AA History Lovers 2012 Messages 8082-8956 moderated by Nancy Olson September 18, 1929 – March 25, 2005 Glenn F. Chesnut June 28, 1939 – IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8082. . . . . . . . . . . . Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2011 10:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The person who edited the second draft of Bill's Story was probably Joe Worden (b 1895), not Joe Worth. Sixty years later, during a 1999 interview, Dr. Bob's Daughter, Sue Windows Smith, remembered the editor's name as Joe Worth. Consequently, with this information, I had indicated the wrong name for Bill's Story Second Draft. This information has been corrected on the PDF file on this website: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/ I am told there is a signature with the name "Worden" on the first Big Book sold. Bob S. ------------------- P.S. Here's an excerpt from the full "Note" from CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY (Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown) Vol. 3, No. 3 [April-May-June 2007], pp. 3-4, which is all the attribution needed. You might add that the signature in the 1st Big Book Sold shows the name as Worden, not Worth. In Jim B's account of early AA, one Joe W. (Jim actually records the last name, but it will not be used here) is identified as the man who told Bill to call the book (and the fellowship) Alcoholics Anonymous rather than Anonymous Alcoholics. Jim records that this Joe W. was with the New Yorker, but no New Yorker records available confirmed this. Research among various Joseph W's who might have been ours provided a Joseph Hooker W., Jr., b. Bridgeport CT February 2, 1895, son of Emma (b. 1875) and Joseph Hooker W. Sr. (1868-1941), a telegrapher and then metering clerk for the railroad. This identification was confirmed when the first page of signatures in the "First Big Book Bought" in the Archives at GSO showed the name Joseph Hooker W-----, Jr. Further research (Bridgeport Post) indicated he was married in the late summer of 1923, when working for the New York Post, and a son. Joseph Hooker W----- III was born October 13, 1924, at which time the W-----s lived in Cos Cob CT. The marriage notice provides the information that bride and groom would be living on Livingston St. in Brooklyn Heights, that the bride had attended the Pratt Institute and worked for Franklin Simon, and that the groom had attended Bridgeport High School and the Park Avenue Institute, and previously worked for Metropolitan magazine. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8083. . . . . . . . . . . . Chapter on Buchman in God Is My Adventure From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2011 10:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.archive.org/details/godismyadventure032951mbp "a book on modern mystics masters and teachers" by ROM LANDAU Contains an early chapter on Buchmanism: "IV. The Man whose God is a Millionaire DR. FRANK BUCHMAN 141" Not entirely complicit, not entirely critical, more or less empirical. I bought a cheap used copy several years ago - now I see it's downloadable or can be read online for free. Best, Paul - - - - FROM GC THE MODERATOR: I'm glad Paul sent this in, so we could post it. I would still recommend that those who wish to know more about the Oxford Group start by reading these two works: A[rthur] J[ames] Russell, For Sinners Only (Tucson, Arizona: Hats Off Books, 2003; orig. pub. 1932). V[ictor] C[onstant] Kitchen. I Was a Pagan (New York. Harper & Brothers, 1934). And perhaps two or three other of the most famous positive accounts. But Landau's chapter on Buchman, which Paul refers us to here, would be another very valuable account to read, for anyone who wants to get a broader picture of Buchman. There were those who criticized Buchman -- it is important to know why. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8084. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2012 7:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII So the man's name was Joseph Hooker Worden, Jr., and he worked for a while for Metropolitan Magazine in New York City. That makes better sense than trying to link Joe with the New Yorker magazine, let alone trying to make him the founder of the New Yorker magazine. Metropolitan Magazine (New York) -- see wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Magazine_%28New_York%29 The name of the magazine was changed in 1924, and it went out of business in 1925. There were enough similarities between Metropolitan Magazine during its heyday, and the New Yorker magazine, to make it easy to see how confusion could have occurred later on, about which one Joe had worked at. Good! That is a mystery solved! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8085. . . . . . . . . . . . Metropolitan Magazine: Joe Worden AND Fulton Oursler From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2012 5:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Laurence Holbrook Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (Email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) Interesting to note that Fulton Oursler was the supervising editor of Metropolitan Magazine? - - - - From: Glenn Chesnut You're right! Some very interesting interconnections there. Shows how a couple or more of our people in AA history may have first come in contact with (or learned about) one another. As you noted, the Wikipedia article on the Metropolitan Magazine in New York talks about Fulton Oursler's involvement with that publication, which means a point of contact between Oursler and Joe Worden: ============================================= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Magazine_%28New_York%29 "In January 1923, on the urging of Supervising Editor Fulton Oursler, Bernarr Macfadden bought the magazine, launching its new era with an abridged serialization of Theodore Dreiser's banned novel The Genius. The first Macfadden issue was dated February-March 1923. It then reverted back to a monthly. Fulton Oursler's first serious novels, Behold This Dreamer! and Sandalwood were also serialized. When the magazine's fortunes didn't improve, the title was changed to Macfadden Fiction-Lovers Magazine with the October 1924 issue. Its last issue was in August 1925." ============================================= Message #8084 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8084 From Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden So the man's name was Joseph Hooker Worden, Jr., and he worked for a while for Metropolitan Magazine in New York City. That makes better sense than trying to link Joe with the New Yorker magazine, let alone trying to make him the founder of the New Yorker magazine. Metropolitan Magazine (New York) -- see wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Magazine_%28New_York%29 The name of the magazine was changed in 1924, and it went out of business in 1925. There were enough similarities between Metropolitan Magazine during its heyday, and the New Yorker magazine, to make it easy to see how confusion could have occurred later on, about which one Joe had worked at. Good! That is a mystery solved! - - - - Message 8082 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8082 From "Robert Stonebraker" rstonebraker212@comcast.net> (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) The person who edited the second draft of Bill's Story was probably Joe Worden (b 1895), not Joe Worth. P.S. Here's an excerpt from the full "Note" from CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY (Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown) Vol. 3, No. 3 [April-May-June 2007], pp. 3-4, which is all the attribution needed. You might add that the signature in the 1st Big Book Sold shows the name as Worden, not Worth. ============================================= In Jim B's account of early AA, one Joe W. (Jim actually records the last name, but it will not be used here) is identified as the man who told Bill to call the book (and the fellowship) Alcoholics Anonymous rather than Anonymous Alcoholics. Jim records that this Joe W. was with the New Yorker, but no New Yorker records available confirmed this. Research among various Joseph W's who might have been ours provided a Joseph Hooker W., Jr., b. Bridgeport CT February 2, 1895, son of Emma (b. 1875) and Joseph Hooker W. Sr. (1868-1941), a telegrapher and then metering clerk for the railroad. This identification was confirmed when the first page of signatures in the "First Big Book Bought" in the Archives at GSO showed the name Joseph Hooker W-----, Jr. Further research (Bridgeport Post) indicated he was married in the late summer of 1923, when working for the New York Post, and a son, Joseph Hooker W----- III, was born October 13, 1924, at which time the W-----s lived in Cos Cob CT. The marriage notice provides the information that bride and groom would be living on Livingston St. in Brooklyn Heights, that the bride had attended the Pratt Institute and worked for Franklin Simon, and that the groom had attended Bridgeport High School and the Park Avenue Institute, and previously worked for Metropolitan magazine. ============================================= IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8086. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W's rifle: Remington 25-20 or Winchester 25-20? From: ron.fulkerson@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2012 7:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Les Thanks for all your efforts and look forward to reading your book on Rogers Burnham. Could you help with a project that we are working to continue? Bill mentions in his taped conversations that he still had the rifle he used as a youngster, a Remington 25-20 (page 15). The Remington Firearms site states that it was not in production during the 1906 year. However, the Winchester site proclaims widespread production of the 25-20 and its ease of reloading. With this minor manufacturing issue, we contacted Stepping Stones research by phone. We requested the make and model numbers for the rifles at the house and were promised a call back. To date, that has not happened. Can you help? Thanks...ronf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8087. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Metropolitan Magazine: Joe Worden AND Fulton Oursler From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2012 11:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill and Lois's apartment was on Livingston Street so there seems to be the connection to Joe. This was the one where Bill broke through the wall and combined the two units back in the 20's before the crash. Further research (Bridgeport Post) indicated he was married in the late summer of 1923, when working for the New York Post, and a son, Joseph Hooker W----- III, was born October 13, 1924, at which time the W-----s lived in Cos Cob CT. The marriage notice provides the information that bride and groom would be living on Livingston St. in Brooklyn Heights, that the bride had attended the Pratt Institute and worked for Franklin Simon, and that the groom had attended Bridgeport High School and the Park Avenue Institute, and previously worked for Metropolitan magazine. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8088. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2012 5:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You should read Noll's book rather than the polemics and then you might think differently. Hard to say, I've not seen any SIGNIFICANT (reads substantial = substantive & sustained) so-called critique of his scholarship, IOW, GIVES RELEVANT DETAILS. I'd be happy to take a look, w/o prior contempt, same as I did *Synchronicity*. Anybody that believes bias doesn't exist, that much of the time most anybody doesn't swim in it, then well, I dunno. Of course there's bias. That needn't merit accusation. Anybody can "ignore" anything they want. THE JUNG ESTATE WOULDN'T CLOSE THEIR ARCHIVES (because of Noll?) unless something rubbed a few cultists the wrong way. Yes, At the same time he states that he "read Noll's book(s) more carefully". And perhaps for good reason, The Poster --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "awuh1" wrote: > > I must admit to a sensing a certain bias in the posting Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and synchronicity. At the time of the sender's response ... he admits to finishing neither [Stonebraker's] work nor the seminal work by Carl Jung "Synchronicity, An Acasual Connecting Principle". At the same time he states that he "read Noll's book(s) more carefully". > > The poster refers to Noll's book, "The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic Movement", as "scholarly research" and offers up support for this proposition via the Princeton University Press nomination of it for an award (they are, not coincidentally, the publishers of the book, and, it did not get the award). > > The reviews of the book were far from universally positive. In the Journal, "Bulletin of the History of Medicine" Volume 70, Number 3, Fall 1996 they write, "In the guise of a scholarly text on the history of science, Richard Noll has written a polemic in which he makes unfounded speculations about Jung's personal and professional life. Specifically, he accuses Jung of having established a neopagan religious sect, a so-called Jung Cult. As evidence for this accusation, he offers his own questionable interpretations of Jung's writings ... " > > Personally I thought that this review of Noll's book was kind, given some of the propositions put forth in his "research". > > With regard to spiritual vs. religious ... I think the poster is correct, most of those familiar with AA history regard it as both old hat, AND splitting hairs. > > Regards, > > Tom > > ________________________________________ > A response to Message #7334 from "Paul" > (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7334 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8089. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2012 3:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just discovered that p. 40 of the current pamphlet (P-17), "A.A. Tradition - How It Developed - by Bill W" includes the 1955 Grapevine article, "Why Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonymous" also by Bill W. Hope this is helpful Larry Holbrook Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com (410) 802-3099 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8090. . . . . . . . . . . . Mrs. Marty Mann and the medicalization of alcoholism From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2012 10:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Points: The Blog of Alcohol and Drugs History Society, article by by ronroizen9, a major author on alcoholism, one of whose special interests lies in the study of the work of Mrs. Marty Mann and Dr. Jellinek. http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/mrs-marty-mann-and-the-medica liza\ tion-of-alcoholism/ [1] Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8091. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2012 4:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn is right ... you won't believe how often I hear this (the six steps or the six tenets of the Oxford Group) at meetings, sometimes even from those who have a good working knowledge of AA history. The Oxford Group had many "tenets" or beliefs in addition to those discussed in Bill's story or the foreword to the second edition of the big book. The Five C's can be read in their entirety in Walter's book Soul Surgery. A careful review of these principles will probably show the reader that the Oxford Group tenets of surrender, sharing, restitution and guidance formed the heart of the program of recovery as outlined and expanded in the 12 steps of AA. Stepstudy.org has the electronic version of Soul Surgery which is downloadable. The Golden Road Manuscript has excerpts of the work as a section in its 2nd chapter and a copy of that can be found at this link. http://bbsgsonj.webs.com/apps/documents/categories/show/82107 The title of the document is "The Cure of Souls" and is a quick read. I believe someone mentioned a couple of books that could be read to better understand the work. If I could humbly add these books to those suggested: Soul Surgery What is the Oxford Group The Eight Points of the Oxford Group God Bless __________________________________________ From: Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 Subject: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group SEVERAL EARLY SIX-STEP VERSIONS OF THE A.A. STEPS http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html - - - - It is a big mistake to speak of the Oxford Group as having had "Six Steps," or in fact, any officially codified list of "steps" that you were supposed to work through in the later AA fashion. Let's please start giving the early AA people more credit for being creative, innovative, and real masters of the spiritual life. What people should look at instead are THE OXFORD GROUP FIVE C's. This list originally arose in the American and British Protestant foreign missionary movement. They discovered that preaching huge revivals did not work in countries like India, China, Iraq, etc., and that if you were going to convert any souls to Jesus Christ in those regions, it was going to have to be by means of personal one-on-one evangelism. Frank Buchman had already been trained and was experienced in Protestant foreign missionary work when he came to England, and discovered that the Five C's also worked on students at Cambridge and Oxford Universities. Then a number of other prominent people joined his group -- newspaper editors, generals, bishops, wealthy businessmen, and so on -- first in the U.K. and then in the U.S. Insofar as the AA twelve steps are partially derived from Oxford Group beliefs (the word "tenet" means belief), they were certainly heavily influenced in certain important ways by the 5 C's. That's the place to begin if you want to talk about what AA got from the Oxford Group. If you want lists to cite and memorize, quit talking about "the Oxford Group's Six Steps" (these are imaginary and never existed) and talk instead about "the Oxford Group's 5 C's." The 5 C's were totally real, and very important to understanding the basic way the Oxford Group really worked. - - - - THE FIVE C's OF CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY WORK, by which we could bring genuine life-changing to ourselves and to other people: 1. Confidence: You could not do anything to bring someone else to Jesus Christ until the other person had confidence in you. Usually that required me (the missionary) admitting to the person whom I wished to convert, what my own most secret and humiliating sins had been. 2. Confession: If we held back from turning our lives completely over to Jesus Christ, it usually meant that we had some secret sin which we had never admitted to anyone (having affairs if you were married, homosexuality, being filled with resentment against the trustees of the boys' home we had once worked for, or whatever). We had to confess that secret sin to some other human being, and MAKE RESTITUTION if appropriate. Making restitution could mean writing a letter of apology to the people against whom we held our resentment, returning money we had taken from someone else under questionable circumstances, going back and telling the truth if we had lied about someone, or whatever else. 3. Conviction: But I could not undergo a real conversion experience until I felt truly convicted of sin. I had to admit that because I had committed this particular sin, I was worthy only of the flames of eternal hellfire, and I had to fall into a state of total terror, blind fear, complete self-loathing, and absolute despair. I had to beat myself up over and over with thoughts of what a bad person I was, and how terrible that thing was that I had done. 4. Conversion: I then had to turn to Jesus Christ and admit to him -- genuinely meaning it -- that I was a hopeless sinner, thinking about the specific one or two or three major sins I had committed, and then beg Jesus for forgiveness and mercy. 5. Continuance: I then had to continue in this state of repentance over my sins by daily religious exercises (prayer, quiet time, Bible reading) or whatever else was necessary, and Jesus would give me the daily grace to avoid committing those particular sins again. - - - - PLEASE NOTE that the Oxford Group did not teach a detailed inventory of all our character flaws (in the way that AA did in its Fourth Step). They focused only on asking Jesus for forgiveness for one or two or three specific sins that I had committed. Please note that even the Big Book example of a Fourth Step is talking only about three or four very specific sins that the man had fallen into. I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that the AA practice of making multi-paged fourth step inventories did not become common until the flood of Roman Catholics began coming into the program in 1939 and 1940. St. Ignatius Loyola, very early in his spiritual development, made a detailed general moral inventory of himself. He didn't talk about that in his Spiritual Exercises, but every Catholic who had been deeply trained in those (Sister Ignatia, Father Ed Dowling, etc.) would have known that St. Ignatius had to do his general moral inventory first, before he could start practicing a kind of daily prayer that was more like the AA tenth and eleventh steps. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8092. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2012 6:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John Barton jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) has listed three important books that we can go to if we want to find good lists of "the tenets of the Oxford Group." If we look at the chapter headings of these three books, I think we can put together in our own minds a good rough list of some of the major emphases of the Oxford Group's teaching: 1. confession of our sins 2. life-changing (conversion = accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, then using his power to stop sinning and erase my character defects) 3. total surrender to God and Christ 4. restitution (make peace with your brother) 5. quiet time (silent meditation) 6. guidance (discovering God's plan for my life) 7. gaining strength from the power of the Holy Spirit working in meetings of the fellowship. 8. the Four Absolutes as the four primary virtues of the Christian life.** Soul Surgery, by Howard Walter -- gives us our list of the five C's: 1. Confidence 2. Confession 3. Conviction 4. Conversion 5. Conservation [Continuance] C. Irving Benson, The Eight Points of the Oxford Group: An Exposition for Christians and Pagans (Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press, 1937). 1. God Has a Plan for Every Life 2. Confession is Good for the Soul 3. If Thy Brother Hath Aught Against Thee-- 4. The Four Absolutes 5. Be Still and Know 6. Don't Be an Ass! 7. Life Changers All 8. Lo, Here is Fellowship! What is the Oxford Group? by A Layman With a Notebook I. The Oxford Group II. Sin III. Sharing for Confession and Witness IV. Surrender V. Restitution VI. Guidance VII. The Four Absolutes VIII. The World IX. You __________________________________________ **That is, using Absolute Honesty, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Love, and Absolute (Sexual) Purity to replace the traditional list of Christian moral virtues and moral vices, which went back centuries and centuries to the early fourth century desert monks. (In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually preached against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay and lesbian activity, transsexualism and so on.) THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VIRTUES: justice (fairness towards all), temperance (keeping our emotions under control and resisting the temptation to overindulge in the sins of the flesh), fortitude (courage), prudence (thinking sensibly before acting), faith, hope, and love. THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VICES: pride, envy (or jealousy), anger, greed, lust, sloth, gluttony. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8093. . . . . . . . . . . . 50%... then 25%... ?? From: bill@athenararebooks.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2012 12:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yesterday at the GSO Archive, I came across the following letter that Bill Wilson wrote in 1959 commenting on the 50%/25% recovery success rate noted in the Foreword to the second edition of the Big Book - which he had written and published four years earlier. I know there have been several posts on this topic here in the past and I thought some of Wilson's clarification(such as they are) might be helpful in understanding what he really meant by those statistics. I have transcribed the letter in its entirety (deleting only the personal information on the recipient) and offer it here without further comment. Old Bill August 12, 1958 Dear Howard, Thank deeply for your highly interesting letter of July 29th. I was thrilled by your account of the Old Timers meeting with the vast sobriety record that it portended. And also your observations on our 50%-25%-25% claim. I think you have something when you say that perhaps we give false hope to the newcomer by those figures. Actually, those figures have never been intended to apply to all drunks who come within range of A.A. and attend a meeting or so. They apply to those who really come in and take the treatment over a considerable period of time. On that narrow classification, I think the figures will stand up. In Philadelphia, for example, they kept records for a very long time, accurate ones. Not too long ago they case up figures on old timers which seemed to prove our claimed percentages. When the new edition of the A.A. book came out, the same thing happened. The story-tellers had better than the claimed percentage. So I think it ought to be emphasized with each newcomer that his chances are just as the figures say, provided he will jump into A.A. and is willing and capable of working at it. There is another angle, too. As you say, an awful lot of these people get hospitalized, attend a few meetings and then disappear. What becomes of them? Probably you've heard me tell the story about a group of 75 of these people that Lois and I once picked out of old address books from the very early days. Over the years, we located more than 60 of them. The 60 had returned to A.A. and most of them had made the grade. Some had been drunk 3, 5, 7, and 10 years. Finally, they were driven back on the do-or-die basis and really got the pitch. So our over-all claims are not excessive in my judgment. At the office, they continue to get wonderful reports of the change in feeling in your area about the Third Legacy, General Headquarters, and even about me! It is one of the most comforting and gratifying happenings that I can remember in my long A.A. live. Again, Howard, many thanks to you and to all those who have made this possible. Devotedly, Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8094. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2012 9:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What an order! "Can I go through with it?" That statement in How It Works, turned into a question, always brings me to search for the substance of AA's serendipity of principles. Thanks for the great summary post of OG tenets, that collectively may have been very tough for many OGs to follow. However, following the search for the roots of AA, I find synchronicity in our Fellowship's blend of a suggested 'design for living.' (note that serendipity and synchronicity are not song titles.) Not forgetting the OG, other clergy recognize AA as a phenomena, too. The book "Soul of Sponsorship" examines our 12 Steps as an identical exercise found through the Jesuits' self-examination in the spirit of their Saint Ignace. I can't help but feel that our serendipity was a healthy broth stirred by the hand of the Almighty. Rick, Illinois From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 5:18 PM To: AAHistoryLovers group Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group John Barton jax760@yahoo.com > (jax760 at yahoo.com) has listed three important books that we can go to if we want to find good lists of "the tenets of the Oxford Group." If we look at the chapter headings of these three books, I think we can put together in our own minds a good rough list of some of the major emphases of the Oxford Group's teaching: 1. confession of our sins 2. life-changing (conversion = accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, then using his power to stop sinning and erase my character defects) 3. total surrender to God and Christ 4. restitution (make peace with your brother) 5. quiet time (silent meditation) 6. guidance (discovering God's plan for my life) 7. gaining strength from the power of the Holy Spirit working in meetings of the fellowship. 8. the Four Absolutes as the four primary virtues of the Christian life.** Soul Surgery, by Howard Walter -- gives us our list of the five C's: 1. Confidence 2. Confession 3. Conviction 4. Conversion 5. Conservation [Continuance] C. Irving Benson, The Eight Points of the Oxford Group: An Exposition for Christians and Pagans (Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press, 1937). 1. God Has a Plan for Every Life 2. Confession is Good for the Soul 3. If Thy Brother Hath Aught Against Thee-- 4. The Four Absolutes 5. Be Still and Know 6. Don't Be an Ass! 7. Life Changers All 8. Lo, Here is Fellowship! What is the Oxford Group? by A Layman With a Notebook I. The Oxford Group II. Sin III. Sharing for Confession and Witness IV. Surrender V. Restitution VI. Guidance VII. The Four Absolutes VIII. The World IX. You __________________________________________ **That is, using Absolute Honesty, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Love, and Absolute (Sexual) Purity to replace the traditional list of Christian moral virtues and moral vices, which went back centuries and centuries to the early fourth century desert monks. (In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually preached against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay and lesbian activity, transsexualism and so on.) THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VIRTUES: justice (fairness towards all), temperance (keeping our emotions under control and resisting the temptation to overindulge in the sins of the flesh), fortitude (courage), prudence (thinking sensibly before acting), faith, hope, and love. THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VICES: pride, envy (or jealousy), anger, greed, lust, sloth, gluttony. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8095. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chapter on Buchman in God Is My Adventure From: Ben Hammond . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2012 8:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Howdy All and Happy New Year from Tulsa ... Ditto on reading Kitchen's Book "I Was A Pagan" ... His insight on finding a Spiritual Life was helpful to me and explains the Power of Oxford at the time ... Kitchen bio is also interesting. Thanks for all the great posts. God Bless You .... Old Ben - - - - On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Paul spectrumptg@yahoo.com> wrote: > http://www.archive.org/details/godismyadventure032951mbp > > by ROM LANDAU > > Contains an early chapter on Buchmanism: > "IV. The Man whose God is a Millionaire > DR. FRANK BUCHMAN 141" > - - - - Two of the major works on the Oxford Group: Victor Constant Kitchen. I Was a Pagan (1934). Arthur James Russell, For Sinners Only (1932). - - - - Biography of Victor Kitchen: Glenn F. Chesnut, Changed by Grace: V. C. Kitchen, the Oxford Group, and A.A. (2006). http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8096. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 From: Gerry Winkelman C. E. F. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2011 6:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That study I believe is one prepared at the Yale Institute for Alcoholic Studies headed by Doctor Jellinek and others in the last forty's and early fifty's. Searcy Whaley studied in their summer school program, and much of his writing was in reference to that period. (This was the same summer that Bill Swegan was also a student there, see Swegan's book http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html ) Searcy was friends with Bill Wilson. As a matter of fact when Bill wanted to introduce the 12 traditions, he asked for Searcy's help, to which Searcy replied, you might need those rules and regulations in New York, but we don't need them here in Texas. Searcy later came to see the value of the traditions and became a great supporter. - - - - Tom tomvlll@yahoo.com> wrote: >In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite >young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors >made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled >problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find >how different we were from one another; they sought to >find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics >had in common. They finally came up with a >conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time. >These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of >the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally >sensitive, and grandiose." > >Does anybody know anything about this study? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8097. . . . . . . . . . . . Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography From: Gary Neidhardt . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2011 10:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown, there are these two statements: 2) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians, announced in 1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A. As a result, he brought more people into A.A. than did the Saturday Evening Post article a year later." p. 181 4) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and irreversible effect on the numbers and membership composition of A.A. than did its founders, Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186 Are these assertions accurate? Gary Neidhardt Lilburn, Georgia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8098. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What was Dr. Bob's contribution to the Twelve Concepts. From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2011 2:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As the average child says my momma told me, and the average AA adult says my sponsor told me. Bill W can justify himself by saying DR Bob and I decided this,etc. I do not think these statements conflicts with G.C.'s comment. - - - - In a message dated 12/28/2011 2:01:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, grandpopmark@yahoo.com writes: While reading the Twelve Concepts again, we came across an interesting statement. In the essay on Concept 1, first page third paragraph, reads, in part, "Ten years earlier - in 1938 - helped by dedicated friends, Dr. Bob and I had commenced work upon a world service structure." Just what was Dr. Bob's contribution to the work on our world service structure? Did he just read and comment upon Bill's work? Did he write portions of the work now known as our Twelve Concepts? Mark E., Lebanon, Ohio - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR G.C. Let's think carefully about the relevant dates before we start commenting on this: Dr. Bob died on November 16, 1950 Bill W. died on January 24, 1971 April 1962: See http://silkworth.net/aa/12concepts.html Twelve Concepts for World Service (Short Form) ... adopted by the 12th annual General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous on April 26, 1962 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8099. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2012 3:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I do not see how these "assertions" could be verified either way In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst -----Original Message----- From: Gary Neidhardt Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 Subject: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown, there are these two statements: 1) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians, announced in 1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A. As a result, he brought more people into A.A. than did the Saturday Evening Post article a year later." p. 181 2) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and irreversible effect on the numbers and membership composition of A.A. than did its founders, Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186 Are these assertions accurate? Gary Neidhardt Lilburn, Georgia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8100. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Kitchen's Oxford Group book -- I Was a Pagan From: Pamela B. Tiger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2012 5:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In AAHistoryLovers Message No. 8095 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8095 Ben Hammond mlb9292@gmail.com> says >>Ditto on reading Kitchen's Book "I Was A Pagan" ... His insight on finding a Spiritual Life was helpful to me and explains the Power of Oxford at the time ... << - - - - What book is this? Can one still get it? Library, perhaps? Where can I get an online glimpse of this? ~from a modern Pagan~ pamela :) - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: Victor Kitchen's book is VERY pricey if you start looking for copies at rare book dealers, but you can read it online at two different AA websites: http://stepstudy.org/downloads-2/ http://silkworth.net/iwasapagan/i-was-a-pagan.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8101. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What was Dr. Bob's contribution to the Twelve Concepts? From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/29/2011 7:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A post at the following link may help explain what he may have meant. Of course, it is written by the co-founder who wrote the most on the matter -- Bill W. -- and would carry much of his perspective. But it seems from a quick read, that he did discuss matters of world service with Dr. Bob at the time. http://www.aabibliography.com/historyofaa/billw/foundation.htm I take it to mean the world service structure or at the time the Alcoholic Foundation with its board members. The Foundation was established while Dr. Bob was alive. The first General Service Conference was supposed to (among other things) visit the offices and go through the books and check up on the trustees. Roger W. _____________________________________________ Here are some excerpts from that document, to illustrate its relevance, but the whole work should be read by anyone who is interested in the question: http://www.aabibliography.com/historyofaa/billw/foundation.htm BILL W. WRITES AN INTRODUCTION: "To the Trustees of the Alcoholic Fundation Bedford Hills, New York April 8, 1947 Dear Friends; Following our past year of deliberation on questions touching the A.A. Headquarters policy and structure, I have ventured to prepare the enclosed material under the title: The Alcoholic Foundation of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow .... Meanwhile it seems right to Dr. Bob and me that this material be placed before all the Trustees pending the study and report of the Reorganization Committee. Appreciatively yours, William G. Wilson" AND THEN BILL WILSON GIVES A LONG HISTORY OF THE WAY HE AND DR. BOB DEVELOPED PLANS FOR FORMING AN A.A. ORGANIZATION AND SPREADING THE MESSAGE ALL OVER THE U.S. AND CANADA: "... Much discussion in a little meeting called by Dr. Bob and me at Akron in the fall of 1937 developed a plan [for spreading AA beyond Akron, New York City, and Cleveland]. This plan later proved to be approximately one-third right and about two—thirds wrong —— familiar process of trial and error ...." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8102. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2012 12:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII un, 1/1/12, hdmozart email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> wrote: From: hdmozart email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 1, 2012, 3:27 AM I just discovered that p. 40 of the current pamphlet (P-17), "A.A. Tradition - How It Developed - by Bill W" includes the 1955 Grapevine article, "Why Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonymous" also by Bill W. Hope this is helpful Larry Holbrook (410) 802-3099 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8103. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2012 7:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I see neither assertion is footnoted. Perhaps the authors could be asked their references. I will drop Sally an email. Tommy H in Danville At 15:10 1/7/2012, Chuck Parkhurst wrote: >I do not see how these "assertions" could be verified either way > >In Service With Gratitude, > >Chuck Parkhurst > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Gary Neidhardt >Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 >Subject: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography > >In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown, >there are these two statements: > >1) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians, >announced in 1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A. As >a result, he brought more people into A.A. than did the Saturday >Evening Post article a year later." p. 181 > >2) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and >irreversible effect on the numbers and membership composition of >A.A. than did its founders, Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186 > >Are these assertions accurate? > >Gary Neidhardt >Lilburn, Georgia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8104. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2012 7:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree with Chuck-- --- On Sat, 1/7/12, Chuck Parkhurst ineedpage63@cox.net> wrote: I do not see how these "assertions" could be verified either way In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8105. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W's rifle: Remington 25-20 or Winchester 25-20? From: Compton Labauve . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2012 5:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Remington Arms Co. produced their model 25 rifle from 1923 until it was discontinued in 1936. One of the calibers that the model 25 was chambered for was the .25-20 WCF (Winchester Center Fire). The .25-20 WCF cartridge was developed by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company in 1895. The popular Winchester model 1892 was offered in caliber .25-20 WCF from 1895 until it was discontinued in 1938. If you could supply me with the exact serial number of Bill's rifle, I would be able to tell you the exact date of manufacture. CJ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8106. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob's tattoo From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2012 3:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just happened to run across this original painting of Bill & Dr. Bob, and notice that the artist appears to have included something of Bob's tattoo on his one forearm. It's a minor thing, but it makes me wonder, are there any extant photos of Bob that show any of his tattoo, I believe it was a quite extensive one of a dragon was it not? http://www.etsy.com/listing/77926833/original-painting-of-bill-wilson-and-dr  Charlie Cowling Clarkson, New York _____________________________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR: see Message 7512 from Bill Lash barefootbill@optonline.net> (barefootbill at optonline.net) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7512 Dr. Bob had two tattoos. He had a big 32-point compass on one of his arms, along with a large dragon. - Children of the Healer. ********** We invited Bob and his wife to go down to the beach with us, and when Bob appeared in his bathing suit, we saw he was gloriously tattooed on his chest and both arms, with rather intriguing figures and snakes and so forth. My wife asked him what condition he was in when he got that last tattoo on his arm. And he said, "It was a blazer." - Dr. Bob & the Good Oldtimers page 298. ********** A tattoo he wore the rest of his life was probably from those days at Dartmouth: a dragon and a compass tattoo. The dragon wound around his left arm from the shoulder to the wrist. It was blue with red fire. His son thinks "he had to have been drunk to have it put there, and you didn't do something that complicated in a day. When I asked him how he got it, he said, 'Boy, that was a dandy!' And it must have been, too." Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8107. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2012 2:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Apparently Jim B wasn't the only one that believed the Foundation paid off its shareholders and loans (Towns and the Rockefeller guests) - Bill 'claimed' repayment in a May, 1955 article in the Grapevine as well as Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age - Here are the numbers extracted from the Grapevine article - $4,500 Works Publishing stock (repaid from Chipman loan) $2,500 Loan from Charles B. Towns (repaid from Chipman loan) $1,000 Rockefeller donation, also yearly? ($5,000 repaid from book proceeds) $2,000/year for 5 years(?) Rockefeller guests ($10,000 repaid from book proceeds) $8,000 A. Leroy Chipman used to pay off Towns Loan and Works Publishing stock (the book was now ours - repaid from book proceeds) Two years later book proceeds paid off Rockefeller, Rockefeller guests and Chipman loan - Rockefeller & most of Rockefeller guests gave half their repaid loans to the foundation - ======================== May, 1955 Grapevine article by Bill W [Excerpts] ------------- Vol. 11 No. 12 How A.A.'S World Service Grew Part I http://da.aagrapevine.org/article.php?id=93238 http://da.aagrapevine.org/article.php?id=93238&tb=3cT1kYS9icm93c2VzZWFyY2hy [2] ZXN1bHQucGhwJnE9cm9ja2VmZWxsZXIrcGFpZA> &tb=3cT1kYS9icm93c2VzZWFyY2hyZXN1bHQucGhwJnE9cm9ja2VmZWxsZXIrcGFpZA== [Subscription required] ----- This was the sales argument we needed. With a plug like this, the proposed volume would sell by carloads. How could we miss? The New York alcoholics and their friends promptly changed their minds about Works Publishing stock. They began to buy it, mostly on installments. Our biggest subscriber put in $300. In the end we scraped up forty-nine contributors. They came up with about $4500 over the next nine months. We also got a loan of $2500 from Charles B. Towns, proprietor of the hospital where I had often gone. This kept friend Hank, myself and a secretary named Ruth going until the job was finished. ----- Next day, Mr. Rockefeller wrote to all those who had attended and even to those who had not. Again he reiterated his complete confidence and high interest. Once more he insisted that little or no money was needed. Then at the very end of his letter, he casually remarked that he was giving Alcoholics Anonymous $1,000! When the public read the press stories about Mr. Rockefeller's dinner, many rushed to the bookstores to buy the book Alcoholics Anonymous. The Foundation Trustees solicited the dinner guests for contributions. Knowing the size of Mr. Rockefeller's gift, they acted accordingly. About $3,000 came in, a donation which, as things turned out, we solicited and received each year for just four years more. ----- Meanwhile, some of the stockholders in the book company, Works-Publishing, began to get restive. All the book profits, they complained, were going for AA work in the office. When, if ever, were they going to get their money back? We had to find a way, too, of paying Mr. Towns his-$2500. We also saw that the book, Alcoholics Anonymous should now become the property of AA as a whole. At the moment, it was owned one-third by the forty-nine subscribers, one-third by my friend Hank and the remainder by me ----- The help we needed turned up in the person of Mr. A. LeRoy Chipman. Also a friend and associate of Mr. John D. Rockefeller, he had recently been made a Trustee of the Foundation. He persuaded Mr. Rockefeller, two of his sons and some of the dinner guests to loan the Foundation $8000. This promptly paid off Mr. Charles D. Towns, settled some incidental debts and fully reimbursed the forty-nine original subscribers at par. They then turned their shares in to the Foundation. Two years later, the book Alcoholics Anonymous had done so well that we were able to pay off this whole loan. Impressed with this considerable show of financial responsibility, Mr. Rockefeller, his sons and some of the 1940 dinner guests gave halt the money they'd lent us back to the Foundation. ----- [End of excerpt] ======================== Similar information from Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age [Excerpts] --------------- pp:13 Four years later, Dr. Silkworth had helped to convert Mr. Charles B. Towns, the hospital's owner, into a great A.A. enthusiast and had encouraged him to loan $2,500 to start preparation of the book Alco-holics Anonymous, a sum, by the way, which was later increased to 14 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE over $4,000. pp15: Early in the spring of 1938 our new friends helped us to organize the Alcoholic Foundation, and Mr. A. LeRoy Chipman tirelessly served for many years as its treasurer. In 1940 it seemed desirable for the Foundation to take over Works Publishing, Inc., the little com-pany we had formed to handle the book, and two years later Mr. Chipman did most of the work in raising the $8,000 which was needed to pay off the shareholders and Mr. Charles B. Towns in full, thus making the Foundation the sole owner of the A.A. book and putting it in trust for our society for all time. pp150: At this juncture, Dick Richardson described the desperate financial plight of Dr. Bob and myself. On hearing of this, Mr. Rockefeller THE THREE LEGACIES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 151 said, "I will place S5,000 for their use in the treasury of the Riverside Church. You may draw on this as you like. This will give these men some temporary assistance. But this fellowship should soon become self-supporting. If you and the others do not happen to agree, if you really think that the movement needs money, of course you can help them to raise it. But please don't ever ask me for any more." This was very great news for Alcoholics Anonymous, but at the time it seemed like bad news. It was in fact a shattering blow to our hopes. Nevertheless Dr. Bob and I were grateful to get off the hook, even for a little while. The small mortgage on Dr. Bob's place was paid off, and each of us began to receive thirty dollars a week for as long as the money might last. Otherwise, we stood just where we had been all along. pp159: Week after week, Henry raced around among the stock subscribers, prodding them for their installments. In addition to this dribble of money, we were able to secure $2,500 from Mr. Charles B. Towns. Most of these funds had to be devoted to office expenses and groceries for Henry, Ruth, Lois, and myself, and we kept going on this basis until April, 1939, the publication date of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. pp174: The card would exhort them to listen to the Heatter broadcast and buy the book Alcoholics Anonymous, "a sure cure for alcoholism." Here was another wonderful idea; all we needed was money. Among our new prospects a couple of the more prosperous variety had just turned up. Henry went after them, brandishing his pad of Works Publishing stock certificates. They did not want any stock, but they would take promissory notes signed by the defunct publishing company and personally endorsed by Henry and me. Quite unbelievably, Henry extracted $500 from them. pp177: One of our New York A.A.'s, Bert T., had a fashionable tailoring shop on Fifth Avenue which he had inherited from his father. But Bert's drinking had pretty nearly demolished the business and it was still going downhill. I phoned Bert and told him what we needed. When I said that Liberty would surely print a piece in September, he said, "Are you really sure this time? After all, you and Henry were awfully sure about the Reader's Digest piece. But come on down. Maybe I can do something." Bert's clothing clients included many wealthy customers. Scanning the list, he chose one whom we shall call Mr. G. Bert said, "Now here's a man who knows all about us. He is ex-tremely interested in the alcohol problem, though I must admit he is on the bone-dry side of the argument." When I expressed doubt about accepting help from a dry crusader, Bert wryly remarked, "Listen, Bill, this is no time to quibble. We have got to get a thousand dollars from anybody who will give it to us." Bert went to the phone and asked for long distance. At first, he boldly asked Mr. G. for a con-tribution. Mr. G. was uncertain. Then Bert told his customer about Works Publishing, which at the moment had a large inventory of 178 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE books but little cash. The Liberty piece, however, would bring in plenty of orders. Would Mr. G. care to buy some stock? Mr. G. was still more dubious. Then Bert proposed that Mr. G. make Works Pub-lishing a loan. After all, the company had a large inventory of valu-able books. Upon learning the true state of Works Publishing, Mr. G. emphatically declined. Bert tried once more. "Mr. G.," Bert said, "would you take the promissory note of Works Publishing for a thousand dollars if I endorsed it? As you know, I have a fine business right here on Fifth Avenue." "Most certainly," said Mr. G., "I will take such a note if you en-dorse it. Send it right down and I'll be delighted to send you the money." This was a real godsend, which probably saved the book company, for it kept us going until the late fall of 1939. Bert had hocked his own business, virtually bankrupt by then, to save the book Alcoholics Anonymous. This was a friend indeed. pp185: Mr. Rockefeller's letter, which was addressed to all who came to the dinner as well as to those who did not, reiterated his high confidence in Alcoholics Anonymous, the satisfaction he had in knowing that many of his friends had witnessed the start of a movement of such great promise, and his deep conviction that our society ought to be self-supporting. He followed this with a statement to the effect that a little temporary help might be needed; he, therefore, was giving Alcoholics Anony-mous $1,000. In all probability this was a mild hint that the other diners might contribute modestly if they so wished. pp186: The Board of Trustees conceived the idea of soliciting the dinner guests for contributions. Since Mr. Rockefeller had made a token gift of $1,000, it was supposed that the solicitation would not have any large money result. But it certainly might help. Mr. Rockefeller consented, and an appeal was directed to the dinner list. As we expected, no contribution was large, but the donations were fairly numerous. The smallest check was for $10 and the highest was for $300 (from a gen-tleman who had an alcoholic brother). The total of these gifts amounted to about $2,000 and this, plus Mr. Rockefeller's gift of $1,000, put our hitherto empty Foundation in funds for the first time. Money-wise, Dr. Bob and I were still in a rather bad way. We were therefore allotted $3o a week, and enough was on hand to keep THE THREE LEGACIES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 187 this up for a year. Thereafter the dinner guests were solicited an-nually and the proceeds were always divided in the same way. Four years later we were able to write Mr. Rockefeller and his friends of the Union Club dinner that we needed no more funds. By then royalties from the book were giving Dr. Bob and me the help we needed, and the A.A. groups had begun to pick up the load of sup-porting the Headquarters office. At that point the A.A. Tradition of "no outside contributions" went into full force and effect. Mr. Rocke-feller and his friends had given us something more valuable than money. They had put A.A. on the map. pp187: Almost every week we happily added a new pin to our wall map to mark another group in for-mation. The sales of the A.A. book steadily increased, and we could now meet the cost of rent, postage, and supplies, and best of all we could pay Ruth a fair salary. Lois and I were living rent-free at the Old Twenty-Fourth Street Club, and we were able to get along nicely on the proceeds of the Rockefeller dinner and gifts still being made to the "Lois W. Home Replacement Fund" in the Foundation. Every-body began to breathe easier. The affairs of Works Publishing, however, were still in pretty sketchy shape. It had never been incorporated, and the only evidence of its existence were the stock certificates that Henry and I had manu-factured, the books in the warehouse, and the canceled checks that gave a rough idea of how the money had been spent. Four hundred 188 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE shares of stock, to be equally divided between Henry and me, had never been issued and could not be issued, under our original agree-ment, until the cash subscribers had received all their money back. When they heard that the book was making money, some of the cash subscribers, including even Charlie Towns, began to get rest-less. They wanted to know why all of the profits of the book were being spent to finance a Headquarters for A.A. We replied that there was not any other way; would they like to see all those pleas for help thrown in the wastebasket? But a few still insisted on getting their money back, and something had to be done. Therefore Ruth and I set about making Works Publishing's first re-port to its stockholders. We outlined the history of the book project and painted a rosy picture for the future. From the mass of check stubs, old bills, and receipts we made an approximate accounting. As I remember, the publishing company had shown a profit of about $3,000, which had all been spent on A.A. work at the office. Again we turned to our trusted pad of blank stock certificates. On a number of these we wrote: "Works Publishing, Inc., Preferred Stock, par value $100." Equipped with these certificates, I went off to Washington. The new A.A. group there included some well-to-do members: Bill E., Hardin C., and Bill A. They cheerfully bought these strange and irregular stock certificates in the amount of about $3,000. Thus we satisfied a few of the grumbling stockholders and gratefully handed to Mr. Charles Towns all of the money which he had advanced to make the book project possible. He was delighted and so were we. In this period, one of our nonalcoholic friends performed an out-standing service for us. This was accountant West, of West, Flint & Co., a lifelong associate of Dick Richardson. He saw that Works Publishing was properly incorporated and he personally audited its affairs and those of the Foundation from our beginnings in 1938. Ruth had had no time to keep books, and I did not know how. So a thorough CPA audit of the book company proved to be a real job. The tireless Mr. West spent days and days at it, without pay. When this difficult THE THREE LEGACIES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS I89 job of unscrambling our affairs was completed, we felt we could ask no more of Mr. West. From that point on, Wilbur S., a CPA as well as an early A.A., took over the job of keeping our records in shape. He did this for a long time gratis, and even today I doubt if we pay him enough. By 1940 we had begun to see that the A.A. book should belong to our society itself. Its shares should not be forever scattered among forty-nine subscribers, Ruth Hock, Henry, and me. If the Foundation could acquire these outstanding shares, the book could be placed in trust for A.A. as a whole. The proceeds of the book would become tax-free if the cash shareholders were paid off, and they could no longer kick about the book's income being used to run the A.A. office. Trustee A. LeRoy Chipman conceived the idea of borrowing enough money from Mr. Rockefeller, two of his sons, and the dinner guests to clear away certain debts and to buy all Works Publishing's shares (except Henry's and mine) from the cash subscribers at par. Every one of the cash subscribers gladly consented to this; they were happy to get out even. Mr. Chipman thereupon raised a total of $8,000 dollars, to be repaid to Mr. Rockefeller and the others out of book profits at a later date. The subscribers turned in their shares, received their money, and placed our Foundation in possession of a one-third interest in Works Publishing. A few of the subscribers, both alcoholic and nonalcoholic, were extra generous. Some sent all, and some half, of the money they had received back to the Founda-tion as gifts. That left two-thirds interest in Works Publishing still coming to Henry and me. Seeing the necessity of the situation, I agreed to turn my 200 shares over to the Foundation. But poor Henry, still drinking, was not easily convinced. For a long time he resisted all our pleas. One day, completely broke and very shaky, he turned up at the Vesey Street office. He pointed out that most of our office furniture still be-longed to him, particularly the huge desk and the overstuffed chair. This gave us an idea. Supposing, we said, that the Foundation would 190 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE buy his furniture for, say, $200, would he then turn his Works Pub-lishing stock over to the Trustees? Henry finally consented and signed the necessary paper promising to do this. As a matter of fact we had once before allowed Henry money on his furniture in order to help him out. But the Trustees gravely produced still another $200; Henry turned in his stock; I turned in mine; and that is how the society of Alcoholics Anonymous, through its Trustees, came to own the Big Book. ------------------------ [End of excerpts] ======================== I am a history lover, not a historian so my opinion doesn't count much, but it seems like these loans had to be repaid or A.A. wouldn't have 'owned' the Big Book - I sincerely hope this is helpful information - Larry Holbrook Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com (410) 802-3099 _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John French Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:07 AM To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back I would love to verify the claim that John D. Rockefeller, Jr. once said that of all the donations he had given to charity, AA was the only one that paid him back in full. John French IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8109. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2012 11:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If my memory serves me correctly Joe Worden Jr. was the "wet brain" who would mumble "Anonymous Alcoholics" at the NY meetings in late 38, early 39. The legendary story that Bill use to tell was was that from here came the name Alcoholics Anonymous. Of course we know the name was in use by June of 38, perhaps as early as April of 38, as the main source document (letter from Bill to Bob in 38) is undated. Curious to know when he would have done this editing if he indeed had a wet brain late in 38/39. Any more info.... Jared or Bill L.? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8110. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2012 1:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John, et al, Here are a few dates from AA and Al-Anon literature: March/April 1938: The first writing of Bill's Story took place. (Pass it On -- p. 193) The editing was very possibly done shortly thereafter because the writing was to be used in the money raising campaign in the summer of 1938. (Pass It On -- p. 192). June 15, 1938: Lois Wilson remembers the first use of the term Alcoholics Anonymous. (Lois Remembers -- p. 197) July 15, 1938: Bill Wilson used the term Alcoholics Anonymous in a letter. (Pass It On -- (p. 202) Bob S. Bob Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, IN 47374 (765) 935-0130 Our 4D website: www.4dgroups.org From: John Barton [mailto:jax760@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 Subject: Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden If my memory serves me correctly Joe Worden Jr. was the "wet brain" who would mumble "Anonymous Alcoholics" at the NY meetings in late 38, early 39. The legendary story that Bill use to tell was was that from here came the name Alcoholics Anonymous. Of course we know the name was in use by June of 38, perhaps as early as April of 38, as the main source document (letter from Bill to Bob in 38) is undated. Curious to know when he would have done this editing if he indeed had a wet brain late in 38/39. Any more info.... Jared or Bill L.? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8111. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2011 12:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is nice to provide the files, but how can they be obtained without becoming a member of that Yahoo group? On 12/30/2011 12:21 PM, Robert Stonebraker wrote: > > To view the entire first two drafts of Bill's Story, please open the > site below. A recent post included only the first pages of these > interesting pre-manuscript drafts. > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/ > > Open the folder: Bill's Story 2 drafts > > The first draft is many pages, yet not complete, however the second > draft is complete. It was edited by the editor of NY Magazine, Joe Worth. > > This is on my Yahoo website, so it may be necessary to sign in. > > Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8112. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2011 3:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HISTORICAL ERRORS IN JIMMY BURWELL'S TALK: Just because a speaker says it from the podium doesn't make it true. Jim's recollection of early AA history isn't the best source to rely on. If you listen to whole tape it is full of errors. Here are some of the flaws I found and he hadn't even gotten to the Rockefeller dinner: Bill was drinking pineapple juice and gin not orange juice and gin when Ebby visited. Bill didn't have his spiritual experience at the exact same time Dr Silkworth was talking to Lois. Bill stayed at the Mayflower Hotel in Akron not the Portage Hotel. Bill met Dr Bob at the Seiberling gate house not at Dr Bob's home when he brought home a potted plant. Bill and Bob are said to have talked until midnight not till 7 in the morning. Dr Bob's last drink was not on the train trip back from the AMA convention. Bill gave it to him a few days after he got back and sobered up again. No more than 3 sober in 1935. Really? Amos report shows at least 6 got in 1935. Bill left Akron and was back in New York by August 1935, he didn't come back in December 1935. Did Bill really have 75 members come through his house and none stayed sober in 1936-37? Most lists show at least 15 or 16 were sober during those years. Idea for a book or pamphlet was in November 1937 not June of 1938. First two chapters of our book shown to Harper's were Bill's story and There Is A Solution, not Bill and Dr Bob's stories. Harper's offers Bill $1,500 not $3,000 for the book deal. September 1938 set up Works Publishing and selling stock not June 1938. The Common Sense of Drinking published in April 1931 not 1930. Bill began writing Big Book in March, April or May 1938 not July 1938. I think you get the picture. It's not Jim's fault. It's just how he remembered the story. Charles from Wisconsin >________________________________ >From: hdmozart email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> >Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 >Subject: Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back > >Jimmy Burwell (Speaking in Texas 4-17-1950) >http://aa-meetings.com/audio/speakers/ind.php?id=89 > >[53:23] Incidentally we are the only group that the Rockefellers have ever worked with that paid off every cent that we ever borrowed from - we paid that $3,600 back > >Hope this helps, >Larry Holbrook >Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com >(410) 802-3099 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8113. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story From: rsmith77379 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2012 10:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It would be nice if these drafts were more readily available without having to sign up for another Group. Could they be posted somewhere else? --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Stonebraker" wrote: > > To view the entire first two drafts of Bill's Story, please open the site below. A recent post included only the first pages of these interesting pre-manuscript drafts. > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/ > > Open the folder: Bill's Story 2 drafts IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8114. . . . . . . . . . . . Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? From: MichaelD . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2012 8:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, Thank you for this group. I've seen this question asked in various forms over the last ~2 years that I have been a member. I'm asking it again, in this level of detail, because quite honestly I've been struck by the absence of history in this area. We write, we wrote, we make a list, we turn back to the list, We put them on paper, we have written down a lot, we place them before us in black and white. Where in our written history are documents or talks about what is required for successful completion of "The Process" Page 64: In dealing with Resentments we set them on Paper. Page 64: We listed People, Places and Institutions. Page 65: On our Grudge list we set opposite our Injuries. Page: When we saw our faults we listed them, we placed them before us in black and white. Page 66: We turned back to the list for it held the key to the future. Page 68: We reviewed our fears thoroughly, we put them on paper. Page 68: Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper. Page 70: If we have been thorough about our inventory, we have written down a lot. Page 70: We have listed and analyzed our resentments. Page 75: When we decide who should hear our story, we waste no time. We have a written inventory. Page 76: We have a list of people we have harmed... We made it when we took inventory. There are many more examples, but for purposes of my question that's enough. With all this written instruction in our early history, and seeing as we serviced people by postal mail in the early days, are there no letters, no documents, no correspondence that deal specifically with the clear cut directions in our book? There are no letters asking for clarification? There are no letters asking how to answer the questions of: Where were we selfish? Where were we dishonest? Where were we self-seeking? Where were we afraid? Where have aroused jealously? Suspicion? Bitterness? What should we have done instead? Nobody wrote in to the NY office asking for help with these questions and others? Bill, Bob, Clarence and others never corresponded specifically on these questions? I find that startling, because these questions deal specifically with How IT Works. Do we have documents on exactly how we communicated with people about How It Works? Where are they? We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of anyone actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's extremely puzzling. If anyone could point to anything ... anything at all, from our early history that is directly about people following the Clear-Cut directions, I would love to see it. Thank you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8115. . . . . . . . . . . . First two drafts of Bill's Story available via direct email From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2012 11:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII R. S. wrote: It would be nice if these drafts were more readily available without having to sign up for another Group. Could they be posted somewhere else? I would be happy to email the first two drafts of Bill's Story directly those who request. . . . Also an example of Ruth Hock's typewriter font of the first paragraph. Email: rstonebraker212@comcast.net (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) Bob S. PS -- Perhaps some more PC savvy member could put these three PDFs on a universal type website. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8116. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2012 11:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Recent information has concluded that the second draft was written by Joe Worden, and not Joe Worth. Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's daughter, misremembered the last name during an interview in 1999, sixty years later. Bob S. PS ~~ Note message below. ========================================== On 12/30/2011 12:21 PM, Robert Stonebraker wrote: > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/ > > Open the folder: Bill's Story 2 drafts > > The first draft is many pages, yet not complete, however the second > draft is complete. It was edited by the editor of NY Magazine, Joe Worth. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8117. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2012 12:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII and the end of the Searcy quote was "cause we got LOVE" (said to me by the man himself!) -cm On Dec 12, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Gerry Winkelman C. E. F. wrote: > Searcy was friends with Bill Wilson. As a matter of fact when Bill > wanted to introduce the 12 traditions, he asked for Searcy's help, > to which Searcy replied, you might need those rules and regulations > in New York, but we don't need them here in Texas. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8118. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 From: Jim Robbins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2012 1:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a reference to immaturity in Harry Tiebot's paper "The Ego Factors in Surrender in Alcoholism" "In the process of surrender which the alcoholic necessarily undergoes before his alcoholism can be arrested, the part of the personality which must surrender is the inflated Ego. This aspect of personality was identified as immature traits carried over from infancy into adulthood, specifically, a feeling of omnipotence, inability to tolerate frustration, and excessive drive, exhibited in the need to do all things precipitously. The manner in which surrender affects the Ego was discussed and illustrated briefly from clinical experience. The object of therapy is to permanently replace the old Ego and its activity." I have always heard that this was why Bill was so adamant about creation of the GSC. - - - - From: Gerry Winkelman C. E. F. Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 3:12 PM Bills To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 That study I believe is one prepared at the Yale Institute for Alcoholic Studies headed by Doctor Jellinek and others in the last forty's and early fifty's .... - - - - Tom tomvlll@yahoo.com> wrote: >In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite >young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors >made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled >problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find >how different we were from one another; they sought to >find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics >had in common. They finally came up with a >conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time. >These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of >the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally >sensitive, and grandiose." > >Does anybody know anything about this study? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8119. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2012 12:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know of any other psychiatrist who has postulated the existence of an "ego" which is capable of being totally defeated and permanently replaced? To put the question another way, who else has used the concept of Ego in that way? Hobart Mowrer doesn't count,as his professional qualification was in cognitive psychology. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Robbins" wrote: > > There is a reference to immaturity in Harry Tiebot's paper "The Ego Factors in Surrender in Alcoholism" > > "In the process of surrender which the alcoholic necessarily undergoes before his alcoholism can be arrested, the part of the personality which must surrender is the inflated Ego. This aspect of personality was identified as immature traits carried over from infancy into adulthood, specifically, a feeling of omnipotence, inability to tolerate frustration, and excessive drive, exhibited in the need to do all things precipitously. The manner in which surrender affects the Ego was discussed and illustrated briefly from clinical experience. The object of therapy is to permanently replace the old Ego and its activity." > > I have always heard that this was why Bill was so adamant about creation of the GSC. > > - - - - > > From: Gerry Winkelman C. E. F. > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 3:12 PM Bills > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 > > That study I believe is one prepared at the Yale Institute for Alcoholic Studies headed by Doctor Jellinek and others in the last forty's and early fifty's .... > > - - - - > > Tom wrote: > > >In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite > >young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors > >made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled > >problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find > >how different we were from one another; they sought to > >find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics > >had in common. They finally came up with a > >conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time. > >These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of > >the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally > >sensitive, and grandiose." > > > >Does anybody know anything about this study? > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8120. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2012 4:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Bill W's April 8, 1947 letter, I get a slightly different picture - although the amounts seem to 'line-up' with the other reports, the comment here was that several of the Chipman lenders would take only a part payment —— some none at all. http://www.aabibliography.com/historyofaa/billw/foundation.htm Frank A. suggested $30,000 - Mr. John . Rockefeller Jr. [Excerpts] "gave us a sum which turned out to be, however, about one-sixth of the amount Frank had suggested. " "Amazingly enough, we did sell that stock, $4,500 worth, to alcoholics in New York, New Jersey, and to their friends." "As for the shares of the Works Publishing, the 49 cash subscribers were to have one third, my friend Hank one third, and I one third. We also obtained a loan of $2,500 from Charles B.T., proprietor of a nationally known hospital for alcoholics. A friend indeed, he was to wait years to get his money back." "Bert loaned the defunct Works Publishing Co. $1,000. This he obtained by signing a note secured by his own business, then in a shaky condition." "Mr. Rockefeller wrote a fine personal letter to each guest, expressing his feelings about A.A., and concluding with the observation that he was making us a modest gift." "This so—called "Rockefeller dinner list" has since been almost the whole source of "outside" money gifts to The Alcoholic Foundation. These donations averaged around $3,000 annually and they were continued for about five years --1940 to 1945." "Not long since, The Foundation Trustees were able to write the original dinner contributors, with great thanks, that their help would no longer be needed; that the Alcoholic Foundation had become adequately supported by the A.A. Groups and by income from the book "Alcoholics Anonymous"; that the personal needs of Dr. Bob and myself were being met out of book royalties." "We realized we simply must, for the first time, ask the A.A. groups for assistance. The Alcoholic Foundation still had no money save the $3,000 a year "dinner fund" which was helping to keep Dr. Bob and me afloat. Besides, some of the creditors and cash subscribers of Works Publishing (the A.A. book company) were getting anxious again. When, they asked, were they going to get their money back?" "About 1942 it became evident that the Foundation ought to complete its ownership of Works Publishing (the book "Alcoholics Anonymous"). So the Trustees invited the outstanding cash subscribers of Works to deposit their stock with the Foundation. Most of the original cash subscribers still needed their money, and had to wait a long time for it. Several thousand dollars were obviously required. Of course Group funds could not be used for this purpose. So the Trustees, spearheaded this time by our old friend "Chip", turned again to Mr. Rockefeller and his "dinner list." These original donors most gladly made the Foundation the Necessary loan. This enabled the Foundation to acquire full ownership of our A.A. book (Works Publishing, Inc.). Meanwhile, Works Publishing, being now partly relieved of supporting the Central Office, had been able to pay its own creditors in full. Later on, when our of A.A. book income the Trustees offered to pay of f the Foundation debt, several of the lenders would take only a part payment —— some none at all. At last we were in the clear." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8121. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2012 4:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you Bob for copies of those articles - I posted them on my personal website so AA History Lovers can access the files - anyone can view and/or download the files from the following links - http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Ruth%20Hock%20type%20Bill's% 20st\ ory.pdf http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bill's%20Story%20first%20att empt\ %20r%20&%20B.pdf http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bills%20Story%20second%20att empt\ %201.pdf [3] They are not indexed, the only way to access the files is from the links - Perhaps a good home for this information will be found on a more appropriate AA history website - Bob, you might be interested in this link on the The Big Book Study Group of South Orange, New Jersey - http://bbsgsonj.webs.com/apps/documents/?&page=4 [4] Towards the bottom of the page is an entry: "Bill's Story - The Original Version A pre-multilith version of Bill Wilson's Story with photos added to enhance the experience." It appears to be a PDF file containing some of the same information that you have in "Bills Story second attempt 1" I do hope this is helpful Larry Holbrook (410) 802-3099 Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8122. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2012 10:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Quote..."If anyone could point to anything ... anything at all, from our early history that is directly about people following the Clear-Cut directions, I would love to see it. Thank you." Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not just existed, but actually thrived since those directions were set into print. Four Editions of the Big Book have been printed and distributed In the US and Canada alone, with no change in those directions. There is a direct and continual timeline from that point which indicates the phenomenal growth of a sober AA Fellowship, and the widespread, and ongoing, dissemination of those specific written directions of which you speak. Or, perhaps we should, or could, look at how many similar fellowships that now exist and also thrive using those same twelve steps? I'm not sure what exactly you are questioning, or looking for here? I've a hunch that you have some agenda or some particular perceived issue, or something problematic in mind but that you are being a bit too circumspect, in lieu of clarity, in that regard. How about those personal stories like "Freedom from Bondage" that specifically attribute their personal success in sobriety to working the AA Program? The author, (Wynn C.) also mentions her lengthy inventory list in particular in that story. Again, perhaps you have overlooked the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions", which Bill tells us was written, in part, in response to inquiries from sponsors working with others and to those with other problems who thought that the twelve steps might be helpful. Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8123. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2012 3:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am not sure I understand "the" question. Is Michael asking what the book means, what the instructions are or for documentation of HOW these steps were taken, specifically by our pioneers? Michael's second to the last statement copied below:: "We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of anyone actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's extremely puzzling" seems puzzling to me because we have a good written document (an entire book) that DOES state "Here are the steps we took....." Probably not the answer the poster is looking for but we do sometimes tend to over-complicate things. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst -----Original Message----- From: MichaelD Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 Subject: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? Hello, Thank you for this group. I've seen this question asked in various forms over the last ~2 years that I have been a member. I'm asking it again, in this level of detail, because quite honestly I've been struck by the absence of history in this area. We write, we wrote, we make a list, we turn back to the list, We put them on paper, we have written down a lot, we place them before us in black and white. Where in our written history are documents or talks about what is required for successful completion of "The Process" Page 64: In dealing with Resentments we set them on Paper. Page 64: We listed People, Places and Institutions. Page 65: On our Grudge list we set opposite our Injuries. Page: When we saw our faults we listed them, we placed them before us in black and white. Page 66: We turned back to the list for it held the key to the future. Page 68: We reviewed our fears thoroughly, we put them on paper. Page 68: Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper. Page 70: If we have been thorough about our inventory, we have written down a lot. Page 70: We have listed and analyzed our resentments. Page 75: When we decide who should hear our story, we waste no time. We have a written inventory. Page 76: We have a list of people we have harmed... We made it when we took inventory. There are many more examples, but for purposes of my question that's enough. With all this written instruction in our early history, and seeing as we serviced people by postal mail in the early days, are there no letters, no documents, no correspondence that deal specifically with the clear cut directions in our book? There are no letters asking for clarification? There are no letters asking how to answer the questions of: Where were we selfish? Where were we dishonest? Where were we self-seeking? Where were we afraid? Where have aroused jealously? Suspicion? Bitterness? What should we have done instead? Nobody wrote in to the NY office asking for help with these questions and others? Bill, Bob, Clarence and others never corresponded specifically on these questions? I find that startling, because these questions deal specifically with How IT Works. Do we have documents on exactly how we communicated with people about How It Works? Where are they? We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of anyone actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's extremely puzzling. If anyone could point to anything ... anything at all, from our early history that is directly about people following the Clear-Cut directions, I would love to see it. Thank you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8124. . . . . . . . . . . . finding and getting books From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2012 7:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Someone was asking about getting Kitchen's "I was a pagan." The moderator is likely right, it may be pricey to buy, and there are online sites for it. But, putting on my librarian hat for a moment, allow me to suggest some other options: * if you want to buy something and it isn't at amazon, local book dealer etc., try abebooks.com. This is a large site hosting titles from lots of used and rare book dealers. * if you want to know if a library has something, check your local library system catalog, they are all online nowadays. * if your local library system doesn't have something, try worldcat.org. WorldCat is a shared cataloging system libraries use, and it reflects the holdings of libraries across the country. WorldCat.org is the free public version of the database. You can look in there, find records for a book, put in your zip code to see if a local library owns it; see, your local public library system may not have shown it, but maybe a local college does, and college often allow area residents to borrow books for a small annual fee for a card. * if no one in your local area has the book you saw a record for in WorldCat, print the record out, and bring to your local library. They can likely get from some other library outside your immediate area for you through the interlibrary loan system. * good luck, and happy AA history reading :-) Charlie Cowling Clarkson, NY "Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at a distance but to do what lies clearly at hand." Thomas Carlyle IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8125. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2012 6:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn had written: (In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually preached against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay and lesbian activity, transsexualism and so on.) No doubt there was great emphasis in this direction - sometimes to the exclusion of what may have really been the original message c. 30 AD. As far as the OG "teaching" went, "purity" may have also had another (less emphasized) connotation and that was "singleness of purpose" Here is what Robert Collis (A Rugger Blue) told Harold Begbie who wrote the narratives for "More Twice Born Men" (The Life Changers) "Many believe that when they pray for purity they really and truly want to be pure. They deceive themselves. It is a mere passing emotion. The root of the sin is still in their hearts. Two things must go together a deep and passionate hatred of sin, a deep and passionate craving for God. Ask with singleness of mind and it shall be given you; seek with singleness of desire and ye shall find; knock with singleness of purpose and it shall be opened unto you, a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. The reasonableness, the inexorable justice of this teaching, brought instant illumination to the soul of the young Irishman, and he took that plunge away from self which baptises the spirit of a man in the living waters of eternal life. He really wanted the touch that makes personality a whole." -- p.81 One of the books mentioned in the Akron Manual was that of Ernest Ligon - The Psychology of Christian Personality. This is a wonderful book that examines the Sermon on the Mount and seeks to harmonize the Christian principles with psychology. Ligon also related "purity" to "singleness of purpose." "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God ...." "Here then is the last of the four characteristics of an experimental faith, purity of heart, which is to have singleness of purpose and to look for the best in men, with the faith that fundamentally men are good." -- p.60 The essay by Ligon, pp. 52-60, is quite enlightening and may have been the basis for AA's adoption of the idea of "singleness of purpose" God Bless From: Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net> To: AAHistoryLovers group AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 6:17 PM Subject: Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group John Barton jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) has listed three important books that we can go to if we want to find good lists of "the tenets of the Oxford Group." If we look at the chapter headings of these three books, I think we can put together in our own minds a good rough list of some of the major emphases of the Oxford Group's teaching: 1. confession of our sins 2. life-changing (conversion = accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, then using his power to stop sinning and erase my character defects) 3. total surrender to God and Christ 4. restitution (make peace with your brother) 5. quiet time (silent meditation) 6. guidance (discovering God's plan for my life) 7. gaining strength from the power of the Holy Spirit working in meetings of the fellowship. 8. the Four Absolutes as the four primary virtues of the Christian life.** . . . . **That is, using Absolute Honesty, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Love, and Absolute (Sexual) Purity to replace the traditional list of Christian moral virtues and moral vices, which went back centuries and centuries to the early fourth century desert monks. (In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually preached against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay and lesbian activity, transsexualism and so on.) ======================================= THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VIRTUES: justice (fairness towards all), temperance (keeping our emotions under control and resisting the temptation to overindulge in the sins of the flesh), fortitude (courage), prudence (thinking sensibly before acting), faith, hope, and love. ======================================= ======================================= THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VICES (Twelve + Twelve p. 48): pride, envy (or jealousy), anger, greed, lust, sloth, gluttony. ======================================= IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8126. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back From: last_town . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2012 8:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm unable to find such a quote, but regardless of whether or not the actual debt was ever satisfied, it seems to me that Rockefeller might have meant something more symbolic here. Larry --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John French wrote: > > I would love to verify the claim that John D. Rockefeller, Jr. > once said that of all the donations he had given to charity, AA was the > only one that paid him back in full. > > John French > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8127. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2012 1:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Larry, I could download only Bill's second attempt, but the other two addresses didn't work. Bob =========================================== From the moderator: you'll have to highlight and copy the entire address, and then paste it into the address bar of your browser. Then use your delete key to delete the backslash \ in the address, before you tell your computer to go to that address. =========================================== http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Ruth%20Hock%20type%20Bill's% 20st\ ory.pdf http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bill's%20Story%20first%20att empt\ %20r%20&%20B.pdf http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bills%20Story%20second%20att empt\ %201.pdf [3] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8128. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2012 12:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The problem is the apostrophe in the URL. This results in some mail clients not properly picking up the address. The solution is to just copy and paste the entire URL from the email rather than clicking on the 'link' which is not complete due to this method of defining them in the email clients. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8129. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? From: MichaelD . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2012 5:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Robt Woodson wrote: > > Quote..."> Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not just existed, but actually thrived since those directions were set into print. Four Editions of the Big Book have been printed and distributed In the US and Canada alone, with no change in those directions.." I'm looking for a written history of people who DID the actual directions, or any detail oral talk about the directions. Have you followed the clear cut directions? If so , then you made a list of fears that you placed on paper. And according to the clear-cut instructions "we asked ourselves why we had them"... I don't know about you but when my sponsor and his circle of Big Book Thumpers suggested a list of fears, my first thought was "I'm not afraid of much".. As a matter of fact, my reputation was that of a man who was afraid of nothing. Little did I know and come to learn that I was afraid of everything. But that aside, when my sponsor said out loud in a fourth step fear meeting " I was afraid of peoples opinions".. I thought.. Who would admit that in public? I had much to learn, and learn I did. I did a lot of writing. I asked dozens and dozens of questions about "How It Works"... That book, and that chapter might as well have been in Japanese to me. With out support and counsel and direction, I never could have done the clear - cut directions if someone had simply sent me a book in the mail. And I know that there were many like me in the early history of AA. That meant they had questions, lots of questions. Which , naturally, I assume they wrote to the authors about. Because as has been shown, we grew the fellowship by postal mail in the early days. So rather than think I am complicating things or I have an agenda, I am dutifully and honestly trying to locate written evidence of How it Works documents outside of the Big Book. One of the instructions in the writing is to write "what would we have done instead"... and me, being me, would have had no idea what I should have done instead. If I knew that I would have done it already. So that is something I may have written New York about. I might have written many things that confused me? Such as; What are typical fears? Should I show my inventory to a prospect? Should I write an inventory every year? How many resentments are normal? How long does an inventory normally take to write I cannot write well, can I talk to my sponsor about the process rather than write it down on paper? If I am afraid of peoples opinion, and also afraid of being unacceptable, are those the same things? Should I list them twice? Because I know, from my own experience with following the clear-cut directions, and sponsoring many men through the clear-cut directions that the questions and writings are infinite. So I am seeking somewhere in our history where the men of that day, in some way, recorded something, that they wrote something down. Where is it? I had one person who had 50 resentments against 50 different people for the same thing. I was able to show him that the underlying cause and effect was a Principle, and he could write the resentment down Once ( one entry in column one)as a Principle and ask the four questions of the principle: Where was he selfish? Where was he dishonest? Where was he self-seeking? Where was he Frightened? These four questions are prompted after we make the list, we ask ourselves why we were mad, and then wrote what instinct was affected. It tells us to get this all down on paper. Its in Chapter 5, How It Works. Anyway, back to my prospect, who asked me "whats an institution?" because the book says, We write down people, principles and institutions with whom we are angry. And he did not know what a principle was. So i verbally explained it to him. In 1942 I may have explained it in a letter. Again.. these questions had to be being asked in 1944, 45, 46, 47 , 48, 49... all the way to the writing of the 12/12.. they had to be. And I want to find one letter, one document, one anything that deals with the clear-cut directions. If anyone has that I would be very very grateful. If your interested in The Big Book, and a comprehensive breaking down of the clear cut directions. I am the webmaster at www.bigbookstepstudy.com I'm a straight forward, honest guy, I'm not grinding anything but a quest for the information. You can check out this detailed approach that I offer on the site. http://bigbookstepstudy.com/content.php?180-How-It-Works-Resentment-Inventor y IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8130. . . . . . . . . . . . Follow up to the responses to my orginal inquiry. From: Michael Dudley . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2012 7:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Robt Woodson wrote: > Quote..."> Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not just existed, but actually thrived since those directions were set into print. Four Editions of the Big Book have been printed and distributed In the US and Canada alone, with no change in those directions.." I'm looking for a written history of people who DID the actual directions, or any detail oral talk about the clear-cut directions. Have you followed the clear cut directions? If so , then you made a list of fears that you placed them on paper. And according to the clear-cut instructions "we asked ourselves why we had them"... I don't know about you but when my sponsor and his circle of Big Book Thumpers suggested a list of fears, my first thought was "I'm not afraid of much".. As a matter of fact, my reputation was that of a man who was afraid of nothing. Little did I know and come to learn that I was afraid of everything. But that aside, when my sponsor said out loud in a fourth step fear meeting " I was afraid of peoples opinions".. I thought.. Who would admit that in public? I had much to learn, and learn I did. I did a lot of writing. I asked dozens and dozens of questions about "How It Works"... That book, and that chapter might as well have been in Japanese to me. With out support and counsel and direction, I never could have done the clear - cut directions if someone had simply sent me a book in the mail. And I know that there were many like me in the early history of AA. That meant they had questions, lots of questions. Which , naturally, I assume they wrote to the authors about. Because as has been shown, we grew the fellowship by postal mail in the early days. So rather than think I am complicating things or I have an agenda, I am dutifully and honestly trying to locate written evidence of How it Works documents outside of the Big Book. One of the instructions in the writing is to write "what would we have done instead"... and me, being me, would have had no idea what I should have done instead. If I knew that I would have done it already. So that is something I may have written New York about. I might have written many things that confused me? Such as; What are typical fears? Should I show my inventory to a prospect? Should I write an inventory every year? How many resentments are normal? How long does an inventory normally take to write I cannot write well, can I talk to my sponsor about the process rather than write it down on paper? If I am afraid of peoples opinion, and also afraid of being unacceptable, are those the same things? Should I list them twice? Because I know, from my own experience with following the clear-cut directions, and sponsoring many men through the clear-cut directions that the questions and writings are infinite. So I am seeking somewhere in our history where the men of that day, in some way, recorded something, that they wrote something down. Where is it? I had one person who had 50 resentments against 50 different people for the same thing. I was able to show him that the underlying cause and effect was a Principle, and he could write the resentment down Once ( one entry in column one)as a Principle and ask the four questions of the principle: Where was he selfish? Where was he dishonest? Where was he self-seeking? Where was he Frightened? These four questions are prompted after we make the list, we ask ourselves why we were mad, and then wrote what instinct was affected. It tells us to get this all down on paper. Its in Chapter 5, How It Works. Anyway, back to my prospect, who asked me "what's an institution?" because the book says, We write down people, principles and institutions with whom we are angry. And he did not know what a principle was. So i verbally explained it to him. In 1942 I may have explained it in a letter. Again.. these questions had to be being asked in 1944, 45, 46, 47 , 48, 49... all the way to the writing of the 12/12.. they had to be. And I want to find one letter, one document, one anything that deals with the clear-cut directions. If anyone has that I would be very very grateful. If you're interested in The Big Book, and a comprehensive breaking down of the clear cut directions. I am the webmaster at www.bigbookstepstudy.com I'm a straight forward, honest guy, I'm not grinding anything but a quest for the information. You can check out this detailed approach that I offer on the site. http://bigbookstepstudy.com/content.php?180-How-It-Works-Resentment-Inventor y IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8131. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2012 11:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sorry for the confusion, I was trying to make things simple - To err is human, to really foul things up requires a computer - This link is an index and should solve all the problems http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/BillsStoryindex.htm It has links to the 3 documents provided by Bob and a 4th link to version from the Big Book Study Group in South Orange, NJ - The original links will still work, but as y'all have observed they may need to bo copied and pasted in their entirety to your web browser - the index will simplify the process - I was only trying to help - While I have no problem with them on my personal site, they probably ought to be picked up by a more mainline AA history site - IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8132. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2012 12:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Excellent point Larry - if I had only remembered what my college professor's said, read the question before I offer 'the' answer - Burwell and Wilson said that Rockefeller said he was impressed in all those posts - While our literature does make it easy to understand why claim is made, they do not substantiate that Rockefeller ever said it - Let's hope that Jay trips over a check from the foundation to Towns for the loan or a check from the book proceeds to Chipman to add some credence to 'our' claims - IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8133. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2012 6:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Agreed Charles, even a neophyte like myself picked up on a few of those descrepancies - Please don't take the following the wrong way - I am most appreciative of your corrections, the truth is always helpful - Jim didn't get sober until January 8, 1938 with Fitz, Bill & Hank and then a road trip changed his sobriety date to June 15, 1938 - although Jim's source may have been Bill himself, obviously, anything he commented on prior to 1938 had to be third hand information - this is particulary true regarding Akron activities, Jim wasn't even there - Jim said so himself [23:45], "I know the New York section much better than I know the Akron" - And by March 1, 1940 Jim was in Philadelphia - In between those dates, though I think things are a bit more interesting - Jim attended the meetings at Bill's house, he was at the Rockefeller dinner and so on - there's at least a few very intruiging items that he MAY have accurately described - of course, he is subject to the usual human frailities of faulty memory, ego, etc - It's off topic, but I remember in Hank's story, The Unbeliever, that Hank said that Bill had said, "studied alcoholism ... Jung ... Blank Medical Foundation ... asylums ... Hopkins ... many said incurable disease ... impossible ... nearly all known cures had been through religion ... revolted him ... made a study of religion ... more he studied the more it was bunk to him ... not understandable ... self-hypnotism ... and then the thought hit him that people had it all twisted up. They were trying to pour everyone into moulds, put a tag on them, tell them what they had to do and how they had to do it, for the salvation of their own souls. When as a matter of fact people were through worrying about their souls, they wanted action right here and now. A lot of tripe was usually built up around the simplest and most beautiful ideas in the world" - Admittedly hearsay [Hank's recollections of what Bill had said to him] and even worse, Hank was going through severe withdrawal - questionable information at best - even so, I think it paints a valuable picture of Bill's approach to a detoxing drunk - But now consider Jim's claim that Bill got [33:44] "most of our traditions came from 'This Believing World' by Lewis Browne who killed himself about six months ago - 'This Believing World' was a cross section of all religions to date, the rise and fall and why - so we got a great deal out of that to keep from falling like some of the other spiritual groups had fallen, where there's too much personalities, too much property and too much politics" - And Jim said [25:20] "In January, there were three people after three years who had [at least?] six months sobriety in New York - that was Bill, Hank Parkhurst and a fella named Fitz Mayo, who was instrumental in bringing me in - They were the trio that went all around to the different universities, hospitals to find out if there was a cured alcoholic - they went around and the doctors ... nobody could say whether they had been cured or not - lots of them said they had cured ones, but when they investigated they found they'd never find the cure - it wasn't until 1941, 2 years after the book that we knew "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic" - we intimated and said in our book, but we did not know - John Hopkins didn't know, Bellevue didn't know, Mayo didn't know - they had never made the investigation" - [ex-alcoholic wasn't changed to ex-problem-drinker in the Big Book until circa 1948] Perhaps, Jim isn't all that far off track - I for one am going to obtain a copy of 'This Believing World' - IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8134. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2012 9:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I received a reply from Sally Brown about her sources and am forwarding it to the list w/o comment. She makes some very good points. Tommy H in Snowy Danville - - - - At 00:48 1/9/2012, Sally Brown wrote: Hi, Tommy - Good questions! Sorry for the delay in answering. Regarding Rollie, can't remember how we came by the info about his influence on AA membership vis a vis the Sat Eve Post article, but it should be somewhere in the notes we meticulously kept. And all our files were donated 2 years ago to the Kirk Collection at Brown Univ. Incidentally, it's thanks to the sharp eyes of AA archivists that we learned we'd misspelled Hemsley as "Helmsley." Guess Hazelden's indexer & proof reader weren't baseball historians, either! Vis a vis the statement about Marty's relative influence on AA's "numbers and membership," that is our editorial comment, but one based on the profound and far-reaching consequences of her educational efforts. We quote both Bill and Lois Wilson as well as Bill White and others elsewhere in the book who reached similar conclusions. It's impossible, of course, to cite actual figures, but if one considers female AA membership alone, which now accounts for a substantial percentage of AA membership (at least 35% in 2004), then considers the additional numbers of lesbians and gays, plus thousands and thousands of men who heard her and/or were influenced by NCA's outreach to join AA ( amounting to, conservatively, at least 15% of AA's membership) --- Marty, in our opinion, can easily be credited with the influence we attribute to her. And each of those thousands had the potential to attract another person into AA recovery. No question that Bill Wilson's and Bob Smith's one-to-one approach was also extremely successful. But the multiplier effect will always be less. Just do the math. This is a long answer. I hope it provides some help for those interested. I'm always grateful for the careful vetting the AAHistory Lovers provide. Maybe somebody will be inspired to write an up-to-date article on this subject. Shalom, Tom - and Happy New Year to you all! Sally Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous 1470 Sand Hill Rd, 310 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 www.sallyanddavidbrown.com - - - - Original Message from: Tom Hickcox To: Sally Brown Subject: Re: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography This was posted on the A.A.H.L. today. I checked your book and neither of the statements quoted have references. Do you remember where the statements come from? Tommy - - - - Original Message from: Gary Neidhardt Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 Subject: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown, there are these two statements: 1) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians, announced in 1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A. As a result, he brought more people into A.A. than did the Saturday Evening Post article a year later." p. 181 2) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and irreversible effect on the numbers and membership composition of A.A. than did its founders, Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186 Are these assertions accurate? Gary Neidhardt Lilburn, Georgia IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8135. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Follow up to the responses to my orginal inquiry. From: M.J. Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2012 10:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wally Paton, southwest area archivist and historian from Tuscon, AZ, and author of the "Back to Basics" book, claims to have searched through archives from members of A.A. in the late 30s and 40s. After searching through many of these archives, he further claims to have never come across anything resembling a Big Book-based four-column inventory. Instead, he claims to have encountered multiple examples of what he terms the "assets and liabilities checklist". An example of this checklist format can be found online here: http://www.austinrecovery.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Ic-esq23crE%3D&tabid =182 [5] ============================================= A note from Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana): Actually, what Wally found were multiple printings by AA groups all over the U.S. of what is called the "Washington D.C. pamphlet" or the "Detroit pamphlet" or the "Tablemate," etc. It's a pamphlet, written in the early 1940's for newcomers to AA, explaining how to work the twelve steps. Wally recognized how marvelously well this little beginner's pamphlet worked, and incorporated material from it into his extremely popular Back to Basics book. If you want to see the words of the original pamphlet, there is a copy here: (Look especially at the last half of DISCUSSION No. 3 -- INVENTORY & RESTITUTION -- to see your detailed list of "assets and liabilities" -- see http://hindsfoot.org/Detr3.html ) http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr2.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr3.html http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html You should also try to obtain copies (photocopies if that is all you can get) of the early editions of Ed Webster's The Little Red Book (particularly the 1946 and 1949 printings). This was the instruction manual for working the steps (including writing your fourth step) which Dr. Bob sent to AA groups all over the U.S. and Canada. As far as I am concerned, every reasonable sized city should have at least one AA meeting a week, for beginners, which reads and discusses the Washington D.C. pamphlet (Detroit pamphlet, Tablemate, etc.). And it should have at least one AA meeting a week, again for beginners, which reads the 1949 printing of the Little Red Book (this was the last printing where Dr. Bob had input into how things were phrased). The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is a marvelous book. But it is also usually hopelessly confusing to newcomers who have only a few weeks or a few months of sobriety. That is just my thought on the issue, however, and not intended to be anything more. Glenn C. ============================================= On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Michael Dudley michaeledudley@yahoo.com>wrote: > ** > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Robt Woodson wrote: > > > Quote..."> Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not > just existed, but actually thrived since those directions were set into > print. Four Editions of the Big Book have been printed and distributed In > the US and Canada alone, with no change in those directions.." > > I'm looking for a written history of people who DID the actual directions, > or any detail oral talk about the clear-cut directions. Have you followed > the clear cut directions? If so , then you made a > list of fears that you placed them on paper. And according to the > clear-cut instructions "we asked ourselves why we had them"... > > I don't know about you but when my sponsor and his circle of Big Book > Thumpers suggested a list of fears, my first thought was "I'm not > afraid of much".. As a matter of fact, my reputation was that of a man who > was afraid of nothing. Little did I know and come to learn that I was > afraid of everything. But that aside, when my sponsor said out loud in a > fourth step fear meeting " I was afraid of peoples opinions".. I thought.. > Who would admit that in public? I had much to learn, and learn I did. I did > a lot of writing. I asked dozens and dozens of questions about "How It > Works"... That book, and that chapter might as well have been in Japanese > to me. With out support and counsel and direction, I never could have done > the clear - cut directions if someone had simply sent me a book in the > mail. And I know that there were many like me in the early history of AA. > That meant they had questions, lots of questions. Which , naturally, I > assume they wrote to the authors about. Because as has been shown, we grew > the fellowship by postal mail in the early days. > > So rather than think I am complicating things or I have an agenda, I am > dutifully and honestly trying to locate written evidence of How it Works > documents outside of the Big Book. > > One of the instructions in the writing is to write "what would we have > done instead"... and me, being me, would have had no idea what I should > have done instead. If I knew that I would have done it already. So that is > something I may have written New York about. I might have written many > things that confused me? Such as; > > What are typical fears? > > Should I show my inventory to a prospect? > > Should I write an inventory every year? > > How many resentments are normal? > > How long does an inventory normally take to write > > I cannot write well, can I talk to my sponsor about the process rather > than write it down on paper? > > If I am afraid of peoples opinion, and also afraid of being unacceptable, > are those the same things? Should I list them twice? > > Because I know, from my own experience with following the clear-cut > directions, and sponsoring many men through the clear-cut directions that > the questions and writings are infinite. So I am seeking somewhere in our > history where the men of that day, in some way, recorded something, that > they wrote something down. Where is it? > > I had one person who had 50 resentments against 50 different people for > the same thing. I was able to show him that the underlying cause and effect > was a Principle, and he could write the resentment down Once ( one entry in > column one)as a Principle and ask the four questions of the principle: > > Where was he selfish? > > Where was he dishonest? > > Where was he self-seeking? > > Where was he Frightened? > > These four questions are > prompted after we make the list, we ask ourselves why we were mad, and > then wrote what instinct was affected. It tells us to get this all down on > paper. Its in Chapter 5, How It Works. > > Anyway, back to my prospect, who asked me "what's an institution?" because > the book says, We write down people, principles and institutions with whom > we are angry. And he did not know what a principle was. So i verbally > explained it to him. In 1942 I may have explained it in a letter. > > Again.. these questions had to be being asked in 1944, 45, 46, 47 , 48, > 49... all the way to the writing of the 12/12.. they had to be. And I want > to find one letter, one document, one anything that deals with the > clear-cut directions. If anyone has that I would be very very grateful. > > If you're interested in The Big Book, and a comprehensive breaking down of > the clear cut directions. I am the webmaster at www.bigbookstepstudy.comI'm a straight forward, honest guy, I'm not grinding anything but a quest > for the information. > > You can check out this detailed approach that I offer on the site. > > > http://bigbookstepstudy.com/content.php?180-How-It-Works-Resentment-Inventor y IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8136. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? From: Andrew from East of England, . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/13/2012 5:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Parkhurst" wrote: > > I am not sure I understand "the" question. Is Michael asking what the book means, what the instructions are or for documentation of HOW these steps were taken, specifically by our pioneers? Michael's second to the last statement copied below:: > > "We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of anyone actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's > extremely puzzling" > > seems puzzling to me because we have a good written document (an entire book) that DOES state "Here are the steps we took....." Probably not the answer the poster is looking for but we do sometimes tend to over-complicate things. > > In Service With Gratitude, > > Chuck Parkhurst Greetings all in reply, I was helped by Michael's further post. It is important, especially when I communicate by written word, that is not heard, or the writer seen as, as those words are written, that I strive to avoid all assumption of a deeper meaning than are explicit in the words used. I know that I can easily summon up words but that sometimes having not 'understood' at its deepest point what the other is communicating, I respond sometimes almost by rote and do not even 'feel' my own words and can have no idea how someone else, with entirely different life experiences from me will understand my meaning(s) - especially those unspoken 'feelings' that are behind my words and possibly 'feelings' of which not even I am conscious. I am fortunate in having the facility of writing and email, etc., as I write I can sometimes 'access' a deeper awareness and then perhaps eventually understand my own feelings. We are encouraged to engage and share when the founders of the 'Big Book' tell us that they discovered that 'honesty' with ourselves is at the heart of the recovery programme/system/ call it what you will, in the book, Alcoholics Anonymous. So thanks to Michael for his further post. Regards Andrew from Essex, East of England, UK > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8137. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller b... From: tedsstop@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/13/2012 1:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 1/12/2012 9:10:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, email@LaurenceHolbrook.com writes: Excellent point Larry - if I had only remembered what my college professor's said, read the question before I offer 'the' answer - Burwell and Wilson said that Rockefeller said he was impressed in all those posts - While our literature does make it easy to understand why claim is made, they do not substantiate that Rockefeller ever said it - Let's hope that Jay trips over a check from the foundation to Towns for the loan or a check from the book proceeds to Chipman to add some credence to 'our' claims - IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8138. . . . . . . . . . . . Principles embodied in the Steps From: Lois Stevens . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2012 12:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, This is Lois S. a Grateful Member. Is it possible for you to tell me how did they come to put principles behind the steps. or where did the principles embodied in the steps come from and in what year??? Honesty Hope Faith Courage Integrity .... and so on Thank You _________________________________________ The AA Principles and Virtues Honesty 1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable. Hope Step 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. FAITH Step 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. Courage Step 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Integrity Step 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Willingness Step 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. Humility Step 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. Brotherly Love Step 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Justice Step 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Perseverance Step 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. Spirituality Step 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out. Service Step 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs. **I understand that the 12 Steps are the Principles we live by, They sell these as book marks in the area office. So I understand that it's not in our literature but how did it come about? I was told that 2 men from Texas sent them in to the Grapevine. Thank You! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8139. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Principles embodied in the Steps From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2012 2:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 00:59 1/15/2012, Lois Stevens wrote: >Hello, This is Lois S. a Grateful Member. Is it possible for you to >tell me how did they come to put principles behind the steps. or >where did the principles embodied in the steps come from and in what >year??? > >Honesty >Hope >Faith >Courage >Integrity .... and so on > >Thank You ____________________________________________ Wilson wrote an article for the July 1953 Grapevine titled "12 Steps in 30 Minutes." It is available online and would help one understand the question and possible answer(s). Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8140. . . . . . . . . . . . A new book: 'Rogers Burnham: The Original Man Behind Bill W." From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2012 2:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A new book has been published by Les Cole: "Rogers Burnham, The Original Man Behind Bill W." Printed by Xlibris http://www.xlibris.com> For a description of this book go to: http://www.LesCole-AA.com> I personally found this book enlightening concerning many facts about Bill Wilson's early influences; I also enjoyed the previously unpublished pictures, charts and graphs around the East Dorset and Manchester Village area. Bob S. PS -- Les Cole's email is elsietwo@msn.com (elsietwo at msn.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8141. . . . . . . . . . . . The little religion that's not a religion From: Bob K . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/19/2012 4:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a recollection of a Bill Wilson quote describing AA as "the little religion that's not a religion." Can someone tell me where this is from, or is my 62 year old brain playing tricks on me ? Sober and happy in a cold, snowy Whitby, just east of Toronto. bob k. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8142. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Principles embodied in the Steps From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2012 4:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tommy, do you have a link to where that is in the old Grapevines -- thanks, Norm - - - - From: Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net> Subject: Re: Principles embodied in the Steps Date: Tuesday, January 17, 2012, 2:08 PM Wilson wrote an article for the July 1953 Grapevine titled "12 Steps in 30 Minutes." It is available online and would help one understand the question and possible answer(s). Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8143. . . . . . . . . . . . Step 11 nightly prayer alterations from Manuscript to Big Book From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2012 10:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first full paragraph of page 86 of the Big Book begins with: "When we retire at night, we constructively reviewed our day. Were we resentful, selfish, dishonest or afraid." But Bill Wilson's writing in his original "Working Manuscript" is stated thusly: "When we awake tomorrow morning we look back over the day before. Were we resentful, selfish, dishonest, or afraid." [Manuscript page 43] I find this interesting as how Bill didn't originally consider an Eleven Step prayer before retiring at night, but happily the original working manuscript was altered so as we now have available this important nightly procedure. This "Working Manuscript" was edited (handwritten notes) in mid February of 1939 and "When we retire at night," is not suggested at this time. The said change must have taken place later in the "printers copy." Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8144. . . . . . . . . . . . Spirituality and Addiction Conference: Chester, England From: Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2012 5:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A day conference on Addiction and Spirituality will be held at Chester University on March 14th (please register before Feb 24th). Dr Wendy Dossett Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies Department of Theology and Religious Studies University of Chester Parkgate road Chester CH1 4BJ E-mail address: w.dossett@chester.ac.uk> (w.dossett at chester.ac.uk) mobile: +44 (0)7837 958468 http://www.chester.ac.uk/postgraduate/religious_studies ================================================== ADDICTION: A SPIRITUAL ILLNESS WITH A SPIRITUAL SOLUTION? 10am-4pm Wednesday March 14th 2012 University of Chester Binks Building Room CBK013 The University of Chester Centre for Faiths and Public Policy Department of Theology and Religious Studies The conference aims to: * examine the role of spirituality/religion in the understanding of drug/alcohol addiction and its treatment * promote dialogue between religious and secular understandings of the nature of addiction and models of recovery * develop new theories for understanding the inter-connectedness between addiction/recovery, and religion/spirituality * consider the public policy implications of the conference themes SPEAKERS: Professor Chris Cook Professorial Research Fellow in the Department of Theology and Religion, Durham University * Director of the Project for Spirituality, Theology & Health, Durham University * Author of Alcohol, Addiction & Christian Ethics, Cambridge, CUP, 2006. Professor Jim Orford Emeritus Professor of Clinical and Community Psychology, University of Birmingham * International expert in addictions -- with a special interest in gambling * 2010 recipient of the E.M. Jellinek international award for excellence in the field of alcohol and other addictions Dr Ashraf Kahn Consultant Psychiatrist at the Woodbourne Priory Hospital, Birmingham * Honorary Senior Clinical Psychiatrist in the Department of Psychiatry, Division of Neuroscience, Birmingham Medical School * Non-Alcoholic Trustee on the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous Dr Wendy Dossett Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies, University of Chester * Principal Investigator on the Higher Power Project Wynford Ellis Owen Chief Executive Officer of the Welsh Council on Alcohol and Other Drugs * Chief Executive of Living Room Cardiff, a major new day-care recovery centre for South Wales * Author of No Room to Live, Cardiff: Gomer Press, WCAOD, 2010 Dr Lynden Finlay Director of the Treatment Team * Rhoserchan Residential Drug and Alcohol Addiction Treatment Centre Sandra Hobbs Representative of Quaker Action on Alcohol and Drugs (QAAD) * Former counsellor for the ARA Project in Bristol REGISTRATION (by February 24th 2012) * Waged -- £52 * Students/Unwaged -- £15 * Cheques payable to the University of Chester Send to: Carly McEvoy, Dept of Theology and Religious Studies, University of Chester, Parkgate Road, CHESTER CH1 4BJ Email: c.mcevoy@chester.ac.uk * LUNCH INCLUDED -- please inform Carly of dietary requirements * General Enquires to Wendy Dossett: w.dossett@chester.ac.uk ================================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8145. . . . . . . . . . . . A date I should remember: Bill and Lois' wedding date From: Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2012 10:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill and Lois Wilson were married on January 24, 1918. They enjoyed 53 years of marriage until Bill died, also on January 24, 1971. Audio Clip of Lois Wilson: http://www.steppingstones.org (in left hand column, about the middle) Stepping Stones, the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8146. . . . . . . . . . . . From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2012 1:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A recent post revealed as how the reviewers of Bill Wilson's original manuscript changed page 43 from a morning prayer, to as now written in our Big Books: "When we retire at night, . . ." (p. 86). The reason for this alteration has been explained to me, just today! The Big Book writers, for whatever reason, avoided using references to the Oxford Group's teaching (probably referring to the OG morning watch practice). So, further research of the fourth paragraph of manuscript page 43 has revealed references to the OG in two different hand printed styles, obviously written by two different people: 1. On the left side is hand printed in large lettering: Oxford Group 2. On the right side is hand printed in large lettering: Pouring the mold (this is referring to the mold of OG teaching) So, this aversion to OG teaching might well explain the incentive for this paragraph being written into the 'printers copy from : "When we awake tomorrow morning, . . ." to: "When we retire at night, . . ." At any rate, I am happy it turned out that way! Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8147. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Principles embodied in the Steps From: Richard Dillon . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2012 9:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Richard Dillon, tommy Hickcox, and Warren Pangburn - - - - From: Richard Dillon dillonr9@yahoo.com> (dillonr9 at yahoo.com) Thank You all. I believe this works: Where Did The 12 Steps Come From? by Bill W. (July 1953 A.A. Grapevine) http://serenityfound.org/history/where_12_steps.html - - - - From: Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net) It's in the Grapevine's digital archives http://da.aagrapevine.org/?q=dahttp://da.aagrapevine.org/?q=da> Sign into the digital archives and either search for the title or go to the July 1953 issue. The GDA are a great resource. They have every Grapevine on line, including the cartoons. As you can imagine, there is a vast amount of information available. Bill used the GV to communicate with the Fellowship. All that is there and available for the modest subscription fee. Tommy in Danville - - - - From: Warren Pangburn wepangburn@yahoo.com> (wepangburn at yahoo.com) I believe that they are only people's interpretation of what the foreword to the 12 + 12 says, that they are a set of principles spiritual in their nature if practiced as a way of life ... etc. I do not know of any other AA literature which describes each one individually. May peace, love, and harmony be with you today, Warren Pangburn 3341 S. 21st. St. Abilene Texas 79605 "It's In The Book" In God we trust. Home & FAX: 325-232-7727, Cell:325-513-2034 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8148. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2012 9:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Stonebraker" wrote: > > A recent post revealed as how the reviewers of Bill Wilson's original > manuscript changed page 43 from a morning prayer, to as now written in our Big Books: "When we retire at night, . . ." (p. 86). > That is definitely an interesting page! Certainly it makes sense that the AA writers would have favored a switch away from the "Morning Watch" associated with the Oxford Group. Evening prayer including an examination of conscience is a generic tradition, and wouldn't remind people as much of the Groupers. I'm not sure if I can follow you on some of the other points, though. These two pencilled-in comments actually look to me like they were written by the same person, not different as you said: > > 1. On the left side is hand printed in large lettering: Oxford Group > > 2. On the right side is hand printed in large lettering: Pouring the > mold (this is referring to the mold of OG teaching) > Do you or your source have a specific reason for reading these as two different "voices"? It doesn't make sense to me, either, that the "mold" would be "OG teaching." Traditionally the mold motif refers to God's plan for each individual, which will differ from that of anyone else. So the Christian task is to find out as much as we can about the person God wants us to be, then work toward becoming that person. Pouring the mold, I think, has to do with changing one's thinking and behavior in that direction, which is not necessarily the same thing as conformity to a dogma. The anonymous editor (Parkhurst?) may have been translating OG ideas rather than weeding them out. Does anyone know of there is a meaning to that little sun/star/circle dingbat below the words "Pouring the mold"? It looks a little like a compass rose or Bethlehem star. It could just be someone's doodle, but do we normally doodle on other people's manuscripts? Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8149. . . . . . . . . . . . Who was spokesman for the distilling companies -- Tradition Six From: Scatman . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2012 9:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Pages 157-159 in the 12&12, there is reference to an AA member who was offered employment by a ? liquor association ?, who wanted the member to break anonymity, and become a spokesperson for the association in their efforts to educate the public about alcohol. It seems to me I stumbled across this person's identity somewhere before, but I can't recall where it was, any help would be appreciated. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8150. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: jaw24hours . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2012 3:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a copy of High Road to Happiness (late 1940's early 1950's) distributed by the Brighter Side Group of Waterloo, Iowa. (I have as a HTM file & PDF.) Hello, yes I'm very interested in this pamphlet. I have a copy of the Brighter Side news letter from 1946. I would share, if interested. Please e-mail me at jaw24hours@yahoo.com (jaw24hours at yahoo.com) Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8151. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2012 5:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you Cora! The following website[s] include a section of the fourth paragraph of manuscript page 43 from the Original Working Manuscript of Alcoholics anonymous. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/ and scroll down, or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/Manuscript%20p%2043. pdf In further consideration I now also believe that the writer of 'OXFORD GROUP' on the left side of the fourth paragraph, is the same who wrote 'POURING THE MOLD' on the right side. The doodles under both of these writings are further evidence that they are the same person. Also the capital letter 'R' are near-same on either side. I wonder what is meant by the use of the word 'mold', if it is not in reference to the OG? It is used on Manuscript page 30 (Chapter 5, How It Works) stating: 'SHOULD BE STUDIED FROM THE MOLD ANGLE.' Thanks in advance for information as to how these handwritten inserts relate to the text of this manuscript. Bob S. ========================================= From: corafinch Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 Subject: Re: From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? > A recent post revealed as how the reviewers of Bill Wilson's original > manuscript changed page 43 from a morning prayer, to as now written in our Big Books: "When we retire at night, . . ." (p. 86). > That is definitely an interesting page! Certainly it makes sense that the AA writers would have favored a switch away from the "Morning Watch" associated with the Oxford Group. Evening prayer including an examination of conscience is a generic tradition, and wouldn't remind people as much of the Groupers. I'm not sure if I can follow you on some of the other points, though. These two pencilled-in comments actually look to me like they were written by the same person, not different as you said: > > 1. On the left side is hand printed in large lettering: Oxford Group > > 2. On the right side is hand printed in large lettering: Pouring the > mold (this is referring to the mold of OG teaching) > Do you or your source have a specific reason for reading these as two different "voices"? It doesn't make sense to me, either, that the "mold" would be "OG teaching." Traditionally the mold motif refers to God's plan for each individual, which will differ from that of anyone else. So the Christian task is to find out as much as we can about the person God wants us to be, then work toward becoming that person. Pouring the mold, I think, has to do with changing one's thinking and behavior in that direction, which is not necessarily the same thing as conformity to a dogma. The anonymous editor (Parkhurst?) may have been translating OG ideas rather than weeding them out. Does anyone know of there is a meaning to that little sun/star/circle dingbat below the words "Pouring the mold"? It looks a little like a compass rose or Bethlehem star. It could just be someone's doodle, but do we normally doodle on other people's manuscripts? Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8152. . . . . . . . . . . . The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript From: awuh1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2012 5:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree that references to the “mold angle” and “pour people into molds” is somewhat broader than just a reference to the Oxford Group. To me, it seems more a reaction against injunctions and ridged interpretations with regard to religious AS WELL AS big book content. In Henry Parkhurst’s personal story “THE UNBELIEVER” (original working manuscript OWM p. 91) he states “If ministers could only just advise people and not try to tell them what they had to do, he (referring to Bill) figured religion would be more successful with the fellows like us … figured most preachers tried to pour people into some mould of their own.” This seems to be something Henry may have felt even more strongly about than Bill. It would also seem to me that Henry may have even argued against injunctions when it came to the some or all of the 12 steps. Top of p.30 OWM (how it works) is written “Should be studied from the mold angle”. Then again on p.32 left margin “all thru-“Bill is known as a person that doesn’t want to pour into molds.” The last page of the OWM p.156 ties the two together when it states “We have said consistently the trouble with org religion is that they try to dogmatically pour people into moulds. So why should we give specific instructions in the book such as do this and do that? You can obscure many alcoholics.” I am assuming that at least some of these remarks in the margins are from Henry Parkhurst, as that the word “mold” is spelled (as the less common and more British) “mould” in both his story and the last instance of this word in the margins. (Let me plead for anyone out there who has a handwriting analysis of the OWM to share it. I would be most interested to find if all the references to “the mold angle” came from Henry.) I find this “mold angle” debate, as it was taking place at the time, to be one of the most fascinating, as well as one of the most important, in early AA. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8153. . . . . . . . . . . . Collected Ernie Kurtz: last four chapters available online From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2012 5:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first eight articles in Ernest Kurtz, THE COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ (orig. pub. 1999 by Charlie Bishop, Jr., reprinted 2008 by Glenn Chesnut at Hindsfoot) were put online and made available for downloading several weeks ago at: http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html THE LAST FOUR ARTICLES CAN NOW ALSO BE DOWNLOADED: ====================================== 9. Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf 10. Whatever Happened to Twelve-Step Programs? http://hindsfoot.org/tcek10.pdf 11. Why A.A. Works: The Intellectual Significance of Alcoholics Anonymous http://hindsfoot.org/tcek11.pdf 12. Here's to Spuds MacKenzie! http://hindsfoot.org/tcek12.pdf ====================================== These twelve talks represent AA's top historian at his best. All are chock full of information and thoughtful insights. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8154. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: pp. 109-116 from Area 20 historybook, copyright 2003 by NIA, Ltd. From: aa061035 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2012 1:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a copy of the pamphlet "Handbook for Setting Up an Archival Repository (3/96)"? I am trying to verify the source of the quote: "The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the record straight, so that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history of our Fellowship." http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-47_theaaarchives.pdf says it was the Archives Committee in 1971. Ernst Kurtz, in his book Not-God, says it was George M at the 1974 GSC (page 294). Thanks in advance. John G --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricktompkins" wrote: > Frank M's farewell address to the 1996 General Service Conference, with its Conference theme of "Preserving Our Fellowship-Our Challenge," is reprinted with permission of A.A.W.S., Inc. > > G.S.O. Archives: Window on the Past, Guide to the Present, > and Light for the Future IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8155. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2012 9:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Merton M is the BEST source for confirming Hank's handwriting -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of awuh1 Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 3:51 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript I agree that references to the "mold angle" and "pour people into molds" is somewhat broader than just a reference to the Oxford Group. To me, it seems more a reaction against injunctions and ridged interpretations with regard to religious AS WELL AS big book content. In Henry Parkhurst's personal story "THE UNBELIEVER" (original working manuscript OWM p. 91) he states "If ministers could only just advise people and not try to tell them what they had to do, he (referring to Bill) figured religion would be more successful with the fellows like us . figured most preachers tried to pour people into some mould of their own." This seems to be something Henry may have felt even more strongly about than Bill. It would also seem to me that Henry may have even argued against injunctions when it came to the some or all of the 12 steps. Top of p.30 OWM (how it works) is written "Should be studied from the mold angle". Then again on p.32 left margin "all thru-"Bill is known as a person that doesn't want to pour into molds." The last page of the OWM p.156 ties the two together when it states "We have said consistently the trouble with org religion is that they try to dogmatically pour people into moulds. So why should we give specific instructions in the book such as do this and do that? You can obscure many alcoholics." I am assuming that at least some of these remarks in the margins are from Henry Parkhurst, as that the word "mold" is spelled (as the less common and more British) "mould" in both his story and the last instance of this word in the margins. (Let me plead for anyone out there who has a handwriting analysis of the OWM to share it. I would be most interested to find if all the references to "the mold angle" came from Henry.) I find this "mold angle" debate, as it was taking place at the time, to be one of the most fascinating, as well as one of the most important, in early AA. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8156. . . . . . . . . . . . Manuscript - Meaning of Pouring the mould From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2012 10:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As of recent, on AAHL, recent queries have appeared concerning the meaning of word "mould" and the Phrase, "Pouring the mould," etc. The handwritten note on Manuscript Page 156, states: "We have said constantly the trouble with org [anized] religion is that they try to dogmatically pour people into moulds. So why should we give specific instructions in the book such as saying do this and do that." "You can obscure many alcoholics." I believe this explains the mystery, at least for yours truly. Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8157. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA Archives purpose From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2012 7:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The source of quote is the Trustees Archives Committee. In its Policy statement, the quote was always included in its Scope and Purpose for the "Handbook for Setting Up an Alcoholics Anonymous Archival Repository." My fading photocopies of 1/89 and 2/92 have no changes and the same statement is included in the AAWS M-441 "Archives Workbook." Both the Handbooks and the Workbooks (since 2001) are works in progress and are updated every year but the Purpose wording hasn't changed. In A.A. Archivist Frank M.'s farewell talk to the 1998 General Service Conference, he attributed the quote to Bill W. "The main purpose of the Archives, consistent with AA's primary purpose, is to keep the record straight so that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history of our Fellowship." That phrase very well could have been written down by Bill somewhere, sometime. Here's another quip from Bill in 1957 ".It is highly important that the factual material be placed in our files in such a way that there can be no substantial distortion." Perhaps a paraphrase of that writing, also printed in each Handbook and Workbook, led to the 1973 Purpose statement. Seeing that it was voted into place by the Trustees Archives Committee and reported by its Chairman George G. at the 1974 GSC, I'd call it a Committee consensus. Rick, Illinois _____ From: AAHistoryovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aa061035 Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:39 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: pp. 109-116 from Area 20 historybook, copyright 2003 by NIA, Ltd. Does anyone have a copy of the pamphlet "Handbook for Setting Up an Archival Repository (3/96)"? I am trying to verify the source of the quote: "The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the record straight, so that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history of our Fellowship." http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-47_theaaarchives.pdf says it was the Archives Committee in 1971. Ernst Kurtz, in his book Not-God, says it was George M at the 1974 GSC (page 294). Thanks in advance. John G --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com , "ricktompkins" wrote: > Frank M's farewell address to the 1996 General Service Conference, with its Conference theme of "Preserving Our Fellowship-Our Challenge," is reprinted with permission of A.A.W.S., Inc. > G.S.O. Archives: Window on the Past, Guide to the Present, > and Light for the Future IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8158. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom Powers From: Joanna . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2012 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Recently I heard that Tom Powers passed away - does anyone have the details on his death? thanks, Joanna IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8159. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Tom Powers From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2012 9:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII i saw reference to Tom Powers Sr dying in 2005. see this link. http://www.austinrecovery.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=mSr2iZYylT4%3D&tabid =104 [6] Brian - - - - From: intuitiveart@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 Subject: Tom Powers Recently I heard that Tom Powers passed away - does anyone have the details on his death? thanks, Joanna IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8160. . . . . . . . . . . . First AA meeting in London, England 1948 From: dorothy.banks97 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2012 2:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On 31st March the first recorded meeting was held in Room 202 of the Dorchester Hotel, London, at the invitation of Grace O, a visiting American member who had previously met Canadian Bob in a London Dean St restaurant. The Dorchester meeting comprised, Grace, Bob B, Chris L B, Vernon W (an American serviceman), Norman Rees-Watkins (S Croydon), Pat F (London), Ward Williams (American). Canadian Bob was made Group Secretary. Canadian Bob recalls the meeting,"It was Grace O. who really triggered off the inception of AA in England. She had written to me before she and her husband embarked at New York on one of the Queens. Can anyone there at history lovers update on the happy fate of the usa members who attended please? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8161. . . . . . . . . . . . Henry Parkhurst From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2012 7:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard much about Merton M, but have also heard that people are having trouble contacting him. I was hoping he could be a source for my attempts to find the final resting place, if there is one, of Hank Parkhurst. Can anyone provide me with contact info for Merton, or pass on mine to him? Brian Koch 215-390-7508 kochbrian@hotmail.com (kochbrian at hotmail.com) - - - - From: ineedpage63@cox.net Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 Subject: RE: The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript Merton M is the BEST source for confirming Hank's handwriting IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8162. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Archives purpose From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2012 4:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The following is from the Final Conference Report for1974 page 24. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin Archival Library Organized ; Early A.A. Records Preserved TRUSTEES' COMMITTEE: The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the record straight, so that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history of our Fellowship. The library can give A.A. a sense of its own past and the opportunity to study it. There is also interest in A.A. among sociologists, historians, and other professionals who want to find out what A.A. is and how it started. The archives should be accessible to historians, as well as to A.A.'s, but each request should be individually judged. Bill's files from Stepping Stones have been integrated with his files at G.S.O. Early, irreplaceable A.A. material has been placed in a safe-deposit box, with copies made for the library. Directories, Conference Reports, and bulletins have been bound. Letters were sent to 190 old-time A.A.'s asking their help; 105 affirmative replies and much material have been sent in. Files of the first 100 groups in the U.S. and Canada have been collected. Papers are being prepared for microfilming, and steps are being taken to put sound material on permanent tape. -George G.. chairman BIO: GEORGE N. GORDON, Ph.D. (110-15 11 Rd., Forest Hilis, N.Y. 11375), was elected a director of the A.A. Grapevine in 1969 and has served as its treasurer since 1970. Since his last drink, in 1964. he has served his local group in most offices and the New York Intergroup Association on several committees. He is director of the Communications Center at Hofstra University in Hempstead, N.Y. and author or co-author of 13 nonfiction books, 11 of them written after joining A.A. George is a member of the Finance Committee in the capacity of Grapevine treasurer, a member of the Literature, Policy, Long-Range Planning. and Employee Retirement Committees, and chairman of the Archives Committee. >________________________________ >From: ricktompkins ricktompkins@comcast.net> >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:07 PM >Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: AA Archives purpose > > >The source of quote is the Trustees Archives Committee. > >In its Policy statement, the quote was always included in its Scope and >Purpose for the "Handbook for Setting Up an Alcoholics Anonymous Archival >Repository." My fading photocopies of 1/89 and 2/92 have no changes and the >same statement is included in the AAWS M-441 "Archives Workbook." Both the >Handbooks and the Workbooks (since 2001) are works in progress and are >updated every year but the Purpose wording hasn't changed. > >In A.A. Archivist Frank M.'s farewell talk to the 1998 General Service >Conference, he attributed the quote to Bill W. "The main purpose of the >Archives, consistent with AA's primary purpose, is to keep the record >straight so that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history >of our Fellowship." That phrase very well could have been written down by >Bill somewhere, sometime. Here's another quip from Bill in 1957 > >".It is highly important that the factual material be placed in our files in >such a way that there can be no substantial distortion." Perhaps a >paraphrase of that writing, also printed in each Handbook and Workbook, led >to the 1973 Purpose statement. > >Seeing that it was voted into place by the Trustees Archives Committee and >reported by its Chairman George G. at the 1974 GSC, I'd call it a Committee >consensus. > >Rick, Illinois > >_____ > >From: AAHistoryovers@yahoogroups.com >[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aa061035 >Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:39 PM >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: pp. 109-116 from Area 20 historybook, >copyright 2003 by NIA, Ltd. > >Does anyone have a copy of the pamphlet "Handbook for Setting Up an Archival >Repository (3/96)"? >I am trying to verify the source of the quote: >"The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the record straight, so >that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history of our >Fellowship." >http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-47_theaaarchives.pdf >says it was the Archives Committee in 1971. >Ernst Kurtz, in his book Not-God, says it was George M at the 1974 GSC (page >294). >Thanks in advance. >John G IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8163. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Today From: donaldl.mansell . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2012 5:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In "As Bill Sees It" the description says that the quotes come from Grapevine and individual letters and "AA Today". I've searched but came up empty when looking for "AA Today". Any suggestions? Thank you. - - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR G.C. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5579 AA Today: a special publication by the AA Grapevine commemorating the 25th Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous (copyright 1960, 1988) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8164. . . . . . . . . . . . Paying the hotel bill at the Mayflower Hotel From: bernadette macleod . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2012 11:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How did Bill pay for the hotel bill in Akron when he was short of money? How much would a hotel bill cost approximately back then? Thanks, bernadette m. King City Group King City, Ontario - - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR G.C. -- from our past messages http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5529 From: "Robert Stonebraker" rstonebraker212@comcast.net> (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) How Bill Wilson's hotel bill was paid? A possible answer could lie in the fact that Bill received living expenses from the firm of Baer and Company who sent Bill to Akron to attempt a take-over of the Akron National Rubber Company. Pass It On, p. 135, third full paragraph: "He had little money, but they promised to support his efforts." Apparently they did, throughout that entire summer; page 42 of Not God, first full paragraph, states: "Early in September, Bill Wilson's proxy battle met another apparent defeat. His sponsors soured on projects continuing costs, and Bill departed for New York." Of course, one wonders whether Henrietta Seiberling might have paid it for him before he moved to the Portage Lodge that month. Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8165. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers From: Keith . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2012 5:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII are you refering to Tom senior or Tom junior. You can find Tom Powers,Jr at alladdictsanonymous.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8166. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery From: pamelafro88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2012 2:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is an old thread, but has this been authenticated/discounted yet? The link to which the thread refers is no longer available Pam F - - - - From: Azor521@aol.com (Azor521 at aol.com) Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:01pm Subject: Re: Trust God, Clean House, Help Others Dr. Bob wrote this prescription -- 1. Trust God. 2. Clean House. 3. Help Others: http://www.nicd.us/AAand12-stepresources.html - - - - Message #3113 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3113 > The phrase "1. Trust God, 2. Clean House, 3. Help Others" is typed on a prescription pad with Dr. Bob's name at the top. His signature is at the bottom, and the phrase "always remember it" is in handwriting at the top. > > The problem is that a good AA historian once showed me that both the handwritten phrase at the top, and the signature at the bottom, seem to have been scanned and copied from a genuine letter by Dr. Bob, and then superimposed on the picture of the prescription pad using a computer art program. It seemed pretty convincing to me. > > But I cannot remember where the genuine letter is found. Does anybody in the group know anything more about this issue over the authenticity of the prescription? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8167. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers From: John Williams . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2012 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII OK wow, what a response. I was actually looking for the 20 page PDF of the Brighter Side Group of Waterloo, IAs 12 step pamphlet, and/or copies of their newsletter. I have a copy of a newsletter I picked up at the Oelwein, IA Alano club. If anyone has more of these newsletters or the full 20 page pamphlet of the 12 steps that they published in 1940s, I would sure like a copy. The group was using the four absolutes in their 4th step guide and is good example of how the groups functioned in Iowa during the 40s and 50s. The Brighter Side Group became the West side group which is still in operation today. ________________________________ From: jaw24hours jaw24hours@yahoo.com> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 2:29 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers I have a copy of High Road to Happiness (late 1940's early 1950's) distributed by the Brighter Side Group of Waterloo, Iowa. (I have as a HTM file & PDF.) Hello, yes I'm very interested in this pamphlet. I have a copy of the Brighter Side news letter from 1946. I would share, if interested. Please e-mail me at jaw24hours@yahoo.com (jaw24hours at yahoo.com) Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8168. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2012 2:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=72971769 [7] Henry G "Hank" Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8169. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Today From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2012 3:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII With patience, you can obtain a copy off of eBay. They are offered every so often. Tommy H in Danville At 17:29 1/31/2012, donaldl.mansell wrote: >In "As Bill Sees It" the description says that the quotes come from >Grapevine and individual letters and "AA Today". I've searched but >came up empty when looking for "AA Today". Any suggestions? >Thank you. - - - - > >NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR G.C. > >http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5579 > >AA Today: a special publication by the AA Grapevine commemorating >the 25th Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous (copyright 1960, 1988) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8171. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Today From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2012 4:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII PBA Galleries, Auctioneers and Appraisers 133 Kearny Street, San Francisco, CA 94108 http://www.pbagalleries.com/search/item118528.php?&PHPSESSID=eeb941 [8] Heading: (Alcoholics Anonymous) Author: [Wilson, William (Bill W.)] Title: AA Today: A special publication by the AA Grapevine commemorating the 25th Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous Place: New York Publisher: AA Grapevine / Cornwall Press Date: 1960 Sale Date 08/15/2002 Price realized $ 920 Description: 111 pp. Illustrated with drawings, comics and photographs throughout. (4to) 11x8½, light blue cloth, lettered in black and white. First Edition, First Printing. Inscribed by the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous William "Bill W." Wilson in the year of publication on front free endpaper: "Dear Sharin Richards - With thus all the thanks...for your wonderful help! Devotedly, Bill Wilson, NY, 8/30/60." Includes two written contributions by Bill Wilson, also an essay "Man and Reality" by Aldous Huxley. No dust jacket, as issued. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8172. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Today From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2012 11:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A.A. TODAY -- The AA Grapevine published this hard bound book especially for the 1960 International Convention and AA's 25th anniversary. This was the very first book published by the Grapevine. In the 1st printing, 30,000 were printed and 12,000 were sold by advanced sales. The hard bound book went through 3 printings and the last one sold out in 1964. The 1979 General Service Conference approved reprinting this book and in 1980 was back in print in paper back form. I am not sure when they stopped printing this booklet, but I believe it was in the late 1990's. (The Grapevine could not determine when they stopped selling this book) If you can get your hands on a June 1960 AA Grapevine magazine, you will find it has all of the same articles as the book. You can read these articles in the on-line AA Grapevine Digital Archives. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8173. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA meeting in London, England 1948 From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2012 3:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Re posting 8160: Grace O. was the wife of Fulton Oursler, author and editor, who was an Oxford grouper and served as member of the Alcoholic Foundation and the Grapevine editorial board. - - - - Message #8160 From: "dorothy.banks97" ullathorne@toucansurf.com> (ullathorne at toucansurf.com) First AA meeting in London, England 1948 On 31st March the first recorded meeting was held in Room 202 of the Dorchester Hotel, London, at the invitation of Grace O, a visiting American member who had previously met Canadian Bob in a London Dean St restaurant. The Dorchester meeting comprised, Grace, Bob B, Chris L B, Vernon W (an American serviceman), Norman Rees-Watkins (S Croydon), Pat F (London), Ward Williams (American). Canadian Bob was made Group Secretary. Canadian Bob recalls the meeting,"It was Grace O. who really triggered off the inception of AA in England. She had written to me before she and her husband embarked at New York on one of the Queens. Can anyone there at history lovers update on the happy fate of the usa members who attended please? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8174. . . . . . . . . . . . What kind of meetings in 1839 would promote abstinence? From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2012 5:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The cover of "Alcohol, Addiction and Christian Ethics"; Christopher C. H. Cook; Cambridge University Press; 2006. shows a picture from the Temperance Examiner (November 1, 1839) in which a man is being held by each arm by a drunk, who wants him to go to the pub, and Tee-totaller, pulling him in the opposite direction. The picture is reproduced inside the book with the caption: "Which way shall I turn me?" or Ruin and Salvation. Old Fuddler: Come along, Charley, my boy; come along! Only one glass. A short life but a merry one, that's my ticket. Charles: Well, you're a good natured fellow, tho' you've ruined yourself by drinking. I was thinking about abstaining; but surely one glass won't hurt me! Tee-totaller: Don't listen to him, my dear Charles. You see what drinking has done for him. If you take one glass you won't know when to stop. You promised to go to our meeting. Come and learn the blessings of Total Abstinence. Over 170 years ago Tee-totaller knew that it was the first drink that did the damage - so, don't drink and go to meetings! BTW what meetings would they be? _____________________________________ TO SEE A PICTURE OF THE COVER (AND SOME SHORT REVIEWS OF THE BOOK) SEE: http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/192/4/316.2.full http://www.dur.ac.uk/spirituality.health/?page_id=53 http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/alcohol-addiction-and-christian-ethics-chris toph\ er-c-h-cook/1100955223?ean=9780521091343&itm=1&usri=christopher+cook%2c& #43;alcohol%\ 2c+addiction+and+christian+ethics [9] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8175. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom Powers From: Matt Dingle . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2012 7:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The address is http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org and Tom P. Sr.'s obit as follows: Thomas E. Powers Founder East Ridge, 93 Thomas E. Powers of Hankins, the founder with his son, Tom Powers Jr., of East Ridge in Hankins, died Wednesday, April 27, 2005, at his home. He was 93 years of age. The son of the late Thomas Francis and Katherine Votruba Powers, he was born June 7, 1911, in Chadron, Neb. East Ridge is a recovery center for people with all kinds of addictions. During his business career he worked as a commercial artist, radio and television program director, advertising and marketing executive, author, editor and publisher. Since 1964 he was chairman and general supervisor of all the businesses and projects of East Ridge. Mr. Powers is survived by his wife, Meredith Powers, at home; a son, Thomas R. Powers; four daughters, Katherine Curtis, Clare Renzulli, Joan Stein and Rachel Dingle; 16 grandchildren; and eight great-grandchildren. Private funeral services will be held Friday at the East Ridge Chapel. Graveside services and burial will be made in the Callicoon Cemetery. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8176. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA meeting in London, England 1948 From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2012 3:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The walls of the 4021 Clubhouse (cs. 1946) have many framed re-prints of pages from Jim Burwell's scrapbook. On one of these pages is a printed Christmas card where Jim had written: "Our Lone England Member" It is signed : Dorothy Hopkinson-Evans 68 Conaugh Rd. London, W14 and says Christmas 1945 at the top. -- Cindy Miller Philadelphia, PA USA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8177. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2012 1:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I spotted this several years ago and never knew that anyone had previously discussed it. I never brought it up because I thought it to be of little consequence. However, I agree the document is a forgery as both hand written phrases "always remember it" and Dr Bob's signature are perfectly super imposed from two different letters written by Dr. Bob to Barry Collins in 1944 and 1946.I do have copies of the letters as well as the prescription pad "forgery." Of course this type of thing should never be condoned as it distorts AA history. Thanks for bringing this up and the opportunity to respond. God Bless John Barton ______________________________________________ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "pamelafro88" wrote: > > This is an old thread, but has this been authenticated/discounted yet? The link to which the thread refers is no longer available > Pam F > > - - - - > > From: Azor521@... (Azor521 at aol.com) > Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:01pm > Subject: Re: Trust God, Clean House, Help Others > > Dr. Bob wrote this prescription -- > 1. Trust God. 2. Clean House. 3. Help Others: > > http://www.nicd.us/AAand12-stepresources.html > > - - - - > > Message #3113 > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3113 > > > The phrase "1. Trust God, 2. Clean House, 3. Help Others" is typed on a prescription pad with Dr. Bob's name at the top. His signature is at the bottom, and the phrase "always remember it" is in handwriting at the top. > > > > The problem is that a good AA historian once showed me that both the handwritten phrase at the top, and the signature at the bottom, seem to have been scanned and copied from a genuine letter by Dr. Bob, and then superimposed on the picture of the prescription pad using a computer art program. It seemed pretty convincing to me. > > > > But I cannot remember where the genuine letter is found. Does anybody in the group know anything more about this issue over the authenticity of the prescription? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8178. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Today From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2012 4:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1st ptg hardcover 1960 2d ptg hardcover 1960 3d ptg hardcover 1960 4th ptg sc 1979 5th ptg sc 1981 6th ptg sc 1988 7th ptg sc 1990 8th ptg sc 1994 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8179. . . . . . . . . . . . No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2012 10:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Friends, Having read some of the Hartigan book on Bill W for a second time, I am searching to verify some of his information. Specifically, in the section/chapter titled "The Other Woman" he talks about Helen Wynn. In part of this chapter he mentions that Bill secured her a job at the AA grapevine, and she rose to the position of Editor of AA Grapevine. I find this hard to believe on the surface as she had no qualifications in the print media industry. He further states that she left the grapevine in 1962. I emailed the Grapevine and asked for a list of all editors of the magazine since its inception, and received a list from the office manager. No Helen Wynn. However, after looking more closely at the list, there was a time gap, the year 1961. This would possibly coincide with Helen's being in the position, if it were true. I re-queried, and was told that possibly the managing editor was doing the job at the time. I re-re-queried and asked for that persons name so as to be able to complete the timeline...The last email was "Unfortunately, I cannot find any information on that gap...sorry." Now it seems very unusual that no information would exist from the 60's regarding who was running our meeting in print. I sense some attempt to erase some particularly uncomfortable, to some, piece of our history. Am i paranoid? Certainly those of us with an interest and knowledge of AA history know of Helen's existence and role in Bills life. Does anyone have any grapevine editor information from this time period? Any thoughts about the absense of information, at least according to the grapevine? Thanks all. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8180. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Today From: pamelafro88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2012 6:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII GSO in New York has a series of "AA Today"in their library - have used them for research in situ. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8181. . . . . . . . . . . . Jimmy Hodges passed away Friday, February 3, 2012 From: Doc G . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2012 1:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All As many of know Jimmy Hodges passed away peacefully at home this past Friday evening, February 3, 2012. He died with 53 years of sobriety and a legacy of a huge positive influence in the lives of countless people in recovery. If you could share this with others by posting at your meetings/Announcements I appreciate it. Services for Jimmy Hodges February 18th - 3pm AA Raynor 318 E. 71st St Chicago ALSO March 10th 1-3:30pm Jimmy Hodges Memorial Mustard Seed 507 W. North Ave. Chicago Snacks will be served **Please bring any photos of JImmy and if you care to share a story about how Jimmy impacted your life. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8182. . . . . . . . . . . . CD's available: Mel B., Glenn Chesnut, Wyatt Mullinax in FtWayne From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2012 2:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII CD's are now available of these three talks and the follow-up discussion afterwards. Two disks for $10 plus $2 shipping = $12 made payable to Alcoholics Anonymous (this will be used to help defray the cost of the conference and its luncheon, which were free to all attendees) Fort Wayne Central Office 2118 Inwood Drive, Suite 112 Ft. Wayne IN 46815 Central Office phone no. 260 471-6262 CONFERENCE FLYER AT: http://hindsfoot.org/zz-ftwayne-symposium.pdf ********************************** MESSAGE #8056 Any chance that someone could tape this and share it? I'd love to hear this, but Ft. Wayne is a bit of a hike from Sierra Vista, Arizona. Peace and serenity, Bryan - - - - MESSAGE #8077 From: "Dolores" dolli@dr-rinecker.de> Hi, would like to join ´the tapes request as Munich,Germany is far away too. Take care, Dolores - - - - From: Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net> I would buy a recording, too. T - - - - From: Roy Levin royslev@yahoo.com> Yeah, Glenn, I'd love to be there. I saw another responder ask if you're taping it and making recordings available. I'd like to ditto that request. Regards, Roy L. - - - - From: "John French" johnff@gmail.com> Ditto on the taping -- Costa Rica is even further than Arizona from the hoosier state! John French ********************************** ORIGINAL MESSAGE #8063 Mel B., Glenn Chesnut, Wyatt Mullinax speaking on January 14, 2012 10:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. -- Fort Wayne, Indiana Tradition 3: The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking ============ The speakers: MEL B. (Toledo, Ohio), co-author of Pass It On, the biography of Bill Wilson, plus numerous other books on AA history and spirituality GLENN CHESNUT (South Bend, Indiana), Professor Emeritus of History and Religious Studies at Indiana University, the creator of hindsfoot.com Dr. WYATT MULLINAX (Fort Wayne, Indiana), Commission for a Drug Free Indiana, author of the Cognitive Skill Training program used by the Indiana Department of Correction in its facilities, including Substance Abuse Treatment and Pre-Release/Transition Programming ============ Questions? Need more information call: Ray M. (260) 804-6661 or Andy D. (260) 579-0770 ********************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8183. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2012 3:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Another piece of the puzzle that may not fit - Nancy O. replaced the biography she had written about Hank P. with one written by Mike O., DeBary, FL - http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/75 This bio retells the June 1942 confrontation in Cleveland - "The committee's CPA carefully examined the audit, read it aloud, pronounced it accurate beyond question, and thus completely exonerated Bill." - Nancy's bio of Hank P contained "Hank had been in charge of Works Publishing's finances, and when called on to make an accounting, he was unable to produce any records to indicate where the money had gone. Apparently there was no clear line drawn between Honor Dealers, Works Publishing, and Alcoholic Foundation expenses, or even between expenses Hank incurred in conjunction with his Works Publishing activities and his personal expenses. When he was confronted with this at a stockholders' meeting, he became very resentful and began inventing stories about his office being robbed and his records disappearing. It was at this meeting that Dr. Silkworth saw signs of paranoia in Hank and soon warned Bill that he might become dangerous. Some blurring of the financial picture was inevitable when it came to Ruth Hock, who was simultaneously working for Honor Dealers, Works Publishing, and the Alcoholic Foundation, which were all headquartered in the same office. " If there were no records in NY ["No clear line drawn between Honor Dealers, Works Publishing, and Alcoholic Foundation expenses..."], then how could the "Cleveland committee's CPA ... pronounced it accurate beyond question" - And more to the point, finding where the money came from to repay any/all of the loans/donations if indeed any/all of it was repaid won't be easy - Larry (410) 802-3099 Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8184. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2012 6:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurence Holbrook, Clyde G., and gadgetsdad - - - - From: "Laurence Holbrook" email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) I could find no reference to that expression (Trust God, clean house, help others) in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, Pass It On, As Bill Sees It, the Akron pamphlet nor the Grapevine Archive prior to 1970 - Mitchell K reported in "How It Worked", The Story of Clarence H. Snyder that, "Doc told him [Clarence Snyder] the most important things in life were to, 'Trust God, clean house and help others.'" (pp 71) - Also on pp 211, "Clarence summarized to the author [Mitchell K] his view of the difference between New York and Mid-West A.A. Clarence felt that the approach in Ohio was, "Trust God, Clean House, and Help Others." He felt that the approach in New York was, "Don't Drink and Go To Meetings."* Considering Clarence's allegations, it's odd that the expression is not mentiond in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers nor Ed Webster's "Little Red Book" either - The complete expression is absent from AA - Helping others is mentioned several times with slight variations, notably on pp 97, "Helping others is the foundation stone of your recovery." - the rest of the expression can be found in AA on the next page (pp 98), "The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." - It was passed to me from my sponsor (circa 2001) and is commonly accepted in the Baltimore area as a summary of the program, although I don't recall the expression ever being attributed to Dr. Bob - *[As an aside, BryLin Psychiatric Hospital in Buffalo, New York offered an inpatient detox/treatment program called Rush Hall (approx 1976-1988), named for Benjamin Rush - I recall a prominently displayed banner "DDAGTM" in 1981] Larry Holbrook (410) 802-3099 - - - - From: "CloydG" cloydg449@sbcglobal.net> (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) I would like to point out that they did write: "Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only requirement is that he trust in God and clean house." Which just happens to be written in the Chapter, "Working with others". Who authored this would be the question I have for the group! In love and service, Clyde G - - - - From: gadgetsdad gadgetsdad@yahoo.com> (gadgetsdad at yahoo.com) The sad thing is that forgeries and reinactments fly through the fellowship as a whole faster than fact. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8185. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2012 7:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A well intentioned, but misinformed person posted this on Find-A-Grave as Hank P's resting place because it made the most sense at to where he would be buried. He is not. I contacted the church who confirmed he is not buried here. He was cremated, so there is always the chance he is sitting on someone's mantle somewhere or scattered over something or someplace. Still working on it as far as Mercer count's other cemeteries. I will seek to have this Find-A-Grave removed. Thanks for the assist tho. Brian Koch - - - - On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, Baileygc23@aol.com discovered a claim on the Find-A-Grave website that Hank Parkhurst's grave had now been located: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=72971769 [7] Henry G "Hank" Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8186. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2012 7:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From john wikelius, Stephen Gentile, and Brian Koch ONE REFERENCE IN THE GRAPEVINE TO "HELEN W." AS MANAGING EDITOR - - - - From: john wikelius justjohn1431946@yahoo.com> (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) From the December 1961 Grapevine. Page 46. "We hastily add that the whole deal was cooked up between him (story on page 3) and Managing Editor Helen W., because one thing we want to avoid around here is nepotism, which is defined as "showing favoritism to relatives". - - - - From: Stephen Gentile sagentile@hotmail.com> (sagentile at hotmail.com) Hi Brian, I did a search on the aagrapevine.org in the Digital archive area for Helen, because Wynn wouldn't be searchable as to Anonymity in the magazine, and came up with result number 35 as listed here: December 1961 Grapevine article P. S. From the Editor We might as well tell you right off the bat that the article beginning on page 3 was written by our son. We hastily add that the whole deal was cooked up between him and Managing Editor Helen W., because one thing we want to avoid around here is nepotism, which is defined as "showing favoritism to relatives." Steve G in New Jersey - - - - From: "B" kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com) I followed a snippet given to me by a friend and found reference to Helen W as the managing editor in a December 1961 issue of the GV. As follows: December 1961 Vol. 18 No. 7P. S. From the Editor We might as well tell you right off the bat that the article beginning on page 3 was written by our son. We hastily add that the whole deal was cooked up between him and Managing Editor Helen W., because one thing we want to avoid around here is nepotism, which is defined as "showing favoritism to relatives." It must be made clear, too, that our son's mother--our first and only wife, a member of Al-Anon--must be given full credit for keeping this boy (then about twelve) on an even keel when the family ties were threatened by what she charitably called our "over-drinking." The things active alcoholics do to their families are inhuman and cruel, especially to frightened and bewildered youngsters. It is comforting to know that, in this case, one boy's life was not twisted and warped; but only because this drunk's loyal gal had love, wisdom, courage, patience, understanding and deep faith. Like our son and our wife, we are looking forward to a seventh sober Christmas with our family, who are no longer tense and fearful of what tomorrow may bring. No diversion could keep us from attending that regular Monday night open meeting (which this year will take place Christmas night) and hearing the laughter as the group's "unlikely-looking Santa Claus" distributes from a laundry bag the amusing junk we all contribute to the party. And a Merry Christmas to you, too. Helen W mentioned as Managing Editor right here in an issue of the grapevine...hmmmmm.... --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote: > > Friends, > > Having read some of the Hartigan book on Bill W for a second time, I am searching to verify some of his information. Specifically, in the section/chapter titled "The Other Woman" he talks about Helen Wynn. In part of this chapter he mentions that Bill secured her a job at the AA grapevine, and she rose to the position of Editor of AA Grapevine. I find this hard to believe on the surface as she had no qualifications in the print media industry. He further states that she left the grapevine in 1962. I emailed the Grapevine and asked for a list of all editors of the magazine since its inception, and received a list from the office manager. No Helen Wynn. However, after looking more closely at the list, there was a time gap, the year 1961. This would possibly coincide with Helen's being in the position, if it were true. I re-queried, and was told that possibly the managing editor was doing the job at the time. I re-re-queried and asked for that persons name so as to be able to complete the timeline...The last email was "Unfortunately, I cannot find any information on that gap...sorry." Now it seems very unusual that no information would exist from the 60's regarding who was running our meeting in print. I sense some attempt to erase some particularly uncomfortable, to some, piece of our history. Am i paranoid? Certainly those of us with an interest and knowledge of AA history know of Helen's existence and role in Bills life. Does anyone have any grapevine editor information from this time period? Any thoughts about the absense of information, at least according to the grapevine? Thanks all. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8187. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2012 3:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII B wrote: "Does anyone have any Grapevine editor information from this time period? Any thoughts about the absence of information, at least according to the Grapevine? Thanks all." Up until 1962 the editors of the GV were people who held another paid position within the AA service structure thus relieving the GV of the salary burden. Jim P.S. Bob P's unpublished manuscript on The History of AA devotes an entire chapter to the Grapevine and the name of Helen Wynn does not appear in it. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8188. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2012 3:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Helen, placed in Bill's codicil Will as a beneficiary around 1962, would have known him for more than a few years to earn that status, wouldn't you think? She may have been a staffer only; the Gv Office keeps 4 or 5 today, and Helen could have been a simple clerk, in its circulation department, etc. before then. What's important to my understanding is that she was a divorced mother who lived nearby to Bill and Lois' home, was available to him within a short distance, and was part of the office pool in contact with Bill on a regular basis. Honestly, either Bill or Helen waived their individual "off limits" status for a romantic relationship. Helen, Bill's "Other Woman," was perhaps the muse that Lois was not. It was a long affair, and Bill and Lois eventually reconciled to staying together. Helen's son is attributed with providing Bill with words for his last talk, the "thank you for your lives" quote, so the ongoing Wilson + Wynn relationship may have continued platonically. My two cents, Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8189. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2012 11:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The General Service Conference Final Reports show Helen Wynn listed as a Grapevine staff member, but never as editor. She was shown on the reports for 1957 - 1961. The 1959,1960 and 1961 reports show her on the Editorial Staff list. Hope this helps a little Charles from Wisconsin ********************************************* 1955 Conference Report A .A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS Sidney Allen, Secretary-Treasurer Don Goddard, Chairman-Editor J. Seegar Heavilin Tom 0 ' Brien, Jr . Sigurd P . Sandmore STAFF Louise Shonts Katherine Swentzel Sarah Thompson ********************************************* 1956 Conference Report A.A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS Russell Clancy, Secretary-Treasurer Don Goddard, Chairman-Editor J. Seegar Heavilin Tom O'Brien, Jr., Vice-Chairman Sigurd P. Sandmore STAFF Louise Shonts, Ass't. to Ed. Katherine Swentzel Sarah Thompson ********************************************* 1957 Conference Report A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS Russell Clancy, Secretary-Treasurer Don Goddard, Chairman-Editor J. Seegar Heavilin Tom O'Brien, Jr., Vice-Chairman Sigurd P. Gandmore STAFF Louise Shonts, Ass't. to Editor Katherine Swentzel Sarah Thompson Helen Wynn ********************************************* 1958 Conference Report A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS Russell Clancy, Via President Joe Flynn , President-Editor Tom O'Brien, Jr., Treasurer Louise Shonts Alfred Steckman Richard A. Stevens, Chairman Katharine Swentzel (D'ced) STAFF Louise Shonts Katharine Swentzel Sarah Thompson Helen Wynn Doris Holmer ********************************************* 1959 Conference Report A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS Joseph J. Flym, Editor Robert MacDevitt, Treasurer Russell Clancy, Vice-chairman Louise S. Shonts Alfred Steckman Richard A. Stevens, Chairman STAFF(Editorial) Louise S. Shonts Sarah Thompson Helen Wynn (Circulation) Doris Holmes ********************************************* 1960 Conference Report AA GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS Robert MacDevitt. Treasurer Louise Shouts Alfred Stedrman Richard A. Stevens, Chairman Gurney Williams, Editor STAFF (Editorial) Louise Shouts Sarah Thompson Helen Wynn ********************************************* 1961 Conference Report AA. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS Robert MacDevitt. Treasurer Helen Wynn Alfred Stedrman Richard A. Stevens, Chairman Gurney Williams, Editor Max Wylie Mary Benuon STAFF (Editorial) Lee Bcckwith Helen Wynn ********************************************* 1962 Conference Report A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS Jerome Ellison, Editor-Publisher Mary Bernson Don Goddard Austin MacCormick Robert MacDevitt, Treasurer Richard A. Stevens, Chairman Max Wylie STAFF (Editorial) Lee Beckwith Paula Carpenter ********************************************* IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8190. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine From: Matt Dingle . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2012 4:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII B, Helen Wynn did run the Grapevine. I think Jerry Ellison came after her. Sometime (probably after that) Tom White ran it. I don't have the exact dates, though. Matt IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8191. . . . . . . . . . . . pp.172-173 Dr. Bob's Nightmare: the company he worked for From: Fritz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2012 7:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Searching for documented proof of the company name that Robert H. Smith worked for when he left Dartmouth. Verifiable history, not hearsay information or opinion is required for my purpose. Please help if possible. Grateful for this B4 me, Fritz689 - - - - A NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: in pages 172-173 of the Big Book, Dr. Bob says "After high school came four years in one of the best colleges in the country [Dartmouth] where drinking seemed to be a major extra-curricular activity .... I was graduated "summa cum laude" in the eyes of the drinking fraternity, but not in the eyes of the Dean [in 1902]. The next three years I spent in Boston, Chicago, and Montreal in the employ of a large manufacturing concern, selling railway supplies, gas engines of all sorts, and many other items of heavy hardware. During these years, I drank as much as my purse permitted, still without paying too great a penalty .... My next move was to take up the study of medicine, entering one of the largest universities in the country [the University of Michigan in Fall 1905]." TO CONTINUE THE STORY: (taking the dates and details here from Arthur S's Narrative Timeline of AA History at http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/1881_1904.html ) In Fall 1907, Dr Bob was forced to leave the University of Michigan due to his drinking. He transferred as a junior to Rush Medical College near Chicago. In 1910 Dr Bob received his medical degree from Rush and then obtained a 2-year internship at City Hospital in Akron, Ohio. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8192. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W's conversation with the atheistic doctor From: Frank in LA . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2012 4:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Wilson tells a story somewhere about having dinner with a doctor whose views could be described as basically atheistic. Bill related to the dinner party the story of his spectacular spiritual experience, and the doctor offered an alternate explanation. Bill got quite heated up and lectured the good doctor for a fair part of the evening. Years later, Bill spoke to the doctor's wife. Her husband had just died, after a protracted and painful illness which he had kept mainly to himself, not wanting to burden those around him. He was a man of great service, and kindness, this atheist doctor. And forbearance it would seem -- as he patiently let Bill hold forth that night without any counterargument. Bill ended this story by recognizing that the doctor was "a man of great spiritual worth." And Bill said that he had to admit that "my own spiritual awakening had given me a built-in faith in God .... but I had been neither humble nor wise. Boasting of my faith, I had forgotten my ideals. Pride and irresponsibility had taken their place." Can someone please point me to the source of this piece? It's been years since I read it, and I can't seem to find it again. Thank you. _________________________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR: HERE IS THE FULL ORIGINAL ARTICLE The Dilemma of No Faith by Bill Wilson, AA Grapevine, April 1961 The phrase "God As We Understand Him" is perhaps the most important expression to be found in our whole AA vocabulary. Within the compass of these five significant words there can be included every kind and degree of faith, together with the positive assurance that each of us may choose his own. Scarcely less valuable to us are those supplemental expressions - "A Higher Power" and "A Power Greater Than Ourselves." For all who deny, or seriously doubt a deity, these frame an open door over whose threshold the unbeliever can take his first easy step into a reality hitherto unknown to him - the realm of faith. In AA such breakthroughs are everyday events. They are all the more remarkable when we reflect that a working faith had once seemed an impossibility of the first magnitude to perhaps half of our present membership of three hundred thousand. To all these doubters has come the great discovery that as soon as they could cast their main dependence upon a "higher power" - even upon their own AA groups - they had turned that blind corner which had always kept the open highway from their view. From this time on - assuming they tried hard to practice the rest of the AA program with a relaxed and open mind - an ever deepening and broadening faith, a veritable gift, had invariably put in its sometimes unexpected and often mysterious appearance. We much regret that these facts of AA life are not understood by the legion of alcoholics in the world around us. Any number of them are bedeviled by the dire conviction that if ever they go near AA they will be pressured to conform to some particular brand of faith or theology. They just don't realize that faith is never a necessity for AA membership; that sobriety can be achieved with an easily acceptable minimum of it; and that our concepts of a higher power and God as we understand Him afford everyone a nearly unlimited choice of spiritual belief and action. How to transmit this good news is one of our most challenging problems in communication, for which there may be no fast or sweeping answer. Perhaps our public information services could begin to emphasize this all-important aspect of AA more heavily. And within our own ranks we might well develop a more sympathetic awareness of the acute plight of these really isolated and desperate sufferers. In their aid we can settle for no less than the best possible attitude and the most ingenious action that we can muster. We can also take a fresh look at the problem of "no faith" as it exists right on our own doorstep. Though three hundred thousand did recover in the last twenty-five years, maybe half a million more have walked into our midst, and then out again. No doubt some were too sick to make even a start. Others couldn't or wouldn't admit their alcoholism. Still others couldn't face up to their underlying personality defects. Numbers departed for still other reasons. Yet we can't well content ourselves with the view that all these recovery failures were entirely the fault of the newcomers themselves. Perhaps a great many didn't receive the kind and amount of sponsorship they so sorely needed. We didn't communicate when we might have done so. So we AA's failed them. Perhaps more often than we think, we still make no contact at depth with those suffering the dilemma of no faith. Certainly none are more sensitive to spiritual cocksureness, pride and aggression than they are. I'm sure this is something we too often forget. In AA's first years I all but ruined the whole undertaking with this sort of unconscious arrogance. God as I understood Him had to be for everybody. Sometimes my aggression was subtle and sometimes it was crude. But either way it was damaging - perhaps fatally so - to numbers of non-believers. Of course this sort of thing isn't confined to Twelfth Step work. It is very apt to leak out into our relationships with everybody. Even now, I catch myself chanting that same old barrier-building refrain, "Do as I do, believe as I do - or else!" Here's a recent example of the high cost of spiritual pride. A very tough-minded prospect was taken to his first AA meeting. The first speaker majored on his own drinking pattern. The prospect seemed impressed. The next two speakers (or maybe lecturers) each themed their talks on "God as I understand Him." This could have been good, too, but it certainly wasn't. The trouble was their attitude, the way they presented their experience. They did ooze arrogance. In fact, the final speaker got far overboard on some of his personal theological convictions. With perfect fidelity, both were repeating my performance of years before. Quite unspoken, yet implicit in everything they said, was the same idea - "Folks, listen to us. We have the only true brand of AA - and you'd better get it!" The new prospect said he'd had it - and he had. His sponsor protested that this wasn't real AA. But it was too late; nobody could touch him after that. He also had a first class alibi for yet another bender. When last heard from, an early appointment with the undertaker seemed probable. Fortunately, such rank aggression in the name of spirituality isn't often seen nowadays. Yet this sorry and unusual episode can be turned to good account. We can ask ourselves whether, in less obvious but nevertheless destructive forms, we are not more subject to fits of spiritual pride than we had supposed. If constantly worked at, I'm sure that no kind of self-survey could be more beneficial. Nothing could more surely increase our communication with each other and with God. Many years ago a so-called "unbeliever" brought me to see this very clearly. He was an M.D. and a fine one. I met him and his wife Mary at the home of a friend in a midwestern city. It was purely a social evening. Our fellowship of alcoholics was my sole topic and I pretty much monopolized the conversation. Nevertheless, the doctor and his lady seemed truly interested and he asked many questions. But one of them made me suspect that he was an agnostic, or maybe an atheist. This promptly triggered me, and I set out to convert him, then and there. Deadly serious, I actually bragged about my spectacular spiritual experience of the year before. The doctor mildly wondered if that experience might not be something other than I thought it was. This hit me hard, and I was downright rude. There had been no real provocation; the doctor was uniformly courteous, good humored and even respectful. Not a little wistfully, he said he often wished he had a firm faith, too. But plainly enough, I had convinced him of nothing. Three years later I revisited my midwestern friend. Mary, the doctor's wife, came by for a call and I learned that he had died the week before. Much affected, she began to speak of him. His was a noted Boston family, and he'd been Harvard educated. A brilliant student, he might have gone on to fame in his profession. He could have enjoyed a wealthy practice and a social life among old friends. Instead, he had insisted on being a company doctor in what was a strife-torn industrial town. When Mary had sometimes asked why they didn't go back to Boston, he would take her hand and say, "Maybe you are right, but I can't bring myself to leave. I think the people at the company really need me." Mary then recalled that she had never known her husband to complain seriously about anything, or to criticize anyone bitterly. Though he appeared to be perfectly well, the doctor had slowed down in his last five years. When Mary prodded him to go out evenings, or tried to get him to the office on time, he always came up with a plausible and good-natured excuse. Not until his sudden last illness did she know what all this while he had carried about a heart condition that could have done him in at any moment. Except for a single doctor on his own staff, no one had an inkling. When she reproached him about this, he simply said, "Well, I could see no good in causing people to worry about me - especially you, my dear." This was the story of a man of great spiritual worth. The hallmarks were plain to be seen: humor and patience, gentleness and courage, humility and dedication, unselfishness and love - a demonstration I might never come near to making myself. This was the man I had chided and patronized. This was the "unbeliever" I had presumed to instruct! Mary told us this story more than twenty years ago. Then, for the first time, it burst in upon me how very dead faith can be - when minus responsibility. The doctor had an unwavering belief in his ideals. But he also practiced humility, wisdom and responsibility. Hence his superb demonstration. My own spiritual awakening had given me a built-in faith in God - a gift indeed. But I had been neither humble nor wise. Boasting of my faith, I had forgotten my ideals. Pride and irresponsibility had taken their place. By so cutting off my own light, I had little to offer my fellow alcoholics. At last I saw why many had gone away - some of them forever. Therefore, faith is more than our greatest gift; its sharing with others is our greatest responsibility. So may we of AA continually seek the wisdom and the willingness by which we may well fulfill that immense trust which the Giver of all perfect gifts has placed in our hands. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8193. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps From: tablemate1987 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2012 6:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The set of early AA beginners lessons entitled "Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps" We know it has been called the "Detroit pamphlet", the "Washington DC pamphlet," and also "The Table Leaders Guide." Our Washington State history book -- "Our Stories Disclose" -- says that it arrived here in Seattle in July of 1944 and that Big Pete P. talked the visitor from back east out of his copy of the "Table Mate" published by the "Paragon Press of Washington D.C." We would like to know who changed the name to the "Table Mate"? If anyone has any info on this or Paragon press? It would be much appreciated. yis Michael G. _______________________________________ THE PAMPHLET DIVIDES THE DISCUSSION OF THE TWELVE STEPS INTO FOUR LESSONS: 1. The Admission http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html 2. The Spiritual Phase http://hindsfoot.org/Detr2.html 3. Inventory and Restitution http://hindsfoot.org/Detr3.html 4. Active Work http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8194. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2012 7:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is a list provided by the Grapevine. At first glance, no Helen Wynn. At subsequent closer glance, no 1961. As i mentioned before the grapevine office claims no information for this missing year. Grapevine Editors Volunteer Tom Yutzy 1944-1946 Al Steckman 1946-1948 Sig Heavilin April 1952-Jan 1954 Sig Sandmore 1954-1955 Don Goddard 1955-1958 (Chairman and Editor) Joseph Flynn 1958-1960 (President and Editor) Gurney Williams April 1963-May 1964 (Editor and Publisher) Paid Jerry Ellison Jan 1962-Apr 1963 (Editor and Publisher) Tom White May 1964-Jul 1967 (part-time) Jack Morley 1969-May 1978 (Editor) Paula Carpenter 1968-1976 (Managing Editor) Retha Gresham May 1978-Oct 1987 (Managing Editor) Ann Warner 1982-1987 (Editor) 1988-1996 (Executive Editor) Ames Sweet 1987-1996 (Managing Editor) 1996-2000 (Executive Editor) Cynthia Keyworth Jan 2001-Dec 2001 (Interim Managing Editor) Desmond Towey Sep 2001-Jan2004 (Executive Editor) Charles McGovern Jan 2002-Aug 2004 (Managing Editor) Robin Bromley Apr 2004-May 2010 (Executive Editor) Amber Eden Jul 2008-Present (Managing Editor) Ami Brophy Nov 2010-Present (Executive Editor/Publisher) --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Matt Dingle wrote: > > B, > Helen Wynn did run the Grapevine. I think Jerry Ellison came after her. Sometime (probably after that) Tom White ran it. I don't have the exact dates, though. > Matt > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8195. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2012 10:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hank is also noted on Find-A-Grave as AA # 3 which is also obviously not true. How did the church confirm Hank is NOT buried there (records check or physical knowledge) and how was it confirmed he was cremated. Any additional information from anyone about Hank's remains would be appreciated. I do like the thought of his "sitting on a mantle" somewhere ...... Stepping Stones, perhaps J In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst -----Original Message----- From: brian koch Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave A well intentioned, but misinformed person posted this on Find-A-Grave as Hank P's resting place because it made the most sense at to where he would be buried. He is not. I contacted the church who confirmed he is not buried here. He was cremated, so there is always the chance he is sitting on someone's mantle somewhere or scattered over something or someplace. Still working on it as far as Mercer count's other cemeteries. I will seek to have this Find-A-Grave removed. Thanks for the assist tho. Brian Koch - - - - On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, Baileygc23@aol.com discovered a claim on the Find-A-Grave website that Hank Parkhurst's grave had now been located: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=72971769 [7] Henry G "Hank" Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8196. . . . . . . . . . . . When did the INFORMED group concience phrase appear? From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2012 8:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When and where did the term "informed group conscience" first begin to appear in AA language? During a Traditions Study it was noted that the long and short form of Tradition 2 reads in part "... a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience". Sometime in our history, the phrase "INFORMED group conscience" became common in general service and some group business meetings. I began a search and found the current pamphlet "The AA Group" on page 28 answers the question, "What is an Informed Group Conscience?" I found an article from Box 459 Feb/March 1989 titled, "In A.A.'s Benign Anarchy" Informed Group Conscience Is Our Ultimate Authority." The Twelve and Twelve does not used "informed". Once in the context of speaking about the experience which elder statesmen provide to a group, it says, "This is the experience which has led us to the conclusion that our group conscience, well-advised by its elders, will be in the long run wiser than any single leader." This may have some connection, but a stretch at this point. I would like to know from those who may have earlier versions of the AA Group pamphlet, which I believe evolved from a pamphlet of a different title, could help us learn when and where the term "informed group conscience" first began to appear in AA language. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8197. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W's conversation with the atheistic doctor From: sabourin1987 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2012 8:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From sabourin1987 and Frank in LA - - - - From: "sabourin1987" km2blv@gmail.com> (km2blv at gmail.com) I have a small booklet, maybe 3x5 inches, entitled "The Best of Bill from the Grapevine: Faith, Fear, Honesty, Humility, Love" containing five articles on these subjects, reprinted from the Grapevine. Copyrights dated 1958, 1961, 1962. The first article in the booklet, entitled "God as We Understand Him" is the same as the story that the moderator attributes to the April, 1961 Grapevine. - - - - From: "Frank in LA" rul6t2@yahoo.com> (rul6t2 at yahoo.com) Thanks much. Nice to have the whole article again. And wonderful to see that whatever his faults, Bill also practiced a brand of humility that's really inspiring. No doubt he had his lapses there too, but he tried, and that means a lot to me. Best regards, Frank IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8198. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve S... From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2012 2:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Another reference to the Seattle story: http://www.eskimo.com/~burked/history/tablemat.html Please note where it says here that the booklet called "The Table Mate" as currently available in the Seattle area has been considerably expanded, and contains additional material which was not present in the original Washington D.C./Detroit pamphlet of the 1940's. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8199. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: pp.172-173 Dr. Bob's Nightmare: the company he worked for From: John . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2012 2:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to this article about Dr. Bob's father (Walter Perrin Smith), it was the Fairbanks, Morse Company, Chicago where the young Dr. Bob was working in 1904. John ============================== WALTER P. SMITH http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vermont/71SuccessfulVermontersWalterPSmith .htm\ l [10] SMITH, WALTER PERRIN, son of John S. and Sophronia M. (Perrin) Smith, was born in Hardwick, Vermont, November 4, 1841. Mr. Smith fitted for college at Hardwick academy, and the People's academy at Morrisville, Vermont, and graduated from the University of Vermont in 1867. He pursued the course at the Law department of Michigan university and subsequently completed his legal studies with Powers & Gleed at Morrisville, and was admitted to the bar of Lamoille county in May, 1869. He soon after came to St. Johnsbury and formed a partnership in law with Hon. Jonathan Ross, which continued until the latter was elected to the bench. Mr. Smith was state attorney of Caledonia county from 1874 to '76. He has served as superintendent of schools. He was elected to the legislature from St. Johnsbury in 1880, and served on the judiciary and other important committees. In 1882 he was elected judge of probate of Caledonia county, a position in which he has shown such eminent fitness that he has continued to receive the unanimous renominations of the Republican party and successive reelections by the people until the present time. Judge Smith has ever been influential in the political and religious life of St. Johnsbury. He was for several years a director of the Merchants National bank, is a director of the First National bank, and a trustee and vice-president of the Passumpsic Savings bank. An able and effective debater, he has frequently taken the stump during national elections, and delivered addresses on memorial and other public occasions. He is a member of the North Congregational church. He married, in 1876, Susan A., daughter of Dr. Perley R. and Louise M. (Lawrence) Holbrook. They have one son, Robert H. Smith, a graduate of Dartmouth in the class of 1902, and is now in the employ of the Fairbanks, Morse Company, Chicago. Mrs. Smith is an active worker in the beneficent and educational activities of the times, and a member of the state library commission. Source: Successful Vermonters, William H. Jeffrey, E. Burke, Vermont, The Historical Publishing Company, 1904, page 98. Prepared by Tom Dunn August 2005 ============================== A NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: in pages 172-173 of the Big Book, Dr. Bob says "After high school came four years in one of the best colleges in the country [Dartmouth] where drinking seemed to be a major extra-curricular activity .... I was graduated "summa cum laude" in the eyes of the drinking fraternity, but not in the eyes of the Dean [in 1902]. The next three years I spent in Boston, Chicago, and Montreal in the employ of a large manufacturing concern, selling railway supplies, gas engines of all sorts, and many other items of heavy hardware. During these years, I drank as much as my purse permitted, still without paying too great a penalty .... My next move was to take up the study of medicine, entering one of the largest universities in the country [the University of Michigan in Fall 1905]." TO CONTINUE THE STORY: (taking the dates and details here from Arthur S's Narrative Timeline of AA History at http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/1881_1904.html ) In Fall 1907, Dr Bob was forced to leave the University of Michigan due to his drinking. He transferred as a junior to Rush Medical College near Chicago. In 1910 Dr Bob received his medical degree from Rush and then obtained a 2-year internship at City Hospital in Akron, Ohio. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8200. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2012 2:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII His obit led to Blackwell Memorial Home, which when contacted, confirmed body had been sent to Pennington Crematorium. From there the trail dies. I contacted the church, based on records, which appear to be complete. Brian _________________________________________ From: ineedpage63@cox.net Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave Hank is also noted on Find-A-Grave as AA # 3 which is also obviously not true. How did the church confirm Hank is NOT buried there (records check or physical knowledge) and how was it confirmed he was cremated. Any additional information from anyone about Hank's remains would be appreciated. I do like the thought of his "sitting on a mantle" somewhere ...... Stepping Stones, perhaps In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst _________________________________________ From: brian koch Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave A well intentioned, but misinformed person posted this on Find-A-Grave as Hank P's resting place because it made the most sense at to where he would be buried. He is not. I contacted the church who confirmed he is not buried here. He was cremated, so there is always the chance he is sitting on someone's mantle somewhere or scattered over something or someplace. Still working on it as far as Mercer count's other cemeteries. I will seek to have this Find-A-Grave removed. Thanks for the assist tho. Brian Koch IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8201. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: seeking Jimmy who posted on Hugh Selby From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2012 2:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 9:00 PM, trysh travis trysh.travis@gmail.com>wrote: > I recently came across this posting from several years back, which noted > then-recent obituaries for the author Hugh Selby, Jr.: > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1780. > > It was posted by "jimmy" dijmo@yahoo.com> (dijmo at yahoo.com) > > I wonder if "Jimmy" still participates in this list and, if so, if he'd be > willing to contact me? I'd also be interested in anyone else from the LA > area who knew Selby. The standard academic literature on his career > completely erases his connection to the program, which helps to explain a > lot of the nuances in his later writings. > > Please contact me off list if you have information on this topic. > > Thanks, > Trysh Travis > trysh.travis@gmail.com (trysh.travis at gmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8202. . . . . . . . . . . . Mugs from Henry Parkhurst's porcelain company From: Mary Bray . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2012 1:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have some mugs that I believe came from Henry Parkhurst's porcelain company ... Does anyone know anything about it? Can't find any info .... Thank you in advance ... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8203. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st men's group From: shakey . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2012 11:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a photo of Earl Applease which mentions him as being secretary of the first men's group. It is in the cd's of my late sponsor Harry the Wino V. who got sober in Los Angeles Ca. Would any AAHL member know this man and what group he was secretary? Where was the first official men's group? I imagine that due to the growth of AA in Cleveland,in the fellowships early years 1940 to 1950, that is may be there or possibly in LA.I checked the AAHL search engine and found nothing on Earl or as men's group. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Going to NAW 1012 Oct 4-7 in Cocoa Beach Fl. www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8204. . . . . . . . . . . . Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2012 7:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have seen some obits for bill and they mention a Miami Florida Hospital. Does anyone know which hospital it was? Thanks to all my fellow history buffs. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8205. . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's From: kate.frisby . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2012 3:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a photo of Charlie from the Big Book Study that they could send to me? Thanks Kate kate.frisby@yahoo.com> (kate.frisby at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8206. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2012 10:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII His obit states "Interment was at the convenience of the family." (See message #7560 for transcript.) Generally this indicates a cremation. Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8207. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2012 1:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is from Stepping Stones. SAYING FAREWELL In January 1971, Bill was flown in a private jet to the Miami Heart Institute in hopes of finding treatment for his severe emphysema. He is said to have been in good spirits during the flight but much weakened. Bill never received treatment; he died the day he arrived -- January 24, his and Lois' wedding anniversary. They had been married 53 years. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8208. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2012 5:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are about 5 or 6 on Google. - - - - On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:07 AM, kate.frisby wrote: > Does anyone have a photo of Charlie from the Big Book Study that > they could send to me? > > Thanks > Kate > > kate.frisby@yahoo.com> > (kate.frisby at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8209. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2012 1:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cremation has been verified. However, sometimes ashes are buried or a memorial stone is placed somewhere for family and friends to pay respects. Thanks for the info. Brian from Pennsylvania - - - - From: cpknapp@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave His obit states "Interment was at the convenience of the family." (See message #7560 for transcript.) Generally this indicates a cremation. Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8210. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2012 6:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have contacted the Miami Heart Institute/Mount Sinai Hospital in Miami. They could not, for confidentiality reasons, reveal if Bill had been a patient there. I respect that, i guess .... haha. - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 13:53:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? This is from Stepping Stones. SAYING FAREWELL In January 1971, Bill was flown in a private jet to the Miami Heart Institute in hopes of finding treatment for his severe emphysema. He is said to have been in good spirits during the flight but much weakened. Bill never received treatment; he died the day he arrived -- January 24, his and Lois' wedding anniversary. They had been married 53 years. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8211. . . . . . . . . . . . Sister Ignatia's program at St. Thomas hospital in 1951 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2012 2:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA oldtimer William E. Swegan's article on "Kent State University and Sister Ignatia" gives a detailed description of Sister Ignatia's alcoholic ward at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron, as he observed it in 1951: http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc16.pdf This is important for AA historians to read, because already by this early period there were resident psychiatrists at the St. Thomas Hospital to treat any major psychiatric problems, and they were well beyond the primitive karo syrup and sauerkraut detoxing methods. This article is Chapter 16 in Swegan's book The Psychology of Alcoholism, see: http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kbs2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kbs3.html The three most famous types of AA-related early alcoholism treatment programs were: 1. Sister Ignatia's program, which was strongly spiritually oriented. Although she attempted to keep the spirituality fairly nonsectarian, there was certainly an unmistakably Christian flavor to it, and people were encouraged to go pray in the Catholic chapel across the hall. 2. Swegan's Lackland-Long Beach Model, which he began developing in 1953 in San Antonio, Texas (after studying with Searcy Whalen and E. M. Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies and spending a year observing Sister Ignatia's program in Akron). Swegan's treatment philosophy was more in tune with the atheistic and agnostic wing of AA. Bill Swegan himself was not a believer in God in any traditional sense, but worked a program based on the spirituality of devoted love and service to our fellow human beings. Nevertheless, he also achieved a thoroughly documented fifty percent success rate, where fifty percent of the military personnel accepted into his program got sober and stayed sober the first time, with no relapses. 3. The Minnesota Model, which put the alcoholics in a facility where they were almost completely isolated from the outside world. It was totally unlike Sister Ignatia's program (where large numbers of local Akron AA people came to visit the patients regularly) or Swegan's Lackland program (where he drove his patients to attend a number of AA meetings every week in the surrounding civilian community). Hazelden started out in 1949 as simply a big farmhouse and is still to this day located on 500 acres of rural midwestern prairie and woods outside Center City, Minnesota, which itself has a population of only 628. Fiona Dodd remembers how we could still see wild deer roaming the surrounding land, which was originally settled by Swedish farmers. (For a photo of the farmhouse, see around the middle of the page at http://hindsfoot.org/rwcvphot.html ) Over the years, Hazelden came to be guided to greater and greater degree by psychiatrists, psychologists, psychotherapists, and alcoholism counselors, who spoke of chemical dependency and moved the program further and further away from early AA principles. They won control of Hazelden's administration in 1966, and it became a very different place from the one which was originally started by a small group of dedicated AA people in 1949 in the big wooden farmhouse on the prairie. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8212. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2012 5:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The funeral home has over a dozen photes posted in Charlie's Book of Memories and they are above 'net average in resolution. Charles A. Parmley 1929-2011 at the website for the Luginbuel Funeral Homes: http://www.luginbuel.com/ The URL for Charlie's Memorial Photos is so long, that it may not work if you just click on it. You may need to copy this out and paste it in your browser: ______________________________________________ http://luginbuelfuneralhome.frontrunnerpro.com/runtime/3060/runtime.php?Site Id=3\ 060&NavigatorId=54126&op=tributeFamilyPhotos&viewOpt=dpaneOnly&ItemId=723627 &Lin\ kId=282 [11] ______________________________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8213. . . . . . . . . . . . Sgt. Bill Swegan and Jolly West: Lackland-Long Beach Model From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2012 2:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII William E. Swegan and Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West created the earliest version of the Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953. Five years earlier, in 1948, William E. Swegan had started the first officially sanctioned alcoholism treatment program in the U.S. military, at Mitchel Air Force Base on Long Island (just outside New York City), with himself as the only full-time appointed staff member. http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc01.pdf Then in 1953, he and famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West teamed up to form an expanded program at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. See Swegan's description of their methods at: "Lackland: the Fully Developed Treatment Program" http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc17.pdf (This is Chapter 17 of Swegan's book The Psychology of Alcoholism -- see http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html -- this book was originally published in 2003 as "On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program," by Sgt. Bill S. with Glenn F. Chesnut, Ph.D.) 50% of the military personnel admitted to their treatment program got sober and stayed sober the first time through. Others eventually saw the light and got sober afterwards. This is important because Swegan represented the atheistic and agnostic wing of early AA, which practiced a spirituality based on TRULY DEVOTED love and service to other human beings, but with little or no reference to an external personal God figure. This was certainly not an "easier, softer way" -- for most of sixty years, Bill Swegan devoted most of every waking hour to helping other people in one way or another. All who have met Bill Swegan know that he was aglow within with a gentle and all-compassionate love. Think of a Buddhist master who does not believe in a personal God but does practice a life of total humility and absence of personal ambition or pridefulness, combined with compassion towards all. I saw Bill sitting down in the hospitality rooms at AA conventions, and total strangers repeatedly coming up and suddenly talking with him about their deepest torments and fears, and then being calmed and reassured, not so much by the words that he said, as by the love and compassion they could feel shining in him. WARNING: Dr. West's daughter Mary advised me that one should be careful about trusting everything said about her father which appears on the internet. The wikipedia article on him gives the same warning, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Jolyon_West This wikipedia article notes that the attacks on Dr. West began "after he published a textbook in 1980, in which he called Scientology a cult." The wikipedia article relates how, on one American Psychiatric Association panel on cults, where every speaker had received a long letter threatening a lawsuit if Scientology were mentioned, no one mentioned Scientology except West, who was the last speaker: "I read parts of the letter to the 1,000-plus psychiatrists and then told any Scientologists in the crowd to pay attention. I said I would like to advise my colleagues that I consider Scientology a cult and L. Ron Hubbard a quack and a fake. I wasn't about to let them intimidate me." (Psychiatric Times, 1991) Dr. West was in fact the top expert of his era on brain-washing (he was the one who discovered the vital role which sleep deprivation played in genuine brain-washing techniques), and one of the most prominent anti-cult campaigners of that time. This is especially important to note, because West insisted that Alcoholics Anonymous was absolutely NOT a cult or a brain-washing scheme, and if anyone was ever qualified to make that judgment, it was him. ========================================== See West's obituary at http://www.csj.org/announce/annoucement_archives/2000/westdeath.htm LOUIS WEST HAS DIED -- A CULT EXPERT AND MEMBER OF AAA's CULTIC STUDIES JOURNAL EDITORIAL ADVISORY Los Angeles, Jan 7 (Reuters) Psychiatrist Louis Jolyon West, an expert on cults, torture and brainwashing who examined Jack Ruby and Patricia Hearst during their trials, has died at age 74, associates said on Thursday. A spokesman for the University of California at Los Angeles, where West was in charge of the Neuropsychiatric Institute for 20 years before his retirement in 1989, said he died on Saturday of cancer at his home in Los Angeles. West frequently worked as a court-appointed psychiatrist. After examining Ruby, the killer of President John F. Kennedy's assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, West concluded Ruby was suffering from ``major mental illness precipitated by the stress of (his) trial.'' The psychiatrist was also one of four experts who examined newspaper heiress Patty Hearst, who was kidnapped by the so-called Symbionese Liberation Army and who later joined its ranks as a bank robber. The panel found her sane and fit to stand trial, but West wrote that she was "psychologically damaged as a result of torture by the SLA." The experts also urged that Hearst receive treatment for her mental illness before her 1976 trial, but the court ignored the recommendation. "The government finished the destruction of her life started by an anti-government group," West said after Hearst was convicted. Her prison sentence was commuted by President Jimmy Carter in 1979. A civil rights activist, West was the first white psychiatrist to go to South Africa to testify on behalf of black prisoners during the apartheid era. During the Korean War he studied brainwashing and torture. He said at the time that American prisoners of war had falsely confessed to engaging in germ warfare because their captors had instilled a sense of guilt in them through solitary confinement, prolonged sleeplessness and physical abuse, which he called the classic tools of brainwashing. In an interview with the Los Angeles Times, West said the behaviour of cult members and kidnapping victims was driven by the "three 'Ds' - debility, dread and dependence." "A prisoner is debilitated by inactivity, by sleep loss, or worse, by physical harm. He is filled with dread by constant threats of pain or death or harm to his family. He is rendered completely dependent upon his captors for information, food, shelter, life," West said. West, who was born the son of poor Russian Jewish immigrants in Madison, Wisconsin, is survived by his wife Kathryn, son John and daughters Anne and Mary. ========================================== Bill Swegan eventually married Dr. West's daughter Mary Swegan, a marvelously warm and loving person. There is a photo of Bill at the top of this web page: http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aapix02.html And then the second photo down shows both Bill and Mary, standing second and third from the left. ****************************************** For more background, see Message #8211 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8211 THE THREE MOST FAMOUS TYPES OF AA-RELATED ALCOHOLISM TREATMENT PROGRAMS WERE: 1. Sister Ignatia's program, which was strongly spiritually oriented. Although she attempted to keep the spirituality fairly nonsectarian, there was certainly an unmistakably Christian flavor to it, and people were encouraged to go pray in the Catholic chapel across the hall. 2. Swegan's Lackland-Long Beach Model, which he began developing in 1953 in San Antonio, Texas (after studying with Searcy Whalen and E. M. Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies and spending a year observing Sister Ignatia's program in Akron). Swegan's treatment philosophy was more in tune with the atheistic and agnostic wing of AA. Bill Swegan himself was not a believer in God in any traditional sense, but worked a program based on the spirituality of devoted love and service to our fellow human beings. Nevertheless, he also achieved a thoroughly documented fifty percent success rate, where fifty percent of the military personnel accepted into his program got sober and stayed sober the first time, with no relapses. 3. The Minnesota Model, which put the alcoholics in a facility where they were almost completely isolated from the outside world. It was totally unlike Sister Ignatia's program (where large numbers of local Akron AA people came to visit the patients regularly) or Swegan's Lackland program (where he drove his patients to attend a number of AA meetings every week in the surrounding civilian community). Hazelden started out in 1949 as simply a big farmhouse and is still to this day located on 500 acres of rural Midwestern prairie and woods outside Center City, Minnesota, which itself has a population of only 628. Fiona Dodd remembers how we could still see wild deer roaming the surrounding land, which was originally settled by Swedish farmers. (For a photo of the farmhouse, see around the middle of the page at http://hindsfoot.org/rwcvphot.html ) But over the years, Hazelden grew bigger and bigger, and came to be guided to greater and greater degree by psychiatrists, psychologists, psychotherapists, and alcoholism counselors, who spoke of chemical dependency and moved the program further and further away from early AA principles. They won control of Hazelden's administration in 1966, and it became a very different place from the one which was originally started by a small group of dedicated AA people in 1949 in the big wooden farmhouse on the prairie. ****************************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8214. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2012 2:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chapter 16. Twelfth Stepping the Military http://hindsfoot.org/help16.pdf Chapter 17. Alcoholics with Gold Braid http://hindsfoot.org/help17.pdf (Taken from Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism (2003) http://hindsfoot.org/kno1.html ) The Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment was first developed at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953-1961 by William E. Swegan and psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon ("Jolly") West. In Chapter 16, Nancy Olson describes the further development of this type of AA-related alcoholism treatment program by psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Zuska and Navy Commander Dick Jewell at the Long Beach Naval Station in California in the years 1965 and following. (Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and provided the link between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach Navy program.) Dr. Zuska, although not an alcoholic himself, was beloved at a deep personal level by several generations of AA people in that part of California because of all he had done to help alcoholics -- hundreds and hundreds of them owed their lives to him, and they knew it. Betty Ford, wife of U.S. President Ford, was sent to the Long Beach treatment program to get sober, and U.S. President Jimmy Carter's brother Billy Carter was also sent there because of its outstanding record in getting alcoholics sober. Then Nancy goes on in Chapter 17 to describe the hearings before the U.S. Senate subcommittee on alcoholism and drug abuse in the U.S. military in 1970. Also more on Joe Zuska and the Navy alcoholism treatment program which he developed at Long Beach. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8215. . . . . . . . . . . . Photograph in Saturday Evening Post From: Aalogsdon . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2012 12:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a copy of a photograph taken in the late 40s by Jef Coffey. On the back of the photo was marked "SEP, Alcoholics Anon. Des Moines." Subject is picture of a man in black and white walking up a flight of steps toward a door which says in large letters, "Welcome AA". Photo was taken of a meeting place on Locust street in Des Moines Iowa. Need to know date of Saturday Evening Post where this picture was published. Thanks. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8216. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Today From: atpeace1989 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2012 3:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From atpeace, john wikelius, and mrpetesplace - - - - From: atpeace1989@yahoo.com> (atpeace1989 at yahoo.com) A person can still purchase the book in either hard cover or Soft cover if you can find them. E-Bay occasionally has one for sale. I have found a couple of them at Estate Sales. Since most Alcoholics attending them are looking for a first edition they sometimes overlook the other books on the shelf. I have in the past attempted using the concept that it is referred to in "As Bill Sees It" four times that the GSO Literature or the Grapevine reprint it again in a soft cover. But as with most things in AA it takes much time to do something that seems to make sense. Everyone is so wrapped in fear of doing something that nothing happens. - - - - From: john wikelius justjohn1431946@yahoo.com> (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) pamelafro@bigfoot.com> wrote //GSO in New York has a series of "AA Today" in their library - have used them for research in situ.// John replies: I have several copies myself. They are very informative. - - - - From: "mrpetesplace" peter@aastuff.com> (peter at aastuff.com) I'm going to try and find a soft cover this week and scan it for upload. I'll try and do it sometime next weekend. I know I have them, I just don't know the exact box. I don't want to open the hard cover wide and flat, especially since I have a soft cover. I'll keep you posted. Peter IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8217. . . . . . . . . . . . The Story of S.H. Hadley From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2012 1:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Many have seen the abridged story of Sam's Spiritual Experience as told by William James in the Varieties of Religious Experience. For the full story told in Sam's own words please follow the link below. God Bless John B. http://www.bbsgsonj.com/apps/documents/categories/show/48209 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8218. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? From: marathonmanric . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2012 9:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Having grown up in AA in Miami, I was always told that it was the Miami Heart Institute, located on the North side of the Julia Tuttle Causeway as one drove from the mainland over to Miami Beach. It is also said that a Swedish Ivy sat by his bedside which Lois took and cut clippings from and gave to members with the instructions, after rooting their plants to continue cutting clipping, rooting them and to keep passing them on. I have my plant which I have passed on hundreds of times. Ric B 5-14-1995 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8219. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What kind of meetings in 1839 would promote abstinence? From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2012 5:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The meeting was probably a temperance meeting. The Woman's Christian Temperance Union [started later on, in 1873-74] had meetings also for reform of the drinking laws. I have a newspaper from 1815 which addresses Temperance and prohibition from drink. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8220. . . . . . . . . . . . Was it Dr Bob's story? Could he ever drink again? From: Roy Levin . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2012 2:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was it Dr Bob's story, or another early AA's? I seem to remember someone asking Dr. Bob, I think it was Dr Bob, if he would ever drink again, and he replied, "I can't promise you I will never drink again, but as long as I feel the way I'm feeling today, and continue to do what I'm doing (working the program) I don't believe I will drink." This is a paraphrase from memory. I thought it was in Bob's Nightmare, but maybe it's in another early AA's story in the Big Book, or I read it in one of the biographical books somewhere. Can anybody redirect me back to this story or quote from whichever AA book I remember it from? Appreciate it. Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8221. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post From: gadgetsdad . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2012 4:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I checked the magazines. That photo is in the 7/2/1955 issue, Jerome Ellison article. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8222. . . . . . . . . . . . The two hopeless cases? -- Dr. Percy Pollick on BB page 43 From: mlb9292 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2012 10:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who were the 2 men who were described as 100% hopeless on page 43 in the Big Book? We know that the "staff member of a world renowned hospital" was Dr. Percy Pollick at Bellevue Hospital in New York City. But do we know who the two men were? The story in the Big Book says: < > Thanks and God Bless You All ... Old Ben from Tulsa IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8223. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bridge of Reason From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2012 6:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The word reason is used 20 times in the first '164' - once each in the Foreword to the 2nd Edition, There Is A Solution, More About Alcoholism & the Family Afterward - 3 times in both Into Action and To Employers - 4 times in Working With Others - 6 times in We Agnostics - The word reason is capitalized in the expression "Some of us had already walked far over the Bridge of Reason to the desired shore of faith." - and in these two sentences- "We were grateful Reason had brought us so far." - "Perhaps we had been leaning too heavily on Reason that last mile and we did not like to lose our support" - all on pp53 (4th ed) of We Agnostics - I have The Book That Started It All - the original manuscript in it is similarly capitalized - As a matter of note, the word bridge does not appear in the King James version of the Bible - the word reason appears 88 times, none of which is capitalized - Also the word bridge appears in This Believing World 3 times with no reference to the bridge of reason - the word reason is used about 27 times, none capitalized - In "The Decline of the West, the bridge of reason appears once sans capitals (see Exhibit I) - reason was capitalized once (see Exhibit II) out of about 110 usages - it is a digital scan and I couldn't verify with the original - I know there is a hymn "Bridge of Reason, Shore of Faith", but I don't think Bill was referring to that hymn? - What is the "Bridge of Reason"? Why was "Reason" capitalized, twice? Might we have to settle for an educated guess by one of our knowledgeable historians? Larry Holbrook (410) 802-3099 Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com ============================= Exhibit I ============================= This beat of cosmic cycles goes on notwithstanding the freedom of micro- cosmic movement in space, and from time to time breaks down the tension of the waking individual's being into the one grand felt harmony. If we have ever fol- lowed the flight of a bird in the high air -- how, always in the same way, it rises, turns, glides, loses itself in the distance -- we must have felt the plantlike certainty of the "it" and the "we" in this ensemble of motion, which needs no bridge of reason to unite your sense of it with mine. This is the meaning THE COSMIC AND THE MICROCOSM 5 of war-dances and love-dances amongst men and beasts. In this wise a regi-" ment mounting to the assault under fire is forged into a unity, in this wise does the crowd collect at some exciting occasion and become a body, capable of thinking and acting pitifully, blindly, and strangely for a moment ere it falls apart again. In such cases the microcosmic wall is obliterated. If jostles and threatens, if pushes and pulls, if flees, swerves, and sways. Limbs intertwine, feet rush, one cry comes from every mouth, one destiny overlies all. Out of a sum of little single worlds comes suddenly a complete whole. ============================= Exhibit II ============================= We have our Euhemeristic interpretations of Hell as a guilty conscience, the Devil as evil desire, and God as the beauty of nature, and it is the same tendency that declares itself when Attic tomb-in- scriptions of about 400 invoke, not the city-goddess Athene, but a goddess "Demos" -- a near relation, by the way, of the Jacobins' Goddess of Reason -- and where the Sainoviov for Socrates, vovs for other philosophers, take the place of Zeus. Confucius says "heaven" instead of "Shang-ti," which means that he believes only in laws of nature. The "collection" and "ordering" of the canonical writings of China by the Confucians was a colossal act of Euhemer- ism, in which actually almost all the old religious works were literally de- stroyed and the residue subjected to rationalist falsification. ============================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8224. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2012 12:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can supply cover art if you want to identify magazine in your travels. john wikelius justjohn1431946@yahoo.com> (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com) ________________________________ From: gadgetsdad gadgetsdad@yahoo.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post I checked the magazines. That photo is in the 7/2/1955 issue, Jerome Ellison article. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8225. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2012 4:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What photo? Could you kindly tell us WHAT photo you are talking about? Thank You -Cindy Miller NOT sent from an iPhone IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8226. . . . . . . . . . . . AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2012 6:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-02-17/alcohol-anoymous-founde rs-h\ ome-national-landmark/53134838/1 [12] Interesting AA history article in USA Today and other papers today. AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark By Rob Ryser, The (Westchester, N.Y.) Journal NewsUpdated 6d 15h ago Comments BEDFORD HILLS, N.Y. – The royal couple of Alcoholics Anonymous would become as American as the Statue of Liberty under a federal recommendation to crown the home of the group's co-founders as a National Historic Landmark. The high historic honor, which could be official as soon as the spring, would note not only the national importance of the AA movement and the essential role that Bill and Lois Wilson played in it, but would also validate the struggle anyone has had using the 12 steps to overcome an addiction. "What they did and what this program does has had an enormous impact on the country because it's a program for dealing with life as well as a program for dealing with alcoholism," said Jim M. of Somers, a 57-year-old retired accountant who got sober four years ago in AA and is bound by the program's principles to remain anonymous when speaking with the media. "So anything that brings attention to these principles can only help people live better lives and stop hurting other people." Those who are responsible for preserving the Wilson home and 8-acre grounds, known by the name Stepping Stones that the couple gave it, see the landmark status as part of a natural progression of increasing recognition for the Wilsons' accomplishments. Bill Wilson co-founded AA and declared alcoholism a disease decades before doctors did. Lois Wilson co-founded Al-Anon for families of alcoholics and made provisions for her home to be a resource for recovery after her death. Stepping Stones Foundation Bill and Lois Wilson sit outside their home, Stepping Stones, in 1960. While for years the nonprofit's use of the home in this neighborhood raised few objections, the increasing visibility of the AA shrine has started to bother some neighbors. The irony is at a time when the Wilsons' contributions are being recognized in a wider national context, their property is being scrutinized more narrowly by neighbors, said Annah Perch, executive director of the Stepping Stones Foundation. The stewards of the Wilson legacy do not see greatly increased numbers of people coming to the site as a result of landmark status beyond the 3,000 annual visitors Stepping Stones has attracted since it was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 2004. "Stepping Stones is not the typical historic preservation site," said James Moogan of Kent, a retired deputy commissioner of the state Parks Department and president of the Stepping Stones Foundation board. "It is more of a pilgrimage that is not really on the radar." But don't tell that to Diane Briganti, 56, who lives across the street from the Wilson home entrance and keeps notes and photos of cars, crowds, buses and trucks arriving for Stepping Stones events. She has fought against the home because she says it detracts from property values in the residential neighborhood. "This is a negative," Briganti said. "It could be a cellphone tower across the street and it would have the same effect on the value of my house." She plans to send a petition to the National Park Service, which is reviewing the recommendation. A historian at the National Park Service's Washington office said the advisory board, which will review the Stepping Stones recommendation before sending it to the Secretary of the Interior, considers all comments from the public. The board's decision will rely heavily on the direction of the committee of experts that has unanimously recommended national landmark status for Stepping Stones, historian Patty Henry said. Henry added that during the spring, a similar landmark effort is planned for the Akron, Ohio, home of Dr. Bob Smith, the surgeon who co-founded AA and helped Wilson develop the peer treatment concept of one drunk helping another drunk to stay sober. Among the home's items sacred to recovering alcoholics is the kitchen table where Bill Wilson developed the idea that faith in a higher power was a more palatable idea for an alcoholic than faith in God, and the desk in his shed where he wrote about the need for conversion, confession and faith in recovery. Bart Tyler, proprietor of Kelloggs & Lawrence Hardware in downtown Katonah, welcomes the landmark designation. "I can certainly attest to the great many people who come by on foot or in cars or taxis looking for directions to the Stepping Stones property. It is one of the most popular destinations that brings visitors to our town." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8227. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2012 6:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am a 23 year military veteran sober all of that time. I am an AA history buff with a great interest in AA history especially when it is connected to the military. this is a fascinating topic for me, I have read both "With a lot of help from our friends" and "On the Military Firing lines". I also met Dr Zuska and corresponded by email with Sgt Bill Swegan before they left this earth. I have talked to many members of the early Long Beach Ice Breakers and Dry Docks Groups and both employees and patients at the first Navy treatment center in Long Beach including Frank H. whose office was used for the first 12th step that became the Icebreakers Group - (an underground AA meeting for senior military officials could go similar to Birds of Feather). I would love to discuss the ideas put forth in the book and look forward to getting the new release of Bill Swegan/Glen Chesnut ideas and reviewing what I read. I offer these ideas as food for thought until that can happen. - The AF does not seem to have any records of the "Lackland Model". - My correspondence with Bill Swegan before he passed and my reading of his book did not lead me to the conclusion he was more focused on the psychological and less on the spiritual - I will review to see if I can gleen that theme. - Other than this alleged acquantence, "Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and provided the link between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach Navy program" there seems to be no connection between Lackland and Long Beach treatment attempts and I do not recall Nancy Olsen ever discussing Lackland in the development of legislation, but did know and rely on help from Long beach. Respectfully submitted. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > Chapter 16. Twelfth Stepping the Military > http://hindsfoot.org/help16.pdf > > Chapter 17. Alcoholics with Gold Braid > http://hindsfoot.org/help17.pdf > > (Taken from Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism (2003) http://hindsfoot.org/kno1.html ) > > The Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment was first developed at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953-1961 by William E. Swegan and psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon ("Jolly") West. > > In Chapter 16, Nancy Olson describes the further development of this type of AA-related alcoholism treatment program by psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Zuska and Navy Commander Dick Jewell at the Long Beach Naval Station in California in the years 1965 and following. (Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and provided the link between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach Navy program.) > > Dr. Zuska, although not an alcoholic himself, was beloved at a deep personal level by several generations of AA people in that part of California because of all he had done to help alcoholics -- hundreds and hundreds of them owed their lives to him, and they knew it. > > Betty Ford, wife of U.S. President Ford, was sent to the Long Beach treatment program to get sober, and U.S. President Jimmy Carter's brother Billy Carter was also sent there because of its outstanding record in getting alcoholics sober. > > Then Nancy goes on in Chapter 17 to describe the hearings before the U.S. Senate subcommittee on alcoholism and drug abuse in the U.S. military in 1970. Also more on Joe Zuska and the Navy alcoholism treatment program which he developed at Long Beach. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8228. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model From: planternva2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2012 4:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just a few personal notes on Joe Zuska and the Long Beach facility. I underwent treatment at Long Beach during September and October of 1971 after two months in psychiatric wards on the East Coast. I met (Capt.) Jim B. when he visited to see how the clinic operated. Later, back on the East Coast, we again met and I found I had joined the home group of which he was a member. The Norfolk ARC opened in an abandoned barracks at the Naval Amphibious Station in Virginia Beach before moving to Norfolk Naval Station. In 1972 I deployed to the Western Pacific aboard an aircraft carrier with one other AA aboard, "Hoppy," who had seven years. We pulled into Subic Bay, P.I. on my first AA birthday. The AA population at that time (July, 1972) consisted of Howard, who had been a loner for a number of years, and Dave, a sailor Howard had twelfth stepped three months earlier. On our last visit to Subic in March, '72, the group had grown considerably, they had daily meetings, and a ward in the base hospital set aside for alcoholism treatment. Jim S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8229. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark From: J.BARRY Murtaugh . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2012 11:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Barry Murtaugh and Norm the Tinman - - - - From: "J.BARRY Murtaugh" murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com> (murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com) Quote from Kurt Vonnegut one of my favorite authors © Rolling Stone magazine · May 28,1998, 787:183 The Work to Be Done, by Kurt Vonnegut *"The only specifically American inventions that have made this a better world are Alcoholics Anonymous and jazz, and jazz has no bad side effects."* No one could say it better (except to add the Grateful Dead!) IMHO. bear - - - - From: Norm The Tinman normtinman@yahoo.com> (normtinman at yahoo.com) Hey guys, are we sure it was Bill who called Alcoholism a disease --though reading it was Dr Silkworth first, and Bill had used it at first then stopped along the way. ============================================= QUOTE: "Bill Wilson co-founded AA and declared alcoholism a disease decades before doctors did." FROM: An interesting AA history article in USA Today and other papers today "AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark" http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-02-17/alcohol-anoymous-founde rs-h\ ome-national-landmark/53134838/1 [12] By Rob Ryser, The (Westchester, N.Y.) Journal News BEDFORD HILLS, N.Y. POSTED ON THE AAHL BY: joe chief_roger@yahoo.com> (chief_roger at yahoo.com) ============================================= IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8230. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark From: Jay Pees . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2012 2:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr Benjamin Rush, a signer of the American Declaration of Independence, was the first to describe it as a disease. > > - - - - > > From: Norm The Tinman normtinman@yahoo.com> > (normtinman at yahoo.com) > > Hey guys, are we sure it was Bill who called Alcoholism a disease --though > reading it was Dr Silkworth first, and Bill had used it at first then > stopped along the way. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8231. . . . . . . . . . . . Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2012 3:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist" by Glenn F. Chesnut http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on the Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his story "The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in his article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in May 1968. - - - - This article is part of the ongoing research on "Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous" at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html (Referenced close to the top of page http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8232. . . . . . . . . . . . Sally and David R. Brown rediscover William E. Swegan's work From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2012 4:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "2001: Sally and David R. Brown rediscover William E. Swegan's alcoholism treatment programs of the 1940s and 50s" http://hindsfoot.org/swegmarty.html Bill Swegan's pioneering work in the 1940's and 50's in using AA in institutional alcoholism treatment programs had become largely forgotten by the end of the century. But then c. 2000, what he had done was rediscovered by Sally and David Brown while they were researching their great book on Mrs. Marty Mann, who had been Bill's mentor and patron. (As referenced around the middle of http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html which contains several good photographs of Bill Swegan and one of Marty Mann) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8233. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Swegan on the steps: a nontheistic / atheistic interpretation From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2012 4:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "A nontheistic / atheistic way of working the twelve steps: William E. Swegan" http://hindsfoot.org/atheistswsteps.html An article by Glenn F. Chesnut in which he explains how Sgt. Bill Swegan successfully worked the steps from the standpoint of a dedicated ethical humanism. Swegan thought of his Higher Power in terms of the laws of nature and the healing forces within nature which could return our minds to sanity and reason, in combination with the rationalist's faith that truth and honesty would always ultimately triumph over error and ignorance. We needed to develop a whole lot more faith and trust -- not in some childish idea of a personal God who would magically rescue us from everything if we just spoke the right words -- but faith and trust in ourselves. We needed to replace the compulsion to carry out continual self-sabotage with a new spirit of self-confidence and resolution. ===================================== Or in Bill Swegan's own words, see BILL 'S CHAPTER ON THE TOPIC: Chapter 18. "Recovery through the Twelve Steps" http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc18.pdf as taken from William E. Swegan, The Psychology of Alcoholism (2011). ===================================== (Referenced at the bottom of page http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8234. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist From: Omyword . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2012 10:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is significant in AA history. Am I right to understand that it was added in the Second Edition of Alcoholics Anonymous? Appendix II makes clear that the idea that recovery from alcoholism is and must be from a God-conscious experience in AA, is erroneous; some of the recoveries were of an educational, not a religious experience. What is the History of this document? Is this penned by Bill W.? It seems to me to be spoken in a voice that differs from the 164 pages. If so, is this Bill's maturation or did someone else draft this document? Any input would be welcome. Joe C --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > "Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist" > by Glenn F. Chesnut > > http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html > > Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on the Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his story "The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in his article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in May > 1968. > > - - - - > > This article is part of the ongoing research on > > "Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus > Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous" > > at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html > > > > (Referenced close to the top of page > http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html ) > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8235. . . . . . . . . . . . Appendix II From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2012 1:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe, et al, Appendix II was first published in the second printing of the first edition Big Book in 1941, just about two years after the first printing. In summing up William James' "educational variety," the first full paragraph of page 568 (fourth edition) states: "Most of us think this awareness of Power greater than ourselves is the essence of a spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it: "God-consciousness." Please note the letter "P," in the word Power, is capitalized, indicating God. Thank you for the question concerning the authorship of Appendix II. I have always assumed it was Bill Wilson. Bob S. =========================================== I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is significant in AA history. Am I right to understand that it was added in the Second Edition of Alcoholics Anonymous? Appendix II makes clear that the idea that recovery from alcoholism is and must be from a God-conscious experience in AA, is erroneous; some of the recoveries were of an educational, not a religious experience. What is the History of this document? Is this penned by Bill W.? It seems to me to be spoken in a voice that differs from the 164 pages. If so, is this Bill's maturation or did someone else draft this document? Any input would be welcome. Joe C =========================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8236. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Ralph Pfau: A.A. Author and American Catholic Thinker From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2012 5:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Father Ralph Pfau: Alcoholics Anonymous Author and American Catholic Thinker" by Glenn F. Chesnut http://hindsfoot.org/pfcath.pdf Topics include his founding of the National Catholic Council on Alcoholism (along with its publication the NCCA Blue Book. At that time, James Cardinal McIntyre, who was Archbishop of Los Angeles from 1948 until 1978, was an arch-traditionalist who was deeply opposed to Alcoholics Anonymous. Fr. Ralph, who (when sober) was a skillful ecclesiastical politician, brought in Archbishops Paul Schulte and Joseph Ritter to help him defend A.A., along with Ritter's Auxiliary Bishop John Cody (later John Patrick Cardinal Cody, Archbishop of Chicago). Also the major influence of Spanish translations of his writings on early AA in the Spanish Catholic world (they were originally far more widely available than Spanish translations of the Big Book). Also the topic of scrupulosity and obsessive-compulsive perfectionism, the problem of guilt and shame, the influence of St. Therese of Lisieux's teaching of the Little Way and St. Augustine's anti-Pelagian writings, and theological disagreements with Father Ed Dowling. Also Fr. Ralph's argument that AA dealt only with the via purgativa (and was not involved in the via illuminativa or via unitiva), his insistence that the Big Book taught only natural theology and natural law morality. Also Fr. Ralph's his work to spread the teachings of the early cognitive-behaviorist psychiatrist Dr. Abraham Low and Recovery Inc. (which used the modern study of semantics to counter Freud and Schopenhauer). Also Pfau's theory of sinner saints "sanctified" because their willingness to keep on trying has been "sanctioned" by God, his campaign to win sainthood for Matt Talbot, the Third Covenant Controversy at the AA International in 1950, his falling out with Bill W. over anonymity (and their making peace in Toronto in 1965). (Original reference 1/3 of the way down http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8237. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2012 3:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Norm The Tinman and Laurie Andrews - - - - From: Norm The Tinman normtinman@yahoo.com> Date: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:23 pm Subject: Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark Thanks Jay--glad we got that straightened out--can you tell me where you found it please ? Norm - - - - See earlier post from: Jay Pees racewayjay@gmail.com> Subject: Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 2:17 PM Dr Benjamin Rush, a signer of the American Declaration of Independence, was the first to describe it as a disease. - - - - See earlier post from: normtinman@yahoo.com> (normtinman at yahoo.com) Hey guys, are we sure it was Bill who called Alcoholism a disease -- though reading it was Dr Silkworth first, and Bill had used it at first then stopped along the way. - - - - From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Bill was careful not to describe alcoholism as a disease, see my posting 5689 e.g. Laurie A. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8238. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/27/2012 7:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Kathy Would loved to have talked to this man -- in a lot of ways I can understand why he believes this way -- he has saved a lot of people's lives, by fighting to have that"God as we understood Him" phrase in the B B -- I believe it was he and Hank Parkhurst that were non believers -- many times we hear members with long time sobriety talk about religious things at meetings -- I don't say anything directly to the person, but make sure if it's a discussion meeting, when it's my turn, say a few things about the phrase above and tradition 3 -- we all need time to decide what belief we come to believe -- the book says we came to believe ;/) I'm rambling -- thanks Kathy - - - - Message #8231 from Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Sat Feb 25, 2012 "Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist" by Glenn F. Chesnut http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on the Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his story "The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in his article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in May 1968. - - - - This article is part of the ongoing research on "Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous" at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html (Referenced close to the top of page http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8239. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Appendix II From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2012 6:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Tommy Hickcox, Chuck Parkhurst, and John Steeves - - - - From:Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net) At 10:23 2/26/2012, Joe C/Omyword wrote: >I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is >significant in AA history. Am I right to understand that it was >added in the Second Edition of Alcoholics Anonymous? It was added to the Second Printing of the First Edition, published in March 1941. Do a search of the archives of A.A.H.L. for "Appendix II" and you will find a lot of material on it. Glenn C's recent link to his article on Jim Burwell also has some material on religious vs educational "spiritual awakenings". Tommy H in Danville - - - - From: "Chuck Parkhurst" ineedpage63@cox.net> (ineedpage63 at cox.net) In Appendix II the "conclusion" that is "erroneous" is the conclusion that the "personality changes, or religious experiences" had by our members (to bring about recovery from alcoholism) "must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals." Further on in Appendix II, the authors state these "experiences" (personality changes or religious experiences) can "develop slowly over a period of time." The terms "religious experience" and "educational variety" are not mutually exclusive. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst - - - - From: John Steeves honest03060@yahoo.com> (honest03060 at yahoo.com) Hi, That is one person's interpretation. Another maybe that all recovered alcoholics have spiritual experiences; some sudden and spectacular and others more slowly (or educational) both result in the same change and help the alcoholic to achieve the following: "...awareness of a Power greater than ourselves the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it "God-consciousness." Just another person's interpretation. Read the black not the white as my sponsor always said. SWJ _____________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: Omyword Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 Subject: Re: Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is significant in AA history. Am I right to understand that it was added in the Second Edition of Alcoholics Anonymous? Appendix II makes clear that the idea that recovery from alcoholism is and must be from a God-conscious experience in AA, is erroneous; some of the recoveries were of an educational, not a religious experience. What is the History of this document? Is this penned by Bill W.? It seems to me to be spoken in a voice that differs from the 164 pages. If so, is this Bill's maturation or did someone else draft this document? Any input would be welcome. Joe C _____________________________________________ Referring to message #8231 from Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Sat Feb 25, 2012 "Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist" by Glenn F. Chesnut http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on the Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his story "The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in his article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in May 1968. - - - - This article is part of the ongoing research on "Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous" at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html (Referenced close to the top of page http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8240. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/27/2012 12:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This information is not correct. While Rush was certainly an early proponent of the disease concept it was posited as a "disease" entity before the late 1700s and probably over in Europe first. Can't say for certain who said it first but it was certainly not Rush. Perhaps Jared, Bill White or Ernie could chime in. If I have a chance I'll see if I can pull out Jellinek's book which I think listed some sort of timeline. Regards IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8241. . . . . . . . . . . . Change in Daily Reflections From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2012 10:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My home group reads the entry for the day's date at the beginning of every meeting. I normally follow along on my PDA. Imagine my surprise when the reading wasn't the same? My Daily Reflections is the Fourth Printing, February 1991 and February 29th is the Third Tradition. Current printings have a reading from the Big Book, p. 57. When was this change effected and why? Since the book is published by the conference, I would expect that the change went thru the vetting process. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8242. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Appendix II From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2012 6:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In March 1941, almost two years after the first printing, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the second printing of the Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps." An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was also added. Many members thought they had to have a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill W describes in the chapter "Bill's Story." The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences developed slowly over time and were of the "educational variety." The so-called Spencer quotation (i.e. ". contempt prior to investigation .") was added to Appendix II in the fourth printing of the second edition in 1960. Cheers Arthur - - - - From Glenn C. glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) BIG BOOK QUOTATION IS NOT FROM HERBERT SPENCER but actually from William Paley =========================================== "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Big Book (4th edition) page 568. =========================================== Michael StGeorge, in his classic article "The Survival of a Fitting Quotation," shows that it was actually taken not from Herbert Spencer (1820-1903), but from an earlier author, William Paley (1743-1805). For a copy of StGeorge's article see http://hindsfoot.org/stgeorge.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8243. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/29/2012 12:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From jax760, Art B, and Norm the Tinman - - - - From: "jax760" jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) The following from William White should be given more weight than many of articles, essays, etc found on the internet that identify Trotter and Rush as the "originators" of the disease concept. "The conceptualization of chronic drunkenness as a disease did not originate in America. References to chronic drunkenness as a sickness of the body and soul, and the presence of specialized roles to care for people suffering from "drink madness," can be found in the civilizations of ancient Egypt and Greece. Isolated and periodic references to chronic drunkenness as a disease, and even occasional calls for state-sponsored treatment, continued through the centuries before the first European migrations to America." White, W. (2000) Addiction as a Disease: Birth of a Concept. Counselor, 1(1):46-51, 73. By the way, the four articles written by White in 2000 are a must read for any AA Historian or those who wish to understand "alcoholism" and the "disease concept" better. God Bless, John - - - - From: "Art B" artb@netwiz.net> (artb at netwiz.net) Dear Norm, The book "Slaying the Dragon," by William L. White, describes the efforts by Benjamin Rush to describe how to be cured of alcoholism. His suggestion was to not take the first drink. Sincerely, Art Boudreault - - - - From: Norm The Tinman normtinman@yahoo.com> (normtinman at yahoo.com) Hi Guys Guess the statement I put on here was questioning was this newspaper article correct saying Bill was first to use term disease -- I knew he wasn't, but wanted some input from others also before saying so -- thanks all Norm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8244. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2012 6:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Arthur S. and Laurence Holbrook - - - - From: Arthur S arthur.s@live.com> (arthur.s at live.com) The first American physician to call alcoholism a disease was Dr Benjamin Rush. He was a member of the Continental Congress, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and Surgeon General of the Army during the American Revolution. He is often called both the father of American psychiatry and father of the American temperance movement. In 1784, Rush wrote a paper titled "An Enquiry into the Effects of Ardent Spirits on the Human Body and Mind." He described habitual drunkenness as "a progressive and odious disease" and that total abstinence "suddenly and entirely" was the only effective treatment. In 1810 Rush also called for the creation of what he called "sober houses" where alcoholics could be confined and rehabilitated. This was the forerunner of Treatment Centers. It's a bit ironic that Dr Bob, during some of the worst years of his drinking, received his medical degree from Rush University which was named in honor of Dr Benjamin Rush, a pioneer in the treatment of alcoholism. Cheers Arthur ******************************************* From: "Laurence Holbrook" email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) http://books.google.com/books?id=-6UoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=Inquiry+ into+the\ +Effects+of+Ardent+Spirits+upon+the+Human+Bo dy+and+Mind&source=bl&ots=neE4ikAVwJ\ &sig=qWzSLX3XCiqJNol20omtRZLlPvQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rFRNT6OEM4nlsQL_7aEh&ved=0CCo Q6AE\ wAQ#v=onepage&q=disease&f=false [13] By BENJAMIN RUSH Professor of medicine in the University of Pennsylvania [published in 1823] "An inquiry into the effects of ardent spirits upon the human body and mind ..." [p 5] By ardent spirits, i mean those liquors only which are obtained by distillation from fermented substances of any kind. to their effects upon the bodies and minds of men, the following inquiry shall be exclusively confined. Fermented liquors contain so little spirit, and that so intimately combined with other matters, that they can seldom be drunken in sufficient quantities to produce intoxication, and it's subsequent effects, without exciting a disrelish to their taste, or pain, from their distending the stomach. They are, moreover, when taken in a moderate quantity, generally innocent, and often have a friendly influence upon health and life. The effects of ardent spirits divide themselves into such as are of a prompt, and such as are of a chronic nature. The former discover themselves in drunkenness; and the latter, in a numerous train of diseases and vices of the body and mind. I. I shall begin by briefly describing their prompt, or immediate effects, in a fit of drunkenness. This odious disease (for by that name it should be called) appears with more or less of the following symptoms, and most commonly in the order in which I shall enumerate them. 1. Unusual garrulity. 2. Unusual silence. 3. Captiousness, and a disposition to quarrel. 4. Uncommon good humor, and an insipid simpering, or laugh. 5. Profane swearing, and cursing. 7. A disclosure of their own, or other people's secrets. 8. A rude disposition to tell those persons in company whom they know, their faults. 9. Certain immodest actions. I am sorry to say, this sign of the first stage of drunkenness, sometimes appears in women, who, when sober, are uniformly remarkable for chaste and decent manners. 10. A clipping of words. 11. Fighting; a black eye, or a swelled nose, often mark this grade of drunkenness. 12. Certain extravagant acts which indicate a temporary fit of madness. These are singing, hallooing, roaring, imitating the noises of brute animals, jumping, tearing off clothes, dancing naked, breaking glasses and china, and dashing other articles of household furniture upon the ground or floor. After a while the paroxysm of drunkenness is completely formed. The face now becomes flushed, the eyes project, and are somewhat watery, winking is less frequent than in natural; the under lip is protruded -- the head inclines a little to one shoulder -- the jaw falls -- belchings and hiccup take place -- the limbs totter -- the whole body staggers: -- The unfortunate subject of this history next falls on his seat, -- he looks around him with a vacant countenance, and mutters inarticulate sounds to himself -- he attempts to rise and walk. In this attempt, he falls upon his side, from which he gradually turns upon his back. He now closes his eyes, and falls into a profound sleep, frequently attended with snoring, and profuse sweats, and sometimes with such a relaxation of the muscles which confine the bladder and the lower bowels, as to produce a symptom which delicacy forbids me to mention. In this condition, he often lies from ten, twelve, and twenty-four hours, to two, three, four, and five days, an object of pity and disgust to his family and friends. His recovery from this fit of intoxication, is marked with several peculiar appearances. He opens his eyes, and closes them again -- he gapes and stretches his limbs -- he then coughs and pukes -- his voice is hoarse -- he rises with difficulty, and staggers to a chair; his eyes resemble balls of fire -- his hands tremble -- he loathes the sight of food -- he calls for a glass of spirits to compose his stomach -- now and then he emits a deep-fetched sigh, or groan, from a transient twinge of conscience, but he more frequently scolds, and curses every thing around him. In this state of languor and stupidity, he remains for two or three days, before he is able to resume his former habits of business and conversation .... [p 8] Let us next attend to the chronic effects of ardent spirits upon the body and mind, in the body, they dispose to every form of acute disease; they moreover, excite fevers in persons predisposed to them, from other causes. This has been remarked in all the yellow fevers which have visited the cities of the United States. Hard drinkers seldom escape, and rarely recover from them. The following diseases are the usual consequences of the habitual use of ardent spirits, viz. 1. A decay of appetite, sickness at stomach, and a puking of bile, or a discharge of a frothy and viscid phlegm by hawking, in the morning. 2. Obstructions of the liver. The fable of Prometheus, on whose liver a vulture was said to prey constantly, as a punishment for his stealing fire from heaven, was intended to illustrate the painful effects of ardent spirits upon that organ or the body. [continues with 7 more chronic effects] Larry Holbrook (410) 802-3099 Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8245. . . . . . . . . . . . An approach to alcoholism in the military service From: Roger Wheatley . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2012 4:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: ROGER WHEATLEY chief_roger@yahoo.com> (chief_roger at yahoo.com) I have been unable to find a copy of the article written about the Lackland treatment results: Louis Jolyon West and William H [sic] Swegan, An approach to alcoholism in the military service. American Journal of Psychiatry 1956; 112, 1104-1009) - - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: After the first edition of Bill Swegan's book came out in 2003, I packed away all my research notes from this project, including my copy of this journal article, which was an official offprint from the publisher from back at the time when it was originally published. (I had gone through the document sentence by sentence and word by word, back at that time). It's somewhere in a stack of boxes down in my basement, I think, but it would take days to find it. It can be downloaded online, but it seems to cost about $35 to download it: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=146086 Does anybody in the AAHistoryLovers have a copy of the article easily available? Or know how people could obtain a copy without it costing an arm and a leg? Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8246. . . . . . . . . . . . Mark Whalon a murderer? From: EdgarC . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2012 8:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In his book, Rural Free Delivery, Mark Whalon, childhood pal of Bill Wilson, tells of shooting a woman identified only as Jeanne who Whalon says stalked him on his postal delivery route. Whalon on page 123 of the first edition of the book also tells of burying her " 'long side of my four regular wives and some mail-order ones" in the family burying plot "beneath the sour apple tree." I find little on Whalon beside a swell Life magazine feature from the '40s, and nothing about serial killings. Was Whalon adding spice to his story, or is there some truth to it? Edgar C, Sarasota FL IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8247. . . . . . . . . . . . 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? From: rickcard47 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2012 12:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have what I believe are 2 of the 2nd edition, 1st printings. But they are not the same. One of them is a bit thicker than the other, and has the "Spencer" quote in Appendix II,the other does not have the Spencer quote in appendix II. Arthur's message #8242 said the Spencer quote wasn't added until the 4th printing of the 2nd edition. Is it possible that some early 2nd editions came out without the printing number? Thanks in advance Rick IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8248. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? From: cometkazie1@cox.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2012 2:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE SPENCER/PALEY QUOTE WAS ADDED TO APPENDIX II IN THE THIRD PRINTING of the 2nd edition, not the fourth printing =============================== On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:12 PM, rickcard47 wrote: > I have what I believe are 2 of the 2nd edition, 1st printings. But > they are not the same. One of them is a bit thicker than the other, > and has the "Spencer" quote in Appendix II,the other does not have the > Spencer quote in appendix II. > Arthur's message #8242 said the Spencer quote wasn't added until the > 4th printing of the 2nd edition. > Is it possible that some early 2nd editions came out without the > printing number? =============================== None of the first three printings of the Second Edition have the printing number in the front. The First and Second don't have the quote attributed to Herbert Spencer, while the Third does. The First Printing has the word "really" spelled "realy" on p. xx at the front of the sixth printed line. The Second Printing and subsequent have the word "really" spelled correctly. The Third Printing has "Other Publications" listed opposite the full title page as well as the alleged Spencer quote. My first four printings are all about the same size. I suspect you have a First or a Second and a Third. A quick check of the spelling of "really" on p. xx will tell. Thanks for getting me off my duff and checking my books. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8249. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Mark Whalon a murderer? From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2012 12:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Les Cole and jax760 - - - - LES COLE elsietwo@msn.com> (elsietwo at msn.com) March 3, 2012 Hello Edgar: I am very intrigued by your post. When I was writing my new book about Rogers Burnham (see www.LesCole-AA.com) I searched for information about Mark and after difficulty found a copy of "Rural Free Delivery" at the University of Vermont Library. They sent it to me as a loan and I found his poem "Lem's plan" very interesting concerning the Vermont culture. I do not recall reading what you quote below. Can you tell us where you got your book, and if it can become available somewhere? I knew Mark when I was a child and lived with Rog Burnham in the Burnham Camp on Emerald Lake (1933). Mark was our mailman and I saw him often when he delivered our mail to the RFD mailbox. I can't believe he would be, or write about, being a murderer! Susan Cheever wrote a chapter about Mark in her book My Name Is Bill. Have you seen that? Lois wrote several things about Mark in her diaries. I read some of these when I studied the archives at Stepping Stones in 2009, and I quote some of these in my book. There is a picture of Mark and Charlie Richie hanging on the wall in Bill's study on the hill at SS. (Charlie was the Burnhamcare-taker of the Burnham properties in Vermont). I'll tell you a story about Charlie and my father if you write to me on my personal e-mail, elsietwo@msn.com . Thanks very much for your post. Les ColeColorado Springs, CO - - - - From: "jax760" jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) BTW, "Mark" Whalon is really John Mark Whalon. Mark was his middle name according to Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson House. John Mark Whalon is buried in a cemetery on the mountain, northeast of the Wilson House. John B. - - - - FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: ????? Was there more than one author named Mark Whalon ????? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Whalon says that his name was Mark A., not John Mark: "Mark A Whalon (1886–1956) was an Irish-American author. Whalon was close friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and said to be a close influence on Wilson in his later life." - - - - Original message from: edgarc@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 Subject: Mark Whalon a murderer? In his book, Rural Free Delivery, Mark Whalon, childhood pal of Bill Wilson, tells of shooting a woman identified only as Jeanne who Whalon says stalked him on his postal delivery route. Whalon on page 123 of the first edition of the book also tells of burying her " 'long side of my four regular wives and some mail-order ones" in the family burying plot "beneath the sour apple tree." Edgar C, Sarasota FL IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8250. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Appendix II From: MichaelD . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2012 11:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Arthur S wrote: > > An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was > also added. Many members thought they had to > have a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience > similar to the one Bill W describes in the > chapter "Bill's Story." The appendix emphasized > that most spiritual experiences developed > slowly over time and were of the "educational > variety." The Appendix did offer a guide for some form of time expectation, however, when it says " what often takes place in a period of a few months, is more than what can be accomplished with years of self discipline." So it does note that, although the required spiritual awakening does not have to be sudden, some results should be seen within a few months. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8251. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: a man convinced against his will From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2012 3:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII RE: Origin of an AA quote: a man convinced against his will Cf: The Artist's Concept, Big Book first edition, now included in "Experience, Strength and Hope", page 130): "... all that this study and research ever did for me was to show something about why I drank. It substantiated a fact that I had known all along, that my drinking was symptomatic. It did point out a road to better mental health but it demanded something of me in return that I did not have to give. It asked of me a power of self-will but it did not take into consideration that this self-will was already drugged with poison - that I was very sick. Intuitively I always knew that a person constrained to temperance by the domination of the will is no more cured of his vice than if he were locked up in prison. I knew that somehow, some way, the mental stream, the emotions, must be purified before the right pathway could be followed." BTW the chapter is headed with the quotation attributed to Herbert Spencer which was later reprinted at the end of the Spiritual appendix in the Big Book. - - - - From: _Baileygc23@... Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 Subject: Origin of an AA quote: a man convinced against his will Schopenhauer (in his essays) says "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still," and refers these words to a work by Samuel Butler called Hudibras. Here is Cliff Notes on the subject. The origin of this old adage appears to go back a long time. So long, in fact, that no one is really sure where it originally came from. It also appears in many different forms in many different places. Mary Wollstonecraft (1759-1797), the famous British writer and feminist (and mother to the author of Frankenstein), included the quotation "Convince a man against his will, He's of the same opinion still" in the notes to Chapter 5 of her 1792 treatise, "A Vindication of the Rights of Woman." This adage is placed in quotes, denoting that it wasn't original text, but without reference to the source. So either she didn't know the origin of this saying or she assumed that it was so popularly known that citing the source was unnecessary. She might, however, have misquoted two lines from Samuel Butler's (1612-1680) enormous 17th-century poem Hudibras. Part III, Canto iii, lines 547-550 read thus: He that complies against his will Is of his own opinion still Which he may adhere to, yet disown, For reasons to himself best known Butler might have penned an original thought here, or he might have been borrowing what was already an old saying even in his time. We'll probably never know. Read more: http://www.cliffsnotes.com/Section/Who-wrote-A-man-convinced-against-his-wil l-is\ -of-the-same-opinion-still-.id-305408,articleId-41563.html#ixzz16oBzvOas [14] ( http://www.cliffsnotes.com/Section/Who-wrote- A-man-convinced-against-his-will-is-of-the-same-opinion-still-. id-305408,articleId-41563.html#ixzz16oBzvOas ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8252. . . . . . . . . . . . Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 From: joe . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2012 6:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill Swegan has a fascinating AA story. He had great opportunities to uniquely experience early AA. I found in the context of military history, that there is more to the story. Ernest Kurtz wrote in Not-God regarding the American historical context when AA itself began and grew, "By an almost too happy historical coincidence, the self defined seed of Alcoholics Anonymous – Ebby's visit to Clinton Street home of the then drinking Bill Wilson – was planted in November 1934." (p.180) Ernie goes on to lay out the historical context of the United States regarding religion, temperance, social, medical and psychological thought in America at that time. AA probably could not have developed as it did any other time or place in history. Bill Swegan got sober at Mitchel AFB on July 5, 1948. The base had just been designated the location for a newly formed Air Defense Command in March 1946. The Air Force became a separate service in 1947 and the field became Mitchel Air Force Base, just before Bill Swegan took his last drink. By 1949, Mitchel was relieved of the responsibility for defending New York City because of the many problems associated with operating tactical aircraft in the urban area. After assuming a reserve mission, public pressure ultimately led to the field's closure in June 1961 when the property was turned over to Nassau County for redevelopment. The location, Long Island, and the timing allowed Bill Swegan to meet Marty Mann who would take an interest in him and his enthusiastic 12th step work. The concurrent USAF history meant that there was a major Air Force Command on Mitchel AFB from 1946-1949 when Bill was assigned there. With such a command comes the brass to run it and the need for base operations support, such as senior chaplains. If Bill Swegan were to have sobered up any other time, his chance to serve as a Chaplain's Assistant, made possible by the influence of Marty Mann, would not have been possible. His sobriety, his speech to his unit, his meeting Marty Mann through Yev Gardner, all occurred in the small window from 1948-1949 when there would be a senior chaplain assigned to the Air Defense Command at Mitchel AFB. Bill Swegan was not the only service member getting sober at the time. Several others in the military found sobriety in the 1940's, many are recorded in the Digital Archives of Grapevine and local AA archives. The difference in his story is that he got the opportunity to attend the Yale School of Alcohol Studies, work with Sister Ignatia, and participate in the first recorded alcoholism treatment pilot attempted by the military. Had the timing of several factors been different, he may not have had such an experience or helped all of those he touched. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8253. . . . . . . . . . . . Boston Newspaper From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2012 5:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Members Does anyone know if the "historic fact" below is accurate? March 7, 1941 -- Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted to get well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury St., at 8 PM In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8254. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Change in Daily Reflections From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2012 7:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The change came with the 5th printing of Daily Reflections. I'm not sure why I was doing it, but I was checking the 29th, (as it is my wedding anniversary) and out of the blue, the reading was different. Doug B. www.aahistory.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8255. . . . . . . . . . . . Help with AA research papers? From: Soberholic . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/5/2012 4:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings from Finland, A Finnish AA friend of mine is working on his dissertation concerning AA. Last time I saw him he asked for help. He is in desperate need of finding more contemporary research papers on AA. I'd be happy to help him but I cannot do it without help from my fellow members in AAHL. Links and references would be appreciated. Yours Truly, Soberholic e-mail address soberholic@yahoo.com> (soberholic at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8256. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2012 4:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey Joe, thanks for the words--like the rest of our fellowship, timing seems to have been just precisely right for most of it -- I like the word synchronicity, that's been used before ;/) There has been a lot of coincidences over the years also -- Norm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8257. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Help with AA research papers? From: J.BARRY Murtaugh . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2012 5:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are several sources who check in with this group. Hope they can help. I subscribe to updates from: *Alcohol and Drugs History Society* which you can find by any search engine. http://alcoholanddrugshistorysociety.wordpress.com but it may not be exactly what you are looking for.... bear IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8258. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2012 11:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings, It is interesting to read about the alcohol treatment program in the States. After the Hughes Act of Congress, and Dr.Jack Norris's visits to Germany 1970, treatment centers were set up in Germany, the first being in Bad Cannstadt near Stuttgart. I believe Marty Mann was very influential in getting the alcohol treatment centers on US Army and Air Force Bases in Germany started. Until then , the AA meetings on the Bases were held in the Chaplain's office or the Doctor's office. Is there anything written about this to read and if so where can I read it? Dolores ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn Chesnut To: AAHistoryLovers group Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 8:56 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model Chapter 16. Twelfth Stepping the Military http://hindsfoot.org/help16.pdf Chapter 17. Alcoholics with Gold Braid http://hindsfoot.org/help17.pdf (Taken from Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism (2003) http://hindsfoot.org/kno1.html ) The Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment was first developed at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953-1961 by William E. Swegan and psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon ("Jolly") West. In Chapter 16, Nancy Olson describes the further development of this type of AA-related alcoholism treatment program by psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Zuska and Navy Commander Dick Jewell at the Long Beach Naval Station in California in the years 1965 and following. (Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and provided the link between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach Navy program.) Dr. Zuska, although not an alcoholic himself, was beloved at a deep personal level by several generations of AA people in that part of California because of all he had done to help alcoholics -- hundreds and hundreds of them owed their lives to him, and they knew it. Betty Ford, wife of U.S. President Ford, was sent to the Long Beach treatment program to get sober, and U.S. President Jimmy Carter's brother Billy Carter was also sent there because of its outstanding record in getting alcoholics sober. Then Nancy goes on in Chapter 17 to describe the hearings before the U.S. Senate subcommittee on alcoholism and drug abuse in the U.S. military in 1970. Also more on Joe Zuska and the Navy alcoholism treatment program which he developed at Long Beach. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8259. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Help with AA research papers? From: crog1@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2012 11:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From a research standpoint you may have tried this one: ========================================== (1) National Library of Medicine - National Institutes of Health http://www.nlm.nih.gov/ If not, they have a very good online help and could help refer you to even more stuff that would be at least AA related. ========================================== (2) Nat't Inst of Mental Health would be another possible resource: NIMH · Home http://www.nimh.nih.gov/index.shtml ========================================== (3) Another: Home | National Institute on Drug Abuse http://www.drugabuse.gov/ ========================================== (4) And finally: National Inst on Alcohol Abuse & Alcoholism NIAAA Home http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/Pages/default.aspx These last two appear will be merged into a National Institute on Substance abuse et al in the near future. Again, these you may have been in contact with. If not they certainly might lend themselves to helping you with your AA research paper. Of course there is always AA New York's HQ. Good luck.... ****************************************** From Glenn C. and murtaughjbarry, also see: (5) POINTS: THE BLOG OF THE ALCOHOL AND DRUGS HISTORY SOCIETY From Glenn C. glennccc@sbcglobal.net http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ ****************************************** (6) ALCOHOL AND DRUGS HISTORY SOCIETY In a message dated 3/7/2012 8:36:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com writes: I subscribe to updates from: http://alcoholanddrugshistorysociety.wordpress.com/ ****************************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8260. . . . . . . . . . . . Thoughts on Bill Swegan #2 From: Roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2012 6:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The timing of Bill Swegan's assignment as Chaplain's Assistant also fit into a small window of Air Force history that probably could not have happened any other time or place. In 1947, Harry Truman signed the National Security Act separating the Army and Air Forces. At first, Army chaplains and assistants continued to serve the new Service and both opposed a separate chaplaincy. As the Air Force matured, in August 1948, the first USAF Chief of Chaplains, Charles Carpenter convinced General Spaatz who ordered the institution of a separate AF chaplaincy on May 10, 1949. Chaplain Carpenter also believed service members assigned as chaplain assistants were seen as basically clerk-typists and pushed for a defined career field for them. He persuaded AF leaders to establish a specific Service Specialty Number (SSN) for chaplain assistants. It was because of his efforts, in March 1949, Headquarters USAF directed that those enlisted men that were Personal Affairs Consultants and Chaplain Assistants be screened and, if qualified, reclassified as Welfare Specialist (SSN 534). (Source: History of the United States Air Force Chaplain Assistant by James R Patten, CMSgt, USAF (Retired)) This piece of Air Force history intersects coincidentally with Bill Swegan and Mary Mann. The Air Force was developing their new identity as its own service and working to define the roles and responsibilities of, among other specialties, the Chaplain's Assistant. This provided the perfect timing to allow Marty Mann to use her connections to get Bill Swegan assigned full time to the Chaplain's Assistant position in 1948-49. The local command at Mitchel AFB were probably open to this experiment based on several factors: Marty's persuasion, Bill's enthusiasm for AA and his working with others, and the hopes of helping known cases of alcoholism. However a key factor that must be considered is that the role of the Chaplain's Assistant in the new Air Force was loosely defined and the opportunity to assign one enlisted man to the position was a low risk. At worst, he could be no value added to the position and make no positive impact on alcoholism on the base. At best, he could achieve results and assist the Chaplain in administrative, religious, and moral programs. The latter seems to be closer to what happened. He obviously served his Chaplain well because he later bent the rules and convinced the command to award him a grant from a Morale, Welfare, and Recreation account for expenses to attend the Yale Summer program on alcohol studies. The timing here of the Air Force chaplain's assistant history and Bill Swegan's career are "an almost too happy historical coincidence." Good thing that Bill Swegan sobered up at the time and place that he did. But then, isn't that true of all of us. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8261. . . . . . . . . . . . AA research help From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/9/2012 6:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As a librarian let me get a plug in for my profession and suggest that for research help the fellow in Finland go to a library :-) Most libraries are open to the public, and librarians tend to be oriented towards helping people. Charlie Cowling Clarkson, New York "Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at a distance but to do what lies clearly at hand." Thomas Carlyle IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8262. . . . . . . . . . . . Thoughts on Bill Swegan #3 From: Roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2012 9:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have not yet acquired a copy of the 1956 American Journal of Psychiatry article to learn more about what Dr. West wrote about the Lackland pilot program (if you have it, please email). However, I have some theories worthy of further exploration in the context of military history. While I cannot dispute any claims of success the program had I cannot find any indication that the Lackland treatment program was more than a pilot program that did not continue. My theory is that even if the program had convinced defense budget decision makers that it had value, other national strategic interests took priority. According to United States budget records, due to the spike in defense spending during World War II, defense spending rose to 42% of GDP in 1945. Following the war, it decreased rapidly to a low of 7.33% of GDP in 1948, then doubling to 15% at the height of the Korean War in 1953. According to a RAND study the U.S. Air Force purchased more aircraft in the five year time block from 1952-56 than it has from 1957 to the present day. So my theory, based on personal experience with the Defense Department for over 23 years and the research above, is that USAF spending priorities required a focus on aircraft procurement and operations in Korea. Alcoholism treatment was not the priority for resources. It has been my experience that the Defense Department has been a follower of the larger society when it comes to treating alcoholism or addiction. Military residential treatment followed private sector hospital models, and likewise have been predominantly transformed to inpatient programs in most areas. One constant based on my observation and those I have worked with in Europe, Hawaii, and the Continental United States – the patient's likelihood of success seems directly proportional to the availability of a strong AA group at or near their base following discharge. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8263. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/11/2012 9:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Roy, Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by yourself)... Preface & Forewords 1 - 4: 1) Words - 3,021 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938 4) Paragraphs - 56 The Doctor's Opinion: 1) 2,143 2) 10,313 3) 12,438 4) 53 Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes): 1) 46,189 2) 209,361 3) 255,359 4) 759 Just Love, Barefoot Bill -----Original Message----- From: notify@yahoogroups.com [mailto:notify@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of royslev Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM To: Bill L. Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book? I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words there are in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title page and table of contents until Vision For You? If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know what the results are? Regards Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78 royslev@verizon.net (home email) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8264. . . . . . . . . . . . Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/12/2012 1:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Would anyone happen to have access to or a copy of this essay by Alexis Carrel? I believe it was published in the Readers Digest circa 1938/39 Thanks John B MY E-MAIL: jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8265. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2012 7:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For the top words over 1000: THE 1705 TO 1580 OF 1313 WE 1129 A 1094 AND 1046 GOD 120 ALCOHOHOLICS 1 ALCOHOL 42 ALCOHOLIC 176 ALCOHOLIC* 1 ALCOHOLICS 96 ALCOHOLIC'S 3 ALCOHOLICS' 1 ALCOHOLISM 52 This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces, period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several different iterations. I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages and Doctors Opinion for these counts. Jim On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote: > > Roy, > Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title > page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by > yourself)... > > Preface & Forewords 1 - 4: > 1) Words - 3,021 > 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931 > 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938 > 4) Paragraphs - 56 > > The Doctor's Opinion: > 1) 2,143 > 2) 10,313 > 3) 12,438 > 4) 53 > > Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes): > 1) 46,189 > 2) 209,361 > 3) 255,359 > 4) 759 > > Just Love, > Barefoot Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: notify@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:notify@yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of > royslev > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM > To: Bill L. > Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages > > Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word > count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book? > > I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a > new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but > e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words > there are > in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title > page and table of contents until Vision For You? > > If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know > what the > results are? > > Regards > Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78 > royslev@verizon.net (home email) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8266. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2012 6:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I’ll eventually get a handle on this “cut and paste” thing down. Seems like a lot of God talk in Bill’s Story, We Agnostics, How it Works and Into Action. Word/Phrase Total Preface Foreword 1 Foreword 2 Foreword 3 Foreword 4 Doctors Opinion Bill's Story There is a Solution More About Alcoholism We Agnostics How it Works Into Action Working with Others To Wives The Family Afterward To Employers A Vision for You God 114 2 11 5 22 22 18 8 8 8 10 All Powerful Creator 1 1 All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence 1 1 Bridge of Reason 1 1 Broad Highway 1 1 Christ 1 1 Creation 1 1 Creative Intelligence 2 1 1 Creator 10 1 2 1 1 5 Czar of the Heavens 1 1 Director 1 1 Employer 1 1 Father 1 1 Father of Light 1 1 Fellowship of the Spirit 1 1 God as we understood Him 3 3 God of Reason 1 1 Great Fact 1 1 Great Reality 2 1 1 He 15 3 1 3 7 1 Higher Power 1 1 Him 21 4 4 8 2 3 His 9 3 5 1 Maker 1 1 New Land 1 1 New-found Friend 1 1 One who has all power 1 1 our Maker, as we understood Him 1 1 Power 4 4 Power greater than **self 14 2 10 1 1 Presence and Power of God 1 1 Presence of God 2 2 Presence of Infinite Power and Love 1 1 Principal 1 1 Realm of Spirit 1 1 Reason 2 2 Road of Happy Destiny 1 1 Spirit 1 1 Spirit of Nature 1 1 Spirit of the Universe 4 1 2 1 Supreme Being 2 2 Thee 2 1 1 Thou 1 1 Thy 4 2 2 Thy Love 1 1 Thy Power 1 1 Thy Way 1 1 Universal Mind 1 1 Total 242 0 0 2 0 0 0 32 8 1 63 60 32 9 8 8 0 19 From: roweke@msn.com Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:23 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages God gets a bigger billing if you consider variants: Higher Power 1 Him 21 His 9 Maker 1 New Land 1 New-found Friend 1 One who has all power 1 our Maker, as we understood Him 1 Power 4 Power greater than **self 14 Presence and Power of God 1 Presence of God 2 Presence of Infinite Power and Love 1 Principal 1 Realm of Spirit 1 Reason 2 Road of Happy Destiny 1 Spirit 1 Spirit of Nature 1 Spirit of the Universe 4 Supreme Being 2 Thee 2 Thou 1 Thy 4 Thy Love 1 Thy Power 1 Thy Way 1 Universal Mind 1 Total 242 Note: words like Power, or Reason when in the middle of a sentence and upper case do not refer to power or reason. From: James Bliss Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages For the top words over 1000: THE 1705 TO 1580 OF 1313 WE 1129 A 1094 AND 1046 GOD 120 ALCOHOHOLICS 1 ALCOHOL 42 ALCOHOLIC 176 ALCOHOLIC* 1 ALCOHOLICS 96 ALCOHOLIC'S 3 ALCOHOLICS' 1 ALCOHOLISM 52 This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces, period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several different iterations. I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages and Doctors Opinion for these counts. Jim On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote: > > Roy, > Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title > page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by > yourself)... > > Preface & Forewords 1 - 4: > 1) Words - 3,021 > 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931 > 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938 > 4) Paragraphs - 56 > > The Doctor's Opinion: > 1) 2,143 > 2) 10,313 > 3) 12,438 > 4) 53 > > Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes): > 1) 46,189 > 2) 209,361 > 3) 255,359 > 4) 759 > > Just Love, > Barefoot Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com > [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of > royslev > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM > To: Bill L. > Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages > > Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word > count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book? > > I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a > new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but > e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words > there are > in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title > page and table of contents until Vision For You? > > If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know > what the > results are? > > Regards > Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78 > mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8267. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2012 6:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII oops, forgot to include the total line for ALCOHOLISM: Alcoholism Alcoholism 56 Alcoholism Afflicted 4 Alcoholism Allergy 3 Alcoholism Craves 1 Alcoholism Craving 8 Alcoholism Disease 1 Alcoholism Ill 11 Alcoholism Illness 12 Alcoholism Insane 7 Alcoholism Insanity 8 Alcoholism Malady 5 Alcoholism Obsession 3 Alcoholism Sick 27 Alcoholism Suffer 10 Alcoholism Suffering 10 Alcoholism Total 166 From: roweke@msn.com Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:28 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Variations of ALCOHOLISM (Preface to 164): Alcoholism Alcoholism 56 Alcoholism Afflicted 4 Alcoholism Allergy 3 Alcoholism Craves 1 Alcoholism Craving 8 Alcoholism Disease 1 Alcoholism Ill 11 Alcoholism Illness 12 Alcoholism Insane 7 Alcoholism Insanity 8 Alcoholism Malady 5 Alcoholism Obsession 3 Alcoholism Sick 27 Alcoholism Suffer 10 Alcoholism Suffering 10 From: James Bliss Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages For the top words over 1000: THE 1705 TO 1580 OF 1313 WE 1129 A 1094 AND 1046 GOD 120 ALCOHOHOLICS 1 ALCOHOL 42 ALCOHOLIC 176 ALCOHOLIC* 1 ALCOHOLICS 96 ALCOHOLIC'S 3 ALCOHOLICS' 1 ALCOHOLISM 52 This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces, period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several different iterations. I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages and Doctors Opinion for these counts. Jim On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote: > > Roy, > Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title > page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by > yourself)... > > Preface & Forewords 1 - 4: > 1) Words - 3,021 > 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931 > 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938 > 4) Paragraphs - 56 > > The Doctor's Opinion: > 1) 2,143 > 2) 10,313 > 3) 12,438 > 4) 53 > > Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes): > 1) 46,189 > 2) 209,361 > 3) 255,359 > 4) 759 > > Just Love, > Barefoot Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com > [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of > royslev > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM > To: Bill L. > Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages > > Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word > count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book? > > I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a > new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but > e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words > there are > in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title > page and table of contents until Vision For You? > > If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know > what the > results are? > > Regards > Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78 > mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8268. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages From: Stephen Gentile . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2012 4:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Time to reprogram. I find the word God 138 times in the fourth edition 133 times in the second This is through the simple search button in my .PDF viewer. Steve G NJ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8269. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2012 6:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Variations of ALCOHOLISM (Preface to 164): Alcoholism Alcoholism 56 Alcoholism Afflicted 4 Alcoholism Allergy 3 Alcoholism Craves 1 Alcoholism Craving 8 Alcoholism Disease 1 Alcoholism Ill 11 Alcoholism Illness 12 Alcoholism Insane 7 Alcoholism Insanity 8 Alcoholism Malady 5 Alcoholism Obsession 3 Alcoholism Sick 27 Alcoholism Suffer 10 Alcoholism Suffering 10 From: James Bliss Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages For the top words over 1000: THE 1705 TO 1580 OF 1313 WE 1129 A 1094 AND 1046 GOD 120 ALCOHOHOLICS 1 ALCOHOL 42 ALCOHOLIC 176 ALCOHOLIC* 1 ALCOHOLICS 96 ALCOHOLIC'S 3 ALCOHOLICS' 1 ALCOHOLISM 52 This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces, period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several different iterations. I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages and Doctors Opinion for these counts. Jim On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote: > > Roy, > Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title > page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by > yourself)... > > Preface & Forewords 1 - 4: > 1) Words - 3,021 > 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931 > 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938 > 4) Paragraphs - 56 > > The Doctor's Opinion: > 1) 2,143 > 2) 10,313 > 3) 12,438 > 4) 53 > > Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes): > 1) 46,189 > 2) 209,361 > 3) 255,359 > 4) 759 > > Just Love, > Barefoot Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com > [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of > royslev > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM > To: Bill L. > Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages > > Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word > count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book? > > I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a > new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but > e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words > there are > in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title > page and table of contents until Vision For You? > > If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know > what the > results are? > > Regards > Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78 > mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8270. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2012 6:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII God gets a bigger billing if you consider variants: Higher Power 1 Him 21 His 9 Maker 1 New Land 1 New-found Friend 1 One who has all power 1 our Maker, as we understood Him 1 Power 4 Power greater than **self 14 Presence and Power of God 1 Presence of God 2 Presence of Infinite Power and Love 1 Principal 1 Realm of Spirit 1 Reason 2 Road of Happy Destiny 1 Spirit 1 Spirit of Nature 1 Spirit of the Universe 4 Supreme Being 2 Thee 2 Thou 1 Thy 4 Thy Love 1 Thy Power 1 Thy Way 1 Universal Mind 1 Total 242 Note: words like Power, or Reason when in the middle of a sentence and upper case do not refer to power or reason. From: James Bliss Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages For the top words over 1000: THE 1705 TO 1580 OF 1313 WE 1129 A 1094 AND 1046 GOD 120 ALCOHOHOLICS 1 ALCOHOL 42 ALCOHOLIC 176 ALCOHOLIC* 1 ALCOHOLICS 96 ALCOHOLIC'S 3 ALCOHOLICS' 1 ALCOHOLISM 52 This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces, period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several different iterations. I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages and Doctors Opinion for these counts. Jim On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote: > > Roy, > Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title > page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by > yourself)... > > Preface & Forewords 1 - 4: > 1) Words - 3,021 > 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931 > 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938 > 4) Paragraphs - 56 > > The Doctor's Opinion: > 1) 2,143 > 2) 10,313 > 3) 12,438 > 4) 53 > > Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes): > 1) 46,189 > 2) 209,361 > 3) 255,359 > 4) 759 > > Just Love, > Barefoot Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com > [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On > Behalf Of > royslev > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM > To: Bill L. > Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages > > Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word > count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book? > > I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a > new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but > e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words > there are > in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title > page and table of contents until Vision For You? > > If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know > what the > results are? > > Regards > Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78 > mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8271. . . . . . . . . . . . hundred vs. thousand(s) From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2012 12:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A question was raised by a friend of mine recently and really made me pause for thought... Were there one hundred or thousand(s)? My question comes from passages located in the Big Book itself. One Hundred? It was now time, the struggling groups thought, to place their message and unique experience before the world. This determination bore fruit in the spring of 1939 by the publication of this vo...lume. The membership had then reached about 100 men and women. –Forward to the 2nd Edition "Then they outlined the spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred of them had followed successfully. BB p.42, More About Alcoholism This man and over one hundred others appear to have recovered. BB xxv(xxiii), The Doctor's Opinion We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. BB xiii, Foreword to First Edition Or One Thousand? In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our families. BB p.15, Bill's Story We of Alcoholics Anonymous, know thousands of men and women who were once just as hopeless as Bill. Nearly all have recovered. They have solved the drink problem. BB p.17, There is a Solution All of these passages come from the book as it appeared at the beginning, so changes in membership numbers should not be reflected, unless there is an historical twist I am not aware of. I know in the end there is some talk about "one hundred" being an approximation, but I am somewhat confused by the appearance of hundred and thousand. Any thoughts? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8272. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2012 1:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Roger, do you have any information on the Treatments faccilites in Bad Cannstatt and the others in West Germany?. They were started aaround 1974. I know that Marty Mann was involved with these Treatment facilities. I would like to add this to the CER history. Thanks Dolores IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8273. . . . . . . . . . . . Senate Testimony on Alcoholism in Military 1970 From: Roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2012 8:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Many of us know of Jim B. and the gold braid on his Navy Captain uniform from Nancy Olson's book and the excerpt on hindsfoot.org. I found a quote in the Senate transcript equally interesting. Jim S. also an AA member testifying before the sub-committee was in the Army 20 years and worked with nuclear weapons at the peak of his drinking days. He had a classic response to Senator Hughes when answering the question below. SENTATOR HUGHES: Would you say the nuclear warhead could be in the hands of alcoholics on occasion? JIM S.: The nuclear warhead was definitely in the hands of one alcoholic sir. I can speak for one. Does anyone know more of Jim S.? Is he still with us by any chance? The other two AA members who testified, Hal M. and Jim B. are mentioned in earlier posts but I can't find anything on Jim S. Thank you all for your service! Roger W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8274. . . . . . . . . . . . Info on Bill W Documentary (including Trailer link) From: bill@athenararebooks.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2012 11:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We now have some details on Bill W., the new documentary on the life of Bill Wilson produced by Page 124 Productions. It will be shown at the Cleveland International Film Festival (CIFF) in late March at the following times and location: Monday March 26, 7:15 PM (Plaza Cinemas at Chapel Hill, Cuyahoga Falls -- an Akron showing / not in Cleveland) Tuesday March 27, 4:10 PM (Tower City Cinemas in Cleveland, with a panel discussion after the screening) Wednesday March 28, 11:15 AM (Tower City Cinemas in Cleveland) If you can make any of these showings, details about buying tickets are available on the CIFF website: http://www.clevelandfilm.org/festival/films?search_text=bill+w [15] http://www.clevelandfilm.org/festival/films?search_text=bill+w [15]> The creative team has not yet announced any definite plans for the distribution of this film, but the DVD will be available June 10th. You can let them know that you want a copy when it's available if you go to www.page124.com/dvd/ http://www.page124.com/dvd/> More information about the documentary (along with a look at the TRAILER) can also be found at www.billw.com http://www.billw.com/> . IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8275. . . . . . . . . . . . March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs From: gary . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2012 1:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We will celebrate the 10 year anniversary for this group on March 30, 2012 - cake & candles anyone? Thank you to all who have kept this group going, and contributed to the success for the past ten years - I know this is one of the first things I check each morning - have used the information found here to visit many of our AA history sites across Canada and the US of A. - - - - TWELFTH ANNIVERSARY -- MARCH 16, 2000 - MARCH 16, 2012 From the present moderator: as a technicality -- and Lord knows how much all of us in this web group love, and live and breathe for, teensy and obscure technical quibbles !!! -- the anniversary of the group will be in March, but tomorrow -- on March 16 -- and it will be the 12th anniversary. The group was originally started by Nancy Olson under the name "AAHistoryBuffs": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryBuffs/ March 16, 2000 is the founding date given in the left-hand column of the home page. The first still-surviving messages were put on the Message Board on March 21, 2000. (Nancy went through both the AAHB and the AAHL on occasion, deleting messages that were on trivial topics, or simply repeated earlier messages, or were later shown to have gotten their information badly wrong.) But in Spring 2002, Nancy Olson changed her e-mail to another provider, and then discovered to her horror (a) that the Yahoo group system would not recognize her new e-mail address, and (b) that her old e-mail provider would not give her that old address back. So no one could any longer gain access to the management section of the Buffs, and keep the group operating properly. So she started the AAHistoryLovers, and then she -- along with Fiona Dodd, of County Mayo in Ireland, who has done an extraordinary amount of work on the AAHistoryLovers over the years -- selected the most important Buffs messages, and copied and pasted them into Lovers messages. I have just finished using a program called PG Offline to download ALL of the first ten years of AAHistoryLovers messages, from 2002 to 2011. They download in tabular form as Microsoft Access data files. I then used merge to transfer this tabular data to continuous MS Word files -- producing ten MS Word documents, one per year, each one around a thousand or so pages long. Unfortunately, the messages are full of the kind of web page coding used for HTML files and other similar online documents, to such a point that many sections are nearly totally unreadable. Codes like: Here are a couple of examples of what a lot of the MS Word version looks like when it is first converted from MS Access: ============================================ ++++Message 753+ Jean W. -- 40 years From: pennington2 1/2/2003 4:21:00 PM Jean Mullry of Bellevue, Nebraska died yesterday (01/01/3) at 5:30am. It was also her 40th A.A. Birthday --- her pigeon Peg M. had given her her chip the evening before. There will be a memorial service, yet to be announced (she donated her body to science --- in service even in death). Her children and other family members were with her when she passed. This year is the 60th anniversary of AA in Area 41 and Jean was interviewed for that occasion since she was one of the first woman members in the Omaha-Bellevue area. She was for several early years, secretary on the Central Office committee. She always signed her notes at the end with the words: "And peace and harmony prevailed." p2 >pennington2@yahoo.com ============================================ ++++Message 756+ Request - Local A.A. History From: Jim 1/6/2003 2:35:00 AM color="black"> http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor&# 92; th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_zh&tt=url [16]" target="_blank">Chinese - http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor&# 92; th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_fr&tt=url [17]">French - http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor&# 92; th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_de&tt=url [18]">German - http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor&# 92; th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_it&tt=url [19]">Italian - http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor&# 92; th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_ja&tt=url [20]">Japanese - http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor&# 92; th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_ko&tt=url [21]">Korean - http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor&# 92; th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_pt&tt=url [22]">Portuguese - http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor&# 92; th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_es&tt=url [23]">Spanish - http://fets3.freetranslation.com:5081/?Language=English/Norwegian&Url=&# 92; silkworth%2Enet%2FEmail%5FTranslation%2Ehtml&Sequence=core [24]">Norwegian - http://translation.paralink.com/url_mode/urlbot.asp?direction=131073&t&# 92; emplate=Default&autotranslate=true&url=http://silkworth.net/Email_Tr ansl\ ation.html [25]">Russian - http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/translate?wl_lp=EN-nl&wl_glossary=gl1&&# 92; ;wl_documenttype=dt1&wl_fl=2&wl_rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEm ail_\ Translation.html&wl_url=http://silkworth.net/Email_Translation.html& wl_g\ _table=-3 [26]">Dutch - http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/translate?wl_lp=EN-el&wl_glossary=gl1&&# 92; ;wl_documenttype=dt1&wl_fl=2&wl_rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEm ail_\ Translation.html&wl_url=http://silkworth.net/Email_Translation.html& wl_g\ _table=-3 [27]">Greek - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=bul&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [28]">\ Bulgarian - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=cro&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [29]">\ Croatian - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=che&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [30]">\ Czech - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=dan&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [31]">\ Danish - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=fin&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [32]">\ Finnish - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=hun&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [33]">\ Hungarian - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=ice&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [34]">\ Icelandic - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=tag&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [35]">\ Filipino - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=pol&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [36]">\ Polish - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=rom&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [37]">\ Romanian - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=sel&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [38]">\ Serbian - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=slo&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [39]">\ Slovenian - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=swe&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [40]">\ Swedish - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=wel&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [41]">\ Welsh - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=tur&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [42]">\ Turkish - http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t&# 92; o=ltt&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.ht ml [43]">\ Latin In an attempt to carry the message and preserve general localized AA histories, we have begun an ongoing project titled, "Growth of A.A." around the world — to bring all the worlds localized AA histories to one central location on the World Wide Web. What a wonderful experience it would be to be able to read about the history of any Group's, Counties, State's, Provences, Territory's, Republic's, and Countries localized A.A. history from a single location. We would very much like to add your local AA history to the Global Map on Silkworth.net. We invite your participation. The Global Map: http://silkworth.net/image_map/world.html" target="_blank">http://silkworth.net/image_map/world.html Yours in service, The Silkworth Team, http://silkworth.net/sitemap.html" target="_blank">http://silkworth.net/sitemap.html * Please foreward this email to any possible interested parties / individules knowledgable of local A.A. history. * This is a Global email from Silkworth.net. < \ /tr> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Join Excite! - *http://www.excite.com" target="_blank">http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ============================================ So I am having to go through the messages now, using search and replace to either delete these codes or replace them with MS Word commands. It'll take a while, but after it's been done, anybody who wants to will be able to have a copy on a CD disk of all of the old AAHistoryLovers in the form of easily readable MS Word documents. Yours in the fellowship, Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8276. . . . . . . . . . . . Traditions Question From: Michael Margetis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2012 5:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, Why was the "short form" of the Traditions written? Was the "short form" intended to replace the long form? Or simply provide an alternate, briefer version? At the 1950 Conference I understand that Bill paraphrased the traditions, so neither the short or long form was actually presented. Was Bill's paraphrasing simply a supplement to written material? Was the vote to accept Bill's paraphrasing or a handout that had either (or both?) the long and short form? As if I haven't asked enough questions, in a previous post on traditions it stated that the 1958 General Service Conference approved removing the word "honest" from the term "honest desire to stop drinking" in the AA Preamble. I was under the impression that the Grapevine copyrighted the preamble. Does the conference approve or disapprove Grapevine material? (I actually know they do not, but that's what confuses me . . . .) Is it that they did in 1958 but at some time later that changed? Thanks, Mike Margetis Brunswick, Maryland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8277. . . . . . . . . . . . Chet R -- It Might Have Been Worse -- not WW II but WW I vet From: martinnfisher . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2012 5:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To those who compile the biographies of the authors of the Personal Stories in the Big Book: There is an error in the biography of Chet R., author of "It Might Have Been Worse" (Part II, story (9) in the 4th Edition, p.348). It is presumed by the biographers that Chet's reference to "wartime service" refers to World War II. In fact, in the original story (2nd Edition, p.373) he says "Then there was World War I to interrupt my plans". This has been edited by AA in 4th Edition to "Then there was wartime service to interrupt my plans", obscuring the reference. I thought someone should know so the biography can be amended. Martin - - - - From G.C. the moderator: the only biography of Chet R. which I could find in a Google search was this one, which does in fact incorrectly surmise that Chet was a Second World War veteran instead of a First World War veteran: http://silkworth.net/aabiography/chetrude.html "Wartime service in the Army (presumably World War II) interrupted his plans for success. After the war he continued his education, married and had a family, and got started in business." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8278. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2012 7:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII commenrts on Message #8249 from Les Cole, jax760, and Glenn Chesnut Edgar ==================== LES COLE wrote: "March 3, 2012 Hello Edgar: I am very intrigued by your post. When I was writing my new book about Rogers Burnham (see www.LesCole-AA.com) I searched for information about Mark and after difficulty found a copy of "Rural Free Delivery" at the University of Vermont Library. They sent it to me as a loan and I found his poem "Lem's plan" very interesting concerning the Vermont culture. I do not recall reading what you quote below. Can you tell us where you got your book, and if it can become available somewhere?" ==================== EDGAR's comment: A copy of Rural Free Delivery was given me by Ron F, a frequenter of this site, and a long-time AA whose program I greatly admire. As to availability, you might check EBay or Amazon regularly for used copies. Other than that, I have no idea where it might be available, but you can see a complete online ebook at http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=123&seq=5&view=image&size=100&id= uc1.\ b248591 [44] ==================== LES COLE wrote: I can't believe he would be, or write about, being a murderer! ==================== EDGAR's comment: How many times have you read "He was a nice boy, happy and respectful! I can't believe he shot 27 people from the bell tower of the Episcopal church"? The full quote from page 123 of my copy, (second printing, first edition, Stephen Daye Press, 1942, Brattleboro, NY no ISBN) is: "I were always a tender hearted critter, I never could see no dumb creature or woman suffer on no account. I ups with the squirrel rifle and shoots Jeanne -- puts her out of her misery! Now she sleeps beneath the sour apple tree in my family buryin' ground right long side of my four regular wives and some mail order ones." ==================== JAX760 wrote: "Mark" Whalon is really John Mark Whalon. Mark was his middle name according to Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson House. John Mark Whalon is buried in a cemetery on the mountain, northeast of the Wilson House. ==================== ==================== WIKIPEDIA article says: Mark A Whalon (1886–1956) was an Irish-American author. Whalon was close friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and said to be a close influence on Wilson in his later life. ==================== ==================== FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: ????? Was there more than one author named Mark Whalon ????? One of them an "Irish-American author" and the other one -- a totally different person -- a New Englander who was the local rural mail man in Vermont and was a friend of Bill Wilson, Roger Burnham, and the young Les Cole? Facebook for example lists seven Glenn Chesnut's in the United States, one of them an architect in California, another one a chiropractor in Montgomery, Alabama, etc. And there's yet another Glenn F. Chesnut who -- according to Google -- died on March 1, 1976, and I know for a fact that this man's body is supposed to lie buried in the cemetery in Barbourville, Kentucky. Of course, this was in the daylight. After the sun sets, strange things have been known to happen in cemeteries way back in those hills .... [in the background, eerie music followed by a sinister and foreboding laugh]. Does this perhaps mean that the moderator of the AAHistoryLovers is actually a zombie, lumbering along and trying to catch you, in order to eat your brains? ==================== EDGAR's comment: How is he identified on his headstone? Mark A or John Mark ?????????????????? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8279. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2012 2:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You can see Mark Whalon's complete book online at http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=123&seq=5&view=image&size=100&id= uc1.\ b248591 [44] Anyone with a computer can read the book there, one page at a time, and download and save each page as a PDF file. Or (if you are connected with one of the partner universities and have the right pass code) you can unload the entire book as a single PDF file and save that single large file on your computer's hard drive. The story we are talking about is from one of the book's chapters, entitled "Hankerin' Pinein' an' Romance!" and is a story about a young woman artist who asked the rural mail man to pose for her while she painted his picture, and in the process fell helplessly in love with him. I have copied out the complete text here from pages 122 to 123 of Mark Whalon's book: =============================================== [page 122] women still lingered on. When she was puttin' on the finishing touches I'd stroll over and pat her on the head and mebby my whiskers did kinda brush her hair etc. I excused all this to myself by tellin' myself that I did it to draw out of her the best that was in her in Art. I noticed she kept, what she called "doing me over" and I noticed every time she "did me over" she made me handsomer -- and I kept on with my durned fol-de-rol a talkin' to her. She put back lots of hair on my head and she put a young eager lusty look in my eye that really wa'n't thar at all. Why, she even combed my whiskers and took out that yellow streak down the middle of 'em. Wal, anyhow the picture got finished one day and I said to Jeanne, "What you going to name it?" She kinda sniffled and bawled and laughed all at once and said "I'll call it 'Vermont Don Keotee'." I never did now what she meant by that name but I'm of the opinion it means somethin' Romantic. I'd like to stop right here and have you think everything ended right there but it didn't. Thar's a mighty touchin' sequel I've got to hitch on. You see Jeanne couldn't get rid of that fancy she'd took to me when she finished the picture. It growed on her! She haunted me! Pebbles rattled [page 123] on my roof at night and lonely howls riz out of the cedar swamp. When I driv along my mail route I see her a gazin' out of the bushes at me with eyes like a dyin' calf. It got to be terible for both of us. I got desperate: -- wanted to get away from it all. I got Ham Hadden to run the mail route for me and I went way back of the mountain squirrelhuntin'. I got a lot of squirrels. The huntin' did me good. Comm' home at evening I got most to the home clearin and thar twixt me and the house on a log at the edge of the wood was Jeanne. I'd washed out my other pair of pants and hung them on a limb to dry and I could see them a wringin', a twistin', and a billowin' in the breeze. And thar was Jeanne a gazin' out acrost the field at them pants with a sorrowful, sufferin' look on her face. I were always a tender hearted critter. I never could see no dumb beast or woman suffer on no account. I ups with the squirrel-rifle and shoots Jeanne -- puts her out of her misery! Now she sleeps beneath the sour apple tree in my family buryin' ground right 'long side of my four regular wives and some mail-order ones. But anyhow, she died convinced thar is Romance along a back road in Vermont. =============================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8280. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2012 2:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If that doesn't sound like humor, I do not know what does. He is showing at least five definite murdered women and some more. I could kid about this, but let's let him be the humorist. He seems to have an ear for dialect. In a message dated 3/22/2012 2:14:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, edgarc@aol.com writes: "I were always a tender hearted critter, I never could see no dumb creature or woman suffer on no account. I ups with the squirrel rifle and shoots Jeanne -- puts her out of her misery! Now she sleeps beneath the sour apple tree in my family buryin' ground right long side of my four regular wives and some mail order ones." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8281. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 From: Gary Govier . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2012 7:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Since there has been a lot of talk about Bill Swegan, prior to Bill Swegan's passing, he was looking for a article or a paper he wrote and it was in the Sears encyclopedia. Does anyone have a lead or direction where I can find that piece? Thanks BIKERGARYG New Jersey - - - - From GLENN C. the moderator: the following is taken from Bill Swegan's book on The Psychology of Alcoholism. I used to have a copy of that article -- I used it when I was helping him write the book -- but it is stored somewhere in my basement at this point, in a big stack of boxes, and would take so long to find that it would be far quicker and easier to find a good university library that either had back copies of the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, or would be willing to order you a photocopy through interlibrary loan. Anyway, here's what it says in Bill Swegan's book: ============================================= Medical science continued to make progress in this area during the years following. The discovery of medications which would act as better tranquillizers was of great help to those of us who were running alcoholism treatment programs. I co-authored an article in 1958, along with Neville Murray, M.D., a psychiatrist in San Antonio, entitled “To Tranquillize or Not to Tranquillize.” It appeared in the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, and received such wide notice that excerpts from it were reprinted in the 1958 yearbook put out by a popular American encyclopedia.* *********************************** *ENDNOTE 18: Neville Murray, M.D., and M/Sgt William Swegan, USAF, “To Tranquillize or Not to Tranquillize,” Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol 19, no. 3 (September 1958): 509-510. Excerpts reprinted in the 1958 yearbook of the American Peoples Encyclopedia (a popular set of volumes distributed by Sears Roebuck). *********************************** I wrote the article because I had become unhappy with a small but often highly vocal minority within Alcoholics Anonymous who totally rejected the use of any kind of medication by alcoholics in recovery. When they discovered that a newcomer was taking medication prescribed by a psychiatrist or physician, they would snarl at meetings, “You might as well change your sobriety date then. You aren’t sober until you have quit using drugs in any form at all.” The fact was that large doses of the paraldehyde used by Dr. Bob in the 1930’s could further excite and nauseate patients in delirium. Barbiturates like the sodium luminol which Sister Ignatia was some-times using in 1951 could leave a patient dangerously anesthetized and tended to have unpredictable effects. By 1958, we had discovered that the intravenous administration of some of the newly dis-covered tranquillizers like chlorpromazine, promazine, or tri-flupromazine could often produce rapid improvement with many individuals, without the same negative side effects. When a serious alcoholic stops drinking, the delirium tremens which results can be extremely dangerous. Some patients go into convulsions, the heart refuses to start beating properly afterwards, and even with prompt medical intervention the patient may die. Some people seem to believe that alcoholics must suffer enormously during withdrawal to “expiate their sins” of excessive alcohol abuse, but this sort of punitive approach to alcoholism treatment does not seem to improve a treatment center’s success rate at all. In fact patients respond better and more positively to the rest of the treatment program if they can, from the beginning of abstaining from alcohol, start to feel a freedom from discomfort never before experienced. It gives them a positive attitude, at a deep psychological level, toward being freed from dependence on alcohol. “I do in fact feel much better without any alcohol in my system” is an excel-lent starting point for teaching people how to remain abstinent. ============================================= IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8282. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? From: Jonathan Lanham-Cook . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2012 1:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IN THE SECOND EDITION OF THE BIG BOOK: The earliest printing of the second edition to have the Spencer quote is the third printing. The first three printings do not have the printing stated on the reverse of the title page - this first appears ion the fourth printing. There are slight differences between the first three printings - mostly in terms of the number of groups on page 16 and the first printing has a spelling error on page xx (I think). The third printing also has a mispelt dust jacket which has third edition on it no second - it is the only one with this error. I have a complete set of 2nd editions here so if you need to know any other details I'll go and have a look for you God bless Jonathan :-) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8283. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2012 5:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie Andrews, Bill (Lambchopp), planternva, charlieparker, and Kimball ROWE - - - - From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Radio 3, the BBC channel that plays classical music, broadcasts 30 hours of silence a year (pauses in the music and between contributions etc). It occurred to me: How do they know? And who on earth wanted to know! - - - - From: Bill lambchopp@gmail.com> (lambchopp at gmail.com) I am curious as to the historical significance of these word counts? Bill L Lambchopp - - - - From: "planternva2000" planternva2000@yahoo.com> (planternva2000 at yahoo.com) Has anyone counted the commas, colons, dashes, quotes and other punctuation marks? - - - - From: "charlieparker" charlieparker@prodigy.net> (charlieparker at prodigy.net) Reason refers to "reason" but it is illustrating that we have deified Reason in this case. Charlie P - - - - From: Kimball ROWE roweke@msn.com> (roweke at msn.com) Also, MS WORD has a word frequency counter add-on, it's on the review tab. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8284. . . . . . . . . . . . Doctor Silkworth From: kate.frisby . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2012 5:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the Doctor's Opinion, (Big Book p. xxx) Dr Silkworth talks about men and women "making the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight." I just wondered if anyone knew of Dr Silkworth's experiences with situations of this sort. Did he ever give any specific examples of alcoholics to whom this happened? If he has would it be possible to get copies of these people's stories? Thanks - - - - From GLENN C. the moderator: the phrase "the supreme sacrifice" means "the sacrifice of one's life." In ordinary English usage, it usually refers to people who gave their lives in battle: a soldier at war, a fireman fighting a fire, a police officer trying to apprehend an armed criminal, etc. Or (more specifically in Christian thought) it can refer to the Supreme Sacrifice made by Jesus Christ in his death on the cross. Or (in this context) could Dr. Silkworth have been referring to alcoholics who finally decided to give up the struggle and committed SUICIDE after fruitlessly trying over and over to stop drinking by the use of their own will power alone? Because what Silkworth was talking about here was the phenomenon of alcoholic craving, and the alcoholic's inability to win the battle against that craving by the use of will power. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8285. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2012 3:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message #8278, Edgar refers to the copy of the Mark Whalon book which he used as: ==================================== second printing, first edition, Stephen Daye Press, 1942, Brattleboro, NY no ISBN ==================================== That should be Brattleboro, VERMONT, not New York. Brattleboro is the site of the Brattleboro Retreat, or, as some call it, Asylum. I have had family there and never heard it referred to as the latter. Two of my uncles went thru treatment there. - - - - And then, in the same message, JAX760 wrote: "Mark" Whalon is really John Mark Whalon. Mark was his middle name according to Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson House. John Mark Whalon is buried in a cemetery on the mountain, northeast of the Wilson House. But then the WIKIPEDIA article on him gives the name as "Mark A" instead of "John Mark": ==================================== Mark A Whalon (1886 - 1956) was an Irish-American author. Whalon was close friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and said to be a close influence on Wilson in his later life. ==================================== Les has several photographs of tombstones in his excellent book, but, alas, not the Whalon one. Is the cemetery referred to the one behind the Roman Catholic Church in East Dorset? It is east and a bit of the Wilson House. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8286. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2012 9:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There doesn't seem to be a way of linking to it, but I think you will find most of the essay, under the title "Prayer is Power," in the Google books scan of this anthology: The Questing Spirit: Religion in the Literature of our Time. There was one page missing when I checked it. Elsewhere in Google Books there is an excerpted version under the same title. I'm sure John doesn't need the warning, but others might want to find out a little bit about Carrel before reading his (inspirational, I admit) writings. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8287. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2012 4:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wikipedia article on Alexis Carrel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Carrel Alexis Carrel (June 28, 1873 - November 5, 1944) was a French surgeon and biologist who was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1912 for pioneering vascular suturing techniques. He invented the first perfusion pump with Charles A. Lindbergh opening the way to organ transplantation. Like many intellectuals before World War II he promoted eugenics. He was a regent for the French Foundation for the Study of Human Problems during the Nazi occupation of Vichy France which implemented the eugenics policies there; his association with the Foundation led to allegations of collaborating with the Nazis. In the 1930s, Carrel and Charles Lindbergh became close friends not only because of the years they worked together but also because they shared personal, political, and social views. Due to his close proximity with Jacques Doriot's fascist Parti Populaire Français (PPF) during the 1930s and his role in implementing eugenics policies during Vichy France, he was accused after the Liberation of collaborationism, but died before the trial. In 1935, Carrel published a book titled Man, The Unknown (L'Homme, cet Inconnu), which became a best-seller. The book discussed "the nature of society in light of discoveries in biology, physics, and medicine". It contained his own social prescriptions, advocating, in part, that mankind could better itself by following the guidance of an elite group of intellectuals, and by implementing a regime of enforced eugenics. Carrel claimed the existence of a "hereditary biological aristocracy" and argued that "deviant" human types should be suppressed using techniques similar to those later employed by the Nazis. GAS CHAMBERS FOR KILLING THE SUBHUMAN: "A euthanasia establishment, equipped with a suitable gas, would allow the humanitarian and economic disposal of those who have killed, committed armed robbery, kidnapped children, robbed the poor or seriously betrayed public confidence," Carrel wrote in L'Homme, cet Inconnu. "Would the same system not be appropriate for lunatics who have committed criminal acts?" he suggested. PRAISE FOR ADOLF HITLER'S DEATH CAMPS: In the 1936 preface to the German edition of his book, Alexis Carrel added a praise to the eugenics policies of Hitler's Germany, writing that: "The German government has taken energetic measures against the propagation of the defective, the mentally diseased, and the criminal. The ideal solution would be the suppression of each of these individuals as soon as he has proven himself to be dangerous." Carrel also wrote in his book that: "The conditioning of petty criminals with the whip, or some more scientific procedure, followed by a short stay in hospital, would probably suffice to insure order. Those who have murdered, robbed while armed with automatic pistol or machine gun, kidnapped children, despoiled the poor of their savings, misled the public in important matters, should be humanely and economically disposed of in small euthanasic institutions supplied with proper gasses. A similar treatment could be advantageously applied to the insane, guilty of criminal acts." - - - - See also the book "Uncommon Friends: Life with Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Harvey Firestone, Alexis Carrel, and Charles Lindbergh" (1987), by James Newton. A book about the close friendship between Alexis Carrel and these other three men. Harvey Firestone was the founder of the Firestone Tire and Rubber Company, and the man who first brought the Oxford Group to Akron, Ohio (where Dr. Bob joined the group in an attempt to stop drinking). Henry Ford was the major promulgator in the United States of an insidiously influential anti-Semitic document called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. He sent half a million copies all over the country until a Jewish lawyer filed a successful lawsuit and stopped him from distributing any more of them. It was a total fake, but claimed to be an account of the Jewish plan for taking over the whole world. Arabic translations of this foul document are still being used by Muslim terrorist groups in the Near East, telling their followers that all the things said in this document are "absolutely true," and the reason why good people should be willing to sacrifice their lives to destroy the Israelis. Charles Lindbergh remained a loyal adviser to the American government during the Second World War, but President Roosevelt himself complained that he had never been able to get Lindbergh to condemn a single thing which the Nazis did, including even the Nazi gas chambers where they killed so many Jews (and others). Lindbergh insisted that, between the British and the Germans, he thought it was about six of the one and a half dozen of the other, and (when the Second World War was beginning) tried to dissuade President Roosevelt from taking sides between the British and Hitler. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2012 9:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Prayer is not only worship; it is also an invisible emanation of man's worshipping spirit - the most powerful form of energy that one can generate. If you make a habit of sincere prayer, your life will be very noticeably and profoundly enriched. Prayer is a force as real as terrestrial gravity. As a doctor, I have seen men, after all therapy had failed, lifted out of disease and melancholy by the serene effort of prayer. Such occasions have been termed miracle. But a constant, quieter miracle takes place hourly in the hearts of men and women who have discovered that prayer supplies them with a steady flow of sustaining power in their daily lives. Too many people regard prayer as a formalized routine of words, a refuge for weaklings or a childish petition for material things. Properly understood, prayer is a mature activity indispensable to the fullest development of personality. Only in prayer do we achieve that complete, harmonious assembly of body, mind and spirit which gives the frail human reed its unshakeable strength. How does prayer fortify us with so much dynamic power? To answer this question (admittedly outside the jurisdiction of science) I must point out that all prayers demonstrate the same truth; human beings seek to augment their finite energy by addressing themselves to the infinite source of all energy. When we pray, we link ourselves with the inexhaustible motive power that spins the universe. We ask that a part of this power be apportioned to our needs. Even in asking, our human deficiencies are filled, and we arise strengthened and repaired. In order really to mold personality, prayer must become a habit. One can pray everywhere; in the street, the office, the school, in the solitude of one's own room, in a church. There is no prescribed posture, time or place. But it is meaningless to pray in the morning and to live like a barbarian the remainder of the day. True prayer is a way of life; the truest life is literally a way of prayer. Today, lack of emphasis on the religious sense has brought the world to the edge of destruction. Our deepest source of power and perfection has been left miserably undeveloped. Prayer, the basic exercise of the spirit, must be actively practiced by man and nations. For if the power of prayer is again released and used in the lives of common men and women, there is yet hope that our prayers for a better world will be answered. (Prayer is Power by Alexis Carrel in Reader's Digest March 1963). Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8289. . . . . . . . . . . . Alexis Carrel From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2012 1:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a link to a record for the book "Prayer is Power" by Alexis Carrel, 196?. http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/37266793 It is only held in two locations, but there is a Readers Digest anthology that includes it, and that anthology is held in many libraries, and could easily be gotten through interlibrary loan. http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/365188 Some of his books are for sale in http://abebooks.com as well. Interesting sounding book, and author, hadn't heard of him before. Is his writing something early AA's were known to read? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Carrel Charlie Cowling Clarkson, NY IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8290. . . . . . . . . . . . Word Use From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2012 6:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Bill lambchopp@gmail.com > (lambchopp at gmail.com) I am curious as to the historical significance of these word counts? Bill L Lambchopp - - - - These word counts give people like me who have wretched lives with nothing better to do than to study word use in A.A. literature and make great proclamations, trying to impress the credulous with our great intellectual abilities. It also provide fodder for arguments. The word "sponsor" is not used in the Big Book. How significant is that? The word "ego" is used a lot in current discussions in meetings, but it is very sparingly used in the Big Book and 12 & 12, which implies it wasn't used much in early A.A. However, Wilson used the word/prefix "self" a whole lot. I suspect it was a cultural thing. I have the Purple Salamander Press concordance, and I also have one for the two books by 164 and More, which I find very useful as I can carry it to meetings and negates the need to memorize which pages the words are used on. At my age, any extra space in my brain is put to use. I just wish 164 and More had included As Bill Sees It. That's it for now. Back to pondering the use of the dash in A.A. literature . . . . Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8291. . . . . . . . . . . . Archived AAHL messages 2002, 2003, and 2004 now available From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2012 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII All the messages from the AAHistoryLovers's first ten years (2002-2011) have now been collected into one huge computer database. The Hindsfoot site will be posting the first drafts (as they become available) of the messages as they are edited into a more readable fashion as Microsoft Word DOCX documents. See, on the Hindsfoot site, A.A. Historical Materials Part 2 at http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html which gives a link near the top of the page to the specific webpage on this topic: http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html The first three years of the group's messages are now available for downloading: AA History Lovers for 2002, Messages 1-751 http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs02.docx AA History Lovers for 2003, Messages 753- 1574 http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs03.docx AA History Lovers for 2004, Messages 1575-2117 http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs04.docx Apologies -- the messages were pulled off the database using what is called "mail merge" in the most recent version of MS Word, which saves its files with the DOCX file extension instead of the older DOC suffix. All the new copies of MS Word use the .docx file format. Also, in my own experiments, these massively long files come out a good deal shorter in the .docx format (these .docx files are essentially zipped XML documents). IF YOU HAVE AN OLDER VERSION OF MICROSOFT WORD, how can you read these documents? If you do a search on the internet for docx, you will find that you have several alternatives: (a) You can download a free compatability pack which will allow some of the earlier versions of MS Word to download files in the the next .docx format: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/open-a-word-2007-document-in-an- earl\ ier-version-of-word-HA010044473.aspx [45] (b) There are sites like the following which will convert .docx to .doc files for free: http://www.doc.investintech.com/ (c) Last but not least it is possible to download a copy (for free) of OpenOffice, which can read the .docx files, and can also convert them into other file formats: http://www.openoffice.org/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8292. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2012 10:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Carrel's influence on AA can be found in Bill's 1944 talk to the Yale School of Alcohol Studies. (excerpt below) The description of AA as a "synthesis" of medicine and religion as Bill is often quoted, came from Carrel and his work "Man The Unknown" according to Bill. As Cora and Glenn have pointed out some of his ideology is pretty far from the main stream. "Then we read a book by Dr. Carrel. From that book came an argument that is now a part of our system. (How much we may agree with the book in general, I don't know, but in this respect the AA's think he had something.) Dr. Carrel wrote, in effect; the world is full of analysts. We have tons of ore in the mines and we have all kinds of building materials above ground. Here is a man specializing in this, there is a man specializing in that, and another one in something else. The modern world is full of wonderful analysts and diggers, but there are very few who deliberately synthesize, who bring together different materials, who assemble new things. We are much too shy on synthetic thinking - the kind of thinking that's willing to reach out now here and now there to see if something new cannot be evolved. On reading that book some of us realized that was just what we had been groping toward. We had been trying to build out of our own experiences. At this point we thought, "Let's reach into other people's experiences. Let's go back to our friends the doctors, let's go back to our friends the preachers, the social workers, all those who have been concerned with us, and again review what they have got above ground and bring that into the synthesis. And let us, where we can, bring them in where they will fit." So our process of trial and error began and, at the end of 4 years, the material was cast in the form of a book known as Alcoholics Anonymous. And then our friends of the press came in and they began to say nice things about us. That was not too hard for them to do because by that time we had gotten hold of the idea of not fighting anything or anyone. We began to say, "Our only motive as an organization is to help the alcoholic. And to help him we've got to reach him. Therefore, we can't collide with his prejudices. So we aren't going to get mixed up with controversial questions, no matter what we, as individuals, think of them. We can't get concerned with prohibition, or whether to drink or not to drink. We can't get concerned with doctrine and dogma in a religious sense. We can't get into politics, because that will arouse prejudice which might keep away alcoholics who will go off and die when they might have recovered." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8293. . . . . . . . . . . . Where did Bill and Lois over look the ocean before Bill left for Over There? From: gary . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2012 1:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My wife and I are going east this year from the Niagara Falls Canada area, and will be stopping at Brown University in RH to vist the W.D. Kirk collection. Just wondering if anyone knows the exact spot where Bill and Lois overlooked the Atlantic Ocean before he went to war. I would like to get a picture from this spot. Also anything else we should look up in this area that would be of AA interest? Gary IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8294. . . . . . . . . . . . Fwd: Mark Whalon headstone From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2012 8:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a later msg than the one below, which transmitted the photo of John Mark Whalon's headstone and the church, Ron F wrote "Sorry for the lapse of mind. It's St. Jerome's Cemetery. You can google East Dorset and see It on the map...ronf" ____________________________________ From: ron.f To: EdgarC@aol.com Sent: 3/23/2012 8:19:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time Subj: mark Edgar Thanks for your kind words and the controversy, very fun. Here's the old church where John Mark is buried and the tombstone. He didn't practice what he had been preaching in one of his stories about getting a good stone before you die ... ronf ... feel free to use the pics as you wish. Will get the name of the cemetery if you need that as escapes the mind at present ... it's Catholic for sure. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8295. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2012 11:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Norm the Tinman, kochbrian, Charlie Parker, Dudley D. Birr, buckjohnson, with a reference also to John Barton's Names of the First One Hundred - - - - From: Norm The Tinman normtinman@yahoo.com> (normtinman at yahoo.com) I think you'll find that as each edition was re written the numbers changed -- Norm - - - - From: "B" kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com) More information comes in. Here is Bill's story as it appeared in the first printing. "There is scarcely any form of human misadventure and misery which has not been overcome among us. In a Western city and its environs, there are sixty of us and our families. We often meet informally at our houses, so that newcomers may find what they seek. Gatherings of twenty to sixty are common. We are growing in numbers and power." I am asking if anyone knows in which printings the verbage changed here, and in There is a Solution, to reflect growing membership? I know from the forward to the second edition, it talks about 2,000 members in march of 1941, and 8,000 members by the close of 1941. Based on the following: First Printing, April, 1939 Second Printing, March, 1941 Third Printing, June, 1942 Fourth Printing, March, 1943 Fifth Printing, January, 1944 Sixth Printing, June, 1944 Seventh Printing, January, 1945 Eighth Printing, February, 1945 Ninth Printing, January, 1946 Tenth Printing, August, 1946 Eleventh Printing, June 1947 Twelfth Printing, October, 1948 Thirteenth Printing, February, 1950 Fourteenth Printing, July, 1951 BY THE CORNWALL PRESS, INC., CORNWALL, N.Y. PRINTED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA I would guess some changes in the 2nd and 3rd printings at the least? Thanks all!! - - - - From: "Charlie Parker" charlieparker@prodigy.net> (charlieparker at prodigy.net) There were One Hundred originally (more or less). There have been many changes to those numbers in various printings and editions of the Big Book over the years to update the numbers as well as a lot of other changes. Many of us were told for years in the discussion meetings that "there have never been any changes to the first 164 pages of the Big Book". This is far from true. The forward to the second edition pertaining to these changes is easily misread. Pages 50-51 now say "thousands" and "many hundreds". In the first edition first printing those same passages said "100." At some point in the editions of the Preface for the 4th edition BB they changed "has been left untouched" to say "has been left largely untouched". A pretty significant change. Charlie P Austin - - - - From: Dudley Dobinson DudleyDobinson@aol.com> (DudleyDobinson at aol.com) Hi, The first printing on page 25 (Now 15) says 80 members and "At these informal gatherings one may often see from 40 to 80 persons." On page 27 (Now 17) refers to "One hundred men who were just as hopeless as Bill." Adjustments were made in later printings. Dudley D. Birr Ireland PS The Doctor's Opinion was numbered pages 1 to 9 in the First Edition - - - - From: "buckjohnson41686" buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com> (buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com) On "the First Hundred," many AA historians believe that this was more like 40, but with spouses may have rounded up to 100. The numbers recorded in the Big Book were increased in later printings as more alcoholics joined AA. - - - - From the moderator: the figure which is sometimes cited of "40 members in April 1939" comes from the known list of those who got their stories in the Big Book, plus about ten more whom we know a good deal about, and who we know were sober at that time. But a list this short may well be a bit on the over-skeptical side. Certainly, when citing this, it is well to refer people to John Barton's list, which is well researched and needs to be taken seriously. JOHN BARTON HAS ASSEMBLED A LIST OF 100 PEOPLE WHO HAD JOINED A.A. BY APRIL 1, 1939 Message #8061 Names of the First One Hundred http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8061 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8296. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs From: Ben Hammond . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2012 4:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Happy Birthday ... God Bless all of you who provide this wonderful resource. Old Ben in Tulsa IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8297. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2012 12:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Dolores - Dave and I hadn't heard about Marty Mann's connection with these military treatment centers, and would love to learn whatever you find out. In addition, even though I retired recently as a 20-year staff chaplain at the Palo Alto VA (Veterans Affairs Health Care System), I will always have a deep interest in anything involving health treatment of our military, be they active or vets. Thanks very much. Sally Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv Board Certified Clinical Chaplain United Church of Christ coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous - - - - Subject: Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service Hi Roger, do you have any information on the Treatments facilities in Bad Cannstatt and the others in West Germany?. They were started around 1974. I know that Marty Mann was involved with these Treatment facilities. I would like to add this to the CER history. Thanks Dolores IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8298. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service From: Roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2012 5:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Dolores - I know Continental Europe Region has a rich history and thank you for your excellent service as archivist there. I could not find anything on Bad Cannstatt but I do have a GV article (Jan 1974) describing a treatment program in Wiesbaden (about 200km away). I will send you copy of the whole article. The article was written by an AA member Raleigh B. whom you may have information about in the CER archives. He had 20 years at the time and volunteered at the U.S. Air Force's Alcoholism Rehabilitation Center (ARC) in Wiesbaden, Germany. Colonel John P. McDonough, a physician, was director of the program, which went into operation January 24, 1973. The ARC was a twenty-eight-day, total-immersion project. I will keep looking and pass along to you if I find anything from Bad Cannstatt/Stuttgart area from that time. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8299. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) From: buckjohnson41686 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2012 8:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com> (buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com) SEE MESSAGE 6882, Sun Sep 19, 2010: Already 80 people in the Cleveland group in Spring 1939? Geoff Smith noted that in Bill's story, it mentions that "in a western town there are thousands of members," yet when the book was written there were fewer than 100 alcoholics total. Was this added to Bill's story later? I don't think so, as it's in my 1st edition. What is the explanation for this mismatch? Glenn Chesnut responded: I think Geoff is referring to the passage found on pp. 15-16 in the current (4th) edition: "In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our families. We meet frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship they seek. At these informal gatherings one may often see from 50 to 200 persons. We are growing in numbers and power." According to my notes, the "western city" was Cleveland, and in the second printing of the 1st edition, among the changes made: On page 25 line 23, 80 of us was changed to 500 of us. And on page 25 line 26, 40-80 persons was changed to 50-200 persons. Later on, in the third printing of the 1st edition, on page 25 line 23, 500 of us was changed to 1000 of us. Is this the passage that you are asking about, Geoff? There is still the question of the Big Book's original statement that in 1939 there were 80 people in the Cleveland area (even if we count families as well as the alcoholics themselves), with 40 to 80 people attending "informal gatherings" there. Has this group ever looked at those numbers? Are they are all possible? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8300. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Traditions Question From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2012 1:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From what used to be the west Baltimore group. 1949 As plans for the first Int'l Convention were under way, Earl T suggested to Bill W that the Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition would benefit from revision and shortening. (AACOA 213 says it occurred in 1947) Bill, with Earl's help, set out to develop the short form of the Twelve Traditions. (AACOA 213, GTBT 55, 77, PIO 334) November, the short form of the Twelve Traditions was first printed in the AA Grapevine. The entire issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for the forthcoming Cleveland Convention. Two wording changes were subsequently made to the initial version of the short form of the Traditions: "primary spiritual aim" was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6, and "principles above personalities" was changed to "principles before personalities" in Tradition 12. (LOH 96) - - - - In a message dated 3/18/2012 12:50:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mfmargetis@yahoo.com writes: Why was the "short form" of the Traditions written? Was the "short form" intended to replace the long form? Or simply provide an alternate, briefer version? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8301. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First AA meeting in London, England 1948 From: Jonathan Lanham-Cook . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2012 1:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Dorchester meeting was 1947 not 1948 all the best Jonathan L-C :-) - - - - Message #8160 from "dorothy.banks97" ullathorne@toucansurf.com> (ullathorne at toucansurf.com) "First AA meeting in London, England 1948" On 31st March the first recorded meeting was held in Room 202 of the Dorchester Hotel, London, at the invitation of Grace O, a visiting American member who had previously met Canadian Bob in a London Dean St restaurant. Can anyone there at history lovers update on the happy fate of the USA members who attended please? Grace O. Vernon W (an American serviceman) Ward Williams (American) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8302. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe and Charley's third step handout From: a49585 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2012 2:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a copy of the third step handout used during the Joe & Charlie Big Book workshops? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8303. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2012 2:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It used to be said that the first 36 hours of not drinking were the most dangerous for the alcoholic that is being treated in recovering from the effects of alcohol. So the medical people were supposed to sedate the alcoholic during this time to reduce the risk of his dying. I think we should not lose sight of this if we are working with someone with acute alcoholism. - - - - With reference to Bill Swegan's scientific journal article on the advantages to using tranquillizers to help alcoholics through early detox instead of the substances like barbiturates (as in the case of Dr. Bob) and paraldehyde, that were used in earlier AA practice. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8304. . . . . . . . . . . . How much did Bill W. earn from working in stocks? From: kate.frisby . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2012 4:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How much money did Bill make personally from his work in the stock exchange? Thanks Kate IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8305. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Word Use From: Sherry C. Hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2012 7:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Sherry Hartsell, planternva2000, Roy Levin, and brian koch - - - - TOMMY HICKCOX'S COMMENTS hit a responsive chord, and many people wrote in responding to him. Tommy said: ==================== These word counts give people like me who have wretched lives with nothing better to do than to study word use in A.A. literature and make great proclamations, trying to impress the credulous with our great intellectual abilities. It also provide fodder for arguments. The word "sponsor" is not used in the Big Book. How significant is that? The word "ego" is used a lot in current discussions in meetings, but it is very sparingly used in the Big Book and 12 & 12, which implies it wasn't used much in early A.A. However, Wilson used the word/prefix "self" a whole lot. I suspect it was a cultural thing. I have the Purple Salamander Press concordance, and I also have one for the two books by 164 and More, which I find very useful as I can carry it to meetings and negates the need to memorize which pages the words are used on. At my age, any extra space in my brain is put to use. I just wish 164 and More had included As Bill Sees It. That's it for now. Back to pondering the use of the dash in A.A. literature . . . . Tommy H in Danville ==================== From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" hartsell@etex.net> (hartsell at etex.net) Tommy, everyone needs something to do and I found this note informative, thanks. Sherry C. H. Gilmer, Texas - - - - From: "planternva2000" planternva2000@yahoo.com> (planternva2000 at yahoo.com) Technically, it is an 'emdash': "A symbol used in writing and printing to indicate a break in thought or sentence structure, to introduce a phrase added for emphasis, definition, or explanation, or to separate two clauses." - - - - From: Roy Levin royslev@yahoo.com> (royslev at yahoo.com) You're my kind of AA book fanatic. One question I haven't gotten much feedback on regarding semantic nuances in the book is whether Bill W. ever commented on a distinction between "selfish" and "self-seeking." I have asked for feedback on this and only gotten personal interpretations. I was hoping for a reference to a talk or workshop given by Bill W. where he was asked this question and answered it (as he was asked whether he meant any difference between charcater defects and shortcomings, and he said "No, I just didn't want to repeat myself using the same word as it was considered inferior prose style.") But selfish and self-seeking are used in the same sentence in the book, which could be construed as implying a difference between the two terms. - - - - From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com) Good question regarding significance. was running around in my head too .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8306. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs From: Shakey Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2012 12:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I knew Nancy O. and will never forget dining with her the evening before the AA Archives conference with her, our host Jared L and his wife Janie, Mr and Mrs Mel B,and my wife to be Anne Marie. As AA history was discussed I merely listened. I asked a couple of questions. I listened to those who were talking AA history first hand. They were there. What an experience. It was due to friendships that were formed by being a member of "Buffs" and then "History Lovers." Happy Birthday and many more. We are all blessed that it survives and flourishes. That was Nancy's dream. All of you made it possible. Thank You AAHL's, Shakey Mike Phila,PA USA - - - - TWELFTH ANNIVERSARY -- MARCH 16, 2000 - MARCH 16, 2012 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8307. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs From: bevflk@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2012 9:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Happy Birthday!!! Thank you for giving me the info on our founding fathers and AA history Beverly in Tucson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8308. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Beer served at AA meeting? From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2012 12:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A collection of 'factlets' that one might find helpful - ==================== http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1661 Letter from Ruth Hock to Bill Wilson dated November 10, 1955 To keep us humble and laughing were developments like the Southern group started via mail through (was his last name Henry?) Anyway, he wrote us flowing reports about his group and its amazing recoveries of members of his group. One of our traveling members stopped in for a visit and his letter to us was an eye opener indeed. It seems that this particular group was based on the theory that all alcoholic beverages were very bad for the alcoholic - except beer. This idea was carried out so thoroughly that beer was served at their A.A. meetings with copious readings of the A.A. book. Oh well - the beer itself soon cured that misconception. ==================== http://howtosurviveaa.com/worst-aa-meetings/ TRANSCRIPTION OF RUTH HOCK TAPED INTERVIEW – - VESEY STREET, GLENDALE, CALIFORNIA, MARCH 12, 1978, ONE TAPE, SIDE ONE. And Bill felt, in the early days, that everyone should – every group had the right to formulate it's own way of doing this particular thing, until it came about that we had a wandering, loving, lovable Jewish salesman who traveled all through the South. And he came back with stories about how they had one particular group that, well, they served beer during the evening, but nothing but beer! So that everything was perfectly fine, and of course, Bill thought it was hilarious, but nevertheless, he also thought that this kind of thing shouldn't go on. [The transcription comes from an 'agenda' site - The CD exists, it's available on Amazon - I couldn't verify the accuracy of the transcription] ===================== http://www.amazon.com/Grateful-Have-Been-There-Alcoholics/dp/0942421442 Grateful to Have Been There - Nell Wing, pp 11 There was only one mention of beer and had nothing to do with drinking at an A.A. meeting Local runor had it that my father indulged in a beer or two occasionally, but said rumor never reached the ears of our mother, who was firmly addicted to the Women's Christian Temperance Union (WCTU)! ===================== http://silkworth.net/mitchellk/articles/growth.html Growth of Central Offices - Mitchell K One story has it that a group responded to some questions posed to them by Bill W. by stating that they are all doing well. The members of that group were no longer drinking hard liquor and only drinking beer. They thought that this was a great accomplishment for hard-core alcoholics. ==================== http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/06/ff_alcoholics_anonymous/3/ Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don't Know How It Works By Brendan I. Koerner | June 23, 2010 | 12:00 am | Wired July 2010 AA boomed in the early 1940s, aided by a glowing Saturday Evening Post profile and the public admission by a Cleveland Indians catcher, Rollie Hemsley, that joining the organization had done wonders for his game. Wilson and the founding members were not quite prepared for the sudden success. "You had really crazy things going on," says William L. White, author of Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America. "Some AA groups were preparing to run AA hospitals, and there was this whole question of whether they should have paid AA missionaries. You even had some reports of AA groups drinking beers at their meetings." ==================== Slaying The Dragon - William White, pp135 Growth of A.A.groups was so rapid that there were inevitable concerns about dilution and distortion of the A.A. program. In his biography of Bill Wilson, RobertThomsen revealed a story of the flefgling A.A. group in Richmond, Virginia that held meetings to "get away from their wives and talk things over, but saw no reason not to drink beer at their meetings." [51]Thomsen 1975, pp319 (paperback, pp285) ==================== Bill W - Robert Thomsen, pp285 Nevertheless, as Bill never let himself forget, it wasn't the office mail that was spreading the message. It was the band of tireless recovered alkies who went on day after day and carried the word out to others. The number of these stalwarts in the early 1949s was incalculable, but several, perhaps because of their unorthodox methods, were close to Bill's heart. One of these was Irwin M. Irwin was a supersalesman of Venetian blinds. A 250-pounder, he possessed a personality, an energy and a gusto as monumental as his build. AA was his religion, and because of a certain fanaticism in his approach, there was some hesitafion in the beginning about giving him a list of prospects to contact. But since his territory covered Atlanta, Jacksonville and New Orleans, as well as Birmmgham and Indianapolis, and since there was a file filled with the names of Southerners who'd so far had no contact with AA, they knew they couldn't be choosy. They gave Irwin the list and sent him off. Reports started coming in within weeks. Irwin had been incorrigible. With his whirlwind technique he tracked down drunks in homes, taverns and offices, and once he'd got his hooks into them he never let go. When he had to move on to another town, he spent his nights shut up in a hotel room writing letters to all his converts, admonishing themand praising them. Across the southland, new groups began to spring up in the wake of irwin M, and if sometimes the questions of these newcomers indicated a confusion between AA and the Holy Rollers, it couldn't be helped. Bill hated to think what his atheist and agnostic friends would say if they saw these letters, but there was no denying they were coming from drunks who were sober. The South had been conquered again and much of the credit had to go to Irwin M. and others like him.* * From the beginning the southern drunks presented special problems. For example a group in Richmond, Virginia, believed in holding regular meetings, in getting away from their wives and talking things over, but saw no reason not to drink beer at their meetings. It took time and the dedicated work of one John W. to bring them around. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8309. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Names of the First One Hundred From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2012 12:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII what is the discrepancy between sobering up in New York or New Jersey? Is that because of the AA "office" changing locations? I have always heard of them referred to as the "New York" contingent. I have always heard Hank Parkhurst was the first member "Bill sobered up in New York" but the list below states Jersey. Would it be accurate to say Jim B was the 4ht member to sober up in new York I cannot tell you how thankful I am for this list!!!!!!!!!!!!! ctp -----Original Message----- From: John Barton Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 Subject: Names of the First One Hundred Fellow History Lovers, Below are the names of more than 125 "pioneers" who are believed to have been involved with the fellowship prior to, or up to and including, April of 1939. There are only two people listed whose last names have remained elusive. I believe this is the most comprehensive list of pioneering members produced to date. The sources for this list are varied and include AA literature, several different archives, personal letters, diaries, the work of other historians including published and unpublished manuscripts, other known lists such as The Cleveland Akron 220/226, Pioneers by Date of Sobriety, A New Light on the First Forty, The NJ Survey from Jan 1940,The Amos List, Who's Who in AA, etc. Sober dates have been determined as best as possible from the sources listed and taking into account that a person's "spiritual birthday" sometimes did not factor in a known relapse such as Dr Bob's date listed as May of 34 (see the comments for the Amos List SOB in The Golden Road) Are there many more names that should be on this list? I suspect the answer is yes! I have no info on new members in Akron for the first few months of 1939 and no doubt there were several, perhaps many! More research is required at a future date. Were there "One Hundred Men and Women" on or before the book was published April 10,1939? Bill wrote many many times to different people that there were and the available evidence seems to support this. Many historians and authors who counted less than 100 previously might not have had access to all the lists including the Amos List (for example compare to Pioneer by Date of Sobriety List). Others may have followed statements made by some pioneers like Jimmy Burwell who said Bill rounded up or exaggerated the claim. Was Jimmy well informed? Did he know who all the Akron/Cleveland members were? Not all of his recorded AA history (memoirs) have proved accurate. Perhaps we've been wrong all along in saying there were only 60 to 70? Was everyone on this list still sober or with the fellowship in April of 1939? Probably not but then as noted above there were probably many new members who were not properly documented or remain truly anonymous to us till this day. So perhaps there actually was "One Hundred Men and Women" who were staying sober by following the outlined program when the book came out. I would love to hear if anybody can contribute information on any of the less well know names on this list or any other sources which can be used to prove or disprove the validity or the placement of a name on this list. Does anyone believe a name has been missed? Many believe Ebby should have been included. People like Wes, Eddie, and Russ eventually sobered up, should they be included? Cebra later joined AA in Paris. How about Don, the Cohoes banker who was sober in 36 but then seems to have faded off? Do you have any reasonable evidence to support your claim? Please let me know your comments! PS If anyone can provide me the last name for Gordon S. or Brooke B. both believed to be from New York Group before 1939 I would be forever in your debt! 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD 9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT 10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron 11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron 12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron 13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY 14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland 15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland 16 Harry Latta Jul-36 Akron 17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron 18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron 19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron 20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron 21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ 22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ 23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron 24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron 25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland 26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron 27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron 28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron 30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland 31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland 32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron 33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron 34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron 36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron 37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ 38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron 39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron 40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron 41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron 42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ 43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron 44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron 45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron 46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron 47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY 48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron 49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron 50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron 51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron 52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron 53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron 54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron 55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron 56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron 57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron 58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron 59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron 60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY 61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland 62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland 63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY 64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY 65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT 66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY 67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY 68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron 69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY 70 Robert Taylor May38 NY 71 George Williams Jun-38 NY 72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ 73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA 74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY 75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI 76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY 77 James Scott Sep38 Akron 78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron 79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland 80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland 81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY 82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron 84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron 85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ 86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron 87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ 88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ 89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY 90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ 91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA 92 William Worton Feb39 NY 93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY 94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ 95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ 96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ 97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ 98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ 99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ 100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ Other Names - Shortly after April 1st or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard Brooke B Shep Cornell Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves Alec Johnson Ned Foote Gordon S. Russell Rathbone Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins Ernie Gerig Marty Mann John Reese Albert Golrick Harry Nash Grenville Curtis Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans Don McClean Oscar Vieths Rowland Jones Bill Cousins Sterling Parker Joe Mina Tom Pierce Jackie Williams IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8310. . . . . . . . . . . . Insider trading at AA Meeting From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2012 6:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Classic! Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - - SEC Charges Five Individuals for Insider Trading Tip From AA Meeting by Reese Darragh on March 14, 2012 http://compliancesearch.com/compliancex/insider-trading/sec-charges-five-ind ivid\ uals-for-insider-trading-tip-from-aa-meeting/ [46] The Securities and Exchange Commission brought civil insider-trading charges against five individuals who allegedly made more than $1.8 million profits based on a tip obtained through an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. In the filing, the regulator charged Timothy McGee, a financial adviser at Ameriprise Financial Services for making illegal stock trading of Philadelphia Consolidated Holding Corp after he received insider information of a pending merger between the company and Japanese firm Tokio Marine Holdings. A fellow AA member who is also a senior executive at the firm had confided with McGee during one of the support group meeting that the pressures over the merger were leading him to drink. Utilizing the information, McGee purchased the company’s stock in advance of the July 23, 2008 merger and gain $292,128 when the stock price of Philadelphia Consolidated increased by 64 percent on the news. Sharing the Wealth McGee also allegedly shared the tip with a co-worker, Michael Zirinsky, who purchased stock in his own trading accounts as well as his family. Per The Wall Street Journal, Zirinsky also shared the information with his father, Robert Zirinsky, and a friend in Hong Kong, Paolo Lam, who in turn shared the information with another friend, whose wife, Marianna Sze Wan Ho, also traded on the information. The SEC also named four Zirinsky relatives as relief defendants, seeking disgorgement of ill-gotten gains. They were not charged in the case. Altogether, the Zirinsky family made $562,673. Elsewhere in Hong Kong, a Reuters report confirmed that Lam and Ho have agreed to settle the charges with the SEC without admitting or denying the allegations. Lam made $837,975 while Ho gained $110,580 through their bets on the information. Lam and Ho will pay $1.2 million and $140,000 respectively to the SEC. The SEC is pursuing penalties against McGee, Michael Zirinsky and his father, Robert Zirinsky. AA Shield Unlike the common insider trading cases that often revolve around the breach of confidential duty between an employee and the company’s shareholders, the executive of Philadelphia Consolidated is not charged with any wrongdoing. The SEC’s suit on Tuesday said that McGee misused the information obtained from his relationship with the executive because the relationship was forged through AA meetings. AA’s twelfth tradition policy was designed to encourage participants to speak freely but anonymously. "By spring and early summer 2008, while the PHLY executive was participating in the merger negotiations and under significant pressure to ensure a successful sale, he and McGee had known each other for almost a decade and forged a close relationship in which they routinely shared confidences about each other's personal lives and problems impacting them professionally," the SEC said. Insider trading case stemmed from an AA meeting is a first for the regulator. I guess the AA program has to be restructured for members to eliminate certain details of their work from now on. _____________________________________________ (Reese Darragh is a contributing writer for CompliancEX and Wall Street Job Report. She is an experienced business news writer with expertise in macroeconomics topic, the financial industry, rules and regulations including the Dodd-Frank Act and the Sarbanes-Oxley Act as well as rules from other federal regulators. She has a Masters Degree in International Economics and Finance from Brandeis University.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8311. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Seiberling's differing accounts of Bill W's phone call From: Patrick Murphy . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2012 2:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I read that Henrietta Seiberling said in a letter that Bill Wilson's account of his calling her from the Mayflower was a fabrication on his part. Does anyone know what really happened that night of May 11th, 1935? -Paddy Mur - - - - A LETTER FROM HENRIETTA CITED BY MITCHELL K. Mitchell K. said that Henrietta Seiberling had accused Bill Wilson of lying in his account of how he first phoned her: http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blmitch3.htm Much of the story relating to the phone calls at the Mayflower has been labeled as false by one of the people who would have known about what actually transpired there. Henrietta Seiberling, the person who arranged the meeting between Bill and Dr. Bob wrote to an early AA member telling him her side of the story. In that undated (ca. Early 1950's) letter, Henrietta wrote the following about what Bill had written in the RHS Memorial Grapevine issue. "His accounts in the "Memoriam" Grapevine were made up - Telephone conversations, etc - Everything phony ..." - - - - WHAT BILL W. WROTE IN THE 1951 GRAPEVINE: Dr. Bob Memorial Edition of the AA Grapevine (1951) Message #1637 It was a Saturday in May, 1935. An ill-starred business venture had brought me to Akron where it immediately collapsed leaving me in a precarious state of sobriety. That afternoon I paced the lobby of Akron's Mayflower Hotel. As I peered at the gathering crowd in the bar, I became desperately frightened of a slip. It was the first severe temptation since my New York friend had laid before me what were to become the basic principles of AA, in November 1934. For the next six months I had felt utterly secure in my sobriety. But now there was no security; I felt alone, helpless. In the months before I had worked hard with other alcoholics. Or, rather, I had preached at them in a somewhat cocksure fashion. In my false assurance I felt I couldn't fall. But this time it was different. Something had to be done at once. Glancing at a Church Directory at the far end of the lobby, I selected the name of a clergyman at random. Over the phone I told him of my need to work with another alcoholic. Though I'd had no previous success with any of them I suddenly realized how such work had kept me free from desire. The clergyman gave me a list of ten names. Some of these people, he was sure, would refer me a case in need of help. Almost running to my room, I seized the phone. But my enthusiasm soon ebbed. Not a person in the first nine called could, or would, suggest anything to meet my urgency. One uncalled name still stood at the end of my list - Henrietta S. Somehow I couldn't muster courage to lift the phone. But after one more look into the bar downstairs something said to me, "You'd better." To my astonishment a warm Southern voice floated in over the wire. Declaring herself no alcoholic, Henrietta nonetheless insisted that she understood. Would I come to her home at once? Because she had been enabled to face and transcend other calamities, she certainly did understand mine. She was to become a vital link to those fantastic events which were presently to gather around the birth and development of our AA society. Of all names the obliging Rector had given me, she was the only one who cared enough. I would here like to record our timeless gratitude. Straightway she pictured the plight of Dr. Bob and Anne. Suiting action to her word, she called their house. As Anne answered, Henrietta described me as a sobered alcoholic from New York who, she felt sure, could help Bob. The good doctor had seemingly exhausted all medical and spiritual remedies for his condition. Then Anne replied, "What you say, Henrietta, is terribly interesting. But I am afraid we can't do anything now. Being Mother's Day, my dear boy has just brought in a fine potted plant. The pot is on the table but, alas, Bob is on the floor. Could we try to make it tomorrow?" Henrietta instantly issued a dinner invitation for the following day. At five o'clock next afternoon, Anne and Dr. Bob stood at Henrietta's door. She discreetly whisked Bob and me off to the library. - - - - WHAT HENRIETTA SAID IN THE TAPE RECORDING which was played at the 1971 Founders Day in Akron, Ohio Message #138 Henrietta Sieberling on A.A.'s beginnings, supplied by Congressman John Seiberling http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/138 Transcript Of Remarks by Henrietta B. Seiberling: Bill, when he was in a hotel in Akron and down to a few dollars and owed his bill after his business venture fell through, looked at the cocktail room and was tempted and thought, "Well, I'll just go in there and get drunk and forget it all, and that will be the end of it." Instead, having been sober five months in the Oxford Group, he said a prayer. He got the guidance to look in a ministers directory, and a strange thing happened. He just looked in there, and he put his finger on one name: Tunks. And that was no coincidence, because Dr. Tunks was Mr. Harvey Firestone's minister, and Mr. Firestone had brought 60 of the Oxford Group people down there for 10 days out of gratitude for helping his son, who drank too much. His son had quit for a year and a half or so. Out of the act of gratitude of this one father, this whole chain started. So Bill called Dr. Tunks, and Dr. Tunks gave him a list of names. One of them was Norman Sheppard, who was a close friend of mine and knew what I was trying to do for Bob. Norman said, "I have to go to New York tonight but you can call Henrietta Seiberling." When he told the story, Bill shortened it by just saying that he called Dr. Tunks, but I did not know Dr. Tunks. Bill said that he had his last nickel, and he thought, "Well, I'll call her." So I, who was desperate to help bob in something I didn't know much about, was ready. Bill called, and I will never forget what he said: "I'm from the Oxford Group and I'm a Rum Hound." Those were his words. I thought, "This is really manna from Heaven." And I said, "You come right out here." And my thought was to put those two men together. Bill, looking back, thought he was out to help someone else. Actually, he was out to get help for himself, no thought of helping anyone else, because he was desperate. But that is the way that God helps us if we let God direct our lives. And so he came out to my house, and he stayed for dinner. And I told him to come to church with me next morning and I would get Bob, which I did. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8312. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets From: last_town . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2012 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII First, Glenn thanks so much for posting this. I am a huge fan of Kurtz's Not-God, and appreciate his historical insight. With that said, I was hoping there might be a greater discussion of Kurtz's contention that the phrase 'You're only as sick as your secrets' would have been anathema to the founders, as he states in No. 9 "Spirituality and Recovery." There is an earlier discussion of the origins of this phrase where it is attributed to Maurer, but only a brief mention and it's from 2007. Of course in present-day AA, anything not in the first 164 pages is highly suspect, but I have never understood this as a call to publicly confess, but rather as a call for rigorous honesty in working the steps. Further, to me, it seems reminiscent of the idea in a Member's Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous that part of the reasoning of the 4th and 5th steps was in dealing with the alcoholics' guilt. Anyway, those are my thoughts, I would love to hear anyone else's. L ____________________________________ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > See http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html > > THE LAST FOUR ARTICLES CAN NOW ALSO BE DOWNLOADED: > > 9. Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey > http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf > > 10. Whatever Happened to Twelve-Step Programs? > http://hindsfoot.org/tcek10.pdf > > 11. Why A.A. Works: The Intellectual Significance of Alcoholics Anonymous > http://hindsfoot.org/tcek11.pdf > > 12. Here's to Spuds MacKenzie! > http://hindsfoot.org/tcek12.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8313. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan From: Margie Keith . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2012 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the early 70's we were still giving karo syrup and orange juice but had a doctor on stand by. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8314. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2012 8:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In his book, The New Group Therapy, Orval Hobart Mowrer (who never used his first name and generally wrote as O. H. Mowrer) said that the phrase was a distillation of his thinking as it developed over the years. Early in his career he was inspired by Harry Stack Sullivan and later by the "reality therapy" of William Glasser. Mowrer's methods were notoriously confrontational, resembling in some ways the popular "gestalt therapy" of the time. There is an interesting coincidence associated with the phrase about sins and secrets. Mowrer said that the inspiration came to him after reading the novel Miraculous Obsession by Lloyd C. Douglas. To me, Mowrer's concept does not seem particularly close to the Douglas one, which was a development of ideas found in the Gospels. However, Mowrer saw it all as one broad insight. Lloyd C. Douglas was an early admirer of Frank Buchman, going back to the days when both men worked in collegiate ministry. Douglas wrote an article about Buchman around 1914, for a YMCA publication. He also hosted an Oxford Group event in the early 1930s, when he was a minister in Canada. Although supportive, he probably was not a member of the Oxford Group. So the sins and secrets phrase has a nice provenance. It is also associated with the most confrontational branch of rehab philosophy. The legacy of O. H. Mowrer is strongest in substance abuse treatment programs for criminal offenders, but is also found in other old-school, high-confrontation, low-empathy environments. This may have something to do with Ernie's assessment. The concepts themselves are not altogether bad but they have developed some seamy associations. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "last_town" wrote: > > I was hoping there might be a greater discussion of Kurtz's contention that the phrase 'You're only as sick as your secrets' would have been anathema to the founders, as he states in No. 9 "Spirituality and Recovery." There is an earlier discussion of the origins of this phrase where it is attributed to Maurer [should be spelled Mowrer], but only a brief mention and it's from 2007. ____________________________________ For the entire text of THE COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ see http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html For chapt. 9. "Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey," see http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8315. . . . . . . . . . . . 13th Step as a spiritual level From: starshine1943 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2012 9:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the source where Bill W talks about a 13th step as a spiritual level? (NOT the idea of 13th stepping as trying to sexually seduce another AA member under the pretense of trying to help that other person with his or her program.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8316. . . . . . . . . . . . The Self-Hate Syndrome on p. 45 in the 12 and 12 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2012 1:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An interesting commentary from Sue C. (South Bend, Indiana) on the Self-Hate Syndrome or Self-Loathing Syndrome described in the paragraph on page 45 in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions: "If temperamentally we are on the depressive side, we are apt to be swamped with guilt and self-loathing. We wallow in this messy bog, often getting a misshapen and painful pleasure out of it. As we morbidly pursue this melancholy activity, we may sink to such a point of despair that nothing but oblivion looks possible as a solution. Here, of course, we have lost all perspective . . . . This is not a moral inventory at all; it is the very process by which the depressive has so often been led to the bottle and extinction." This is discussed in the section on the Self-Hate Syndrome about halfway down the page at http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html The article by Sue C. (South Bend, Indiana) "Escaping the Bog of Self-Loathing: Learning how to love ourselves again, using the Fourth Step to heal our shame, guilt, co-dependence, and depression" is then found at http://hindsfoot.org/selfhate.pdf Bill W's metaphor of the Bog of Self-Loathing may ultimately have been derived from a classical source. So also on that webpage, see the link to Glenn F. Chesnut, Dante's Swamp of Depression, a commentary on Dante's Inferno, Canto 7, which describes the river Styx and the Fifth Circle of Hell, where those are sent who are damned by their anger or depression: http://hindsfoot.org/danteswamp.pdf IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8317. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level From: joelford@pacbell.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2012 1:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "joelford@pacbell.net" dean@complanners.com> (dean at complanners.com) See paragraph 2 on "Clubs in AA" by Bill W. in the April 1947 AA Grapevine: "As the majority view, we might suppose that to be a blanket endorsement of clubs; we might think we couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them as a central AA institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery program without which the other Twelve Steps wouldn't work. At times club enthusiasts will act as though they really believed we could handle our alcohol problems by club life alone. They are apt to depend upon clubs rather than upon the AA program." _________________________________________________ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "starshine1943" wrote: Does anyone know the source where Bill W talks about a 13th step as a spiritual level? (NOT the idea of 13th stepping as trying to sexually seduce another AA member under the pretense of trying to help that other person with his or her program.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8318. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: John Mark Whalon, not John A. Whalon From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2012 1:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Les Cole and Glenn Chesnut - - - - From Les Cole: THE BRATTLEBORO RETREAT (not "Asylum") Tommy is correct on his point about the name of the Brattleboro institution. My family in Vermont, and other natives, called it a "retreat". It is where alcoholics Vermonters were sent under court order, but others with mental problems also went there. Local folks usually just referred to it as "Brattleboro". If Magistrate Collin Graves had not given Ebby's custody over to friends Hazard, Graves, and Cornell, he would have been incarcerated in the Brattleboro facility. JOHN MARK WHALON (not "John A. Whalon") Tommy's second discussion about Mark Whalon is correct. During research for my recent book, I found the record of Mark's birth in the East Dorset town records. It shows his name as John Mark Whalon. The full page of this record of births that month, is on page 136 of my book http://www.LesCole-AA.com I did not look for Mark's grave when I was researching up there. Les Cole _____________________________________________ THREE QUESTIONS FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR: JAX760 wrote: "Mark" Whalon is really John Mark Whalon. Mark was his middle name according to Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson House. John Mark Whalon is buried in a cemetery on the mountain, northeast of the Wilson House. But then the WIKIPEDIA article on him gives the name as "Mark A" instead of "John Mark": "Mark A Whalon (1886 - 1956) was an Irish-American author. Whalon was close friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and said to be a close influence on Wilson in his later life." 1. "IRISH-AMERICAN" Where does the Wikipedia article (which gets repeated over and over verbatim on the internet) get the idea that Whalon was "Irish American"? An Irishman in that part of Vermont at that period of history? 'Tis possible, but do we have any information about how Irish Whalon might have been? Was he born in Ireland, like Sister Ignatia, or was he born in the United States, like Father Dowling? Even in Dowling's case, I think we can say that the Irish tradition was still living, given the nature of the strongly demarked ethnic neighborhoods in St. Louis when he was growing up. But how about Mark Whalon? Was he a major "New England Yankee" influence on the young Bill Wilson, as is suggested in the books that are being written now about Bill W., or was he in fact one of the earliest of the many Roman Catholic influences which surrounded Bill Wilson all his life? 2. "JOHN A. WHALON" in ANCESTRY.COM REPORT: http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=USFedCen&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSA V=0&\ msT=1&gss=ms_f-80&gsfn=Cliff&gsln=Whalon [47] 1930 United States Federal Census Name: Kathleen C Whalon, birth: abt 1898 Spouse: Mark A Whalon Residence: 1930 - city, Bennington, Vermont East Dorset and Bennington are both in Vermont, but they're at least forty miles apart. Did some careless investigator look in the census reports for someone from Vermont named Mark Whalon, find this particular "Mark A. Whalon" in Bennington, and then all-too-quickly assume that this was the same person as the rural mail deliveryman whom Bill Wilson knew? So we might inquire further, for starters, to see if our Mark Whalon had a wife named Kathleen. ================================================ JARED LOBDELL, PLEASE COME AND HELP US OUT HERE ================================================ (And while we're at it, someone might check and see if the body of the unfortunate artist named Jeanne is in fact buried "beneath the sour apple tree in my family buryin' ground right 'long side of my four regular wives and some mail-order ones." If there are a bunch of Mark Whalon's wives and girlfriends buried in the Whalon family cemetery, this can be ascertained by any proper historian, by simply going there and reading the names and other info on the tombstones.) 3. CLOSE INFLUENCE ON WILSON IN HIS LATER LIFE: The Wikipedia article gets repeated over and over, absolutely verbatim, all over the internet. It says "Mark A Whalon (1886 - 1956) was an Irish-American author. Whalon was close friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and said to be a close influence on Wilson in his later life." We not only have the problem of the middle initial A, and the question of how Irish he really was -- What is with the claim in the wikipedia article that Mark was "said to be a close influence on Wilson in his later life." This phrasing suggests that Bill Wilson, even during the 1940's, 50's, and 60's, was still checking back with his old friend Mark Whalon to see how he ought to set up the Twelve Traditions, the system of delegates meeting in an annual general service conference, whether he should keep on taking LSD, and all of these other hot topics. I would not be complaining about this Wikipedia article were it not for the fact that this is close to the only thing I can find on the internet anywhere about Mark Whalon, which means that it is inevitably going to get copied into our AA histories, with the assumption that this is accepted and proven historical fact. Could we please get a short paragraph written, that we can post in the AAHistoryLovers, which gives a brief biographical sketch of Mark Whalon the rural mail deliveryman, which we can guarantee is accurate? Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8319. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill's fifle From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2012 1:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yesterday I was re-reading Robert Thomsen's book, "BILL W." and saw on page 24, a discussion of Bill, as a child, talking with his older neighbor friend, Bill Landon, about Civil War experiences. Thomsen describes how Landon had trained Bill how to shoot,and persuaded the Griffth's to buy Bill a "25-20 Remington". Les Coleelsietwo@msn.com Colorado IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8320. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson Documentary Film From: bill@athenararebooks.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2012 9:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The new documentary on the life of Bill Wilson (entitled Bill W.) was shown three times this past week at the Cleveland International Film Festival, and I was able to attend the first two screenings. The first showing was in Akron on Monday night followed by viewings on Tuesday & Wednesday in downtown Cleveland, at the main venue for the festival. The theater in Akron was, as would be expected, sold out and the audience gave the movie very positive reviews during the Q&A session that followed. These questions were fielded by Kevin Hanlon and Dan Carracino (the movie's producers/directors) and touched on a wide range of AA history topics (with a not-unexpected focus on Dr. Bob's part in the story). The Tuesday afternoon showing in Cleveland was oversubscribed, so another theater was opened up for a dual-showing to accommodate the crowd. The Q&A that followed was a panel discussion with five participants, including a doctor from a local treatment center. This one was much shorter than the previous night, and covered a more wide-ranging list of topics, including questions about A.A.'s role in society and the world of the treatment industry. To my mind, the seamless blending of film clips, photos, period recordings and current interviews does an outstanding job of detailing and explaining the four general periods in Wilson's life: *His first 22 years (no booze) *His 17-year career as a drunk *The 21 years covering the founding of AA and his guidance during its growth up until 1955 *The final 15 years of Bill's life that followed his "turning AA over" to the fellowship in 1955 Plans are currently being made for limited-engagement theatrical runs in several major U.S. cities, including New York City and Los Angeles sometime in May (details to follow when available). A radio interview with Kevin and Dan discussing the film can be heard at: http://www.wksu.org/news/story/31179 Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8321. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson Documentary Film From: Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2012 7:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know if the documentary will be subtitled in French? -- William D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8322. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Bill Wilson Documentary Film From: David Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/1/2012 6:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have seen a private screening. Somehow I doubt it. But I have been wrong before. The film is so uplifting - - - - Bill william.demeulenaere@gmail.com> wrote: Does anyone know if the documentary will be subtitled in French? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8323. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Archived AAHL messages 2002, 2003, and 2004 now available From: Roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2012 9:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Great new service! Thanks much. I downloaded easily and was wondering if the replies to posts were included. Went to message 212 before I found that anyone had replied with a question or comment. The question was not included in the download (post regarding AA starting in Ireland). I also noted that post 216 followed 212 and on AAHistoryLovers indeed posts 213-215 are missing or not used. Do you know why or what they were if used? - - - - Reply from Glenn Chesnut (about the only parts I know anything about): There are lots of missing/deleted messages in the numbered sequence of AAHistoryLovers messages which are posted online at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages Numbers 18, 115, 120, 141-155, 157, 159-160, 168-173, 175-176, 206-208, 210-211, 213-215, 217, 219-225, 228, etc. When the AAHistoryBuffs had to be discontinued, two people carried out the laborious task of transferring messages over to the newly formed AAHistoryLovers: Nancy Olson and Fiona over in Ireland. Nancy is dead, so you would have to ask Fiona what she remembers from way back then. There are also lots of messages which were deleted in the original AAHistoryBuffs, see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/messages There does not seem to be any easily detectable pattern to the correspondence between the number of the original message in the aahbuffs and the number of the copy in the aahl. For example: aahl 204 = aahbuffs 1017 aahl 205 = aahbuffs 1001 aahl 206-208 missing/deleted aahl 209 = aahbuffs 186 aahl 212 = aahbuffs 229 aahl 213-215 missing/deleted aahl 216 = aahbuffs 258 aahl 217 missing/deleted aahl218 -- doesn't seem to match anything in aahbuffs aahl 219-225 missing/deleted aahl 226 = aahbuffs 574 aahl 227 = aahbuffs 601 It is, alas, unfortunately the case that in the Yahoo group system, once a posted message has been deleted, there is no way to undelete it and recover it again. Fiona, did Nancy seem to have any rules or methods for deciding which messages to dump, and the order in which to copy the remainder? Although I was not directly involved in it, my understanding is that the procedure that was used for cleaning up the message board was quite simple and easy to understand: extraneous "chatty" messages that had no intrinsic historical content were deleted, along with things like guesses that were later shown to be dead wrong (that's why we try to avoid posting things now that are based on member opinion, speculation, or especially "someone told me" or "an oldtimer told me" messages, which nearly always turn out to be wrong!). But every message was left in place when it contained any kind of important historical material that had stood up to further inquiry. Glenn Chesnut - - - - ORIGINAL MESSAGE --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote: > > All the messages from the AAHistoryLovers's first ten years (2002-2011) have now been collected into one huge computer database. The Hindsfoot site will be posting the first drafts (as they become available) of the messages as they are edited into a more readable fashion as Microsoft Word DOCX documents. > > See, on the Hindsfoot site, A.A. Historical Materials Part 2 at > > http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html > > which gives a link near the top of the page to the specific webpage on this topic: > > http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html > > The first three years of the group's messages are now available for downloading: > > AA History Lovers for 2002, Messages 1-751 > http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs02.docx > > AA History Lovers for 2003, Messages 753- 1574 > http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs03.docx > > AA History Lovers for 2004, Messages 1575-2117 > http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs04.docx IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8324. . . . . . . . . . . . Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/3/2012 7:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Kevin Kaufmann, "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960," Ph.D. thesis at Loyola University in Chicago, August 2011. Google search under the title "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960" (it's a .pdf document) or copy & paste the following link: http://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1072&context=luc_diss&s [48] ei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q% 3Drigorous%2520honesty%2520a%2520cultural%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26sqi%3D2% 26ved%3D0CCUQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fecommons.luc.edu%252Fcgi%252Fvi ewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1072%2526context%253Dluc_diss%26ei%3Det16T4mQO ITw0gGp8fiUBg%26usg%3DAFQjCNGhz2v7ikaI0f-odR3uXVOPuKNdxA%26cad%3Drjt#search= %22rigorous%20honesty%20cultural%22 Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8325. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson Documentary Film: French subtitles possible? From: bill@athenararebooks.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/3/2012 11:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I asked one of the two producer/directors about French subtitles on "Bill W." and he replied that "right now, we are focused on the U.S. distribution of the film, including some form of theatrical release, followed by a DVD later this year. We certainly have plans for foreign and overseas distribution, but that will only come after we have completed our American distribution plan. If everything goes according to schedule, we will begin work on subtitling the film for international release sometime later this year." --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" wrote: > > Does anyone know if the documentary will be subtitled in French? > > -- > William D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8326. . . . . . . . . . . . Repository for AAHistoryLovers documents From: Moderator AAHistoryLovers . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2012 10:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wow, great! Thank you very much! -- Glenn C., Moderator, AAHistoryLovers - - - - Laurence Holbrook's website http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/ now has a repository for documents associated with the AA History Lover's Group: http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/ - - - - TO CONTACT HIM: email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) - - - - DOCUMENTS PRESENTLY POSTED: Click here for the DropCaps font examples Click here for the Stonebraker's drafts of Bill's story Click here to open Joe & Charlie's talk on step 3 (MS Word) Click here to open Joe & Charlie's talk on step 3 (PDF Format) Click here to see Handout 1 - definitions Click here to see Handout 2 - basic instincts IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8327. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout From: Laurence Holbrook . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2012 7:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Larry Holbrook and Bill Lash - - - - "Laurence Holbrook" email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) I have not participated in a Joe & Charlie Big Book study group - I understand it is a 'scripted' study - the MS Word version has two images in it, one of some definitions, the other is about self instincts - I added 4 links to this index - one is MS Word format of Joe & Charlie on Step 3, another is a PDF format of the same material - the last two are images that I copied from the MS Word document - clicking those links should open those files in a web browser - you could also RIGHT click the links and select "Save Target As ..." which will save copy on one's local hard drive - http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/ I hope this is helpful - Larry Holbrook ----------------------- Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com (410) 802-3099 Current Location: 2833 Farm Road 350 Livingston, Texas 77351 Polk County Central Standard Time L N 030° 42' 01.4" Lo W 094° 59' 55.7" Elevation 105' Permanent Address (Mail/Parcels): Laurence Holbrook 161 Rainbow Drive #6183 Livingston, Texas 77399-1061 - - - - From: Bill Lash barefootbill@optonline.net> (barefootbill at optonline.net) Good morning. The Joe & Charlie Big Book Study handouts (and many other 12 Step guides & exercises) can be found by going to www.justloveaudio.com & clicking on "free resources". The Joe & Charlie handouts can be found in "free resources" under "assorted" & scrolling all the way down to the bottom. Peace. Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8328. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2012 12:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The list indicates where people lived or were from at the time, not necessarily where they sobered up. Prior to the publication of the Big Book in April 1939, you could only have attended meetings at Bill's house in Brooklyn or the weekly Oxford Group meeting at the Williams' house in Akron. (The first meeting which was held in Cleveland started after the Big Book was published, on May 11, 1939 and the first New Jersey meeting in Upper Montclair on May 14th 1939.) I think the point I was originally trying to make was that many of the "NY AA's" were actually New Jerseyans. Although Burwell is listed for NY he actually bounced around. Both before and after his relapse in mid 1938 he was living with the Parkurst's in Upper Montclair, NJ which is where he first met Bill according to Merton's notes. After his relapse in June of 38 he stayed in NJ for almost a year as he worked for Stain-Ox (the auto polish affiliate of Honor Dealers) We may have to change Jimmy to NJ - of course later he ended up in Phili and helped start that group as well as Camden NJ in May of 1940, one year to the date of the first meeting in NJ on May 14th. Shakey Mike might be able to supply some more info on Jimmy and his entrance into AA. Warm regards, John Barton --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Parkhurst" wrote: > > what is the discrepancy between sobering up in New York or New Jersey? > Is that because of the AA "office" changing locations? I have always heard of them referred to as the "New York" contingent. > > I have always heard Hank Parkhurst was the first member "Bill sobered up in New York" but the list below states Jersey. > > Would it be accurate to say Jim B was the 4ht member to sober up in new York > > I cannot tell you how thankful I am for this list!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > ctp > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Barton > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 > Subject: Names of the First One Hundred > > Fellow History Lovers, > > Below are the names of more than 125 "pioneers" who are believed to have > been involved with the fellowship prior to, or up to and including, April of > 1939. There are only two people listed whose last names have remained > elusive. I believe this is the most comprehensive list of pioneering members > produced to date. The sources for this list are varied and include AA > literature, several different archives, personal letters, diaries, the work > of other historians including published and unpublished manuscripts, other > known lists such as The Cleveland Akron 220/226, Pioneers by Date of > Sobriety, A New Light on the First Forty, The NJ Survey from Jan 1940,The > Amos List, Who's Who in AA, etc. Sober dates have been determined as best as > possible from the sources listed and taking into account that a person's > "spiritual birthday" sometimes did not factor in a known relapse such as Dr > Bob's date listed as May of 34 (see the comments for the Amos List SOB in > The Golden Road) > > Are there many more names that should be on this list? I suspect the answer > is yes! I have no info on new members in Akron for the first few months of > 1939 and no doubt there were several, perhaps many! More research is > required at a future date. > > Were there "One Hundred Men and Women" on or before the book was published > April 10,1939? Bill wrote many many times to different people that there > were and the available evidence seems to support this. Many historians and > authors who counted less than 100 previously might not have had access to > all the lists including the Amos List (for example compare to Pioneer by > Date of Sobriety List). Others may have followed statements made by some > pioneers like Jimmy Burwell who said Bill rounded up or exaggerated the > claim. Was Jimmy well informed? Did he know who all the Akron/Cleveland > members were? Not all of his recorded AA history (memoirs) have proved > accurate. Perhaps we've been wrong all along in saying there were only 60 to > 70? Was everyone on this list still sober or with the fellowship in April of > 1939? Probably not but then as noted above there were probably many new > members who were not properly documented or remain truly anonymous to us > till this day. So perhaps there actually was "One Hundred Men and Women" who > were staying sober by following the outlined program when the book came out. > > I would love to hear if anybody can contribute information on any of the > less well know names on this list or any other sources which can be used to > prove or disprove the validity or the placement of a name on this list. Does > anyone believe a name has been missed? Many believe Ebby should have been > included. People like Wes, Eddie, and Russ eventually sobered up, should > they be included? Cebra later joined AA in Paris. How about Don, the Cohoes > banker who was sober in 36 but then seems to have faded off? Do you have any > reasonable evidence to support your claim? Please let me know your comments! > > PS If anyone can provide me the last name for Gordon S. or Brooke B. both > believed to be from New York Group before 1939 I would be forever in your > debt! > > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron > 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron > 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ > 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron > 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron > 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD > 9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT > 10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron > 11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron > 12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron > 13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY > 14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland > 15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland > 16 Harry Latta Jul-36 Akron > 17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron > 18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron > 19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron > 20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron > 21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ > 22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ > 23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron > 24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron > 25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland > 26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron > 27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron > 28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron > 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron > 30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland > 31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland > 32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron > 33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron > 34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ > 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron > 36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron > 37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ > 38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron > 39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron > 40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron > 41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron > 42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ > 43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron > 44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron > 45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron > 46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron > 47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY > 48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron > 49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron > 50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron > 51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron > 52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron > 53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron > 54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron > 55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron > 56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron > 57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron > 58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron > 59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron > 60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY > 61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland > 62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland > 63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY > 64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY > 65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT > 66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY > 67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY > 68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron > 69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY > 70 Robert Taylor May38 NY > 71 George Williams Jun-38 NY > 72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ > 73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA > 74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY > 75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI > 76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY > 77 James Scott Sep38 Akron > 78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron > 79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland > 80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland > 81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY > 82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland > 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron > 84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron > 85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ > 86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron > 87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ > 88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ > 89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY > 90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ > 91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA > 92 William Worton Feb39 NY > 93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY > 94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ > 95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ > 96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ > 97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ > 98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ > 99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ > 100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ > > Other Names - Shortly after April 1st or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers > Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard > Brooke B Shep Cornell > Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves > Alec Johnson Ned Foote > Gordon S. Russell Rathbone > Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins > Ernie Gerig Marty Mann > John Reese Albert Golrick > Harry Nash Grenville Curtis > Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans > Don McClean Oscar Vieths > Rowland Jones Bill Cousins > Sterling Parker Joe Mina > Tom Pierce Jackie Williams > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8329. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2012 1:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "In one western city and its environs" refers to Akron and the surrounding areas including Cleveland. See the 1st edition stories of Tom and Maybelle Lucas (My Wife and I) and Joe Doppler (The European Drinker) talking about 70 people at the weekly meeting. There was no "Cleveland Group" before May 11th 1939. Stories written and published in the OM and the Big book (1st ed.) published April 10, 1939. Bill kind of misspoke in AA comes of age and the foreword to the 2nd edition when he said there was a third group in Cleveland in 1937. What actually occurred is that the "Clevelanders" began coming to Akron in the summer of 1936 when Joe Doppler and Bob Oviatt joined up. Several more were added in 1937 but they all drove up to Akron for the weekly Oxford Group meeting at the Williams'. Excerpt below from Bill's recounting of the movement's history to the trustees via letter in late 1940. "When this book appeared in April of last year there were approximately 100 A.A. members. Two thirds of them were at Akron, Ohio, or nearby communities in the northern part of that state. Most of the remainder were in or near New York City and a few others were scattered along the Atlantic Seaboard. The work had then been in existence over four years." God Bless John Barton ________________________________ From: buckjohnson41686 buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 8:38 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) From: buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com> (buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com) SEE MESSAGE 6882, Sun Sep 19, 2010: Already 80 people in the Cleveland group in Spring 1939? Geoff Smith noted that in Bill's story, it mentions that "in a western town there are thousands of members," yet when the book was written there were fewer than 100 alcoholics total. Was this added to Bill's story later? I don't think so, as it's in my 1st edition. What is the explanation for this mismatch? Glenn Chesnut responded: I think Geoff is referring to the passage found on pp. 15-16 in the current (4th) edition: "In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our families. We meet frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship they seek. At these informal gatherings one may often see from 50 to 200 persons. We are growing in numbers and power." According to my notes, the "western city" was Cleveland, and in the second printing of the 1st edition, among the changes made: On page 25 line 23, 80 of us was changed to 500 of us. And on page 25 line 26, 40-80 persons was changed to 50-200 persons. Later on, in the third printing of the 1st edition, on page 25 line 23, 500 of us was changed to 1000 of us. Is this the passage that you are asking about, Geoff? There is still the question of the Big Book's original statement that in 1939 there were 80 people in the Cleveland area (even if we count families as well as the alcoholics themselves), with 40 to 80 people attending "informal gatherings" there. Has this group ever looked at those numbers? Are they are all possible? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8330. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960 From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2012 11:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wow. This was a thesis statement and the title is typewritten as follows? "A CUTURAL HISTORY OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" No spellcheck needed to be a Dr? ___________________________________________ From: barefootbill@optonline.net Subject: Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960 Kevin Kaufmann, "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960," Ph.D. thesis at Loyola University in Chicago, August 2011. Google search under the title "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960" (it's a .pdf document) or copy & paste the following link: http://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1072&context=luc_diss&s [48] ei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q% 3Drigorous%2520honesty%2520a%2520cultural%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26sqi%3D2% 26ved%3D0CCUQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fecommons.luc.edu%252Fcgi%252Fvi ewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1072%2526context%253Dluc_diss%26ei%3Det16T4mQO ITw0gGp8fiUBg%26usg%3DAFQjCNGhz2v7ikaI0f-odR3uXVOPuKNdxA%26cad%3Drjt#search= %22rigorous%20honesty%20cultural%22 Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8331. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Beer served at AA meeting? From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2012 5:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This gave me a wonderful warm chuckle this morning. As I can recall one night, my grand-sponsor, John W, relating this story, about that beer drinking group. I can still remember him asking me once, on the night of my proud announcement of being sober for 3 months: "and Jon, how's that marijuana going for you?" LOL Of course, I was still determined to do what we laughingly referred to as "Jon's Marijuana Maintenance Program". That was my second attempt to stay sober without working the steps. I'm now on my third . . . . and this time I'm following the suggestions found in the Book and the 12x12. Seems it works better when I follow the directions. Jon Markle Raleigh, NC 9.9.82 On Mar 24, 2012, at 12:19 PM, hdmozart wrote: From the beginning the southern drunks presented special problems. For example a group in Richmond, Virginia, believed in holding regular meetings, in getting away from their wives and talking things over, but saw no reason not to drink beer at their meetings. It took time and the dedicated work of one John W. to bring them around. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8332. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2012 3:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This from the multilith version of the 1938 manuscript. Appears in Bill's story. "We commenced to make many fast friends and a fellowship has grown up among us of which it is a wonderful thing to feel a part. The joy of living we really have, even under pressure and difficulty. I have seen one hundred families set their feet in the path that really goes somewhere; have seem the most impossible domestic situations righted; feuds and bitterness of all sorts wiped out. I have seen men come out of asylums and resume a vital place in the lives of their families and communities. Business and professional men have regained their standing. There is scarcely any form of trouble and misery which has not been overcome among us. In one Western city and its environs there are eighty of us and our families. We meet frequently at our different homes, so that newcomers may find the fellowship they seek. At these informal gatherings one may often see from 40 to 80 persons. We are growing in numbers and power." _____________________________________________ > From: "B" > (kochbrian at hotmail.com) > > More information comes in. Here is Bill's story as it appeared in the first printing. > > "There is scarcely any form of human misadventure and misery which has not been > overcome among us. In a Western city and its environs, there are sixty of us and > our families. We often meet informally at our houses, so that newcomers may find > what they seek. Gatherings of twenty to sixty are common. We are growing in > numbers and power." - - - - > From: Dudley Dobinson > (DudleyDobinson at aol.com) > > Hi, The first printing on page 25 (Now 15) says 80 members and "At these informal > gatherings one may often see from 40 to 80 persons." On page 27 (Now 17) refers > to "One hundred men who were just as hopeless as Bill." Adjustments were made in > later printings. > > Dudley D. Birr Ireland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8333. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets From: Bryan S. Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2012 9:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I certainly heard "you're only as sick as your secrets" regularly when I was early in the program. When it was said publicly (i.e., in a meeting), it was a general statement directed at no one in particular, almost always in the context of discussing getting honest. When I heard it from my sponsor and a couple of old-timers who had taken me under their wings, it was initially directed to "Bryan, you have got to get honest with yourself," meaning I'd never get anywhere with my recovery until I got truly honest with myself. Subsequently, it was meant as "Bryan, you have to get honest with others," meaning things I kept totally secret and didn't share with anyone were going to end up eating me up inside. It was almost always one-on-one, although occasionally with my sponsor and two of the old-timers going out after a meeting for coffee (known as the 100 Year Club - I had about a year and the rest of them made it add up to 100 years; actually it was about 103). It really brings tears to my eye to think about those nights and what those men did for me. There was absolutely nothing too stupid for me to say or ask with them. I still hear it in meetings and occasionally use it myself. It helped me a lot. I never could have done the 4th and 5th Steps without having gotten with myself first. Admittedly, I can only evaluate it in the context of my own experience. Having said that, when you're really new, really green and really raw, you grab at anything that works. In my first month, I can remember one of the old-timers saying to me and a couple of guys with roughly the same amount of time, you only have to do 4 things: If it's not right don't do it, if it's not yours don't take it and if it's not true don't say it. He said if you do that and don't drink between meetings, you'll be off to a great start. Another one that's not in the BB or 12+12, but it worked for me. I have to wonder if it would have been an anathema to Bill and Dr. Bob, and the first 100. As I've listened to talks given by them, they stressed that getting honest was crucially important to getting sober and staying sober. And I believe it to be true - things that I live in denial of or stuff inside to hide them from other people will ultimately take me back out. Greetings to all from SE Arizona, Bryan Highway 92 Group Sierra Vista AZ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8334. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2012 6:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just wanted to point out very quickly that the Joe & Charlie Big Book Studies were NOT scripted. A transcript of one of their studies that was originally recorded on cassette is available online & can be also found at www.justloveaudio.com by clicking on “free resources” & then clicking on “assorted” & then scroll down to “Big Book Study (Joe & Charlie)”. That is where I think the Step 3 material is from that Larry is talking about. It is from a full transcript of a recording & is NOT a copy of a script that you may have imagined they read. Typing into a computer every word of the entire weekend presentation (eight 90-minute cassettes) is an extreme example of someone who had way too much free time. But it also shows the importance that someone gave to the Joe & Charlie Big Book Studies. I know these studies radically changed my life for the better. Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - - From: Laurence Holbrook Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 Subject: Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout I have not participated in a Joe & Charlie Big Book study group - I understand it is a 'scripted' study .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8335. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe and Charlie 4th Step Forms From: Nancys Cell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2012 8:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was privileged to attend numerous Big Book Seminars in Sacramento, California including the 20th and final one in 2005. Willie B., who presented the Steps from the Twelve and Twelve, was my sponsor for several years until her death, January 23, 2011. Charlie P. personally approved the the Fourth Step forms that I recreated on my computer and continue to share with other members. We use these forms for the Fourth Step during our weekly Book Study group in Lodi, California and I also use them with my AA babies. Since they were created in InDesign, which not everyone has, I saved the document in PDF format for your viewing and use. Please go to the document at http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/4th%20Step%20Inventory.pdf Thanks to Laurence Holbrook for creating the link on his website. Pass it on! Love in Service, Nancy Karvonen Galt, California 5/24/72 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8336. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2012 7:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Jon Markle, Sherry C. Hartsell, Woody in Akron, and Charley B ill - - - - From: Jon Markle jon.markle@mac.com> (jon.markle at mac.com) When working with someone who has been drinking large quantities of alcohol, they probably should have a medical detox, in a facility where they can be closely watched and treated if necessary. Detoxing off of alcohol can be very dangerous and sometimes deadly. It's dangerous for us to offer speculation and advice unless we are medically trained to do so. In the early days, I believe that most drunks were of the "hopeless" variety and the general consensus was to take your man to a hospital if available, for detox. Today, not every drunk needs to be detoxed because our "bottom" has been raised. Medical detox has been abused by some of "us" because it's an easy way to get through a hang over. Drugs are the new alcohol. There seems to be some concern in the recovery community and among some professionals about the wisdom of using too many drugs, especially for the "revolving door" alcoholics -- meaning they are now addicts in addition to being alcoholics. I know that some current models of recovery type "houses" use a step up method, where the client is assessed as to whether they need medical detox, or can go through a "social detox" without medication, but under observation. Jon Markle Raleigh, NC 9.9.82 - - - - From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" hartsell@etex.net> (hartsell at etex.net) Yep, I got karo syrup over ice w/lemon squeezed into it, glass after glass for first 2-3 days! - - - - From: Robt Woodson wdywdsn@sbcglobal.net> (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) Re: Karo and OJ ... I made and served many such "cocktails" which included stirred in brown sugar and a whipped raw egg for protein as a long term kitchen trustee in the local county jail during that period ... as I remember it, the real deal had sometimes included a shot of liquor to begin with ... to ease the shakes. They were "swimming" on cold tile and concrete floors in the "drunk tank" there ... no doctors. From the "not so fond" memories deparyment, Woody in Akron - - - - From: Charley B ill charley92845@gmail.com> (charley92845 at gmail.com) Here in Southern California, in the early '70s I was visited by a task force from the Icebreakers Group and the Dry Dock Group.They arranged for 24/7 coverage in our little house and always had that abominable hot warm orange juice and syrup. As far as I kmow, no dedicated medical support, but we all had basic medical in the military. - - - - ORIGINAL MESSAGES WERE From: Margie Keith Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 Subject: Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan In the early 70's we were still giving karo syrup and orange juice but had a doctor on stand by. - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com on Mar 22, 2012: It used to be said that the first 36 hours of not drinking were the most dangerous for the alcoholic that is being treated in recovering from the effects of alcohol. So the medical people were supposed to sedate the alcoholic during this time to reduce the risk of his dying. I think we should not lose sight of this if we are working with someone with acute alcoholism. - - - - With reference to Bill Swegan's scientific journal article on the advantages to using tranquillizers to help alcoholics through early detox instead of the substances like barbiturates (as in the case of Dr. Bob) and paraldehyde, that were used in earlier AA practice. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8337. . . . . . . . . . . . Did anyone tape or film the Grapevine play In Our Own Words? From: Masterman . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2012 7:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was a sponsee of Sybil Corwin. My name is Matt, and I wanted to ask, did anyone tape or film the Grapevine play "In Our Own Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous"? I'm sure Sybil would have loved it. When she was doing her 12 year service as the executive secretary of the Central Office in LA she said they ordered hundreds of the pamphlets explaining the NEW 12 traditions that AA did not have when she got sober in 1941 so they used to go around and they did a "Traditions Play" which you can get a copy of from the NY Office (I'm sure you all know that) so they went around to all the meetings (there was only one in LA at her first meeting 3/21/1941, and had grown to over a hundred and present day over 2000 in the LA area alone. Back then, if you started a meeting you owned it. They got furious at Tex Adams, Sybil's brother who started the "hole in the ground" meeting in huntington park. He told them it was a long rough drive to downtown LA from his home (no freeways back then, no route 10, no route 5). They told him they had hired a lawyer and were going to incorporate AA in Los Angeles and he could consider himself excommunicated from the group. He laughed at them and told them that they might as well try to incorporate a sunrise and predicted that there would be hundreds of groups popping up all over southern California. Anyway if anyone has a tape of the Grapevine Play I would be so appreciative. If you'd like to here about Sybil's sponsee Irma Livoni who got kicked out of AA you can read about it (too long to post here) at http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-irma_livoni.html also a picture of my wonderful Sybil, she and I were on her porch, talking about AA. Bob was going to color her hair that day so she was wearing her "my grey is showing" cap. Much AA love to you all, Matt pupmasters@yahoo.com --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jaxena77" wrote: > > To Our Friends and Supporters in the AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group, > > We are very excited to announce that on Saturday, June 25, 2011, In Our Own Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous will be performed in Los Angeles County for the very first time. We are especially honored for this opportunity to tell Sybil Corwin's story in her hometown, alongside the stories of Mort Joseph, Cliff Walker, Frank Randall, June G and the many pioneering members of AA in Southern California. The AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group was vital in the researching and writing of this documentary style play. > > Our shows in Northern California and Texas have sold out to standing room only audiences for the past two years. Please SAVE THE DATE and spread the word to anyone you know in Southern California. We need your help to PASS IT ON! > > In Love and Service, > Jackie B. > > =============================================== > FULL COLOR FLYER WITH PHOTOS: > http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771229/0076d7232a/TEST/TEST/ > =============================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8338. . . . . . . . . . . . TEMPORARY: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? From: marathonmanric . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/3/2012 8:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mr Moderator, I replied to this post stating that I grew up my first ten years in AA, in Miami, and explained what I heard and know of the Miami Heart Institute where Bill Wilson passed. I received an email, out of the group, of one who wanted to know a bit more that I could share. I've lost or have accidently deleted the email address and wonder if I might post a call, if that someone sees it, they can re-email me. Thank you, Ric Hi, I'm Ric, a happy and grateful alcoholic, When this thread was active, I received a personal reply which I have since lost. If you contacted me concerning The Miami Heart Institute and Bill W's passing, please reply again so that I may continue our conversation. Thank you, Ric in Salinas, Ca --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote: > > I have seen some obits for bill and they mention a Miami Florida Hospital. Does anyone know which hospital it was? Thanks to all my fellow history buffs. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8339. . . . . . . . . . . . John Mark Whalon From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2012 12:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: J. Lobdell jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) John Mark Whalon was b. Dorset VT June 16 1886 [WW2 Draft Card], unmarried in 1942. Inducted April 21 1918 attended School of Aerial Photography overseas Oct 15 1918 to Feb 18 1919 In 1918 a surveyor employed by William Griffith and unmarried [WW1 Draft Card] The 1927 birth certificate of Cornelius Bayard Whalon shows father John Mark Whalon, mother Kathleen Isabel Whalon: the two were married in Canada. His Sept 21 1956 obituary gives his birth as August 6, 1886 [error], his surviving son as Lawrence [no surviving widow], but his name is indeed John Mark Whalon. The 1930 Mark A Whalon, wife Kathleen, children Lawrence and Cornelius, is clearly [an error for] our John Mark Whalon. He appears as John M. in the 1900 Census, with his father William C. [b. 1855] having both parents born in Ireland and his mother Rose [Kelleher] [b. 1862] having both parents born in Ireland. -- Jared IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8340. . . . . . . . . . . . More on Mark Whalon From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2012 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The US Census for 1910 shows the following: John M Whalon Age 23 Male White American Est Birth year 1887 Birth location: Dorset, Bennington,VT Relation to Head: Son Head of household: William C. Other people in household: William Whalon: 56 Yrs, Male, Father Rose Whalon: 48 yrs, Female, Mother William Whalon: 27 yrs, Male, Sibling Mary Whalon: 18 yrs, Female Father's First Name: William C. Father's Last Name: Whalon Father's Birthplace: Vermont Mother's First Name: Rose K. Mother's Birthplace: Scotland Marital Status: Single Sheet: ASheet number: 12 Collection: 1910 U.S. Federal Population Census IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8341. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2012 5:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Members I do not see the reference to a "spiritual level" in the paragraph below. I would like to view this entire article by Bill if anyone has a link. Is Bill referring to AA clubs as in "Alano" clubs and the like? In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst -----Original Message----- From: joelford@pacbell.net Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 Subject: Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level See paragraph 2 on "Clubs in AA" by Bill W. in the April 1947 AA Grapevine: "As the majority view, we might suppose that to be a blanket endorsement of clubs; we might think we couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them as a central AA institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery program without which the other Twelve Steps wouldn't work. At times club enthusiasts will act as though they really believed we could handle our alcohol problems by club life alone. They are apt to depend upon clubs rather than upon the AA program." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8342. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2012 3:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 2005 Holiday (Christmas) issue of Box 4-5-9, the AA General Service Office newsletter, gave an account of requests for advice about study guides from members and groups in the 1970s. AA World Services set up a committee to discuss the issue and in 1977 published a position paper entitled, "Big Book Study Guides and other interpretations of the AA program." It said inter alia: "The Board recognises that AA is a program of self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action - and that the use of study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is therefore not generally appropriate. The program is spiritual rather than academic. There are no authorities in AA and even a self-appointed 'teacher' has feet of clay. Hence, it is preferable that the individual member or prospect interpret the literature according to his/her own point of view." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8343. . . . . . . . . . . . 13th step as a spiritual level From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2012 9:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm following this thread with interest, as it seems particularly ironic that what started out as the idea of a 13th Step as a higher spiritual level would become the slang term for sexualized bad behavior. Is this mention in the 1947 Grapevine article on Clubs the earliest known usage of 13th Step as a spiritual level? And following on that, what is our earliest known example of the term being used the other way, as a term for "hooking up" within the fellowship? Victor and Lil are described in *Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers* as "writ[ing] the 13th step long before the first 12 were ever thought of" (page 97), but are there other publications (GSO published or regional) that use it earlier? Trysh Travis *Points: the Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society* http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/ *The Language of the Heart: the Recovery Movement from AA to Oprah* http://uncpress.unc.edu/books/T-8279.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8344. . . . . . . . . . . . Irma Livoni From: cometkazie1@cox.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2012 10:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard the Irma Livoni story almost since I hit the doors of A.A. However, I have never heard from a credible source what happened to her after she was kicked out of A.A. I would think her sponsor may have known or even done something to help her. Are there any citations besides "I heard it in a meeting" that shed some light on her? Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8345. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout From: cometkazie1@cox.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2012 10:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is it the current official position of AA that "the use of study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is ... not generally appropriate"? ============ On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Laurie Andrews wrote: > The 2005 Holiday (Christmas) issue of Box 4-5-9, the AA General > Service Office newsletter, gave an account of requests for advice > about study guides from members and groups in the 1970s. AA World > Services set up a committee to discuss the issue and in 1977 published > a position paper entitled, "Big Book Study Guides and other > interpretations of the AA program." > It said inter alia: "The Board recognises that AA is a program of > self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action - and that the use of > study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is therefore not > generally appropriate. The program is spiritual rather than academic. > There are no authorities in AA and even a self-appointed 'teacher' has > feet of clay. Hence, it is preferable that the individual member or > prospect interpret the literature according to his/her own point of > view." ============ I find this paragraph a bit puzzling given the history of A.A. In our pioneering days, it was not at all uncommon for groups to have formal training for newbies. Indeed, that was one of the requirements for full membership before the Traditions were confirmed in 1950. The Little Red Book sprang from the course outline of one of these instruction programs and I find it very solid and use it myself. There are many gurus who take their pony shows on the road. Joe and Charly have been mentioned. There are more. Gurus apparently vie to do workshops. Back to Basics is thought a lot of by some. One of the dangers that I have heard mentioned since my beginning in A.A. is to not interpret our program by yourself. I would also question the self-diagnosis statement, but that is a different issue. Is the position outlined above the current position of A.A.? Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8346. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level From: starshine1943 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2012 6:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The complete article for the reference begins on Page 46 in Language of the Heart - an article on Clubs. As the originator of this question, I believe this may be the reference I was remembering having read. However, I have now found another reference to the 1955 International Convention. GSO says they do not have the transcript of Bill's remarks there and suggested we check with Stepping Stones, which we are doing. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8347. . . . . . . . . . . . Manager at Dr. Bob's Home Convicted From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2012 5:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Bill Lash and Shakey Mike - - - - From: Bill Lash barefootbill@optonline.net> (barefootbill at optonline.net) Dr. Bob's Home in Akron continues on, despite conviction of former operations manager Published: Tuesday, April 03, 2012, 7:00 PM Updated: Wednesday, April 04, 2012, 1:09 AM By http://connect.cleveland.com/user/jcaniglia/index.html> John Caniglia, The Plain Dealer http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/dr_bobs_home_continues_on_d esp.\ html [49] AKRON, Ohio - The iconic home on Ardmore Avenue will continue to educate visitors and honor the legacy of Dr. Robert Smith, the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. What appears somewhat less known is the fleecing of the nonprofit that operates the home. Raymond Collins, 48, of Akron was sentenced to two years' probation in January after he pleaded guilty to a charge of grand theft in Summit County Common Pleas Court. Collins, who oversaw the nonprofit's books, took $52,872 from February 2009 through July 2011, Akron police said. He was ordered to make restitution. A police report said Collins used a Dr. Bob's Home bank card "beyond the intended use by purchasing personal items and making large ATM withdrawals." In public filings with the IRS, Dr. Bob's Home said it had assets of $497,295 at the end of 2010, the most recent year available. Attempts to reach Collins were unsuccessful. His attorney, Donald Hicks, declined to comment. Harmon Velie, who is listed as the chairman of the Dr. Bob's Home board, called Collins' actions "an internal matter." He said Collins was dismissed "because of the misappropriation of funds." He declined to discuss the issue further. The nonprofit maintains and operates the home at 855 Ardmore, which serves as a resource to teach guests of AA's beginnings in Akron and serves as an inspirational setting for AA members around the world, according to the nonprofit's public filings with IRS. It is listed as the "birthplace of Alcoholics Anonymous" by the National Register of Historic Places. It is where Smith lived from 1915 to 1950, according to the group's web site. While in Akron, Smith met Bill Wilson, a New York businessman, who, like Smith, struggled with alcoholism. They worked with others and wrote the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous," in 1939. Collins has never been in trouble before, according to court records. It is unclear what Collins did with the funds, but records suggest he had struggled financially. The Akron Beacon Journal reported in 2002 that one of Collins' children had serious medical problems. Federal court documents show he filed for bankruptcy in 2006, citing liabilities of $176,000 and assets of $109,000. Records indicate that he worked at Dr. Bob's Home for about 18 months, beginning about early 2009. In a March 2011 story about Dr. Bob's Home, the Beacon Journal interviewed Collins and Velie about the home's repairs. The group bought it in the mid-1980s. Collins told the newspaper that people come to the house from around the world to look around and learn. "It happens all the time," the paper quoted Collins. Visitors walk in, and "they just break out in tears." He told the paper about two visitors who stopped on their way from Mexico City to New York City. Once they walked in the door, they "dropped to their knees and started praying," the paper quoted Collins. Plain Dealer news researcher Jo Ellen Corrigan contributed to this story. - - - - From: "Shakey Mike" Shakey1aa@aol.com> (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Dear AAHistoryLovers: A visitor to our site who reported his/her email address as shakey1aa@aol.com thought you would be interested in this item from Cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/dr_bobs_home_continues_on_d esp.\ html [49] Shakey Mike I saw this article about Dr Bob's House. It discusses our History. The unfortunate part of this story is that it casts an unfavorable response, by those"normals" who read it, that alcoholics are dishonest. On the other hand why would the non proffit need with almost 500,000 dollars? Does any one know if there is a plan to spend the funds to buy another historic home in Akron(like T henry's house) or do they need that much money to make repairs on the two properties owned? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8348. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2012 2:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Am sorry, it was Mercedes McCambridge who broke her anonymity before Congress in 1970 and who had traveled to Bad Cannstadt, to visit the treatment center there. Dolores ----- Original Message ----- From: Sally Brown Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 Subject: Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service Hi, Dolores - Dave and I hadn't heard about Marty Mann's connection with these military treatment centers, and would love to learn whatever you find out. In addition, even though I retired recently as a 20-year staff chaplain at the Palo Alto VA (Veterans Affairs Health Care System), I will always have a deep interest in anything involving health treatment of our military, be they active or vets. Thanks very much. Sally IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8349. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2012 2:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dolores, With apologies, I only bring this up because there is so much confusion about this among some of our younger people, and this confusion has begun to do harm to the fellowship and its proper aims. Both the Twelve Steps and the Twelve Traditions are interpreted in AA according to the great underlying principle of ENGLISH COMMON LAW: the interpretation of a law is NOT determined by nit picking at what some particular phrase in the law COULD be twisted into saying by the clever use of logic. It is based mainly on PRECEDENT -- that is, on how earlier generations actually applied the law in practice. Put in simple Anglo-Saxon, "if our grandfathers and grandmothers did it that way, then it's perfectly legitimate for us to do it that way." Let me give an example from AA history, so you can see how this principle has regularly been applied in AA: Logically, you could argue that the third step requires all AA members to use the word "God" whenever they speak, even if they disagree on some of the traditional theological points about God, and you could certainly argue (logically) that atheists absolutely couldn't be permitted in the fellowship. But from the traditional practice of the good oldtimers we know that open atheists were allowed to be AA members from the very beginning. And so we have to continue to accept them now. As you well know, a good deal of European AA would be wiped out, if we didn't follow that precedent and continue to accept atheists into AA with open arms and cries of joy. That's why I'm raising this question, again with apologies, but it is an important question. In Message #8348 you referred to "Mercedes McCambridge who broke her anonymity before Congress in 1970." Are you sure about that? Did she "break her anonymity"? Have you checked the full transcript of her testimony before the Senate committee? Have you at least checked Nancy Olson's book "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends"? She records a lot of the Senate testimony in one part of that book. =============================== Nancy Olson's rather long book is now available as a Kindle e-book for $3.99 from Amazon, if you have hitherto been put off by the price: http://www.amazon.com/With-Lot-Help-Our-Friends/dp/0595270379 =============================== Nancy Olson (who later founded the AAHistoryLovers) was the one who was coordinating and vetting all the people who testified before that particular U.S. Senate committee, and she was being extremely careful to school them in advance about what they could and could not say without breaking AA rules. The important distinction is that you are not "breaking your anonymity" (in the sense of the Twelve Traditions) if you acknowledge in public that you are an alcoholic. It's O.K. to say that you are a "recovered alcoholic" (the phraseology which Nancy and Marti Mann preferred in public settings) and it is O.K. to say that you are a "recovering alcoholic" -- as long as you don't mention that you are an AA member. But as long as you are alive, you break the anonymity rule in the Twelve Traditions if you say in public (or write in the public media) that you are an AA member (and you also reveal your last name or allow your face to be photographed). That is the old AA tradition, the way it was practiced by a large number of the good oldtimers. Betty Ford (April 8, 1918 - July 8, 2011, President Ford's wife) followed that practice, and the AA good oldtimers of that era praised her. She publicly admitted to being a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, but never mentioned her membership in AA. But Father Ralph Pfau and Lillian Roth both got Bill Wilson very angry at them when they revealed in the public media that they were members of AA -- that was because they talked about their AA membership, and gave their full names (and in Pfau's case, numerous full face photographs accompanying his autobiography in Look magazine). That's the crucial distinction. If Mercedes McCambridge told the Senate committee about her alcoholism (which she did), that was O.K. But if she talked about being an AA member, then she was "breaking her anonymity" and violating the Twelve Traditions. And I can't remember now whether she did or didn't. But Nancy never said there were any problems in her case. Glenn C. P.S. There is fine point here that maybe needs discussing in a bit more detail. You could in fact testify before that U.S. Senate committee and reveal the fact that you were an A.A. member, is long as you did not give your last name, and did not allow the newspaper photographers or television cameras to show your face. That is what Nancy set up when Bill Wilson testified before the committee. The television cameras were only allowed to show the back of his head. There was one U.S. Navy officer where they also made sure that the TV cameras only showed him from the back. (Although Nancy, very clever woman, made sure that he was asked to raise his hand at one point, so the cameras could show all his gold braid glistening in the TV lights!). But if I remember correctly, the whole point of having Mercedes McCambridge testify lay in having the public know who she was, so my assumption is that Nancy must have lectured Mercedes very stiffly about not revealing her AA membership. When Nancy was in that kind of mood, she tended to sign her memos "Nancy Rex" (as in Tyrannosaurus Rex). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8350. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: alcoholism in the military service -- Mercedes McCambridge From: Dolores . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2012 2:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII [With reference to Mercedes McCambridge's testimony before the U.S. Senate committee on alcoholism, during the period when Senator Harold Hughes, Nancy Olson, Mrs. Marty Mann, and other AA members were working to get the Hughes Act passed by the U.S. Congress and then enabled by receiving the funds necessary to implement it.] From Dolores: Greetings, I have this statement from Mercedes on an old tape. She is speaking to a group of people, it is a very cold day, and she relates how her mother and relatives reacted to what she did. Senator Hughes asked her to do what she did and she did comply. I would have not stated this so openly if I didn't have it on an old tape. An AA member gave me the tape many years ago. Dear Glenn, I want to thank you for the clear explanation of saying I am an alcoholic in conjunction with AA. I remember Mercedes saying when she was asked to share-testify in Congress, that all lights went on, and the reporters were there taking her picture. I was very moved by her tape. You know the chaplains and the medics were influential in helping the military AAs to hold meetings on the bases here in Germany. After the Act of Congress, it was often difficult for the AA members to share in meetings because of the "3rd party." My "problem" right now is about putting the CER history on the Website here in Continental Europe. Our Region said no names because of another mishap some years ago. I believe that it is a policy to put first names and the first initial of the last name in histories. Most of the names mentioned in the history have passed away. But I decided not to put the history on our website. Dolores IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8351. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2012 11:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From pmds, Baileygc, Laurie Andrews, Charlie Parker, M.J. Johnson, bent_christensen, Jon Markle, John Barton, Tim T. (pvttimt), and Tommy Hickcox - - - - From: "Charlie Parker" charlieparker@prodigy.net> (charlieparker at prodigy.net) I'm curious who was on this board and how subjective their opinions were. "The Board recognises that AA is a program of self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action" sounds dangerous for a person that has also acknowledged that selfishness and self-centeredness is the root of their problem. There are lots of assumptions in their position that make me curious. Who says that spiritual and academic are mutually exclusive? Who determines if a teacher is "self appointed"? And finally , if we have to exclude input from those who have "feet of clay" we might as well throw the whole Big Book away. "We are not saints" was an understatement and an accurate appraisal of our founders. I had never seen this opinion from AAWS but it doesn't shock me. I don't think that we will ever publish an official study guide but I am in full support of people studying our literature whether they are in a group or alone (with and without guides, forms, and teachers). This has been going on for a long time around our fellowship by many folks that I have deep respect for. Respectfully, Charlie P. 3-22-1985 Austin, Tx - - - - From: "M.J. Johnson" threeeyedtoad@gmail.com> (threeeyedtoad at gmail.com) No - the conclusion that A.A. opposes the use of study guides is based on the partial quote included below from the December 2005 Box 4-5-9 article. The article continues: Of course, while Alcoholics Anonymous has declined to participate in the production of interpretive material, it does not oppose their publication or their use by A.A. members. Many members get in touch with the General Service Office, asking whether they can use study guides. A letter written in 1985 by Bob P., then general manager of G.S.O., is typical of the replies to such inquiries: "I don’t see that the use of this material by your group would be contrary to either the letter or the spirit of the Twelve Traditions .... And if [your group] wish to use mimeographed guides or forms to help the study of the book, neither the Board nor this office either endorse or oppose such materials." Bob went on to explain the position of the A.A.W.S. Board, and enclosed the 1977 position paper as background. The issue of Box 4-5-9 that includes this article is available online (beginning on page 7). See: http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/en_box459_holiday05-06.pdf (The full text of this Box 459 article is also given in AAHistoryLovers Message #8352.) - - - - From: "Bent" bent_christensen5@yahoo.com> (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com) It seems to me that the board with the statement "The Board recognizes (...) that the use of study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is therefore not generally appropriate" is on collision course in relation to Dr. Bob and AA in Akron who made the pamphlet "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous" http://hindsfoot.org/akr12.html and the early AAs who made beginners lessons entitled "Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps" http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html and the work of many a sponsor throughout the world. But it may be due to my lack of skills in the English language... Best wishes Bent - - - - From: Jon Markle jon.markle@mac.com> (jon.markle at mac.com) Since the "Big Book", Alcoholics Anonymous, is often referred to as our "text book", I find no difficulty with study guides. After all, our Book was written by men (and I suppose a few women), is considered a "guide" in and of itself. Nothing could be more ridiculous (to me) than to ban or declare "inappropriate", any Big Book or Step Study guides, often written by members with much more sobriety and recovery than the authors of the original guides to recovery. And since that "other" Book of spiritual direction is often studied in many ways, with guides of various methods, in educational settings, resulting in higher degrees, I can see no reason that OUR literature should be any more special than that . . . for drunks! A study guide is just that. It is used to enhance and structure the study for drunks who are otherwise mostly unstructured. Jon Markle, BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling Retired Therapist & SA Counseling Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation Raleigh, NC [My *opinions* & observations are my own, obviously. . They do not necessarily reflect upon any agency in which I have been employed. Please do not alter, copy, duplicate, refer to or otherwise use this communication for any publication -- e-mail, paper, book, electronic, or digital medium -- for any reason, in whole or in part, without my written permission. Thank you. (FYI: DOS 9.9.82)] - - - - From: John Barton jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) Might be nice if these people in NY - aka "AAWS Committee" (do they speak for AA as a whole) looked at the history. Perhaps if they read the Grapevines from the 40s and 50s they can see how well the Beginner's Classes and Step Studies were received. Like Bill L, I too owe a great deal to Joe and Charlie who made the Big Book Come Alive for me. In our neck of the woods the classes and workshops are well received and well attended. Newcomers here in NJ continuously ask for the handouts and study guides. So actual experience does not verify any wisdom or "truth" in the AAWS "proclamation." "Together we can do something I could not do alone." P.S. In the early days of course a typical response from Bobbie Burger on behalf of Bill and the NY Office may have read something like this: The Central Office has no opinion on these matters. If the guides or publications meet the needs of the local membership then they can certainly be used. Keep your eye on those Twelve Steps and you can't possibly fail. In those days there was a little more humility at play in NY. (I have seen numerous letters from Bobbie to members/groups along these exact lines with similar issues related to program or fellowship) Since when does anybody (let alone an "AAWS committee")speak for AA as whole? Perhaps the collective conscience of the conference is the nearest that any group or body can come to being the voice of AA. I was disheartened to see that a "position paper" from 1977 where NY (with all humility) was issued when they might have taken no position and suggested that each person determine for themselves whether or not study guides are helpful to them. I would certainly hope and pray that there is no official "AA position" on this or any other matter relating to groups and how thet conduct there affairs other than the 36 principles which have been previously published. "self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action" and these apply how to "the real alcoholic"? "If a mere code of morals, or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried." God Bless, Sorry for venting! "By their fruits you will know them" - - - - From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com) During my 34+ years in the AA fellowship, I've encountered some of the more extreme versions of "study guides, courses, classes or interpretations." Often, the adherents to these extreme versions claim that their approach is "More Original" with respect to early AA, and is therefore more authentic and more effective. Examples: 1. The Strike Them Sober approach. Years ago in Denver, where I sobered up, a group calling themselves AA's arrived and set up shop at one of the clubs. They claimed that "originally" new people were taken by some number of sober AA's and "worked on" until they had a vital spiritual experience. Then and only then, it was claimed, could someone have "real" sobriety. These folks would whisk newcomers away, and work on them someplace until the prospect had some sort of emotional experience. The newly sobered individual would then be brought back to the club as an example of the effectiveness of their method. 2. The Manuscript approach. In Phoenix where I lived for some time, some AA's obtained a photocopy of an "original" manuscript, complete with annotations in the margins, etc. Their claim was that since the manuscript was "more original" than the Big Book itself, that centering a meeting around the manuscript and its annotations would be superior to "regular" AA, more authentic, and more effective. They started a meeting based on special study of the differences between the manuscript and the First Edition of the Big Book. Rumors of other such approaches have reached me over the years. The commonality among these is the claim of superiority of the "special" approach. In speaking to folks involved in these operations, they often suggest that "regular" AA is betraying new people with a pale imitation of the "real" AA program, which is of course their "more original" way. And that, if only everyone would listen to them, that AA could save many, many more alkies. I've even heard the occasional adherent claim that "regular" AA is "killing drunks" through its unauthentic, less effective mode. And, of course, the special approaches all come with abundant literature and adherents, all witnessing to the obvious superiority of their leaders and their methods. Their literature often selects various passages from historically authentic AA writings, and fashions it into a unique perspective on recovery. Interestingly, these sects often focus on a particular personality, often a charismatic individual, who is, or was, the one who had the original inspiration that serves as the guiding doctrine. Clearly, this sort of thing has been ever-present in AA, as the controversy that existed between Clarence and Bill shows. I suppose that we will always continue to have phenomena like this in our fellowship. AA is not a religion, but our recovery is certainly based on attaining something of a spiritual nature. This being the case, I imagine that we have to expect some of the usual divisions that have occurred over the millennia in religions. For myself, our mainline literature suffices. My personal experience tells me that even though I work with a sponsor, I will get a slightly different experience from the Big Book and 12x12 than he did; after all, I'm a different person. The two of us working together with our literature as a guide, need no self-appointed authorities to interpret the literature and history of AA for us. If my sponsor has what I want, I'm likely to do what he did, to get what he got. Finally, when a particular AA tells me that he or she is better than the rest of us, my skepticism arises. And perhaps, most of all, I'm drawn to the First Tradition, the "Unity Tradition" and to the Twelfth Tradition's "Principles before Personalities." Cheers, Tim T. - - - - From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Is it AA's current position? Well, it certainly seemed to be in 2005. Time for a Conference question? Of course AA neither endorses nor opposes these outside issues; some members find such courses helpful, others believe they endanger the Fellowship's unity by sowing dissension between those who practice such extra-mural activities and those who don't. Tradition Three and the Preamble tell us the only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking (or to stay stopped); there is no requirement on anyone to even read the Big Book, let alone to study it, or to be taken through the program by a sponsor. PS: BTW Bill W. wrote that, "Every AA has the privilege of interpreting the program as he likes ..." (As Bill Sees It, page 16) - - - - From: pmds@aol.com (pmds at aol.com) Tommy Hickcox asked, "Is it the current official position of AA that 'the use of study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is ... not generally appropriate'?" I would certainly hope so - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) No matter how AA says it, people want to put themselves up as anointed by sponsors, or qualified to teach others what AA is about, but AA says there is no dogma. ______________________________________________ ORIGINAL MESSAGE FROM TOMMY HICKCOX AND LAURIE ANDREWS: From: cometkazie1@cox.net Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 Subject: Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Is it the current official position of AA that "the use of study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is ... not generally appropriate"? ============ On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Laurie Andrews wrote: > The 2005 Holiday (Christmas) issue of Box 4-5-9, the AA General > Service Office newsletter, gave an account of requests for advice > about study guides from members and groups in the 1970s. AA World > Services set up a committee to discuss the issue and in 1977 published > a position paper entitled, "Big Book Study Guides and other > interpretations of the AA program." > It said inter alia: "The Board recognises that AA is a program of > self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action - and that the use of > study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is therefore not > generally appropriate. The program is spiritual rather than academic. > There are no authorities in AA and even a self-appointed 'teacher' has > feet of clay. Hence, it is preferable that the individual member or > prospect interpret the literature according to his/her own point of > view." ============ I find this paragraph a bit puzzling given the history of A.A. In our pioneering days, it was not at all uncommon for groups to have formal training for newbies. Indeed, that was one of the requirements for full membership before the Traditions were confirmed in 1950. The Little Red Book sprang from the course outline of one of these instruction programs and I find it very solid and use it myself. There are many gurus who take their pony shows on the road. Joe and Charly have been mentioned. There are more. Gurus apparently vie to do workshops. Back to Basics is thought a lot of by some. One of the dangers that I have heard mentioned since my beginning in A.A. is to not interpret our program by yourself. I would also question the self-diagnosis statement, but that is a different issue. Is the position outlined above the current position of A.A.? Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8352. . . . . . . . . . . . Position paper on Big Book Study Guides -- Box 459 From: M.J. Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/9/2012 5:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Box 459: News and Notes from the General Service Office of A.A., Vol. 51, No. 6 (2005), p. 7-8. Big Book Study Guides: Reviewing a Position Paper Sober alcoholics are notorious for refusing to be told what to do, say, or think. The Steps are "suggested," and experienced sponsors are wise enough not to give newcomers hard and fast directives. Yet paradoxically, a surprising number of members seek out and rely on study guides when they begin delving into A.A. literature. A variety of such guides are available, published by non-A.A. entities. While the General Service Board neither endorses nor opposes these publications, we have historically declined to produce any kind of interpretive material ourselves, choosing instead to let our literature stand on its own. In 1977, faced with a rising number of requests from non-A.A. sources and some A.A. members to reprint portions of the Big Book and other material in study guides, the directors of A.A. World Services, Inc. took a hard look at the subject and appointed a committee to explore the question. Members of the committee unanimously recommended that the board not grant permission to outside entities to use excerpts from our literature in study guides, and that A.A. itself should not publish study guides. The resulting paper, "Big Book Study Guides and Other Interpretations of the A.A. Program: A Position Paper," begins with thoughts of several of the directors who made up the committee. For example, one director wrote: "Part of the beauty and magic of A.A. is that persons from all walks of life with varied backgrounds may benefit from the Big Book, the Steps, the Traditions, the Concepts, from their own points of view. Placing guidelines on paper seems to say, 'This is the way -- the only way.' "The thrust of our literature, our program, the Steps, the groups, and the meetings are all designed, and effectively so, to facilitate self-diagnosis and self-action within the A.A. environment. I see our literature, particularly the books, as being study guides. It’s all there .... I almost have the feeling that the words are living, changing, growing. I know this isn’t so as they are the same and only I change and grow. But this phenomenon takes place because the words are the words; they are unlayered, uninterpreted, standing on their own. One of our slogans is ‘Keep it Simple.’ I believe our books are just simple enough to stand as they are and just complex enough to live and grow. "I understand our program to be a spiritual program. I know it has been and is for me. However, I don’t believe any amount of study with or without interpretive guides could have given me this. The words were part of it, but the interaction with other A.A.s at meetings and in face to face discussion is what really got me into action. Knowing what I should do has been less of a problem than having the faith to undertake the first quivering right actions. Exposure to living testament, not written words, provides the spark of faith that results finally in determined action. I would be sorely troubled to think that we believed that this would be better packaged than it already is. I think it would be very unwise to tamper with a delicate balance that seems to be working as they say, ‘just fine,’ for alcoholics who want it." Another director felt this way: "My knowledge of recovery has been received in the Fellowship through the experience of one drunk sharing with another drunk and it was not received on an instructive basis or in a classroom atmosphere. I believe that we in A.A. communicate with each other in a language of the heart, and this type of communication would be extremely difficult with the use of study guides .... "Finally, Tradition Two tells me we have but one ultimate authority -- a loving God as he expresses himself in our group conscience. It seems to me if we allow interpretations of the Big Book through study guides, we will also undermine our ultimate authority." The final policy statement reads as follows: "The A.A. World Services Board of Directors feels strongly that permission should not be granted to outside publishers or other parties to reprint A.A. literature for the purpose of study guides or interpretive or explanatory texts, etc. If such interpretive or study guides are to be prepared, they should be published by A.A. World Services, Inc. "The Board recognizes, however, that A.A. is a program of self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self-action -- and that the use of study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is therefore not generally appropriate. The program is spiritual rather than academic. There are no authorities in A.A. and even a self-appointed ‘teacher’ has feet of clay. Hence, it is preferable that the individual member or prospect interpret the literature according to his/her own point of view. For these reasons, the Board does not plan to publish study guides or interpretations of A.A. literature at this time." Of course, while Alcoholics Anonymous has declined to participate in the production of interpretive material, it does not oppose their publication or their use by A.A. members. Many members get in touch with the General Service Office, asking whether they can use study guides. A letter written in 1985 by Bob P., then general manager of G.S.O., is typical of the replies to such inquiries: "I don’t see that the use of this material by your group would be contrary to either the letter or the spirit of the Twelve Traditions .... And if [your group] wish to use mimeographed guides or forms to help the study of the book, neither the Board nor this office either endorse or oppose such materials." Bob went on to explain the position of the A.A.W.S. Board, and enclosed the 1977 position paper as background. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8353. . . . . . . . . . . . Found: Lloyd Tate, AA#30, author of The Rolling Stone From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2012 2:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Lloyd T's story appeared in the first edition of the Big Book. Born 12 Nov 1888, got sober in June of 37, out of Cleveland. Was 50 years old when he got sober. Thanks to Ancestry.com (not a commercial), and the Cleveland Library System, I found Lloyd's obit in Cleveland Necrology File. A further veteran's search reveals that Lloyd is buried at Knollwood Cem and Mausoleum in Cleveland. Lot: S-Wing Ext, Crypt 659-C. It is my research quest to find as many of the original members and other influential people in our fellowship. I have info on other early members and would welcome any information you guys have collected. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8354. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Manager at Dr. Bob's Home Convicted From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2012 11:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie Andrews and Brian Koch - - - - From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) That high-pitched whine you hear is Dr Bob spinning ... How canny Rockefeller was to keep AA poor! Laurie A. - - - - From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com) As an aside, I have been thoroughly disappointed to have called Dr. Bobs house three separate times, to inquire about information or archival information, and have never received a call back. two messages left on the phone, one left with a person. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8355. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. home movie From: WENDI TURNER . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/9/2012 6:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is amazing ... This is a very rare film of Bill and Lois at Stepping Stones telling their story. http://youtu.be/Mrb1gd0oFTg IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8356. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: information on Akron AA history and archives From: Norm The Tinman . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2012 5:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If I was trying to get info pertaining to anything in Akron, I'd call central office and ask -- I know there's a volunteer Archivist there a lot of the time -- Norm _____________________________________________ Original message from brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com) As an aside, I have been thoroughly disappointed to have called Dr. Bobs house three separate times, to inquire about information or archival information, and have never received a call back. two messages left on the phone, one left with a person. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8357. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred From: dave landuyt . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/8/2012 1:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mr. Barton, You made mention of "Merton's notes" in your latest AAHL discussing the Names of the First One Hundred. Is this the Merton who was writing "Black Sheep"? I'd like to read these if possible. Thank You, Dave Landuyt ________________________________ From: jax760 jax760@yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred Although Burwell is listed for NY he actually bounced around. Both before and after his relapse in mid 1938 he was living with the Parkurst's in Upper Montclair, NJ which is where he first met Bill according to Merton's notes. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8358. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level From: Jim Robbins . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/5/2012 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Language of the Heart, page 46, second paragraph in the article of AA Clubs, reproduces paragraph 2 on "Clubs in AA" by Bill W. in the April 1947 AA Grapevine. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8359. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2012 6:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "The Big Book (BB) is often referred to as our 'text book'" (Jon Markle). Mistakenly so. It is our basic text (dust cover), which is quite different. A text is neutral; it gives information - e.g. an advertisement, or railway timetable. A text book gives instructions; it tells you what to do. The BB says, "If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already be asking - "What do I have to do?" It is the purpose of this book to answer such questions specifically. We shall tell you what we have done." (emphasis added). NB not - what you have to do. The word instructions does not appear in the first 164 pp of the Big Book. There are only suggestions, guidance and directions. A sign post also gives directions, not instructions; but it can't force anyone to take them. In fact, the BB is a story book. It says so on the title page: "Alcoholics Anonymous: The story of how many thousands of men and women have recovered from alcoholism." We are not book burners. The BB says, "God will constantly reveal more to you and to us...", and "There are many helpful books also..." But can a group that requires members to study the BB call itself an AA group? "The Book that started it all: the original working manuscript of Alcoholics Anonymous" (Hazelden, 2010) records instances where the pioneers changed prescriptive language in the manuscript to descriptive. For example, one marginal annotation says, "We have said constantly the trouble with (religion) is that they try to dogmatically pour people into moulds. So why should we give specific instructions in the book such as saying do this and do that?" (page 192). And, "... it is clear from the descriptions of AA's earliest contributors, as when Ebby Thatcher visited Bill Wilson in November of 1934 or in Bill and Bob's epic meeting six months later, that neither Ebby nor Bill had any agenda beyond honestly sharing their experience. Many alcoholics are oversensitive to even a hint of being controlled ... 'But he did no ranting' is a powerful moment in Bill's story ... Similarly, Dr Bob's experience shifted when Bill made it clear that he wasn't there to help him. He was there to help himself." (Original emphasis). "There are few absolutes inherent in the 12 Steps. Most Steps are open to interpretation, based on the experience and outlook of the individual." (Emphasis added: As Bill Sees It, page 191). _______________________________________________ Original message from: Jon Markle jon.markle@mac.com> (jon.markle at mac.com) Since the "Big Book", Alcoholics Anonymous, is often referred to as our "text book", I find no difficulty with study guides. After all, our Book was written by men (and I suppose a few women), is considered a "guide" in and of itself. Nothing could be more ridiculous (to me) than to ban or declare "inappropriate", any Big Book or Step Study guides, often written by members with much more sobriety and recovery than the authors of the original guides to recovery. And since that "other" Book of spiritual direction is often studied in many ways, with guides of various methods, in educational settings, resulting in higher degrees, I can see no reason that OUR literature should be any more special than that . . . for drunks! A study guide is just that. It is used to enhance and structure the study for drunks who are otherwise mostly unstructured. Jon Markle, BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling Retired Therapist & SA Counseling Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation Raleigh, NC [My *opinions* & observations are my own, obviously. . They do not necessarily reflect upon any agency in which I have been employed. Please do not alter, copy, duplicate, refer to or otherwise use this communication for any publication -- e-mail, paper, book, electronic, or digital medium -- for any reason, in whole or in part, without my written permission. Thank you. (FYI: DOS 9.9.82)] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8360. . . . . . . . . . . . Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more like AA From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2012 10:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Alan Wilson, bishop of Buckingham, quoted in the Guardian newspaper (7 April 2012): "Locally, the Church of England is often good news. Individual clergy and Christians are often liked and respected on the streets. The figure of Jesus remains broadly attractive, even intriguing and sometimes compelling. But the national institution appears disconnected from all this, remote, hierarchical, fixated on its own stuff. The church of the future may be less a civil service or conventional business, and more a movement like Alcoholics Anonymous, the ultimate locally delivered, life-changing non-profit organisation. The job of the hierarchy will be to enable this, not to represent it or control it." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8361. . . . . . . . . . . . When did *To thine own self be true* enter the recovery canon? From: sflower1290 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2012 10:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Admittedly, I've only been in this a little over 21 years - but almost every recovery token I've ever received has had "to thine own self be true" around its circumference. I've done a search through the Big Book (Doctor's Opinion, the next 164, and the appendices) and I don't find it there, nor in the searchable versions of the 12 & 12 that I have. So when a friend asked me, "Where did it come from?" my best shot was to ask my best resource here on AAHL. We both would appreciate anything you can share. - - - - FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR: I did a search for that phrase in our back AAHL messages, using the little box at the top on our Message Board: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages This is the first step to take whenever we're trying to track down info on things like this. Doing that, I discovered a reference to the July 1947 Grapevine: Message #1550 Grapevine, July '47 The Clip Sheet: Excerpts from the Public Press Wilmington, Del., "News": "'To thine own self be true, and it must follow, as night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man,' was the quotation used by a speaker and member of A.A. when he addressed an open meeting of more than 300 persons here last night. The speaker, a resident of Massachusetts, alighted from a train here when he heard of the local group's meeting and attended as a spectator. However, he was requested to speak when a speaker scheduled was unable to attend. The theme of his talk, 'Honesty with One's Self,' was brought out when he said, 'Sincerity means the difference between those who accomplish their aims in A.A. and those who don't.'" And another AAHL message pointed out, for those who did not already know this, that the phrase was a quote from Shakespeare: Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 78–80 Polonius: "This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man." But remember, Polonius was a self-serving old palace politician, and what he meant by this in that passage from Hamlet was that being "a man of truth" meant looking out for yourself first at the materialistic level. If you did that, then technically speaking, you were still being "a man of truth" even if you were lying to everybody else around you -- and cheating and manipulating and conning them all the time -- as long as you were doing it in the pursuit of your own TRUE selfish material self-interest. So it's best to soft pedal the Shakespearean reference, and think instead about the truly unselfish and totally honest good old timer who gave you that coin -- that was the man or woman who understood what that phrase was truly supposed to mean. As the Akron good old timer Ernie Gerig said to young Larry W. (the man who first introduced me to the AA program), "Larry, you don't ever have to betray yourself again." That's what "to thine own self be true" means to us AA folks, not what Polonius was saying it meant. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8362. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: information on Akron AA history and archives From: Jayaa82@earthlink.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2012 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Akron Archives has several members of the committee. They will get back to you. The best time to reach the archivist is Saturdays. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8363. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob's House Manager Convicted (2nd Article) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2012 8:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Second article about Dr. Bob's House Manager Conviction: http://www.ohio.com/news/local/operations-manager-of-dr-bob-s-home-pleads-gu ilty\ -to-grand-theft-1.291761 [50] Operations manager of Dr. Bob's Home pleads guilty to grand theft By Ed Meyer Beacon Journal staff writer Akron Beacon Journal Online Thursday, April 12, 2012 The former operations manager of Dr. Bob's Home, an Akron landmark, has been sentenced to two years of probation for stealing nearly $53,000 in a lengthy series of transactions with the nonprofit group's bank credit card, authorities said. Raymond C. Collins Sr., 48, who was fired from his caretaker job last summer, pleaded guilty in Summit County Common Pleas Court to one count of grand theft. The illegal credit card transactions, according to Akron police records, occurred over a 2'-year period, beginning in February 2009 and continuing through July 20 of last year, when Collins was fired. Akron Police Lt. Rick Edwards said investigators determined the theft involved a total of $52,892.15 As part of the sentence, Common Pleas Judge Tammy O'Brien ordered Collins to make restitution. Under Ohio's new sentencing law, which went into effect Sept. 30 as a means to reduce the overcrowded state prison population, the judge could not sentence Collins to prison time because his crime was nonviolent and he had no previous felony record. The Ardmore Avenue home, named for Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Dr. Robert Holbrook Smith, is a destination point for recovering alcoholics from around the world. It is noted as 'The Birthplace of Alcoholics Anonymous' in the National Register of Historic Places, and it has been a museum in the Highland Square area of the city since the mid-1980s when the nonprofit group bought it. Group board members did not respond to phone messages seeking comment on the criminal case. April Wiesner, chief spokesperson for the Summit County Prosecutor's Office, said board members discovered the illegal purchases and alerted Akron police. In a statement to the credit card bank, board members said Collins used the credit card for personal purchases, cash withdrawals, restaurant meals and for a Lowe's account without the board's consent, Wiesner said. In a plea deal finalized Jan. 12 in O'Brien's court, the judge agreed to a prosecution request to dismiss one additional felony charge for misuse of a credit card. Wiesner said the home's board agreed to the resolution of the case. Under O'Brien's sentencing order, Collins could be sent to prison for one year if he violates terms of his probation or leaves the state without court permission. Ed Meyer can be reached at 330-996-3784 or at emeyer@thebeaconjournal.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8364. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W. home movie From: Arthur S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2012 9:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Arthur S., Charles Knapp, Barefoot Bill, and starshine1943 - - - - From: Arthur S arthur.s@live.com> (arthur.s at live.com) The film can be purchased from GSO - It's item DV-04 in the AAWS Literature Catalog. - - - - From: Charles Knapp cpknapp@yahoo.com> (cpknapp at yahoo.com) This isn't rare ........ you can buy the DVD from GSO. Item number DV-04, price $15. Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: barefootbill@optonline.net (barefootbill at optonline.net) I'm sorry but there is nothing amazing about this video except that it is illegal to post the full version of a copyrighted film on youtube. You can easily buy the DVD from the AA General Service Office in NYC who also holds the copyright. Just love, Barefoot Bill - - - - Original message from: "starshine1943" adahl@cfl.rr.com> (adahl at cfl.rr.com) This is a General Service Office video - and probably copyrighted. _______________________________________ From: WENDI TURNER wenditurner@gmail.com> (wenditurner at gmail.com) Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 Subject: Bill W. home movie This is amazing ... This is a very rare film of Bill and Lois at Stepping Stones telling their story. http://youtu.be/Mrb1gd0oFTg IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8365. . . . . . . . . . . . Grave found: Harry W Latta, AA#16 From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2012 2:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Also have located Harry W Latta, AA#16, sobered in July of 36 out of Akron. He is buried in Rose Hill Burial Park, Akron OH. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8366. . . . . . . . . . . . Grave found: Charles H. Simonson, AA#38 From: (Sender unknown) . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2012 1:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "B" kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com) Also located Charles H. Simonson, AA#38, Sobered in Sep of 37 also out of Akron. He is buried at Methodist Cemetery, Salesville OH. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8367. . . . . . . . . . . . Found: Vermont memorial stone for Cebra Graves From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2012 8:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was able to located the memorial stone for Cebra Graves in Vermont. We know him as one of the men who intervened in court on Ebby's behalf, leading Ebby to the Oxford Group, and his sobriety. Consequently Ebby was able to reach out to an old school friend by the name of William G. Wilson. Cebra's father was actually the judge, probably making it easier to secure the relief. Cebra is actually buried in Urrogne France, but there is a memorial stone located in Bennington (VT) Village Cemetery. Born 26 Aug 1899, Died 1 Jan 1979, Cebra supposedly joined AA later in life while living in France. A wonderful woman in Bennington who is the source for the info emailed me a map of the cemetery. On his stone is the inscription "Here long ago for me, Eternity was born" If you want a copy of the map, just message me: kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com) The quest continues. Oh yes, and his middle name was Quackenbush. Nice!! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8368. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did *To thine own self be true* enter the recovery canon? From: Steve Flower . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2012 12:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Steve Flower and stalban - - - - Steve Flower steve1290@gmail.com> (steve1290 at gmail.com) Glenn, I saw that reference too ... but one reference in 65 years doesn't explain the larger impact that the phrase has had in the recovery community. For a phrase that seems to come up regularly in meetings, is frequently (if not almost always) on recovery tokens....it seemed like there should be more history to this than that. I've always understood it in the character of "if I don't take care of me, I will have nothing to give to anyone else" or "I can't give away what I have not received," to focus on the out-of-self facet of a seemingly self-centered phrase. Just curious if anyone else knew of when it became more of a "mainstream" concept in our fellowship. - - - - From: stalban2001 stalban2001@yahoo.com> (stalban2001 at yahoo.com) Adapted from eNotes: Shakespeare Quotes http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/thine-own-self-true "To thine own self be true" is Polonius's last piece of advice to his son Laertes, who is in a hurry to get on the next boat to Paris, where he'll be safe from his father's long-winded speeches. The other famous bit from this passage is "neither a borrower nor a lender be." Polonius has in mind something much more Elizabethan than the self-knowledge and sense of integrity that the phrase now suggests -- and which is undoubtedly the intended meaning on those medallions. As Polonius sees it, borrowing money, loaning money, carousing with women of dubious character, and other intemperate pursuits are "false" to the self. By "false" Polonius seems to mean "disadvantageous" or "detrimental to your image"; by "true" he means "loyal to your own best interests." Take care of yourself first, he counsels, and that way you'll be in a position to take care of others. There is a certain kind of wisdom in the old man's warnings, of course; but he repeats orthodox platitudes with unwonted self-satisfaction. Polonius, who is deeply impressed with his own wordliness, has perfected the arts of protecting his interests and of projecting seeming virtues, his method of being "true" to others. Never mind that this includes spying on Hamlet for King Claudius. Never mind, as well, that many of Polonius's haughty, if not trite, kernels of wisdom are now taken as Shakespeare's own wise pronouncements on living a proper life. - - - - Original message on Wed, Apr 11, 2012 from: sflower1290 steve1290@gmail.com> > Admittedly, I've only been in this a little over 21 years - but almost > every recovery token I've ever received has had "to thine own self be true" > around its circumference. I've done a search through the Big Book (Doctor's > Opinion, the next 164, and the appendices) and I don't find it there, nor > in the searchable versions of the 12 & 12 that I have. > > So when a friend asked me, "Where did it come from?" my best shot was to > ask my best resource here on AAHL. We both would appreciate anything you > can share. > > - - - - > > FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR: > > Message #1550 > Grapevine, July '47 > The Clip Sheet: Excerpts from the Public Press > > Wilmington, Del., "News": "'To thine own self be true, and it must follow, > as night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man,' was the > quotation used by a speaker and member of A.A. when he addressed an open > meeting of more than 300 persons here last night. The speaker, a resident > of Massachusetts, alighted from a train here when he heard of the local > group's meeting and attended as a spectator. However, he was requested to > speak when a speaker scheduled was unable to attend. The theme of his talk, > 'Honesty with One's Self,' was brought out when he said, 'Sincerity means > the difference between those who accomplish their aims in A.A. and those > who don't.'" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8369. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2012 3:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Dave, You can start by checking every post Merton put on the AAHL. I assume you have read Black Sheep so you have that as well. I will look for that specific note about Burwell. Regards ________________________________ Replying to message from: dave landuyt dave_landuyt@yahoo.com> (dave_landuyt at yahoo.com) Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2012 Subject: Re: Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred Mr. Barton, You made mention of "Merton's notes" in your latest AAHL discussing the Names of the First One Hundred. Is this the Merton who was writing "Black Sheep"? I'd like to read these if possible. Thank You, Dave Landuyt - - - - Replying to message from: jax760 jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred Although Burwell is listed for NY he actually bounced around. Both before and after his relapse in mid 1938 he was living with the Parkurst's in Upper Montclair, NJ which is where he first met Bill according to Merton's notes. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8370. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more like AA From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2012 4:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Of course this reminds me of Sam Shoemaker's great essay c. July 1955 "What the Church Must Learn from Alcoholics Anonymous" "... God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong ...." -- I Corinthians 1:26 During the weekend of the Fourth of July last (1955), I attended one of the most remarkable conventions I ever expect to attend. It was a gathering in St. Louis of about five thousand members of the movement called Alcoholics Anonymous. The occasion was the celebration of their twentieth anniversary, and the turning over freely and voluntarily of the management and destiny of that great movement by the founders and 'old-timers' to a board which represents the fellowship as a whole. As I lived and moved among these men and women for three days, I was moved as I have seldom been moved in my life. It happens that I have watched the unfolding of this movement with more than usual interest, for its real founder and guiding spirit, Bill W., found his initial spiritual answer at Calvary Church in New York, when I was rector there, in 1935. Having met two men, unmistakable alcoholics, who had found release from their difficulty, he was moved to seek out the same answer for himself. But he went further. Being of a foraging and inquiring mind, he began to think there was some general law operating here, which could be made to work, not in two men's lives only, but in two thousand or two million. He set to work to find out what it was. He consulted psychiatrists, doctors, clergy and recovered alcoholics to discover what it was. The first actual group was not in New York, but in Akron, Ohio. Bill was spending a weekend there in a hotel. The crowd was moving towards the bar. He was lonely and felt danger assailing him. He consulted the church-directory in the hotel lobby, and found the name of a local clergyman and his church. He called him on the telephone and said, "I am an alcoholic down here at the hotel. The going is a little hard just now. Have you anybody you think I might meet and talk to?" He gave him the name of a woman who belonged to one of the great tire-manufacturing families. He called her, she invited him out at once and said she had a man she wanted to have meet him. While he was on his way, she called Dr. Bob S. and his wife, Anne. Dr. Bob said he'd give her five minutes. He stayed five hours and told Bill, "You're the only man I've ever seen with the answer to alcoholism." They invited Bill over from the hotel to stay at their house. And there was begun, twenty years ago, the first actual Alcoholics Anonymous group. The number of them now is beyond count. Some say there are 160,000 to 200,000 recovered alcoholics, but nobody knows how many extend beyond this into the fringes of the unknown. They say that each alcoholic holds within the orbit of his problem an average of fourteen persons who are affected by it. This means that conservatively two and a half million people's lives are different because of the existence of Alcoholics Anonymous. There is hardly a city or town or even hamlet now where you cannot find a group, strong and well knit, or struggling in its infancy. Prof. Austin McCormick, of Berkeley, California, former Commissioner of Correction in the city of New York, who was also with us at the St. Louis Convention, said once in my hearing that AA may "prove to be one of the greatest movements of all time." That was years ago. Subsequently facts support his prophecy. On the Sunday morning of the convention, I was asked to talk to them, together with Fr. Edward Dowling S.J., a wonderful Roman Catholic priest who has done notable service for AA in interpreting it to his people, and Dr. Jim S., a most remarkable colored physician of Washington, on the spiritual aspects of the AA program. They are very generous to non-alcoholics, but I should have preferred that it be a bona fide alcoholic that did the speaking. In the course of what I said to them, I remarked that I thought it had been wise for AA to confine its activity to alcoholics. But, I added, "I think we may see an effect of AA on medicine, on psychiatry, on correction, on the ever-present problem of human nature; and not least on the Church. AA indirectly derived much of its inspiration from the Church. Now perhaps the time has come for the Church to be re-awakened and re-vitalized by those insights and practices found in AA." I think some of you may be a little horrified at this suggestion. I fear you will be saying to yourself, "What have we, who have always been decent people, to learn from a lot of reconstructed drunks?" And perhaps you may thereby reveal to yourself how very far you are from the spirit of Christ and the Gospel, and how very much in need of precisely the kind of check-up that may come to us from AA. If I need a text for what I say to you, there is one ready to hand in I Corinthians 1:26, "... God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong." I need not remind you that there is a good deal of sarcasm in that verse; because it must be evident that anything God can use is neither foolish nor weak, and that if we consider ourselves wise and strong, we may need to go to school to those we have called foolish and weak. The first thing I think the Church needs to learn from AA is that nobody gets anywhere till he recognizes a clearly defined need. These people do not come to AA to get made a little better. They do not come because the best people are doing it. They come because they are desperate. They are not ladies and gentlemen looking for a religion, they are utterly desperate men and women in search of redemption. Without what AA gives, death stares them in the face. With what AA gives them, there is life and hope. There are not a dozen ways, there are not two ways, there is one way; and they find it, or perish. AA's each and all have a definite, desperate need. They have the need, and they are ready to tell somebody what it is if they see the least chance that it can be met. Is there anything as definite for you or me, who may happen not to be alcoholics? If there is, I am sure that it lies in the realm of our conscious withholding of the truth about ourselves from God and from one another, by pretending that we are already good Christians. Let me here quote a member of AA who has written a most amazing book: his name is Jerome Ellison, and the book is "Report to the Creator." In this (p. 210) he says, "The relief of being accepted can never be known by one who never thought himself unaccepted. I hear of 'good Christian men and women' belonging to 'fine old church families.' There were no good Christians in the first church, only sinners. Peter never let himself or his hearers forget his betrayal in the hour the cockcrow. James, stung by the memory of his years of stubborn resistance, warned the church members: 'Confess your faults to one another.' That was before there were fine old church families. Today the last place where one can be candid about one's faults is in church. In a bar, yes; in a church, no. I know; I've tried both places." Let that sting you and me just as it should, and make us miserable with our church Pharisaism till we see it is just as definite and just as hideous as anybody's drunkenness can ever be, and a great deal more really dangerous. The second thing the Church needs to learn from AA is that men are redeemed in a life-changing fellowship. AA does not expect to let anybody who comes in stay as he is. They know he is in need and must have help. They live for nothing else but to extend and keep extending that help. Like the Church, they did not begin in glorious Gothic structures, but in houses or caves in the earth, --wherever they could get a foothold, meet people, and gather. It never occurs to an AA that it is enough for him to sit down and polish his spiritual nails all by himself, or dust off his soul all by himself, or spend a couple of minutes praying each day all by himself. His soul gets kept in order by trying to help other people get their souls in order, with the help of God. At once a new person takes his place in this redeeming, life-changing fellowship. He may be changed today, and out working tomorrow--no long, senseless delays about giving away what he has got. He's ready to give the little he has the moment it comes to him. The fellowship that redeemed him will wither and die unless he and others like him get in and keep that fellowship moving and growing by reaching others. Recently I heard an AA say that he could stay away from his Veteran's meeting, his Legion, or his Church, and nobody would notice it. But if he stayed away from his AA meeting, his telephone would begin to ring the next day! A life-changing fellowship" sounds like a description of the Church. It is of the ideal Church. But the actual. Not one in a hundred is like this. The layman say this is the minister's job, and the ministers say it is the evangelist's job, and body finds a rationalized excuse for not doing what every Christian ought to be doing, i.e. bringing other people into the redeeming, life-changing fellowship. The third thing the Church needs to learn from AA is the necessity for definite personal dealing with people. AA's know all the stock excuses -- they've used them themselves and heard them a hundred times. All the blame put on someone else --my temperament is different -- I've tried it and it doesn't work for me -- I'm not really so bad, I just slip a little sometimes. They've heard them all, and know them for the rationalized pack of lies they are. They constitute, taken together, the Gospel of Hell and Failure. I've heard them laboring with one another, now patient as a mother, now savage as a prize-fighter, now careful in explanation, now pounding a heavy personal challenge, but always knowing the desperate need and the sure answer. Are we in the Church like that? Have you ever been drastically dealt with by anybody? Have you ever dared to be drastic in love with anybody? We are so official, so polite, and so ready to accept each other and ourselves at face value. I went for years before ever I met a man that dared get at my real needs, create a situation in which I could be honest with him, and hold me to a specific Christian commitment and decision. One can find kindness and even good advice in the Church. That is not all men need. They need to be helped to face themselves as they really are. The AA people see themselves just as they are. I think many of us in the Church see ourselves as we should like to appear to others, not as we are before God. We need drastic personal dealing and challenge. Who is ready and trained to give it to us? How many of us have ever taken a 'fearless moral inventory' of ourselves, and dared make the depth of our need known to any other human being? This gets at the pride which is the hindrance and sticking-point for so many of us, and which, for most of us in the Church, has never even been recognized, let alone faced or dealt with. The fourth thing the Church needs to learn from A. A. is the necessity for a real change of heart, a true conversion. As we come Sunday after Sunday, year after year, we are supposed to be in a process of transformation. Are we? The AA's are. At each meeting there are people seeking and in conscious need. Everybody pulling for the people who speak, and looking for more insight and help. They are pushed by their need. They are pulled by the inspiration of others who are growing. They are a society of the "before and after" with a clear line between the old life and the new. This is not the difference between sinfulness and perfection; it is the difference between accepted wrongdoing and the genuine beginning of a new way of life. How about us? Again I quote Jerome Ellison, in his report to God (page 205): "... I began to see that many of the parishioners did not really want to find You, because finding You would change them from their habitual ways, and they did not endure the pain of change . . . For our churchman-like crimes of bland, impenetrable pose, I offer shame..." I suppose that the sheer visibility of the alcoholic problem creates a kind of enforced, honesty; but surely if we are exposed again and again to God, to Christ, to the Cross, there should be a breaking down of our pride and unwillingness to change. We should know by now that this unwillingness multiplied by thousands and tens of thousands, is what is the matter with the Church, and what keeps it from being what God means it to be on earth. The change must begin somewhere. We know it ought to begin in us. One of the greatest things the Church should learn from AA is the need people have for an exposure to living Christian experience. In thousands of places, alcoholics (and others) can go and hear recovered alcoholics speak about their experiences and watch the process of new life and take place before their eyes. There you have it, the need and the answer to the need, right before your eyes. They say that their public relations are based, not on promotion, but on attraction. This attraction begins when you see people with problems like your own, hear them speaking freely of the answers they are finding, and realize that such honesty and such change is exactly what you need yourself. No ordinary service of worship in the Church can possibly do this. We need to supplement what we do now by the establishment of informal companies where people who are spiritually seeking can see how faith takes hold in other lives, how the characteristically Christian experience comes to them. Some churches are doing this, but not nearly enough of them. One I know, where on Sunday evenings laymen and women speak simply about what has happened to them spiritually: it is drawing many more by attraction. This needs to be multiplied by the tens of thousands, and the Church itself awakened. As I looked out over that crowd of five thousand in Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis, I said to myself, "Would that the Church were like this -- ordinary men and women with great need who have found a great Answer, and do not hesitate to make it known wherever they can -- a trained army of enthusiastic, humble, human workers whose efforts make life a different thing for other people!" Let us ask God to forgive our blindness and laziness and complacency, and through these re-made people to learn our need for honesty, for conversion, for fellowship and for honest witness! ______________________________________ Original message from: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012 Subject: Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more like AA Alan Wilson, bishop of Buckingham, quoted in the Guardian newspaper (7 April 2012): "Locally, the Church of England is often good news. Individual clergy and Christians are often liked and respected on the streets. The figure of Jesus remains broadly attractive, even intriguing and sometimes compelling. But the national institution appears disconnected from all this, remote, hierarchical, fixated on its own stuff. The church of the future may be less a civil service or conventional business, and more a movement like Alcoholics Anonymous, the ultimate locally delivered, life-changing non-profit organisation. The job of the hierarchy will be to enable this, not to represent it or control it." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8371. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred From: dave landuyt . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2012 7:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mr. Barton, I totally misread your AAHL, and assumed you were referring to writings by Merton that I had not read. I didn't think "Black Sheep" was available. If I am in error, can you fill me in? Dave Landuyt IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8372. . . . . . . . . . . . Black Sheep From: rickcard47 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2012 11:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I see black sheep is discussed all through AAHL. What is black sheep? I did a search and never found a answer. - - - - FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: Some definitions of the phrase "black sheep" in English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_sheep http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/black+sheep.html [51] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/black+sheep [52] Merton M. used this phrase as the title of a book he was writing about Hank Parkhurst, because although Hank was one of the first people to get sober in AA, and was a major leader in convincing early AA people to write and publish the Big Book, he ended up "going bad" (i.e., turning into the "black sheep" of the family), getting drunk, beating his wife, etc., and eventually dying drunk: For references to Merton's book, see for example: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2567 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2572 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2896 Merton's book was about how AA got started in New Jersey, and the role which Hank Parkhurst played in that. Unfortunately, he never finished the book, and it never got published (although I know that Hindsfoot said they would be glad to publish it for him). For more on Hank Parkhurst's life, see his story "The Unbeliever" in the 1st edit. of the Big Book, and websites where they give biographies of the famous early AA members, for example: http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8373. . . . . . . . . . . . Irma Livoni From: planternva2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2012 9:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me what Mrs. Livoni's "crime" was that got her kicked out of AA? The internet is loaded with copies of the letter sent to her by the committee but nothing about the reason. Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8374. . . . . . . . . . . . Pre-A.A. origins of phrase *design for living* From: royslev . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2012 9:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "DESIGN FOR LIVING" -- I went on Oxford Dictionaries online, and I also did a google search, but I haven't yet come up with the definitive history of a phrase Bill W. uses in our Big Book "design for living" that works etc. I did a thread search here on our historylover group and there was mention of the phrase, its usage and meaning and practice, but not the originator or first pre-eminent use of it. Since Bill puts the phrase inside quotation marks, that implied to me that he was quoting from a commonly used phrase which may have had other sources. I totally agree with Bill's idea, I was just curious about who first used this phrase? Was it borrowed from Oxford Group, James Club, or other Christian movement practice? A friend suggest to me that the phrase had its origins with Ernest Shurtleff Holmes (January 21, 1887 – April 7, 1960) who was an American writer and spiritual teacher. He was the founder of a Spiritual movement known as Religious Science, a part of the greater New Thought movement, whose spiritual philosophy is known as "The Science of Mind." Dick B. mentions it in passing in his Oxford Group origins "position paper" on Silkworth.net but doesn't cite the first person or group to use this phase. Is anyone familiar with the origins of this phrase "a design for living?" I don't think I'll have time to read Holmes' books to search for it, but if there's anywhere where someone might have already read these works or looked for the origins of this phrase, it's probably this bulletin board, which is why I'm a member. Grateful for all feedback and leads or info. You can email me at my home email: royslev@verizon.net> (royslev at verizon.net) or at royslev@yahoo.com> (royslev at yahoo.com) Thanks Roy L. "a miracle of mental health" class of '78 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8375. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Black Sheep From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2012 6:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For those who may be interested, a bio of Hank P can be found at the link below. God Bless http://www.bbsgsonj.com/apps/documents/categories/show/90902 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8376. . . . . . . . . . . . Grave found: Harry Zollars, A Close Shave, 1st ed From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2012 9:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As a continued project of locating final resting places of our pioneers and other influential people to our program and fellowship, I have located the grave of Harry D. Zollars, #27 on the "they counted noses" list of Oct 1937, and sobered March 1937. His story "A Close Shave" appears in the 1st ed of the Big Book. His grave is located in Crown Hill Cemetery, Orrville OH. Sec J, Lot 317, SW 1/4, Grave H. I have a map if anyone would like a copy of it. Blessings, Brian IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8377. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pre-A.A. origins of phrase *design for living* From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/15/2012 3:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Noel Coward wrote a play in 1933 called "Design for Living". - - - - FROM GLENN C. The Wikipedia article about this play is worth looking at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_for_Living The article makes it clear that the play was not only well known, but quite notorious because of the way the characters attempted to live totally immoral lives and in the process collided with one another continually. Many people were offended by the play's immorality, in England even more than in the U.S. If we look at the Big Book on page 28, the whole sentence reads: 'A new life has been given us or, if you prefer, "a design for living" that really works.' I think that GC Bailey is right, that one could certainly argue that the Big Book put the phrase design for living in quotation marks to indicate that they were referring to the title of the play, and for that reason immediately added the words "that really works," to indicate that the way of life described in the Big Book (as opposed to the way of life illustrated in the Noel Coward play) actually produced satisfying results. Note also that the play previewed in Cleveland in 1933, three weeks before it opened in New York, and that it had already been turned into a Hollywood movie (starring Gary Cooper and other big names) before the end of 1933, so references to the title of the play were intelligible all over the English-speaking world. At any rate, here are the relevant parts of the wikipedia article (and a summary of the movie version) for those who would like to consider this possibility: =========================================== THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_for_Living Design for Living is a comedy play written by Noël Coward in 1932. It concerns a trio of artistic characters, Gilda, Otto and Leo, and their complicated three-way relationship. Originally written to star Lynn Fontanne, Alfred Lunt and Coward, it was premiered on Broadway, partly because its risqué subject matter was thought unacceptable to the official censor in London. It was not until 1939 that a London production was presented. Design for Living was a success on Broadway in 1933, but it has been revived less often than Coward's other major comedies. Coward said, "it was liked and disliked, and hated and admired, but never, I think, sufficiently loved by any but its three leading actors."[1] The play was adapted into a film in 1933, directed by Ernst Lubitsch, with a screenplay by Ben Hecht, and starring Fredric March, Gary Cooper, and Miriam Hopkins. Of the three principal characters, Coward later commented, "These glib, over-articulate and amoral creatures force their lives into fantastic shapes and problems because they cannot help themselves. Impelled chiefly by the impact of their personalities each upon the other, they are like moths in a pool of light, unable to tolerate the lonely outer darkness but equally unable to share the light without colliding constantly and bruising each other's wings." Design for Living previewed in Cleveland, Ohio on 2 January 1933 and opened in New York on 24 January, at the Ethel Barrymore Theatre on Broadway to popular and critical acclaim. For the opening night, the price of tickets more than quintupled, and the three stars were reported to be receiving record salaries for a Broadway production .... Design for Living was such a success that Coward was prevailed upon to relax his usual rule against appearing in any production for more than three months, and he allowed the play to run for a total of five months. So great were the crowds of fans in the street that special police had to be called in during the last week of the run. =========================================== =========================================== THE MOVIE VERSION: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0023940/ Design for Living (1933) A woman can't decide between two men who love her, and the trio agree to try living together in a platonic friendly relationship. Director: Ernst Lubitsch Fredric March Gary Cooper Miriam Hopkins Storyline Two Americans sharing a flat in Paris, playwright Tom Chambers and painter George Curtis, fall for free-spirited Gilda Farrell. When she can't make up her mind which one of them she prefers, she proposes a "gentleman's agreement": She will move in with them as a friend and critic of their work, but they will never have sex. But when Tom goes to London to supervise a production of one of his plays, leaving Gilda alone with George, how long will their gentleman's agreement last? =========================================== =========================================== VIC KITCHEN, I WAS A PAGAN: And please note the next AAHistoryLovers message, which finds the same phrase being used in Vic Kitchen's "I Was a Pagan" in the same way: put in quotation marks, and with a qualifying phrase indicating that the only design for living that actually worked in real life, was the one which God had designed -- 'God's real "design for living."' =========================================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8378. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pre-A.A. origins of phrase *design for living* From: MichaelD . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2012 10:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not sure of its origin, but here is an early use from the Oxford Group: Vic Kitchen's wrote "I Was a Pagan" in 1934 ... and uses the phrase twice in the book. Vic Kitchen was in the same New York City Oxford Group as Bill Wilson, was in the same age range, and according to Nell Wing, Vic and Bill Wilson were close friends. Design for Living is used in two contexts in the book. CHAPTER XVI THIS BUSINESS OF BEING OF USE TO PEOPLE As I grew, however, I began to find the reality of religion. And as I found that I not only could be born in Christ but could grow in Him day by day and hour by hour, I saw that this reality provided an "escape" of an altogether different nature. It was an escape, not from life, but from death. It was an escape, not from the reality of life, but from the ugliness, delusion, and sin of life — an escape from the unrealities of life and a finding of the underlying beauty, truth and goodness which go to make God's real "design for living." http://bigbookstepstudy.com/content.php?319-I-was-a-Pagan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8379. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholism and the military From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2012 8:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I found this article today and it relates to recent posting about the armed forces and the military. It is graphic but it certainly explains the disease of alcoholism and its effect on the military. I found it a stimulating, informative article. It was featured in today's 4/16/2012 "Early Brief" from newsltr@militnews.com ================================== "Prine's line: The Corps and Demon Alcohol " So, there I was in Townsville, Australia, sniffling with the flu. That put a damper on liberty but not on my libo buddy, a terminal lance corporal who took advantage of my Nyquil sleep to phone a woman he had been dating and sneak her into our suite. This Sheila, a brunette of great beauty but dubious morality, gave my libo buddy the clap. Several days later, I was standing at a rigid position of attention before the First Sergeant, a three-ribbon martinet if there ever was one, who wanted to fry me for failing to prevent this man from contracting a venereal disease by properly deploying his mandatory liberty condom. What I told him then was enough for the commanding officer -- there are many things a fellow Marine owes a buddy, but placing upon him the proper prophylaxis and ensuring that it remains affixed to his Devil Dog during its evening walk is too much to ask of any man, especially when he's asleep. ***** So there I was in the squadbay at K-Bay. Two grunts coming off liberty hated each other and were drunk enough to make good on it. After both came to blows, I jumped between them and broke it up and -- with the help of the firewatch – put them to bed. We then told the corporal of the guard of the incident and he duly logged the idiocy in. The next morning I was standing inexplicably at the rigid position of attention before high-and-tight three ribbons because, no joke, I had been "involved" in an "alcohol related incident." He said that he and the Marine Corps frowned on "ARIs" and that he was "going to send a message this time." Asked what I had to say for myself, I demanded to be charged immediately so that I could pursue trial by court-martial, telling the lifer that Marine prosecutors would focus on his conduct in this affair, not mine, and that I likely would be a witness at his trial. I then requested mast to the company commander because I had not only done nothing wrong but performed those duties that should be expected of any young Marine: I protected others from harm and ensured that my chain of command had been notified of the incident, most especially so that the PFC firewatch wouldn't be blamed for the stupidity of more senior Marines punching each other. The commanding officer thankfully agreed with my perspective, commending me for breaking up the fight and glowering at the First Sergeant for pointlessly dragging me into a disciplinary hearing. Alas, I was a young Marine and had yet to learn that no good deed goes unpunished when the aggressively stupid are promulgating chickensh** regulations that have nothing to do with maintaining good order but instead are designed merely to punish everyone lower in rank and make themselves look good in the process. In the future, however, it wasn't the CO's prudence but rather the First Sergeant's spite that won out. No one would stop any spat or report anyone who needed help with their drinking because they realized that within the maximum effective range of an ARI every decent Marine became a casualty, even if they were stone-cold sober and had done the right thing. Better to keep quiet and out of trouble, letting the lifers drink themselves into a stupor every Friday night at the SNCO Club, we thought. ***** This goes to explain why during my time in the USMC active duty infantry, I watched a grown man pee drunkenly into a broom closet he thought was the head, just as surely as I once watched him pee on another man's head thinking it was the broom closet. I saw men awaken -- terrified -- in the middle of a morning PT run, so drunk on Kinville mojo that they had no recollection of getting dressed or doing the daily dozen an hour before. On the sidewalks of three continents I found Marines so blotto that they couldn't even crawl. I fireman-carried them to the gate and, with others, threw them over -- not the easiest chore, I might add. I stared amazed as naked officers brain-crazy from rainbows tried to shimmy up the drain pipe to a whorehouse. Then there was my buddy who thought he saw "Venusians" invading the base, which is why he sought shelter atop our roof, right next to the Christmas tree built out of Bud cans that were topped with a fifth of Jack, something of a down-on-his-luck angel. Happy holidays from the Corps! But please don't forget the fist fight in Tokyo caused when a gaggle of Brazilian sumo wrestlers bumped into us on a dance floor. Or my normally excellent squadleader who always had a bad reaction to Wild Turkey and twice tried to crawl through a window to smack anyone on the other side who looked funny at him. What do all these things have in common? That's right. Liquor, and a culture of over-consumption so pervasive that my platoon created a drinking game for Jeopardy, with each right answer equaling a shot so that by the audio daily double the smart guys were on the same level as the ASVAB waivers destined, someday, to become First Sergeants. I was the kind of guy who held my own with liquor and kept his cool -- largely because I didn't binge drink -- and the Marine Corps was the kind of place where bingeing not only was tolerated but was treated as something of a joke, a rite of passage or, well, just a God-given right. And it all was pretty funny until a senior NCO decided that there was an "ARI" he could make go away while burnishing his own lifer fitreps -- which is to say by burning junior Marines even if they really had nothing to do with any of it. When I became a leader I rightly considered the lifers the enemy and my job became to protect my Marines from them -- when I wasn't protecting them from themselves. They helped me by watching out for each other when on the town, calling me in the barracks if they needed help and otherwise remembering that we always were a team first and that teams care about each other, even if the lifers didn't give a damn about any of us. "I'm not your fireteam leader," I told them before libo. "I'm your fireteam friend. If you need help, call. I'll come get you." ***** Yesterday, I was sent "Post Midnight Liberty Planning," a very odd document prepared by U.S. Marine Corps Col. J. M. Jansen and promulgated for the Marine Aircraft Group 11 at MCAS Miramar. I've converted it from a pdf to a word doc and you can read it here. According to Jansen, MAG 11 has been beset by a scourge of ARIs, beer-soaked moments of indiscipline he terms "enemies," just as their confederates include "peer pressure" and "fatigue." They've been particularly good at setting ambushes in the bewitching hours between midnight and dawn. In over-the-top language that borrows from the age-old METT-T planning matrix, the good colonel describes the taverns frequented by Marines as a "threat sector" and proposes a new "mission" that will safeguard his personnel from "battle damage to ones' physical person and/or careers." Because colonels are by nature bureaucrats who move papers from one end of their desk to the other, Jansen has drawn up a METT-T Liberty Worksheet for the chain of command to follow. It identifies those suspected "enemies," the Marines' "troops and support" around to fight them, not to mention the "terrain and weather" and "time" elements to be overcome during the liberty "mission," much like a commander and his GIs must surmount the friction of battle. To make it so, superiors in Miramar formally counsel any junior who plans on staying out after midnight. Together they confect these worksheets and retain them in a file that quickly shall grow to be the size of the Chicago Yellow Pages -- at least if MAG 11 drinks like my former platoon did. Some might think that I'm going to call out the skipper. I won't. He's obviously trying to nip the number of ARIs, data he can see every morning when he arrives for work, during an era when the Navy brass have such a boner for boozers that they want to randomly test with a breathalyzer hundreds of thousands of Marines and sailors when they report for duty. I have no doubt that Col. Jensen cares deeply about his troops. He worries about their safety and he likely over the decades has attended too many funerals of Marines who died at the wheel. Or he had to enter the jailhouse in town to spring a sailor who wrote a check with his lips his liver couldn't cash, apologizing to the authorities for that shameful moment of misconduct. Col. Jensen is watching booze claim more of his Marines than the Taliban and he's trying to corral the problem the best way that he knows how. I'll never second guess him because I don't rate to do so and I bet you don't, too. ***** My beef with my former Marines is that they're looking at the problem all wrong. MAG 11 has declared war on "ARIs," but do they realize that ARIs are just drunken canaries chirping in a booze-swamped coal mine? Heavy alcohol use (five or more drinks per occasion at least once a week, four if you're a woman) has exploded in all the services. About 15 percent of the force in 1998 drank heavily; it rose to 20 percent in 2005 and 2008, according to the Survey of Health Related Behaviors Among Active Duty Military Personnel (or "HRB" ). To put that into some perspective, that has returned the level of liquor consumption to what service members used to put away in ye olden days of 1980, when DoD first began the HRB survey. But the Marine Corps has been the drunkest of the lot. Routine heavy drinking in the Corps rose from 25 percent of its members in 2005 to 29 percent three years later. To put that into some perspective, the next highest gain was recorded by the Air Force,from 10 percent to 14 percent. Flyboys, the Marines drink you under the table. And they'll drink the table if it's higher than 80 proof and mixes well enough with scotch. We know from the surveys across all the services that E1s to E3s binge only slightly more than their NCOs E-4 to E-6, leaders who drink hard and fast about 40 percent more often than their more senior non-commissioned officers. Warrant officers binge more than junior commissioned officers, and those who guzzle the least are like Col. Jansen -- officers between O-4 to O-10. We know from the studies that if you want to draw the poster child for DoD drunkenness, it would be a young, unmarried enlisted man between the ranks of private and staff sergeant, usually with a high school degree or less, and he's wearing the Eagle, Globe and Anchor. Extrapolating from Army studies, we likely could say that the drinking is worse amongst infantrymen like I used to be and "craftsworkers" in the shops, especially if they're young, single and white, like those in Miramar. The problem, researchers found, wasn't so much that these guys were prone to drinking. Rather, they're given to all sorts of risk-taking, including speeding, smoking and driving without wearing seat belts. While heavily supervised, infantry toil even during peacetime is very stressful and those who are inherently drawn to it are young, male daredevils, the same sort of people who drink, fight and carouse when they're blowing off steam. I suspect this sort of conduct is quite similar to the Marines in the Wing who, although never grunts, still face a great deal of occupational stress and are from the sort of demographic that veers toward taking stupid risks, often with a drink in their mitts and a cigarette dangling from their lips. The Marine Corps has studied this issue and suggested the "work hard, play hard" culture of aviators is perhaps to blame. One might as well mention at this moment that my beautiful Corps was born in a tavern, too, which might suggest something. To be fair to the Corps, the tavern was in Philadelphia and there's not much else to do there. ***** It's very easy for commanders to point to ARIs. They're tabulated and presented to the commander in any chart he desires. They fit easily onto PowerPoint slides and junior officers are eager to color them to any colonel's preference. Navy Achievement Medals have been issued for lesser accomplishments, and I bet someone at the Pentagon can show you a pretty PowerPoint slide to prove it. While the charts wouldn't covert to a document I could load here, I can tell you that MAG 11 notched what appears to be 74 alcohol-related incidents last year, of which 33 involved driving. It's been some time since I checked, but I estimate the size of MAG 11 at about 3,400 Marines and sailors or thereabouts at any given time. So that's about one ARI per 45 Marines and sailors, with a drunk-driving incident for every 103 personnel. That's actually pretty similar to the rate of DUI arrests in California -- one out of every 105 licensed motorists, although San Diego is notorious for cracking down on drunk drivers. Of those ARIs in Miramar, 54 transpired between midnight and 0600. Or slightly more than one per week last year. So to prevent one ARI per week, 3,400 adults will need to divulge often quite private details to their chain of command and fill out what I bet would be about 1,000 pages or more of paperwork every Friday and spend perhaps half as many man hours counseling Marines and sailors. All to prevent one ARI amongst a population of over-stressed risk takers who haven't responded to other forms of suasion already. ***** Now, some shall say that if one life can be saved, one career preserved, one suicide prevented or one wife protected from abuse then it's all worth it. Others might say that this is just another example of chickensh** regulations that are merely decorative and do nothing to tackle the more serious problems dogging the Corps. In the balance between preventing an ARI and burdening sections with even more forms and wasted hours, they'll say that it's weighted too far toward intrusive paperwork. But I won't tell you which one is right because frankly I don't know. What I suspect, however, is that they're doing this because it's easy. Or, I should put it, easier than getting to the heart of two other crises: 1. The bureaucratization of every element of military life, to the point that even what a man and his wife do on the weekends is duly recorded, placed in a permanent file and preserved in case UCMJ action is necessary. And, 2. The larger public health problem caused by the Marine Corps' culture of "work hard, play hard" boozing. Just as it's easy to record ARIs and suicides, it's quite difficult to detect and treat mental illness, and they're not really doing that well in the Corps or anywhere else in the military anyway. Why do line commanders notice the fat bodies in their ranks and pounce on them as a health concern but do nothing about tobacco use? Because they can spot the chubby in his Service A uniform but they can't get a squint at his lungs, that's why. Remember the Air Force, that other service that's drinking a lot more? It annually records about 5,300 alcohol-related incidents as second -- and third-order consequences of the boozing. But not all ARIs are the same. A third of all Air Force suicides involve liquor, as do a quarter of their domestic abuse cases. Air Force surveys also have found that many of those who drink heavily do so to self-medicate. They increasingly display symptoms of acute stress disorder, depression and other ailments tied to returning from a deployment. Larger numbers of airmen also have experienced combat in recent years because they're filling roles overseas once reserved for ground pounders. This drinking often comes to mask more serious underlying problems such as major depression or bipolar disorder. We also know from studies over the past decade that the more deployments -- and the more combat -- personnel have seen, the more likely they are to drink and abuse drugs. Now I'm not saying that ARIs aren't important, especially because so many involve drunk driving. They're also embarrassing to a Marine Corps that rightly prides itself on discipline and wants to keep the troops safe. What I'm suggesting is that the Corps possibly could get more out the exercise by forgetting the blotter reports and cutting to the core of why so many young men and women are drinking more and more often -- it's because of the mental and marital problems bedeviling the Devil Dogs 11 years into a long war, the same underlying issues that were identified in the Air Force research. What if MAG 11 were to spend just as many pages and counseling hours finding out why nearly one out of every 10 married female Marines will get divorced this year, three times the national average? Maybe the chain of command would realize that they could do something to help her and her husband sort it out before the couple drank to forget it all. Or what if commanders sussed out why one out of every three male Marines who reported PTSD in theater didn't get the help they needed in recent years? They might find that the heavy drinking masks the deeper wound, right? They'll have to overcome the 50 percent of Marines who think that they'll be perceived as weak by their chain of command and peers -- ruining their careers -- if they admit to having mental health problems. I guess it's just easier to say that you're staying late at Hooters with the guys while promising that you'll take a cab back. Maybe a commander staying late at work, scrutinizing all those thousands of METT-T oplans targeting the "enemies" out in town , will start to ask how many reams of paper it takes before even one liberty form becomes the basis for getting Marines the substance abuse treatment that they need on base? Even if that care cuts into the availability of Marines for deployment and training? I suspect not very many because it's been the trend to forgo the help, perhaps because one out of five service-members will tell researchers that a commander discourages him from getting it. What about the fact that a third of the other-than-honorable discharges coming from the Corps in recent years involved Marines who previously received mental health illness diagnoses? How many of them got treatment before the Marines cut them loose? Or that one out of every 20 Marines is so profoundly unhappy that he'll think about killing himself this year? That's about twice the rate of those Marines who will be tagged for ARIs this year at Miramar. Where are the forms for the suicidal? Who is going to reach out for them? If MAG 11 wants the chain of command to start to own the Corps' drinking problem by using METT-T to identify substance abuse and link young men and women to the help that they need, then I'll clap louder than anyone while praising their efforts. If it's just to clear a couple of blotter entries every month, however, I've got to wonder what the point of all this is, except to create a CYA paper trail that will indict junior Marines for the very sort of behavior others in the chain are doing. All I know is that I never met one decent fireteam leader who wasn't also a fireteam friend. And maybe my Corps needs to learn that valuable lesson before they start filling out another stack of paperwork or discharging a drunk who probably could've averted the OTH and been a pretty good Marine if someone had just gotten him the help that he needed first before handing him cab fare. I'll drink to that." ================================== Your's in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa. USA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8380. . . . . . . . . . . . Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2012 12:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mel B celebrated 62 years of sobriety on 4/15/12. His contributions to our group and to our fellowship cannot be overestimated. It seems appropriate that something be posted here. - - - - See AAHL message #1629: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1629 An email which Mel Barger sent to Nancy Olson on Jan. 30, 2004: "I haven't had a drink since I fully accepted the program on April 15, 1950." - - - - Also see AAHL message #6431 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6431 Mel B. and Tom D. 60 years sobriety dinner! Mel B. (Toledo, Ohio) and Tom D. (Lima, Ohio) will be present to answer questions .... at the "Gratitude for our Sobriety" dinner in Wapakoneta, Ohio Both men obtained the gift of sobriety in April 1950, and have 60 years of sobriety each. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8381. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Grave found: Harry Zollars, A Close Shave, 1st ed From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2012 1:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you Brian, Many AA history websites have wrong info about Harry, even the Akron Archives website. See below for important historical information that details who Harry was and who he is confused with. Harry Zollars: "A CLOSE SHAVE" – 1st Edition page 348. Most web sites and historians have connected Harry Zollars, the Orrville barber, with Henry J. Zoeller a Class "B" Trustee who served in the mid 1950s. See but one example: http://akronaaarchives.org/history/20henryJ_story.htm This is in fact an error. Harry D. Zollars b. 1890 d. December 10, 1960 Orrville, Ohio Harry D. Zollars, whose birth year matches our friend Harry's in the Big Book, was from Orrville, Ohio (just outside of Akron). He is listed on the First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group: http://www.hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc with an Orrville address (Orville [sic] Barber Shop) although the spelling of his name on this list (as well as the names of several others) is incorrect. Source Info, 1920 United States Federal Census God Bless, John B. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote: > > As a continued project of locating final resting places of our pioneers and other influential people to our program and fellowship, I have located the grave of Harry D. Zollars, #27 on the "they counted noses" list of Oct 1937, and sobered March 1937. His story "A Close Shave" appears in the 1st ed of the Big Book. > > His grave is located in Crown Hill Cemetery, Orrville OH. Sec J, Lot 317, SW 1/4, Grave H. I have a map if anyone would like a copy of it. > > Blessings, > > Brian IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8382. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2012 2:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Baileygc, jax760, John Kenney, CBBB164, and Glenn C. - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) For some strange reason, Mel seems reasonably sane. (If you cannot post this, please forward). [From Glenn C., the moderator: Mel will love that! Probably the highest praise that only a handful of near saints in the program will ever receive] - - - - From: "jax760" jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) Happy Birthday Mel! - - - - From: JOHN KENNEY jfk92452000@yahoo.com> (jfk92452000 at yahoo.com) Please wish Mel and Tom a heart felt happy birthday from all of us in Virginia! - - - - From: CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM) Thanks, Mel for your dedication to our cause and the example you have demonstrated. Cliff - - - - From: Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) I think it's O.K. to bend the rules just a little bit here, and post some information about Mel, for members of the AAHistoryLovers who do not know who he is. When it comes time to write a history of AA that extends the story past Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, there will have to be a section on Mel B., as one of the truly wise and admirable AA leaders and authors of the movement's "second generation." You can find material about him on the web: http://www.facebook.com/mel.barger1 http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mel-Bargers-Writings/111482742211343?sk=photos http://walkindryplaces.com/ If you want to listen to one Mel's leads, where he talks about his life and experiences, contact Blueprint Tapes and ask for a cd of Mel B. from Toledo, Ohio, speaking at the Michiana Conference in South Bend on September 15, 2007: Blueprint Tapes 960 Morgan St., Clinton, Indiana 47842 email: BlueprintTapes@aol.com phone: 765-832-9971 And I am sure that there are other leads he has given which are available from other organizations which record AA speakers, because he has spoken quite a bit over the years. BOOKS HE HAS AUTHORED: Mel B. was the principal author of the Pass It On, the conference-published biography of Bill W. (1984) Mel B., Walk in Dry Places (1996) Mel B. & Bill P., The 7 Key Principles of Successful Recovery (1999) Mel B., New Wine: The Spiritual roots of the Twelve Step Miracle (1991) -- Nell Wing, Bill W.’s longtime secretary, explained that Mel’s long friendships with Bill W. and AA enabled him to discuss meaningfully AA’s early history and Bill’s special qualities of leadership and guidance. New Wine reviews the movements and spiritual ideas that led to AA’s founding and growth, with special emphasis on Carl Jung, Frank Buchman, Sam Shoemaker and religious leaders Harry Emerson Fosdick, Father Edward Dowling and Emmet Fox. Mel B., My Search for Bill W. (2000) Mel B., Ebby The Man Who sponsored Bill W. (1998) Mel B., 101 Meeting Starters: A Guide to Better Twelve Step Discussions (2007) Mel B., Three Recovery Classics: As a Man Thinketh (by James Allen), The Greatest Thing in the World (by Henry Drummond), An Instrument of Peace (the St. Francis Prayer) (2004) PLUS A HUGE NUMBER OF ARTICLES IN THE GRAPEVINE WHICH WERE WRITTEN OVER THE YEARS. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8383. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 From: Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2012 5:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I met Mel at GSO NY in 2006 when he spoke at the staff's weekly AA meeting. At the time, I was editor of 'Share' magazine, the British equivalent of 'Grapevine', and I invited Mel to contribute an occasional Letter from America for British readers. This is the Letter he wrote for the August 2006 issue. THE STAYING POWER OF AA The passing of Chauncey C., of Pontiac, Michigan, reminded me that AA recoveries can have 'staying power' when an individual is sincerely committed to the goal of maintaining sobriety and continues to follow the program and practice the principles. Chauncey was such a person and had 64 years' continuous sobriety when he passed away on 11 May, 2006, at age 95. The notice in the local newspaper said that he was recognised as the longest living active member of AA. That was also acknowledged last year at AA's International Convention in Toronto, where he arrived in a wheelchair but still displayed the energy and enthusiasm that had been evident throughout his AA experience. I marvel at the way our own paths crossed in 1950 and '51 and again in 2005 and '06. At the earliest time, in 1950, I had moved to Pontiac from my native Nebraska, where I had finally found sobriety during seven weeks as a patient in a state mental hospital. I was 25, but John Barleycorn had battered me so ferociously that I was able to surrender my problem to God and AA. I found my staying power and have been sober for more than 56 years. Somebody told me that there was a good meeting at Pontiac's All Saints' Episcopal Church, and that's where I met Chauncey in 1950. With nine years' sobriety, he was one of the old-timers in that day of AA's youth. I was awed by this example and wondered if I would want to continue attending AA meetings that long. And would one feel that he 'had it made' after so much time in the program! I moved to another city and saw Chauncey only once or twice in the next 50 years. But I always heard reports that he was still active in the program and still working with newcomers. As I began to write for 'Grapevine', I often thought I should drive up to Pontiac and interview him. But I was always too busy, something I regret today. The opportunity did come some months ago when a man in New York who is developing an AA documentary movie asked me to help him get in touch with Chauncey. We drove to Pontiac and interviewed Chauncey. Though he was ailing by this time, he gave us a colorful account of the events that brought him into the program in 1941 and how it worked for him over the years. It's a story that should become part of AA history. I saw Chauncey one more time. Amazingly, it was at a meeting at the All Saints' Episcopal Church in Pontiac, where I had first met him in 1950. We reminisced about the old days and the wonderful friends we'd had who are now in the Big Meeting in the Sky. We were both grateful for those wonderful way-showers and path-finders. Chauncey has now joined them, and I praise the staying power he demonstrated over the years. MEL B., Toledo, Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8384. . . . . . . . . . . . Chauncey C. and Mel B. -- speaking in Michigan in 2005 From: cherieanne40 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2012 8:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chauncey carried the message right up to the end. I recall seeing Chauncey at the 2005 International Convention, but I really met him the first time at the Gratitude Meeting in November 2005 ( I think it was the 63rd annual Gratitude meeting which Chauncey helped to start in the Detroit area) just months before his death. He was one of the speakers and although he did not speak long, his message was still powerful. He talked of his wife and children and his love for AA and how AA was when he came into the program so many years ago and how without AA he would not be sober sitting there on that stage that day. I feel very blessed to have met this AA Pioneer and know I will meet him again one day at the Big Meeting in Heaven. I first met Mel B. many years ago when he came to my area to speak. I actually first met Mel online and learned to know him via emails. I have seen him speak in this area a few times now, the last was a few years ago when he spoke on a panel with a few other people. After he spoke he sat down with his wife, a lovely woman, and started nodding off. LOL Two photos with Mel B taken in Royal Oak, MI sit on my shelf in my home office, one with Mel, myself and my first sponsor Mary P., and one with Mel and Chief Blackhawk, another longtimer in the Detroit area. Another photo that sits on that shelf is Mary P and James Houck taken in 2003. All of these people were so helpful to my own sobriety. When I read stories about them here on AAHL I am reminded that AA DOES work!!! Cherie' H. Warren, MI IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8385. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chauncey C. and Mel B. -- speaking in Michigan in 2005 From: rriley9945@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2012 11:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At the 2005 International Convention, Chauncey was on a young people's panel with a 16 year old--- if I remember her age correctly. I was able to talk with him afterwards. He was a direct link with to Archie T. who started AA in Detroit. One of the best memories I have of that convention. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8386. . . . . . . . . . . . AA World Library literature From: the_wee_ladd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2012 2:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have come across a booklet published by the AA World Library No. 122 Copyright 1970. The title is "Am I Drinking Too Much?" by Doyle F. Lindley and Robert T. Dorris. I can not find it in the library archive, can someone familiar with this literature assist me with its identification etc. Respectfully IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8387. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 From: the_wee_ladd . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2012 9:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mel B. If not for the Oldtimers we that came after would not be enriched with the knowledge of a sober life. Congrats Mel on a job well done. We will meet you in the fellowship of the Spirit. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8388. . . . . . . . . . . . AA and the Quakers in early British AA From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2012 10:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A new article on the close links between Alcoholics Anonymous and the Quakers in early British AA: Laurie Andrews, Liberal Quakerism and 12 step spirituality: realised universalism? An article from Friends Quarterly (2012, No. 2). "In December 1948 the first five AA members in Manchester realised they would need a telephone contact for enquirers. 'They approached the Friends Meeting House at Mount Street. The Friends agreed to allow their telephone number to be used as a contact, and meetings of the first Manchester AA group were begun at Mount Street.'" http://hindsfoot.org/quaker.pdf It is included in the section on A.A. Historical Materials Part 2 http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html In the section on EARLY BRITISH AA: In March 1947 American AA member Grace O., visiting London with her husband, the writer Fulton Oursler, convened a meeting for eight people in her room at the Dorchester hotel in London, the first recorded AA meeting in Britain, etc. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8389. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA and the Quakers in early British AA From: Bryan S. Reid . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2012 1:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you! That's fascinating. This is wandering a bit off topic, but once I figured out (not the sharpest tool in the shed) that spirituality (relationship with a higher power) was how I was going to stay sober, I jumped into it headfirst and have never looked back. One of the earlier books I read was "A Quaker Book Of Wisdom: Life Lessons In Simplicity, Service, And Common Sense" by Robert Lawrence Smith. Its similarity to the program is uncanny. It is still one of my favorite books and I reread it at least 2 times a year. I don't know how many copies I've bought and given away. It doesn't surprise me in the least that the Quakers would identify with our program. It's like the Jesuits seeing the parallels between the Steps and the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius. Thanks again for these two links. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8390. . . . . . . . . . . . Memories of Sybil Corwin, from someone she sponsored From: Masterman . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2012 1:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a copy of a tape of Sybil Corwin from January 14th, 1984 recorded in Riverside, Calif. I had met Sybil Wed, Jan 11th, 1984 and offered to drive her to a meeting on Sat Night, thought we were going to Glendale Windsor Club where I met her but she gave me a map to Riverside where she was the speaker that night. I had no idea who she was, as at the first meeting I heard her at, she hadn't mentioned that she was coming up on her 43rd AA birthday in March that year. They made a tape of that night, and Sybil talked about her friend who lived in Riverside, who had just died, I think his name was Dick Greggory, and he had a wife Alma Greggory I believe. If anyone knows how I can get a copy of that tape (mine was destroyed in hurricane katrina) I would be so grateful. Sybil sort of appointed herself as my sponsor as I guess she saw I was lost and needed her direction and knowledge and basically because she was such a kind and loving person. We just clicked and she made me laugh and I felt like a sponge, soaking up every word that she said . When she started sponsoring me, when you got Sybil you also got Bob sort of as sort of a bonus sponsor, and they ended up co-sponsoring me as Sybil would often say "You should speak to Bob about that, he has more experience with that than I do" She was very humble about the length of sobriety, and used to say "the only reason I'm sober so long is that I found AA before other people did". I was so lucky to get to hear her speak for the hour a day I'd spend driving her to whatever meeting she was speaking at, then got to hear her at the meeting, then listen to her at fellowship, after the meeting, and then for the hour car ride home each night, so I started to know her story better than she did. She got her first meeting date mixed up, and used to say her AA Birthday was 3/23/1941, but I looked up the Friday back in 1941 and it was actually March 21st, which I heard her say in earlier tapes from the 70's. She and Bob had a unique bit of knowledge as Sybil came in before AA had it's 12 Traditions. Bob came in, in 1948, and after 15 yrs of relapses of our disease, got sober the last time in October of 1963 until his death in May of 2008. 44 consecutive years sober. His wealth of knowledge came not only from that, but from 15 yrs of relapses, during which he had One year 5 times Two years, 2 times and Three years, 1 time, plus many shorter periods, broken up, even though he was really trying. So he knew more about what "NOT TO DO" as he did "What to do" in order to prevent relapses. He was most open about all the mistakes he had made, and what didn't work. He said his relapses were like "Coming to the back door of a Mansion you had once owned and having to ask for a handout" They were among the most kind, most real, most honest, most selfless, and loving people that I had ever met in AA. Like Alabam Carothers, like Marie Stinner, and like Jayne Grey, all, along with Bob and Sybil watched over me, and would spend hours telling me about what AA was like when they came into AA I was very fortunate as I found out that they would almost always say "Yes" when I asked them if I could drive them to the next meeting that they were speaking at. I used to love to drive them to meetings or conventions, roundups, area get togethers, where they would be the speaker or one of the speakers for those events. I got them alone, for stories, for questions had, etc for one hour driving to the meeting, as well as listening to their talk, learned all sorts of stuff then and afterwards at fellowship, and then again for a private hour or so driving home. I could not get "too full" of them. I was just loving every word I heard, every story about AA that they had to tell. Sybil always asked me to walk her to the bathroom before she was speaking. After a few weeks of driving her to meetings almost every night (Bob was recovering from heart bypass surgery and Sybil had cataracts and couldn't drive anymore) I went to a convention that she was speaking at. Before she was to speak she asked me to walk with her, and there was an empty room and she went into it and said "Matt I need to kneel down, will you help me, please give me your hand" and she took my hand and steadied herself on my arm. She was all of 105 lbs, and I was 6'3" and about 220 lbs. As she knelt down she asked me to do the same next to her. Still holding her hand she bowed her head down and began speaking "Dear God, these wonderful people spent a lot of their hard earned cash to fly me here and pay for my hotel room, so when I speak, please help me be useful to someone, and please make me adequate, Amen" Then she asked me to help her up. Here she was, 76 yrs old, and 43 yrs sober and she's asking God to help her be "adequate". She taught me to always say the same prayer before I spoke at a meeting, or when I listen to a 4th step, I always kneel down with my sponsee and ask God to help the work we do together to be useful in helping us to be more compassionate, more understanding, more forgiving, more helpful, patient and loving to all the people in our lives and to help us continue to stay sober, and please God accept our thanks and gratitude for our sobriety and helping us live the AA way of life. Sometimes people I sponsored would like to say, or think of Bob and Sybil as their "grand-sponsors", as was a common name for your sponsors sponsor. I used to think that was silly, as if you think about it, Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob are technically everyone's sort of "great-great-great-etc-grandsponsor. When I wasn't sure about something, or wanted to have a sponsee hear something directly from Bob or Sybil I would often call them and put them on speakerphone so that they could hear a story or lesson direct from Bob or Sybil, rather than hearing it 2nd hand through me, and sometimes we would all go with them to meetings as I bought a limo that seated 9 people. It felt like a magical and blessed time when we were together. Sybil and Bob explained things in a way that I've never heard from anyone else,, Like when they told me about Irma Livoni and how she was the first woman to be kicked out of A.A. in Los Angeles, in 1941, just before Pearl Harbor and World War II, long before AA had the 12 traditions. Here's the story of Irma Livoni and picture of Sybil (at this link) http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-irma_livoni.html Feel free to write me at pupmasters@yahoo.com if you'd like any other information that I might remember about Bob or Sybil Corwin. Much AA love to you all, Matt Masterman now moved from Los Angeles and living in Boynton Beach Florida IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8391. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W's feelings on alcoholics who don't go to meetings From: marathonmanric . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2012 11:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group, I recently heard a tape of a speaker who mentioned that Bill was either asked or volunteered information as to his feelings on people that get sober in AA but don't go to meetings. What I heard is that Bill said, in effect, that he has little to do with them because they are not grateful. Has anyone heard this statement and if so is it documented in print or tape? Thank you for your consideration. Ric IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8392. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA World Library literature From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2012 11:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA World Library? How can I find out more about this? - - - - On Apr 27, 2012, at 7:47 AM, the_wee_ladd thetwobarretts@eastlink.ca> wrote: > I have come across a booklet published by the AA World Library No. 122 Copyright 1970. The title is "Am I Drinking Too Much?" by Doyle F. Lindley and Robert T. Dorris. I can not find it in the library archive, can someone familiar with this literature assist me with its identification etc. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8393. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA World Library literature From: MichaelD . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2012 8:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "the_wee_ladd" wrote: > > I have come across a booklet published by the AA World Library No. 122 Copyright 1970. The title is "Am I Drinking Too Much?" by Doyle F. Lindley and Robert T. Dorris. I can not find it in the library archive, can someone familiar with this literature assist me with its identification etc. ____________________________________________ The book you search by ISBN, it does not appear to be published by the AA world Library though. ISBN 0915082020 http://www.worldcat.org/title/am-i-drinking-too-much/oclc/1959257 There's not much information on Doyle Lindley, but Robert Dorris was a well known national figure in the treatment of alcoholism. He founded Dorris.com , and founded the California Association of Substance abuse counselors in 1967, which went on to become The National Association of Addiction Counselors in 1974, of which Robert Dorris was the first President. Today it has 75,000 members and is the largest organization of its kind in the world. http://www.naadac.org/ For thirty years, DORRIS helped organizations manage their most valuable assets -- their employees. Our founder, Robert T. Dorris Sr., worked for 20 years in alcoholism education and treatment prior to entering the field of occupational alcoholism programming, the forerunner of today's employee assistance programs. In 1970 he joined McDonnell-Douglas to develop their corporate employee assistance program.In 1974, he founded DORRIS as one of the first external providers of employee assistance services. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8394. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More on Mark Whalon From: Ernie Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2012 4:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Les, Many thanks for the inscribed and autographed copy of your Rogers Burnham book. I acknowledge so slowly because I was in hospital and rehab since March 9th and remain disabled though now at home since yesterday. You have given us a final detailed piece of research. ernie kurtz On Mar 31, 2012, at 4:13 PM, LES COLE wrote: > The US Census for 1910 shows the following: > > John M Whalon > Age 23 Male White American > Est Birth year 1887 > Birth location: Dorset, Bennington,VT > > Relation to Head: Son > Head of household: William C. > > Other people in household: > William Whalon: 56 Yrs, Male, Father > Rose Whalon: 48 yrs, Female, Mother > William Whalon: 27 yrs, Male, Sibling > Mary Whalon: 18 yrs, Female > > Father's First Name: William C. > Father's Last Name: Whalon > Father's Birthplace: Vermont > Mother's First Name: Rose K. > Mother's Birthplace: Scotland > > Marital Status: Single > > Sheet: ASheet number: 12 > Collection: 1910 U.S. Federal Population Census IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8395. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred From: bobhickey674 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2012 10:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I checked out your list and you seem to have missed Bill Ames of Virginia who got sober in 1938 - - - - > > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY > > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron > > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron > > 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron > > 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ > > 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron > > 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron > > 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD > > 9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT > > 10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron > > 11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron > > 12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron > > 13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY > > 14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland > > 15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland > > 16 Harry Latta Jul-36 Akron > > 17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron > > 18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron > > 19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron > > 20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron > > 21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ > > 22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ > > 23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron > > 24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron > > 25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland > > 26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron > > 27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron > > 28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron > > 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron > > 30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland > > 31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland > > 32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron > > 33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron > > 34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ > > 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron > > 36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron > > 37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ > > 38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron > > 39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron > > 40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron > > 41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron > > 42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ > > 43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron > > 44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron > > 45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron > > 46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron > > 47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY > > 48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron > > 49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron > > 50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron > > 51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron > > 52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron > > 53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron > > 54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron > > 55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron > > 56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron > > 57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron > > 58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron > > 59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron > > 60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY > > 61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland > > 62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland > > 63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY > > 64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY > > 65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT > > 66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY > > 67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY > > 68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron > > 69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY > > 70 Robert Taylor May38 NY > > 71 George Williams Jun-38 NY > > 72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ > > 73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA > > 74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY > > 75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI > > 76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY > > 77 James Scott Sep38 Akron > > 78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron > > 79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland > > 80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland > > 81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY > > 82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland > > 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron > > 84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron > > 85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ > > 86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron > > 87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ > > 88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ > > 89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY > > 90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ > > 91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA > > 92 William Worton Feb39 NY > > 93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY > > 94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ > > 95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ > > 96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ > > 97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ > > 98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ > > 99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ > > 100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ > > > > Other Names - Shortly after April 1st or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers > > Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard > > Brooke B Shep Cornell > > Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves > > Alec Johnson Ned Foote > > Gordon S. Russell Rathbone > > Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins > > Ernie Gerig Marty Mann > > John Reese Albert Golrick > > Harry Nash Grenville Curtis > > Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans > > Don McClean Oscar Vieths > > Rowland Jones Bill Cousins > > Sterling Parker Joe Mina > > Tom Pierce Jackie Williams IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8396. . . . . . . . . . . . Winchester cathedral From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2012 2:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA pilgrimage sites outside the U.S. The tombstone of the Hampshire Grenadier outside Winchester cathedral, I have been told, is starting to turn into something like Dr. Bob and Anne Smith's gravesite in Akron. ======================================= Laurie Andrews in England reports jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) "Winchester cathedral .... sells postcards of the Hampshire Grenadier tombstone and during the annual convention at Winchester there is a pilgrimage to the grave and people gather round it and recite the Serenity prayer." ======================================= We all know the story -- Winchester cathedral in England was the site where the young Bill W. had a moving experience of the sacred dimension of reality -- the scene that appears on the opening page of Chapter One of the Big Book, and is referred to again on both pages 10 and 12. See the photographs of the magnificent interior of this beautiful medieval building at the top of the page at http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html and at the top and middle of the page at http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html This is not a completely new practice among English AA's. When Nancy Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, went to England to give a talk at Bristol a number of years ago, I remember her telling me how the British AA people took her to Winchester to visit the stone, and what an unforgettable impression it made upon her. (There are a couple of photos of Nancy in Bristol at the bottom of this webpage: http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aapix02.html ) _________________________________________ I do have a question, just as a matter of curiosity: are there other places outside the U.S., in Europe or elsewhere, where AA people are starting to make visits, just to pay their respects, or to try to feel a little bit of what it must have been like to have been at that spot back in the old days? Sister Ignatia's birthplace, which was discovered after a lot of fine detective work, by Irish AA historian Fiona D., from county Mayo, would be a beautiful place to visit -- see Fiona's photographs at http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html But I should imagine that getting to that isolated spot, even if you were already in Ireland, could be fairly difficult. _________________________________________ European AA people live in cultures where there are often a large number of people who do not believe in a personal God, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism The majority of people still believe in a personal God in some countries: 90% in Romania 80% in Poland 74% in Italy 73% in Ireland But less than half the population are believers in many other countries: 47% in Germany 43% in Belgium 38% in the U.K. 34% in France and the Netherlands 32% in Norway 31% in Denmark 23% in Sweden 19% in the Czech Republic But in the countries where most of the people no longer believe in God, there are often a surprisingly large number of people who believe in some sort of spirit or life force: 53% in Sweden 50% in the Czech Republic 49% in Denmark 47% in Norway 40% in the U.K. 37% in the Netherlands 29% in Belgium 27% in France 25% in Germany _________________________________________ For this reason, it would probably be a good idea to point out that Mel Barger asked Bill Wilson on more than one occasion, what happened in that memorable spiritual experience he had in Towns Hospital, and Bill W. said that it was what his era of history called "cosmic consciousness" or "cosmic religious feeling." Bill referred Mel to the famous book by the Canadian psychiatrist Richard Maurice Bucke, "Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind." ALBERT EINSTEIN Modern Europeans who are atheists might find what Bill W. experienced at Winchester cathedral more understandable by reading a piece written by the famous German-Swiss physicist Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930, 1-4. In the following paragraphs, I give a brief outline of that article and a few excerpts. It may be read online at: http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm EINSTEIN ON COSMIC RELIGIOUS FEELING 1. The first stage in the development of religion was a fear-based religion: primitive people attempted to secure the favor of imaginary personal beings, called gods and goddesses or spirits, by performing actions and sacrifices directed by a priestly caste. 2. The second stage was moral religion, seen in the Jewish scriptures and the Christian New Testament: belief in a single personal God who is moral and loving. Both of these forms of religion believe in anthropomorphic gods and spirits, that is, supernatural beings which are persons and think and act like human beings. 3. The third stage is cosmic religious feeling. "It is very difficult to elucidate this feeling," Einstein said, "as there is no anthropomorphic conception of God corresponding to it." "The individual feels the futility of human desires and aims and the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world of thought. Individual existence impresses him as a sort of prison and he wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole." "The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another." In this modern age, where science has taught us how the universe actually works, there can be no anthropomorphic, personal God at the focus of this feeling, because such a being would be totally impossible. Praying to a God to rescue you from this or that is silly, and there are no supernatural rewards and punishments for good and evil. There is no heaven or hell. "The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events - provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes." Einstein, who was a highly ethical man, insisted that there had to be a totally different kind of basis for moral behavior: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death." What motivates the best scientists, Einstein insists, is their sense of awe and wonder at the majestic sweep of the universe, from the smallest level to the biggest: electrons, neutrons, and atoms, the tiny DNA chains that determine the evolution of species, the electrochemical structures of the brain, stars and galaxies, and all the way up to the structure of space-time itself: "The cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the devotion without which pioneer work in theoretical science cannot be achieved are able to grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work, remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue. What a deep conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand, were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labor in disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics!" _________________________________________ [The article has been reprinted in Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions, based on Mein Weltbild, ed. by Carl Seelig and other sources, new translations and revisions by Sonja Bargmann (New York, Crown Publishers, 1954), 36-40, and also in Albert Einstein, The World as I See It (New York: Philosophical Library, 1949), 24-28.] _________________________________________ EINSTEIN AND PAUL TILLICH See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality, Chapter 11, "Tillich and Einstein" Paul Tillich and Reinhold Niebuhr were the two most famous theologians at Union Theological Seminary in New York City. In Tillich's counter article to Einstein's piece, he agreed with Einstein that the idea of a personal God was an outmoded myth. The real Higher Power was an impersonal absolute (which Tillich called "the ground of being"). But Tillich argued that personalistic language was very valuable in talking about our relationship to this Higher Power, as long as we remembered that this image of a personal God watching out for us was metaphorical and symbolic only. It was only a sign post pointing to a higher reality, where that higher reality was a completely impersonal and indescribable abyss of non-being, which could give us the gift of new being when our old lives had collapsed into ruins, but which would swallow us up into non-being at the end of our lives. It is true that Father Samuel Moor Shoemaker III, rector of Calvary Episcopal Church from 1928 to 1952, and the American leader of the Oxford Group during the 1930's (continuing until he broke with the Oxford Group in 1941), was a figure known to everyone in the theological world of New York City. But it was people like PAUL TILLICH, REINHOLD NIEBUHR, EMMET FOX, and HARRY EMERSON FOSDICK who were more typical of the general theological spirit of the city during the period when Alcoholics Anonymous was being formed. I am not trying to talk here about what the Christians believed who originally built Winchester cathedral in England back during the Middle Ages, nor about what today's Anglican pastors preach and teach in their cathedrals and parishes in the British Isles, but about what Bill Wilson felt when he walked into that cathedral as a young soldier, and about how -- some fifteen years later in New York City -- he interpreted what he had once felt there so long ago. Winchester cathedral was the site of one of his earliest experiences of "cosmic religious feeling," or as he would describe it in the Big Book, "catapulted into what I like to call the fourth dimension of existence" (p. 8) or "rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence of which we had not even dreamed" (p. 25). That is what Winchester symbolizes in the AA movement, and you don't have to believe in a personal God to understand it. Just stand in the cathedral or at the tomb of the Hampshire Grenadier and softly recite the Serenity Prayer, and be thankful for what you feel while doing that, and where you've gotten in your life, now you have put it on this new basis. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8397. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2012 3:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Bob, So who is Bill Ames of Virginia and how did he get sober in 1938? Who from the list of 89 pioneers (sober through 12/39) carried the message to him and in what fashion is that documented? Since I have never read of or heard of Bill Ames in any AA History before I would love to hear more. Thanks and God Bless - - - - "bobhickey674" wrote: > I checked out your list and you seem to have missed Bill Ames of Virginia who got sober in 1938 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8399. . . . . . . . . . . . New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2012 10:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Distilled Spirits: Getting High, then Sober, with a Famous Writer, a Forgotten Philosopher and a Hopeless Drunk," by Don Lattin. University of California Press, coming out in October 2012. http://www.donlattin.com/pageds/dl_distilled_spirits.html This book "blends a religion reporter's memoir with the compelling stories of three men -- Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson -- whose work and inspiring friendship transformed the landscape of Western religion and spirituality in the twentieth century." "Huxley, the prophetic English essayist and celebrated author of Brave New World, ignited a restless generation that chased utopian dreams and sought enlightenment through psychedelic drugs. Heard, an Anglo-Irish mystic, journeyed to California with Huxley in the 1930s to lay the foundations for the New Age and human potential movements. Wilson, the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, joined forces with Huxley and Heard in the 1940s and 1950s, when Wilson began a series of little-known experiments to see if LSD could be used to help diehard drunks discover a power greater than themselves." "Their life stories are gracefully brought together by veteran journalist Don Lattin, who reveals his own sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious misadventures as a religion writer 'worshiping at the altar of drugs and alcohol.'" Best, Paul IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8400. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred From: Mike Barns . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 9:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On May 1, 2012, at May 1, 2012 6:10 AM, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY > > > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron > > > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron > > > 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron Re: Dr. Bob's sobriety date - although Bill and Bob got together in May 1935, it was in June 1935 when Dr. Bob had his last drink. Mike Barns IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8401. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 8:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks, I look forward to reading this book. I knew very little of Huxley (and his inner world) until I read one of his works that came to me through AA. In the February 1946 Grapevine the book The Perennial Philosophy by Aldous Huxley was recommended in the monthly section "The Pleasures of Reading" by one R.F.S. RFS was none othet than Royal Sheppard from Glen Ridge, NJ and who has quite a history in AA in the mid to late 40s (another story) This book ia an amazing spiritual journey that seeks to unify the spirituality (core beliefs) of all great religions. All seekers of that which is Divine should have a look at this book. I found it most heart-warming and uplifting. It is treasure trove of advice taken from the greatest saints and mystics of all time I'm sure Glenn could expand on the philosophy of the Perennial Philosophy. God Bless John --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" wrote: > > "Distilled Spirits: Getting High, then Sober, with a Famous Writer, > a Forgotten Philosopher and a Hopeless Drunk," by Don Lattin. University of California Press, coming out in October 2012. > > http://www.donlattin.com/pageds/dl_distilled_spirits.html > > This book "blends a religion reporter's memoir with the compelling stories of three men -- Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson -- whose work and inspiring friendship transformed the landscape of Western religion and spirituality in the twentieth century." > > "Huxley, the prophetic English essayist and celebrated author of Brave New World, ignited a restless generation that chased utopian dreams and sought enlightenment through psychedelic drugs. Heard, an Anglo-Irish mystic, journeyed to California with Huxley in the 1930s to lay the foundations for the New Age and human potential movements. Wilson, the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, joined forces with Huxley and Heard in the 1940s and 1950s, when Wilson began a series of little-known experiments to see if LSD could be used to help diehard drunks discover a power greater than themselves." > > "Their life stories are gracefully brought together by veteran journalist Don Lattin, who reveals his own sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious misadventures as a religion writer 'worshiping at the altar of drugs and alcohol.'" > > Best, > Paul > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8402. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 12:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mike, You have to read the notes regarding the Amos List to understand why Bob is listed in May. Follow the link above, the note is found on the second full page of text (I think) Regards http://www.silkworth.net/pdf/Chapter_IV-We_Began_to-Count_Noses.pdf --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Mike Barns wrote: > > On May 1, 2012, at May 1, 2012 6:10 AM, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > > > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY > > > > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron > > > > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron > > > > 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron > > Re: Dr. Bob's sobriety date - although Bill and Bob got together in May 1935, it was in June 1935 when Dr. Bob had his last drink. > > Mike Barns > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8403. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 12:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII So here is what I had on Bill A. and thanks to Jared for helping me with the last name. The info below in italics is from the Timelines of the First 25 AA Groups. What do you have to support a 38 SOB date for Bill Ames? Do you have something with Fitz's name attached to it or a letter or recording from Bill A stating his SOB? If so I'd be happy to add him to the list but we need a sufficient piece of evidence to support this. Pass It On has Hardin C. and Bill (A.) joining with Fitz in 1940. The story from Donald Graham as detailed in Nancy's Bio of Fitz comes from Graham's recollection many years later and can not by itself be considered authoritative. A.A. Group # 10 Washington D.C. At first he (Fitz) met with minimal success, but by the fall of 1939 the nucleus of a small group had been established in Washington. He had been long a loner in Washington, but Fitz was eventually joined by Hardin C. and Bill A.[note 2] and was also joined by Florence Rankin Note 2. When Bill Wilson died in 1971, Donald E. Graham, now the publisher of The Washington Post, but then a young man learning the family business from the ground up, and working as a staff writer, interviewed me. Graham's story says in part: "Bill A., an Arlington businessman, recalled that in December 1939, when Alcoholics Anonymous was a small, little known group, he went to New York to meet Mr. Wilson. The next month Mr. Wilson helped start an AA chapter here, the fourth in the country." From the Biography of Fitz M. by Nancy O. John Barton's Comments: Based on the comments of Bill A. this group (Washington D.C.) would be December of 1939. Arrival of Ned Foote supports this. However, actual start of Group may have been January of 1940. See PIO p.257 N2 Washington Intergroup History lists date as October 28, 1939 but this is in variance with PIO. In lieu of discrepancy we list this group as the first group of December 1939. _______________________________________ From: jax760 jax760@yahoo.com> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred Hi Bob, So who is Bill Ames of Virginia and how did he get sober in 1938? Who from the list of 89 pioneers (sober through 12/39) carried the message to him and in what fashion is that documented? Since I have never read of or heard of Bill Ames in any AA History before I would love to hear more. Thanks and God Bless - - - - "bobhickey674" wrote: I checked out your list and you seem to have missed Bill Ames of Virginia who got sober in 1938 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8404. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 1:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I do not remember where I read it, perhaps on this list, but my understanding was that in early AA they did not reset their sobriety dates for slips. One question this concept would raise is what the dividing line is between a slip and just not getting the program, drinking for several more years and then returning. But, that would explain the sobriety date for Dr. Bob being listed as May rather than June. Jim - - - - Note from Glenn C. -- O.K., that would explain why J. D. Holmes continued to give his sobriety date as October 1936 even though he had a slip in January or February 1937. But two or three months of renewed drinking was enough to bring him back to the program, and somewhere around April 1937, he got sobered up again, and went on to spread AA through large parts of the state of Indiana (and parts of southern Michigan as well). See the letter which J. D. Holmes wrote around 1953 or 1954 and sent to Dean L. Barnett, the first person to try to write a history of Alcoholics Anonymous in Indiana – http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html at a little past the middle of the page. Also Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers pp. 113 and 148. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8405. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Memories of Sybil Corwin, from someone she sponsored From: John Moore . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2012 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sorry I do not have a copy of that talk! Thanks for sharing Matt. I have had your letter about Sybil & Irma Livoni for many years and use it when we do the Third Tradition in the 12 x 12 at my home group here in Vermont. I always wondered who "Matt" was and what group he was from and it is very nice to cross paths with you finally and know who you are. I got sober in So Cal and lived in Torrance till 1979 when I moved east. Sybil came to my home group South Bay Survivors for our anniversary meeting one year. Anniversary night we had a four speaker 1/2 hour talk format and all four speakers were old timers. Beside Sybil was Gene Edmiston, and I think Sybil's brother Tex, though my memory is dim and I hope it was him and he was not dead LOL by then, and I forget who the fourth speaker was, maybe Alabam C or Bea G., but it was a memorable night. I have heard Sybil share quite a few times around Los Angeles and she was wonderful. What a gift to be a newcomer and grow up around these AA pioneers. John M Burlington Vermont US - - - - Masterman pupmasters@yahoo.com> wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of a tape of Sybil Corwin > from January 14th, 1984 recorded in Riverside, Calif .... > > They made a tape of that night, and Sybil talked > about her friend who lived in Riverside, who had > just died, I think his name was Dick Greggory, and > he had a wife Alma Greggory I believe. If anyone > knows how I can get a copy of that tape (mine was > destroyed in hurricane katrina) I would be so grateful. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8406. . . . . . . . . . . . Memories of Sybil From: Masterman . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2012 9:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My sponsor Sybil - memories are God's way of giving us roses everyday in winter. Hi all, Matt Masterman here and I'm an alcoholic (hi Matt!) I was just going to point out a small correction about the date that my sponsor Sybil got sober (March 21st, rather than March 23rd). I hadn't typed out Sybil's experiences for a long time and I had been asked by someone in the version of the Grapevine for another country to tell some stories about Sybil. So I used this page to type it out, and am going to copy it to send to her. I thought, "I miss Sybil so much" and that someone told me that in a way I've kept Sybil alive, for people who have never met her by speaking about her so much. Since she's one of the few people who went to her first meeting, got kicked out because they had never had a woman before, and then stayed sober from her 2nd meeting for 57 yrs, and who was in AA before they had the 12 traditions, I thought , well maybe I'll just talk about her for a new generation of AA'rs who love soaking up aa history. So here goes. Much love to you all, in advance, Matt Just a slight correction, regarding Sybil's first meeting. The date was Friday March 21st 1941 not March 23rd ... (even Sybil would say the wrong date 40 yrs later, as she didn't have a calendar of that month, so she herself got the date confused when she would speak at a meeting, I found out using a computer, but old tapes of her speaking had the date as 3/23 rather than 3/21) (info good for obsessive compulsive alcoholics, like me ... sorry) Her first meeting was held at the Elks Temple, now the Park Plaza Hotel where it had the room to go from 12 people to over 400 (used in filming a well known Journey Music Video, "OH SHERRY"). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGZgzE-KaiY&feature=related [53] Back in 1941 that was the Elks Temple -- an enormous building in downtown L.A., next to what is now MacArthur Park -- now called The Park Plaza Hotel. Here's a link to the present day building with videos and pictures of the enormous lobby that Sybil had to wander after they kicked her out of her first meeting. http://www.parkplazala.com/sites/courses/layout9.asp?id=445&page=13493 [54] Imagine little tiny Sybil all of 105 lbs walking around in that enormous lobby with the big grand wide staircase. She said she felt out of place to begin with, and thought that the reason they told her and the other wives to leave the meeting was because they didn't like her. She didn't know that they had only 12 members in the Los Angeles meeting of A.A. and they had never had a woman alcoholic. Sybil had written to the New York office and thought that AA was a bunch of doctors in some AA hospital and she asked "send me the address and I'll come back east to your AA hospital." Ruth Hock, Bill Wilson's secretary, wrote Sybil back privately as her letter was one of the first that was generated by the March 1st Issue of the Sat. Evening Post Article written by Jack Alexander, and also because it was from a woman. Ruth wrote "We haven't had much luck with lady lushes in AA, but I'm sure you'll do very well, as there is one meeting in your area." When Ruth wrote Sybil she signed the letter R.Hock, telling Sybil that she felt people would value the information better if it came from a man. My how times have changed. Years later Sybil said she felt lucky that Ruth had written her first, and wrote her quickly, before the avalanche of letters that flooded the NY Office. From the Sat. Even. Post article. Since the flood of letters were too many to answer individually,if there was a meeting close to where the person lived, they would send those letters to the area meeting and asked the members to answer the letters and make 12 step calls on the author of each letter. There was ONE of the few meetings that existed in 1941 in Los Angeles (only ONE meeting, for the whole week). The building was built in 1925, and has one of the most enormous and cavernous lobbies I've ever been in. Ruth's letter to Sybil told her "You don't need to come back to New York to go to A.A., there is a meeting in your home town that meets every Friday night at the Elks Temple. So Sybil put on her hat and gloves and she and her husband Dick Maxwell went down to the Elks Temple. They found the meeting room and there were 12 men there, seated around a table and 3 or 4 women sitting against the wall. Frank Randall, one of the "owners" of that meeting (Sybil told me that if you started a meeting, you owned it, and were the secretary. Frank Randall and Mort Joseph were the secretaries of that meeting, also called "the mother group") Frank would start the meeting like this.... "Welcome to Alcoholics Anonymous. We're a bunch of ex-drunks who have banded together to obtain and maintain our sobriety on an all time basis, with no mental reservations WHATSOEVER!" (bang bang, went the gavel on the table) "As is our custom we're going to ask the wives to leave us now, and please join us after the meeting for coffee and doughnuts". Sybil said that she thought they didn't like her and that's the reason she was being kicked out of the meeting. Her husband Dick Maxwell stayed inside because they thought he was the alcoholic, as they'd never had a woman alcoholic at that meeting before. Meetings did not just go from 8:30 to 10:00pm, they went on for hours and hours as it was the ONLY time during the entire week that the fellows had to see each other. Sybil said it felt normal for her to feel that they didn't want her. She said she never seemed to fit in when she younger or when she was drinking. If the women were wearing their skirts shorter hers were longer, and when they were wearing them longer she would show up with a shorter skirt. She often felt very out of place because she never was very good with her makeup and had a horrible twitch in her left eye. Whenever she got nervous her eye would start to twitch, and it was very embarrassing. You can get an even better feel of the scale of that stairway and lobby and massive cast iron gate and iron work at the top of the stairway in the Journey Song Video "Oh Sherry." The architecture of the building is impressive to me, and it fascinates me that even today, almost 72 yrs later, we can still see where the ONE meeting per week was held, in a town that now has over 2,000 meetings per week, and that the building was so unusual that it's still used for parties, for filming, for weddings, and that I was able to walk around in it, trying to feel what a scared little alcoholic would feel like in this cavernous and cold place, feeling like she got kicked out of the meeting. I don't know if I would have come back to a 2nd meeting, after having such a horrible experience at my first meeting, like Sybil did. Also funny that she got kicked out of her first meeting, only to become from 1960 til she died in 1998 the woman with the longest sobriety of any woman in AA. Kicked out, drunk after her first meeting, to staying sober from then on, for 57 yrs. Her tenacity was incredible. I miss her so, and appreciated & cherished her and what she gave me while she was alive After we went to that building for an anniversary party I threw for Sybil, I couldn't get over what it must have been like for her, this tiny little lady, to wander around this enormous lobby all the while in her head, thinking, thinking, thinking that they didn't like her and were probably discussing her case with her husband. When the meeting ended and they invited everyone back, Sybil did not stay for coffee and doughnuts. Sybil said to her husband "Give me my pills and let's get out of here" (still thinking that they were doctors). Dick said "Oh Sybil you don't know what they put me though. They don't even know you're alive. All they did was tell me one horror story after another and told me that I needed to Easy Does It, and Keep Coming Back." It was horrible. So they left and Sybil left Dick at home and went down to a bar and got royally smashed. She said that she proudly told one of the patrons "I'm in Alcoholics Anonymous now", while secretly ashamed that they kicked her out. Then she got 86th-ed out (kicked out) of the bar and remembered that Ruth had put something in her letter with a phone number It said "If you need to speak to someone before the meeting you can call Cliff Walker at CRestview XXXX. He was a milk man and was up as he had to go on his milk delivery route when Sybil called. "SEND YOUR A.A. AMBULANCE AND PICK ME UP"! Sybil said. "You're Drunk" Cliff said. (Side note: Cliff became her sponsor for the next 20 years.) "OF COURSE I'M DRUNK. I WENT DOWN TO YOUR LOUSY CLUBHOUSE AND THEY THREW ME OUT OF THE MEETING," Sybil said "Did you tell them you are a woman alcoholic, because we've never had one before." "NO OF COURSE NOT. PLUS THEY NEVER GAVE MY HUSBAND MY PILLS, HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO GET SOBER WHEN THEY GAVE ME NO PILLS?" "Well this has been a horrible mistake, surely. You didn't tell them you were an alcoholic. They thought you were one of the wives. If you had identified yourself as alcoholic, you would have been as welcome as the flowers in May. My name is Cliff Walker, what is your name Ma'am?" "I AM SYBIL MAXWELL." "Well Sybil, I want you to go home, and I want you to get some sleep, and I will tell them that we have a woman alcoholic, and you be sure to come back because WE NEED YOU" (he had heard they were sending all the letters from New York). "YOU WANT ME TO GO HOME, YOUNG MAN, OK. I'LL GO HOME. I'LL GO HOME AND I'M GOING TO WRITE TO NEW YORK AGAIN AND TELL THEM THAT NO ONE WOULD SEND YOUR A.A. AMBULANCE AND I'M GOING TO GET YOU FIRED YOUNG MAN!" And she hung the phone up and went home. When Sybil saw the Jack Alexander Article in the Saturday Evening Post, she had seen the famous picture of the 2 men sitting at the bedside of AA'r #3. Sybil thought that that was a hospital bed, and somehow thought they were based on a medical solution, and had an AA hospital. You can see the painting that Sybil thought was a hospital bed at this link. The one that AA.org has for the article does not have the cover art or that painting in the reprint of the article. I think they didn't want to have to pay for the use of the cover art, etc. http://www.barefootsworld.net/aajalexpost1941.html She also thought that A.A. had a big white ambulance with 2 BIG RED LETTER A'S ON EACH SIDE OF IT. So the next week when they started the meeting they said "Welcome to Alcoholics Anonymous. We're a bunch of ex-drunks who have banded together to obtain and maintain our sobriety on an all time basis, with no mental reservations WHATSOEVER!" (bang bang, went the gavel on the table) "As is our custom we're going to ask the women who are not alcoholic, to leave and join the wives for now, and please join us after the meeting for coffee and doughnuts". Sybil said that they were very welcoming to her and that when the meeting got around to the other letters generated from the Jack Alexander article that Frank said "Well we have all these letters from people who wrote to AA in New York, and for anyone who lives near one of the AA meetings, they sent the letters to the groups and we're supposed to do a 12 step call on them." "I've bundled the letters together, and Curly O'Neal you come up and get the letters from the Long Beach Area, and Mel Trikie you come up and get all the letters from the San Bernardino area," and he distributed all the letters except for one bunch. Then he said "Now these are all from women and I understand from Cliff Walker that we have a woman alcoholic now, and her name is Sybil, are you Sybil?" "Yes sir" Sybil said she replied, her knees shaking. "Well come on up here Sybil" She said she couldn't move, but eventually got up there, covering her mouth so he couldn't see her mouth twitch. She said that he continued and said ... "Now all these letters are from women and I want you to go and see them and tell them where we meet and bring them down to the meeting next Friday" "I can't do that sir." "Why not?" "Well, I will be drunk by next Friday. I still haven't been given any pills and I don't know how you men are staying sober, and I don't want to take on that responsibility and let those women down. "Well, you won't let them down Sybil, and I'll tell you why. When you call on someone we call it a 12 step call, because those are the steps we take to stay sober, and right here in our big red book it says 'Practical experience shows that nothing will so much INSURE IMMUNITY from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics.' Bill Wilson one of our founders found that when he was talking and working with other alcoholics his desire to drink went away" "Well what do you want me to say to these women." "Very little, you don't know anything yet!" Sybil said she laughed a little and everyone else did as well. "But you knock on their door or ring their bell and when they open the door and you see it's a woman, you hold their letter up and say "Hi, I'm Sybil and I'm from Alcoholics Anonymous, did you write this letter?" and they'll see their own handwriting and will say 'yes' and you tell them that you came down here to the meeting and they all seemed to be very sober and how about if we go down there together and find out exactly how they are doing it,' and that's all you need to say, and you bring them down to next meeting and we're going to put you in charge of all the women." Sybil said she could see a neon sign in her mind that said "SYBIL'S IN CHARGE .... SYBIL'S IN CHARGE" and she said she thought -- "Gee, last week I got thrown out, this week I get put in charge of all the women. You sure do get promoted around this place in a hurry" -- and that led to her going on 50 Twelve Step calls that week. She even went up to the Miramar Hotel in Santa Barbara, and brought a woman down to the meeting. Sybil said the meeting grew -- it mushroomed. And she could be real big because Frank and Mort gave her a notebook and they said, "Now you write down all the names of women and then you get them a sponsor. And you have the sponsor report back to you. Then, when you look in your notebook, you will know who you gave the call to. You'll have the report on it. That's a good system." And Sybil took it oh so seriously because she'd go down to the mother group -- now we had two, three, four hundred people possibly, microphone and everything -- and as the forty or fifty women came in and they were seated, Sybil could check her notebook and could think, "There's Eva. She called on Bonnie. Bonnie called on so-and-so, and Fran, and yeah, yeah." And it checked out perfectly, beautiful. Then she would tell Frank and Mort it was working fine. They'd say, "That's nice. You're doing a good job Sybil." That worked pretty well for a while. Sybil got her style back in sink with most of the styles of the day. She said that her nervous twitch in her face disappeared, and everything was wonderful But one night Sybil went to the mother group and a gal named Kay came down the aisle and she had six strangers with her and they hadn't been cleared through Sybil. And She walked up to her and said, "Where did you get these women? you didn't clear them with me, look here is y our name, and the women you brought are not in my book. You know what Frank and Mort are going to say about the system." Kay then replied and said, "To hell with the system and to hell with you too Sybil. ! I have friends who used to drink with me in Culver City, they have a drinking problem same as I do, and they found out that I was getting sober and staying sober. They asked me how I was doing it. I told them I joined AA. They said, 'Can I go with you?' I said, 'Yes.'" Then Kay said, "It's as simple as that and anytime anybody wants to come to an AA meeting with me for a drinking problem that's the way it's going to be, and I'll never report to you or your system again." Sybil said she felt her face start to twitch and she almost broke into tears. After the meeting she was discussing it with her brother Tex who was now also in AA and she said "Tex that woman defied me, and my mouth is twitching all over again and I don't know what I'm going to do, my book didn't balance out and this was a horrible day. She said that Tex said "What you're going to do is resign from being in charge before they FIRE YOU" and Sybil said she did and that after that she enjoyed her meetings and 12 step work even more and more. On Sybil's 44th AA Birthday, I had a reunion with her and her sponsor and any of the early AA'rs who were still living and we all met where that first meeting was held, and then all went to supper. I had never known Sybil had a sponsor who was still living. Her name was Evelyn and she was a very sweet, yet very shy woman, and Sybil told me that she had never, ever, spoke at a meeting, no matter how many times they asked her. I asked Sybil "Never? Really and truly NEVER??" and she said "Yep, on my word of honor, never Ever!" One of the things about being with Sybil at all the various meetings she went to and was invited to speak at, I learned that there were lots and lots of differences in the way meetings were conducted. Sybil and Bob referred to these as "Local Tribal Customs" that each meeting, or each city or state developed over time. I was never to say "Well the way we do it in L.A." was because Bob told me that there actually is a sign at a clubhouse in San Francisco that reads "We don't care how you do it in L.A." on the wall in the meeting room at the clubhouse. Bob said "If they clap, you clap, if they staand and hold hands and say our wonderful serenity prayer you hold hands and say our serenity prayer" Whatever they do, you do, and remember you're a guest at all of the meetings you go to with Sybil. Sybil never spoke about how long she was sober, other than to point out that AA could work that long and that well for everyone. When people would want to call Sybil an oldtimer she would ask them NOT to call her that. She said that she just got here before other people did, and that was her only claim to fame. She also said that we were like little birds little fledglings and that we were all learning how to fly, and would say "thank you for being my fellow fledglings and letting me fly with all of you. Thank you for inviting me here tonight. ............. and that's some of the stories I remember Sybil saying about her first meetings. I think she was adequate. What do you think? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8407. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in early AA From: Masterman . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2012 10:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear John Hi, Matt Masterman here, and Sybil and Bob used to sponsor me. Sybil herself used to say that her bday was 3/23 but that was an error that she started to repeat in the 80's on speaker tapes. If you put the days into Excel or Lotus 123 you'll see that her first meeting (and stayed sober from) was March 21st 1941. Like I said, even Sybil was saying the wrong date, so people would type the error if they heard her on a tape. When Marty Mann had her brief relapse in 1960 Except for anyone who was still alive from then until April 1998, if they were sober longer than Sybil was, then they were the woman sober the longest in AA. If not, then Sybil then became the woman in AA with the longest sobriety that I'm aware of. Someone may have been alive with longer that, of course, who was less known, since we're anonymous and don't collect birthday information program wise (meeting wise yes with some meetings, and of course we are not anonymous with each other, only at THAT OTHER LEVEL, not at the level with each other. Also since Sybil was the executive secretary of the Los Angeles Intergroup for 12 yrs, and since Bill was very interested in how his AA program worked for women, she and Bill became friends, and she and Bob used to vacation with Bill and Lois. She was more visible, but that didn't mean that someone somewhere in AA might have been sober longer. She spoke at the 1985 convention in MOntreal and when she died in 1998, since it was past her bday, she had just celebrated 57 years in what we called "the east wing" of their home. Their home on Mt. Washington was literally across the street from the convalescent hospital that she was in when she died. We would get her, carry her up the stairs in her wheelchair, and have supper with her and then Bobby (Bob's son) and I would carry her back, down the steps, across the street, and would say "Sybil, we're going to take you to the east wing of the house." Having women help her bathe, dress, etc was a lot easier on her, and she was far more comfortable with that, than having her husband and male sponsee's do it. http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-irma_livoni.html I don't know if you know about Sybil's sponsee Irma. Pic of Sybil there with me. If you'd like any other information about her, let me know. She was one of my heroes too. You might like to hear a funny story, Sybil and Bob flew back with Bill and Lois after Bill had spoken at a convention, and they were going to vacation together. Bob said it was his first time in first class so it was a big deal for him. The next morning Lois and Sybil were in the kitchen at Stepping Stones having coffee and Bob joined them and Bill was the last to come down for breakfast. During breakfast Bill asked Sybil, "You know I didn't feel that great yesterday and I felt like I wasn't at my best when I gave my talk. What was your impression Sybil? Did I sound Ok? Did I make sense with whatever I was speaking about?" Sybil paused for a moment, and what's the word (is it a real word, or a made up word) 'incredulously' looked at Bill and said "But Bill??? You're BILL!!" as he could do no wrong, as far as Sybil was concerned. In the same way that Sybil used to lean forward whenever Bob spoke, and she looked like she had never heard him speak, and that he was THE most interesting speaker she had ever heard, Sybil was also like that with Bill, and I was like that with both Sybil and Bob, as well As Alabam Carothers and Marie Stinner and my dear odd friend Jayne Grey, all from Radford. Can we attach things here? [NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: Unfortunately, the Yahoo system setup that we have does not allow us to receive, post, or send messages with attachments.] if you'd like to see some pictures of Sybil, and Sybil and Bob, they were my heroes and role models. and gave me a life that is so wonderful. How did Sybil become one of your heroes?? AA didn't give me back my life, it gave me a life I never had. Much AA love to you, Matt - - - - John Moore wrote: > > Sybil Doris Adams Statton Hart Maxwell Willis Corwin > > Joined AA in Los Angeles, the Mother Group. She got sober shortly after the Jack Alexander Article in the Saturday Evening > Post (pub date March 1 1941). > > Said to have been the first woman sober in AA west of the Mississippi ... (and before her death I understand that Sybil became our longest sober AA member ... I wish someone could verify this). > > One of my AA heroes! > > John IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8409. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 From: Charles Bishop . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2012 12:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi AAHL: I invited Mel B. down to Wheeling to talk at a West Virginia AA Convention one summer. His talk was wonderful. We had everyone present sign a Big Book for him. I presented the gift to him after his sharing. He replied: "Thanks, I've always wanted to read this book." Keep trudging, stumbling, Mel. Love ya. servus, Charlie B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8410. . . . . . . . . . . . Gideon Paul Kellogg From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2012 7:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Friends, I am wondering if anyone who knows about the pioneers of our fellowship can tell me if Gideon Paul Kellogg is the same person as Paul Kellogg, known as AA#34 on the "counted noses" list. I ask this because evidence points to that. I have seen in the literature that his wife was "Gussie" Kellogg. When researching Gideon Paul I found his wife is Charlotte "Augusta" Kellogg (Hedges). Would stand to reason that "Gussie" is short for Augusta. Additionally the birthday of GP Kellogg is 20 Jan 1896 which would put him in the right age bracket, also there are New Jersey references in census results and his World War II draft card -- specifically, Union New Jersey. Any info would be appreciated. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8411. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA World Library literature From: jm48301@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2012 4:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Am I Drinking Too Much? by Doyle F. Lindley, Robert T. Dorris http://www.allbookstores.com/Drinking-Too-Much-Doyle-Lindley/9780915082025 Am I Drinking Too Much? by Doyle F. Lindley, Robert T. Dorris (9780915082025), Book. 0915082020, Alcoholism - treatment, Psychopathology / addiction, Psychology ... You will get an enormous number of references to the name Doyle Lindley on search engines like Bing: http://www.bing.com/search?q=Doyle+Lindley+&+Am+I+Drinking&# 43;Too+Much&qs=n&form=QB\ LH&pq=doyle+lindley+&+am+i+drinking+too+much&sc=1-38 &sp=-1&sk=# [55] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8412. . . . . . . . . . . . One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service Structure From: Denez McD . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2012 2:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please help my friend Dennis McD get the answer to his question: ==================== From: gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net (gratefuldennis at sbcglobal.net) When Bill was running around promoting the General Service Structure in one of his talks he mentioned how we need to move from a benign anarchy to a majority ruled democracy. I lost this when my computer crashed recently so does anyone know about this talk and where I can get a hold of a copy. If anyone is on AA History Lovers perhaps they can find out. Thank you; Dennis M. ==================== Thank you, DenezMcD denezmcd@aol.com> (denezmcd at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8413. . . . . . . . . . . . Ernie Kurtz is out of the hospital now From: J.BARRY Murtaugh . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2012 8:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Barry Murtaugh, Fred David Levine, and Charlie Bishop - - - - From: "J.BARRY Murtaugh" murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com> (murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com) Prayers for smooth recovery, Ernie. - - - - From: Fred David Levine mbfdl@rcn.com> (mbfdl at rcn.com) Ernie: A full and speedy recovery ... Fred - - - - From: "Charles Bishop" bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net) Welcome home, Ernie. servus, Charlie. ___________________________________________ Message 8394 on Sun, Apr 29, 2012 from kurtzern@umich.edu> (kurtzern at umich.edu) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8394 Ernie Kurtz wrote: "I was in hospital and rehab since March 9th and remain disabled though now at home since yesterday." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8414. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Names of the First One Hundred -- Norman Y. From: maureen kerrigan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2012 6:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm originally from Youngstown, Ohio, and thought I had heard at least one of the original 100 was from there. Checked the Akron AA site http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/Voices/Voices.html What about Norman Y. -- sobriety date January 28, 1939? Norman had lost his wife and family, his job and his sight to bootleg liquor when Jack D. took the A.A. message to him in Youngstown. In 1940 he had the Big Book transcribed into braille and sent out to other blind A.A. members. He appears in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers on pages 183-184, 221, 223, 249-250, 263. I am not familiar with posting, so don't know if I posted this right?! thx IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8415. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Winchester cathedral post -- demographics of atheism From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 4:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Re "demographics of atheism", a platform speaker at the 1990 Seattle international reunion quoted from Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's The Phenomenon of Man, "We're not human beings having a spiritual experience; we're spiritual beings having a human experience." And Ernest Kurtz and Katherine Ketcham point out, "Spirituality is like health. We all have health; we may have good health or poor health, but it's something we can't avoid having. The same is true of spirituality: every human being is a spiritual being ..." (The Spirituality of Imperfection; Bantam; 1992) The Alister Hardy Society www.alisterhardysociety.org/ explores "the nature and study of spiritual, religious and psychic experience". And Quakers speak of "that of God in everyone" - including atheists, presumably! BTW I wonder what Bob and Bill would make of AA "shrines"! Laurie A. - - - - PS: In The Varieties of Religious Experience, William James notes: "Taking creeds and faith-state together, as forming 'religions,' and treating these as purely subjective phenomena, without regard to the question of their 'truth,' we are obliged, on account of their extraordinary influence upon action and endurance to class them amongst the most important biological functions of mankind. Their stimulant and anaesthetic effect is so great that Professor Leuba ... goes so far as to say that so long as men can use their God, they care very little who he is, or even whether he is at all. 'The truth of the matter can be put,' says Leuba, 'in this way; God is not known, he is not understood; he is used - sometimes ... as moral support, sometimes as friend, sometimes as an object of love. If he proves himself useful, the religious consciousness asks for no more than that. Does God exist? What is he? are so many irrelevant questions. Not God, but life, is, in the last analysis, the end of religion. The love of life, at any and every level of development, is the religious impulse'." And in a footnote James adds: "... Compare what W. Bender says (in his Wessen der Religion, Bonn, 1888): 'Not the question about God, and not the inquiry into the origin and purpose of the world is religion, but the question about Man. All religious views of life are anthropocentric. Religion is that activity of the human impulse towards self-preservation by means of which Man seeks to carry his essential vital purposes through against the adverse pressure of the world by raising himself freely towards the world's ordering and governing powers when the limits of his own strength are reached'." CF "the stimulant and anaesthetic effect of religion" with Jung's insight into the connection (at a low level!) of the alcoholic and religious thirst. As Bill said, let's quit the debating society and "theological abstractions" about whether God made man or man made God, and get on with living "happily and usefully whole". _________________________________________ FROM THE PREVIOUS MESSAGE: DEMOGRAPHICS OF ATHEISM European AA people live in cultures where there are often a large number of people who do not believe in a personal God, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism The majority of people still believe in a personal God in some countries: 90% in Romania 80% in Poland 74% in Italy 73% in Ireland But less than half the population are believers in many other countries: 47% in Germany 43% in Belgium 38% in the U.K. 34% in France and the Netherlands 32% in Norway 31% in Denmark 23% in Sweden 19% in the Czech Republic But in the countries where most of the people no longer believe in God, there are often a surprisingly large number of people who believe in some sort of spirit or life force: 53% in Sweden 50% in the Czech Republic 49% in Denmark 47% in Norway 40% in the U.K. 37% in the Netherlands 29% in Belgium 27% in France 25% in Germany _________________________________________ For this reason, it would probably be a good idea to point out that Mel Barger asked Bill Wilson on more than one occasion, what happened in that memorable spiritual experience he had in Towns Hospital, and Bill W. said that it was what his era of history called "cosmic consciousness" or "cosmic religious feeling." Bill referred Mel to the famous book by the Canadian psychiatrist Richard Maurice Bucke, "Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind." ALBERT EINSTEIN Modern Europeans who are atheists might find what Bill W. experienced at Winchester cathedral more understandable by reading a piece written by the famous German-Swiss physicist Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930, 1-4. In the following paragraphs, I give a brief outline of that article and a few excerpts. It may be read online at: http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm EINSTEIN ON COSMIC RELIGIOUS FEELING 1. The first stage in the development of religion was a fear-based religion: primitive people attempted to secure the favor of imaginary personal beings, called gods and goddesses or spirits, by performing actions and sacrifices directed by a priestly caste. 2. The second stage was moral religion, seen in the Jewish scriptures and the Christian New Testament: belief in a single personal God who is moral and loving. Both of these forms of religion believe in anthropomorphic gods and spirits, that is, supernatural beings which are persons and think and act like human beings. 3. The third stage is cosmic religious feeling. "It is very difficult to elucidate this feeling," Einstein said, "as there is no anthropomorphic conception of God corresponding to it." "The individual feels the futility of human desires and aims and the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world of thought. Individual existence impresses him as a sort of prison and he wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole." "The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another." In this modern age, where science has taught us how the universe actually works, there can be no anthropomorphic, personal God at the focus of this feeling, because such a being would be totally impossible. Praying to a God to rescue you from this or that is silly, and there are no supernatural rewards and punishments for good and evil. There is no heaven or hell. "The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events - provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes." Einstein, who was a highly ethical man, insisted that there had to be a totally different kind of basis for moral behavior: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death." What motivates the best scientists, Einstein insists, is their sense of awe and wonder at the majestic sweep of the universe, from the smallest level to the biggest: electrons, neutrons, and atoms, the tiny DNA chains that determine the evolution of species, the electrochemical structures of the brain, stars and galaxies, and all the way up to the structure of space-time itself: "The cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the devotion without which pioneer work in theoretical science cannot be achieved are able to grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work, remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue. What a deep conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand, were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labor in disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics!" _________________________________________ [The article has been reprinted in Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions, based on Mein Weltbild, ed. by Carl Seelig and other sources, new translations and revisions by Sonja Bargmann (New York, Crown Publishers, 1954), 36-40, and also in Albert Einstein, The World as I See It (New York: Philosophical Library, 1949), 24-28.] _________________________________________ EINSTEIN AND PAUL TILLICH See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality, Chapter 11, "Tillich and Einstein" Paul Tillich and Reinhold Niebuhr were the two most famous theologians at Union Theological Seminary in New York City. In Tillich's counter article to Einstein's piece, he agreed with Einstein that the idea of a personal God was an outmoded myth. The real Higher Power was an impersonal absolute (which Tillich called "the ground of being"). But Tillich argued that personalistic language was very valuable in talking about our relationship to this Higher Power, as long as we remembered that this image of a personal God watching out for us was metaphorical and symbolic only. It was only a sign post pointing to a higher reality, where that higher reality was a completely impersonal and indescribable abyss of non-being, which could give us the gift of new being when our old lives had collapsed into ruins, but which would swallow us up into non-being at the end of our lives. It is true that Father Samuel Moor Shoemaker III, rector of Calvary Episcopal Church from 1928 to 1952, and the American leader of the Oxford Group during the 1930's (continuing until he broke with the Oxford Group in 1941), was a figure known to everyone in the theological world of New York City. But it was people like PAUL TILLICH, REINHOLD NIEBUHR, EMMET FOX, and HARRY EMERSON FOSDICK who were more typical of the general theological spirit of the city during the period when Alcoholics Anonymous was being formed. I am not trying to talk here about what the Christians believed who originally built Winchester cathedral in England back during the Middle Ages, nor about what today's Anglican pastors preach and teach in their cathedrals and parishes in the British Isles, but about what Bill Wilson felt when he walked into that cathedral as a young soldier, and about how -- some fifteen years later in New York City -- he interpreted what he had once felt there so long ago. Winchester cathedral was the site of one of his earliest experiences of "cosmic religious feeling," or as he would describe it in the Big Book, "catapulted into what I like to call the fourth dimension of existence" (p. 8) or "rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence of which we had not even dreamed" (p. 25). That is what Winchester symbolizes in the AA movement, and you don't have to believe in a personal God to understand it. Just stand in the cathedral or at the tomb of the Hampshire Grenadier and softly recite the Serenity Prayer, and be thankful for what you feel while doing that, and where you've gotten in your life, now you have put it on this new basis. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8416. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 12:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Wallace Gillam shown twice? #29, and #83. Is it possible to be two of the first one hundred? split personality? - - - - > > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY > > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron > > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron > > 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron > > 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ > > 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron > > 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron > > 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD > > 9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT > > 10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron > > 11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron > > 12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron > > 13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY > > 14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland > > 15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland > > 16 Harry Latta Jul-36 Akron > > 17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron > > 18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron > > 19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron > > 20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron > > 21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ > > 22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ > > 23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron > > 24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron > > 25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland > > 26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron > > 27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron > > 28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron > > 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron > > 30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland > > 31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland > > 32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron > > 33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron > > 34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ > > 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron > > 36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron > > 37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ > > 38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron > > 39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron > > 40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron > > 41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron > > 42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ > > 43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron > > 44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron > > 45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron > > 46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron > > 47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY > > 48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron > > 49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron > > 50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron > > 51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron > > 52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron > > 53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron > > 54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron > > 55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron > > 56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron > > 57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron > > 58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron > > 59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron > > 60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY > > 61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland > > 62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland > > 63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY > > 64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY > > 65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT > > 66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY > > 67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY > > 68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron > > 69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY > > 70 Robert Taylor May38 NY > > 71 George Williams Jun-38 NY > > 72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ > > 73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA > > 74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY > > 75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI > > 76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY > > 77 James Scott Sep38 Akron > > 78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron > > 79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland > > 80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland > > 81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY > > 82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland > > 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron > > 84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron > > 85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ > > 86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron > > 87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ > > 88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ > > 89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY > > 90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ > > 91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA > > 92 William Worton Feb39 NY > > 93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY > > 94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ > > 95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ > > 96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ > > 97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ > > 98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ > > 99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ > > 100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ > > > > Other Names - Shortly after April 1st or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers > > Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard > > Brooke B Shep Cornell > > Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves > > Alec Johnson Ned Foote > > Gordon S. Russell Rathbone > > Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins > > Ernie Gerig Marty Mann > > John Reese Albert Golrick > > Harry Nash Grenville Curtis > > Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans > > Don McClean Oscar Vieths > > Rowland Jones Bill Cousins > > Sterling Parker Joe Mina > > Tom Pierce Jackie Williams IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8417. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred -- Harlan Spencer From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 12:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Harlan Spencer, AA#28, who some believe is the model for Jim, the milk and whiskey guy in the big book, is buried in the same cemetery as Dr Bob and Ann Smith: Mount Peace Cemetery, Akron OH. Section 17, Lot 4, Grave 7. His obituary does not show him as a car salesman however. It says "He worked as a salesman here for the Hardware and Supply Co. and later for the Summit Electric Co ..." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8418. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred -- how many stayed sober? From: M.J. Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 1:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there a document that describes what the outcome was for the first 100? That is, which stayed sober permanently, which stayed sober after one or more relapses, and which went back to drinking? I searched the archive and didn't find anything immediately referenceable ... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8419. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Winchester cathedral From: pamelafro88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 4:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Recently visited the tombstone with the doggerel at Winchester Cathedral. A guide confided that "Lots of Alcoholics Anonymous people visit here for some reason". She obviously didn't recognise yet another pilgrim! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8420. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred -- Earl T. in Chicago From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 9:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It seems to me that as this list delineates more locations than NYC, Akron, and Cleveland, so shouldn't number 35, AA Pioneer Earl T., be listed as Chicago? Sure, Earl's dad ran a factory in Cuyahoga Falls and Sue Smith worked there, but Earl quickly returned, after his Akron visits, to Chicago to his life, wife, and home. Earl had the dual pioneering blessings of Dr. Bob as a sponsor and Bill W. as an equal, IMHO. The post-1939 Chicago Group also kept handwritten charts of its first fifty members and logged sobriety dates with regular updates (3 mos., 6 mos., number of slips, etc.). When there was a blank space the person's membership was in question (such as returned to drink, address lost, etc.). I always enjoyed the discovery that these lists generally kept the person's first, primary sobriety date as the qualifier. Rick, Illinois - - - - Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:29 AM Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred > > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY > > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron > > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron > > 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron > > 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ > > 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron > > 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron > > 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD . . . . . . . . . > > 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8421. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred -- Earl T. in Chicago From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2012 3:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Rick, I agree with you and have listed that change for Earl to Illinois. I have never seen a copy of that Chicago list and would love to see it. In January 1940 Bill polled both Chicago and New Jersey as well as Akron, Cleveland and NY for the stats to give an update at the Rockefeller Dinner in February of 1940. That is why the these two group rosters were completed in similar fashion, both in January of 1940. Contact me directly at Jax760@yahoo.com (Jax760 at yahoo.com) if you can help. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8422. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First One Hundred - Wallace and Ralph Gilliam From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2012 3:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII # 83 was Ralph Gillam - sorry for the smart-fill error. Regards - - - - brian koch wrote: > > Wallace Gillam shown twice? #29, and #83. Is it possible to be two of the first one hundred? split personality? > > > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY > > > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron > > > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron . . . . . . . . . . . . > > > 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron . . . . . . . . . . . . > > > 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8423. . . . . . . . . . . . Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet From: firituallyspit . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2012 2:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I moved to Florida recently and was given the job to find a speaker for the anniversary dinner. Next day, in walks into the intergroup office a quiet gentleman, Dave J., and I ask him how long has he been sober. He replies, 56 yrs, got sober in Akron. But you might have heard of my father, Larry J. He moved to Texas and he did some writing. Well here it is: http://www.aabibliography.com/larryjewell.htm Interesting ...... - - - - Note from Glenn C. the moderator: some people claim that what you have here, Larry Jewell's articles which were published in the Houston Press in April 1940, became "the first AA pamphlet." But the Rev. Dilworth Lupton (pastor of the First Unitarian Church in Cleveland, Ohio) preached a sermon on November 26, 1939 in which he warmly praised the new AA movement, shortly after the Akron alcoholics finally declared their independence from the Oxford Group in October 1939 and quit going to T. Henry and Clarace Williams’ for the weekly Oxford Group meeting. Lupton's sermon was reprinted as a pamphlet, called “Mr. X and Alcoholics Anonymous” (where Mr. X was Clarence Snyder). It was one of the earliest AA pamphlets and was used for many years by A.A. members in Cleveland to help describe the AA program to newcomers and to help spread the AA message. It is an important document because the Alcoholics Anonymous people, regardless of their own various religious backgrounds, seem to have considered it to be an excellent statement of their own understanding of what was meant by keeping AA nonsectarian, which was part of the arrangement which Sister Ignatia worked out for letting AA have the use of a ward at St. Thomas Hospital for treating new alcoholics. The AA people were not going to try to convert everybody in the ward into becoming members of the Oxford Group, and Sister Ignatia and her nuns were not going to try to convert them all to Catholicism. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8424. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sybil From: Joseph Adams . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2012 6:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I found one talk from Sybil on xa-speakers.org, available as a free download. It is from 1985 but they do not know where it was recorded; it could be your Riverside talk. http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=462 [56] She also has a talk on the Traditions from the same site. Joe A. Raleigh, North Carolina Sponsor Magazine: free downloads to support 12-Step Recovery http://sponsormagazine.org IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8425. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Names of the First One Hundred From: Gary Neidhardt . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 1:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Jack Alexander article in the Saturday Evening Post lists sobriety dates by half-years in Cleveland, Ohio, and also lists them such that people with "one slip" are listed too in the sorted order with the people who didn't slip. I think this supports James Bliss's assertion below. Gary ________________________________ From: James Bliss james.bliss@comcast.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred I do not remember where I read it, perhaps on this list, but my understanding was that in early AA they did not reset their sobriety dates for slips. One question this concept would raise is what the dividing line is between a slip and just not getting the program, drinking for several more years and then returning. But, that would explain the sobriety date for Dr. Bob being listed as May rather than June. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8426. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gideon Paul Kellogg From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2012 2:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This has been confirmed to be our very own Paul Kellogg, wife Charlotte Augusta Kellogg, "Gussie". Paul is buried in West View Cemetery, Atlanta, Georgia, Section 12, Lot 515, Grave #1. I have a map of the cemetery which shows the section. I have not yet loaded it up to the computer. "B" wrote: > > Friends, > > I am wondering if anyone who knows about the pioneers of our fellowship can tell me if Gideon Paul Kellogg is the same person as Paul Kellogg, known as AA#34 on the "counted noses" list. > > I ask this because evidence points to that. I have seen in the literature that his wife was "Gussie" Kellogg. When researching Gideon Paul I found his wife is Charlotte "Augusta" Kellogg (Hedges). Would stand to reason that "Gussie" is short for Augusta. > > Additionally the birthday of GP Kellogg is 20 Jan 1896 which would put him in the right age bracket, also there are New Jersey references in census results and his World War II draft card -- specifically, Union New Jersey. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8427. . . . . . . . . . . . Additional pioneers' graves located!! From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2012 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have found the final resting places for Wallace Gillam (#29, "Fired Again" from the first edition of the BB), JD Holmes (#17, Newspaperman, credited with starting AA in Indiana), Dr. Howard Searl (#20), Alvin Borden (#19), Robert Evans (#23), Harold Grissinger (#10), Franklin Crumrine (notice the spelling is not Krumrine, #40) and Irvin Nelson (#39). I have cemeteries on all of them, and am honing in on locations with the help of some wonderful cemetery people. I am thoroughly enjoying this project. Making inroads with Lester (or Leslie) Earl Treat, considered the founder of AA in the Chicago Area). Also have located Clarence Snyder (The Home Brewmeister and Cleveland Founder), T Henry and Clarace Williams (non AA's who were vital in our early days), Archie Trowbridge (The Man Who Overcame Fear and the founder of AA in Detroit). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8428. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First One Hundred - Harlan Spencer - car salesman? or not? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2012 3:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Amos List written by Dr Bob shows him as an auto salesman. - - - - From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 Subject: Names of the First One Hundred -- Harlan Spencer Harlan Spencer, AA#28, who some believe is the model for Jim, the milk and whiskey guy in the big book, is buried in the same cemetery as Dr Bob and Ann Smith: Mount Peace Cemetery, Akron OH. Section 17, Lot 4, Grave 7. His obituary does not show him as a car salesman however. It says "He worked as a salesman here for the Hardware and Supply Co. and later for the Summit Electric Co ..." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8429. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 2:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not doing an ad for Amazon, but it is available at a savings for pre-order there. Looks like a great read. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8430. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service Structure From: Dan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2012 9:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I could have sworn I heard Bill say this on a cassette tape called Bill on the 12 Traditions, although it has been a long time since I listened to it. I still have the tape which I had obtained from GSO. The label on the tape simply says: ======================================== Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc Bill on 12 Traditions (Side 1) (Side 2) ======================================== Dan Roe Chicago ________________________________________________ Message #8412 from Denez McD denezmcd@aol.com> One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service Structure http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8412 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8431. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Winchester cathedral From: pamelafro88 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2012 10:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Did you know that the tombstone is not actually the one Bill saw - it has been replaced twice, the latest time in the 60's I believe after vandalism. The wording is somewhat different too than that in the BB. It says "Here sleeps in peace and Hampshire Grenadier Who caught his death by drinking cold small beer Soldiers be wise from his untimely fall And when ye're hot drink strong or not all" Whether it has been altered in the reconstruction, or Bill used poetic license or had a faulty memory, who knows? By the way, the guide at the Cathedral said that even children drank 'small beer' as it was somewhat safer than the local water supply. It was only mildly alcoholic. She also said that the Grenadier's death is said to be from the effects of drinking a cold beer after just having completed a grueling march, and being overheated. - - - - From Glenn C. the moderator: Bill W. was trying to quote the poem from memory, and didn't get it quite right. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8432. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2012 7:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The same author covered some of the same ground in an earlier book, The Harvard Psychedelic Club: How Timothy Leary, Ram Dass, Huston Smith and Andrew Weil Killed the Fifties and Ushered in a New Age for America. That one is available at good prices from used book sites, and some libraries have it. Although the men in the subtitle are the primary focus, Huxley and Heard figure prominently and there is some material on Wilson. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8433. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Winchester cathedral -- Einstein on cosmic religious feeling From: John Steeves . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2012 3:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8434. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service Str... From: jm48301@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2012 2:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From http://www.aaworkshop.org/as-bill-sees-it.php A.A.: Benign Anarchy and Democracy When we come into A.A. we find a greater personal freedom than any other society knows. We cannot be compelled to do anything. In that sense our Society is a benign anarchy. The word "anarchy" has a bad meaning to most of us. But I think that the idealist who first advocated the concept felt that if only men were granted absolute liberty, and were compelled to obey no one, they would then voluntarily associate themselves in the common interest. A.A. is an association of the benign sort he envisioned. But when we had to go into action -- to function as groups -- we discovered that we also had to become a democracy. As our oldtimers retired, we therefore began to elect our trusted servants by majority vote. Each group in this sense became a town meeting. All plans for group action had to be approved by the majority. This meant that no single individual could appoint himself to act for his group or for A.A. as a whole. Neither dictatorship nor paternalism was for us. A.A. COMES OF AGE, pp. 224-225 _____________________________________________ In a message dated 5/3/2012 2:35:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, denezmcd@aol.com writes: Please help my friend Dennis McD get the answer to his question: ==================== From: gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net (gratefuldennis at sbcglobal.net) When Bill was running around promoting the General Service Structure in one of his talks he mentioned how we need to move from a benign anarchy to a majority ruled democracy. I lost this when my computer crashed recently so does anyone know about this talk and where I can get a hold of a copy. If anyone is on AA History Lovers perhaps they can find out. Thank you; Dennis M. ==================== IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8435. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Additional pioneers' graves located!! From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2012 6:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you for the correct spelling of Frank Crumrine. I recall Jared and I debating this some time back. The Amos list had him with a "K" and the Cleveland list had him with a "C." Whenever there has been a spelling conflict I have tended to give Dr Bob the benefit of the doubt. God Bless, John B - - - - From: B kochbrian@hotmail.com> Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 Subject: Additional pioneers' graves located!! I have found the final resting places for ... Franklin Crumrine (notice the spelling is not Krumrine, #40) .... I have cemeteries on all of them, and am honing in on locations with the help of some wonderful cemetery people. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8436. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service... From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2012 8:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I had mentioned that the statement "Neither dictatorship nor paternalism was for us" did not seem to be on page 224-225. It seems it is an added statement and not part of the referenced quote. - - - - jm48301@aol.com writes: From http://www.aaworkshop.org/as-bill-sees-it.php Neither dictatorship nor paternalism was for us. A.A. COMES OF AGE, pp. 224-225 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8437. . . . . . . . . . . . We have lost another piece of history: Ruth O'Neil From: momaria33772 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2012 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ruth O'Neil passed away on Sunday April 22, 2012. She was 97 years old & had just celebrated 68 years of sobriety on April 14. Sober since 1944, It is possible Ruth had the longest living sobriety of any woman or man at the time of her death. Ruth was a wonderful power of example in all that she did. She loved to laugh, to eat, to sing & dance, to speak at meetings & she loved her chocolate! She was a wonderful friend & a great sponsor. We will surely miss you, Ruthie ! 1n 1995 at the International in San Diego at the longtimers meeting, the crowds went wild begging for additional time allowance after she was "Gonged". Her talks were a great wealth of history. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8438. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet From: rsmith77379 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/5/2012 6:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Houston Intergroup recently ran a series of articles on "How AA Came to Houston" which, of course, prominently featured Larry J. Shortly afterward, I also had the pleasure of hearing from Dave J. If anyone is interested, I can upload links to the articles. In our files (available from the archives in NY) are copies of letters between Bill W. and Larry J. which discuss the articles that Larry wrote for the Houston Press. Bill W. requested permission to reprint them in a pamphlet form. I think that the slight differentiation here -- which was the first pamphlet, this one which was based on the Houston Post articles, or the "Mr. X and Alcoholics Anonymous" pamphlet in Cleveland? -- is that the Houston pamphlet became the first thing published by New York after the Big Book. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8439. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill and Lois's apartment - 38 Livingston St., Brooklyn From: Karla . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2012 6:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What floor did Bill and Lois live on at their 38 Livingston St address? - - - - Note from G.C. the moderator: for the historical context see Arthur S., Narrative Timeline of AA History http://silkworth.net/aafiles/timelines_public.html Summer 1927, Bill W and Lois went to Cuba to investigate the Cuban Sugar Co. in Havana. Bill’s drinking created many problems and he accomplished little. On returning to NY, Bill W and Lois rented a three-room apartment at 38 Livingston St in Brooklyn. Not big enough for Bill’s desires, he enlarged it by renting the apartment next door and knocking out the walls between them. (BW-RT 144, LR 71, PIO 80-81) 1929: Oct 29 (black Tuesday) the Stock Market collapsed .... Bill’s friend, Dick Johnson, offered him a job in Montreal with Greenshields and Co. By Christmas the Wilsons were in Canada (BW-RT 152-154, LOH 367, LR 81, PIO 85-86, RAA 148-149, BW-FH 44-46) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8440. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet From: Jayson D Jones MA, MARE, LCDC . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2012 9:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am actually looking for high resolution copies of the Larry Jewel letters for the South East Texas Area archives which covers all of the Houston area. I have copies of copies of copies, and some lower resolution copies from Arthur S. of North East Texas Area archives. Can anyone assist me with this? I have tried e-mailing the archives in New York, but have received no response. Any help would be appreciated. Jayson J Katy, Texas Work: (281) 400-3643 E-mail: jjones@tota-texas.org (jjones at tota-texas.org) Cell: (281) 435-0227 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8441. . . . . . . . . . . . Bible passages that some of AA's early friends liked From: MattD . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2012 9:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHL, I had a question for the group about Bible passages that were found useful by some of AA's early friends. Here's what was compiled by Tom P. — early AA member and who was the main editor of our fellowship's first AA history book: AACOA. Tom knew all the men below personally (with the exception of Buchman) and compiled this list of Bible passages that some of AA's early friends found helpful. (Although, Tom did know men who knew Buchman — such as Shoemaker.) Anyway, much has been published here and there about these early friends and I am wondering if the following info can be verified? Or added to: Dr. Bob & Bill W., as we all know, recommended: the Sermon on the Mount, 1 Corinthians 13, and Epistle of James Frank Buchman found the following particularly useful: Psalm 23, 32, 103, 121, John 17, and II Timothy 2 Father Dowling found the following particularly useful: John 19:25-27 Dr. Tiebout found the following particularly useful: Psalm 1, 23 Proverbs 1:2-7 Dr. Silkworth found the following particularly useful: II Kings 6:8-17 Father Shoemaker found the following particularly useful: John 17:1-26 and 19:25-27 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8442. . . . . . . . . . . . One Alcoholic Talking to Another From: aliasjb . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2012 4:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This gets quoted as part of an AA program of recovery. When and where does it first appear in print? (I see it in the forward to the 3rd Edition, but that wasn't written until 1976). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8443. . . . . . . . . . . . Using written notes when speaking to an AA group From: Charlie Parker . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2012 9:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard about a quote from an old pamphlet that basically said that "if one is giving a long talk that one should take notes in order to be concise and to not waste peoples time". Words to that effect anyway that at least addressed using notes at a podium. Has anybody seen this or know where it came from? Charlie P. Austin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8444. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Winchester cathedral - ref. to Paul Tillich, Reinhold Niebuhr From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2012 11:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For those lacking background on "PAUL TILLICH, REINHOLD NIEBUHR" et. al., the following snippet (pp 31-35) from *Introduction to Psychology, Religion, and Spirituality,* 2009, might be of benefit as it closes with a brief explication of Niebuhr's views on both literal altruism and a convenient recapitulation of Tillich's take on finitude or "not-God-ness" (for lack of a better expression). Thankfully, EK and/or GC indicated to me in an earlier post that the title of N-G probably derived from one of these. Again, no one suspected it came from the AA vernacular, "There is a God, and you're not Him," else he'd have said so expressly. Based upon what appears below, which I encountered for the first time about 15 minutes ago, all I can say now is I'm a firm believer - with an eye to the roots AND the fruits. Why not have your cake and eat it to? "Bringing it all back home," so to speak...Kurtz's section called "Main Deep Point," in his article "Spirituality of William James" (1999) apparently also leans heavily on Niebuhr but not Reinhold; this time RICHARD NIEBUHR, author of "William James on Religious Experience," [Chapter 11; see p 220] contained in *The Cambridge Companion to William James,* (1997, digital 2005). ~ ~ ~ 1.5 Religious and Theological Responses to Psychology During the early part of the 20th century the theological response to scientific psychology was muted. Protestant Christian theology was heavily influenced by the neo-orthodox position of Karl Barth (1886–1968), who believed that theology should be based totally upon "the Word of God" rather than human experience or psychological theory. Protestant dialogue during this period was mostly carried out in the context of the pastoral counseling and theology movements. In Roman Catholicism, the situation was somewhat different. Early Catholic psychologists like Edward Pace (1861–1938) and Thomas Verner Moore (1877–1969) were ordained priests with substantial training in theology and a commitment to working as psychologists within the Catholic context. While this situation was more favorable for dialogue, there was often opposition by suspicious members of the Catholic hierarchy (Gillespie, 2001). However, by mid-century more Protestant writers had begun to join the dialogue. Especially noteworthy are Paul Tillich (1886–1965) and Reinhold Niebuhr (1892–1971). 32 1.5.1 Paul Tillich Theological responses to psychology are influenced not only by the individual views of the theologian toward psychology but also by their theological stance. Tillich adopted an apologetic approach to theology that began with human experience and tried to make the Christian message appealing to contemporary thinkers, rather than a kerygmatic stance (e.g., Karl Barth) that gives priority to the basic Christian message (Cooper, 2006, p. 196). Tillich called his apologetic approach the "method of correlation" (1951, pp. 60–63). He analyzed the human situation using materials from contemporary thought and then reinterpreted Christian theology to show how the Christian message provided answers to modern questions (1957, pp. 28, 239). His method was dialectical, and he tended to avoid the approach of later writers who wanted to critically evaluate the positions taken by secular and scientific writers (1963a, p. 51; Tracy, 1975, p. 46). He used two primary tools in building his system—the existential philosophy of writers like Soren Kierkegaard or Martin Heidegger, and the insights of psychoanalysis. 1.5.1.1 Tillich and the Human Existential Situation Existentialism tries to understand the human person by looking at their connection to the ultimate characteristics of existence like freedom (we all have the power to make choices and change or transcend our situation) and finitude (we always work within limitations and eventually will die). Religion for him was intimately connected to these ultimate concerns and our attempts at self-transcendence, a focus shared with humanistic psychology (1963b, p. 107; Maslow, 1964, p. 45). In his theology, Tillich emphasized the transcendence of an infinitely free God who is not only the ground of all nature but beyond it as well. Tillich argued that this dialectic between nature and freedom is also repeated in our human situation. We are part of the natural world and thus finite, but we also transcend the natural world because we possess a finite version of God's infinite freedom. The tension between these forms the basis of what Tillich called an "existential gap" or existential situation. The dialectic between the constraints of existence and nature and our essential freedom is "the condition for man's religious existence" (1957, p. 10). The transcending possibility of spirit and freedom means that religion cannot be reduced to psychological dynamics or moral self-integration (1963b, pp. 118, 192). 1.5.1.2 Tillich and Depth Psychology Tillich used psychoanalysis to help articulate the psychological dynamics involved in dealing with ultimate concerns. An individual who is able to stand at the balance point between the demands of existence and their essence as a free person he referred to as "centered" (1957, p. 60). He saw this state of balance or self integration as the goal of a healthy life. However, Tillich argued that this ideal 33 balance can never be realized because we are finite and unable to assimilate the many conflicting demands of existence. The result of this lack of balance is confusion, self-alienation, and meaninglessness, leaving us at the mercy of internal compulsions and external demands. It is our awareness of this situation of finitude, lack of meaning and helplessness that leads to ontological anxiety, a basic tension that is built into existence and must be accepted. This anxiety is different from neurotic anxiety that is caused by psychological problems and is open to psychological help (1957, p. 34; 2000; Cooper, 2006, pp. 37–52). Fleeing from ontological anxiety creates neurotic anxiety and irrational or unreasonable fears that tie up the person with inner conflicts. However, through the religious life and support of a spiritual community, people could embrace a capacity for transcendence and by making appropriate "moral" choices develop a genuine sense of identity (1963b). Science, on the other hand, is unable to understand or help with ontological anxiety because it detaches existence from transcendence and tries to explain and control everything on a purely natural basis. Perhaps in part because of his correlational method and his own personal experience with traumatic anxiety as a chaplain during World War I, Tillich was quite open to the basic findings of psychoanalysis such as the existence and power of unconscious motives and their impact on some religious activities, as well as the problem of guilt and the need for acceptance (1957, p. 177; 1963b; Cooper, 2006, p. 41). He appreciated and accepted Freud's work, although he observed that it had limitations because it ignored our existential situation and our essential nature as free persons. Not surprisingly, Tillich also rejected Freud's apparent position of total psychological or biological determinism (1957, pp. 54, 66). He was more ambivalent toward behaviorism; for instance, he rejected the idea that life processes are oriented toward the pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain because hedonistic views ignored the presence of other forces like creativity (1963b, p. 56). 1.5.1.3 Tillich, Fromm and Rogers Terry Cooper (2006) notes that there are a number of interesting points of agreement and disagreement between Tillich and humanists like Fromm and Rogers. Tillich and Fromm had a long acquaintance that went back to their days in Germany; both were influenced by Marx and Freud, but they had many disagreements as well. Tillich agreed with Fromm that selfishness and self-hate rather than self-love are the basic human problems. However, Tillich saw that these problems could not be solved apart from God, while Fromm wanted to eliminate God talk from the conversation altogether. Fromm thought that we have tendencies toward both good and evil and can choose good, overcoming our problems without help. Tillich believed our estrangement was too great for self-solution and that we had a need to wait for help, a passivity that was offensive to Fromm. Tillich and the humanistic psychologist Carl Rogers also had some areas of agreement in addition to their differences. Rogers and Tillich both saw inner conflict or self estrangement as a basic human problem, but they had different ideas about the nature 34 of estrangement and how acceptance helps. Rogers saw self-estrangement as an incongruence between our true self and societal expectations or pressures that thwart our drive toward growth. His answer to this was an experience of unconditional positive regard by a therapist or other person who sets aside their values and is nonjudgmental. Tillich, on the other hand, argued that estrangement is ultimately built into existence, so we need more than human sources of acceptance (Cooper, 2006, p. 5). Tillich also rejected the claim made by Rogers that psychotherapy can and should be value free. In Tillich's view, any relationship — including the therapeutic relationship — involves a commitment to some kind of values. Cooper argues that Rogers viewed himself as making psychological claims but that actually his theory reveals many hidden theological or ontological assumptions that go beyond "scientific psychology." While Tillich was extremely influential in the psychology and religion dialogue during the 1950s through the 1970s, he is less so today as his existential approach is not central to contemporary discussions (Polkinghorne, 2004, p. 51). Tillich tended to describe highly personal encounters with abstract concepts that are seemingly removed from qualities of personal care and love. Fromm even questioned whether Tillich's thought really represented an authentic statement of the Christian faith (Cooper, 2006). Nevertheless an understanding of his work is vital in the study of the psychology and religion dialogue. 1.5.2 Reinold Niebuhr Another prominent 20th-century theologian and participant in the dialogue was Reinold Niebuhr (1955; 1996a,b), who produced some interesting theological perspectives on Freud. While Niebuhr approved of some of Freud's positions such as his vision of human complexity, he had a number of criticisms of Freud, including his denial of transcendence and freedom. 1.5.2.1 Niebuhr's View of the Human Person Niebuhr believed that each of us is finite and thus bound by the laws of nature, but at the same time we are free and able to transcend our situation; we are "a unity of finiteness and freedom, of involvement in natural processes and transcendence over process" (1996b, p. 113). This self-transcendence is evident in the way that our natural impulses run beyond the bounds of nature, while nonhuman animals are restrained by natural instinct. This contradiction between finiteness and freedom or transcendence is the occasion—but not the cause—for many human problems. "This essential homelessness of the human spirit is the ground of religion; for the self which stands outside itself and the world cannot find the meaning of life in itself or the world" (1996a, p. 14). In Niebuhr's view, the tension between our two natures has important consequences. It causes anxiety, which can be a source of creativity or a motivation to hide our finiteness and freedom. When we avoid our finiteness, we ignore our 35 limitations, leading us to overestimate ourselves as individuals or as a race. This can lead to arrogance and fanaticism, either in rationality or religion. Avoidance of our freedom is also problematic, for it blinds us to human potentials such as the possibility for true altruism. It also hides from us the possibility that freedom has both creative and evil possibilities and so can be misused. Contemporary history is full of evidence of the potential for evil in modern systems of warfare, power, and economics, but we still deny this evil potential, supposing that somehow these problems are just due to ignorance, not enough science, or social forces which we are about to overcome, rather than seeing our poor choices. Remorse and repentance (as opposed to simple psychological guilt) are thus in some sense religious experiences, because they show an awareness of our situation of finiteness before God. ~ ~ ~ Best, Paul _____________________________________________ Glenn Chesnut wrote: > EINSTEIN AND PAUL TILLICH > > See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality, Chapter 11, "Tillich and Einstein" > > Paul Tillich and Reinhold Niebuhr were the two most famous theologians at Union Theological Seminary in New York City. In Tillich's counter article to Einstein's piece, he agreed with Einstein that the idea of a personal God was an outmoded myth. The real Higher Power was an impersonal absolute (which Tillich called "the ground of being"). But Tillich argued that personalistic language was very valuable in talking about our relationship to this Higher Power, as long as we remembered that this image of a personal God watching out for us was metaphorical and symbolic only. It was only a sign post pointing to a higher reality, where that higher reality was a completely impersonal and indescribable abyss of non-being, which could give us the gift of new being when our old lives had collapsed into ruins, but which would swallow us up into non-being at the end of our lives. > > It is true that Father Samuel Moor Shoemaker III, rector of Calvary Episcopal Church from 1928 to 1952, and the American leader of the Oxford Group during the 1930's (continuing until he broke with the Oxford Group in 1941), was a figure known to everyone in the theological world of New York City. > > But it was people like PAUL TILLICH, REINHOLD NIEBUHR, EMMET FOX, and HARRY EMERSON FOSDICK who were more typical of the general theological spirit of the city during the period when Alcoholics Anonymous was being formed. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8445. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2012 4:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ALDOUS HUXLEY (1894-1963), THE PERENNIAL PHILOSOPHY (1945): The Perennial Philosophy is available for free download here - http://knowledgefiles.com/categories/religions/the-perennial-philosophy/ I read Brave New World and The Doors of Perception but that was over two decades ago and no one was recommending The Perennial Philosophy. Or maybe they were and I wasn't paying close enough attention. =========================================== FRITHJOF SCHUON (1907-1998), THE TRANSCENDENT UNITY OF RELIGIONS (1953): Yesterday I stumbled upon http://ojs-prod.library.usyd.edu.au/index.php/SSR/issue/archive which is the main archival page of the open source Sydney Studies in Religion. Once you get there, the "Heart of the Religio Perennis: Frithjof Schuon on Esotericism" makes comparisons between Huxley's "popular" perennialism and Schuon's "traditional" version discussed at http://ojs-prod.library.usyd.edu.au/index.php/SSR/article/view/275/254 in the *Esotericism and the Control of Knowledge* edition. The 34 page article just listed says: "Schuon's published work forms an imposing corpus and covers a staggering range of religious and metaphysical subjects without any of the superficialities and simplifications that we normally expect from someone covering such a vast territory. His works on specific religious traditions have commanded respect from scholars and practitioners within the traditions in question. As well as publishing over twenty books he was a prolific contributor to journals such as Etudes Traditionnelles, Islamic Quarterly, Tomorrow, Studies in Comparative Religion and Sophia Perennis. All of his major works, written in French, have now been published in English. Schuon's writings are governed by an unchanging set of metaphysical principles. They exhibit nothing of a 'development' or 'evolution' but are, rather, re-statements of the same principles from different vantage points and brought to bear on divergent phenomena. His work is concerned with the re-affirmation of traditional metaphysical principles, with an explication of the esoteric dimensions of religion, with the penetration of mythological and religious forms, and with the critique of a modernism that is indifferent (or openly hostile) to the principles which inform all traditional wisdoms. His general position was defined in his first book to appear in English, The Transcendent Unity of Religions (1953), of which T.S. Eliot remarked, 'I have met with no more impressive work on the comparative study of Oriental and Occidental religion'" Best, Paul IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8446. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Using written notes when speaking to an AA group From: Gary Neidhardt . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2012 4:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the A.A. Speakers Manual, published by the Akron Intergroup, available today in reprint form from which I'm quoting the following: "Your talk deserves the best effort you can put into it. Anything having to do with sobriety deserves nothing but the best. You can avoid the embarrassment of stumbling around groping for words and ideas if you will use the forethought of preparation. This does not mean sit down and write out a speech. But organize your subject matter beforehand if you have any doubts as to your memory and remember, you may experience stage fright - prepare written notes. After preparing them, follow them closely or you may get off on a tangent, find yourself in a thicket of verbage, and have difficulty in finding your way back into your notes. Remember, you owe your audience some consideration. To speak before a group with no preparation is an insult to their intelligence." and the pamphet continues: "BE BRIEF There is a saying among mondern clergymen: 'No soul is saved after the first twenty minutes.' The two hour, yes, even the one hour sermon is a thing iof the past. In almost all cases effectiveness is lost after thirty minutes. After the first half hour the average listener starts to wonder when the speaker will come to a climax and stop talking. His mind wanders, and what good the leader has done in his first half hour immediatley comes undone. The longer he continues to talk, the less his listener will remember when it is all over. Remember, alcoholics are restless people. They squirmed at sermons, twitched at movies, avoided long plays and concerts, almost never attended lectures. Demosthenes himself could not hold an alcoholic audience for more than half an hour. Don't flatter yourself by thinking you can. If you don't own a watch, borrow one and keep an eagle eye on it. When your half hour is running out, come to a speedy conclusion. Your audience will be profoundly grateful."  No wonder lead meetings in Akron don't have a lead last more than a half an hour!  And I must confess to squirming, twitching, avoiding, and having my mind wander during an   IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8447. . . . . . . . . . . . William Jones -- aka Bill J From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2012 2:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking for some difinitive info on William Jones, aka Bill J in the Pass It On book. specifically, if his middle name is Bevan, what his wife's name was, specific birthdate .... I have found a William Bevan Jones that matches timeline-wise, and location wise. Just trying to check it 100%. Thanks - - - - From G.C. the moderator: Silkworth.net lists two people by that name http://silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesb.html Bill J. - early Akron A.A., salesman, slipped in Cincinnati, (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers page 119) Bill J. - Cleveland banker (probably bank teller), received requests for help from AA in Cleveland, stayed with Oxford Group when Cleveland group split off (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers pages 167, 204, 218) Also see: http://hindsfoot.org/amostype.pdf http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6640 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2764 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8448. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson From: J.BARRY Murtaugh . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2012 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I couldn't find presale on Amazon. Hot link went to Un of Cal. press Got mine in. Amazon will no doubt sell it for $8.95 out of the chute. Oh well! Authors deserve their just pay. University of California Press Order ConfirmationQUANTITY TITLEAVAILABILITYUNIT PRICE PRICE 1Distilled Spirits Getting High, Then Sober, with a Famous Writer, a Forgotten Philosopher, and a Hopeless Drunk Cloth - ISBN: 9780520272323 Forthcoming, expected to ship on Sep 2 2012. $29.95 $29.95 Best Regards, J.Barry Murtaugh Court Maroon, Ltd. 773-851-2100 - - - - On Tue, May 1, 2012, brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Not doing an ad for Amazon, but it is available at a savings for pre-order there. Looks like a great read. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8449. . . . . . . . . . . . The Therapeutic Value of the Twelve Steps of AA From: dicklunsford . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2012 7:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is the title of a pamphlet written by Dr Edward J Delahanty, MD and published by the Utah Alcoholism Foundation. There'no date on the copy we have here. Can anyone tell me - the date it was published? - Was it conference approved? - How widely was it used? Thanks, Dick IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8450. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Using written notes when speaking to an AA group From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2012 9:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This pamphlet is available for purchase from their website. - - - - From: morningmael@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 From the A.A. Speakers Manual, published by the Akron Intergroup, available today in reprint form from which I'm quoting the following: "Your talk deserves the best effort you can put into it .... You can avoid the embarrassment of stumbling around groping for words and ideas if you will use the forethought of preparation .... prepare written notes ...." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8451. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2012 2:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Pre order on amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/189-3727888-0508643?url=search-alias% 3Dap\ s&field-keywords=Getting+High%2C+Then+Sober%2C+with+a 3;Famous+Writer%2C+a+Forgott\ en+Philosopher%2C [57] - - - - From: murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 Subject: Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson I couldn't find presale on Amazon. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8452. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Names of the First One Hundred -- Bill A. From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2012 7:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Chuck Parkhurst, bobhickey674, and John Barton (jax760) - - - - Does all the hub-bub I have seen on AAHL change the list below and if so where does this Bill A guy belong now? - - - - From: "bobhickey674" bobhickey674@yahoo.com> (bobhickey674 at yahoo.com) I'm looking for information on Bill Ames who got sober in 1938. He and Fitz would ride the train together to NY. - - - - Message #8403 from John Barton jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) So here is what I had on Bill A. and thanks to Jared for helping me with the last name. The info below in italics is from the Timelines of the First 25 AA Groups. What do you have to support a 38 SOB date for Bill Ames? Do you have something with Fitz's name attached to it or a letter or recording from Bill A stating his SOB? If so I'd be happy to add him to the list but we need a sufficient piece of evidence to support this. Pass It On has Hardin C. and Bill (A.) joining with Fitz in 1940. The story from Donald Graham as detailed in Nancy's Bio of Fitz comes from Graham's recollection many years later and can not by itself be considered authoritative. A.A. Group # 10 Washington D.C. At first he (Fitz) met with minimal success, but by the fall of 1939 the nucleus of a small group had been established in Washington. He had been long a loner in Washington, but Fitz was eventually joined by Hardin C. and Bill A.[note 2] and was also joined by Florence Rankin Note 2. When Bill Wilson died in 1971, Donald E. Graham, now the publisher of The Washington Post, but then a young man learning the family business from the ground up, and working as a staff writer, interviewed me. Graham's story says in part: "Bill A., an Arlington businessman, recalled that in December 1939, when Alcoholics Anonymous was a small, little known group, he went to New York to meet Mr. Wilson. The next month Mr. Wilson helped start an AA chapter here, the fourth in the country." From the Biography of Fitz M. by Nancy O. John Barton's Comments: Based on the comments of Bill A. this group (Washington D.C.) would be December of 1939. Arrival of Ned Foote supports this. However, actual start of Group may have been January of 1940. See PIO p.257 N2 Washington Intergroup History lists date as October 28, 1939 but this is in variance with PIO. In lieu of discrepancy we list this group as the first group of December 1939. - - - - Message #8397 from jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) Re: Names of the First One Hundred Hi Bob, So who is Bill Ames of Virginia and how did he get sober in 1938? Who from the list of 89 pioneers (sober through 12/39) carried the message to him and in what fashion is that documented? Since I have never read of or heard of Bill Ames in any AA History before I would love to hear more. Thanks and God Bless - - - - Message #8395 from bobhickey674@yahoo.com> (bobhickey674 at yahoo.com) Re: Names of the First One Hundred I checked out your list and you seem to have missed Bill Ames of Virginia who got sober in 1938 ______________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: John Barton Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 Subject: Names of the First One Hundred Fellow History Lovers, Below are the names of more than 125 "pioneers" who are believed to have been involved with the fellowship prior to, or up to and including, April of 1939. There are only two people listed whose last names have remained elusive. I believe this is the most comprehensive list of pioneering members produced to date. The sources for this list are varied and include AA literature, several different archives, personal letters, diaries, the work of other historians including published and unpublished manuscripts, other known lists such as The Cleveland Akron 220/226, Pioneers by Date of Sobriety, A New Light on the First Forty, The NJ Survey from Jan 1940,The Amos List, Who's Who in AA, etc. Sober dates have been determined as best as possible from the sources listed and taking into account that a person's "spiritual birthday" sometimes did not factor in a known relapse such as Dr Bob's date listed as May of 34 (see the comments for the Amos List SOB in The Golden Road) Are there many more names that should be on this list? I suspect the answer is yes! I have no info on new members in Akron for the first few months of 1939 and no doubt there were several, perhaps many! More research is required at a future date. Were there "One Hundred Men and Women" on or before the book was published April 10,1939? Bill wrote many many times to different people that there were and the available evidence seems to support this. Many historians and authors who counted less than 100 previously might not have had access to all the lists including the Amos List (for example compare to Pioneer by Date of Sobriety List). Others may have followed statements made by some pioneers like Jimmy Burwell who said Bill rounded up or exaggerated the claim. Was Jimmy well informed? Did he know who all the Akron/Cleveland members were? Not all of his recorded AA history (memoirs) have proved accurate. Perhaps we've been wrong all along in saying there were only 60 to 70? Was everyone on this list still sober or with the fellowship in April of 1939? Probably not but then as noted above there were probably many new members who were not properly documented or remain truly anonymous to us till this day. So perhaps there actually was "One Hundred Men and Women" who were staying sober by following the outlined program when the book came out. I would love to hear if anybody can contribute information on any of the less well know names on this list or any other sources which can be used to prove or disprove the validity or the placement of a name on this list. Does anyone believe a name has been missed? Many believe Ebby should have been included. People like Wes, Eddie, and Russ eventually sobered up, should they be included? Cebra later joined AA in Paris. How about Don, the Cohoes banker who was sober in 36 but then seems to have faded off? Do you have any reasonable evidence to support your claim? Please let me know your comments! PS If anyone can provide me the last name for Gordon S. or Brooke B. both believed to be from New York Group before 1939 I would be forever in your debt! 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD 9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT 10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron 11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron 12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron 13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY 14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland 15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland 16 Harry Latta Jul-36 Akron 17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron 18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron 19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron 20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron 21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ 22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ 23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron 24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron 25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland 26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron 27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron 28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron 30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland 31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland 32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron 33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron 34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron 36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron 37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ 38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron 39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron 40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron 41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron 42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ 43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron 44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron 45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron 46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron 47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY 48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron 49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron 50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron 51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron 52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron 53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron 54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron 55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron 56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron 57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron 58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron 59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron 60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY 61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland 62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland 63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY 64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY 65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT 66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY 67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY 68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron 69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY 70 Robert Taylor May38 NY 71 George Williams Jun-38 NY 72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ 73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA 74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY 75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI 76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY 77 James Scott Sep38 Akron 78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron 79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland 80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland 81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY 82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron 84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron 85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ 86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron 87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ 88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ 89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY 90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ 91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA 92 William Worton Feb39 NY 93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY 94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ 95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ 96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ 97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ 98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ 99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ 100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ Other Names - Shortly after April 1st or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard Brooke B Shep Cornell Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves Alec Johnson Ned Foote Gordon S. Russell Rathbone Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins Ernie Gerig Marty Mann John Reese Albert Golrick Harry Nash Grenville Curtis Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans Don McClean Oscar Vieths Rowland Jones Bill Cousins Sterling Parker Joe Mina Tom Pierce Jackie Williams IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8453. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: We have lost another piece of history: Ruth O'Neil From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2012 8:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Bill Lash, CloydG, and Corey Franks - - - - From: Bill Lash barefootbill@optonline.net> (barefootbill at optonline.net) Within a few months after Ruth got sober, at a meeting in Brooklyn NY, she was given a business card by another AA member. On one side of the card was the Four Absolutes of the Oxford Group (Absolute Honesty, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Love, and Absolute Purity) and on the other side of the card was the following prayer. She recited it daily and shared it when she spoke. It has come to be known as "Ruth's Prayer": Thank You, dear God, for another day, The chance to live in a decent way, To feel again the joy of living and happiness that comes from giving. Thank You for friends who can understand and the peace that flows from Your loving hand. Help me to wake with the morning sun, With the prayer today, "Thy will be done." For with Your help I will find the way. Thank You again, dear God, for AA. - - - - From: "CloydG" cloydg449@sbcglobal.net> (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net) My name is Clyde and I'm an alcoholic, I was there in 95 in San Diego, I was 90 days sober back then, and I was one of those who was screaming to let her finish her story. I have often wondered what she would have said had she been given the time to finish it. If there is a talk that she ever gave that expressed her thoughts on that momentous day, I'd love to hear to hear it! Ruthie will be sorely missed! With love and in service, Clyde G. - - - - From: Corey Franks erb2b@yahoo.com> (erb2b at yahoo.com) HI. . She was also a "Big Hit" at Archives 2000 in Minneapolis and a Few other events I was involved in. She was a Real Treat!! R..I P. Ruthie! _______________________________________ Original message #8437 from "momaria33772" jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com> (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) Ruth O'Neil passed away on Sunday April 22, 2012. She was 97 years old & had just celebrated 68 years of sobriety on April 14 .... In 1995 at the International in San Diego at the longtimers meeting, the crowds went wild begging for additional time allowance after she was "Gonged". Her talks were a great wealth of history. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8454. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First One Hundred - Harlan Spencer - car salesman? or not? From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/7/2012 7:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Understood about the Amos list. Could selling cars have been an interim job, or one from earlier in his life? I know the big book says he was working for a concern he used to own. Salesman can float or move between types of products, generally looking to keep working in the sales field. Gift of gab, outgoing personality etc. At the time of death maybe they just listed the final occupations he held, and held more respectfully? Brian - - - - From: jax760@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 Subject: Re: First One Hundred - Harlan Spencer - car salesman? or not? The Amos List written by Dr Bob shows him as an auto salesman. - - - - From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com> Harlan Spencer, AA#28, who some believe is the model for Jim, the milk and whiskey guy in the big book, is buried in the same cemetery as Dr Bob and Ann Smith: Mount Peace Cemetery, Akron OH. Section 17, Lot 4, Grave 7. His obituary does not show him as a car salesman however. It says "He worked as a salesman here for the Hardware and Supply Co. and later for the Summit Electric Co ..." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8455. . . . . . . . . . . . AA history book on Rogers Burnham From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2012 10:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Leslie B. Cole's book on Rogers Burnham is now available as an e-book Kindle on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Rogers-Burnham-Original-Behind-ebook/dp/B006QSELKU Nook at Barnes and Noble: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/rogers-burnham-leslie-b-cole/1108056695 Also see his webpage: http://www.lescole-aa.com/ A book concerning many basic origins of AA in Vermont, and personal information about Bill Wilson’s brother-in-law, Rogers Burnham, published this last December. It can now be obtained in local bookstores and/or through the Internet. In this book are copies of several records and pictures from the archives at Stepping Stones Foundation in Katonah, NY (Bill and Lois’s only long-term home). There is also data about *Ebby Thacher’s home in Manchester, Vermont; *Rowland Hazard’s home in Glastenbury, Vermont used during the 1930s and what became of it; *a copy of a newspaper account regarding the death of Rowland’s wife, Helen; *stories of the Burnham’s large summer estate in Manchester, Vermont used from the late 1800s until 1936; *pictures and stories of the Burnham cottage on Emerald Lake, North Dorset, Vermont where Bill first met the Burnham's and where he and Lois established their secret engagement; *historical pictures of Bill’s birthplace and his burial cemetery in East Dorset, Vermont. Also, there are pictures of birth and death certificates of many people associated with Bill and Lois, including Bill’s death certificate and temporary winter entombment in Manchester Center, Vermont; a copy of Bertha Bamford’s death certificate (Bill’s significant high school girlfriend at Burr and Burton in Manchester who died unexpectedly ); a picture of the large home of Robert Lincoln (President Lincoln’s son) where the Burnham children played together during summers in Manchester; evidence about Bill’s actual graduation from Burr and Burton high school; and a discussion about how the principles of the Swedenborgian religion impacted the development of the AA 12-Steps program. I’ll be glad to hear from other historians about any of these topics via my personal E-mail, elsietwo@msn.com Les Cole Colorado Springs, CO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8456. . . . . . . . . . . . Wilson to JLK, 1943 - utter simplicity - complete mystery From: tom_hesychast . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/12/2012 8:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Alcoholics Anonymous is "an utter simplicity which encases a complete mystery" ==================== This quotation is cited in Message #6205 from Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) "One of the most important messages in Ernie Kurtz's great history of AA .... Alcoholics Anonymous will live ... so long as it is 'Alcoholics Anonymous': 'an utter simplicity which encases a complete mystery' that no one claims perfectly to understand." ==================== The quotation above is attributed to Bill W. in a footnote (Wilson to JLK, 1943) on p. 157 in "Not God" by E. Kurtz. I purchased this in ebook format (searchable) and it does not provide any additional information on this statement or JLK. A cursory search of additional historical resources has yielded nothing other than reference to this book. Does anyone know: 1) The original source of this statement, time-date-context 2) The identity of JLK IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8457. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet From: rsmith77379 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/11/2012 11:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just keep trying with Archives... You need to remember that their copy might not be any better. Even if it's coming from the "original" the one that they have might be the second or even third 'carbon copy' from Ruth Hock's original typing. _________________________________ Original message: Can anyone assist me with this? I have tried e-mailing the archives in New York, but have received no response. Any help would be appreciated. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8458. . . . . . . . . . . . 1943 printing of 1940 booklet titled AA From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2012 1:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear AA History Friends, I have scanned a 1943 printing of the original 29-page 1940 booklet titled AA and have made it into a PDF file. This is perhaps the first pamphlet for the general public published by the Alcoholic Foundation; but I am not sure about that. This PDF is 10 MBs. If interested in said copy, please send request to, Bob S. rstonebraker212@comcast.net (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) In service, Bob S. Archives, District 40, Area 23 Bob Stonebraker 212 SW 18th Street Richmond, IN 47374 (765) 935-0130 Our 4D website: http://www.4dgroups.org IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8459. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Winchester cathedral From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2012 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Laurie Andrews sent us a copy of the picture on the postcard which is sold to AA tourists at Winchester cathedral in England: http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html at the top of the page See original message #8396 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8396 Laurie Andrews in England reported "Winchester cathedral .... sells postcards of the Hampshire Grenadier tombstone and during the annual convention at Winchester there is a pilgrimage to the grave and people gather round it and recite the Serenity prayer." Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8460. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet From: Charles . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/21/2012 10:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group, I am a little confused and hope someone can set me straight. I have images of the covers of 2 pamphlet produced by New York titled simply "A.A." One clearly says it was printed by Works Publishing. This would be the 1943 version. The other is a very low resolution photo and one can barely make out that it was published by the Alcoholic Foundation. Not having access to an area archives any longer, my question would be is the pamphlet produced by the Alcoholic Foundation actually reprints of Larry J.'s articles or did it have the same contents as the 1943 version. Also does anyone know the copyright date of the Alcoholic Foundation version? Thanks for your help Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8461. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2012 1:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Charles, I have an AF (PO Box 459) copyright 1943 pamphlet in front of me, simply titled "A.A." with the same typeface used in the AF (PO Box 658) copyright June 1940 "A.A." The 1943 pamphlet (29 pages) has multiple topics beginning with an 'overview' and address to write to; 'Am I an Alcoholic?' 'The Doctor's Nightmare' 'The European Drinker' 'Women Suffer Too' 'Bill's Story' and "Medicine, Religion, and Alcoholics Anonymous' 'The Twelve Steps (with some Spiritual Experience appendix text)' 'Our Friends Say' and Dr. Fosdick's 'Book Review.' The 1940 pamphlet (33 pages) has the reprinted (Larry J.) Houston Press articles (x6), 'The Twelve Steps' and Dr. Silkworth's 'To the Doctor.' These are in my possession to de-acidify, scan, and encapsulate before returning them for placement in the Area 20 Northern Illinois Area Archives. I'll be happy to send you the pdf files when they're complete. Rick, Illinois From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 9:48 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet Hello Group, I am a little confused and hope someone can set me straight. I have images of the covers of 2 pamphlet produced by New York titled simply "A.A." One clearly says it was printed by Works Publishing. This would be the 1943 version. The other is a very low resolution photo and one can barely make out that it was published by the Alcoholic Foundation. Not having access to an area archives any longer, my question would be is the pamphlet produced by the Alcoholic Foundation actually reprints of Larry J.'s articles or did it have the same contents as the 1943 version. Also does anyone know the copyright date of the Alcoholic Foundation version? Thanks for your help Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8462. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Paul O. From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2012 8:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was Dr. Paul's medical practice a specialty or general? Where did he go to medical school? Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8463. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Winchester - postcard - Hampshire Grenadier tombstone From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2012 4:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Laurie Andrews and Brian Koch - - - - From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) And not just to AA tourists; the postcard are on sale to the public in the cathedral shop, which also takes orders. Laurie Andrews - - - - From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com) I was blessed enough to be given one of these postcards by a very quiet, but venerated member of our AA community a few years back. He passed about two years ago, but I will always remember his gift to me. Blessings, Brian - - - - From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 Subject: Re: Winchester cathedral Laurie Andrews sent us a copy of the picture on the postcard which is sold to AA tourists at Winchester cathedral in England: http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html at the top of the page See original message #8396 Laurie Andrews in England reported "Winchester cathedral .... sells postcards of the Hampshire Grenadier tombstone and during the annual convention at Winchester there is a pilgrimage to the grave and people gather round it and recite the Serenity prayer." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8464. . . . . . . . . . . . New Bill W Movie From: kochbrian2249 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2012 7:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Would love to hear from those that were able to get to the premier weekend of this film. I was lucky enough to have a fellow recovery wife and Maplewood NJ is not that far away from home, so we were able to attend on Sunday. We were enthralled by the historical information and the way it was presented. Accurate, consise, and no punches pulled, while at the same time being compassionate to our founder. Poigniant interviews with historians and Helen Wynn's son, Shep III. Shep even broke down slightly when he talked about his mother, and his own, relationship with Bill.Readings from Lois and Nell's diaries, as well as audio tapes of Bill and Nell, among others. The re-enactments were somewhat stilted but overall well worth the trip and watch. As an aside, We were able to visit the grave of Douglass Delanoy, AA #22, who is interred at Princeton Cemetery in Princeton NJ. Lovely cemetery located adjacent to the college, also the burial site of Grover Cleveland. Blessings Friends, Brian IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8465. . . . . . . . . . . . Kenneth E. Hart, A Spiritual Interpretation of the 12-Steps of AA From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2012 7:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does someone have a .pdf of "A Spiritual Interpretation of the 12-Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous: From Resentment to Forgiveness to Love," Kenneth E. Hart, Journal of Ministry in Addiction & Recovery, Vol. 6(2) 1999? For reasons that escape, I've received pp. 25-31, which is incomplete, and probably means I only got from Resentment to Forgiveness, never having quite made it all the way to Love, which seems like an utter travesty. Now if I don't get there quick, I may never recover my long lost sense of humor (reads "sanity") however droll it might have been to begin with. Thank God it's kinda like Dippity Doo: A little dab will do ya! Best, Paul If need be, 913/706-PAUL weekday mornings or afternoons. Weekend OK to. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8466. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: New Bill W Movie From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2012 11:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Would appreciate more information on this NEW film on the life of Bill W. Is there a link to such information available? Sherry C. H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8467. . . . . . . . . . . . Seeking information about an early AA named Jack G. From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2012 12:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings, I recently obtained a transcript of testimony given by Jack Gardner on May 19, 1958 to the California legislature, Subcommittee on Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs. Jack is a member of AA who got sober around 1947 and was active in institional work; similiar to Jack Prohs, another AA member who was involved with institutional service work and helping support Narcotics Anonymous. The testimony begins: ============================================== "I am Jack Gardner. I am here as a layman to speak about the Narcotics Anonymous group, not as a member of it, but as one of the originators in this area, of the program. I want to say right here that since I have been here, I am the first layman and so I am going to have to speak from factual experience rather than from intellectual knowledge on this problem of narcotic addiction. Let me preface these remarks by saying that I am also an alcoholic and have been a member of Alcoholics Anonymous consistently and continually for 11 years. I have been very active in the Institutional Committee whose prime object is to carry the message of AA and the rehabilitating factor into hospitals and prisons." ============================================== I'm looking for any information about this gentleman. Also, feel free to contact me at my email address below if you would like to read the entire transcript. Appreciatively, Chris B., Raleigh, NC E-MAIL ADDRESS: cbudnick@nc.rr.com> (cbudnick@nc.rr.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8468. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. -- what medical school From: Brian Waterman . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2012 1:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Brian Waterman, Charles Knapp, and Glenn Chesnut - - - - From: "Brian Waterman" brian@bedrugfree.net> (brian at bedrugfree.net) I do not know where he went to school, but he has mentioned in his talks his specialty was internal medicine. - - - - From: Charles Knapp cpknapp@yahoo.com> (cpknapp at yahoo.com) Dr Paul Hubert Ohliger was born in Canton Ohio and got his medical degree around 1947 from Ohio State. I want to say he became a pharmacist. I know he worked at the VA hospital in L.A. sometime in the 1950's. Later in life he either started a treatment center in Laguna Beach, California or was the head of the facility by the name of Care Manor. Hope this helps Charles from Wisconsin - - - - From: Glenn Chesnut, Moderator http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm Dr. Paul Ohliger, M.D. "Paul had begun to drink when in pharmacy school to help him sleep. He went through pharmacy school, graduate school, medical school, internship, residency and specialty training and, finally went into practice. All the time his drinking kept increasing. Soon he began taking drugs to pep him up and tranquilizers to level off." http://www.geni.com/people/Paul-Ohliger/6000000002992618038 Paul Hubert Ohliger (1918 - 2000) Place of Burial: Franklin, Ohio Birthdate: November 3, 1918 Birthplace: Canton, Stark, Ohio, USA Death: Died May 19, 2000 in Mission Viejo, Orange, California, USA wife: Maxine Ganslein http://california-physicians-surgeons.findthebest.com/l/94210/Paul-H-Ohliger -M-d Paul H Ohliger, M.D. in Laguna Niguel, California Address: 31352 Flying Cloud Dr., Laguna Niguel, California 92677 Dr. Ohliger graduated from Ohio State University College of Medicine in 1947. After graduating from medical school, Dr. Ohliger completed Not Identified of post-graduate training. Dr. Ohliger was issued California medical license CFE 11893 in February 23, 1949 - - - - Original message #8462 From: Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Was Dr. Paul's medical practice a specialty or general? Where did he go to medical school? Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8469. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New Bill W Movie From: john wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2012 1:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is this movie available? How much and where would one order from? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8470. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New Bill W Movie From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2012 3:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See message #8274 from: bill@athenararebooks.com (bill at athenararebooks.com ) Wed Mar 14, 2012 The website for the new documentary on the life of Bill Wilson produced by Page 124 Productions: http://www.page124.com/ The creative team has not yet announced any definite plans for the distribution of this film, but the DVD will be available June 10th. You can let them know that you want a copy when it's available if you go to http://www.page124.com/dvd/> (www.page124.com/dvd/) More information about the documentary (along with a look at the TRAILER) can also be found at http://www.billw.com/> (www.billw.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8471. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New Bill W Movie From: bill@athenararebooks.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2012 11:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Complete details on currently scheduled showings of the movie (more being added all the time) along with a trailer can be found at http://www.billw.com> (www.billw.com) Old Bill =============================== From: Jeff Bruce aliasjb@gmail.com> (aliasjb at gmail.com) LINKS TO THE WEB PAGE: http://www.page124.com/ ABOUT THE FILM: http://www.page124.com/about/ TO SEE THE TRAILER: http://tinyurl.com/cfmnw68 =============================== ALSO SENT IN BY: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com> Alan R taurusnj63@yahoo.com> Jesper kidblast10@yahoo.dk> trysh travis trysh.travis@gmail.com> IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8472. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New Bill W Movie From: Dan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2012 7:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Dan and rsmith - - - - From: Dan danno1002@hotmail.com> (danno1002 at hotmail.com) A radio interview with Kevin and Dan discussing the film can be heard at: http://www.wksu.org/news/story/31179> (www.wksu.org/news/story/31179) - - - - From: "rsmith77379" kk500@comcast.net> Their website is at: http://www.page124.com/ Other than signing me up for their newsletter, I've been unable to get any response out of them. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8473. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet From: rsmith77379 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2012 12:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Houston Intergroup has one of the pamphlets, plus I just received from AAWS Archives a pdf copy. If anyone would like a copy of the 1940 pamphlet, please drop me a line at intergroup@aahouston.org (intergroup at aahouston.org) and I'll email it back to you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8474. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New Bill W Movie From: Alan R . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2012 10:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Alan R. and Shakey Mike - - - - From: Alan R taurusnj63@yahoo.com (taurusnj63 at yahoo.com) I saw it in Maplewood on Sunday as well. It was titled Bill W, so it was specifically Bill's story, not AA's Story or Dr. Bob's story. It was great seeing the home movies. I agree with Brian's assessment, it was accurate and concise, warts and all, I thought it really humanized Bill. I did have a pet peeve with the narrator repeatedly referring to Bill as the "founder", not the co-founder of the fellowship. I looked up the NY Times obituary of Bill, the obit referred to Bill as the "co-founder", so I don't know where the filmmaker was getting his info from. But aside from that little thing, I recommend it highly. I did enjoy the AA members' mini-qualifications (told in shadows), their recovery is part of Bill's legacy. Alan R. - - - - From: Michael Gwirtz Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) My sponsor sent the following e-mail to me yesterday about the movie. I think what he mentions allows even the WW's and those that are Wilson bashers to pause and reflect on what a wonderful gift thatGod gave to us through the early members Bill, Doc, Hank, Fitz etc. Thank God for our gift Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz P.S. remember the NAAAW in Florida this year. Over the decades I hope that I have evolved, grown, mellowed and matured. There are times when I know it is more like devolved than evolved but after all, being human comes with its own set of pitfalls and eureka moments. I recently went to a showing of the new feature length documentary about Bill W. put out by Page 124 Productions. As I sat in the packed house I once again fell in love with the history of Alcoholics Anonymous. This was not a theatrical production despite the use of actors in some of the scenes. For me, the movie was a real portrayal of Bill as co-founder, man and alcoholic with everything each of those parts of his life entailed. Of course, if the film could tell the "rest of the story" as radio broadcaster Paul Harvey was famous for doing this movie would be at least 27 hours long and it would lose its impact and beauty. Yes, I did say impact and beauty. The way this documentary was presented was impactful and between the new photographs, use of Bill's actual voice and words and fantastic musical score it was indeed beautiful. I liked everything about the movie and probably would have enjoyed a few more hours of viewing pleasure but I understand that there are plans for adding additional footage into the DVD release. Parts of the film reminded me of so many negative remarks I've heard over the years about Bill - some of them came from me. I humbly apologize for those insensitive and callous remarks, made without the understanding, knowledge and hopefully, insight I believe I have today. People talk about Bill's use of LSD without taking that use into historical context. When Bill was taking LSD, that compound was not looked upon as it is today or in the past few decades. It was looked upon at that time as a potential wonder drug which held promise to help thousands of people suffering from alcoholism, depression and other maladies. Bill took LSD under the care of physicians and those trained in the healing arts for specific medical purposes and not to get high. I'm sure these same naysayers would also talk about someone using heroin in the late 1800's when at that time when the Bayer Company introduced heroin, it was done so as a non-addictive substitute for morphine. These same people would have problems in 1885 when Cocaine Toothache Drops with "Instantaneous Cure!" was advertised for use by children. It is all about historical context. The fact that Bill had participated in medically approved experiments with LSD given historical context is really not that important. The other piece I see people talk about is Bill's participation in spiritualism. Once again, historical context proves that much of society was also participating in spiritualist practices such as seances and use of Ouija Boards. That was the "IN" thing of that period. Who knows, maybe in 50 or 100 years, people looking back at us might question our addiction with "Tweeting" or social networking. It was just what people did back then - historical context. Nothing evil intended. Another of the topics always bandied about is talk of Bill's asking for a drink on his death bed. None of these people who bring that up as something horrific ever take into account Bill's oxygen starved brain, ravages of Emphysema and other medical factors which came into play during those last painful days of Bill's life. Bill's relationships with women other than Lois is another big topic of negativity. I am not going to address any rumors or undocumented relationships but I will touch on Bill's relationship with Helen W. Everyone knows Bill had a long history of severe depression. Lois also had very little patience dealing with Bill's periods of depression. Helen on the other hand often nurtured Bill back to health from these periods lost in the abyss. There were times when Helen found Bill at the deepest part of his pain and who knows what would have happened if she hadn't saved him from those depths he couldn't pull himself out of? Where would AA be if Bill W., Co-Founder had completed suicide or returned to drinking? Where would AA be if it weren't for Helen? I thank God for Bill's relationship with Helen because I may not be alive today if that relationship didn't exist. People say they owe their life to Bill and given how Helen probably saved Bill's life on several occasions, they may also owe their lives to her as well. In all reality, I don't believe any of the negativity has a whole lot to do with LSD or seances or Bill's reported relationships. I think these people just don't like AA because of some unfounded hatred of God and rather than just be honest, they pick on all this other stuff, taken out of historical context and twisted just to lash out at their God hatred. AA isn't about a God of religion or sect or denomination. AA says throughout its literature it is about finding a God of your understanding. A Power greater than yourself of your own conception. If really questioned, many of these anti-AA people aren't really anti-AA. They are anti-religion. They just don't want to understand that AA isn't about religion or a God defined by religion. Next time if your child has a tooth ache, think that if this was 1885 you might be giving them Cocaine Toothache Drops. Think about what people did back in the 1940's as their "social networking" the next time you "Tweet" or update your Facebook status. Think about where you would be if Helen had not helped bring Bill back from teetering on the edge of the abyss and wasn't there and he had gotten drunk or completed suicide? Even the Big Book says we are not saints. Bill certainly was not a saint. I certainly am not a saint. Are you? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8475. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet From: jax760 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2012 6:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have just come across a July 1942 pamphlet identical to the 1940 pamphlet layout i.e 33 pages, the 6 articles, 12 steps and Silkworth's july 1939 article in the Journal-Lancet. Also came across a piece called "Introduction to AA" same typeface as previously mentioned pamphlets. Looks like 12 questions such as" IX. Is AA a religious group or movement? "If admitting that we ourselves nor any human relationship or agance have been able to help us so far as the drinking problem is concerned, and that we are desperately in need of help from somewhere, and are willing to accept it, if it can be found-if that is religion-the answer is yes. A.A. has no dogma, no creed, no ritual. It does not intrude into a member's conception of the Spiritual. However, we believe that an appeal for help to one's own interpretation of a Higher Power and the acceptance of that help is the indespensable factor in working toward a satisfactory adjustment to life and its problems." anyone ever see this piece before or anything like it? I have reason to believe this is one of those "can openers" produced by The New Jersey Group of AA (AA Gorup # 4) around the time these other early AA pamphlets were produced i.e 1940 - 1943 as another phamphlet question mentions 150 AA groups in existence throughout the country. My bet would be 1943/44? John B. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricktompkins" wrote: > > Hi Charles, > > I have an AF (PO Box 459) copyright 1943 pamphlet in front of me, simply > titled "A.A." with the same typeface used in the AF (PO Box 658) copyright > June 1940 "A.A." > > The 1943 pamphlet (29 pages) has multiple topics beginning with an > 'overview' and address to write to; 'Am I an Alcoholic?' 'The Doctor's > Nightmare' 'The European Drinker' 'Women Suffer Too' 'Bill's Story' and > "Medicine, Religion, and Alcoholics Anonymous' 'The Twelve Steps (with some > Spiritual Experience appendix text)' 'Our Friends Say' and Dr. Fosdick's > 'Book Review.' > > The 1940 pamphlet (33 pages) has the reprinted (Larry J.) Houston Press > articles (x6), 'The Twelve Steps' and Dr. Silkworth's 'To the Doctor.' > > These are in my possession to de-acidify, scan, and encapsulate before > returning them for placement in the Area 20 Northern Illinois Area Archives. > > I'll be happy to send you the pdf files when they're complete. > > Rick, Illinois > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 9:48 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA > pamphlet > > Hello Group, > I am a little confused and hope someone can set me straight. I have > images of the covers of 2 pamphlet produced by New York titled simply > "A.A." One clearly says it was printed by Works Publishing. > This would be the 1943 version. The other is a very low resolution > photo and one can barely make out that it was published by the Alcoholic > Foundation. Not having access to an area archives any longer, my > question would be is the pamphlet produced by the Alcoholic Foundation > actually reprints of Larry J.'s articles or did it have the same > contents as the 1943 version. Also does anyone know the copyright date > of the Alcoholic Foundation version? > Thanks for your help > Charles from Wisconsin > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8476. . . . . . . . . . . . Compulsory attendance at AA/NA meetings in the U.K. From: Laurie Andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2012 11:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Guardian has carried articles critical of the coalition government's policy of forcing problem drinkers/addicts to attend AA/NA meetings or lose their benefits. The first is by John Sutherland: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/24/iain-duncan-smith-alcoho lic-\ plan [58] and the other is a follow-up in today's paper by Tanya Gold. ____________________________________________ G.C. note -- the Guardian is the third largest British national daily newspaper. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8477. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2012 2:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks for the heads up. Hard to say how exactly much overlap w/o looking at both? This below may? contain all the relevant text in the first; from The Harvard Psychedelic Club, pp. 66-68: ~~~ Humphrey Osmond was also the author of a much-discussed study in the 1950s that reported some success in treating alcoholics with LSD. Osmond initially thought the drug produced symptoms similar to delirium tremens. Producing a terrifying artificial delirium might frighten an alcoholic into change. Between 1954 and 1960, Osmond and his colleagues treated some two thousand alcoholics under carefully controlled conditions and came to see that it was insight, not terror that seemed to help these drunks reform. It was this research that would briefly bring Bill Wilson, a cofounder of Alcoholics Anonymous, into the early psychedelic scene. Wilson was—like Huston Smith—a big fan of Gerald Heard. "Bill W.," as he is known to his AA minions, was a hard-drinking businessman who got sober in the 1930s with the help of an evangelical Christian movement known as the Oxford Group. He was the primary author of the so-called Big Book, the classic self-help volume that outlines AA's twelve-step program for sober living and spiritual recovery. Wilson was clearly influenced by the evangelical movement, but he was also a somewhat eclectic spiritual seeker; this inclination can be seen in the twelve-step programs emphasis on alcoholics turning to a self-defined "higher power," to God "as we understood Him." In August 1956, one year after Wilson turned over the AA leadership to an elected board of directors, Heard guided Wilson on an LSD trip that would have a profound impact on the world's best-known recovering alcoholic. Wilson took what was probably his first LSD trip at the Los Angeles Veterans Administration Hospital on August 29, 1956. According to notes taken by Heard, the founder of AA felt "an enormous enlargement and his insights damn seriously." Shortly after that acid trip, Huston Smith accompanied Heard on a trip to Kansas City and spent two hours in a hotel room listening to Wilson and Heard talk about the acid trip. Wilson was blown away by the drug and said the experience was a dead ringer for the famous night in the 1930s when he fell down on his knees and had an epiphany about founding his twelve-step program. One of the main tenets of the group's recovery program is that alcoholics and other drug addicts must go through some kind of spiritual awakening to overcome their addiction. Wilson thought an LSD trip could be an effective tool for A A members who had little interest—or negative feelings—about religion and spirituality. The founder of Alcoholics Anonymous had several LSD sessions in the mid-1950s, including one with researchers working with Dr. Sidney Cohen at UCLA. Wilson had a group drug session with Tom Powers, a close Wilson associate who handled public relations for AA. Cohen had proposed a low-dose session with the two AA leaders, but he made the mistake of giving Wilson another option. "Well, there are more pills available should you want them," Cohen said. "Don't ever tell that to a drunk," said Wilson, who insisted on taking a double dose. Bill Wilson would have another cameo appearance in the psychedelic story. In a letter to Timothy Leary dated July 17, 1961, Wilson wrote that Huxley had "referred enthusiastically to your work." Wilson goes on to write that "though LSD and some kindred alkaloids have had an amazingly bad press, there seems no doubt of their immense and growing value." The AA founder also hints that he knew of Leary's own problems with alcohol, adding that Tim might "find some interest in Alcoholics Anonymous—its principles and mechanism." It was Humphrey Osmond's research that originally inspired Wilson to try LSD. "Early on I told Bill this was good news," Osmond said, "but he was far from pleased with the idea of alcoholics being assailed by some strange chemical. But later on Bill got extremely interested. He likened his experience to his original AA vision of seeing this chain of drunks around the world. This caused quite a scandal in Alcoholics Anonymous. They became very ambivalent about their great founder, even though they wouldn't have existed if he hadn't had an adventurous kind of mind." ~~~ Also, the following three pages seem on topic; a quick search of the AAHL board didn't yield any of the same results - I could be mistaken and apologies if it is redundant - comes from "A Tribute to Humphry Osmond M.D. 1917-2004" (pdf) by Abraham Hoffer located at http://orthomolecular.org/history/humphry.pdf ~~~ Bill W. – Cofounder Alcoholics Anonymous I first met Bill W. cofounder Alcoholics Anonymous at the New York meeting. He was sitting on my right and Humphry was on his right. Humphry and I were experimenting with leukoadrenochrome. This is a non-toxic reduced derivative of adrenochrome which Dr. R. Heacock made in our laboratory. We wanted to study its properties. I can not remember our reasoning but I am fairly certain we felt it was not an hallucinogen. We made 3-milligram sublingual tablets. We tested it on a number of friends and colleagues and it either did nothing or had remarkable anti anxiety properties. We even interested one of the major drug companies who made a batch using our formula and we ran a long series of tests. But they eventually would not take it on because its action was not predictable. Drug companies like drugs that always do something even if it is bad and undesirable for then they are sure it has activity. Our research is described in our book the Hallucinogens. As we were sitting listening to the proceedings Bill W. remarked to Humphry that he was very tense and we could see that he was not comfortable. Humphry promptly gave Bill one of these 3-milligram tablets. Bill placed it under his tongue and about 20 minutes later he turned to Humphrey and said now I know what you are talking about when you say you are relaxed. It had a remarkable effect on him. We left him a substantial supply and he used it for several months but eventually we ran out and decided that we could not pursue it any further. Bill was once more in trouble with his moods. By then the three of us had spent many hours talking about our research, about Alcoholic Anonymous, about our use of LSD for treating alcoholics and our use of niacin, which was beneficial for many of the patients. Bill was very impressed and he began to take niacin 1 gram after each meal. Two weeks later he was free of his chronic tension and depression. He remained on this vitamin until he died. He was so enthusiastic that he began to hand it out to his friends in AA who also suffered many symptoms of mood disorder even though they were not drinking. One evening when I was visiting Bill at his hotel he suddenly produced thirty charts and he said that he wanted to show me the results of his research. I was surprised and pleaded. He told me that he had given the niacin to 30 members of AA. After one month ten were well. After two months another ten were well but the last ten had not responded. This was remarkably like the data I had been seeing. Bill W. outlined the value of our work with niacin as a treatment to members of the International Doctors in AA and that spread the idea throughout AA. Bill W. had to do this outside of his association with the International Board because they were violently Abraham Hoffer – Humphry Osmond In Memoriam page 13/24 opposed to Bill talking about vitamins.15 One of the doctors on the board was violently opposed to the idea that niacin could be helpful but their main concern was that Bill was not a doctor. Bill wrote two pamphlets called A Communication to AA Physicians, the first one in 1965 (green cover). It had a limited circulation and was followed by the second one in 1968 (yellow cover) and the last one (white cover) by Drs. Edwin Boyle Jr., David Hawkins and Russell F. Smith. Dr. E. Boyle was one of the first American physicians, then working at NIH, who helped plan the Coronary Drug Study which established niacin as the gold standard for lowering cholesterol levels. David Hawkins and Linus Pauling coauthored the classical book Orthomolecular Psychiatry. The first clinical meeting on orthomolecular psychiatry was held in Long Island at Brunswick Hospital where he was in charge of the department of psychiatry. Russell Smith was clinical director of a large hospital in Detroit, which specialized in treating alcoholics. In the introduction they wrote "Bill's first inspiration had a profound impact throughout the world as evidenced not only by the growth of AA itself and its effect on the field of alcoholism, but also its impact on the field on mental health in general, with AA type group therapy having become the foremost successful treatment modality. Bill and those close to him felt that he had a second inspiration when he recognized the importance of certain vitamins in returning the brain of some alcoholic to normal functioning. It was Bill who saw the far reaching implications of this discovery and brought it into awareness. This again, is already having an impact on the entire field of mental health. The scientific importance of this discovery was recognized by the brilliant Nobel Prize winning Professor Linus Pauling, who termed this new development Orthomolecular Psychiatry". Because of Bill's interest many AA doctors became powerful advocates of orthomolecular medicine. The AA International Headquarters rejected Bill's ideas because not being a doctor he had no right to talk about vitamins. To help him the Huxley Institute of Biosocial Research gave him a small grant to pay for secretarial and other expenses. The AA doctors decided to test our claims and without any demand for double blind controlled studies they created a committee. Each member of the committee tried niacin on themselves and the result was so beneficial they approved its use. Bill W. with his enormous influence was a major player in the development of orthomolecular medicine. He even resurrected the name Vitamin B3 to replace niacin and niacinamide. While preparing his material for distribution he asked us whether there was another name for it. He did not think that using the current names would help. I remembered that in 1937 when I took my first class in biochemistry professor Roger Manning had discussed the vitamins in the order in which they had been discovered. The first was vitamin A, then vitamin B. But it turned out that vitamin B consisted of a number of vitamins. The first was thiamin, the second riboflavin and next in line was niacin, which was number three. I suggested he call it vitamin B3. This is now the accepted common term. Bill Humphry and I were involved in an unusual series of events. Humphry was the Director of the Bureau of Research in Neurology and Psychiatry, New Jersey Neuropsychiatric Institute, Princeton, New Jersey and lived in one of the buildings while Jane remained in England. Whenever I went east I would slip down to Princeton and visit with Humphry for a few days. One evening we met with Bill at his hotel. I had invited the medical director of a company to come as well. This physician had asked me to be a consultant on a product for which they had the patents called NAD. It was specially formulated so that it was not digested and destroyed in the stomach. The company had been exploring it as a treatment for alcoholism and had applied for a patent but the data needed a lot of work. As soon as I learned that such a compound was available I became very interested, not in using it for alcoholics but in using it for treating schizophrenia. I had been dreaming about it for a long time but was never able to obtain any and the pure product taken by mouth was not active. The company agreed to provide me with adequate supplies. The results on our patients were remarkable. It would produce the kind of response in several days that I would expect in several months from vitamin B3. Eventually the company decided that the new patent would be very valuable and decided that I was no longer needed. We terminated our relationship. I sent them my final report and informed them that I would briefly refer to NAD in my talk to be given at the Waldorf Astoria on the mechanism of action of the hallucinogens. I was going to insert one sentence as part of my argument. I told the company. 15 Hartigan F: Bill W.: A biography of alcoholics anonymous cofounder Bill Wilson, St. Martins Press, New York 2000. Abraham Hoffer – Humphry Osmond In Memoriam page 14/24 They wanted me to eliminate that sentence stating that it would be an infringement of their trade secret. They offered to pay me an enormous sum of money if I would keep quiet. After visiting Humphry I went back to New York to prepare for my talk. That morning the company's lawyer called my hotel. He said he was with the Richard Nixon firm and wanted me to come to their office on Wall Street to discuss the matter. Fortunately I called the lawyer for the nascent American Schizophrenia Association instead. He advised me to come to his office, which was across the street from the Richard Nixon firm. My lawyer and the company lawyer debated the issue vigorously for half a day and eventually the company lawyer consulted with the company president who ordered him to withdraw the action. Had I gone to their office I would have been served with a subpoena forbidding me from giving my talk at the hotel. I discovered later that process servers were waiting at each entrance to their building. They really had no grounds for action. My lawyer then advised me to hide until my lecture. He said that the Nixon firm was honorable and would keep their word but there was nothing to prevent the company from seeking another firm and starting again. I immediately called Bill at his hotel and asked him to get me a room. I called Humphry who was coming in that afternoon and asked him to go to my hotel to pick up some things for me and bring it to Bill's hotel room. Humphry though this was great. Then my lawyer escorted me down into some subterranean tunnel with a private door into the subway. Once I mingled with the crowds I was safe. In true spy fashion Humphry watched very carefully to see if he was being followed. He walked around the block, which housed my hotel, the Roger Smith on Lexington Ave, three times before entering. I called John Osmundsen, Humphry's good friend who was senior science editor for the New York Times. I told John that I would be speaking and that there was a chance that I would be served with a subpoena before I could give my lecture. John promised he would be there. I think he was excited by the prospect I might be prevented from talking. John A. Osmundsen was a journalist who had worked at the New York Times, Life and Look Magazines, on Public Broadcasting Television and many other institutions. He was senior science editor for the Times. The next morning I gave my talk. The following day the New York Times carried a full-page story on the first page of the second section describing my findings. That event marks one of the major turning points in orthomolecular psychiatry. For within a few days both Humphry and I were receiving enormous numbers of letters, first from the east coast, then they [came] from places further west and in a few days from the Far East. I received as many as three hundred letters per week and had to hire another secretary to handle the load. Humphry and I kept these letters and later when we were organizing the American Schizophrenia Association we sent an appeals letter to all the people who had written to us. Within a few weeks we received about $70,000. This was a remarkable 6% yield. With this money we were able to establish the American Schizophrenia Association. Bill W. was convinced that niacin should be an essential element of the AA program because it healed the members of their chronic tensions, depression, pain and fatigue. Probably these symptoms were the main reasons why they became alcoholics in the first place. He told Humphry and me about a home in Detroit called Guest House. This was a treatment center for alcoholic Catholic priests. It had been the private home of a very wealthy Detroit resident. We asked Bill whether it would be possible to visit the Guest House. He arranged this and sometime later we and Bill were guests of this lovely home for a couple of days. The priests were all members of AA. One of the priests, a faculty member of Fordham University was delighted to meet us. He had suffered from severe Migraine all his life but soon after he started taking niacin his migraine headaches were gone. He immediately became a convert and began to proselytize niacin even more than Bill W. He was called Father Niacin and they called me Doctor Niacin. I was more closely identified with niacin than Humphry was because I was more closely involved in the clinical trials. I was so well known in Canada that one day a letter arrived addressed to Doctor Niacin. The post office had readdressed it. Guest House was described in the book Fannie Kahan wrote for both of us called "New Hope For Alcoholics", University Books, New York, 1966. Father Niacin later arranged a meeting at Fordham University to discuss the use of niacin in treatment. At that time we had an active schizophrenics anonymous group in Saskatoon. Two of their members came to the meeting and using the usual AA format told the audience about their own recovery from schizophrenia. Abraham Hoffer – Humphry Osmond In Memoriam page 15/24 ~~~ Best, Paul --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "corafinch" wrote: > > The same author covered some of the same ground in an earlier book, The Harvard Psychedelic Club: How Timothy Leary, Ram Dass, Huston Smith and Andrew Weil Killed the Fifties and Ushered in a New Age for America. > > That one is available at good prices from used book sites, and some libraries have it. > > Although the men in the subtitle are the primary focus, Huxley and Heard figure prominently and there is some material on Wilson. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8478. . . . . . . . . . . . New Bill W movie From: Doris . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2012 1:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Well said, Mike. An additional point is that in those times people had intense male/female relationships that were not sexual. Bill clearly had strong sexual instincts (as indicated in the 12 and 12) but it is extremely possible theirs was not a sexual relationship. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8479. . . . . . . . . . . . Where and when? rule about 2 people on a 12 step call From: rickcard47 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/3/2012 9:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Where did AA come up with the idea of 2 people on a 12 step call? I don't see any info in the BB or 12x12, or other books that can be purchased from GSO. I can think of reasons why a single person should not go alone, but can't find any history on the reason for 2 people on a 12 step call. Why not three people? Is there any history on this? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8480. . . . . . . . . . . . comments on Bill W. documentary From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2012 9:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In recognition of Founders' Day this weekend, Points Blog today features the first in a series of comments on the new Bill W. documentary, by AA historian Jay Stinnett of Loving Sober (http://lovingsober.com/). You can find the post at http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/. Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8481. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census From: awuh1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/8/2012 11:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 1940 New York census recently became searchable online and Bill and Lois are there. One quite interesting entry is for Bill's occupation. It lists this as Social Worker. Does anyone have any information about this? For those interested here's the link. Happy hunting, there's alot more to be found. http://interactive.ancestry.com/2442/m-t0627-02656-00872/9632469?backurl=htt p%3a\ %2f%2fsearch.ancestry.com%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3d1940usfedce n%26\ rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d0%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dlois%26gsln% 3dwi\ lson%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x%252c_83004005%257c_83004005_x%252c _F00\ 06AB0%257c_F0006AB0_x%26uidh%3dfo5%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d5%26h%3d9632469&ssrc= [59] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8482. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census From: mike80110 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2012 9:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you, but the link takes you to a page where you need to be a subscriber to ancestry.com. Any chance of just having the census page posted to aahl? Again, thank you for your time with this. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "awuh1" wrote: > > The 1940 New York census recently became searchable online and Bill and Lois are there. One quite interesting entry is for Bill's occupation. It lists this as Social Worker. Does anyone have any information about this? For those interested here's the link. Happy hunting, there's alot more to be found. > > http://interactive.ancestry.com/2442/m-t0627-02656-00872/9632469?backurl=htt p%3a\ %2f%2fsearch.ancestry.com%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3d1940usfedce n%26\ rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d0%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dlois%26gsln% 3dwi\ lson%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x%252c_83004005%257c_83004005_x%252c _F00\ 06AB0%257c_F0006AB0_x%26uidh%3dfo5%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d5%26h%3d9632469&ssrc= [59] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8483. . . . . . . . . . . . AA birthday: 77 years old, 1935-2012 From: jerrys1229@yahoo.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2012 1:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Happy Birthday AA!!!! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8484. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Where and when? rule about 2 people on a 12 step call From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/5/2012 10:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From LaurenceHolbrook and stephenw968 - - - - From: "hdmozart" email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com) I couldn't find any specific recomendation, but this story from Dr. Bob & the Good Oldtimers may have provided some incentive for the idea - pp 246: To give some idea of the dangers involved with women, Oscar W. recalled the first man killed on a Twelfth Step call. "He called on her after the husband had left for work," said Oscar. "The neighbors saw this and told her husband. One night, the husband lay in the weeds outside the house, waiting for the guy, and when the A.A. came along to take the woman to a meeting, the husband blew him in half with a shotgun. This was in upstate New York, and it was said that they named a club after the fellow. It is an idea that seemed to permeate through the 12 step calls described in Dr. Bob & the Good Oldtimers - pp 170, "He'd [Dr. Bob] make Twelfth Step calls with you" - pp 257, "A few days later, Bob went on a Twelfth Step call with Walter C." I doubt the 'double team' idea was followed after the Plain Dealer article - Dorothy S. estimated 500 calls in the first month to be handled by about 13 people (pp 206) I didn't get a chance to search the digital Grapevine. - - - - From: "stephenw968" stephenw968@yahoo.com> (stephenw968 at yahoo.com) I have a handout that says it was "Reprinted with permission AA World Service "Box 459" October-November 1998" called "How do you make an old-fashioned twelfth step call?" It talks about the 1998 Conference Literature Committee considering a pamphlet then in use by Area 25 (Kansas),which was rejected in favor of guidelines developed in a workshop by the Answering Services Committee of the Elmira (New York) Area Intergoup along the lines of GSO's service piece "Suggested Workshop Format." Suggestion 2 reads "Twelfth Step in pairs, with a same-sex member if possible. Twelfth-Step calls can be intense, and there is safety in numbers. Besides, two head are better than one. Be punctual and look your best." This suggests that the practice was in use a long time but never officially codified. I would guess that two is standard because three may be too many and in any case difficult to assemble? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8485. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Little Red Book - - rule about 2 people on a 12 step call From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2012 10:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have two versions of the "Little Red Book" - one is from Martino Publishing, Mansfield Centre, CT 2011 and appears to be a copy of the "Little Red Book published by Coll-Webb, Minneapolis, MN 1951 - these is no mention of "sponsoring a new member" in Step 12 - I have a Hazelden, Center City, MN 1986 appearing to be a copy of the 1957 edition - that edition discusses under the heading "Double Sponsorship" in Step 12: pp 127 "There are many ways of carrying the message besides sponsorship. Some of these activities appear in the following list. "2. Making calls with older members who are sponsoring a new member. pp133 "From the standpoint of preparedness, two members can plan and follow a better course of action than one. Paired up, we lessen the element of danger and provide work for a younger member. The prospect gets two views of AA. Follow up is more complete. "An older member with a successful record of working with alcoholics never sponsors alone. He always calls in a younger person to help him and insists they both read Chapter Seven before making the call, except in emergency cases. Apparently the "Little Red Book" author considers making a 12 step call as "sponsoring a new member" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8486. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: early pamphlets - - rule about 2 people on a 12 step call From: hdmozart . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2012 12:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Several early pamphlets are available here for perusal: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Early%20pamphlets.htm The Washington DC Pamphlet (and others) only say to "Make calls when asked", with no particular directives - Neither Clarence Snyder's 1944 Sponsorship pamphlet nor The Akron Manual (1940) makes any mention of two members on a 12 step call I believe Box 459, Vol. 44 #5 (which would be 1998) makes the following reccomendation: "2. Twelfth Step in pairs, with a same-sex member if possible. Twelfth‑Step calls can be intense, and there is safety in numbers. Besides, two heads are better than one. Be punctual and look your best. I couldn't find any early articles with 12 step call guidelines in digital Grapevine - The earliest mention I could find was in the previously posted 1957 "Little Red Book" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8487. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2012 1:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The link worked with my i phone but not on my p.c. Just enter 1940 and census and you will see the .gov site. http://www.archives.gov/research/census/1940/start-research.html Have fun looking up anyone alive in 1940 if you have an address. YIS, Shakey Mike remember the 16th NAAAW in Cocoa Beach Fl., Oct 4-7 ,2012 still warm in Fla then. http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8488. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob Cremated? From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2012 12:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Friends, I just received a copy of Dr. Bob Smith's obituary, as it appeared in the Akron Beacon, 11/17/1950. It is rich in information, including a brief retelling of the first meeting with Bill, and a little bit about his cancer and how he had been keeping records of his cancer and treatment to aid the study of the disease, typical Dr. Bob. The obituary states "Services will be held Monday at 1 p.m. at St. Paul's Episcopal Church, followed by cremation in Cleveland. Dr. Walter F. Tunks will officiate at the services." Is this information true? Were his ashes then buried at Mount Peace in Akron, or was the plan changed at the last minute? Was the press's information erroneous? Having attended graveside services in Akron, I know at the very least his name is shown on the marker there, a place many make a pilgrimage to on an annual basis. Wondering if anyone has any info. Happy Founders Day to all my fellows. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8489. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. on NPR From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2012 12:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In case people missed it, there was a story on Bill W. and Founders' Day on National Public Radio this morning: http://www.npr.org/2012/06/11/154596691/bill-w-day-celebrates-alcoholics-ano nymo\ us-hero [60] Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8490. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA birthday: 77 years old, 1935-2012 From: Bruce Kennedy . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2012 1:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Actually on June 17th (not June 10th) as discussed on this forum a bunch of times! Bruce K. San Francisco IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8491. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill and Lois - 1940 Census - how could they afford this? From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2012 1:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey, I believe "social worker" would be a cookie cutter label for anyone doing the kind of work Bill was doing in 1940 for AA. The census was taken in April 1940, he had already moved the AA office to Vesey Street in March 1940, so I assume he wasn't working for Hank any more either. I guess "recovering alcoholic" wouldn't look so good on the US Census in 1940. Found it strange that Lois had no occupation listed on the census. But I have a better question. How is Bill affording to live in an apartment in an up scale neighborhood located at 145 W 55th Street New York in April 1940? According to the census he is paying $65 a month (over $1,000.00 in today's money) Those same apartments are going for $2,000 to $4,000 a month today. The census also shows he is the "head" of the household so he wasn't living with some one otherwise he would be listed as a "boarder." I guess he could be living in someone's apartment that they weren't using or fibbed that he was the head of household. Does any one have any info one this piece of information from the1940 census? Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8492. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census From: KenJ . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2012 9:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have posted a copy of the census page in my photobucket ..... The Wilson's are near the bottom of the page. It can be tough to read so here is the information you can glean: They lived at 145 West 55th St. Wm. G Wilson, 44 years old, Born in Vermont, Social Worker, Worked 52 weeks, "0" salary Lois B. Wilson was 49 years old, Born in New York You can download the page from my photobucket: http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr167/phillycaster/1940UnitedStatesFedera lCen\ susforLoisBWilson.jpg [61] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8493. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob Cremated? - yes - ashes at Mount Peace Cemetery From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2012 12:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Replying to myself. After a phone call to Billow Funeral Home, and a check of their records, Dr. Bob was, indeed cremated. His ashes were then sent to Mount Peace Cemetery on 4 Dec 1950. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8494. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill and Lois - 1940 Census - how could they afford this? From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2012 12:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have to double check but I believe that was Morgan Ryan's place. ________________________________ From: Charles Knapp cpknapp@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Bill and Lois - 1940 Census - how could they afford this? How is Bill affording to live in an apartment in an up scale neighborhood located at 145 W 55th Street New York in April 1940? According to the census he is paying $65 a month (over $1,000.00 in today's money) Those same apartments are going for $2,000 to $4,000 a month today. The census also shows he is the "head" of the household so he wasn't living with some one otherwise he would be listed as a "boarder." I guess he could be living in someone's apartment that they weren't using or fibbed that he was the head of household. Does any one have any info one this piece of information from the 1940 census? Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8495. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origins of 4th step column format From: shakey . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2012 2:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In post 2376 and 2682, where Mitchell K observes the similarity between the O.G's Game of "Truth"( I Was a Pagan by V C Kitchen pg89), and alcoholics Anonymous fourth step pg 65 in the Chapter "How It Works" of our basic text "Alcoholics Anonymous ", a reply by Merton M in post 2707 is quite interesting. Merton explains that Hank Parkhurst gave Bill Wilson his completed Game of "Truth." It was explained that it was included in Merton's unfinished manuscript "Black Sheep." The only mention I see says,"Hank's step 1 resembles the present step 2(Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity ) and his step 2 somewhat resembles the present step 4 &5 (Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves & Admitted to God,ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs). Nowhere do I see the written out Game of "Truth" that Hank Parkhurst gave to Bill Wilson, according To Merton M. The written out Game of "Truth" does probably apply to every alcoholic. I list it below for convenience; IN MY OLD LIFE I most liked: Myself. Liquor, tobacco and almost every other stimulant, narcotic and form of self-indulgence. Anything which gave me pleasure, possessions, power, position and applause, or pumped up my self-esteem. To be left largely to myself. My wife -- because of the comforting and complimentary way she treated me. I hated most: Poverty (for myself). Prohibition. Work. People who disapproved or tried to interfere with me. Any betrayal of my inner thoughts or emotions. IN MY NEW LIFE I most like: God. Time alone with God. The fellowship of the living Jesus Christ. The stimulation of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God's guidance. My wife -- because of the things God now enables us to do for each other. Communion with others who are trying to lead the same kind of Christ-centered life and the witnessing to all of what Christ has come to mean to me. I hate most: Sin. Self, because "I" is the middle letter of SIN. Sins that separate me from God. Sins that separate me from people. Anything that falls short of God's plan for me. [This is Hank's pre-Big Book note to Bill. The source is unfinished manuscript "Black Sheep". It was transcribed directly from the original which was in Hank's very distinctive and familiar style.] [Any additons I made are in brackets [].] [start] One of the easiest and most talked about of things among us is a religious experience. I believe that this is incomprehensible to most people. Simple and meaning words to us - but meaningless to most of the people that we are trying to get this over to. " In my mind religious experience - religion - ect. should not be brought in. We are actually irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful - we have learned to be quiet - to be more truthful - to be more honest - to try to be more unselfish - to make other fellows troubles - our troubles - and by following four steps most of us have a religious experience. The fellowship - the unselfishness appeals to us. "I wonder if we are off the track. "A very good merchandising procedure is to find out why people do not buy our products - it is good reasoning to find out WHY - I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing religious experience when actually that is something that follows as a result of 1 - 2 - 3 - 4. "In my mind the question is not particularly the strength of the experience as much as the improvement over what we were. I would ask a man to compare himself as follows after say a month – " #1 - As compared to 2 months ago do you have more of a feeling that there is a power greater than you [?] " #2 - Have you cleaned out more completely with a human being than ever before? " #3 - Have you less bad things behind you than ever before [?] " #4 - Have you been more honest with youself and your fellow man - Have you been more honest with yourself and your fellow man - Have you been more thoughtful of people with whom you are associated - Has your life been cleaner both by thought & action - Have you looked at others less critically and yourself more critically this last 30 days. You will never be perfect but the question is have you been more perfect ?" [stop] [merton] I did not see this listed in the copy of Black Sheep from my sponsor. Does anyone else on AAHL have this in their copy of Black Sheep? Little recognition has been given to Hank for the contributions he has made to the fellowship of AA outside of AAHL and several non- conference approved books. Obviously Bill,Doc Smith and Hank read and discussed the early Oxford Group books and paid attention to the discussions at the house parties. They also took a que from Kitchen on Pg 98 of I was a Pagan where it is written,"It is too late to go back to school,perhaps, but not too late to start in school again under the tutelage of God." "God to-day is teaching me directly through my daily quiet hour in the morning and indirectly through the passages in the Bible that he indicates,through the books He guides me to read,through the group meetings and Schools of life...that one thing needed at the moment to live according to His plan." These early O.G. books are a must read for anyone studying the history of AA, and are recommended by me to the men I sponsor to read to be of maximum service to Him. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa USA --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > > Also reference V. Kitchen's "I Was A Pagan" where the OG Game of Truth was laid out in columns with similar subject content. When you see this format it is extremely similar to the columns in the BB > > Jim Blair wrote: > > In the OG book "For Sinners Only" it was an oral process to get at the root of the problem. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8496. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history book on Rogers Burnham From: Charley Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2012 11:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Les, I have a vision problem and get most of my books in audio. I use Caliber to hear them. Your book will be valuable to me for the original documents, etc shown, but it would be most helpful if i could hear it. Do you know if it will be available for reading with Caliber? On 5/3/2012 7:50 AM, LES COLE wrote: > Leslie B. Cole's book on Rogers Burnham is now available as an e-book > > Kindle on Amazon: > http://www.amazon.com/Rogers-Burnham-Original-Behind-ebook/dp/B006QSELKU > > Nook at Barnes and Noble: > http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/rogers-burnham-leslie-b-cole/1108056695 > > Also see his webpage: http://www.lescole-aa.com/ > > A book concerning many basic origins of AA in Vermont, and personal information about Bill Wilson’s brother-in-law, Rogers Burnham, published this last December. It can now be obtained in local bookstores and/or through the Internet. > > In this book are copies of several records and pictures from the archives at Stepping Stones Foundation in Katonah, NY (Bill and Lois’s only long-term home). > > There is also data about > > *Ebby Thacher’s home in Manchester, Vermont; > > *Rowland Hazard’s home in Glastenbury, Vermont > used during the 1930s and what became of it; > > *a copy of a newspaper account regarding the > death of Rowland’s wife, Helen; > > *stories of the Burnham’s large summer estate > in Manchester, Vermont used from the late 1800s > until 1936; > > *pictures and stories of the Burnham cottage on > Emerald Lake, North Dorset, Vermont where Bill > first met the Burnham's and where he and Lois > established their secret engagement; > > *historical pictures of Bill’s birthplace and > his burial cemetery in East Dorset, Vermont. > > Also, there are pictures of birth and death certificates of many people associated with Bill and Lois, including Bill’s death certificate and temporary winter entombment in Manchester Center, Vermont; a copy of Bertha Bamford’s death certificate (Bill’s significant high school girlfriend at Burr and Burton in Manchester who died unexpectedly ); a picture of the large home of Robert Lincoln (President Lincoln’s son) where the Burnham children played together during summers in Manchester; evidence about Bill’s actual graduation from Burr and Burton high school; and a discussion about how the principles of the Swedenborgian religion impacted the development of the AA 12-Steps program. > > I’ll be glad to hear from other historians about any of these topics via my personal E-mail, elsietwo@msn.com > > Les Cole > Colorado Springs, CO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8497. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Compulsory attendance at AA/NA meetings in the U.K. From: Charley Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2012 11:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please collect the UK figures and write a letter to the Guardian showing how much addictions cost your country and how much money it would save if some of these people 'get it' and continue on the road to sobriety. I had a delightful lunch yesterday with Judge Leon Emerson, retired Superior Court of California. Leon is an old friend and great supporter of AA and addictions treatment, etc. He described for a friend and me how the court card was invented by him and an alkie named Bud McDonald, deceased. I had heard the story before many times, but Leon also opened up about his WWII experiences on a fleet tug in the Pacific. He is very lucky to have survived a kamikaze attack on his ship. I did not have my tape recorder, so I missed the war story, but I have the court card genesis story on tape, with Bud MC Donald, from a previous meeting with both of them. On 5/31/2012 8:52 AM, Laurie Andrews wrote: > > The Guardian has carried articles critical of the coalition > government's policy of forcing problem drinkers/addicts to attend > AA/NA meetings or lose their benefits. The first is by John Sutherland: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/24/iain-duncan-smith-alcoho lic-\ plan [58] > > and the other is a follow-up in today's paper by Tanya Gold. > > G.C. note -- the Guardian is the third largest British > national daily newspaper. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8498. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origins of 4th step column format From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2012 6:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hank went back to drinking and it seems that problems with at least one woman and finances was involved. So laying out the outline for the first version of the big book was no more an impediment to drinking than resolving not to drink. Setting rules for each other might help for a while but sooner or later we are going to think, and alcohol will be there as an option for us again. As Bill later said, "It seems the landscape was littered with fallen forms". One of those fallen forms was Hank. We should be thankful for those who criticized the big book and got it a little more acceptable at the time to others. - - - - In a message dated 6/15/2012 6:22:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, shakey1aa@yahoo.com writes: In post 2376 and 2682, where Mitchell K observes the similarity between the O.G's Game of "Truth"( I Was a Pagan by V C Kitchen pg89), and alcoholics Anonymous fourth step pg 65 in the Chapter "How It Works" of our basic text "Alcoholics Anonymous ", a reply by Merton M in post 2707 is quite interesting. Merton explains that Hank Parkhurst gave Bill Wilson his completed Game of "Truth." It was explained that it was included in Merton's unfinished manuscript "Black Sheep." The only mention I see says, "Hank's step 1 resembles the present step 2(Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity ) and his step 2 somewhat resembles the present step 4 &5 (Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves & Admitted to God,ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs). Nowhere do I see the written out Game of "Truth" that Hank Parkhurst gave to Bill Wilson, according To Merton M. The written out Game of "Truth" does probably apply to every alcoholic. I list it below for convenience; IN MY OLD LIFE I most liked: Myself. Liquor, tobacco and almost every other stimulant, narcotic and form of self-indulgence. Anything which gave me pleasure, possessions, power, position and applause, or pumped up my self-esteem. To be left largely to myself. My wife -- because of the comforting and complimentary way she treated me. I hated most: Poverty (for myself). Prohibition. Work. People who disapproved or tried to interfere with me. Any betrayal of my inner thoughts or emotions. IN MY NEW LIFE I most like: God. Time alone with God. The fellowship of the living Jesus Christ. The stimulation of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God's guidance. My wife -- because of the things God now enables us to do for each other. Communion with others who are trying to lead the same kind of Christ-centered life and the witnessing to all of what Christ has come to mean to me. I hate most: Sin. Self, because "I" is the middle letter of SIN. Sins that separate me from God. Sins that separate me from people. Anything that falls short of God's plan for me. [This is Hank's pre-Big Book note to Bill. The source is unfinished manuscript "Black Sheep". It was transcribed directly from the original which was in Hank's very distinctive and familiar style.] [Any additons I made are in brackets [].] [start] One of the easiest and most talked about of things among us is a religious experience. I believe that this is incomprehensible to most people. Simple and meaning words to us - but meaningless to most of the people that we are trying to get this over to. " In my mind religious experience - religion - ect. should not be brought in. We are actually irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful - we have learned to be quiet - to be more truthful - to be more honest - to try to be more unselfish - to make other fellows troubles - our troubles - and by following four steps most of us have a religious experience. The fellowship - the unselfishness appeals to us. "I wonder if we are off the track. "A very good merchandising procedure is to find out why people do not buy our products - it is good reasoning to find out WHY - I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing religious experience when actually that is something that follows as a result of 1 - 2 - 3 - 4. "In my mind the question is not particularly the strength of the experience as much as the improvement over what we were. I would ask a man to compare himself as follows after say a month – " #1 - As compared to 2 months ago do you have more of a feeling that there is a power greater than you [?] " #2 - Have you cleaned out more completely with a human being than ever before? " #3 - Have you less bad things behind you than ever before [?] " #4 - Have you been more honest with youself and your fellow man - Have you been more honest with yourself and your fellow man - Have you been more thoughtful of people with whom you are associated - Has your life been cleaner both by thought & action - Have you looked at others less critically and yourself more critically this last 30 days. You will never be perfect but the question is have you been more perfect ?" [stop] [merton] I did not see this listed in the copy of Black Sheep from my sponsor. Does anyone else on AAHL have this in their copy of Black Sheep? Little recognition has been given to Hank for the contributions he has made to the fellowship of AA outside of AAHL and several non- conference approved books. Obviously Bill,Doc Smith and Hank read and discussed the early Oxford Group books and paid attention to the discussions at the house parties. They also took a cue from Kitchen on Pg 98 of I was a Pagan where it is written,"It is too late to go back to school,perhaps, but not too late to start in school again under the tutelage of God." "God to-day is teaching me directly through my daily quiet hour in the morning and indirectly through the passages in the Bible that he indicates,through the books He guides me to read,through the group meetings and Schools of life...that one thing needed at the moment to live according to His plan." These early O.G. books are a must read for anyone studying the history of AA, and are recommended by me to the men I sponsor to read to be of maximum service to Him. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa USA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8499. . . . . . . . . . . . Cannot find link to Oxford Group -- Game of Truth From: buckjohnson41686 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2012 10:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This link does not work for me http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang1.html --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > > If one looks at Victor Kitchen's book I Was A Pagan you will find the > Oxford Group Game of Truth including the columns > > Mitchell > > ______________________________ > > From the moderator (Glenn C.): For those who wish to look at it quickly, V. C. Kitchen's Game of Truth list is given at the very end of the chapter here: http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang1.html > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8500. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cannot find link to Oxford Group -- Game of Truth From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2012 11:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You are citing a link in AAHL message no. 2682: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2682 which was posted on Sep 30, 2005 That was a reference to a pre-publication copy of Glenn Chesnut's book on the Oxford Group. The pre-publication copy was taken offline once the actual book was published in September 2006, a year later. For information about the book see: http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html You can look up the "Game of Truth" in Kitchen's book, I Was a Pagan, which is available online: http://westbalto.a-1associates.com/LINKS/pagan.htm In this particular edition of Kitchen's I Was a Pagan, the Game of Truth with its parallel columns is at the very end of Chapter IX on page 49. But you don't need to look it up in either place, because Shakey Mike copied the entire Game of Truth section out of Kitchen's book in his e-mail which you just finished reading: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8495 from Shakey Mike on June 15, 2012 THE GAME OF TRUTH passage from Kitchen's book, which you are looking for, reads as follows: =================================== IN MY OLD LIFE I most liked: Myself. Liquor, tobacco and almost every other stimulant, narcotic and form of self-indulgence. Anything which gave me pleasure, possessions, power, position and applause, or pumped up my self-esteem. To be left largely to myself. My wife -- because of the comforting and complimentary way she treated me. I hated most: Poverty (for myself). Prohibition. Work. People who disapproved or tried to interfere with me. Any betrayal of my inner thoughts or emotions. IN MY NEW LIFE I most like: God. Time alone with God. The fellowship of the living Jesus Christ. The stimulation of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God's guidance. My wife -- because of the things God now enables us to do for each other. Communion with others who are trying to lead the same kind of Christ-centered life and the witnessing to all of what Christ has come to mean to me. I hate most: Sin. Self, because "I" is the middle letter of SIN. Sins that separate me from God. Sins that separate me from people. Anything that falls short of God's plan for me. =================================== *********************************************** THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE SAID: From: "buckjohnson41686" buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com> Date: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:17 pm Subject: Cannot find link to Oxford Group -- Game of Truth This link does not work for me http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang1.html --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote: > > If one looks at Victor Kitchen's book I Was A Pagan you will find the Oxford Group Game of Truth including the columns > > Mitchell > > > From the moderator (Glenn C.): For those who wish to look at it quickly, V. C. Kitchen's Game of Truth list is given at the very end of the chapter here: http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang1.html *********************************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8501. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origins of 4th step column format From: John Barton . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2012 8:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Some time back I came to the conclusion that Victor Kitchen had a great influence on Bill (perhaps much more than we recognize today) the writing of the big book and what we know today to be a "step" program. In "I was a Pagan" Kitchen clearly talks about taking "simple steps" to finding God. For example, the last line below reminds me of Bill saying in his story Simple but not easy, a price had to be paid. I second MIke's recommendation on reading the Oxford Group books. It helped me to understand how it all began and came together. Best Regards "The Oxford Group, it seemed to me, had tapped that power and were using it in the business of living with the dexterity of a spiritual Thomas Edison. Finally I got down to the point of questioning them. "You," they said in answer "believe that there is something going on in space. You, from what you tell us of your book, believe that God has some kind of a plan and method for developing the personality or soul of human beings. You naturally, therefore believe that it is everyone's duty to enter into conscious and direct co-operation with that plan. Rather than conflict with or kick against what is actually going on in the universe, you believe that people should enter consciously into the scheme of things and deliberately try to grow a soul. And yet you say you don't know how to do it. You don't know how to apply your beliefs. You don't know how to get in touch with God." These indeed were my beliefs and these indeed were my difficulties. "You believe there's a plan," they continued. "Did it never occur to you to get in touch with the Author of that plan, asking Him directly what His plan is and what He wants you to do about it?" No - I was forced to admit - nothing as simple as that ever had occurred to me. I had thought, from a casual survey of occult religions that, through a series of initiations, adaptations, or whatever you go through, one might somehow get in touch with a so-called "cosmic consciousness" - whatever that might be. And I had my own idea of exploring a "spiritual environment." But the idea of getting directly in touch with God Himself - of asking Him questions and getting answers and directions for the conduct of my life - seemed to me an out-and-out absurdity. Yet these people said it could be done. They said they were doing it themselves and that was what gave them the power to apply beliefs and carry out the plan of God - a power that I did not have. They said, however, that I could have it - just as they did - if I would pay the same price - comply with the same conditions - and go through the same series of exceedingly simple steps." I Was a Pagan, VC Kitchen - p.31-32 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8502. . . . . . . . . . . . Court card and compulsory attendance at AA/NA meetings From: trysh travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2012 11:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm not familiar with the term "court card" or its histroy. Charley Bill, could you please sketch it out, based on your interview? Trysh Travis On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Charley Bill charley92845@gmail.com>wrote: > ** > > > Please collect the UK figures and write a letter to the Guardian showing > how much addictions cost your country and how much money it would save if > some of these people 'get it' and continue on the road to sobriety. > > I had a delightful lunch yesterday with Judge Leon Emerson, retired > Superior Court of California. Leon is an old friend and great supporter of > AA and addictions treatment, etc. He described for a friend and me how the > court card was invented by him and an alkie named Bud McDonald, deceased. I > had heard the story before many times, but Leon also opened up about his > WWII experiences on a fleet tug in the Pacific. He is very lucky to have > survived a kamikaze attack on his ship. I did not have my tape recorder, so > I missed the war story, but I have the court card genesis story on tape, > with Bud MC Donald, from a previous meeting with both of them. > > > On 5/31/2012 8:52 AM, Laurie Andrews wrote: > > > > The Guardian has carried articles critical of the coalition > > government's policy of forcing problem drinkers/addicts to attend > > AA/NA meetings or lose their benefits. The first is by John Sutherland: > > > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/24/iain-duncan-smith-alcoho lic-\ plan [58] > > > > and the other is a follow-up in today's paper by Tanya Gold. > > > > G.C. note -- the Guardian is the third largest British > > national daily newspaper. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8503. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr. Bob Cremated? From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2012 8:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a pictures of the memorial program from Dr. Bob's funeral. Rev. Tunks did officiate. Feel free to email me and I'll be happy to share: cbudnick@nc.rr.com> (cbudnick@nc.rr.com) Chris B. Raleigh, North Carolina IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8504. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hank P. From: Michael Gwirtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2012 12:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We all know about the Ruth Hock and furniture problems between the first two NY members. Hank did start the 1st NJ group that was never properly listed among the original AA groups. Lois's diary details the plight of Hank. He did drink. We all know that. His contributions to AA should not be less because he drank. Jackie Williams who carried the message to Jimmy Burwell drank again and died from our disease. He did carry the message to Jimmy the agnostic they did not want in AA. Jimmy knew Hank and Fitz. Is it a small world. I think not. God used these men to give us AA. Hank proofed every page of the printers copy of the big book. He wrote "To Employers". He pushed for the book, and The 100 man corporation . Yes He drank. That does not diminish his contribution to AA ( the alcoholic squad of the Oxford Group). I hope the NJ members will contribute more on Hank and the contributions of the early NJ members. He did what Jimmy did in Phila. He did not push for a one man show. He got others involved. That's the way it should be. Thank God for AA. , Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila,PA USA - - - - Original message #8498 from Baileygc23@aol.com> (Baileygc23 at aol.com) Hank went back to drinking and it seems that problems with at least one woman and finances was involved. So laying out the outline for the first version of the big book was no more an impediment to drinking than resolving not to drink. Setting rules for each other might help for a while but sooner or later we are going to think, and alcohol will be there as an option for us again. As Bill later said, "It seems the landscape was littered with fallen forms". One of those fallen forms was Hank. We should be thankful for those who criticized the big book and got it a little more acceptable at the time to others. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8505. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Court card and compulsory attendance at AA/NA meetings From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2012 2:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On 6/18/2012 11:20, trysh travis wrote: > I'm not familiar with the term "court card" or its histroy. Charley Bill, could you please sketch it out, based on your interview? Many miscreants convicted of a crime involving alcohol are given the option by the court to attend A.A. meetings in lieu of what may be viewed as more severe punishment. Meeting attendance is verified by the miscreant submitting what A.A.s call a court card for the chair to sign, usually expecting a phone number also. I know in one rural area where I have attended a lot of meetings refuses to sign these cards, saying it is a violation of anonymity at the public level. I have been signing them since the 1990s and have never been contacted by the justice system. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8506. . . . . . . . . . . . Pioneer Update-Harlan Spencer From: B . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/19/2012 10:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks to a fellow History Lover Member and a call to the cemetery, it was discovered that one of our pioneers, Harlan Spencer, AA#28, is buried in an unmarked grave at Mount Peace Cemetery, although he is on a family plot. He is to the left of his first wife, Alice. Although the grave may be unmarked, his contributions will be marked in my heart for as long as i live, soberly, one day at a time. Glad he is in the same cemetery as Dr. Bob. Blessings, Brian IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8507. . . . . . . . . . . . 2004 De Profundis : Spiritual Transformations From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/19/2012 1:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Adduced below are certain sections of (2004) "De Profundis: Spiritual Transformations in Alcoholics Anonymous," by Alyssa A. Forcehimes, University of New Mexico. Excluded are "Case Studies" and "What Is Alcoholics Anonymous?" (w/ some small history) - since many can guess at those - the schemata, a fairly common "inverted bell curve" from M. Glatt 1958 and "Concluding Remark"(s), which I personally found interesting but can be found elsewhere. The ultimate, intrinsic value to AA history might be negligible, but since there may be remote relevance, even by contra-valence to what Makela et. al. (1998) have aptly described as (the generalized) "recovery consciousness," and which I've termed (on the Points blog - Comments section) the "recovery milieu"; I think it also makes sense to proclaim the existence of a bonafide "New Age recovery milieu," for distinction, likewise incipient with the release - in 1986/7 - of Shirley McLane's book/film *Out On A Limb* and (re)publication in 1987 of *The Aquarian Conspiricy.* Those dates roughly coincide w/ Makela's notably emergent "consciousness" and Schaef's book *When Society Becomes an Addict.* I think more about certain aspects of this is to be found in Prof. Travis' *Language of the Heart* (or Loh to distinguish from Wilson's LOH), but I'll have to re-read it. Some of the latter also might be best described as identifiable bifurcations of a "crucially significant and influential religious river, a river in which 'lowbrow' and 'canonical' currents of religiosity are inseparably intermixed, a river that, in many ways, flows directly through the heartland of Western culture," a la G. William Barnard ("Reflections on Psychology as a Religion," 2001; which is, by the way, the only [published] "rejoinder" [I know of] to Kurtz's 1999 "Spirituality of William James"). Anyway, here goes: ~~~ Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me �Psalm 51: 10 King James Version During his sober moments he wept in the realization of his bondage to alcohol and the despair of his current situation. Those who offered their opinions of his drinking problem were rebuffed with defensive responses. Their accusations were met with deaf ears. Then there was the day he came home to find caseworkers in his house. The final blow was so appalling that he fell to his knees in despair. His seven-year-old daughter, the one thing that he had been able to hold onto, was taken away because of his neglect while drinking. Weeping, he cried aloud to God, knowing that he could not bear this meaningless tragedy. With relentless suffering, humility was the only thing he had gained from his utter loss. Surrendering all that he had was the starting-point for fresh development he found in Alcoholics Anonymous. Out of the depths he cried out to them, and was answered: "Hi . . . My name is Bob; and I'm an alcoholic." "Hi, Bob!" chorused the group. According to Alcoholics Anonymous, in order to recover from alcohol dependence, two things are of paramount importance: one's personal effort and God's grace. Personal effort alone does not hold enough power to transcend one's self'this is known from the individual's previous attempts; nor is God's grace'for nothing can be received unless and until one is receptive. When Bob walked through the door, the pathway was illuminated. Twelve steps stretched ahead and twelve promises glimmered in the distance. What is the mystery of this program that has assisted in the recovery of millions of alcoholics? And what is its connection to quantum change? ...The remainder of step twelve states that the individual will try to carry the message of this spiritual awakening and its resulting freedom to others and will practice these principles in all their affairs. It is a great promise, but what is a spiritual awakening? ... What Defines a Spiritual Awakening in Alcoholics Anonymous? William "Bill" Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, defined his spiritual awakening as a mystical and instantaneous life-changing incident. After years of binge drinking, Wilson realized that he was licked, admitted it, and was willing to turn his life over to the care of God (Kurtz, 1979, p. 19). After coming to this conclusion during a period of alcohol withdrawal accompanied by a depressive episode, Wilson experienced a truth that he immediately accepted as an illuminated path out of alcohol dependence - one that paradoxically left him hopeful in the realization of his powerlessness. He described his 1934 experience: Suddenly the room lit up with a great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself, "So this is the God of the preachers!" A great peace stole over me and I thought, "No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are all right. Things are all right with God and His world. (Kurtz, 1979, pp. 19 20) After this mystical transformational experience, Wilson never drank again and set out on a quest to help others who were still struggling with alcohol dependence. He was assisted by Doctor Bob, the co-founder of A.A., and received additional advice from Doctor Silkworth, his doctor and the author of a chapter in The Big Book titled "The Doctor's Opinion." Silkworth reinforced the need for a substantial spiritual transformation and declared that "unless the alcoholic can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery" (Alcoholics Anonymous, 2001, xxix). Several chapters of The Big Book encourage readers to pursue a spiritual experience and emphasize its importance in the recovery process. There is a push to have an insightful experience where the realization of hopelessness and the necessity of a higher power produce lasting changes. Carl Jung's conversation with Rowland H., a friend of Bill W's, was one of the foundational moments of A.A. (Kurtz, 1979, p. 33). After a particularly heavy relapse, Jung bluntly informed Rowland that he was a chronic alcoholic in a hopeless situation. Jung told Rowland that he had never seen an alcoholic with such an extreme condition recover successfully. When Rowland asked if there was any way out of his condition, Jung described the one exception as people who had experienced the phenomenon of "vital transformational experiences" (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 27). Jung described the experiences in this way: [Spiritual transformations] appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 27) As defined by Wilson, Silkworth, and Jung, a spiritual transformation holds great personal significance, changes self-perception, and enhances one's relationship to the world. It seems lofty to claim all individuals will have this experience, for there appear to be many pathways out of alcohol dependence, the transformational experience being just one (Edwards, 1992; Fletcher, 2001). Some who were strictly adhering to the guidelines of the program and carefully reading the Big Book became despondent when they read about the necessity of a spiritual experience to maintain sobriety. In 1962, to address this issue, Wilson wrote an article in The Grapevine, an A.A. publication in which he clarified the characteristics of spiritual experiences by first relaying the mystical quality of his own: It now seems clear that the only special feature of my experience was its electric suddenness and the overwhelming and immediate conviction that it carried to me. In all other respects, however, I am sure that my own experience was not in the least different than that received by every Alcoholics Anonymous member who has strenuously practiced our recovery program. (Wilson, 1962, p. 2) He further discussed members' frustration from uncertainty of how to receive the spiritual angle. He shared the experience of a member who did not have the spiritual angle, but admitted to "having found not only his release from alcohol, but a complete change in his whole attitude toward life and the living of it." Wilson commented, "It is apparent to nearly everyone else present that he has received a great gift; and that this gift was all out of proportion to anything that might be expected from simple A.A. activity" (Wilson, 1962, p.3). From this view, spiritual experiences promote the ability to achieve the goal of abstinence and offer the additional gift of grace that enables a transformation beyond the individual's capacity. They are spiritual because for A.A. members, salvation consists of "emerging from isolation" to the "feeling of being at one with God and man" (Kurtz, 1979, p. 125). The shift from a sense of isolation to belonging is the aim of A.A.'s spiritual program; therefore, the spiritual experience is the necessary means to move from destructive independence to proper dependence on God and others (Kurtz, 1979). Wilson shrugged off the time frame of a spiritual experience, stating, "I fail to see any great difference between the sudden experiences and the more gradual ones - they are certainly all of the same piece" (Wilson, 1962, p. 3).Wilson offered one test as a valid measurement of whether it was truly a spiritual experience: "By their fruits, ye shall know them" (Matthew 7:20). His view on different types of spiritual experiences was that members would receive whichever might be the most useful for their needs. This publication in The Grapevine eventually was expounded upon and included in the second edition of The Big Book as Appendix II, an emphasis on the equality of instantaneous and gradual experiences.Within A.A.,Wilson declared that the two types of experience were equal; however, outside of A.A., are these two types truly interchangeable? Are the Instantaneous and Gradual Types Interchangeable? In The Varieties of Religious Experience, James (1902) differentiated between those who have an immediate release from their internal conflicts as a separate type than those who have a gradual experience that involves more of the conscious will. James' view was that sudden conversion experiences stem from subconscious development of motives, which eventually attain such tension that they enter consciousness with a sudden burst. These two processes of change illustrate different pathways out of alcohol dependence. Some experiences are gradual and require an extensive process, whereas others are insightful and bring about instantaneous change. Although Wilson shared the view of James, claiming that both experiences are equally useful, instantaneous change tends to evoke permanence (Miller & C de Baca, 2001) while gradual change is characterized by a stage of maintenance followed by periods of relapse (Prochaska & DiClemente, 1984). Gradual, stepwise models have emerged as the classic pattern describing the process of change. Prochaska and Diclemente's (1984) Transtheoretical Model of Change exemplifies this cyclical process. This model is built around an individual�s readiness to change; individuals move through the stages of precontemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, and maintenance. Most people do not maintain change on their first try, but instead cycle through stages before reaching stable change. Relapse in this model is common as a normal part of the change process. The very nature of an alcohol-dependence diagnosis supports the idea of gradual change. A DSM diagnosis of alcohol dependence is reached by confirming an individual's inability to sustain abstinence, and the typical trajectory of recovery frequently involves problems in cutting down or trying to quit. The DSM-IV TR states, "Alcohol Abuse and Dependence [has] a variable course that is frequently characterized by periods of remission and relapse. A decision to stop drinking, often in response to a crisis, is likely to be followed by weeks or more of abstinence, which is often followed by limited periods of controlled or nonproblematic drinking" (American Psychiatric Association, 2000, p. 221). This cycle of maintenance and relapse suggests the typical route to change. Instantaneous transformational experiences define another process of change. Quantum-change experiences, as defined by Miller & C de Baca (2001, p. 5) are "permanent transformations, a one-way door through which there is no going back." These quantum-change experiences are characterized by their unexpected nature and lasting quality. Within quantum changes, a distinction is made between an insightful and mystical type. The insightful type tends to "follow from the person's development rather than being an intrusion into it" (p. 19). While there is continuity, there is also a new realization that profoundly impacts the individual's reality. The mystical, more dramatic type arrives and "the person knows immediately that something major has happened and that life will never be the same again" (Miller & C�de Baca, 2001, p. 20). In recorded statements of both types of quantum-change experiences, "subjects often reported that everything changed. The enduring and presumed stable attributes that characterize people [were where] quantum change seem[ed] to occur. [Shifts were reported] in dimensions such as values, life goals, temperament, and perceptual style" (Miller & C de Baca, 1994, p. 271). Quantum-change experiences have similarities to the experiences encouraged in members of A.A. Bill Wilson's own transformation is a classic example of a quantum-change experience. The Big Book describes a spiritual experience as the ultimate defense against drinking and the means of change in A.A. It states: If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 44) The singularity of spiritual experience and the strength that will conquer the illness of alcoholism defines the permanent quality of quantum-change experiences. Another section of the Big Book states, "The great fact is just this, and nothing less: That we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole"attitude toward life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe� (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 25). The overarching quality of this experience identifies another core aspect of the quantum change through its impact on all areas of the individual's life. After a discussion of the characteristics of the two types of change, it is useful to read some A.A. members' stories, which clarify the distinction between these two types of change. The Individualized Timeline of Change It is plausible that Glatt's (1958) curve clarifies the recovery process within A.A. Glatt used the information Jellinek (1952) collected to model an inverted bell curve describing the nature of alcoholism and the progression of recovery (Fig. 1). The inverted bell curve is divided in half at the lowest point of the curve. Glatt used the information Jellinek (1952) collected to model the downward curve, and added the ascending curve from his own investigations of the process of recovery. To the left are the steps that an individual progresses along as they become more dependent on alcohol where they subsequently experience symptoms such as work and money troubles, physical deterioration, and failed efforts to control their drinking. As one nears the bottom of the curve, two interesting experiences appear: vague spiritual desires and admission of complete defeat (Jellinek, 1952). At the curve's low point is the physical manifestation of one of the most widely known phrases from A.A.: Hitting bottom. Similar to Wilson's own experience, this is the point of utter hopelessness and a need for saving grace. Glatt (1958) added the stages of recovery to the right side of the curve. The first step is an honest desire for help, followed by the fourth step of stops taking alcohol, and finally the emergence of an enlightened and interesting way of life. The curve is individualized because of different turning points, depths, and time frames. For a spiritual awakening within A.A., gradual and instantaneous refers to the distance between the lowest point and the turning point where the individual experiences a spiritual awakening and achieves true sobriety. Wilson stressed the need for total deflation; the steps were intended to enable members to find lasting change by moving from the deflation of isolation to increased spirituality. The bottom of the curve does not represent the last drink taken because abstinence is not the focus in this curve. According to A.A., the duration of one�s abstinence does not define recovery. A dry drunk characterizes an individual who might be abstinent but does not have the spiritual angle that leads to sobriety. In A.A., abstinence is defined as refraining from consuming alcohol and sobriety is the concurrence of abstinence and a spiritual transformation. Distinguishing between abstinence and sobriety is apparent in the following example: A man of thirty was doing a great deal of spree drinking. He was very nervous in the morning after these bouts and quieted himself with more liquor. He was ambitious to succeed in business, but saw that he would get nowhere if he drank at all. Once he started, he had no control whatever. He made up his mind that until he had been successful in business and had retired, he would not touch another drop. An exceptional man, he remained bone dry for twenty-five years and retired at the age of fifty-five, after a successful and happy business career. Then he fell victim to a belief which practically every alcoholic has - that his long period of [abstinence] and self-discipline had qualified him to drink as other men . . . In two months he was in a hospital, puzzled and humiliated. He tried to regulate his drinking for a little while, making several trips to the hospital in the meantime. Then, gathering all his forces, he attempted to stop altogether and found he could not . . . Every attempt failed. Though a robust man at retirement, he went to pieces quickly and was dead within four years. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, pp. 32 33) While there are individual differences in the time frames and lowest points of the curve, there are some similarities in the experiences. Wilson summarized that "the key to the AA Way of Life is - simply - humility" (Kurtz, 1979, p. 124). From the Big Book, three themes seem to emerge as essential characteristics marking the transition from humility in the depths to increased spirituality through oneness with God and others. The De Profundis Sequence Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O Lord. . . (Psalm 130:1) Spiritual transformation in A.A. is one particular type of quantum change. The process toward a spiritual transformation can be summarized in the Latin phrase de profundis, meaning out of the depths. The path to a spiritual transformation involves a three-step sequence of (1) hitting bottom, (2) contrition, and (3) surrender. Hitting bottom describes the experience of an ultimate low point and the recognition of personal inability to control one's alcohol problem. In the second step, individuals feel contrition out of sorrow for the present situation and desire for a new way. Finally, in the step of surrender, there is admission of powerlessness followed by action of yielding personal will to God's will. The third step is the most surprising step in the sequence because of its departure from traditionalWestern society's view of the process of change. Rather than pulling one's self together, taking personal accountability and making resolutions to solve the problem, A.A. emphasizes the importance of surrendering control to God. As a result of surrender, the 12th-step promise of a spiritual transformation emerges. Hitting Bottom Wilson summarized, "You must always remember that 'hitting bottom' is the essence of getting hold of AA - really" (Kurtz, 1979, p. 61). Interestingly, this phrase is never mentioned by name in the Big Book. According to Glatt�s curve (1958), hitting bottom is the point where the paths diverge: to one side is a steep descending path to death; to the other side is a steep ascending path to a new life. Similar to the idea of hitting bottom is the tipping of the "decisional balance" (Miller & Rollnick, 2002). As the balance is tipped in favor of abstinence, the ambivalence between the competing desires to continue to drink and to abstain are reconciled after a continuous gradual process. Sometimes, however, this happens in a discrete moment of insight similar to Baumeister's (1991) concept of a crystallization of discontent. The crystallization process occurs when contradictory events, such as those evoked through step work, link together to form a large pattern of negative dissonant thought, which promotes a reassessment of previous commitments. Successful A.A. members are so passionate about the necessity of hitting bottom that they push other members to recognize this point early in the recovery process. For members who had not hit bottom yet, A.A. "develop[ed] a conscious technique of raising the bottom and hitting them with it" (Kurtz, 1979, 115). The step-work process first ensures that the individual has passed through the stage of hitting bottom. As Reverend Shoemaker (1936, p. 5), a friend of Wilson and publicist for the Oxford Group, stated: The first step is not resurrection, it is crucifixion. It is the crucifixion of pride, narrowness, stupidity, ignorant prejudice, and intolerance. There is no resurrection without crucifixion: either God's will is crucified on it [the Cross] or our will is crucified on it so that God's will may prevail. Christ died to show us the everlasting victory and effectiveness of dying to self, that God might make His will prevail. When the individual hits bottom, this exemplifies the "dying to self." In order to have a "crucifixion of pride," humility from admitting one's wrongs must occur through step-work. Although it may seem counterintuitive, it is possible to make use of the descending path toward hitting bottom as a way to the ascending quality of the spiritual transformation. Similar to St. John of the Cross' maxim, the soul must empty itself of self and experience a passive purgation through deep trials from God. The freedom that stems from the spiritual cleansing is repaid in the glory of a union with God. In a similar way, the AA member who experiences the downward movement toward hitting bottom actually is beginning an ascent. When the prior self has been exposed in its most raw and unmanageable form, humility creates a fertile ground for the spiritual awakening. Contrition Psalm 51:17 reads, "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise." The rawness that results from hitting bottom leaves personal pride crushed. In the humble cry of repentance, individuals turn around in contrition to reveal vulnerability and openness, preparing the absorption of new information. In this poverty of spirit, the ability for a spiritual awakening is enabled - the crushed individual can be "renew[ed with] a right spirit" (Psalm 51:10). The following individual found peace in a spiritual transformation: We pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every twist of character, every dark cranny of the past. Once we have taken this step, withholding nothing, we are delighted.We can look the world in the eye. We can be alone at perfect peace and ease. Our fears fall from us. We begin to feel the nearness of our Creator. We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience. The feeling that the drink problem has disappeared will often come strongly. We feel we are on the Broad Highway, walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 75) This is where the de profundis moan begins to sound. Without yet calling on God and asking for help, the individual who has developed contrition is cognizant of the rational experience of hitting bottom and realizes their situation is out of control. Once the individual has experienced the depths of the bottom, there is fear of returning to that place knowing that it brings death or insanity (Glatt, 1958). Contrition is a deeper feeling than shame because it implies the desire and intent to find a new way. Sincerity of heart and meekness of spirit combined with the experience of an ultimate low point prepares the individual to welcome a new worldview. Surrender Contrition was the attitude required for a spiritual awakening; surrender is the action that corresponds. Just as Wilson exclaimed, "If there is a God, let Him show himself," there is a moment of peace when individuals admit their hopelessness and allow someone else to take control (Kurtz, 1979, p. 19). Surrender requires recognizing the presence of a higher power to whom one can appeal for help. The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 43). A.A. encourages members to recognize the presence of a higher power and to appeal to that power for help. Potential members must "fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is or He isn�'. What was [their] choice to be?" As one individual described: There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then understood Him, to do with me as He would. I placed myself unreservedly under His care and direction. I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that without Him I was lost. I ruthlessly faced my sins and became willing to have my new-found Friend take them away, root and branch. I have not had a drink since. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 76) A.A. rejects those who scoff at the idea of a higher power - those who feel that depending on something is a sign of weakness.Weakness, to A.A., is the empty life of an individual who has not found a higher power and is struggling to abstain using willpower alone. In one chapter of the Big Book, it states, "In this book you read again and again that faith did for us what we could not do for ourselves.We hope you are convinced now that God can remove whatever self-will has blocked you off from Him" (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 70 71). The case is presented and supported by the success that was achieved by those who rigorously followed the program. It does not even admit to the possibility that there never was a God; it just offers a wish to readers that they might remove the self-will that has come between themselves and their faith. In the chapter for agnostics, the Big Book states: When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 52) The need for a higher power and the surrender to that power is met with a savior granting freedom from fear and hopelessness, as well as the former destruction of themselves and others. Surrender offers the cleansing and transforming power of the ultimate and infinite miracle of grace. As Brown and Miller (in press) wrote, "It is a paradox: giving up control (letting go, surrender) paves the way for greater mastery in life." By admitting defeat in the ability to conquer the difficulty with alcohol, the surrendering individual asks God for help. Metaphorically handing over one's life in surrender was how this member facilitated a spiritual awakening: On the third day the lawyer gave his life to the care and direction of his Creator, and said he was perfectly willing to do anything necessary. His wife came, scarcely daring to be hopeful, though she thought she saw something different about her husband already. He had begun to have a spiritual experience. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 158) When, through the step work, A.A. members surrender their old lives, they are enabling it to be replaced gradually with the new lifestyle that is offered by A.A. As they progress through the program, members realize that A.A. is more than treatment for alcohol dependence. The A.A. program entails a transformation from the lifestyle that was associated with the substance. The De Profundis Sequence: Parallels to the Twelve Steps The de profundis sequence has parallels to the first three of the twelve steps of A.A. As Tonigan and Horstmann (2000) described, steps one through three promote a deferring God relationship while the working of additional steps creates a more collaborative relationship with God. The experience of hitting bottom and the subsequent attitude of contrition corresponds to the first step of "admitting we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable" (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 59). At this lowest point, individuals are aware of how out of control their life has become, but are defenseless over the ability to refrain from drinking. Contrition is the reaction to the admission of powerlessness and the feeling of vulnerability succeeding this realization. The second and third steps correspond to the process of surrender. The second step states, "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 59). After the first step, there is a realization that the alcohol problem cannot be conquered alone. The second step is an admission of need for God. The third step is where action is required through surrender to God. This step states, "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him" (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 59). This is where the de profundis cry for help is heard. From the depths of despair, the individual realizes the need for a higher power, puts faith in this belief, and hands over control. As The Big Book states, the shift from isolation to oneness is found in "the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has commenced to accomplish those things for us that we could never do by ourselves" (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 25). The de profundis sequence corresponds to Tonigan and Horstmann�s (2000) finding that the first three steps promote a submissive relationship to God. A.A. uses the reliance on this relationship with God to achieve a barrier from relapse. Alone, a fall is inevitable, but in creating a dependence on God and reliance on His will, the individual does not feel alone. The dramatic necessity of faith is conveyed in the statement, "Faith has to work twenty-four hours a day in and through us, or we perish" (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 16). The Result of a Spiritual Transformation As a result of the de profundis sequence, A.A. members are changed discretely, profoundly, and permanently. In the acceptance of and surrender to God, there is a modification to the deepest level of the self. Similar to the profound and lasting effects quantum changers experienced, many facets of life become different after the transformational experience. Release from Burden As Wilson described in the shift from isolation to oneness with God and others, there is a shift from personal to divine omnipotence. The individual no longer defies but accepts help and guidance from the outside. In the narrative Taking the A.A. Train (Miller & C de Baca, 2001), a woman transformed through a quantum-change experience explained, "What you learn is complete reliance on God. I'd had glimpses of relying on God in my life, but never so totally" (p. 53). A new depth of spirituality emerges as a result of the transformational experience. Loss of a Desire to Drink As a result of the spiritual transformation, many A.A. members discover that the desire to drink is taken away. One member, amazed by the impact of his spiritual transformation, described: Strange as this may seem to those who do not understand - once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, xxvi) Service to Others The service outcome of the spiritual transformation is apparent in those who desire to become involved in outreach work and fulfill the second part of the twelfth step to "carry this message to other alcoholics" (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 60). Similar to Christian theology, works are a result of the salvation that has been granted through A.A. The Apostle James' idea that "by works was faith made perfect" parallels this idea that living righteously strengthens one's faith (James 2:22). Wilson supported the need for works, and part of the fellowship is an understanding that selfishness must be replaced with selflessness that is gained by becoming a sponsor, sharing one's story, and looking out for one another. Offering the path of salvation to those who still are suffering is one of the most imperative works: My friend had emphasized the absolute necessity of demonstrating these principles in all my affairs. Particularly was it imperative to work with others as he had worked with me. Faith without works was dead, he said. And how appallingly true for the alcoholic! For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others, he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead. If he did not work, he would surely drink again, and if he drank, he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed. With us it is just like that. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, pp. 14 15) Reaching out to others does not always have to be in the form of sponsorship or outreach. Making the coffee before meetings or answering the phone for a few hours at an A.A. club are ways members exemplify their commitment to the fellowship. An example encouraging these types of works states, "To be vital, faith must be accompanied by self-sacrifice and unselfish, constructive action" (Alcoholics Anonymous, 1976, p. 93). In a declaration made at the 30th aniversary International Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous, Wilson stated, "Whenever anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A. always to be there. And for that, I am responsible." Inner Peace Emotions tend to change as a result of the spiritual transformation. There is often a release from the negative emotions that surrounded drinking. As one member stated, "I've tried to explain to my husband what happened, and he's seen the change. He saw me just being nicer and sweeter and happier, at least more of the time. I used to be kind of glum and depressing. I'm just happier. . . More of my spirit has come back" (Miller & C de Baca, 2001, p. 53). As a result of the spiritual transformation, struggles with negative emotions often are replaced with an increased feeling of security and inner strength, offering enduring peace. ~~~ Best, Paul IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8508. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Court card and compulsory attendance at AA/NA meetings From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2012 10:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Sherry Hartsell, Laurie Andrews, Terry G., userlw802000, Baileygc23, and "Paul" spectrumptg - - - - From: "hartsell" hartsell@etex.net> (hartsell at etex.net) In 1968 I attended The Top O' Texas Roundup, an AA get-together in Amarillo, Texas and the Saturday night speaker was a Judge from Chicago who "purportedly" was the first Judge to "Sentence" alcoholic "miscreants" :-) to attend AA and provide proof of attendance. Of course since then I learned of a California Judge who also claims the same -- I have no clue re validity of either claim, but although I resisted signing them initially, I just finished attending a small meeting where they were submitted AND signed. Sherry C. H., alive in Northeast Texas and sober by God's grace since 12-28-67 - - - - From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) There is a Guideline on "Co-operating with Court, DWI and Similar Programs" on the AA website: click on the Groups and Members portal and scroll down to CPC. - - - - From: "TerryG" oldhippieinaa2@gmail.com> (oldhippieinaa2 at gmail.com) Court cards are issued to people the courts think are problem drinkers/addicts. They have to attend a specified number of meeting of AA/NA and they have to take the card to the meetings they attend and have it signed by the chairperson of the meeting they attend. Usually the cards require the chairperson to sign his name, the name of the group, the location of the meeting and the phone number of the person that signed the card. Terry G DOS 11-27-07 Yankton South Dakota. - - - - From: userlw802000@yahoo.com> (userlw802000 at yahoo.com) In my district it's called meeting slips. - - - - From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com) How one works with newcomers is his own business. Groups may refuse to sign slips, but they should not force their members to not sign slips. AA says there is freedom of thought and action in AA. So much today is forcing others to do what the majority wants and ignoring the rights of the minority. Bill W said that most of us have come to the conclusion that the groups exist for those that do not yet know there is a way out. - - - - From: "Paul" spectrumptg@yahoo.com> (spectrumptg at yahoo.com) "Sometimes the court will order a person to receive treatment and attend a Twelve Step Program. Even the court ordered attendees sometimes undergo a life changing experience in a Twelve Step group, although they do so under duress, at least in the beginning." --- from "Spirituality and the Twelve Steps" by JAMES W. MULLINS, International Journal of Applied Psychoanalytic Studies Int. J. Appl. Psychoanal. Studies (2010) Published online in Wiley InterScience At first glance, in "a program of attraction rather than promotion," it could hardly be a more difficult than to legitimize instances of the oxymoronic "mandated AA." Rigor, however, isn't always the answer. I'm not a lawyer, but there's a decent chance relevant law is here: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1008140.html =========================================== "Ricky K. Inouye alleges violations of his First Amendment rights by his parole officer .... Inouye charges that Mark Nanamori, his parole officer, violated the Establishment Clause by requiring Inouye to attend Alcoholics Anonymous/Narcotics Anonymous ('AA/NA') meetings as a condition of his parole .... Inouye, who had a methamphetamine addiction and had been sentenced for drug crimes, was released on parole on November 20, 2000 .... Inouye had long objected to compelled participation in religion-based drug treatment programs. In June of 2000, while imprisoned, he filed suit against state officials over his placement in such treatment programs in prison. Inouye then took steps to avoid religion-based drug treatment programs on parole. Just before his release, on November 9, 2000, his attorney sent a letter to the Hawaii Paroling Authority, expressing Inouye's opposition to being placed in a religion-based narcotics treatment program as a condition of his parole. The letter read, in pertinent part: 'Mr. Inouye is a Buddhist. As such, he objects on grounds of the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution to any state imposed religious practice as a condition of his parole. Enclosed is a copy of the decision in Kerr v. Farrey, 95 F.3d 472 (7th Cir.1996), which holds that the Alcoholics Anonymous 12 step program cannot be imposed by the state as a requirement for eligibility for parole. Mr. Inouye does not object to participating in a substance abuse treatment program. However, he does object to any program that has explicit religious content. This includes, but is not limited to, the recitation of prayers at meetings, whether or not Mr. Inouye is required to participate in the prayer.'" =========================================== It would be hard to "establish" that AA's "heart goes out to the victims," but, it would appear, that it does occasionally go out to the perps. If there were historical significance, I would argue it is AA's unity within (an intended) diversity that contributes to the overall cohesion of Western society. For better or worse, the criminal justice system has been, and will continue to, "be exploitative" of that situation, in a fashion Kurtz (1979, 1992) might describe as "Liberal Humanism" or others might posit "Christian charity," and both correctly. For all those who might argue "against" AA, and sometimes on very substantial grounds, even they can be thankful "ruthlessness & vengefulness" has been expunged from AA philosophy - not from all AA's themselves of course - but from AA as an institution, which court authorities also tend to view it as. Are judges immune to alcoholism? "Resentment" may be "the number one offender." But HOPELESSNESS destroys more people. Give the card-carrier some hope, and he'll never forget; offend the card-carrier, and likewise. Most healthy AA's already know that. They had little choice but to learn it. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8509. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hank P. From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/19/2012 5:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Paul Zoidhog, Jeff Bruce, and Brian Koch Concerning the previous postings about Henry (Hank) Parkhurst, who got sober in October or November 1935, making him A.A. #2 in New York, until he resumed drinking about four years later. Hank's story "The Unbeliever" was in the 1st edition of the Big Book. - - - - From: "Paul" zoidhog@yahoo.com> (zoidhog at yahoo.com) I wish someone would write a book on Hank P. to dissolve all these questions about his contribution to AA. Zoidhog - - - - From: Jeff Bruce aliasjb@gmail.com> (aliasjb at gmail.com) Great posting, Mike. As far as I can see, without Hank there would have been no AA. - - - - From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com) Thanks for this Mike. Wholeheartedly agree. God uses all of us human beings one and all. Brian - - - - RESPONDING TO AAHistoryLovers message 8504 from Michael Gwirtz Shakey1aa@aol.com> (Shakey1aa at aol.com) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8504 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8510. . . . . . . . . . . . Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W. From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2012 5:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group, I am working on a project about the history of the pamphlets produced by GSO over the years. Mostly when it came about, any changes in content, name changes and sadly when it went out of print. I am using old Conference reports, Box 459, AA Grapevines, and Conference Action booklet as my source. Have really learned a great deal about our literature from this project. In researching this pamphlet, Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W., I found that in 1955 the pamphlet "Alcoholism The Illness" by Bill W. was published. There were excerpts from an address presented to the Medical Society of the State New York Section on Neurology and Psychiatry Annual Meeting, New York, N.Y., May 1944 and excerpts from an address presented to the American Psychiatric Association 105th Annual Meeting, Montreal, Quebec, May 1949. Then sometime around 1971 a third talk by Bill was added that was made to the New York City Medical Society on Alcoholism in 1958. At this same time the name of the pamphlet was changed to "Bill on Alcoholism." Then in 1973 the name was changed again to "Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W. Co-founder of AA." since the current title seems confusing and misleading to many readers. My question to the group is prior to this pamphlet there was a reprint of Bill's address published in the American Journal of Psychiatry, November, 1949. (Which was the same talk given in May 1949 in Quebec) Does anyone have a copy of this reprint who would like to scan just the cover and send it to me? Also if anyone has access to images of older pamphlets I would greatly appreciate their contact information and perhaps I would not have to keep asking the group for this kind of help Thanks Charles from Wisconsin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8511. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book included in 88 Books That Shaped America From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2012 1:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 88 Books That Shaped America, According To Library Of Congress Huffington Post (June 25, 2012) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/25/88-books-that-shaped-amer_n_1618786 .htm\ l [62] UNITED STATES LIBRARY OF CONGRESS (the U.S. equivalent of the British Museum for the U.K., the Bibliotheque nationale for France, etc., that is, that country's great national library and book repository) "On Friday, the Library of Congress released its list of the 'books that shaped America.' There are 88 books on the list, and there will be an exhibit in Washington that opens Monday. According to the AP, Librarian of Congress James Billington said that these books are not meant to be the "best" books. Rather, the library hopes to ignite conversation around the books that influenced the nation .... At first glance, we thought this list was pretty comprehensive. But then we realized: where are Edith Wharton, Willa Cather, Flannery O'Connor, Kurt Vonnegut, Thomas Pynchon and Henry James?" Alcoholics Anonymous (the A.A. Big Book) is Number 51 (in chronological order) among the 88 books: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/25/88-books-that-shaped-amer_n_1618786 .htm\ l#slide=1131370 [63] (It is clear from reading the list that they were only looking at works written by U.S. authors. But it is still an interesting list.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8512. . . . . . . . . . . . History-Archives Gathering - Eastern Pennsylvania - Aug 11, 2012 From: Jared . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2012 2:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Eastern Pennsylvania 2012 Multi-District History and Archives Gathering will begin with registration 8-9 a.m. Saturday August 11 2012: Location: Susquehanna/Swatara Rooms, Myers Hall, Elizabethtown College, Elizabethtown Pennsylvania The Program will begin at 9 a.m. It will end mid-afternoon, or at least by tea time. There will be a continental breakfast buffet and a light buffet lunch will be served. Last year's partial theme was [early] writers and editors in AA; this year's partial theme is [early] women in AA. Contributions/presentations, as you all know, are invited, but let me know soon. This is a Public Meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, co-sponsored by Districts 34, 36, 63, 64, 65 of Area 59 [Eastern Pennsylvania] and by the Lancaster [Pennsylvania] Intergroup Committee. Confidential responses especially may be directed to: histandarch@comcast.net (histandarch at comcast.net) all responses may be directed to me at jaredlobdell@comcast.net (jaredlobdell at comcast.net) or jlobdell54@hotmail.com (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Thanks, Jared IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8513. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA history book on Rogers Burnham From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2012 4:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Charley: Thanks for your notes: I do not know of any source for an audio version of my book. You and I have the opposite problem ... I can't hear well, so I only use e-mails or FAX for communication. If you get resolution, please let know your comments. Best regards, Leselsietwo@msn.com > From: charley92845@gmail.com > > Les, I have a vision problem and get most of my books in audio. I use > Caliber to hear them. Your book will be valuable to me for the original > documents, etc shown, but it would be most helpful if i could hear it. > Do you know if it will be available for reading with Caliber? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8514. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob Cremated? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2012 8:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On 6/11/2012 12:10, B wrote: > > The obituary states "Services will be held Monday at 1 p.m. at St. Paul's Episcopal Church, followed by cremation in Cleveland. Dr. Walter F. Tunks will officiate at the services." Is this information true? Were his ashes then buried at Mount Peace in Akron, or was the plan changed at the last minute? Was the press's information erroneous? > Having attended graveside services in Akron, I know at the very least his name is shown on the marker there, a place many make a pilgrimage to on an annual basis. =============================================== Was Anne cremated, also? I didn't see a reference to her. We can't say he is buried at the gravesite as that doesn't apply to ashes from cremation. Bodies are buried, ashes are interred. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8515. . . . . . . . . . . . Who you see here . . . . From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2012 4:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/06/the-secret-city/100326/> Does photo #5 of this gallery look familiar? Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8516. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hank P. From: mikey_portz . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2012 8:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Howdy, Certainly no man's contributions to A.A. are any less because he relapsed to his malady. Hank Parkhurst certainly had an intricate part in the organization of our fellowship, at Bill's request and because of Hank's vast human resource experience at Standard Oil, did a fine job of writing "To Employers" and certainly did have the intelligence to go down to the local office supply store and buy generic and blank stock certificates. Of course this latter action was said, by many of the NY members, to be a little more for Hank's personal financial gain and ego, then the benefit of A.A. He also was one of a few who proofed every page of the Big Book. It appears in historical documentation that he did a vast majority of what he did with the impute, direct approval and consent of Bill Wilson in conjunction with Dr. Bob. There were also actions he tried to carry out without the consent of Bill, Bob or any of the "first 100." He did not succeed. He also did not succeed in his false accusations to Clarence Snyder that Bill and Bob were stealing A.A. funds. I think all would agree, including Lois Wilson, Dr. Bob and Ruth Hock that as valuable to A.A. as Hank was in his contributions to A.A., he was at many times irrational, self and greed motivated and delusional in the period of time when the "furniture problems" and his being deeply in love with Ruth Hock, his jealousy of Bill, and his inevitable relapsing, occurred. So, you see, there are two sides to every theory of historic actions. Kind regards in fellowship, Mike Portz (702) 501-9551 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8517. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Court card and compulsory attendance at AA/NA meetings From: Charley Bill . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2012 11:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I do not know who has the valid claim to invention of the 'court card.' I do know that I heard Judge Leon Emerson tell how he and Bud McDonald developed a court card in Downey, California, the subsequent furor as some groups objected,the rapid spread of use, the GSO investigation and decision by Bill Wilson that court cards were a good thing and we should cooperate with courts when we can. Leon told us that Bill Wilson told him that he was the originator of the court card. If a qualified historian would like to contact Judge Emerson, let me know and I'll ask his permission to give you his address, etc. He lives in Huntington Beach, California and he has some great WW II sea stories, As with all WW II vets time is very important! P.S. Sherry, sounds like some of that great Texas AA working for you. I came to the Fellowship through the Navy's Dry Dock Program in March of 68 and still attend weekly meetings of the Icebreakers Group. It took me five years to get it, so my sobriety dates from June 74. It's a wonderful life. Looking forward to the International in Atlanta. Hope to see you there if my Alzheimer's doesn't get too bad' On the court card issue, about five years ago the equivalent of the supreme court of New York held that a prisoner could not be denied conjugal visits because he didn't attend AA or NA. The court held that AA was a a religion and to require or coerce people to attend was messing with the separation of religion from the state. Since then, the last I heard, the highest courts of five states have so ruled. It could therefore be argued that until the Supreme Court of the US rules that AA is not a religion, we should not be using court cards at all but we still do in many places. There would be great danger in seeking such a ruling from the Supremes. They might agree with the judges in New York. When we try to make AA resemble a religion that creates the problem. - - - - > From: "hartsell" hartsell@etex.net> > (hartsell at etex.net) > > In 1968 I attended The Top O' Texas Roundup, an AA get-together in > Amarillo, Texas and the Saturday night speaker was a Judge from > Chicago who "purportedly" was the first Judge to "Sentence" alcoholic > "miscreants" :-) to attend AA and provide proof of attendance. Of > course since then I learned of a California Judge who also claims the > same -- I have no clue re validity of either claim, but although I > resisted signing them initially, I just finished attending a small > meeting where they were submitted AND signed. > > Sherry C. H., alive in Northeast Texas and sober by God's grace since > 12-28-67 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8518. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Court card and compulsory attendance at AA/NA meetings From: Mike D . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2012 9:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all, I generally lurk and enjoy your experience, work and insight, so thank you all. I have never seen the following quote: "Bill W said that most of us have come to the conclusion that the groups exist for those that do not yet know there is a way out." Where can I find this quote? Thanks again, Mike - - - - > From: Baileygc23@... > (Baileygc23 at aol.com) > > How one works with newcomers is his own business. Groups may refuse to sign slips, but they should not force their members to not sign slips. AA says there is freedom of thought and action in AA. So much today is forcing others to do what the majority wants and ignoring the rights of the minority. > > Bill W said that most of us have come to the conclusion that the groups exist for those that do not yet know there is a way out. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8519. . . . . . . . . . . . Interesting books - new Bishop of Books collection From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2012 5:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The new Bishop of Books collection is worth browsing through. I suspect that most of us will find one or two items at least, that we did not know existed, and that will point us to a historical resource we did not know about, or an area of AA history that we did not know existed, or a point of view or approach of which we were not aware. http://www.thebishopofbooks.com/Intro%20to%20Book%20and%20Collection.htm http://www.thebishopofbooks.com/book%20collection%20pg%201.htm http://www.thebishopofbooks.com/book%20collection%20pg%202.htm and so on and so forth -- five pages in all. HERE ARE A COUPLE OF TITLES for example. I don't know what is in the books, but the titles alone caught my eye: Richard Stivers Hair of the Dog: Irish Drinking and Its American Stereotype Persecuted in their homeland by the English, the Irish were dogged in their adopted country, by a reputation for drunkenness and alcoholism that was fabricated ... by the English. When I first opened this remarkable book and discovered its patently erroneous thesis, I said to myself, "Stivers will never convince me that he's right". When I finished it, I set the book down gently and said, He's convinced me: he's right!" ... Hair of the Dog is a pioneer work in research on alcohol abuse, stereotyping, and Ireland. It demolishes myths in all three areas, no small feat for a sociological monograph. John Rudman, M.D. Bill W. Meets Freud in Heaven: More Will Be Revealed. Realistic Fiction: Over 80 years ago, Freud revealed that human beings were bound by two primal forces (life instinct and death instinct); "human nature" resulted from the interaction of these two forces. However, the more powerful, regressive--death instinct--thwarted individuals (and humanity) from ever reaching their goals--"it was the ultimate cause of all the conflicts in the mind." Freud died, failing to modify the imbalance between the opposing drives. Because he left this pessimistic message-- the truth of the nature of these instincts has been buried in the literature: until now! Bill W. saved the lives of millions of alcoholics who otherwise had a sentence of jails, insanity or death-this was a miracle of the 20th century; Bill W. brought back the idea that people could seek God on their own; unbeknownst to many, this opened the door to the New Age. Bill W., however, continued to search for more answers, he was not satisfied with himself; there needed to be 'emotional sobriety after the "booze" cure.' Even after AA was established, he suffered from a 10-year depression. Arriving in Heaven, Bill realizes that his "self", his identity, are in his soul, and the old feelings and issues have returned. The concept of "soul" has always been elusive. It is relegated to the term spirit--an ephemeral, non-definable substance. Heraclitus (Greek Philosopher) said, "The soul of man is a far country, which cannot be approached or explored." Perhaps the time for this has come. The author was formerly a psychiatrist and an Assistant Clinical Professor, Stanford Medical School; there he taught the course entitled Spirituality and Psychiatry. This book is one of a series, revealing the issues between the soul and human nature. THERE ARE ALSO HISTORICAL RESOURCES of which you may or may not know. I did not know about the first two here, but did know about the third (which is the closest thing we've got right now to a biography of a major figure from the second generation of AA authors: Public Talks of Bill Wilson, a Chronological List = compiled by the late Nell Wing, AA's first Archivist. Seven FULL pages listing over 200 recordings of Bill's talks from 1947 to 1970 all over the U.S. BILL WILSON & the VITAMIN B-3 THERAPY. The Bishop of Books, Wheeling, WV, June, 1993. The original 1965, 1968, & 1971 "Communications to AA's Physicians," edited by Bill W. This was Bill W.'s last major project before he died in 1971. Value of B-3 (Niacin) for drunks, its efficacy in preventing the shakes & DTs, healing nerves, and other medical research. Schizophrenics Anonymous was founded as a result of this research! Many doctors (some AA members) participated in this 6 year project with Bill W. Aldous Huxley had introduced Bill W. to two psychiatrists researching the biochemistry of alcoholism as well as schizophrenia. Bill and a larger group of doctors issued three "communications" updating this research that niacin helped alcoholics and schizophrenics as well as those suffering from both illnesses. Oldtimers in AA regularly took B-3. DVD disk: Reflections: Ernie Kurtz, Ph.D. on the History of A.A., Spirituality, Shame and Storytelling - - - with Bill White. Great Lakes ATTC pub. AND ALTHOUGH IT IS NOT A.A. HISTORY, I think that an AA historian needs to know just a little about Narcotics Anonymous history, to keep from saying dumb things about certain aspects of AA history: Bob Stone My Years with Narcotics Anonymous. Hulon Pendleton Publishing, L.L.C., 1997, First edition, pb, 541pp. Fine. As near to a real history of NA as possible, this was written by a non-addict, a non-member of NA, who served as NA's World Service Office Executive Director for nine years. He covers the early history of NA in 1953 California as well as earlier 1940s similar beginnings in Lexington, KY, and New York City. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8520. . . . . . . . . . . . Some other interesting books - new Bishop of Books collection From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2012 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Other interesting books - new Bishop of Books collection I found these additional interesting books when I started browsing through the new Bishop of Books collection, which I thought worthy of calling to your attention. http://www.thebishopofbooks.com/Intro%20to%20Book%20and%20Collection.htm http://www.thebishopofbooks.com/book%20collection%20pg%201.htm http://www.thebishopofbooks.com/book%20collection%20pg%202.htm and so on and so forth -- five pages in all. ____________________________________________ THE PSYCHIATRIST VICTOR FRANKL (1905-1997), a survivor of the Nazi concentration camps, wrote a very famous book in 1946 called Man's Search for Meaning. What Charlie Bishop has in his collection is a lesser known work, The Unconscious God, which ought to have special meaning for AA people. Frankl here criticizes Freud, Adler, and Jung all three and defends the idea of humanity's UNCONSCIOUS SPIRITUALITY AND AWARENESS OF THE GOD WITHIN. In AA circles, we would describe this as the inner awareness of the true Higher Power and the difference between right and wrong, which the Big Book talks about so much. > > I had the privilege of hearing Frankl > > speak on one occasion when I was a young > > graduate student. -- Glenn Chesnut Frankl, Viktor E., M.D., The Unconscious God. The distinguished Austrian psychiatrist examines the essential reality and significance of mankind's unconscious spirituality and awareness of the God within and the interrelationship between psychotherapy and theology. This book is divided in two parts: the first part consists of several lecture given to a small group of Austrian intellectual in the early 50s, as Frankl was just starting to develop his theory of 'logotherapy, or 'existential analysis' and the second part, written especially for the American edition of the book, explores the research and developments in logotherapy from the 50s until 1975, when the book was first published in the United States. In the lecture part of the book Frankl explores the spiritual unconsciousness, the existential analysis of dreams and conscience, the transcendental quality of conscience, which forms the foundation of logotherapy, just as pleasure forms the foundation of Freud's psychoanalysis, and self-esteem and inferiority forms the foundation of Adler's individual psychology. Frankl criticizes both Freud's and Adler's approach to psychotherapy, exposing their errors and pointing where logotherapy has more advanced explanations, but he also takes a hit at Jung, and his theories of collective unconsciousness, archetypes, etc. accusing Jung that by collectivizing these phenomena he is excluding the 'human' in them, and dehumanizes them, thes precluding the individual subjects of psychotherapy from embracing them. Frankl shows that logotherapy is very individual and human, and tries to find the motives of people's behaviors within the people themselves, and their need for spirituality, for personal religiousness, and not imposed on them from without by some genetic code, or some dispersonal, omnipresent collective unconsciousness. The last of the lectures concerns the relationship of logotherapy and theology, where Frankl presents a view that they not only do not have to be mutually exclusive, but can complement each other, and bring a holistic benefit to the patient and his worldview. In the second part of the book Frankl presents all the research and results obtained in logotherapy in the score or so years between the original lectures and the publication of the American edition of the book. The text is ripe with quotations form scientific publications and can be difficult to read at times because of its technical nature. However the first part of the book presents a very concise and clear, if somewhat unfinished, exposition of the relationship between logotherapy and the spiritual. ____________________________________________ A COUPLE OF OTHER BOOKS ON CHARLIE'S LIST remind us that we have to read the works of E. M. Jellinek and Howard W. Haggard before we can even begin to speak knowledgeably about the disputes over the disease concept of alcoholism during the early AA period: Howard W. Haggard and E. M. Jellinek, Alcohol Explored (1942) and E. M. Jellinek, The Disease Concept of Alcoholism (1960). ____________________________________________ AS A REMINDER THAT WE MUST NOT confine AA to Christianized versions alone, Charlie has seven very good books on the Jewish interpretation of AA in his collection, plus a book on the Buddhist interpretation of AA: Six books by Rabbi Abraham Twerski, M.D. -- a Jewish spirituality for twelve-step recovery -- plus Rabbi Kerry M. Olitzky & Stuart A. Copans, M.D., Twelve Jewish Steps to Recovery. Laura S., 12 Steps on Buddha's Path: Bill, Buddha, and We, A Spiritual Journey of Recovery ____________________________________________ ALSO A REMINDER THAT SOME OF THE OLD-FASHIONED PROTESTANT FUNDAMENTALIST theories about alcoholism and its treatment, which viewed it as a sin just like fornication, homosexuality, and robbing banks, did not always fit easily with the true spirit of the AA Big Book: Alcoholism or Drunkenness: Sin or Disease? (Four States Christian Mission, 198?) Anthology with essays by Billy Sunday, Jimmy Swaggart, other religious figures. Bible references throughout, views alcoholism as sin. Compiled and edited by James M. Resh. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8521. . . . . . . . . . . . National AA Archives Workshop - Oct 4-7, 2012 - Cocoa Beach From: starshine1943 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/1/2012 9:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The National AA Archives Workshop will be held October 4-7, 2012 in Cocoa Beach Florida. The new Bill W film will be viewed on Friday PM and the producers will be available for questions and answers. There will be archives displays from all over the United States, presentations on preserving items and, speakers of interest to archivists. The program and registration are available at: http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/2012/index.htm or email naw2012@yahoo.com> (naw2012 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8522. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob Cremated? From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2012 8:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I stand corrected on the technical terminology. Thanks for the enlightenment. I hope my ashes are scattered some day. I want to be everywhere ... ego at work? - - - - From: cometkazie1@cox.net > > Were his ashes then buried at Mount Peace in Akron, or was the plan changed at the last minute? Was the press's information erroneous? We can't say he is buried at the gravesite as that doesn't apply to ashes from cremation. Bodies are buried, ashes are interred. Tommy H in Danville IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8523. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photos of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves From: anon2012xx . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2012 3:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII here is some new info Cornell, Francis Shepard (1899-1985) — also known as F. Shepard Cornell — of Greenwich, Fairfield County, Conn.; Manhattan, New York County, N.Y.; Milwaukee, Milwaukee County, Wis.; Charlottesville, Va. Born in Montclair, Essex County, N.J., July 13, 1899. Son of George Birdsall Cornell (c.1856-1929) and Eleanor (Jackson) Cornell (died 1929). Republican. Stockbroker; candidate for U.S. Representative from New York 22nd District, 1940; general manager, Kankakee Works of the A.O. Smith Corporation, manufacturers of water heaters. Episcopalian. Member, Psi Upsilon; Rotary. Died in September, 1985 (age 86 years, 0 days). Burial location unknown. Relatives: Son of George Birdsall Cornell (c.1856-1929) and Eleanor (Jackson) Cornell (died 1929); married, February 28, 1923, to Helen Leigh Best; married, May 18, 1933, to Nathalie Lee Laimbeer (divorced); married, July 27, 1943, to Lucille Fraser. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Stonebraker" wrote: > > I am trying to find pictures of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, but am having no luck in the finding any. Any photos will be much appreciated. Thanks! > > Bob Stonebraker rstonebraker212@comcast.net> > (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8524. . . . . . . . . . . . Planned (in effect) merger of NIAAA and NIDA From: Ron Roizen . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2012 12:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I wonder if aa-history-lovers list members would care to offer comments on the planned (in effect) merger of NIAAA and NIDA into a single "National Institute of Substance Use and Addiction Disorders" in 2014? (WARNING: I may make use of your thoughts in a commentary!) Thanks. Ron Please recall that the 1969 Hughes hearings that preceded the launching of NIAAA were very much a recovery movement affair. NIAAA, at that point, was very much the recovery movement's baby. I wrote, for example, in part one of my merger post at Points as follows: "NIAAA's creation was the product of a constituency-driven movement to modernize American attitudes toward alcoholism and, beyond that, to enhance the nation's awareness of and substantially enlarge its response capacity with respect to a massive putative 'hidden alcoholism' problem lurking unrecognized in our population." I was pretty much aware that the scheduled NIAAA/NIDA merger would have been a nonstory for most list members, even those who commanded enough history to know NIAAA's original meanings and purposes for the movement. But, and of course, having such an opinion is different from actually having some sort of evidence that even old-guard AA's would have little interest in the merger. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8525. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bishop of Books collection - the one on Irish Drinking From: Baileygc23@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2012 5:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yeah, even fooled the police. They used to have the paddy wagon down to Johnny Devilins in Charlestown Mass on Saturday night in the forties. - - - - Original message: The new Bishop of Books collection is worth browsing through. I suspect that most of us will find one or two items at least, that we did not know existed, and that will point us to a historical resource we did not know about .... Richard Stivers, Hair of the Dog: Irish Drinking and Its American Stereotype. Persecuted in their homeland by the English, the Irish were dogged in their adopted country, by a reputation for drunkenness and alcoholism that was fabricated ... by the English. When I first opened this remarkable book and discovered its patently erroneous thesis, I said to myself, "Stivers will never convince me that he's right". When I finished it, I set the book down gently and said, He's convinced me: he's right!" ... Hair of the Dog is a pioneer work in research on alcohol abuse, stereotyping, and Ireland. It demolishes myths in all three areas, no small feat for a sociological monograph. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8526. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholics in the U.S. - celebrate Independence from Alcoholism From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2012 10:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A message for all friends of Bill in the U.S. Do something different this 4th of July Independence Day. Take the time to thank an old timer - their fight for independence from alcoholism might have been just the example you learned from. This year, my father-in-law, at age 93, celebrated 50 years of continuous sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous on July 1. The man, Slim B., is a pioneer in his own right: a WW II veteran, widower, and father of 7 from two marriages, he was employed as a tool and die maker for General Motors in Flint, Michigan when he found sobriety until he retired in 1985, and he was asked early on by plant management to encourage other problem drinkers to try the AA path he had successfully taken. This was 1962, and from his anonymous service to the drunks on the payroll who got sober and stayed sober, GM eventually created and refined its Employee Assistance Program (EAP). The EAP still works today but his name is nowhere to be found in its records - Slim would have it no other way. Up in the "Thumb" of Michigan, his AA life, example, and presence is well known. In an interview I conducted when we first met eight years ago, he was characteristically nonplussed and humble about the way people came into AA in the early 60s and the methods of success with carrying the message - sometimes confrontational but always inviting and living by example. I have the tape and couldn't find the Area 32 archivist to contribute it to its AA Archives. Regardless, it's ready for mailing someday. My wife (34 years sober) and I (26 years sober) called him on Sunday and congratulated him. I could sense his smile as he said "well, it's still a one day at a time deal." Best regards to all, Rick T., Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8527. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photos of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves From: J. Lobdell . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2012 10:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here's a write-up on Shep in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY Vol. 3 no. 8 online[feed into search engine Brown University Library/Kirk Collection/CASQ: PROGRESS REPORT: THE MESSENGERS TO EBBY: SHEP C. (SUMMARY) We begin with Cebra’s reminiscence of the original coming together of the three messengers to Ebby, for what it shows about the relationship of the three, and particularly the role played by Shep C. Cebra first saw Rowland at a party at Cebra’s parents’ house in Bennington in the summer of 1934. Shortly thereafter (perhaps in July) Cebra and his father had an argument, with Cebra’s father saying something to the effect of “Bennington is too small for both of us,” whereupon Cebra walked out of his office, without even locking the door, and started walking toward Williamstown (Massachusetts). After he reached the next city, Rowland drove up, presumably by accident, and asked where he was going. On finding out that he didn’t know, he picked him up and drove him to the house of Professor Philip Marshall Brown, apparently an Oxford Group friend of Rowland’s. They talked and the subject of alcoholism came up – and Rowland and Phil Brown virtually guaranteed that if Cebra followed the principles of the Oxford Group, he wouldn’t drink alcoholically. He became active in the Oxford Group, toned down his drinking, went down to New York and went to OG meetings there, and after returning to what he considered normal drinking, he went back to Vermont, tried to make amends to his parents and follow the Oxford Group principles. After this return to Bennington, he visited Rowland in Glastonbury, and at the same time Shep C. was visiting there. Shep was very active in the Oxford Group. They were swimming in Rowland’s pool, and talking about carrying the Oxford Group message. Ebby came into Cebe’s mind – he had played golf (and had drinks) with Ebby in Manchester – and he decided they should carry the message to Ebby. The chronology of Cebe’s recollections is not entirely clear, but it would appear that this was after Ebby had come up before Cebe’s father in court, and after Cebe and Rowland had gone to Cebe’s father to try to explain the Oxford Group principles to Cebe’s father and to persuade him not to send Ebby to Rattleboro (jail). Cebe’s father apparently said he’d make Rowland and Cebe responsible for Ebby (Rowland was closer in age to Cebe’s father than to Cebe). Cebe recalls that he didn’t know much about alcoholism at this time and he didn’t have the impression that Rowland knew much about it either. Shep and Rowland were skeptical about visiting Ebby (I would guess Rowland wanted to be out of this), but finally Cebe convinced Shep to come with him to Ebby’s house, where they found Ebby on the back veranda, surrounded by bottles, in a filthy suit, holding his head in his hands. So Cebe walks up and says something like, “Hi! Ebby – You having fun?” – to which Ebby responds something like, “Go to Hell!” Cebe answers to the effect that “You don’t have to live like this any more.” They take his (only) suit down to Manchester Center, rout the tailor out (it’s Sunday afternoon), get the suit cleaned, get Ebby cleaned up, take him to a restaurant, and talk to him about the Oxford Group. This was (by Cebe’s guess) in August 1934. [By the way, Cebe’s brother Van recalls Ebby as a friend of Cebe’s, but not of Shep’s, confirming my impression that when Ebby spoke of them both as his old drinking friends, he was, at the very least, exaggerating. In fact, Shep was involved with the Oxford Group early on, back to the days of the Philadelphians meeting at Princeton in the 1920s, and there are letters between Shep and H. Alexander Smith in the Smith Papers at Princeton – and Erdman Harris, who married Shep to Natalie Laimbeer, was with the Philadelphians and the Oxford Group in the early days. A TIME Magazine story (June 15, 1936) on the great Stockbridge (MA) meeting of the Oxford Group in 1936 suggests just how much Shep was in what we might call the Oxford Group swing. “In the green Berkshire Hills of Massachusetts nestle a knot of towns – Lenox, Lee, Stockbridge, Great Barrington – whose natives are hardheaded Yankees, whose summer colonists are sedate, aristocratic New Englanders and Manhattanites. Two of the swankest, most comfortable hotels in the neighborhood are Heaton Hall and the Red Lion Inn at Stockbridge, both owned by Massachusetts' benign, broad-beamed Republican Representative Allen Towner Treadway. Manager of the Red Lion Inn is the Congressman's Yale-educated son, Heaton Ives Treadway, who in the winter runs hotels in Pinehurst, N. C. and Florida…. [This week] in Heaton Hall, the Red Lion Inn and other hostelries in and around Stockbridge were gathered a "team" of 800 Oxford Groupers from all over the world, in whose wake followed some 2,000 paying guests at Dr. Buchman's most ambitious U. S. effort to date, a ‘National Assembly.’ “Tennist Helen Wills Moody spent a week-end in Stockbridge, attended no Group meetings. But one day last week a private railway car rolled into a siding and out popped Clara Bryant Ford, self-effacing wife of Henry Ford. Far from exploited by the Groups, who made clear that she was not identified with their movement, Mrs. Ford quietly attended meetings, lunched with Dr. Buchman and the most important of his followers, beheld a documentary Group film called Bridge Builders. Two days later she departed, thus ending rumors that her husband was to arrive in the company of Harvey Firestone, whose family have been active in Group work. “Other distinguished visitors during the National Assembly: pious Copperman Cleveland Earl Dodge and his pious wife; Emily Newell Blair, writer and Democratic politician; Episcopal Bishop Walter Mitchell of Arizona; Mrs. Henry Noble MacCracken, wife of the president of Vassar College; Mrs. Henry Guggenheim, wife of the onetime Ambassador to Cuba; Mr. and Mrs. F. Shepard C[------], Manhattan socialites; Lord Addington of England; Baroness de Watteville-Berckheim of Paris; Dr. J. E. W. Duys of The Netherlands Parliament; Carl Vrooman, onetime Assistant Secretary of Agriculture; Bernard Hallward, director of the Montreal Star; Herman Hintzen, Rotterdam banker; Eric Bentley, Canadian businessman; W. Farrar Vickers, British businessman; Sir Philip D[-----], of Edinburgh [later founder of British A.A.]. Likewise present were the usual Oxford Group retired generals, admirals, sons and daughters of Anglican bishops, Scandinavian lawyers, reformed Communists, college students, etc., etc.... “‘A supernational network over live wires. A spiritual radiophone in every home. Every last man in America, in every last place in America, in every last situation in America, guided by God’ – Dr. Buchman. ‘Thanks to God for Frank Buchman’ – Loudon Hamilton. This week, after a large post-Assembly meeting in Manhattan's Metropolitan Opera House, Dr. Buchman and two carloads of ‘life-changers’ were to entrain for Cleveland and the first of the two national political conventions at which they planned to submit ‘God-guidance’ planks.” Later Shep was on the Board of Calvary Mission and Sam Shoemaker’s Businessmen’s Luncheon Group; he ran for Congress (as a Republican) in 1940 (losing for the Upper West Side/Harlem seat not too much later occupied for a quarter-century by Adam Clayton Powell); went out to Milwaukee (from which he wrote Bill W. that “they” – “the boys” but not apparently including Shep – would be glad to see him and have him come to a meeting. (He didn’t say “we” for Milwaukee A.A., but “they.”) In fact, we can look more fully at Shep’s subsequent career here, even though we’re missing a few documents I had hoped to have. Francis Shepard C[------] (1899-1985), never (so far as I know) a member of A.A., was from New Jersey and then Long Island and attended Lehigh University, after enlisting in World War I. He was married several times, the first time to (Helen) Leigh Best, by whom he had three children, a son Leigh Best C[------], born 1924 (or 1926), a daughter Leslie C[------], b. 1927 (or 1928), now Leslie C[------] Larson, living in Annapolis MD, and a son Robert Shepard C[------], b. 1930, now living in Troy OH. Bob C[------] worked for a number of years for A. O. Smith, his father’s firm in Milwaukee, though his parents were divorced shortly after his birth. Leigh Best C[------] enlisted in the U. S. Army in 1943 after three years of secondary education: he died in Massachusetts at the age of 49(?) in 1974, in a VA facility. Shep C[------]’s first marriage was announced in the New York Times as follows: “Special to the New York Times, Ormond Beach, Fla., Feb. 28 – ‘Miss Helen Leigh Best, daughter of Leigh Best of 30 East 60th Street, New York, former Vice-President of the American Locomotive Company and Francis Shepard C[------], also of New York, were married in St. James’s Church here this afternoon. The Rev. J. M. McGrath officiated. Miss Best’s father, Frank Hedley, President of the Interborough Rapid Transit Company, Charles R. Elliott and a few other intimate friends witnessed the ceremony.’” Shep C[------]’s second marriage was to Nathalie Lee Laimbeer in New York in 1933 at the home of Richard Whitney, sometime President of the New York Stock Exchange and later convict. The ceremony was conducted by the Rev. Professor Erdman Harris, who was active in the cause of First Century Christianity as a Princeton alumnus at the time of the First Century Christian Fellowship revival at Princeton in 1925, supporter of Frank Buchman, and much later Headmaster of Shadyside Academy in Pittsburgh, at the time Sam Shoemaker was called to Calvary Church, Pittsburgh. Here’s the Times notice: “The marriage of Miss Nathalie Lee Laimbeer to F. Shepard C[------] took place yesterday afternoon at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Richard Whitney, 115 East 73rd Street. Only near relatives and a few close friends were present at the ceremony, performed by the Rev. Erdman Harris, associate professor at the Union Theological Seminary. The bride is the elder daughter of the late Mr. and Mrs. William Laimbeer and sister of Mrs. John R. Fell, Jr., and George M. Laimbeer. She is a granddaughter of the late Mr. and Mrs. Spotswood Schenck and a great-granddaughter of the late Mr. and Mrs. Matthew Morgan of this city. In the absence of her brother, who is on his wedding trip, the bride was given in marriage by her guardian, Lewis Cass Ledyard … Mr. C[------] is the son of the late Mr. and Mrs. George B. C[------] and the brother of Mrs. James B. Tailer. E Rayne Herzog was his best man. After the ceremony, there was a small reception. Mr. C[------] and his bride will sail tomorrow for Bermuda and on their return will live in this city.” (Lewis Cass Ledyard – first Senior, then Junior – was the executor for the estate of Harry Payne Whitney in 1927.) This does not mention that her mother, Nathalie Schenck Laimbeer (d. 1929), was one of the first female bank executives, at Chase National Bank. There is material on Shep in NYC in the 1930s in Dick B’s New Light on Alcoholism: God, Sam Shoemaker, and A.A. (rev. ed., Kihei, Maui: 1999). Entries in the Calvary Parish Register and the Calvary Evangel show that Ebby T. was sponsored (presented to be a communicant) by Shep at the same March 1935 service when Frederick B. was sponsored by Bill W. (New Light, p. 556). Lois remembered years later that in 1935 Bill, Lois, Ebby, and Shep werte “regularly” or “constantly” attending Oxford Group meetings together (Lois Remembers, pp. 91, 98). Shep went to meetings at the Wilson’s house in Fall 1935 (Pass It On, p. 162). But gradually, though he was a member of the Businessmen’s Team, and indeed was still clerk of the vestry at Calvary in 1938, Shep seems to have become separated from the Oxford Group nexus – in fact, Dick B. reports a letter from Sam Shoemaker in 1946 noting that “Shep has been in kind of a spiritual darkness for a long time” (New Light, p. 390). Part of the separation was probably from Shep’s divorce from Nathalie Laimbeer; part doubtless was geographical. In 1943 Shep C. was married to Lucile Frazier (1909-2000). This marriage endured until his death in Charlottesville VA in 1985. Here is his death notice and obituary from the Charlottesville Daily Progress (September 16, 1985): “An Albemarle County man who had been chief operating officer of the A. O. Smith Corp. died of a heart attack Saturday night while driving home from the Unversity of Virginia-VMI football game at Scott Stadium. Albemarle County police said Francis S. C[------], 86, a retired Colonel with the U. S. Air Force, died moments before his 1983 Buick ran off of West Leigh Drive at 9:13 p.m., and struck a tree. Authorities said Lucile C[------], C[------] ’s wife, grabbed and turned the steering wheel of the car to avoid oncoming traffic. Mrs. C[------] suffered minor injuries in the crash and was treated and released at UVa Hospital. “C[------], a resident of West Leigh Drive, was serving on the board of directors of Figgie International, a Richmond-based corporation, and had served as the chief operating officer of A. O. Smith Corp. after his retirement from the Air Force. The Smith Corporation produced goods worth more than $350 million annually in eleven states and employed more than 13,000 persons while C[------] was its chief operating officer. “C[------] had been co-chairman of the industrial gifts division of the Greater Marquette University program that raised more than $15 million. He also was a past director of the Marquette Medical School, member of the council of the Graduate School at the University of Chicago, and was active in many business and civic organizations. He was awarded an honorary doctor of laws degree by Carroll College for his civic service, and was a graduate of Lehigh University, with a degree in metallurgy. “Locally, C[------] was a member of St. Paul’s Episcopal Church in Ivy, the Farmington Country Club, Redlands Club, and the Virginia Student Aid Foundation. He is survived by his wife, two children, seven grandchildren, and two great-grandchildren.” But this, of course, was far into the future in the days of Shep C. in and before the Oxford Group. In 1930 Shep and (Helen) Leigh C. lived in Greenwich CT. In the 1930s, with his second marriage, Shep was in NYC, and indeed in 1940 ran for Congress from NY’s 22nd District (Upper Manhattan/Harlem), losing to the (white) Democrat who four years later was replaced by Adam Clayton Powell. In 1943 (officially) and until 1949 Shep was in Milwaukee, as executive assistant to the president of A. O. Smith, but in fact he was a stateside Lt. Col. (USAAF) 1943-46. In 1949-53 he was in Kankakee, Illinois, with a division of A. O. Smith, and then back to Milwaukee as A. O. Smith’s executive vice president until his retirement in 1964. While he was in Milwaukee, my father went to Madison to be Director of Stock Investments for the State of Wisconsin Investment Board, and while visiting there I became associated with Insight & Outlook, the magazine of the University of Wisconsin Conservative Club. A. O. Smith was a corporate sponsor of (and advertiser in) Insight & Outlook, and the person responsible was Mr. C[------]. At that time his Commencement Address at Carroll College (I think in 1959), “A Matter of Responsibility,” was available as a pamphlet there and elsewhere in Conservative circles, but I no longer have a copy and have been unable to track one down. Even his friend Bill Grede’s papers at Madison are missing any of his copies, and there are none at Carroll. He was a strong defender of the free-enterprise system (as, I believe, was the Oxford Group generally). When he became associated with Figgie International (which owned American-La France, the fire equipment manufacturer), he began to spread the hook-and-ladder gospel to his friends in the Wisconsin business community – so much so that I recall thinking American-La France was a Wisconsin company. I believe the Wisconsin Investment Board bought Figgie shares, and I have a picture in my mind, whether real (from a Milwaukee Circus Parade) or imagined (from my father’s conversation) of Mr. C[------] driving a classic American-La France “fire engine” in the Parade. Real or imagined, it was in tune with his tremendous enthusiasms. (I recall hearing how, when A. O. Smith and Dow Chemical formed a joint venture, and were seeking a name, Mr. C[------] said there was but one name possible: “Wall Street has Dow-Jones – we’ll have Dow-Smith.” When he came to Charlottesville, or rather to Esmont, in southernmost Albermarle County, Virgina, actually before retirement from Smith in August of 1964, he immediately set up a feeder calf operation at Esmont House. A reporter for the Daily Progress interviewed Mr. and Mrs. C. (Daily Progress, September 24, 1964): “Were the Cornells country dwellers and livestock handlers in Wisconsin? Neither had ever lived on a farm or raised cattle before, Mrs. C[------] said. And how did they come to settle in Albemarle County? The distaff half of the partnership said her husband, as a member of the Board of Directors of the U. S. Chamber of Commerce, made frequent trips to Washington, D.C. Mrs. C[------] usually accompanied him. Business attended to, the couple would come to the Farmington Country Club for golf and relaxation and thus they came to know Charlottesville and Albemarle County.” The Esmont operation was still going in March 1966 (Daily Progress, March 25, 1966, “Locating Industry Is 2-Way Street [Says Retired Esmont Industrialist]” –reporting on a speech by Francis S. C[------], “who played an important part in bringing the A. O. Smith Corporation plant to Charlottesville in 1964”). When I knew Esmont House in the 1970s it was the home of Roger Lea MacBride, erstwhile Libertarian elector (1972) and candidate (1976). One of the characteristics that appears to link Cebe, Shep, Bill W., Rowland, and possibly even Ebby is tremendous initial enthusiasm as well as wide range of interests – until Rowland burned out (and suffered the shock of his son’s death in World War II), until Cebe settled down with his Lucette, until Bill concentrated on AA (but that didn’t stop his from embracing Niacin and experimenting with LSD – both of which were, however, connected with the same fight against alcoholism), until Ebby burned out completely – but Shep kept on, enthusiastic to the last. (If you look at the picture in the Daily Progress in 1966, you will, by the way, see his highly polished shoes with his country clothes: I think it characteristic.) As soon as we have the additional information we have been seeking on Shep, we will print that information as a final installment in our “Messengers to Ebby.” In the meantime, we have been in touch with the current F. S. C[------] Professor of Entrepreneurship at the University of Virginia, only to be told that they not only do not have a copy of his talk, “A Matter of Responsibility,” but they do not really know much about him, and no one there recalls any particular contact with him – the Professorship having been endowed in his honor by a UVa alumnus after Mr. C[------]’s death, and Mr. C[------] having had very little contact with the University. Oddly, the distinguished teacher among the messengers was neither the man whose grandfather and cousins were on the faculty at Yale (Rowland) nor the man who had a professorship established in his honor (Shep), but Cebe: a Columbia alumnus (Class of 1951), Jay Sefer, recalled him as one of the three great instructors he had at Columbia – Joseph Wood Krutch, Moses Hadas, and Cebra Q. G[-----]. _______________________________________________ > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 > Subject: Re: Photos of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves > > here is some new info > > Cornell, Francis Shepard (1899-1985) — also known as F. Shepard Cornell — of Greenwich, Fairfield County, Conn.; Manhattan, New York County, N.Y.; Milwaukee, Milwaukee County, Wis.; Charlottesville, Va. Born in Montclair, Essex County, N.J., July 13, 1899. Son of George Birdsall Cornell (c.1856-1929) and Eleanor (Jackson) Cornell (died 1929). Republican. Stockbroker; candidate for U.S. Representative from New York 22nd District, 1940; general manager, Kankakee Works of the A.O. Smith Corporation, manufacturers of water heaters. Episcopalian. Member, Psi Upsilon; Rotary. Died in September, 1985 (age 86 years, 0 days). Burial location unknown. > > Relatives: Son of George Birdsall Cornell (c.1856-1929) and Eleanor (Jackson) Cornell (died 1929); married, February 28, 1923, to Helen Leigh Best; married, May 18, 1933, to Nathalie Lee Laimbeer (divorced); married, July 27, 1943, to Lucille Fraser. > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Stonebraker" wrote: > > > > I am trying to find pictures of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, but am having no luck in the finding any. Any photos will be much appreciated. Thanks! > > > > Bob Stonebraker rstonebraker212@comcast.net> > > (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8528. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Planned (in effect) merger of NIAAA and NIDA From: Joseph Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2012 1:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No interest IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8529. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hank P. From: brian koch . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2012 7:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would agree on the two sides, as I think all humans possess. For me the continued spiritual quest can enhance the one side, while keeping the "self" side at bay, somewhat. This illness manifests so insidiously. On an aside note, I had the privilege of meeting Hank's granddaughter this past weekend. She lives quite close to us. As can be seen by the historical dates, she never met her grandfather. As a matter of fact her father and her future mother had not even met yet when he passed. Her father made very little mention of his father over the years. He did tell her he had "quite a personality." I suspect Hank's defects of character and his drinking made him somewhat of a sensitive subject with his son. She was amused by the furniture story, saying it was in keeping with the little she did know. Unfortunately she had no information to share regarding possible burial sites or memorial stones. She said, knowing the family, she would tend to believe he was cremated and scattered, as opposed to having ashes buried and/or a memorial stone placed. I was able to thank her family for his efforts in those early days. She did share that she respected what AA did for people, but in the Parkhurst's case it did not translate to the family (all our affairs?). It was a wonderful experience from an historical perspective. I am blessed to have met her. Be well friends. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8530. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hank P. From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2012 4:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Chuck Parkhurst and Shakey Mike - - - - "Chuck Parkhurst" ineedpage63@cox.net> (ineedpage63 at cox.net) Most AA members I have met (myself included) occasionally apply to the below: ..... irrational, self and greed motivated and delusional in the period of time ..... Hank's contributions to AA cannot be denied ....... period. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst - - - - From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Mikey, I was wondering if you could elaborate ,for the AA History Lover's, "the actions that Hank took without the approval of Bill, Bob or any of the "first 100" other than the two you posted: 1. stock and 2. lying to Cleveland AA. Ruth was a personal matter between the two of them or three of them if you include Bill; nothing to do with AA. You say "He did not succeed." In what did he not succeed? The stock deal had Bill's approval.His relationship with Dutch (Ruth Hock) was over. Hank blamed Bill for the split-up. Remember that he is now drinking (Sept. 39). The furniture and subsequent stock buyback of Hank's 1/3 ownership of Works for $200 dollars even leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Hank owned 200 shares at $25 per share ($5000 plus the furniture for $200.00 He was taken. Hank showed up after a run as described as "broke and very shaky". Hank agreed to the 200 dollars. Draw your own conclusions. Not so long after the trustees turned around and gave Bill the same royalty deal that they had given Doc. (Doc never got the money because Bill needed it to keep the NY office up and running.) Hank got nothing. At that time no one was getting rich on book royalties but big book sales were increasing. Do you really think Bill would take advantage of a "delusional Hank P? I believe Hank went there to get money to continue on his spree. He was Jonesing for a drink.Bill had been his partner and friend but I am sure (my opinion) that he wanted him out of the picture as a wet drunk or to come back to AA sober. As a alkie in his cups. He grabbed the money and I am sure he went to Cleveland telling tales of money making by Bill with royalties flowing in and Rockefeller money by the bags full. Bill on his trip to Cleveland, speaking with Dr Bob didn't just happen to have "a certified audit of all our affairs from the beginning' with him. Bill made $55 a week then . It was quite a lot of money for the time. Do you think he mentioned buying all of Hanks stock plus the furniture for 4% of its value to the Cleveland crowd? This was an action Bill made without consulting Dr Bob or the trustees. I think that the Heirs of Hank P may have a case for getting royalties from book profits since their father only made 4% of the stocks value. Is there a stock attorney in the AAHL group? My posting, by the way, was not a "theory of Historic actions." AAHL and AA's history should always be documented and factual. There have been postings on this subject previously on AAHL, by historians quite more qualified than myself. I was commenting on a post as I am here. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa. Hope to see you all at Cocoa Beach for the NAAAW "Passing It On" Oct 4-7 2012. And at Multi district History & Archive event Sat Aug 11, 2012 @ Elizabethtown PA. This year's theme "Early Women in AA." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8531. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Court card and compulsory attendance at AA/NA meetings From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2012 10:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group, In 2003, when I was the Archivist for Area 9 in Southern California, Bud McDonald was one of the longtimes on a panel for our Heritage Day event. He talked about how he and Judge Emerson creating the court card used in SoCal. He also gave me the following outline about the creation of the court card. My notes has Bud saying they started sometime in 1966. Bud claimed they created the very first court card, but that can be debatable. He even showed me one of the original cards. It read: "The bearer has attended a regular meeting of AA/NA, clean, sober and stayed the full meeting" Date: Group: Hope you enjoy Charles from Wisconsin .............................................. AA COURT CARD A. USE & NECESSITY Alcoholics Anonymous attendance is the best and most effective method of sobriety ever created. It is an introduction to a group of good people meeting together to share their strength hope and experiences to assist themselves and others to living a clean and sober life, law abiding and responsible as citizens. 1. AA is probably responsible for 90% or more of all sobrieties. 1. AA Court Card was created to verify attendance at AA meetings and see that the Judge's order is carried out. i. When they are still drinking or using alcohol or drugs they are incapable of keeping promises to a judge or anyone else. ii. The writer has never found a better way to see that defendants in his court would attend these meetings than the AA Court card. He received promises for years and months to attend but few were ever found to attend. iii. There is no membership list or record of attendance at a meeting of this voluntary organization. Judges, Probation, Parole officers and employers have found the AA Court card very useful in verifying attendance at AA. The more meetings they attend the better they get in every area of their life. iv. The writer and Bud McDonald created this card together. (Bud now has over 49 years of grateful sobriety) v. If the Judge can keep a person sober and clean in any way, the less likely they will be repeating crimes against society such as driving under the influence, domestic violence, larceny and theft, as well as other crimes. vi. AA costs nothing. There are no due or fees. There are no officers, professionals, or superiors supervising the attendance or sobriety. It is a voluntary organization of men and women who meet together about once per week to exchange their strength and hope and experiences to life one day at a time sober and clean. vii. Each member will gratefully give freely of their time to assist their fellow alcoholics to stay clean and sober. They often will go to any length to assist another in their sobriety. viii. They have a custom of sponsorship that is unique. It is indescribable. Like a big brother or big sister, teacher and mentor, advisor and good friend all rolled up in one. It is often a very close relationship going on for months or years. 3. A practicing alcoholic finds it very difficult to survive day-by-day, hour-by-hour. They have often lost their job, family, and friends because of their addiction. If they still have them, they are often on a strained relationship with all significant others. AA becomes a family of friends ever helpful to one another. PRACTICAL USE OF THE AA COURT CARD 1. The card was created in the mid 1960s in an effort to verify attendance at AA, a voluntary organization. 2. I order the attendance at AA by a probation type of sentence. My clerk or courtroom Bailiff gives the card to the defendant with his name and case number on the card, usually using his first name and initial to assist in his anonymity. 3. Defendant is given a date to return to court (or to a probation person) on a day certain usually about a month or so away. They are ordered to return to the court or probation officer on a periodic basis. I like one month away for the first report. As they become more compliant and seem to be doing better by attendance at more meetings than required, I lengthen the reporting period accordingly. 4. He is directed to attend AA meetings and get the Secretary or meeting leader to sign or initial their card and return with it to the courtroom or reporting point. 5. The card can be used for verifying attendance at classes or domestic violence or psychological therapy sessions. 6. My prototype card has 15 lines on the card and can be used and filed in court file if it is practical or necessary to do so. 7. It calls for the name of the meeting, date and secretary's name or initials. 8. The Secretaries usually pick up the cards at the beginning or have them dropped in the basket passed around for the 7th tradition contribution and signed while the meeting is going on. The defendants then pick up the cards at the end of the meeting from the secretary's table. a. This seems to encourage the attendees to come at the beginning of the meeting, stay for the meeting and meet other people at the end. b. Each secretary can do it as they wish. AA is a voluntary organization and the judge has no authority to dictate how it shall be done. 9. The Judge can easily detect forgeries by looking at the card. If it is all signed at the same pen or pencil, same surface, uniform and looks unused or unwrinkled it generally is a phony. I have found them easy to spot over the years. 10. I react to a forged card in various ways, depending upon the defendant and the circumstances of the forgery and sometimes the type of crime, which brings him or her under the jurisdiction of the court. a. If I have a courtroom full of people reporting, I sometimes will give the forger two or three days in jail. I don't like jail generally because it is expensive and cumbersome to the system. I try to find more practical and effective solutions. b. Sometimes I will give a person an order to attend every night for 30 or 60 days (for repeaters). Sometimes I will request them to bring a sponsor in with them. Sometimes I will require an educated person to bring me a one-page review of the first three chapters of the AA big book or the first three traditions in the 12 and 12 book of Steps & Traditions. I work on a case-by-case basis. c. I try never to over react to an addict's transgressions. They are addicts and are still practicing their diseased condition. Lying and cheating is a symptom of their condition. They are just trying to feel good, get along and survive day by day. Punishment may make me feel like I am doing my job for society but it probably will do them more harm than good. No two addicts are alike and they cannot all be treated the same with any practical effectiveness. d. Court cards are easy to file. No particular form is required or always used. The original form is still being generally used. Some courts just print a letter size sheet and give them to the alcoholic or addict. They are cumbersome and get soiled and destroyed easily and seemingly easily lost. The cards easily fit in a man's shirt pocket. We printed them green originally because that was the left over stock the printer had from another completed job when he volunteered to print up the first thousand back in the mid sixties. SOME DOs AND DON'TS IN USE OF COURT CARD A. Never direct probationers to go to a particular AA meeting. When too many "newbe" come into an old AA meeting, resentments develop from some of the old timers who no longer feel comfortable with so many new young people around leave and go to other meetings. The upside is that many of those with resentment, a big book and a coffee pot go out and form a new meeting. (Meetings in Downey, a city of 90,000, in the suburbs of Los Angeles, CA. went from three meetings per week to about 40 in three years) B. Never ask an AA to go to a meeting and take role or spy on others. What takes place at the meeting must stay there and that includes whether a particular person was there or not. C. Never try to tell an AA secretary how to run their meeting or how they collect and sign the court cards. Most of the secretaries now say, " send me all you've got". The people are coming in, sobering up and staying. Bud will often ask people at an AA meeting how many came in initially carrying a court card. He reports that sometimes half the hands will go up. D. Los Angeles general office secretary sent out a memo to all the Secretaries several years ago which suggested that they pick up the cards, sign them during the meeting and return them at the end of the meeting. This encourages them to stay the full meeting and receive some of the advantages thereof. E. Never ask a Secretary to certify or guarantee the sobriety of a person. Members of the fellowship will take care of that. They seem to flock around the person and try to help in any way they can. AA HAS BEEN EXPREMELY COOPERATIVE F. Originally the fellowship was upset. This was a voluntary organization and here I, an outsider, not even a member of the fellowship forcing AA attendance. The Southern California groups representative, one Cliff W. (who later became a dear friend) was the elected Panelists to the General Service Office in NY came to visit me to discuss the matter informally of the court card in my chambers. We kicked around the various ramifications. He agreed that AA was large and powerful at that time (mid sixties) and no matter what I did it probably would not hurt AA. We finally resolved that they could run AA as usual and I could run my courtroom as I saw fit and within the purview of my duties. We were both sure that we could get along all right. AA was willing to help in any way. I remember he commented that in one way or another everybody was "forced" to come into AA, whether family, doctor, employer or just by being sick and tired of being sick and tired. G. Some of the secretaries became quite upset and wrote Bill W. the co-founder of AA in New York. He in turn wrote a letter to the central office of AA in Los Angeles and asked them to investigate this situation and write him their observations. H. I spent an evening with a committee appointed by the secretary of the AA Los Angeles Central Office. These were all strangers to me and I felt a little uncomfortable. I wanted to cooperate in every way I could. In no way did I want to unduly interfere with their organization. I had no jurisdiction over them and they were not part of any governmental or criminal justice system. None of us expected that AA would become an "arm" of the court. I was asking them to cooperate, why not listen to their wishes and concerns. They were quite sincere in their enquiry. I later found one of them was an Appellant Court Justice; another was a tough litigation attorney. Their incisive questioning seems to be looking for an ulterior motive, either publicity profit or just a plain ego power trip in some way. Strangers then, they later became very dear friends. 1. I have often wondered what the letter/report contained that went to Bill W. whose very name we greatly revere. I never felt it was my place to ask. Just curious. I. I felt all alone in the meeting. I was not a member of AA nor did I want to pay any entrance fees by doing a lot of drinking. (I had enough troubles already trying to learn to be a good judge) There was never in any books I had read or any of my training of 10 years in the law that helped me with my problem. J. Years later, I met the successor of Bill W. at the General Service Office in New York who came out to Salt Lake City to speak to the large AA meeting held at the Summer School on Alcoholism taking place at the University of Utah. I was teaching a class of Judges, Police Officers and Probation Officers at the one-week school in the Criminal Justice Section which I co-lead. He came to the classroom to hear my scheduled talk on the use of the court card. We later had lunch. He told me that their research in New York of the court card found that we had originated it in Downey, California. I was naturally pleased and complimented by his information. I think that was the first time I realized that we had first started the court card. July 4, 2002 Judge Leon Emerson Bud McDonald IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 8532. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: compulsory attendance at AA meetings - Rowland H. From: sobertom . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2012 4:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It seems compulsory attendance dates well before AA. Rowland H was turned over to the care of the Oxford Group. I think it is unlikely he was the first. I have no knowledge of whether or not he was required to verify his attendance and progress. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII