AA History Lovers 2008 Messages 4775-5452 moderated by Nancy Olson September 18, 1929 – March 25, 2005 Glenn F. Chesnut June 28, 1939 – IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4775. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant January Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2008 1:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Significant January Dates in A.A. History Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking. Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School. Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of "Alcoholics Anonymous". Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression. Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA. Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob. Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety". Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus, Ohio Central Group. Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland. Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded. Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan. Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get away from the Oxford Group atmosphere". Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years sober. Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous, died. Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group. Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School, Akron, Ohio. Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years dies. Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician Heal Thyself" died. Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC. Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri. Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto. Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started in Oct 24 1943. Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in his sleep. Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in Pennington, New Jersey. Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001. Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church in Brookyn Heights. Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL. Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley. Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1. Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus Contra Spiritum". End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated for comment, evaluation and sale. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4776. . . . . . . . . . . . Annette Smith, Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2008 7:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII New book just out: Annette R. Smith, Ph.D., "The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous: How It Works," December 2007, ISBN 978-0-595-47692-3, xx + 150 pp. http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html With an introduction by Linda Farris Kurtz, DPA, Professor Emeritus, Eastern Michigan University School of Social Work, author of "Self-Help and Support Groups: A Handbook for Practitioners." http://hindsfoot.org/kas2.html In the Preface to her book, Annette Smith describes how she became involved in this research: Although I am not myself a member of A.A., I have been intimately involved with the program and its membership for many years. In 1969, while I was working as a clinical social worker on the alcoholism treatment unit at a state mental hospital in California, the local A.A. Hospital and Institutions Committee asked to hold a meeting at the hospital. However, the administration said there were no rooms available. So, I arranged for the patients to be bussed to my house every Thursday night, where the meetings were held in my living room. This went on for almost a year until the hospital finally made a room available. During this initial exposure to A.A., I developed a close association with the fellowship, and through the years I have continued to attend open meetings and participate in many informal A.A. social activities. In 1982, I returned to graduate school at the University of California, San Diego, to pursue my Ph.D. in sociology. As I developed my socio- logical interests, it seemed almost a natural progression in my involvement with A.A. to be able to look at it from the new perspective of scholarly research. The primary content of this book, including the data and references, was originally part of the dissertation submitted in 1991 in partial fulfillment of my Ph.D. in Sociology. The theoretical and methodological approaches are those of symbolic interaction and quali- tative field study. The focus is on interactive processes, which are not captured by survey research. Therefore, research efforts require the kind of intimate familiarity that can only be achieved through participant observation and other qualitative methods. The supportive data has been drawn primarily from participant observation over a twenty-three-year period in which I was associated with A.A. and from in-depth interviews with fifty-one members conducted in the course of the dissertation and previous research (Smith, 1986). Examples and citations presented included statements heard during several hundred open A.A. meetings in several geographic areas of the U.S. and abroad, and both professional and personal conversations with A.A. members. Additional material and interpretive insights have been drawn from the A.A. literature and referenced secondary sources. Interview subjects were initially recruited by placing notices on bulletin boards at four local A.A. social clubs and in chapter newsletters of the National Council on Alcoholism and the Employee Assist- ance Professionals Association. Interviews were limited to those with at least two years of continuous sobriety in an effort to provide some protection against harmful emotional effects to which those in early sobriety are vulnerable. As patterns of experiences began to emerge, additional subjects were sought through snowball sampling that focused on the need for stories reflecting these patterns. The total interview sample consisted of twenty-eight men and twenty-three women, with ages ranging from nineteen to seventy. Length of sobriety ranged from two to over twenty years. All interviewees could be categorized as low middle to middle class, with occupa- tions ranging from skilled labor to technical and professional. Three women and two men were unemployed at the time of the interview. Only one of the women categorized herself as a homemaker, and none of the subjects were retired. Ethnically, most were Caucasian, although one black male, one Native American male, and one Hispanic female were also in the sample. These variations did not appear to affect the general pattern of experiences reflected for those constructs under study. A topic guide was used for interviews that established demographic information on age and other categories, including date of A.A. membership and date of current continuous sobriety. Questions addressed included the individual's perception of himself or herself in terms of interpersonal relationships and preferred ways of associating with others, how he or she first came to A.A., what happened there, feelings about what happened and ways in which the person has participated in A.A. since. The interviewees were also asked how and when they accepted themselves as alcoholic, and what they saw as most important in A.A. recovery. As the various chapters of this book were completed, they were read by selected A.A. members for accuracy of organizational informa- tion and validity of suggested patterns and constructs. In the presentation of data, great care has been taken to protect the anonymity and confidentiality of all living A.A. members. Subsequently, a new edition of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous was issued (AAWS, 2001), and several noteworthy works have been added to the qualitative research literature. A paper on the social construction of group dependency based on a chapter of the disserta- tion was published (Smith, 1993). Makela, Arminen, Bloomfield, et al. (1996) compared the development of A.A. as a social movement in eight societies; Wilcox (1998), Jensen (1999) and Pollner and Stein (2001) provided studies of aspects of A.A. culture; and O'Halloran (2003) examined differences between ethnographic and ethnomethodological (conversa- tion analysis) methods in studying Alcoholics Anonymous. Other relevant publications on the subject include L. Kurtz's (1997) handbook for practitioners on self-help and support groups, which references some of the material included in the dissertation, and Bishop and Pittman's (1994) second volume of their A.A. bibliography. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4777. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob P. (GSO Manager 1974-84) died Jan. 1st From: Mike Terhune . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2008 8:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bob P. -- A Sober Life Well Lived General Manager of the General Service Office from 1974 to 1984 At 2:14 MST this morning, January 1, 2008, Bob Pearson departed this life at the age of 90, sober for the final 46-1/2 years. Born February 19, 1917, Bob leaves behind a loving wife of 63 years and a family of children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, along with a countless host of alcoholics ever indebted to his life of love and service. - - - - At the suggestion of Carter E., I wanted to share my tiny bit of AA history with this group. The following is a tribute to a dear friend that I posted to the NRV AA listserver: For several hours yesterday afternoon, I once again found myself blessed by sobriety and the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Along with a dozen AA's and several other friends, I was invited by the family of Robert G. Pearson to attend the celebration of a life well lived. Crowded into a small bedroom at his home in Bellevue, Idaho, we were given the opportunity to sit with Bob and express our love, sadness and gratitude in a way rarely seen outside of our program and, certainly, in a manner never before experienced by this servant. I first met Bob P. in May 2004 at a meeting in a room typical of many AA meetings, a tiny confine in the basement of a church hall in Hailey, Idaho. Outwardly, this man appeared no different from any other drunk I've met in many other meetings over the past quarter century, though a bit older than most. He began his share with "My name's Bob and I'm a happy alcoholic," as he would each and every time he spoke in AA. His precise words of that day are lost with the passing of time but I'm certain his theme was as it always was: the joys of a sober life and the fact that AA does not teach us how to stop drinking, but how to live life without drinking. At the end of the meeting, Bob asked if anyone in the room would be attending the upcoming Spring Assembly in Pocatello. As newly appointed GSR for my group, I had been looking for someone to share the three-hour ride. I introduced myself to him and was immediately invited to drive him and his wife, Betsy, to the conference. Along the way, I learned much about the amazing life of this wonderful couple. Previously of Greenwich, CT, Bob had worked for the Grapevine, later becoming its editor. It was during this time that he met Bill W. Bob often related the tale of their first meeting, Bob gushing all over Bill and Bill replying with the simple phrase "Pass it on." From 1974 to 1984, Bob served as General Manager of the G.S.O. and was its Senior Adviser from 1985 until his retirement in 1987. As Bob napped along the way, Betsy regaled me with stories of the times they had shared with Bill and Lois. By the end of the trip we had become fast friends. I've since often been invited to house sit for the couple and entrusted with the care of their pets during their frequent travels about the country. I have shared many a Tuesday afternoon lunch with them after the noon meeting of the Wood River "To Handle Sobriety Group," Bob's home group. Bob and Bets, along with their sons (Brad and Ridley) and daughter (Wendy) have become, in their words, a surrogate family for me here in Idaho. Though I never heard Bob tell his entire story at an AA meeting, I was privileged to again drive him to Pocatello where he was to be the featured speaker for a group anniversary. After his introduction, he asked those in attendance if we would mind if he did not share his E, S & H, rather telling us stories of his time in New York, of (previously, to me) nameless characters from the Big Book and a bit of the history of Alcoholics Anonymous. Of course, no one minded and Bob captured this group of drunks for more than an hour with a chronicle of AA brought to life. Sadly, we have lost a connection to our legacy. At 2:14 MST this morning, Bob Pearson departed this life at the age of 90, sober for the final 46-1/2 years. Born February 19, 1917, Bob leaves behind a loving wife of 63 years, a family of children, grandchildren and great- grandchildren, along with a countless host of alcoholics ever indebted to his life of love and service. Goodbye, Cap'n.. you will be missed Mike Terhune IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4778. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Don Black: baseball players and anonymity issues From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2008 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have some information on Don Black and much more on Hemsley. I have nothing to indicate they knew each other. I have a pamphlet with Black's picture and short story published by the World League Against Alcoholism of Westerville, Ohio reproduced by permission from article by Kenneth F. Weaver in THE ALLIED YOUTH and an oversized baseball card by Capital Publishing Company with stats. For information on his sudden collapse on the field and later death see NOW PITCHING Bob Feller with Bill Gilbert on pages 142, 155, 157, 161-162. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4779. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amelia Reynolds, Oxford Group author From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2007 3:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "diazeztone" wrote: > > Information wanted about Amelia S. Reynolds, > an Oxford Group author. She wrote: > > Amelia S. Reynolds, "New Lives for Old" (New > York: Fleming H. Revell, 1929). 96 pages > Could she be the same person as Mrs. Howard Reynolds of Winnipeg, Manitoba? Mrs. Reynolds was quoted in a 1936 Time article about the Stockbridge Oxford Group event: "Our budget is God-controlled. There is a real thrill and purpose in teas and dinner parties." Howard Reynolds later directed many of the MRA dramatic productions, according to Garth Lean's book about Buchman. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4780. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet in Physician Heal Thyself ??? From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2007 2:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I heard him tell that story many times ... he described it as a piece of paper on which was written something like "Considerations for the man who is thinking about stopping drinking." The person who gave it to him, whose name I've forgotten, was a fraternity brother of Earle's and lived in Marin County quite near where Earle lived. Earle wrote a book with the same title as his story in the Big Book, and the information may be in there. - - - - Original message 4774 from Terry W (twalton at 3gcinc.com) What was the title of the AA pamphlet mentioned in the Big Book story "Physician, Heal Thyself" ??? In the personal story of Earle Marsh he mentions a pamphlet given to him by a friend. Does anyone know who the friend was, or the title of the pamphlet described below? I am assuming it was an AA pamphlet. Is it still in circulation? BB story page 346 3rd ed. On the last day I was drinking I went up to see a friend who had had a good deal of trouble with alcohol, and whose wife had left him a number of times. He had come back, however, and he was on this program. In my stupid way I went up to see him with the idea in the back of my mind that I would investigate Alcoholics Anonymous from a medical stand- point. Deep in my heart was the feeling that maybe I could get some help here. This friend gave me a pamphlet, and I took it home and had my wife read it to me. There were two sentences in it that struck me. One said, "Don't feel that you are a martyr because you stopped drinking," and this hit me between the eyes. The second one said, "Don't feel that you stop drinking for anyone other than yourself," and this hit me between the eyes. Thank you, Terry W IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4781. . . . . . . . . . . . Matt Talbot research From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2007 3:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For those of you who are interested in the figure of Matt Talbot, a good scholar in A.A. history named John Blair has just started a website which brings together a enormous amount of material on him: ______________________________ Venerable Matt Talbot Resource Center http://venerablematttalbotresourcecenter.blogspot.com/ "The Venerable Matt Talbot Resource Center blogspot exists to compile writings about the life, times, and alcoholism recovery of Matt Talbot (1856-1925) from Dublin, Ireland. Disclaimer: The placing of information on this blogspot from external linked sources does not necessarily imply agreement with that information. This center is independent of any other group or organization." ______________________________ Among early AA authors, Father Ralph Pfau (the Father John Doe of the Golden Books) was a strong supporter of Matt Talbot as an example of how a spiritual triumph over alcoholism could be accomplished. William D. Silkworth, M.D. (1873-1951) also encouraged the formation of Matt Talbot groups in Catholic parish churches in a talk he gave which was published in the National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism's Blue Book: "The Prevention of Alcoholism: A Challenge to the Catholic Clergy." This article is available online at: http://silkworth.net/silkworth/prevention.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4782. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlet in Physician Heal Thyself ??? From: TBaerMojo@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2008 9:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If you google for the words "15 points for an alcoholic to consider" you will find a pdf of a brochure by that name printed by Alcoholics Anonymous - UK which has the text that you are seeking. http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/newcomer/pack/15_Points.pdf I have a photocopy of a very old version of the same information printed by Street Printing Company in Birmingham, Alabama in the 1940s. It was locally produced but I have not yet found a surviving original printed copy. Tim B. - - - - Terry W. was looking for the source of these two phrases: One said, "Don't feel that you are a martyr because you stopped drinking," and this hit me between the eyes. The second one said, "Don't feel that you stop drinking for anyone other than your- self," and this hit me between the eyes. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4783. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Book: first 7 editions From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2008 3:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A while back, Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona, told me that there were two print runs of The Little Red Book made in 1949. The only difference between the two 1949 print runs was that the first printing had a minor typesetting error (a segment of text inserted upside down) and was recalled as soon as this was discovered, so that not many copies of the first printing actually got out. - - - - Mark F. just sent me an email in which he said: To Whom it May concern: I received a Little Red Book from my sponsor after he passed away, the cool thing is it is a 1949 First Printing. To verify the two top sentences on pg 62 are upside down. So I can see why they decided to produce a second printing that year. Thanks for the information. - - - - So based on what Mark has now verified about the 1949 printing, together with the inform- ation we already had posted from Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) and Tommy H. (Baton Rouge, Louisiana), we can lay out a fully verified time line and description for all of the early printings of The Little Red Book. 1st edition August 1946 2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover) 3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover) 4th edition 1948 5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the first print run, the two top sentences on pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected in the second print run. 6th edition 1950 7th edition 1951 (and so on) - - - - Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in fact kept on making changes in the book all the way to the end of his life in 1971. We should remember that numerous changes were also made in The Little Red Book after Ed Webster's death on June 3, 1971, by editors at the Hazelden Foundation who believed that they "could write better" about alcoholism than Ed Webster. But they did not make changes that fundamentally changed any of the basic material, so the version of The Little Red Book currently available from Hazelden is still usable for AA beginners classes. Use of The Little Red Book was approved by the New York AA office at a very early date, and it is perfectly acceptable for reading in AA meetings. Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should be taken as a kind of benchmark version for many purposes, since this was the last edition where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book. I can see a kind of sense in what he said. - - - - Message 4021 from Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4021 laid out most of this. See also http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html And thanks again to Mark F. for writing me and telling me what he had found. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4784. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob P.''s obituary From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2008 11:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From today's Idaho Mountain Express: Robert Greenlees Pearson With his wife, Betsy, children, Brad, Wendy and Ridley, their spouses and his grandchil- dren by his side, Bob Pearson died peacefully of "old age" in his home in Bellevue, Idaho, on Jan. 1, 2008. Born the only child of somewhat nomadic parents, Ridley Stilson and Agnes Greenlees Pearson, on Feb. 19, 1917, Bob was not formally edu- cated until the third grade. He took to academics easily, skipping grades and gradu- ating from Kansas University at 18, where he served as editor of both the university's humor magazine and yearbook. A skilled writer, Bob was the focus of a national scandal when a Scribner's Magazine article, "Ghost Behind the Grade," published in 1938, revealed that e had paid his way through college by ghost- writing hundreds of grade-specific papers for fellow students in dozens of classes and seven universities. His writing led him to New York City where he went to work for the Shell Oil Co. in public relations, and later met his wife of 63 years, Betsy Dodge. With the advent of World War II, Bob enlisted as an officer in the U.S. Navy, and was assigned aboard a destroyer escort as the ship's gunnery officer. He participated in numerous missions in convoys across the Atlantic. Bob wrote speeches for the admiral of the Navy, as well as for two presidents, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman. His destroyer escort was part of the historic capture of a German U-boat, north of the Azores. It was the first submarine ever boarded and taken prior to the destruction of any of its hardware or its Enigma radio codes -— only days prior to D-Day, later immortalized in the motion picture "U-571." In 1945, he was honorably discharged, holding the rank of lieutenant commander. Following the war, Bob and Betsy eventually settled in Riverside, Connecticut, where Bob was an avid runner and skier and served as senior deacon in the First Congregational Church of Greenwich. In his 38 years with Shell Oil, Bob's most notable accomplishments involved that company's sponsoring of major sports. Working with the NBC television network, Bob was instrumental in popularizing golf by bringing the sport to live television for the first time in "Shell's Wonderful World of Golf." He also participated in Shell's sponsorship of Craig Breedlove's pursuit of the world land speed record in a jet-propelled car, on the Bonneville Salt Flats in the mid-1960s. But it was Bob's personal crisis that would prove to define his life. Beginning with his service in the Navy, Bob had grown addicted to alcohol and, some 20 years later, nearly died of alcoholism. He was encouraged by physicians to join a fledgling group called Alcoholics Anonymous, in Greenwich, Connect- icut, in 1961. Bob P., as he was known in that organization, found sobriety and dedi- cated himself to AA service, even working on occasion with its co-founder, Bill W. He served on local and national boards of AA, and eventually was appointed general manager of AA's World Service Organization, where, for 10 years, 1974-1984, he oversaw the enormous international growth and spread of AA worldwide. The organization played an influential role in the establishment of over a hundred unrelated, so-called 12-step programs, which have resulted in millions' conquering various addictions. Through his service to AA, Bob P., with wife Betsy (a longtime member of Al-Anon), traveled the world, speaking to both small AA groups as well as at its international conventions of 50,000 or more attendees. His "AA story" was published as the closing story in "Alcoholics Anonymous," AA's "Big Book," which remains one of the most widely published and perennially best-selling books in the world. Bob and Betsy moved part-time to Bellevue, Idaho, in 1980, soon making it their permanent home. Here, Bob P. continued to serve AA, both as a speaker and contributor to its national archives. Bob's life was defined by his dedicated service to Alcoholics Anonymous, an organization whose members depend on one another for their survival. His family wishes to extend their thanks to the hundreds of local AA members, and thousands of national members, who supported Bob's sobriety, gave him a charmed life, and who continue the great traditions of this wonderful and necessary organization. A memorial celebrating Bob P.'s service in Alcoholics Anonymous will be held Friday, Jan. 11, (check local flyers) in Sun Valley, Idaho; a public memorial for friends and family will take place at the Church of the Big Wood, Ketchum, Idaho, at 4 p.m., Saturday, Jan. 12. Donations in Bob's name will be gratefully accepted by the Sun Club, Ketchum, Idaho. (The entire Pearson family wishes to extend their gratitude to Drs. Hall and Fairman, Hospice and Palliative Care of the Wood River Valley, and especially Johnna Pletcher and Gloria Clark for their loving in-home care and assistance.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4785. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book: first 7 editions From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2008 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 14:35 1/4/2008 , Glenn Chesnut wrote: > >1st edition August 1946 > >2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover) > >3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover) > >4th edition 1948 > >5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the >first print run, the two top sentences on >pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected >in the second print run. > >6th edition 1950 > >7th edition 1951 (and so on) A nice summary, Glenn. However, I would note that these early Little Red Books are usually referred to by printing number, not edition. That said, these numbers were not assigned until the 11th printing in 1954. I believe the more proper descriptive word would be edition as you use it as changes were made for the different printings. Use of the word printing implies that the content is the same, but we know that to be different in this case. For those interested, the copyrights are as follows: Printings 1-5 1946 6 1946-1950 7 1950 8-9 1951 11-14 1951 15-25 1957 There are no copies of the 10th printing that I am aware of and I don't know the story. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated. I would also like to point out that this information is for the Coll-Webb editions of the Little Red Book and they are in a larger format book than the Hazelden printings which started some time in the 1960s. There are at my count seven different types published by Hazelden in the smaller format with the 1957 Coll-Webb copyright. Glenn C. went on to say: >Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book >during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in >fact kept on making changes in the book all >the way to the end of his life in 1971. > >Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should >be taken as a kind of benchmark version for >many purposes, since this was the last edition >where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book. >I can see a kind of sense in what he said. > I think Jack is correct. It would be inter- esting to tabulate the changes from the first printing in 1946 thru the fifth in 1949. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4786. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Recovery Outcome Rates From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2008 8:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome Rates: Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation January 1, 2008 By Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas), Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, New York), and Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) See http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html This article cannot be sent out in email format, because of all its charts, graphs, notes and so on. It can be read as an Adobe PDF file: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf Or as an MS Word DOC file: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989 show that, of those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. Of those who are in their fourth month of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who have completed their initial ninety days, and have thereby demonstrated a certain willingness to really try the program), 56% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4787. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and drugs From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2008 1:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Occasionally I hear or read that Bill W. took "a laundry list" of drugs during his sober years, yet I can't seem to get any details, except for the false statement that he "dropped acid for five years." Can anyone point me to this "laundry list" he used? Jim S. - - - - Jim, SEDATIVES: There are numerous references to Bill W. (and many other early AA people, like Father John Doe) taking "sedatives," which seems to have meant mostly barbiturates and powerful bromide compounds. These compounds were what drug addicts call "downers," but barbiturates were not designated as controlled substances in the United States until 1970. Bromides just about totally disappeared from the market when better sedatives were developed. LSD: On LSD, go to our message board at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and do a search for "LSD." You will find over 40 past messages on this topic. The basic account of how Bill W. experimented with LSD is found in Ernie Kurtz, "Drugs and the Spiritual: Bill W. Takes LSD" in Ernie's book, "The Collected Ernie Kurtz," p. 39. At the time Bill W. was experimenting with it, it had only recently been developed. It was not yet illegal, nor had its potential for misuse and harm been dis- covered yet. MARIJUANA: In the 1920s and 30s, musicians like Louis Armstrong and Bing Crosby were using marijuana (just as later on, Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, and John Denver used it). In 1936, the movie "Reefer Madness" (originally financed by a church group) portrayed high school students being lured into marijuana usage leading to a hit and run accident, manslaughter, suicide, rape, and the descent into madness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness Franklin D. Roosevelt's administration criminalized marijuana in the United States in 1937. I have never found any reference however to early AA members being involved specifically with marijuana, or making any specific mention of it, so I do not know whether it was an issue to them or not. OTHER DRUGS: As far as I can tell, when early AA people referred to "drug addicts," they seem to have been referring mostly to opium smokers and people who injected heroin or snorted cocaine. As the old jazz lyrics went, "Honey, take a whiff on me": http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiWHIFFME.html http://www.cocaine.org/cocaine-habit.html http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-songs-with-chords/Take%20A%20Whiff%20 On%2\ 0Me.htm [1] Early AA people were a different social class (doctors, lawyers, stock brokers, business people, newspaper people, and so on) from the jazz musicians and people from the urban slums who were involved in drugs of that sort back in the 1930s and 40s. Most Americans were not exposed to these drugs in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. In fact, it was not until the latter 1960s and early 70s that the average American came into any contact with drugs of this sort. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4788. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book: first 7 editions From: handlebarick . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2008 6:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings all; I have: 1. A Large Second Printing January 1947 Copyright 1946 By Coll-Webb Company International Copyright 1946. Has no outside writing on cover. This one on inside page one (counting back from first page with a number being # NINE)is printed only the words The Twelve Steps. On page three printed is: An Interpretation of The Twelve Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program, Coll-Webb Co., Publishers P.O. Box 564 Minneapolis, Minnesota MCMXLVII Copyright info is on page four. 2.A Large Eighteenth Printing 1964 and on (unnumbered)page one only states: The Little Red Book On page (unnumbered)three printing is: The Little Red Book An Orthodox Interpretation of The Twelve Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program 1964 The Little Red Book Box 564, Main P.O. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55440 United States of America. Page four has Copyright 1957 International Copyright 1957 By Coll- Webb Company. Also on this page is a lists of printings that reads: 1st printing 1946 2nd printing 1947 3rd printing 1947 4th printing 1948 5th printing 1949 6th printing 1950 7th printing 1951 8th printing 1952 9th printing 1953 10TH PRINTING 1954* 11th printing 1955 12th printing 1957 13th printing 1959 14th printing 1960 15th printing 1961 16th printing 1962 17th printing 1963 18th printing 1964 * states 10th printing Also printed on this page is: $2.50 U.S.A. $2.75 Outside Territorial U.S.A. Printed and Manufactured in the United States of America. 3. A (Still) LARGE Twenty-fourth printing 1970. Page one (unnumbered) prints: The Little Red Book. Page three states The Little Red Book An Orthodox Interpretation of The Twelve Steps Of The Alcoholics Anonymous Program 1970 Hazelden Center City, Minnesota 55012. Page four states: Copyright 1957 International Copyright 1957 By Coll-Webb Company. Also on this page: Twenty Printings from 1946-1966 21st printing 1967 22nd printing 1968 23rd printing 1969 24th printing 1970 4. A Large 1996 50th Anniversary by Hazelton/Pittman 5. A Small edition. Page one (unnumbered) reads: THe Little Red Book. Page three states: The Little Red Book An Orthodox Interpretation of The Twelve Steps of The Alcoholics Anonymous Program Hazelden Center City, MN, 55012 Page four is limited to Copyright 1957 International Copyright 1957 By Coll-Webb Company. (No printing Date or number) Also page four has ISBN 0-89486-004-6 Printed and Manufactured in the United States of America. 6. A Small Revised Edition Inside unnumbered page three reads: The Little Red Book. Inside unnumbered page five states: The Little Red Book Hazelden (only) Inside unnumbered page six: First published 1957 Revised Edition, Copyright 1986 Hazelden Foundation. Printed in the United States of America. Also has Editor's note: proclaiming it's disclaimer. Author's Note is numbered 1. All these books have statements of Rights Reserved on page four. Rick S. Wapakoneta, OH --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox wrote: > > At 14:35 1/4/2008 , Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > > >1st edition August 1946 > > > >2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover) > > > >3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover) > > > >4th edition 1948 > > > >5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the > >first print run, the two top sentences on > >pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected > >in the second print run. > > > >6th edition 1950 > > > >7th edition 1951 (and so on) > > A nice summary, Glenn. However, I would note > that these early Little Red Books are usually > referred to by printing number, not edition. > That said, these numbers were not assigned > until the 11th printing in 1954. > > I believe the more proper descriptive word > would be edition as you use it as changes were > made for the different printings. Use of the > word printing implies that the content is the > same, but we know that to be different in this > case. > > For those interested, the copyrights are as > follows: > > Printings 1-5 1946 > 6 1946-1950 > 7 1950 > 8-9 1951 > 11-14 1951 > 15-25 1957 > > There are no copies of the 10th printing that > I am aware of and I don't know the story. > Any info on this would be greatly appreciated. > > I would also like to point out that this > information is for the Coll-Webb editions of > the Little Red Book and they are in a larger > format book than the Hazelden printings which > started some time in the 1960s. There are at > my count seven different types published by > Hazelden in the smaller format with the 1957 > Coll-Webb copyright. > > Glenn C. went on to say: > > >Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book > >during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in > >fact kept on making changes in the book all > >the way to the end of his life in 1971. > > > >Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should > >be taken as a kind of benchmark version for > >many purposes, since this was the last edition > >where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book. > >I can see a kind of sense in what he said. > > > > I think Jack is correct. It would be inter- > esting to tabulate the changes from the first > printing in 1946 thru the fifth in 1949. > > Tommy H in Baton Rouge > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4789. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob P.''s obituary From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2008 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 10:05 1/4/2008 , Mike wrote: >His >destroyer escort was part of the historic >capture of a German U-boat, north of the >Azores. It was the first submarine ever >boarded and taken prior to the destruction >of any of its hardware or its Enigma radio >codes -— only days prior to D-Day, later >immortalized in the motion picture "U-571." I mean no disrespect to the memory of Bob P but this statement is incorrect. Since it has nothing to do with A.A. history, those interested may contact me off-list for the details. Tommy H IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4790. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and drugs From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2008 2:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A doctor came with a heavy sedative. Next day found me drinking both gin and sedative without the usual penalty. http://www.aabibliography.com/aapioneers/bills_story.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4791. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and drugs From: Corky . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2008 10:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jim S. Chapter 23 in "Pass It On" (pp. 368-377) refers to Bill's experiment with LSD. Corky F. - - - - This reference also sent in by Jim L. Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com) - - - - Original Message from: Jim S. To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 12:03 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W. and drugs Occasionally I hear or read that Bill W. took "a laundry list" of drugs during his sober years, yet I can't seem to get any details, except for the false statement that he "dropped acid for five years." Can anyone point me to this "laundry list" he used? Jim S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4792. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2008 11:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Research tells me that Bill Wilson lived at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn NY in 1938 and that, during that year, he dictated chapters of the Big Book to Ruth Hock in the Newark, New Jersey, offices of Honor Dealers at 17 Williams Street. Bill did not have a car, (nor, to my knowledge, did he have a friend with a car), so how did he get from the borough east of Manhattan to Newark, New Jersey, with some regularity? I have asked older New York friends and they have not been able to recall what forms of public transportation might have been in place at that time for such an extensive trip (according to Google Maps over 13 miles -- 10 of those in New Jersey). AND, if anyone does have an idea of how Bill might have accomplished this, can you estimate the time it might have taken and how much it might have cost? Best, Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4793. . . . . . . . . . . . History of the term Conference Approved From: chief_roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2008 10:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In diner discussion recently following a meeting the question was raised, when did we begin to use the term conference approved AA literature to separate it as different from central office publications and other material related to alcoholism or recovery? I searched the many postings on conference approved, have the Box 459 article explaining what is meant and not meant and discovered that the very first GSC Literature Committee Advisory Action in 1951 was "In future years, A.A. textbook literature should have Conference approval (Agenda Committee). Prior to the vote on this subject, it was pointed out that the adoption of the suggestion should not preclude the continued issuance of various printed documents by non-Foundation sources. No desire to review, edit or censor non- Foundation material is implied. The objective is to provide, in the future, a means of distinguishing Foundation literature from that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests." This seems the beginning of AA practice in separating literature. Anyone know how the term "conference approved" evolved into the AA lexicon? Roger W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4794. . . . . . . . . . . . AA success rate: revised/updated report From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2008 9:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII During the past week, members of the group have written in about the article "Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome Rates: Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation," with some corrections and also some sugges- tions for a slight revision here and there. The original version (see Message 4786) was put on line on January 6, 2008. The revised/updated report has now been placed on line as of this evening (January 14, 2008). It can be read as an Adobe PDF file: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf Or as an MS Word DOC file: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc Among other observations, this article notes how the A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys show that, of those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. And of those who are in their fourth month of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who have completed their initial ninety days, and have thereby demonstrated a certain willingness to really try the program), 56% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4795. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2008 6:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Old Bill: I really should not be writing this "answer," but I can't resist a little nostalgic ponti- ficating. Remember, this was in the LATE THIRTIES, a period before every man Jack and his son Joe had a car, maybe two or three, and the streets were manageable in a way people can hardly imagine today. But that is not really important in this connection. What is important is that the city of New York, all five boroughs, had a smashingly great, world-class, transport system and, as a late as my time (1950s), the unit cost for some incredibly long rides was a nickel, five cents, really. It may have been that Bill would have had to add a few cents for the jog into New Jersey, but I don't know. Never went there much myself except by ferry to Hoboken (5 cents) to have some early a.m. beers, because they opened early or never shut, I forget which. Mind you the whole thing from Brooklyn to Jersey would have taken but minutes. Some old-timer may know just how many. 13 miles is a hop skip and a jump. It was then, and should be now, but we have forgotten how it to do it. Get your car out and expect it take two hours, maybe more. Progress: the deepest illusion of Americans. Tom W. Odessa, TX - - - - From: "tommy" (fulmertr at etown.edu) The DeCamp bus line started in 1870 and is still running today from New York to New Jersey. web site Hope this helps, Tommy - - - - From: "Lee Nickerson" (snowlily at megalink.net) Bus: Brooklyn Bridge to Canal St., thru Holland Tunnel to Jersey City, north two miles or so to Newark. Probably 10 cents each way. - - - From: "johnlawlee" (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) I've asked myself the same question, having crossed from Manhattan to New Jersey hundreds of times, both drunk and sober. My speculation is that Hank Parkhurst drove Bill to New Jersey regularly, but not daily. Bill took the subway from Brooklyn Heights to Lower Manhattan. Hank lived in Montclair, a nice suburb of Newark. Hank would have likely driven to Lower Manhattan, picked up Bill, and gone either to Newark or Towns Hospital on Central Park West. The two of them were visiting Towns weekly, trying to save drunks. There were no PATH trains from New Jersey to the World Trade Center at that time. Bill could have taken a bus from Lower Manhattan through the Holland Tunnel to Newark, but the trip from Brooklyn to Newark would have taken a half day. There's always been the Main Line of the Pennsylvania Railroad from Pennsylvania Station to downtown Newark, but that would have involved numerous subway transfers. I suspect that Bill only went to the Newark office once or twice a week, and tried to dovetail those visits with 12th Step work with Hank. Bill was undoubtedly eager to move the office to Lower Manhattan, the location of his past glories. ***************************** Original message 4792 from (schaberg at aol.com) > Research tells me that Bill Wilson lived at > 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn NY in 1938 and > that, during that year, he dictated chapters > of the Big Book to Ruth Hock in the Newark, > New Jersey, offices of Honor Dealers at > 17 Williams Street. > > Bill did not have a car, (nor, to my knowledge, > did he have a friend with a car), so how did > he get from the borough east of Manhattan to > Newark, New Jersey, with some regularity? > > I have asked older New York friends and they > have not been able to recall what forms of > public transportation might have been in > place at that time for such an extensive > trip (according to Google Maps over 13 miles > -- 10 of those in New Jersey). > > AND, if anyone does have an idea of how Bill > might have accomplished this, can you estimate > the time it might have taken and how much it > might have cost? > > Best, > > Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4796. . . . . . . . . . . . AA success rate: 92% and 85% in Tennessee From: Wesley Brauer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2008 1:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My name is Wes, I reside in New York. But while living in Tennessee, a friend of mine conducted a survey of sober members in Area 64. His name is Scott L. He found that members that do service work have a recovery rate of 92% if you commit to 2 hours per month of a service commitment in the area, district or intergroup level. He also found that if you did a minimal 4 hrs per month at the home group level there was an 85% recovery rate! Wes Brauer IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4797. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book: the earliest printings From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/13/2008 1:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks Rick, I can complete a couple of gaps in your list. The 19th & 20th printings were made in 1965 & 1966. Also there were two printings in 1970: the 24th & 25th. Worth noting that the text in the 50th anniversary edition in 1996 is actually from the 1949 5th printing. [ photo at http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html ] I have all these books with the exception of the 10th, which I have been looking for for some seven years. Also I do not have the copy of the fifth printing run with an error on page 62, which I was only recently made aware of through being a member of this group. In fellowship - Dudley IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4798. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: History of the term Conference Approved From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2008 5:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Roger I love getting into these kind of AA history fragments. There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1 Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the first General Service Conference in 1951, but they passed quite a few advisory actions (16) all of which were passed unanimously. Among them was one that read "This Conference feels that in future years AA textbook literature should have Conference approval." There was also a notation that "Prior to the vote on this subject, it was pointed out that adoption of the suggestion would not preclude the continued issuance of various printed documents by non-Foundation sources. No desire to review, edit or censor non-Foundation material is, implied. The objective is to provide, in the future, a means of distin- guishing Foundation literature from that issued locally or by non-AA interests." The 1951 Conference did not have a Conference Committee on Literature. The four 1951 Conference Committees were: a "Committee on New Trustees," an "Advisory Committee on the Budget," a "Committee on Agenda," and a "Committee on the Conference Report." The Committee on Agenda presented the recommend- ation on Conference-approved literature (this is parenthetically noted in publication M-39 which records all the advisory actions that were passed by the Conferences). Based on the 1951 Conference recommendation, a Trustee's (or Foundation's) Committee on Literature was formed to make a report to the 1952 Conference recommending literature that should be retained and future literature items that would be needed. Bill W also reported on the literature projects he was engaged in. In 1952, Panel 2 (consisting of 38 additional delegates) joined with Panel 1 for the first Conference of all Delegates attending. Seven Conference Committees were formed (or renamed) as "Nominating," "Finance," "Literature," "Policy," "Agenda," "Trustees," and "Conference Report." Among the 1952 Conference Literature Committee's approved recommendations were: 1. That the report of the Foundation's Committee on Literature, together with Bill's report of his proposed program of activity be approved. 2. That the following be incorporated on all literature published by the Works Publishing, Inc: "Issued by Works Publishing, Inc., sole publishing agency of the Society of Alcoholics Anonymous. Approved by the General Service Conference of AA." 3. That this conference reaffirm the stand taken by the 1951 Conference as follows: "This conference has no desire to review, edit, or censor non-Foundation material. Our object is to provide, in the future, a means of distinguishing Foundation literature from that issued locally or by non-AA interests." By approving the Trustee's (or Foundation's) Committee recommendations for literature to be retained, the 1952 Conference retro- actively approved the Big Book and several existing pamphlets which included the long form of the Traditions. Bill's approved "program of activity" resulted in later publication of six Conference-approved books: **The 12&12 published in 1953 **The 3rd Legacy Manual published in 1955 - renamed "The AA Service Manual" in 1969 **The 2nd edition Big Book published in 1955 **AA Comes of Age published in 1957 **The 12 Concepts for World Service published in 1962 **The AA way of Life published in 1966 - renamed As Bill Sees It in 1975 From perusing the final reports, it seems that the terms "Conference-approved" or "Conference approval" were well seeded (not necessarily frequently stated) in the Conference vocabulary in 1951 and 1952. While neither term appeared in the 1953 Conference report, the 1954 report was quite another matter and included the term "Conference-approved" numerous times throughout the report. Cheers Arthur - - - - Message 4793 from (chief_roger at yahoo.com) History of the term Conference Approved In diner discussion recently following a meeting the question was raised, when did we begin to use the term conference approved AA literature to separate it as different from central office publications and other material related to alcoholism or recovery? I searched the many postings on conference approved, have the Box 459 article explaining what is meant and not meant and discovered that the very first GSC Literature Committee Advisory Action in 1951 was "In future years, A.A. textbook literature should have Conference approval (Agenda Committee). Prior to the vote on this subject, it was pointed out that the adoption of the suggestion should not preclude the continued issuance of various printed documents by non-Foundation sources. No desire to review, edit or censor non- Foundation material is implied. The objective is to provide, in the future, a means of distinguishing Foundation literature from that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests." This seems the beginning of AA practice in separating literature. Anyone know how the term "conference approved" evolved into the AA lexicon? Roger W. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4799. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Martin: heart attack From: Mike Custer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2008 4:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Last Thursday, Father Martin was hospitalized after experiencing a heart attack. To date, he is still hospitalized, however stable. In keeping with our belief that prayer works, join us in praying for his continued recovery. Email us at fathermartin@fathermartin.com your words of encouragement and well wishes. Although Father Martin is unable to read your message himself, Mae, Micki or another family member will read your message to him. Cards can be mailed to: 218 Fulford Ave Bel Air, Maryland 21014 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4800. . . . . . . . . . . . Extremely long early Big Book draft? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2008 11:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have seen references in accounts of the writing of the Big Book to an early draft that yielded a book three to four times the length of the one that was printed. The story goes that the draft was put out for comment and a number of persons said it was entirely too long so it was cut back to its present form, or close to it. Manuscripts that are close to what was printed survive. Indeed, they are available on eBay for modest sums, usually. My question to the group is how much of this story about an extremely long early draft is based on fact? If the story is generally accepted as true, why did none of the original much longer manuscripts survive? It seems to me if enough copies were put out for comment, some of them should have survived. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4801. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2008 6:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 4798 from "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) on "History of the term Conference Approved" >I love getting into these kind of AA history >fragments. > >There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1 >Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the >first General Service Conference in 1951, but >they passed quite a few advisory actions (16) >all of which were passed unanimously. > >Among them was one that read "This Conference >feels that in future years AA textbook >literature should have Conference approval." - - - - I love reading your contributions to this forum, Arthur! Did that panel define the term "A.A. textbook"? I look in the two books that I consider to be A.A. textbooks, the Big Book and the 12x12, and the term textbook is used exactly once, in the 12x12, and refers to school and medical textbooks. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4802. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Extremely long early Big Book draft? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2008 1:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Tom I've found only two references to the reputed drastic editing and paring of the original Big Book manuscript. One is in "Bill W" by Francis Hartigan (pg 126) the other in "Pass It On" (pg 204). Both references are sustained solely by anecdote and quite frankly I question their accuracy (although, among a number of fables in AA, it makes for enter- taining legend). "AA Comes of Age" is silent on the matter. If such a severe paring did occur I find it hard to believe that Bill W would have forgotten to mention it (he colorfully discusses the editing done to the personal stories and member reaction to it). The editing and paring was done by Tom Uzzell in February/March 1939. 400 copies of the manuscript had been distributed the prior January (1939) for review and comment. The version of the manuscript distributed, as you note, clearly did not have a page count that some attribute to it (i.e. 600 to 1200 pages). Uzzell did his editing after those review copies were returned. The mark-up master manuscript, delivered to Cornwall Press for creation of galley proofs, was a copy of the manuscript distributed in January 1939. Check the links below for some fascinating info and pictures: http://aaholygrail.com/3.html (very nice capsule history) http://aaholygrail.com/1.html (magnificent photos) My guess is that claims of a 600-1200 page manuscript serve to provide color but do not accurately tell the Big Book story. Cheers Arthur - - - - From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) The stories were edited severely, not the first eleven chapters. The surplusage was cut from the stories, not from the first eleven chapters of Alcoholics Anonymous. Very little was cut from the multilith version, which didn't include the stories [other than Bill's Story]. There were lots of phraseology changes from the multilith version, but very few deletions. The surgery was performed by professional writer "friends" of the First Hundred. - - - - Message 4800 from Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) asked the question: I have seen references in accounts of the writing of the Big Book to an early draft that yielded a book three to four times the length of the one that was printed. The story goes that the draft was put out for comment and a number of persons said it was entirely too long so it was cut back to its present form, or close to it. Manuscripts that are close to what was printed survive. Indeed, they are available on eBay for modest sums, usually. My question to the group is how much of this story about an extremely long early draft is based on fact? If the story is generally accepted as true, why did none of the original much longer manuscripts survive? It seems to me if enough copies were put out for comment, some of them should have survived. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4803. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2008 3:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Jared Lobdell about Bill W's travels from Brooklyn to Newark, A response to: "johnlawlee" (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) - - - - JOHN: There were no PATH trains from New Jersey to the World Trade Center at that time. - - - - JARED: It's true the lines were not called PATH and the WTC didn't exist in the 1930s, but the H&M (now PATH) lines between Hudson Terminal (the WTC location) and Newark were in fact opened in 1911 and were certainly in operation in the 1930s. - - - - JOHN: While it is physically possible to travel by subways from Brooklyn to Newark, I can't see Bill Wilson making that daily commute. Bill was enthralled with Manhattan, and his enthusiasm for Honor Dealers car wax was tepid at best. Hank, Bill and Ruth were crowded into a hole-in-the-wall office on William Street, Newark after being evicted from a larger suite in the same building. The better view is that Bill bounced into the Newark office once or twice a week to give dictation to Ruth on Honor Dealers or AA issues. Mitchell K's book, How It Worked, indicates that "Bill was met at the train station in New York by Hank P...." upon returning from Akron with approval for the book project and chain of hospitals [p.90]. That would have been Penn Station in Manhattan. Susan Cheever thinks it's possible to take a train from Grand Central to Akron, but everyone else would have departed from Penn Station, the magnificent work of McKim Mead [see Cheever at p.131]. - - - - JARED: Not only physically possible (if we count the H&M "tubes" as a "subway" -- though in fact to Newark they used the Pennsy track past Manhattan Transfer), but in fact the most convenient way from BH to Newark by public transportation, tho' I agree Bill would have preferred to be driven, and that -- tho' a "commute" -- it certainly wasn't something Bill did every day. I still can't agree with the implication of your original statement that "there were no PATH trains from New Jersey to the World Trade Center at that time" -- tho' as I noted it's technically true since it wasn't called PATH and there was no WTC complex. On your other point, evidence suggests to me that the principal NY-Akron service was indeed to and from Grand Central on the NYCentral, not Penn Station on the Pennsy. The Broadway Ltd (the chief Pennsy NY-Chicago train) had as its stops (in the 1930s) New York Penn Station, Newark Penn Station, North Philadelphia, Paoli, Harrisburg, Baker Street Station (Fort Wayne), Englewood Union Station, Chicago Union Station (it hit Cleveland in the very early hours of the morning). There were Cleveland (and Pittsburgh) stops on trains running eastward to NY (Penn Station), on the old Cleveland & Pittsburgh line, but the Akron Pennsy station was part of the Cleveland, Akron & Columbus (N/S) route and not on the main C&P, so far as I know. It's true that from 1923 to 1926 the B&O operated the Capitol Limited (through Akron) into Penn Station, but after 1926 into the Jersey Central terminal at Jersey City. So I can't say I agree that "everyone else" would have gone from NY Penn Station to Akron (unless I've overlooked a RR that served Akron and came into Penn Station, which is possible). Do we know that Hank in fact usually drove into NYC? -- he could easily have taken the DL&W into Hoboken and the "tubes" over. -- Jared IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4804. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2008 10:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Comments from Patricia, Jenny A., and Arthur S. What did they mean by the phrase "AA textbook literature" in the conference advisory action passed in 1951? - - - - Responding to message 4798 from "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) ... the first General Service Conference in 1951 ... passed quite a few advisory actions (16) all of which were passed unanimously. Among them was one that read "This Confer- ence feels that in future years AA textbook literature should have Conference approval." - - - - From: Patricia (pdixonrae at yahoo.com) On the dust cover of my second, third and fourth edition it says this book is the basic text for Alcoholics Anonymous. Patricia - - - - From: jenny andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Bill W describes 12 Steps and 12 Traditions as "our textbook". (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, Appendix B: Why Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonymous). The dust cover of the fourth edition of the Big Book says it is "the basic text for Alcoholics Anonymous." Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines a text as, first, "the original written or printed words and form of a literary work." For textbook it says "a book containing a presentation of the principles of a subject." - - - - From: "Arthur S" Hey Tom "AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are terms that seemed to be well-seeded. My sense is that the terms were initially used generically early in AA history and over time came to signify the Big Book pages numbered 1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the 1st edition). In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12: "One more noteworthy event marked this period of quiet: the publication of A.A.'s Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume is strictly a textbook which explains A.A.'s twenty-four basic principles and their application, in detail and with great care." On page 154, Bill refers to the Big Book: "Suppose our embryo book were someday to become the chief text for our fellowship." Further Big Book references: On page 162: Akronites like Paul and Dick S. liked the new steps very much. As the remainder of the book text developed, based on the Twelve Steps, they continued to report their approval. On page 164: "We had not gone much farther with the text of the book when it was evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a story or case history section." [... also ...] "It was felt also that the story section could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the text itself might not. [... also ...] "The cries of the anguished edited tale- tellers finally subsided and the story section of the book was complete in the latter part of January, 1939. So at last was the text." On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepub- lication copy of the text and some of the stories and try the book out on our own membership and on every kind and class of person that has anything to do with drunks?" On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist of Montclair, New Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our book was too full of the words "you" and "must." [... also ...] "To make this shift throughout the text of the book would be a big job." On pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big Book will soon be published in Norwegian. Because of the language similarity, the Danes and the Swedes will also be able to read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian. On page 220: "Everyone here at St. Louis knows that we have just published the second edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you have it in your hands already. Today as we pass A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quite fitting that this long-pondered edition is now in readiness for the future. The scope and power of its case history section has been increased, but of course the old familiar text of the book stands unchanged." On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book is a text aimed to show an alcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he may follow to effect his own recovery." Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4805. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob''s obsession From: tsirish1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2008 12:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard for years in meetings the claim that Dr. Bob never got over his mental obsession to drink until the day he died. If that is true, where is that statement written? Thanks, BB Tim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4806. . . . . . . . . . . . Confusion on H. F. Heard From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2008 10:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have recently seen on a couple of AA-related history sites a statement that H. F. Heard was a pen-name for Aldous Huxley. In fact H. F. Heard was Henry FitzGerald Heard (1889-1971) who also wrote as Gerald Heard. He was a friend of Aldous Huxley (and of Bill Wilson) but he certainly was not Aldous Huxley. I thought perhaps this ought to be noted on the HistoryLovers website. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4807. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook (correction) From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2008 7:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Laurie A kindly pointed out to me that I goofed on an AA Comes of Age page reference. The ending citation referring to pages 315-316 are incorrect and should read 307-308. Thanks Laurie! Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: Arthur S [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:23 PM To: 'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com' Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook Hey Tom "AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are terms that seemed to be well-seeded. My sense is that the terms were initially used generically early in AA history and over time came to signify the Big Book pages numbered 1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the 1st ed). In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12: "One more noteworthy event marked this period of quiet: the publication of A.A.'s Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume is strictly a textbook which explains A.A.'s twenty-four basic principles and their application, in detail and with great care." On page 154, Bill refers to the Big Book: "Suppose our embryo book were someday to become the chief text for our fellowship." Further Big Book references: On page 162: Akronites like Paul and Dick S. liked the new steps very much. As the remainder of the book text developed, based on the Twelve Steps, they continued to report their approval. On page 164: "We had not gone much farther with the text of the book when it was evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a story or case history section." [... also ...] "It was felt also that the story section could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the text itself might not. [... also ...] "The cries of the anguished edited taletellers finally subsided and the story section of the book was complete in the latter part of January, 1939. So at last was the text." On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepublication copy of the text and some of the stories and try the book out on our own membership and on every kind and class of person that has anything to do with drunks?" On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist of Montclair, New Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our book was too full of the words "you" and "must." [... also ...] "To make this shift throughout the text of the book would be a big job." On pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big Book will soon be published in Norwegian. Because of the language similarity, the Danes and the Swedes will also be able to read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian. On page 220: "Everyone here at St. Louis knows that we have just published the second edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you have it in your hands already. Today as we pass A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quite fitting that this long-pondered edition is now in readiness for the future. The scope and power of its case history section has been increased, but of course the old familiar text of the book stands unchanged." On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book is a text aimed to show an alcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he may follow to effect his, own recovery." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hickcox Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook Message 4798 from "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) on "History of the term Conference Approved" >I love getting into these kind of AA history >fragments. > >There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1 >Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the >first General Service Conference in 1951, but >they passed quite a few advisory actions (16) >all of which were passed unanimously. > >Among them was one that read "This Conference >feels that in future years AA textbook >literature should have Conference approval." - - - - I love reading your contributions to this forum, Arthur! Did that panel define the term "A.A. textbook"? I look in the two books that I consider to be A.A. textbooks, the Big Book and the 12x12, and the term textbook is used exactly once, in the 12x12, and refers to school and medical textbooks. Tommy H in Baton Rouge Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4808. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr Bob''s obsession From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2008 6:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII BB Tom, Open your BB. In Doctor Bob's Nightmare (pg 181, 3rd edition), he explains, "Unlike most of our crowd, I did not get over my craving for liquor much during the first two and one-half years of abstinence. It was almost always with me" Here is your answer straight from the Doc's mouth: for "the first 2-1/2 years," NOT "until the day he died." So it would seem that this statement that you have heard at meetings is untrue. Jay - - - - Message #4805 from (tsirish1 at yahoo.com) I have heard for years in meetings the claim that Dr. Bob never got over his mental obsession to drink until the day he died. If that is true, where is that statement written? Thanks, BB Tim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4809. . . . . . . . . . . . Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2008 10:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Big Book pages 142-143 Dear Glenn I hope that you are keeping well. With regards to the above pages from To Employers it states, "For most alcoholics who are drinking,or who are just getting over a spree, a certain amount of physical treatment is desirable, even imperative...If you propose such a procedure to him, it may be necessary to advance the cost of treatment, but we believe it should be made plain to him that any expense will later be deducted from his pay." One of our group wished to know where the idea that your employee would pay back for any of his medical treatment came from. Thanking you in anticipation Gentle blessings Leah - - - - From the moderator: I'm going to ask some of our group who know more about the history of employee medical and health insurance programs in the United States if they can tell us more about what it was like in 1939, when the Big Book was published. My father told me that the railroads had railroad doctors back then, who would saw off your leg if you were a railroad worker who got your leg crushed between two couplers. But do any of the people in our group know if even that was common? There were a few places in the U.S. by 1939 where employees could pay for medical or hospitalization insurance, but this was not widespread or common, to the best of my knowledge. And the problem with alcoholism was that this was regarded by most people as a moral failing, which should simply be treated punitively. Just fire him! Or throw him in jail. That was what most people would have said. So even the very few people who had some kind of medical or hospitalization insurance in 1939 would not have been able to use it for alcohol-related problems. The disease concept of alcoholism was introduced in an attempt to get medical treatment provided for alcoholics when they needed it (for detoxing for example). But in the U.S. in 1939, the idea that an employer might advance money to an employee to go into a hospital to detox (even if the employee paid the money back afterwards) was a quite radical new idea. To the best of my knowledge anyway. Who in our group knows more about employee health benefits (if any) and how they were handled in the U.S. back in the 1930's? Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) - - - - P.S. And for the sake of the younger folks in the U.K. and places like that, we need to remember that even in the U.K., the National Health Service did not come along until 1948. See the Wikipedia article on "Health care" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care "In most developed countries and many developing countries health care is provided to everyone regardless of their ability to pay. The National Health Service in the United Kingdom was the world's first universal health care system provided by government. It was established in 1948 by Clement Atlee's Labour government. Alternatively, compulsory government funded health insurance with nominal fees can be provided, as with Italy, which, according to the World Health Organisation, has the second-best health system in the world. Other examples are Medicare in Australia, established in the 1970s by the Labor government, and by the same name Medicare was established in Canada between 1966 and 1984. Universal health care contrasts to the systems like health care in the United States or South Africa." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4810. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2008 7:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Comments from Mitchell K. and Bill Lash: From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) While the textbook defining continues, the book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is and has been identified as an interpretive commentary written by a co-founder. If the 12&12 is a textbook by virtue of giving information, The Little Red Book is also a textbook of equal value and validity. The description given by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. in the Conference-Approved book Alcoholics Anonymous is, once again -- an interpretive commentary written by a co-founder. The 12&12 is not THE program. It is a commentary ON the program. If the fact that Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr. Harry T. wrote the book gives it validity, the fact that Dr. Bob had a great deal of input into the writing of The Little Red Book gives it equal validity. - - - - From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) And please don't miss that the foreword in the 12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' became the basic text of the Fellowship, and it still is." Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4811. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2008 3:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Folks ! I am one of those "old" ones who lived (as a child) in the early 1930s living in a small town in Vermont. My father worked in several small but national branches of industry. "Benefits" was not a term known then. Pay was handled in cash in a small envelope. There was nothing held out for taxes and there never was an accounting (by the employer) for wages paid annually. I can only assume that the instance cited in the Big Book might occur on a very individual basis, and perhaps only as a speculation rather than a common practice. The period of the Great Depression (1930s) was a very unstable time, and work, any work, was usually hard to come by. As Glenn remarks, public attitude was callous or harsh regarding alcoholics, let alone thinking of offering "help" or giving "benefits." Regards to all Les - - - - "flat412acrehouse" wrote: > > Big Book pages 142-143 > > Dear Glenn > > I hope that you are keeping well. > > With regards to the above pages from To > Employers it states, "For most alcoholics who > are drinking,or who are just getting over a > spree, a certain amount of physical treatment > is desirable, even imperative...If you propose > such a procedure to him, it may be necessary > to advance the cost of treatment, but we > believe it should be made plain to him that > any expense will later be deducted from > his pay." > > One of our group wished to know where the > idea that your employee would pay back for > any of his medical treatment came from. > > Thanking you in anticipation > Gentle blessings > Leah IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4812. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of Victor Kitchen From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2008 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Photos of Victor C. Kitchen (from his family and other sources) have now been collected at: http://hindsfoot.org/kchange3.html http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html Vic was a member of the Oxford Group in New York City and a friend of Bill Wilson's when Bill joined the Oxford Group. Dr. Bob may have met him too, when Vic visited Ohio as part of an Oxford Group team. Vic wrote an important Oxford Group work, "I Was a Pagan." Vic (a New York advertising executive) eventu- ally became a full time worker for all the rest of his life for the Oxford Group and its successor Moral Re-Armament. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4813. . . . . . . . . . . . First woman in AA? From: David LeBlanc . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 11:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A question came up in my group. Who was the first woman to join AA and when did she join? Can anyone help? - - - - From the moderator: if you go to our Message Board at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages And do a search for "first woman" in quotation marks, you will see that there is a lot of debate about who holds this honor. Part of this is a matter of definition. Do you just want to know the first woman who tried the program, even if she only stayed sober for two or three weeks, and then went back out and never came back? Message 3588 from Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) says (accurately I believe) that if we want to ask who was the first woman who joined AA and gained long term sobriety, that the top two candidates are: Sylvia Kauffmann, whose story in the Big Book was the "Keys to the Kingdom" Marty Mann, whose story in the Big Book was "Women Suffer Too" Nancy Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, put together (with the help of other members of this group) a set of short biographies of the people whose stories got in the Big Book. You can read Nancy's account of both Sylvia's life and Marty's life (with photographs of both women) in that set of biographies. This appears in more than one place online, but one place is Al W.'s West Baltimore AA website (Al and Nancy were very good friends, and Al was one of her greatest personal supporters): http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm If you want a fuller account of Mrs. Marty Mann's life, the full biography is Sally Brown and David R. Brown, "A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alco- holics Anonymous (Center City, Minnesota: Hazelden, 2001). There is also interesting material about Marty Mann in passing in both of these books: http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4814. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2008 5:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII >From: Bill Lash >(barefootbill at optonline.net) > >And please don't miss that the foreword in the >12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics >Anonymous' became the basic text of the >Fellowship, and it still is." - - - - That part of the foreword has stuck out to me for some time. The foreword itself has a lot of useful information. Do we know who wrote it? The language says that the Big Book was not written as "the basic text of the Fellowship" but the book became that at some point down the road. My question would be, what point was that and what are the references for that particular date? Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4815. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook (correction) From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 6:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We should note that the quotation from pp 307-8 in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age is from an appendix - a paper titled "A new approach to psychotherapy in chonic alcoholism" by William Silkworth, a non-AA member comment- ing about the Big Book. Laurie A. - - - - To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:41:02 -0600Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook (correction) Hi Laurie A kindly pointed out to me that I goofed on an AA Comes of Age page reference.The ending citation referring to pages 315-316 are incorrect and should read 307-308.Thanks Laurie!CheersArthur-----Original Message-----From: Arthur S [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:23 PMTo: 'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com'Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbookHey Tom"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are terms that seemed to bewell-seeded. My sense is that the terms were initially used genericallyearly in AA history and over time came to signify the Big Book pagesnumbered 1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the 1st ed).In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12: "One morenoteworthy event marked this period of quiet: the publication of A.A.'sTwelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume is strictly atextbook which explains A.A.'s twenty-four basic principles and theirapplication, in detail and with great care."On page 154, Bill refers to the Big Book: "Suppose our embryo book weresomeday to become the chief text for our fellowship."Further Big Book references:On page 162: Akronites like Paul and Dick S. liked the new steps very much.As the remainder of the book text developed, based on the Twelve Steps, theycontinued to report their approval.On page 164: "We had not gone much farther with the text of the book when itwas evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a storyor case history section." [... also ...] "It was felt also that the storysection could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the textitself might not. [... also ...] "The cries of the anguished editedtaletellers finally subsided and the story section of the book was completein the latter part of January, 1939. So at last was the text."On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepublication copy of the text andsome of the stories and try the book out on our own membership and on everykind and class of person that has anything to do with drunks?"On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist ofMontclair, New Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our book was too fullof the words "you" and "must." [... also ...] "To make this shift throughoutthe text of the book would be a big job."On pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big Book will soon be published inNorwegian. Because of the language similarity, the Danes and the Swedes willalso be able to read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.On page 220: "Everyone here at St. Louis knows that we have just publishedthe second edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you have it inyour hands already. Today as we pass A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quitefitting that this long-pondered edition is now in readiness for the future.The scope and power of its case history section has been increased, but ofcourse the old familiar text of the book stands unchanged."On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book is a text aimed to show analcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he mayfollow to effect his, own recovery."CheersArthur-----Original Message-----From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom HickcoxSent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12 PMTo: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comSubject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbookMessage 4798 from "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) on "History of the term Conference Approved">I love getting into these kind of AA history>fragments.>>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the>first General Service Conference in 1951, but>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)>all of which were passed unanimously.>>Among them was one that read "This Conference>feels that in future years AA textbook>literature should have Conference approval."- - - -I love reading your contributions to this forum, Arthur!Did that panel define the term "A.A. textbook"?I look in the two books that I consider to be A.A. textbooks, the Big Book and the 12x12, and the term textbook is used exactly once, in the 12x12, and refers to school and medical textbooks.Tommy H in Baton RougeYahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4816. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 11:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ditto to everything said by Mitch and Bill. Nowhere in the Big Book does it say that it's a text book. It says: "Because this book has become the Basic text for our society..." I think the key word here is basic (i.e. the number 1, fundamental, main book used to convey the story of how the first 40 members recovered from alcoholism.) In the 12&12 pg. 17 Bill states "When pub- lished in 1939 the book Alcoholics Anonymous became the basic text of our society and still is the purpose of this present volume (the 12&12) is to broaden and deepen our understanding of the steps as first written in the earlier work. I would imagine(who knows?) that on pg. 219 of AACOA that Bill is intending the 12/12 to instruct the (oftimes reluctant)fellowship at large about the spiritual and practical dimensions of the traditions and how they complement and reinforce one another. The Conference itself has never to my knowledge refered to the 12/12 as a textbook. THANKS - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > > Comments from Mitchell K. and Bill Lash: > > From: "Mitchell K." > > (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) > > While the textbook defining continues, the > book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is > and has been identified as an interpretive > commentary written by a co-founder. If the > 12&12 is a textbook by virtue of giving > information, The Little Red Book is also a > textbook of equal value and validity. > > The description given by Alcoholics Anonymous > World Services, Inc. in the Conference-Approved > book Alcoholics Anonymous is, once again -- > an interpretive commentary written by a > co-founder. > > The 12&12 is not THE program. It is a > commentary ON the program. If the fact that > Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr. Harry T. > wrote the book gives it validity, the fact > that Dr. Bob had a great deal of input into > the writing of The Little Red Book gives it > equal validity. > > - - - - > > From: Bill Lash > (barefootbill at optonline.net) > > And please don't miss that the foreword in the > 12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics > Anonymous' became the basic text of the > Fellowship, and it still is." > > Just Love, > > Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4817. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook From: Dean at ComPlanners . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 11:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHistoryLovers, In case it has been missed ... The dust jacket of the Fourth Edition has this statement: "This is the Fourth Edition of the Big Book, the Basic Text for Alcoholics Anonymous." Note that the statement includes the entire book. A Bill W. quote (from a 1953 letter) appears on the inside flap: "The story section of the Big Book is far more important than most of us think. It is our principle means of identifying with the reader outside A.A.; it is the written equivalent of hearing speakers at an A.A. meeting; it is our show window of results." Dean IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4818. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: the phrase AA textbook From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 1:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a great deal of "AA theater" in the way some choose to officiously portray the Big Book and ordain it to a hyper-hallowed station on the altar of sobriety. I love the Big Book, study it, and use it for 12th Step work. I also use the 12&12 and consider it a necessary companion to the Big Book given the minimal amount of text in the Big Book on several of the 12 Steps. The 12 Steps and their explanation occurred late in the production of the Big Book and it shows. I believe the 12&12 was intended to compensate for this and dislike seeing the 12&12 directly or indirectly trivialized in comparison to the Big Book. It's been my understanding (and practice) to refer to a particular portion of the Big Book as the "basic text" of the book. That portion is essentially defined by what is included in the abridged edition. It is also the portion of the Big Book that several Conferences repeatedly put off-limits for any changes during the development of the 4th edition. This does not mean that the terms "basic text" and "textbook" cannot be used to generically describe other literature works. In fact, historically, both terms have been used by Bill W and the Conference to do just that. In his January 1961 letter to Dr Jung, Bill W wrote "There immediately came to me an illumination of enormous impact and dimension, something which I have since tried to describe in the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' and also in 'AA Comes of Age,' basic texts which I am sending to you." The 1953 final Conference report, under Literature Committee recommendations, noted "Ask the Delegates to weigh this question for submission to the 1954 Conference: Does the Conference feel it should depart from its purely textbook program by printing non-textbook literature such as the 24 Hour Book of Meditation?" The 12&12 was introduced at the 1953 Conference so it seems that it was considered a part of the "purely textbook program" as were the rest of Bill's literature projects approved by the 1952 General Service Conference. My impression is that the terms "text book" and/or "basic text" generically applied to any book that explained AA's principles (the Steps, Traditions and later the Concepts). Terminology can either illuminate or obfuscate. Please see the embedded replies below and make your own judgment: ------------------------- Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook -- Comments from Mitchell K. and Bill Lash: From: "Mitchell K." Comment 1: While the textbook defining continues, the book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is and has been identified as an interpretive commentary written by a co-founder. If the 12&12 is a textbook by virtue of giving information, The Little Red Book is also a textbook of equal value and validity. Reply 1: Identified by whom and when and by what authority? In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12 with the statement: "One more noteworthy event marked this period of quiet: the publication of AA's Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume is strictly a textbook which explains AA's twenty-four basic principles and their application, in detail and with great care." The 1952 final Conference report noted that Bill W identified his plans for what became the Steps portion of the 12&12 with a description of it being "A series of orderly, point-by-point essays on the Twelve Steps." The 1952 final Conference report further noted that "Bill exhibited to the Conference a sample copy of 'Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,' his first full-length commentary on AA since the writing of The Big Book." The statement seems to also describe the Big Book as a "full-length commentary" (which takes nothing at all away from the Big Book). Comment 2: The description given by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. in the Conference-Approved book Alcoholics Anonymous is, once again -- an interpretive commentary written by a co-founder. Reply 2: All editions of the Big Book are silent on the 12&12. Can a specific source reference be provided so that what is cited can be verified? The 2007 Conference-Approved Literature Catalog describes the 12&12 with the statement: "Bill W's 24 essays on the Steps and the Traditions discuss the principles of individual recovery and group unity." The AA.org web site description is "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (192 pages) Published in 1953, this book contains a detailed interpretation of principles of personal recovery and group survival by Bill W, co-founder of the Fellow- ship." It doesn't seem appropriate to me to trivialize the 12&12 with the rubric "interpretive commentary by a co-founder." The 12&12 was a major and important work and a very deliberate follow-on work to the Big Book to explain the 12 Steps (and Traditions) in detail. Comment 3: The 12&12 is not THE program. It is a commentary ON the program. If the fact that Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr. Harry T. wrote the book gives it validity, the fact that Dr. Bob had a great deal of input into the writing of The Little Red Book gives it equal validity. Reply 3: The attempted semantic distinctions of uppercase "THE" and "ON" are fatuous and absurd. The 12 Steps are the principles of AA's program of recovery. Both the Big Book and 12&12 provide "basic text" (i.e. "the main body of a book") to explain those principles. Bill W is credited as the primary author of both works (and as a rule received assistance from others in all his writing projects). The 12&12 does a far better job explaining Steps 6, 7 and 8 with its 20 pages (pgs 63-82) of "interpretive commentary by a co-founder" than do the 3 paragraphs of "THE" program in the Big Book (pg 76). It seems fairly obvious, and common sense, that the 12&12 and Big Book are companion works in an evolutionary sequence of accumulated experience. When the Big Book was published in 1939 Bill W was 4 years sober, there were 2 groups and around 100 members. When the 12&12 was published in 1953 Bill was 19 years sober, there were an estimated 6,000 groups and 128,000 members. It suggests to me that a lot more experience went into writing the 12&12 than the Big Book (I hope that doesn't consti- tute AA heresy or apostasy). From: Bill Lash Comment: And please don't miss that the foreword in the 12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' became the basic text of the Fellowship, and it still is." Reply: Please also don't miss the sentence that immediately follows the one cited that states "This present volume (i.e. the 12&12) proposes to broaden and deepen the understanding of the Twelve Steps as first written in the earlier work." (i.e. the Big Book) Also it seems relevant to cite the last para- graph of the 12&12 Foreword (pg 18) which states "It is hoped that this volume will afford all who read it a close-up view of the principle that made Alcoholics Anonymous what it is." Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4819. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s Continuing Temptation From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 12:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Dr. Bob's Last Major Talk, December 1948: "The fact that my sobriety has been maintained continuously for 13½ years doesn't allow me to think that I am necessarily any further away from my next drink than any of you people. I'm still very human, and I still think a double Scotch would taste awfully good. If it wouldn't produce disastrous results, I might try it. I don't know. I have no reason to think that it would taste any different - but I have no legitimate reason to believe that the results would be any different, either." This does suggest that he continued to think about drinking. - - - - From: "johnlawlee" (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) Many of the people posting messages on this topic are confusing the term "obsession" with a "craving" or urge to drink. An obsession is an idea that blocks all other ideas. If an alcoholic gets an obsession to drink, he always drinks. Doctor Bob's last obsession to drink was in June of 1935. He reported thoughts of drinking in his 1939 First Edition story, but never had an obsession to drink after June of 1935. The difference between a craving and an obsession is explained on pages xxviii, xxix and xxx of The Doctor's Opinion in the Big Book. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4820. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2008 7:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the early days in Cleveland, if one could not afford treatment (which equated only to detox in an "approved" hospital) there was the AA Association. Members laid out the cost of detox and the individual paid them back. Usually, if a prospect was in danger of losing their job or already had lost their job, the local AA members visited the employer and due to their overwhelming success and reputation, the employer quite often allowed the alcoholic employee to continue working after detox and attending meetings. There was a connection with the employer, the courts, the hospitals, etc. and AA members so that wages could have been garnished if the individual didn't pay the cost back to the AAA so that others might also benefit. Records from Cleveland showed balance sheets from the association showing who was in the hospital, how much they owed, who paid back, etc. Not sure if this was what the book referred to but I would think that the practice wasn't unknown in other places. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4821. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Arthur S. and Bob S. Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland), Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron) - - - - David L. asked: A question came up in my group. Who was the first woman to join AA and when did she join? - - - - From: "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) The first woman member was Florence R (from NY). Her 1st edition Big Book story is "A Feminine Victory." She relocated to the Washington DC/Baltimore area. Sadly she died drunk in the early 1940s (a possible suicide). Fitz M identified her in the morgue. Arthur - - - - From: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) Who was first, Jane or Florence? Both Florence Rankin (New York) and Jane S. (Cleveland) came to AA in 1937, but I have not been able to discover which was first to join AA or, of course, the Oxford Group as it was then. This humorous story is from Pages 122 & 123 from Dr. Bob & The Good Oldtimers: Word of Akron's "not-drinking-liquor club" had already spread to nearby towns, such as Kent and Canton, and it was probably early 1937 when a few prospects started drifting down from Cleveland. In the beginning, it was in twos and threes. (By 1939, there were two carloads.) Bob E. remembered that Jane S. was making the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T. Henry's in 1937, about the same time he started. Colorful and vivacious, with a fine sense of humor, Jane is said to be the first woman in the area to have attained any length of sobriety - meaning a few months. Oldtimers long remembered her story of being left unattended by her husband to supervise the wallpapering of a room. Trouble was, she and the paperhanger started drinking. Each time he began to hang a roll of paper, one or the other would walk into it. When her husband came home that evening, both Jane and the paperhanger had passed out, surrounded by empty bottles (as her husband told her later) and all bound up in shredded paper and waste. - - - - Sylvia Kauffmann got sober in September of 1939 in Chicago and, so far as I can find, stayed sober till she died. At any rate, she was credited having the longest uninterrupted sobriety of any woman in AA. I believe that Ethel Macy, who wrote "From Farm To City," was the first lady to join AA at Akron (May, 1941). She remained sober till she died (April 1963). Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4822. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland), Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron), Mary Campbell (from somewhere in the South), Lil (in Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241), and of course Marty Mann, are all names of women which appear in accounts of the early AA period. - - - - Message 3169 from "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3169 The name Jane S. does not appear in any of the early Cleveland archival materials or dozens of meeting rosters or histories of all the original groups compiled by Norm E., the recording statistician from the Cleveland Central Committee in the early 1940's. - - - - Message 4543 from "t" (tcumming at nc.rr.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4543 "First 100" [list] has the name Jane Sturden on it. - - - - Message 3132 from (ArtSheehan at msn.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3132 The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA (in 1935) was the legendary "Lil" of the "Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241). "Lil" reputedly sobered up outside AA. However, it is said she never got far enough along to attend a meeting. "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides Jane S' relative dry date through old-timer Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came into AA in February 1937" (then on pg 122) "remembered that Jane S was making the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in 1937, about the same time he started" [Jane's trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241 later indicates that Jane was the wife of a "vice-president of a large steel company." The key words in her relative dry date are "about the same time" [relative to February 1937]. I can't find a hard written reference to confirm it, but sources I trust for credibility indicate that Jane S stayed sober for only a few months. "Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it states "The name 'One Hundred Men' fell by the wayside because of objections of Florence R, at that time the only female member." It's odd that Jane S' name isn't also mentioned as a female member "at that time." Is it possible that that she had already fallen off the wagon and departed? The edited story section of the Big Book was completed "in the latter part of January 1939" (re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of the manuscript was likely completed in the latter part of March (the book was published April 4, 1939). Florence R, states in her story "... The drinking ended the morning I got there ..." ["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd time]. She then later states "That was more than a year ago." In manuscript versions, circulating around the internet, the sentence read "That was several years ago" which is quite obviously wrong. The key words in her relative dry date are "more than a year ago" [but from when?]. So how to do the reckoning to establish female member primacy? It seems to be a contest between the precision inherent in the relative values denoted by "about" or "more than." Did Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall on February 1st or 28th (that's almost a month's difference) or February 14 (to split the difference)or could late January (31st) or early March (1st)? Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year ago" relative to late January 1939 (when the edited stories were completed) or mid to late March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If it is March 1939, then Jane S may have primacy (and that is only a "may have"). If "more than" is relative to January or February 1939 then Florence R has primacy or perhaps it's a tie. The problem is does "more than" mean a day, a week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or 14 months or what? So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence. Why? Florence stayed dry for over a year. Jane S lasted for a few months. If it's mainly about when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats them both. If the elapsed time before they returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member of AA and should be a founder. - - - - Message 3132 from: "mertonmm3" (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3132 Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman (Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became number 2. - - - - Message 3112 from "Sally Brown" (rev.sally at worldnet.att.net) Still another was Mary Campbell, from somewhere in the South, I believe. Dave and I don't know her sobriety date or when she arrived in AA, but it was before April 1939 when Marty Mann went from Blythewood to her first AA meeting, held at the Wilsons' home in Brooklyn. Mary actually visited Marty at Blythewood. She relapsed in 1944, then returned to AA and stayed sober until she died in the 1990s. - - - - Message 589 from t Email address is now (tcumming at nc.rr.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/589 People In AA History - Part 4 I thru M Jane S. - 1st woman Akron area maintain few months sobriety, married vice president large steel company (D 122,241) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4823. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? (Florence R vs Jane S) From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From message # 3132 The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA (in 1935) was the legendary "Lil" of the "Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241). "Lil" reputedly sobered up outside AA. However, it is said she never got far enough along to attend a meeting. I'm not sure if the dry dates of Florence R or Jane S can be stated with certainty or precision. Take for example Dr Bob's stated dry date (June 10, 1935)and the starting date of the AMA convention in Atlantic City, when he had his last binge for a few days (also June 10, 1935). "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides Jane S' relative dry date through old-timer Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came into AA in February 1937" (then on pg 122) "remembered that Jane S was making the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in 1937, about the same time he started" [Jane's trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241 later indicates that Jane was the wife of a "vice-president of a large steel company." The key words in her relative dry date are "about the same time" [relative to February 1937]. I can't find a hard written reference to confirm it, but sources I trust for credibility indicate that Jane S stayed sober for only a few months. "Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it states "The name 'One Hundred Men' fell by the wayside because of objections of Florence R, at that time the only female member." It's odd that Jane S' name isn't also mentioned as a female member "at that time." Is it possible that that she had already fell off the wagon and departed? The edited story section of the Big Book was completed "in the latter part of January 1939" (re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of the manuscript was likely completed in the latter part of March (the book was published April 4, 1939). Florence R, states in her story "... The drinking ended the morning I got there ..." ["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd time]. She then later states "That was more than a year ago." In manuscript versions, circulating around the internet, the sentence read "That was several years ago" which is quite obviously wrong. The key words in her relative dry date are "more than a year ago" [but from when?]. So how to do the reckoning to establish female member primacy? It seems to be a contest between the precision inherent in the relative values denoted by "about" or "more than." Is Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall on February 1st or 28th (that's almost a month's difference) or February 14 (to split the difference)or could late January (31st) or early March (1st)? Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year ago" relative to late January 1939 (when the edited stories were completed) or mid to late March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If it is March 1939, then Jane S may have primacy (and that is only a "may have"). If "more than" is relative to January or February 1939 then Florence R has primacy or perhaps it's a tie. The problem is does "more than" mean a day, a week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or 14 months or what? So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence. Why? Florence stayed dry for over a year. Jane S lasted for a few months. If it's mainly about when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats them both. If the elapsed time before they returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member of AA and should be a founder. However, it probably boils down to "truth by choice." In any event the matter is not by any means certain. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Stonebraker Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:24 AM To: AA HistoryLovers; MuncieAA@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: First woman in AA? From Arthur S. and Bob S. Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland), Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron) - - - - David L. asked: A question came up in my group. Who was the first woman to join AA and when did she join? - - - - From: "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) The first woman member was Florence R (from NY). Her 1st edition Big Book story is "A Feminine Victory." She relocated to the Washington DC/Baltimore area. Sadly she died drunk in the early 1940s (a possible suicide). Fitz M identified her in the morgue. Arthur - - - - From: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) Who was first, Jane or Florence? Both Florence Rankin (New York) and Jane S. (Cleveland) came to AA in 1937, but I have not been able to discover which was first to join AA or, of course, the Oxford Group as it was then. This humorous story is from Pages 122 & 123 from Dr. Bob & The Good Oldtimers: Word of Akron's "not-drinking-liquor club" had already spread to nearby towns, such as Kent and Canton, and it was probably early 1937 when a few prospects started drifting down from Cleveland. In the beginning, it was in twos and threes. (By 1939, there were two carloads.) Bob E. remembered that Jane S. was making the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T. Henry's in 1937, about the same time he started. Colorful and vivacious, with a fine sense of humor, Jane is said to be the first woman in the area to have attained any length of sobriety - meaning a few months. Oldtimers long remembered her story of being left unattended by her husband to supervise the wallpapering of a room. Trouble was, she and the paperhanger started drinking. Each time he began to hang a roll of paper, one or the other would walk into it. When her husband came home that evening, both Jane and the paperhanger had passed out, surrounded by empty bottles (as her husband told her later) and all bound up in shredded paper and waste. - - - - Sylvia Kauffmann got sober in September of 1939 in Chicago and, so far as I can find, stayed sober till she died. At any rate, she was credited having the longest uninterrupted sobriety of any woman in AA. I believe that Ethel Macy, who wrote "From Farm To City," was the first lady to join AA at Akron (May, 1941). She remained sober till she died (April 1963). Bob S. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4824. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 7:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Point of information - As far as I know, Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting roster from the original Golrick group along with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4825. . . . . . . . . . . . Spiritus contra spiritum in Eastern Orthodox Christianity From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 6:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Akathist Hymn and the story of the Icon of the Inexhaustible Cup Translated by Sister Dorofea (Mirochnitchenko) and Katherine Szalasznyj From the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition http://www.antiochian.org/1103412970 - - - - From Glenn C., a brief comment: You can see a photo of the icon which is described (it is the second one down) at: http://rusmonastery.org/eng/chasha.html This is an Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition which sees in the Holy Mother the revelation of the feminine aspect of God. She is the Theotokos, the one through whom God comes to birth in our souls. She is the Gate of Heaven, the Bridge to Heaven, and so on, and in this case, she is the one who extends to us the sacred chalice from which we can drink the true healing Spirit, instead of seeking to drown ourselves in the false spirit of alcohol. It is very much the same idea that Carl Jung tried to explain to Rowland Hazard: spiritus contra spiritum. Now let us give the traditional story, as it appears on that web site: - - - - A peasant from the Efremovskii district of Tula province, a retired soldier, was an alcoholic, and a drunkard. He would drink away all his pension, everything that he possessed, anything that could be found in his house, and eventually he was ruined and literally became a beggar. From excessive drinking, his legs became paralysed, but still he continued drinking. One day, the man, who seemed to have hit rock-bottom, had an unusual dream. In it a venerable old man came to him and said: "Go to the city of Serpoukhov, to the monastery of the Theotokos. There you will find an icon of the Holy Mother called The Inexhaustible Cup. Have a moleben [a formal religious service of intercession or supplication] before it, and you will be healed, both spiritually and physically." Without a penny to his name, and having no use of his legs, the man did not dare to go on a journey. But the holy man came to him a second and then a third time, and was so adamant in his admonition to obey his instructions, that the poor drunk did not dare to disobey any more, and he set off as quickly as he could, dragging himself on all fours. In one of the neighbouring villages where he stopped to rest, an old woman took him in for the night. To ease his pain, she massaged his legs, and put him to rest on top of the clay oven, a customary place for the old or sickly, because of the warmth. During the night the travelling man felt a pleasant sensation in his legs, and discovered that he was able to stand. On the following nights his legs became even stronger. And so, first with two walking-sticks, and then with just one, he arrived in Serpoukhov. Once in the monastery, he told about his visions, and asked to have the moleben served. But nobody there had ever heard of such an icon. They started to search for it, and noticed one that was hanging in the passage to the sacristy, that bore an image of a chalice. On the back of it, to their surprise, was written "The Inexhaustible Cup". In the icon of St Varlaam, the disciple of the holy bishop Metropolitan Aleksii, the man immediately recognised the face of the holy elder who had appeared to him in his dreams. From Serpoukhov the man departed, completely healed. The news about the miraculous icon spread quickly through the city, the region, and all of Rus. Alcoholics (those bound by the passion of drink) and their families and friends, were coming to pray before the Mother of God for healing, and in time many came back to thank the all-merciful Theotokos for her speedy help. Let it be known that this akathist service came to us in Canada in 1994, and we perceive that this is God's will and from the compassion of the Theotokos. In these times there is the renewal of the Church's life in the lands of Rus, and the rediscovery of God's mercy and tender care. This akathist has been redis- covered and is now frequently served, although the current service of which we have a photo- copy was printed in only 4,000 copies. We pray that by offering these translations many souls in North America may be healed and saved. + + + KONTAK 1 A wonderful and marvellous healing has been given to us by your holy icon, O sovereign Lady Theotokos. By its appearance we have been delivered from spiritual and physical ills, and from sorrowful circumstances. So we bring you our thankful praise, O all-merciful Protectress. O sovereign Lady, whom we call "The Inexhaustible Cup": bend down your ear and mercifully hear our lamentation and tears that we bring to you, and give your healing to those who suffer from drunkenness, so that we may cry out to you with faith: "REJOICE, O INEXHAUSTIBLE CUP THAT QUENCHES OUR SPIRITUAL THIRST!" IKOS 1 Angelic powers and multitudes of saints con- tinually glorify you, the Theotokos, Queen of all, the intercessor for us sinful Christians wallowing in lawlessness and remaining in sins. It is for our consolation and salvation that you in your mercy gave us your miraculous icon, so that looking upon it, as at the one and only star among a multitude of stars on a starlit night, we may prostrate ourselves, shouting from the very depths of our heart: REJOICE, dwelling-place of the unapproachable God. REJOICE, our constant wonder. REJOICE, you make our sorrow wipe away our sins. REJOICE, you make our grief heal our ills. REJOICE, through your miraculous icon, you bring us your heavenly mercy. REJOICE, O joy of our grieving heart. REJOICE, our wonderful reconciliation with God. REJOICE, O Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup that quenches our spiritual thirst! Etc., etc. Sent to me by "John Blair" (jblair at wmis.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4826. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. From: brian thompson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 6:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- "Mitchell K." wrote: > Point of information - As far as I know, > Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence > was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting > roster from the original Golrick group along > with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others. Sylvia K. relapsed when she returned to Chicago. Her new sobriety date was September 1939 date of the first AA meeting there. I had contacted her son a few years ago and she died I believe in 1969 with 30 yrs of sobriety. She was the first woman to acheve long term sobriety in AA. BRIAN T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4827. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 11:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 18:04 1/25/2008 , Mitchell K. wrote: >Point of information - As far as I know, >Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence >was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting >roster from the original Golrick group along >with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others. Her name also appears, with an Evanston, Illinois address, on the First 226 Members in Akron list. I notice on this list, which is available at http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html and http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc and has an X by her name indicating an early member. There are thirty-two so indicated, including the two founders, Earl Treat, J. D. Holmes, Archie Trowbridge, and Bill Dotson. There are two women included besides Sylvia; Roberta Beckwith from Akron and Ruth Tracy from Maumee, which is near Toledo. There is no Warren C. on the list, FWIW. I wonder how these two women factor in early A.A.? Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4828. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First women in AA? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2008 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From "Sally Brown" (rev.sally at att.net) Don't know how far anyone on AAHistoryLovers wants to take this fine-tooth combing of which women got sober when and for how long. However, I haven't seen a reference in the posts yet to the book "Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery," by Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones, Joan Zieger (Hazelden, 1999). This book has sections on Anne Smith, Henrietta Seiberling, Sister Ignatia, Lois Wilson, Ruth Hock, Nell Wing, Sybil C., Ester Elasardi, Eve M., Geraldine Owen D., Nancy O'D., Marcelene W., Arbutus O'N., Barbara D., Dorothy Riggs M., Dr. Joan K. Jackson, Betty Ford, Mary Jane Hanley, and Marty Mann. There is also a note referring to other names that need to be added to a list of this sort: Sylvia K., Ethyl M., and Geneva V. Also, Dave and I mention three other women on p. 127 of the Marty Mann bio - Bobby Burger (the long-time secy at AA's GSO), Ila Phillips (a professional dancer in New York), and Priscilla Peck (the art director of Vogue Magazine). And what about Wynn Corum Laws (joined AA in California in 1947 at the age of 33), whose story in the Big Book was "Freedom From Bondage"? I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of additional early AA women who found recovery in AA in the early-mid 1940s, but are or were known just to their own communities and families. Sometimes I think we may verge on idol (even "idle"!) worship of sobriety dates. We all know we're only a drink or a drug away from disaster. It's only today that matters. I remember, though, that it's different in the earlier years of sobriety. "She has two years? Oh, my God - How can that happen!" So let me get off my soapbox. Working on a dual dx unit where there's lots of complicated relapse sure helps me keep my perspective - and especially my gratitude. Thank you again and again and again, all you loyal, committed AA History Lovers, for your hard work and careful vetting. Shalom - Sally IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4829. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2008 9:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've got September 13, 1939 for Sylvia K's dry date. Wasn't Earl T her sponsor? Extracts from Nancy O's brief biographies of story authors state: For Earl T: When he slipped he realized that the alcoholic has to continue to take his own inventory every day if he expects to get well and stay well. Soon Dan Craske, MD began referring prospects to him, and another doctor in Evanston referred a woman. This was Sylvia K ("The Keys to the Kingdom"). Earl suggested she go to Akron. There they dried her out and explained the program to her, after which it was suggested that she return to Chicago to work with Earl. For Sylvia K: In the 1939 this doctor heard of the book Alcoholics Anonymous ... he told her of the handful of people in Akron and New York who seemed to have worked out a technique for arresting their alcoholism. He asked her to read the book and to talk with a man who experiencing success by using this plan. This was Earl T ("He Sold Himself Short"), the "Mr. T" to whom she refers on page 309 (pg 268 in 4th ed) ... Earl suggested she visit Akron. According to Bill W, she got off to a slow start there ... Sylvia stayed two weeks with Clarence S, "The Home Brewmeister" in Cleveland. She met Dr. Bob, who brought other AA men to meet her. Dorothy S (Clarence's wife) said that the men "were only too willing to talk to her after they saw her." Sylvia was a glamorous divorcee, extremely good looking, and rich .... Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- > Point of information - As far as I know, > Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence > was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting > roster from the original Golrick group along > with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others. Sylvia K. relapsed when she returned to Chicago. Her new sobriety date was September 1939 date of the first AA meeting there. I had contacted her son a few years ago and she died I believe in 1969 with 30 yrs of sobriety. She was the first woman to acheve long term sobriety in AA. BRIAN T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4830. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: the phrase AA textbook From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2008 4:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Baileygc23, Jon Markle, and Jenny Andrews - - - - FROM: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) The big book says, this book is meant to be suggestive, only. Page 164. - - - - FROM: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) While it is true that the front of the jacket cover contains that statement, the inside flap, apparently continues to defer to the more definitive language thus: "The basic text, pages I - 164, . . . " Also, if the jacket cover is removed, which many people do, do we find that statement repeated elsewhere in the book? If not, then how important could this assumption be? So, perhaps it is simply a matter of extrapolating what exact meaning these two instances hold for us. If any. I like the inclusion of Bill Wilson's statement on the inside flap. However that cannot be brought forward to today's Book, because the stories are not the same. His observations can only be applied to the book at the time of his writing that letter. We can only assume that idea might also apply to the current edition. Of course . . . I don't look at the book as a sacred work, so it doesn't make so much difference to me. Except as it's an inter- esting observation. All good text books are revised from time to time. Good information and instruction never remains stagnant. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 - - - - From: jenny andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) "I would imagine Bill is intending to instruct the Fellowship..." I doubt it. Bill was always careful not to instruct ("Our book is meant to be suggestive only.") The various AA texts can be compared to a signpost, which gives neutral directions - not instructions. When Winston Churchill was Prime Minister he asked his Education Secretary Rab Butler what could be done to make children more patriotic. "Tell them Wolfe won Quebec," he mused. Butler replied, "I would like to influence what was taught in schools but this was always frowned on." "Of course," Churchill rejoined, "not by instruction or order but by suggestion." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4831. . . . . . . . . . . . Sybil C. & Tex From: Danny Graham . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2008 12:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am doing some research on Sybil C. from Los Angeles and her brother Tex. Does anyone have a copy of the letter Sybil wrote to Bill W. following Tex's death in 1958? I have a copy of Bill's response, but am looking for the first letter. - - - - http://www.barefootsworld.net/aasybilc.html Sybil C. The First Woman in A.A. West of the Mississippi by Nancy O. Sybil C. was the first woman to enter A.A. west of the Mississippi. Her date of sobriety was March 23, 1941. Her name at the time was Sybil Maxwell, though she later opened her talks by saying, "My name is Sybil Doris Adams Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis C., and I'm an alcoholic." She was born Sybil Doris Adams on May 20, 1908, in the small oil town of Simians, Texas. Her parents were poor but hardworking and she had a brother Herman, ten years her senior. Herman was called "Tex." Sybil adored her big brother. She remembered that when she was five and he fifteen, he would hold her and rock her to sleep. Tex joined the Army during World War I, was reported missing in action, and when the family heard nothing further they assumed he was dead. However, when Sybil was thirteen they learned that he was alive and living in Los Angeles. The family immediately moved to California. Sybil felt like a misfit in Los Angeles. She affected the flapper makeup popular at the time: heavy white powder on her face, and two big red spots of rouge on her cheeks and lots of lipstick and black eyebrows. "I must have looked like a circus freak or something like that," she wailed. "I was in eighth grade out there in Los Angeles, and the other kids laughed at me. I had trouble making friends, being shy and timid by nature, but also my papa wouldn't let boys even walk home with me, let alone go to parties. I just wasn't allowed to do anything, and I knew I didn't belong anywhere." "So naturally I started drinking at a very early age, against my better judgment, full of shame and remorse because of Papa's teachings. He was a good man. When I was fifteen, I got drunk one night, passed out, and had to be carried home and put to bed in my mother's bed. I cried the next day and promised that it would never happen again -- and I meant it. But I didn't know myself, I didn't know the disease of alcoholism. The next Saturday night the kids handed me a bottle and I drank it. And I continued to do that through a couple of semesters of high school, and I stayed drunk through seventeen years of failed marriages and more jobs than I can count." Sybil dropped out of high school and took a secretarial course and was hired as a secretary. It was the first in a long list of jobs. At various times she was a real estate broker, a taxi driver, a bootlegger, an itinerant farm worker, the editor of a magazine for pet owners, and a salesperson. 'I didn't mind working," she said, "but I never seemed to get anywhere. I was just on a treadmill because of booze." She had a child by her first husband, a sailor. She thought having the child would prevent her drinking, but she drank more than ever, and her parents eventually took the child from her. She and her husband hitchhiked out of town to find grape picking jobs. They thought getting away from their city friends would help them quit drinking, but she soon was drunk again. During one of her drunks she heard music. At first she thought she was hallucinating, but she followed the sound and wandered into a tent where a revival meeting was in progress. The preacher asked for anyone to come forward who wanted to be saved. "Well, that was me," Sybil told A.A. members. "I went all the way down while the people were singing. The preacher put his hand out and placed it on my head, and I threw up all over him. It was so terrible! I was so ashamed, I couldn't bring myself to tell anyone about it until I got into Alcoholics Anonymous eleven years later." She left her sailor husband and hitchhiked back to Los Angeles to her mother's house. Her brother, Tex, now had a speakeasy on skid row, and to make money to take to her mother to support the child, she went into the boot- legging business with him. Eventually the speakeasy was raided and they were out of business. Then she went to work in a taxi-dance hall. Little is known of her second husband, but she met her third husband, Dick Maxwell, while working in the taxi-dance hall. One night a rich, handsome stranger walked in and bought dance tickets with Sybil for the whole night. During intermission he bought several pitchers of beer (the girls got a dollar for every pitcher their partner bought), and she told him her sad story. He offered to marry her and adopt her child if she would promise not to drink any more. Now she had a wonderful husband, a home, a housekeeper, and a car. But she couldn't stop drinking. In 1939, while visiting her mother, she read the Liberty magazine article called "Alcoholics and God." She thought the story fascinating but did nothing about it and her downward spiral continued. Eighteen months later God gave her another chance, when she read the Saturday Evening Post's March 1, 1941 issue which contained the famous Jack Alexander article about A.A.. She wrote to New York and received a reply from Ruth Hock, then Bill Wilson's secretary, who told her that there were no women members in California, but that Marty Mann was sober in New York. Ruth referred her to the small group of men then in the area. On Friday, March 23, Sybil's nonalcoholic husband, Dick Maxwell, drove her to the meeting. They found ten or twelve men seated around a table and three or four women seated against the wall. When the chairman began the meeting he announced "As is our custom before the regular meeting starts, we have to ask the women to leave." Sybil left with the other women but her husband stayed and the members assumed he was the alcoholic. When he rejoined Sybil he said "They don't know you're alive. They just went on and on bragging about their drinking until I was about to walk out, when they jumped up and said the Lord's Prayer, and here I am." Sybil headed for the nearest bar and got drunk. But she remembered that Ruth Hock had written, "If you need help, call Cliff W." and had given her his phone number. He explained: "You didn't tell us you were an alcoholic. We thought you were one of the wives. If you had identified yourself as an alcoholic, you would have been welcome as the flowers in May." When she returned the following week, Frank R. brought in a large carton full of letters bundled into bunches of twenty to fifty. He explained that they were all inquiries and calls for help from people in southern Cali- fornia. "Here they are! Here they are! If any of you jokers have been sober over fifteen minutes, come on up here and get these letters. We've got to get as many of these drunks as we can in here by next Friday, or they may die." The last bundle was of letters from women. Frank said: "Sybil Maxwell, come on up. I am going to put you in charge of all the women." Sybil liked the idea of "being in charge" but replied, "I can't, sir. You said I have to make all those calls by next Friday, or somebody might die. Well, I'll be drunk by next Friday unless you have some magic that will change everything so I can stay sober." Frank explained that everything she needed to know was in the Big Book. "And it says right in here that when all other measures fail, working with another alcoholic will save the day. That's what you will be doing, Sybil, working with other alcoholics. You just get in your car and take your mind off yourself. Think about someone sicker than you are. Go see her and hand her the letter she wrote, and say: 'I wrote one like this last week, and they answered mine and told me to come and see you. If you have a drinking problem like I have, and if you want to get sober as bad as I do, you come with me and we'll find out together how to do it.' Don't add another word to that, because you don't know anything yet. Just go get 'em." It worked, and she never had another drink. When Bill and Lois Wilson made their first visit to Los Angeles in 1943, Sybil was one of the delegation of local A.A.'s who met them at the Town House hotel. Later she met Marty Mann. But Dick Maxwell began to feel abandoned and lonely. He urged her to cut down on her A.A. activities so that they could have more of a home life. He had grown to hate A.A. and refused to read the Big Book or discuss the Twelve Steps. Finally he suggested that the solution to their marriage problems was for her to go back to drinking and he would take care of her. Sybil quickly packed a bag and left. She left her lovely home and rented a housekeeping room with a gas hotplate and a bath down the hall for nine dollars a week and went to work for the L.A. Times to support herself. "A.A. just had to come first with me," she explained. Her brother, Tex, joined the week after she did. He started the second A.A. group in the area, and appointed Sybil coffeemaker and greeter for the new group, and finally made her deliver her first shaky talk. When Tex died in 1952, Sybil was devastated. She wrote Bill Wilson, pouring out her grief and asked, "What am I going to do, Bill? I don't crave a drink, but I think I'm going to die unless I get some answers." She said Bill's answer saved her life. He wrote: ____________________ November 6, 1952 My dear Sybil, Thanks for your letter of October 21st - it was just about the most stirring thing I have read in many a day. The real test of our way of life is how it works when the chips are down. Though I've sometimes seen A.A.s make rather a mess of living, I've never seen a sober one make a bad job of dying. But the account you give me of Tex's last days is something I shall treasure always. I hope I can do half as well when my time comes. I am one who believes that in my Father's house are many mansions. If that were not so there couldn't be any justice. I can almost see Tex sitting on the front porch of one, right now, talking in the sunlight with others of God's ladies and gentlemen who have gone on before. I certainly agree with you that little was left in Tex's grave. All he had was left behind in the hearts of the rest of us and he carried just that same amount forward to where he is now. If you like what I've said, please read it to the Huntington Park Group. In any case, congratulate them for me that they had the privilege of knowing a guy like Tex. As for you, my dear, there is no need to give you advice. How well you understand that the demonstration is the thing, after all. It isn't so much a question of whether we have a good time or a bad time. The only thing that will be asked is what we do with the experience we have. That you are doing well with our tough lot is something for which I and many others are bound to be grateful. This is but a long day in school. Some of the lessons are hard and others are easy. I know you will keep on learning and passing what you learned. What more does one person need to know about another! Affectionately yours, /s/ Bill WGW/nw Sybil Willis 2874A Randolph Huntington Park, California ____________________ The letter touched Sybil so deeply she gave many copies to people who were at a low point in life, and a few years ago someone I met at an on-line meeting sent a copy to me. At the time of the letter, she was married to Jim Willis, the founder of Gamblers' Anonymous. Sybil is perhaps best remembered as the first executive secretary of the Los Angeles Central office of A.A., a position she held for twelve years. This was a turbulent time for A.A., with much disunity and controversy within the groups that led to the Twelve Traditions. Sybil remembered that the groups regarded them either with opposition or indifference and the Central Office couldn't sell many copies of the Traditions pamphlet. Understandably, since Sybil began doing Twelfth Step work immediately, she took a dim view of the rigidity that crept into the requirements. Some areas required six months or even a year of sobriety before one was allowed to call on new prospects. She advised "If you don't get prospects from the Central Office, look around the meeting rooms. There is always the forgotten man or woman, nervous and scared, who would love to have you come up and shake hands. Just feel what the new person is feeling. It kept me sober, it kept my brother Tex sober, and it will keep you sober when all other measures fail." Her fifth and enduring marriage was to another A.A. member, Bob C. He has been described a "a high-spirited, warm, and loving man, fourteen years her junior in age and twenty-two years her junior in sobriety." "Bob and I are very happy," Sybil declared. "This has been the best years of my life." They were both enthusiastic meeting-goers and enjoyed an incredibly wide circle of A.A. friends. Sybil was honored at the International A.A. Convention in Montreal in 1985. She was then the longest-sober living woman in A.A. When she was introduced to the 50,000 attendees from fifty-three countries, she told the colorful story of A.A.'s beginning in Los Angeles, in which she had played such a vital role. When she finished her talk, the audience rose to its feet as one and gave her a standing ovation which continued so long that some thought it would never stop. Sybil died in 1988. [From Harry V., Los Angeles Archivist, Sybil died in late April 1988, and the A.A. Memorial Service for Sybil was held June 5th, 1988. Her Memorial service kept getting postponed due to A.A. conference dates already on the schedule. It was a two hour plus long A.A. Memorial.] Sources: "Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery," by Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones, Joan Zieger. "Gratefull to Have Been There," by Nell Wing. Various tapes of Sybil's talks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4832. . . . . . . . . . . . WorldCat.org, a research aid... From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2008 9:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I'm a reference librarian, and it occured to me that maybe some of you AA History researchers might find http://WorldCat.org of interest. This is the public, free version of a longstanding library resource, also called WorldCat. Basically WorldCat is a massive (really massive, as in millions of items) collection of library catalog records from libraries across the U.S. and some other locations. So what does that do for you? Let's say you want to read more about someone like Emmet Fox, or a movement like the Oxford groups. You look in your local library system catalog and maybe don't find much. What to do? Is that all there is? Maybe, but maybe not. Try WorldCat.org. It will give you an idea of what is really "out there" in libraries. It will also, once you have a list of results, help you to see which libraries in your region have the item. Please note that not all libraries are open to one and all to come check books out. It is best to contact a library first before you go there. WorldCat helpfully provides contact info and web site links to its member libraries, which is pretty much everyone. Or, you can ask your local library to get the book for you through "inter-library loan." This handy system enables a library in one place to search for and have sent to it books from other libraries in the, yes, the WorldCat system. Not all items you may see in WorldCat will necessarily be available - some may be rare and the holding library won't send it, or out of state and your local library won't get items from out of state.... Local policies vary, and some public libraries need to charge at least a token fee to recoup some of their costs, although it usually is a mere token, and some libraries do not charge at all. Have fun and do support your local library! Charlie C. IM, Yahoo = route20guy "So settle down and quit your traveling ways., 'cause the boogerman's gonna get you one of these days...". (Kitty Wells, Make Up Your Mind) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4833. . . . . . . . . . . . Who can change the text of the BB and how? From: CloydG . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2008 1:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've heard that GSO provides a board of alcoholic and non alcoholic trustees that are entrusted to preserve the original text "forever" as it was originally written. Is that true? If not, what would it take to change it? I'm not interested in a debate, only historical guidelines that the founders provided for the fellowship. Clyde G. 01/03/95 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4834. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant February Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 3:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang. Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill & sophomore class suspended Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from professionalization. Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use in his practice. Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts" for "we ought" in the Big Book. Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC. Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in pamphlet form for many years. Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA. Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is published. Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get married. Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner. Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA by Larry J. Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died. Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank P ("The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this as happening Feb 13, 1937 Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition) sobriety date. Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W. Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem, NC. Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was born. Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members. Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two years before, at a New York AA meeting. Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases. Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA dies. Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on AA by Seymour Rothman. Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to tape the Big Book. Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4835. . . . . . . . . . . . March of Times 1946 news clips about AA From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 11:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just received these today. I found them delightful, the March of Time played at ALL the American movie theaters. This is an example of the great Public Informa- tion that took place in the '40s. (You may have to cut and paste into your browser.) These are Five AA archival newscasts from Time. For a delightful glimpse into AA's past, please follow the links below. http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931 2111\ _015&flash=6 [2] http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931 2111\ _025&flash=6 [3] http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931 2111\ _016&flash=6 [4] http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931 2111\ _017&flash=6 [5] http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ4931 2111\ _026&flash=6 [6] - - - - From the moderator: The last one (number five) has a nice section showing a young Marty Mann speaking to an audience. She was able to communicate effectively with any kind of audience whatsoever, and get them on her side. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4836. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Who can change the text of the BB and how? From: Jim Hoffman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2008 4:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The annual Conference has passed Advisory Actions meant to protect the Doctor’s Opinion, the first 164 pages and Dr. Bob’s story from change without the written consent of three quarters of all registered groups. Advisory Actions have also extended this protection to the Twelve Traditions and the Twelve Concepts. This means that more than 2/3 of the Delegates at the Conference approved those Advisory Actions. As the Conference Charter states Advisory Actions have no force of law. In other words, the Trustees have every legal right to ignore those directives. However, we have a history of honoring the substantially unanimous conscience of the fellowship as expressed by the Delegates through the Conference. As a result the Trustees have never acted in opposition to any Advisory Action. In fact, they will honor actions approved by a strong majority that does not quite reach the 2/3 level. - - - - That does not mean the Big Book has not changed over the years. There is an original manuscript that you will frequently see at Conferences, Dinners and Conventions. Many times you will hear its version of “How It Works” at such an event because it is different from the version that was eventually published. That manuscript was changed by revue of the fellowship that resulted in rewrite by Bill. - - - - There are also changes over the years to the originally published version. Dr. Silkworth’s name did not appear with his letter in early printings. The Doctor’s Opinion used to be on Page 1 and now it is a roman numeral section and Bill’s Story is on Page 1. Numeric references were also changed in various printings. The one that struck me first when I was newly reading the book was the reference to “Here are thousands of men and women” in the chapter, We Agnostics. I wondered how that could be when there were only a hundred when the book was written. The answer was that these kinds of references were updated over the several printings. However, the basic ideas and word of the basic text have not been changed. - - - - To see how strong the feeling against change is we only have to look at the Fourth Edition. When the first printing came out, there were some editorial changes made to DR. Bob’s story. These were strictly grammar and punctuation changes but they elicited tremendous reaction within the fellowship. An item was submitted and accepted for the following year’s Confer- ence Agenda. One basis of the item is that the story had been changed without the written approval of three fourths of the registered groups. At the Conference, the Delegates voted to reverse the changes. - - - - So, the way you would change any of these items, you would have to submit the change to be considered as an Agenda item for the following Conference. It would have to be accepted and added to the Conference. An individual could submit it but it might have a better chance of acceptance if it went through your Delegate Area and the Area and Delegate submitted letters of support. If it made the Agenda, the Delegates would then have to approve sending it to the registered groups seeking their approval. If three fourths approved then the change would be made. - - - - If there are other ways to get it to the groups for approval, I’m not aware of them. Perhaps some past Delegates or Trustees can weigh in. In either case, you would still need the group approval. So as you can see there is a way but the practicality of it happening is “remote” at best. I would say it is probably “nil”. Jim Hoffman IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4837. . . . . . . . . . . . Original AA Members From: flat412acrehouse . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2008 10:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I read message #4543 referring to the first 100 AA members, and also looked at the list of the first 226 Akron members at http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html I and my group wished to know if any of these AA members (on either list) are still alive today. Thanking you kindly gentle blessings leah IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4838. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: March of Times 1946 news clips about AA From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 8:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 10:21 1/31/2008 , you wrote: > >From the moderator: > >The last one (number five) has a nice >section showing a young Marty Mann >speaking to an audience. She was able to >communicate effectively with any kind of >audience whatsoever, and get them on her >side. > >Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) My wife Jean and I watched these. She is a nurse who practiced in the Metropolitan New York City area as well as Long Island for over 35 years. She recognized the Freeport Hospital in the last clip and says that was where Dr. Thibault had a lot of his patients. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4839. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who can change the text of the BB and how? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 9:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Jim Your statement is not correct. You also seem to be getting context a bit scrambled regarding the relationship between the Board and Conference. A 1976 Conference advisory action expanded the provisions of Article 3 of the Conference Charter. It specified that any change to the Steps, Traditions or Six Warranties of Article 12 of the Conference Charter, would require written approval of 75% of the registered AA Groups known to General Service Offices around the world. This Conference advisory action effectively makes any proposed change to the Steps, Traditions and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma). The 12 Concepts are not included in this (other than for Concept 12 which is also Article 12 of the Conference Charter - aka the six "Warrantees"). The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much "protected" from change by the prevailing sentiment of the members of the AA Fellowship as a whole. Changes to the Big Book can be accomplished by Conference advisory action. However, I doubt that they would get very far in reality. Several Conference advisory actions related to the development of the 4th edition Big Book specified that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text, appendices and "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain as is." This pretty much represents the ongoing sentiment of the AA membership that emerged with 2nd edition Big Book (1955). In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." It subsequently was interpreted that the Trustee's Literature Committee was non-responsive to several Conference's advisory actions that the story "remain as is." My own take on it is that it was likely an honest mistake because there were so many Conference advisory actions passed on the matter. In two of the advisory actions, the Conference authorized the literature committee to make punctuation changes if they were done to correct errors. It could very easily be interpreted to include all the "remain as is" sections. On the other hand, it can very easily be interpreted that "remain as is" means "remain as is." The 2003 Conference allowed the changes to stand. The 2004 Conference passed an advisory action to restore the original punctuation. The Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service provide the guidelines for the context of the relationship between the Board and the Conference. Article 4 of the Current Conference Charter reads: 4. Conference Relation to the General Service Board and its Corporate Services: The Conf- erence will replace the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous, who formerly functioned as guides and advisers to the General Service Board and its related service corporations. The Conference will be expected to afford a reliable cross section of A.A. opinion for this purpose. A quorum shall consist of two-thirds of all the Conference members registered. It will be understood, as a matter of tradi- tion, that a two-thirds vote of Conference members voting shall be considered binding upon the General Service Board and its related corporate services, provided the total vote constitutes at least a Conference quorum. But no such vote ought to impair the legal rights of the General Service Board and the service corporations to conduct routine business and make ordinary contracts relating thereto. It will be further understood, regardless of the legal prerogatives of the General Service Board, as a matter of tradition, that a three-quarters vote of all Conference members may bring about a reorganization of the General Service Board and the directors and staff members of its corporate services, if or when such reorganization is deemed essential. Under such a proceeding, the Conference may request resignations, may nominate new trustees, and may make all other necessary arrangements regardless of the legal preroga- tives of the General Service Board. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hoffman Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:27 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Who can change the text of the BB and how? The annual Conference has passed Advisory Actions meant to protect the Doctor's Opinion, the first 164 pages and Dr. Bob's story from change without the written consent of three quarters of all registered groups. Advisory Actions have also extended this protection to the Twelve Traditions and the Twelve Concepts. This means that more than 2/3 of the Delegates at the Conference approved those Advisory Actions. As the Conference Charter states Advisory Actions have no force of law. In other words, the Trustees have every legal right to ignore those directives. However, we have a history of honoring the substantially unanimous conscience of the fellowship as expressed by the Delegates through the Conference. As a result the Trustees have never acted in opposition to any Advisory Action. In fact, they will honor actions approved by a strong majority that does not quite reach the 2/3 level. - - - - That does not mean the Big Book has not changed over the years. There is an original manuscript that you will frequently see at Conferences, Dinners and Conventions. Many times you will hear its version of "How It Works" at such an event because it is different from the version that was eventually published. That manuscript was changed by revue of the fellowship that resulted in rewrite by Bill. - - - - There are also changes over the years to the originally published version. Dr. Silkworth's name did not appear with his letter in early printings. The Doctor's Opinion used to be on Page 1 and now it is a roman numeral section and Bill's Story is on Page 1. Numeric references were also changed in various printings. The one that struck me first when I was newly reading the book was the reference to "Here are thousands of men and women" in the chapter, We Agnostics. I wondered how that could be when there were only a hundred when the book was written. The answer was that these kinds of references were updated over the several printings. However, the basic ideas and word of the basic text have not been changed. - - - - To see how strong the feeling against change is we only have to look at the Fourth Edition. When the first printing came out, there were some editorial changes made to DR. Bob's story. These were strictly grammar and punctuation changes but they elicited tremendous reaction within the fellowship. An item was submitted and accepted for the following year's Confer- ence Agenda. One basis of the item is that the story had been changed without the written approval of three fourths of the registered groups. At the Conference, the Delegates voted to reverse the changes. - - - - So, the way you would change any of these items, you would have to submit the change to be considered as an Agenda item for the following Conference. It would have to be accepted and added to the Conference. An individual could submit it but it might have a better chance of acceptance if it went through your Delegate Area and the Area and Delegate submitted letters of support. If it made the Agenda, the Delegates would then have to approve sending it to the registered groups seeking their approval. If three fourths approved then the change would be made. - - - - If there are other ways to get it to the groups for approval, I'm not aware of them. Perhaps some past Delegates or Trustees can weigh in. In either case, you would still need the group approval. So as you can see there is a way but the practicality of it happening is "remote" at best. I would say it is probably "nil". Jim Hoffman IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4840. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book font and Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile From: Robyn Mitchell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 9:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anybody know what fonts have been used in the various editions of the Big Book and the Twelve and Twelve? The fonts on the cover of the 12x12 are different from the actual text. Secondly, I once saw a picture of Dr. Bob in the Buick he bought in the year or so before he died, I didn't mark the site, does anyone know where I might find the image again? Thanks muchly, Robyn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4841. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 10:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Photo of Dr. Bob with his Buick in "Dr. Bob and The Good Oldtimers," page 335. Best, Cindy Miller - - - - Also from: "Bruce C." (brucecl2002 at yahoo.com) "Jay Pees" (racewayjay at atlanticbb.net) "tomper87" (tomper99 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4842. . . . . . . . . . . . Basic Text From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2008 4:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To me, it appears as if Bill W. was thinking of the Book Alcoholics Anonymous as a text book even before it was completely written. In the A.A. Service Manual, Bill discusses his creation of the book. He states that at one point consideration was given to getting an advance from Harpers. At this point there were only two chapters completed. On page S4 of the A.A. Service Manual, Bill writes: "There was another problem too, and a serious one. If our A. A. book became the basic text for Alcoholics Anonymous, its ownership would be in other hands. It was evident that our society ought to own and publish its own literature." Jim L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4843. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2008 5:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Howdy AA History Lovers, I'm curious about the reference to Sybil C's supposed hometown of Simians, Texas. (I'm a Texan!) I've never heard of this town, and a Google search does not return anything about it, nor is there any reference to it on the State of Texas website or the Texas Historical Society website. Here's another site I checked: http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/tx/cities.htm. So I'm wondering if there is something that documents where Sybil was from, or whether this is a misspelling, or something else that could clear this up. Thanks, Debi - - - - http://www.barefootsworld.net/aasybilc.html Sybil C. The First Woman in A.A. West of the Mississippi by Nancy O. Sybil C. was the first woman to enter A.A. west of the Mississippi. Her date of sobriety was March 23, 1941 .... She was born Sybil Doris Adams on May 20, 1908, in the small oil town of Simians, Texas. Her parents were poor but hardworking and she had a brother Herman, ten years her senior. Herman was called "Tex" .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4844. . . . . . . . . . . . Who was Betty Love? From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2008 3:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In "The Soul of Sponsorship" by Robert Fitzgerald, S.J., page 56, in a letter written by Bill Wilson to Father Ed, he wrote: "We'd very much like your criticisms of the material enclosed. Do we run across the grain of your ideas anywhere, do you care for the writing style and is the structural situation depicted in conformity with your observations of AA?" Bill also mentioned he had good help from some other writers: Tom Powers, Betty Love and Jack Alexander. My question is, who was Betty Love? I have found zero hits on the name Betty Love on this history site. Thank you, Terry P.S. On the same page Bill wrote this for a motive behind the writing of the 12x12. He used the word "bait." Letter from Bill W to Father Ed (page 56 same book): "If we are able to do a fair job on the steps, that will be helpful and, published along with the traditions, they may act as a bait for reading the latter. However we'll see." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4845. . . . . . . . . . . . Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2008 6:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just received this. Thought it was inter- esting. This is a good example of why the 12 Traditions were necessary. - - - - Patti (paks68 at optonline.net) wrote: Here is the story about Irma Livoni that some of you asked about. Each year around this time I try to tell this true story about what happened not just on Dec 7th 1941 (Pearl Harbor Day) but what happened to one of the few women who was in AA at that time, and about a letter she received in the mail, on Monday, December 8th, which virtually kicked her out of AA. This is a long email, so read it when/if you have the time. In Dec of 1984, I had been sober for 2-1/2 years, and working with my sponsors Bob and Sybil Corwin since Jan of 84. Sybil had gotten sober in March of 1941, so at the time she was 43 yrs sober. We were driving home from a meeting and she asked me the date (to her it was just Sunday). I told her it was Dec 8th, and that yesterday (Dec 7th) was the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day. She said "Matt, have I ever told you about Irma Livoni?" "Nope, who is she?" She said, "Well, when we get back to the house, come in for coffee and I’ll tell you a story about AA history and some of the reasons we have tradition 3. Oh, and by the way Matt, did you know that the literature specifically protects 'queers, plain crackpots, and fallen women,' and since you and I are at least two out of those three, we should be especially grateful for tradition 3? I'll show you it when we get home." I laughed out loud, as Sybil had a great sense of humor, and she had been a taxi dancer, back before she got sober, you know one of those "10 cents a dance" ladies, and she was divorced twice, and was a single mom, as well as an alcoholic back then, so the term "fallen woman" was something that hit close to home. She had told me that it was very different back in the 30's and 40's for a woman to be an alcoholic. Sybil said It was a time when women wore hats and gloves, and "respectable women" were not usually found in a bar, or at "whoopie parties." Our Thursday night step study had voted to not cover the traditions after we got to step 12, so I figured they must not be very important and thought I’d probably be bored with the conversation, but she got my attention telling me that "queers, crackpots and fallen women" were mentioned, so I agreed to come in for coffee. Besides Sybil had been sober longer than I had been alive. I didn't argue with her very much. Sybil got down her copy of the big book. She said, I want you to find the traditions in there, and read me tradition 3. It was a 1st edition Big Book. Thicker than mine. I said, "Is this why they call it the Big Book?" She said, "exactly, Bill had it printed on big paper, with big margins around the type, so that people would think they were really getting something for their money." I looked in the back of the book, where I thought the traditions were, but couldn't find them. "I can’t find them, Sybil." "Exactly. That's because we didn't have any traditions back in 1941 when I came in. And Matt, AA was in mortal danger of destroying itself, which is why we have traditions now." Then she had me find them in my 3rd edition and in my 12 & 12. I didn't read it all, just the caption heading, and then she started telling me the story of IRMA LIVONI. Irma was a sponsee of Sybil's. She also became a member in 1941, just after Sybil. Sybil took her into her home. (Sybil told me that many people's bottoms were very low then, no home, no job, no watch, no car, nothing). Sybil said it was different then for a woman to be an alcoholic. That most of them had burned all their bridges with their families, and were looked down upon, even more so than male alcoholics. Sybil said she watched AA help Irma get sober, watched AA help Irma get cleaned up, watched AA help Irma get her first job in sobriety, and watched AA help Irma get her first apartment in sobriety. Then she said that on Dec 5th, 1941 a self- appointed group of the members signed a letter to Irma & mailed it 2 days before Pearl Harbor, on that Friday, Dec 5th. Here is a copy of the letter: ------------------------- ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Post Office Box 607 Hollywood Station Hollywood, California December Fifth 1941 Irma Livoni 939 S. Gramercy Place Los Angeles, California Dear Mrs. Livoni: At a meeting of the Executive Committee of the Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, held Dec. 4th, 1941, it was decided that your attendance at group meetings was no longer desired until certain explanations and plans for the future were made to the satisfaction of this committee. This action has been taken for reasons which should be most apparent to yourself. It was decided that, should you so desire, you may appear before members of this committee and state your attitude. This oppor- tunity will be afforded you between now and December 15th, 1941. You may communicate with us at the above address by that date. In case you do not wish to appear, we shall consider the matter closed and that your membership is terminated. Alcoholics Anonymous, Los Angeles Group Mortimer, Frank, Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al ------------------------- I was stunned. "How could they do this, Sybil?" "Because we didn't have any guidelines, any traditions to protect us from good intentions. AA was very new, and people did all sorts of things, thinking they were protecting the fellowship." Sybil then said to close my eyes and imagine my being in the following setting. Sybil explained that Dec 7th, 1941 was Pearl Harbor Day (a Sunday). She said that that Sunday night everyone in LA was afraid that Los Angeles would also be attacked and bombed. There was a citywide blackout, people were so terrified. She said that on Monday Dec 8th, President Rosevelt gave the speech that talked about "the date that will live in infamy" and that we were now at war with Japan and Germany. She said, that was the day that Irma received her letter. There was only one meeting in the entire state of California when Sybil came in, in 1941. By December there may have been two or three, but Irma had nowhere else to go, no one else to turn to. No other Group in California that she could ask for help. Sybil said, "Imagine only one or two meetings in your entire state, and being shunned by your family, and by society, and by the only group of people who were on your side, your AA group. Imagine them shutting the door on you and sending you such a letter, Matt." I shivered at the thought of it. It was Christmas time, the stores were decorated and now poor Irma was all alone. I thought about how it was in 1984 with 2000 meetings a week to choose from in Southern California. and then I imagined having no other help for a hopeless alcoholic. Sybil told me that Irma never came back to another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism. She wrote to Bill about the incident, and I cannot tell you that this is the reason that the following is a part of the 3rd Tradition, but it certainly seems to apply. From Tradition 3, page 141: ------------------------- ... that we would neither punish nor deprive any AA of membership, that we must never compel anyone to pay anything, believe anything, or conform to anything? The answer, now seen in Tradition Three, was simplicity itself. At last experience taught us that to take away any alcoholic's full chance was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence, and often to condem him to endless misery. Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?" ------------------------- JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER I remember looking at those words again and again, and they seemed to get larger and larger. JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER I hadn't really noticed EXECUTIONER when I had read it the first time at my 12 & 12 study group. Again I felt so bad for this poor lady. Wow, those words really had a different meaning than when I had read the traditions before. So here it is, 23 years later, and each December 7th & 8th, I always think about Irma Livoni, and how lucky I am, that we have traditions now. I also think of how lucky I was to have met Sybil and so lucky that she appointed herself my sponsor. Years later I realized how everything she ever taught me was like gold. But in 1984 I had no idea who Sybil really was or how lucky I was to have her as my sponsor. She was like a piece of living history, but I really didn't realize how valuable that was in explaining WHY we do some of the things we do (like the story she told me about how they never said "Hi Sybil" and no one said "Hi my name is Matt and I'm an alcoholic" back then). Besides being one of the first women in AA, Sybil was the first woman west of the Nissis- sippi. She also became the head of LA's central office for 12 years, and she became close friends with Bill and Lois. She and Bob even used to go on vacation with them. She used to tell me all sorts of stories about Bill Wilson and things he said to her. He was very interested in how AA would work for women, as there were very few women worldwide in AA back in 1941. Marty Mann came in before Sybil did, but very few stayed sober. I learned that night that no one can get kicked out of AA. We can ask a disturbing wet drunk that he needs to settle down or we might have to ask him to step outside for that day, but we don't vote to kick anyone out forever. And we don't shun people because our guidelines, our traditions tell us that no one has to believe in anything (they don't have to be like me) and they don't have to conform to anything(they don't have to dress a certain way, or have no facial hair, or pay anything). Even if I get drunk again, I am still welcome at any AA meeting. So that's the story about Irma Livoni. Feel free to pass this along to anyone you know who might be interested in knowing a bit about how and why the traditions got started. I think it sort of puts a face on tradition 3: the face of a woman I never knew, who got kicked out of AA. Who got drunk and died. Thank God for Tradition 3, and thank God for all of you. I truly appreciate and cherish all the people in this group. Best AA love to you all. "God hasn't promised us tomorrow, but he has promised us eternity." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4846. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 7:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is wonderful. I had seen this letter while touring the Akron Intergroup but couldn't remember the woman's name or the exact wording of the letter. I remember thinking how foreign of a concept that someone could be kicked out of AA. It helped put into context my short years of recovery with what it was like for members such as Irma before there were the Traditions. (1) Does anyone have information on why they wrote: "This action has been taken for reasons which should be most apparent to yourself." (2) Does anyone know more specifics about Irma - when she died etc. (3) Also, is there any information about the members who signed the letter (Mortimer, Frank, Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al)? (4) I wonder if they remained members of Alcoholics Anonymous and if their thoughts about how they handled this situation changed over the years? Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4847. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 4:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Debi Ubernosky" wrote: > Howdy AA History Lovers, > > I'm curious about the reference to Sybil C's > supposed hometown of Simians, Texas. Hopefully this will not confuse the issue but here is a possible explanation from a flyer of one of Sybil's many AA talks. Her birth town is here referred to as Semens, Texas. Also very difficult to find this town in Texas. My conclusion is that they are referring to Simmons, Texas. The info was probably taken from her talk and they did not get the spelling correct. Hope this is helpful. -Tom P. - - - - S Y B I L C O R W I N Anniversary Meeting Waterloo, Iowa April 9, 1993 "A Timeless Staple on the AA Trail" 75 years Young at the time of this Talk! Sybil was the first woman west of the Missis- sippi River to get sober in AA. She mentions that Marty Mann shared that honor on the East Coast. Her Sobriety Date is March 23, 1941. She had been married five times. She introduces herself at the beginning of her talk as Sybil Doris Adams Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis Corwin. She had just celebrated 42 years of Sobriety at the time this talk took place. Born in a lil' town of Semens Texas that had a wooden school house. She tells of lovin' that School House. Parents were religious and thought of whiskey as Evil. Momma was nervous and frightened and it rubbed off on her. A scared child, she had no one to play with. Started reading at four and learned by reading off of a Biscuit Box on the kitchen table. The family moved to Los Angeles and at 14 or so she wanted to know what her Papa was talking about when he spoke of whiskey so she drank a whole bottle offered to her by her classmates. Woke up in shame and remorse in her Momma's bed. A dismal attempt to stop drinking proved futile. "I didn't want to behave like that" Became defiant and Belligerent and she was derailed at every turn. First marriage to a Sailor produced one child. Her only child. Drinking out of control and more marriages she at the end of her rope reads the article in the Saturday Evening Post on March 1, 1941. "A women drunk was beneath everything you can think about" Writing a letter to AA for help; she received a return letter from Ruth Hock, AA's first secretary. Ruth told her about a little group of men meeting in Los Angeles. This group was given a Red Big Book by Kay Miller who migrated to LA from NY. Her husband was in AA. She was not an Alcoholic but started many meetings. You will hear how Sybil recruited new Alcoholic Women to come into the Program and she names many of the old timers, including Cliff Walker who became her Sponsor. A unique sharing of the Steps comes at the close of this great and history filled talk. Sybil passed on April 29, 1998 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4848. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 10:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Some time back (a few years) I was contacted by an individual who I believe said was in the posession of the original letter and thought I would be interested in it. If this is the case and is true the actual date of the letter was December 6th, 1941. You can view it here: http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/irmal1941.html Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4849. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Irma Livoni & Sybil C threads From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 11:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII some Grapevine info might be worth noting: Grapevine article by Sybil C., February 1992, "Learning to Fly" http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1539 "What We Were Like, Fragments of AA History (Los Angeles)" - Grapevine, June 1990 - from a Series on AA history http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-Fragments-of-AA-History-Ju n-19\ 90.pdf [7] "What We Were Like, The North Hollywood Group" - Grapevine, May 1997 - Linda H., North Hollywood, California http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-The-North-Hollywood-Group- May-\ 1997.pdf [8] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4850. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2008 10:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII After reading my own post I realized the Waterloo Poster of Sybil's talk had at least one error. She was 85 years young at the time of this particular talk in 1993. OOPS! -Tom P. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4851. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil C. & Tex From: charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2008 1:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, As a novice genealogist I checked the US Census and found that in 1910 Sybil’s family was living in Melrose, New Mexico and 1920 the family was living in Wichita Texas. Both censuses stated Sybil was born in New Mexico. Since Sybil was born in 1908 and the 1910 census was taken in Melrose NM it is a good chance she was born in New Mexico and not in Texas. I Googled and couldn’t find a Simians, New Mexico either. So not sure what city she was actually born in. I also discovered Sybil’s brother Tex's full name was Herman Lafayette Adams. I have 2 different birth dates for him. On his WWI draft registration it stated his birthday as July 17, 1898, but his death certificate states his birthday as October 19, 1898. He died October 11, 1952. Sybil also had another older brother, Clyde Ernest Adams. He was born August 21, 1903 and died February 14, 1994. (Do not believe he ever needed AA.) I also have the exact date that Sybil died. According the Social Security Death Index she died April 29, 1998, not 1988. I know this to be the correct year because I went to her memorial service. I got sober in 1989 so it could not have been 1988. Hope this helps, Charles from California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4852. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Movie Preview From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2008 10:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA Movie PreviewCopy & paste this web address: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5aSR_8u1pE - - - - From the moderator: there is a cameo of Ernie Kurtz about halfway through (among other worthies who appear in this clip). Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4853. . . . . . . . . . . . Colliers Wood From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 3:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Every once in a while you come across something that has been put together so well, that you wish that people in other parts of the world could just look at it, to see if they could get some good suggestions for doing things where they live. The Colliers Wood Design for Living AA Group in London has put together a website http://www.designforlivingaagroup.co.uk/ that struck me that way. It's put together beautifully, it's got nice material on sponsorship, the AA group, and AA literature, and keeps things firmly grounded in AA's historic heritage. Glenn C. Tuesday night group Osceola, Indiana, USA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4854. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in the Arabian peninsula From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 5:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An article sent to us by "John Blair" (jblair at wmis.net) Long due recognition: UAE's AA hero by Derek Baldwin (December 13, 2007) http://www.xpress4me.com/news/uae/abudhabi/20004714.html The founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) in the UAE [United Arab Emirates] has been nationally feted for 30 years for helping addicts find their lives again. In his first public appearance, Tom L., 64, was presented with an award this week by the Emirate of Abu Dhabi National Rehabilitation Centre. After years of selfless service, it is the only time that Tom has agreed to be photographed and identified. In contrast to a time when a small group met quietly to respect Muslim views about alcohol, the centre has recognised Tom and AA for "continuous outstanding contribution towards recovery". The well-attended awards ceremony was a bit overwhelming for a man who once struggled heavily with the bottle to the point that he lost his job, his family and friends in the late 1960s in India. "It came to a point where I was living in the streets in Mumbai. I was 26 and didn’t have any hope," he said in an interview with XPRESS. "Then one day I had a spiritual awakening." On July 20, 1970, Tom attended an AA meeting and his life was transformed forever thanks to the 12-Step Programme and a new relation- ship with his "higher power". In 1975, he moved to Abu Dhabi as a labourer and two years later, he founded the very first AA meeting in a small room in Deira. "There was a need for this meeting for myself and for others as well," he said, seated in his spacious villa. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4855. . . . . . . . . . . . Member introduction and group response From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2008 7:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the origins of the custom of members sharing at meetings to introduce themselves: "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic" or the (much later, I believe) practice of the group's response: "Hi, xxx"? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4856. . . . . . . . . . . . Preserving archival materials From: LouPetrosino . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 12:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a question about preserving magazines, printed material and letters. I have been using 100% virgin polyethylene magazine bags; how do these compare to mylar bags? Is there a preference between the two? Is 100% virgin important? Using the large polyethylene bags that I do have, it's a very tight fit for our older Saturday Evening Posts. Has anyone else had a problem like this? Anyone have a good source for bags? I have been using the large, 10 7/8 x 14 1/4, from Bags Unlimited - they are supposed to fit Life, Look, Saturday Evening Post but seem a tad small. I have also been using acid-free board to help stiffen the magazines, is that a good practice? Thanks for any help you can give. Lou IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4857. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom Powers and Betty Love From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 6:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of the 12x12, please? Thanks, Pete Tippett IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4858. . . . . . . . . . . . Sybil C. & Tex From: erb2b . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2008 10:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HI .. I have a good friend in Sybils daughter. I have been sending her copies of the informa- tion in here about her mother. Shes has replied so far with this: My mother was born in Simmons not Simions according to her (Sybil). And yes, she passed away April 29, 1998. I will send futher information thru here to her if you have questions you may want answered. Trudging in Peace!!! Corey F. (erb2b at yahoo.com) - - - - Charles Knapp wrote: > > Hello, > > As a novice genealogist I checked the US > Census and found that in 1910 Sybil's family > was living in Melrose, New Mexico and 1920 the > family was living in Wichita Texas. > > Both censuses stated Sybil was born in New > Mexico. Since Sybil was born in 1908 and the > 1910 census was taken in Melrose NM it is a > good chance she was born in New Mexico and > not in Texas. I Googled and couldn't find a > Simians, New Mexico either. So not sure > what city she was actually born in. > > I also discovered Sybil's brother Tex's > full name was Herman Lafayette Adams. I have > 2 different birth dates for him. On his > WWI draft registration it stated his birthday > as July 17, 1898, but his death certificate > states his birthday as October 19, 1898. He > died October 11, 1952. > > Sybil also had another older brother, Clyde > Ernest Adams. He was born August 21, 1903 > and died February 14, 1994. (Do not believe > he ever needed AA.) > > I also have the exact date that Sybil died. > According the Social Security Death Index she > died April 29, 1998, not 1988. > > I know this to be the correct year because I > went to her memorial service. I got sober in > 1989 so it could not have been 1988. > > Hope this helps, > > Charles from California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4859. . . . . . . . . . . . Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat From: arcchi88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2008 10:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was wondering if anyone has any history on a retreat that is held annually at St. Joseph's College in Rensselaer, Indiana. There have got to be some people who have attended in years past who can tell a story or two!!! If you have ever attended this retreat and have a story to tell, big or small, please pass it on! Thanks! Tom C. - - - - From the moderator, Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana): My first reaction was to assume that you knew how the first AA retreats were held there, but then I realized that you might not. They were an important part of early AA history however. http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html RALPH PFAU wrote the Golden Books under the pen name of Father John Doe, to preserve his anonymity. The twelfth step says "(a) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried (b) to carry this message to alcoholics, and (c) to practice these principles in all our affairs." The Golden Books tell us how to do the last part, that is, how to bring the principles of the program to bear on our daily lives in the world, how to make decisions in the real world, and how to keep our minds and spirits on an even keel amidst the storms and stresses of everyday life. Ralph Pfau was a priest in Indianapolis, Indiana, the first Roman Catholic priest to get sober in the A.A. program. On November 10, 1943, he telephoned Doherty Sheerin, who had started the first A.A. group in that city on October 28, 1940. Dohr became his sponsor, and Ralph never drank again. In June 1947, Ralph conducted a weekend spiritual retreat for A.A. members (70% of them Protestants) at St. Joseph’s College at Rensselaer, Indiana, and gave the attendees (as a souvenir) a little pamphlet with a cover made of gold foil, called the "Spiritual Side," containing the short talks he had given to start up the various group discussion sessions. Afterwards, people began asking for extra copies to give to their A.A. friends. Between then and 1964, Ralph put together fourteen of these little "Golden Books," based on his talks at A.A. spiritual retreats which he was now giving all over the U.S. and Canada. - - - - http://hindsfoot.org/pflou3.html When Ralph had been sober for a year and a half or so, he began to feel frustrated about one thing. When he went out on twelve step calls, drunks would not accept anything he told them, because he was a priest, and they thought he was just preaching the old moral condemnation line at them. He talked about it with Dohr several times, and Dohr told Ralph that he knew he had special things to give to the program, and the only problem was to discover what it was that God needed him to do. When the solution finally came, Ralph said, “the answer was so obvious that I felt foolish because I hadn’t thought of it sooner.” It was a regular practice in the Catholic church to have spiritual retreats, where a retreat director gave talks on Catholic belief and practice, interspersed with periods when people could ask questions, and periods for group discussion sessions, and some free periods also just for rest and quiet medita- tion. Catholics had always found that they could derive great spiritual benefits from these retreats. Ralph decided to run a trial experiment by trying just a simple one-day retreat. He held it at the Little Sisters of the Poor, starting after church on Sunday, and running through till dinner-time in the evening. This was probably somewhere in the latter part of 1945. It was a totally novel experience for him. There was no preaching on Catholic dogma, because everything was centered purely on A.A. principles and beliefs. But more importantly, only twenty of the sixty-seven men who came were Catholics -- the other 70% all came from Protestant backgrounds. The experiment was so successful, that Ralph decided to try a full weekend retreat, so in early April of 1946 he wrote to St. Joseph’s College at Rensselaer, Indiana, and they finally agreed to let him use their buildings during their summer vacation, in June of 1946. This was the first weekend-long spiritual retreat ever held in Alcoholics Anonymous. Rensselaer was up in the northwestern corner of Indiana, an area of the state with which Ralph was not nearly so familiar. This weekend affair was again a rousing success. His theme for this retreat was “The Spiritual Side of Alcoholics Anonymous,” which went over so well that he gave the same talk at all the retreats he conducted over the next year, and finally put it out on a recording. This was the first of what was eventually a set of thirty phonograph records which took his voice to A.A. people all over the United States. And this was also where the Golden Books began. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4860. . . . . . . . . . . . L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950? From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2008 1:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the 1950 City Directory of Akron, I see Dr. R H Smith as owner of 855 Ardmore Ave and a phone number of UN-2436. I also have a listing at the address for a person named L J Knisely. Was this person a relative of the Smith's or perhaps a live-in nurse or just a boarder? Does any one have any knowledge of this person? Yours in Service Shakey Mike Gwirtz See you in Niagara Falls NY Sept 11-14 2008 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4861. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Martin''s health? From: jm48301 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 4:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On Jan. 16,it was reported (Message 4799) that Father Martin had suffered a heart attack. Has he recovered? My question relates to an extraordinary figure in "AA History." Thank you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4862. . . . . . . . . . . . Lavelle or Lovell J. K., 855 Ardmore From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 8:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The L. J. K. whom Shakey found at 855 Ardmore in 1950 is the Lavelle K. (of Lavelle and Emma K.) who lived there and took care of Dr. Bob. The two signatures I have seen of Lovell show his name spelled that way (he was btw born in 1890 and in 1942 was living in Kent OH), but in DR BOB AND THE GOOD OLD TIMERS (pp. 17, 272, 289, 317-318, 329-330, 333, 339-343) it is spelled Lavelle. His middle name was Joyce. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4863. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Betty Love From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 5:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Pete, I don't know anything about Betty Love, but Tom Powers told me in a telephone interview that he helped Bill with the 12 & 12, though apparently without making major changes in Bill's writing style (which Powers called Elizabethan). Jack Alexander, author of the breakthrough Saturday Evening Post story about AA, also put some finishing touches on the book, according to Bill. In my own opinion, the book reflects the same style we see in Bill's other writings, so I feel it's largely his. I think Powers and others probably made only minor corrections and changes. Mel Barger Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Tippett To: AA History Buffs Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 6:45 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Tom Powers and Betty Love Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of the 12x12, please? Thanks, Pete Tippett IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4864. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Father Martin''s health? From: oldsmokef . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2008 6:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a place on this website where people can click for an update on Father Joseph C. Martin's health condition: http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/index.htm http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/interior.php?section=News&subsection=Fath erMa\ rtinUpdate [9] - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jm48301" wrote: > > On Jan. 16,it was reported (Message 4799) that > Father Martin had suffered a heart attack. > > Has he recovered? My question relates to an > extraordinary figure in "AA History." > > Thank you. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4865. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Vladivostok From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2008 7:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anonymous Alcoholics Will Gather in Vladivostok This public association is a part of the World community of anonymous alcoholics, which was founded in 1935 in the USA VLADIVOSTOK, February 10, vladivostoktimes.com The self-help society of anonymous alcoholics of Vladivostok "Welcome" celebrates its 15th anniversary, the newspaper "Vladivostok" writes. The celebration of the anniversary and intro- ducing the society will be held on Saturday at noon in the Primorye State Arsenyev museum. This public association is a part of the World community of anonymous alcoholics, which was founded in 1935 in the USA. Welcome members are trained on the program "12 steps." Every person can apply with his problem to this association and get a free advice. In these years thousands of Primorye residents have found support. Everyone who came with his own trouble could see that he is not lone in this world. The trainings are held not only with those who are tired of taking alcohol or drugs, but also with their relatives. "Unfortunately, not everyone is ready to refuse of his destructive vices," one of the members of the group of self-help of anonymous alcoholics Sergey YAKOVLEV claims. "But it is never late to do the first step." http://vladivostoktimes.ru/show.php?id=21451 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4866. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Preserving archival materials - magazines From: Mike Breedlove . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 5:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Lou, Let me first mention the COOL, Conservation online site at - http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/ This site is always a good place to start with conservation questions. Another good place is the Library of Congress web page - http://www.loc.gov/preserv/ There are many others. The three appropriate plastics (of which I am aware) to use to create a clear bag for a magazine (or any other paper product) are polyester, polypropylene, and polyethylene. Polyester, or Mylar-D, is by its nature is both clearer and stiffer than polypropylene, which is somewhat clearer and stiffer than polyethylene. So the short answer to your question is that polyester is the best material to us to make a "bag" for a magazine. A 2 mil (.002) thickness polyester would be sufficient to support the weight of the magazine unless the magazine is particularly thick, in which case a 3 mil would suffice. Given the reality of cost issues, neither polyester nor polypro- pylene is that much superior to polyethylene, particularly if the magazine is kept in the dark. A couple of other facts also need to be mentioned. Even using a bag, one should be careful to limit handling and display. Also, the magazine should not be sealed airtight in the bag, as paper slowly degrades on its own. Sealing the paper in a bag creates an ever more acidic environment for the paper. So in the bag one should leave at least a small opening on one or two ends to allow a minimal air flow. Also, if staples are used in the magazine, please remove them carefully before placing the magazine in the bag. The metal staples react with the paper, accelerating the acidification process. Particularly with a polyethylene bag using an acid-free, lignin-free backing board to add stiffness is very helpful in the case of handling or display. The one cautionary note is that if the bag is too tight or small, that does in fact add physical stress to the magazine that is not helpful. It would be better to use an oversized bag and be careful in handling the magazine that to stuff the magazine in too small a bag. Hope this is helpful. I would suggest that if anyone has more specific questions about preserving magazines, please respond to me at my email, mikeb415@knology.net (mikeb415 at knology.net) rather than to the entire list. Any questions beyond my expertise (likely) I will try to help refer to a more learned person. Yours in service, Mike B, Area One Archivist - - - - From: lqd8rflp@aol.com (lqd8rflp at aol.com) Try http://www.uniline.com -- they carry all kinds of hard to find bags, supplies, etc. Regards, John Hager DOS--2/29/88 - - - - ----- Original Message ----- From: LouPetrosino To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 11:13 AM Subject: [SPAM] [AAHistoryLovers] Preserving archival materials I have a question about preserving magazines, printed material and letters. I have been using 100% virgin polyethylene magazine bags; how do these compare to mylar bags? Is there a preference between the two? Is 100% virgin important? Using the large polyethylene bags that I do have, it's a very tight fit for our older Saturday Evening Posts. Has anyone else had a problem like this? Anyone have a good source for bags? I have been using the large, 10 7/8 x 14 1/4, from Bags Unlimited - they are supposed to fit Life, Look, Saturday Evening Post but seem a tad small. I have also been using acid-free board to help stiffen the magazines, is that a good practice? Thanks for any help you can give. Lou [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4867. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member introduction and group response From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2008 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the origins of the custom of members sharing at meetings to introduce themselves: "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic" Open meetings in the early years of AA were public meetings. I'm from Montreal and the combined groups used to put on a "Public Meeting" once a month. The speakers were usually doctors, wardens, social workers and an AA member who identified himself as an alcoholic. These meetings were given a lot of publicity in local papers and radio. Public meeting carried on into the early 60's at which time they became part of the Area Conference and the public stopped coming. I have 90 tapes of Bill Wilson and not once in any of his AA talks does he ever introduce himself as an alcoholic. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4868. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2008 1:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mike, Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers shows that a couple named Emma and Lavelle K. came to live with Dr. Bob in his last months. These must be the Kniselys. What follows is the Dr. Bob story from the January 1951 Grapevine. Only Emma is mentioned by name. Mel Barger January 1951 Vol. 7 No. 8 Without Heroics. . .As He Would Wish It, This Is the Story Of Dr. Bob the Physician Whose 'Practice' Reached Half Across the world. . . Dr. Bob was born August 8, 1879, in St. Johnsbury, Vermont, a typical New England village of some 7000 souls. As the only son of parents prominent in civic and church activities, his early childhood was spent under strict parental guidance. Signs of inner revolt came at an early age. In later years the doctor liked to tell his children, Sue and Robert, of how he was put to bed every evening at five o'clock. He would go quietly enough, a fact which might have led the modern child-psychology-wise parent to suspect the worst, but which seemingly went unnoticed by the young man's parents. As soon as he was reasonably sure that he was considered safely asleep, he would arise, dress and slip quietly downstairs and out the back door to join his village gang. So far as is known he was never apprehended while on his nocturnal expeditions. The call of the woodland trail was far more fascinating to young Rob, as his schoolmates called him, than the stuffy schoolhouse to which he was forced to make his reluctant way each morning. His active young mind was more apt to be concentrating upon the best method to trap a bear than on the dull drone of his teacher's voice. He wanted to be free to roam. Rebellion surged within him at the thought of restraint of any sort. . .study and home-work were "musts". . .even the keenness of his youthful mind was not enough to make up for his lack of application to his daily lessons. Serious repercussions often followed which led to accusations of "waywardness" by his parents and his teachers. Though his scholastic neglect may have disgraced him with his elders upon occasion, his schoolmates loved him. Whether it was because his habitual and sometimes adventurous revolts against restraint gave him a glamorous aura or because of the accuracy with which children often sense traits of character obscure to adults, they made him a popular and sought-after member of their class. Freedom from some of the "musts" came with vacations. He was released, then, to wander the hills, hunt, and trap and swim in the sea. Often Rob and his friends went into Canada on hunting trips. On one of these forays into the wilds, hunting was so poor that the boys lived on eels, blueberries and cream of tartar biscuits for three weeks. They did flush a particularly large woodchuck. They stalked him for several hours. Finally they had him within shooting range. After being shot at for sometime, the woodchuck disappeared. This episode later caused Rob's father, the Judge, to remark that the woodchuck probably went in to get out of the noise. The incident of the woodchuck and a tale of a great bear chase cast some shadow of doubt on young Rob's prowess as a hunter and woodsman. Off to the woods one day, went the young hunter and a schoolmate. The boys sauntered along, kicking at stones. . .building castles in the air. . .talking about the things that spirited adolescent males talk about. Suddenly they saw before them a huge bear. The bear, who was probably as astonished as the boys, took to the woods at a gallop. The young hunters were hard at his heels. The day was hot, the brambles thick, courageous daring was at its height. . .the bear got away. "I don't believe," Dr. Bob used to say, "that we ran as fast as we might have!" In the summers the family often spent some weeks in a cottage by the sea. Here Rob became an expert swimmer. He and his foster sister, Nancy, spent many hours building and sailing their own sailboats. It was here that he saved a young girl from drowning. This event must have left an impression. . .probably of the advisability for every child to learn to swim at an early age. He taught his own children, Robert R. and Sue, to be expert swimmers at the age of five. The three of them would set out every vacation morning to swim the channel near their cottage. This feat often caused distraught neighbors to call their mother to tell her that her babies had fallen out of a boat in the middle of the channel. While the boy, Rob, was high-spirited, considered rebellious and wayward he was industrious and labored long and hard at anything he wanted to do. He was still very young when it became apparent that he was ambitious as well as willing to work. He wanted, above all else, to become a medical doctor like his maternal grandfather. When he was about nine years old he began to show signs of liking to work, especially out of doors. That summer he was at a neighbor's farm helping the men load hay. Perhaps he was resting, perhaps he was prowling around poking under bushes to see what he could see. . .he saw a jug. . .he pulled the cork and sniffed. It was a new odor to this son of strict New England parents. It was an odor that he liked. If the stuff in the jug smelled so good, it should taste good too. And it was good. He liked the taste. He liked the way it made him feel. A little boy; a jug of hooch; the first securely welded link in the chain. By the time he reached his teens, Rob was spending parts of his summers working on a Vermont farm or juggling trays and lugging baggage as a bellhop in an Adirondack summer hotel. His winters were passed trying to avoid the necessity of having to attend high school in order to receive a diploma. It may have been during his high school days that young Rob learned much of what there is to know about a billiard table. Later when his son, Robert, would tease him about this accomplishment as being the product of a mis-spent youth, Dr. Bob would just smile and say nothing. He was a good student in spite of himself and graduated from St. Johnsbury Academy in 1898. It was at a party given at the Academy that Dr. Bob first met Anne. A student at Wellesley, she was spending a holiday with a college chum. It was a small, reserved girl whom the tall, rangy Rob met that night. With an agile mind to match his own, Anne had a cheerfulness, sweetness and calm that was to remain with her through the years. It was these same qualities that were in the future to endear her to hundreds as Anne, Dr. Bob's wife. After high school at St. Johnsbury Academy came four years of college at Dartmouth. At long last the rebellious young colt was free of his parents restraining supervision. New experiences were to be explored and enjoyed without having to give an accounting. His first discovery in his search for the facts of life on the campus was that joining the boys for a brew seemed to make up the greater part of after-class recreation. From Dr. Bob's point of view it was the major extra-curricular activity. It had long been evident that whatever Rob did, he did well. He became a leader in the sport. He drank for the sheer fun of it and suffered little or no ill-effects. Fame came to him at Dartmouth--no accolades for scholarship. . .no letters for athletic prowess. . .his fame came for a capacity for drinking beer that was matched by few and topped by none. . .and for what the students called his "patent throat." They would stand in awe watching him consume an entire bottle of beer without any visible muscular movement of swallowing. The prospects of getting drunk in the evening furnished Rob and his cronies with conversations which ran on all day. The pros and cons of whether to get drunk or not to get drunk would invariably drive one of their mild-mannered friends to distraction. He would rise in spluttering protest to say, "Well! If I were going to get drunk, I'd be about it!" As often as not. . .they were about it. There were times, though, when a change of scenery seemed more to their liking. Like the time Rob and a friend got it into their heads that going to Montpelier, Vermont was a fine idea. Admiral Dewey had just returned from Manila and was to parade through the town. Being in the usual state of financial embarrassment, how to get there caused a fleeting problem, but being convinced that where there was a will, a way would certainly present itself, they hopped a freight. In the morning weary but mightily pleased with themselves, they descended from the boxcar in Montpelier. As they walked up the street toward the parade route they met a fellow Dartmouth student. The boys greeted him with as much dignity as their grimy faces and straw-flecked garments would allow. To their astonishment his "Hello" was most cordial. Wouldn't they like to go to the State House with him? There, from the reviewing stand, the boys viewed the parade with their Dartmouth friend, whose father was the Governor of Vermont. Through the carefree days at college he studied just about as much as he had to, to get by. But he was a good student none-the-less. Here he made friends whom he was to know and to see from time to time through his life. . .friends who did not always approve of his drinking prowess, but loved him in spite of it. His last years at Dartmouth were spent doing exactly what he wanted to do with little thought of the wishes or feelings of others. . .a state of mind which became more and more predominate as the years passed. Rob graduated in 1902. . ."summa cum laude" in the eyes of the drinking fraternity. The dean had a somewhat lower estimate. Now that he held a Dartmouth diploma, it seemed advisable that the willful young man settle down to making a living and a solid, secure future for himself. He wasn't ready to settle down to a job. The strong desire to become a medical doctor was still with him. His mother, who had never approved of this career for her son, hadn't altered her views. He went to work. For the next three years his business career was varied, if not successful. The first two years he worked for a large scale company; then he went to Montreal where he labored diligently at selling railway supplies, gas engines of all sorts and many other items of heavy hardware. He left Montreal and went to Boston where he was employed at Filene's. What his duties were there, have never been recorded. All through this three year period he was drinking as much as purse allowed, still without getting into any serious trouble. But he wasn't making any headway either. Whatever his duties at Filene's were, they certainly were not what he wanted to do. He still wanted to be a doctor. It was time he was about it. He quit his job at the store and that Fall entered the University of Michigan as a premedical student. Again he was free of all restraint and doing just as he wanted to do. Earnestly, he got down to serious business. . .the serious business of drinking as much as he could and still make it to class in the morning. His famous capacity for beer followed him to the Michigan campus. He was elected to membership in the drinking fraternity. Once again he displayed the wonders of his "patent throat" before his gaping brothers. He, who had boasted to his friends. . ."Never had a hangover in my life. . .began to have the morning after shakes. Many a morning Dr. Bob went to classes and even though fully prepared, turned away at the door and went back to the fraternity house. So bad were his jitters that he feared he would cause a scene if he should be called on. He went from bad to worse. No longer drinking for the fun of it, his life at Michigan became one long binge after another. In the Spring of his Sophomore year, Dr. Bob made up his mind that he could not complete his course. He packed his grip and headed South. After a month spent on a large farm owned by a friend, the fog began to clear from his brain. As he began to think more clearly he realized that it was very foolish to quit school. He decided to return and continue his work. The faculty had other ideas on the subject. They were, they told him, completely disgusted. It would require no effort at all to get along without his presence on the Michigan campus. After a long argument they allowed him to return to take his exams. He passed them creditably. After many more painful discussions, the faculty also gave him his credits. That Fall he entered Brush University as a Junior. Here his drinking became so much worse that his fraternity brothers felt forced to send for his father. The Judge made the long journey in a vain effort to get him straightened out. After those long disastrous binges when Dr. Bob was forced to face his father he had a deep feeling of guilt. His father always met the situation quietly, "Well, what did this one cost you?" he would ask. Oddly enough this feeling of guilt would come, not because he felt that he had hurt him in any way, but because his father seemed, somehow, to understand. It was this quiet, hopeless understanding that pained him deep inside. He was drinking more and more hard liquor, now, and coming up to his final exams he went on a particularly rough binge. When he went in to the examinations his hand trembled so badly he could not hold a pencil. He was, of course, called before the faculty. Their decision was that if he wished to graduate he must come back for two more quarters, remaining absolutely dry. This he was able to do. The faculty considered his work so creditable he was able to secure a much coveted internship in City Hospital in Akron, Ohio. The first two years in Akron, as a young interne, were free of trouble. Hard work took the place of hard drinking simply because there wasn't time for both. At one time during his internship he ran the hospital pharmacy by himself. This added to other duties took him all over the hospital. . .running up and down the stairs because the elevators were too slow. . .running here, rushing there as if the devil were after him. All this frenzied activity never failed to bring about an explosive, "Now where is that cadaverous young Yankee!" from one of the older doctors who became particularly fond of him. Though the two years as interne at City were hectic, Dr. Bob had time to learn much from the older men who were glad to share their knowledge with him. He began to perfect his own skills so that he might become a specialist, a surgeon. When his two years of internship were over he opened an office in The Second National Bank Building, in Akron. This was in 1912. His offices were in the same building until he retired from practice in 1948. Completely out on his own now, and again free to do as he chose--some money in his pocket and all the time in the world. It may have been that reaction set in from all the work, the irregular hours, the hectic life of an interne; it may have been real or imagined; whatever caused it, Dr. Bob developed considerable stomach trouble. The remedy for that was, of course, a couple of drinks. It didn't take him long to return to the old drinking habits. Now he began to know the real horror, the suffering of pain that goes with alcoholism. In hope of relief, he incarcerated himself at least a dozen times in one of the local sanitariums. After three years of this torture he ended up in a local hospital where they tried to help him. But he got his friends to smuggle him in a quart. Or, if that failed, it wasn't difficult for a man who knew his way around a hospital to steal the alcohol kept in the building. He got rapidly worse. Finally his father had to send a doctor out from St. Johnsbury to attempt to get him home. Somehow the doctor managed to get him back to the house he was born in, where he stayed in bed for two months before he could venture out. He stayed around town for about two months more, then returned to Akron to resume his practice. Dr. Bob was thoroughly scared, either by what had happened, by what the doctor had told him, or both. He went into one of his dry periods and stayed that way until the 18th Amendment was passed. In 1915 he went back to Chicago to marry Anne. He brought her back to Akron as his bride. The first three years of their married life were free of the unhappiness that was to come later. He became established in his practice. Their son Robert was born and life began to make a sensible pattern. Then the 18th Amendment was passed. Dr. Bob's reasoning was quite typical at this time, if not quite logical. It would make very little difference if he did take a few drinks now. The liquor that he and his friends had bought in amounts according to the size of their bank accounts, would soon be gone. He could come to no harm. He was soon to learn the facts of the Great American Experiment. The government obligingly made it possible for doctors to obtain unlimited supplies of liquor. Often during those black years, Dr. Bob, who held his profession sacred, would go to the phone book, pick out a name at random and fill out the prescription which would get him a pint of whisky. When all else failed there was the newly accredited member of American society, the bootlegger. A moderate beginning led to Dr. Bob's usual ending. During the next few years, he developed two distinct phobias. One was the fear of not sleeping and the other was the fear of running out of liquor. So began the squirrel-cage existence. Staying sober to earn enough money to get drunk. . .getting drunk to go to sleep. . .using sedatives to quiet the jitters. . .staying sober. . .earning money. . .getting drunk. . .smuggling home a bottle. . .hiding the bottle from Anne who became an expert at detecting hiding places This horrible nightmare went on for seventeen years. Somehow he had the good sense to stay away from the hospital and not to receive patients if he were drinking. He stayed sober every day until four o'clock, then came home. In this way he was able to keep his drinking problem from becoming common knowledge or hospital gossip. Through these mad years Dr. Bob was an active member of the City Hospital Staff and often he had occasion to go to St. Thomas Hospital, where in 1934, he became a member of the Courtesy Staff and in 1943, a member of the Active Staff. It was during one of these visits to St. Thomas, in 1928, that in the course of his duties, he met Sister Mary Ignatia. The meeting seemed of no particular consequence at the time. Many Sisters came to St. Thomas, then departed for duties elsewhere. Though neither of them knew it, the meeting was to have great importance to them both in the years to come. Sister Ignatia, like the others, never knew of the inner turmoil with which this man was beset. . ."He just always seemed different than the rest. . .he brought something with him when he came into a room. . .I never knew what it was, I just felt it. . ." So perhaps it was, then, that the Hand that moves us all was beginning to speed up the events that led to Dr. Bob's meeting with the stranger. Anne and the children now lived in a shambles of broken promises, given in all sincerity. Unable to see her friends, she existed on the bare necessities. About all she had left was her faith that her prayers for her husband would somehow be answered. It then happened that Dr. Bob and Anne were thrown in with a crowd of people who attracted Dr. Bob because of their poise, health and happiness. These people spoke without embarrassment, a thing he could never do. They all seemed very much at ease. Above all, they seemed happy. They were members of the Oxford Group. Self conscious, ill at ease most of the time, his health nearing the breaking point, Dr. Bob was thoroughly miserable. He sensed that these new-found friends had something that he did not have. He felt that he could profit from them. When he learned that what they had was something of a spiritual nature, his enthusiasm was somewhat dampened. Unfortunately his childhood background of church twice during the week and three times on Sunday had caused him to resolve that he would never appear in a church so long as he lived. He kept that resolve for 40 years except when his presence there was absolutely necessary. It helped some to find out that these people did not gather in a church but at each other's homes. That they might have the answer to his drinking problem never entered his head but he thought it could do him no harm to study their philosophy. For the next two and one half years he attended their meetings. And got drunk regularly! Anne became deeply interested in the group and her interest sustained Dr. Bob's. He delved into religious philosophy, he read the Scriptures, he studied spiritual interpretations, the lives of the Saints. Like a sponge he soaked up the spiritual philosophies of the ages. Anne kept her simple faith in prayer. . .and her courage--Dr. Bob got drunk. Then one Saturday afternoon, Henrietta called Anne. Could they come over to meet a friend of hers who might help Bob. . . At five o'clock Sunday evening they were at Henrietta's door. Dr. Bob faced Bill W. who said, "You must be awfully thirsty. . .this won't take us long. . ." From the moment Bill spoke to him, Dr. Bob knew that here was a man who knew what he was talking about. As the hours passed, Bill told of his experiences with alcohol; he told him of the simple message that a friend had brought. . . "Show me your faith and by my works I will show you mine. . ." Slowly, at first, then with sudden clarity, Dr. Bob began to understand. Bill had been able to control his drinking problem by the very means that Dr. Bob, himself had been trying to use. . .but there was a difference. The spiritual approach was as useless as any other if you soaked it up like a sponge and kept it all to yourself. True, Bill had been preaching his message at any drunk who would listen; he had been unsuccessful 'til now, but the important thing was that by giving his knowledge away, he, himself, was sober! There was one more short binge for Dr. Bob after that talk. On June 10, 1935, he took his last drink. It was high time now to put his house in order. With his quiet professional dignity, his ready humor, he got about it. Bill stayed on in Akron for several months, living with Dr. Bob and Anne. It wasn't long before they realized that they needed another drunk to help, if they could. The two men went over to City Hospital. They asked the nurse on "admitting" if she had an alcoholic in the hospital. They were taken to a room where a man lay strapped to the bed, writhing in agony, "Will this one do?" the nurse asked. "This one" would do very well. That human wreck to whom they talked that day and several times after, came out of the hospital, sober. Bill D. became the third member of the little group. . .AA Number Three! Dr. Bob now was a man with a purpose and the will to live. When the fog cleared out of his brain, his health had improved. He felt so good in the summer of 1935, at 56 years of age, that he took Bob and Sue out to the tennis courts one day. He played them six straight sets of tennis. The kids were done in. Anne began to live again, too. She was happy with her husband's new-found, joyful sobriety. She was no longer friendless, alone. Her kitchen table was almost always littered with coffee cups, a fresh pot-full sat waiting on the stove. Her faith, her belief in prayer and divine guidance went far to carry the men through that first summer. In the year 1935, there were few men alive who would accept the fact that alcoholism is a disease, which should be treated as such. Prejudice and ignorance were some of the problems facing Dr. Bob as he set about helping sick alcoholics with his professional skill and his new-found spiritual understanding. City Hospital was often filled with drunks smuggled in under trumped-up diagnosis. The old-timers who were hospitalized during those first years were admitted as suffering from "acute gastritis." Since he was on the courtesy staff at St. Thomas, run by the Sisters of Charity of St. Augustine, Dr. Bob felt that he might enlist the help of Sister Ignatia. He knew that it had never seemed right to her that a drunk should be turned away. She couldn't understand why a drunk on the verge of DT's was turned away but a drunk with a bashed-in head was admitted. They were both sick. They both needed help. His first approach to her on the subject was casual. He didn't tell her much nor did he make any promises. He just told her that he was trying to treat alcoholics by a new method. He and some other alcoholics, he said believed that alcoholism could be controlled by medical attention coupled with the spiritual. His remarks, though brief, made sense to her. It wasn't long before Dr. Bob brought in an alcoholic. Sister admitted him as having acute indigestion. He was put to bed in a double room. Then Dr. Bob told her quietly, "We'd like to have him in a private room in the morning." As if it weren't bad enough to have an illegal admittance on her conscience this man was asking for a private room! Morning found the patient peacefully asleep, on a cot in the room where flowers were trimmed and arranged for patients' rooms! After that more and more "acute gastritis" cases woke up in St. Thomas Hospital. In August, 1939, Dr. Bob brought a patient to Sister for admittance. So far as is known, he was the first alcoholic ever to be admitted into a general hospital under the diagnosis: Alcoholism. Dr. Bob never could remember just what the policy of the hospital was at that time, nor did he recall ever having asked. Since that August day there have been 4800 cases admitted into St. Thomas. Until Dr. Bob retired, he visited the ward each day to give personal attention to each patient. His cheerful, "Well, what can I do for you?" was heard in the ward for the last time, on Christmas, 1949. On that day Sister played the organ for him and showed him the beautiful new chimes. . .talked of her hopes of more beds and furniture for a lounge outside the ward. The chimes tell the story of the bitter criticism of 10 years ago to the complete co-operation from everyone connected with the hospital today. But so long as Sister Ignatia goes about her duties on the admitting desk and in the AA ward, whenever a drunk is brought in a call will come, "Sister, you'd better come. One of your boys is downstairs!" Dr. Bob and his first few red-eyed disciples continued to meet with the Oxford Group. But they were a 'special interest' bloc. The unpredictable nature of the alcoholic and his preoccupation with the earthy realities of drinking and drunkenness, led the tactful Doctor to the idea of separate meetings. Without fuss or bother, Dr. Bob announced that there would be a meeting for the alcoholics. . .if any of them cared to come. When the meeting came to order, all of the little band were there. Dr. Bob put his foot on the rung of a dining room chair, identified himself as an alcoholic and began reading The Sermon on the Mount. Still not known as Alcoholics Anonymous, this was the first Akron meeting for alcoholics only. Word of the work being done in Akron began to spread to nearby Cleveland. Men began coming over to be hospitalized in St. Thomas or City Hospital. The growth of the group speeded up. By 1939, they were meeting in Akron's Kings School. They had long since outgrown Anne's small house. Through all the growth, the hurts that come with growing pains, the gossip, the little grievances, Dr. Bob listened to them all. Occasionally, he advised. He became the "father confessor" to the group. So sacred to him were confidences, that he would not break them for anybody or anything. Anne used to tease him about be-being "so close-mouthed" that she claimed she didn't know a thing that was going on. She laughingly told him that she would divorce him unless he told her some of the things he knew. . .but she was quick to retract her statement because she knew, even for her, he would not break a confidence. By 1939, there were enough men coming to Akron from Cleveland to make it seem advisable to start a Cleveland Group. The first meeting was held in May of that year. The break away from the Akron group brought with it disagreements. The only thing that kept them on an even keel, say those pioneers, was the sound wisdom of Dr. Bob. How he kept his sanity seemed a miracle. There he was, they say, in the midst of a bunch of unstable people, not yet dry behind the cars. It may have been because he would never allow one man to speak ill of another unless that man were present, that the Cleveland off-spring survived. By the end of 1939, Cleveland had proved a big point in AA history. It had proved, first that one group could break from another. This they proved conclusively because by the end of the year there was not one Cleveland group. . .there were three! The two splits had been brought about by differences of opinion. It seemed that no matter what happened the group activity would go on. Cleveland proved, too, that alcoholics could be sobered up on what almost amounted to a mass production basis. By 1944, the Cleveland membership was well past 1000. Dr. Bob's wise counsel was right. . ."there's no use worrying about these things. As long as people have faith and believe, this will go on." In the years that came after that meeting on Mother's Day, 1935, Dr. Bob gave freely of himself to all who came to ask for help, to seek advice. . .to laugh or to cry. In so helping others, he began to rebuild himself. Professionally, he became loved and respected by all who worked with him. . .socially he was once again the kind, dignified man who Anne and their friends knew and admired. Dr. Bob, as Anne had known him to be, was possessed of calm professional dignity which gave courage and heart to his patients. In the years to come, this dignity, was to play a large part in the lives of the hundreds who came to his door. Never given to loose talk, Dr. Bob controlled his tongue as surely, as steadily and as potently as he did his scalpel. He used the gift of speech with the same concise economy, the sureness of purpose, that went into each deft movement of his surgeon's hands. More often than not his observations were sprinkled with salty humor. Dr. Bob had the rare quality of being able to laugh at himself and with others. As much a part of him as his quiet professional dignity, was this keen sense of humor. He spoke with a broad New England accent and was given to dropping a remark or telling a riotous story absolutely deadpan. This sometimes proved disconcerting to those who did not know him well, especially when he referred to the poised, charming Anne, as "The Frail." Seldom did he call his friends by their given names. . .it was Abercrombie to those men of whom he was particularly fond--or Sugar to close women friends. . .a friend in the loan business was Shylock. This tall "cadaverous looking Yankee" who held his profession sacred and walked through life with dignity would tell anyone who questioned him as to his hopes, his ambitions. . .that all he ever wanted in life was "to have curly hair, to tap dance, to play the piano and to own a convertible." One of the very early Akron members says that the first impression he had of Dr. Bob was of a gruff person, a bit forbidding, with a habit of looking over his glasses. He gave the impression of looking right through to your soul. This AA says that he got the impression that Dr. Bob knew exactly what he was thinking. . .and found out later that he did! When he met Dr. Bob for the first time, what was offered seemed to the new man, a perfect answer to an immediate and serious problem. . .it was something to tell a boss who, at the time was none too sympathetic to his drinking. Dr. Bob knew that the man wasn't being honest with him, and he knew he was kidding himself. No lectures were given, no recriminations. Dr. Bob began to make a habit of stopping by the man's house after office hours. About twice a week he stopped for coffee and the two men discussed. . .honesty. Then Dr. Bob suggested that the man stop kidding himself. Their discussion moved on to faith. . .faith in God. The new man went to his employer and, for the first time, saw the practical power of real honesty. A problem which had looked insurmountable, vanished, just melted away. Dr. Bob always began his day with a prayer and meditation over some familiar Bible verse, then he set about his work in "My Father's vineyard. ." The work in the "vineyard" was not easy in those years. No "preaching" would have served, either to the alcoholics who came his way or to those skeptic members of his profession. He began, now to make AA a way of life. His life began to be an example of patience and serenity for all to see and to benefit by if they so chose. It was too early in the years of education on alcoholism to be able to speak of the disease above a whisper. . .Dr. Bob and Sister Ignatia developed a little code. . .the boys on the third floor were called the Frails, while the surgical patients were spoken of in the most proper professional terms. Often while he went about the business of washing up he had to listen in silence to bitter remarks from his fellow doctors. . ."Too bad this hospital is so full that a fellow can't get a patient in. . .always room for the drunks though--" In the years to come he was to live to hear himself introduced as the co-founder of "the greatest," "most wonderful," "must momentous movement of all times. . ." For these tributes he was grateful, but he laughed them off and upon one occasion was heard to remark. . ."The speaker certainly takes in a lot of territory and plenty of time. . ." In his drinking days, Dr. Bob was two people, two personalities. After his return to sobriety he remained two personalities. As he made his rounds through the hospitals he was the medical practitioner but as he entered the door of the alcoholic ward he became, Dr. Bob, a man eager, willing and able to help his fellowman. Those who worked with him say that as he left the hospital each day they felt that two men went out the door. . .one a great M.D., the other a great man. Dr. Bob and Anne lived simply and without pretense in their modest home. Here they shared the joys of parenthood, the sorrows, the companionship of their friends. He was an industrious man, willing to work for the creature comforts that he loved. He accepted with humility any material wealth that came his way. Something of a perfectionist, he loved diamonds, not for possession, but for the beauty of their brilliant perfection. He would go out of his way to look at a diamond owned by another. . .he would go out of his way, too, to look at a favorite view of his beloved mountains and sea. If he had any pride in possession it was for big gleaming automobiles. He owned, through his life, many of them. He treated them with the care that their mechanical perfection deserved. The car that he probably loved the most was the last one he bought just before the end. . .the convertible. The car that symbolized a lifetime ambition. His friends will remember him in the summer of 1950, at 71, speeding through the streets of Akron in his new yellow Buick convertible--the long slim lines made even more rakish with the top down. No hat, his face to the sun, into the driveway he sped, pebbles flying, tires screeching, he'd swoosh to a stop! Fate, however, permitted him only 150 miles of this joyous "hot-rod" driving. It was with reluctance, that summer, that he gave in to his illness. For the forty fifth year he returned to his home in Vermont. . .in the staid and sedate sedan. . ."I won't be able to see the mountains so well. . .but my legs are a little long for that roadster. . ." Until the last summer his days were spent in the routine of the hospital. . .his office and his club, for recreation. During almost all of his adult life in Akron, Dr. Bob lunched at the City Club. In his drinking days, it was often to hide away in a room until he was found by friends. But in later years it was to enjoy the companionship of his good friends, some of whom joined him in his new-found sobriety, others had no need of the help he could give them. . .other than the pleasure of his friendship. Noon would almost always find him at the same table in the corner of the men's dining room. There, for more than ten years he was served by the same waitress, Nancy. Dr. Bob always greeted her with, "How's my chum today. . ."They were good friends. As Nancy served him his simple lunch of melon or grapefruit, soup, milk or coffee and his favorite Boston CreamPie, they discussed her problems. Once, Nancy, who was ill at the time, became uncontrollably angry and threw a cracker basket at another waiter. Dr. Bob admonished. . ."Now, now Chum, don't let little things bother you. . ."The next day he sent her "As a Man Thinketh So Is He" and "The Runner's Bible." Nancy always looked forward to serving Dr. Bob and his friends. . ."he was such a good fellow. . ."Often when there was much discussion, arguments and pros and cons, Nancy would ask him why he didn't say something, to which he'd answer. . ."Too much being said already!" To Nancy, Dr. Bob was "such a good kind man. . .he had such a simple faith in prayer." After luncheon, if time permitted, Dr. Bob joined his cronies for a game of Rum or Bridge. He was expert at both; and he always played to win. The man who would give you his last dollar, though his own creditors might be hard at his heels, would take your last cent away from you, if he could, in a card game. . .but he never got angry. He had the habit of keeping up a steady chatter through the game, his cronies say that it could have been annoying except that it was always so funny that you had to laugh. Dr. Bob vowed that it was silly to take the game seriously. . .never could see how these tournament players got so serious about this thing. Once when he and Anne were in Florida, he was airing his views to a stranger on the seriousness of some bridge players. The subject had come up because a bridge tournament was scheduled for that day. The two men sat together discussing bridge until they talked themselves into entering the tournament. . .since they had nothing better to do. The stranger and Dr. Bob made a good showing among the "serious" players. They won that afternoon but upset their opponents to such a degree as to cause one to remark, "If you had bid right and played right you never would have won!" Whereupon Dr. Bob said, "Quite so," as he accepted the first prize. For some obscure reason, Dr. Bob always carried a pocket-full of silver. It may have been a hangover from the insecure squirrel-cage days of the eternal fight to keep enough money in his pocket to buy a quart or it may have been just because he liked to hear the jingle but there were times when he had as much as ten dollars in his pocket. He had one particular friend with whom he would match a fifty cent piece by way of greeting. No matter where the two met, each would silently reach into his pocket, draw out the silver and match. Silently the winner took the money from the other. The first time Dr. Bob underwent serious surgery, he could not have visitors. His coin-matching friend came to the hospital to call. He was met there by Emma, the woman friend and nurse who cared for Anne. Emma met the visitor in the guest lounge. She greeted him silently with a coin in her palm. . .silently they matched. Dr. Bob was the richer by fifty cents. This man of two personalities would weep as he told you of his fear that his skill would not enable him to save the life of a charity patient; then again he would weep as he told of what seemed to be a miraculous recovery. He would weep, too, from laughter at some story which struck his fancy. As his son, Bob, grew into manhood, Dr. Bob shared with him the incidents and the fun of the day. He could hardly wait, it seemed, to get home to tell young Bob some story picked up at the hospital. Young Bob tells of how he would tell a good story, or listen to one, then lean back in his chair to laugh until the tears streamed down his cheeks. Then with a familiar gesture, he took off his glasses to wipe the tears away. . .still chuckling. "Our home was a happy one, in those days," said young Bob, "I never heard a cross word between my mother and my father." The war, then marriage took young Bob from home and to Texas where he now lives. Bob laughs as he tells of his father's first meeting with his bride-to-be. He looked her up and down then remarked, in his dry and disconcerting fashion; "She's all right, son. She's built for speed and light house-keeping!" Young Bob often remarked to his father about his seemingly endless knowledge of medicine, philosophies and general bits of information. To which Dr. Bob would reply, "Well, I should know something, I've read for at least an hour every night of my adult life--drunk or sober." Sometime during the course of all the reading, he delved into Spiritualism. . .he even tried the mysteries of the Ouija board. He felt that in some far distant centuries, the science of the mind would be so developed as to make possible contact between the living and the dead. All the reading of the years had included studies on alcoholism, too. This scientific knowledge coupled with his experiences with alcoholics including himself might well have led him to a strictly scientific approach. He could, with ease, have spoken of statistics, cures and the like because he undoubtedly listened to more "case histories" than any other man alive. He listened patiently to each man in the ward, to every person who came to his home for advice, and there were hundreds. He remained plain Dr. Bob, alcoholic, who came to believe that the disorder was more on the psychological and spiritual side rather than the physical. The thinking of the alcoholic patient was all beclouded, his attitudes were wrong, his philosophy of life was all mixed up, he had no spiritual life. . .the whole man was sick. As one man said, "He came to me in the hospital, he sat quietly by my bed and talked, then he prayed to his God for me. . .that's what stuck. . .that he took the time and interest and the compassion to pray for me. . ." The happy years of Dr. Bob's sobriety were marred, at last, by Anne's illness and blindness. Cataracts were completely covering her eyes, so that she could not see. . .even after surgery her last years were spent in shadows. Dr. Bob began, then, to be her eyes as much as he could. Still in medical practice, though, he could not be with her every hour. It was then, in his own quiet way that he found a solution. In 1942, years before Anne's blindness had become serious, two strangers came to his office, a man and his wife, Emma. The man was seeking the help that Dr. Bob could give him. The three sat in his office and talked for almost an hour, while in the reception room waited the "paying patients." Occasionally, after that first meeting, Dr. Bob and Anne stopped by their house; they saw them each week at the AA meeting in King School. Dr. Bob knew that Anne's blindness was fast growing worse and that she needed daily care. . .he knew too, that she would be unhappy to think of herself as a burden to anyone. It came vacation time, the children were gone which meant that the house must be left empty. . .the dog to his own devices. What better plan than the nice couple, who lived down the street should come to the house while they were on vacation. . .to keep it in running order and watch over the dog? Would the couple consider throwing some clothes into a bag and going over to the house? So it was for eight years Emma, a nurse, and her husband came from time to time to stay at Dr. Bob's house. . .until it was necessary for Emma to be with Anne at all times. In the last years of Anne's illness she kept house for them and during the day, when Dr. Bob was at his office, she watched over Anne. Through those last years together Anne, though in ill health, stood ever ready to give words of hope and encouragement to all who came to her door. Her first thoughts were for others, never herself, no matter how badly she might feel. When Dr. Bob and Anne prepared for their last trip together, Anne said, "You know, I don't really care to go but Dad wants too, and he may never be able to make the trip again. . .it will make him happy." Of the same trip, Dr. Bob said of Anne, "I don't really want to go, but Anne wants it. It will make her happy." Each took the long trip feeling that it was making the other happy. It was in June, 1949, just after their return, that Anne passed away. At the time of her passing, Dr. Bob, said, "I will miss her terribly, but she would have had it no other way. Had she survived this attack she would have been in the hospital for months. . .then there would have been months at home in bed. . .she would have hated being a burden. . .she could not have stood it." In the summer of 1948, Dr. Bob found that he, too, was suffering from a serious malady. He closed his office and retired from practice, so that he and Anne could live their last days together, quietly. For a time after Anne died, there was some indecision in the house. It was understood that Emma and her husband, who had by this time been spending most of their time at the house, would leave and go to their own home. Dr. Bob was to get a housekeeper or a nurse. He did interview one woman, but his heart wasn't in it. It was then that they all felt that Anne had reached out and made their decision for them. For the first few weeks after Anne's death, Dr. Bob and Emma dreamed of Anne almost every night. To Emma, she seemed troubled. One night Emma's dream of Anne was so real as to be almost a vision. Emma knew what she must do. Next morning she faced Dr. Bob. "Do you want us to stay with you?" His answer was quick and simple, "Yes." None of them dreamed of Anne again. So it was that the couple who once came to Dr. Bob for help, came to spend the last year and one half with him. . .they gave up their apartment and lived with him until he too, passed on. Ever the professional man, Dr. Bob watched the progress of his disease each day. When at last, he knew that the malady was malignant and hopeless, he accepted it with calm and lack of resentment. He felt no bitterness at the doctors who had failed to make an early diagnosis. . ."Why should I blame them? I've probably made a lot of fatal mistakes myself!" Between the times that he was forced to stay in bed or to go to the hospital to undergo surgery, he lived his life as normally as possible and got as much enjoyment out of it as he could. After Anne's death, he and a good friend drove to the West Coast, where they renewed old acquaintances; then they went on to his home in Vermont. . .and to Maine. Where ever he went AAs showered him with attention and kindness. Of this he said, "Sometimes these good people do so much for me, it is embarrassing. I have done nothing to deserve it, I have only been an instrument through which God worked." At home Dr. Bob settled down to enjoying his friends and the things he could do for them. . .between his serious attacks he enjoyed "Emmy's" good food. "I never saw a man who could eat so much sauerkraut. . .he would go without his dessert, just to have another helping!" Then came the television set. Emma's husband went to Dr. Bob one day telling him that he was in the mood to buy a television set. "Well," said Dr. Bob, who didn't like television. . .would have no part of it. . ."I guess if you can buy the set, I can give you the chimney for the aerial." The beautiful new set arrived in due time but Dr. Bob would have none of it. He absolutely refused to look at it. Then one night, as he lay on the davenport. Emma caught him peeking around his newspaper! The "sneaking a look" went on for days until he succumbed and became a fan. After that he spent long pleasant hours watching the TV shows. . .especially the tap dancers. . ."Hmph," he'd grunt, "that's easy. . .nothing to it. . .anybody can do it!" At the time of the Louis: Charles fight, he stayed in bed all day so that he would be rested enough to see the fight that evening! As a patient, Dr. Bob behaved himself very well except for one thing. He refused to take his pills as they were scheduled. Instead he put his old "patent throat" to use. He kept a shot glass, which he filled with all the pills he was to take for the day. While Emma looked on in awe, even as the brothers of yore, he'd throw back his head and toss off the pills at one gulp. . ."What difference does it make? They all go to the same place anyway!" That he knew the exact progress of his disease was evident to Emma and those close to him, although he never complained, even when in pain. After a doctor's call he would say to Emma, "Sugar, don't kid me now. This is the end isn't it?" Emma always answered with, "Now you know better. You know exactly what's going on!" During the Spring and Summer of 1950, when he had to husband his strength and measure it out carefully, Dr. Bob expressed the wish to do three things. He wanted to attend the First International Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous in Cleveland. He wanted, once again, to go to St. Johnsbury, Vermont, for his vacation. And he wanted to spend Christmas with his son in Texas. . .two of his wishes were fulfilled. As the days passed and the date of the Conference drew nearer, he began more and more, to conserve his energy. Most of his days were spent in his room. . .on the davenport watching the TV cap-dancers and listening to the pianists. Those who were close to him watched him grow weaker. . .then rally. . . While the last, mad days of preparations for the Conference were going on in Cleveland, it seemed, at times, to his close friends, that he would not gather the strength to do the thing that he so much wanted to do. Even to the last minutes before the Big Meeting, on Sunday, it was doubtful whether he would be granted the vigor he needed to appear in the Cleveland Auditorium to say the few words that he wanted to say to the thousands waiting to hear and see him. Those gathered that hot Sunday afternoon, now know, that when at last Dr. Bob joined the others on the platform they were witnessing another milestone of the movement built on simple faith and works. . .At the time, this throng was perhaps too close to history to know the full meaning of what was taking place before them. . .Now he came forward to speak to the thousands. . .with quiet dignity. . .even as that night so long ago, when in Anne's living room, he put his foot on the rung of a dining room chair to read The Sermon on the Mount. . .he leaned forward against the lectern to say: "My good friends in AA and of AA. I feel I would be very remiss if I didn't take this opportunity to welcome you here to Cleveland not only to this meeting but those that have already transpired. I hope very much that the presence of so many people and the words that you have heard will prove an inspiration to you--not only to you but may you be able to impart that inspiration to the boys and girls back home who were not fortunate enough to be able to come. In other words, we hope that your visit here has been both enjoyable and profitable. "I get a big thrill out of looking over a vast sea of faces like this with a feeling that possibly some small thing that I did a number of years ago played an infinitely small part in making this meeting possible. I also get quite a thrill when I think that we all had the same problem. We all did the same things. We all get the same results in proportion to our zeal and enthusiasm and stick-to-itiveness. If you will pardon the injection of a personal note at this time, let me say that I have been in bed five of the last seven months and my strength hasn't returned as I would like, so my remarks of necessity will be very brief. "But there are two or three things that flashed into my mind on which it would be fitting to lay a little emphasis; one is the simplicity of our Program. Let's not louse it all up with Freudian complexes and things that are interesting to the scientific mind but have very little to do with our actual AA work. Our 12 Steps, when simmered down to the last, resolve themselves into the words love and service. We understand what love is and we understand what service is. So let's bear those two things in mind. "Let us also remember to guard that erring member--the tongue, and if we must use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance. "And one more thing; none of us would be here today if somebody hadn't taken time to explain things to us, to give us a little pat on the back, to take us to a meeting or two, to have done numerous little kind and thoughtful acts in our behalf. So let us never get the degree of smug complacency so that we're not willing to extend or attempt to, that help which has been so beneficial to us, to our less fortunate brothers. Thank you very much." As he returned to his seat on the platform, those who watched could easily see that the exertion of saying the brief words of counsel had left him physically weak and spent. Try as he would, he was forced to leave after a few moments. In consternation thousands of eyes followed him as he left the stage. He was driven back to Akron, that afternoon by a friend. As Dr. Bob was helped into the automobile, he seemed physically very near complete exhaustion. As they drove the thirty odd miles from Cleveland to Akron, some inner strength seemed to revive Dr. Bob so that by the time they drove up to his home he was almost his old self. The man who seemed on the point of collapse only an hour before, said "Well, if I'm going to be ready to go to Vermont next week, I'd better be about it." Shortly after the Conference, he did go to Vermont. Dr. Bob, his son and his daughter-in-law, drove, in the sedan, to his boyhood home, where he visited old friends for the last time. . .and worried all the time for fear the convertible would not be comfortable for Emma and her husband to drive on their long vacation trip. . ."Should've taken it myself. . ." Upon his return home, he was admitted into St. Thomas hospital for a minor operation. . .one of so many that had come during the last years. Then home to Emma's good cooking and rest. In November, his doctors found it advisable to perform another of the minor operations. This time, he went to City Hospital, where in 1910 he had come as an interne and where later, he and Bill had talked to "the third man." On Wednesday, November 15, a day after the operation, an old friend called and spoke to him. "Why, I'm just fine Abercrombie, just fine. . ." Close to noontime on Thursday, November 16, 1950, he was resting. The nurse in attendance stood by his bed, watching. . .waiting for any change that might come. Dr. Bob, M.D., lifted his hand to the light. . .with professional calm he studied the color. . .with a final confirming glance, he spoke. . ."You had better call the family. . .this is it. . ." --so reconciled with his brothers, he placed his gifts upon the alter and went his way. . Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: shakey1aa To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 1:37 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950? In the 1950 City Directory of Akron, I see Dr. R H Smith as owner of 855 Ardmore Ave and a phone number of UN-2436. I also have a listing at the address for a person named L J Knisely. Was this person a relative of the Smith's or perhaps a live-in nurse or just a boarder? Does any one have any knowledge of this person? Yours in Service Shakey Mike Gwirtz See you in Niagara Falls NY Sept 11-14 2008 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4869. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers and Betty Love From: Phil . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2008 1:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Peter Tippett wrote: > > Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom > Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of > the 12x12, please? > > Thanks, > Pete Tippett > The following information comes out of 'The Soul of Sponsorship' The Friendship of Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters. -- By Robert Fitzgerald, S.J....Hazelden Pittman Archives Press... Chapter 9--The Spiritual Exercises and the Traditions-- Pg.55-56 On May 20, 1952, Bill wrote to Dowling with a draft copy of the 12 essays on the tradi- tions... "We'd very much like your criticisms on the material enclosed. Do we run across the grain of your ideas anywhere, do you care for the writing style and is the structural situation depicted in conformity with your observation of AA?" Bill mentioned he had good help from some writers, Tom Powers,Betty Love, and Jack Alexander. He wanted Dowling's input,"no punches pulled," and ended the letter with a request for The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius. Phil M. Denver area AA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4870. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat From: arcchi88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2008 7:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks for the kind response, I am familiar with the fact that Father Ralph Pfau started the retreat there. However, the retreat that is going on there still is run by Evans Avenue (I think) of Chicago. They are apparently celebrating the 50th year of holding these retreats this summer. I do not know and have been unable to find any history on how this retreat was started in 1958. Of course there is a gap of ten or eleven years between the start of retreats there by Father Pfau. Did father Pfau hand it off to Evans Ave or another group? I haven't found any information that would indicate that Father Pfau continued to have the retreats at Saint Joseph's so far. Any additional information is greatly appreciated! Thanks again, Tom C. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "arcchi88" wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone has any history on > a retreat that is held annually at St. Joseph's > College in Rensselaer, Indiana. > > There have got to be some people who have > attended in years past who can tell a story > or two!!! > > If you have ever attended this retreat and > have a story to tell, big or small, please > pass it on! > > Thanks! > > Tom C. > > - - - - From the moderator, Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana): If the present retreat was started by the Evans Avenue Group in Chicago, then have you looked at this? "Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary- South Bend Axis: The Stories and Memories of Early Black Leaders Told in Their Own Words" http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack2.html http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack3.html That article doesn't mention them having retreats at Rensselaer, Indiana, but it might give some background. John Shaifer lived in Gary, Indiana, but was connected with the Evans Avenue Group in Chicago: http://hindsfoot.org/ngary1js.html http://hindsfoot.org/ngary2js.html John went one of Father Ralph Pfau's retreats every year for at least fifteen years, if my memory is correct, at Gethsemani Abbey in Kentucky, and did his fifth step with Father Pfau. I don't know whether John went to the retreat in Rensselaer, but I am sure that the people who organized the Rensselaer retreat would have known him, if they were from the Evans Avenue Group. So there might be a linkage (via that connection) between Father Ralph's early retreats and the Evans Avenue retreats. Evans Avenue is still going strong, by the way, or at least they were when I visited there three or four years ago, although they had moved their fellowship house from its original location on Evans Avenue in Chicago. They had a lot of valuable archival materials there, which possibly would have the answers to all your questions. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4871. . . . . . . . . . . . They seem to have been born that way From: nats_attitude . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2008 10:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way" means in the contextual form it was written in the fifth chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4873. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that way From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 4:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not capable of rigorous honesty. If one looks at the DSM IV criteria for sociopaths, or considers the term "Congenital Liar" "born that way", one might have a pretty fair understanding of Bill's meaning in use of that phrase. Lest there be an outcry to my reference to "sociopaths", it is generally understood that they may not have a conscience, but can be "taught" one. My old Sponsor might have answered with a favorite saying of his, "Alcoholics are natural-born liars, they'll climb a tree to tell a lie when they could stand on the ground and tell the truth!" but then he also contended that rigorous practice of and adherence to 12 Step Principles would cure that condition. Sherry C.H. - - - - Original Message from: nats_attitude I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way" means in the contextual form it was written in the fifth chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4874. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that way From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 9:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I could be way off on this but on face value there seems to be a high probability that it contextually means:"They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way." Cheers Arthur - - - - Original Message from: nats_attitude I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way" means in the contextual form it was written in the fifth chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4875. . . . . . . . . . . . Groups looking to secede From: dino . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 12:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was there ever a time in AA history where certain groups or factions made an effort to secede en masse? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4876. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA in Vladivostok From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2008 9:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is someone going to let Sergey know about anonymity & that AA is NOT self-help? Thanks. Just Love, Barefoot Bill -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of robin_foote Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:18 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA in Vladivostok Anonymous Alcoholics Will Gather in Vladivostok This public association is a part of the World community of anonymous alcoholics, which was founded in 1935 in the USA VLADIVOSTOK, February 10, vladivostoktimes.com The self-help society of anonymous alcoholics of Vladivostok "Welcome" celebrates its 15th anniversary, the newspaper "Vladivostok" writes. The celebration of the anniversary and intro- ducing the society will be held on Saturday at noon in the Primorye State Arsenyev museum. This public association is a part of the World community of anonymous alcoholics, which was founded in 1935 in the USA. Welcome members are trained on the program "12 steps." Every person can apply with his problem to this association and get a free advice. In these years thousands of Primorye residents have found support. Everyone who came with his own trouble could see that he is not lone in this world. The trainings are held not only with those who are tired of taking alcohol or drugs, but also with their relatives. "Unfortunately, not everyone is ready to refuse of his destructive vices," one of the members of the group of self-help of anonymous alcoholics Sergey YAKOVLEV claims. "But it is never late to do the first step." http://vladivostoktimes.ru/show.php?id=21451 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4877. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: They seem to have been born that way From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2008 9:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "nats_attitude" wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone can tell me what > the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem > to have been born that way" means in the > contextual form it was written in the fifth > chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works." > It depends on what you mean by context. For comparison, here is something form an article on alcoholism treatment which appeared in the July 1938 issue of Harper's. That places it close in time to the writing of the Big Book. The author, Genevieve Parkhurst, later wrote an article on AA for Harper's . "It would be misleading to claim that all forms of alcoholism may be healed by this or any other method. Some human beings are so naturally unequal to the conflicts of living that, in the light of present knowledge, little can be done for them except to protect them from the disturbing issues which cause them to drink. There are also the extreme cases, the psychotics whom alcohol has removed into the obscure recesses of the abnormal. Their cure is problematical and is the business of the psychiatrist and physician alone. For any layman to attempt to explain such cases would be dangerous; even the most distinguished medical scientists still disagree about them. "By far the greater number of heavy drinkers, however, belong in a class whose ailment can be more easily corrected. They are the men and women--we all know them--in whom the habit of excess has grown until their health, their business, their home life, and their peace of mind are in jeopardy. They are those whom the psychologist, Charles H. Durfee, who has been successful in healing them, mentions in his book To Drink or Not To Drink as "problem drinkers." For them there is more than an even chance of cure in a comparatively new kind of mental therapy now being practiced by trained psychologists who, through study and trial, have brought it to a high level of efficacy." The article later quotes Richard R. Peabody as a pathfinder in the field, who said that in his experience "seldom did a child whose parents maintained an intelligent attitude toward him mature into a drunkard." Evidently when Parkhurst used the expression "trained psycho- logists" she included some people who would be considered lay therapists and who were also known to the AA pioneers. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4878. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that way From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2008 4:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII British criminal court judges used to follow the McNaughton (I think that's how it's spelled) rule which decreed that some accused were incapable of entering a plea (guilty or not guilty) to charges because they were unable to distinguish between right and wrong (psychopaths etc). I guess the accused had to be diagnosed as such by a psychiatrist. - - - - From: hartsell@etex.net Not capable of rigorous honesty.If one looks at the DSM IV criteria for sociopaths, or considers the term "Congenital Liar" "born that way", one might have a pretty fair understanding of Bill's meaning in use of that phrase. Lest there be an outcry to my reference to "sociopaths", it is generally understood that they may not have a conscience, but can be "taught" one.My old Sponsor might have answered with a favorite saying of his, "Alcoholics are natural-born liars, they'll climb a tree to tell a lie when they could stand on the ground and tell the truth!" but then he alsocontended that rigorous practice of and adherence to 12 Step Principles would cure that condition.Sherry C.H. - - - - Original Message from: nats_attitude I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way" means in the contextual form it was written in the fifth chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4879. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: They seem to have been born that way From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 3:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The English would call that a droll reply. Nothing beats commons sense. What did Doctor Bob say about Freudian complexes and looking for hidden meanings? Keep it simple. Be gentle to your minds Dudley - - - - I could be way off on this but on face value there seems to be a high probability that it contextually means:"They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way." Cheers Arthur - - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) OH I LOVED THIS ANSWER. Quite often, I think, many people try to read between the lines of the Big Book, entirely missing the obvious message of the little black marks . . . the actual words. The message of the book means exactly what those words say. Perhaps searcching for an "easier softer way" or at least an excuse? L In my experience, Alcoholics Annonymous (the Book) is a very simple approach for a compli- cated people! It says what it says. Period. No amount of interpretation will change that, I think. Nor does it need to. Thanks for the good laugh, Arthur. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 - - - - From: "Murray Eaton" (meaton1287 at rogers.com) I think Arthur S has summed it up concisely. - - - - Original Message from: nats_attitude I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way" means in the contextual form it was written in the fifth chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4880. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member introduction and group response From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 3:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I came in NYC area in 1959. There were no "Hi, Tom" cries then in that area. I first bumped into the thing, I think in California in the late 60s when visiting out there in the Anaheim area. It was universal when I got to Texas 20 years ago. And it doesn't much bother me. Neither does the chanting at the end, "It works if.. ." But I admit to being positively annoyed by people who in a small discussion meeting insist on repeating, every time they speak, tic-like, "My name is . . . and I'm an alcoholic," apparently supposing since they last talked two minutes ago we had all forgotten that. BTW I always use my full name since everybody did in NYC in 1959. In this as in all else I defer to the power of the individual group. There appears to be no way to "fix" all this from on High. Tom W. Texas - - - - From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Sgt. Bill W. told me that in the late 1940's and early 1950's, people in some AA groups introduced themselves by saying "my name is XXXXX" and then giving their sobriety date. In other AA groups, they said "my name is XXXXX and I'm an alcoholic." He said that they did it the first way on Long Island (in the New York City area) in the late 1940's, and that, although he certainly did not know how it was done all over the country, he had the impression that saying "I'm an alcoholic" was more midwestern. Bill also clearly felt that people who went around worrying all the time about saying "exactly the right words" were totally failing to understand the true spirit of the AA program and the twelve steps, and would get impatient with people who fussed about that kind of thing too much. (Since he was getting a 50% success rate in his work with alcoholics at Lackland in the 1950's, he presumably had some good ideas about what was important and what was not important.) I would be interested in knowing if either version (giving your sobriety date or saying "I'm an alcoholic") was practiced in the 1930's and early 1940's. And if so, where? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) - - - - From: "grault" (GRault at yahoo.com) I know from a New Orleans old-timer who sobered up in New York City, that the "Hi, ---!" response started as early as the '60s I believe . . . certainly the "I'm an alcoholic" introduction had long preceded that. I heard long ago that it was just a short way of "qualifying" for being at a closed meeting. But all my memories of what I've heard about it are sketchy and very incomplete. Gerry R. New Orleans IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4881. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat From: Phil . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 8:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII About 12 Step Retreats: I'm not familiar with your part of the country. Out west here, Denver, Seattle, etc ... just look up Jesuit Retreat House. Jesuits are the Spiritual Order that Fr Ed Dowling, Bill W's sponsor was. If you read Pass It On...Bill's Story and the Story of AA...You'll read about the first meeting between Bill and his sponsor in 1940. Fr. Ed traveled all the way from St. Louis to New York to see if Bill intentionally borrowed from the Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius (the founder of the Jesuit order) to form the 12 Step Program of recovery. Bill did not, but the Program is remarkably the same as the Exercises. So the 12 step Program has kind of been swallowed up by the Jesuits. Almost anywhere you can find a Jesuit Retreat House, you can find a 12 Step Retreat. Phil M. Denver area AA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4882. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2008 11:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Didn't Session Mexico, in August of 1986, comprising 2500 groups, secede from Mexican GSO? I remember hearing about the Mexican army confiscating the Big Books that were printed without the approval of GSO in Mexico and the Director of Session Mexico was put in Mexican prison for a year. The GSO books were costing too much for the average Mexican AA member to afford so the thousand or so groups in Mexico City broke away and printed Big Books that were affordable. My under- standing is that Mexican GSO had the approval of GSO in New York City To do so. Perhaps an AAHL past delegate, during or about that time period, can elaborate on this sad day in AA history. Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa Going to Niagara Falls NY in Sept. - - - - From: "Phil" (ez4me2phil at yahoo.com) It is happening now in the Denver area. They call themselves "Celebrate Recovery," "Overcomers Outreach," and "Recovery in Christ," etc.... They are usually Protestants that have a problem with the pluralism of AA, i.e. "your own conception of God," Ebby's message to Bill. I find them in almost every meeting in Denver. They prey on the fallen away Catholics and the agnostics mostly. They try and sell them- selves as modern versions of the Oxford Groups. Forgetting AA history and all the things that went down in Cleveland when AA broke away from the Oxford groups' radical Protestant evan- gelization. If you end up at one of their meetings they use things like the Recovery Bible. It is a watered-down Protestant Bible with a lot of pychobabble on how to self-interpret the Bible in a recovery context. The meetings are filled with lots of AA bashing and talk of saving those poor fools in AA. Things like if we only knew Christ the way they do we wouldn't need a recovery program. - - - - From the moderator: On Mexico, please, do a search on our message board for the word "Mexico." We had literally dozens of messages on this topic almost exactly a year ago. See for example Messages 4168, 4161, 4157, 4154, 4150, 4149, 4132, 4131, 4115, 4114, 4093, etc. I think everything useful that can be said on this topic has already been said. But Mike is right, this would be an example of a major internal AA schism. We should also remember that groups like All Addictions Anonymous were essentially groups which "seceded" from AA in the sense of groups which got together to form their own national organizations which were separate from the New York GSO-centered organization: http://www.alladdictionsanonymous.com/ And if you look at the list of twelve step groups at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Twelve-Step_groups Did these groups "secede" from AA? In part, this is a matter of how you define the word secede. And how about Moderation Management's nine step program? http://www.moderation.org/ And Life Ring Secular Recovery? http://www.unhooked.com/index.htm It depends in part on how you define the term "secede," since they were definitely started by people who were unhappy with at least some of the AA program, and thought they had a better way of setting up groups for recovery from alcoholism. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4883. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2008 10:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yes, it happens daily with a resentment and a coffee pot. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "dino" wrote: > > Was there ever a time in AA history where > certain groups or factions made an effort to > secede en masse? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4884. . . . . . . . . . . . Psychiatrists and the McNaghten Rule From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 8:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It would not be the evidence of a psychiatrist that would be dispositive as to whether a defendant was sane. Determination of sanity under McNaghten is, so far as I know, the province of the jury deciding matters of fact, and there were no psychiatrists nor any science of psychiatry when McNaghten was first established. Of course psychiatric testimony would be heard -- is heard -- but only as a part of the process of determining whether the defendant knew right from wrong, on which psychiatrists may perhaps not be the most expert witnesses. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4885. . . . . . . . . . . . History info From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2008 10:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Locally we are having a workshop and I was asked to participate. The theme is "Grassroots of AA". So in preparation I'm trying to locate a few items I saw in the past but can't seem to find them anymore. An AA Bulletin from November 14, 1940 Typed documents that I believed to be from NY with meetings listed in various cities and states including from North Carolina. These were dated December 1941 and September 1942 I believe. These were posted on a site called archivesinternational.org at one time and I had them bookmarked but the site is down now. The other item I'm looking for is a recording from the mid 1940's. It is a video from a "March of Times" series I believe. I've seen several 'clips' but never the whole thing, I figured it might be about 15-20 minutes long but might be way off. I am hoping to find these documents and video in by the first week of April for our afternoon workshop. Thank you in advance for any help. Respectfully, Peter F. (peter at aastuff.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4886. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: They seem to have been born that way From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2008 10:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This one phrase from the Big Book has been a bulwark for me. I work as a clinician on a specialized team which treats people who suffer from chronic, cyclical, severe, persistent mental illness and who have a long history of substance abuse and/or addictions. Most of the patients I see have been kicked out of AA meetings because they cannot adapt to the expectations of the groups they attempt. They are "constitution- ally incapable" by most AA member's standards and are not welcome at meetings. By the same token, they also have been kicked out of clinics and hospitals . . . in other words, they are those that most of society has given up on. They are homeless and hopeless when they come to us. I am happy to report that we have seen huge successes, miracles, in people who have other- wise been cast aside as hopeless. And we have attributed part of that to networking with a couple of local AA meetings over the years. Many of my clients have been able to become active and productively engaged in meetings and home groups now. If I can find even one little shred of "honesty" -- no matter about what -- I know that the miracle of recovery can happen. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 On Feb 16, 2008, at 9:34 AM, corafinch wrote: > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, > "nats_attitude" wrote: >> >> I was wondering if anyone can tell me what >> the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem >> to have been born that way" means in the >> contextual form it was written in the fifth >> chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works." >> > > It depends on what you mean by context. For > comparison, here is something form an article > on alcoholism treatment which appeared in the > July 1938 issue of Harper's. That places it > close in time to the writing of the Big Book. > The author, Genevieve Parkhurst, later wrote > an article on AA for Harper's . > > "It would be misleading to claim that all > forms of alcoholism may be healed by this or > any other method. Some human beings are so > naturally unequal to the conflicts of living > that, in the light of present knowledge, little > can be done for them except to protect them > from the disturbing issues which cause them to > drink. There are also the extreme cases, the > psychotics whom alcohol has removed into the > obscure recesses of the abnormal. Their cure > is problematical and is the business of the > psychiatrist and physician alone. For any > layman to attempt to explain such cases would > be dangerous; even the most distinguished > medical scientists still disagree about them. > > "By far the greater number of heavy drinkers, > however, belong in a class whose ailment can > be more easily corrected. They are the men > and women--we all know them--in whom the habit > of excess has grown until their health, their > business, their home life, and their peace of > mind are in jeopardy. They are those whom the > psychologist, Charles H. Durfee, who has been > successful in healing them, mentions in his > book To Drink or Not To Drink as "problem > drinkers." For them there is more than an even > chance of cure in a comparatively new kind of > mental therapy now being practiced by trained > psychologists who, through study and trial, > have brought it to a high level of efficacy." > > The article later quotes Richard R. Peabody as > a pathfinder in the field, who said that in his > experience "seldom did a child whose parents > maintained an intelligent attitude toward > him mature into a drunkard." Evidently when > Parkhurst used the expression "trained psycho- > logists" she included some people who would be > considered lay therapists and who were also > known to the AA pioneers. > > Cora > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4887. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: They seem to have been born that way From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2008 10:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This article, headed "Rarely Not Never", appeared in the October 2007 issue of "Share", the monthly magazine published by the UK AA General Service Board:- "Bristol Fashion" was a newsletter founded and edited by members of the Bristol Newcomers AA group (in Gloucestershire, England). This extract is reprinted with grateful acknowledg- ment. "Bristol Fashion" is indebted to Nell Wing, Bill W's non-alcoholic secretary and AA's first archivist, for supplying observations of our co-founder when questioned as to the word "Rarely" in chapter five, "How It Works", of the Big Book. Excerpt from (Bill's) first letter: "Respecting my use of the word 'rarely', I think it was chosen because it did not express an absolute state of affairs, such as 'never' does. Anyhow we are certainly stuck with the word 'rarely'. My few efforts to change the wording of the AA book have always come to naught - the protests are always too many." In another letter Bill wrote: "Concerning your comment about the use of the word 'rarely' in chapter five of the Big Book. My recollection is that we did give this considerable thought at the time of writing. I think the main reason for the use of the word 'rarely' was to avoid anything that would look like a claim to a 100 per cent result. Assuming of course that an alcoholic is sane enough and willing enough, there can be a perfect score ... But since willingness and sanity are such elusive and fluctuating values, we simply didn't like to be too positive. The medical profession would jump right down our throats. Then, too, we have seen people who apparently have tried their very best, and then failed. Not because of unwillingness, but perhaps by reason of physical tension or some undisclosed quirk, not known to them or anyone else. Neither did we want to over-encourage relatives and friends in the supposition that their dear ones could surely get well in AA if only they were willing. I think that's why we chose that word. I remember thinking about it quite a lot. Maybe some of these same reasons would apply to the present conditions. Anyhow, I know this: the text of the AA book is so frozen in the minds of tens of thousands of AA's that even the slightest change creates an uproar." Nell Wing and Frank M., her successor as archivist at GSO, New York, visited Britain at "Bristol Fashion's" invitation in the 1990s. The newsletter ceased publication a few years ago... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4888. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2008 6:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yes, I have heard several such reports. One is contained in A.A. History, Hank Parkhurst -- New York's A.A.#2. Unfortunately Hank went back out and on a long bender. Then, according to this history, "Soon Hank went to Ohio and began spreading vicious tales attacking Bill Wilson. Bill was grateful that Dr. Bob and Anne Smith disbelieved his stories, but many, especially Clarence Snyder and Henrietta Seiberling (who had never liked Bill) did believe Hank's tales. In Cleveland, some started calling for Bill's exclusion from Alcoholics Anonymous and even accused him of financial trickery. In New York, they began hearing about several Cleveland groups that wanted to secede and break off all connection with Bill Wilson's brand of AA." Source: http://www.barefootsworld.net/aany2hankp.html While the word "secede" is difficult to find in any literature, what happened between the Akron contingent and those who formed a new group in Cleveland, certainly has all the earmarks of secession. "A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the first documented meeting which used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the Oxford Group. According to the records of the Cleveland Central Committee's Recording Statistician, Norman E. (which were compiled in the middle of June 1942) the following took place: On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G. group. The location of the group was 2345 Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights, Cleveland, Ohio. The sponsors of the group were; Clarence Snyder, Al G., Geo. J. McD., John D., Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J., and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group was Clarence Snyder .... The first A.A. meeting in the world was not uneventful. According to Clarence, the entire group from Akron showed up the next night and tried to "discourage" the Cleveland meeting from happening. Discourage was a very mild term, according to Clarence; and he used it sarcastically. He said: "The whole group descended upon us and tried to break up our meeting. One guy was gonna whip me. I want you to know that this was all done in pure Christian love. A.A. started in riots. It rose in riots." Source: http://silkworth.net/chs/chs05.html Love and serve Jim L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4889. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: They seem to have been born that way From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 5:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 09:48 2/17/2008 , jenny andrews wrote: >This article, headed "Rarely Not Never", >appeared in the October 2007 issue of "Share", >the monthly magazine published by the UK >AA General Service Board:- > I would note that the same material was covered in an article in the December 1978, Grapevine, titled "Rarely--or Never?" It is available online at the Grapevine site. [Subscription required] Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4890. . . . . . . . . . . . God and Spirituality From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 5:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn F. Chesnut, "God and Spirituality: Philosophical Essays," January 2008, see http://hindsfoot.org/philos.html Full text of the book is now available on line at http://hindsfoot.org/kperson1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4891. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups looking to secede From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2008 9:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 22:06 2/16/2008 , Sober186@aol.com wrote: > >On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron >meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G. >group. The location of the group was 2345 >Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights, Cleveland, >Ohio. The sponsors of the group were; >Clarence Snyder, Al G., Geo. J. McD., John D., >Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J., >and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group >was Clarence Snyder .... All these names but Lloyd T are consistent with names on the First 226 Members of the Akron Group and have Cleveland addresses: Al G Albert Goldrich Chas J Charles Johns Lee L Lee Loria Geo. J. McD George McDermott Dr. Harry N Dr. Harry Nash Vaughn P Vaughn Phelps Lloyd T not listed Clarence Snyder For me it helps establish the veracity of the list. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4892. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr.''s Opinion From: David LeBlanc . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 12:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the Dr's opinion in the Big book he describes a patient that accepted the ideas in this book and returned a year later a changed man. In the original letter the Dr. identified the patient as Bill W. Does anyone know who made this change and when? David IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4893. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr.''s Opinion From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 1:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If I am not mistaken in this particular passage the Doctor is/was talking about Henry Parkhurst. Jay Lawyer - - - - Message 4892 from "David LeBlanc" (Inkman3 at webtv.net) In the Dr's opinion in the Big book he describes a patient that accepted the ideas in this book and returned a year later a changed man. In the original letter the Dr. identified the patient as Bill W. Does anyone know who made this change and when? David - - - - From the moderator: Yeah, this would have to be Hank Parkhurst. I think David is getting Bill Wilson (who is talked about on pages xxv and xxvii) confused with the two people who appear on page xxxi: Hank Parkhurst and Fitz Mayo. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) THE DOCTOR'S OPINION (began on page 1 in the first edition of the Big Book, begins on page xxv in the present fourth edition) (p. xxv-xxxii) the well known doctor was Dr. William D. Silkworth, who worked at Towns Hospital in New York City. (p. xxv) the patient he regarded as hopeless was Bill Wilson. (p. xxvi) "We believe and so so suggested a few years ago" in an article in the Lancet in 1937. (p. xxvii) "many years' experience" meant nine years that Dr. Silkworth had been there. (p. xxvii) "one of the leading contributors to this book" referred to Bill Wilson. (p. xxxi) the man brought in to be treated for chronic alcoholism was Hank Parkhurst. His story "The Unbeliever" appeared in the 1st ed. (p. xxxi) the man who had hidden in a barn was Fitz Mayo. His story in the BB is "Our Southern Friend." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4894. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. on predators in AA From: Roger K . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 5:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a group member who is looking for a reference to "Predators in AA". Does anybody know if Bill W. talked about emotional, financial, sexual, etc. predators in AA with a reference on dealing with same? Roger K IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4895. . . . . . . . . . . . Second Edition Big Book Codes From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2008 9:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A new friend piqued my interest in the codes that appear on the back flaps of the Second Edition Big Book dust jackets [DJ]. I did some investigating and put together the following incomplete table: Code A.A. Membership, Front Flap 1st 2nd 3rd 250k 4th 300k 5th 300k 6th 50M663 (C) 300k 7th 50M365 (C) 350k 8th 50M666 (C) 300k 9th 60M11/67 (C) 350K 10th 60M4/69 (C) 400k 11th 65M9/70 (C) 475k 12th 40M3/71 (C) 475k 13th 100M1/72 (C) 500k 14th 100M2/73 (C) 575k 15th 650k 16th I have been told that there are no codes for the first five and last two. It has been suggested that the number preceding the M in the code is the number in thousands of books printed in that printing. The numbers were gleaned from DJs in my collec- tion plus info from friends. Unfortunately, many of my DJs are facsimiles and don't have the codes. Is it accurate that just the 6th thru the 14th have codes? Would someone provide the membership numbers for the three printings missing them? Are the other numbers correct? Answers will be appreciated. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4896. . . . . . . . . . . . Fulton Oursler From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2008 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anybody give me a "Reader's Digest" (no pun intended) version of how Fulton Ourlser became such an advocate of early AA and any influences he may have had on AA? Thanks, Pete Tippett IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4897. . . . . . . . . . . . Citadel From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2008 4:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"? "The word got out that there were a bunch of fools who wouldn't give you anything for food or a bed, but they would give you some change if you wanted a drink. They began to trust us, and we got three fellows in the Citadel. It so happened that the first one we got sober was the son of a Salvation Army couple, and they thought we were wonderful." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4898. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member introduction and group response From: johnlaurance1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2008 6:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Michael G." wrote: > > I can speak to the situation in the greater > Boston area. Prior to the summer of 1976, > individuals seldom would respond to an > introduction in most groups. In central Pennsylvania there was no response to the introduction until the very early '80's. Now, Overeaters Anonymous was another matter. They were not only "Hi"-ing back, they were requiring that members introduce themselves over and over, complete with the return "Hi's" every time they opened their mouths. I found it really excessive and unnecessary. > The Young > People's international of 1976 in Philadelphia > seemed to serve as a real "jump start" for > the practice. Within a year of that conference, > it was not uncommon to hear "Hi xxx" in > response to an introduction at many groups > in the Boston area. Thank you. I didn't know that. In Pennsylvania we were told it was "the California Style". We were supposedly doing things the way they were done in California. > As I recall, when I was first sober in Chicago, > and later in central Illinois in '73 - '75 no > one would respond to an introduction by saying > hi. Ditto in Pennsylvania. > Q. Can you describe something that's changed > since you've been in A.A.? There was no "ninety in ninety", since in those days there weren't meetings every day. No special things were done for newcomers. My first meeting was step 6. I sat and listened. By the early '80's if a newcomer came in, we'd discuss step one. If a newcomer was doing ninety in ninety and going to a meeting every day, anyone else going to that same meeting would be doing step one over and over and over. Johnny L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4899. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Bill W. on predators in AA From: Nicole . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2008 6:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yes, page 69 which covers our sexual inventory. If an alcoholic continues to harm others, then we are sure to drink...this is our experience. Nicole IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4900. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr.''s Opinion From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2008 6:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII David: An "Original Manuscript" of the Big Book is sold in the gift shop at Dr. Bob's house in Akron. The publication sold claims to be "an exact reproduction of Clarence Snyder's" (The Home Brewmeister's) copy of the manuscript used to compile the Big Book. By the way, in this Doctor's Opinion, there are no names used. Even the doctor's name is not used. The doctor writes: "About four years ago, one of the leading contributors to this book came under our care in this hospital"......etc. (Page 2, Paragraph 6.) That is as close as it comes to naming any names. The doctor also describes what happened with a man brought to the hospital who had been living in a barn, and the says the man became "sold" on the ideas in this book and did not have a drink for three years. But again, there is no name used. (Page 6, paragraph 6.) Love and Serve Jim L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4901. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Citadel From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2008 4:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the > Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"? Salvation Army building Jim Blair IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4902. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 2nd Edition Printings From: lqd8rflp@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2008 12:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a complete listing of 2nd Edition printings that came from Frank Mauser some years ago. PRINTING DATE COPIES MEMBERS GROUPS 1st 7/55 40,000 150,000 6,000 2nd 5/57 40,000 150,000 6,000 3rd 1959 40,000 250,000 7,000 4th 1960 40,000 300,000 8,000 5th 4/62 40,000 300,000 9,000 6th 6/63 50,000 300,000 10,000 7th 3/65 50,000 350,000 11,000 8th 6/66 50,000 350,000 12,000 9th 11/67 60,000 350,000 12,000 10th 4/69 60,000 425,000 14,000 11th 9/70 65,000 475,000 15,000 12th 3/71 40,000 475,000 15,000 13th 1/72 100,000 500,000 16,000 14th 2/73 100,000 575,000 18,000 15th 1973 150,000 575,000 18,000 16th 1974 150,000 725,000 22,000 Regards, John JOHN HAGER CELL-317-504-7397 E-MAIL-LQD8RFLP@AOL.COM - - - - From: lester gother (lgother at optonline.net) Tom This is what I have to add from my collection The code for the 4th printing is as follows: 50m-663(c) There is no code on the first 3 printings as they were published by A.A. Publishing Inc., and the 4th printing was the first to be published by A.A. World Services, Inc. The 9th printing I have states 50m-11/67 (c), The rest I believe to be correct. Hope this helps Tom. Service Lester Gother Northern New Jersey - - - - From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com (DudleyDobinson at aol.com) Hi Tommy, I have a complete collection of?Second editions?with original DJ's and your list of Third through Fifteenth matches mine. The First & Second both give membership at 150,000 whilst the Sixteenth shows 725,000. One point of interest: the Third printing had an error in stating that it was for the THIRD edition. Consequently the majority was sold with no DJ's and One with is a collector's item and very expensive. In fellowship - Dudley IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4903. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Citadel From: Marsha Finley . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2008 4:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Citadel is a military college in South Carolina. It is also one the colleges con- sidered an "Ivy league" of the South. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel_(Military_College) - - - - -----Original Message----- Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"? "The word got out that there were a bunch of fools who wouldn't give you anything for food or a bed, but they would give you some change if you wanted a drink. They began to trust us, and we got three fellows in the Citadel. It so happened that the first one we got sober was the son of a Salvation Army couple, and they thought we were wonderful." - - - - From the moderator: The above passage is from page 248 in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers. It is describing events in Cleveland, Ohio (not Charlestown, South Carolina) in 1942. It is describing how the early Cleveland AA's started standing outside the Salvation Army and giving people a nickle or a dime to buy a drink or some cigarettes. They figured they had to get people's trust first. They finally got three men to trust them enough to let them bring them into the Citadel (the Salvation Army building), where the good Salvation Army people could start carrying out the sobering up process on them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_Army_corps "A Salvation Army corps is a church and place of worship in The Salvation Army. In keeping with Salvationist convention in using military terminology, corps are casually known as barracks. Many corps are additionally called temples or citadels. I was able to find a web page for the Akron, Ohio, Salvation Army Citadel (with a photo of the building) at: http://www.use.salvationarmy.org/use/www_use_neo.nsf/ce952dea4507ee7780256cf 4005\ d2254/36a9553c9ae1b69280256e3900674c2b?OpenDocument [10] But I was unable to find a photo of the Cleveland, Ohio, Salvation Army Citadel. Maybe somebody in Cleveland could tell us what its address was back in 1942. Anyway, they weren't taking these down and out winos and bums and enrolling them in an elite military college. They were talking them into the Salvation Army building where the Salvation Army folks could start detoxing them. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4904. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. on predators in AA From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2008 7:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That's actually page 70. -----Original Message----- Yes, page 69 which covers our sexual inventory. If an alcoholic continues to harm others, then we are sure to drink...this is our experience. Nicole IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4905. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. on predators in AA From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2008 12:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr Bob wrote "... we naturally have had our share of those who fail to measure up to certain obvious standards of conduct. They have included schemers for personal gain, petty swindlers and confidence men, crooks of various kinds, and other human fallibles. Relatively, their number has been small ... yet they have been a problem and not an easy one. They have caused many an AA to stop thinking and working contructively for a time." (Grapevine, September 1948, reprinted in "Best of the Grapevine, volume 2). - - - - Original message: I have a group member who is looking for a reference to "Predators in AA". Does anybody know if Bill W. talked about emotional, financial, sexual, etc. predators in AA with a reference on dealing with same? Roger K IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4906. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. on predators in AA From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2008 4:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There were people, believe it or not, whose morals were bad and the respectable alcoholics of that time shook their heads and said, "surely these immoral people are going to render us asunder." Little Red Riding Hood and the bad wolves began to abound. Ah yes, could our society last? (Transcribed from tape. Chicago, Illinois, February 1951). I am sure that there are more references, but I cannot find them at the moment. - - - - From the moderator: there is more about this in Messages 50, 3562, 3568, and 3575. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4907. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Fulton Oursler From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2008 8:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't know if this is helpful toward what you are looking for but... High Praise for the Charm of Recovering Alcoholics There are times when I wish I were an alcoholic. I mean I wish I were a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. The reason is that I consider the AA people the most charming in the world. Such is my considered opinion. As a journalist, it has been my privilege to meet many people who are considered charming. I number among my friends stars and lesser lights on stage and cinema; writers are my daily diet; I know ladies and gentlemen of both political parties; I have been entertained in the White House; I've broken bread with kings, ambassadors and ministers; and I say that I would prefer an evening with my AA friends to any person I've indicated. I asked myself why I considered so charming these alcoholic caterpillars who have found their butterfly wings in AA. There are more reasons than one, but I can name a few. The AA people are what they are, and they are what they were, because they are sensitive, imaginative, possessed of a sense of humor, an awareness of the universal truth. They are sensitive, which means they are hurt easily, and that helped them become alcoholics. But when they found their restoration they are as sensitive as ever; responsive to the beauty and the truth and eager about the intangible glories of this life. That makes them charming companions. They are possessed of a sense of universal truth that is often new in their heart. This fact that this at-one moment with God's universe had never been awakened within them is the reason they drink. They have found a power greater than themselves, which they diligently serve. And that gives them a charm that never was elsewhere on the land and sea; it makes you know that God is charming, because the AA people reflect his mercy and forgiveness. They are imaginative, and that helped make them alcoholics. Some of them drank to flog their imaginations onto greater efforts. Others guzzled only to block out unendurable visions that arose in their imaginations. But when they found their restorations, their imagina- tion is responsive to new incantations and their talk abounds with color and might, and that makes them charming companions, too. They are possessed a sense of humor. Even in their cups they have known to be damnably funny. Often it was being forced to take seriously the little and mean things of life that made them seek their escape in the bottle. But when they found their restoration, their sense of humor finds a blessed freedom and they are able to laugh at themselves, the very height of self-conquest. Go to their meetings and listen to their laughter. At what are they laughing? At ghoulish memories over which weaker souls would cringe in useless remorse. And that makes them wonderful people to be with by candlelight. by Fulton Oursler (Fulton Oursler was a magazine editor, religious author, and Hollywood screenwriter, and was an early Oxford Group member and friend to AA. He passed away in the year 1952. His official relationship with AA is as follows: Sept. 30, 1939, the very popular weekly Liberty Magazine, headed by Fulton Oursler, carried a piece titled "Alcoholics and God" by Morris Markey (who was influenced to write the article by Charles Towns). It generated about 800 inquiries from around the nation. Oursler (author of The Greatest Story Ever Told) became good friends with Bill W and later served as a Trustee and member of the Grapevine editorial board. In Oct. 1949, Dr. William D. Silkworth and Fulton Oursler joined the Alcoholic Foundation Board.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4908. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Sybil C. & Tex From: Alex H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2008 2:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > HI .. I have a good friend in Sybils daughter. > I have been sending her copies of the informa- > tion in here about her mother. FYI, Sybil's husband, Bob C., is still alive. My buddy, Matt M., tells me Bob's health has been failing. Bob is still sponsoring Matt so to speak. It seems like Matt is helping Bob more than Bob is helping Matt though. They were an amazing couple as Matt tells it. Matt is somewhat amazing himself but don't tell him I said so. :-) Alex H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4909. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: RE: Citadel From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2008 8:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, No such place as Charlestown, South Carolina. The historic city which hosts The Citadel is Charleston. john lee - - - - Sorry, y'all. Glenn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4910. . . . . . . . . . . . Photograph of AA people wearing Lone Ranger masks From: wsmaugham21 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2008 12:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello fellow Drunks! Anyone out there have information on the photo of the AA folks wearing Lone Ranger Masks, and a web site where I might be able to get a copy of it? Love and Service, Dirk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4911. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photograph of AA people wearing Lone Ranger masks From: Jonathan Rose . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2008 9:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the moderator: there are apparently at least two such photos, one showing some AA members in Dayton, Ohio, and another showing some AA members in Madison, Wisconsin. And there was also apparently a third case where masks like this were worn, for a television show in Detroit, Michigan, in the 1950's. - - - - From: "jbuckrose" (jbuckrose1 at mac.com) Here's what you might be looking for. The web source is: http://www.texasdistrict5.com/history-in-photos.htm The photo is about halfway down the webpage, with the caption underneath: "Dayton OH Members, 1942 Members wore masks: to protect their anonymity, members of the Dayton, Ohio, AA chapter donned masks while posing for the press in 1942." in service, Buck R. - - - - From: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) One source is the "Archives Scrapbook - 1939 to 1942." There is a large picture of Madison, Wisconsin, AAs wearing masks. This huge, rather pricey, scrapbook ($75) makes a wonderful display feature. GSO Service material #M42, on page 8. Bob S. PS - I have seen a similar picture from Dayton, Ohio. - - - - From: "JOHN WIKELIUS" (nov85 at graceba.net) GSO sells two different scrapbooks of very old news releases and I believe that you will find those pictures in there. - - - - From: David Jones (jonesd926 at aol.com) I have this from the site silkworth.net ... alas no photo. *VI. Mr. Hope TV Show* In the 1950's WWJ telecast a TV program called "MR. HOPE" in which AA members appeared wearing Lone Ranger masks who told their stories. The masks were worn to protect their identities. The program aired at noon on Sundays. One of our current members (1998), Bill B., was on the show a couple of times along with the Police Commissioner and some Judges. God bless Dave - - - - From: Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) http://www.hindsfoot.org/detr0.html on early Detroit AA history: RADIO PROGRAM On March 5, 1945, Time magazine reported that Detroit's WWJ radio station was running broad- casts by AA members in a radio program called "The Glass Crutch": Alcoholics on the Air Time, March 5, 1945 One of Detroit's citizens stepped up to the microphone one night last week and told how he had "hit bottom" as an alcoholic. To underline his confession, some of the more melodramatic and sordid aspects of his past were dramatized. Then he told of his regeneration. Summed up the Announcer: "Alcoholism is a disease ... an obsession ... an allergy ... " The man who "hit bottom" was the first in a parade of anonymous Detroiters who will describe their alcoholic pasts over WWJ every Saturday (11:15-11:30 p.m. E.W.T.). The series is the first sustained air flight of the famed orga- nization called "Alcoholics Anonymous" (Time, Oct. 23, 1944). Detroit AA's give credit for the broadcast project to 62-year-old William Edmund Scripps, big boss of the Detroit News and WWJ. He was so impressed by AA's reform- ation of a drunkard friend that he decided to do what he could to boost the organization's Detroit membership (now nearly 400). THE MR. HOPE TV SHOW In the 1950's WWJ telecast a TV program called "Mr. Hope," aired at noon on Sundays, in which AA members appeared wearing Lone Ranger masks and told their stories. The masks were worn to protect their identities. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4912. . . . . . . . . . . . Introduction as alcoholic and group response From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2008 6:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks all. Responses vary widely, depending on area of the country. In some areas the identification "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic" didn't arise until the 1960s or even more recently, and the response "Hi, xxx" came later, in the 70s or 80s. At the other extreme, apparently in Quebec both the intro and the group's response were universal at meetings as early as the early 1950s. Gerry R. New Orleans IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4914. . . . . . . . . . . . Seeking volunteers to help with AA history search engine From: George Ewing . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2008 10:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've been a lurking member of this list for a couple of years now. This is my first post, I think, in that time. I'm the webmaster of malverncenter.org, an AA clubhouse in Malvern, PA. We are in the Philadelphia suburbs and are blessed with a wide range of AA meetings of all kinds. Our site gets a lot of traffic, mostly from people looking for meeting times, as well as phone numbers of treatment facilities and the like. Because of this traffic, I've been trying to add content to the site that is of a general nature about AA, above and beyond meeting times. I've added a Google Custom Search Engine that is dedicated to the history of AA. Think of it as an invitation to search terms specific to AA history. Google allows me to solicit volunteers to contribute to the search engine by adding relevant sites to its results, and by labeling certain results with appropriate comments. The volunteer is like a curator of the search results. If anyone is interested in contributing to the custom search on our site, please email me off list at facilities at malverncenter.org. Thank in advance for any volunteers. George George Ewing (gedit123 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4915. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Book From: pbers_11 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2008 4:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking for actual resources of the use of the Little Red book in early years. I have seen on the Web that "the AA foundation appoved of its use" and I am trying to find resources to support this. Thank you Yours in Service Paula D IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4916. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 4:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Little Red Book was published by "the Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins (an important early figure in Minneapolis A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April 14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for publishing it themselves. They were fellow members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at the New York A.A. headquarters (then called the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11, 1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis, gives their full approval to the idea of Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A. pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis A.A. people had written themselves: "Dear Barry: . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a host of others are all local projects. We do not actually approve or disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda- tion feels each Group is entitled to write up its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its own merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy. But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some good points. I think it is up to each indivi- dual Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts them out. Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)" When The Little Red Book did come out, its use in A.A. meetings had the full approval both of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr. Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as we have already noted, but in addition, Jack H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending large numbers of copies of The Little Red Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the New York A.A. office was regularly ordering quantities of The Little Red Book for resale in New York. Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the Minneapolis book in November 1950: "The Little Red Book does fill a definite need and has wide circulation. Therefore, its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a definite place for such a book. Someday I may try to write an introduction book myself which I hope might complement favorably with The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation we are not policemen; we're a service and AAs are free to read any book they choose." ____________________ SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4917. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book From: pbers_11 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In what resources have you found this data? - - - - Please read all of the article that was cited: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html Down towards the bottom it says: "Bill Pittman, in the introduction to the Hazelden Anniversary Edition (the reprinting in 1996 of the 1949 edition of The Little Red Book), gave the text of Bobby Burger's letter." Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) contacted the New York AA Archives and discovered that Bill Pittman had added one phrase to the letter without indicating that he had added it: "as is Nicollet’s 'An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps'" The version given on the Hindsfoot site is the letter as Jack H. found it to be in the New York AA Archives. There is more about the Pittman Anniversary Edition at: http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html ____________________ The other sources of this information: Jack H. got Ed Webster's papers from Ed's daughter, so much of the other information comes from letters and billing information and other documents in those papers: i.e., records of repeated orders from the New York AA office for another box of copies of The Little Red Book. Jack also has copies of various editions of The Little Red Book with handwritten suggestions from Dr. Bob for rewording sentences or adding additional comments. Jack H. also made a detailed study of the Minneapolis AA archives, with the help of a very good AA archivist there. The text of the Bill W. letter about The Little Red Book is also given in the Pittman Anniversary Edition. - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > The Little Red Book was published by "the > Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins > (an important early figure in Minneapolis > A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April > 14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for > publishing it themselves. They were fellow > members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. > > A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at > the New York A.A. headquarters (then called > the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11, > 1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis, > gives their full approval to the idea of > Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A. > pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis > A.A. people had written themselves: > > "Dear Barry: > . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the > new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a > host of others are all local projects. We do > not actually approve or disapprove of these > local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda- > tion feels each Group is entitled to write up > its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its > own merits. All of them have good points and > very few have caused any controversy. But as > in all things of a local nature, we keep hands > off, either pro or con. I think there must be > at least 25 local pamphlets now being used > and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some > good points. I think it is up to each indivi- > dual Group whether it wants to use and buy > these pamphlets from the Group that puts > them out. > Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)" > > When The Little Red Book did come out, its use > in A.A. meetings had the full approval both > of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr. > Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as > we have already noted, but in addition, Jack > H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed > Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending > large numbers of copies of The Little Red > Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the > country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed > Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the > New York A.A. office was regularly ordering > quantities of The Little Red Book for resale > in New York. > > Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the > Minneapolis book in November 1950: > > "The Little Red Book does fill a definite > need and has wide circulation. Therefore, > its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a > definite place for such a book. Someday I > may try to write an introduction book myself > which I hope might complement favorably with > The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation > we are not policemen; we're a service and > AAs are free to read any book they choose." > ____________________ > > SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4918. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 6:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is an inconsistency here. Margaret R Burger (AA's second National Secretary) signed herself as "Bobbie" not "Bobby." If there is a letter from her signed "Bobby" it might not be genuine. I have a substantial set of correspondence between her and Esther E of Dallas. They are all signed "Bobbie." Cheers Arthur - - - - Arthur, We need somebody to check the New York AA Archives on BOTH of the letters which Bill Pittman reproduced in the 1996 Hazelden Anniversary Edition of The Little Red Book. Bill Pittman said on the copyright page that this was the: "50th Anniversary edition 1996 (from 1946 edition published by Coll-Webb Company, Minneapolis)" but Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) showed that it was a reproduction of the 1949 edition, NOT the 1946 edition as Bill Pittman claimed. I have verified this by comparison with a photocopy of the 1946 edition which I was sent. See: http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html Jack H. told me over the telephone that he had checked with one of the archivists at the New York AA Archives (also over the telephone) and had discovered that Bill Pittman had also inserted a phrase into the Burger letter that was not in the original: "as is Nicollet's 'An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps.'" But the New York archivist reading the original letter over the phone to Jack H. would have pronounced "Bobby" and "Bobbie" identically, so there would have been no reason for Jack to have caught that. Anyway, we KNOW that Bill Pittman was very careless indeed in his preparation of that anniversary edition. The Foreword which Bill wrote runs from page vii to page xviii. The Burger letter is reproduced on pages xiii-xiv. The Bill Wilson letter is on pages xvi-xvii. Again, someone with access to the New York AA Archives needs to check the original letters to make sure that we have accurate copies to work from. More than that, we need a good AA historian to do a book on Ed Webster, somebody who will take the time and care to check all the documents out, and do a good scholarly job. At this point, I am committed to finishing my book on Richmond Walker, the author of the Twenty-Four book, and would not be able to take on that additional task. But Ed Webster was very important to the fellowship, and very much deserves to have a book written about him. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:12 PM To: AAHistoryLovers group Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Little Red Book The Little Red Book was published by "the Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins (an important early figure in Minneapolis A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April 14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for publishing it themselves. They were fellow members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at the New York A.A. headquarters (then called the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11, 1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis, gives their full approval to the idea of Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A. pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis A.A. people had written themselves: "Dear Barry: . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a host of others are all local projects. We do not actually approve or disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda- tion feels each Group is entitled to write up its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its own merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy. But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some good points. I think it is up to each indivi- dual Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts them out. Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)" When The Little Red Book did come out, its use in A.A. meetings had the full approval both of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr. Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as we have already noted, but in addition, Jack H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending large numbers of copies of The Little Red Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the New York A.A. office was regularly ordering quantities of The Little Red Book for resale in New York. Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the Minneapolis book in November 1950: "The Little Red Book does fill a definite need and has wide circulation. Therefore, its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a definite place for such a book. Someday I may try to write an introduction book myself which I hope might complement favorably with The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation we are not policemen; we're a service and AAs are free to read any book they choose." ____________________ SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4919. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book From: Lynn Sawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2008 8:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) Hi. Lynn Sawyer here, from Sacramento, California now, but originally from Minneapolis, Minnesota area. I got sober on the Little Red Book and other A.A. literature. I didn't realize the Little Red Book was a local [Minneapolis] publication. Thanks again for your wealth of information for us alkies. Lynn - - - - From: "Don Cobb" (don at doncobb.com) I remember when some of our local AAers were ADAMANT about 15 years ago, that we were NOT to support "a private company" by buying it. It was frowned on big time and in fact, people were outright confrontational about it, openly and angrily so. So it's interesting to me to see that Dr. Bob approved it. Don C. - - - - From Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Jack H. (who has Ed Webster's papers) says that after Ed's death in 1971, his widow transferred the rights to The Little Red Book to Hazelden, to make sure the book stayed in print. Looking at the copyright pages of old copies of The Little Red Book, it looks like the transfer could have taken place a little earlier (i.e. before 1971), but Hazelden has always been careless about the dates they put down for the copyright date of their editions of early AA books. But as you note, in the early years, The Little Red Book was published in Minneapolis by Ed Webster and Barry Collins, under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in that city. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4920. . . . . . . . . . . . Background on Concept 4 From: Joseph Tandl . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2008 11:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Friends, I have been asked to write a short article (i.e. 300 words) for an AA Area newsletter on Concept 4. Googling and searching this list's archive revealed only the illustrated brochure on the 12 concepts. I would be grateful for pointers to informa- tion about the history of and reason for this particular concept and anything that would make writing about it informative and memorable. Thanks, Joseph Canberra, Australia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4921. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Background on Concept 4 From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2008 5:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I found 2 Grapevine articles on the Concepts. One is from January, 1995 and the article is called "The mystery of the secret 12 (Concepts)" and the other one from January 1993, " Does your group use the Concepts?" Nell Wings book "Glad to have been there" also has a Chapter on the Concepts. I have been very interested in the Concepts too and Find them very important for service work. The Concepts carry Bill W. signature. Yours in AA Dolores - Archives Continetal EuropeanRegion IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4922. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Percy Poliak From: Lance . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2008 4:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi group! Does anyone have any info on Dr. Percy Poliak? He gave the "2nd Doctor's Opinion" in the Big Book in Chapt. 3, "More About Alcoholism," page 43. (It is only one paragraph long!) Thanks, and God's blessings! Lance, from colorful Colorado! - - - - From the moderator: for additional background, see http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Refer ence\ s.pdf [11] page 43: staff member world renowned hospital was Dr. Percy Poliak at Bellevue Hospital, New York page 43: "two of you men, whose stories I have heard," unknown. Dr. Percy Poliak -- San Francisco psychiatrist was with Bellevue Hospital New York then San Francisco Country Hospital, impressed with A.A., gave A.A. group full support (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age page 88) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4923. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book From: Bruce A. Johanson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2008 7:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I also found God in Minneapolis (though I heard he is throughout the world hee hee) with the Little Red Book many years ago. That and Stools and Bottles is mostly what we used for literature while Big Books gathered dust on the shelves. That is sometimes seen as rather blasphemous these days. What amazed me was finding out about "The Nicollet Group" long after I had moved from Minneapolis. I and a few friends used to visit different groups once a week never hearing a word about this group. I have heard they are listed now with the Minne- apolis Intergroup. Bruce - - - - NOTE: In Minneapolis, Minnesota, Ed Webster published "The Little Red Book" in 1946 under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group. Ed also wrote "Stools and Bottles" (1955), "Barroom Reveries" (1958), and "Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities" (in 1970, just a year before his death). In early A.A., Ed was one of the four most widely read A.A. authors. - - - - FROM: "bob" (bsdds at comcast.net) It is amazing to me the passion which so many grasp onto the idea of "conference approved literature." In my early sobriety I was living in the "pink cloud" for many years and it has only been in my retirement that I have become fascinated with the history and the HUMANNESS of these men and women. Learning of the travails of the founders and the huge part that people like Henry Parkhurst played makes this thing so much more real. I could never go to a movie based on this site and enjoy it as much as I do reading and "listening" to y'alls discussions. Thanks for the Warmth. bob s goin' on 32 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4924. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2008 8:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > > >From Glenn C. >(glennccc at sbcglobal.net) > >Jack H. (who has Ed Webster's papers) says >that after Ed's death in 1971, his widow >transferred the rights to The Little Red >Book to Hazelden, to make sure the book >stayed in print. > >Looking at the copyright pages of old >copies of The Little Red Book, it looks >like the transfer could have taken place >a little earlier (i.e. before 1971), but >Hazelden has always been careless about >the dates they put down for the copyright >date of their editions of early AA books. > >But as you note, in the early years, The >Little Red Book was published in Minneapolis >by Ed Webster and Barry Collins, under >the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in >that city. > >Glenn C. > The first Hazelden publication of the Little Red Book was some time in the 1960s and was as best I can tell the little volume with rounded corners. As Glenn points out, Hazelden was not good at putting useful information on printing and copyrights in these early books. This printing has a 1957 copyright by Coll-Webb but has the Hazelden logo and address [Central City, Minn 55012] on the full title page. The use of a zip code indicates the date was 1963 or later. There are seven different small format LRBs with the 1957 copyright. I believe the rounded corner one was the first as Hazelden started publishing two other books around the same time and the first ones of these series had rounded corners, Richmond Walker's 24 Hours a Day book and Stools and Bottles. No copyrights are indicated in the 24 Hour book and there are at least two printings w/o zip codes and four with zips. The rounded corner S&B has a 1955 copyright held by Coll-Webb. The Hazelden logo started appearing in the larger format, Coll-Webb printings of the LRB in the form of a sticker on the full title page starting with the twenty-second printing in 1968, so it may be that the LRB was turned over to Hazelden prior to Webster's death in 1971, not that it makes any difference to anyone but we collectors. The 23rd thru 25th printings had the Hazelden logo printed on the full title page. ISBNs were used in some of the latter LRBs but not in the rounded corner 24 Hour books that I know of. I believe ISBNs started in 1968. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4925. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Background on Concept 4 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2008 8:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joseph Tandl (Canberra, Australia) wrote: > > I have been asked to write a short article > (i.e. 300 words) for an AA Area newsletter on > Concept 4. Googling and searching this list's > archive revealed only the illustrated brochure > on the 12 concepts. > > I would be grateful for pointers to informa- > tion about the history of and reason for > this particular concept and anything that > would make writing about it informative and > memorable. - - - - From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) Please go to http://www.justloveaudio.com and click on "free resources". There is a lot of info on the 12 Concepts & the 12 Traditions. It also has a large amount of info/exercises/guides on all of the 12 Steps too. Peace. Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - - From: "Debi Ubernosky" (dkuber1990 at verizon.net) Dear friend, All of the Concepts are in the AA Service Manual, which you can download from the AA website at http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=101. Happy reading! Debi Ubernosky (service crazy alkie!) DOS: 11-25-1990 by God's grace and because AA works! Wait, my apologies, I should have referenced the service material that is on Australia's AA website: http://www.aa.org.au/members/index.php?nav=mb Here's the link to Australia's AA Service Manual: http://www.aa.org.au/materials/materials_service_manual.php?nav=mb Here's a diagram of your service structure: http://www.aa.org.au/materials/materials_national_structure.php Your local DCM or Area Delegate would be a wonderful resource to get some personal input on the Concepts. Enjoy! Debi - - - - From: Hugh Hyatt (hughhyatt at bluehen.udel.edu) I've found the A.A. Grapevine Digital Archive to be great too for finding information on such topics: http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/ - - - - From: "Lee Nickerson" I have been active in Service at the Area Level and Central Office for most of my sobriety. Especially at Central Office, I found that a knowledge of the Concepts was an essential tool. Invaluable, is a better way to say it. They are certainly a lesson in our history and are as relevant today as when they were written. Bill's struggles to have them become a part of us is also a fascinating story. The Concepts have guided us over many threatening issues and controversies since their creation. As I read through them I am ever reminded of Bill's great visionary gift and where that gift came from. Whenever I am asked to speak about them I never fail to remind the listeners to read Bill's Essay on Leadership: to me, one of the finest guides to being an AA leader (or a leader anywhere) that has ever been written. It is so simple, so direct and so useable. The Concepts can be used anywhere in the AA service structure, from the Group to the Conference. The idea that we all have a voice, the premise that we just must make decisions, the guidance that we can't expect someone to take a responsibility in AA without concurrently handing them a certain authority - all these things are applicable at any level of Alcoholics Anonymous. A thorough knowledge of the Concepts has given me the precious gift of being able to survive and appreciate some of the volatile and controversial decision made at the General Service Office, the Conference, and even at my Home Group. It is my belief that if all of us had a first-hand grasp of them, our grasp on our history and our AA Service life would be easier and more fruitful. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4926. . . . . . . . . . . . Lee T''s Foreword to Chuck C., "A New Pair of Glasses" From: kcb007_99 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2008 1:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What can anyone tell me about "Lee T." who wrote a Foreword to "A New Pair of Glasses" by Chuck C.? Any background information you have about "Lee T." and his writing of a Foreword in Chuck C.'s book would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help you can give. - - - - From the moderator: I assume you have seen Message 139 from Nancy Olson "Chuck Chamberlain's Testimony Before a U.S. Senate Subcommittee, 1969" Chuck Chamberlain: was born in 1902, and got sober in A.A. in January 1946. He wrote a book called "A New Pair Of Glasses" which is a transcript of a retreat he gave for alcoholics in 1975. The Preface is written by Clancy I. of California. It can be purchased through New-Look Publishing Co., 1960 Fairchild, Irvine, California 92715. His son [Richard] became a famous actor. Chuck died in 1984. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4927. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s Proposal For 12 Concepts For World Service From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2008 4:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Proposal by Bill W. For Twelve Concepts For World Service 10th General Service Conference – 1960 This proposal, delivered by Bill W. at the closing of the 10th General Service Conference is of great historical significance as it was the first time that Bill had spoken to the Fellowship on the subject of the Twelve Concepts. The original transcript has been retyped for clarity and has been verified against the voice recording. ------------------------------------------- The last of the sand in the hourglass of our time together is about to run its course. And you have asked me, as of old, to conclude this conference, our tenth. I always approach this hour with mixed feelings. As time has past, each year succeeding itself, I have found increasing gratitude beyond measure, because of the increasing sureness that A.A. is safe at last for God, so long as he may wish this society to endure. So I stand here among you and feel as you do a sense of security and gratitude such as we have never known before. There is not a little regret, too, that the other side of the coin -— that we cannot turn back the clock and renew these hours. Soon they will become a part of our history. The three legacies of A.A. -- recovery, unity and service -- in a sense represent three utter impossibilities, impossibilities that we know became possible, and possibilities that now have borne this unbelievable fruit. Old Fitzmayo, one of the early A.A.”s and I visited the Surgeon General of the United States in the third year of this society, told him of our beginnings. He was a gentle man, Dr. Lawrence Kolb, since become a great friend of A.A., and he said: ”I wish you well. Even the sobriety of such a few is almost a miracle. The government knows that this is one of the greatest health problems we have, one of the greatest moral problems, one of the greatest spiritual problems. But we here have considered recovery of alcoholics so impossible that we have given up and have instead concluded that rehabilitation of narcotic addicts would be the easier job to tackle.” Such was the devastating impossibility of our situation. Now, what had been brought to bear upon this impossibility that it has become possible? First, the Grace of Him who presides over all of us. Next, the cruel lash of John Barleycorn who said, “This you must do, or die.” Next, the intervention of God through friends, at first a few, and now legion, who opened to us, who in the early days were uncommitted, the whole field of human ideas, morality and religion, from which we could choose. These have been the wellsprings of the forces and ideas and emotions and spirit which were first fused into our Twelve Steps for recovery. And some of us got well. But no sooner had a few got sober then the old forces began to come into play. In us rather frail people, they were fearsome: the old forces, the drives, money, acclaim, prestige. Would these tear us apart? Besides, we came from every walk of life. Early, we had begun to be a cross section of all men and women, all differently conditioned, all so different and yet happily so alike in our kinship of suffering. Could we hold in unity? To those few who remain who lived in those earlier times when the Traditions were being forged in the school of hard experience on its thousands of anvils, we had our very, very dark moments. It was sure recovery was in sight, but how could there be recovery for many? Or how could recovery endure if we were to fall into controversy and so into dissolution and decay? Well, the spirit of the Twelve Steps, which has brought us release, from one of the grimmest obsessions known -- obviously, this spirit and these principles of retaining Grace had to be the fundamentals of our unity. But in order to become fundamental to our unity, these principles had to be spelled out as they applied to the most prominent and the most grievous of our problems. So, out of experience, the need to apply the spirit of our steps to our lives of working and living together, these were the forces that generated the Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous. But, we had to have more than cohesion. Even for survival, we had to carry this message. We had to function. In fact, that had become evident in the Twelve Steps themselves for the last one enjoins us to carry the message. But just how would we carry this message? How would we communicate, we few, with those myriad’s who still didn’t know? And how would this communication be handled? And how could we do these things, how could we authorize these things in such a way that in this new hot focus of effort and ego we were not again to be shattered by the forces that had once ruined our lives? This was the problem of the Third Legacy. From the vital Twelfth Step call right up through our society to its culmination today. And, again, many of us said: This can’t be done. It’s all very well for Bill and Bob and a few friends to set up a Board of Trustees and to provide us with some literature, and look after our public relations, and do all of those chores for us we can’t do for ourselves. This is fine, but we can’t go any further than that. This is a job for our elders. This is a job for our parents. In this direction only can there be simplicity and security. And then we came to the day when it was seen that the parents were both fallible and perishable (although this seems to be a token they are not). And Dr. Bob’s hour struck. And we suddenly realized that this ganglion, this vital nerve center of World Service, would lose its sensation the day the communication between an increasingly unknown Board of Trustees and you was broken. Fresh links would have to be forged. And at that time many of us said: This is impossible. This is too hard. Even in transacting the simplest business, providing the simplest of services, raising the minimum amounts of money, these excitements to us, in this society so bent on survival have been almost too much locally. Look at our club brawls. My God, if we have elections countrywide, and Delegates come down here, and look at the complexity -- thousands of group representatives, hundreds of committeemen, scores of Delegates -— My God, when these descend on our parents, the Trustees, what is going to happen then? It won’t be simplicity; it can’t be. Our experience has spelled it out. But there was the imperative, the must. And why was there an imperative? Because we had better have some confusion, we had better have some politicking, than to have an utter collapse of this center. That was the alternative. And that was the uncertain and tenuous ground on which this Conference was called into being. I venture, in the minds of many, sometimes in mine, the Conference could be symbolized by a great prayer and a faint hope. This was the state of affairs in 1945 to 1950. And then came the day that some of us went up to Boston to watch an Assembly elect by two thirds vote or lot a Delegate. And prior to the Assembly, I consulted all the local politicos and those very wise Irishmen in Boston said, we’re gonna make your prediction Bill, you know us temperamentally, but we’re going to say that this thing is going to work. And it was the biggest piece of news and one of the mightiest assurances that I had up to this time that there could be any survival for these services. Well, work it has, and we have survived another impossibility. Not only have we survived the impossibility, we have so far transcended it that I think that there can be no return in future years to the old uncertainties, come what perils there may. Now, as we have seen in this quick review, the spirit of the Twelve Steps was applied in specific terms to our problems, to living, to working together. This developed the Traditions. In turn, the Traditions were applied to this problem of functioning at world levels in harmony and in unity. And something which had seemed to grow like Topsy took on an increasing coherence. And through the process of trial and error, refinements began to be made until the day of the great radical change. Our question here in the old days was: Is the group conscience for Trustees and for founders? Or are they to be the parents of Alcoholics Anonymous forever? There is something a little repugnant --you know, They got it through us, why can’t we go on telling them? So the great problem, could the group conscience function at world levels? Well, it can and it does. Today we are still in this process of definition and of refinement in this matter of functioning. Unlike the Twelve Steps and the Twelve Traditions which no doubt will be undisturbed from here out, there will always be room in the functional area for refinements, improvements, adaptations. For God’s sake, let us never freeze these things. On the other hand, let us look at yesterday and today, at our experience. Now, just as it was vital to codify in Twelve Steps the spiritual side of our program, to codify in twelve traditional principles the forces and ideas that would make for unity, and discourage disunity, so may it now be necessary to codify, those principles and relationships upon which our world service function rests, from the group right up through. This is what I like to call structuring. People often say, What do you mean by structuring? What use is it? Why don’t we just get together and do these things? Well, structure at this level means just what structure means in the Twelve Steps and in the Twelve Traditions. It is a stated set of principles and relationships by which we may understand each other, the tasks to be done and what the principles are for doing them. Therefore, why shouldn’t we take the broad expanse of the Traditions and use their principles to spell out our special needs in relationships in this area of function for world service, indeed, at long last, I trust for all services whatever character? Well, we’ve been in the process of doing this and two or three years ago it occurred to me that I should perhaps take another stab --not at another batch of twelve principles or points, God forbid, but at trying to organize the ideas and relationships that already exist so as to present them in an easily understood manner. As you know the Third Legacy Manual is a manual that largely tells us how; it is mostly a thing of mere description and of procedure. So I have cooked up in a very tentative way something which we might call Twelve Concepts for World Service. This has been a three-year job. I found the material, because of its ramifications, exceedingly hard to organize. But I have made a stab at it and the Concepts, which are really bundles of related principles, are on paper and underneath each is a descriptive article. And I have eleven of the articles and perhaps will soon wind up the Twelfth. Now, to give you an idea of what’s cooking, what I’ve been driving at, I’ll venture to bore you with two or three paragraphs of the introduction to this thing. “The Concepts to be discussed in the following pages are primarily an interpretation of A.A.’s world service structure. They spell out the traditional practices and the Conference charter principles that relate the component parts of our world structure into a working whole. Our Third Legacy manual is largely a document of procedure. Up to now the Manual tells us how to operate our service structure. But there is considerable lack of detailed information which would tell us why the structure has developed as it has and why its working parts are related together in the fashion that our Conference and General Service Board charters provide. “These Twelve Concepts therefore represent an attempt to put on paper the why of our service structure in such a fashion that the highly valuable experience of the past and the conclusions that we have drawn from it cannot be lost. “These Concepts are no attempt to freeze our operation against needed change. They only describe the present situation, the forces and principles that have molded it. It is to be remembered that in most respects the Conference charter can be readily amended. This interpretation of the past and present can, however, have a high value for the future. Every oncoming generation of service workers will be eager to change and improve our structure and operations. This is good. No doubt change will be needed. Perhaps unforeseen flaws will emerge. These will have to be remedied. But along with this very constructive outlook, there will be bound to be still another, a destructive one. We shall always be tempted to throw out the baby with the bath water. We shall suffer the illusion that change, any plausible change, will necessarily represent progress. When so animated, we may carelessly cast aside the hard won lessons of early experience and so fall back into many of the great errors of the past. Hence, a prime purpose of these Twelve Concepts is to hold the experience and lessons of the early days constantly before us. This should reduce the chance of hasty and unnecessary change. And if alterations are made that happen to work out badly, then it is hoped that these Twelve Concepts will make a point of safe return.” Now, quickly, what are they? Well, the first two deal with: ultimate responsibility and authority for world services belongs to the A.A. group. That is to say, that’s the A.A. conscience. The next one deals with the necessity for delegates authority. And perhaps you haven’t thought of it, but when you re-read Tradition Two, you will see that the group conscience represents a final and ultimate authority and that the trusted servant is the delegated authority from the groups in which the servant is trusted to do the kinds of things for the groups they can’t do for themselves. So, how that got that way, respecting world services: ultimate authority, delegated authority is here spelled out. Then there comes in the next essay this all questioned importance of leadership, this all important question of what anyway is a trusted servant. Is this gent or gal a messenger, a housemaid -- or is he to be really trusted? And if so, how is he going to know how much he can be trusted? And what is going to be your understanding of it when you hand him the job? Now, these problems are legion. The extent to which this trust is to be spelled out and applied to each particular condition has to have some means of interpretation, doesn’t it? So I have suggested here that, throughout our services, we create what might be called the principle of decision -— and the root of this principle is trust. The principle of decision, which says that any executive, committee, board, the Conference itself, within the state or customary scope of their several duties, should be able to say what questions they will dispose of themselves —- and which they will pass on to the next higher authority for guidance, direction, consultation and whatnot. This spells out and defines, and makes an automatic means of defining throughout our structure at all times, what the trust is that any servant could expect. You say this is dangerous? I don’t think so. It simply means that you are not, out of your ultimate authority as groups, to be constantly giving a guy directions who you’ve already trusted to think for himself. Now, if he thinks badly, you can sack him. But trust him first. That is the big thing. Now, then, there is another traditional principle, the source of another essay here called the principle of participation. Our whole lives have been wrecked, often from childhood, because we have not been participants. There had been too much of the parental thing, too much of the wrong kind of the parental thing, we always wanted to belong, we always wanted to participate; and there is going to be a constant tendency, which we must always forefend against, and that is to place in our service structure any group, A.A. as a whole, the Conference, the Board of Trustees, committees, executives -- to place any of these people in absolutely unqualified authority, one over the other. This is an institutional, a military, set-up —- and God knows we drunks have rejected institutions and this kind of authority, for our purpose, haven’t we? So, therefore, how, as a practical matter, are we going to express this participation. Right here in this conference it’s burned in; in Article XII you’ll see this statement in the Conference Charter: nobody is to be set in utter authority over anybody else. How do we prevent this? The Trustees here, and the headquarters people here, are in a great minority over you people. You have the ultimate authority over us. And you say, well these folks are nicely incorporated, and we ain’t; and they have the dough legally, so have we got it? Sure, you got it. You can go home and shut the dough off, can’t you? You’ve got the ultimate authority but -- we’ve got some delegated authority. Now when you get in this Conference, you find that the Trustees, and the Directors and the staffs have votes. And many of you say, why is it; we represent the groups; why the hell shouldn’t we tell these people? Why should they utter one yip while we’re doing it? Oh, we’ll let ‘em yip, but not vote. Well, you see, right there we get from the institutional idea to the corporate idea. And in the corporate business world, there is participation in these levels. Can you imagine -how much stock would you buy in General Motors if you knew the president and half the board of directors couldn’t get into a meeting because they were on the payroll? Or could just come in and listen to the out-of-town directors? You’d want these people’s opinions registered. And they can’t really belong unless they vote. This we have found out by the hardest kind of experience. So therefore, the essay here on participation deals with the principle that any A.A. servant in any top echelon of service, regardless of whether they’re paid, unpaid, volunteer or what, shall be entitled to reasonable voting privileges in accordance with their responsibility. And you good politicos are going to say, but these people here hold a balance of power. Well, we qualified that in one way. We’ll take the balance of power away from them when it comes to qualifications for their own jobs or voting in approval of their own actions. But the bulk of the work of this Conference has to do with plans and policy for the future. So supposing that among you Delegates there is a split. And supposing these people come in and vote, which, by the way, they seldom do as a bloc, and they swing it one way or the other on matters of future policy and planning; well, after all, why shouldn’t they? Are they any less competent than the rest of us? Of course not. Besides these technical considerations, there is this deep need in us to belong, to participate. And you can only participate on the basis of equality -- and one token of this is voting equality. At first blush, you won’t like the idea. But you’ll have a chance to think about it. One more idea: There came to this country some hundred years ago a French Baron whose family and himself had been wracked by the French revolution. De Toqueville. And he was a worshipful admirer of democracy. And in those days democracy seemed to be mostly expressed in people’s minds by votes of simple majorities. And he was a worshipful admirer of the spirit of democracy as expressed by the power of a majority to govern. But, said de Toqueville, a majority can be ignorant, it can be brutal, it can be tyrannous -- and we have seen it. Therefore, unless you most carefully protect a minority, large or small, make sure that minority opinions are voiced, make sure that minorities have unusual rights, you’re democracy is never going to work and its spirit will die. This was de Toqueville’s prediction and, considering today’s times, is it strange that he is not widely read now? That is why in this Conference we try to get a unanimous consent while we can; this is why we say the Conference can mandate the Board of Trustees on a two-thirds vote. But we have said more here. We have said that any Delegate, any Trustee, any staff member, any service director, -- any board, committee or whatever --- that wherever there is a minority, it shall always be the right of this minority to file a minority report so that their views are held up clearly. And if in the opinion of any such minority, even a minority of one, if the majority is about to hastily or angrily do something which could be to the detriment of Alcoholics Anonymous, the serious detriment, it is not only their right to file a minority appeal, it is their duty. So, like de Toqueville, neither you nor I want either the tyranny or the majority, nor the tyranny of the small minority. And steps have been taken here to balance up these relations. Now, some of the other things cover topics like this, I touched on this: The Conference acknowledges the primary administrative responsibility of the Trustees. We have talked about electing trustees and yet primarily they are a body of administrators. In a sense, it’s an executive body, isn’t it? Look at any form of government. (Understand we’re not a form of government, but you have to pay attention to these forms). The President of the United States is the only elected executive; all the rest are appointive, aren’t they, subject to confirmation by, which is the system we got here -- and this goes into that. And then there is this question taken up in another essay. How can these legal rights of the Trustees, which haven’t been changed one jot or title by the appearance of this Conference, if they’ve got the legal right to hang on to your money and do as they dammed please, what’s going to stop them? Well, the answer is: Nobody has a vested interest. They have to be volunteers always. They are amenable to the spirit of this Conference and its power and its prestige --- and if they are not, there is a provision here by which they can be reorganized; there is a provision in here by which they can be censored - and you can always go home and shut off the money spigot. So, the traditional power of this Conference and the groups is actually superior to the legal power of the Trustees. That is the balance. But the trustees as a minority some day, should this Conference get very angry and unreasonable, say: Boys, we’re going to veto you for the time being, we ain’t gonna do this --- even as the President of the United States has the veto, so will these fellows. You go home and think this over. We won’t go along. And if you give them a vote of no confidence, they can appeal to the groups. These are the balances, see; this is interpretive, this has all been implicit in our structure but we’re trying to spell it out. Well, there are others —- There’s a whole section on leadership, service leadership from top to bottom, what it’s composed of. In A.A. we wash between great extremes. On the one side, we’ve got the infallible leader who never makes any mistakes --- and let us do just as he says. On the other side we have a concept of leadership which goes and says: What shall I do? What shall I do? Tell me, what time do —- I’m just a humble servant, not a trusted one, just a humble one. The hell with either. Leadership in practice works in between -- and we spell that out. And so on. This will give you an idea of what’s cooking in the Twelve Concepts for World Service. The last one which I haven’t done deals with the Conference -- Article XII of the Conference charter. And you who recall it know that this is several things. First of all, it’s the substance of the contract the groups made with the Board of Trustees at the time of St. Louis. And this contract decrees that this body shall never be a government. It decrees that we shall be prudent financially. It decrees that we shall be keepers of the A.A. Tradition —- and so on -- so that it is in part a spiritual document and in part a contract. And, God willing, because it is both spiritual and contract, let it be for all time of our existence a sanctified contract. My own days of active service, like the sands in our last hourglass, are running out. And this is good. We know that all families have to have parents and we know that the great unwisdom of all parenthood is to try to remain the parents of infants in adolescence and keep people in this state forever. We know that when the parents have done their bit, and said their pieces, and have nursed the family along, that there comes the point that the parents must say: Now, you go out and try your wings. You haven’t grown up and we haven’t grown up, but you have come to the age of responsibility where, with the tools we are leaving you, you must try to grow up, to grow in God’s image and likeness. So my feeling is not that I’m withdrawing because I’m tired. My feeling is that I would like to be another kind of parent, a fellow on the sidelines. If there is some breach in these walls which we have erected, some unseen flaw or defect, of course all of us oldsters are going to pitch in for the repairs. But this business of functioning in the here and now, that is for the new generation. May God bless Alcoholics Anonymous forever. And I offer a prayer that the destiny of this society will ever be safe in the hearts of its membership and in the conscience of its trusted servants. You are the heirs. As I said at the opening the future belongs to you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4928. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Book - current Hazelden edit. From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2008 4:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Am curious to read the current Hazelden edition of The Little Red Book after reading the recent posts on it. My question: is the "nonsexist" language edition from Hazelden more or less the original text, or is it significantly altered? Charlie C. IM, Yahoo = route20guy "For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?" Pride & Prejudice IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4929. . . . . . . . . . . . quote from "Alcohol and Public Opinion" (1942) From: Ron Roizen . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2008 9:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good Morning! I just now joined this group in order to ask the following question: In 1942, a man named Dwight Anderson published what I believe to be one of the most important articles in the history of the modern alcoholism movement. It was titled "Alcohol and Public Opinion," and published in the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol (3:376-392, 1942). Near the end of this article, Anderson discussed the prevailing apathy and sense of impotence with regard to alcoholism current among contemporary physicians in the U.S. At one point, he tells an anecdote about the misinterpretation of slips among physicians (pp. 386-387): "Too frequently the therapist merely regards this [i.e., a slip] as evidence of the impossibility of cure, and gives up. A psychiatrist in a municipal hospital so regarded a lapse in an instance known to the author. A member of Alcoholics Anonymous who had been helped to remain sober for more than a year, landed back in the psychiatric ward where she was quite well known from many previous visits. The psychiatric intern who visited her said: 'Well, I see you're back in here again despite "Alcoholics Anonymous."' Do we chide a tuberculosis patient who relapses?" Might anyone on this list recall anything in connection with Anderson's anecdote, I wonder? I'm particularly interested in the name of the AA member Anderson was referring to. Thanks in advance for any help! Ron Roizen Wallace, Idaho IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4930. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Percy Poliak From: bruceken@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2008 9:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Percy Poliak had indeed been on the staff of Bellevue Hospital in New York, as Resident Physician in Charge of the Psychiatric Division. At that time he had a brief contact with Bill W. and had come to possess a Big Book. While at Bellvue Dr. Poliak also met a San Francisco drunk, Ted C, who was in the New York hospital recovering. That was in 1939. (Ted C. was among the first four members of AA in San Francisco.) By March of 1940, however, according to a history of the California Northern Coastal Area written by Dean K. (d. 1984), Dr. Poliak was on the Staff of the San Francisco General Hospital. It was at that time that another local AA member, Don B., had started to drink again, and was admitted there. Ted C., now a sober AA member, went to visit Don in the SF hospital and ran into Dr. Poliak again. This led to Dr. Poliak becoming very active with AA membership in San Francisco. attending AA meetings and referring numerous patients to the Fellowship. He is honored by AA in San Francisco as one of its strongest friends. Bruce Kennedy Chair, San Francisco Archives Committee - - - - Message 4922 from (lance_1954 at yahoo.com) Hi group! Does anyone have any info on Dr. Percy Poliak? He gave the "2nd Doctor's Opinion" in the Big Book in Chapt. 3, "More About Alcoholism," page 43. (It is only one paragraph long!) Thanks, and God's blessings! Lance, from colorful Colorado! - - - - From the moderator: for additional background, see http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Refer ence\ [12]\s.pdf page 43: staff member world renowned hospital was Dr. Percy Poliak at Bellevue Hospital, New York page 43: "two of you men, whose stories I have heard," unknown. Dr. Percy Poliak -- San Francisco psychiatrist was with Bellevue Hospital New York then San Francisco Country Hospital, impressed with A.A., gave A.A. group full support (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age page 88) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4931. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book From: Filiatreau, Amy . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2008 11:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn wrote: Again, someone with access to the New York AA Archives needs to check the original letters to make sure that we have accurate copies to work from. - - - - Hello! As you both know, I usually don’t stick my foot in at AAHistoryLovers but prefer just to view the wonderful things others are researching and writing on this list, only responding or butting in when specifi- cally requested to do so. That said, since I certainly have access to AA’s GSO Archives :-), I thought I would respond to this and hopefully can help. - - - - We have an original copy of Bobbie Burger’s November 11, 1944 letter to Barry Collins, and her words are slightly different than what is quoted below, and some sentences were removed, but it’s basically the same. She writes (this is typed verbatim from her letter): - - - - "Dear Barry: . . . The Washington pamphlet like the new Cleveland one and the host of others are all local projects. I doubt that they make anything on the sale of them for it is only on a very large distribution that anything can be made. I know, although we ship thousands of our own pamphlets, that we actually lose a little selling at the price we do. Of course, we do not try to make a profit – the pamphlet distribution is just another service of this office. We do not actually approve or disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Foundation feels each Group is entitled to write up its own 'can opener' nd [sic] let it stand on its own merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy. But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. Personally I’m glad to see the ‘Spnsor’ [sic] pamphlet out of Cleveland. I know the system there ‘works’ and could be of benefit to other groups. Frankly I haen’t [sic] had time to mor [sic] than glance at the Washington booklet but I’ve heard some favorable comments about it. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some good points. I think it is up to each individual Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts them out. . . . Sincerely, Bobbie (Margaret R. Burger)" - - - - We have many letters to and from Bill about this book, but I can’t find the one transcribed below (also on hindsfoot.org) from November 1950. We have a number of letters from Bill to Ed Webster and to Barry Collins. They clearly were communicating with Bill in late 1950; they sent Bill some copies of the new revision and many letters were exchanged. But I can’t find Bill’s 1950 letter to Barry with this quote in it. However, this is just the sort of thing that Bill did say in many other letters. I don’t see any reason at all to think the letter is not legitimate; we just don’t seem to have it in our collection. I believe it’s probably genuine, but without having a copy of it here, I can’t say for sure. The Alcoholic Foundation and Bill W. were always very welcoming of books like this if they were helpful to AA members, and always took a very hands-off approach, as we do today. We have a letter from Bill W. dated November 14, 1946, in which he writes to Ed: - - - - “I haven’t had a chance to get at the little book. Everybody who has read it seems to like it very much – which of course was to be expected! Personally I am very glad to see many people writing about A.A. and circulating the material about even though some folks seem to think I should do all the writing. To me this idea is nonsense. A.A. is not one point of view, it is many.” - - - - On May 31, 1949, Bill writes Ed again to thank him for sending him some books. He writes, - - - - “God forbid that Alcoholics Anonymous ever become frozen or rigid in its ways of doing or thinking. Within the framework of our principles the ways are apparently legion. There is little doubt that the contribution you folks have made to our progress will always be a part of the folk lore of our well-loved fellowship.” - - - - Hope this is helpful. Take care! Amy Amy Filiatreau, CA Archives Director AA World Services, Inc. 212-870-2568 (filiatreaua at aa.org) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4932. . . . . . . . . . . . Spiritual experience changed to awakening From: celticgreen4 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2008 11:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me when the Big Book was changed to say in the 12th Step in Chapter Five "Having had a spiritual awakening..." as versus the earlier phrase "Having had a spiritual experience..."? - - - - FROM OUR PAST MESSAGES: From: "ArtSheehan" Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005 Subject: RE: Changing "those" to "these" in 12th step wording In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st edition Big Book. The term “spiritual experience” was changed to “spiritual awakening” and the term “as the result of these steps” was changed to “as the result of those steps.” An appendix titled “Spiritual Experience” was also added to the Big Book in the 2nd printing of the 1st edition. This was done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences were of the type that the psycho- logist William James called the “educational variety.” There is a very brief mention of the Step 12 wording change from "experience" to "awakening" in "AA Comes of Age" in the chapter "Religion Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous" by Father Ed Dowling (pg 256). Outside of it, I have been unable to find any further references to the changes in AA literature. In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again in the 2nd printing of the 2nd edition Big Book. The term “as the result of those steps” was restored to its original form of “as the result of these steps.” The 1976 General Service Conference approved publication of the 3rd edition Big Book. The 1976 Conference also expanded a 1955 provision of the Conference Charter to specify that any change to the Steps, Traditions or Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of the General Service Conference Charter, would require written approval of 75% of the AA Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory Action makes any change whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma). Cheers Arthur - - - - Message 3677 from "ArtSheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Sept. 4, 2006 There were a number of significant changes made to the 2nd printing of the 1st edition Big Book: In March 1941, in the 2nd printing, the wording of Step Twelve changed. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps." The story "Lone Endeavor" (of Pat C from CA, ghost written by Ruth Hock) was removed. Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Many members thought they had to have a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences developed slowly over time and were of the "educational variety." William James, by the way did not explicitly use the term "educational variety" in his 1902 book titled "The Varieties of Religious Experience - A Study In Human Nature." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4933. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2008 12:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently obtained printings of the 1st and 2nd reprints of Jack Alexander's SEP (Saturday Evening Post) article which must have been the most widely circulasted Can Opener of the 1940's. After the articled appeared in the magazine the Philadelphia Mother Group ordered 10,000 copies from Judge Curtis Bok, a Phila- delphia Municipal Court Judge and the owner of the Curtis publications. One thousand of these stayed in Philadelphia and nine thousand went to New York. Our relationship with the Judge occured with the help from two Non- Alcoholic members of AA in Philadelphia. They were referred to as "associate members" and are listed in the 1st meeting list issued by the Mother Group. (July 1940) Those two men were Dr's A Weise Hammer and Dudley Saul. Has the list of Can Opener's been updated since the initial post? Shakey Mike Gwirtz Philadelphia, Pennsylvania See you in Niagara Falls NY in Sept 2008 ? - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C." wrote: > > Hi All > > Here is a list of some of the early AA > pamphlets I have seen. All early can openers > had a point. > > I have seen two "AA" pamphlets or booklets, > both from Works Publishing: > > 1. - The Houston Press reprints of intro, > an editorial, and 6 - articles published > by The Houston Press, with a reprint of > "A New Approach to Psychotherapy in Chronic > Alcoholism", by Dr. Silkworth, from "The Journal > - Lancet, MN. July, 1939, Vol. LIX, No. 7, > page 312.(no copyright date, circa. 1940) > > 2. - AA pamphlet or booklet, 29 pages, > Alcoholics Anonymous intro, Am I An > Alcoholic?, The Doctor's Nightmare, The > European Drinker, Women Suffer Too, Bill's > Story, Medicine, Religion and Alcoholics > Anonymous, The Twelve Steps, Our Friends Say, > Book Review by Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick. > copyright 1943. > > Other Works Publishing pamphlets or booklets: > > Medicine Looks at A.A. - 1946 > A.A. Tradition - 1947 > Sedatives - 1948 > The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous - 1950 > > Pamphlets Booklets with "color covers", by > the Alcoholic Foundation: > > A.A. for the Woman - 1952 > Sedatives and the Alcoholic - 1952 > The Alcoholic Employee - 1952 > Young People and A.A. - 1953 > > The items stated earlier reprinted from Akron - > Cleveland, Ohio, and Detroit, MI., and Chicago, > IL. central offices. > > > Bruce C. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4934. . . . . . . . . . . . Conference Approved Literature From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2008 12:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated 10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature: "The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the A.A. Fellowship. "The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does _not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read. "Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express opinions at every stage of production." It states a little later: "All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved "Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as "A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material. "G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins." Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the original thread. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4935. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference Approved Literature From: Jonathan Rose . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2008 6:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi friends, The A.A. web-site posts information regarding Conference-approved and other A.A. literature. the direct link at the site is: http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=214 in fellowship, Buck R. - - - - On Mar 29, 2008, at 12:13 PM, James Bliss wrote: I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated 10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature: "The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the A.A. Fellowship. "The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does _not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read. "Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express opinions at every stage of production." It states a little later: "All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved "Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as "A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material. "G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins." Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the original thread. Jim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4936. . . . . . . . . . . . Middletown play presented at AA meetings From: garylock7008 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2008 5:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gary up here in Canada eh! One of our AA members - sober over 40 years remembers a play that used to move from group to group, about Middletown? He remembers it being performed at one of the Founder's Days a number of years ago - wonder if anyone can give me more information, a script? Best in Recovery - Gary IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4937. . . . . . . . . . . . William James and Appendix From: rdg1649 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2008 7:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is true that James used the term experiental rather than educational as Bill's appendix to the Big Book states. However, it has always struck me that there is a far greater problem with this appendix. Reading it I get the impression that Bill is implying that it is o.k. if a member's spiritual experience is not of the 'bolt of lightning' type as he describes his. In fact, having read James, it is my impression that James is saying the exact opposite: That the most lasting and deep are experiential and not revival type surges of emotion as Bill describes his. Seems to me that Bill acurately reports that James noted a 'variety' of religious experiences but not with the same emphasis/ orientation that Bill implies. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4938. . . . . . . . . . . . The Third Courageous Doctor From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2008 12:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey guys. Thanks for all of your service here. I have a pressing question to which I can't seem to get the answer. Yet. Most of us AA History lovers are already familiar with the two doctors in the Big Book who did the unspeakable: (i) Admitted to a suffering patient that they didn't know squat about how to help a real alcoholic and points out (ii) the existence of a distinction between the alcoholic and the non-alcoholic. That would be Silkworth and Jung. We owe our Fellowship to these men. But there is one more - a THIRD! In a story in the back of the Book, "Me an Alcoholic?" (4th edit. p. 382) the author talks about his analyst who concluded that the "line between the heavy drinker and the alcoholic is not always clear" (385:5) and tells him, "there is nothing I can do" (386:1) and "nothing medicine can do".(386:1) The author points out the analyst's "courage to admit failure" (386:2) Is there a name we can ascribe to this third, courageous and honest physician? Peace, Danny Schwarzhoff - - - - From the moderator: "Me an Alcoholic?" is found in the 2nd edition on page 419, 3rd edition on page 432, and 4th edition on page 382. Author Unknown. See Nancy Olson's biographies of the authors at http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm which notes that "This author's date of sobriety is believed to be November 1947." Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4939. . . . . . . . . . . . History & Archives Lebanon PA June 21 2008 From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2008 10:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Multi-District History & Archives Gathering Lebanon, Pennsylvania, June 21 2008 This year's Gathering is scheduled to begin at 8 a.m. (registration) on Saturday June 21 2008 at the Social Hall at 750 State Drive in Lebanon PA (location also in 2006 and 2007). Suggested topics for panels are: **The Messengers to Ebby (Rowland H, Shep C, Cebra G) **AA and Baseball **AA and Films/Theatre **Early Days in the Mid-Atlantic Region **AA Pioneers **And a Panel on Coming into AA in the Eastern Pennsylvania Area in October 1970 (three old friends who have known each other in sobriety for more than 35 years). The Gathering is FREE and morning refreshments and lunch will be provided. End time about 4:30-5:00 p.m. Contact the Chairman at histandarch@comcast.net (histandarch at comcast.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4940. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Middletown play presented at AA meetings From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2008 7:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/literature/Twelve%20Traditions%20Play.pdf From: "Bob Schultz" (bsdds at comcast.net) Also from: "mchugh1652" (mchugh1652 at ameritech.net) - - - - From: S Sommers (scmws at yahoo.com) The local districts and occasionally a group have put on skits at conferences. The Twelve Traditions play is a fine skit which teaches the players and others much about the traditions and service structure. I ran across The Twelve Concepts play somewhere, but I can't find it right now. There is a good website: recoveryskits.com which might be a place to look. Thanks. Sam'l Sommers Elkhart Indiana - - - - From: "gayle" (downtowndoggie at yahoo.com) Hello to all! this is my first post. I requested the script for this play from GSO back in the 90's & actually performed in it twice. I am looking at the script right now. It's called "Twelve Traditions Play" the cast is made up of: Narrator, Founder (oldtimer), Moneybags, Eager Beaver, Politician, Delegate and Newcomer! It takes place in Middletown Group. It also says "There is no set script or cast for this play. Like everything in A.A., it is very "loosely" organized. Ideally there should be seven players; this version is set up for six players and a narrator or themesetter who opens and closes the play." ----- Original Message ----- From: garylock7008 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:06 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Middletown play presented at AA meetings Gary up here in Canada eh! One of our AA members - sober over 40 years remembers a play that used to move from group to group, about Middletown? He remembers it being performed at one of the Founder's Days a number of years ago - wonder if anyone can give me more information, a script? Best in Recovery - Gary IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4941. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant April Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 1:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks & tell them of obsession & allergy. April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best Friend" by Jack Alexander. April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest desire to stop drinking". April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic. April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC. April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big Book. April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used to open AA meetings in Texas. April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died. April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died. April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida. April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill W's "spiritual sponsor." April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack Alexander. April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the office Bill and Hank P shared. April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938) April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford. April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no- hitter in baseball history since 1909. April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the one millionth copy of the Big Book. April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was formed. First 'mail order' group. April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was formed in Seattle. April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock to the Alcoholic Foundation. April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them. April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published. April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died. April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show. April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held. April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation was broadcast on ABC TV. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4942. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference Approved Literature From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2008 5:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All I'd like to make an appeal to give consideration to performing a search of the large and rich archival postings of AA History Lovers. Topics such as "Conference-approved literature" have surfaced a number of times in the forum and it is well worth a trip through the past postings. It will also yield much more information on individual viewpoints of various members of the forum. It's a rich information source - please take advantage of it. The information published by GSO on what "Conference-approved" means, is also included in hard copy form in the Group Handbook offered by AAWS/GSO. GSO publishes a number of informative and valuable "service pieces" that do not require Conference approval. The information cited about what "Conference- approved" means is one these "service pieces." The Conference-approval process can be very rigorous at times. Trustees Committees and the GSO Publications Department are vital parts of the whole process. More often than not only a small percentage of Conference Delegates will have the opportunity to completely review a piece of literature prior to voting on it on the Conference floor for Conference approval/disapproval. It would be a physical impossibility for all Conference Delegates to review every piece of literature under consideration. The backbone of the Conference is made up of "Conference Committees" (explained in the AA Service Manual). Each Conference Committee that has a literature item on its agenda performs the detailed review and discussion and makes a "recommendations" to the Conference as a whole for approval. If the recommendation receives at least a 2/3 majority in the affirmative then it is approved. The Conference approval process can also be intimidating and onerous. One of the members of this forum, Mel B, wrote the lion's share of Bill W's biography "Pass It On" (the original title proposed was "Bill W and His Friends" - my Areas Archives has 2 manuscript copies). I don't want to try to speak for Mel but I can only imagine how tough it was to satisfy a formidable array of Trustees and Delegates on a biography of Bill W. Also, the attempt to write an AA history from 1955 had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference approval for any type of historical work would be one heck of a major challenge (and probably rightfully so). Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rose Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:53 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference Approved Literature Hi friends, The A.A. web-site posts information regarding Conference-approved and other A.A. literature. the direct link at the site is: http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=214 in fellowship, Buck R. - - - - On Mar 29, 2008, at 12:13 PM, James Bliss wrote: I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated 10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature: "The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the A.A. Fellowship. "The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does _not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read. "Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express opinions at every stage of production." It states a little later: "All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved "Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as "A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material. "G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins." Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the original thread. Jim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4943. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about the circle, triangle and other From: ginnymatthew . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 6:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and the title page have the AA circle and triangle logo that I thought was 'banned' from being used back in 1996. How is it that they are able to use this logo? Also on the front page is a disclaimer which states "No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrievable system, or transmitted in any form or by any means without the prior permission of the publisher." U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer. What is that about? Gratefully, Ginny IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4944. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference Approved Literature From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2008 4:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Arthur, I appreciate your memo on Conference-approved literature. You have pointed out how rigorous the approval process is and how difficult it is to get final approval. I was probably the right guy to work on Bill's bio because my background was in writing for a corporation, where you have to please everybody from the assistant janitor to the CEO. But I was replaced after two years! Working on Bill's bio was, however, a wonder- ful experience that gave me the opportunity to interview people I never would have met and it also enabled me to write three of my Hazelden books. What I'd really like to see, as an independent author, is some effort to show that "outside" literature can be just as useful as the conference-approved materials (and might also be necessary in seeking happy sobriety). Some members apparently believe that a good AA should read only conference-approved literature, which is not the purpose of the process. This viewpoint has become so fixed in Toledo that people apologize if they quote from a piece that is not conference-approved. "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" used to be sold at most groups here, but it was finally eliminated by the self-appointed AA police (is my resent- ment showing?). You referred to the ill-starred attempt to produce an AA history covering the period from 1955 on. I understand that this failed because delegates were unhappy with the histories of their own areas, for various reasons. The project was finally shelved after spending a small fortune producing a version. It did get out somehow, and I have a copy for occasional reference, but there is no approved copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will never have an authorized history covering this period; the job will be left to outside writers by default. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4945. . . . . . . . . . . . The Stools and Bottle Talk From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2008 3:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'd like to know if anyone has a script or a tape of the stools and bottle talk? I'd like to get a copy of it? and does anyone make or know how to purchase the props for the talk? shakey mike gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4946. . . . . . . . . . . . Doctor''s opinion From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2008 9:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My name is John Hartie, I'm doing the commit- ment for the history lovers at Barking big book study. The question is, in the Doctor's Opinion page xxx, was the classification of the alcoholic put in order for any reason? We are looking for facts and not anyone's opinion, sorry if that sounds harsh. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4947. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question about the circle, triangle and other From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2008 5:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Dudley Dobinson and Phillip Baker ************** From: DudleyDobinson (DudleyDobinson at aol.com) Hi Ginny, As I understand, it in the UK (and in Ireland where I live and am in service) the copyright of the Big Book and AA Circle/Triangle was not lost and is still in force. You can verify this by visiting either country's web site. Here in Ireland we use the logo on all official AA correspondence. However we do buy our literature from New York whereas the UK prints some of its own. I could go on, hopefully this will answer your question. In Service - Dudley - - - - From: Phillip Baker (phillipb at the12steps.net) Different copyright laws in different countries. The copyright for the 1st and 2nd edition were allowed to lapse in the US only. This does nto apply to other countries. Also in the US the 3rd and 4th edition is under copyright. But I guess since the first 164 pages are now public domain, that copyright only applies to the new forwards, the personal stories and the additional appendixes. But basically there are different copyright laws in different countries. I assume the circle and triangle fell under that as well. I would assume that the AA office in the UK chose to keep using the circle and triangle. They would be autonomous from from the AA central office here in the states around certain issues. Blessed Be Phillip http://www.the12steps.net - - - - Original message from (ginnymatthew at yahoo.com) I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and the title page have the AA circle and triangle logo that I thought was 'banned' from being used back in 1996. How is it that they are able to use this logo? Also on the front page is a disclaimer which states "No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrievable system, or transmitted in any form or by any means without the prior permission of the publisher." U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer. What is that about? Gratefully, Ginny IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4948. . . . . . . . . . . . Courageous doctors: Dr. Talbot and Dr. Zweig From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 7:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think there were/are many courageous physicians out there such as my sponsor. He sobered up in 1970 in Denver while an ophthalmologist and then came to be a dean of a medical school in Texas. While he was in charge the school adopted the study of Alcoholism and presented as a curriculum. There were four career teachers in that field named from that med school. He got himself associated with IDAA and then was able to put together CME courses for health professi- onals that included a gamut of subjects, but the underlying theme was a study of addiction. There were all night alkathons and a meeting planned or put together quickly. Dr. Talbot attended some of them as did many other well- known treatment people and caregivers for alcoholism care. He ran his tenure for nearly eight years. Whenever he got up to speak to this group, he would always start out with; "let's cut to the chase! My name is George and i am an alcoholic." Sadly, the CME meetings stopped when he stepped down. George T virtually died in my arms in the late 90's in an extended care facility. In my eyes he was a hero and one of the most courageous men I ever knew. I can never show him enough respect. There are countless numbers that benefited from his stand and most will never know they did. Just my 2 cents. In sobriety Bob S - - - - From the moderator: see also the story of Dr. Zweig in Fort Wayne, Indiana. http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html http://hindsfoot.org/nftwayn1.html "Dr. Zweig: The Good Physician" [John S. in Fort Wayne (who writes the anonymous John Barleycorn column about A.A. in the Waynedale News) has given us the story of Dr. Zweig, a physician who was not an alcoholic himself, but who reached out to help struggling alcoholics long before the medical profession as a whole began to recognize A.A. and the modern understanding of alcoholism as a disease. Dr. Zweig's memory is lovingly preserved in Fort Wayne A.A. as one of their great heroes.] The story Dr. Zweig told me before his 1994 death, was that after he was discharged from the Army in 1945 he returned to Fort Wayne. Doc was not an alcoholic himself, but he was a deeply caring and compassionate man -- the living example of the Good Physician -- who became deeply involved in helping A.A. after he saw what the program could accomplish. Soon after returning to the Fort, he (Dr. Zweig) ran into a former patient whom he had diagnosed as a chronic alcoholic. Doc said it was a consternation to him because the man was sober now, and he was of the opinion, as was the American Medical Association, that chronic alcoholism was not treatable. Doc's conundrum: "Did he incorrectly diagnose this man or was there a cure?" Doc asked the man how long he'd been sober and he said about two years. Doc asked his patient how he'd gotten sober and the man said, "I've been going to an AA meeting in Huntington." That is a town of around 16,000 population twenty miles or so southwest of Fort Wayne. Doc was inducted into the Army after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in December 1941 and was in the Army from 1942 until 1945. If Doc's alcoholic patient had his facts right that would've put him at an A.A. meeting in Huntington sometime in 1943. Doc asked if he could go to the next meeting with him, the man said yes, and when Doc attended the A.A. meeting in Huntington he found two other former patients for whom he had also written "chronic alcoholic" on their medical charts. They too were now sober. Doc said he returned to the Fort and immedi- ately talked with a judge and asked him to take the next chronic alcoholic whom he was going to sentence to Richmond State Hospital, and assign custody of that person to him instead. At that point, the judge was about to sentence a woman named Street Car Sally to Richmond, so he instead assigned her to Doc's custody. Doc said the woman was covered with every parasite known to man and that she was turning tricks for six packs while living in an abandoned street car. Doc took Street Car Sally to Huntington and those alcoholics' wives fed, bathed, and clothed her, worked the steps with her, and had her attend their meetings while Doc drove to Huntington each day and gave her a vitamin B12 shot. Three months later Doc took Sally back before the same judge and when the judge called her name he looked around the courtroom and said to the bailiff, "She's not here." Doc said to the judge, "Your honor, she's standing right here!" Sally was such a changed person, the judge couldn't even recognize her anymore. In spite of the fact that he had asked to be allowed to do this experiment, Doc was equally amazed at the difference that three months of A.A. had made in her. He said, "John, I believed I had witnessed a miracle of biblical proportions!" Perhaps partly to protect his own medical reputation at first, Doc worked with A.A. on a totally anonymous basis from 1945 until 1955, when the American Medical Association finally recognized alcoholism as an illness. He decided at that point that he did not want any kind of personal credit anyway for the work he was doing, and so he was careful to retain his anonymity even after that. He had come to understand how the A.A. way of life worked, and had come to realize that the best kind of service to others is the kind in which we seek no thanks or rewards for ourselves at all. Doc and some other local doctors attempted to introduce A.A. into Russia via some other medical doctors whom they met in Berlin, but had no success at that time. It was going to take a while to penetrate behind the Iron Curtain, where the authorities were suspicious of anything coming out of the western world, and the government was officially atheistic. A.A. was first established in Fort Wayne on December 7, 1941, by C. L. Buckley and three other alcoholics. The group he founded, which was later called the Buckley Group, was the first in Fort Wayne. But even in 1945, A.A. was so little publicized that Dr. Zweig was not aware that there was a group right there in Fort Wayne. Since his former patients were attending an A.A.meeting in Huntington, that was the only A.A. group he knew about. So at first he and his alcoholic patients were driving the twenty plus miles to Huntington instead of attending the Buckley group back home in the Fort. I have never been able to nail down where A.A. in Huntington originally came from. Did it come there from the Buckley Group, which had been inspired by their contact with Indianapolis A.A.? The old timers I've talked with so far, said they were not certain, but suspected that A.A. came to Huntington from an Evansville newspaper editor at abut the same time the Buckley Group came to Fort Wayne from Indy. I suspect the old guys might be right, because if the Huntington meeting had come from the Fort, why would Doc's former alcoholic patients have been driving all the way down to Huntington at the beginning instead of just attending the Buckley Group right at home? The Huntington people would have told them right away about the group they already had in Fort Wayne. [Editor's note: Editor: This was probably J. D. Holmes, the founder of A.A. in Indiana, who worked for the Evansville newspaper, and traveled all over Indiana founding AA groups and bringing literature to new AA groups.] - - - - [On AA in Fort Wayne, Indiana, see also http://hindsfoot.org/barruth.html "A Nun's Story: Sister Ruth Finds God in the A.A. Meetings," by John Barleycorn] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4949. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Stools and Bottle Talk From: Bob Schultz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2008 4:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.epinions.com/content_75295788676 Don't know if this is what you were after. If not disregard .... Gads, I learn a lot from this group!!! bob s ----- Original Message ----- From: Shakey1aa@aol.com To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 3:12 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Stools and Bottle Talk I'd like to know if anyone has a script or a tape of the stools and bottle talk? I'd like to get a copy of it? and does anyone make or know how to purchase the props for the talk? shakey mike gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4950. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: William James and Appendix From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2008 12:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are two major errors in the Spiritual Experience Appendix in the Big Book. The first error is that James never used the term "educational variety" (nor did he use the term "experiential"). The second error in the appendix is the attribution of the "... contempt prior to investigation" citation to Herbert Spencer. It should be attributed to William Paley. In 1901, Harvard professor William James presented the "Gifford Lecture Series on Natural Religion" at the University of Aberdeen in Edinburgh, Scotland. His lectures were published in 1902 in a critically acclaimed book titled "The Varieties of Religious Experience - A Study In Human Nature." James cited numerous examples of two styles of spiritual transformation, one was gradual and the other was sudden and dramatic. He did not represent one form as superior to the other. 32 years after its publication, a copy of the book was given to Bill W during his last stay in Towns Hospital. Bill found it deeply inspiring by its revealing 3 key points for recovery: 1st: the need for a complete defeat in a vital area of life (or what we today call "hitting bottom") 2nd: the admission of defeat (or what we today call "acceptance") and 3rd: an appeal to a higher power for help (or what we today call "surrender"). These spiritual principles later became the basis for Steps 1, 2 and 3. In March 1941, almost two years after the first printing of the first edition Big Book, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the second printing. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps." An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was added. Many members thought they had to have a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences developed slowly over time and were of the "educational variety." As a follow on to James' characterization of conversion experiences it is useful to download either a searchable PDF or text file version of the book and then do a string search using either "sudden" or "gradual." You'll discover repeated instances where both are described as different means to the same end with the end result being what is important - not how you got there. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rdg1649 Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:53 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] William James and Appendix It is true that James used the term experiental rather than educational as Bill's appendix to the Big Book states. However, it has always struck me that there is a far greater problem with this appendix. Reading it I get the impression that Bill is implying that it is o.k. if a member's spiritual experience is not of the 'bolt of lightning' type as he describes his. In fact, having read James, it is my impression that James is saying the exact opposite: That the most lasting and deep are experiential and not revival type surges of emotion as Bill describes his. Seems to me that Bill acurately reports that James noted a 'variety' of religious experiences but not with the same emphasis/ orientation that Bill implies. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4951. . . . . . . . . . . . AA history from 1955 to the present From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2008 3:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Below is a brief history of the attempt to publish the history from 1955 to the present. It reflects the cost and the process which this went through before it was finally discarded. I have also provided some specula- tion about who the various writers might have been, drawing that information from a few different resources. Hopefully this will be of interest to the members of this group. The time line of events was: 1988 – writer 1 prepared a manuscript which was provided to the Trustees Literature Committee. They felt it was not appropriate. A second writer was selected. He was unable to meet the deadlines needed by AAWS and was asked to withdraw from the project. 1991 – writer 3 was selected. She had written “Pass It On” and began work. A draft she prepared was reviewed by the Trustees Literature Committee and to ‘readers’ with special expertise. They provided suggestions and comments which were incorporated. 1992 - the Conference Literature Committee received the ‘final’ manuscript from writer 3 1993 – Although there was some unhappiness regarding the manuscript, it was forwarded on to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee. Contractual differences arose between the author and AAWS and writer 3 resigned 1993 – writer 4 was hired to clear up certain sections and write a new one. This fairly complete manuscript was forwarded to the 1993 Conference Literature Committee who recommended the project be deferred for 2 years so that a new group from AA could look at it with fresh ideas. The project died at this time. The following was a review of the history as provided by AAWS: 1985 – the Conference Literature Committee formed a subcommittee to develop an outline for an in depth history from 1955 – 1985 similar to “A.A. Comes of Age” 1986 – An outline for a definitive history was prepared and forwarded to the Conference Literature Committee for consideration. The Conference Literature Committee recommended that a definitive book on A.A. history from 1955 – 1985 be prepared and presented to the 1987 Conference. 1987 – The committee reviewed the progress report on the first 13 rough chapters. It was indicated that the first draft manuscript to included 26 chapters of approximately 700 pages would be ready by the January 1988 deadline. 1988 – The committee reviewed the cover letter and table of contents of the first draft manuscript of the A.A. History Book and recommended that it be referred to the Conference Literature Committee. The 1988 Conference recommended that work continue on the A.A. History Book. Following the Conference, the committee affirmed: - the Trustees Literature Committee will assume responsibility for this project through a subcommittee - the publications director will be asked to find a writer whose specialty is history and that the current writer will continue the effort of obtaining missing area histories - it was the consensus of the committee that the section on area histories should be treated as a separate archival project - it was suggested that the Conference Literature Committee be asked for suggestions with regard to how the material should be handled 1989 – The area histories were separated from the first manuscript and forwarded to the Archives Committee on the recommendation of the 1989 Conference Literature Committee Writers experienced in producing historical reviews were asked to submit outlines for the subcommittee prior to the Conference so that a status report could be prepared for the Conference Literature Committee. The sub- committee selected a writer and a timetable with estimated completion in January, 1991. The Conference Literature Committee recommended that the A.A. History from 1955 forwarded focusing on major events and developments since the co-founders turned A.A. over to the Fellowship, rather than centering on the beginnings of A.A. and histories of the 91 areas of the U.S. and Canada be continued. 1990 – the subcommittee’s review of the outline and draft chapters led to a re-emphasis of the guidelines along with the suggestion for stronger editorial control, and recommended that the summary of progress be provided to the Conference Literature Committee, along with the reaffirmation that draft copies not be circulated in advance of the completion of the manuscript. In late February the sub- committee and author part and the search for a replacement was undertaken. An experienced writer, with broad background with A.A. literature was subsequently hired). The Conference Literature Committee recommended that the project continue to completion. This became a Conference Action. 1991 – the subcommittee reported that the project was on schedule with the manuscript to be delivered by March, 1992. 1992 – The Trustees Literature Committee recommended that the A.A. History Book be forwarded to the Conference Literature Commit- tee. The Conference Literature Committee recommended that the manuscript be returned to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee and then forwarded to the 1993 Conference Literature Committee. 1993 – A.A. History Book completed draft manuscript was forwarded to the Conference Literature Committee which recommended that the project be deferred for 2 years so that a new team of A.A. servants can look at the history book with fresh ideas. 1996 – Trustees Literature Committee discussed and did not approve a request to revive the History Book project. Conference Literature Committee recommendation NOT adopted by the Conference: “That the manuscript originally commissioned as a history book be relabeled “collected observations of Alcoholics Anonymous” and that it be placed in the Archives and made available for purchase at a cost upon request after editing for anonymity and various speci- fic concerns relating to accuracy of content and style. 1997 – The Trustees Literature Committee discussed requests regarding the draft of the A.A. History Book written by (and others) and agreed that it not be made available in the Archives or anywhere else since it runs the risk of becoming ‘unofficial’ A.A. literature and could involve legal problems. 1998 – the Trustees Literature Committee forwarded to the Conference Literature Committee an area request that a second history book be developed. The Conference Literature Committee agreed there was no compelling need to develop this project. Expenses: Paid 86 – 92 224,000 117,000 _______ 341,000 (sub total) 1992 - 5,000 1992 - 8,000 1993 - 26,000 _______ 380,000 (total) From some information I was provided (from Glenn C. on this list) and the documentation which I have, I am speculating: Writer 1 was Bob Pearsons - this is pure speculation but appears to be well founded from the follow up email. The alternative is that he is writer 2 since the group history was not the focus of his material and writer 1 appeared to focus more on the history of the groups rather that AAWS. Writer 2 was Charles Hanson – this is pure speculation – perhaps he was writer 1 if his material was more focused on the groups than AAWS. Writer 3 was Catherine Noren – from my documentation Writer 4 - ???? - this appears to be a fairly minor role, one of cleaning up and not adding much substantive content. - - - - Message 4942 from (ArtSheehan at msn.com) said: "The attempt to write an AA history from 1955 had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference approval for any type of historical work would be one heck of a major challenge (and probably rightfully so)." - - - - Message 4944 from "Mel Barger" (melb at accesstoledo.com) said: "You referred to the ill-starred attempt to produce an AA history covering the period from 1955 on. I understand that this failed because delegates were unhappy with the histories of their own areas, for various reasons. The project was finally shelved after spending a small fortune producing a version. It did get out somehow, and I have a copy for occasional reference, but there is no approved copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will never have an authorized history covering this period; the job will be left to outside writers by default." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4952. . . . . . . . . . . . Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2008 5:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I guess Conference-approved means that that literature carries the imprimatur, or at least endorsement, of the Fellowship's collective group conscience; but as the Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from one's priest, minister or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic, I would add - or from Amazon or a library! - - - - From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com) If one studies history a bit, one begins to see that any "true history" is simply the aggregate experience of all who lived through the events of interest. I'm thinking that you may be doing a huge service to the fellowship by compiling good primary reference material for future historians to sift once the old-timers that cause all the controversy are gone from the scene! It's the old "blind men describing the elephant" problem. No "history" is ever complete, or completely "true," whatever that is supposed to mean. Best regards. Tim T., an alky - - - - From: joseph fischer (joehenryfish at yahoo.com) Ernest Kurtz who wrote the book Not God was given access to the archives. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4953. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Significant April Dates in A.A. History From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2008 5:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Arthur Sheehan, Tom Hickcox, and John Lee: - - - - From: "Arthur Sheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Last December I requested that timelines or date listings be validated and cross-referenced to corroborating sources. Otherwise there is risk in distributing misinformation instead of factual information. There are too many of these types of lists already in circulation that unfortunately are interpreted as authori- tative. The timeline distributed for April has a number of errors for the dates shown below [corrections are in brackets - I didn't check every entry so there may be more]: April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big Book. [The copyright application states a publication date of April 10, 1939.] April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used to open AA meetings in Texas. [It was written in March 1940 with the title "A.A. Prayer" not "The Texas Prayer." Outside of Houston there is no evidence of widespread usage to "open AA meetings in Texas"] April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938). [The trust indenture document of the Alcoholic Foundation marks its inception as August 5, 1938. Its first meeting was on August 11, 1938] April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford. [The city is Bedford Hills, NY. The initial name they gave their home was "Bill-Lo's Break" and later renamed it "Stepping Stones." New Bedford is in Massachusetts. That is where Bill went through part of his military training and where he had his first drink] April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock to the Alcoholic Foundation. [The letter signed by Bill and Hank transfer- ring the stock is dated April 24, 1940. It also included a requirement that Dr Bob and his wife Anne receive a 10% royalty on Big Book sales for life] April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them. [This can be misleading as stated (see page 269 in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers"). Dr Bob accepted royalties from Big Book sales all his life. He started infrequently receiving royalties in 1940 (and shared them with Bill). Bill started receiving royalties shortly after the outbreak of World War II] April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held. [It was held at the Hotel Commodore, New York City on April 20-21-22, 1951] I make a lot of errors with dates and am nothing near perfect, so I'm not trying to do a putdown of the submitter. However, a forum like AAHistoryLovers should be propa- gating facts not misinformation. I would again like to request that timelines not be distributed in AAHistoryLovers unless they contain references corroborating the dates and events stated. Arthur - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) At 23:34 3/31/2008 , you wrote: >April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found >a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford. I believe we went round and round with this a couple of years ago. There is no such place as New Bedford, New York. Stepping Stones is in Bedford Hills or Bedford. See what the address is and who they pay local taxes to. In that area one usually pays taxes to the township the property is located within. >April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches >the only opening day no-hitter in baseball >history since 1909. It would be interesting to have the teams and the score. >April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented >President Nixon with the one millionth copy >of the Big Book. April 19, 1940 - The first >AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was >formed. First 'mail order' group. Was the Little Rock Group the mail order group? >April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died. We might mention that he was Lois' brother. At least I think he was. >April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on >Gabriel Heatter radio show. >April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service >Conference was held. Where? Tommy - - - - From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) April 11, 1941: Bill and Lois' address was Bedford Hills, not New Bedford. Stepping Stones is actually located in Katonah, New York, not Bedford Hills [if you ever choose to visit]. John Lee - - - - From the moderator: please see the next message, number 4954, on Bedford, Bedford Hills, and Katonah. The TOWN is named Bedford. Katonah is a hamlet at the north town line. Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet also contained within the Town of Bedford. ALL of the Town of Bedford put together only has a population of 18,133. This is NOT a big, hairy deal. Just ask one of the locals after you get there where 62 Oak Road is, O.K. ???? Even the official Stepping Stones website can't decide whether Bill and Lois' place ought better be described as being in "Bedford Hills" or in "Katonah," so they have it one way on one page, and the other way on another. Glenn C. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chesbayman56 Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:35 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant April Dates in A.A. History April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks & tell them of obsession & allergy. April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best Friend" by Jack Alexander. April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest desire to stop drinking". April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic. April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC. April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big Book. April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used to open AA meetings in Texas. April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died. April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died. April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida. April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill W's "spiritual sponsor." April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack Alexander. April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the office Bill and Hank P shared. April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938) April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford. April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no- hitter in baseball history since 1909. April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the one millionth copy of the Big Book. April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was formed. First 'mail order' group. April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was formed in Seattle. April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock to the Alcoholic Foundation. April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them. April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published. April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died. April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show. April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held. April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation was broadcast on ABC TV. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4954. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones: Bedford, Bedford Hills, and Katonah From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 5:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Where is Stepping Stones located, Bill and Lois Wilson's home? - - - - It is not in "New Bedford." There are five towns by this name in the United States, but none of them are in the right state: New Bedford, Massachusetts, the most populous New Bedford, Illinois New Bedford, New Jersey New Bedford, Ohio New Bedford, Pennsylvania - - - - The TOWN in New York state is named Bedford. Katonah is a hamlet contained within the Town of Bedford, located at the north town line. Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet also contained within the Town of Bedford. ALL of the Town of Bedford put together only has a population of 18,133. Even the official Stepping Stones website can't decide whether Bill and Lois' place ought better be described as being in "Bedford Hills" or in "Katonah," so they have it one way on one page, and the other way on another. - - - - Stepping Stones: The Historic Home of Bill and Lois Wilson http://www.steppingstones.org/ says: "Located 45 minutes north of NYC by car and 1 hour by train, in Bedford Hills, NY" - - - - http://www.steppingstones.org/visiting.html says: "62 Oak Road, Katonah, New York 10536" - - - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katonah,_New_York says: "Katonah, New York is one of three unincorporated hamlets within the town of Bedford, Westchester County." "Katonah is often styled as a 'village' by its residents. For example, its library is called the Katonah Village Library. However, 'village' has a legal meaning in New York. Katonah is not a village, but merely a hamlet, a non-legally-defined section of a town. Katonah does have its own ZIP code, 10536, and a Metro-North station. It is also part of the Katonah-Lewisboro school district." - - - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Hills,_New_York says: "Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet in the Town of Bedford, New York. When the railroad was built in 1847, Bedford Hills was known as Bedford Station. Bedford Hills extends from a business center at the railroad station to farms and estates, eastward along Harris, Babbitt and Bedford Center Roads and south along the Route 117 business corridor up to Mt. Kisco. Bedford Hills is the seat of government of the Town of Bedford." - - - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_%28town%29%2C_New_York says: "Bedford is a town in Westchester County, New York, USA. The population was 18,133 at the 2000 census. The Town of Bedford is in the central part of the county." "Communities and locations in Bedford: Bedford Village -- A hamlet in the southeast part of the town, also known as Bedford. Bedford Hills -- A hamlet in the Cross River Reservoir -- A reservoir in the northern portion of the town. Katonah -- A hamlet at the north town line. Bedford Corners -- A very small hamlet neighboring larger town Mount Kisco." Among the famous people who have lived there are: "William G. Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, resident of Bedford, 1941-1971. Lois B. Wilson, co-founder of Al-Anon family groups, resident of Bedford, 1941-1988." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4955. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History before or after 1955 From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 9:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Some years ago (1997-8) a proposal was made to the Trustees for a History of AA (to be ready in 2010), but from the beginning (1935) not from 1955. It was, of course, not accepted. But the terms of that proposal point up a problem. AA COMES OF AGE does present pieces of a history 1935-1955 from Bill's point of view. Ernie's NOT GOD and the Barry Leach-Jack Norris piece in Begleiter's monumental multi-volume set do provide historical materials up to 1977-79 (and then Ernie's later edition into the early 1990s). But huge amounts of local and regional historical work are needed (over the entire period from 1935 at least)-- and an acceptable over-all framework needs to be set -- and we need institutional history especially for more recent years -- before anything like a full history of AA from 1935 can be written (and that by a professional historian who would ideally also be a member of AA). My own view, for what it's worth, is that we cannot just begin in 1955, as though all that had to be said for the time to 1955 had been said in AA COMES OF AGE. I think of two volumes for the history thus far THE CHARISMATIC PERIOD: FROM THE BEGINNING TO BILL'S DEATH (1934-1971) and THE PERIOD OF ROUTINE: FROM BILL'S DEATH TO THE PRESENT (1971-2008), and the two volumes would be very different as the history is very different -- but I also don't see it happening. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4956. . . . . . . . . . . . Origin of the term "Character Defect" From: jeffyour . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 9:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good morning, all. A question came up at my home group last week and I promised to do a little digging to come up with an 'informed' answer. Who better to ask than all of you? I've run a cursory search of the archives of this discussion board and found nothing that addresses the historical origin of the term "Character Defects". There is nothing as rigorous as the kind of scholarly exposure that "contempt prior to investigation" has received. In message 2947: In a July 1953 Grapevine article titled "A Fragment of History - the Origin of the 12 Steps" Bill W identified the Oxford Group as one of the 3 main channels of inspiration for AA's 12 Steps. Bill identified the other 2 main channels of inspiration for the 12 Steps as William James and Dr Silkworth. In "AA Comes of Age" (pg 39) Bill wrote "Early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and from nowhere else." and in message 2460: "From 1935 to 1948, The Upper Room was read every morning by more AAs than any other meditational work. Although the Oxford Group had the greatest influence on the development of early A.A. at the very beginning, The Upper Room was clearly the second greatest influence on early A.A. spirituality. You can see the effect of ideas drawn from The Upper Room throughout the first 164 pages of the Big Book. "For a quick look at the kinds of things the Upper Room talked about, see , which gives selections from the readings in some of the issues of The Upper Room published in 1938 and 1939, along with commentary explaining some of the ideas which A.A. drew from this source: an important part of their understanding of what was meant by character and character defects, the emphasis on happiness as an inside job, the idea of the Divine Light within, and warnings against being too imprisoned by doctrines..." Is this a term directly from William James? or from Oxford Group literature (and I wonder where THEY got it?) thx In grateful service, Jeffrey A. Your Delegate Area 54, Panel 57 Northeast Ohio General Service 216_691_0917 home 216_397_4244 work 216_397_1803 fax 216_496_7594 cell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4957. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history from 1955 to the present From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 9:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII $384,000 was expended on a book which was never completed or allowed to be completed. The Trustees Literature Committee then "agreed that it not be made available in the Archives or anywhere else since it runs the risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.literature and could involve legal problems." Questions: 1. Have other pieces of literature, involving over a quarter of a million dollars in expenditures, been banned from the archives and kept secret? 2. Did the Trustees Literature Committee specifically cite the actual"legal problems" it was concerned about? What were they? 3. Did the Trustees Literature Committee explain what risk they were referring to when speaking of "unofficial" AA literature? 4. Does anyone know how whether or not separate service groups like the Trustees Literature Committee regularly dictated what another service group, like the Archives, could do or could not do? In other words ... is there a hierarchy of service groups? It seems the Trustees Literature Committee not only made the decision to abandon a project in which it already had made a sizable investment, it also "buried" all materials generated from that outlay of $384,000. I can see the former as part of their role, but it seems over-reaching on the latter. Did not Archives have a point of view? What process resolves inherent conflicts like this? Thanks! --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss wrote: > > Below is a brief history of the attempt to > publish the history from 1955 to the present. > It reflects the cost and the process which > this went through before it was finally > discarded. I have also provided some specula- > tion about who the various writers might have > been, drawing that information from a few > different resources. > > Hopefully this will be of interest to the > members of this group. > > The time line of events was: > > 1988 – writer 1 prepared a manuscript which > was provided to the Trustees Literature > Committee. They felt it was not appropriate. > A second writer was selected. He was unable > to meet the deadlines needed by AAWS and was > asked to withdraw from the project. > > 1991 – writer 3 was selected. She had written > "Pass It On" and began work. A draft she > prepared was reviewed by the Trustees > Literature Committee and to `readers' with > special expertise. They provided suggestions > and comments which were incorporated. > > 1992 - the Conference Literature Committee > received the `final' manuscript from writer 3 > > 1993 – Although there was some unhappiness > regarding the manuscript, it was forwarded on > to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee. > Contractual differences arose between the > author and AAWS and writer 3 resigned > > 1993 – writer 4 was hired to clear up certain > sections and write a new one. This fairly > complete manuscript was forwarded to the 1993 > Conference Literature Committee who recommended > the project be deferred for 2 years so that a > new group from AA could look at it with fresh > ideas. > > The project died at this time. > > The following was a review of the history as > provided by AAWS: > > 1985 – the Conference Literature Committee > formed a subcommittee to develop an outline > for an in depth history from 1955 – 1985 > similar to "A.A. Comes of Age" > > 1986 – An outline for a definitive history > was prepared and forwarded to the Conference > Literature Committee for consideration. The > Conference Literature Committee recommended > that a definitive book on A.A. history from > 1955 – 1985 be prepared and presented to the > 1987 Conference. > > 1987 – The committee reviewed the progress > report on the first 13 rough chapters. It was > indicated that the first draft manuscript to > included 26 chapters of approximately 700 > pages would be ready by the January 1988 > deadline. > > 1988 – The committee reviewed the cover letter > and table of contents of the first draft > manuscript of the A.A. History Book and > recommended that it be referred to the > Conference Literature Committee. The 1988 > Conference recommended that work continue on > the A.A. History Book. > > Following the Conference, the committee > affirmed: > > - the Trustees Literature Committee will > assume responsibility for this project through > a subcommittee > > - the publications director will be asked to > find a writer whose specialty is history and > that the current writer will continue the > effort of obtaining missing area histories > > - it was the consensus of the committee that > the section on area histories should be treated > as a separate archival project > > - it was suggested that the Conference > Literature Committee be asked for suggestions > with regard to how the material should be > handled > > 1989 – The area histories were separated from > the first manuscript and forwarded to the > Archives Committee on the recommendation of > the 1989 Conference Literature Committee > > Writers experienced in producing historical > reviews were asked to submit outlines for the > subcommittee prior to the Conference so that > a status report could be prepared for the > Conference Literature Committee. The sub- > committee selected a writer and a timetable > with estimated completion in January, 1991. > The Conference Literature Committee recommended > that the A.A. History from 1955 forwarded > focusing on major events and developments > since the co-founders turned A.A. over to > the Fellowship, rather than centering on the > beginnings of A.A. and histories of the 91 > areas of the U.S. and Canada be continued. > > 1990 – the subcommittee's review of the outline > and draft chapters led to a re-emphasis of the > guidelines along with the suggestion for > stronger editorial control, and recommended > that the summary of progress be provided to > the Conference Literature Committee, along > with the reaffirmation that draft copies not > be circulated in advance of the completion > of the manuscript. In late February the sub- > committee and author part and the search for > a replacement was undertaken. An experienced > writer, with broad background with A.A. > literature was subsequently hired). The > Conference Literature Committee recommended > that the project continue to completion. This > became a Conference Action. > > 1991 – the subcommittee reported that the > project was on schedule with the manuscript > to be delivered by March, 1992. > > 1992 – The Trustees Literature Committee > recommended that the A.A. History Book be > forwarded to the Conference Literature Commit- > tee. The Conference Literature Committee > recommended that the manuscript be returned > to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee > and then forwarded to the 1993 Conference > Literature Committee. > > 1993 – A.A. History Book completed draft > manuscript was forwarded to the Conference > Literature Committee which recommended that > the project be deferred for 2 years so that > a new team of A.A. servants can look at the > history book with fresh ideas. > > 1996 – Trustees Literature Committee discussed > and did not approve a request to revive the > History Book project. Conference Literature > Committee recommendation NOT adopted by the > Conference: "That the manuscript originally > commissioned as a history book be relabeled > "collected observations of Alcoholics Anonymous" > and that it be placed in the Archives and made > available for purchase at a cost upon request > after editing for anonymity and various speci- > fic concerns relating to accuracy of content > and style. > > 1997 – The Trustees Literature Committee > discussed requests regarding the draft of > the A.A. History Book written by from the first description above> (and others) > and agreed that it not be made available > in the Archives or anywhere else since it > runs the risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A. > literature and could involve legal problems. > > 1998 – the Trustees Literature Committee > forwarded to the Conference Literature > Committee an area request that a second > history book be developed. The Conference > Literature Committee agreed there was no > compelling need to develop this project. > > Expenses: > > Paid 86 – 92 > > 224,000 > 117,000 > _______ > > 341,000 (sub total) > > 1992 - 5,000 > > 1992 - 8,000 > > 1993 - 26,000 > _______ > > 380,000 (total) > > From some information I was provided (from > Glenn C. on this list) and the documentation > which I have, I am speculating: > > Writer 1 was Bob Pearsons - this is pure > speculation but appears to be well founded > from the follow up email. The alternative is > that he is writer 2 since the group history > was not the focus of his material and writer 1 > appeared to focus more on the history of the > groups rather that AAWS. > > Writer 2 was Charles Hanson – this is pure > speculation – perhaps he was writer 1 if > his material was more focused on the groups > than AAWS. > > Writer 3 was Catherine Noren – from my > documentation > > Writer 4 - ???? - this appears to be a fairly > minor role, one of cleaning up and not adding > much substantive content. > > - - - - > > Message 4942 from ArtSheehan@... > (ArtSheehan at msn.com) said: > > "The attempt to write an AA history from 1955 > had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference > approval for any type of historical work would > be one heck of a major challenge (and probably > rightfully so)." > > - - - - > > Message 4944 from "Mel Barger" > melb@... > (melb at accesstoledo.com) said: > > "You referred to the ill-starred attempt to > produce an AA history covering the period from > 1955 on. I understand that this failed because > delegates were unhappy with the histories of > their own areas, for various reasons. The > project was finally shelved after spending a > small fortune producing a version. It > did get out somehow, and I have a copy for > occasional reference, but there is no approved > copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will > never have an authorized history covering > this period; the job will be left to outside > writers by default." > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4958. . . . . . . . . . . . Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 5:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cleveland Indians vs. Chicago White Sox, WP Bob Feller LP Edgar Smith. Score 1-0. Only run was batted in by Catcher Rollie Hemsley. An autographed game ball was given by Rollie to Dr. Bob and I believe is in the collection at Brown. I believe Bob Feller may still be alive at 89 or so -- I don't know if anyone has approached him for his recollections of Rollie, or if indeed they exist already. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4959. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2008 8:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Al Welch and junebug0619 - - - - From: "Al Welch" (welch at a-1associates.com) Another definition of Conference-approved is that it is owned by, printed by and distributed only by the GSO in New York City. (and I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing - it just sounds that way!) - - - - From: junebug0619@aol.com (junebug0619 at aol.com) I agree that there are many helpful books outside the realm of AA. Alcoholics Anonymous is a text book for sobriety. I need info for the heart and soul. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jenny andrews" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:22 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 >I guess Conference-approved means that that > literature carries the imprimatur, or at > least endorsement, of the Fellowship's > collective group conscience; but as the > Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many > helpful books also. Suggestions about these > may be obtained from one's priest, minister > or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic, > I would add - or from Amazon or a library! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4960. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 4:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jerry Logsdon and Buck R. - - - - From Jerry Logsdon (aalogsdon at aol.com) I have talked to Bob Feller on three different occasions about Rollie Hemsley and had him sign baseballs IN MEMORY OF ROLLIE HEMSLEY. I have a large collection of Hemsley photos and some of these Feller identified for me and recalled incidents about the photographs. He was still sharp and knows a great deal about Hemsley. He (Feller) will be appearing in person at his museum in Van Meter, Iowa on Saturday, June 21. The phone number there is 515_996_2806. I have been communicating with a gentleman who is in the process of writing a book regarding Hemsley and have shared information with him. I have four autographed baseballs from Hemsley and more items. Jerry Logsdon 714_321_7665 - - - - From: Buck R. = Jonathan Rose (jbuckrose1 at mac.com) In his book "Now Pitching, Bob Feller: A Baseball Memoir", Feller makes numerous mention of Rollie Hemsley. Feller, by the way, is the second oldest living Baseball Hall of Famer. On page 16 he talks about "Rollickin' Rollie Hemsley and his alcohol-inspired Superman feats like tip-toeing along hotel ledges ten floors above downtown streets"; On page 73: "But I've always had enormous respect for Rollie Hemsley because he did something that the rest of us might not have been strong enough to do. Cy Slapnicka convinced Rollie to join Alcoholics Anonymous after he got off to such a rocky start with us in 1938. As an incentive, Slap gave a large diamond ring to Rollie's daughter, the person who meant more to him than anyone else in the world. It worked. Rollie took the pledge. He drank about a case of Cokes a day for a while because he needed that sugar that he wasn't getting from booze any more, but he never went back to the hard stuff." (Note: Cy Slapnicka was the Indians' General Manager) in fellowship, Buck R. - - - - From the moderator: Rollie Hemsley = Ralston Burdett Hemsley photo at http://www.aabibliography.com/aahtml3/rollynews.jpg photo and part of his story at http://members.tripod.com/bb_catchers/catchers/hemsley.htm photo and brief story at http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Rollie_Hemsley_19 07 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4961. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 1:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Al GSO does not have an ownership role. I don't mean to split hairs but at times the acronym "GSO" is used when the correct acronym is "AAWS." AA World Services, Inc (AAWS) and AA Grapevine, Inc are the legal corporate entities that hold and preserve copyrights, trademarks and service marks owned by AA. The GSO also produces a number of literature items that are not Conference-approved (i.e. service pieces). Page S70 of the Service Manual states: "The General Service Board is responsible for the General Service Office and the Grapevine, and it takes care of its administrative duties through two operating corporations. One is A.A. World Services, Inc., which oversees the General Service Office and publishes A.A.’s books and pamphlets. The other is The A.A. Grapevine, Inc., which oversees the Grapevine office and publishes and distributes the A.A. Grapevine magazine, the Spanish edition, La Viña, and related items. The two entities need to be incorporated in order to accomplish such tasks as publishing and distributing literature, handling funds, and conducting other vital aspects of A.A.’s business." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al Welch Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 7:53 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 From Al Welch and junebug0619 - - - - From: "Al Welch" (welch at a-1associates.com) Another definition of Conference-approved is that it is owned by, printed by and distributed only by the GSO in New York City. (and I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing - it just sounds that way!) - - - - From: junebug0619@aol.com (junebug0619 at aol.com) I agree that there are many helpful books outside the realm of AA. Alcoholics Anonymous is a text book for sobriety. I need info for the heart and soul. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jenny andrews" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:22 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 >I guess Conference-approved means that that > literature carries the imprimatur, or at > least endorsement, of the Fellowship's > collective group conscience; but as the > Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many > helpful books also. Suggestions about these > may be obtained from one's priest, minister > or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic, > I would add - or from Amazon or a library! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4962. . . . . . . . . . . . Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill From: gmaxham . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 2:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Can you tell me what these records are? A man here in Maine has a set of three. I think I can get them recorded if they're worth doing. He wants to leave them with his family. But I've been working on it with him. Thank you, Gordon Maxham Area 28 archivist Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill on red records. I should explain a little more, I think I know what's on the records. Just have never seen on red records. Are these originals or what? Have researched the Internet for two or three years and still have never seen red records like these. Thank you Gordon IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4963. . . . . . . . . . . . Early AA member Mary Martto From: gmaxham . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 3:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We have a first edition first printing Big Book with all kinds of interesting signatures from Stepping Stones. The woman's name that it belonged to is Mary Martto. Does anyone know who this woman is? We were told she is the second or third woman in AA. Area 28 archivist Gordon Maxham IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4964. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history from 1955 to the present From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2008 11:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Frank B., a past Chicago Area 19 Delegate to the Conference in the early 1990s, sat on Trustees Literature Committee as an Appointed Committee Member in the mid-to-late 1990s. It was not a glorious post because the ACMs had large tasks to perform for the Literature Committee. Frank shared one of his assignments: the immense editing on our second AA History book that the Trustees Literature Committee had undertaken in conjunction with an AA Archives request. Simply, there had to be some of the writing that could be available to the Fellowship as an accessible history, to aid in further research. This was the last effort for an AA historybook (the one that followed Bob P.'s effort in the 1980s) and has David's list of questions on much of the process. The General Service Conference's Conference Literature Committee reviewed the manuscript as presented by Trustees Literature Committee in 1993 and found it lacking a needed AA vitality and general relevance. Eventually the edited manuscript was placed in the AA Archives with the AA Archivist's notice (with the full support of the Trustees Archives Committee) that any legitimate AA Archives Committee (Area or District) could receive copied sections from the manuscript that related to the requestor's specific Region and location. I served my Illinois Area 20 as Archivist from 1998-2002 and received a copy from the section written about history in the East Central Region (the Great Lakes, from Wisconsin east to Ohio). Believe me, it was too dry to keep my own interest. What the authors considered as relevant appeared to me as irrelevant---name dropping, vague site descriptions, and no real coherence or continuity in the chronicle. And, if this historybook was supposed to detail AA's history past 1955, why did it have the supposed origins of ECR groups back to the 1940s? The facts were generally incorrect and too vague, very few 'interviewees' contributed what the manuscript presented as fact, and so on. I can agree with the 1993 Conference Literature Committee that this work was not up to any AA standard of excellence. I am cynical to share that the manuscript could have been chapters that were struck from "Dr. Bob and the Oldtimers," but my disappointment in the work was that there was too little of the history it was supposed to be i.e. post-1955 AA. That's the main reason that the edited manuscript is titled "Collected Observations of AA." There was nothing comprehensive about it, just a few tidbits of detail that only a few AA historians could sink their teeth into. And, as an AA Historian, I found the writing as misleading. The sets of authors (three?) tried, and short of a breach of contract lawsuit against the General Service Board, all were paid for their professional services. Can we go back to Bill W. and "AA Comes Of Age" as the Fellowship's initial history effort? Bill assembled the chapters and stories in that work like the adventure he had witnessed during our formative years. And longtime AAs received it that way, ensuring future AA generations that it had great relevance and provenance! AACA has many contributors and tells the 'adventure' of a developed unity out of many divergent positions of how: how AA grew, how AAs served, how AA may have fallen short, and most importantly how AA survived. Perhaps the next Fellowship-wide history draft could keep this perspective in sight. AACA is a very tough 'act' to follow---with the Conference disapproval and failure of the two historybook efforts through the 1990s, a general consensus began to develop, and seemed to replace the "AA-as-a-whole-history" need (rather a 'want' no?) with a sense that local (anywhere from an AA District to an AA Area to an AA Region) histories could be completed. In late 1993, after the debacle of this second history book effort failed the approval of the Conference, discussion here in Northern Illinois was as simple as this: if the Conference can't get a history completed and pass muster, we can! Not fully cognizant of the implications, I volunteered to attempt to write it. My service at that time was two years of District Archives development (from scratch!), two years as a District Secretary, and eight years of sobriety with a love and appreciation of AA's heritage. The Assembly approved my proposal and I went to work at it. Please note that this sharing is not so much about me but can serve as an example of one AA's effort to preserve our message for future AAs. As written in the Preface, it turns out that the joy is in the search and discovery. The AA Archives assisted with answering any question I had, and the Archivist at the time, Frank M., provided me actual letters and relatively confidential information with my own commitment to protect its anonymity. The Chicago Archives (at the time, scattered around the Area Office)was also a huge resource. The Chicago Historical Society had very relevant Illinois AA items, too, previously contributed from a 1989 Chicago Archives Committee. A close friend and past Area 20 (n. Illinois) Delegate and past Area Archives Committee Chair, Hank G., turned out to be my "Pathfinder" on the research. My own Area's Archives had its fist extensive sorting and cataloguing completed as a result. Two years later, sufficiently humbled that my Area had something relevant and accurate, I enlisted an Ad Hoc committee of ten longtimers and trusted servants to review it---think of a friendly Grand Jury investigation that could call any detail into question for me to prove as cross-referenced and double-checked. The Area Assembly approved the proposal to print it in June 1996, and 1500 historybooks were distributed and/or purchased until it was considered as out-of-print. By 2002, it was posted on the Area website as a massive Adobe Acrobat Reader document. By 2001, further research brought my proposal to update the book into a Second Issue, and my Assembly approved the venture. In 2003, the same review process took place as had happened in 1996, and this time the entire work was re-written with the reviewing help of a close AA friend with a 'magna cum laude' B.A. degree in English literature. The Second Issue's Assembly-approved printing was scaled down to 300 books that were distributed and/or purchased within two years...But, as planned, it was intended to be posted on the Area website, where it remains "in print" today (as an even larger PDF file). Go to www.aa-nia.org and search for it! Conference approval is a lengthy and complicated process that proves the description of AA's prudent speed of "Slow, or Stopped." Thankfully my Area's speed was "slow" about publishing its own history. I believe that if a post-1955 AA history is written with the caliber and details of a "Not-God" or "AA Comes Of Age" effort, it would still have a rough time getting through our Conference's committee system. But I could be wrong. Meanwhile, many efforts continue with significant results for our AA history and most of those efforts and publishing have been discussed and announced here in this egroup. There are many successes that parallel what happened in Northern Illinois Area here! As a simple "member" of my Area Archives Committee today, thanks for hearing my view. Rick, Illinois From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:03 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA history from 1955 to the present $384,000 was expended on a book which was never completed or allowed to be completed. The Trustees Literature Committee then "agreed that it not be made available in the Archives or anywhere else since it runs the risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.literature and could involve legal problems." Questions: 1. Have other pieces of literature, involving over a quarter of a million dollars in expenditures, been banned from the archives and kept secret? 2. Did the Trustees Literature Committee specifically cite the actual"legal problems" it was concerned about? What were they? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4965. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2008 12:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On Apr 11, 2008, at 5:27 PM, jlobdell54 wrote: > I believe Bob Feller may still be > alive at 89 or so -- I don't know if anyone > has approached him for his recollections of > Rollie, or if indeed they exist already. - - - - From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) He is still alive--indeed, I heard him just a few weeks ago on a sports radio show--lamenting the new era of pitch counts, the DH, set-up pitchers and closers, and other MLB innovations! -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> - - - - From: "Chris Budnick" (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) There is a baseball signed by the 1948 World Series Champion Cleveland Indians at Brown University in the Robert H. Smith collection. The ball is signed by the entire team, incl. Rollie Hemsley. I have pictures if anyone is interested. Chris IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4966. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history from 1955 to the present From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2008 4:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rick wrote: > Can we go back to Bill W. and "AA Comes Of > Age" as the Fellowship's initial history > effort? Bill assembled the chapters and > stories in that work like the adventure he > had witnessed during our formative years. If you have a set of tapes from the Conference in St. Louis in 1955, it is easy to note that most of the text is transscribed from the tapes. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4967. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early AA member Mary Martto From: junebug0619@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2008 12:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Could the signature be "Marty Mann" instead of "Mary Martto"? - - - - In a message dated 4/13/2008 3:26:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gmaxham@yahoo.com writes: We have a first edition first printing Big Book with all kinds of interesting signatures from Stepping Stones. The woman's name that it belonged to is Mary Martto. Does anyone know who this woman is? We were told she is the second or third woman in AA. Area 28 archivist Gordon Maxham IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4968. . . . . . . . . . . . Reader''s Digest From: Carol W . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2008 7:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I was wondering how many stories about AA figures were printed in the Reader's Digest Condensed Books? Whose stories were printed? I know of only 2 stories: "My name is Bill W." & "Bill W" by Robert Thomsen. I am interested in finding more books in the Reader's Digest series, including AA people in addition to Bill W. Thank you, Carol W IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4969. . . . . . . . . . . . Historical Perspective on the ICYPAA conference From: dijmo . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2008 10:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 50th ICYPAA is being held July 3-6, 2008 in Oklahoma City: http://www.50thicypaa.org We have been working with the program commit- tee to get a slot on the program for a panel meeting on Saturday afternoon. The likely title for this panel is "Historical Perspective on the ICYPAA conference" (from people that hosted ICYPAA over the decades). We would like to have three prearranged panelists, one that was involved in hosting an ICYPAA during the 60's, one that was involved in hosting an ICYPAA during the 70's and one from the 80's. After each of these folks have shared a little bit about what it was like and what it meant for their sobriety, we will open it up for sharing from the floor. For those of you who may know of Bill D., he has agreed to be the Saturday night speaker. Bill was involved in organizing the first ICYPAA and the main speaker at the second! If that's not enough, he first came to AA at age 19, in New York and attended meetings with Bill W. and many other early AAs. Lizzie Schrock Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee lizzieschrock@hotmail.com 530/906/9854 or Melanie Elliott Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee melhermann@aol.com 323/356/0432 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4970. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origin of the term "Character Defect" From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2008 9:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jeffyour" wrote: > > I've run a cursory search of the archives > of this discussion board and found nothing > that addresses the historical origin of the > term "Character Defects". - - - - The opening paragraph from a 1928 book, The Psychology of Character, With a Survey of Temperment, A.A. Roback, author: "There is one department of psychology in which no progress has been made for about two thousand years, in spite of the fact that it was perhaps the first topic to attract attention . . . .the interlocked subject character and temperament which, though forming the core of any study of human nature, have continued to remain in the speculative stage, while other psychological material was being subjected to experimental scrutiny. Only recently have these siblings been examined anew under the more comprehensive head of personality. . ." "Defects of character" was an expression used commonly in the late 19th-early 20th centuries. I don't think you will be able to find a specific source for Wilson's use of it. The phrase "defects of character" as used then might be similar to what psychologists today would call "personality disorders" if they are present in a severe form. In traditional psychological theory these are felt to be relatively immutable once childhood has passed. Where James comes into it, is that he believed strongly in the changeability of character through overwhelming transformational experi- ences of a mystical type. The Oxford Groupers adopted the Jamesian (pragmatic) view and morphed it with a brand of "second blessing" theology which was by then a little dated. They brushed it off and polished it up with some dynamic-psychology theory so it would have a wider appeal. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4971. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2008 9:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe that they have already been put on CDs. I have a set of three of these red recordings and have them loaned out to a taper. I think they are recordings of Bill W made in 1947. Can do follow-up if necessary. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4972. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones Annual Picnic From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2008 8:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Stepping Stones" (info at steppingstones.org) Dear Friend of Stepping Stones - Spring has definitely come to Stepping Stones, the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson in Bedford, New York. The daffodils and tulips are in bloom, the annual picnic is soon upon us and visitors are waking up from a long winter's nap and stopping by for guided tours daily. Spring brings important updates for the Stepping Stones family - people like you. The 56th Annual Picnic is Saturday, June 7, 2008, at noon. It's only a one-hour train ride from New York City, so please be sure to join us and help spread the word! For a flyer or more information, please visit the new and improved website at www.steppingstones.org IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4973. . . . . . . . . . . . A.A. History Weekend, East Dorset VT, 8/22-24/08 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2008 8:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A.A. History Weekend - The Stories and Pictures of How A.A. Began with Mitchell K., Bill McN., & Barefoot Bill August 22-24, 2008 at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson, AA co-founder, was born) 378 Village Street East Dorset, VT 05253 To register for the weekend & reserve a room, please call the Wilson House at 802/362/5524. ____________________ Mitchell K. is author of the book about his sponsor called "How It Worked: The Story of Clarence Snyder & the Early Days of A.A. in Cleveland, Ohio." He has also collaborated with several other authors on books relating to AA history. Bill McN. will be performing live his popular plays titled "Moments - An Evening With Bill W." and "Scapedream - Dr. Bob...Pure & Simple". A video performance of his Lois W. play will also be shown (she was Bill W.'s wife and co-founder of Al-Anon). Barefoot Bill will be doing a three-hour talk and picture show called "An AA History Present- ation with 250 Pictures of Early AA". ____________________ SCHEDULE: Friday night 8/22/08 (after the regularly scheduled AA meeting) - Lois Wilson one-woman play video Saturday morning 8/23/08 9:00 to 10:20am - Bill McN. performing live his Dr. Bob one-man play Saturday morning 8/23/08 10:40 to 12noon - Mitchell K. talk/presentation Saturday afternoon 8/23/08 1:00 to 4:00pm (w/break) - Barefoot Bill's AA History Present- ation with 250 Pictures of Early AA Saturday night 8/23/08 (after the regularly scheduled AA meeting) - Clarence Snyder video talk Sunday morning 8/24/08 9:00 to 10:20am - Mitchell K. talk/presentation Sunday morning 8/24/08 10:40 to 12noon - Bill McN. performing live his Bill Wilson one-man play IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4974. . . . . . . . . . . . Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2008 5:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't have a picture of the ball, but my impression had been that it was from 1940, when Rollie, recently sober through AA, was a member of the Cleveland Indians and caught Bob Feller's no-hitter, and not from 1948, when Rollie had retired (and in any case so far as I know his last year with the Indians was 1941). Not to say he couldn't have gotten and signed a 1948 team ball for Dr. Bob (I know he managed in AAA ball at Columbus in 1950, so he could have been in Ohio -- and perhaps he coached for Cleveland in 1948, though I don't remember him there), but in any case I'm curious. Key signatures to show 1948 would probably be Joe Gordon and Satchel Paige. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4975. . . . . . . . . . . . bills story From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2008 4:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In "Bill's Story" when the stockmarket crashed the ticker said xyz-32. Is that a minus sign before the 32? - - - - From the moderator: (Big Book p. 4) the stock whose symbol on the stock ticker was XYZ-32, was Penick & Ford, which tumbled from 52 to 32 in a single day. But what can our experts on the stock market tell us? Was this a minus sign in front of the number 32? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4976. . . . . . . . . . . . Early proposed BB cover From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 7:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Dirk Dierking" wsmaugham21@yahoo.com (wsmaugham21 at yahoo.com) At http://hindsfoot.org/private.html you can see a picture which I found, showing what I have been told is an early proposed cover design for the Big Book. What can you tell me about who designed this particular cover, and that person's story and life? Also about whoever designed the cover that ended up being used for the first edition of the Big Book, and the whole story of how the first cover was chosen? Peace, Dirk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4977. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early proposed BB cover From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 8:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Responses from Mitchell K., Rick Tomkins, and Arthur Sheehan - - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) I'm sure there will be lots of responses, but... The cover was designed by Ray Campbell. Ray was an early NY member and an artist who lived in Carmel (or Lake Carmel), NY (Putnam County) and his story AN ARTIST'S CONCEPT appeared in the First Edition of the Big Book. Ray also was the person who designed the so-called "Circus" Dust Jacket which was chosen. The original cover is located at the archives of the Stepping Stones Foundation, former home of Bill and Lois in the Bedford Hills (Westchester County) NY area. Carmel, NY is not that far from Stepping Stones. This Ray Campbell is not the same as the artist of the same name born in 1956 in the UK. - - - - From: "ricktompkins" (ricktompkins at comcast.net) This is the blue "Their Pathway To A Cure" cover. The same artist designed the yellow, red, and white cover that was used on all First Edition dust jackets and one that most AAs can easily recognize. The early AAs selected the second and called it the 'circus' dust cover because of its bright color arrangement. And, the illustrator's story "An Artist's Concept" was printed in First Editions, now in the AAWS Experience, Strength, and Hope. Notably, the author made the first reference to Spencer's "contempt prior to investigation" quote (misquoted and/or unattributed to Herbert Spencer) that later was added to the Big Book's "Spiritual Experience" appendix. Enjoy the draft that was not selected; perhaps it was too frighteningly compelling. The second, selected cover had no images, just the uncomplicated script lettering. To me, both were very "art deco." Rick, Illinois - - - - From: "Arthur Sheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Hi Dirk The brightly colored yellow and red dust jacket usually associated with the first edition Big Book is sometimes called the "circus color" dust jacket. It was designed by Ray C (Campbel) whose 1st edition Big Book story is "An Artist's Concept." Ray also designed an art deco style dust jacket that was never used. It's the dust jacket you are inquiring about. I believe a painting of it is on display at Steppingstones but I can't verify this as fact. As an item of AA trivial pursuit, Ray C began his story with a quotation he attributed to Herbert Spencer which said: "There is a principle which is a bar against all informa- tion, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in ever- lasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Ray's story was not included in the 2nd edition Big Book. However, the quotation and attribution were added to Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" when the 2nd edition Big Book was published in 1955. It has since been found out that the quotation should be attributed to an English clergyman, author and college lecturer by the name of William Paley who lived from 1743 to 1805. Cheers Arthur - - - - Original message from: "Dirk Dierking" wsmaugham21 at yahoo.com) > > At http://hindsfoot.org/private.html you > can see a picture which I found, showing what > I have been told is an early proposed cover > design for the Big Book. > > What can you tell me about who designed > this particular cover, and that person's > story and life? > > Also about whoever designed the cover that > ended up being used for the first edition > of the Big Book, and the whole story of how > the first cover was chosen? > > Peace, > > Dirk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4978. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2008 1:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is Nancy Olson's short bio of Ray Campbell, who designed the Big Book dust jackets we have been discussing: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm An Artist's Concept -- Ray Campbell New York City p. 380 in 1st edition Ray joined the fellowship in February 1938. He began his story by quoting Herbert Spencer: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation." He said that the quotation is descriptive of the mental attitudes of many alcoholics when the subject of religion, as a cure, is first brought to their attention. "It is only when a man has tried everything else, when in utter desperation and terrific need he turns to something bigger than himself, that he gets a glimpse of the way out. It is then that contempt is replaced by hope, and hope by fulfillment." Ray chose to write of his search for spiritual help rather than "a description of the neurotic drinking that made the search necessary." After investigating his alcoholic problem from every angle, medicine, psychology, psychiatry, and psychoanalysis, he began "flirting" with religion as a possible way out. He had been approaching God intellectually. That only added to his desperation, but a seed had been planted. Finally he met a man, probably Bill Wilson, who had for five years "devoted a great deal of time and energy to helping alcoholics." The man told him little he didn't already know, "but what he did have to say was bereft of all fancy spiritual phraseology -- it was simple Christianity imparted with Divine Power." The next day he met over twenty men who "had achieved a mental rebirth from alcoholism." He liked them because the were ordinary men who were not pious nor "holier than thous." He notes that these men were but instruments. "Of themselves they were nothing." He must have been an intellectual type. He not only quotes Spencer, but Thoreau: "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation." It was Ray, a recognized artist, who was asked to design the dust jacket for the 1st edition of the Big Book. He submitted various designs for consideration including one that was blue and in an Art Deco style. The one chosen was red, and yellow, with a little black, and a little white. The words Alcoholics Anonymous were printed across the top in large white script. It became known as the circus jacket because of its loud circus colors. The unused blue jacket is today in the Archives at the Stepping Stones Foundation. His story was not included in the Second Edition of the Big Book but the Spencer quote was placed in the back of the book in Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4979. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 8:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I visited the collection at Brown University in May 2007. The ball that is there is from the 1948 World Series Champion, Cleveland Indians. I can email pictures I took while there. I have been through the entire collection at Brown between my trip in May 2007 and later in September. Chris (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4980. . . . . . . . . . . . Signed Indians Baseball at Brown From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 10:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chris very kindly sent me three views of the baseball signed by Rollie Hemsley and identi- fied as a 1948 World Series ball. The signatures of Joe Dobson (CLE 1939-40 only), Johnny Allen (CLE 1936-40 only), Floyd Stromme (1939 only), Bruce Campbell (CLE 1935-39 only), and others, identify the ball as either late 1939 or (much less likely because Campbell was traded to DET by Opening Day 1940) very early (Opening Day) 1940. In any case, despite the label, it's not from 1948. Most likely 1939 when Feller was 24-9 with 296 SO and Hemsley batted .263. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4981. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown From: greatcir . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 11:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In October, 2005 I visited Brown University and read through a number of boxes related to Dr. Bob and Clarence Snyder. Very few of the boxes had been cataloged and a few of them had plain grocery plastic bags full of loose correspondence, post cards, Works Publishing auditor reports, etc. A box, labled Box 2, had Dr. Bob's wallet with his Social Security card (1937) in it, a small pouch of old medical instruments, a folder on how form a group (1950), and a baseball related to Helmsley per the box description. I have a date of 1948 next to the baseball note in my file but have no recollection of where this date came from nor do I remember examining the baseball for any autographs. I was not permitted to take any photographs. A box that was labled Box 1 held an old coffee pot. It was reported to be from Dr' Bob's house and was refered to as the "Holy Grail" of the AA materials in the Brown collection in their description of the collection in 2005. I do recall the archives person from Brown not being very excited about my examination of any of these materials. They were much more relaxed about me simply reading the text of materials in the other boxes. In previous months I had spent time at Stepping Stones reviewing primarily the last 90 days of Bill's life. I was hoping to see something about the waning period of Dr. Bob's days at Brown but found nothing in the boxes I reviewed. I did not see all of the "boxes" and it was hit or miss on which box I would ask to see the mext day as it took 24 hours to get a box. There was a lot of correspondence on royalties (Bill, Bob, Sue Windows, Barry Leach, etc.) as well as many disrelated text items. One day at a time, Pete K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4982. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Latin America From: amielmelnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2008 8:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello everyone, I'm doing research on the history of AA in Latin America (Mexico, Central and South America) - how the first groups were started, how they spread, any secessions or diffi- culties starting groups (I've been reading what has been posted here about the Mexico separation). I wonder if any of you have information about other parts of the history of AA in Latin America, or suggestions for good places to look? I realize this is a bit broader than the kinds of questions you usually get, but I'm just a beginner! Thanks, and all best, Amiel IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4983. . . . . . . . . . . . Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac From: giftpurple . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2008 8:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What is the history behind the book "Easy Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly? - - - - From the moderator: "Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s book about an alcoholic man. The basic bibliographic information is: Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the millions who as yet do not know. by Hugh Reilly, pseud. Type: Book; English Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950] OCLC: 2662794 Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous. There is a review written by Robert E. L. Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It: The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56, No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by the University of Chicago Press) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4984. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s story and XYZ-32 on stock ticker From: junebug0619@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2008 11:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Responses from junebug, John Lee, and Mike Barns - - - - From: junebug0619@aol.com (junebug0619 at aol.com) If a person is following the action of any one company, he would have to know the stock symbol of that company to read its action on the ticker tape. Let us take as an example the Coca-Cola Company with the symbol KO. The tape would show: KO - the ticker symbol of the company 9M - the amount of shares traded, in this case M stands for million, as K would stand for a thousand and B for a billion @ - at 60.79 - the last bid price in that day per share of stock and up or down arrow - to show the direction of change 0.83 - the amount of change According to the above example in the Big Book, the stock market was 52 dropping 32 points. - - - - From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) A stock price can never be below zero. Unlike partners, stockholders cannot be assessed when a company has a negative value. john lee Pittsburgh - - - - From: Mike Barns (mikeb384 at verizon.net) I am no expert on the stock market, but stock prices are not quoted in negative values; they are removed from the board. A single day drop from 52 to 32 is calamitous indeed, and could be considered ruinous for most. Mike B. - - - - Original message from "johnhartie" (johnhartie at yahoo.com) In "Bill's Story" when the stockmarket crashed the ticker said XYZ-32. Is that a minus sign before the 32? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4985. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2008 4:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a persistent rumour that the book was written by Bill Wilson in order to raise monies for the retirement of Dr. Silkworth. I don't know if a computer analysis of the writing styles was ever done. Jim ************************************** Original Message: 4983 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4983 From: "giftpurple" (Jifgift at aol.com) What is the history behind the book "Easy Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly? - - - - From the moderator: "Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s book about an alcoholic man. The basic bibliographic information is: Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the millions who as yet do not know. by Hugh Reilly, pseud. Type: Book; English Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950] OCLC: 2662794 Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous. There is a review written by Robert E. L. Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It: The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56, No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by the University of Chicago Press) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4986. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2008 1:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Dale Mitchell's biography, Silkworth - The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, Mitchell suggests that Easy Does It was written by Silkworth under the pseudonym Hugh Reilly. I don't have the book in front of me so I can't reference the pages where he discusses this. After reading the Silkworth bio, it prompted me to track down a copy of Easy Does It. Chris ************************************** Original Message: 4983 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4983 From: "giftpurple" (Jifgift at aol.com) What is the history behind the book "Easy Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly? - - - - From the moderator: "Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s book about an alcoholic man. The basic bibliographic information is: Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the millions who as yet do not know. by Hugh Reilly, pseud. Type: Book; English Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950] OCLC: 2662794 Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous. There is a review written by Robert E. L. Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It: The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56, No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by the University of Chicago Press) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4987. . . . . . . . . . . . AA member No. 4 From: Mark . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2008 11:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good Morning/Afternoon all! Does anyone know who the person is that is referenced in the BB as the fourth member? Thanks - - - - From the moderator: I am assuming that you are referring to the "devil-may-care young fellow" who appears on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.). The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30- year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young man with problems [who must be distinguished from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of the truly great AA good old timers.] Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking for the rest of his life, nevertheless had his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr. Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith but they were later divorced. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4988. . . . . . . . . . . . Who edited three of the 1st edition stories? From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2008 2:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the preface (4th edition, bottom of page xi) it says that in the second edition, - - - - <<"Bill's Story," "Doctor Bob's Nightmare," and one other personal history from the first edition were retained intact; three were edited and one of these was retitled; new versions of two stories were written, with new titles>> - - - - My question is, who edited those three stories? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4989. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA in Latin America From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2008 5:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Several years back there was a research symposium held at Brown University with some AA members/historians and friends of AA attending. Since my divorce and move I can't find anything in my apartment and also due to the fact that my memory is vanishing I can't remember the Jesuit sociologist who was in attendance who had immersed himself in the AA culture in Mexico for a long-term research study. Maybe Ernie Kurtz might have the paperwork from that symposium and thus, the contact info. The nice thing about losing my memory is that I will always be able to discover new places and meet new people and make new friends. --- amielmelnick wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I'm doing research on the history of AA in > Latin America (Mexico, Central and South > America) - how the first groups were started, > how they spread, any secessions or diffi- > culties starting groups (I've been reading > what has been posted here about the Mexico > separation). > > I wonder if any of you have information about > other parts of the history of AA in Latin > America, or suggestions for good places to > look? I realize this is a bit broader than > the kinds of questions you usually get, but > I'm just a beginner! > > Thanks, and all best, > > Amiel > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4990. . . . . . . . . . . . "the man in the bed" From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2008 6:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have become interested in the various representations of "the man in the bed," and am eager to add to the "gallery" I am making up. I have collected the photos from the original Jack Alexander article in the Saturday Evening Post, as well as the painting [?] on Barefoot Bill's website http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabilld-aa3.html and the stained glass window at the Akron Archives http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/man_on_the_bed.html I am curious to know whether people on this list know of other visual representations of the man in the bed that I might add to my archive. They don't have to be famous like these are! Thanks, Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4991. . . . . . . . . . . . As Bill Sees It: changed quotations From: George Ewing . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 8:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've perused As Bill Sees Its for years but only recently noticed that many of the quotes from both the Big Book and Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions are actually NOT quotes, but paraphrases. This disturbs me for a number of reasons, and since I noticed it I've left ASBI on the shelf. Does anyone know a) who decided to paraphrase the source material, b) whether the "letters" and Grapevine article snippets are also paraphrased? Thanks in advance. George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4992. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA member No. 4 From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 11:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An added tragedy for Sue and Ernie occurred a few years after their divorce when their daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking the life of her 6-year-old daughter Sandy on June 11, 1969. Ernie died 2 years later to the day. Also very tragic, Smitty and Betty had a son who committed suicide. Chris - - - - Original message: Good Morning/Afternoon all! Does anyone know who the person is that is referenced in the BB as the fourth member? Thanks - - - - From the moderator: I am assuming that you are referring to the "devil-may-care young fellow" who appears on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.). The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30- year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young man with problems [who must be distinguished from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of the truly great AA good old timers.] Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking for the rest of his life, nevertheless had his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr. Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith but they were later divorced. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4993. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "the man in the bed" From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 11:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would be interested to know when and how Bill Dotson's name became associated with the painting? It was not intended to represent him when it was painted in 1955 by Robert M, a volunteer illustrator for the Grapevine and appeared in the December issue of that year titled "Came to Believe." The setting is obviously not in a hospital. The man on the bed is wearing trousers and an undershirt. There is a bottle of booze on the chest of drawers. The head and foot of the bed are brass, not a hospital bed. If the book one of the men has is supposed to be a Big Book, it wasn't published until almost four years later. One wonders what book Bill and Dr. Bob would have used. It is my understanding that the painting was presented to Bill W by the artist in May of 1956, the following year. It was very popular and the Grapevine provided reproductions of it. When the book Came to Believe was published in 1973, the name of the painting was changed to The Man on the Bed to avoid confusion. It appears at some point people started believing the painting represented Bill Dotson in Akron City Hospital in 1935. I wonder if there is any hard evidence when that happened? Tommy H - - - - Original message: Trysh Travis wrote >I have become interested in the various >representations of "the man in the bed," and >am eager to add to the "gallery" I am making >up. I have collected the photos from the >original Jack Alexander article in the >Saturday Evening Post, as well as the >painting [?] on Barefoot Bill's website > >http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabilld-aa3.html > >and the stained glass window at the Akron >Archives > >http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/man_on_the_bed.html > >I am curious to know whether people on this >list know of other visual representations of >the man in the bed that I might add to my >archive. They don't have to be famous like >these are! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4994. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "the man in the bed" From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2008 10:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't see anything to add to your answer Tommy. It's fairly common to hear members say that the man on the bed represents Bill, Dr Bob and Bill D. What I do is to point out that: (1) the man on the bed is wearing trousers, (2) there is a carpet under the bed, (3) there is a bottle of booze on the dresser and (4) the headboard and footboard of the bed are brass. These would not be found in a room in Akron City Hospital in June 1935. Also, the man in the foreground is holding a book - if the artist intended it to be the Big Book, then that wasn't written until 4 years later in 1939. And then people still go on saying it's Bill, Dr Bob and Bill D. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4995. . . . . . . . . . . . Historical list of all ICYPAA conferences From: Jocelyn . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2008 2:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ~~~~Hey there ... Just joined the group. Found you in my search for a simple list of all the ICYPAAs, their years, cities and themes. I'm the chair of the Chicago ICYPAA bid committee for this year, and would like to peruse this info. Does anyone have any idea where I can locate such a list?? Look forward to seeing you in Oklahoma! Jocelyn Geboy Chair, Chicago ICYPAA Bid Committee - - - - From the moderator: for a general historical account (although this doesn't give you your detailed list) you might look at http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaspecialgroups.html if you haven't already done so. - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "dijmo" wrote: > > The 50th ICYPAA is being held July 3-6, 2008 > in Oklahoma City: http://www.50thicypaa.org > > We have been working with the program commit- > tee to get a slot on the program for a panel > meeting on Saturday afternoon. The likely > title for this panel is "Historical Perspective > on the ICYPAA conference" (from people that > hosted ICYPAA over the decades). > > We would like to have three prearranged > panelists, one that was involved in hosting > an ICYPAA during the 60's, one that was > involved in hosting an ICYPAA during the > 70's and one from the 80's. > > After each of these folks have shared a little > bit about what it was like and what it meant > for their sobriety, we will open it up for > sharing from the floor. > > For those of you who may know of Bill D., he > has agreed to be the Saturday night speaker. > Bill was involved in organizing the first > ICYPAA and the main speaker at the second! > If that's not enough, he first came to AA at > age 19, in New York and attended meetings with > Bill W. and many other early AAs. > > Lizzie Schrock > Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee > lizzieschrock@... > 530/906/9854 > > or > > Melanie Elliott > Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee > melhermann@... > 323/356/0432 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4996. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA member No. 4 and Dr. Bob''s daughter Sue From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2008 6:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wonderful, positive note: Sue married her old sweetheart, Ray Windows in 1975 -- 38 years after she had originally met him! Source: "Children of the Healer" (story of Sue and Smitty) - highly recommended. -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> On Apr 28, 2008, at 11:28 PM, Chris Budnick wrote: > An added tragedy for Sue and Ernie occurred > a few years after their divorce when their > daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking > the life of her 6-year-old daughter Sandy on > June 11, 1969. Ernie died 2 years later to > the day. Also very tragic, Smitty and Betty > had a son who committed suicide. > > Chris > > - - - - > > Original message: > > Good Morning/Afternoon all! > > Does anyone know who the person is that is > referenced in the BB as the fourth member? > > Thanks > > - - - - > > From the moderator: > > I am assuming that you are referring to the > "devil-may-care young fellow" who appears > on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.). > > The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30- > year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young > man with problems [who must be distinguished > from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA > group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of > the truly great AA good old timers.] > > Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking > for the rest of his life, nevertheless had > his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the > first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr. > Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith > but they were later divorced. > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4997. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2008 1:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Below is the text from the Silkworth biography by Dale Mitchell (p. 95 - 101) regarding arguments for Silkworth writing Easy Does It. As mentioned in the email from Jim, it does indicate speculation about Bill Wilson having authored the book. I had forgotten that point from the Silkworth bio. It's a bit of a long email. - - - - On May 26, 1950, a fictional account of an alcoholic called Easy Does It: The Story of Mac was published by P.]. Kenedy and Sons out of New York City during Silkworth's last full year at Knickerbocker Hospital. The author used the pseudonym Hugh Reilly and, according to the dustcover, "has resorted to a narrative which but barely disguises his true experience." Was this author, indeed, William Silkworth? A number of facts lead to this very conclusion. Easy Does It describes a treatment facility and process that mirrors that of Knickerbocker Hospital during the Silkworth management. It outlines the program of Alcoholics Anonymous to a degree of understanding that surpasses that of most of the active members of the fellowship. The Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous and some of the then-unwritten Traditions are explained to a level equal to that of the Big Book. Easy Does It presents facts, fictional characters that strongly resemble important people within early M, and medical descriptions unique to the Silkworth treatment program. More important, the alcoholic mind is dissected through the conversations and thoughts of the main char- acter, Mac. Prior to Easy Does It, early AA was presented in only a few publications, including the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous and a few Bill Wilson AA Grapevine articles. Some of the information contained in Easy Does It cannot be traced to any of these sources. The author of this book must have lived within the inner circles of the program and maintained firsthand knowledge of specific Silkworth treatment attitudes. Only one man could have known the details outlined in Easy Does It - William Silkworth himself. The characters in the book spoke about the exact same medical descriptions, analogies, and quotations Silkworth used over the years in his writings and speeches. Silkworth's nurse, Teddy, is one of the fictional characters in the book. The character matches Teddy in vivid physical detail and personality. The personality description even corresponds to how Teddy described herself in the 1952 article "I'm a Nurse in an Alcoholic Ward." Silkworth himself could not have been better described in physical detail and personality had his own wife written the book. His glowing white hair, his deep blue eyes, even the way he dressed are the attributes of one of the characters. The author held an uncanny knowledge of alcoholism, the Silkworth writings, the allergy theory, and the program specifics of Alcoholics Anonymous. The book uses many phrases that were coined by Silkworth and rarely used by others. The book, which was well received, focuses more on the physical and medical presentation of alcoholism than the spiritual requirements of recovery, yet the spiritual components of recovery are also plainly detailed. Although Silkworth's conversion beliefs are left for secondary conversations between the two main characters, conversion indeed occurs in every case of recovery presented. In accordance with the Silkworth legacy, it is obvious the book lays the ground for a firm base of medical understanding. A presentation of Higher Power and references to God are well placed within the book after the medical descriptions. Had the book been written with a purely AA focus, this might not have occurred. The only reasonable argument against Silkworth authoring the book is that he was an extremely private and humble man. It is said that Silkworth would never write a book about himself that contained such glowing praise for his work. Silkworth always maintained his distance from fame despite the important role he played in the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous. Why would he suddenly step out of character and write a book acknowledging the intelligence and knowledge of alcoholic treatment by a doctor who was obviously himself? We do know that he did nonetheless step out of character and pen a glowing recommendation of himself. The foreword to Easy Does It was written and signed by 'William Duncan Silkworth, Physician-in-Charge of the AA Wing, Knickerbocker Hospital, New York." In this short introduction, Silkworth writes, "The author has long been a close student of the alcoholic problem. He certainly does not write as an amateur." The story describes one of the main characters, Dr. Goodrich, as "a man of exceptional mental and spiritual nature." If it can only be accepted that the Dr. Goodrich character is indeed Dr. Silkworth, then it must be accepted that Silk- worth was still writing a foreword to a book that praised his own work. In his closing statement of the foreword Silkworth states, "It deals with a complex subject, discussed from many angles, often challenging, always vigorous and original." At the time, Silkworth was widely respected as an expert on alcoholism and for his Towns and Knickerbocker treatment models for programs and facilities all over the world. This foreword was no small recommendation. Silkworth endorsed only three books in his writing over his many years: Alcoholics Anon- ymous, The Varieties of Religious Experience, and Easy Does It. This places Easy Does It quite high on the suggested reading list from a man generally married to science and Alco- holics Anonymous. The only other reasonable argument against Silkworth as the author is that Bill Wilson was the author. Next to Silkworth, no one else had the experience at Towns and Knickerbocker Hospitals aside from Bill Wilson. No one could have more precisely described Alcoholics Anonymous. No one could have understood the medical facts presented in the book regarding the allergy theory, and certainly, no one knew the true story of Bill's spiritual awakening. How then do we challenge this theory? First, Bill was known to be gregarious and very public. He wrote many articles and was involved in the writing of two books about his life and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous. Not once did he shy from public praise, quite the contrary. Why would Bill Wilson suddenly decide to write a book on Alcoholics Anony- mous and the life of Dr. Silkworth in an anonymous fashion? Second, Wilson regretted not properly thanking Silkworth more directly, and more frequently, long after Silkworth had died. He would not have made these comments had he actually written a book that did indeed provide such praise for Silkworth. When first informed about the possibility that Silkworth authored Easy Does It by a resource- ful woman named Susan in New Jersey, I set out to prove her wrong. My very first phone call made me begin to question my preconcep- tions. When I called Adelaide Silkworth, the wife of Silkworth's nephew William Silkworth, the first time, we spoke briefly about the project and my desire to find out all I could about the doctor. Her first response was "Are you going to tell them about Easy Does It?" The family has long believed Silkworth to be the author of Easy Does It - a rumor that does not start haphazardly in a family history. Adelaide matter-of-factly talked about how she and her husband have always known and talked openly about Dr. Silkworth being the true author, as though she thought everyone already knew it to be true. If Dr. Silkworth had lived three or four generations earlier, the current family beliefs might be difficult to accept as truth. The fact that he lived at the same time and spent much time with his namesake only strengthens the family history. A secondary source of proof is found in the book review section of the New York Times in 1950. The prerelease book review for Easy Does It names Dr. Silkworth as the author. Minot C. Morgan wrote of this review in the December 8, 1950, Princeton Alumni Weekly, where he discussed Easy Does It and the author. Members of this class may not be aware that one of our classmates is an author named Hugh Reilly, but the following book review in the New York Times reveals his identity to be none other than Dr. Bill Silkworth, who is still devoting his energies and his professional skill in a fine and much-needed humanitarian service: "A fictionalized biography of an 'arrested alco- holic' by an author who writes under the pseudonym of Hugh Reilly will be published on May 26 by P.J Kenedy. 'Easy Does It: The Story of Mac' presents the life of a 'stew-bum,' and the how and why of drinking and how the alcoholic returned to normal life. Dr. William Duncan Silkworth, Physician-in-charge of the Alcoholics Anonymous Wing in Knickerbocker Hospital, says in his foreword: The author very properly integrates the moral therapy and psychology of Alcoholics Anonymous as an essential element in restoring the integrity of the alcoholic." Also the following excerpt from an obituary of Dr. Silkworth was found as a third source: A few months before his death his book, "Easy Does It: The Story of Mac," was published by P.J. Kenedy, the fictionalized biography of an arrested alcoholic, telling the how and why of drinking and explaining the means of recovery, emphasizing the moral therapy and psychology of Alcoholics Anonymous as an essential element in restoring the integrity of the alco- holic. In the publication of the book Billy concealed his identity under the pseudonym of Hugh Reilly, only the foreword being credited to Dr.William Duncan Silkworth. The New York Times had a resource at its finger- tips since lost in the annals of AA history - an original book review. Silkworth's New York Times obituary was matter-of-fact about the authorship of Easy Does It. Certainly, had there been a man named Hugh Reilly, of whom we have been unable to, find any record exists, he would have come forward for his rightful ownership of the book. In fact, the book itself admits the name is a pseudonym. The dedication page of Easy Does It can be viewed as a path to the author's identity. Certainly thousands may have the same initials as those listed on the following dedication page. Yet if we begin with those who had a positive influence on Dr. Silkworth, we can quickly find names that correspond with the initials. TO T. F. M. WITH GRATITUDE FOR ALL THE THINGS THAT WENT INTO HIS BEING "THE FIRST TO UNDERSTAND" AND TO C.E.T WHICH MIGHT ALSO STAND FOR CHRIST EXEMPLIFIED FOR OUR TIMES Only one man in Silkworth's life distinguished as "the first to understand" has the initials T. F. M. And many referred to Thomas Francis Marshall as the first to understand. He was among the first to publicly preach a required "conversion experience" for alcoholic recovery. Long before William James and Joel Steele, Marshall beckoned spiritual conversion as a solution to alcoholism. One of the most ardent supporters of conversion was William Silkworth. Colonel Edward Towns (C.E.T.) was known as a very compassionate and Christian man. Towns and Silkworth became very good friends through the work at Towns Hospital. Many who knew Towns referred to his strong Christian values, and one in parti- cular, the Reverend Harry Emerson Fosdick, called him "an example of Christianity." The introduction to Easy Does It was written with authority. Not with the authority of one man's understanding of one alcoholic, but with one man's experience of many alcoholics. Again, the author praises several founding members and supporters of Alcoholics Anonymous, including "a great man named Bill." The introduction reveals the identity of 'The Padre," one of the main characters of the book, as a composite portrait "not unlike the four immortal chaplains commemorated on a three cent stamp issued by the United States Government." The men, Reverend Samuel Shoemaker, Father Ed Dowling, Reverend Harry Emerson Fosdick, and Reverend Frank Buchman, were all founding spiritual supporters of Alcoholics Anonymous and well known to Silkworth. In his "introduction," the author attempts mainly to offer Alcoholics Anonymous as "the only program that takes cognizance of this whole man in the treatment of the alcoholic and motivates him in a way of life by which he remains sober." Sound familiar? He also, however, sheds light on his true identity. First, the generic language itself is obviously a barometer of Silkworth's prior writings. Almost word for word, in the introduction and in the story told in the book, we find Silkworth's theoretical influence. Either the author knew the content and sum of all Silkworth's writings and speeches, or the author was Silkworth. Phrases like "case history" were used to describe the book's story. These are not words of a non- medical man. The closing paragraph may offer the most poignant sentence in the entire book: I want here to express my fervent appreciation of the inestimable assistance which I received consciously from the spoken and written statements of the eminent doctor whose name and words give luster to this book in the Foreword. . . .Upon review of these facts, there is truly only one option to consider: Dr. Silkworth was the author of Easy Does It. And through this fictional story, he offers the world a glimpse of his private thoughts as one of the founding fathers of AA. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4998. . . . . . . . . . . . Live Easy But Think First From: tsirish1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2008 4:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone KNOW the origin of this practice? Year? Group? Where I can find where the origin is WRITTEN DOWN? Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 4999. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Rollie Hemsley drink again? From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2008 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I know a lot about Rollie's baseball career and his anonymity break, and that he wound up running a real estate office in Langley Park Maryland (where I got sober)up until his death and is buried nearby, but I don't know much about his sobriety. A couple of people I've talked to seem to think he drank again, but I've never seen or heard that from any authoritative source. What can anyone tell me about that? Thanks, Mike M. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5000. . . . . . . . . . . . ICYPAA History From: Andy . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2008 12:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Young People's Groups in Alcoholics Anonymous began appearing around 1945 in Los Angeles, Cleveland, and Philadelphia, and now they can be found all across North America. In 1958, a meeting of young AA's from across the U.S. and Canada started what is now the International Conference of Young People in Alcoholics Anon- ymous (ICYPAA), and it has met on an annual basis ever since. At the 1960 AA Convention, Bill W. noted that the age of new members was much lower than when he and Dr. Bob founded AA 25 years earlier. In a letter to ICYPAA dated June 15, 1969, Bill wrote "... in recent years I have found nothing for greater inspira- tion than the knowledge that A.A. of tomorrow will be safe, and certainly magnificent, in the keeping of you who are the younger genera- tion of A.A. today." ICYPAA was founded for the purpose of pro- viding a setting for an annual celebration of sobriety among young people in AA. Since its inception, a growing group of people, who at first would not consider themselves as "young people," has become regular attendees. The number of young people suffering from alcoholism who turn to AA for help is growing, and ICYPAA helps to carry AA's message of recovery to alcoholics of all ages. This meeting provides an opportunity for young AA's from all over the world to come together and share their experience, strength, and hope as members of Alcoholics Anonymous. AA members who attend an ICYPAA return home better pre- pared to receive young people who come to AA looking for a better way of life. ICYPAA provides visible evidence that large numbers of young people are achieving a lasting and comfortable sobriety in Alco- holics Anonymous. The three legacies of AA -- Recovery, Unity, and Service -- are the backbone of ICYPAA, just as they are throughout AA. ICYPAA has a long history as an established AA conference. It regularly contributes to the AA General Service Office, as well as to the Area Service Structure in the local areas where it is held. ICYPAA and its attendees are also committed to reaching out to the newcomer, and to involvement in every other facet of AA service. ICYPAA participants can often be found serving at the national, state, area, and group levels. Newcomers are shown, by people their own age, that using AA principles in their daily lives and getting involved in AA service can have a significant impact on a lasting and comfort- able sobriety. The 2008 ICYPAA will be held July 3-6 in Oklahoma City, OK Los Angeles, CA 2007 "Solid as Gibralter" New Orleans, LA 2006 "Raise the Bottom" postponed due to Katrina 2005 Orlando, Fl 2004 "we Stopped in Time" Portland, OR 2003 "No-Middle-Of-The-Road Solution" Louisville, KY 2002 "A Design for Living" Detroit, MI 2001 "Rebellion may be Fatal..." Albuquerque, NM 2000 "Miracles Among Us" Houston, TX 1999 "An Experience You Must not Miss" Washington, DC 1998 "The keys of the Kingdom" Estes Park, CO 1997 "The High Road to a New Freedom" Anaheim, CA 1996 "We Absolutely Insist On Enjoying Life" Honolulu, HI 1995 "Willing to go to any lengths" Atlanta, GA 1994 "Together we fly" New York, NY 1993 "Beyond your wildest dreams" Cleveland, OH 1992 "Back to Basics" San Francisco, CA 1991 "There is a Solution" Montreal, PQ 1990 "Heart to Heart around the World" Salt Lake City, UT 1989 "Carry the Message" Nashville, TN 1988 "I am Responsible" Boston, MA 1987 "A Magnificent Reality'" Miami, FL 1986 "Sunlight of the Spirit" Denver, CO 1985 "A Magnificant Reality" Chicago, IL 1984 Cincinnati, OH 1983 New York, NY 1982 Minneapolis, MN 1981 Tucson, AZ 1980 "Sweet Surrender" Vancouver, BC 1979 "Celebrate Sobriety" Atlanta, GA 1978 Houston, TX 1977 Philadelpia, PA 1976 "The Spirit of 76" Memphis, TN 1975 Indianapolis, IN 1974 "We've only just begun" San Francisco, CA 1973 Cleveland, OH 1972 Reno, NV 1971 Fort Worth, TX 1970 Philadelphia, PA 1969 Toronto, Ont. 1968 Denver, CO 1967 St. Louis, MO 1966 Long Beach, CA 1965 Detroit, MI 1964 Columbia, SC. 1963 Hamilton, Ont. 1962 Milwaukee, WI 1961 Philadelphia, PA 1960 Chicago, IL 1959 Niagra Falls, 1958 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5001. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Live Easy But Think First From: Steve Stevenson . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2008 4:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If you arrange the slogans in a particular order and use the first word of each they will spell out: LIVE and let live, EASY does it, BUT for the grace of God, THINK think think, FIRST things first. - - - - Also from: MarionORedstone@aol.com (MarionORedstone at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5002. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Rollie Hemsley drink again? From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2008 10:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to Bob Feller (who attended Hemsley's funeral) and Hemsley's relatives including Daughter, Granddaughter, and many other relatives, Rollie never drank again. In his recorded talk in 1968 he was still using the sobriety date of April l6, 1939. Some have written about Hemsley drinking again, including Susan Cheever in her book on Bill W. She gives the source of her information as PASS IT ON, which does not in fact contain any information to support the claim. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5003. . . . . . . . . . . . Editors of the Second Edition From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2008 10:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The chief editor for the second edition was Edward Hale B., an artist and writer and a nephew (I believe) of a great 19th-century painter of Western scenes. Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose husband was, I think, an original Batman (or was it Superman?) comic artist, Betty T. (I think T., and if so she may later have been active in founding NA), Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of the Grapevine - I don't know), and Ralph B., Bill's neighbor up by Katonah. Which one of them edited the three first- edition stories I can't say, though it might be found out. Arch T. (changed-title story) may have edited his own, as he died after the Second Edition was published. Clarence S.? Clearly Fitz M. didn't. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5004. . . . . . . . . . . . A Rollie Hemsley Story From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2008 8:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This appeared in the Columbus Dispatch today. The last paragraph mentions that Rollie's anonymity break affected his professional career, even many years later. Mike http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbus_bb_1 950.\ ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101 [13] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5005. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: As Bill Sees It: changed quotations From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2008 6:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 19:56 4/28/2008, George Ewing wrote: >I've perused As Bill Sees It for years but >only recently noticed that many of the quotes >from both the Big Book and Twelve Steps and >Twelve Traditions are actually NOT quotes, >but paraphrases. > >This disturbs me for a number of reasons, >and since I noticed it I've left ABSI on >the shelf. It isn't as if they were trying to sneak something by us as Bill W stated in the Foreword to "As Bill Sees It" on p. iv, "Because the quotations used were lifted out of their original context, it has been necessary in the interest of clarity to edit, and sometimes to rewrite, a number of them." >Does anyone know a) who decided to paraphrase >the source material, b) whether the "letters" >and Grapevine article snippets are also >paraphrased? Since the mention of editing was done by Bill, I assume he either did it or leant his approval to what was done. ____________________ That said, I have asked before on this forum why the word transcendence was substituted for victory in the Third Step Prayer on p. 210 and have yet to receive an answer. Its use does not seem to meet the criteria Bill listed. Big Book Third Step Prayer p. 63: "Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of Life." As Bill Sees It Third Step Prayer p. 210: "Take away my difficulties, that my transcendence over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of Life." ____________________ I would note that many things change over the years. The Serenity Prayer we use is different from the way Niebuhr wrote it, according to his daughter. Scholars tell us the Christian Bible has been changed thru the ages, but since we have no original drafts, we have to depend on textual analysis for attempts at what was originally written. The Foreword to the Fourth Edition of the Big Book was changed almost as soon as it was published, and I know of at least one local Big Book Study that deems the First Printing to be inappropriate for study. Go figure. ____________________ Off the top of my head, I am aware of only about a half dozen places in "As Bill Sees It" where editing has taken place, usually taking sentences out to make the selection shorter. There is no indication in the A.A.W.L./A.B.S.I. where this has been done, but that is certainly not unusual. I use the book in my daily routine and usually think of the changes only when I get to p. 210. Your experience obviously has been different. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - From Laurie A. (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Re George Ewing's query about who was to blame for paraphrasing AA literature in "As Bill Sees It". There's no mystery - Bill himself was responsible! See his foreword: "Because the quotations used were lifted out of their original context, it has been necessary in the interest of clarity to edit, and sometimes to rewrite, a number of them..." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5006. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Editors of Second Edition: Betty T. From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2008 1:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A "Betty Thom" was involved with the HFD (Habit Forming Drugs) groups in California and had correspondence with Bill W. around 1954. I've never come across any indication that she was involved with the founding of Narcotics Anonymous in 1953. One reference I saw indicated that she did a lot of writing and that HFD meetings were often held in conjunction with AA meetings. Here is the quote from a talk given by a gentleman named Scott A. in 1991: "Unrelated to that, in 1950, we also know that there were Habit Forming Drug groups taking place in Los Angeles, California, usually in conjunction with AA meetings. They were also held in homes. The principal person behind them was a lady named Betty Thom. She did a lot of writing. A member of our region used to live up in Vista before he died. Last year a friend of mine and I were allowed to go through some of his books and papers, and he had inches of writing from this HFD group. They had a 12 Step guide. They had a bunch of various articles that were type-written out on pages like maybe a magazine article before it got published or something. They were very committed that the 12 Steps could work for recovery from addiction." Does anyone have additional information on her or the accuracy of the above statement? Chris - - - - From: jlobdell54 Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 Subject: Editors of the Second Edition The chief editor for the second edition was Edward Hale B., an artist and writer and a nephew (I believe) of a great 19th-century painter of Western scenes. Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose husband was, I think, an original Batman (or was it Superman?) comic artist, Betty T. (I think T., and if so she may later have been active in founding NA), Tom (whether P. - of the 12&12 - or Y. - of the Grapevine - I don't know), and Ralph B., Bill's neighbor up by Katonah. Which one of them edited the three first- edition stories I can't say, though it might be found out. Arch T. (changed-title story) may have edited his own, as he died after the Second Edition was published. Clarence S.? Clearly Fitz M. didn't. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5007. . . . . . . . . . . . Transcription of Henrietta Seiberling''s remarks? From: Rotax Steve . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2008 12:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just recently heard from a speaker (Keith L.) that in the mid 1970's, Henrietta Seiberling was asked to be a speaker and she was ill and could not do it. Her son spent some time with her asking a lot of questions which he recorded to take to the event. His recording was said to have been transcribed. Do any of you know of this and more importantly do any of you have a copy of the transcription? Was the recording ever kept and copied, or did this even happen? LOL, on a more humorous note, I just spell- checked the above and the only correction suggestion for Seiberling was "Sobering." Thanks ~ Rotax Steve IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5008. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A Rollie Hemsley Story From: Mark . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2008 5:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey Mike, Thanks for the article, but I have a bit of a nit to pick. The words in the article were... "Hemsley was a recovering alcoholic, and management feared he started drinking again and that fueled some of his unorthodox decisions," and that does not talk about any anonymity break, or any possible membership in any specific recovery organization which might be concerned about anonymity breaks. Thanks again for pointing us to this article. Mark E. Lebanon, Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5009. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A Rollie Hemsley Story From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2008 7:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It still only says management "feared" he may have been drinking again ... still no definitive answer. My hope is that he didn't drink again. I just want to know (as much as one can at this point) before I correct someone who says he drank after his original sobriety date. I've had two people, who normally are sure of their facts, say that he drank again. I told them I thought he did NOT drink again, as far as I knew, and they seemed surprised. Neither could say where they read that and as far as I can see from what I've read, (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, Pass it On, Not God) I can't find anything that says he did. Thanks, -Mike M. In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > This appeared in the Columbus Dispatch today. > The last paragraph mentions that Rollie's > anonymity break affected his professional > career, even many years later. > > Mike > > http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbu s_bb_1950.ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5010. . . . . . . . . . . . What determines the date AA is founded in a city? From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2008 6:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As an alcoholic my sobriety date is the date I started my journey towards continuous sobriety. If I drink, my date is recalculated from the date of the last drink. Many cities, however, consider the date that AA came to the city as the date of their 1st meeting. In Philadelphia, it would be Feb. 28,1940. AA started that day and has continued uninterrupted to date. Los Angeles says their 1st meeting was December 19, 1939. In the booklet "How A. A. Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us now)",it says, "Mort J came to Los Angeles. He telephoned A. A. in New York and Ruth Hock gave him Kaye Miller's telephone number and address where she lived and had meetings. He went over and asked "Where's the meeting?" "There are no meetings any more." Kaye said, "I'm disgusted. I'm going to Hawaii or Europe." "Where are all the members of A. A," he asked. "They are all drunk," she said bitterly. Mort J got in touch with Dr. Ethyl Leonard. She worked with alcoholics. She happened to be the house physician for the Cecil Hotel on Main street. Through the good offices of Dr. Leonard, Mort J rented a large room on the mezzanine for $5.00. This was the first public meeting of A. A. It was on a Friday at 8 PM, in March of 1940,"and meetings in LA have continued uninterrupted since that date. Is the date of a city'd continuous meetings considered the date A. A. was founded there, or is it the date of the 1st meeting which never continued or "slipped"? Many cities use the 1st meeting date as bragging rights but sobriety is considered as continuous. I hope that some of you can help clarify this matter. See you in Niagara Falls NY in Sept. Natl .Archives workshop Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5011. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given by John Sieberling From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2008 9:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A transcription of her talk is at http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/billwilsonmeetingsieberling.htm - - - - A reference to this source was also sent in by (elg3_79 at yahoo.com) - - - - From: "Maria Hoffman" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) A transcript is also posted on Barefoots World: http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaorighenriettas.html - - - - From: "rajiv.behappy" (rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com) A transcript is given in the Fall 1985, Employee Assistance Quarterly ISSN: 0749-0003 A part of the tape recording of the conversation was played by her son John F. S. at the 1971 Founders Day meeting in Akron. Much love from India, Rajiv Bhole - - - - From: Jocelyn (prpllady51 at yahoo.com) I recently heard this recording again at the Seiberling Estate (Stan Hywet Hall) at the Gate House. They have copies available for purchase at the gift shop. I don't know if a transcription is available. You may want to check with the curators/management. Here is a link to the gift shop, and as you can see you can order the CD for a cost of $10.00. I highly recommend a personal trip. Beside the AA history there,the estate is alive with all sort of activities as well as an amazing botanical garden. http://www.stanhywet.org/product/item-13875999-7198-4fe2-85fc-93cb4507e4d6.a spx Regards, Jocelyn - - - - This was also sent in by: "Chris Budnick" Jerry Riley IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5012. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Betty T. From: Sober186@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2008 8:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It might have been Superman, which was created by Jerome Siegel (who wrote the story lines) and Joe Shuster (who was the original artist). Both were from the Cleveland area. Siegel created the character as we know it in 1934. The comic was first published in Action Comics in the late 1930s. Jim in Columbus - - - - In a message dated 5/12/2008 cbudnick@nc.rr.com writes: Subject: Editors of the Second Edition ...Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose husband was, I think, an original Batman (or was it Superman?) comic artist,... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5013. . . . . . . . . . . . Upcoming Events (June 2008) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 10:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Annual Bill Wilson Day Celebrating the 73rd Anniv. of the founding of AA June 1, 2008 at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson was born) 378 Village Street East Dorset, VT 05253 For more info call 802/362/5524 ********** The AA Traditions & History Group along with the Alcoholics in Action Group invite you to an afternoon with Renowned AA Historian & Archivist Jay S. from Redondo Beach CA Come & hear Jay's inspiring & informative talks on the Akron miracle, The Oxford Group & our early AA roots. Free Door Prize! Saturday, June 7, 2008, 2:00 - 5:00PM St. Joseph's School Cafeteria 44th Street & 30th Avenue (enter at 44th Street) Astoria (Queens), NY 11103 For more info call 718/701/5801 ********** Come Celebrate Founders' Day 73rd Anniversary of AA June 6 - 8, 2008 in Akron OH, Birthplace of AA For more info go to http://www.akronaa.org/ & click on "Founders' Day" ********** 56th Annual Stepping Stones Picnic June 7, 2008 - 12noon to 5:00PM (rain or shine) At the historic home of Bill & Lois Wilson 62 Oak Road Katonah (Bedford Hills), NY 10536 914/232/4822 Open Speaker Meeting starts at 2:00PM with Greg M. from New York - General Manager of GSO (AA) Ric B. from Virginia (Al-Anon) Mercedes V. from Mexico (Alateen) For more info go to www.steppingstones.org ********** The “Hightstown Early Birds” Group presents An AA History Presentation with 250 Pictures of Early AA with Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:00AM – 11:45AM First Presbyterian Church 320 North Main Street Hightstown, NJ 08520 Pictures of the Washingtonians, Frank Buchman, Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves, Ebby T., Bill & Lois W., Bill W.'s parents & grandparents, Lois W.'s parents, Dr. Bob & family, all the Ohio and Vermont places, Henrietta Seiberling, Bill D., Ernie G., Clarence S., Sister Ignatia, all the New York and New Jersey places, Charlie Towns & Dr. Silkworth, Hank P., when the early literature was published, the Rockefeller dinner, gravesites, etc. It's very exciting, combining the stories with the images. For more information please call Barefoot Bill at 201/232/8749 (cell). ********** Multi-District History & Archives Gathering Registration opens at 8 a.m. on Saturday June 21, 2008 at the St. Cecilia's Social Hall 750 State Drive Lebanon PA 17042 Suggested topics for panels are: **The Messengers to Ebby (Rowland H., Shep C., Cebra G.) **AA and Baseball **AA and Films/Theatre **Early Days in the Mid-Atlantic Region **AA Pioneers **A Panel on Coming into AA in the Eastern Pennsylvania Area in October 1970 (three old friends who have known each other in sobriety for more than 35 years). The Gathering is FREE with morning refreshments and lunch provided. End time about 4:30-5:00 p.m. Contact the Chairman at histandarch@comcast.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5014. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given by John Sieberling From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 2:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This Henrietta transcript is already on AA History Lovers from when Nancy was still facilitating. Message 138 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/138 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5015. . . . . . . . . . . . 26 Big Book Prayers From: Hal . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2008 8:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am on the hunt for a list of what I have been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can anyone help point me in the right direction? THANKS! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5016. . . . . . . . . . . . Filmmakers seek memorabilia on Cornwall Press for A.A. film From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 12:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first printing of the Big Book was printed by Cornwall Press in 1939. Some NYC filmmakers are seeking memorabilia about this press for a film they are making on the history of A.A. ______________________________ I came across the following story: "NYC filmmakers seek memorabilia on Cornwall Press era for A.A. film" By Michael Randall Times Herald-Record May 12, 2008 CORNWALL - Check your attic, your basement and your storage space. You might be able to help make a movie. Some New York City-based documentary film- makers are working on a movie that will tell the story of Alcoholics Anonymous. The story has a local angle: The first edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous," the fellowship group's basic textbook (also commonly known as "The Big Book") was printed by the Cornwall Press in 1939. But the business is long gone, and director Kevin Hanlon and co-producer Dahlia Kozlowsky say they've run into dead ends trying to locate films, photographs or any other kind of visual memorabilia of the Cornwall Press, particularly from the '30s or '40s that would evoke the era when the book was published. So they're appealing to the public for help. They figure somebody who used to work at the Cornwall Press, or perhaps their sons and daughters, might have some old movies or photos from that era stored away somewhere. A.A. grew out of a meeting in Akron, Ohio, between a New York stockbroker, Bill W., and an Akron surgeon, Dr. Bob S. The beginnings of A.A. were detailed in a 1989 TV movie, "My Name is Bill W.," starring James Woods and James Garner, but this will be the first feature-length documentary on the subject, Hanlon said. "I was shocked nobody ever made a documentary (about this) before," he said. Hanlon said he was inspired to do the film because he's known a number of alcoholics who got sober through A.A. and its 12-step program. The filmmakers haven't shot any local footage yet, but they say that could happen later. They don't know when it will be released; they're still sorting through what Kozlowsky describes as enough material "to make a 10-week series on PBS, but that's probably not" where it will end up playing. mrandall@th-record.com Anyone with film, photographs or other memorabilia of the Cornwall Press in the 1930s/1940s can call Kozlowsky at 212/229/1358 or e-mail her at Dkozlowsky@gmail.com (Dkozlowsky at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5017. . . . . . . . . . . . The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles From: charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2008 2:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group, I don’t know if I can answer the question how to determine when AA officially comes to a city, but I might be able to shed some light on early AA in Southern California. How and when AA came to Los Angeles is not as heated a topic today as it used to be. It is my understanding this topic actually divided some of the early members here. According to Kaye Miller the first AA meeting was held in her home December 19, 1939. She was a nonalcoholic who offered her home for that meeting. In a letter to Bill W., dated February 8 1947, she wrote about her recollection of early AA in LA. In this letter she states that her meeting moved to Glendale after a couple weeks and rotated back and forth. She also stated Mort J., attended her meeting and didn’t come to LA until April 1940. In a February 1952 Grapevine article it also cast a shadow on the starting date for Mort’s Cecil Hotel meeting and goes along the same lines of Kaye’s recollections. ( Don't have a copy of that article handy) I do not have the whole story, but what I have pieced together so far as to who founded AA in Los Angeles came to a head in March 1951. Bill came out to the West Coast to help members elect a delegate to the first General Service Conference. During the Saturday night meeting the story of how AA got started in LA was told and apparently made it look like Mort was the sole founder of AA in Los Angeles. The story did not settle well with some of the early AAs and this started a heated letter writing campaign to set the record straight. Letters were sent to members, groups and central offices with a copy of Kaye’s 1947 letter trying to show what they believed to be an accurate account of how AA got started in LA, but it didn’t do much good. The little blue booklet "How A. A. Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us now)" was printed in the early 1980’s by the Southern California Archives Committee. When it first came out there were jokes that they had to wait until some long timers died before they dared published their version. From what I know now I am not surprised if there was some truth in those jokes. Even AA Comes of Age (page 91) has a version similar to the blue booklet. Kaye Miller had gotten an advanced cope of AA Comes of Age and was very irritated with Bill’s version of events. While doing research a couple years age at the GSO Archives in New York I saw at least 2 letters from Kaye to Bill pleading with him to revise his version before it was published. He did make a couple of changes but nothing like Kaye wanted. In one of Kaye’s letters she even hinted some of the blame falls with Mort for not setting the record straight back in 1951 when he had a chance. The 1947 letter might generate more questions than answers, but I feel it shows Kaye's meeting was going strong when Mort started his meeting despite what the booklet says. I plan on doing some research in the LA Central Office Archives in June on other topics but maybe I can find out some additional informa- tion on this subject at that time. I have included the redacted text of the 1947 letter for you to enjoy. Hope this helps Charles from California ****************************************** February 8, 1947 To: Messrs: Bill W., Luis A., Barney H., Clarence O’B., Ham B., Fred H., Frank S., Pete C., Johnny Howe, Hal S., Dee G., Mort J., Cliff W., “Doc” H., Al M., Editor, The Eye Opener This is just one of those rambling "remem- bering when" things. If most of you think I'm off my rocker for writing this, that's O.K., because where else but in A.A. could I do odd things without fear of finger pointing? It's a "first among you cast the first stone" deal, isn't it? Third time's the charm. I first heard about A.A. though Andy in 1937 -- remember, Bill? It wasn’t AA then -- The Book hadn't been published yet. But I was sure Ty wouldn't go for it. Smart guy I was -- I didn't even tell him, just because God was involved. Then we telephoned you in 1938, Bill -- but Ty wasn't "ready". Then in April 1939 came to us in West Los Angeles a mimeographed copy of the Book. Did you keep that hysterical and (I fear) dramatic telegram I sent - and the follow-up? I shall never forget the utter despair that filled me at your reply: "There is a group in Akron, Ohio". Ohio! where Ty was facing commitment for life if I returned him and left him. Well- that ended right--with Ty in A.A. But I remember that though I couldn't believe you were alcoholics--you and Bob and Hank and Marty, I still said that when I returned to L.A. that I'd be glad to tell anyone who was as desperate as I had been that I'd seen 100 of you who said you'd been alcoholics and that I knew you were decent members of society now. But I got on an A.A. jag on the boat coming back to L.A. Remember Pat C. and how he got sober on the advance sheets of the Book--his story "Lone Endeavor" was in the first edition. I looked him up as you asked me to Bill. I know he slipped and went Fast--but at long last he is again trying A.A. He may make it this time. You sent me contacts, Bill, but there wasn't enough of them, so I asked Alma Whitaker of the Times to help--and she did. From June 1939 to late November and nothing definite accomplished--then our great and wonderful break! On December 1st, 1939 was sent to Johnny Howe, who was then Psychopathic Probation Officer of A.A. county. He devoured the Book and turned over to help A.A. all the vast resources of L.A. County He and that wonderful Mrs. Dodge! Then almost the same day came the letter from Ruth Hock, New York office's secretary, telling me that Lee T. was coming to L.A. Here was opportunity -- a real live member of A.A. coming here! We chose December 19th as the date and I wrote to everyone who'd contacted me, and on that date in my little house on Benecia in West Los Angeles the following met: Lee and Chuck T., Barney and Ethel H., Chauncey and Edna C., Dwight S. and his sister, Joey and Mrs. S., three non-alcoholic women, Johnny Howe and me! Do you still have that telegram I sent in such triumph: "Los Angeles held its first meeting tonight. Fifteen present." Two meetings at my house, then we moved to Barney H.s in Glendale, then back to my house on Gower in Hollywood in February, 1940. We alternated between Barney and Ethel's house and mine. By then Hal and Estelle S. had joined us (January 18, 1940). What a terrific thing you did in starting the San Diego group in the jail, Hal, and in starting the groups in Lincoln Heights. From December 19, 1939 to the present time, Barney has never let a week go by without at least one meeting attended. Clarence Mc. joined us in early February or late January, 1940, and though he was a bar-tender, never so much as sniffed at a drink from that time on. All unbeknownst to us, another grand member had been born. Mort J. got sober in Palm Springs between Christmas and New Years of 1939. It was in early April, 1940 you telephoned me, Mort, wasn't it? You said you had tried to start a group in Denver and hadn't had too much success and had decided to come back to L.A. and had gotten my name and address from Bill. I treasured for years the florist card on which you said: "For you graciousness, you friendship and unfailing hospitality", and the postscript you wrote on one of those letters I sent weekly and some- times daily to Bill reporting your progress: "What this country needs is not a good five cent cigar, but more Kayes." Is that still on file, Bill? I blessed my secretarial training for those carbon copies I kept, so I could trace our progress. In February Lee started the group that became the Pasadena Home Group. One very illustrious early member of that group was "Doc" H. – he led the downtown beginners group for years. Then she went to San Francisco. Now I hear she's in Florida. Los Angeles will always be grateful to Lee for her untiring efforts for us here. It was she who got the City Mother of the Examiner to give us a break, and it was she who got Ted Le Berthon's publicity for us. Bill B. came to us in about March of 1940 and what a God-send he was. Sober - a member of the Chicago Group--wonderfully steady. How he helped us in those trying early days. Then he, too, went to San Francisco. Frank C. joined us while we were meeting in the house we'd rented as a clubhouse on Crescent Heights in 1940 (either March of April). What a relief it was to be able to be sure the group was in your capable hands, Mort, when I went back to Honolulu in May of 1940, and what a splendid job you did in building up the group and laying the foundation for all the many groups here in the Los Angeles area. L.A. will never forget Frank R., and the wonderful work he and you did working together. I don't know exactly when Frank came in, but it was after May 5, 1940. Now that I am again faced with leaving Southern California A.A., I desperately want to straighten up any misunderstanding. Joy S. is the oldest member in point of sobriety in A.A., but he hasn’t been to a meeting since April or May of 1940. Barney H. was at the first meeting, too, but he had a little trouble at first. Hal S. is the oldest member who stayed sober and came to meetings starting January 18, 1940. Mort Joseph was sober three weeks before Hal, but didn't come to a meeting in L.A. until about April (1940) (Bill's office would have the exact date). That original gang was the foundation of the group now known as the "Mother Group". They outgrew our homes and rented space at the Cecil Hotel, from there they progressed--when I was here in March of 1941 they met at the Elk's Temple. A.A. in Southern California is so pure and unadulterated, don't spoil it EVER. If there MUST be any glory attached to A.A., let it rest equally on Barney, Hal and Mort, and on all those people who tried so valiantly in those earl days-- and Bill P., Wally K., Owen F. --A.A. is too big for petty squabbles. The truth is bound to come out. What does it matter who was first? We've pioneered so many things here in L.A.-all men and all women groups, colored groups and non-alcoholic groups. If they exist in the East, I couldn't find them in Chicago or Washington, D.C. I shall always remember Bill Wilson's words to me: "Though I am proud to have been an early member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I'd still sell my title as `Founder' for $1.98." That's true humility, and if it's good enough for Bill, it's good enough for me. /s/ Kay Miller `Scuse the lousy typing ****************************************** Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote in Message 5010, "What determines the date AA is founded in a city?" Los Angeles says their 1st meeting was December 19, 1939. In the booklet "How A. A. Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us now)",it says, "Mort J came to Los Angeles. He telephoned A. A. in New York and Ruth Hock gave him Kaye Miller's telephone number and address where she lived and had meetings. He went over and asked "Where's the meeting?" "There are no meetings any more." Kaye said, "I'm disgusted. I'm going to Hawaii or Europe." "Where are all the members of A. A," he asked. "They are all drunk," she said bitterly. Mort J got in touch with Dr. Ethyl Leonard. She worked with alcoholics. She happened to be the house physician for the Cecil Hotel on Main street. Through the good offices of Dr. Leonard, Mort J rented a large room on the mezzanine for $5.00. This was the first public meeting of A. A. It was on a Friday at 8 PM, in March of 1940,"and meetings in LA have continued uninterrupted since that date. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5018. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles From: Charles Grotts . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/16/2008 6:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If you get the cassette tape of a program in 1975, hosted by Sybil, where Mort J. and some of the old-timers who founded AA in Los Angeles spoke, it will provide you with a lot of information about how AA started in 1939 in Los Angeles, died out, and was revived in 1940. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5019. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2008 9:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Folks, This is Mel B. from Toledo offering an opinion about the start of AA in Los Angeles. I interviewed Kaye Miller in Sarasota and her former husband, Ty Miller, in Cleveland, both around 1980. Ty, unfortunately, was so far gone with Alzheimer's that he couldn't come up with any accurate memories. In October, 1948, I heard a Glendale man named Barney Haller speak in Santa Barbara. He said that a group of them were meeting at the request of the courts in 1939, but their meeting wasn't AA at the time. Then a woman wearing a fur coat and carrying a Big Book popped into one of their meetings and told how the program had helped her ex-husband. I believe this was Kaye Miller, and she had carried the book from the East on a trip to the West. Barney apparently claimed this as the start of AA in LA. I don't know if this can be verified or not. But I toss it into the hopper as another opinion. I did see Barney once again and as late as 1959, when he was still an active member of the Glendale group. However AA got to California, it really took off when it did. Ohio led all the states in AA membership until 1948, when California took the lead. We can assume California has had the lead ever since. My theory is that California was already full of people who had taken geographical cures by moving west. Once they got to California, they couldn't go any farther so they had no choice but to sober up! Mel Mel Barger < melb@accesstoledo.com > (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5020. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 26 Big Book Prayers From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2008 12:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Debi Ubernosky" (dkuber1990 at verizon.net) A Google search of "Prayers of the Big Book" returned this: http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ppgaa6%20Articles/Big%20Book%20Prayers.doc which is what I've seen before. Alternately, go to http://www.ppgaadallas.org/aa_articles.htm and scroll down to "Prayers of the Big Book" and click to download the MS Word doc. Debi - - - - From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) Please go to: http://www.justloveaudio.com click on "free resources" then click on "12 Steps" then click on "Step 10 & 11" then click on "Step 11 Prayers in the Big Book" Happy hunting! Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - - From: "Donna Bridges" (donnabridges1018 at gmail.com) Start at page i, read through page 164 and note as you find them...I'm sorry, I'm channeling my sponsor hugs to all, db - - - - From: Jocelyn Geboy (jocelyngeboy at sbcglobal.net) i'm curious what you find out ... i find these places where prayer is *explicitly* mentioned, but i was going through the book pretty fast ... pp. 59, 63, 67, 68, 69, 76, 83, 84, 85, 86, 86, 87, and 87 jocelyn - - - - Original Message No. 5015 From Hal (hallaws at yahoo.com) > I am on the hunt for a list of what I have > been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can > anyone help point me in the right direction? > > THANKS! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5021. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Tom P. From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008 4:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message #5003 from (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) noted that "the chief editor for the second edition was Edward Hale B." It went on to say that other editors included "Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of the Grapevine - I don't know)." ______________________________ In a further message (18 May 2008) to mdingle76@yahoo.com (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) Jared Lobdell added the following remark: "Thanks very much. My guess had been it was Tom P (rather than Tom Y) but I wasn't sure. I'd be interested to know which was the story Tom included that some AAs didn't like (or whose author they didn't like)." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5022. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles From: Doris Ringbloom . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940 at the South Pasadena Women's club. When people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper, or Los Angeles county. Doris R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5023. . . . . . . . . . . . California Supreme Court From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2008 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anybody have any information on this subject? Thanks ....the California Supreme Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the California schools on the grounds that Hazelden was promoting a religion. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5024. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2008 6:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "John Blair" (jblair at wmis.net) Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous: Nautis Project on UTube See http://www.nautis.com/2008/05/22/jung-alcoholics-anonymous/ Or go directly to YouTube and see the original video directly. It was posted by: amourxxx112, and is entitled "Jung, Alcoholics Anonymous, And Drug Seeking Behaviour" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceoB-tE5yWI IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5025. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: who founded AA in Los Angeles / Pasadena From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008 5:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Unless I am mistaken, didn't Duke P. start AA in Toledo? I heard him speak at his 56 year (I think) anniversary in 99 or 2000 near Jacksonville Florida. He spoke a little about Toledo but that was all. He didn't mention California. We are talking about the Duke P. from "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers," correct? - - - - Message #5022 from "Doris Ringbloom" (dringbloom at netzero.net) Re: The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940 at the South Pasadena Women's club. When people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper, or Los Angeles county. Doris R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5026. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: who founded AA in Los Angeles / Pasadena From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2008 7:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A historical footnote to Pasadena AA: Thanks to the founding of an AA group around 1940 (this seems to be an unresolved date so far - does GSO have a record?), a local resident, Tom Pike, joined in 1946. Three years later, in 1949, his equally famous wife, Katherine, already a community leader (but not an alcoholic), founded the Pasadena affiliate of the National Council on Alcoholism. Pasadena was the second Calif NCA affiliate, after Santa Barbara. Both Pikes became prominent leaders in NCA nationally. This is a good example of AA's spillover effect in many, many communities. Once AA was established, NCA (NCADD today) then became a primary mover and shaker in stimulating communities to undertake the myriad tasks of reducing the stigma of addiction that AA could not, e.g. education beyond the AA membership about addiction, lobbying for adequate medical care of alcoholics, influencing local, state, and federal legislation on behalf of alcoholics, etc. Marty Mann, the founder of NCA and herself a very early member of AA (1939, NYC), said her organization might never have got off the ground if AA didn't already exist as an excellent resource and solution for referral. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ Coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous 1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309 www.sallyanddavidbrown.com Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650/325/5258 - - - - Note from the moderator: Tom Pike and Brinkley Smithers personally lobbied President Nixon, their fellow Republican, in support of the Hughes Act. Brink eventually also enlisted the support of Don Kendall, the CEO of Pepsi, and Nixon finally signed the bill, which was the most important piece of successful alcoholism legislation in U.S. history. This provided the basis, in many crucial ways, of the modern alcoholism and drug addiction treatment center. See the book by Nancy Olson, who founded the AAHistoryLovers, "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism," for the full story of how a small number of AA members combined forces to get that epoch-making piece of legis- lation passed and implemented by the U.S. Congress. http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5027. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2008 3:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I know there were simlar court cases slightly related to it. There is a movement to have AA labeled as religion: http://www.sfgate.com/flat/archive/2007/09/07/chronicle/archive/2007/09/07/B A99S\ 1AKQ.html [14] San Francisco Chronicle Parolees can't be forced into Alcoholics Anonymous, court rules Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer Friday, September 7, 2007 SAN FRANCISCO - Alcoholics Anonymous, the renowned 12-step program that directs problem drinkers to seek help from a higher power, says it's not a religion and is open to nonbelievers. But it has enough religious overtones that a parolee can't be ordered to attend its meetings as a condition of staying out of prison, a federal appeals court ruled today. In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional dividing line between church and state in such cases is so clear that a parole officer can be sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous or an affiliated program for drug addicts. Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have established that "requiring a parolee to attend religion-based treatment programs violates the First Amendment," the court said. "While we in no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance in their programs may not be coerced by the state." The 12 steps required for participants in both programs include an acknowledgment that "a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity," and a promise to "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." They also call for prayer and meditation. Today's 3-0 ruling allows a Honolulu man to go to trial in a suit on behalf of his late father, Ricky Inouye, who was paroled from a drug sentence in November 2000. A Buddhist, he objected to religiously oriented drug treatment in prison, sued state officials over the issue, and told Hawaii parole authorities just before his release that he would object to any condition that included a treatment program with religious content. When Inouye was arrested for trespassing in March 2001 and tested positive for drugs, his parole officer, Mark Nanamori, ordered him to attend a Salvation Army treatment program that included participation in Narcotics Anonymous meetings, the court said. Inouye showed up but refused to participate, dropped out after two months, and, for that and other reasons, was sent back to prison in November 2001 for violating his parole. After his release in 2003, he sued Nanamori and others for violating his constitutional rights. Inouye died while the suit was pending and his son took over the case. A federal judge dismissed the suit, saying officers are required to pay damages for violating constitutional rights only when those rights are already clearly established. But the appeals court said Nanamori should have known in 2001 that coerced participation in a religion-based program was unconstitutional, because eight state and federal courts had ruled on the issue by then and all had agreed that a parolee has a right to be assigned to a secular treatment program. E-mail Bob Egelko at begelko@sfchronicle.com (begelko at sfchronicle.com) - - - - Original message From (jax760 at yahoo.com) Does anybody have any information on this subject? Thanks ....the California Supreme Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the California schools on the grounds that Hazelden was promoting a religion. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5028. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2008 3:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mitchell K. and Bill Middleton - - - - From "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) It is interesting that this would even be called a subject. It sounds like something quoted out of the writing of Secret Agent Orange from the Orange-Papers or some other AA bashing site. I would think right off the top of my head that no suppreme court would ban all literature from any publisher regardless whether or not that publisher promoted religion. Secondly, despite what those folks in AA Basher land would like to think, I do not recall any court ruling that AA was a religion. Many courts have ruled that AA was religious in nature and a religious activity but again, I do not recall any ruling stating that AA was a religion. I don't engage in a debate with AA bashers, especially students of Secret Agent Orange. Orange has a great Curriculum called "Propaganda and Debating Techniques" on how to engage "steppers" in debate with some really neat arguments. One will never win with these folks (whatever win means) as their agenda is not to debate or discuss but to frustrate. Upon review of the web site of the California Courts ( http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/ ) I found nothing about this what I believe is another urban legend. I also reviewed the California Department of Education web site and again, found nothing relating to this. Most governmental agencies, bowing to court rulings stating that AA is a religious activity no longer mandate attendance at meetings or mandating reading AA literature. One such edict can be found at http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm - The New York State Office of Alcoholism and Substance Abuse Services Local Services Bulletin #2002-05 It goes into detail about "the providers who mandate participation in A.A., is a violation of the principle of separation of church and state." Simply put according to what I looked at on the net - URBAN LEGEND - - - - From: William Middleton (wmiddlet44 at yahoo.com) I "Googled" that sentence and it returned this address.... http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html That article said: "Kurtz, in Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous, 1991, page 281, says that one large treatment agency accounts for two thirds of the outside sales of A.A.W.S. literature. Without a doubt, that one treatment agency is Hazelden. They so aggressively redistribute A.A. literature that the California Supreme Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the California schools on the grounds that Hazelden was promoting a religion." May GOD Bless You! Bill - - - - Original message from (jax760 at yahoo.com) Does anybody have any information on this subject? Thanks ....the California Supreme Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the California schools on the grounds that Hazelden was promoting a religion. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5029. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2008 5:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From crescentdave, dikilee, and chief_roger - - - - From "David" (crescentdave at yahoo.com) Here's one piece of the puzzle: per Michael J. Bohn, M.D., Clinical Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, U.W. Medical School, Gateway Recovery, Madison, WI reported in 1994: AA and Hazelden materials religious and banned from California Youth Authority classrooms. Note: this is NOT the same as regular public schools. cit: http://dhfs.wisconsin.gov/substabuse/Education/Teleconference/ArchivedMateri als/\ 2002presentations/AATALK021202.pdf. [15] - - - - From: "Dick" (dikilee at yahoo.com) There was a 1994 California case: California State Employees Association vs. The California Youth Authority, in which the court held that Hazelden materials could not be used in CYA classrooms. I do not believe this was the California Supreme Court as a year later it was thrown out by another judge. - - - - From: ROGER WHEATLEY (chief_roger at yahoo.com) I found this on an atheist website along with other litigation supporting their view that AA is a religious organization. "In 1994, all materials from Hazelden Publications, a publishing arm of AA, were ordered out of California Youth Authority classrooms. Additionally, decrees announcing the right to refuse Twelve-Step participation were posted in all living quarters." http://www.americanatheist.org/spr97/T2/piety.html - - - - Original message from (jax760 at yahoo.com) Does anybody have any information on this subject? Thanks ....the California Supreme Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the California schools on the grounds that Hazelden was promoting a religion. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5030. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2008 6:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Even though this is a reply to an oldie here is some more biographical info about Ray... Raymond M. Campbell was approximately 44 years old when he designed the Dust Jackets for the Big Book. He was born on 12, September 1894 in New Haven Connecticut. During his lifetime he lived in Connecticut and Manhattan (NYC). In 1938, Ray lived at the Gipsy Trail Club in Kent, NY which had a Carmel, NY mailing address. Circa 1921 he married a woman named Fanny who was born in NY around 1891. Fanny predeceased Ray. Ray died in Orange, Connecticut (New Haven County) on 15, January 1986. Even though according to the US Census, Ray was listed as a printer and artist and folks have said he was a recognized artist, I have yet to find any examples of his art work other than the Dust Jacket. Nell Wing told me that Ray had painted a portrait of Jesus that was supposed to have been a real work of art. Neither she nor Lois remembered where that portrait ended up. I am continuing to research to find more information. I also tracked down a relative of T. E. Borton whose home one of the early Cleveland meeting was held. Mr. Borton was not a member of AA but the relative has not answered any of my attempts at contacting him. T.E. Borton IV lives in Atlanta, GA Lots of living relatives I have been trying to locate appear to be reluctant to answer any attempts at contact. It would be nice to find out how our founding members spent the rest of their lives. Irwin Meyerson, the Jewish Venetian Blind salesman from Cleveland and sponsored by Clarence Snyder and helped start AA in Atlanta, GA, West VA and had some influence in Indiana and orher places was living in Los Angeles, CA in 1964. His father Meyer died in 1964 in North Hollywood, CA. I'm trying to do a research piece on whatver happened to.... --- Glenn Chesnut wrote: > Here is Nancy Olson's short bio of Ray Campbell, > who designed the Big Book dust jackets we have > been discussing: > > http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm > > An Artist's Concept -- Ray Campbell > New York City > p. 380 in 1st edition > > Ray joined the fellowship in February 1938. > > He began his story by quoting Herbert Spencer: > "There is a principle which is a bar against > all information, which is proof against all > arguments and which can not fail to keep a man > in everlasting ignorance-that principle is > contempt prior to investigation." > > He said that the quotation is descriptive of > the mental attitudes of many alcoholics when > the subject of religion, as a cure, is first > brought to their attention. "It is only when > a man has tried everything else, when in utter > desperation and terrific need he turns to > something bigger than himself, that he gets > a glimpse of the way out. It is then that > contempt is replaced by hope, and hope by > fulfillment." > > Ray chose to write of his search for spiritual > help rather than "a description of the neurotic > drinking that made the search necessary." > > After investigating his alcoholic problem from > every angle, medicine, psychology, psychiatry, > and psychoanalysis, he began "flirting" with > religion as a possible way out. He had been > approaching God intellectually. That only > added to his desperation, but a seed had been > planted. > > Finally he met a man, probably Bill Wilson, > who had for five years "devoted a great deal > of time and energy to helping alcoholics." > The man told him little he didn't already know, > "but what he did have to say was bereft of all > fancy spiritual phraseology -- it was simple > Christianity imparted with Divine Power." > > The next day he met over twenty men who "had > achieved a mental rebirth from alcoholism." > > He liked them because the were ordinary men > who were not pious nor "holier than thous." > > He notes that these men were but instruments. > "Of themselves they were nothing." > > He must have been an intellectual type. He not > only quotes Spencer, but Thoreau: "Most men > lead lives of quiet desperation." > > It was Ray, a recognized artist, who was asked > to design the dust jacket for the 1st edition > of the Big Book. He submitted various designs > for consideration including one that was blue > and in an Art Deco style. The one chosen was > red, and yellow, with a little black, and a > little white. The words Alcoholics Anonymous > were printed across the top in large white > script. It became known as the circus jacket > because of its loud circus colors. The unused > blue jacket is today in the Archives at the > Stepping Stones Foundation. > > His story was not included in the Second > Edition of the Big Book but the Spencer quote > was placed in the back of the book in > Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience." > > > The most wonderful thing about losing my memory is that now I will always be able to discover new places, meet new people and make new friends... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5031. . . . . . . . . . . . Lois'' Picnic is June 7th ,not June 3rd From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2008 1:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Friends, The notice sent out by the group is incorrect- It is the Annual Steppingstones picnic in Bedford- It is always the first Saturday in June This year the date is June 7th http://www.steppingstones.org/house.html Gene in Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5032. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court From: David . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2008 6:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Your desire to draw a point of significant distinction between the concepts of religion and religious are explicitly rejected by the 7th Circuit Court in it's ruling: In the United States Court of Appeals For the Seventh Circuit No. 95-1843 JAMES W. KERR, Plaintiff-Appellant, v. CATHERINE J. FARREY and LLOYD LIND, Defendants-Appellees. Appeal from the United States District Court for the Western District of Wisconsin. No. 94-C-942--John C. Shabaz, Chief Judge. ARGUED JANUARY 12, 1996--DECIDED AUGUST 27, 1996 Before CUMMINGS, FLAUM, and DIANE P. WOOD, Circuit Judges. DIANE P. WOOD, Circuit Judge, in her explication of the Circuit ruling: The district court thought that the NA program escaped the "religious" label because the twelve steps used phrases like "God, as we understood Him," and because the warden indicated that the concept of God could include the non-religious idea of willpower within the individual. We are unable to agree with this interpretation. A straightforward reading of the twelve steps shows clearly that the steps are based on the monotheistic idea of a single God or Supreme Being. True, that God might be known as Allah to some, or YHWH to others, or the Holy Trinity to still others, but the twelve steps consistently refer to "God, as we understood Him." Even if we expanded the steps to include polytheistic ideals, or animistic philosophies, they are still fundamentally based on a religious concept of a Higher Power. Kerr alleged, furthermore, that the meetings were permeated with explicit religious content. This was therefore not a case (again, on the present record) where the only religious note was struck by the insertion of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, or other incidental references that the courts have upheld. See, e.g., Sherman v. Wheeling School District, 980 F.2d 437 (7th Cir. 1992). Because that is true, the program runs afoul of the prohibition against the state's favoring religion in general over non-religion. The Court of Appeals of New York has recently come to the same conclusion we reach today in Matter of David Griffin v. Coughlin, No. 73, 1996 WL 317180, 63 USLW 2003 (N.Y. App. Ct. June 11, 1996). In that case, the Court of Appeals held that the Establishment Clause does not permit the state to deprive an atheist or agnostic inmate of eligibility for an expanded family visitation program because of his refusal to participate in the sole alcohol and drug rehabilitation program at his state correctional facility--the same AA and NA programs at issue here. Two federal district courts have also decided similar cases. In Warner v. Orange County Dept. of Probation, 870 F. Supp. 69 (S.D.N.Y. 1994), the court decided that the Establishment Clause was violated when the only option available to a convicted motorist for required rehabilitation was the program run by AA. I'd have to say this topic and the question which raised it have a great deal to do with AA history. The influence of the courts, both mandating AA attendance and then not doing so, have profoundly affected AA groups- at least in the U.S. It brings up issues which go to the heart of our traditions, aspects like affiliation, the "lending" (volunteered or not) of our names and requirements for membership. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > > From Mitchell K. and Bill Middleton > > - - - - > > From "Mitchell K." > (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) > > It is interesting that this would even be called a > subject. It sounds like something quoted out of the > writing of Secret Agent Orange from the Orange-Papers > or some other AA bashing site. > > I would think right off the top of my head that no > suppreme court would ban all literature from any > publisher regardless whether or not that publisher > promoted religion. Secondly, despite what those folks > in AA Basher land would like to think, I do not recall > any court ruling that AA was a religion. Many courts > have ruled that AA was religious in nature and a > religious activity but again, I do not recall any > ruling stating that AA was a religion. > > I don't engage in a debate with AA bashers, especially > students of Secret Agent Orange. Orange has a great > Curriculum called "Propaganda and Debating Techniques" > on how to engage "steppers" in debate with some really > neat arguments. One will never win with these folks > (whatever win means) as their agenda is not to debate > or discuss but to frustrate. > > Upon review of the web site of the California Courts > ( http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/ ) I found nothing about > this what I believe is another urban legend. I also > reviewed the California Department of Education web > site and again, found nothing relating to this. > > Most governmental agencies, bowing to court rulings > stating that AA is a religious activity no longer > mandate attendance at meetings or mandating reading AA > literature. One such edict can be found at > http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm > - The New York State Office of Alcoholism and > Substance Abuse Services Local Services Bulletin > #2002-05 > > It goes into detail about "the providers who mandate > participation in A.A., is a violation of the principle > of separation of church and state." > > Simply put according to what I looked at on the net - > URBAN LEGEND > > - - - - > > From: William Middleton > (wmiddlet44 at yahoo.com) > > I "Googled" that sentence and it returned > this address.... > > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html > > That article said: > > "Kurtz, in Not-God: A History of Alcoholics > Anonymous, 1991, page 281, says that one large > treatment agency accounts for two thirds of > the outside sales of A.A.W.S. literature. > Without a doubt, that one treatment agency is > Hazelden. They so aggressively redistribute > A.A. literature that the California Supreme > Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature > removed from the California schools on the > grounds that Hazelden was promoting a > religion." > > May GOD Bless You! > Bill > > - - - - > > Original message from > (jax760 at yahoo.com) > > Does anybody have any information on this > subject? Thanks > > ....the California Supreme Court ordered all > Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the > California schools on the grounds that > Hazelden was promoting a religion. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5033. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question about the circle, triangle and other From: chief_roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2008 10:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous (Great Britain) Limited publishes much of its own literature. The hard cover Big Book is one of these items (other versions of the BB are purchased from AAWS and imported). Also some pamphlets it has borrowed and "anglecized" and others produced by and for the population they serve. T The "circle triangle" is used by the GSB GB (the body who publishes this literature. The circle triangel was not "banned", AAWS chose to drop it as a registered trademark for reasons probably detailed elsewhere on this site and others. The version used on GB literatures has the words unity, service, recovery around the outside of the triangle. I served as a conference delegate for the standadrd three years term in GB. during that time, I learned a great deal about AA literature in GB and its conference approval, development, and publication differ significantly from the process in US/Canada. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ginnymatthew" wrote: > > I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book > printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and > the title page have the AA circle and triangle > logo that I thought was 'banned' from being > used back in 1996. How is it that they are > able to use this logo? > > Also on the front page is a disclaimer which > states "No part of this publication may be > reproduced, stored in a retrievable system, > or transmitted in any form or by any means > without the prior permission of the publisher." > > U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer. > What is that about? > > Gratefully, > Ginny > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5034. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court From: Charles Grotts . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2008 12:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I did a Westlaw search in California reported and unreported cases from 1990-1999 and did not find the word "Hazelden." In California criminal sentencing law, AA is considered a sectarian group. Attendance at AA can still be made a condition of probation but only if the probationer has an option to attend a non-sectarian self-help group, and only if the probationer does not object to it. Cal. Code of Regulations, Title 9, Section 9860. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5035. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2008 3:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Raymond Campbell also misquoted Thoreau. The correct quote from Thoreau is, "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." The quote can be found in Walden, published 1854. John Lee Pittsburgh - - - - See Ray C.'s story, "An Artist's Concept," First Edition pp. 380-385, where he alters that line from Thoreau to say: "'Most men,' wrote Thoreau, 'lead lives of quiet desperation.' It was the articulation of this despair that led to my drinking in the beginning." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5036. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: California Supreme Court From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2008 8:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Circuit judge Diane Wood's ruling would be incontrovertible if AA members were required to practice the 12 Steps as a religious discipline; but as we know, the only require- ment for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking (or, as in my case, to stay stopped). There is no creedal imperative in the AA program. Complications arise when, for example, patients in a treatment centre are indeed required to practice some or all of the 12 Steps as part of that institution's regime. As Dave reminds us, this dissonance goes to the heart of our Traditions. Bill W. wrote: "As a society we must never become so vain as to suppose that we are authors of a new religion. We will humbly reflect that every one of AA's principles has been borrowed from ancient sources." (Alcoholics Anonmymous Comes of Age). - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) AA says it is not a religion and the written word of AA reinforces this thought, but some of the religious-minded within AA have presented AA as a God-based thing. What can the courts do but react to the vast majority of the members and their need to expound on their view of AA? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5037. . . . . . . . . . . . Anonymity statement From: Alan Spencer . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2008 11:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had the statement displayed: "Whom you see here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of our program." At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon calls their anonymity statement? Alan S., New Mexico - - - - From the moderator: Some of the AA meetings in my part of the US have a reading which is read at the beginning of meetings, called "The Tools of Recovery" See http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html It was put together by two of my sponsor's sponsors. The seventh tool is that anonymity statement. Some of the local folks say that this statement was first read by one of the people who put together the seven "tools of recovery" when he was attending an Al-Anon meeting (or in another version of the story an O.A. meeting). I have never checked that out though. Do any members of our group know more about this? We also need to remember that, as Bill W. himself once pointed out, everything in AA was originally borrowed from someone else. The "Think Think Think" signs came from IBM, the Serenity Prayer from a newspaper obituary, the Lord's Prayer at the end of meetings from the Oxford Group, and so on. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5038. . . . . . . . . . . . Anonymity Statement From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2008 6:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Alan, This card is indeed published by Al-Anon Family Groups. The official anonymity policy can be found in their Service Manual 2006 - 2009 on pages 83 and 84. The service manual is also available on the web site http://www.al-anon.org/members I copied the reference below my signature. The part in italics is often read at open Al-Anon meetings. Sincerely, Art Boudreault Anonymity The experience of our groups suggests that the principle of anonymity—summed up in Tradition Twelve as “the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions”—has three elements: There is anonymity as it applies outside Al-Anon, governing our contacts with nonmembers and organizations; anonymity within the fellowship; and anonymity as it contributes to our personal growth. Anonymity Outside Al-Anon Tradition Eleven gives a specific guideline: “we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, TV and films.” This gives potential members confidence that their identity will not be revealed when they join Al-Anon. Also, personal anonymity at the public level guards the fellowship from the Al-Anon/Alateen member who may be tempted to seek public recognition. When speaking or writing as an Al-Anon/Alateen member at the level of press, radio, TV or films, use only first names or pseudonyms. In photographs for publication and in TV appearances, faces should not be recognizable. This may be achieved by back-tocamera or blurring of features in some way. It is, however, important to make Al-Anon known through our public information work with professionals who come into contact with families still suffering from the effects of alcoholism. Such contacts, of course, make it necessary for the Al-Anon and Alateen members involved to give their full names. Al-Anon members also give their full names to interested doctors, spiritual leaders, school or industrial personnel. Anonymity Within Al-Anon Members use their full names within the fellowship when they wish. The degree of anonymity a member chooses (first name, pseudonym, or full name) is not subject to criticism. Each member has the right to decide. Regardless of our personal choice, we guard the anonymity of everyone else in the fellowship, Al-Anon/Alateen and A.A. This means not revealing to anyone—even to relatives, friends, and other members—whom we see and what we hear at a meeting. Anonymity goes well beyond mere names. All of us need to feel secure in the knowledge that nothing seen or heard at a meeting will be revealed. We feel free to express ourselves among our fellow Al-Anons because we can be sure that what we say will be held in confidence. 84 Al-Anon/Alateen Members’ Web site: Digest of Al-Anon and Alateen Policies At open Al-Anon meetings, group anniversaries, conventions, or workshops where nonmembers are present, Al-Anon and Alateen members are free to decide how much anonymity they prefer. It is well to open such meetings with a brief explanation of the Eleventh and Twelfth Traditions. One suggestion is as follows: There may be some who are not familiar with our Tradition of personal anonymity at the public level. If so, we respectfully ask that no Al-Anon, Alateen or A.A. speaker or member be identified by full name or picture in published or broadcast reports of our meeting. The assurance of anonymity is essential to our efforts to help other families of alcoholics, and our Tradition of anonymity reminds us to place Al-Anon and Alateen principles above personalities. At the service level (Group Representatives, District Representatives, World Service Conference members, etc.) it is practical to use full names and addresses to facilitate communication. Letters (including the return address) to an Al-Anon or Alateen member should never have the name Al-Anon or Alateen on the envelope. Letters to The Forum should give full names, addresses and phone numbers. Material that is published will be signed any way the writer wishes: first name and initial, initials only, “Anonymous”—either with or without geographical location. Area Newsletter Editors usually follow this procedure. Anonymity in Our Personal Growth Each member has the right of decision regarding personal anonymity within the fellowship. We share as equals, regardless of social, educational or financial position. Common sense in the use of anonymity provides freedom and the security each member is assured in Al-Anon. Our spiritual growth has its roots in the principle of anonymity. 2. Anonymity statement Posted by: "Alan Spencer" alan.nm46@yahoo.com alan.nm46 Date: Thu May 29, 2008 12:53 pm ((PDT)) Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had the statement displayed: "Whom you see here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of our program." At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon calls their anonymity statement? Alan S., New Mexico [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5039. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Anonymity statement From: Steven Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2008 4:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've seen in documentaries about the Manhattan Project the slogan "Whom you see here. What you see here. When you leave here let it stay here" posted in the factories. I think it did may have originated from there. Blessings, Steven L. - - - - From the moderator: The Manhattan Project (1941-1946) was the top secret World War II project in which the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom worked together to produce the first atomic bomb. Research took place at over thirty sites in the United States, Canada, and United Kingdom. If this was a Manhattan Project slogan, it seems likely that it was they who invented it, and our Al-Anon sisters and brothers who then later on "went nuclear" by adapting the slogan for their use. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5040. . . . . . . . . . . . Revising my beginners AA history book page From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2008 9:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am revising my beginners AA history book page. http://www.aabibliography.com/beginnersbooks.htm Suggestions and input are needed. I certainly need to add Glenn'ss books. Any other suggestions? I am trying to keep this to one 8-1/2 by 11 inch page to make it easily printable. Email me personally at (eztone at hotmail dot com) I would increase this list to two pages, if the group thought there were that many books that need to be added. LD Pierce editor aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5041. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob Corwin passing (was: Sybil C. & Tex) From: Alex H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2008 12:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just received word that Bob Corwin (Sybil Corwin's husband) died Saturday 24 May 2008 at the age of 86. According to Matt M. Bob had a stroke last year and had an assisted-living housekeeper since then. Bob suffered from a second stroke on Friday, was taken to the hospital and died the next day. His son was at his bedside. Bob C. came into AA in 1948 (Sybil had come into AA in 1941) and after several relapses, Bob maintained continuous sobriety for 44 years until his death. It has been Matt M's habit to call Bob C. once a week but this time, Bob's son called Matt. Alex H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5042. . . . . . . . . . . . Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement From: Pat Jehn, RN C, LNC . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 2:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mates: I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen" is encouraged. We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that some people want to put include ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting schedules. I understand that Tradition 6 should be sufficient to cover this matter, but the exact wording of the "cooperation with other activities" statement would help. Thanks for your assistance. Pat Jehn, RN,C Legal Nurse Consultant MEDICAL-LEGAL CONSULTING, LLC 399 S. 12th St. DeFuniak Springs, Fl 32435 PatJehn@Embarqmail.Com (PatJehn at Embarqmail.Com) 850-951-9899 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5043. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant June Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 5:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII June 1: 1949 - Anne Smith, Dr. Bob's wife, died. June 4: 2002- Caroline Knapp, author of "Drinking: A Love Story" died sober of lung cancer. June 5: 1940 - Ebby Thatcher took a job at the NY Worlds Fair. June 6: 1940 - The first AA Group in Richmond, VA, was formed. 1979 - AA gave the two-millionth copy of the Big Book to Joseph Califano, then Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare. It was presented by Lois Wilson, Bill's wife, in New York. June 7: 1939 - Bill and Lois Wilson had an argument, the first of two times Bill almost slipped. 1941 - The first AA Group in St. Paul, Minnesota, was formed. June 8: 1941 - Three AA's started a group in Kalamazoo, Michigan. June 10: 1935 - The date that is celebrated as Dr. Bob's last drink and the official founding date of AA. There is some evidence that the founders, in trying to reconstruct the history, got the date wrong and it was actually June 17. June 11: 1945 - Twenty-five hundred attend AA's 10th Anniversary in Cleveland, Ohio. 1969 - Dr. Bob's granddaughter, Bonna, daughter of Sue Smith and Ernie Galbraith (The Seven Month Slip in the First Edition) killed herself after first killing her six-year-old child. 1971 - Ernie Galbraith died. June 13: 1945 - Morgan R. gave a radio appearance for AA with large audience. He was kept under surveillance to make sure he didn't drink. June 15: 1940 - First AA Group in Baltimore, MD, was formed. June 16: 1938 - Jim Burwell, "The Vicious Cycle" in Big Book, had his last drink. June 17: 1942 - New York AA groups sponsored the first annual NY area meeting. Four hundred and twenty-four heard Dr. Silkworth and AA speakers. June 18: 1940 - One hundred attended the first meeting in the first AA clubhouse at 334-1/2 West 24th St., New York City. June 19: 1942 - Columnist Earl Wilson reported that NYC Police Chief Valentine sent six policemen to AA and they sobered up. "There are fewer suicides in my files," he commented. June 21: 1944 - The first Issue of the AA Grapevine was published. June 24: 1938 - Two Rockefeller associates told the press about the Big Book "Not to bear any author's name but to be by 'Alcoholics Anonymous.'" June 25: 1939 - The New York Times reviewer wrote that the Big Book is "more soundly based psychologically than any other treatment I have ever come upon." June 26: 1935 - Bill Dotson. (AA #3) entered Akron's City Hospital for his last detox and his first day of sobriety. June 28: 1935 - Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson visited Bill Dotson at Akron's City Hospital. June 30: 1941 - Ruth Hock showed Bill Wilson the Serenity Prayer and it was adopted readily by AA. 2000 - More than 47,000 from 87 countries attended the opening meeting of the 65th AA Anniversary in Minneapolis, MN. Other significant events in June for which we have no specific date: 1948 - A subscription to the AA Grapevine was donated to the Beloit, Wisconsin, Public Library by a local AA member. 1981 - AA in Switzerland held its 25th Anniversary Convention with Lois Wilson and Nell Wing in attendance. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5044. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant June Dates in A.A. History From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2008 1:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Morgan R.'s radio appearance on Gabriel Heatter's NBC program was in 1939, not in 1945. Previous postings, including one from NBC licensing, indicate that the actual date of the program was April 25, 1939, shortly after the publication of the Big Book. Morgan was sequestered in the Downtown Athletic Club to ensure a sober appearance on the 1939 radio show. I believe Morgan was the guy who ran a multilith copy of the Big Book past the New York Catholic Publications Office for its comments. His crisp appearance at the 1940 Rockefeller dinner at the Union Club is also noted in the Conference literature. John Lee Pittsburgh - - - - Message 5043 from (chesbayman56 at yahoo.com) said: June 13: 1945 - Morgan R. gave a radio appearance for AA with large audience. He was kept under surveillance to make sure he didn't drink. - - - - From the moderator: Hmmm. Could this have been an error that crept into this year's date list? or has there been reason to change the dating? The date given up to this point has been in the April section of the date list, as in for example Messages 4941 (in 2008), 4206 (in 2007), and so on: "April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show." See also: - - - - Message 4020: We The People Radio program 1939 From: (leeannplatner at yahoo.com) We are searching for an episode of WE THE PEOPLE radio program from April 1939 featuring Gabrielle Heatter with guest, Morgan R and his discussion of AA. We produced the program, and have a transcript, but we do not have a copy of the audio recording and the holdings we donated to the Library of Congress do not include this episode. We would love to borrow and/or pay to have a dub made if any member has an actual copy of this recording. - - - - Message 589: People in AA History - pt 4 From: (tcumming at airmail.net) Morgan R. - Irish Catholic, ex-ad man; came A.A. early January 1939; had friend on Catholic Committee Publications New York Archdiocese, delivered mimeograph copy Big Book to committee, they approved; spoke popular radio program 'We The People ' April 1939 shortly after release Greystone institution; attended John D. Rockefeller 's A.A. dinner Feb 1940; Wilson's stayed his apartment about 2 months (A 168-169,174-175,183) (B 286,295) (H 62) (L 115,127) (N 47,75,90, 93) (P 201,207,208, 209,215,221,232-233) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5045. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 4:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Fellowships of Alcoholics Anonymous and the Al-Anon Family Groups have a unique relationship. They are naturally drawn together by their close ties. And yet the Twelve Traditions, the General Service Boards, and the General Service Conferences of both Fellowships suggest that each functions more effectively if it remains "separate," cooperating but not affiliating with the other. Each Fellowship has always had its own General Service Board, General Service Office, Conference, publishing company, and directory. Each has established its own policies and maintained its own services. This separate functioning has served both A.A. and Al-Anon Family Groups well. A.A.'s policy of "cooperation but not affiliation" was established as long ago as the early 1950s, and both Al-Anon and A.A. recognized at that time the importance of maintaining separate Fellowships. However, from time to time, questions come to both A.A. and Al-Anon General Service Offices indicating confusion as to how A.A. and Al-Anon may best cooperate in the groups, intergroups or central offices, and area and regional conventions and get togethers. A.A. and Al-Anon have shared on these questions, and A.A.'s General Service Conference approved the following suggested guidelines: Question: Should a group be affiliated with both A.A. and Al-Anon? Answer: As the primary purpose of the A.A. group is to help the sick alcoholic to recover and the primary purpose of the Al-Anon Family Group is to help the Al-Anon to live with herself or himself, as well as with the alcoholic, it is suggested they not be combined, but remain separate groups. This enables both Fellowships to function within their Twelve Traditions and to carry their messages more effectively. Thus, the group name, the officers, and the meeting should be either A.A. or Al-Anon, but not both. "The A.A. Group" pamphlet suggests, "Whether open or closed, A.A. group meetings are conducted by A.A. members, who determine the format of their meetings." At open meetings, non-A.A.s may be invited to share, depending upon the conscience of the group. Naturally, all are welcome to open meetings of both A.A. and Al-Anon groups. Question: Should "family groups" be listed in A.A. directories? Answer: "After discussion, the Conference reaffirmed A.A. group policy that only those with a desire to stop drinking may be members of A.A. groups; only A.A. members are eligible to be officers of A.A. groups; nonalcoholics are welcome at open meetings of A.A. It is suggested that the word 'family' not be used in the name of an A.A. group; if A.A.s and their nonalcoholic mates wish to meet together on a regular basis, it is suggested they consider these gatherings 'meetings' and not A.A. groups. Listing in A.A. directories: It was the sense of the meeting that the family groups should not be listed under the family group name in the directories. Question: Should A.A. and Al-Anon have combined central (or intergroup) services and offices? Answer: Experience and the Twelve Traditions of A.A. and Al-Anon suggest that each Fellowship will function more effectively if each retains separate committees, staffs, and facilities for handling telephone calls, as well as separate telephone answering services, inter- group activities. bulletins, meeting lists, and Twelfth Step services of all types. Also, that the members involved in each service committee or office be A.A. members, if an A.A. facility, and Al-Anon, if an Al-Anon facility. Question: How may A.A. and Al-Anon cooperate in area and regional conventions and get-togethers? Answer: In accordance with the Twelve Traditions, a convention would be either A.A. or Al-Anon -- not both. However, most A.A. convention committees invite Al-Anon to participate by planning its own program, and the committee arranges for facilities for the Al-Anon meetings. Question: When Al-Anon participates in an A.A. convention, what is the financial relationship between the two Fellowships? Answer: The relationship and the financial arrangements usually follow one of two patterns: When an A.A. convention committee invites Al-Anon to participate with its own program, A.A. may pay all expenses (for meeting rooms, coffee, etc.) and keep all income from registrations, etc., in a single fund used to pay all convention bills, after which any excess income reverts back to A.A. Alternatively, Al-Anon may have a separate registration and pay its own direct expenses, plus a proportionate share of common expenses of the convention. Al-Anon, in this case, receives its own share of the registration income and also shares in any losses that may be incurred. A.A.®Guidelines from G.S.O., Box 459, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10163 A.A. Guidelines are compiled from the shared experience of A.A. members in the various areas. They also reflect guidance given through the Twelve Traditions and the General Service Conference (U.S. and Canada). In keeping with our Tradition of Autonomy, except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole, most decisions are made by the group conscience of the members involved. The purpose of these Guidelines is to assist in reaching an informed group conscience. Relationship Between A.A. and Al-Anon Question: Should an A.A. convention committee make a contribution to Al-Anon from the financial profits of the convention? Answer: In accordance with the self-support Traditions of both Fellowships and to abide by the concept of "cooperation but not affili- ation," it is suggested that A.A. should not make gifts or contributions to Al-Anon. By the same token, A.A. should not accept contributions from Al-Anon. If separate registrations have been kept for both A.A. and Al-Anon members, however, income may be easily assigned. Question: How may I get in touch with Al-Anon? Answer: Check your phone book for local intergroup office, or write: Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group, Inc., 1600 Corporate Landing Parkway, Virginia Beach, VA 23454-5617. Tel: 800/356/9996; www.al-anon.alateen.org. A.A.'s Debt of Gratitude to Al-Anon The following resolution of gratitude to the Fellowship of the Al-Anon Family Groups was unanimously approved by the 1969 General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous. The delegates of this, the 19th General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous, meeting in official session in New York City, this 25th day of April, 1969, do hereby declare: WHEREAS, it is the desire of this Conference to confirm the relationship between Alcoholics Anonymous and the Al-Anon Family Groups, and WHEREAS, it is the further desire of this Conference to acknowledge A.A.'s debt of gratitude to the Al-Anon Family Groups, therefore, BE IT RESOLVED, that Alcoholics Anonymous recognizes the special relationship which it enjoys with the Al-Anon Family Groups, a separate but similar fellowship. And be it further resolved that Alcoholics Anonymous wishes to recognize, and hereby does recognize, the great contribution which the Al-Anon Family Groups have made and are making in assisting the families of alcoholics everywhere. God bless Dave J. > > Mates: > > I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature > the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and > Alateen" is encouraged. > > We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that > some people want to put include ACA (Adult > Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting > schedules. > > I understand that Tradition 6 should be > sufficient to cover this matter, but the > exact wording of the "cooperation with other > activities" statement would help. > > Thanks for your assistance. > > Pat Jehn, RN,C > Legal Nurse Consultant > MEDICAL-LEGAL CONSULTING, LLC > 399 S. 12th St. > DeFuniak Springs, Fl 32435 > > PatJehn@Embarqmail.Com > (PatJehn at Embarqmail.Com) > > 850-951-9899 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5046. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2008 8:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It does not contain the phrase which you quote, but there is a AA Guideline - 'Relationship Between A.A. and Al-Anon' which addresses. It states 'And yet the Twelve Traditions, the General Service Boards, and the General Service Conferences of both Fellowships suggest that each functions more effectively if it remains “separate,” cooperating but not affiliating with the other.' This guideline can be located at: http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/mg-08_relationshipbet.pdf Jim - - - - Pat Jehn, RN C, LNC wrote: > Mates: > > I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature > the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and > Alateen" is encouraged. > > We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that > some people want to put include ACA (Adult > Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting > schedules. - - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) Is a "meeting" schedule considered to be something published by AA? If not, the traditions do not apply to it. For example, almost every website for the local intergroup offices list AA meetings and LINKS to other 12-step Fellowships webpages for their meeting lists. Many areas, especially those smaller areas, where daily meetings are scarce, publish their lists which include all known 12-step fellowship meetings. As I understand it . . . Schedules are the act of a group of AA's, who do not represent AA as such, IMO. If, for example AA, Al-anon and NA or any other 12-step fellowship wish to combine their efforts to publish a general schedule, it would seem prudent to do so, and it would be a simple matter (less expensive, but more difficult to coordinate), to identify each meeting under whatever 12-step Fellowship it falls. I see no reason (legally or otherwise) not to cooperate in this matter, except perhaps an ego-territorial problem that some people seem to have (resentment). After all, every one of the 12th steps is about carrying the message of recovery. It's not about making sure we keep separate from others or withholding information that could be and generally is, very helpful. Why oh why must we continue to act this way, like we (AA) have all the answers and can't stand to share important information, make it easily accessible to others, that could possibly save their lives? I believe that it's important to follow the traditions, but so often we push them far beyond the limits of their intention, into the bizarre and useless. Both AA and Al-anon have "blurbs" in their literature about "spirit of cooperation" -- as they do about treatment centers and hospitals. I think most of the 12-step fellowships remind us of this important spiritual attitude. Hugs for the trudge. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5047. . . . . . . . . . . . Meeting formats From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2008 4:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi group Yesterday I was at a convent here in Denmark and the subject meeting formats came up. As I understand it the first meetings were speaker meetings, is that correct? Do you have any idea when and how the different meeting formats developed? Kind regards from sunny Denmark Bent IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5048. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement From: John Hettish . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2008 11:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello folks, I have a copy of the Al-anon version of the cooperation statement if anyone would like to see it. I'm sure Al-anon's World Service Office would also make it available if asked. John Hettish jhettish@united.net (jhettish at united.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5049. . . . . . . . . . . . Early four step AA program ??? From: rajiv.behappy . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2008 8:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII After reading Hank Parkhurst's proposed outline for the Big book, it seems clear to me that the original program had four steps in 1938 and not the 6 Steps that Bill W wrote about as the original AA's word-of-mouth steps in the July 1953 Grapevine article (and in AA Comes of Age). Do any of you know what the original four steps were? Much Love Rajiv Bhole - - - - Message #2567: HANK P.'s FOUR STEP RENDITION From: (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) "In my mind religious experience - religion - etc. should not be brought in. We are actually irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful - we have learned to be quiet - to be more truthful - to be more honest - to try to be more unselfish - to make other fellows troubles - our troubles - and by following four steps most of us have a religious experience. The fellowship - the unselfishness appeals to us." - - - - From the moderator, Glenn C.: Rajiv, you needed to keep on reading in that document,where Hank went on to say further along: "I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing religious experience when actually that is something that follows as a result of 1 - 2 - 3 - 4. "In my mind the question is not particularly the strength of the experience as much as the improvement over what we were. I would ask a man to compare himself as follows after say a month – "#1 - As compared to 2 months ago do you have more of a feeling that there is a power greater than you [?] "#2 - Have you cleaned out more completely with a human being than ever before? "#3 - Have you less bad things behind you than ever before [?] "#4 - Have you been more honest with youself and your fellow man - Have you been more honest with yourself and your fellow man - Have you been more thoughtful of people with whom you are associated - Has your life been cleaner both by thought & action - Have you looked at others less critically and yourself more critically this last 30 days. You will never be perfect but the question is have you been more perfect?" - - - - These were not "four steps" that you took, in the same sense as the twelve steps of the twelve step program in the Big Book. - - - - There is also a mention of "four steps" in Message #2788 from (tcumming at nc.rr.com), where it says: From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369: "There are, it seems to me, four steps to be taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism. First: Have a real desire to quit. Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.) Third: Ask for His ever present help. Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help." [That mans story is also on pg 193 of 2nd & 3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4 Steps.] - - - - That was intended for people at the very beginning, when they first came into Alcoholics Anonymous. There were other things that people had to do after that (confession, restitution, regular prayer and quiet time, and so on) which were recognized as necessities in AA from the beginning (and went back to Oxford Group practice). So it seems to me that it would be very misleading to say that "the original program had four steps in 1938." Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5050. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement and Al-Anon''s table card From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2008 9:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear AA History Lovers, Posted by: " Date: Thu May 29, 2008 12:53 pm ((PDT)) Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had the statement displayed: "Whom you see here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of our program." At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon calls their anonymity statement? Alan S., New Mexico - - - - I have continued to ask for dates and sources. I asked 300 former and current Al-Anon delegates and the Al-Anon World Service Office (WSO) for the history of the table card. The saying appears to have originated in Al- Anon in Britain and was brought to the attention of the US WSO in 1973. The WSO found no references to the Manhattan Project in their archives for any reason. As you may know, the entire archive of Al-Anon has been placed into a huge database from which they may find anything in print that originated or passed through their office. It is interesting how quickly the word "who" was changed to "whom". Below my signature is a copy of the statement I received from the WSO and two long timers. Sincerely, Art Boudreault - - - - From Al-Anon World Service Archives: According to existing research, the table card appears to have originated at Al-Anon meetings in Britain, and was then produced by the WSO in 1973. In the August 1973 issue of The Forum, on page 4, in an article titled, “A Delegate Re-Lives World Service Conference,” Margaret H., Delegate at the 1973 World Service Conference from South Carolina, wrote: “The tent-fold card propped up during Al-Anon meetings in Britain, bearing the words: “Who you see here, what you hear here, let it stay here.” So that all groups may profit from the British Al-Anon reminder the WSO has also produced these to sell for the 10¢ each, or $1.00 a dozen; lest our members be tempted to call our attention to the word “Who” as ungrammatical, we hasten to explain in advance that this was done on purpose to make it colloquial and familiar.” The word “who“ was replaced by “whom” sometime between the 1978 printing and the 1981 printing, and remains this way today. We found no mention of the Manhattan Project in the Al-Anon Archives. If you find out anything more, I’d be interested to know. From Irma ( member of Al-Anon since 1964): When this placard first came out it said: "Who you see here......." As I recall Blanche, a school teacher and past delegate, wrote to the WSO to say this is bad language. She told them it should read "Whom you see here.." So it was changed. We talked about this at my homegroup one night...why it was changed. While we were discussing it, a small voice said: "Whom cares?' From Suzie C "My late husband worked for the Atomic Energy Commission, while the A-bomb was in its conception and early testing stages in several very secure locations. Though he did not join AA until later in his life (+/-10 years after I joined Al-Anon). I know that, surreptitiously at first, then openly after he joined AA, he read every piece of my (propaganda!) Al-Anon literature. Later he embraced the AA program himself. I am pretty sure he would have told me if he recognized the anonymity statement from any of his connections with the AEC, which went on throughout his life. sc28 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5051. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2008 3:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did Al-Anon go nuclear? Well, the Al-Anon anonymity statement (as used also by many AA groups, see for example http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html ) reads: "Whom you see here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of our program." The Manhattan Project sign (posted at more than one of the secret World War II sites involved in the building and dropping of the first nuclear bombs) was identical except that it had "what" instead of "whom," and three monkeys (one with his hands over his eyes, one with his hands over his ears, and one with his hands over his mouth). Even if the Al-Anon organization in the U.S. says that they got it from the Al-Anon organisation in Britain, the overall Manhattan Project involved the U.S., Britain, and Canada all three. British scientists (and research facilities) were very much part of the team that built the bomb. So saying that the statement came originally from Britain does not mean that it could not have had any link to the Manhattan Project. See the photo, for example, at the bottom of the web page given below, where a prominent road sign along an English highway says: "Brentwood Kelvedon Hatch A 128 Industrial Estates Secret Nuclear Bunker" This is from http://www.patheticphotos.com/pathetic-things.htm http://www.patheticphotos.com/Pathetic-Things/secret-nuclear-bunker.htm We've already got the camel as an AA symbol and the mythical bird called the phoenix (rising in flight from the flames of rebirth). But three monkeys as AA symbol? Hmmm. I have been told that a long automobile ride with Frank N., Floyd P., Big Al M., and me all in the same vehicle reminded some people of a trip with the Three Stooges. But anyway, here are some references, the first one from the excellent website maintained by the Tennessee State AA Archives. They say that the Three Monkeys sign was displayed at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, a major Manhattan Project site, and show us an actual picture of what it looked like: http://area64tnarchives.org/whatyouseehere.html <> http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isadg/viewseries.pl?seriesid=4110 <> http://www.wendoverairbase.com/HWA%20Sixty%20Years%20-%20LVRJ.doc <> http://www.mphpa.org/classic/VET_STORIES/MO/CG/Pages/Metro-P.htm <> http://books.google.com/books?id=6-jWpCYBTR0C&pg=PA269&lpg=PA269&dq=%22when+ you+\ leave+here+let+it+stay+here22+Manhattan+Project&source=web&ots=W-XQWIytdv&si g=zF\ nqFv2joIPddBGcwRVcTXJpvqI&hl=en [16] <<... WHEN YOU LEAVE HERE LET IT STAY HERE "That's the original," Miss Marx explained to me, as if it were a Picasso. "The original from -- " "From the Manhattan Project. It used to hang over the gates at Los Alamos. It's sort of the unofficial motto of the Skytale Club. It's part of why our members can feel relaxed here.">> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5052. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement and the Oak Ridge nuclear facility From: Steven Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2008 3:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here's a link to the source of the saying, on the Tennessee state AA archives site: http://area64tnarchives.org/whatyouseehere.html It originated from the Oak Ridge Facility, from signs used during the Second World War. Almost every history page on the internet for the Oak Ridge facility makes mention of the monkeys and the saying. Blessings, Steven L. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5053. . . . . . . . . . . . Text of the Gabriel Heatter broadcast From: diane unger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/3/2008 8:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gabriel Heatter, the nationally recognized radio broadcaster, provided the forum for the first national exposure received by Alcoholics Anonymous, April 25, 1939. Heatter's nightly "We The People" radio broadcast was a tremend- ously popular program listened to by millions of people nationwide. Heatter was known for his trademark line, "Ah, there's good news tonight!" Little did he know how good that news was to become to suffering alcoholics worldwide. Morgan R., the AA member who spoke on the program, was a former ad man. The broadcast was expected to launch sales of the newly published book, Alcoholics Anonymous. The story of Morgan's three day "captivity" to prevent him from drinking before the broadcast, and the resulting two Big Book sales are described in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age on pages 174-175. "WE THE PEOPLE" HEATTER: The man beside me now has had one of the most gripping and dramatic experiences I've ever heard. I'm not going to tell you his name. And when you hear what he has to say I think you'll understand why. But after checking the facts the Listeners Committee of "We The People" decided to grant him time because they feel that if one person is helped by hearing his story, then WE THE PEOPLE will have done a real service. Alright, sir. ANONYMOUS GUEST: Six months ago I got out of an insane asylum. I'd been sent there because I was drinking myself to death. But the doctors said they could do nothing for me. And only four years ago I was making 20,000 dollars a year. I was married to a swell girl and had a young son. But I worked hard and like lots of my friends - I used to drink to relax. Only they knew when to stop. I didn't. And pretty soon - I drank myself out of my job. I promised my wife I'd straighten out. But I couldn't. Finally she took the baby and left me. The next year was like a nightmare. I was penniless. I went out on the streets - panhandled money for liquor. Every time I sobered up - I swore not to touch another drop. But if I went a few hours without a drink - I'd begin to cry like a baby, and tremble all over. One day after I left the asylum I met a friend of mine. He took me to the home of one of his friends. A bunch of men were sitting around, smoking cigars, telling jokes - having a great time. But I noticed they weren't drinking. When Tom told me they'd all been in the same boat as I was - I couldn't believe him. But he said, "See that fellow? He's a doctor. Drank himself out of his practice. Then he straightened out. Now he's head of a big hospital." Another big strapping fellow was a grocery clerk. Another the vice president of a big corporation. They got together five years ago. Called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous. And they'd worked out a method of recovery. One of their most important secrets was - helping the other fellow. Once they began to follow it the method proved successful and helped others get on their feet - they found they could stay away from liquor. Gradually - those men helped me back to life. I stopped drinking. Found courage to face life once again. Today I've got a job - and I'm going to climb back to success. Recently we wrote a book called "Alcoholics Anonymous". It tells precisely how we all came back from a living death. Working on that book made me realize how much other people had suffered - how they'd gone through the same thing I did. That's why I wanted to come on this program. I wanted to tell people who are going through that torment - if they sincerely want to, they can come back. Take their place in society once again! (APPLAUSE) (MUSIC) This broadcast was made at a time when A.A. and the Big Book effort was $10,000 in debt, with only $500 left in the bank... Morgan Ryan, the good-looking Irishman who had taken the book to the Catholic Committee on Publication, had been a good ad man. He said that he knew Gabriel Heatter. "Gabriel is putting on these 3 minute heart-to-heart programs on the radio. I'll get an interview with him and maybe he'll interview me on the radio about all this." And the REST OF THE STORY is history in "AA History And How The Big Book Was Put Together" - A Talk By Bill Wilson - Fort Worth, Texas - 1954 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5054. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early four step AA program ??? From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2008 7:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > > There is also a mention of "four steps" in > Message #2788 from > (tcumming at nc.rr.com), where it says: > > From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book > story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369: > > "There are, it seems to me, four steps to be > taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism. > First: Have a real desire to quit. > Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.) > Third: Ask for His ever present help. > Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help." > > [That mans story is also on pg 193 of 2nd & > 3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to > He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4 > Steps.] > These are quite close to the 5 C's of the Oxford Group, so it would make sense that they might have been used by the "alcohol squad." Keep in mind that the 5 C's were steps suggested for the life-changer to follow, the person who is trying to lead someone else to become a "changed" person. "Changed" roughly correlates with AA's "sobriety," and except for the fact that the alcoholic version was directed to the alcoholic himself, the correlation is pretty good. Here they are. I'll stick with the male pronoun, it's easier and closer to the original: The first C was "Confidence," developing the person's trust in the life-changer. This of course would not apply if the steps were expressed as something done directly by the person who needed to change. The second was "Confession," not to be confused with the more elaborate confession of a practicing grouper. In the context of the 5 C's, confession meant getting the person to admit that there was something he felt bad about. In practice, this could be something major but often was something minor--anything would do. The third, "Conviction" (of sin), meant bringing the person to the realization that what he felt bad about was truly in the nature of sin, not just a bad habit but a spiritual problem. The fourth, "Conversion," was the actual surrender and acceptance of God's help. The fifth C, "Continuance." involved guidance, prayer, group and individual confession, etc. as practiced by the OG. The steps listed by the author of The Car Smasher follow the pattern of the five C's, without the "Confidence" step: 1) Admission of a problem, 2) Acceptance that it is not under one's control, 3) Surrender, 4) Followup. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5055. . . . . . . . . . . . Which 1st ed. Big Book stories were ghostwritten? From: Edie Stanger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/8/2008 12:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just read in the justloveaudio.com transcription: "Meanwhile, we set drunks up to write their stories or we had newspaper people to write the stories for them to go in the back of the book." Does anyone know which stories were ghost- written? Has there been a previous thread on the subject? Edie S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5056. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2008 3:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The words "Who you see here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here" are printed on a yellow card issued by the UK General Service office in York. The card appears on tables at AA grops all over the UK, and when winding up meetings secretaries often say, "Please remember the Yellow Card (reciting the words). Let's make this a safe place to share." Travers C., Bristol AA old-timer, thought the message was somewhat sanctimonious. I recall him saying, "If we mean, 'Don't gossip,' why not say so." - - - - From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) It's not a far stretch . . . using monkeys . . . Alcohol made monkeys out of most of us. And when we got sober, we "got the monkey off our backs" . . . - - - - From: "Bob McK." (bobnotgod2 at att.net) Interestingly, the three monkeys ("hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil") date back to Japan in the 1600s and possibly before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wise_monkeys [The three monkeys are Mizaru, covering his eyes, who sees no evil; Kikazaru, covering his ears, who hears no evil; and Iwazaru, covering his mouth, who speaks no evil.] - - - - From: charles Knapp (cdknapp at pacbell.net) Hello again, Yes here is another site that mentions the slogan. It is about half way in the article. http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Aug-06-Sat-2005/news/26902506.ht ml The History Channel did a special on Oak Ridge and I saved a video clip from the show about this slogan. I will see if I can find it in one of my computers and post it online. If I do I will post a link in History Lovers. Charles from California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5057. . . . . . . . . . . . fabric of AA Big Books From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2008 10:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does any one know the composition or type of fabrics used in the 4 editions of the Big Book? Shakey Mike Gwirtz Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5058. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4 times? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2008 11:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It seems as though there is some confusion based on my study of the literature and other biographies of Bill. Can someone answer definitively how many times and when was Bill hospitalized at Towns? Was it three times or four times? Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5059. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement From: PR_Magoo . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2008 12:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I found an Oak Ridge web site that had a picture of an old billboard sign from the early 1940's that gave the early atomic research facility version of what later became the AA and Al-Anon slogan, with a picture of the three monkeys on it: What you see here, What you do here, What you hear here, When you leave here, Let it stay here. http://oakridgevisitor.com/history/SecretTown-security.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5060. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2008 1:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Had a wonderful visit at Stepping Stones last Friday and made part of the picnic on Saturday. It's a tremendously moving place to visit. There was a wonderful prayer typed out and lying on the bed in the upstairs bedroom. It was said to be a prayer Bill used in the mornings. I didn't transcribe it because I figured I could find it. But either I'm not looking at the right things, or it's not readily available. Does anyone have this prayer or can you point to where it may be? And what source suggests it was his morning prayer? Thanks. George Cleveland - - - - From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend): The following prayer appears at http://hindsfoot.org/funeral1.html Was this the one you were looking for? It comes from Pass It On, page 265. BILL & LOIS'S PRAYER Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that we are from everlasting to everlasting. Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions to us of light, of love, and of service. May we find and do Thy will in good strength, in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present grace be discovered by family and friends -- those here and those beyond -- by our Societies throughout the world, by men and women everywhere, and among those who must lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou art everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us a destiny passing through Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of Thee and in no separation between ourselves. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5061. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4 times? From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2008 11:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I had gone back and forth on this issue also. Pass It On indicates four admissions: p. 100 "In the autumn of 1933, when Bill found himself in Towns Hospital for the first time." p. 106 "Bill wound up in Towns for a second time." p. 108 "By midsummer 1934, he was back in Towns." p. 119 - 120 These pages describe Bill's return to Towns Hospital on December 11, 1934. I don't have Robert Thomsen's book in front of me, but I have a notation to myself to see page 174. I think what finally swayed me is listening to Bill's talk on the day that Dr. Bob died (11/16/1950). 4 minutes and 45 seconds into the recording Bill states "This was my fourth visit, third time this year." However, I think he misspeaks here because he is talking his admission where Dr. Silkworth suggested to Lois that he commit Bill to the Rockland State Hospital. But the fact that he says "fourth visit" leads me to believe that his how many admissions he had. Also see previous posts: #3330 and #4224 I'm sure other people have studied this and could share input as well. Chris IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5062. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones From: Russ Stewart . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2008 11:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Pass It On" pages 264 & 265 <> "Pass It On," page 274 note 2: <> - - - - Original message no. 5060 was from George Cleveland (pauguspass at yahoo.com) Had a wonderful visit at Stepping Stones last Friday .... There was a wonderful prayer typed out and lying on the bed in the upstairs bedroom. It was said to be a prayer Bill used in the mornings .... what source suggests it was his morning prayer? - - - - ANY ECHOES HERE OF SWEDENBORGIAN LITURGY? From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Has this prayer anything to do with Swedenborgianism? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5063. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2008 12:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While this is a fabulous prayer, it's not as I recall. What stood out about the prayer I saw at Stepping Stones was the term "Father of Lights". Which is not to say that a word or two may have changed. The tone is very similar. I've written to Stepping Stones and asked them if there is a copy. THANK YOU, as always. George - - - - Message #5060 The prayer given in Pass It On, page 265: BILL & LOIS'S PRAYER Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that we are from everlasting to everlasting. Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions to us of light, of love, and of service. May we find and do Thy will in good strength, in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present grace be discovered by family and friends -- those here and those beyond -- by our Societies throughout the world, by men and women everywhere, and among those who must lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou art everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us a destiny passing through Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of Thee and in no separation between ourselves. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5064. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Anonymity statement From: Hugh M . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/14/2008 2:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A few months ago, the local R.C.M.P. entered the Hells Angels clubhouse in Nanaimo, British Columbia with a search warrant. In a report, the police told of finding a sign bearing that slogan in one of the rooms. It is obvious that we have no corner on the concept. Unless some Al-Anon group might have been meeting in the biker facility :-) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5065. . . . . . . . . . . . Sources that help put the Big Book together From: juan.aa98 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2008 7:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Allen, James - As A Man Thinketh Baylor, Courtenay - Remaking a Man Begbie, Harold - Twice-Born Men, 1909 Begbie, Harold - Souls in Action, 1911 Begbie, Harold - The Ordinary Man, 1915 Bible: The Sermon on the Mount The Lord's Prayer The Book of James The 13th Chapter of First Corinthians Browne, Lewis - This Believing World Browne, Lewis - The Conversion Experience Chambers, O. - My Utmost For His Highest Clark, Glenn - Will Lift Up Mine Eyes Drummond, Henry - The Greatest Thing in the World Fox, Emmet - The Sermon on the Mount Freud, Sigmund - A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis James, William - The Varieties of Religious Experience Kitchen, V.C. - I Was a Pagan Peabody, R.R. - The Common Sense of Drinking Russell, A.J. - For Sinners Only Troward, Thomas - The Edinburgh Lectures on Mental Science The Upper Room - a Methodist periodical Walter, H.A. - Soul Surgery This is the list that was provided for me from A.A. Archives. Anyone know of more books? Where else can I look? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5066. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4 times? From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2008 11:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good research Chris From what I've gleaned from past research and recorded in a timeline history document, Bill W had 4 admissions to Towns Hospital. Info and source references are below: AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen GB - Getting Better Inside AA by Nan Robertson LOH - Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz NW - New Wine, by Mel B PIO - Pass It On, AAWS RAA - The Roots of AA, by Bill Pittman 1933 Autumn, Bill W was quite literally drinking himself to death. In desperation, his wife Lois, now earning $22.50 a week at Macy's ($350 today) turned to her brother- in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, who arranged and paid for, Bill W's first admission to Towns Hospital. Bill was subjected to the "belladonna cure." The regimen primarily involved "purging and puking" aided by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal. Dr Strong was married to Bill's sister Dorothy. (PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174) 1934 July (?), Bill W's second admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V Strong). Bill met Dr Silkworth for the first time. Silkworth explained the obsession and allergy of alcoholism but Bill started drinking again almost immediately upon discharge. Bill was unemployable, $50,000 in debt ($757,000 today) suicidal and drinking around the clock. (AACOA 52, PIO 106-108, BW-40 114-117, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 50-55) 1934 September 17, Bill W's third admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V. Strong). Dr Silkworth pronounced Bill as hopeless and informed Lois that Bill would likely have to be committed. Bill left the hospital a deeply frightened man and sheer terror kept him sober. He found a little work on Wall St, which began to restore his badly shattered confidence. (PIO 106-109, LR 87, AACOA vii, 56, BW-RT 176-177, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 4-5, 54-55) 1934 December 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got financial help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31). Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5067. . . . . . . . . . . . The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr Bob Died 11/16/1950 From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2008 9:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The only recording I know of bearing this title (or a variant of it) is a reenactment created by Bill McN, who will btw be present at the History & Archives Gathering in Lebanon Pennsylvania on June 21, speaking on "Dramatizing AA History" -- and as Chris will be there, and if this is the talk he's referring to, he'll be able to check Bill's sources with him. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5068. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early four step AA program ??? From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2008 8:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From "terry walton" (twalton at 3gcinc.com) The Four steps to be taken? > From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book > story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369: > > "There are, it seems to me, four steps to be > taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism. > First: Have a real desire to quit. > Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.) > Third: Ask for His ever present help. > Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help." > > [That man's story is also on pg 193 of 2nd & > 3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to > He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4 > Steps.] I believe we have the precursor to these four items in the story of AA Number 3 (2nd, 3rd, and 4th edits.). Bill W. and Dr. Bob ask Bill D. the same four questions. I added the numbers for clarity's sake. In Bill D's story they were not referred to as "steps," simply questions. To me the word "steps" seems to imply a bigger or larger than life search as in searching for the holy grail of "who started the term "steps?" I would see their "steps" as a list of actions which they performed: "the next action is ..." "we took action" etc. "the directions of the actions are ..." [1] They said to me, "Do you want to quit drinking? [2] The next thing they wanted to know was if I thought I could quit of my own accord, without any help, if I could just walk out of the hospital and never take another drink. [3] The next question, they wanted to know was if I believed in a Higher Power. [4] The next thing they wanted to know was would I be willing to go to this Higher Power and ask for help, calmly and without any reservations. - - - - From: (rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com) The book "What is the Oxford Group" http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/what-is-the-oxford-group.pdf says the order is Sharing, Surrender, Restitution and Guidance. This is in accordance with the 5Cs in the book Soul Surgery, since Confidence and Confession are the Sharing step. Conviction is Surrender, where after the self-realization that comes from the sharing, one decides to surrender one's sins, which ultimately is one's self-centeredness (according to the book). This view of Surrender coming AFTER the Sharing Step seems to have been followed in the program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron, Ohio. In a paper published by Sr. Ignatia in 1951 about their 5-Day hospital program, she writes that Day 3 was the day of inventory, where the alky admits to God, himself, & another all his problems. After that she writes: "With self knowledge, he is asked to admit the truth: 'I am an alcoholic.'" (See the article by Mary C Darrah in Employee Assistance Quarterly, Vol 1, No.1 Fall 1985) Is this a claim that the 1st Step (Surrender) COMES AFTER the 5th Step (Sharing) instead of PRECEDING it? Thanks for your help. Much Love Rajiv IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5069. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2008 1:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Father of Light" is found on page 14 of "Bill's Story," Chapter 1 of Big Book. It's a misquote from the Epistle of St. James 1:17, which refers to the "Father of Lights." The reference to "many mansions" likely came from John 14:2, "in my Father's house are many mansions." Bill used the "many mansions" language often. john lee pittsburgh - - - - From: george cleveland (pauguspass at yahoo.com) While this is a fabulous prayer, it's not as I recall. What stood out about the prayer I saw at Stepping Stones was the term "Father of Lights". - - - - Message #5060 The prayer given in Pass It On, page 265: BILL AND LOIS'S PRAYER Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that we are from everlasting to everlasting. Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions to us of light, of love, and of service. May we find and do Thy will in good strength, in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present grace be discovered by family and friends -- those here and those beyond -- by our Societies throughout the world, by men and women everywhere, and among those who must lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou art everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us a destiny passing through Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of Thee and in no separation between ourselves. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5070. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr Bob Died 11/16/1950 From: david l . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2008 1:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a CD given to me by my sponsor of Bill's talk the night Dr. Bob died. My email address is: (heart943 at yahoo.com) - - - - From: "Jim S." (james.scarpine at verizon.net) See messages #654,#655,656 and 743. The last is the actor's "disclaimer," justifying his fictionalization of AA's history. Jim S. - - - - jlobdell54 wrote: The only recording I know of bearing this title (or a variant of it) is a reenactment created by Bill McN, who will btw be present at the History & Archives Gathering in Lebanon Pennsylvania on June 21, speaking on "Dramatizing AA History" -- and as Chris will be there, and if this is the talk he's referring to, he'll be able to check Bill's sources with him. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5071. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr Bob Died 11/16/1950 From: Jim Hoffman . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2008 11:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, My wife and I run a recording business here in Largo, Fl (between Clearwater and St. Pete). We often get someone asking us if we heard about a CD or tape of a talk Bill made at the Kip's Bay Group on the night Dr. Bob died. Lots of times they will have the tape or CD with them and wish to share it with us. We always feel a little bad when we have to tell them it is an actor and it is just a play he has written and performed. Usually we will play a real recording of Bill and the person will hear right away that the voices are different. We have never heard a real recording of Bill speaking on the night Dr. Bob died. The easiest way to check would be to compare the voice against a CD you know is one of Bill. GSO makes a copy of Bill talking about the Traditions and you should be able to pick one up at your Intergroup Office. Good Luck Jim Hoffman Vision Audio 727/539/0101 (Office) 727/581/3293 (Home) 727/251/3188 (Cell) visionaudio@verizon.net Jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com (Jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) - - - - Original message from: david l (heart943 at yahoo.com) I have a CD given to me by my sponsor of Bill's talk the night Dr. Bob died. My email address is: (heart943 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5072. . . . . . . . . . . . 14th printing circus jacket From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 11:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does an original circus jacket for the 14th printing say "14th printing" on it? Was the publisher at that time (1951) Works Publishing or Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.? I know that they are printing reproductions and I want to know if my jacket is original? It clearly looks old although in good condition??? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5073. . . . . . . . . . . . Recordings of Dr. Bob speaking? From: Li Lightfoot . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 8:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know if there are any recordings of Dr. Bob available to the public? Thanks, Li IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5074. . . . . . . . . . . . The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 8:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Lee The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc" to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc" occurred in 1953. The 12&12 was the first book distributed under the new publishing name. Cheers Arthur - - - - From: Hal Lackey (mudshark6178 at yahoo.com) Can't say about the dustcover. My 14th printing says Works Publishing. - - - - ORIGINAL MESSAGE from: "Lee Nickerson" (snowlily at megalink.net) 14th PRINTING CIRCUS JACKET Was the publisher at that time (1951) Works Publishing or Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5075. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 14th printing circus jacket From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2008 8:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The dust jacket for the 14th printing of the 1st edition reads: "Fourteenth Printing" on lower half of the spine of the dust jacket. Reproductions typically duplicate this accurately. The 14th printing was published by Works Publishing Inc. Old Bill - - - - From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Others may be in a better position to answer this question than I, but here goes. I don't have a 14th printing but I do have a 13th with an original DJ backed up by a facsimile. There are two differences that jump out at me. "Thirteenth Printing" is printed at the top of the front flap of the original but is missing from the facsimile. The red dot on the spine of the original seems to be smaller than that on the facsimile. It seems to me that the font used for the facsimile has "fatter" letters than the original, but that may be my imagination at work. There may be other differences, but I will leave it to the more observant to point them out. I have facsimile DJs on my other three First Editions. None of them have the printing number on the front flap. I hope this helps. Tommy in Baton Rouge P.S. After writing this, I came across a listing for a 1/16th which showed the DJ and it has the printing number on the front flap. There is a 1st/16th listed on eBay, item #300234353426. It has an original DJ and shows "Sixteenth Printing" on the front flap. Another suggestion that inclusion of the printing number in this location is an indi- cation that the DJ is original and not a facsimile. Tommy - - - - From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com (DudleyDobinson at aol.com) Hi Lee, The publisher of the 14th was Works Publishing and the DJ should say the same and have 14th on the spine and on the top of the front fly page. You can tell the replicas because they usually have a lighter yellow and the printing # on the spine only. This apart from apparent less wear and tear. I have a 4th,6th ,15th & 16th with originals, my other ones have replicas. Regards Dudley IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5076. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" From: srgntbilko . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2008 3:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My 11th printing of the Big Book says copyright by Works -- at the bottom of the page it says "By the Cornwall Press Inc. Cornwall, NY -- Printed in the United States of America." I don't know the business so I don't know what that all means. Sarge - - - - From the moderator: Cornwall Press was the printer; they were the ones who actually printed the books on their printing presses. See Messages 5016, 4802, 4295, 4291, 3937, 3677, 3617, 3292, 3207, 3117, etc. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5077. . . . . . . . . . . . 100th Anniversary of Buchmans awakening From: jays5279 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2008 2:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Today (this Friday, June 27, 2008) it is 100 years. Jay Stinnett 310/874/2341 - - - - The Apology That Launched a Million Amends June 27th, 2008, will mark the 100th anniversary of Frank Buchman's Spiritual Awakening – one that directly linked him to the cofounders of AA He gave everything he had to establishing a shelter for homeless boys in the slums of Philadelphia. The shelters success surpassed his budget and the six-member board of directors insisted that he cut the amount of food being given to his charges. He quit instead of cutting back. Resentment consumed him. His family despaired that he might not come to his senses. His work was destroyed by what he saw as the shortsightedness of others. His health was well past the breaking point. "Everywhere I went, I took me with me," he later said. During a trip to recuperate in Europe, he exhausted the funds his father gave him and existed on the kindness of his family and the generosity of acquaintances. Tired and dejected he went to an Evangelical Conference in Keswick, England, hoping to connect with F.B. Meyer, a famous minister he knew, for spiritual help. Meyer was not in attendance; another plan gone awry. June 27, 1908, thirty year-old Frank Buchman, a Pennsylvanian Lutheran minister, walked into an afternoon service with 17 other people to hear Jessie Penn Lewis preach on the cross of Christ. And then it happened. As Buchman sat in that Chapel, "There was a moment of spiritual peak of what God could do for me. I was made a new man. My hatred was gone ... I knew I had to write six letters to those men I hated." "I am writing," declared Buchman, "to tell you that I have harbored an unkind feeling toward you -- at times I conquered it but it always came back. Our views may differ but as brothers we must love. I write to ask your forgiveness and to assure that I love you and trust by God's grace I shall never more speak unkindly or disparagingly of you." Those letters of amends spawned a revolution in Frank Buchman, a revolution that led to the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous. That evening, Frank was introduced to a young Cambridge man, who upon hearing Buchman's tale of moral regeneration made a decision to change his own life. As Buchman described it, "This was the first fellow who I knew that I had ever brought face to face with that central experience." For the next half century Buchman dedicated his life to demonstrating that an experience of God was available to anyone at any time, regardless of race, religion, class or nationality. From England, Frank returned to the United States where he went to work as the YMCA director at Penn State University. There he had a profound effect on campus life, due in part to the conversion of the campus bootlegger, who during a trip to Toronto with Frank and a group of students from Penn State, made a decision to change his life. After having Frank help him by writing an amends letter to his wife, the bootlegger never drank again and went around the world with Frank talking about his change. Frank Buchman described the four years that he spent at Penn State as the laboratory in which he developed a practical program of action and learned how to have honest conversations that led people to make decisions to change their lives. The formula he developed was: 1. The sharing of our sins and temptations with another Christian life given to God, and to use sharing as witness to help others, still unchanged, to recognize and acknowledge their sins. 2. Surrender of our life, past, present, and future, into God's keeping and direction. 3. Restitution to all whom we have wronged directly or indirectly. 4. Listening to, accepting, relying on God's guidance and carrying it out in everything we do or say, great or small. Sound familiar? The application of this course of action revolutionized the spiritual life of the campus, and its success brought Christian evangelists from all over the world to find out what was happening on a backwater campus that had been paralyzed by strife. After Penn State, Frank went to China in 1917 where an honest conversation with a young Sam Shoemaker helped Sam to tell him, "I have been a pious fraud, pretending to serve God but actually keeping all the trump cards in my own hands. Now I've told Him how sorry I am, and I trust you'll forgive me for harboring ill will against you. This sprang up the moment you used that word sin!" Buchman said that he freely forgave him. "Now what's the next step?" Shoemaker asked. The next step was making amends to Sam's Bible study class. The trouble was, Shoemaker told his Chinese students, he disliked China. That admission produced such a profound spiritual experience in Shoemaker that it led to his working closely with Buchman for the next twenty-one years and brought the revolution of "First Century Christianity" (later known as the Oxford Group) to people worldwide. The message of personal revolution was transmitted by one "informed Christian" sharing with another and by inviting people to "house parties." If you have ever attended an AA convention or round up you have experienced an Oxford Group house party. Speakers were brought in from a variety of places to share their experience, strength and hope in both large speaker meetings and small special interest meetings. Men would tell their stories in men's meetings; women in women's; there were even forums for drug addicts, overeaters, and drunks. At these gatherings, both speakers and experienced members would be available for "personal interviews" where sharing and surrender could take place. Then people would be encouraged to make restitution and have a daily "quiet time" to receive inspiration on how to conduct their lives. When he was pressed for a definition of sin, Buchman said, "What is a sin for one person may not be a sin for another. The true definition of sin is that it is something that separates you from God or from your fellows." In 1922, Jim Newton, a young salesman with a taste for fast living, followed a group of attractive young women into a hotel ballroom thinking they were going to a dance. To his dismay he found himself in an Oxford Group house party at the Toy Town Tavern in Winchengton, Massachusetts, where he heard a message that changed his life. Buchman referred Newton to Shoemaker who helped Newton take stock of his life, surrender, make restitution, and start to live a "guided life." If you wish to know the Oxford Group technique of guidance read pages 85-87 in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. A few years later, Jim Newton was trying to help Bud F., the alcoholic son of his employer, Harvey F., to change. Unable to help his friend, Jim introduced Bud to his mentor, Samuel Shoemaker. Sam, who had a remarkable gift bringing people to make a decision, went through the process with Bud who immediately lost his obsession to drink, made amends to his father and wife, and returned to the good graces of his family. Harvey F. was so impressed with the change in his son that he convinced his fellow industri- alists in Akron, Ohio, to help underwrite an Oxford Group house party held in January 1933 at the Mayflower Hotel. Buchman and his team were welcomed by the Rev. Walter Tunks, a close friend of the F. family; also in attendance were Henrietta Seiberling and T. Henry and Clarace Williams who were to become the founders of the West Hills meeting of the Oxford Group in Akron. Also in 1933, Shoemaker's ministry at Calvary Church in New York City's Gramercy Park was a hub of Oxford Group activity. There were Oxford Group meetings held three times a week at Calvary Church where people shared the life changes they had discovered from applying the Oxford Group principles. He also founded the Calvary Mission, which was a hostel for indigent alcoholic men. Many important families had ties to this Calvary Church, among them the H. family whose eldest son Rowland was described by Bill W. as "a business man who had ability, good sense and high character ... who had floundered from one sanitarium to another." Rowland had returned from Europe after another attempt to get his life in order after consult- ing with Dr. Carl Jung. Rowland was drinking and going to Oxford Group meetings at Calvary Church. Among the people whom he met at Calvary was Vic Kitchen, author of I Was a Pagan (published in 1934), which described his release from alcoholism, drug addiction, and "anything that gave me pleasure, power or applause" in the Oxford Group. While on a business trip to Detroit, Rowland read the book, identified at depth, and as Shoemaker said, "had a change right there on the train." Rowland stopped drinking, reconciled with his family, made restitution for questionable business dealings, became active with the Oxford Group businessmen's team, spoke at meetings and encouraged others to find what he had found. One of the many people Rowland touched was an old childhood friend, Edwin 'Ebby' T., who was about to be locked up as a chronic inebriate. Rowland, whose alcohol problem was well known, convinced the judge to release Ebby into his care. Two weeks later, Ebby was speaking at Oxford Group meetings around Vermont, and after a couple of weeks with Rowland (who had all of six months in the group), the freshly sober Ebby moved into Calvary Mission in New York City and became active there. Sober six weeks, Ebby was inspired to find another old school friend, Bill W., who was known to be in awful shape. Bill could not get the change in Ebby out of his mind for he knew his friend was a hopeless drunk like himself, yet was sober. A few days after that, Bill went to see Ebby at the Calvary Mission, gave an impassioned, albeit drunken testimony from the podium and soon after landed in Townes Hospital. Ebby visited him there and reacquainted Bill with the steps of the Oxford Group whereupon Bill had his profound white light experience, lost his compulsion to drink and was seized with a desire to pass on his experience to others. When Bill was released, he and Lois immediately started attending Oxford Group meetings at Calvary Church and had frequent contact with Sam Shoemaker. Lois said that they went to a minimum of three meetings a week and attended house parties during the first three years of Bill's sobriety. Six months after sobering up, Bill went to Akron, Ohio, on a business venture that failed. When he found himself about to enter the bar at the same Mayflower Hotel where the Oxford Group had met, he started searching for an to help. That moment of desperation led him to the Rev. Walter Tunks and ultimately to Henrietta Seiberling who knew just the man. A local proctologist, who thought he was a closet drinker, had been attending the West Hill Oxford Group meeting for two years with his wife, his problem becoming progressively worse. The Doctor later described his impression of the West Hills Group, "I was thrown in with a crowd of people .... I sensed that they had something I did not have, from which I might readily profit. I learned that it was something of a spiritual nature, which did not appeal to me very much, but I thought it could do no harm." Bill W. met with Bob S. (lovingly referred to as Dr. Bob) on Mother's Day 1935. Bob stopped drinking abruptly. Though he accepted Bill's description of alcoholism as a fatal illness and the Oxford Group steps as the solution, Bob believed that making restitution to those he had harmed would destroy his practice and put his family further at risk. A short time later, Bob drank again and was completely demoralized. On the way to perform a surgery, Bill steadied his friend's hand with a bottle of beer and a "goofball." Before entering the hospital, Bob told Bill, "I am going to go through with it." That afternoon Bob did not return home. His wife, Anne, and Bill were filled with dread that Bob had gone on another binge. When Dr. Bob returned late that night, he told his frightened loved ones that he had been making restitution to people to whom he had been too afraid to admit his alcoholism. Bob S. never took another drink. AA's anniversary is not the day Bill W. stopped drinking, nor the day that he met Dr. Bob, but the day that Bob stopped drinking and made his amends. From 100 years ago in Keswick, to 73 years ago in Akron, to this very moment; women and men are proving the validity of their own personal spiritual awakening by making amends for their past wrongs, making restitution and rectifying their errors. Frank Buchman's metamorphosis was remarkable. He developed a program for personal change that affected homes and nations. It is a practical program of action using the four standards of absolute honesty, purity, unselfishness and love. Over the past one hundred years, Buchman's vision has been transmitted under different names: First Century Christian Movement, the Oxford Group, Moral Re-Armament, and since 2001, Initiatives of Change, which continues to heal the wounds of history by building trust across the world's divides. Without Frank Buchman, those of us in today's many anonymous programs would have no 12 steps and no freedom from bondage. His spiritual awakening and the action that followed indeed launched a million amends and produced many millions of transformed lives. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5078. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2008 11:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc. 12 and 12 cost $2.75 according to the (blue) jacket price and was identified as first edition d-c and copyright 1952-1953. There was also a 12 and 12 published by Harper's with a different colored jacket (greenish blue) also $2.75. It is first edition also marked d-c and stated published by Harper & Brothers, New York by arrangement with Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc. It is copyright 1952-1953 by Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa. - - - - In a message dated 6/27/2008 3:26:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ArtSheehan@msn.com writes: The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc" to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc" occurred in 1953. The 12&12 was the first book distributed under the new publishing name. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5079. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Recordings of Dr. Bob speaking? From: Byron Bateman . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2008 7:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Li, There is a cassette tape available from AAWS, or perhaps, your intergroup office. (Probably a CD by now) The title is: "Voices of our Co-Founders." It has both Bill W. and Dr. Bob on the tape. I have one somewhere and as I recall it contains two speeches by Dr. Bob, and three speeches by Bill W. I can find it and give you specifics if you would like to email me personally: "Byron Bateman" (byronbateman at hotmail.com) It should be widely available through A.A. sources. The quality of Dr. Bob's speeches is not very good because the originals were cut on a wire recorder I was told. Byron - - - - From: barefootbill@optonline.net (barefootbill at optonline.net) Please go to http://www.justloveaudio.com then click on "store" then click on "Recovery Audio" then click on "AA" then do a search by putting in Dr. Bob in the speaker field. We have every known talk by Dr. Bob all on one CD. Thanks & God bless. - - - - From: "jfk92452000" (jfk92452000 at yahoo.com) Li, Yes there are several recordings of Dr. Bob. His last talk at the Cleveland Convention in 1950 was recorded and is available from "Nova Tapes by Earl" in Cross Junction, Virginia. 540/888/4505 or 800/825/0560. I think there is an on-line site. These recordings were done originally on spool and are tough to listen to but the message and hearing his voice will send chills up your spine. There are recordings of Bill, Sister Ignatia , Reverend Sam Shoemaker and Ebby and many others. They are great because I feel like I am getting the program right from the horses mouth. Let me know if you have any problem contacting Nova. John F.Kenney - - - - From: James Bliss (james.bliss at comcast.net) Mike Barns (mikeb384 at verizon.net) (elg3_79 at yahoo.com) robin@brieftsf.com (robin at brieftsf.com) Go to http://www.xa-speakers.org and search for Dr. Bob. There are three recordings of Dr. Bob available for download or listening at: http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=326 Jim - - - - From: "oldsmokef" (oldsmokef at yahoo.com) (elg3_79 at yahoo.com) Mike Craven (wahoo126 at embarqmail.com) Dave (onemoreday214 at yahoo.com) Look here: http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm - - - - From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com Hi Li, I have a recording of Bill W. and Dr. Bob speaking at the "big meeting" in Cleveland 1950. The recording lasts 1.08 hours and is 8.23mb. The format is Real Player and I will forward it to anyone who wants it. Olease send your request to my email address: DudleyDobinson@aol.com (DudleyDobinson at aol.com) In fellowship Dudley IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5080. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2008 9:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In message 5021, Jared Lobdell (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) commented: "I'd be interested to know which was the story Tom included [in the second edition of the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or whose author they didn't like)." - - - - Matt D. (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds: 2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor." The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg. Matt D - - - - For more about that story, see: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm (http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html) "New Vision for a Sculptor" Fred (last name unknown) New York City p. 426 in 2nd edition Glenn C., Moderator IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5081. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: New Vision for a Sculptor From: Mike Saulle . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2008 12:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 2nd edition Big Book story "New Vision for a Sculptor" can be found in "Experience, Strength and Hope," the AAWS collection of all the earlier Big Book stories which are no longer in the present edition of the Big Book: see pages 166-178. - - - - In message 5021, Jared Lobdell (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) commented: "I'd be interested to know which was the story Tom included [in the second edition of the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or whose author they didn't like)." - - - - Matt D. (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds: 2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor." The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg. Matt D - - - - For more about that story, see: http://www.a- 1associates. com/aa/Authors. htm (http://silkworth. net/aabiography/ storyauthors. html) "New Vision for a Sculptor" Fred (last name unknown) New York City p. 426 in 2nd edition IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5082. . . . . . . . . . . . AA History Resource From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2008 10:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just want the group to be aware of an AA history resource — 24 Newsletter. 24 Newsletter is a current version of the 24 Magazine. 24 Magazine was probably best known for the article, "Gresham's Law and Alcoholics Anonymous." The author of this article is Tom P. Jr. Tom P. Jr. is the publisher of 24 Newsletter and contributes an article about AA each month. To view June's 24 Newsletter: http://www.24-communications.com/062008/062008.pdf For an example of little bits of AA history -- in June's newsletter Tom Jr. gives the name of the hymn Marty Mann used to describe her spiritual experience to Dr. Tiebout which was, "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms." Next month's main article is about Dr. Tom M. (AA 1939) -- in which Bill W. called, "One of the greatest stories to come out of AA" -- and is an actual transcript of Bill telling about Dr. Tom M. Dr. Tom got the AA Big Book in 1939 while a patient at Lexington Hospital for drug addicts. Tom M. wrote to AA, got sober, started one of the first groups to communicate with headquarters by mail, and more. To sign up for a free version of this newsletter email: alladdictsanonymous@gmail.com (alladdictsanonymous at gmail.com) Please specify if you would like this resource mailed to your home (and in such case give us your mailing address) or if just the online version. Either way this resource is free! Matt D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5083. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editors of Second Edition: Fred G. From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2008 8:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "New Vision for a Sculptor" was controversial because Fred Ginsberg didn't get officially sober in AA —- he was ten years dry when he hit his first AA meeting. Matt D. - - - - > In message 5021, Jared Lobdell > (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) > commented: > > "I'd be interested to know which was the > story Tom included [in the second edition of > the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or > whose author they didn't like)." > > - - - - > > Matt D. > (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds: > > 2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor." > The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg. > > Matt D > > - - - - > > For more about that story, see: > > http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm > (http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html) > > "New Vision for a Sculptor" > Fred (last name unknown) > New York City > p. 426 in 2nd edition > > Glenn C., Moderator > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5084. . . . . . . . . . . . Spiritual not religious From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2008 4:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We frequently hear in the rooms that the AA program is "spiritual not religious." I am aware that Bill W. has been quoted as saying "we are not a religious organization" and that the Big Book says ... "we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral." Does anyone recall seeing in anything in print attributable to Bill W., the first 100 or in Conference literature that says "spriritual not religious"? Facts only please, no opinions on the topic! God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5085. . . . . . . . . . . . Fifth steps in early AA From: Raymond Shepherd . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2008 10:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What was the procedure for early AA members to take Step Five? The Big Book, the 12x12, The Little Red Book all suggest people outside of AA to hear the fifth step. Some of my protogees question my use of The Little Red Book because it tells the reader 'when the right time arrives, arrange an interview with anyone outside AA who will be understanding but unaffected by your narration.' Does anyone have information regarding hearing of Fifth steps in early AA prior to 1953? Ray S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5086. . . . . . . . . . . . Set A Side Prayer From: Alan Spencer . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2008 12:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Some of the Big Book Studies around the country use a prayer called the set-a-side prayer; does anyone have the words? Thanks, Alan in the Desert IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5087. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Tom M. (AA 1939) From: mrpetesplace . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/1/2008 10:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A man named Dr. Tom M. was referred to in message 5082: "AA History Resource" from: (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5082 That message said: <> <> - - - - I would like to know if this Dr. Tom M. is the same person as the man who is associated with Shelby, North Carolina. That is where AA started in this state. This man went to Lexington, Kentucky. I'm fairly sure that this is the same person. I would like to get as much info on Dr. Tom M. as I can. I'm going to be posting local history for this area soon at http://aastuff.com/ This would be the doctor that Bill talks about visiting on his trip south and stopped off at a little town when he closed his talk with the Yale Summer lectures on Alcoholism. The other person to spread AA in North Carolina was mentioned in AA Comes of Age. He had moved south and started the Charlotte group which was the second group listed with the Alcoholic Foundation (as it was called then, now called the GSO). Interesting too was when Dr. Tom corresponded with NY they were already sharing about how the AA Program could help addicts as well. Anyway ... thanks to anyone who can provide this information or transcripts of correspondence. Peter F., NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5088. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Set A Side Prayer From: DalPalGal@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here ya go, Alan ... from The 12 Step Prayer Book: Lord, today help me set aside everything I think I know about You Everything I think I know about myself Everything I think I know about others and Everything I think I know about my own recovery For a new experience in myself A new experience in my fellows and my own recovery. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5089. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2008 4:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A third printing by Harper of the 12&12 ??? - - - - I have a Harper 12&12 with BK also. I believe there is a third printing by Harper but I only saw it one time and did not note the Harper code for the date of publication. I could kick myself now. - - - - > The Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc. > 12 and 12 cost $2.75 according to the (blue) > jacket price and was identified as first > edition d-c and copyright 1952-1953. > > There was also a 12 and 12 published by > Harper's with a different colored jacket > (greenish blue) also $2.75. It is first > edition also marked d-c and stated published > by Harper & Brothers, New York by arrangement > with Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc. > It is copyright 1952-1953 by Alcoholics > Anonymous Publishing Inc. > > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike Gwirtz > Phila, Pa. > > - - - - > > In a message dated 6/27/2008 3:26:32 P.M. > Eastern Daylight Time, ArtSheehan@msn.com writes: > > The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc" > to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc" > occurred in 1953. > > The 12&12 was the first book distributed under > the new publishing name. > > Cheers > Arthur > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5090. . . . . . . . . . . . The start of AA in Cuba (Part 1 of 2) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Bruce Kennedy (BruceKen at aol.com) The start of AA in Cuba Summary: (Hulda Lorente's full recollections appear as an appendix to this document.) Deteriorating economic conditions following the collapse of the Soviet Union had brought alcoholism and other social problems to a crisis point in Cuba by 1992. On a visit to Cuba from Miami, a non-alcoholic Cuban friend of AA, Hulda Lorente, gained an appointment with a representative of the Central Committee of the Cuban Communist Party and explained the AA program. She was advised to contact a Protestant pastoral couple in Havana, skilled in working with social problems: Juan Naranjo and Estela Hernandez. After several false starts, including the demurral of several Miami Cuban AA groups when asked to help, Lorente made contact with the San Francisco-based organization which had helped start and spread the Program in the Soviet Union and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. Although this organization was unable to extend its writ to Latin America, one of its members, Bruce K., learned of Lorente's quest and contacted her. He then "recruited" six other AA friends, mostly from the Bay Area, and together with Lorente, navigated the red tape of visas and travel arrangements. The seven American AA members plus Hulda Lorente arrived in Havana on January xxth, 1993, were met by the Reverends Hernandez and Naranjo, and were hosted at their Baptist church for a week. They arranged for seven local alcoholics to come to the church for a discussion of alcoholism, resulting in the first AA meeting, Jan. 19th, 1993. Two subsequent meetings were held during the course of that week. At the last meeting, the Cuban alcoholics chose a name for their group: Grupo Sueño ("Dream Group"), based on their belief that after the Americans left, their brief experience with sobriety and AA would be nothing but a dream. Note: the large Grupo Sueño still meets three times a week in Havana, and is Cuba's "official" first group. The original seven Cuban members all drank, but not before carrying the message to others. Two of these others, sober since January 1993, are now the "oldest" Cuban AA members as of the 10th anniversary. Five months later, June, 1993, one of the seven Americans, Arkie K., who speaks Spanish, returned to Cuba with a Spanish-speaking friend from La Jolla, Mike C. They traveled with Naranjo and Hernandez and with a member of the Grupo Sueño to the inland city of Santa Clara, where, with the help of another Protestant pastor, Cuba's second AA group was founded ("Grupo Nueva Vida" -- new life). Thereafter, the message began to spread rapidly. A major contributing factor was that Mexican AA members were now traveling to Cuba in large numbers, bringing Spanish language AA literature as well as their experience, strength and hope. Another factor was the poor state of public transportation, creating the necessity for meetings closer to home. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5091. . . . . . . . . . . . The start of AA in Cuba (Part 2 of 2) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Bruce Kennedy (BruceKen at aol.com) Appendix: The beginnings of AA in Cuba -- Hulda Lorente's story You asked me to tell you the story of how the message of AA arrived in Cuba in January, 1993. I learned about the program of AA through a friend about 10 years prior to this date in Syracuse, NY. I remember we were eating donuts and drinking coffee after the Service at Unity Church in Syracuse, and timidly I came over to say hello. As I spoke, the first question I was asked by Marti R. was, where was my English accent from, to which even more timidly I responded: from Cuba. I was surprised to see the brightness in her eyes when she said: from Cuba? How wonderful! From there on I felt very comfortable as if I were home. I could speak about Cuba with someone from the bottom of my heart. I had found a friend. From Marti R., I learned that AA was her spiritual path. What I heard sounded good. As she explained to me the program I learned to accept the Twelve Steps as a way of life, without ever asking myself the reason why it was so important for her to pass on the message. I never thought to relate the program of recovery with alcohol, primarily because I never saw alcohol anywhere in the ten years that later on we shared an apartment in Miami, Florida, and secondly because I became fascinated with the Twelve Steps. The Twelve Steps of AA appeared to me to be logical, rational, well-thought, with universal characteristics, good for everybody. I never felt the need to join an Alanon group. I went to the AA open meetings because I liked the people. The idea of bringing the message of AA to Cuba happened on a very hot day of the month of July in one of my trips to Cuba to visit my family. I was walking by a park on Linea Street and saw a man apparently asleep on a steamily hot sidewalk. I wondered what was the matter, and people passing by did not help when realizing the man was drunk. I had never seen before the effects of alcohol so closely. I came back home to Miami with the determination to make the program of recovery of AA to be known in Cuba. With the assurance of having by my side the support of a well seasoned experienced member of AA, I started talking to my friends from Cuba in transit in Miami about AA. I sent books with them, and encouraged them to open the doors of their hearts and their churches to meetings for people with problems with alcohol to get together to study the books. By doing this, the idea did not go too far. I thought I should go farther with it. With the help of my friend and spiritual mentor, Dr. Adolfo Ham, I was able to get an interview with Dr. Silvio Platero, a member of the Office of Religious Affairs of the PCC. I don't remember the date. I left with Dr. Platero the blue book of AA and others. I told him that I wanted to invite a pastor from Cuba to spend 30 days in Miami to go to as many AA meetings as possible in Spanish. The person I was directed to was the Rev. Juan Francisco Naranjo. The Rev. Naranjo and his wife, the Rev. Estela Hernandez, were very active in community services. I talked to them, and pastor Naranjo accepted my invitation to come to Miami in spite of telling him that I did not have any money to pay for his airfare and expenses. I wrote a letter of invitation to him, and with that he was able to obtain a visa to travel from Cuba to the U.S. When pastor Naranjo returned to Cuba, he brought with him several books and started AA group meetings at his church. Even with this, the idea did not make any progress. Pastor Naranjo was not an alcoholic. The program of recovery only works among alcoholics, sharing, as you say their strengths, hopes and experiences. The Cubans in Miami did not take up the challenge thinking that they had to wait for the revolution to be over before they could bring the message of AA to Cuba. One day, commenting about my project of bringing the message of AA to Cuba with friends from Peacenet, someone sent me an e-mail from South Africa, I don't remember her name, who gave me the phone number and the address of the organi- zation based in San Francisco, CA, USA, "Creating A Sober World". Without waiting long, Bruce K, their coordinator, and I started planning a trip to Cuba with members of this organization. Bruce K called the Department of State, and there was no need to apply for a special license for the initial group of 6 people to travel to Cuba. We were received by the Rev. Juan Francisco Naranjo and Estela Hernandez at the Havana airport with free visas. We stayed with them, they provided us with a meeting room, took care of the details of a marvelous program of activities in Cuba that included visits to hospitals and places of treatment for alcoholism. Thus, this is how the first AA group "Sueño" started in Cuba at the "William Carey" Baptist Church in January, 1993. I remember bringing Julio to the meeting twice by the hand, and twice he was asked to come back sober. There was another person in the meeting telling his best friend how bad was his drinking habits, and with that person the first group of Alanon started in Cuba. The rest of the story has been written in a report by Bruce K, which remains in the archives of the organization "Creating a Sober World." I am sure a copy could be made available to you through Arkie K. or Bruce K. I visited the Office of General Services of AA in Havana last December, 2001. Almost ten years after our first visit in 1993, there are almost 100 AA groups across the Island of Cuba. I am mystified over the dedication that the offices of general services of AA offer to the world and the role every one of its members play locally to make the program work. My message to my friends who still don't know about AA, or those who perhaps know about it, but are still in doubt, is that they may open the doors of their hearts, their churches and meeting places to the groups of AA in Cuba. Hulda Lorente P.O. Box 56032 St. Petersburg, FL 33732 Tel. 727/528/3149 e-mail: hlorente@hotmail.com (hlorente at hotmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5092. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We have Earl Treat's story of doing the early steps in his story "He Sold Himself Short." The specific passage is on p. 292 in the Third Edition and p. 263 in the current edition. Technically, though, this wasn't a Fifth Step as the program had only six steps at the time. He did it with Dr. Bob. No mention is made of going through the steps with someone outside the program. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - At 21:28 7/5/2008, Raymond Shepherd wrote: >What was the procedure for early AA members >to take Step Five? The Big Book, the 12x12, >The Little Red Book all suggest people outside >of AA to hear the fifth step. > >Some of my protogees question my use of The >Little Red Book because it tells the reader >'when the right time arrives, arrange an >interview with anyone outside AA who will >be understanding but unaffected by your >narration.' > >Does anyone have information regarding hearing >of Fifth steps in early AA prior to 1953? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5093. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Spiritual not religious From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 12:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a letter dated 1954 (seen in The AA Way of Life pg 95) Bill wrote, "We are only operating a spiritual kindergarden to which people are enabled to get over drinking and find the grace to go on living to better effect. Each man's theology has to be his own quest, his own value." The rest of pg 95 attributes its quotations to AACOA pp 162, 163, 167. "When the Big Book was being planned,some members thought that it ought to be Christian in the doctrinal sense. Others had no objection to the use of the word "God," but wanted to avoid doctrinal issues. Spirituality, yes. Religion, no. Still others wanted a psycho- logical book, to lure the Alcoholic in. Once in he could take God or leave him alone as he wished. To the rest of us this was shocking, but happily we listened. Our group conscience was at work to construct the most acceptable and effective book possible. Every voice was playing its appointed part. Our atheists and agnostics widened our gateway so that all who suffer might pass through, regardless of their belief or lack of belief." Yours in Service Shakey Mike Gwirtz - - - - From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) The description of AA as "spiritual" rather than "religious" goes back to the earliest days. See for example this reference from 1940: Message 381 Possibly the 1st AA Pamphlet http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/381 From William Lash THE FIRST “A.A.” PAMPHLET AS DERIVED FROM THE SERIES OF ARTICLES FROM THE HOUSTON PRESS BY LARRY JEWELL* (April 1940) [*Larry Jewell came to Houston from Cleveland with only a Big Book and a Spiritual Experience resulting from having taken the Steps while hospitalized. His Sponsors were Dr. Bob Smith & Clarence Snyder.] "This approach to alcoholism is squarely based on our own drinking experience, what we have learned from medicine and psychiatry, and upon certain spiritual principles common to all creeds. We think each man’s religious views, if he has any, are his own affair. No member is obliged to conform to anything whatever except to admit that he has the alcoholic illness and that he honestly wishes to be rid of it." "While every shade of opinion is expressed among us we take no position as a group, upon controversial questions. We are only trying to aid the sick men and distracted families who want to be at peace. We have found that genuine tolerance of others, coupled with a friendly desire to be of service is most essential to our recovery." - - - - In a message dated 7/6/2008 3:14:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jax760@yahoo.com writes: We frequently hear in the rooms that the AA program is "spiritual not religious." I am aware that Bill W. has been quoted as saying "we are not a religious organization" and that the Big Book says ... "we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral." Does anyone recall seeing in anything in print attributable to Bill W., the first 100 or in Conference literature that says "spriritual not religious"? Facts only please, no opinions on the topic! God Bless John B IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5094. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Set A Side Prayer From: jm48301 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 5:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Alan Spencer wrote: > > Some of the Big Book Studies around the country > use a prayer called the set-a-side prayer; does > anyone have the words? > > Thanks, > Alan in the Desert ______________________________________ The text of the Set-Aside Prayer and an explanation of its source can be found in: http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/12_Steps_Recovery/Pre-Step_Work/\ Set-Aside_Prayer.pdf [17] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5095. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Spiritual not religious From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 10:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John Regrettably there is much repeated in AA that has no basis in fact. Early AA was very "pro religion" but it never attempted to project itself as a religion. When too few words are cited it is usually at the expense of context. And I don't agree at all with the context you are portraying. This is rather long reply since you are seeking citations. From my own investigations it seems that attempts to draw a distinction between the words "spiritual" and "religious" are flawed and sophomoric. The two words can be used interchangeably based on just about any dictionary. Do a search on the internet for the text string "definition of spiritual." Almost every return that derives from a dictionary will define the word "spiritual" as "religious" or "of religion" or "of the soul" (spirit). Attempts to draw a contrasting distinction between the two words rest far more in the secularism of contemporary AA rather than in AA's historical roots. Many of AA's early historical friends were members of the clergy and their influence was profound. Bill W often stated that AA's two best friends were medicine and religion. Over the past two decades the rise of secularism has spawned the notion of the words "religion" or "religious" to almost be pejoratives. I find this very disturbing. Also be careful to not be too selective in the sparse citing of Bill W and the Big Book -- both cite many favorable descriptions of "religion" or "religious." For example: From Bill W's address to the 1960 National Clergy Conference On Alcoholism: (1) "Excellencies and Friends: My thanks to Father Ray for his introduction. He has us off to an appropriate start. This hour with you is most meaningful to me and I trust it will be to you and to A.A. as a whole. Every thoughtful A.A. realizes that the divine grace, which has always flowed through the Church, is the ultimate foundation on which AA rests. Our spiritual origins are Christian ..." (2) "... It now occurs to me that it may be profitable if we were to review the origins of AA; to take a look at some of its under- lying mechanisms -- an interior look as it were. Of course I am here reflecting my own views, and some of these are bound to be speculative. At any rate, here they are. Though AA roots are in the centuries-old Christian community, there seems little doubt that in an immediate sense our fellowship began in the office of the much-respected Dr. Carl Jung of Zurich ..." (3) "... Now a final thought. Many a non- alcoholic clergyman asks these questions about Alcoholics Anonymous: "Why do clergymen so often fail with alcoholics, when AA so often succeeds? Is it possible that the grace of AA is superior to that of the Church? Is Alcoholics Anonymous a new religion, a competitor of the Church? If these misgivings had real substance, they would be serious indeed. But, as I have already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot in the least be regarded as a new religion. Our Twelve Steps have no theological content, except that which speaks of "God as we under- stand Him." This means that each individual AA member may define God according to whatever faith or creed he may have. Therefore there isn't the slightest interference with the religious views of any of our membership. The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral attitudes and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in character. Therefore, as far as they go, the Steps are good Christianity; indeed they are good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have affirmed more than once. Neither does AA exert the slightest religious authority over its members: No one is compelled to believe anything. No one is compelled to meet membership conditions. No one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we have no system of authority, spiritual or temporal, that is comparable to or in the least competitive with the Church. At the center of our society we have a Board of Trustees. This body is accountable yearly to a Conference of elected Delegates. These Delegates represent the conscience and desire of AA as regards functional or service matters. Our Tradition contains an emphatic injunction that these Trustees may never constitute themselves as a government -- they are to merely provide certain services that enable AA as a whole to function. The same principles apply at our group and area level. Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his own religious views. For whatever they may be worth, I have my own. But both of us have gone heavily on record to the effect that these personal views and preferences can never under any conditions be injected into the AA program as a working part of it. AA is a sort of spiritual kindergarten, but that is all. Never could it be called a religion. Nor should any clergyman, because he does not happen to be a channel of grace to alcoholics, feel that he or his Church is lacking in grace. No real question of grace is involved at all - it is just a question of who can best transmit God's abundance. It so happens that we who have suffered alcoholism, we who can identify so deeply with other sufferers, are the ones usually best suited for this parti- cular work. Certainly no clergyman ought to feel any inferiority just because he himself is not an alcoholic! Then, as I have already emphasized, AA has actually derived all of its principles, directly or indirectly, from the Church. Ours, gentlemen, is a debt of gratitude far beyond any ability of mine to express. On behalf of members everywhere, I give you our deepest thanks for the warm understanding and the wonderful co-operation that you have everywhere afforded us. Please also have my gratitude for the privilege of being with you this morning. This is an hour that I shall remember always ..." From the Q&A that followed Bill's address: (4) "... When these Steps were shown to my friends, their reactions were quite mixed indeed. Some argued that six steps had worked fine, so why twelve? From our agnostic contingent there were loud cries of too much "God." Others objected to an expression, which I had included which suggested getting on one's knees while in prayer. I heavily resisted these objections for months. But finally did take out my statement about a suitable prayer- ful posture and I finally went along with that now tremendously important expression, "God as we understand Him" - this expression having been coined, I think, by one of our former atheist members. This was indeed a ten-strike. That one has since enabled thousands to join AA who would have otherwise gone away. It enabled people of fine religious training and those of none at all to associate freely and to work together. It made one's religion the business of the AA member himself and not that of his society. That AA's Twelve Steps have since been in such high esteem by the Church, that members of the Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention to the similarity between them and the Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for our great wonder and gratitude indeed ..." (5) From the Foreword to the Second Edition Big Book: "... Another reason for the wide acceptance of A.A. was the ministration of friends -- friends in medicine, religion, and the press, together with innumerable others who became our able and persistent advocates. Without such support, A.A. could have made only the slowest progress. Some of the recommendations of A.A.'s early medical and religious friends will be found further on in this book. Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization. Neither does A.A. take any particular medical point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion. Alcohol being no respecter of persons, we are an accurate cross section of America, and in distant lands, the same democratic evening-up process is now going on. By personal religious affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women ..." (6) From Bill's Story "... The door opened and he stood there, fresh-skinned and glowing. There was something about his eyes. He was inexplicably different. What had happened? I pushed a drink across the table. He refused it. Disappointed but curious, I wondered what had got into the fellow. He wasn't himself. "Come, what's this all about?" I queried. He looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly, he said, "I've got religion ..." (7) From We Agnostics "... We, who have traveled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. We have learned that whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths have given purpose and direction to millions. People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about. Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception whatever. We used to amuse our- selves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons of all races, colors, and creeds were demon- strating a degree of stability, happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves ..." (8) From Into Action "... We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live long or happily in this world. Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it. Though we have no religious connection, we may still do well to talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a person quick to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter people who do not understand alcoholics ..." "... If circumstances warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning devotion, we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer ..." (9) From Working With Others "... Your prospect may belong to a religious denomination. His religious education and training may be far superior to yours. In that case he is going to wonder how you can add anything to what he already knows. But he will be curious to learn why his own convictions have not worked and why yours seem to work so well. He may be an example of the truth that faith alone is insufficient. To be vital, faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice and unselfish, constructive action. Let him see that you are not there to instruct him in religion. Admit that he probably knows more about it than you do, but call to his attention the fact that however deep his faith and knowledge, he could not have applied it or he would not drink. Perhaps your story will help him see where he has failed to practice the very precepts he knows so well. We represent no particular faith or denomination. We are dealing only with general principles common to most denominations ..." (10) From The Family Afterward "... Alcoholics who have derided religious people will be helped by such contacts. Being possessed of a spiritual experience, the alcoholic will find he has much in common with these people, though he may differ with them on many matters. If he does not argue about religion, he will make new friends and is sure to find new avenues of usefulness and pleasure. He and his family can be a bright spot in such congregations. He may bring new hope and new courage to many a priest, minister, or rabbi, who gives his all to minister to our troubled world. We intend the foregoing as a helpful suggestion only. So far as we are concerned, there is nothing obligatory about it. As non-denominational people, we cannot make up others' minds for them. Each individual should consult his own conscience ..." ======== In just about every mention of "not religious" it seems that Bill's context was that AA is not affiliated with any specific religious denomination and matters of religion are solely up to each individual member to define for themselves -- Bill very definitely was not attempting to distance himself from religion. Two more citations that might be interesting concerning the Oxford Group and its influence on the principles embodied in the Steps. In a July 14, 1949 letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker Bill W wrote "So far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual wellspring at the beginning." In AA Comes of Age (pg 39) Bill also wrote: "Early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker their former leader in America and from nowhere else." Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5096. . . . . . . . . . . . Amen in the 7th step prayer From: tomikepete . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2008 12:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Given all the AA prayers, does anyone know why the 7th step prayer is the only one which ends with "amen" ? Peace IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5097. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Set A Side Prayer From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 11:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Another version of the prayer: Set Aside Prayer: "God please help me to set aside everything I know about myself, the twelve steps, this book, the meetings, my disease and you God, so I may have an open mind and a new experience with all of these things. Please let me see the truth." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5098. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2008 10:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The reference on the matter of Step 5 is in the Big Book chapter Into Action (pgs 73 and 74) and The Little Red Book refers the reader to those pages which state: "... We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live long or happily in this world. Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it. Though we have no religious connection, we may still do well to talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a person quick to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter people who do not understand alcoholics ..." To me the emphasis is on: "... Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step ..." I believe the Big Book guidance is that you "can" do Step 5 with someone outside of AA not that you "should or must" do it with someone outside of AA. I think over time this has primarily evolved into taking the Step 5 with one's sponsor. I personally know of several disasters that occurred from members not wisely picking someone outside of AA. There weren't any formal Steps in early AA's 6-Step program. It was all word of mouth and what got passed on varied quite a bit depending on who was doing the passing. That's one of the reasons why the Big Book was written. The Mid-West (re Dr Bob and Earl T) was far more influenced by the Oxford Group than the NY members. What Earl T describes in his story is part of the "Five C's" of the Oxford Group (Confession). It also seems that in the early days members were walked through the Steps rather quickly. While The Little Red Book is more explicit and direct in recommending a "clergyman or psychiatrist" that was the interpretation of the 12 Steps based on the viewpoint of the Nicolette Group in Minneapolis, MN not necessarily AA as a whole. I'd strongly recommend first doing the 5th Step with one's sponsor. When I first did it, it was with my sponsor and then I did it again with a Jesuit priest who was an AA member. The priest was my way of admitting it to God while receiving the Roman Catholic sacrament of Confession (today called Reconciliation). Cheers Arthur PS - while on my soapbox I think there is far too much emphasis in AA today on "Step procedure" and it is at the expense of "Step substance." Bill W gave us Steps "which are suggested as a program of recovery" -- they are not the same as Moses giving us Commandments. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5099. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2008 1:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII By Laurie Goodstein International Herald Tribune Friday, July 11, 2008 http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/11/america/prayer.php Generations of recovering alcoholics, soldiers, weary parents, exploited workers and just about anybody feeling beaten down by life have found solace in a short prayer that begins: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change." Now the Serenity Prayer is about to endure a controversy over its authorship that is likely to be anything but serene. For more than 70 years, the composer was thought to be the Protestant theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, one of modern Christianity's most towering figures. Niebuhr, who died in 1971, said he was quite sure he had written it, and his wife, Ursula, also a prominent theologian, dated its composition to the early 1940s. His daughter Elisabeth Sifton, a book editor and publisher, wrote a book about the prayer in 2003 in which she described her father first using it in 1943 in an "ordinary Sunday service" at a church in the Massachusetts town of Heath. Now, a law librarian at Yale, using new databases of archival documents, has found newspaper clippings and a book from as far back as 1936 that quote close versions of the prayer. The quotes are from civic leaders all over the United States and are always, interestingly, by women. Some refer to the prayer as if it were a proverb, while others appear to claim it as their own poetry. None of them attribute the prayer to a particular source. And they never mention Niebuhr. An article about the mystery of the prayer, by Fred Shapiro, associate library director and lecturer at Yale Law School, who edited "The Yale Book of Quotations," will be published next week in the Yale Alumni Magazine, an independent bimonthly publication. It will be followed by a rebuttal from Sifton. Shapiro said in an interview: "Reinhold Niebuhr was a very honest person who was very forthright and modest about his role in the Serenity Prayer. My interpretation would be that he probably unconsciously adapted it from something that he had heard or read." But Sifton faults Shapiro's approach as computer-driven and deprived of historical and theological context. In an interview, she said her father traveled widely in the 1930s, preaching in college chapels and to church groups and could have used the prayer then. She said she fixed the date of its composition to 1943 in her book, "The Serenity Prayer: Faith and Politics in Times of Peace and War," because she had relied on her parents' recollections. Sifton said the newly unearthed quotes were merely evidence that her father's preaching had a broad impact. And she took greatest umbrage at Shapiro's notion that the prayer was so simple that it could have been written by almost anyone in any era. "There is a kind of austerity and humility about this prayer," Sifton said, "that is very characteristic of him and was in striking contrast to the conventional sound of the American pastorate in the 1930s, who were by and large optimistic, affirmative, hopeful." The precise origins of the Serenity Prayer have always been wrapped in a fog. Even in Niebuhr's lifetime, his authorship was challenged. His response was typically modest. He was quoted in a magazine article in 1950 as saying: "Of course, it may have been spooking around for years, even centuries, but I don't think so. I honestly do believe that I wrote it myself." The version of events most often cited in biographies of Niebuhr is that after he used the prayer in a sermon in rural Massachusetts, an Episcopal priest asked for permission to print it in a booklet for the armed forces in 1944. Alcoholics Anonymous then embraced it, simplified some wording, changed the pronouns and circulated it as a motto for its 12-step program. Bartlett's Familiar Quotations attributed it to Niebuhr but gave the date as 1934, perhaps citing an erroneous reference in an article in the magazine of Alcoholics Anonymous, Shapiro said. But Ursula Niebuhr, who died in 1997, wrote in a memorandum (which an assistant for Shapiro saw in the Library of Congress) that her husband "may have used it in his prayers" by 1934, but "it certainly was not then in circulation." A Niebuhr biographer, Charles Brown, was surprised to hear of the early references. He said, "It is now well established beyond the shadow of any doubt among knowledgeable and fair-minded people that Niebuhr did compose it, probably in 1941 or '43." Brown said that perhaps Sifton's theory was correct and that the newspaper quotations were from people who heard Niebuhr speak the prayer years before he wrote it down. But, Shapiro argued, knowing that Niebuhr was so famous, why did none of the people who cited the prayer in the clippings also cite the theologian? The artifacts that Shapiro unearthed dismayed the Reverend Gary Dorrien, the Reinhold Niebuhr professor of social ethics at Union Theological Seminary in New York, which was Niebuhr's scholarly home for many years. Dorrien said, "What has the ring of truth to me is that some of the phrases in it, the gist of it, he heard or came into contact with in some way that he wouldn't have remembered, since he's not a scholarly, bookwormish person with habits of scholarly exactitude anyway." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5100. . . . . . . . . . . . Fr. Martin From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2008 6:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Front-Page Story from June 29, 2008 Baltimore Sun. His comeback was the worst-kept secret at Ashley. After a six-month absence, an ailing Father Joseph Martin returned recently to what has been called the Betty Ford Clinic of the East Coast - Father Martin's Ashley. Arriving in his wheelchair, he waited for the applause and standing ovation to yield before speaking to 80 patients at the addiction treatment center he co-founded near Havre de Grace. One more time, the 83-year-old priest spoke of the symptoms of sobriety - the ways patients know they are getting better. Recognizing that everyone is in pain. The return of one's self-esteem and humanity. No more living a lie. Father Martin spoke of his own drinking, his own "island of pain and self-hatred." He thanked everyone for their prayers. "I'm going to go home shortly now. That took all the steam out of me." This has been a milestone year for Joseph Martin. Together with his partner, Mae Abraham, they watch over the addiction center they opened 25 years ago this spring. More than 30,000 people have been treated there, including supermodel Niki Taylor, pro football player Thomas "Hollywood" Henderson, the late Michael Kennedy, the son of Robert F. Kennedy, and the late former White House aide Michael Deaver. Lynda Carter Altman, TV's former Wonder Woman and an Ashley alum herself, performed before 540 guests who paid $250 a seat to attend a silver anniversary gala last month. Father Martin marked his own milestone this month: It was 50 years ago that the young Baltimore priest entered treatment. He has congestive heart failure now and endures dialysis three times weekly. His blood pressure sinks dangerously low. Takes a week of energy to decide to belch, as Father Martin says. Public appearances are seldom. "I pray for him every day," says Mary Royals, 49, of Bethesda. "He has an immense amount of compassion because he is one of us. He gave people back their lives." In 2003, Royals, once a serious binge drinker, spent a month at Ashley, which is about the prettiest place for the ugly business of getting clean. Bald eagles, wild turkeys and osprey inhabit the grounds of the former estate of Sen. Millard Tydings of Maryland. While there's nothing idyllic about detoxification, a patient's road to recovery is paved with creature comforts at Ashley. "At Ashley, I found people who had been in situations similar to mine. The disease had no prejudices. It is a great equalizer, whether you are in the public eye or not," Deaver wrote in his book, Behind the Scenes. For $20,800 for 28 days, patients undergo a regiment of instruction, therapy, fellowship and something about having to get up at 6 in the morning. "This campus is routinely inspected by detection canines," says a sign in the lobby of the nonprofit. The only permitted "contraband" is candy. A media blackout is imposed; no cell phones, no BlackBerries, no TV - except during Super Bowls and World Series. Sixty percent of the patients are men, after all. Until a few years ago, Father Martin regularly visited and welcomed patients with his trademark: "The nightmare is over." He held court afternoons in the sunny dining room, as patients gathered around. To know Father Martin is to know his penguin joke: A police officer spots a drunk walking down the street with a penguin. Tells the man to take the penguin to the zoo where he belongs. The next day, the officer sees the same drunk walking the same penguin. Thought I told you to take him to the zoo. "I did," the drunk said. "He loved it. Today, we're going to the library." The joke, emblematic of Father Martin's disarming approach to addiction, is immortalized in Ashley's chapel, where a 1-inch figure of a penguin was inserted in one of the stained-glass panels. The penguin is part of a tour of Ashley, as are the hundreds of nametags stuck on the ceiling of a waterfront gazebo by patients on their last day at the facility. Along the fence line above the Chesapeake Bay, markers still remain for Molly and Bonnie, Father Martin's Labs that once escorted patients on walks and chronically retrieved balls. Adorning the walls of Ashley's rooms, portraits of Father Martin and Mae Abraham hang inseparably. Mae still speaks there every month, while Father Martin has stayed home. He watches the news, waits for her return, and steels himself against more dialysis. "I live tired," he says. But he's not alone. At the Abraham home At Mae Abraham's Havre de Grace home in early June, no one is enjoying the pool - too hot for that. Her manicured gardens feature plants just high enough, as she points out, to avoid the urinary wrath of the Labradors, which her 52-year-old son, Alex, field trains. The home was built out in the back to make a bedroom for Father Martin. A crucifix hangs over his crisply made bed, where a stuffed penguin hogs a pillow. In the family room, Father Martin sits in what must be his favorite chair. He's watching Fox News. I'm probably a McCain man, he says. Mae sits behind him on the couch and consults the man's biography, One Step Closer: The Life and Work of Father Joseph C. Martin. She knows their narrative by heart but the dates get fuzzy. In fact, it was 1958 when Father Martin was admitted to a treatment center. Ordained a decade earlier, he had discovered his taste for alcohol that same year during a Thanksgiving dinner with fellow priests. "There are people who have to acquire a taste for gin, but I didn't - I loved it immediately. I had two or three doubles that day," he said in his biography. His drinking escalated. "It never occurred to me that perhaps there was something odd about a priest walking toward a garbage dump in the middle of the afternoon carrying two suitcases filled with clanking bottles." It occurred to his superiors, who noticed Father Martin's careless teaching habits and troubling behavior. In 1956, he was admitted to a psychiatric ward of a California hospital. No one suspected alcoholism, so when Father Martin left the hospital appearing healthier and happy, he also returned to his double martinis and drinking shots of vodka from bottles he kept in his bathroom. By 1958, Joe Martin could no longer keep his drinking and behavior under control, much less a secret. The Archdiocese of Baltimore ordered him into treatment at Guest House, a Michigan treatment center for clergy. There, he was exposed to the tenants of Bill Wilson's Alcoholics Anonymous program. Wilson, a Wall Street businessman ruined by drink, had developed a 12-step, faith-based program that treated alcoholism as a disease and stressed staying sober and helping others achieve sobriety. Father Martin saved his notes from the lectures and conversations during his time at Guest House. He also got sober. In the 1960s, Father Martin distilled Wilson's 12 steps into literally a blackboard talk. He made the rounds of AA meetings with his direct, self-referencing lectures on addiction. The U.S. armed services, which had begun mandatory addiction training for servicemen, used Martin's 90-minute Chalk Talk on Alcohol, as did private businesses and rehab centers. Poorly lit and single-angled, the training films featured one bespectacled priest and one chalk board. "No singing or dancing," as the host says. (The films have gained a new audience on YouTube.) We alcoholics drink because we can't NOT drink. I must not make myself a part of the destruction of someone I love. Drug your conscience and see where your behavior goes. What are you worth? But why did he drink? "Oh, a thousand reasons," Father Martin says. "The point is I crossed the line until I could not NOT drink." Growing up in a Hampden rowhouse, the seven Martin children were exposed to drinking. Father Martin's 81-year-old brother, Edward Martin, says their father drank on Friday, payday. The rest of the week, James Martin, a machinist by trade, was fine, but Friday nights were not pleasant. Three of the four boys developed drinking problems. "They say children of an alcoholic get used to the idea of drinking," says Edward Martin, who lives in Georgia. He was spared the attraction. "I never had the money to buy the stuff." His older brother, Joseph, was clearly the popular one, winner of oratory contests at Loyola High School, the gift of gab. He grew up to be a devoted and enormously generous priest - with a quirk to his personality, his only living brother says. In a crowd, Joseph dominated the conversation with his humor, "as if he felt inadequate to socially bond with people or be comfortable in their presence unless he was entertaining them. He doesn't converse; he gives a humorous lecture." In 1964, Father Martin crossed paths with Lora Mae Abraham, a mother and housewife from Havre de Grace. Her drinking was out of control and threatened to upend her marriage to Tommy Abraham, the owner of a Greek restaurant in Aberdeen. Days after a lost weekend at Rehoboth Beach, Del., Abraham agreed to attend a lecture at the Johns Hopkins University. Former Iowa Gov. Harold Hughes was to talk about his alcoholism. Filling in for the governor, however, was a Catholic priest from Baltimore. Mae looked for the exit. Hello, I'm Joe Martin, and I'm an alcoholic. ... Then, the Catholic priest told her, a Southern Baptist, that she wasn't to blame for her drinking. That she wasn't evil. "He removed the shame from me," she says. "It changed my life forever on." A lifelong friendship and partnership were born. Mae took everyone she knew with a drinking problem to hear Father Martin's chalk talks. But despite his sobriety and popularity, he was suffering another crisis by the end of the 1960s. Assigned to St. Mary's Seminary on Paca Street, Father Martin no longer had any assignments or classes, nothing to do anymore. He felt useless. He stayed in his darkened bedroom and became increasingly reclusive and depressed. He turned to Mae. "I'm 45 years old, and all I have to show for my life is the blackboard talk," he told her on the phone in 1970. They had all become close friends - Father Martin, Mae, her son, Alex, then 14, and Tommy - Father Martin especially liked the babaghanouj Tommy made at his restaurant. So, it wasn't unusual when Tommy and Mae asked Father Martin if he would like to come out to their home in the country and spend a few days resting. That was 38 years ago. "He's the man who came to dinner, and he's still eating," she says. He moved in with his German shepherd, Casey. Mae and the dog did not get along, so she sent both dog and priest to canine-training class. That got Father Martin driving and out of the house again. Next, her house guest needed, well, a job. Father Martin went to work for the state of Maryland's new Division of Alcoholism Control. Mae suggested that he also travel the country to give his chalk talks. They started their own production company, Kelly Productions, which offered nearly 40 Father Martin film titles. (In 2007, Mae and Father Martin sold the rights to his books and films.) In 1978, Mae suggested they open a treatment center. "You're going to die, and everything you have done will die with you," she told him. After an initial $1 million grant, it would take another seven years to raise enough money to open Ashley - named for Mae's father, the Rev. Arthur Ashley. In 1983, the 22-bed facility opened on Oakington Farm, the former estate of Millard Tydings, a native son of Havre de Grace and U.S. senator from Maryland. Six staff members hovered and fussed over all five patients. Expenses were paid from the film profits. And over much time, Ashley built a national reputation as it grew donation by donation, building by building. Father Martin became a celebrity - his picture was taken with former first ladies Betty Ford and Nancy Reagan. In 1993, he was invited to the Vatican. Father Martin, then 65, helped celebrate Mass with Pope John Paul II. "The most profound experience of my life," he says. Before he left, the priest from Harford County handed the pontiff a brochure from Ashley. Retirement years In retirement, Mae Abraham has become Father Martin's caretaker. On days when his blood pressure plummets, she props his feet up and feeds him broth and monitors his numbers. In January, he was near death in an area hospital. Last rites were given. Mae rushed to the hospital and insisted he be placed on a respirator. There had been confusion about his living will, she said. One recent afternoon, Mae, who has been sober 45 years, steps outside to give a tour of her garden, but needs to get back inside. She doesn't like to leave Father alone (she has never called him Joseph). At night, her son, Alex, helps Father Martin into bed and wonders if he'll still be with them in the morning. You just don't know on those dialysis days, Mae says. "He's afraid of leaving this place," she says. "But I told him I made him a promise a long time ago. As long as I'm alive, you'll be here." In the family room, Father Martin turns the sound down to Fox News. As a Sun photographer takes pictures, he whispers, "You can use some of these pictures to keep the mice out of the basement." One of the black Labs lopes over with a toy in his mouth. Just like the Labs years ago at Ashley. "Like everything, I miss it." No blackboard lecture, just a tired and sick man whose simple and smart words helped a lot of sick people while giving him something very much to do with his life. "Mae and I know what we've done. We stand before God with it," says Joseph Martin of Father Martin's Ashley. "And if they mess it up and don't keep our philosophy," Mae Abraham adds, "we'll come back and haunt the hell out of them." They aren't kidding. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5101. . . . . . . . . . . . 400+ AA History & Oldtimer CDs & DVDs From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2008 6:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII www.justloveaudio.com has just added over 400 AA History and Oldtimer CDs and DVDs to our store. Many of these Oldtimers came to AA in the 1930s and 1940s. To see the CD list: 1-Please go to http://justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa 2-The "Type" field is a drop down screen, pick "History/Oldtimers" 3-After choosing "History/Oldtimers", click "Search" 4-Scroll down to see the full list of Oldtimer and AA History CDs available We also have AA History DVDs in our recovery bookstore at http://justloveaudio.com/book_store.php?cat_id=2 Thank you for allowing us to be of service & God bless. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5102. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/7/2008 6:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Is it recorded anywhere when, where and with whom Dr Bob took the fifth step? "Pass It On" recounts that the morning of his last drink, after Bill gave him "one 'goofball' and a single bottle of beer, to curb the shakes" Bob set off to perform a surgical procedure. Hours later he returned home, having driven around to his creditors and others to make amends. So it seems he did not take the fifth step after his last drink; did he take the first five steps with Bill in the previous few weeks, while Bill was lodging with him? Also, how many fifth steps did Bill take? AA literature relates two occasions: in his story in the Big Book Bill wrote, "(After leaving hospital) my schoolmate (Ebby) visited me, and I fully acquainted him with my problems and deficiencies. We made a list of people I had hurt or toward whom I felt resentment. I expressed my entire willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong (steps four through nine)." Then, "Pass It On" records of Bill's first meeting with Fr Ed Dowling, "That evening, Father Ed began sharing with Bill an understanding of the spiritual life that then and ever after seemed to speak to Bill's condition (interesting Quaker phrase! - see George Fox, "There is one, even Christ Jesus, who can speak to thy condition"). Bill, author of the Fifth Step, would later characterize that evening as the night he took his Fifth Step... he unburdened himself of his commissions and omissions, all of which had lain heavily on his mind, and of which he had found, until then, no way to speak...." (Surely that was a Step Ten?) - - - - From: "terry walton" (twalton at 3gcinc.com) We have many examples in the Big Book of people outside of AA "hearing our story" or 5th steps. The first is Bill in his own words: BB pg 13:3 "My schoolmate visited me, and I fully acquainted him with my problems and deficiencies." We also know this done again in AA Comes of Age when Bill meets Father Ed Dowling. Both men outside of AA. In the book Alcoholics Anonymous it suggests using the properly appointed people. The list of "proper people" suggested is: page 74:0 1. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it. 2. Though we have no religious connection, we may still do well to talk with someone ordained by an established religion. 3. Perhaps our doctor or 4. or psychologist will be the person. 5. It may be one of our own family 6. we cannot disclose anything to our wives or our parents which will hurt them and make them unhappy. (this is saying a family member or wife is a good candidate as long as what is shared is not at their expense) The directions for "whom" is to hear this pretty clear: Notwithstanding the great necessity for discussing ourselves with someone, it may be one is so situated that there is no suitable person available. If that is so, this step may be postponed, only, however, if we hold ourselves in complete readiness to go through with it at the first opportunity. We say this because we are very anxious that we talk to the right person. It is important that he be able to keep a confidence; that he fully understand and approve what we are driving at; A priest, minister, rabbi, which their duty is to receive this, under the protection of the right of confession these conversations are protected by Church law. A doctor or psychologist or attorney all are good suggestions for the same reason, client confidentiality. I find it petty convincing the men that wrote this, expected a man or woman to use a religious person "whose duty it is to receive it. since it is suggested not once, but twice. And backed up again shortly with the 11th step suggestion of "make use of what they offer". Terry Walton - - - - From: Tommy Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) We have Earl Treat's story of doing the early steps in his story "He Sold Himself Short."The specific passage is on p. 292 in the Third Edition and p. 263 in the current edition.Technically, though, this wasn't a Fifth Step as the program had only six steps at the time.He did it with Dr. Bob. No mention is made of going through the steps with someone outside the program. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5103. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book concordance index history? From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2008 9:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am in Dallas for a while and attending a group which is studying the book using the big book study guide by the primary purpose group of Dallas. (available online also) Is there a concordance index of all the history things in the book as they happen chapter by chapter and line by line? Example today we are doing the Dr.s Opinion and at the end they were wondering who the two men were mentioned at the end of that chapter. I should know but need to look them up. Have all the historical references been listed line by line paragraph by paragraph?? LD P sober 13 years since june 15 1995 editor aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5104. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Amen in the 7th step prayer From: grault . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2008 10:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Or why the 7th Step prayer speaks to God in terms of "you" and "your" but the 3d Step prayer speaks in terms of "Thee" and "Thy"? - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "tomikepete" wrote: > > Given all the AA prayers, does anyone know > why the 7th step prayer is the only one which > ends with "amen" ? > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5105. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2008 8:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The article appears to be very incomplete. What article (at least one or two) and what book did Shapiro find. Seems that there should be the ability to verify the sources one way or the other and provide additional background as to who, what and where. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5106. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer article by Fred Shapiro and response by Niebuhr''s daughter From: jblair101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2008 3:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As a follow-up to the Serenity Prayer news column posted yesterday, here are two links of interest: "Who wrote the Serenity Prayer?" by Fred R. Shapiro, Yale University http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2008_07/serenity.html "It takes a master to make a masterpiece" by Elisabeth Sifton (Niebuhr's daughter responds.) http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2008_07/serenity.html#sifton John IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5107. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2008 7:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I wonder when Shapiro discovered this, particularly in view of the fact that posts from this list (see mine of Dec 6, 2007) do come up on Google searches. Facts are facts, but I think his interpretation of the evidence may go a little too far. Comments interspersed: > > > > By Laurie Goodstein > International Herald Tribune > > Friday, July 11, 2008 > http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/11/america/prayer.php > > For more than 70 years, the composer was thought to be the Protestant > theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, one of modern Christianity's most > towering figures. Niebuhr, who died in 1971, said he was quite sure he > had written it, and his wife, Ursula, also a prominent theologian, > dated its composition to the early 1940s. Niebuhr did not say he was "quite sure" he had written it. His daughter is the one who is emphatically sure of everything including exact dates. When the editor of a Lutheran publication asked Niebuhr to comment on doubts as to his authorship, Niebuhr pointed out that great minds of the past, including Socrates and even Jesus, had made use of older material (he went on at some length) but that he did think he had written the prayer in its present form. In other words he seemed to be hedging a bit. Niebuhr's father was a minister who immigrated from Germany as a young man. If Niebuhr translated something he had heard only from his father and only in German, his recollection that he wrote it himself would be reasonable or at least understandable. > > Some refer to the prayer as if it were a proverb, while others appear > to claim it as their own poetry. None of them attribute the prayer to > a particular source. And they never mention Niebuhr. > > Brown said that perhaps Sifton's theory was correct and that the > newspaper quotations were from people who heard Niebuhr speak the > prayer years before he wrote it down. > > But, Shapiro argued, knowing that Niebuhr was so famous, why did none > of the people who cited the prayer in the clippings also cite the > theologian? This point seems weak to me. Of course, I haven't seen the original article, but I strongly suspect that his 1936 example of the prayer is the same 1936 one that I have seen. It is nothing but a caption to a photograph of Mildred Pinkerton, the Executive Secretary of the Syracuse YWCA, and says "Quotes the prayer, 'God grant us the courage to change what must be changed, the serenity to accept what cannot be changed, and the insight to tell one from the other.'" and that her remarks were delivered at the annual meeting of the YWCA. The reporter was only writing a caption for a photo, so it is impossible to know whether the speaker mentioned an author. The other 2 examples I saw were not quite as brief, but in general I think it is hard to conclude anything from the fact that Niebuhr's name is NOT mentioned in association with the prayer until after 1943, because it often depends on what a reporter feels is important, and Niebuhr was not so famous that a random reporter would necessarily have known about him. The article seems like a tempest in a teapot. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5108. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 400+ AA History & Oldtimer CDs & DVDs From: sobrietytalks . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2008 3:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is also a great collection of historical Alcoholics Anonymous talks at www.sobrietytalks.com There's a specific category for AA HISTORY RELATED TALKS & RECORDINGS MADE PRIOR TO 1970. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5109. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom Uzzell''s Pay? From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2008 9:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have seen references on the Web to the fact that Tom Uzzell was paid either $375 or $380 to do the editing of the Big Book. Can anyone supply me with an original source for this piece of information - or is it just another one of the unsubstantiated "facts" about AA that float around the Internet? Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5110. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2008 9:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Laurie and Terry With all due respect, you are advocating revisionist speculation not AA history. AAHistoryLovers is supposed to focus on fact-based information as opposed to editorial-based imagination. Bill W sobered up in December 1934. Dr Bob sobered up in June 1935. The 12 Steps were first drafted in December 1938. When Bill W sobered up there was no such thing even remotely approaching the notion of doing the equivalent of a "5th Step" with "people outside of AA." There was no AA. The "schoolmate" who visited Bill in the hospital was Ebby T. Bill considered him to be his sponsor throughout his life (even though Ebby had his difficulties staying sober). The idea of alluding to Ebby as "people outside AA" is absurd. Bill W met Father Dowling in December 1940 at the 24th St Club in NY City. He reputedly was Bill W's "spiritual sponsor" throughout his life. Although he was not an alcoholic, to portray Fr Dowling as "people outside AA" is also absurd. He started AA in St Louis, MO. When Dr Bob had his last drink there was no such thing as "Steps." Both of you seem to be attempting to retrofit what exists today to something that didn't exist back then. Dr Bob joined the Oxford Group in 1933. This was approximately two years before he met Bill W. During the first few years of its existence, the AA Fellowship was affiliated with the Oxford Group in both NY and Akron. Core Oxford Group principles consisted of the "Four Absolutes" of honesty, unselfishness, purity and love - the "Five C's" (confidence, confession, conviction, conversion and continuance) and the "Five Procedures" (1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God's direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitution and 5. Sharing for witness and confession). Dr Bob would certainly not have been a stranger to practicing the principle of "Confession." Henrietta Sieberling organized an OG meeting at the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams in Akron specifically to help Dr Bob with his drinking. Dr Bob confessed openly about his drinking but could not stop. The OG never had anything that they called or considered to be Steps. The idea and evolution of Steps derived in the latter 1930s from what was called the "alcoholic squads" of the OG in Akron and NY. It initially took the form of a word-of-mouth 6-Step program. Various versions of the 6 Steps can be found in (1) Earl T's Big Book Story "He Sold Himself Short" pg 263 4th edition (2) "AA Comes of Age" pg 160 and "Pass It On" pg 197 and (3) a July 1953 Grapevine Article titled "A Fragment of History" which can also be found in "The Language of the Heart" pg 200. In various forms, up to December 1938, the equivalent of what later became Steps 5 and 10 were stated as either: (1) "Confession" or (2) "We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence" or (3) "We got honest with another person, in confidence." There was no "admitted to God" and "to ourselves." It may sound like AA heresy, but the Big Book is not the be-all and end-all on the Steps. When Bill W wrote the bulk of the Big Book basic text in 1938 he was in his fourth year of sobriety, there were approximately 100 members and there were two groups. When Bill wrote the 12&12 in 1953 he was in his 19th year of sobriety, there were approximately 6,000 groups and 128,000 members. That's a great deal of accumulated experience over time. In the 12&12, on the 5th Step, Bill W suggests: "Our next problem will be to discover the person in whom we are to confide. Here we ought to take much care, remembering that prudence is a virtue which carries a high rating. Perhaps we shall need to share with this person facts about ourselves which no others ought to know. We shall want to speak with someone who is experienced, who not only has stayed dry but has been able to surmount other serious difficulties. Difficulties, perhaps, like our own. This person may turn out to be one's sponsor, but not necessarily so. If you have developed a high confidence in him, and his temperament and problems are close to your own, then such a choice will be good. Besides, your sponsor already has the advantage of knowing something about your case." Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5111. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book concordance index history? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 11:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe the second full paragraph pertains to Hank Parkhurst who would have been two years plus sober at the time the Doctor's Opinion article was written. The Third full paragraph is about Fitz Mayo who sobered up at nearly the same time as Hank. Bob S. - - - - From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diazeztone Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:56 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book concordance index history? Example today we are doing the Dr.s Opinion and at the end they were wondering who the two men were mentioned at the end of that chapter. I should know but need to look them up. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5112. . . . . . . . . . . . Anniversary of the Oxford Group June 27 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 12:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John Barleycorn (yakstark at msn.com) http://hindsfoot.org/barruth.html http://hindsfoot.org/barright.html http://hindsfoot.org/barmole.html The Apology That Launched a Million Amends June 27th, 2008, will mark the 100th anniversary of Frank Buchman's Spiritual Awakening – one that directly linked him to the cofounders of AA He gave everything he had to establishing a shelter for homeless boys in the slums of Philadelphia. The shelters success surpassed his budget and the six-member board of directors insisted that he cut the amount of food being given to his charges. He quit instead of cutting back. Resentment consumed him. His family despaired that he might not come to his senses. His work was destroyed by what he saw as the shortsightedness of others. His health was well past the breaking point. 'Everywhere I went, I took me with me,' he later said. During a trip to recuperate in Europe, he exhausted the funds his father gave him and existed on the kindness of his family and the generosity of acquaintances. Tired and dejected he went to an Evangelical Conference in Keswick, England, hoping to connect with F.B. Meyer, a famous minister he knew, for spiritual help. Meyer was not in attendance; another plan gone awry. June 27, 1908, thirty year-old Frank Buchman, a Pennsylvanian Lutheran minister, walked into an afternoon service with 17 other people to hear Jessie Penn Lewis preach on the cross of Christ. And then it happened. As Buchman sat in that Chapel, 'There was a moment of spiritual peak of what God could do for me. I was made a new man. My hatred was gone ... I knew I had to write six letters to those men I hated.' 'I am writing,' declared Buchman, 'to tell you that I have harbored an unkind feeling toward you -- at times I conquered it but it always came back. Our views may differ but as brothers we must love. I write to ask your forgiveness and to assure that I love you and trust by God's grace I shall never more speak unkindly or disparagingly of you.' Those letters of amends spawned a revolution in Frank Buchman, a revolution that led to the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous. That evening, Frank was introduced to a young Cambridge man, who upon hearing Buchman's tale of moral regeneration made a decision to change his own life. As Buchman described it, 'This was the first fellow who I knew that I had ever brought face to face with that central experience.' For the next half century Buchman dedicated his life to demonstrating that an experience of God was available to anyone at any time, regardless of race, religion, class or nationality. From England, Frank returned to the United States where he went to work as the YMCA director at Penn State University. There he had a profound effect on campus life, due in part to the conversion of the campus bootlegger, who during a trip to Toronto with Frank and a group of students from Penn State, made a decision to change his life. After having Frank help him by writing an amends letter to his wife, the bootlegger never drank again and went around the world with Frank talking about his change. Frank Buchman described the four years that he spent at Penn State as the laboratory in which he developed a practical program of action and learned how to have honest conversations that led people to make decisions to change their lives. The formula he developed was: 1. The sharing of our sins and temptations with another Christian life given to God, and to use sharing as witness to help others, still unchanged, to recognize and acknowledge their sins. 2. Surrender of our life, past, present, and future, into God's keeping and direction. 3. Restitution to all whom we have wronged directly or indirectly. 4. Listening to, accepting, relying on God's guidance and carrying it out in everything we do or say, great or small. Sound familiar? The application of this course of action revolutionized the spiritual life of the campus, and its success brought Christian evangelists from all over the world to find out what was happening on a backwater campus that had been paralyzed by strife. After Penn State, Frank went to China in 1917 where an honest conversation with a young Sam Shoemaker helped Sam to tell him, 'I have been a pious fraud, pretending to serve God but actually keeping all the trump cards in my own hands. Now I've told Him how sorry I am, and I trust you'll forgive me for harboring ill will against you. This sprang up the moment you used that word sin!' Buchman said that he freely forgave him. 'Now what's the next step?' Shoemaker asked. The next step was making amends to Sam's Bible study class. The trouble was, Shoemaker told his Chinese students, he disliked China. That admission produced such a profound spiritual experience in Shoemaker that it led to his working closely with Buchman for the next twenty-one years and brought the revolution of 'First Century Christianity' (later known as the Oxford Group) to people worldwide. The message of personal revolution was transmitted by one 'informed Christian' sharing with another and by inviting people to 'house parties.' If you have ever attended an AA convention or round up you have experienced an Oxford Group house party. Speakers were brought in from a variety of places to share their experience, strength and hope in both large speaker meetings and small special interest meetings. Men would tell their stories in men's meetings; women in women's; there were even forums for drug addicts, overeaters, and drunks. At these gatherings, both speakers and experienced members would be available for 'personal interviews' where sharing and surrender could take place. Then people would be encouraged to make restitution and have a daily 'quiet time' to receive inspiration on how to conduct their lives. When he was pressed for a definition of sin, Buchman said, 'What is a sin for one person may not be a sin for another. The true definition of sin is that it is something that separates you from God or from your fellows.' In 1922, Jim Newton, a young salesman with a taste for fast living, followed a group of attractive young women into a hotel ballroom thinking they were going to a dance. To his dismay he found himself in an Oxford Group house party at the Toy Town Tavern in Winchengton, Massachusetts, where he heard a message that changed his life. Buchman referred Newton to Shoemaker who helped Newton take stock of his life, surrender, make restitution, and start to live a 'guided life.' If you wish to know the Oxford Group technique of guidance read pages 85-87 in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. A few years later, Jim Newton was trying to help Bud F., the alcoholic son of his employer, Harvey F., to change. Unable to help his friend, Jim introduced Bud to his mentor, Samuel Shoemaker. Sam, who had a remarkable gift bringing people to make a decision, went through the process with Bud who immediately lost his obsession to drink, made amends to his father and wife, and returned to the good graces of his family. Harvey F. was so impressed with the change in his son that he convinced his fellow industri- alists in Akron, Ohio, to help underwrite an Oxford Group house party held in January 1933 at the Mayflower Hotel. Buchman and his team were welcomed by the Rev. Walter Tunks, a close friend of the F. family; also in attendance were Henrietta Seiberling and T. Henry and Clarace Williams who were to become the founders of the West Hills meeting of the Oxford Group in Akron. Also in 1933, Shoemaker's ministry at Calvary Church in New York City's Gramercy Park was a hub of Oxford Group activity. There were Oxford Group meetings held three times a week at Calvary Church where people shared the life changes they had discovered from applying the Oxford Group principles. He also founded the Calvary Mission, which was a hostel for indigent alcoholic men. Many important families had ties to this Calvary Church, among them the H. family whose eldest son Rowland was described by Bill W. as 'a business man who had ability, good sense and high character ... who had floundered from one sanitarium to another.' Rowland had returned from Europe after another attempt to get his life in order after consult- ing with Dr. Carl Jung. Rowland was drinking and going to Oxford Group meetings at Calvary Church. Among the people whom he met at Calvary was Vic Kitchen, author of I Was a Pagan (published in 1934), which described his release from alcoholism, drug addiction, and 'anything that gave me pleasure, power or applause' in the Oxford Group. While on a business trip to Detroit, Rowland read the book, identified at depth, and as Shoemaker said, 'had a change right there on the train.' Rowland stopped drinking, reconciled with his family, made restitution for questionable business dealings, became active with the Oxford Group businessmen' s team, spoke at meetings and encouraged others to find what he had found. One of the many people Rowland touched was an old childhood friend, Edwin 'Ebby' T., who was about to be locked up as a chronic inebriate. Rowland, whose alcohol problem was well known, convinced the judge to release Ebby into his care. Two weeks later, Ebby was speaking at Oxford Group meetings around Vermont, and after a couple of weeks with Rowland (who had all of six months in the group), the freshly sober Ebby moved into Calvary Mission in New York City and became active there. Sober six weeks, Ebby was inspired to find another old school friend, Bill W., who was known to be in awful shape. Bill could not get the change in Ebby out of his mind for he knew his friend was a hopeless drunk like himself, yet was sober. A few days after that, Bill went to see Ebby at the Calvary Mission, gave an impassioned, albeit drunken testimony from the podium and soon after landed in Townes Hospital. Ebby visited him there and reacquainted Bill with the steps of the Oxford Group whereupon Bill had his profound white light experience, lost his compulsion to drink and was seized with a desire to pass on his experience to others. When Bill was released, he and Lois immediately started attending Oxford Group meetings at Calvary Church and had frequent contact with Sam Shoemaker. Lois said that they went to a minimum of three meetings a week and attended house parties during the first three years of Bill's sobriety. Six months after sobering up, Bill went to Akron, Ohio, on a business venture that failed. When he found himself about to enter the bar at the same Mayflower Hotel where the Oxford Group had met, he started searching for an to help. That moment of desperation led him to the Rev. Walter Tunks and ultimately to Henrietta Seiberling who knew just the man. A local proctologist, who thought he was a closet drinker, had been attending the West Hill Oxford Group meeting for two years with his wife, his problem becoming progressively worse. The Doctor later described his impression of the West Hills Group, 'I was thrown in with a crowd of people .... I sensed that they had something I did not have, from which I might readily profit. I learned that it was something of a spiritual nature, which did not appeal to me very much, but I thought it could do no harm.' Bill W. met with Bob S. (lovingly referred to as Dr. Bob) on Mother's Day 1935. Bob stopped drinking abruptly. Though he accepted Bill's description of alcoholism as a fatal illness and the Oxford Group steps as the solution, Bob believed that making restitution to those he had harmed would destroy his practice and put his family further at risk. A short time later, Bob drank again and was completely demoralized. On the way to perform a surgery, Bill steadied his friend's hand with a bottle of beer and a 'goofball.' Before entering the hospital, Bob told Bill, 'I am going to go through with it.' That afternoon Bob did not return home. His wife, Anne, and Bill were filled with dread that Bob had gone on another binge. When Dr. Bob returned late that night, he told his frightened loved ones that he had been making restitution to people to whom he had been too afraid to admit his alcoholism. Bob S. never took another drink. AA's anniversary is not the day Bill W. stopped drinking, nor the day that he met Dr. Bob, but the day that Bob stopped drinking and made his amends. From 100 years ago in Keswick, to 73 years ago in Akron, to this very moment; women and men are proving the validity of their own personal spiritual awakening by making amends for their past wrongs, making restitution and rectifying their errors. Frank Buchman's metamorphosis was remarkable. He developed a program for personal change that affected homes and nations. It is a practical program of action using the four standards of absolute honesty, purity, unselfishness and love. Over the past one hundred years, Buchman's vision has been transmitted under different names: First Century Christian Movement, the Oxford Group, Moral Re-Armament, and since 2001, Initiatives of Change, which continues to heal the wounds of history by building trust across the world's divides. Without Frank Buchman, those of us in today's many anonymous programs would have no 12 steps and no freedom from bondage. His spiritual awakening and the action that followed indeed launched a million amends and produced many millions of transformed lives. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5113. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book concordance index history? From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 1:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please go to: http://justloveaudio.com/resources.php?cat_id=4 & click on "Big Book Name and Date References." http://justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Reference s.pd\ f [18] Also, Cliff B. & the Primary Purpose Group in Dallas is already aware of this resource. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5114. . . . . . . . . . . . Ignatia''s birthplace PHOTOS From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2008 12:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII PHOTOS: http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html This morning, I stood in the ruins of the birthplace of Sr Ignatia in the company of my old AA buddy Murdy O'B whose detective work over the past year has been extraordinary to say the least. We have always felt there was something erroneous in regards Shanvalley, Ballyheane being given as her birthplace. Firstly all family records were in the church in Castlebar and yet there was a church in Ballyheane. Secondly there were no folk memories of the family and folk memories go back a long, long time in Ireland. Thirdly, with such large Irish families there had to be some family connection left behind. So many a night on our way to and from meetings we discussed it and last year Murdy spotted a death notice in the paper one day which stated Shanvalley, Burren and the name of the deceased was a member of the Neary family and Ignatia's mother was Barbara Neary. The registering church for Shanvalley, Burren is Castlebar and the pieces began to fall into place. Murdy took a trip up to Shanvalley and it's a townland populated by Neary's and he was shown what is known to this day as Gavin's Field and the ruins of the house still standing there. The extended Neary family still live there and one member in her 80's shared many a memory. It was a strange feeling standing there this morning after an AA meeting and gazing around imagining what it was like at the end of the 1800's. The boreen to the houses there was only paved in the 1980's and along with the ruins of Gavin's house stand the ruins of many more bearing witness to the emigration which was a fact of life here in the west of Ireland for so long. Fiona (fionadodd at eircom.net) PHOTOS: http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5115. . . . . . . . . . . . Publication dates of AA pamphlets current and obsolete From: JOHN WIKELIUS . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/14/2008 10:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am seeking information regardng the date when the original pamphlet was published, in the case of the standard AA published pamphlets. Some of my older pamphlets do not have a date of origination. I am putting together a display of AA pamphlets and showing the changes over the years. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5116. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 7:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss wrote: > > The article appears to be very incomplete. > What article (at least one or two) and what > book did Shapiro find. Seems that there > should be the ability to verify the sources > one way or the other and provide additional > background as to who, what and where. > > Jim > Here is what I have--he seems to have the same ones although possibly additional ones as well. The book he mentions I have not seen. Syracuse (New York) Herald, January 16, 1936: "We need new faith in our highest ideals," says Mildred Pinkerton, executive secretary of the Syracuse YWCA. She calls attention to new determinations, new interests in her annual report just submitted. Quotes the prayer--"Oh God, give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to accept what cannot be helped, and insight to know the one from the other." (This is the caption to a photo. The present director of the Syracuse YWCA was able to find the written record of this annual report for me, but Ms. Pinkerton's remarks are not recorded in it.) Ada (Oklahoma) Evening News, February 19, 1939: Mrs. Edyth Thomas Wallace, home counselor of Oklahoma City's public schools, spoke at a P.T.A. meeting: . . .The prayer, said the speaker, of both parents should be "Oh God , give me serenity to accept that which cannot be changed, give me courage to change that which can be changed and wisdom to tell the one from the other." Lowell (Massachusetts) Sun, April 16, 1940: At a women's club meeting a speaker, Mrs. Hildreth, ended her remarks with this statement, "God give me serenity to accept things I cannot change; the courage to change those I can; and the wisdom to know the difference." Valley Star-Monitor Herald, Brownsville, Texas, August 17, 1941:In a talk at a women's club meeting summarizing the 29th annual Farmer's Comprehensive Short Course, a poem said to have been by Miss Mildred Horton, state home demonstration agent, was repeated: "God, give me the courage to change/ What must be altered;/ Serenity to accept/ What cannot be helped/ And insight to determine/ One from the other." Indiana (Pennsylvania) Evening Gazette, December 5, 1941: Rose Cologne, visiting professor at Pennsylvania State College, ended a talk with a recommendation that college people try to develop "courage to change that which can be changed, serenity to face that which cannot be changed, and insight to tell one from the other." Hillsboro (Ohio) Press Gazette, April 24, 1942, in a Sunday School column: "Oh God, give me serenity to accept what cannot be changed, the courage to change what can be changed; and the wisdom to know one form the other." These are from actual photographic copies of the papers--I don't see how there could be any mistake or trickery involved. OTOH, nothing has really changed about the history of the prayer, in view of the fact that one biographer is already on record saying that Niebuhr wrote the prayer in 1934. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5117. . . . . . . . . . . . Which printings of the 1st edition BB had red covers? From: shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 11:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In this post it mentions that only the 1st ed 1st printing has a red cover. On e-bay currently there is a book for sale that says it has a red cover. Does anyone know if there were some red covers in this 2nd printing or if the book was rebound? It also has gold lettering on the book and the spine??? Shakey Mike Gwirtz Philadelphia, Pennsylvania going to National Archives Conv in Niagara Falls NY - - - - > Message 2258 from Jim Blair > (jblair at videotron.ca) > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2258 > > Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings. > > The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition > > 1st Edition - 1st Printing > - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN." > - 29 personal stories. > - Price 3.50$. > - Cover is red, only printing in red. > - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted. > - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number. > - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'. > - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman). > - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast. > - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27. > - Published by Works Publishing Company. > > 1st Edition - 2nd Printing > - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." > - 28 personal stories > - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue. > - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine. > - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399. > - Jacket spine and front flap has print number. > - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman) > - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72. > - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us. > - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons. > - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People > - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening. > - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those. > - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500. > - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated. > - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand." > - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399. > > 1st Edition - 3rd Printing > - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." > - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16. > - Cover changed to light blue. > - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16. > - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us. > - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men. > - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years. > - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years. > - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears. > - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000. > - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters. > - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold. > - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43. > - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25. > - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000. > - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000. > - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally. > > 1st Edition - 4th Printing > - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." > - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue. > - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658. > - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A." > - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women. > - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II." > - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago. > - P152-L02, have been there to has been there. > - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing. > - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual. > - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44. > - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc. > - P398-L10, organized to originally organized. > - P398-L10, members to older members > - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock. > - P398-L16, this book, to this book. > - P398-L16, send money to please send money. > > 1st Edition - 5th Printing > - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women." > - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy. > - Last Big Book in size. > - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7). > - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities." > - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold. > - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45. > - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years. > > 1st Edition - 6th Printing > - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." > - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today). > - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch. > - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17). > - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A. > - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A. > - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17). > > 1st Edition - 7th Printing > - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." > - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches. > - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice. > - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc. > - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934. > - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted. > - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years. > - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities." > - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted. > - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937 > - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago. > - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years. > - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years. > - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable. > - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year. > - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees. > > 1st Edition - 8th Printing > - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN." > - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch. > - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice. > > 1st Edition - 9th Printing > - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." > - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches. > - P323-L20, Two years to several years. > > 1st Edition - 10th Printing > - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." > - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations. > > 1st Edition - 11th Printing > - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." > - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches. > - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker. > - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker. > - P178-L20, Him to HIM. > - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker. > - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding > - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker. > > 1st Edition - 12th Printing > - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." > - Decreased height by 1/16. > > 1st Edition - 13th Printing > - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." > - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 . > > 1st Edition - 14th Printing > - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." > - Reduced in thickness 1/16. > > 1st Edition - 15th Printing > - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." > - Increased in height by 1/16. > - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC. > > 1st Edition - 16th Printing > - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN." > - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16. > > Last printing of the First Edition. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5118. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fifth steps in early AA From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 6:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I hope to shed light rather than generate heat. Terry can speak for himself but I do not "advocate revisionist speculation"; I was merely asking a question, and I'm glad the moderator took a less censorious view than Art. There is a certain amount of geriatric egg-sucking going on here. Many of us have studied the sources, both AA and non-AA, e.g., Not God (Kurtz), Frank Buchman (Lean), Getting Better (Robertson), Changed by Grace (Chesnut), Bill W (Thomsen), Bill W (Hartigan), Twice Born Men, More Twice Born Men, Broken Earthenware (Begbie), New Wine (Mel B), By the power of God (Dick B), Sister Ignatia (Darrah), as well as Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, Pass It On, Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers, Grapevine digital archive etc., etc. Form criticism and hermeneutics are vital to a fully informed understanding of the text, but in the old saying, why look in the crystal ball when you can read the book? The Big Book says "Here are the Steps WE took which are suggested as a program of recovery (emphasis added)." Now, does that or does that not include Dr Bob and Bill W. and the rest of the "first 100"? If we are to believe Art's convoluted caveats the Book should say, "We did not take these steps exactly as they are written here but this is how we recommend them to you." But of course it says no such thing. The early AA's clearly believed they had taken the steps in the way they passed them on to the rest of us - either that or they were being dishonest. Bill wrote (of the original six steps): "... our literature would have to be as clear and comprehensive as possible. Our steps would have to be more explicit. There must be not be a single loophole through which a rationalising alcoholic could wiggle out... Thus we could better get the distant reader over a barrel, and at the same time we might be able to broaden and deepen the spiritual implications of our whole presentation..." The following pages in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age record the struggles of the early fellowship in finally agreeing the 12 Steps. And even at the end of the process there were dissenters, viz: "For a while it looked as if we would bog down into permanent disagreement. Despairing of satisfying everyone, I finally asked that I might be the final judge of what the book said. Seeing that we would get nowhere without such a point of decision, MOST of the group agreed..." (again, emphasis added). Is it anywhere recorded that Dr Bob did not agree with the 12 Steps as they were finally agreed? If he concurred then he most surely took Step Five, with or without an AA member, but as I said in my original posting there seems to be no record of it. The foreword to the first edition of the Big Book (1939) says, inter alia, "The only requirement for membership (of AA) is an honest desire to stop drinking." So there is no requirement on anyone to take any of the Steps, including number five. - - - - To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:41:38 -0500Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Fifth steps in early AA Dear Laurie and Terry With all due respect, you are advocating revisionist speculation not AA history. AAHistoryLovers is supposed to focus on fact-based information as opposed to editorial-based imagination. Bill W sobered up in December 1934. Dr Bob sobered up in June 1935. The 12 Steps were first drafted in December 1938. When Bill W sobered up there was no such thing even remotely approaching the notion of doing the equivalent of a "5th Step" with "people outside of AA." There was no AA. The "schoolmate" who visited Bill in the hospital was Ebby T. Bill considered him to be his sponsor throughout his life (even though Ebby had his difficulties staying sober). The idea of alluding to Ebby as "people outside AA" is absurd.Bill W met Father Dowling in December 1940 at the 24th St Club in NY City. He reputedly was Bill W's "spiritual sponsor" throughout his life. Although he was not an alcoholic, to portray Fr Dowling as "people outside AA" isalso absurd. He started AA in St Louis, MO. When Dr Bob had his last drink there was no such thing as "Steps." Both of you seem to be attempting to retrofit what exists today to something that didn't exist back then. Dr Bob joined the Oxford Group in 1933. This was approximately two years before he met Bill W. During the first few years of its existence, the AA Fellowship was affiliated with the Oxford Group in both NY and Akron. CoreOxford Group principles consisted of the "Four Absolutes" of honesty, unselfishness, purity and love - the "Five C's" (confidence, confession, conviction, conversion and continuance) and the "Five Procedures" (1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God's direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitutionand 5. Sharing for witness and confession). Dr Bob would certainly not have been a stranger to practicing the principle of "Confession." Henrietta Sieberling organized an OG meeting at the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams in Akron specifically to help Dr Bob with hisdrinking. Dr Bob confessed openly about his drinking but could not stop.The OG never had anything that they called or considered to be Steps. The idea and evolution of Steps derived in the latter 1930s from what was called the "alcoholic squads" of the OG in Akron and NY. It initially took the formof a word-of-mouth 6-Step program. Various versions of the 6 Steps can be found in (1) Earl T's Big Book Story "He Sold Himself Short" pg 263 4th edition (2) "AA Comes of Age" pg 160 and "Pass It On" pg 197 and (3) a July 1953 Grapevine Article titled "A Fragment of History" which can also befound in "The Language of the Heart" pg 200. In various forms, up to December 1938, the equivalent of what later became Steps 5 and 10 were stated as either: (1) "Confession" or (2) "We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence" or (3) "We got honest with another person, in confidence." There was no "admitted to God" and "to ourselves."It may sound like AA heresy, but the Big Book is not the be-all and end-all on the Steps. When Bill W wrote the bulk of the Big Book basic text in 1938 he was in his fourth year of sobriety, there were approximately 100 members and there were two groups. When Bill wrote the 12&12 in 1953 he was in his 19th year of sobriety, there were approximately 6,000 groups and 128,000 members. That's a great deal of accumulated experience over time. In the 12&12, on the 5th Step, Bill W suggests:"Our next problem will be to discover the person in whom we are to confide. Here we ought to take much care, remembering that prudence is a virtue which carries a high rating. Perhaps we shall need to share with this person facts about ourselves which no others ought to know. We shall want to speak with someone who is experienced, who not only has stayed dry but has been able tosurmount other serious difficulties. Difficulties, perhaps, like our own. This person may turn out to be one's sponsor, but not necessarily so. If you have developed a high confidence in him, and his temperament and problems are close to your own, then such a choice will be good. Besides, your sponsor already has the advantage of knowing something about your case." CheersArthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5119. . . . . . . . . . . . Hazelden revisions: Little Red Book and Twenty-Four Hours From: dave_landuyt . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2008 1:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have information on why, and in what way, Hazelden revised subsequent editions of "The Little Red Book" and "Twenty-Four Hours a Day"? Thanks for any input Dave IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5120. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Which printings of the 1st edition BB had red covers? From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/16/2008 1:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From (bikergaryg at aol.com) From my limited understanding I believe that a few second printings of the first edition had red covers. the first printing was 1939 and the second printing 1941. in the wind Gary Govier - - - - - From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com (DudleyDobinson at aol.com) Hi Mike, eBay item 150269984282 finished up selling for a good price. Would still like the book to be checked by a professional. Earl Husband the late archivist from Chicago area had a copy listed a couple of years ago. The only other copy I have heard of was in a Danish collector's possession back in 2001. The story with the latest edition is that 5000 red bindings were ordered with the First printing and 4,730 were actually used and the remainder used with the Second printing. I have no way of verifying this. A bookbinding expert would be the only person who could help. The dilemna of course is having one to look at. Perhaps I should mention that I bought my copy of the First from Earl Husband and I have some doubts about whether it has been rebound. It looks too good! But then I remind myself that my middle name is Thomas. In fellowship - Dudley - From the Emerald Isles - - - - Original message #5117 from Shakey Mike Gwirtz (shakey1aa at yahoo.com) Message 2258 from Jim Blair says that only the 1st ed 1st printing has a red cover. On e-bay currently there is a book for sale that says it has a red cover. Does anyone know if there were some red covers in this 2nd printing or if the book was rebound? It also has gold lettering on the book and the spine??? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5121. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Which printings of the 1st edition BB had red covers? From: Cherie'' H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2008 8:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a 50th Anniversary Australian edition that has a red cover and looks like you described. It is a commemorative Edition printed in 1995. I have a copy that was sent to me by a friend in Australia. I am now told that this is a rare book, even though many were printed, not many can be found today, and I have heard they sell for quite a bit on ebay, but there's nothing in the world would make me give up mine. AA Hugs Cherie' Mt. Clemens, MI DOS 04/26/01 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5122. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Spiritual not religious From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2008 11:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "The two words (spirituality and religion) can be used interchangeably ... Attempts to draw a contrasting distinction between the two words rest far more in the secularism of contemporary AA rather than in AA's historical roots." Really? Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (pp. 162ff my version): "... the hot debate about the Twelve Steps and the (Big) book's contents was doubled and redoubled. There were conservative, liberal and radical viewpoints ... Fitz thought the book ought to be Christian in the doctrinal sense of the word and that it should say so. He was in favor of using Biblical terms and expressions to make this clear ... The liberals were the largest contingent and they had no objection to the word 'God' throughout the book but they were dead set against any other theological proposition. They would have nothing to do with doctrinal issues (i.e. religion). SPIRITUALITY, YES. BUT RELIGION, NO -- POSITIVELY NO (emphasis added)." (Circa 1938 - historical enough?) - - - - To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 21:00:18 -0500Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Spiritual not religious Hi JohnRegrettably there is much repeated in AA that has no basis in fact. Early AA was very "pro religion" but it never attempted to project itself as a religion. When too few words are cited it is usually at the expense of context. And I don't agree at all with the context you are portraying. This is rather long reply since you are seeking citations.From my own investigations it seems that attempts to draw a distinction between the words "spiritual" and "religious" are flawed and sophomoric. The two words can be used interchangeably based on just about any dictionary. Do a search on the internet for the text string "definition of spiritual."Almost every return that derives from a dictionary will define the word "spiritual" as "religious" or "of religion" or "of the soul" (spirit). Attempts to draw a contrasting distinction between the two words rest farmore in the secularism of contemporary AA rather than in AA's historical roots. Many of AA's early historical friends were members of the clergy and their influence was profound. Bill W often stated that AA's two best friendswere medicine and religion.Over the past two decades the rise of secularism has spawned the notion of the words "religion" or "religious" to almost be pejoratives. I find this very disturbing. Also be careful to not be too selective in the sparse citing of Bill W and the Big Book -- both cite many favorable descriptions of"religion" or "religious." For example:From Bill W's address to the 1960 National Clergy Conference On Alcoholism:(1) "Excellencies and Friends: My thanks to Father Ray for his introduction. He has us off to an appropriate start. This hour with you is most meaningful to me and I trust it will be to you and to A.A. as a whole. Every thoughtful A.A. realizes that the divine grace, which has always flowed through the Church, is the ultimate foundation on which AA rests. Our spiritual origins are Christian ..."(2) "... It now occurs to me that it may be profitable if we were to review the origins of AA; to take a look at some of its under-lying mechanisms -- an interior look as it were. Of course I am here reflecting my own views, and some of these are bound to be speculative. At any rate, here they are.Though AA roots are in the centuries-old Christian community, there seems little doubt that in an immediate sense our fellowship began in the office of the much-respected Dr. Carl Jung of Zurich ..."(3) "... Now a final thought. Many a non-alcoholic clergyman asks these questions about Alcoholics Anonymous: "Why do clergymen so often fail with alcoholics, when AA so often succeeds? Is it possible that the grace of AA is superior to that of the Church? Is Alcoholics Anonymous a new religion, acompetitor of the Church?If these misgivings had real substance, they would be serious indeed. But, as I have already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot in the least be regarded as a new religion. Our Twelve Steps have no theological content,except that which speaks of "God as we under-stand Him." This means that each individual AA member may define God according to whatever faith or creed he may have. Therefore there isn't the slightest interference with thereligious views of any of our membership. The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral attitudes and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in character. Therefore, as far as they go, the Steps are good Christianity; indeed they are good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have affirmed more than once.Neither does AA exert the slightest religious authority over its members: No one is compelled to believe anything. No one is compelled to meet membership conditions. No one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we have no system of authority, spiritual or temporal, that is comparable to or in the least competitive with the Church. At the center of our society we have a Board ofTrustees. This body is accountable yearly to a Conference of elected Delegates. These Delegates represent the conscience and desire of AA as regards functional or service matters. Our Tradition contains an emphaticinjunction that these Trustees may never constitute themselves as a government -- they are to merely provide certain services that enable AA as a whole to function. The same principles apply at our group and area level.Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his own religious views. For whatever they may be worth, I have my own. But both of us have gone heavily on record to the effect that these personal views and preferences can never under anyconditions be injected into the AA program as a working part of it. AA is a sort of spiritual kindergarten, but that is all. Never could it be called a religion.Nor should any clergyman, because he does not happen to be a channel of grace to alcoholics, feel that he or his Church is lacking in grace. No real question of grace is involved at all - it is just a question of who can besttransmit God's abundance. It so happens that we who have suffered alcoholism, we who can identify so deeply with other sufferers, are the ones usually best suited for this parti-cular work. Certainly no clergyman ought to feel any inferiority just because he himself is not an alcoholic! Then, as I have already emphasized, AA has actually derived all of its principles, directly or indirectly, from the Church.Ours, gentlemen, is a debt of gratitude far beyond any ability of mine to express. On behalf of members everywhere, I give you our deepest thanks for the warm understanding and the wonderful co-operation that you haveeverywhere afforded us. Please also have my gratitude for the privilege of being with you this morning. This is an hour that I shall remember always ..."From the Q&A that followed Bill's address:(4) "... When these Steps were shown to my friends, their reactions were quite mixed indeed. Some argued that six steps had worked fine, so why twelve? From our agnostic contingent there were loud cries of too much"God." Others objected to an expression, which I had included which suggested getting on one's knees while in prayer. I heavily resisted these objections for months. But finally did take out my statement about a suitable prayer-ful posture and I finally went along with that now tremendously important expression, "God as we understand Him" - this expression having been coined, I think, by one of our former atheist members. This was indeed a ten-strike. That one has since enabled thousands to join AA who would have otherwise gone away. It enabled people of fine religious training and those of none at all to associate freely and to work together. It made one's religion the business of the AA member himself and not that of his society.That AA's Twelve Steps have since been in such high esteem by the Church, that members of the Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention to the similarity between them and the Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for ourgreat wonder and gratitude indeed ..."(5) From the Foreword to the Second Edition Big Book:"... Another reason for the wide acceptance of A.A. was the ministration of friends -- friends in medicine, religion, and the press, together with innumerable others who became our able and persistent advocates. Without such support, A.A. could have made only the slowest progress. Some of the recommendations of A.A.'s early medical and religious friends will be found further on in this book. Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization. Neither does A.A. take any particular medical point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion. Alcohol being no respecter of persons, we are an accurate cross section of America, and in distant lands, the same democratic evening-up process is now going on. By personal religious affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women ..."(6) From Bill's Story"... The door opened and he stood there, fresh-skinned and glowing. There was something about his eyes. He was inexplicably different. What had happened?I pushed a drink across the table. He refused it. Disappointed but curious, I wondered what had got into the fellow. He wasn't himself. "Come, what's this all about?" I queried. He looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly,he said, "I've got religion ..."(7) From We Agnostics"... We, who have traveled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. We have learned that whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths have given purpose and direction to millions. People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about. Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception whatever. We used to amuse our-selves by cynically dissecting spiritualbeliefs and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons of all races, colors, and creeds were demon-strating a degree of stability, happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves ..."(8) From Into Action"... We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live long or happily in this world. Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it. Though we have no religious connection, wemay still do well to talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a person quick to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter people who do not understand alcoholics ...""... If circumstances warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning devotion, we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers whichemphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Makeuse of what they offer ..."(9) From Working With Others"... Your prospect may belong to a religious denomination. His religious education and training may be far superior to yours. In that case he is going to wonder how you can add anything to what he already knows. But he will be curious to learn why his own convictions have not worked and why yours seem to work so well. He may be an example of the truth that faith alone is insufficient. To be vital, faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice and unselfish, constructive action. Let him see that you are not there to instruct him in religion. Admit that he probably knows more about it than you do, but call to his attention the fact that however deep his faith and knowledge, he could not have applied it or he would not drink. Perhaps your story will help him see where he has failed to practice the very precepts he knows so well. We represent no particular faith or denomination. We are dealing only with general principles common to most denominations ..."(10) From The Family Afterward"... Alcoholics who have derided religious people will be helped by such contacts. Being possessed of a spiritual experience, the alcoholic will find he has much in common with these people, though he may differ with them on many matters. If he does not argue about religion, he will make new friends and is sure to find new avenues of usefulness and pleasure. He and his family can be a bright spot in such congregations. He may bring new hope and new courage to many a priest, minister, or rabbi, who gives his all tominister to our troubled world. We intend the foregoing as a helpful suggestion only. So far as we are concerned, there is nothing obligatory about it. As non-denominational people, we cannot make up others' minds forthem. Each individual should consult his own conscience ..."========In just about every mention of "not religious" it seems that Bill's context was that AA is not affiliated with any specific religious denomination and matters of religion are solely up to each individual member to define for themselves -- Bill very definitely was not attempting to distance himself from religion. Two more citations that might be interesting concerning the Oxford Group and its influence on the principles embodied in the Steps. In a July 14, 1949 letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker Bill W wrote "So far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual wellspring at the beginning." In AA Comes of Age (pg 39) Bill also wrote: "Early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker their former leader in America and from nowhere else." CheersArthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5123. . . . . . . . . . . . How many copies of the Big Book printed in each printing? From: Dick . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/17/2008 9:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I know I've seen this before, but I can't find it by searching the archives, and I can't find it anywhere else on line .... Can anyone tell me the actual sizes of the print runs for each of the printings of the Big Book? Or suggest where I can find them. Thanx Dick IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5124. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hazelden revisions: Little Red Book and Twenty-Four Hours From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2008 5:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 00:37 7/18/2008, dave_landuyt wrote: >Does anyone have information on why, and in >what way, Hazelden revised subsequent editions >of "The Little Red Book" and "Twenty-Four Hours >a Day"? > > Thanks for any input > Dave > > > >------------------------------------ Hazelden took over publication of Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours a Day book, they say, in 1954. My best guess of the number of distinct printings they put out between then and the 1975 copyright is seven. These can be distinguished from each other by the Hazelden's address, what logo they used, and its location(s). None of these had a publication date nor a copyright and all had rounded corners on the covers. Hazelden came out with a revised edition with a 1975 copyright. Some of these even have printing numbers and some were printed by other companies. I won't hazard a guess as to why the changes were made. Most changes render the book gender neutral. They also used American English spelling in many cases, correcting Walker's tendency to use British spelling. I will give a couple of examples. Entry for April 6, old version: Every alcoholic has a personality problem. He drinks to escape from life, to counteract a feeling of loneliness or inferiority, or because of some emotional conflict within himself, so that he cannot adjust himself to life. His alcoholism is a symptom of his personality disorder. An alcoholic cannot stop drinking unless he finds a way to solve his personality problem. That's why going on the wagon doesn't solve anything. That's why taking the pledge usually doesn't work. New version: All alcoholics have personality problems. They drink to escape from life, to counteract feelings of loneliness or inferiority, or because of some emotional conflict within them, so that they cannot adjust themselves to life. Alcoholics cannot stop drinking unless they find a way to solve their personality problems. That's why going on the wagon doesn't solve anything. That's why taking the pledge usually doesn't work. Entry for May 27, old version: In twelfth-step work, the fifth thing is continuance. Continuance means our staying with the prospect after he has started on the new way of living. We must stick with him and not let him down. We must encourage him to go to meetings regularly for fellowship and help. He will learn that keeping sober is a lot easier in the fellowship of others who are trying to do the same thing. We must continue to help him by going to see him regularly or telephoning him or writing him so that he doesn't get out of touch with A.A. Continuance means good sponsorship. Do I care enough about another alcoholic to continue with him as long as necessary? New version: In twelfth-step work, the fifth thing is continuance. Continuance means our staying with prospects after they have started on the new way of living. We must stick with them and not let them down. We must encourage them to go to meetings regularly for fellowship and help. They will learn that keeping sober is a lot easier in the fellowship of others who are trying to do the same thing. We must continue to help prospects by going to see them regularly or telephoning them or writing them so that they don't get out of touch with A.A. Continuance means good sponsorship. Do I care enough about other alcoholics to continue with them as long as necessary? These are typical of the changes made but Hazelden did not change all the references to male alcoholics. See April 5th for an example of this. Hazelden took over publishing the Little Red Book some time in the 1960s. The first of the smaller, when compared with the Coll-Webb printings, format had zip codes with Hazelden's address but did not have ISBN numbers. That would place publication in the middle 60s. These had a copyright by Coll-Webb dated 1957. They revised the LRB at that time so the page references corresponded with the new pagination of the Second Edition of the Big Book. A very brief comparison of a dozen or so pages of an early printing and one with a 1970 copyright shows no differences. That is not to say there are no differences, I just did not find any. I also am not aware of the date of the current copyright. There were a number of changes made to the LRB in the first half-dozen printings from 1946-1950, but the question addressed the changes Hazelden made. Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5125. . . . . . . . . . . . Serenity Prayer Revisited From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2008 10:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have come across another blurb on the serenity prayer and uses it as an example of the oral transmission of prayers: This appears to be a web site at the University of Pennsylvania. It traces ten versions of the prayer and once again gives no satisfactory answer to the question of who wrote it and when. I note once again that Shapiro's work is based on what can be found on the web and is thusly limited by that factor, but there were a lot of versions extant. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - - http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=355 The serenity memeJuly 14, 2008 @ 1:31 pm Filed by Benjamin Zimmer under Linguistic history As reported in the New York Times and Time Magazine, Yale law librarian and quotation- hunter extraordinaire Fred Shapiro has uncovered evidence undermining the long-held attribution of "The Serenity Prayer" to the American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr. Niebuhr's family originally claimed that he composed the prayer in the summer of 1943, but Shapiro has uncovered variations on the theme going back to 1936 in various American publications. (The first printed attribution to Niebuhr is actually from 1942.) Shapiro lays out his evidence in the Yale Alumni Magazine, followed by a rebuttal by Niebuhr's daughter Elisabeth Sifton. What's particularly fascinating about Shapiro's documentary evidence is how the early citations all fit a general formula and yet show a divergence in phrasing reminiscent of the Telephone game. Regardless of how much claim her father ultimately has to originating the prayer, Sifton is correct to point out that "prayers are presented orally, circulate orally, and become famous orally long before they are put on paper." It's clear that by the time the prayer found its way into print in the '30s and '40s, the oral transmission of the meme was already well under way, as illustrated by the mutations it underwent in the retelling. Below are ten variants of the prayer cited in Shapiro's article, with the final one from 1943 being Niebuhr's preferred version, according to his daughter. I've arranged them in tabular form so that the formula is more obvious. What God is being asked to grant consists of three noun phrases, which we can label SERENITY, COURAGE, and WISDOM. Note that in a few of these early cases, COURAGE actually precedes SERENITY; I've marked these with (1) and (2) to indicate the actual order of the NPs in the source texts. O God, give us serenity to accept what cannot be helped (2) courage to change what must be altered (1) and insight to know the one from the other 1936 we may have an understanding and serenity to face what cannot be changed (2) the courage to change what should be altered (1) and the wisdom to recognize one from the other 1938 oh God, give me serenity to accept that which cannot be changed courage to change that which can be changed and wisdom to tell the one from the other 1939 God give me serenity to accept things I cannot change the courage to change those I can and the wisdom to know the difference 1940 we must have the serenity to accept what we cannot change within ourselves the courage to attempt to change what we can and the wit to know one from the other 1941 God, give me serenity to accept what cannot be helped (2) the courage to change what must be altered (1) and insight to determine one from the other 1941 try to develop serenity to face that which cannot be changed (2) courage to change that which can be changed (1) and insight to tell one from the other 1941 O God, give me serenity to accept what cannot be changed the courage to change what can be changed and the wisdom to know one from the other 1942 give me the patience to accept those things which I cannot change the courage to change those things which can be changed and the wisdom to know the difference 1942 God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed courage to change the things that should be changed and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other 1943 Given the amount of variation in the prayer's form, it takes a lot of clever searching through enormous databases of digitized texts to trace its early transmission. Shapiro long ago turned this type of linguistic investigation into an art form, as is on display in his masterwork, the Yale Book of Quotations. As databases become more powerful in their search functionality and broader in the scope of their source material, tracking these memetic mutations will increasingly become a game that we can all take part in. [My standard warning: Google Book Search is getting better and better for this sort of research, but it's plagued by misdating problems, particularly with serials like journals and magazines. So if you think you've trumped Shapiro by finding a version of the prayer from, say, 1900, take a close look at the metadata provided by Google for the text. More often than not, a deceptively early dating in the search results actually refers to the first year of the serial's publication.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5126. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry Leach From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/23/2008 9:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII two questions... When did Barry Leach die? How long was he Lois Wilson's chauffeur, go-fer, nurse, companion at home and numerous AA events? What period of years...from ... to ...? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5127. . . . . . . . . . . . Earliest versions of the Little Red Book From: dave_landuyt . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/23/2008 7:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What were the substantive changes made in the earliest versions of the "Little Red Book"? What do the changes tell us about Dr. Bob's intent to (clarify/expand?) upon the original text? Thank You for any and all opinions - Dave - - - - From Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) See http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html for a few of the differences between the 1946 and the 1949 versions. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5128. . . . . . . . . . . . Were the 12 steps Harper''s suggestion? From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/22/2008 7:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Two different accounts of the role of Harper & Brothers in the writing of the Big Book: FIRST VERSION: "Pass It On" (the conference biography of Bill W.) pages 193-194 (the Harper offer, which was for $1,500, was rejected by the AA people) and pages 196-199 (the writing of the twelve steps came much later and had nothing to do with the Harper & Brothers offer). "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" pages 153-155 and pages 159-163 give essentially the same story as the one given in "Pass It On." SECOND VERSION: An AA History talk by Jim Burwell in which he gives his own recollections of what happened with regard to Harper & Brothers: http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1663 DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO VERSIONS: According to Jim Burwell the offer was for three thousand dollars. According to Pass It On and AA Comes of Age the offer was for an advance of fifteen hundred dollars to be deducted from the total royalties once the book was published. At any rate, regardless of whether the amount was three thousand dollars or fifteen hundred dollars, Hank Parker thought it was suspicious that Harper & Brothers was willing to make such such a generous offer and proposed that AA publish the book on its own so that AA could keep most of the profits. Hank's idea of self-publishing the book was the beginning of the Works Publishing Company. My larger point however was to point out that according to Jim Burwell it was Harper & Brothers' idea to include a program of recovery, aka the twelves steps, in the Big Book in order to make the book more marketable. Also I wanted to make the larger point that the "first 100" may have actually gotten sober before the 12 steps (as such) were written and that writing the steps were an afterthought based on a publisher's suggestion. Personally I don't know what to believe since alcoholics rarely allow the truth to stand in the way of a good story. Sincerely, Jim Flynn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5129. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of the Big Book manuscript From: Kilroy . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2008 6:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everybody, while on the subject of Barry L., I have heard that Lois gave Barry Bill W's original copy of the Big Book Manuscript. Can anyone tell me where it is now? Kilroy W. Philadelphia PA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5130. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of the Big Book manuscript From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2008 3:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) The corrected multilith copy of the BB given by Lois to Barry L is the copy that was auctioned twice at Sotheby's within the last couple of years, once for more than $1 million, once for slightly less. Check aaholygrail on the net for details. - - - - From: "Arthur S" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Lois gave Barry the mark-up manuscript (a one-of-a-kind gem). Barry reputedly passed it on to his nephew who auctioned it for sizable sum (around a million and a half in 2004). It resold to the current for a steep decline (around 900 thousand). Currently the saga of the mark-up manuscript can be found at http://www.aaholygrail.com/3.html The site has some very nice graphics and reveals the name of the author of "Ace Full - Seven - Eleven" as Del T. Cheers Arthur - - - - From: "lester112985" (lgother at optonline.net) This manuscript was just sold recently at auction. My sponsor and I had the wonderful fortune of spending several hours reviewing and photographing this awesome peice of AA history. Here is a site of the new owner of manuscript: http://www.aaholygrail.com/3.html Hope you have the same spiritual experience with it as I did. God Bless! Lester Gother Area 44 Northern New Jersey IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5131. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of the Big Book manuscript From: rick . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2008 9:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The “Printer’s Manuscript” that Bill had kept was the actual annotated multilith that was taken to Cornwall Press in early February 1939. It contained all of the last-minute edits with handwritten notes and changes from Bill, Hank P., and a few others (how about some things from the book publisher, too? anything can be possible). This ‘original copy’ has great provenance; one greatly historical item that was saved over the years. Lois retained it after Bill died and gifted it (1980s?) to Barry L. as a token of her affection for his friendship. A few say that it was a collateral compensation for the low AAWS payment for his work on "Living Sober," or, more likely his efforts to help write "Lois Remembers." Someone performed conservation on this manuscript at some point, too--- it may have been deacidified and encapsulated by Barry’s family or immediately prior to the Sotheby’s Auction House offering in 2004. Bill P. of Minnesota (rest his soul) was one AA archivist who verified its authenticity when it was placed on the auction block, and the sellers (Barry’s heirs) accepted a telephoned bid from someone in California for 1.58 million dollars. So, it stayed in private hands. In 2007, it returned to the auction block (Sotheby’s) and sold for just under a million dollars. The buyers made a few online announcements of pending availability for excerpts, but I hadn’t seen much more about its accessibility since the months after its last purchase. It remains in private hands. Rick, Illinois At the time of the first sale I shared this quip at a local presentation on Big Book history, “you might not get drunk buying your way through AA historical treasures, but you sure should be ready to spend a lot of cash…” In a perfect world the “Printer’s Manuscript” would have been contributed and placed in the AA Archives at GSO. Again, anything is possible!---R. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5133. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Were the 12 steps Harper''s suggestion? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2008 9:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Jim The idea that Exman or Harper suggested the Steps has no basis in fact. The main reason for Harper/Eugene Exman's involvement was due to the search for funds to sustain the book project. In September 1938, board Trustee Frank Amos arranged a meeting between Bill W and Exman (Religious Editor of Harper Brothers publishers). Exman offered Bill a $1,500 advance ($21,429 today) on the rights to the book. The Alcoholic Foundation Board urged acceptance of the offer. Instead, Hank P (Parkhurst not Parker) persuaded Bill to form Works Publishing Co. and sold stock at $25 par value ($357 today). 600 shares were issued: Hank and Bill received 200 shares each, 200 shares were sold to others. Later, 30 shares of preferred stock, at $100 par value ($1,429 today) were sold as well. In AA Comes of Age (p 155) Bill W writes "Still much disturbed about the whole business, I went back to Gene Exman and frankly explained to him what was about to happen. To my utter amazement, he agreed, quite contrary to his own interest, that a society like ours ought to control and publish its own literature. Moreover, he felt that very possibly we could do this with success. Though Gene's opinion did not register at all when it was transmitted to the Trustees, it did give Henry and me the kind of encouragement we so much needed." In regards to funds to finance the book, as it turned out, at the urging of Dr Silkworth, Charles Towns loaned Hank and Bill $2,500 for the book. It was later increased to $4,000 and that resolved the funding matter. Exman later played a role in the distribution of the 12&12 and AA Comes of Age through retail channels via Harper. In regards to the so-called "first 100" in December 1938, the Twelve Steps were written at 182 Clinton St (in about 30 minutes). Prior to this, the recovery program consisted of 6 Steps that were passed on by word of mouth to new members. Three differing versions of the 6 Steps are in The Language of the Heart (pg 200), AA Comes of Age (p 160), Pass It On (p 197) and the Big Book Pioneer story He Sold Himself Short by Earl T (p 263 4th ed]. In a July 1953 Grapevine article by Bill W, he credits Dr Silkworth, the Oxford Group and William James as the 3 main channels of inspiration for the Step - he then wrote: "During the next three years after Dr. Bob's recovery our growing groups at Akron, New York and Cleveland evolved the so-called word-of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we commenced to form a society separate from the Oxford Group, we began to state our princi- ples something like this: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol 2. We got honest with ourselves 3. We got honest with another person, in confidence 4. We made amends for harms done others 5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or money 6. We prayed to God to help us to do these things as best we could Though these principles were advocated according to the whim or liking of each of us, and though in Akron and Cleveland they still stuck by the O.G. absolutes of honesty, purity, unselfishness and love, this was the gist of our message to incoming alcoholics up to 1939, when our present Twelve Steps were put to paper. I well remember the evening on which the Twelve Steps were written I was lying in bed quite dejected and suffering from one of my imaginary ulcer attacks. Four chapters of the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, had been roughed out and read in meetings at Akron and New York. We quickly found that everybody wanted to be an author. The hassles as to what should go into our new book were terrific. For example, some wanted a purely psychological book which would draw in alcoholics without scaring them. We could tell them about the "God business" after- wards. A few, led by our wonderful southern friend, Fitz M., wanted a fairly religious book infused with some of the dogma we had picked up from the churches and missions which had tried to help us. The louder these argu- ments, the more I felt in the middle. It appeared that I wasn't going to be the author at all. I was only going to be an umpire who would decide the contents of the book. This didn't mean, though, that there wasn't terrific enthusiasm for the undertaking. Every one of us was wildly excited at the possibility of getting our message before all those countless alcoholics who still didn't know. Having arrived at Chapter Five, it seemed high time to state what our program really was. I remember running over in my mind the word-of- mouth phrases then in current use. Jotting these down, they added up to the six named above. Then came the idea that our program ought to be more accurately and clearly stated. Distant readers would have to have a precise set of principles. Knowing the alcoholic's ability to rationalize, something airtight would have to be written. We couldn't let the reader wiggle out anywhere. Besides, a more complete statement would help in the chapters to come where we would need to show exactly how the recovery program ought to be worked. At length I began to write on a cheap yellow tablet. I split the word of-mouth program up into smaller pieces, meanwhile enlarging its scope considerably. Uninspired as I felt, I was surprised that in a short time, perhaps half an hour, I had set down certain principles which, on being counted, turned out to be twelve in number. And for some unaccountable reason, I had moved the idea of God into the Second Step, right up front. Besides, I had named God very liberally throughout the other steps. In one of the steps I had even suggested that the newcomer get down on his knees. When this document was shown to our New York meeting the protests were many and loud. Our agnostic friends didn't go at all for the idea of kneeling. Others said we were talking altogether too much about God. And anyhow, why should there be twelve steps when we had done fine on six? Let's keep it simple, they said. This sort of heated discussion went on for days and nights. But out of it all there came a ten-strike for Alcoholics Anonymous. Our agnostic contingent, speared by Hank P. and Jim B., finally convinced us that we must make it easier for people like themselves by using such terms as "a Higher Power" or "God as we understand Him!" Those expressions, as we so well know today, have proved lifesavers for many an alcoholic. They have enabled thousands of us to make a beginning where none could have been made had we left the steps just as I originally wrote them. Happily for us there were no other changes in the original draft and the number of steps still stood at twelve. Little, did we then guess that our Twelve Steps would soon be widely approved by clergymen of all denominations and even by our latter-day friends, the psychiatrists. This little fragment of history ought to convince the most skeptical that nobody invented Alcoholics Anonymous. It just grew ... by the grace of God." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Flynn Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 6:48 PM To: Glenn Chesnut Cc: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Were the 12 steps Harper's suggestion? Two different accounts of the role of Harper & Brothers in the writing of the Big Book: FIRST VERSION: "Pass It On" (the conference biography of Bill W.) pages 193-194 (the Harper offer, which was for $1,500, was rejected by the AA people) and pages 196-199 (the writing of the twelve steps came much later and had nothing to do with the Harper & Brothers offer). "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" pages 153-155 and pages 159-163 give essentially the same story as the one given in "Pass It On." SECOND VERSION: An AA History talk by Jim Burwell in which he gives his own recollections of what happened with regard to Harper & Brothers: http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1663 DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO VERSIONS: According to Jim Burwell the offer was for three thousand dollars. According to Pass It On and AA Comes of Age the offer was for an advance of fifteen hundred dollars to be deducted from the total royalties once the book was published. At any rate, regardless of whether the amount was three thousand dollars or fifteen hundred dollars, Hank Parker thought it was suspicious that Harper & Brothers was willing to make such such a generous offer and proposed that AA publish the book on its own so that AA could keep most of the profits. Hank's idea of self-publishing the book was the beginning of the Works Publishing Company. My larger point however was to point out that according to Jim Burwell it was Harper & Brothers' idea to include a program of recovery, aka the twelves steps, in the Big Book in order to make the book more marketable. Also I wanted to make the larger point that the "first 100" may have actually gotten sober before the 12 steps (as such) were written and that writing the steps were an afterthought based on a publisher's suggestion. Personally I don't know what to believe since alcoholics rarely allow the truth to stand in the way of a good story. Sincerely, Jim Flynn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5134. . . . . . . . . . . . Error in printing date for 12 X 12 forty-ninth printing? From: brigdencole . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 2:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have two AA 12X12 step books. They both state forty-ninth printing. However one says September, 1993 and the other says January, 1994. Any idea what AAWS did on these? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5135. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harper & Brothers and the Big Book From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2008 4:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What were the first two chapters of the Big Book that Bill W presented to the publishers? I read somewhere that originally the doctor's opinion was the first chapter. So did they send Harper & Brothers "The Doctor's Opinion" and "Bill's Story"? - - - - Message #5128 from James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) "Pass It On" (the conference biography of Bill W.) pages 193-194, two chapters of the Big Book were sent to Harper & Brothers. "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" pages 153-155 says the same thing. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5136. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of the Big Book manuscript From: Mel B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 2:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Rick, I was pleased to read this additional information about Barry L., the manuscript, etc. If his heirs made a bundle out of the manuscript, it is probably poetic justice. I think Barry did feel he deserved more pay for what services he had rendered to AA World Services and Lois supported him in this effort. It failed, however, and Barry died without getting any additional bucks (at least to my knowledge). He was virtually a son to Lois and accompanied her or her trips. I took a photo of her greeting Jack Bailey in Akron in 1978, with Barry standing behind her. This is the only photo I have of Barry, and I wish another was available. Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5137. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Error in printing date for 12 X 12 forty-ninth printing? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 4:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 13:18 7/29/2008, brigdencole wrote: >I have two AA 12X12 step books. They both >state forty-ninth printing. However one says >September, 1993 and the other says January, >1994. > >Any idea what AAWS did on these? They did the same thing with the 47th printing. There are two, one dated January 1993. I'm not sure if that was the first or the second of the 47th printings. There is a long history of mislabelling 12x12s starting with the 8th printing stating it is a 7th. Collectors usually distinguish them by the dates in the footnotes at the beginning and end of the foreword. I have a 12x12 that came out around 1990 that doesn't have a printing number. To me it just makes collecting them more interesting. Tommy in Baton Rouge - - - - Message 5134 from "brigdencole" says I have two AA 12X12 step books. They both state forty-ninth printing. However one says September, 1993 and the other says January, 1994. ANY IDEA WHAT AAWS DID ON THESE? - - - - From: "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) They made a mistake? - - - - From: "Kimball ROWE" (roweke at msn.com) Misprints are commonplace. I've got a soft bound large print edition of "AS BIKK SEES IT" They couldn't get Bill's name right (off the home row I suspect). I wouldn't read anything into it other than the transcriptionist was tired. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5138. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Tom M. (AA 1939) From: chetcope2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2008 9:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Transcript of Bill W. telling the story of Dr. Tom M., an important episode in the history of the debate within AA circles over the issue of alcoholism vs. drug addiction during the period between 1939 and 1947. - - - - A man named Dr. Tom M. was referred to in message 5082: "AA History Resource" from: (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5082 That message referred to a transcript of Bill W. telling about Dr. Tom M. <> - - - - A request was made for additional information in Message 5087 from "mrpetesplace" (peter at aastuff.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5087 I would like to know if this Dr. Tom M. is the same person as the man who is associated with Shelby, North Carolina. That is where AA started in this state. This man went to Lexington, Kentucky. I'm fairly sure that this is the same person .... This would be the doctor that Bill talks about visiting on his trip south and stopped off at a little town when he closed his talk with the Yale Summer lectures on Alcoholism .... Peter F., North Carolina - - - - Here is the article that Peter F. was asking about. The original can be found at: http://www.24-communications.com/072008/072008.pdf How Bill W. Learned that AA’s 12 Steps Work for Drug Addicts, Too by Thomas E. Powers Dr. Tom M. joined AA in 1939. He was a physician. He was an alcoholic. And he was a narcotics addict — hooked on morphine for twelve years. He read the AA Big Book while he was a patient at the U.S. Public Health Service Hospital in Lexington, Kentucky. Impressed by the Twelve Steps, and hopeful for the possibility of a new life, Dr. Tom contacted the AA central service office in New York by mail. After his release from the hospital in Lexington, Dr. Tom returned to his home in Shelby, North Carolina, and started an AA group. In the beginning, his contact with other AAs consisted of letters back and forth from the AA central office. But he stayed sober and clean; he never drank or took drugs again. Bill Wilson called Dr. Tom’s story “one of the greatest ever to come out of Alcoholics Anonymous.” Bill told part of Dr. Tom’s story at a large AA meeting in Memphis, Tennessee, in September of 1947. Here’s what Bill said: - - - - It was some six years ago. AA had made a good start. We were getting on firmer ground here and there, but nothing was too certain. One day our central office in New York (which is merely a service center where we receive inquiries and one thing and another) — one day that office received a letter from a man who was an inmate of the Lexington place for drug addicts. This man told us in the letter how he had been a physician, had got onto alcohol, and then onto morphine, and that while there in the asylum someone had written him about AA. He said he had been reading this AA book of ours [Alcoholics Anonymous, the AA Big Book], which is our book of experience. “Of course, I used to be an alcoholic,” he wrote, “but now I’m an addict of some twelve years standing, and you know how hopeless that is. But I do see hope for me in this philosophy of yours, and when I get out of here I’m certainly going to try it.” Subsequently our office struck up a correspondence with him as he’d returned home to that little southern hamlet. He told us in his quiet way of the various difficulties he had getting settled again, but never in any complaining sense. The girls in our office would write him occasional letters of encouragement, and little by little he began to describe the formation of an AA group in Shelby. (By the way, this was one of the earliest groups we formed through the mail, without any direct contact.) Well, it was a great thrill to all of us in the office. Meanwhile, the southern centers had started — Atlanta, Richmond, Jacksonville. In larger places the groups had become larger, and with that a demand had arisen that I get down among the southerners and pay my respects and see if I couldn’t peddle a little of the older AA experience down there. You see, AA began to look like a success at that time, and as everyone knows, success is a heady wine. I’m afraid that I was a little bit on the “big shot” side, and I spent some little time debating with the folks in the office whether I would stop off at Shelby. I mean, you know, that chap there was a nice chap, and he had done a nice job, but I should get where I could get to a lot of people. After some debating with myself and others, I finally, grudgingly, conceded that I would stop off there at Shelby. Well, when I got off the train at King’s Mountain, North Carolina, I saw three men approaching me from down the platform a ways. Two of them I spotted as “souses” right off the bat, you couldn’t mistake it — they were sober, you understand, but we drunks know our own quite well. The third one, well I wondered who and what he was. As he drew near I saw some lines in his face that I didn’t quite place, and as he drew nearer I saw his lips were marked in a strange way. I learned later that in the agony of his dope hangovers he had chewed them, leaving scars. He turned out to be the delightful soft-spoken man we call Dr. Tom. Well, we got in the car and drove from King’s Mountain over to Shelby. We were set down at the door of a beautiful, typically southern ancestral home. We went inside, and there I first met Tom’s mother, and then his young wife and their new baby. And I could feel the warmth and love and happiness through the atmosphere of that home. The meal came and went — and from an AA point of view, it was a most unusual meal. I found that Tom was rather reluctant to talk about what he had done in Shelby, so there wasn’t much AA “shop talk” at the table ( practically unheard-of elsewhere), and I wondered myself if dope had a humbling effect — if so, I think that some of us alcoholics should have taken more of it. At any rate, presently meeting time came, and we got down there, and the meeting place was right under the hotel — right next to the barbershop — very public. And I said to myself, “Well, now, for a small town that’s really going some!” And, yes, even over the door, here were two letters — “AA.” And I got in there and here was the usual jolly crowd, and then the meeting started. Well now, up in New York — incidentally, I’m not from New York, so I can say what I am going to say with impunity; I’m a Vermonter and therefore one of the damnedest of all Yankees — our group there is very cosmopolitan. We have vast numbers of what you might call “stumble-bums,” and we have a great many sophisticates and very wise people there, or at least we used to until AA tamed them down. In those days we used to rather have to pussy-foot in New York on the subject of God, lest we scare away some of the intellectuals, so when I got to Shelby and there was a great, long invocation, and a choir girl got up and sang a hymn — well, it was reminiscent of my youth in Vermont, but I said to myself, “Well now, the New Yorkers wouldn’t call this AA.” Well, then they called upon me to talk, and I talked (too long — by the way; shut me off anytime you get tired tonight — I have that habit), and then I believe there was another long prayer and the meeting was over. And I began to notice with amazement that there were an awful lot of AAs there. I mean, twenty, thirty of them in this small place, and they told me there was an equal number out in the defense industry nearby. I was wonderfully and favorably stirred by the whole thing, but the crux of my story turns around what happened the following morning. I was to leave on an early train, and somebody called up from the lobby and said, “Do you mind, Bill — I’d like to drop up and tell you a few things about Dr. Tom.” And a man came up, and after he re-introduced himself (I remembered him from the meeting the night before), he said, “I’ve got some things you should know. Speaking of myself, I used to be a banker. I once organized a whole string of banks in these southern states. I was on the high road to success. But I was cut down by alcohol, and then I was cut down by morphine. I was in the asylum in Lexington with Dr. Tom once. He knew my story and knew that I couldn’t stay clean. He asked me to come here for a visit, and I ended up staying here to work with him. I have been sober and clean now my- self a year, and he about three.” And he said, “You know, I’m very gladly working as a janitor at the Masonic Temple, just so I can have time to work with my friend Dr. Tom. But enough of me — let me tell you about Dr. Tom. “Do you realize that when that man came back here to this little town — can you possibly comprehend what the stigma was upon him? The stigma of both alcohol and morphine was on him. He had dishonored his profession of medicine, and disgraced his highly placed family in this community. People were so scandalized that they hardly spoke to him on the street.” And he said, “I’m sorry to say that even the drunks of Shelby were snobbish, saying that they were going to be sobered up by no damned drug addict. “Well, little by little he began to work, and little by little he began to succeed, and the group grew. “Well, now,” said this man, “you’ve been at Tom’s home — you have seen that happy mother of his, you’ve seen the new wife, and you’ve seen the new baby, but you still don’t know the whole story. “Tom now has been made the head of our local hospital. He probably has the largest medical practice in this county today. All this was accomplished in just three years, from a start way behind the line. We have a yearly custom in this town in which all the citizens take a vote on which one of them has been the most useful individual to the community in the year past. Last spring Dr. Tom was unanimously nominated as the most useful citizen of the town of Shelby.” When he had finished his recital, I said to myself, “So you were the man, Bill Wilson, who was too important to go to Shelby.” Indeed, what hath God wrought. - - - - Three years before Bill gave that talk, Dr. Tom had written a letter which was published in The AA Grapevine. He was answering another letter from “Doc” N. — himself a recovered narcotics addict who had gotten clean in AA. We publish this correspondence from The AA Grapevine issues of August and September 1944, for the interest and help of other recovered and recovering addicts. The first letter is from “Doc” N. — - - - - Dear Grapevine: Your second issue at hand inspires me to an idea. I’m sure there are other AAs who, like myself, are finding in AA the highway to freedom from narcotics. Why not give us a “hophead’s corner” in The Grapevine? After all, we do have a particular problem. Even if mine is essentially the same problem of all alcoholics, I occasionally could wish that there were just one other narcotic victim in my AA group with whom I might share experience. And though through the help of the Higher Power and my AA friends I no longer take morphine, I realize I fear it in a way I’ve ceased fearing alcohol. If I could just share experience with some other “hophead” I know it would be a big help, and among AA’s thousands I’m sure I’ll find my fellows. Sincerely, “Doc” N. - - - - The next issue of The AA Grapevine published an answer to this letter, from “Dr. Tom M., Shelby, North Carolina” — - - - - Dear Grapevine: I noticed recently in an issue of The Grapevine a letter from “Doc” N., who had found release from narcotics addiction through AA. This letter I was glad to see, and hasten to assure him and others that his experience is one that is beginning to be shared by quite a few. We have in our club five men who have had many years of drug addiction but who are finding complete freedom from drugs and are well on the highway to successful and happy living. Their period of freedom varies from five months to six years, and they all attribute this to the help of a Higher Power that has come to them through AA. These men, with one exception, were all primary alcoholics, and I believe this is largely true of all “hopheads.” I think all drug addicts will have less difficulty in accepting Step One than the regular alcoholic: that their lives have become unmanageable, and that they are powerless over narcotics. I think we feel the need of even greater help than does the usual alcoholic. Our spiritual lines of communication must be kept clearer and there is need for greater voltage from the spiritual dynamo. The Higher Power is able unto the uttermost to supply this; and many others should find the answer in AA. I’m sure that the other AA groups have men who are finding the new life of freedom and I earnestly wish that we may get into communication with each other; and I suggest the possibility, some time, of interesting the U.S. Public Health Service in the establishment of an AA group in the United States Public Health Services Hospital, which is in Lexington, Kentucky. Dr. Tom M.,Shelby, N.C. - - - - Permission to reprint the AA Grapevine, Inc. copyrighted material. 24 Communications, Inc does not imply affiliation with or endorse- ment by either Alcoholics Anonymous or the AA Grapevine, Inc. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5139. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Silkworths signature missing from the 1st edition BB From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 7:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been a long time reader on this message board but do not remember this topic. Why was Dr Silkworth's signature ommited from the first edition BB? When did the signature first appear in the BB? I have a 1st ed. 11th printing and it is not in it. I have 2nd ed. (1st, 2nd and 3rd printings) and it is in all of them. I was told by someone once that it was left out to protect Silky from others in his field until alcoholism was seen as a disease. Was his signature finally included when the AMA finally officially recognized alcoholism as a disease? The problem here, for me, is that alcoholism had in fact been characterized by some others in the medical profession in the late 1700's as a disease or at least an addiction. Any positive proof would be appreciated. I am not interested in opinions as I have previously heard too many of those. Kind Regards, Steve G. New Jersey IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5140. . . . . . . . . . . . Swedenborgianism: Lois W.''s grandfather''s book From: mdingle76 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 10:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have occasionally seen mention of Swendenborg on AAHistoryLovers and I thought it would be of interest for the group to know that Lois Wilson's grandfather (who was a reverend in the Swedenborgian Church — the Church of New Jerusalem), wrote a book called "Discrete Degrees," which can been viewed on http://www.stepstudy.org I first heard about "Discrete Degrees" many years ago when reading a letter between Lois and my father-in-law, Tom Powers. I am glad to see that stepstudy has put it up for others to read it. Matt D. - - - - STEPSTUDY.ORG GIVES A LINK TO THIS SITE: - - - - http://www.theisticscience.org/books/burnham/index.htm DISCRETE DEGREES IN SUCCESSIVE AND SIMULTANEOUS ORDER ILLUSTRATED BY DIAGRAMS BY THE REV. N.C. BURNHAM PHILADELPHIA THE ACADEMY OF THE NEW CHURCH 1821 WALLACE STREET 1887 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5141. . . . . . . . . . . . John Seiberling, 89, former US Rep. & son of Henrietta Seiberling dies From: aadavidi . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2008 1:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John Seiberling, 89, former US Representative & son of Henrietta Seiberling dies Longtime Akron Congressman John F. Seiberling died about 7 a.m. today of respiratory failure at his home in Copley. Mr. Seiberling, 89, represented the old Akron-based 14th Congressional District from 1971 through 1986. He is considered the man responsible for creation of the Cuyahoga Valley National Park between Akron and Cleveland in 1974. A liberal New Deal Democrat, he fought for wilderness and historic preservation, arms control, free trade and world peace, and he worked tirelessly in a bipartisan way to get things done. He was able to provide Akron with a new federal courthouse and post office and found federal money for many projects, including Quaker Square, Akron-Canton Airport and the Goodyear Technical Center. In Congress, Mr. Seiberling chaired the House Interior Committee's public lands and national parks subcommittee. He played a key role in preserving 129 million acres of wilderness and park land, including 54 million acres of Alaskan wilderness. He also play a critical role in passage of the federal surface mining reclamation act in 1977 and in enlarging the federal Land and Water Conservation Fund in 1976. He fought to eliminate acid rain. In 1974, Mr. Seiberling served on the House Judiciary Committee that held the impeachment hearings against President Richard M. Nixon, leading to his resignation. It was Mr. Seiberling's opposition to the Vietnam War that spurred the 17-year corporate attorney for Goodyear to run for Congress. While at Goodyear, he sided with union workers, taking a leave of absence rather than cross their picket lines. He married Elizabeth ''Betty'' Behr in 1949. They have three sons: John B., David and Stephen, and a grandson, Evan. A memorial service for Mr. Seiberling will be held in late August or early September. By Bob Downing Beacon Journal staff writer IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5142. . . . . . . . . . . . AP: former Ohio Congressman John Seiberling dies at 89 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2008 8:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Associated Press: Former Ohio Congressman John Seiberling dies at 89 From Mel Barger (melb at access-toledo.com) COPLEY, Ohio (AP) — Former Rep. John F. Seiberling, who served on the committee that led impeachment hearings against President Richard Nixon and laid the groundwork for Ohio's only national park, died Saturday. He was 89. Seiberling died of respiratory failure at his home near Akron after a long illness, said his wife, Betty Seiberling. Seiberling, a Democrat, had been a corporate attorney for Akron-based Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. for 17 years when he decided to run for Congress in 1970 because of his opposition to the Vietnam War. He unseated longtime Republican Rep. William Ayres. Seiberling led a House subcommittee on public lands and national parks that preserved 129 million acres, including areas in Alaska and the area in northeastern Ohio that eventually became Cuyahoga Valley National Park. In 1974, Seiberling was a member of the House Judiciary Committee as it led the impeachment hearings against Nixon, who resigned from office before a vote was taken. After retiring from Congress in 1987, Seiberling taught at the University of Akron School of Law and directed the university's Center for Peace Studies. A private funeral is planned. Copyright © 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5143. . . . . . . . . . . . John Seiberling From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2008 8:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From "Mel B." (melb at buckeye-access.com) This might be of interest to History Lovers. What follows is the Wikipedia item on John Seiberling, who died August 2 at 89. Note that his mother Henrietta is mentioned as well as her connection to AA. John did take an interest in AA and sometimes came to certain AA events in Akron. I met him at least once and also talked with him by phone. At one time, he represented his mother at an Akron AA event and told the story of her bringing Bill and Bob together. John had two sisters; I interviewed one in New York back around 1980. Mel Barger - - - - From Glenn C.: see photo of John Seiberling at http://hindsfoot.org/photos1.html - - - - John F. Seiberling From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia John Frederick Seiberling (September 8, 1918 -- August 2, 2008) was a United States Representative from Ohio. In 1974, he helped to establish what later became of the Cuyahoga Valley National Park, and served on the House Judiciary Committee that held the impeachment hearings against President Richard Nixon.[1] Born in Akron, Ohio, Seiberling attended the public schools of Akron, and Staunton Military Academy in Virginia. He received his A.B. from Harvard University in 1941. During World War II he served in the United States Army from 1942 to 1946. He was subsequently awarded the Legion of Merit for his participation in the Allied planning of the D-Day invasion.[2] Seiberling received his LL.B. from Columbia Law School in 1949. In 1950, Seiblerling was admitted to the New York bar and went into private practice. He became an associate with a New York firm from 1949 to 1954, and then became a volunteer with the New York Legal Aid Society in 1950. He served as a corporate attorney in private industry from 1954 to 1970, including working as a corporate attorney for the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company.[2] During this time he was a member of the Tri-County Regional Planning Commission in Akron from 1964 to 1970. Seiberling was elected as a Democrat to the Ninety-second and to the seven succeeding Congresses, serving the 14th district from January 3, 1971 to January 3, 1987. His political legacy includes enacting bipartisan environmental protections and participating in a 1975 Congressional delegation to the Middle East that helped precipitate the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty.[2] Seiberling was not a candidate for reelection to the One Hundredth Congress in 1986. After his time in Congress, Seiberling served as faculty at the law school of the University of Akron from 1992 to 1996. On Thursday, October 12, 2006, President George W. Bush signed into law H.R. 6051, which designates the Federal building and United States courthouse in Akron as the John F. Seiberling Federal Building and United States Courthouse.[3] Seiberling died of respiratory failure at his home in Copley, Ohio on August 2, 2008.[1] John Seiberling's cousin, Francis Seiberling, was also a U.S. Representative from Ohio (Republican). His mother, Henrietta Buckler Seiberling, was a seminal figure in Alcoholics Anonymous' founding and core spiritual ideals.[4][5] His paternal grandfather was Frank A. Seiberling, founder of the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company.[4] The family's one-time home, Stan Hywet, is now a national museum.[4] NOTES 1. ^ a b Downing, Bob (2008-08-02). "John Seiberling is dead at 89", Akron Beacon Journal. Retrieved on 2008-08-02. 2. ^ a b c Walker Snider (2005). 3. ^ President Designates United States Postal Service, Courthouse and Federal Building Facilities 4. ^ a b c University of Akron (n.d.). 5. ^ www.aabibliography.com (n.d.). REFERENCES John F. Seiberling at the Biographical Directory of the United States Congress University of Akron (n.d.). Henrietta Buckler Seiberling, 1888-1979. Retrieved 2007-11-20 from "Akron Women's History" at http://www3.uakron.edu/schlcomm/womenshistory/seiberling_h.htm. [19] Walker Snider,Jane (2005). Profiles in Service: John & Betty Seiberling. Retrieved 2007-11-20 from "Akron Council on World Affairs" at http://www.akronworldaffairs.org/newsletter/features/seiberling.html. www.aabibliography (n.d.). Henrietta Buckler Seiberling (1888-1979). Retrieved 2007-11-20 from "An Illustrated Alcoholic Anonymous Bibliography" at http://www.aabibliography.com/henrietta_buckler_seiberling.htm. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5144. . . . . . . . . . . . An American hero dies: John Seiberling From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2008 9:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "John Blair" (jblair at wmis.net) An American hero dies: John Seiberling http://www.ohio.com/news/26217469.html?page=all&c=y JOHN FREDERICK SEIBERLING 1918-2008 'An American hero' dies Retired congressman who represented Akron for 16 years praised for his tireless work creating Cuyahoga Valley park, preserving wilderness By Bob Downing Beacon Journal staff writer Published on Sunday, Aug 03, 2008 John F. Seiberling, the retired Akron congressman who helped create the Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area, died Saturday morning at his home in Copley Township. He was 89. Mr. Seiberling, who was born in Stan Hywet Hall but represented blue-collar Akron in the U.S. House of Representatives for 16 years, was remembered by some as the conscience of Congress and by others as one of America's great conservationists. His death was attributed to respiratory failure caused by chronic lung disease. He had been hospitalized June 29 but was released to go home, where he died about 7 a.m. Saturday. ''Without John Seiberling, there would be no Cuyahoga Valley National Park,'' said U.S. Rep. Ralph Regula, R-Navarre. ''He was a good person . . . and he left a great legacy in the Cuyahoga Valley park. ''He was the original environmentalist. He was green way back when. He really was ahead of his time. . . . He was a man of integrity and made his decisions based on what was right, not for their political value. And he cared deeply for the country and its people.'' Mr. Seiberling represented the old Akron-based 14th District in Congress from 1971 through 1986, frequently winning re-election with 70 percent of the vote. He was a liberal New Deal Democrat, a supporter of wilderness, arms control, free trade, world peace and historic preservation. He was a fan of Shakespeare, poetry and bawdy limericks, as well as an accomplished nature photographer and a lover of The Wind in the Willows. He was soft-spoken and reserved yet strong willed and at times feisty. He looked at the big picture, although he was a man of detail. Known for his calm, statesmanlike approach, he operated with caution and dignity, without flamboyance. He was known for his dry wit, intellect, idealism and integrity. He was a loner and proudly operated outside the political system, refusing to be one of the boys, to join the congressional club. Behind his back, staff and supporters called him St. John. Before Congress, during his 17 years as an attorney for the Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. — the company his grandfather founded — Mr. Seiberling once took a leave of absence to avoid crossing United Rubber Worker union picket lines. That's because he sided with the union at that time. And in the wake of the May 4, 1970, shootings at nearby Kent State University, Mr. Seiberling ignored the political risks and warnings of advisers to speak at a rally at the University of Akron, advising students there to keep their protests peaceful. It was his opposition to the Vietnam War that led Mr. Seiberling to run for Congress in 1970, defeating 10-term Republican incumbent William Ayers to become a 51-year-old rookie. Mr. Seiberling served on the House Judiciary Committee that conducted the 1974 impeachment hearings that led to the resignation of President Richard Nixon. And in his 1986 congressional hearings to probe the proposed takeover of Goodyear by raider Sir James Goldsmith, it was Mr. Seiberling who drew the loudest cheers from Akron when he confronted Goldsmith with the question: ''Who the hell are you?'' Part of Mr. Seiberling's success as a congressman was attributed to his ability to work with local and federal officials in a bipartisan effort. He got Akron a new federal courthouse and a new post office. He twice found federal money for the city's now-closed trash-burning power plant, as well as funds for Quaker Square, the Akron-Canton Airport, the Goodyear Technical Center and various other projects. ''I'm not sure any of us can adequately measure with words the immense contributions John has made,'' said Akron Mayor Don Plusquellic. ''The true value of his work will continue to reside in his legacy and will be enjoyed by and for many, many generations to come. His is the work of a remarkable public servant with a most generous spirit and creative mind. John Seiberling and his family have helped build and sustain this city.'' ''John Seiberling was a darn good congressman,'' Summit County Republican Party Chairman Alex Arshinkoff told a reporter after Seiberling retired. ''If I were a liberal Democrat, I'd say he was a great congressman.'' Mr. Seiberling also left his mark far beyond Akron, stretching across the American West and Alaska. ''John Seiberling stands as a giant in terms of managing public lands . . . an American hero,'' said John Debo, superintendent of the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. ''What he did was really extraordinary, and he truly was one of America's great conservationists.'' Right man, right time He was a key figure in Congress in the 1970s and 1980s and played a key role in preserving America's wild lands — with his constituents not always aware of the issues and what was going on, said Dan Nelson of Bath Township, an emeritus history professor at the University of Akron and author of A Passion for the Land: John F. Seiberling and the Environmental Movement (to be published next year by Kent State University Press). ''Getting the Cuyahoga Valley park created in 1974 only whetted his appetite. He got involved in Alaska and wilderness lands. . . . He was the right man at the right time to get a lot accomplished,'' Nelson said. Doug Scott of Seattle, a wilderness author and policy director for Campaign for America's Wilderness, said Mr. Seiberling should rank among the very top conservationists in the 20th century. Scott worked with Mr. Seiberling on wilderness measures while with the Sierra Club and wrote The Enduring Wilderness: Protecting Our National Heritage Through the Wilderness Act. ''Wilderness was his passion,'' Scott said. ''And that legacy will touch all Americans for generations. . . . He truly was an American giant.'' Over the years, Mr. Seiberling served as chairman of the Interior Committee's public lands and national parks subcommittee and pushed 33 bills for 250 new and expanded wilderness areas in 27 states. In 1980, he and U.S. Rep. Morris Udall, D-Ariz., led the fight to approve federal protection for 103 million acres under the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act. In all, Mr. Seiberling played a key role in preserving 69 million acres of wilderness — that included 54 million acres in Alaska — in addition to 59 million acres of other federal parks, forests and preserves. Mr. Seiberling made his first trip to Alaska in 1975 and came away impressed. In 1977, he held congressional hearings across that state, helping him develop a photo collection of more than 3,000 Alaskan shots. He exhibited his photos in the Capital during the 1978 debate and said the photos helped sway members of Congress. He was widely saluted by national environmental groups for his efforts to save the American wilderness — efforts that earned him opposition from some Western and Alaskan politicians. Bruce Hamilton, deputy executive director for the national Sierra Club, compared the significance of Mr. Seiberling's efforts for Alaska to President Theodore Roosevelt's creation of the national forests. The Alaskan legislation was ''a tribute to Seiberling's persistence and statesmanship,'' he said. ''He was the expert and made quite the difference. . . . Every wilderness advocate in the country knew him and worshipped him,'' Hamilton said in a telephone interview from San Francisco. ''Most considered John Seiberling to be their second congressman.'' Conservationist is born Mr. Seiberling's desire to save wild America may be traced to a childhood experience on a family vacation to an island in Lake Huron. On a return trip, the mainland forest near Hessel, Mich., had disappeared. The giant white pines had been cut to be turned into matchsticks. Later, in a quote still cited by his ex-staffers, Mr. Seiberling said: ''We will never see the land as our ancestors did. But we can understand what made it beautiful and why they lived and died to preserve it. And in preserving it for future generations, we will preserve something of ourselves. If we all have an interest in this land, then we all have a stake in its preservation. There is no more worthwhile cause.'' His associates said the words were reflective of his goals. But Mr. Seiberling was proudest of spearheading the creation of the Cuyahoga Valley park in 1974. In 1971, as a rookie legislator, Mr. Seiberling's efforts to help sponsor legislation to create a national park between Akron and Cleveland went nowhere. In subsequent years, though, he introduced the measure and worked to build public support for saving the Cuyahoga Valley. Debo, the park's superintendent, said Mr. Seiberling ''had the foresight and the ability to galvanize public support to preserve the valley. It was an incredible accomplishment.'' Not everyone supported the idea. The National Park Service didn't think the Cuyahoga Valley deserved federal protection. And even after winning approval in Congress, the legislation came perilously close to dying. With President Gerald Ford on a ski vacation in Colorado, federal officials, opposed to a high-cost urban park, were urging a veto. Mr. Seiberling called Regula, who got an emergency phone call placed to Ford by Akron's Ray Bliss, the influential former national chairman of the Republican Party. Other calls went to U.S. Sens. Robert Taft Jr. and Howard Metzenbaum, as well as former Goodyear Chairman E. J. Thomas. Bliss told Ford that he should sign the legislation if he wanted to win Ohio and to veto it if he wanted to lose Ohio. Ford signed the bill on Dec. 27, 1974. Mr. Seiberling called Ford's approval a Christmas gift for people in Northeast Ohio. In later years, he said the park was far more than he ever expected. Mr. Seiberling also protected the park from Ronald Reagan's secretary of the interior, James Watt, who wanted to eliminate it as a federal park in the 1980s. Mr. Seiberling also played key roles in the 1977 federal surface-mining reclamation act and a 1976 bill enlarging the federal Land and Water Conservation Fund. He also pushed to eliminate acid rain in clean-air legislation. He was unsuccessful in an effort to have federal judges selected on merit instead of political appointment, and to create a youth job corps. He aggressively fought President Reagan over federal budget cuts in the early 1980s. His influence was felt beyond U.S. shores. He played key roles in Congress in the birth of nations: the Republic of the Marshall Islands, the Republic of Palau and the Federated States of Micronesia. His staff saw Mr. Seiberling as ''this cuddly distinguished college professor whom we all loved,'' said Andrew Wiessner, a one-time staffer and now a retired public lands consultant in Colorado. Issues instead of politics Mr. Seiberling was different: He was the nonpolitical congressman, a good and dedicated public servant, Wiessner said. ''He looked at the issues, not the politics,'' Wiessner said ''There was a gentle way about him. He was so scholarly and so thorough'' Long-time Seiberling staffer Loretta Neumann added: ''He really was a Renaissance man, an amazing man, a giant. . . . Everyone who ever worked for him said it was the best job they ever had, and that was true for me, too. . . . He was the right person at the right place at the right time to do the things he did.'' Neumann, who came to Mr. Seiberling's staff from the National Park Service, said he hired her mainly to get the park established. ''At the time, I knew nothing about the workings of Congress.'' she said. ''When I first met him, I told him so. 'Don't worry,' he said. 'I need you to teach me about parks. I can teach you what you need to know about Congress.' '' State Sen. Tom Sawyer, D-Akron, who succeeded Mr. Seiberling in Congress, said he knew Mr. Seiberling ''virtually my entire political life.'' ''He was a commanding figure throughout this community and as soon as I got to Washington, it was clear as it had ever been that he was beloved by the people who knew him best,'' Sawyer said. He had an ''enormous respect for the rule of law and love of nation,'' Sawyer said, and his respect for the environment went beyond Northeast Ohio in a way that ''will be remembered for generations.'' After serving in Congress, Mr. Seiberling returned to Akron to practice law, teach law and direct the University of Akron's Center for Peace Studies for 51/2 years, until mid-1996. He also returned to enjoy the Cuyahoga Valley from his long-time home at the edge of the park in Bath Township. He and his wife later moved to a Copley Township condominium. He earned countless honors over the years, including the Bert A. Polsky Humanitarian Award from the Akron Community Foundation in 1999. He attributed his love of nature to his father, John F. Seiberling Sr. But he frequently said the most influential person in his life was his mother, Henrietta, who died in 1979. His mother was described as a formidable woman of strong moral conviction — a churchgoer who introduced Bill Wilson of New York and Dr. Robert Smith of Akron in 1935. They went on to found Alcoholics Anonymous in Akron. Getting an education Mr. Seiberling attended King Elementary School and Buchtel High School in Akron before going to Staunton Military Academy in Staunton, Va. He graduated from Harvard University in 1941. During World War II, he served in the Army from 1942 to 1946, fighting in Europe. He enlisted as a private and attained the rank of major. He earned the Legion of Merit, the Bronze Star and three Battle Stars. He also earned the Medaille de la Reconnaissance Francaise (France) and the Ordre de Leopold II (Belgium). After his discharge, he earned a law degree at Columbia University in New York in 1949. From 1949 to 1954, he practiced law with Donovan, Leisure, Newton and Irvine in New York City. He joined Goodyear in Akron in 1954 and remained here until he went to Congress in 1971. Locally, Mr. Seiberling was a member of the Akron Regional Development Board and the Akron Metropolitan Housing Authority. He was a three-term president of the Akron-based Tri-County Regional Planning Commission. He was a member of the United Community Council of Summit County, the Stan Hywet Hall Foundation, the United World Federalists of Akron and the Akron Bar Association's World Peace Through Law committee. He was a founder of the Summit County Committee for Peace in Vietnam and a member of the local Sierra Club and the Cuyahoga Valley Association. In 1949, he married Elizabeth ''Betty'' Behr, a Vassar graduate. They shared the same interests, the same priorities, the same outlook for 59 years of marriage. She actually met her future husband while at Vassar through his sister, who was a student there. They had their first date in Paris in 1945 — at an officer's mess. He proposed during his last year of law school in New York. She later told reporters she accepted his proposal in part because he had respect for women's intellectual capabilities. In addition to his wife, he is survived by their three sons, John B. of Washington, D.C., David of Akron and Stephen of Chapel Hill, N.C.; and one grandson, Evan. He also leaves sisters Dorothy Seiberling of Long Island, N.Y., and Mary S. Huhn of Pennsylvania. A memorial service is planned for late August or early September. Billow funeral home in Fairlawn is handling arrangements. - - - - Bob Downing can be reached at 330/996/3745 or (bdowning at thebeaconjournal.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5145. . . . . . . . . . . . Missing citation to "Dr Bob and the Good Old Timers" From: serenityodaat . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2008 5:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hiya group! I´m translating an article on beginner classes http://www.aa-goteborg.se/katrinelund/docs/historyBeginnerclasses.pdf into Swedish. In the beginning of the text it makes a reference to page 261 in "Dr Bob and the Good Old Timers": "In the book 'Dr. Bob and the Good Old-timers' it states on page 261, "Yes, Cleveland's results were the best. Their results were in fact so good that many a Clevelander really though AA had started there in the first place. Over half of the fellowship was from Cleveland up and through the mid-1940s." I've read thru the entire chapter without finding this text... My book is the 23rd printing from 2003. Can anyone please help me finding this text? Thanx! AlkyAndy aka Anders from Gothenburg, Sweden IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5146. . . . . . . . . . . . Who wrote the Foreward to the 2nd edit. of the Big Book? From: bruceken@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2008 9:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who wrote the foreward to the second edition of the Big Book, the longest of the Forewards? As I understand it, the General Service Structure had been set up by 1955 -- before the second edition of the book was published. The question has to do with whether or not the Foreward to the second edition was written by Bill Wilson, or by a General Service Committee -- writers other than Bill -- as it was in later editions. Can anyone answer that question for me? Bruce Kennedy San Francisco IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5147. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Silkworth''s signature missing from the 1st edition BB From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 5:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first edition of the second printing was when his name appeared: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4724 Yes, it was to avoid the potential issue of having his name associated with Alcoholics Anonymous at that time which prevented it from being printed in the first edition. - - - - From: "wantarug" (gttdkt at sbcglobal.net) The various authors did not SIGN their names and their actual signatures were not reproduced in any editions of the Big Book. Don't you really mean author byline instead of signature? Thanks, Dona T Houston IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5148. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Barry L. and Bill W''s copy of the Big Book manuscript From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 9:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII PHOTO OF BARRY LEACH Mel Barger wrote that: > was virtually a son to Lois and accompanied her > or her trips. I took a photo of her greeting > Jack Bailey in Akron in 1978, with Barry > standing behind her. This is the only > photo I have of Barry, and I wish another > was available. > > Mel - - - - Mel, You sent me the photo and I added it to the Barry Leach page: http://www.aabibliography.com/barry_leach_living_sober.html LD Pierce aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5149. . . . . . . . . . . . Larry Jewell - AA in Houston From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2008 4:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me more about Larry J? I know he wrote that the six articles that appeared in the Houston Press and I am familiar with "The First AA Pamphlet". What is Larry's history post 1940? Any info available on fate of the pamphlet? This pamphlet appears to be the origin of "spiritual not religious," printed as "not religious, but spiritual" in the 4th article. Does anyone have any additional information on this? I am trying to research the history of the description of AA as "Spiritual not Religious" as used by either the pioneers such as Larry J or in AA literature. Any help is appreciated. God Bless IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5150. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s morning prayer -- Swedenborgian elements From: ac1799_4 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2008 7:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I'm replying to this question at bottom of this msg: >> ANY ECHOES HERE OF SWEDENBORGIAN LITURGY? >> >> From: Baileygc23@... >> (Baileygc23 at aol.com) >> >> Has this prayer anything to do with >> Swedenborgianism? Here I give you a repost and re-edit with an amplification of statements I made on July 28. I've received two emails from that by members already intrigued by the Swedenborg/Burnham/Wilson connections that they were aware of already. To set this up, Lois and Bill were married in a Swedenborgian church in Brooklyn. Lois' maiden name is Burnham. She was raised in devout Swedenborgian family. Her grampa was a noted translator and scholar in this sect. This New Church was NOT a part of New Thought, as Writings were made in mid-1700s. It maintains that ES received revelations [all knowledge for us from God is revelation, since He is spirit and we are natural] explaining Scriptures at a 'spiritual and the celestial level'. New Church has high view of Bible and high view of Christ as God, so is not part of metaphysical movement, although somehow Swedenborg became associated with birth of metaphysics a century later. I'm a Swedenborgian Christian; I discovered Emanuel Swedenborg and his Writings 3 years ago. I was already a Christian since 1970 and because of the clarities on how faith/truth and charity/good work together, I've moved from a narrower, strident Christianity into Swedenborgian 'faith'. I am also in recovery 8.5 years, and Swedenborg teachings have been helpful past 3 years: such as emphasis on what we in AA call 'service work' & what the New Church calls Uses, or New Church emphasis on what we call 'doing the next right thing'. Yes indeed there are many interesting parallels between how AA works & Swedenborgian concepts and theology. And interestingly, in my life in first 4 years of recovery, AA meetings and steps helped restructure the bricks of my spiritual/religious foundation into an effective 'faith' within my Christianity that Big Book says many of us return to. In fact I don't think God allowed me to find the Writings UNTIL AA had been able to restructure my views on how He worked with us. I would not have been spiritully fit to grasp the Writings. After giving the 3 things in Bill Wilson's prayer that may be Swedenborgian, I AM listing some other AA/Swedenborgian quotes side by side. May they bless and intrigue you as they do me. Anyway to respond to Baileycg23 of June 13 or so, the 3 things that stand out to me that are Swedenborgian in the prayer [posted at bottom] are: 1. the volume Heaven and Hell [probably ES' most read book] discusses all the Societies, Communities in the heavens. Yes there are 3 heavens, and we are grouped according to our Loves and also put with others who are similar to us in spirit, so to speak. So there is that notion of the many mansions being spiritual homes in the heavens, and we have spiritual bodies that inhabit them. Does 'Societies' refer to AA communities here? I have no idea. But it is curious that his prayer references grace to "be discovered by family and friends -- those here and those beyond" - so they would be Societies in the beyond too, wouldn't they? 2. Lois indeed would have loved the end of that prayer (quote: Lois, who remained deeply in love with Bill for her entire adult life, said, years after his death: 'That business about no separation between ourselves is something that I cherish.') as it is an allusion, I believe, to the Swedenborgian teaching that marriage continues after death. [It is suspected by scholars, from my research, that Smith the founder of the Mormons read some Swedenborg, and 'borrowed' this idea. New Thought Movement teachers borrowed from the Writings of Swedenborg too, but didn't keep his intent. A discussion on how and why the New Thought Movement borrowed from and harmed Swedenborg's intent must wait for some other discussion] Anyway, Swedenborg introduced this concept of a united marriage (of spiritual as well as natural bonds continuing in heaven) in 1700s, and his volume Conjugial Love [not conjugal but 'conjugial'] is a beautiful complex description of love, marriage, unity with God, how God works with mankind and so much more. (Swedenborg had to, on occasion, invent new words since none existed for the concepts he had been introduced to in the spirit world.) So in summary you see, Lois would have been well-acquainted with, and comforted by this belief in a reunion with Bill, a marriage in heaven since two continue 'to become one' ideally for eternity. 3. This quote 'May we find and do Thy will in good strength, in good cheer today.' could be a reference to being Useful, being of service to others, getting set free from self by being other-directed. It is significant to me that Bill Wilson would insert such a statement into the family prayer. Swedenborgianism emphasizes changed behavior [reformation] and doing the right thing even if you don't feel like it. When it becomes a part of us, as we get into the later steps, that would equate to Regeneration. We do the right things because we love God and love His freedom. We no longer are doing 'right things' because the sponsor says to, or from fear of consequences, or other 'natural' motives. When we do the right thing in the 'natural' mind and understanding, it opens a reciprocal relationship & flow between me and God. This Reformation evolves into Regeneration in this life as my relationship with God grows and I want to do His Will, rather than having to obey Him [or my sponsor HA]. Now as promised above, here are some Swedenborgian quotes to help you grasp how curiously the AA phrases and concepts mirror what a theologian and seer from 1750 wrote: ============================================ Faith without works is dead. Book of James "Faith without love is dead, and faith with love is living." AC9050 "There is action and more action. 'Faith without works is dead'" Big Book, pg 88 "Faith has to work twenty-four hours a day in and through us, or we perish" Big Book pg. 16 "Now we need more action, without which we find that 'Faith without works is dead'....If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes." Big Book pg 76 "He may be an example of the truth that faith alone is insufficient. To be vital, faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice and unselfish, constructive action." Big Book, pg 93 last paragraph. (I personally wonder if the term 'faith alone' is put here on purpose, as Swedenborg protested the doctrine as being incomplete without good/charity/uses/love accompanying it. Bill would have known of this technical doctrinal phrase not only from Swedenborg via Lois or his own readings, but by discussions with Shoemaker or the many other Christian leaders that influenced him. He rejects 'faith alone' in a crystal clear way, just as Swedenborg does in his masterpiece 2 volume work True Christian Religion) (I'm not trying to stir up any doctrinal debate here; the point is to equate AA literature with literature written 180 years before it) ========================================= ........An easier, softer way....... "You cannot have humility when you love only yourself. Self–love is hard, and love to the Divine is soft. Self–love must be wholly crushed." Spiritual Experiences 4754 Emanuel Swedenborg "The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed." Big Book, pg. 30 =========================================== ......."the drinking life is the only life he can imagine" - AA quote. '...the alcoholic life seems to be the only normal one' xxvi 'The real is distinguished from the not real in this--that the real is actually such as it appears, and that the not real is actually not such as it appears.' Arcana Coelestia 4623 [Latin for Heavenly Secrets or Secrets of Heaven] ============================================ A day at a time: "When we diligently try to follow the truth, as we are given to see it, the Lord inflows with good and when He is present concern for the future is dissipated. Our fears become replaced with a supreme trust in His providence. A newfound confidence in the Lord's power is born, and that confidence inmostly prevails regardless of the trials and misfortunes by which we may be confronted periodically. A person who tries to do what is good places him or herself into "the stream of providence and is carried along constantly towards happier things. Those in the stream of providence are people who trust in the Divine and ascribe everything to Him." (Arcana 8478) Altogether different is it with those who trust in the Divine. Though they have care for the morrow, yet they have it not; for they do not think of the morrow with solicitude, still less with anxiety. Whether they get what they wish or not, they are composed, not lamenting over losses, but being content with their lot. If they become rich, they do not set their hearts upon riches. If they are exalted to honors, they do not look upon themselves as worthier than others. If they become poor, they are not cast down. If their condition be mean, they are not dejected. They know that with those who put their trust in the Divine, all things work toward a happy state to eternity. -- Arcana Coelestia, n._ 8478 ======================================== GOD - Good Orderly Direction - "One receives faith by approaching the Lord, learning truths [as if] from the Word, and living according to them." True Christian Religion 343 Emanuel Swedenborg ========================================== did Dr. Silkworth read Swedenborg? '.......Cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false', pg. xxvi of The Doctor's Opinion: "I once heard spirits speaking together of the fact that whatever is adopted as a principle, no matter what it may be, can be confirmed by innumerable things, until at length, to the man who has confirmed himself, it appears entirely true even though false; and that men can be more easily persuaded of a falsity than of a truth." AC 2477 "A persuasion of falsity extinguishes and as it were suffocates everything spiritual and celestial; as everyone may know from much experience, if he pays attention." AC 806 ========================================== How step 4 works: "...but as soon as a man on self-examination confesses evils to be sins against God because they are contrary to Divine laws and accordingly resolves to desist from them, the Lord opens the spiritual mind, enters the natural by affections of truth and good, enters the reason, and by the reason puts into order what is disordered below in the natural. It is this that strikes the man as a battle, and strikes those who have indulged much in enjoyments of evil as temptation, for when the order of its thinking is inverted the lower mind suffers pain." ~Divine Providence 147 Emanuel Swedenborg ================= How step 7 works: "To the extent that you detest evil, goodness enters you from heaven. To the extent that you detest promiscuity, what is chaste enters; to the extent that you detest frauds and unlawful gains, sincerity and justice enter; to the extent that you detest hatred and revenge, lovingkindness enters; to the extent that you detest lies and blasphemies, truth enters; and to the extent that you detest arrogance, humility before God and love of your neighbor as yourself enter. To shun evil is to do what is good." Apocalypse Explained 803 Emanuel Swedenborg "A person who knows all that is good and all that is true – as much as can be known – but does not resist evils, knows nothing." Apocalypse Explained 1180 Emanuel Swedenborg ========================================== ''..... afraid I will lose something I have, or not get something I want'..... from 12x12 on step 7 "It is not contrary to order to look out for one's self and one's dependents. Those have "care for the morrow" who are not content with their lot, who do not trust in the Divine but themselves, and who regard only worldly and earthly things and not heavenly. With such there prevails universally a solicitude about things future, a desire to possess everything, and to rule over all. They grieve if they do not get what they desire, and suffer torment when they lose what they have. Then they grow angry with the Divine, rejecting it together with everything of faith, and cursing themselves." -- Arcana Coelestia, 8478 ==================================== Trust God, Clean House, Help Others - Dr. Bob Clean House - "Nothing else is required of man than to sweep the house; that is, to reject the cupidities of evil and the derivative persuasions of falsity [i.e., to clear away the earthly matter that chokes and closes]. AC 3142 ========================================== Defining and 'Doing the Next Right Thing': ". . . charity toward the neighbor extends much more widely than to the poor and needy. Charity toward the neighbor consists in doing right in every work,and one's duty in every office." AC 8121 or Arcana Coelestia 8121 [Latin for Heavenly Secrets or Secrets of Heaven] ================================================== WHY THERE IS SATISFACTION IN 'DOING NEXT RIGHT THING': "It is the very feeling of delight itself, inherent in the love of doing good apart from any thought of recompense, that is the reward lasting to eternity." Heavenly Doctrines of the New Jerusalem 236 Friends in AAHL, I could go on and on. I hope that is helpful to some of you. Keith Roloson in Hotlanta - - - - --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com , 'Russ Stewart' wrote: > > 'Pass It On' pages 264 & 265 > > < Bill and Lois Wilson had started the practice > of holding a 'quiet time' each morning .... > Lois described these quiet times: 'They'd > last 15 minutes or so. We were in bed and > we'd get up and I'd make coffee and we'd have > coffee in bed, and then we'd say a prayer > together .... This is the prayer composed by > Bill and recited by the Wilson's at these > times: > > 'Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that > we are from everlasting to everlasting. > Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy bene- > factions to us of light, and of service. > May we find and do Thy will in good strength, > in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present > grace be discovered by family and friends -- > those here and those beyond -- by our > Societies throughout the world, by men and > women everywhere, and among those who must > lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we > know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all > glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou > are everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has > fashioned for us a destiny passing through > Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of > Thee and in no separation between ourselves.'>> > > 'Pass It On,' page 274 note 2: > > < for her entire adult life, said, years after > his death: 'That business about no separation > between ourselves is something that I cherish.'>> > > - - - - > > Original message no. 5060 was from > George Cleveland > (pauguspass at yahoo.com) > > Had a wonderful visit at Stepping Stones last > Friday .... There was a wonderful prayer typed > out and lying on the bed in the upstairs > bedroom. It was said to be a prayer Bill used > in the mornings .... what source suggests > it was his morning prayer? > > - - - - > > ANY ECHOES HERE OF SWEDENBORGIAN LITURGY? > > From: Baileygc23@... > (Baileygc23 at aol.com) > > Has this prayer anything to do with [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5151. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Swedenborgianism: Lois W.''s grandfather''s book From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2008 12:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Lois and Bill were married January 24, 1918 at the Swedenborgian Church of the New Jerusalem in Brooklyn, NY. Her grandfather performed the ceremony and her brother Rogers served as best man. Cheers Arthur - - - - Original Message from: mdingle76 I thought it would be of interest for the group to know that Lois Wilson's grandfather (who was a reverend in the Swedenborgian Church - the Church of New Jerusalem), wrote a book called "Discrete Degrees," which can been viewed on http://www.stepstudy.org Matt D. - - - - STEPSTUDY.ORG GIVES A LINK TO THIS SITE: - - - - http://www.theisticscience.org/books/burnham/index.htm DISCRETE DEGREES IN SUCCESSIVE AND SIMULTANEOUS ORDER ILLUSTRATED BY DIAGRAMS BY THE REV. N.C. BURNHAM PHILADELPHIA THE ACADEMY OF THE NEW CHURCH 1821 WALLACE STREET 1887 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5152. . . . . . . . . . . . Margaret Whaley died July 27, 2008 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/4/2008 2:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Margaret Whaley (wife of Searcy Whaley) From: "Doug B." (dougb at aahistory.com) Margaret B. Whaley passed away July 27, 2008, at the age of 96, after a life of great joy, friendship and service to others. She and her deceased husband, Searcy R. Whaley, founder in the mid-fifties of hospitals and clinics for alcoholics, had both been long time residents of Dallas, Texas. Margaret resided at Presbyterian Village North in Dallas at the time of her death. She was born April 28, 1912 in St. Louis, Missouri, to Mr. and Mrs. F.W. Bettle. As a young child Margaret and her family moved to Big Spring, Texas, where she grew up and graduated from high school. She was installed into the Order of Eastern Star in Big Spring, Texas in 1944. She was one of the earliest members of the Al-Anon family group. Margaret was a legal secretary in Big Spring before her marriage to Searcy in 1934. She and Searcy were married for more that 68 years before he passed away in 2003. Both were members of First Baptist Church Dallas. Margaret is survived by her brother Clayton Bettle and wife Alta Mae, nephew Jim Bettle and wife Deborah of Delaware, nephew Dick Bettle and wife Liz of Texas, niece Kay Beaird of Texas, and niece Doris Jean Yates of California. A viewing and visitation will be held Friday, August 1 from 12:00 noon until 1:30 PM at Sparkman/Hillcrest Funeral Home. A brief service at 2:00 PM will follow in the chapel in celebration of Margaret’s life. Interment will be at Mount Hope Cemetery in Anson, Texas on Saturday, August 2, 2008, at 10:00 AM In lieu of flowers, the family suggests that donations be made in Margaret’s name to Texas Clinic and Hospital for Alcoholism, PO Box 35865, Dallas, TX 75235. Yours in the fellowship, Doug Barrie http://www.aahistory.com - - - - From the moderator: For her husband's obituary, see Message 1381 From Ed Adami Searcy Whaley (1910 - 2003) obituary in the Fort Worth Star Telegram 10/2/2003 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1381 A search of the message board for "Searcy" will turn up 38 messages talking about him and his role in AA history. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5153. . . . . . . . . . . . Are there any Emmet Fox recordings? From: pauguspass . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2008 7:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've been numbing out my fingers trying to find any recording of Emmet Fox. With so many talks given, one would think some kind of recording survives somewhere. Any thoughts from the group? George Cleveland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5154. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harper & Brothers and the Big Book From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 4:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Bailey In April 1938 (possibly May/June) Bill W wrote to Dr Bob that he had dictated and mimeographed two book chapters. They were "There Is A Solution" and "Bill's Story." Bill suggested to Dr Bob that his wife Anne write a chapter portraying the wife of an alcoholic (Florence R of NY was also under consideration to write the chapter). As it later turned out, the chapter "To Wives" was written by Bill W much to the dismay of his wife Lois. Bill informed Dr Bob that nearly everyone in NY favored the book title "Alcoholics Anonymous." He asked Dr Bob how he felt about forming a charitable corporation called "Alcoholics Anonymous." Again, this was almost a year prior to publication of the Big Book. The same two chapters were sent as a prospectus to a number of people to show what the book would be like and to help in fundraising for the book project. One of the recipients, Dr Esther L Richards (of The Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore) in a July 18, 1938 letter wrote a very favorable reply to Bill W regarding the 2-chapter book prospectus. The name given in the prospectus for the book was "Alcoholics Anonymous." Dr Richards also suggested to Bill W "I think you should get an A No. 1 physician who has a wide knowledge of the alcoholics medical and social problems to write an introduction. Shortly after Dr Richardson's recommendation, Dr William D Silkworth wrote a July 27, 1938 letter of support for use in fundraising for the book. It was later incorporated into the Big Book chapter "The Doctor's Opinion" along with extracts from a medical journal article that Silkworth later published in July 1939 titled "Psychological Rehabilitation of Alcoholics." Exman met with Bill W in September 1938 so there may have been more material to review but I believe it was still the chapters "There Is A Solution" and "Bill's Story" that Exman read and used to form the basis of his making an advance offer to Bill on the rights to the book. Cheers Arthur - - - - From: James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) I am given to undestand based on a talk given by Jimmy Burwell that was recorded in 1957 that the two chapters presented to Harper & Brothers were Bill and Bob's stories. According to Jimmy Burwell these were the first two chapters written. Jimmy Burwell also claimed during this recorded talk that an offer of three thousand dollars was made to complete the book, and that it was suggested by Harper and Brothers that the book should include an outline for a program of recovery (aka How It Works). The AA conference approved literature Pass It On and AA Comes of Age gives a slightly different account of this story and states that an advance of only $1500 dollars was made to complete the book. Jim F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5155. . . . . . . . . . . . Harper and the Big Book: Bill W''s original story From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2008 4:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question was asked, what were the first two chapters of the Big Book that Bill W presented to the publishers? The answer seems to be "Bill's Story" (originally meant to be Chapter 2) and "There Is a Solution" (originally meant to be Chapter 1). If you would like to read or download the original version of "Bill's Story," go to http://www.4dgroups.org and click 'Documents/Links,' then 'Documents': http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_weblinks&catid=14&Itemid=23 Then click on "Bill's Original Story" http://www.4dgroups.org/Files/Docs/billorig.pdf I also have copy of the original version of "There Is A Solution" but it is not yet on our Fourth Dimension Group website. These extremely long and wordy drafts were written in the spring of 1938. Bob S. Robert Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, Indiana 47347 765/935/0130 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5156. . . . . . . . . . . . Spirituality and religion - afterthought From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2008 3:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In its series World Spirituality, SCM Press - "the UK's best-known publisher of academic theology" - included the title Spirituality and the Secular Quest (1996). The introduction asserts: "Being religious is not a necessary condition for being spiritual." There are contributions on, e.g, sources in ancient Greece and Rome, aestheticism, new age, feminist and gay spiritualities, psychotherapy - and, in a chapter written by Ernest Kurtz, 12 Step Spirituality, in which he says, "As a true practice, AA's 'sobriety' consists in living the Twelve Steps. Such sobriety is a synonym for spirituality, even for what others term sanctity." He adds, "How do adherents to Twelve Step programs understand 'spiritual rather than religious'? Twelve Step programs do offer a vision classically termed 'religious'. But expressions of religion historically seem to involve: (1) doctrines that require belief; (2) rules that command or prohibit actions; (3) an institutional authority that formulates the doctrines and enforces the rules; and (4) worship and ritual that express reverence for the professed source of all the above. Twelve Step programs require none of these ..." LAURIE ANDREWS IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5157. . . . . . . . . . . . Numbers question: Jack Alexander vs. Rollie Hemsley From: Michael F. Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 5:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, In E. Kurtz "Not God" on page 101 it says that after publication of Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post story (March 1941) AA's membership went from 2,000 to 8,000 in the last ten months of that year. In Sally & David Brown's biography of Marty Mann on page 181 it says that as a result of Rollie Hemsley's anonymity break in 1940 "he brought more people into AA than did the Saturday Evening Post article a year later." I'm either missing something or one of these statements can't be right. Can anyone shed some light on this? Thank you, Mike Margetis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5158. . . . . . . . . . . . Historical Timeline on AA.org web Site From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 7:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For the AAHistoryLovers who haven't checked it out yet, please visit the link below and view a very nicely constructed AA history timeline (with images). It also has a search function. http://aa.org/aatimeline/ I believe the work was the brainchild of Amy Filiatreau, past Archives Director at AAWS. The staff that created the timeline have done quite a nice job. Also check out the link http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=6 Visit the AA.org web site and check it out. There has been a splendid upgrade to the design and aesthetics of the web pages - quite nice. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5159. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob`s Big Book From: Tommy . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/6/2008 7:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know what happened to Dr. Bob's Big Book? tks Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5160. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Larry Jewell - AA in Houston From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 10:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was send the L.J. articles with the following footnote. Hope it is helpful: Larry Jewell came to Houston from Cleveland with only a Big Book and a Spiritual Experience resulting from having taken the Steps while hospitalized. His Sponsors were Dr. Bob Smith & Clarence Snyder. He had not attended an A.A. meeting before coming to Houston. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5161. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Larry Jewell - AA in Houston From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2008 10:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Larry J did a remarkable job in getting AA started in Texas. The text below is from Bob P's unpublished AA history manuscript. From what I've been able to research, it appears to be factual with the exception of the year stated for Larry's death. Sadly Larry returned to drinking and the use of narcotics and it led to his death in 1944 (not 1943 as stated below). Bob P's summary further fails to mention that Larry's Houston Press articles also attracted the first Texas woman AA member, Benita C, who later married Larry J. In April 1940, the Alcoholic Foundation reprinted Larry J's Houston Press articles as AA's first pamphlet. One of Larry's articles uses the phrase "not religious, but spiritual" but in other places/articles he uses the term "religious" in a very positive context to describe the program (the word "religious" didn't seem to have the pejorative context then that many regrettably assign to it today - care was always exercised to explain that AA did not identify itself with any specific religious denomination). If you take into account Dr Silkworth's July 1939 Lancet article which was also included (in its entirety in AA's first pamphlet) the word "religious" is used frequently and in quite a positive manner to describe the nature of AA's program of recovery. The pamphlet also included Dr Fosdick's review of the Big Book where he states "The core of their whole procedure is religious." Cheers Arthur From Bob P: The colorful early history of A.A. in the Lone Star State led Bill W. to refer to it at the St. Louis Convention as "the astonishing state of Texas." The story begins in Cleveland in 1939, where a newspaperman, Larry J., had "drunk himself into the gutter." Louis Seltzer, editor of the Cleveland Press, remembered him and sent a search party to find him, offering to pay for his hospital recovery. They found him in freezing weather with no coat on, one lung collapsed from earlier tuberculosis and the other with a tube sticking out of it through his chest. At the sanatorium, Larry slowly recovered from d.t.'s, malnutrition, exposure and exhaustion. Told he would be better off where the weather was warmer, he boarded a train for Houston with a copy of Alcoholics Anonymous in hand upon reading it en route, he had a spiritual experience and determined to try to help alcoholics when he arrived. He sought out Allan C. Bartlett, editor of the Houston Press, and after a two-hour talk, persuaded him to run a series of articles on A.A. which Larry J. wrote anonymously. Impressed by his creative brilliance, Bartlett hired him as an editorial writer. The articles attracted the attention of Bishop Clinton S. Quinn (Episcopal), who became an enthusiastic supporter and immediately arranged for Larry to talk to meetings of church officials in Houston and other towns in his diocese. They also came to the attention of Bill W., who wrote Larry a congratulatory letter from New York. And most importantly, the articles attracted some alcoholics. One of these was Roy Y. from San Antonio, who had recently sobered up in Los Angeles A.A. Another was Ed H., a great help to Larry in getting A.A. started, who was unable to stay sober himself. The first Houston A.A. meeting was held March 15, 1940, in a room in the YWCA Bldg. The group continued to meet on Tuesdays with as many as 25 attending -- but often a different 25 each time! Ed H. and Roy Y. tried to educate ministers and doctors without much success until they were referred to Dr. David Wade at Galveston State Hospital. Dr. Wade was to remain a good friend of A.A. Later, he and Ed H. were to help found A.A. in Austin (see below). The Jack Alexander article in March 1941 brought in many inquiries, one of them a defrocked preacher, Howell S. and his beloved wife Molly, who also attended the meetings. Another was Ed F. who became particularly active in Twelfth Stepping the flood of prospects, along with Ed H. Early members from that time were: Clarence "Bull" D., Earl D., Joe F., George P. (who later helped carry A.A. to Albuquerque), and an enthusiastic and energetic woman, Esther E. (who moved to Dallas and helped start A.A. there as well as afterward in San Antonio). By the end of '41, there were 85 members. Dissension developed when a transplant from Baltimore A.A. told the group that in the East the group elected a steering committee which handled its affairs. Founder Larry J. had been running the Houston group with something of an iron hand, so the group decided to elect a steering committee. Larry, full of resentment, pulled out of the group. Ed H. went with him, "not because I thought he was right -- I thought he was wrong -- but because he needed a friend." Larry slipped and was hospitalized. Soon afterward, Ed H. went back to drinking. But by this time, A.A. was firmly rooted in Houston. Larry came back to the old group in 1943, but died of his old ills later that year [note: Larry died in 1944]. Ed H. went into the Navy, where he stayed drunk as much as he could. Roy Y. went into the Army and was transferred to Tampa, Florida, where he started an A.A. group. He remained sober the rest of his life and was still active and well in 1985. Esther E. took over as leader of the Houston group in 1942, and Hortense L. succeeded her when she moved to Dallas. The group met in the basement of the Ambassador Hotel in 1941. During the war years it met in other places: the M.& M. Building, Franklin St., Milam St., Dooley St., and finally beginning in '46 at 3511 Travis St. where it remained. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jax760 Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 3:46 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Larry Jewell - AA in Houston Can anyone tell me more about Larry J? I know he wrote that the six articles that appeared in the Houston Press and I am familiar with "The First AA Pamphlet". What is Larry's history post 1940? Any info available on fate of the pamphlet? This pamphlet appears to be the origin of "spiritual not religious," printed as "not religious, but spiritual" in the 4th article. Does anyone have any additional information on this? I am trying to research the history of the description of AA as "Spiritual not Religious" as used by either the pioneers such as Larry J or in AA literature. Any help is appreciated. God Bless ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5162. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry L.''s claim for royalties for Living Sober From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/4/2008 11:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have copies of some correspondence between Barry L. and the General Service Board that were in Dr. Bob's collection at Brown University. There is a letter from Barry to George Dorsey on March 7, 1982 (Cc: Robert Pearson). There is a reply to Barry from John Bragg on May 25, 1982 (Cc: Robert Pearson). Finally, there is a letter from Barry to Gordon Patrick, dated February 14, 1983. - - - - The first letter outline Barry's claim to royalties from the sale of Living Sober. The second letter basically says "you negotiated a deal for $4,000 in 1974 and you're not getting any more." The last letter concludes with Barry stating that he is left with no choice but to file a claim for $153,304.45 in retroactive royalties. Chris _____________________________________ From: Mel B. Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Barry L. and Bill W's copy of the Big Book manuscript Hi Rick, I was pleased to read this additional information about Barry L., the manuscript, etc. If his heirs made a bundle out of the manuscript, it is probably poetic justice. I think Barry did feel he deserved more pay for what services he had rendered to AA World Services and Lois supported him in this effort. It failed, however, and Barry died without getting any additional bucks (at least to my knowledge). He was virtually a son to Lois and accompanied her or her trips. I took a photo of her greeting Jack Bailey in Akron in 1978, with Barry standing behind her. This is the only photo I have of Barry, and I wish another was available. Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5163. . . . . . . . . . . . Margarita L. From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 8:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know anything, beyond the few details supplied in "Not God," about Margarita L.? Kurtz describes her as having been a student of Jung and "Wilson's most proximate continuing contact with Jung's thought." Wilson exchanged letters with her, and she is mentioned in a couple of letters to others. I get the feeling she was American, but am beginning to doubt even that. Most people are findable, in some way, on ancestry.com and under that name I can't turn up a plausible trace of her. The name doesn't match anyone mentioned in Jungian sources, either, but those are of course not comprehensive. There is a "Margaret" who would fit quite well, but no evidence she was ever called "Margarita." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5164. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr Bob`s Big Book From: rick tompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 6:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Akron Intergroup Archives has one of the final multilith printings of the draft Big Book that was the property of Dr. Bob. It has no ‘red pencil’ edits in the fashion of the “printer’s manuscript.” Rick, Illinois - - - - Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Bob`s Big Book Does anyone know what happened to Dr. Bob's Big Book? tks Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5165. . . . . . . . . . . . Timeline on Marty Mann and Yale From: Ron Roizen . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 2:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Arthur posted the following link to an AA chronology web site yesterday: http://aa.org/ aatimeline/ I took a look at it. Under the year 1944 is offered, on one panel, a cameo description of the launching of Marty Mann's organization and its relationship to the Yale alcohol science group. The text says in part: "On behalf of the NCEA [Mann's new organiza- tion], Marty embarks on a nationwide tour to tell of her struggle with alcoholism." Cameos, of course, leave out a lot. Yet, this sentence leaves one to wonder why the Yale alcohol science group, which funded Mann's and her organization's activities from 1944-1949, would underwrite her endeavor. Below is a passage from an essay I published in a book about five years ago, which may clarify the matter a little (the full stand-alone essay is available online at http://www.roizen.com/ron/postrepeal.htm ). Thanks. Ron Roizen Wallace, Idaho In 1942, public relations specialist Dwight Anderson (1942) further developed this alcoholism theme by suggesting that the idea afforded an excellent symbol with which to clarify the differences between the new scientific approach to alcohol and the dry and wet mindsets. Two years later, in October, 1944, E.M. Jellinek and Marty Mann sought to conjoin Anderson's disease concept focus with what the Yale science group regarded as an emergent human resource in AA's potential for rapid, national growth. The Yale-based group's idea was to use the disease concept theme as a means for organizing a national, grassroots organization that would offer information and referral, advice to alcoholics and their families, and -- not least importantly -- generate financial support for new scientific research. AA, and particularly the families of AA members, would thus provide a resource for the emergent alcohol science not unlike the relationship between American Cancer Society (or other single-disease-advocacy organizations) and cancer research.12 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5166. . . . . . . . . . . . When did Bill W meet Rowland H in person? From: terry walton . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2008 4:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good Afternoon, Is there any documented history of when Bill Wilson met and talked to Rowland Hazard to hear what conversations Rowland and Carl Jung had? The Big Book uses statements made from Carl Jung to Rowland. Where would Bill have heard this from? Directly from Rowland, or did he rely on second hand information from Ebby? We know Bill thanked Carl Jung for the forming of step 1 in his talks in 1960 made to the clergy. And he thanked Carl Jung directly in his 1961 letter. Is there any Oxford Group history to show when Bill met and learned this from Rowland, and what happened in the offices of Carl Jung? Thank you, Terry - - - - From the moderator: See http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html The story of how the AA movement was begun, starts with a wealthy alcoholic named Rowland Hazard (1881-1945) who traveled to Zurich in 1926 and became a patient of the famous Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung. Jung finally told Rowland that the only way alcoholics of his sort could stop drinking was to immerse thems- elves in the spiritual life. But like a typical alcoholic, Rowland ignored his advice, and had to go through seven more years of misery (his drinking nearly killed him on his hunting trip to Afica later on) before he was willing to seek a spiritual answer. Recent research by Amy Colwell Bluhm Ph.D. and Cora Finch has established that Rowland arrived in Zurich in May 1926 (not 1931, the date given in the older AA literature). See Bluhm's article "Verification of C.G. Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the American Psychological Association's journal History of Psychology in November 2006 and Cora Finch's long account of Rowland Hazard's life and struggles with alcoholism at stellarfire.org: http://www.stellarfire.org/ By 1933, Rowland was drinking to the point where he could not cope with even simple everyday life. He sought help from a therapist named Courtenay Baylor, who was associated with the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club. This was the only early twentieth century group other than Alcoholics Anonymous which had had any notable success in getting alcoholics sober and keeping them sober. Like Alcoholics Anonymous, the EM and JC combined spirituality and psychological help through a simple kind of lay therapy. See Richard M. Dubiel, "The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous": http://hindsfoot.org/kdub2.html Baylor pushed Rowland into taking Jung's advice seriously. They were too far from Boston for Rowland to become actively involved in the Emmanuel Movment and the Jacoby Club, so he became actively involved instead in an upperclass Protestant evangelical movement called the Oxford Group, and finally got sober. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) P.S. The traditional oversimplied AA account (written in documents coming out of New York AA) ignored the role of the Emmanuel Movement and Jacoby Club in early AA history, and tended to credit the Oxford Group for almost everything that happened, in many situations where there were other important influences and sources involved. The first Boston AA group began meeting at the home of the Jacoby Club, for example, and was initially bound to the Jacoby Club in the same way that early Akron AA was bound to the Oxford Group. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5167. . . . . . . . . . . . Actual date of Bill W''s Winchester Cathedral visit. From: iouaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/11/2008 3:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It must be getting quite close to the 90th anniversary of this event. I know it is not the same gravestone as Bill W saw but it would be nice to walk aaround this cathedral and think "If Bill W had not walked around here 90 years ago today..." So how close can this date be pinpointed?? Phil IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5168. . . . . . . . . . . . Tradition 8 and convention speaker "riders" From: stockholmfellowship . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2008 8:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the entertainment business there is a contractual addendum for performance/concert contracts called a "rider". This is the part of the contract that stipulates the special requirement of the performer for that gig. Most famously, many have heard of the bowl of green -- and only green -- M&Ms in the dressing room. Often times it includes certain class of travel, entourage allowances, and a long menu of top shelf liquor for their private backstage bar. I have done service on many AA conventions in several cities over the years of my sobriety. This past year I have gotten more and more dismayed at the "riders" for AA convention speakers. There have been demands for first-class travel, luxury suite or other expensive hotel accommodations, lofty meal or per diem allowances, several days advance accommodations, entertainment requests, and travel for family members and/or sponsors or sponsees. The more fancy the demands of a sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous to come to a city to tell their experience, strength and hope, the more I fear "professionalism" and the weakening of our 8th tradition. - - - - THE HISTORICAL QUESTIONS I AM ASKING: What precedent is there for traveling and accommodating speakers for AA conventions? Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob have any special or luxury needs? Did Lois or Ann have to come with them and, if so, was it in cooperation with them participating in an Al-Anon meeting during the same convention? (A necessary distinction, I feel, from a demand to travel non-Al-Anon family on vacation.) How does GSO shuttle our Trustees of AA to work conferences? How do the main speakers for the International Convention travel? Should/Must all speakers receive the same travel and accommodations? - - - - Please, I do not want to open a discussion into what controversies speakers get into from the podium or anonymity breaks in promoting speakers on posters and such. I would appreciate some background on the balance of Tradition 8 and requests by speakers before they agree to speak at AA conventions. Thank you for any AA history on this issue. ________________________________________ From the moderator: Please let us confine ourselves to answering the specific historical questions which were asked. The questions simply concern how things were actually done with Bill W. and Dr. Bob and Lois and Anne, and how things are actually done with AA Trustees, speakers at the International Conventions, and so on. All simply matter-of-fact questions. General opinions and interpretations of how the AA traditions ought to be interpreted need to be posted in an AA discussion group, such as (for example) the Common Solution AA discussion group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AA_Common_Solution_Group/ We all know how to preach lengthy sermons, and talk about how we think things OUGHT to be done, but please, with 1854 members in the group, nobody would have time to read them all, no matter how inspiring and edifying they all were :-) Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5169. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and Rowland H. From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2008 10:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Rowland H. was a Vestryman of Calvary Church 1938-40 and active in the Businessmen's Group of the OG with Shep (until Shep ran for Congress in 1940?); Bill W. was active at Calvary in 1935-6 and maybe '37; When Rowland had a relapse in '36, his mother suggested to his brother Pier that they get in touch with the Calvary OG people because they had helped before (?1934-5), which may be the first time any non-AA suggested someone get in touch with Bill W or his friends about alcoholism. It's possible Bill heard Rowland's story directly from Rowland in 1934-5 or even 1936-7. We know he heard part of it (including the implied 1931 date) from Cebra (in fact there's a recording at GSO of Bill's 1954 conversation with Cebra and his wife Lucette that includes quite a bit on Rowland), possibly from Shep -- and of course Cebra may have gotten it from Shep. The best book on Bill's 1930s contacts with Rowland may be Dick B's NEW LIGHT ON ALCOHOLISM: GOD, SAM SHOEMAKER, AND AA (rev ed Kihei 1999). If that doesn't give the desired information on personal contacts between Bill and Rowland, Dick B may have found something since 1999. It's possible Cora Finch on the HistoryLovers may have something also. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5170. . . . . . . . . . . . Drinking Bay Rum? From: rollemupjohnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2008 12:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone direct me to any AA literature discussing drinking "Bay Rum"? I'm sure I've heard it before, but can't find it. Thanks in advance, John K., ( JKELL13@bellsouth.net ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5171. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Bob`s Big Book From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2008 4:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA archives or Brown University? I thought that Smithy sold a copy of the Big Book to AA. The price I remember was $25,000. But searching to verify the fact, I could only come across something from Brown University saying they had Dr Bob's papers and the Big Book and coffee pot. I am sure that I would have heard this when I was on AA committees some twenty years or so ago .... but ??? Possibly you can correct me, if I am in error. George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5172. . . . . . . . . . . . Sermon on The Mount publishing code numbers From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2008 9:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In trying to research the different editions of Emmet Fox's book, "The Sermon on the Mount," I learned that the editions that they used in New york and Akron (1934 & 1935) did not have the chapter about The Lord's Prayer. This intrigued me as to what the letters below the Copyright information designates and what the sequence of their combinations actually mean. Does anyone know of or can refer me to a resource that describes this numbering/lettering system? Thanx, Fred IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5173. . . . . . . . . . . . Sample inventory on p. 65 of the Big Book From: johnhartie . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/16/2008 11:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is the inventory real on page 65 of the Big Book? If it is, whose is it? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5174. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H. From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2008 3:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wasn't Rowland H the person whom Bill W described as probably having too many sherries at a junior league coalition, or something like that, when he was first introduced to the Oxford group? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5176. . . . . . . . . . . . Anne Smith''s Journal From: Ralph Cova . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2008 10:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not long ago I was privileged to come into possession of a copy of Anne Ripley Smith's Journal 1933-1939. It is the Journal she kept and shared with Dr. Bob, Bill W., and the early people in the Alcoholics Anonymous movement. It is supposed to have come from AA's General Service Office in New York City. I received 79 pages of which 28 are handwritten, of which some appear to be duplicated. There are 51 typed pages that Dr. Bob and Anne's daughter Sue Smith-Windows typed. On the written pages I have tried to duplicate it as it was written, but there are some areas that are just not decipherable. When the original Journal was copied, there were pages where some of the information on the pages was cut off during the duplicating process. I have not tried to alter or put in words even when I thought I might know what was intended to be said. I will leave that up to you to fill in the blanks. Eventually I will scan the complete document as I received it and make those available also. - - - - From the moderator: Since we cannot put attachments to AAHistoryLovers messages, I have posted a copy of these two transcripts (which are in the form of Adobe Acrobat .PDF files) at http://hindsfoot.org/annesmth.html All those who wish, may take a look at the two transcripts there. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5177. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sermon on The Mount publishing code numbers From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2008 8:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Re-sent with corrections At 08:54 8/17/2008, Fred wrote: >In trying to research the different editions >of Emmet Fox's book, "The Sermon on the Mount," >I learned that the editions that they used >in New york and Akron (1934 & 1935) did not >have the chapter about The Lord's Prayer. > >This intrigued me as to what the letters below >the Copyright information designates and what >the sequence of their combinations actually >mean. > >Does anyone know of or can refer me to a resource >that describes this numbering/lettering system? > That is the code Harpers used to indicate when the book was printed. It was explained on this list very well not too long ago, but I can't find the post right now. I recorded the following. It was in a nicer form, but my cpu won't reproduce it: Harper & Brothers. Prior to 1912, the date on the title page should match the last date on the copyright page. Began stating "First Edition" on the copyright page in 1922. A letter code for the month and year the book was printed, which would actually be earlier than the official publication date, was introduced in 1912. In most cases for first editions published between 1912 and 1922, the letter code for the year on the copyright page should match (or precede) the date on the title page. Months: A=January E=May I=September B=February F=June K=October C=March G=July L=November D=April H=August M=December Years: M=1912 B=1927 R=1942 G=1957 N=1913 C=1928 S=1943 H=1958 O=1914 D=1929 T=1944 I=1959 P=1915 E=1930 U=1945 K=1960 Q=1916 F=1931 V=1946 L=1961 R=1917 G=1932 W=1947 M=1962 S=1918 H=1933 X=1948 N=1963 T=1919 I=1934 Y=1949 O=1964 U=1920 K=1935 Z=1950 P=1965 V=1921 L=1936 A=1951 Q=1966 W=1922 M=1937 B=1952 R=1967 X=1923 N=1938 C=1953 S=1968 Y=1924 O=1939 D=1954 Z=1925 P=1940 E=1955 A=1926 Q=1941 F=1956 My printing of Sermon on the Mount is coded K-P, so it was printed in October, 1935. The first printing of the 12x12 is coded D-C, indicating March, 1953. I had not heard that the chapter on the Lord's Prayer was left out of the original versions. When I was in prep school in the mid-50s, we had a vesper service before dinner and every year the Headmaster would give a series of talks from Fox on the Lord's Prayer. The book brought back fond memories when I arrived in A.A. and read it. I would be interested in when the addition was made. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5178. . . . . . . . . . . . Sgt. Bill S. passed away at 1 p.m. yesterday From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2008 7:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Swegan, the chief spokesman for the wing of early A.A. which emphasized the psychological aspects of the program, passed away at 1 p.m. on Sunday, August 17, 2008. Born June 29, 1918, sober July 5, 1948, died August 17, 2008 90 years old, sober 60 years In A.A. circles, Bill Swegan was a close associate of Mrs. Marty Mann, Yev Gardner, E. M. Jellinek, and Searcy Whaley. Survived by his children, as well as his wife Mary, the love of his life, whose father was the noted psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West. Bill Swegan and Mary's father worked together to create the pioneering alcoholism treatment program at Lackland in the 1950's. Notes of condolence can be sent to Bill and Mary's home address: William E. Swegan 152 Bear Flag Road Sonoma, California 95476 See Bill's article "The Psychology of Alcoholism" at: http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html along with the little pamphlet he used to hand out to alcoholics who entered his AA-based treatment program: http://hindsfoot.org/BSV01Thr.html For photos of Bill, Mary, and Dr. West, see: http://www.geocities.com/glennccc@sbcglobal.net/aapix02.html http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html Bill was a dear friend, a truly good man, and I am going to miss him more than words could ever say. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5179. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H. From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2008 5:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No, I think that was OG member "Shep" who visited Bill either in Towns or Brooklyn with Ebby in 1934. Tom W. On Aug 15, 2008, at 6:12 PM, Baileygc23@aol.com wrote: > Wasn't Rowland H the person whom Bill W > described as probably having too many sherries > at a junior league coalition, or something like > that, when he was first introduced to the > Oxford group? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5180. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H. From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2008 12:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Shep Cornell was the putative sherry-sipper. The Bill Wilson quote about sherries at the cotillion can be found on pages 17 and 118 of Not God by Ernest Kurtz: "pantywaist[s] whose nearest exposure to alcoholism has been going wild one night on too many sherries at a Junior League cotillion." Kurtz cites Robert Thompsen's Bill W. pp.211-12 as his source. Rowland wasn't singled out by Bill Wilson, but Rowland's patrician background would have made him suspicious to Bill. Wilson seems to have been more irritated by "Ivy League[r]" Shep Cornell, one of the three Oxford Group members who rescued Ebby in Vermont, and who also accompanied Ebby to a followup visit to Bill in Towns Hospital in 1934. John Lee Pittsburgh On Fri, 8/15/08, Baileygc23 at aol.com wrote: Wasn't Rowland H the person whom Bill W described as probably having too many sherries at a junior league coalition, or something like that, when he was first introduced to the Oxford group? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5181. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob / Anne, Bill / Lois, trustees, speakers at internationals From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2008 1:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This can be only a partial answer to the questions raised on payment for travelers to AA functions. On Anne and Dr Bob at Conventions, etc., of course Anne died the year before the 1950 International, and Bob was driven over for his brief appearance (and the registration fee was $1.50, for what that's worth). When Bob and Anne went up to the Camp Karephree Founders' Day frolics, they drove, and stayed over with friends. When Bob came east in 1939 (I think it was), he and Anne stayed at Bill and Kathleen R's in Hackettstown. After that I believe they stayed with Bill and Lois or with family or with other AA friends (or possibly at an Inn in St Johnsbury?) -- no AA payments. The files should show the degree to which Bill's and Lois's expenses were underwritten by AA at the Internationals, and then Lois's. The Trustees at their Quarterly meetings at the Crowne Plaza in recent years have their rooms paid for by GSO (or AAWS/Grapevine) as a bloc (cheaper that way), and are offered reimbursement for travel and parking (but I recall being told that they were told the CP Parking Garage was too expensive so use the cheaper Days' Inn garage down on the next corner). Non-AA Speakers at the Conventions have, from the evidence I've seen, been put up as cheaply as possible; I don't know their per-diem. AA Members on panels have been assumed to be there for themselves -- generally no reimbursement and take what you get on quarters. The local Area where I live voted not to cover spouses' expenses at the Convention/Assembly back in 1998: I can't say if that still holds but suspect it does. Our History & Archives Gathering has on a couple of occasions put featured speakers up for a night at a Holiday Inn Express ($75) or approximate equivalent, and once paid full and once partial expenses for long-distance bus transportation to a couple of far-travelers -- but Mel B. drove himself from Toledo to Harrisburg at his own expense, and Glenn C. twice from South Bend to Lebanon, Pennsylvania. Back around the end of WW2, Joe F. did offer to fly Bill W. to Karephree in the midst of Bill's depression -- but that would have been Joe's private gift to Bill (who was too depressed to come in any case). And over the years anecdotal evidence indicates quite a number of travelers have declined to have their ways paid by AA or even by members of AA (except, by richer members, in cases of extreme financial exigency). - - - - The original message was 5168 "Tradition 8 and convention speaker 'riders'" from at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5168 - - - - From: charles Knapp (cdknapp at pacbell.net) Hello Group, When Bill came to speak in Southern California, there were any number of members that would have been thrilled to put Bill or Bill and Lois up in their home during their stay. If they were in the San Diego area they oftentime they stayed with Bill's mother or Jimmy and Rosa Burwell. If in the Los Angeles area in the 1940's they stayed with some of AA pioneers such as Doc H., Pete C., Cliff W., and Barney H. Doc H. had a cabin in the San Bernardino mountains that Bill stayed at on more than one occasion. Starting around the late 1940's and early 1950's Bill spent most of his visits at Chuck C.'s house. After Chuck got sober he did very well financially and had a big home overlooking the Pacific Ocean in Laguna Beach. Bill said he felt as if he could really relax while at Chuck's place. After the 1955 International Convention in St Louis Bill came out and stayed about a week at Chuck's home. I have only heard of one time that Bill and Lois' traveling expenses were paid by local members and that was their visit in 1947. Several groups pitched in to bring Bill and Lois to the Long Beach, California, area. The women gave a luncheon for Lois and big meetings were planned to hear Bill talk. I am sure some of the more well off members paid for train or plane tickets when they visited at other times, but that part of the story was never mentioned. As for the International Conventions, I spoke on the Archives Panel at the 2000 Convention and I had to pay my own way. I received no perks from the GSO and was told that when I was invited. Also if you read the Wilson-Burwell Letters you will see Jimmy was a little put out at the fact his expenses were not paid to attend the 1965 International Conventions. So I guess I was in good company Hope this helps Charles from California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5182. . . . . . . . . . . . Does AA in the media help people know more about it? From: Aloke Dutt . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2008 11:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I do remember seeing results of a survey conducted on the streets of some US cities asking people if they had heard of AA. If I recollect right, in the states in which AA was featured often on radio & newspapers more people on the streets knew about AA. Can I get some more information on this? In our Intergroup here in North India, some feel it's waste of money & effort to publicize AA in the media. Thanks, Aloke in North India IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5183. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. and Rowland H. From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 8:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 5179, Tom White (tomwhite at cableone.net) wrote: > No, I think that was OG member "Shep" who > visited Bill either in Towns or Brooklyn > with Ebby in 1934. > > Tom W. Yes, Shep was a much more immediate presence in Bill's Oxford Group life than Rowland, and he was not an alcoholic although he probably did stop drinking out of respect for OG clean-living tradition. There was no specific rule against drinking for OG members. It all depended on their individual guidance. In her book "Lois Remembers," Lois says she and Bill and Ebby and Shep were regular attenders of the Calvary Church OG meeting. My impression is that Rowland did not attend that meeting. It was for ordinary OGs and not the top team. Shep probably went to support Ebby, Bill and others. I'm not sure how much of Rowland's time was spent in New York in that period -- apparently not very much, as he had residences in Rhode Island, Vermont and California. Shep, on the other hand, was deeply involved in the OG (more so than Rowland) and in New York full-time. I've read speculation that Rowland visited Bill in Towns hospital the last time Bill was there, but Bill (I'm going primarily on material in Dick B.'s book, "The Conversion of Bill W.") never said so. Also, Rowland had been on a major OG mission to the "West," including Canada, over the previous couple of weeks and there is no evidence he was in New York at the time Bill was in Towns. Rowland did keep in close touch with Ebby from the summer of 1934 through late 1935, and brought him to New Mexico in August 1935. I can't believe Rowland could have missed being in the same place with Bill at some point. One intriguing detail: James Houck, the Oxford Group old-timer who was involved with the AA back-to-basics people, remembered attending OG meetings in Frederick, Maryland, with Bill in 1935-1937. That is quite a long period of time and I'm not sure how many meetings Bill could really have attended there, but I do know that Rowland gave his testimony at a large public OG meeting in Frederick in 1935. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5184. . . . . . . . . . . . Dates in Sgt. Bill Swegan''s life From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 3:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII William E. Swegan (Sgt. Bill S.) Dates in his life June 29, 1918 Bill Swegan born in Niles, Ohio November 11, 1918 the Armistice ends World War I 1923 death of his mother 1926 his father remarried May 20-21, 1927 Charles A. Lindbergh flew from Roosevelt Field (near New York City) to Paris in the Spirit of St. Louis in 33 hrs. 39 min. October 1929 the stock market crash began the period of the great depression March 4, 1933 banks closed and business virtually at a standstill for a more than a week June 1936 Bill Swegan graduated from high school December 24, 1939 Christmas Eve, Bill's first drink, got drunk (working for the local Firestone Service Store). Turned in his resignation three times, but returned to working for Firestone each time, there for the next three years. He transferred to Portsmouth, Virginia, then quit. Came back to Ohio and was hired again as Service Manager. 1938 Bought his first automobile (1929 Model A Ford), Service Manager at the Firestone in Ohio. September 1, 1939 Germany invaded Poland (Great Britain and France declared war on Germany on Sept. 3) December 1939 Bill enlisted in the Army Air Force for the first time. (Did not see his family "for almost four years." This put him back in the states on furlough in the summer of 1943.) Army Air Force recruit training at Langley Field, Virginia, in December 1939. Sleeping in tents in the damp and cold. December 24th it started to snow. Then he volunteered to go to Hawaii (via Fort Slocum on a small island near New Rochelle, New York, a troopship through the Panama Canal, and San Francisco). April 1940 arrived in Hawaii December 7, 1941 the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and Hickam Army Air Base (which was right next to the harbor). Bill runs through the rain of bombs and bullets; his best friends are all killed. June 13, 1942 Bill was promoted to first sergeant, which at that time was a rank in addition to being a position (at 23 years old, the youngest first sergeant ever in Air Force history), 362nd Material Squadron, Hickam Field. June 1943 Bill was shipped back to the states in the summer of '43, to go to Aviation Cadet School in LaGrande, Oregon (with courses at Eastern Oregon College beginning July 6, 1943, but washed out of the program as a result of a drinking escapade. Nov. 26, 1943 transferred to Goldsboro, North Carolina, and shipped to New Guinea. Stationed at Nadzab, New Guinea (where he caught dengue fever and also picked up his malaria). Then the island of Biak, then Mindora in the Philippine Islands. At some point prior to the Japanese surrender, Bill was shipped back to the United States and sent to Camp Atterbury (about 35 miles south of Indianapolis, Indiana) prior to discharge. August 14, 1945 Japan accepted surrender terms. Bill was at Camp Atterbury, on pass to the nearby town of Columbus, Indiana, and was hit on the head and knocked unconscious by an object thrown from a window. (Japan did not actually sign the surrender until September 2.) The death of Bill's stepmother in August 1945 fits in here somewhere. August 19, 1945 discharged from the service. Worked for General Electric, in the lamp division, eventually fired for showing up drunk for work too many times. February 1946 the divorce became final, and Bill's first marriage came to an end. There was a daughter whom he only saw once again, many years later. He had gone to work at a General Motors plant, which went on strike at the time he was put in the hospital for malaria (and for his drinking). Wife granted a divorce when the judge found out. Refused admission to a Veteran's Hospital because of the alcoholism. First contact with A.A. His ex-wife eventually told him she would never remarry him even if he did stop drinking. He reenlisted in the Air Force in Toledo, Ohio. His first duty station was Wright-Patterson Air Force base in Dayton, Ohio. Then he was sent to the Reserve Training Base at Romulus, Michigan. May 2, 1946 married his second wife Ann on May 2, 1946. She already had two children. May 1947 Ann had become pregnant. Bill quit drinking for a few months, his second contact with A.A. Ann gave birth in May 1947 to a little boy (who became the third child in their combined family). Summer of 1947, Bill was transferred to Offut AFB in Omaha, Nebraska. July 5, 1948 got sober in AA while stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base on Long Island, New York. He attended meetings with Yev Gardner, Mrs. Marty Mann's right hand man. Marty pulled strings and got the Air Force to appoint Bill Swegan to work full time with alcoholics at Mitchel AFB. This was the first officially sanctioned AA-related alcoholism treatment program in the U.S. military. 1949 Bill attended the Yale School of Alcohol Studies, where he studied with E. M. Jellinek. Searcy Whaley (who had gotten sober on May 5, 1946, and therefore had two more years of sobriety than Bill) was also a student there, and took young Bill under his wing. 1951-1953 Bill was appointed to teach in the Air Force ROTC program at Kent State University, right outside Akron, Ohio. He spent a year going into St. Thomas Hospital and talking with Sister Ignatia whenever he could get off work, and observing the way her alcoholism treatment program there was run. 1953-1961 at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, officially assigned by the Air Force once more to work with alcoholics full time. He was initially assigned to the chaplain's office as a "Chaplain's Assistant," but the head of psychiatry at the military hospital there, Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West, had him re-assigned to psychiatry as a psychiatric social worker. June 1956 Bill authored (with Dr. West) "An Approach to Alcoholism in the Military Service," in the American Journal of Psychiatry, where he documented the way he had achieved a fifty percent success rate in treating military alcoholics (with others who had gone through his program getting sober later on). Their program emphasized the psychological side of A.A. instead of the spiritual side. 1957-1961 after Dr. West's departure in 1957 (he ended up as head of the Psychiatry Department at UCLA), Bill's position at Lackland began to erode. Bill had to go through three years of continuous struggle, with no support from higher up, before he could in his 21 years of Air Force service and retire. 1961 he retired from the Air Force as a Senior Master Sergeant. He signed a contract to establish a treatment center in Lubbock, Texas, and became the director of the Arnett-Benson Rehabilitation Center as it was called. Early 1962 his father died, and Bill decided to move back to Ohio. Living in Niles, Ohio with his wife Ann and five boys (David, Robert, Bill, Albert, and Alfonso), working for Sanzenbacher Motors for three months. 1963-1965 Director of the Blood Donor Program for the American Red Cross in that county. They lived in the old homestead. 1965-1971 hired by the San Jose, California, Red Cross Chapter to head their Donor Recruitment Program, and worked there for six years. 1965 Navy Commander Richard Jewell and Captain Joseph Zuska, M.D., founded the world famous Navy alcoholism treatment program at Long Beach, California, in 1965. While they were setting it up, Jewell brought Bill Swegan to Long Beach to tell them how his program at Lackland had been set up in the 1950's (a comparison of the two programs will show the many similarities). The U.S. military had a working, officially sanctioned alcoholism treatment program once again, this time in the Navy. 1971-1978 Bill took up a civil service position as Chief of the Alcoholism Program at Fort Ord in California, attempting to start an alcoholism treatment program in the U.S. Army. 1978-1983 Bill took an EAP position at the Naval Air Rework Facility at Alameda Naval Air Station in California for the last five years of his work career. 1983 He had made a pledge to retire at 65, and when that day finally arrived, retired from his job at the Naval Station. Upon retirement, he received the Meritorious Service Award, the Navy's highest award for a civilian at a duty station. 1993 his second wife Ann began to have difficult mental problems. January 10, 2000 Ann died from aspiration pneumonia due to cerebrovascular accident. Seven years of difficult times before that: agitated dementia, schizophrenia, and sick sinus syndrome. March 15-17, 2002 Indiana State A.A. Conference in Columbus, Indiana. Bill began working on his book "On the Military Firing Line" telling the story of his life and describing his alcoholism treatment method. The last six years of Bill's life: He continued living in Sonoma, California, and traveling around speaking to AA conferences and gatherings, including giving the keynote address at the 8th National Archives Workshop in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, in 2003. He married Mary, daughter of Dr. Louis Jolyon West; theirs was a truly loving and devoted relationship. On April 23, 2007, President George W. Bush sent Bill a presidential citation and a letter thanking him for his service to the country. In October 2007, Bill was given an honorary certification from the California Certification Board of Alcohol and Drug Counselors, the only time such a certification has ever been granted. August 17, 2008 death IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5185. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob / Anne, Bill / Lois, trustees, Public Information From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 11:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When Bill and Lois went to Maryland they would stay with Fitz Mayo and his wife. This was during the time our basic text was being written. His house was on land that was given to him by the Burwell family. Bill did not write when he visited there but Lois did take care of Fitz's wife during her illness. Bill and Fitz were close friends. There is very little known about Fitz M.(see my previous posts on Jimmy B. and Fitz M. for more information). He may have been the glue that held AA in NY together when battle lines were being drawn on the Higher Power and God as I understand Him issue.(Please correct me if I am wrong; This is only my opinion) On the early visits to Philadelphia, Bill and others were put up in the homes of AA's and AA's Associate Members like Dr's A. Weise Hammer and Dudley Saul. These non-alcoholics made it possible for A.A. to grow and survive. We owe a great debt to these men and women. The travel during this time was sometimes by car but mainly by train. Arrangements were made by post or by Western Union telegraph. Telephones were somewhat of a luxury at the time. This is why we have such fine records of our early history. Once telephones became commonplace we began to lose a lot of our history. PUBLIC INFORMATION COMMITTEE The first committee after the Gripe Committee in Philadelphia A.A. was P. I. (Public Information Committee) It was felt that we needed to tell our story rather than someone else who was unfamiliar with us. P. I. is essential in Intergroups and in Area structure. The dirty windows at AA's second clubhouse and 1st "fully functional" Clubhouse led to the formation of the "Gripe Committee." Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Going to E Dorset for the Archives weekend at the Wilson House this upcoming weekend with Mitchell K., Barefoot and others. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 5186. . . . . . . . . . . . Memorial service for Sgt. Bill Swegan From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2008 4:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Noon on Saturday, August 23, 2008 Memorial service for "Sgt. Bill" William E. Swegan at Duggan's Mission Chapel 525 W. Napa Street, Sonoma, California 95476 Phone: 707/996/3655 In lieu of buying flowers, his wife Mary has suggested that A.A. members might drop an extra dollar or so in the basket in memory of Bill at the next A.A. meeting they attend. For non-A.A. people, the other vocation to which Bill devoted himself over his long career in helping people was the Red Cross blood donor program, which he