AA History Lovers 2007 Messages 3976-4774 moderated by Nancy Olson September 18, 1929 – March 25, 2005 Glenn F. Chesnut June 28, 1939 – IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3976. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions From: Chuck David . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2006 2:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The video "Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions" is available from GSO (VS-20). It is in the current catalog in the AV material section catalog number (VS-20) a 1/2 in VHS video price $15.00. ** Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions -- Bill W. tells how the principles safeguarding AA unity developed. 60 minutes. I own a copy of this video and have dubed it to DVD to save it for future use. My VCR only works intermittantly and find that DVD format is the way to go... I have noticed that many of the AV materials GSO offers are on VHS format. Even at a recent Area meeting there was extensive discussion on producing materials in DVD format vice VHS format... .I believe it was the ASL signing of the Big Book which is available however excludes most of the stories from the back of the book. You may contact GSO to receive a catalog of materials available their number is 1-212-870-3312 / this is also the order number if you decide to order the VHS tape. Hope this was helpful. C h u c k D a v i d cuzimacowboy2@yahoo.com Litrature and GV rep Oak Harbor Group Oak Harbor, WA - - - - - - - Thanks to all, we got the same information from a number of our members: "Bent Christensen" (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com) "Chris Budnick" (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) alan dobson (dobbo101 at yahoo.com) Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) "momaria33772" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) Gary Rohde (feelgoodcp at yahoo.com) ROGER WHEATLEY (chief_roger at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3977. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2006 6:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The VHS tape is Conference-approved service material. You can purchase it directly from AAWS in NY or through your local Intergroup Central Office. It is item number (VS-20) and costs $15. It might better be called "Bill Discusses Ten of the Twelve Traditions." He got a little pressed for time near the end and had to skip two of them. There are two other VHS tapes that you might be interested in: "Bill's Own Story" (VS-21 - $15) and "Markings on the Journey" (M-57 - $16) which is an hour history of AA. All three items are designated as "confidential and available to AA members only." The catalog asks you to order through your group. If you know your group's service number then you can order it directly by: Phone: 1-212-870-3312 Order Entry Dep't) Fax: 1-212-870-3137 or 1-800-437-3584 Mail: AAWS, PO Box 459, Grand Central Station, NY, NY 10163 Email: orders@aa.org Call the Order Entry Dep't for assistance. They are very friendly and helpful. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3978. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant January Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 2:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking. Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School. Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of "Alcoholics Anonymous". Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression. Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA. Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob. Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety". Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus, Ohio Central Group. Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland. Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded. Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan. Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get away from the Oxford Group atmosphere". Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years sober. Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous, died. Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group. Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School, Akron, Ohio. Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years dies. Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician Heal Thyself" died. Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC. Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri. Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto. Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started in Oct 24 1943. Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in his sleep. Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in Pennington, New Jersey. Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001. Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church in Brookyn Heights. Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL. Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley. Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1. Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus Contra Spiritum". End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated for comment, evaluation and sale. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3979. . . . . . . . . . . . Not AA Number Three From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 9:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W and Dr Bob worked with two other alcoholics in 1935 before succeeding with Bill Dotson who became AA Number Three. There was a Dr McKay and then Edgar (Eddie) Reilly. Where do those two fit in this timeline? May 11 -- Bill W calls Reverend Tunks. May 12 -- Mothers Day. Bill W and Dr Bob meet. June 10 -- Dr Bob's last drink. June 17 -- (other possible last drink date) June 26 -- Bill D enters Akron's City Hospital. June 28 -- Bill W and Dr Bob visit Bill D. That isn't even seven weeks and Dr Bob was away getting drunk at a medical conference part of that time. When did they work with the other two unsuccessful AA #3 candidates? Was either around at the time of Bob's slip? Did either of them visit Bill D in the hospital. Did Bill D help during Eddie's slippery period? If Dr Bob and Bill worked with Eddie "throughout the summer," then he must have been around for a while after Bill D became part of the group. It would be interestig to know the full sequence. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3980. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox''s secretary''s connection to early AA From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2006 5:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox contains the following sentence: "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result of this connection early AA groups often went to hear Fox." If this statement is correct, can anyone in our web group give me this man's name? Glenn Chesnut, South Bend P.S. It is well known to AA historians that in New York, "early AA groups often went to hear Fox." It is not that, but the first part of that sentence in the wikipedia article that I would like to know more about. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3981. . . . . . . . . . . . United Kingdom GSO: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions From: Susie Dixon . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2006 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everyone I got my copy of the DVD from GSO in UK. Hope this helps. I presume GSO USA have copies. All good wishes to everyone for 2007 Susie D in the UK IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3982. . . . . . . . . . . . Patron saints of alcoholism From: John Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2006 2:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Regarding Glenn's reply about St, Monica, other patron saints of alcoholism include John of God, Martin of Tours, Matthias the Apostle, and Unban of Langres. Others were recognized as saints in part through their work with alcoholics. Perhaps the most notable person today who is in process of being recognized a saint is the Venerable Matt Talbot (1856-1925) of Dublin, Ireland. A few books look at his recovery journey in light of the twelve steps. The patron saint of hangovers is St. Bibiana (Vivian) who lived in 4th century Rome. She is also the patron saint of the Diocese of Los Angeles. John Blair IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3983. . . . . . . . . . . . Jack Norris'' Talk at Bill W.''s Funeral (1971) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 8:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII DR. JACK NORRIS' TALK MEMORIAL SERVICES for BILL WILSON NEW YORK, N.Y. FEB. 14TH, 1971 Our beloved Bill is dead. Even as I stand before you and say the words, I cannot really believe that it is true. In my heart I choose to believe that Bill is here with us at this very moment. And I somehow can almost hear him saying in that half-amused, half embarrassed way of his, "Oh come on now Jack, do you really think all this fuss is necessary?" Two weeks ago, at a meeting of your Board of Trustees, shortly after Bill's passing, there was a rather lively discussion about a matter involving the whole fellowship. When it had reached a certain level of intensity, I found myself waiting to hear Bill speak up, as he so often did and say those few words that would put everything in perspective. But he didn't speak. And it was then that I realized way down deep that we would never hear his voice again ... that we could no longer count on the constant presence of his wisdom and strength. We could never again say as we had said so many times before, "Bill, what do you think?" And I at least, have not yet come to accept this completely. Bill was no saint. He was an alcoholic and a man of stubborn will and purpose. How else could he have lived through the years of frustration, failure, and discouragement while the steps, the traditions, and the conference were being hammered out on the anvil of hard experience with the first few groups? That he had the self-honesty, the clarity of vision to see the vital necessity for the Third Step, and turning one's life and will over to a Higher Power is just one part of our great good fortune that Bill lived. I have seen Bill's pride and I have seen his humility. And I have been present when people from far countries have met him for the first time and started to cry. And all Bill - that shy Vermonter - could do was stand there and look like he wanted to run from the room. No, Bill was no saint, although many of us wanted to make him into one. Knowing this, he was insistent that legends about him be kept to a minimum - that accurate records be kept so that future generations would know him as a man. He was a very human person -- to me an exceptionally human person. Bill's constant concern during almost all of the years that I knew him was that Alcoholics Anonymous should always be available for the suffering alcoholic--that the mistakes that led to the fading of previous movements to help alcoholics should be avoided. To me one measure of his greatness is the clarity of his vision of the future in his determination to let go of us long before we were willing to let go of him. Bill was a good sponsor, - the wise old timer determined to relinquish the role of founder because he knew that A.A. must, as he would say, come of age and take complete responsibility for itself. He had an abiding faith that our Fellowship not only could, but should run without him. Repeatedly, during the last few years, he has said in General Service Conference sessions "We have nothing to fear." Bill believed that the wisdom of A.A. came out of church basements and not from the pulpit; that it was directed from the groups to the Trustees rather than the other way around. He sometimes felt, though, when the Conference disagreed with him as it sometimes did, that its conscience needed to be better informed, but it was this way that we really shared experience and developed strength and confidence that the answers would work out. Bill knew that it was not one voice that should be heard, but many thousands of voices. And it was his gift that he was able to listen to them all, then, out of the noise and confusion discern the group conscience. Then he would put it all together, the tension of argument would fade, and everyone would realize that his answer was right. What Bill's death means to me now is, that all of us--all of us: you, the delegates, the Trustees--will have to listen much more carefully than we once did in order to make out the voice of the group conscience. And I know that this is possible. Bill has trained us for it beginning in St. Louis in 1955. For this was Bill's vision -- to create a channel of communication within the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous that would make it possible for everyone to be hear: from the individual through the group, to the delegates and to the Trustees, so that A.A. will always be here to extend a hand to the drunk who is at this very moment crying out in the darkness of his night as he reaches for help. In closing, I want to say that it has been an honor for me to have had this opportunity to participate with you in giving thanks to God that Bill lived and was given the wisdom and strength and courage to make the world a better place for all of us. There are many more things I could say, but what can one say finally of a man's goodness and greatness? How many ways can you take his measure? I cannot do it or say it for any of you -- only for myself. He was the greatest and wisest man I ever knew. Above everything, he was a man. And I believe that he left his goodness and greatness and wisdom with us, for any of us to take in what measure we can. May God grant us the wisdom and strength to keep Alcoholics Anonymous alive, vital, attractive, unencumbered by the egocentricities that can so easily spoil it. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3984. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The "attack" was by Jerome E., not Barry L. From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2006 10:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Ernie, Jerome Ellison was a regular contributor to The Saturday Evening Post and may have offered his article to them. But he did publish one in The Nation in 1964 and the title might have been "Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult?" He actually called me for a piece of information while he was writing the article, but he got it wrong when it was published. The matter in question concerned AA in southern Michigan and he somehow converted it to AA in the South! Jerry was upset with AA leadership because he had been fired as editor of the Grapevine after a short stay there. Bill took on the duty of firing him, since Bill had recommended him for the job. Jerry was an excellent writer and editor but he had trouble getting along with people at work I met him at the Grapevine offices while he was there and was very much impressed by his background. He was a University of Michigan graduate and had been a close college friend of one of our AAs in Jackson, Michigan. The Saturday Evening Post did run a nasty article in the Sept. 19, 1964, issue by Arthur Cain, the same man who had written "Alcoholics Anonymous---Cult or Cure?" for the February 1963 Harper's Magazine. Cain wrote Bill a letter of apology for the Saturday Evening Post article and blamed its nastiness on the editors. Bill, though usually very kind to critics, did not cut him much slack in replying to Cain's apology. We will have to get together soon with Kathleen and Father Dave; both have mentioned it to me. As I told you, Kathleen has been able to publish a few items to help her in her quest for tenure at UT. Happy New Year to you and Linda, Ernie. I am grateful for your friendship and all the help and encouragement you've givien me the past twenty-seven years. Mel Mel Barger / melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3985. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: How to take Akron tour? From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2006 9:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would suggest stopping first at the Akron Intergroup Office, 775 N. Main St., Akron, Ohio 44310, to view their fantastic history display in timeline order, and get maps. They are open 9-5 weekdays and 9-1 on Saturday, other arrangements may be possible. You can see part of that here: http://akronaa.org/Archives/tour/tour2.html Some other questions can be answered by calling them: 330/253-8181 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: Jocelyn (prpllady51 at yahoo.com) Telephone: Intergroup Office: (330) 253-8181 Toll free (in Ohio): 1-800-897-6737 Fax: (330) 253-8292 Dr. Bob's House is open Noon to 3pm every day except Christmas. Also the home next door serves as a museum for AA pictures and all sorts of artifacts. The cemetery where Dr Bob is buried is a short drive from the house. When we were at Dr Bob's House they had a map of the area with directions to the various sites of interest. The Mayflower Hotel is now a personal care home but they have kept the Lobby intact. If you tell the people at the home that you are a "friend of Bill W's" and would like to see the lobby you can get access. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: "Jayaa82@earthlink.net" (Jayaa82 at earthlink.net) I am a volunteer at the Akron Archives located in the Akron Intergroup office. (775 N Main St, Akron 44310) That would be a great place to start, with enough advance notice the archivist can meet you there and give you a tour of the archives, and we have maps to get you to Dr Bob's, the gatehouse, Mayflower, Dr. Bob's grave, etc. Call the office for info, they will be glad to help (330) 253-8181 Jay Moore - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: "mchugh1652" (mchugh1652 at ameritech.net) http://www.akronaa.org/ The Akron Intergroup Office website. There used to be a map and tour information on it but I can't find it right now. We also used to have volunteeers who could lead groups on a tour but I'm not sure of the status of that service at this point either. Woody W could probably fill you in on both items or you can certainly call the office 330-253-8181. If you have any questions I'd be glad to help, you can reply to my email address: (mchugh1652 at ameritech.net) Please also take a look at the archives portion of the website, there is alot of good info about the history of Akron AA on there (and a lot more at the archives). I look forward to being of service. Peter McH. from Akron - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: "ricktompkins" (ricktompkins at comcast.net) I can suggest starting off at the Akron Intergroup Office on N. Main. The sequence of where you visit can be guided by an available tour map from the Office. Call ahead, ask for a viewing of the Archives at the Intergroup Office -- the Akron Archives is a top-flight museum site, and I'm sure Gail LaCroix or Jim Burns would be happy to greet you, and perhaps arrange a personal guided tour with a local volunteer. On your tour, remember to plan a quiet time at Dr. Bob's gravesite ... After all the touring, get to a meeting, too! The Arid Club on the southeast side has a good speaker meeting. Most of all, you will heartily enjoy the trip! Rick, Illinois - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: daniel dougherty (olddand at msn.com) You have a pretty good tour of Akron already mapped out. I would suggest you add the Gatehouse to your tour of the Seiberling estate (and allow enough time to tour the flowers while you're there). There is a house next to Dr. Bob's House, in which the Akron office maintains a pretty good collection of AA historical items. BTW, don't miss the Akron office itself. It has a great display in its meeting room. Also be sure to try and schedule a meeting with the Akron historian, who is also located in the rooms where the Akron office is located. If you have time, you might also like to attend an Aakron meeting or two. Many of them have historical backgrounds and display items. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: Sheryl Sizemore (sherylsizemore at yahoo.com) I can say it's a spiritual experience. All you need to do is call Dr. Bob's House which is open from noon until 3:00 pm daily, phone 330-864-1935. Or email them @ volunteers@drbobs.com Internet address is www.drbobs.com One of their volunteer coordinators (Rick W.) took us to Dr. Bob's home, Seiberlings Estate, Town's Hospital, and Dr. Bob's gravesite. We also went to a meeting that night which began in the old school. Have a blessed trip and please share with us your experience, strength, and hope. Sheryl Sizemore Holly Springs Group, GA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Also from: "Mike" (heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3986. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. From: chris mahl . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 11:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe his name was Al Speckman. I will dig out the reference and send it along. Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill, Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the city. I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and phrases of Emmet's. I'll send along another note with more specifics. Best from NYC. Chris M. On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox > contains the following sentence: > > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the > men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous > co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result > of this connection early AA groups often went > to hear Fox." > > If this statement is correct, can anyone in > our web group give me this man's name? > > Glenn Chesnut, South Bend ----------------------- Chris Mahl 10 Ventures PDA 917-902-4980 Fax 18668230272 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3987. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Patron saints of alcoholism From: Bob Wilson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2007 2:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please take this with a grain of salt, but a medallion was shown to me by a fellow AA back in the seventies who was librarian at the state supreme court in Hawai'i. She had a colleague who was a learned nun, who when she got sober gave her the medallion featuring a "Saint McTavish [or MacTavish]" who the nun told her was the patron saint of drunks. I'll bet this list could grow to be a long one. A good year to all of you, Bob W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3988. . . . . . . . . . . . AA No. 3? From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 7:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Some time between Dr. Bpb's last drink and the when Bill and Dr. Bob first heard of Bill D., there was a man named Eddie R who was sober for at least a few days. In the book Dr. Bob And The Good Old Timers, his escapades are described in the Chapter beginning on page 76. He was apparently sober off and on the summer of 1935. Bill D's wife remembers Eddie being sober when Bill D. got out of the hospital on July 4, 1935. She is also quoted as saying "When Bill D. came out of the hospital Dr. Bob had only been sober three weeks. I thought they'd been sober for years. I think my husband thought so too." Eddie did not stay sober for any long strech in the early days, but eventually put together at least 7 years of continuous sobriety and visited Bill in New York at the office. He said he was the first one to get the program, and the first one to reject it. Jim L. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3989. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Significant January Dates in A.A. History From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 11:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've got a scanned copy of Bill's written promises in his family bible. The specific date of his third promise was January 12, 1929. Bill wrote: "To tell you once more that I am finished with it. I love you." _____ From: chesbayman56 Subject: Significant January Dates in A.A. History "Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3990. . . . . . . . . . . . 60th anniv. of AA in Great Britain, plus new UK GSO address From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2007 8:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Apropos the film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions which is available from the United Kingdom GSO. The UK's GSO is moving this month to larger premises. The new address will be: PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green, York YO1 7NJ. Telephone and email addresses stay the same. By the way, it is the 60th anniversary of the foundation of AA in Great Britain in March this year. Regards, Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3991. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Patron saints of alcoholism From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2007 2:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Also being considered is Fr. Alfred Pampalon, born in Levis, Quebec and entombed at St. Anne de Beaupre north of Quebec City. FMI, see http://repchret.chadcom.org/chapelle/pampalon1.html George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3992. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant January Dates/Questions From: Dennis M. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2007 5:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a couple of questions relative to the significant dates in AA history. Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001. Who is Bob B.? Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis I remember doing some research at the New York archives and noted that in 1946 the first group of what I suspect were predominantly black members located in the New York Harlem community called itself the "St. Nicholas Interracial Group." I noticed that several more groups came into existence during the late 1940's/early '50's also were listed as "Interracial" groups. We know they would not have referred to themselves as "black" in those days. Was it their decision to call their groups "Interracial" or was it another decision maker? I always assumed that the reference to interracial was a desire by those groups to convey the message that anyone was welcome in their groups while we know that not every group of AA in that timeframe was welcoming to black alcoholic members. Dennis Mardon - - - From Glenn Chesnut: Although the first two black members in South Bend did not come in until 1948, the fullest account of early black AA people is, I believe, still the one given in "The Factory Owner and the Convict" and "The St. Louis Gambler and the Railroad Man," with full accounts given in these early black members' own words. See: http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kstl1.html Plus additional materials on John Shaifer, etc., at http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html and "Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary- South Bend Axis" at http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html In South Bend, one of the first two black members eventually formed an "Interracial Group," where the title was designed to make it clear that white AA's were perfectly welcome, but that there were going to be black people there if they were still too prejudiced to handle this. That was the sole reason for giving the group that name. But Brownie, the other key black leader in South Bend, was nevertheless opposed to the formation of this group, and Goshen Bill (the key black leader in the Elkhart/Goshen/ Kosciuscko county area) was extremely opposed (to say the least) to having a group like that. Goshen Bill in particular said that "he had gotten drunk with white men, Mexicans, and Apache Indians," and that you didn't start getting well from alcoholism until you learned that alcohol affected all human beings the same way, and that they all got sober the same way. This simply paralleled debates going on among black Americans in the period after school integration started, where you had those who embraced integration fully on one side of the spectrum, and a new group of black separatists arising on the other extreme, along with everything else in between. The "Interracial Group" in South Bend was not a black separatist group however. The name was merely a signal to prejudiced white people that if they showed up at this meeting, they had better stick their prejudice in their coat pockets, because there were going to be some very good recovering black alcoholics there at that meeting every week. That group finally withered away around 1990 when it became an anachronism. No one was surprised any longer to walk into an AA meeting in South Bend, and see lots of black people at some of these meetings, and you didn't have to "warn people" in advance. (Thank goodness!) What is significant to me is that all the material on early black AA history was included in the material mentioned above, NOT because of any desire to write "black history." Bill Hoover, Brownie, and Goshen Bill in particular were practically worshiped by everybody in AA in north central Indiana, and their memories are still kept in honor to this day, because they spoke with such enormous wisdom, and got so many people sober of all skin colors. They were simply AA at its very best. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3993. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Just for today card From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2007 9:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Seems the AA usage of the Just For Today card comes and goes, but the Card is part of Al-Anon Family Groups conference-approved literature that is regularly emphasized and distributed for Alateen use. This thread lingers, group, and within the past week I've seen some new interpretations. AAWS never undertook this venture, perhaps the "Where Do I Go From Here?" bookmark works in a similar way... Here's an AA-principle inspired piece, courtesy of a member of another egroup (indiana fourth dimension recovery), with thanks to Jerry O.: JUST FOR TODAY 1. I WILL TRY TO LIVE THROUGH THIS DAY ONLY, AND NOT TACKLE MY WHOLE LIFE'S PROBLEM AT ONCE. I CAN DO THINGS FOR 12 HOURS THAT WOULD APPALL ME IF I HAD TO KEEP IT UP FOR A LIFETIME. THIS ESPECIALLY INCLUDES THE 12 STEPS. 2. I WILL BE HAPPY! THIS ASSUMES THAT WHAT ABRAHAM LINCOLN SAID IS TRUE, THAT "MOST FOLKS ARE ABOUT AS HAPPY AS THEY MAKE UP THEIR MINDS TO BE." GOD INTENDED FOR US TO BE HAPPY, JOYOUS AND FREE. I WILL AVOID THE DELIBERATE MANUFACTURE OF MISERY. 3. I WILL TRY TO ADJUST MYSELF TO WHAT IS, AND NOT TRY TO ADJUST EVERYTHING TO MY DESIRES. I WILL TAKE MY FAMILY, MY BUSINESS, AND MY LICKS AS THEY COME AND FIT MYSELF TO THEM JUST AS THE SERENITY PRAYER SUGGEST. 4. I WILL TAKE CARE OF MY BODY. I WILL EXERCISE IT, CARE FOR IT, NOURISH IT, NOT ABUSE OR NEGLECT IT, SO THAT IT WILL BE A PERFECT MACHINE FOR GOD'S BIDDING. 5. I WILL STRENGTHEN MY MIND THROUGH PRAYER AND MEDITATION. I WILL LEARN SOMETHING USEFUL. I WILL NOT BE A MENTAL LOAFER AND SEEK ONLY THAT WHICH IS COMFORTABLE TO ME. I WILL READ SOMETHING, THE BIG BOOK, SCRIPTURES OR SPIRITUAL LITERATURE, THAT REQUIRES THOUGHT, EFFORT AND CONSIDERATION. 6. I WILL EXERCISE MY SOUL BY SEEKING AND DOING GOD'S WILL. I WILL DO A GOOD DEED AND NOT LET ANYONE KNOW ABOUT IT. I WILL DO AT LEAST TWO THINGS I DO NOT WANT TO DO. I WILL REPRESENT THE PRINCIPLES OF AA IN ALL OF MY AFFAIRS. 7. I WILL BE AGREEABLE SEEKING TO BRING PEACE AND HARMONY, RATHER THAN CONFLICT AND CONFUSION TO EVERY SITUATION. I WILL LOOK AS WELL AS I CAN, DRESS AS BECOMINGLY AS POSSIBLE, TALK LOW, ACT COURTEOUSLY, BE LIBERAL WITH PRAISE, CRITICIZE NOT AT ALL, NOR FIND FAULT WITH ANYTHING. I WILL NOT TRY TO REGULATE OR IMPROVE ANYONE. 8. I WILL WORK THE PROGRAM OF AA TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY. I WILL TRY TODAY TO ELIMINATE ONE OF MY DEFECTS OF CHARACTER--SELFISHNESS, DISHONESTY, RESENTMENT OR FEAR--FROM MY LIFE TODAY. BUT I WILL NOT FALL PREY TO UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS. I WILL SEEK ONLY PROGRESS IN THIS AREA, NOT PERFECTION. 9. I WILL START MY DAY WITH QUIET TIME. THIRTY MINUTES IS DESIRABLE, BUT IF I CAN ONLY DO TWO OR THREE MINUTES THAT IS FAR BETTER THAN NONE AT ALL. IN THIS TIME I WILL SAY PLEASE GOD TAKE MY WILL AND GUIDE MY LIFE. I WILL THANK GOD SO AS TO GET A BETTER PERSPECTIVE ON LIFE. 10. I WILL BE UNAFRAID. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID TO BE HAPPY. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID TO ENJOY WHAT IS BEAUTIFUL. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID TO LOVE AND TO BELIEVE THAT THOSE I LOVE, LOVE ME. I WILL SEEK HONESTY, UNSELFISHNESS, LOVE AND PURITY AS MY DESIRED STATE OF BEING TODAY. 11. I WILL LET GRATITUDE DRIVE MY ACTIONS, RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO GOSSIP AND CRITICIZE, REJECT RESENTMENT, TRY TO BE KIND AND GO OUT OF MY WAY TO DO A GOOD DEED FOR SOMEONE. 12. I WILL OPEN UP MY HEART, MY LIFE AND MY HOME TO THE STILL SUFFERING ALCOHOLIC WITH THE REALIZATION THAT I AM THE RECIPIENT OF ANOTHER ALCOHOLIC'S GRATITUDE. NO TASK SHALL BE TO GREAT AND NO SOUL TO SMALL FOR ME UNDERTAKE AS A THANKFUL BLESSING FOR THE LIFE I DO NOT FULLY DESERVE, BUT SO RICHLY ENJOY. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3994. . . . . . . . . . . . The Bob P Book update to AACOA From: feelgoodcp . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2007 10:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was wondering if anyone had a PDF copy of the book draft that Bob P. (Pearson)(sp) worked on so long and could never get finished, not because of the author but because of the way AA had grown. I guess the conference has just surrendered to the fact it cannot be done. As I recall a draft had been placed before one conference and if so that would be what I would be looking for, the conference literature attendees should have gotten a draft, anyone have any information? Gary R. Please contact me directly at: feelgoodcp@yahoo.com (feelgoodcp at yahoo.com) [From the moderator: the Yahoo group system does not having a "forwarding button," so if you have a copy, please send it directly to Gary.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3995. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Significant January Dates in A.A. History From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2007 11:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This date should make the list, seeing how Dr. Jung replied within a week: Jan. 23, 1961 - Bill W. sends an appreciation letter, which he considers long overdue, to Dr. Carl Jung for his contribution to AA. Source: http://www.barefootsworld.net/wilsonletter.html Chris IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3996. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2007 7:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Chris, Al Speckman sounds like the name, or is at least close. I believe he was the fellow who wrote the Responsibility Declaration. Re Emmet Fox, I've been a devotee of his writings for more than fifty years. I agree that some of our terms came from Emmet, and I commented on this in a short article which Glenn posted on his website. Please visit: http://www.hindsfoot.com/Fox1.html. One very nice thing about Fox's writings is that he made it a point to avoid words and terms that are not in common usage. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: chris mahl I believe his name was Al Speckman. I will dig out the reference and send it along. Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill, Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the city. I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and phrases of Emmet's. I'll send along another note with more specifics. Best from NYC. Chris M. On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox > contains the following sentence: > > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the > men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous > co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result > of this connection early AA groups often went > to hear Fox." > > If this statement is correct, can anyone in > our web group give me this man's name? > > Glenn Chesnut, South Bend IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3997. . . . . . . . . . . . Early Grapevine Issues From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2007 10:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there anyone out there who has a complete set of Grapevines? I need covers from 1948 to mid 1950's nov85_gr@graceba.net (nov85_gr at graceba.net) __________________________________ From the moderator: please contact John Wikelius directly at that email address, if you can help him. Remember that the Yahoo group system has no "forward" button that I can click on to forward messages which have been sent to the AAHistoryLovers, where I can send them on to a specific individual. The only three options are "Post" (to the entire group) or "Edit" or "Delete." I am assuming that John needs something not available from the version available online. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3998. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2007 8:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was under the impression that Al was one of the first editors of the Grapevine and that his mother lived in Cleveland. --- chris mahl wrote: > I believe his name was Al Speckman. > > I will dig out the reference and send it along. > > Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill, > Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats > and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the > city. > > I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs > in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and > phrases of Emmet's. > > I'll send along another note with more specifics. > > Best from NYC. > > Chris M. > > > On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut > wrote: > > > > The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox > > contains the following sentence: > > > > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the > > men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous > > co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result > > of this connection early AA groups often went > > to hear Fox." > > > > If this statement is correct, can anyone in > > our web group give me this man's name? > > > > Glenn Chesnut, South Bend > > > ----------------------- > Chris Mahl > 10 Ventures > PDA 917-902-4980 > Fax 18668230272 > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3999. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Patron saints of alcoholism From: acorelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2007 4:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here in Mexico there is a tongue in cheek retablo to the Patron Saint of AA: San Expedido (pedido is slang for drunk). It comes complete with tiny beer bottles under a circle with a slash through it ... quite a charming piece of folk art. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4000. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Just for today card From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2007 9:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I guess I'm confused [again :) ] What I have been thinking this thread was about was a bookmark size card that has "Just for Today" and a prayer by a Fra. Giovanni on one side. And on the other it has a "Tenth Step Checklist". I'll type it out as it appears on what I have and paste it in below. Could someone help me out and clarify what is on the Al-Anon card or the one used in England? ------- side 1 ------- Just For Today I salute you; There is nothing I can give you which you have not got; but there is much, very much that, while I cannot give it, you can take. No Heaven can come to us unless our hearts find rest in today. Take Heaven! No peace lies in the future which is not hidden in this present little instant. Take peace! The gloom of the world is but a shadow. Behind it, yet within our reach is joy. There is radiance and glory in the darkness could we but see, and to see, we have only to look; I beseech you to look. And so, at this time I greet you, not quite as the world sends greetings, but with profound esteem, and with prayer that for you now and forever the day breaks, and the shadows flee away. Fra. Giovanni - 1513 A.D. ------- side 2 ------- TENTH STEP CHECKLIST 1. Conscious Contact (a) Did I start my day with a conscious contact with God as I understand Him? (b) Did I start my day with "Please"? (c) Did I start my day asking for sobriety and guidance? 2. Did I try to be pleasant to everyone? 3. Did I go out of my way to be kind or to do a good deed for someone? 4. Did I demonstrate gratitude in my life? 5. Did I totally reject resentment? 6. Did I resist the PLOMS? (Poor little old me's) 7. Did I indulge in any _________________ ? (Your favorite character defect) 8. Did I resist the temptation to gossip or criticize? 9. Did I have an AA contact today? (reading, phone, or meeting) 10. Did I renew at any time during the day my conscious contact with God as I understand Him? (A quiet time, a meditation break) 11. Will I close my day with "Thanks"? 12. ______________________________________ ______________________________________ ______________________________________ ______________________________________ (Fill in your own or another person's favorite daily aid to sobriety) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4001. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al Steckman (correct spelling) From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2007 7:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chris, I just pulled this up. It appears that the name was "Steckman," not "Speckman." Mel Barger - - - Alcoholics Anonymous and Other Twelve-Step Programs in Relation to New Thought The most important connection of AA and New Thought was by means of the writings of popular New Thought writer Emmet Fox. Igor I. Sikorsky, Jr., in his AA's Godparents: Carl Jung, Emmet Fox, Jack Alexander (Minneapolis: CompCare Publishers, 1990, p. 20), says: Perhaps Emmet Fox's fundamental contribution to AA was the simplicity and power of The Sermon on the Mount as well as his other books that set forth in very simple language the truths of the New Thought philosophy. Sikorski especially refers to Fox's emphasis on living in the present, similar to AA's teaching one to live a day at a time. He finds another similarity in nonownership of property by AA and the Church of the Healing Christ, of Fox, who used to speak in large public halls, primarily in New York. The essential impossibility of holding a mindset inconsistent with one's lifestyle is another parallel. Sikorski says, "Five of the original stories in the Big Book were by early AA members deeply influenced by Emmet Fox (p. 23)." Sikorsky also notes (p. 19) that an early recovering alcoholic who worked with co-founder Bill Wilson was Al Steckman, whose mother was Fox's secretary, and that as a result of this connection early AA groups often would go to listen to Fox. A valuable writing is "New Thought and 12 Step Recovery From Addiction: Practical American Spiritualities" by Kenneth E. Hart, from Spiritual and Religious Issues in Behaviour Change, 9: 3-5. Hart's longer presentation on this topic to the Society for the Study of Metaphysical Religion is expected to be published in its journal. ----- Original Message ----- From: chris mahl Subject: Re: Emmet Fox's secretary and Al S. I believe his name was Al Speckman. I will dig out the reference and send it along. Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill, Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the city. I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and phrases of Emmet's. I'll send along another note with more specifics. Best from NYC. Chris M. On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox > contains the following sentence: > > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the > men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous > co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result > of this connection early AA groups often went > to hear Fox." > > If this statement is correct, can anyone in > our web group give me this man's name? > > Glenn Chesnut, South Bend IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4002. . . . . . . . . . . . Just for Today: Australian version From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2007 8:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Guys, This is the text of the Australian Just For Today Card. This is published by AA Australia and is available at all if not most meetings. I've been sober for two decades and can remember it being around for ever. Robin F. Sunshine Coast, Queensland 'Perfect one day, ideal the next'. _____ JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this day only and not tackle my whole life's problems at once. I can do something for twelve hours that would appall me if I felt that I had to keep it up for a lifetime. JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. This assumes to be true what Abraham Lincoln said, "that most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be". JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and not try to adjust everything to my own desires. I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself to it. JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind. I will study. I will learn something useful. I will not be a mental loafer. I will read something that requires mental effort and concentration. JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will not count. I will do at least two things I do not want to do - just for exercise. I will not show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they may be hurt, but today I will not show it. JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low, act courteously, criticise not one bit, not find fault with anything and not try to improve or regulate anybody except myself. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may not be able to follow it exactly, but I will have it. I will save myself from two pests; hurry and indecision. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour all by myself, and relax. During this half hour, some time, I will try to get a better perspective of my life. JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful, and to believe that as I give to the world, so the world will give to me. Published in Australia by the National Office of Alcoholics Anonymous, Australia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4003. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2007 2:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My mother-in-law used to attend many of Emmet Fox's talks in New York in the 30's and 40's. She said she would see Bill W. at many of them and that Bill always had a group of men with him. When I asked her if there was anything about Bill's group that she remembered, like fidgeting, coughing, smoking, talking...etc? She replied that the only thing that stood out, besides the fact that they all stayed close together, was that they were always "very well dressed". Doug B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4004. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Patron saints of alcoholism From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2007 4:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Also beloved among office workers and laborers in Mexico is San Lunes (Saint Monday), whose day is regularly observed by weekend bingers unable to show up :-) Arkie Koehl Honolulu On Jan 4, 2007, at 11:22, acorelis wrote: > Here in Mexico there is a tongue in cheek retablo > to the Patron Saint of AA: San Expedido (pedido > is slang for drunk). > > It comes complete with tiny beer bottles under > a circle with a slash through it ... quite a > charming piece of folk art. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4005. . . . . . . . . . . . Was there an early Grapevine editor from Cleveland? From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2007 7:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think I remember reading that there was an early editor of the Grapevine who came to us from Cleveland, and that his name was Tom X. or Tom Y. And that he also wrote our preamble. Was he one of the Tom's mentioned in "Pass It On"? Can anybody tell me more about him? Kilroy W. 4021 Club Philadelphia PA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4006. . . . . . . . . . . . Map for Akron tour From: mchugh1652 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2007 8:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I finally found the internet page with a map of the historic sites on it. You can see it here and print it out: http://akronaa.org/Archives/map/map.html As others have pointed out a guided tour is much better. Enjoy. Peter IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4007. . . . . . . . . . . . Pink cloud and Pink Seven From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2007 3:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Rdeneve670@cs.com (Rdeneve670 at cs.com) My name is Linda and I am an alcoholic, by the Grace of God sober 14 years. I am trying to find where the pink cloud is referenced, probably before the printing of the big book, would it be? Because it is just in little quote marks in the Big Book, as though they were referencing some other material. What does it mean? What is 'the pink seven' and is that still the same topic or a different one? - - - From the moderator: I checked in the two online concordances to the Big Book which I use: http://www.royy.com/concord.html http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/ The only place I could find the word pink used is in the famous and well known passage on p. 304 in the fourth edition of the Big Book (p. 348 in the third edition), in the story "Physician Heal Thyself!" The author was trying to get sober by reading and studying books ALONE, partly because he was a highly educated surgeon and did not think that the ordinary everyday people at the AA meetings (the butchers and bakers and carpenters) had anything to teach him. But they were spiritual books that he was reading, he said to himself, so that meant that he was working the program. And HE was an intellectual, and MUCH smarter than all these ordinary people in the program. (Lord help us, we ALL think we're smarter than everybody else in the meeting room when we first come in!) He said that, for a while, "I was way up on a pink cloud which is known as Pink Seven," but that he eventually started to feel miserable again, and started yearning to go back out and start drinking again in spite of all his reading. I don't see any quotation marks around the phrase, so I'm not sure what you mean by that part of your question. But I still think you're talking about the same passage I'm looking at. Maybe you saw it reprinted in an intergroup bulletin where somebody put quotation marks around it. At any rate, the message in this story was that the author didn't start getting a genuinely good new life in the program until he started ALSO paying attention to what the ordinary everyday people at the meetings had to teach him about leading a good life, and until he started actually working the twelve steps, and putting what he was learning into action in simple little everyday changes in his behavior (such as the way he acted about washing the dishes at home and that kind of thing). - - - In American slang back then, when you said that someone was "on a pink cloud," you meant that the person was in a state of temporary artificial euphoria. Being "on a pink cloud" meant that you had turned off all of your critical faculties and were temporarily living in this marvelous fantasy world where nothing ever went wrong or could go wrong. If you went out on a date with some guy, and came back feeling all romantic and starry eyed, and convinced that you had found "Mr. Wonderful," one of your friends might laugh and say, "well, you're on a pink cloud now, but wait and see what the guy looks like after a month or two of going out with him on a steady basis. Wait and find out how much you end up seeing him after football season starts in a couple of weeks!" Being "on a pink cloud" meant that you were living in a dream world, as opposed to living in the real, everyday world. It is easy to work ourselves up into a temporary "pink cloud" by reading spiritual books that talk about loving all humanity, or "feeling one with the all," or loving Jesus, or by standing around reciting the responsibility pledge with our eyes all starry. And there are people who try to work the AA program by hyping themselves up in that way, without doing a single thing to change their basic character, or to change their ways of actually behaving in everyday life. CHANGED BY GRACE is the mark of true twelve step spiritual progress. Real "life changing" as the Oxford Group put it. We have to start working on using the power of grace (freely given to us for our use) to heal all of our character defects. These are the character defects which make us angry all the time, have us attacking other people all the time and trying to bully other people into doing things our way, criticizing everybody else in the program and starting arguments all the time, refusing to help out on washing dishes, moving chairs and tables, shoveling snow, going to the grocery store to get milk or a loaf of bread. When we begin real spiritual growth, we start to heal these character defects, and then we start actually treating other people differently in all phases of our ordinary everyday life. I've seen people spend years trying to artificially hype themselves up onto a pink cloud by reading the Bible (or the Torah or the Koran), talking all the time about Jesus (or Moses or Mohammed or Buddha), or reciting the Four Absolutes with pious looks on their faces. The message of this story in the Big Book was that these things are NOT good things to do, if the only reason why we are doing them, is to artificially put ourselves into a temporary "pink cloud" euphoria. Or to put it all in five simple words, "faith without works is dead." - - - In ancient and medieval spirituality, when someone had a spiritual experience, it was believed that the soul had been transported up to one of the seven crystal spheres which they believed surrounded the planet earth. Each of these seven crystal spheres was called a "heaven." So somebody who had had a really ecstatic spiritual experience would say that "my soul was transported up to the seventh heaven," this being the best and most vivid kind of spiritual experience. In this passage in the Big Book, the writer is jokingly combining the two ideas and saying, in effect, "I wasn't just up on a pink cloud, I was up on the highest and most euphoric kind of pink cloud: Pink Seven!!!!" - - - On the seven heavens, see for example the last part of Dante's Divine Comedy, the part called the Paradiso, where his soul climbs up level by level until he has arrived at the seventh heaven (presided over by St. Bernard, the great medieval mystic), and he is granted a brief overpowering vision of the divine Love and Light which illumines and moves the entire universe: l’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle (the Love which moves the sun and all the other stars) But you see, Dante's vision is the right kind of spiritual experience. That is because he paid his dues first! He had first journeyed through his own personal inner hell in the Inferno (the first section of the Divine Comedy) and had learned that, surprisingly enough, God did not make any human soul stay in hell. All the souls in hell are allowed to leave the moment that they want to. The only requirement is that they admit that they were wrong! As long as they keep on giving alibis and excuses for their behavior, and blaming it on other people, they will never get out of hell. And then Dante had some more dues that he had to pay. In the middle part of the Divine Comedy, he had to climb the mountain of Purgatory, which he envisaged as a seven step recovery program, based on healing the character defects described by the Seven Deadly Sins. (The Mountain of Purgatory means "the Cleansing Mountain," from the Latin word purgo which means to clean, cleanse, wash off, purify.) Only after he had done the spiritual work which was necessary in order to heal his Anger, Pride, Envy, and so on, could he begin rising up through the Seven Heavens and arrive at the kind of authentic spiritual experience that he describes at the end. - - - What the little story in the Big Book is doing, is warning us that we can fool ourselves into believing that spiritual experience is gained by artificially hyping ourselves into "pious" emotional states, and singing hymns about how much we love Jesus (or Moses or Buddha or Mohammed), and talking all the time about how spiritual we are (in order to pridefully impress other people). The most we can get that way is artificial "pink cloud" spirituality. It is easy to get on a pink cloud by going to church for an hour on Sunday morning (or synagogue or a Buddhist temple), where I can get into an artificial emotional state, using the stained glass windows and pious music. But there are 168 hours in a week. It is in the other 167 hours that I need to learn how to start changing my behavior, where there are no stained glass windows and no solemn organ music playing in the background. Twelve step meetings force us to learn how to develop a spirituality which will work when there are no stained glass windows and no organ music and no chanting of beloved religious texts going on in the background: when the kids are screaming, the boss is criticizing my work, and the other people in the AA committee which is setting up the picnic aren't acting like I want them to act! And real spiritual experience can only be gained by FIRST journeying down into the hellish regions of our own minds and ferreting out all the anger and selfishness and self pity and fear, and taking responsibility for doing something about these character defects, and THEN by putting these new insights into action by changing the way we live every aspect of our daily lives. When I first learn how to help out with washing the dishes, when I first learn how to stop bullying other people and starting up quarrels and arguments all the time, when I learn how to stop attacking other people and putting them down all the time, when I learn how to start treating everyone around me (without exception) with the kind of real human respect with which I would wish to be treated, then and only then will I become fit someday (perhaps if God is willing) to ascend to the seventh heaven and obtain the vision of the true divine Light and Love which illumines and moves the entire universe. "Pink Seven" isn't real. That's me using my own fantasies to create an artificial and temporary illusion. The numinous reality of the divine Light and Love and Glory spreading through all the world IS real. But I have to CHANGE ME to obtain that. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) - - - P.S. USING THE SEARCH FUNCTION ON THE MESSAGE BOARD If you go the Message section of the AAHistoryLovers at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages there is a box at the top where you can search through all the past messages for particular words or phrases. If you put quotation marks around a set of words, it will search for those words in that order. A lot of the standard questions have already been asked in past years, so it can save a lot of time if a search is done first, to see if the question may already have been answered. So I'm trying to encourage people to use the search function, so they can get a quick answer (when one is already available) instead of having to wait around for several days. In this case though, when I did a search for "pink cloud" and "pink seven," the messages that were posted gave part of the explanation, but not all of it, so I'm filling in a few of the missing gaps in my response to your question. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4008. . . . . . . . . . . . Just for Today: Irish Version From: funen99 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2007 4:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I had a look today at the Irish "Just For Today" Card, which is approved by the AA General Service Conference in Ireland and noted on the back page "re-printed by Kind Permission AA GSO, GB". Fiona JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this day only and not tackle my whole life problem at once. I can do something for twelve hours that would appall me if I felt that I had to keep it up for a lifetime. JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be. JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and not try to adjust everything to my own desires. I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself to it. JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind. I will study. I will learn something useful. I will not be a mental loafer. I will read something that requires mental effort and concentration. JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will not count. I will do at least two things I do not want to do - just for exercise. I will not show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they may be hurt, but today I will not show it. JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low, act courteously, criticise not one bit, not find fault with anything and not try to improve or regulate anybody except myself. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may not be able to follow it exactly, but I will have it. I will save myself from two pests; hurry and indecision. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour all by myself, and relax. During this half hour, some time, I will try to get a better perspective of my life. JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful, and to believe that as I give to the world, so the world will give to me. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4009. . . . . . . . . . . . Legal to reprint Just for Today: Australian version? From: vvpeachy@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2007 11:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is this copyrighted? Or may another Intergroup Office produce these and sell for cost without any legal infringement? South Jersey Ginger We've been asked about these cards lots - especially Philadelphia's green card. The green card has been requested because our office is right across the Bridge. Our Literature Committee is interested in producing, but not interested in any legal confusion. Thank You for ALL of your input! Lots of Love and Laughter, Ginger F. and Ron B. Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. _____ In a message dated 1/6/2007 4:02:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, gentle_bear@optusnet.com.au writes: Hi Guys, This is the text of the Australian Just For Today Card. This is published by AA Australia and is available at all if not most meetings. I've been sober for two decades and can remember it being around for ever. Robin F. Sunshine Coast, Queensland 'Perfect one day, ideal the next'. _____ JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this day only and not tackle my whole life's problems at once. I can do something for twelve hours that would appall me if I felt that I had to keep it up for a lifetime. JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. This assumes to be true what Abraham Lincoln said, "that most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be". JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and not try to adjust everything to my own desires. I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself to it. JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind. I will study. I will learn something useful. I will not be a mental loafer. I will read something that requires mental effort and concentration. JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will not count. I will do at least two things I do not want to do - just for exercise. I will not show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they may be hurt, but today I will not show it. JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low, act courteously, criticise not one bit, not find fault with anything and not try to improve or regulate anybody except myself. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may not be able to follow it exactly, but I will have it. I will save myself from two pests; hurry and indecision. JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour all by myself, and relax. During this half hour, some time, I will try to get a better perspective of my life. JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful, and to believe that as I give to the world, so the world will give to me. Published in Australia by the National Office of Alcoholics Anonymous, Australia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4010. . . . . . . . . . . . Recordings of Emmet Fox speaking? From: sbanker914@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2007 7:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know if any of Emmet Fox's talks in New York City were recorded and if they are available somewhere? Susan NYC - - - dougb@aahistory.com writes: My mother-in-law used to attend many of Emmet Fox's talks in New York in the 30's and 40's. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4011. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pink cloud and Pink Seven From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2007 5:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The AA Grapevine published an article by Dr. Harry Tiebout in September 1955 titled The Pink Cloud and After. In the first few years of AA's existance it was a fairly coomon occurance to see a person take a one or two-year cake and then get drunk. The Fellowship was so concerned that it asked Dr. Tiebout to investigate this phenomena. What he found (and the article deals with) is the fact that people with any lenght of sobriety in the early days were not in abundance so the person who achieved a year or two was "special" and some them came to believe that they were "special" too. Some got drunk. Once it became common to have people with some time, the phenomena stopped. Tiebout refered to this as the "Pink Cloud." Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4012. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Legal to reprint Just for Today? From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2007 11:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are literally hundreds of web sites with the "Just for Today" poem. Some include nice artwork. Most say "Author Unknown" if anything. A few attribute it to Sibyl F. Partridge, probably a song lyric with Blanche Ebert Seaver. (Someone else can verify that.) I'm not a lawyer and I don't even play one at meetings but I'd say nobody is going to come after you for being the 500th person to print a card with that well-known poem on it. NOTE: I did find one site which apparently has the song as an audio file but it refused to play it for me because it is, "Not available in the United States and Canada due to possible copyright restrictions." - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) The AlAnon Just for Today bookmark is copyrighted. Tommy in Baton Rouge - - - From Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Sometimes the copyright applies only to the typesetting and artwork on that particular copy. Where if you reset the type, it's O.K., but if you photocopy it and start selling the photocopies you're infringing on their copyright. For AlAnon to copyright the text itself, they would have to show that they either wrote the text, or purchased the copyright from the person who actually wrote it. So the question is, not who has put out a copy with the words "copyrighted" on it, but who originally wrote it, and what the chain of ownership is, if any? And once something has shown up on hundreds of websites and cards sold in bookstores with nobody complaining, it will be considered as having fallen over into the public domain, and anybody will be able to use it who wants to. (The earliest edition of A Course on Miracles fell into the public domain, I think for that reason among others, and anybody can reprint that edition now, or post it on the internet.) The Just For Today card sounds to me like it's already turned into public domain, but you'd need to check with a good copyright and patent attorney to make sure. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4013. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Legal to reprint Just for Today? From: vvpeachy@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2007 7:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you so much for the input. I will bring this to my Intergroup Literature Committee and allow the committee system to prevail. I know our IG doesn't have sufficient money to hire a patent attorney. I'm sure that we can move a word or two to prevent it from being exact. ALL further suggestions are gladly accepted. Thanks again! South Jersey Ginger - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lots of Love and Laughter. Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4014. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2007 3:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been given to believe that on Jan. 5, 1939, Dr. Bob told Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get away from the Oxford Group atmosphere." Can anyone in the group tell me where I could find a copy of this letter? I understand that the basic issue was created by the Protestant/Catholic problems that existed at that time. The Oxford Group was a Protestantant evangelical movement, which meant that some Roman Catholic priests were telling the alcoholics among their parishioners that if they joined an Oxford-Group-linked AA group, they would be committing a mortal sin, would be excommunicated and barred from the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church, and would be condemned to hell in the world to come. George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4015. . . . . . . . . . . . Australian Just for Today Card LEGAL ISSUES From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2007 7:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Guys and sober greetings, Ginger F. and Ron B. asked if this card may be copyright protected. I have no idea about copyright of the Australian 'Just for Today' card for reprinting purposes. I'll leave that up to the legal eagles, the Australian National Service Office and World Service Office - and maybe even Al-anon. I have included the contact details for Australia below as well as the liturature catalogue reference. Regards Robin F. Sunshine Coast, Australia. Near the Great Barrier Reef - home of Nimo. _____ 08S-04 Just for Today Card AU $0.25 National Office AA (GSO) National Office of AA in Australia 48 Firth St, Arncliffe NSW 2205 Phone (02) 9599 8866 Fax (02) 9599 8844 E-mail: national.office@aa.org.au Website: www.aa.org.au IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4016. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Groups and Membership (Spring 1971) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2007 8:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Groups and Members Spring 1971 (from the April 1971 General Service Conference) United States: 9,541 Groups, 167,167 Members, 146 Lone Members Canada: 1,667 Groups, 25,957 Members, 51 Lone Members In Hospitals: 767 Groups, 18,604 Members In Prisons: 925 Groups, 32,481 Members Internationalists: 412 Members Total Above: 12,900 Groups, 244,818 Members Overseas (1970 count): 3,559 Groups, 66,632 Members Totals: 16,459 Groups, 311,450 Members (including non-reported members, actual membership is estimated at more than 500,000 worldwide) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4017. . . . . . . . . . . . The two 1947 editions of The Little Red Book From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2007 2:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Tommy Hickcox in Baton Rouge (cometkazie1 at cox.net) SUMMARY 1946: first edition/printing of The Little Red Book 1947: the one with the red cover seems to be the second edition/printing 1947: the one with the maroon cover seems to be the third edition/printing [Moderator's note: Ed Webster refers to them as "printings," but when substantial changes are made in the text, which is what Ed was doing at this stage, we normally refer to them today as separate "editions."] * * * * * * The Little Red Book had two printings in the year 1947 and there are differences between the two volumes. Opinions have been offered which of the volumes was printed first and which second. The covers, title and copyright pages are as follows: * * * * * * One’s cover is distinctively red while the other’s is a dull maroon. - - - The title page of the red volume has: An Interpretation of THE TWELVE STEPS of the ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS PROGRAM - - - While the maroon volume has: An Interpretation of Alcoholics Anonymous Program of the The Twelve Steps - - - The copyright pages are identical except the red volume adds: First Printing August, 1946 Second Printing January, 1947 * * * * * * This would imply to me that the red volume was the second printing. Printing numbers were not published again until much later. It seemed to me one could make an educated guess as to which came first by comparing text. If there was a change in the text, did the change carry over to the printings of 1948 and 1949 and assigned numbers four and five? Did one volume have material in common with the 4th and 5th printings and not the other 1947 printing? * * * * * * A quick check of the first several pages gives enough material to make an educated guess. Author’s Note: red is one paragraph of 17 lines; maroon is three paragraphs of 29 lines; 4th/5th: 3 paragraphs of 23 lines but the lines have more words in them. The wording is identical to the maroon. p. 9; para 4, sent 1: red-The new comer often . . .; maroon-The newcomer too often . . .; 4th/5th-The newcomer too often . . . p. 10; para 3; last sentence of maroon has * to footnote: Note paragraph 2, page 44, in the book, “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS”; red does not have the footnote. 4th and 5th have the footnote. p.11; para 2, sent 1: red: The alcoholics who have recovered through the Alcoholics Anonymous movement . . .; maroon: The alcoholics who have recovered through the Alcoholics Anonymous Fellowship . . .; 4th/5th: Fellowship * * * * * * There is a list of reasons for failures in the A.A. program starting at the bottom of p. 11. Red has 9 reasons listed and maroon has 10. The first seven reasons are exactly the same, but the rest differ: Red 8. Those who have not been harmed sufficiently by alcohol often fail because drinking is not a matter of life and death with them. This group generally involves the men and women with relatively short alcoholic histories. Maroon 8. Those who see in alcoholism a moral problem rather than an illness. Red 9. Those who accept only a part of the Twelve-Step Program, who will not try to live it in its entirety. Those who wish to put a distorted selfish interpretation on all of the steps for purposes of their own convenience. Maroon 9. Those with relatively short alcoholic histories, to whom drinking is more an inconvenience than a matter of life or death. Maroon 10. [There is no Red 10.] Those who accept only a part of the Twelve-Step Program, who will not try to live it in its entirety. Those who wish to put a distorted selfish interpretation on all of the steps for purposes of their own convenience. Note-This is the same as Red 9. 4th/5th: 4th the same as maroon. 5th adds another reason. p. 13, para 1: Red has alcoholism as a disease and Maroon as an illness. 4th/5th have illness. p. 13, para 2, last sentence: Maroon adds to the end of the sentence--have faith--keep open minded, and adds the footnote- *Read page 50 in the book, “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS” 4th/5th have the addition. I did not proceed farther with this analysis as I thought there was enough evidence to consider the red volume to be the second printing and the maroon volume to be the third printing as the changes the maroon volume has were carried on to later printings. I unfortunately do not have a first printing. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4018. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Peabody From: Joseph Trevaskis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2007 6:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, Does anyone have or know where I can get a photo of Richard Rodgers Peabody? I've been working on a project of putting together photos of those who influenced AA's beginnings. Thanks. In Love and Service, Joe - - - Moderator's note: Peabody was the author of "The Common Sense of Drinking" (Boston: Little, Brown and Co., 1930, 1931). There is an Adobe Acrobat PDF version of the book available online at: http://www.aabibliography.com/pdffiles/CommonSenseDrinkPeabody.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4019. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2007 12:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If a letter was sent to Ruth Hock, it would be on file in the GSO Archives in New York. YIS Shakey Mike Gwirtz REMEMBER: 11th National Archives Workshop Sept.6-9 in Phoenix,Az IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4020. . . . . . . . . . . . We The People Radio program 1939 From: leeannplatner . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2007 8:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We are searching for an episode of WE THE PEOPLE radio program from April 1939 featuring Gabrielle Heatter with guest, Morgan R and his discussion of AA. We produced the program, and have a transcript, but we do not have a copy of the audio recording and the holdings we donated to the Library of Congress do not include this episode. We would love to borrow and/or pay to have a dub made if any member has an actual copy of this recording. Please contact me if you have or know where we can find this recording. Please call or contact me at LeeAnn.platner@nbcuni.com (LeeAnn.platner at nbcuni.com) Thank you so much! LeeAnn Platner Director, Clip Licensing NBC Studios and Bravo TV 100 Universal City Plaza Building 4250 3rd Floor Universal City, CA 91608 818-777-5147 Phone 818-866-2574 Fax IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4021. . . . . . . . . . . . The early printings of The Little Red Book From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2007 6:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think I have gotten this right now, at http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html, where I have tried to lay out the sequence of printings of The Little Red Book from 1946 to 1949. The question of whether there were two print runs in 1949 is based on information from Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona, but unfortunately the accuracy of my statement about these two print runs depends on how good my memory was of what Jack told me. I have worded it now as follows: _______________________________ The first printing appeared in 1946, two separate printings were done in 1947, there was another printing in 1948, and Jack H. says that there were actually two in 1949. Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book during that period, and in fact kept on making changes in the book all the way to the end of his life in 1971. Tommy H. (Baton Rouge, Louisiana) had made a study of the two 1947 printings in Message 4017 in the AAHistoryLovers, see http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4017 He established that the one with the distinctively red cover has to be the earlier of the two 1947 printings. It says that it came out in January 1947. The other 1947 printing, which has a dull maroon cover, must have appeared later in that year. This later printing embodies a number of textual changes which were carried over to the fourth and fifth printings. My statement above that there were two 1949 printings is based on a telephone conversation which I had with Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona. If my memory serves me correctly, Jack told me that the only difference between the two was that the first printing had a minor typesetting error (a segment of text inserted upside down or something of that sort) and was recalled as soon as this was discovered, so that not many copies of the first printing actually got out. But I have not verified this with my own eyes. Jack had Ed Webster's papers, and may have found this out from correspondence between Ed and the printer. Let us however not quote my statement that there were two 1949 printings as gospel truth, until someone can find a copy of a faulty version of the 1949 printing and corroborate this. I am having to remember a long ago telephone conversation, and my memory of what Jack actually said could be faulty. And Tommy H. in Baton Rouge says that the 1950 edition says that it was the sixth printing, the 1951 edition says that it was the seventh printing, and so on. So if there were two print runs made in 1949 as Jack H. says, it also seems clear that Ed Webster did not regard these two print runs as separate "printings" or "editions" in the full sense. - - - - - - So perhaps the best way of putting this would be to list the editions as follows: 1st edition August 1946 2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover) 3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover) 4th edition 1948 5th edition 1949 (?? which may have had two print runs with a typesetting error in the first print run ??) 6th edition 1950 7th edition 1951 (and so on) - - - - - - Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should be taken as a kind of benchmark version for many purposes, since this was the last edition where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book. And we should remember that changes made in The Little Red Book after Ed Webster's death on June 3, 1971, which are numerous, were done by editors at the Hazelden Foundation who believed that they "could write better" about alcoholism than Ed Webster. The current Hazelden version is not bad, and is perfectly usable for newcomers to the A.A. program, but I have not found any rewordings which they made which were an improvement in any way at all, and the idea of rewriting a classic text without warning the reader about it in a footnote is something which no responsible publisher ever does. You don't rewrite Shakespeare or Hemingway or Faulkner or Mark Twain when you publish new editions. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4022. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2007 1:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Shakey Mike here, I recently purchased a book from Dr Bob's library that has his signature in it(full name) that belonged to his daughter, who was at that time (1951) Mrs E. W. Gailbraith, 26 W. York Street, Akron 10, Oh. Dr. Bob signed his name as R H Smith 855 Ardmore Ave. Akron 1943. This book is the only book in the Kay Stewart Collection that is signed by Dr. Bob. It was given by Sue to Kay Stewart who was involved in the beginnings of the Dr. Bob house. Is there any more history of how Dr. Bob's house came to be? Any more on Kay Miller other than an old post on AAHL? Any info on Oscar Futral who is the first Akron man to carry the message behind the walls? The newly posted collection is available to see at http://abookman.com/aacatalog.htm It shows alot of early Akron AA memorabelia. Other than Dr Bob's Big Book at GSO Archives and his books at Dr Bob's house and Akron Intergroup, are there many other Dr. Bob signatures out there? If you want a copy of that inscription from his book please e-mail me at: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Philadelphia, Pennysylvania ____________________________________ Mike, He signed a copy of the first edition of The Little Red Book which Ed Webster had sent him, before passing it on to someone else. See http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html It ended up in Jack H.'s collection (Scottsdale, Arizona). Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4023. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe and Charlie workshops From: dobbo101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2007 5:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me if the Big Book workshops that Joe and Charlie once ran are still going on. How would one contact them? I'm in the UK and would love to go to one. My e-mail address is: dobbo101@yahoo.com (dobbo101 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4024. . . . . . . . . . . . Later history of the Oxford Group From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2007 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a nice little summary of the later history of the Oxford Group at: http://www.uk.initiativesofchange.org/index.php?sn=2,2#top Could AA have in fact remained linked to the Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of the OG and the way they were evolving? In AA, we tend to focus only on the parts of the Oxford Group that we are interested in, and ignore other things that were essential parts of the movement. A true assessment of the nature of the Oxford Group in the 1930's however has to make sense out of where the movement has ended up in 2007. Otherwise we are falsifying our picture of the Oxford Group which Bill W. and Dr. Bob had joined. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1908 Frank Buchman Buchman, an American Lutheran minister of Swiss descent who was the originator of Initiatives of Change, has a spiritual experience of release from bitterness in crucial relationships that alters the course of his life. 1927 The Oxford Group Buchman's experience in 1908 convinces him that moral compromise destroys human character and relationships and that moral clarity is a prerequisite for building a just society. His ideas take root at Oxford and in some American universities and his work becomes known as the 'Oxford Group'. 1935 Alcoholics Anonymous Buchman's ideas spread through the 1930s into many sectors and on to other continents. Alcoholics Anonymous is established in 1935 as a direct result of the liberating experiences which some people find through their contact with the Oxford Group. 1938 NAME CHANGE: Moral Re-Armament As European nations re-arm for war, Buchman calls for 'moral and spiritual re-armament' as the way to build a 'hate-free, fear-free, greed-free world'. Following World War II, Moral Re-Armament (MRA), as it becomes known, launches a program of moral and spiritual reconstruction to foster change in private and public life based on a change in motivation and character. Buchman also emphasised the importance of faith. He believed that God has a purpose for people's lives and for mankind as a whole, and he encouraged people to seek God's wisdom in regular times of silence and reflection. Buchman, a devout Christian, described Moral Re-Armament as 'the good road of an ideology inspired by God upon which all can unite. Catholic, Jew and Protestant, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and Confucianist - all find they can change, where needed and travel along this good road together.' 1946 Caux, Switzerland MRA opens an international conference center in Caux, Switzerland, which is made possible through the generosity and hard work of hundreds of Swiss citizens. 1947 Germans to Caux At a time when any contact with the Germans is extremely difficult, Buchman and his colleagues invite Germans to Caux. Over the next four years growing number of Germans and French come to Caux and their encounters become the basis of a massive development in reconciliation. Buchman is later decorated by both the German and French governments for his contribution to European reconciliation. 1949 Reconciliation Conferences at Caux and similar ones at Mackinac Island in the US, achieve further public recognition through several other major contributions to international developments in the post-war years. Notably the part played in the reconciliation of Japan with her South-East Asian neighbors, and in the achievement of independence by several African countries without major bloodshed. 1950 MRA Expands By the 1950s, casts of plays presenting MRA's ideas are traveling all over the world. Centers are established in Latin America, India, Japan and several countries in Africa. 1961 Buchman Dies When Buchman dies in 1961, the former British political journalist Peter Howard assumes the leadership of MRA, but four years later he too dies. Without a clearly identified leadership to ensure cohesion, unresolved differences among those taking responsibility begins to surface. 1965 Up With People In some countries a new approach is tried, concentrating on the younger generation, and in others more traditional ways continue. Up With People, which develops into a global educational program, becomes a spin-off from MRA. After a period of uncertainty and dissension, trust is slowly re-established, with valuable lessons learned. 1968 Asia Plateau 1968 sees the opening of Asia Plateau - a major international center for the training of people from industry, education and other national sectors in Panchgani, India. 1970s Period of Consolidation With reconciliation a primary need in many parts of the world, much of MRA's work concentrates on supporting peace-making initiatives in Africa and Asia. 1980s Britain During this period in Britain some of the work is focused on bettering industrial relations at the big car and steel manufacturing plants, important at that time for economic stability, and some on the growing multiculturalism of the country's large cities. 1990s Collapse of Communism The collapse of Communism triggers new needs and opportunities for the rebuilding of democracy in the post-Soviet world. This becomes one of the major focal points in the 90s. 1990s New Initiatives Other initiatives that develop throughout the 90s are Hope in the Cities, which is created to bridge the racial divide in the US; Clean Election Campaigns in Taiwan, Brazil and Kenya; and a continuing concern for the creation of moral and spiritual infrastructure for development in both rich and poorer nations. 2001 Name Change: INITIATIVES OF CHANGE With the approach of the new millennium, there is world-wide recognition that the words 'moral re-armament' no longer hold the same resonance as they did in 1938. In 2001 the new name Initiatives of Change (IofC) is announced to the world's media by the Caux President, Dr. Cornelio Sommaruga (former President of the international Red Cross), and Professor Rajmohan Gandhi, grandson of the Mahatma. 2006 Today While ways of expressing truth, and methods of coordinating the global work, continue to change as succeeding generations take on this particular responsibility for the moral and spiritual renewal of society, the essential philosophy of IofC remains the same - that personal change can lead to social, economic and political change. With its emphasis on experience rather than philosophy, it provides a focus where people of different religious and political persuasions can meet without compromising their own beliefs, and be part of a global network committed to working for change in the world. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4025. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie workshops From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2007 2:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No they are not. Joe McQ has become the victim of Parkinson's disease and was replaced by Joe McC. Charlie P. recently had a hip replacement and Joe McC. has had a number of serious health problems. In God's love and service, Cliff Bishop http://www.ppgaadallas.org - - - - - - From: Ollie Olorenshaw ollie_olorenshaw@yahoo.com.au (ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au) As far as I am aware Joe and Charlie are no longer conducting workshops but recordings of past workshops are available from various places. Here is one. www.12steptapes.com and another www.xa-speakers.org best wishes Ollie IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4026. . . . . . . . . . . . Old AA meeting in Palos Park Illinois From: Dan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2007 9:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I belong to a very old AA group and am trying to figure out how old it is, and any other information on this group that has been meeting since at least 1940. The group is now called the Top of the Hill Group and meets on Monday nights off Southwest Highway [Route 7]. Thanx in kind and service dan babs IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4027. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2007 12:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mike, You may want to be looking into the story of Wesley Parrish (Florida) who spearheaded the movement to purchase and make Dr. Bob's Home available to all of us, also, two folks around today that you should interview are Akron Intergroup's Archivist Gail L. and Don C., current Chairman of the Board at Dr. Bob's House, they were both involved early on, and should have some very interesting stories to tell. I imagine that you know Ray G. too, Dr. Bob's House's Archivist, a lot of materials and wonderful photographs ar available there. Dr. Bob's daughter Sue stayed at the York St. address until the end of her life. Kay Stewart (Grand Dame of Akron's Flame Breakfast Group) was active until the end of her life, serving as a Vice-Chairman on the Board of the Akron Intergroup Council in her last years and speaking at the Intergroup's Anniversary Dinner just before her passing. Her accomplishments were considerable and I am sure that her story (and probably that lead) is available on tape (try contacting the Akron Intergroup Archives...they are working now to put together "Voices from the Past" to be utilized in conjunction with the Archives page at the AkronAA.org. website and they have an aggressive program going to digitize remaining materials for back up use while the originals are preserved. Oscar Futrell was the first man in Alcoholics Annonymous that I ever met...in the Summit County Jail in 1971...he was quite candid... I distictly remember him telling me "I believe that you are an Alcoholic... this program will save your life...If you don't want what we've got then go die damn you!!!" For a long time I never trusted Oscar, whenever I saw him he was either in a uniform or a suit... (that same check Jacket in which he apperars in so many photographs...even at Dr. Bob's graveside monument with Bill W.) I trust Oscar today... that is what I have come to understand... Oscar was sponsored by Dr. Bob and was a great friend of Bill Wilson..I've been told it was Oscar that Drove Bill around on his visits to Akron. What he "tried" to carry to me was the straight message of Alcoholic's Annonymous although I did not understand that then, Guess I was more interesterd in the doughnuts (glazed), the "ready-made" cigarettes available at the meeting and the packs of Bugler Tobacco you could get if you asked for it...to take back to the range. I think the most important thing was perhaps the fact that going to the meeting allowed me to communicate with the other inmates from the different floors of the jail...yes communication was the great thing then and subtly? I began to get the message. This is hearsay, but my Sponsor (who was for many years the Chairman of the Founders Foundation) explained to me that at the end of his life Sgt. Oscar Futrell suffered from alzheimers, or something similar, and that it was very difficult and sad when people tried to take him to meetings. If you want to contact me directly I will do what I can to help you.... Be a good guy and keep you powder dry, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4029. . . . . . . . . . . . Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2007 2:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Getting feedback about Dr Bob and some amusing anecdotes about Him, Kay and Oscar. Does anyone know more about Wesley putting up his own money to buy Dr.Bob's House and how he was paid back? This man needs to be given the credit he deserves if what I am hearing is true. Having fun in AA, Shakey Mike Gwirtz See you in Phoenix Sept.6-9 for the 11th Nat'l Archives Workshop [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4030. . . . . . . . . . . . Mustard Seed Group - Chicago From: frescacan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2007 8:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the address of the first Mustard Seed Group location? I know it was in a basement apartment, near Astor and Division, in Chicago, but I'm really curious about the exact address. Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4031. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mustard Seed Group - Chicago From: remcuster@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2007 4:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Have you checked with the Chicago Area Service Office @ 312/346-1475 ?? The Area Code may have changed to 773, (it's been a long time since I've been in touch with them). Hank Groat Piney Flats, TN. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4032. . . . . . . . . . . . Frieda M-M From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2007 10:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Fiona Dodd" (fionadodd at eircom.net) I received the following communiqué from the Archivist of the Avon South Intergroup on the passing of Frieda M-M. On a personal note, the Archivist's parents were stationed in Washington D.C. during 1941. (Her brother was born in the Bethesda Military Hospital two days before Pearl Harbour) There was a lot of entertaining and inspiration offered by the British Ambassador and her mother used to tell of the parties held at the Embassy. When her mother herself got sober in Alcoholics Anonymous in Bath in the Eighties, which was not long before her mother died in 1992, it was realised that John and Frieda who were Butler and Housekeeper to the British Ambassador in Washington would have undoubtedly served her parents their drinks on many occasions! It was there that the seeds of her mother's alcoholism were sown and it was in the Bath group which John started in 1955 that her mother got sober twenty-five years later! John M. served as the first sponsor to Travers of Bristol until his death in 1964. Fiona _ _ _ _ _ _ Frieda M-M R.I.P. _ _ _ _ _ _ Only today did the news come of the passing of Frieda M-M who died on 17th December, 2005. Frieda was John M's wife and aided all his efforts to establish Alcoholics Anonymous in the West Country when they left their employment with His Excellency the British Ambassador in Washington and returned to England in 1947 with his redundancy pay of £100 to seek employment and carry THIS message. In 1948 John held the first meeting known in the West Country at Mickleton, Glos. John did obtain employment and worked diligently and in 1955 helped open the Bath Group, along with Frank HS, Teddy and Joe G (Croydon). Travers of Bristol (1959) used to describe the meeting in the front parlour of Frieda's hairdressing salon being conducted amongst the old fashioned driers. He also used to tell of John and Freida's kindness to him in his own early days. After hearing much about Al-Anon taking shape in Canada and the United States, in 1955 Frieda began Al-Anon in Bath (believed to be the first Al-Anon meeting in England). John died the day after returning from the National Convention at Clacton in 1964. Frieda eventually returned to her native Berne, Switzerland and while already not young she began Al-Anon in that city. There was a report to the Intergroup in the mid-Nineties about an interview held with Frieda during a visit she made to her nephews and nieces in the West Country. She was a most energetitc and charming lady and kept in close touch over the years with the editors of the journal, 'Bristol Fashion'. Her life story is in the Archives. What an amazing lady, travelling all over the world, married to John and founding Al-Anon in more than one country! She would have been a 100 years of age, if not more, when she died! Surely, she was the last of our founding members. The Archivist, Avon South Intergroup, Bristol. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4033. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House From: Mike B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2007 10:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII <> I have a letter from Wesley that I received in July 1985 thanking me for my donation to the Founders Foundation. At that time, Wesley signed himself as "Public Relations Servant" and included a copy of his Concordance, which I have used many, many times over the years. He was quite a good member of Alcoholics Anonymous. There was also a drawing for a 1st edition, 1st printing of the Big Book as a fund raiser. Mike Barns [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4034. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re:Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2007 2:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Any questions about Wesley can be addressed to John W. as he is Wesley's oldest sponsee: JWill60366@aol.com JWill60366 at aol.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4035. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Wesley Parrish and Dr. Bob''s House From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2007 2:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I had letters re this deal from Wesley P., he and old Sherry shared a podium or so back in the late '70s-80s. Nice fellow, well known here in Texas and respected as a good member and speaker, though best known for his efforts with BB studies; we visited a lot in Colorado and New Orleans during those Internationals, he visited in Dallas a few times and we'd talk. sherry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4036. . . . . . . . . . . . Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2007 10:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My background is in archives, not history, and that makes life easier for us so involved because we do not have to furnish opinions. A lot of people were involved in the purchase and restoration of Dr. Bob's. Indeed anyone who has ever made a contribution to them (even me, though a small one) can take credit for this. What should not be overlooked is the original sales agreement was signed by Gail La C., the current Akron AA Archivist, on October 5th, 1984. Her rear end was on the line for many thousands of dollars at that point and, while she had promises that she would not have to come up with (all of) the money, there are few of us that would have the courage (and the credit rating?) to make that big a commitment. Her contribution should neither be forgotten nor minimized. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4037. . . . . . . . . . . . Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group From: gcb900 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2007 10:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA includes Carl Jung's exchanges with Bill W. as part of its history. There is also an important letter where Jung gives his opinion of the Oxford Group which I believe should be included among the materials on the AA History Lovers website, as what others think of AA and its freedoms is important. "The group confessions of sects like the Oxford [Group] Movement are well known; also the cures at Lourdes, which would be unthinkable without an admiring public. Groups bring about not only astonishing cures but equally astonishing psychic changes and conversions precisely because suggestibility is heightened .... "But in view of the notorious tendencies of people to lean on others and cling to various -isms instead of finding security and independence in themselves, which is the prime requisite, there is danger that the individual will equate the group with father and mother and so remain just as dependent, insecure and infantile as before .... For what we are dealing with is only the passing and morally weakening effects of suggestion (that is why medical psychotherapists, with few exceptions, have long since abandoned the use of suggestion therapy). C. G. Jung, letter to Hans A. Illing, January 26, 195570 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4038. . . . . . . . . . . . Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: garylock7008 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2007 3:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was just reading the lastest copy of Marking - Your Archives Interchange Vol. 26 No. 3 - Winter 2006 about the final resting place of Bertha Bamford - Bill W.'s teenage girlfriend. The author of the article - William W., from New Albany, Indiana states that she is buried in the Jeffersonville Cemetery, near her parents. [See photo on page three.] As I am writing this on Jan.24 - the date Bill Wilson died, I was reading the Memorial issue of the Grapevine dated March 1971 as I am preparing to do a brief talk at our local AA meeting on the life of Bill W. On page 14 of that issue Bill discribes his great depression following Bertha's death, in fact he writes: "I used to sneak out and go to the graveyard where the girl was buried, sitting there for hours, convinced that my whole life had utterly collapsed." I wonder if someone could clarify for me how Bill could leave his school in Manchester, Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours in Jeffersonville, Indiana. Gary IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4039. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Mexico City From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2007 3:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes, "Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of Texas Press, 2002. (AA historians should certainly be doing more work on Spanish-speaking AA, because Latin America accounts for one third of AA's membership worldwide.) John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) sent me the following article about Brandes' research: From the Berkeley campus of the University of California: http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous 30 April 2002 By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations Berkeley - When University of California, Berkeley, anthropologist Stanley Brandes was invited by his Mexico City shoeshine man to join him at a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, the longtime scholar of Spain and Latin America was a bit surprised, but he immediately agreed. After attending that first meeting, Brandes returned for hundreds more over the course of several years as he launched a detailed ethnographic study of one AA group among the thousands flourishing in Mexico and Latin America. The stories of the men in that group are told in the just-published, "Staying Sober in Mexico City" (University of Texas Press). Latin America is calculated to account for one-third of AA's membership worldwide, and El Salvador is said to have the highest AA membership per capita of any nation. Throughout Mexico, about 90 percent of AA's members are male. Brandes said he was intensely curious to learn how AA, which in the United States is generally associated with Protestant faiths and a middle- class clientele striving to maintain sobriety, proliferates in a Mexican culture characterized by ardent Catholicism, poverty and often a hard-drinking machismo. What he learned, Brandes said, may add to the understanding of 12-step groups, in general, and of Latino participation in such groups. The first Alcoholics Anonymous groups in Mexico began in the 1940s with English-speaking, "gringo" residents of the country. Some 16 years later, records show that the organization had just three Spanish-speaking AA groups in that country. Current estimates, however, indicate that, today, Mexico City counts more than 1,500 AA groups and about 300,000 members. In a Mexican village of 3,000 people where Brandes has long done anthropological fieldwork, there are at least two regular AA meeting groups. Although Alcoholics Anonymous is the subject of hundreds of books and extensive research, "Staying Sober" is different because it takes a single AA group as its subject and deals not only with the members' ideology, but how AA works for them through social relationships and group dynamics. "I am less interested in therapeutic outcomes than in the fate of the group itself: in questions of leadership, social control, and the identity of individuals as members of the group," Brandes wrote. With men comprising the majority of the AA membership in Mexico and its capital, he said, an interesting thing happens in the group meetings as participants redefine what it means to be a man in Mexico City. (Working-class women in Mexico are more likely to join Neurotics Anonymous or Al-Anon, a group for family members of alcoholics, Brandes said). "A lot of what goes on in the bars goes on in the meeting rooms," Brandes said, recalling meetings of the AA group he called "Moral Support," where he repeatedly heard men brag about sexual exploits and misbehavior. Brandes noted in his book that, although AA is not allied with any religion, it is often associated with Protestant faiths because of the religion of its founders, its somewhat Puritanical focus on abstinence from drinking, and a linkage of its 12-step program with a multitude of Biblical references. Yet, he said, Mexican AA members have managed to infuse much of the typical meeting and group structure with popular Catholic symbolism and form. One way, Brandes said, is the use of the AA member's telling of personal stories in a way similar to Catholic confessionals. Another is the use of alcohol-free fiestas to celebrate sobriety anniversaries to mimic the typical merriment of Catholic celebrations for baptisms, confirmations, marriages and other events. Also, Brandes found that the use of "sponsors" to guide newer AA members has been co-opted by the Mexicans as the equivalent of religious godparents, or "padrinos." "The Moral Support meeting room is certainly not a church," Brandes wrote. "But, in a number of ways, it replicates the kind of sacred space that would be familiar to any Mexican Catholic. The chairs are arranged, as in any church, in congregational fashion. The podium functions as a kind of altar...Sacred texts hanging on the meeting room walls add to the overall religious imagery." So, Brandes said, "To join AA in working-class Mexico City does not mean abandoning one's religious tradition. It means adapting it to the circumstances at hand." He theorizes that the growth of AA membership in Mexico is due, in part, to more villagers heading to urban centers in search of work. Among these migrants, many workers with drinking problems turn to Alcoholics Anonymous groups as substitutes for the familiar, small communities they lost when they left rural villages or to replace their drinking buddies. Surprisingly, AA in Mexico City is anything but anonymous, and no one seems to mind, Brandes found. The small storefront meetings he attended were interrupted by small children racing in to chase dogs or retrieve balls, and neighbors looking for each other. Members routinely keep the meeting entrance open, and passersby can easily overhear what is said inside, Brandes said. This open identification of AA members is probably the most dramatic difference between the organization in Mexico and the United States, he said. While Brandes still is uncertain about the effectiveness of AA, he said he did become "a true Triple A, or Admirer of Alcoholics Anonymous," in that he held every one of the members of his group in high esteem and developed affection for them. Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, co-director of the Harvard (University) Immigration Project, praised "Staying Sober in Mexico City." He said it likely will become not only the standard reference on the cultural study of alcoholism in Mexico, but also "one of the best overall social science contributions to the study of Mexican culture in the last 50 years." Brandes, a social cultural anthropologist, has spent more than 30 years in the study of Latin American and European ethnography, writing about peasant society and culture, folklore, symbolism, ritual and religion, as well as food and drink. Brandes' future projects will include a study of Latino AA or 12-step groups in the United States, as he assesses the impact of migration on drinking patterns and treatment strategies. Brandes also is engaged in a long-term study of the Day of the Dead. ### IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4040. . . . . . . . . . . . First Black Woman In AA? From: hesofine2day . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2007 5:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the identity of the first black woman in AA? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4041. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Later history of the Oxford Group From: David Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2007 6:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You write: > Could AA have in fact remained linked to the > Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of > the OG and the way they were evolving? Evidently Clarence S. felt not ... citing specific reasons to Dr.Bob (as presented in Mitchell K.'s "How It Worked) pp.136-141. Then there's "AA The Story," by Kurtz, pp 45-57, which go into some detail the myriad reasons why AA naturally and inevitably separated from the Oxford Group in order to even proclaim "a primary purpose," let alone anonymity, attraction rather than promotion, no opinion on outside matters, no outside affiliation, and a God of our own understanding. I would also say before we get into a "true assessment" of the Oxford group-even as it went through its various permutations, we would do well to first of all understand the biases of the Oxford Group, as dominated by Buchman, during this period of time in the 30's and 40's. For example: From "What is the Oxford Group," 1933, P. 6:"Their aim is A New World Order for Christ, the King," and "The Oxford Group works within churches of all denominations, planning to bring those outside back into their folds and to re-awaken those within to their responsibilities as Christians." Then there's their strategy of trying to bring the "movers and shakers" into the fold so that "money, property and prestige" might serve to influence the masses more quickly. Then there's the Oxford Group's take on homosexuality: "There are many who wear suede shoes who are not homosexual, but in Europe and America the majority of homosexuals do. They favor green as a color in clothes and decorations. Men are given to an excessive display and use of the handkerchief. They tend to let the hair grow long, use scent and are frequently affected in speech, mincing in gait and feminine in mannerisms. They are often very gifted in the arts. They tend to exhibitionism. They can be cruel and vindictive, for sadism usually has a homosexual root. They are often given to moods....There is an unnecessary touching of hands, arms and shoulders. In the homosexual the elbow grip is a well-known sign. Of course, they were condemned. (See Remaking Men, Paul Campbell, M.D. and Peter Howard, 1954, pages 60-62.) Probably the most famous of the Buchman utterances: "On returning from Europe, Frank Buchman, Oxford group revivalist, is quoted by a reputable New York paper as having said: "I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front-line defense against the anti-Christ of communism.... My barber in London told me Hitler saved all Europe from communism. That's how he felt. Of course I don't condone everything the Nazis do. Antisemitism? Bad, naturally. I suppose Hitler sees a Karl Marx in every Jew. But think what it would mean to the world if Hitler surrendered to the control of God. Or Mussolini. Or any dictator. Through such a man God could control a nation overnight and solve every last bewildering problem." "In this interview the social philosophy of the Oxford group, long implicit in its strategy, is made explicit, and revealed in all its childishness and viciousness. This philosophy has been implicit in Buchmanite strategy from the beginning. It explains the particular attention which is paid by Mr. Buchman and his followers to big men, leaders, in industry and politics. The idea is that if the man of power can be converted, God will be able to control a larger area of human life through his power than if a little man were converted. This is the logic which has filled the Buchmanites with touching solicitude for the souls of such men as Henry Ford or Harvey Firestone and prompted them to whisper confidentially from time to time that these men were on the very threshold of the kingdom of God. It is this strategy which prompts or justifies the first- class travel of all the Oxford teams. They hope to make contact with big men in the luxurious first-class quarters of ocean liners." Excerpted from "Christianity and Power Politics" by Reinhold Niebuhr, the eminent theologian who is associated with The Serenity Prayer. This appears to be a word-for-word reprint of Niebuhr's criticism of Buchman that first appeared in The Christian Century magazine, October 7, 1936, pages 1315 and 1316. Isolated thought? Not really. Here's another: "... Human problems aren't economic. They're moral and they can't be solved by immoral measures. They could be solved within a God-controlled democracy, or perhaps I should say a theocracy, and they could be solved through a God-controlled Fascist dictatorship." Initiatives of Change, the Oxford group's latest reincarnation, seems admirably multi-cultural and focused on the the interpersonal and what each of us can do to make the world a better place. In addition, there are stories where such changes have taken place with some idea of how they've occurred. It seems that the insistence upon change from the "top down" and Jesus Christ as the only way have been dropped. More power to them. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4042. . . . . . . . . . . . Wesley P''s concordance From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2007 4:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does any one know where I can get a complete concordance like the one referred to below? Cheryl Fitzsimmons http://my2.tupperware.com/CherylFitz -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 To: AA History Lovers Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob's House I have a letter from Wesley that I received in July 1985 thanking me for my donation to the Founders Foundation. At that time, Wesley signed himself as "Public Relations Servant" and included a copy of his Concordance, which I have used many, many times over the years. Mike Barns IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4043. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2007 6:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In reference to the post by bobnotgod and his statement that Gail L. signed for the mortgage in 1984, I doubt that it was Gail L. of Akron Archives. I've met her several times and I'm sure she would have been a teenager in 1984 and unable to sign a mortgage. (Aren't I a diplomat!) Perhaps another AAHL can shed some more light on that. I have a copy of the Extensions newsletter from the Founders Foundation dated Jan. 1988 that says “The Home is Now Ours." It has a picture of a ceremonial mortgage burning with Don C., Kurt S., Kay S., Mel B., K-C S., Ron S., and Joe G. The article states, “The home is now ours! The Mortgage Has Been Paid." In the newsletter entitled Founders Foundation News the Articles of Incorporation are listed and show Sue S. Windows, Kay S., and Joseph G. as the initial trustees. It is dated Jan. 14, 1985. Was the house paid off in 3 years? In reference to trying to find out more about Wesley P, Kay and Oscar -- I received many e-mails -- thank you to Sherry, Old Bill, Don B (who will be a speaker at the next Founder's Day on Saturday afternoon), Tommy H., Woody of Akron and Diz T. Diz referred me to the next best thing than the horses' mouth; he sent me to his sponcee John W. and he has sent me the following which he has allowed me to share with you. Dear Mike, Wes was upset when he heard the news that Dr. Bob's home was in bad shape and was in danger of being bulldozed to make room for a parking lot. The mortgage that existed at that time was rather small as I remember but Wes felt that interested members of AA should participate in the purchase and it should be done outside of AA. He was in Pompano but he had plenty of support in Akron and he was asked to be the "point" man and raise the funds to pay off the mortgage. He took on the assignment and Wes had a lot of friends whose wealth had increased because of sobriety and Wes asked for contributions and of course they responded. He also conducted a raffle of a first edition Big Book with Bill Wilson's and Ebby Thatcher's signature on the inside covers. The tickets were sold for $25.00 per chance and plenty were sold. If you purchased a ticket, Wes would send you back a concordance to the Big Book and 12x12 to acknowledge receipt of your purchase. Wes died in November, 1985 and the drawing was set for January, 1986. I had Wesley's widow, Rena, draw the winning ticket and I presented the book to Ray G. in St. Petersburg in February, 1986. I don't think Ray was ever the same after that as he and his wife have become archivist for Dr. Bob's home. Charlie P. from Maysville, AR became the chief fund raiser after that and has been successful at getting a principal of close to $500.00 so that the interest is divided each year between Dr. Bob's home and Bill's birthplace in East Dorset, VT. Wes never purchased the mortgage although he could have. He thought it better to have interested members contribute so that it would be a collective effort which seems to work best with AA members. Wes was quite a salesman and got the job started. Kay and Wes were good buddies and all of that committee worked very hard to achieve something really great for the members of AA. Wes would keep me posted as to the progress in our daily conversations if anything significant occurred in Akron. He was pleased with the progress and on the evening of his death, according to Rena, he had been on the phone to Akron before he retired for the night and later died in his sleep. I understand his picture is displayed somewhere in the home and as is with most of what Wes stood for, he's just as happy to remain anonymous. All of those involved know the part he played and as the one who started the Founder's Foundation, it goes on and the homes can never be taken away. As ever, John W. The original mortgage for the house was $38,000 according to the Founders Foundation news. The lending institution was the First National Bank, Akron, Ohio, and the rate was 1 1/2 % over the prime interest rate. The down payment was 25% or $9,500.00. It was a commercial loan and they also had to pay 2 points ($570.00) plus closing costs (~$500.00). The monthly payment was $360.00 per month for 15 years plus taxes and insurance. The law required 5 people to sign for it and the committee thought the house would cover any risk involved by those 5 people. Tradition Six was not broken by the members having a Foundation and as Kay said "Come home often, it’s yours," "The Home of Dr. Bob is yours," "God will do the impossible." John also shared, "Wes started a big book study on January 5, 1976, and that group has evolved into the Wednesday Night Study Group in Pompano Beach. Since I was there when it started and was part of the group until I moved to Tallahassee last summer, I know its history. Wes was also responsible for getting the Big Book Seminars and Studies off the ground. As I was his pigeon, I saw this all unfold and fortunately for me, Wes asked me to be part of the program." Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz See Ya in Phoenix Sept.6-9 at the 11th National Archives Convention. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4044. . . . . . . . . . . . Purchasing Dr Bobs House... From: erb2b . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2007 5:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings.... I have heard this story quite a few times from my Grandsponsor( Alf S.) who also contributed to the funds along with his good friend Wesley P. in the house purchase along with a few others. He's still alive and in the nursing home. I see him every so often he's 92 and still has some stories to tell myself and others. He was a Panel Delegate and came into the Oxford Group in 1934. THX! Corey F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4045. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 9:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Gary, I was one of the authors of "Pass It On," so I had the same question you posed here. I concluded that Bertha's body was temporarily stored in a vault before being taken to Jeffersonville for a later service and burial. It's also possible that she might have been buried in Manchester and then exhumed and reburied in Jeffersonville. I also understand that winter burials are delayed in part of New England because the ground is frozen over. I think that was the case when Bill died in January, but was not buried in East Dorset until spring. Incidentally, I asked a good friend in Louisville, Paul L., to make a search for Bertha's grave back in 1980. He was a very capable man and made a diligent search, but couldn't find it. So we have to give William W. high marks for this successful search. We should also thank Amy Filliatreau, the new archivist, for getting the photo. She was visiting in Louisville and went over and snapped it on her own. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4046. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 10:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gary, Bertha died on November 19th, 1912 at the Flower Hospital in New York City. Her death certificate indicates she died during surgery to remove a sarcoma of the right kidney. She was interred at Walnut Ridge Cemetery in Jeffersonville, Indiana (across the river from Louisville, KY) on November 28, 1912. Robert Thomsen, in his book "Bill W", indicates that Bertha's body laid in an above-ground crypt (the earth too frozen for burial) at the Factory Point Cemetery (in Dorsett, VT) that winter. But this seens unlikely since only 9 days separated her death in Manhattan and burial in Indiana. Bill's account makes for an impelling story. I take it as only that. John K. - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Please read pg. 36 in Pass It On. She was buried in Jeffersonville, Indiana. yis Shakey Mike Gwirtz - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) "I wonder if someone could clarify for me how Bill could leave his school in Manchester, Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours in Jeffersonville, Indiana." The same way that many other so-called "facts" are presented in AA literature -- it sounds better than the truth. (Or ... there are lots of other women by that same name in the world.) - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "garylock7008" wrote: > > I was just reading the lastest copy of Marking - > Your Archives Interchange Vol. 26 No. 3 - Winter > 2006 about the final resting place of Bertha > Bamford - Bill W.'s teenage girlfriend. > > The author of the article - William W., from > New Albany, Indiana states that she is buried > in the Jeffersonville Cemetery, near her parents. > > [See photo on page three.] > > As I am writing this on Jan.24 - the date Bill > Wilson died, I was reading the Memorial issue > of the Grapevine dated March 1971 as I am > preparing to do a brief talk at our local AA > meeting on the life of Bill W. On page 14 of > that issue Bill discribes his great depression > following Bertha's death, in fact he writes: > > "I used to sneak out and go to the graveyard > where the girl was buried, sitting there for > hours, convinced that my whole life had utterly > collapsed." > > I wonder if someone could clarify for me how > Bill could leave his school in Manchester, > Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours > in Jeffersonville, Indiana. > > Gary > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4047. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico City From: Maria Swora . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 8:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I reviewed this book for American Ethnologist. It's an online review: http://www.aaanet.org/aes/bkreviews/result_details.cfm?bk_id=632 It's a really good book. Maria Maria G. Swora, Ph.D. MPH Department of Sociology Benedictine College Atchison, Kansas 66002 - - - - Glenn Chesnut wrote: A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes, "Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of Texas Press, 2002. John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) sent me the following article about Brandes' research: From the Berkeley campus of the University of California: http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous 30 April 2002 By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations ________________________________________ The full text of Kathleen Maclay's article is given in AAHistoryLovers Message 4039: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4039 ________________________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4048. . . . . . . . . . . . Could AA and the OG have stayed together? From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 4:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Glenn: I was much stimulated by your first question below to think about whether or not AA and the OG might have stuck together. I think not, because each was, from fairly early times, on a quite clearly different track to the future. My remarks here are based on much reading about AA, and about the OG and its successor organizations, and on considerable personal knowledge of AA and its history. But in the end I am writing here essentially just my own impressions and theories. The hypothetical question as to whether the two groups could have stuck together is really unanswerable because what happened is that they did not, and real history, real events, are irreversible. One can't step in the same river twice. First, look at the leaders. Buchman and Wilson both had extraordinary spiritual experiences of the transformative type so well described in James's "Varieties of Religious Experience" and Bucke's "Cosmic Consciousness." Both men came out of their brief but intense illuminations with completely changed characters. Both became strong, magnetic leaders, originators of world- changing movements. Neither had been that before the experiences, although they were both thought highly talented in various ways. It was perhaps inevitable that two such "large" men would bump heads when it finally came to a showdown over their ideas. But having cited some equivalencies, I now suggest some strong differences: Buchman (1878-1961) was Bill's (1895-1970) senior by 17 years; he was one year older than Dr. Bob. Buchman's spiritual experience in 1908, when he was 30, antedated Bill's in 1934 (when Bill was 38) by 26 years. Buchman was established as a leader with an international group in existence when "the alcoholic squad," led by Bill and Dr. Bob formed itself in Akron under OG auspices in late 1935. AA ideas would not come together and be presented to the public for several more years; the Big Book ("Alcoholics Anonymous") was published in 1939. But AA's "Big Book," was more completely an action program, and a more detailed one than the OG ever printed, despite the immense amount of often excellent OG literature that was created over many years. Of course AA's Big Book was based largely on Oxford Group principles, but already somewhat modified to fit the AA circumstance. Both groups depended, to begin with, on one-on-one personal contacts more than on anything written to accomplish their goals. In the matter of movement goals, of course, is where major differences arose. Buchman aimed at all men (meant in the sense of all men and women); Bill and Dr. Bob (mostly, as far as the public was concerned Bill's silent partner) soon realized —- as early as their months together in Akron in the summer of '35 —- that they were out after only their fellow alcoholics. I seem to recall reading that Buchman disapproved of such "specialism" and told the alkies that, perhaps through Sam Shoemaker. Buchman and the OG generally operated on the theory that if they could change "leaders" and otherwise important people ("key people" in their expression), the mass of people would ultimately tend to change with them. There is no reason to say they were essentially wrong. Protestantism advanced because some German princes took it up, and their people followed them. My impression has been that all through their changes of name and policies and locations, this emphasis by the OG on "changing leaders first" has stayed constant. As has the emphasis on publishing their successes on the world stage, so that their movement might grow and make beneficial changes in the lives of many everywhere, and not unimportantly, lead to significant donations to the OG work. The OG published and reiterated its successes among the prestigious and powerful to the point of turning off many; I expect Bill and Bob were among those turned off by this extravagance. Even when AA collected some "celebrities" there was no desire by AA to capitalize on their attachment; some early "anonymity-breakers" among that population were thought actually harmful to the fellowship. One can perhaps put it this way: Buchman's traits included an extravagance of language when making claims for his OG (and later MRA); he was often accused of being extravagant in his style of living -— expensive clothing, "posh" hotels, luxurious traveling. He, in fact, owned very little personal property, so there was a principled side to his methods; his expenses were for his work. His style was rather derivative of Philadelphia, a city of great wealth and even elegance, under the English Quakers and Protestant Germans who settled in Pennsylvania. Whereas Bill and Bob for all their education and urban sophistication retained through their lives a kind of "Puritan-Yankee-Vermonter" outlook that disliked ostentation, bragging, and extravagance, without, I think, their ever being cheapskates. Bill and AA ultimately went in quite an opposite direction from the OG organizationally: personal anonymity, meaning there would be no publicity sought for big-name adherents of their cause, no money sought from anyone not an alcoholic, no expensive buildings and "centers," none of the trappings of institutional wealth for any aspect of AA itself, however the individual members might disport themselves. But perhaps the biggest difference between the two groups and their founding leaders was in their handling of the twin problems of leadership (that "L" word again) and succession that beset every social movement. Buchman stayed in charge of the OG/MRA until his death in 1961. He had delegated Peter Howard, an Englishman, as his successor. Howard died unexpectedly in Lima, Peru, in 1965. (I have run across at least one writer who thinks Howard was murdered. He did not say who, supposing the suspicion were correct, might have done it, or why.) Howard's death precipitated a leadership crisis in MRA, which was ultimately solved by the movement's heavyweights (a board of directors or trustees presumably) which instituted a change of policies. These in turn have led, whether or not deliberately I do not know, to the essential disappearance of the organization from the U.S. and Britain, and developments towards the East (India) and South (Africa) from their long-time European HQ at Caux, Switzerland. A name change to Initiates of Change occurred along the way. Bill Wilson's solution to the leadership-succession problem seems, by contrast, extraordinarily successful —- so far. Way back in the 1940s he had complained in the Grapevine that he wished he and Bob could "join AA." He was lamenting their lionization and consequent isolation as "founders." Surely Bob had no heart for lionization at all; he firmly declined some Akron AAs' proposal for a stately mausoleum for him and Anne, and he told Bill he thought they both should be buried "like other folks." Bob spoke for the last time at the 1950 International Conference in Cleveland. By 1955 Bill had made his decision: he would foreclose the founder/Big Shot role in AA for (he hoped) all time. He stepped down as founder-leader at the 1955 "Coming of Age" Conference at St. Louis (marvelously reported on by him in "AA Comes of Age") and "turned the movement over to the members." He worked at getting a majority of alcoholics on the GSO board of trustees and at starting the annual GSO delegates meeting in New York City every April, and, in the Third (Service) Legacy, he accomplished two things of major importance (among other things): (1) he, as it were, wrote out of AA's permanent structure any need for, or means to achieve, replacements of himself and Bob; there would be no "designated successor" to them as there had been to Buchman in OG/MRA, and (2) he deposited all authority and power in the individual AA Group; there would be no rule "from the top," as in the OG/MRA. The NYC HQ would be subservient to the Delegates's conferences and ultimately only a publishing, not a control, operation. This he clearly hoped would squeak AA safely around the bugaboo that assails all top-down organizations like governments and churches, namely the rise and steadily increasing empowerment of an HQ bureaucracy. As to that there is Mosca's Iron Law to keep in mind, which runs to the effect that all organizations (top-down rule assumed) end up ultimately serving the people who run it rather than the mission it was originally set up to serve. The Puritan-Yankee-Vermonter master publicist, lawyer, speculator, magnetic leader, etc., etc., did his level best to protect AA from the future's swollen egos, and even, as he said, from himself; he lived 16 years past his step-down as leader and never made any attempts, so far as I know, to reassert himself as the man in charge. It was quite a wondrous working, a very rare case of selflessness. - - - - On Jan 22, 2007, at 11:33 AM, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > There is a nice little summary of the later > history of the Oxford Group at: > > http://www.uk.initiativesofchange.org/index.php?sn=2,2#top > > Could AA have in fact remained linked to the > Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of > the OG and the way they were evolving? In AA, > we tend to focus only on the parts of the Oxford > Group that we are interested in, and ignore > other things that were essential parts of the > movement. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4049. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico City From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 6:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe I met Stanley Brandes in 1997 at a seminar held at Brown University in 1997. He was discussing his work in Mexico at that time. I wonder if the finished product included Seccion Mexico which is a true Fellowship of the Spirit in Mexico where they are living the Traditions and freely carrying the message to all who seek recovery. - - - - - - Glenn Chesnut wrote: > A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes, > "Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of > Texas Press, 2002. > > John Blair (jblair at wmis.net) > sent me the following article about Brandes' > research: > > From the Berkeley campus of > the University of California: > > http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html > > UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's > rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous > > 30 April 2002 > > By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4050. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico City From: Angela Corelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2007 7:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hola, I read that book review in 2002 and reacted in horror at how misleading his perceptions were. Trying to fit AA into preconceived ethnological/ anthropological parameters. His observations may be true for the group he observed, but it is misleading to say it applies to all AA in Mexico. My first 8 years of sobriety (sobriety date Sept 6, 1986) were almost exclusively in Spanish language meetings in the Mexican states of Michoacan, Sinaloa, Nayarit and Jalisco, including a national AA convention in Mexico City. My personal observations of these meetings are not in agreement with his. (I have a degree in Art History/Anthropology from UC Berkeley). I had planned to order the book and see for myself ... but that idea faded ... now will do it...the reviewer may have made mistatements. It is mileading what Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, co-director of the Harvard (University) Immigration Project, said when he praised "Staying Sober in Mexico City." He said it likely will become not only the standard reference on the cultural study of alcoholism in Mexico, but also "one of the best overall social science contributions to the study of Mexican culture in the last 50 years," with the study of one group. It is similar to a non AA making a study of an AA group in a small town in the US and calling it "the standard reference on the cultural study of alcoholism in the US." Yes. Photos of Bill W and Dr. Bob often have candles and flowers placed below them. I have not noticed the Mexicans being any more boastful than American men on their sexual prowess or manliness. Guadalajara had six Women´s AA groups in 1988, now who knows, I attended most of them. Now living in Puerto Vallarta, I have attended three different Mexican all Women AA groups. I have had the opportunity to travel with Mexican AA carrying the message to Isla Marias Penal Colony 1,500 men and 53 women ... to work with the women. Here, almost to a person, the prisoners had been incarcerated for a crime committed while drunk. To Sierra Madre mountain villages outside of Guadalajara ... 1/2 hour by twin engine plane the 15 minutes. Here we helped form a new AA group, they had been meeting for a years, but were not a registered group. And did not perceive the same things as Mr. Brandes. Angela Corelis Puerto Vallarta, Jalisco Mexico P.S. Just finished a presentation on AA History in Mexico at the 5th Annual Sobriety Under the Sun AA Conference in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, January 26, 27, 28, 2007. I asked Fernando Q. (25 years sober) to present the same talk he gave on that topic at the International AA Convention in San Diego. Plus invited local English speaking Mexican AA member (4 years sober, but interviewed Pedrito the only still living founder of Spanish language AA in Vallarta) to present the history of Mexican AA in Vallarta and Ray (30 years sobriety, visiting Vallarta for 6 months each year since sober) to present the history of English Language AA in Vallarta. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4051. . . . . . . . . . . . Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: teeper@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2007 11:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHL, A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically in either the Big Book or the 12and12 if the subject of refraining from relationships (or any other thing that might interfere with sobriety) for the first year or so. That's the general wisdom of my home group and I've heard that advice given before, but I don't know if it's ever been addressed in any Conference-approved literature, or on this site, for that matter. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Spiritus contra spiritum! Terry P. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4052. . . . . . . . . . . . Twelve Steps and the Older Member From: Barry Murtaugh . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 12:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Folks, Here on my desk is a paperback with a blue coated stock cover with the numeral "12" in gold on it, upper right corner. Cover is glued to stapled text pages, 5 1/2" x 7 1/8" Inside is the title page: "TWELVE STEPS and the older Member" Publisher line is: "Older Member Press,Box 25, Guilford, Conn" Copyright page: "Copyright 1964 by Older Member Press First Serial rights granted A.A. Grapevine 1954 through 1963; all other rights retained by copyright owner. First Printing June, 1964. Library of Congress catalog number:64-22572 Price Two Dollars" Great lines from the intro: "The newest newcomer is just as authentically an explorer into the infinite as were Bill and Bob when they founded AA on June 10,1935. Nobody can take the Tweve Steps for anybody else. Each individual who sets his foot on the road suggested by the Steps finds himself on his own endlessly challenging, sometime perilous journey into undiscovered territory." In Gratitude 12/24/06 Happy Christmas from Barrington, IL Barry Barry Murtaugh CMLJBM@VOYAGER.NET IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4053. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Wesley P''s concordance From: John Seibert . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2007 8:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cheryl, I have a dictionary/concordance that is prooduced by an outfit called the "Big Book Dictionary." It was given me by a friend. Their web site is http://www.bigbookdictionary.com It is conveniently sized to fit inside the Big Book and is current for the 4th edition - the first 192 pages [through Dr Bob's Story]. Currently their price is $4.00 each and that includes shipping. In Love, John S. - - - - From: "Bob S." (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) Question: "Does any one know where I can get a complete concordance like the one referred to below?" Answer: A Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous By Stephen and Frances E. Poe Purple Salamander Press 1625 Heitman Court Reno, NV 89509 This book is nearly 1000 pages - I have found it very useful. Bob S. - - - - From: "momaria33772" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) I'm not sure specifically which Concordance is referred to here, however, my friend Ray G., the Dr. Bob's Home archivist,is a snow bird here in Florida. He has a few copies of the huge blue hardcover available, this is written by Stephen Poe printed by Purple Salamander press 1990. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4054. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 8:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "gcb900" wrote: > > AA includes Carl Jung's exchanges with Bill W. > as part of its history. There is also an > important letter where Jung gives his opinion > of the Oxford Group which I believe should be > included among the materials on the AA History > Lovers website, as what others think of AA and > its freedoms is important. > Jung's thinking did go through some changes over time, and he seems to have been a little more positive, or at least less negative, about the OG during the 1920s. In the "Collected Letters" there is an early letter mentioning the Groups, which was apparently written to a member of his extended family or a close friend (I assume this because he signed it "Carl" which he almost never did). The person had already become involved with the OG and Jung made the observation that, for that particular person at least, Group involvement was probably a good thing. The recipient of the letter is not identified, and the endorsement -- if endorsement is even the right term -- is certainly tentative. In the 1930s, Jung became critical or even contemptuous of the Groups. The reason may have been partially a personal one. A friend and colleague, Alphonse Maeder, had become involved with the Groups in the mid-20s. Maeder was one of the few men in the analytic community with whom Jung remained on good terms over a long period of time, probably because Maeder had an easy-going personality and more humility than most people in the field. The two of them eventually parted company, primarily because Jung wanted Maeder to take on the leadership of a professional organization with Nazi connections. Maeder's excuse (purposely lame?) was that he was devoting too much time to the OG to take on anything else. This may have contributed to Jung's disapproval of the Group. So the situation is as usual a little complicated. Certainly Jung's distrust of "group think," the psychology of crowds, was consistent thoughout his career. So it is understandable that he would have questioned the wisdom of joining an organization like the Oxford Group. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4055. . . . . . . . . . . . re:Wesley P. Concordance From: mec569 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 8:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have used the Hazelden index cost about 3.00 at my Central Office/intergroup. I use a Concordance that include words in context for the Twelve and Twelve and Big Book called "164 and More" compiled and edited by Ralph T. The website for it is excellent and is as follows: http:\\www.164andMore.com The book sells for 15.00 post-paid and has been a great resource for me during book studies and the like. Yours in Service, Brewster B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4056. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 3:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Try the 12and12 on page 119: "A.A. has many single alcoholics who wish to marry and are in a position to do so. Some marry fellow A.A.'s. How do they come out? On the whole these marriages are very good ones. Their common suffering as drinkers, their common interest in A.A. and spiritual things, often enhance such unions. It is only where 'boy meets girl on A.A. campus,' and love follows at first sight, that difficulties may develop. The prospective partners need to be solid A.A.'s and long enough acquainted to know that their compatibility at spiritual, mental, and emotional levels is a fact and not wishful thinking. They need to be as sure as possible that no deep-lying emotional handicap in either will be likely to rise up under later pressures to cripple them. The considerations are equally true and important for the A.A.'s who marry 'outside' A.A. With clear understanding and right, grown-up attitudes, very happy results do follow." __________________________________ ---- a year might be rushing it! to achieve that compatibility at spiritual, mental and emotional levels ... rule out any deep lying emotional handicaps... gain clear understanding and right grown-up attitudes. teeper@comcast.net wrote: >AAHL, > > A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically >in either the Big Book or the 12and12 if the subject >of refraining from relationships (or any other >thing that might interfere with sobriety) for >the first year or so. > > That's the general wisdom of my home group >and I've heard that advice given before, but >I don't know if it's ever been addressed in >any Conference-approved literature, or on this >site, for that matter. > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4057. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John, Thanks for this additional information about Bertha Bamford's death and burial. Since Bill talked about mourning by her burial place, I take it that he went out to the above- ground vault several times before she was taken to Jeffersonville. Bill had a tendency to exaggerate certain facts (though not deliberately) and I believe that this memory bcame somewhat expanded as he recalled that dark period in his life. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: johnpublico To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:32 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Bertha Bamford's grave in Indiana??? Gary, Bertha died on November 19th, 1912 at the Flower Hospital in New York City. Her death certificate indicates she died during surgery to remove a sarcoma of the right kidney. She was interred at Walnut Ridge Cemetery in Jeffersonville, Indiana (across the river from Louisville, KY) on November 28, 1912. Robert Thomsen, in his book "Bill W", indicates that Bertha's body laid in an above-ground crypt (the earth too frozen for burial) at the Factory Point Cemetery (in Dorsett, VT) that winter. But this seens unlikely since only 9 days separated her death in Manhattan and burial in Indiana. Bill's account makes for an impelling story. I take it as only that. John K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4058. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico City From: Maria Swora . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 4:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I never got the impression that Brandes believed that his study of one AA group represented all of AA in Mexico. I don't think one could write any one work that would accurately depict as diverse a group/community/fellowship as AA. But there are some important core values that are actively adapted by members to their local contexts. I find his work valuable for two reasons. First, the ethnographic (not ethnological) study of one AA group provides us with a wealth of rich comparative material. If we disagree with it, more work needs to be done - other groups, the same at a different time, etc. That is how science works - through a disciplinary community that is self-critical and open to correction and growth. Second, I though Brandes' analysis and description of the articulation of that particular group in that particular context, both local and cultural, was very good. And it is about time that someone recognized that gender affects men as well as women. One concern I have. I am a nonalcoholic who carried out an ethnographic study of AA in one city, and wrote a dissertation about it. I broadened by material with speaker tapes from all over the United States, but I never claimed that I produced a comprehensive study of AA. I do think I did a good job, even though I'd be the first to admit I can't claim to "grok" what it is like to be an alcoholic, sober or not. However, I've been told by a few AA members that I have no right or business to try to understand the fellowship and its program because I am not a member. I disagree. That's like telling an anthropologist that he/she can't do an ethnographic study of another society or cultural group because he/she is not a native. Maria S., Friend of Friends of Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4059. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico City From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 10:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hola Amigo's Thanks to John and to Glenn, also to Angela, Maria (appreciated your review), and Mitchell. I had written this before their postings appeared. I think I have to agree with Angela that Brandes's perception is very different from my own. That was a very interesting article, It's hard to tell, but I think perhaps that Brandes is not AA hImself...it would seem to me that several of these observations seem to have been shaped by a premiss, regarding a Protestant/Catholic antipathy. By way of observation, my visits to Alcoholics Anonymous Groups in Mexico have shown me that "A Power greater than myself", in fact, a Power greater than Protestant Christianity or Catholicism, is no doubt at work in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous in the world today. I particularly note the idea that "Mexican" meeting rooms (as opposed to our own?) are set up to emulate "sacred space" ... true perhaps, but I'd say that they resemble any large meeting room anywhere in the world (as do ours) for that matter, I think, it is quite possible today that the nature and arrangement of common meeting rooms have been influenced as much by AA as the other way around. I've had the opportunity to travel on three separate occasions into Mexico, including Mexico City, all in the service of Alcoholics Anonymous. In that regard I have been very fortunate indeed. Having been in a lot of meeting rooms in Mexico, I'd say the most distinctive feature about their meeting rooms is the inclusion amidst the seating chairs of a number of, often identical, one or two tiered "occaisional tables" to accomodate coffee, water, tea and sometimes cakes or snacks ... these are served with gusto throughout the meeting and are not considered as interuptions in the slightest. The Membership reminds me of what I believe our own earlier AA must have been like. They are very concerned with helping one another to grow and to flourish in AA ... the role of the Padrino (Sponsor) is taken seriously as is the role of the Ahijado (Sponsee). I am myself a Padrino today, as well as a Sponsor here in our own country. Another marvel of the internet, and another blessing to be sure. Rather than a Churchlike atmosphere, I'd say a typical Mexican Meeting Room resembles a kind of living room oriented in one particular direction, most often with a podium and a desk (also prominent) at the focal point of the room ... (a reminder perhaps that the speaker or speakers are only a part of the business of the meeting which is controlled by the secretary seated there)...and with Coffee and water being served about you it is sometimes like an Airline flight in progress. Any resemblance to a Church layout or to a "Confessional" approach to speaking could certainly be made with English speaking AA as well and certainly belies the idea of the overwhelming influence of either Christian or Catholic religions. I don't know of any wall decor more prevalent than the slogans, (these, as printed by both AAWS and the Mexican GSO's may appear "Catholic" to some due to their use of Gothic Script) and, as a matter of course in Mexican meeting rooms the "Responsibility Statement", is displayed prominently, often taking the place of the Serenity Prayer in English speaking or "American" meeetings. The "Responsibility Statement" is taken very seriously by the members of every group that i've had the good fortune to visit. Our Hispanic members are wonderful people with admirable sense of concern for one another. A visit to Mexico has the spiritual effect on me of attending an AA "Revival". While I don't know the exact ratio of men to women in Mexican AA, I've never noticed any noticeable shortage of ladies present, to the contrary, I've met a good number of very active women in the meetings there. Finally, regarding the "male" nature of the comments overheard at meetings, it seems to me that men tend to talk that way amongst themselves all over the world, (I often wonder what the women talk about?), and, of course, we are each of us, in varying stages of recovery ourselves, especially with regard to our consideration for others. Is there really a dual standard in effect here, and if so, is it a cultural, thing, or does it really have anything to do with AA? I'm sure that such a thing is perhaps valid as a personal observation; but I am not sure of its relevance in an "AA" context. I guesss that's the "group dynamics" part of his study. Without a doubt all AA's speak one language in common "la Lingua de Corazon"...the Language of the Heart. It is very true that Spanish- speaking AA is something which should be appreciated, not only as a growing thing, but as recognizable and spiritual force for good in AA today, and it should not be brushed aside or overlooked. Tu Companero, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4060. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob''s signature From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 6:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII After recently buying a signed book that was in Dr.Bob's library,I asked a question to AAHL's asking if they knew about any other books he had signed. One member had three, and another had one. It appears that there may not be many books out there signed by Dr. Smith. I assumed that the Akron Archives would have many and once again I was wrong. Gail L. informed me that "We have a signature of Dr. Bob's in a first edition first printing Big Book. That is the only original signature that we have. The Smith children sold everything and most of it is now at Brown University. I found Dr. Bob's "What is the Oxford Group" book and donated it to Dr. Bob's House. It was signed: R H Smith, 855 Ardmore, "His book, please return" Anything that you have that we can pass on to the many who visit would be appreciated." The book I bought was purchased so that it could be shown. I will carry it to Jared L's archives workshop in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania and also to the 11th National Archives Convention September 6-9 in Phoenix, Arizona. If you own AA memorabilia be sure to have it legally given (willed) to your Intergroup etc. Make sure your next of kin understands your wishes and how valuable the material may be to others. If Akron only has one signature, I can only shudder when I think of how many of our archives have been thrown away by family and friends not knowing what they are.I think that there must be some of Dr.Bob's books in the Akron area that were given by Sue or Smitty, to their friends, that should find their way to the Akron AA Archives. What a legacy for an AA to pass on to others; the archives that rightfully belong to us all. The demand and cost of AA memorsbilia is sky high. Just look at an auction on E-Bay. A Big Red with a DJ goes for $20,000. Sobriety has made many AA's very wealthy,but it does not relinquish them from helping others. Giving to Archives is in the realm of the 7th tradition. Shakey Mike Gwirtz Philadelphia, Pennsylvania IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4061. . . . . . . . . . . . Gail La C. and the house at 855 Ardmore From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2007 3:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a scanned copy of the initial legal document (the purchase agreement) for the sale of Dr. Bob's house at 855 Ardmore Avenue (see the photo of the property on p. 41 of "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers"). It was sent to me by "DONALD BENNITT" dbennitt@sbcglobal.net (dbennitt at sbcglobal.net), for which I greatly thank him. If I may summarize the principle parts of the purchase agreement: - - - - Spalding Realty Co, Option to Purchase Real Estate, dated October 5, 1984. Seller: Theodore F. Walter Buyer: Gail La C. For the property at 855 Ardmore Avenue, Akron, Ohio 44302 for a total price of $38,000.00. It was accompanied by $500.00 earnest money. This option was set up so that the next stages of the purchase would have to be made before 5:00 p.m. on April 3, 1985, including appropriate written notification and the receipt by the seller of an additional $2,500.00. The purchase agreement was signed by the seller and by the buyer Gail La C., c/o Attorney Frank Miller, 1113 Centran Bldg., Akron, OH 44308 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4062. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr.Bob''s house, Gail L. and the Founders Foundation From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 5:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHL's, Shakey Mike contacted Gail L.,the Akron Archivist, and asked her what her role was in obtaining the Dr. Bob House in Akron. Gail replied and allowed me to reprint her emails. Gail commented, - - - - "I alone negotiated the purchase of Dr. Bob's home and held it in name while the Foundation continued to collect money. The negotiated purchase document froze the deal until it could actually be transferred to Founders' Foundation. I still have a copy of the document with only my name on it. "However, I was an early member and part of the Founders Foundation. I was the one chosen to make the deal and I did so in my name. It was not the final mortgage that I signed. "Does that help??" - - - - In a second posting she further added, "There is a man on the board of Dr. Bob's house by the name of Bruce who is writing up the history of the purchase of the home for their web page. He should help add clarity to the history of the purchase of the home. "I showed him many of the early documents. I guess you could share what I shared with you. It was decided that I would be the one to negotiate the purchase because I knew the owner and had approached him on my own with interest in the house. I was sworn to secrecy and was to tell no one. Gail" - - - - What this means is that she bid on the house and froze the deal until the actual mortgage was secured. It was the details of the securing of the final mortgage arrangement that I previously posted. It seems that so many worked in various ways to secure Dr. Bob's house for all of us that it gets back to the basics of AA. Stay sober and help the newcomer. Dr.Bob's home has helped so many and will continue to help others. The birthplace of AA is a national treasure. A lot of AA's came together in a time of need to help each other to help others by giving unselfishly and preserving our past for our future. It may have been wrong of me initially to want to give all the credit to Wesley P., or Kay, or any other individual when this prosess of getting and preserving our Dr. Bob house was brought about through a divine process in which many participated. This does,however, allow us the opportunity to record for others the correct sequence of events that led to this event. Your's in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Going to Phoenix in Sept. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4063. . . . . . . . . . . . Gail La C. and the National Archives Workshops From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2007 3:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gail La C. (Akron, Ohio) is best known in the fellowship for having spearheaded the formation of the National Archives Workshops. She was one of the key people on the planning committees which organized the ones which were held in Akron. I am trying to create a list of the workshops in order, and where they were held. In going through my files, I am finding a lot of gaps. I apologize for not having written these things down. But could the members of the AAHL help me reconstruct the full list? - - - - 1st 1996 Akron 2nd 1997 Akron 3rd 1998 Akron 4th 1999 5th 2000 6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana 7th 2002 8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 9th 2004 Murfreesboro, Tennessee (near Nashville) 10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana (originally set for New Orleans, but had to be postponed a year because of the hurricane) 11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona - - - - There was one in Chicago, I believe (perhaps the 5th) and one on the west coast (which must have been the 7th), but I did not keep any notes in my files on these. I was not at the first Akron conference, but attended the second one, where I got to meet Gail, Ernie Kurtz, Mel Barger, and Mary Darrah, among others, for the first time. I was on the planning committee for the one in Indiana (along with Floyd P. and Frank N. from Indiana, Jim Dorrycott who built the excellent Tennessee archival repository, and Rick T. from Illinois). I spoke (along with Sgt. Bill S.) at the one in Fort Lauderdale (where I got to meet a lot of fine people), and attended the one in Tennessee (where I got to tour the Upper Room headquarters for the first time, a place that I believe ought to be put on the short list of "sacred sites" for AA people to visit when they are passing through that state, especially the Upper Room Chapel). But I think it would be good to get a full listing, and more details on these National Archives Workshops, because they have been so important in the creation of a new historical awareness and interest among people in the AA fellowship, not only in the U.S. and Canada, but all over the world. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4064. . . . . . . . . . . . List of the National Archives Workshops From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2007 6:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE COMPLETE LIST OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES WORKSHOPS 1st 1996 Akron 2nd 1997 Akron 3rd 1998 Akron 4th 1999 Chicago, Illinois 5th 2000 Seattle, Washington 6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana (across Ohio river from Louisville, Kentucky) 7th 2002 San Bernardino, California 8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 9th 2004 Murfreesboro, in central Tennessee (about forty miles from Nashville) 10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana (originally set for New Orleans, but the hurricane struck in 2005) 11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona - - - - Cindy Miller and Sally Brown completed the list for us. Thanks! Glenn Chesnut, Moderator. - - - - From Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) HI-- I think 1999 was in Chicago, 2000 was in Seattle, and 2001 was Louisville, KY. cm - - - - From: "Sally Brown" (rev.sally at worldnet.att.net) Hi, Glenn, Sept 26-29, 2002, San Bernardino, California. Dave and I were speakers that year. It was loads of fun meeting folks. Were you there? Shalom - Sally IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4065. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 6:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Guys, Living Sober has the following: 24 Steering clear of emotional entanglements So, using "First Things First," we have found it helpful to concentrate first on sobriety alone, steering clear of any risky emotional entanglements. Immature or premature liaisons are crippling to recovery. Only after we have had time to mature somewhat beyond merely not drinking, are we equipped to relate maturely to other people. Love, in Fellowship Robin F. Australia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4066. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: Doucet, Dale T . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a video that I watched at Doctor Bob's house not too long ago. In this video they make mention of the first "AA couple" and I think it stated that one of the recently sober members committed suicide soon after the relationship started or ended. The video goes on to mention that this failed relationship came from ignoring the one year suggestion. Thanks, Dale D IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4067. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant February Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 6:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang. Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill and sophomore class suspended Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from professionalization. Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use in his practice. Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts" for "we ought" in the Big Book. Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC. Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in pamphlet form for many years. Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA. Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is published. Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get married. Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner. Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA by Larry J. Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died. Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank P "The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this as happening Feb 13, 1937 Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition) sobriety date. Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W. Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem, NC. Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was born. Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members. Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two years before, at a New York AA meeting. Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases. Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA dies. Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on AA by Seymour Rothman. Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to tape the Big Book. Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4068. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 6:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family plot in Vermont to see if there's a gravestone for Bertha? Even though she was never buried in Vermont, it's common practice to have uncompleted grave markers. If there's a gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then there would be some basis for Bill's claim that he visited Bertha's gravesite. john lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4069. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: David Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2007 12:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In addition to some specific advice in this area of relationships, it has been indirectly but quite thoroughly addressed to the fellow member and/or sponsor of that person in the Big Book, p.69 and 70. All quotes come from these two pages. "We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct." And then the advice for the person in question: "We reviewed our own conduct over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it. In this way we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future sex life. We subjected each relation to this test - was it selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them. We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be despised and loathed. Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing to grow toward it. We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm, provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing. In other words, we treat sex as we would any other problem. In meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come, if we want it." Back to everyone else: "God alone can judge our sex situation. Counsel with persons is often desirable, but we let God be the final judge." We're human, we'll probably make mistakes. What then? "Suppose we fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble? Does this mean we are going to get drunk? Some people tell us so. But this is only a half-truth. It depends on us and on our motives. If we are sorry for what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned our lesson. If we are not sorry, and our conduct continues to harm others, we are quite sure to drink." Then Bill closes with the following: "To sum up about sex: We earnestly pray for the right ideal, for guidance in each questionable situation, for sanity, and for the strength to do the right thing. If sex is very troublesome, we throw ourselves the harder into helping others. We think of their needs and work for them. This takes us out of ourselves. It quiets the imperious urge, when to yield would mean heartache." Personal responsibility, personal choice, self-examination, open to guidance from God and others, provided: "We realize that some people are as fanatical about sex as others are loose. We avoid hysterical thinking or advice." He describes fanatics this way: "One school would allow man no flavor for his fare and the other would have us all on a straight pepper diet. We want to stay out of this controversy." Finally, it's probably important to note that it is primarily religions which are cited when talking about the de facto "sin" of pre-marital sex. Given AA has NO affiliation with "any related facility or outside enterprise including, for example, Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism," it can hardly dictate group and individual morality based on any specific religion. Steps two, six and ten act as protection against those who would dictate any particular flavor of morality and direction. Having said all of this, a fellow member or a sponsor, sharing her or his personal experience, strength and hope in this area would prove quite helpful, perhaps even indispensable, to anyone interested in exploring this or any other topic and cannot be dismissed out of hand. One drunk talking to another. > AAHL, > A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically > in either the Big Book or the 12and12 if the subject > of refraining from relationships (or any other > thing that might interfere with sobriety) for > the first year or so. > > That's the general wisdom of my home group > and I've heard that advice given before, but > I don't know if it's ever been addressed in > any Conference-approved literature, or on this > site, for that matter. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated! > > Spiritus contra spiritum! > Terry P. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4070. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 3:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Barry, I suggest that you hang on to that book; there are probably few copies around. You probably know it was written by Jerome Ellison, who had a great career as a writer and editor before alcoholism laid him low. He came back in sobriety to become a fairly successful writer again and was, for a short time, editor of the Grapevine. He was also a professor at Indiana University for seven years. I met him once at the Grapevine offices and also spent an afternoon visiting with him at his home in Guilford, CT., in early 1964. He passed away many years ago. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Murtaugh To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:01 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Twelve Steps and the Older Member Hi Folks, Here on my desk is a paperback with a blue coated stock cover with the numeral "12" in gold on it, upper right corner. Cover is glued to stapled text pages, 5 1/2" x 7 1/8" Inside is the title page: "TWELVE STEPS and the older Member" Publisher line is: "Older Member Press,Box 25, Guilford, Conn" Copyright page: "Copyright 1964 by Older Member Press First Serial rights granted A.A. Grapevine 1954 through 1963; all other rights retained by copyright owner. First Printing June, 1964. Library of Congress catalog number:64-22572 Price Two Dollars" Great lines from the intro: "The newest newcomer is just as authentically an explorer into the infinite as were Bill and Bob when they founded AA on June 10,1935. Nobody can take the Tweve Steps for anybody else. Each individual who sets his foot on the road suggested by the Steps finds himself on his own endlessly challenging, sometime perilous journey into undiscovered territory." In Gratitude 12/24/06 Happy Christmas from Barrington, IL Barry Barry Murtaugh CMLJBM@VOYAGER.NET [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4071. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2007 6:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family plot in Vermont to see if there's a gravestone for Bertha? Even though she was never buried in Vermont, it's common practice to have uncompleted grave markers. If there's a gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then there would be some basis for Bill's claim that he visited Bertha's gravesite. john lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4072. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2007 2:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'd like to correct a mistake in my earlier post. The Factory Point Cemetery is in Manchester Center (about 2 mi from Burr and Burton Academy where Bill W. and Bertha Bamford were seniors), not in Dorsett, as I stated. "Pass It On" quotes articles in the Manchester Journal which state that Bertha's remains were placed in a receiving vault at Center Cemetery on November 22 "to be taken on to Jeffersonville, Ind, Mrs. Bamford's home, for interment." The Center Cemetery referred to is probably the Factory Point Cemetery in Manchester Center. Since Bertha was interred in Indiana on November 28th, it would seem that Bill could have visited the receiving vault in Manchester Center for no more than a couple days before Bertha's remains were sent by rail to their final rest at the Walnut Ridge Cemetery in Jeffersonville, Indiana. Though Bill might have been unable to visit Bertha's gravesite, he might well have mourned her passing at the Delwood Cemetery, a beautiful, tranquil cemetery very near the school. John K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4073. . . . . . . . . . . . Legacy of Wesley P Big Book Study and Purchasing Dr Bobs House... From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 1:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There were also a good contribution from Members in Australia towards the purchase of Dr. Bob's house. This was as a result of Wesley's (and Wayne P from Hugoton Kansas who was Wesley's travelling mate) visit in 1978 during which time they stayed with my wife and I and family for circa 2 weeks and helped start a number of Big Book Studies and give talks on the Traditions. Wayne P spent further time close time with us both in Australia and at his Rocky Mountain retreat and was always enthusiastic in creating attraction towards the Dr. Bob House Foundation and the legacy Wesley P left after his passing in 1985. Wesley was not well enough to make the 50th Anniversary International in Montreal but Wayne P arranged for some of us including Charlie and Joe to talk to Wesley by phone. As part of his legacy Wesley sure did us all proud in New Orleans 1980 when he and Wayne P organised a luncheon with Lois W as the guest of Honour!!! Wesley had planted audio copies of the Charlie and Joe Big Book Study cassette under selected chairs. Wesley had worked out who may well make good use of this material and his selections proved reasonably correct. The was a good number of Members from Australia at the luncheon and when we bought Charlie and Joe here during the 1980's they attributed the success to the growth in their approach, to the its real kick start God had provided through Wesley P's enthusiasm. This coming March 2007 a Big Book Study Weekend will be conducted in the Gold Coast of Queensland Australia and one of the Members (Peter McK) coordinating the weekend was at that luncheon at the Marriott in New Orleans in 1980. Wesley always talked about enthusiasm coming from an ancient word meaning "God Within!!!!" He sure generated some enthusiasm in his short time DownUnder in Australia. Kind Regards, John R from Brisbane Tradition Group Queensland Australia. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4074. . . . . . . . . . . . The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Jari Kokkinen . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2007 4:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everybody! While I've been reading your comments on the study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring myself into asking you all that know or have thoughts about what is the foundation and current state of AA's division in Mexico. This I ask because in Finland we too have two competing service structures. Any thoughts appreciated. In Sobriety, Jari from Finland ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos is now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo. http://uk.photos.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4075. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2007 4:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is this the same Jerome Ellison who wrote a piece in the Saturday Evening Post about Narcotics Anonymous? (These Drug Addicts Cure One Another - Aug. 7, 1954) and Al-Anon (Help For The Alcoholic's Family - July 2, 1955) I found this online: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9503E7DD1338F933A25755C0A9679 48260 Jerome Ellison, Author And Ex-Collier's Editor Published: June 10, 1981 Jerome Ellison, author and former managing editor of Collier's, died yesterday in the Connecticut Hospice in Branford. He was 73 years old. For a number of years, he had lived in Guilford, Conn. Mr. Ellison was a founder of Associated Magazine Contributors, a corporation begun in 1946 as an owner-contributor publication. Among the co-owners were Pearl Buck, Roger Butterfield, John Steinbeck and John Dos Passos. The pocket-sized magazine appeared on newsstands as '47 Magazine and lasted a few years. A longtime magazine contributor and editor, Mr. Ellison had worked on Life, Liberty and The Reader's Digest, as well as Collier's. During World War II, he was editorial director of the Bureau of Overseas Publications of the Office of War Information. Mr. Ellison's books included ''The Prisoner Ate a Hearty Breakfast,'' ''John Brown's Soul,'' ''The Dam'' and ''Report to the Creator.'' Surviving are two daughters, Judith Ogden of Lincoln, Mass., and Julie Ellison of Ann Arbor, Mich., and a grandson. _____ From: Mel Barger Subject: Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member Hi Barry, I suggest that you hang on to that book; there are probably few copies around. You probably know it was written by Jerome Ellison, who had a great career as a writer and editor before alcoholism laid him low. He came back in sobriety to become a fairly successful writer again and was, for a short time, editor of the Grapevine. He was also a professor at Indiana University for seven years. I met him once at the Grapevine offices and also spent an afternoon visiting with him at his home in Guilford, CT., in early 1964. He passed away many years ago. Mel Barger (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4076. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2007 10:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That's a good thought, John. However, the Bamfords did not have a family plot in Vermont. In the Archives article that Gary L. referenced earlier (http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f- 151_markings_winter06.pdf), William W. writes that he found gravesites for Bertha as well as her parents in the Jeffersonville, Indiana, cemetery. From what I've been able to find out about the Bamfords, Rev. Walter H. Bamford, Bertha's father, was born in Hampshire, England in 1856 and came to this country at the age of 34. He died in 1926, 14 years after Bertha. Her mother, Julia Reed Bamford, was born in Jeffersonville, Indiana, in 1856 and died at the ripe old age of 101. The archives article says they're buried under a common headstone nearby Bertha in Jeffersonville. Bertha also had a brother, a year younger, named Walter H. Bamford, Jr.. I haven't been able to find out too much about him except that he lived for a time in Passaic, NJ and New York City and worked in advertising (I think). Here's another piece of Bamford trivia. In the Zion Church which still stands in Manchester and where Bertha's father was rector, is the following inscription on the beautiful brass lectern: To the Glory of God and in Loving Memory of Bertha Dorothea Bamford at Rest - November 19, 1912 - R.I.P. John K. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Lee wrote: > > Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family > plot in Vermont to see if there's a gravestone > for Bertha? Even though she was never buried > in Vermont, it's common practice to have > uncompleted grave markers. If there's a > gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then there > would be some basis for Bill's claim that he > visited Bertha's gravesite. > > john lee > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4077. . . . . . . . . . . . Baltimore Chip House: name of chart on wall From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2007 12:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: (joejackson_40 at yahoo.com) I stopped by the Chip House the other day to see a friend celebrate an anniversary. The chart that Rob W. linked to is very similar to that on the wall at 2613 N. Calvert Street. The salient difference is that at the bottom of the chart Rob noted there is a single, broad loop indicating the vicious cycle with which many of us are far too familiar. At the bottom of the chart at the Chip House is a series of smaller, seemingly interconnected loops indicating the same cycle. Here's what I noted as the source of the chart at the Chip House: The chart on the wall was distributed at the time of its printing by the National Council on Alcohol Dependency. It was reprinted from the British Journal of Addiction Vol. 54 No. 2 in a paper called "Group Therapy in Alcoholism" by M.M. Glatt PhD. BTW -- the Chip House was renovated a few years ago. It's brighter and much less smokey now; no smoking is allowed, in fact, even in front of the place. During the renovation, the chart was relocated. It now hangs in the main room on the wall to the left as one enters the room from Calvert Street. The Charles Village Group still holds AA Meetings every day at the Chip House. I heard this (paraphrase) in my first year from a low-bottom drunk who'd recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body: "I'm not sure where you'll find God, but I know He lives at the Chip House." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4078. . . . . . . . . . . . Wilson House Fire 1/28/07, E. Dorset VT From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2007 8:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An excerpt from a message from Dean at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson was born) on Wed. 1/31/07: No warm fire to enjoy this time. A real scary chimney fire struck Sunday Night during my solitary shift. The Fire Dept. responded very fast thanks to neighbors calling 911, and the major damage was contained to the upper portion of the Chimney. (Working at the desk, I had no visual or auditory warning that a conflagration had started.) The intense heat warped and partially melted the exterior cap and dampener, and fractured the protective liner in several places at the attic level exposing the stone and mortar. If there had been any significant delay in notification or response time, the roof and attic would have ignited. The repairs won't come cheap; the top of the chimney needs to be extended higher to meet clearance code; but the bottom line is that the Wilson House is intact! DEAN IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4079. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Wesley P''s concordance From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2007 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have seen about three copies of Poe's book sell on eBay for about $140 each over the past year. There were apparently two printings, 1990 and 1999. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) Dang it ... I purchased a couple of those $25 raffle tickets and didn't get my concordance. - - - - From: (dcatini at bellsouth.net) Just try online. There are many out there. Put concordance to BB in Google. It will come up. Sincerely, Denise - - - - >From: "momaria33772" >(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) > >I'm not sure specifically which Concordance is >referred to here, however, my friend Ray G., >the Dr. Bob's Home archivist,is a snow bird >here in Florida. > >He has a few copies of the huge blue hardcover >available, this is written by Stephen Poe >printed by Purple Salamander press 1990. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4080. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe and Charlie workshops functioning again From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 5:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charlie P. just did the "Big Book Comes Alive Weekend" at Cocoa Beach, Forida on January 19-21, 2007. I have the entire weekend on CD. Joe is still not back on the road so Charlie was ably assisted by Wes B. of Canada. Maria Hoffman, Vision Audio Tapes and CD's -- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, CBBB164@... wrote: > > No they are not. Joe McQ has become the victim > of Parkinson's disease and was replaced by Joe McC. > > Charlie P. recently had a hip replacement and Joe > McC. has had a number of serious health problems. > > In God's love and service, > > Cliff Bishop > http://www.ppgaadallas.org > > - - - - - - > > From: Ollie Olorenshaw > ollie_olorenshaw@... > (ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au) > > As far as I am aware Joe and Charlie are no > longer conducting workshops but recordings of > past workshops are available from various places. > Here is one. > > www.12steptapes.com > > and another > > www.xa-speakers.org > > best wishes > > Ollie > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4081. . . . . . . . . . . . Pray for those against whom we hold a resentment From: Emmanuel . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 4:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me where it says to "pray for 2 weeks that the person I am resentful of receive all the happiness I would want" Peace and Happy Days o~`o Emmanuel S. John - - - - From the moderator: This is from the story "Freedom from Bondage," Big Book, first appearing in the 2nd ed. The passage is on p. 552 in both the 3rd ed. and 4th ed. "'If you have a resentment you want to be free of, if you will pray for the person or the thing that you resent, you will be free. If you will ask in prayer for everything you want for yourself to be given to them, you will be free .... Do it every day for two weeks and you will find you have come to mean it and to want it for them, and you will realize that where you used to feel bitterness and resentment and hatred, you now feel compassionate understanding and love.'" Mel Barger thinks the prominent clergyman referred to in the Big Book story as the source of that advice may have been Norman Vincent Peale, but has been unable to find the specific issue of the magazine where the article about resentment appeared: - - - - Message 3301 from Mel Barger http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3301 Hi Friends: I would like to know the exact source of a wonderful quotation on dealing with resentment that appears in "Freedom From Bondage," a personal story in the Big Book. The personal story was first used in the 2nd edition, published in 1955, and has been retained in the 3rd and 2nd editions, which indicates that the editors felt it was of superior quality. Here's the quotation, which can be found on p. 552 of the 4th (latest) edition. The author said she found it in a magazine article and that it was about getting rid of resentment. It was by a prominent clergyman. He said, in effect: If you have a resentment you want to be free of, if you will pray for the person or the thing that you resent, you will be free. If you will ask in prayer for everything you want for yourself to be given to them, you will be free. Ask for their health, their prosperity, their happiness, and you will be free. Even when you don't really want it for them and your prayers are only words and you don't mean it, go ahead and do it anyway. Do it every day for two weeks, and you will find you have come to mean it and to want it for them, and you will realize that where you used to feel bitterness and resentment and hatred, you now feel compassionate understanding and love." The author went on to say it worked for her then and worked for her since and worked every time she was willing to work it. Who was the prominent clergyman who authored this quotation? My guess is that it was Norman Vincent Peale, who became very prominent with his 1952 publication of that blockbuster, "The Power of Positive Thinking." He was a good friend of AA and even devoted a large part of one chapter in that book to AA. But does anyone know where the above quotation appeared? It had to be before 1955, because that's when it first appeared in the Big Book. It was in a magazine with the word "resentment" on the cover, as this is what caught the Big Book writer's attention. It might have been in Guideposts magazine and slightly different from the quotation shown above, as the author used "in effect" in presenting it. It's a great quotation, by the way, and ought to be put on a card and passed around at meetings, especially when resentment is the topic. Come to think of it, I think I'll do that for my group her in Toledo and any of the History Lovers could easily download it from this message and circulate it in their own groups. LOL to All, Mel Barger, Toledo, Ohio melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4082. . . . . . . . . . . . When and how did Founders'' Day start? From: Robyn Mitchell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2007 11:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there, Can anyone tell me when and how the celebration of Founders' Day in Akron first got started? Many thanks to all of you for your love of God, Alcoholics and Alcoholics Anonymous, Robyn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4083. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... From: Dale D. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2007 10:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doucet, Dale T" wrote: > > There is a video that I watched at Doctor Bob's > house not too long ago. In this video they make > mention of the first "AA couple" and I think it > stated that one of the recently sober members > committed suicide soon after the relationship > started or ended. The video goes on to mention > that this failed relationship came from ignoring > the one year suggestion. > > Thanks, > Dale D > I don't know who eddited my message but they changed the meaning. The point was that it was this failed relationship that the video claims "STARTED" the suggested of one year before relationships. Thanks, Dale D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4084. . . . . . . . . . . . Tombstones of AA folks on the Find A Grave website From: Karl Kleen . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2007 8:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Some internet links to photos of tombstones of AA connected folks on the Find A Grave website: Father Ed Dowling: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=16958125& Antoinette B Silkworth: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=11339783& William Duncan Silkworth: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=11339789& Anne Ripley Smith: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=5769885& Robert Holbrook "Doctor Bob" Smith: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=2536& Lois Burnham Wilson: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=3025& William G. "Bill" Wilson: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=2535& IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4085. . . . . . . . . . . . Faithful Fivers From: dallasaa95 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2007 11:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the background of this term? We use it for anyone giving to the Dallas Central Office on a monthly basis regardless of the actual amount. I was curious as to the origins for this and similar terms. Thanks, Janis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4086. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2007 12:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been away from the GSA for a while but here is what I remember of the Mexican situation. The original Conference in Mexico had gotten so far out of whack that at one point an AA Big Book cost nearly $30 (American). 20,000 Mexican AA's seceded from that Conference and formed a Conference called Seccion Mexico. AA New York would not recognize them and there was a problem getting books. That began the printing and distribution to Seccion of the little Big Book by what is now Anonymous Press. A lot of this is really unclear to my memory but basically that is what happened. It degenertaed to awful proportions and AAWS was suspected by many to be complicit in the events that followed; up to and including the arrest by the Federales of Seccion Mexico's trusted servants, the confiscation of their materials and the closing of the office. Many AAs in this Conference (US and Canada) including former Northeast Regional Trustee to the GSB, Jake H., protested AAWS's role in this mess and even went to Mexico to help untangle it. Apparently Seccion Mexico survived but I don't know its status today. That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding its power disgracefully. I remember it actually solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000 just to grant San Diego the favor of holding our Intenational Convention there in 1995. Then there was the German situation where an AA was taken to court and bankrupted with the full approval of our General Service Office. Oh ...don't get me going! lee --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jari Kokkinen wrote: > > Hi everybody! > > While I've been reading your comments on the > study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring > myself into asking you all that know or have > thoughts about what is the foundation and current > state of AA's division in Mexico. > > This I ask because in Finland we too have two > competing service structures. > > Any thoughts appreciated. > > In Sobriety, > > Jari from Finland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4087. . . . . . . . . . . . 12x12 Question From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2007 6:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did Bill Wilson write the foreword to the 12x12? I have a 12x12 printed probably in the early '90s but there is no indication of printing number or date. A footnote on p. 15 says "In 1990. . . approximately two million have recovered through A.A." and a footnote on p. 18 says, "In 1990, A.A. is established in 134 countries." A list of the printings of the book show that the 43rd and 44th were printed in 1990. I wonder if any listers have these printings or might know which printing my mystery book is? Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4088. . . . . . . . . . . . Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2007 10:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I came across this regarding Bill Wilson's spiritual experience: ". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had gone through such an experience on Mount Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed to the altar of the local Congregational Church; announced that he had been saved; and never drank again for the rest of his life." I am looking for some documentation of this event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone please direct and advise? Has anyone even heard this before? Thanks Peace, Danny Schwarzhoff - - - - From the moderator: One place this is described (I don't know if it is the only one) is in Susan Cheever, "My Name Is Bill" (New York: Washington Square Press, 2004), page 17: "William Wilson's drinking had led him to take a series of temperance pledges. One Sunday morning in despair he climbed to the top of Mount Aeolus and beseeched God to help him. He saw a blinding light and felt a great wind, and rushed down into town to interrupt the service at the Congregational Church. Demanding that the minister leave the pulpit, Wilson described his experience to the congregation of his friends, neighbors, and family. Emily loved this story about her husband's father, and she told it to her son and husband as often as they would listen. In the eight years William Wilson lived after that experience, he never had another drink." But remember that Bill W. (the co-founder of AA) rarely talked about his own vision of the light. He did not regard that as an important part of his message. In the Big Book (p. 12), he describes what he regarded as his real conversion experience as taking place when Ebby came to talk to him in his kitchen. "Scales ... fell from my eyes" was a reference to the story of the conversion of the Apostle Paul on the Road to Damascus, and would have been recognized by almost all Protestants in the 1930's and 40's, because people still read their Bibles in those days. In other words, almost everybody in AA realized in 1939 that Bill was saying here, by that choice of words, that "THIS was MY real conversion experience." What his real conversion experience consisted of was remembering his experience in Winchester Cathedral, when he had felt the sense of God's presence there, but had turned away from that kind of feeling of God consciousness, and tried to handle his life totally on the basis of his own will power and ability to analyze things intellectually and come up with grand theories. And he also remembered the grandfather who told him that you could experience this same intuition of the sacred and the infinite while gazing up at the starry heavens at night. You didn't have to go into a church to understand the feeling of the divine presence. To better understand what Bill W. was talking about in that part of the Big Book, see Rudolf Otto, "The Idea of the Holy: An Inquiry into the Non-Rational Factor in the Idea of the Divine and Its Relation to the Rational." 2nd ed. Trans. John W. Harvey (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1950). Rudolf Otto was regarded as one of the two or three best theologians of that era. Although there is no indication that Bill W. had ever read Otto's book, many of the authors whom he DID read had read that book and were heavily influenced by Otto's ideas, including especially the people who were putting out The Upper Room, for whom the concept of maintaining continual "God consciousness" was extremely important. Given the difficulty of translating the English words "spirit" and "spirituality" into German, German-speaking AA's might find it very useful to read the original German of Otto's book, where he puts this in language which would be more intelligible within the context of German culture and traditional German vocabulary for talking about these issues: Rudolf Otto, "Das Heilige: Über das Irrationale in der Idee des göttlichen und sein Verhältnis zum Rationalen. 11th ed. Stuttgart: Friedrich Andreas Perthes, 1923. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4089. . . . . . . . . . . . Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical From: davidgolden99 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2007 3:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The beginner's group where I got sober used an "AA definition" of alcoholism that says the disease affects us "spiritually, mentally and physically, and we recover in the reverse order (physically, mentally, then spiritually)." Page 64 of the Big Book (4th ed.) says, "When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically." Is there an actually "AA definition" which reverses the order, and if so, what is its source? Is there a text, or is it part of an oral AA tradition? Why is the recovery in this definition which I was given the opposite of what is written in "How It Works?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4090. . . . . . . . . . . . Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? Hartigan''s book From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2007 5:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 09:30 2/10/2007 , Danny S wrote: >Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I >came across this regarding Bill Wilson's >spiritual experience: > >". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had >gone through such an experience on Mount >Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details >almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed >to the altar of the local Congregational Church; >announced that he had been saved; and never >drank again for the rest of his life." > >I am looking for some documentation of this >event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone >please direct and advise? Has anyone even >heard this before? Thanks > >Peace, > >Danny Schwarzhoff This same event is related in Francis Hartigan's book "Bill W., A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson," Thomas Dunne Books, New York, 2001, on pages 10-11. "Bill's grandfather Wilson also linked Mount Aeolus to a profound spiritual experience. . . . he climbed Mount Aeolus. There, after beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was a conversion experience that left him feeling so transformed that he practically ran down the mountain and into town. "When he reached the East Dorset Congregational Church, which is across the street from the Wilson House, the Sunday service was in progress. Bill's grandfather stormed into the church and demanded that the minister get down from the pulpit. Then, taking his place, he proceeded to relate his experience to the shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather never drank again. He was to live another eight years, sober." Hartigen does not give the source of this story. It is not mentioned in Thomsen's book. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4091. . . . . . . . . . . . Wynn Corum (Law) and Marty Mann From: ann . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2007 10:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've been a part of AA for many years and I have been researching the women of AA. Does anyone know if Wynn Corum and Marty Mann knew each other? and to what extent their personal relationship was (if any?) They were both some of the first women of AA. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4092. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2007 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jari, Seccion Mexico is doing fine: http://aa.org.mx/ From my friend Norm D. I think GSOs, like groups, tend to get enough problems that someone or some group of folks will break away and start 'new' doing it the "right way" Jay --- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups.com, Jari Kokkinen wrote: > > Hi everybody! > > While I've been reading your comments on the > study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring > myself into asking you all that know or have > thoughts about what is the foundation and current > state of AA's division in Mexico. > > This I ask because in Finland we too have two > competing service structures. > > Any thoughts appreciated. > > In Sobriety, > > Jari from Finland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4093. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Tom H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2007 11:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To the moderator, this is not true... "That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding its power disgracefully. I remember it actually solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000 just to grant San Diego the favor of holding our Intenational Convention there in 1995." ...from the email below. - - - - - - - - San Diego had promised a transportation system that it did not deliver. As a result GSO had to pay for our membership to get back and forth to the venues. The check San Diego paid to GSO is only the same amount GSO paid for transportation. When a group (GSO) brings about 50 million dollars to a city this is nothing more than standard business practice. Does a city get the Olympics without promising to provide certain construction for venues and transportation? This is how false rumors get started. Thank you -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) I have been away from the GSA for a while but here is what I remember of the Mexican situation. The original Conference in Mexico had gotten so far out of whack that at one point an AA Big Book cost nearly $30 (American). 20,000 Mexican AA's seceded from that Conference and formed a Conference called Seccion Mexico. AA New York would not recognize them and there was a problem getting books. That began the printing and distribution to Seccion of the little Big Book by what is now Anonymous Press. A lot of this is really unclear to my memory but basically that is what happened. It degenertaed to awful proportions and AAWS was suspected by many to be complicit in the events that followed; up to and including the arrest by the Federales of Seccion Mexico's trusted servants, the confiscation of their materials and the closing of the office. Many AAs in this Conference (US and Canada) including former Northeast Regional Trustee to the GSB, Jake H., protested AAWS's role in this mess and even went to Mexico to help untangle it. Apparently Seccion Mexico survived but I don't know its status today. That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding its power disgracefully. I remember it actually solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000 just to grant San Diego the favor of holding our Intenational Convention there in 1995. Then there was the German situation where an AA was taken to court and bankrupted with the full approval of our General Service Office. Oh ...don't get me going! lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4094. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? From: Emmanuel . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2007 9:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It might also be worth noting that Bill's grandfather lived in the house right next door to the church. THis church is about 25 feet from the house. He would have had to run past the front door of the church to get home. For those who have not been there, this town has a total of about 10-15 houses, very small, and if he were to try and find anyone else he would have had to enter the bar (where the liquor was), now known as the Wilson House. Emmanuel Baltimore On 2/10/07, Tom Hickcox wrote: > > At 09:30 2/10/2007 , Danny S wrote: > > >Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I > >came across this regarding Bill Wilson's > >spiritual experience: > > > >". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had > >gone through such an experience on Mount > >Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details > >almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed > >to the altar of the local Congregational Church; > >announced that he had been saved; and never > >drank again for the rest of his life." > > > >I am looking for some documentation of this > >event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone > >please direct and advise? Has anyone even > >heard this before? Thanks > > > >Peace, > > > >Danny Schwarzhoff > > This same event is related in Francis Hartigan's > book "Bill W., A Biography of Alcoholics > Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson," Thomas Dunne > Books, New York, 2001, on pages 10-11. > > "Bill's grandfather Wilson also linked Mount > Aeolus to a profound spiritual experience. . . . > he climbed Mount Aeolus. There, after > beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding > light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was > a conversion experience that left him feeling > so transformed that he practically ran down > the mountain and into town. > > "When he reached the East Dorset Congregational > Church, which is across the street from the > Wilson House, the Sunday service was in > progress. Bill's grandfather stormed into > the church and demanded that the minister get > down from the pulpit. Then, taking his place, > he proceeded to relate his experience to the > shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather > never drank again. He was to live another > eight years, sober." Hartigen does not give > the source of this story. > > It is not mentioned in Thomsen's book. > > Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4095. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2007 12:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Lee History is supposed to propagate facts not beliefs. If you would care to review "the other side" of the German lawsuit story, please refer to AAHL messages 2860, 2873 and 2907. Message 2860 contains a General Service Board report to the 2004 General Service Conference. It details how from 1993 (and for over a decade) they tried to get the German AA member to stop violating German copyright law (he was actually distributing Big Books in several countries in several languages). Message 2873 responds to a criticism posted in AAHL that echoed the same litany of criticisms that have been directed at the GSB, AAWS and GSO. Message 2907 is a detailed analysis of the German Big Book translation versus the English counterpart. The most stunning discovery was how the German AA member, who is portrayed as some sort of martyr (no pun intended on his name) had no factual basis for his claims that the German Big Book translation removed reference to "God" and "spirituality" from text. His whole case rested on torturous semantic hair-splitting of the use of the German words "geistig" and "seelisch" in the translation instead of his preferred German word "spirtuelle." There is a point of interest regarding the past $30 Big Book price in Mexico (which today's Spanish language version costs $6 from AAWS). The $3.50 price of the 1939 first edition Big Book would be the equivalent of around $50 in 2006 dollars. It was a very expensive book. An English language hard cover 4th edition Big Book today costs $6 from AAWS. That's about 1/8 of what it cost 1i 1939 (disregarding collector's value of course). It would be nice to give the GSB, AAWS and GSO some credit where credit is due. Cheers Arthur (PS haven't posted here in a while - been very, very busy) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4096. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wynn Corum (Law) and Marty Mann From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2007 1:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dave and I didn't come across Wynn Corum's name when we were researching the Marty Mann bio, but I would guess that both women did know each other. I would love to know about Wynn. City? Approximate sobriety date and age? Anything of her story? And what is Ann's particular interest? Etc? Thanks, and shalom - Sally - - - - Rev Sally Brown, coauthor with David R Brown: "A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous" Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4097. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2007 5:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would suggest it is the opposite of the definition you have written to ‘How It Works’, because of the way the big book defines the illness of alcoholism and also its solution. First the book defines the illness as being physical, then mental; and possibly spiritual (the so-called hole in the soul). Then it outlines the solution which is spiritual in nature to overcome the physical and mental; especially the mental. I would suggest that a recovery that appeared to be at first physical, then mental, then spiritual to be illusory. If I simply stopped drinking I would physically improve, but would I be recovering mentally? And if not mentally then how could I be recovering spiritually? By adopting a spiritual solution I am employing spiritual principles: honesty, openness, willingness, humility, etc. As well as in the other sense God to recover. Recovery must begin first with the spiritual, and as it begins I then begin to straighten out both physically and mentally. Here is Carl Jung’s letter to Bill W. (BELOW) I conclude do I straighten out physically, mentally and then wait for the miracle to happen; or is it the other way round? God bless Dave - - - - - - - - Carl Jung's letter to Bill W Your letter has been very welcome indeed. I had no news from Roland H. anymore and often wondered what had been his fate. Our conversation which he has adequately reported to you had an aspect of which he did not know. The reason that I could not tell him everything was that those days I had to be exceedingly careful of what I said. I had found out that I was misunderstood in every possible way. Thus I was very careful when I talked to Roland H. But what I really thought about, was the result of many experiences with men of his kind. His craving for alcohol was equivalent, on a low level, of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in medieval language: the union with God. How could one formulate such an insight in a language that is not misunderstood in our days? The only right and legitimate way to such an experience is, that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path that leads you to a higher understanding. You might be led to that goal by an act of grace or through a personal and honest contact with friends, or through a higher education of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism. I see from your letter that Roland H. has chosen the second way, which was, under the circumstances, obviously the best one. I am strongly convinced that the evil principle prevailing in this world leads the unrecognised spiritual need into perdition, if it is not counteracted either by real religious insight or by the protective wall of human community. And ordinary man, not protected by an action from above and isolated in society, cannot resist the power of evil, which is called very aptly the Devil. But the use of such words arouses so many mistakes that one can only keep aloof from them as much as possible. These are the reasons why I could not give a full and sufficient explanation to Roland H. but I am risking it with you because I conclude from your very decent and honest letter that you have acquired a point of view above the misleading platitudes one usually hears about alcoholism. You see, Alcohol in Latin is “spiritus” and you use the same word for the highest religious experience as well as for the most depraving poison. The helpful formula therefore is: SPIRITUS CONTRA SPIRITUM. Thanking you again for your kind letter. I remain sincerely yours C.G.Jung - - - - - - - - The beginner's group where I got sober used an "AA definition" of alcoholism that says the disease affects us "spiritually, mentally and physically, and we recover in the reverse order (physically, mentally, then spiritually)-." Page 64 of the Big Book (4th ed.) says, "When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically." Is there an actually "AA definition" which reverses the order, and if so, what is its source? Is there a text, or is it part of an oral AA tradition? Why is the recovery in this definition which I was given the opposite of what is written in "How It Works?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4098. . . . . . . . . . . . Ernie Kurtz, "Shame and Guilt," now available online From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2007 2:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernie Kurtz, "Shame and Guilt," 2nd ed. revised and updated, now available online. This second edition, which has recently been revised and updated, will soon appear in print. But the entire book is now available to read online, for those who would like to read it in that format: http://hindsfoot.org/kek1.html http://hindsfoot.org/eksg.html ______________________________ Originally published twenty-six years ago as Shame and Guilt: Characteristics of the Dependency Cycle (A Historical Perspective for Professionals). Center City, Minnesota: Hazelden, 1981. ______________________________ Also by Kurtz: Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous (Hazelden) The Spirituality of Imperfection (Bantam) The Collected Ernie Kurtz (The Bishop of Books) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4099. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wynn Corum (Law) and Marty Mann From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2007 4:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wynn Corum Laws stepdaughter Carolyn See wrote a book Dreaming: Hard Luck and Good Times in America, which more or less tells Wynn's story. I read it a few years ago and don't remember it mentioning Marty Mann or their knowing each other personally. Fiona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4100. . . . . . . . . . . . Passing of Nell Wing From: amytreau . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Friends: It is with great sadness that we share the news that Nell Wing died on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 at 7:00 p.m. after a lengthy illness. Nell was 89 years old. As most of you know, Nell was Bill W.'s secretary and assistant for 17 years and a close friend and long-time companion to Lois W. She worked at the General Service Office of A.A. from the beginning of 1947 until her retirement at the close of 1982, starting as a receptionist and later becoming secretary of A.A. World Services, Inc. Additionally, she served as G.S.O.'s first archivist for the last ten of her years at the office. The Archives opened in 1975. We would like to take a moment to celebrate Nell's life and share the following: From Markings, November/December 1983, when Nell announced her retirement in print: "…I hope to stay nearby; and never lessen interest in this fellowship, nor loosen the close bonds of friendship with my A.A. and Al-Anon friends. I'm forever grateful for this marvelous experience that began for me on March 3, 1947, at 415 Lexington Ave., New York City, in 3 small rooms of the Central Terminal Building. I have enjoyed and treasured every moment of it. I won't say `goodbye:' just want to extend my love and thanks to each one of you dear friends." Please join all of us at the General Service Office in extending our heartfelt condolences to Nell's family. Thank you, Amy Filiatreau Archivist AA World Services, Inc. filiatreaua@aa.org IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4101. . . . . . . . . . . . Nell Wing has passed From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 12:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm sorry to report to my AAHL friends that AA'S Number One Archivist, Miss Nell Wing, passed last evening at 7 P. M. Her nephew, another Bill W., called me earlier today to let me know that this dear sweet lady has gone to meet her maker and will be joining the other Giants of AA. Nell had been in a nursing home the last few years and her health had been declining. There will be a service on Saturday February 24th. from 1 P.M. to 5 P.M. at the Moore's Funeral Home 1591 Alps Rd Wayne , NJ 07470. The Funeral home has a web site www.mooresinfo.com http://www.mooresinfo.com (look under Nell Wing) The telephone # for Moore's is 973 694 0072 At 5 P.M. representatives of the US Coast Guard (Nell served there till 1946 when she came to AA) will present the family with a flag. If it were not for this lady there may not be an AAHL site because she started and collected our history. On the wall of her apartment hangs a certificate from the Smithsonian to Nell as AA's First Archivist. When the 4th edition of the Big Book came out we went to visit Nell and presented her with a 4th edition. She posed for photographs and signed some books and never stopped smiling. I think the one thing I will never forget about her is her smile. It never ended. Her apartment was a joy to see. She had pictures of the cofounders. as well as an oil painting of Bill and Bob. She was with Bill and Lois till the end. Many of the members of this site remember her for the help and friendliness she showed to a lot of drunks. May she rest in peace, The world is a better place because of this woman, Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4102. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History Pictures Presentation, Oak Ridge NJ, 3/1/07 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 3:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII “The Thursday Night Big Book Group” of Oak Ridge NJ presents An AA History Presentation with 190 Pictures of Early AA With Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ Area 44 History and Archives Chairperson March 1, 2007 7:00PM – 8:30PM St. Gabriel’s Church 153 Milton Road Oak Ridge, NJ It is pictures from the first 30 years of AA. Pictures of the Washingtonians,Frank Buchman, Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves, Ebby, Bill and Lois, Bill's parents and grandparents, Lois's parents, Dr. Bob's family, all the OH/VT places, Henrietta Seiberling, Bill D., Ernie G., Clarence S., Sr. Ignatia, all the N.Y. and N.J. places, Charlie Towns and Dr. Silkworth, Hank P., when the early literature was published, the Rockefeller dinner, gravesites, etc. It's very exciting, combining the stories with the images. Oak Ridge, New Jersey, is centrally located for lots of people on the East Coast, northwest of New York City, west of New Haven, Connecticut, and north of Philadelphia and Trenton. Less than an hour from a lot of places. DIRECTIONS TO ST. GABRIEL’S CHURCH: Coming from Route 23 North/South: turn onto Oak Ridge Road and follow for approx. 4 miles, going thru the light at Ridge Road/Lukoil gas station, make a right onto Legion Road/Milton Road (Milton Garage is on the left and St. Thomas Church is right in front of you), follow Milton Road approx. 1 mile and as you round the bend the church will be on your left, if you pass the firehouse on your left you have gone too far. Coming from Route 15 (Berkshire Valley Road): turn right onto Berkshire Valley Road south and follow approx. 7 miles and turn left onto Milton Road/Legion Road (by the Gulf Station and St. Thomas Church), follow 1/2 mile to the stop sign, bear to your left and the church will be on your left. Coming from Route 15 (to Weldon Road): follow Weldon Road to the end, bear right and follow Milton Road for approx 1 mile - firehouse will be on the right and the church will be on your left. *****If there is no parking left in the lot please park across the street, if you are not sure come inside and ask.***** For more information please call Rose M. 973-769-4337 (cell). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4103. . . . . . . . . . . . Mel B. on Nell Wing''s life From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 8:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII NELL WING By Mel B., Toledo, OH Many of us in AA feel that God brings the right people into our lives, at the right time and in the right way. This was certainly true of Nell Wing, who died on Wednesday, Febr. 14. She came to work at GSO in a temporary job in March 1947 and stayed until her retirement in 1982. Though a nonalcoholic, her devotion to AA became nearly absolute, and as the years passed she formed friendships with members throughout the world. She never married, and AA really became her extended family, with Bill and Lois Wilson as her surrogate parents. Nell was 29 when she reported to work at GSO (then called the Alcoholic Foundation). She had attended Keuka College in central New York state and served two years as a SPAR (a female Coast Guard sailor). She only wanted short-term employment until leaving for Mexico to study sculpture under the G.I. Bill. But as she recalled later, “From the beginning, I was caught by the A.A. Fellowship, particularly by the caring. It was not so much a general ‘caring for our fellowman,’ but a one-on-one caring, a love for one another without thought of any reward.” Mexico faded into the background, and she spent 35 years at GSO! Nell served as receptionist and did other clerical work at GSO before becoming Bill’s secretary in 1950. Highly competent as a secretary, she also became Bill’s staunch defender, giving him support and reassurance when members wrote angry letters or when he became plagued by self-doubt and depression. More than almost anybody, Nell knew how much Bill suffered when attacked by the very people who should have been grateful to him. After his death in 1971, she said she lost “my close friend and confidant, the big brother/father figure of my middle life.” She then became AA’s first archivist, with responsibility for organizing and filing all the documents and other records of our history. Though not trained in library science, she quickly learned the essentials of archiving and set up a logical system that works extremely well to this day. She also continued as Bill’s loyal advocate and carefully documented his specific contributions to AA’s origin, growth, and success. Nell and Lois became even closer after Bill’s passing. Nell often spent weekends with Lois at Stepping Stones and became concerned that the older woman insisted on living alone though becoming increasingly frail. Lois’s passing in 1988 was another great loss in her life. With a loving nephew as her guardian, Nell was a resident at a Sunrise Assisted Living home in New Jersey. ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4104. . . . . . . . . . . . Nell Wing Memorial Book From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2007 12:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Doug B. has set up a memorial book on the internet for those who would like to post a few words expressing their love for Nell and gratitude for all that she did, on the AAHistory website: http://www.aahistory.com Close to the top of the opening page on the website, it says: - - - - - - - - Nell Wing, Bill W.'s secretary and AA's first archivist, passed from this life February 14, 2007. You are invited to sign her memorial book at click here, and leave your thoughts. - - - - - - - - Clicking there will take you to: http://www.aahistory.com/nellwing/sign.php What you write there will be made available for Nell's family and friends. - - - - - - - - To see what was written in some of the other Memorial Books, see for example: Dr. Paul O. http://www.aahistory.com/drpaulo.html Searcy W. http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest12.html http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/guestbook12.html Nancy O. http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest17.html http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/guestbook17.html - - - - - - - - For additional information about the Memorial Book and/or the AAHistory website, contact: "Doug B." dougb@aahistory.com (dougb at aahistory.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4105. . . . . . . . . . . . Obituary: Nell Wing From: ~ the >i . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 11:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Nell Wing's obituary, as posted on the Moore's Funeral Home website: http://www.mooresinfo.com/ecom/sp/;cat=obituaries;obit=2949 ================ Janet E. (Now P.) Michigan "~ the >i< butterfly ~" (butterfly2.4.79 at comcast.net) emeritus archivist 1983-90 San Diego and Imperial Counties California A.A. ================ THE TEXT OF THE OBITUARY: Nellie Elizabeth Wing Home: Wayne, NJ Date of Death: February 14, 2007 Age: 89 Birthplace: Kendall, NY Birthdate: May 27, 1917 Service Date: Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 at 4:00 pm Visitation Date: Saturday, Feb 24, 2007 from 1-5PM Service Place: Moore's Home For Funerals, Wayne, NJ Final Disposition: Laurel Grove Crematory, Totowa, NJ Nellie Elizabeth Wing, age 89, died Wednesday, February 14, 2007 at Sunrise Assisted Living, Wayne. Ms. Wing was born May 27, 1917 in Kendall, NY the daughter of the late William Frank and the late Daisy (Shepard) Wing. She lived in Wayne and was formerly of New York, NY. Ms. Wing was a 1940 graduate of Keuka College in NY. From 1944 – 1946 she served in the US Coast Guard and earned the American Area Campaign Medal and The World War II Victory Campaign Medal. She was the Administrative assistant to Bill Wilson, the founder of A.A., in New York City from 1947 until 1982. After that, she traveled the world and became the 1st archivist for A.A. Ms. Wing attended the Lakeland Unitarian Universalist Fellowship, in Wayne. She was a Watercolor Artist and a Sculptor as well as the Author of the book: GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE. She is survived by Nephews; William L. Wing of West Milford, David Wing of PA, Michael Bowler of Las Vegas, NV and a Niece, Maria Oplatka of CA. She was predeceased by her Brothers, William F. and Roswell B. Wing and her Sister, Mary Bowler. Visiting hours will be Saturday, Feb. 24, 2007 from 1-5PM at Moore's Home for Funerals, 1591 Alps Road, Wayne, NJ. A service of will be held at 4:00 pm and will be celebrated by the family. Private cremation and burial to follow. Memorials may be made to the Alzheimer's Association, 400 Morris Ave, Suite 251, Denville, NJ 07853 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4106. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) From: Mike B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2007 3:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mike B., James Blair, and Mitchell K. - - - - - - - - From: "Mike B." (mikeb384 at verizon.net) "San Diego had promised a transportation system that it did not deliver. As a result GSO had to pay for our membership to get back and forth to the venues. The check San Diego paid to GSO is only the same amount GSO paid for transportation." "When a group (GSO) brings about 50 million dollars to a city this is nothing more than standard business practice. Does a city get the Olympics without promising to provide certain construction for venues andtransportation?" The above is absolutely correct. I worked in the convention and trade show industry for 41 years before retiring, and underwriting of certain expenses, usually shuttle transportation is common practice among major CVBs. It is a formula-based usually on number of sleeping rooms picked up. Mike B. Happy to be retired - - - - - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Tom H. wrote The check San Diego paid to GSO is only the same amount GSO paid for transportation. That may well be but when City Council publicly votes to give money to an organization which lays claim to be "self-supporting" it creates confusion in the minds of the public and the membership and leaves our spirituality open to question. Is that worth 150K? Jim - - - - - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) My mistake. I didn't think AA was supposed to be like every other business like IBM, DOW Chemical or the Olympics. Since when are we supposed to be like any other business with so-called standard business practices like being cut-throat, discriminating against employees, canceling pensions and the like. Are we using standard business practices like Enron? Lest problems of MONEY, PROPERTY (Intellectual and other property), PRESTIGE and POWER divert us from our primary purpose. GSO doesn't bring $50 million dollars anywhere - AA MEMBERS BROUGHT THAT MONEY! Please do not forget that AA is comprised of members and not that business in NYC. ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IS A FELLOWSHIP OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO MEET TO SHARE THEIR EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH AND HOPE WITH EACH OTHER. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4107. . . . . . . . . . . . Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info From: Mike Brewer . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2007 9:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have any biographical information on Henry Parkhurst and/or his family/genealogy? I am trying to work out his genealogy and all his family connections, but the family was so large, I am having difficulty working it out without having more biographical data on him. Any info about him could be a big help. Birth/death dates, locations, parents' names, etc. Thanks, Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4108. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. Letter? From: rollemupjohnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2007 10:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm looking for the source of a Bill W. quote: "I want to remind myself and anyone who would listen that AA is not a personal success story. It is instead the story of our colossal human failures...now converted into the happiest kind of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living grace of God" Thanks, JKell13@BellSouth.net (JKell13 at BellSouth.net) or RollEmUpJohnson@Yahoo.com (RollEmUpJohnson at Yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4109. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wynn Corum (Law) and Marty Mann From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2007 12:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wynn's daughter is very approachable and communicative via email. Contact me offlist and I'll send along her email address. Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla. edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4110. . . . . . . . . . . . A.A. International in San Diego From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2007 12:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The original thread was the division of AA in Mexico. This somehow got "kitchen-sinked" with division in Finland plus the German copyright case plus "cash incentives." These are separate issues. I have no experience with all the formers, just the latter. It is my understanding that the San Diego cash incentive was part of the package offered by their Convention and Visitors Bureau to AA to hold its International Convention in their city. The GSB did not solicit this. At the 1997 General Service Conference Larry N., Trustee- at-Large for the USA and a San Diego native, was asked if his area solicited this from the CVB. He saidthey did not. Some Conference members there thought that it is possible that some member(s) exhorted them to do so. It was not AA as such, however. The GSB policy was essentially that if the same package would be offered any other "like organization" then we may accept it. If we did not accept the perquisites offered by hotels and CVBs to hold our Conventions and Conferences --i.e., free ballroom space, comp rooms, etc.-- then they would be priced out of our ability to host them. These incentives are offered not as contributions to us, but rather as encouragement for us to hold them there and not across the street (or across the country). The Conference reviewed the GSB policy with hours of debate and eventually upheld it strongly. I seem to recall the vote was 110-12 in favor. And even at that some felt that some of the dissenters came from parts of the country that competed with San Diego for the Int'l Convention and lost. They felt they had "sour grapes." The issue was revived in '99 and we somewhat dismissed it, feeling it was sufficiently covered the previous year. We were wrong. And so the issue popped up again in 2000. It had yet longer debate ending ultimately in another decisive vote. I am told it was many-to-6. I am also told that the dissenters thanked the Conference for letting them have their say. I am writing this with the intent of adding my recollection of these historic events, not as an effort to again stir up this controversy. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4111. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2007 1:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mike, The only living expert on Hank I know is Merton M. who is a member of this group: mertonmm3@yahoo.com (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) --- Mike Brewer wrote: > Does anyone have any biographical information > on Henry Parkhurst and/or his family/genealogy? > > I am trying to work out his genealogy and all > his family connections, but the family was so > large, I am having difficulty working it out > without having more biographical data on him. > > Any info about him could be a big help. > > Birth/death dates, locations, parents' names, > etc. > > Thanks, Mike > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4112. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. Letter? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2007 8:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not a literal quote but very similar is a letter Bill wrote in 1959 and quoted on p. 35 of A.A. Way of Life/As Bill Sees It A.A. is no success story in the ordinary sense of the word. It is a story of suffering transmuted, under grace, into spiritual progress. I would note that a number of quotes in AAWL/ABSI are not true to the originals. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - - - - - At 21:42 2/14/2007 , rollemupjohnson wrote: >I'm looking for the source of a Bill W. quote: > >"I want to remind myself and anyone who would >listen that AA is not a personal success story. >It is instead the story of our colossal human >failures...now converted into the happiest kind >of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living >grace of God" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4113. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. Letter? From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2007 4:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Charles Knapp and Gary Rohde: the quote is similar to something said on a recording of Bill W. speaking in 1947. - - - From: "Charles Knapp" (cdknapp at pacbell.net) Hello I believe the quote you gave is from an LP recoded Bill made in April or May 1947. The original version of the quote is as follows: "Perhaps this is not the place to talk at length of my own recovery, of our A.A. program in detail, or of our astounding growth. This room is filled with fellow alcoholics who know and practice the A.A. way of life as well as I. The accomplishments of Alcoholics Anonymous are headlined in the press of the world. So I shall be content if I can remind myself, and any who would hear that Alcoholics Anonymous is not, after all, a personal success story. It is instead, the story of our colossal human failures now converted into the happiest kind of usefulness by that divine alchemy - the living grace of God." That was from a talk Bill gave April 9, 1947 in Los Angeles. When Bill got back to New York he revised his talk a little and cut a record that the Alcoholic Foundation sold. I found information in an early exchange bulletin that said the records would go on sale in June 1947. If you went to the International Convention in Toronto, this quote was part of the GSO Archives display. Encore Tapes sells a taped version of the recording, but so far have been unable to find a complete copy of his original talk. Hope that helps Charles for California - - - - - - - - From: (feelgoodcp at yahoo.com) I am not sure where it is written, but an old timer's son who had passed, brought me a set of orange red colored records with the rockhill label. I understand these were produced in the early days for new groups to play because they had no members with sobriety. On those records I heard the quote above. Hope that helps Gary Rohde Ft Myers Florida - - - - - - - - Original message #4108 from: (rollemupjohnson at yahoo.com) Asked for the source of this Bill W. quote: "I want to remind myself and anyone who would listen that AA is not a personal success story. It is instead the story of our colossal human failures...now converted into the happiest kind of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living grace of God" Thanks, JKell13@BellSouth.net (JKell13 at BellSouth.net) or RollEmUpJohnson@Yahoo.com (RollEmUpJohnson at Yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4114. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2007 10:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just a note to correct a few of the facts here, Arthur. I know how concerned you are with accuracy. There was concern about the exorbitant cost of the German Big Book, the equivalent of about $45 USD. All of the books that "they" published, (the publishing venture was actually the work of an AA Group, not just the one man that was sued), were given away, not one was sold. They were paid for by contributions of Groups and individuals. Later in your mail, you talk about the price of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to transport Big Books across a border into a country that holds a license to publish from AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS Big Book is because they cannot legally import them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still exorbitant. G ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur Sheehan To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:28 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) Hi Lee History is supposed to propagate facts not beliefs. If you would care to review "the other side" of the German lawsuit story, please refer to AAHL messages 2860, 2873 and 2907. Message 2860 contains a General Service Board report to the 2004 General Service Conference. It details how from 1993 (and for over a decade) they tried to get the German AA member to stop violating German copyright law (he was actually distributing Big Books in several countries in several languages). Message 2873 responds to a criticism posted in AAHL that echoed the same litany of criticisms that have been directed at the GSB, AAWS and GSO. Message 2907 is a detailed analysis of the German Big Book translation versus the English counterpart. The most stunning discovery was how the German AA member, who is portrayed as some sort of martyr (no pun intended on his name) had no factual basis for his claims that the German Big Book translation removed reference to "God" and "spirituality" from text. His whole case rested on torturous semantic hair-splitting of the use of the German words "geistig" and "seelisch" in the translation instead of his preferred German word "spirtuelle." There is a point of interest regarding the past $30 Big Book price in Mexico (which today's Spanish language version costs $6 from AAWS). The $3.50 price of the 1939 first edition Big Book would be the equivalent of around $50 in 2006 dollars. It was a very expensive book. An English language hard cover 4th edition Big Book today costs $6 from AAWS. That's about 1/8 of what it cost 1i 1939 (disregarding collector's value of course). It would be nice to give the GSB, AAWS and GSO some credit where credit is due. Cheers Arthur (PS haven't posted here in a while - been very, very busy) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4115. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2007 10:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Gary I do try to be attentive to accuracy and thorough research. When I post something it will be on the basis of independent confirmation by written source references (at least one - preferably more than one). That's why the Trustees reports to the 2004 Conference were cited in my last posting. Consequently, I think your "corrections" could do with a bit of correcting in turn. The German member who was sued may have had accomplices and allies (such as the Big Book Study Group) but he was the central player in the whole sorry episode. He is described in the Trustees' reports as the operator of a mail order book business in Germany who published and distributed several Conference- approved books and pamphlets, first in Germany and subsequently, in other countries. In 1993, he communicated with the GSOs in Germany and Canada/US that he intended to publish his German translation of "Alcoholics Anonymous." It was not framed as a matter of cost - it was framed as a matter of his preference for words used in the translation (which later proved baseless). From 1993 on he was repeatedly advised that his actions would/did constitute violations of legal licensing agreements made by AAWS who licenses one exclusive licensee per country. From 1994-1996, the German member traveled to Mexico several times, where he met with a small, but vocal group of AA members who were challenging licenses to publish approved translations of AA literature granted to the General Service Board of AA in Mexico (Central Mexicana). In November 1996, he traveled to New York City and asked to meet with the General Manager of the GSO. The GM and a Staff member met with him (and two friends of his from Germany). His expressed concerns were reported as having to do with the translation, not the cost, of the Big Book. In 1997 he illegally distributed books to Sweden, Finland and Israel. The Trustees' report states that by October 1997 he expanded distribution of "free" Big Books to Russia. Catalogs describing his mail order book business, and offering "AA literature" for sale, began appearing in mail directed to local Russian AA groups. Perhaps the acceptance of so-called "7th Traditions contributions" still means that the books were given away free (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) but I'll take that with a bit of skepticism. In any event, I'm not aware of any financial report ever posted or revealed by the German member to determine if the venture was purely altruistic. In May 1999, the German Court of Common Pleas ruled in favor of AA. The following month the German member appealed the ruling and extended the court process for an additional four years. In October 2003, the Court of Appeals in Frankfurt decided in favor of AA and ruled that the German member cease producing/distri- buting Conference-approved literature in any language. The Court affirmed the validity of copyrights held in trust by AAWS and decreed that the member reimburse AA for legal expenses, including attorney fees. Early in 2004, AA offered him an opportunity to forgo reimbursement of legal costs and fees provided he not publish or distribute Conference-approved literature in any language or country, now or in the future, and accept all other stipulations in the Court's order. He did not respond and AA subsequently asked that the Court's final order be fulfilled. I believe it cost the member $27,000 (based on a Delegate's Conference report). Now about the price of a Big Book (El Libro Grande) in Mexico. I went to the main AA web site in Mexico to check the cost. Perhaps I'm interpreting things wrong, but it seems that AA Mexico sells the Spanish translation of the Big Book for substantially less than what it costs in the US. So I don't understand what evidence produces the assertion that "The price from the Mexican GSO is still Exorbitant" The AA Mexico web site quotes a price of $33mn and $17mn for a hard cover and abridged version respectively ("mn" = New Mexico Peso - also "mxn"). I then went to a currency conversion web site and calculated $33 and $17mn as $3.00 and $1.55 in US dollars. Gary, I've tried to carefully lay out the verifiable sources of all the information posted. I'd be curious to know what your sources are. I certainly will accept "corrections" in good faith - provided of course that they are correct facts and not just anecdotal contradictions. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: Gary Becktell Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:03 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) Just a note to correct a few of the facts here, Arthur. I know how concerned you are with accuracy. There was concern about the exorbitant cost of the German Big Book, the equivalent of about $45 USD. All of the books that "they" published, (the publishing venture was actually the work of an AA Group, not just the one man that was sued), were given away, not one was sold. They were paid for by contributions of Groups and individuals. Later in your mail, you talk about the price of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to transport Big Books across a border into a country that holds a license to publish from AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS Big Book is because they cannot legally import them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still exorbitant. G IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4116. . . . . . . . . . . . Finding quotes in AA From: Clyde G. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2007 4:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the moderator: When you're trying to find a particular quote in the Big Book, there are two concordances to it where you can look up one of the words in the quotation. Neither concordance is perfect, but if you use both of them, you will probably have found all of the instances of that particular word in the Big Book: http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/ http://www.royy.com/concord.html A searchable text of the first part of the Big Book is also available online: http://anonpress.org/bb/ You can look up phrases on this site, in addition to individual words. The phrase asked for below ("jails, institutions and death") is not found in the first part of the Big Book, according to this reference source. Or at least it couldn't find it. Looking up "jail" however gives us p. 107, which is probably the original source of the idea in that phrase. Looking up "institution" gives us two more places where that part of the phrase is discussed: pp. 114, 110 Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) - - - - - - - - A friend in the program asked me where in the BB was the statement, "jails, institutions and death" found that I refered to. I had thought I had read it in the BB but dang if I can find it. So I decided to ask the group to either post it or send it to my address: cloydg449@sbcglobal.net (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4117. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in German From: do_der_weg . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2007 5:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it costs currently 15 Euros which would be about 20$ US. Greetings, Petra IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4118. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in the UK From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2007 1:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the UK they cost £8.20 GBR, which is approx $16 in US dollars. Dave - - - - Hi, Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it costs currently 15 Euros which would be about 20$ US. Greetings, Petra IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4119. . . . . . . . . . . . In the AA Big Book: "jails, institutions, or death" From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2007 12:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Possible source for the phrase ‘jails, institutions, or death’ could be: “and unless locked up may die or go permanently insane.” pg 24 “The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it to the gates of insanity or death.” pg 30 “innumerable trips to police courts, sanitariums, hospitals, jails and asylums.” pg 97 The most likely I would think is: “Most of us have entered the final stage with its commitment to health resorts, sanitariums, hospitals, and jails. Sometimes there were screaming delirium and insanity. Death was often near.” pg 107 God bless Dave - - - - - - - - A friend in the program asked me where in the BB was the statement, "jails, institutions and death" found that I refered to. I had thought I had read it in the BB but dang if I can find it. So I decided to ask the group to either post it or send it to my address: cloydg449@sbcglobal.net (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4120. . . . . . . . . . . . Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2007 8:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jon M. + Floyd J. - - - - Jon Markle (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) I believe the phrase "jails, institutions and death" comes from NA. For example, one quote, "If you are an addict, you must first admit that you have a problem with drugs before any progress can be made toward recovery. These questions, when honestly approached, may help to show you how using drugs has made your life unmanageable. Addiction is a disease which, without recovery, ends in jails, institutions, and death." From the pamphlet, "Am I an Addict?" Revised. This is NA Fellowship-approved literature. Copyright © 1983, 1988 by Narcotics Anonymous World Services, Inc. All rights reserved. I believe it's in the Basic Text of NA, however I don't have my copy handy to look it up to be sure. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 - - - - From: Azor521@aol.com (Azor521 at aol.com) That statement is made in the Narcotics Anonymous Book, pg. 3, 5th edition. Also in NA literature as it is in the statement, "What is an Addict." Hope that helps. Floyd J...... Southern California - - - - On Feb 21, 2007, at 4:15 PM, Clyde G. wrote: > A friend in the program asked me where in the > BB was the statement, "jails, institutions > and death" found that I refered to. I had > thought I had read it in the BB but dang if > I can find it. So I decided to ask the group > to either post it or send it to my address: > > cloydg449@sbcglobal.net > (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) > > Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4121. . . . . . . . . . . . Finding quotes in Big Book and 12 and 12 From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2007 11:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From tomper99 + Tommy H. (Baton Rouge) - - - - From: "tomper87" (tomper99 at yahoo.com) Another very good concordance for BB and 12x12: http://www.164andmore.com/index.php Also available in paperback which I have found to be very useful when away from the computer. - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) I have yet to find a concordance for A.A. literature that I like unequivocally. The ones I like best and get the results from most readily include the sentence or part of the sentence in which the word is used. I find this a whole lot more convenient than a list of words and the pages on which they are found. I own two concordances that list sentences or partial sentences, the Purple Salamander Press volume that came out in the '90s and one for which I got a heads up recently "164 and More" which includes the Big Book and the 12x12. There may be other concordances that include sentences but I am unaware of them. [This has everything to do with me. I don't pretend to know all about A.A. Concordances.] I suspect part of Clyde's problem is the quote he is searching for may be in a story and stories for the most part aren't included in concordances. My PDA has the Big Book on it, I believe I bought it from Anonymous Press, and it has several very nice features which come in handy as I can unobtrusively use the PDA during a meeting. For me a disadvantage of electronic concordances is that one must put the search info in exactly including punctuation. The PDA program is nice as it lists page and paragraph numbers. I have not yet reached the point where I am able to pull open my Big Book and go directly to the word or phrase I'm looking for so concordances serve a useful function for me. Information on "164 and More" is in message #4055 in the list archives online. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4122. . . . . . . . . . . . Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville From: kattacruzin . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 4:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I'm doing some research on Marty Mann and other women of her time. I've read the Brown and Brown autobiography of her. The Brown and Brown book talks about Marty Mann having a relapse during some time between 1959-64. Her partner Priscilla's whereabouts during this time are unknown. An unnamed woman from Bronxville found Mann alone and relapsed in her NYC apartment. According to Brown and Brown, this apparently whisked Mann away to get help from the relapse. I'm left wondering if anyone knows who the unnamed woman from Bronxville is? And did she stay in touch with Mann after she helped her get back on the right track? Also, does anyone know what might have precipitated Mann's slip? Perhaps her cancer battles? But also, it seems that perhaps she and Priscilla were having a hard time in their relationship at that point--was that in any way related to the slip (or vice-versa)? Many thanks for any insights you might have. Kate IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4123. . . . . . . . . . . . 12 and 12 search engine From: smithdewan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2007 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there a search for a word or phrase engine that covers the 12and12 ? - - - - From the moderator: Another very good concordance for the Big Book and also for the TWELVE STEPS and TWELVE TRADITIONS: http://www.164andmore.com/index.php - - - - See Message #4121 from: "tomper87" (tomper99 at yahoo.com) "tomper87" said: "Also available in paperback which I have found to be very useful when away from the computer." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4124. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wynn Corum (Law) and Marty Mann From: kattacruzin . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 4:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wynn Corum was an author of the big book story "Freedom from Bondage." I believe her sobriety date was late 1940's. She lived in L.A. and was the step-mother of California writer Carolyn See. - - - - From the moderator: See http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm "Freedom From Bondage" 2nd edition #553, 3rd edition #544, 4th edition #544 Wynn Corum Laws (California) Look for the story and then click on the author's name to read the little biography of Wynn which Nancy Olson wrote. Also see Message #4099: Wynn Corum Law's stepdaughter Carolyn See wrote a book Dreaming: Hard Luck and Good Times in America, which more or less tells Wynn's story. I read it a few years ago and don't remember it mentioning Marty Mann or their knowing each other personally. Fiona - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Sally Brown" rev.sally@worldnet.att.net (rev.sally at worldnet.att.net) wrote: > > Dave and I didn't come across Wynn Corum's name > when we were researching the Marty Mann bio, but > I would guess that both women did know each other. > > I would love to know about Wynn. > > City? Approximate sobriety date and age? > Anything of her story? And what is Ann's > particular interest? Etc? > > Thanks, and shalom - Sally > > Rev Sally Brown, coauthor with David R Brown: > "A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady > of Alcoholics Anonymous" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4125. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in various countries From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 5:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For the sake of accuracy It would be beneficial to hear from people from actual countries who buy big books in their country to let this group know exactly how much a big book costs there. We have been told by a group member that he did the research and utilized more than one source to get the actual price of books. Unfortunately, persons from the actual countries who shelled out money for the books report a different price than what was reported. If at all possible, the equivalent in US Dollars would be helpful as well as the local currency. I personally trust individual AA members' reporting of the price they pay rather than the official AAWS approved office in that country reporting on a price. There appears to be a discrepancy in actual vs reported prices. > In the UK they cost £8.20 GBR, which is approx > $16 in US dollars. > > Dave > > - - - - > > Hi, > > Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it > costs currently 15 Euros which would be about > 20$ US. > > Greetings, Petra > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4126. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 7:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In answer to Kate's questions about Marty Mann's late relapse, I wish Dave and I had the answers! The original information came from my first AA sponsor, who had gotten sober in Bronxville and lived there, very active in AA, for 10 more years. She was the one whom the unnamed woman called for advice about what to do with Marty. Unfortunately, so much time had passed, and as the "rescuer" had long since moved away, my sponsor could no longer recall her name. While Dave and I were still doing our research and making inquiries elsewhere, my sponsor happened to visit Bronxville, and asked the oldtimers still there if they remembered the name. They recalled the event, but again, too many years had intervened. All anyone vaguely remembered was that the young woman had moved to Florida, they thought, not long after. I've always hoped that that woman, or someone in Florida who knew her, might read our biography of Marty Mann, and contact us. At first I was a little disdainful that people wouldn't remember the name of the young woman, even though nearly 40 years had transpired. How could anyone forget! Now, with nearly 30 years of sobriety myself, I understand. I'm darned if I can recall the names of people from 10 years ago, who were in our local AA only a year, then moved far away with no further contact. Sometimes I remember the person, and sometimes parts of their stories. But names? As we wrote, we could only speculate on the possible contributing factors to Marty's relapse. If somebody actually knows any more of this part of the story, I hope he or she will contact us. Finally, our unexpected uncovering of Marty's relapse was certainly a shock to a number of persons, especially if they had known her well and had no idea about it. Some absolutely refused to believe it, others were totally surprised yet not surprised. We might not have included the account if we hadn't been able to get two strong additional, independent corroborations. And good luck, Kate, on your research! Maybe you'll be the one to solve the mystery of the "unnamed woman." Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown coauthor with David R. Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4127. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Price of a Big Book in various countries From: Mark Everett . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 9:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree with Mitchell's request for more information, and I would add that the reporter include the source. For instance, I just did some local searches here in the US and I found the following prices. This could go on and on, but, without the seller being identified, it is a bit difficult to compare pricing. The prices I found for our Big Book (new, not used) this morning on the web and via current published price lists and they are: A.A. (both GSO and my local Intergroup Office) Soft Cover $5.60 Hard Cover $6.00 Hazelden Soft Cover $10.00 Hard Cover $10.75 Amazon Soft Cover $10.17 Hard Cover $10.85 Border's Soft Cover $13.95 Barns and Noble Soft Cover $14.95 Hard Cover $12.76 I guess the source of my purchase matters, I have no comment as to the differences, I just want to point out that there are differences, and without noting my source, my information is less than complete. Mark IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4128. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Price of a Big Book in various countries From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 1:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ireland, India, Australia, Greece, Canada IRELAND From: "Fiona Dodd" (fionadodd at eircom.net) The cost of a Big Book in Ireland is (=6.23 which is roughly $8.20. Regards Fiona - - - - From: gerry donaghy (frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk) Although it is 6.20 euros for a big book in Ireland, some groups charge 8 euros for it. My opinion and the opinion of many others is that it should be free as GSO have lots of funds available, the money they get from groups. - - - - INDIA From: "Aloke Dutt" (alokedutt at hotmail.com) The price of soft cover English Big Book in India is Rupees 110.00 = 2.4 US Dollars - - - - AUSTRALIA From: "Ollie Olorenshaw" (ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au) A Big Book in Australia costs $17.60 which is just under $US 14.00. - - - - GREECE From: "Irene Sekros" (irene.sekros at gmail.com) Hello, irene here, an alcoholic from Athens, Greece. Here are the prices we ask for the BB: Euro 10.00 - Hard Cover, English version (US $13.25) Euro 9.00 - Soft Cover, English version (US $11.92) Euro 5.50 - Pocket Size, English version (US $7.28) Euro 10.00 - Soft Cover, Greek version (US $$13.25) Warm regards and g24h, irene - - - - CANADA: From: "silverg1" (silverg1 at telus.net) In Calgary, Alberta, Canada we pay C$11.00 (US$9.50) for hard cover 4th edition Big Book from Central Office. Gerry S. - - - - SOME OTHER NOTES From: "Dennis M." (bxdennis at verizon.net) It would also be important to know if the purchase was from a primary GSO source or some other outlet such as an Intergroup, Central Office or another Hazelden-type distributor. Here in the U.S. additional markups are often added to the GSO sales price by secondary distributors. Dennis M. - - - - From: Arkie Koehl (arkie at arkoehl.com) I believe the book came out in 1939 at $3.50. That equaled $50.69 by 2006.* In any case, that makes today's editions look rather reasonable, in any country and any currency. Arkie *I used this consumer price index calculator, FWIW IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4129. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in various countries From: Irene Sekros . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 2:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, irene here, an alcoholic from Athens, Greece. Here are the prices we ask for the BB: Euro 10.00 - Hard Cover, English version Euro 9.00 - Soft Cover, English version Euro 5.50 - Pocket Size, English version Euro 10.00 - Soft Cover, Greek version. Warm regards and g24h, irene **************************************************** On 2/26/07, Mitchell K. wrote: > > For the sake of accuracy It would be beneficial to > hear from people from actual countries who buy big > books in their country to let this group know exactly > how much a big book costs there... > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4130. . . . . . . . . . . . AA history in Great Britain From: desbrittuk . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 8:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've been knocking around AA in England since 1976. I've seen so many good people come and go and so many "characters" who have livened up our meetings over the years. I'm wondering if there is an archive similar to what you good folks in America have. Are there any oldtimers in England reading this who might know something of our history? Des B in Kilburn, London.... (First meeting in the Bull Ring in Birmingham, 1976 and then First London 1978, York Street clubhouse, Denver,1979-82 and back to London again.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4131. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 5:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't know where to begin, Arthur. Calling the members of the man's Home Group 'accomplices' seems a bit inflammatory. They are fellow members, joined in a 12th Step activity. The mail order business was not engaged in the Big Book give aways. You can refer to the findings from the German Court in dismissing the first complaint, the criminal charge. The 'small but vocal group' you refer to in Mexico was an entire service structure with over 2,000 groups, with Districts, Areas, Delegates and a Conference. The permission (in Article Two) is given for the Conference (not AAWS) to grant the right to publish, and only where a General Service Structure exists. Central Mexicana was not a service structure but just a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries where a General Service Structure exists, the United States/Canada Conference will delegate sole right to publish our Conference-approved Literature to the General Service Board of that structure." Your 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' comment concerning profit is definitely not researched. Before the civil case there was a criminal case where the German Court found that there was indeed no profiting going on. http://gsowatch.aamo.info/ger/g8.gif In fact, the books have a disclaimer on them that states that they are free and should not be bought or sold. Further, the financial report you are not aware of was given to the German court, which is part of the reason they dismissed the criminal charges. There is no evidence what-so-ever that there was anything but an altruistic motive in this case. As is a tradition in this country, guilt must be proved, not innocence. You mentioned that the German member did not respond to the offer to forego reimbursement, etc. What you didn't mention was that there were many stipulations for that to take effect, not just the one you mentioned. One of the other stipulations was to reveal the names of all members of the AABBSG (his Home Group), breaking the anonymity of all at a public level. Of course he refused, and started paying. I would like to remind everyone that all the Big Books that were printed in Germany and Mexico were from the First or Second Editions, which are both in the Public Domain. I suspect that is enough for now. I would like to suggest that anyone even slightly concerned about these issues read Concept XII, Warranty 5. In my Service Manual, it suggests that we not sue anyone, at any time, for any reason. Further, it says, "Some deviators have suffered rather severe personal criticism from individual AA members, and this is to be deplored." This was written by Bill W. Every piece of evidence points that this man and his group were carrying the AA message as best they could. While one may disagree with their methods, the hateful attacks seem inappropriate. Please reread Warranty 5. G ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur Sheehan Subject: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) Hi Gary I do try to be attentive to accuracy and thorough research. When I post something it will be on the basis of independent confirmation by written source references (at least one - preferably more than one). That's why the Trustees reports to the 2004 Conference were cited in my last posting. Consequently, I think your "corrections" could do with a bit of correcting in turn. The German member who was sued may have had accomplices and allies (such as the Big Book Study Group) but he was the central player in the whole sorry episode. He is described in the Trustees' reports as the operator of a mail order book business in Germany who published and distributed several Conference- approved books and pamphlets, first in Germany and subsequently, in other countries. In 1993, he communicated with the GSOs in Germany and Canada/US that he intended to publish his German translation of "Alcoholics Anonymous." It was not framed as a matter of cost - it was framed as a matter of his preference for words used in the translation (which later proved baseless). From 1993 on he was repeatedly advised that his actions would/did constitute violations of legal licensing agreements made by AAWS who licenses one exclusive licensee per country. From 1994-1996, the German member traveled to Mexico several times, where he met with a small, but vocal group of AA members who were challenging licenses to publish approved translations of AA literature granted to the General Service Board of AA in Mexico (Central Mexicana). In November 1996, he traveled to New York City and asked to meet with the General Manager of the GSO. The GM and a Staff member met with him (and two friends of his from Germany). His expressed concerns were reported as having to do with the translation, not the cost, of the Big Book. In 1997 he illegally distributed books to Sweden, Finland and Israel. The Trustees' report states that by October 1997 he expanded distribution of "free" Big Books to Russia. Catalogs describing his mail order book business, and offering "AA literature" for sale, began appearing in mail directed to local Russian AA groups. Perhaps the acceptance of so-called "7th Traditions contributions" still means that the books were given away free (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) but I'll take that with a bit of skepticism. In any event, I'm not aware of any financial report ever posted or revealed by the German member to determine if the venture was purely altruistic. In May 1999, the German Court of Common Pleas ruled in favor of AA. The following month the German member appealed the ruling and extended the court process for an additional four years. In October 2003, the Court of Appeals in Frankfurt decided in favor of AA and ruled that the German member cease producing/distri- buting Conference-approved literature in any language. The Court affirmed the validity of copyrights held in trust by AAWS and decreed that the member reimburse AA for legal expenses, including attorney fees. Early in 2004, AA offered him an opportunity to forgo reimbursement of legal costs and fees provided he not publish or distribute Conference-approved literature in any language or country, now or in the future, and accept all other stipulations in the Court's order. He did not respond and AA subsequently asked that the Court's final order be fulfilled. I believe it cost the member $27,000 (based on a Delegate's Conference report). Now about the price of a Big Book (El Libro Grande) in Mexico. I went to the main AA web site in Mexico to check the cost. Perhaps I'm interpreting things wrong, but it seems that AA Mexico sells the Spanish translation of the Big Book for substantially less than what it costs in the US. So I don't understand what evidence produces the assertion that "The price from the Mexican GSO is still Exorbitant" The AA Mexico web site quotes a price of $33mn and $17mn for a hard cover and abridged version respectively ("mn" = New Mexico Peso - also "mxn"). I then went to a currency conversion web site and calculated $33 and $17mn as $3.00 and $1.55 in US dollars. Gary, I've tried to carefully lay out the verifiable sources of all the information posted. I'd be curious to know what your sources are. I certainly will accept "corrections" in good faith - provided of course that they are correct facts and not just anecdotal contradictions. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: Gary Becktell Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:03 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) Just a note to correct a few of the facts here, Arthur. I know how concerned you are with accuracy. There was concern about the exorbitant cost of the German Big Book, the equivalent of about $45 USD. All of the books that "they" published, (the publishing venture was actually the work of an AA Group, not just the one man that was sued), were given away, not one was sold. They were paid for by contributions of Groups and individuals. Later in your mail, you talk about the price of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to transport Big Books across a border into a country that holds a license to publish from AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS Big Book is because they cannot legally import them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still exorbitant. G IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4132. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2007 7:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I thought back then that the outrage was not over this member's or Group's actions, but the public lawsuit instigated by AA, which is expressly verboten by our Traditions, Concepts, and Co-Founder. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4133. . . . . . . . . . . . Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, or death" From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 2:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Jails, institutions or death" is part of the preamble in Narcotics Anonymous meetings. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4134. . . . . . . . . . . . Connor F. From: gerry d . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2007 7:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was looking for a photo of Connor F. and Bill W.,which I think was taken around the time Connor F. came to Ireland on a holiday in 1946, he was persuaded by his wife to start an AA group in Ireland, when he went to St. Pat's Hospital to find alcoholics he was told there were no alkies in that part of Ireland lol... But he suceeded in gettin it going and today we have hundreds of groups here. ....btw the 50th All Ireland Convention is coming up in April, for full details visit our website >>>>http://www.tallaghtbigbook.com<<<< If anyone has a pic or any pics from around that time I would be very gratefull for some >>>my em is>>>>frankaaaa2006@yahoo.co.uk (frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4135. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Finding quotes in Big Book From: ~ the >i . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 8:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII JFYI, there are a host of resources to search the big book on-line. None of which I have encountered that are "official" ... nevertheless, viable adjuncts to finding quotes when needed. (The concordance for the 12x12 mentioned earlier, is the only one I've seen.) For the "big book" ... Here is one: http://www.whytehouse.com/big_book_search/ __________________________________ an additional link of study: http://www.sober.org/ an audio version: http://www.aarootsrevival.com/Big-Book-Study.htm and a format for the fourth that is very organized and true to the book (a great print out!): http://www.recovery.org/aa/PDF/step4.pdf All these links I highly recommend to serious study. Janet P. emeritus archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4136. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in Denmark From: Henrik Rue . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/27/2007 4:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, The price in Denmark is 190 Danish Kroner ~ $33 for a hardcover copy in Danish and 120 Danish kroner ~ $21 in English And 165 Danish kroner ~ $28 for a soft cover copy in Danish and 100 Danish kroner ~ $17 in English In love and service Henrik Rue E-mail : henrik.rue@edb.dk (henrik.rue at edb.dk) Homepage: http://www.12stepping.dk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4137. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2007 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dozens of times I've heard people at AA meetings say, "It's in the Big Book" , and then go on to quote from the NA Basic Text. "More will be revealed" is commonly heard, and the ubiquitious, "people, places and things." The latter is a segment of the "Second Interesting Proposal", found after the NA Steps. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4138. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant March Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2007 8:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII March 1936 - AA had 10 members staying sober. At end of 1936 A.A. had 15 members. March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Works Publishing Inc established to support writing and printing of the book. March 1940 - Mort J. came to LA from Denver; started custom of reading Chapter 5 Big Book at Cecil group. March 1941 - Second printing of Big Book. March 1941 - 1st Prison AA Group formed at San Quentin. March 1946 - The March of Time film is produced by NY AA office. March 1949 - Dr. Bob considers idea of AA conference premature. March 1951 - American Weekly publishes memorial article for Dr. Bob. March 1, 1939 - Readers Digest fails to write article on AA. March 1, 1941 - Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article published and membership jumped from 2,000 to 8,000 by years end. March 3 1947 - Nell Wing started work at Alcoholic Foundation 415 Lexington Avenue. March 4, 1891 - Lois W is born. March 5, 1945 - Time Magazine reports Detroit radio broadcasts of AA members. March 7, 1940 -- Bill and Lois visited the Philadelphia AA group. March 7, 1941 -- Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted to get well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury St., at 8 PM Wednesdays. March 9, 1941 - Wichita Beacon reports AA member from NY who wants to form a group in Wichita. March 10, 1944 - New York Intergroup was established. March 11, 1949 - The Calix Society, an association of Roman Catholic alcoholics who are maintaining their sobriety through participation in Alcoholics Anonymous, was formed in Minneapolis by five Catholic AA members. March 14, - South Orange, NJ, AA group held an anniversary dinner with Bill W as guest speaker March 15, 1941 - 1st AA group formed in New Haven, Connecticut. Not reported in paper until Oct 1, 1941. March 16, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation and Works Publishing move from Newark to 30 Vesey St in lower Manhattan. First headquarters of our own. March 21, 1881 - Anne R, Dr Bobs wife, is born. March 21 1966 - Ebby dies. March 22, 1951 - Dr William Duncan Silkworth dies at Towns Hospital. March 22, 1984 - Clarence S, "Home Brewmeister", dies. March 23, 1936 - Bill and Lois visit Fitz M, "Our Southern Friend", in Maryland. March 25, 1898 -- Jim B ("The Vicious Cycle") was born. March 29, 1943 -- The Charleston Mail, WV, reported on Bill W's talk at St. John's Parish House. March 31, 1947 - 1st AA group formed in London, England. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4139. . . . . . . . . . . . Percentage women in AA worldwide? From: Terry Smith . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 1:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Everyone My name is Terry and I'm an Alcoholic. I have just taken on the commitment of History Secretary at The Barking Big Book Study -- The Way Out. What is the percentage of women today within AA worldwide? I would be grateful for any information or guidance. Many thanks and God bless regards Terry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4140. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of a Big Book in Finland From: Paul S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2007 12:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there (over there) Today I was visting our Local Service Office (perhaps you could call it intergroup). Prices: Big Book in Finnish language 10 euros (13.35 USD, I presume) Pocket version (Finnish) 8 euros Big Book in English language 14 euros If you post-order them you have to pay the cost. (My homegroup buys them and usually gives them for free to newcomers after their first or second meeting a little depending on the circumstances.) All the best Paul S. aka soberfinn Helsinki, Finland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4141. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA history in Great Britain From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2007 5:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Share magazine - the British counterpart of Grapevine - has produced a book called Share and Share Alike to mark the 60th anniversary of AA's foundation in Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) on 31 March 1947. It contains stories from each of the past six decades of Share and its predecessor the AA Newsletter. The book also includes information about the British Fellowship's history. The price is £4.75 sterling (inc p+p), checks etc. payable to 'General Service Office'. Send orders to: Share and Share Alike, PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green, York YO1 7NJ UK. Laurie A., Editor, Share IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4142. . . . . . . . . . . . The Division of AA in FINLAND From: Soberholic . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2007 12:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gary Becktell wrote: "The permission (in Article Two) is given for the Conference (not AAWS) to grant the right to publish, and only where a General Service Structure exists. Central Mexicana was not a service structure but just a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries where a General Service Structure exists, the United States/Canada Conference will delegate sole right to publish our Conference-approved Literature to the General Service Board of that structure." This is not the case in Finland. Our General Service Structure was founded in 1998 - a year after the coup d'état performed by an organized group of loud and violent A.A. members in the annual meeting of Finnish A.A. in February 1997. Some 15-20 % of the groups decided not to accept all that happened and especially the false report of the event that was given to members. The rest of the groups swallowed the report reluctantly but time has done its work and the report has become "the official truth" The older structure that resembles more a labor union than A.A. structure has still the rights to publish literature. http://www2.stakes.fi/nat/pdf/04/NAT304.pdf [1] : A. Leppo: Grassroot democracy in an organized organization. Direct and representative democracy in the Finnish AA-movement AIM Alcoholics Anonymous’s non-hierarchical and nonbureaucratic organisation structure and its ability to maintain its unity is unique. AA has a “formal” level of decision-making – the AA service structure. The main activity for most members, however, is the grass-root activity in individual AA groups. There are certain tensions between these two. This case study analyses a conflict around the movement’s decision making structure in Finland in the late 1990’s. The disagreements led eventually to the founding of a new AA service structure which led in fact to 2 parallel service structures. The study also looks at the consequences the conflict had on the Finnish AA movement and its vitality. DATA The data is qualitative and consists primarily of taped interviews with 26 AA members. In addition, textual material written by AA members was analysed. RESULTS The analysis of the interviewees’ accounts revealed that the conflict was rooted in the movement’s concrete decision-making practices as well as collective identities entwined with the members’ social position. The grass- root activity of AA groups remained active despite the disputes on the movement’s organisational level and a majority of the members remained uninterested in the dispute. The conflict did, however, affect the movement’s ability to hold on to old members and attract new ones. Furthermore, it caused hurtful feelings to many and questioned the members’ feeling of belonging together. CONCLUSION It is suggested that the fact that the conflict resulted in the founding of a new AA service structure – instead of for example further specialisation on the group level – reflects the Finnish society and its organisational traditions. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4143. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Dunlea articles (2) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A series of articles by Father Thomas V. Dunlea in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946, Number 2. PLEA FOR IRISH BRANCH OF SOCIETY TO AID ALCOHOLICS Dublin Evening Mail Saturday, October 4, 1946 The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous, to which he belonged, would very much like to see a branch opened up in this country, said the Rev. Thomas V. Dunlea, parish priest of Sutherland, near Sydney, Australia, in an interview with an Evening Mail representative in which he described the work being done in his parish to help alcoholics. A native of Tipperary, Father Dunlea is founder and director of Australia's Boys Town and is touring America, Canada and Ireland to learn all he can of the social work being done in those countries. Though our representative tried to draw Father Dunlea out he refused to criticise any aspect of Irish social work, holding that it is not for him to criticise or hurt anyone's feelings. HOW THE SOCIETY BEGAN The Society was started in America in 1934 by two addicts who formed a club for their fellow suffers. For the first year there were three members and in the second year they had five. In the succeeding years they recruited their members successfully that today there are more than 50,000 addicts formed into loosely knit societies or clubs in America, New Zealand, Australia and England. In October, 1944, when Boy's Town was just three years old, Father Dunlea found time to found a branch of the Society in Sydney with Dr. Minogue, a famous Australian psychiatrist, and Mr. A. McKinnon a Scottish officer of a Sydney mental home. A remarkable point about the two Homes which Sydney now posses is the fact that people who work among addicts and seek to cure them of their complaint are fellow suffers who have benefited from the Homes. In the words of Father Dunlea "The Society believes that only an alcoholic can cure an alcoholic, as it is only a fellow suffer who can open a line of transmission to the heart of the patient." The different clubs or societies as they are usually called come together to discuss each other's problems. The only qualification for membership is a sincere desire on the part of the alcoholic to abstain from drinking. These clubs are purely convalescent homes and not institutions where members can stay indefinitely. Once they show signs of recovery and the drinking has been arrested they are sent back to their old jobs. If they should fall back into their old ways again one of the workers goes out and bring them back -- or if they are very bad to send them to hospital. There are no hard and fast rules in the clubs and no president or committee to run things. POLITICS TABOO The members live together, doing more or less as they please, while the workers, who can speak from experience, gradually talk them out of the highly strained and nervous condition to which they become prone. No temperance advocates are admitted to the clubs nor what are known as controlled drinkers. Ministers of religion, doctors and social workers can all help, but like all other non-alcoholics, they must keep severely to their own duties and never mention the subject of drink. Any subject which might upset the convalescent peace of mind, such as that of politics, is carefully kept out of the conversation. WOMEN VICTIMS The sufferers are taken from mental homes, jails, and street corners and usually kept in the clubs for two or three weeks. The first man with whom Father Dunlea came in contact had been in a mental home eight times. He said that alcohol addicts were usually clever people in professional occupations which called for a creative mind. Quite a number of women were included among them. The war had been a great factor in increasing the number of alcoholics in the world, while a shortage of liquor had worsened the condition of those who had already been sufferers. NATIONAL PROBLEM Father Dunlea said that in the history of the world there was probably never such a great a amount of alcoholism as existed today. It presented a national problem, and he considered the movement that had started in Australia as proverbially timely. In America a clinic to deal with the subject had been established by Yale University, and a wealthy personage had endowed a campaign to educate the public in the disease. Alcoholism, he said, was one of the four main health problems facing the world today, taking its place with T.B., cancer, and V.D. and it was one that the average person knew practically nothing. DRY HORRORS There were two characteristics to be found in nearly all alcoholics. They were hyper- sensitivity and ego-centricity. When an inebriate first tried to give up the use of intoxicants he passed through what were known as "dry horrors". His mind became increasingly a prey to anxious thoughts and even delusions and obsessions. Those could be relieved altogether by two or three strong doses of alcohol. But the inebriate could not stop once he had felt the effect of these doses and became a helpless slave, going on and on until he found himself under restraint. A person usually took a drink to that extent to get away from some wrong which was troubling him. VERY SENSITIVE They became very sensitive and had to be treated very carefully. To them a non-alcoholic was like a back seat driver who did nothing but state the obvious to the driver. They were sick people and had to be treated as such. So the Society concentrated on that and made no criticism of the amount of drink taken by people and made no effort to close public houses. All the workers kept their names secret from the public, hence their title-Alcoholics Anonymous. A great spirit of friendship was engendered among all the members and workers and the Society could claim to be one of the few on earth, if not the only one, in which God could be discussed by Jews, Protestants and Catholics in a manner which hurt no one's feelings. END OF TRANSCRIPT OF Article No 2. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4144. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Dunlea articles (1) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 8:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A series of articles by Father Thomas V. Dunlea in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946. - - - - Background: AA goes international, from Australia to Ireland. Australia October 1944 -- first non-American AA branch started in Sydney, Australia by Father Thomas V. Dunlea and Rex (see AAHL Message 3746). Ireland November 1946 -- then Ireland via Father Tom from down under and Conor F. Conor F. was "persuaded" by his wife after reading articles in the Dublin Evening Mail (October 1946) written by Father Thomas V. Dunlea, a Roman Catholic priest from Australia who was visiting Ireland (where he had originally been born, in Tipperary). Notes by John R. (1) As per all possibilities with the outside media reporting about A.A. there could be some journalistic licence taken in the articles about and following on from Fr. Tom D., in accuracies in numbers, terminology used, etc. It is more to do with history time lines than critique of the wording and interpretations of the 1940's in Ireland and it was well before the advent of the Traditions. However one can see the simplicity of the "Preamble." (2) Errors could occur in my re-print, in that the copies of the newspapers I have a very blurred. - - - - Fr. Tom Dunlea article (1) Dublin Evening Mail, Friday, October 4, 1946 A brief extract only from this first article. AN AUSTRALIAN BOYS' TOWN Visiting Clergyman Impressed By Work Of Mount St. Club. Rev. Thomas V. Dunlea, Tipperary-born Parish Priest of Sutherland near Sydney, Australia. He is the founder and director of Australian Boys' Town, the only equivalent in the world to Father Flanagan's institution in America. He is also a co-founder of a branch of the Alcoholics Anonymous Society in Sydney, which was formed to help suffers from alcoholism to overcome this weakness and return to work. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4145. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Dunlea articles (3) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A series of articles by Father Thomas V. Dunlea in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946, article number 3. TO HELP SUFFERERS FROM ALCOHOLISM Dublin Evening Mail Friday, November 1, 1946 An effort is to be made in Dublin to help the sufferers from alcoholism to overcome the obsession which compels them to drink against their will. The method to be used is known as Alcoholics Anonymous, about which little was known in this country until the recent visit here by of Father Dunlea, an Associate member of the organisation in Sydney, Australia who outlined the scheme to the Evening Post on Oct, 5th. Since then a member of the Society in Philadelphia, U.S.A. has arrived on a visit and yesterday told an Evening Mail reporter of the great success which it has achieved in America and of what it has meant to him personally. Born in Roscommon, he emigrated to America 17 years ago. [This was Conor Flynn. See AAHistory Lovers Message 3623, where Nancy Olson tells the whole story.] ON DRINKING BOUTS For the first seven years of his life in America he drank practically no alcohol, but after two years of social drinking he suddenly went on a two day drinking bout. Immediately after this he took a pledge for one year. After one year of sobriety he felt that he could safely drink normally again only to find that after a few short weeks of social drinking he was out on a four-day drinking bout. The next two years of his life were spent in periodic drinking bouts during which time the periods of sobriety gradually became shorter and less frequent. During this time h visited many sanatoria and hospitals and had the attention of the best doctors and psychiatrists, only to find that very little could be done to control his drinking. All this time he had been a successful business man with a nice home and was happily married. He could find no reason for his abnormal drinking. LOST THE DESIRE While in one of the hospitals he was contacted by a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. He had no reason to believe the Society could keep him sober, but as he has tried everything else without success and had an had an honesty desire for sobriety he decided to give it a trial. After joining the organisation he was amazed to find that it was composed of happy members who had been many years sober and had rid themselves of their alcoholic obsession. After 3 1/2 years in A.A. he found he no longer had any desire to drink an now states that if he had the choice between drinking normally again and his present existence he would prefer sobriety and the association of A.A. All that is necessary to become a member is a sincere desire to stop drinking. No charge is made for joining the Society, and there are no paid workers, everything being done by the members, who look upon it as an avocation. The Society does not cater for controlled drinkers, its only aim being to help those who have an obsession for drink. Full information will be given freely to those who apply through the box number at the end of this article. It is the hope of this gentleman that by December nucleus of workers will have been formed here to carry on the good work. True to the name of the Society he desires to remain anonymous. Will those interested write for free information to Box D554. END OF TRANSCRIPT OF Article No. 3 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4146. . . . . . . . . . . . Dublin Evening Mail articles (4) From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Article number 4: report on the actual start of A.A. in Ireland, follow-up on the Father Thomas V. Dunlea articles. ALCOHOLICS FORM NEW BODY Dublin Evening Mail Saturday, November 23, 1946 The Alcoholics Anonymous Association, formed to help sufferers from the dreaded disease of alcoholism, has recently established a small group in Dublin. Several private meetings have already been held as a result of which those who attended have derived considerable benefit and have become convinced that they have not been able to find any other way. The first public meeting of the Association will be held on Monday at 7:45 p.m., in the Country Shop, St. Stephen's Green, Dublin. Three of the speakers will be alcoholics and members of the Dublin group. DOCTOR TO SPEAK In addition, a doctor who is one of Dublin's leading psychiatrists and who has made a deep study of alcoholism, will give the meeting the benefit of his professional knowledge on this important subject. True to the name of the Society all will remain anonymous. It is hoped that all who have a sincere desire to stop drinking and to lead a normal, useful life will take this opportunity of learning what the Association offers as a constructive policy of recovery. It is also hoped that any who are interested directly attend with the object of hearing what the Association has done and is daily doing for alcoholics. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4147. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Percentage women in AA worldwide? From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2007 4:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The percentage of women in A.A. in the United States and Canada according to the Triennial Surveys of Members was: 1968 22% 1971 25% 1974 25% 1977 33% 1980 33% 1983 33% 1986 34% 1989 35% 2001 33% 2004 35% Some years the pamphlet gave it as a percentage. Other years it was stated as "one in four" or "one in three." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4148. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Percentage women in AA worldwide? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2007 9:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Terry Check the link http://aa.org/en_media_resources.cfm?PageID=75 Or go to AA.org, click on Media Resources then click on AA Membership Survey then click on the image to read a PDF file of the 2004 membership survey. The 2004 Membership Survey cites an estimate of %36 for women in the US/Canada. I don't know how well that percentage projects worldwide. The next survey is due to be conducted this year. Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4149. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2007 9:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Didn't the split of A.A. in Mexico have something to do with social class? Maybe I missed it but I don't recall seeing that mentioned in this topic. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4150. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2007 11:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To Gary B and Lee N - this is a very long reply The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are historic AA milestones whether or not they are viewed as infamous. Their history should be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both supporters and critics. Many AA members have staked out a position, some with reasoned argument and others with vitriol. The Traditions and Concepts are often cited as inviolable and near scriptural commandments that predetermine what the conduct of those who brought the lawsuit should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely directed at the German member who was found guilty of breaking the law. He is typically portrayed as a noble victim absolved of his legal infractions because he wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who stopped him from breaking the law are typically portrayed as villains having "hateful intentions." While it may be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of codified principles exist that take precedence over the Steps, Traditions and Concepts. They consist of state and national laws and treaties having the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step activities" provide a refuge of extralegal privilege to evade the law and the resulting consequences of its infraction. When AA members are involved in 12th Step calls, it does not grant them extralegal privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore red lights on the way to carry AA's message. Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with a Big Book translation, it does not endow them with extralegal privilege to print their own preferred version in violation of copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th Step activity." Events leading up to the German lawsuit were premised on claims that the translation of the German Big Book lacked words denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted words denoting "psychological" and "intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The website that supported the German member carried the following statements: ---------- "A scientific research revaled [sic] differences between BBSG and German GSO versions of the big book. BBSG translated the multilith manuscript, because we were sure there were no restrictions by any copyright protection on it. German GSO sold a translation of 1983 based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this had many mistakes. For example: The 11 chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108 times in the multilith manuscript and 106 times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of 1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it was mostly replaced by "seelisch -- psychological" and/or by "geistig -- intellectual". This, among other faults, diluted the spiritual foundations of our recovery program and resulted in an extremely high relapse rate of more than 95% among German AA members. We felt obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation of [sic] has the correct German word "spirituell". There is more background information available at [.]" ---------- The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and unsubstantiated (but often repeated these days in AA as part of various agendas). That piece of fiction stems from the misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989 GSO report on preceding AA membership surveys. Attempting to link bogus Big Book translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus 95% relapse rate as cause and effect is beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators were motivated by "anti-spiritual resentments" illustrates the disparaging hyperbole that has permeated and polluted commentary on the matter from its onset. The BBSG research was anything but "scientific." In their web site statement the German word "giestig" was defined to only mean "intellectual." It has several meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The word "seelisch" (derived from the German word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only mean "psychological" when it too has several meanings one of which is also "spiritual." The German member asserted that the word "spirituell" should have been used to denote the English word "spiritual." That's how the whole episode started. It was all a matter of semantic preference. Two Word documents were available that purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book translations. After personally examining both of them line by line it was plainly evident that claims of translation shortcomings were disingenuous and far more delusional than definitive. The Big Book copyright has expired only in the US and is still in force outside the US through international treaty agreements. In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized that a public lawsuit is a public controversy, something in which our Tradition says we may not engage." His statement was in reference to a matter in the early 1950s of whether AA should petition Congress for congressional incorporation of the name "Alcoholics Anonymous." The Conference decision was "no" but matters changed over time and the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's statement about lawsuits is not frozen in perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early 1950s and his Concepts essays from the early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate such things as the world-wide internet, desk-top publishing, digitization and the international explosion of treaties and laws protecting intellectual property rights. From the material I've collected over the past years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack of balance and civil discussion in presenting both sides of the issue. The greatest part of the internet data consists of rather harsh accusations against the Board, AAWS and GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy out of the episode or having little better to do than seek out errant AA members to punish them. Something that is not well known in regard to lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995 Conferences. The 1993 case involved the circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped and so were some recommendations of a special ad hoc committee formed the prior year to address the matter. The ad hoc committee's recommendation that "The Conference find that the initiation of litigation involving trademarks and service marks is a violation of Warranty Five" wound up as "not considered" in the Conference proceedings. The 1995 Conference concerned both the situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit. The 1995 Conference voted not to consider several proposed floor actions in the Conference proceedings. Among them: Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous meet with representatives of the two service structures in Mexico (Central and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring to the 1996 Conference recommendations which would preclude reoccurrence of this type of conflict in any other situation/country." Not considered: "Seccion Mexico has sent three letters to our General Service Conference asking the Conference to review their petitions of grievance, which is their right under Concept V of World Service. To fulfill our spiritual responsibility I propose the following motion: "That this Conference review and discuss these petitions and forward a response to Seccion Mexico." Not considered: "The Conference recommends that the General Service Board and its subsidiary boards, AA World Services Inc and AA Grapevine Inc initiate no litigation in defense of copyrights and trademarks, in accordance with Tradition 10 and Warranty 5." While the 1995 Conference did not vote to approve lawsuits it did vote to decline to consider them. Gary, I've taken the time to respond to your individual points below and that will be the end of my participation in the exchange. Your points are denoted with "(GB)" and my response to them with "(AS)." ------------------------------------------------ (GB): I don't know where to begin, Arthur. Calling the members of the man's Home Group 'accomplices' seems a bit inflammatory. They are fellow members, joined in a 12th Step activity. The mail order business was not engaged in the Big Book give aways. You can refer to the findings from the German Court in dismissing the first complaint, the criminal charge. (AS): The trustees' 2004 Conference report states that the involvement of the mail order business was a documented fact in the distribution of the book in Russia through catalogs that the business mailed to Russian groups. AABBSG assisted and financially supported the German member's efforts. His actions were found to be illegal by a German court of law and its verdict was sustained on appeal. An accomplice is someone who helps somebody do something illegal. Labeling their actions as being "joined in a 12th Step activity" fails to distinguish between the stated nobility of intentions and the de facto illegitimacy of actions. One can carry AA's message without breaking the law. And as noted earlier there was no compelling reason to publish the illegal book in the first place. ------------------------------------------------ (GB): The 'small but vocal group' you refer to in Mexico was an entire service structure with over 2,000 groups, with Districts, Areas, Delegates and a Conference. (AS): The 2004 Conference report mentions a meeting between the German member and a "small but vocal group" of Mexican members. It was not a description of the size of Section Mexico. The German member and some "accomplices" published "El Libro Azul" (an illegal Spanish language knock-off of the Big Book). ------------------------------------------------ (GB): The permission (in Article Two) is given for the Conference (not AAWS) to grant the right to publish, and only where a General Service Structure exists. Central Mexicana was not a service structure but just a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries where a General Service Structure exists, the United States/Canada Conference will delegate sole right to publish our Conference-approved Literature to the General Service Board of that structure." (AS): Your legalistic interpretation is semantically and substantively incorrect. AAWS and GSO are both part of a "service structure" or "Conference" (re the service Manual footnotes for the Original Permanent Conference Charter). In 1979 the term "Conference" was defined to consist of "the Delegates, the Trustees, the General Service Board, the directors of AAWS and AA Grapevine and staff members of the Grapevine and GSO." They are all voting participants in the "Conference" of the US and Canada. Also reference the footnote for the Current Conference Charter which states "The word 'Conference' as used in paragraph 2 of the 'Current Conference Charter' appears to be synonymous with 'General Service Conference' or 'General Service Structure' in its application to national AA entities outside of the US/Canada; and, while the 'Charter' may provide guidance to other GSOs they are still autonomous, and not bound by its mandates, except where the law might require it (e.g. copyright law)." Each country can autonomously define its own service structure which does not have to be a replica of the US/Canada structure. Section Mexico broke away from Central Mexico who was recognized as the exclusive "service structure" for publication licensing. AAWS legitimately acted in its long- standing, and well-established, role of managing copyrights, reprint permissions and publication licenses for Conference- approved literature. Central Mexico qualified as a licensee and a General Service structure. ------------------------------------------------ (GB): Your 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' comment concerning profit is definitely not researched. Before the civil case there was a criminal case where the German Court found that there was indeed no profiting going on. [reference to] http://gsowatch.aamo.info/ger/g8.gif. In fact, the books have a disclaimer on them that states that they are free and should not be bought or sold. Further, the financial report you are not aware of was given to the German court, which is part of the reason they dismissed the criminal charges. There is no evidence what-so-ever that there was anything but an altruistic motive in this case. As is a tradition in this country, guilt must be proved, not innocence. (AS): My comment was "Perhaps the acceptance of so-called '7th Traditions contributions' still means that the books were given away free (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) but I'll take that with a bit of skepticism." The word "profit" was not mentioned. The outside cover of the illegal publication states that it is for free and its inside cover states that AABBSG will accept "7th Tradition donations." That's what I was commenting on. I made no mention of criminal charges. In terms of the German court, it might be far more instructive to dwell on what they did do rather than on what they didn't do. The German member's guilt was proven in that court and upheld on appeal. ------------------------------------------------ (GB): You mentioned that the German member did not respond to the offer to forego reimbursement, etc. What you didn't mention was that there were many stipulations for that to take effect, not just the one you mentioned. One of the other stipulations was to reveal the names of all members of the AABBSG (his Home Group), breaking the anonymity of all at a public level. Of course he refused, and started paying. I would like to remind everyone that all the Big Books that were printed in Germany and Mexico were from the First or Second Editions, which are both in the Public Domain. (AS): The Steps, Traditions and Concepts are not conveniences to take refuge behind to avoid the consequences of breaking the law. According to the German member, the translators had it wrong, two Boards had it wrong, AAWS had it wrong and several GSOs had it wrong but he had it right. I'd suggest that the numbers do not work convincingly in his favor. As mentioned earlier, the Big Book copyright has lapsed only in the US. It is still valid outside the US by international treaty agreements. It is not in the public domain of the signatory countries nor is anyone legally permitted to print the book in the US and ship it overseas to a signatory country. As difficult as may be for some to acknowledge, AA members are obligated to comply with law the same as everyone else on this planet otherwise consequences ensue that are not waived based on AA membership. ------------------------------------------------ (GB): I suspect that is enough for now. I would like to suggest that anyone even slightly concerned about these issues read Concept XII, Warranty 5. In my Service Manual, it suggests that we not sue anyone, at any time, for any reason. Further, it says, "Some deviators have suffered rather severe personal criticism from individual AA members, and this is to be deplored." This was written by Bill W. Every piece of evidence points that this man and his group were carrying the AA message as best they could. While one may disagree with their methods, the hateful attacks seem inappropriate. Please reread Warranty 5. (AS): As stated earlier the Concepts are not laws or commandments and matters change over time (not to everyone's satisfaction). Your "Some deviators" citation would be more instructive by including the sentences that follow it: "Some deviators have suffered rather severe personal criticism from individual A.A. members, and this is to be deplored. However this is no reason for us to stop reminding all concerned of the undesirability of breaking A.A.'s Traditions before the entire public. It can be said in all fairness that the difficulties of those who contravene the Traditions are chiefly troubles of their own making." I'd suggest that the German member's troubles were of his own making and that the evidence demonstrated that he was breaking the law. He certainly had a role in fomenting public controversy in several countries and doing harm to AA as a whole with rather inflammatory content and commentary over the internet. Claims of "carrying AA's message as best they could" seem to fall more into the category of "alibi" rather than exoneration. The AA service entities that brought the lawsuit have also had their staff members subjected to broad-brush severe personal criticism whether or not the staff member had any role at all in the lawsuit. Claiming that they engaged in "hateful attacks" is neither demonstrated nor warranted. It falls into the same hyperbole of claiming that the German translators were motivated by "anti-spiritual resentments." It's far more a product of negative imagination rather than objective investigation. The critics of the German law suit seem to have little tolerance and much scorn of an opposing viewpoint. AA's message can be carried without breaking the law. It's that simple. Finally, the only hateful attacks I've witnessed (and there is audit trail archive of it going back for years) have emanated from the web site you use as a reference. You are part of that group. Over the past several years: Has that group done any harm to AA as a whole by continually claiming that the AA service entities that brought the lawsuit did so as a hateful attack rather than on the reasons they explained to the General Service Conferences? Has that group done any harm to AA as a whole where, to this day, just about any action of the part of those service entities is still subject to international public ridicule and condemnation (over the world-wide internet)? Has that group engaged in public controversy by inciting AA members and groups to take the punitive action of withholding donations to GSO based on a single issue and despite all the other good service works done by GSO? Has that group done harm to AA as a whole in its pillory of Bill W's authorship role in the Big Book or in its public broadcast of the embarrassment concerning his named beneficiaries in his last will and testament? Is there one set of Traditions and Concepts that apply to the Board, AAWS and GSO but a different set that apply to AA members using the internet (an international public forum) often to the extreme of engaging in slander and revisionist history? Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4151. . . . . . . . . . . . I''ve Never Quit Being Active (1968), Clarence S. From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2007 7:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've Never Quit Being Active by Clarence Snyder A.A. Grapevine, November 1999 On February 11, 1938, I had my last drink. I was a chronic alky, and through a long, involved miracle, I met my sponsor, Dr. Bob, one of our co-founders. He put me in Akron City Hospital, where I met the alkies who had preceded me in the Fellowship. Fifteen months later, I organized the Cleveland, Ohio AA group. The activity in the Cleveland area was hectic. I spent practically all my time obtaining and following up on publicity for AA, lining up cooperation with civic and church groups, hospitals, and courts, and helping new groups to start. So what do I do now, thirty years later? I have never quit being active, although my position in the Fellowship has modified over the years. I attend an average of two meetings per week, when I am home. I am also asked to speak at various groups. In addition, I am invited to take part in numerous group anniversary programs and AA roundups around the country (and sometimes out of the country). Many people call upon me for counsel and advice on both personal and group problems. I have an extensive correspondence, since I have made so many friends in AA from coast to coast. Once in a while, I sponsor someone. Cases where about everything has been tried, by everyone else, often wind up in my hands. I have not found the program to be difficult, and I maintain that if it does seem difficult for anyone, he is not doing it "right." Certainly, when I came to this Fellowship, I was in no position or condition to handle anything difficult! I kept things simple. But I must add that when I first began I was well sponsored. I took measures now summarized in the first nine Steps of the program: admittance of need (the First Step), surrender (Second through Seventh), and restitution (Eighth and Ninth). Having done this, I no longer had a drinking problem, since it had been turned over to a Higher Power. Now I had - and still have - a living problem. But that is taken care of by the practice of Steps Ten, Eleven, and Twelve. So I don't have to be concerned about anything but a simple three-step program, which with practice has become habitual. Step Ten enables me to check on myself and my activities of the day. I have found that most things disturbing me are little things, but still the very things which, if not dealt with, can pile up and eventually overwhelm me. My daily checkup covers good deeds as well as questionable ones; often, I find I can commend myself in some areas, while in others I owe apologies. Step Eleven is done after my daily inventory. I usually need the peace resulting from prayer and meditation, and I do receive guidance for my life and actions. Step Twelve, to me, does involve not only carrying the message, but extending AA principles into all phases of my daily life. I learned long ago that this is a life- changing program, but that, after the change occurs, it is necessary for me to go on making the effort to improve myself mentally, morally, and spiritually. This is my simple program, and I recommend it to anyone who wants a good life and is willing to do his share of helping. C.H.S., St. Petersburg, Florida IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4152. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Percentage women in AA worldwide? From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2007 8:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 35% at last count. This and other AA information is available on AA's website: aa.org as well is in a printed pamphlet (P-48) called the Membership Survey: http://aa.org/en_pdfs/p-48_04survey.pdf Why only 35%? Shouldn't it be 50%. That's what I thought. But about 10 years ago I was standing in a buffet line next to John Chappel, a Reno, NV psychiatrist and one of our Class A Trustees. We had just reviewed the membership survey. John said that it's a funny thing. As best as medical science knows from autopsies, etc., no more than 20-25% of alcoholics are women. And yet we have a much higher percentage in AA. John surmised that this may be because these two men developed a program that involves "sharing your feelings" and this was something women do better than men. I do not know how accurate the medical science number is and our statistic is definitely subject to question, but this was an interesting interaction that stuck with me. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4153. . . . . . . . . . . . Irish bishops on alcoholism in Ireland From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2007 6:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For those interested about alcoholism in Ireland, I suggest viewing "Reduce alcohol consumption hurting the family, nation, Irish bishops urge" at http://www.catholic.org/printer_friendly.php?id=23061§ion=Cathcom and "Text of the Irish bishops' pastoral letter `Alcohol: The Challenge of Moderation'" at http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=23062 john blair IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4154. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2007 8:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I didn't however see anyone mention that the author of the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of codified principles exist that take precedence over the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of > state and national laws and treaties having the effect of law" Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of the actual document bearing Wayne's signature. Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless one gets caught. > To Gary B and Lee N - > this is a very long reply > > The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are > historic AA milestones whether or not they > are viewed as infamous. Their history should > be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both > supporters and critics. Many AA members > have staked out a position, some with > reasoned argument and others with vitriol. > > The Traditions and Concepts are often cited > as inviolable and near scriptural > commandments that predetermine what the > conduct of those who brought the lawsuit > should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely > directed at the German member who was > found guilty of breaking the law. He is > typically portrayed as a noble victim > absolved of his legal infractions because he > wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who > stopped him from breaking the law are > typically portrayed as villains having "hateful > intentions." > > While it may be hard for some AA members > to swallow, bodies of codified principles > exist that take precedence over the Steps, > Traditions and Concepts. They consist of > state and national laws and treaties having > the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor > Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step > activities" provide a refuge of extralegal > privilege to evade the law and the resulting > consequences of its infraction. > > When AA members are involved in 12th Step > calls, it does not grant them extralegal > privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore > red lights on the way to carry AA's message. > Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with > a Big Book translation, it does not endow > them with extralegal privilege to print their > > own preferred version in violation of > copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th > Step activity." > > Events leading up to the German lawsuit > were premised on claims that the translation > of the German Big Book lacked words > denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted > words denoting "psychological" and > "intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The > website that supported the German member > carried the following statements: > > ---------- > "A scientific research revaled [sic] > differences between BBSG and German GSO > versions of the big book. > > BBSG translated the multilith manuscript, > because we were sure there were no > restrictions by any copyright protection on it. > German GSO sold a translation of 1983 > based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this > had many mistakes. For example: The 11 > chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108 > times in the multilith manuscript and 106 > times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of > 1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight > times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it > was mostly replaced by "seelisch -- > psychological" and/or by "geistig -- > intellectual". This, among other faults, > diluted the spiritual foundations of our > recovery program and resulted in an > extremely high relapse rate of more than > 95% among German AA members. We felt > obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation > of [sic] has the correct German word > "spirituell". There is more background > information available at [.]" > ---------- > > The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and > unsubstantiated (but often repeated these > days in AA as part of various agendas). That > piece of fiction stems from the > misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989 > GSO report on preceding AA membership > surveys. > > Attempting to link bogus Big Book > translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus > 95% relapse rate as cause and effect is > beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators > were motivated by "anti-spiritual > resentments" illustrates the disparaging > hyperbole that has permeated and polluted > commentary on the matter from its onset. > > The BBSG research was anything but > "scientific." In their web site statement > the German word "giestig" was defined to > only mean "intellectual." It has several > meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The > word "seelisch" (derived from the German > word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only > mean "psychological" when it too has several > meanings one of which is also "spiritual." > The German member asserted that the word > "spirituell" should have been used to denote > the English word "spiritual." That's how the > whole episode started. It was all a matter of > semantic preference. > > Two Word documents were available that > purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in > the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book > translations. After personally examining both > of them line by line it was plainly evident > that claims of translation shortcomings were > disingenuous and far more delusional than > definitive. > > The Big Book copyright has expired only in > the US and is still in force outside the US > through international treaty agreements. > > In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on > Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized > that a public lawsuit is a public controversy, > something in which our Tradition says we > may not engage." His statement was in > reference to a matter in the early 1950s of > whether AA should petition Congress for > congressional incorporation of the name > "Alcoholics Anonymous." > > The Conference decision was "no" but > matters changed over time and the name > "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were > legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's > statement about lawsuits is not frozen in > perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached > the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and > Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His > Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early > 1950s and his Concepts essays from the > early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate > such things as the world-wide internet, > desk-top publishing, digitization and the > international explosion of treaties and laws > protecting intellectual property rights. > > From the material I've collected over the past > years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack > of balance and civil discussion in presenting > both sides of the issue. The greatest part of > the internet data consists of rather harsh > accusations against the Board, AAWS and > GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy > out of the episode or having little better to do > than seek out errant AA members to punish > them. > > Something that is not well known in regard to > lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995 > Conferences. The 1993 case involved the > circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped > and so were some recommendations of a > special ad hoc committee formed the prior > year to address the matter. The ad hoc > > committee's recommendation that "The > Conference find that the initiation of > litigation involving trademarks and service > marks is a violation of Warranty Five" > wound up as "not considered" in the > Conference proceedings. > > The 1995 Conference concerned both the > situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit. > The 1995 Conference voted not to consider > several proposed floor actions in the > Conference proceedings. Among them: > > Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New > Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the > General Service Board of Alcoholics > Anonymous meet with representatives of the > two service structures in Mexico (Central > and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if > needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring > to the 1996 Conference recommendations > which would preclude reoccurrence of this > type of conflict in any other > situation/country." > > === message truncated === IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4155. . . . . . . . . . . . How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? From: theresa leisinger . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/5/2007 11:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I love the Grapevine digital archives site. Fascinating and inspiring.I was there the other day,looking up some old Tiebout articles I had heard about. Any idea what search words might help me turn up some Priscilla P. articles? I tried the other day, no luck. Maybe I'll just have to read them all, one at a time! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4157. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book price in Mexico From: Angela Corelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2007 10:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just returned from quarterly Nayarit II District Meeting, held here in Puerto Vallarta. At the literature table, GSO publication Big Book ................... 18 pesos.. about 1.60 U$ Pocket Big Book..........24 p....about 2.30U$ Twelve Steps...............12 p.....about 1.15 U$ 12X12..........................34p .....about 3.20 U$ For comparison a cup of coffee in Mexican.. not tourist areas is about 10 p..U$ 0.95 (only have soft bound in Mexico...that I know of) I do not consider that expensive for AA literature. As rule other books are expensive in Mexico, 15-30 US$ from the days when most wood pulp for paper was imported because of a 20 year moritorium on logging...and of course when that was lifted, costs remained high. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4158. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? From: Corey Franks . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 11:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HI.. I did a 13 month Intership with Bill P. at Hazelden a few years ago and found Priscilla P in a lot of Articles i had read in the Grapevines. Bill P. had me read from the first one out there who was in the very early days until way into the laters days. She had great influence in AA circles in the beginnings and she was very right on with her articles and participation. Quite the outstanding person! Look her up in the earliest of the Grapevines. Thx! Corey F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4159. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2007 11:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dave and I have never tried searching for any of Priscilla P's articles, whether in the Grapevine or Vogue Magazine, where she was art editor for decades. In fact, we've not seen any example of her written work except a love note or two. Odd, when I think of it, considering she was an English major in college, and certainly knew her way around words. But her favored mode of expression was art - drawing and painting. Have you tried just her initials, P.P.? It's also possible she never did sign what she wrote. Do let me know if you come across anything. Good luck! Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown, coauthor A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4160. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "came to scoff" quote From: TBaerMojo@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 10:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "The Deserted Village" is often quoted here by fans of Auburn University who cite the phrase "lovelist village of the plain" as a tribute to their school. Of course, most have not read the poem or they would realize that it is about the glory that used to be and is now gone. But, what the heck, it's a land grant university. Thanks for the info on the origin of the last sentence in Silkworth's opinion that without spiritual help drunks are doomed. Tim -----Original Message----- From: awn4@columbia.edu To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 7:54 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "came to scoff" quote From Dr. Silkworth's letter, it is quoted from Oliver Goldsmith, "The Deserted Village," with an echo in the story in "Tom Sawyer" about whitewashing the fence. - - - - Hey folks, Maybe you all knew this already, but I was thrilled this morning to stumble across the origin of the last line of Dr. Silkworth's letter on page xxxii in The Doctor's Opinion. The sentence reads, "I earnestly advise every alcoholic to read this book through, and though perhaps he came to scoff, he may remain to pray." I've begun reading "Tom Sawyer" to my third-grade daughter in the morning before the school bus arrives. Today we read the famous second chapter where Tom tricks the boys in the neighborhood to pay him for the privilege of whitewashing the fence for him. Mark Twain writes, "...they came to jeer but remained to whitewash." The footnote then refers us to "The Deserted Village," a poem written in 1770 by Oliver Goldsmith. Lines 177-180 read, "At church, with meek and unaffected grace,/His looks adorned the venerable place;/Truth from his lips prevailed the double sway,/And fools, who came to scoff, remained to pray." Here's Wikipedia on Goldsmith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Goldsmith And here's the poem: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~mgamer/Etexts/goldsmith Did I find something new? New to me, at any rate. I love The Doctor's Opinion. Sasha ************ Sasha N. in Amherst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4161. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 2:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To me, when all of this was happening, it was not the details that seemed to matter to the minority who opposed the public controversy in Mexico and Germany; it was the aggresive chauvinistic attitude of AAWS and its then President and GSO manager, George D. that upset us. We never had any defense against the legal arguments that were tossed around but we were united in the fact that the Traditions, Concepts, and the clear intentions of our founders were being violated with impunity and spiritual arrogance. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > > Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about > LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I > didn't however see anyone mention that the author of > the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in > Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get > a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living > author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that > book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so > interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may > be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of > codified principles exist that take precedence over > the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of > > state and national laws and treaties having the > effect of law" > > Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book > or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt > here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of > the actual document bearing Wayne's signature. > > Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a > selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless > one gets caught. > > > > > To Gary B and Lee N - > > this is a very long reply > > > > The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are > > historic AA milestones whether or not they > > are viewed as infamous. Their history should > > be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both > > supporters and critics. Many AA members > > have staked out a position, some with > > reasoned argument and others with vitriol. > > > > The Traditions and Concepts are often cited > > as inviolable and near scriptural > > commandments that predetermine what the > > conduct of those who brought the lawsuit > > should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely > > directed at the German member who was > > found guilty of breaking the law. He is > > typically portrayed as a noble victim > > absolved of his legal infractions because he > > wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who > > stopped him from breaking the law are > > typically portrayed as villains having "hateful > > intentions." > > > > While it may be hard for some AA members > > to swallow, bodies of codified principles > > exist that take precedence over the Steps, > > Traditions and Concepts. They consist of > > state and national laws and treaties having > > the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor > > Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step > > activities" provide a refuge of extralegal > > privilege to evade the law and the resulting > > consequences of its infraction. > > > > When AA members are involved in 12th Step > > calls, it does not grant them extralegal > > privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore > > red lights on the way to carry AA's message. > > Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with > > a Big Book translation, it does not endow > > them with extralegal privilege to print their > > > > own preferred version in violation of > > copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th > > Step activity." > > > > Events leading up to the German lawsuit > > were premised on claims that the translation > > of the German Big Book lacked words > > denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted > > words denoting "psychological" and > > "intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The > > website that supported the German member > > carried the following statements: > > > > ---------- > > "A scientific research revaled [sic] > > differences between BBSG and German GSO > > versions of the big book. > > > > BBSG translated the multilith manuscript, > > because we were sure there were no > > restrictions by any copyright protection on it. > > German GSO sold a translation of 1983 > > based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this > > had many mistakes. For example: The 11 > > chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108 > > times in the multilith manuscript and 106 > > times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of > > 1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight > > times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it > > was mostly replaced by "seelisch -- > > psychological" and/or by "geistig -- > > intellectual". This, among other faults, > > diluted the spiritual foundations of our > > recovery program and resulted in an > > extremely high relapse rate of more than > > 95% among German AA members. We felt > > obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation > > of [sic] has the correct German word > > "spirituell". There is more background > > information available at [.]" > > ---------- > > > > The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and > > unsubstantiated (but often repeated these > > days in AA as part of various agendas). That > > piece of fiction stems from the > > misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989 > > GSO report on preceding AA membership > > surveys. > > > > Attempting to link bogus Big Book > > translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus > > 95% relapse rate as cause and effect is > > beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators > > were motivated by "anti-spiritual > > resentments" illustrates the disparaging > > hyperbole that has permeated and polluted > > commentary on the matter from its onset. > > > > The BBSG research was anything but > > "scientific." In their web site statement > > the German word "giestig" was defined to > > only mean "intellectual." It has several > > meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The > > word "seelisch" (derived from the German > > word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only > > mean "psychological" when it too has several > > meanings one of which is also "spiritual." > > The German member asserted that the word > > "spirituell" should have been used to denote > > the English word "spiritual." That's how the > > whole episode started. It was all a matter of > > semantic preference. > > > > Two Word documents were available that > > purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in > > the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book > > translations. After personally examining both > > of them line by line it was plainly evident > > that claims of translation shortcomings were > > disingenuous and far more delusional than > > definitive. > > > > The Big Book copyright has expired only in > > the US and is still in force outside the US > > through international treaty agreements. > > > > In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on > > Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized > > that a public lawsuit is a public controversy, > > something in which our Tradition says we > > may not engage." His statement was in > > reference to a matter in the early 1950s of > > whether AA should petition Congress for > > congressional incorporation of the name > > "Alcoholics Anonymous." > > > > The Conference decision was "no" but > > matters changed over time and the name > > "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were > > legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's > > statement about lawsuits is not frozen in > > perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached > > the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and > > Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His > > Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early > > 1950s and his Concepts essays from the > > early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate > > such things as the world-wide internet, > > desk-top publishing, digitization and the > > international explosion of treaties and laws > > protecting intellectual property rights. > > > > From the material I've collected over the past > > years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack > > of balance and civil discussion in presenting > > both sides of the issue. The greatest part of > > the internet data consists of rather harsh > > accusations against the Board, AAWS and > > GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy > > out of the episode or having little better to do > > than seek out errant AA members to punish > > them. > > > > Something that is not well known in regard to > > lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995 > > Conferences. The 1993 case involved the > > circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped > > and so were some recommendations of a > > special ad hoc committee formed the prior > > year to address the matter. The ad hoc > > > > committee's recommendation that "The > > Conference find that the initiation of > > litigation involving trademarks and service > > marks is a violation of Warranty Five" > > wound up as "not considered" in the > > Conference proceedings. > > > > The 1995 Conference concerned both the > > situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit. > > The 1995 Conference voted not to consider > > several proposed floor actions in the > > Conference proceedings. Among them: > > > > Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New > > Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the > > General Service Board of Alcoholics > > Anonymous meet with representatives of the > > two service structures in Mexico (Central > > and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if > > needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring > > to the 1996 Conference recommendations > > which would preclude reoccurrence of this > > type of conflict in any other > > situation/country." > > > > > === message truncated === > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4162. . . . . . . . . . . . The start of AA in Ireland from the Furrow (Nov. 1953) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 4:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: JOHN e REID (jre33756 at bigpond.net.au) Subject: The start of AA in Ireland (article from The Furrow, November 1953) "Twenty-nine years ago it was carried to Australia by a travelling American". (Further comment by John R- The genesis of AA came to Australia via the Big Book being sent to Dr. Sylvester Minogue in 1942.) "Three years later, it came indirectly from Australia to Ireland, this time by a priest. This priest was on holiday in Dublin in September 1946 and was interviewed by an evening paper on the subject of a Boy’s Town with which he was connected in Australia. In the course of his talk he commented at length on the success that A.A. was having in Sydney and expressed the hope that Dublin would do well to take it up. This interview was read by a member of the Philadelphia group, an Irishman who had gone to live in the States, who was over here on holiday. Spurred on by his wife, he determined to start a group in Dublin, with the help of a doctor and by advertising, he managed to scrape together a small number of men willing to make the experiment. Their first public meeting was held in The Country Shop on November25th.; and here on that night the first A.A. group in Europe was formed." THE FURROW, NOVEMBER, 1953 (Details amended to 1972) ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS A CATHOLIC MEMBERS APPRECIATION "I HEAR the A.A. want to start a group here. Do you know anything about these fellows?" I was shown this part of a letter from one country priest to another not so long ago. I am an alcoholic myself and a member of A.A. for twenty-four years. My own success in the adventure of sobriety is bound up with the success of A.A. in Ireland. The object of this article is to tell something about "these fellows": what we are, what we try to do and what we have so far achieved. For we have found a knowledge and understanding of A.A. has made us friends and gained us helpers. Up to comparatively recently, Society has placed all drunks in the same category - weak-willed, callous, helpless and unhelpable, intentional sinners, skeletons whose greatest offence is that they will not remain snugly in their family cupboards. Yet nearly everyone knows at least one person whose drinking has apparently almost without warning become incomprehensible. Men with good homes, money, good business or jobs, good reputations, healthy, in no way unhappy, suddenly go off the rails. Normal, seemingly, when not drinking, their characters undergo a complete change once they start on alcohol. Their former occasional "night-outs" develop swiftly into bouts, the bouts come closer and closer together. In many cases they are seldom completely sober. Their drinking is followed by periods of intense remorse, by sincere though short lived attempts to stay off liquor. Their relatives are in turn startled, puzzled, anxious to help, resentful, contemptuous, enraged. They themselves are at first sure they can find a way of retaining control "next time," then frightened when they fail repeatedly, then hopeless. Their complete ignorance of what has happened to them, what is still happened to them, what is still happening to them, makes it impossible for them to explain to, and gain the understanding sympathy of, those they love and respect. Little by little they cut themselves off from their world; they live in a state of desperate loneliness and finally become outcasts. These are the persons sometimes called the Problem Drinkers. They are, in fact, alcoholics or compulsive drinkers, suffering from a physical allergy to alcohol combined with a mental obsession to take more once they start to drink: drinkers whose compulsion to drink is a sign of disease. There are few alcoholics who have recovered who would deny that this disease is really spiritual. A.A. is a loose knit society of men and women alcoholics who have banded together in groups all over the world to share their experience, strength and hope with each other, that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. There are at the time of writing over 14,000 such groups, with a total membership of about 500,000 spread all over the world. The only requirement for membership is a sincere desire to stop drinking. A.A. is not allied with any particular religion, creed or denomination. It has nothing to do with politics, other organizations or any institution. A.A. simply minds its own business…to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. Alcoholism is not a purely Catholic, Protestant or Jewish disease; it is not the exclusive illness of either the millionaire or the down-and-out. Alcoholism strikes at all creeds, class and income—grades impartially. A.A.’s success has largely derived from its refusal to recognize any difference between one alcoholic and another. They are all sick persons, requiring A.A. ‘s help. A.A. does not usurp the place of Church or Medicine. The alcoholic who joins in poor physical condition is strongly advised to consult his doctor. The alcoholic’s religion, or lack of it, is his own affair. In general, it has been our experience that a good A.A. member becomes a better member of his Church. But our primary object is to achieve sobriety. From that sobriety the other things will stem; without it, they are impossible. A.A. is not concerned with money. It has nothing to sell and none of its members are paid for A.A. work. There are no positions of authority to be obtained; each member is on exactly the same footing. Its policy of anonymity does away with the danger of membership being used as a means of obtaining personal kudos. Thus the three most ordinary occasions of disunity and disruption are guarded against. Each group is autonomous. Its own members care for the necessary money to meet expenses of rent, printing and incidentals. Donations from outside sources are politely refused. Its officers are elected in rotation. Its policy of anonymity was first chosen as a worldly safeguard for its members; the spiritual value of anonymity has become more apparent since. But while personal anonymity is required, A.A. is only too glad of any publicity to its aims and being. It came into existence thirty six years ago in America through a chance meeting between a New York stockbroker named Bill (in A.A. all members go by their first names), and an Akron doctor, Bob. Bill had already managed to keep sober for six months as the result of following out a few principles of living largely based on the Oxford Groups "Absolutes." He had, however, just had the bad end of a business deal and came to realize that to preserve his own sobriety he must make contact with another alcoholic and help him to achieve sobriety as well. Both of these men had long and dreadful histories of drink; but from that first meeting, they both remained sober. Bob died twenty-two years ago, but Bill lived till 1971, a total abstainer for over 36 years, after he had been given up as a hopeless and unhelpable drunk. The society they started that day grew slowly and shakily; it took over four years to muster the first hundred members. Since then it has grown in increasing tempo to its present size. In numbers it is still mainly American, United States and Canada. Twenty-nine years ago it was carried to Australia by a travelling American. Three years later, it came indirectly from Australia to Ireland, this time by a priest. This priest was on holiday in Dublin in September 1946 and was interviewed by an evening paper on the subject of a Boy’s Town with which he was connected in Australia. In the course of his talk he commented at length on the success that A.A. was having in Sydney and expressed the hope that Dublin would do well to take it up. This interview was read by a member of the Philadelphia group, an Irishman who had gone to live in the States, who was over here on holiday. Spurred on by his wife, he determined to start a group in Dublin, with the help of a doctor and by advertising, he managed to scrape together a small number of men willing to make the experiment. Their first public meeting was held in The Country Shop on November 25th.; and here on that night the first A.A. group in Europe was formed. As in America, the start was slow and uphill. Today it is firmly established in Dublin (35 Groups ); there are many large groups in Belfast; there are several groups in Limerick, Cork and Galway, and smaller ones elsewhere. Public meetings are held every Monday night, still in The Country Shop, where attendance’s range from 50 upwards to 100. The maximum attendance was at a meeting held in the Mansion House when over 400 came along to listen to the Co-Founder of the Society, Bill. At a conservative estimate, there are at least 2000 members in Ireland and an estimated 8,000 in England, Scotland and Wales. A good many others, though partially convinced, are not yet ready to make, and act on, the necessary admission that they are beaten by drink. A world estimate is that about 70% of those who join and give the A.A. program a fair trial recover, though a great many of these suffer one or more relapses before they finally settle down. A short time ago, I was asked at a clerical meeting to explain to them why an alcoholic went on drinking long after it was evident that he was incapable of exercising control. I find it almost impossible to do so. I can only say that for a very long period of my own thirty years drinking I honestly believed I could, someday and somehow, find a way of drinking all I wanted without losing control. Life without drink seemed to me to be an unnatural and quite impossible way of existence. Later I became drearily hopeless and fatalistic about it. Though I still continued to make attempts to pull up, I felt even at the time that they were quite useless. I felt it would start again sometime, so what was the use of trying too hard? The truth is that we don’t know why we drink; but when we tell the truth, we are not believed. Strength of will and sincerity of purpose do not enter into it. I have entered my name for a Retreat to find help in Quitting drink, yet gone to that retreat with a bottle of gin in my bag, which I drank between the first exercise and going to sleep. After a month’s voluntary treatment in a private home, I felt convinced I had mastered drink; and been drinking again within a few hours. Drink makes us mentally unbalanced and we cannot be honest even with ourselves for long at a time. My own case history may be cited as typical of an A.A. member, though space will mercifully prelude any but the minimum necessary details. I am seventy-five years of age, single and come from a good class Catholic family. My home life was happy and I went to a Catholic College in England. Later I entered the profession I wanted to join; I was very happy in it, I got on well. I was good at games; I was considered good at work, above the average of my rank in the British Army. I had a promising future to look forward to, I had nothing from which to escape. There was no previous history of drink in my family. I can see no reason why I should have become an alcoholic, yet almost from the start I drank like an alcoholic. At first I had some sort of control over myself as to when I drank. If circumstances seemed to indicate the need for it, I cut out drinking without much effort and with no feeling of self sacrifice. But even in those first years if I drank at all I went on for the rest of the night. Soon I was losing even that control. I began to drink at the wrong times, in the wrong places and before the wrong people. Good luck and good friends covered up for me for many years, but finally life caught up on me and I was retired on retired pay, branded as not to be re-employed. This virtual dismissal made very little impression on me. I still had enough money for drink and I had a home to live in. Six more years were to pass before the climax came. I had been inflicting every kind of unhappiness not only on myself but on my parents, not the least for the latter being my complete indifference to my religious duties. In April 1947 they ordered me out of the house and the family and their lives. By now I had added drugs to alcohol. My routine had become one of the drugs in the morning to revive me, drink all day and another drug at night to give me sleep. My parents’ "revolt" opened my eyes for the first time to where I had descended. It proved to be my own gutter. Fear for my security and at the prospect of becoming one of the legion of the homeless lost ( with the next stop almost certainly a Night Shelter ), at last made me genuinely willing in my own interest to do anything I could to stop drinking ("Give me back my Legions".). The trouble was that I could think of nothing useful. Doctors, homes, hospitals, promises, all had proved in vain. Then my memory went back to that interview I had read nine months before, about A.A. The Grace of God must have put it into my heart to go to a meeting that night, and I managed to strike a one-sided bargain with my parents that if A.A. could do some good I might stay at my parents on probation. I arrived at that meeting, more than half-drunk, shaking from drugs and nerves; not too good a prospect, even for A.A. By the goodness of God and the help He has sent me through A.A. I have not had another drink since then. There is no set blueprint of recovery in A.A. Each member succeeds in his own way and time and at his own pace. So what I write must be taken as my own experience only. For me, recovery came from Knowledge, Decision, Group or social therapy, a return to Realism and the program of the Twelve Steps. All of these together for me make up the A.A. way of life. And I attacked my recovery problem in just that order, which seems to me to be entirely logical. Without Knowledge, I could not come to any decision that would stand up for long. Without Decision to recover, group therapy would be a waste of time. Without Realism I should have been continuing my old pattern of running away into dreamland from the inescapable facts of life. And while all these things were essential to me to stop drinking, I had to bring another factor into play, the Twelve Steps, to learn not only how to remain abstinent but to be happy in remaining so. That Knowledge was elementary, though new to me. Alcoholism is a sort of disease acquired by two or three percent of the world’s drinkers. The disease in simplifying language is the disease of not being able to drink in moderation. It is the first drink the alcoholic takes that sets his disease in active virulence, not the total quantity consumed. Alcoholism cannot be completely eliminated once it gains a footing. No matter how long I might remain abstinent at a time, I would never be able to control my drinking if I started again. But if I could find a way of not taking a first drink, I could stay sober and normal. The decision I had to take was to give up drinking for good. I had to face the unpalatable fact that I must make abstinence my own first and most vital aim. As for the group therapy, I was prepared to accept that the older members had had to make themselves essential to their groups and the groups essential to themselves. If I was going to avail myself of the same means that they had found necessary and successful, it followed that I must attempt what they did. Group therapy to me does not merely mean coming together at stated times for formal meetings. These meetings are important for many reasons and as the visible sign of coherence. The equally valuable, though invisible, sign is keeping the closest possible touch with the members of the group even when they are not in actual physical contact. That can be done by constantly thinking about the group, working for it, praying for it; keeping it in mind as much as possible. Reality consisted in recognizing that my alcoholic life must be cut down to a size I could hope to deal with. My disposition was such that if I continued to think of abstinence in terms of months or years, I would be pretty certain that nothing would be done. So I adopted the A.A. suggestion of living my life in periods of twenty-four hours at a time. Today, the only day in reality that I ever have at my disposal. From the beginning, I slowly advanced to being content to accomplish only what of the rest of my life I could fit into Today. That again required further realism to determine which things were of the most immediate importance to be done Today. But my primary reality will always remain concentrated on not taking one single drink Today. Finally, the program of recovery, contained in the following Twelve Steps: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and practice these principles in all our affairs. These steps seem strong meat for reforming alcoholics. It helped me greatly to remember that this program was not some optimistic chart for super-saints. It was based on the actual experience of human beings, alcoholics like myself. They were not impossibly idealistic steps; they had all been attempted by others successfully. It is sometimes said that all the steps are spiritual except the first. For me, the first step is also essentially spiritual. I could admit in words to myself that I was powerless over alcohol, but where would that take me unless that admission embraced not only the actual wording but also what was implicit in it? No, taking that step was a declaration to myself that because I sincerely wanted to recover, I was fully resolved to try to live out the way of life suggested in the following eleven steps. The second step, too, called for determination. Here I could no longer avoid my spiritual life. I had to subdue my pride and acknowledge that a greater Power, God, was in complete control of my life. I had to strive to make God a daily living reality in my life, not a pious Sunday morning superstition. The third step was perhaps the hardest, relinquishing control and guidance of my life to God. But in the measure of the success I attained here would lie the measure of success I would meet with in continued sobriety, happiness and peace of mind. The fourth step was akin to our general confession. For me, that moral inventory was not a moral mudrake but a serious effort to find out about myself, to find what things stood in the way of my carrying out the third step. The fourth step taught me self-knowledge. We take an inventory of ourselves; we do not attempt to beat our neighbor’s breast. The fifth was only a practical application of the truism that confession is good for the soul. This and the next few following steps contain no great difficulty for the alcoholic who is sincere in his acceptance of the third. The tenth was our nightly examination of conscience with the added obligation of owing up to human beings when we were frankly wrong. The eleventh was a guide to our carrying out the third. The sting of the steps is contained in the tail of the Twelfth, that part which suggests we carry out the foregoing principles in all our affairs. Many may be willing enough to practice them in their alcoholic affairs. The older members had found out that this would not be enough to ensure happiness and a good conscience. This part of the steps is that which binds ‘them all together. It cannot be ignored with safety. It always remains important that we remember why we joined A.A. It was to recover our own sobriety for our own sakes; not to preach to the unconverted. That must remain our primary goal. We cannot afford to forget our previously helplessness when friends talk prettily of our apostolic mission. Charity begins at home. Since A.A. has been operating there for longer and on a very much greater scale, the Church in America has had more opportunity to assess its work and direction. An extract from a letter received here from the Chancellor of a very large archdiocese will give some idea of the impression made. "The Bishops of our country up to now have not taken any official stand on A.A. The movement has not been condemned; the movement has not been officially approved. Personally I am convinced that the A.A. movement is the most sound and the most successful approach that has ever been made in our country to the problem of the alcoholic. In my archdiocese, I am under the impression that about one-half of its members at one time were Catholics. The Twelve Steps appeal to me as being entirely in harmony with the Catholic faith and morals, as being clearly stated religious and moral principles in language which is simple and easily understood. Honesty to oneself, humility, contrition, purpose of amendment, unburdening one’s soul and accusing one’s self of failing to another person, placing one’s hope and confidence in God, making restitution, relying upon prayer and meditation, spiritual reading, seem to me to be sound and solid principles necessary for rehabilitation. The apostolic step to carry the message to alcoholics and to help others to rehabilitate themselves ‘is also in conformity with Christian teaching and seems to be psychologically of utmost importance. Cases have come to my attention of priests who were victims of alcoholism being re-instated through A.A. A large number of lukewarm and indifferent Catholics have returned to an active practice of their faith; and strange as it may seem, several instances are known of non-Catholics who have been brought to the Catholic faith through the A.A. movement... The Chancery has been very solicitous to avoid giving the impression that the archdiocese was trying to take over the A.A. movement or trying to interfere in either the organization or activities of the Group." It may sound ungracious to stress the importance of that last sentence, considering that A.A. is looking for all the help the Church can give. But one of the biggest attractions to the prospective member is that he is joining a society of alcoholics run and controlled in every way by alcoholics. Any suggestion that the group was in someway controlled or unduly influenced by an outside "partisan" body, however benevolently disposed, would be bad news for the unity of the members. We seem to be forced into the ungenerous position of having to say to our outside helpers: "Please do all you can for us; but stay in your corner until we want you." In truth, we are only guided by our experience, which is that one alcoholic is the best ambassador to another. We speak the same language, a language that cannot be entirely understood by even the most sympathetic of our friends who is not himself an alcoholic. What we ask from priests who have a will to help us is that they will be content with steering alcoholics towards us and that they will be willing to stand aside when they have done so; that they will, even though perhaps with every conscious effort, try to understand that the alcoholic is not, in his present condition at least, a deliberate sinner but a very sick person requiring experienced treatment; and that they will examine our successes rather than our failures, for our successes are being gained in a field considered hopeless until recently. And we ask them, too, not to look on us as rivals to any temperance movement already sponsored by them. We are not in competition with anyone or anything. A.A. is not a charitable society in the sense that it engages to supply its members with loans of money, employment or even clothes for which it has no further personal use. It is a charitable society in the meaning of Christ’s teaching. We ask for nothing material for ourselves personally or as groups. We do ask for charity for the sick alcoholic; sympathy for his problem; understanding of his condition and a willingness to advise him to seek recovery where so many thousands have already found it. A.A. is in no way a substitute for the Sacraments"; it has proved to be in most cases of Catholic alcoholics a positive urge towards them. It is with confidence then that we ask for the good will of the readers of The Furrow and for their prayers - that those of us who have recovered may maintain our sobriety and that the Grace of God may bring our members and their families that happiness which is the end of man. A Member C/o The Country Shop, 23 St. Stephen’s Green, Dublin. March 1972 The Vatican and Alcoholics Anonymous. A Dublin member of Alcoholics Anonymous, 23 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2, writes: Archbishop Enrici, Apostolic Nuncio to Great Britain, came to, and spoke at the recent European Convention of A.A. held at Bristol at the end of September last. Afterwards he made the suggestion that, as he believed little was known at the Vatican about A.A. and its suggested way of recovery, a visit from a couple of its members might be of great value to both parties. Accordingly, in January of this year, an English Catholic member and I departed for Rome and remained for a fortnight. Our only contact, up to the time of our arrival there, was through the Bishop of Clifton, the very recently appointed rector of the English College. But through his generous guidance we obtained a list of those he thought we should try to contact. And through the kindness of the Irish mother superior of the Poor Servants of the Mother of God at Mater Dei Convent (they have a sister house in Raheny, Dublin), we were lent the services of an Italian-speaking nun to help us to effect the necessary approaches by telephone. We acknowledge with deep gratitude that all of them, very willingly and at very short notice, agreed to make the appointments which enabled us to carry out the program given briefly as follows: Talks given to the students and staff of the English, Irish, Beda, Scottish and North American Colleges. Reception by Mgr. Uylenbroek, Secretary of the Council of the Laity. Reception by Cardinal John Joseph Wright, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Clergy. Reception by the Superior General of the Society of Jesus, Very Rev. Father Arrupe, S.J. Reception by the Servants of the Paraclete. On January 19, we had the supreme honour of being received by His Holiness Pope Paul in private audience. The Pope graciously greeted us not only for our own sakes, but for the work we were engaged on (i.e. Alcoholics Anonymous ), which he described as fine work, a real apostolate. He urged us to press on with our work, gave it his blessing and told us that he would keep it and us in his prayers. The granting of this private audience went far beyond our dearest dreams and was a most wonderful experience for us both. It was, too, a historic event in the thirty-six—year history of our fellowship, being the first and so far the only occasion on which a reigning pontiff has received individuals in private audience as members of Alcoholics Anonymous. The editor of The Furrow, who has always been so generous in his encouragement and active aid to A.A., has placed me more deeply in his debt than ever by inviting this short account of our embassy to Rome. It is a pleasure to inform him that reprints of an article ‘A Catholic Member’s Appreciation of Alcoholics Anonymous,’ which appeared in The Furrow of November 1953, have found a good home and an enthusiastic reception in all the departments of the Secretariat and in all the colleges we had the good fortune to visit. ----- Original Message ----- Dear John, I found this article in my documents in the archives. I dont know who send it to me as I copied it into Word. You may have even sent it. It doesn't matter as long as you get a copy. I'm going to laminate this too as it is from another source. God bless love Ron From: JOHN R. To: Ron C. Subject: Fw: The start of AA in Ireland Dear Ron, Thanks for that. I sent it to you. But I had lost the original copy. So praise God for miracles that are as modern as tomorrow (or today's technology), in that it has been retrieved. Thanks and Kind Regards, John R IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4163. . . . . . . . . . . . From Akron to the Internet From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 4:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII FROM AKRON to the INTERNET A time line of A.A. communication The ways A.A's carry the message have changed over the years. The message hasn't. 1935: Bill W. and Dr. Bob meet face to face in Akron. 1939: The Big Book is published, carrying the message in print. 1939: First public service message about the Big Book appears in a New York Times ad, "Have You an Alcoholic Problem?" 1941: NBC begins a 13-part syndicated radio program called Is Alcohol a Problem in Your Home? 1941: Saturday Evening Post publishes Jack Alexander's article about AA. 1944: The AA Grapevine begins monthly publication as AA's meeting in print. 1945: Paramount Pictures releases the movie The Lost Weekend, based on the novel by Charles Jackson. 1946: Marty Mann explains alcoholism and AA on the radio show We The People. 1947: First transatlantic telephone call is received by The Alcoholic Foundation from an Army hospital in Germany. 1948: An AA member explains principles of the program on Hi, Jinx, a morning radio show on WNBC. 1949: CBS radio broadcasts a 10 episode drama about an alcoholic who finds AA. GSO is deluged with inquiries. 1953: HAAM, an international fellowship of AA ham radio operators, is established. 1953: Art Linkletter interviews a masked woman member of AA on his TV show. 1954: The Grapevine asks for the signals of amateur radio operators who would like to communicate via the airwaves. 1956: An all-AA TV program, Mr. Hope, an actual closed meeting of masked AA members, debuts in Detroit. AA HQ in Detroit is besieged by telephone calls and letters from people wanting more information. 1956: Bill W. and Eve M. from general service are anonymous guests on the popular radio show Martha Deane on WOR. 1960: Broadcast of a radio show called Alcoholism - The Problem and the Hope, featuring Marty Mann and a GSO staff member. 1962: The Betty Furness radio program features a show on international AA. 1963: The movie Days of Wine and Roses is previewed by GSO staffers before its release. l963: WNBC begins broadcasting an AA radio program called Ask an Alcoholic. 1966: AA creates a 60-second TV spot for distribution by public information committees. 1966: Five groups in two states hold the first telephone conference-call meeting. 1970: KUAT in Tucson, AZ, launches AA-of-the-Air, a radio show for homebound AAs. 1973: David Suskind interviews 5 women AAs on his TV show. 1976: Members of AA, Al-Anon, and Alateen are interviewed on the John Gentry Radio Show on WGCH in Greenwich, CT. 1979: The 29th General Service Conference views and approves Alcoholics Anonymous - An Inside View, a 28-minute color film produced by AA. 1980s: First AA bulletin boards, online meetings, and chat rooms appear. 1986: Q-Link, one of the first online AA groups, begins meeting, growing to 200 members nationwide in two years. 1988: GSO begins compiling a list of online AA groups. 1989: ABC-TV broadcasts My Name is Bill W. 1990s: TDD (text telephone) technology helps hard-of-hearing AAs talk with other AAs. 1990: Kansas Area public information establishes AA Message of the Day, a telephone service featuring daily readings from the "Twelve and Twelve." 1990: Connecticut's public radio show, Open Air New England, puts open AA meetings on the air. 1992: Thirteen 1-hour AA meetings airing 3 times a week are broadcast on cable TV stations in Portland, OR. 1995: Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous (OIAA) is established. 2002: The Queensland Young People in AA Convention is netcast worldwide from Australia. 2002: Online AA reps meet, hoping to establish a service conference for AA in cyberspace. From the AA Grapevine with addition: 2003-2004: Today there are literally thousands of Cyberspace Recovery sites and domains, AA chats, bulletin boards and meetings, a number of which are live voice meetings regularly scheduled 24 hours around the clock, and in many languages and countries other than the US. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4164. . . . . . . . . . . . "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 7:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This play has been traveling in recent years and is now off-Broadway. Here is but one review: MY NAME IS 'BILL W.,' AND I'M A BAD PLAY By FRANK SCHECK, New York Post, March 6, 2007 Rating: 1 1/2 stars March 6, 2007 -- WHO would have guessed a drama about the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous would be the laugh riot of the year? But that's the unfortunate result of "Bill W. and Dr. Bob," the well-intentioned but haplessly executed effort written by novelist Stephen Bergman and clinical psychologist Janet Surrey that opened last night. What should have been a powerful and inspirational story plays instead like a drunken road-show version of "The Producers." The problem certainly isn't with the source material, which inspired a superb television movie years ago, "My Name is Bill W.," co-starring James Woods and James Garner. This tale of the legendary 1935 meeting between alcoholics Bill Wilson (Robert Krakovski, delivering an intense performance), a failed New York stockbroker, and Dr. Bob Smith (Patrick Husted), an Ohio surgeon, which led to the formation of one of the most influential organizations in modern history, could have been the stuff of gripping drama. Unfortunately, the production, directed by Rick Lombardo and originally presented at Boston's New Repertory Theatre, goes for a tone that seems mostly geared for laughs. The endless and repetitive drunk scenes, especially the ones involving Dr. Bob, are played with a broadness suited to W.C. Fields - witness the scene when, after operating on one of his patients while under the influence, he happily reports, "I'm OK. Patient's OK, too!" (Cue audience hilarity.) Things don't improve in the tedious dramatic scenes illustrating Wilson's strained marriage with his long-suffering wife (Rachel Harker) and the efforts made by Wilson and the newly sober Smith to spread their doctrine to a variety of initially less-than-receptive drunks (all played by Marc Carver). There are some undeniably moving moments in the show, and it's only fair to report that the audience - uncommonly large for a new off-Broadway play - responded with obvious enthusiasm. But it's hard not to wish that this important tale had been rendered in a more sober fashion. BILL W. AND DR. BOB New World Stages, 340 W. 50th St.; (212) 239-6200. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4165. . . . . . . . . . . . Another New York review of the play, "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2007 7:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Reviews Mar 6, 2007 New York Bill W. and Dr. Bob Reviewed By: David Finkle Robert Krakovski and Patrick Husted in Bill W. and Dr. Bob
(© Carol Rosegg) Robert Krakovski and Patrick Husted in Bill W. and Dr. Bob (© Carol Rosegg) "My name is Bill W., and I'm an alcoholic," confides a character standing under an isolating light at the very start of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Stephen Bergman and Janet Surrey's crudely constructed if undeniably sincere play about the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. At the performance I attended at least a third of the audience members cheerily responded "Hi, Bill" or "Hey, Bill." When immediately afterward, a second character standing in a second shock of light says, "Dr. Bob, alcoholic," the same third of the audience -- now augmented by a few bandwagon-hoppers -- responded with "Hi, Bob." If a significant portion of the ticket buyers behaved as if they were at a church-basement AA meeting, listening to a peer begin a confessional speech, in a way they were. To use support-group vernacular, the patrons were present at the ultimate qualification, or candid revelation of one's drinking history. Since people in recovery don't usually seek social niceties from their gatherings, neither are they likely to demand drama turgical niceties in a play that champions Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith, a couple of supposedly hopeless drunks who had the breakthrough understanding in 1935 that sharing humiliating experiences is what could lead chronic drinkers to forego their debilitating habit. It's probably helpful to keep in mind while watching this depiction of this story -- which for many has a weight equivalent to Moses' bringing the tablets back from Mount Sinai -- that the literature cherished by AA members often has the homogenized feel of committee writing. Even Anita Fuchs' set, which consists mostly of looming panels that travel clumsily back and forth, has the makeshift appearance of a meeting room. In a series of introductory scenes, New York stockbroker Bill Wilson (Robert Krakovski) and Ohio surgeon Bob Smith (Patrick Husted) are shown literally falling-down drunk, often trying the patience of their long-suffering wives Lois Wilson (Rachel Harker) and Anne Smith (Kathleen Doyle). Even Smith's exposure to the pre-AA Oxford Group precepts doesn't convince him to stop drinking, but it does prepare him for a desperate tete-a-tete with the now-sober Wilson, who ends up in Akron on a business trip and needs to talk to another empathizing boozer to avoid going on a bender. By the time they finish their inaugural six-hour chat at the home of local doyenne Henrietta Seiberling (Deanna Dunmyer), they've established the basic structure for every AA meeting since. As the first act ends, the pair realizes they need to confirm their theory by recruiting one more convert. In act two, they do so -- but only after encountering potential-member difficulties and dealing with resistance from their dubious wives. It reveals nothing to say they find their man. The rest is spiritual -- and spirits -- history. In keeping with the quality of the writing, director Rick Lombardo's production is rough around the edges. Some of the acting, particularly during the inebriation segments, is reminiscent of the Reefer Madness under-marijuana-influence scenes; it's histrionic, let-this-be-a-lesson-to-you stuff. On balance, Husted's Dr. Bob is more controlled than Krakovski's Bill W., while Doyle's Anne Smith is better crafted than Harker's Lois Wilson. But nuance isn't high on anyone's to-do-list, including Marc Carver and Deanna Dunmyer, who play everybody else who come in contact with the men. The promotional material for Bill W. and Dr. Bob proclaims it the "first-ever play about the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous." However, a superior 1989 teleplay, My Name is Bill W., starring James Woods and James Garner as the seminal figures, exists and is available for home viewing. Nevertheless, Bergman and Surrey's script will likely lead to future productions, especially by amateur and AA groups everywhere. The birth of Alcoholics Anonymous may not be the greatest story every told, but without question it's one of the greatest 20th-century stories -- even when it isn't told greatly. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4166. . . . . . . . . . . . The Nixon Letters (1974) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2007 10:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Nixon Letters Richard Nixon was presented with the 1 millionth copy of the Big Book. It was presented by Dr. Jack Norris. A picture of Dr. Norris presenting it to Nixon hangs on the wall at Stepping Stones. Tom Pike, an early California AA member sober since 1946 had arranged for this presentation. Tom had served as Assistant Secretary of Defense and Special Assistant to President Eisenhower. When the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) authorized by the Hughes Act was created, Tom, along with Marty Mann and others, was appointed to the NIAAA advisory committee, and when his term ended he was replaced by his wife, Katherine. During Watergate, Tom told me he had written a letter to Nixon advising him to use the 12 steps, but not because of his drinking. Both his letter to President Nixon, as well as President Nixon's reply are included below. February 1, 1974 President Richard M. Nixon The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington, DC Dear Mr. President: Your State of the Union speech delivered to Congress was easily one of the finest I've heard you deliver. And I've heard you make a lot of good ones since you took on Jerry Voorhees in 1946 out here in the old 12th C.D.! Your style, your appearance, your manner, and what you said were confident, strong, and impressive. You were every inch the leader in full command of himself and the situation. Your whole performance was one to inspire and rebuild the confidence of all who heard you, even including the Democrats. Restoring the national confidence in the President is the biggest task you have. No military, industrial, or government leader can lead without this indispensable ingredient of confidence. I remember when I was in the White House in 1956 and 1958 trying to help Eisenhower and Sherm Adams ward off impending recession and stem a rising unemployment rate, our overriding agenda item was how to restore citizens and consumer confidence and optimism. As your long time good friend and supporter, whose faith, confidence, and affection is still strong today, I would like to make a suggestion which I hope you will consider seriously. You may think me presumptuous, but as an old friend, I am willing to run that risk. First, a bit of necessary background: it has been established since time immemorial that admission of fault is good for the soul and that to err human and to forgive is divine. These are two principles found in most of the world's religions, ancient and modern. They are also used by modern psychiatrists and psychologists. Not surprisingly, because these principles are basic to the needs of man, they are also contained in the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous which you can find in Chapter 5 of the Big AA book we presented you in April of last year at the White House. These 12 Steps are forged from simple universal principles drawn from religion and medicine. They constitute a program of recovery that works! I suggest that you substitute the word, "Watergate" for "alcohol" in the first step (which would then read "admitted we were powerless over Watergate, and that our lives had become unmanageable"). Then you should conscientiously apply the rest of the 12 steps to your own situation. I am confident such a course of personal action rigorously followed, would ultimately resolve this difficult dilemma for you and the country. My prime suggestion: In whatever way you can, after carefully studying Steps 4, 5, 6, and 7, put Step 10 into action: -- "when we were wrong, promptly admitted it". I know it's late, and there are many complexities legal and otherwise, but if you could somehow publicly admit more fully the mismanagement of Watergate, I am confident that you personally and the country will experience relief, surcease, and new hope beyond your fondest expectations. (See the attached Harris Poll clip from today's Los Angeles Times on Public Compassion.) And why? Simply because the country's President and its citizens are both human and divine and have always behaved and reacted like the creatures of God which indeed they are. I believe most people know almost instinctively that to be forgiven, they must forgive, and who among us has not erred -- does not need forgiveness? By using these principles, Len Firestone and Jonathan Winters, Jim Kemper, and I have discovered the way out of the baffling personal dilemma which nearly destroyed us. You can too, Mr. President! If you would like to explore this personally and in greater depth, please call on me. Nothing would please me more. Katherine's and my fervent prayer for you and Pat is that God will make His will known to you and give you the power to carry it out. Faithfully yours, Thomas P. Pike. P.S. You demonstrated good understanding on Step 11 when you urged those attending the prayer breakfast yesterday "to try through prayer to find out what God wants America to be rather than to ask Him always to see that what we believe America to be prevails." Step 11: "Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, seeking only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry it out." T.P.P. - - - - POLL FIND COMPASSION FOR NIXON Chicago (UPI) -- Watergate developments have damaged President Nixon's public esteem but they also are evoking a sense of public compassion, according to the latest survey by pollster Louis Harris. This was the conclusion drawn when 56% of those queried agreed with a statement that the President is "trying to do his best in an almost impossible job." Only 38% disagreed. - - - - THE WHITE HOUSE Washington February 25, 1974 Dear Tom: Before another day passes, I wanted you to know that I received your very thoughtful letter of February 1. Many times in the past I have had occasion to thank you, but I must say once again how much it means to know I have been able to count on the loyalty and understanding of so many long-time friends. I deeply appreciate your suggestions and the genuine spirit of concern and goodwill in which they were made. As you know, in several televised press conferences I accepted responsibility along the lines you discussed. Further, on a number of occasions I have pledged my full cooperation to the Special Prosecutor and to the Judiciary Committee so that the investigations can be concluded, the guilty parties brought to justice, and those innocent of any wrongdoing may be cleared and, hopefully, have their good names and reputations restored. However, I have also stated that I will follow the precedent set by every other United States President of never doing anything that weakens the Office of the President or impairs the ability of future Presidents to make the great decisions that are so essential to this Nation and to the world. This has been a difficult period not only for me but for all Americans, and when this and related matters are brought to a full and just resolution, I am confident the majority of the American people will come to understand that the trust they placed in me has not been violated. In the meanwhile, it is a source of constant reassurance to me to have the support of friends like Katherine and you and to be included in your prayers. Pat joins me in sending you both our warmest personal regards. Sincerely, RN Mr. Thomas P. Pike 611 West Sixth Street Los Angeles, California 90017. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4167. . . . . . . . . . . . Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2007 1:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The two most important pieces of legislation about alcoholism in the United States were the Prohibition Amendment and the Hughes Act. The first ended up being widely regarded as a failure.* The second was not only a success, it still lies at the base of some of the most effective help being given to American alcoholics even today, over thirty-five years later. Most modern American alcoholism treatment facilities, along with the kind of alcoholism counselors whom they use and sometimes a significant part of their funding, are based on the provisions of the Hughes Act. The Hughes Act was put on the legislative agenda in the U.S. Congress by Senator Harold Hughes from Iowa, who had served a series of terms as governor of Iowa before being elected to the U.S. Senate, in spite of admitting openly that he was a recovered alcoholic. Following the precedent set by Mrs. Marty Mann, he and Tom Pike and other major political figures freely acknowledged their alcoholism in public, but made no mention of their membership in A.A. except in private. In private of course, we can see Tom Pike not only mentioning his A.A. membership to President Nixon, but preaching the twelve steps to the president in this fascinating letter that Bill Lash has found. Of special interest to us in this group: Nancy Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, was another of the key political figures during the period when the Hughes Act was being passed and implemented (1970-1980). She was the senatorial aide whom Senator Hughes assigned to do whatever had to been done in order to get the legislation passed. On many occasions, Nancy also played a key role in coordinating the efforts of the many other A.A. members in Washington D.C. and elsewhere who were involved in gaining passage of the bill. President Nixon was one of the Washington figures who opposed the Hughes Act. For a long time after its passage, he refused to sign it, which would have been the equivalent of vetoing it. Tom Pike, whom Nixon regarded as a good friend and staunch supporter, was one of the influential A.A. people who kept up the pressure on Nixon in their private contacts with him until he finally grudgingly put his signature on the bill. Part of the problem was that Hughes and some of his supporters were Democrats. Pike, as a devoted Republican, was able to add his voice in support of the Hughes Act and raise the issue above the partisan level. For a full account of the enactment and implementation of the Hughes Act, see Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism. http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html ______________________________ *During the Prohibition Era, the number of people in the United States who died of cirrhosis of the liver and other strongly alcohol related diseases underwent a slight but nevertheless significant and measurable decline. On that ground, it could be regarded as a public health success. The two problems were that (1) it did nothing effective to prevent true hardcore chronic alcoholics from obtaining alcohol. It was not a solution at all to the problem of alcoholism. Real alcoholics obtained easily available illegal alcohol or brewed or fermented their own alcoholic beverages. And (2) the rise of criminal associations for importing or making illegal alcohol produced murder, violence, and lawbreaking on a scale which the government could not deal with effectively. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4168. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2007 7:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The hyperbole associated with the Section Mexico situation is no less extreme than that of the German situation. The paragraph below, by a Section Mexico member named Alberto P, is an example. It speaks volumes and is posted on the web site containing a copy of the Mexican copyright document being portrayed as a deception on the part of Wayne P. (From the web site): "[editor's note: In Mexico, one trusted servant and long time AA member, who served more than 2000 AA groups was sentenced for one year of prison, because of alleged copyright violation on August 4th 1995. This was possible because in 1992 AAWS had registered the book in Mexico as sole copyright owner. The registration states, that Wgne (sic) P___ is the author of the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" and the English-Spanish translator is Jose A L G___. It seems to be a common pattern, that AAWS employs lies, falsified evidence and wrong allegations to stop the AA message from being carried and maintain a monopoly.]" The statement gives the impression that someone was jailed for a year. But later the web site states: "The sentence was to put the accused (an alcoholic Trustee) in jail for one year. This light sentence can be paid through a fine of five thousand New Pesos (about $850.00). This fine has already been paid, and the Trustee won't have to go to jail." I'll come back to Alberto P's statement at the end of this reply. An anomaly in a document does not constitute a conspiracy, a lie or illegality. The claim of Wayne P deceptively portraying himself as having written the book is irresponsible. Fair-minded people can arrive at much different conclusions rather than echoing baseless charges. The legal (not dictionary) term "author" can, in many instances, be anyone who holds copyright ownership to a work whether they actually wrote it or not. The information below is from the Cornell University web site regarding sections of the US Code (Federal laws) applying to copyright ownership: Initial Ownership: Copyright in a work protected under this title vests initially in the author or authors of the work. The authors of a joint work are co-owners of copyright in the work. Works Made for Hire: In the case of a work made for hire, the employer or other person for whom the work was prepared is considered the author for purposes of this title, and, unless the parties have expressly agreed otherwise in a written instrument signed by them, owns all of the rights comprised in the copyright. Transfer of Ownership: (1) The ownership of a copyright may be transferred in whole or in part by any means of conveyance or by operation of law, and may be bequeathed by will or pass as personal property by the applicable laws of intestate succession. (2) Any of the exclusive rights comprised in a copyright, including any subdivision of any of the rights specified by section 106, may be transferred as provided by clause (1) and owned separately. The owner of any particular exclusive right is entitled, to the extent of that right, to all of the protection and remedies accorded to the copyright owner by this title. On April 22, 1940, Bill W and Hank P transferred ownership of all their interests in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" to the Alcoholic Foundation. The transfer included Bill's initial copyright ownership filed in April 1939. The Alcoholic Foundation was later renamed to the "General Service Board of AA" and their subsidiary corporate publishing arm, initially known as "Works Publishing Inc," later became "AA Publishing Inc" and later still became "AA World Services (AAWS) Inc." They hold for safekeeping and manage AA's copyrights and trademarks. Given that the Big Book in question in Mexico, was the 3rd edition published in 1976 (5 years after Bill W's death) the revised story section (about 2/3 of the book) plus new preface and foreword likely put it into the category of "works made for hire" if specialists were hired to compile the new edition as is often done for publications projects. In any event, the book goes way beyond the so-called "first 164 pages" that Bill W is specifically identified with as the initial author. When a corporation holds copyright ownership, its chief (or a designated) officer typically acts in behalf of the corporation in legal matters requiring a signature or personal identity on a legal instrument. In April 1989 Wayne P became the General Manager of GSO. That also legally made him "President of AAWS, Inc." It occurred in the same year as the Mexican copyright paperwork of August 1989. In terms of putting a name down for the "author" whoever typed Wayne's name on the document could well have done so to reflect his capacity and authority as President and chief officer of AAWS (the owner of the copyright). This is probably more likely than unfairly claiming Wayne deceitfully portrayed himself as having written the book. Alberto P's statement above claims that Wayne's name appeared as "author of all [I repeat all] the literature of Alcoholics Anonymous, at the National Information Center of Copyrights of the SEP (Public Education Secretariat) in Mexico." My assumption is that Wayne's name continually appeared for all the literature because he was President and chief officer of AAWS, the legal copyright holder of all the literature being submitted for Mexican copyright protection. Arthur -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell K. Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 Subject: Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I didn't however see anyone mention that the author of the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of codified principles exist that take precedence over the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of > state and national laws and treaties having the effect of law" Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of the actual document bearing Wayne's signature. Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless one gets caught. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4169. . . . . . . . . . . . One of AA''s 1st Women From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2007 8:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For Men Only? Anonymous AA Grapevine – June 1960 One of AA's first woman members describes her pioneering struggle to gain acceptance of her sex in what was exclusively a man's world of sobriety. WHEN I attended my first AA meeting on April 11, 1939 I was the only woman alcoholic there. And I might not have been there had there not been one before me whose story I had read in the manuscript of a book called "Alcoholics Anonymous." Some weeks before, my psychiatrist had handed me a red cardboard-covered document, saying flatly that he had about given up hope of being able to help me after nearly a year of intensive treatment in the sanitarium he headed. But, he added, he had just read something that might help, and he wanted me to read it. He said little more, except to remark that this group of men (the emphasis is mine) seemed to have discovered a way out of the same trouble I had -- drinking. I took the book in trembling hands and went back to my room with a wild surge of hope lifting me up the stairs three steps at a time. As I read, the hope swelled and sank again and again. My trouble had a name: alcoholism. It was music to my ears. Alcoholism was a disease. Shame, guilt and self-condemnation rolled away like heavy fog, letting light and air into my heart again. I could breathe; I could bear to live. Alcoholism was "an 'allergy' of the body coupled with an obsession of the mind"; there was no known way of reversing the sensitivity of the body to alcohol, therefore an alcoholic could never safely drink again. This was the first reason I had ever heard that made sense to me. I could accept it. I could face a life without drinking, because I had to; there was no choice -- my body wouldn't let me. It wasn't just a question of mental aberration after all; I wasn't insane, or hopelessly neurotic; I had a disease. And thousands of other people had it, too. I wasn't the only one; I wasn't so peculiar, so different, so alone beyond the pale. I had a disease! My mind made a song of hope out of those words. Then came the let-down. This handful of men had found an answer to the "obsession of the mind" that drove them to drink against their own will, against their own desire, against not only their better judgment but against their own good. That answer was God. My hope sank. This was not for me. I couldn't use this answer. I had lost God in my teens. I had outgrown this primitive notion. I was an intellectual, a worldly, widely-travelled, well-educated once-successful woman. A woman. My hope completely disappeared. This was a man's book, entirely about men, obviously written by and for men, and a particular kind of men at that -- religious men. Well, that was that. I wasn't religious, and I wasn't a man. I'd have to find my own way out after all. I was still alone. And so I argued with the doctor, day after day and week after week, about the God business. Patiently he let me get my arrogant, infantile arguments off my chest. Firmly he would send me back to "read some more," for I was creeping through the book, dragging my feet over each arguable phrase. He had quickly answered my complaint that this was a book for men only by saying simply, "What's so different about women suffering the same illness?" But this had seemed no more satisfactory an answer to me than his careful parrying of my arguments against God. I had consigned myself to outer darkness and there I would stay, alone with my ego and my pride. Until the day came; the day the crisis in my personal life did exactly what the book had said it would. It raised the bottom to where I precariously hung, and I fell right into God's hands. Gloriously, joyously, ecstatically surrendered to complete faith in a Power greater than myself. I was free. So free that I knew I could walk out my third-story window and keep right on walking. God supported me at a level I had never dreamed was possible, and there was no prison -- neither of my own making, nor of the wood and stone that made the sanitarium, nor of gravity itself -- that could contain me. I was free! A vestige of my old suspicions sent me running to the doctor. Was I now completely mad? If so, I liked it. Sanity was never like this; I felt wonderful, happy, radiant, bursting with love and delight. The grass had never been so green, the sky so blue, people so nice and so good. The world was a divinely beautiful place . . . . I was free. "Perhaps you are," the doctor said, "for I believe you have had an authentic spiritual experience. Hold on to it, and go back and read that book!" I did, and it seemed a different book. True, it was still obviously by and for men, but it held truth for me and I gobbled it up. For the first time, I read it through to the end. And there I found, among the personal stories, one entitled "A Woman's Story." Thank You, my newly found God. I might have known You would supply everything I needed. For a while it seemed the book held everything I needed. I was reluctant to meet the people. I was too busy revelling in a state of mind I had never known: a beatific state of pure delight in living. Yet I was really a little afraid -- of what these men would be like, of how they would accept me, a woman. Would one other woman be enough? Would she like me and accept me? Would she be there if I went to meet them? Would the reality of flesh and blood spoil my ecstatic dream? Was it a dream? Weeks passed and the good doctor took matters into his own hands; he made a date for me to meet one of these men and his wife, and to go with them to a meeting in Brooklyn. I was warmly received; first names were the rule, they told me, and Mrs. M. -- Sandy -- made me feel more than welcome. We had dinner and set off for Brooklyn, to Bill and Lois's brownstone house. The first floor seemed crowded as we entered. I saw many women among the crowd, but no one looked as if they had ever had a drink. It looked like any friendly gathering in any home, with far too many strangers for my taste. I flew upstairs to leave my coat and lingered there. Lois came up and put her arm around my shoulder. "We want you down with us," she said. "You are very welcome." And she looked as if she meant it. I think I have never seen such sheer lovingness shining out of a person -- it warmed and comforted me. Lois, a non-alcoholic wife, taught me about love. But that's another story. I was made welcome, and yet -- did I notice just a flicker of uncertainty? Just a slight wariness, a kind of disbelief on the part of these men that I could really be one of them? I did, for some of their questions revealed it. I was the youngest person there, by far. And I was a woman. I was fairly well-dressed, was currently an inmate of a rather expensive private sanitarium (they didn't know I was stony broke, was there on a "scholarship" for free), and was obviously from a "good" background -- well-brought-up, well-educated, and apparently meeting the specifications for that old-fashioned label "a lady." These things are not usually associated with drunken women, even in the minds of drunken men. This I knew from my own experience. So I identified myself, and found myself telling the naked truth about my drinking as I had never been able to do even with my doctor. And I noted the small intake of breath, the widening of eyes, the retreating but still dormant suspicion in some of my questioners. But for enough of them, I made the grade. I was accepted as an authentic alcoholic, and therefore a qualified participant in the meeting. There were a number of non-wives and friends present, for this night was an occasion: the first printed and bound copy of the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" was on display. I knew I was in when I was asked to sign the copy, along with the rest. And I further knew I was in when I found myself talking almost exclusively to the men who were alcoholics. They so surrounded me, and asked so many questions, that I knew I was indeed a rarity -- something of an occasion myself. As soon as I decently could, I asked about the woman whose story was in the book. She was much older than I, with grown children. Her name was Florence. No one seemed to know her except Bill and Lois, for she was in Washington where one of the earliest members of the group, a man named Fitz, was trying to get something started. He was having a very rough time, for all the prospects, including Florence, kept getting drunk. I breathed a prayer of thanks that she had stayed sober long enough to write her story -- for me. Bill said that she and Fitz would be coming to New York soon, and I could meet her. There were hopes, Bill said, that the one other group, in Akron, might have a woman member soon -- they were working on one. But here in New York I had to face the fact that I was, indeed, alone. Unique. I didn't like it. I had been feeling alone and unique for far too long. At least the men here were like me. Or were they? I began to understand the faint uncertainty, the wariness, the disbelief. I began to wonder myself if this program would work for women. I could deal with their questions about my rights to the title of alcoholic -- I had qualifications to match anyone's -- but only time could deal with their unexpressed doubts as to the ability of a woman to live their program successfully. And only time did the job. The first year was the hardest. I had plenty of prospects but few results. All that long hot summer I went into New York once a week to the meeting, hoping a woman might appear, find me, know that she was not alone and unique, and stay. Florence came, and left, without any real contact being established between us -- she did not seem to want to talk. I saw her only once again, sober, and then she died on a drunk. I found it difficult to convince the older members that I wasn't a freak, the only one of my kind, and to convince the newer men that there was such a thing as a woman alcoholic and that I was one. The newer men often found it difficult to conceal their disgust at the idea, and more than once I heard, "If there's one thing I can't stand, it's to see a woman drunk!" They just couldn't believe that women couldn't help it any more than they could. Most of the men were wonderful, and fully accepted me as one of themselves, but there remained a curious loneliness, nonetheless. Finally, in October, came Nona, whom I had met when I entered the sanitarium nearly two years before. She came in wholeheartedly, a quiet girl not wanting to be noticed, but she was there. In November I went with Bill and Lois to Akron and called on the woman (drunk in bed) for whom they had had hopes, but I was no more successful than the men had been. I went on to Chicago where Sylvia lived -- Sylvia who in October had gone to Cleveland to find AA in the home of an early member, and who had returned to Chicago full of sobriety and zeal to help others. Now there were three of us the country over -- but three is a crowd. Three can be neither alone nor unique, and we were all three too different to be the same kind of a freak! We used to hold long discussions as to why it was so difficult to help women, why they couldn't stay sober, couldn't make this program work. Some of the men thought it was because women were more dishonest than men, less direct. "Sneakier" was a word they used. I had to agree that this fitted most cases and that it made my self-appointed task of getting women into AA almost impossible. But I thought I understood the reasons for this -- and I still think they are the reasons that keep many women from success in AA. We have a double standard in our society. Many things that are acceptable, or at least forgivable, in men are not in women. Although the high pedestal on which women used to be enthroned is slowly descending to a more realistic level (and most women are duly grateful for this entry into more comfortable realms), it is doing so only in fits and starts, like a balky elevator. There are still areas of behavior that are forbidden to "nice" women, and excessive drinking is one of these. Many men who are themselves alcoholic and because of this have committed every sin the book, are inclined to look down their noses at women who have suffered the same mishaps, and for the same reason. They can't be "nice." Many non- alcoholic wives are inclined to be even more sure of this last statement, and not to want their husbands to associate with such questionable types. Women know this, of course, and the moment their drinking shows signs of being different, even slightly out of control, they instinctively go for cover, and bend all their effort to concealment. They become past masters at deception, at hiding their condition and the cause of it -- their bottles. Their opportunities are great if they are housewives, as many of them are. They are alone and in command of their environment for most of their waking hours. By the time their control is completely gone and they are discovered, they have built a pattern of deception that is nothing short of superb. Such a fantastic construction, built so painstakingly for so long, does not fall to pieces easily, and they have trained themselves so well to safeguard and protect it under all circumstances, even helpless drunkenness, that they often cannot relinquish this "protective coloration" even when they finally want to and know that they must if they are to live. The double standard has created another hazard for the woman seeking help in AA. Men are not supposed to care too much about "what the neighbors say" or "what will Joe think of you," but women most definitely are. Girls are brought up to consider other peoples' opinions of them, first and foremost. When a woman starts drinking too much, and then uncontrolledly, this becomes a prime bugaboo that haunts her sober moments. Unfortunately, the name Alcoholics Anonymous is frequently all mixed up in her already mixed-up thoughts with the total unacceptability of alcoholism, alcoholics, and everything to do with both, to most of the people she knows and whose opinions of her she has been taught to value above all else. How can she fly in the face of all she holds most dear, and pin this taboo label on herself? Better to hide in the bowels of the earth, or the bottom of a bottle. Finally, there are the misconceptions of an earlier more prudish day, when only "loose women" were supposed to drink; ergo, women who drank were "loose women," and if they drank badly, they were "lost women." The scarlet letter has hung like a terrible barrier in front of many women who desperately needed what AA had to offer them. And I may add that the scarlet letter has been pinned on many innocent alcoholics -- whose only sins (?) were those of alcoholism -- by self-righteous or fearful nonalcoholic women -- and men, too. Man's inhumanity to man might better read "women's inhumanity to women" particularly in the smaller communities of our enlightened country. These, I think, are some of the valid reasons why the growth of the number of women in AA was painfully slow at first, and even now is amazingly greater in the big cities than in even their own suburbs, let alone smaller towns. Yet growth there has been, and a commensurate change in attitude both within and outside of AA. For women have recovered and gone back to their own close little societies to talk about it, to teach them to know better, to let their own stories be known in the hope that they might reach into some other room, secluded and well-hidden as their own once was. Women who have embraced AA have found the God-given courage to face their whispering accusers, and to face them down; to hold on to their sobriety and to build from it a good life, open to the most critical inspection; to accept new values that do not give weight to "what the neighbors think -- or say"; and to rely on their own conscience in communion with their own God as they understand Him, for judgment of their worth. All this is not easy. I think it must be said that because of cultural and environmental patterns which are beyond her control, it is not yet the same for a woman to have alcoholism as it is for a man. It is much, much more difficult, and the chances of finding help and achieving recovery are undeniably less. Yet there has been improvement over the past twenty years, and I believe that the situation will become progressively better as alcoholism is more widely accepted for the disease that it is, and the unfair stigma gradually disappears. Public acceptance will one day bring about the cultural and environmental changes that are beginning to be evident. The double standard has no place in the realm of illness, and never did have. Once alcoholism is firmly esconced in that realm, much of the old prejudice against women alcoholics will die a natural death. But it is a long, slow process. Five years after I came into AA, in the spring of 1944, the several large AA groups in Pittsburgh asked me down to speak at a public meeting. They told me outright that they wanted to show Pittsburgh that there was such a thing as a woman alcoholic, and that she could recover. Still, it was many months after that before they got their first woman member. Groups have written me from all over the country to say that after four and five years of intense activity and growth, they had yet to have a woman member; I have made countless trips and many speeches to show myself and give evidence of the possibility. This was a major reason why I temporarily gave up my doubly precious anonymity (being a woman and therefore vulnerable to scarlet letters and a host of other unpleasant things) when I entered public work in this field. No one was ever happier to resume that protective cloak after two years of both veiled and crass remarks and looks. It takes great faith and plenty of sheer strength to be an avowed woman alcoholic. I am both humbled and proud of my sex as I see the growing numbers who dare -- for the sake of all those others still undeclared, still suffering the tortures of the damned, alone. Things move. During the late 1940s I had many letters from lone woman members, seeking comfort, company, and advice on how to find and bring in others. Then in the 1950s I began to be asked to come and speak at luncheons and dinners of just AA women. I thought the corner had been turned, that no one could ever again imagine AA was "for men only." Imagine my shock and horror when in December 1959, twenty years and eight months after my solo landing in AA, a woman member in a great mid- western city I was visiting told me of several AA groups in the city who would not receive women as members -- stated flatly that they did not want women in their groups. Several men with us corroborated her story, adding, before I could catch my breath, that it didn't matter so much in a big city like theirs where there were plenty of other groups a woman could go to, but what bothered them was the fact that this was true in many small cities and towns where there was only one group, so that in effect this meant denying AA to women alcoholics. I could hardly believe my ears, but the people who told me this were not erratic, newly sober alcoholics, but longtime members who know their area well and traverse it frequently. If this is so, in the mid-west, it may very well be so in many parts of our vast country, especially in sparsely settled areas with only small towns. There obviously remains much to be done. After twenty years, women coming into AA are still pioneers. Those who make statistical studies claim that there is only one woman alcoholic for every five-and-a-half men. The records of public outpatient clinics seem to bear out this figure. But there are many physicians in private practice, where a confidence is considered as sacred as in the confessional, who state categorically the women alcoholics outnumber the men in their practice. Certainly in the big cities, one often finds the women outnumbering the men at closed meetings. Is it just that women alcoholics more readily find their way to the anonymity of the big cities? Or are there more of us than even we think? Once again, only time will tell us. But I hope and pray it won't have to be another twenty years for all those out there alone. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4170. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: From Akron to the Internet From: Mary Latowski . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2007 8:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill, this is very interesting but I was wondering if you think Loners International and World Hello might also be included? Mary Pat South Bend On 3/7/07, Bill Lash wrote: > > FROM AKRON to the INTERNET > A time line of A.A. communication > The ways A.A's carry the message have changed over the years. The message > hasn't. > > 1935: Bill W. and Dr. Bob meet face to face in Akron. > 1939: The Big Book is published, carrying the message in print. > 1939: First public service message about the Big Book appears in a New > York > Times ad, "Have You an Alcoholic Problem?" > 1941: NBC begins a 13-part syndicated radio program called Is Alcohol a > Problem in Your Home? > 1941: Saturday Evening Post publishes Jack Alexander's article about AA. > 1944: The AA Grapevine begins monthly publication as AA's meeting in > print. > 1945: Paramount Pictures releases the movie The Lost Weekend, based on the > novel by Charles Jackson. > 1946: Marty Mann explains alcoholism and AA on the radio show We The > People. > 1947: First transatlantic telephone call is received by The Alcoholic > Foundation from an Army hospital in Germany. > 1948: An AA member explains principles of the program on Hi, Jinx, a > morning > radio show on WNBC. > 1949: CBS radio broadcasts a 10 episode drama about an alcoholic who finds > AA. GSO is deluged with inquiries. > 1953: HAAM, an international fellowship of AA ham radio operators, is > established. > 1953: Art Linkletter interviews a masked woman member of AA on his TV > show. > 1954: The Grapevine asks for the signals of amateur radio operators who > would like to communicate via the airwaves. > 1956: An all-AA TV program, Mr. Hope, an actual closed meeting of masked > AA > members, debuts in Detroit. AA HQ in Detroit is besieged by telephone > calls > and letters from people wanting more information. > 1956: Bill W. and Eve M. from general service are anonymous guests on the > popular radio show Martha Deane on WOR. > 1960: Broadcast of a radio show called Alcoholism - The Problem and the > Hope, featuring Marty Mann and a GSO staff member. > 1962: The Betty Furness radio program features a show on international AA. > 1963: The movie Days of Wine and Roses is previewed by GSO staffers before > its release. > l963: WNBC begins broadcasting an AA radio program called Ask an > Alcoholic. > 1966: AA creates a 60-second TV spot for distribution by public > information > committees. > 1966: Five groups in two states hold the first telephone conference-call > meeting. > 1970: KUAT in Tucson, AZ, launches AA-of-the-Air, a radio show for > homebound > AAs. > 1973: David Suskind interviews 5 women AAs on his TV show. > 1976: Members of AA, Al-Anon, and Alateen are interviewed on the John > Gentry > Radio Show on WGCH in Greenwich, CT. > 1979: The 29th General Service Conference views and approves Alcoholics > Anonymous - An Inside View, a 28-minute color film produced by AA. > 1980s: First AA bulletin boards, online meetings, and chat rooms appear. > 1986: Q-Link, one of the first online AA groups, begins meeting, growing > to > 200 members nationwide in two years. > 1988: GSO begins compiling a list of online AA groups. > 1989: ABC-TV broadcasts My Name is Bill W. 1990s: TDD (text telephone) > technology helps hard-of-hearing AAs talk with other AAs. > 1990: Kansas Area public information establishes AA Message of the Day, a > telephone service featuring daily readings from the "Twelve and Twelve." > 1990: Connecticut's public radio show, Open Air New England, puts open AA > meetings on the air. > 1992: Thirteen 1-hour AA meetings airing 3 times a week are broadcast on > cable TV stations in Portland, OR. > 1995: Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous (OIAA) is established. > 2002: The Queensland Young People in AA Convention is netcast worldwide > from > Australia. > 2002: Online AA reps meet, hoping to establish a service conference for AA > in cyberspace. > > From the AA Grapevine with addition: > 2003-2004: Today there are literally thousands of Cyberspace Recovery > sites > and domains, AA chats, bulletin boards and meetings, a number of which are > live voice meetings regularly scheduled 24 hours around the clock, and in > many languages and countries other than the US. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4171. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2007 12:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Many times throughout the show Dr.Bob callled out to Bill with the name "Abercrombie." Was this a nick name of Bill's or was this plain garble? I first saw a prelude in Akron last year at Founders Day weekend by the Gatehouse. They were advertising its opening coming up this year. On opening night Coffee was served in the aisles. On the 7th it was stopped permanently. I was at the show and thought it was a well- rounded little show with a good reflection of AA history with slight overacting. I doubt if any non-AA would appreciate this performance or be able to give a favorable review. Any AA would find it warming. Most were talking favorably after. Opinion of course. Steve G in NJ - - - - Note from the moderator: Dr. Bob liked to give people strange nicknames. He sometimes called James D. (J. D.) Holmes by that nickname "Abercrombie." J. D. said he was the tenth person to get sober in A.A. -- counting Bill W. and Dr. Bob as A.A. Number One and Number Two. J. D. was the founder of the first A.A. group in Indiana http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html In his memoirs, J. D. says (of Dr. Bob): "He was great on slang. He used to call me 'Abercrombie.' Why, I don't know. He'd call up and say, 'Bring your frail over,' meaning my wife. He had a peculiar vocabulary, but a wonderful one. He was an educated man, but some of his slang you didn't hear the ordinary person use." I've heard that Dr. Bob sometimes called Bill W. "Willy." But did he ever call him "Abercrombie"? What do our experts in the group say on that? Glenn C., South Bend IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4172. . . . . . . . . . . . Proxy battle in Akron From: Gallery Photography . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2007 2:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do any of you know more details about the Proxy battle Bill W. lost, in Akron, just prior to meeting Doctor Bob? I've also looked up information on just what a proxy battle is. I think I understand but it would help if I had more specific information on how and what the fight is about. If I understand it correctly, Bill was like some "middle man" fighting between company and stockholders as a substitute for them fighting each other directly. Well, who was he fighting and what was he fighting for? Hope you can help me understand this better. Thanks. Rotax Steve IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4173. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? From: Gallery Photography . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2007 2:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there any historical information of amends made to Bill W. from Ebby T.? If so, do any of you have a brief summary or can direct me to any books? (particularly page numbers) Thanks. Rotax Steve Nangi namaj perez IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4174. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history in Great Britain From: ROGER WHEATLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2007 7:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The GB GSO has recently moved to new space at 10 Toft Green, York, England. There is an abundance of archives and a growing interest in that country. They will soon be on display in a room at the new office space for visitors to view similar to the GSO archives in New York. Over the past few years, parts of these archives have been displayed throughout the countries of England, Scotland, and Wales in Archives "Road Shows". The growing interest in archive work led to last years General Service Conference approving a pamphlet on the subject and this years conference will consider the draft of a guideline for archivists. Roger W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4175. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Proxy battle in Akron From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2007 3:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No. Bill was representing a group of stockholders who wanted to take over management of the Akron company. In a proxy fight an individual obtains "proxies," a document which constitutes legal permission to vote for the stockholder who supplied the proxy. A prospective management group contacts stockholders with large voting blocks of stock, and asks those stockholders for their proxies. Stockholders elect the board of directors for a corporation. The board of directors selects the officers of the company, such as president, vice-president, treasurer. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4176. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2007 4:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To add to the commentary on prohibition: The 18th amendment to the US Constitution, prohibiting alcohol, was ratified on January 16, 1919. On October 28 of that year, Congress passed the Volstead (or National Prohibition) Act over President Wilson’s veto. Terms such as “bootlegger” “speakeasy” and “bathtub gin” entered the national vocabulary. As a physician, Dr Bob could obtain distilled alcohol "for medicinal purposes" with virtually no effort. Prior to repealing the 18th amendment, beer was legalized and Dr. Bob writes about it ("the beer experiment") in his story. Bill also wrote in his story about the concoctions he made in his home ("Bathtub gin, two bottles a day, and often three, got to be routine"). On December 5, 1933, the 21st amendment to the US Constitution was ratified repealing the 18th amendment. The almost decade and a half prohibition of alcohol was widely disregarded and yielded fortunes for organized crime in bootlegging and smuggling. Both Bill W and Dr Bob did some of the worst of their drinking at a time when alcohol was illegal in the US. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:45 PM To: AAHistoryLovers group Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act The two most important pieces of legislation about alcoholism in the United States were the Prohibition Amendment and the Hughes Act. The first ended up being widely regarded as a failure.* The second was not only a success, it still lies at the base of some of the most effective help being given to American alcoholics even today, over thirty-five years later. Most modern American alcoholism treatment facilities, along with the kind of alcoholism counselors whom they use and sometimes a significant part of their funding, are based on the provisions of the Hughes Act. The Hughes Act was put on the legislative agenda in the U.S. Congress by Senator Harold Hughes from Iowa, who had served a series of terms as governor of Iowa before being elected to the U.S. Senate, in spite of admitting openly that he was a recovered alcoholic. Following the precedent set by Mrs. Marty Mann, he and Tom Pike and other major political figures freely acknowledged their alcoholism in public, but made no mention of their membership in A.A. except in private. In private of course, we can see Tom Pike not only mentioning his A.A. membership to President Nixon, but preaching the twelve steps to the president in this fascinating letter that Bill Lash has found. Of special interest to us in this group: Nancy Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, was another of the key political figures during the period when the Hughes Act was being passed and implemented (1970-1980). She was the senatorial aide whom Senator Hughes assigned to do whatever had to been done in order to get the legislation passed. On many occasions, Nancy also played a key role in coordinating the efforts of the many other A.A. members in Washington D.C. and elsewhere who were involved in gaining passage of the bill. President Nixon was one of the Washington figures who opposed the Hughes Act. For a long time after its passage, he refused to sign it, which would have been the equivalent of vetoing it. Tom Pike, whom Nixon regarded as a good friend and staunch supporter, was one of the influential A.A. people who kept up the pressure on Nixon in their private contacts with him until he finally grudgingly put his signature on the bill. Part of the problem was that Hughes and some of his supporters were Democrats. Pike, as a devoted Republican, was able to add his voice in support of the Hughes Act and raise the issue above the partisan level. For a full account of the enactment and implementation of the Hughes Act, see Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism. http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html ______________________________ *During the Prohibition Era, the number of people in the United States who died of cirrhosis of the liver and other strongly alcohol related diseases underwent a slight but nevertheless significant and measurable decline. On that ground, it could be regarded as a public health success. The two problems were that (1) it did nothing effective to prevent true hardcore chronic alcoholics from obtaining alcohol. It was not a solution at all to the problem of alcoholism. Real alcoholics obtained easily available illegal alcohol or brewed or fermented their own alcoholic beverages. And (2) the rise of criminal associations for importing or making illegal alcohol produced murder, violence, and lawbreaking on a scale which the government could not deal with effectively. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4177. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Proxy battle in Akron From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2007 7:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The proxy battle Bill lost in Akron was for control of National Rubber Machinery (NRM), a small manufacturer of machine tools for the tire industry. He lost out to a group headed by a fellow named Nils Florman, who was soon ousted from the company after a few years. Either then or a short time later, a very able man named Paul Frank took over the company and ran it successfully for about 25 years. He was highly regarded in Akron and was also an influential member of St. Paul's Episcopal Church, which was pastored by Rev. Walter Tunks (the man Bill called seeking contact with an alcoholic). I interviewed Mr. Frank at his beautiful home in 1980. He was 86 at the time. NRM had been made up of four companies brought together in 1928. But they had never been able to realize the benefits of consolidation and the company was in serious trouble by 1935, which made it a candidate for a takeover. At that time, there were 113,000 shares of NRM stock outstanding, and it had a market value of about $1 per share. Thus the company could have been acquired for $113,000, but with the price so depressed, shareholders were unwilling to sell. They were interested in seeing a management change, however, and Florman's group evidently made a better case than Bill and his partners. Had Bill succeeded in the fight and been named president of the company, he would have been paid a salary of about $14,000 per year---a handsome income in 1935. I doubt that he would have been thinking about calling on another alcoholic while facing the problems of running a business. (My personal opinion is that Bill could have run NRM very well.) T. Henry Williams, who with his wife Clarace hosted the first group of alcoholics in Akron, lost his job with NRM as a result of the proxy battle. He later became a principal in the McNeil company, which was an NRM competitor in manufacturing tire processing machines. Both NRM and McNeil went through many changes, but today they are joined as one company! And that completes today's lesson about the tire manufacturing business and its effect on AA's origins. Mel Barger Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: Gallery Photography To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 3:17 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Proxy battle in Akron Do any of you know more details about the Proxy battle Bill W. lost, in Akron, just prior to meeting Doctor Bob? I've also looked up information on just what a proxy battle is. I think I understand but it would help if I had more specific information on how and what the fight is about. If I understand it correctly, Bill was like some "middle man" fighting between company and stockholders as a substitute for them fighting each other directly. Well, who was he fighting and what was he fighting for? Hope you can help me understand this better. Thanks. Rotax Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4178. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History Buffs From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2007 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is worth reminding those who read AA History Lovers: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorylovers/ that the original AA History Buffs forum is available: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/ Nancy Olson moderated it from 2000 through 2002. The move from AAHstoryBuffs to AAHistoryLovers was necessary because a technical glitch made it impossible to add new members to the original Yahoo! group. Nancy copied the significant posts (but not all of the discussions) from Buffs into Lovers when she started it as a replacement. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4179. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2007 8:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there any information as to why Ebby needed to make amends to Bill? > Is there any historical information of amends > made to Bill W. from Ebby T.? > > If so, do any of you have a brief summary or > can direct me to any books? (particularly page > numbers) > > Thanks. > > Rotax Steve > Nangi namaj perez > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4180. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Prohibition From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2007 10:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Alcohol and drinking were never "illegal" under federal law. The purchase or use of intoxicating liquors was never proscribed by the 18th Amendment or Volstead Act. Those laws prohibited the manufacture, transportation or sale of intoxicating liquors. Bob and Bill could drink and buy liquor without fear of legal penalties during the Prohibition period. When you see old movies of a "raid" by Treasury agents, you won't see the agents arresting the drinkers. They just close the joint and impound the hootch. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4181. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) From: Frank E. Nyikos . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2007 3:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Would be interested in ordering Share magazine, but living in a small rural community, do not have access to convert dollars so as to send pounds - Would appreciate further info and/or email address to find out how this could be done. "Frank E. Nyikos" (fenyikos at hoosierlink.net) ----- Original Message ----- From: "jenny andrews" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 5:35 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: AA history in Great Britain > Share magazine - the British counterpart of > Grapevine - has produced a book called Share > and Share Alike to mark the 60th anniversary > of AA's foundation in Britain (England, > Scotland and Wales) on 31 March 1947. It > contains stories from each of the past six > decades of Share and its predecessor the AA > Newsletter. The book also includes information > about the British Fellowship's history. The > price is £4.75 sterling (inc p+p), checks > etc. payable to 'General Service Office'. > > Send orders to: > > Share and Share Alike, > PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green, > York YO1 7NJ UK. > > Laurie A., > Editor, Share > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4182. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Abercrombie and "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play From: Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2007 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Abercrombie and Fitch was a big "casual luxury" clothing retailer in the 1930's, .... very common to see folks on the golf greens wearing it so it might have been a moniker insinuating someone was a social climber (predate yuppie), but in a fun way, on their way up the sobriety social scale.......a joking reminder not to forget where they came from...... Rob - - - - Stephen Gentile wrote: Many times throughout the show Dr.Bob callled out to Bill with the name "Abercrombie." Was this a nick name of Bill's or was this plain garble? Steve G in NJ - - - - Note from the moderator: Dr. Bob liked to give people strange nicknames. He sometimes called James D. (J. D.) Holmes by that nickname "Abercrombie." J. D. said he was the tenth person to get sober in A.A. -- counting Bill W. and Dr. Bob as A.A. Number One and Number Two. J. D. was the founder of the first A.A. group in Indiana http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html In his memoirs, J. D. says (of Dr. Bob): "He was great on slang. He used to call me 'Abercrombie.' Why, I don't know. He'd call up and say, 'Bring your frail over,' meaning my wife. He had a peculiar vocabulary, but a wonderful one. He was an educated man, but some of his slang you didn't hear the ordinary person use." I've heard that Dr. Bob sometimes called Bill W. "Willy." But did he ever call him "Abercrombie"? What do our experts in the group say on that? Glenn C., South Bend IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4183. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Prohibition From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2007 12:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John I beg to differ with your interpretation of the Volstead or National Prohibition Act - it did in fact include provisions limiting the alcohol content of beverages and private possession and consumption. As with most federal law there were also exceptions defined but they were not open ended. Beverages with an alcohol content of 0.5% or more were explicitly illegal. Also, while there were some provisions for allowable possession and use of alcohol in one's home, it did not include alcoholic beverages that were illegally manufactured. There were no restrictions on alcohol used for fuel, medicinal purposes and sacramental usage in religious services. Needless to say prescriptions for alcohol went through the roof and people seemed to have taken a mighty sharp turn at becoming awfully religious in their use of sacramental wine (grin). Movies, due to their poetic license and time limitations, are very unreliable in demon- strating actual facts and conditions. As an example, the movie "The Untouchables" starring Kevin Kostner (and to some degree the TV series) would have you believe that Elliot Ness was responsible for the indictment and conviction of Al Capone and witnessed the death of his underboss Frank Nitti. None of that is true. The IRS nailed Al Capone for tax evasion and he was also charged with about 5,000 violations of the Volstead Act. Frank Nitti committed suicide about 5 or 6 years after Capone's imprisonment rather than go to prison himself. Ness' role is actually much exaggerated but it makes for a good story. To some degree I believe you are juxtaposing the inability (and unwillingness) to enforce the law as if the law itself allowed certain things to be legal that it actually made illegal. The Volstead Act was supposed to have been heavily enforced in the South and West but very sparingly enforced in the North and East of the US. In many locations and communi- ties it was not enforced at all and looked upon with scorn. For the enforcement that was done, court dockets became so overloaded with criminal cases that it too had the effect of limiting enforcement. Also public intoxication arrests skyrocketed during prohibition further impacting the courts and overwhelming them. In any event, the grand experiment was an unmitigated failure. Supposedly per capita alcohol consumption actually increased over the duration of the Volstead Act until repeal of the 18th amendment when it declined (go figure). Cheers Arthur - - - - John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) wrote: Alcohol and drinking were never "illegal" under federal law. The purchase or use of intoxicating liquors was never proscribed by the 18th Amendment or Volstead Act. Those laws prohibited the manufacture, transportation or sale of intoxicating liquors. Bob and Bill could drink and buy liquor without fear of legal penalties during the Prohibition period. When you see old movies of a "raid" by Treasury agents, you won't see the agents arresting the drinkers. They just close the joint and impound the hootch. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4184. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Abercrombie and "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2007 12:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Abercrombie would be a common word. In the west there is a city named after a fort named after an American Colonel on the Red River. As a doctor, Dr Bob would have had to be aware of a foreign doctor known on for his work on major diseases. On the web, one can see more references to the name in the area where he grew up and went to school. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4185. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2007 3:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie A., David J., and Shakey Mike: ordering information for Share From: (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Hi Frank, Will forward your message to our GSO in York, UK. If you get no reply you can contact them at: aashare@btconnect.com (aashare at btconnect.com) Or - telephone (UK) 01904 644026. Thanks for your interst and good hunting! Laurie A. - - - - From: Frank E. Nyikos, Milford, Indiana, USA (fenyikos at hoosierlink.net) >Would be interested in ordering Share magazine, >but living in a small rural community, do >not have access to convert dollars so as to >send pounds - Would appreciate further info >and/or email address to find out how this >could be done. - - - - From: "David Jones" (davidjones at davidjones3.plus.com) The email address for Share magazine is: aashare@btconnect.com (aashare at btconnect.com) Hopefully, they will bee able to help you. The subscription rate is £12 p.a for UK; £22.50 p.a. for Europe; and £35 p.a international airmail. God bless Dave - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Shakey here - to update this ... I contacted Share and was given the following information in reference to their magazine. it may also hold true for the book. I will pass on further information as it becomes available. >Hi Mike >Thank you for your interest in subscribing >to Share. To order 2 copies per month for >1 year is 135.513 USD (£70.00) or 2 copies >for 6 months 67.736 USD (£35.00). If it >is easier this can be paid direct into our >bank, I will send you the details if you >require them. >Best wishes >Chris Yis, Shakey Mike Going to 11th NAW in Phoenix Sept 6-9,2007. Plan now to make it. Hope to see you all there. - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: Here is the information given online by the British AA organization. They give a cost of one pound per issue if you buy it one issue at a time. It seems to come out twice a month, so that would be 24 pounds per year bought in the U.K. The price when sent by international airmail is much steeper, because of postage. That seems to be 35 British pounds for a six month's subscription (12 issues), and 70 British pounds for a year's subscription. That would be about 2.92 British pounds per issue. It's about two U.S. dollars to the pound, which roughly doubles the cost in dollars. At today's conversion rate, that would be 67.95 U.S. dollars for six months and 135.87 U.S. dollars for a year's subscription. http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/11literature.shtml http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/share.shtml AA Share Magazine SHARE is the official magazine of Alcoholics Anonymous in England and Wales. Its 32 pages are a source of sober views and ideas on the world-wide Fellowship and its programme of recovery from alcoholism. It serves as a meeting between meetings for newcomers to AA, helping them to both identify with others and learn more about the Fellowship. SHARE also aims to assist experienced members in maintaining and improving the quality of their lives in sobriety. All content is written by AA members and is divided into articles reflecting general experience, strength and hope; those that trace the roots, early days and fundamental principles of AA; and those submitted in response to the advertised monthly theme, e.g. The Telephone Lifeline or My Best Day Sober. A 300-word editorial usually dwells on the theme and there are regular features like Letters Pages, Diary of a Recovering Alcoholic and SHAREisms... a collection of homilies and insights that reflect the hard-edged wisdom available around 'The Rooms' (meetings). No poetry or obituaries are published. SHARE is put together by an Editor and Production Editor taking their turn at Fellowship service. The production disk is laid out and illustrated professionally. Both report to a London monthly meeting of the Editorial Team who advise, support and monitor guidelines. The final decision on published material rests with the Editor, who is appointed on a four-year term by the General Service Board of AA. The 4-page glossy centrefold -- the cover too has access to full colour -- serves as a pull-out information guide on AA groups and events. It is assembled by AA's paid staff at the York General Service Office, which also logs and despatches contributions to the Editor and three advisory Readers; types up the selected content and distributes the magazine to groups and individual readers. GSO organises subscriptions, which are paid in advance. SHARE costs £1 and circulation is around 4,800. This is A.A. General Service Conference- approved literature Prepared by General Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4186. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Proxy battle in Akron From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2007 12:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII SOURCE REFERENCES: AACOA--AA Comes of Age AGAA--The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B BW-RT--Bill W by Robert Thompson BW-FH--Bill W by Francis Hartigan CH--Children of the Healer, by Christine Brewer DBGO--Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers GB--Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson NG--Not God, by Ernest Kurtz NW--New Wine, by Mel B PIO--Pass It On, AAWS RAA--The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman 1909: The Akron Rubber Mold and Machine Co was founded. It reorganized later, in 1928, as the National Rubber Machinery Co. In 1935, it became the center of a proxy fight that brought Bill W to Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211-212, CH 4, NG 26, PIO 134, RAA 142) 1915: T Henry Williams went to Akron, OH to work as Chief Engineer for the National Rubber Machinery Co. (PIO 145) 1935 April, Bill W returned to Wall St and was introduced to Howard Tompkins of the firm Baer and Co. Tompkins was involved in a proxy fight to take over control of the National Rubber Machinery Co based in Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211, NG 26, BW-FH 74, PIO 133-134, GB 33) May, Bill W went to Akron but the proxy fight was quickly lost. He remained behind at the Mayflower Hotel very discouraged. (BW-RT 212, PIO 134-135) =========== [after Bill and Bob met] =========== June, Bill and Dr Bob went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to the proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73, DBGO 70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture readings at meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians Chapter 13 and the Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96 says that meetings were held at Dr Bob's house and moved to the Williams' house in late 1936 or early 1937) In other sources I've read, Bill also had dreams of possibly becoming the chief executive of the company targeted for takeover. Cheers Arthur --Original Message-- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Lee Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 2:12 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Proxy battle in Akron No. Bill was representing a group of stockholders who wanted to take over management of the Akron company. In a proxy fight an individual obtains "proxies," a document which constitutes legal permission to vote for the stockholder who supplied the proxy. A prospective management group contacts stockholders with large voting blocks of stock, and asks those stockholders for their proxies. Stockholders elect the board of directors for a corporation. The board of directors selects the officers of the company, such as president, vice-president, treasurer. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4187. . . . . . . . . . . . Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2007 10:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bluhm, Amy Colwell. Verification of C. G. Jung's Analysis of Rowland Hazard and the History of Alcoholics Anonymous. History of Psychology. 2006 Nov Vol 9(4) 313-324. From: Alcohol Self-help News < http://alcoholselfhelpnews.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/verification-of-c-g-jung s-an\ alysis-of-rowland-hazard-and-the-history-of-alcoholics-anonymous/ [2]> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4188. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2007 1:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not sure why the link below was posted, but a direct link to the information rather than the below link to the copy is: http://content.apa.org/journals/hop/9/4/313 ---- Original message ---- From: "robin_foote" > Bluhm, Amy Colwell. Verification of C. G. > Jung's Analysis of Rowland Hazard and the > History of Alcoholics Anonymous. History of > Psychology. 2006 Nov Vol 9(4) 313-324. > > http://alcoholselfhelpnews.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/verification-of-c-g-jung s-an\ alysis-of-rowland-hazard-and-the-history-of-alcoholics-anonymous/ [2] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4189. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2007 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous (2004). http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html Dubiel showed in this book, that although A.A. tradition said that Hazard was a patient of the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung for a year in 1931, he could have spent two months with Jung at most during the course of that year, and even that would have been difficult, based on his study of the Hazard family papers. But in the period immediately following the publication of this book, two other researchers, Amy Colwell Bluhm, Ph.D., and Cora Finch, working independently, established that Rowland actually arrived in Zurich in May 1926 (five years earlier than the traditional A.A. date). See Bluhm's article "Verification of C. G. Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the American Psychological Association's journal History of Psychology in November 2006 and Cora Finch's long account of Rowland Hazard's life and struggles with alcoholism at http://www.stellarfire.org/ Other than the re-dating however, Bluhm's and Finch's work corroborated the A.A. tradition that Rowland Hazard was Carl Jung's patient for a considerable length of time, and the two of them discovered a good deal of detail about Rowland's relationship with Jung and the general background. Jung ended up telling Rowland that he had never seen alcoholics of his type recover until they became willing to commit themselves to the spiritual life. Since Rowland was a typical alcoholic, however, it took him seven more years of denial and misery -- as he continued to refuse to take Jung's prescription seriously -- before he met Courtenay Baylor from the Emmanuel Movement and began seeking a spiritual solution to his alcoholism. Dubiel's book shows how Hazard had to be hospitalized for his alcoholism in February and March of 1932, and then from January 1933 to October 1934 was again in bad shape and unable to carry on his business activities. But then he explains how Courtenay Baylor became Rowland Hazard's therapist in 1933, and continued to work with him through 1934. It was under the influence of Baylor's Emmanuel Movement therapy (with its combination of spirituality and simple lay therapy) that Hazard actually began to recover. Hazard was also attending Oxford Group meetings, but his family was paying Baylor to be his regular therapist. In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped rescue Ebby Thacher from being committed to Brattleboro, and three months later, in November 1934, Ebby visited Bill Wilson in his kitchen, in the famous scene recorded in the first chapter of the Big Book. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4190. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Seiberling''s grave From: Bob S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2007 4:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An archivist friend of mine, who lives in southern Indiana, would like to learn where Henrietta Seiberling is buried. Best information leads me to believe that her plot is in Kentucky and that her gravestone is inscribed "Let go and let God." I would much appreciate this information - thanks! Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4191. . . . . . . . . . . . Charles B. Towns (1 of 2) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2007 8:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charles B. Towns, Ph.D. In 1917, Charles B. Towns, Ph.D., who had founded a Manhattan hospital at the turn of the century as a "drying-out” facility, wrote a groundbreaking article for The Modern Hospital magazine in which he asserted, "There is no such thing as 'curing' a case of alcoholism. There is nothing on earth you can do to prevent any human being from taking up the use of alcohol again if he wants to." Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous started his recovery at that hospital. When the time came in 1938 to finance the writing of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous and the selling of shares in Works Publishing Co., Dr. "Silky" Silkworth, Bill's physician and a friend of A.A., helped to convert Dr. Towns into a great A.A. enthusiast and had encouraged him to loan $2,000 toward preparation of the book, a sum that was increased to $4,000 and later paid back in full. But he would not buy stock, he wanted a note for security! Dr. Towns also approached Fulton Oursler, then editor of Liberty magazine, who commissioned feature writer Morris Markey to write the article "Alcoholics and God" for the September 1939 issue, giving A.A. its first national publicity. As we know, Ebby Thacher, sober in the Oxford Group 2 months, and living at Calvary Mission run by Rev. Sam Shoemaker, had visited with Bill shortly after Armistice Day 1934. Bill Wilson then made his first visit to Calvary Mission on or about December 7, 1934, just days before his last admittance to Towns Hospital, December 11, 1934. This could very well account for the influence on Bill’s fascination with the conversion experience whether he realized it or not. He had researched much religious material as well as Richard Peabody’s "Common Sense Of Drinking," and perhaps the works of Charles B. Towns, although it is not well known that Charles Towns wrote three important books on alcoholism: "Habits That Handicap" (1915), "Reclaiming The Drinker"(1931), and "Alcohol And Drug Sickness"(1934). Bill, with his inquiring mind, may well have read them in his previous trips to Towns Hospital. Towns was very emphatic about never talking down to an alcoholic, or scolding a man that you are trying to help. (12 Steppers and Al-Anons take note.) There are other articles by or about Towns listed below, and the text of two of them follow below that: Habits That Handicap: The Remedy for Narcotic, Alcohol, Tobacco and Other Drug Addictions (New York; London: Funk and Wagnalls, 1919) Help for the Hard Drinker; What Can Be Done to Save the Man Worth While (New York, 1912) "The Injury of Tobacco and its Relation to other Drug Habits," 83 Cent. Mag. 766-772 (1912) The Peril of the Drug Habit, and the Need of Restrictive Legislation (New York: Century Co., 1912) Federal Responsibility in the Solution of the Habit-forming Drug Problem (New York, 1916) The Personal Problem Confronting the Physician in the Treatment of Drug and Alcoholic Addiction (New York: Charles B. Towns Hospital, 1917) The Present and Future of Narcotive Pathology, in Three Parts (New York: Charles B. Towns Hospital, 1917) The Alcoholic Problem Considered in its Institutional, Medical, and Sociological Aspects, in Three Parts (New York, The C. B. Towns Hospital, 1917) NEW DRUG LAW HITS ACCIDENTAL USERS Towns Says Provision Must Be Made to Treat Thousands Who Got Habit Unconsciously. THEIR SUPPLY SHUT OFF Drug Fiends of the Underworld Will Be Little Affected by Statute Governing Physicians' Prescriptions. New York Times June 21, 1914 The Boylan anti-drug law, which was passed by the New York Legislature on March 28, and which becomes effective on July 1, will result in serious consequences if State and city authorities do not make immediate provision for the treatment of "innocent" drug slaves, according to Charles B. Towns of 119 West Eighty-first Street, who framed the law. "There are thousands of persons in this city alone who have unconsciously become addicted to the use of habit-forming drugs and who are not in any way to blame for their condition," Mr. Towns said yesterday. "Some of these innocent victims may not yet know that they have become drug fiends. No estimate can be made of their number. These are persons who, perhaps several years ago, were given drugs on physicians prescriptions to alleviate suffering from some disease or injury which, in most of the cases has since been cured. The administra- tion of the drug, however, creates a craving for it which the patient cannot withstand, and after the cause for the first doses is gone the habit remains. The victims then secure more and more of the drug on their physicians' prescriptions. If the drug is denied them they become violently nervous and show all of the horrible symptoms of the deprived dope fiend within twenty-four hours; making it necessary for their physicians to renew the prescriptions. "The new law provides that in the future, it shall be unlawful for any physician, veterina- rian, or dentist to issue prescriptions for drugs except after a physical examination for the treatment of disease, injury, or deformity, and to prevent the forging of prescription blanks every doctor signing them must affix a record of his name in full, his office address, office hours, and telephone number, and to whom the prescription is issued, together with the date of issuance. It can be filled but once, and must be filled within ten days. It will also be unlawful for any person to fill such prescription without first verifying its authenticity by telephone or otherwise or to have drugs in his possession without authority. Aside from the fact that any dealer or physician found guilty of breaking the new law will be guilty of a misdemeanor, his license may be revoked upon his conviction. "These new strictures will make it impossible for the innocent drug fiends to secure more drugs from their physicians. The law for the time being will hardly affect the drug users of the underworld, who have long known secret channels through which they can obtain their drugs. It will fall most heavily on the person who has broken no law in the past in securing habit forming drugs and will drive him--or her, for there are vast numbers of women who have become drug fiends in this manner--to seek illicit drug dens if other methods are not speedily provided. The law provides that persons who are found to be habitual users of such drugs shall be committed to a State, county, or city hospital or institution licensed under the State Lunacy Commission until they have been treated sufficiently to warrant their release. It takes only five or six days to cure a drug fiend in a hospital, but as yet the hospitals licensed by the commission have not made ample preparation for the treatment of more than a small percentage of the cases which should be sent to them when the law goes into effect if the highest good is to be derived from the law. "The movement for intelligent legislation regulating drug traffic is comparatively young and New York's new law will not remedy conditions in this State, but it is a good beginning. It should attract the attention of intelligent people in other States, and should be imitated throughout the country. Until this is done, however, and uniform anti-drug legislation has been secured we will be handicapped by the fact that drug users in New York can send prescriptions across the river to New Jersey, or elsewhere, and have them filled with little inconvenience. The law provides that all orders for the wholesale purchase of drugs must be written on serially numbered, duplicated blanks furnished by the Commissioner of Health. This will keep track of all supplies of drugs purchased in New York, but druggists, or persons posing as druggists, will still be able to order from Philadelphia, or elsewhere on their regular letterhead paper or on fake letterhead paper. The need of national legislation is obvious." Mr. Towns has prepared an act which he hopes to have passed by Congress imposing a tax upon and regulating the importation, production, manufacture and distribution of habit-forming drugs. Under the present Federal law, he said yesterday, the government asks no question concerning the disposition which is made of crude drugs imported into the country, but simply taxes them as they come in. His bill proposes that a close record be kept of every ounce of habit-forming drug that enters the country until it is finally consumed under orders from a reputable physician. There should also be legal provision, he said yesterday, to prevent the filling of prescriptions for drugs issued by any physician not a resident of the State in which the prescription is filled, so as to overcome the present interstate laxity. In setting an example in the matter for other States to follow, it was suggested it would be a good idea for the New York State Medical Society to prepare official prescription blanks exclusively for drugs and to have them copyrighted so that similar blanks could not be printed for illicit use. When asked what he considered the principal cause of the widespread use of drugs, Mr. Towns said: "In the six thousand cases I have studied, I have found that in every case in which the victim was a youth he had smoked cigarettes long before he began to take drugs." Effective universal anti-drug legislation, he said, would reduce lunacy and criminality about 40 per cent. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4192. . . . . . . . . . . . Charles B. Towns (2 of 2) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2007 8:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The New York Times, April 29,1917 WAR IS INCREASING THE DRUG-CONSUMING HABIT Hospitals Develop Craving, Says Charles B. Towns, Who Urges Federal Action No human intensity can compare with that of the drug user for his drug. Unrelieved, he will let nothing stand between him and it; neither hunger, nakedness, starvation, arson, theft, nor murder will keep him from the substance he craves. This is the opinion of Charles B. Towns of New York City, of whom Dr. Richard C. Cabot of Boston does not hesitate to say that he "knows, more about the alleviation and cure of drug addictions than any doctor I have ever seen." The man who first indorsed Mr. Towns and urged Dr. Cabot, to study his specific treatment for the drug-taker, was Dr. Alexander Lambert of Bellevue Hospital, Professor of Clinical Medicine at the Cornell University Medical College. And it is also the opinion of Mr. Towns that the war in Europe has resulted in a tremendous and unnecessary increase in the use of habit- forming drugs, and that the great need in our country at the moment is that Congress empower the President to appoint a committee of able men to investigate this whole matter in all its phases and make such appropriation as may be required to protect our soldiers from the insidious evil that is doing its work abroad. Mr. Towns is going to Washington in a few days with this object in view. He hopes to bring forcefully to the attention of President Wilson certain facts concerning the growth of the drug habit among the troops in Europe, together with the necessity that this country take up this whole subject by commission, because it is so far-reaching, involves so much detail, and affects so many and such varied interests that it would be impossible at this time to introduce in Congress legislation that would meet the case as it should be met. "I presume you have read in the papers," said Mr. Towns, "the account of the arrest of some illicit traffickers in habit-forming drugs in which an enormous quantity--- $500,000 worth, it is reported--- of such drugs was found and it was also stated that this organization had representatives in foreign countries and was carrying on a wholesale business in such drugs. This is of great interest and confirms my position, namely, that unless this problem is taken up internationally it will be impossible to reach such things, because, the present Federal and State laws on the subject are wholly inadequate." Before any legislation is proposed, Mr. Towns believes the subject should be investigated by the Federal Government and that its findings should be made public and studied as a prelimi- nary to the enactment of any law or amendment to the present law. "With the united wisdom of Congress applied to the matter,'' he said a few days ago, "there can be no doubt that such an investigation as I have in mind would lay the foundation for Federal legislation that would once and for all solve this monstrous problem. Such action of Congress would mean not only a solution of this subject as far as the Federal Government is concerned; it would mean also a solution for the States. And it would, mind you, establish a legislative, medical, and sociological precedent that would give this country for the first time the primacy it ought to have in asking other countries to join with us once and for all in terminating this evil--an evil which has now become not merely a series of isolated national problems, but a united world problem. "I have recently had a patient in this hospital who had been going through two kinds of battle in France. He won the Victoria Cross. But he also acquired the drug habit. The army hospital made a drug taker out of him. It has probably done the same for half a million other brave men. "Before enlisting in the present war he in South Africa, was awarded a South African Service Medal, and was honorably discharged. He went to France in August, 1914, and was in his first engagement on Aug. 25, 26, 27, and 28 when he was 'gassed.' "He told me that the physical condition produced by gas was similar to pneumonia in several respects. One being a contraction of the chest which makes it impossible for the patient to lie down. The patients, himself included, were carried into the hospital, set up against a wall, and immediately placed under the influence of morphine. He said it had been found that morphine was the only thing that would relieve a sufferer from the effects of gas. "As soon as the patients were able to help themselves and to use a hypodermic a mixture of this morphine solution was put on a table within their reach, and they were allowed to use it as often as they felt inclined. "Now, this soldier was not aware that he was becoming a morphine addict, but in those three months he became one. The treatment followed in his case was the usual one, and, so far as his observations went, each of the gas victims who entered the hospital for treatment left it a confirmed drug user. "He returned to the front and took part in the Hill 60 engagement, where his battalion was wiped out---the Eleventh Battalion of the Black Watch. He stood for an hour and a quarter at roll call, and was the only man who answered to his name. But he was wounded and went again to the hospital. He told them that he was up against the morphine habit, and they gave him what morphine he needed while there. "He left that hospital and joined the Royal Engineers. was again wounded, again went to the hospital for three weeks in March, 1915, and again was supplied with the drug during that time. Then he was sent to the Somme front, where it was trench fighting. But he was still able to get the drug in any quantity from civilians. As he put it to me: 'Thousands and thousands of dollars' worth of drugs are being sold by the women who are following the army. "It is the firm conviction of this man that all those who have been through the war from the first and have been 'gassed' are takers of the drug. "On July 27, 1915, his officers had ordered the blowing up of a trench. My friend started with a crew of eleven men to cross 275 feet of tunnel toward the enemy, when, after reaching half the distance, shells from the Austrian guns fell short and blew the tunnelers to pieces. Where had been a tunnel was now only a hole. "My friend picked himself up and found that his leg was sprained and his back hurt. There was one fellow whose leg was blown off. My friend carried him over to their trenches so looked back and saw another companion trying to get up. So he carried him in. He carried back the whole eleven, and dropped when the job was finished. "When he knew anything again he was back in the hospital--the same hospital at which he had remained previously for nearly three months. "He informs me that the hospital records show that while he was in them morphine was admini- stered to him regularly. This will appear on the charts, but not the quantity. He has seen morphine administered to twenty men at one time from the same hypodermic; in fact, the nurses never refused morphine to any one who asked for it. "After he arrived in this country he went to Boston and the British Consul there arranged for him to go to Bermuda with the nurse. He stayed there about two weeks, but his cough got no better and he came back. He then went into the Maine woods, where he tried to rid himself of the drug habit, but found he could not. The open air did cure his cough, and he returned to Boston determined to conquer his addiction to drugs. A physician prescribed for him for four weeks, and he was taking as much morphine at the end of that time as he had been at the beginning. "This man told me that he was very discouraged, and had made up his mind to shoot himself. He talked the matter over with his wife, and they came to New York and saw me. He had only $71 left when he reached New York. I gave him the best room in the house, feeling that I owed it to the boys over there in Europe to do something. He is cured. "Now the basic way for the United States or any other country to deal with this question," Mr. Towns asserted, "to go at once and directly to the very root of the whole business, would be to restrict all use of opium to its crude form and to its forms as laudanum and paregoric. This would cut off all pecuniary interest in it, save for supplying it for legitimate medical needs in the crude form, and in its least harmful forms of laudanum and paregoric. Opium is produced only in a few countries--practically none in our own country--and it is only the manufacture of its alkaloids that requires such large outlay of capital in laboratory equipment. "Where an opiate is indicated there are very few instances in which the required results could not be had from the administration of the crude product. Crude opium is the least harmful form of opium that can be taken for it contains all of the alkaloids and may be taken either by the mouth or in suppositories. If the traffic in and sale of this drug was reduced to traffic and sale of crude opium it would not inconvenience the medical profession in its legitimate use of the drug in any way whatsoever find it would Immediately stop this large illicit traffic that has grown out of the habit-forming drug situation. "No possible good will come out of attempting merely to forbid the importation, manufacture or sale of heroin. The chemists are very clever and they would give us in another day some preparation of opium under some other trade name. And if it was not an actual preparation of opium they would claim that it was a synthetic one. The only way to meet such a habit-forming drug condition is, I repeat, to restrict the manufacture, sale, prescribing and administering of opiates to the crude opium, to laudanum, and to paregoric, and then to hold the physician to a strict accounting of all of these he personally prescribes or administers. There are no physical conditions in which heroin or any other narcotic is indicated but what could be met by these. We can dispense even with morphine and all of the opium alkaloids. "I can go back to the time in the South when there was an old rosewood medicine chest with a ball of opium and a vial of paregoric, and these easily met every possible need where opiates were considered necessary to alleviate pain. The medical profession would not be inconvenienced in the slightest degree by such a restriction, and it would at once eliminate every unfavorable hazard that has grown out of the use of habit-forming drugs for medical purposes. "Stopping importation is a farce, unless at the same time there is a rigid Governmental control in those countries that produce or import the drug. The only obstacle to an international understanding is that the producing countries know very well that Government regulation would materially lessen the sale of the drug. Within the borders of our own country such a system would simplify rather than complicate present conditions. We have today along our frontier find in our parts inspectors trying to stop the illicit traffic in opium, and the money thus spent by our Government would be more than sufficient to handle and distribute all of the drug that is needed for legitimate purposes. "Any druggist could of course continue to buy all that he wished, but he would have to account for what he bought. The drug would serve only its legitimate purpose, because the druggist could sell it only on prescription. This would at once eliminate the gravest feature of the case, the indiscriminate sale of proprietary and patent medicines containing small quantities of opium. The physician would thus have to shoulder the entire responsibility for the use of any habit-forming drug. "I must hammer this point once more: With the Government as the first distributor and the physician as the last, the whole condition of affairs would assume a brighter aspect, for it would be a simple matter to get from the physician a proper accounting for what he had dispensed. Thus the new crop of users would be small, and less than 10 per cent. of the opium at present brought into this country would be sufficient to meet every legitimate need." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4193. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s grave From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2007 1:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 14:52 3/21/2007 , Bob S. wrote: >An archivist friend of mine, who lives in >southern Indiana, would like to learn where >Henrietta Seiberling is buried. Best >information leads me to believe that her plot >is in Kentucky and that her gravestone is >inscribed "Let go and let God." She was from Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, which just so happens is the home of my daughter, and she is buried there according to "A Narrative Timeline of A.A. History." Go here and use the search function: I will mention it to her and see if she can do a phone call or two. I plan a visit there in May and, if we find the grave, can take some pics of it. Lawrenceburg is just south of Frankfort and a few miles west of Lexington in, I believe, Anderson County. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4194. . . . . . . . . . . . Jane S., Q and A: Alcoholism and Sobriety From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2007 11:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII New book out: Jane S., Q and A: Alcoholism and Sobriety, March 2007, ISBN 0-595-42334-5, xvi + 135 pp., $14.95. http://hindsfoot.org/kqa1.html (and http://hindsfoot.org/index.html ) Contains historical material on AA practices, how newcomers were sponsored, and the way AA meetings and committees were run and organized in Pennsylvania (on the East Coast of the United States) in the 1970-2000 period. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4195. . . . . . . . . . . . What was the "ordinary psychological approach"? From: terry144434 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2007 8:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the Doctors opinion, it says, "Many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach." Can anyone clarify what this approach/treatment may have been? Many thanks Terry - - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: The standard work on this topic is the extremely thorough and detailed book by William White, "The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America." Other members of this group may have details on the specific things that Dr. Silkworth had been trying before AA came along. Glenn C. (South Bend) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4196. . . . . . . . . . . . A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2007 10:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is anyone familiar with the origin of the following writing? One of my friend's first sponsors received a copy of it in 1964 on his 3rd anniversary. I have typed the text and it is as follows: AA AND THE HIGHER POWER God In His wisdom, selected this group of men and women to be the purveyors of his goodness. In selecting them, through whom to bring about this phenomenon, He went not to the proud, the mighty, the famous, or the brilliant; He went to the humble, the sick, the unfortunate; He went right to the drunkard, the so-called weakling of the world. Well might He have said to us: "Unto your weak and feeble hands, I have entrusted a power beyond estimate. To you has been given that which has been denied the most learned of your fellows. Not to scientists or statesmen, not to wives or mothers, not even to My priests or ministers, have I given this gift of healing other alcoholics which I entrust to you. "It must be used unselfishly; it carries with it grave responsibility. No day can be too long; no demands upon your time can be too urgent; no case too pitiful; no task to hard; no effort too great. It must be used with tolerance, for I have restricted its application to no race, no creed, and no denomination. Personal criticism you must expect; lack of appreciation will be common; ridicule will be your lot; your motives will be misjudged. You must be prepared for adversity, for what men call adversity is the ladder you must use to ascend the rungs toward spiritual perfection, and, remember – in the exercise of this power, I shall not exact of you beyond your capabilities. "You are not selected because of your exceptional talents, and be careful, always, if success attends your efforts, not to ascribe to personal superiority that to which you can lay claim only by virtue of My gift. If I had wanted learned men to accomplish this mission, the power would have been entrusted to the physician and the scientist. If I had wanted eloquent men, there would have been many anxious for the assignment, for talk is the easiest used of all talents with which I have endowed mankind. If I had wanted scholarly men, the world is filled with better qualified men than you, who would be available. You were selected because you have been the outcasts of the world and your long experience as drunkards has made or should make you humbly alert to the cries of distress that come from the lonely hearts of alcoholics everywhere. "Keep ever in mind the admission you made on the day of your profession in A.A., namely that you are powerless and that it was only with your willingness to turn your life and will unto My keeping that relief came to you." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4197. . . . . . . . . . . . Charles B. Towns'' professional degree From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2007 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Any idea what Towns' Ph.D. was in and where he earned it? I notice in the articles they refer to him as Mr. and physicians as Dr. The academics would howl! If memory serves me well, Silkworth was an M.D. and a neurologist, and Thibault an M.D. and psychiatrist, psychiatry and neurology at the time overlapping quite more than today. Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4198. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Henrietta Seiberling''s grave From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2007 3:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Photos of Henrietta Seiberling's grave (and that of her parents) posted at http://hindsfoot.org/photos1.html Sent in by Charles K., A.A. archivist from California cdknapp@pacbell.net (cdknapp at pacbell.net) Subject: Re: Henrietta Seiberling's grave I am not sure of the exact location of the cemetery, but here is a photo of her tombstone and her parents. She is buried in her family plot (Beckler). I was driven to the cemetery when I attended a National Archives Workshop a few years ago. Hope this helps Charles from California Since we can't put attachments on AAHistoryLovers messages, Charles' photos are posted in the A.A. Historical Materials Part 3 section at http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html on the http://hindsfoot.org/ website) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4199. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" From: PR_Magoo . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2007 4:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The full text of Judge John Touhy's talk is given by Jim Blair in Message 251: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/251 It was at given the Fourth Anniversary of the Chicago Group on October 5, 1943. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4200. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" From: ricktompkins@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2007 10:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Your quote comes from a Chicago Central Office (the Area 19 Service Office) titled AA -- God's Instrument, published since 1953. Many excerpts are taken from that pamphlet, the least of which was Bright Star Press of East Moline, Illinois in the late 1950s, who began printing wallet cards called "Why We Were Chosen." The text is from a prepared talk by AA member John T. of Chicago, a Circuit Cout Judge (later an Illinois Appellate Court Judge) at the Chicago Group's fourth anniversary in 1943. Chicago Archives has the pamphlet's draft that is actually about half of his entire scripted talk (also in the Archives). Many conference taping compamies can provide you with the wallet cards---seems like dozens still sell "Why We Were Chosen." The Judge would be amused! Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4201. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" From: Mark W. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2007 7:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I found what might be your answer by Googling "We Are Chosen" without the quotes. It came up in the first result at, of all places, the Orange Papers. Accordingly, it says that this came from an address given by Judge John T. at the 4th Anniversary of the Chicago Group on October 5, 1943. You can see it here; http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Why_We_Were_Chosen.html If you don't know, the author of the Orange Papers is not particularly enamored with AA :) (I'm trying to say it nicely... he's actually quite vitriolic towards AA) Mark ______________________________ We also received replies on this topic from a number of other members of the group, all referring us to the talk by Judge John Touhy: "Diz Titcher" (diz49 at earthlink.net) "Bruce A. Johanson" (bajohanson at charter.net) Tim Baer (TBaerMojo at aol.com) "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) "Mike Brewer" (tuswecaoyate at yahoo.com) "tomper87" (tomper99 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4202. . . . . . . . . . . . Camel pins? From: iidog@prodigy.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2007 6:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me the history of the camel and coffee pins? I know they were wore on the jacket lapels. Thank you. Jane B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4203. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Camel pins? From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2007 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "The camel each day goes twice to its knees, It picks up it's load with the greatest of ease, It walks through the day with it's head held high, And stays for that day completely dry." The origin I have no idea but the symbolism resonates. Fiona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4204. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Prayers From: zooballistic . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 1:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone help point me in the right direction as to where I might find a listing of all the prayers in the Big Book? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4205. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Camel pins and camel poem From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2007 11:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I always appreciated this verse. Can't find the origin yet. This site expands the lines a bit. AND warns us that after a winter of no drinking, he or she will down 50 gallons at a sitting! George Cleveland http://www.worldtrek.org/odyssey/africa/091599/091599jasminecamel.html "The camel each day Goes twice to his knees He picks up his load With the greatest of ease He walks through the day With his head held high And stays dry for that day Without even a sigh Ships of the desert are these great beasts called join us for a ride, Come one, come all!" - - - - Fiona Dodd wrote: (fionadodd at eircom.net) "The camel each day goes twice to its knees, It picks up its load with the greatest of ease, It walks through the day with its head held high, And stays for that day completely dry." The origin I have no idea but the symbolism resonates. Fiona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4206. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant April Daates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2007 1:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII April April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks and tell them of obsession and allergy. April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best Friend" by Jack Alexander. April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest desire to stop drinking". April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic. April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC. April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big Book. April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used to open AA meetings in Texas. April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died. April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died. April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida. April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill W's "spiritual sponsor." April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack Alexander. April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the office Bill and Hank P shared. April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938) April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford. April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no- hitter in baseball history since 1909. April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the one millionth copy of the Big Book. April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was formed. First 'mail order' group. April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was formed in Seattle. April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock to the Alcoholic Foundation. April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them. April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published. April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died. April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show. April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held. April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation was broadcast on ABC TV. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4207. . . . . . . . . . . . Herbert Spencer quote actually Paley and Poole From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 3:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Des Green" (puggreen2008 at yahoo.co.uk) Hi Glenn, The quote in the BB attributed to Herbert Spencer "Contempt prior to investigation" etc. It has come up in my local group that there is no evidence that he has actually ever said this. I have looked on the net but to no avail. Can you shed some light on to this? Best wishes to you and yours Des - - - - Des, Because of all the discussion and controversy over this, I think it would be useful to give a little summary (in one place) of what is known now about the real authorship of this famous quotation. It seems actually to be a modification made by a man named Poole in 1879 of a line from a book written by William Paley in 1794. Glenn - - - - William Paley, A View of the Evidences of Christianity (1794): "The infidelity of the Gentile world, and that more especially of men of rank and learning in it, is resolved into a principle which, in my judgment, will account for the inefficacy of any argument, or any evidence whatever, viz. contempt prior to examination." Rev. William H. Poole, Anglo-Israel or, The British Nation: The Lost Tribes of Israel (1879). On the title page of this book, Rev. Poole gives his own modified version of this, but still attributes it to Paley: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination." --Dr. Paley The Big Book (at the end of Appendix II on "Spiritual Experience," on page 568 in the fourth edition) has a version which is almost identical to Poole's modified version of what Paley had said: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." -- Herbert Spencer - - - - To learn more, go to the AAHistoryLovers Message Board at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and do a search for Spencer. We've had a lot of stuff on the Message Board about this quote. Among other messages, Message 3546 at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3546 says: Regarding the quote attributed to Herbert Spencer in the Big Book, I've come across some research on this quote by Michael St. George: http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/ In what looks to be a very thorough investigation, St. George concludes that the quote comes from William Paley rather than Spencer. - - - - This excellent and thorough article by by Michael St. George http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/ gives all of the background of the quotation. As he demonstrates, it seems to be a modification of something originally said by William Paley in 1794, where the slightly altered version given by the Rev. William H. Poole in 1879 is almost identical to the wording in the Big Book. The mistaken attribution of the quotation to Herbert Spencer seems to have been common however in a number of books written in the 1930's, 40's, and 50's. The mistake shows up for the first time, as far as is now known, in 1931. How Spencer ever got confused with Paley and Poole is a complete mystery however. There is some suggestion that it might have been carelessness on the part of an editor who put together a book of famous quotations, and placed this quotation at the end of a number of authentic quotations from Paley, without indicating that this particular quotation however came from a different source. The Big Book version makes only four very minor changes in the 1879 Poole version: the word "argument" is put in the plural, there is a dash instead of a period, "that" is used instead of "this," and one comma is removed. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4208. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s story of the A.A. Camel From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2007 4:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE AA CAMEL The camel each day goes twice to his knees. He picks up his load with the greatest of ease. He walks through the day with his head held high. And stays for that day, completely dry. "Dr. Bob would explain prayer by telling how the camels in a caravan would kneel down in the evening, and the men would unload their burdens. In the morning, they would kneel down again, and the men would put the burdens back on. 'It's the same with prayer,' Dr. Bob said. 'We get on our knees to unload at night. And in the morning when we get on our knees again, God gives us just the load we are able to carry for that day.'" Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (1980), page 229 - - - - Same passage on page 229 cited by Tim (TBaerMojo at aol.com) "David Jones" (davidjones at davidjones3.plus.com) Floyd J (Azor521 at aol.com) - - - - "John Wikelius" (nov85_gr at graceba.net) A camel can go 24 hours without a drink. I believe the coffee is just the social concept of fellowship of AA members. - - - - "jenny andrews" (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) At the first convention I attended in the UK in 1985 there was a stall selling trinkets, circle and triangle jewellery, car bumper stickers etc., including a lot of camel pins with the figure 24 on them. I was less than a year sober and I wondered why they had sold out of all the other years of sobriety except 24! Go well, Laurie A. - - - - Also from Dennis McD (denezmcd at aol.com) - - - - IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4209. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Camel pins and Camel Prayer From: Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/3/2007 9:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The camel is one of the original alcoholics' symbols of hope. If the camel can go one day without a drink of water, alcoholics can go one day without a drink of alcohol, One Day at a Time. Dr. Bob, co-founder of the alcoholics org, told the camel story -- see Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (1980), page 229. CAMEL PRAYER "The tasks of the day can pass with ease when a camel or I start on our knees. One Master we serve, the camel and I, and stay for that day completely dry." ___________________________ Fiona Dodd wrote (fionadodd at eircom.net): "The camel each day goes twice to its knees, It picks up its load with the greatest of ease, It walks through the day with its head held high, And stays for that day completely dry." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4210. . . . . . . . . . . . Camel pins in 1948 Grapevine From: PR_Magoo . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2007 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I did a search of the Grapevine digital archive and in the July 1948, Vol. 5, No. 2 issue, there is mention of a camel: "Group to Give Oscar for Anniversaries" "The recognition will take the form of a Camel. The Camel is wholly emblematic of the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e., to live for 24 hours without a drink." That is pretty close, in concept, to what you describe. Phil __________________________________ Jane B. wrote (iidog at prodigy.net): > Can anyone tell me the history of the camel > and coffee pins? I know they were wore on the > jacket lapels. > > Thank you. > Jane B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4211. . . . . . . . . . . . Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: mlb9292 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 1:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been looking for information on the cost of hospital treatment in 1934-35 at Towns in New York and the hospitals in Akron. Can you point me in the right direction or answer my inquiry. Also, I have been searching for some reference to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns Hospital. Can you give me any information or steer me toward materials that may hold the answer? I have read that Towns was a pretty first class and expensive private hospital Thanks, God Bless Ben H, Tulsa, OK IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4212. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book Prayers From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 8:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Prayers in the Big Book Prior to the Stories page:paragraph 12:6 For a brief moment, I had needed and wanted God. There had been a humble willingness to have Him with me - and He came. 13:2 There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then understood Him, to do with me as He would. I placed myself unreservedly under His care and direction. I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that without Him I was lost. 13:4 I was to sit quietly when in doubt, asking only for direction and strength to meet my problems as He would have me. Never was I to pray for myself, except as my requests bore on my usefulness to others. 63:2 God, I offer myself to thee - to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always! 67:0 We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person offended we said to ourselves, "This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done." 68:3 We ask Him to remove our fear and direct our attention to what He would have us be. 69:2 We ask God to mold our [sex] ideals and help us to live up to them. 69:3 In meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter [sex harms]. 70:2 We earnestly pray for the right [sex] ideal, for guidance in each questionable situation, for sanity and for the strength to do the right thing. 75:3 We thank God from the bottom of our heart that we know Him better. 75:3 Carefully reading the first five proposals we ask if we have omitted anything, for we are building an arch through which we shall walk a free man at last. Is our work solid so far? Are the stones properly in place? Have we skimped on the cement put into the foundation? Have we tried to make mortar without sand? 76:1 If we still cling to something we will not let go [shortcomings], we ask God to help us be willing. 76:2 My Creator, I am now willing that You should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that You now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to You and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do Your bidding. Amen. 76:3 We attempt to sweep away the debris which has accumulated out of our effort to live on self- will and run the show ourselves. If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes [making amends]. 79:1 Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences may be [making amends]. 82:1 It may be that both [you and you significant other] will decide that the way of good sense and loving kindness is to let by-gones be by-gones [no direct amends]. Each might pray about it, having the other one's happiness uppermost in mind. 83:1 So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindness and love. 84:2 When these crop up [selfishness, dishonesty, resentment and fear], we ask God at once to remove them. 85:1 How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine) be done. 86:1 After making our (nightly) review we ask God's forgiveness and inquire what corrective measures should be taken. 86:2 Before we begin (meditation), we ask God to direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or self-seeking motives. 86:3 [Facing indecision] Here we ask God for inspiration, an intuitive thought or a decision. We relax and take it easy. We don't struggle. 87:1 We usually conclude the period of meditation with a prayer that we be shown all through the day what our next step is to be, that we be given whatever we need to take care of such problems. We ask especially for freedom from self-will, and are careful to make no request for ourselves only. We may ask for ourselves, however, if others will be helped. We are careful never to pray for our own selfish ends. 87:3 As we go through the day we pause, when agitated or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or action. We constantly remind ourselves we are no longer running the show, humbly saying to ourselves may times each day, "Thy will be done." 158:2 On the third day the lawyer gave his life to the care and direction of his Creator, and said he was perfectly willing to do anything necessary. 164:2 Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4213. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Prayers: the classic old timers'' answer From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 5:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Diz Ticher, Mitchell K., and Shakey Mike - - - - The question was asked by (zoolofttheband at aol.com): Can anyone help point me in the right direction as to where I might find a listing of all the prayers in the Big Book? - - - - Answer (diz49 at earthlink.net) Look for them yourself, then you will not forget them. Diz Titcher - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) You can find them between the front page and the last page of the big book. Shakey - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com) Do I win a prize? I did an Internet search by typing in "prayers in the big book" and came up with many different answers. My favorite appears to be an entry by our very own Barefoot Bill which can be found at (scroll down the page to find the prayers) http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaworkstep1011.html There are dozens of search engines available, most of them do the trick quite well all on their own or you can used dog pile or copernic or other meta engines which search multiple search engines. Most, if not all are free and aid in looking for something. The Internet is such a wonder full venue to find just about anything. All you have to do is seek. I remember reading somewhere that ... seek and ye shall find. For me, seeking isn't asking someone else to find it for me. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4214. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Prayers on Silkworth.net From: Azor521@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 1:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You might find what you want at this site: http://silkworth.net/aa/prayer.html - - - - The same webpage was also recommended by: Susan Banker NYC (sbanker914 at aol.com) "davidrstack" (davidrstack at bellsouth.net) jesse gilliam (mr_clean1991 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4215. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Prayers From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2007 3:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Prayers From The Big Book "I EARNESTLY ADVISE EVERY ALCOHOLIC TO READ THIS BOOK THROUGH, AND THOUGH PERHAPS HE CAME TO SCOFF, HE MAY REMAIN TO PRAY." William D. Silkworth, MD - Pg. xxx "GOD IS EVERYTHING OR HE IS NOTHING. GOD EITHER IS OR HE ISN'T. WHAT WAS OUR CHOICE TO BE?" Pg. 53 Pg. 59 We asked His protection and care with complete abandon. THIRD STEP Pg. 63 - God, I offer myself to Thee - to build with me and do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love and Thy Way of Life. May I do Thy will always! FOURTH STEP PG 67 RESENTMENT - We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person offended we said to ourselves, "This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done." Pg. 68 FEAR - We ask Him to remove our fear and direct our attention to what He would have us be. Pg. 69 SEX - We asked God to mold our ideals and help us live up to them. Pg. 69 SEX - In meditation, we ask God what we do about each specific matter. Pg. 70 SEX - To sum up about sex: We pray for the right ideal, for guidance in each questionable situation, for sanity and for strength to do the right thing. FIFTH STEP Pg. 75 We thank God from the bottom of our heart that we know Him better. Pg. 75 we ask if we have omitted anything, SIXTH STEP Pg. 76 If we still cling to something we will not let go, we ask God to help us be willing. SEVENTH STEP Pg. 76 My Creator, I am now willing that You should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that You now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do Your bidding. Amen EIGHTH STEP Pg. 76 If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes. NINETH STEP Pg. 79 LEGAL MATTERS - We ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences might be. Pg. 80 OTHERS EFFECTED - If we have obtained permission, have consulted with others, asked God to help. Pg. 82 INFIDELITY - Each might pray about it, having the other one's happiness uppermost in mind. Pg. 83 FAMILY - So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love. TENTH STEP Pg. 84 Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment and fear. When these crop up, we ask God at once to remove them. Pg. 85 Everyday is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all our activities. "How can I best serve Thee--Thy will (not mine) be done". ELEVENTH STEP Pg. 86 NIGHT After mediation on the day just completed, "We ask God's forgiveness and inquire what corrective measures should be taken." Pg. 86 MORNING Before we begin our day, "we ask God to direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or self-seeking motives." Pg. 86 MORNING In thinking about our day, "We ask God for inspiration, an intuitive thought or decision". Pg. 87 MORNING We usually conclude the period of mediation with a prayer that we be shown all through the day what our next step is to be, that we be given whatever we need to take care of such problems. We especially ask for freedom from self-will, and are careful to make no requests for ourselves only We may ask for ourselves, however, if others will be helped. We are careful never to pray for our own selfish ends. Pg. 87 - 88 ALL DAY As we go through the day we pause, when agitated or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or action. TWELFTH STEP Pg. 164 Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come IF your own house is in order. Pg. 102 Your job now is to be at the place where you may be of maximum helpfulness to others, so never hesitate to go anywhere if you can be helpful. You should not hesitate to visit the most sordid spot on earth on such an errand. Keep on the firing line of life with these motives and God will keep you unharmed. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4216. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: lester112985 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 1:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Wilson's discharge slip on page 104 in Pass It On states $125.00 for 7 days of treatment. Happy 24 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4217. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Prayers From: george brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2007 4:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From George Brown, mrjamesc1989, and Jay Lawyer - - - - From: george brown (gbaa487 at yahoo.com) Besides the obvious places, i.e. 3rd and 7th step prayer, I've been told that wherever you see the word "ask" that we are being instructed to pray. - - - - From: mrjamesc1989@aol.com (mrjamesc1989 at aol.com) 3rd step prayer page 63 and 7th step prayer page 76 - - - - From: "Jay Lawyer" (ejlawyer at midtel.net) My own handout sheet for sponsees that have done the work. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4218. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: Jay Pees . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 2:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a lead I heard on tape of Bill, that his brother-in-law, Dr Leonard Strong, paid for his time in the hospital. I have seen nothing in print on that. - - - - The question that was asked: Also, I have been searching for some reference to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns Hospital. Can you give me any information or steer me toward materials that may hold the answer? I have read that Towns was a pretty first class and expensive private hospital Thanks, God Bless Ben H, Tulsa, OK IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4219. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ben: I think it was top of the heap in those days. It would seem, I'm sure, unreally low in price in terms of 2007 dollars. But you have to use a multiple (easily obtained from a govt. website) to get from 1935 dollars to today's dollars. I use a rough measure: a nickel candy bar in 1935 would be anywhere from 50 cents to 95 cents today. And remember, enormous gains in automation and other stuff would have tended to keep the price low on things like candy bars. I think it's clear that even at the end Bill (and Bob too) were hooked up with enough of the establishment to have been still a distance from skid row, but it was waiting. Tom W. Odessa, TX IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4220. . . . . . . . . . . . St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 11:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In addition to quotation mistakenly attributed to Spencer, Mel did call to my attention that the St. Francis prayer is a modern prayer that has been wrongly attributed to St. Francis. Bill W. used it in the 12and12. - - - - From the moderator: Glenn C. (South Bend, IN) Checking through our Past Messages, I can't find a quick summary of what is currently known about the authorship of the St. Francis Prayer, so let me give one here. It was not actually written by the medieval saint. The earliest known version only dates back to 1912. I have read that there were early copies of this prayer printed on little cards with a picture of St. Francis on the other side of the card, which is where the prayer got connected with that saint's name. The Wikipedia account of what is known about the prayer seems to be fairly accurate, so I will just quote that: - - - - Prayer of Saint Francis in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_St._Francis The Prayer of Saint Francis is a Christian prayer for Peace widely attributed to the 13th century saint Francis of Assisi, although the prayer in its present form cannot be traced back further than 1912, when it was printed in France in French, in a small spiritual magazine called La Clochette (The Little Bell), as an anonymous prayer, as demonstrated by Dr Christian Renoux in 2001. The prayer has been known in USA since 1936 and Cardinal Francis Spellman distributed billions of copies of the prayer during the WW II. It was the beginning of its international career. The original version of the prayer is the following : Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l’amour. Là où il y a l’offense, que je mette le pardon. Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l’union. Là où il y a l’erreur, que je mette la vérité. Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l’espérance. Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être consolé qu’à consoler, à être compris qu’à comprendre, à être aimé qu’à aimer, car c’est en donnant qu’on reçoit, c’est en s’oubliant qu’on trouve, c’est en pardonnant qu’on est pardonné, c’est en mourant qu’on ressuscite à l’éternelle vie. La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. More than 100 different English versions of the text exist. One well known translation is found in Chapter 11 of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions," a book published by AA Services (Alcoholics Anonymous). Lord, make me a channel of thy peace; that where there is hatred, I may bring love; that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness; that where there is discord, I may bring harmony; that where there is error, I may bring truth; that where there is doubt, I may bring faith; that where there is despair, I may bring hope; that where there are shadows, I may bring light; that where there is sadness, I may bring joy. Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted; to understand, than to be understood; to love, than to be loved. For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life. Amen. The hymn version of Make Me A Channel of Your Peace is an anthem of the Royal British Legion and is usually sung every year at the Service of Remembrance in November at the Royal Albert Hall, London. It goes as follows: Make me a channel of your peace, Where there is hatred let me bring your love, Where there is injury your pardon Lord, And where there's doubt true faith in you. Lord grant that I may never seek, So much to be consoled as to console, To be understood; as to understand, To be loved as to love with all my soul. Make me a channel of your peace, Where there is hatred let me bring your love, Where there is injury your pardon Lord, And where there's doubt true faith in you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4221. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 3:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 12:26 4/7/2007 , lester112985 wrote: >Bill Wilson's discharge slip on page 104 >in Pass It On states $125.00 for 7 days of >treatment. This site's inflation adjuster says $1.00 in 1935 would be equivalent to $14.85 in 2007 dollars. $125 x 14.85 = $1,856.25 This is in line with estimates of a Big Book's price of around $50.00 today if the price kept up with inflation. Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4222. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2007 11:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a source that shows how low wages were in the United States in the 1930s. In the 1930s, organized labor unions ( http://www.wisegeek.com/how-did-labor-unions-start.htm ) along with the Democratic politicians who supported them, began to demand a standardized minimum wage for all workers. In 1935, President Franklin Roosevelt proposed the first federal minimum wage under his National Recovery Act. This act called for a minimum wage of 25 cents per hour. The Supreme Court struck down the National Recovery Act as unconstitutional, rendering the minimum wage unenforceable. In 1938, the Fair Labor Standards Act reinstated the same 25 cent federal minimum wage, along with the legal mechanisms necessary to adjust it over time. At first this act only covered a few transportation and agricultural industries, but later amendments included service workers and general laborers. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4223. . . . . . . . . . . . conference-approved From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/8/2007 10:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a copy of the article published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's entitled "What is Conference Approved Literature?" I believe it was from the August 1976 edition. I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a box but can't find it at the moment. It appears from meetings I have gone to,lately and from some posts on the Internet, there has to be a reminder of what exactly conference approval really means. Some AA members of today tout loudly and with venom that conference approval means that ONLY conference approved literature should be read by AA members. No mention of so-called non-approved materials should be made at meetings and some even mention that they have seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS stating that ONLY conference-approved literature is allowed at meetings. Can someone post that article as it is an official AAWS document defining policy on the use, reading of and having literature other than conference-approved at meetings. Also, does anyone have any documentation from AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does oppose non-conference approved literature and its use by AA members. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4224. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/8/2007 10:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charles B Towns and the Towns Hospital (which includes Dr William D Silkworth) played a key role in a number of facets of AA history. Source references: AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing LOH - The Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine Inc LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz NW - New Wine, by Mel B PIO - Pass It On, AAWS RAA - The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman SD - Slaying the Dragon, by William L White SM - AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service, AAWS SW - Silkworth - the Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, by Dale Mitchell Past dollar amounts below are converted to 2006 dollar values expressed as "($nnn today)" using consumer price index (CPI) conversion factors offered, via the internet, by Professor Robert C Sahr, Oregon State University at Corvallis. http://oregonstate.edu/cla/polisci/faculty/sahr/infcf16652007.pdf Timeline: 1862:- Charles B. Towns was born on a small farm in central GA. (RAA 84) 1901: The Charles B Towns Hospital for Drug and Alcohol Addictions opened in NYC. It was a private "drying out" hospital for the affluent. It initially opened on 81st and 82nd Streets and later moved to 293 Central Park West. Towns also later opened an annex (behind the Central Park facility) at 119 W 81st St to provide treatment for patients of "moderate means." Hospital fees had to be paid in advance, or be guaranteed. Treatment fees for alcoholism ran from $75 to $150 in the main hospital ($1,705 to $3,409 today) and $50 ($1,136 today) in the annex. (SD 84-85, SW 125) Note: there appears to be evidence that Bill W had four admissions to Towns hospital although history material distributed by GSO says three admissions. 1930: Neurologist, Dr William Duncan Silkworth (nicknamed "Silky") after losing his investments and savings in the stock market crash, started work at Towns Hospital earning $40 a week ($482 today). Charles Towns did not see eye to eye with Silkworth on alcoholism as an illness. (PIO 101, SW 30-31) (NG 22 says Silkworth arrived in 1924) 1933: Autumn, Lois, now earning $22.50 a week at Macy's ($352 today) turned to her brother-in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, who arranged, and paid for, Bill W's first admission to Towns Hospital. Bill was subjected to the "belladonna cure." The regimen primarily involved "purging and puking" aided by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174) 1934: July (?), Bill W's second admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V Strong). Bill met Dr Silkworth for the first time. Silkworth explained the obsession and allergy of alcoholism but Bill started drinking again almost immediately upon discharge. Bill was unemployable, $50,000 in debt ($757,576 today) suicidal and drinking around the clock. (AACOA 52, PIO 106-108, BW-40 114-117, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 50-55) September 17, Bill W's third admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V Strong). Dr Silkworth pronounced Bill as hopeless and informed Lois that Bill would likely have to be committed. Bill left the hospital a deeply frightened man and sheer terror kept him sober. He found a little work on Wall St, which began to restore his badly shattered confidence. (PIO 106-109, LR 87, AACOA vii, 56, BW-RT 176-177, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 4-5, 54-55) December 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got financial help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31). (Note: the 7-day hospital bill of $125 shown on PIO 104 would be $1,894 today). December 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell into a deep depression (his "deflation at depth") and had a profound spiritual experience after crying out "If there be a God, will he show himself." Dr Silkworth later assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would later refer to this as his "white flash" or "hot flash" experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279) December 15, Ebby (or possibly Rowland Hazard) brought Bill W a copy of William James' book The Varieties of Religious Experience. Bill was deeply inspired by the book. It revealed three key points for recovery: 1) calamity or complete defeat in some vital area of life (what we today call "hitting bottom"), 2) admission of defeat (what we today call "surrender") and 3) appeal to a higher power for help (what we today call "acceptance"). The book strongly influenced early AAs and is cited in the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, SI 26, BW-40 150-152, NG 20-24, 312-313, NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28) December 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG's US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park Ave) and 21st St. Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held) was at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144) December (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, NG 314) 1935: Early, Bill W worked with alcoholics at the Calvary Mission and Towns Hospital, emphasizing his "hot flash" spiritual experience. Alcoholic Oxford Group members began meeting at his home on Clinton St. Bill had no success sobering up others. (AACOA vii, AABB, BW-FH 69, PIO 131-133) April, Bill W had a talk with Dr Silkworth who advised him to stop preaching about his "hot flash" experience and hit the alcoholics hard with the medical view. Silkworth advised Bill to break down the strong egos of alcoholics by telling them about the obsession that condemned them to drink and allergy that condemned them to go mad or die. It would then be easier to get them to accept the spiritual solution. (AACOA 13, 67-68, BW-RT 211, NG 25-26, PIO 133) Winter, Henry (Hank) Parkhurst (Big Book Story - The Unbeliever) and John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo (Big Book Story - Our Southern Friend) sobered up at Towns Hospital. Hank and Fitz provided a big help to Bill Wm over the next few years. Hank started AA in NJ at his house and Fitz started AA in Washington, DC (AACOA 16-17, 74, LR 101, BW-RT 225-226, NG 43-44) (PIO 191 says 1937) 1936: December, Charles Towns offered Bill W a very lucrative job at his hospital as a lay alcoholism therapist. Bill wanted it. The question was presented to the NY group meeting in Bill's home. They rejected it. This was the emergence of the Traditions principle "God speaking in the group conscience is to be our final authority." (AACOA 100-102, LR 197, BW-RT 232-234, NG 63-64, PIO 175-177) 1938: September, board Trustee Frank Amos arranged a meeting between Bill W and Eugene Exman (Religious Editor of Harper Brothers publishers). Exman offered Bill a $1,500 advance ($21,429 today) on the rights to the book. The Alcoholic Foundation Board urged acceptance of the offer. Instead, Hank P and Bill formed Works Publishing Co. and sold stock at $25 par value ($357 today). 600 shares were issued: Hank and Bill received 200 shares each, 200 shares were sold to others. Later, 30 shares of preferred stock, at $100 par value ($1,300 today) were sold as well. To mollify the board, it was decided that the author's royalty (which would ordinarily be Bill's) could go to the Alcoholic Foundation. (LR 197, BW-FH 116-119, SM S6, PIO 193-195, AACOA 157, 188) Encouraged by Dr Silkworth, Charles Towns loaned Hank and Bill $2,500 for the book. It was later increased to $4,000. ($57,143 today). (PIO 196, SM S7, LOH 176, AACOA 13-14, 153-159) 1939: September 30, Liberty Magazine, headed by Fulton Oursler, carried a piece titled Alcoholics and God by Morris Markey (who was influenced to write the article by Charles Towns). It generated about 800 inquiries from around the nation. Oursler (author of The Greatest Story Ever Told) became good friends with Bill W and later served as a Trustee and member of the Grapevine editorial board. (AACOA 176-178, LOH 145, 180-183 BW-FH 127-129, PIO 223-224) 1945: October 20, Dr William Duncan Silkworth was hired as director of alcoholic treatment at the Knickerbocker Hospital in NYC. He worked at both the Towns and Knickerbocker Hospitals until his death in 1951. Alcoholics were referred to the "AA Ward" at Knickerbocker Hospital by the NY Intergroup Association. (SW 83, AACOA 206) 1947: February 20, Charles B Towns died. (SD 86) Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Pees Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 1:17 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town's Hospital in 1934 In a lead I heard on tape of Bill, that his brother-in-law, Dr Leonard Strong, paid for his time in the hospital. I have seen nothing in print on that. - - - - The question that was asked: Also, I have been searching for some reference to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns Hospital. Can you give me any information or steer me toward materials that may hold the answer? I have read that Towns was a pretty first class and expensive private hospital Thanks, God Bless Ben H, Tulsa, OK Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4225. . . . . . . . . . . . Camel Pins From: oys.jerry5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/9/2007 3:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was recently doing some research on sobriety lapel pins and talked to a employee at Wendell's located in Anoka MN. (They were formerly located in Minneapolis MN.). She put me onto a man named Bill W. (Ironic or Coincidence) that worked for Wendell's. He shared with me that a man named Frank B. made the mold for the Camel Pin. Frank was a member of the Mother Club in Minneapolis (Now known as 2218). The pins in turn were made by Jo Hantigans Jewelry which I believe was located in Minneapolis at the time. They are now located in Crystal MN. and currently have pins in stock. The oldest one I have was my fathers and it has a screw on back and those made today have a clutch back. They are dark maroon in color rimed in gold with 24 in the center and approx. 3/8 X 3/8 of an inch in size. I purchased some of them a number of years ago at a cost of $3.00 to $6.00. Therefore from my perception the Birthplace/ Orgin of the Camel Pin is Minneapolis, Minnesota, in the 1940's. At this point in time again from my perception I do not believe that Frank B. made the mold. I would tend to believe that Frank designed the pin. As a Goldsmith would have made the mold. I plan on visiting Jo Hantigans to gather more information. Which means that "More Will Be Revealed". Jerry Oys Southern Minnesota Area 36 Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4226. . . . . . . . . . . . Date of White Light experience at Towns From: smithdewan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/9/2007 3:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Do we know the exact date of Bill's mystical experience and how was it determined? I have only seen Towns admittance and release dates in print. Thanks Jack S. - - - - From the moderator: Message 3890 from chesbayman56@yahoo.com (chesbayman56 at yahoo.com) gives these dates: Dec 11, 1934 - Bill admitted to Towns Hosp 4th/last time Dec 12, 1934 - Bill has Spiritual Experience at Towns Hospital. But in messages which appeared later on, the commemoration ceremony seems to have been set on December 10th: Message 3938 from mweemwow@yahoo.com (mweemwow at yahoo.com) Message 3920 from Robt Woodson (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4227. . . . . . . . . . . . Gay groups listed in schedules From: Li Lightfoot . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/9/2007 6:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey Folks: I am working on an article to be published in the San Francisco Fellowship's newsletter on the first Gay groups in A.A. We know that there was a lot of controversy about listing Gay and Lesbian Groups in the schedules and that this was eventually overcome. Does anyone know the details of this history or know where I might find out about it? Thanks, Li Lightfoot The Point Committee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4228. . . . . . . . . . . . Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2007 11:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A friend gave me a copy of "The Search For Serenity and How to Achieve It" by Lewis F. Presnall (1959), published by the Utah Alcoholism Foundation. He says he used to see the book in the rooms when he got sober 30 years ago. I was curious if anyone has any additional information about the author, the book or its place in AA history. Thanks, Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4229. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 From: silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 10:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Renoux' research on the St Francis of Assisi prayer. The Original Text of this very popular Prayer and the history of its origin: The Origin of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis* by Dr. Christian Renoux, Associate Professor of the University of Orleans, France Original Text of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour. Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon. Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union. Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité. Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance. Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être consolé qu'à consoler, à être compris qu'à comprendre, à être aimé qu'à aimer, car c'est en donnant qu'on reçoit, c'est en s'oubliant qu'on trouve, c'est en pardonnant qu'on est pardonné, c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite à l'éternelle vie. Source: La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. Origin of this Prayer The first appearance of the Peace Prayer occurred in France in 1912 in a small spiritual magazine called La Clochette (The Little Bell). It was published in Paris by a Catholic association known as La Ligue de la Sainte- Messe (The Holy Mass League), founded in 1901 by a French priest, Father Esther Bouquerel (1855-1923). The prayer bore the title of 'Belle prière à faire pendant la messe' (A Beautiful Prayer to Say During the Mass), and was published anonymously. The author could possibly have been Father Bouquerel himself, but the identity of the author remains a mystery. The prayer was sent in French to Pope Benedict XV in 1915 by the French Marquis Stanislas de La Rochethulon. This was soon followed by its 1916 appearance, in Italian, in L'Osservatore Romano [the Vatican's daily newspaper]. Around 1920, the prayer was printed by a French Franciscan priest on the back of an image of St. Francis with the title 'Prière pour la paix' (Prayer for Peace) but without being attributed to the saint. Between the two world wars, the prayer circulated in Europe and was translated into English. Its has been attributed the first time to saint Francis in 1927 by a French Protestant Movement, Les Chevaliers du Prince de la Paix (The Knights of the Prince of Peace), founded by Étienne Bach (1892-1986). The first translation in English that we know of appeared in 1936 in Living Courageously, a book by Kirby Page (1890-1957), a Disciple of Christ minister, pacifist, social evangelist, writer and editor of The World Tomorrow (New York City). Page clearly attributed the text to St. Francis of Assisi. During World War II and immediately after, this prayer for peace began circulating widely as the Prayer of St. Francis, specially through Francis Cardinal Spellman's books, and over the years has gained a worldwide popularity with people of all faiths. For more information : see the book by Dr. Christian Renoux, La prière pour la paix attribuée à saint François : une énigme à résoudre, Paris, Editions franciscaines, 2001, 210 p. : 12.81 euros + shipping (ISBN : 2-85020-096-4). -- Order From: Éditions franciscaines, 9, rue Marie-Rose F-75014 Paris. Author's Note: Dr. Christian Renoux is continuing his research on the propagation of this prayer, and is looking for new information about its publication in English between 1925 and 1945, and in all other languages between 1912 and today. If you have such information, please contact him at contacted at this email address. --------------------------------- The Franciscan Archive wishes to thank Dr. Renoux for permission to publish the Original Text of this very popular Prayer and the history of its origin. --------------------------------- *From The Franciscan Archive Yours in service, Jim M. Baileygc23@aol.com wrote: In addition to quotation mistakenly attributed to Spencer, Mel did call to my attention that the St. Francis prayer is a modern prayer that has been wrongly attributed to St. Francis. Bill W. used it in the 12and12. - - - - From the moderator: Glenn C. (South Bend, IN) Checking through our Past Messages, I can't find a quick summary of what is currently known about the authorship of the St. Francis Prayer, so let me give one here. It was not actually written by the medieval saint. The earliest known version only dates back to 1912. I have read that there were early copies of this prayer printed on little cards with a picture of St. Francis on the other side of the card, which is where the prayer got connected with that saint's name. The Wikipedia account of what is known about the prayer seems to be fairly accurate, so I will just quote that: - - - - Prayer of Saint Francis in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_St._Francis The Prayer of Saint Francis is a Christian prayer for Peace widely attributed to the 13th century saint Francis of Assisi, although the prayer in its present form cannot be traced back further than 1912, when it was printed in France in French, in a small spiritual magazine called La Clochette (The Little Bell), as an anonymous prayer, as demonstrated by Dr Christian Renoux in 2001. The prayer has been known in USA since 1936 and Cardinal Francis Spellman distributed billions of copies of the prayer during the WW II. It was the beginning of its international career. The original version of the prayer is the following : Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix. Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l’amour. Là où il y a l’offense, que je mette le pardon. Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l’union. Là où il y a l’erreur, que je mette la vérité. Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi. Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l’espérance. Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière. Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie. Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être consolé qu’à consoler, à être compris qu’à comprendre, à être aimé qu’à aimer, car c’est en donnant qu’on reçoit, c’est en s’oubliant qu’on trouve, c’est en pardonnant qu’on est pardonné, c’est en mourant qu’on ressuscite à l’éternelle vie. La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285. More than 100 different English versions of the text exist. One well known translation is found in Chapter 11 of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions," a book published by AA Services (Alcoholics Anonymous). Lord, make me a channel of thy peace; that where there is hatred, I may bring love; that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness; that where there is discord, I may bring harmony; that where there is error, I may bring truth; that where there is doubt, I may bring faith; that where there is despair, I may bring hope; that where there are shadows, I may bring light; that where there is sadness, I may bring joy. Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted; to understand, than to be understood; to love, than to be loved. For it is by self-forgetting that one finds. It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life. Amen. The hymn version of Make Me A Channel of Your Peace is an anthem of the Royal British Legion and is usually sung every year at the Service of Remembrance in November at the Royal Albert Hall, London. It goes as follows: Make me a channel of your peace, Where there is hatred let me bring your love, Where there is injury your pardon Lord, And where there's doubt true faith in you. Lord grant that I may never seek, So much to be consoled as to console, To be understood; as to understand, To be loved as to love with all my soul. Make me a channel of your peace, Where there is hatred let me bring your love, Where there is injury your pardon Lord, And where there's doubt true faith in you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4230. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Camel Pins From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 9:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Jerry, Thanks for the great info about the Camel Pins. After snooping around the internet for a bit, I think the jewelry store is Hantgen's Jewelry. They are still in Minneapolis, at the Crystal Shopping Centre. (I think Crystal is a neighborhood or town within the city limits, like Fridley). Phone number is (763) 537-7233. Let us know what you find out and whether they take mail orders (I'm in North Carolina). John K. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "oys.jerry5672" wrote: > > I was recently doing some research on sobriety > lapel pins and talked to a employee at > Wendell's located in Anoka MN. (They were > formerly located in Minneapolis MN.). She > put me onto a man named Bill W. (Ironic or > Coincidence) that worked for Wendell's. He > shared with me that a man named Frank B. made > the mold for the Camel Pin. Frank was a > member of the Mother Club in Minneapolis > (Now known as 2218). The pins in turn were > made by Jo Hantigans Jewelry which I believe > was located in Minneapolis at the time. They > are now located in Crystal MN. and currently > have pins in stock. The oldest one I have > was my fathers and it has a screw on back and > those made today have a clutch back. They > are dark maroon in color rimed in gold with > 24 in the center and approx. 3/8 X 3/8 of an > inch in size. I purchased some of them a > number of years ago at a cost of $3.00 to > $6.00. > > Therefore from my perception the Birthplace/ > Orgin of the Camel Pin is Minneapolis, > Minnesota, in the 1940's. > > At this point in time again from my perception > I do not believe that Frank B. made the mold. > I would tend to believe that Frank designed > the pin. As a Goldsmith would have made the > mold. > > I plan on visiting Jo Hantigans to gather > more information. Which means that "More > Will Be Revealed". > > Jerry Oys > Southern Minnesota Area 36 Archivist > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4231. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Dr. Silkworth ever treat women alcoholics? From: Des Green . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 4:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings, Are there any records that show lady alcoholics being treated by Dr Silkworth, at Towns or otherwise ? Best wishes to all Des IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4232. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: conference-approved From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 2:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The information you are looking for is currently published in "The Group Handbook" (cost $11.00 publication M-36 from GSO). The handbook is sent to every new group that registers with GSO. It contains two pages titled "Conference-Approved Literature." You can also check message 3369 for a past AAHL posting that contains the information. The key paragraph of interest regarding the term "Conference-approved" states: "The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does not ["not" is underlined] imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read." There is a substantial amount of AA literature that is not Conference-approved: *Grapevine (and its non-English counterparts) *Box 459 *Guidelines (the "yellow sheets") *Markings (the GSO Archives newsletter) *About AA (PI releases) *Directories *Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of AA (M-39) *Final reports of the General Service Conference Literature published by GSOs other than the US/Canada and AAWS *Final reports of the World Service Conference *Memento booklets from International Conventions *Literature catalogs and flyers (AAWS and Grapevine) *Non-English interpretations of books/pamphlets *Various GSO publications called "service pieces." *Publications by Central Offices and Areas. All the above are a valid part of "AA literature." As an item of interest the term "Conference- approved" would likely be better stated as "Conference-committee-approved." It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates at a Conference get a chance to review a piece of literature prior to voting on it. The review is usually done by a committee of several Delegates. The remainder of the Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, for/against the literature based on the recommendation of the committee (that's how the Foreword to the 4th edition statement about on-line meetings and the punctuation changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other changes slipped past Conference review). While all the Delegates vote on the literature, only a fraction of them actually gets to read it prior to voting. How each group deals with Conference-approved or non-Conference-approved literature is a matter of group conscience (Tradition 2 is the means to the ultimate authority) and is not dictated by any Conference ("Our leaders are but trusted servants they do not govern"). No Conference would presume to tell a group what to do. Some Conference advisory actions of interest that would attest to this: 1951 It was recommended that: In future years, A.A. textbook literature should have Conference approval. (Agenda Committee) Prior to the vote on this subject, it was pointed out that adoption of the suggestion would not preclude the continued issuance of various printed documents by non-Foundation sources. No desire to review, edit or censor non-Foundation material is implied. The objective is to provide, in the future, a means of distinguishing Foundation literature from that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests. 1961: The Committee recommended that G.S.O. explore the possibility of preparing a more adequate description of Conference-approved literature. 1964: Regarding pamphlets and literature other than that which is Conference-approved being displayed or sold at area and state conferences, it was the sense of the meeting that we have no authority in this area. It is to be noted that all Conference-approved literature should be made available at A.A. get-togethers. 1972: It be suggested that when a local A.A. facility (central office, intergroup, group, etc.) sells non-Conference-approved literature, it be clearly designated as such. The Conference has always voted to keep the two types of literature separate and clearly identified. It has never voted to ban non-Conference-approved literature. If you visit GSO in NY and go to the archives exhibit area, you will see an entire wall of book cases filled with literature that is not Conference-approved but very relevant to alcoholism and recovery. Visitors are encouraged to use the reading area to review them. My last visit was a few years ago but I don't think anything has changed. Cheers Arthur ************************************* AAHL Message 4223 "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) Does anyone have a copy of the article published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's entitled "What is Conference Approved Literature?" I believe it was from the August 1976 edition. I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a box but can't find it at the moment. It appears from meetings I have gone to,lately and from some posts on the Internet, there has to be a reminder of what exactly conference approval really means. Some AA members of today tout loudly and with venom that conference approval means that ONLY conference approved literature should be read by AA members. No mention of so-called non-approved materials should be made at meetings and some even mention that they have seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS stating that ONLY conference-approved literature is allowed at meetings. Can someone post that article as it is an official AAWS document defining policy on the use, reading of and having literature other than conference-approved at meetings. Also, does anyone have any documentation from AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does oppose non-conference approved literature and its use by AA members. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4233. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: conference-approved From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 7:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII WHAT DOES “CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE” MEAN? Service Material From G.S.O. "Conference-approved" – What It Means to You The term “Conference-approved” describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the A.A. Fellowship. The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does not imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read. Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of A.A.’s from all over the United States and Canada read and express opinions at every stage of production. How To Tell What Is and What Is Not Conference-approved Look for the statement on books, pamphlets and films: "This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature" All “A.A. Literature” Is Not Conference-approved Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as "A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. – publishers of Conference-approved literature), and central offices or intergroups – rather they complement each other. The Conference does not disapprove of such material. G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins. Available at Most A.A. Groups Most local A.A. groups purchase and display a representative sampling of Conference-approval pamphlets, and usually carry a supply of hardcover books. Conference-approved literature may be available at central offices and intergroups, or it may be ordered directly from G.S.O. Groups normally offer pamphlets free of charge, and the books at cost. Copyright Conference-approved literature is copyrighted with the Copyright Office, Library of Congress, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. To insure the continued integrity of A.A. literature, and to make sure the A.A. recovery programs will not be distorted or diluted, permission to reprint must be obtained from A.A.W.S. in writing. However, A.A. newsletters, bulletins, or meeting lists have blanket permission to use the material, providing proper credit to insure that the copyrights of A.A. literature are protected. The A.A. Preamble is copyrighted by The A.A. Grapevine, Inc. (not by A.A. World Services). Beneath it, these words should appear: Reprinted with permission of the A.A. Grapevine, Inc. The Steps and Traditions should be followed by these words: Reprinted with Permission of A.A. World Services, Inc. ******************************** AAHL Message 4223 "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) Does anyone have a copy of the article published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's entitled "What is Conference Approved Literature?" I believe it was from the August 1976 edition. I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a box but can't find it at the moment. It appears from meetings I have gone to,lately and from some posts on the Internet, there has to be a reminder of what exactly conference approval really means. Some AA members of today tout loudly and with venom that conference approval means that ONLY conference approved literature should be read by AA members. No mention of so-called non-approved materials should be made at meetings and some even mention that they have seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS stating that ONLY conference-approved literature is allowed at meetings. Can someone post that article as it is an official AAWS document defining policy on the use, reading of and having literature other than conference-approved at meetings. Also, does anyone have any documentation from AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does oppose non-conference approved literature and its use by AA members. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4234. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: conference-approved From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 12:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Gary Becktell, Jeff Your, James Blair, and Tom White - - - - From "Gary Becktell" (gk at kitcarson.net) Mitchell, Below is a little of that article, including the exact issue Volume and #. This is all I have: GSO Box 4-5-9 1978 (Volume 23, No 4) Any literature that pertains to the principles of AA or is approved by a Group Conscience - is perfectly acceptable to be read by any AA member or in an AA meeting. "WHAT CONFERENCED-APPROVED MEANS" GSO Box 4-5-9 1978 (Volume 23, No 4) AA's General Service Office said: "It does not mean the Conference disapproves of any other publications. Many local A.A. central offices publish their own meeting lists. A.A. as a whole does not oppose these, any more than A.A. disapproves of the Bible or any other publications from any source that A.A.'s find useful. What any A.A. member reads is no business of G.S.O., or of the Conference, naturally." - - - - From: Jeff Your (jyour at jcu.edu) From GSO Box 4-5-9 (Volume 23, No 4) "Any literature that pertains to the principles of AA or is approved by a GROUP CONSCIENCE - is perfectly acceptable to be read by any AA member or in an AA meeting." As cited at http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaconferenceapproved.html - - - - James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) There have been strong Conference Advisory Actions on the display of non-conference approved literature but of course they are only suggestions :-) Jim - - - - From: Tom White (tomwhite at cableone.net) Mitchell: I wouldn't go looking for authoritative GSO "statements" on this subject, since the literature read at meetings is the business of the individual group and of no "governing" body, of which there ain't supposed to be any in AA. Hallelujah! Tom W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4235. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Date of White Light experience at Towns From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2007 9:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W's sober date is December 11, 1934. See "Pass It On" pg 104 for an image of his discharge slip from Towns Hospital - it shows an "admitted" date of 12/11/34 and "discharged" date of 12/18/34. December 11, 1934 is the date Bill W had his last drink on the way to, and at, Towns Hospital. Bill's profound spiritual experience (as noted in several sources) occurred after he was visited by Ebby in Towns Hospital. Ebby's visit could have occurred anywhere from the day following Bill's admission to the hospital up to 2 or 3 days after. I personally lean toward December 14 as the date of Bill's experience (although it's a close toss-up with December 13 as the possible date). Different written sources give different inferences of a possible date. Specific dates in AA history are not the easiest to determine or reach consensus on (Dr Bob's sober date being a prime example of that). Following is (as best as I can reconstruct it, from a variety of written sources) a timeline of Bill W receiving a message of recovery from Ebby T and the beginning of his own carrying the message to other alcoholics. Source references: AABB (Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book), AACOA (AA Comes of Age), AGAA (The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B) BW-RT (Bill W by Robert Thomsen), BW-FH (Bill W by Francis Hartigan), BW-40 (Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography), EBBY (Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B), GB (Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson), GTBT (Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing), LOH (The Language of the Heart), LR (Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson), NG (Not God, by Ernest Kurtz), NW (New Wine, by Mel B), PIO (Pass It On), RAA (The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman), SD (Slaying the Dragon, by William L White), SM (AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service), SW (Silkworth - The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, by Dale Mitchell). Nov (late), Ebby T, while staying at the Calvary Mission and working with the Oxford Group, heard about Bill W’s problems with drinking. He phoned Lois who invited him over for dinner. (EBBY 66) Nov (late), Ebby visited Bill W at 182 Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one alcoholic talking to another.” (AACOA vii, 58-59) A few days later, Ebby returned with Shep C. They both spoke to Bill about the Oxford Group. Bill did not think too highly of Shep. Lois recalled that Ebby visited several times, once even staying for dinner. (AACOA vii, NG 17-18, 311, BW-FH 57-58, NW 22-23, PIO 111-116, BW-RT 187-192) Dec 7, Bill W decided to investigate the Calvary Mission on 23rd St. He showed up drunk with a drinking companion found along the way (Alec the Finn). Bill kept interrupting the service wanting to speak. On the verge of being ejected, Ebby came by and fed Bill a plate of beans. Bill later joined the penitents and drunkenly “testified” at the meeting. (AACOA 59-60, BW-40 136-137, NG 18-19, BW-FH 60, NW 23, PIO 116-119, BW-RT 193-196, AGAA 156- 159, EBBY 66-69) Dec 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got financial help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31). Dec 14 (possibly 13), Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell into a deep depression (his “deflation at depth”) and had a profound spiritual experience after crying out “If there be a God, will he show himself.” Bill called Dr Silkworth to ask if he was going crazy. Dr Silkworth later assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would later refer to this as his “white flash” or “hot flash” experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279) Note: and it sometimes raises the hackles of AA members, Bill W was subjected to something called the “belladonna cure.” The regimen primarily involved “purging and puking” aided by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174). What role the belladonna may have played in Bill's experience is undetermined. Dec 15 (possibly 14), Ebby (or possibly Rowland H) brought Bill W a copy of William James' book "The Varieties of Religious Experience." Bill was deeply inspired by the book. It revealed three key points for recovery: 1) calamity or complete defeat in some vital area of life (hitting bottom), 2) admission of defeat (surrender) and 3) appeal to a higher power for help (acceptance). The book strongly influenced early AAs and is cited in the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, SI 26, BW-40 150-152, NG 20-24, 312-313, NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28) Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG’s US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park Ave) and 21st Street. Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held) was at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144) Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at Stewart’s Cafeteria near the Calvary Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, NG 314) Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4236. . . . . . . . . . . . Non-conference-approved literature From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2007 2:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Non-conference-approved literature: A short (not at all complete) selection of books on AA history drawn from Arthur Sheehan (messages 3370 and 4235), Robert Stonebraker, and others who have posted messages in the AAHistoryLovers in recent months. It is necessary to read works of this sort if one is to have a good knowledge of AA history. Yet most of these works will not be found on the shelves of ordinary commercial bookstores. If we do not make them available for AA members to browse through at AA intergroup offices and the like, most of our members will never even know of their existence. Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous by Dick B Bill W: A Different Kind of Hero by Tom White Bill W by Francis Hartigan Bill W by Robert Thomsen Bill W: My First 40 Years, autobiography Children of the Healer: Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by Christine Brewer Diary of Two Motorcycle Hobos by Lois Wilson, edited by Ellie Van V. Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing Harry Tiebout: The Collected Writings How It Worked: The Story of Clarence H. Snyder and ... Cleveland, Ohio by Mitchell K. Lois Remembers by Lois Wilson Lois Wilson Story: When Love Is Not Enough by William G. Borchert Mrs Marty Mann by Sally and David R Brown My Name Is Bill: Bill Wilson -- His Life and ... Alcoholics Anonymous by Susan Cheever My Search for Bill W by Mel B New Wine by Mel B Not God by Ernest Kurtz Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill Pittman Silkworth: The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks by Dale Mitchell Sister Ignatia: Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous by Mary C Darrah Slaying the Dragon by William L White Soul of Sponsorship ... Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters by Robert Fitzgerald Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery by Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones, and Joan Ziegler IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4237. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: conference-approved From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2007 1:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII With respect to Arthur S's statement below: There is a very limited number of people who even have access to the literature with its changes prior to the vote (substantial changes or new literature). The Delegates may have an opportunity to review the material immediately prior to the vote, but the actual changes, or new literature, is only distributed to the people who are on the committee for formal review and input, and they make written recommendations regarding the changes. A point of interest here is that the groups (and therefore individual members) have no access to the literature (new or significant changes) prior to it being approved and published. Sort of goes against the concept of AA being run by the groups. Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) are often published for review to the groups. It is just significant changes, rewrites and new literature which is not. I have been informed this is due to a fear of copyright issues and the material being purloined by others. Jim > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > of literature prior to voting on it. The > review is usually done by a committee of > several Delegates. The remainder of the > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > for/against the literature based on the > recommendation of the committee (that's how > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > changes slipped past Conference review). While > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > prior to voting. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4238. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2007 2:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur S" wrote about the OG alcoholics going to Stewart's Cafeteria after OG meetings. The "alcoholic squadron" of the OG used to meet in Stewart's Cafeteria in 1935, which was the exact period that the startup staff of the Partisan Review met in the same establishment late at night. The two groups no doubt interacted, as they stood in line for apple pie and coffee. I recall reading that Stewart's was open all night, and had an automat format. There must have been an interesting contrast in the discussions of the two groups, the drunks complaining about the "churchies" from the OG, and the communists complaining about the opium of the people. john lee where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio > Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, > Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at > Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary > Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and > Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, > NG 314) > > Cheers > Arthur > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4239. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Australia Pt 2 and t/y Nell Wing From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2007 9:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Post 1 shows the two documents that started AA formation outside the western hemisphere. Post 2 is my interpretation of the letters and also a remembrance of Nell Wing. The first letter was written by Dr Minogue to the American Journal of Psychiatry, asking for information about starting AA. The letter was forwarded to The Central office and Bill Wilson at the Vessay St and Cort.7-3159 as the phone number. I'm not sure if the writing on the 1st letter is Bills instructions to Bobbie Burger about what to write in her response, but the response give a good insight as to what AA was like during the Second World War.The letters were sent to me on a cd along with some tapes of early AA meetings in Australia by a friend Ron C-archivist for Australia. What made me think of this was an e mail I received from him about Nell Wing.He was good friends with her and still communicates with her Nephew Bill W.(not Wilson) I had sent him a card that the funeral home was giving out in "memory of Nell Wing." He wrote an article that was published for Australian AA's that I am sure he would have no problem with my sharing with fellow AAHL's.- Nell Wing was a non alcoholic servant of AA who was on her way to Mexico in 1947 to study sculpture and needed a part time job to earn some money to tide her over while she was studying. Nell had been discharged from the navy. She went into an employment agency and told them of her requirements. The person in the agency whispered to her that there was a job going in the office of Alcoholics Anonymous. There was not a lot known about AA at that time by the general public. I don't know what the person thought would happen to Nell but she was able to smile and say I'll take the job. As the story goes the rest is history. She became the receptionist in the AA office at Lexington Ave New York City. Later she became the Bill. Wilson's secretary for the next seventeen years until his death in January 1971. Nell then set up the Archives and worked there till 1982. I first met Nell in 1977 in the Archives and we became friends and corresponded until she went into assisted living in New Jersey. I told Nell that I would like to meet Lois Wilson. Nell rang Lois at Steppingstones and Lois graciously asks me to come up by train to Bedford Hills. Lois was a very small was a very small woman as most people would know. She was standing besides a big American car and I was wondering if she was going to drive. Not at that time knowing much about her story. She welcomed me in her Brooklyn accent and we drove off and Lois remarked that she had received a ticket for speeding when she was eighty years old. She was a very good driver although she could hardly see over the dashboard. I was blesses to correspond with Lois for the rest of her life and visited her many times. I traveled NYC regularly on ships and as a visitor. Nell Wing was the daughter that Lois and Bill never had although in a sense they had thousands of children. Nell was a companion of Loisâ for forty five years. She visited the Wilson's almost every weekend and a room off the living room is still known as Nellâs room. I visited Steppingstones sometimes with Nell and Lois was a good hostess. I had the privilege of sleeping in Nellâs room when I stayed with Lois. Nell was on the board of The Steppingstones Foundation which Lois set up in 1977 eleven years before she died in October 1988. It is open house for all who wish to visit all that is need is a phone call to Director of The Foundation Annah Perch. I was also fortunate to join Nell at couple of International Conventions and a couple dinners at the opening of the General Service Conference. I would imagine that Nell would have known Bill and Lois better than anyone as in her work she was Bills constant companion. She told me lots of stories about Bill and Lois most of them heart warming and some sad but always inspiring as time went on. Nellâs nephew has been a tower of strength for Nell as she grew older. There is a story that Nell looked after Bill W.(her nephew) and then Bill W.(her nephew) was looking after Nell. Bill has been a wonderful caretaker and has looked after Nell and her affairs for many years. It is great to know Bill and to be his friend. I feel very few people would know the difficult times for Nell when Bill Wilson was suffering his deep depressions. She did speak about his problems with a lot of love and compassion. Nell I will never forget your love and kindness to me. That is the person that you were and it was not just me but when I was in your company you extended that same love and kindness to others. I will never forget you Nell as you have touched my heart many, many times. I was able to visit Nell several times in her last years in New Jersey. I fully believe she is resting in peace with God for the work she did for Alcoholics Anonymous and in particular for Bill and Lois. She has gone to a well earned rest and reward. As Bill her beloved nephew stated she is now reunited with Bill and Lois. Nell you will always be in my heart. Ron C. - Australia I edited his response for clarity because one Bill W was Bill Wilson and the other Bill W. is Nell's nephew. I too am blessed to know Nell's nephew Bill and also Ron C. I hope to travel to Australia one day soon to not only visit that beautiful country but also to make a few meetings in a place that started AA outside of North America. Thank God for these people being placed in my life. Your's in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz going to Phoenix AZ, Sept 6-9 for the 11th National Archives Workshop ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4240. . . . . . . . . . . . That should be Johantgen''s Jewelry, not Hantgen''s From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I goofed. That should have been Johantgen, not Hantgen. John K. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "johnpublico" wrote: > > Hi Jerry, > > Thanks for the great info about the Camel Pins. > > After snooping around the internet for a bit, > I think the jewelry store is Hantgen's Jewelry. > They are still in Minneapolis, at the Crystal > Shopping Centre. (I think Crystal is a > neighborhood or town within the city limits, > like Fridley). > > Phone number is (763) 537-7233. > > Let us know what you find out and whether > they take mail orders (I'm in North Carolina). > > John K. > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "oys.jerry5672" > wrote: > > > > I was recently doing some research on sobriety > > lapel pins and talked to a employee at > > Wendell's located in Anoka MN. (They were > > formerly located in Minneapolis MN.). She > > put me onto a man named Bill W. (Ironic or > > Coincidence) that worked for Wendell's. He > > shared with me that a man named Frank B. made > > the mold for the Camel Pin. Frank was a > > member of the Mother Club in Minneapolis > > (Now known as 2218). The pins in turn were > > made by Jo Hantigans Jewelry which I believe > > was located in Minneapolis at the time. They > > are now located in Crystal MN. and currently > > have pins in stock. The oldest one I have > > was my fathers and it has a screw on back and > > those made today have a clutch back. They > > are dark maroon in color rimed in gold with > > 24 in the center and approx. 3/8 X 3/8 of an > > inch in size. I purchased some of them a > > number of years ago at a cost of $3.00 to > > $6.00. > > > > Therefore from my perception the Birthplace/ > > Orgin of the Camel Pin is Minneapolis, > > Minnesota, in the 1940's. > > > > At this point in time again from my perception > > I do not believe that Frank B. made the mold. > > I would tend to believe that Frank designed > > the pin. As a Goldsmith would have made the > > mold. > > > > I plan on visiting Jo Hantigans to gather > > more information. Which means that "More > > Will Be Revealed". > > > > Jerry Oys > > Southern Minnesota Area 36 Archivist > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4241. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Non-conference-approved literature From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2007 12:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII notes taken from the AAWS publication [M-39]: ADVISORY ACTIONS OF THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS In 1952, with full representation, the Conference reviewed and considered a number of policy problems affecting the movement as a whole and initiated a planned program of Conference-approved literature service. 1954 It was recommended that: All Conference-approved literature have on its face an identifying symbol. All reprints such as those reproducing material from Fortune, Saturday Evening Post and Good Housekeeping, bear the credit line at the top of the cover and that the cover be in white to distinguish such reprints from Conference-approved literature. 1964 It was recommended that: Regarding pamphlets and literature other than that which is Conference-approved being displayed or sold at area and state conferences, it was the sense of the meeting that we have no authority in this area. It is to be noted that all Conference-approved literature should be made available at A.A. get-togethers. 1969 It was recommended that: More effective ways of displaying Conference-approved literature be explored; that the delegates be polled for their suggestions and results be made available to A.A. groups. 1972 It was recommended that: It be suggested that when a local A.A. facility (central office, intergroup, group, etc.) sells non-Conference-approved literature, it be clearly designated as such. 1974 It was recommended that: Previous Conference action to display non-Conference-approved literature and Conference-approved literature separately be reaffirmed. 1975 It was recommended that: Previous Conference action to display non-Conference-approved literature and Conference-approved literature separately be reaffirmed. 1977 It was recommended that: It was suggested that A.A. groups be discouraged from selling literature not distributed by the General Service Office and the Grapevine. (Floor Action) 1986 It was recommended that: The Conference reaffirm the spirit of the 1977 Conference action regarding group literature displays, and recommended the suggestion that A.A. groups be encouraged to display or sell only literature published and distributed by the General Service Office, the A.A. Grapevine and other A.A. entities. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4242. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: conference-approved From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2007 9:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with me at all over the years. Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any means, but with his very factual statement of the notion of "copyright protection" being used by the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an excuse to withhold review copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors can shed some light on the situation on whether or not there are valid copyright concerns involved. To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny Delegates (or for that matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of literature well prior to its publication. Outside of Directories there is no time-critical aspect to any publication nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't be added on to the publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO uses a notion of a "work in progress" to make the entire process top-secret and known only to a select few and then claims copies of the completed work cannot be circulated in order to protect the copyright. Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review planned changes to the "AA Group" pamphlet and received the response that it could not be done in order to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't seem to hold water to me, particularly in an age of digital rights management. My understanding of the copyright process is that an author need only mark a work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order to establish initial legal intellectual property rights prior to going through the full legal copyright process. Is this true? Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of james.bliss@comcast.net Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved With respect to Arthur S's statement below: There is a very limited number of people who even have access to the literature with its changes prior to the vote (substantial changes or new literature). The Delegates may have an opportunity to review the material immediately prior to the vote, but the actual changes, or new literature, is only distributed to the people who are on the committee for formal review and input, and they make written recommendations regarding the changes. A point of interest here is that the groups (and therefore individual members) have no access to the literature (new or significant changes) prior to it being approved and published. Sort of goes against the concept of AA being run by the groups. Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) are often published for review to the groups. It is just significant changes, rewrites and new literature which is not. I have been informed this is due to a fear of copyright issues and the material being purloined by others. Jim > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > of literature prior to voting on it. The > review is usually done by a committee of > several Delegates. The remainder of the > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > for/against the literature based on the > recommendation of the committee (that's how > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > changes slipped past Conference review). While > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > prior to voting. > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4243. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: conference-approved/structure From: tracy flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2007 4:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I wanted to take a moment to clear up some of the confusion regarding the conference. The information does go out to all the area Delegates with regards to what will be happening and be being discussed at the spring conference. The Delegate is going to be on a specific committee and that Delegate will get all or most of the committee specific material. They trust the other Delegates "group conscience" (Concept 3). Many areas hold day long or weekend long workshops where they discuss, with anyone who wants to attend, what will be reviewed and voted on at the Conference. Speak with your Delegate if there’s nothing like that in your area. The Service Manual, which was initially the Third Legacy Manual (first draft written by Bill W. in 1951), describes in detail the structure of AA. The most important piece in reference to this subject would be Concept 9 and the full article contained in there from the 1959 Grapevine: “Leadership in AA: Ever a Vital Need.” (I wont type it all here) This addresses the fact that when an alcoholic is in a meeting and voting for someone, that they don’t vote for the most popular. The alcoholic must vote for the most knowledgeable and responsible person, whether they like them or not. The votes will be cast and ultimately go down to the Delegate. That Delegate votes at the General Service Conference. The groups today do have a delegated vote on everything. The groups do have the final say. Arthur S. referenced the on-line meeting statement. When that came out, the groups went back to their Delegates, which in turn went to New York, and the on-line statement was removed from the Forward to the Fourth Edition. The groups do have the final say as our history and literature clearly state. Warmest Wishes, Tracy F Chicago james.bliss@comcast.net wrote: With respect to Arthur S's statement below: There is a very limited number of people who even have access to the literature with its changes prior to the vote (substantial changes or new literature). The Delegates may have an opportunity to review the material immediately prior to the vote, but the actual changes, or new literature, is only distributed to the people who are on the committee for formal review and input, and they make written recommendations regarding the changes. A point of interest here is that the groups (and therefore individual members) have no access to the literature (new or significant changes) prior to it being approved and published. Sort of goes against the concept of AA being run by the groups. Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) are often published for review to the groups. It is just significant changes, rewrites and new literature which is not. I have been informed this is due to a fear of copyright issues and the material being purloined by others. Jim > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > of literature prior to voting on it. The > review is usually done by a committee of > several Delegates. The remainder of the > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > for/against the literature based on the > recommendation of the committee (that's how > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > changes slipped past Conference review). While > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > prior to voting. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4244. . . . . . . . . . . . When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used From: Arnello Sirignano . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2007 8:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Fellows and Fellowettes Maybe someone here can help me with something. I had always thought the name for our society came from the title of our basic text book named "Alcoholics Anonymous," right? And didn't come into use until after the Big Book was published. So why then does it mention "Alcoholics Anonymous" in the first printing of the First Edition of the Big Book? In the story titled "A Different Slant," the author writes, "The doctor at this hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon me." Maybe I'm just missing something. But please explain if you can. Thank You, Arnello Sirignano [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4245. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s sobriety date was 12/12/34 From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2007 5:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W's sobriety date is 12/12/34. He was obviously drinking on 12/11/34 to and at Towns Hospital. IMO his first day of sobriety is 12/12/34. He made the decision to stop on 12/11/34 but actually stopped on 12/12/34. Similar to the three frogs on the log. Paul --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Arthur S" wrote: > > Bill W's sober date is December 11, 1934. > See "Pass It On" pg 104 for an image of his > discharge slip from Towns Hospital - it shows > an "admitted" date of 12/11/34 and "discharged" > date of 12/18/34. > > December 11, 1934 is the date Bill W had > his last drink on the way to, and at, > Towns Hospital. > > Bill's profound spiritual experience (as noted > in several sources) occurred after he was > visited by Ebby in Towns Hospital. Ebby's > visit could have occurred anywhere from the > day following Bill's admission to the hospital > up to 2 or 3 days after. I personally lean > toward December 14 as the date of Bill's > experience (although it's a close toss-up > with December 13 as the possible date). > Different written sources give different > inferences of a possible date. Specific dates > in AA history are not the easiest to determine > or reach consensus on (Dr Bob's sober date > being a prime example of that). > > Following is (as best as I can reconstruct > it, from a variety of written sources) a > timeline of Bill W receiving a message of > recovery from Ebby T and the beginning of > his own carrying the message to other > alcoholics. > > Source references: > > AABB (Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book), > AACOA (AA Comes of Age), > AGAA (The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics > Anonymous, by Dick B) > BW-RT (Bill W by Robert Thomsen), > BW-FH (Bill W by Francis Hartigan), > BW-40 (Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography), > EBBY (Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by > Mel B), > GB (Getting Better Inside Alcoholics > Anonymous by Nan Robertson), > GTBT (Grateful to Have Been There by > Nell Wing), > LOH (The Language of the Heart), > LR (Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson), > NG (Not God, by Ernest Kurtz), > NW (New Wine, by Mel B), > PIO (Pass It On), > RAA (The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by > Bill Pittman), > SD (Slaying the Dragon, by William L White), > SM (AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts > for World Service), > SW (Silkworth - The Little Doctor Who Loved > Drunks, by Dale Mitchell). > > Nov (late), Ebby T, while staying at the > Calvary Mission and working with the Oxford > Group, heard about Bill W's problems with > drinking. He phoned Lois who invited him over > for dinner. (EBBY 66) > > Nov (late), Ebby visited Bill W at 182 Clinton > St and shared his recovery experience "one > alcoholic talking to another." (AACOA vii, > 58-59) A few days later, Ebby returned with > Shep C. They both spoke to Bill about the > Oxford Group. Bill did not think too highly > of Shep. Lois recalled that Ebby visited > several times, once even staying for dinner. > (AACOA vii, NG 17-18, 311, BW-FH 57-58, > NW 22-23, PIO 111-116, BW-RT 187-192) > > Dec 7, Bill W decided to investigate the > Calvary Mission on 23rd St. He showed up drunk > with a drinking companion found along the way > (Alec the Finn). Bill kept interrupting the > service wanting to speak. On the verge of being > ejected, Ebby came by and fed Bill a plate > of beans. Bill later joined the penitents and > drunkenly "testified" at the meeting. (AACOA > 59-60, BW-40 136-137, NG 18-19, BW-FH 60, > NW 23, PIO 116-119, BW-RT 193-196, AGAA 156- > 159, EBBY 66-69) > > Dec 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to > Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four > bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got > financial help from his mother, Emily, for > the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA > 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31). > > Dec 14 (possibly 13), Ebby visited Bill W at > Towns Hospital and told him about the Oxford > Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell > into a deep depression (his "deflation at > depth") and had a profound spiritual experience > after crying out "If there be a God, will he > show himself." Bill called Dr Silkworth to ask > if he was going crazy. Dr Silkworth later > assured Bill he was not crazy and told him > to hang on to what he had found. In a lighter > vein, Bill and others would later refer to this > as his "white flash" or "hot flash" experience. > (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, > NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, > LOH 278-279) > > Note: and it sometimes raises the hackles of > AA members, Bill W was subjected to something > called the "belladonna cure." The regimen > primarily involved "purging and puking" aided > by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna, > a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms > of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85, > BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174). > What role the belladonna may have played in > Bill's experience is undetermined. > > Dec 15 (possibly 14), Ebby (or possibly Rowland > H) brought Bill W a copy of William James' > book "The Varieties of Religious Experience." > Bill was deeply inspired by the book. It > revealed three key points for recovery: > 1) calamity or complete defeat in some vital > area of life (hitting bottom), 2) admission > of defeat (surrender) and 3) appeal to a > higher power for help (acceptance). The book > strongly influenced early AAs and is cited in > the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, > SI 26, BW-40 150-152, NG 20-24, 312-313, > NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28) > > Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began > working with drunks. He and Lois attended > Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C > at Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was > the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG's > US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave > (now Park Ave) and 21st Street. Calvary House > (where OG meetings were usually held) was > at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was > located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16, > AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, > PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144) > > Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, > Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at > Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary > Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and > Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, > NG 314) > > Cheers > Arthur > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4246. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2007 9:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There was a Stewarts in the Village, and I am curious to know if it was the same one frequented by Bill W. johnlawlee@yahoo.com writes: "Arthur S" ... wrote about the OG alcoholics going to Stewart's Cafeteria after OG meetings. The "alcoholic squadron" of the OG used to meet in Stewart's Cafeteria in 1935, which was the exact period that the startup staff of the Partisan Review met in the same establishment late at night. The two groups no doubt interacted, as they stood in line for apple pie and coffee. I recall reading that Stewart's was open all night, and had an automat format. There must have been an interesting contrast in the discussions of the two groups, the drunks complaining about the "churchies" from the OG, and the communists complaining about the opium of the people. john lee where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio > Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, > Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at > Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary > Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and > Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, > NG 314) > > Cheers > Arthur > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4247. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gay groups listed in schedules From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 8:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Li Lightfoot - There is a wonderful new book coming out later this spring, A History of Gay People in Alcoholics Anonymous: From the Beginning (Haworth Press), by Audrey Borden. She's a Northern Californian and might have the information you're seeking - or at least have an idea where you could inquire. Her email address is (audreyborden at earthlink.net) Good luck! Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown, coauthor with David R. Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4248. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gay groups listed in schedules From: Jeff Your . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 3:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See http://www.iac-aa.org/ International Advisory Council of homosexual men and women in Alcoholics Anonymous IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4249. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Australia Pt 2 and t/y Nell Wing From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 1:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have the copies of the 2 letters that started AA in Australia. They did not post. If anyone wants a copy please e mail me your name and address and I'll either e mail them directly or snail mail them to you Shakey Mike G. PHX is hot in Sept. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4250. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Gay groups listed in schedules From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2007 7:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chapter 19 - Special Composition Groups in A.A. (from an unpublished AA history book by former GSO General Manager Bob P.) Homosexual Alcoholics Homosexual -i.e., gay and lesbian - alcoholics have found help and recovery in Alcoholics Anonymous from its very early days. Bill W. refers to them in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions and in a 1958 letter expresses deep sympathy and concern. The dedication and talents of gay and lesbian A.A. members have often led them into service, where they have contributed enormously in all capacities including Delegate and Trustee. Almost never overt in their lifestyle, they have been completely accepted. In 1975, Lillen Fifield published a study of alcohol abuse in the Los Angeles gay community entitled, "On My Way to Nowhere: Alienated, Isolated, Drunk." Its title suggested the author's theory to account for the high incidence of alcoholism among homosexuals - which is reflected in the number of homosexual A.A.'s in that city. The point was made that A.A. serves unique needs for gay and lesbian alcoholics over and above those of straight alcoholics. The former are frequently estranged from their families at an early age, and hence feel rejected, lonely and "different" -- which makes them especially vulnerable to alcoholism. Add to this that their social life usually revolves around gay bars, partying and drinking. When they reach their bottom and come to A.A., they find in recovery not only a new way of life and new values, but also an acceptance and, indeed, a new "family" they have never had before. Therefore, in large cities with a significant homosexual population - New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Washington, Boston -- gays and lesbians came to A.A as early as the 1940's and in increasing numbers ever since. Going back to the late '40's and more noticeably in the '50's and '60's, there were groups in certain neighborhoods such as Greenwich Village and the East Side of Manhattan in New York, and downtown San Francisco, which were primarily composed of gay people, though they were not listed or designated as gay groups. "We were getting along fine," recalls a gay A.A. member in San Francisco, "with plenty of gay people getting sober in groups downtown or Mann or East Bay which were predominantly gay but also had a rich diversity of people." However, although the gays identified with the drinking and the feelings of straight A.A.'s, they sometimes had difficulty being comfortable or openly sharing their experiences and problems. And so, in San Francisco in about 1967, some people felt they wanted a group which was exclusively gay. It is recalled that there was considerable debate and controversy within the gay A.A. community whether or not to do it, but it was finally decided to give it a try downtown at the Episcopal Church on Fell Street. At first, the members identified themselves with names and "I'm a gay alcoholic." Shortly, however, most of them dropped saying "gay" and said simply, "I'm an alcoholic." "We regarded this just as a place where homosexual alcoholics could come who were intimidated in coming to a straight A.A. group," a founder says. "We had no idea of creating something in which people would come in and get sober and spend their entire A.A. life. But that's what's happened, and if we hadn't done it, someone else would." And someone else was indeed doing it in other cities. In Washington, D.C., for example, four alcoholics -- two gay and two lesbian -- gathered for a meeting in a private home on December 8, 1971. All of them found an exclusively homosexual group extremely helpful. They continued meeting on Sundays at two homes in nearby Virginia until the summer of 1972, when Cade W. and Bob W approached Fr. Goodrich of St.James Episcopal Church and requested meeting space. He gave his permission. A later pastor said, "If it had gone to the Vestry Council, it would have been turned down." Soon a Wednesday Step meeting was added to the Sunday meeting at St.James. Besides Cade and Bob, early members included Blanche H., Gerry Kay T., Tom H., Ray C., Vern W., Barbara G., Nancy T. and Dennis L. In early 1974, Ray C. started the St.Margaret's open speaker meeting on Friday evenings. The Lambda group in Virginia followed on Saturday nights. A Big Book meeting began at St. Thomas in late '75, and the Montrose group began a month later. A.A. groups for gays continued to grow and in 1985 Washington, Maryland and Virginia had 15 groups with about 40 meetings a week. As similar patterns of growth occurred in other cities, and A.A. groups for gays began to appear in other locations, the need was felt for a directory of gay/lesbian groups. (Since 1974, they were listed, without special designation, in A.A.'s Directories for U.S. /Canada, by Conference action. See pp. XX-XX). For this purpose as well as to provide a contact point for homosexual alcoholics, the International Advisory council for Homosexual Men and Women in Alcoholics Anonymous was organized. They also publish a helpful pamphlet. The Council is listed in the front of the A.A. Directories, along with contacts for other special composition groups, and the Council has worked with G.S.O. to help provide workshops and social events for gay/lesbian A.A.'s at International Conventions since 1980. However, gay members in other cities are quick to point out that the Council does not speak for all gay A.A.'s nor is it responsible to them. "Some of us out here," says a member in San Francisco, "area little nervous and a little resentful at the recognition given to this particular bunch." The question of listing groups for homosexuals raged in Los Angeles (and some other localities) long after the Conference had decided it at the national level. The problem in Southern California was due not only to the large number of such groups, but it was further complicated by the existence of a whole coterie of groups for gays who called themselves "Alcoholics Together." They pressured the Los Angeles central Office to list them in the local meeting directory. Actually, however, "Alcoholics Together" were religious in origin and, though they patterned themselves after all aspects of the A.A. program, they were not A.A. - which finally settled the issue. In 1975, an ad hoc group of gay A.A.'s in Northern California decided they would put on an AA. round-up. A gay member who tried to help them says the trouble was, none of the sponsoring group had more than two years sobriety. "They made a lot of mistakes, including putting out a flyer that was carefully designed to offend almost everybody, without their realizing they were offending anybody." Howls of protest were heard as far as the G.S.O. in New York, and the local Delegate was asked to meet with them and try to straighten them out. Subsequently, a second flyer was produced, and when it was shown to staff member Cora Louise B. during the Conference, she remarked, "My, this is as proper and decorous as an invitation to a coming-out party in Greenville, Mississippi !" That first round-up in 1976 was a great success, with about 200 in attendance from as far away as Vancouver, British Columbia, and Los Angeles. They immediately wanted to go home and have a similar event of their own -- and so the idea spread. The format of the ICYPAA conferences was followed in many cases. Criticism has been heard that the largest of these round-ups in New York and San Francisco, drawing around 2,000 people, have gotten far afield from A.A. in their workshops. But other recent local gatherings of gay A.A. 's have been "pure, basic A.A. - absolutely marvelous!" according to one discriminating member. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Li Lightfoot Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 6:16 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Gay groups listed in schedules Hey Folks: I am working on an article to be published in the San Francisco Fellowship's newsletter on the first Gay groups in A.A. We know that there was a lot of controversy about listing Gay and Lesbian Groups in the schedules and that this was eventually overcome. Does anyone know the details of this history or know where I might find out about it? Thanks, Li Lightfoot The Point Committee [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4251. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 5:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Stewarts cafeteria frequented by both the Alcoholic Squadron of OG and the Partisan Review staff in 1934 was located in what is now called the West Village. It would have been entertaining to overhear the arguments about God emanating from both tables. john lee pittsburgh Baileygc23@aol.com wrote: There was a Stewarts in the Village, and I am curious to know if it was the same one frequented by Bill W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4252. . . . . . . . . . . . Can an individual have only one Home Group? From: hortnwho . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 1:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I need to find out where the idea came from that we choose one home group and have a vote in only one group or hold a service position in only one group. I fully believe you choose one home group and have one vote in AA and hold a position in one group only, but in my home group some members are very strongly contesting that. I am the group's GSR and really would like to uphold the Traditions, Concepts and Warranties. I'm sure this came from somewhere, and figured here is the best place to find out. Thank You in advance. Sincerely, Lisa Ann F. member of Hot Springs AA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4253. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: conference-approved From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 6:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Arthur: I agree with you. If you wrote a thing and can prove it, your copyright is firm IMHO. Seems to me there must be some other arcane considerations at work? Tom W., Odessa, TX - - - - On Apr 14, 2007, at 8:40 AM, Arthur S wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with me at all over > the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any means, but > with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright protection" > being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an excuse to withhold > review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors can shed some > light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid copyright concerns > involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny Delegates (or > for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of literature well > prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical aspect to any > publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO uses a notion > of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process top-secret and known > only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed work cannot be > circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review planned changes to > the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it could not be done > in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't seem to hold > water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an author need > only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order to establish > initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going through the full > legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > james.bliss@comcast.net > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4254. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2007 7:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Chris B - In 1959 Lewis F Presnall became the first director of the Office of Industrial Services, established by Marty Mann in her organization, National Council on Alcoholism (NCA). His outreach to business and industry helped support the handful of existing Employee Assistance Programs (EAPs), and encourage and train personnel for new programs. To quote from Marty's biography: "Marty's rallying cry became 'Save the man, save the investment!' ...NCA's most successful programs became their industrial ones, because those employees were highly motivated to recover in order to keep their jobs. (Marty quoted a 75 percent recovery rate.)" For more information about Lewis Presnall, I would contact the national offices of what is now National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence (NCADD) in New York City. There have been some staff changes, but this main number should get you started: 212 269 5691. In addition, the Employee Assistance Profes- sionals Association (EAPA) might have some information for you. Their URL is http://www.eapassn.org/public/pages/index.cfm?pageid=325 . Shalom - Sally _____________________________ Rev Sally Brown coauthor with David R. Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4255. . . . . . . . . . . . Stewart''s Cafeteria From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 8:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm looking on google.com for information about Stewarts cafeteria... This place sounds amazing. Not only were OG and Alcoholic Squadron members frequent patrons, it was also a favorite gay spot for men wanting to sit at the window and watch the boys go by... and many theatre-ites of that era. Keep in mind, this is the depression... being in a cafeteria is a big deal. This is a description on the internet about the place... "There was a very popular meeting place in that year of the hunger and bonus marches: Stewart's Cafeteria on Sheridan Square, where the Greenwich Village Theatre, in which I had made my stage debut, had once stood. At midnight it had the festive air of Madison Square Garden on the occasion of a big fight. Here the poor and jolly have-beens, ne'er-do-wells, names-to-be, the intellectual, the bohemian, the lazy, neurotic, confused and unfortunate, the radicals, mystics, thugs, drags and sweet young people without a base collected noisily to make a very stirring music of their discord and hope. Though this cafeteria must have represented a high degree of affluence to the really hungry, it struck me as a sort of singing Hooverville. For, strangely enough, this incubator of the Depression, with many marks of waste and decay upon it, was in point of fact a place rank with promise.... " http://www.lctreview.org/article.cfm?id_issue=62892319&id_article=3057787&pa ge=1 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4256. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W.''s sobriety date From: pvttimt@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2007 5:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From pvttimt and Jim Blair From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com) Not to start or continue a controversy, but for whatever reason, I was taught early on by an old-timer who sobered up in 1953 in Cleveland that one's last drinking date is the date celebrated, not the first day of not drinking. I have no idea why he or others may have adopted this convention. - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) In my neck of the woods, early members did not celebrate a "sobriety date" but rather the date of their last drink. They did it that way in order to "remember" their last drink. Jim - - - - Original Message from: zoidhog@yahoo.com Bill W's sobriety date is 12/12/34. He was obviously drinking on 12/11/34 to and at Towns Hospital. IMO his first day of sobriety is 12/12/34. He made the decision to stop on 12/11/34 but actually stopped on 12/12/34. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4257. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Can an individual have only one Home Group? From: Frank E. Nyikos . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 1:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Frank Nyikos, Kimball Rowe, Jim Blair, Sherry Hartsell, Rotax Steve, and Baileygc23 - - - - Original question from Lisa Ann F. >I need to find out where the idea came from > that we choose one home group and have a vote > in only one group or hold a service position > in only one group. - - - - From: "Frank E. Nyikos" (fenyikos at hoosierlink.net) You can always refer to AA material and get info from the publication "Home Group - Heartbeat of AA" - - - - From: "Kimball ROWE" (roweke at msn.com) From the pamphlet "The AA Group" and the A.A. Service Manual: "Traditionally, most A.A. members through the years have found it important to belong to one group which they call 'Home Group.' This is the group where they accept responsibilities and try to sustain friendships. And although all A.A. members are usually welcome at all groups and feel at home at any of these meetings, the concept of the 'Home Group' has still remained the strongest bond between the A.A. member and the Fellowship." From the pamphlet "The AA Group" "With membership comes the right to vote upon issues that might affect the group and might also affect A.A. as a whole - a process that forms the very cornerstone of A.A.'s service structure. As with all group-conscience matters, each A.A. member has one vote; and this, ideally is voiced through his home group." My thoughts ..though not specifically stated, it is heavily implied one and only one Home Group. As I read it, I have no right to vote on matters in groups other than my Home Group. Nor should I enter into General Service or hold a group position (elected trusted servant) with a group other than my Home Group. I have no problems with being of service with another group (i.e., chairing a meeting hosted by another group, greeting people at the door, participating in another groups 7th tradition, serving coffee, reading selected passages, etc.) - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Lisa Ann wrote >I need to find out where the idea came from > that we choose one home group and have a vote > in only one group or hold a service position > in only one group. From common sense. Jim - - - - From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) Hello Lisa Ann, lets say I live in Malvern, pay taxes there, but come to a City/County Election in Hot Springs and expect to vote on days the Race Track is open! Now I may have very strong feelings about the Race dates, but I doubt they'd let me vote. Same deal for membership, at one time group membership was rigorously counted and kept track of, because there was a suggested contribution to GSO by each group of $3.65 per member per year; a penny a day. Now, lets say I want to vote at YOUR Home Group, say on putting on a big eating meeting, renting a hall, flying in "A" Speakers from back East or Calif. (which I am SURE has never been done for "The Old Grand Dad" J) but my job keeps me on the road most of the time and I won't be around to help out physically or financially with putting on or paying for the deal I want a say so in. I'm sure you get the point, One Home Group, One Vote where you are responsible for what you vote on---Where Oh Where are proponents of The Little Rock Approach Plan when one needs them J ? Lisa, I lived in Arkansas much of my sober time, had great friends in A.A., Al-anon and the Service Structure there. Tell those folks who are questioning this they need a sponsor who will encourage their search of the service manual. Sherry c.h. - - - - From: "Gallery Photography" (gallery5 at mindspring.com) I'm in agreement with you Lisa. When a member claims membership to multiple groups, I believe they are a member of no group. One must show allegiance to one group (as well as one sponsor - as many do not). What happens is; if a person has a situation they want to talk about, they'll select a group where they may hear what they want to hear (same works with multiple sponsorship). Unsure if there is a set thing for that. I'm sure it would be covered in the Concepts. Rotax Steve Nangi namaj perez - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) AA says there is no dogma. It also says the group has the right to be wrong. Bill W said that the leaders that tried to enforce laws could be promptly beached for resisting too hard the rising tide of democracy. Your group may not be aware that rule 62 still applies. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4258. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used From: Gallery Photography . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Gallery Photography and John Otis: Foreword to Second Edition says AFTER the publication of the Big Book, vs. another old tradition that it started in Cleveland. But Arthur Sheehan points to documents dating much earlier, to the summer of 1938. - - - - SPRING 1939 From: "Gallery Photography" (gallery5 at mindspring.com) In the Foreword to Second Edition (page xvii) it says: "This determination bore fruit in the spring of 1939 by the publication of this volume. The membership had then reached about 100 men and women. The fledgling society, which had been nameless, now began to be called Alcoholics Anonymous, from the title of its own book." We became "Alcoholics Anonymous" in the spring of 1939. Rotax Steve Nangi namaj perez - - - - THE CLEVELAND THEORY From: "john.otis" (suzkem at theriver.com) Hi, John Otis Miricle Valley, Arizona In the book "That Amazing Grace" by Dick B., Clarence S. from Cleveland was helped by Dr. Bob and he noticed the fighting between the different religings, went back to Cleveland and started a meeting. Someone in the meeting said Why don't we call this AA and Akron fell right into it. If we look hard enough we find answers. When they first started they called themselves The God Squad. If you can read about Cleveland AA they will tell you that is where we got our name. Love Ya, John - - - - SUMMER 1938 But Arthur Sheehan (see the next message posted on this topic) has noted the existence of documents referring to the alcoholics gathered around Bill W. and Dr. Bob as "Alcoholics Anonymous" in June and July 1938, and perhaps as early as April 1938. - - - - These answers are all in response to a question from "Arnello Sirignano" (arnello at ulster.net): I had always thought the name for our society came from the title of our basic text book named "Alcoholics Anonymous," right? And didn't come into use until after the Big Book was published. So why then does it mention "Alcoholics Anonymous" in the first printing of the First Edition of the Big Book? In the story titled "A Different Slant," the author writes, "The doctor at this hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon me." Maybe I'm just missing something. But please explain if you can. - - - - "A Different Slant" was Harry Brick's story. See http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Harry%20Brick His date of sobriety was probably June 1938. It is said that he sued to get the money he had loaned A.A. to get the Big Book published refunded. Harry was probably an accountant. He is believed to be "Fred, a partner in a well known accounting firm" whose story is told on pages 39 through 43 of the Big Book. So this fits with the documents Arthur Sheehan has discovered, and makes it seem most likely that the alcoholics who had gathered around Bill W. and Dr. Bob were sometimes referring to their whole group as "Alcoholics Anonymous" as early as Summer 1938. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4259. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 6:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Arnello The earliest source reference I have found containing the term "Alcoholics anonymous" is a transcription of a letter from Bill W to Dr Bob written circa April - June 1938 nearly a year prior to publication of the Big Book. The copy of the transcription is from the GSO Archives (and marked as such) and was obtained from the estate of a now deceased past Delegate and Trustee from my area. The GSO Archives filing references hand written on the document state "38-25" "(#25-#30)" "Fd" "X R.28" "57" In the letter Bill advises Dr Bob that two chapters of the book have been dictated and mimeographed (an introduction and his story) and were included for Dr Bob to review together with an outline for the remaining chapters. The letter is also significant in that Bill suggests to Dr Bob that his wife Anne write the chapter "portraying the wife of an alcoholic." On pages 4 and 5 of the letter Bill wrote "... By the way, you might all be thinking up a good title. Nearly everyone agrees that we should sign the volume, Alcoholics Anonymous. Titles such as 'Haven, One Hundred Men, Comes the Dawn, etc.' have been suggested. What would you think about the formation of a charitable corporation to be called, let us say, "Alcoholics Anonymous." In other sources Lois W (in "Lois Remembers" p 197) states that the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was first used in June 1938. "Pass It On" (p 202) claims the first documented use of the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was in a July 15, 1938 letter from Bill W to "Messrs Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller Foundation" inviting them to attend a Clinton Street meeting at Bill's home and that the members will waive the requirement that qualified them for "Alcoholics Anonymous." "Pass It On" also claims that Dr Esther L Richards (of Johns Hopkins) stated in a July 18, 1938 letter that Bill W, at that time, was using the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" both as the working title of the book and as the name of the Fellowship. The story "A Different Slant" is by Harry B who was the second "Class B" Alcoholic Foundation Board Chairman appointed in January 1939. He had to resign in December 1939 after he returned to drinking. The first (and prior) alcoholic Board Chair was Bill R who was appointed in August 1938 and had to resign a few months later because he too returned to drinking. Harry B sobered up in 1938 and would likely have been aware of the name being bandied about in NY. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4260. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: conference-approved/structure From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 12:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Debi Ubernosky and Past Delegate Bob McK. - - - - From: "Debi Ubernosky" (dkuber1990 at verizon.net) Thank you Tracy! Let me just add that the Delegate in my Area is diligent about providing us the background information on what will be voted on at the upcoming conference. We just held our Area Assembly this past weekend at which we held Round Tables to go over all of these items and give our Delegate a group conscience on what we thought about each one. If a person studies the Twelve Concepts for Service and the Warranties in the Service Manual, they will find something called Right of Decision. That's what we elect Delegates to do for us. If you have an on-the-ball Delegate, they will be sure you get to review the material. The sad case is that about 90% of the members of AA do not give one damn about what happens at Area Assembly, much less a group conscience, nor do they want to hear your report about it, or sacrifice any of their sober lives/time participating. That is my experience in 16+ years of sobriety and involvement in service. Debi U. sober right here in Aggieland, TX since 11-25-90 - - - - From: "Bob McK." (bobnotgod2 at att.net) I would like to add my experience as a Panel 47 member of the Grapevine Committee. The previous year the committee endorsed, and the Conference approved, development of a pamphlet describing the AA Grapevine. This task was then assigned to a writer, in this case the Grapevine managing editor. This document was then reviewed by the respon- sible Trustee's Committee (in the case of the Grapevine, this is actually the Grapevine Board) prior to its submission as background material to the Conference Committee in late February. While each delegate need only receive the background material for their own committee, they are entitled to receive ALL the back- ground material for all committees. I did, as did the other 3 Ohio delegates. This then was a stack of paper around one-foot tall. We made copies of the items the area officers felt more pertinent to group review and distributed these to "committees" at our area Mini-Conferences. The text of the proposed pamphlet was viewed by a lot of GSRs, DCMs, etc. in our Ohio areas. While I represented area 54 (NE Ohio), I also attended the gathering from area 53 (Central and SE Ohio). They were particularly critical of the proposed pamphlet and offered many suggestions for revision. When the Grapevine Committee met at the April General Service Conference we were not content with the pamphlet as submitted. The editor offered an on-the-spot rewrite to our suggestions and returned shortly with revised text which we unanimously approved. The Conference then approved the revised text sight unseen. I would like to think that they did that because they trusted us to get it right, but it is also possible that they did not view this particular pamphlet as all that important. Perhaps both are true. It is simply not practical for the Conference to act as a committee-of-the-whole on all issues. And this pamphlet -- The AA Grapevine: Our Meeting in Print (P-52), unlike the main body of the Big Book, is not frozen in stone. As Conference-Approved literature, any substantial change to the text needs Conference approval also and it got it in 2002 and 2004. By Concept One our whole Fellowship has final responsibility and ultimate authority, but the practical application of this also involves judicious application of Concept Two (delegation) and Concept Three (Right of Decision). This only works well if careful attention is paid to Concept Nine (Choosing our Leaders). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4261. . . . . . . . . . . . Camel Pins From: oys.jerry5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 6:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I visited Johantegens Jewelers today and chatted with the two grandsons. They thought their Grandfather started making the Camel Pins in the 1930's. However there was no one sober in Alcoholics Anonymous at that time in Minneapolis and there were no meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous being held at that time in Minneapolis. Thus there would have been no need for them. As I mentioned earlier Frank B. was Sober and attened meetings at the Mother Club (Now known as 2218). Frank B. and their Grandfather together designed the Camel Pin. Their Grandfather made the mold for the pin and they continue to make them at the present time. They make two of them. One is Gold Plated and the other one is Gold Filled. The body is Brown in color with 24 in the center. In Service Jerry Oys ______________________________ P.S. Johantegen Jewelers opened their doors in 1896. They were located at 628 West Broadway in North Minneapolis, MN. and have been owned and operated by the Johantegen family ever since. As mentioned in my earlier message they are currently located in Crystal, Minnesota. I found my father's camel pin that he received in 1958 last week and took it with me today on my visit. They compared it to one that their Grandfather made early on. There are slight differences between the two and the slight differences have continued through the years. However the size 3/8 x 3/8 of an inch has remained consistent through the years. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4262. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity From: joegarcia06 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 11:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The aabibliography website has a page about Lewis Presnall and his book, "The Search for Serenity": http://www.aabibliography.com/aaphotohtml/wlskd8.html Joe Garcia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4263. . . . . . . . . . . . Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous From: Bob S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2007 1:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When was the name Alcoholics Anonymous first used? Bob S. reminds us of the Cleveland claim. But see Messages 4258 and 4259 first, to understand part of the problem. - - - - (1) SPRING 1939: the Foreword to Second Edition says AFTER the publication of the Big Book, which would mean not until Spring 1939. - - - - (2) SUMMER 1938: Letter from Bill W. to Dr. Bob (circa April to June 1938), says that "Nearly everyone agrees that we should sign the volume, Alcoholics Anonymous." This meant, not the title, NOT the official name of their group, but how the authorship would be given on the title page. Lois W (in "Lois Remembers" p. 197) states however that the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was first used in June 1938. "Pass It On" (p 202) claims the first documented use of the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was in a July 15, 1938 letter from Bill W to "Messrs Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller Foundation" inviting them to attend a Clinton Street meeting at Bill's home and that the members will waive the requirement that qualified them for 'Alcoholics Anonymous.'" "Pass It On" also claims that Dr Esther L Richards (of Johns Hopkins) stated in a July 18, 1938 letter that Bill W, at that time, was using the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" both as the working title of the book and as the name of the Fellowship. Also in Harry Brick's story in the Big Book, "A Different Slant," he says, "The doctor at this hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon me." Since Harry probably got sober in June 1938, this also suggests that the members of the AA group he contacted were calling them- selves an "Alcoholics Anonymous" group, even if only at a casual and unofficial level. - - - - (3) CLEVELAND -- SPRING 1939 Now comes the Cleveland claim, which Bob S. reminds us of: "Bob S." (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) Clarence Snyder started Cleveland Ohio's first AA meeting on May 11th, 1939 - about one month after the BB was published - and referred to it as an 'Alcoholics Anonymous' group. He stated in one of his audio recordings that this was the first meeting to be referred to as such. - - - - A comment or two from Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana): One of the things that has to be remembered here, is that Clarence was the leader in getting the last ties broken between the recovering alcoholics and the Oxford Group. Bill W. had already broken the tie (in some ways, it may have been more a case of the Oxford Group pushing him and his little group of alcoholics out whether they wanted to cut the tie with the Oxford Group or not). But Dr. Bob was still clinging tightly to the Oxford Group connection in Akron, which meant that, not just in Akron, but every place else in the country, including Cleveland, people regarded the little groups which were working the twelve steps as part of the Oxford Group. And that meant that, even in Cleveland where Clarence was, Roman Catholic priests were telling alcoholics that they could not join the new twelve step group, because it was part of the Protestant evangelical movement called the Oxford Group. As long as any major part of the twelve step movement was still hanging onto the Oxford Group connection, the movement as a whole was still going to be regarded as a Protestant evangelical cult. It didn't do any good to tell the Roman Catholic Church in Cleveland that "we've broken from them in New York" when it was perfectly obvious that the Akron branch, which was much bigger and more tightly organized than the New York group, was still calling itself part of the Oxford Group. That would be like saying "we aren't really a Communist front group because only two thirds of our members are Communists" (or whatever). Clarence was the one who finally got through to Dr. Bob, and forced the final official break between the twelve step people and the Oxford Group. And although the people who were getting sober by following the method worked out by Bill W. and Dr. Bob may have been referring to themselves unofficially or casually as "alcoholics anonymous," it wasn't the official and formal name of the group yet. When Clarence started publicizing the meetings in Cleveland as "meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous" (its own separate group, having nothing to do with the Oxford Group any longer, anywhere in the country), it could be argued that this was where a totally autonomous and separate Alcoholics Anonymous movement finally began operating under that official name. So it strikes me that there was a point to what Clarence said. But it is also the case that whatever date we give is largely a matter of definition. Official or unofficial? Casual or formal? First partial break or final unequivocal split from the OG? In private correspondence, or in public announce- ments in newspapers and mimeographed flyers and other more public media? Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4264. . . . . . . . . . . . AA history book never published From: ROGER WHEATLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 11:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am aware rumors are not history, but maybe someone can confirm, deny, or validate this point. I heard once that there was an AA history book being considered by AAWS and delegates were provided copies for review. There were factual errors or contentious points in the book and the project was abandoned. However, some copies were bootlegged and exist out there somewhere today of this never published history of AA's first 50 or so years. Anyone shed some historical light on this story that was once passed on to me? Roger - - - - From: Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) The manuscript you are speaking of does in fact exist. It was written by Bob P., see http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html#rigid for something about this very good man, who gave us wonderful service in AA. It is not violating the Fair Use provisions of U.S. copyright law for individuals to have a personal copy of Bob's work, which they use for their own personal research. That's why they have photocopying machines in nearly all American public and university libraries. So it would not be fair to describe these copies as "bootlegged." The problem is that the manuscript has a lot of fascinating and extremely useful informa- tion about a lot of things, but gets a whole lot of other things hopelessly garbled. So I have observed some good AA historians making use of some of Bob P.'s information on occasion, but it wouldn't be a good book for general AA use. The average AA member wouldn't know how to spot the places where Bob got it wrong. Last year, at the AA Archives and History Gathering in eastern Pennsylvania, there was a panel discussion on the issue of whether a history like Bob P. attempted could in fact be written. The position I took was that a whole lot more histories needed to be written first on the various component parts of the story, before anyone would be able to fit them all together into a single giant historical account. In fact, I argued that even then, there was no way that one single invidual could master that much AA history, and that such a work might have to be done with twenty or more AA historians each writing sections on their area of expertise (like the Cambridge Ancient History and the Cambridge Medieval History). http://hindsfoot.org/penntalk.html, see the sections towards the end on "National A.A. history" and "Can a history of A.A. from 1955 to 2000 be written today?" It has been mentioned in a lot of past messages in the AAHistoryLovers, because, as I noted, some of our best AA historians find that Bob P.'s book has some extremely useful information in it in a number of places, including material on topics covered nowhere else: Message 4250: an unpublished AA history book by former GSO General Manager Bob P. Message 3711 refers to "Bob P's aborted (by the Conference) manuscript of a history of AA from 1955 to 1985." Message 2884: "Excerpt from: Unpublished manuscript 'AA World History' (1985) by Bob P." Message 2285 from Rick T., Illinois: "I need to inform the group that Bob Pearson's AA history book was much more about the history of the General Service Office than specific growth of selected cities and AA "Chapters." In my own view of the draft manuscript, the scope of specific cities' growth was not covered extremely well in it. I learned a great deal about the GSO relation to the General Service Conference, and Bob P. did write about trends in AA with a keen insight. His book was never published, but was severely compromised from photocopying by 1988s Delegates, which means that there are unauthorized copies of it floating around. Message 1826: "My sources for the history of AA's growth around the country include Bob P.'s never-released Non-Approved History of Alcoholics Anonymous 1957-1985. The title is a bit of a misnomer, as it covers quite a lot of facts from 1939 to 1985." Also Messages 3150, 3146, 2847, 2808, 2221, 1975, 1691, 858, 114. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4265. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history book: correction to previous message From: Glenn F. Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2007 3:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Correction in the URL given to the article on the difficulty of a single person writing a history telling the whole story of AA in the twentieth century. Click on this and it will work: > http://hindsfoot.org/penntalk.html , see the > sections towards the end on "National A.A. > history" and "Can a history of A.A. from > 1955 to 2000 be written today?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4266. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Camel Pins From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2007 2:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You can obtain camel lapel pins of the latter type (brown body with 24 centre) at HYPERLINK "http://www.recoveryemporium.com" www.recoveryemporium.com. for approx $2.25 I have been giving them out as birthday gifts at my home group. God bless Dave I visited Johantegens Jewelers today and chatted with the two grandsons. They thought their Grandfather started making the Camel Pins in the 1930's. However there was no one sober in Alcoholics Anonymous at that time in Minneapolis and there were no meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous being held at that time in Minneapolis. Thus there would have been no need for them. As I mentioned earlier Frank B. was Sober and attened meetings at the Mother Club (Now known as 2218). Frank B. and their Grandfather together designed the Camel Pin. Their Grandfather made the mold for the pin and they continue to make them at the present time. They make two of them. One is Gold Plated and the other one is Gold Filled. The body is Brown in color with 24 in the center. In Service Jerry Oys P.S. Johantegen Jewelers opened their doors in 1896. They were located at 628 West Broadway in North Minneapolis, MN. and have been owned and operated by the Johantegen family ever since. As mentioned in my earlier message they are currently located in Crystal, Minnesota. I found my father's camel pin that he received in 1958 last week and took it with me today on my visit. They compared it to one that their Grandfather made early on. There are slight differences between the two and the slight differences have continued through the years. However the size 3/8 x 3/8 of an inch has remained consistent through the years. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4267. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshop From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2007 1:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there I'm a little curious about the AA National Archives Workshop. Being a member that finds our history very interesting and vital for the future of our fellowship, who has absolutely nothing to do with research or preservation etc., and only limited knowledge about the details in our history; I wonder if attending would make any sense. If a member of the group will share a little about the format and content of previous Workshops and tell who, in their opinion, would benefit from attending, it will be highly appreciated. Thanks Bent Alt i én. Få Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notesblok. - - - - See Message 4064: Complete List of the National Archives Workshops 1st 1996 Akron 2nd 1997 Akron 3rd 1998 Akron 4th 1999 Chicago, Illinois 5th 2000 Seattle, Washington 6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana (across Ohio river from Louisville, Kentucky) 7th 2002 San Bernardino, California 8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 9th 2004 Murfreesboro, in central Tennessee (about forty miles from Nashville) 10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana (originally set for New Orleans, but the hurricane struck in 2005) 11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4268. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA history book never published From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2007 11:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Group and hello Roger, Don't forget the "Collected Observations of AA" manuscript that may still be available in excerpt form from the AA Archives at GSO. These sets of monographs come from the 'second' Conference submittal of an AA history book that the 1993 Conference Literature Committee declined to recommend publishing (Bob P.'s seminal work was submitted to Delegates in 1987). There was no 1993 Advisory Action against publishing the second manuscript, only the Literature Committee's recommendation of "taking no action" on it. A close friend who served as Indiana Area 22 Delegate and was seated on that Conference Literature Committee shared that the book was just not up to AA expectations...others on the Literature and Archives committees at that time shared the same view. Two sets of authors worked on this second manuscript, and after the Conference declined to proceed with the project, it was reported (rumored) that the General Service Board balked on paying them. The authors eventually got paid their contracted amount of $2-300,000 for four years of work. Unfortunately the professional writers could not bring a needed continuity to the work and the manuscript remained with Trustees Literature for editing over the next few years. Trustees Literature Committee then recommended that what was left of it be placed in the AA Archives. Another good friend, a past Chicago Delegate who was an Appointed Committee Member to Trustees Literature, assisted with the editing and he shared that much of the erroneous information and extraneous stuff was discarded. Frank M., AA Archivist at GSO (1982-1996), reported the consensus of the Trustees Archives Committee in 1995 that excerpts of the book could be released to Fellowship members who had an interest in copies, but only excerpts relating to the geographical area of the requestors would be considered. "Collected Observations" is the stripped-down second history book's final title. He sent me 25 pages on history of the East Central Region and while the Illinois details were scattered and not as factual as could have been, the reading was difficult because it dropped so many names---ones that may have been relevant (and almost impossible to recognize, for example Conrad O. from Illinois) and others that were large errors of omission (inaccuracies about the Chicago Group). At the time I joked with him that these excerpts came across like chapters that could have been included with Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers. "Not up to Fellowship expectations" also points to the scope of the book: it was not an AA history that continued where AA Comes of Age left off (1957) and there was no tie-in to the then-present 1990s. My last two bits on this thread of AAWS books on AA history never published: The Fellowship cherishes Bill W.'s AA Comes of Age and many AAs (including me) also cherish Ernest Kurtz' independently published Not-God as the two most comprehensive works on AA history. Both are awesomely beautiful works. Two more AAWS histories, Pass It On and Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, rate close behind them. The latest archival work, AAWS' Experience, Strength and Hope, was published in 2002---all four of these would be quite a gift set to anyone interested in AA history. And, how many independently published AA biographies are available today? Dozens. It's unfortunate that Bob P.'s effort failed to develop to a Conference-approved level, but it was a history generally focused on 50 years, especially where Bill's AA Comes of Age left off. The second 1989-93 effort now titled "Collected Observations of Alcoholics Anonymous" was AAWS' last attempt at pre-publication AA history manuscript review. Can any future AA history proposal and/or manuscript pass the muster of the General Service Conference? Of course, someday...at least I strongly believe it will happen. Incidentally, the Conference Policy and Admissions Committee discussed one Area's request for consideration on a new attempt at an AA history book in 2005 (2006?) but the committee took no action; perhaps there was no groundswell of support since the second history book's costly demise and the request failed to blossom that year. But as we say (and quote regularly), "More will be revealed." Love and serenity to you all, Rick T., Illinois From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ROGER WHEATLEY Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:36 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA history book never published I am aware rumors are not history, but maybe someone can confirm, deny, or validate this point. I heard once that there was an AA history book being considered by AAWS and delegates were provided copies for review. There were factual errors or contentious points in the book and the project was abandoned. However, some copies were bootlegged and exist out there somewhere today of this never published history of AA's first 50 or so years. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4269. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2007 10:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cleveland's claim, I believe, was to be the first group to openly identify itself as a group of Alcoholics Anonymous and that is a valid claim. The Cleveland group formed shortly after the Big Book was published and the name "Alco- holics Anonymous" was already in existence. However, anonymity practices in those early days were far more stringent than today and it was a rather bold move on Cleveland's part relatively speaking. If you check out the 1941 Jack Alexander Saturday Evening Post article, members back then even disguised their first names from public disclosure. Notwithstanding Bill W's early use of the term, I don't get a sense that there was yet unanimity in NY or Akron on adopting the term for the name of the Fellowship. As mentioned previously, Akron had not broken away yet from affiliation with the Oxford Group (it did not occur until October 1939). That affiliation was definitely one of the matters driving Cleveland to form its own group. However, Cleveland seemed to already have had a sufficient number of members commuting back and forth to/from Akron for meetings to sustain and warrant its own local AA group. It was basically a matter of just doing it and that's what Clarence S did. He was not the first member from Cleveland but he did start the first group in Cleveland at Abby G's home. Sometimes the search for primacy serves to detract too much from historical accomplish- ments and Cleveland AA has many significant historical accomplishments to its credit. When the Cleveland Plain Dealer editorials by Elrick B Davis were published about AA (October 1939) the newspaper also fielded calls in for help and referred them to the group. Cleveland membership sky-rocketed to the point that it vastly exceeded the combined total membership of Akron and NY for a long period of time. That reputedly is one of the reasons many thought AA started in Cleveland based on its relative size compared to Akron and NY. While he had both his proponents and detractors, the Cleveland founder, Clarence S, was without question highly motivated and active. He accomplished much in a very short period of time. I think (but am not sure) that Cleveland was the first to have multiple groups in the same city (prior to that a group was usually named for the city in which it was located). The first Intergroup Central Office was estab- lished in Cleveland (1941) again to the credit of Clarence S and Abby G and it is credited with also introducing (via Abby G) the principle of rotation to AA. Cleveland introduced the first AA newsletter the "Central Bulletin" (October 1942). It was distributed nationally well prior to the publication of the Grapevine (June 1944). The success of Cleveland practices for newcomer meetings and sponsorship also had a strong influence in later propagating those practices to many other parts of the country. AA started in Texas (February 1940) as a result of a Cleveland member (Larry J) taking a job with the Houston Press and publishing a series of editorials about AA. Those editorials also became AA's first published pamphlet. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob S. Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:14 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Cleveland's claim: first use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous When was the name Alcoholics Anonymous first used? Bob S. reminds us of the Cleveland claim. But see Messages 4258 and 4259 first, to understand part of the problem. - - - - (1) SPRING 1939: the Foreword to Second Edition says AFTER the publication of the Big Book, which would mean not until Spring 1939. - - - - (2) SUMMER 1938: Letter from Bill W. to Dr. Bob (circa April to June 1938), says that "Nearly everyone agrees that we should sign the volume, Alcoholics Anonymous." This meant, not the title, NOT the official name of their group, but how the authorship would be given on the title page. Lois W (in "Lois Remembers" p. 197) states however that the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was first used in June 1938. "Pass It On" (p 202) claims the first documented use of the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was in a July 15, 1938 letter from Bill W to "Messrs Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller Foundation" inviting them to attend a Clinton Street meeting at Bill's home and that the members will waive the requirement that qualified them for 'Alcoholics Anonymous.'" "Pass It On" also claims that Dr Esther L Richards (of Johns Hopkins) stated in a July 18, 1938 letter that Bill W, at that time, was using the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" both as the working title of the book and as the name of the Fellowship. Also in Harry Brick's story in the Big Book, "A Different Slant," he says, "The doctor at this hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon me." Since Harry probably got sober in June 1938, this also suggests that the members of the AA group he contacted were calling them- selves an "Alcoholics Anonymous" group, even if only at a casual and unofficial level. - - - - (3) CLEVELAND -- SPRING 1939 Now comes the Cleveland claim, which Bob S. reminds us of: "Bob S." (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) Clarence Snyder started Cleveland Ohio's first AA meeting on May 11th, 1939 - about one month after the BB was published - and referred to it as an 'Alcoholics Anonymous' group. He stated in one of his audio recordings that this was the first meeting to be referred to as such. - - - - A comment or two from Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana): One of the things that has to be remembered here, is that Clarence was the leader in getting the last ties broken between the recovering alcoholics and the Oxford Group. Bill W. had already broken the tie (in some ways, it may have been more a case of the Oxford Group pushing him and his little group of alcoholics out whether they wanted to cut the tie with the Oxford Group or not). But Dr. Bob was still clinging tightly to the Oxford Group connection in Akron, which meant that, not just in Akron, but every place else in the country, including Cleveland, people regarded the little groups which were working the twelve steps as part of the Oxford Group. And that meant that, even in Cleveland where Clarence was, Roman Catholic priests were telling alcoholics that they could not join the new twelve step group, because it was part of the Protestant evangelical movement called the Oxford Group. As long as any major part of the twelve step movement was still hanging onto the Oxford Group connection, the movement as a whole was still going to be regarded as a Protestant evangelical cult. It didn't do any good to tell the Roman Catholic Church in Cleveland that "we've broken from them in New York" when it was perfectly obvious that the Akron branch, which was much bigger and more tightly organized than the New York group, was still calling itself part of the Oxford Group. That would be like saying "we aren't really a Communist front group because only two thirds of our members are Communists" (or whatever). Clarence was the one who finally got through to Dr. Bob, and forced the final official break between the twelve step people and the Oxford Group. And although the people who were getting sober by following the method worked out by Bill W. and Dr. Bob may have been referring to themselves unofficially or casually as "alcoholics anonymous," it wasn't the official and formal name of the group yet. When Clarence started publicizing the meetings in Cleveland as "meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous" (its own separate group, having nothing to do with the Oxford Group any longer, anywhere in the country), it could be argued that this was where a totally autonomous and separate Alcoholics Anonymous movement finally began operating under that official name. So it strikes me that there was a point to what Clarence said. But it is also the case that whatever date we give is largely a matter of definition. Official or unofficial? Casual or formal? First partial break or final unequivocal split from the OG? In private correspondence, or in public announce- ments in newspapers and mimeographed flyers and other more public media? Glenn C. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4270. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: National Archives Workshop From: Jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2007 6:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The workshops are aimed both at experienced archivists and rank beginners. We always have workshops on the basics of preservation, etc. so if you are interested in learning more it would make a lot of sense. Plus, you can "pick the brains" of archivists from all over the country and you will learn mucho! Someone interested in our history but not the nuts and bolts of archives work would get less out of the workshop but you still could learn much about our history. I guess it depends on how far you would be traveling. > [Original Message] > From: Bent Christensen > To: > Date: 4/19/2007 3:53:58 PM > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] National Archives Workshop > > Hi there > > I'm a little curious about the AA National > Archives Workshop. > > Being a member that finds our history very > interesting and vital for the future of our > fellowship, who has absolutely nothing to do > with research or preservation etc., and only > limited knowledge about the details in our > history; I wonder if attending would make any > sense. > > If a member of the group will share a little > about the format and content of previous > Workshops and tell who, in their opinion, > would benefit from attending, it will be > highly appreciated. > > Thanks > Bent > > Alt i én. Få Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notesblok. > > - - - - > > See Message 4064: > > Complete List of the National Archives Workshops > > 1st 1996 Akron > > 2nd 1997 Akron > > 3rd 1998 Akron > > 4th 1999 Chicago, Illinois > > 5th 2000 Seattle, Washington > > 6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana > (across Ohio river from Louisville, Kentucky) > > 7th 2002 San Bernardino, California > > 8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida > > 9th 2004 Murfreesboro, in central Tennessee > (about forty miles from Nashville) > > 10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana > (originally set for New Orleans, > but the hurricane struck in 2005) > > 11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4271. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history book never published From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2007 3:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bob Pearson's unpublished history of AA and another one, Charles Hanson's unpublished history of AA. - - - - From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Roger wrote > There were factual errors or contentious > points in the book and the project was > abandoned. A friend of mine was a trustee when this history book project was shut down. I had a long discussion with him about it and the reason he gave me was that the manuscript was incomplete and much more work needed to be done on the local histories within each state and province as well as the international histories. The cost to complete it was judged to be to great. I have never found a factual error or con- tentious point in the manuscript but of course history often has more than one set of facts. There was also a history book written by Charles Hanson and it was to be used as a 50th Anniversary publication but it was judged to be "too general." Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4272. . . . . . . . . . . . Cleveland, Texas, and Florida AA From: Ken WENTZ . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2007 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "AA started in Texas (February 1940) as a result of a Cleveland member (Larry J) taking a job with the Houston Press and publishing a series of editorials about AA. Those editorials also became AA's first published pamphlet." From message 4269 "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) - - - - Regarding the long line of AA to start as a result of the Cleveland group, Larry J.'s article written in Texas was read and responded to by Sgt. Roy Y., who was then transferred to the Tampa-St. Pete area and as a result ALL of AA in this area of Florida( Clearwater, Tampa, St. Pete) was actually born out of that article, via Roy starting meetings with some other locals. The 301(Clearwater Group) traces its roots to Roy and just celebrated its 62nd anniversary March 21,2007. Thanks Ken W. Clearwater Fla. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4273. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: National Archives Workshop From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2007 11:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 00:06 4/18/2007 , Bent Christensen wrote asking about the National Archives Workshops. I hosted the hospitality suite last year at the meeting here in Baton Rouge one afternoon and I can say I learned a lot just listening to the knowledgeable folk talk. The exhibits were really nice, too. It's a nice bunch and you are likely to learn a lot whether you intend to or not. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4274. . . . . . . . . . . . Historical recordings From: Cliff Diable . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2007 7:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Having recently read ( and re-read) bio's and autobio's of the giants of AA, I'd like very much to actually hear some of the great speeches I've read, and heard about. Any one have a link or, perhaps info when I can listen to "My Heros"?? Interested in Bill, Lois, Dr. Bob, Nell Wing, Ebby, Drs. Silkworth, Shoemaker and Tiebeau as well as others. Thanks!! Cliff Diable Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4275. . . . . . . . . . . . Charles Hanson''s unpublished AA history From: G Rohde . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2007 8:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello One and all, I hope this finds everyone well and in good spirits. Anyone have a PDF copy of the book written by Charles Hanson? The one Bob Pearson did was good for such a hard project. I sure would like to compare them seeing as how I have read Bob P's attempt. Thank You Gary ********************************* PLEASE CLICK HERE TO CONTACT GARY DIRECTLY AT HIS EMAIL ADDRESS: (feelgoodcp at gmail.com) ********************************* On 4/19/07, James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) mentioned Charles Hanson's unpublished AA history as well as Bob Pearson's history: > There was also a history book written by > Charles Hanson and it was to be used as a > 50th Anniversary publication but it was > judged to be "too general." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4276. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshops: a typical program From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2007 11:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a program from the past (taken from the planning committee's records), but this general format has been fairly typical of the National Archives Workshops: 6th NATIONAL ARCHIVES WORKSHOP SEPTEMBER 27-30, 2001 Clarksville, Indiana / Louisville, Kentucky "Our Window on the Past, Guide to the Present, and Light for the Future" Holiday Inn Lakeview (Louisville North), Clarksville, Indiana ************************** FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 28 7:00 a.m. A.A. meeting 7:30-9 a.m. breakfast - - - - 9:00-11:30 a.m. KATHY SMITH (Vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tennessee), "Introduction to Archival Procedures" - - - - 11:30-1:00 p.m. lunch - - - - 1:00-5:00 p.m. BOB WILLIAMS (Maumelle, Arkansas) on advanced archival and preservation procedures - - - - 5:00-6:30 p.m. dinner 6:30-10 p.m. Floyd Parker (Frankton, Indiana, co-chair of the workshop planning committee): general introduction. Longtimers Panel, two longtimers from each hosting Area, chaired by Frank Nyikos (Area 22 Archivist, Syracuse, Indiana, secretary/ treasurer of the workshop planning committee): Areas 20, 22, 23, 26, and 56, plus Area 64 (Chuck E., over 50 years, and Billy S., almost 50 years, oldest living delegate) - - - - 9:30 p.m. JUDIT SANTON, New York A.A. Archivist: specific kinds of correspondence in the New York archives, plus perhaps something on the importance of oral histories. - - - - 10:00 p.m. ice cream social ************************** SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 29 7:00 a.m. A.A. meeting 7:45-8:45 a.m. breakfast - - - - 9:00-10:15 a.m. Policy, ethics, A.A. principles: JUDIT SANTON (New York A.A. Archivist) GAIL LaC. (Akron A.A. Archives) Plus one other person (on the internet) Funding an A.A. archives: JIM E. (Area 19) Publishing an Area history: WANDA B. (Area 26 Archivist, Lexington, Kentucky) - - - - 10:30-11:45 a.m. Linkage and outreach: JERRY P. (Sycamore IL), first Conference Archives Chair A.A. authors and history: GLENN CHESNUT (Indiana University, South Bend), "Indiana's Own A.A. Author: Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and the Golden Books" Father Ralph's life, Indiana places linked with him in the immediate vicinity of Clarksville where we are meeting, and his work in A.A. Database and retrieval methods: JAY M. (Akron Intergroup) - - - - 11:45-1:30 p.m. lunch - - - - 1:30-3:30 p.m. JIM DORRYCOTT (Area 64 Archivist), slide show with photographs of the newly built Area 64 Tennessee A.A. Archives - - - - 3:45-5 p.m. Area Capsule Histories from our part of the country: how A.A. began and notable events. Area 23: Kenny B. Area 22: Glenn C., member of the workshop planning committee Area 64: Charley M. Area 26: Wanda B., member of the workshop planning committee Area 20: Rick T., program chair of the workshop planning committee Area 56: John from Ohio - - - - 5:00 p.m. business meeting, chaired by Frank Nyikos (Area 22 Archivist, Syracuse, Indiana), secretary/treasurer of the workshop planning committee - - - - 6:30-7:30 p.m. banquet - - - - 8:15 p.m. FIRST KEYNOTE SPEAKER BILL D., Memphis, Tennessee (over 46 years in the program - - spoke at Minneapolis - - got sober in New York in the early 1950's, went to the meeting Bill W. went to there, knew Dr. Silkworth - - he went from New York to Texas, where he spent many years, then retired to Memphis, where he lives now and is active in Tennessee A.A.) - - - - 9:15 p.m. SECOND KEYNOTE SPEAKER BILL WHITE (Bloomington, Illinois), author of "Slaying the Dragon," the leading expert on the history of alcoholism treatment in America. A talk illustrated with slides showing photographs of alcoholism treatment centers from the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. ************************** SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 30 7:00 a.m. A.A. meeting 7:30-9:00 a.m. breakfast 9:00-11:45 a.m. Closing Session Conference Archives Committee Report, Trustees Archives Committee Report, Ask-It-Basket, 2001 Preliminary Report Planning Guide Presentation, Jack O. (Joliet, Illinois, Conference Archives Committee), Service Sharing ########################## THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES WORKSHOPS (from a planning committee document) The A.A. people who come to these workshops are all people who are actively engaged in archival work, most of them for many years. They include: members of Area A.A. archives committees, District archivists, archivists at intergroup offices, people from the New York central office (like Judit Santon), Trustees and Delegates who are interested in archives, and historians working on the history of A.A. who use archives as major sources of informa- tion. Some of the attendees are also brand new at their archivist's job, so some of our topic sessions will need to be tailored for absolutely raw, new beginners - - that's part of our job too, though only a part. So we've always had topic sessions on preserving and restoring and storing old manuscripts, and the problems in preserving old tape recordings. Also on how to use computers in various ways to help organize an archival collection. Also talks by people who run local Area archi- val repositories in places like Little Rock, Arkansas, and so on. We usually have a trustee or two who is interested in archives. We always have local oldtimers who are willing to answer our questions about early A.A. in their part of the country, and their own personal experiences. We try to have good material on A.A. history too. So our programs include talks by experts on A.A. history, small group meetings with noted authors of works on A.A. history (where we can talk to people like Mary Darrah about their work), and so on. We've always had major speakers at these workshops, sometimes as many as four or five or more. Ernie Kurtz, Mary Darrah, and so on, spoke at the workshops in Akron. The speakers are frequently A.A. members, but we have had non-A.A. people speak too. For example Dr. Bob's son Smitty, Henrietta Seiberling's son, and a doctor and a nurse who are part of the current alcoholism treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron. The National Archives Workshops are not official A.A. events like A.A. state conventions or miniconferences put on by local intergroups, so the rules about non-alcoholic speakers do not apply. We frequently have some special event which is tied to the history of A.A. in the place where the workshop is held: a visit to Dr. Bob's house (and to his and Anne's grave) at the Akron workshops, getting to attend the huge Chicago Open Meeting (with thousands of A.A.'s from all over greater Chicago) at the workshop in that city in 1999, and so on. As archivists, we are responsible for perserv- ing the CONTEXT in which A.A. grew and emerged, as well as what the early A.A.'s themselves were doing. Nobody can make good sense out of much of what the early A.A.'s did without knowing something about the Oxford Group, the Washingtonians, the treatment centers and hospitals which were trying (and failing) to bring the "cure" to suffering alcoholics, and so on - - as well as the love-hate rela- tionship which developed between the A.A. groups and the treatment centers and detox facilities and half-way houses. Our central focus, nevertheless, always has to be on A.A. and its people - - the rest is only peripheral. These workshops are not official A.A. events, in the sense of being put on by areas or districts or intergroups. They are organized by ad hoc committees. The planning committee for the 6th National Archives Workshop, for example, was made up of A.A. members from Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, and Tennessee who were deeply committed to A.A. archives and history. From Indiana Area 22 we had the chair of the archives committee, the archivist, and the editor of the archival bulletin (Floyd P., Frank N., and Glenn C.). From Illinois Area 20 we had their archivist (Rick T.). From Tennessee Area 64 we had their archivist (Jim Dorrycott, now deceased). From Kentucky Area 26 we had the chair of the archives committee (Wanda B.). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4277. . . . . . . . . . . . 11th National Archives Workshop: Phoenix, Arizona From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2007 11:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Area64tnarchives.org" (daggerrose at area64tnarchives.org) 11th Annual National Archives Workshop Preserving Our Heritage To Pass It On September 6 thru September 9, 2007 Sheraton Airport Hotel Phoenix, Arizona Greetings, It's sneaking up on us. Make your reservations now. Go to: http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/ http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/NAW07.pdf It will only take a couple minutes. Tell Vicki Area 64 Archives sent ya. Best Regards and See Ya in September, Daggerrose - - - - FROM THE FLYER: 11 th Annual National Archives Workshop Alcoholics Anonymous Preserving Our Heritage to Pass It On With Al-Anon Participation September 6 thru 9, 2007 -- Phoenix, Arizona Sheraton Airport Hotel 1600 S. 52nd Street 1-800-325-3535 Contacts: Vicki Jo B. (H) 602-995-7349 / (W) 602-272-1347 happyvjb@yahoo.com (happyvjb at yahoo.com) Ron W. 623-934-4395 Ronw85301@aol.com (Ronw85301 at aol.com) ***Limited Amount Of Space Available for Archive Displays -- Advise Ahead Of Time If Bringing Displays*** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4278. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Historical recordings From: john.otis . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2007 3:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, John Otis here. I have tapes called "The Founders Of AA" by Glenn K Audio Tapes. There are six tapes very clear. #1 Ebby T 9/14/58 #2 Bob S 1/01/48 #3 Bill W + Dr. Bob 1st convention Cleveland 7/28/50 #4 Bill D The Man On The Bed 1/1/50 #5 Harry T, Dr. 1/1/66 #6 Bill W. The Story Handed Down" date unknown. I obtained them from: http://www.glennkaudiotapes.com/ They have very clear sound. You will really like them. John Otis > > Having recently read ( and re-read) bio's and > autobio's of the giants of AA, I'd like very > much to actually hear some of the great speeches > I've read, and heard about. Any one have a link > or, perhaps info when I can listen to "My Heros"?? > > Interested in Bill, Lois, Dr. Bob, Nell Wing, > Ebby, Drs. Silkworth, Shoemaker and Tiebeau > as well as others. > > Thanks!! > Cliff Diable > Raleigh, NC > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4279. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: conference-approved From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2007 8:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows for the protection of the author or entity holding copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate holds more weight legally than the other method if challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright Office as it nears completion and when it is completed submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent out for review, the original copyright is in force and even if the language is changed I am sure that there might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway, even after a copyright is secured including a copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar document changing the words etc. and get away with it. What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times but some of that confusion might lead to a greater acceptnce by the Fellowship at large. Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on literature sent out for review anyway? This "top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level. Mitchell --- Arthur S wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with > me at all over the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any > means, but with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright > protection" being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an > excuse to withhold review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors > can shed some light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid > copyright concerns involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny > Delegates (or for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of > literature well prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical > aspect to any publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't > be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO > uses a notion of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process > top-secret and known only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed > work cannot be circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review > planned changes to the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it > could not be done in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't > seem to hold water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an > author need only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order > to establish initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going > through the full legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of > james.bliss@comcast.net > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4280. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator out of town April 23 to 29, 2007 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2007 10:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi to everybody, I will be out of town for a week. I'll be gone from today (Monday, April 23, 2007) until the end of the week (Sunday evening late, April 29, 2007). We'll be pulling our camper and traveling down to southern Indiana. Given where we'll be going, I won't have any access to the internet at any point along the way. Fiona Dodd in County Mayo, Ireland, will be keeping an eye on things, with the same skill and keen eye that she always shows. fionadodd@eircom.net (fionadodd at eircom.net) Everybody take care. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4281. . . . . . . . . . . . AA historical recordings available here From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2007 8:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good morning. I specialize in AA history audio and video. I have over 200 recordings of AA pioneers who came into AA in the 1930s and 1940s plus hundreds of other AA history recordings from the 1950s and 1960s. Please email me directly at barefootbill@optonline.net (barefootbill at optonline.net) and I'll send you a listing of what I have. Thanks for allowing me to be of service and God bless. Just Love, Barefoot Bill P.S. - My audio website should be up and running in about a month at www.justloveaudio.com -----Original Message----- From: Cliff Diable Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Historical recordings Having recently read ( and re-read) bio's and autobio's of the giants of AA, I'd like very much to actually hear some of the great speeches I've read, and heard about. Any one have a link or, perhaps info when I can listen to "My Heros"?? Interested in Bill, Lois, Dr. Bob, Nell Wing, Ebby, Drs. Silkworth, Shoemaker and Tiebeau as well as others. Thanks!! Cliff Diable Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4282. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: conference-approved From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2007 8:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to "clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they cleared up. The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda. I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't be done for literature (all literature). New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group" pamphlet, 12and12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings with the home group. Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the background material). She was denied access to it until right before the Conference floor session. When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out each year. Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says. End of rant (Rule #62). Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows for the protection of the author or entity holding copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate holds more weight legally than the other method if challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright Office as it nears completion and when it is completed submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent out for review, the original copyright is in force and even if the language is changed I am sure that there might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway, even after a copyright is secured including a copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar document changing the words etc. and get away with it. What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times but some of that confusion might lead to a greater acceptnce by the Fellowship at large. Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on literature sent out for review anyway? This "top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level. Mitchell --- Arthur S wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with > me at all over the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any > means, but with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright > protection" being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an > excuse to withhold review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors > can shed some light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid > copyright concerns involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny > Delegates (or for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of > literature well prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical > aspect to any publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't > be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO > uses a notion of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process > top-secret and known only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed > work cannot be circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review > planned changes to the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it > could not be done in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't > seem to hold water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an > author need only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order > to establish initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going > through the full legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of > james.bliss@comcast.net > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4283. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2007 3:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I see that many members are jumping on the bandwagon in support of what was done by early members in promoting AA in their own backyard. I just returned from Akron and can positively say that AA wouldn't have been in Cleveland as AA city #3 if Dr. Bob hadn't sent Clarence S. there. Mitchell K can provide more insight on that .I remember reading that the name Alcoholics anonymous was already in use but that Cleveland was the first group to apply it to a group name. Here in Philadelphia, Jimmy B. was the promoter of the Double A. He came here to sell polish for the two men who were going to put Dupont out of business with the Honor's polish Co. Bill W and Henry"Hank" Parkhurst owned that company and Jimmy was their salesman. Ruth Hock was the secretary. Edwin Throckmorton Thatcher was in Philadelphia and not in touch with the NY mother group You guessed it , they sent Jimmy the non-believer to Philadelphia to look for Ebby , hawk some books and oh yeah to sell some automobile polish. Does anyone have a can of that polish? There were already sober men in the city in Feb of 1940 via the O.G. and with the help of Dr. C Dudley Saul. They met in the Doctors office on a regular basis. Most notable of the sober men before Jimmy came to Philadelphia was John Park Lee.He said that Jimmy brought sponsorship and emphasized the AA message that alcoholics were sick people. Jimmy had Bought $200.00 of the stock,hawked the most big books, demanded "God as I understand Him" , "The only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking"as well as his own story "The vicious Cycle to the Big Book. Jimmy got the medical community to support AA as well as Judge Curtis Bok, owner of the Saturday Evening Post. The Philadelphia Mother group, not just Jimmy, played a part in the publication of the Jack Alexander Article which was the greatest single boost to AA. Jimmy helped in the creation of AA in Harrisburg, Wilmington, Baltimore and in Washington D.C. with his childhood buddy John Henry Fitzhugh Mayo. Jimmy saw that NY had the first clubhouse so he got the Philly boys to get the first full service clubhouse ( a lunch counter). He had them become the 1st group to financially support New York. They started the 1st regular visits to a hospital(4/1940) by a group as well as the 1st regular visits to a prison.(9/1940) They also started the 1st monthly business meeting of a group(12/1940) and one of the first Young peoples group .(6/1946) Where have all the members of AA with this kind of energy and persistence gone? If something needed to be done, you did it. Would AA and its present service structure be able to survive if men like Clarence S, Larry J ,Fitz M, Jimmy B were around now and doing what they did? It kind of makes you wonder. I'd like to hear about other cities and what AA was like there. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz See You in Phoenix Sept 6-9- The 11th National Archives Workshop and Area 29 Dist 6 Archives Workshop..Sat May 26, 12:30-5:30 P.M. Christ Episcopal Church 220 Owensville Rd. West River, MD.(where Jimmy B and Fitz M were raised and are now buried) Picnic, Speakers Meeting andHistorical Presentations..A great time........ ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4284. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... From: silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2007 8:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to Mitchell's Book, How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997 Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the first documented meeting which used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the Oxford Group." However, there seems to be a little more light to shed on the subject. From a page on the AA GSO Watch website there is the following stated: You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 165 The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had appeared very early in the discussion, probably in October, 1938. We do not know who first used these words. That is questionable. As we discovered recently it appeared more than half year earlier around March 1938. How do we know that? We read ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 159. "At 17 William Street, Newark, New Jersey, Henry had an office which was the headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also had a secretary named Ruth Hock, who was to become one of A.A.'s real pioneers. The other assets consisted of a huge desk and some plush furniture. Each morning I traveled all the way from Brooklyn to Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office, I began to dictate rough drafts of the chapters of the coming book. As we seemed unable to come up with any genuine outline for the publication, I worked from a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings. Week after week, Henry raced around among the stock subscribers, prodding them for their installments." One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings". What was that? Some overdue research revealed the answer. In fact said a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings was a complete outline for our book Alcoholics Anonymous, created and written by Hank Parkhurst around March 1938. download document hank38.pdf 471kB Chapter 1 - Being dictated - Preface of the Book - History of this work - Questions and answers - Why the Book - What is needed - The Program - List of Chapters - The aim of the book - What is an alcoholic - The medical chapter - The Sales Promotion Possibilities - In the book should be suggestions regarding hospitalization Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's handwriting] Hanks ideas Click on image to enlarge 2 Why the Book It has been estimated by the Rockefeller Foundation that there are over a million incurable, from medical or psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics in the United States. These men realize their vital need and are desperately seeking the answer. The book should be so written that it will prove the answer to these people. The work has become so broad that full time assistance and direction is needed. This costs money (which has been offered by foundational funds) however the alcoholics believe it should come from within their own experience. Click on image to enlarge 3 Questions and Answers - 1. The question is often asked - where does the money come from for this work? 2. How do I know this will work with me? Why is this method better than any other religious method? (It is not - this is only a step toward a religious experience which should be carried forward in christian fellowship no matter what your church) 3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct up to these highest standards? 4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual relapse? 5. There is so much talk about a religious experience - what is it? Click on image to enlarge 4 Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market - 1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller Foundation) 2. At least million non alcoholics that have definite alcoholic relatives 3. Every employer of 100 or more people 4. Those that take an academic interest. [a] 5. Two hundred and ten thousand ministers [b] 6. One hundred sixty nine thousand physicians. 7. The total would be well over three million prospects [c] [a] this entry was first written as number 6, but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the entry was promoted with an arrow [b] First written as "Half million ministers" [c] The word "three" was written over "a" Click on image to enlarge 5 Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the work - Possibly this could be carried on the first two pages of the book. This history should establish proof of success of the work and carry hope to everyone that reads that much. The opening to the book should arouse the emotion of hope. Click on image to enlarge 6 Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment must be worked out. This will acknowledge the receipt of the enquiry [sic] and will inform that the writer can secure the book by mailing two dollars [d] or through their local bookseller who can secure from Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc. Post Box xxxx The profits of the book are administered by a foundation for promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first written as "mailing a buck for" Click on image to enlarge 7 Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published by ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC A NON PROFIT organization for the promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. Profits accruing from sale of this book will be [e] administered by a foundation for promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. Members of this foundation......... Post Box... xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and changed to "will be" Click on image to enlarge 8 Observations - One of the easiest and most talked of things among us is a religious experience. I believe that this is incomprehensible to most people. Simple and meaning words to us - but meaningless to most of the people that we are trying to get this over too. - In my mind religious experience - religion - etc - should not be brought in. We are actually irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful - we have learned to be quiet - to be more truthful - to be more honest - to try to be more unselfish - to make the other fellows troubles - our troubles - and by following four steps we most of us have a religious experience. The fellowship - the unselfishness - appeals to us. I wonder if we are off the track. A very good merchandising procedure is to find out why people do not buy our products - it is good reasoning to find out WHY - I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing religious experience when actually that is something that follows as a result of 1-2-3-4. In my mind the question is not particularly the strength of the experience as much as the improvement over what we were. I would ask a man to compare himself as follows after say a month - #1 - as compared to 2 months ago do you have more of a feeling that there is a power greater than you? #2 - Have you cleaned out more completely with a human being than ever before? #3 - Have you less bad things behind you than ever before #4 Have you been Click on image to enlarge 9 more honest with yourself and your fellow man - Have you been more thoughtful of people with whom you are associated - Has your life been cleaner both by thought and action - Have you looked at others less critically and yourself more critically this past 30 days. You will never be perfect but the question is have you been more perfect? Click on image to enlarge 10 Alcoholism May be best be defined to the average person by pointing out its leading symptoms and indicating how these reactions differ from the affects of alcohol on normal persons. 1. Total inability to control drinking once drinking is started. 2. Antisocial behavior of these people when intoxicated A. Marked insanity 1. Little relation the - persons normal behavior or ordinary exuberant drinker or drunk Publicity Newspapers When book is nearly ready to leave the presses a short mat article should be sent to the 12,285 newspapers in the U.S. This article would briefly cover the work as it has gone to date. Case histories would be covered. - It possibly would be a brief case history of the work and announcement of the book. At least four news bulletins should be published at weekly intervals, ahead of the book. Click on image to enlarge Here is such article -- pushed by Hank Click on image to enlarge Jim from silkworth.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4285. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: conference-approved From: pvttimt@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2007 5:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Arthur said, "...there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says." Tim T., an alky. I'm reminded of a situation here in New Mexico some years ago. A well-regarded trusted servant led a project to rewrite our Area service manual, which describes our Area's service structure, the district mapping, etc. He bent over backwards trying to keep all districts and groups involved in an "informed" process, fully democratic in every way. The result of this was that, at every area assembly, the new GSRs, et. al. who had not seen the current draft, had to have their way with it. The process bogged down and became mostly a "bringing everyone up to speed" process at each assembly. Progress on the actual document was excruciatingly slow. After many, many assemblies had passed with no light at the end of the tunnel, he appealed to the Area. Once we all realized that nothing material was changing, that the needed changes had long since been made, approval was achieved and we had a working tool in our hands once again. One wonders if Arthur's claim that the groups, districts, areas should have far more influence would not deteriorate in the same way. Are we to believe that the delegates that are assigned to a particular committee, say Grapevine, do not adequately represent the fellowship? Do they not have a "right of decision?" After their work, would review by the groups, districts and areas introduce any material changes, or would changes merely be cosmetic? To Arthur's comment on the absurdity of equating online meetings with f2f home groups, I wonder if the homers, loners, nursing-home AA residents, et.al., who must depend on the internet for their daily AA look down on this, their only access, with the same disdain? Best regards. Tim. -----Original Message----- From: ArtSheehan@msn.com To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 6:45 AM Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to "clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they cleared up. The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda. I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't be done for literature (all literature). New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group" pamphlet, 12and12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings with the home group. Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the background material). She was denied access to it until right before the Conference floor session. When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out each year. Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says. End of rant (Rule #62). Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows for the protection of the author or entity holding copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate holds more weight legally than the other method if challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright Office as it nears completion and when it is completed submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent out for review, the original copyright is in force and even if the language is changed I am sure that there might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway, even after a copyright is secured including a copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar document changing the words etc. and get away with it. What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times but some of that confusion might lead to a greater acceptnce by the Fellowship at large. Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on literature sent out for review anyway? This "top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level. Mitchell --- Arthur S wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with > me at all over the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any > means, but with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright > protection" being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an > excuse to withhold review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors > can shed some light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid > copyright concerns involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny > Delegates (or for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of > literature well prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical > aspect to any publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't > be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO > uses a notion of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process > top-secret and known only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed > work cannot be circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review > planned changes to the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it > could not be done in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't > seem to hold water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an > author need only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order > to establish initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going > through the full legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of > james.bliss@comcast.net > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4286. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: conference-approved From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2007 5:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 4/24/07 5:01:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ArtSheehan@msn.com writes: In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to "clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they cleared up. The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda. I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't be done for literature (all literature). New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group" pamphlet, 12and12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings with the home group. Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the background material). She was denied access to it until right before the Conference floor session. When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out each year. Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says. End of rant (Rule #62). Arthur -----Original Message----- From: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) [mailto:_AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM To: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows for the protection of the author or entity holding copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate holds more weight legally than the other method if challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright Office as it nears completion and when it is completed submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent out for review, the original copyright is in force and even if the language is changed I am sure that there might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway, even after a copyright is secured including a copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar document changing the words etc. and get away with it. What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times but some of that confusion might lead to a greater acceptnce by the Fellowship at large. Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on literature sent out for review anyway? This "top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level. Mitchell --- Arthur S <_ArtSheehan@msn.Art_ (mailto:ArtSheehan@msn.com) > wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with > me at all over the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any > means, but with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright > protection" being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an > excuse to withhold review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors > can shed some light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid > copyright concerns involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny > Delegates (or for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of > literature well prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical > aspect to any publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't > be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO > uses a notion of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process > top-secret and known only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed > work cannot be circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review > planned changes to the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it > could not be done in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't > seem to hold water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an > author need only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order > to establish initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going > through the full legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) > [mailto:_AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf > Of > _james.bliss@james.bliss_ (mailto:james.bliss@comcast.net) > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_ (mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links This is not my experience..............my area has a spring and Fall Assembly where all the new proposed agenda items are listed for change and the groups have work shops who represent each of their groups. They then discuss the agenda items for our delegate to bring back to the conference as our collective vote. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4287. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2007 8:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you. One of the several pages in a re-write for a second edition will correct that statement. The name Alcoholics ANonymous had been used as the title of the proposed book, organization and as the fellowship in general prior to April of 1939. I still believe that the first meeting or group to call itself an Alcoholics ANonymous group or meeting was the Golrick Group/Cleveland Group. There are a few other pieces I am going to clarify, remove, expand upon and add in the re-write. Mitchell --- silkworthdotnet wrote: > According to Mitchell's Book, > How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER > AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN > CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997 > Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of > anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May > 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which > first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it > took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is > the first documented meeting which used the name > Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the > Oxford Group." > > However, there seems to be a little more light to > shed on the subject. From a page on the AA GSO Watch > website there is the following stated: > > You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF > AGE, page 165 > > The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had > appeared very early in the discussion, probably in > October, 1938. We do not know who first used these > words. That is questionable. As we discovered > recently it appeared more than half year earlier > around March 1938. How do we know that? We read > ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 159. > "At 17 William Street, Newark, New > Jersey, Henry had an office which was the > headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also > had a secretary named Ruth Hock, who was to become > one of A.A.'s real pioneers. The other assets > consisted of a huge desk and some plush furniture. > Each morning I traveled all the way from Brooklyn to > Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office, > I began to dictate rough drafts of the chapters of > the coming book. As we seemed unable to come up with > any genuine outline for the publication, I worked > from a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter > headings. Week after week, Henry raced around among > the stock subscribers, prodding them for their > installments." > > One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily > drawn-up list of possible chapter headings". What > was that? Some overdue research revealed the answer. > In fact said a hastily drawn-up list of possible > chapter headings was a complete outline for our book > Alcoholics Anonymous, created and written by Hank > Parkhurst around March 1938. download document > hank38.pdf 471kB > > > > Chapter 1 - Being dictated - > Preface of the Book - > History of this work - > Questions and answers - > Why the Book - > What is needed - > The Program - > List of Chapters - > The aim of the book - > What is an alcoholic - > The medical chapter - > The Sales Promotion Possibilities - > In the book should be suggestions regarding > hospitalization > Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's > handwriting] Hanks ideas > > > Click on image to enlarge > 2 > Why the Book It has been estimated by the > Rockefeller > Foundation that there are over a > million incurable, from medical or > psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics > in the United States. > These men realize their vital > need and are desperately seeking > the answer. The book should be so > written that it will prove the > answer to these people. > The work has become so broad > that full time assistance and > direction is needed. This costs > money (which has been offered > by foundational funds) however the > alcoholics believe it should > come from within their own > experience. > > > > Click on image to enlarge > 3 > Questions and Answers - 1. The question is often > asked - where does the money > come from for this work? > 2. How do I know this will work with me? > Why is this method better than any other > religious > method? (It is not - this is only a step toward > a > religious experience which should be carried > forward > in christian fellowship no matter what your > church) > 3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct > up to these highest standards? > 4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual > relapse? > 5. There is so much talk about a religious > experience > - what is it? > > > > Click on image to enlarge > 4 > Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market - > 1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller > Foundation) > 2. At least million non alcoholics > that have definite alcoholic > relatives > 3. Every employer of 100 or > more people > 4. Those that take an > academic interest. [a] > 5. Two hundred and ten thousand ministers [b] > 6. One hundred sixty nine thousand > physicians. > 7. The total would be well > over three million prospects [c] [a] this > entry was first written as number 6, > but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the > entry was promoted with an arrow > [b] First written as "Half million ministers" > [c] The word "three" was written over "a" > > > > Click on image to enlarge > 5 > Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the > work - > Possibly this could be carried on > the first two pages of the book. > This history should establish > proof of success of the work > and carry hope to everyone > that reads that much. > The opening to the book > should arouse the emotion > of hope. > > > > Click on image to enlarge > 6 > Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment > > must be worked out. > This will acknowledge the receipt > of the enquiry [sic] and will inform > that the writer can secure the > book by mailing two dollars [d] > or through their local bookseller > who can secure from > Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc. > Post Box xxxx The profits of the book > are administered > by a foundation for promotion of > cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first > written as "mailing a buck for" > > > Click on image to enlarge > 7 > Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published > by > ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC > A NON PROFIT organization > for the promotion of > cure and understanding > of alcoholism. Profits accruing from > sale > of this book will be [e] administered > by a foundation for promotion > of cure and understanding > of alcoholism. Members of > this foundation......... Post Box... > xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and > changed > to "will be" > > Click on image to enlarge 8 > Observations - One of the easiest and most > talked === message truncated === IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... From: silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2007 10:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For those interested, because of the way this was posted wasn'at as I intended (because of tables, colors, and images of Hanks letter), here is the link to Hanks Letter and to chapter 5 of Mitchells Book: http://silkworth.net/gsowatch/1938/index.htm - Hanks letter http://silkworth.net/chs/chs05.html - Chapter 5 of Mitchell's Book silkworthdotnet wrote: According to Mitchell's Book, How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997 Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the first documented meeting which used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the Oxford Group." However, there seems to be a little more light to shed on the subject. From a page on the AA GSO Watch website there is the following stated: You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 165 The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had appeared very early in the discussion, probably in October, 1938. We do not know who first used these words. That is questionable. As we discovered recently it appeared more than half year earlier around March 1938. How do we know that? We read ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 159. "At 17 William Street, Newark, New Jersey, Henry had an office which was the headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also had a secretary named Ruth Hock, who was to become one of A.A.'s real pioneers. The other assets consisted of a huge desk and some plush furniture. Each morning I traveled all the way from Brooklyn to Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office, I began to dictate rough drafts of the chapters of the coming book. As we seemed unable to come up with any genuine outline for the publication, I worked from a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings. Week after week, Henry raced around among the stock subscribers, prodding them for their installments." One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings". What was that? Some overdue research revealed the answer. In fact said a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings was a complete outline for our book Alcoholics Anonymous, created and written by Hank Parkhurst around March 1938. download document hank38.pdf 471kB Chapter 1 - Being dictated - Preface of the Book - History of this work - Questions and answers - Why the Book - What is needed - The Program - List of Chapters - The aim of the book - What is an alcoholic - The medical chapter - The Sales Promotion Possibilities - In the book should be suggestions regarding hospitalization Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's handwriting] Hanks ideas Click on image to enlarge 2 Why the Book It has been estimated by the Rockefeller Foundation that there are over a million incurable, from medical or psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics in the United States. These men realize their vital need and are desperately seeking the answer. The book should be so written that it will prove the answer to these people. The work has become so broad that full time assistance and direction is needed. This costs money (which has been offered by foundational funds) however the alcoholics believe it should come from within their own experience. Click on image to enlarge 3 Questions and Answers - 1. The question is often asked - where does the money come from for this work? 2. How do I know this will work with me? Why is this method better than any other religious method? (It is not - this is only a step toward a religious experience which should be carried forward in christian fellowship no matter what your church) 3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct up to these highest standards? 4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual relapse? 5. There is so much talk about a religious experience - what is it? Click on image to enlarge 4 Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market - 1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller Foundation) 2. At least million non alcoholics that have definite alcoholic relatives 3. Every employer of 100 or more people 4. Those that take an academic interest. [a] 5. Two hundred and ten thousand ministers [b] 6. One hundred sixty nine thousand physicians. 7. The total would be well over three million prospects [c] [a] this entry was first written as number 6, but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the entry was promoted with an arrow [b] First written as "Half million ministers" [c] The word "three" was written over "a" Click on image to enlarge 5 Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the work - Possibly this could be carried on the first two pages of the book. This history should establish proof of success of the work and carry hope to everyone that reads that much. The opening to the book should arouse the emotion of hope. Click on image to enlarge 6 Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment must be worked out. This will acknowledge the receipt of the enquiry [sic] and will inform that the writer can secure the book by mailing two dollars [d] or through their local bookseller who can secure from Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc. Post Box xxxx The profits of the book are administered by a foundation for promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first written as "mailing a buck for" Click on image to enlarge 7 Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published by ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC A NON PROFIT organization for the promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. Profits accruing from sale of this book will be [e] administered by a foundation for promotion of cure and understanding of alcoholism. Members of this foundation......... Post Box... xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and changed to "will be" Click on image to enlarge 8 Observations - One of the easiest and most talked of things among us is a religious experience. I believe that this is incomprehensible to most people. Simple and meaning words to us - but meaningless to most of the people that we are trying to get this over too. - In my mind religious experience - religion - etc - should not be brought in. We are actually irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful - we have learned to be quiet - to be more truthful - to be more honest - to try to be more unselfish - to make the other fellows troubles - our troubles - and by following four steps we most of us have a religious experience. The fellowship - the unselfishness - appeals to us. I wonder if we are off the track. A very good merchandising procedure is to find out why people do not buy our products - it is good reasoning to find out WHY - I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing religious experience when actually that is something that follows as a result of 1-2-3-4. In my mind the question is not particularly the strength of the experience as much as the improvement over what we were. I would ask a man to compare himself as follows after say a month - #1 - as compared to 2 months ago do you have more of a feeling that there is a power greater than you? #2 - Have you cleaned out more completely with a human being than ever before? #3 - Have you less bad things behind you than ever before #4 Have you been Click on image to enlarge 9 more honest with yourself and your fellow man - Have you been more thoughtful of people with whom you are associated - Has your life been cleaner both by thought and action - Have you looked at others less critically and yourself more critically this past 30 days. You will never be perfect but the question is have you been more perfect? Click on image to enlarge 10 Alcoholism May be best be defined to the average person by pointing out its leading symptoms and indicating how these reactions differ from the affects of alcohol on normal persons. 1. Total inability to control drinking once drinking is started. 2. Antisocial behavior of these people when intoxicated A. Marked insanity 1. Little relation the - persons normal behavior or ordinary exuberant drinker or drunk Publicity Newspapers When book is nearly ready to leave the presses a short mat article should be sent to the 12,285 newspapers in the U.S. This article would briefly cover the work as it has gone to date. Case histories would be covered. - It possibly would be a brief case history of the work and announcement of the book. At least four news bulletins should be published at weekly intervals, ahead of the book. Click on image to enlarge Here is such article -- pushed by Hank Click on image to enlarge Jim from silkworth.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4289. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: conference-approved From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2007 5:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm reminded of a situation in NY and Akron some many decades ago. Everyone who was an AA member then had a direct opportunity to influence the drafts of a project to write a book of experience. It was the only time in AA history where that occurred. The efforts of those members produced the Big Book during 1938 and 1939. It might serve to illustrate why the book has such high stature in the Fellowship. That of course would not be practical today with nearly 2 million members. However, there is a Conference structure in place where the inverted triangle could be put into genuine practice, if perhaps someone would like to give it a try, if only as an experiment. There are no time-critical literature projects other than directories and perhaps memorial booklets for International Conventions. Their might be impatient authors but outside of directories there are no deadlines for pamphlets, books or other literature unless someone manufactures one. Using the example of a trusted servant writing an area service manual does not seem relevant. First off the development of an area manual or policies and procedures document should be a function of a special committee not a single trusted servant. Also without access to the document it is difficult to distinguish whether the delay was a matter of the quantity of its reviewers or the quality of its content. A few years ago I was involved in a committee project to write job descriptions for all the trusted servants. It took over a year and that seemed reasonable. During that same time period we also produced a set of Area Archives Guidelines and recommended Archives Guidelines for groups. When a committee brings a written project forward for assembly approval, if there is unanimity among the committee members then assembly attendees usually seem inclined to trust their trusted servants. If the committee consists of one member then it will likely take an extraordinary length of time or not follow through to completion. As for the home-bound, loners, internationalists, nursing home or hospital patients, Special Needs Committees perform a vital service to the ill and disabled to either bring them to meetings or bring meetings to them (at least in my state they do). GSO has sponsored a long-term correspondence outreach to loners and internationalists. These members can certainly benefit from internet or short-wave radio contact with other members and I'm not criticizing that point. The statement in the foreword to the 4th edition was: "Fundamentally, though, the difference between an electronic meeting and the home group around the corner is only one of format." That statement is absurd. Enough other folks thought so as well to cause it to be removed from the foreword. Further if one is going to use a segment of the population to illustrate a point, it is probably a bit more consistent with Tradition 1 to use the population segment in which something happens the most as opposed to the least. Finally, if I truly had a disdain for AA members using the internet to reach out to other AA members I would not be a part of this forum. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pvttimt@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 4:44 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved Arthur said, "...there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says." Arthur Tim T., an alky. I'm reminded of a situation here in New Mexico some years ago. A well-regarded trusted servant led a project to rewrite our Area service manual, which describes our Area's service structure, the district mapping, etc. He bent over backwards trying to keep all districts and groups involved in an "informed" process, fully democratic in every way. The result of this was that, at every area assembly, the new GSRs, et. al. who had not seen the current draft, had to have their way with it. The process bogged down and became mostly a "bringing everyone up to speed" process at each assembly. Progress on the actual document was excruciatingly slow. After many, many assemblies had passed with no light at the end of the tunnel, he appealed to the Area. Once we all realized that nothing material was changing, that the needed changes had long since been made, approval was achieved and we had a working tool in our hands once again. One wonders if Arthur's claim that the groups, districts, areas should have far more influence would not deteriorate in the same way. Are we to believe that the delegates that are assigned to a particular committee, say Grapevine, do not adequately represent the fellowship? Do they not have a "right of decision?" After their work, would review by the groups, districts and areas introduce any material changes, or would changes merely be cosmetic? To Arthur's comment on the absurdity of equating online meetings with f2f home groups, I wonder if the homers, loners, nursing-home AA residents, et.al., who must depend on the internet for their daily AA look down on this, their only access, with the same disdain? Best regards. Tim. -----Original Message----- From: ArtSheehan@msn.com To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 6:45 AM Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to "clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they cleared up. The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda. I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't be done for literature (all literature). New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group" pamphlet, 12and12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings with the home group. Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the background material). She was denied access to it until right before the Conference floor session. When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out each year. Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups, districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says. End of rant (Rule #62). Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows for the protection of the author or entity holding copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate holds more weight legally than the other method if challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright Office as it nears completion and when it is completed submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent out for review, the original copyright is in force and even if the language is changed I am sure that there might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway, even after a copyright is secured including a copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar document changing the words etc. and get away with it. What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times but some of that confusion might lead to a greater acceptnce by the Fellowship at large. Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on literature sent out for review anyway? This "top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level. Mitchell --- Arthur S wrote: > Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with > me at all over the > years. > > Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any > means, but with his > very factual statement of the notion of "copyright > protection" being used by > the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an > excuse to withhold review > copies of literature from Delegates and Groups. > > Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors > can shed some light on > the situation on whether or not there are valid > copyright concerns involved. > > To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny > Delegates (or for that > matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of > literature well prior to > its publication. > > Outside of Directories there is no time-critical > aspect to any publication > nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't > be added on to the > publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO > uses a notion of a > "work in progress" to make the entire process > top-secret and known only to a > select few and then claims copies of the completed > work cannot be circulated > in order to protect the copyright. > > Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review > planned changes to the "AA > Group" pamphlet and received the response that it > could not be done in order > to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't > seem to hold water to me, > particularly in an age of digital rights management. > > > My understanding of the copyright process is that an > author need only mark a > work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order > to establish initial > legal intellectual property rights prior to going > through the full legal > copyright process. Is this true? > > Cheers > Arthur > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of > james.bliss@comcast.net > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved > > With respect to Arthur S's statement below: > > There is a very limited number of people who > even have access to the literature with its > changes prior to the vote (substantial changes > or new literature). The Delegates may have > an opportunity to review the material > immediately prior to the vote, but the actual > changes, or new literature, is only distributed > to the people who are on the committee for > formal review and input, and they make > written recommendations regarding the changes. > > A point of interest here is that the groups > (and therefore individual members) have no > access to the literature (new or significant > changes) prior to it being approved and > published. Sort of goes against the concept > of AA being run by the groups. > > Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording) > are often published for review to the groups. > It is just significant changes, rewrites and > new literature which is not. I have been > informed this is due to a fear of copyright > issues and the material being purloined by > others. > > Jim > > > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates > > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece > > of literature prior to voting on it. The > > review is usually done by a committee of > > several Delegates. The remainder of the > > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen, > > for/against the literature based on the > > recommendation of the committee (that's how > > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement > > about on-line meetings and the punctuation > > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other > > changes slipped past Conference review). While > > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only > > a fraction of them actually gets to read it > > prior to voting. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4290. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: RE: conference-approved From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2007 5:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Continuing this thread with the theme "Our Twelfth Step Responsibility-Area We Going to Any Lengths?"--- This year's General Service Conference has an opportunity to approve or disapprove the proposal to discontinue printing the AA Meeting Directories (US and Canada). It has the idea that AAs can access the Internet, for example, to find a meeting anywhere out of the US Eastern Directory. It's a first, but a password-controlled list, an unavailability of computers, and a few other points make this proposal from the Maine Area Delegate a bit rough to implement. Conference Report and Charter Committee may take the best route and "take no action." Conference-approved material, available at all groups (but without a contact and printed list booklets?) would slow down our traveling recoveries and 12th Step efforts with an online Directory. Rick, Illinois _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:51 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4291. . . . . . . . . . . . "Master Copy" of Big Book to be Auctioned Again From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2007 4:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been informed by a reliable source that the `Original Manuscript' of the Big Book which was auctioned off by Sotheby's in June of 2004 (for $1,576,000!) will again be offered for sale at auction on June 22nd. Sotheby's has set the estimated value for this sale at $900,000 to $1,200,000. (NOTE: it was set at $300,000 to $500,000 in 2004.) Sotheby's physical description of the book in 2004 was as follows: "Original annotated multilith copy, a working draft of Alcoholics Anonymous, with a multitude of annotations by William Griffith Wilson ("Bill W.") and others, 161 pages (3 are handwritten in pencil by several hands), New York, 1938, with presentation leaf by Lois Wilson: "I joyfully give this multilith copy of the AA book, one of my most precious possessions, to you, dear Barry, as evidence of my deep gratitude for all you have done for AA, for Al-Anon, and particularly for me ... 1/1/78"; annotations in lead, green, and red pencil, lightly browned. Each leaf encased in mylar and bound in a blue cloth binder, morocco lettering-piece ("Printer's Copy M[anu]s [cript])"; joints and corners rubbed." This is the `master copy' of the `Multilith Edition' – the one into which Hank Parkhurst, Ruth Hoch and Bill Wilson transcribed ALL of the suggested changes to the Big Book text as they were submitted to them in late 1938 and early 1939. (I believe that most of the annotations are in Hank's – rather than Bill's – handwriting.) Despite the title on the more recent binding, at some later point, using this `master copy as a reference, a `printer's copy' was prepared for Cornwall Press – but, to my knowledge, that `printer's copy' has never been located. The `master copy' being auctioned is of the highest historical importance providing an essential record of how our Book was put together. While it is possible to take any one of the rare surviving multilith copy of the `Original Manuscript' and compare it to a 1st edition, 1st printing copy to see what changes were made, this `master copy' occasionally shows who made the suggestions and, more important, clearly shows what suggestions were NOT taken by the final editors of the Big Book. This provides invaluable insight into the final editor's creative thought process and into their true understanding of what did and did not constitute the true AA program just as the book went to press. As is usual with book auctions, this Original Manuscript will be available for viewing (and handling!) a few days before the auction in New York City. (In 2004, my sponsor and I traveled down there to `put our hands on the book' and, I must say, it was a very moving experience.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4292. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Master Copy" of Big Book to be Auctioned Again From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2007 6:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Regarding the auction of the manuscript the auction will be held on June 21st according to Sothebys not June 22nd. Fiona [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4293. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book "Outline" From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2007 4:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Although styled as "Hanks [sic] letter [sic]", the twelve pages of lined tablet appear to be handwritten notes from two, or possibly three, different persons. The pages are undated and untitled. The handwriting saying "Hanks ideas" is most likely Bill Wilson's inscription, but does anyone have facts to authenticate that any of the writing on those twelve pages is Hank Parkhurst's? It is significant that the notation "Hanks ideas" come AFTER the purported outline,not before; consequently, Hank's ideas would be the material coming after the putative outline. The first page is not an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some, but appears to be an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book. In any case, few if any of those ideas made their way into the Big Book. It seems quite a stretch to claim that the first page is an outline of what became the Big Book. While "Hanks ideas" didn't make it into the manuscript or the First Printing, they DID become the incubator for the Spiritual Experience Appendix in the Second Printing [and subsequent printings/editions]. john lee pittsburgh-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, silkworthdotnet wrote: > > For those interested, because of the way this was posted wasn'at as I intended (because of tables, colors, and images of Hanks letter), here is the link to Hanks Letter and to chapter 5 of Mitchells Book: > > http://silkworth.net/gsowatch/1938/index.htm - Hanks letter > > http://silkworth.net/chs/chs05.html - Chapter 5 of Mitchell's Book > > silkworthdotnet wrote: > According to Mitchell's Book, > How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997 > Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the first documented meeting which used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the Oxford Group." > > However, there seems to be a little more light to shed on the subject. From a page on the AA GSO Watch website there is the following stated: > > You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 165 > > The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had appeared very early in the discussion, probably in October, 1938. We do not know who first used these words. That is questionable. As we discovered recently it appeared more than half year earlier around March 1938. How do we know that? We read ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 159. > "At 17 William Street, Newark, New Jersey, Henry had an office which was the headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also had a secretary named Ruth Hock, who was to become one of A.A.'s real pioneers. The other assets consisted of a huge desk and some plush furniture. Each morning I traveled all the way from Brooklyn to Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office, I began to dictate rough drafts of the chapters of the coming book. As we seemed unable to come up with any genuine outline for the publication, I worked from a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings. Week after week, Henry raced around among the stock subscribers, prodding them for their installments." > > One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings". What was that? Some overdue research revealed the answer. In fact said a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings was a complete outline for our book Alcoholics Anonymous, created and written by Hank Parkhurst around March 1938. download document hank38.pdf 471kB > > Chapter 1 - Being dictated - > Preface of the Book - > History of this work - > Questions and answers - > Why the Book - > What is needed - > The Program - > List of Chapters - > The aim of the book - > What is an alcoholic - > The medical chapter - > The Sales Promotion Possibilities - > In the book should be suggestions regarding > hospitalization > Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's handwriting] Hanks ideas > > > Click on image to enlarge 2 > Why the Book It has been estimated by the Rockefeller > Foundation that there are over a > million incurable, from medical or > psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics > in the United States. > These men realize their vital > need and are desperately seeking > the answer. The book should be so > written that it will prove the > answer to these people. > The work has become so broad > that full time assistance and > direction is needed. This costs > money (which has been offered > by foundational funds) however the > alcoholics believe it should > come from within their own > experience. > > > > Click on image to enlarge 3 > Questions and Answers - 1. The question is often asked - where does the money > come from for this work? > 2. How do I know this will work with me? > Why is this method better than any other religious > method? (It is not - this is only a step toward a > religious experience which should be carried forward > in christian fellowship no matter what your church) > 3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct > up to these highest standards? > 4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual > relapse? > 5. There is so much talk about a religious experience > - what is it? > > > > Click on image to enlarge 4 > Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market - > 1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller Foundation) > 2. At least million non alcoholics > that have definite alcoholic > relatives > 3. Every employer of 100 or > more people > 4. Those that take an > academic interest. [a] > 5. Two hundred and ten thousand ministers [b] > 6. One hundred sixty nine thousand > physicians. > 7. The total would be well > over three million prospects [c] [a] this entry was first written as number 6, > but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the > entry was promoted with an arrow > [b] First written as "Half million ministers" > [c] The word "three" was written over "a" > > > > Click on image to enlarge 5 > Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the work - > Possibly this could be carried on > the first two pages of the book. > This history should establish > proof of success of the work > and carry hope to everyone > that reads that much. > The opening to the book > should arouse the emotion > of hope. > > > > Click on image to enlarge 6 > Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment > must be worked out. > This will acknowledge the receipt > of the enquiry [sic] and will inform > that the writer can secure the > book by mailing two dollars [d] > or through their local bookseller > who can secure from > Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc. > Post Box xxxx The profits of the book are administered > by a foundation for promotion of > cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first written as "mailing a buck for" > > > Click on image to enlarge 7 > Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published by > ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC > A NON PROFIT organization > for the promotion of > cure and understanding > of alcoholism. Profits accruing from sale > of this book will be [e] administered > by a foundation for promotion > of cure and understanding > of alcoholism. Members of > this foundation......... Post Box... > xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and changed > to "will be" > > Click on image to enlarge 8 > Observations - One of the easiest and most talked of > things among us is a religious experience. > I believe that this is incomprehensible to > most people. Simple and meaning words > to us - but meaningless to most of > the people that we are trying to get > this over too. - In my mind religious > experience - religion - etc - should > not be brought in. We are actually > irreligious - but we are trying to be > helpful - we have learned to be > quiet - to be more truthful - to be > more honest - to try to be more > unselfish - to make the other fellows > troubles - our troubles - and by > following four steps we most of us > have a religious experience. The fellowship - > the unselfishness - appeals to us. > I wonder if we are off the track. > A very good merchandising > procedure is to find out why > people do not buy our > products - it is good reasoning > to find out WHY - I am fearfully > afraid that we are emphasizing > religious experience when actually > that is something that follows > as a result of 1-2-3-4. > In my mind the question is not particularly > the strength of the experience as > much as the improvement over > what we were. I would ask a > man to compare himself as follows > after say a month - > #1 - as compared to 2 months ago > do you have more of a feeling > that there is a power greater > than you? > #2 - Have you cleaned out more > completely with a human being > than ever before? > #3 - Have you less bad things > behind you than ever > before > #4 Have you been > > > Click on image to enlarge > 9 > more honest with yourself and your > fellow man - Have you been > more thoughtful of people with > whom you are associated - Has > your life been cleaner both by > thought and action - Have you > looked at others less critically and > yourself more critically this past > 30 days. You will never be > perfect but the question is > have you been more perfect? > Click on image to enlarge 10 > Alcoholism May be best be defined to the > average person by pointing out > its leading symptoms and indicating > how these reactions differ from the > affects of alcohol on normal persons. > 1. Total inability to control drinking > once drinking is started. > 2. Antisocial behavior of these people > when intoxicated > A. Marked insanity > 1. Little relation the - persons normal > behavior or ordinary > exuberant drinker or drunk > > > Publicity > Newspapers When book is nearly ready to > leave the presses a short mat > article should be sent to the > 12,285 newspapers in the U.S. > This article would briefly cover > the work as it has gone to date. > Case histories would be covered. > - It possibly would be a brief > case history of the work and > announcement of the book. > At least four news bulletins > should be published at weekly > intervals, ahead of the book. > > Click on image to enlarge > > Here is such article -- pushed by Hank > > Click on image to enlarge > > Jim from silkworth.net > > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4294. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Big Book "Outline" From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2007 5:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How I came upon that document was in fact to verify that it actually was Hank’s handwriting. I was asked by the then archivist at Stepping Stones to view the pages there. They had no samples of Hank’s handwriting to compare it with. I brought a few of Hank’s handwritten letters with me and we compared the document against actual samples. Another verification came through Merton M. who also is familiar with Hank’s writing (both style and actual handwriting). To my knowledge, Merton and I are probably two of the very few people around who actually could verify Hank’s handwriting. Neither Nell Wing nor Frank M. had samples of Hank’s handwriting to compare it to when I brought copies of the document to them. While some may argue semantics, what I wrote was that “Hanks ideas” was his outline FOR the book and not an outline OF the book. Hank’s notations were part of the discussion stages not only for the writing of the book but for the promotion of the book as well. The book was not yet written at that time and the first chapter was in the dictation stage. They were also discussing the demographics of what type of persons the stories would represent. Not included with Hank’s proposal published on-line was another document outlining prospective authors. These authors were not listed by name but by the listing of whether or not they were low bottom or high bottom, whether or not they had slipped, their occupation, geographic location, etc. Not published on the net but included with the document was also a list of occupations of prospective authors for the story section. There were 25 occupations numbered and listed. Some had a check next to the name. I’m not sure what the check signified but I will not where they appeared with an * (The first two are pretty obvious): 1. Broker * 2. Surgeon 3. Politician 4. Executive * 5. Sales Manager * 6. Author * 7. Radio Man 8. Laborer * 9. Accountant * 10. Proprietor very large retail business * 11. Housewife * 12. Mechanic * 13. Judge * 14. Insurance * 15. Teacher 16. Upholsterer 17. Gardener 18. Salesman 19. Book Agent 20. Test car driver 21. Farmer 22. Laboratory technician 23. banker 24. athlete 25. Oil man John States that : “The first page is not an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some, but appears to be an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book.” The first page is actually an outline of the proceeding pages. If it were merely a business plan to promote the book why then would it list: • Preface of the book • The Program • The aim of the book • What is an alcoholic • The medical chapter • In the book should be suggestions regarding hospitalization • Dr. Silkworth letters Page 2 states under “Why the Book,” that “The work has become so broad that full time assistance and direction is needed. This costs money (which has been offered by foundational funds) however the alcoholics believe it should come from within their own experience.” On page 3 under “Questions and Answers” it asks in part: • How do I know this will work with me? Why is this method better than any other religious method? (It is not – this is only a step toward a religious experience which should be carried forward in Christian fellowship no matter what your church) • Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct up to these highest standards? • What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual relapse? Under Suggestions for Chapter 1 on page 5 it calls for “A History of the work – Possibly this could be carried on the first two pages of the book. This history should establish proof of success of the work and carry ‘hope’ to everyone that reads that much. The opening of the book should arouse the emotion of hope.” This does not sound like a sales promotion but rather a suggestion relating to the actual writing and outline for the book. This document relates not only to the sales and promotion of the yet unwritten book, it addresses proposals for what Hank feels should be included and why these subjects should be included. There is no significance as to where in the document Bill wrote “Hanks ideas”. Bill wanted to identify whose ideas these were and the bottom of the page was open. Hank probably handed these pages to Bill and they discussed them. Bill wanted to file these with materials relating to the writing of the book as the book was being written and wrote “Hanks ideas” as a means of identification of whose ideas the were. Bill did not hand Hank a blank piece of paper with the title Hank’s Ideas and ask Hank to write an essay. Hank and Bill were partners in the work and the fact that equal partners do not need to quibble about whether or not Bill’s notation came BEFORE or AFTER the “purported” outline of suggested ideas for the book and promotion of the book. Taking the document in its entirety, it is in no way just a sales promotion prospectus or “Business Plan.” Given the fact that Bill and Hank were partners in the writing of the book, they bounced ideas off each other in that very small office on the 6h floor at 17 William St in Newark. Also, to infer that Hank’s ideas did not make it into the book does not take into account what is addressed in the entire document. Maybe not specific subject titles on the cover page but in fact what made it into the book IS covered in this document. In conclusion – Verification that the document was Hank’s handwriting was made by comparing actual letters written by Hank against the original document by several individuals – Frank M., Nell Wing, myself, Merton M. and the then archivist at Stepping stones. The document came from Stepping Stones and were part of Bill’s materials relating to the writing of the book. Bill’s handwriting as to “Hanks ideas” was also verified by the aforementioned individuals. To infer that just because Bill annotated “Hanks ideas” AFTER the title page as anything other than as a means of identifying the document is also a stretch and to question the veracity of the document by words such as purported or putative implies fabrication. The FACT that the document was verified to be Hank’s handwriting by at least four individuals including the former archivist at GSO, the then current archivist at GSO, the then archivist at Stepping Stones and probably the only two other people in the world who had samples of Hank’s actual handwriting would probably stand up in court. The FACT that this document was part of Bill’s papers relating to the writing of the book and was housed in the archival repository at Bill and Lois’ home at Stepping Stones would verify its authenticity and also stand up in court. The FACT that if one looked at any author’s notes during the writing process of their books or papers one would usually not find these documents, ideas, scribbling, etc. dated or titled. I am also sure that if one looked at the handwritten story submissions also stored at Stepping Stones you would not find these dated or titled either. The actual titles for the stories in the book were not submitted by the authors of the stories but were decided upon AFTER the stories were submitted. I take umbrage to the inference of fabrication as well. I did not seek out this document. At the time it was discovered I was asked as one of probably only two or three people in the world familiar with Hank’s handwriting and in possession of actual letter written by Hank to verify the handwriting. As a matter of course I showed the document and samples of Hank’s handwriting to several other “experts” in AA documents to verify my findings. Mitchell K. --- johnlawlee wrote: > Although styled as "Hanks [sic] letter [sic]", the > twelve pages of > lined tablet appear to be handwritten notes from > two, or possibly > three, different persons. The pages are undated and > untitled. The > handwriting saying "Hanks ideas" is most likely Bill > Wilson's > inscription, but does anyone have facts to > authenticate that any of > the writing on those twelve pages is Hank > Parkhurst's? It is > significant that the notation "Hanks ideas" come > AFTER the purported > outline,not before; consequently, Hank's ideas would > be the material > coming after the putative outline. The first page > is not > an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some, > but appears to be > an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book. > In any case, few > if any of those ideas made their way into the Big > Book. It seems > quite a stretch to claim that the first page is an > outline of what > became the Big Book. While "Hanks ideas" didn't make > it into the > manuscript or the First Printing, they DID become > the incubator for > the Spiritual Experience Appendix in the Second > Printing [and > subsequent printings/editions]. > john lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4295. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Big Book "Outline" From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2007 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you for your post, Mitch, it clears up a bit of the intrigue about this rare archival item. If the "printer's manuscript" was purchased three years ago for $1.56 millions what will speculators pay this year? On one hand I am saddened that the item has not been placed in the AA Archives at GSO, and remain amused that its auction brings such deep pocketed people to the bidding. The AA Archives had no opinion on its auction in 2004 and I wouldn't expect any comment this year. Looks like "aahistorylovers" can help bring this in the light of day...I had the opportunity in 2004 to present the Sotheby's activity to my Area in its annual Big Book Conference and in my talk I shared that establishing private archives collections is an AA's personal choice. Some can spend a lot of money pursuing and purchasing AA memorabilia and may God bless them if they can keep their sobriety in the process. How we get to this point in 2007-this manuscript belonged to the estate of Barry L, the author of AAWS' Living Sober and a close friend of Lois Wilson. He also served as the chief writer for Al-Anon's Lois' Story. Apparently she held sympathy for Barry's claim that the early 1970s General Service Board had not competitively paid him for the work on the AAWS book and she gave the manuscript to him as a gift. 25 years later Barry's heirs decided to cash in on its sale. Of course, the item was a cherished part of Bill's estate, given to Barry in friendship. Bill's handwriting may or may not have been written in later years as he inventoried many of his papers (preceding the mid-1950s AA history project?) and I can't help but assume that the "book outline" from Hank was input toward a consensus on just how to organize and title the chapters. Another egroup recently discussed the authorship of the Big Book, which is "officially" denoted by the General Service Board as written by Bill, but the number of editors and the wide scope of building the consensus on its final form tells a beautiful story! Hank's organization skill was indispensable and Bill W.'s and Bob S.' insightful writing (as well as the AAs writing their own personal stories) was priceless. The assistance of Jim S. of Akron, Tom U. of NYC, Ruth Hock's dictation-typing, her language ability, and the last-minute editing by the Cornwall Press staff on the verbiage all came together to bring this work home to the world in February 1939. I am a better and more appreciative AA member and historian because of the actions of those founders. Rick, Illinois p.s. in that talk on the Big Book's history, instead of dropping names that no one would remember, the career occupations of Big Book writers (in all the first three editions) brought an insight to those at the conference and I credited this egroup (and our initial 'aahistorybuffs') as a primary source. Love to you all, ---R. _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:11 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Big Book "Outline" . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4296. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Big Book "Outline" From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2007 1:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mitchell, I never claimed that the twelve page document was false or forged. The terms "putative" and "purported" refer to your conclusion that the first page was an "outline" of the Big Book. It was no such thing. Please review your own How It Worked book where you make that claim repeatedly on pages 96, 98 and 102.[eg, "Hank wrote, in his outline for the book, p. 102"]. "Hanks ideas" did not make it into the Big Book. There is no evidence, direct or circumstantial, that the purported outline was even circulated to anyone other than Bill or Hank, let alone becoming the "guidelines for the writing efforts of AA's founders,who supplied their manuscripts (sic)", as claimed in your book at page 98. The ideas in those twelve pages did not make it into the big book, at least until the 1941 Second Printing when Hank's ideas about spiritual experience were included in the Spiritual Experience Appendix. It would be helpful if you posted the alleged samples of Hank's writings on the Internet, so impartial parties could compare those writings with the purported "outline". love+service, john lee vist@yahoo.com> wrote: How I came upon that document was in fact to verify that it actually was Hank’s handwriting. I was asked by the then archivist at Stepping Stones to view the pages there. They had no samples of Hank’s handwriting to compare it with. I brought a few of Hank’s handwritten letters with me and we compared the document against actual samples. Another verification came through Merton M. who also is familiar with Hank’s writing (both style and actual handwriting). To my knowledge, Merton and I are probably two of the very few people around who actually could verify Hank’s handwriting. Neither Nell Wing nor Frank M. had samples of Hank’s handwriting to compare it to when I brought copies of the document to them. While some may argue semantics, what I wrote was that “Hanks ideas” was his outline FOR the book and not an outline OF the book. Hank’s notations were part of the discussion stages not only for the writing of the book but for the promotion of the book as well. The book was not yet written at that time and the first chapter was in the dictation stage. They were also discussing the demographics of what type of persons the stories would represent. Not included with Hank’s proposal published on-line was another document outlining prospective authors. These authors were not listed by name but by the listing of whether or not they were low bottom or high bottom, whether or not they had slipped, their occupation, geographic location, etc. Not published on the net but included with the document was also a list of occupations of prospective authors for the story section. There were 25 occupations numbered and listed. Some had a check next to the name. I’m not sure what the check signified but I will not where they appeared with an * (The first two are pretty obvious): 1. Broker * 2. Surgeon 3. Politician 4. Executive * 5. Sales Manager * 6. Author * 7. Radio Man 8. Laborer * 9. Accountant * 10. Proprietor very large retail business * 11. Housewife * 12. Mechanic * 13. Judge * 14. Insurance * 15. Teacher 16. Upholsterer 17. Gardener 18. Salesman 19. Book Agent 20. Test car driver 21. Farmer 22. Laboratory technician 23. banker 24. athlete 25. Oil man John States that : “The first page is not an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some, but appears to be an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book.” The first page is actually an outline of the proceeding pages. If it were merely a business plan to promote the book why then would it list: • Preface of the book • The Program • The aim of the book • What is an alcoholic • The medical chapter • In the book should be suggestions regarding hospitalization • Dr. Silkworth letters Page 2 states under “Why the Book,” that “The work has become so broad that full time assistance and direction is needed. This costs money (which has been offered by foundational funds) however the alcoholics believe it should come from within their own experience.” On page 3 under “Questions and Answers” it asks in part: • How do I know this will work with me? Why is this method better than any other religious method? (It is not – this is only a step toward a religious experience which should be carried forward in Christian fellowship no matter what your church) • Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct up to these highest standards? • What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual relapse? Under Suggestions for Chapter 1 on page 5 it calls for “A History of the work – Possibly this could be carried on the first two pages of the book. This history should establish proof of success of the work and carry ‘hope’ to everyone that reads that much. The opening of the book should arouse the emotion of hope.” This does not sound like a sales promotion but rather a suggestion relating to the actual writing and outline for the book. This document relates not only to the sales and promotion of the yet unwritten book, it addresses proposals for what Hank feels should be included and why these subjects should be included. There is no significance as to where in the document Bill wrote “Hanks ideas”. Bill wanted to identify whose ideas these were and the bottom of the page was open. Hank probably handed these pages to Bill and they discussed them. Bill wanted to file these with materials relating to the writing of the book as the book was being written and wrote “Hanks ideas” as a means of identification of whose ideas the were. Bill did not hand Hank a blank piece of paper with the title Hank’s Ideas and ask Hank to write an essay. Hank and Bill were partners in the work and the fact that equal partners do not need to quibble about whether or not Bill’s notation came BEFORE or AFTER the “purported” outline of suggested ideas for the book and promotion of the book. Taking the document in its entirety, it is in no way just a sales promotion prospectus or “Business Plan.” Given the fact that Bill and Hank were partners in the writing of the book, they bounced ideas off each other in that very small office on the 6h floor at 17 William St in Newark. Also, to infer that Hank’s ideas did not make it into the book does not take into account what is addressed in the entire document. Maybe not specific subject titles on the cover page but in fact what made it into the book IS covered in this document. In conclusion – Verification that the document was Hank’s handwriting was made by comparing actual letters written by Hank against the original document by several individuals – Frank M., Nell Wing, myself, Merton M. and the then archivist at Stepping stones. The document came from Stepping Stones and were part of Bill’s materials relating to the writing of the book. Bill’s handwriting as to “Hanks ideas” was also verified by the aforementioned individuals. To infer that just because Bill annotated “Hanks ideas” AFTER the title page as anything other than as a means of identifying the document is also a stretch and to question the veracity of the document by words such as purported or putative implies fabrication. The FACT that the document was verified to be Hank’s handwriting by at least four individuals including the former archivist at GSO, the then current archivist at GSO, the then archivist at Stepping Stones and probably the only two other people in the world who had samples of Hank’s actual handwriting would probably stand up in court. The FACT that this document was part of Bill’s papers relating to the writing of the book and was housed in the archival repository at Bill and Lois’ home at Stepping Stones would verify its authenticity and also stand up in court. The FACT that if one looked at any author’s notes during the writing process of their books or papers one would usually not find these documents, ideas, scribbling, etc. dated or titled. I am also sure that if one looked at the handwritten story submissions also stored at Stepping Stones you would not find these dated or titled either. The actual titles for the stories in the book were not submitted by the authors of the stories but were decided upon AFTER the stories were submitted. I take umbrage to the inference of fabrication as well. I did not seek out this document. At the time it was discovered I was asked as one of probably only two or three people in the world familiar with Hank’s handwriting and in possession of actual letter written by Hank to verify the handwriting. As a matter of course I showed the document and samples of Hank’s handwriting to several other “experts” in AA documents to verify my findings. Mitchell K. --- johnlawlee wrote: > Although styled as "Hanks [sic] letter [sic]", the > twelve pages of > lined tablet appear to be handwritten notes from > two, or possibly > three, different persons. The pages are undated and > untitled. The > handwriting saying "Hanks ideas" is most likely Bill > Wilson's > inscription, but does anyone have facts to > authenticate that any of > the writing on those twelve pages is Hank > Parkhurst's? It is > significant that the notation "Hanks ideas" come > AFTER the purported > outline,not before; consequently, Hank's ideas would > be the material > coming after the putative outline. The first page > is not > an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some, > but appears to be > an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book. > In any case, few > if any of those ideas made their way into the Big > Book. It seems > quite a stretch to claim that the first page is an > outline of what > became the Big Book. While "Hanks ideas" didn't make > it into the > manuscript or the First Printing, they DID become > the incubator for > the Spiritual Experience Appendix in the Second > Printing [and > subsequent printings/editions]. > john lee --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4297. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2007 12:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia". According to the account by Jung, the man had an ordinay neurosis couple with a formidable mother complex. "He came from a rich and respected family, had a likeable wife and no cares-externally speaking. Only he drank too much." The mother owned a large company and the son occupied a leading position in it. After a brief treatment he stopped drinking but as soon a she wa sunder the mothers influence again, he took to the bottle. Jung approached the mother during her next visit to Switzerland and convinced her to let the son go from his position otherwise he would die from alcoholism. The patient went on to forge a successful career and overcame his alcoholism. Anyone any idea who this guy was? All of this occured around 1909. He makes no further mention in this book of treating other alcoholics. I find it interesting that by the time he came to treat Rowland H he was no longer treating alcoholism as being a manifestation of a neurosis. Fiona [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4298. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Jung From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2007 1:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The following is extracted from a letter by Michael Bruwer, MD, in the magazine "Parabola", Vol XII, No 4, November 1987: 'Jung's position on alcoholism and the recovery from it did not spring solely from his own mind and his discoveries about the religious nature of the psyche. Jung trained at the Burgholzli Asylum in Zurich. Its former director August Forel turned it over to his student Eugen Bleuler, who was Jung's teacher. When Forel first took over running the asylum he was very humbled by his terrible results from treating alcoholics, which he did by trying to enjoin them to a pattern of moderate drinking (wine was still part of the regimen for staff and patients). Forel was then strongly influenced by his local shoemaker Jacob Bosshardt, a member of the local society of the Blue Cross, a Methodist abstainers' group. At Forel's invitation Bosshardt successfully treated a number of Forel's patients with abstinence. Forel was so impressed that he implemented the abstinence program coupled with aftercare for alcoholics at the Burgholzli. Forel became an abstainer himself. His staff followed his example, including Bleuler and the young Dr Jung. Jung maintained his abstinence until continued harrassment and belittlement for it by Sigmund Freud induced him to cease abstaining. Forel is respected in Switzerland where he appears on the thousand-franc note and on a stamp. It is to him and his shoemaker Jacob Bosshardt that we must look for a major root of AA." >From: "Fiona Dodd" >Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jung >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:53:18 +0100 > >Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of >treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia". >According to the account by Jung, the man had an ordinay neurosis couple >with a formidable mother complex. "He came from a rich and respected >family, >had a likeable wife and no cares-externally speaking. Only he drank too >much." The mother owned a large company and the son occupied a leading >position in it. After a brief treatment he stopped drinking but as soon a >she wa sunder the mothers influence again, he took to the bottle. Jung >approached the mother during her next visit to Switzerland and convinced >her >to let the son go from his position otherwise he would die from alcoholism. >The patient went on to forge a successful career and overcame his >alcoholism. > >Anyone any idea who this guy was? All of this occured around 1909. He makes >no further mention in this book of treating other alcoholics. I find it >interesting that by the time he came to treat Rowland H he was no longer >treating alcoholism as being a manifestation of a neurosis. > >Fiona > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Solve the Conspiracy and win fantastic prizes. http://www.theconspiracygame.co.uk/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4299. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant May Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2007 9:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII May May 1919 - Bill returns home from service. (Dec 1934 to) May 1935 - Bill works with alcoholics, but fails to sober any of them. Lois reminds him HE is still sober. March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous. May 1939 - Lois W Home Replacement Fund started at Alcoholic Foundation. May 1949 - The first AA meetings in Scotland were held in Glasgow and Edinburgh. May 1950 - Nell Wing became Bill W's secretary. May 1951 - Al-Anon is founded by Lois W. and Anne B. May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. (sometimes reported as April 26, 1939) May 1, 1940 - Rollie H, Cleveland Indians, first anonymity break on national level. May 1, 1941 - The first Wisconsin AA meeting was held at a hotel in Milwaukee. May 2, 1941 - Jacksonville, FL newspaper reported the start of an AA group in Jacksonville. May 3, 1941 - The first AA group in New Orleans, Louisiana, was formed. (sometimes dated as May 2, 1943) May 3, 1941 - Democrat Chronicle in Rochester, NY, reported first annual AA dinner at Seneca hotel with 60 attending. May 4, 1940 - Sunday Star reported founding of first AA group in Washington, DC. May 6, 1939 - Clarence S of Cleveland told Dr. Bob, his sponsor, he would not be back to Oxford Group meetings in Akron and would start an "AA" meeting in Cleveland. May 6, 1946 - The long form of the "Twelve Traditions" was published in the AA Grapevine. May 8, 1943 - Akron AA Group celebrates 8th anniversary with 500 present and sober. May 8, 1971 - Bill W buried in private ceremony, East Dorset, Vermont. May 10, 1939 - Clarence S announced to the Akron Oxford Group members that the Cleveland members were starting a meeting in Cleveland and calling it Alcoholics Anonymous. May 11, 1935 - Bill W made calls from the Mayflower Hotel and was referred to Dr. Bob. May 11, 1939 - first group to officially call itself Alcoholics Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland. (some sources say the 18th) May 12, 1935 @ 5 pm - Bill W met Doctor Bob at the home of Henrietta Seiberling. May 15, 1961 - Bill W's mother, Dr Emily Strobell, died. May 16, 1941 - Ruth Hock finds that Joe W. (or V.), credited with coming up with the name Alcoholics Anonymous, has a "wet brain". May 17, 1942 - The Dayton Journal Herald published pictures of AA members wearing masks to protect their anonymity. May 17, 1942 - New Haven, Conn paper has article on AA. Picture shows faces of members sitting in a circle. May 18, 1950 - Dr. Bob tells Bill "I reckon we ought to be buried like other folks" after hearing that local AA's want a huge memorial. May 19, 2000 - Dr. Paul O., Big Book story "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" (renamed "Acceptance Was the Answer" in the 4th edition) died at the age of 83. May 28, 1974 - The first World Service Meeting of AA outside North America was held in London. May 29, 1980 - "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was published. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4300. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2007 6:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Fiona Dodd" wrote: > > Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of > treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia". It was Medill McCormick. There is a connection, although distant, with Rowland Hazard. Two of Rowland's college friends were Robert McCormick, Medill's younger brother, and George Porter, Medill's close friend. During the time Rowland's cousin Leonard was in the process of persuading him to go to Zurich, Leonard happened to run into George Porter-- apparently it was truly a coincidence. Porter was devoted to Jung, so Leonard asked him to talk to Rowland. Medill did give up alcohol, although not necessarily immediately after his analysis. He left the family business (The Chicago Tribune) and entered politics, rising to United States Senator from Illinois. The account Jung gives of how he handled Medill's mother may not be precisely correct, as it conflicts with some other information available about the situation. Medill McCormick died of a barbiturate overdose, apparently intentional, in February 1925. George Porter died exactly two years later, a suicide by gunshot. Rowland Hazard lost touch with Robert McCormick (later Tribune editor, not very friendly guy) some time after 1910. I'm not sure if we really know what Jung's therapeutic approach was to Rowland, or how much it had in common with his approach to Medill. Eighteen years is a long time, but there was nevertheless a certain continuity to Jung's thought. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4301. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Big Book "Outline" From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2007 7:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John Lee, The "alleged" samples of Hank's handwriting are in the form of letters to Clarence Snyder from Hank Parkhurst. Clarence and Hank were brother's-in-law and Clarence at one time worked for Hank as a salesperson. These "alleged" letters were in their original envelopes as well for the most part. I cannot publish these "alleged" samples on the net because like most of the collection I used for research, they are at Brown University for preservation and availability for future researchers. Some of the reasons the collection went to Brown was that when I first started my research I had excellent access to the archives at GSO. Nell allowed me to view, take notes and study most of the holdings at GSO. Frank M. also allowed me pretty much unfettered access until the Trustees Archives Committee tied his hands. When I made written request to view materials relating to a particular time frame or subject matter the Archives Committee told Frank that I had to be specific as to exactly what I was looking for. I asked Frank for a list of holdings so that I could comply with their requirement. Frank told me that the committee would not release such a list and that in fact, I had to somehow know exactly what I was looking for so that I could request viewing it.As I had no idea what their holdings consisted of I could make no such request. Frank apologized and said that his hands were tied and he couldn't help me. I had read in some of Clarence's correspondence that he gave several boxes of archival materials to the AA club in Midland Texas. I found out who to contact in Midland and called requesting information as to what they had. I was told that Frank M. had come to Midland and convinced them that he should take their holdings back to NY and have them housed at the GSO Archives. He promised that they would receive copies of the materials in exchange. My contact stated he was awaiting the copies and he would be happy to share them with me. I waited and when I contacte the Midland group they told me that all they had received from Frank at GSO were several typed pages in an inventory stating what the piece of documentation was, the box and file number GSO held them in. They could not help me with copies of the material they no longer had. I asked for photocopies of the inventory and when I received them I wrote to GSO again and this time requested specific documents including their own box number and file names. Frank called me up soon after this request stating that the Archives Committee demanded where I got this information. I told him that I was aware of what had transpired in Midland and he again apologized and said that his hands were tied. I eventually got access to the materials. I can also remember bringing several dozen binders of documents to the GSO archives and Frank invited Nell to look at these as well. We spent an entire day looking at the collection and Frank constantly asked if he could borrow the documents, keep the documents or that I could donate the documents to GSO. He took a post-it pad and started placing these little yellow sticky things on dozens of mylar covers to the documents. I asked him what these were for and he said that the documents he noted were the ones he wanted. It was my turn to apologize and stated that my hands were tied. During my research I spoke with several long-term members who had donated materials to the archives at GSO. They wrote letters granting me access to these materials they donated. When I asked Frank and the Archives Committee to look at these documents they told me that access to them was denied despite these members who had donated them agreeing for me to look. Some of these long-term members even agreed to come to the archives in NY to back up their request. Some had even said that if I could not look at the documents they were going to take them back. The Archives Committee through Frank told us that the materials were now the property of GSO and they would determine who would look at them and when and refused to return them to the members who had donated them. I had also asked for several documents I already had copies of and was told that these documents didn't exist. I brought the documents to Frank and showed them to him and he wanted to make copies to show the committee. I smiled and apologized and said I couldn't make copies because my hands were tied. I believe that according to GSO these documents still do not exist. Pretty much the only documents I still hold are several letters from Henrietta Seiberling to Clarence and a few dozen pages of color copies from original source documents relating to the Orthodox Group, The movement to decentralize the offices in NY and return control of AA back to the membership and the groups, the incorporation papers, by-laws and other materials relating to the AA Grapevine. This also includes the statements of stck transfers from the original owners of the stock to the corporation. Much of this material as they relate to my book or what I deem important to the book will be published in the second edition of said book. I have not decided what to do with these materials at this time after the re-write is published. These "alleged" original documents I believe are important and should be published so that everyone should have access to them. As far as access.... Anyone who ever asked to look at my collection was granted full access. Many members of AAHL were given full and unfettered access in an effort to do their own research. I did not nor do I believe that anything relating to the history of AA should be locked up and hidden from the Fellowship. I believe in preserving our history FOR the Fellowship and not hiding it FROM the Fellowship. I do not believe our archivists and historians should be security guards but rather preservers of our history and people relating the story as it was practicing rigorous honesty. Repositories should not be vaults. Just my "alleged" opinion > Mitchell, > I never claimed that the twelve page document was > false or forged. The terms "putative" and > "purported" refer to your conclusion that the first > page was an "outline" of the Big Book. It was no > such thing. Please review your own How It Worked > book where you make that claim repeatedly on pages > 96, 98 and 102.[eg, "Hank wrote, in his outline for > the book, p. 102"]. > "Hanks ideas" did not make it into the Big Book. > There is no evidence, direct or circumstantial, that > the purported outline was even circulated to anyone > other than Bill or Hank, let alone becoming the > "guidelines for the writing efforts of AA's > founders,who supplied their manuscripts (sic)", as > claimed in your book at page 98. The ideas in those > twelve pages did not make it into the big book, at > least until the 1941 Second Printing when Hank's > ideas about spiritual experience were included in > the Spiritual Experience Appendix. It would be > helpful if you posted the alleged samples of Hank's > writings on the Internet, so impartial parties could > compare those writings with the purported "outline". > > love+service, > john lee > vist@yahoo.com> wrote: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4302. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant May Dates in A.A. History From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2007 6:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > May 11, 1939 - first group to officially call itself > Alcoholics Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland. (some sources say the 18th) Not sure which sources say the 18th but according to the history of the Cleveland Groups as compiled by Norm E., the Recording Statistician of the Cleveland Central Office the date remains the 11th. What Norm did as requested by the Central Committee was to develop a form for each group to fill out. This form included the original name of the group, the original address, the founding members of the group, the founding date of the group, which group the new group formed out of and which members left the original group to form the new group. It also listed the number of members at the first meeting and number of members at certain intervals.There were a few other demographic questions to fill in and room for comments. The group Sec'y. filled out the form and in the case of the G. Group, Abby G. filled out the form and signed it. The forms were sent out on June 18, 1942 and the G. Group form was dated June 24, 1942. It stated that "On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G. group. The location of the group was 2345 Stillman Road, Cleeland Heights, Cleveland, Ohio. The sponsors of the group were: Clarence Snyder, Al G, Geo. J McD., John D., Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J., and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group was Clarence Snyder. The form also stated that the first meeting of the G. group was May 11th. These forms were filled out for each of the groups in Cleveland formed up to June 1942. --- chesbayman56 wrote: > May > May 1919 - Bill returns home from service. > (Dec 1934 to) May 1935 - Bill works with alcoholics, > but fails to > sober any of them. Lois reminds him HE is still > sober. > March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book > Alcoholics Anonymous. > May 1939 - Lois W Home Replacement Fund started at > Alcoholic > Foundation. > May 1949 - The first AA meetings in Scotland were > held in Glasgow and > Edinburgh. > May 1950 - Nell Wing became Bill W's secretary. > May 1951 - Al-Anon is founded by Lois W. and Anne B. > May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. > (sometimes > reported as April 26, 1939) > May 1, 1940 - Rollie H, Cleveland Indians, first > anonymity break on > national level. > May 1, 1941 - The first Wisconsin AA meeting was > held at a hotel in > Milwaukee. > May 2, 1941 - Jacksonville, FL newspaper reported > the start of an AA > group in Jacksonville. > May 3, 1941 - The first AA group in New Orleans, > Louisiana, was > formed. (sometimes dated as May 2, 1943) > May 3, 1941 - Democrat Chronicle in Rochester, NY, > reported first > annual AA dinner at Seneca hotel with 60 attending. > May 4, 1940 - Sunday Star reported founding of first > AA group in > Washington, DC. > May 6, 1939 - Clarence S of Cleveland told Dr. Bob, > his sponsor, he > would not be back to Oxford Group meetings in Akron > and would start > an "AA" meeting in Cleveland. > May 6, 1946 - The long form of the "Twelve > Traditions" was published > in the AA Grapevine. > May 8, 1943 - Akron AA Group celebrates 8th > anniversary with 500 > present and sober. > May 8, 1971 - Bill W buried in private ceremony, > East Dorset, Vermont. > May 10, 1939 - Clarence S announced to the Akron > Oxford Group members > that the Cleveland members were starting a meeting > in Cleveland and > calling it Alcoholics Anonymous. > May 11, 1935 - Bill W made calls from the Mayflower > Hotel and was > referred to Dr. Bob. > May 11, 1939 - first group to officially call itself > Alcoholics > Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland. (some > sources say the > 18th) > May 12, 1935 @ 5 pm - Bill W met Doctor Bob at the > home of Henrietta > Seiberling. > May 15, 1961 - Bill W's mother, Dr Emily Strobell, > died. > May 16, 1941 - Ruth Hock finds that Joe W. (or V.), > credited with > coming up with the name Alcoholics Anonymous, has a > "wet brain". > May 17, 1942 - The Dayton Journal Herald published > pictures of AA > members wearing masks to protect their anonymity. > May 17, 1942 - New Haven, Conn paper has article on > AA. Picture shows > faces of members sitting in a circle. > May 18, 1950 - Dr. Bob tells Bill "I reckon we ought > to be buried > like other folks" after hearing that local AA's want > a huge memorial. > May 19, 2000 - Dr. Paul O., Big Book story "Doctor, > Alcoholic, > Addict" (renamed "Acceptance Was the Answer" in the > 4th edition) died > at the age of 83. > May 28, 1974 - The first World Service Meeting of AA > outside North > America was held in London. > May 29, 1980 - "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was > published. > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4303. . . . . . . . . . . . Page 43 of the Big Book From: Silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2007 12:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I received the following from Shannon, editor of the Anonymous Press web site. Can someone here shed a little more light on the correct spelling of Dr. Percy Poliak? Dr. Percy Polick? On page 43 of the Big Book is the reference: Many doctors and psychiatrists agree with our conclusions. One of these men, staff member of a world-renowned hospital... On your site at http://silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesp.html The Dr.'s name is shown as: "Percy Poliak" But.. I notice that at http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm it appears as Dr. Percy Polick Would you happen to know with certainty the proper spelling of this doctor's name? ================== I have his name spelled both ways in two places on silkworth.net and would love to have the correct spelling as well. Yours in service, Jim M, silkworth.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4304. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung''s patient Medill McCormick From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2007 10:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe this is Joseph Medill McCormick (1877-1925), first cousin of Eleanor Medill (Cissy) Patterson (1884-1948), whose daughter was for some years the longest sober woman in AA. Her story is in the Third Edition and therefore in EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH, AND HOPE. Her diary (and some fragments of conversation?) were used, I believe, by the Rev. Sally Brown in her book on Marty M. My point is that there seems to have been alcoholism in the Medill family and from there in the McCormick and Patterson families -- and that one member at least found sobriety in AA, even if one didn't find it with Dr. Jung. - - - - Message 4297 from "Fiona Dodd" (fionadodd at eircom.net) Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia". According to the account by Jung, the man had an ordinay neurosis coupled with a formidable mother complex. "He came from a rich and respected family, had a likeable wife and no cares -- externally speaking. Only he drank too much." The mother owned a large company and the son occupied a leading position in it. After a brief treatment he stopped drinking but as soon a she was under the mother's influence again, he took to the bottle. Jung approached the mother during her next visit to Switzerland and convinced her to let the son go from his position otherwise he would die from alcoholism. The patient went on to forge a successful career and overcame his alcoholism. Anyone any idea who this guy was? All of this occured around 1909. He makes no further mention in this book of treating other alcoholics. I find it interesting that by the time he came to treat Rowland H he was no longer treating alcoholism as being a manifestation of a neurosis. Fiona - - - - Message 4300 from "corafinch" (corafinch at yahoo.com) It was Medill McCormick. There is a connection, although distant, with Rowland Hazard. Two of Rowland's college friends were Robert McCormick, Medill's younger brother, and George Porter, Medill's close friend. During the time Rowland's cousin Leonard was in the process of persuading him to go to Zurich, Leonard happened to run into George Porter -- apparently it was truly a coincidence. Porter was devoted to Jung, so Leonard asked him to talk to Rowland. Medill did give up alcohol, although not necessarily immediately after his analysis. He left the family business (The Chicago Tribune) and entered politics, rising to United States Senator from Illinois. The account Jung gives of how he handled Medill's mother may not be precisely correct, as it conflicts with some other information available about the situation. Medill McCormick died of a barbiturate overdose, apparently intentional, in February 1925. George Porter died exactly two years later, a suicide by gunshot. Rowland Hazard lost touch with Robert McCormick (later Tribune editor, not very friendly guy) some time after 1910. I'm not sure if we really know what Jung's therapeutic approach was to Rowland, or how much it had in common with his approach to Medill. Eighteen years is a long time, but there was nevertheless a certain continuity to Jung's thought. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4305. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 43 of Big Book: Dr. Poliak From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2007 10:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Percy Perry Poliak was born to Israel and Pauline Qviat Poliak in Las Animas CO June 30 1905 (sometimes given as 1906), married Mary Patricia Conley in California April 7 1972 and died there (in San Francisco) on February 10 1982. The name is correctly POLIAK. He practiced both at Bellevue and in SF. He was in NYC in 1937 I believe and in SF by 1940. _________________________________ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Silkworthdotnet" wrote: > > I received the following from Shannon, editor of the Anonymous Press web site. Can someone here shed a little more light on the correct spelling of Dr. Percy Poliak? Dr. Percy Polick? > > > On page 43 of the Big Book is the reference: > Many doctors and psychiatrists agree with our conclusions. One of > these men, staff member of a world-renowned hospital... > > On your site at > http://silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesp.html > > The Dr.'s name is shown as: "Percy Poliak" > > But.. I notice that at > http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm > it appears as Dr. Percy Polick > > Would you happen to know with certainty the proper spelling of this doctor's name? > > ================== > > I have his name spelled both ways in two places on silkworth.net and would love to have the correct spelling as well. > > Yours in service, > Jim M, > silkworth.net > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4306. . . . . . . . . . . . Death of Charlie M., Tennessee archivist From: wiknwillow@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2007 11:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charles Miner passed away after coming home from a District Meeting, he had a massive heart attack, he had never been diagnosed with heart trouble, he was diabetic. He passed away Sunday April 22, 2007. His funeral was held in 3 places in the state, one in Jamestown, where his mother and sister and where he himself resided. Another in Chattanooga where his sons and a daughter lived, and one in Memphis where he lived for quite some time. I feel that the people in the Archives that knew Charlie should know that he has passed. Thank you so much, Love and .... Blessings, Kathy Kelly-Hund DCM District 6, Area 64, Tennessee - - - - The Area 64 Tennessee Archives: http://www.area64tnarchives.org/ Photos of the 6th National Archives Workshop (Louisville, Kentucky / Clarksville, Indiana) which the Tennessee Archives Committee helped plan. http://area64tnarchives.org/6tharchivesworkshop.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4307. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s patient Medill McCormick and Felicia Magruder From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2007 3:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I interviewed Felicia Magruder (Cissy Patterson's daughter) back in 1981, when I was working on "Pass It On." She was a close friend of Marty Mann and also one of the early founders of The Grapevine. She suffered considerably from depression but really hung in there as a solid, steady AA member. Mel Barger Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: jlobdell54 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 10:09 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jung's patient Medill McCormick I believe this is Joseph Medill McCormick (1877-1925), first cousin of Eleanor Medill (Cissy) Patterson (1884-1948), whose daughter was for some years the longest sober woman in AA. Her story is in the Third Edition and therefore in EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH, AND HOPE. Her diary (and some fragments of conversation?) were used, I believe, by the Rev. Sally Brown in her book on Marty M. My point is that there seems to have been alcoholism in the Medill family and from there in the McCormick and Patterson families -- and that one member at least found sobriety in AA, even if one didn't find it with Dr. Jung. - - - - Message 4297 from "Fiona Dodd" (fionadodd at eircom.net) Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia". According to the account by Jung, the man had an ordinay neurosis coupled with a formidable mother complex. "He came from a rich and respected family, had a likeable wife and no cares -- externally speaking. Only he drank too much." The mother owned a large company and the son occupied a leading position in it. After a brief treatment he stopped drinking but as soon a she was under the mother's influence again, he took to the bottle. Jung approached the mother during her next visit to Switzerland and convinced her to let the son go from his position otherwise he would die from alcoholism. The patient went on to forge a successful career and overcame his alcoholism. Anyone any idea who this guy was? All of this occured around 1909. He makes no further mention in this book of treating other alcoholics. I find it interesting that by the time he came to treat Rowland H he was no longer treating alcoholism as being a manifestation of a neurosis. Fiona - - - - Message 4300 from "corafinch" (corafinch at yahoo.com) It was Medill McCormick. There is a connection, although distant, with Rowland Hazard. Two of Rowland's college friends were Robert McCormick, Medill's younger brother, and George Porter, Medill's close friend. During the time Rowland's cousin Leonard was in the process of persuading him to go to Zurich, Leonard happened to run into George Porter -- apparently it was truly a coincidence. Porter was devoted to Jung, so Leonard asked him to talk to Rowland. Medill did give up alcohol, although not necessarily immediately after his analysis. He left the family business (The Chicago Tribune) and entered politics, rising to United States Senator from Illinois. The account Jung gives of how he handled Medill's mother may not be precisely correct, as it conflicts with some other information available about the situation. Medill McCormick died of a barbiturate overdose, apparently intentional, in February 1925. George Porter died exactly two years later, a suicide by gunshot. Rowland Hazard lost touch with Robert McCormick (later Tribune editor, not very friendly guy) some time after 1910. I'm not sure if we really know what Jung's therapeutic approach was to Rowland, or how much it had in common with his approach to Medill. Eighteen years is a long time, but there was nevertheless a certain continuity to Jung's thought. Cora [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4308. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jung''s patient Medill McCormick From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2007 6:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you, Jared, for enlarging a little on Medill McCormick. And thank AAHistoryLovers for all their detective work. Dave and I did not know that Medill was an alcoholic. This is part of the fun of writing a biographical history as Dave and I did with Marty Mann - subsequent researchers interested in other aspects of the story will enhance and enlarge it. To keep the record clear, I am the coauthor with my husband, David R. Brown, of Marty's biography. It's thanks to him that so much research went into the book. He carried by far the bulk of that load. I just wrote what he was finding. Unfortunately, both Ernie Kurtz and Bill White strongly seconded his opinion, so I had to buckle down and stop looking for the easier, softer way. Now I'm very glad I did. Numbers of PhD students and others have been able to build on our material and resources. Here's a little cautionary footnote for researchers. Dave and I were in Chicago, whence Marty came, interviewing various folks. And because Dave is addicted to libraries, we dropped in at Chicago's main library to see what we could find. Lo and behold, there was a whole room dedicated to the McCormicks! We knew of Felicia Gizycka's importance in Marty and Priscilla's life, so we solicited the help of the room's curator in finding out more about her. He directed us to several books. In one of them was a family tree. Sure enough, there was Felicia on the proper branch. But to our huge disappointment, she was listed as having died in 1985. That was the most recent reference to her, so we sadly crossed Felicia off our list. One more person we were too late for. Somewhere along the way, we learned that Felicia's daughter, Ellen, had married into a prominent Washington DC legal family, the Arnolds. It occurred to us that perhaps, if we could locate her, Ellen could tell us something about Marty or at least about Felicia. Dave and I had lived in the Washington area for a couple of years in the late 1970s and I vaguely remembered the name Arnold as a firm that was sometimes in the news. I'm a lazy researcher, but I'm afflicted with an incurable curiosity about people. So on a whim I dialed DC Informa- tion, and asked hesitantly if there was a legal firm listed with the name Arnold in it. "Oh, yes," she immediately replied, "it's Arnold and Porter. Here's the number." Next step: call, get the switchboard, be connected to Arnold's office. His executive assistant answers, and immediately responds with great courtesy and enthusiasm to my inquiry about Ellen Arnold. However, she doesn't have a contact number or address for Ellen. But she's delighted to pass on the names, phone n umbers, and addresses of each of Ellen's sons in Wyoming. I'm bowled over. Hoping one of the sons could tell us about their grandmother Felicia, or how to reach their mother Ellen, I picked one at random and phoned him, Joe Arnold in Laramie. What a gift! I told him I was very sorry I was too late to interview his grandmother. He replied, "Would you like to speak with her?" !!!!!!!! When I finally picked myself up off the floor, he told me Felicia was actually alive and living in a retirement home in Laramie. Her grandsons adored her, and when she became too frail to live alone in Connecticut, they had moved her to Wyoming. She was now very frail, and noticeably failing. If I wanted to see her, I should probably come right away, and even then he couldn't promise she'd be at all responsive to anyone outside the immediate family. I was on a plane the next morning. And that's how we found out about Felicia's remarkable journals and were given unlimited access to them. Joe was right about Felicia's inability to communicate, too. A few months later she died. It was an invaluable lesson in not believing everything you read, and why Dave went to such great lengths to check and double-check everything we could. This double-checking, and insistence on accuracy, is one of AAHistoryLovers most wonderful contributions to our history. Thank God for Nancy Olson, who got this project going, and for all of you who continue her vision. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ coauthor with David R. Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 www.sallyanddavidbrown.com Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4309. . . . . . . . . . . . "group conscience" From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2007 5:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Oxford Group "checked guidance." This seems to be the proximate source for the AA concept of "group conscience"? Might anyone know the exact, most proximate source of AA usage of the term, "group conscience"? ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4310. . . . . . . . . . . . Mc Cormick From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2007 3:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In The Rev Sally Brown's autobiography of Marty Mann, it's mentioned that there was an Austin Mc Cormick of the Osborne Association involved in the planning group Marty estab- lished prior to setting up the National Council on Alcoholism. Is or rather was he one of the Medill/Mc Cormick/Patterson clan? Fiona IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4311. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "group conscience" From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2007 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernie: Just a wild, off-the-top guess, but I have tended to think the "most proximate" cause of the group conscience might have been the Vermont Town Meeting. I grew up in N.E., but with a Catholic background. However, everybody in my time in NE respected the idea that a "town meeting" would be careful not to shove something down anybody's throat just because a plurality of votes could be gotten for it. There had to be an harmonious consensus, after discussion, or the thing would be tabled until another day. V. best, Tom White - - - - On May 3, 2007, at 4:12 PM, Ernest Kurtz wrote: > The Oxford Group "checked guidance." This > seems to be the proximate source for the AA > concept of "group conscience"? > > Might anyone know the exact, most proximate > source of AA usage of the term, "group > conscience"? > > ernie kurtz > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4312. . . . . . . . . . . . Photographs of Richard Peabody or Courtenay Baylor? From: Joseph Trevaskis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2007 7:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all, I have been doing research with some others on obtaining photographs of people who were involved in pre-AA. Does anyone have a copy of a photo of Richard Peabody, Courtenay Baylor or anyone related? How can people obtain copies? Thanks ever, In Love and service, Joe T IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4313. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mc Cormick From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2007 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Fiona, I met Austin McCormick in 1963-1964 when both of us attended the Grapevine editorial board meetings in New York. He was widely respected for his work in prison reform. I recall, for example, that he was called in as a consultant when inmates at Jackson Prison (in southern Michigan) rioted in 1952. (But Dr. Leonard Strong, Bill W.'s brother-in-law, thought Austin was too soft on inmates and wanted to coddle them!) I doubt that Austin was related to the folks you mentioned. It does appear that Ireland did a good job of exporting many of its McCormicks to the U.S.; here in Toledo, for example, we have more than sixty listed. Then there are also MacCormacks and McCormacks, though some of these may be Scottish. There was also a great Irish tenor named John McCormack, but I'm sorry to say that he succumbed to our affliction. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4314. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "group conscience" From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2007 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Lee, Arthur Sheehan, George Cleveland, and Glenn Chesnut From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) I agree with Tom White that the likely genesis of "group conscience" is the New England Town meetings of the co-founders' childhoods. We should remember that Bob and Bill grew up with the New England Primer, in an era where every New England schoolchild memorized the Primer. Bill Wilson wrote often about the "genuine democracy" of the Fellowship, which was certainly displayed in the town meetings of Bill's Vermont village upbringing. The Farmers' Almanac was another likely source of many ideas perpetuated by Bill Wilson, such as the slogans. I believe that the Primer was the inspiration for the "three pertinent ideas" found on page 60 of the BIg Book. The New England Primer speaks of the "Three Choice Sentences". While worded quite differently than the Three Pertinent Ideas, the Choice Sentences are similar in compactness and style. They talk about "praying", human "weakness", and "think[ing] before God." I don't see any connection between the Oxford Group practice of "group guidance" and "group conscience". Bill and Lois Wilson disliked the Oxford Group practice of group guidance. Their detestation of that practice is a major reason for their leaving the Oxford Group, as Ernie Kurtz himself has pointed out in his splendid collection of essays. The Oxford Group was a "First Century Christian Fellowship" which followed the Acts of Apostles and Epistle to St. James , books of the New Testament which called for public confession. AA jettisoned the public confession of the First Century Christians, and substituted the private confession of Fifth Century Christians, which called for private confession with a soul-friend ["anamchara"]. In a similar vein, AA ditched the "absolute honesty" embraced by the Oxford Group, and adopted the "rigorous honesty" of practicing the rigors of the Twelve Steps. john lee where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio - - - - From: "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Greetings fellows In AA Comes of Age (pg 102) the earliest personal experience that influenced the Traditions occurred when Bill W was 2 years sober. In December 1936, Charles B Towns offered Bill a lucrative job at his hospital as a lay alcoholism therapist. After years of a hand to mouth existence Bill wanted the job very much. The question was put to the NY group meeting in Bill’s home and they rejected it. Bill complied with their decision and later wrote “3 blows, well and truly struck, had fallen on the anvil of experience … The common welfare must come first … AA cannot have a class of professional therapists … and God, speaking in the group conscience, is to be our final authority. Clearly implied in these 3 embryo principles of tradition was a 4th: Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.” Cheers Arthur - - - - From: george cleveland (pauguspass at yahoo.com) Hmmm. Got to disagree with the Town Meeting analogy. I ran Town Meetings in my New Hampshire town for 28 years--more than half my life--and more often than not, there was never consensus on thorny issues. However, I am also a Quaker and Quaker business practice is all about consensus. You can find out more on the web and I believe it was discussed in this group a while back. Looking forward to more revelations. George Cleveland - - - - From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) It was not just Quaker business meetings which operated this way. Most of the radical wing of the Protestant Reformation believed that church business meetings should engage in quiet discussion until a consensus was reached, and avoid the kind of diviseness produced by 51% to 49% votes. This meant not just Quakers, but also Mennonites, Evangelical and United Brethren, Moravians, and so on. A large number of American Protestant groups of that time were affected to some degree by radical reformation principles. See for example some of Franklin H. Littell's books on the Mennonites and on the radical reformation in general ("The Anabaptist View of the Church," etc.). People in New England during the formative period had modeled the way they ran their town meetings (and the rules by which they governed many other parts of their lives) on principles and practices they had learned in church. Also, the Oxford Group conducted group guidance sessions, where everyone sat around prayerfully and jotted down their thoughts in notebooks, and then shared their jottings afterwards. See A. J. Russell and others for examples. If they were not in agreement, they would pray again, and make more jottings in their notebooks. The goal was always to come out with a consensus that everyone could agree was wise divine guidance. What Bill Wilson introduced was a little different. But fundamentally, it was not so much a new practice, as a new nomenclature. Instead of referring to God, he referred to the inner human conscience. Instead of talking about receiving divine guidance or about praying for the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or the illumination of the Inner Light, he described the practice as seeking a "group conscience" where all the members looked deeply within their own hearts and souls, and their own inner knowledge of right and wrong. In my understanding, this change in terminology is what Ernest Kurtz was actually asking about. And I can think of no examples, myself, of people using the phrase "group conscience" in that kind of sense prior to Bill W's usage of the term. It may have been Wilson's own coinage: a new term for describing an old practice. Glenn C. - - - - Original message from: Ernest Kurtz wrote: The Oxford Group "checked guidance." This seems to be the proximate source for the AA concept of "group conscience"? Might anyone know the exact, most proximate source of AA usage of the term, "group conscience"? ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4315. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "group conscience" From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2007 8:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Sally Brown and John Lee. - - - - From: "Sally Brown" (rev.sally at worldnet.att.net) I, too, agree that the New England town meeting was probably the strongest influence on Bill's and Bob's adoption of the group conscience for AA. Dave and I were lucky to live in a small New England town (Lincoln, MA, outside Boston) for many years, and participate in loads of wonderful town meetings in which the group conscience definitely prevailed even though the majority vote legally won. I'd like to suggest another possible influence, albeit minor, that just occurred to me, for which we have no documentation whatsoever. The League of Women Voters. Bill's mother, that feisty independent lady, might have joined after the League's formation in 1920. Maybe someone in AA knows. Finally, what about the Congregational Church? That was part of Bill's grandfather Wilson's family life, and that denomination's way of self-governing was the forerunner and model for the subsequent town meeting form of local governments. Shalom - Sally www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net - - - - From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) I agree that "group conscience" was likely Bill Wilson's [original] coinage of a practice followed in Anabaptist sects. The Anabaptists have the "rule of sitting down" where they meet and try to achieve a consensus expressing the Divine Will. I hesitated to post that speculation last week because I can't find any evidence that Bill Wilson was exposed to Quaker or Anabaptist practices. Bill was not much of a reader or scholar, but he had a good ear. He and Lois attended Bible studies given by Sam Shoemaker and Sam's assistants in the mid-1930s. Sam was technically Episcopalian, but he was theologically close to the Methodist Episcopal viewpoints of the Wesley brothers["act as if" was a major emphasis of John Wesley]. Sam was out of step with the direction of the Episcopal Church of his time, which reveled in social action and liturgy. Although a prominent scholar, author, preacher and missionary, Doctor Shoemaker was never elevated to bishop. My point is that the theology disseminated by Sam Shoemaker would not have included ideas consistent with a "group conscience". I used to attend Pittsburgh Experiment meetings, which were the version of Oxford Group brought to Pittsburgh by Shoemaker in the 1950s when Sam became Rector of Calvary Church of Pittsburgh. I just don't see any overlap between group guidance and group guidance. The group guidance of the Oxford Group was designed to help one of the members decide a course of action, it was never used to decide what the group itself was going to do. The references to the Bill Wilson's refusal of the Towns Hospital job were written in the mid-1940s; consequently, Bill's invention of the label "group conscience" would have necessarily occurred sometime prior to 1946. Bill was writing in 1946 about a job refusal that occurred in December 1936. His writings on the idea of a group conscience were not contemporaneous with the incident that supposedly provoked the idea. The Towns Hospital incident occurred ten years prior to its recordation. Much of the Twelve Traditions developed from Bill Wilson's correspondence with the fledgling groups. Perhaps there is some correspondence in GSO Archives which would pinpoint Bill's first use of the words "group conscience". Bill was fascinated with the number 12. He basically took seven or eight traditions and stretched them into twelve. He liked the number 12. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4316. . . . . . . . . . . . Karen Horney From: gcb900 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2007 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It seems I read of Bill W being interested in Karen Horney, and wonder if any of the History lovers could add any thing to his thoughts on her, or any information at all. __________________________ From the moderator: Karen Horney (1885-1952) was a major Neo- Freudian psychoanalyst. In 1937 she published the book "The Neurotic Personality of Our Time," which had wide popular readership. There was a strong influence of the Neo-Freudians on early AA, but it has seemed from my own reading that the Neo-Freudian psychiatrist Alfred Adler was more important than Karen Horney. Ernest M. Ligon's book Psychology of Christian Personality was on the old Akron recommended reading list for beginners in AA, and used Neo-Freudian psychology to interpret the Sermon on the Mount in very interesting fashion. Does anyone in the group know more about this? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4318. . . . . . . . . . . . History and Archives Gathering June 23, 2007 Lebanon PA From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2007 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Fourth History and Archives Gathering in Central Pennsylvania will be held Saturday June 23, 2007 at St Cecilia's Social Hall, 750 State Drive, Lebanon, Pennsylvania, same location as last year. Besides the kind of presentations we've had in 2003, 2004, and 2006, we're hoping to have a session at the beginning on the Messengers to Ebby (Rowland, Shep, Cebra). Inquiries can be directed to histandarch@comcast.net -- Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4319. . . . . . . . . . . . Victorious Living From: gbaa487 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2007 12:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was reading "A Feminine Victory" and saw where she said that she was reading the Bible and "Victorious Living." Was this one of the books that were suggested reading in early AA? ____________________________ From the moderator: "A Feminine Victory" in the 1st edition (page 217) was written by Florence Rankin. She first started in AA in March 1937. The passage you are talking about reads: "Things went very well for quite a while, then came a dull rainy day. I was alone. The weather and my self-pity began to cook up a nice dish of the blues for me. There was liquor in the house and I found myself suggesting to myself 'Just one drink will make me feel so much more cheerful.' Well, I got the Bible and 'Victorious Living' and sitting down in full view of the bottle of whiskey, I commenced to read. I also prayed .... and in half an hour I got up and was absolutely free of the urge for a drink." This was probably the well known book by E. Stanley Jones, "Victorious Living" (1936). E. Stanley Jones (1884-1973) was a Methodist missionary and author, who was very close with Mahatma Gandhi. He also wrote "The Christ of the Indian Road" (1925) and "Abundant Living" (1942). -- Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4320. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration, W. Long Branch NJ, 7/21/07 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2007 7:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Area 44 History and Archives Committee cordially invites you to the Fourth Annual Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration! Saturday, July 21, 2007 at 3:30PM (rain date July 28, 2007) At his gravesite in Glenwood Cemetery, Route 71 (Monmouth Rd.), West Long Branch, New Jersey. Speakers: Barbara Silkworth (a family member) and Ed R. (nephew of Dr. Silkworth’s nurse Teddy) Dr. William Duncan Silkworth is the author of the two letters in “The Doctor’s Opinion” in the Big Book “Alcoholics Anonymous” and is known as a friend to millions of alcoholics worldwide. He detoxed Bill Wilson (AA’s co-founder) in N.Y.C. after Bill finally got sober in 1934. He gave deep understanding and great encouragement to an infant society in the days when a lack of understanding or a word of discouragement might easily have killed it. He freely risked his professional reputation to champion an unprecedented spiritual answer to the medical enigma and the human tragedy of alcoholism. Without his blessing, our faith might well have died in its birth. He was a luminous exception to the rule that only an alcoholic understands an alcoholic. He knew us better than we knew ourselves, better than we know each other. Many of us felt that his medical skill, great as that was, was not at all the full measure of his stature. Dr. Silkworth was something that it is difficult even to mention in these days. He was a saintly man. He stood in an unusual relationship to truth. He was able to see the truth of a man, when that truth was deeply hidden from the man himself and from everyone else. He was able to save lives that were otherwise beyond help of any kind. Such a man cannot really die. We wish to honor this man, a gentle doctor with white hair and china blue eyes. Dr. Silkworth lived on Chelsea Avenue in Long Branch, New Jersey, attended Long Branch High School where he has been inducted in that school’s Hall of Fame, graduated from Princeton University, and lived for a while in Little Silver NJ. He was born on July 22, 1873 and died on March 22, 1951. PLEASE BE SURE TO BRING A LAWN CHAIR OR SOMETHING TO SIT ON. If you have any questions please call Barefoot Bill (Area 44 History and Archives Chairperson) at 201-232-8749 (cell) or email archives@nnjaa.org Directions: Take the Garden State Parkway (north or south) to Exit 105 (Route 36), continue on Route 36 approximately 3 miles through 5 traffic lights (passing Monmouth Mall, two more shopping plazas, and several automobile dealerships). Watch for green road signs stating “Route 71 South, West Long Branch and Asbury Park” (this is just before the sixth light). Take this turnoff to the right, past Carriage Square and bear right onto Route 71 (Monmouth Road). Glenwood Cemetery appears very quickly on the left (the entrance is marked by two stone pillars and the name). Once inside the cemetery, bear left, go up the hill and make the first right (a hard right). The gravesite is near the first tree on the right. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4321. . . . . . . . . . . . Rocketed into the Fourth Dimension From: rxichard2nd . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2007 4:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings, Is there any information where Bill W. (or anyone other contributor) came up with the phrase ""rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence of which we have not even dreamed"? (BB, pg 25) After much research, I found many references to the phrase on AA- related sites, but no info on its origin in the Big Book. The 4th dimension was first mentioned in ancient Euclidean geometry, it dealt with spatial cubes, not with time as we associate it today. What I think Bill was more referring to was the space-time continuum in Einstein's theories of relativity. Bill was obviously a voracious reader and I'm certain he was familiar with Einstein's theories which were first published in 1915. Of course, much of Einstein's work stemmed from Newton's gravitational theories published centuries earlier. This probably led to my next find. The first reference I could find in popular literature that Bill may also have read is H.G. Wells' "The Time Traveler" from 1895, which also dealt with time travel and specifically mentions the 4th dimension. Although I have my own pet theories, I'm curious if there's any factual evidence how the phrase in the Big Book came about? Before I close, here's my personal version of my 4th dimension of existence - I have been blessed with the ability to lead two lives in one lifetime. Although my rocket ride into my second life was more like a slow boat, my sober life has truly been a time travel into a new life. Be well, my fellow time travelers. Rick B. Hagerstown, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4322. . . . . . . . . . . . Adler, Social Interest and AA From: rdg1649 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2007 6:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a recent post concerning Karen Horney, Alfred Adler and his influence on AA was mentioned by the moderator. I would be very interested in comments developing on this theme. Considering that the idea of 'social interest'--involvement in and commitment to the wider community was a key concept in Adler's definition of mental health it is not surprising that he would have influenced and perhaps been influenced by AA. Insights into this connection would be greatly appreciated. - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR Part of Alfred Adler's connection with AA: See the passage on Bill Wilson's mother, Dr. Emily Griffith Wilson, in Pass It On, page 290: "During a stay in Vienna, Dr. Emily studied under Alfred Adler, a former colleague of Freud's." After moving to San Diego, where Emily spent the latter part of her life, she "became a lecturer and practitioner in the Adlerian school of psychoanalysis." We can be guaranteed that Bill Wilson knew a little bit, at least, about Adler. The reason why Bill cited James and Jung by name so prominently (see Big Book pp. 26 and 28) was because they were the only major figures in the field of psychiatry and psychology during the 1930's (the only ones who had widespread name recognition) who said anything positive about spirituality and belief in God. That did not mean that they were the only people in psychology and psychiatry whom Bill W. and Dr. Bob had read, or by whom they had been affected. The old Akron reading list for AA beginners ( http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html ) asked the new alcoholics who checked into St. Thomas Hospital to read a book by Ernest M. Ligon on psychology and spirituality. Ligon was well known and highly regarded in American psychological circles during his day (although little known today). Nevertheless, his name did not carry the clout which you could get by citing James and Jung. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4323. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Karen Horney From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2007 8:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Ernest Kurtz and Steve D. From: Ernest Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) I am sorry: I cannot remember any name, but at least one early New York member was in therapy with an immediate disciple of Horney or perhaps with Horney herself. My remembered source is reading of such a reference in the earliest AA correspondence, not all of which was Bill W's. I do not know whether the current digitization of some of this material would allow the present archivist to search for such a reference. Not-God, p. 244, notes: " . . . consistently and indeed inevitably, given the nature of their "disease," anonymous alcoholics wrote to Wilson "Dear Bill" letters lamenting their inability to practice the A.A. program "perfectly." As consistently and inevitably, given the nature of his insight, the co-founder fired back tempering responses." The note to that paragraph reads (in part): ". . . Harry J. (Saginaw, Ml) to Dr. Karen Horney, copy sent to Wilson and in A.A. archives, undated, but internally datable to July or August 1953;" ernie kurtz - - - - From: STEVIE D. (stevied519@hotmail.com) Just some food for thought. Carl Jung (a Freud "dissident") also had a huge impact in the beginning. Indeed, I think his impact was far more noteworthy. Check out Wikipedia just for fun. Peace. Stephen IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4324. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rocketed into the Fourth Dimension From: elephant_7 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2007 11:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The phrase "rocketed into the Fourth Dimension" is a favorite of mine. The question of its origin and meaning interests me, too. The following quote is from V.C. Kitchen's "I Was a Pagan" (pgs 24-25, stepstudy.org version): "With this change — but not before — could I see the reason for my former failures. It was as if I had stepped all at once from the ordinary world of three dimensions into a fourth-dimensional sphere. "It is difficult to describe such matters to those who have not yet gained spiritual insight, just as it would be difficult to explain colors to a man who is color blind. Moral blindness is much the same thing, and it is a blindness which clears away only when you become sensitive to the light of the spiritual realm. "In ordinary terms, therefore, I can only say that I had been unable to see light because I stood in my own way. I had, as you may remember, suspected that there might be some supra-sensible kind of spiritual light, just as there were ultra-violet rays of sunlight and invisible beams of knowledge which flow into our minds. I now found that this was so and found, also as I suspected, that the coarseness of my own nature obscured this light to a degree which made me unable to "see" it." Kitchen was a member of the Oxford Group in New York. He ran around with Bill Wilson in the "Alcoholic Squadron" of the Group there. It is possible that Bill got this phrase from Kitchen, whose book was published in 1934, five years prior to the Big Book. It is also possible that Bill and Kitchen pulled this phrase from the same source, or that such language was common to the New York Oxford Group at that time. In any case, it is fairly clear from Kitchen's usage that the "fourth dimension" is probably not the same one discussed by physicists. They appropriate the term to describe the radical transformation of their perception that takes place when their lives are Changed in the Group. Kitchen also talks about a "supra-sensible" light of spiritual perception that one can see only when connected to this dimension. "Invisible beams of knowledge" that flow into his mind. He's clearly not talking about space-time. All the same, the language here is a big more than figurative. I don't think Kitchen means this as a metaphor (though I could be wrong). I think he really feels that this fourth dimension is a real spiritual dimension that really does beam knowledge and insight into our minds. (Frankly, I think its a pretty good explanation.) Bill's usage, in my opinion, seems to be more figurative. The use of "rocketed" is typical Bill. Grandiose, prone to exaggeration, intensely excited about sharing this stuff with other alcoholics. Hope that helps. James R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4325. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Adler, how about Harry Stack Sullivan and Dr. Earle Marsh? From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2007 8:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In this vein, is there any indication that the work of Harry Stack Sullivan, another psychiatrist who was around in this period, contributed in any way to the crystallizing of AA ideas? I know that Dr. Earle Marsh (Physician Heal Thyself) trained in psychiatry under Sullivan. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4326. . . . . . . . . . . . Obituary: Joseph Zuska, 93, first U.S. Navy alcoholism treatment From: Phil . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2007 7:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII LA Times obituary for Dr. Joseph Zuska who (with AA member Cmdr. Dick Jewell, ret'd) started the first officially sanctioned alcoholism treatment program for U.S. Navy personnel during the mid 1960's. - - - - AA History Lovers, Please find below article of the LA Times Obituary for Joe Zuska, MD, Navy Retired Captain who passed away recently. I am sure many in this group know someone who received treatment in the Navy Alcohol Treatment Program, including myself and those who are current or former members of the Navy's "Drydocks." My condolences to all affected by his passing. phill95 gratituder - - - - Joseph Zuska, 93 Navy doctor developed treatment for alcoholism By Jocelyn Y. Stewart, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer Obituaries May 24, 2007 Inside a rusted Quonset hut at the Long Beach Naval Station, Dr. Joseph J. Zuska operated a clandestine program, treating sailors for an illness that in the eyes of the Navy did not exist. It was the mid-1960s, a time when alcoholism and its accompanying behavior were treated as violations of Navy policy, punishable by time in the brig. Yet the atmosphere on base and at sea encouraged heavy drinking. The abiding image of the drunk sailor was a reality for many. After a conversation with a retired Navy commander who was also a recovering alcoholic, Zuska began treating the illness as a medical problem. His underground program, the first in the history of the armed forces, eventually earned national acclaim, providing a model for other branches of the military and private industry. Zuska died May 17 at Los Alamitos Medical Center of complications from kidney failure and other illnesses, his son, John Zuska, said. He was 93. "He's well-loved by thousands of alcoholics across the country whose lives he actually saved, including mine," said Charley B. who served in the Air Force and was treated by Zuska beginning in 1969. He asked that his full name not be used, following a tradition that honors the anonymity of Alcoholics Anonymous members. In the years after Zuska retired in 1970, the rehabilitation program placed many notables on the path to sobriety, including former First Lady Betty Ford; Billy Carter, brother of former President Carter; and Apollo 11 astronaut Buzz Aldrin. The program, which operated out of the Long Beach Naval Hospital on Terminal Island, included inpatient medical care, daily group therapy, psychological counseling, Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, lectures and movies on alcoholism. The highly effective treatment allowed patients to "return to work and saved the Navy money by salvaging people," said Dr. Ted Williams, director of addiction treatment services at St. Joseph Hospital in Orange, who headed the Navy program in the 1980s. Before the birth of the program, the prevailing belief was that nothing could be done for alcoholics. When doctors made the diagnosis, a sailor could be demoted or booted out of the Navy. The turnabout for Zuska began with a question. One day in 1965, retired Navy Cmdr. Dick Jewell walked into his office and asked: What are you doing about alcoholism in the Navy? "I had no answers," Zuska said in a 1997 Times article. "The Navy, including myself, had no real understanding of the disease process of alco- holism." But Jewell, new to the world of sobriety, was full of enthusiasm and the belief that alcoholism could be treated. Zuska, who was the senior medical officer at the Long Beach Naval Station and a captain, had the power, if not the authorization, to put that belief into practice. "That day they created what became the No. 1 system for treating alcoholics," said Dr. Joseph A. Pursch, who ran the program after Zuska retired. Though the program had not been approved by Navy officials, Zuska began holding weekly meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous in a conference room at the naval station, then moved to the Quonset hut when the number of participants grew. The doctor found an 80-bed barracks and turned it into an inpatient recovery facility. Word soon spread that lives were being changed, and higher-ups in the Navy found out. "The brass was alarmed for two reasons: Accord- ing to policy there were no alcoholics in the Navy at that time, hence there was no need for a treatment policy; and there were quite a few alcoholic admirals and generals on active duty in the Pentagon," Pursch wrote in a 1987 column for The Times. A commission was sent to investigate what was called an illegal activity, but it acknowledged that the Navy had alcoholics and that the treatment program Zuska had created was effective. In 1967 the Pentagon gave Zuska approval for the first official Alcohol Rehabilitation Center, and by 1971, 70% of 900 patient admissions showed "demonstrated improvement." In the 1980s the Navy's surgeon general sent doctors to Long Beach to learn from the program. The Navy eventually opened 33 rehabilitation centers around the world. By the early 1990s the Navy had shut down the hospital and later scaled back the program in favor of outpatient treatment. An increase in awareness about alcoholism and effective treatments in the military is attributed to Zuska. Zuska was born in Chicago on June 9, 1913, and earned his medical degree from the University of Illinois. He married Martha Josephine Parham in 1939, and the couple had two children. In addition to his son, of Oakland, Zuska is survived by daughter Sky St. Cloud of Culver City and granddaughter Sarah Zuska of Berkeley. During World War II, Zuska provided medical care to Marines during the Battle of Tarawa and at Saipan. In the Korean War, he was chief of surgery on a hospital ship attending to those wounded during the Inchon invasion. Decades of experience in the military informed his view of the causes of alcoholism. What he saw led him to reject the view widely held in the 1960s that alcoholism was rooted in moral weakness or caused by an emotional problem. Zuska recalled an officers club where he had to pay for coffee but wine was free. There were bar games such as the "pressure cooker," in which drinks were 10 cents each until someone left; then they were full price. People don't fall off the wagon, Zuska said in a 1976 Times article. "They're pushed off by society's insistence that they have a drink," he said. "Modern society doesn't relish the idea that some people can't drink safely." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4327. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Karen Horney From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2007 3:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII FYI - I wonder if there is too much search for the obscure and not enough for the overt? In the summer of 1944 Bill W began twice-a-week treatment with Dr Harry M Tiebout for debilit- ating episodes of depression. Some AA members were outraged and castigated Bill for “not working the program,” “secretly drinking” and “pill taking.” Bill endured the attacks in silence. Tiebout had a close association with AA since 1939 and his initial experiences with Marty Mann. Pass It On pgs 292-303 goes into Bill's episodes of depression fairly thoroughly along with the methods he used to deal with them. In 1945 Bill W started seeing psychotherapist, Dr Frances Weeks (a Jungian) once a week on Fridays. He continued to see her until 1949 for his episodes of depression (re Pass It On pgs 334-335). My personal take is that Dr Harry Tiebout would have had the major Psychiatric influence on Bill during the 1940s and 1950s. He and Bill reputedly maintained a substantial correspondence over the years. Also Tiebout's 1944 paper "Thera- peutic Mechanism of Alcoholics Anonymous" is informative in his statement "In conclusion, it is my belief that the therapeutic value of the Alcoholics Anonymous approach arises from its use of a religious or spiritual force to attack the fundamental narcissism of the alcoholic." Also, William James "the founding father of American psychology" had a substantial seminal influence on Bill W and early AA as well as evidenced by Bill's own account. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4328. . . . . . . . . . . . List of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2007 10:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Intergroups are a separate service structure that preceded the General Service structure. Some sell only conference approved items but most sell non conference approved items also. I recently came back from Akron and I bought pamphlets from Akron, Chicago, Cleveland as well as a Forward Movement pamphlet called "Prayers for Alcoholics" and "Emergency Rations" by Roy L. Smith (copyrighted by The Upper Room). They also sell copies of the original "can-openers" or pamphlets that were distrib- uted to members about the AA program from Akron, Cleveland and Chicago. We had these "can-openers" in Philadelphia too. For the original 100 members there was no conference and no Big Book. Only these pamphlets and the Bible (besides meetings and working with a sponsor) to keep one sober. Has anyone compiled a complete list of all the early can openers or pamphlets? Shakey Mike Gwirtz The Monkey is off my back but the Circus is still in town.... See ya in Owensville, MD, Elizabethtown, Pa. and Phoenix, AZ. ______________________________ From the moderator: See http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html , a letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at the New York A.A. headquarters (then called the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11, 1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis, said that there were at least 25 pamphlets of this sort already in existence by that point, and that the New York office saw good points in all of them, and had no objection to any AA group printing and selling this kind of material. "Dear Barry: . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the new Cleveland "Sponsorship" pamphlet and a host of others are all local projects. We do not actually approve or disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Foundation feels each Group is entitled to write up its own "can opener" and let it stand on its own merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy. But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some good points. I think it is up to each individual Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts them out. Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4329. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2007 2:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From tcumming: Though far from complete, this might get you started [something I worked on for a while a few years back. I think this version will give you links to old posts in our two groups - AAHistoryLovers and Buffs] One note about your original message: You said -- > For the original 100 members there was no > conference and no Big Book. Only these pamphlets > and the Bible (besides meetings and working > with a sponsor) to keep one sober. > most all of the "AA pamphlets" were published > after the Big Book. With 100 or less members in only 3 cities at most, it was just a lot easier to convey the message directly one-on-one than go to the the trouble and expense of even memographing a pamphlet. ----------------------------------------- EARLY PAMPHLETS ----------------------------------------- Mr. X and Alcoholics Anonymous, L- 226 - Mr. X and Alcoholics Anonymous(1939) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/226 - - - - AA (AKA The Houston Pamphlet). L- 381 - Possibly the 1st AA Pamphlet (1940) (I have a scan of the cover) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/381 - - - - Alcoholics Anonymous, An Interpretation of the 12 Steps (AKA Tablemate Guide or the Detroit Pamphlet). (I've got as a file, and also recent reprint from Detroit) http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr2.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr3.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html - - - - The Cleveland Four Absolutes Pamphlet (I have as a PDF file) - - - - Impressions of AA -- from the Chicago Group, by Judge John T. L- 174 - Chicago's Impressions of AA (1940's) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/174 - - - - Intro To AA pamphlet -- by the Philadelphia Group. L- 396 - Early 1940's Philadelphia "Intro To AA" Pamphlet (I have a scan of the cover) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/396 - - - - What About the Alcoholic Employee? -- Re-print of Chapter 10 from Big Book. (I have a scan of the cover) - - - - The Akron Manual (1941) L- 234 - The Akron Manual - 1940 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/234 L- 360 - The Akron Manual - 1940 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/360 L- 361 - The Akron Manual - 1940. Part 2 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/361 - - - - Guide to the Twelve Steps Second Reader For Alcoholics Anonymous Spiritual Milestones in AA -- all three by the King's School Group in Akron. (these should be available somewhere, somehow) - - - - AA Sponsorship... Its Opportunities and Its Responsibilities by Clarence S L- 192 - 1944 A.A. Sponsorship Pamphlet http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/192 L- 307 - 1944 AA Sponsorship Pamphlet (by Clarence Snyder) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/307 AA Tradition - How It Developed, by The Alcoholic Foundation, 1947. -articles from Grapevine - - - - About the Alcoholic Husband, by The Alcoholic Foundation, 1947. Reprint of Chaper 8, To Wives - - - - Medicine Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous by Works Publishing Inc 1949. reprint of papers/talks presented to the by Drs. Harry Tiebout, Foster Kennedy, Kirby Collier, and W.W. Bauer. Current version also has a talk by Bill W., made in May 1944. L-166 - Basic Concepts of Alcoholics Anonymous (NY State Journal of Medicine, Aug 44) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/166 (I have a scan of the cover) -- since this one is still currently being distributed by GSO, might be better not to use it - - - - The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous by William W., Co-founder, -- The American Journal of Psychiatry, Nov 1949. B-417 - Bill W's address to the American Psychiatric Asso - Pt 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/417 B-418 - Bill W's address to the American Psychiatric Asso - Pt 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/418 - - - - AA - God's Instrument (AKA Why We Were Chosen - which is actually an abreviated form of the whole) (before 1950) -- Chicago Central Office. L- 251 - Why we were chosen (Oct. 1943) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/251 L-269 - Source of "Why We Were Chosen" http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/269 - - - - High Road to Happiness (late 1940's early 1950's) distributed by the Brighter Side Group of Waterloo, Iowa. (I have as a HTM file & PDF) - - - - AA...A Uniquely American Phenomenon -- Feb 1951, Fortune magazine B-1090 - 1951 Fortune Magazine Article - (I have a scan of the pamphlet cover - also magazine cover) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/message/1090 - - - - The Alcoholic Wife - A Message To Husbands, 1954. - - - - Respecting Money by Bill W.(Co-Founder). from the Nov. 1957 Grapevine. (in Language of the Heart- I can type out) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4330. . . . . . . . . . . . Inside covers of 2d edition Big Books From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2007 11:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Are all the second editions covers black on the inside? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4331. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: bob gordon . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2007 3:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here's a link to a 1951 article by Sister Ignatia St. Thomas Hospital And A.A. Started A Movement Which Swept The Country By Sister M. Ignatia, C.S.A. St. Thomas Hospital, Akron, Ohio *http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2016* From the October 1951 issue of "Hospital Progress" (the official journal of the Catholic Hospital) Bob G IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4332. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Inside covers of 2d edition Big Books From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2007 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Inside dust cover is black but inside hardcover is white. Both editions I have. _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Wikelius Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 11:30 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Inside covers of 2d edition Big Books Are all the second editions covers black on the inside? _._,___ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4333. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2007 11:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One thing about the Chicago Group and its printing---in the winter of 1940 a reprint of a column in the Chicago Sun or Herald-American newspaper was used two ways: as a public relations (P.I.) resource and a carry-along (handout) for new members and their families. "All Things Considered" was written by the same gentleman who later wrote an "Acceptance" pamphlet that's still independently published and available, but right now I can't remember his name ... The column described attending a Tuesday night "Big Meeting" of the Chicago Group, and it dealt enthusiastically with AA recovery and the AA Fellowship. The Chicago Central Office AA published at least five pamphlets for newcomers ("can openers") before 1950; I'll try to get all the titles and first printing dates but all are from the mid-to-late 1940s: "The Devil and AA" "Out of the Fog" "AA-God's Instrument" "Impressions of AA" and a few others. All are printed today! Great thread! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4334. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: Jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 7:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 4 Akron Pamphlets are still produced and sold by the Akron Intergroup. - - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: But you should check the present versions against the early printings to see what changes have been made. For example, the Akron Intergroup still publishes what they claim is the original pamphlet called "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous." But they have removed the section at the end which gives the old Akron AA recommended reading list for newcomers, thus giving a very misleading impression about early Akron AA, and contributing to the misleading caricature of early Akron AA which appears in some contemporary AA literature and discussion. "The following literature," the original pamphlet said at the end, "has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous." Alcoholics Anonymous [the Big Book] The Holy Bible [but the only parts of the Bible mentioned in the rest of the pamphlet were the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91, so these were clearly seen as the most important parts of the Bible] The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4335. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: Bruce C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 11:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All Here is a list of some of the early AA pamphlets I have seen. All early can openers had a point. I have seen two "AA" pamphlets or booklets, both from Works Publishing: 1. - The Houston Press reprints of intro, an editorial, and 6 - articles published by The Houston Press, with a reprint of "A New Approach to Psychotherapy in Chronic Alcoholism", by Dr. Silkworth, from "The Journal - Lancet, MN. July, 1939, Vol. LIX, No. 7, page 312.(no copyright date, circa. 1940) 2. - AA pamphlet or booklet, 29 pages, Alcoholics Anonymous intro, Am I An Alcoholic?, The Doctor's Nightmare, The European Drinker, Women Suffer Too, Bill's Story, Medicine, Religion and Alcoholics Anonymous, The Twelve Steps, Our Friends Say, Book Review by Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick. copyright 1943. Other Works Publishing pamphlets or booklets: Medicine Looks at A.A. - 1946 A.A. Tradition - 1947 Sedatives - 1948 The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous - 1950 Pamphlets Booklets with "color covers", by the Alcoholic Foundation: A.A. for the Woman - 1952 Sedatives and the Alcoholic - 1952 The Alcoholic Employee - 1952 Young People and A.A. - 1953 The items stated earlier reprinted from Akron - Cleveland, Ohio, and Detroit, MI., and Chicago, IL. central offices. Bruce C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4336. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sullivan and Horney From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 8:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 4327, Arthur Sheehan wrote: > FYI - I wonder if there is too much search for > the obscure and not enough for the overt? Looking past Harry Tiebout and Frances Wickes to identify influences on the development of AA is hardly searching for the obscure. Tiebout had an inquiring and wide-ranging mind -- if he didn't, he would never have given a thought to that strange multilith document that landed on his desk in 1939, and the course of history might have been changed. I'm sure he was successful. He could just as well have rested on his laurels, earned his generous salary, allowed himself to feel superior to other people who didn't know as much as he did about treating alcoholics. Instead, he read the book and encouraged Marty Mann to give it a chance. He was willing to consider the validity of points of view differing from his own. Why assume that Harry Stack Sullivan, the premier social psychologist of the era, would have held no interest for him? And I'm sure Tiebout wasn't the only one in 1940s AA who was interested in studies of the psychology of groups. Here is one example, not intended as an answer to the general question about Sullivan's influence but possibly a contribution to an answer. An academic psychologist by the name of O. Hobart Maurer had published extensively in the area of learning theory beginning in the 1930s . Although he was not a therapist he was loyal to Freudian ideas and had been analyzed several times for his recurring depressions. During the second world war he worked (I believe for the CIA but possibly it was the defense department) in Washington, developing interviewing and training techniques for service personnel. Sullivan trained and mentored the other psychologists on the project. Over the next few years, Dr. Maurer had a complete change of heart, totally rejected Freudian theory, and developed a rather extreme type of group therapy which he called "Integrity Therapy." One of the influences leading to this change was Sullivan, although there were others -- including, strangely enough, a novelist who had been associated with Frank Buchman. Integrity Therapy had a brief period of intense popularity, during which it was instrumental in the development of the therapeutic-community approach to drug treat- ment. Hobart Maurer, by the way, originated the phrase "You are your secrets" which morphed into "You are as sick as your secrets" and is associated (by some people, at least) with AA. He had many friends and associates in AA besides his obvious connection to the rehab culture. I believe Ernie Kurtz, in one of the essays in "The Collected Ernie Kurtz", remarked on the importance of Harry Stack Sullivan to the philosophy of alcohol and drug rehab. I know many will reject this as unrelated to AA, but if AA is its members surely rehab personnel have been important. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4337. . . . . . . . . . . . YES, 2nd ed dust covers are black inside From: G Rohde . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 10:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 2nd edition Big Books, from G. Rohde, lookwhosdunn, and Bill Lash. - - - From: "G Rohde" (feelgoodcp at gmail.com) "Inside dust cover is black but inside hardcover is white." Same with all 2nd editions I have. Also I understand that the back of the paper dust cover is black so you can use it to make the book anonymous. - - - - From: "lookwhosdunn" (lookwhosdunn at yahoo.com) I have two 2nd editions and both inside dust covers are black. - - - - From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) I have two 2nd Editions & both dustjackets are black on the inside. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4338. . . . . . . . . . . . NO, some 2nd ed dust covers are NOT black inside From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2007 1:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 2nd edition Big Books, from CBBB164 and hartsell. "Are all the second editions covers black on the inside?" - - - - From: CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM) No. - - - - From: "hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) Don't think mine is. I recall writing names and numbers inside the cover. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4339. . . . . . . . . . . . Swedish ivy clippings from Dr Bob''s house? From: bonniesue98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 5:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a beautiful Swedish Ivy plant that I grew from a clipping I won at a Gratitude Dinner several years ago. Rumor has it that the clipping came from a plant which still grows today at Dr. Bob's home in Akron. I understand visitors can get clippings from this plant, and that it is the same plant that was alive when Dr. Bob and his wife were living there. Do you know anything about this? Your friend in recovery, Bonnie W. Melbourne, Florida - - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: This seems to be a different story from the one about the clippings from a Creeping Charlie Plant that was supposed to have been at Bill Wilson`s bedside while he was in the hospital in Miami in 1971. For that, see Message #2999. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4340. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: NO, some 2nd ed dust covers are NOT black inside From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2007 10:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII >"Are all the second editions covers black on >the inside?" Depends on what is meant by covers. If you mean the dust cover, more commonly referred to as dust jacket, yes, all the Second Edition's printings are black on the reverse of the normally facing out side. I lack original DJs for four of my Seconds, 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th printings. The facsimiles as well as the originals all have the black reverse. There is a statement on the back leaf, "If you wish to preserve complete personal anonymity when carrying this book, just turn this jacket inside out. It has been especially designed for your convenience." I wonder if the feedback from the rather garish First Edition dust jackets prompted this? If the inside of the board covers are being referred to, and I think these are called front/back pasted end papers, all of the Second Edition are bleached paper color. The first ten printings of the Third Edition have blue end papers, the earlier editions a lighter blue than the later. The reverses of all the DJs I have for Thirds are white. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4341. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? From: fogielchouki . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2007 12:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've heard a speaker not long ago saying that Rowland Hazard drank again before he died. chouki IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4342. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Swedish ivy / Creeping Charlie clippings From: Frederick . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2007 11:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Fred I., LS31101, and Glenn C. - - - - From (Fritz689 at adelphia.net) The Swedish Ivy Plant that is given away at various conferences and workshops is decended from the Swedish Ivy plant that was sent to Bill Wilson while he was in the hospital in Miami, FL. in 1971 shortly before he died. Lois took a clipping from that plant and gave it to visitors to Stepping Stones and asked them to "Pass It On", hence establishing the name "Pass It On Plant" My wife and I received our clipping from Ray & Ginny in Akron, OH. and were told it was a 4th Generation clipping from the original plant. They in turn asked US to "Pass It On" too. We make every attempt to do that to those who ask when we meet them. This plant is common in this area of North East Ohio, but to MY knowledge is not part of the plants around 855 Ardmore St. and is ONLY given away as a gesture of fellowship to "Pass It On" Hope this helped, Fred I. Lorain,OH. (Fritz689 at adelphia.net) - - - - From: LS31101@aol.com The Swedish ivys I grow here in Houston came from an Alanon from New York who was told by her sponsor that they originally were propagated by Lois Wilson. The plant originally was said to be brought home from Bill's hospital room after he died. I was told my original was from a sixth generation cutting. The idea was to "pass them on" in remembrance of Bill W. - - - - Original message from: bonniesue98 I have a beautiful Swedish Ivy plant that I grew from a clipping I won at a Gratitude Dinner several years ago. Rumor has it that the clipping came from a plant which still grows today at Dr. Bob's home in Akron. I understand visitors can get clippings from this plant, and that it is the same plant that was alive when Dr. Bob and his wife were living there. - - - - Message 2999 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2999 From (Fritz689 at adelphia.net) I was given a clipping from the Creeping Charlie Plant that was at Bill's bedside while he was in the hospital in Miami in 1971. The lineage of the plant that was shared with me was, from Lois Wilson it went to Scotty M. (from South Carolina) who told him to PASS IT ON as a rememberance of Bill and the fellowship that was CREEPING into the world. Scotty M. passed it on on Micheal E. from Evans, Georgia, who passed it on to Ginny G. from Lake Milton, Ohio, who gave a clipping to my wife and myself Fred & Katie I., from Lorain,Ohio. - - - - From Glenn C. in South Bend (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) The plant from which cuttings are being passed around is described as "Creeping Charlie" or "Swedish ivy." These names tend to be somewhat confusingly assigned to three different kinds of plant, one of which is usually considered a weed nowadays (even though it was deliberately brought over to the United States by the early European settlers), so it probably is not that one. So is the plant in question Plectranthus australis or Plectranthus verticillatus? 1. PLECTRANTHUS AUSTRALIS Swedish ivy (Plectranthus australis) Slightly oval, bright green leaves have rounded toothed margins. Stems are somewhat square, trailing and green turning purplish. Unattractive small white flowers are significant because they should be removed as they appear. Sap stains finger orange. Plectranthus australis is a member of the mint family, and it's not an ivy, which is rather odd, since it's called Swedish Ivy. 2. PLECTRANTHUS VERTICILLATUS Plectranthus verticillatus: Swedish Ivy, Swedish Begonia, Creeping Charlie. Plectranthus verticillatus, native to eastern South Africa, is called "Swedish Ivy" because its discoverer first sent it to Sweden, where it quickly became widely grown as a house plant. From there it was introduced to the rest of Europe and the U.S. It is sometimes erroneously sold as P. australis, a synonym of P. parviflorus, which is a com- pletely different species native to Australia. In addition to use as an easy container plant, this semi-succulent Plectranthus is adaptable to sun or shade outdoors. It makes an attractive, fast-spreading groundcover in mild climates and can be used as a summer bedding plant where it freezes in winter. In the wild, it is highly variable, but in the European and U.S. trades there is apparently only one clone. It has white flowers spotted violet in fall and winter. Occasionally seen is a sport that is randomly striped and blotched with white. In South Africa there are other clones, including one with pink flowers. 3. GLECHOMA HEDERACEA Creeping charlie (Glechoma hederacea), also known as ground ivy and creeping jenny, is a low-growing perennial weed that thrives in moist, shady areas of the lawn and garden. The four- sided stems grow to lengths of 15-30 inches with roots forming at the nodes, where leaves join the stem. Its leaves resemble those of the common geranium, round and scalloped, but are much smaller in size. In the early spring an abundance of tiny, lavender to blue flowers appear on 2 or 3-inch spikes. Creeping Charlie, ground ivy, gill-on-the-ground, creeping Jenny – it doesn't matter what name you call it, this is a weed that's difficult to control. Glechoma hederacea is a perennial weed in the mint family that spreads by seeds, rhizomes and creeping stems that root at the nodes. This European native was introduced to North America by early settlers who thought it was a good groundcover for shade. The bright green, round or kidney-shaped leaves have scalloped edges and are produced opposite each other on the square (four-sided) stem. In spring small, bluish-purple, funnel-shaped flowers bloom on short stems. When the plant is crushed, it produces a strong mint-like odor. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4343. . . . . . . . . . . . Harry Stack Sullivan etc. From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2007 8:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There was a group of women in AA in NYC and the area ca 1947-53 who (I believe at Marty Mann's suggestion)were in group therapy with the Sullivanite therapist Dr. Frank Hale at 167 E 82nd St: they called themselves "Hale's Hearties." (See my THIS STRANGE ILLNESS: ALCOHOLISM AND BILL W, 2004, pp. 306-07 -- the same book includes discussion of Tiebout, Sullivan, Sandor Rado, and others, in the Chapter on "Mind: The Psychology of Alcoholism" pp. 129-166 -- The importance of Rado should not be overlooked). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4344. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sullivan and Horney From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2007 9:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cora You are employing a practice of putting your words in my mouth and criticizing me for what you are articulating. There is an abundance of written material from Bill W on the three main channels of inspiration for AA's program of recovery (the 12 Steps). He identified them as Dr Silkworth, the Oxford Group (principally through Sam Shoemaker) and William James. Dr Tiebout's commentary after a May 1944 talk by Bill W to the Medical Society of the State of NY (and Tiebout's January 1944 paper "Therapeutic Mechanism of Alcoholics Anonymous") lean more toward suggesting that psychiatry had something to learn from AA rather than the other way around. But perhaps I'm just being a bit too obvious based on the written record. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of corafinch Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:35 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Sullivan and Horney In Message 4327, Arthur Sheehan wrote: > FYI - I wonder if there is too much search for > the obscure and not enough for the overt? Looking past Harry Tiebout and Frances Wickes to identify influences on the development of AA is hardly searching for the obscure. Tiebout had an inquiring and wide-ranging mind -- if he didn't, he would never have given a thought to that strange multilith document that landed on his desk in 1939, and the course of history might have been changed. I'm sure he was successful. He could just as well have rested on his laurels, earned his generous salary, allowed himself to feel superior to other people who didn't know as much as he did about treating alcoholics. Instead, he read the book and encouraged Marty Mann to give it a chance. He was willing to consider the validity of points of view differing from his own. Why assume that Harry Stack Sullivan, the premier social psychologist of the era, would have held no interest for him? And I'm sure Tiebout wasn't the only one in 1940s AA who was interested in studies of the psychology of groups. Here is one example, not intended as an answer to the general question about Sullivan's influence but possibly a contribution to an answer. An academic psychologist by the name of O. Hobart Maurer had published extensively in the area of learning theory beginning in the 1930s . Although he was not a therapist he was loyal to Freudian ideas and had been analyzed several times for his recurring depressions. During the second world war he worked (I believe for the CIA but possibly it was the defense department) in Washington, developing interviewing and training techniques for service personnel. Sullivan trained and mentored the other psychologists on the project. Over the next few years, Dr. Maurer had a complete change of heart, totally rejected Freudian theory, and developed a rather extreme type of group therapy which he called "Integrity Therapy." One of the influences leading to this change was Sullivan, although there were others -- including, strangely enough, a novelist who had been associated with Frank Buchman. Integrity Therapy had a brief period of intense popularity, during which it was instrumental in the development of the therapeutic-community approach to drug treat- ment. Hobart Maurer, by the way, originated the phrase "You are your secrets" which morphed into "You are as sick as your secrets" and is associated (by some people, at least) with AA. He had many friends and associates in AA besides his obvious connection to the rehab culture. I believe Ernie Kurtz, in one of the essays in "The Collected Ernie Kurtz", remarked on the importance of Harry Stack Sullivan to the philosophy of alcohol and drug rehab. I know many will reject this as unrelated to AA, but if AA is its members surely rehab personnel have been important. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4345. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: Chris . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/3/2007 9:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all, Given that the Calvary Mission was on East 23rd Street, between 2nd and 3rd Avenues (3 long blocks east of 5th Avenue), and that the Stewart's Cafeteria discussed here is essentially at West 4th Street and 7th Avenue (two long blocks west of 5th Avenue) and there being the 19 blocks north to south between the two locations, either A) The Stewart's referenced in the posts is not the Stewart's we are interested in, or B) The use of the term 'near' is open to a very broad interpretation. I am a resident of NYC. Now -- and I am sure then -- there are plenty of places between the Mission and Sheridan Square to stop for coffee and pie. IF this Stewart's is the actual destination, it would have been because of the crowd, rather than the proximity to the Mission. Maybe the OG was out to save the folks from the Partisan Review. But if Bill and the rest of the Squadron went there, it wasn't for convenience's sake. Chris --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "johnlawlee" wrote: > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, > "Arthur S" wrote about the > OG alcoholics going to Stewart's Cafeteria > after OG meetings. > > The "alcoholic squadron" of the OG used to > meet in Stewart's Cafeteria in 1935, which was > the exact period that the startup staff of the > Partisan Review met in the same establishment > late at night. The two groups no doubt > interacted, as they stood in line for apple > pie and coffee. I recall reading that Stewart's > was open all night, and had an automat format. > There must have been an interesting contrast > in the discussions of the two groups, the > drunks complaining about the "churchies" from > the OG, and the communists complaining about > the opium of the people. > > john lee > where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio > > > > Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, > > Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at > > Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary > > Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and > > Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, > > NG 314) > > > > Cheers > > Arthur > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4346. . . . . . . . . . . . Where to get the Chicago early AA pamphlets and can openers From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2007 11:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII hi Group, Someone emailed me, asking where the five pamphlets of my last post can be found. The early Chicago Group was blessed with literate journalists, clergy, public relations, and judiciary professionals. There are actually 10 pamphlets still in print and each continues to carry the AA message well past a half century. They're found in the CASO (Chicago Area 19 Service Office) Bookstore catalog online: 1. go to http://www.chicagoaa.org 2. Open the Bookstore link http://www.chicagoaa.org/bookstore/index.php 3. Open the catalog link (which is a .pdf file), http://www.chicagoaa.org/announcements/Bookstore%20Catalog.pdf find the Chicago AA pamphlets on page 9, the first ten on the list. 4. Enjoy! Rick, Illinois p.s. my favorite is "Out of the Fog" and it greatly helped me early on in my AA recovery. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4347. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2007 6:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rick-- I was interested in your post today on the Chicago pamphlets; I have tried to get original publication dates for the five you mention here, with no luck. I hope if you find them you'll share on History Lovers! Also, what is the "All Things Considered" that you mention below? Another pamphlet? I have been away from my email, and am just catching up, so maybe I missed a reference to it in an earlier posting? If you could clarify, I'd appreciate. thanks much, and you are right-- this is a great thread! Trysh T. ricktompkins wrote: > > > One thing about the Chicago Group and its > printing---in the winter of 1940 a reprint of > a column in the Chicago Sun or Herald-American > newspaper was used two ways: as a public > relations (P.I.) resource and a carry-along > (handout) for new members and their families. > > "All Things Considered" was written by the > same gentleman who later wrote an "Acceptance" > pamphlet that's still independently published > and available, but right now I can't remember > his name ... The column described attending > a Tuesday night "Big Meeting" of the Chicago > Group, and it dealt enthusiastically with AA > recovery and the AA Fellowship. > > The Chicago Central Office AA published at > least five pamphlets for newcomers ("can > openers") before 1950; I'll try to get all the > titles and first printing dates but all are > from the mid-to-late 1940s: > > "The Devil and AA" > > "Out of the Fog" > > "AA-God's Instrument" > > "Impressions of AA" > > and a few others. All are printed today! > Great thread! > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4348. . . . . . . . . . . . 1941 Big Book with Red Covers. From: Mike Custer . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2007 4:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When the 1st edition, 2nd printing of the Big Book first came out (in March 1941) I was told there were about a hundred sold with RED COVERS on them before they went to the blue covers. Is this correct or not? Thank you for your time, God bless, Mike :) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4349. . . . . . . . . . . . I''m looking for info on T. Henry & Esther E. From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 3:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm looking for information on the following: a) T. Henry and Clarace Williams I need more than their being the Grandparents of AA / that Bill put him out of a job with National Rubber Machinery Co./ and their street address. Where did these two great OG'ers come from? How did they know Henrietta Seiberling? Why was it that she would ask them to help the "Alcoholic Squad"? What happened to them when AA broke from the OG in Akron? Does Akron AA know more about these non- alcoholic great friends of AA? b) Esther Gehl Elizardi I'm looking for more that what is listed in her story or on line. [Houston and Dallas, Texas -- her story, "A Flower of the South," is in the 2nd edition p. 343, 3rd edition p. 384. The standard online account of her life is at both http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Esther%20Elizardi and http://silkworth.net/aabiography/estherelizardi.html ] Perhaps a Houston or Dallas AAHL member can help me by asking the Intergroup Archivist for any information they have on her. Your help, as always, is much appreciated, Shakey Mike Gwirtz ************************************** Going June 23 to Archives gathering in Lebanon, Pennsylvania -- see message 4318 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4318 September 6-9 to the 11th National Archives Workshop in Phoenix, Arizona -- see webpage http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com I hope to see you all there... ************************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4350. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 1:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chris, You're confusing Calvary House with the Calvary Mission. The Oxford Group meetings were held at Calvary House, next to Calvary Episcopal [21st and Park Ave. South]. The Calvary Mission was in the "Gashouse District" near the Bowery. Calvary House to West Village is not a particularly taxing walk. john lee pittsburgh - - - - Chris wrote: Hello all, "The Calvary Mission was on East 23rd Street, between 2nd and 3rd Avenues (3 long blocks east of 5th Avenue), and ... the Stewart's Cafeteria discussed here is essentially at West 4th Street and 7th Avenue (two long blocks west of 5th Avenue)" which means "19 blocks north to south between the two locations." This is quite a long distance to walk just for pie and coffee. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4351. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 5:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Oxford Group meetings were held at Calvary Hall in Calvary House not the Calvary Mission - that's a big booboo on my part. The abridged posting from a larger timeline document is in error in more ways than one (thank you for pointing that out). It should have read: ========================= Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at Calvary Hall in Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG’s US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park Ave) and 21st St. Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held) was at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144) Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at Stewart’s Cafeteria. Attendees included Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, NG 314) ========================= I have no specific address for where Stewart's Cafeteria was located. I assume due to public transportation the distances, whatever the number of blocks, would not have been all that big a factor. During the early 1960s I used to work on 14th Street and 5th Ave and most of my favorite watering holes were in the Bronx near the Yonkers line - the distance never slowed me down. If anyone does know what the actual address of Stewart's Cafeteria was I'd love to find out. A Google search reveals it had a prominent place in many colorful roles over time and was likely located in Greenwich Village, 14th St and 7th Ave as you note. Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4352. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 4:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Arthur S. and Doug B. - - - - From: "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) I've come across conflicting reports on this by reputable authors and would love to see a conclusive answer that can be independently confirmed. Rowland was born October 29, 1885 and passed away on December 20, 1945 (reputedly at his office desk at work). He tragically lost two sons in World War II. Arthur - - - - From: "Doug B." (dougb at aahistory.com) chouki, Ask your speaker to cite his "source" for this information and you won't have to worry about finding an answer for them ... I'll bet you won't get a response or if you do, it'll be a very vague one. Thanks one reason I started studying our history ... there were too many experts out there with totally different information. Doug B. PS: Just because it's said from a podium doesn't make it true, it only makes it "said." (that's my 2 cents....no change necessary, thanks.) - - - - Original message from: fogielchouki I've heard a speaker not long ago saying that Rowland Hazard drank again before he died. chouki IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4353. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 2:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Read the book Ebby, the man who sponsored Bill W. by Mel B. ----- Original Message ----- From: fogielchouki To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 12:08 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? I've heard a speaker not long ago saying that Rowland Hazard drank again before he died. chouki [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4354. . . . . . . . . . . . Difference between sanitariums and asylums in the 1930s? From: terry144434 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2007 3:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What was the difference between a "sanitarium" and an "asylum" during the 1930s? In "More about Alcoholism," pg. 31, it mentions, amongst other things we have used as methods to try to drink like other people: going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums. My question is, what was the difference between the two kinds of establishments? their different approaches to aiding alcoholics? and definitions to these types of treatments back in the 1930's. regards Terry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4355. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2007 1:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Over the past three years, a good deal of very accurate information about the life of Rowland Hazard has been assembled by three careful researchers, working principally from the collected papers of Rowland's extended family. The first work published was Richard M. Dubiel, Ph.D.,, a professor at the University of Wisconsin: "The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous" (2004) http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html which established a good many dates and events from Rowland's life, and demonstrated that the traditional AA claim that Rowland had a year of analysis with Carl Jung in 1931 could not be correct, because one could determine where Rowland was for all points in that year. If he contacted Jung at all during 1931, it could only have been for a very short period of time, and Dubiel was dubious about even that. In the period immediately following the publication of this book, two other researchers, Amy Colwell Bluhm, Ph.D., and Cora Finch, working independently, extended Dubiel's research further. They corroborated the facts that Dubiel had discovered, but then went on to establish that Rowland actually arrived in Zurich to begin psychoanalysis with Carl June in May 1926 (five years earlier than the traditional A.A. date). Rowland was in fact in analysis with Jung for an extended period of time during that year -- this part of the traditional AA story was correct -- but the traditional year was wrong. It was 1926, not 1931. The mystery was thereby solved. Bluhm and Finch also added many other dates and details to the account of Rowland's life. See Bluhm's article "Verification of C. G. Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the American Psychological Association's journal History of Psychology in November 2006 and Cora Finch's long account of Rowland Hazard's life and struggles with alcoholism at http://www.stellarfire.org/ The work of these three researchers -- Dubiel, Bluhm, and Finch -- independently corroborates one another's work. The dates and information are based on numerous family letters, written back and forth between various members of Rowland's extended family, which are dated and consistent with one another. The traditional AA claim that 1931 was the year when Rowland Hazard was in analysis with Carl Jung was based on a statement by Bill Wilson which then got repeated and repeated. The fact that the date 1931 got blindly repeated hundreds of times by scores of other people who also had never bothered to check to see whether that date was right, is irrelevant. Bill W. simply got the date wrong. This was hardly the first time that he got his numbers wrong, either! ********************************************* HERE ARE SOME EXCERPTS FROM RICH DUBIEL'S BOOK: Richard M. Dubiel, Ph.D., "The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous (2004) http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html There are many periods noted in Dubiel's book during which Rowland seems to have been drinking heavily. For example, during the period of his hunting trip in Africa in 1927, in February and March 1932 (when he had to be hospitalized) and starting up again in January 1933 (where he was unable to fully resume his normal business activities until October 1934). Dubiel says (page 66): "We do know that Hazard did not remain sober throughout his life, and did drink again after 1934," that is, after Hazard rescued Ebby Thacher and Ebby got Bill Wilson sober. Dubiel refers to one of these relapses in note 195: Hazard had a serious relapse into drinking in New Mexico in August 1936, and had to be shipped back to New York by his family. See Thomas P. Hazard Papers, Series 2, Subseries 3: Rowland Hazard III files, at the Rhode Island Historical Society. ********************************************* LET US GIVE THIS NOW IN ITS FULL CONTEXT: page 62 Rowland Hazard III was born in Peace Dale, Rhode Island, on October 29, 1881. (Bill Wilson was born in 1895 and Dr. Bob Smith in 1879, so he was closer to Dr. Bob’s age, and fourteen years older than Bill W., who likely seemed to him but a brash young man.) Rowland (“Roy”) represented the tenth generation of his family in Rhode Island. The first American Hazard, Thomas, was born in 1610; he came over to the New World after the British had begun settling in Massachusetts, taking up his residence first in Boston, then the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Roy was the eldest of five children born to woolen manufacturer Rowland Gibson Hazard and Mary Pierrepont Bushnell. Hazard graduated from the Taft School in Waterbury, Connecticut, and Yale University (1903) with a B.A. degree. He sang in the Glee Club and University Choir and was a member of Alpha Delta Phi fraternity as well as the Elihu Club. After graduation Hazard worked at family businesses in Chicago and Syracuse briefly, then entered the woolen textile trade in Rhode Island, where he joined the Peace Dale Manufacturing Company, which specialized in woolen and worsted fabrics. The firm had been founded circa 1801 by his great-great-grandfather and his great-grand-uncle, Rowland Hazard and Joseph Peace Hazard respectively. He began work in the wool-sorting department and worked his way up, eventually being elected treasurer of the firm. The firm was sold in 1918. page 63 Hazard served in the Rhode Island state senate between 1914 and 1916 and spent World War I as a captain in the Chemical Warfare Service of the Army. Shortly after the war a number of family deaths left Hazard the eldest member of his generation. In 1919 he effected a plan originally formulated by his father and uncle and formed the Allied Chemical and Dye Company. By 1920 he was a director and so remained throughout his career. By 1921 Hazard had also joined the New York banking firm of Lee, Higginson and Company and remained there until 1927. Throughout this period he remained active in Rhode Island politics. In the fall of 1927, Hazard went on a hunting expedition to Africa for big game and specimens for American museums. He contracted a tropical illness, and on his return to the United States in 1928 settled on the West Coast. He established a ranch in southern New Mexico, at La Luz, and shortly organized the La Luz Clay Products Company. He had discovered substantial deposits of high-grade clay for the manufacture of items ranging from roofing tiles to decorative urns and vases. Upon establishing La Luz, he returned to the East Coast to pursue other ventures. By 1931 he had transferred his residence from Peace Dale, Rhode Island, to a family home in Narragansett, Rhode Island, originally built in 1884 by his greatgrand-uncle, Joseph Peace Hazard, and known as Druid’s Dream. “He also kept residences intermittently at 52nd Street and other addresses in Manhattan; in La Luz, New Mexico; at ‘Ladyhill’ in Shaftsbury, Vermont; and at ‘Sugarbush’ in Glastonbury, Vermont.” In his later years, following his move to Narragansett, Hazard served as the executive vice president of the Bristol Manufacturing Company, Waterbury, Connecticut, manufacturers of precision instruments. He also served as a director of the Allied Chemical and Dye Company, the Rhode Island Hospital Trust Company, and the Interlake Iron Company. From 1935 to 1938 he was in a general partnership with the New York brokerage house of Taylor Robinson Company, Inc. At one point he was director of the old Merchants’ Bank in Providence. p. 64 In 1910 Hazard married Helen Hamilton Campbell, the daughter of a Chicago banker. The couple were divorced on February 25, 1929, and remarried on April 27, 1931, little more than a month before the trip to Europe during which Hazard was supposed to have had his crucial encounter with Carl Jung. Rowland and Helen had four children, Caroline C., Rowland G. III, Peter Hamilton, and Charles B. Of these four, it was Charles who lived the longest, dying in 1995. pp. 65-66 The Hazard family papers also show that after January 1933, Rowland went through a long period when he was virtually incapacitated by his personal problems. He ceased being actively involved in the ventures he had begun in New Mexico, and his brother-in-law Wallace Campbell had to take over all his regular business. Rowland’s canceled checks showed only routine payments (although they were still signed by him) for many months afterward. Finally in late 1933 he completely stopped writing any checks at all. During most or all of this period, he seems to have been in Vermont under the care of Courtenay Baylor, and only occasionally made trips to New York to see family and sign checks. He was unable to return to his normal high level of activity until October 1934. So the period when Hazard was Courtenay Baylor’s patient corresponded to the deepest slump in his life, the time between January 1933 and October 1934, when this normally aggressive and continuously active businessman, industri- alist, and entrepreneur seems to have been rendered almost totally nonfunctional by his psychological and alcohol-related problems. Baylor may in fact have been first called in when Hazard was hospitalized for his alcoholism in February and March of 1932, but this would be merely supposition. We do know that Baylor visited the family and worked in some fashion with other family members also during 1933 and 1934. But the lack of full detail means that though we know that their continuing relationship existed during this period, we know little else about it. The available documents thus do not allow us to discover whether Hazard’s enthusiasm for the Oxford Group was aided by his work with Baylor or diminished by it. We do know that Hazard did not remain sober throughout his life, and did drink again after 1934. p. 69 Whether from his therapy with Courtenay Baylor or his participation in the Oxford Group (or both combined), Rowland Hazard was ultimately apparently able to achieve at least significant periods of continuous sobriety; whether he achieved real serenity and happiness we cannot know. p. 78 Hazard’s later years seem to have been pros- perous enough, although he never did join Alcoholics Anonymous. In 1936 he became a member of the Episcopal Church and remained active in several of its organizations. Throughout the latter part of his troubled life, Hazard relied on the fellowship of the Oxford Group (including activities such as his work with Ebby Thatcher in 1934) to aid and comfort him in his struggle with alcohol. It was fellowship that helped him even toward the end of his life, when he was being returned to New York after his 1936 binge. note 195 The only dark spot occurred in August 1936 when Rowland had a serious drinking bout. A packet of correspondence of Rowland’s brother Thomas documents the binge in New Mexico and Rowland’s return trip to New York, see Thomas P. Hazard Papers, Series 2, Subseries 3: Rowland Hazard III files, RIHS. Stattler cites one letter that proposed enlisting the aid of an Oxford Grouper, Shep C. [Shep Cornell], to help Rowland. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4356. . . . . . . . . . . . Sr Ignatia''s book of excerpts from St. Ignatius Loyola From: bern . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2007 12:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bernie: The name of that book with the excerpts, is "Confidence In God." It is out of print. I have an autographed copy of it. Chuckie -----Original Message----- 'The other little book which Sister Ignatia sometimes gave to people who passed through her treatment program was a book of excerpts from the "Spiritual Exercises" of St. Ignatius Loyola (1491 or 1495-1556), the founder of the Jesuits .... if anyone in the group has a copy of that particular book of excerpts from St. Ignatius which Sister Ignatia passed out ... I would be deeply grateful for a photocopy of it. It would be important to know what portions of the "Spiritual Exercises" were excerpted, in order to get a better idea of the sources of early AA spirituality.' IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4357. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration, W. Long Branch NJ, 7/21/07 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2007 8:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Area 44 History & Archives Committee cordially invites you to the Fourth Annual Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration! Saturday, July 21, 2007 at 3:30PM (rain date July 28, 2007) At his gravesite in Glenwood Cemetery, Route 71 (Monmouth Rd.), West Long Branch NJ. Speakers: Barbara Silkworth (a family member) and Ed R. (nephew of Dr. Silkworth’s nurse Teddy) Dr. William Duncan Silkworth is the author of the two letters in “The Doctor’s Opinion” in the Big Book “Alcoholics Anonymous” and is known as a friend to millions of alcoholics worldwide. He detoxed Bill Wilson (AA’s co-founder) in N.Y.C. after Bill finally got sober in 1934. He gave deep understanding and great encourage- ment to an infant society in the days when a lack of understanding or a word of discouragement might easily have killed it. He freely risked his professional reputation to champion an unprecedented spiritual answer to the medical enigma and the human tragedy of alcoholism. Without his blessing, our faith might well have died in its birth. He was a luminous exception to the rule that only an alcoholic understands an alcoholic. He knew us better than we knew ourselves, better than we know each other. Many of us felt that his medical skill, great as that was, was not at all the full measure of his stature. Dr. Silkworth was something that it is difficult even to mention in these days. He was a saintly man. He stood in an unusual relationship to truth. He was able to see the truth of a man, when that truth was deeply hidden from the man himself and from everyone else. He was able to save lives that were otherwise beyond help of any kind. Such a man cannot really die. We wish to honor this man, a gentle doctor with white hair and china blue eyes. Dr. Silkworth lived on Chelsea Avenue in Long Branch, New Jersey, attended Long Branch High School where he has been inducted in that school’s Hall of Fame, graduated from Princeton University, and lived for a while in Little Silver, New Jerseu. He was born on July 22, 1873 and died on March 22, 1951. PLEASE BE SURE TO BRING A LAWN CHAIR OR SOMETHING TO SIT ON. If you have any questions please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell) or email archives@nnjaa.org DIRECTIONS: Take the Garden State Parkway (north or south) to Exit 105 (Route 36), continue on Route 36 approximately 3 miles through 5 traffic lights (passing Monmouth Mall, two more shopping plazas, and several automobile dealerships). Watch for green road signs stating “Route 71 South, West Long Branch and Asbury Park” (this is just before the sixth light). Take this turnoff to the right, past Carriage Square and bear right onto Route 71 (Monmouth Road). Glenwood Cemetery appears very quickly on the left (the entrance is marked by two stone pillars and the name). Once inside the cemetery, bear left, go up the hill and make the first right (a hard right). The gravesite is near the first tree on the right. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4358. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron From: Ken WENTZ . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2007 12:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi History lovers, regarding the location of Stewarts cafateria, as a child in the early 60's my father, a fireman in NY used to take me to the Horn & Hardart Cafe at E. 14th St. between 3rd & 4th Avenues. It had an automat and was very old at that time (1965). Could this be the "cafeteria" they went to? Horn & Hardart was a big food corporation. Did they buy Stewarts & re-name it? It's certainly a lot closer to Calvary Mission. There was a White Rose Saloon next to the Cafeteria on E 14th if that's any help. ........... love this site Sober Ken Clearwater IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4359. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: I''m looking for info on T. Henry & Esther E. From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2007 2:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mike, T. Henrys address was 676 Palisades Drive in Akron Ohio. (1.7 miles from Dr Bob's house - about a 6 minute drive) Do you know what the T. in T. Henry stands for? Doug B. Shakey1aa@aol.com > I'm looking for information on the following: > > a) T. Henry and Clarace Williams > > I need more than their being the Grandparents > of AA / that Bill put him out of a job with > National Rubber Machinery Co./ and their > street address. > > Where did these two great OG'ers come from? > How did they know Henrietta Seiberling? Why > was it that she would ask them to help the > "Alcoholic Squad"? What happened to them > when AA broke from the OG in Akron? > > Does Akron AA know more about these non- > alcoholic great friends of AA? > > b) Esther Gehl Elizardi > > I'm looking for more that what is listed in > her story or on line. > > [Houston and Dallas, Texas -- her story, > "A Flower of the South," is in the 2nd > edition p. 343, 3rd edition p. 384. The > standard online account of her life is at both > http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Esther%20Elizardi > and > http://silkworth.net/aabiography/estherelizardi.html ] > > Perhaps a Houston or Dallas AAHL member can > help me by asking the Intergroup Archivist > for any information they have on her. > > Your help, as always, is much appreciated, > Shakey Mike Gwirtz > > ************************************** > Going June 23 to Archives gathering in > Lebanon, Pennsylvania -- see message 4318 > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4318 > > September 6-9 to the 11th National Archives > Workshop in Phoenix, Arizona -- see webpage > http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com > > I hope to see you all there... > ************************************** > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4360. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Bill W. have a home group? From: Chris . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2007 1:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, Unquestionably, Bill was a very busy man after he settled at Stepping Stones (which I just visited for their annual picnic and recommend to all History Lovers). Does anyone know if he actually had a home group up in Westchester, or perhaps he made the trip down to the City for meetings or maybe his commitments just made it unfeasible for him to join one particular group. In curiosity, Chris IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4361. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/8/2007 3:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Wilson's meeting at 182 Clinton St. in the 1930s was quite literally Bill's home group, until the house was lost to foreclosure. I've been unable to pinpoint the origins of the term "home group." It seems to be a fixation of the Grapevine staff since the 1980s. The term is not found in the Basic Text or 12&12. I haven't been able to find any mention of the term "home group" in reference to the co-founders. Can anyone find any mention of the term in AA materials published prior to the 70s? Is this another situation similar to the yarn that AA's original six steps came the Oxford Group? "Home group" seems to be a designation invented in the 70s or 80s; if that is true, the concept would have been nomenclature developed after Bill Wilson's death in 1971. Bill wouldn't have had a "home group" any more than he would have surfed the Internet or written about President Bush. john lee pittsburgh Chris wrote: Hi All, Unquestionably, Bill was a very busy man after he settled at Stepping Stones (which I just visited for their annual picnic and recommend to all History Lovers). Does anyone know if he actually had a home group up in Westchester, or perhaps he made the trip down to the City for meetings or maybe his commitments just made it unfeasible for him to join one particular group. In curiosity, Chris IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4362. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/9/2007 2:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Grapevine archives indicate that first use of the term "home group" in that publication was in 1947, or shortly after Bill Wilson published his series of Gravevine articles ["Twelve Points to Assure Our Future"] on what became the Twelve Traditions. Bill's articles on the Traditions don't speak of home groups, but letters published by others in the magazine after 1946 gradually begin to refer to "home groups." Sometime in the 1940s the idea of meetings morphed into "groups" which morphed again into "home groups." The Grapevine magazine seems to have the driving force behind this transformation, and continues, to this day, to be the bastion of the idea of home groups. Marty Mann was one of the editors of the Grapevine in the 1940s, prior to her involve- ment in the National Council on Alcoholism. Marty went to her first meeting in 1939, held in a fancy East Side apartment in Sutton Place, Manhattan. Bill Wilson selected that meeting for Marty, apparently to impress Mrs. Mann with the refinement of the attendees. If you type "home group" on the Search feature of this site, you'll notice that "home group" is almost always cited as "my home group." It's become almost iconic to many in the Fellowship. We often hear members say at meetings that they use their home group as their Higher Power, although, speaking personally, I've never prayed to my home group. john lee pittsburgh "take the Steps...you'll be contacted" Chris wrote: Hi All, Unquestionably, Bill was a very busy man after he settled at Stepping Stones (which I just visited for their annual picnic and recommend to all History Lovers). Does anyone know if he actually had a home group up in Westchester, or perhaps he made the trip down to the City for meetings or maybe his commitments just made it unfeasible for him to join one particular group. In curiosity, Chris --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4363. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Rowland H. remain sober till he died? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2007 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a factual error in one of the state- ments which Rich Dubiel made on page 62 of his book on the Immanuel Movement and Jacoby Club. Dubiel says: "Hazard graduated from the Taft School in Waterbury, Connecticut, and Yale University (1903) with a B.A. degree." The Taft School [use the upper case in The] is in Watertown, not Waterbury: located at 110 Woodbury Road, Watertown, Connecticut 06795 See http://www.taftschool.org/ Waterbury is in New Haven County, Connecticut, about twenty miles north of the city of New Haven. Watertown is a smaller place, about five miles from Waterbury, but located across the county line in Litchfield County, Connecticut. Waterbury's main claim to fame is that I was born there and a Hickox forbearer was among the original settlers. We bought property in Watertown in 1678 and have been there since. On page 63, Rich Dubiel says: "In 1919 [Rowland Hazard] effected a plan originally formulated by his father and uncle and formed the Allied Chemical and Dye Company. By 1920 he was a director and so remained throughout his career." I worked for Allied mid-60s. My under- standing of its origin is that it consisted initially of German holdings, National Aniline in particular, seized when the U.S. entered WW I. I do not know this to be a fact but it is what I heard when working for Allied. This factoid, if true, may or may not interest the historians. I have read that the Hazards usually went to Brown, but Rowland wanted to go to Yale, his mother's family's school. Taft was considered a prep for Yale. Perhaps this is how he ended up there. Tommy in Baton Rouge, Taft '57 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4364. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: scrapple and the Alcoholic Squadron From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2007 3:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Horn & Hardart was an automat chain out of Philadelphia, best known for its incredibly poor version of scrapple. Its best known location was the one Ken describes at E. 14th near Union Square. I don't believe that location had anything to do with early AA. Jim Burwell, one of the three Honor Dealers, would have been the early AA expert on scrapple. Stewarts was in Sheridan Square, in the heart of the West Village. Stewarts was a well known automat, open 24 hours, which attracted crowds of intellectuals, actors, writers and general characters. I brought up the name of the cafe- teria a few months ago, in an attempt to paint some historical context to the early years of the Bill Wilson Movement. Stewarts was a hotbed of late night New York intellectual life, attracting, among others, the startup staff of the Partisan Review in 1935 and 1936, the exact years when the Alcoholic Squad was breaking away from the Oxford Group. At adjoin ing tables, the early members of what became AA would have been grousing about the overbearing "churchies" of the Oxford Group while the Commie editors of the Partisan Review were deploring religion as the "opiate of the people". Two groups of zealots, at the same time and location, with two entirely different viewpoints on Higher Power. AA History shouldn't be just a collection of "facts," but a snapshot that tells a story. john lee pittsburgh "help others, don't get caught" - - - - From: "hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) Subject: Re: Stewart's Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron I lived in Little Italy, just off Houston in '65, was tending bar in a place on Houston called the QUEEWEE and believe I was in the Automat you describe. sherry - - - - Ken WENTZ wrote: Hi History lovers, regarding the location of Stewarts cafateria, as a child in the early 60's my father, a fireman in NY used to take me to the Horn & Hardart Cafe at E. 14th St. between 3rd & 4th Avenues. It had an automat and was very old at that time (1965). Could this be the "cafeteria" they went to? Horn & Hardart was a big food corporation. Did they buy Stewarts & re-name it? It's certainly a lot closer to Calvary Mission. There was a White Rose Saloon next to the Cafeteria on E 14th if that's any help. ........... love this site Sober Ken Clearwater IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4365. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2007 5:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I have a number of the booklets already mentioned and have a couple of others that might be of interest. 1. "MATT TALBOT and ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" An Analysis of a man and the Program by a Member of Alcoholics Anonymous. Copyright 1948 Catholic information Society of New York. This is a Forty page booklet. The first Twenty being devoted to his life. the balance how the program relates to his recovery. 2."A Priest Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous" by An Alcoholics Anonymous. Copyright 1947 by The Missionary Society of St. Paul the Apostle in The State of New York. This is a Thirty-two page booklet with Four chapters. Chapter 1. "Spiritual Not A Religious Program" Chapter 2. "Medicine's Contribution" Chapter 3. "AA Experience Builds Transmission Line" Chapter 4. "The A.A. Fellowship" These are followed by an Appendix, The Just for Today messages (Two pages plus) and a Don't Quit message with a contact address Inter-Group Association of AA 194 East 75th St. New York 21 Telephone BUtterfield 8-9643. 3. I also have a Fifteen page booklet "Hope for Alcoholics" by Dr. Julian Lake, First Presbyterian Church Winston-Salem, North Carolina. I can't date this except that I know that he was minister from 1949 till 1962 in Winston-Salem. 4. A Sixteen page booklet "A Way of Life" compiled by Five Points Group Birmingham, Alabama, in 1945, published in Birmingham with no print date. Of interest it has Forty test questions.  5."Victory over Defeat" A 56 page booklet. Contents - An Address by a member to Men's Club of the Flossmoor Community Church Ill 3/12/1944. An analysis of Step No. Three (undated). A Scrap Book of Leslie E. Salter dated 3/15/1944 (This includes the Just For Today" poem by Samuel Wilberforce) and a list of suggested "reading list." The Three copies of the AA 1943 copyright I have, have different beginnings and endings. These have a Box 459 address. The December 1941 printing of The Houston Plain Dealer articles has PO Box 658 Church Street. These are all hard copies. I can scan if anyone wants a copy. In fellowship - Dudley Dobinson from the Emerald Isles IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4366. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Difference between sanitariums and asylums in the 1930s? From: pvttimt@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2007 10:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com) There is a wonderful book, called "Slaying the Dragon," by William L. White. It covers a lot of the history of recovery methods .... When I read it I was surprised at the variety and extent of ways that were tried to help people recover. During my tenure in AA I have usually only heard about the Oxford Group and the Washingtonians. - - - - From the moderator, Glenn C. (South Bend) Bill White's "slaying the Dragon" is the classic work in this field. You can read about the Inebriate Asylum Movement, the Keeley Cure, Inebriate Farms and Inebriate Colonies, the Water Cure, Convulsive Therapies, alcoholism treatment in "state hospitals," and learn about all the other terms that were used in talking about alcoholism treatment at different points in history. William L. White, "Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America" (Chestnut Health Systems, 2002). Can be ordered directly from Chestnut Health Systems: http://www.chestnut.org/LI/bookstore/Blurbs/Books/A104-Dragon.html The Table of Contents gives you the long list of topics that Bill White covers in his book: http://www.chestnut.org/LI/bookstore/Blurbs/Books/dragontc.html - - - - From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) Asylum, as Bill used it, most likely referred to an insane asylum, or hospital specializing in the treatment of persons with mental illness. Although there were also orphan asylums etc. The word sanitarium was used to indicate a health resort. Love and Serve Jim in Cent Oh. - - - - From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) Dear Terry, I'm just another alcoholic, certainly no A.A. historian, but here's the dictionary definitions: ASYLUM: Institution for maintainance and care of mentally ill, orphans, or other persons requiring specialized assistance. SANITORIUM/SANITARIUM: Institution for the preservation or recovery of health, esp. for convalescence; health resort. Lynn S., an alcoholic hailing from the Traditional Group, Carmichael, Northern California. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4367. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2007 5:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chris: I was a member of the Chappaqua group (next town to Katonah, where Bill lived) from 1959, when I came in, until 1963, when I moved upstate. Bill was considered an "honorary member," but I don't recall that he came much, if ever, to any of our group's three meetings a week. I think at this stage it was hard for him to attend meetings. The fuss and lionization problem, I'd guess. I became a regular in this same period at a Friday night discussion meeting at the Bedford Hills group that met in a church there; Bill never came to that either. Stepping Stones I think straddles the line between the two villages. Tom W. Odessa, TX _______________________________ On Jun 7, 2007, at 12:42 PM, Chris wrote: > Hi All, > > Unquestionably, Bill was a very busy man after > he settled at Stepping Stones (which I just > visited for their annual picnic and recommend > to all History Lovers). > > Does anyone know if he actually had a home > group up in Westchester, or perhaps he made > the trip down to the City for meetings or > maybe his commitments just made it unfeasible > for him to join one particular group. > > In curiosity, > > Chris IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4368. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/9/2007 7:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Sally Brown and Gerry D. - - - - From: "Sally Brown" (rev.sally at worldnet.att.net) This is a "shaggy-dog" response to Chris's original question about the origin of the home group idea. I came to AA and sobriety in Aug 1977, in Arlington, Virginia. My sponsor, who had been sober 25 years by then (she was actually from Bronxville, New York, originally), suggested that in addition to the steps, I have a home meeting, plus one step meeting/wk, and one speaker mtg/wk. If I wanted to add other meetings, that was fine. She never mentioned 90 mtgs in 90 days, nor did anyone else except for one lady who said some people liked to do 60 mtgs in 60 days. Also, nobody said we had to do the steps in order. In fact, my sponsor just laughed and said the order was arrived at by men after the fact, anyway. Partly the arrangement was from their experience, of course, but they also imposed a logical, linear order that appealed to their natures. Women tend to have much more circular reasoning. and to jump around the steps. (In some religious circles, this common male/female difference is known as Jacob's Ladder and Sarah's Circle.) Personally, I did come to see that Step 4 needed to precede Step 5, and that both were an asset in tackling Steps 6-7-8-9. The step mtg where I got sober was already my home mtg, so that was a two-fer. I have always appreciated my sponsor's observation that no sponsor ever knows everything, and it's advantageous to learn as well from other people's experiences with the steps. That has certainly been true for me, and is what I pass on to my sponsees. In the SF Bay Area, however, it seems to be the custom, and expectation, these days for sponsors to function as the sole source of wisdom in "taking their sponsees through the steps." I rarely hear step meetings mentioned, although we now have a few sprinkled around. In fact, I founded one many years ago so that we would have more than one choice at that time. Nor have I heard others recommending a home meeting and speaker meetings. I'm curious about the patterns in other parts of the country, and their history. One of the great contributions of AAHistoryLovers is the constant reminder of how our beloved fellowship continues to evolve idiosyncratically within the guidelines of the Traditions. Local issues seem to arise when we think "my way or the highway." Yet somehow we stumble through without bringing the world to an end. End of soapbox! Shalom - Sally ***************************************** Rev Sally Brown, Board Certified Chaplain, United Church of Christ 1470 Sand Hill Rd #309, Palo Alto, California 94304. Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net) Coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com ***************************************** FROM GERRY D. IN IRELAND: "gerry d" (frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk) Having a home group or as we call it here an anchor group has been in Ireland since I can remember. A lot of people call whatever group they go to their home group but we can only have one home group as only the group can make decisions at a group conscience. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4369. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Swedish ivy clippings from Dr Bob''s house? From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2007 7:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Gary Becktell (and Cindy Miller): Here is a handout that I got with my Swedish Ivy cutting. I now have several in my home and give out starts whenever I can. PASS IT ON This Swedish Ivy start came from a plant that was given to Bill Wilson before he died. When he passed on, Lois took the plant home. A start was given to a man named Marty. He in turn gave a start to a woman named Michael Manning-Evans. Michael was one of the speakers at the 1997 Capital Jamboree in Olympia. She brought a start for each one of the board members. In telling her story she indicated that at first she kept her start to herself and it grew spindly and never branched out. After she began taking starts from the plant and passing them on to others it began to flourish and branch out, just as we do as we grow in the program. When your plant is ready to pinch, pass it on so it can grow. Easy does it! rrr ************************************ From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) I got mine from the Seattle intergroup at the Archives Workshop in 2000 .... (and now about 50 other people have it!) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4370. . . . . . . . . . . . Need help to find the source From: Janet . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2007 11:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm looking for the name of the book, the name of the publisher, and the name of the original author, for a posting from another AA group. The post was titled "It Ain't In The Book" and listed what we often hear at meetings and what the BB has to say about it. It is lengthly, and I would be glad to post it here if anyone wants me to. Here is an example: "Remember your last drunk" Page 24, Paragraph 2: "We are unable, at times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink." I am on the newsletter committee for my district and we would like to include a monthly article. We need permission from both the originator of this piece, and the publisher to reprint so that we don't violate copyright laws. Thanks, Janet IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4371. . . . . . . . . . . . Directions to PA History & Archives Gathering June 23, 2007 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2007 11:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Fourth History & Archives Gathering in Central Pennsylvania will be held Saturday June 23, 2007 at St Cecilia's Social Hall, 750 State Drive, Lebanon, Pennsylvania, same location as last year. E-mail histandarch@comcast.net for additional information. These are the directions for getting there as copied from the announcement Jared L. sent out last year. DIRECTIONS: From Pennsylvania Turnpike exit at Route 72 (Lancaster-Lebanon Exit), take Route 72 North into Lebanon (about 6 miles plus). In Lebanon turn right on Route 422 East at traffic light. Continue to Lincoln Avenue (about half a mile or less). Turn right on Lincoln to Y in road where you take the left fork onto State Drive. St Cecilia's Parish Hall is on the left about a quarter-mile up. From Lancaster take Route 72 (Manheim Pike) North to Lebanon and then as above. From the Northwest, take Route 322 East to I-81 North just outside of Harrisburg. Take I-81 N to Route 934 and go south on Route 934 (away from Fort Indiantown Gap) a short distance to Route 22. Take Route 22 East to Route 72 South. Follow Route 72 South through center of Lebanon to Route 422 East and then as above. From the North on I-81 Exit at Route 72 South through Lebanon to 422 East and then as above. From the East on Route 78 Exit at Route 343. Follow Route 343 (a couple of miles) into Lebanon (N. 7th Street). Turn left on Maple Street. Go about three-fifths of a mile to Lincoln Avenue. Turn right on Lincoln to Y in road and continue left on State Drive as above. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4372. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator out of town June 13-26, 2007 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2007 6:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn C. will be off on a trip to Pennsylvania, leaving June 13th and returning June 26th.* Fiona D., County Mayo, Ireland fionadodd@eircom.net (fionadodd at eircom.net) will be doing all the moderating during that time. Fiona has been doing a variety of jobs on the AAHistoryLovers since almost the very beginning, including the mammoth task of transferring in the old messages from the AAHistoryBuffs in June and July of 2002. ______________________________ *Including attending the History & Archives Gathering in Lebanon, Pennsylvania, on Saturday, June 23rd. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4371 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4373. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Need help to find the source From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2007 7:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the Primary Purpose website in Dallas, Texas: http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/notinbook.htm I do not believe it is a book but something from the web site mentioned above. - - - - The Primary Purpose website link was also sent in by: "Mark W." (allday_31419 at yahoo.com) John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) "momaria33772" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) - - - - Originally from Janet (octoberbabye at yahoo.com): > I'm looking for the name of the book, the > name of the publisher, and the name of the > original author, for a posting from another > AA group. > > The post was titled "It Ain't In The Book" > and listed what we often hear at meetings > and what the BB has to say about it. > > It is lengthly, and I would be glad to post > it here if anyone wants me to. Here is an > example: > > "Remember your last drunk" > > Page 24, Paragraph 2: "We are unable, at > times, to bring into our consciousness > with sufficient force the memory of the > suffering and humiliation of even a week > or a month ago. We are without defense > against the first drink." > > I am on the newsletter committee for my > district and we would like to include a > monthly article. We need permission from > both the originator of this piece, and the > publisher to reprint so that we don't > violate copyright laws. > > Thanks, Janet > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4374. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: chris mahl . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2007 7:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chris: I got sober in Massachusetts in 1986, moved to New Jersey and then New York City in 1988. I got a sponsor Bill B (he remained my sponsor until his death 4 years ago) in New York City in 1988. Bill B got sober in December 1958 in New York City and had a huge impact on AA in the Upper East Side of New York City. Bill and I visited the Manhattan Group from time to time, Bill B's original home group. Bill B told me stories of Bill W being a regular there and participating. He never said it was his home group. Yet, his description did make it feel like it was an important group to Bill W. I also believe it was among, if not the first, AA group in New York City. Our archivist at GSP could provide more, i'm sure. Chris -- Chris Mahl 10 Ventures Rightmedia Exchange www.rightmedia.com PDA 7186123281 Fax 18668230272 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4375. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: home groups (in Mexico) From: Angela Corelis . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2007 2:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, being out of the US, we are one group (easier bookeeping), the Serenity Group with 18 meetings: each week 2 BB study, 2 Step/tradition ( usually alternate step one week, tradition the next), 2 As Bill Sees It, 2 Living Sober, 2 Daily Reflection, the above are scheduled one at 9 am, the other 6:30 pm meeting and 2 speaker meetings -- both evening meetings. The other topic/discussion are Came to believe, Grapevine, a Men´s meeting, a Women´s step meeting and a Gay (GLBT) meeting. So, if the PV Serenity Group is one´s home group...you get it all... This system has worked for 21 years that I am aware of and the Serenity group was established and has held continous meetings since 1965 in the PV area. Angela C Come visit us January 25, 26, 27,2008 for the 5th Annual Sobriety Under the Sun AAConvention ...see www.aapvconvention.com for more info and registration. After convention a NO Booze Cruise is available (not included in convention fees) to Quimixto, a secluded beach village only accesible by boat for a day of sober fun, swimming, snorkling, hiking, horseback riding and an open AA meeting on the beach with breakfast and lunch- IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4376. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Bill W. have a home group? From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2007 1:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII