Table Mate or Table Leaders Guide: **Emmet Fox, Staying on the Beam "Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam is produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on this beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, or get his bearings in any other way. As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more. Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some sense of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if outer things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off the beam you are in danger. You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should immediately get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, claiming His Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, and that the promises in the Bible are true today. If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will reach port in safety. Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3084. . . . . . . . . . . . Update about Fitz M.wives From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 12:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I received the following from Jared L. "Hi! Shakey -- Thank you. A possible correction. Fitz and Libby were divorced in 1936-37, according to their son. Libby died, I believe, in 1984. Fitz married Arabella in 1943, when he already knew he was dying of cancer. She died in Westchester County NY in early 1972 (I think) at the age of 93 -- she was twenty years older than Fitz or Libby, and I believe she rented rooms in DC (to Fitz among others) when her husband was trying to recover. I have seen her name as Arabella or as Ruth J. -- J" Thanks, Jared for the update,Sorry for any misinformation. My information was a copy of an interview with a relative of Jimmy B. What is known is that Fitz had 2 wives .Can anyone else add to what is known about Fitz M? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3085. . . . . . . . . . . . Sam Shoemaker From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 6:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When I met him, I was introduced to him as Sam Shoemaker (not Shoe- macher). That was not long before he died. Moreover, in conversations with Episcopal clergy I have always heard him referred to as Sam Shoemaker (not -macher). -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3086. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 100 Hundred Men and Women? From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 4:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 3073 from James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) said: "I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40 stories in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in AA at the time the book was published." ______________________________ From: Arkie Koehl (arkie at arkoehl.com) In my business, advertising, this is known as "acceptable puffery" and is allowed by the Federal Trade Commission :-) Arkie Koehl ______________________________ From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) There have been several stories circulating about that. One is that because the AA members and their spouses attended gatherings together there were at least 100 people involved. Another story I was told by Ruth Hock was that Bill always liked to make the story sound better than it was. It sounded much better to round it off from 40-70 members to 100 members. I would think that there might be more stories which will surface. ______________________________ From: "mertonmm3" (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman (Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became number 2. The reason for the inflationary numbers is twofold. 1) they included the wives, and 2) they were lying. They were trying to sell the idea of 1) a book that hadn't been written, 2) about a cure to a disease that no one thought of as a disease, 3) for which there was no known solution since the dawn of time (contra - Jerry McAuley's Water Street Mission) to an audience which included the richest oil trust's philanthropic people in the world (the Rockefeller Foundation) and even more difficult, the members themselves and, 4) to sell stock subscriptions in a company that had not yet been formed, for the incredibly high price of $25 a share (with inflation I'm guessing today's = $400 - $ 500/sh.) This was called "puffing" or "salesmanship"!!! All the best, -merton ______________________________ From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) I believe it is pretty generally accepted that he was exaggerating on purpose. Either Nell Wing or Ruth Hock said that Bill never let the facts stand between him and a good story. He was promoting A.A. and the Big Book. Tommy H in Baton Rouge ______________________________ From: Jim Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) It is a nice round number. Jim ______________________________ From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com (Gotogo2002L at aol.com) Hi all Were they not referring to the first 100 drunks from the Oxford Group era? Those drunks roaming around aimlessly until the title of the BB came to life? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3087. . . . . . . . . . . . AA and Cuba From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 9:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cuba and AA Take First Step By Mike Fuller Havana, Jan 21 (Prensa Latina) After 13 years of spreading sobriety in Cuba, Alcoholics Anonymous can now count on more support from State sectors to save lives of people suffering from this incurable, progressive and lethal disease. Amid thundering applause at the opening of Alcoholics Anonymous first National Convention in Cuba, Guillermo Barrientos of the Cuban Ministry of Public Health said the door is open for cooperation between the State and AA. More than a decade in Cuba, the international self-help group has experienced prodigious growth on this island, and health authorities here are ready to extend a hand in the fight against alcoholism. Barrientos, chief of the Operative Group for Mental Health and Addictions, said to Prensa Latina "Alcoholism transcends the level of health, and must enter other sectors like the Federation of Cuban Women, Committees for Defense of the Revolution, Federation of Universities and NGO’s like Alcoholics Anonymous." "We started backwards," he explains, "with a public declaration, but now we must define our relationship," and cited a pending meeting with the Ministry of Justice to elaborate legal aspects. "We have to work on issues like technology, training and community integration," he said. The hundreds of alcoholics here in recovery with AA’s 12 Step program are grateful their experience, hope and strength is being recognized. Andy X, manager of the AA General Services Office said "It’s like a dream come true." But as the banner said at the event, the fight against alcoholism is most important for those to come. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3088. . . . . . . . . . . . Announcing outside events during AA meetings From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 5:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3089. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: An AA apology? From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 9:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Jim Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Charlie Bishop wrote: "Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?" I was at the Regional Forum in Burlington, VT. in '95 and "lawsuits" were discussed at length. Jim ______________________________ From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com (Gotogo2002L at aol.com) Hi There. Please let me know if you get the info...........what was the final result of the paper back edition? Can we in the US have it also? ______________________________ Message 3071 from "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) //A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC Final Report apologies or both? Thanks. My email address is (bishopbk at comcast.net)// ... //Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?// IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3090. . . . . . . . . . . . Smitty and Smithy From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 9:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Didn't Bill call Dr. Bob "Smithy" and the son's nickname was "Smitty"? Smitty/Smithy/Tommy in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3091. . . . . . . . . . . . Circle and Triangle From: J. Carey Thomas . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2006 6:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Folks, At an Aero show in Lantana, Florida, I observed a reconstruction of a Civil Air Patrol (CAP on the fuselage) airplane used to spot submarines off the Florida coast in the early 1940's. This plane had a circle surrounding a (solid) triangle as the logo for this operation. My informant wasn't sure of the exact dates these planes were used, but agreed that it was early in the second world war. In love of service, _\|/_ (o o) -----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey---------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3092. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2006 12:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Question on quote from Dr. Bob's Nightmare My first edition, 16th printing, Big Book states on page on page 192: "That was June 10, 1935, and that was my last drink. As I write nearly six years have passed." Of course, the Big Book was written in 1938 and 39, so only "nearly four years" would have passed when Dr. Bob wrote this article. My second edition also states six years (p. 180), but my third and fourth editions state four years (p. 180). I thought that probably this mistake had been corrected when the third edition was published in 1976, but my first edition, first printing, replica from Anonymous Press states four years! So my question is this: Did the original first printing of the first edition use the number four or six on page 192? Thank you for your research and answer. Bob S., Richmond, IN The "Anonymous press" first printing says 4 years The first edition says 6 years The second edition says 6 years! The third edition says 4 years The fourth edition says 4 years [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3093. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Quote from Dr. Bob''s Nightmare From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2006 2:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Bob, I have an original copy of the First Edition. It says, "As I write, nearly four years have passed." It's obvious that somewhere along the line, when six years had passed, somebody took the liberty of changing it. However, they went back to four years in the 3rd and 4th editions. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3094. . . . . . . . . . . . Steering Committees at the Group level From: Mike Breedlove . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2006 7:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings fellow AA History Lovers: Could you please help me understand the origins of steering committees at the group level? I checked the AAHistoryLovers archive of messages and got several "hits" for steering committee, but the references are actually to Intergroup or District Level Steering Committees, not to group steering committees. Of course I could easily have missed something. Does anyone have an idea of when the first group level steering committee might have started, in which section of the country, and why? If anyone knows anything about the history of how a steering committee started in their town or city I would be interested in hearing about it, and would be willing to compile that information for the list. Please reply to me with any information you might have, and with any documentation you might possess, to my email address, mikeb415@knology.net (mikeb415 at knology.net), not to the list as a whole. This next question is a very broad one, and perhaps to some extent unanswerable. Does anyone know if there is a steering committee being formed very early and then changing its modus operandi when the traditons appeared. Again, reply to me at my email address, mikeb415@knology.net (mikeb415 at knology.net), not to the list. Thanks very much for any assistance you might give. Peace, Mike B., Prattville, Alabama IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3095. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2006 9:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The "Printer's draft" manuscript of the Big Book was sold in June 2004 for 1.56 million dollars, through a telephone bid from California to the auction site in NYC. Bill P. of Hazelden Press verified its authenticity at the time, after his report of viewing the entire manuscript on what we know as our 'first 164 pages.' From what I have learned, this one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in February 1939---the linotype operators made the galleys of Alcoholics Anonymous from this draft. $1.56 million is a great deal of private money, but I wonder if the artifact will ever be shown to the general AA public. Such a shame! even the AA Archives at GSO stayed away from the auction fracas, with AAWS having no opinion on this outside issue: the fiscal speculation of AA archival items. The manuscript was the property of Barry L., confidant of Lois and the writer of AAWS' Living Sober in 1973. Lois gave it to him the mid-1970s and Barry's grand-nephew put it up on the auction block last year Honestly, I was saddened that the nephew never considered contributing it to the AA Archives at GSO, even with its potential tax write-off. In serenity, Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3096. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA Corporations? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2006 1:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Charlie Your assertion about AA's corporate entities that "In effect, they are temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown away and Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist" seems a bit cavalier. What I read in AA history and literature indicates very much the contrary. Given the Fellowship-wide "essential" service duties defined for these corporations (GSB, AAWS, GV) in AA's Traditions and Concepts, it would require approval of 75% of all known AA groups worldwide (in writing) to alter the Traditions and Concepts to allow them to be "thrown away" (see the last item in this posting). The practice of forming an incorporated (or equivalent) General Service Board, General Service Office, and corporate publishing entities with a corresponding General Service Conference oversight, has extended well beyond that of the US/Canada to numerous countries overseas (I believe there are more than 50). If these were all "thrown away" I doubt AA, as we know it, would long survive and would likely dissolve into a number of factions. There are so many members with intense, and intransigent, convictions on what AA "ought to be." Plus the general nature of the prevailing public rhetoric these days is so critically harsh and vitriolic toward opposing viewpoints, I really couldn't imagine what "would still exist" that would be labeled "Alcoholics Anonymous." The AA Service Manual (which can be downloaded from the aa.org web site) contains history and explanations of how the various AA corporations came to be and how they function. There is also a concise explanation in the pamphlet "The AA Group"(which can be downloaded from aa.org web site as well). First off, it would be useful to begin with the premise that the word "corporation" is neither a bad word or a pejorative. Corporations are the primary means for "separating the material from the spiritual." Incorporation has been an integral part of AA since 1938 to establish legal (i.e. lawful or official) entities that hold in trust all of AA's assets in behalf of the entire Fellowship. Those assets include literature inventories and copyrights, trademarks and logos and funds from donations and literature sales. Among the trademarks and logos held in trust are "AA" "Alcoholics Anonymous" "The Big Book" "Box 4-5-9" "The Grapevine" "GV" "Box 1980" and "La Vina" (you were seeking info on this in a different posting - re the Service Manual, Chapter 10). In Apr 1947, Bill W sent a paper to the Alcoholic Foundation titled "Our AA General Service Center - The Alcoholic Foundation of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow." It outlined a history of the Foundation and recommended implementation of a General Service Conference. Bill W wrote "In Part One of this Foundation story we saw how an informal group of early AA's and their non-alcoholic friends banded together in 1938 to spread the AA message as best they could; how this group formed The Alcoholic Foundation, and how some of them became its first Trustees. We saw how the Foundation helped Dr Bob and me through difficult years; how the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" and the AA Office came into being and how, later, the Foundation acquired ownership of the AA book. We observed that the Foundation was chosen by the Groups in 1941, as custodian of their voluntary contributions for the support of the AA General Service Office at New York. We also have learned that, more recently, the Foundation assumed a responsibility for effectiveness and integrity of THE AA GRAPEVINE and that some time ago the AA Groups designated the Foundation Trustees as the overseers of our general public relations. Then early last year, on publication of "The Alcoholics Anonymous Tradition - Twelve Points to Assure Our Future," the Trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation were named the Custodians of these traditions as well. Such has been the gradual process of evolution and common consent by which the Foundation Trustees have come to be regarded, first nationally, and now internationally, as THE GENERAL SERVICE BOARD OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS - Custodians of AA Tradition, General Policy and Headquarters Funds." In the April 1946 Grapevine article, mentioned by Bill W, titled "Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition" (which later became the long form of the Traditions) Bill acknowledged the importance of the corporate entities of the Alcoholic Foundation and Grapevine and what was then called "AA General Headquarters and today called "GSO" [I've truncated the wording for emphasis]: 4 ... no group, regional committee or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect AA as a whole without conferring with the Trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation. On such issues our common welfare is paramount. 6 Problems of money, property and authority may easily divert us from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any considerable property of genuine use to AA should be separately incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the spiritual ... 9 ... The trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation are, in effect, our General Service Committee. They are the custodians of our AA tradition and the receivers of voluntary AA contributions by which they maintain AA General Headquarters and our General Secretary at New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our overall public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principal publication, The AA Grapevine ... In April 1962 the Conference approved the "Twelve Concepts for World Service." Bill further acknowledges the importance of the corporate entities in several of the long form Concepts: III. As a traditional means of creating and maintaining a clearly defined working relation between the groups, the Conference, the AA General Service Board and its several service corporations, staffs, committees and executives, and of thus insuring their effective leadership, it is here suggested that we endow each of these elements of world service with a traditional "Right of Decision." VI. On behalf of AA as a whole, our General Service Conference has the principal responsibility for the maintenance of our world services, and it traditionally has the final decision respecting large matters of general policy and finance. But the Conference also recognizes that the chief initiative and the active responsibility in most of these matters should be exercised primarily by the Trustee members of the Conference when they act among themselves as the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous. VII. The Conference recognizes that the Charter and the Bylaws of the General Service Board are legal instruments: that the Trustees are thereby fully empowered to manage and conduct all of the world service affairs of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is further understood that the Conference Charter itself is not a legal document: that it relies instead upon the force of tradition and the power of the AA purse for its final effectiveness. VIII. The Trustees of the General Service Board act in two primary capacities: (a) With respect to the larger matters of over-all policy and finance, they are the principal planners and administrators. They and their primary committees directly manage these affairs. (b) But with respect to our separately incorporated and constantly active services, the relation of the Trustees is mainly that of full stock ownership and of custodial oversight which they exercise through their ability to elect all directors of these entities. IX. Good service leaders, together with sound and appropriate methods of choosing them, are at all levels indispensable for our future functioning and safety. The primary world service leadership once exercised by the founders of AA must necessarily be assumed by the Trustees of the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous. X. Every service responsibility should be matched by an equal service authority -- the scope of such authority to be always well defined whether by tradition, by resolution, by specific job description or by appropriate charters and bylaws. XI. While the Trustees hold final responsibility for AA's world service administration, they should always have the assistance of the best possible standing committees, corporate service directors, executives, staffs, and consultants. Therefore the composition of these underlying committees and service boards, the personal qualifications of their members, the manner of their induction into service, the systems of their rotation, the way in which they are related to each other, the special rights and duties of our executives, staffs, and consultants, together with a proper basis for the financial compensation of these special workers, will always be matters for serious care and concern. In Apr 1969 at the 19th General service Conference, Bob H, the newly chosen general manager of GSO summarized AA's service structure and the relationship of its parts "To sum up: the Board formulates policy; the Conference approves policy; and GSO implements policy." The 1976 Conference (and prior Conferences) expanded a 1955 provision of the Conference Charter to specify that any change to the Steps, Traditions or Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of the General Service Conference Charter, would require written approval of 75% of the AA Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory Action makes any change whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma). They are our "Three Legacies" of Recovery, Unity and Service, which we are supposed to pass on - not "throw away." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Bishop Jr. Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 4:30 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA Corporations? Hi all: help needed on below: //The following are all CORPORATIONS: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.; the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.; and the Alcoholics Anonymous Grapevine, Inc. They are service organizations and corporations whose purpose and existence is to serve the Fellowship. In effect, they are temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown away and Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist. Historically speaking, what group or body of AA members had the authority to form these three corporations? How would they have to be called together if they ever wished to vote on dismantling or discarding these corporations? Is provision made for dismantling and discarding any of these corporations in the Twelve Concepts, and who is given the power to take this action in the Twelve Concepts?/ Thanks, servus, Charlie B. "Charlie Bishop Jr." = (bishopbk at comcast.net) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3097. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Announcing outside events during AA meetings From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 8:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, If the dance is being put on by AA not a problem. Joe _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gotogo2002L@aol.com Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 10:54 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Announcing outside events during AA meetings Hi All Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3098. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Smitty and Smithy From: Corey Franks . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 9:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HI.. Both Sue and Smitty Docs children told me many times that that was how they were both addressed. Thats my additon here, THX. Corey F. Tom Hickcox wrote: Didn't Bill call Dr. Bob "Smithy" and the son's nickname was "Smitty"? Smitty/Smithy/Tommy in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3099. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 7:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From what I have learned, this > one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the > Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in > February 1939--- Just a quick geographical correction. The Cornwall Press was located in Cornwall, NY located in Orange County, NY. The first edition printings were done there as were several of the 2nd edition printings. The company merged with another and from what I understand, further printings were done in New Jersey. When the galleys were gone over, it was done by Bill W., Hank P., Ruth Hock and Dorothy Snyder who came up to Cornwall to go over them. As far as Barry's family giving anything to AAWS, due to a history of problems, litigation and pending litigation over royalties for Living Sober They had no desire to give AAWS anything. There was a great deal of animosity generated. I remember going over all the drafts for Living Sober which were housed in a friend's apartment in Connecticut. This friend had many of Barry's materials as well as another friend's materials which were left to him (Ron was involved with many of the private recordings of Bill W. and Bill speaking at his anniversaries in NYC - I think close to 200 of them and left them to Dennis when he passed on). I have no idea where these materials might be today (I do have some guesses). Dennis was a collector of AA memorabilia and had a small but amazing collection. There were some great "spook", LSD and vitamin B tapes but as I was only allowed to listen to portions of them, not make copies or take notes, unless they surface again, the material contained in them might be lost. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3100. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 8:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ" I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3101. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Announcing outside events during AA meetings From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 11:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gotogo asked Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall? You can do or say whatever you want but just be prepared to deal with the consequences. AA Police #242 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3102. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Announcing outside events during AA meetings From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 1:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm not sure what your question has to do with AA history, but if you are trying to find out if AA members can have diametrically opposed viewpoints and all think they are right, it's a guaranteed certainty. Alcoholics can announce whatever they want according to their group conscience. Groups are autonomous - but autonomy should not be used as a loophole to get around what the group members consider appropriate in their understanding and practice of the Traditions. Similarly, Alcoholics can decline to announce whatever they want according to their group conscience. Minorities demonstrate unity when they cooperate with the group conscience decisions of the majority. Things can get a bit dicey, and divisive, when the Traditions are viewed legalistically as opposed to being looked at as spiritual principles oriented to maintaining group unity. Many AA members like to keep announcements limited to activities directly related to AA (e.g. a meetings, service committees, conferences and conventions, etc.). Just because something is attended by AA members it does not means that it is an AA event. There is no such thing as an AA retreat, an AA golf tournament, or an AA dance although AA members as certainly free to join in such activities. Of course, all the above is only one member's viewpoint. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gotogo2002L@aol.com Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 9:54 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Announcing outside events during AA meetings Hi All Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3103. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Smitty and Smithy From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 12:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yes Bill W did use the nicknames "Smithy" and "Smitty" to distinguish between father and son. Young Bob was still called "Smitty" up to the time he passed away. Incidentally, Dr Bob was supposed to have quite a sense of humor for nicknames that he would come up with for others. Among the nicknames he had for Sister Ignatia were "Little Angel AA" and "Ig." He also liked to use jargon which would likely get him in politically incorrect hot water today (i.e. he would refer to women as a "frail"). Cheers Arthur ______________________________ To add to Arthur's list, J. D. H., the founder of the first AA group in Indiana, says (in his memoirs which he wrote many years later) that when he got sober in Akron and was over at Dr. Bob and Anne's house every day, Dr. Bob always called him "Abercrombie." Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3104. . . . . . . . . . . . RE:Announcing outside events during AA meetings From: Mark Everett . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 3:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Friends, While I think this issue has a questionable place on a forum on AA History, it has everything to do with our traditions. Tradition 6, short form states, "An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose." Now, if there is a charge for admission, an AA Dance or anything else becomes an Outside Enterprise. If it is offered as free, then it could be argued that it is not much more than an extension of the meeting, though some may hold that it is still a violation of some other traditions. I have also seen occasions where certain outside enterprises have offered "free" AA activities with an underlying purpose of promoting their recovery store, club, hospital or other services. That's called advertising, and we avoid any appearance of promoting that, too. I was taught to make any Related but still Non AA Announcements just prior to the opening of a meeting, therefore these types of announcements are not made at an AA meeting, and not appearing to be endorsed by AA ************************************************** Mark Everett 517 Cherry Hill Lane Lebanon, Ohio 45036-7608 Phone: (513) 228-0078 Cell: (513) 850-4911 eFax: (267) 851-2083 e-mail: mark@go-concepts.com ************************************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3105. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? From: Mark Everett . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 4:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, Boy, I love these types of things. I went looking through my assorted collection of Big Books and found the following from Dr. Bob's Nightmare. First Edition, 9th and 12th printings - 6 years Second Edition, 1st printing - 6 years Third Edition, 1st, 5th and 7th printing - 6 years and Third Edition, 51st printing - 4 years Third Edition (soft cover 8th printing - Sept 1988) referencing the 32nd printing (also 1988) - 4 years Fourth Edition, 1st and 8th printing - 4 years Knockoff copy of "Original Manuscript" with notes from Clarence Snyder - 4 years So, it appears to me that some editor, after the 7th printing of the 3rd edition in 1980 and prior to September 1988, decided to do the math, and returned Dr. Bob's story to a logical number of years. This is sort of like the same mystery with "these" and "those" in the 12th step. Enjoy Mark ************************************************** Mark Everett 517 Cherry Hill Lane Lebanon, Ohio 45036-7608 Phone: (513) 228-0078 Cell: (513) 850-4911 eFax: (267) 851-2083 e-mail: mark@go-concepts.com ************************************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3106. . . . . . . . . . . . AAhistory From: Emmanuel John . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 5:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Your question is one that I have dealt with a lot in my 21 years. First of all we have our 1st tradition which states that our common welfare should come before all else. Is this good for AA? It goes on to say that the Unity of our members is the primary goal as disunity would tear us apart. The nay-sayers are probably more of a force for disunity then the event could ever be. So does the event aid in unity? I personally believe that the founders would have been very supportive of these types of events and announcements. In law there is often the phrase, "the spirit of the law," why it was written. I don't think that the tradition aims at limiting these types of activities If our ultimate authority is a "loving God and how he will express himself" then we could ask what He might consider on this issue, the dance is a good thing despite people who are just down right negative. We're not supposed to have an opinion on outside issues so what one group does is not the other groups business unless if effects AA as a whole. This should then be discussed with their local Intergroup office. Your dance could be considered by some as the way "A loving God" is expressing Itself in your group. Does it effect AA as a whole? Only for the better but we must be careful where proceeds if any end up. AA bull roasts/dances are common fundraisers Just like our conventions, gratitude breakfasts' which are also announced in meetings. A group does however have the right to choose to not announce these types of events by way of a vote. Is it carrying the AA message? Most important of all, can people without money attend without feeling singled out, or made to feel ashamed because they don't have money (not so with many of our fundraisers). Admission should be set up in such a way that it is seen as a donation and not an admission/ticket charge. The have nots should be encouraged to attend. Is it an outside enterprise? Well if it's in the same building and using the group name then its not an outside event, if an autonomous group decided to put the dance on then it is an extending activity of the group or a special "lengthened" meeting A major issue is that the monies collected in the basket during the meeting should only go to purposes for which the money was given. A dance is probably not an understood allocation for those having contributed. Now if your meeting has the dance every month and everyone knows that this will be a use for the money then that might be acceptable. I personally belong to a group that puts on more events then most groups in the area and somehow we give more money to Intergroup, with many other contributor meeting, meeting several times a week, giving less. Finally. I think that we have to consider if this makes the AA way of life more attractive to the new comer who might think that we are a glum lot. People who don't like these announcements are usually just not very fun to begin with. Enjoy the dance! Emmanuel Baltimore Message: 4 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:54:03 EST From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com Subject: Announcing outside events during AA meetings Hi All Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Peace and Happy Days Emmanuel S. John, LCSW-C PRIVACY/CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING: This message is intended for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, the disclosure of which is governed by 42CFR, Part 2, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPPA) and other applicable Federal and State law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this information is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the related message. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3107. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator out of town Fri-Mon Jan 27-30 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 8:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I will be out of town from Friday January 27 to Monday January 30, 2006. Please hold your messages until then. Thanks much! Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3108. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 100 Hundred Men and Women? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W did like to be "generous" in his numerical estimates. However, the "100 men" part likely derived from a prospectus Hank P put together to offer shares of stock to underwrite the production of the book. The shares were offered at $25 which would be around $325 using the 2003 Consumer Price Index (CPI). The graphic image file I have of the prospectus shows a date of June 1939 on its cover which has the title "Alcoholics Anonymous." The date is likely in error since the prospectus contents announce that the Alcoholic Foundation had recently been formed and that ten chapters of the book had been completed. Hank's story is "The Unbeliever." What eventually came to be called "Works Publishing Co" was originally proposed to be named "The One Hundred Men Corporation" in the prospectus. The proposed title for what became "Alcoholics Anonymous" (the Big Book) was "One Hundred Men." The "and women" part turned out to be Florence R of NY (as Merton noted) whose story is "A Feminine Victory" (Marty M didn't arrive until after the manuscript had been distributed). Florence R, was the first woman in AA and was sober around a year when she wrote her story. She later moved to Washington DC to join up with Fitz M (whose story is "Our Southern Friend") to help start AA there. Sadly, Florence returned to drinking (Fitz M was called to the morgue to identify her). A non-alcoholic wife of an AA member also had her personal story printed in the first edition. She was Marie B whose story is "An Alcoholic's Wife." Her husband was Walter B whose story was "The Backslider." Walter was also the first patient admitted to St Thomas Hospital in Akron when Dr Bob and Sister Ignatia began their collaboration. When Bill W visited Dr Bob in November 1937, they "compared notes." 40 cases were sober (more than 20 for over a year). All were once diagnosed as hopeless. In a meeting at T Henry Williams' home, Bill's ideas, for a book, hospitals and how to expand the movement with paid missionaries, narrowly passed by 2 votes among 18 members. The NY group was more enthusiastic. This is what led to the start of the writing of the Big Book. Between November 1937, when there were "40 cases sober" up to the early months of 1939 (the Big Book was printed in April 1939) it is not inconceivable that membership jumped to 100 or thereabouts. Plus, like Jim B noted "it's a nice round number." And would at most constitute a "fib" as opposed to a "lie." I don't believe it was ever intended for every member in 1938/1939 to have their personal stories printed in the first edition. Stories from Akron and vicinity dominated since they were the first group and largest in membership. The manuscript story of an Akron member, "Ace Full - Seven - Eleven," was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too pleased with changes made to the first drafts of the Steps and basic text). Only 29 (not 40) personal stories were included in the first printing of the first edition Big Book (10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1 from the west coast - which was ghost written by Ruth Hock and later removed from the book in its second printing). Cheers Arthur ______________________________ Message 3073 from James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) said: "I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40 stories in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in AA at the time the book was published." ______________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3109. . . . . . . . . . . . Trust God, Clean House, Help Others From: Cloydg . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 11:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Group, One of my sponsee's asked me a question. I tried to find the answer as I had thought it came from steps 6 and 7. Unfortunately, when I looked it up on our reference pages. I still could not find the answer to this nagging question. Maybe you can answer it for me? Where did, "Trust God, Clean House, Help Others", come from? Is it in any AA literature In love and service, Clyde G. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3110. . . . . . . . . . . . First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 3:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first woman was Jane S. in Akron and she beat Florence by one month. Diz T. ______________________________ From: "mertonmm3" (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman (Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became number 2. ______________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3111. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2006 1:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 1999 General Service Conference passed the following Advisory Action: The annual limit contributed to the General Service Office from individual A.A. members be increased from $1,000 to $2,000 and that bequests from A.A. members should be subject to the same limit and be on a one-time-only basis and not in perpetuity. This seems to be focused on money donations. The AA Archives are called the "General Service Office Archives" and are one of the departments of the GSO (re the Service Manual pgs S72-S73). AA paid a hefty sum to purchase Dr Bob's Big Book from his son. Archives fall into an area where, as collectors items, their monetary value could be enormous. But there is also the historical value of the items integral to the founding of AA which might very well take precedence. I suspect that if the manuscript were donated to AA the decision would likely be up to the Conference on what to do and how to do it. I know of deceased members who have bequeathed papers, books and other assorted artifacts and memorabilia to the AA Archives. The collectors value of the items would exceed $2,000 by orders of magnitude. So I don't know if there is any notion of a cap on the monetary value. Oh how I would love to find out, for certain, who "Dr Howard" was. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jlobdell54 Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:19 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Printer's Copy and Dr. Howard Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ" I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3112. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2006 12:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How interesting to learn of another early AA woman! Still another was Mary Campbell, from somewhere in the South, I believe. Dave and I don't know her sobriety date or when she arrived in AA, but it was before April 1939 when Marty Mann went from Blythewood to her first AA meeting, held at the Wilsons' home in Brooklyn. Mary actually visited Marty at Blythewood. She relapsed in 1944, then returned to AA and stayed sober until she died in the 1990s. Maybe there are other early regional examples. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3113. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2006 2:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The phrase "1. Trust God, 2. Clean House, 3. Help Others" is typed on a prescription pad with Dr. Bob's name at the top. His signature is at the bottom, and the phrase "always remember it" is in handwriting at the top. The problem is that a good AA historian once showed me that both the handwritten phrase at the top, and the signature at the bottom, seem to have been scanned and copied from a genuine letter by Dr. Bob, and then superimposed on the picture of the prescription pad using a computer art program. It seemed pretty convincing to me. But I cannot remember where the genuine letter is found. Does anybody in the group know anything more about this issue over the authenticity of the prescription? ______________________________ From: "Cheryl F" (learning3legacies at cox.net) Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:43pm Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Trust God, Clean House, Help Others The saying came from Dr. Bob. It was written on one of Dr.Bob's prescription pads. I've seen a copy of it in the archives. Cheryl F Leander Tx ______________________________ From: Azor521@aol.com (Azor521 at aol.com) Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:01pm Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Trust God, Clean House, Help Others Ya might check this out.... http://www.nicd.us/AAand12-stepresources.html Dr. Bob wrote this prescription- 1. Trust God. 2. Clean House. 3. Help Others ______________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3114. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Trust God, Clean House, Help Others From: John S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2006 9:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "John S." (quasso at mindspring.com) Trust God, Clean House, Help Others "The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." Pg 98 BB The only other reference I've heard is Franklin W. from Olive Branch MS who claimed authorship of the phrase "Trust God, Clean House and help others." Of course the principle of helping others is all throughout our literature. In love and service John ______________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR: The sentence on page 98 in the Big Book gives us two thirds of the phrase ("trust in God and clean house"), but the full phrase "Trust God, Clean House, Help Others" does not show up in the Big Book in those precise words. Members have written in showing that these words could be used as short summaries of numerous things which are said in the Big Book. But showing all the parallels in the Big Book to the basic teaching of this little slogan does not, in and of itself, tell us who added "help others" to the phrase on page 98 in the Big Book, and began popularizing it as an AA slogan. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana ______________________________ From: Toto24522@aol.com (Toto24522 at aol.com) Big Book page 164 A Vision for You " ....... you must remember that your real reliance is always upon Him. (Trust God) Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. ( Help others) The answers will come, if your own house is in order. ( Clean House) See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others." "Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. (Trust God) Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. (Clean House) Give freely of what you find and join us. ( Help Others) "We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny. May God bless you and keep you -- until then." In simple form, the steps are: 1-3: Trust God 4-11: Clean House 12: Help Others ______________________________ From: "ArtSheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Source of "clean house, trust God, help others": For the basic ideas, see Big Book pages 14-15, 89, 90, 94, 97, 98, 132. Also Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions pages 56, 60, 63. My own viewpoint: Clean house: Step 1 (of booze or forget about all the other Steps), then Steps 4 thru 10 (to clear away the obstacles we put in God's way and then continue the housecleaning regularly with Step 10) Trust in God: Steps 2, 3, 6, 7, 11 (culminating in the regular practice of praying only for knowledge of God's will and power to carry it out) Help others: Steps 8, 9 and 12 (in the spirit of the "golden rule" or "greatest commandment" as my church calls it). There are a number of places around the country that describe Steps 10, 11 and 12 as "maintenance Steps." Clean house, trust in God and help others certainly is a nice concise description of these Steps (sort of like Dr Bob reducing them all down to "love and service"). As for where the saying "clean house, trust in God and help others" originated, my guess will be that several hundred locations will claim it originated in their local area, and they will all be correct (rule # 62). Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3115. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in India: arranging counselling for known offenders From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2006 8:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Helping them kick the bottle Staff Reporter Alcoholics Anonymous arranges counselling for known offenders CHENNAI - India: Alcoholics Anonymous, the liquor de-addiction support group, will tie up with the city police to help repeat offenders kick the bottle. At a meeting held at the Zion Church in Chindatripet on Friday, Alcoholics Anonymous invited a group of more than 100 known offenders and their families and counselled on how life without liquor could change them. The invitees even had a role model they aspire to become: a person who had a history of criminal life but had reformed over the past two years. The coordinator for the programme said the idea was for those present to have someone to relate to. "He is someone they can relate to. He was a repeated offender for over 10 years. He eventually gave up liquor and reformed himself." The organisers said Police Commissioner R. Nataraj, who was the chief guest, was so impressed with the idea that he even offered the auditoria in three new police stations for conducting future meetings. Representatives of Alcoholics Anonymous said de-addiction programmes and support groups closely worked with police and prison authorities in the United States for the past six decades. They hoped that similar programmes would be possible in the future. Tamil Nadu - Chennai http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/29/stories/2006012915490300.htm Copyright C 2006, The Hindu. Republication or redissemination of the contents of this screen are expressly prohibited without the written consent of The Hindu. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3116. . . . . . . . . . . . 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2006 4:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My sponsor told me about AA having a "statement of principles" in 1950. He tells me they originally came out in 1948 but that no proof is obtainable from New York. Does anyone know about this? The statement of principles of 1948 is in Appendix G in Mitch K's book "How it Worked." Does anyone know why these were replaced by the 1950 statement of principles. Do they give General Service more power? Why does Royal S., the attorney who incorporated the Grapevine, on pg 199 say the trustees suppressed the statement of 1948? t/y Shakey Mike G. Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3117. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2006 5:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Rick, As Stated in my original post this appears to be the draft edited by Hank P. and Dr. Howard. It does not appear to be anything like a draft that a publisher could work from and if you look closely at the 4 pages from the Sotheby's Catelog I think you will agree. Its quite obviously an intermediate sort of draft as it doesn't remotely agree with the finished product. Also as stated previously there are two handwritten references to Dr. Howard and most of the handwriting is Hank P.'s in my opinion. I disagee with the Sotheby assertion that this is the final copy that went to Cornwall Press. This document is far more significant historically. I am quite cautious with such an assertion as their experts are quite meticulous. Please look to what's available facimilewise rather than what secondhand reporters tell us. All the best!! -merton ---------------------------------------------------------- --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricktompkins" wrote: > > The "Printer's draft" manuscript of the Big Book was sold in June 2004 for 1.56 million dollars, through a telephone bid from California to the auction site in NYC. Bill P. of Hazelden Press verified its authenticity at the time, after his report of viewing the entire manuscript on what we know as our 'first 164 pages.' From what I have learned, this one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in February 1939---the linotype operators made the galleys of Alcoholics Anonymous from this draft. > $1.56 million is a great deal of private money, but I wonder if the artifact will ever be shown to the general AA public. Such a shame! even the AA Archives at GSO stayed away from the auction fracas, with AAWS having no opinion on this outside issue: the fiscal speculation of AA archival items. > The manuscript was the property of Barry L., confidant of Lois and the writer of AAWS' Living Sober in 1973. Lois gave it to him the mid-1970s and Barry's grand-nephew put it up on the auction block last year > Honestly, I was saddened that the nephew never considered contributing it to the AA Archives at GSO, even with its potential tax write-off. > In serenity, > Rick, Illinois > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3118. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed From: mr.grassroots . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2006 10:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I posted a request for information on the Harper Brothers printings of the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" some time ago but seem to have a problem connecting/receiveing feedback. (Probably my doing since I am not completely familiar with this board yet.) In general I was wondering as to how many copies Harpers did of this work? different printings? Total number printed? Thank You in advance for your patience and will keep checking back in. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3119. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2006 5:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The name Curry is extremely interesting as it was one of names mentioned by Bill and Hank during their 2 week stock redemption debate, as a creditor of Henry G. Parkhurst, Inc. (unincorporated in reality)(the name Honor Dealers was not used in this discussion, Hank' contention was that he was principally liable as the company bore his namesake so he owned the furniture. Bill pointed out that as treasurer , an officer, he was equally liable). One of the other creditors was Sinclair Oil. As I stated originally after reviewing the 4 pages from the Sotheby's catelog its my very stong opinion that this wasn't a "publisher's draft" but rather an intermittent draft and is mostly in Hank P's and very likely the mysterious Dr. Howard's hand. The one page in Bill's hand was written many years after publication. Hopefully more people can view the photo fascimiles from the catelog to understand my point. If there's anyone living in the Essex or Morris County area's please check the various city directories for Dr. Marcus A. Curry. Thank you jlobdell for this possible lead into identifying the elusive Dr. Howard. Greystone Park yielded several very early members including Morgan R., from Glen Ridge, who spoke on the radio about AA. Source - documents in GSO Archives 1939-40 for unpublished yet Black Sheep manuscript) All the Best!!! -merton ----------------------------------------- --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jlobdell54" wrote: > > Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of > either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given > year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been > given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives > are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS > restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ" > I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane > at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park > Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3120. . . . . . . . . . . . Sauerkraut remedy From: Rich Foss . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2006 12:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob and the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut. Thanks. Rich IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3121. . . . . . . . . . . . Change of terms From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2006 10:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi. Does any one know why the term ex-alcoholic was replaced with ex-problem drinker in the big book. God bless Dave IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3122. . . . . . . . . . . . Ray O''K died Jan. 28th From: John Pine . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2006 11:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII FYI, an eloquent and influential member of the fellowship, Ray O'K., died in Florida earlier this week and will be buried in Larchmont, NY on Saturday, 1/28. Here is a link to a newspaper obituary. http://www.nyjnews.com/obituary/obit.php3?id=1912213 John P. Richmond, VA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3123. . . . . . . . . . . . Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 From: Soberholic . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2006 1:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has anybody has ever brought up a question about the connection between the theory of the enneagram and the 4th Step in 12x12? Does anyone know if Bill W. was aware of the early enneagram movement? In the theory of the enneagram, in the instinctual subtypes, each type also has three main instinctual subtypes - the Self-Preservation, Sexual and Social subtypes. In the area of ego-fixations and the deadly sins, the Enneagram types have also been correlated with the traditional Seven Deadly Sins plus two additional descriptors - 'deceit' and 'fear'. The '7 sins + 2' need to be understood in a much more specific meaning than usual." Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3124. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshop From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2006 1:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Because of the hurricane which struck New Orleans just before the National Archives Workshop was to take place, it has had to be rescheduled and relocated to another part of Louisiana. We have had to miss a year, to allow these new accommodations to be obtained, but everything is now set up to hold the workshop in Baton Rouge. 10th Annual National Archives Workshop September 14-17, 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana Holiday Inn South 9940 Airline HiWay Baton Rouge, Louisiana. 70816 (255) 924-7021 Fax: (225) 924-9816 Mention N.A.W. (by August 31, 2006) for $79.00 room rate. http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/ Co-Chairs: Jimmy H. phone 504-382-9286 or email jhardingnola@cox.net (jhardingnola at cox.net) Bobby B. phone 337-662-3402 or email danieb@att.net (danieb at att.net) __________________________________ Sent to us by: "Area64archives.org" daggerrose@area64tnarchives.org (daggerrose at area64tnarchives.org) http://area64tnarchives.org/1stquarter2006/index.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3125. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed From: j_oys5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mr.grassroots" wrote: > > I posted a request for information on the Harper Brothers printings of > the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" some time ago but seem > to have a problem connecting/receiveing feedback. (Probably my doing > since I am not completely familiar with this board yet.) > > In general I was wondering as to how many copies Harpers did of this > work? different printings? Total number printed? > > Thank You in advance for your patience and will keep checking back in. > Good Afternoon Mr. Grassroots I would suggest contacting the Archives desk at the General Service Office in New York. They should be able to provide you with the information that you are seeking. I believe it should also be available in the 1957 Final Conference Report. Thelr Ph. # is (212)-870-8700 , website www.aa.org In Service Jerry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3126. . . . . . . . . . . . Accident From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 4:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Friends (and a few others), On Saturday, Jan. 28th, I suffered a serious accident that, though non-fatal, will substantially lay me up for some time. Please do not write of your sympapthy and concern, in which I trust. I came home from the hospital to over 700 messages. I will reply according to my ability and larger priorities. Thank you for your consideration. ernie kurtz ___________________________________ From the moderator: Dr. Kurtz, a Harvard-trained historian, is the author of "Not God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous" and "The Spirituality of Imperfection: Storytelling and the Search for Meaning." He is widely recognized as the leading academic historian in the field of AA history. A good history of the AA movement in the 20th century will have to include a section on his major ideas and contributions. The title of his major book reminds us that we must first recognize that we ourselves are NOT God before we will turn to the higher power of the twelve step program (who is the REAL God) and ask for help. I do not have any information myself, beyond what appears in Ernie's letter. If I learn more, I will let you know. Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3127. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sauerkraut remedy From: Peggy Anna . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2006 5:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a book written in 1993 by Don Julio DeMedici Santaleone, entitled "The James Connection or Sauerkraut, Tomatoes, and Karo Syrup" The author has been a member of AA for over 20 years now and lives in Rochester, New York. In his introduction he states "as related in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (p 74) a detoxification treatment of a combination of tomatoes, sauerkraut and Karo corn syrup was administered by Bill W. to Dr. Bob in order to supply Bob with vitamins and energy so that Bob could perform surgery". Peggy Anna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Foss" To: Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sauerkraut remedy > > An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice > treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with > replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our > literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob > and > the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's > simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way > out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut. > Thanks. > Rich > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3128. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2006 5:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From a quick research on the Eneagram, the theory was not formulated until 1960 (the nine types), which means that it had no association with the development of the 4th step. Please see: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/history.asp It describes the various people in the wikipedia discussion and what their theories were. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3129. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant February dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 10:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang. Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill and sophomore class suspended Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from professionalization. Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use in his practice. Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts" for "we ought" in the Big Book. Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC. Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in pamphlet form for many years. Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA. Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is published. Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get married. Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner. Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA by Larry J. Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died. Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank P ("The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this as happening Feb 13, 1937 Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition) sobriety date. Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W. Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem, NC. Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was born. Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members. Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two years before, at a New York AA meeting. Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases. Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA dies. Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on AA by Seymour Rothman. Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to tape the Big Book. Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3130. . . . . . . . . . . . Trust God, Clean House, Help Others From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2006 5:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It was interesting that we are discussing the prescription to "Trust God, Clean House, Help Others" at the time the phrase appears in the obituary of Ray OK. It is a clever way to speak of his A.A. membership without actually mentioning Alcoholics Anonymous: ... Following the credo: "Trust God, Clean House and Help Others", Mr. [O'K] was active in many organizations and fellowships. He was well known for his work with the New York State Bar Association, where he was Chairman of the Committee on Lawyer Alcoholism. He also worked tirelessly on issues relating to alcoholism in the legal profession with the ABA and ILAA. ... http://www.nyjnews.com/obituary/obit.php3?id=1912213 ----- IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3131. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W and Dr. Bob From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 2:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings and sponsor, I have even checked the internet. How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories instead of in the main section (164 pgs)? I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages. Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit, except that Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't. Thank you for being here, Jim S/Pensacola, FL IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3132. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2006 5:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Diz As the eloquent John Wayne would have said "hold on there pilgrim." The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA (in 1935) was the legendary "Lil" of the "Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241). "Lil" reputedly sobered up outside AA. However, it is said she never got far enough along to attend a meeting. I'm not sure if the dry dates of Florence R or Jane S can be stated with certainty or precision. Take for example Dr Bob's stated dry date (June 10, 1935)and the starting date of the AMA convention in Atlantic City, when he had his last binge for a few days (also June 10, 1935). "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides Jane S' relative dry date through old-timer Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came into AA in February 1937" (then on pg 122) "remembered that Jane S was making the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in 1937, about the same time he started" [Jane's trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241 later indicates that Jane was the wife of a "vice-president of a large steel company." The key words in her relative dry date are "about the same time" [relative to February 1937]. I can't find a hard written reference to confirm it, but sources I trust for credibility indicate that Jane S stayed sober for only a few months. "Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it states "The name 'One Hundred Men' fell by the wayside because of objections of Florence R, at that time the only female member." It's odd that Jane S' name isn't also mentioned as a female member "at that time." Is it possible that that she had already fell off the wagon and departed? The edited story section of the Big Book was completed "in the latter part of January 1939" (re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of the manuscript was likely completed in the latter part of March (the book was published April 4, 1939). Florence R, states in her story "... The drinking ended the morning I got there ..." ["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd time]. She then later states "That was more than a year ago." In manuscript versions, circulating around the internet, the sentence read "That was several years ago" which is quite obviously wrong. The key words in her relative dry date are "more than a year ago" [but from when?]. So how to do the reckoning to establish female member primacy? It seems to be a contest between the precision inherent in the relative values denoted by "about" or "more than." Is Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall on February 1st or 28th (that's almost a month's difference) or February 14 (to split the difference)or could late January (31st) or early March (1st)? Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year ago" relative to late January 1939 (when the edited stories were completed) or mid to late March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If it is March 1939, then Jane S may have primacy (and that is only a "may have"). If "more than" is relative to January or February 1939 then Florence R has primacy or perhaps it's a tie. The problem is does "more than" mean a day, a week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or 14 months or what? So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence. Why? Florence stayed dry for over a year. Jane S lasted for a few months. If it's mainly about when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats them both. If the elapsed time before they returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member of AA and should be a founder. However, it probably boils down to "truth by choice." In any event the matter is not by any means certain. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Diz Titcher Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:58 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First woman was Jane S., not Florence The first woman was Jane S. in Akron and she beat Florence by one month. Diz T. ______________________________ From: "mertonmm3" (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman (Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became number 2. ______________________________ Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3133. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W and Dr. Bob From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 1:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Jim "Bill's Story" and "There is a Solution" were the first two chapters written. They were used as examples to show what the book would be like while it was being developed. I don't think the early AA members shared your viewpoint about what comprised "the important stuff" in the Big Book. Quite often members will trumpet the "basic text" of the Big Book and give short-shrift to the personal stories. The "basic text" very much suggests otherwise. Also, in "AA Comes of Age" (pg 164) Bill W writes "We had not gone much farther with the text of the book when it was evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a story or case history section. We would have to produce evidence in the form of living proof, written testimonials of our membership itself. It was felt also that the story section could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the text itself might not." Among the "important stuff" in the Big Book basic text there are 5 explicit references to the personal stories: 1 - Page 29: "Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-three [forty-two in the 4th edition] personal experiences. Each individual, in the personal stories, describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way he established his relationship with God. These give a fair cross section of our membership and a clear-cut idea of what has actually happened in their lives. We hope no one will consider these self-revealing accounts in bad taste. Our hope is that many alcoholic men and women, desperately in need, will see these pages, and we believe that it is only by fully disclosing ourselves and our problems that they will be persuaded to say, "Yes, I am one of them too; I must have this thing." 2 - Page 50: "In our personal stories you will find a wide variation in the way each teller approaches and conceives of the Power which is greater than himself. Whether we agree with a particular approach or conception seems to make little difference. Experience has taught us that these are matters about which, for our purpose, we need not be worried. They are questions for each individual to settle for himself. On one proposition, however, these men and women are strikingly agreed. Every one of them has gained access to, and believes in, a Power greater than himself. This Power has in each case accomplished the miraculous, the humanly impossible. As a celebrated American statesman put it, "Let's look at the record." 3 - Page 55: "In this book you will read the experience of a man who thought he was an atheist. His story is so interesting that some of it should be told now. His change of heart was dramatic, convincing, and moving." 4 - Page 58 (a familiar reading at meetings): "Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps." [note: this was not written to be the format of a speaker meeting - it was written to get the reader to read the stories to find out what they had]. 5 - Pages 112-113: .. But after his next binge, ask him if he would really like to get over drinking for good. Do not ask if he would do it for you or anyone else. Just would he like to? The chances are he would. Show him your copy of this book and tell him what you have found out about alcoholism. Show him that as alcoholics, the writers of the book understand. Tell him some of the interesting stories you have read. If you think he will be shy of a spiritual remedy, ask him to look at the chapter on alcoholism. Then perhaps he will be interested enough to continue. I've often wondered how those who purchase the abridged edition are able to follow the instructions in the basic text without the material that the basic text makes reference to. "The Doctor's Opinion" by Dr Silkworth, started as page 1 in the 1st edition Big Book. Dr Esther L Richards of John Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, was sent a copy of the first two chapters mentioned above. She wrote to Bill that he should get a first rate medical view at the beginning of the book. So Bill W's story starts the numbered chapters and Dr Bob's story starts the personal stories. Seems like a good fit for both our co-founders. After all, Bill W was AA #1 and Dr Bob was AA #2. AA #3 didn't make it into the book until the 2nd edition (his discharge from the hospital marked the start of AA's first group Akron #1). The first page in the Big Book starts immediately after the front cover. The last page ends immediately prior to the back cover. My friendly appeal to you would be to consider the "important stuff" to be everything that exists between those two covers. This way you get your full money's worth. (rule #62) Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim S. Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 1:31 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and Dr. Bob I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings and sponsor, I have even checked the internet. How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories instead of in the main section (164 pgs)? I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages. Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit, except that Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't. Thank you for being here, Jim S/Pensacola, FL Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3134. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2006 12:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Doctor Bob's story is in the first part of the Big Book as well as being the first chapter in the story section. It starts on page 155 in "A vision for You." It has been talking about Bill's "journey to a certain western city" when he needed to talk to another alcoholic. Reference to "a certain resident of that town" means Dr Bob. Then the story of AA Number three is introduced on page 156 where he is "a first class alcoholic prospect." BTW: When the Big Book was first published, did they ever say that the stories weren't "important stuff" as implied here? :-) When the Big Book said that a new prospect should "read this book," it didn't say he should only read "part of this book." I wonder when that trend to worshiping the first part while dismissing the story part started happening. "Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened to us, and what we are like now -- but you don't need to read those stories." Bah! It's time for a reality check. They included "our personal adventures before and after" for a good reason other than to make the book thicker. ____________________ En2joy! Tom En2ger -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Jim S." > > I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings > and sponsor, I have even checked the internet. > > How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories > instead of in the main section (164 pgs)? > > I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages. > > Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit, > except that Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't. > > Thank you for being here, > > Jim S/Pensacola, FL > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3135. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2006 3:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Diz Titcher" (rtitcher at comcast.net) Bill wrote the book. ______________________________ From: jocis007@aol.com (jocis007 at aol.com) They agreed that Bill's story would go first, and Doctor Bob's story would be the finish. It was done in such masterly form. Don't you agree? ______________________________ From: "Lee Nickerson" (snowlily at megalink.net) My take on it is that Bob was a very low-key guy and focused on Twelfth Step work and trying to keep Bill for franchising the program in the first few years. If Dr. Bob had been the one to get the message out to the world, it would have remained in Akron for a very long time. I can find nothing that indicates that Bill did anything unsavory to get his image the way it ended up. The Big Book was approved by the entire membership at the time, so Dr. Bob must have had a chance to speak up about just where his story was. I actually see Bill as a much larger influence as to the formation of the Fellowship than Dr. Bob. I think Bob's primary role was keeping a lid on Bill grandiosity and serving as Bill's friend and confidante. lee ______________________________ From the moderator, Glenn C. (glennccc@sbcglobal.net) Let's not over analyze and forget the obvious! There are people who can sing beautifully but cannot play a musical instrument. Their musical skills extend to their mouths but not to their fingers, because it seems to involve training a different part of the brain. Dr. Bob was someone who could talk to you, and explain to you orally what you had to do to get sober, better than anybody else in early AA. But if you look at the few things that he wrote, once you put a pen in his hand, he kind of froze up, and what came out was kind of wooden and not very well expressed. There have been many people in AA since then who were wonderful sponsors, and could stand up and give marvelous leads, but were not good writers. We've got a heck of a lot of good people like that. But Bill W. was real writer. I don't know how he managed to write all those hundreds of beautiful letters to people. And if you look at "As Bill Sees It," you can see how, even in the middle of an ordinary little letter that he just tossed off in a few minutes, there would often be buried passages of profound spiritual wisdom. You can't criticize other people for not having that kind of extraordinary skill. And it would have been foolish in the extreme to play silly games and insist on all of the first forty AA's being given exactly 4.1 pages to write in the first 164 pages of the Big Book, no more, no less. But this posed a problem when it came time to write the Big Book. Bill W. certainly couldn't have written Dr. Bob's story for him, that would have been arrogant and rude. So he had to concentrate in the book on the part that he had a right to talk about, about Ebby's visit to him, and how the scales fell from his eyes and he found the path of healing for himself, when Ebby told him what he had learned from the Oxford Group. And then he gave Dr. Bob the place of honor at the head of the story section, but kept the part Dr. Bob had to write fairly small, so Dr. Bob would be able to handle it. It would be great if Dr. Bob had also had the writing skills to explain exactly what he was thinking and feeling when he and Bill W. first met, oh boy would it be great, but he didn't have those skills. Nevertheless, when we put up pictures of the founders, we give Bill W. and Dr. Bob equal honor, with their portraits side by side. That's the important symbolism. Nobody tries to make the portrait of Bill W. bigger than the portrait of Dr. Bob. Let's just be grateful that we had several people in early AA who did have remarkable writing skills, like Bill W. and Richmond Walker and Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and Ed Webster. While also being grateful for the far greater number of people who knew how to be effective sponsors, and how to deal with suffering alcoholics on a one on one basis. We needed ALL of them in order for us to receive God's grace in its fullness. Along with the guy who shows up an hour in advance of every meeting and unlocks the building and makes the coffee, and says hello to you when you walk in, and is GLAD to see you. And you can count on him, and you know he's going to be there. And when you're hurting, he saves your life too, just as much as the others. In a little piece called the Tools of Recovery (http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html) which is often read at meetings in my part of Indiana, the sixth tool is Service, and it says simply, "Service helps our personal program grow. Service is giving in A.A. Service is leading a meeting, making coffee, moving chairs, being a sponsor, or emptying ashtrays. Service is action, and action is the magic word in this program." When I make coffee for a meeting, or help move chairs, or empty ashtrays, I do not regard it as a lower and inferior kind of service work. I do everything on that little list in the Tools of Recovery, and everything else that people ask me to do. All service is of equal honor in the eyes of God. I don't go around giving leads as a conference speaker on a regular basis because there are people in the program far more talented than I am in that area. My own story really isn't very interesting. But I treasure and honor the people we have who DO have good stories, and ARE good at giving leads in front of big conferences. Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe), the Catholic priest from Indiana, found that because the Catholic Church in those days required priests to wear clerical collars at all times, that he couldn't do a good job of making twelve step calls. All alcoholics could see was his clerical collar, and they couldn't identify with him, and they found it very threatening and frightening. He desperately wanted to do something which would be of service to his fellow alcoholics, and finally turned to leading weekend spiritual retreats and then to writing his Golden Books, not because he thought that being a writer was more important or more glamorous, but because it was the only kind of service work that he seemed to be any good at! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3136. . . . . . . . . . . . California Bill From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 2:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 3129, "Significant February dates in A.A. History " http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3129 it says: Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem, NC. Who was William Y. "California Bill" and what is his significance in AA history? Thanks. Chris Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3137. . . . . . . . . . . . Pat McC - Philadelphia longtimer From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 9:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Pat McC. of Audubon, NJ, formerly of Yeadon, Pa. died Feb 1st with 57 years of sobriety. He came in thru the 4021 clubhouse and was going to be one of the 5 longtime speakers on Sunday 3/12/06 3 P.M. when the club will celebrate their 60th anniversary.Another AA who showed us that long term sobriety is possible a day at a time with the help of a Higher Power and following the suggestions of our program. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike G. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3138. . . . . . . . . . . . From We Agnostics..Professor Langley From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As part of my continuing project to share esoteric refrences in the Big Book from Bill W's idiom of the time...(1930's) I'm sending this about the refrence to professor Langley's flying machine Chapter 4, Page 51; We Agnostics. "Professor Langley's airplane sank in the Potomic River"..... From We Agnostics, (P 51 Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous) Bill W. was moved by the story of a man's dreams and the ridicule of the press and the fact that a man could eventually fly. Samuel Pierpont Langley Samuel Pierpont Langley (1834 - 1906) is often used as a contrast to the Wrights. Unlike the two brothers, Langley was highly-educated and had more than ample funding in support of his efforts to develop an airplane. His stature at Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution lent great credibility to his efforts to build an airplane, as did his success with the unmanned aerodromes. In particular, his Aerodrome No. 6 flew 4,200 feet at about 30 mph on November 28, 1896. This unmanned tandem-wing craft employed a lightweight steam engine for propulsion. The wings were set at a distinct dihedral angle so that the craft was dynamically stable, capable of righting itself when disturbed by a sideways breeze. There was no method of steering this craft, nor would it have been easy to add any means to control the direction the craft flew. From the success of No. 6, Langley was able to convince the War Department (a.k.a. Department of Defense) to contribute $50,000 toward the development of a person-carrying machine. The Smithsonian contributed a like sum towards Langley's efforts. Charles Manley developed an extraordinary radial-cylinder internal combustion engine that developed 52 horsepower for the man-carrying Great Aerodrome. Langley felt it would be safest to fly over water, so he spent almost half of his funds constructing a houseboat with a catapult that would be capable of launching his new craft. The Great Aerodrome might have flown if Langley had chosen a more traditional means of launching the craft from the ground. The pilot still would have lacked any means of steering the plane, and so faced dangers aplenty. But it might have at least gotten into the air. Unfortunately, Langley chose to stick with his 'tried-and-true' approach of catapult launches. The plane had to go from a dead stop to the 60 m.p.h. flying speed in only 70 feet. The stress of the catapult launch was far greater than the flimsy wood-and-fabric airplane could stand. The front wing was badly damaged in the first launch of October 7, 1903. A reporter who witnessed the event claimed it flew "like a handful of mortar." Things went even worse during the second launch of December 9, 1903, where the rear wing and tail completely collapsed during launch. Charles Manley nearly drowned before he could be rescued from the wreckage and the ice-covered Potomac river. Needless to say, the Washington critics had a field day. The Brooklyn Eagle quoted Representative Hitchcock as saying, "You tell Langley for me ... that the only thing he ever made fly was Government money." Representative Robinson characterized Langley as "a professor ... wandering in his dreams of flight ... who was given to building ... castles in the air." The War Department, in its final report on the Langley project, concluded "we are still far from the ultimate goal, and it would seem as if years of constant work and study by experts, together with the expenditure of thousands of dollars, would still be necessary before we can hope to produce an apparatus of practical utility on these lines." Eight days after Langley's spectacular failure, a sturdy, well-designed craft, costing about $1000, struggled into the air in Kitty Hawk, defining for all time the moment when humankind mastered the skies. In spite of 18 years of well-funded and concerted effort by Langley to achieve immortality, his singular contribution to the invention of the airplane was the pair of 30-lb aerodromes that flew in 1914.. He died in 1906 after a series of strokes, a broken and disappointed man. More>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (photo) A very short history of the airplane. Professor Langley was a respected astronomer. He invented the bolometer, an instrument that measures small amounts of microwave or infared radiation by detecting changes in electrical resistance on a thin heat sensitive metal conductor. (This will be on the test) His name lives on in a unit of energy flux. At the end of the 19th Century he was head of the Smithsonian Institute, which in those days was a serious scientific organization. He started to experiment with model airplanes. These experiments culminated in a couple of Steam Models that earned him a permanent place in pre Wright Brothers aviation. These successes lead to his being asked by the Department of War to construct a man carrying air craft. It didn't fly. Twice the Aerodrome, as he called it, was catapulted off the roof of a house boat and twice it fell into the Potomac river "Like a handful of wet mortar." Soon after he died, some say broken by the ridicule with which the press treated the event. And the airplane languished in the Smithsonian. In the meantime the Wright Brothers flew, and patented, their airplane. They were quite aggressive about pursuing what they considered violations of this patent, and set American aviation back by years. Glen Curtiss was one of the individuals who wanted to avoid paying the Wright's considerable royalties and he embarked on a series of lawsuits that was to drag on for years. In about 1914, in an effort to show that the Wright Brothers didn't make the first airplane capable of flight he approached the Smithsonian with an offer to see if he could make the remains of the Aerodrome fly. The Smithsonian who stood to recover from shame and ridicule agreed to this. But the Aerodrome was fundamentally unsound, so Curtiss took it upon himself to make many modifications. He eventually achieved limited flight. Among the changes were, replacing the motor and the two primitive propellers mounted behind the forward wing with a tractor prop powered by a more modern engine. He also gave up on catapulting it off a houseboat and fitted it with floats. Orville Wright was particularly insistant that Langley had the center of pressure in the wrong places and that Curtiss applied the Wright Bros discoveries to rerig the wing bracing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (photo) THIS PICTURE SHOWS AN EARLY CURTISS INCARNATION http://www.rense.com/general12/cig.htm Gene from Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3139. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s debt from stock market collapse From: gbaa487 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 11:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On page 4 of Bill's story he tells us of the collapse of the market. My understanding is that it put him in about $650,000 (today's value) in debt. How and when did he get out of that debt? Thanks......this is the best AA info site. george,nyc IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3140. . . . . . . . . . . . First lesbian or gay AA member? From: nancy miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 8:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who was the first lesbian or gay man in the program? I heard this women set up an organization that studies alcoholism. Who was she ??? Nancy M Thanks ________________________________ (This is with respect to the discussion over whether Florence R. of Westfield N.J. or Jane S. in Akron was the first woman to get sober in AA.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3141. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 100 Hundred Men and Women? From: merton m. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2006 1:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Art, I enjoyed this. The only techno is that Florence lived in Westfield NJ rather than NY. Only people like us care about such details. When I was archives chair for N. Jersey 15 years ago we photographed the beautiful home as well as extensive photos of 9-11 Hill St and 17-19 William St. in Newark, Hanks 1936 home at 575 Wyndum (sp?) in Teneck where Lois diary said the Jersey drunks met at times (carried into LR I believe), Hank and Kathleen's much larger home at 344 N. Fullerton in Montclair where they moved in 1937 and where Bill and Lois stayed for a few months after leaving the Heights. (along with Jim B.). All these photos still hang on huge displays in the intergroup office and are carried around the country with the traveling committee. All the Best, -merton ArtSheehan wrote: The "and women" part turned out to be Florence R of NY (as Merton noted) whose story is "A Feminine Victory" (Marty M didn't arrive until after the manuscript had been distributed). Florence R, was the first woman in AA and was sober around a year when she wrote her story. She later moved to Washington DC to join up with Fitz M (whose story is "Our Southern Friend") to help start AA there. Sadly, Florence returned to drinking (Fitz M was called to the morgue to identify her). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3142. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2006 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Diz and Art have presented answers to the question referred to in the subject line of this email. They appear to me at least to be addressing two separate but related questions. Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who was the first woman working the program of what became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's sobriety?" While some of my contemporary colleagues think you are still a bit wet behind the ears at one year, it was an awful long time for our Old Timers, whose sobriety was measured in months. That is the question; what is the answer? Tommy H in Baton Rouge . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3143. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2006 3:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII >Hi Art, In GSO Archives the early members were given 1 page questioneers to fill out which included self reported sobriety date, occupation, ect. I specifically recall one that Florence presumably submitted. Post 64 on this site (by this sites founder) places Florence's date of entry at March, 1937. This sound accurate but I'm missing my transcript of this. A specific inquiry to NY regarding this questioneer will verify the accuracy or inaccuracy as to the date if GSO responds. It would be easiest to obtain from the microfische. As you know Florence made contact with AA through her non-alcoholic husband who was a friend and buisness associate of Bill's. All the best, -merton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3144. . . . . . . . . . . . San Francisco Bay area history From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2006 10:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am interested in finding out about the history of Bay-area 12-Step culture during the late 1970s. I am curious about the growth of AA and other organizations in San Francisco and Oakland, but also in surrounding counties, especially Napa, Sonoma, and Mendocino. This part of the country has a reputation for "crunchy" and New Age-y recovery, but I'm not sure what that reputation is based on. I'd be grateful for any sources folks can direct me to. Thanks in advance. Trysh Travis ttravis@wst.ufl.edu (ttravis at wst.ufl.edu) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3145. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First lesbian or gay AA member? From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2006 8:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Nancy - I think you must be referring to Marty Mann (see below), who founded the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence (NCADD) when she had 5 years' sobriety. She was not the first woman to come to AA, but she was the first to achieve long-term sobriety. She arrived in AA in April 1939. Also, she was lesbian. However, Dave (co-author of our biography of her) and I never looked into whether she was the first LGBT. I think there may have been one or two gay men before her, but I'd be surprised if there were another lesbian. Maybe this posting will produce historical information for all of us. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3146. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First lesbian or gay AA member? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2006 12:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Nancy Source abbreviations: (12and12)Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, (AACOA)AA Comes of Age, (BW-FH) Bill W by Francis Hartigan, (DBGO) Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers, (MMM) Mrs Marty Mann by Sally and David Brown, (PIO)Pass It On. The first homosexual AA member likely entered the Fellowship in 1937 ("year two" on the "AA calendar") in Akron, OH. It's discussed in the 12and12 Tradition 3 essay but you'd be hard pressed to discover it. Its specifics are obscured. The 12and12 Tradition 3 essay states: "A newcomer appeared at one of these groups, knocked on the door and asked to be let in. He talked frankly with that group's oldest member. He soon proved that his was a desperate case, and that above all he wanted to get well. "But," he asked, "will you let me join your group? Since I am the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism, you may not want me among you. Or will you?" "One of these groups" referred to Akron #1 in Ohio and the "oldest member" was Dr Bob. The "addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism" had nothing at all to do with drugs. Bill W later speaking at an open meeting of the 1968 General Service Conference described the prospect's "addiction" as "sex deviate." The member was likely homosexual. The language used by Bill to describe him was the language of the time in the latter 1960s. Guidance on what to do on the matter came from Dr Bob asking, "What would the Master do?" The prospect was admitted (DBGO 240-241, also the pamphlet "The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous" pg 30). The member is then described in the 12and12 Tradition 3 essay as: "Overjoyed, the newcomer plunged into Twelfth Step work. Tirelessly he laid AA's message before scores of people. Since this was a very early group, those scores have since multiplied themselves into thousands. Never did he trouble anyone with his other difficulty. AA had taken its first step in the formation of Tradition Three." I do not know who this member was or whether he had his story in the 1st edition Big Book. Oddly though, this Akron, OH member's circumstances are often erroneously intermingled with an incident that occurred in New York 8 years later in 1945. The NY incident involved a prominent, early homosexual member, Barry L, and an unknown homosexual member who created quite a stir upon arrival. Barry L (author of the book "Living Sober" discussed later below) was likely the first male homosexual member of the Fellowship in New York. The book "Pass It On" describes his calling Bill W from the 41st St clubhouse in NYC to tell Bill of the arrival of "a black man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women's clothing and makeup." The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." When asked what to do about it, Bill W posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered "yes" Bill replied "well I think that's all we can ask" (BW-FH 8, PIO 317-318). "Pass It On" goes on to state that "although he soon disappeared (repeat "soon disappeared" for emphasis) the prospect's presence created a precedent for the 3rd Tradition." Anecdotal accounts erroneously say that the black man, in women's clothing, went on to become one of the best 12th Steppers in NY. Prior postings to AAHL even went so far as giving him the name "Veronica" and claiming his drug was heroin. It's a myth - again as stated in "Pass It On" "he soon disappeared." Fragments of the 1945 story in New York, which mentions "dope fiend" are intermingled with the 12and12 Tradition 3 essay, which occurred in Ohio, and mentions "an addiction" and "plunged into 12th Step work." It has created one of the most persistent myths in AA. Marty M was the first lesbian member of AA. On April 11, 1939, Marty, at age 35, attended her first meeting at Bill W's home at 182 Clinton St. For the prior 15 months, she was a charity patient at Bellevue Hospital in NYC and the Blythewood Sanitarium in Greenwich, CT (under the care of Dr Harry Tiebout). Dr Tiebout gave her a manuscript of the Big Book and arranged for Marty to go to the meeting. Upon her return to Blythewood, she told fellow patient, Grenville (Grennie) C "we are not alone." Marty later established an AA Group at the Sanitarium. (BW-FH 8, 125-126, AACOA 3, 18-19, PIO 210-213, MMM 111-123) Sally and David Brown's excellent biography "Mrs Marty Mann" provides substantial details on Marty and her relationship with Priscilla P (who along with Marty and others started the AA Grapevine in June 1944). Their book also notes that Marty briefly returned to drinking somewhere in between the latter 1950s to early 1960s. It was a well kept secret in NY and in the NCA. Nancy O, in her biographies of Big Book story authors, wrote that in order to protect the work she was doing during a period of heavy anti-gay bias, Marty never revealed her lesbianism except to Bill (her sponsor) and other close friends. Her long-time lesbian partner, Priscilla P, was once a glamorous art director at Vogue Magazine and was the 5th woman Marty brought into AA. Barry L's involvement in the book "Living Sober" (noted earlier above) is an interesting story. Published in 1975, the book had a bit of a tortuous history. According to Bob P's unpublished manuscript of AA history from 1955 to 1985, around 1968, the Board discussed the need for a pamphlet for sober old-timers, and the need to point out "traps" or "danger signals." Out of this grew a proposal for literature to be developed around the topic, "How We Stay Sober." In 1969 it was assigned to a professional writer. After nearly 2 years of work, the draft was rejected. The sense that it needed such drastic revision led to it being started from scratch by Barry L, a seasoned, skillful freelance writer and consultant for GSO. Barry negotiated a flat fee for the project. After 4 1/2 years he came up with a simple and practical manual on how to enjoy a happy, productive life without drinking. "Living Sober" proved to be quite popular and after it sold nearly a million copies, Barry felt he should have been compensated more generously and receive some sort of royalty. AAWS and the General Service Board declined. Barry threatened legal action, but never followed through. As an item of further interest, not long ago the mark-up manuscript of the editorial changes for the 1st Ed Big Book was auctioned off at over a million and a half dollars. The manuscript was given to Barry L as a gift by Lois W. Cheers Arthur S -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nancy miller Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:15 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Cc: nancy miller Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First lesbian or gay AA member? Who was the first lesbian or gay man in the program? I heard this women set up an organization that studies alcoholism. Who was she ??? Nancy M Thanks ________________________________ (This is with respect to the discussion over whether Florence R. of Westfield N.J. or Jane S. in Akron was the first woman to get sober in AA.) Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3147. . . . . . . . . . . . Early gay member Barry L. ("Living Sober" author) From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2006 7:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't know he was the very "the first" gay member but I do know this man claims to be the member who was asked to champion "Gay Meetings" by Bill Wilson... his name was Barry L. and also the author of Living Sober. You can hear his talk online at www.xa-speakers.org> _________________________ Moderator's note: See Message 3146 from Arthur Sheehan for more details about Barry L.'s life and contributions to AA: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3146 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3148. . . . . . . . . . . . Sylvia K. From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2006 4:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is it true that Sylvia Kaufmann (Keys to the Kingdom) was urged to return to Chicago and start AA there with Earl Treat after her visit to Akron and her professed desire to stay with the founders? According to the story I was told, Sylvia was gorgeous, rich, divorced, and adoring and the AA ladies of Akron felt it would be far better for all if she did her good deeds elsewhere. ______________________________ Moderator: see Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age p. 22, where a different story is told, and for a photo of Earl Treat, see the second photo on http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3149. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2006 4:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Mel Barger" (melb at accesstoledo.com) Hi All, I went to my first meeting early in October, 1948, in California and was given a loan copy of the Big Book right then. The woman who loaned it to me urged me to read the personal stories first and then go back to the first part. Bill D.'s story (AA #3) wasn't in the first edition, and appeared in the second edition only because Bill W. recorded him out in Akron and pretty much put together his story. I gathered that Bill D. wasn't all that excited about the book idea in the beginning, but Bill W. realized that Bill D.'s role was important and should be in the book. I think it made sense to have Dr. Bob's story lead the personal story section. But I've always believed that Bill's Story is the best and strongest of all and deserves to lead off the entire book. Mel Barger ____________________________________ From: James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) The trend of worshiping the first part of the Big Book (the first 164 pages) might have started happening around the same time that Bill W. had to remove stories from the back of the book because the "recovered' alkie who was the subject of the story relapsed. Jim F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3150. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2006 10:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Shakey - this is a long reply The information you seek is qualified in the source book as "according to Clarence" or "Clarence believed." Clarence did much for which he should be complimented, but he also had another side that is not very complementary. I'd suggest that Clarence S was to Bill W what Al Gore is to George Bush today. No matter what the subject, it will be interpreted in a sinister manner. This is not to say that anyone is lying, rather it is what bias and antagonism produce. The unpublished manuscript of Bob P contains the excerpts below which are revealing. They are, for the most part independently, confirmed by other authors in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" and "Pass It On." Chapter 1 - When AA "Came of AGE" All was not harmony within the Fellowship, however, which accounted for a smaller-than-expected attendance at the St. Louis Convention. AA had grown up in two places simultaneously - Akron and New York, each with its own co-founder. So it is not surprising that there was a feeling of separateness - some would say a schism - between the Akron/Cleveland axis and the New York axis. The Akronites had clung longer to the Oxford Groups and were more conservative generally. Bill, the visionary, on the other hand pushed ahead with the writing and publishing of the Big Book, the establishing of a "Headquarters" office and, in the late 1940s, a plan for a General Service Conference. Dissent against this idea was led by Clarence S of Cleveland. With the help of Henrietta Seiberling (who now lived in New York), an "Orthodox Group" was formed to mobilize opposition to the Conference plan among AA groups nationwide. They took pride in the fact they would have nothing to do with Bill W, the "Headquarters" office or any form of organization of AA. Their most vigorous efforts took place after the first trial conference was held in 1951. The groups and members with the "Orthodox Group" view chose, not surprisingly, to boycott the St. Louis gathering where the Conference idea was to be ratified. Chapter 2 - The General service Board ... in 1946, Bill submitted to the trustees a "Code of Traditions for General Headquarters," and followed it up with a barrage of memoranda supporting its various points. These included ideas for fiscal policies, and specifically the creation of a sound reserve fund; the place of The AA Grapevine in the structure; and staff representation at the Board and committee meetings, with a voice in policy decisions. A 1947 memo added the most controversial proposal of all, that of having a General Service Conference to provide a linkage between the groups and the trustees as well as the headquarters office; and to bring the trustees into regular contact and direct relationship with the society. The Board's reaction was at first defensive and then outright negative to Bill's suggestions. Most of the trustees wanted to keep the status quo. They were confident of their ability to handle whatever situation might arise and saw no need to change. Bill, spurred into greater urgency by Dr Bob's illness and feeling personal frustration, pressed harder, resulting in hot and bitter debates. As Nell recounts, "Bill felt they wanted him to be only a spiritual symbol, confined to a kind of ivory tower where he couldn't stir things up." The trustees resented Bill's over-aggressiveness. Bill himself confesses, "Typically alcoholic, I turned passive resistance into solid opposition. A serious rift developed between me and the alcoholic members of the Board, and the situation became worse and worse. They resented my sledgehammer tactics. As the tempest increased, so did my blistering memorandums. One of them was an amazing composition which finished with this astonishing sentence: "When I was in law school, the largest book I studied was one on trusts. I must say, gentlemen, that it was mostly a long and melancholy account of the malfeasances and misfeasances of boards of trustees.' I had written this to the best friends I had in the world, people who had devoted themselves to AA and to me without stint. Obviously I was on a dry bender of the worst possible sort. This sizzling memorandum nearly blew the Foundation apart." The nonalcoholic trustees were "dumbfounded," and the old-timer alcoholic trustees hardened their opposition to the Conference plan. Four of the trustees even submitted letters of resignation; they were: LeRoy Chipman, Leonard Harrison, Bernard Smith and Horace C. Bill wrote each of them a conciliatory letter of apology, and the resignations were either withdrawn or simply not accepted at the next Board meeting. In fact, the only support on the Board for the Conference was from Bernard Smith. However, as the dispute wore on into 1950, Chairman Leonard Harrison - even though he did not see the necessity for a Conference - appointed a trustees' committee to study the matter with Bernard Smith as Chairman! Bill characterized this as "a most magnanimous and generous act on Leonard's part. Bern Smith had "a remarkable faculty for persuasion and negotiation." It took him only two meetings to convince the committee to "give the Conference a try." The full Board voted to go along. (See Chapter 11 for a fuller history of the Conference.) Chapter 3 - Groups in the US: How They Began and How They Grew East Central Region - Akron, Cleveland and Ohio The members of the new Cleveland group were uncertain what to call themselves and discussed several suggested names. "None of them seemed fitting," remembered Abby C, "so we began to refer to ourselves "as Alcoholics Anonymous" after the title of the Big Book. (On this tenuous fact Clarence S based a lifelong claim that he was, in reality, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He became perhaps the most controversial character in AA. He turned against Bill and aroused the Cleveland contingent to accuse Bill and Dr Bob of "getting rich" off the Big Book and the generosity of Mr. Rockefeller - which they had to disprove with a certified audit of their financial affairs. Clarence tried to organize a nationwide revolt against the Conference idea and threatened, unsuccessfully, to secede. He criticized Bill and the "New York office" vitriolically at every opportunity. Bill steadfastly refused to hold a grudge against him and in their correspondence "used soft words to turn away wrath." Much later, when they met at the International Convention in Toronto, they actually spent several hours together, reminiscing. However, Clarence, a popular speaker on the Steps and the recovery program, continued to raise hackles wherever he appeared by calling press conferences in which he was photographed full face with his full name, holding the Big Book which he claimed he wrote, and identifying himself as the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He asserted he was not bound by AA's Traditions because they were written later - and written by Bill. Clarence S moved to Florida in retirement, where he remained extremely active until his death in 1984. Chapter 9 - General Service Office - The AA Archives Bill had some underlying reasons for his intense interest in archival matters, beyond that expressed in AA Comes of Age namely, so that "the basic facts of AA's growth and development never can become distorted." By 1955, the facts were already being distorted by Clarence S and other oldtimers who were attempting to undermine Bill's place in AA's history. So Bill wanted the records available. Also Bill was visionary; he saw the sweep and scope of the Fellowship he had helped found and foresaw its significance as a social movement to be studied by future historians. Chapter 10 - The AA Grapevine He [Bill W] obviously loved the Grapevine. He gave it his full personal support from its very beginning, and whenever he spoke of it or wrote about it, it was with great enthusiasm and affection. And he devoted his time and effort unstintingly to helping it. For example, in 1946, he wrote a six-page single-space typewritten document in the form of a letter to attorney Royal Shepard about the corporate structure of the Grapevine and the concepts behind it. ... There were several reasons for this special interest. Bill perceived early that this was a means for him to communicate directly with the Fellowship without going through the Board of Trustees - especially when he was at odds with them on a given issue. And he used the Grapevine for this purpose frequently and effectively. The Traditions were born and grew to their present form in a series of articles in the latter 1940s, beginning with a 1946 piece entitled "Twelve Points to Assure Our Future." In 1950, a time when a majority of the Trustees seemed opposed to the idea, Bill and Dr Bob wrote in the Grapevine suggesting that the AA membership as a whole should take over, through a General Service Conference ... Chapter 11 - The General Service Conferences Never did the co-founder and de facto leader of a social movement ever try so early and so fiercely to relinquish his power and authority as did Bill W. Incredibly, only twelve years after the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous, nine years after the formation of the Alcoholic Foundation and eight years after the Big Book was published, Bill wrote the first of several controversial and even explosive memos proposing a General Service Conference. The story of his battle with the trustees over the issue for the next three years is related in Chapter 2 on the General Service Board. But finally in 1950, the trustees voted reluctantly to "give the Conference a try." Chapter 12 - The Big Book and Other AA Literature Bill said that more than 100 titles were considered for the book. The title that appeared on the Multilithed copies was "Alcoholics Anonymous." The first documented use of the name is in a letter from Bill to Willard Richardson dated July 15, 1938, in which he uses it to refer to the movement. Among the other possible titles considered for the book were: "One Hundred Men," "The Empty Glass," "The Dry Way," "The Dry Life," and "The Way Out." The choices quickly boiled down to "The Way Out," favored by most in Akron, and "Alcoholics Anonymous," favored by most in New York. Bill asked Fitz M, who lived near Washington, DC, to check both titles through the library of congress. Fitz wired back to the effect that the Library of Congress had 25 books entitled "The Way Out," 12 entitled "The Way," and none called "Alcoholics Anonymous." That settled the matter. The title of the book quickly became the name of the Fellowship as well. Clarence S later called himself the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, basing his claim on his being the first to use the name for a group. Which he probably was. But the fact is, the book Alcoholics Anonymous was already off the press, and the name had been used a year earlier to refer to the Fellowship as a whole. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shakey1aa@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:43 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Cc: hvyver@kvalley.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles My sponsor told me about AA having a "statement of principles" in 1950. He tells me they originally came out in 1948 but that no proof is obtainable from New York. Does anyone know about this? The statement of principles of 1948 is in Appendix G in Mitch K's book "How it Worked." Does anyone know why these were replaced by the 1950 statement of principles. Do they give General Service more power? Why does Royal S., the attorney who incorporated the Grapevine, on pg 199 say the trustees suppressed the statement of 1948? t/y Shakey Mike G. Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3151. . . . . . . . . . . . God as we understand Him From: Archie Bunkers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2006 12:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM." Is William James the source of the Big Book phrase "God as we understand him"?? Archie B. ________________________________ From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana) The passage which Archie quotes is from one of the four pamphlets we possess which were written by the early AA people in Akron. They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," "Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous," "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous. In the passage in question, which says "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM," it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron believed, not that William James wrote that line, but instead were agreeing that adding "as we understand Him" to the references to God in the twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief that people of different personality types needed different types of spirituality and different kinds of conceptions of God. "God as we understand Him" was not a quote from James however, as they give it in this pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what James was saying in the long quotation which they give from him, where James says "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine." The early Akron AA people were clearly saying in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists, could all join together in following the twelve steps and could understand why following these spiritual guides to action could lead us to the higher spiritual life. Here is that particular section of the pamphlet, which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that section, so the group can read in context what the early Akron AA people believed: _____________________________________ "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous" Part IV BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the nebulous side, we are offered more concrete guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality. It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even though it seems so at first. Let's examine what some of the fine minds of history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators -- have to say about religion. Note that none of them, with the exception of St. James, is a professional religionist. "Religion is the worship of higher powers from a sense of need." --Allan Menzies. "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine." -- William James. "Religion is the recognition of all our duties as divine commands."--Immanual Kant. "Religion is that part of human experience in which man feels himself in relation with powers of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba. "Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."--The General Epistle of James, 1:27. One cannot but be impressed with the similarity of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps. The Menzies definition is nothing more than a condensed version of the first three steps wherein we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our wills and lives over to that Power. William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM. Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven, wherein we are admonished to give our lives a thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and restitutions are without question divine commands. James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step, where we make use of our newly found powers. And all we need to do in the St. James passage is to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we were very definitely fatherless and widows. The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly. There is not an ethical religion in the world today that does not teach to a great extent the principles of Love, Charity and Good Will. The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one of our finest examples of helping one another. When a member of the family gets into trouble of any kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally around with advice, admonition, and even financial assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason there are not more Jewish members of AA. The family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic problem. Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler, and conduct themselves with personal dignity. Consider the eight-part program laid down in Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy, as exemplified by these eight points, could be literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal love and welfare of others rather than considerations of self are basic to Buddhism. The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit. Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility and serenity. St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order." We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3152. . . . . . . . . . . . Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2006 9:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was started February 1946 by Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being under 30 years of age they thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with the younger alcoholic. They started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA under 35 years of age. The group had several female members. They felt they could deal with members who were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as older members. They had parties, picnic's and other social events as well as the AA meetings. Several years ago,at a workshop that had several original group members, I remember Pat C saying that she and several other members of the group got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st Young Peoples convention.Most of those that attended the workshop had a love of life and of each other and were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety. The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, February 14th at 7 P.M. at 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania. Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups before that date. I think there may have been another group in the Los Angeles area. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike G. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3153. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2006 5:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 02:47 2/7/2006 , mertonmm3 wrote: > >Hi Art, > >In GSO Archives the early members were given 1 page questioneers to >fill out which included self reported sobriety date, occupation, ect. >I specifically recall one that Florence presumably submitted. Post 64 >on this site (by this sites founder) places Florence's date of entry >at March, 1937. This sound accurate but I'm missing my transcript of >this. A specific inquiry to NY regarding this questioneer will verify >the accuracy or inaccuracy as to the date if GSO responds. It would be >easiest to obtain from the microfische. > >As you know Florence made contact with AA through her non-alcoholic >husband who was a friend and buisness associate of Bill's. > >All the best, >-merton The West Baltimore Group's biographies of the authors of stories in the original manuscript and first three editions, comprised by Nancy O, I believe, has March 1937 as Florence R's dos, confirming the above. However, it is not a primary source and confirmation via the questionnaire on file at GSO would certainly be a better source. I come up against the "God said it. I believe it. That settles it," argument frequently. It is along the lines of, "My sponsor conducts Big Book studies all over the country. He has brought the Big Book alive for hundreds of people making their lives better. How can you say he is wrong?" This is an argument from authority, and I can see its fallacies but we deal with so much subjective and emotional reasoning, facts from primary sources are often ridiculed and rejected. How does one deal with this? Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3154. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2006 7:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide me with an electronic copy. Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot, having "done" my first 4 and 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3 months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the 1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct and personal guidance from Wesley Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out. Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt and pepper shaker, so as I would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental) hopelessness of the disease. Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold Disease!!!! Kind Regards, John R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3155. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First lesbian or gay AA member? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2006 9:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, I interviewed Barry L. by telephone and obtained the story about the homosexual black man who had contacted Barry about coming into AA. This is how it became included in "Pass It On." I think this happened in 1945. I don't recall any mention of how the man fared after being introduced to the fellowship. I had met Barry at G.S.O. in New York and considered him a good friend. We never discussed his being gay, but I do recall expressing condolences when his partner died. I also attended Marty Mann's memorial services at St. Bartholomew's Episcopal Church in New York City with Barry and a lesbian member who knew Marty. The service was conducted by the minister of the church and Yvelin G., who was an ordained Episcopal minister along with being Marty's close associate for many years at the National Council on Alcoholism. This service was about two months after Marty's passing. I had interviewed Marty earlier that year at her home in Easton, CT, where she also introduced me to her longtime partner, Priscilla Peck. Priscilla was then suffering from Alzheimer's but Marty was still taking care of her, and I had the feeling that they were a very devoted couple. I learned more about their relationship in the Browns' book and was also happy to hear that Priscilla was well taken care of after Marty died. It appeared to me that Lois W.'s best friends in the fellowship were Barry and Nell Wing (though Nell wasn't an alcoholic). Barry accompanied Lois on out-of-town speaking engagements and was otherwise very attentive to her. I believed that Barry was probably in her will, as was Nell, but he predeceased Lois. I was also familiar with Barry's efforts to obtain extra compensation for his work on "Living Sober." Lois reportedly endorsed this effort. I didn't feel he had any grounds for receiving additional pay, as he had taken on the project on a work-for-hire basis with no royalties specified. He used Bill W.'s royalties as a precedent, but I'm sure Bill negotiated the royalty agreement up front when he wrote "The Twelve and Twelve" plus "AA Comes of Age." His Big Book royalties were agreed upon earlier. I think Barry died before this matter was finally settled. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3156. . . . . . . . . . . . Experience, strength, and hope From: Penny . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2006 3:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Where did the phrase share our experience, strength and hope come from? In love and sobriety Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00 Roanoke Virginia Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is greater than the fear of letting go! Never assume some one knows you love them, take the time to tell them. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3157. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2006 9:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree that a reasonable period of dry time should be a factor as opposed to just when someone might have first showed up. Bill and Bob had two unsuccessful Akron, OH prospects (Dr McK and Eddie R) prior to Bill D being dubbed "AA #3." Plus there was the legendary "Lil." Using the 1-year criterion would favor Florence R for primacy and my vote goes to Florence. Jane S (presumed to be from Cleveland) predated Clarence S (the acknowledged Cleveland pioneer) by a year yet she is not recalled in Mitchell K's biography of Clarence S (based on interviews with Clarence). So I just don't know where Jane S fits other than being mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" along with "Lil." Cheers Arthur __________________________________ Message 3142 from: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] First woman was Jane S., not Florence Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who was the first woman working the program of what became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's sobriety?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3158. . . . . . . . . . . . "burning desire" From: hesofine2day . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2006 4:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have an idea that many of the expressions and conventions in AA these days have seeped in from NA and/or treatment centers. Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting? Also where did the expression "do the next right thing" come from? And finally saying "It works if you work it" after the Lord's prayer. ________________________________ From the moderator: Raymond I., who shows up in my book about old time AA in northern Indiana (see http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html) frequently tells newcomers "you must want it with a burning desire." He says he didn't make up this phrase, but that it was something that other people also said back in the old days. "Old time" is relative. Raymond came into the program in 1974, but was trained by the old-time black AA members who came into South Bend AA in the 1940's. He doesn't talk treatment jargon or use the jazzy NA phrases that everybody chants at the end of their meetings. So I think that in the form "you must want it with a burning desire," the words go back to a period before all the psychobabble and high school cheerleading type stuff. The great heyday of the treatment centers funded by insurance money ran from the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's approximately, so anything prior to the mid 1980's is probably not coming from that source. But can anybody trace "you must want it with a burning desire" back before the 1970's? "Modern AA" and "old time AA" are both relative terms, and in the earliest years, 1936 is very different from 1938, 1939 is very different from 1941, and 1946 is very different from 1948 or 1949. The 1960's were very different from the 1950's. AA was going through continuous change and development during that whole period. But it was working effectively and continuing to grow and expand at an enormous rate. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3159. . . . . . . . . . . . Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker From: sbanker914@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2006 7:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Art, I've been a member of AAHistoryLovers for a long time and enjoy the list very much. Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone). It turned out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of the tape very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude. She was more than middle aged when she made the tape and she had been sober a long time. She knew Dr. Shoemaker and I think was a member of his congregation. Most vividly I remember her telling of the years she had lived in a house in Santa Fe which she had filled up with needy women in early recovery. I wish I had copied the tape, but I didn't. I passed it along to another recovering woman. I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude. Susan Banker NYC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3160. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 7:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If no one else can find a hard copy, mine went with my other research materials to the Kirk Collection at Brown University. I trust it could be easily available: even though they have not yet sorted all my materials, the printed one's are indexed as to location (I think). If interested, contact David_Lewis@brown.edu or perhaps better, Tovah-Reis@brown.edu ernie k. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3161. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 8:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I guess that when a second printing is done of How It Worked I'll have o include all of Royal Shepard's letters and all of Henrietta Seiberling's letters relating to both Bill and the Statement of 1948. I prefer using actual documentation from the period in question rather than sanitized and committee reviewed official literature written and published years beyond the actual events. Clarence was merely a part of the Orthodox Group/Movement and not the founding member. The documentation and not the apologists bear that out. --- ArtSheehan wrote: > Hi Shakey - this is a long reply > > The information you seek is qualified in the source > book as "according > to Clarence" or "Clarence believed." Clarence did > much for which he > should be complimented, but he also had another side > that is not very > complementary. I'd suggest that Clarence S was to > Bill W what Al Gore > is to George Bush today. No matter what the subject, > it will be > interpreted in a sinister manner. This is not to say > that anyone is > lying, rather it is what bias and antagonism > produce. > > The unpublished manuscript of Bob P contains the > excerpts below which > are revealing. They are, for the most part > independently, confirmed by > other authors in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" and > "Pass It On." > > Chapter 1 - When AA "Came of AGE" > > All was not harmony within the Fellowship, however, > which accounted > for a smaller-than-expected attendance at the St. > Louis Convention. AA > had grown up in two places simultaneously - Akron > and New York, each > with its own co-founder. So it is not surprising > that there was a > feeling of separateness - some would say a schism - > between the > Akron/Cleveland axis and the New York axis. The > Akronites had clung > longer to the Oxford Groups and were more > conservative generally. > Bill, the visionary, on the other hand pushed ahead > with the writing > and publishing of the Big Book, the establishing of > a "Headquarters" > office and, in the late 1940s, a plan for a General > Service > Conference. > > Dissent against this idea was led by Clarence S of > Cleveland. With the > help of Henrietta Seiberling (who now lived in New > York), an "Orthodox > Group" was formed to mobilize opposition to the > Conference plan among > AA groups nationwide. They took pride in the fact > they would have > nothing to do with Bill W, the "Headquarters" office > or any form of > organization of AA. Their most vigorous efforts took > place after the > first trial conference was held in 1951. The groups > and members with > the "Orthodox Group" view chose, not surprisingly, > to boycott the St. > Louis gathering where the Conference idea was to be > ratified. > > Chapter 2 - The General service Board > > ... in 1946, Bill submitted to the trustees a "Code of > Traditions for > General Headquarters," and followed it up with a > barrage of memoranda > supporting its various points. These included ideas > for fiscal > policies, and specifically the creation of a sound > reserve fund; the > place of The AA Grapevine in the structure; and > staff representation > at the Board and committee meetings, with a voice in > policy decisions. > A 1947 memo added the most controversial proposal of > all, that of > having a General Service Conference to provide a > linkage between the > groups and the trustees as well as the headquarters > office; and to > bring the trustees into regular contact and direct > relationship with > the society. > > The Board's reaction was at first defensive and then > outright negative > to Bill's suggestions. Most of the trustees wanted > to keep the status > quo. They were confident of their ability to handle > whatever situation > might arise and saw no need to change. Bill, spurred > into greater > urgency by Dr Bob's illness and feeling personal > frustration, pressed > harder, resulting in hot and bitter debates. As Nell > recounts, "Bill > felt they wanted him to be only a spiritual symbol, > confined to a kind > of ivory tower where he couldn't stir things up." > The trustees > resented Bill's over-aggressiveness. > > Bill himself confesses, "Typically alcoholic, I > turned passive > resistance into solid opposition. A serious rift > developed between me > and the alcoholic members of the Board, and the > situation became worse > and worse. They resented my sledgehammer tactics. As > the tempest > increased, so did my blistering memorandums. One of > them was an > amazing composition which finished with this > astonishing sentence: > 'When I was in law school, the largest book I > studied was one on > trusts. I must say, gentlemen, that it was mostly a > long and > melancholy account of the malfeasances and > misfeasances of boards of > trustees.' I had written this to the best friends I > had in the world, > people who had devoted themselves to AA and to me > without stint. > Obviously I was on a dry bender of the worst > possible sort. > > This sizzling memorandum nearly blew the Foundation > apart." The > nonalcoholic trustees were "dumbfounded," and the > old-timer alcoholic > trustees hardened their opposition to the Conference > plan. Four of the > trustees even submitted letters of resignation; they > were: LeRoy > Chipman, Leonard Harrison, Bernard Smith and Horace > C. Bill wrote each > of them a conciliatory letter of apology, and the > resignations were > either withdrawn or simply not accepted at the next > Board meeting. > > In fact, the only support on the Board for the > Conference was from > Bernard Smith. However, as the dispute wore on into > 1950, Chairman > Leonard Harrison - even though he did not see the > necessity for a > Conference - appointed a trustees' committee to > study the matter with > Bernard Smith as Chairman! Bill characterized this > as "a most > magnanimous and generous act on Leonard's part. Bern > Smith had "a > remarkable faculty for persuasion and negotiation." > It took him only > two meetings to convince the committee to "give the > Conference a try." > The full Board voted to go along. (See Chapter 11 > for a fuller history > of the Conference.) > > Chapter 3 - Groups in the US: How They Began and How > They Grew > East Central Region - Akron, Cleveland and Ohio > > The members of the new Cleveland group were > uncertain what to call > themselves and discussed several suggested names. > "None of them seemed > fitting," remembered Abby C, "so we began to refer > to ourselves "as > Alcoholics Anonymous" after the title of the Big > Book. > > (On this tenuous fact Clarence S based a lifelong > claim that he was, > in reality, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He > became perhaps the > most controversial character in AA. He turned > against Bill and aroused > the Cleveland contingent to accuse Bill and Dr Bob > of "getting rich" > off the Big Book and the generosity of Mr. > Rockefeller - which they > had to disprove with a certified audit of their > financial affairs. > Clarence tried to organize a nationwide revolt > against the Conference > idea and threatened, unsuccessfully, to secede. He > criticized Bill and > the "New York office" vitriolically at every > opportunity. Bill > steadfastly refused to hold a grudge against him and > in === message truncated === IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3162. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 10:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The book Under The Influence By Dr. James Milam explains in great detail the benifits of vitamin B-complex for newly recovering alcoholics. I have never seen anything written on the subject by Bill W. but it is widely known that he was an advocate of Niacin which is a B-vitamin. Jim F. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, and more on new and used cars. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3163. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 1:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII perhaps these Grapevine articles will yield some answers... Philadelphia seems to have started in Jan 46 - their follow up article indicates hearing from/about several earlier Young People's groups though. San Diego Young Men's group is reported to have begun in Oct 46 -that 1948 article also mentions a Young Women's group also there, but does not date its beginning. Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote: > The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was started February 1946 by > Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being under 30 years of age they > thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with the younger alcoholic. They > started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA under 35 years of age. The > group had several female members. They felt they could deal with members who > were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as older members. They had > parties, picnic's and other social events as well as the AA meetings. > Several years ago,at a workshop that had several original group members, > I remember Pat C saying that she and several other members of the group > got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st Young Peoples convention.Most > of those that attended the workshop had a love of life and of each other and > were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety. > The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, February 14th at 7 P.M. at > 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania. > Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups before that date. I think > there may have been another group in the Los Angeles area. > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike G. > ----------------------------- (c) Grapevine, November 1946 What Do You Think About Youth Group In Philadelphia? From Philadelphia A group of A.A.s has been formed at Philadelphia for men and women, 35 years of age and under. This group was formed in January, 1946, with just six members, only three of whom had been dry the four months required for voting membership. This membership has since been expanded to about thirty, nearly half of whom have been dry over four months. We were under the impression when we began this group that we were trailblazers in the field, but reports from some of our visiting A.A.s have indicated that it has been tried before, although with very little success. We are not seeking pioneer credit in writing this letter, but rather, constructive criticism. We hope to hear from other groups throughout the country, giving us the benefit of your experience with young people and with such organizations as ours if they have been attempted. We were slow in getting started with our group and we are still proceeding with caution since it is apparent that our abilities lie more in the realm of prevention than in cure. Most young people have not been hurt badly enough or often enough, so they think, to feel that they are in any need of what we in A.A. have to offer. It is feared that for this reason we will experience more than a normal number of relapses, and that our progress will of necessity be slow. However, many of our later members have admitted that had it not been for this young group they would not have stuck to AA. So, we are doing some good. Let's hear from other groups. We would like your suggestions, advice, criticism and opinions on what we are trying to do. -- B.D.Mc. -------------------------------- (c) Grapevine, May 1948 Young Men Solve Meeting Problems from San Diego, Calif. In the January issue of The A.A. Grapevine there is a letter from Florence S. of Forest Hills, N.Y., asking for suggestions for the younger ages who need A.A. In San Diego, this problem has been met by the formation of the Young Women's Group (under 35), and the Young Men's Group (under 40). These groups have been very successful and seem to have tapped an unending source of new A.A.s. The young men seemed to have the idea, "Hell, if I was as old as John Doe, I'd quit drinking, too." It was rather disheartening to listen to someone tell of 20 years of hard drinking, and realize that we had five or ten years to go before we could even approximate the same low bottom. These "old goats" gave us the idea we had to hit several cures, try a few types of "goof balls," and have at least two or more trips to psychopathic wards, before we were ready for A.A. It gave us the feeling we couldn't make the Program because we hadn't been knocked around enough. The first accomplishment noted by the Young Men's Group soon became its strongest selling point: It had automatically raised the level for the young man's turning point. The older person's problems are greatly different from ours. There was no education on things alcoholic when they were our age, therefore they had to go down until their hand was forced. We have been fortunate in having the subject discussed in almost each magazine we read these days. Their immediate families are usually better established so far as understanding goes, because they have been married for a much longer period. The average young man is just beginning his family life and it is often harder to get his wife to go along in the new way of life. The young wife is more apt to resent the husband's attendance at closed meetings. The vast majority of our members are combat veterans with some horrible memories in their minds. The older members have the same memories but time does do a lot to erase the strength of such thoughts. Only a few of us have seen prohibition days, but a lot of us have put away a surprising amount of GI alcohol, de-icer fluid (that was what we distilled in the Air Corps, and it wasn't too bad then), saki, and other drinks that are native to Hawaii, China, the Philippines and other Pacific Islands. The younger man has an inherent cockiness that gives him a bit of trouble once in a while. There are quite a few problems that confront the young man of today; problems that the "old goats" must have had but have now forgotten. These problems and many others, we believe, can best be solved by a Young Men's Group. The first meeting of the Young Men's Group was held October 31, 1946, with six young men and 20 of the older men in attendance. The second meeting saw 15 young fellows and 23 "old goats" attending. The "old goats" stayed with us for three months, by which time we had such a large attendance it was necessary to form a new meeting. Left on our own, we changed to roundtable type meetings and outlawed any applause for the speakers. The newer men soon found it was quite easy to speak since it was no longer necessary to stand in front of an audience. Also, some of the quieter men found it easy to question the speaker since it wasn't necessary to address the chair. Questioning and general discussions led to deeper explanations, better understanding and, generally speaking, better working of the A.A. Program. The younger fellows strike right at the heart of any problem placed before them, and Heaven help the person who isn't serious when he offers a problem or question for discussion and possible solution. We let our hair down in no uncertain manner with no holds barred. There are times when we have asked for help from the older members because of their greater experience in handling some particular problem. On the whole, our group has been a great success. Some of the boys have naturally dropped by the wayside, but most of these have re-enlisted in A.A. and are now doing a splendid job. We have had quite a few drop out in favor of meetings nearer their homes, but this is a natural separation and we feel that our group has played a huge part in selling them on this new way of life. The temporary win and lose columns of A.A. will show our group with an exceptionally high percentage in the win section. For almost 17 months, our active member list has averaged about 50 men and the average meeting will find around 30 members attending. Holidays have not affected our attendance. Rather, it has been found that the men are glad that their meeting will be held on the eve of a big holiday. The third Thursday of each month we open our meeting to the oldtimers and they are very welcome guests. They do not speak unless the leader asks for any word they may have, or unless one feels he may have a message of special benefit for the group. All business discussion of any sort, clubs, parties or what have you, must be left until the A.A. meeting has closed for the evening. The only ironclad rule that is never excepted: NO WOMEN. We "charter members" are very proud of our group and its work, and certainly hope it will continue to grow long after we have passed on into the category of "old goats." -- W.B.A. -------------------------------- (c) Grapevine, July 1950 Bridging the Age Gap TODAY, more than ever, people are becoming aware and taking greater concern with the seriousness of our major public health problems. Alcoholism, our fourth largest Public Health Problem, has more increasingly been brought before the public mind. Many of the taboos and myths formerly attached to alcoholism are gradually being supplanted with realistic thinking and serious attempts toward prevention and the arresting of alcoholism in its earlier stages. One of the most important myths that has been shattered is that young people, who are still in their twenties and thirties cannot be suffering from this disease. The stories of numerous alcoholics, now members of Alcoholics Anonymous, has proven that in a large number of cases symptoms of this disease showed quite early in the period of active drinking. The pattern of "Blackouts," "Excusing a drink," "Becoming anti-social" and having "Morning drinks" had become strongly entrenched while the alcoholic was still a college student or in that age bracket. More, however, started to have difficulties such as "Solitary Drinking" and "Benders" quite early in their business careers and resulted in the loss of jobs, family, finances and other assets. Alcoholics Anonymous has taken a realistic look at the problem of alcoholism in relation to young people. In the last three or four years, groups whose specific aim is to reach the younger alcoholic have mushroomed throughout the country. In New York City alone, the Young Peoples Group better known as the "Thirty-Five and Under Group" has grown from a mere handful in 1947 to its present membership of some 75 to 100 alcoholics ranging in age from the twenties through 35. This group augments the older and more established groups and encourages its members to attend the meetings of older-age groups, so as to foster a more rounded and stabilized type of thinking about alcoholism and the therapy of AA. Every member of Alcoholics Anonymous learns, after attendance of the first few group meetings, that the Twelfth Suggested Step is a most important one in the prolonging of his or her sobriety. It is not easy for a young person in his early twenties or thirties to be of assistance to the sick alcoholic who has been drinking 20 or 30 years and many times leads to dangerous comparisons by the younger person. How much more useful this younger member can be when using his or her efforts in 'twelfth-stepping' a person of a comparative age level. Members of this age group are facing the many sided problems of living at relatively the same time and it is encouraging to know that other young people are hurdling similar difficulties with success. Most important is the comfortable feeling which comes of being able to discuss problems such as Marriage, resumption of studies, the inherent tendencies of alcoholism, its prognosis in relation to certain family situations and other factors which might otherwise endanger sobriety. It is important because of the feeling of mutuality and the lack of any taint of "Preaching," "Parental- Counseling," or "Scholastic Pedanticism." -- J.B., Brooklyn, N.Y. -------------------------------- (c) Grapevine, June 1958 YOUTH GROUP DISBANDS THE YOUNG PEOPLE'S GROUP of Boston, after a great deal of deliberation, has decided to disband. Ten years ago when the group was formed, there was a definite need for a Young People's Group. Today, young people are well represented in most groups. We feel that there is no need for a specialized group. The group is happy to report that most of its original members are active in other groups. It is encouraging to know that young people can enjoy happy productive sobriety such as these original members are experiencing. Roy L., Winthrop, Mass. -------------------------------- (c) Grapevine, September 1961 A Report on YOUTH GROUPS I ATTENDED the Fourth International Conference of Young People in AA in Milwaukee this year, and interviewed everybody present I could pin down. About 250 AAs, Al-Anon members and guests attended the three-day meeting in Milwaukee. AAs and Al-Anons of all ages from the Milwaukee-Chicago area mingled at the meetings with young AAs from as far West as Vancouver, British Columbia, and San Francisco, California; from as far East as New York. Three Australian members, in their thirties, sent their greetings and talks on tape. How young are these AAs, really? Among forty AAs who participated as speakers or on the host planning committee the average age is thirty four -- ranging from twenty-two to fifty-two. The average length of continuous sobriety is four years and nine months. When they first came to AA, two of these forty AAs were in their teens; twenty-two were in their twenties and fourteen in their thirties. Speaker after speaker told of dozens of arrests in their teen years. One girl had an eight-year prison record behind her when she sobered up eight years ago, aged thirty-four. When one thirty-one-year-old, sober eight years, said from the platform, "I had my seventeenth conviction on my seventeenth birthday," no one in the audience seemed particularly impressed. Many had started drinking at twelve, thirteen and fourteen. One said, "I was an alcoholic at thirteen, on skid row at fifteen." Another declared, "I know I was an alky at sixteen." One girl said, "I was on the streets at seventeen, and knew then I was an alcoholic." Commitment to mental hospitals in their early twenties seemed commonplace among these AAs. There were enough skid row alumni to form a group of their own. Another could have been made up among the former reformatory students. Warden John C. Burke of Wisconsin State Prison, Waupun, greeted a number of his former charges at the conference, including the chairman of the host planning committee, who introduced the Warden, with a straight face, as "my former landlord." The prison official told one of the sessions that probably eighty per cent of the young convicts in his institution have a drinking problem. Several speakers told of lying about their ages to get into armed services: "because in uniform I would have no trouble buying drinks." There were frequent stories of broken youthful marriages: "I thought it would settle me down." So it wasn't surprising to hear speakers say -- in private conversations -- they felt puzzled upon first coming to AA to hear older members say, "You're too young to be an alcoholic." Several reported being advised to "go out and do some more drinking. You're not old enough for AA." As one speaker put it: "I was leaving one of my first meetings when I overheard an older member remark, 'I've spilled more booze on my vest than that young punk has drunk.' Probably he had," continued the thirty-one-year-old good-humoredly, "but it was the alcohol I had drunk, not the liquor he had spilled, which made my life unmanageable." A twenty-eight-year-old, in AA three years now, demonstrated the seriousness of his alcoholism this way: "My drunken escapades made the papers so often that my first wife began to speak of it as my 'column.' Then they began not printing it, because my booze troubles just weren't news in our town any more." He laughed when he recalled the "deep freeze" older members gave him his first year. He recalled one older man who had said, "Never had the DTs? Sonny, go drink another ten years. You're no alky." The youngster said seriously: "Once the older fellows started laughing when I told them about a marriage problem I had. So, since they assured me I couldn't be an alcoholic at my age, I decided I must be a psycho. I kept seeing a psychiatrist, and drinking, for a whole year. Later I learned it isn't how long you have drunk, or how much, but what alcohol has done to your life that makes you eligible for AA." Often these young speakers told of being tolerated within groups of older members, but never being given any AA jobs to do. "Even now," said a fellow in his early thirties, sober over three years, "when I'm sitting in the clubhouse and a Twelfth Step call comes in, they say I'm too young to go on it." This lack of acceptance has also taken other forms. When a young people's group was formed in one city, an AA clubhouse used by several other groups refused to let the young people meet in one of its rooms, one young "founder" reported. "But then," added the member with a youthful grin, "the clubhouse found it needed money badly, so they let us rent space after all. And lots of them come to our meetings now." In fact, one fifty-five-year-old slipper attributes his re-grasp of sobriety to this "infant" group. Such stories were told in private conversation, not in talks from the platform. And only in one of the forty people I talked to did I find anything like anger about such treatment. In that one case, the stinging memory seems a goad that spurs this young fellow into ferocious energy for twelfth-stepping other young guys. These experiences and reactions are by no means universal among younger AA members in all localities, but they had a direct effect on a number of those I talked to in Milwaukee. Younger members began banding together in their own groups. In some places, naturally enough, young AA groups were started with high hopes and flood-tide energy, but little stable or wise leadership. Groups turned into social clubs, or other Traditions were broken, and groups died. Thus, members of large, healthy young people's groups point out that in some areas the youngsters may miss the encouragement and interest of older, wiser members, and most attend other AA meetings, where they find "immediate identification with other young alcoholics," as one man put it. "We find activity," said a thirty-eight-year-old who has been sober : nine years. "We are made members of the group steering committees, we twelfth-step lots of other younger people, and when any of us goes to speak at another group, six or eight carloads of us go along." "Older people always did scare me," one girl admitted. "I guess we just rebel more at our age, even in AA groups. In the younger groups, though, there is no temptation to compare my drinking with that of the fellows who reminisce about bathtub gin or speakeasies." Others took a different tack. "My young group helps me with current problems," one fellow said. "As a young guy I have lots of domestic, professional and other personal problems. Choosing a career and getting started in it, or starting a family, are not problems most older members are now facing. So we younger ones can face them together and help one another. That's in addition to helping each other stay sober, which must come first always, of course." (In many ways, this was truly more a "family" convention than other regional AA conventions I have attended. Many pretty, young, nonalcoholic wives, active in local family Al-Anon groups, helped at every stage in the planning, served as hostesses and guides, and talked at both AA and their own meetings. One family present had four Alateen members along. Its fifteen-year-old had painted the enormous, handsome blue-and-white "Fourth International Conference, Young People in AA" banner which decorated the main AA meeting hall for the Milwaukee sessions.) If any quality besides enthusiasm and love seemed a hallmark of the brand of AA at the Milwaukee get together, it was seriousness. Healthy, honest self-criticism, frank and open self-inventory and wide varieties of opinion, were evident constantly. A thirty-seven-year-old, sober six years, summed up the value of young people's groups this way: "We show younger alcoholics that they are not different just because they are young. We show others that you can be young, and alcoholic, yet still be sober and happy in AA. Booze doesn't respect youth any more than it does age." The Milwaukee Conference helped prove those facts in a big way and must have carried the message to many other young alcoholics, or their friends. Both of Milwaukee's big daily newspapers ran many stories about "Young People in AA." Local ministers and hotel officials also helped, as did many older AA members of the Chicago-Milwaukee area. A Milwaukee clubhouse cooperated and so did the secretary of the Milwaukee Central Office. Both Illinois delegates to the Eleventh General Service Conference supported the youth conference with their presence. Of the thirty-nine AA speakers on the program, only three talked specifically about young people's groups, or the Young People's Conference idea. Others told their own stories, as AAs do everywhere, or addressed themselves to the three theme words of the Conference: Gratitude, Obedience and Devotion. But do the supporters of these Canadian-American conferences of young people in AA really advocate the formation of more groups designated especially for young people? As might be expected among any collection of good AAs, opinions differ, and each seems to have a valid foundation in its holder's own individual experience. A pamphlet distributed at the Milwaukee sessions is entitled "Facts, Aims, Purposes of Young People's Groups in AA in the United States and Canada." It declares: "...there is a great need for at least one young people's group in every city so the young coming into AA can get together once a week and discuss their problems with other young people of their own age." Some young members, as we have seen, claim that such groups made it possible for them to receive and maintain a sobriety they found impossible in other groups. Most of them insist, though, that it is necessary for any young AA to attend other meetings in addition to those for young people. Other speakers in Milwaukee denied any intention to encourage the formation of special groups. "We just want to encourage the acceptance of young people in any AA groups. We do not favor any kind of AA segregation, by age or anything else. We do not seek to divide AA, or set up any separate organization. We just want to add an extra bond of fellowship to the cement of AA." Three young members in a New England state -- who were not at the Milwaukee Convention -- say they have found no need for special young people's groups. One twenty-three-year-old mother of two came to AA when she was eighteen. "I used to window-shop the fancy stores on Fifth Avenue, in New York, dead drunk, dressed in sloppy blue jeans and a filthy sweat shirt with university letters on it, so people would think I was a college kid! AA is not for kids; it forces us to mature and I didn't want to grow up. So I slipped around for two years before I really got sober. It happened in a regular group." Her husband was in trouble because of drinking at fifteen, swore off at eighteen because of "a car-theft charge." Shaking his head wonderingly, he says, "I thought I was too young to be an alcoholic!" He sobered up in a group full of older members. His buddy's first drinks were morning ones. "I reached under the bed for the jug before I got up, in a summer work camp," he said. "I was fifteen years old." Ten years later he came to AA and "slipped around at first. I didn't see any room in this outfit for a young man to 'get ahead' -- that is, get to be group secretary!" He laughs at that now. At the age of thirty he was chosen by the name-in the-hat method prescribed in "The Third Legacy Manual" as one of his state's two delegates to the Eleventh General Service Conference in New York. Do the Young People in AA conferences divert energy that could be better utilized in contributions to AA as a whole? Maybe so. None of the young members on the program in Milwaukee spoke of service to AA as General Service Representatives, local Committeemen, or G.S. Conference Delegates. (However, the Milwaukee Central Office Secretary says local youngsters are avid GSO supporters.) There were no Grapevine Representatives or contributors among them. Little was said of institutional work and nothing about correspondence with loners; lack of information about AA as a whole and its Third Legacy seemed on a par with what I've found in almost any other AA gathering not specifically devoted to those larger, more demanding aspects of worldwide AA service. There was at the Milwaukee gathering, though, an unusually intense awareness of AA Traditions and the need for Public Information activities by AA members. Newspaper reporters were especially well treated. Nonalcoholic guests included the executive director of the Chicago Alcoholic Treatment Center, a prison warden, and a high school principal. A rehabilitation counselor of Chicago's police department was also present by invitation. On the value of special young people's groups, here is what one central office secretary from a large city said: "These young people's groups are the lifesavers of AA in our area. They are actually open to members of all ages but the service jobs in them are held by those under thirty-five. It's from these young people that we get most of the best workers who keep our Central Office functioning. They're the ones we can count on most to take on Twelfth Step jobs, institutional work and public information tasks." One of the older "advisors" of the Milwaukee Conference said: "We noticed in my regular group that young people didn't stick with us, and we had a meeting to discuss it one night. We wondered if maybe wasn't our own fault. That's why we helped establish a young people's group and now do all we can to help these conferences. You see, it's great for us!" The Milwaukee Conference had three such advisors ("We spoke only when spoken to," grinned one of them), a practice established at the second youth conference, in Chicago in 1959, when the youthful sponsors of the get-together found themselves with some pretty tough problems to lick. Over objections and warnings by some of those present in Milwaukee, a permanent "Advisory Council" was formed there to help perpetuate the youth conference idea and accumulate a body of guiding experience. Two officers from each of the first four conferences make up the Advisory Council. They hope to establish a permanent fund to insure the financial solvency of future conferences (incidentally, all who went to Milwaukee, even the speakers, paid their own way); set up their own newsletter and public information activities, and set up a permanent address for the exchange of information about young people in AA. "We're not a movement, or a breaking away from AA," one conference leader kept insisting. "Our primary purpose is to help carry the message to younger people." Perhaps these young people have a genuine, valid need for a new AA service arm, in line with our Ninth Tradition: "... we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve." Perhaps not. The member I know who has been sober longest seems quite unperturbed by such new developments as the young people's conferences. He says, "Don't forget, we have a self-corrective factor in AA. These special groups either function in the framework of AA, or they fold up. don't know what we have to be afraid of, as long as we put ourselves truly in God's hands. We ought to do everything we can to encourage them, to help them communicate with alcoholics they can reach and we can't. They don't need our censure. We owe them our love." I felt quite at home among these younger members. I was impressed by the quality of their sobriety, their dedication to AA principles and work, their determination generally to add to AA, never to detract from it or divide it. They taught me a lot, and I'll be sentimentally grateful for a long time. One thing is certain: young people, thank God, are coming to AA in increasing numbers. They hold the promise and the power of our future leadership, and the older members must help them to utilize their youth, vitality and great potential. B.L., New York City IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3164. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? From: Steve Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 12:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey All, I have a cassette tape that is marked Sister Ignatia and Bill Wilson - Longbeach Convention. The recording is old and it's obviously Bill but I am looking for confermation that the womens voice is that of Sister Ignatia. Could anyone confirm that she did speak with Bill at that convention? Thanks, Steven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3165. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill D. From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 7:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mel and interested others, Back when I was doing research at GSO in 1976, Nell Wing for sure and, I think, trustee George G. told me that Bill D's story was not in the first edition because he wanted to be paid for it. At best third-hand hearsay to you, but . . . . ernie k. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3166. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understand Him From: Archie Bunkers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 4:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In reading Glenn C.'s response to my original e-mail, I see that I did not make myself clear enough. I realize that "God as we understand Him" is a paraphrase of what James was saying. The Akron AA's knew this too. Could this early referrence to James be an indication that whoever originated the Big Book phrase "God as we understand Him" (either Bill W. or Jimmy B. or whoever) been paraphasing William James?? My point is, that if this is true, the Big Book would be that original printed source of the phrase "God as we understand Him". Archie B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Archie Bunkers" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him > This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf > > "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that > we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM." > > Is William James the source of the Big Book > phrase "God as we understand him"?? > > Archie B. > > ________________________________ > > From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana) > > The passage which Archie quotes is from one > of the four pamphlets we possess which > were written by the early AA people in Akron. > They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," > "Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous," > "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics > Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled > "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous. > > In the passage in question, which says "William > James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should > believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM," > it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron > believed, not that William James wrote that line, > but instead were agreeing that adding "as we > understand Him" to the references to God in the > twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief > that people of different personality types needed > different types of spirituality and different kinds > of conceptions of God. > > "God as we understand Him" was not a quote > from James however, as they give it in this > pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we > understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what > James was saying in the long quotation which they > give from him, where James says "Religion shall > mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of > individual men in their solitude, so far as they > apprehend themselves to stand in relation to > whatever they may consider the divine." > > The early Akron AA people were clearly saying > in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the > teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and > freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who > followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great > Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and > Buddhists, could all join together in following the > twelve steps and could understand why following > these spiritual guides to action could lead us to > the higher spiritual life. > > Here is that particular section of the pamphlet, > which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that > section, so the group can read in context what > the early Akron AA people believed: > _____________________________________ > > "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous" > > Part IV > > BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the > nebulous side, we are offered more concrete > guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality. > It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even > though it seems so at first. > > Let's examine what some of the fine minds of > history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators -- > have to say about religion. Note that none of them, > with the exception of St. James, is a professional > religionist. > > "Religion is the worship of higher powers from a > sense of need." --Allan Menzies. > > "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and > experiences of individual men in their solitude, so > far as they apprehend themselves to stand in > relation to whatever they may consider the divine." > -- William James. > > "Religion is the recognition of all our duties as > divine commands."--Immanual Kant. > > "Religion is that part of human experience in > which man feels himself in relation with powers > of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and > makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba. > > "Pure religion and undefiled before our God and > Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows > in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted > from the world."--The General Epistle of James, > 1:27. > > One cannot but be impressed with the similarity > of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps. > > The Menzies definition is nothing more than a > condensed version of the first three steps wherein > we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power > greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our > wills and lives over to that Power. > > William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we > should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM. > > Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives > over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven, > wherein we are admonished to give our lives a > thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and > restitutions are without question divine commands. > > James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step, > where we make use of our newly found powers. > > And all we need to do in the St. James passage is > to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less > and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a > matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we > were very definitely fatherless and widows. > > The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly. > There is not an ethical religion in the world today > that does not teach to a great extent the principles > of Love, Charity and Good Will. > > The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who > will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the > great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social > justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one > of our finest examples of helping one another. When > a member of the family gets into trouble of any > kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally > around with advice, admonition, and even financial > assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason > there are not more Jewish members of AA. The > family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic > problem. > > Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the > poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler, > and conduct themselves with personal dignity. > > Consider the eight-part program laid down in > Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right > action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness > and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy, > as exemplified by these eight points, could be > literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or > addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal > love and welfare of others rather than > considerations of self are basic to Buddhism. > > The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit. > Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility > and serenity. > > St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order." > We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3167. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: God as we understand Him From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 4:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Archie On the matter of "God as we understand Him" it might be useful to examine more of the pamphlet "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous." The pamphlet is far more historically endearing than it is factually enlightening. Section IV of the pamphlet contains citations from Allan Menzies, William James, Immanuel Kant, James Henry Leuba and "The General Epistle of James" 1:27 (also called "The Book of James" in other literature). In the 2nd paragraph of section IV it states: "Let's examine what some of the fine minds of history-philosophers, psychologists, educators-have to say about religion. Note that none of them, with the exception of St James, is a professional religionist." Ouch! James is the brother of Jesus. He was a martyr for his faith and is the source of the maxim "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17). I had to wince at describing him as a "professional religionist." But this is the difficulty that occurs when a member's (or group of members') viewpoint is given the aura of factual history when it is no more than the substance of opinion. The pamphlet goes on to creatively cite from William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience:" "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine." The pamphlet then creatively interprets the citation as "William James, stripped of verbiage, states that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM." Well William James has been stripped of verbiage. He didn't quite state what is being attributed to him. An accurate and contextually complete citation would read: "Religion, therefore, as I now ask you arbitrarily to take it, shall mean for us THE FEELINGS, ACTS, AND EXPERIENCES OF INDIVIDUAL MEN IN THEIR SOLITUDE, SO FAR AS THEY APPREHEND THEMSELVES TO STAND IN RELATION TO WHATEVER THEY MAY CONSIDER THE DIVINE. Since the relation may be either moral, physical, or ritual, it is evident that out of religion in the sense in which we take it, theologies, philosophies, and ecclesiastical organizations may secondarily grow. In these lectures, however, as I have already said, the immediate personal experiences will amply fill our time, and we shall hardly consider theology or ecclesiasticism at all." As far as the assertion about what William James stated, I'd put it in the same niche as the description of St James being a "professional religionist." It's probably well intended but not at all well stated. It's much more poetic license rather than a concise summation of James' magnificent book. William James didn't write about a variety of understandings. He wrote about a variety of experiences and conversions (some occurring suddenly and some occurring gradually). His book certainly allowed the notion of individual understandings of God among the varieties of religious experiences but I wouldn't focus on William James as the primary source of the notion. In AA history, it is likely that William James' book helped to reinforce a notion already planted beforehand by Ebby T and the Oxford Group. Bill W was given the book "Varieties ..." during his last stay at Towns Hospital by either Ebby T or Rowland H. Something else occurred prior to that is likely more relevant and described in the Big Book (which is sometimes underappreciated for the rich history it contains). In Chapter 1, Bill W recounts a poignant and profound revelation for which Ebby T deserves credit along with the Oxford Group: [Big Book pg 12] "Despite the living example of my friend there remained in me the vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea. I could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with scores of men who felt the same way. My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last. It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a Power greater than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it? Of course I would! Thus was I convinced that God is concerned with us humans when we want Him enough. At long last I saw, I felt, I believed. Scales of pride and prejudice fell from my eyes. A new world came into view." This goes on to be repeated and reinforced throughout the remaining chapters of the Big Book. Choosing one's own conception of God also has the brilliance that the individual cannot blame anyone else for the understanding and that they are responsible for it - good or bad. As for the addition of "God as we understand Him" in the 12 Steps (along with "Power greater than ourselves") both Jim B and Hank P are credited with being the primary influence ("AA Comes of Age" pgs 166-167). Both claimed to be atheists at the time. Although James' book was popular reading in early AA, the Oxford Group's principles and practices (and Sam Shoemaker) carried much influence - probably more than William James even though he is mentioned twice in the Big Book. Other influences such as Emmet Fox in "Power Through Constructive Thinking" and "Sermon on the Mount" and a number of other authors and books cannot be excluded either for their influence in both NY and Akron. Dick B, in his writings about the Rev Sam Shoemaker, offers quite a number of enlightening citations from Shoemaker's writings - among them: "Security lies in a faith in God which includes an experiment. It lies in believing that God is" (Shoemaker, National Awakening, pp. 40-41). "When we come to believe in God at all, we come to believe in Him as having something definite to say about our lives. To believe in the fact of the will of God is only to believe in God in the concrete" (Shoemaker, Religion That Works, p. 55). "Opening their minds to as much of God as he understood, removing first the hindrance of self-will" (Shoemaker, Children of the Second Birth, p. 47). What I'm driving at is I don't see how the notion of "God as you understand Him" can be attributed to a single primary source. It has far too much of an ecumenical nature for conversion and redemption. The idea certainly has served AA well - except when degraded to the level of "door knob" and other things of that ilk. (Rule #62). Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Archie Bunkers Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM." Is William James the source of the Big Book phrase "God as we understand him"?? Archie B. ________________________________ From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana) The passage which Archie quotes is from one of the four pamphlets we possess which were written by the early AA people in Akron. They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," "Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous," "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous. In the passage in question, which says "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM," it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron believed, not that William James wrote that line, but instead were agreeing that adding "as we understand Him" to the references to God in the twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief that people of different personality types needed different types of spirituality and different kinds of conceptions of God. "God as we understand Him" was not a quote from James however, as they give it in this pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what James was saying in the long quotation which they give from him, where James says "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine." The early Akron AA people were clearly saying in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists, could all join together in following the twelve steps and could understand why following these spiritual guides to action could lead us to the higher spiritual life. Here is that particular section of the pamphlet, which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that section, so the group can read in context what the early Akron AA people believed: _____________________________________ "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous" Part IV BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the nebulous side, we are offered more concrete guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality. It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even though it seems so at first. Let's examine what some of the fine minds of history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators -- have to say about religion. Note that none of them, with the exception of St. James, is a professional religionist. "Religion is the worship of higher powers from a sense of need." --Allan Menzies. "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine." -- William James. "Religion is the recognition of all our duties as divine commands."--Immanual Kant. "Religion is that part of human experience in which man feels himself in relation with powers of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba. "Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."--The General Epistle of James, 1:27. One cannot but be impressed with the similarity of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps. The Menzies definition is nothing more than a condensed version of the first three steps wherein we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our wills and lives over to that Power. William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM. Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven, wherein we are admonished to give our lives a thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and restitutions are without question divine commands. James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step, where we make use of our newly found powers. And all we need to do in the St. James passage is to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we were very definitely fatherless and widows. The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly. There is not an ethical religion in the world today that does not teach to a great extent the principles of Love, Charity and Good Will. The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one of our finest examples of helping one another. When a member of the family gets into trouble of any kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally around with advice, admonition, and even financial assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason there are not more Jewish members of AA. The family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic problem. Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler, and conduct themselves with personal dignity. Consider the eight-part program laid down in Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy, as exemplified by these eight points, could be literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal love and welfare of others rather than considerations of self are basic to Buddhism. The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit. Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility and serenity. St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order." We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3168. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Experience, strength, and hope From: RDUBYA . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 8:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Penny, Pleae look at the last line of the Forward to the third edition of Alcoholics Anonymous. Roger W. Penny wrote: Where did the phrase share our experience, strength and hope come from? In love and sobriety Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00 Roanoke Virginia Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is greater than the fear of letting go! Never assume some one knows you love them, take the time to tell them. SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Love and Service Roger M Weed "be strong in the Lord, and in the Power of His might". Eph 6:10 --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3169. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 7:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It appears that someone has no idea what the book I wrote was based upon or the fact that it wasn't just Clarence's bio but an historical account of early Cleveland AA. Only a small part of the book was based upon interviews with Clarence. Dozens of oral histories of early AA members in AA archival repositories - including AAGSO - were used. Several thousands of pages of original documents from Cleveland and other archival repositories including AAGSO, Stepping Stones etc were used. A couple hundred hours of live, in-person and phone interviews of long-term members and friends of AA were used. Over 11 years of extensive research, writing and review went into the book. Your constant efforts to malign and discredit the book continues to illuminate your own agenda here. The name, Jane S. does not appear in any of the early Cleveland archival materials or dozens of meeting rosters or histories of all the original groups compiled by Norm E., the recording statistician from the Cleveland Central Committee in the early 1940's. Cheers > I agree that a reasonable period of dry time should > be a factor as > opposed to just when someone might have first showed > up. Bill and Bob > had two unsuccessful Akron, OH prospects (Dr McK and > Eddie R) prior to > Bill D being dubbed "AA #3." Plus there was the > legendary "Lil." > > Using the 1-year criterion would favor Florence R > for primacy and my > vote goes to Florence. > > Jane S (presumed to be from Cleveland) predated > Clarence S (the > acknowledged Cleveland pioneer) by a year yet she is > not recalled in > Mitchell K's biography of Clarence S (based on > interviews with > Clarence). So I just don't know where Jane S fits > other than being > mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" along > with "Lil." > > Cheers > Arthur > > __________________________________ > > Message 3142 from: > Tom Hickcox > (cometkazie1 at cox.net) > Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] > First woman was Jane S., not Florence > > Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then > > it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who > was the first woman working the program of what > became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's > sobriety?" > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3170. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 12:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The October 1944 issue of the Cleveland (Ohio) Central Bulletin announced the first Young People's meeting: "Age is no barrier if you wish to participate in the meeting of one of the newest groups, organized in October. The group calls itself the Young People's Group and it was formed by several of the younger A.A.'s...20's - 30's. But they stress the fact that they do not exclude 'oldsters' from their meetings." The group met on Wednesdays at 8:30 PM in the West Side Evangelical Hall on West 38th Street and Bridge. --- Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote: > The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was > started February 1946 by > Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being > under 30 years of age they > thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with > the younger alcoholic. They > started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA > under 35 years of age. The > group had several female members. They felt they > could deal with members who > were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as > older members. They had > parties, picnic's and other social events as well > as the AA meetings. > Several years ago,at a workshop that had several > original group members, > I remember Pat C saying that she and several > other members of the group > got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st > Young Peoples convention.Most > of those that attended the workshop had a love of > life and of each other and > were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety. > The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, > February 14th at 7 P.M. at > 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania. > Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups > before that date. I think > there may have been another group in the Los Angeles > area. > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike G. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3171. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "burning desire" From: Veda . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 9:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't know about the "burning desire" but "do the next right thing" comes from the story of Dr. Paul "Doctor Alcoholic, Addict" which is now named Acceptance Is The Answer". And the saying "It works if you work it" comes from the chapter "Into Action". Where it says "It works it really does". -------Original Message------- From: hesofine2day Date: 02/13/06 00:11:05 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "burning desire" I have an idea that many of the expressions and conventions in AA these days have seeped in from NA and/or treatment centers. Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting? Also where did the expression "do the next right thing" come from? And finally saying "It works if you work it" after the Lord's prayer. ________________________________ From the moderator: Raymond I., who shows up in my book about old time AA in northern Indiana (see http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html) frequently tells newcomers "you must want it with a burning desire." He says he didn't make up this phrase, but that it was something that other people also said back in the old days. "Old time" is relative. Raymond came into the program in 1974, but was trained by the old-time black AA members who came into South Bend AA in the 1940's. He doesn't talk treatment jargon or use the jazzy NA phrases that everybody chants at the end of their meetings. So I think that in the form "you must want it with a burning desire," the words go back to a period before all the psychobabble and high school cheerleading type stuff. The great heyday of the treatment centers funded by insurance money ran from the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's approximately, so anything prior to the mid 1980's is probably not coming from that source. But can anybody trace "you must want it with a burning desire" back before the 1970's? "Modern AA" and "old time AA" are both relative terms, and in the earliest years, 1936 is very different from 1938, 1939 is very different from 1941, and 1946 is very different from 1948 or 1949. The 1960's were very different from the 1950's. AA was going through continuous change and development during that whole period. But it was working effectively and continuing to grow and expand at an enormous rate. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3172. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "burning desire" From: j_oys5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 8:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Frank M. from Illinois early on in his story makes the statement "It works if you work it and it dont't if you don't. I do not know if he is the originator of this statement. As i have been told many times nothing in Alcoholics Anonymous is Original ! Jerry O. Southern MN. Area 36 Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3173. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker From: j_oys5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 8:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, sbanker914@ ... wrote: Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone). It turned out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of the tape very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude .... I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude. Susan Banker NYC ____________________________________________ It may just possibly be Gert B. If my memory serves me right I believe she was living in Iowa a number of years ago and I don't know if she is still living. I have three tapes by Gert B. Jerry Southern MN. Area 35 Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3174. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B From: Russ Hillard . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 12:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Well, that didn't take long.... See http://www.doctoryourself.com/hoffer_niacin.html - to pique your interest here is an excerpt: "The term vitamin B-3 was reintroduced by my friend Bill W., co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, (Bill Wilson). We met in New York in 1960. Humphry Osmond and I introduced him to the concept of mega vitamin therapy. We described the results we had seen with our schizophrenic patients, some of whom were also alcoholic. We also told him about its many other properties. It was therapeutic for arthritis, for some cases of senility and it lowered cholesterol levels. Bill was very curious about it and began to take niacin, 3 g daily. Within a few weeks fatigue and depression which had plagued him for years were gone. He gave it to 30 of his close friends in AA and persuaded them to try it. Within 6 months he was convinced that it would be very helpful to alcoholics. Of the thirty, 10 were free of anxiety, tension and depression in one month. Another 10 were well in two months. He decided that the chemical or medical terms for this vitamin were not appropriate. He wanted to persuade members of AA, especially the doctors in AA, that this would be a useful addition to treatment and he needed a term that could be more readily popularized. He asked me the names that had been used. I told him it was originally known as vitamin B-3. This was the term Bill wanted. In his first report to physicians in AA he called it "The Vitamin B-3 Therapy." Thousands of copies of this extraordinary pamphlet were distributed. Eventually the name came back and today even the most conservative medical journals are using the term vitamin B-3. Bill became unpopular with the members of the board of AA International. The medical members who had been appointed by Bill, felt that he had no business messing about with treatment using vitamins. They also "knew" vitamin B-3 could not be therapeutic as Bill had found it to be. For this reason Bill provided information to the medical members of AA outside of the National Board, distributing three of his amazing pamphlets. They are now not readily available." Regards, Russ HIllard JOHN e REID wrote: I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide me with an electronic copy. Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot, having "done" my first 4 and 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3 months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the 1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct and personal guidance from Wesley Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out. Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt and pepper shaker, so as I would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental) hopelessness of the disease. Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold Disease!!!! Kind Regards, John R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3175. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B From: Russ Hillard . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 11:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All - John's inquiry below has prompted me to look around a bit. The search has just started, but I have found that Dr Abram Hoffer knew Bill W and he is apparently the original source of Bill's interest in niacin (one of the B-complex vitamins) for the treatment of alcoholism. Dr Andrew Saul has written extensively on the importance of nutritional factors (including, but not limited to, B-complex vitamins) in the treatment of alcoholism. For a quick introduction you might look at http://www.doctoryourself.com/alcoholism.html If I turn up anything really historical I'll let you know. Best regards, Russ Hillard JOHN e REID wrote: I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide me with an electronic copy. Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot, having "done" my first 4 and 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3 months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the 1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct and personal guidance from Wesley Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out. Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt and pepper shaker, so as I would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental) hopelessness of the disease. Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold Disease!!!! Kind Regards, John R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, and more on new and used cars. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3176. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Experience, strength, and hope From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 5:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Penny "Experience, strength and hope" first appeared in the June 1947 Grapevine. That issue carried the introduction of what we today call the "AA Preamble." It was written by Tom Y, Grapevine's first editor and was based on the foreword to the 1st edition Big Book. The full text of the preamble and after-notes, as it read then in the June 1947 Grapevine was: Alcoholics Anonymous Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share, their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. A.A. has no dues or fees. It is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, and neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. The A.A. Program of Recovery is incorporated in The 12 Steps. The A.A. book of experience, Alcoholics Anonymous, and other literature, including The 12 Points of Tradition, are available through any group or the Central Office, P.O. Box 459, Grand Central Annex, New York 17, N. Y. The term "experience, strength and hope" was also incorporated into the Foreword to the 3rd edition Big Book. Not that long ago it became the title for the anthology containing the personal stories deleted from prior editions of the Big Book. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Penny Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 2:15 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Experience, strength, and hope Where did the phrase share our experience, strength and hope come from? In love and sobriety Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00 Roanoke Virginia Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is greater than the fear of letting go! Never assume some one knows you love them, take the time to tell them. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3177. . . . . . . . . . . . Self-Support From: sunnykhill12 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 2:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was there an article in the Grapevine or in some other publication that suggested a $1 per meeting donation in the meeting basket? If so, what year was it published. I am seeing my Area and District struggle financially because groups only have enough money to cover their own expenses with the $1 mentality. Any information would help - I have been asked to do a self-support workshop. Thanks, Sunny H. Little Rock, AR IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3178. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker From: David G. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2006 5:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Ms. Baker, Check out the link below to the biography of Gertrude Behanna. Text and Real Audio tapes are available. http://www.aabibliography.com/gertbehanna.htm#biog Dave Illinois USA Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:16:44 EST Dear Art, I've been a member of AAHistoryLovers for a long time and enjoy the list very much. Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone). It turned out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of the tape very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude. She was more than middle aged when she made the tape and she had been sober a long time. She knew Dr. Shoemaker and I think was a member of his congregation. Most vividly I remember her telling of the years she had lived in a house in Santa Fe which she had filled up with needy women in early recovery. I wish I had copied the tape, but I didn't. I passed it along to another recovering woman. I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude. Susan B. NYC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3179. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2006 12:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the Brown University archives there is a post card from a Camp Ouendake on Beausoleil Island in Gerorian Bay National Park that said it was for alcoholics and their families. It also said "no rowdysim, alcoholic beverages, dogs or firearms." No date on the card as I recall. My questions are: Were there other AA family vacation or living facilities? Have there been any AA flavored (or AA and Al-Anon) communitites (or small developments) established over the years? I ask because a few of we retired AA seniors have begun researching the possibiity of such a small retirement housing development for our families and we could certainly benefit from the lessons of others. So far, we have not found an AA related communtiy (or 12th step community) projects and we are looking at only http://www.cohousing.org/overview.aspx as a beginning guidline for discussion among outselves with a focus on sober retirement living. Pete Kopcsak Nashville, TN IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3180. . . . . . . . . . . . "More will be revealed" From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2006 12:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know where the phrase "More will be revealed" came from? Someone asked me the other day and I can't find it in the literature. Of course that might mean I haven't read something I need to have read anyway yet. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3181. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob`s Nightmare From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2006 10:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Attending an archives workshop we came across an interesting question, on page 175 there is mention of Dr. Bob`s father sending a doctor from their hometown to bring him back there. Which consequently kept Dr. Bob in bed for the NEXT 2 months before he could eventually venture out of the house.Suffering from the effects of his alcoholoic behavior certainly required some medical attention during this convelescence.We could not determine the DOCTORS name who brought Dr. Bob back to St. Johnsbury for this rehabilation attempt.Does anyone know of the NAME of this DOCTOR from St. Johnsbury,Vt. Inquisitively Grateful, Fred IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3182. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker From: Bruce A. Johanson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 1:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Or it could be this Gertrude? http://www.aabibliography.com/gertbehanna.htm Great story of her! Bruce A. Johanson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3183. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 2:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Pete, there is no longer a camp Ouendake on Beausoleil Island which is located in Georgian Bay, Ontario, This is a web site that can give you some information re. this Island http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/on/georg/natcul/natcul3_e.asp enjoy Joe N. _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greatcir@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:51 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living In the Brown University archives there is a post card from a Camp Ouendake on Beausoleil Island in Gerorian Bay National Park that said it was for alcoholics and their families. It also said "no rowdysim, alcoholic beverages, dogs or firearms." No date on the card as I recall. My questions are: Were there other AA family vacation or living facilities? Have there been any AA flavored (or AA and Al-Anon) communitites (or small developments) established over the years? I ask because a few of we retired AA seniors have begun researching the possibiity of such a small retirement housing development for our families and we could certainly benefit from the lessons of others. So far, we have not found an AA related communtiy (or 12th step community) projects and we are looking at only http://www.cohousing.org/overview.aspx as a beginning guidline for discussion among outselves with a focus on sober retirement living. Pete Kopcsak Nashville, TN IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3184. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "burning desire" From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 4:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is this just opinion? I have read Dr Paul's story again just now and see nothing in there that I feel resembles that quote and "It works it really does," seems a far cry from the mindless chant heard at a lot of meetings. At some of my groups, after the end of the Lord's prayer, we say......STAY. Chuck Parkhurst ______________________________ Responding to Message 3171 from "Veda" (mcveda at yahoo.com) I don't know about the "burning desire" but "do the next right thing" comes from the story of Dr. Paul "Doctor Alcoholic, Addict" which is now named "Acceptance Is The Answer". And the saying "It works if you work it" comes from the chapter "Into Action". Where it says "It works it really does." ______________________________ Which was a response to Message 3158 from (hesofine2day at yahoo.com) Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting? Also where did the expression "do the next right thing" come from? And finally saying "It works if you work it" after the Lord's prayer. ______________________________ From the moderator: I presume that Veda's reference to Dr. Paul's story is referring to the next to last paragraph, which says: "Acceptance is the key to my relationship with God today. I never just sit and do nothing while waiting for Him to tell me what to do. Rather, I do whatever is in front of me to be done, and I leave the results up to Him; however it turns out, that's God's will for me." So on the basis of those two references to the Big Book, it looks like we would have to say that "It works if you work it" is not a precise quotation from the Big Book, although it has some parallels to the phrase "It works it really does." I would see it myself as more of an attempt to summarize an important part of the message at the beginning of chapter 5 in the Big Book, where it says things such as "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path" and "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it -- then you are ready to take certain steps." And "do the next right thing" is also not a precise quotation from the Big Book, although it could be regarded as a summary of the next to last paragraph of Dr. Paul's story. The problem here is that, if "do the next right thing" was already circulating as an AA slogan prior to the publication of the third edition of the Big Book in 1955, then what Dr. Paul said could have been an expansion of the idea contained in that AA slogan instead of vice versa. So far though, none of our members have given us any information about WHEN "burning desire" or "do the next right thing" or "it works if you work it" first started being used as slogans in AA circles, let alone who might have devised these phrases. Until we have at least some approximate dates, we are, as Chuck points out, just guessing. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3185. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "More will be revealed" From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 5:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cheryl Though the phrase "more will be revealed" is heard way too frequently at AA meetings, it appears nowhere in the basic text of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. It is another example of many people at our meetings claiming "the Big Book says," when in fact our textbook says nothing of the sort. The closest thing to that expression in our book is on pg 164 and states ....."God will constantly disclose more to you and to us" The way my sponsor explained it to me when I first got sober was, I need not wait for more to be revealed (when?!?) as opposed to knowing that God will constantly disclose things to me, providing I practice all the principles that the program requires (our steps). It is also my understanding that the phrase you quoted is in the basic text of a book from another 12-step program, Narcotics Anonymous. Maybe someone more familiar with that fellowship's literature can confirm that. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3186. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "More will be revealed" From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 8:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cheryl, I'd say that this was probably suggested by the next to last paragraph in "A Vision for You," in the Big Book. It says, "We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order." Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3187. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 8:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The October 1944 Cleveland, Ohio Central Bulletin mentions formation that month of "The Young People's Group." Was this the first such group? I do not know. In a talk in Akron, historian Ernie Kurtz said that historians refer to the word "first" as the "f-word." _________________________ From the moderator: October 1944 is earlier than the other citations we have received from members of this group. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3188. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 10:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 23:22 2/13/2006 , Mitchell K. wrote: >The October 1944 issue of the Cleveland (Ohio) Central >Bulletin announced the first Young People's meeting: >"Age is no barrier if you wish to participate in the >meeting of one of the newest groups, organized in >October. The group calls itself the Young People's >Group and it was formed by several of the younger >A.A.'s...20's - 30's. But they stress the fact that >they do not exclude 'oldsters' from their meetings." > >The group met on Wednesdays at 8:30 PM in the West >Side Evangelical Hall on West 38th Street and Bridge. > Mitchell, Did the meeting survive, as in continue? The reason I ask is I know of several similar meetings in my local area that were started but never "took" and petered out after a relatively brief time, on the order of months. Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3189. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understand Him From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 10:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Big Book page 12 "My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, 'Why don't you choose your own conception of God?'" Curious how seldom when this topic gets discussed that Bill's grandfather's influence, from just two pages earlier, is forgotten. Big Book page 10 " He talked for hours. Childhood memories rose before me. I could almost hear the sound of the preacher's voice as I sat, on still Sundays, way over there on the hillside; there was that proffered temperance pledge I never signed; my grandfather's good natured contempt of some church folk and their doings; his insistence that the spheres really had their music; but his denial of the preacher's right to tell him how he must listen; his fearlessness as he spoke of these things just before he died; these recollections welled up from the past. They made me swallow hard. " IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3190. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill D. From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 9:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Ernie, In November, 1952, I spent the better part of a day with Bill D., who was AA Number Three. I don't believe he withheld his personal story from the First Edition because he wanted to be paid for it. He was not that kind of a guy. My recollection is that he was not excited by the book project and may have even thought it wasn't necessary. But he did tell me that Bill W. had come out to Akron and recorded his story for the next edition. I believe today that the Bill D. story we see in the Big Book was written by Bill W. from the information he taped and wouldn't have been produced if Bill W. hadn't taken the initiative in recording Bill D.'s story. Of course, Bill W. would have then cleared it with Bill D. for accuracy, etc. For Bill W., that probably meant lugging one of those old-fashioned reel recorders all the way out to Akron, but it was something he obviously considered necessary. Bill D. was a kindly, friendly man who was much loved as the Grand Old Man of AA in Akron, a role he seemed to have following Dr. Bob's death. But he didn't have Bill W.'s drive and vision. Maybe that's just as well, as he never seemed to create trouble for Bill and Bob in their efforts to enlarge the fellowship. He did have mixed feelings about Bill W., and may have felt that Bill was getting too much credit. I had heard him called "The Guinea Pig," but it was clear he didn't like this term. It turns out that Bill W. used it one day when they were all on the platform at a large meeting, and he appeared to resent it. Bill W. also told me that Bill D.'s feelings about him were "ambivalent," so Bill D. wasn't entirely in Bill W.'s corner. But he did cooperate with Bill W. on important matters and was even the first delegate from the Akron area. Bill D. had a marveous wife, Henrietta, whose prayers and support were probably a factor in his getting sober. She was a matron at the Akron City Workhouse, and I even visited her in her office there in 1958. She was still living in 1980 just after "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was published. I went out to visit her and even read portions of the book that applied to her and Bill D. By that time, she was blind and living with her son and his family. I find myself almost in tears when I recall that visit. Mel Barger _____________________ Responding to the message from Ernie K.: Mel and interested others, Back when I was doing research at GSO in 1976, Nell Wing for sure and, I think, trustee George G. told me that Bill D's story was not in the first edition because he wanted to be paid for it. At best third-hand hearsay to you, but . . . . ernie k. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3191. . . . . . . . . . . . Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 9:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi) preamble, Dallas, Texas. She wrote the story "Flower of the South." She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas. Anybody have any idea how many different AA talks there are by her which are still obtainable?? LD Pierce editor aabibliograpy.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3192. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Self-Support From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2006 9:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Sunny, Maybe you are thinking of the current article, "A Buck in the Basket" in the February 2006 Grapevine. The author, Jack H., is actually suggesting two bucks, in view of growing inflation and rising expenses for groups. Jack is a friend of mine and worked real hard to get that article published. I am still having a hard time upping my contributions to $2, but I'm sure I'll get to that point soon. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3193. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? From: Mike and Sarah . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 10:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Steve - Yes, she did. Mike D. Houston, TX SETA Archives __________________________ From: Steve Leeds Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? Hey All, I have a cassette tape that is marked Sister Ignatia and Bill Wilson -Longbeach Convention. The recording is old and it's obviously Bill but I am looking for confermation that the womens voice is that of Sister Ignatia. Could anyone confirm that she did speak with Bill at that convention? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3194. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Self-Support From: Jerry Oys . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 7:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- sunnykhill12 wrote: > Was there an article in the Grapevine or in some > other publication > that suggested a $1 per meeting donation in the > meeting basket? If > so, what year was it published. I am seeing my Area > and District > struggle financially because groups only have enough > money to cover > their own expenses with the $1 mentality. > Any information would help - I have been asked to > do a self-support > workshop. > Thanks, > Sunny H. > Little Rock, AR > > There are many Grapeviine articles addressing Self -Support written by Bill W. and I belive others. If you subscribe to the Grapevine for $10.00 a year you can acess the Grapevine Digital archives and do a search on Self- Support and they will all popup. > > FYI - The idea or thought suggesting the putting of $2.00 in the basket as it was passed around the room or table appeared in a Grapevine Article in 1950 by Bill. > > In the time period of 1986 / 1990 and possibly later GSO produced a green binder titled Self Support. It contained various pieces of materiasl. The most significant piece to me is the piece titled The Challage of the Seventh Tradition. GSO also prouduced a flyer showing a hand with 2 $1.00 bills haging from it. Which believe was in the same time period. I have the binder in my posession. I hope this helps you in your venture. Sometimes Quickly ,Sometimes Slowly. In I Alcoohlics Anonymous have learned from my experience that We can't hear until we can hear and We can't see until we can see! In Service Jerry Southern MN. Area 36 Archivist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3195. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: movie slang From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 8:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Never heard the cliche, "Do the next right thing" until the Spike Lee movie "Do the Right Thing" was released in 1989. It's street slang, the type commonly used by professional athletes as they're leaving their third halfway house. No God. No Steps. Just me, deciding what the next right thing might be. Managing my life again, just like the old days. john lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3196. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "More will be revealed" From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 10:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chapter Ten of Narcotics Anonymous, commonly referred to as the Basic Text, is titled More Will Be Revealed. It is the last chapter in Book One of the text, which contains the program of Narcotics Anonymous. Book Two contains the personal stories. Chris Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3197. . . . . . . . . . . . The Late Liz From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2006 4:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII i checked out this web site and also the IMB (internet movie database). the movie "the late liz" indeed was made in 1971 and starred ann baxter (extremely well acclaimed actress as would be attested by our history lover elders). i've never seen the movie and so my question is (and i'm asking anyone), should this movie be added to our history lover's database. it would seem so. any input would be appreciated - direct them to me as to not clog up the group mail (billyk3@yahoo.com). thanks - be good to yourselves, billyk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3198. . . . . . . . . . . . Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2006 2:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold time after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York. I learned that he coined the expression... "One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"... I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his life... Does anyone know more about him? I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall quietly weeping alone in my room. It keeps getting better Gene in Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3199. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Self-Support From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2006 5:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII i have to comment here. one of my sponsors once told me that since i was one of the lucky ones that didn't lose the wife, family, house etc., and that i was 'doing okay', i should put in the basket what i spent of booze. well... if that were the case, our clubhouse would be adding a mighty fine addition to the building. but i read that article too (in grapevine, feb 2006) and i thought it was well written and really brought home the fact that inflation really has been ignored. and maybe, people should up their donation to $2 if just once in a while. but, something i learned from a close friend in the fellowship. i give exactly a dollar a day. if it's been 3 days since my last meeting, i give $4 (which is usually a five cause i don't have four ones). and i always look for the opportunity to do a little more like buy the newcomer a big book or support a clubhouse activity (any clubhouse-not just mine). i can't put a price on my sobriety, but the fact remains that in this world, rent, coffee, materials, etc., all costs money. that fellow who wrote the grapevine article said it all at the end. "i am responsible......" and i accept that responsibilty with a glad heart. billyk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3200. . . . . . . . . . . . Silkworth''s theory From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2006 2:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi history lovers, can you please tell us if any of the other doctors at the Charles Townes Hospital agreed or disagreed with Dr Silkworth's allergy theory, thank you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3201. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "More will be revealed" From: Julie . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 3:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Found it in alanon book. "How Alanon Works" on page 68 under Easy Does It "If the time is right, more will be revealed." Chris Budnick wrote: Chapter Ten of Narcotics Anonymous, commonly referred to as the Basic Text, is titled More Will Be Revealed. It is the last chapter in Book One of the text, which contains the program of Narcotics Anonymous. Book Two contains the personal stories. Chris Raleigh, NC SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3202. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? From: rfuhrman1011@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 10:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.440.com/favesw.html this is web site about the history of AM radio and mentions Big Joe Rob Fuhrman Huntington, IN -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:47 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold time after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York. I learned that he coined the expression... "One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"... I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his life... Does anyone know more about him? I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall quietly weeping alone in my room. It keeps getting better Gene in Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3203. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: movie slang From: jocis007@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2006 11:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you assume them." from chapter 7 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3204. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 9:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi LD Based on research I've been doing for the last few years, I'm fairly certain that the so-called "Esther's Preamble" should not be attributed to her as her invention. If you are referring to what is also sometimes called the "Texas Preamble" I don't believe that my home state of Texas should be credited with its invention either. As a resident of Arlington, TX I don't pass this on with enthusiasm but I'm doing extensive research for publication of a paper on how AA started in Fort Worth and Dallas. There is much myth surrounding this. A January 1945 article was submitted to the Grapevine by Merle S of Dallas, TX saluting Esther E as starting AA in Dallas upon her arrival in 1943. However, evidence exists, in GSO Archives news-clipping scrapbooks that AA started in Dallas as early as 1941. Due to the impact of mobilization for World War II, early Dallas pioneers were eventually relocated elsewhere through war work or service in the armed forces. Esther E certainly was a pioneer in revitalizing AA in Dallas. A woman she sponsored, by the name of Anne T, similarly helped revitalize AA in Fort Worth during the difficult war years of the early to mid-1940's. Ester was also very instrumental in helping to start AA in San Antonio. A remarkable series of correspondence between Esther and Bobbie B, AA's second national Secretary, provide a detailed history of the development of AA in Dallas and Fort Worth. One thing that can be definitely stated about Esther is that she was a remarkable woman and a natural historian. Her correspondence with Bobbie has revealed information I've been searching for about 3 years now. There is no doubt in my mind that Esther's correspondence provides the definitive history for how AA originated in the Fort Worth/Dallas metroplex (as well as a few other Texas locations). In regard to the preamble, several variations are attributed to different locations in the US. Barring the discovery of dated source documents, the establishment of primacy is probably beyond possibility at this point in time. The preamble contains material from the "Akron Manual" (c 1940)as well as extracts from the 1st edition Big Book Foreword and basic text. The earliest genuine copy of the preamble I've been able to locate locally is in a 1946 document in the archives of the Harbor Club in Fort Worth, TX. The preamble originated some years prior to that but I haven't been able yet to locate an earlier original or facsimile. I'll send you some additional material to your web site email address unless you want me to send it to a different address. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diazeztone Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:57 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Ester's preamble, Dallas, Texas I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi) preamble, Dallas, Texas. She wrote the story "Flower of the South." She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas. Anybody have any idea how many different AA talks there are by her which are still obtainable?? LD Pierce editor aabibliograpy.com Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3205. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 1:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gene: I've heard that Big Joe's show was underwritten by the Salvation Army and was one of the first call-in shows on radio (you only heard his voice). It promoted people helping one another and had a strong spiritual angle. This is Rosenfeld's obituary as it appeared in The New York Times: ------------------- Published: December 19, 1987 LEAD: Joe Rosenfield Jr., who was the host of a radio talk show called ''The Happiness Exchange'' for many years, died on Nov. 22 at a nursing home in Falmouth, Me., after a long illness. He was 86 years old. Joe Rosenfield Jr., who was the host of a radio talk show called ''The Happiness Exchange'' for many years, died on Nov. 22 at a nursing home in Falmouth, Me., after a long illness. He was 86 years old. Mr. Rosenfield, who was known as Big Joe, did a nighttime show during what was called ''the insomnia stretch'' from 2 to 5 A.M. Broadcast over several New York radio stations from 1949 to 1962, the show raised large sums in contributions by letting the unfortunate air their troubles. Born and raised in Tennessee, Mr. Rosenfield began his first nighttime program with his son, Joe 3d, in New Orleans. His nickname, Big Joe, evolved to differentiate him from his son. Mr. Rosenfield is survived by his second wife, Ruth, of Falmouth, Me.; a son, Joe, of Acton, Mass., and a daughter, Dorothy Fisher- Smith, of Ashland, Ore.; six grandchildren, and six great- grandchildren. --------------- I didn't listen to Big Joe, myself. I'd listen to Jean Shepherd on WOR, keeping the volume low so my parents wouldn't know I was up so late on a school night. I'll never forget how Shepherd would tell you to put your radio on the window sill and turn the volume all the way up; then he would "hurl an invective" at your neighbors. Something like, "I can't stand this neighborhood. Take your goddamn wash off the line!!" Just the sort of thing for a somewhat demented 14 year-old. John K in Charlotte --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" wrote: > > When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and > listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold time > after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a > show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York. > I learned that he coined the expression... > "One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"... > I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his > life... > Does anyone know more about him? > I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall quietly > weeping alone in my room. > > It keeps getting better > Gene in Westchester > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3206. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2006 2:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Texas Preamble" Art: One thing I vaguely remember is that the so called "Texas Preamble" appeared once in the Grapevine several years ago. I do not remember the month or year, but, I remember reading it there. You might know something of it or want to look into it. tmd IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3207. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript From: Mike and Sarah . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 12:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 2-20-06 Dear MK - Just finally getting to read a great deal of saved AA History Lovers E-mails. Wow. Just a question. Regarding an e-mail from you on January 26,06 regarding galleys, Cornwall, Living Sober, etc. My question, regarding the friend of Barry. Maybe also even just yourself? I have been wondering about the 'Bill's Birthday talk' that he gave at NY Intergroup every year. Especially the final talk of Bill at the NY Intergroup event which was held on or close to his own birthday... '69, '70? Do you, or did Barry and/or his friend know if a recording of this event ever was made? Was / is it an item held in the archives of GSO? I have asked them about it...no response as of yet. OK. So, I guess that is as about as simple as I can put it across to you. Regardless, thanks for being part of this. Mike D. Houston, TX SETA Archives Committee -----Original Message----- >From: "Mitchell K." >Sent: Jan 26, 2006 4:38 AM >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript > > > > From what I have learned, this >> one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the >> Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in >> February 1939--- > >Just a quick geographical correction. The Cornwall >Press was located in Cornwall, NY located in Orange >County, NY. The first edition printings were done >there as were several of the 2nd edition printings. >The company merged with another and from what I >understand, further printings were done in New Jersey. > >When the galleys were gone over, it was done by Bill >W., Hank P., Ruth Hock and Dorothy Snyder who came up >to Cornwall to go over them. > >As far as Barry's family giving anything to AAWS, due >to a history of problems, litigation and pending >litigation over royalties for Living Sober They had no >desire to give AAWS anything. There was a great deal >of animosity generated. I remember going over all the >drafts for Living Sober which were housed in a >friend's apartment in Connecticut. This friend had >many of Barry's materials as well as another friend's >materials which were left to him (Ron was involved >with many of the private recordings of Bill W. and >Bill speaking at his anniversaries in NYC - I think >close to 200 of them and left them to Dennis when he >passed on). I have no idea where these materials might >be today (I do have some guesses). Dennis was a >collector of AA memorabilia and had a small but >amazing collection. There were some great "spook", LSD >and vitamin B tapes but as I was only allowed to >listen to portions of them, not make copies or take >notes, unless they surface again, the material >contained in them might be lost. > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3208. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 8:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I saw one in the Houston Intergroup office years ago. "diazeztone" (eztone at hotmail.com) wrote in saying: I am looking for a copy of Ester's preamble, Dallas, Texas. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3209. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Self-Support From: Azor521@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2006 8:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the February 2006 AA Grapevine on page 21 is an excellent article titled, "A Buck in the Basket?" The on line Grapevine archives are awesome! _www.aagrapevine.org_ (http://www.aagrapevine.org) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3210. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Late Liz From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 5:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a copy of this movie and just watched it for the first time. Here is my revue: Woman drinks Woman drinks more (always has a drink in each hand) Woman drinks non-stop with fake friends Woman cheats on second husband Woman drinks Woman remarries Woman experiences alcoholic progression Woman's alcoholism pushes away older son, younger son forgives and stays with her Woman drinks Woman's alcoholism pushes away third husband Woman experiences alcoholic insanity and bewilderment Woman tries to commit suicide by taking many sleeping pills with booze Woman has a spiritual experience while near dead Woman awakes from the coma Woman fights off urges to drink and begins to annoy fake friends with talk about God Woman's conversion experience leads her to a church thanks to her youngest son Woman commits herself to being involved with the church Woman begins to help a friend who also has a drinking problem thanks to the help of her new pastor The End Just Love, Barefoot Bill -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of billyk Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 4:40 AM To: bajohanson@charter.net; History Lovers Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Late Liz i checked out this web site and also the IMB (internet movie database). the movie "the late liz" indeed was made in 1971 and starred ann baxter (extremely well acclaimed actress as would be attested by our history lover elders). i've never seen the movie and so my question is (and i'm asking anyone), should this movie be added to our history lover's database. it would seem so. any input would be appreciated - direct them to me as to not clog up the group mail (billyk3@yahoo.com). thanks - be good to yourselves, billyk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3211. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "burning desire" From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2006 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi group, Here's a 'burning desire' to reply to this post before its thread goes away. "Do the right thing" is a movie, the title copyrighted by Spike Lee's film company. AA's Eleventh Step, "praying only for knowledge of His will and the power to carry it out" has had much input and interpretation over our years of existence. Our early founders spoke of the search for the 'next, best, indicated course' of action, specifically relating to Step Eleven. I agree with our Moderator, Glenn, that "old time" is a relative concept on this phrase---not many speak the same way as was spoken in the late 1930s. From recollections of Ruth Hock's daughter, that exact phrase "next, best, indicated" was used verbatim and regularly. The phrase evolved into the 'next, best, thing' that I first heard many years ago, too, but let's remember that it comes from Step Eleven. "It Works If You Work It!" is part of our ever-longer chants that follow a meeting closing...Phrases like "keep coming back" usually start it, and 'keep coming back, it works if you work it, sober!' are the current norm, with arms waving and all...From my own experience, this "gospel shout" comes from treatment centers and nowhere else, and it took hold in AA in the early 1990s. I don't believe it has caused any harm, but at face value it's pretty silly. Just think, if this stuff was going on in the 1950s, the Hokey-Pokey dance would have fit just fine with the closing chant! "Does anyone have a 'burning desire' to share" or "to add more thoughts" is a normal question a meeting chair can ask before closing an AA meeting. I still hear it a lot. Rick, Illinois ___________________________ A comment by the moderator: Rick, What makes the idea of the whole AA group dancing what would become known as the "Higher Power Hokey-Pokey" in a circle after the closing prayer, and finishing up with a shouted "and that's what it's all about!" is that I can halfway imagine it actually happening! Turn backward, O time, in thy flight! Your friend, Glenn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3212. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas From: jeanne avolio . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2006 7:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This was sent to me about 7 months ago, I dont know if it's the same one your talking about here,thought i'd share it with the group..I had it read at my birthday meeting this past aug..Many were surprised to kno as I was that there was another one written years ago.maybe someone in the group can give a history on this.In His Grace >>Jeanne AA Old Preamble - 1940 We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are powerless over alcohol and unable to do anything about it without the help of a Power greater than ourselves. We feel that each person's religious views, if any, are his own affair. The simple purpose of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is to show what may be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be. In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do to that Power, we must at first apply ourselves with some diligence. By often repeating these acts, they become habitual and the help rendered becomes natural to us. We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from a serious illness for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may be the result of an allergy, which makes us different from other people. It has never been by any treatment with which we are familiar, permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute abstinence, the second meaning of A.A. There are no dues or fees. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. Each member squares his debt by helping others to recover. An Alcoholics Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application and adherence to the A.A. program has forsworn the use of any and all alcoholic beverage in any form. The moment he takes so much as one drop of beer, wine, spirits or any other alcoholic beverage he automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. A.A. is not interested in sobering up drunks who are not sincere in their desire to remain sober for all time. Not being reformers, we offer our experience only to those who want it. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and on which we can join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our program. Those who do not recover are people who will not or simply cannot give themselves to this simple program. Now you may like this program or you may not, but the fact remains, it works. It is our only chance to recover. There is a vast amount of fun in the A.A. fellowship. Some people might be shocked at our seeming worldliness and levity but just underneath there lies a deadly earnestness and a full realization that we must put first things first and with each of us the first thing is our alcoholic problem. To drink is to die. Faith must work twenty-four hours a day in and through us or we perish. In order to set our tone for this meeting I ask that we bow our heads in a few moments of silent prayer and meditation. I wish to remind you that whatever is said at this meeting expresses our own individual opinion as of today and as of up to this moment. We do not speak for A.A. as a whole and you are free to agree or disagree as you see fit, in fact, it is suggested that you pay no attention to anything which might not be reconciled with what is in the A.A. Big Book. If you don't have a Big Book, it's time you bought you one. Read it, study it, live with it, loan it, scatter it, and then learn from it what it means to be an A.A." ----------- diazeztone wrote: I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi) preamble, Dallas, Texas. She wrote the story "Flower of the South." She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas. Anybody have any idea how many different AA talks there are by her which are still obtainable?? LD Pierce editor aabibliograpy.com SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3213. . . . . . . . . . . . The God Angle From: anmtcup . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2006 3:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Looking for information on a book similar to the 24 hour a day book format entitled THE GOD ANGLE by The God Angle Committee, 1972. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3214. . . . . . . . . . . . Grapevine article on Mayflower phone calls From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2006 5:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Looking for a link or copy of an article or articles Bill wrote in the RHS Memorial Grapevine edition of the Grapevine. These articles relate to the phone calls Bill reports making from the Mayflower Hotel in Akron. I only need that one article (or articles), not access to all the back copies of the Grapevine on line. Please contact me at: (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3215. . . . . . . . . . . . "Next Right Action" - Dr. Paul O. From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 1:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There was a question as to where "The next right action" came from in the fellowship. I cannot give a certain response, but i do know the first place i've seen it written. In the stories in the back of the book, the wonderful story of Dr. Paul O. published in the 3rd ed "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" (BB3 439-452u)... and in the 4th ed as "Acceptance was the answer." At the end of his story, i believe in the second to last paragraph... he speaks of knowing that at any given moment, God's will for him is simply the "Next right action." Although this story is famous for it's slant on acceptance... my personal favorite paragraph is the afore mentioned. That and where he discusses his perspective in relation to his wife Max. I am a part of the fellowship here in Southern California, Orange County. I go to several meeting where Dr. Paul O. was the founding member of the meeting. His spirit lives on here and is felt constantly. My home group meeting is where he sat every Wednesday night for years. I love and cherish his legacy of "next right action." Keeps me in the now when i choose to act. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3216. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: movie slang From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 5:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jocis007@... wrote: > > do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these > responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you assume them." from > chapter 7 > That's a real stretch. You could make a better argument for the language at the bottom of page 87 of Big Book, "...ask for the right thought or action." The point is that "do the next right thing" is a popular cliche, heard on the street, in the media and, only incidentally, in meetings since 1989. The first eleven chapters of Big Book use the word "money" thirteen times, but I wouldn't claim that the cliche, "Show me the money" comes from the Big Book. love+tolerance john > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3217. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: movie slang--Do the [next] right thing From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 6:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jocis007@... wrote: > > do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these > responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you assume them." from > chapter 7 I should have been more specific, and I promptly admit it. The original source of the cliche is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Hall of Fame basketball player, political activist and buddy of Spike Lee. Mr. Abdul-Jabbar's well-known quote was, "I try to do the right thing at the right time." Spike Lee is a huge basketball fan and polical activist. Spike modified Kareem's quote for his movie title, so that the quote became "Do the right thing". The quote doesn't come from Big Book or any AA source. It's just Polly-Parrot rhetoric used liberally by corporate public relations officers, high school civics teachers, group therapy moderators and recovery group members. john where the Monongahela meets the Allegheny, to form the Ohio > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3218. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Self-Support From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 9:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I remember when I first started coming around (1976), the oldtimers said "toss in the cost of a drink" You could get a good stiff drink for a buck in 1976. Can't do that now. If we still were tossing in the cost of a drink we might still be self-supporting. _________________________ A comment from the moderator: I think this is useful. We need to pool our knowledge of early AA history and get a better idea of the reasoning that was used, back at that point in AA history, for deciding that a dollar was a reasonable amount. Just like Kimball, I have also heard old timers talking about it in the context of how much it cost for a drink. What other reasoning did they actually use for deciding on the figure of a dollar? I'm not talking about us just guessing about it, but would like to hear from people who remember old timers actually talking about it. A dollar for a good stiff drink in 1976 sounds about right, and seventy-five cents to a dollar for a beer. What would it be now at a bar of similar calibre? And what about the 1960's and 1950's and even earlier? What was the price of a single beer at a bar at various points between 1939 and the present? What was the price of a shot of whiskey, or a single mixed drink, as it continued to rise over that same period of time? But I think we need to keep the focus on what we can actually know historically. Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3219. . . . . . . . . . . . First editon covers From: dpmoose69 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2006 9:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Bill T. thought you might me able to help me out. I am working with a member that is trying to restore a first edition third printing of the big book. He has askied if I can replicate the front cover and spine lettering and create a black and white image of it. I am looking for either actual scans of the cover, the font name or style, or anything that would help. I appreciate any and all feedback. dpdave@cox.net dave h IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3220. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "burning desire", Chants From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2006 9:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A couple of comments from Jim S. and Tommy H. ______________________________ Comment from: "Jim S." (james.scarpine at verizon.net) Arsonists have burning desires. ______________________________ Comment from: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Responding to Message 3211 from (ricktompkins at comcast.net), where Rick said: {"It Works If You Work It!" is part of our ever-longer chants that follow a meeting closing... From my own experience, this "gospel shout" comes from treatment centers and nowhere else, and it took hold in AA in the early 1990s.} The chants are moving, and are now starting to occur, not just at the end, but also to "How It Works" at the beginning. A couple of years ago people started chanting the last line of How It Works, "God could and would, if He were sought," to the immense annoyance of a number of people. My wife, who moved here from NYC last year said the chant is common there. I think treatment centers started it to see who was still awake. Rick (who lives in Illinois) also said: {"Does anyone have a 'burning desire' to share" or "to add more thoughts" is a normal question a meeting chair can ask before closing an AA meeting. I still hear it a lot.} More than once a chair has said, "People with burning desires need to see their urologist." Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3221. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. From: Charlene C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2006 9:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Charlene C." (ccp28para4 at yahoo.com) IIdog wrote: (IIdog at prodigy.net) ##I am looking for information on Dr. Paul Oehlinger. His story is in the third and fourth edition of the Big Book. The same story with different titles. I appreciate any information on this. Thank you, Jane B.## You can listen to Dr. Paul O.'s talk on-line. Go to xa-speakers (The Lights Are On) at http://www.xa-speakers.org/ then to aa-alcoholics anonymous, then to single speakers. Dr. Paul's is on page 24. C. Cook ______________________________ From: Tammy Cook (tomatolcook at yahoo.com) Wendi Turner wrote: (wenditurner at earthlink.net) ##In the stories in the back of the book, the wonderful story of Dr. Paul O. published in the 3rd ed "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" (BB3 439-452u)... and in the 4th ed as "Acceptance was the answer." At the end of his story, i believe in the second to last paragraph... he speaks of knowing that at any given moment, God's will for him is simply the "Next right action."## I like the saying too Wendi. It helped me to not feel so overwhelmed in the beginning...still helps sometimes too. ______________________________ From: "Joe Nugent" (joe-gent at sympatico.ca) Dr. Paul O. was what I call an elder statesman. Joe IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3222. . . . . . . . . . . . History and Archives Gathering June 24 2006 From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2006 9:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There will be a Multi-District History and Archives Gathering on June 24 2006 location to be negotiated but between Harrisburg PA and Lebanon PA, from about 8:30 a.m. to about 3:30 p.m. This will be like the Gatherings held in Summerdale PA April 2003 and Elizabethtown PA June 2004. (We skipped a year for the International.) We have invited AA historians Glenn C. and Mitch K. We are also inviting other historians, and hope to have exhibits from the Philadelphia Intergroup Archives, the Maryland Archives, and the Northern New Jersey Archives, at least, along with a speaker from GSO. We expect Chet H. (DLD 4/4/49) to be in attendance, and hope for other 50+ oldtimers. No charge for attending. Keep the date free if you can, and come if you can. -- Jared Lobdell __________________________________ A note from the moderator: At the very beginning, AA developed around two major centers: (1) Akron, Cleveland, and that area of the upper midwest clustering around the western Great Lakes. (2) That area on the eastern seaboard which had New York City at its center, but involved people from that entire part of the eastern seaboard. Eastern Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New Jersey were all part of that early eastern AA center, so Jared's history and archives gathering should be of more than simply regional interest, on those grounds alone. Also Mitchell K. is our expert on early Cleveland AA, which was a key part of the other early AA center. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana (see map at http://hindsfoot.org/contact.html) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3223. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First edition covers From: Rob . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/27/2006 10:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The best place I've found to get Big Book dust jackets is http://www.dustjackets.org/. They have replica dust jackets for all printings of the first, second, and third edition. Rob ______________________________ From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) This is exactly the kind of work that Bob W. (archivist from Little Rock, Arkansas) is involved in... I've misplaced his contact info. Can anyone else provide it? My email address is (cm53 at earthlink.net) -cm ______________________________ From: "Gallery Photography" (gallery5 at mindspring.com) If it were me, I wouldn't touch it. If he wants a good usable book, go buy a new one. Take that book and put it in a glass box. Rotax Steve IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3224. . . . . . . . . . . . Ester and the Texas Preamble From: silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/27/2006 2:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Grapevine, February, 2001 Texas Preamble: A few months after the Grapevine published the Preamble in June, 1947, Ollie L., Dick F., and Searcy W. decided to beef it up for the drunks in Texas. "We worked on it, passed it around, and agreed on this version, " says Searcy W. "It's now read by groups throughout the state." It works for Searcy. He's been sober 54 years. For all who would be interested in it: ------------------------------------- Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are powerless over alcohol, and are unable to do anything about it without the help of a Power greater than ourselves. We feel each person's religious convictions, if any, are his own affair, and the simple purpose of the program of AA is to show what may be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves, regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be. In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do to that Power, we must first apply ourselves with some diligence, but repetition confirms and strengthens this habit, then faith comes naturally. We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from a serious disease for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may be the result of an allergic reaction to alcohol which makes it impossible for us to drink in moderation. This condition has never, by any treatment with which we are familiar, been permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute abstinence - a second meaning of AA. There are no dues or fees. The only requirement is an honest desire to stop drinking. Each member is a person with an acknowledged alcoholic problem who has found the key to abstinence from day to day by adhering to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. The moment he resumes drinking he loses all status as a member of AA. His reinstatement is automatic, however, when he again fulfills the sole requirement for membership - an honest desire to quit drinking. Not being reformers we offer our experience only to those who want it. AA is not interested in sobering up drunks who are seeking only temporary sobriety. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and in which we join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are those who will not or cannot lend themselves to this simple program-- usually men and women who are incapable of being honest with themselves. You may like this Program or you many not, but the fact remains that is works.. and we believe it is our only chance to recover. There is a vast amount of fun included in the AA fellowship. Some people may be shocked at our apparent worldliness and levity, but just underneath there is a deadly earnestness and a full realization that we must put first things firs. With each of us the first thing is our alcoholic problem. Faith must work twenty-four hours a day in and through us, or we perish. with gratitude, Jim M IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3225. . . . . . . . . . . . stepping stones From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2006 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in Bedford Falls NY (just above NYC) where Bill and Lois lived from 1941 on. It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly interested in AA history. They have done a marvelous job of keeping it in exactly the same condition it was when Bill and lois lived there (Lois' glasses are where she left them in the kitchen). What a treasure trove of history! You can sit at the kitchen table that Ebby and Bill sat at in Clinton street when Bill pushed a drink over to him and Ebby announced " I got religion". You can stand in the living room where Marty Mann and Bill formed Council that would become the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence . You can sit at the desk where Bill wrote the Big Book and the 12 and 12. You can see the map filled with stick pins where Bill measured the progress of new groups across the country. You can sit and gaze out the window that he looked out when contemplating how he would respond to the hundreds of questions coming in from all over the country about how to start a meeting etc. The best part - its largely undiscovered by the masses. You can get a quiet visit with a volunteer tour guide and take your time to savor each part. It is the most important collection of AA artifacts and history anywhere. I have been to East Dorset (birthplace, childhood home, gravesite) I have been to Akron. (Dr Bob's house, Mayflower Hotel) Bedford Falls is the Mother Lode. www.steppingstones.org they are having a big picnic on June 3 if you like a crowd, but I recommend you go when its quiet and no one else is there. Rob White Baltimore 410 328 8549 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3226. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant March Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2006 7:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII March 1936 - AA had 10 members staying sober. At end of 1936 A.A. had 15 members. March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Works Publishing Inc established to support writing and printing of the book. March 1940 - Mort J. came to LA from Denver; started custom of reading Chapter 5 Big Book at Cecil group. March 1941 - Second printing of Big Book. March 1941 - 1st Prison AA Group formed at San Quentin. March 1946 - The March of Time film is produced by NY AA office. March 1949 - Dr. Bob considers idea of AA conference premature. March 1951 - American Weekly publishes memorial article for Dr. Bob. March 1, 1939 - Readers Digest fails to write article on AA. March 1, 1941 - Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article published and membership jumped from 2,000 to 8,000 by years end. March 3 1947 - Nell Wing started work at Alcoholic Foundation 415 Lexington Avenue. March 4, 1891 - Lois W is born. March 5, 1945 - Time Magazine reports Detroit radio broadcasts of AA members. (Archie T?) March 7, 1940 -- Bill and Lois visited the Philadelphia AA group. March 7, 1941 -- Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted to get well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury St., at 8 PM Wednesdays. March 9, 1941 - Wichita Beacon reports AA member from NY who wants to form a group in Wichita. March 10, 1944 - New York Intergroup was established. March 11, 1949 - The Calix Society, an association of Roman Catholic alcoholics who are maintaining their sobriety through participation in Alcoholics Anonymous, was formed in Minneapolis by five Catholic AA members. March 14, - South Orange, NJ, AA group held an anniversary dinner with Bill W as guest speaker March 15, 1941 - 1st AA group formed in New Haven, Connecticut. Not reported in paper until Oct 1, 1941. March 16, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation and Works Publishing move from Newark to 30 Vesey St in lower Manhattan. First headquarters of our own. March 21, 1881 - Anne R, Dr Bobs wife, is born. March 21 1966 - Ebby dies. March 22, 1951 - Dr William Duncan Silkworth dies at Towns Hospital. March 22, 1984 - Clarence S, "Home Brewmeister", dies. March 23, 1936 - Bill and Lois visit Fitz M, "Our Southern Friend", in Maryland. March 25, 1898 -- Jim B ("The Vicious Cycle") was born. March 25, 2005 - Nancy Olson, Founder of AAHL- See Memorial at: http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html March 29, 1943 -- The Charleston Mail, WV, reported on Bill W's talk at St. John's Parish House. March 31, 1947 - 1st AA group formed in London, England. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3227. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Paul O. From: Executive Editor . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2006 1:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Paul commented on the title of the story when interviewed in the Grapevine. The story was originally published in the GV as "Bronze Moccasins" and changed when reprinted in the Big Book. The interview is in the GV's Digital Archive and in The Best of Grapevine. Cordially, Robin Bromley IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3228. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2006 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Paul has written a few books, Contact Sabrina Publishing at 800-booklog in Laguna Miguel, CA. Diz T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3229. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2006 6:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charlene, I met Dr Paul in Ogden Utah in the early 90s. The story (much shorter) was originally titled the Bronze Moccasins and ran in the Grapevine. It was later expanded for inclusion to the Big Book, and someone (possibly a Grapevine editor) renamed the story Doctor, Alcoholic, Adict. Paul didn't mind at first, but as time passed, some of our fellowship would point to the title of his story and say things like "it talks about drugs in the Big Book" or "you have to let me talk about drugs, it's in the book." That botherd him. Paul did not want the title of his story to be a source of controversy. It was renamed in the fourth editon to "Acceptance was the Answer." I was at a area workshop when the first box of fourth edition Big Books came to town and were uncrated. Everyone got a copy. It didn't take long for people to realize that their favorite passage in the story "Acceptance was the Answer" was moved from 449 to 417. I could almost hear a cry from coast to coast. Imagine, refusing to buy the 4th edition because you could not accept the page change of your favorite passage on Acceptance. A paradox of twisted thinking. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3230. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of things since 1935... From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2006 3:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, not much of an AA historian here, although I am learning a lot from this site, but as a reference librarian I would suggest an excellent resource for information re the question of a dollar in the basket and prices of things would be "The Value of a dollar: 1860-1999," a reference book most academic and larger public libraries would have. For example, in the 1935-1939 section, a pound of coffee was 26 cents. In the 1940-44 section it is noted that a fifth of Seagrams blended whiskey was $2.70 (coffee was cheaper actually, 24 cents a lb.) 1945-49, coffee was up to 31 cents a lb. In 1950- 54, coffee was 77 cents a lb., 93 cents in 1955-59... If we take the late '60s as a benchmark, since that is apparently how long the buck in the basket has been the stock donation, coffee had actually dropped, to 85 cents a lb. A keypunch operator might make $85 a week, or a typist $90. A 6 pack of Shlitz was 99 cents, and, well, I could go on but I won't ;-) Obviously the pegging of the standard donation at a dollar for so long is totally in defiance of economic common sense when you think of inflation. A sponsee of mine has a nice solution to this - he gets $2 bills at the bank, expressly to make his donation with in meetings! "Keep on truckin" Michael Corbett, BCHS class of '74 ______________________________ From the moderator: It seems to me that, on the basis of Michael Corbett's and Tom White's and Bruce Lallier's information, "a dollar in the basket" goes back to the late 1960's or early 1970's. This was in fact roughly the cost of a mixed drink at a good bar at that time. If we compare the cost of beer and shots of whiskey and bottles of decent liquor then, with prices now, it seems to me that 3 to 4 dollars in the basket would be the appropriate amount. Of course, if somebody wants to fine tune it, and count out exactly $3.67 (or something like that) into the basket, I suppose that person could do so. Putting just small change into the basket, as they did in the 1930's, 40's, and 50's would have made sense too, if we used the price of a drink as the standard. So it looks like the place where U.S. members started living in economic fantasy was during the 1980's (and all the way down to the present). This is something which is much more important for AA's survival than worrying about chants at the end of meetings, or minor changes in the Big Book, or a lot of the other things like that. Among other things, it has forced the New York GSO to start functioning as a profit making publishing business (with all the distortions this has produced) because the membership has forgotten that "fully self supporting, declining outside contributions" means that we are supposed to come up with the money to support the New York office, not force it to sell books in order to survive. And this also applies to intergroup offices and other necessary things. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) ______________________________ From: Tom White Glenn and Kimball: I think I can dredge up a few memories of drinking in the 50s. I sobered up in 59. "Nice" bars or "lounges" in NYC were one thing, but if you were drinking on the cheap, which I usually did, a glass (not a bottle) of tap beer was still a dime at a White Rose in NYC in 59, I'm pretty sure, and it had been right through my 13 years of state- side drinking after I got home from the Navy in 46. I think a bottle may have been 35 cents (again, cheap bars or grocery stores). You could get a shot of bar whiskey, a rye like White Feathers, for a quarter (or could it have been 50 cents?). Prices went up from there as you went "uptown," but it seems to me that in my first AA meetings coins were still quite acceptable. I don't remember when the thing became a standard one buck, but it sure has been hard to budge it away from that. The price of a drink seems to have been the control, after all, except that now it ought to be seen as more than a buck. But then we have Bill's remark (was it not?) that sober alcoholics are tighter than the bark on a tree. In our quite small group in Odessa, Texas, we do seem to have the members trained to do $2.00. Tom White Kimball wrote: I remember when I first started coming around (1976), the oldtimers said "toss in the cost of a drink" You could get a good stiff drink for a buck in 1976. ______________________________ From: "Bruce Lallier" When I came in in 71 we put a quarter in, seems like it went from a quarter to a dollar without stopping in between. I also heard some of the oldtimes at that time saying it was a one time said "if you have it put it in, if you need it take it out." Wonder how that would go over today. Bruce, a Connecticut transplant in Conneaut lake Pa ______________________________ From: John Lee Followup to Glenn: When talking about the Big Book at a meeting, I sometimes indicate to the newcomers that they can get one "for the price of a double margarita." I agree with your reminders to supply historical evidence on this board, not just conjecture or associations. Not just "my sponsor told me or my therapist told me." Isn't there something in Pass It On about how Bill would pass the hat at Clinton Street, and never get aper money [only change]? john lee member pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3231. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2006 10:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 12:13 3/2/2006 , Robin Bromley wrote: >Dr. Paul commented on the title of the story when interviewed in the >Grapevine. The story was originally published in the GV as "Bronze >Moccasins" and changed when reprinted in the Big Book. The interview is in >the GV's Digital Archive and in The Best of Grapevine. >Cordially, I got out my copy of the May 1975 Grapevine and compared the story "Bronzed Moccasins" to the story "Doctor, Addict, Alcoholic" in the Third Edition Big Book. [Note the correct title of the story.] There are the same number of paragraphs and the first sentence of each paragraph is the same in both volumes. What changes, except the title for the story in the Four Edition are you referring to? I found an interview of him in the July 2001 GV but it doesn't mention the original title of the article. What article are you referring to? I like the original title much better than the current one, but that is just my two cents. Tommy H in Baton Rouge . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3232. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: stepping stones From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2006 8:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just a couple of points.... When I visited with Lois about 3 months before she passed on there were no glasses in the kitchen just as there were no glasses in the kitchen when I visited there soon after she passed on. Maybe I'm losing my memory (I do know my short-term is severely damaged) but can someone refresh it about Bill and Marty starting what was to become the National Council in the livingroom As far as "THE" table.... it has been reported that there are a few "THE" tables where Bill and Ebby met. As far as the desk in the study on the hill being "THE" desk where the Big Book was written... I've sat at that desk many a time and it wouldn't fit in the office in the Newark office and I someone will have to fill me in if BandL stored the Clinton St. furniture or took it with them on all their moves. Another thing.... it cannot be classified as "It is the most important collection of AA artifacts > and history anywhere." I'm tickled pink that you enjoyed yourself so much at Stepping Stones. I wish more members of the Fellowship would have your interest in our history. However... we must temper historical fact with legend. Hey, I may be totally off base... > I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in > Bedford Falls NY (just above NYC) where Bill and > Lois lived from 1941 on. > It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly > interested in AA history. > > They have done a marvelous job of keeping it in > exactly the same condition it was when Bill and lois > lived there (Lois' glasses are where she left them > in the kitchen). > > What a treasure trove of history! > > You can sit at the kitchen table that Ebby and Bill > sat at in Clinton street when Bill pushed a drink > over to him and Ebby announced " I got religion". > You can stand in the living room where Marty Mann > and Bill formed Council that would become the > National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence . > You can sit at the desk where Bill wrote the Big > Book and the 12 and 12. > You can see the map filled with stick pins where > Bill measured the progress of new groups across the > country. > You can sit and gaze out the window that he looked > out when contemplating how he would respond to the > hundreds of questions > coming in from all over the country about how to > start a meeting etc. > > The best part - its largely undiscovered by the > masses. You can get a quiet visit with a volunteer > tour guide and take your time to savor each part. > > It is the most important collection of AA artifacts > and history anywhere. > > I have been to East Dorset (birthplace, childhood > home, gravesite) > I have been to Akron. (Dr Bob's house, Mayflower > Hotel) > Bedford Falls is the Mother Lode. > > www.steppingstones.org > > they are having a big picnic on June 3 if you like a > crowd, > but I recommend you go when its quiet and no one > else is there. > > Rob White > Baltimore > 410 328 8549 > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3233. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: stepping stones From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2006 10:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 14:51 3/1/2006 , Rob White wrote: >I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in Bedford Falls NY (just >above NYC) where Bill and Lois lived from 1941 on. >It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly interested in AA history. I believe the name of the town is Bedford Hills. Tommy H in Baton Rouge . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3234. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: stepping stones From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 1:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dave and I never heard that discussions about Marty's founding the National Council on Alcoholism started at Stepping Stones. Wherever Marty and Bill talked, whether at the AA office, over lunch, or out at Stepping Stones - or all three - Marty certainly tossed around her plans with Bill and Lois since Bill was her AA sponsor and she and the Wilsons were close personal friends. However, we do know that he threw cold water on the whole idea, saying she was unqualified for such a venture. She went ahead, anyway, since she was being encouraged by other strong advisers, and besides was being driven by a dream she had multiple gifts for fulfilling. Later, of course, Bill and Dr Bob both joined her Advisory Board for a while. And as Marty's vision became a successful reality over the decades, Bill changed his mind and enthusiastically supported her efforts and achievements in dramatically expanding AA's membership and influence as well as in educating our country as a whole about alcoholism. Marty's biography (see below) contains many hitherto unreported facts about AA history. Dave and I tried hard to write only what could be verified and attributed to sources. We are very grateful to other writers of AA and recovery history before us who set high historical standards. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3235. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: stepping stones From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 7:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > >> Just a couple of points.... > someone will have to > fill me in if BandL stored the Clinton St. furniture or > took it with them on all their moves. Hi Mitch, We are ever seeking the details. According to the diary they put the furniture into storage when they left 182. Recall that they moved directly into the Parkhurst 344 N. Fullerton, Montclair home from there and for the next six or seven Sundays the regular meeting was held there begining on May 14, 1939 if my memory is correct. At that time there was only one meeting at most per night for the entire Eastern United States. The meetings began at 4:00 and went most of the night. They rotated speakers for the first portion according to Jim Burwell who was probably living at Hank and Kathleen's home as well at that time. They were mostly quite broke from the book which had just arrived in final form the month before. However these were dinner meetings with Herb T. paying for a "big spread". The wive's always attended these along with their spouse's. At that meeting they voted in the Bill and Lois Home replacement fund and each pledged different amounts of which none of them paid more than a few months. They wrote up a document with this information which is in the GSO archives. Marty was still a Blythewood Sanatarium patient and she took the train to the meeting from CT. to NJ. (Bill and Lois were doing an errand when they voted this Home Replacement Fund in - they arrived shortly thereafter and Lois wrote in her diary that they were thrilled. Very shortly thereafter Hank and Kathleen became estranged, probably after Kathleen found out about his proposal to Ruth. Hank moved to East Orange, 50 Beech St. I believe. His mail went to West Orange. By June 21st Kathleen was moving out. And Lois helped her move her furniture to a specifically named individuals house who I'd have to look up. In her long diary entry that day she never said a word about her own furniture. Immediately they were offered the Green pond bungalow by the family of Horace C. (note there was a Horace G. member too at that time.) His family owned the mammouth international shipping firm of Moore McCormick if I remember correctly. Green Pond was in the remote wilderness and Lois loved it. The diary entries from that time, many of which are in LR, are the longest and happiest of that first 5 year period. LR leaves you with the impression that when they left there shortly thereafter it was for good. In fact, it was only rented for a very short time and they lived there often during the next few years gradually moving into the NYC clubhouse when that became an option. Much time was spent with Bob and Mag V. at their farmhouse in Bog Hollw near Monsey, NY. They both seemed more drawn to the country than the city. SS is certainly that. The Best to You and Your Wife Mitch, -merton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3236. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones, Bedford Hills From: rriley9945@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 12:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Tommy H. in Baton Rouge, in Message 3233: Stepping Stones is in Bedford Hills, not Bedford Falls. ______________________________ From: rriley9945@aol.com For you movie fans, Bedford Falls is the name of the town in the holiday classic It's a Wonderful Life starring James Stewart. ______________________________ From: "johnlawlee" The town is Bedford Hills, not Bedford Falls. The latter is the mythical setting for the Jimmy Stewart classic movie, "It's a Wonderful Life." Incidently, Bill and Lois' house is in Katonah, not Bedford Hills. Kotonah is the next town. The postal addresses must have changed since Bill lived there. I searched the streets of Bedford Hills for an hour, looking for the house. It's not there. I received a nice private tour from a staff member. john lee pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3237. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. From: Cloydg . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 9:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the AA Archives that's accessable over the Internet, Dr. Paul did an interview. He explained where he was at that time in his life and how he felt about his article, "Bronze Moccasins". Then he speaks about his story being included into the BB under the title, "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict", and the ensuing problems he encountered. My question is: Does the AA interview appear to say that in his view, alcoholics can and do become dually addicted but addicts seldom become alcoholic?" Also, did it appear to anyone else that he was attempting to make an apology to AA for writing his article? In love and service, Clyde G. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3238. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Paul O. on acceptance From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 11:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3239. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Price of things since 1935... From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 4:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Care should be exercised in defining the basis used for comparing dollar amounts over time, particularly in considering the long-term effects of inflation. It is useful to convert past dollar amounts to show the equivalent buying power in current dollars. This is easily accomplished by using Consumer Price Index (CPI) conversion factors. CPI conversion data can be obtained on-line from Professor Robert C Sahr, Political Science Dept, Oregon State U, Corvalis http://oregonstate.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/cv2005.pdf The "quantity" of past dollars amounts can erroneously be viewed as the "value" of past dollar amounts. An amount expressed in 1940 dollars can erroneously be viewed as less expensive than 2005 dollars when in fact the 1940 value is substantially more expensive. Consider the $3.50 selling price of the Big Book when it was first published in April 1939. $3.50 in 1939 dollars would be the equivalent value of $49.30 in 2005 dollars. The Big Book was a rather expensive book for its time. That's the reason it was printed on such large and thick paper and got the name "Big Book" (the idea was to convince the alcoholics that they were getting their money's worth). The Summer/Fall 2005 catalog of Conference-approved literature shows that a hard cover Big Book can be purchased for $6. You can also erroneously conclude that this is almost twice the cost of what the Big Book sold for in 1939. In fact the 2005 Big Book price actually represents only 12% of what a Big Book sold for in 1939 (i.e. a nearly 90% price reduction). As best as I can determine, groups and members were first asked to make direct contributions to what is today GSO in March 1941 when Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article was published. The publicity caused 1941 membership to jump from around 2,000 to 8,000. The article led to over 6,000 appeals for help to be mailed to the NY Office to handle. The NY office asked groups to donate $1 ($13.33 in 2005 dollars) per member, per year, for support of the office. This began the practice of financing the NY office operations from group donations (re the Service Manual, page S7). Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small. The same goes for each group trying to donate to their Central Office, District, Area and GSO - just try to donate something no matter how small (it does have a tendency to add up over time). Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3240. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s 1966 Letter From: Carter Elliott . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2006 6:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As Bill Sees It contains thirty-one entries sourced to "Letter, 1966". Do we know if this letter was a single, philosophical essay or letters collected from his general correspondence? Carter E.; Blacksburg BA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3241. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator gone March 11-17 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 12:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The moderator will not be available from Saturday March 11 to Friday March 17. If you could hang onto your messages until the 17th, it would be greatly appreciated. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator South Bend, Indiana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3242. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance From: JNP in Maine . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 12:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Someone once told me that in a conversation with Dr Paul he stated that acceptance was not the answefr and he had made that statement before he had taken the steps as they were laid out in the Big Book Joe Pet Orono, Maine Cheryl F wrote: I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3243. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance From: Azor521@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 10:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 3/10/06 8:49:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, learning3legacies@cox.net writes: paragraph about acceptance I met Dr. Paul O. at a speaker meeting in Modesto, CA @ 1993 and while we were at dinner he made it clear he didn't get acceptance out of the blue. He had to work for it and suggested we read his entire story to get the full perspective of his life in recovery to that point. He and his wife Max seemed like loving and caring people grateful for their recovery. Love and Huggs to all............ Floyd J [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3244. . . . . . . . . . . . Doctor Bob''s nightmare From: Rob . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 3:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where this changed? It would be most appreciated. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3245. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance From: wilfried antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 2:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I will only quote part of the article in the July 1995 Grapevine: GV: Is there anything you regret having written in your story? Dr. Paul: Well, I must say I'm really surprised at the number of people who come up to me and ask me confidentially if what they've heard on the very best authority - usually from their sponsor - is true: that there are things in my story I want to change, or that I regret having written it, or that I want to take it out because it says so much about drugs, or that I've completely changed my mind that AA is the answer or even that acceptance is the answer. I've also heard - on the best authority. -that I've died or gotten drunk or on pills. The latest one was that my wife Max died and that I got so depressed I got drunk. So, is there anything I'd like to change? No. I believe what I said more now than when I wrote it. This was taken out of context- the whole article should be available in the Grapevine digital archives. wil ----- Original Message ----- From: Cheryl F To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:06 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Paul O. on acceptance I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3246. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 8:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group Living in Southern California I was able to listen to Dr Paul often. He always spoke in my area at least 3 or 4 times a year. On several occasions I Heard him say he thought there other things in his story that was just as important as that one paragraph. For instance he thought the part about him and his wife Max getting well together in AA was better than that paragraph. Personally I like the next to the last paragraph which reads: "Acceptance is the key to my relationship with God today. I never just sit and do nothing while waiting for Him to tell me what to do. Rather, I do whatever is in front of me to be done, and I leave the results up to Him; however it turns out, that's Gods will for me." I believe of all the speakers I have been able to listen to from So Cal over the past 15 years I miss hearing Dr Paul the most. Thanks Charles from California -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Cheryl F Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:07 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Paul O. on acceptance I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3247. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Price of things since 1935... From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 1:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was encouraged to participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket. The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings and has forgone collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become established. Fiona D On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote: > Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking > members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition > collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there > are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be > left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be > for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small. Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource. Arkie IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3248. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Price of things since 1935... From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2006 7:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In meetings around here, I've noticed the chairperson stating that newcomers, visitors and those currently in a hospital or treatment center (in patient), need not contribute. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 > From: Arkie Koehl > Reply-To: > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:40:48 -1000 > To: > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Price of things since 1935... > > My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was encouraged to > participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket. > The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings and has > forgone collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become > established. > > Fiona D > > > On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote: > >> Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking >> members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition >> collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there >> are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be >> left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be >> for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small. > > Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from > treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there > is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are > sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put > nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected > to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the > state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource. > > Arkie > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3249. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Doctor Bob''s nightmare From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2006 9:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 14:32 3/10/2006 , Rob wrote: >hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and >it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd >printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years >have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where >this changed? It would be most appreciated. I checked my Third Editions and printings number 1 thru 8 state "six years" and 9 on state "four years." This is on p. 180. I checked several Second Editions and they all said "six years" as did the two First Editions I have, but the statement was on p. 192 of the Firsts. The question of why this change was effected was discussed at some point in the recent past on our list. I remember reading it but am not confident enough in my memory to quote and I can't find the post. Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3250. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Doctor Bob''s nightmare From: Carolyn W . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2006 10:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mark, I looked in my copy of the 3rd edition of the BB. and it says ' four years '. Carol ----- Original Message ----- From: To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:32 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Doctor Bob's nightmare hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where this changed? It would be most appreciated. SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3251. . . . . . . . . . . . Universal Mind From: wbmscm . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2006 8:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I hope this question is not beyond the purpose of this list, but Got any info. on Bill using the term "Universal Mind" in his story. The term caught my eye because it's capitalized. I searched the archives and didn't come up with anything ( I may have missed it), googled the term, with some success (seems origin may be from Hindu), but any info. re: Bill using it would fulfill my curiousity. Peace, Wendy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3252. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sauerkraut remedy From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2006 4:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently revisited this as a result of picking up a pamphlet from Dr. Bob's Home which had his last talk to the Cleveland A.A. Conference on July 30, 1950. It quotes him as saying "sauerkraut and cold meadow." This talk is in the June '73 Grapevine. The September '73 GV addresses "cold meadow" and concludes "And then one dear reader sent us a length of tape, much better than ours, on which it all came out quite clearly, "sauerkraut and cold tomatoes." This was confirmed by a second reader in a letter from England." Tommy in Baton Rouge At 16:26 1/31/2006 , Peggy Anna wrote: >I have a book written in 1993 by Don Julio DeMedici Santaleone, entitled >"The James Connection or Sauerkraut, Tomatoes, and Karo Syrup" The author >has been a member of AA for over 20 years now and lives in Rochester, New >York. In his introduction he states "as related in Dr. Bob and the Good >Oldtimers (p 74) a detoxification treatment of a combination of tomatoes, >sauerkraut and Karo corn syrup was administered by Bill W. to Dr. Bob in >order to supply Bob with vitamins and energy so that Bob could perform >surgery". > >Peggy Anna >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Rich Foss" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:13 PM >Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sauerkraut remedy > > > > > > An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice > > treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with > > replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our > > literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob > > and > > the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's > > simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way > > out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut. > > Thanks. > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3253. . . . . . . . . . . . "Stump the Archivist" From: J. Carey Thomas . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2006 5:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Our Area has started a idea called "Stump the Archivist." The four questions below have come from attendees at our Area business weekends. I have tried the search capability of our site, but have not mastered its capabilities. Probably the answers to these *questions* are there, but I could use some help...! Here is the first batch of four questions we have been asked: JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle? When was the grapevine first published? In its present form? I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even some answers! _\|/_ (o o) -----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey---------- Carey Thomas Archivist, Area 15 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3254. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Crooked thinking From: Charlene C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2006 1:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness. just a thought. C. Cook trixiebellaa wrote: hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3255. . . . . . . . . . . . William Y. "California Bill" take two From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2006 12:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On February 7th I posted the following but have not received any responses. I am hoping that someone has some information since the following is listed as a significant event in AA history: In Message 3129, "Significant February dates in A.A. History " http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3129 it says: Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem, NC. Who was William Y. "California Bill" and what is his significance in AA history? Thanks. Chris Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3256. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Price of things since 1935... From: meb_nosix . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2006 10:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Markle wrote: > > In meetings around here, I've noticed the chairperson stating that > newcomers, visitors and those currently in a hospital or treatment center > (in patient), need not contribute. > > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > > > From: Arkie Koehl > > Reply-To: > > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:40:48 -1000 > > To: > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Price of things since 1935... > > > > My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was encouraged to > > participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket. > > The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings and has > > forgone collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become > > established. > > > > Fiona D > > > > > > On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote: > > > >> Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking > >> members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition > >> collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there > >> are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be > >> left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be > >> for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small. > > > > Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from > > treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there > > is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are > > sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put > > nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected > > to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the > > state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource. > > > > Arkie > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure where these meetings are that you talk about but agree that those interested ina solution should listen to those that are able to offer one. Step 2 "Came to beleive that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" clearly states that we are insane till we have the essential personality change brought on by folowing the steps. Those not working the steps or new to the program are in no position to offer anything but the a deluded view of reality that has landed them there in the first place. I've been to many meetings while in early recovery and found til i completed the steps exactly as outlined in the big book i had no idea what i was talking about and basically stayed in the problem. Those interested in a solution and sick of living in the problem will be the ones that are happy to listen. God bless. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3257. . . . . . . . . . . . Are any AAHL''s going to Ireland From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2006 12:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 60th Anniversary of AA in Ireland will be celebrated in Cork Ireland next month at the All Ireland convention. Do any AAHL members plan to attend? Are there any AAHL members in Ireland besides Fiona D., who has most graciously agreed to show us County Mayo and the birthplace of Sister Ignatia ? also, There will be a closed meeting of the Archives Committee in Philadelphia, Pa at 444 N.3rd St 3rd floor at 1 PM on Saturday 3/18/06. We will play a videotape of Conor F (the man who took AA to Ireland/ Europe and Dr. Moore ( who provides Conor with Richard P.) the 1st man sober in Ireland. Because it is a videotape from 1982 it will be a closed meeting(for alcoholics only) The statement of anonymity will be read at the meeting Yours in Service, Shakey Mike G [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3258. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Crooked thinking From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2006 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't know whether you would consider this, it is just opinion and I have no evidence to back it up. But, Bill's use of recent historical events as part of his argument, such as the Titanic when it comes to the part "we are like passengers of a great liner." Would suggest that recent social/historical events were maybe in his mind, this said, then an employer may look on an alcoholic as a liability and not worth the investment in salvaging. Given that in recent memory the US has had a depression no shortage of willing workers; and the prohibition a moral judgment and one that may have increased in some way the numbers of alcoholics. Then the second world war intervened and ended the employment problem and gave the country a focus and unity. My question would be; how were employers inclined to think post war rather than pre war. God bless Dave it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness. just a thought. C. Cook trixiebellaa wrote: hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3259. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "Stump the Archivist" From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 12:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST > > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? seems like somewhere I've read something like "Usually, however, other people are involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr who would needlessly sacrifice others ..." So I'll let those who might choose to take Bill's inventory also consider making his amends. [isn't it odd how often we run across those willing to take someone else's inventory, but how seldom those same folks volunteer to do the amends steps?] > > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? Sister Ignatia was reportedly in the habit of giving out Sacred Heart tokens to those who 'graduated treatment' at St Thomas Hospital in Akron. As early as Jan 1947, in the Grapevine's "AA Country Wide News Circuit" column, it is noted that the Elmira, N. Y. Group used white-red-and-blue poker chips to note lengths of continuous sobriety. In May 1947, that same column mentions Tacoma Wash using white-yellow-red-and-blue chips. In Aug 1947, that column again mentions the use of a blue chip by the North Hollywood, Cal group. A later, 1955, article "In the Chips" noted the practice in Charlotte, NC with white-red-amber-green-and-blue chips. > > Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle? "Where" is on most all AAWS literature published, "when" would be from the 50's till 1993. > > When was the grapevine first published? In its present form? The first [oversized] issue is dated June 1944, then it was 'downsized' to it's present dimensions in Sept 1948. > > I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even > some answers! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3260. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2006 8:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history. When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? Chips, Medallions and Birthdays The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the history on them. Sister lgnatia, the nun who helped Dr. Bob get the hospitalization program started at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron was the first person to use medallions in Alcoholics Anonymous. She gave the drunks who were leaving St. Thomas after a five day dry out a Sacred Heart Medallion and instructed them that the acceptance of the medallion signified a commitment to God, to A.A. and to recovery and that if they were going to drink, they had a responsibility to return the medallion to her before drinking. The sacred heart badges had been used prior to A.A. by the Father Matthew Temperance Movement of the 1840s and the Pioneers an Irish Temperance Movement of the 1890s. The practice of sobriety chips in A.A. started with a Group in Elmira, N.Y. in 1947 and has grown from there. The celebration of birthdays came from the Oxford Group where they celebrated the anniversary of their spiritual rebirth. As we have a problem with honesty, A.A. chose the anniversary of the date of our last drink. Early celebrations of birthdays resulted in people getting drunk and Dr. Harry Tiebout was asked to look at the problem and he commented on this phenomenon in an articled titled "When the Big "I" Becomes Nobody", (AAGV, Sept. 65) "Early on in A.A., I was consulted about a serious problem plaguing the local group. The practice of celebrating a year's sobriety with a birthday cake had resulted in a certain number of the members getting drunk within a short period after the celebration. It seemed apparent that some could not stand prosperity. I was asked to settle between birthday cakes or no birthday cakes. Characteristically, I begged off, not from shyness but from ignorance. Some three or four years later, A.A. furnished me the answer. The group no longer had such a problem because, as one member said, "We celebrate still, but a year's sobriety is now a dime a dozen. No one gets much of a kick out of that anymore." The AAGV carried many articles on chips and cakes and the following is a brief summary of some. Feb. 1948, Why All the Congratulations? "When we start taking bows (even on anniversaries) we bow ourselves right into the cuspidor." July, 1948. Group To Give Oscar for Anniversaries. The Larchmont Group of Larchmont, N.Y. gives a cast bronze camel mounted on a mahogany base to celebrate 1st., 5th and 10th anniversaries. "The camel is wholly emblematic of the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e., to live for 24 hours without a drink." August 1948. The Artesta, N.Mex. Group awards marbles to all members. If you are caught without your marbles, you are fined 25 cents. This money goes into the Foundation Fund. June 1953, We operate a poker chip club in the Portland Group (Maine). We have poker chips of nine colors of which the white represents the probation period of one month. If he keeps his white chip for one month he is presented with a red chip for one month's sobriety. The chips continue with blue for two months, black for three, green for four, transparent blue for five, amber for six, transparent purple for nine months and a transparent clear chip for one year. We have our chips stamped with gold A.A. letters. Also at the end of the year and each year thereafter, we present them with a group birthday card signed by all members present at the meeting. January 1955, Charlotte, N.C. "When a man takes "The Long Walk" at the end of a meeting, to pick up a white chip, he is admitting to his fellow men that he has finally accepted the precepts of A.A. and is beginning his sobriety. At the end of three months he exchanges his white chip for a red one. Later, a handsome, translucent chip of amber indicates that this new member has enjoyed six months of a new way of life. The nine month chip is a clear seagreen and a blue chip is given for the first year of sobriety. In some groups a sponsor will present his friend with an engraved silver chip, at the end of five years clear thinking and clean living. March 1956, The One Ton Poker Chip. Alton, Illinois. Author gave friend a chip on his first day eight years ago (1948) and told him to accept it in the spirit of group membership and that if he wanted to drink to throw the chip away before starting drinking. October 1956, Bangor Washington. Article about a woman who sits in a bar to drink the bartender sees her white chips and asks what it is. She tells him. He throws her out as he does not want an alcoholic in his bar. She calls friend. April 1957, Cape Cod, Mass. Group recognizes 1st, 5th and 15th anniversaries. Person celebrating leads meeting. Person is presented with a set of wooden carved plaques with the slogans. July 1957, New Brunswick, Canada. Birthday Board. Member contributes one dollar for each year of sobriety July 1957, Oregon. Person is asked to speak and is introduced by his or her sponsor. The wife, mother, sister or other relative brings up a cake. The Group sings Happy Birthday. The wife gives a two or thee minute talk. April 1959, Patterson, N.J. People are asked to give "three month pin talks." And that's a little bit of info on chips, cakes and medallions. Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle? It was introduced at the 20th Anniversary convention in St. Louis and registered as a trade mark in 1955. Bill had seen it during a visit to Norway and brought the idea back to the U.S. We have the symbols on the floor of one of the subway stations in Montreal. When was the grapevine first published? In its present form? The first issue of the GV was June 1944 in the form of a newspaper and it was 11X17 and 8 pages. It grew to 16 pages. In Spetember 1948 it was reduced to the present size. I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even some answers! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3261. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "Stump the Archivist" From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 12:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Carey Thomas Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:43 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Stump the Archivist" Our Area has started a idea called "Stump the Archivist." The four questions below have come from attendees at our Area business weekends. I have tried the search capability of our site, but have not mastered its capabilities. Probably the answers to these *questions* are there, but I could use some help...! Here is the first batch of four questions we have been asked: JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST To Area 15 From Area 65 Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? Bill W's mistress, Helen W, lived in New York at the time of their 15 year affair. Helen supposedly bought a home in Pleasantville, NY. She also became a Grapevine editor. Bill changed his will and royalty agreement with AA to make Helen the beneficiary of 10% of his royalties after he passed away. The most detailed information on her can be found in the book "Bill W' by Francis Hartigan. When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? Don't know. There would likely be too many locations claiming primacy on the matter to factually determine the matter conclusively. Sister Ignatia should be credited with starting the practice of giving alcoholics a sobriety token. She handed out Sacred Heart Badges to alcoholic patients leaving St Thomas Hospital in Akron, OH on the condition that they would return the badge to her prior to taking a first drink. See the book Sister Ignatia by Mary C Darrah. Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle? The logo first appeared on a large banner at AA's 2nd International Convention, and 10th Anniversary, in Kiel Auditorium, St Louis, MO, July 1-3, 1955. See "AA Comes of Age" pgs 49 and 139. When was the grapevine first published? In its present form? The August 1948 Grapevine announced that beginning September 1948, its format would be 5 1/2 x 7 1/2 inches and it would contain 32 pages. The change was based on a vote of subscribers. Early covers were kept simple, usually consisting of a grapevine sprig and a color background. Cheers Arthur I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even some answers! _\|/_ (o o) -----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey---------- Carey Thomas Archivist, Area 15 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3262. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Crooked thinking From: Jim Lynch . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 9:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The authors of our basic text make it clear earlier in the paragraph on page 140 that they have described fully the nature of the illness in chapters two and three, and suggest that the employer look there "If this presents difficulty,". The series of questions, of which the "crooked thinking" one is the final question, begins with the phrase, "If you concede that your employee is ill". I do not see anything new in this paragraph, rather it is restating some of the information from chapter 2 and 3 in different language. The chapter is written to help the employer see that "you may be suffering from an illness that only a spiritual experience will conquer." Jim an ex-problem drinker in Pittsburgh ----- Original Message ---- From: Charlene C. To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:57:04 PM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness. just a thought. C. Cook trixiebellaa wrote: hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3263. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Crooked thinking From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 11:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just the first paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written in the manner or with the intent that is often presumed in analyzing it (perhaps over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting it). The member who asked the question is using a form of reasoning that appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical gymnastics. It does little more than open the door to what can be an endless amount of speculation that serves more to distract rather than inform. Many Big Book chapters have a specific target audience (usually denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's employers. The underlying assumption that the importance of a sentence is somehow enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an early or later part of the book is a flawed assumption being treated as fact. The most popular, and perhaps important, portion of the Big Book, read at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How It Works." Trust me, there is no need to move this chapter further toward the beginning of the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on its own content as do all the other chapters. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlene C. Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness. just a thought. C. Cook trixiebellaa wrote: hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3264. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: sbanker914@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 5:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 3/16/2006 4:34:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, jct3@juno.com writes: Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? I found the following from Nan Robertson's book: . . . quotes Nan Robertson, author of Getting Better: Inside Alcoholics Anonymous (1988), as follows: "Particularly during his sober decades in AA in the forties, fifties, and sixties, Bill Wilson was a compulsive womanizer. His flirtations and his adulterous behavior filled him with guilt, but he continued to stray off the reservation. His last and most serious love affair . . . began when he was in his sixties. She was important to him until the end of his life, and was remembered in a financial agreement with AA. (p. 36)" This last mistress, Helen W., actually received 1.5% of the royalties from the Big Book after Bill's death. As for Bill's wife, Lois, "she never mentioned his philandering," writes Robertson in this history of AA's founders. Susan Banker NYC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3265. . . . . . . . . . . . There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me From: David A Putnam . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 8:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo, Canned Heat and Shoe Polish. I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone enlightem me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is? Thanks, Dave P Westmont Illinois Monday Night Big Book Meeting IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3266. . . . . . . . . . . . medallions From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 10:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a taped interview with Jimmy D. (Sober since 1947, died 1999) of Portland, Maine, he told me that Arthur W. gave out medallions to his pigeons. He apparently started this practice in 1946 after the Portland Group (still going) got started. Jimmy donated his medallions to the archives. Arthur got these from a company called Bright Star Press which at the time was in Illinois and I believe moved to Texas. I am not saying that the practice of medallions started here, just that this is the earliest I have heard of it in Maine. I also had an old timer tell me that they used to give out nickels to make phone calls. lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3267. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 10:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote: > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST > > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? > >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history. > > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? > >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays > > > > > >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of >the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the >history on them. > Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A. Tommy in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3268. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 3:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Bayzo" was a term first used during prohibition to describe someone who drank bay rum, because of its high alcohol content. Bay rum was used as an aftershave, and has that distinctive old school smell. _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David A Putnam Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:02 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] There' s Nothing The Matter With Me In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo, Canned Heat and Shoe Polish. I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone enlightem me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is? Thanks, Dave P Westmont Illinois Monday Night Big Book Meeting IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3269. . . . . . . . . . . . Sneaky Pete and Bayzo From: prpllady51 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 4:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sneaky Pete was slang for a pint bottle of cheap muscatel with grain alcohol added to pump up the proof to 40. It cost around 35 cents and was a flat bottle, which would fit in one's back pocket. Bayzo was the slang for Bay Rum. Bay rum was used as an aftershave. Jocelyn Parkway West Pittsburgh PA David A Putnam wrote: In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo, Canned Heat and Shoe Polish. I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone enlightem me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is? Thanks, Dave P Westmont Illinois Monday Night Big Book Meeting IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3270. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: medallions From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 8:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Lee wrote He apparently started this practice in 1946 after the Portland Group (still going) got started. Jimmy donated his medallions to the archives. Arthur got these from a company called Bright Star Press which at the time was in Illinois and I believe moved to Texas. Brigh Star's web site claims that they went into business in 1950. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3271. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stump the Archivists From: Carter Elliott . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 8:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As Bill Sees It contains thirty-one entries sourced to "Letter, 1966". Do we know if this letter was a single, philosophical essay or letters collected from his general correspondence? Carter E., Blacksburg, VA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3272. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: authorship of Chapter 10 From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 12:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" wrote: > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just the first > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written in the manner or > with the intent that is often presumed in analyzing it (perhaps > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting it). > > The member who asked the question is using a form of reasoning that > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical gymnastics. It does > little more than open the door to what can be an endless amount of > speculation that serves more to distract rather than inform. > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target audience (usually > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's employers. > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a sentence is somehow > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an early or later part of > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as fact. > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion of the Big Book, read > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How It Works." Trust me, > there is no need to move this chapter further toward the beginning of > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on its own content as > do all the other chapters. > > Cheers > Arthur > > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlene C. > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking > > it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a > spiritual mallody or terminal illness. > > just a thought. > C. Cook > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always found that hard to believe, based on the contrast between the divergent styles of Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. Hank's story, "The Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled with elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected that Bill Wilson did the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank supplied many of the ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock shared a small office in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I don't see any language in Hank's story which is similar to the content or style of Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit for the contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred to William James as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James had been dead for decades when AA was founded. The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order for employers. They're asking employers to read the Big Book and use it to "12 step" their employees. I don't see any information in Chapter 10 which is inconsistent with the first five chapters. The intended audience was different. It's not a different message. john lee member pittsburgh > trixiebellaa wrote: > hi history lovers, > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has > been > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol > > on his brain?" > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the > chapters at the beginning of the book. > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks from Tracy > The Barking Big Book Study Group > England > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery > Alcoholics anonymous > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3273. . . . . . . . . . . . the spirit of rotation From: wilfried antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2006 2:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can any one say when this saying: "The spirit of rotation" came into use"? and is it and its usage documented? thanks. wil IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3274. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: medallions From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 1:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Bright Star's web site claims that they went into business in 1950." As a matter of information, Bright Star is still a good source of medallions. But, there is also the point that in the earliest days poker chips inscribed with one's sobriety date on it were used as signs of lengths of sobriety. Which might be why tokens/medallions are sometimes referred to as chips. tmd IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3275. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. - One Man''s Story - Recording Information Sought From: Steve Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 11:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey All, I recently got a copy of a recording that had no information with it other than the title "One Man's Story" Here's a few things that might help: West Coast Outside Bill thanks a Mayor Lois speaks early in the tape Ebby Speaks early Bill makes reference to it being the Sunrise of AA Thanks, Steven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3276. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: David Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2006 5:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As Alcoholics Anonymous is "a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope," I'd have to say Bill W.'s life, the good, the bad and the ugly, is ALL a part of A.A. history, especially where it affected AAWS and it's legal agreements with him. Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for this group is quite good and uncovered the following: This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W. Of course, we have Art Sheehan's most recent post as well. These are purported copies of the actual will of Bill Wilson and mention : http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html and http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/heirs.htm. The relevant quote: "A. I give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his Will to take 10% royalties from his wife Lois and give those 10% to his mistress Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives me, a life interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If the said HELEN WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten percent (10%) of such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this Article FIRST." If anyone can corroborate the veracity of these documents OR disprove their veracity, I'd be most obliged. "We claim progress, not perfection." There is a desire among some AA history buffs to "sanitize" the progress and development of AA. When one begins to add up references to the "original message" and claiming only the first 164 pages (actually just the first 163 as p. 164 includes the line "We realize we only know but a little ....")are the "real" A.A., a trend towards fundamentalism and away from plurality can be seen. AA has helped me develop a personal relationship with a God loving and powerful enough to make use of even my defects of character. To acknowledge the humanness of AA's members, even it's founders, is also to come to appreciate the power of the principles of the program. L'Chaim! --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox wrote: > > At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote: > > > > > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST > > > > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? > > > >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history. > > > > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? > > > >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays > > > > > > > > > > > >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of > >the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the > >history on them. > > > > Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and > birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A. > > Tommy in Baton Rouge > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3277. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 2:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII David wrote As Alcoholics Anonymous is "a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope," I'd have to say Bill W.'s life, the good, the bad and the ugly, is ALL a part of A.A. history, especially where it affected AAWS and it's legal agreements with him. The agreement between Bill W. and the AAWS is no one's business but the officers of that corporation and the relatives of Bill W. Why can't members understand that. BTW, we share our experience, strength and hope in order that we may solve our common problem and help others to revover from alcoholism and not to delve into private business. Jim > > Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for > this group is quite good and uncovered the following: > > This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty > information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan > 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of > his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W. > > Of course, we have Art Sheehan's most recent post as well. > > These are purported copies of the actual will of Bill Wilson and > mention : http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html and > http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/heirs.htm. The relevant quote: "A. I > give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his Will to take 10% > royalties from his wife Lois and give those 10% to his mistress > Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives me, a life > interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If the said HELEN > WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten percent (10%) of > such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions > of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this Article FIRST." > > If anyone can corroborate the veracity of these documents OR disprove > their veracity, I'd be most obliged. > > "We claim progress, not perfection." There is a desire among some AA > history buffs to "sanitize" the progress and development of AA. When > one begins to add up references to the "original message" and claiming > only the first 164 pages (actually just the first 163 as p. 164 > includes the line "We realize we only know but a little ....")are the > "real" A.A., a trend towards fundamentalism and away from plurality > can be seen. > > AA has helped me develop a personal relationship with a God loving and > powerful enough to make use of even my defects of character. To > acknowledge the humanness of AA's members, even it's founders, is also > to come to appreciate the power of the principles of the program. > > L'Chaim! > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox > wrote: >> >> At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote: >> >> >> >> > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST >> > >> > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? >> > >> >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history. >> > >> > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? >> > >> >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different > parts of >> >the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some > of the >> >history on them. >> > >> >> Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and >> birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A. >> >> Tommy in Baton Rouge >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3278. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi David In regards to citing information from the AAHL archives please also include message 2933, subject: Bill W and Helen. ---------- Hi Merton Bill W, like any other human being, had his strengths and weaknesses. One of his weaknesses was reputedly a "fondness for the ladies." I am not out to demean Bill but we also should be careful not to elevate him to demigod status. The euphemism of "Founder's Watch" emanates from Francis Hartigan's book "Bill W" (re pg 192). Hartigan was told of it by Barry L (author of "Living Sober"). Hartigan reveals in detail Bill's relationship with his mistress Helen W. She was the woman for whom Bill changed his will and royalty agreement to bequeath her 10% of his book royalties. That had to be an excruciating embarrassment to Lois. Humans tend to be humans whether they are named Bill W or Bill Clinton or Dr Martin Luther King or John or Bobby Kennedy, etc., etc. Their human frailties should not diminish their extraordinary contributions to humanity. Cheers Arthur ---------- In the ('heirs.htm") web link that you reference in your message, download the PDF file that contains the last will and testament of Lois W (it should be W.pdf). It contains photo-copies of her actual will and relevant documents (as opposed to transcriptions). Bill's will and codicil are also contained in Lois W will. Cheers Again -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Johnson Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 4:14 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "Stump the Archivist" As Alcoholics Anonymous is "a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope," I'd have to say Bill W.'s life, the good, the bad and the ugly, is ALL a part of A.A. history, especially where it affected AAWS and it's legal agreements with him. Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for this group is quite good and uncovered the following: This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W. Of course, we have Art Sheehan's most recent post as well. These are purported copies of the actual will of Bill Wilson and mention : http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html and http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/heirs.htm. The relevant quote: "A. I give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his Will to take 10% royalties from his wife Lois and give those 10% to his mistress Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives me, a life interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If the said HELEN WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten percent (10%) of such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this Article FIRST." If anyone can corroborate the veracity of these documents OR disprove their veracity, I'd be most obliged. "We claim progress, not perfection." There is a desire among some AA history buffs to "sanitize" the progress and development of AA. When one begins to add up references to the "original message" and claiming only the first 164 pages (actually just the first 163 as p. 164 includes the line "We realize we only know but a little ....")are the "real" A.A., a trend towards fundamentalism and away from plurality can be seen. AA has helped me develop a personal relationship with a God loving and powerful enough to make use of even my defects of character. To acknowledge the humanness of AA's members, even it's founders, is also to come to appreciate the power of the principles of the program. L'Chaim! --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox wrote: > > At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote: > > > > > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST > > > > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? > > > >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history. > > > > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? > > > >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays > > > > > > > > > > > >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of > >the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the > >history on them. > > > > Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and > birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A. > > Tommy in Baton Rouge > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3279. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: the spirit of rotation From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 4:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Abby G (whose Big Book story is "He Thought He Could Drink Like a Gentleman") was an AA pioneer in Cleveland, OH. He is credited with instituting the practice and principle of rotation in stepping down from his position on the Cleveland Central Committee. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wilfried antheunis Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 1:24 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] the spirit of rotation Can any one say when this saying: "The spirit of rotation" came into use"? and is it and its usage documented? thanks. wil Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3280. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: authorship of Chapter 10 From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 7:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If one just takes a written story published in the Big Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is not doing diligent service to historical research. There are several letters written by Hank and other documents, including oral histories which give authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth, Clarence and others as well as my reading several letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to believe Hank was the author. --- johnlawlee wrote: > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" > > wrote: > > > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just > the first > > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. > > > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written > in the manner or > > with the intent that is often presumed in > analyzing it (perhaps > > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting > it). > > > > The member who asked the question is using a form > of reasoning that > > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical > gymnastics. It does > > little more than open the door to what can be an > endless amount of > > speculation that serves more to distract rather > than inform. > > > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target > audience (usually > > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's > employers. > > > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a > sentence is > somehow > > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an > early or later part > of > > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as > fact. > > > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion > of the Big Book, > read > > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How > It Works." Trust > me, > > there is no need to move this chapter further > toward the beginning > of > > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on > its own content > as > > do all the other chapters. > > > > Cheers > > Arthur > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Charlene C. > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking > > > > it would be my guess that employers are more > inclined to think in > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. > especially in that > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a > moral dilema than a > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness. > > > > just a thought. > > C. Cook > > > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of > > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always > found that hard > to believe, based on the contrast between the > divergent styles of > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. > Hank's story, "The > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled > with > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected > that Bill Wilson did > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank > supplied many of the > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock > shared a small office > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I > don't see any > language in Hank's story which is similar to the > content or style of > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit > for the > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred > to William James > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James > had been dead for > decades when AA was founded. > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order > for employers. > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and > use it to "12 step" > their employees. I don't see any information in > Chapter 10 which is > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The > intended audience was > different. It's not a different message. > john lee > member > pittsburgh > > trixiebellaa wrote: > > hi history lovers, > > > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be > appreciated that he has > > been > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by > the action of > alcohol > > > > on his brain?" > > > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such > an important piece > of > > > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of > perhaps one of > the > > chapters at the beginning of the book. > > > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks from Tracy > > The Barking Big Book Study Group > > England > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from > addiction > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction > recovery > > Alcoholics anonymous > > > > --------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > to: > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Mail > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > attachments. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3281. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 6:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To my knowledge and from the sources (other than Orange papers which got the info from aamo) I do believe these documents to be copies of the originals which are a matter of public record. --- David Johnson wrote: > As Alcoholics Anonymous is "a fellowship of men and > women who share > their experience, strength and hope," I'd have to > say Bill W.'s life, > the good, the bad and the ugly, is ALL a part of > A.A. history, > especially where it affected AAWS and it's legal > agreements with him. > > Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The > "search" function for > this group is quite good and uncovered the > following: > > This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger > post on royalty > information re: The Big Book. The author: Art > Sheehan > 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS > so that 10% of > his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine > Editor, Helen W. > > Of course, we have Art Sheehan's most recent post as > well. > > These are purported copies of the actual will of > Bill Wilson and > mention : > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html > and > http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/heirs.htm. The > relevant quote: "A. I > give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his > Will to take 10% > royalties from his wife Lois and give those 10% to > his mistress > Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives > me, a life > interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If > the said HELEN > WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten > percent (10%) of > such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance > with the provisions > of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this > Article FIRST." > > If anyone can corroborate the veracity of these > documents OR disprove > their veracity, I'd be most obliged. > > "We claim progress, not perfection." There is a > desire among some AA > history buffs to "sanitize" the progress and > development of AA. When > one begins to add up references to the "original > message" and claiming > only the first 164 pages (actually just the first > 163 as p. 164 > includes the line "We realize we only know but a > little ....")are the > "real" A.A., a trend towards fundamentalism and away > from plurality > can be seen. > > AA has helped me develop a personal relationship > with a God loving and > powerful enough to make use of even my defects of > character. To > acknowledge the humanness of AA's members, even it's > founders, is also > to come to appreciate the power of the principles of > the program. > > L'Chaim! > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox > > wrote: > > > > At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote: > > > > > > > > > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST > > > > > > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in > Miami? > > > > > >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do > with AA history. > > > > > > When and where did the poker chip tradition > start for the groups? > > > > > >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays > vary in different > parts of > > >the country and I thought it would be interesting > to look up some > of the > > >history on them. > > > > > > > Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, > and > > birthdays/anniversaries. They are local > traditions and not part of A.A. > > > > Tommy in Baton Rouge > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3282. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: authorship of Chapter 10 From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2006 6:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > Mitchell: I stand by my earlier posting. The person who wrote "The Unbeliever" is not the person who wrote "To Employers". There is absolutely no overlap between the two, although they were both written in 1938 or early 1939. I don't believe you can point to a single phrase in "The Unbeliever" which supplies language/terms/style similar to that found in "To Employers"; for that matter, there is no language or phrasing in "The Unbeliever" which is similar to language or phrasing in any part of the Big Book. "The Unbeliever" is a farrago, a confused mess...staccato, almost hallucinatory style. "The Unbeliever" was not written by the person who wrote Chapter 10. On the other hand, every paragraph of Chapter 10 contains phrases found in other chapters of the basic text. As just one example, out of dozens I could give, pages 143-44 of Chapter 10 talk about the "subject matter" of this book. "It contains full suggestions by which the employee may solve his problem." Compare 143- 44 with the similar language found on page 45 of the earlier Chapter 4, about the "main object" of the book ["to find a Power...which will solve your problem"]. I'd be happy to go over Chapter 10 with you, line by line, and point out where phrases from Chapter 10 are used identically, elsewhere in the Big Book. The person who wrote Chapter 10 borrowed heavily from the other ten chapters of the Big Book. It defies belief that Hank wrote Chapter 10 in isolation. If Hank did in fact compose Chapter 10, he was a liberal plagiarist who copied Bill Wilson's exact language and writing style. Hank would have also completely changed his writing style and language in a six month period,and discarded all his ideas from his own story. The better view is that all eleven chapters of the Big Book were drafted by the same person. They were not written at all by the person who authored "The Unbeliever". I have no doubt that Hank claimed in Hank's correspondence that Hank authored Chapter 10. In a similar vein, Ebby Thatcher loved to refer to himself as a "founder" of AA. I have no doubt that Hank's one- time brother-in law, Clarence S., gave Hank credit for Chapter 10. I have no doubt that Hank's ideas made their way into Chapter 10. Hank was a former Standard Oil executive, who shared a small office in Newark with Bill Wilson and Ruth Hock. Bill Wilson composed Chapters 1 through 11, no doubt running ideas past Hank in their office every day. Bill Wilson gave Hank credit for Chapter 10, even though Bill had done the writing. In summary, it should be undisputed that Bill Wilson was the author [the "principal" author, if you prefer] of Chapters 1 through 11. There is nothing in Hank's first edition story to suggest that Hank composed Chapter 10. Although Bill had some character defects, hugging credit was not one of them. Bill publically praised William James, Sam Shoemaker and Ebby Thatcher as "founders" of AA. It should not be surprising that Bill would be equally modest in allowing Hank to take credit for Chapter 10. love+service john lee pittsburgh > If one just takes a written story published in the Big > Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is > not doing diligent service to historical research. > There are several letters written by Hank and other > documents, including oral histories which give > authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish > I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me > Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping > Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth, > Clarence and others as well as my reading several > letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to > believe Hank was the author. > > > > --- johnlawlee wrote: > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just > > the first > > > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. > > > > > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written > > in the manner or > > > with the intent that is often presumed in > > analyzing it (perhaps > > > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting > > it). > > > > > > The member who asked the question is using a form > > of reasoning that > > > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical > > gymnastics. It does > > > little more than open the door to what can be an > > endless amount of > > > speculation that serves more to distract rather > > than inform. > > > > > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target > > audience (usually > > > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's > > employers. > > > > > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a > > sentence is > > somehow > > > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an > > early or later part > > of > > > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as > > fact. > > > > > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion > > of the Big Book, > > read > > > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How > > It Works." Trust > > me, > > > there is no need to move this chapter further > > toward the beginning > > of > > > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on > > its own content > > as > > > do all the other chapters. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Arthur > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > > Of Charlene C. > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM > > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking > > > > > > it would be my guess that employers are more > > inclined to think in > > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. > > especially in that > > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a > > moral dilema than a > > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness. > > > > > > just a thought. > > > C. Cook > > > > > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of > > > > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always > > found that hard > > to believe, based on the contrast between the > > divergent styles of > > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. > > Hank's story, "The > > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled > > with > > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected > > that Bill Wilson did > > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank > > supplied many of the > > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock > > shared a small office > > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I > > don't see any > > language in Hank's story which is similar to the > > content or style of > > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit > > for the > > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred > > to William James > > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James > > had been dead for > > decades when AA was founded. > > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order > > for employers. > > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and > > use it to "12 step" > > their employees. I don't see any information in > > Chapter 10 which is > > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The > > intended audience was > > different. It's not a different message. > > john lee > > member > > pittsburgh > > > trixiebellaa wrote: > > > hi history lovers, > > > > > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be > > appreciated that he has > > > been > > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by > > the action of > > alcohol > > > > > > on his brain?" > > > > > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such > > an important piece > > of > > > > > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of > > perhaps one of > > the > > > chapters at the beginning of the book. > > > > > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > Thanks from Tracy > > > The Barking Big Book Study Group > > > England > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from > > addiction > > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction > > recovery > > > Alcoholics anonymous > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > > to: > > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Mail > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > > attachments. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3283. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Digest Number 875 From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2006 10:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To History Lovers, RE: BillW and Helen W. The new biography of Lois Wilson, "Lois Wilson, When Love is not enough" by William Borchert has a different interpretation of the payment of royalties to Bill's long time secretary. He does not mention an affair in this regard. Sincerely, Art Boudreault Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for > this group is quite good and uncovered the following: > > This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty > information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan > 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of > his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3284. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: authorship of Chapter 10 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2006 8:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John In this forum, if we are to be true propagating history, then we should impose upon ourselves the discipline of sticking to articles of fact rather than articles of faith or speculation. Otherwise debate and editorials take precedence over historical reporting. Please refer to "Pass It On" (page 200) which states "Bill wrote at least ten of the opening chapters of the book; there is some reason to believe that "To Employers" may have been written by Hank." This Conference-approved book, was published in 1984. A member of this forum is its primary author of "pass It On." If the statement in the book did not have merit, it would have been excised some time ago. Mitchell K, also an author, relayed information he received through testimonial from Ruth Hock (a first person observer). Merton M, a member of this forum, is researching a comprehensive history of AA in New Jersey (which was started by Hank P). Merton also attributes authorship of "To Employers" to Hank P based on his research (and he is a bit of a stickler for accurate details). All you offer in rebuttal is a rather obscure hypothesis that since the style and content of Hank's Big Book story are different than the chapter "To Employers" that excludes Hank from authoring the chapter. There is no compelling reason why the styles of these two items should be identical or even similar. Hank also wrote a prospectus for the Big Book whose style is altogether different than his story. The prospectus is quite well structured, precise and cogent. Hank was previously a Vice-president for Standard Oil and would have been eminently qualified to write the chapter from the perspective of an employer. It was a type of experience that Bill didn't have (although Bill wasn't a wife either but wrote the chapter "To Wives"). The idea that Bill only wrote the first paragraph of "To Employers" in no way detracts from or diminishes his role in the overall production of the Big Book. Bill's methodology for writing the Big Book chapters was for him to develop an outline of the chapters on a yellow legal pad and then later dictate narrative details to Ruth Hock to type up drafts. The drafts were then presented to NY, Akron and Cleveland members for editing and changes. The consistency of terminology and style among the chapters was a function of membership review not of Bill's writing style, personal preferences or attention to detail. The Big Book is unique in that it is the only literary work in AA where everyone who was a member at the time (1938-1939) had an opportunity to directly contribute to shaping both the wording and style of the book. This also included non-alcoholic friends of AA: 1. Dr Silkworth wrote a letter of support for AA for use in fundraising for the book. The letter, and additional narrative from Dr Silkworth, were incorporated into the chapter "The Doctor's Opinion." 2. 28 members submitted their stories for the book. These stories, then and today, make up a substantial and very important portion of the Big Book (notwithstanding the tiresome "first 164 pages" mantra that circulates within AA). 3. Jim B (whose story is "Vicious Cycle") suggested the phrases "God as we understand Him" and "Power greater than ourselves" be added to the Steps and basic text. 4. A psychiatrist "Dr Howard" (an alias) caused the whole tone of the book to be changed from "must" to "should" or "ought." 5. Tom Uzzell, a friend of Hank P, an editor at Collier's and a member of the NYU faculty, edited the manuscript which was variously estimated as 600-800 pages (including personal stories). Uzzell reduced it to approximately 400 pages. Most cuts came from the personal stories, which had also been edited by Jim S of Akron and Bill W and Hank P in NY. The Big Book is a product of informed group conscience and, as a consequence, it turned out to be a very remarkable product. By his own admission, Bill wrote that his role eventually changed from one of primary author to umpire. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnlawlee Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:40 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: authorship of Chapter 10 --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > Mitchell: I stand by my earlier posting. The person who wrote "The Unbeliever" is not the person who wrote "To Employers". There is absolutely no overlap between the two, although they were both written in 1938 or early 1939. I don't believe you can point to a single phrase in "The Unbeliever" which supplies language/terms/style similar to that found in "To Employers"; for that matter, there is no language or phrasing in "The Unbeliever" which is similar to language or phrasing in any part of the Big Book. "The Unbeliever" is a farrago, a confused mess...staccato, almost hallucinatory style. "The Unbeliever" was not written by the person who wrote Chapter 10. On the other hand, every paragraph of Chapter 10 contains phrases found in other chapters of the basic text. As just one example, out of dozens I could give, pages 143-44 of Chapter 10 talk about the "subject matter" of this book. "It contains full suggestions by which the employee may solve his problem." Compare 143- 44 with the similar language found on page 45 of the earlier Chapter 4, about the "main object" of the book ["to find a Power...which will solve your problem"]. I'd be happy to go over Chapter 10 with you, line by line, and point out where phrases from Chapter 10 are used identically, elsewhere in the Big Book. The person who wrote Chapter 10 borrowed heavily from the other ten chapters of the Big Book. It defies belief that Hank wrote Chapter 10 in isolation. If Hank did in fact compose Chapter 10, he was a liberal plagiarist who copied Bill Wilson's exact language and writing style. Hank would have also completely changed his writing style and language in a six month period,and discarded all his ideas from his own story. The better view is that all eleven chapters of the Big Book were drafted by the same person. They were not written at all by the person who authored "The Unbeliever". I have no doubt that Hank claimed in Hank's correspondence that Hank authored Chapter 10. In a similar vein, Ebby Thatcher loved to refer to himself as a "founder" of AA. I have no doubt that Hank's one- time brother-in law, Clarence S., gave Hank credit for Chapter 10. I have no doubt that Hank's ideas made their way into Chapter 10. Hank was a former Standard Oil executive, who shared a small office in Newark with Bill Wilson and Ruth Hock. Bill Wilson composed Chapters 1 through 11, no doubt running ideas past Hank in their office every day. Bill Wilson gave Hank credit for Chapter 10, even though Bill had done the writing. In summary, it should be undisputed that Bill Wilson was the author [the "principal" author, if you prefer] of Chapters 1 through 11. There is nothing in Hank's first edition story to suggest that Hank composed Chapter 10. Although Bill had some character defects, hugging credit was not one of them. Bill publically praised William James, Sam Shoemaker and Ebby Thatcher as "founders" of AA. It should not be surprising that Bill would be equally modest in allowing Hank to take credit for Chapter 10. love+service john lee pittsburgh > If one just takes a written story published in the Big > Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is > not doing diligent service to historical research. > There are several letters written by Hank and other > documents, including oral histories which give > authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish > I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me > Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping > Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth, > Clarence and others as well as my reading several > letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to > believe Hank was the author. > > > > --- johnlawlee wrote: > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just > > the first > > > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. > > > > > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written > > in the manner or > > > with the intent that is often presumed in > > analyzing it (perhaps > > > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting > > it). > > > > > > The member who asked the question is using a form > > of reasoning that > > > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical > > gymnastics. It does > > > little more than open the door to what can be an > > endless amount of > > > speculation that serves more to distract rather > > than inform. > > > > > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target > > audience (usually > > > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's > > employers. > > > > > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a > > sentence is > > somehow > > > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an > > early or later part > > of > > > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as > > fact. > > > > > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion > > of the Big Book, > > read > > > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How > > It Works." Trust > > me, > > > there is no need to move this chapter further > > toward the beginning > > of > > > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on > > its own content > > as > > > do all the other chapters. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Arthur > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > > Of Charlene C. > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM > > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking > > > > > > it would be my guess that employers are more > > inclined to think in > > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. > > especially in that > > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a > > moral dilema than a > > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness. > > > > > > just a thought. > > > C. Cook > > > > > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of > > > > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always > > found that hard > > to believe, based on the contrast between the > > divergent styles of > > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. > > Hank's story, "The > > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled > > with > > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected > > that Bill Wilson did > > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank > > supplied many of the > > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock > > shared a small office > > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I > > don't see any > > language in Hank's story which is similar to the > > content or style of > > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit > > for the > > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred > > to William James > > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James > > had been dead for > > decades when AA was founded. > > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order > > for employers. > > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and > > use it to "12 step" > > their employees. I don't see any information in > > Chapter 10 which is > > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The > > intended audience was > > different. It's not a different message. > > john lee > > member > > pittsburgh > > > trixiebellaa wrote: > > > hi history lovers, > > > > > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be > > appreciated that he has > > > been > > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by > > the action of > > alcohol > > > > > > on his brain?" > > > > > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such > > an important piece > > of > > > > > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of > > perhaps one of > > the > > > chapters at the beginning of the book. > > > > > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > Thanks from Tracy > > > The Barking Big Book Study Group > > > England > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from > > addiction > > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction > > recovery > > > Alcoholics anonymous > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > > to: > > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Mail > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > > attachments. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3285. . . . . . . . . . . . about poker chips From: Jari Kokkinen . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2006 12:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everyone! must tell you about an incident that relates to poker chips. About a year ago I saw the film "Sting" and in it the players in a poker game used chips that had the symbols of AA - the circle inside the triangle on their reverse side. I wonder if anybody would have any comments clarifying that coincidence or would just have noticed the same thing? In Sobriety, Jari - an AA from Finland --------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3286. . . . . . . . . . . . To Employers and Wives (was: authorship ...) From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 11:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Let me go back to one of the original questions of why the Big Book puts "important information" in chapters To Wives and To Employers instead of at the "front of the book." The title of a chapter does not imply its sole intended audience. Should alcoholics who don't consider themselves to be agnostics skip the We Agnostics chapter? These chapters give the alcoholic reader a chance to see alcoholism from a different point of view. Bill overheard Dr. Silkworth tell Lois what would happen if Bill continued drinking. This caught his attention. Anonymous Number Three overheard Bill say to Dr. Bob, "Well, I believe he's worth saving and working on." Often what we overhear about ourselves has more impact than what is said directly to us. And, of course, the Stories section contains "our personal adventures before and after." There is "important information" there too. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3287. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. - One Man''s Story - Recording Information Sought From: Mike and Sarah . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2006 12:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 3-23-06 About 'One Man's Story' - It's from the 1960 25th Anniversary of AA, 3rd International Convention held at Long Beach California. Mike -----Original Message----- >From: Steve Leeds >Sent: Mar 20, 2006 8:35 AM >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W. - One Man's Story - Recording Information Sought > >Hey All, > >I recently got a copy of a recording that had no information with it >other than the title "One Man's Story" > >Here's a few things that might help: > >West Coast >Outside >Bill thanks a Mayor >Lois speaks early in the tape >Ebby Speaks early >Bill makes reference to it being the Sunrise of AA > >Thanks, >Steven > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: authorship of Chapter 10/Openmindedness From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 10:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Art: Text comparison is not an "obscure hypothesis." Text comparison is the primary method used by historians to resolve disputes in authorship and authenticity. Witness the current trial going on in London over the borrowed language in the DaVinci Code novel. Text comparison is used to determine the source of writings, be they those of Mozart, Hemingway, or the Dead Sea Scrolls. The claim that Hank Parkhurst authored Chapter 10 of the Big Book is an AA myth. The myth was initiated by the boastings of Hank, and perpetuated by the anti=Bill Wilson faction of AA. There are many myths in the AA Conference-approved literature. Doctor Bob did not have his last drink on June 10th. Herbert Spencer did not author the quote attributed to him in the Spiritual Experience Appendix. William James never indicated that the educational variety of spiritual experience "develop[s] slowly", as claimed in Appendix I of the Big Book. Hank's story in the first edition big book is an incohesive mess. It represents Hank's view of his own alcoholism, and was written in the exact time period that Bill Wilson was dictating the first eleven chapters of the Big Book. "The Unbeliever" is rambling, choppy and laughably melodramatic. It's a bunch of phrasings strung together in no particular order, punctuated by constant ellipses, exclamation points and question marks. As I've indicated in my two previous postings, there is no language/terms/style in Hank's story similar to the language/terms/style of Chapter 10 ["To Employers"]. The person who wrote "The Unbeliever" was incapable of writing the cohesive, integrated message set forth in "To Employers". Your reliance on Pass It On is misplaced. That book, published in 1984, only says that there is "some reason to believe"...that Chapter 10 "may" have been written by Hank. That's hardly a ringing endorsement of authorship by Hank P. Let's look at a PRIMARY source, to wit, Bill Wilson's signed Forward at the front of "As Bill Sees It" [originally called "The AA Way Of Life"]. Bill's Forward, dated April 1967, asserts that it has been his "privilege to write the following: the text of Alcoholic Anonymous..." There...that should be the end of this discussion. Wilson does not accredit Hank with authorship of any part of the basic text. Bill is a PRIMARY source. The statement of authorship was made and signed by the author, in a conference approved publication. The myth that Hank wrote Chapter 10 is based on second or third hand impressions of those familiar with Hank's boasting. Hank was a big idea guy. He was not a writer of any merit. He was a sales manager, not a writer. Bill Wilson was not a "good" writer, but he was a precise writer who composed chapters that were cohesive and related to each other. It is unfortunate that the interviewer of Ruth Hock did not ask Ruth for any details about the writing of Chapter 10, which details could confirm Hank's participation in the writing of that Chapter. Ruth is a good source for information on the drafting of the Big Book. It would have been most helpful if Ruth had said, "Yes. I'll never forget that rainy Monday morning Hank got into the office early, with a sheaf of handwritten notes about our book. Bill was so relieved, because we had been waiting weeks for Hank to finish his chapter, so we could send the manuscript to the groups." What do I think happened? Hank lobbied for the assignment of writing the chapter "To Employers"; however, Hank never got around to actually writing the chapter. Tired of waiting for Hank's contribution, Bill wrote Chapter 10 himself, and sent out the manuscript. Hank subsequently claimed credit for Chapter 10 to anyone who would listen. Hank's confabulation became an AA myth. Bill Wilson acquiesced to the myth. By 1967, there was no longer any reason for Bill to carry the myth. Bill publically re-established his authorship in the Forward to As Bill Sees It in 1967. In fairness to Hank, the Big Book would have never been published without Hank's efforts. I suspect the whole idea of a basic text was Hank's idea rather than Bill's. Hank stood elbow-to- elbow with Bill for months while Bill dictated the basic text to Ruth. I'm sure Hank's ideas were constantly being injected into the basic text as it was being drafted. Hank just didn't do the actual drafting, dictating or composing. He was a talker, an idea guy. Hank was an unstable man. He made wild claims that he hadn't been paid for his office furniture, and that the records and accounts of Works Publishing had been stolen. Hank made trips to Ohio to undermine Bill Wilson. Bill displayed continuing forbearance towards Hank, and towards Bill's antagonists in Ohio. In summary, there is no language in the First Edition to suggest that Hank wrote Chapter 10. That myth is based on Hank's bald claims of authorship. A conference approved Forward from Bill Wilson in 1967 confirms that Bill wrote the text of the Big Book. Pass it on. johm lee pittsburgh > > Hi John > > In this forum, if we are to be true propagating history, then we > should impose upon ourselves the discipline of sticking to articles of > fact rather than articles of faith or speculation. Otherwise debate > and editorials take precedence over historical reporting. > > Please refer to "Pass It On" (page 200) which states "Bill wrote at > least ten of the opening chapters of the book; there is some reason to > believe that "To Employers" may have been written by Hank." This > Conference-approved book, was published in 1984. > > A member of this forum is its primary author of "pass It On." If the > statement in the book did not have merit, it would have been excised > some time ago. Mitchell K, also an author, relayed information he > received through testimonial from Ruth Hock (a first person observer). > Merton M, a member of this forum, is researching a comprehensive > history of AA in New Jersey (which was started by Hank P). Merton also > attributes authorship of "To Employers" to Hank P based on his > research (and he is a bit of a stickler for accurate details). > > All you offer in rebuttal is a rather obscure hypothesis that since > the style and content of Hank's Big Book story are different than the > chapter "To Employers" that excludes Hank from authoring the chapter. > > There is no compelling reason why the styles of these two items should > be identical or even similar. Hank also wrote a prospectus for the Big > Book whose style is altogether different than his story. The > prospectus is quite well structured, precise and cogent. > > Hank was previously a Vice-president for Standard Oil and would have > been eminently qualified to write the chapter from the perspective of > an employer. It was a type of experience that Bill didn't have > (although Bill wasn't a wife either but wrote the chapter "To Wives"). > > The idea that Bill only wrote the first paragraph of "To Employers" in > no way detracts from or diminishes his role in the overall production > of the Big Book. Bill's methodology for writing the Big Book chapters > was for him to develop an outline of the chapters on a yellow legal > pad and then later dictate narrative details to Ruth Hock to type up > drafts. > > The drafts were then presented to NY, Akron and Cleveland members for > editing and changes. The consistency of terminology and style among > the chapters was a function of membership review not of Bill's writing > style, personal preferences or attention to detail. > > The Big Book is unique in that it is the only literary work in AA > where everyone who was a member at the time (1938-1939) had an > opportunity to directly contribute to shaping both the wording and > style of the book. This also included non-alcoholic friends of AA: > > 1. Dr Silkworth wrote a letter of support for AA for use in > fundraising for the book. The letter, and additional narrative from Dr > Silkworth, were incorporated into the chapter "The Doctor's Opinion." > > 2. 28 members submitted their stories for the book. These stories, > then and today, make up a substantial and very important portion of > the Big Book (notwithstanding the tiresome "first 164 pages" mantra > that circulates within AA). > > 3. Jim B (whose story is "Vicious Cycle") suggested the phrases "God > as we understand Him" and "Power greater than ourselves" be added to > the Steps and basic text. > > 4. A psychiatrist "Dr Howard" (an alias) caused the whole tone of the > book to be changed from "must" to "should" or "ought." > > 5. Tom Uzzell, a friend of Hank P, an editor at Collier's and a member > of the NYU faculty, edited the manuscript which was variously > estimated as 600-800 pages (including personal stories). Uzzell > reduced it to approximately 400 pages. Most cuts came from the > personal stories, which had also been edited by Jim S of Akron and > Bill W and Hank P in NY. > > The Big Book is a product of informed group conscience and, as a > consequence, it turned out to be a very remarkable product. By his own > admission, Bill wrote that his role eventually changed from one of > primary author to umpire. > > Cheers > Arthur > > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnlawlee > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:40 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: authorship of Chapter 10 > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." > wrote: > > > Mitchell: > I stand by my earlier posting. The person who wrote > "The Unbeliever" is not the person who wrote "To Employers". > There is absolutely no overlap between the two, although they > were both written in 1938 or early 1939. I don't believe you can > point to a single phrase in "The Unbeliever" which supplies > language/terms/style similar to that found in "To Employers"; for > that matter, there is no language or phrasing in "The Unbeliever" > which is similar to language or phrasing in any part of the Big Book. > "The Unbeliever" is a farrago, a confused mess...staccato, almost > hallucinatory style. "The Unbeliever" was not written by the person > who wrote Chapter 10. On the other hand, every paragraph of Chapter > 10 contains phrases found in other chapters of the basic text. As > just one example, out of dozens I could give, pages 143-44 of Chapter > 10 talk about the "subject matter" of this book. "It contains full > suggestions by which the employee may solve his problem." Compare 143- > 44 with the similar language found on page 45 of the earlier Chapter > 4, about the "main object" of the book ["to find a Power...which will > solve your problem"]. I'd be happy to go over Chapter 10 with you, > line by line, and point out where phrases from Chapter 10 are used > identically, elsewhere in the Big Book. The person who wrote Chapter > 10 borrowed heavily from the other ten chapters of the Big Book. > It defies belief that Hank wrote Chapter 10 in isolation. If Hank did > in fact compose Chapter 10, he was a liberal plagiarist who copied > Bill Wilson's exact language and writing style. Hank would have also > completely changed his writing style and language in a six month > period,and discarded all his ideas from his own story. The better > view is that all eleven chapters of the Big Book were drafted by the > same person. They were not written at all by the person who > authored "The Unbeliever". > I have no doubt that Hank claimed in Hank's correspondence that Hank > authored Chapter 10. In a similar vein, Ebby Thatcher loved to refer > to himself as a "founder" of AA. I have no doubt that Hank's one- > time brother-in law, Clarence S., gave Hank credit for Chapter 10. I > have no doubt that Hank's ideas made their way into Chapter 10. Hank > was a former Standard Oil executive, who shared a small office in > Newark with Bill Wilson and Ruth Hock. Bill Wilson composed Chapters > 1 through 11, no doubt running ideas past Hank in their office every > day. Bill Wilson gave Hank credit for Chapter 10, even though Bill > had done the writing. > In summary, it should be undisputed that Bill Wilson was the author > [the "principal" author, if you prefer] of Chapters 1 through 11. > There is nothing in Hank's first edition story to suggest that Hank > composed Chapter 10. Although Bill had some character defects, > hugging credit was not one of them. Bill publically praised William > James, Sam Shoemaker and Ebby Thatcher as "founders" of AA. It should > not be surprising that Bill would be equally modest in allowing Hank > to take credit for Chapter 10. > love+service > john lee > pittsburgh > > > > If one just takes a written story published in the Big > > Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is > > not doing diligent service to historical research. > > There are several letters written by Hank and other > > documents, including oral histories which give > > authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish > > I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me > > Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping > > Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth, > > Clarence and others as well as my reading several > > letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to > > believe Hank was the author. > > > > > > > > --- johnlawlee wrote: > > > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just > > > the first > > > > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. > > > > > > > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written > > > in the manner or > > > > with the intent that is often presumed in > > > analyzing it (perhaps > > > > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting > > > it). > > > > > > > > The member who asked the question is using a form > > > of reasoning that > > > > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical > > > gymnastics. It does > > > > little more than open the door to what can be an > > > endless amount of > > > > speculation that serves more to distract rather > > > than inform. > > > > > > > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target > > > audience (usually > > > > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's > > > employers. > > > > > > > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a > > > sentence is > > > somehow > > > > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an > > > early or later part > > > of > > > > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as > > > fact. > > > > > > > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion > > > of the Big Book, > > > read > > > > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How > > > It Works." Trust > > > me, > > > > there is no need to move this chapter further > > > toward the beginning > > > of > > > > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on > > > its own content > > > as > > > > do all the other chapters. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Arthur > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > > > Of Charlene C. > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM > > > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking > > > > > > > > it would be my guess that employers are more > > > inclined to think in > > > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. > > > especially in that > > > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a > > > moral dilema than a > > > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness. > > > > > > > > just a thought. > > > > C. Cook > > > > > > > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of > > > > > > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always > > > found that hard > > > to believe, based on the contrast between the > > > divergent styles of > > > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. > > > Hank's story, "The > > > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled > > > with > > > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected > > > that Bill Wilson did > > > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank > > > supplied many of the > > > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock > > > shared a small office > > > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I > > > don't see any > > > language in Hank's story which is similar to the > > > content or style of > > > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit > > > for the > > > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred > > > to William James > > > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James > > > had been dead for > > > decades when AA was founded. > > > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order > > > for employers. > > > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and > > > use it to "12 step" > > > their employees. I don't see any information in > > > Chapter 10 which is > > > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The > > > intended audience was > > > different. It's not a different message. > > > john lee > > > member > > > pittsburgh > > > > trixiebellaa wrote: > > > > hi history lovers, > > > > > > > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be > > > appreciated that he has > > > > been > > > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by > > > the action of > > > alcohol > > > > > > > > on his brain?" > > > > > > > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such > > > an important piece > > > of > > > > > > > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of > > > perhaps one of > > > the > > > > chapters at the beginning of the book. > > > > > > > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > Thanks from Tracy > > > > The Barking Big Book Study Group > > > > England > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from > > > addiction > > > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction > > > recovery > > > > Alcoholics anonymous > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > > > to: > > > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > > Yahoo! Terms of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Yahoo! Mail > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > > > attachments. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3289. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: authorship of Chapter 10/Openmindedness From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 10:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A conference approved Forward from Bill Wilson in 1967 confirms that Bill wrote the text of the Big Book.... That settles it! All historical research means nothing. Documents mean nothing. Oral histories mean nothing. All of the work done by historians, researchers, archivists, librarians etc are for nothing. An approval by a so-called conference of expert AA historians and archivists after extensive review of the documents confirmed that Bill alone wrote the text of the Big Book. The fact that Bill himself wrote that he was more of a referee than author counts for nothing. The fact that the manuscript chapters were reviewed, re-written and debated by virtually all the founding members means nothing. Bill, in a vacuum wrote the Big Book by himself. The subject of openmindedness mixed with the myopic prejudiced views expressed denegrates this group and its value in the study and bringing forth of factual AA history vs so-called conference approved sanitized versions. If I remember correctly....didn't some sort of conference approval prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the world was flat? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3290. . . . . . . . . . . . Authorship of "To Employers" From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 6:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The questioning of the authorship of "To Employers" sent me to reread my copy of Lois Remenbers. On page 114 Lois states "Therefore I had expected Bill to ask me to write the chapter "To Wives" and perhaps the following one, "The Family Afterward." When I shyly suggested this, he said no; he thought the book, except for the stories, should all be written in the same style. I have never known why he didn't want me to write about the wives, and it hurt me at first; but our lives were so full that I didn't have time to think about it much." If Bill W. has assigned the writing of "To Employers" to Hank P., he could not have used writing style as a reason to not allow Lois to write a chapter or chapters and Lois would have noted this in her history book. Maybe we have a case of something being repeated often enough that it becomes the truth, sort of. Cheers Jim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3291. . . . . . . . . . . . Circle and triangle on poker chips in "The Sting" From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 10:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there, I have seen these on eBay several times. The circle and triangle are certainly not unique. Geometrically, they fit well and one can find them in many places. I saw the symbol on a gas station fill cover the other day. And the state where I live actually uses it for the Alcoholic Beverage Commission. So when you go to a State Liquor Store, you see the AA logo. However I am not sure of the exact reason or origin for the appearance on poker chips. George Cleveland Jari Kokkinen wrote: Hi everyone! must tell you about an incident that relates to poker chips. About a year ago I saw the film "Sting" and in it the players in a poker game used chips that had the symbols of AA - the circle inside the triangle on their reverse side. I wonder if anybody would have any comments clarifying that coincidence or would just have noticed the same thing? In Sobriety, Jari - an AA from Finland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3292. . . . . . . . . . . . Chapter 10: Bill or Hank? From: Jeffrey Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2006 4:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages from Jeffrey Johnson, Rick Tompkins, rriley9945, Arthur Sheehan, John Lee, and Edgar C. ______________________________ FROM: Jeffrey Johnson (jeffrey_h_johnson at yahoo.com) While not wanting to sound overly repetitive relative to statements made by other posters, it appears to me that there is a very subtle yet critical issue which is being overwhelmed with strong rhetoric and exaggerated counter claims regarding the ‘validity' of differing research methodologies. As the antagonists in this ‘argument' become more entrenched in their varying postulations, the key historical facts are becoming obscured, and to some degree ignored. First and foremost, as a long time member of this group, it is my OPINION that one of the critical customs of this group is being ignored by certain participants in this debate - in absence of concrete, IRREFUTABLE facts, we can agree to disagree. Clearly, neither ‘side' in this discussion has produced any irrefutable "articles of fact" which definitively settle this controversy. The use of ‘text comparison' is no more (or less) valid than citing one source (Pass It On), since neither methodology / source fully or with any level of reliable accuracy ends the debate. In my way of thinking there is ample evidence to support a middle ‘ground' position on this topic. Bill Wilson stated in a talk he delivered in 1954 in Fort Worth, TX that he was the "author..." of the Big Book. However, in this same talk - and in support of Arthur's previous statements - Bill goes on to provide a much more detailed account of how the Big Book was written. "So, the preparation started and some more chapters were done and we went into AA in New York with these chapters in the rough. It wasn't like chicken-in-the-rough; the boys didn't eat those chapters up at all. I suddenly discovered that I was in this terrific whirlpool of arguments. I was just the umpire...So, we fought, bled and died our way through one chapter after another. We sent them out to Akron and they were peddled around and there were terrific hassles about what should go into this book and what should not." Therefore, given Bill's comments, the claims made by each side regarding some type of definitive evidence that Hank did or did not ‘author' Chapter 10 are unsubstantiated by any relevant fact. While not wanting to sound overly pedantic, another key issue appears to be the definition of ‘authorship', especially as Bill Wilson would have understood it. Inasmuch as the term author is used synonymously with writer today, Bill may have understood ‘author' to have a different connotation; when used as a verb, Bill may have understood the following connotation: To assume responsibility for the content of a published text. Moreover, from the reflections Ruth Hock wrote in 1959 (at Bill's request), there is some support for the postulation that Bill may have understood the connotation of authorship as previously defined. "So far as I know there was never any doubt that you were the one to write it, Bill, and I know that you spent endless hours discussing its general form with everyone who would listen or offer an idea - especially with Doc Smith , Fitz and Hank. As soon as you began to feel you had at least a majority agreement you began to arrive at the office with those yellow scratch pad sheets I came to know so well. All you generally had on those yellow sheets were a few notes to guide you on a whole chapter! My understanding was that those notes were the result of long thought on your part after hours of discussion pro and con with everyone who might be interested." (Ruth Hock's Recollections, Nov. 10, 1959, p. 4) Indeed, it seems to stretch credibility to the extreme, given Bill and Ruth's VERY definitive statements, to state unequivocally that Hank had no part in writing Chapter 10, nor would it be supportable to say he was the primary writer either. All available and historically accurate evidence indicates that Bill was responsible for the overall content and context of the Big Book, but that numerous individuals influenced different sections and / or information which was included (and excluded) from the book. The a priori result, based on all relevant facts, is that Bill developed a general outline of each chapter then dictated the actual wording to Ruth. Then a VERY lengthy review process occurred wherein numerous individuals provided critical feedback, which at times resulted in material alterations to Bill's original intent and wording. Clearly Hank was involved in, and was a PRIMARY source of feedback regarding the development of the entire book, not just chapter 10. Given Hank's physical proximity to Bill during this period - they were confined to a very small workspace while Ruth was taking dictation - an intuitively appealing conclusion is that Hank had substantial influence on Chapter 10 as a result of his professional background and experience. In summary, I conclude that all relevant historical evidence supports the conclusion that Bill was the primary ‘author' of the Big Book. However, to conclude from this evidence that Hank was NOT influential in the development of the ideas and / or wording included in Chapter 10 by stating that "The claim that Hank Parkhurst authored Chapter 10 of the Big Book is an AA myth. The myth was initiated by the boastings of Hank, and perpetuated by the anti-Bill Wilson faction of AA" is nothing more than speculation and personal opinion. Ample evidence indicates that many key individuals, including Dr. Bob, Hank and Fizthugh Mayo had substantial influence on the content and information included in the book. However, barring new evidence, it CANNOT be stated irrefutable whether or not Hank was the PRIMARY source / WRITER for the ideas and information included in Chapter 10. Yours in service, Jeff J ______________________________ FROM: "ricktompkins" (ricktompkins at comcast.net) That settles it! Now I need to read the Advisory Actions booklet again to see self-protection in action. Intellectual property-type lawsuits went on in that decade, too, so why shouldn't the Conference vote that the Text section be completely attributed to Bill? Off the records, Bill would honestly defer to others as literary sources. (BTW, sorry about the top-posting here, group...) Thank you for your post, Mitch, your satire makes us take our own stock as AA historians. From what I've come to understand, Parkhurst created the outline for the Big Book, brought the editors on board, fine-tuned a great deal of the text, and was an integral part of the NYC+Akron teams that roundtabled the final text that was published in February 1939. "The Unbeliever" reads like scenes in the movie "The Lost Weekend" and could have been Hank's last foray into creative writing. If Wilson said Parkhurst wrote "To Employers" let's take him at his word! Parkhurst was once an employer's Administrator, remember... I truly believe that Wilson did not write our Twelve Steps, he just wrote them down after a spell of astounding serendipity: a mix of Oxford Grouper principles, Dale Carnegie courses, and the fledgling Alcoholic Squads' attempt to close every loophole that a conniving drunk could try to sneak through. The collective vision of our pioneers found a great deal of its conduit with Bill's activity of writing it all down. To me, that vision, expanded and separated from Oxford Movement principles, set about to close all loopholes that brought recovery to drunks in their disease. The principles of AA are repeated innumerable times and many different ways throughout our Big Book, just think of the simple example 'wrongs, defects of character, shortcomings.' Same idea, different sentences. Our AA authorship appears to be subject to myth until proven otherwise, while our AA principles are just as much derivative. Bill was never a Pulitzer-Prize-grade writer, and many editors, right down to the linotype operator at Cornwall Press, are facts of our AA history. Tom Powers is no longer alive to reaffirm the fact that Bill needed much assistance in his writing, and Nell Wing also attested to that reality. When speaking of writing the history of my home Area 20, I would always defer to the panels who reviewed my effort and I still share that when it came together, the facts drove it to the point where it just about wrote itself! To this day, some believe it was written by a committee and that perspective continues to sit well with me. Love and serenity to all here, Rick, Illinois ______________________________ FROM: "ArtSheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) An interesting bit of information from Bill W is in "AA Comes of Age" (pgs 165-166). Bill writes: "... But as the book-naming discussion went on, I began to have certain doubts and temptations. From the start the title "The Way Out" was popular. If we gave the book this name, then I could add my signature, 'By Bill W.'! After all why shouldn't an author sign his book? I began to forget that this was everybody's book and that I had been mostly the umpire of the discussions that had created it ..." Also, portions of "To Employers" are written in the style of first person narrative and in the context of the narrator being an employer. The profile narrated does fit Hank but not Bill. Cheers Arthur ______________________________ FROM: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) Response to James Blair Jim, Good point about the "writing style" pretext used by Bill. I'd forgotten that exchange with Lois. As you know, the Alanon preamble tracks the language of "To Wives". How about the royalties issue, also? If Hank had actually written part of the Big Book, he would have been legally entitled to royalties, irrespective of Hank tendering his Works Publishing shares to Bill for a redundant $200 payment. Hank didn't pursue his royalties claim because it was pure fiction. Bill knew that. Hank even knew it, in his sober moments. Bill worked out a deal with the Trustees, whereby Bill would get royalty payments for the Big Book. Bob wasn't an author of the Big Book but Bill still tried to get royalty payments for Bob. If Hank's claim to authorship had had the slightest validity, Hank would have been awarded royalties for the Big Book. That's why overall payments to Bill became such a hot issue in Cleveland, where Bill was confronted with Clarence's charges that Bill was making a fortune on AA. Hank had gone crying the blues to Clarence about the Big Book royalties. If Hank had kept his cool, he would have been awarded Big Book royalties. Bill was always deferential to Hank, who had been Bill's business partner and first successful pigeon in NYC. Ruth Hock wrote a long 1955 letter to Bill Wilson, detailing the writing of the Big Book. Nowhere in that long letter does Ruth suggest that Hank wrote Chapter 10 of the Big Book. You're absolutely correct. These AA fables keep getting repeated for decades, and eventually assume the truth. Nobody bothers to check the original documents, such as the AMA Convention Program, Spencer's Principles of Biology, or James' Varieties of Religious Experience. If anyone would take the time to read "The Unbeliever", they would be convinced that Hank didn't concurrently write "To Employers". Hank couldn't write a lucid paragraph about alcoholism. john lee pittsburgh ______________________________ FROM: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com) Response to James Blair Maybe we have a case of something being repeated often enough that it becomes the truth, sort of. Cheers Jim - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Well said, Jim. That's the reason why we all know what space aliens look like. I even have salt and pepper shakers in their likeness. As to why Bill W wrote To Wives, instead of letting Lois do it as she asked, it's hard to imagine her using the patronizing, forgiving tone of the chapter, especially such sentences as, "The first principle of success is that you should never be angry..." and "Patience and good temper are most necessary.". I think you can make a case for it being an oblique way for Bill to say to Lois, "Get off my case, Lois..." Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla ______________________________ FROM: rriley9945@aol.com (rriley9945 at aol.com) If I remember correctly....didn't some sort of conference approval prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the world was flat? Er--The world isn't flat????? ______________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3293. . . . . . . . . . . . Poker chips and AA symbols From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2006 6:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages from Doug B., Kimball, and M. Eaton ______________________________ FROM: "Doug B." (dougb at aahistory.com) Jari, I have lots of the circle/triangle chips that you mention. They are from about 1910 per a poker chip dealer I spoke to. The reason there are so many symbols and styles of the old clay chips is because there are were so many establishments that wanted chips that could be their own style and denomination. Todays poker chip manufacturing can use any graphic they want to so there are even more variations available and they don't have to use the antiquated symbols anymore. Doug B. ______________________________ From: "Kimball" (rowek at softcom.net) I know that poker chip were used as AA tokens, or at least in Germany. When I was there they had a chip system based on the plain poker chip (no circle, no triangle): BEGINNER - WHITE The first poker chip was called the surrender chip. It was white and was given to all new comers. The new comer was told that "White is the International color for SURRENDER. Now would be a good time to surrender yourself and place your care in the hands of God. However, should you return to drinking it may also represent the color of the sheet that will place over your cold dead body." Often we had to order rolls of "just white" poker chips. ONE MONTH - RED The second chip was red and given at the one month period. People with one month were told that "Red is the international color for STOP. Now would be a good time to stop your stinking thinking, stop your old behaviors, stop playing with your old friends. However, should you return to drinking, then the color red could represent the color of your front windshield as you're ejected from the car." THREE MONTHS - GREEN The third chip was green and given at the three month period (we had no two month chip). People with three months were told that "Green is the international color for GO. Now would be a good time for you to go to more meetings, go read your Big Book, go and talk to a sponsor, or go and help another. However, should you return to drinking, then the color green could represent the color of your liver during autopsy." SIX MONTHS - BLUE The fourth chip was blue and given at the six month period. People with six months were told that "Blue is the international color for PEACE. By now, you've been off the sauce long enough for the 'fog' to lift, the steps have begun to change you, and you may be at last experiencing moments of serenity. However, should you return to drinking the color blue could represent the emotions felt by family and loved ones who knew that behind the booze was a fine human being." NINE MONTHS - YELLOW The fifth and the last poker chip was yellow and was given at nine months of sobriety. People with nine months were told that "Yellow is the international color for CAUTION. By now you know a lot about AA and staying sober. In someways, you may actually know enough to be dangerous. This is a time to exercise extreme caution in what you do and think, stay close to the fellowship and pray. However, should you return to drinking, then the color yellow could represent the color of your jaundiced eyes the mortician preps you for viewing." ______________________________ FROM: "M.Eaton" (meaton1287 at rogers.com) I was watching a tv episode one day and it was set in a classroom. On the blackboard in the background was "Homework - Chapter 5 - How It Works". It is always possible that one of our legion of members was sending a "hello" message. Just a theory - Murray Eaton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3294. . . . . . . . . . . . Chapter 10: Bill or Hank? Another clue... From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2006 2:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA History Lovers: I took another look at the December 1938 Big Book "Prospectus" developed by Hank and Bill. The first part sounds like Bill Wilson, the second half, Hank P. The non-alcoholic Trustees weren't keen on financing a basic text, reasoning that Hank and Bill had no experience in publishing. Tell a drunk he can't do something, and what happens? Hank and Bill made of tour of publishing houses, to get background and troll for an advance. Hank and Bill were both autodidacts [self-taught]. They were innovative guys. A third of the Works Publishing stock was given to Bill as author and a third to Hank as business manager. Hank tried to hawk the remaining third at meetings, with very limited success. Ruth apparently got shares, in lieu of some of her wages. It should not be surprising that the AA members were unenthusiastic about buying stock in a book that hadn't been written. Many of these same members had already been ruined financially by the stock market collapse of 1929. There is an important clue about Chapter 10's authorship in the December 1938 Prospectus. The last line of the page entitled "The Present Program" indicates that "ten chapters [of One Hundred Men] have now been written." The missing chapter was either Chapter 5 or Chapter 10. Everyone agrees that Chapters 1 and 2 were the first ones finished, and the drafts of those chapters were used to try to coax an advance from publishers. Bill's talks indicate that the last Chapter he finished was Chapter 5, How It Works. The Prospectus does not indicate the name or subject matter of the missing chapter. Can anyone in this forum identify the month Bill wrote up the 12 steps? If Bill's quick writeup of the 12 steps on his bed occurred prior to December 1938, then it is probable that Chapter 10 was the missing chapter. love+tolerance john lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3295. . . . . . . . . . . . Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: George Cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2006 9:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there, I am blessed with a great collection of recordings of Bill Wilson. Listening to the spoken words of Bill and other long-timers (in some cases before they were long-timers) is a wonderful resource. Thanks to our technology these days, we can hear these people breathing in our ears. And the message of 50 years ago is the same as today. I have been wandering through Google and all the links that Glenn and others have provided. Can someone direct me to where I might find downloads of Lois' talks? Are there recordings of Anne Smith? Thanks for any help you can provide. George Cleveland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3296. . . . . . . . . . . . Working the Steps/Program From: Dean C . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2006 2:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've searched the text in the front part of the book ("Alcoholics Anonymous") and don't find the phrasing "working the Steps" or "work the Steps" or "work the program" anywhere. What I find is "the steps we took," "practice these principles," "accept and practice spiritual principles," "apply spiritual principles," "spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred of them had followed," "follow our program," "following the program ," "give themselves to this simple program," "let up on the spiritual program of action," "a practical program of action," "go through with the Twelve Steps of the program of recovery," "Let the alcoholic continue his program," "he may go for the program at once," "try our program," "falling down on his spiritual program," "the wife who adopts a sane spiritual program, making a better practical use of it," and so on. The word "work" is used to convey a result, as in "It worked!" Or, it's an action based on what we've learned, as in "if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others. Or "a design for living that works in rough going." Or "we try to put spiritual principles to work in every department of our lives." (And so on.) To me, "working the Steps" has a connotation far different from what's in the book. It sounds difficut, unattractive, for one thing. And "work the program" sounds, to me, well, conniving, as in "work the system," or like what a comedian or salesperson or politician might do: "work the crowd," "work the room." Perhaps in other geographical areas, "work the Steps" isn't heard. It's pretty much all that is heard here. Does anyone know when these "work" phrases crept into our AA vocabulary? (Or where it appears in Conference-approved literature?) Thanks! -- Dean Collins Monterey Peninsula, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3297. . . . . . . . . . . . Author of "It Might Have Been Worse" From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2006 7:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We are working thru all the stories in our bb and step weekly meeting. The West Baltimore AA site has been most helpful in providing information about the authors, but not all of them. Next week, we read It Might Have Been Worse. West Baltimore gives us Chet Rude as the author, but little more beyond what is in the story. Anyone have more information I can bring to the meeting? Or another source for the authors of those stories? Thanks in advance Edgar C, Sarasota, FL IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3298. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2006 8:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Cindy Miller, Robert Stonebraker, Joe Adams, and K D Dew ______________________________ FROM: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Greetings! In answer to your question: I don't know if there are any recordings of Anne Smith--but I do have at least one recording ("Classic Talks"-Dicobe Tapes) of Lois in my vast Al-Anon collection! ;-) -cm ______________________________ FROM: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) George, The Akron Intergroup offers an album with five historical CDs, one of these is titled: "A Message To Bill And Lois." At this point Ann Smith, Dr. Bob, Smitty and his wife are making a recording to be delivered to Bill and Lois Wilson on a then new fangled recording device. Each of them speak only a few sentences but it is a charming recording. Also, on this CD is two of Dr. Bob's talks: (1) at Detroit in 1948 and (2) at Cleveland in 1950. Write to: Akron AA Audio Archives 775 North Main Street Akron, OH 44310 Email www.akronaa.org/archives Bob S. ______________________________ FROM: Joe Adams (sober_in_nc at yahoo.com) I, too, love to hear the voice that gave use the words, and I download many many many free files in MP3 format from http://www.xa-speakers.org, including historic Bill, Bob, Lois and other key speakers. Another good library to hear things online in real-audio format from http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm. I am not aware of any recordings by Anne ... and will be watching the list to see if anyone has better information. ______________________________ FROM: "K D Dew" (kddew at bardstowncable.net) I know of one free recording try this link: http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm Down the page about 3/4 of the way there is a link to "Lois W." it is Lois Wilson. Here's another link: http://amottapes.com/ but they charge Kevin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3299. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Working the Steps/Program From: emily baker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2006 7:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Emily Baker, Lynne, Kimball, Jaime Maliachi, Jon Markle, John Lee, Anders, and K D Dew ______________________________ From: "emily baker" (EBAKER at bak.rr.com) Or, Participate in the discipline of the steps. ______________________________ From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com (Gotogo2002L at aol.com) faith without works.........is dead? It is an action word........how does one improve his spiritual life, without thoroughly following the steps as laid out in the big book. half measures avail us nothing...................... LOL Lynne ______________________________ From: "Kimball" (rowek at softcom.net) LMAO took practice accept apply action follow following give themselves go through with go for try falling down adopts practical use If you can't see work here, you're not looking! ______________________________ From: "Jaime F. Maliachi P." (jmaliachi at megatopexercise.com) Dear Dean: good day and 24 hours of sobriety to you. My name is Jim Maliachi, and I am alcoholic anonymous since 12 years. You are right in one sense about your point of view. But I remember some expressions of Dr. Bob and good Veterans, that book include "if your man drink, he help you to show how do not work the program, if he does not drink he help you too because he show you how it work..." May be in Akron area was the site where it start to be the phrases with "work". In Mexico City we used to say "practice" the program, and "work" the defects of character. BUT work the steps means (to me), to practice them. There are not difference between those w ords, at least, it just is important one thing: How I change my way to be, to think and to live. Make it simple. Thanks a lot for your tolerance. Jimbo. Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote. servidor y amigo. ______________________________ From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) I realize that in some areas, the word "work" has some awful and negative connotations. I think that's just a matter of attitude and not necessarily scientific . . . And that aversion appears to me to come directly out of treatment clinics where in groups, the word "work" is often suppressed and substituted with "suggestions", or similar. My personal opinion (not fact) is, that's a wimpy excuse for getting someone else to do the work for the alcoholic. But, that's just my personal opinion and not based on any sort of fact, except my own experience! My sponsor told it to me this way, "Jon, if you work it, it's yours, you own it. If I work it, it's mine and I'll take it with me when I go." Somehow that made sense to me . . . So, I "work it"! LOL The one phrase that immediately comes to my mind is page 88, (Third Ed), "It works--it really does. We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined. But this is not all. There is action and more action. 'Faith without works is dead.' The next chapter is entirely devoted to Step Twelve." I'm not sure this is what you are looking for, though. But, it seems clear to me, at least, that "working" is a semantic expression of the process that involves, learning, practicing and putting to use the skills necessary to enable the sufferer to have the desire to drink permanently removed, become not only sober, to recover, but also to remain sober, recovered and usefully whole. But, that's just my take on it . . . Jon Markle Raleigh ______________________________ From: "johnlawlee" (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) Dean: We hear "working the program" constantly in Pittsburgh. It's street slang, oily politician rhetoric. Similar to "working the crowd" or "working the room". Very manipulative language. The only place I've seen "working the steps" in the basic literature is ONE reference in 12and12, near the beginning of the chapter on step 10. 12and12 basically says that as we worked the first nine steps, we now begin to LIVE them. I've long believed that the better view is that the steps "work" us, they transform us, irrespective of our original motives. The 10th step promises in the Big Book seem to bear that out ["it happens automatically..."]. john lee ______________________________ From: anders (serenityodaat at yahoo.se) Hiya Dean! I did a very quick and rough word count of the basic text (first eleven chapters and doc's opinion) and found some 60 references. At least 75% of them was in the term "action" or "labour", simillair to the examples below: "Particularly was it imperative to work with others as he had worked with me. Faith without works was dead, he said" - p. 24 "...He is the Principal, we are His agent..." "...We had a new Employer. Being all powerful, He provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and performed His work well..." - p.75 "But this is not all. There is action and more action. 'Faith without works is dead.' The next chapter is entirely devoted to step twelve." - p. 100 "WORKING WITH OTHERS PRACTICAL experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail." - p. 101 ______________________________ From: "K D Dew" (kddew at bardstowncable.net) I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert, of course, but it was explained to me that the term "working the steps" comes from the phrase in the 9th step promises..."they will always come true if we work for them." http://www.nokama.com/bigbook/ The above link is to a searchable website of the big book. There are 101 references to the word "work." One might derive "working the steps" from some of the sentences in the BB in which the word work is used. Kevin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3300. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant April Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2006 1:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII April April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks and tell them of obsession and allergy. April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best Friend" by Jack Alexander. April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest desire to stop drinking". April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic. April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC. April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big Book. April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used to open AA meetings in Texas. April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died. April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died. April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida. April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill W's "spiritual sponsor." April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack Alexander. April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the office Bill and Hank P shared. April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938) April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford. April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no- hitter in baseball history since 1909. April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the one millionth copy of the Big Book. April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was formed. First 'mail order' group. April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was formed in Seattle. April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock to the Alcoholic Foundation. April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them. April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published. April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died. April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show. April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held. April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation was broadcast on ABC TV. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3301. . . . . . . . . . . . Resentment quote In Big Book Story From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2006 8:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Friends: I would like to know the exact source of a wonderful quotation on dealing with resentment that appears in "Freedom From Bondage," a personal story in the Big Book. The personal story was first used in the 2nd edition, published in 1955, and has been retained in the 3rd and 2nd editions, which indicates that the editors felt it was of superior quality. Here's the quotation, which can be found on p. 552 of the 4th (latest) edition. The author said she found it in a magazine article and that it was about getting rid of resentment. It was by a prominent clergyman He said, in effect: If you have a resentment you want to be free of, if you will pray for the person or the thing that you resent, you will be free. If you will ask in prayer for everything you want for yourself to be given to them, you will be free. Ask for their health, their prosperity, their happiness, and you will be free. Even when you don't really want it for them and your prayers are only words and you don't mean it, go ahead and do it anyway. Do it every day for two weeks, and you will find you have come to mean it and to want it for them, and you will realize that where you used to feel bitterness and resentment and hatred, you now feel compassionate understanding and love." The author went on to say it worked for her then and worked for her since and worked every time she was willing to work it. Who was the prominent clergyman who authored this quotation? My guess is that it was Norman Vincent Peale, who became very prominent with his 1952 publication of that blockbuster, "The Power of Positive Thinking." He was a good friend of AA and even devoted a large part of one chapter in that book to AA. But does anyone know where the above quotation appeared? It had to be before 1955, because that's when it first appeared in the Big Book. It was in a magazine with the word "resentment" on the cover, as this is what caught the Big Book writer's attention. It might have been in Guideposts magazine and slightly different from the quotation shown above, as the author used "in effect" in presenting it. It's a great quotation, by the way, and ought to be put on a card and passed around at meetings, especially when resentment is the topic. Come to think of it, I think I'll do that for my group her in Toledo and any of the History Lovers could easily download it from this message and circulate it in their own groups. LOL to All, Mel Barger, Toledo, Ohio ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3302. . . . . . . . . . . . Jack H. (sob. 1958) passed away... From: Mike Custer . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/3/2006 7:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sad to report that Jack Holt passed away. Jack's sobriety date was March 6, 1958. 48 years of sobriety. There is a memorial site with information about his service here IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3303. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: Phillip Waters . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2006 8:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have several talks by Lois in MP3 format. Please feel free to contact me off list. Phillip Waters ____________________________________ My e-mail address is: (muddy at bham.rr.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3304. . . . . . . . . . . . Wombley''s Clapboard Factory? From: Joe Adams . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/3/2006 12:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can ANYONE give me some background of the big explosion of Wombley's Clapboard Factory? It's April and my home group - and many of the groups around here - will be studying Tradition 4 again. Last year I went to six meetings in a row that were all the same and no one has any idea of the significance of the reference. Not that it is a major point of recovery, but it IS in the books and we DO get that question every single time. Anybody? (and smile, it's not all that grim) ______________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn Chesnut) The "day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory" is referred to in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions pp. 147-149. (This is also where we find Rule No. 62, "Don't take yourself too damn seriously.") We have a couple of past messages which talked about this, which I give immediately below (Messages 2324 and 1610). Does anyone in the AAHistoryLovers have any additional information? ______________________________ Message 2324 from "Mark Morse" (markm at eauclaire.lib.wi.us) Wombley's clapboard factory Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an Edgar Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vermont, before the turn of the century. The Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as that of the Ward family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through Chittenden county. ______________________________ Message 1610 from Jim Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wilson House in East Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can still be seen. Jim ______________________________ The full story, pp. 147-149 from the chapter in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions on the Fourth Tradition ("Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole"). That section says: Every group had the right to be wrong. When A.A. was still young, lots of eager groups were forming. In a town we'll call Middleton, a real crackerjack had started up. The townspeople were as hot as firecrackers about it. Stargazing, the elders dreamed of innovations. They figured the town needed a great big alcoholic center, a kind of pilot plant A.A. groups could duplicate everywhere. Beginning on the ground floor there would be a club; in the second story they would sober up drunks and hand them currency for the back debts; the third deck would house and educational project - quite controversial, of course. In imagination the gleaming center was to go up several stories more, but three would do for a start. This would all take a lot of money - other people's money. Believe it or not, wealthy townsfolk bought the idea. There were, though, a few conservative dissenters among the alcoholics. They wrote the Foundation*, A.A.'s headquarters in New York, wanting to know about this sort of streamlining. They understood that the elders, just to nail things down good, were about to apply to the Foundation for a charter. These few were disturbed and skeptical. [*In 1954, the name of the Alcoholic Foundation, Inc., was changed to the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc., and the Foundation office is now the General Service Office.] Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a super-promoter. By his eloquence he allayed all fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it could issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed an A.A. group with medication and education had come to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things safer, the promoter organized three corporations and became president of them all. Freshly painted, the new center shone. The warmth of it all spread through the town. Soon things began to hum. to insure foolproof, continuous operation, sixty-one rules and regulations were adopted. But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening. Confusion replaced serenity. It was found that some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if they were alcoholics. The personality defects of others could be cured maybe with a loan. Some were club-minded, but it was just a question of taking care of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming applicants would go for all three floors. Some would start at the top and come through to the bottom, becoming club members; others started in the club, pitched a binge, were hospitalized, then graduated to education on the third floor. It was a beehive of activity, all right, but unlike a beehive, it was confusion compounded. An A.A. group, as such, simply couldn't handle this sort of project. All too late that was discovered. Then came the inevitable explosion - something like that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory. A chill chokedamp of fear and frustration fell over the group. When that lifted, a wonderful thing had happened. The head promoter wrote the Foundation office. He said he wished he'd paid attention to A.A. experience. Then he did something else that was to become an A.A. classic. It all went on a little card about golf-score size. The cover read: "Middleton Group #1. Rule #62." Once the card was unfolded, a single pungent sentence leaped to the eye: "Don't take yourself too damn seriously." Thus it was that under Tradition Four an A.A. group had exercised its right to be wrong. ______________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3305. . . . . . . . . . . . V. C. Kitchen and the Oxford Group From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2006 5:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been doing research on one of the important Oxford Group books, V. C. Kitchen's "I Was a Pagan," for a book which I am writing. Other than what Kitchen says about himself in his book, I have so far been able to find out relatively little about his life. Some of it is a bit frustrating. For example, although I have been able to discover his date of birth (1891), his date of death is unaccountably absent from the normal librarians' reference sources. Using Google to search the internet has shown that Dick B. and myself are the only two people who seem to have done much research on V. C. Kitchen, unless I am possibly missing something by inadvertence. The standard library reference sources at the Indiana University library (like the "Dictionary of National Biography" and so on) make no mention of Kitchen anywhere. What I have done below is to give all of the information which I have in fact been able to find, written up in the form in which I plan to use it in the book. If any members of the AAHistoryLovers can provide me with any additional information about V. C. Kitchen's life, I would greatly appreciate it. Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana ______________________________ In 1934, Victor Constant Kitchen published a book called "I Was a Pagan," [1] describing his discovery of the Oxford Group and the way it had changed his life. This is a short but very useful work for understanding the Oxford Group movement and the origins of many of the practices found in Alcoholics Anonymous. One nevertheless has to actually read Kitchen's little book. Attempting to summarize the connections between the Oxford Group and A.A. by giving short lists of tenets and principles does not do adequate justice to the linkage. Anyone however who has a first hand acquaintance with A.A., who then reads through "I Was a Pagan," will find page after page where it sounds in uncanny fashion almost like a description of Alcoholics Anonymous in operation written by a long-time A.A. member. The Oxford Group was not the same as A.A., but we can see the connection between the two movements in the style and the feeling, just as much as in some of the ideas which A.A. borrowed from the parent group. V. C. Kitchen was a New York advertising man, with an office at 42nd Street and Fifth Avenue. He had a great interest in the Calvary Rescue Mission for down-and-outers at 246 East 23rd Street near Second Avenue, an operation which was supported by Calvary Episcopal Church and run by Oxford Group members. Calvary Episcopal Church itself was located several blocks away on Fourth Avenue (now Park Avenue South) at 21st Street. The rector, Father Samuel Shoemaker, had constructed an eight-story parish house called Calvary House next door to the church in 1928. Shoemaker was a devoted follower of Frank Buchman, the founder of the Oxford Group. Under Shoemaker's leadership, Calvary House became the American headquarters of the movement. Kitchen, with his writing skills, wrote articles for the Rev. Shoemaker's publication, the "Calvary Evangel." [2] In November 1934, Ebby Thacher came to visit Bill Wilson in his kitchen in the second floor apartment at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn, [3] and told him about the Oxford Group and its teachings. As a result Bill visited Calvary Rescue Mission, began learning more about the Oxford Group, and eventually (after his vision of the divine light in Towns Hospital) began attending the Oxford Group meetings at Calvary House, where he got to know Father Shoemaker himself. [4] What makes Kitchen's book so important for A.A. history, is that the eye-witness account which he gives of the Oxford Group at work describes the kind of practices which existed in the New York city area at the exact time that Bill Wilson first came into contact with the movement. He and Bill W. were both members of the same Oxford Group businessman's group in New York City during the period around 1935-1936, and became good friends. [5] The two of them were close to the same age, so they could relate to one another easily: in 1934 -- which was the year that Ebby visited Bill in his apartment and told him about the Oxford Group, and the year that Kitchen's book "I Was a Pagan" was published -- Bill turned 39 years old and Kitchen was 43. [6] There was also a connection between Kitchen and Dr. Bob, although it was indirect. In 1933, wealthy rubber baron Harvey Firestone, Sr. (president of the Firestone Rubber and Tire Company) brought sixty Oxford Group members to Akron, Ohio, paying all their expenses, so that they could get a group started in that city. Kitchen was one of the members of that team, [7] which meant that he was one of the founders of the Oxford Group fellowship in that city. Dr. Bob's wife Anne was the one who persuaded the doctor to start attending these new Oxford Group meetings early in 1933, shortly after they were begun. Now it should be noted that Dr. Bob was not able to get sober just by joining the Oxford Group, but it created the link which allowed him to meet Bill W. two years later, in May, 1935. It also gave him enough knowledge of Oxford Group principles to allow him and Bill W. to start talking together productively from the very start, and creating the Alcoholics Anonymous movement by modifying and adapting those Oxford Group principles. [8] So Kitchen had connections of one sort or another with both of the founders of A.A., with Bill W. directly, but indirectly with Dr. Bob too. This is part of what makes Kitchen's book so important for understanding early A.A. ______________________________ NOTES: [1] Victor Constant Kitchen, "I Was a Pagan" (New York: Harper and Brothers, 1934). There is an edition available on the internet at www.stepstudy.org www dot stepstudy dot org). [2] From Dick B. (Kihei, Hawaii), based on his researches. Dick is the author of a number of books on A.A. and the Oxford Group, including Dick B., "The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous" (Seattle, Washington: Glen Abbey Books, 1992) and Dick B., "The Oxford Group and Alcoholics Anonymous" (Seattle, Washington: Glen Abbey Books, 1992). [3] The Big Book = "Alcoholics Anonymous," 4th edit. (New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, 2001 [1st edit. 1939]), pp. 8-13. "Pass It On: The Story of Bill Wilson and How the A.A. Message Reached the World" (New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, 1984), pp. 87, 98, 111-115. [4] "Pass It On" pp. 116-119 and 127. [5] From Dick B.'s researches. [6] Kitchen was born in 1891, according to the standard bibliographies used by American university libraries. Bill Wilson was born on November 26, 1895. [7] Dick B. (Kihei, Hawaii) was told this by Oxford Group members from the 1930's when he was interviewing them. [8] "Pass It On" pp. 53-60. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3306. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about Clyde Bertram "Freeman" From: Jean Cottel . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 12:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have come across a booklet called "Stand Tall Again," written under the pen name of "Freeman." It is signed in the front "Clyde Bertram, 'Freeman'". No date on it, it is a story of getting sober in AA. Information? Jean Cottel jcottel@earthlink.net (jcottel at earthlink.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3307. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital From: gbaa487 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 10:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I understand that Bill W.'s first three trips to Towns Hospital were paid for by his brother-in-law, Dr. Strong. Who paid for his fourth trip, in December 1934? Thanks, George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3308. . . . . . . . . . . . Use of Dash in First Step From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 10:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When discussing the First Step in meetings, a local pedant insists that Bill W. put the dash, or, as he says, line separator, there on purpose to signify that both phrases of the Step have equal importance. My problem with this is several-fold. Bill was not that accomplished a writer, at least at this point in his life, and if what he tells us of the origin of the steps in "Twelve Steps in Thirty Minutes" is true, I doubt if the intricacies of English grammar and writing were in the forefront of his mind when these were written down. His formal education in English would have been what he had in secondary school and perhaps the semester of college he spent at Norwich. I am a product of a New England prep school and they weren't teaching those distinctions fifty years ago. I also scanned about fifty contiguous pages of the Big Book counting dashes/hyphens/line separators and semi-colons. I chose semi-colons as one could pick them out without having to read the text. There was an equal amount of each, roughly thirty-five, or one each on every page-and-a-half. This indicates [not proves-indicates] that these dashes, etc., were put in randomly along with semi-colons and perhaps some other devices to avoid using the same thing over and over. Bill has said that he alternated words in several instances towards this same end. Another problem I have with the pedant's assertion is that I see no indication from the founders and those who helped write the Big Book that it was intended to be studied in this detail. I live in the Bible Belt and there is among some people a mind set that every word sprang off Bill W's pencil at the direct order of God Himself., but that's a different topic. I am discussing history here, not recovery. I am not arguing that the two parts of the First Step are not of equal importance but rather that the argument about the dash/line separator is invalid. I would also note that over the years I have not heard this assertion from anyone else nor have I read it in any A.A. book or on any of the many A.A. related sites out there on the internet. I suspect it came from a circuit speaker. I would just like some feedback from those better versed than I as to the substance of the assertion. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3309. . . . . . . . . . . . silkworth''s letter From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2006 1:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi history lovers, could you please tell us why this part of Dr. Silkworth's second letter was in the original manuscript of the Big Book, but taken out when the book went to the printers. "Then there are those who are never properly adjusted to life, who are the so-called neurotics. The prognosis of this type is unfavorable." Thank you for your help in this mattter. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3310. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe and Charlie tapes online From: K D Dew . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2006 5:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A while back I stumbled upon a link that had a series of 9 real audio recordings of Joe and Charlie and the big book study along with a word document transcription of that session. Unfortunately, I had a hard drive crash and I'm unable to locate the backup that I made. If anyone knows the link, please send it to me at my e-mail address: Kddew_md@bardstowncable.net (Kddew_md at bardstowncable.net) Kevin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3311. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: Mike Aycock . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2006 1:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a boxed set which includes Bill W. (AA), Dr. Bob (AA), and Lois W. (Al-anon). On this CD however Lois just has a few words to say. I do know that there are a few recordings by her. If you need more info on this you can probably check with James M. at: JamesTapes@aol.com (JamesTapes at aol.com). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3312. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 1:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of K D Dew Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 5:24 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Joe and Charlie tapes online A while back I stumbled upon a link that had a series of 9 real audio recordings of Joe and Charlie and the big book study along with a word document transcription of that session. Unfortunately, I had a hard drive crash and I'm unable to locate the backup that I made. If anyone knows the link, please send it to me at my e-mail address: Kddew_md@bardstowncable.net (Kddew_md at bardstowncable.net) Kevin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3313. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Billy-Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 12:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Joe and Charlie tapes promote the myth that early AA's had a higher success rate, and that by returning to the mythical "old way" of working the AA program, AA can reduce the relapse rate and get more people sober. The truth is the relapse rate and failure rate in early AA was extremely high. BiLL W. admits this in his memorial speech at Dr. Bob's funeral and Francis Hartigan points this out in his biography of Bill W. I don't dislike the Joe and Charlie tapes but I do dislike the fact that they continue to be on a crusade to return AA to a mythical time that never existed in the first place. Sincerely, Jim F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3314. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Jan L. Robinson . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 7:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a great Joe and Charlie site. Here is the address http://kischat.com/bigbook/joeandcharlie.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3315. . . . . . . . . . . . V. C. Kitchen''s obituary (Oxford Group author) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2006 4:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One of our AAHistoryLovers, reference librarian Charlie C., has come up with exactly the kind of information I was looking for: ___________________________________ Obituary in the New York Times, January 30, 1975, p. 37. KITCHEN -- Victor Constant, son of the late Dr. and Mrs. J. M. W. Kitchen of East Orange, N.J., born New York City, April 9, 1891, died at home in Cabool, Missouri, Jan. 29, 1975. Husband of Elsie Rodman Kitchen, father of Beverly K. Almond of Bloomfield, N.J., Myra K. Prindle, Redding, Conn., Hope K. Ayer, Cabool. Nine grandchildren and five great-grandchildren. Attended Carteret Academy, East Orange High School, Stevens Institute of Technology, Columbia School of Journalism. Advertising executive, Doyle, Kitchen and McCormick, N.Y.C. Since 1934, full time with Oxford Group and Moral Re-Armament. Author of the book, "I Was A Pagan." Gathering of gratitude at his home, Route 2, Cabool, Mo., 3 P.M., Saturday, Feb. 1. Eventual interment, Gilmantown, N.H. In lieu of flowers, family suggests remembrance to Up With People, 3103 No. Campbell Ave., Tucson, Ariz. 85719. ___________________________________ This information was in response to Message 3305, from Glenn C., on "V. C. Kitchen and the Oxford Group" "I have been doing research on one of the important Oxford Group books, V. C. Kitchen's "I Was a Pagan," for a book which I am writing .... If any members of the AAHistoryLovers can provide me with any additional information about V. C. Kitchen's life, I would greatly appreciate it." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3316. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 9:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Billy-Bob and Jim, The Joe and Charlie Big Book studies that I have attended in the past were nothing like you suggested in your response. They were keeping it very simple and didn't seem to be on any crusade except that of actually having you read the book for yourself. Then again, I haven't been to one in ten years..maybe their message has changed? Doug B. Riverside, CA (dougb at aahistory.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3317. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: serenityodaat . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2006 11:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hiya Jim! This is from the foreword to the second edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous": "While the internal difficulties of our adolescent period were being ironed out, public acceptance of A.A. grew by leaps and bounds. For this there were two principal reasons: the large number of recoveries, and reunited homes. These made their impressions everywhere. Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn’t want the program. But great numbers of these - about two out of three - began to return as time passed." - page xix and xx When I sum this text up I get a recovery rate of approx. 90%. And this is A.A. in general. The Cleveland area showed a 100% recovery rate for a long period of time. Kindest Regards from Sweden with Love! Anders B Recovered alcoholic by the Grace of God ______________________________ Note from the moderator: In this group (unlike an AA chat group, of which there are many) we're trying to keep away from just people giving their opinions on things, no matter how heartfelt their convictions. This message however centers on a question of fact. Anders has cited a quotation from the foreword to the Big Book, and that involves a matter of historical fact. One can also come up with a number of other statements from the early period saying things quite similar to this. The key question is, what does the above statement actually mean, factually? The crucial clause in the passage which Anders quoted is one which people often overlook: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried." Go back and read that quotation from the foreword to the Big Book, and notice that phrase. That quotation says that 50% of the people who "really tried" got sober. But how many does it write off as people who didn't "really try"? There is one place where Bill W. says that 3 or 4 out of every 5 people who came to their AA meetings, decided after just a few meetings that this program was not for them, and disappeared. If 80% of the people who came to a few meetings (4 out of 5) disappeared after a short period of time, because "they didn't really want to try," there were only 20% left after that point. If only 50% of these actually got sober, that was a success rate of only 10%, if we calculate these figures the way they are calculated in analyzing modern AA statistics. Arthur S. and Tom E. have been going through all the early data which they can find, and they have come to the conclusion that early AA almost certainly had a much better than 10% success rate. Bill Wilson was probably being overly pessimistic when he said that 3 or 4 out of every 5 people disappeared after a few meetings. But we have a large number of statements from the early period making it clear that they were also most definitely not achieving anything nearly approaching a 50% success rate, if we count all parts of the U.S. and Canada, and everybody who had some kind of brief contact with AA. How about modern AA in the U.S. and Canada? The best analysis of that data that I have seen is the one which was given in Message 2379, which I attack to the bottom of this posting. Just like in early AA, we have large numbers of people in the modern period who come to a few meetings, but then disappear. Nowadays, 53% of the people who come to a few AA meetings do not make it through to the end of their third month. But of those who do make it past the three month mark, 56% of those will be able to make it successfully through their first year. The main thing is to quit comparing apples and oranges. The early AA figures, as in the passage which Anders quotes, regularly make the claim that 50% of those who "really tried" ending up being able to stay sober the first time through the program. That is quite correct. By comparison, the modern AA figures show that 56% of those who start attending AA meetings and make it past their first three months -- these are the ones whom the old timers would say "really tried" -- end up making it successfully to the end of their first year. To my reckoning, that is fundamentally the same kind of basic success rate, both then and now, a roughly 50% success rate back then among those who "really tried," and a roughly 56% success rate now among those who "really tried." Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana ______________________________ Message 2379 From: ny-aa@att.net Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:56 am Subject: Success vs. Gloom-and-Doom ------------------------------- [MODERATOR'S SUMMARY OF THE DATA GIVEN BELOW: 56% of those who stay three months are still active in AA at the end of a year. That first year is the hardest: the retention rates dramatically improve for those who have earned their one-year chip. The current U.S. population (U.S. Census Bureau) is 296 million, with around 220 million over eighteen years of age. In the data given below, the NIAAA estimates that roughly 8% of the U.S. population over age 18 abuse alcohol (17.6 million out of 220 million), but that there are only 7.9 million true alcoholics over eighteen years of age in the U.S., which is 3.6% of the population over eighteen years of age. With roughly 1 million AA members, that means that around 12 to 13% of these genuine alcoholics (about one out of eight) is in AA at this point.] ------------------------------- FROM: There is a tendency of some observers to offer a pessimistic view of A.A. today. This becomes the basis for advocating return to the practices of some time in the past. Often, they back this up with a misreading of one particular graph in a summary of the 1977 through 1989 Triennial Surveys. "Percent of Those Coming to AA Within the First Year Who Have Remained the Indicated Number of Months." It graphed the "Month" and "Dist" (distribution) columns here. Note the "Dist" column adds up to 100. It is NOT a retention percentage. For every 100 people surveyed with under a year, 13% were in their 2nd month and 9% were in their 4th month. The "New" column I added is scaled to show retention. The "3mo" column tracks retention after the usual introductary period when, presumably, only "real alcoholics" (about half) will stay. Month Dist . New . 3mo 1 ... 19 ... 100 2 ... 13 .... 68 3 ... 10 .... 53 4 .... 9 .... 47 . 100<=== Over 3 months 5 .... 8 .... 42 .. 89 6 .... 7 .... 42 .. 83 7 .... 7 .... 36 .. 77 8 .... 6 .... 34 .. 72 9 .... 6 .... 32 .. 68 10 ... 6 .... 30 .. 64 11 ... 6 .... 28 .. 60 12 ... 5 .... 26 .. 56 The Dist(1)=19 does NOT mean that "81% dropped out in a month." Dist(3)=10 does NOT mean that "90% leave within three months." And Dist(12)=5 does NOT mean that "95 abandon active participation in AA inside of a year." What it does show is that 56% of those who stay three months are still active in A.A. at the end of a year. Other Survey results show substantially better retention rates after the first year. Here is a typical example of misinterpretation of the table. > "Those of us who have survived in A.A. for a > good many years know for a certainty the dire > failure statistics of today -- statistics reported > by A.A.'s own service structure: > 81% of new members drop out in a month; > 90% leave within three months; and > 95% abandon the active participation in AA inside > of a year." That's just not true. Another misreading of statistics is to forget that not everyone who shows up at an A.A. meeting is an alcoholic. And not everyone with "a drinking problem" is an alcoholic (yet) either. For example, in 2002 the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism said that there were 9.7 million "alcohol abusers" and 7.9 million "alcohol dependent people" over age eighteen. There are clear definitions for these two categories. Only the 7.9 million are what A.A. calls "real alcoholics." These NIAAA numbers are misquoted as: > "And in America, there are less than a million > AAs at any given time out of an estimated > eighteen million alcoholics in all." Eighteen million is the total of "real alcoholics" and "a certain type of hard drinker." Further, most alcoholics have never tried or even visited Alcoholics Anonymous and have never made any serious attempt at recovery through any other means. With that in mind, one million sober American AAs is rather impressive. It also shows the need to reach out and invite more alcoholics to try Alcoholics Anonymous. Let's hope the pessimistic message of gloom-and-doom doesn't scare away and discourage the rest of those who need help. ------------------------------- [ADDITIONAL NOTE BY MODERATOR: In early AA, they often said that 50% of those (as they put it) "who made a serious effort" in AA got sober the first time they tried. Careful reading of the early documents and interviews with old timers makes it clear that they were not counting those who came to a few meetings but then fizzled out when they gave their 50% success rate. When early groups gave their membership figures, they usually made a rough-and-ready but clear distinction between the numbers of those at their weekly meetings who were just coming to a few meetings at that point and the numbers of those who were much more committed members. So early success rates were not actually all that much different from the present success rate. AA is still extraordinarily effective today, just as it was in the old days, particularly when we remember that alcoholism has always been the third leading cause of death in the United States ever since the 1930's: a fifty percent remission rate for what is frequently a fatal disease is medically impressive by any standards.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3318. . . . . . . . . . . . The Exact Quote from Francis Hartigan''s Book In Regard To Early AA''s Success From: backtobasicsbillybob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2006 1:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "We have to wonder why both the Wilson's and the Smiths did not simply give up. Today the nations best treatment centers report success rates ranging from 25 percent to 50 percent. During Bill's stay in Akron, he and Bob calculated their success rate to be about 5 percent, and among the few who seemed to catch on, not all of them were able to maintain consistent sobriety. The first edition of AA's Big Book, published in 1939, contains the personal recovery stories of many of AA's earliest members. Some years later, Bill made notations in the first copy of the book to come off the press, indicating which of the individuals portrayed therein had stayed sober. A good 50 percent had not." Francis Hartigan, Bill W., Pages 91-92 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3319. . . . . . . . . . . . The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 From: backtobasicsbillybob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2006 2:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "You haven't any conception these days of how much failure we had. How you had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait. Yes, the discouragement's were very great but some did stay sober and some very tough ones at that." Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob's Memorial Speech, Nov. 1952, At The 24th Street Club in New York City, New York. To Thine Own Self Be True, Billy-Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3320. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Use of Dash in First Step From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 2:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages from Ernest Kurtz, James Blair, Tim T., Mackley, Robert Stonebraker, and mrjocisoo7 on the dash used as punctuation in the middle of the first step. ______________________________ From: Ernest Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) On Bill W's intentions in writing AA's First Step: Bill commented in several letters, usually to individuals inquiring about the distinction between "defects of character" and "shortcomings" in Steps Six and Seven, along the lines that he had no such ideas in mind as he wrote those Steps, but that he thought it wonderful that people found so much in them. My reading of some of the drafts of Bill's AAGV articles, later collected in *The Language of the Heart,* inclines me to suspect he would have said something similar about portions of the AA Big Book. ernie k. ______________________________ From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) What is historical about the proper use of English grammar? Bill may not of been up there with Einstein but he did have some command of the English language. "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol (end of thought) - (new thought) that our lives had become unmanaageable." We need to stick to reading the black stuff and leave the white stuff alone. Jim ______________________________ From: Tim T. (pvttimt at aol.com) Tim T., here, an alky. How interesting! My grand-sponsor Bob Anderson "ran" our meeting in which I got sober finally in 1978. At the time he had 25 years, having sobered up in Cleveland in 1953. His sponsor was an iceman named Ed S. who in turn sobered up on the Cleveland-Akron AA axis. Bob has been dead for 7-8 years now, having finished his aa career in southern California. My grand-sponsor taught us stuff that isn't exactly in the big book, but he claimed was the "original" way it was taught in the early days in northern Ohio. It included his description of the "dash in the First Step!" And he taught us just as you described it! Another bit of "original" lore he taught us was that the Second Step is found in the big book between the ABC's and the Third Step prayer. Right after the ABC's it says: "Being convinced, we were at Step Three, which is that we decided to turn our will and our life over to God as we understood Him. Just what do we mean by that, and just what do we do?" Bob taught us that this means that in order to be convinced, we must work Step Two, and that the discussion that follows is therefore Step Two. Then, just before the Third Step prayer, it says, "We were now at Step Three." Bob would say to us, "How can you NOW be at Step Three, if what went before wasn't Step Two?" And it kind of all made sense to us, how the preceding discussion about running the show, being the director, selfishness and self-centeredness, troubles of our own making, etc, etc, was largely a description of the insanity of Step Two. His point was that our thinking is still screwed up even when we are dry. Made sense to me. And it was very helpful to me in working through my early sobriety. I guess those of us around today will never really appreciate the apparent wide diversity of opinion and approaches taken in the early days. One also has to remember that there weren't very many at that time. I'd imagine that some millions of folks have come in, stayed, gone back out, whatever over the last 70-ish years. It makes this forum valuable in appreciating that wide range of opinions. Thanks for your subject. Tim. ______________________________ mackleyhome@aol.com (mackleyhome at aol.com) Tommy, I suggest that you check a high school English Text for that time period. You might well find that the ninth punctuation mark was the DASH. It's most common usage was to indicate "end of complete thought" DASH or -- "beginning of new and somehow related thought." It was on having this pointed out to me that I realized for the first time that my life was unmanageable because of my drinking, not the reverse. As to Bill's education, didn't he had two advanced degrees? And you use the word pedant as if it were a bad thing. Just thought you might be interested. Mackley Rayville LA. ______________________________ From: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212@insightbb.com) Dear Tommy, Your point is well taken on Bill's punctuation skills at but it is good to remember that other well educated (in writing) people had to do with the changing from the ‘final draft' to the first printing, first edition, Big Book, e.g.: Mar (?), The much changed book manuscript was turned over to Tom Uzzell. He was a friend of Hank P, an editor at Collier's and a member of the NYU faculty. The manuscript was variously estimated as 600 to 1,200 pages (including personal stories). Uzzell reduced it to approximately 400 pages. Most cuts came from the personal stories, which had also been edited by Jim S (The News Hawk) a journalist from Akron, OH. (AACOA 164, BW-FH 126, PIO 203) Silkworth and Dr Tiebout offered similar advice. (AACOA 167-168 NG 67-77) The dash: I have always thought the dash simply completes the sentence, e.g.: "She was very smart - she got straight ‘A's" Or powerless - unmanageable. This means to me that the fact my life may be unmanageable today has little to do with the fact that I drank alcoholically a long time ago. Thanks for the subject, Bob S, from Indiana ______________________________ From: mrjocisoo7@aol.com (mrjocisoo7 at aol.com) The detailed study of the big book allows us to really stay busy. But also help us target the very book that has helped millions of people. I am pro study in detail. It helps centers me. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3321. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question about Clyde Bertram "Freeman" From: John Pine . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 2:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I heard Clyde speak at a conference in Pennsylvania about six or seven years ago...I was most struck by his ability (need?) to recite "How it Works" from memory. He was then more than 50 years sober. He was also pitching his book, which didn't carry his real name due to the anonymity tradition. I believe he was a carpenter through most of his drinking, and became a certfied addiction counselor after he got sober. John On 4/10/06, Jean Cottel wrote: > I have come across a booklet called "Stand Tall > Again," written under the pen name of "Freeman." > It is signed in the front "Clyde Bertram, 'Freeman'". > No date on it, it is a story of getting sober in AA. > > Information? > > > Jean Cottel > jcottel@earthlink.net > (jcottel at earthlink.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3322. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital From: John S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 7:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As I read the literature (especially ‘The Doctor's Opinion') the first page of the first of the two letters on page xxv (4th ed) it states clearly: "In the course of his third treatment he acquired certain ideas concerning a possible means of recovery." It has always been my understanding that he only made 3 trips to Charlie Town's hospital. In ‘Bill's Story' on page 7 he describes what I believe to be his first trip to Town's when he says: "My brother-in-law is a physician, and through his kindness and that of my mother I was placed in a nationally-known hospital for the mental and physical rehabilitation of alcoholics." Further down on that same page he relates: "After a time I returned to the hospital." On page 8 he relates that: "on ‘Armistice Day' (November 11th) 1934 I was off again." Then finally on page 13 he states: "At the hospital I was separated from alcohol for the last time. Treatment seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium tremens." This would appear to this old drunk to be the ‘third and final' time he went to Town's hospital. Submitted in humility for your consideration, John S. ____________________________________ Original Message: I understand that Bill W.'s first three trips to Towns Hospital were paid for by his brother-in-law, Dr. Strong. Who paid for his fourth trip, in December 1934? Thanks, George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3323. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: Ken Ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2006 8:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 22:19:54 -0700 From: "Mike Aycock" Subject: Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? I thought that someone else would mention this. There is an organization in Minnesota that does an great amount of AA and Al-Anon taping that has several different recordings of Lois W. http://www.gstl.org/ Go to their site map and scroll down to Al-Anon history to start. (Gopher State Tape Library, established 1974). Ken R. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3324. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about "Freeman Carpenter" = Clyde B. From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 1:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is an interesting link I found: http://www.freemancarpenter.com/ Chris B. Raleigh, NC ______________________________ On 4/10/06, Jean Cottel wrote: > I have come across a booklet called "Stand Tall > Again," written under the pen name of "Freeman." > It is signed in the front "Clyde Bertram, 'Freeman'". > No date on it, it is a story of getting sober in AA. > > Information? > > Jean Cottel > jcottel@earthlink.net > (jcottel at earthlink.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3325. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Use of Dash in First Step From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 11:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To again cite the famous and eloquent John Wayne: "Hold on there pilgrims!" If we are going to delve into the mystical and esoteric connotations of punctuation marks then let's get those gol-darn punctuation marks straight by golly. [Citation from a web article by Peter K Sheerin] "When you need a dash, for whatever reason, you need a dash--not a hyphen. There are two kinds of dashes: the n-dash and the m-dash. The n-dash is called that because it is the same width as the letter "n". The m-dash is longer--the width of the letter "m". We use the n-dash for numerical ranges, as in "6-10 years." When we need a dash as a form of parenthetical punctuation in a sentence--as I have been using it rather freely already in this article--we use the m-dash. An "em" is a unit of measurement defined as the point size of the font -- 12 point type uses a 12 point "em." An "en" is one-half of an "em." Now after due consideration of the profound analyses and divinations of the information below, after factoring in such powerful hearsay sources as "my sponsor said" there is only one solid conclusion: Jim B is correct - much is being read that isn't written there. Bill W claims to have drafted the 12 Steps in 30 minutes (and with a sour stomach). Does anyone truly believe that the selection of a single punctuation was all that significant or profound? I absolutely love the way AA members can micro-parse a syllable and/or punctuation mark and conjure up (oh so seriously and profoundly) all kinds of conclusions that rest far more on imagination than information. But what a dull society we would have if folks didn't do it (rule #62 and grin, grin, wink, wink, nudge, nudge). Cheers Arthur PS Bill W was supposed to have been one incomplete class away from a night school law degree. PPS Can anyone divine the mystical significance of my use of a colon in the 1st paragraph? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3326. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox From: Matthugh Bennett . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 1:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was wondering if there was any documentation as to the early members being readers or listeners of Emmet Fox. I have been reading his writings for about a year and find the spirit of the message strong there. I had someone tell me that there was "AA History" where there was no Emmet and then "revised history" with Emmet. I'm more curious from a historical standpoint. Wether they read it or not has not kept it from helping me grow spiritually! ________________________________ From the moderator, Glenn C. -- Yes, Emmet Fox's book was widely read and greatly admired in early A.A., see for example: The Old-Time Akron Reading List: Books for A.A. Beginners (http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html) A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (THE AKRON MANUAL), published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early 1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, and handed out to alcoholics when they were admitted to the hospital for detoxing, gives a list at the end of ten recommended readings for newcomers to A.A., so that they might better understand the spiritual aspects of the program. "The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous": (1) Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book). (2) The Holy Bible (especially the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91). (3) The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. (4) The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee). (5) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. (6) The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). (7) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. (8) Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.). (9) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. (10) The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton. ________________________________ As you can see, Emmet Fox's book was number six on the early Akron AA recommended reading list. It is easy to obtain copies of this book. There is a new edition of Allen's and Drummond's books which Mel B. published in 2004 (see http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html). Allen's book in particular hits many of the same themes which appear in Emmet Fox. This early twentieth century approach to spirituality was called New Thought. Many early AA members were strongly influenced by New Thought in their interpretation of the AA program. The Unity Church of Peace is one group which still teaches a New Thought approach to spirituality. (This is NOT the same as "New Age," which means magic crystals and channeling and all that sort of thiing.) The Detroit Pamphlet (the Detroit version of the Table Leader's Guide, a widely used set of early A.A. beginners lessons) had a long passage from Emmet Fox at the end, called "Staying on the Beam." *** ________________________________ Can any members of the group give us other references to Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount in early AA literature? There was one weekly meeting in early AA in South Bend, Indiana, where I live, which read Emmet Fox's book during their meetings, and insisted that everybody in the AA group be thoroughly familiar with that book. ________________________________ *** STAYING ON THE BEAM, by Emmet Fox (http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html) Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam is produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on this beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, or get his bearings in any other way. As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more. Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some sense of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if outer things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off the beam you are in danger. You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should immediately get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, claiming His Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, and that the promises in the Bible are true today. If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will reach port in safety. Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3327. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 3:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The following is information that was also previously sent to Billy Bob in private and pleasant exchange of emails. I'd like to also submit it [slightly edited] for consideration. It could be reasonably stated that many [who show up at AA meetings] never really [give AA an opportunity] to begin with. That's why [over time] citations of the %50 + 25% = 75% rate by Bill W and others was qualified to only include "of those who really tried."... What is often missing from discussions of successes or failures is that thousands of prospects may show up at AA meetings but only a fraction will go on to decide to give AA's recovery program a try. [It is also reasonable to presume that if zero efforts are put in to AA then zero results will come out of it]. Those that do not decide to give AA a try cannot, and should not, be factored into the success rate calculations without grotesquely distorting it. It would be analogous to trying to measure the effectiveness of a medical procedure by including people who suffer from the medical problem but decide not to seek help from a doctor or a hospital. They at least have to try the medical procedure to asses its effectiveness and so too with AA's recovery program. Bill W frequently attempted to emphasize this consideration but it seems to get obscured. In all likelihood, when discussing success rates, we are indeed talking about a small fraction of those who showed up at meetings or those who were approached in a 12th Step call. It's likely even more severe today given the number of people who are involuntarily sent to AA by courts and others. In a reprint of a November 1949 article in the American Journal of Psychiatry, Bill W wrote "Of alcoholics who stay with us and really try, 50% get sober at once and stay that way, 25% do so after some time and the remainder usually show improvement. But many problem drinkers do quit AA after a brief contact, maybe three or four out of five. Some are too psychopathic or damaged. But the majority have powerful rationalizations yet to be broken down. Exactly this does happen provided they get what AA calls "good exposure" on first contact. Alcohol then builds such a hot fire that they are finally driven back to us, often years later." Note the qualification [in 1949] by Bill W, that the 50-75% "success rate" applies to a subset of about 1-2 prospects out of 5. The remainder of the prospects (3 or 4 out of 5) "quit AA after a brief contact." [from another private email to Billy Bob and others] The topic of "AA success rates" has been of interest to me for quite some time. I believe it suffers from a great deal of anecdotal misinformation, misinterpretation and editorializing and seems to divide itself into two categories: 1. Verifying the popular, and repeated, notion of about a 50% success rate (with about 25% of the "slippers" returning to successfully recover). This has been the prevailing "best guess" of AA's recovery outcomes going back to the late 1930s. From research I've done so far, I believe this is probably a reasonable "best estimate" of AA's success (both early and current AA). The only qualification being that it applies to those who attempt to give AA a try (i.e. you get out of AA what you put into it). 2. Scrutinizing a newer (and quite erroneous) assertion that AA is achieving a 5% or less success rate. This is based on a misinterpretation of a 1989 GSO report examining prior AA membership surveys (see Tom E's AAHistoryLovers posting #2379). The 5% notion is bogus but there is a segment of AA members that not only readily believes it but also attempts to exploit it to support personal agendas. To me, this is one of the biggest disservices AA members are doing to AA today (all of course claiming to rescue AA from itself and its presumed decline). The most historically revisionist, in this 5% [assertion is] the Back to Basics crowd. It is the principle [and very dubious] premise of their existence. Assessment of success rates" is complicated by the fact that, beyond a very limited period of time [and limited scope] in early AA, there is no consistent statistical record keeping backing up an assertion of recovery successes one way or another. Because of AA's autonomous structure, it's a major effort to just get a reasonable estimate of the number of groups much less an estimate of member recovery outcomes. One thing that is important to arriving at an informed conclusion in our forum is that members of AAHistoryLovers retain the opportunity to express their viewpoints and findings irrespective of whether it is popular or unpopular. This way whatever is presented is subjected to both defense and refutation of its validity. As a result, sooner or later the facts will emerge and prevail. This is the same methodology used in the academic arena and it works (warts and all). One of the more difficult issues to reconcile is the case of figurative statements being interpreted literally. For example, Bill W is often cited as having said this or that as if Bill was in possession of hard statistical data when in fact he was simply offering a personal estimate of what he sincerely believed. The same is true for statements in AA literature. In those cases where there is a local study of success and failure, the question arises whether the study can serve to rise to the level of statistical confidence to describe the Fellowship as a whole at the time - or does it simply describe the local area. As a human being, Bill W made errors in his recording of AA history. It was not done to be deceptive or misleading but was only the product of human error. The difficulty is that many in AA take a stand that if something is in the Big Book then it is accorded the same standing as scripture and if something is said by Bill W it is irrefutable. This is when it gets awkward (and sometimes heated). Likewise, the authors of AA literature (Bill W included) are also human and can make human errors in research and reporting. The other difficulty is how to frame fragments of information into proper context. For example, [Billy Bob's citation of Francis Hartigan has a basis of truth but is being taken out of context]. Francis Hartigan, in his book "Bill W" mentions his (Hartigan's) interpretation of the "success rate" that Bill and Bob achieved while Bill was staying with Bob in Akron from May to August 1935. What's missing from the description of this period of time is that Bill and Dr Bob (who also suffered a relapse during the period) had 2 failures and 2 successes. The failures were a Dr McK (mentioned in Bill's autobiography "Bill W My First 40 Years") and Edgar "Eddie" R mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers." The successes were Bill D (AA #3) and Ernie G (albeit a temporary success that would later go the way of Ebby T). However, the main omission, in terms of context, was that the target population of prospects were alcoholics of the type that were written off as hopeless and beyond any help (so that a single success would be remarkable in terms of the typical fatal outcome for these prospects). The other context issue concerns remarks attributed to Bill W at Dr Bob's memorial (and Hartigan's citation as well). [In the talk] Bill qualified that he was referring to the "flying blind" period of AA (so was Hartigan). It would hardly qualify as an appropriate point of reference to characterize AA success or failure. Billy Bob does hit on a point that celebrity (in the case of Joe and Charlie) can vest members with an aura of historical validity when, in fact, they are simply relaying what they believe is true but is lacking in factual demonstration. Clancy I of LA also likes to mention in his talks that most of the members who had their stories printed in the 1st edition Big Book went back to drinking. That too is myth and is completely refuted by Bill W in his introduction to the new stories in the 2nd edition Big Book. But I guess sticking to the facts doesn't always make for an entertaining talk to the circuit speaker folks. .. Finally, and this can't be stressed enough, AA started with 2 members in June 1935 and today has well over 2 million members. That is not a measurement of failure by anybody's benchmark. In between 1935 and today there were tens of millions of alcoholics who recovered and survived thanks to AA and this too is not factored into the assessments of success and failure outcomes. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of backtobasicsbillybob Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:18 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob's Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 "You haven't any conception these days of how much failure we had. How you had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait. Yes, the discouragement's were very great but some did stay sober and some very tough ones at that." Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob's Memorial Speech, Nov. 1952, At The 24th Street Club in New York City, New York. To Thine Own Self Be True, Billy-Bob Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3328. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s talk at Rockland State Hospital From: bludahlia2003 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 4:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anyone know where I might find information about the presentation that Bill W gave to the Board Meeting at Rockland State Hospital (now known as Rockland Psychiatric Center) in 1939? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3329. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Freeman Carpenter From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 8:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Freeman Carpenter" (Clyde B., who is alive, sober -- I believe -- since 1946, and should therefore be anonymous) has his own website, FreemanCarpenter@aol.com, lives in Eastern PA, and has been invited to the History and Archives Gathering in Lebanon PA June 24 2006 -- I don't know if he'll be able to be there, as he is 86 years old and lives 90 or so miles away. -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3330. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 9:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John Bill had 4 admissions to Towns Hospital. Source References (with page numbers) AACOA - AA Comes of Age BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen GB - Getting Better LOH - Language of the Heart LR - Lois Remembers NG - Not God NW - New Wine PIO - Pass It On RAA - The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous (formerly AA the Way It Began) 1933 Autumn, Lois, now earning $22.50 a week at Macy's ($317 today) turned to her brother-in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, who arranged, and paid for, Bill W's first admission to Towns Hospital. Bill was subjected to the "belladonna cure." The regimen primarily involved "purging and puking" aided by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174) 1934 Jul (?), Bill W's second admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V Strong). Bill met Dr Silkworth for the first time. Silkworth explained the obsession and allergy of alcoholism but Bill started drinking again almost immediately upon discharge. Bill was unemployable, $50,000 in debt ($675,000 today) suicidal and drinking around the clock. (AACOA 52, PIO 106-108, BW-40 114-117, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 50-55) Sep 17 (date provided by Ron C. of NSW, Australia. - from an Archives copy of the Towns Hospital admission record). This was Bill W's third admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V Strong). Dr Silkworth pronounced Bill a hopeless drunk and informed Lois that Bill would likely have to be committed. Bill left the hospital a deeply frightened man and sheer terror kept him sober. He found a little work on Wall St, which began to restore his badly shattered confidence. (PIO 106-109, LR 87, AACOA vii, 56, BW-RT 176-177, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 4-5, 54-55) Nov 11, Armistice Day. Bill W went to play golf and got drunk and injured. Lois began investigating sanitariums in which to place Bill. (AACOA 56-58, BW-FH 56) Dec 11, after a drunken visit to Calvary Mission, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got financial help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31). Cheers Arthur ____________________________________ Original Message: I understand that Bill W.'s first three trips to Towns Hospital were paid for by his brother-in-law, Dr. Strong. Who paid for his fourth trip, in December 1934? Thanks, George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3331. . . . . . . . . . . . The Stools and Bottles Talk From: Tommy . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 6:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While reading the book "Stools and Bottles" I found out it is written from a old series of talks given by AA members using a 3 legged stool and bottles to demostrate character defects. The book mentions it is only using the highlights. Is there anywhere I can get a copy of the whole transcript on paper or the talk on tape. I have searched this board and the net with no luck. Thanks for your time. Tommy H in NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3332. . . . . . . . . . . . New York Metro Meeting Lists From: rrecovery2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2006 10:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In our research for the history of groups in Suffolk County (Long Island, New York, we have found the New York metro meeting lists invaluable. These covered Manhattan and the surrounding boroughs. It is just so difficult tracking them down. General Services Archives has just a few, as is the case with the other New York area Archives. Is anyone aware of stash of these some place? Maybe a private collector? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3333. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Kansas City From: michael oates . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 6:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am a member of the first AA group in Kansas City, that had Black members. It started out as Kansas City inter-racial or the inter-racial group of Kansas City it is now called the Paseo AA group. I was hoping to find someone who came through Kansas City between 1947 and 1951 that rememebers the old inter-racial group. It would go a long way in helping us prepare for our 60th anniversary. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3334. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early A.A. Success Rate From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2006 7:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Hazelden book "Bill W. My First 40 Years," has a quote from Bill in its Afterword on p. 167, "While the overall A.A. program moved toward stability and maturity, Bill still seemed obsessed with those who somehow weren't weren't able to make A.A. work for them. Warning of the dangers of pride and complacency, he challenged A.A. members at A.A.'s thirtieth anniversary meeting with a question: 'What happened to the 600,000 who approached A.A. and left?'" The quote is not attributed in any foot note. I assume he means 600k came to A.A. during its first thirty years and didn't stay sober. My trusty 2nd edition, 7th printing of the Big Book, published in March, I believe, of 1965 states in a footnote on p. xv, "As of 1965, there are over 11,000 groups in over 90 countries with an estimated membership of more than 350,000." A quick and dirty calculation gives a success rate of around 40%, actually 36.8%, but this doesn't include those who came to A.A. and died sober during the first thirty years. We also aren't told where Bill got the 600k number. My problem with all this is in line with what Glenn C. says. Before one starts making statements, one needs to define what one is stating and where the numbers are coming from. Tommy in Baton Rouge. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3335. . . . . . . . . . . . History and Archives Gathering June 24 (Flyer) From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2006 1:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a copy of the flyer for the June 24 2006 History and Archives Gathering, Lebanon PA. This is the planned program, assuming no changes or withdrawals. MULTI-DISTRICT HISTORY and ARCHIVES GATHERING Saturday June 24th 2006 REGISTRATION, COFFEE AND DOUGHNUTS 8 A.M. - 9 A.M. LIVING AA HISTORY: OLDTIMERS PANEL LEAD SPEAKER CHET H, HUMMELSTOWN PA DLD 4/4/49 EXPERIENCING AA HISTORY: DOING THE STEPS WITH CLARENCE S MITCH K, WASHINGTONVILLE NY PANEL ON WRITING A.A. HISTORY LEAD SPEAKER GLENN C, SOUTH BEND IN LUNCH PANEL ON THE PROPOSED (GSO) AA HISTORY 1955-2000 PANEL ON WRITING AA LOCAL HISTORY: THE FOUNDERS IN EASTERN PA ARCHIVES EXHIBITS FROM EASTERN PA, MARYLAND, NORTH JERSEY, AND THE CLARENCE S. ARCHIVES ST CECILIA'S PARISH HALL 750 STATE DRIVE LEBANON PA 17042 From PA Turnpike exit at Route 72 (Lancaster-Lebanon Exit), take Route 72 North into Lebanon (about 6 miles plus). In Lebanon turn right on Route 422 East at traffic light. Continue to Lincoln Avenue (about half a mile or less). Turn right on Lincoln to Y in road where you take the left fork onto State Drive. St Cecilia's Parish Hall is on the left about a quarter-mile up. From Lancaster take Route 72 (Manheim Pike) North to Lebanon and then as above. From the Northwest, take Route 322 East to I-81 North just outside of Harrisburg. Take I-81 N to Route 934 and go south on Route 934 (away from Fort Indiantown Gap) a short distance to Route 22. Take Route 22 East to Route 72 South. Follow Route 72 South through center of Lebanon to Route 422 East and then as above. From the North on I-81 Exit at Route 72 South through Lebanon to 422 East and then as above. From the East on Route 78 Exit at Route 343. Follow Route 343 (a couple of miles) into Lebanon (N. 7th Street). Turn left on Maple Street. Go about three-fifths of a mile to Lincoln Avenue. Turn right on Lincoln to Y in road and continue left on State Drive as above. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3336. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 10:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When/where I got sober (as they say), all of these were still being suggested as essential reading (as well as the standard AA literature) Big Book and the 12x12, etc, the little Black Book, Red Book and Green Book, and Living Sober. By sponsors and my home group. One of the things I find appalling in too many meetings today is the lack of suggestions that newcomers read the literature. We always gave out a copy of "Living Sober" to all newcomers, whether or not they came back. And sponsors always made sure their sponsees had the Big Book and a copy of the 12x12, at the very least. Jon Markle Raleigh On 4/13/06 1:55 PM, "Matthugh Bennett" wrote: > I was wondering if there was any documentation as > to the early members being readers or listeners of > Emmet Fox. I have been reading his writings for > about a year and find the spirit of the message > strong there. > > I had someone tell me that there was "AA History" > where there was no Emmet and then "revised history" > with Emmet. I'm more curious from a historical > standpoint. Wether they read it or not has not > kept it from helping me grow spiritually! > ________________________________ > > From the moderator, Glenn C. -- Yes, Emmet Fox's > book was widely read and greatly admired in early > A.A., see for example: > > The Old-Time Akron Reading List: > Books for A.A. Beginners > > (http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html) > > A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (THE AKRON MANUAL), > published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early > 1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, and > handed out to alcoholics when they were admitted to > the hospital for detoxing, gives a list at the end > of ten recommended readings for newcomers to A.A., > so that they might better understand the spiritual > aspects of the program. > > "The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has > helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous": > > (1) Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book). > > (2) The Holy Bible (especially the Sermon on the Mount > in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians > 13, and Psalms 23 and 91). > > (3) The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. > > (4) The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing > Co., Milwaukee). > > (5) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. > > (6) The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). > > (7) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. > > (8) Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. > Ligon (Macmillan Co.). > > (9) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. > > (10) The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton. > ________________________________ > > As you can see, Emmet Fox's book was number six on > the early Akron AA recommended reading list. It is > easy to obtain copies of this book. > > There is a new edition of Allen's and Drummond's > books which Mel B. published in 2004 (see > http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html). > > Allen's book in particular hits many of the same > themes which appear in Emmet Fox. This early > twentieth century approach to spirituality was > called New Thought. Many early AA members were > strongly influenced by New Thought in their > interpretation of the AA program. The Unity > Church of Peace is one group which still teaches > a New Thought approach to spirituality. > > (This is NOT the same as "New Age," which means > magic crystals and channeling and all that sort of > thiing.) > > The Detroit Pamphlet (the Detroit version of the > Table Leader's Guide, a widely used set of early > A.A. beginners lessons) had a long passage from > Emmet Fox at the end, called "Staying on the > Beam." *** > ________________________________ > > Can any members of the group give us other references > to Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount in early AA > literature? > > There was one weekly meeting in early AA in South > Bend, Indiana, where I live, which read Emmet Fox's > book during their meetings, and insisted that > everybody in the AA group be thoroughly familiar > with that book. > ________________________________ > > *** STAYING ON THE BEAM, by Emmet Fox > > (http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html) > > Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam > is produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on > this beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, > or get his bearings in any other way. > As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he > immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more. > Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which > to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some > sense of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if > outer things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off > the beam you are in danger. > You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or > frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should > immediately get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, > claiming His Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, > and that the promises in the Bible are true today. > If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your > own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will > reach port in safety. > Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you. > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3337. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Emmet Fox From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 10:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Sermon On The Mount by Emmet Fox was published in 1934. Both Fox and the book were quite popular among early AA members in both NY and Akron. NY members would also attend Fox's lectures. Dr Bob recommended it for reading for Akron, OH members. Please refer to "New Wine" by Mel B, pages 111-112 and 114 and "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" pages 310-311) The following is from the February 1996 Grapevine Emmet Fox and Alcoholics Anonymous One of the very early recovering alcoholics who worked with co-founder Bill W. was a man named Al, whose mother was secretary to Emmet Fox, a popular lecturer on New Thought philosophy. When the early groups were meeting in New York, members would frequently adjourn after a meeting and go to Steinway Hall to listen to Fox's lecture. To this day there are AA groups that distribute Fox's pamphlets along with Conference-approved AA literature. An account set forth in "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" tells of the influence of Emmet Fox and his classic work, "Sermon on the Mount." An AA old-timer recollected: "The first thing he (Dr. Bob) did was to get Emmet Fox's ‘Sermon on the Mount'....Once when I was working on a woman in Cleveland, I called and asked him what to do for someone who is going into DT's. He told me to give her the medication and he said, ‘When she comes out of it and she decides she wants to be a different woman, get her Drummond's ‘The Greatest Thing in the World.' Tell her to read it through every day for thirty days and she'll be a different woman.' Those were the three main books at the time; that and ‘The Upper Room' and ‘The Sermon on the Mount.'" Perhaps the fundamental contribution of Emmet Fox to Alcoholics Anonymous was the simplicity and power of "The Sermon on the Mount." This book sets forth the basic principles of the New Thought philosophy that "God is the only power, and that evil is insubstantial; that we form our own destiny by our thoughts and our beliefs; that conditions do not matter when we pray; that time and space and matter are human illusions; that there is a solution to every problem; that man is the child of God, and God is perfect good." Central to New Thought philosophy was the perspective which saw that love and personal forgiveness were the keys to fundamental transformation: "Love is by far the most important thing of all. It is the Golden Gate of Paradise. Pray for the understanding of love, and meditate upon it daily. It casts out fear. It is the fulfilling of the Law. It covers a multitude of sins. Love is absolutely invincible." Fox went on to say that forgiveness was an integral part of the Pathway of Love, "which is open to everyone in all circumstances, and upon which you may step at any moment - at this moment if you like - requires no formal introduction, has no conditions whatever. It calls for no expensive laboratory in which to work, because your own daily life, and your ordinary daily surroundings are your laboratory. It needs no reference library, no professional training, no external apparatus of any kind. All it does need is that you should begin steadfastly to expel from your mentality every thought of personal condemnation (you must condemn a wrong action, but not the actor), of resentment for old injuries, and of everything which is contrary to the law of Love. You must not allow yourself to hate either person, or group, or nation, or anything whatever. "You must build-up by faithful daily exercise the true Love-consciousness, and then all the rest of spiritual development will follow upon that. Love will heal you. Love will illumine you." One of the cornerstones of Fox's philosophy was to live but one day at a time, to be responsible for one's own thoughts and to clear up resentments, just as AA was to teach that "resentments are our number one cause of slips." For Fox, one of the most important rules for growth was to live in the present: "Live in today, and do not allow yourself to live in the past under any pretense. Living the past means thinking about the past, rehearsing past events, especially if you do this with feeling...train yourself to be a man or woman who lives one day at a time. You'll be surprised how rapidly conditions will change for the better when you approach this ideal." Emmet Fox emphasized the idea that thoughts are real things, and that one cannot have one kind of mind and another kind of life. According to Fox, if we want to change our lives, then we must change our thoughts first. Many of his simply stated profundities have contributed to an AA philosophy that has transformed the lives of literally two million recovering alcoholics. Igor S., Hartford, Conn. February 1996 AA Grapevine. (c) AA Grapevine, Inc. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matthugh Bennett Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 12:55 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Emmet Fox I was wondering if there was any documentation as to the early members being readers or listeners of Emmet Fox. I have been reading his writings for about a year and find the spirit of the message strong there. I had someone tell me that there was "AA History" where there was no Emmet and then "revised history" with Emmet. I'm more curious from a historical standpoint. Wether they read it or not has not kept it from helping me grow spiritually! ________________________________ From the moderator, Glenn C. -- Yes, Emmet Fox's book was widely read and greatly admired in early A.A., see for example: The Old-Time Akron Reading List: Books for A.A. Beginners (http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html) A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (THE AKRON MANUAL), published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early 1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, and handed out to alcoholics when they were admitted to the hospital for detoxing, gives a list at the end of ten recommended readings for newcomers to A.A., so that they might better understand the spiritual aspects of the program. "The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous": (1) Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book). (2) The Holy Bible (especially the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91). (3) The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. (4) The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee). (5) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. (6) The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). (7) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. (8) Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.). (9) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. (10) The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton. ________________________________ As you can see, Emmet Fox's book was number six on the early Akron AA recommended reading list. It is easy to obtain copies of this book. There is a new edition of Allen's and Drummond's books which Mel B. published in 2004 (see http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html). Allen's book in particular hits many of the same themes which appear in Emmet Fox. This early twentieth century approach to spirituality was called New Thought. Many early AA members were strongly influenced by New Thought in their interpretation of the AA program. The Unity Church of Peace is one group which still teaches a New Thought approach to spirituality. (This is NOT the same as "New Age," which means magic crystals and channeling and all that sort of thiing.) The Detroit Pamphlet (the Detroit version of the Table Leader's Guide, a widely used set of early A.A. beginners lessons) had a long passage from Emmet Fox at the end, called "Staying on the Beam." *** ________________________________ Can any members of the group give us other references to Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount in early AA literature? There was one weekly meeting in early AA in South Bend, Indiana, where I live, which read Emmet Fox's book during their meetings, and insisted that everybody in the AA group be thoroughly familiar with that book. ________________________________ *** STAYING ON THE BEAM, by Emmet Fox (http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html) Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam is produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on this beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, or get his bearings in any other way. As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more. Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some sense of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if outer things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off the beam you are in danger. You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should immediately get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, claiming His Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, and that the promises in the Bible are true today. If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will reach port in safety. Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3338. . . . . . . . . . . . The "heavy sedative" in Bill''s story (BB p. 7) From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 11:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi history lovers, can anyone tell us what was the "heavy sedative" that was prescribed to Bill on page 7 in the Big Book where he said: "Next day found me drinking both gin and sedative. This combination soon landed me on the rocks." Thanks for you help in this matter. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3339. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W.''s talk at Rockland State Hospital From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 8:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As I recall (though 30 years is a long time), there was a copy of that presentation in the AA archives. Someone at GSO may be able to speak to that. ernie kurtz __________________________ bludahlia2003 wrote: > Anyone know where I might find information about > the presentation that Bill W gave to the Board > Meeting at Rockland State Hospital (now known as > Rockland Psychiatric Center) in 1939? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3340. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 5:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Matt, I asked Bill Wilson about Emmet Fox and he said they even attended his lectures in New York in the 1930s. He also said they read The Sermon on the Mount. I found my own copy of it in Pontiac, Michigan, in February, 1951, and have read it ever since. Mike E., the second member of AA in Detroit, even told of reading it while he was still getting well from his last drunk; he had to rest it on pillow to hold it steady! I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against literature that isn't conference-approved has eliminated this any several other good books from most meetings. I recommend it whenever I can and sometimes mention it in talks. Mel Barger ___________________________ Note from the moderator: See Mel's little article on Emmet Fox at http://hindsfoot.org/Fox1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3341. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox mentioned by name in the Big Book From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 7:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Earl Marsh, in his Big Book story "Physician Heal Thyself," mentions Emmet Fox's then, and still, popular book "SERMON ON THE MOUNT." See page 348 of the third edition of the Big Book. Bob S., from Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3342. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Ricky Holcomb . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 8:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree, I know Joe personally and have never viewed him as a person who is trying to get anybody to believe that the success rate in AA was any different than now--what I have learned from him is that he feels strongly about trying to get alcoholics to really try the steps and have a life changing experience rather than just attending meetings and trying to not drink. Ricky H. ________________________________ Doug B." wrote: Billy-Bob and Jim, The Joe and Charlie Big Book studies that I have attended in the past were nothing like you suggested in your response. They were keeping it very simple and didn't seem to be on any crusade except that of actually having you read the book for yourself. Then again, I haven't been to one in ten years..maybe their message has changed? Doug B. Riverside, CA Ricky Holcomb IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3343. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Exact Quote from Francis Hartigan''s Book In Regard To Early AA''s Success From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 1:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ooops! I attached the wrong reply to Billy Bob's posting. Here's the correction. I exchanged the info below with Billy Bob in a separate email and would like to offer it for consideration: Hi Billy Bob I have Hartigan's book. The portion you emphasize illustrates the matter of context I tried to address. Hartigan actually supports the claim that 50% initially made it yet seems to try to portray a doom and gloom scenario for early 1939. Hartigan should also have cited Bill W's comments on the matter in 1955 in the 2nd edition Big Book. 29 stories were included in the 1st printing of the 1st edition Big Book. 22 of them were dropped in the 2nd edition. There is a myth in AA that the 22 stories were removed because the members had returned to drinking. It's not true. In the introduction to the personal stories in the 2nd edition Big Book Bill W wrote: "When first published in 1939, this book carried 29 stories about alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with the greatest number of readers, the new 2nd Edition (1955) carries a considerably enlarged story section, as above described. Concerning the original 29 case histories, it is a deep satisfaction to record, as of 1955, that 22 have apparently made full recovery from their alcoholism. Of these, 15 have remained completely sober for an average of 17 years each, according to our best knowledge and belief." In the introduction to the "Pioneers of AA Section" in the 2nd edition Bill W went on to write: "Dr Bob and the 12 men and women who here tell their stories were among the early members of AA's first groups. Though 3 have passed away of natural causes, all have maintained complete sobriety for periods ranging from 15 to 19 years as of this date 1955. Today, hundreds of additional AA members can be found who have had no relapse for at least 15 years. All of these then are the pioneers of AA. They bear witness that release from alcoholism can really be permanent." From the figures in Bill W's introduction, approximately 75% of the early members who had their stories in the 1st edition Big Book were sober as of AA's 20th anniversary (1955). Even if half didn't make it, as asserted by Hartigan, the percentage that did is still consistent with early claims of a 50% success rate. The 1st edition story authors is the only fully qualified population that demonstrates the claims that 50% made it and another 25% sobered up again after returning to drinking. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of backtobasicsbillybob Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 12:51 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote from Francis Hartigan's Book In Regard To Early AA's Success "We have to wonder why both the Wilson's and the Smiths did not simply give up. Today the nations best treatment centers report success rates ranging from 25 percent to 50 percent. During Bill's stay in Akron, he and Bob calculated their success rate to be about 5 percent, and among the few who seemed to catch on, not all of them were able to maintain consistent sobriety. The first edition of AA's Big Book, published in 1939, contains the personal recovery stories of many of AA's earliest members. Some years later, Bill made notations in the first copy of the book to come off the press, indicating which of the individuals portrayed therein had stayed sober. A good 50 percent had not." Francis Hartigan, Bill W., Pages 91-92 Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3344. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 1:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I exchanged the info below with Billy Bob in a separate email and would like to offer it for consideration: Hi Billy Bob I have Hartigan's book. The portion you emphasize illustrates the matter of context I tried to address. Hartigan actually supports the claim that 50% initially made it yet seems to try to portray a doom and gloom scenario for early 1939. Hartigan should also have cited Bill W's comments on the matter in 1955 in the 2nd edition Big Book. 29 stories were included in the 1st printing of the 1st edition Big Book. 22 of them were dropped in the 2nd edition. There is a myth in AA that the 22 stories were removed because the members had returned to drinking. It's not true. In the introduction to the personal stories in the 2nd edition Big Book Bill W wrote: "When first published in 1939, this book carried 29 stories about alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with the greatest number of readers, the new 2nd Edition (1955) carries a considerably enlarged story section, as above described. Concerning the original 29 case histories, it is a deep satisfaction to record, as of 1955, that 22 have apparently made full recovery from their alcoholism. Of these, 15 have remained completely sober for an average of 17 years each, according to our best knowledge and belief." In the introduction to the "Pioneers of AA Section" in the 2nd edition Bill W went on to write: "Dr Bob and the 12 men and women who here tell their stories were among the early members of AA's first groups. Though 3 have passed away of natural causes, all have maintained complete sobriety for periods ranging from 15 to 19 years as of this date 1955. Today, hundreds of additional AA members can be found who have had no relapse for at least 15 years. All of these then are the pioneers of AA. They bear witness that release from alcoholism can really be permanent." From the figures in Bill W's introduction, approximately 75% of the early members who had their stories in the 1st edition Big Book were sober as of AA's 20th anniversary (1955). Even if half didn't make it, as asserted by Hartigan, the percentage that did is still consistent with early claims of a 50% success rate. The 1st edition story authors is the only fully qualified population that demonstrates the claims that 50% made it and another 25% sobered up again after returning to drinking. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of backtobasicsbillybob Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:18 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob's Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 "You haven't any conception these days of how much failure we had. How you had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait. Yes, the discouragement's were very great but some did stay sober and some very tough ones at that." Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob's Memorial Speech, Nov. 1952, At The 24th Street Club in New York City, New York. To Thine Own Self Be True, Billy-Bob Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3345. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Use of Dash in First Step From: michael oates . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 6:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages from Michael Oates, George Brown, Tom E., and Rick Tompkins ______________________________ From: michael oates (moates57 at yahoo.com) A dash is an extra long comma used to hold the pause before adding the new phrase or thought. That being said maybe Bill really wanted us to think about the preceding phrase before tackling the prase that follows the dash. It seems that too many of us are dealing with unmanageability rather than alcoholism a dash is not an arrow. ______________________________ From: george brown (gbaa487 at yahoo.com) i might as well add to this discussion. the use of a dash is to "emphasize and/or explain the main clause." so. in this case it is explaining and emphasizing the fact that we are "powerless over alcohol." to my understanding it is explaining that when we are powerless our lives become unmanageable; it is also emphasizing that fact. ______________________________ From: Tom E. (ny-aa at att.net) Personally, I consider the dash--typists sometimes called it a double-dash--to be significant in Step 1. IT IS, "1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable." NOT, "1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable." NOT, "1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol because our lives had become unmanageable." NOT, "1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, therefore our lives had become unmanageable." On the other hand, we are discussing the punctuation "Bill chose" without asking who actually chose the punctuation. As historians, we need to look further. What was on his yellow pad when he dictated it to Ruth Hock? Is that available to researchers? Was Bill in the habit of dictating every comma, period, dash, and paragraph break or did he just talk and leave it to Ruth to get something meaningful out of whatever he said? I believe it was the latter. So, to what extent did Bill adjust what Ruth typed to make punctuation and other details exactly the way he wanted? Even the draft that was distributed was the result of much debate and compromise. We can't say that every jot and tittle is the Revealed Word of Bill. Actually, part of the strength of the A.A. Big Book is that it is a consensus document. Every member at the time and some outside friends had a say in what was in the book. Tom E Wappingers Falls, NY ______________________________ From: ricktompkins@comcast.net (ricktompkins at comcast.net) Hi Art, we are in esoteric and mystical hot water, obviously... The colon use is correct in your posting; the colon also could work in the dash-ing of Step One, as could i.e. or e.g. The 1930s readers probably could have handled any of them and future generations (i.e. us) would have analyzed it as has gone on in the past few posts here. The dash separating the two phrases in Step One is an esoteric emphasis, dontcha think? Perhaps the original linotype operators enjoyed its use, too. Hearing the step read as a part of "How It Works" the dash sounds like a simple comma--thankfully no one comes out and says "dash." Reading the text, I always felt that the dash added real impact from the first time I viewed it, and that impact remains powerful to me today. Two distinct concepts in Step One, placed in the same sentence to drive home the idea that the latter results from the former. Imagine that! Esoterically, to me the two phrases work in reverse sequence, too. I tell new prospects to consider the dash as an equal sign, and the distributive math principle kicks in as reinforcement. No balance beam or seesaw analysis, please, it might bring on a mysticism angle that's absent from this Step. Cheers to all, hope a 2006 Springtime brings great new discoveries to us! Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3346. . . . . . . . . . . . Monroe, Michigan From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2006 3:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Over the last few years there has been an off again and on again effort to find out the history of AA in Monroe, Michigan. From what we can tell no one has ever actually written down anything on it. We have some names and an idea of when and where the first meetings were held. But, most of that is sketchy. It would be appreciated if anyone has any information that might be helpful to forward it to me or post it on this message board. Your help is greatly appreciated. tmd [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3347. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2006 10:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 09:02 4/16/2006 , you wrote: >When/where I got sober (as they say), all of these were still being >suggested as essential reading (as well as the standard AA literature) Big >Book and the 12x12, etc, the little Black Book, Red Book and Green Book, and >Living Sober. By sponsors and my home group. Would these books be Richmond Walker's 24 Hours a Day, Webster's Little Red Book and Stools and Bottles? Big Book, 12x12, and Living Sober are self-explanatory. My wife spent her first 18y in NYC and she says they gave out Living Sober to new people. I think that is a great idea. I could pick it up when I was new and read a few pages and was unable to do the same with the Big Book. Tommy H [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3348. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2006 11:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I surely agree. I was fortunate to be Maine's Archivist for eight years and by what seemed necessity, I began to do the unthinkable - read non-conference approved literature. It enhanced my sobriety and allowed me to do my service job in a much more informative and interesting way. I picked up the habit and have been at it ever since. I just finished a book called Drinking: A Love Story by Caroline Knapp - one of the best personal stories I have read in a long time. As far as AA history goes; Not God, Sister Ignatia:The Angel Of AA, Grateful to Have Been There and so many others have made my journey much more enlightened and joyful. Many of the books I have read were recommended by Frank M. the late alcoholic archivist of GSO. He was a truly sweet gentleman and I miss him to this day. lee --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mel Barger" wrote: > > Hi Matt, > I asked Bill Wilson about Emmet Fox and he said > they even attended his lectures in New York in the > 1930s. He also said they read The Sermon on the > Mount. > > I found my own copy of it in Pontiac, Michigan, in > February, 1951, and have read it ever since. > > Mike E., the second member of AA in Detroit, even > told of reading it while he was still getting well > from his last drunk; he had to rest it on pillow > to hold it steady! > > I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against > literature that isn't conference-approved has > eliminated this any several other good books from > most meetings. I recommend it whenever I can and > sometimes mention it in talks. > > Mel Barger > > ___________________________ > > Note from the moderator: > > See Mel's little article on Emmet Fox at > http://hindsfoot.org/Fox1.html > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3349. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox, black and red and green books, etc. From: Billy-Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2006 11:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Billy-Bob, Jon Markle, Robert Stonebraker, Lynn Sawyer, and Glenn C. ______________________________ From: Billy-Bob (backtobasicsbillybob at yahoo.com) When I first came to AA in 1985 I was told by my temporary sponsor to get a copy of the Little Red Book, Stools And Bottles, The 24 Hour A Day Book, The Big Book and the 12 and12. I read Emmet Fox's version of the Sermon On The Mount, but I like the version that Jesus wrote better. (lol) Billy-Bob ______________________________ Jon Markle (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) wrote: When/where I got sober (as they say), all of these were still being suggested as essential reading (as well as the standard AA literature) Big Book and the 12x12, etc, the little Black Book, Red Book and Green Book, and Living Sober. By sponsors and my home group. One of the things I find appalling in too many meetings today is the lack of suggestions that newcomers read the literature. We always gave out a copy of "Living Sober" to all newcomers, whether or not they came back. And sponsors always made sure their sponsees had the Big Book and a copy of the 12x12, at the very least. Jon Markle Raleigh ______________________________ From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) Robert Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) wrote: Dr. Earl Marsh, in his Big Book story "Physician Heal Thyself," mentions Emmet Fox's then, and still, popular book "SERMON ON THE MOUNT." See page 348 of the third edition of the Big Book. Dear Bob, Thanks for the tip! I FOUND IT!! My 3rd Edition is the one I always bring to BB studies--some of the pages are coming out, and it's all highlighted up, but I love it just the same. Also have a 4th Edition, hard cover, that, admittedly, hasn't seen much (read:enough) wear, yet. Arthur and others, Thanks so much for all the detail about Emmet Fox and his writings and teachings. I've not heard of the Green Book, but the others, I have. I think I'm gonna look for the Little Red Book and Emmet Fox's book, at my local used book store, soon. I used to read from the Upper Room. Think I got it from my Dad, who was a Methodist. I think it still exists today. Happy sobriety, Lynn from Sacramento, CA ______________________________ From the moderator: "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" was written by AA member Richmond Walker, who got sober in Boston in 1943, and later moved to Daytona Beach, Florida. His book was sponsored by the Daytona Beach AA group. See http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla1.html and http://hindsfoot.org/rwpix1.html. It and the Big Book were the two most important books in early AA for many years. It is still read from in numerous AA meetings. "The Little Red Book" and "Stools and Bottles" (which had a green cover) were written by AA member Ed Webster and sponsored by the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis, Minnesota. See http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html and http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html. When Ed Webster wrote "The Little Red Book," he continually consulted with Dr. Bob, who put many notes on the manuscript suggesting additions and changes. This is our best guide as to the way Dr. Bob understood the twelve steps. Dr. Bob sent copies of this all over the world, from Canada to Florida, and also made sure that the New York AA office had copies available for sale until the time he died in 1950. The understood principle in early AA was that any work which had been published under the sponsorship of one AA group, could be read from and sold to their members by any other AA group which wished to do so, without need of any further discussion. Issues like this in AA have always been decided by precedent (just as in English Common Law and in modern American law) and not by a small group of people deciding to pass a group of rules. So if you look at AA in the 1930's, 40's, 50's, and 60's, and put together a list of books that were read by AA groups, then on the grounds of precedent alone, these books are can be read by modern AA groups and sold by modern intergroups without even any need of discussion. They are automatically considered perfectly O.K. The AA that saves us is the AA of the 1930's, 40's, 50's, and 60's, not some brainstorm on the part of a small group of modern delegates who come up with some theory and decide to pass rules. We are saved by doing what the good old timers did, not by following a set of mechanical and legalistic rules. We don't look at lists of rulings passed by conferences and assemblies to find out what good AA is, we read AA history to discover what really good AA is. "My story is my message" means that the story of early AA is its crucial message, people in the early days witnessing to what gave them sobriety and real serenity of life. When we listen to them, and try to do what they said they did (including read the books which they said they read), we will find that kind of sobriety and serenity ourselves. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3350. . . . . . . . . . . . 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 10:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there Does anyone know which records Clarence is referring to when he make the statement about the recovery rate in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, at page 261? Thanks Bent IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3351. . . . . . . . . . . . One-Day History ‘ Archives Gathering June 24 2006 Lebanon PA From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 2:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Gathering will be held at St Cecilia's Social Hall 750 State Drive Lebanon PA registration at 8-9 am invited speakers oldtimers Clyde B (6/20/1946) and Chet H (4/4/1949), possibly one or two others over 50 years, plus Glenn C (Moderator of AAHL and author of several books on AA History), Mitch K (author of HOW IT WORKED and organizer of the Clarence S Archive at Brown), with a panel on the GSO Proposed 1955- 2000 History, and a panel on Writing Local History: the Founders of AA in Eastern PA. Exhibits from several archives. Those interested may contactjaredlobdell@comcast.net for directions. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3352. . . . . . . . . . . . Non-Conference approved literature From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2006 8:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. We make great effort to make these 90 minute sessions interesting. I have learned lot's of interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher, Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung, Rev Shoemaker, Clarence Snyder and all the rest of those early historical participants from non-conference approved materials. Here are listed a few of our current book collection: * EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B. * CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows * DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson, edited by Ellie Van V. * GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing * HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder, By Mitchell K. * SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Mary C. Darrah * NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Ernest Kurtz * BILLW, by Robert Thomsen Here are a few other non-AA history books we use for reference because they were often read by early AA members: * SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox * AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen * THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond But naturally our main source of historical information come from the Conference approved books from GSO . Bob S. ???????????????????????????? -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Lee Nickerson Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:28 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Emmet Fox I surely agree. I was fortunate to be Maine's Archivist for eight years and by what seemed necessity, I began to do the unthinkable - read non-conference approved literature. It enhanced my sobriety and allowed me to do my service job in a much more informative and interesting way. I picked up the habit and have been at it ever since. I just finished a book called Drinking: A Love Story by Caroline Knapp - one of the best personal stories I have read in a long time. As far as AA history goes; Not God, Sister Ignatia:The Angel Of AA, Grateful to Have Been There and so many others have made my journey much more enlightened and joyful. Many of the books I have read were recommended by Frank M. the late alcoholic archivist of GSO. He was a truly sweet gentleman and I miss him to this day. lee --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mel Barger" wrote: > > Hi Matt, > I asked Bill Wilson about Emmet Fox and he said > they even attended his lectures in New York in the > 1930s. He also said they read The Sermon on the > Mount. > > I found my own copy of it in Pontiac, Michigan, in > February, 1951, and have read it ever since. > > Mike E., the second member of AA in Detroit, even > told of reading it while he was still getting well > from his last drunk; he had to rest it on pillow > to hold it steady! > > I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against > literature that isn't conference-approved has > eliminated this any several other good books from > most meetings. I recommend it whenever I can and > sometimes mention it in talks. > > Mel Barger > > ___________________________ > > Note from the moderator: > > See Mel's little article on Emmet Fox at > http://hindsfoot.org/Fox1.html > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3353. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: quote from Bill re: the stories From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 7:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On January 23, 1955 Bill wrote Clarence about the stories being changed in the 2nd edition. Here are some excerpts: "Now, another matter. We are making a re-do of the story section of the A.A. book. As you know, the old stories were very low bottom. We then lacked the experience we now have, and we lacked the great variety of cases which A.A. today affords. So among practically all consulted, it seems desirable to broaden and deepen the story section of the book to bring it in line with present-day membership and experience. No change in the text, of course. "The plan for the new story section runs like this: instead of twenty-eight stories, there will be thirty-seven. Headed by Doc Smith, they will be divided into three groups of twelve stories each - the pioneers, the high bottom and the low bottom. "The larger part of the old stories will be dropped from the book, in fact, all the New York ones." (a couple of paragraphs down) "Personally, I hated to take out so many of the old stories. But my reasons were only sentimental, they didn't make sense. The object of the story section is to appeal to as many kinds of drunks as possible and I'm sure that we shall now have a much bigger spread. I hope and believe you will like the result when you see it." I think that might clear up why stories were dropped and/or added. Another line I found interesting was: "As you know, maybe one-half of today's incoming membership is composed of milder potential alcoholics..." Even in 1955 Bill recognized that many wandering through the doors of AA weren't really alcoholics YET. It is the same today and those who come to explore or test the waters maybe shouldn't be counted in all these skewed statistics. Too bad Bill didn't address those few who did choose to resume their drinking careers but I guess he felt that Clarence already knew who they were. --- ArtSheehan wrote: > Ooops! I attached the wrong reply to Billy Bob's > posting. Here's the > correction. I exchanged the info below with Billy > Bob in a separate > email and would like to offer it for consideration: > > Hi Billy Bob > > I have Hartigan's book. The portion you emphasize > illustrates the > matter of context I tried to address. Hartigan > actually supports the > claim that 50% initially made it yet seems to try to > portray a doom > and gloom scenario for early 1939. Hartigan should > also have cited > Bill W's comments on the matter in 1955 in the 2nd > edition Big Book. > > 29 stories were included in the 1st printing of the > 1st edition Big > Book. 22 of them were dropped in the 2nd edition. > There is a myth in > AA that the 22 stories were removed because the > members had returned > to drinking. It's not true. In the introduction to > the personal > stories in the 2nd edition Big Book Bill W wrote: > > "When first published in 1939, this book carried 29 > stories about > alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with > the greatest number > of readers, the new 2nd Edition (1955) carries a > considerably enlarged > story section, as above described. Concerning the > original 29 case > histories, it is a deep satisfaction to record, as > of 1955, that 22 > have apparently made full recovery from their > alcoholism. Of these, 15 > have remained completely sober for an average of 17 > years each, > according to our best knowledge and belief." > > In the introduction to the "Pioneers of AA Section" > in the 2nd edition > Bill W went on to write: > > "Dr Bob and the 12 men and women who here tell their > stories were > among the early members of AA's first groups. Though > 3 have passed > away of natural causes, all have maintained complete > sobriety for > periods ranging from 15 to 19 years as of this date > 1955. Today, > hundreds of additional AA members can be found who > have had no relapse > for at least 15 years. All of these then are the > pioneers of AA. They > bear witness that release from alcoholism can really > be permanent." > > From the figures in Bill W's introduction, > approximately 75% of the > early members who had their stories in the 1st > edition Big Book were > sober as of AA's 20th anniversary (1955). Even if > half didn't make it, > as asserted by Hartigan, the percentage that did is > still consistent > with early claims of a 50% success rate. > > The 1st edition story authors is the only fully > qualified population > that demonstrates the claims that 50% made it and > another 25% sobered > up again after returning to drinking. > > Cheers > Arthur > > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of > backtobasicsbillybob > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 12:51 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote from > Francis Hartigan's > Book In Regard To Early AA's Success > > "We have to wonder why both the Wilson's and the > Smiths did not simply > > give up. Today the nations best treatment centers > report success rates > > ranging from 25 percent to 50 percent. During Bill's > stay in Akron, he > > and Bob calculated their success rate to be about 5 > percent, and among > > the few who seemed to catch on, not all of them were > able to maintain > consistent sobriety. The first edition of AA's Big > Book, published in > 1939, contains the personal recovery stories of many > of AA's earliest > members. Some years later, Bill made notations in > the first copy of > the book to come off the press, indicating which of > the individuals > portrayed therein had stayed sober. A good 50 > percent had not." > > Francis Hartigan, Bill W., Pages 91-92 > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3354. . . . . . . . . . . . Books Early AA''s Read From: rrecovery2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2006 6:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You all might be surprised how easy it is to borrow copies of the Oxford Group books and other books early AAs read. My library routinely interloans copies of all sorts of material for me---from university libraries etc. Just ask your reference desk. Some libraries may charge you the cost of postage. Just on a lark one day, I asked if they could get me a copy of V.C.Kitchen's I Was a Pagan and within a week I was reading a first edition copy. Off the top of my head, I have read early editions of Charles Clapp's books, Peabody's Common Sense of Drinking, Cecil Rose's When a Man Listens and others Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3355. . . . . . . . . . . . Conference approved literature... From: Steve Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Re: Conference approved literature... Is there any reference within conference approved literature or AA World Services literature about the common group conscience guideline of restricting literature in meetings to only "conference approved literature"? This request is of course to assist in settling the often contentious question between newcomers who have not previously come up against the issue and the rest of us. The reflections of this group will be appreciated. Thanks Steve M. Central Oregon ______________________________ From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana) CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE A statement taken from service material released by the GSO in New York. From 1951 on, the Trustees Literature Committee, the Conference Literature Committee, and the participants in the General Service Conferences have overseen the content of AA literature which was published by the AA General Service Office. Please note the second paragraph in this statement: telling people that they CANNOT read "non-conference-approved" literature violates basic AA policies. -------------------------------- "The term 'Conference-approved' describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by GSO. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with AA principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the AA Fellowship." "The term has no relation to material not published by GSO. It does not imply Conference disapproval of other material about AA. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and AA does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read." "Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents solid AA experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of AAs from all over the United States and Canada read and express opinions at every stage of production." -------------------------------- Source: http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html ______________________________ On November 11, 1944, Bobby Burger, the secretary at the Alcoholic Foundation in New York (what is today called the General Service Office) wrote a letter to Barry Collins, who had helped Ed Webster in assembling and publishing the Little Red Book: -------------------------------- "Dear Barry, . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet [a.k.a. the Detroit Pamphlet or Table Mate] and the new Cleveland "Sponsorship" pamphlet and a host of others are all local projects, as is Nicollette's "An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps" [the Little Red Book]. We do not actually approve or disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Foundation feels that each Group is entitled to write up its own "can opener" and let it stand on its merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy. But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't some good points. I think it is up to each individual Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts them out. Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)" -------------------------------- Bill Wilson felt the same way. In November 1950, he wrote a note to Barry Collins about The Little Red Book making the same basic point, only even more strongly. Such locally sponsored works "fill a definite need" and their "usefulness is unquestioned." Most importantly of all, Bill went on to say in that letter: "Here at the Foundation we are not policemen; we're a service and AAs are free to read any book they choose." As quoted in Bill Pittman's Foreword to The Little Red Book: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program, 50th Anniversary Edition (Center City MN: Hazelden, 1996), pp. xvi-xvii. Again, please note that people who try to set themselves up as "AA policemen," to use Bill Wilson's own phrase, where these self-appointed policemen start telling other AA members and AA groups what they "will and will not PERMIT them to read," go against the most basic AA principles and long-established official policies. Source: http://hindsfoot.org/Nread2.html ______________________________ An AA group can of course take a group conscience and vote on what things they will read at that particular meeting. You can't read everything. And if an individual AA group votes that it wants to restrict itself to reading only one particular book (or whatever) and studying that carefully, then of course that group has the right to do that. It can also vote later on to shift to something else and start reading that instead. Each group is totally autonomous. And as it says in the 12 and 12, one of the most fundamental AA rights of all is "the right of a group to be wrong"! ______________________________ See also: http://hindsfoot.org/nread1.html http://hindsfoot.org/Nread2.html http://hindsfoot.org/Nread3.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3356. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Emmet Fox From: Lynn Sawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 2:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Lee and others: Re: Non-Conference Approved Literature I have also enjoyed much of the same. Try one: "The Spirituality of Imperfection", is quite interesting. Don't forget that Alanon has lots of good literature, too! (Yes, we can talk about Alanon, it's mentioned in the Big Book!) Lynn from Sacramento, CA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3357. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: Billy-Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 10:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dick B. claims to have those records in his archives. This was in Cleaveland before the 3rd tradition was established. Back then AA groups could screen and cherry pick their members rather than having to accept anyone how walked through the door seeking help. Billy-Bob Bent Christensen wrote: Hi there Does anyone know which records Clarence is referring to when he make the statement about the recovery rate in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, at page 261? Thanks Bent --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- "The way our "worthy" alcoholics have sometimes tried to judge the "less worthy" is, as we look back on it, rather comical. Imagine, if you can one alcoholic judging another!" Bill Wilson, Who Is A Member Of Alcoholics Anonymous?, AA Grapevine 1946 --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3358. . . . . . . . . . . . recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2006 9:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hazelden sells a set of cd's with Lois being interviewed several years before she died. "An intimate conversation with Lois Wilson" I think Stepping Stones may have it as well. They are wonderful recording and have alot of history in them from "the first person" point of view. published by Bernbil Productions PO box 1136 Little River, SC 29566 Rob White Baltimore Robert White UMB-Psychiatry 410-328-8549 >>> mcfrace1@minn.net 04/11/06 8:56 AM >>> Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 22:19:54 -0700 From: "Mike Aycock" Subject: Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? I thought that someone else would mention this. There is an organization in Minnesota that does an great amount of AA and Al-Anon taping that has several different recordings of Lois W. http://www.gstl.org/ Go to their site map and scroll down to Al-Anon history to start. (Gopher State Tape Library, established 1974). Ken R. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3359. . . . . . . . . . . . 57 years sober another major loss to the fellowship From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 10:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This was the fellow who had 57 years sobriety at the convention on Saturday night. He was in a wheelchair and gave away the Big Books to the newcomers. RIP CURRAN, ROGER GERVASE Age 86 yrs. passed away on Sunday April 9, 2006 at his home in Audubon, NJ. He is predeceased by his wife Mary J. (nee Doneghy) who died in January 2006. Survived by his daughter Mary Ann Curran-Bailey of Williamstown and 3 grandchildren Gary Savvas, Jr. of Washington Twp, Nicole Savvas of Cherry Hill and Danielle Savvas of Parsippany. A retired Sr. Claims Examiner, Mr. Curran was employed by Keystone Insurance Co. in Haddon Heights. He served on the USS Boise Naval carrier, Asiatic Fleet, during WWII. An advocate for older workers rights, Roger was the founder of The Golden Ax Club. He served on the Audubon Celebration Committee with his wife Mary and was a Friend of Bill W's since 1949. Relatives and friends are invited to attend the visitation on Thursday from 12:00 - 1:00PM at the HENRY FUNERAL HOME, 152 W. Atlantic Ave., Audubon where services will follow at 1PM. Interment will be private at the convenience of the family. In lieu of flowers, contributions in his memory may be made to St. James Glory To God Fund, 400 Columbia Ave., Pitman, NJ 08071 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3360. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Billy-Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2006 11:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe and Charlie talk about the decline of the AA sucess rate on their tapes and advocate working the AA program as outlined by the Big Book as a remedy or a way to save AA. All you have to do listen to their tapes and you will hear their pitch. Billy-Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3361. . . . . . . . . . . . Sat. June 3, ''06 annual picnic at Stepping Stones From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2006 3:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mark your calenders: Saturday, June 3, 2006 is the annual picnic at Stepping Stones. Every year Bill and Lois would host a picnic on the grounds of Stepping Stones.. I have gone for the past 6 years and have had a wonderful time...meeting people from all over the world...It's so nice to have this treasure in my own backyard http://www.steppingstones.org The first Saturday in June is the date... Alanon, Alateen and AA speakers at an open meeting on the lawn under the shade of flowering trees... soft drinks (Duh...)are provided, and bring your picnic lunch..tour the home...see the historic and wonderful things on the upstairs walls... visit "Wit's end" where Bill wrote so much of the traditions...and see the original Man on the Bed..or AA #3... You can visit Steppingstones site or email me for directions from the highway... Gene in Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3362. . . . . . . . . . . . Hazelden Foundation and book publishing From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 2:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I want to post something on this subject because of all the confusion I see on this matter. There is at present a famous treatment center called Hazelden in the United States, which also publishes books on a variety of treatment oriented issues. It is a huge operation today, with an enormous budget. The Hazelden Foundation was started in 1949. It began as a small and simple alcoholism treatment program operating out of a Minnesota farmhouse (photo at http://hindsfoot.org/RWcvPhot.html) which was run by AA members. The farmer who originally owned the farm named it "Hazelden Farm" after his wife who was named Hazel. As William L. White notes in "Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America," pp. 201-2 and 207-8, the psychiatrists and psychotherapists did not really take over the Hazelden operation until later, in the 1960's -- their people basically won control of its administration in 1966 -- at which point their program began referring to "chemical dependency" and treating alcoholism and drug addiction as simply versions of the same addictive tendency (which could be treated in the same group setting by identical methods), and so on, in ways that many A.A. old-timers object to strongly. We need to talk about how this all fits in with some of the major early AA books which were written and used by the AA old timers. The four most published AA authors are Bill Wilson, Richmond Walker, Ed Webster, and Ralph Pfau. Bill Wilson's writings were published by the central AA headquarters in New York City and still are. The major religious denominations all have their own publishing houses (Fortress for the Lutherans, Westminster for the Presbyterians, Abingdon for the Methodists, various Roman Catholic presses at places like Notre Dame University and Loyola University and so on). But early AA did not have the money to set up an AA publishing house, and still does not have that kind of money. In fact, it might possibly violate the Twelve Traditions to set one up. As a result, the other three major AA authors began by publishing their books themselves. Early AA member Richmond Walker in Daytona Beach, Florida, had "Twenty Four Hours a Day" printed on the little printing press in the county courthouse, and then distributed them from his basement. Early AA member Ed Webster in Minneapolis ("The Little Red Book" and the green covered "Stools and Bottles") teamed up with fellow AA member Barry Collins to publish these books as the "Coll-Webb Publishing Company," which just meant the two of them paying for the printing themselves and distributing the books themselves. Early AA member Ralph Pfau in Indianapolis ("Father John Doe" and the Golden Books) likewise printed his books himself. He called his little self-publishing operation SMT Guild. "SMT" stood for Society of Matt Talbot. Father Ralph had three nuns who served as his secretaries, and they took care of taking orders and distributing the books. Things went fine (in all three cases) for a number of years. But Richmond Walker finally got too old to keep it up all by himself, so in 1954 Patrick Butler at Hazelden volunteered to take over printing and distributing the books, to make sure that they would still be available to AA members. Rich had had nothing to do with Hazelden at all. He had never visited there. In 1954, Hazelden was still basically just a big farmhouse, and it had not yet turned into a giant enterprise with large numbers of psychiatrists and psychotherapists on its staff. After Ed Webster's death, his widow likewise arranged with Hazelden to take over the publi- cation of Ed's books. After Father Ralph Pfau's death, his niece tried to keep on printing and distributing the Golden Books herself, but after a number of years, it finally got to be too much for her, and so she likewise made an arrangement with Hazelden to take over the job. The people at Hazelden back in those days deserve a lot of credit for taking on the publication of those works, because otherwise they would have gone out of print. The AA headquarters in New York City did not have the money to print them (they were barely able to scrape up enough money to publish the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions") and if they had attempted to set up a big AA-related publishing firm, it probably would have violated the Traditions. Hazelden has also published a lot of good books on AA history, books which the fellowship absolutely needs to have available, but which the New York office cannot afford to print. In order to be healthy, AA needs to have many more books available on AA history and on AA spirituality than the New York office can afford to print. So we have always depended on self- publishing and friendly foundations and so on to carry out this service work for AA. But please, the works of Richmond Walker, Ed Webster, and Father Ralph Pfau are NOT "Hazelden treatment philosophy" and these books were NOT written by a bunch of treatment center psychiatrists. They were WRITTEN BY AA MEMBERS FOR AA MEMBERS (to coin a phrase). Hazelden has also published good books on AA history by people like AA member Mel B. (who was also the principle author of the conference- sponsored AA history book called "Pass It On"). Mel is very definitely not a treatment center psychiatrist! What causes the confusion is that Hazelden ALSO publishes books written by treatment center psychiatrists. We have to distinguish between those books and the books by AA authors. They are two totally different kinds of books. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3363. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 From: Billy-Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2006 4:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The claim that 75 percent achieved a lasting sobriety itself seems strangely and ambiguously worded. "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried (an ambiguous qualifier used to eliminate an unknown percentage of people), 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, (this is the category I personally fall into) and among the remainder, (presumably the remaining 25%) those who stayed on with us showed some improvement. (What the heck does this mean? Does this mean the ultimate success rate is higher than 75%? Does this mean they stayed sober for a while but died drunk and consequently were not counted as successes? It's very unclear.) Other thousands (What other thousands? How many other thousands? Does this refer to the ones who didn't really try?) came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't really want the program. But great numbers of these---(Uh excuse me how many?) about two out of three---(Pardon me? two out of three of how many?) began to return as time passed." Really? How do we know they returned as time passed, who was keeping track of their comings and goings? What does Bill mean by "showed improvement?" This statement is simply to vague to be meaningful. BTW, this statement was found in the forward to the Second Edition which reads "Figures given in this foreword describe the Fellowship as it was in 1955." So claims of a 50 to 75 percent success rate seem to be being claimed for this particular time period and not for the time prior to and shortly after the Big Book was published, the so called "flying blind" period as you describe it. If you read the statement very carefully you will find that it makes very little sense and leaves all kinds of questions unanswered. One is left with the very general idea that if you come to A.A. and really try you have a pretty good chance of making it. While this impression might be pretty accurate, and in my experience it is. We still don't know what percentage of people "really try" i.e. make sufficent effort to make it. According to some of AA's own triennnial surveys a good 95 percent seem to drop out during the first year. That means that about 5 percent "really try". Which means that if 50% get it right away figure and 75% get it eventually figures hold true, it means that after all is said and done that 75% of 5% achieve a lasting sobriety. Sincerely, Billy-Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3364. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 10:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mitchell K., "How It Worked," page 108: "The Ohio membership was opposed to ANY changes in the draft of the book. They had achieved great success using the original message. Their numbers were growing; and the members who were staying sober, were staying sober with little or no cases of relapse into active alcoholism" Two years after the publication of the book, Clarence made a survey of all of the members in Cleveland. He concluded that, by keeping most of the "old program," including the Four Absolutes and the Bible, ninety-three percent of those surveyed had maintained uninterrupted sobriety. Clarence opined that even with New York's "moral psychology" approach to recovery "had nowhere near our recovery rate." Jim S. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bent Christensen" wrote: > > Hi there > > Does anyone know which records Clarence is referring to when he make > the statement about the recovery rate in Dr. Bob and the Good > Oldtimers, at page 261? > > Thanks > Bent > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3365. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Emmet Fox From: spokann24@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2006 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages from spokann24, Billy-Bob, and Lynn Sawyer ______________________________ From: spokann24@aol.com (spokann24 at aol.com) "I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against literature that isn't conference-approved has eliminated this any several other good books from most meetings." It's good to remember that these wonderful books, while not conference-approved, are not conference- DISAPPROVED either! ______________________________ From: Billy-Bob (backtobasicsbillybob at yahoo.com) Yes the advantage of the book Living Sober is it's very short and very practical, in fact it's often called a booklet rather than a book. It is only 88 pages. It concentrates on subjects such as staying away from the first drink, sponsorship and avoiding, "emotional entanglements" in the first few months of sobriety. A lot of the common sense advice and slogans that get passed along word of mouth in AA can be found in the booklet Living Sober and nowhere else in the conference approved AA literature. Agnostics and atheists in AA tend to favor the book Living Sober because there is very little sermonizing about God or a Higher Power in it. Stools and Bottle as I recall also takes on the subject of drinking very directly. Some people who are homophobic in AA dislike the book Living Sober because Barry L. its author was a homosexual. Sincerely, Billy-Bob ______________________________ From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) I, too, have benefited from reading so-called Non-Conference-Approved Literature. Try "The Spirituality of Imperfection"--it, too, is a good read. And don't forget that Alanon has alot of good literature, too. (Yes, we CAN talk about Alanon, it's mentioned in the Big Book!) Lynn from Sacramento, CA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3366. . . . . . . . . . . . Are there AA literature reviews? From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 10:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Suggestion from Arkie for the creation of a list of helpful AA literature, along with comments from Robert Stonebraker and James Bliss about possible books to include on that list. ______________________________ Arkie Koehl (arkie at arkoehl.com) This is a fascinating, useful and helpful thread. Thanks to all. Is there by any chance someplace where such literature is reviewed by peers, or just AA historians, so that relative novices like myself can get a feel for what books are generally better thought of than others? Arkie Koehl Honolulu - - - - - - - - - - - - On Apr 18, 2006, at 14:42, Robert Stonebraker wrote: Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. We make great effort to make these 90 minute sessions interesting. I have learned lots of interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher, Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung, Rev. Shoemaker, Clarence Snyder and all the rest of those early historical participants from non-conference approved materials. Here are listed a few of our current book collection: > * EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B. > * CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows > * DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson, edited by Ellie Van V. > * GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing > * HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder, by Mitchell K. > * SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Mary C. Darrah > * NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Ernest Kurtz > * BILL W, by Robert Thomsen Here are a few other non-AA history books we use for reference because they were often read by early AA members: > * SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox > * AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen > * THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond But naturally our main source of historical information comes from the Conference approved books from GSO . Bob S. ______________________________ From: james.bliss@comcast.net (james.bliss at comcast.net) I have been literature chair for both District and Area and have only seen verbal indications that we are to encourage Conference Approved literature. I will attempt to review any documentation which I have received which may include this in a written form but I do not remember having read any. I was asked to talk during a presentation about 'Carrying the Message' and was instructed the content was to be about carrying the message using conference approved literature. Personally, I believe that any material which is spiritual in nature is acceptable and the Big Book enforces this idea regarding spiritual material. I do encourage various conference approved literature for various reasons: Big Book - it is the AA program 12 and 12 - obvious Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers - historical perspective Pass It On - historical perspective Various guidelines and handbooks depending upon what service work is being performed Open/Closed meeting card - good to read at the respective meeting Anonymity - both the pamphlet and the brief card - good to clear up the confusion about exactly what anonymity is for etc. I also recommend many external reading depending upon the individual and where they are at: Sermon on the Mount - Emmet Fox Fenelon Letters 24 Hours a Day The Little Red Book The Bible - for those member who believe in that religion And many other items which I read from recommendations from friends, religious leaders, browsing in stores. My impression from the Big Book is that we should listen to our spiritual leaders and seek their advice on what materials we might want to read. To me, this is about getting and staying sober, not limiting my reading to a specific publisher. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3367. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference approved literature... From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 3:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Steve wrote Is there any reference within conference approved literature or AA World Services literature about the common group conscience guideline of restricting literature in meetings to only "conference approved literature"? Conference Advisory Actions on Literature. 1977- It was suggested that AA groups be discouraged from selling literature not distributed by the General Service Office and the Grapevine. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3368. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 4:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII References DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers SD - Slaying the Dragon When Cleveland members separated from the Oxford Group (and the Akron, OH meetings) they adopted a very rigorous prescreening procedure for prospects. Today, such prescreening would be considered in direct opposition to the spirit and letter of Tradition Three and morally abhorrent. The following are excerpts from "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers that qualify a claimed "93%" success rate. It would likely be better qualified as Cleveland achieving a 93% success among those prospects who were already successful. (DBGO pg 261) "Meetings in Cleveland evolved somewhat differently from those in Akron. "We opened with an audible prayer," said Clarence S. "The speaker, who was chosen four weeks in advance, spoke for 45 minutes, and we closed with the Lord's Prayer. Then, we would reopen for informal comments, questions, and so forth. The total meeting might go on anywhere from one and a half to two hours. No smoking was allowed in the first part of the meeting, only in the informal part." "That's the trouble," Clarence said. "They take it so casually today, I think a little discipline is necessary. I think AA was more effective in those days. Records in Cleveland show that 93 percent of those who came to us never had a drink again. When I discovered that people had slips in AA, it really shook me up. Today it's all watered down so much. Anyone can wander in now." (DBGO pg 263) The active or even recently active alcoholic was definitely not welcome at early meetings in Cleveland. In September 1940, Clarence wrote Bill that "several groups do not permit a rummy to attend unless he has been hospitalized or talked to by ten men." Clarence noted that they then had a "definite setup" with three hospitals and two sanitariums, and that there were ten to 15 hospitalized at all times. By January 1941, requirements had eased up - slightly. Clarence wrote that "most groups" required either hospitalization, being talked by a least five members, or being passed by a committee before a new person could attend meetings. In Youngstown, it was usual for two couples to visit the prospective member before he attended his first meeting. The husband would tell the man about AA., and the woman would talk to the wife. "That way, they would know what it was all about when they finally got to AA," said Norman V. Various groups have various distinctions," Clarence wrote. "But the general idea is to try and prepare a fellow and give him a pretty good understanding of the aims and principles of A.A. before he comes to meetings. This eliminates much of the nuisance of entertaining boys under the influence at out meetings." (DBGO pg Earlier in the book, a Cleveland member verifies the prescreening procedure: (DBGO pg 169) "After Clarence talked to me at my home, others would come over and talk to me. They wouldn't let you in a meeting Just by one guy talking to you, as they do now. They felt you should know something about what you were going to hear and the purpose of the program. "Then Clarence made me go to the home of one of the newer members every night for 3 months, and they had nine or ten people taking to me. Then I had to read the Big Book before I went to my first meeting. As a result, I think I had a better understanding of what they were trying to do". A similar reference can be found in "Slaying the Dragon" by William L White, an excerpt summarizes (SD pg 133) As AA completed its developmental separation from the Oxford Group and moved toward publication of the Big Book, other significant but less observable milestones occurred. Rules evolved (rules that were later relaxed) governing when a potential member, known variably as a "prospect," "baby," "pigeon, " "fish," or "suspect," could first attend a meeting. Several Cleveland groups, for example, would not allow any prospective member to attend a meeting until he had either been detoxified in a hospital or talked to by ten members. A Denver Group would not allow prospects to attend meetings until they had taken the Steps. (41) Endnote (41): P., Wally (1995) "But, For the Grace of God...How Intergroups and Central Offices Carried the Message of Alcoholics Anonymous in the 1940s" Wheeling, WV: The Bishop of Books. The Cleveland area groups essentially "cherry picked" those prospects who had already previously achieved recovery, and demonstrated the ability to stay sober. This was a requirement before being allowed to enter the Cleveland AA Fellowship and attend meetings. Classifying this practice as achieving a "93%" success rate, is tantamount to classifying a surgical procedure as successful by only including those who had survived and ignoring or omitting those who didn't. Without an indication of the number of prescreened "unsuccessful" alcoholics who were not allowed to attend Cleveland meetings, the reputed "93%" is so dominantly biased to a demonstrated favorable subset of the prospect population as to be a dubious claim at best. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3369. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Conference approved literature... From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Steve The info below was a previous posting to AAHistoryLovers: I don't believe it's a stretch to suggest that when groups stress that they will allow only Conference-approved literature, they are likely trying to achieve three things: 1. Keep out the proliferation of "recovery" writings that are emanating from more and more varied sources (e.g. Barnes and Noble has a "Recovery" section in their book stores). 2. Ensure that there is no blurring of the distinction between AA and the proliferation of other "12 Step Fellowships." 3. Stay with literature that has been reviewed by a Conference standing committee to ensure that it conforms to AA principles. It would likely be better to use the term "AA literature" instead of "Conference-approved literature" since a fairly substantial body of AA literature is not required to go through the Conference-approval process. Some examples: 1. Grapevine (and its non-English counterparts). 2. Box 459 3. Guidelines (the "yellow sheets") 4. Workbooks (e.g. Archives, PI, CPC, TF and CF service committees) 5. Markings (the GSO Archives newsletter) 6. About AA (PI releases) 7. Directories 8. Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of AA (M-39) 9. Final reports of the General Service Conference 10. Literature published by GSOs other than the US/Canada and AAWS 11. Final reports of the World Service Conference 12. Memento booklets from International Conventions 13. Literature catalogs and flyers (AAWS and Grapevine) 14. Non-English interpretations of books/pamphlets 15. Various and sundry GSO publications called "service pieces." (And I've probably missed others) There is literature, published outside of AA, that is not Conference-approved but which is certainly valuable and beneficial. There are some wonderful historic and spiritual works. If you visit GSO in NY and go the Archives exhibit, you'll see an entire wall of books that are not Conference-approved - which is fine for anyone engaging in serious research. On the other hand there is an awful lot of nonsense, "recovery psycho-babble" and revisionist history that gets published as well. So how do you deal with all of this? I believe most groups draw a line by adopting a guideline to only allow Conference-approved literature. What does GSO have to say on the matter? The information below is a transcription of a service piece (re 15 above) that is included in a packet that is sent to a new group when it registers with GSO. It also appears in a number of service committee kits. CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE Service Material From G.S.O. "Conference-approved"--What It Means to You The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the A.A. Fellowship. The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does not imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read. Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express opinions at every stage of production. How To Tell What Is and What Is Not Conference-approved Look for the statement on books, pamphlets and films: "This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature" All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as "A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. - publishers of Conference-approved literature), and central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The Conference does not disapprove of such material. G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins. Available at Most A.A. Groups Most local A.A. groups purchase and display a representative sampling of Conference-approved pamphlets, and usually carry a supply of hardcover books. Conference-approved literature may be available at central offices and intergroups, or it may be ordered directly from G.S.O. Groups normally offer pamphlets free of charge, and the books at cost. Copyright Conference-approved literature is copyrighted with the Copyright Office, Library of Congress, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. To insure the continued integrity of A.A. literature, and to make sure the A.A. recovery programs will not be distorted or diluted, permission to reprint must be obtained from A.A.W.S. in writing. However, A.A. newsletters, bulletins, or meeting lists have blanket permission to use the material, providing proper credit is given to insure that the copyrights of A.A. literature are protected. The A.A. Preamble is copyrighted by The A.A. Grapevine, Inc. (not by A.A. World Services). Beneath it, these words should appear: Reprinted with permission of the A.A. Grapevine, Inc. The Steps and Traditions should be followed by these words: Reprinted with Permission of A.A. World Services, Inc. 10/93 F-29 (handwritten) Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3370. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Non-Conference approved literature From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 5:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The list of source reference below were used to compile a timeline of AA history that I periodically distribute in AAHistoryLovers. I've read them all more than once and love them. Research and Reference Sources Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, AAWS Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS AA Comes of Age, AAWS As Bill Sees It, AAWS The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B Bill W by Robert Thompson Bill W by Francis Hartigan Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography Children of the Healer, Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by Christine Brewer Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers, AAWS Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Me Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing General Service Conference - Final Reports, AAWS Grapevine Harry Tiebout - the Collected Writings, Hazelden Pittman Press The Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine Inc Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson Mrs Marty Mann, by Sally and David R Brown My Search for Bill W, by Mel B Not God, by Ernest Kurtz (expanded edition) New Wine, by Mel B Pass It On, AAWS The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman, nee AA the Way It Began Sister Ignatia, by Mary C Darrah Slaying the Dragon, by William L White AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service, AAWS Silkworth - the Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, by Dale Mitchell Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery, by Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones and Joan Ziegler Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Stonebraker Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 7:42 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Non-Conference approved literature Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. We make great effort to make these 90 minute sessions interesting. I have learned lot's of interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher, Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung, Rev Shoemaker, Clarence Snyder and all the rest of those early historical participants from non-conference approved materials. Here are listed a few of our current book collection: * EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B. * CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows * DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson, edited by Ellie Van V. * GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing * HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder, By Mitchell K. * SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Mary C. Darrah * NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Ernest Kurtz * BILLW, by Robert Thomsen Here are a few other non-AA history books we use for reference because they were often read by early AA members: * SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox * AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen * THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond But naturally our main source of historical information come from the Conference approved books from GSO . Bob S. ???????????????????????????? -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Lee Nickerson Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:28 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Emmet Fox I surely agree. I was fortunate to be Maine's Archivist for eight years and by what seemed necessity, I began to do the unthinkable - read non-conference approved literature. It enhanced my sobriety and allowed me to do my service job in a much more informative and interesting way. I picked up the habit and have been at it ever since. I just finished a book called Drinking: A Love Story by Caroline Knapp - one of the best personal stories I have read in a long time. As far as AA history goes; Not God, Sister Ignatia:The Angel Of AA, Grateful to Have Been There and so many others have made my journey much more enlightened and joyful. Many of the books I have read were recommended by Frank M. the late alcoholic archivist of GSO. He was a truly sweet gentleman and I miss him to this day. lee --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mel Barger" wrote: > > Hi Matt, > I asked Bill Wilson about Emmet Fox and he said > they even attended his lectures in New York in the > 1930s. He also said they read The Sermon on the > Mount. > > I found my own copy of it in Pontiac, Michigan, in > February, 1951, and have read it ever since. > > Mike E., the second member of AA in Detroit, even > told of reading it while he was still getting well > from his last drunk; he had to rest it on pillow > to hold it steady! > > I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against > literature that isn't conference-approved has > eliminated this any several other good books from > most meetings. I recommend it whenever I can and > sometimes mention it in talks. > > Mel Barger > > ___________________________ > > Note from the moderator: > > See Mel's little article on Emmet Fox at > http://hindsfoot.org/Fox1.html > Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3371. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 6:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There were several documents, records and oral histories involved. Some of the documents involved a commitee which helped pay for hospital stays for those who couldn't afford it. They kept some records as to who the person was, which hospital they were at and how much was paid and/or owed and if it was more than one attempt. There was also records from the hospital committee and a survey of all the early groups compiled by the central committee recording statistician Norm E. with the help of Clarence. Norm compiled a running history of the early groups, who started them the founding members, where they moved to if they did etc. There were also hundreds of group meeting rosters naming members, their addresses, spouses, phone numbers etc. The oral histories came from Clarence, Warren C. (Sr. and Jr) and several old-time Cleveland members. There were a few other documents including the quote from Bill in AACA which stated that Clevlend's results were of the very best. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3372. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 6:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Let me set the record straight. It wasn't called cherry picking and it wasn't just related to Cleveland. In the Big Book, it was written that if the prospect wasn't interested in your solution, waste no more time and move on to the next person. People weren't allowed at first to just attend an AA meeting, they were prospective members. They were visited and given an indoctrination into what AA was. The term sponsor came from the fact that one had to be sponsored into AA just like some unions and country clubs. --- Billy-Bob wrote: > Dick B. claims to have those records in his > archives. This was in Cleveland before the 3rd > tradition was established. Back then AA groups could > screen and cherry pick their members rather than > having to accept anyone how walked through the door > seeking help. > > Billy-Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3373. . . . . . . . . . . . Reading lists for AA study groups From: Joe Adams . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 11:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can you tell us where these films are available for local sharing? Joe Adams (sober_in_nc at yahoo.com) __________________________________________ Robert Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) wrote: Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3374. . . . . . . . . . . . 95% First Year Dropout Myth From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2006 12:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One hand-drawn graph in a paper summarizing the 1977 through 1989 Trennial Surveys has been misread by many people. The myth of a 95% drop-out in the first year comes because it reported the membership length of people who were in their first ever year of Alcoholics Anonymous. The x-axis scale of the graph was the percentage who had been coming for any given number of months, it was not the retention percentage. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2379 My AAHistoryLovers Post 2379 (with added comments by moderator Glenn C) presents the proper reading of the graph. The retention from any month to any other is the ratio of the number of members found. For every 100 people who were in their first year, 19 were in their first month and 5 were in their twelfth. 5 / 19 = 0.26 So 26% remain at the end of their first year. Newcomers often are told, "Try A.A. for three months and decide if you are an alcoholic." About half leave during that "test drive." The Survey found 9 in their fourth month. 5 / 9 = 0.56 So 56% of those staying beyond three months finish the year of their first ever A.A. experience. "If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him." (BB p.31) I want to avoid starting the "real alcoholic" debate again but that is true. Alcoholism is a self-diagnosed malady. A.A.'s shared experience can help a visitor decide for himself if he is an alcoholic. As they say, "Yet." :-) Although some in A.A. want to "save" everyone who walks in the door, there really are drinkers who don't need Alcoholics Anonymous at their first visit. [Sponsors are free to tell their sponsees, "This doesn't apply to you."] :-) There are many reasons someone might not stay for their first full year. It isn't up to us to decide if their reason is or is not valid. * Not alcoholic * Not "alcoholic enough" * "Not ready" * Denial * More an addict than an alcoholic * Discouraged by false claims like 95% Dropout Myth * Life's other pressures * Travel distance * Don't "want what we have" by their perception * Never sober enough to hear the message * Wrong group for them * Other psychological problems * Try recovery by some other means * Move * Die (cause is irrelevant) [Sponsors are free to tell their sponsees, "These don't apply to you either."] :-) _____________________ Tom E Wappingers Falls, NY -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Billy-Bob > ... According to some of AA's own triennnial surveys a good 95 percent > seem to drop out during the first year. That means that about 5 percent > "really try". Which means that if 50% get it right away figure and 75% > get it eventually figures hold true, it means that after all is said and > done that 75% of 5% achieve a lasting sobriety. > > Sincerely, Billy-Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3375. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there AA literature reviews? From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2006 3:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I did a list of aa movies with professional reviews. I, unfortunately, do not have the time to volunteer to head up this project. I would, however, make the time to support it. If someone would volunteer to head up a project like this, I think it would be a very very valuable service. billyk From the moderator: This movie list is an excellent example of good research work. If you have never looked at it, you ought to, because there are some very interesting movies about alcoholism that would be interesting for Alano clubs and fellowship houses to show on Saturday night get-togethers. Go to the AAHistoryLovers message board at:http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and then go to Messages 2926 to 2931 for Billy K.'s six-part AA Movie List. ______________________________ --- Arkie Koehl wrote: > Suggestion from Arkie for the creation of a list > of helpful AA literature, along with comments from > Robert Stonebraker and James Bliss about possible > books to include on that list. > ______________________________ > > Arkie Koehl > (arkie at arkoehl.com) > > This is a fascinating, useful and helpful thread. > > Thanks to all. > > Is there by any chance someplace where such > literature is reviewed by peers, or just AA > historians, so that relative novices like myself > can get a feel for what books are generally > better thought of than others? > > Arkie Koehl > Honolulu > > - - - - - - - - - - - - > On Apr 18, 2006, at 14:42, Robert Stonebraker > wrote: > > Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, > spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - > we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and > sometimes A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's > Home. We make great effort to make these 90 minute > sessions interesting. I have learned lots of > interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher, > Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung, Rev. Shoemaker, Clarence > Snyder and all the rest of those early historical > participants from non-conference approved materials. > > Here are listed a few of our current book collection: > > > * EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B. > > * CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows > > * DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson, > edited by Ellie Van V. > > * GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing > > * HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder, > by Mitchell K. > > * SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, > by Mary C. Darrah > > * NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, > by Ernest Kurtz > > * BILL W, by Robert Thomsen > > Here are a few other non-AA history books we use > for reference because they were often read by early > AA members: > > > * SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox > > * AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen > > * THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond > > But naturally our main source of historical information > comes from the Conference approved books from GSO . > > Bob S. > > ______________________________ > > From: james.bliss@comcast.net > (james.bliss at comcast.net) > > I have been literature chair for both District > and Area and have only seen verbal indications > that we are to encourage Conference Approved > literature. I will attempt to review any > documentation which I have received which may > include this in a written form but I do not > remember having read any. I was asked to talk > during a presentation about 'Carrying the Message' > and was instructed the content was to be about > carrying the message using conference approved > literature. > > Personally, I believe that any material which > is spiritual in nature is acceptable and the Big > Book enforces this idea regarding spiritual > material. I do encourage various conference > approved literature for various reasons: > > Big Book - it is the AA program > 12 and 12 - obvious > Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers - historical perspective > Pass It On - historical perspective > Various guidelines and handbooks depending upon what > service work is being performed > Open/Closed meeting card - good to read at the > respective meeting > Anonymity - both the pamphlet and the brief card - > good to clear up the confusion about exactly what > anonymity is for etc. > > I also recommend many external reading depending > upon the individual and where they are at: > > Sermon on the Mount - Emmet Fox > Fenelon Letters > 24 Hours a Day > The Little Red Book > The Bible - for those member who believe in that > religion > And many other items which I read from recommendations > from friends, religious leaders, browsing in stores. > > My impression from the Big Book is that we should > listen to our spiritual leaders and seek their advice > on what materials we might want to read. To me, > this is about getting and staying sober, not limiting > my reading to a specific publisher. > > Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3376. . . . . . . . . . . . (1) Bill Shoemaker''s Falling Out? (2) Cloth banners. From: hesofine2day . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2006 3:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII (1) A friend told me today that Bill W. and Sam Shoemaker had a falling out at the end of Bill's life...Any information on this? __________________________ (2) We have started a new group in Boynton Beach, Florida, and are trying to find the old cloth banners with the slogans and one that says "But For The Grace Of God." My memory is that they were blue and gold. The "But for.." one was on a dowel with fringe, I think. Are they still around? Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Yours in love and service IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3377. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2006 1:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a popular saying in AA of being wary of "paralysis through analysis." No matter how hard, or innovatively, one attempts to micro-parse a figurative (broad) statement, a literal interpretation of it is typically one of creative invention rather than precise computation. Precision cannot be derived from vagaries. The other factor is if one already has a predetermined answer in mind and only seeks that which supports that answer, it is bias and far more likely to propagate myth rather than uncover or confirm fact. What is the quantitative number "of alcoholics who came to AA" at any particular period of time? Nobody knows, but it was likely substantial and likely remains substantial. In an address to the 1960 General Service Conference, Bill W commented: "I took note", the co-founder pointed out, "that in this generation which has seen AA come alive, this period of 25 years, a vast procession of the world's drunks has passed in front of us and over the precipice. Worldwide, there would appear to have been something like 25 million of them. And out of this stream of despair, illness, misery and death, we have fished out just one in a hundred in the last 25 years." Now does this mean that over 25 years from 1935 to 1960 exactly 25 million drunks "passed in front of" AA just because Bill stated it and it is written in a document? It could have been 15 million or 35 million or whatever. Bill was simply offering a best estimate in his own judgment. There were, and never have been, any records from which to derive the figure - Bill was simply making an estimate not stating a precise fact. If something is written in a foreword to the Big Book, does that endow it with precision and make it a fact? No. It is still simply an estimate. Depending on whose statistics (sadistics) one uses, there is an estimated 14 to 18 million alcoholics in just the United States alone. World-wide AA membership is estimated at a little over 2 million members. Does this disparity in numbers mean that AA is doing something wrong? Absolutely not. It simply illustrates that the magnitude of the problem is the same today as it was in 1935 (perhaps even larger). If most alcoholics responded to offers of help all that easily there would be no need for AA. The nasty problem (and the fatal one) is that most alcoholics do not respond to offers of help. How many of these estimated 14 to 18 million alcoholics in the US alone will be helped by AA? I'd suggest it depends on: 1. Whether they think they are alcoholic or not ("We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery"). 2. Whether they want to be helped and try AA's program of recovery. This does not mean attending meetings (the dessert of AA). It means learning and trying to practice the Steps in their lives (the main course of AA). How many fallen into the "just visiting" or success or failure categories over the years or just this year? There is no way to determine this with precision (or probably anything even approaching reasonableness). AA does not keep these kinds of records and hasn't, except on a very limited basis, since its first few years. Remember that AA's 3rd group didn't start until shortly after the Big Book was published in April 1939 when it was estimated that there were around 100 members (Bill made a comment that twice that number had likely showed up by then). As an experiment, try to determine what the success rate for your home group has been for the past 1 year or 6 months or 3 months. How many prospects showed up? How many gave AA a try (not just observed AA at meetings)? How many succeeded or failed? I'll make a friendly bet of 2 banana splits that you will not be able to come up with an accurate answer (just a "best guess"). Now try to think of determining this for the 100,000+ estimated groups in AA today or the estimated 2,000 groups at the beginning of 1941. It will still just be a "best guess" that no one will be able to prove or disprove. That's the way it was in AA's early years. That's the way it is today. That's the way it's going to be. AA does not keep membership records much less a visitors log. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Billy-Bob Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:50 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob's Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 The claim that 75 percent achieved a lasting sobriety itself seems strangely and ambiguously worded. "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried (an ambiguous qualifier used to eliminate an unknown percentage of people), 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, (this is the category I personally fall into) and among the remainder, (presumably the remaining 25%) those who stayed on with us showed some improvement. (What the heck does this mean? Does this mean the ultimate success rate is higher than 75%? Does this mean they stayed sober for a while but died drunk and consequently were not counted as successes? It's very unclear.) Other thousands (What other thousands? How many other thousands? Does this refer to the ones who didn't really try?) came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't really want the program. But great numbers of these---(Uh excuse me how many?) about two out of three---(Pardon me? two out of three of how many?) began to return as time passed." Really? How do we know they returned as time passed, who was keeping track of their comings and goings? What does Bill mean by "showed improvement?" This statement is simply to vague to be meaningful. BTW, this statement was found in the forward to the Second Edition which reads "Figures given in this foreword describe the Fellowship as it was in 1955." So claims of a 50 to 75 percent success rate seem to be being claimed for this particular time period and not for the time prior to and shortly after the Big Book was published, the so called "flying blind" period as you describe it. If you read the statement very carefully you will find that it makes very little sense and leaves all kinds of questions unanswered. One is left with the very general idea that if you come to A.A. and really try you have a pretty good chance of making it. While this impression might be pretty accurate, and in my experience it is. We still don't know what percentage of people "really try" i.e. make sufficent effort to make it. According to some of AA's own triennnial surveys a good 95 percent seem to drop out during the first year. That means that about 5 percent "really try". Which means that if 50% get it right away figure and 75% get it eventually figures hold true, it means that after all is said and done that 75% of 5% achieve a lasting sobriety. Sincerely, Billy-Bob Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3378. . . . . . . . . . . . FW: Non-Conference approved literature From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2006 4:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder," By Mitchell K. can be downloaded or read at www.4dgroups.org Click Download/links, then right click "Clarence, etc" then click "Open" Bob S. ************************************************ Subject: Non-Conference approved literature Dear AA Friends, Our Fourth Dimension Group's Big Book Step Study in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. We make great effort to make these 90 minute sessions interesting. I have learned lot's of interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher, Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung, Rev Shoemaker, Clarence Snyder and all the rest of those early historical participants from non-conference approved materials. Here are listed a few of our current book collection: * EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B. * CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows * DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson, edited by Ellie Van V. * GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing * HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder, By Mitchell K. * SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Mary C. Darrah * NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Ernest Kurtz * BILL W., by Robert Thomsen Here are a few other non-AA history books we use for reference because they were often read by early AA members: * SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox * AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen * THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond But naturally our main source of historical information come from the Conference approved books from GSO . Bob S. ********************************************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3379. . . . . . . . . . . . Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2006 2:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Having done some reading on Swedenborg's beliefs and understanding of spitituality, I wonder how much Bill W. was in contact with the Swedenborgians? The higher power as we understand him sounds very close to their teachings... Gene in Westchester ------------------------------------------------------------------ This from some of their beliefs: Love Is Life Love, Swedenborg says, is the basic element of reality. It is the source of all life, the essence of God. Our souls are individual finite forms of love, our bodies serving as mirrors of that inner essence. As we live, we choose what kind of love we will be. We may choose to regard ourselves as the only reality--our own needs, desires, and feelings as all important. Or we may choose to focus on others. In the former instance, we shrink in spirit, allowing a part of our potential as loving beings to atrophy. In the latter instance, we grow spiritually, heightening our awareness of the nature of love and thus also of the nature of ourselves and God. Truth Is Love In Action Truth is the way love works. Most of us sense that. Actions we perform out of love are honest actions, genuine expressions in a physical form of what love means, or the truth of love. Swedenborgians feel that ultimately the two are inseparable, a part of the same reality. Actualized love is truth, and hence faith and charity are especially significant in human living. Swedenborg defines faith as a kind of inner sight, a perception of what is true. Charity is founded in the desire to do service and live a useful life, beginning with the choice of career or life work. The spiritual life involves the active development of a useful and meaningful life in service to the betterment of the world as a whole. Whereas the religious life often connotes withdrawal from the world and life, active participation in the world is a commitment to actualizing faith and charity. The life of charity and faith parallel the union of love and truth which is the essence of God. Freedom of the Will Swedenborg emphasizes the responsibility of all people to develop their own beliefs and live their lives accordingly. Without free will in spiritual things the human being can in no wise advance into light, i.e., into truths and goods of the church, or procure himself a life. Without that free will he would not be a human being but only a figure and a phantom. For his thought would be without reflection, consequently without judgment and thus in Divine things which are of the Church he would have no more ability to turn than a door without a hinge, or with one fastened with a bolt of steel. His will, too, would be devoid of decision, hence no more active towards justice or injustice than the stone on the mound under which lies a dead body...." (Coronis, 24 28) An Inner Meaning Within the Bible Swedenborg likens the Spiritual teachings to a parent teaching a child. ... explaining all things according to their genius and capacities, although he himself thinks from an interior or deeper ground. Otherwise it would be like teaching what would not be learned. (Arcana Coelestia, 2533) Thus the scriptures are written on the literal level in plain language expressing the truth and wisdom of God as it is adapted to our limited human understanding. The Bible also contains a deeper meaning, an inner essence, in addition to its obvious and overt meaning. Swedenborg notes in The True Christian Religion: The Word in its essence is spiritual. Descending from Jehovah the Lord, and passing through the angelic heavens, the Divine (in itself unutterable and imperceptible) became level with the perception of angels and finally the perception of man. Hence, the Word has a spiritual sense, which is within the natural, just as the soul is within the body, or as thought is in speech, or volition in action. The belief that all things have an inner reality, as well as an outer manifestation is a significant concept for the whole of Swedenborgian thought. Swedenborgianism This, then, is the living reality of Swedenborg's teachings. In stressing freedom, diversity, and individualism, he issued a challenge to individuals, churches, and other organizations to be committed to the human growth processes and to express their personal commitment in ways as diverse as their numbers. Sensitivity to, and respect for, each individual's "internal church," or spirituality, is what Swedenborgianism is really all about. One primary pathway advocated in the Swedenborgian Church for spiritual growth is a specialized study of scripture, enabling the diligent student to become aware of the inner-penetration of nature and spirit, of our natural world here and the universal spiritual world. In addition, an expanding awareness of spiritual reality is encouraged by the exploration of dreams and by prayer and meditation practices. And perhaps the most popular of Swedenborg's spiritual growth practices is his Zen-like discussions on "being useful." Teilhard de Chardin once said, "Do not forget that the value and interest of life is not so much to do conspicuous (although we have this ambition) as to do ordinary things with the perception of their enormous value." For Swedenborg, such a focus provides the ground for future spiritual growth. As Paul Zacharias, a Swedenborgian minister, observes in his pamphlet This We Believe, "Everyone who lives up to the best he knows, whether Christian, Jew, Moslem, or Pagan, is truly a member of the church Invisible." --------------------------------------------------------------- Now if you have had the patience to get this far... the idea of service...giving of yourself...It's all there. Gene IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3380. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 95% First Year Dropout Myth From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2006 2:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There was also an article in the *Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly* a few years ago that dissected this too widespread fallacy. Perhaps someone can give the exact citation, which I do not have at hand right now? ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3381. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Reading lists for AA study groups From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2006 11:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe A. asked: "Can you tell us where these films are available for local sharing?" I believe "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" is still sold at Dr. Bob's Home and the earlier one, "DAWN OF HOPE," which came from the same place, may be out of circulation. I would suggest you write or check out their website. Both are about 30 minutes long which makes them convenient to play at meetings. Bob S. ?????????? ----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Joe Adams Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:48 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Reading lists for AA study groups Can you tell us where these films are available for local sharing? Joe Adams (sober_in_nc at yahoo.com) __________________________________________ Robert Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) wrote: Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3382. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Hazelden Foundation and book publishing From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2006 5:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bottom line on Hazelden: If it wasn't for them numerous outstanding history books would not be available to the general public (and especially to folks interested in AA history). Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3383. . . . . . . . . . . . A De-Briefer For Treatment Center Graduates From: Glenn . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2006 11:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A friend shared the following passage, but cannot remeber anyting about the book he got it from. Has anybody in this Group heard of this book and have any idea where I could get a copy? The only thing that I presently have is a one page "The Difference between your Sponsor and your Therapist", to help newcomes understand the differance between the complexity of the tratment industry and the simplicity of the Program of Action that has worked best for most ALCOHOLICS for over 70 years. Thanks, Glenn L. Birdsboro, PA, USA "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IS FOR ALCOHOLICS Suffering from a terrible hangover co-founder-to-be Dr. Bob grudgingly consented to engage in a brief conversation with Bill W., an alcoholic stranger from New York. Bill elaborated on his dramatic recovery from alcoholism--the doctor listened for five hours! Dr.Bob especially identified with Bill's battle with the physical allergy to alcohol--and his mental obsession. Hope began to return--the evidence stood before him. Truly, one alcoholic sharing with another (about alcohol) can become fascinating business. If Bill's sharing would have been about drug addiction, or some other terrible problem, the conversation surely would have been short lived. As it were, this incident signals a founding moment of A.A. history. When we identify ourselves as simply "alcoholic" we are abiding with the spirit of our Third and Fifth Traditions. But if we add to it we are indicating that A.A. has an opinion on different outside issues--such as drugs, etc., (see Tradition 10). Besides that, we separate ourselves from our fellow alcoholics. There is no need to do this. This custom came from treatment center rap-sessions--and that's where it should have stayed. A.A. does not compete for membership with members (or potential members) of other 12-Step fellowships. Our co-founder Bill W. has written that he could see no way of making non-alcoholic addicts into A.A. members ("Problems other than Alcohol--Excerpts"). Non- alcoholics are invited to our open meetings for help and inspi rati on, but they will not become members of Alcoholics Anonymous. If you may think you may be an alcoholic, but don't really know, you are welcomed to attend all A.A. meetings. Our Third Tradition states: "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire tostop drinking. In effort to abide by our code of singleness of purpose most A.A. members (both open and closed) request that those in attendance confine their sharing to alcohol related subjects. The mention of other problems is often necessary and, of course, not taboo; but it is easy to see that alcoholic recovery must remain our chief concern. Bill's recovery message to Dr. Bob was from one alcoholic to another alcoholic; it worked! That should never change! Let! us f! orever keep this legacy available for the millions of alcoholics who will desperately need a real alcoholic to help in the years to come. A De-Briefer For Treatment Center Graduates, pages 19and20" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3384. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: conference approved literaure From: archie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2006 11:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE SERVICE MATERIAL FROM G.S.O. Conference-approved--What It Means to You The term Conference-approved describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with A. A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the A.A. Fellowship. The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does not imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read. Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of A.A.'s from all over the United States and Canada read and express opinions at every stage of production. HOW TO TELL WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT CONFERENCE-APPROVED Look for the statement on books, pamphlets and films: "This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature" All A.A. Literature is not Conference-approved Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as A.A. literature. There is no conflict between A.A. World Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. --publishers of Conference-approved literature), and central offices or intergroups--rather they complement each other. The Conference does not disapprove of such material. G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins. AVAILABLE AT MOST A.A. GROUPS Most local A.A. groups purchase and display a representative sampling of Conference-approved pamphlets, and usually carry a supply of hardcover books. Conference-approved literature may be available at central offices and intergroups, or it may be ordered directly from G.S.O. Groups normally offer pamphlets free of charge, and the books at cost. COPYRIGHT Conference-approved literature is copyrighted with the Copyright Office, Library of Congress, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. To insure the continued integrity of A.A. literature, and to make sure the A.A. recovery programs will not be distorted or diluted, permission to reprint must be obtained from A.A.W.S. in writing. However, A.A. newsletters, bulletins, or meeting lists have blanket permission to use the material, providing proper credit is given to insure that the copyrights of A.A. literature are protected. The A.A. Preamble is copyrighted by The A.A. Grapevine, Inc.--(not by A.A. World Services). Beneath it, these words should appear: Reprinted with permission of the A.A. Grapevine, Inc. The Steps and Traditions should be followed by these words: Reprinted with Permission of A.A. World Services, Inc. 10/93 F-29 ---------------------------------------------------------- WHAT CONFERENCE APPROVED MEANS from BOX 4-5-9 (August-September 1978, Vol.23, No. 4 When you see this emblem (omitted) and the words This is A. A. General Conference-approved literature, they mean only one thing. Such a publication represents the broadest possible consensus of A.A. thinking. It is not just one small locality's interpretation, nor the ideas of only one member. As far as humanly possible, the seal says, in effect, this piece reflects the spectrum of opinion of our whole Fellowship. Any such A. A. material has been very carefully prepared under he close scrutiny of the G.S.O staff, of the appropriate trustees and Conference committees, and of our General Service Conference (U.S. and Canada) itself, expressing the group conscience of A. A. as a whole. The reason behind this procedure is simple. It is a way of preserving A.A.'s traditional independence. We are not affiliated with anyone else, and we do not oppose, nor do we endorse, any other ideas. We simply state (that is, publish) our own. It does not mean the Conference disapproves of any other publications. Many local A.A. central offices publish their own meeting lists. A.A. as a whole does not oppose these, any more than A. A. disapproves of the Bible or books on health or any other publications from any source that A.A.'s find helpful. What any A.A. member reads is no business of G.S.O., or of the Conference, naturally. But when you see the emblem shown at the top of this article, (omitted) you can be sure the material has been through often tediously slow, sometimes tortuous screening and revisions by the necessary committees and the Conference. Many groups have found that the place where literature is displayed in the meeting room can be very important. Is it clearly visible? Can newcomers pick up some A.A. literature without feeling conspicuous? It may be even more important that all Conference-approved A.A, material is exhibited clearly separate from any other publications. If new members or visitors see religious or medical pamphlets or other material about alcoholism mixed up with A. A. literature, they can become terribly confused about A.A. We are not affiliated with, nor do we endorse, any viewpoint on alcoholism except our own. But Tradition Six becomes blurred when people see church, health, and A.A. publications all stacked together. How about taking a look at your group's literature display at the next meeting? Pretend you are absolutely new. What impression of A. A. does the literature display give you? -----------------------------------------------------------CONFERENCE APPROVAL A LENGTHY, CAREFUL AND NECESSARY PROCESS When the 55th General Service Conference convenes in April, several of its standing committee agendas will call for approving or developing new and revised pieces of literature. The Literature Committee will look at proposed revisions of three pamphlets, as well as one idea for a new one. The Correctional Facilities, Public Information, and Report and Charter committees also have literature items on their agendas. At the end of the week, the Conference may recommend that some projects be carried to the next stage of development, that some not be pursued any further, and that some be approved. Those that are approved by the full Conference carry the words This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature. This phrase means that a pamphlet or book reflects the widest possible spectrum of A.A. experience and that it maintains the integrity of the A.A. message. Achieving those goals requires a lengthy (two years or more), painstaking, even laborious process. It begins with a need widely expressed by the Fellowship. Sometimes, the call for a new piece of literature will be heard from many directions, as were requests for a fourth edition of the Big Book. At other times, though, the idea will start small, possibly with only one member or one group sending a request to the General Service Office. Since the ideas of a few do not necessarily reflect the needs of a majority of members, these requests rarely reach the agenda of a Conference committee right away. Instead, they follow a tried and true path through the service structure, designed to widen the group conscience with every step and ensure that by the time a proposal reaches the Conference body, a significant number of members believe it should be considered by the entire Fellowship. A member who sees a need for a new pamphlet or book often takes it to his or her home group for discussion. If the group decides it has merit, the G.S.R. forwards the request to the district meeting for discussion, and if the district is in favor, the D.C.M. forwards it to the area assembly for even wider consideration. From there, the area delegate sends it on to the General Service Office and the G.S.O. staff forwards it to the appropriate trustees' committee. Eventually, the item may be placed on the agenda of a Conference committee. In order to become an Advisory Action, any committee recommendation must pass the Conference with substantial unanimity--defined as a two-thirds majority. To reach substantial unanimity, floor discussion may take a very short time or go on for hours. Ideally, all Conference members, whether or not they agree with the final decision, will be satisfied that they have been heard and a genuine consensus has been reached. The A.A. Service Manual describes how it happens: Before a vote is taken, plenty of time is allotted for full discussion, including questions about the background of a recommendation and the committee's reasons for coming to its conclusions Discussions, both in general sessions and during committee meetings, can at times be hot and heavy, but Conference members always try to reach a group conscience and to make decisions in the best interests of the Fellowship. After the vote, the Conference chairperson calls for minority opinions and occasionally, a well-reasoned minority opinion can result in another vote, reversing the first decision. Once the Conference has voted for approval, the project is turned over to the G.S.O. publications department for final editing, type-setting, design and printing. The publications department is an integral part of the process at every stage, working with the G.S.O. staff to prepare material for distribution to Conference members, overseeing any preliminary editing that might need to be done, finding writers when needed (A.A. members with solid sobriety and strong professional experience), working with them to prepare manuscripts, and implementing any changes suggested by the Conference. Sometimes, a book or pamphlet can take a long time to come to fruition. Take as an example the pamphlet Can A.A. Help Me, Too? for African-American alcoholics, approved by the Conference in 2001. The idea came up originally in 1970, with proposal for a cartoon book for black alcoholics, but its time had not come, and it was turned down by the Conference. The need came to the fore again in the 1990s and in 1998 a proposal for a pamphlet directed to the Black/African American alcoholic came from a group, went through the district and area assembly, was passed on to the General Service Office by the delegate, and placed on the Conference agenda. The 1999 Conference recommended that a draft be prepared and brought to the 2000 Conference for consideration. The trustees' Literature Committee appointed a subcommittee to work on the project, and a call for stories by black alcoholics went out to all Conference members. Meanwhile, the pamphlet engendered some lively discussion and while the majority of groups were in favor, there was also some strong opposition from members who felt that publication of such a pamphlet would set black alcoholics apart, rather than making them a part of A.A. Others, however, pointed out that the goal was to inform and attract still-suffering black alcoholics who needed to know that African Americans were sober, active members of the Fellowship. By the end of 1999, the subcommittee had received 34 stories and selected 14 to pass on to the G.S.O. publications department for editing. Because of the time needed to collect the stories, it was not possible to have a draft ready for the 2000 Conference, which received a progress report. After input from the Conference, the editing proceeded and in addition to numerous revisions, two new stories were added. The final draft went to the 2001 Conference, which approved the Literature Committee's recommendation for publication. Conference approval means that a piece of literature carries the A.A. message and represents a good cross section of the Fellowship. Equally significant, though, is what it does not mean. It does not imply criticism or dis-approval of any other publications, whether published by A.A. or outside the Fellowship. For example, many inter-groups and central offices publish material such as meeting lists and other informational leaflets for local members. These publications are genuine A.A. literature, because they provide a necessary service to members and reflect the experience of A.A.'s in the local community. Service material published by G.S.O. informational pieces and guidelines do not go through Conference approval, though they contain shared experience from a good cross section of the Fellowship and often incorporate excerpts from Conference-approved publications. And because it would be impossible to put each issue of periodicals such as Box 4-5-9, other G.S.O. bulletins, or the A.A. Grapevine through a two-year procedure, these too are not Conference approved, though the Conference has long recognized them as A.A. literature. Telling A.A. members what to read and not to read is clearly not the business of the Conference. But when new members search out the group literature table at their first meeting, when middle-timers have questions, when old-timers want to widen their knowledge and understanding, the words "This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature" on a piece of literature assures them that the message has been the result of several group conscience decisions--the ultimate authority for A.A. literature. BOX 4-5-9, APRIL-MAY 2005 A.S.A.P. Always Say A Prayer IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3385. . . . . . . . . . . . Success vs. Gloom-and-Doom From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2006 3:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See Excerpt from the "The Exact Quote..." Thread Below: -------------- No More Myths: Let's be sure nobody takes this statement by Bill W and trumpets, "Hah! See. A one percent success rate." (I've seen it done.) That's not what it means at all! Visionary: Like someone introducing a new product, Bill was looking at how many prospects were not reached and offers a number to emphasize, "If we keep on going there is little doubt that much good will result, but the surface of the problem would hardly be scratched." In saying that "a vast procession of the world's drunks has passed in front of us ... 25 million of them," he is putting forward an image of how important A.A. can be. Most Never Came to A.A.: The 25 million alcoholics he speaks of died somewhere in the world in the 25 years Alcoholics Anonymous had been around. Only a very few came "through the doors of A.A.." A "mind experiment, " as Albert Einstein suggests, proves that. For all 25 million of them to visit exactly one meeting of one group, the average group would have hosted 300+ per year. For each of them to talk with exactly one A.A. member, the average member would have talked with 15 per year. As the robot on Lost In Space would say, "That does not compute." :-) Reasoning: My calculation is based on an estimated 75,000 group-years. (I added up the annual census of groups for first 25 years.) Similarly, it is based on an estimated 1,600,0000 member-years (I added up the annual census of members for first 25 years.) Think about it. It makes sense. :-) History Challenge: Can anyone find the source of Bill's estimate of 25 million of the worlds drunks? It sounds to me like some agency may have estimated "one million per year" and Bill multiplied that by 25 years. That is just a guess. Some other historian may have a real answer. ____________________ En2joy! Tom En2ger -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "ArtSheehan" > > What is the quantitative number "of alcoholics who came to AA" at any > particular period of time? Nobody knows, but it was likely substantial > and likely remains substantial. In an address to the 1960 General > Service Conference, Bill W commented: > > "I took note", the co-founder pointed out, "that in this generation > which has seen AA come alive, this period of 25 years, a vast > procession of the world's drunks has passed in front of us and over > the precipice. Worldwide, there would appear to have been something > like 25 million of them. And out of this stream of despair, illness, > misery and death, we have fished out just one in a hundred in the > last 25 years." > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3386. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 95% First Year Dropout Myth From: Billlwhite@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2006 2:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernie, The article you refer to was written by Don McIntyre and appeared in Volume 18, Number 4, 2000, issue of Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly, pp. 1-18.. The title was "How well does A.A. work? An Analysis of published A.A. surveys (1968-1996) and related analyses/comments. Bill White In a message dated 4/23/2006 3:57:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kurtzern@umich.edu writes: There was also an article in the *Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly* a few years ago that dissected this too widespread fallacy. Perhaps someone can give the exact citation, which I do not have at hand right now? ernie kurtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3387. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Reading lists for AA study groups From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2006 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If anyone can make it to the National Archives Workshop (or knows someone who is going) there is a chance that "A House Full of Miracles" might be available there for purchase. That's where I picked up my copies a few years ago when it was first aired. It was described then as being intended to be a pilot production for a more expanded video targeted to a History Channel, AandE or PBS viewing audience. Also, the revised (and previous) "Markings On the Journey" videos from GSO Archives are wonderful and informative works. I believe the first version of "Markings on the Journey" was not Conference-approved. The video "My Name is Bill W" is also a great film. It has one notable historical inaccuracy (probably for poetic license and time restraints) of showing Ebby and Bill working and drinking together in New York City prior to the stock market collapse in the great economic depression. Ebby lived in Albany, NY (and Vermont) and, with a very notable exception regarding an airplane flight from Albany to Vermont, he and Bill did not do all that much drinking together. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Stonebraker Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 10:32 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Reading lists for AA study groups Joe A. asked: "Can you tell us where these films are available for local sharing?" I believe "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" is still sold at Dr. Bob's Home and the earlier one, "DAWN OF HOPE," which came from the same place, may be out of circulation. I would suggest you write or check out their website. Both are about 30 minutes long which makes them convenient to play at meetings. Bob S. ?????????? ----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Joe Adams Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:48 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Reading lists for AA study groups Can you tell us where these films are available for local sharing? Joe Adams (sober_in_nc at yahoo.com) __________________________________________ Robert Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) wrote: Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3388. . . . . . . . . . . . Panel 37 From: theresa . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2006 12:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all! I'm new to this group,and was wondering if there is anywhere I could get(or read) a copy of the General Service Conference report from panel 37('87-'88)? I volunteered to share on concept five at next months area meeting,and heard and interesting concept five story that involves that panel.I have a list of our past delegates,but that particular one is no longer with us. I love all the contributions to this group,it's taught me alot already.Thanks, Theresa IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3389. . . . . . . . . . . . link for directions to Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills, N.Y. From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2006 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here from the Stepping Stones web site is a link for "mapquest" directions to Bill and Lois' house... http://www.steppingstones.org/map.ivnu Near Katonah, N.Y. Rt 684 is the big highway close by...easy to get to... Plan on coming.... Gene in Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3390. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2006 9:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi We need to encourage folks to visit the AAHistoryLovers web site and take advantage of the search function for perusing through past posting on subjects. There is much in the archives that is of interest to this question. Lois Wilson's paternal grandfather, Nathan Clarke Burnham, practiced law, medicine and was also a minister of the Swedenborgian Church. He wrote a book "Discrete Degrees" about the relation Swedenborg had found between the spiritual and natural life. On January 24, 1918, spurred by rumor that Bill W might soon go overseas (World War I duty) he and Lois were married at the Swedenborgian Church of the New Jerusalem in Brooklyn, NY. The wedding date was originally Feb 1. Lois' brother Rogers Burnham was best man. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:26 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Was Bill a Swedenborgian? Having done some reading on Swedenborg's beliefs and understanding of spitituality, I wonder how much Bill W. was in contact with the Swedenborgians? The higher power as we understand him sounds very close to their teachings... Gene in Westchester ------------------------------------------------------------------ This from some of their beliefs: Love Is Life Love, Swedenborg says, is the basic element of reality. It is the source of all life, the essence of God. Our souls are individual finite forms of love, our bodies serving as mirrors of that inner essence. As we live, we choose what kind of love we will be. We may choose to regard ourselves as the only reality--our own needs, desires, and feelings as all important. Or we may choose to focus on others. In the former instance, we shrink in spirit, allowing a part of our potential as loving beings to atrophy. In the latter instance, we grow spiritually, heightening our awareness of the nature of love and thus also of the nature of ourselves and God. Truth Is Love In Action Truth is the way love works. Most of us sense that. Actions we perform out of love are honest actions, genuine expressions in a physical form of what love means, or the truth of love. Swedenborgians feel that ultimately the two are inseparable, a part of the same reality. Actualized love is truth, and hence faith and charity are especially significant in human living. Swedenborg defines faith as a kind of inner sight, a perception of what is true. Charity is founded in the desire to do service and live a useful life, beginning with the choice of career or life work. The spiritual life involves the active development of a useful and meaningful life in service to the betterment of the world as a whole. Whereas the religious life often connotes withdrawal from the world and life, active participation in the world is a commitment to actualizing faith and charity. The life of charity and faith parallel the union of love and truth which is the essence of God. Freedom of the Will Swedenborg emphasizes the responsibility of all people to develop their own beliefs and live their lives accordingly. Without free will in spiritual things the human being can in no wise advance into light, i.e., into truths and goods of the church, or procure himself a life. Without that free will he would not be a human being but only a figure and a phantom. For his thought would be without reflection, consequently without judgment and thus in Divine things which are of the Church he would have no more ability to turn than a door without a hinge, or with one fastened with a bolt of steel. His will, too, would be devoid of decision, hence no more active towards justice or injustice than the stone on the mound under which lies a dead body...." (Coronis, 24 28) An Inner Meaning Within the Bible Swedenborg likens the Spiritual teachings to a parent teaching a child. .. explaining all things according to their genius and capacities, although he himself thinks from an interior or deeper ground. Otherwise it would be like teaching what would not be learned. (Arcana Coelestia, 2533) Thus the scriptures are written on the literal level in plain language expressing the truth and wisdom of God as it is adapted to our limited human understanding. The Bible also contains a deeper meaning, an inner essence, in addition to its obvious and overt meaning. Swedenborg notes in The True Christian Religion: The Word in its essence is spiritual. Descending from Jehovah the Lord, and passing through the angelic heavens, the Divine (in itself unutterable and imperceptible) became level with the perception of angels and finally the perception of man. Hence, the Word has a spiritual sense, which is within the natural, just as the soul is within the body, or as thought is in speech, or volition in action. The belief that all things have an inner reality, as well as an outer manifestation is a significant concept for the whole of Swedenborgian thought. Swedenborgianism This, then, is the living reality of Swedenborg's teachings. In stressing freedom, diversity, and individualism, he issued a challenge to individuals, churches, and other organizations to be committed to the human growth processes and to express their personal commitment in ways as diverse as their numbers. Sensitivity to, and respect for, each individual's "internal church," or spirituality, is what Swedenborgianism is really all about. One primary pathway advocated in the Swedenborgian Church for spiritual growth is a specialized study of scripture, enabling the diligent student to become aware of the inner-penetration of nature and spirit, of our natural world here and the universal spiritual world. In addition, an expanding awareness of spiritual reality is encouraged by the exploration of dreams and by prayer and meditation practices. And perhaps the most popular of Swedenborg's spiritual growth practices is his Zen-like discussions on "being useful." Teilhard de Chardin once said, "Do not forget that the value and interest of life is not so much to do conspicuous (although we have this ambition) as to do ordinary things with the perception of their enormous value." For Swedenborg, such a focus provides the ground for future spiritual growth. As Paul Zacharias, a Swedenborgian minister, observes in his pamphlet This We Believe, "Everyone who lives up to the best he knows, whether Christian, Jew, Moslem, or Pagan, is truly a member of the church Invisible." --------------------------------------------------------------- Now if you have had the patience to get this far... the idea of service...giving of yourself...It's all there. Gene Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3391. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: Hugh D. Hyatt . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2006 12:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As a lifelong 4th-generation practicing Swedenborgian with 13+ years of sobriety and and almost as many in active service to A.A., I agree that many aspects of A.A.'s program are remarkably similar to some of the primary tenets of Swedenborgianism. On the other hand, much as I would like to conclude otherwise, it seems clear to me that Bill W. was little affected by Swedenborg's teachings, despite being married in a Swedenborgian church in New York City into an established Swedenborgian family. He struggled with issues whose resolution would be obvious -- at least intellectually -- to almost any serious Swedenborgian. I must also note that other Swedenborgian alcoholics disagree with me, but I conclude it's due to well-meaning but wishful thinking on their part. Gene is alleged to have written, on or about 22-Apr-06 14:26: > > Having done some reading on Swedenborg's beliefs and understanding of > spitituality, I wonder how much Bill W. was in contact with the > Swedenborgians? > > The higher power as we understand him sounds very close to their > teachings... > > Gene in Westchester -- Hugh H. Bryn Athyn, PA USA Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. -- Ronald Reagan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3392. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2006 5:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Gene: You raise an interesting point since I cannot recall any remarks in anything I've read about Bill regarding his thoughts about the BUrnham's relgious background as Swendengorgians. Since he and Lois lived so many years in Dr. Burnhams' home I can only assume that they talked about Dr. Burnhams ideas and beliefs. Les IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3393. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 95% First Year Dropout Myth From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2006 11:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I wish I could see the article Bill White refers to. Is it possible that it might be on the Internet for easy downloading? I've often wondered about these statistics that don't paint a very good picture of AA's success rate. I do know that we get lots of people who just drop in and then drop out right away, but I think the recovery rate becomes far better among those who stick around for at least a year and give it a real college try. Mel Barger ___________________________________ From the moderator: Mel, Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas) and Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, New York) are currently putting together the most complete study I have seen on AA success statistics, both early and modern. From the draft version of that study, we can see that the AA Triennial Survey figures show that 53% of the newcomers drop out before they get to their fourth month. But 56% of those who get into their fourth month, make it to the end of the year. That totally backs up your observations, which are based, of course, on 56 years of experience in AA, and seeing what actually happens. That is not too bad, because that is an overall 26% success rate measured over the first year. How well do people do after their first year? Pretty good, it turns out, and it seems to be getting better and better. We're doing twice as well now as we were back in 1977. At this point, 50% of the people who attend AA meetings in the US and Canada have anywhere from 5 to 60 years of sobriety. In 1977: 37% of the people attending AA meetings were in their first year, 38% had between 1 and 5 years in the program, and 25% had 5 to 60 years in the program. In 2004: 26% of the people attending AA meetings were in their first year, 24% had between 1 and 5 years in the program, and 50% had 5 to 60 years in the program. More and more AA members are achieving long term sobriety. As a result, in 1977 the average AA member had 4 years sobriety, whereas in 2004 the average had risen to over 8 years sobriety. To interject my own opinion on one aspect of these figures, I believe that many of the changes that have been made in AA between 1935 and the present, have been made in order to improve long term sobriety. AA teaching is based, not on airy theological or psychological theories, but on concrete experiential evidence and pragmatic observation. In 1939, nobody really knew how the program had to be structured to achieve 5 years of sobriety, because nobody had that much. By 1955, there were some people who had achieved up to 20 years of sobriety, and these people had learned valuable things from their experience. They weren't stupid. They understood the program a whole lot better at 20 years of sobriety than they had at 3 and a half years of sobriety. Some of the things that looked like good ideas back in 1937 or 38, had been proven to be not really good ideas if you wanted people to obtain 20 or more years of sobriety. Even though I have always believed that AA needs to keep in contact with its Historic Heritage (back during its first 30 years) in order to maintain its vitality, in fact, a serious argument can be made that modern AA does a better job in some ways than early AA. I never thought I would write these words (gasp!), but look at those statistics above. On the other hand, maybe part of this increase in our ability to keep people sober for longer and longer times, comes from the fact that we of today have a whole shelf of useful books about early AA history to help us, written by people like Mel Barger (with a grateful tip of my hat to you), Mary Darrah, Sally Brown, Ernie Kurtz, Bill Pittman, Robert Fitzgerald, William Borchert, and so on. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3395. . . . . . . . . . . . "A House Full of Miracles" From: Fritz689 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2006 8:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If anyone is interested in obtaining a copy of "A House Full of Miracles" send me (Fritz689@adelphia.net) your pertinent information and I can make arrangements for your copy to be sent to you. All proceeds from copies of this film go to the Dr. Bob's House Foundation. I live a short distance from Dr. Bob's in Akron and visit there often, enjoying the opportunity to help others enjoy what I have found there. Gratefully Yours, Fred Ings 2404 E. 29th St. Lorain, Ohio 44055 ______________________________ Robert Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) wrote: Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3396. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there AA literature reviews? aa bibliography site From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2006 1:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII my site www.aabibliography.com is just exactly this type of site look for the beginners book list page you can print it in pdf http://www.aabibliography.com/beginnersbooks.htm LD Pierce aa history nut dallas tx IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3397. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob Ps Exit Letter... From: erb2b . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2006 3:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HI.. Im in an interesting club here in Minnesota these days. I"d like to post a copy of Bob Pearsons our former (General Manager at GSO) letter about "Rigidity" in AA in it. Since i have retired from Archives International i have put my archives away but need a copy of Bobs letter. Would some please email that to me? Thanks!! Corey F. (erb2b at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3398. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hazelden Foundation and book publishing From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2006 4:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This should shed some more light without me explaining. This is from Writers Market, a service for authors and writers: About HAZELDEN PUBLISHING AND EDUCATIONAL SERVICES: Hazelden is a trade, educational and professional publisher specializing is psychology, self-help, and spiritual books that help enhance the quality of people's lives. Products include gift books, curriculum, workbooks, audio and video, computer-based products, and wellness products. "We specialize in books on addiction/recovery, spirituality/personal growth, and prevention topics related to chemical and mental health." Freelance Facts: Established: 1954 Publishes trade paperback originals and educational materials (videos, workbooks, pamphlets, etc.) for treatment centers, schools, hospitals, and correctional institutions. Publishes 100 titles/year. Receives 2,500 queries/year. Receives 2,000 manuscripts/year. 30% of books from first time authors. 50% of books from unagented writers. Pays 8% royalty on retail price Offers variable advance. Peace, Danny S IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3399. . . . . . . . . . . . How did Ebby know that Bill W. was in such trouble? From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2006 8:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi History lovers, Can anyone tell us how Ebby Thacher learned that Bill Wilson was in trouble with his drinking? Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3400. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2006 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This thread prompts me to ask a question that has been on my mind for some time, which is about Bill's mother, Emily Wilson, and her studies in osteopathic medicine. I have not been able to learn much about the specific course of her study in Boston, or about how she might have communicated her ideas to Bill later in life. But there are overlaps between osteopathy and not only Swedenborgianism but also (and perhaps more directly) the mind-cure and New Thought religions that flourished in Boston in the late 19th century. Dick B. has written some about early AA's connections to New Thought, but I wonder if there is much informaton available about Emily Wilson's training in osteopathy, her exposure to New Thought and other Swedenborgian-derived philosophies in Boston, and any communications she might've had with Bill on these topics? Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3401. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: link for directions to Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills, N.Y. From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2006 9:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please note that the correct address is Katonah, not Bedford Hills. The AA literature indicates that Bill and Lois lived in Bedford Hills. If you drive around Bedford Hills, you'll see some nice houses and trees, but you won't find Stepping Stones. Katonah is the next town. john lee Gene wrote: Here from the Stepping Stones web site is a link for "mapquest" directions to Bill and Lois' house... http://www.steppingstones.org/map.ivnu Near Katonah, N.Y. Rt 684 is the big highway close by...easy to get to... Plan on coming.... Gene in Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3402. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did Ebby know that Bill W. was in such trouble? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2006 8:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mel Barger and Les Cole ___________________________________ FROM: "Mel Barger" (melb at accesstoledo.com) Hi Trixie, The information I had was that Ebby, while staying at Calvary Mission, had visited friends in Wall Street offices and was told about Bill's situation. We can assume that these were friends both Ebby and Bill had known in better days. Ebby, though sober only two or three months, then called Lois and was invited to come over, though she might not have told Bill about the call. That resulted in Ebby's dropping in on Bill and finding him in a very drunken condition, as related in Bill's Story in the Big Book. Ebby stayed sober for 2-1/2 years and then drank again in 1937. He had frequent troubles for a number of years, though he was also employed at times and did well for short stretches. In 1953, an AA friend bought him an airline ticket for Dallas, where he was treated at Searcey W.'s clinic. He stayed in Texas until 1961 and reportedly had his longest period of sobriety there. As the author of "Ebby: The Man Who Sponsored Bill W.," I felt considerable gratitude for Ebby's action in helping Bill, which benefited all of us. He had many personal demons to battle, but he did succeed at various times. He was sober the last 2-1/2 years of his life and received excellent care from Mickey and Margaret McPike, who treated alcoholics in a comfortable old farmhouse near Galway, New York. He died in 1966. Mel Barger ___________________________________ FROM: "LES COLE" (elsietwo at msn.com) Hello trixiebella.... I'm sure that many in the group will answer you in depth, but the simple answer is that they were lifelong drinking buddies. Each knew the other's problems. There are details in PASS IT ON and other books. Les C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3403. . . . . . . . . . . . MYSQL project venture From: Jim . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2006 12:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For the benefit of group members who maintain AA history web sites and web sites which provide AA reference sources: Hi Group! I'd like to add a feature to silkworth.net that requires knowledge of MYSQL, which I have none, though I have attempted in the past to no avail.I'd like to give the visitor to silkworth.net the ability to add, update, edit files to specific files/categories, such as general AA history (pre, past, present andamp; possible future), local/regional/etc..aa histories, AA legalities and the like, to name just a few.I just don't know how to do the initial setup with MYSQL. The software is considered freeware/GNU, and I have already downloaded it to my machine - not yet uploaded to the server. I would like to set it up similar to this site with same functions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Francis_of_Assisialong with the search feature. I have no idea how much is involved in such a venture.Is there anyone in the group who has knowledge of MYSQL and would be willing to help me out with this? Or possibly fill me in on the positives/negatives - why I should or should not pursue this? Ever Grateful,Jim M,Winston-Salem, North Carolinahttp://silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3404. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bob Ps Exit Letter... From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2006 7:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cory, would this be what your looking for? Joe N. 1986 GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE CLOSING TALK by Bob Pearson At the closing brunch on Saturday morning, Bob Pearson (G.S.O. senior adviser), who is retiring early next year, gave a powerful and inspiring closing talk (excerpted below) to the 36th Conference. (This talk was rescheduled from Friday afternoon.) Our greatest danger: rigidity This is my 18th General Service Conference - the first two as a director of the Grapevine and A.A.W.S., followed by four as a general service trustee. In 1972, I rotated out completely, only to be called back two years later as general manager of G.S.O., the service job I held until late 1984. Since the 1985 International Convention, of course, I have been senior adviser. This is also my last Conference, so this is an emotionally charged experience. I wish I had time to express my thanks to everyone to whom I am indebted for my sobriety and for the joyous life with which I have been blessed for the past nearly 25 years. But since this is obviously impossible, I will fall back on the Arab saying that Bill quoted in his last message, "I thank you for your lives." For without your lives, I most certainly would have no life at all, much less the incredibly rich life I have enjoyed. Let me offer my thoughts about A.A.'s future. I have no truck with those bleeding deacons who decry every change and view the state of the Fellowship with pessimism and alarm. On the contrary, from my nearly quarter-century's perspective, I see A.A. as larger, healthier, more dynamic, faster growing, more global, more service-minded, more back-to-basics, and more spiritual - by far - than when I came through the doors of my first meeting in Greenwich, Connecticut, just one year after the famous Long Beach Convention. A.A. has flourished beyond the wildest dreams of founding members, though perhaps not of Bill himself, for he was truly visionary. I echo those who feel that if this Fellowship ever falters or fails, it will not be because of any outside cause. No, it will not be because of treatment centers or professionals in the field, or non- Conference-approved literature, or young people, or the dually-addicted, or even the "druggies" trying to come to our closed meetings. If we stick close to our Traditions, Concepts, and Warranties, and if we keep an open mind and an open heart, we can deal with these and any other problems that we have or ever will have. If we ever falter and fail, it will be simply because of us. It will be because we can't control our own egos or get along well enough with each other. It will be because we have too much fear and rigidity and not enough trust and common sense. If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A. today, I would have to answer: the growing rigidity the increasing demand for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; pressure for G.S.O. to "enforce" our Traditions; screening alcoholics at closed meetings; prohibiting non- Conference-approved literature, i.e., "banning books"; laying more and more rules on groups and members. And in this trend toward rigidity, we are drifting farther and farther away from our co- founders. Bill, in particular, must be spinning in his grave, for he was perhaps the most permissive person I ever met. Bob Pearson (senior adviser) _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erb2b Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:42 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bob Ps Exit Letter... HI.. Im in an interesting club here in Minnesota these days. I"d like to post a copy of Bob Pearsons our former (General Manager at GSO) letter about "Rigidity" in AA in it. Since i have retired from Archives International i have put my archives away but need a copy of Bobs letter. Would some please email that to me? Thanks!! Corey F. (erb2b at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3405. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2006 8:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Hugh From what I can glean from readings, I'd conjecture that Bill was a "closet Christian." I don't mean to sound flippant but I don't know how else to describe him in this area. Dr Bob was an Episcopalian. In 1947 Bill W took instructions in the Catholic faith from Monsignor (later Bishop) Fulton J Sheen. Bill was introduced to Bishop Sheen by Fulton and Grace Oursler. Oursler, who wrote "The Greatest Story Ever Told" and Bill became very close friends and likely shared the same respect for Christianity in general. Bill's instructions by Sheen lasted for about a year after which Bill lost interest. My sense (more a guess) is that Bill was strongly motivated by public relations considerations to not directly associate with a specific denomination. There are aspects of the AA program that really encompass the common and altruistic threads of all religious denominations - except AA folks insist on using the term "spiritual" instead of "religious" as if "religious" was a pejorative. In regards to Swedenborgianism my guess is that Lois W would be a more fruitful candidate for investigation than Bill given her grandfather's influence. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3407. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: link for directions to Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills, N.Y. From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2006 7:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I know of several instances in New England where one's mailing address is a different town than where one lives. My family's summer camp is in the Town of Derby but the mailing address is Newport. I am told by someone who lived there that Bedford Hills, Bedford Village, and Katonah are all in the Town of Bedford. What town are Stepping Stones taxes paid to? Tommy H in Baton Rouge At 20:09 4/26/2006 , John Lee wrote: >Please note that the correct address is Katonah, not Bedford Hills. The AA >literature > indicates that Bill and Lois lived in Bedford Hills. If you drive > around Bedford Hills, you'll see some nice houses and trees, but you > won't find Stepping Stones. Katonah is the next town. > john lee > >Gene wrote: > Here from the Stepping Stones web site is a link for "mapquest" >directions to Bill and Lois' house... > >http://www.steppingstones.org/map.ivnu > >Near Katonah, N.Y. Rt 684 is the big highway close by...easy to get >to... > >Plan on coming.... >Gene in Westchester [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3408. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration, W.Long Branch NJ, 7/22/06 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2006 10:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You are cordially invited to the third annual Dr. Silkworth birthday celebration! Saturday, July 22, 2006 at 3:00PM (rain date July 29, 2006) At his gravesite in Glenwood Cemetery, Route 71 (Monmouth Rd.), West Long Branch NJ. Speakers: Barbara Silkworth (a family member) and Mitchell K. (author of "How It Worked - The Story of Clarence H. Snyder and the Early Days of AA in Cleveland") Dr. William Duncan Silkworth is the author of the two letters in the "Doctor 's Opinion" in the Big Book "Alcoholics Anonymous" and is known as a friend to millions of alcoholics worldwide. He worked with Bill Wilson, AA's co-founder in N.Y.C., after Bill finally got sober in 1934. He gave deep understanding and great encouragement to an infant society in the days when a lack of understanding or a word of discouragement might easily have killed it. He freely risked his professional reputation to champion an unprecedented spiritual answer to the medical enigma and the human tragedy of alcoholism. Without his blessing, our faith might well have died in its birth. He was a luminous exception to the rule that only an alcoholic understands an alcoholic. He knew us better than we knew ourselves, better than we know each other. Many of us felt that his medical skill, great as that was, was not at all the full measure of his stature. Dr. Silkworth was something that it is difficult even to mention in these days. He was a saintly man. He stood in an unusual relationship to truth. He was able to see the truth of a man, when that truth was deeply hidden from the man himself and from everyone else. He was able to save lives that were otherwise beyond help of any kind. Such a man cannot really die. We wish to honor this man, a gentle doctor with white hair and china blue eyes. Dr. Silkworth lived on Chelsea Avenue in Long Branch, attended Long Branch High School where he has been inducted in that school's Hall of Fame, graduated from Princeton University, and lived for a while in Little Silver. He was born on July 22, 1873 and died on March 22, 1951. PLEASE BE SURE TO BRING A LAWN CHAIR OR SOMETHING TO SIT ON. If you have any questions please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell). Directions: Take the Garden State Parkway (north or south) to Exit 105 (Route 36), continue on Route 36 approximately 2.5 to 3 miles through 5 traffic lights (passing Monmouth Mall, two more shopping plazas, and several automobile dealerships). Watch for green road signs stating "Route 71 South, West Long Branch and Asbury Park" (this is before the sixth light). Take this turnoff to the right, past Carriage Square and bear right onto Route 71 (Monmouth Road.) Glenwood Cemetery appears very quickly on the left. The entrance is marked by two stone pillars and the name. Once inside the cemetery, bear left, go up the hill and make the first right (a hard right). The gravesite is near the first tree on the right. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3409. . . . . . . . . . . . How did Ebby know that Bill W. was in such trouble? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2006 5:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mel, I remember Clancy, in one of his talks, indicating that Ebby's visit to Bill was generated by Ebby's participation in the Oxford Group. After Ebby had been sober a few months, Ebby's small discussion Oxford Group received guidance that Ebby needed to witness to another drunk. To get the mission over as painlessly as possible, Ebby told his Oxford discussion group that he would find Bill Wilson and witness how God had entered Ebby's life. john lee pittsburgh ________________________ From the moderator: Does anyone in the group have a text or source from the early AA period establishing that this statement is true? Did Ebby's Oxford Group meeting in fact, in one of their group guidance sessions, tell him that they had received guidance that he needed to witness to another drunk? Or was Clancy simply speculating here, and giving his hypothesis about what he guessed might have happened? Remember that Clancy's time in AA does not go back to the 1930's, so that he is not a first hand witness to any of those events. On the other hand, he knew a lot of the oldtimers, and may have had good evidence for saying this. Let's follow the canons of good historical research please, and talk about historical facts that can be established by hard evidence. Clancy may have been correct, but speculating about that gets us nowhere. Is there independent evidence that what Clancy said was correct? Does anybody know the source of Clancy's information? These are the questions that a good historian needs to ask. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator Professor Emeritus of History Indiana University IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3410. . . . . . . . . . . . Our greatest danger: Rigidity From: TomE . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2006 10:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII *[Complete text from The 36th General Service Conference Final Report, 1989]* /At the closing brunch on Saturday morning, Bob Pearson (G.S.O. senior adviser), who is retiring early next year, gave a powerful and inspiring closing talk (excerpted below) to the 36th Conference. (This talk was rescheduled from Friday afternoon.)/ ** Our greatest danger: rigidity This is my 18th General Service Conference--the first two as a director of the Grapevine and A.A.W.S., followed by four as a general service trustee. In 1972, I rotated out completely, only to be called back two years later as general manager of G.S.O., the service job I held until late 1984. Since the 1985 International Convention, of course, I have been senior adviser. This is also my last Conference, so this is an emotionally charged experience. I wish I had time to express my thanks to everyone to whom I am indebted for my sobriety and for the joyous life with which I have been blessed for the past nearly 25 years. But since this is obviously impossible, I will fall back on the Arab saying that Bill quoted in his last message, "I thank you for your lives." For without your lives, I most certainly would have no life at all, much less the incredibly rich life I have enjoyed. Let me offer my thoughts about A.A.'s future. I have no truck with those bleeding deacons who decry every change and view the state of the Fellowship with pessimism and alarm. On the contrary, from my nearly quarter-century's perspective, I see A.A. as larger, healthier, more dynamic, faster growing, more global, more service-minded, more back-to-basics, and more spiritual--by /far/--than when I came through the doors of my first meeting in Greenwich, Connecticut, just one year after the famous Long Beach Convention. A.A. has flourished beyond the wildest dreams of founding members, though perhaps not of Bill himself, for he was truly visionary. I echo those who feel that if this Fellowship ever falters or fails, it will not be because of any outside cause. No, it will not be because of treatment centers or professionals in the field, or non-Conference-approved literature, or young people, or the dually-addicted, or even the "druggies" trying to come to our closed meetings. If we stick close to our Traditions, Concepts, and Warranties, and if we keep an open mind and an open heart, we can deal with these /and any other/ problems that we have or ever will have. If we ever falter and fail, it will be simply because of us. It will be because we can't control our own egos or get along well enough with each other. It will be because we have too much fear and rigidity and not enough trust and common sense. If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A. today, I would have to answer: the growing /rigidity/--the increasing demand for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; pressure for G.S.O. to "enforce" our Traditions; screening alcoholics at closed meetings; prohibiting non-Conference-approved literature, i.e., "banning books"; laying more and more rules on groups and members, laying more and more rules on groups and members. And in this trend toward rigidity, we are drifting farther and farther away from our co- founders. Bill, in particular, must be spinning in his grave, for he was perhaps the most permissive person I ever met. One of his favorite sayings was, "Every group has the right to be wrong." He was maddeningly tolerant of his critics, and he had absolute faith that faults in A.A. were self-correcting. And I believe this, too, so in the final analysis we're not going to fall apart. We won't falter or fail. At the 1970 International Convention in Miami, I was in the audience on that Sunday morning when Bill made his brief last public appearance. He was too ill to take his scheduled part in any other convention event, but now, unannounced, on Sunday morning, he was wheeled up from the back of the stage in a wheelchair, attached with tubes to an oxygen tank. Wearing a ridiculous bright-orange, host committee blazer, he heaved his angular body to his feet and grasped the podium--and all pandemonium broke loose. I thought the thunderous applause and cheering would never stop, tears streaming down every cheek. Finally, in a firm voice, like his old self, Bill spoke a few gracious sentences about the huge crowd, the outpouring of love, and the many overseas members there, ending (as I remember) with these words: "As I look over this crowd, I know that Alcoholics Anonymous will live a thousand years--if it is God's will." /Bob Pearson (senior adviser) / [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3411. . . . . . . . . . . . Rigidity, Bob P., and the right of a group to be wrong From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2006 4:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bob P.'s farewell speech to the 1989 General Service Conference, "Our Greatest Danger: Rigidity." The complete published text is available at http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html#rigid The text was provided by Tom Enger (and can also be found in AAHistoryLovers Message 3410). ______________________________ Bob P. was General Manager of the General Service Office from 1974 to 1984, and then served as Senior Advisor to the G.S.O. from 1985 to 1990. During the 1989 General Service Conference, Bob gave a powerful and inspiring closing talk to the conference at the closing brunch on Saturday morning. It was an especially significant occasion, because he knew that he was going to retire early the next year, and that this would be his last General Service Conference. Excerpts from that farewell speech were published in "The 36th General Service Conference Final Report, 1989," which is the version given on the internet at http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html#rigid and in AAHistoryLovers Message 3410. ______________________________ Perhaps the most important sentence in Bob P.'s farewell speech was the following: "If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A. today, I would have to answer: the growing rigidity -- the increasing demand for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; pressure for G.S.O. to 'enforce' our Traditions; screening alcoholics at closed meetings; prohibiting non-Conference-approved literature, i.e., 'banning books'; laying more and more rules on groups and members." And in that talk, Bob P. also pointed to one of the most basic and fundamental AA principles, which came straight from Bill Wilson's mouth. As Bob notes, "one of [Bill's] favorite sayings was, 'Every group has the right to be wrong.'" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3412. . . . . . . . . . . . Population and percentage of alcoholics figures From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2006 6:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob's Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 and the numbers given there. I found a few quick numbers which were a little surprising to me but: Roughly 6% of the US population was alcoholic per an HHS survey. A note regarding that survey is at: http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/pre1995pres/910930.txt My calculations are (10.5 million / (76 million * 100 / 43)) The population of the world in 1950 and 1960 respectively was 2.55 billion / 3 billion from: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762181.html and http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopulationdata/a/worldpopulation.htm The percentage of alcoholics surprised me as being low, at least from the numbers which I have been told (verbally, with no references) since I have been in the program. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3413. . . . . . . . . . . . RE Was Doctor Bob an Episcopalian? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2006 7:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Doctor Bob was raised in the Congregational and Christian Endeavor traditions. Puritans. He and his wife Anne were members of The Presbyterian Church in Akron. They also attended St. Lukes, Westside Presbyterian, and lastly, St. Paul's Episcopal in Akron. Bob's funeral was held at St. Paul's. Listing Doctor Bob as Episcopalian paints an incomplete picture of his church attendance. john lee ArtSheehan wrote: From what I can glean from readings, I'd conjecture that Bill was a "closet Christian." I don't mean to sound flippant but I don't know how else to describe him in this area. Dr Bob was an Episcopalian. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3414. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob P''s Rigidity Talk: 1986, not 1989 From: Rick Swaney . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2006 5:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, correct year is 1986. Rick S. Ohio _________________________________ Rick, Thanks. I apologize for letting the mistake get through. This was one person's typo, which a number of others started copying, including me, without thinking about it. Arthur Sheehan sent in a photocopy of the report for that year, just to doubly establish that the 36th General Service Conference was held in 1986, and that you can read Bob P.'s speech in the official report for that year. For a corrected version, see: http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html#rigid For an artist's sketch of one of the conference sessions that year, courtesy of Arthur Sheehan, see http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html Bob P. is a very good man, and I should note that his story is in the Big Book. See: "AA Taught Him to Handle Sobriety," 3rd edit. (1976) pp. 554-561, and 4th edit. (2001) pp. 553-559. Apologies again for the error in the date. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3415. . . . . . . . . . . . AA photographs for framing From: marty_martyjs . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2006 10:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Our group is looking for a source of AA photographs that can be framed and put on the wall. Any suggestions? Thank you for your service. Marty S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3416. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant May Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2006 4:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII May 1919 - Bill returns home from service. (Dec 1934 to) May 1935 - Bill works with alcoholics, but fails to sober any of them. Lois reminds him HE is still sober. March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous. May 1939 - Lois W Home Replacement Fund started at Alcoholic Foundation. May 1949 - The first AA meetings in Scotland were held in Glasgow and Edinburgh. May 1950 - Nell Wing became Bill W's secretary. May 1951 - Al-Anon is founded by Lois W. and Anne B. May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. (sometimes reported as April 26, 1939) May 1, 1940 - Rollie H, Cleveland Indians, first anonymity break on national level. May 1, 1941 - The first Wisconsin AA meeting was held at a hotel in Milwaukee. May 2, 1941 - Jacksonville, FL newspaper reported the start of an AA group in Jacksonville. May 3, 1941 - The first AA group in New Orleans, Louisiana, was formed. (sometimes dated as May 2, 1943) May 3, 1941 - Democrat Chronicle in Rochester, NY, reported first annual AA dinner at Seneca hotel with 60 attending. May 4, 1940 - Sunday Star reported founding of first AA group in Washington, DC. May 6, 1939 - Clarence S of Cleveland told Dr. Bob, his sponsor, he would not be back to Oxford Group meetings in Akron and would start an "AA" meeting in Cleveland. May 6, 1946 - The long form of the "Twelve Traditions" was published in the AA Grapevine. May 8, 1943 - Akron AA Group celebrates 8th anniversary with 500 present and sober. May 8, 1971 - Bill W buried in private ceremony, East Dorset, Vermont. May 10, 1939 - Clarence S announced to the Akron Oxford Group members that the Cleveland members were starting a meeting in Cleveland and calling it Alcoholics Anonymous. May 11, 1935 - Bill W made calls from the Mayflower Hotel and was referred to Dr. Bob. May 11, 1939 - first group to officially call itself Alcoholics Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland. (some sources say the 18th) May 12, 1935 @ 5 pm - Bill W met Doctor Bob at the home of Henrietta Seiberling. May 15, 1961 - Bill W's mother, Dr Emily Strobell, died. May 16, 1941 - Ruth Hock finds that Joe W. (or V.), credited with coming up with the name Alcoholics Anonymous, has a "wet brain". May 17, 1942 - The Dayton Journal Herald published pictures of AA members wearing masks to protect their anonymity. May 17, 1942 - New Haven, Conn paper has article on AA. Picture shows faces of members sitting in a circle. May 18, 1950 - Dr. Bob tells Bill "I reckon we ought to be buried like other folks" after hearing that local AA's want a huge memorial. May 19, 2000 - Dr. Paul O., Big Book story "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" (renamed "Acceptance Was the Answer" in the 4th edition) died at the age of 83. May 28, 1974 - The first World Service Meeting of AA outside North America was held in London. May 29, 1980 - "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was published. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3417. . . . . . . . . . . . Recent photos of John Seiberling From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 2:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One of our members kindly sent in two recent photos of John Seiberling. http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html John was Henrietta Seiberling's son, and is the last living person who was around when the original, early meetings between Bill W. and Dr. Bob occurred in the summer of 1935. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3418. . . . . . . . . . . . Ernest Kurtz on Bill W. and Sam Shoemaker falling out From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 2:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Ernest Kurtz Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 To: Glenn Chesnut Subject: Re: Bill W. and Sam Shoemaker falling out? Glenn, In briefest outline, Bill and Sam fell out when Bill left the OG. After Buchman's 1939 praise of Hitler, Sam repented a bit and himself left the OG in 1941. His 1955 St. Louis talk reflected that. Copies of relevant correspondence may be at Brown, though more likely in Bill White's materials at Chestnut Hill in Bloomington. Cf. also this note from Not-God, which I think sums up the matter rather well: "For Shoemaker leaving the OG, cf. Clark, The Oxford Group, pp. 54, 80; Shoemaker (New York) to Wilson, 27 June 1949: 'God has saved you from the love of the spotlight, Bill, at least if not from the love of it -- from getting too much into it, and it is one of the biggest things about you.... If dear Frank could have learned the same lesson long ago MRA might have changed the face of the earth.'" ernie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3419. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s religious background From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 2:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 3413 from John Lee johnlawlee@yahoo.com (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) said: Doctor Bob was raised in the Congregational and Christian Endeavor traditions. Puritans. He and his wife Anne were members of The Presbyterian Church in Akron. They also attended St. Luke's, Westside Presbyterian, and lastly, St. Paul's Episcopal in Akron. Bob's funeral was held at St. Paul's. Listing Doctor Bob as Episcopalian paints an incomplete picture of his church attendance. john lee ______________________________ Dr. Bob attended the Congregationalist Church while he was a child in Vermont. Puritans were back in the 1600's. There were no Puritans anymore by Dr. Bob's time, and there hadn't been any for a long time. Some Congregationalists during Dr. Bob's childhood were Protestant liberals, while others were more traditional in their beliefs. Dr. Bob also belonged as a youth to an interdenominational Protestant evangelical youth group called Christian Endeavor, which was designed to appeal to teenagers. Dr. Bob was born on August 8, 1879. He wasn't a Fundamentalist during his childhood, because the Protestant Fundamentalist movement didn't start until the 1910's and 1920's, and was extremely small even in the 1930's. The Christian Endeavor youth group was not a Fundamentalist group in the modern sense. The Congregationalist Church never (to the best of my knowledge) got on board the Fundamentalist bandwagon. They are part of the United Church of Christ (UCC) today. The UCC has been in the news recently because they wanted to air a commercial on television which made it clear (without overdoing it) that people who were gay or lesbian were welcome in their church services. They are one of the most liberal Protestant denominations in the U.S. today. At their seminaries, their ministerial students are taught modern historical-critical biblical interpretation. They are not biblical literalists. This is the church Dr. Bob was brought up in as a child. This is important to note, because there are people who note that Dr. Bob belonged to groups which read the Bible and sometimes prayed and sang hymns to Jesus, and have jumped from that to the claim that Dr. Bob was brought up believing what were essentially Fundamentalist Protestant beliefs and doctrines and dogmas. They don't say this explicitly, but it is clear from the conclusions they draw about how AA "must" be practiced to get back to "genuine old time AA." All Christians read the Bible and sometimes pray and sing hymns to Jesus. That observation does not tell you whether they are Protestant or Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. They could be Amish and refuse to drive automobiles or use electricity. The Berrigan brothers who carried out protests against the Vietnam War that landed them in prison, were associated with all the major liberal causes in the U.S. during the 1960's, but they read the Bible and prayed to Jesus, because they were Catholic priests. People change their religious beliefs as they get older. Childhood religious beliefs may or may not be relevant to understanding what an older person believes. Dr. Bob was born on August 8, 1879 which meant that he was already 55 years old when he met Bill Wilson. Most people by the age of 55 no longer believe the same things they did when they were 15. Dr. Bob and Anne were by that time attending the Presbyterian Church, and later switched to the Episcopalian Church. There were not a lot of Congregationalist Churches in the upper midwest. The Presbyterians and Episcopalians would both have been "socially appropriate" for a doctor or lawyer. Both of these denominations (at that time) had enough of an upper middle class feel to be appropriate for people of their background, and this may have been a far more important issue than any specific doctrinal beliefs. But obviously we don't know about that for sure. THE OXFORD GROUP As good AA historians have known for years, it is the Oxford Group connection that is truly important for understanding where both Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson were coming from. The Oxford Group had strong links to the Protestant missionary groups of the early twentieth century which were trying to preach the Christian gospel in non-Christian countries like China and most of India. This was the world of H. A. Walter and John R. Mott. Frank Buchman did missionary work in China before he came to Cambridge and Oxford. The Oxford Group also had strong links to the Keswick Holiness movement, which centered around the annual Keswick Convention in the English Lake District, and mixed traditional gospel preaching with (sometimes) the kind of Catholic mysticism which we see in St. John of the Cross (look for example at Hannah Hurnard, "Hind's Feet on High Places"). Frank Buchman had his decisive spiritual experience while attending the Keswick Convention. The Oxford Group also had strong links to the kind of late nineteenth century American and British revivalism which we see in Henry Drummond ( see http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html ), who was closely associated with the great revivalist preacher Dwight L. Moody ( see Mel B's book "New Wine," http://www.walkindryplaces.com/books.html ) But most of these people accepted some at least of the findings of modern biblical criticism, and most of them put themselves on record as being totally opposed to the new Fundamentalist movement. They were all aware, for example, that if you put the sayings of Jesus as found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke in three parallel columns, that the wording was slightly different in the three different gospels. So they were not biblical literalists in the Fundamentalist sense. That was a key part of the background of the Oxford Group. Even more importantly, the Oxford Group represented a rephrasing, in modern language, of the old message of the founders of the evangelical movement back in the 1730's, see: 1. The Oxford Group and the Eighteenth Century Evangelical Movement http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang1.html 2. Power to Heal the Soul http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang2.html 3. House Parties, Confession, Surrender, and Guidance http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang3.html 4. Quiet Time, Guidance, and God-Bearers http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang4.html 5. The Four Absolutes and the Dangers of Legalism http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang5.html 6. The Balanced Life: Seeking the Golden Mean http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang6.html The Oxford Group went back to the world of Jonathan Edwards and John Wesley in the 1730's, that is, back to the beginnings of the modern evangelical movement. DR. BOB'S RELIGION Dr. Bob (along with most of the early AA people) read the Bible and prayed sometimes to God the Father directly and sometimes to Jesus. This is so obvious and well established, that it requires no elaborate "proofs." It is equally obvious that the three most important early sources of ideas for the early AA movement came (in order of importance) from (1) the Oxford Group, (2) the Upper Room and the Southern Methodists ( http://hindsfoot.org/UpRm1.html ), and (3) New Thought as represented by Emmet Fox's "Sermon on the Mount" and James Allen's "As a Man Thinketh" (see http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html ). Questions about Christian Endeavor and Swedenborgianism are interesting, and I am still very curious myself about the latter, but they should not divert us from seeing the main and obvious sources of early A.A. ideas. 1939 AND AFTERWARDS: The most important thing that happened in early AA, was that already in the Big Book, after long debate, all references to Jesus were taken out except for one referring to him as a good man and a wise teacher, and most but not all biblical quotations. ("Not my will but thine be done" is Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane.) In the AA writings from the 1940's (the Akron pamphlets, the Detroit/Washington D.C. pamphlet, the Little Red Book, Twenty Four Hours a Day, and so on), the same policy was followed. No prayers to Jesus, and no statement of any Christian doctrines about being saved by Jesus' blood shed on the cross, and so on. Even Father John Doe's Golden Books, which employ more biblical quotations and references to traditional Christianity than any other early AA literature, followed that same policy. The three portions of the New Testament which were still emphasized as containing good AA teaching, were chosen in part because none of these three portions of the New Testament make any reference to the divinity of Jesus or being saved by Jesus' death on the cross or praying to Jesus: see the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5 to 7), the epistle of James, and 1 Corinthians 13. What makes that significant was that it is not easy to find any place at all in the New Testament where those doctrines do not appear. It took work for them to find three reasonably long places in the New Testament which totally avoided those doctrines, which means it almost certainly was deliberate. Romans 7 to 8 would otherwise have been an obvious section of the New Testament to have newcomers read, because that was the place where the New Testament stated in clearest fashion the basic principle which lay behind AA, the Oxford Group, and the early evangelical teaching of Jonathan Edwards and John Wesley: only God's grace had the power to free human beings from deeply obsessive and compulsive sins. When we could not stop by using our own will power, and found ourselves powerless, we had to call upon the power of liberating grace. But Romans 7 to 8 continually put it in terms of "the spirit of Christ," and the early AA people had found that God "as we understand him" will save us from our alcoholic compulsion, even if we do not approach God by praying to Jesus and calling upon Jesus' name. And already by 1939 and the early 1940's, the majority of early AA's wanted to "deChristianize" AA to the extent of freeing members from any necessity of HAVING to follow any traditional Christian doctrines or practices at all. In somewhat awkward fashion, most AA's continued to use the Upper Room as their main meditational literature all the way down to 1948. Some prayers in the Upper Room are to God the Father, but others are to Jesus. Lots of biblical passages are quoted. But since that little pamphlet was published by the Southern Methodists, who were Protestant liberals, the readings in the Upper Room hardly ever in fact referred to the divinity of Jesus or being saved by Jesus' blood shed on the cross (in fact, I cannot remember ever reading any passages in the little pamphlets from those days which talked about either of those ideas). And the Upper Room also pretty much stayed away from any of the miracle stories in the Bible. When Richmond Walker published Twenty Four Hours a Day in 1948 in Daytona Beach, Florida, and began printing it on the printing press in the county courthouse and distributing it under the sponsorship of the Daytona Beach AA group, AA people all over the United States started clamoring for copies of the new book. http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla1.html http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla2.html http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html Because Rich followed the same formula used in the Big Book and all the AA writings of the 1940's. He eliminated all (or most) references to Jesus, and never prayed to Jesus. He used almost no biblical passages at all, although he did use a few: "And underneath are the everlasting arms," for example, and references to two of Jesus' parables, the Prodigal Son and the Good Samaritan, both of which had special significance to recovering alcoholics. We came to God like the Prodigal Son, and discovered to our surprise that he welcomed us with open arms and all forgiving love. Our duty then became to act like the Good Samaritan and do whatever it took to help other suffering alcoholics (the people who were left to die by the side of the road, with everyone else walking by in disgust and refusing to lift a finger to help). The story of the Prodigal Son is in Luke 15:11 to 32, and the story of the Good Samaritan is in Luke 10:29 to 37. The priest and the levite (sort of a deacon or assistant priest) in the story of the Good Samaritan represented all the religious people who insist on following every single point of doctrine and dogma, and following every one of their hundreds and hundreds of religious rules, and tell you that you will go to hell if you don't read the Bible in one specific translation, and so on. They were afraid that if they tried to help the man who was lying beside the road dying, and he died on them while they were ministering to him, that they would be rendered ritually contaminated. Because the rules they followed said that those who had touched a corpse were "unclean" and could not approach the altar of God, without elaborate cleansing rituals. And the direction they were walking on the road meant that they were going to Jerusalem to help in the Temple services. (The man who lay beside the road had been going from Jerusalem to Jericho, and the priest and the levite came upon him while they were walking down the road going the opposite direction, which meant they were going from Jericho to Jerusalem.) The priest and the levite were willing to let people die rather than take the risk of breaking a single one of the hundreds and thousands of rules and minor distinctions which they had written down and memorized. The man who truly acted as a child of God in the little story which Jesus told was a Samaritan, which meant that he didn't believe in most of the Bible at all. He only believed in five books out of the entire Bible, and he interpreted those in a different kind of way. He did not, for example, believe in any kind of last judgment or life after death. When you were dead, you were dead as far as he was concerned. People like the priest and the levite were convinced that the Samaritans were going to hell. (The real historical Jesus, the Jesus for example of the Sermon on the Mount, disagreed with these rule bound fanatics, with all their doctrines and dogmas and desire to scold and condemn other people. And he had a real sympathy for the Samaritans, in spite of some of their religious beliefs, and on one occasion praised a pagan Roman official for the power of his faith.) Both of these parables (the Prodigal Son and the Good Samaritan) were referred to by other AA authors during the 1940's. Father John Doe for example (Father Ralph Pfau of Indianapolis) in his Golden Books. http://hindsfoot.org/pflou1.html http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou2.html http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou3.html Father John Doe wrote his autobiography and entitled it "Prodigal Shepherd." By that he meant that, as a Catholic priest, he was supposed to have been the shepherd of his flock. But like the Prodigal Son, he had gone astray, and had to return home and ask for God's forgiveness and mercy. And he lived and worked, after he had gotten sober, at the Convent of the Good Shepherd in Indianapolis, which continues this image. God had not only welcomed him back, but had allowed him to become one of his good shepherds again, reaching out this time to the fallen alcoholics of the world. AA's ROOTS: AA's roots are almost totally Christian. This is obvious and undeniable, and does not have to be "proven" with elaborate proofs. It is equally obvious and undeniable, that most of the surface Christian elements, and all of the references to Christian doctrines like the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, and the substitutionary doctrine of the atonement, began being removed in 1939 and the early 1940's BY THE ORIGINAL AA PEOPLE THEMSELVES, the people who had gotten sober prior to 1939 in Akron and the New York City area. This is what was done in the Akron pamphlets and the Little Red Book (all of which had Dr. Bob's approval), in the same way that it was going on in other parts of the United States and Canada during the 1940's. You cannot play "Akron vs. New York" on this issue. We find none of the original AA people (who got sober prior to 1939) complaining about the Big Book once it had been published, or any of the AA literature that was published during the 1940's. They agreed that this approach was best. But AA's roots still lay back in the Christian tradition, and particularly in the Protestant evangelical movement called the Oxford Group. That has to be the starting place for studying AA's roots. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3420. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator out of town May 3-9 plus another notice From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 4:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I will be out of town and unable to get at a computer from Thursday, May 3 till Tuesday, May 9, 2006. If you could hold off on sending stuff in for a few days, I would appreciate it. ______________________________ Also, as another note (more a reminder than a notice), in the basic guidelines for the AAHistoryLovers as established a long time ago, Nancy Olson and the other original members were very clear that they did not want the AAHL to turn into an AA chat group, of which there were already plenty. ______________________________ So we don't post messages that are just statements of opinion, no matter how heartfelt. We try to stick, as much as possible (although it isn't always easy to draw this line one hundred percent), with messages about historical questions which have objective answers, based on verifiable historical facts and documents. A lot of our members have written good books on AA history, and we pride ourselves on also trying to use really good historical methodology in the messages that are posted in the group. Also they jump on me, and write me highly critical emails if I don't (grin). Like a prominent AA historian who wrote to me about six months ago and said, "and are you posting fairy tales in the AAHistoryLovers now?" And likewise, a message which is just a personal response to someone else's message should be sent directly to the email address of the person who posted the message (such as "oh gee, I really loved your message, it was tremendously good" or "you dirty dog, your message betrayed all the holy principles which we truly good AA members hold dear"). We can't post those messages either. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator South Bend, Indiana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3421. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA photographs for framing From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 4:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII General Services has a package of wonderful shots. These photos are fit for framing. Kilroy W. 4021 Club Philadelphia PA _________________________________ Also from: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) GSO in NY archives has 2 different sets of photos reasonably priced and perfect for hanging in meeting rooms. Frames purchased locally will cost you extra. It's a great way to develop interest in AA archives. YIS Shakey Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3422. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ernest Kurtz on Bill W. and Sam Shoemaker falling out From: Archie Bunkers . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 5:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "One of the biggest issues with MRA was the fabled 'Thank heaven for Hitler' remark by Buchman. In this interview published in August 26, 1936, Buchman said "I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler...." Taken from: http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/moralrearm.html Archie Bunkers _________________________________ The full quotation from that website is: One of the biggest issues with MRA was the fabled "Thank heaven for Hitler" remark by Buchman. In this interview published in August 26, 1936, Buchman said "I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism ... Of course I don't condone everything the Nazis do." This statement brought criticism to Buchman as a Nazi lover and his statement of Himmler being a great lad got him the label of a pro-Nazi. _________________________________ > From: Ernest Kurtz > Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 > To: Glenn Chesnut > Subject: Re: Bill W. and Sam Shoemaker falling out? > > Glenn, > > In briefest outline, Bill and Sam fell out when > Bill left the OG. After Buchman's 1939 praise of > Hitler, Sam repented a bit and himself left the > OG in 1941. His 1955 St. Louis talk reflected that. > > Copies of relevant correspondence may be at Brown, > though more likely in Bill White's materials at > Chestnut Hill in Bloomington. Cf. also this note > from Not-God, which I think sums up the matter > rather well: > > "For Shoemaker leaving the OG, cf. Clark, The > Oxford Group, pp. 54, 80; Shoemaker (New York) to > Wilson, 27 June 1949: > > 'God has saved you from the love of the spotlight, > Bill, at least if not from the love of it -- from > getting too much into it, and it is one of the biggest > things about you.... If dear Frank could have learned > the same lesson long ago MRA might have changed the > face of the earth.'" > > ernie IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3423. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Recent photos of John Seiberling From: Fritz689 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 11:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, The John Sieberling pictures you shared with everyone have the WRONG caption. John's wife's name is BETTY, my wife's name is Katie Ings and we go to Stan Hywet Gardens and Museum often. John and his wife BETTY still enjoy returning to the family grounds and meeting people and sharing a moment or two as often as they can. Gratefully Yours, Fred Ings _____ From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Subject: Recent photos of John Seiberling One of our members kindly sent in two recent photos of John Seiberling, which are the ones Fred is talking about: http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html As I understood the captions which he placed on the two photos when he sent them to me, the woman on the right in the top picture (and on the left in the bottom picture) is named Katie and is John Seiberling's wife. Fred says no, that is incorrect. So two questions for our group: (1) Is that woman named Betty or Katie? And (2) is that woman John's wife or Fred's wife? I'm getting more confused instead of less confused! Can we have some additional expert input here? I have met John (at one of the National Archives Workshops in Akron which Gail LaC. organized) but have never met his wife, so I am dependent here on people who know both of them to help me get the right captions on these photos. John was Henrietta Seiberling's son, and is the last living person who was around when the original, early meetings between Bill W. and Dr. Bob occurred in the summer of 1935. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3424. . . . . . . . . . . . Let It Begin With Me From: rrecovery2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2006 10:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Let It Begin With Me---Where is that quote from? Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3425. . . . . . . . . . . . Who were the "fortunate few"? From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2006 9:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who were the "fortunate few" who were able to "give nearly all their time" to AA work at the time the Big Book was being written? Big Book page 19: "None of us makes a sole vocation of this work, nor do we think its effectiveness would be increased if we did. We feel that elimination of our drinking is but a beginning. A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes, occupations and affairs. All of us spend much of our spare time in the sort of effort which we are going to describe. A few are fortunate enough to be so situated that they can give nearly all their time to the work." Does anyone know who these fortunate few were? Thanks history lovers IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3426. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Let It Begin With Me From: remcuster@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2006 5:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 40th Anniversary AA International at Denver, from remcuster and Theresa L. (plus remarks by Mel B., Jan R., and Lance W.) ______________________________ From: remcuster@aol.com (remcuster at aol.com) It was the "Theme" for the A.A. Convention in Denver, 1975 ______________________________ From: theresa leisinger (brideofaa at yahoo.com) I happened upon a mention of it from "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age". p.xi Landmarks in A.A. History 1975 40th Anniversary International Convention at Denver Colorado. Over 19,000 join Lois in repeating the theme, "Let It begin with Me" ______________________________ From: Lance Weldgen (lance_1954 at yahoo.com) In Al-Anon's Declaration similar to AA'sWhen anyone, anywhere...." ______________________________ From: "Mel Barger" (melb at accesstoledo.com) IT'S IN THE SONG, LET THERE BE PEACE ON EARTH, AND LET IT BEGIN WITH ME. Mel Barger ______________________________ From: "Jan L. Robinson" (jbaldwin at imbris.com) The only one that I know is a song "Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me." Jan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3427. . . . . . . . . . . . new find orig writer of book September Remember From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2006 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII i received this email on my aa history bibliography website today May 9 2006 regarding a page I had done on the alcoholism book September Remember by Pseudonym Elliot Taintor From : Caleb Mason Sent : Monday, May 8, 2006 10:31 AM To : Subject : September Remember This novel was written by Gregory Mason (my grandfather) and his wife Ruth Fitch. Caleb Mason I am awaiting futher news and proof about this LD Pierce editor aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3428. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s military awards From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2006 8:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all. I am not aware of any decorations Bill may have received in the service. Has anyone got any inkling of what Bill was talking about, specificially when he says in his story, "for had not the men of my battery given me a special token of appreciation." (1:3) What was the "token of appreciation"? Do we know or have heard of, any medals, commendations, honors etc.? Thanks. Peace, Danny Schwarzhoff IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3429. . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie''s lead? (of the Joe and Charlie tapes) From: Eric . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2006 9:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I love the Joe and Charlie tapes, but along this line I was wondering if there is anywhere online where Charlie's lead can be downloaded. I found Joe's on xa-speakers.org but haven't found anything by Charlie, if one even exists. Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3430. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby T. Letter (1962) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2006 10:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Envelope Postage Stamp: Delmar N.Y. January 23, 1962 9 AM Envelope From: E.T.Thacher #1 Oakwood Place Delmar, N.Y. U.S.A. Envelope To: Mr. B Whitney Hillmer, Harbour Master, 217 Essex Street Sarnia, Ontario Canada Letter: c/o K.R.Thacher #1 Oakwood Place Delmar, N.Y. January 22, 1962 Dear Whit- Thanks for your Christmas card and I am sure you would have rec'd one from me, except that on Dec.5th, last, I was "took" with pneumonia and hospitalized until the 15th in Dallas. From there to a clinic for convalescence until Dec. 27th, when I took a plane for N.Y. City. The latter because the medicos said I would not be fit to work for some time, and without employment I could not very well stick around Dallas. Good old Bill Wilson met me at the airport and I spent a few days with the Wilsons in their home in Bedford Hills, then on here. Delmar is a suburb of Albany, which city is my birthplace and where I was "brung up". It's a lot different after 24 yrs. absence! I am feeling better, and just now getting my legs back under me. I have no plans as yet, just trying to take it, day at a time,-and I assure you I never have been too good at that sort of thing, but we'll give it a whirl. Enclosed, two snaps, all I could find but you are welcome,-they are pretty bad, both taken in Dallas in '54. I unearthed them from a large folder I was able to salvage, the afternoon I cleaned my room, the day prior to my departure. Take it easy,-and keep those ships moving. All the best Ebby (Ebwin T. Thacher) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3431. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who were the "fortunate few"? From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2006 11:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Comments from Jay L. and Tom H. ______________________________ From: "Jay Lawyer" (ejlawyer at midtel.net) Bill W. for one. Due to his work history (getting tight at the wrong times) no one would give him work so he spent alot of time to AA work. Dr. Bob worked at the hospital and it is claimed he worked with at least 5000 people in his 15 years of sober life. That just names a couple that were so situated. I would think that some of the salesmen that went around the country that were given names of people who wrote to 'The Alcoholic Foundation' were also meant to be included in that statement. Jay ______________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: trixiebellaa Who were the "fortunate few" who were able to "give nearly all their time" to AA work at the time the Big Book was being written? Big Book page 19: "None of us makes a sole vocation of this work, nor do we think its effectiveness would be increased if we did. We feel that elimination of our drinking is but a beginning. A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes, occupations and affairs. All of us spend much of our spare time in the sort of effort which we are going to describe. A few are fortunate enough to be so situated that they can give nearly all their time to the work." Does anyone know who these fortunate few were? Thanks history lovers ______________________________ From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) I have taken it as figurative speech with no one in particular in mind. I doubt that it can be demonstrated with any degree of certainty one way or the other. The Big Book is full of examples like this. Tommy H in Baton Rouge ______________________________ From the moderator: It seems to me that the operant phrase is "nearly all their time," meaning people who spent the majority of their time every week working with alcoholics instead of working at their jobs. Dr. Bob is said to have spent very little time on his medical practice as compared to his work sponsoring alcoholics, which was the reason that he and Anne had so little money for clothes, household expenses, automobile expenses, and so on. (See Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers) Sgt. Bill S., who knew AA No. 3 well, says that AA No. 3 made much less money than most lawyers because he neglected his legal practice to do AA work, but he told Sgt. Bill that "he got a million dollars in gratitude" as his payment. (As recounted in Sgt. Bill's book about early AA: http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html ) It depends on how you define "nearly all their time," remembering that Bill W. had a tendency to exaggerate a bit. Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) [Non-text portions of this message have been remove