AA History Lovers messages 2118 Thru 3001

<title>AA History Lovers messages 2118 Thru 3001</title>






AA History Lovers

2005



Messages 2118-3001



moderated by



Nancy Olson
September 18, 1929 – March 25, 2005

Glenn F. Chesnut
June 28, 1939 –



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++++Message 2118. . . . . . . . . . . . Chuck and Lee?
From: ogzigensenza1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2005 5:37:00 AM

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I'm curious. Are the Chuck and Lee in "A.A. Comes of Age"/Los
Angeles A.A., Chuck and Elsa C.?

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++++Message 2119. . . . . . . . . . . . Jim''s Stroy
From: hjfree2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2005 12:39:00 PM

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In the Big Book Pioneer's Section, Jim's Story,

Ella G. introduces Jim to Charlie G., who brought Jim to AA and
became his sponsor. There is a lot about couple recovery in the
story (Vi & Jim where often the only attendees at the early
meetings, Vi's patience with Jim etc.)

Are Ella & Charlie also partners ergo the common "G" ? ? ? ?

blessed2bsober
rob

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++++Message 2120. . . . . . . . . . . . Thank you and question on Big Book
royalties
From: Bill Corcoran . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2005 12:24:00 PM

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Hello,

First of all, it is a pleasure to be a recent addition to the
membership of this group. I spent nearly a day reading through the
message archives and found it fascinating.
I do have a question that I hope someone can answer. I was at an
AA meeting recently and before the meeting, a rather pompous
individual was loudly voicing his opinions about AA history. He
mentioned that Bill W. had "stiffed" Dr. Bob for his share of the
royalties. Some of the old posts I read on this board seemed to
indicate otherwise, but I wanted to know if this person was off base
as I suspect he was. Any takers?

Thanks,

Bill O'C.
Middletown, RI

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++++Message 2121. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Thank you and question on Big
Book royalties
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2005 10:13:00 PM

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Hi Bill

The basis for the specific matter you inquire about derives from an August
1941
letter from Bill W to Dr Bob. Bill asked Dr Bob if he could take $500 from
accumulated Big Book royalties.

There is a web site community that propagates revisionist screeds about Bill
W
(among others). Something as plain as I described previously, has been
convoluted by them into portraying Bill as out to pull one over on Dr Bob.

How someone writing a letter, asking permission to take funds, could be
portrayed as trying to "stiff" his closest associate is beyond my
imagination
(but apparently not beyond the conspiratorial imagination of others). I
suspect
the web site provided the origin of the negative opinion formed by the
person
you mention.

Unfortunately, the topic is not related to history, it really involves
mean-spirited slander. Sadly, there seems to be an ever-growing increase in
the
number of people who try to make themselves look good solely through the
mechanism of trying to make someone else look bad.

Arthur

PS - if you want more info let me know through direct email to the "from"
address above.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Corcoran<mailto:WCOC121558@aol.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 11:24 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Thank you and question on Big Book royalties

Hello,

First of all, it is a pleasure to be a recent addition to the
membership of this group. I spent nearly a day reading through the
message archives and found it fascinating.
I do have a question that I hope someone can answer. I was at an
AA meeting recently and before the meeting, a rather pompous
individual was loudly voicing his opinions about AA history. He
mentioned that Bill W. had "stiffed" Dr. Bob for his share of the
royalties. Some of the old posts I read on this board seemed to
indicate otherwise, but I wanted to know if this person was off base
as I suspect he was. Any takers?

Thanks,

Bill O'C.
Middletown, RI

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istoryLovers/ [1]>

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++++Message 2122. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jim''s Stroy
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/16/2005 10:33:00 PM

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Hi Rob

Dr Jim mentions initially having meetings at Ella G's home as "... the first
meeting of a colored group in AA ..." Dr Jim does not identify the location
as
"Ella and Charlie's" home but only as "Ella G's."

In the story (pg 244 in the 4th edition Big Book) it infers that Ella G was
black and explicitly states that Charlie G was white. My interpretation is
that
Ella and Charlie were very close friends through the fellowship and common
bond
of AA.

The racial intolerance that existed at the time (which is very well
documented
in "Pass It On") I believe would have precluded them from being husband and
wife
and their difference in race would preclude them from being siblings.

In early AA, it was supposed to be fairly common for alcoholics and spouses
to
attend meetings together. Afterwards, the alcoholics would gather privately
into
a "closed" meeting of alcoholics only. When AA was under the umbrella of the
Oxford Group, other non-alcoholic Oxford Group members could (and did)
attend
the "open" portion of the meetings as well.

Cheers
Arthur
----- Original Message -----
From: hjfree2001<mailto:hjfree@fuse.net>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:39 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's Stroy

In the Big Book Pioneer's Section, Jim's Story,

Ella G. introduces Jim to Charlie G., who brought Jim to AA and
became his sponsor. There is a lot about couple recovery in the
story (Vi & Jim where often the only attendees at the early
meetings, Vi's patience with Jim etc.)

Are Ella & Charlie also partners ergo the common "G" ? ? ? ?

blessed2bsober
rob

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istoryLovers/ [1]>

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++++Message 2123. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Royalties
From: Rwj . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2005 1:41:00 PM

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Thanks for this information. I heard (also years ago
-- and I think it was from Barry who spoke at the
first Big D Roundup) that an early NYC member helped
write portions of the original Big Book -- but quit
the fellowship over an argument with Bill about who
owned the copyright and would get the royalties.

Can you shed light on this?

Rocky

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
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++++Message 2124. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Royalties
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2005 4:19:00 PM

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Hi Rocky

It was Hank Parkhurst. He was very instrumental in getting the Big Book
published and is also credited with writing chapter 10 "To Employers." Hank
got
drunk after 4 years sobriety and harbored many resentments against Bill. He
married a sister of Clarence Snyder who founded AA in Cleveland. Clarence
was a
thorn in Bill's side for decades.

in 1940 or 1941 Clarence S accused Bill of ripping off money from sales of
the
Big Book. He tried to set up Bill by calling a special meeting in Cleveland
and
asking Bill and Dr Bob to attend. The meeting was going to be used to accuse
Bill of many negative rumors that were circulating. Bill got wind of the
true
purpose of the meeting and had a CPA audit the books and provide a finance
statement. Bill showed the audit report at the Cleveland meeting and all but
Clarence apologized to him.

If you are looking for this kind of detailed info you can find a bunch of it
in
a timeline document I periodically distribute. You can download a copy from
oso-aa.org/library/pafiledb.php or silkworth.net/aahistory/general.html

The copies are a "public" version (member last names are reduced to last
initial). Silkworth.net has the material in html, PDF or Word format. I'll
be
issuing an updated/corrected and expanded version in a few months or so.
I'll
post a message on AAHistoryLovers when it is ready for distribution. Anyone
who
replies to the message gets a copy.

Cheers
Arthur
----- Original Message -----
From: Rwj<mailto:rwj426@yahoo.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:41 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Royalties

Thanks for this information. I heard (also years ago
-- and I think it was from Barry who spoke at the
first Big D Roundup) that an early NYC member helped
write portions of the original Big Book -- but quit
the fellowship over an argument with Bill about who
owned the copyright and would get the royalties.

Can you shed light on this?

Rocky

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com<http://my.yahoo.com/>

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istoryLovers/ [1]>

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++++Message 2125. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Editions
From: Jim . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2005 12:45:00 PM

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What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California

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++++Message 2126. . . . . . . . . . . . A man of thirty was doing a great
deal of spree drinking.
From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/20/2005 4:12:00 PM

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Do we have any idea who he was?
Curiously,
Pete

=====
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time."

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++++Message 2127. . . . . . . . . . . . Introduction
From: Richard Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2005 12:00:00 PM

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When,how where did we start saying "hello my name is somebody,I;m a
alocoholic...???

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++++Message 2128. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book Editions
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2005 12:30:00 AM

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Hi Jim

The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much "protected" from radical
change by the prevailing sentiment of the AA Fellowship as a whole. It has
also been reinforced (particularly in regard to the 4th edition) by
Conference advisory actions. However, changes to the Big Book can be
accomplished by Conference advisory action. I doubt that they would get too
far in reality if they were anything beyond very minor.

The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was 1 to 179 not 1 to 164.
"The Doctors Opinion" was originally page 1. "Bill's Story" became page 1 in
the 2nd edition. Nobody really knows why Bill W renumbered the Forewords and
"The Doctors Opinion" to Roman numerals but there is much creative
speculation.

Prior to publication of the 2nd edition (perhaps the late 1940's) Bill W
sensed that the Fellowship was resistant to changing the basic text. In his
presentation to the 1955 General Service Conference, he was careful to
inform them that the main objective of the 2nd edition was to change the
personal stories to better reflect the makeup of the membership. His report
stated: "Not an iota" of the first part of the text dealing with recovery
principles had been changed. The inside of the dust jacket of the 2nd
edition states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1 to page 165 [sic],
remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of most AAs, this should stand
as first written."

The Foreword to the 3rd edition reinforces this with the statement "Because
this book has become the basic text for our Society and has helped such
large numbers of alcoholic men and women to recovery, there exists a
sentiment against any radical changes being made to it. Therefore, the first
portion of this volume, describing the AA recovery program, has been left
untouched in the course of revisions made for both the second and third
editions."

There have been many wording changes over the years to the basic text
(including two changes to Step 12):

1. The wording of Step 12 changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st
edition. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual
awakening" and "as a result of these steps" was changed to "as a result of
those steps." Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Father Ed
Dowling expressed his dissatisfaction with the change in his address to the
1955 International Conference (see "AA Comes of Age" pg 256). The wording of
Step 12 was changed back to "these steps" in the 2nd printing of the 2nd
edition.

2. In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term "ex-alcoholic"
was replaced by the terms "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."

3. In places that express values, terms have been updated to express
growth (e.g. "scores" was changed to "hundreds" then changed to "thousands"
etc). Also, foot notes were added.

Several web sites have tables that detail the changes from edition to
edition.


Several Conference advisory actions related to the 4th edition specified
that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text, appendices and
"Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain as is." This pretty much
represents the ongoing sentiment of the AA membership that emerged with 2nd
edition (1955).

In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare."
It appeared that the Trustee's Literature Committee was non-responsive to
the Conference's advisory actions that the story "remain as is." It was
likely an honest mistake since there were so many Conference advisory
actions on the matter. In two advisory actions, the Conference authorized
making punctuation changes if they were done to correct errors. On the other
hand "remain as is" means "remain as is." The 2003 Conference let the
changes stand. The 2004 Conference passed a floor action to restore the
original punctuation.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Jim [mailto:khanti1008@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:45 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions

What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California

_____

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++++Message 2129. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Editions
(ex-problem....)
From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2005 4:02:00 PM

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Hi Art,
Thanks for your response to Jim. Now I have a question for you. I have
inquired
why the change to "ex-problem" drinker in the 11th printing of 1st Edition
from
"Ex-Alcoholic", but no replies. Do you have any kind of explaination for
this
change? Also if so could you provide any kind of reason for this action?
Thanks

Jay

----- Original Message -----
From: ArtSheehan
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions

Hi Jim

The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much "protected" from radical
change by the prevailing sentiment of the AA Fellowship as a whole. It has
also been reinforced (particularly in regard to the 4th edition) by
Conference advisory actions. However, changes to the Big Book can be
accomplished by Conference advisory action. I doubt that they would get too
far in reality if they were anything beyond very minor.

The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was 1 to 179 not 1 to 164.
"The Doctors Opinion" was originally page 1. "Bill's Story" became page 1 in
the 2nd edition. Nobody really knows why Bill W renumbered the Forewords and
"The Doctors Opinion" to Roman numerals but there is much creative
speculation.

Prior to publication of the 2nd edition (perhaps the late 1940's) Bill W
sensed that the Fellowship was resistant to changing the basic text. In his
presentation to the 1955 General Service Conference, he was careful to
inform them that the main objective of the 2nd edition was to change the
personal stories to better reflect the makeup of the membership. His report
stated: "Not an iota" of the first part of the text dealing with recovery
principles had been changed. The inside of the dust jacket of the 2nd
edition states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1 to page 165 [sic],
remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of most AAs, this should stand
as first written."

The Foreword to the 3rd edition reinforces this with the statement "Because
this book has become the basic text for our Society and has helped such
large numbers of alcoholic men and women to recovery, there exists a
sentiment against any radical changes being made to it. Therefore, the first
portion of this volume, describing the AA recovery program, has been left
untouched in the course of revisions made for both the second and third
editions."

There have been many wording changes over the years to the basic text
(including two changes to Step 12):

1. The wording of Step 12 changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st
edition. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual
awakening" and "as a result of these steps" was changed to "as a result of
those steps." Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Father Ed
Dowling expressed his dissatisfaction with the change in his address to the
1955 International Conference (see "AA Comes of Age" pg 256). The wording of
Step 12 was changed back to "these steps" in the 2nd printing of the 2nd
edition.

2. In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term "ex-alcoholic"
was replaced by the terms "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."

3. In places that express values, terms have been updated to express
growth (e.g. "scores" was changed to "hundreds" then changed to "thousands"
etc). Also, foot notes were added.

Several web sites have tables that detail the changes from edition to
edition.

Several Conference advisory actions related to the 4th edition specified
that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text, appendices and
"Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain as is." This pretty much
represents the ongoing sentiment of the AA membership that emerged with 2nd
edition (1955).

In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare."
It appeared that the Trustee's Literature Committee was non-responsive to
the Conference's advisory actions that the story "remain as is." It was
likely an honest mistake since there were so many Conference advisory
actions on the matter. In two advisory actions, the Conference authorized
making punctuation changes if they were done to correct errors. On the other
hand "remain as is" means "remain as is." The 2003 Conference let the
changes stand. The 2004 Conference passed a floor action to restore the
original punctuation.

Cheers

Arthur

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2130. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did the "I''M AN ALCOHOLIC,
MY NAME IS ________" Custom Start?
From: Roy Tellis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2005 11:35:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Johnson"
<hotshots@e...> wrote:
>
> When,how where did we start saying "hello my name is somebody,I;m
a
> alocoholic...???
-------------------------------------------
from Box 459, date/issue unknown, copied from "The Messenger", June
2001 :

"I'M AN ALCOHOLIC, MY NAME IS ________"

How Did The "I'm An Alcoholic" Custom Start?

Who was the first to start a meeting or a qualification with the
statement, "I'm an alcoholic"? How did the worldwide custom begin?

As late co-founder Bill W. used to observe: "Nobody invented AA.
It just grew." And so probably did its classic introduction at
meetings.

"Many members ask these questions." says G.S.O. archivist, Frank
M. "Unfortunately, only a few earlytimers are left, and not many of
them are able to produce plausible theories. So we can only
speculate."

According to an early friend of AA, the late Henrietta Seiberling,
the expression dates back to meetings of AA's forerunner, The Oxford
Group Movement, which had it's heyday in the early 1930's. Mrs.
Seiberling, a non-alcoholic who had sought spiritual help in the

Oxford Group meetings, introduced Bill to AA's other founder, Dr.
Bob, then struggling to get sober in the Oxford Group.

At small meetings, the members knew one another and didn't need to
identify themselves. But in the large "public" meetings, there
was "witnessing," along the lines of an AA talk today, so personal
identification became necessary. Chances are that someone at
sometime said, "I'm an alcoholic" but, Mrs. Seiberling wasn't sure.
Nor did she remember that the phrase was used at early AA meetings
in Akron, before publication of the Big Book. In fact, she said the
word "alcoholic" was rarely uttered, at least in Akron. People
referred to themselves as "drunks" or "rum hounds" or "boozers" or
other epithets reminiscent of the Temperance Movement that gained
adherents during prohibition.

An early New York AA first heard expression as "I'm an alcoholic and
my name is...". According to his recollection, that was after World
War II, in 1945 or 1946. And it is a matter of record that, in
1947, a documentary film, "I'm an alcoholic" was produced by RKO.
From there on, as Bill might say, the custom "just grew."

from Box 459, date/issue unknown, copied from "The Messenger", June
2001

Roy T.
Baldwin, NY

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++++Message 2131. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Author of "Life Saving Words" -
BB 3rd Ed.
From: Roy Tellis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2005 12:05:00 PM

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Dear Nancy,
My name is Roy T. and I am an alcoholic. Sobered up in Bombay India
in April 1990. I was going through the brief biograpies of the
authors ot the stories and I notices that you did not have the name
or accurate sobriety dates of the author of "Life Saving Words" from
the 3rd Ed. I contacted some of my friends involved in service in
India and am forwarding you some exerpts form the G.S.O. (India) AA
Manual (Historical section):

HOW THE MESSSAGE FIRST CAME TO INDIA : American pilots started a
meeting in Calcutta during World War II, but it did not survive the
war. Till 1957 a few individuals attempted sobriety through direct
correspondence with G.S.O., New York. FInally in early 1957, a
Canadian named Charley Marshall was posted to the Candian Embassy at
New Delhi. Prior to his coming to India, Charley wrote to our co-
founder, Bill W. informing that he was being sent to New Delhi
and "naturally I would like to keep up my A.A. activities, and if
there are any contacts there, that I can get in touch with, I would
surely welcome the opportunity". The reply from General Service
Office, N.Y. gave the contact names of Sylvia M. and Suppatti M.
to Charley Marshall. Confirmed correspondence indicates that Charley
M. arrived in New Delhi on 12th January 1957 and was able to locate
Sylvia and Suppatti M. within a week. He then began to place
advertisements in local newspapers offering help to those with a
drinking problem. It was through one of these "ads" that Lieutenant
Colonel Trevor King of the Jat Regiment of the Indian Army had the
opportunity to come in contact with Charley M. From his response,
Trevor K. remained sober from 24th October 1957 till his death on
31st Dec. 1986. The story of Trevor K. appears in the BIG BOOK
entitled - "Life-saving words". In November 1957, Trevor K. had
the good fortune to go to New Delhi where he met Charley M., who
suggested that he register as a "loner" due to his army postings.
Trevor's service postings took him to new places in India and he
became a roving ambassador of the A.A. movement in India sowing the
seeds of the fellowship at Bangalore, Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad,
Calcutta and other cities.

in fellowship
Roy T.
Baldwin, NY/Bombay, India

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++++Message 2132. . . . . . . . . . . . Conference of possible interest to
some
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2005 3:39:00 PM

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Hi,

Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,
though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to some of
us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA supporters
will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who can
verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my biography,
but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging ditches
today.

For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan. 9th. She
worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest. We
will miss her.

ernie kurtz

MARCH 10-12, 2005
SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY

www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm

Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and alcohol
problems. However, until recently little scientific research has
explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be related or
ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the latest
research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality and
addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological and
clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three full
day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address
responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.

Keynote Speakers:
· Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research Center,
University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of
Addictive Behaviors"
· Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology at the
Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of Addiction and
Recovery"

Other Presenters:
· Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California - Berkeley: "The Good,
the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"
· Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Explaining the
Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
· Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's God Got to
Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among African
American Youth"
· Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-Month
Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
· Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating
Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
· Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The Spiritual
Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis in
Addiction Research"

Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
· Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan Marlatt &
Jean Kristeller)
· Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley & Kathy Goggin)

Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
· Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and Addiction (Tom
Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
(Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop may do
so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the workshop)

The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health Education
1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the
three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and includes
continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend only
one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee, continental
breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available for
psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors (see
the conference web-site for details). For more information about the
conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-2449.

To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.

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++++Message 2134. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Conference of possible
interest to some
From: cometkazie1@cox.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2005 10:34:00 AM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

>
> From: "Tom P." <tomper99@yahoo.com>
> Date: 2005/01/22 Sat PM 11:01:54 EST
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some
>
>
>
> Thanks for the info Ernie.
> I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
> alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and
> the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
> when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know
> people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does
> not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the
> alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
> Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
> obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
> Tom P.
>

Are there any references that go into the specific differences between the
metabolism in non-alcoholics and alcoholics? As a chemist I have been
intrigued
but haven't been able to uncover anything specific for over a decade.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 2135. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Conference of possible
interest to some
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2005 4:42:00 PM

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Hi

I'm not trying to start a chat room exchange but an announcement of an
academic conference presenting "scientific, theological and clinical
perspectives" related to "spirituality and addiction" merits discussion.

For every Stanton Peele (whom I view as intellectually arrogant) there will
be, thank God, a George Vaillant (who Peele slanders as intellectually
dishonest).

I would love to see a debate between Peele and Vaillant (who served as a
non-alcoholic Trustee on AA's General Service Board). How Vaillant's work
with "The Natural History of Alcoholism" (and its "revisited" edition) can
be branded as "intellectually dishonest" by Peele escapes me. Particularly
when Peele offers little more than personal conviction to support his own
contrarian theories.

Peele's "intellectual honesty" in trying to disassociate himself from the
debacle of early endorsement of Moderation Management is telling. He asserts
that the MM founder's conviction of 2 counts of drunken vehicular homicide
somehow rests on the shoulders of AA. After returning to drinking, MM's
founder left her creation and rejoined AA. Continuing to drink, 3 months
later, she caused the death of 2 innocents. Peele asserts her 3 drunken
months in AA demonstrates the Fellowship's shortcoming.

I guess one cannot rise to the level of intellectual giant unless one
disavows the concept that abstinence has a 100% success rate and all bets
are off if you succumb to the insanity of the 1st drink. However, our
Fellowship didn't get started by God showing up in Bill W's room in Towns
Hospital with 164 stone tablets, a dozen ash trays and 5 pounds of coffee
and telling Bill to go start a meeting.

We in AA should be careful to also avoid arrogance, particularly in regard
to the infamous "E word." The notion that someone must "experience"
something to understand it doesn't stand under scrutiny. An oncologist
doesn't have to experience cancer to understand it as a devastating illness
and define its treatment. A psychiatrist doesn't have to experience mental
illness to understand how fatal it can be unless treated. A member of the
clergy doesn't have to descend to depravity to understand the blessings of
spiritual living.

Dr Strong, Charles Towns, Dr Silkworth, Sam Shoemaker, Henrietta Sieberling,
T Henry and Clarace Williams, Norman Sheppard, Sister Ignatia, Dr Tiebout,
Father Ed Dowling, E M Jellinek and numerous non-alcoholic Board Chairs and
Trustees, et al, very much had "a clue" about alcoholism without having
experienced it. In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully suggest that
alcoholism does not rise to such a special esoteric status that only the
afflicted have "a clue" of what it is and how to deal with it.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Tom P. [mailto:tomper99@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:02 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some

Thanks for the info Ernie.
I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and
the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know
people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does
not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the
alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
Tom P.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz <kurtzern@u...>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
> presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
> others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,
> though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to
some of
> us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA
supporters
> will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who
can
> verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my
biography,
> but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
> agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
> claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging
ditches
> today.
>
> For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
> researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan.
9th. She
> worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest.
We
> will miss her.
>
> ernie kurtz
>
> MARCH 10-12, 2005
> SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
> PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY
>
> www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm
>
> Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and
alcohol
> problems. However, until recently little scientific research has
> explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be
related or
> ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
> prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the
latest
> research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality
and
> addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological
and
> clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three
full
> day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address
> responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
> treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
> cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.
>
> Keynote Speakers:
> . Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research
Center,
> University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment
of
> Addictive Behaviors"
> . Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology
at the
> Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of
Addiction and
> Recovery"
>
> Other Presenters:
> . Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California -
Berkeley: "The Good,
> the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"
> . Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State
University: "Explaining the
> Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
> . Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's
God Got to
> Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among
African
> American Youth"
> . Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-
Month
> Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
> . Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating
> Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
> . Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The
Spiritual
> Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
> Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis
in
> Addiction Research"
>
> Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
> . Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan
Marlatt &
> Jean Kristeller)
> . Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley &
Kathy Goggin)
>
> Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
> . Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and
Addiction (Tom
> Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
> (Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop
may do
> so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the
workshop)
>
> The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health
Education
> 1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the
> three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and
includes
> continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
> reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend
only
> one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee,
continental
> breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available
for
> psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors
(see
> the conference web-site for details). For more information about
the
> conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-
2449.
>
> To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
> 800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.

_____

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2136. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Conference of possible
interest to some
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2005 5:07:00 PM

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Hi,
I appreciate Arthur's observations here. I have occasionally pulled up
Stanton Peele's website in the hope of finding him saying something good
about AA, but he rarely does.
I do think being an alcoholic gives us a good understanding of the nature
of compulsion. I am not a compulsive gambler, for example, but in knowing
how the first drink affected me, I can well understand how some gamblers can
be swept into insane, irrational behavior after experiencing or expecting a
win.
Mel Barger
~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 4:42 PM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some

>
> Hi
>
> I'm not trying to start a chat room exchange but an announcement of an
> academic conference presenting "scientific, theological and clinical
> perspectives" related to "spirituality and addiction" merits discussion.
>
> For every Stanton Peele (whom I view as intellectually arrogant) there
> will
> be, thank God, a George Vaillant (who Peele slanders as intellectually
> dishonest).
>
> I would love to see a debate between Peele and Vaillant (who served as a
> non-alcoholic Trustee on AA's General Service Board). How Vaillant's work
> with "The Natural History of Alcoholism" (and its "revisited" edition) can
> be branded as "intellectually dishonest" by Peele escapes me. Particularly
> when Peele offers little more than personal conviction to support his own
> contrarian theories.
>
> Peele's "intellectual honesty" in trying to disassociate himself from the
> debacle of early endorsement of Moderation Management is telling. He
> asserts
> that the MM founder's conviction of 2 counts of drunken vehicular homicide
> somehow rests on the shoulders of AA. After returning to drinking, MM's
> founder left her creation and rejoined AA. Continuing to drink, 3 months
> later, she caused the death of 2 innocents. Peele asserts her 3 drunken
> months in AA demonstrates the Fellowship's shortcoming.
>
> I guess one cannot rise to the level of intellectual giant unless one
> disavows the concept that abstinence has a 100% success rate and all bets
> are off if you succumb to the insanity of the 1st drink. However, our
> Fellowship didn't get started by God showing up in Bill W's room in Towns
> Hospital with 164 stone tablets, a dozen ash trays and 5 pounds of coffee
> and telling Bill to go start a meeting.
>
> We in AA should be careful to also avoid arrogance, particularly in regard
> to the infamous "E word." The notion that someone must "experience"
> something to understand it doesn't stand under scrutiny. An oncologist
> doesn't have to experience cancer to understand it as a devastating
> illness
> and define its treatment. A psychiatrist doesn't have to experience mental
> illness to understand how fatal it can be unless treated. A member of the
> clergy doesn't have to descend to depravity to understand the blessings of
> spiritual living.
>
> Dr Strong, Charles Towns, Dr Silkworth, Sam Shoemaker, Henrietta
> Sieberling,
> T Henry and Clarace Williams, Norman Sheppard, Sister Ignatia, Dr Tiebout,
> Father Ed Dowling, E M Jellinek and numerous non-alcoholic Board Chairs
> and
> Trustees, et al, very much had "a clue" about alcoholism without having
> experienced it. In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully suggest that
> alcoholism does not rise to such a special esoteric status that only the
> afflicted have "a clue" of what it is and how to deal with it.
>
> Cheers
>
> Arthur
>
> _____
>
> From: Tom P. [mailto:tomper99@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:02 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for the info Ernie.
> I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
> alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and
> the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
> when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know
> people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does
> not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the
> alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
> Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
> obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
> Tom P.
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz <kurtzern@u...>
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
>> presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
>> others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,
>> though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to
> some of
>> us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA
> supporters
>> will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who
> can
>> verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my
> biography,
>> but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
>> agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
>> claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging
> ditches
>> today.
>>
>> For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
>> researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan.
> 9th. She
>> worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest.
> We
>> will miss her.
>>
>> ernie kurtz
>>
>> MARCH 10-12, 2005
>> SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
>> PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY
>>
>> www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm
>>
>> Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and
> alcohol
>> problems. However, until recently little scientific research has
>> explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be
> related or
>> ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
>> prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the
> latest
>> research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality
> and
>> addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological
> and
>> clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three
> full
>> day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address
>> responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
>> treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
>> cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.
>>
>> Keynote Speakers:
>> . Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research
> Center,
>> University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment
> of
>> Addictive Behaviors"
>> . Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology
> at the
>> Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of
> Addiction and
>> Recovery"
>>
>> Other Presenters:
>> . Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California -
> Berkeley: "The Good,
>> the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"
>> . Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State
> University: "Explaining the
>> Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
>> . Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's
> God Got to
>> Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among
> African
>> American Youth"
>> . Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-
> Month
>> Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
>> . Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating
>> Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
>> . Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The
> Spiritual
>> Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
>> Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis
> in
>> Addiction Research"
>>
>> Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
>> . Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan
> Marlatt &
>> Jean Kristeller)
>> . Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley &
> Kathy Goggin)
>>
>> Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
>> . Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and
> Addiction (Tom
>> Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
>> (Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop
> may do
>> so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the
> workshop)
>>
>> The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health
> Education
>> 1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the
>> three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and
> includes
>> continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
>> reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend
> only
>> one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee,
> continental
>> breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available
> for
>> psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors
> (see
>> the conference web-site for details). For more information about
> the
>> conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-
> 2449.
>>
>> To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
>> 800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
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> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2137. . . . . . . . . . . . The most important lesson-2nd
edition?
From: hrlywolfiz . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2005 11:40:00 AM

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A couple of groups around my town read an excerpt from a story out
of the second edition(?)that starts with something like: The most
important lesson I have every learned in my life is that AA doesn't
need me, that I need AA. Very humbly, very sincerely. It has
something about sack cloth and ashes in it and if you have forgotten
how to pray you learn a little about that too.

Can anyone tell me the title of that story? It seems different
groups have different versions, and I am wondering what is correct.

I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in
addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the
meeting.

thanks
Sheila H

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++++Message 2138. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The most important lesson-2nd
edition?
From: pennington2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2005 1:16:00 PM

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The quote is from "There's Nothing the Matter with Me!" (page 499 in
the Second Edition of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous). The
story is in the section "They Nearly Lost All," and the complete quote
reads:

"That taught me the most important lesson I have ever learned in my
entire life. That is that A.A. doesn't need me, but I need A.A. Very
desperately, very sincerely, very humbly. Not all at once, because you
can't get it all at once, just a little bit at a time. They told me,
"You've got to get out and work a little; you've got to give." They
told me that giving was living, and that living was loving, and loving
was God. And you don't have to worry about God, because He's sitting
right in front of your eyes.
You get just a little sobriety, and you get just a little
humility. Not much, just a little. Not the humility of sackcloth and
ashes, but the humility of a man who's glad he's alive and can serve.
You get just a little tolerance, not too much, but just enough to sit
and listen to the other guy."

(quoted text is from page 507 of the Second Edition of the Big Book of
Alcoholics Anonymous)

p2

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "hrlywolfiz" <wolfdancer@c...>
wrote:
>
> A couple of groups around my town read an excerpt from a story out
> of the second edition(?)that starts with something like: The most
> important lesson I have every learned in my life is that AA doesn't
> need me, that I need AA. Very humbly, very sincerely. It has
> something about sack cloth and ashes in it and if you have forgotten
> how to pray you learn a little about that too.
>
> Can anyone tell me the title of that story? It seems different
> groups have different versions, and I am wondering what is correct.
>
> I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in
> addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the
> meeting.
>
> thanks
> Sheila H

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++++Message 2139. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The most important lesson-2nd
edition?
From: Thumper . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2005 1:31:00 PM

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The title of the story you are looking for is in the
Second Edition 499 - 508

THERE'S NOTHING THE MATTER WITH ME!

That's what the man said as he hocked his shoes for
the price of two bottles of Sneaky Pete. He drank
bayzo, canned heat, and shoe polish. He did a
phoney routine in A.A. for a while. And then he got
hold of the real thing.

I found it in a search on silkworth.net. Enjoy!

Paula Barnette

=====
in the right formation, the lifting power of many wings can achieve twice
the
distance of any bird flying alone.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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++++Message 2140. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The most important lesson-2nd
edition?
From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2005 5:04:00 PM

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On Jan 25, 2005, at 6:40, hrlywolfiz wrote:

> I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the meeting.

It's fairly common here in Honolulu, in some meetings, to read the beginning of "More About Alcoholism" in the 3rd Chapter. In the history meeting (see below), we read the preface to "Pass It On," where it explains how the book got its name.

Arkie

PS & FWIW: I attend two meetings which have slightly "off the beaten path" reading formats:

1. Thursday noon, "AA History 101." We read from the conference-approved histories; we're currently reading "Pass It On." It's a new meeting, gaining popularity. Not geared at newcomers, obviously. The way I position it is that I gain a greater appreciation for my Program by knowing its history; just as I understand my country better by knowing its history.

2. Friday "High Nooners." Having completed reading all the stories in the 4th edition, the group purchased several copies of "Experience, Strength & Hope," the conference-approved collection of all the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ed. stories no longer appearing. We read a story a week, and it's wonderful seeing some of the old stories again or coming upon stories for the first time.

Arkie

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++++Message 2141. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stools and Bottles
From: john pizzamiglio . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2005 10:13:00 PM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" <victhor90@y...>
wrote:
>
> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I
> was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first
> publish.
>
> Thank you in advance
>
> Victor F.
> Austin, Texas
i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review
listed on retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors
bios to see if it is listed to any one

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++++Message 2142. . . . . . . . . . . . amateur archivist at it again
From: steve . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2005 11:21:00 PM

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Hello everyone,

Thanks to Mel and others who helped me build an archive for the
kalamazoo Michigan area--it is now safely in the hands of the current
Delegate.

I have moved to Mount Pleasant Michigan and am at it again...if
anyone has any info please pass along, I'm starting from near nothing
here.

Also I've recently heard of a recording of Glenn Cofee sp? in 1969 in
Indiana at a conference--if anyone has any info on him or a Don
Stevens from Michigan that would help too...Thanks a bunch

Steve

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++++Message 2143. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Stools and Bottles
From: Corey Franks . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005

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HI Victor. We at www.archivesinternational.org have a picture of Ed Webster
along with Barry Collins those two are the authors of that book and a few
others
you may recognize. Take a look we also have much more information on both of
them and will be putting it on out site soon. THX! Corey F.

john pizzamiglio <flogging_god@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" <victhor90@y...>
wrote:
>
> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I
> was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first
> publish.
>
> Thank you in advance
>
> Victor F.
> Austin, Texas
i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review
listed on retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors
bios to see if it is listed to any one

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++++Message 2144. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Stools and Bottles
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005 2:04:00 AM

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Dear John (and Victor),

Ed Webster (who lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota) published The Little Red
Book
in 1946 under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group. Ed had the help and
support
of Dr. Bob, who gave numerous suggestions for wording various passages. That
was
his most famous book, but Ed also wrote the book you were asking about,
Stools
and Bottles (1955), and he also wrote Barroom Reveries (1958) and Our
Devilish
Alcoholic Personalities (in 1970, just a year before his death). In various
places in the U.S. and Canada, Ed was the third most widely read A.A.
author.

For more information see http://hindsfoot.org/redbk1.html

Jack H., an AA archivist from Scottsdale, Arizona, has all of Ed Webster's
papers, and knows an extraordinary amount about him. We need someone to
write a
biography of Ed. Jack's material would be invaluable for that.

Bill Pittman at the Hazelden Archives also knows a good deal. See the
Foreword
which Bill wrote for the Fiftieth Anniversary Edition of the Little Red Book
for
more about Ed Webster.

Ed went to the famous Founders Day Camping Trips in Minnesota held from 1944
to
1947 (see the photo of Dr. Bob holding a fish he caught on one of these
trips in
Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers) and was close to many of the early AA
leaders
from places like Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, and Winnipeg. He was especially
close to Dr. Bob, and Dr. Bob warmly supported Ed in his writing and
publishing.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend IN)

john pizzamiglio <flogging_god@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" wrote:

I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I was wonder
if
anyone new who the author was and when it was first publish.
Thank you in advance
Victor F.
Austin, Texas

i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review listed
on
retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors bios to see if it
is
listed to any one

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2145. . . . . . . . . . . . Stools and Bottles
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005 2:41:00 AM

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It's probably simpler to combine these two postings into a single message:

"Stephanie Burgess" <SBURGESS2004@msn.com> wrote in and said: "Stools and
Bottles is written by the same person who wrote The Little Red Book & Our
Devilish Alcoholic Personalities. It comes out of the Nicolette Group in
Minnesota, and was published originally by ?Cobb Webster as I seem to
remember.
Since my copies are in storage in Michigan and I am in New Mexico, I cannot
verify the publisher."

James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net> wrote in and said: "For what it is
worth,
the page at: http://www.martydee.com/AA/archives/000825.html states: 'Ed
Webster (who later wrote Stools and Bottles and Our Devilish Alcoholic
Personalities) was probably the principal author.' Talking about The Little
Red
Book."

To this let me add just a few of notes of my own:

When "The Little Red Book" first came out, the short title was simply "The
Twelve Steps." The long title was "An Interpretation of THE TWELVE STEPS of
the
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS PROGRAM." It had a dark burgundy cover, and therefore
eventually came to be referred to by AA people as "the little red book,"
which
was eventually used as the official title.

It said on the title page of the first edition (1946) that it was published
by
"Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" in Minneapolis. This simply meant that Barry
COLL-ins and Ed WEB-ster paid for printing it themselves. There was not
really
any commercial publishing firm called Coll-Webb. Ed Webster and Barry
Collins
did it under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. It was
based
on the beginners' lessons which Ed Webster had been giving at the Nicollet
Group
for some time. These were the earliest known AA beginners' classes, on the
basis
of our current knowledge.

Jack H., the AA archivist from Scottsdale, Arizona, who has all of Ed
Webster's
papers, says that Ed was the one who did all the writing on all four books
(The
Little Red Book, Stools and Bottles, Barroom Reveries, and Our Devilish
Alcoholic Personalities). Barry Collins seems to have helped pay for getting
The
Little Red Book published, Jack says, and that sort of thing, but not to
have
been involved in the writing itself.

Well, the one exception to the statement that Ed did all the writing on all
four
books, is that Dr. Bob sent a lot of comments to Ed as he published the
various
early editions of The Little Red Book, so in one sense we could say that Ed
Webster was the primary author of The Little Red Book, but that Dr. Bob also
played a part in writing it.

If you find a copy of Barroom Reveries anywhere, this is a VERY rare book.
Ed
intended it to be a book of AA humor, and it fell flat on its face, Jack
says,
so it was never reprinted. The "first edition first printing" is the only
version of this book that exists, and there could not be many copies at all
surviving by this point.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2146. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: I am an alcoholic?
From: Naomi Blankenship . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005 12:45:00 PM

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Hey there alcoholic Naomi here,

I have a note in my BB, with mention of Mort J., that says the custom
of IDing oneself as alcoholic was besides giving your name wasn't
started until the 50s in Southern CA. I know from going to meetings
on the West Coast that they start with alcoholic first then the
name. On the East Coast they say their name first then alcoholic.
At least that has been my experience of nearly 18 years.

I have read a lot of program lit and other historical accounts so I
have yet to come across here I picked up the note from. Then again
it could have been in a Joe & Charlie Study too. My sponsor told me
long ago that saying alcoholic first is because it is more important
to remember that I am one than it is to know my name.

I'll keep looking for the reference. Thanks for letting me sharing
and sharing in my sobriety.

Naomi

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++++Message 2147. . . . . . . . . . . . Herbert Spencer
From: Nicholas J. Hernandez . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005 12:34:00 PM

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How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?

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++++Message 2148. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Herbert Spencer
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005 3:21:00 PM

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Hi Nicholas

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the
1st edition Big Book. The term “spiritual experience” was changed to
“spiritual awakening” and the term “as the result of these
steps” was
changed to “as the result of those steps.” Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, “Spiritual Experience” was added (it was appendix
I
then, not appendix II).

The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called the
“educational variety.”

The initial version of the “Spiritual Experience” appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term “those
steps” back to “these steps.” The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled “An Artist’s
Concept” by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book’s dust jacket). Ray C’s
story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was added
to the appendix.

The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation (a
few works have been cited but not verified).

I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the last
sentences of the appendix that “Willingness, honesty and open mindedness
are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.”

Cheers

Arthur

PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term “survival
of
the fittest.”

_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer

How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?

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++++Message 2149. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Herbert Spencer
From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005 4:15:00 PM

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I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
from an unpublished letter.

any truth to that?

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

Hi Nicholas

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the
1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
to
"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
steps" was
changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
appendix I
then, not appendix II).

The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
the
"educational variety."

The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
"those
steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
Concept" by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
C's story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
added
to the appendix.

The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
(a
few works have been cited but not verified).

I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
last
sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."

Cheers

Arthur

PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
"survival of
the fittest."

_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer

How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?

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IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

++++Message 2150. . . . . . . . . . . . To Wives
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005 4:31:00 PM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
"To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
been found to support that?
___________________________________________

An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
Cleveland, Ohio
p. 378 in 1st edition

Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.

There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
wrote it.

She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
and good fortune because we found a new way of living."

Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
and their son.

When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
to give their problems to God.

She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
When we live with God we want for nothing."

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

++++Message 2151. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Herbert Spencer
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005 5:06:00 PM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

I had the same thought about the source of the quotation - that it might
come from a piece of correspondence rather than a published work.

A reputable web site has had a posting for over a year now asking anyone who
might be aware of the source of the quotation to please identify it. Some
citations were sent in but they haven’t been verified.

Searches through web sites specializing in quotations, either will not have
the quotation in their data base or cite the Big Book as its source (not
surprising since there have been so many Big Books distributed).

Arthur

_____

From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:15 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer

I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
from an unpublished letter.

any truth to that?

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

Hi Nicholas

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the
1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
to
"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
steps" was
changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
appendix I
then, not appendix II).

The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
the
"educational variety."

The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
"those
steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
Concept" by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
C's story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
added
to the appendix.

The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
(a
few works have been cited but not verified).

I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
last
sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."

Cheers

Arthur

PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
"survival of
the fittest."

_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer

How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12c56dp7k/M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=gr

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k.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1106762470184944>

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<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110676
> &time=110676

2470184944>

<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=grphealth

/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=773622983>

_____

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

++++Message 2152. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Herbert Spencer
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005 6:07:00 PM

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This just in. Can anyone verify this?

Herbert Spencer quote is from his book
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido CA for sending this.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:15 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer

I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
from an unpublished letter.

any truth to that?

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

Hi Nicholas

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the
1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
to
"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
steps" was
changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
appendix I
then, not appendix II).

The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
the
"educational variety."

The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
"those
steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
Concept" by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
C's story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
added
to the appendix.

The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
(a
few works have been cited but not verified).

I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
last
sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."

Cheers

Arthur

PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
"survival of
the fittest."

_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer

How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

++++Message 2153. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: I am an alcoholic?
From: Steve Aeilts . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005 6:41:00 PM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

naomi,

well, my sponsor taught me to ID my self (in any open meeting) as:

"My name is Steve, and I'm a member of Alcoholics Anonymous..."

he showed me a paragraph in the BBook forwords that came from the first
edition
where Bill wrote:

"When writing or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our
Fellowship to omit his personal name, designating himself instead as 'a
member
of Alcoholics Anonymous.' "

this is on page xiii of the fourth edition.

i do refer to myself as "I'm Steve and i'm an alcoholic" at our Home Group
business meetings or at any closed meeting i might attend.

this is just the way we do it here in Casper, Wyoming.

or at least this is the way i do it here in town.

thanks, and maybe i'll see you on the Great Highway down the road!

i remain,

love&peace, steve a. dos: April 24, 1998
----- Original Message -----
From: Naomi Blankenship
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: I am an alcoholic?

Hey there alcoholic Naomi here,

I have a note in my BB, with mention of Mort J., that says the custom
of IDing oneself as alcoholic was besides giving your name wasn't
started until the 50s in Southern CA. I know from going to meetings
on the West Coast that they start with alcoholic first then the
name. On the East Coast they say their name first then alcoholic.
At least that has been my experience of nearly 18 years.

I have read a lot of program lit and other historical accounts so I
have yet to come across here I picked up the note from. Then again
it could have been in a Joe & Charlie Study too. My sponsor told me
long ago that saying alcoholic first is because it is more important
to remember that I am one than it is to know my name.

I'll keep looking for the reference. Thanks for letting me sharing
and sharing in my sobriety.

Naomi

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

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++++Message 2154. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Herbert Spencer
From: Tom P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2005 8:16:00 PM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

"Nov 2003 Final Answer?? has come that this quote is from his
Herbert Spencer
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

We are Verifying this Nov 16 2003
Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido California for sending me this Info!!"

This is from http://www.aabibliography.com/hspencer.html

Nov 2003 has come and gone and no verification yet. If I had $225.00
I would order the 3d Edition from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/102-0608968-
7623353
but I don't. And I have had enough trauma in my life I do not need
to read about any more anyway.

Tom P.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Bill Lash <barefootbill@o...>
wrote:
> This just in. Can anyone verify this?
>
> Herbert Spencer quote is from his book
> "The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
> Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192
>
> Special Thanks to Dave Howard
> of Escondido CA for sending this.
>
> Just Love,
> Barefoot Bill
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@p...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:15 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer
>
>
> I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were
taken
> from an unpublished letter.
>
> any truth to that?
>
> Rob W.
> Baltimore
>
> >>> ArtSheehan@m... 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>
>
> Hi Nicholas
>
>
>
> In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd
printing
> of the
> 1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
> to
> "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
> steps" was
> changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
> changes to
> Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
> appendix I
> then, not appendix II).
>
>
>
> The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought
that they
> had
> to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to
the
> one
> Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
> spiritual
> experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James
called
> the
> "educational variety."
>
>
>
> The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
> contain
> the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the
appendix
> until
> mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd
printing
> of
> the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the
term
> "those
> steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
> originally
> appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
> Concept" by Ray
> C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
> C's story
> was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the
quotation was
> added
> to the appendix.
>
>
>
> The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
> written
> work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the
quotation
> (a
> few works have been cited but not verified).
>
>
>
> I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had
much, if
> any,
> influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis
to the
> last
> sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
> mindedness are
> the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Arthur
>
>
>
> PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
> "survival of
> the fittest."
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@y...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer
>
>
>
>
> How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
> mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or
was
> his work more thouroughly studied?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2155. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Author of "Life Saving
Words"/Early AA History in India
From: Roy V. Tellis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2005 2:13:00 AM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Dear Nancy,

I may have inadvertantly caused some confusion when I
sent in the email regarding Trevor K., the author of
"Life Saving Words" in the 3rd Edition of the Big
Book. I may have given the impression that Trevor K.
was the founding member of AA in India. In actual fact
the FIRST Indian who sobered up in response to the
Canadian Charley Marshall's advertisemet was a
schoolmaster from Bombay (Mumbai) called Harry
Mathais, to be soon followed by John G., Ignatius P.,
Tony M., and Vithal P. The author of the story Trevor
K. INDEPENDENTLY saw the advertisement, wrote to
Charlie in Delhi, received literature and sobered up
as the result of studying the literature and later had
the opportunity to meet Charley. I apologise for any
confusion caused and am sending you a revised email.

Thank you for letting me share,
Roy T.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

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++++Message 2156. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: To Wives
From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2005 6:43:00 AM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

In Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia, she backs that up. To my knowledge,
Bill never said he wrote it but he did edit the chapter.
Diz T.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ny-aa@att.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:31 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives

>
> The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
> the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
> "To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
> story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
> been found to support that?
> ___________________________________________
>
> An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
> Cleveland, Ohio
> p. 378 in 1st edition
>
> Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
> Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.
>
> There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
> the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
> and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
> wrote it.
>
> She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
> should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
> misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
> and good fortune because we found a new way of living."
>
> Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
> to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
> and their son.
>
> When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
> soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
> to give their problems to God.
>
> She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
> problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
> When we live with God we want for nothing."
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2157. . . . . . . . . . . . Revision: Author of "Life Saving
Words" 3rd Edition
From: Roy V. Tellis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2005 2:36:00 AM

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Dear Nancy,

My name is Roy T. and I am an alcoholic. Sobered up in
Bombay India in April 1990. I was going through the
brief biograpies of the authors of the stories and I
notices that you did not have the name or accurate
sobriety dates of the author of "Life Saving Words"
from the 3rd Ed. I contacted some of my friends
involved in service in India and am forwarding you
some exerpts form the G.S.O. (India) AA
Manual (Historical section):

HOW THE MESSSAGE FIRST CAME TO INDIA : American pilots
started a meeting in Calcutta during World War II, but
it did not survive the war. Till 1957 a few
individuals attempted sobriety through direct
correspondence with G.S.O., New York. FInally in early
1957, a Canadian named Charley Marshall was posted to
the Candian Embassy at New Delhi. Prior to his coming
to India, Charley wrote to our co-founder, Bill W.
informing that he was being sent to New Delhi
and "naturally I would like to keep up my A.A.
activities, and if there are any contacts there, that
I can get in touch with, I would surely welcome the
opportunity". The reply from General Service Office,
N.Y. gave the contact names of Sylvia M. and Suppatti
M. to Charley Marshall. Confirmed correspondence
indicates that Charley M. arrived in New Delhi on 12th
January 1957 and was able to locate Sylvia and
Suppatti M. within a week. He then began to place
advertisements in local newspapers offering help to
those with a drinking problem.

The FIRST Indian who responded to the advertisemet was
a schoolmaster from Bombay (Mumbai) called Harold
Mathias, who called on Charley M. personally in New
Delhi. Harry M. spent some days with Charley at Delhi
learning about the disease of alcoholism and the
program and spiritual principles of Alcoholics
Anonymous. He returned to Mumbai armed with the
literature given to him and stopped drinking from 5th
May 1957 till his premature sober death on 5th June,
1967. On his return to Bombay he twelve-stepped John
G., Ignatius P., Tony M., and Vithal P., who were
(are) some of the pioneers in India.

A letter from G.S.O. New York to Charley M. dated 5th
March 1957 saying "Thanks so much for your letter
dated 24th February 1957 and the enclosed registration
card for the New Delhi Group". This indicates that an
A.A. group was started in New Delhi in early February
1957.

The efforts of Harry M. in spreading the message were
indeed stupendous, and by November, 1957, after about
six months, a small group was already functioning in
Mumbai. A letter from G.S.O. New York to Harry M.
dated 17th March 1958, discussed several issues and
enclosed such literature as "The Structure and
Services of AA", and also material on "A.A. and
Hospital Co-operation". Within less than a year the
A.A. group in Mumbai had become active. In the A.A.
Grapevine of October 1958, there was a two page report
of A.A. in India written by Charley M. The report
says that the largest concentration of A.A. members
was in Mumbai mentioning the figure as 23. The A.A.
directory card of December 1958 records that A.A. in
India consisted of 48 members, of whom Mumbai had 30,
Delhi 7, Calcutta 5 and one or two in other cities.

AUTHOR OG LIFE SAVING WORDS
Another pioneer of the A.A. movement outside Mumbai
was Lieutenant Colonel Trevor King of the Jat Regiment
of the Indian Army. He to responded to the newspaper
advertisemnt, and had the opportunity to come in
contact with Charley M. through correspondence. After
receiving literature from Charleyin the mail, Trevor
K. remained sober from 24th October 1957 till his
death on 31st Dec. 1986. The story of Trevor K.
appears in the BIG BOOK entitled - "Life-saving
words". In November 1957, Trevor K. had the good
fortune to go to New Delhi where he met Charley M. for
the first time, almost a month after the sobered up
through the mail. Charley suggested that he register
as a "loner" due to his army postings. Trevor's
service postings took him to new places in India and
he became a roving ambassador of the A.A. movement in
India sowing the seeds of the fellowship at Bangalore,
Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad,
Calcutta and other cities.

in fellowship
Roy T.
Baldwin, NY/Bombay, India

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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++++Message 2158. . . . . . . . . . . . Herbert Spencer Redux
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2005 1:28:00 PM

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Hi

Just checked with the webmaster of the link via e-mail.

He replied that the cited source is still not verified.

I'd buy that book if I was sure the quotation is in it.

Sure don't want to pay a $225 tuition to learn that it's not though.

Cheers

Arthur

From: "Tom P." <tomper99@y...
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/post?postID=4Ak-8lWjaa
SZYeCpCv8eZorpjTVULZwo0AzMkETZClojkxB8LhiEcexINAHDuCosf0p9lmIKO1qr-hhBjw> >
Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:16 am
Subject: Re: Herbert Spencer

"Nov 2003 Final Answer?? has come that this quote is from his
Herbert Spencer
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

We are Verifying this Nov 16 2003
Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido California for sending me this Info!!"

This is from http://www.aabibliography.com/hspencer.html

Nov 2003 has come and gone and no verification yet. If I had $225.00
I would order the 3d Edition from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/102-0608968-
7623353
but I don't. And I have had enough trauma in my life I do not need
to read about any more anyway.

Tom P.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2159. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: To Wives
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2005 2:34:00 PM

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Mary C Darrah's excellent biography "Sister Ignatia" (pgs 128-129) states
that Bill wrote to Dr Bob that he thought Anne (Dr Bob's wife) should write
the chapter. Anne declined. Darrah goes on to state that a discrepancy
exists in comparing NY and Akron archive records regarding the authorship of
"To Wives." At the end of her commentary, Darrah reports that Marie B wrote
a draft that Bill W revised. I presume this was premised on the Akron
archives records.

Other sources state that Bill W wrote the chapter:

(1) Lois W's in "Lois Remembers" (pg 114) states that Bill wrote the chapter
although she suggested to him that she should write it.

(2) Francis Hartigan in "Bill W" (pgs 114-115) cites Lois as being far
angrier than she described herself in "Lois Remembers" and also states that
Bill W wrote the chapter. Hartigan was Lois W's personal secretary and
confidant.

(3) "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" states "Bill himself wrote the chapter
that came to be called 'To Wives' and Marie B, the wife of a member from
Cleveland, wrote a personal account for the story section of the first
edition."

More sources may comment on the matter, however, barring revelation of the
details in the Akron archive's "indication" the weight of evidence leans to
concluding that Bill W was the author of the chapter rather than Marie B.

But I'd still be very curious to learn what is in the Akron archives data.
Does anyone know?

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Diz Titcher [mailto:rtitcher@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:44 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives

In Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia, she backs that up. To my knowledge,
Bill never said he wrote it but he did edit the chapter.
Diz T.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ny-aa@att.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:31 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives

>
> The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
> the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
> "To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
> story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
> been found to support that?
> ___________________________________________
>
> An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
> Cleveland, Ohio
> p. 378 in 1st edition
>
> Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
> Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.
>
> There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
> the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
> and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
> wrote it.
>
> She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
> should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
> misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
> and good fortune because we found a new way of living."
>
> Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
> to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
> and their son.
>
> When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
> soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
> to give their problems to God.
>
> She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
> problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
> When we live with God we want for nothing." 

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++++Message 2160. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Herbert Spencer Redux
From: Nicholas J. Hernandez . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2005 11:46:00 AM

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When you look at the Amazon site, you can check the table of
contents of the book. The source pointing to p 192 is in a chapter
titled "Closed Head Injury" by a David I. Graham. So the chapter is
not even by Herbert Spencer. Maybe Mr. Graham metions the quote,
but I doubt if he cites its source as anything other than Herbert
Spencer or the Big Book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/

The bigger question I had was how much influence did the ideas of
Herbert Spencer have on Bill Wilson.

By the way Herbert Spencer was a big influence on Henri Bergson who
in turn had a big influence on William James.

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++++Message 2170. . . . . . . . . . . . Jack Alexander''Birthday and place
From: Jaime Maliachi . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2005 12:20:00 PM

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Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2172. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Jack Alexander''Birthday and
place
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2005 2:06:00 PM

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Hi Jaime,
I do know that Jack Alexander died in 1975. He was an AA trustee for a
length of time. Perhaps the 1975 Grapevines would have a mention.
Mel Barger
~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:20 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jack Alexander'Birthday and place

Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2173. . . . . . . . . . . . Jack Alexander
From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2005 9:57:00 PM

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Hello,

I have been trying for some time to get more information about Jack. I have
written the Sat Evening Post Archives, and they no help at all. They only
knew
he wrote for the magazine. I was able to find a list of articles he had
written
and I am including that list. I would really like to find a photo of Jack
for
our archives, but haven't found a good one yet. The most information I found
on
him was from his memorial found in the December 1975 AA Grapevine.
Hope this helps
Charles from California

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

December 1975 AA Grapevine
Passing of Jack Alexander
Recalls Early AA Growth

Our Fellowship has reason to be forever grateful to Jack Alexander, who died
on
September 17 in St. Petersburg, Fla., at 73. AA was less than six years old,
with a membership around 2,000, when the reporter and magazine writer was
assigned to do a Saturday Evening Post article on the obscure group of
recovering alcoholics.

Jack approached the job skeptically, but ended his research as "a true AA
convert in spirit," in the words of co-founder Bill W. The article (now
re-printed as an AA pamphlet, "The Jack Alexander Article") was published in
the
March 1, 1941, issue - and by the end of that year, AA membership had
reached
8,000! In the May 1945 Grapevine, Jack told the story-behind-the-story,
"Were
the AAs Pulling My Leg?'

During Jack's 1951-56 service as a non-alcoholic trustee on the AA General
Service Board, he "added the final editorial touch" to the manuscript of the
"Twelve and Twelve." He was a senior editor on the Post at his retirement,
in
1964. After he and his wife (who survives him) moved to Florida, he kept in
touch with AA until his health began to fail.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

ALEXANDER, JACK Alphabetical

a.. * Alcoholics Anonymous, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
b.. * All Father's Chillun Got Heavens, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov
18
1939
c.. * The Amazing Story of Walt Disney, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct
31,
Nov 7 1953
d.. * Border Without Bayonets, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
e.. * Boss on the Spot, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
f.. * Buyer No. 1, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
g.. * Cellini to Hearst to Klotz, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941
h.. * The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series), (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Apr 12 1947
i.. * The Cop with the Criminal Brother, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov
7
1959
j.. * Cover Man (Norman Rockwell), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13
1943
k.. * The Dagwood and Blondie Man, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10
1948;
about Chic Young.
l.. * Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Mar
2 1957
m.. * The Drunkard's Best Friend, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950;
Alcoholics Anonymous.
n.. * Everybody's Business, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A
great library can house romance as well as books.
o.. * He Rose from the Rich, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
p.. * Iron Floats to Market, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
q.. * "Just Call Mr. C.R.", (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
r.. * King Hanky-Panky of Jersey, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940
s.. * The Last Shall be First, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
t.. * Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct
8
1938
u.. * Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug
9
1958
v.. * Nervous Ice, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
w.. * The Ordeal of Judge Medina, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950
x.. * Panhandle Puck, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
y.. * Reformer in the Promised Land, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22
1939
z.. * The Restaurants That Nickels Built, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec
18 1954
aa.. * Rip-Roaring Baillie, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946
ab.. * The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy), (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Aug 9 1947
ac.. * Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul
30
1949
ad.. * They Sparked the Carrier Revolution, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Sep
16 1944
ae.. * The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep
3
1938
af.. * Ungovernable Governor, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
ag.. * What a President They Picked, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24
1951
ah.. * What Happened to Judge Crater?, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10
1960
ai.. * The World's Greatest Newspaper, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26
1941
aj.. * Young Man of Manhattan, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939

ALEXANDER, JACK by Date

a.. The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3
1938
b.. Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 8
1938
c.. The Last Shall be First (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
d.. He Rose from the Rich (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
e.. Young Man of Manhattan (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939
f.. Reformer in the Promised Land (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22 1939
g.. Boss on the Spot (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
h.. All Father's Chillun Got Heavens (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18
1939
i.. Iron Floats to Market (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
j.. Border Without Bayonets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
k.. King Hanky-Panky of Jersey (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940
l.. "Just Call Mr. C.R." (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
m.. Alcoholics Anonymous (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
n.. Nervous Ice (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
o.. Buyer No. 1 (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
p.. The World's Greatest Newspaper (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26
1941
q.. Cellini to Hearst to Klotz (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941
r.. Everybody's Business (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A great
library can house romance as well as books.
s.. Ungovernable Governor (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
t.. Cover Man (Norman Rockwell) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943
u.. Panhandle Puck (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
v.. They Sparked the Carrier Revolution (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep
16
1944
w.. Rip-Roaring Baillie (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946
x.. The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series) (ar) The Saturday
Evening
Post Apr 12 1947
y.. The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy) (ar) The Saturday Evening
Post Aug 9 1947
z.. The Dagwood and Blondie Man (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10 1948;
about Chic Young.
aa.. Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30
1949
ab.. The Drunkard's Best Friend (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950;
Alcoholics Anonymous.
ac.. The Ordeal of Judge Medina (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950
ad.. What a President They Picked (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24 1951
ae.. The Amazing Story of Walt Disney (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 31,
Nov 7 1953
af.. The Restaurants That Nickels Built (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec
18
1954
ag.. Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar
2
1957
ah.. Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9
1958
ai.. The Cop with the Criminal Brother (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 7
1959
aj.. What Happened to Judge Crater? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10
1960

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:25 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 699

There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Jack Alexander'Birthday and place
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:20:21 -0600
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>
Subject: Jack Alexander'Birthday and place

Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2174. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Jack Alexander
From: Patrick Morgan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2005 8:19:00 AM

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I’ll check and see if we have a picture for you im sure we have archives
on
jack let me get back to you
Thanks
Webmaster@archivesinternational.org (Pat M.)

_____

From: Charles Knapp [mailto:cdknapp@pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:57 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jack Alexander

Hello,

I have been trying for some time to get more information about Jack. I
have written the Sat Evening Post Archives, and they no help at all. They
only knew he wrote for the magazine. I was able to find a list of articles
he had written and I am including that list. I would really like to find a
photo of Jack for our archives, but haven't found a good one yet. The most
information I found on him was from his memorial found in the December 1975
AA Grapevine.
Hope this helps
Charles from California

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

December 1975 AA Grapevine
Passing of Jack Alexander
Recalls Early AA Growth

Our Fellowship has reason to be forever grateful to Jack Alexander, who died
on September 17 in St. Petersburg, Fla., at 73. AA was less than six years
old, with a membership around 2,000, when the reporter and magazine writer
was assigned to do a Saturday Evening Post article on the obscure group of
recovering alcoholics.

Jack approached the job skeptically, but ended his research as "a true AA
convert in spirit," in the words of co-founder Bill W. The article (now
re-printed as an AA pamphlet, "The Jack Alexander Article") was published in
the March 1, 1941, issue - and by the end of that year, AA membership had
reached 8,000! In the May 1945 Grapevine, Jack told the
story-behind-the-story, "Were the AAs Pulling My Leg?'

During Jack's 1951-56 service as a non-alcoholic trustee on the AA General
Service Board, he "added the final editorial touch" to the manuscript of the
"Twelve and Twelve." He was a senior editor on the Post at his retirement,
in 1964. After he and his wife (who survives him) moved to Florida, he kept
in touch with AA until his health began to fail.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

ALEXANDER, JACK Alphabetical

a.. * Alcoholics Anonymous, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
b.. * All Father's Chillun Got Heavens, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov
18 1939
c.. * The Amazing Story of Walt Disney, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct
31, Nov 7 1953
d.. * Border Without Bayonets, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
e.. * Boss on the Spot, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
f.. * Buyer No. 1, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
g.. * Cellini to Hearst to Klotz, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1
1941
h.. * The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series), (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Apr 12 1947
i.. * The Cop with the Criminal Brother, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Nov 7 1959
j.. * Cover Man (Norman Rockwell), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13
1943
k.. * The Dagwood and Blondie Man, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10
1948; about Chic Young.
l.. * Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Mar 2 1957
m.. * The Drunkard's Best Friend, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1
1950; Alcoholics Anonymous.
n.. * Everybody's Business, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A
great library can house romance as well as books.
o.. * He Rose from the Rich, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
p.. * Iron Floats to Market, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
q.. * "Just Call Mr. C.R.", (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
r.. * King Hanky-Panky of Jersey, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26
1940
s.. * The Last Shall be First, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
t.. * Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Oct 8 1938
u.. * Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Aug 9 1958
v.. * Nervous Ice, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
w.. * The Ordeal of Judge Medina, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12
1950
x.. * Panhandle Puck, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
y.. * Reformer in the Promised Land, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22
1939
z.. * The Restaurants That Nickels Built, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Dec 18 1954
aa.. * Rip-Roaring Baillie, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8
1946
ab.. * The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy), (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Aug 9 1947
ac.. * Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul
30 1949
ad.. * They Sparked the Carrier Revolution, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Sep 16 1944
ae.. * The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Sep 3 1938
af.. * Ungovernable Governor, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
ag.. * What a President They Picked, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24
1951
ah.. * What Happened to Judge Crater?, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep
10 1960
ai.. * The World's Greatest Newspaper, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul
26 1941
aj.. * Young Man of Manhattan, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939

ALEXANDER, JACK by Date

a.. The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3
1938
b.. Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct
8 1938
c.. The Last Shall be First (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
d.. He Rose from the Rich (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
e.. Young Man of Manhattan (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939
f.. Reformer in the Promised Land (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22
1939
g.. Boss on the Spot (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
h.. All Father's Chillun Got Heavens (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18
1939
i.. Iron Floats to Market (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
j.. Border Without Bayonets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
k.. King Hanky-Panky of Jersey (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940
l.. "Just Call Mr. C.R." (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
m.. Alcoholics Anonymous (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
n.. Nervous Ice (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
o.. Buyer No. 1 (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
p.. The World's Greatest Newspaper (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26
1941
q.. Cellini to Hearst to Klotz (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941
r.. Everybody's Business (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A
great library can house romance as well as books.
s.. Ungovernable Governor (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
t.. Cover Man (Norman Rockwell) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943

u.. Panhandle Puck (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
v.. They Sparked the Carrier Revolution (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep
16 1944
w.. Rip-Roaring Baillie (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946
x.. The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series) (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Apr 12 1947
y.. The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy) (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Aug 9 1947
z.. The Dagwood and Blondie Man (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10
1948; about Chic Young.
aa.. Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30
1949
ab.. The Drunkard's Best Friend (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950;
Alcoholics Anonymous.
ac.. The Ordeal of Judge Medina (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950

ad.. What a President They Picked (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24
1951
ae.. The Amazing Story of Walt Disney (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct
31, Nov 7 1953
af.. The Restaurants That Nickels Built (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec
18 1954
ag.. Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Mar 2 1957
ah.. Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug
9 1958
ai.. The Cop with the Criminal Brother (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov
7 1959
aj.. What Happened to Judge Crater? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10
1960

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:25 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 699

There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Jack Alexander'Birthday and place
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:20:21 -0600
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>
Subject: Jack Alexander'Birthday and place

Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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++++Message 2175. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W and depression
From: George Cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2005 1:34:00 PM

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What is the best source for information on what Bill W did to overcome
his depression? And is there solid information on his research with
Vitamin B therapies?

Thanks.

George Cleveland

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

++++Message 2176. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W and depression
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2005 10:15:00 PM

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Hi George

The references in the text below offer some informative
reading.

SOURCE REFERENCES:

AABB Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big
Book, AAWS

AACOA AA Comes of Age, AAWS

BW-RT Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft
cover)

BW-FH Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard
cover)

BW-40 Bill W My First 40 Years,
autobiography (hard cover)

GB Getting Better Inside
Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft cover)

GTBT Grateful to Have Been There by
Nell Wing (soft cover)

LOH The Language of the Heart, AA
Grapevine Inc

LR Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson

NG Not God, by Ernest Kurtz
(expanded edition, soft cover)

NW New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)

PIO Pass It On, AAWS

1912

Sept, at the beginning of the school year at Burr and
Burton, Bill W was president of the senior class, star
football player, star pitcher and captain of the baseball
team and first violin in the school orchestra. (BW-FH 19)

Nov 18, Bill W's schoolmate and "first love" Bertha Bamford,
died from hemorrhaging after surgery at the Flower Hospital
in NYC. She was the daughter of the rector of the
Manchester, VT Zion Episcopal Church. Bill learned about it
at school on the 19th. It began a 3-year episode of
depression, which severely affected his performance at
school and home. (AACOA 54, PIO 35-36, BW-RT 51-58, NG 12,
BW-FH 19-20)

1915

Early, at the start of his second semester at Norwich, Bill
W hurt his elbow and insisted on being treated by his mother
in Boston. She did not receive him well and immediately sent
him back. Bill had panic attacks that he perceived as heart
attacks. Every attempt to perform physical exercise caused
him to be taken to the college infirmary. After several
weeks of being unable to find anything wrong, the doctors
sent him home. This time he went to his grandparents in East
Dorset, VT. (BW-FH 21-22)

Spring, Bill W's condition worsened in East Dorset but
doctors could find nothing physically wrong. He spent much
of the early spring in bed complaining of "sinking spells."
(BW-FH 22) Later, his grandfather, Fayette, motivated him
with the prospect of opening an agency to sell automobiles.
Bill's depression lifted and he began trying to interest
people in buying automobiles. He wrote to his mother that he
nearly sold an automobile to the Bamfords (the parents of
his lost love). (BW-FH 23)

1927

On returning to NY, Bill W and Lois rented a three-room
apartment at 38 Livingston St in Brooklyn. Not big enough
for Bill's desires, he enlarged it by renting the apartment
next door and knocking out the walls between them. (BW-RT
144, LR 71, PIO 80-81)

By the end of 1927, Bill W was so depressed by his behavior
and drinking that he signed over to Lois all rights, title
and interests of his stockbroker accounts with Baylis and
Co. and Tobey and Kirk. (LR 72, PIO 82)

1934

Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him
about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill
fell into a deep depression (his "deflation at depth") and
had a profound spiritual experience after crying out "If
there be a God, will he show himself." Dr Silkworth later
assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to
what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would
later refer to this as his "white flash" or "hot flash"
experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG
19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)

1944

Summer, Bill W began twice-a-week treatment with Dr Tiebout
for debilitating episodes of depression. Some AA members
were outraged and castigated Bill for "not working the
program," "secretly drinking" and "pill taking." Bill
endured the attacks in silence. (BW-RT 299, BW-40 166, BW-FH
6, 160-161, 166, PIO 292-303, GTBT 121)

1945

Bill W started seeing psychotherapist, Dr Frances Weeks (a
Jungian) once a week on Fridays. He continued to see her
until 1949 for his episodes of depression. (BW-FH 166-167,
GB 66, PIO 334-335)

1955

After 1955 the depression that had plagued Bill W for so
long, lifted and he regained his bright outlook. However,
during 1956, his best friend, Mark Whalon, died. (PIO 359,
364)

1956

There is a link between Bill's LSD and niacin (vitamin B3)
experiences:

British radio commentator Gerald Heard introduced Bill W to
Aldous Huxley and British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and
Abram Hoffer (the founders of orthomolecular psychiatry).
Humphrey and Osmond were working with schizophrenic and
alcoholic patients at a Canadian hospital.

Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first took LSD in CA
on August 29, 1956. Medically supervised by psychiatrist
Sidney Cohen of the LA VA hospital, the LSD experiments
occurred well prior to the "hippie era" of the late 1960's.

At the time, LSD was thought to have psychotherapeutic
potential (research was also being funded by the National
Institutes of Health and National Academy of Sciences). The
intent of Osmond and Hoffer was to induce an experience
similar to the DTs in hopes that it might shock alcoholics
away from alcohol.

Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who
accepted) were Nell Wing, Father Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker
and Lois Wilson. Marty M and other AA members participated
in NY (under medical supervision by a psychiatrist from
Roosevelt Hospital).

Bill had several experiments with LSD up to 1959 (perhaps
into the early 1960's). The book "Pass It On" (PIO 368-377)
reports the full LSD story and notes that there were
repercussions within AA over these activities. Lois was a
reluctant participant and claimed to have had no response to
the chemical.

1966

Hoffer and Osmond did research that later influenced Bill,
in December 1966, to enthusiastically embrace a campaign to
promote vitamin B3 (niacin) therapy. It also created
Traditions issues within the Fellowship and caused a bit of
an uproar. The book "Pass It On" (PIO 387-391) has a fairly
full discussion.

Note:

In January 1958, Bill wrote a Grapevine article titled "The
Next Frontier: Emotional Sobriety" commenting that he had a
bad episode of depression after 1955. The article also
mentions what he did in response to it.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: George Cleveland [mailto:pauguspass@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and depression

What is the best source for information on what Bill W did
to overcome
his depression? And is there solid information on his
research with
Vitamin B therapies?

Thanks.

George Cleveland

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

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++++Message 2177. . . . . . . . . . . . Frank Lynch
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2005 11:39:00 PM

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Hello Folks,
I have been trying, with little success, to get any historical info
on Frank Lynch and his wife. I know that he was very instrumental in
helping several people to get sober in the mid- Atlantic region and
that his sponsor was Clarence Snyder. He brought meetings into St.
Elizabeth's Hospital in DC and started several regular meetings in
Southern Maryland. I also have heard it said that he died with a
resentment about his story not being published in the 3rd edition.
However I have spoken with another who had lunch with him a week
before he passed away in the mid 80's and that he was more concerned
with helping this person get sober than he was with his own physical
health.

Any information would be greatly appreciated
Billy C
Annapolis Maryland

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++++Message 2178. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: B-3 & LSD from Charlie Bishop,
Jr.
From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2005 12:02:00 AM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

There are two books published by The Bishop of Books that treat the B-3 and
LSD
questions.

The COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ. Wheeling, WV, The Bishop of Books, 1999. FIRST
EDITION, with SIGNED KURTZ BOOKPLATE. 231pp. Eleven great essays by Kurtz
over
the years, including "Bill W. & LSD." Others: William James, Lay Treatment,
AA
Spirituality, Shame, Research on A.A., etc. Kurtz, of course, is the author
of
"NOT-GOD: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous." There are only 17 copies left
out of the first edition printing of 1,000 copies. $17. + $3. USPS book rate
postage.

and ...

Bill Wilson & The Vitamin B-3 Therapy 1965-1971. Reprinted by The Bishop of
Books, Wheeling, WV, 2002, approx. 100 pages, 8.5x11" softbound. Three
communications from Bill W. to A.A.'s Physicians about the research done on
B-3.
This was NOT Conference-approved literature and was Bill's last major
project
before his death. A good number of the early oldtimers in AA took niacin
every
day. Only 3 copies left out of the second reprinting of 50 copes. $25. + $3.
USPS first class mailing.

I rarely ever post any message promoting my books and will not feel offended
in
the least if you decide not to use this; however, both items contain solid
information not available anywhere else about B-3 and LSD. As always, thanks
and servus, Charlie Bishop, Jr. (304) 242-2937 or email me at
bishopbk@comcast.net or write: 46 Eureka Ave., Wheeling, WV 26003.

amen.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2179. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W and depression
From: Theron . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2005 12:59:00 PM

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The pamphlet that Bill had published on niacin therapy was a collection of
articles by several doctors who had done research in the area. My former
sponsor (since moved out of state) had a copy and I believe I saw one at
the Akron A.A. Archives, too, if memory serves correctly (always
questionable). When searching for information on this, try using
"nicotonic acid" and "nicotinamide"; both are forms of niacin and the terms
are often used in the research literature.

The Akron Archives also has a letter from Bill W. to a member on the
subject of depression; if you get a chance to visit, be sure to ask to see
it.

Peace,

Theron

At 10:15 PM 2/10/2005, ArtSheehan wrote:

>Hi George
>
>The references in the text below offer some informative
>reading.
>
>SOURCE REFERENCES:
>
>AABB Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big
>Book, AAWS
>
>AACOA AA Comes of Age, AAWS
>
>BW-RT Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft
>cover)
>
>BW-FH Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard
>cover)
>
>BW-40 Bill W My First 40 Years,
>autobiography (hard cover)
>
>GB Getting Better Inside
>Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft cover)
>
>GTBT Grateful to Have Been There by
>Nell Wing (soft cover)
>
>LOH The Language of the Heart, AA
>Grapevine Inc
>
>LR Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
>
>NG Not God, by Ernest Kurtz
>(expanded edition, soft cover)
>
>NW New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)
>
>PIO Pass It On, AAWS
>
>1912
>
>Sept, at the beginning of the school year at Burr and
>Burton, Bill W was president of the senior class, star
>football player, star pitcher and captain of the baseball
>team and first violin in the school orchestra. (BW-FH 19)
>
>Nov 18, Bill W's schoolmate and "first love" Bertha Bamford,
>died from hemorrhaging after surgery at the Flower Hospital
>in NYC. She was the daughter of the rector of the
>Manchester, VT Zion Episcopal Church. Bill learned about it
>at school on the 19th. It began a 3-year episode of
>depression, which severely affected his performance at
>school and home. (AACOA 54, PIO 35-36, BW-RT 51-58, NG 12,
>BW-FH 19-20)
>
>1915
>
>Early, at the start of his second semester at Norwich, Bill
>W hurt his elbow and insisted on being treated by his mother
>in Boston. She did not receive him well and immediately sent
>him back. Bill had panic attacks that he perceived as heart
>attacks. Every attempt to perform physical exercise caused
>him to be taken to the college infirmary. After several
>weeks of being unable to find anything wrong, the doctors
>sent him home. This time he went to his grandparents in East
>Dorset, VT. (BW-FH 21-22)
>
>Spring, Bill W's condition worsened in East Dorset but
>doctors could find nothing physically wrong. He spent much
>of the early spring in bed complaining of "sinking spells."
>(BW-FH 22) Later, his grandfather, Fayette, motivated him
>with the prospect of opening an agency to sell automobiles.
>Bill's depression lifted and he began trying to interest
>people in buying automobiles. He wrote to his mother that he
>nearly sold an automobile to the Bamfords (the parents of
>his lost love). (BW-FH 23)
>
>1927
>
>On returning to NY, Bill W and Lois rented a three-room
>apartment at 38 Livingston St in Brooklyn. Not big enough
>for Bill's desires, he enlarged it by renting the apartment
>next door and knocking out the walls between them. (BW-RT
>144, LR 71, PIO 80-81)
>
>By the end of 1927, Bill W was so depressed by his behavior
>and drinking that he signed over to Lois all rights, title
>and interests of his stockbroker accounts with Baylis and
>Co. and Tobey and Kirk. (LR 72, PIO 82)
>
>1934
>
>Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him
>about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill
>fell into a deep depression (his "deflation at depth") and
>had a profound spiritual experience after crying out "If
>there be a God, will he show himself." Dr Silkworth later
>assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to
>what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would
>later refer to this as his "white flash" or "hot flash"
>experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG
>19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)
>
>1944
>
>Summer, Bill W began twice-a-week treatment with Dr Tiebout
>for debilitating episodes of depression. Some AA members
>were outraged and castigated Bill for "not working the
>program," "secretly drinking" and "pill taking." Bill
>endured the attacks in silence. (BW-RT 299, BW-40 166, BW-FH
>6, 160-161, 166, PIO 292-303, GTBT 121)
>
>1945
>
>Bill W started seeing psychotherapist, Dr Frances Weeks (a
>Jungian) once a week on Fridays. He continued to see her
>until 1949 for his episodes of depression. (BW-FH 166-167,
>GB 66, PIO 334-335)
>
>1955
>
>After 1955 the depression that had plagued Bill W for so
>long, lifted and he regained his bright outlook. However,
>during 1956, his best friend, Mark Whalon, died. (PIO 359,
>364)
>
>1956
>
>There is a link between Bill's LSD and niacin (vitamin B3)
>experiences:
>
>British radio commentator Gerald Heard introduced Bill W to
>Aldous Huxley and British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and
>Abram Hoffer (the founders of orthomolecular psychiatry).
>Humphrey and Osmond were working with schizophrenic and
>alcoholic patients at a Canadian hospital.
>
>Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first took LSD in CA
>on August 29, 1956. Medically supervised by psychiatrist
>Sidney Cohen of the LA VA hospital, the LSD experiments
>occurred well prior to the "hippie era" of the late 1960's.
>
>At the time, LSD was thought to have psychotherapeutic
>potential (research was also being funded by the National
>Institutes of Health and National Academy of Sciences). The
>intent of Osmond and Hoffer was to induce an experience
>similar to the DTs in hopes that it might shock alcoholics
>away from alcohol.
>
>Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who
>accepted) were Nell Wing, Father Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker
>and Lois Wilson. Marty M and other AA members participated
>in NY (under medical supervision by a psychiatrist from
>Roosevelt Hospital).
>
>Bill had several experiments with LSD up to 1959 (perhaps
>into the early 1960's). The book "Pass It On" (PIO 368-377)
>reports the full LSD story and notes that there were
>repercussions within AA over these activities. Lois was a
>reluctant participant and claimed to have had no response to
>the chemical.
>
>1966
>
>Hoffer and Osmond did research that later influenced Bill,
>in December 1966, to enthusiastically embrace a campaign to
>promote vitamin B3 (niacin) therapy. It also created
>Traditions issues within the Fellowship and caused a bit of
>an uproar. The book "Pass It On" (PIO 387-391) has a fairly
>full discussion.
>
>Note:
>
>In January 1958, Bill wrote a Grapevine article titled "The
>Next Frontier: Emotional Sobriety" commenting that he had a
>bad episode of depression after 1955. The article also
>mentions what he did in response to it.
>
>Cheers
>
>Arthur
>
> _____
>
>From: George Cleveland [mailto:pauguspass@yahoo.com]
>Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 PM
>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and depression
>
>
>
>What is the best source for information on what Bill W did
>to overcome
>his depression? And is there solid information on his
>research with
>Vitamin B therapies?
>
>Thanks.
>
>George Cleveland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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++++Message 2180. . . . . . . . . . . . Jim''s insanity... BB
From: lghforum . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/10/2005 11:25:00 PM

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A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking
begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out
anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.
Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me
identify "Jim" in this story...
"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man
has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative
automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)

Thanks!

LGH

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++++Message 2181. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Jim''s insanity... BB
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2005 9:23:00 AM

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http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story

Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another
Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there, plus a
short biography.

Bob S, Richmond, IN

-----Original Message-----
From: lghforum [mailto:lghforum@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:26 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB

A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking
begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out
anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.
Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me
identify "Jim" in this story...
"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man
has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative
automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)

Thanks!

LGH

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2182. . . . . . . . . . . . Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2005 3:07:00 PM

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The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE
notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell

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++++Message 2183. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Here Meet With Chief of Society
(Tuscon AZ 4/6/44)
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2005 2:25:00 PM

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The author of this article was a close friend of Dave S. The author was not
one of us and passed away last year at age 79. His wife, who is also close
friend, found this newspaper article in his things and copied it for Dave.
At the time of its writing (April 6, 1944) Louis was a reporter for the
Tucson Daily Star.
Anecdotally - at the time of this article Dave was 8 years old. The only
meeting of AA was held at the church he attended. He remembers playing
basketball in the courtyard while the meeting (which he didn't know was AA)
was going on in an adjacent room. Bill W. may have been in that room but
Dave was too young to know it.

Alcoholics Anonymous Here Meet With Chief of Society
By Louis Witzeman

They call him simply “Bill.” He’s the head of Alcoholics Anonymous,
national organization of men and women who were formerly alcohol addicts.
Tall, lanky, with his hair slightly grayed, he looks more like a Texas
cattleman than a Vermonter and an ex-Wall Street broker. One of the
shrewdest of amateur psychologists, he today concludes his visit to Tuscon
as the guest of the Tuscon unit of “AA.”
Bill has led an interesting life. Alcoholics Anonymous – actually there
was
no name for the group until 1939 – got its start in 1934 in Akron, Ohio,
at
a time when Bill had been pronounced an “incurable alcoholic” by medical
men. He was in Akron on a business trip and had made a failure of it.
After he had been pronounced “incurable” a few months before, he had
taken a
hospital “cure” for alcoholism and it had worked for a month. Faced by
failure, Bill saw his “cure” relaxing its hold, just as it had several
times
before.

Talked Out Of Binge
Before he lost control of himself, however, he happened to meet an Akron
doctor who was also an alcoholic. The two of them got together and talked
themselves out of going on the binge they had both contemplated. Instead,
they found the release they had sought in trying to stop other alcoholics
from other binges.
They weren’t very successful – Bill says so quite bluntly. In the first
year of their work, the two of them led just five men to recovery, the next
year ten, the next 20 and the next 60. In spite of the fact that he had
been on the receiving end of virtually every sort of cure in existence, Bill
had not found any key to what later developed into his own special knack.
Then, in 1939, he decided to put his ideas on paper. He wrote an anonymous
book, entitled it “Alcoholics Anonymous” and thus founded the
organization.
In it he finally found expression of his ideas.

Progress Swift
Once the book was written, progress became swift. Headquarters were
established in New York City and today AA adds approximately 500 members per
month. Thousands write to find out what the group has to offer.
It’s a combination of the attitudes of the preacher, the doctor and the
former alcoholic, he says. He recognizes alcoholism as a disease, one of
which no one can ever be “cured” but from which he can
“recover.” Never
when there is a chance of a relapse is there a cure, he says, and any
alcoholic stands a chance of a relapse. An alcoholic can recover by the
change in outlook advocated by the doctors or the faith advocated by the
clergy, Bill says, but it is AA’s job to provide the element which makes
the
remedy stick. That element, he says, is simply association with other
alcoholics in “converting” them.

Anonymity Used
Anonymity is the protection that allows a man to try to cure himself of his
addiction, Bill maintains.
He and the Akron doctor together founded their groups on that thesis. In
250 communities they now number 10,000 members. They have chapters in
Canada, Australia, and India in addition to those in the United States.
Traveling service men all over the world spread their work. In New York
City they maintain an office employing four full-time secretaries.
Bill’s salary is paid by a special fund created by John D. Rockefeller
which
gives him $30 per week. In addition to this, he makes approximately the
same amount from sales of his books. He and his four secretaries are the
only paid members in the entire organization of 10,000. No chapter pays any
dues for any work other than its own – there are no national dues.

Board of Trustees

A board of trustees composed of seven men manages the organization’s
financial activities in New York. This board is composed of four New York
business men and three former alcoholics. The four business men, with three
of the secretaries, are the only members of the entire group of 10,000 who
are not former alcoholics.
Tuscon’s group is small – now consisting of 14 members. It was formed
only
a few years ago. Like all groups of its sort, it permits no use of names of
members. Those interested in its work need simply write to Box 4432,
University Station. All whose names are turned in to the group will be
personally visited by a member of the group. To those interested in being
cured, AA will point out that it can cure 50 per cent of them on the first
try, and 25 per cent on the second. The remainder will either fall out
completely, or be partially cured.
Bill was paying his first visit to Tuscon last night. He came here two days
ago from the Pacific coast, where he was visiting other groups. Last night
he met members of the Tuscon group. Today he goes on eastward with his
wife, planning to visit other towns and other AA units as he goes.

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++++Message 2184. . . . . . . . . . . . court slips??? Any Info??
From: richard johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2005 7:36:00 PM

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I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in jail
or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704

>
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
>
>
> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
> died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
> 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE
> notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
> born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
> Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2185. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Jim''s insanity... BB
From: John S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2005 8:39:00 PM

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Bob,

That’s an interesting article and one I enjoyed reading, it’s also an
excellent web site I thank you so much for the information; but it doesn’t
address the original question to wit: “Who is ‘Jim’ and what else is
known
about the car salesman who used to own the agency he now works for?”

In Love,

John S.

"If you can read this, thank a teacher"
This e-mail scanned by 'Norton' anti-virus software

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:24 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story

Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another
Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there, plus a
short biography.

Bob S, Richmond, IN

-----Original Message-----
From: lghforum [mailto:lghforum@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:26 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB

A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking
begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out
anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.
Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me
identify "Jim" in this story...
"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man
has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative
automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)

Thanks!

LGH

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2186. . . . . . . . . . . . NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS
From: michael oates . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2005 6:53:00 PM

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DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR
HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP

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++++Message 2187. . . . . . . . . . . . Consolidated: Re: Jim''s insanity...
BB
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2005 10:14:00 AM

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(Several replies are consolidated below - Co-Moderator)

From:
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id
=180110428> "lghforum" <lghforum@earthlink.net> Date: Sat Feb 12,
2005 11:06pm
Bob . Thanks! But how can you tell that Ralph F. is the "Jim" who
thinks
".he could take whiskey if only he mixed it with milk!" on page 37 of
the BB 3rd Edition?

From:
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id
=6285566> TBaerMojo@aol.com Date: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:18pm
People in Alcoholics Anonymous West Baltimore Group + A. A. +
alcoholism +
recovery + aa + AA + health. Jim -- listed as 35-7 Ralph F "Jim" car
sales, mixed milk and whiskey

From: <mailto:%22Jay%20Lawyer%22%20%3cejlawyer@midtel.net%3e> "Jay
Lawyer" <ejlawyer@midtel.net> Date: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:40pm
John - Ralph Furlong is the Jim in this little story about a car
salesman. - Jay

From:
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id
=34059972> "Maxwell Clemo" <maxclem@msn.com> Date: Tue Feb 15, 2005
7:02am
Suggest you try this one........Max C.
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell30.html

-----Original Message-----

From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@i...
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/post?postID=VmKW
JL0N8jP8N0V3oCgfwmZWpoT6VnudkxGl7RqHbqevXQ3jbWEkDjHOLaAttUurJnQT-ea017
YaSkJZVwyaSz5ERM_poa0r> ] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:24 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story

Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another
Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there,
plus a
short biography. Bob S, Richmond, IN

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2188. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: court slips??? Any Info??
From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2005 8:27:00 AM

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Court slips started around here (Baltimore) in the 70's when Judge Dave
Bates , a recovering alcoholic, started sending people to AA meetings.
There was a big uproar in the 80's about whether groups should sign
slips .
Most of that has worked itself out. Some do , some don't.

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> hotshots@elltel.net 02/14/05 07:36PM >>>

I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in
jail
or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704

>
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
>
>
> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
> died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
> 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE
> notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
> born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
> Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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>

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++++Message 2189. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS
From: Margie Keith . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2005 9:26:00 AM

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Jimmy Kinnon
Wikipedia
Jimmy Kinnon

James P. Kinnon (commonly known as Jimmy Kinnon or "Jimmy K") was the
founder of Narcotics Anonymous (NA), an international association of
recovering drug addicts. During his lifetime, he was usually referred to as
"Jimmy K" due to NA's principle of personal anonymity on the public level.
It appears he never referred to himself as the founder of NA although the
record clearly shows that he played this role.

From the very start, unlike many other attempts to form self-help groups for
drug addicts, Narcotics Anonymous was based on both the Twelve Steps and the
Twelve Traditions devised by Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and adapted to the
specific needs of NA. While there is no official biography of Jimmy Kinnon,
a certain amount of pertinent information can be found on the web and in
print (see links and resources below).

Kinnon was born on 5 April, 1911 in Paisley, Scotland. On 8 August, 1923, he
arrived with his family on Ellis Island, NY. He worked as a roofer,
struggling with his drug addiction until he achieved permanent and complete
abstinence from all drugs in Alcoholics Anonymous on 2 February 1950.

He and a few other drug addicts who had met in AA started holding a series
of independent meetings for drug addicts, beginning 17 August 1953. The
first documented recovery meeting of Narcotics Anonymous was held on 5
October 1953 in Southern California. Today, members of Narcotics Anonymous
hold more than 30,000 weekly meetings in over 100 countries worldwide.

Kinnon is a key figure in the history of Narcotics Anonymous for several
reasons. He wrote several portions of the Little White Booklet, which formed
the basis for NA's basic text, published in 1983 under the title Narcotics
Anonymous (ISBN 0912075023). This book also contains his anonymous
biography, titled We Do Recover. Kinnon also designed the NA logo and served
as the volunteer office manager of NA's World Service Office from the time
it began to 1983.

Kinnon died on 9 July 1985, having spent the last 35 years of his life as a
"clean" and recovering member of Narcotics Anonymous. At the time of his
death, his daring vision of a worldwide autonomous association of recovering
drug addicts had become a reality.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

"If I ever have an epitaph on my headstone [...] it should read something
like this: All we did was sow some seeds and worked and wrought to make this
work, so that we and others could live -- in Peace, in Freedom and in Love."

James P. Kinnon, 1982

----- Original Message -----
From: michael oates
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:53 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR
HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

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Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2190. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: court slips??? Any Info??
From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2005 1:18:00 AM

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I believe one of the pieces of literature on Corrections work talks about this.

tmd

Original Message from: richard johnson [mailto:hotshots@elltel.net]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 7:36 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] court slips??? Any Info??

I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in jail or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
 
----- Original Message -----
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
>
> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell 

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++++Message 2191. . . . . . . . . . . . Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed
Webster
From: groovycharacterdefects . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2005 12:37:00 PM

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In a post concerning Ed Webster and his book, "Stools and Bottles,"
I read that one of Ed's other books, "Bar Room Reveries," is very
rare. I have a copy of "Bar Room Reveries," which I read often and
lend to friends. I was wondering if the book is valuable or
historically significant? If it is historically important, I'll be
much more careful with it in the future, to ensure preservation.

Thanks for your time
& Kind Regards,
Brian

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++++Message 2192. . . . . . . . . . . . NA History -Saturday Evening Post,
August 7, 1954
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2005 4:34:00 PM

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These Drug Addicts

Cure One Another

By Jerome Ellison

A new approach to a tragic social problem - drug addiction - has
been found by the ex-addicts of Narcotics Anonymous. Here's how they help
users
out of their horrible habit - as in the case of the mining engineer, the hot
musician, the minister and the movie actor.

Tom, a young musician just out of a job on a big-name dance band,
was pouring out the story of his heroin addiction to a small gathering in a
New
York City Y.M.C.A. He told how he started three years ago, "fooling around
for
thrills, never dreaming to get a habit." His band went on the road. One
night in
Philadelphia he ran out of his drug and became so shaky he couldn't play. It
was
the first time the band management knew of his habit. He was promptly sent
home.

"Music business is getting tough with junkies," Tom said.
His audience was sympathetic. It was composed of former drug addicts
who had found freedom from addiction. They met twice weekly to make this
freedom
secure, and worked to help other addicts achieve it. The New York group,
founded
in 1950 and called Narcotics Anonymous, is one of several which have been
piling
up evidence that the methods of Alcoholics Anonymous can help release people
from other drugs than alcohol - drugs such as opium, heroin, morphine and
the
barbiturates.

The groups enter a field where patients are many and cures few. The
population addicted to opiates has been placed by competent but incompatible
authorities at 60,000 and at 180,000. The Federal Bureau of Narcotics
estimates
that the traffic in illegal opium derivatives grosses $275,000,000 a year.
About
1000 people a month are arrested for violation of Federal, state or local
laws
regulating the opiates. Addiction to the barbiturates, it is believed,
involves
more people. There are some 1500 known compounds of barbituric acid, some of
them having pharmaceutical names and others street names such as yellow
jacket,
red devil and goofball.

Addicts work up to doses sufficient to kill a non-addicted person or
an addict with a lesser tolerance. In New York recently, three young addicts
met
and took equal portions of heroin. Two felt no unusual reactions; the third
went
into convulsions and in a few hours was dead. Many barbiturate users daily
consume quantities, which would be lethal to a normal person. Others have
demonstrated an ability to use barbiturates for years, under medical
supervision, without raising their consumption to dangerous levels.

The drug addict, like the alcoholic, has long been an enigma to
those who want to help him. Real contact is most likely to be made, on a
principle demonstrated with phenomenal success by Alcoholics Anonymous, by
another addict. Does the prospect, writhing with shame, confess to pilfering
from his wife's purse to buy drugs? His sponsor once took his children's
lunch
money. Did he steal the black bag of a loyal family doctor? As a ruse to
flimflam druggists, his new friend once impersonated a doctor for several
months. The N.A. member first shares his shame with the newcomer. Then he
shares
his hope and finally, sometimes, his recovery.

To date, the A.A. type of group therapy has been an effective
ingredient of "cures" - the word as used here means no drugs for a year or
more
and an intent of permanent abstinence. - in at least 200 cases. Some of
these,
including Dan, the founder of the New York group, had been pronounced
medically
hopeless. The "Narco" Group in the United States Public Health Service
Hospital
at Lexington, Kentucky, has a transient membership of about eighty men and
women
patients. The group mails a monthly newsletter, The Key, free to those who
want
it, currently a list of 500 names. Many of these are interested but
nonaddicted friends. Most are "mail-order members" of the group-addicts who
have
left the hospital and been without drugs for periods ranging from a few
weeks to
several years. The H.F.D. (Habit Forming Drug) Group is a loosely affiliated
fellowship of California ex-addicts who keep "clean" - the addicts term for
a
state of abstinence- by attending Alcoholics Anonymous meetings with
volunteer
A.A. sponsors. The Federal prison at Lorton, Virginia, has a prisoner group
which attracts thirty men to its weekly meetings. Narcotics Anonymous in New
York is the sole "free world"-outside of institution-group which conducts
its
own weekly open-to-the-public meetings in the A.A. tradition.

Today's groups of former addicts mark the convergence of two
historic narratives, one having to do with alcohol, the other with opium.
References to the drug of the poppies go back to 4000 B.C. According to
Homer,
Helen of Troy used it in a beverage guaranteed to abolish care. Opium was
employed to quiet noisy children as early as 1552 B.C. De Quincy and
Coleridge
are among the famous men to whom it brought disaster. In its dual role it
appears today, through its derivatives, as the friend of man in surgery and
his
enemy in addiction.

The alcoholic strand of the story may be taken up in the Zurich
office of the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, one day late in 1933. At that
time
the eminent doctor was obliged to impart an unpleasant bit of news to one of
his
patients, an American businessman who had come for help with a desperate
drinking problem. After months of effort and repeated relapses, the doctor
admitted that his treatment had been a failure.

"Is there, then," the patient asked, "no hope?" Only if a profound
religious experience were undergone, he was told. How, he wanted to know,
could
such an experience be had? It could not be obtained on order, the doctor
said,
but if one associated with religious-minded people for a while _______

Narcotics Anonymous - A.A.'s Young Brother

The American interested himself in Frank Buchman's Oxford Group,
found sobriety, and told an inebriate friend of his experience. The friend
sobered up and took the message to a former drinking partner, a New York
stockbroker named Bill. Though he was an agnostic who had never had much use
for
religion, Bill sobered up. Late in 1935, while on a business trip to Akron,
Ohio, he was struck by the thought that he wouldn't be able to keep his
sobriety
unless he passed on the message. He sought out a heavy drinking local
surgeon
named Bob and told him the story to date. They sat down and formulated a
program
for staying sober-a program featuring twelve Suggested Steps and called
Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill devoted full time to carrying the A.A. message,
and
the news spread. The now-famous article by Jack Alexander in The Saturday
Evening Post of March 1, 1941, made it nationally known, and by 1944 there
were
A.A. groups in the major cities.

In June of that year an inebriate mining engineer whom we'll call
Houston "hit bottom" with his drinking in Montgomery, Alabama, and the local
A.A.'s dried him up. Houston gobbled the A.A. program and began helping
other
alcoholics. One of the drunks he worked with-a sales executive who can be
called
Harry-was involved not only with alcohol but also morphine. A.A. took care
of
the alcoholic factor, but left Harry's drug habit unchanged. Interested and
baffled, Houston watched his new friend struggle in his strange
self-constructed
trap.

The opiate theme of the narrative now reappears. Harry's pattern had
been to get roaring drunk, take morphine to avoid a hang-over, get drunk
again
and take morphine again. Thus he became "hooked"-addicted. He drove through
a
red light one day and was stopped by a policeman. The officer found morphine
and
turned him over to Federal jurisdiction, with the result that Harry spent
twenty-seven months at Lexington, where both voluntary and involuntary
patients
are accommodated, as a prisoner. After his discharge he met Houston and,
through
A.A., found relief from the booze issue. The drug problem continued to
plague
him.

During this period, Houston, through one of those coincidences which
A.A.'s like to attribute to a Higher Power, was transferred by his employers
to
Frankfort, Kentucky, just a few miles from Lexington. "Harry's troubles kept
jumping through my brain," Houston says. "I was convinced that the twelve
Suggested Steps would work as well for drugs as for alcohol if
conscientiously
applied. One day I called on Dr. V.H. Vogel, the medical officer then in
charge
at Lexington. I told him of our work with Harry and offered to assist in
starting a group in the hospital. Doctor Vogel accepted the offer and on
Feb.
16, 1947, the first meeting was held. Weekly meetings have been going on
ever
since."

The Phenomenon of "Physical Dependence"

Some months later, in a strangely woven web of coincidence, Harry
reappeared at "Narco" as a voluntary patient and began attending meetings.
He
was discharged, relapsed, and in short time was back again. "This time," he
says, "it clicked." He has now been free from both alcohol and drugs for
more
than five years. Twice he has returned to tell his story at meetings, in the
A.A. tradition of passing on the good word.

In the fall of 1948 there arrived at Lexington an addict named Dan
who had been there before. It was, in fact, his seventh trip; the doctors
assumed that he'd continue his periodic visits until he died. This same Dan
later founded the small but significant Narcotics Anonymous group in New
York.
Dan's personal history is the story of an apparently incurable addict
apparently
cured.

An emotionally unsettled childhood is the rule among addicts, and
Dan's childhood follows the pattern. His mother died when he was three years
old, his father when he was four. He was adopted by a spinster physician and
spent his boyhood with his foster mother, a resident doctor in a Kansas City
hospital, and with her relatives in Missouri and Illinois. When he was
sixteen
he developed an ear ailment and was given opiates to relieve the pain.
During
and after an operation to correct the condition he received frequent
morphine
injections. Enjoying the mood of easy, floating forgetfulness they induced,
he
malingered.

Living in a large hospital gave Dan opportunities to pilfer drugs,
and for six months he managed keep himself regularly supplied. An addict at
the
hospital taught him how to inject himself, so for a time he was able to
recapture the mood at will. He was embarrassing his foster mother
professionally, however, and though not yet acknowledging the fact to
himself,
was becoming known locally as an addict. Sources of drugs began to close up,
and
one day there was no morphine to be had. He went into an uncontrollable
panic
which grew worse each hour.

There followed muscular cramps, diarrhea, a freely running nose, tears
gushing
from his eyes, and two sleepless, terror-filled days and nights. It was
Dan's
first experience with the mysterious withdrawal sickness which is
experienced
sooner or later by every addict.

In one of the strangest phenomena known to medicine, the body
adjusts to the invasion of certain drugs, altering its chemistry in a few
weeks
to a basis-called "physical dependence"-on which it can no longer function
properly without the drug. How physical dependence differs from habit may be
illustrated by imagining a habitual gum chewer deprived of gum. His unease
would
be due to the denial of habit. If he were denied gum and also water, on
which he
is physically dependent, he'd feel an increasingly painful craving called
thirst. The drug addict's craving is called the "abstinence syndrome," or
withdrawal sickness. In extreme cases it includes everything Dan
experienced,
plus hallucinations and convulsions. Withdrawal of opiates rarely causes the
death of a healthy person; sudden cessation of barbiturates has been known
to.
The violent phase, which is usually over in two to three days, may under
expert
care be largely avoided. Physical dependence gradually diminishes and
ordinary
habit, of the gum-chewing type, asserts itself.

This is the interval of greatest vulner-ability, N.A. members say,
to the addict's inevitable good resolutions. He has formed the habit of
using
his drugs when he feels low. If he breaks off medical supervision before he
is
physically and medically back to par, the temptation to relapse may be
overwhelming. It is in this period, Dan says, that the addict most needs the
kind of understanding he finds in N.A. If he yields to the call of habit,
physical dependence is quickly reestablished and his body calls for ever
greater
doses as the price of peace.

Dan went through the cycle dozens of times. Besides the half dozen
withdrawals at Lexington, there were several at city and state institutions,
and
numerous attempts at self-withdrawal. He tried sudden and complete
abstinence,
the "cold-turkey" method. He tried relieving the withdrawal pangs with
alcohol,
and found it only cancelled out his ability to think, so he automatically
returned to drugs. When he attempted withdrawal with barbiturates he "just
about
went goofy."

All this, however, was to come later; in his early twenties he had
no intention of giving up the use of drugs. Having been spotted as an addict
in
the Kansas City area, he sought fresh fields. He found a job as a salesman
and
traveled several Midwest states. The demands of his habit and his scrapes
with
the law made it hard to hold a job long. Drifting from one employment to
another, he found himself, in the early 1930's in Brooklyn.

His attempts at withdrawal resulted in several extended periods of
abstinence, the longest of which was three years. When off drugs Dan was an
able
sales executive and a good provider. He married a Staten Island girl. They
had a
son. Dan continued to have short relapses, however. Each new one put a
further
strain on the family tie. For a time, to save money for drugs, he used slugs
in
the subway turnstiles going to and from work. He was spotted by a subway
detective and spent two days in jail. A month later he was caught passing a
forged morphine prescription. As a result, he was among the first prisoner
patients at the new United States Public Health Service Hospital for addicts
at
Lexington, when it was opened on May 28, 1935.

After a year there, he made a supreme effort to be rid of drugs for
good. To keep away from the temptations offered by New York drug pushers he
found a job with a large Midwest dairy. He worked hard, saved his money and
sent
for his family. By this time, however, it was too late; his wife refused to
come, and a divorce action was begun. "Her rebuff gave me what I thought was
a
good excuse to go back on drugs," Dan reports. After that, his deterioration
accelerated. On his seventh trip to Lexington, in 1948, he was in a profound
depression.

After a month of sullen silence, he began attending the group
meetings, which were a new feature at the hospital since his last trip. "I
still
wouldn't talk," he reports, "But I did some listening. I was impressed by
what
Houston had to say. Harry came back one time and told us his story. For the
first time, I began to pray. I was only praying that I would die, but at
least
it was a prayer," He did not die, nor did he recover. Within six months of
his
discharge he was found in possession of drugs and sent back to Lexington for
a
year-his eighth and, as it turned out, final trip.

"This time things were different," he says. "Everything Houston and
Harry had been saying suddenly made sense. There was a lawyer from a
Southern
city there at the time, and a Midwestern surgeon. They were in the same mood
I
was-disgusted with themselves and really ready to change. The three of us
used
to have long talks with Houston every Saturday morning, besides the regular
meetings." All three recently celebrated the fifth anniversary of their
emancipation from the drug habit.

Dan, conscious of what seemed to him a miraculous change of
attitude, returned to New York full of enthusiasm and hope. The twelfth of
the
Suggested Steps was to pass on the message to others who needed help. He
proposed to form the first outside-of-institution group and call it
Narcotics
Anonymous-N.A. He contacted other Lexington alumni and suggested they start
weekly meetings.

There were certain difficulties. Addicts are not outstandingly
gregarious, and when all the excuses were in only three-a house painter
named
Charlie, a barber named Henry and a waiter we'll call George-were on hand
for
the first meeting. There was uncertainty about where this would be; nobody
it
seemed wanted the addicts around. Besides, missionary, or "twelfth step,"
work
of the new group would be hampered by the law. When the A.A. member is on an
errand of mercy he can, if occasion warrants, administer appropriate
"medicine"
to stave off shakes or delirium long enough to talk a little sense into the
prospect. If the N.A. member did so, he'd risk a long term in jail. Drug
peddlers were not enthusiastic about the new venture. Rumors were
circulating
discrediting the group.

Out of the gloom, however, came unexpected rays of friendliness and
help. The Salvation Army made room for meetings at its 46th Street
cafeteria.
Later the McBurney Y.M.C.A., on 23rd Street, offered a meeting room. Two
doctors
backed their oral support by sending patients to meetings. Two other doctors
agreed to serve on an advisory board.

There were slips and backslidings. Meetings were sometimes marred by
obstinacy and temper. But three of the original four remained faithful and
the
group slowly grew. Difficult matters of policy were worked out by trial and
error. Some members once thought that a satisfactory withdrawal could be
made at
home. Some hard nights were endured and it was concluded that the doctors
were
right-for a proper drug withdrawal institutional care is necessary. Addicts
are
not admitted to meetings while using drugs. Newcomers are advised to make
their
withdrawal first, then come to N.A. to learn to live successfully without
drugs.

Group statisticians estimate that 5000 inquiries have been answered,
constituting a heavy drain on the group's treasury. Some 600 addicts have
attended one or more meetings, 90 have attained effective living without
drugs.
One of these is a motion picture celebrity, now doing well on his own. One
relapse after the first exposure to N.A. principles seems to have been about
par, though a number have not found this necessary. "A key fact of which few
addicts are aware," Dan says, "is that once he's been addicted, a person can
never again take even one dose of any habit-forming drug, including alcohol
and
the barbiturates, without running into trouble."

The weekly "open"-to the public-meetings are attended by ten to
thirty persons-addicts, their friends and families and concerned outsiders.
The
room is small and, on Friday evenings when more than twenty-five turn up,
crowded.

There is an interval of chitchat and visiting, and then, about nine
o'clock, the secretary, a Brooklyn housewife, mother and department -store
cashier, opens the meeting. In this ceremony all repeat the well-known
prayer:
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage
to
change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." The
secretary
then introduces a leader-a member who presents the speakers and renders
interlocutor's comments from his own experience with a drugless life. The
speakers-traditionally two in an evening-describe their adventures with
drugs
and with N.A. In two months of meetings I heard a score of these case
histories.
I also charted the progress of a newcomer, the young musician named Tom,
whose
first N.A. meeting coincided with my own first reportorial visit.

Within the undeviating certainties of addiction, individual
histories reveal a wide assortment of personal variations. Harold, an
optometrist, is a "medical" addict; he got his habit from the prescription
pad
of a doctor who was treating him for osteomyelitis. An outspoken advocate of
psychotherapy for all, Harold absorbs a certain amount of ribbing as the
groups
"psychiatric salesman." Florence, the housewife-cashier-secretary, recently
celebrated her first anniversary of freedom from morphine, which she first
received twenty-five years ago in a prescription for the relief of menstrual
cramps. Carl, an electrician, became interested in the effects of opium
smoke
thirty years ago, and reached a point where he could not function without
his
daily pipe. He eventually switched to heroin and his troubles multiplied.

Manny, an executive in a high-pressure advertising agency, and
Marian, a registered nurse with heavy administrative responsibilities began
using morphine to relieve fatigue. Don, Marian's husband, regards alcohol as
his
main addictive drug, but had a bad brush with self-prescribed barbiturates
before he came to A.A. and then, with Marian, to N.A. Pat, another young
advertising man, nearly died of poisoning from the barbiturates to which he
had
become heavily addicted. Harold and Carl have now been four years without
drugs;
Manny, three; Marian, Don and Pat, one.

Perhaps a third of the membership are graduates of the teen-age
heroin fad which swept our larger cities a few years ago, and which still
enjoys
as much of a vogue as dope peddlers can promote among the present teen-age
population. Rita, an attractive daughter of Spanish-American Harlem, was one
of
the group's first members. Along with a number of her classmates, she began
by
smoking marihuana cigarettes-a typical introduction to drugs-then took
heroin
"for thrills." She used the drug four years, became desperately ill, went to
Lexington and has now been free of the habit four years. Fred, a war hero,
became a heroin addict because he wanted friends. In the teen-age gang to
which
he aspired, being hooked was a badge of distinction. He sought out the
pusher
who frequented the vicinity of his high school and got hooked. There
followed
seven miserable and dangerous years, two of them in combat and one in a
veteran's hospital. In December of 1953 he came to N.A. and, he says,
"really
found friends."

Lawrence's story is the happiest of all. He came to N.A. early in
his first addiction, just out of high school, just married, thoroughly
alarmed
at discovering he was addicted, and desperately seeking a way out. N.A.
friends
recommended that he get "blue-grassed," an arrangement by which a patient
may
commit himself under a local statute to remain at Lexington 135 days for
what
the doctors consider a really adequate treatment. He attended meetings in
the
hospital and more meetings when he got home. Now happy and grateful, he
thanks
N.A. His boss recently presented him with a promotion; his wife recently
presented him with a son.

Besides the Friday open meeting there is a Tuesday closed meeting at
the Y for addicts only. As a special dispensation I was permitted to attend
a
closed meeting, the purpose of which is to discuss the daily application of
the
twelve steps.

The step under discussion the night I was there was No.4:"Make a
searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." The point was raised
as to
whether this step might degenerate into self-recrimination and do more harm
than
good. Old-timers asserted that this was not the proper application. A life
of
drug addiction, they said, often built up an abnormal load of guilt and
fear,
which could become so oppressive as to threaten a relapse unless dealt with.
When the addict used step 4 honestly to face up to his past, guilt and fear
diminished and he could make constructive plans for his future.

The Narco meetings at Lexington have borne other fruit. There was
Charlie, the young GI from Washington, D.C., who once looted first-aid kits
in
the gun tubs of a Navy transport en route to the Philippines and took his
first
morphine out of sheer curiosity. After his Army discharge his curiosity led
him
to heroin and several bad years; then to Lexington, where the Narco Group
struck
a spark. He heard about Dan's work, went to New York to see him, and on his
return to Washington looked around to see what he could do. He discovered
that
there was a concentration of addicts in the Federal penitentiary at Lorton,
Virginia. Working with Alcoholics Anonymous, which already had meetings in
the
prison, he obtained permission to start a group like the one at Lexington.
Now a
year old, these meetings, called the Notrol Group- Lorton backward-attract
the
regular attendance of about thirty addicts. Washington has no free-world
group,
but Charlie helps a lot of addicts on an individual basis, steering them to
A.A.
meetings for doctrine.

Friendliness of ex-drug addicts with former devotees of alcohol
sometimes occurs, though Bill, the same who figured so prominently in A.A.'s
founding, says a fraternal attitude cannot be depended upon. The average
A.A.,
he says, would merely look blank if asked about drug addiction, and rightly
reply that this specialty is outside his understanding. There are, however,
a
few A.A.'s who have been addicted both to alcohol and drugs, and these
sometimes
function as "bridge members."

"If the addict substitutes the word 'drugs' whenever he hears
'alcohol' in the A.A. program, he'll be helped," Houston says. Many
ex-addicts,
in the larger population centers where meetings run to attendances of
hundreds,
attend A.A. meetings. The H.F.D. (Habit-Forming Drug) Group, which is
activated
by an energetic ex-addict and ex-alcoholic of the Los Angeles area named
Betty,
has dozens of members, but no meeting of its own. Individual ex-addicts who
are
"making it" the A.A. way include a minister in a South-eastern state, a
politician in the deep South, a motion-picture mogul in California and an
eminent surgeon of an Eastern city. The role call of ex-addict groups is
small.
There is the parent Narco Group, Addicts Anonymous, P.O. Box 2000,
Lexington,
KY; Narcotics Anonymous, P.O. Box 3, Village Station, New York 14, N.Y.;
Notrol
Group, c/o U.S. Penitentiary, Lorton, Va.; H.D.F. Group, c/o Secretary, Bay
Area
Rehabilitation Center, 1458 26th St., Santa Monica, Calif.

A frequent and relevant question asked by the casually interested
is, "But I thought habit-forming drugs were illegal-where do they get the
stuff?" The answer involves an interesting bit of history explaining how
opiates
come to be illegal. In the early 1800's doctors used them freely to treat
the
innumerable ills then lumped under the heading, "nervousness." Hypodermic
injection of morphine was introduced in 1856. By 1880, opium and morphine
preparations were common drugstore items. An 1882 survey estimated that 1
per
cent of the population was addicted, and the public became alarmed. A wave
of
legislation swept the country, beginning in 1885 with an Ohio statute and
culminating in the Federal Harrison Narcotic Law of 1914. Immediately after
the
passage of this prohibitory law, prices of opium, morphine and heroin
soared. A
fantastically profitable black market developed. Today, $3000 worth of
heroin
purchased abroad brings $300,000 when finally cut, packaged and sold in
America.

Among the judges, social workers and doctors with whom I talked
there is a growing feeling that the Harrison Act needs to be re-examined.
Dr.
Hubert S. Howe, a former Columbia professor of neurology and authority on
narcotics, says the statute, like the Volstead Act, "removed the traffic in
narcotic drugs from lawful hands and gave it to criminals." In an address
before
the New York State Medical Society he asserted that the financial props
could be
knocked from the illegal industry by minor revisions of present laws and
rulings, with no risk of addiction becoming more widespread. Doctor Howe
proposes a system of regulation similar to that of the United Kingdom, which
reports only 364 addicts.

Meanwhile the lot of those who become involved with what our British
cousins rightly call "dangerous drugs" is grim. It is just slightly less
grim
than it might have been five years ago. Since then a few addicts have found
a
way back from the nightmare alleys of addiction to a normal life which may
seem
humdrum enough at times, but which when lost, then regained, is found to be
a
glory.

Source: The Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2193. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: NA History -Saturday Evening
Post, August 7, 1954
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2005 2:18:00 PM

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Hi Folks,
It was a pleasant surprise to receive the Saturday Evening Post article on
Narcotics Anonymous authored by Jerome Ellison, whom we called Jerry. Jerry
wrote a very nice spiritual biography called "Report to the Creator" which
detailed his own drinking life and recovery. I visited him once in his home
in Guilford, Connecticut. He was also the author of "Twelve Steps and the
Older Member," a Grapevine series which he later published privately as a
book.
He passed away many years ago, but did stay sober all his life.
Mel Barger
~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954

>
> These Drug Addicts
>
> Cure One Another
>
>
>
> By Jerome Ellison
>
>
> A new approach to a tragic social problem - drug addiction -
> has been found by the ex-addicts of Narcotics Anonymous. Here's how they
> help users out of their horrible habit - as in the case of the mining
> engineer, the hot musician, the minister and the movie actor.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tom, a young musician just out of a job on a big-name dance
> band, was pouring out the story of his heroin addiction to a small
> gathering in a New York City Y.M.C.A. He told how he started three years
> ago, "fooling around for thrills, never dreaming to get a habit." His band
> went on the road. One night in Philadelphia he ran out of his drug and
> became so shaky he couldn't play. It was the first time the band
> management knew of his habit. He was promptly sent home.
>
> "Music business is getting tough with junkies," Tom said.
>
> His audience was sympathetic. It was composed of former drug
> addicts who had found freedom from addiction. They met twice weekly to
> make this freedom secure, and worked to help other addicts achieve it. The
> New York group, founded in 1950 and called Narcotics Anonymous, is one of
> several which have been piling up evidence that the methods of Alcoholics
> Anonymous can help release people from other drugs than alcohol - drugs
> such as opium, heroin, morphine and the barbiturates.
>
> The groups enter a field where patients are many and cures few.
> The population addicted to opiates has been placed by competent but
> incompatible authorities at 60,000 and at 180,000. The Federal Bureau of
> Narcotics estimates that the traffic in illegal opium derivatives grosses
> $275,000,000 a year. About 1000 people a month are arrested for violation
> of Federal, state or local laws regulating the opiates. Addiction to the
> barbiturates, it is believed, involves more people. There are some 1500
> known compounds of barbituric acid, some of them having pharmaceutical
> names and others street names such as yellow jacket, red devil and
> goofball.
>
> Addicts work up to doses sufficient to kill a non-addicted
> person or an addict with a lesser tolerance. In New York recently, three
> young addicts met and took equal portions of heroin. Two felt no unusual
> reactions; the third went into convulsions and in a few hours was dead.
> Many barbiturate users daily consume quantities, which would be lethal to
> a normal person. Others have demonstrated an ability to use barbiturates
> for years, under medical supervision, without raising their consumption to
> dangerous levels.
>
> The drug addict, like the alcoholic, has long been an enigma to
> those who want to help him. Real contact is most likely to be made, on a
> principle demonstrated with phenomenal success by Alcoholics Anonymous, by
> another addict. Does the prospect, writhing with shame, confess to
> pilfering from his wife's purse to buy drugs? His sponsor once took his
> children's lunch money. Did he steal the black bag of a loyal family
> doctor? As a ruse to flimflam druggists, his new friend once impersonated
> a doctor for several months. The N.A. member first shares his shame with
> the newcomer. Then he shares his hope and finally, sometimes, his
> recovery.
>
> To date, the A.A. type of group therapy has been an effective
> ingredient of "cures" - the word as used here means no drugs for a year or
> more and an intent of permanent abstinence. - in at least 200 cases. Some
> of these, including Dan, the founder of the New York group, had been
> pronounced medically hopeless. The "Narco" Group in the United States
> Public Health Service Hospital at Lexington, Kentucky, has a transient
> membership of about eighty men and women patients. The group mails a
> monthly newsletter, The Key, free to those who want it, currently a list
> of 500 names. Many of these are interested but nonaddicted
> friends. Most are "mail-order members" of the group-addicts who have left
> the hospital and been without drugs for periods ranging from a few weeks
> to several years. The H.F.D. (Habit Forming Drug) Group is a loosely
> affiliated fellowship of California ex-addicts who keep "clean" - the
> addicts term for a state of abstinence- by attending Alcoholics Anonymous
> meetings with volunteer A.A. sponsors. The Federal prison at Lorton,
> Virginia, has a prisoner group which attracts thirty men to its weekly
> meetings. Narcotics Anonymous in New York is the sole "free world"-outside
> of institution-group which conducts its own weekly open-to-the-public
> meetings in the A.A. tradition.
>
> Today's groups of former addicts mark the convergence of two
> historic narratives, one having to do with alcohol, the other with opium.
> References to the drug of the poppies go back to 4000 B.C. According to
> Homer, Helen of Troy used it in a beverage guaranteed to abolish care.
> Opium was employed to quiet noisy children as early as 1552 B.C. De Quincy
> and Coleridge are among the famous men to whom it brought disaster. In its
> dual role it appears today, through its derivatives, as the friend of man
> in surgery and his enemy in addiction.
>
> The alcoholic strand of the story may be taken up in the Zurich
> office of the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, one day late in 1933. At that
> time the eminent doctor was obliged to impart an unpleasant bit of news to
> one of his patients, an American businessman who had come for help with a
> desperate drinking problem. After months of effort and repeated relapses,
> the doctor admitted that his treatment had been a failure.
>
> "Is there, then," the patient asked, "no hope?" Only if a
> profound religious experience were undergone, he was told. How, he wanted
> to know, could such an experience be had? It could not be obtained on
> order, the doctor said, but if one associated with religious-minded people
> for a while _______
>
>
>
> Narcotics Anonymous - A.A.'s Young Brother
>
>
>
> The American interested himself in Frank Buchman's Oxford
> Group, found sobriety, and told an inebriate friend of his experience. The
> friend sobered up and took the message to a former drinking partner, a New
> York stockbroker named Bill. Though he was an agnostic who had never had
> much use for religion, Bill sobered up. Late in 1935, while on a business
> trip to Akron, Ohio, he was struck by the thought that he wouldn't be able
> to keep his sobriety unless he passed on the message. He sought out a
> heavy drinking local surgeon named Bob and told him the story to date.
> They sat down and formulated a program for staying sober-a program
> featuring twelve Suggested Steps and called Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill
> devoted full time to carrying the A.A. message, and the news spread. The
> now-famous article by Jack Alexander in The Saturday Evening Post of March
> 1, 1941, made it nationally known, and by 1944 there were A.A. groups in
> the major cities.
>
> In June of that year an inebriate mining engineer whom we'll
> call Houston "hit bottom" with his drinking in Montgomery, Alabama, and
> the local A.A.'s dried him up. Houston gobbled the A.A. program and began
> helping other alcoholics. One of the drunks he worked with-a sales
> executive who can be called Harry-was involved not only with alcohol but
> also morphine. A.A. took care of the alcoholic factor, but left Harry's
> drug habit unchanged. Interested and baffled, Houston watched his new
> friend struggle in his strange self-constructed trap.
>
> The opiate theme of the narrative now reappears. Harry's
> pattern had been to get roaring drunk, take morphine to avoid a hang-over,
> get drunk again and take morphine again. Thus he became "hooked"-addicted.
> He drove through a red light one day and was stopped by a policeman. The
> officer found morphine and turned him over to Federal jurisdiction, with
> the result that Harry spent twenty-seven months at Lexington, where both
> voluntary and involuntary patients are accommodated, as a prisoner. After
> his discharge he met Houston and, through A.A., found relief from the
> booze issue. The drug problem continued to plague him.
>
> During this period, Houston, through one of those coincidences
> which A.A.'s like to attribute to a Higher Power, was transferred by his
> employers to Frankfort, Kentucky, just a few miles from Lexington.
> "Harry's troubles kept jumping through my brain," Houston says. "I was
> convinced that the twelve Suggested Steps would work as well for drugs as
> for alcohol if conscientiously applied. One day I called on Dr. V.H.
> Vogel, the medical officer then in charge at Lexington. I told him of our
> work with Harry and offered to assist in starting a group in the hospital.
> Doctor Vogel accepted the offer and on Feb. 16, 1947, the first meeting
> was held. Weekly meetings have been going on ever since."
>
>
>
> The Phenomenon of "Physical Dependence"
>
>
>
> Some months later, in a strangely woven web of coincidence,
> Harry reappeared at "Narco" as a voluntary patient and began attending
> meetings. He was discharged, relapsed, and in short time was back again.
> "This time," he says, "it clicked." He has now been free from both alcohol
> and drugs for more than five years. Twice he has returned to tell his
> story at meetings, in the A.A. tradition of passing on the good word.
>
> In the fall of 1948 there arrived at Lexington an addict named
> Dan who had been there before. It was, in fact, his seventh trip; the
> doctors assumed that he'd continue his periodic visits until he died. This
> same Dan later founded the small but significant Narcotics Anonymous group
> in New York. Dan's personal history is the story of an apparently
> incurable addict apparently cured.
>
> An emotionally unsettled childhood is the rule among addicts,
> and Dan's childhood follows the pattern. His mother died when he was three
> years old, his father when he was four. He was adopted by a spinster
> physician and spent his boyhood with his foster mother, a resident doctor
> in a Kansas City hospital, and with her relatives in Missouri and
> Illinois. When he was sixteen he developed an ear ailment and was given
> opiates to relieve the pain. During and after an operation to correct the
> condition he received frequent morphine injections. Enjoying the mood of
> easy, floating forgetfulness they induced, he malingered.
>
> Living in a large hospital gave Dan opportunities to pilfer
> drugs, and for six months he managed keep himself regularly supplied. An
> addict at the hospital taught him how to inject himself, so for a time he
> was able to recapture the mood at will. He was embarrassing his foster
> mother professionally, however, and though not yet acknowledging the fact
> to himself, was becoming known locally as an addict. Sources of drugs
> began to close up, and one day there was no morphine to be had. He went
> into an uncontrollable panic which grew worse each hour.
>
> There followed muscular cramps, diarrhea, a freely running nose, tears
> gushing from his eyes, and two sleepless, terror-filled days and nights.
> It was Dan's first experience with the mysterious withdrawal sickness
> which is experienced sooner or later by every addict.
>
> In one of the strangest phenomena known to medicine, the body
> adjusts to the invasion of certain drugs, altering its chemistry in a few
> weeks to a basis-called "physical dependence"-on which it can no longer
> function properly without the drug. How physical dependence differs from
> habit may be illustrated by imagining a habitual gum chewer deprived of
> gum. His unease would be due to the denial of habit. If he were denied gum
> and also water, on which he is physically dependent, he'd feel an
> increasingly painful craving called thirst. The drug addict's craving is
> called the "abstinence syndrome," or withdrawal sickness. In extreme cases
> it includes everything Dan experienced, plus hallucinations and
> convulsions. Withdrawal of opiates rarely causes the death of a healthy
> person; sudden cessation of barbiturates has been known to. The violent
> phase, which is usually over in two to three days, may under expert care
> be largely avoided. Physical dependence gradually diminishes and ordinary
> habit, of the gum-chewing type, asserts itself.
>
> This is the interval of greatest vulner-ability, N.A. members
> say, to the addict's inevitable good resolutions. He has formed the habit
> of using his drugs when he feels low. If he breaks off medical supervision
> before he is physically and medically back to par, the temptation to
> relapse may be overwhelming. It is in this period, Dan says, that the
> addict most needs the kind of understanding he finds in N.A. If he yields
> to the call of habit, physical dependence is quickly reestablished and his
> body calls for ever greater doses as the price of peace.
>
> Dan went through the cycle dozens of times. Besides the half
> dozen withdrawals at Lexington, there were several at city and state
> institutions, and numerous attempts at self-withdrawal. He tried sudden
> and complete abstinence, the "cold-turkey" method. He tried relieving the
> withdrawal pangs with alcohol, and found it only cancelled out his ability
> to think, so he automatically returned to drugs. When he attempted
> withdrawal with barbiturates he "just about went goofy."
>
> All this, however, was to come later; in his early twenties he
> had no intention of giving up the use of drugs. Having been spotted as an
> addict in the Kansas City area, he sought fresh fields. He found a job as
> a salesman and traveled several Midwest states. The demands of his habit
> and his scrapes with the law made it hard to hold a job long. Drifting
> from one employment to another, he found himself, in the early 1930's in
> Brooklyn.
>
> His attempts at withdrawal resulted in several extended periods
> of abstinence, the longest of which was three years. When off drugs Dan
> was an able sales executive and a good provider. He married a Staten
> Island girl. They had a son. Dan continued to have short relapses,
> however. Each new one put a further strain on the family tie. For a time,
> to save money for drugs, he used slugs in the subway turnstiles going to
> and from work. He was spotted by a subway detective and spent two days in
> jail. A month later he was caught passing a forged morphine prescription.
> As a result, he was among the first prisoner patients at the new United
> States Public Health Service Hospital for addicts at Lexington, when it
> was opened on May 28, 1935.
>
> After a year there, he made a supreme effort to be rid of drugs
> for good. To keep away from the temptations offered by New York drug
> pushers he found a job with a large Midwest dairy. He worked hard, saved
> his money and sent for his family. By this time, however, it was too late;
> his wife refused to come, and a divorce action was begun. "Her rebuff gave
> me what I thought was a good excuse to go back on drugs," Dan reports.
> After that, his deterioration accelerated. On his seventh trip to
> Lexington, in 1948, he was in a profound depression.
>
> After a month of sullen silence, he began attending the group
> meetings, which were a new feature at the hospital since his last trip. "I
> still wouldn't talk," he reports, "But I did some listening. I was
> impressed by what Houston had to say. Harry came back one time and told us
> his story. For the first time, I began to pray. I was only praying that I
> would die, but at least it was a prayer," He did not die, nor did he
> recover. Within six months of his discharge he was found in possession of
> drugs and sent back to Lexington for a year-his eighth and, as it turned
> out, final trip.
>
> "This time things were different," he says. "Everything Houston
> and Harry had been saying suddenly made sense. There was a lawyer from a
> Southern city there at the time, and a Midwestern surgeon. They were in
> the same mood I was-disgusted with themselves and really ready to change.
> The three of us used to have long talks with Houston every Saturday
> morning, besides the regular meetings." All three recently celebrated the
> fifth anniversary of their emancipation from the drug habit.
>
> Dan, conscious of what seemed to him a miraculous change of
> attitude, returned to New York full of enthusiasm and hope. The twelfth of
> the Suggested Steps was to pass on the message to others who needed help.
> He proposed to form the first outside-of-institution group and call it
> Narcotics Anonymous-N.A. He contacted other Lexington alumni and suggested
> they start weekly meetings.
>
> There were certain difficulties. Addicts are not outstandingly
> gregarious, and when all the excuses were in only three-a house painter
> named Charlie, a barber named Henry and a waiter we'll call George-were on
> hand for the first meeting. There was uncertainty about where this would
> be; nobody it seemed wanted the addicts around. Besides, missionary, or
> "twelfth step," work of the new group would be hampered by the law. When
> the A.A. member is on an errand of mercy he can, if occasion warrants,
> administer appropriate "medicine" to stave off shakes or delirium long
> enough to talk a little sense into the prospect. If the N.A. member did
> so, he'd risk a long term in jail. Drug peddlers were not enthusiastic
> about the new venture. Rumors were circulating discrediting the group.
>
> Out of the gloom, however, came unexpected rays of friendliness
> and help. The Salvation Army made room for meetings at its 46th Street
> cafeteria. Later the McBurney Y.M.C.A., on 23rd Street, offered a meeting
> room. Two doctors backed their oral support by sending patients to
> meetings. Two other doctors agreed to serve on an advisory board.
>
> There were slips and backslidings. Meetings were sometimes
> marred by obstinacy and temper. But three of the original four remained
> faithful and the group slowly grew. Difficult matters of policy were
> worked out by trial and error. Some members once thought that a
> satisfactory withdrawal could be made at home. Some hard nights were
> endured and it was concluded that the doctors were right-for a proper drug
> withdrawal institutional care is necessary. Addicts are not admitted to
> meetings while using drugs. Newcomers are advised to make their withdrawal
> first, then come to N.A. to learn to live successfully without drugs.
>
> Group statisticians estimate that 5000 inquiries have been
> answered, constituting a heavy drain on the group's treasury. Some 600
> addicts have attended one or more meetings, 90 have attained effective
> living without drugs. One of these is a motion picture celebrity, now
> doing well on his own. One relapse after the first exposure to N.A.
> principles seems to have been about par, though a number have not found
> this necessary. "A key fact of which few addicts are aware," Dan says, "is
> that once he's been addicted, a person can never again take even one dose
> of any habit-forming drug, including alcohol and the barbiturates, without
> running into trouble."
>
> The weekly "open"-to the public-meetings are attended by ten to
> thirty persons-addicts, their friends and families and concerned
> outsiders. The room is small and, on Friday evenings when more than
> twenty-five turn up, crowded.
>
> There is an interval of chitchat and visiting, and then, about
> nine o'clock, the secretary, a Brooklyn housewife, mother and
> department -store cashier, opens the meeting. In this ceremony all repeat
> the well-known prayer: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I
> cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to
> know the difference." The secretary then introduces a leader-a member who
> presents the speakers and renders interlocutor's comments from his own
> experience with a drugless life. The speakers-traditionally two in an
> evening-describe their adventures with drugs and with N.A. In two months
> of meetings I heard a score of these case histories. I also charted the
> progress of a newcomer, the young musician named Tom, whose first N.A.
> meeting coincided with my own first reportorial visit.
>
> Within the undeviating certainties of addiction, individual
> histories reveal a wide assortment of personal variations. Harold, an
> optometrist, is a "medical" addict; he got his habit from the prescription
> pad of a doctor who was treating him for osteomyelitis. An outspoken
> advocate of psychotherapy for all, Harold absorbs a certain amount of
> ribbing as the groups "psychiatric salesman." Florence, the
> housewife-cashier-secretary, recently celebrated her first anniversary of
> freedom from morphine, which she first received twenty-five years ago in a
> prescription for the relief of menstrual cramps. Carl, an electrician,
> became interested in the effects of opium smoke thirty years ago, and
> reached a point where he could not function without his daily pipe. He
> eventually switched to heroin and his troubles multiplied.
>
> Manny, an executive in a high-pressure advertising agency, and
> Marian, a registered nurse with heavy administrative responsibilities
> began using morphine to relieve fatigue. Don, Marian's husband, regards
> alcohol as his main addictive drug, but had a bad brush with
> self-prescribed barbiturates before he came to A.A. and then, with Marian,
> to N.A. Pat, another young advertising man, nearly died of poisoning from
> the barbiturates to which he had become heavily addicted. Harold and Carl
> have now been four years without drugs; Manny, three; Marian, Don and Pat,
> one.
>
> Perhaps a third of the membership are graduates of the teen-age
> heroin fad which swept our larger cities a few years ago, and which still
> enjoys as much of a vogue as dope peddlers can promote among the present
> teen-age population. Rita, an attractive daughter of Spanish-American
> Harlem, was one of the group's first members. Along with a number of her
> classmates, she began by smoking marihuana cigarettes-a typical
> introduction to drugs-then took heroin "for thrills." She used the drug
> four years, became desperately ill, went to Lexington and has now been
> free of the habit four years. Fred, a war hero, became a heroin addict
> because he wanted friends. In the teen-age gang to which he aspired, being
> hooked was a badge of distinction. He sought out the pusher who frequented
> the vicinity of his high school and got hooked. There followed seven
> miserable and dangerous years, two of them in combat and one in a
> veteran's hospital. In December of 1953 he came to N.A. and, he says,
> "really found friends."
>
> Lawrence's story is the happiest of all. He came to N.A. early
> in his first addiction, just out of high school, just married, thoroughly
> alarmed at discovering he was addicted, and desperately seeking a way out.
> N.A. friends recommended that he get "blue-grassed," an arrangement by
> which a patient may commit himself under a local statute to remain at
> Lexington 135 days for what the doctors consider a really adequate
> treatment. He attended meetings in the hospital and more meetings when he
> got home. Now happy and grateful, he thanks N.A. His boss recently
> presented him with a promotion; his wife recently presented him with a
> son.
>
> Besides the Friday open meeting there is a Tuesday closed
> meeting at the Y for addicts only. As a special dispensation I was
> permitted to attend a closed meeting, the purpose of which is to discuss
> the daily application of the twelve steps.
>
> The step under discussion the night I was there was No.4:"Make
> a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." The point was
> raised as to whether this step might degenerate into self-recrimination
> and do more harm than good. Old-timers asserted that this was not the
> proper application. A life of drug addiction, they said, often built up an
> abnormal load of guilt and fear, which could become so oppressive as to
> threaten a relapse unless dealt with. When the addict used step 4 honestly
> to face up to his past, guilt and fear diminished and he could make
> constructive plans for his future.
>
> The Narco meetings at Lexington have borne other fruit. There
> was Charlie, the young GI from Washington, D.C., who once looted first-aid
> kits in the gun tubs of a Navy transport en route to the Philippines and
> took his first morphine out of sheer curiosity. After his Army discharge
> his curiosity led him to heroin and several bad years; then to Lexington,
> where the Narco Group struck a spark. He heard about Dan's work, went to
> New York to see him, and on his return to Washington looked around to see
> what he could do. He discovered that there was a concentration of addicts
> in the Federal penitentiary at Lorton, Virginia. Working with Alcoholics
> Anonymous, which already had meetings in the prison, he obtained
> permission to start a group like the one at Lexington. Now a year old,
> these meetings, called the Notrol Group- Lorton backward-attract the
> regular attendance of about thirty addicts. Washington has no free-world
> group, but Charlie helps a lot of addicts on an individual basis, steering
> them to A.A. meetings for doctrine.
>
> Friendliness of ex-drug addicts with former devotees of alcohol
> sometimes occurs, though Bill, the same who figured so prominently in
> A.A.'s founding, says a fraternal attitude cannot be depended upon. The
> average A.A., he says, would merely look blank if asked about drug
> addiction, and rightly reply that this specialty is outside his
> understanding. There are, however, a few A.A.'s who have been addicted
> both to alcohol and drugs, and these sometimes function as "bridge
> members."
>
> "If the addict substitutes the word 'drugs' whenever he hears
> 'alcohol' in the A.A. program, he'll be helped," Houston says. Many
> ex-addicts, in the larger population centers where meetings run to
> attendances of hundreds, attend A.A. meetings. The H.F.D. (Habit-Forming
> Drug) Group, which is activated by an energetic ex-addict and ex-alcoholic
> of the Los Angeles area named Betty, has dozens of members, but no meeting
> of its own. Individual ex-addicts who are "making it" the A.A. way include
> a minister in a South-eastern state, a politician in the deep South, a
> motion-picture mogul in California and an eminent surgeon of an Eastern
> city. The role call of ex-addict groups is small. There is the parent
> Narco Group, Addicts Anonymous, P.O. Box 2000, Lexington, KY; Narcotics
> Anonymous, P.O. Box 3, Village Station, New York 14, N.Y.; Notrol Group,
> c/o U.S. Penitentiary, Lorton, Va.; H.D.F. Group, c/o Secretary, Bay Area
> Rehabilitation Center, 1458 26th St., Santa Monica, Calif.
>
> A frequent and relevant question asked by the casually
> interested is, "But I thought habit-forming drugs were illegal-where do
> they get the stuff?" The answer involves an interesting bit of history
> explaining how opiates come to be illegal. In the early 1800's doctors
> used them freely to treat the innumerable ills then lumped under the
> heading, "nervousness." Hypodermic injection of morphine was introduced in
> 1856. By 1880, opium and morphine preparations were common drugstore
> items. An 1882 survey estimated that 1 per cent of the population was
> addicted, and the public became alarmed. A wave of legislation swept the
> country, beginning in 1885 with an Ohio statute and culminating in the
> Federal Harrison Narcotic Law of 1914. Immediately after the passage of
> this prohibitory law, prices of opium, morphine and heroin soared. A
> fantastically profitable black market developed. Today, $3000 worth of
> heroin purchased abroad brings $300,000 when finally cut, packaged and
> sold in America.
>
> Among the judges, social workers and doctors with whom I talked
> there is a growing feeling that the Harrison Act needs to be re-examined.
> Dr. Hubert S. Howe, a former Columbia professor of neurology and authority
> on narcotics, says the statute, like the Volstead Act, "removed the
> traffic in narcotic drugs from lawful hands and gave it to criminals." In
> an address before the New York State Medical Society he asserted that the
> financial props could be knocked from the illegal industry by minor
> revisions of present laws and rulings, with no risk of addiction becoming
> more widespread. Doctor Howe proposes a system of regulation similar to
> that of the United Kingdom, which reports only 364 addicts.
>
> Meanwhile the lot of those who become involved with what our
> British cousins rightly call "dangerous drugs" is grim. It is just
> slightly less grim than it might have been five years ago. Since then a
> few addicts have found a way back from the nightmare alleys of addiction
> to a normal life which may seem humdrum enough at times, but which when
> lost, then regained, is found to be a glory.
>
>
>
>
>
> Source: The Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2194. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2005 9:22:00 AM

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Jimmy Kinnon from California started the current version of NA. There are
two great websites for
NA History at http://www.mwbr.net/narchive &
http://www.na-history.org/speaker_audio.html

Just Love,

Barefoot Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: michael oates [mailto:moates57@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:54 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR
HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2195. . . . . . . . . . . . NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS
From: marathonmanric . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2005 12:58:00 PM

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I don't have it in front of me now, but the book which relates this
information is "Slaying the Dragon" by Bill White

Ric from Miami, Area 15, dist 10

Modertor's note: see pgs 239-241 in the cited reference

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++++Message 2196. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s funeral
From: rwj426 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2005 10:47:00 AM

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THE NEW YORK TIMES MONDAY FEBRUARY 15, 1971
500 Meet at St. John's to Mourn Loss of Bill W.
By Paul L. Montgomery

"He was my inspiration, and not mine alone," said Marty M.; one of
the first women members of Alcoholics Anonymous. "He was one of the
most gifted human beings who ever lived on this earth. She spoke at a
memorial service yesterday afternoon at the Cathedral Church of St.
John the Divine for William Griffith Wilson, the co-founder of
Alcoholics Anonymous, who died Jan.24.

In the tradition of the group whose inspiration he was, Mr. Wilson
was known during his life as Bill W. His full name, like that of the
other co-founder, Dr. Robert Holbrook Smith, was disclosed only after
death. Dr. Smith died in 1950.

About 5000 members and others; including Mr. Wilson's wife, Lois,
gathered in the crossing of the cathedral for the service, one of
many held throughout the world yesterday to honor the founder. There
was fond laughter at remembrance of his first direct and sometimes
irascible ways, reverent silence when his virtues were described, and
a few tears.

"When we saw him, we knew we were in the presence of greatness," said
Bob H., general manager of the group's World Service Office. "Bill
really needs no panegyrics from us, no monuments. We just have to
think of the half million recovered alcoholics," Dr. John L. Norris,
chairman of the group's board of trustees, recalled that Mr. Wilson,
after doing much to develop the group therapy methods, decreased his
role in the organization to promote group responsibility.

"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,
what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that
all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group
consciousness." Dr. Norris, a retired physician, was not an
alcoholic, so he acts, as he says "the face man" for the group and
allows his name to be used. "I drink once in a while," the doctor
said in an interview. "It doesn't do much for me though."

The service was conducted by the Rev. Yvelin Gardner of St. George's
Episcopal Church, Hempstead, L.I.; Rabbi David Seligson of the
Central Synagogue, 55th Street and Lexington Avenue, and Father Joe
A., a Catholic priest, read prayers.

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++++Message 2197. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: court slips??? Any Info??
From: Nick Hernandez . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2005 12:13:00 PM

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I've heard that slip signing started in Lincoln Nebraska around 1959
when a lawyer in AA was nominated to the bench and started the
practice. His rational was that some familiarity with AA wouldn't
hurt and might do them some good.

Nick

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "richard johnson"
<hotshots@e...> wrote:
> I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30
days in jail
> or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704
>
>
> >
> >
> > There is 1 message in this issue.
> >
> > Topics in this digest:
> >
> > 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> > From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@h...>
> >
> >
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
> > From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@h...>
> > Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> >
> >
> > The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
> > died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
> > 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the
GRAPEVINE
> > notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
> > born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
> > Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

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++++Message 2198. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Norris'' Comments at Bill
W''s funeral
From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2005 2:05:00 PM

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Thanks for the NY Times obit.

I was amused to read:

"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,
what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that
all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group
consciousness."

In my decades in AA it has always seemed a struggle for people to write
the words "group conscience" as it appears in our Tradition. It is
usually "group conscious" or some variation on that. "Group
consciousness" is a first for me. At least it's a noun and not an
adjective. I wonder if Norris actually said it, or if it was some Times
reporter scribbling as fast as he could :-)

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu

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++++Message 2199. . . . . . . . . . . . Authors of Personal Stories in 4th
Edition Big Book
From: unclebearboy@yahoo.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2005 5:03:00 AM

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I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.
But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I
wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective
local areas?

Do you know who any of them are?

~ bILL

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++++Message 2200. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed
Webster
From: sbanker914@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2005 11:35:00 AM

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In a message dated 2/15/2005 1:29:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
groovycharacterdefects@yahoo.com writes:

I was wondering if the book is valuable or
historically significant?

A Google search reveals that a signed copy is selling for $75.

Susan Banker

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2201. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr Norris'' Comments at Bill
W''s funeral
From: Bob McK . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2005 9:08:00 AM

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Our Regional Historian, Rick S., just sent out Dr. Norris's full talk and
yes he said "group conscience" and not words that sound like it. Don't take
this rendition as gospel! Go back to more original sources since I had to
fix internet-altered punctuation and one typo. But this is the gist of his
talk.

Bob

DR. NORRIS' TALK
MEMORIAL SERVICES for BILL
NEW YORK, N. Y. FEB 14TH, 1971

Our beloved Bill is dead. Evan as I stand before you and say the
words, I cannot really believe that it is true. In my heart I choose to
believe that Bill is here with us at this very moment. And I somehow can
almost hear him saying in that half-amused, half embarrassed way of his, "Oh
come on now Jack, do you really think all this fuss is necessary?"

Two weeks ago, at a meeting of your Board of Trustees, shortly after
Bill's passing, there was a rather lively discussion about a matter
involving the whole fellowship. When it had reached a certain level of
intensity, I found myself waiting to hear Bill speak up, as he so often did
and say those few words that would put everything in perspective. But he
didn't speak. And it was then that I realized way down deep that we would
never hear his voice again...that we could no longer count on the constant
presence of his wisdom and strength. We could never again say as we had said
so many times before, "Bill, what do you think?" And I at least, have not
yet come to accept this completely.

Bill was no saint. He was an alcoholic and a man of stubborn will
and purpose. How else could he have lived through the years of frustration,
failure, and discouragement while the steps, the traditions, and the
conference were being hammered out on the anvil of hard experience with the
first few groups? That he had the self-honesty, the clarity of vision to see
the vital necessity for the Third Step, and turning one's life and will over
to a Higher Power is just one part of our great good fortune that Bill
lived. I have seen Bill's pride and I have seen his humility. And I have
been present when people from far countries have met him for the first time
and started to cry. And all Bill - that shy Vermonter - could do was stand
there and look like he wanted to run from the room. No, Bill was no saint,
although many of us wanted to make him into one. Knowing this, he was
insistent that legends about him be kept to a minimum - that accurate
records be kept so that future generations would know him as a man. He was a
very human person -- to me an exceptionally human person.

Bill's constant concern during almost all of the years that I knew him was
that Alcoholics Anonymous should always be available for the suffering
alcoholic--that the mistakes that led to the fading of previous movements to
help alcoholics should be avoided. To me one measure of his greatness is the
clarity of his vision of the future in his determination to let go of us
long before we were willing to let go of him.

Bill was a good sponsor, - the wise old timer determined to relinquish the
role of founder because he knew that A.A. must, as he would say, come of age
and take complete responsibility for itself. He had an abiding faith that
our Fellowship not only could, but should run without him. Repeatedly,
during the last few years, he has said in General Service Conference
sessions "We have nothing to fear." Bill believed that the wisdom of A.A.
came out of church basements and not from the pulpit; that it was directed
from the groups to the Trustees rather than the other way around. He
sometimes felt, though, when the Conference disagreed with him as it
sometimes did, that its conscience needed to be better informed, but it was
this way that we really shared experience and developed strength and
confidence that the answers would work out.

Bill knew that it was not one voice that should be heard, but many thousands
of voices. And it was his gift that he was able to listen to them all, then,
out of the noise and confusion discern the group conscience. Then he would
put it all together, the tension of argument would fade, and everyone would
realize that his answer was right. What Bill's death means to me now is,
that all of us--all of us: you, the delegates, the Trustees--will have to
listen much more carefully than we once did in order to make out the voice
of the group conscience.

And I know that this is possible. Bill has trained us for it beginning in
St. Louis in 1955. For this was Bill's vision -- to create a channel of
communication within the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous that would make
it possible for everyone to be hear: from the individual through the group,
to the delegates and to the Trustees, so that A.A. will always be here to
extend a hand to the drunk who is at this very moment crying out in the
darkness of his night as he reaches for help.

In closing, I want to say that it has been an honor for me to have had this
opportunity to participate with you in giving thanks to God that Bill lived
and was given the wisdom and strength and courage to make the world a better
place for all of us. There are many more things I could say, but what can
one say finally of a man's goodness and greatness? How many ways can you
take his measure? I cannot do it or say it for any of you -- only for
myself. He was the greatest and wisest man I ever knew. Above everything, he
was a man. And I believe that he left his goodness and greatness and wisdom
with us, for any of us to take in what measure we can. May God grant us the
wisdom and strength to keep Alcoholics Anonymous alive, vital, attractive,
unencumbered by the egocentricities that can so easily spoil it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Arkie Koehl [mailto:arkie@arkoehl.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:05 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Norris' Comments at Bill W's funeral

Thanks for the NY Times obit.

I was amused to read:

"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,
what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that
all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group
consciousness."

In my decades in AA it has always seemed a struggle for people to write
the words "group conscience" as it appears in our Tradition. It is
usually "group conscious" or some variation on that. "Group
consciousness" is a first for me. At least it's a noun and not an
adjective. I wonder if Norris actually said it, or if it was some Times
reporter scribbling as fast as he could :-)

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2202. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Authors of Personal Stories in
4th Edition Big Book
From: Hugh D. Hyatt . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2005 11:22:00 AM

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unclebearboy@yahoo.com is alleged to have written, on or about 02/17/05
05:03:
>
> I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.
> But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I
> wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective
> local areas?
>
> Do you know who any of them are?

One is fairly good friend of mine who I met when I came into the rooms in
1992. She had less than a year's sobriety at the time. Most people do
not know that she's the author of a story in the Big Book. She doesn't
say that she is in her story. She obviously has quite a bit of humility
about it. Those of us who do know are -- as far as I can tell, which may
not be very far -- generally people who knew her before her story was
published and so do not treat her like a celebrity.

I also once met another author of a story from the Big Book at a meeting
in NJ. I didn't know till after we'd left the meeting and never would
have guessed it if I hadn't been told. He certainly didn't act like a
celebrity and no one at the meeting treated him that way. I have no idea
how many people knew that his story had been published.

--
Hugh H.
Bryn Athyn, PA

Liberty has never come from government.
Liberty has always come from the subjects of government.
The history of liberty is the history of resistance.
-- Woodrow T. Wilson

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++++Message 2203. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Editions
From: Kimball Rowe . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2005 4:37:00 PM

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In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a
direct
result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service
Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided
to
leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective
conscience
of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 3rd
Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of which I was
one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th Edition. Was
there
any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was the deciding factor, for
no one person speaks for AA.

A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at
the
General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.

On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the
general
consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It is the
general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group conscience,
which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe in the first
164
pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group conscience, have
it
thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic recovers is his opinion.

Kim
In love and Service

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions

What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2206. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Digest Number 709
From: gentle_bear . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2005 11:05:00 AM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Hi Guys,
I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.
Is this the total global estimate?
Where is this figure from?
Regards
Robin F.
Queensland
Australia.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give
the gift of life to a sick child.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Big Book Editions
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
Subject: Re: Big Book Editions

In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a
direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service
Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided
to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective
conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for
the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of
which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th
Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was
the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.

A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at
the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.

On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the
general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It
is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group
conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe
in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group
conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic
recovers is his opinion.

Kim
In love and Service

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions

What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:15:56 -0800
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book

Clyde; alcoholic,
I can understand peoples curiosity and/or the need to know from anyone
outside of AA to want to know specifically who wrote the BB, as well as whom
and where the stories in the BB came from. However, our tradtions remind us
to frey from making personalities out of AA member's. We are supposed to
keep our anonymity sacred, especially at the level of press, radio, TV and
film; which includes the internet. That we are supposed to always look for
the principal but not towards the personality. Not all whom come to AA whom
are already personalities find it comfortable to be segmented from the
regular membership. An example of that was when I heard Tony H. share. I
believe he said it best in a meeting I was at in LA last year. He said in
part that in AA, he gets to be Tony the drunk. Not the movie star everyone
seems to want to get to know. He doubted if anyone would want to get to
know him or even be attracted to him if he weren't Sir Anthony H. I tend to
agree with him. I suggest we honor the traditions and leave the rest to
wonder about.

Love in fellowship, Clyde G.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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++++Message 2207. . . . . . . . . . . . change ? to BB text
From: J. Carey Thomas . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2005 2:36:00 PM

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Folks,
Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I
would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"
-- or words to that effect?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

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++++Message 2208. . . . . . . . . . . . Special Post - Anonymity
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2005 4:40:00 PM

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To the AA members in the AAHistoryLovers (AAHL) special interest group

AAHL is neither an AA group nor an AA entity. While AAHL is not bound
by AA’s anonymity Traditions, everything possible will be done to
respect them.

Some recent posts have been distributed which inadvertently reveal the
identity of an AA member (the pseudonym used to disguise the member’s
identity is far too easy to figure out).

The message of concern (and others containing embedded copies of it)
cannot be recalled but the archived copies have been deleted.

The error was an honest one and every effort will be made to avoid
repeating it.

Arthur S
Co-Moderator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2209. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Digest Number 707
From: MikeB . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2005 12:13:00 PM

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On Feb 17, 2005, at 10:51 AM, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.
> But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I
> wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective
> local areas?
>
> Do you know who any of them are?

I really had to chuckle at your questions, since I know one of the
authors quite well, and he's certainly not considered a celebrity
although he's a fine member of Alcoholics anonymous.

Mike B.

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++++Message 2210. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Digest Number 709
From: Kimball Rowe . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2005 8:29:00 PM

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The number given is global. From 1951 on, the group/membership figures can
be
found in the final Conference reports. 2003 and 2004 are estimates based on
2002
and trends. A table of these figrues can be found in the document
AA_Timeline_2004-4-01_Public04.pdf on Silkworth.net The table has it broken
out
by US, Canada, Overseas, Hospitals and Prisons.

Kim

----- Original Message -----
From: gentle_bear
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:05 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709

Hi Guys,
I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.
Is this the total global estimate?
Where is this figure from?
Regards
Robin F.
Queensland
Australia.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give
the gift of life to a sick child.
Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
http://us.click.yahoo.com/3iazvD/6WnJAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Big Book Editions
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
Subject: Re: Big Book Editions

In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a
direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service
Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided
to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective
conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for
the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of
which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th
Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was
the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.

A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at
the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.

On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the
general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It
is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group
conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe
in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group
conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic
recovers is his opinion.

Kim
In love and Service

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions

What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:15:56 -0800
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book

Clyde; alcoholic,
I can understand peoples curiosity and/or the need to know from anyone
outside of AA to want to know specifically who wrote the BB, as well as whom
and where the stories in the BB came from. However, our tradtions remind us
to frey from making personalities out of AA member's. We are supposed to
keep our anonymity sacred, especially at the level of press, radio, TV and
film; which includes the internet. That we are supposed to always look for
the principal but not towards the personality. Not all whom come to AA whom
are already personalities find it comfortable to be segmented from the
regular membership. An example of that was when I heard Tony H. share. I
believe he said it best in a meeting I was at in LA last year. He said in
part that in AA, he gets to be Tony the drunk. Not the movie star everyone
seems to want to get to know. He doubted if anyone would want to get to
know him or even be attracted to him if he weren't Sir Anthony H. I tend to
agree with him. I suggest we honor the traditions and leave the rest to
wonder about.

Love in fellowship, Clyde G.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Get unlimited calls to

U.S./Canada

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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

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++++Message 2211. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Digest Number 709
From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2005 9:37:00 AM

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I just looked in my final report and the total number is not 2.6 million.

It is 2,066,851 .... so the number should have been written 2.06 million.
(thats a difference of 600,000 members....or 29% of the actual membership)

These are the actual membership estimates:

United States was 1,187,169
Canada was 96,446
Correctional Facilities was 66,509
Internationalists was 70
Lone members was 204
Total is 1,350,398

Outside US and Canada was 716,453

Grand Total (estimated) is 2,066,851

I find that there is no substitution for the actual source of information,
whenever possible, because folks make mistakes...then others will quote
them....and then the myth becomes "truth" in some minds....thats one reason
a
group like this exists....to seek the actual truth.

Doug B.

[Ref:] 2004 Final Report, Our Singleness of Purpose - The Cornerstone of AA,
from the staff report on page 32

The 54th Annual Meeting of the
General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous

Kimball Rowe wrote:

> The number given is global. From 1951 on, the group/membership figures can
be
found in the final Conference reports. 2003 and 2004 are estimates based on
2002
and trends. A table of these figrues can be found in the document
AA_Timeline_2004-4-01_Public04.pdf on Silkworth.net The table has it broken
out
by US, Canada, Overseas, Hospitals and Prisons.
>
> Kim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gentle_bear
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:05 AM
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709
>
> Hi Guys,
> I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.
> Is this the total global estimate?
> Where is this figure from?
> Regards
> Robin F.
> Queensland
> Australia.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Give
> the gift of life to a sick child.
> Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/3iazvD/6WnJAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
> There are 2 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: Big Book Editions
> From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
> 2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book
> From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700
> From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
> Subject: Re: Big Book Editions
>
> In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a
> direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group
Service
> Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided
> to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective
> conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone
for
> the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of
> which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th
> Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was
> the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.
>
> A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates
at
> the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new
editions.
>
> On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the
> general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It
> is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group
> conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe
> in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our
group
> conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic
> recovers is his opinion.
>
> Kim
> In love and Service
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions
>
> What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
> pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?
>
> Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
> Edition?
>
> Who originally made this decision?
>
> I am looking for documented historical sources.
> Thank you in advance.
>
> Jim
> California
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

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++++Message 2212. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: change ? to BB text
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2005 11:42:00 AM

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Pages 200, "Pass It On" states: (According to an apocryphal story, Bill
was asked in later years whether there was any change he wished he could
have made in the Big Book, and he replied he would change "rarely" to
"never." . Bill himself said he never considered that change.)

And

On page 245 of "Not God," by E. Kurtz, Bill states in a 1961 letter: "I
think the main reason for the use of the word "rarely" was to avoid anything
that would look like a claim of 100% result."

Bob S.

-----Original Message-----
From: J. Carey Thomas [mailto:jct3@juno.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:37 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text

Folks,
Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I
would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"
-- or words to that effect?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2213. . . . . . . . . . . . History
From: DeafAA@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2005 8:29:00 AM

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Hello

I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings during
the
early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob during 1940's
or
1950's???

Jane

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2214. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Digest Number 709
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2005 1:42:00 PM

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An Advisory Action by the 1995 General Service Conference authorized work on
a
Fourth Edition of the Big Book. It repeated previous decisions that the
first
164 pages, the\Prefaces, the Prologues, "The Doctor's Opinion," "Dr. Bob's
Nightmarem" ane the Appendices remain as is.

The area delegates to the General Service Conference are from the United
States
and Canada. Certainly they considered the needs of alcoholics in other
countries
and those who were incarcerated (total estimate of 1,922,269) but they
directly
represented the group conscience of 1,251,192 A.A. members that year.

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++++Message 2215. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2005 5:10:00 PM

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Hi Jane,

I doubt that you will find the exact information you seek (unless
someone else on this listserv knows it) but there is a wealth of general
information at http://www.dhh12s.com/index.htm Not much history, I'm
afraid, but I am often amazed at what I find browsing such pages.

ernie

DeafAA@aol.com wrote:

>
> Hello
>
> I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings
> during the early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob
> during 1940's or 1950's???
>
> Jane
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
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>
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>

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++++Message 2216. . . . . . . . . . . . Response to Inquiry About Big Book
Editions
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2005 7:21:00 PM

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The 1st edition

In November 1937, Bill and Dr Bob met in Akron. Bill had ideas for a
chain of hospitals, paid missionaries and a book of experience to
carry the message to distant places. His ideas passed by 2 votes among
18 members (1 vote actually made the difference).

Up to December 1938, the recovery program was made up of 6 Steps
(passed on to new members by word of mouth). Bill changed this to 12
written Steps to add clarity and close loopholes the alcoholics were
wiggling through. Differing versions of the 6 Steps are listed in “The
Language of the Heart,” “AA Comes of Age,” “Pass It On” and the
Big
Book Pioneer story “He Sold Himself Short."

In March 1939, a heavily edited manuscript was turned over to Tom
Uzzell, an editor at Collier’s and a member of the NYU faculty. The
manuscript was variously estimated as 600 to 800 pages. Uzzell reduced
it to 400 pages. Most cuts came from the stories.

On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the 1st edition of “Alcoholics
Anonymous” were published at $3.50 a copy ($46 a copy today). The
printer was told to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large,
bulky volume became known as the “Big Book” and the name has stuck
ever since. The idea behind the thick and large paper was to convince
the alcoholics they were getting their money’s worth.

Despite many assertions to the contrary, the Big Book does not
"precisely" (in the sense of "exactly") describe the recovery program
used by the first 100 members. The book actually transformed the 6
Step recovery program then used into something quite different. In the
literary sense "precisely" simply means "short and to the point."

The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was from 1 to 179
(not 164). “The Doctor's Opinion” was originally page 1. “Bill's
Story” did not become page 1 until the 2nd edition.

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the 1st edition. The term “spiritual experience” was changed to
“spiritual awakening” and “as the result of these steps” was changed
to “as the result of those steps.” The appendix “Spiritual
Experience”
was added. Many members thought they had to have a sudden, spectacular
spiritual experience like the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The
changes emphasized that most spiritual experiences were of the type
that the psychologist William James called the “educational variety.”

The 2nd edition

In April 1952, based on a 1951 advisory action, the Board formed a
special committee on literature and made a report to the 1952
Conference. The Board recommended literature items that should be
retained and future items that would be needed. Bill W also reported
on the literature projects he was engaged in. One of them included
updating the story section of the Big Book.

The Conference unanimously approved the Board proposals and Bill's
projects. This led to Conference-approval of the 2nd edition and
retroactive approval of the 1st edition and several pamphlets.

In 1955, AA’s 20th anniversary and 2nd International Convention
occurred in St Louis, MO. AA came of age. The General Service
Conference became the Guardian of the Traditions and group conscience
of the entire Fellowship. The 2nd edition Big Book was also published.
30 new personal stories were introduced.

In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again in the 2nd printing of
the 2nd edition. The term “as the result of those steps” was restored
to “as the result of these steps.”

The 3rd edition

The 1976 Conference approved the 3rd edition.

300,000 copies of the 1st edition were distributed from 1939 to 1955.
1,150,000 copies of the 2nd edition were distributed from 1955 to
1976. 19,550,000 copies of the 3rd edition were distributed from 1976
to 2002. Distribution reached the 1 million mark in 1973 and the 22
million mark in 2001.

4th edition

The 2002 Conference approved the 4th edition. More than 3,000,000
copies of it have been distributed so far. Big Book distribution
surpassed 25 million copies in January 2005.

Changes to the basic text

Contrary to popular belief, many wording changes have been made to the
“basic text.” In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term
"ex-alcoholic" was replaced by "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."

Other changes updated numerical values to show growth (e.g. "scores"
changed to "hundreds" changed to "thousands" etc). Also, foot notes
were added. Several web sites have tables detailing all the wording
changes from edition to edition.

The sentiments of the membership

The basic text is "protected" from radical change by the prevailing
sentiment of the entire AA Fellowship. Changes can be made by
Conference advisory action but it’s doubtful they would get very far.

As early as the 2nd edition (1955) Bill W sensed that the Fellowship
was resistant to changing the basic text. The inside flap of the 2nd
edition dust jacket states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1
to page 165 [sic] remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of
most AAs, this should stand as first written."

The foreword to the 3rd edition probably best describes it with the
statement "Because this book has become the basic text for our Society
and has helped such large numbers of alcoholic men and women to
recovery, there exists a sentiment against any radical changes being
made to it. Therefore, the first portion of this volume, describing
the AA recovery program, has been left untouched in the course of
revisions made for both the second and third editions."

Several Conference advisory actions for the 4th edition reaffirmed
that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text,
appendices and “Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to remain "as is."

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2217. . . . . . . . . . . . New articles on AA history
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2005 2:30:00 AM

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Articles and essays from the Hindsfoot Foundation webpage have been
appearing in
the AAHistoryLovers for quite some time. They have been on topics like early
AA
prison groups, early black AA leaders, the role of the Upper Room in helping
shape the spirituality of the Big Book, the authors of Twenty-Four Hours a
Day
and The Little Red Book, and so on.

It has been decided to discontinue doing this, because the way
AAHistoryLovers
messages have to be posted, it is difficult to format many of the articles
so
that they can be read easily, and even more important, it is impossible to
include photos of first editions and people and places.

If however you would like to continue to read them when they come out, could
you
please send us an email at "hfaabooks" hyphen "mail" at "yahoo" dot "com":

hfaabooks-mail@yahoo.com

If this link doesn't work, click on this link instead --
http://hindsfoot.org/hfaabooks.html -- and then click on the email address
given
on that page.

Every month or so, when a new article or essay comes out, an email will be
sent
to your address giving the title of the piece and a link which you can click
on
if you want to read it.

If later on you decide that you don't want these notices coming, just let us
know at the same email address, and we'll remove you from the list
immediately.
(This is just a little private sub-account in the e-mail system we use for
corresponding with authors when we are editing their books. It's handy for
this
purpose because there is a button we can click in that separate address
folder
and send the same email to a number of people simultaneously.)

Or you can just check the Hindsfoot Foundation site itself every once in a
while:

http://hindsfoot.org/

This address takes you to the home page. At the bottom of that page, there
is an
index of all the articles and essays arranged in reverse chronological
order.
The ones at the top of the list are the ones which have appeared most
recently.

Thanks,

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2218. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: change ? to BB text
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2005 9:30:00 PM

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"Rarely - or Never?"

How co-founder Bill Wilson answered a frequently asked question.

The AA Grapevine, December 1978

From time to time over the years, some AA members will question the wording
of the first sentence of Chapter 5 of Alcoholics Anonymous: "Rarely have we
seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Why, the
enthusiastic member asks, doesn't the Big Book say, "Never have we seen a
person fail..."?

This question was answered - several times - by an AA well qualified to
speak on the subject, since he wrote the book, with the assistance of other
early members.

Bill Wilson, AA's co-founder, answered a 1961 letter from Minnesota with
these words (preserved, like those of the following letter, in the archives
at the AA General Service Office): "Concerning your comment about the use of
the word 'rarely" in Chapter 5 of the Big Book: My recollection is that we
did give this considerable thought at the time of writing. I think the main
reason for the use of the word 'rarely' was to avoid anything that would
look like a claim of a 100% result. Assuming, of course, that an alcoholic
is willing enough and sane enough, there can be a perfect score on [a person
of this sort]. But since willingness and sanity are such elusive and
fluctuating values, we simply didn't want to be too positive. The medical
profession could jump right down our throats.

"Then, too, we have seen people who have apparently tried their very best,
and then failed, not because of unwillingness, but perhaps by reason of
physical tension or some undisclosed quirk, not known to them or anyone
else. Neither did we want to over encourage relatives and friends in the
supposition that their dear ones could surely get well in AA if only they
were willing. I think that's why we chose that word. I remember thinking
about it a lot.

"Maybe some of these same reasons would apply to present conditions. Anyhow,
I do know this: The text of the AA book is so frozen in the minds of tens of
thousands of AA’s that even the slightest change creates an uproar."

*************************

In 1967, Bill made the following reply to a Florida member asking the same
question: "Respecting my use of the word 'rarely,' I think it was chosen
because it did not express an absolute state of affairs, such as 'never'
does. Anyhow, we are certainly stuck with the word 'rarely.' My few efforts
to change the wording of the AA book have always come to naught - the
protests are always too many."

*************************

And at the 1970 General Service Conference, this Ask-It-Basket question was
addressed directly to Bill: "If there was any change you would make in the
Big Book, would it be to change the word 'rarely' to 'never' at the start of
Chapter 5.

Bill answered, "No."

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 11:43 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text

Pages 200, "Pass It On" states: (According to an apocryphal story, Bill
was asked in later years whether there was any change he wished he could
have made in the Big Book, and he replied he would change "rarely" to
"never." . Bill himself said he never considered that change.)

And

On page 245 of "Not God," by E. Kurtz, Bill states in a 1961 letter: "I
think the main reason for the use of the word "rarely" was to avoid
anything
that would look like a claim of 100% result."

Bob S.

-----Original Message-----
From: J. Carey Thomas [mailto:jct3@juno.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:37 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text

Folks,
Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I
would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"
-- or words to that effect?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

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++++Message 2219. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st Edition, 7th printing
From: Keith Dunn . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2005 9:23:00 PM

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Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.
The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing
date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000. The eighth printing
shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience suggests there
are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16
printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of
the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of
the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated
demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but
the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The
book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945. But, taking into
account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the fact that
the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th
printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and
the resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more
books (and profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay
within government guidelines. Any suggestions as to where to go for
information, or does anyone have any feedback on this?
Love and Service, Keith D

*****
Art, feel free to respond directly, and forward this to anyone who
can be of help. I didn't know if protocol dictated I send this
straight to the "group", or if I could send it to some archivists
directly. I am aware this is pretty "deep." I've done a lot of
research in the archive arena, and have few resources in Nebraska.
Thanks for your help.

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++++Message 2220. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholics Anonymous and World War
II
From: righteousthug . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2005 5:22:00 PM

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It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
think about it.

Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.

Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
diaspora because of the aviation industry.

I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
(apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.

My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
that WWII had on the spread of AA?

/rt
6/14/88

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++++Message 2221. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Deaf People in AA
From: Audrey Borden . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2005 7:50:00 PM

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Greetings everyone,

Regarding Jane's recent question about deaf AA members, this isn't much but
it might be helpful. The information is from Bob P.'s unpublished material
(from the section on Special Purpose groups in AA):

* The first group of AA for deaf and hearing impaired members was formed
in Los Angeles in 1962.

* In 1985 the AA General Service Office listed over a hundred groups and
contacts for deaf members.

Perhaps the Los Angeles Central Office could put you in touch with someone
who knows more about the history of this first group, or the archivist at
the General Service Office.

Regards, -- Audrey in California

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:29:11 EST
From: DeafAA@aol.com
Subject: History

Hello

I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings during
the early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob during
1940's or 1950's???

Jane

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++++Message 2222. . . . . . . . . . . . McGhee Baxter
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2005 9:21:00 AM

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Hi Friends,

In "On the Tail of a Comet," Garth Lean's splendid biography of Frank
Buchman,
there's a mention on page 140 of McGhee Baxter, who is described as an
alcoholic
whom Buchman had helped. Baxter resumed drinking, however, and was
apparently
quite a problem for the Oxford Group team that went to South Africa in 1929.
He
was reportedly pursuing Eleanor Forde in the hope of marrying her, but she
wisely resisted his charms!

McGhee later was in Richmond, Virginia, and was one of the early AA members
there. In "Pass It On," pp. 170-173, Bill Wilson explains to a Richmond
member
why AA separated from the Oxford Group. Though not mentioned in the book,
the
Richmond member was McGhee Baxter. McGhee also may have lived for a time in
Weaverville, N.C.

Eleanor Forde later married Jim Newton, who was responsible for carrying the
O.G. message to "Bud" Firestone in Akron, thus starting a chain of events
that
resulted in the 1933 Oxford Group rally that brought in several people who
would
help Dr. Bob and the early Akron AA members. Some years ago, I spent a
pleasant
afternoon in Ft. Myers Beach with Jim and Ellie Newton. They remembered
McGhee
fondly and were delighted to hear that he may have found sobriety in AA.

Does anybody have any information about McGhee and how he fared in AA? He
was
obviously a very conscientious and devoted AA member at the time he wrote to
Bill. The Newtons have passed on (Ellie lived to be 103), but it would still
be
interesting to know how things worked out for McGhee.

McGhee also appears to have been an Oxford Group member who made an early
transition into AA. Nell Wing did some research and concluded that quite a
few
O.G. members found their way into AA.
Mel Barger

~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com

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++++Message 2223. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1st Edition, 7th printing
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2005 7:58:00 PM

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Hi Keith

From the information I have (see below). it shows 20,000 copies for
the 8th printing. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this figure and
am uncomfortable with it. Plus the number you cite (5,000 copies)
seems much more consistent with the trend of the war years
mobilization period from 1941 thru 1943.

AA membership exploded after the War. I have a table that contains
figures on the number of Big Books distributed over the years but very
little info on the printings.

Printings of Alcoholics Anonymous First Editions

1st - Apr 1939, 4,730 Printed, Red Binding
2nd - Mar 1941, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
3rd - Jun 1942, 5,000 Printed, Light Blue Binding
4th - Mar 1943, 3,500 Printed, Green Binding
5th - Jan 1944, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
6th - Jun 1944, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
7th - Jan 1945, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
8th - Feb 1945,20,000 Printed, Blue Binding
9th - Jan 1946, 20,000 Printed, Blue Binding
10th - Aug 1946, 25,000 Printed, Blue Binding
11th - Jun 1947, 25,000 Printed, Blue Binding
12th - 25000 Printed, Blue Binding
13th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
14th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
15th, - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
16th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
_____

From: Keith Dunn [mailto:werdunn_99@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:23 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st Edition, 7th printing

Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.
The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing
date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000.

The eighth printing shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience
suggests
there are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16
printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of
the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of
the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated
demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but
the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The
book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945.

But, taking into account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the
fact
that the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th
printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and the
resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more books (and
profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay within government
guidelines.

Any suggestions as to where to go for information, or does anyone have any
feedback on this?

Love and Service, Keith D

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++++Message 2224. . . . . . . . . . . . Singleness of Purpose
From: WCompWdsUnl@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2005 6:40:00 AM

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Could anyone provide me with any related history about how the principle of
Singleness of Purpose was adopted by the early A.A. members. Who? When? Why?
Under what circumstances? Were there any members who disagreed, if so, why?
etc>

Thank you,

Larry W.
(Atlanta, GA)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2225. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and
Emanuel Swedenborg
From: courtautomation . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2005 2:06:00 PM

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Hi Folks!
Thanks for having this fantastic group!

I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA
history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am
generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and
current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.

In "The Soul of Sponsorship" about the friendship of Bill W. and
Father Ed, it mentions that Bill and Lois were married in "Lois's
family's Swedenborgian church," is there any more information about
whether Lois was an active Swedenborgian?

Thanks in advance for the help.

-Craig S.
Alcoholic

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++++Message 2226. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James,
and Emanuel Swedenborg
From: Jeffrey Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2005 12:11:00 AM

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Craig,

Below, please find a compilation of posts to AAhistorylovers from the summer
of
2003 regarding the topic of ‘Swedenborgian roots in AA’. Please be
aware, you
should search the AAhistorylovers archive during that period, as there may
be
additional relevant information in other posts. These particular posts were
of
interest to me, and as a result, they are the only ones I saved.

Regards,
Jeff J

They must be thinking of Lois Wilson as Swedenborgian. Her grandfather,
Nathan
Clark Burnham, was a Swedenborgian minister in Lancaster, PA. We can assume
that some of this influenced Lois. The connection is mentioned on page 2 of
"Lois Remembers," published in 1979 by Alanon.

Mel Barger

Lois Wilson's paternal grandfather, Nathan Clarke Burnham, practiced law,
medicine and was also a minister of the Swedenborgian Church. He wrote a
book
"Discrete Degrees" about the relation Swedenborg had found between the
spiritual
and natural life.

Re the book "Lois Remembers" page 2.

On January 24, 1918 Lois and Bill were married in the Swedeborgian Church in
Brooklyn, NY.

Cheers
Arthur

I wouldn't be surprised if all four of them (Bill W., Lois, Dr. Bob, and
Ann)
had read some Swedenborgian material at some point, because they were all
fascinated with unconventional religious movements, spiritualism, and so on
--
it's a possibility, but I've never run across any specific references.
Perhaps
someone else in the AAHistoryLovers could come up with a specific reference?

But I wonder if your Swedenborgian chaplain got something a little garbled
here,
and left out a step or two in the transmission process. William James,
author
of The Varieties of Religious Experience, had a profound effect on the
founders
of A.A. -- we all know that.

William James' father was a Swedenborgian theologian, and I should imagine
that
a Swedenborgian would notice many things in The Varieties of Religious
Experience (some of the questions asked, and the kind of data that James was
looking at, and some of the interpretations) that were the product of a
Swedenborgian upbringing. And the Swedenborgians may still claim William
James
as "one of their own," which may have been why the chaplain made that
statement.

So it is possible that all that the chaplain was really referring to was the
heavy use which Bill and Bob and Lois and Ann made of The Varieties of
Religious
Experience and the ideas of William James.

On the other hand, there may have been more involved -- which would be very
interesting to know -- so I too would be curious to find out if anyone else
in
the AAHistoryLovers group knows of any specific references to the
Swedenborgians
in the lives (and reading) of Lois or Ann.

Glenn Chesnut, Indiana University (South Bend)

P.S. For those who haven't heard of this group, Emanuel Swedenborg
(1688-1772)
was a Swedish scientist who turned into a mystic and visionary in his later
years (direct contact with the angels, etc.). He insisted that the spiritual
realm was more basic than the material realm, and that the Universe had a
fundamental spiritual structure. It's a pantheistic system: everything is
God,
and God is in everything.

Swedenborgianism was one of the ancestors of New Thought (Emmet Fox et al.)
and
similar movements which came later on. The New Jerusalem Church (the group
which his followers formed) established their first congregation in the
United
States at Baltimore in 1792, and there are still about 40,000 Swedenborgians
worldwide. I've seen their place in Boston.

courtautomation <courtautomation@excite.com> wrote:

Hi Folks!

Thanks for having this fantastic group!

I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA
history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am
generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and
current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.

In "The Soul of Sponsorship" about the friendship of Bill W. and
Father Ed, it mentions that Bill and Lois were married in "Lois's
family's Swedenborgian church," is there any more information about
whether Lois was an active Swedenborgian?

Thanks in advance for the help.

-Craig S.
Alcoholic

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2227. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Singleness of Purpose
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2005 9:19:00 PM

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The Washington Temperance Society

In April 1840, six drinking friends in Baltimore, MD formed the
“Washington Temperance Society” and later became known as the
“Washingtonians.”

They required a pledge of total abstinence and attendance at weekly
meetings where members would relate their stories of drunkenness and
recovery. As a body, they recognized no religion or creed. They were
politically neutral and each member was supposed to help alcoholics
who were still drinking.

Over the following years, Washingtonian membership evolved to consist
primarily of non-alcoholic temperance advocates and a large number of
adolescents who were under age 15.

Their membership reached several hundred thousand but the number of
alcoholics in the mix was likely well under 150,000.

As the membership makeup changed, sentiments shifted away from
reforming (or helping) alcoholics, to pursuing a legal means of
prohibiting alcohol. Washingtonian practices came to be viewed as
outmoded and interest in them faded. There was no sudden or massive
collapse. They simply faded out of existence over time.

Some claim that issues such as Washingtonian involvement in religion,
politics and abolition of slavery led to their downfall. While there
were some incidents of this, there is not much compelling evidence to
support the conclusion that it played any real significant role in the
Washingtonian’s downfall.

The root cause of the Washingtonian’s downfall appears to be their
major departure from their original membership makeup (of all
alcoholics) and their major departure from their original primary
purpose (of one alcoholic trying to help another alcoholic).

It’s a powerful lesson on the importance of AA’s Traditions.

________________________________________
From: WCompWdsUnl@aol.com [mailto:WCompWdsUnl@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:40 AM
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Singleness of Purpose

Could anyone provide me with any related history about how the
principle of
Singleness of Purpose was adopted by the early A.A. members. Who?
When? Why?
Under what circumstances? Were there any members who disagreed, if
so, why?
etc>

Thank you,

Larry W.
(Atlanta, GA)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2228. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing
From: Ken WENTZ . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2005 2:37:00 AM

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Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First edition Big Book would
be
worth today?

My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine condition & may need to
have it appraised. Any help would be appreciated

Ken W.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2229. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World
War II
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2005 10:51:00 AM

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Hi RT,

Not much has been written of the effect of WWII on AA. There is a lot
"between the lines" in *AA comes of Age*. A current scholar, Rich
Dubiel, who is stydying AA styles in Newfoundland, learned that AA got
to that island only after the war.

But what a great topic fow whoever is going to be revising *Not-God*!
And we had better get to that generation fast

ernie

righteousthug wrote:
>
>
> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
> think about it.
>
> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.
>
> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
> diaspora because of the aviation industry.
>
> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.
>
> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
> that WWII had on the spread of AA?
>
> /rt
> 6/14/88
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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++++Message 2230. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James,
and Emanuel Swedenborg
From: Hugh D. Hyatt . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2005 10:18:00 AM

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As a life-long practicing Swedenborgian, this has been a topic of great
interest to me even from the time before I joined A.A. Some of my fellow
alcoholic Swedenborgians see a profound influence of Swedenborgianism on
Bill W. Personally, I do not. To me it seems, at best, to have been a
minor influence and quite likely more indirect, through Jung and James,
rather than through any connection via Lois's family.

My basis for saying this is simply the lack of any clear Swedenborgian
influence in anything I've seen that Bill W. wrote. I am quite familiar
with the church's doctrines and Emanuel Swedenborg's writings. If they
had had a profound impact on Bill, I would expect him to have wrestled
with a different set of issues than he seemed to.

I don't consider myself an expert on the subject of Swedenborgian
influence on Bill. I did forward the original post to a Swedenborgian
minister who I know has an interest in this subject, having corresponded
with him not too long ago about Susan Cheever's biography and her
mentions of Swedenborg. I'm hoping he will respond with something I can
forward to this list.

> P.S. For those who haven't heard of this group, Emanuel Swedenborg
> (1688-1772) was a Swedish scientist who turned into a mystic and
> visionary in his later years (direct contact with the angels,
> etc.). He insisted that the spiritual realm was more basic than
> the material realm, and that the Universe had a fundamental
> spiritual structure. It's a pantheistic system: everything is
> God, and God is in everything.
>
> Swedenborgianism was one of the ancestors of New Thought (Emmet Fox
> et al.) and similar movements which came later on. The New
> Jerusalem Church (the group which his followers formed) established
> their first congregation in the United States at Baltimore in 1792,
> and there are still about 40,000 Swedenborgians worldwide. I've
> seen their place in Boston.

This is a fair summary, except for the allegation that it's a pantheistic
system. While Swedenborg's writings seem to me to recognize an certain
immanence of god (and not every -- maybe even very few -- Swedenborgians
would agree with me on that), the primary doctrine Swedenborg taught was
that Jesus Christ is the one and only god of the universe, spiritual and
natural. He identified Jesus as the incarnation in the natural world of
the Jewish god, Yahweh or Jehovah.

Swedenborg vehemently opposed the division of god into three persons and
the Protestant doctrine of faith alone. "Faith without works is dead" is
a very Swedenborgian thing to say, but Swedenborg himself averred that
the book of James was *not* a part of the Word of God, i.e. not a
divinely inspired book that belonged in the Christian canon. His list
included only five books of the New Testament: the four gospels and
Revelation.
--
Hugh H.
Bryn Athyn, PA

How can you expect to govern a country that
has two hundred and forty-six kinds of cheese?
-- Charles de Gaulle

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++++Message 2231. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World
War II
From: Dolores Rinecker . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2005 3:56:00 PM

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Hi, I am interested in getting more history about the Servicemen who were
stationed in West Germany right after the WWII. I have put some history
together and am interested in getting more. The first meetings were held in
Frankfurt in 1948. All the early groups were Loner groups. Those men were
very influencial in getting english speaking AA going here on the Continent.
I
have put together a short history of the history over here and if you are
interested I can send a copy to you. Bill W. was asked to speak at the
Wiesbaden Round-up in 1962 but "graciosly declined". I am looking for more
history to fill in the empty spaces-years. Hope to hear from you. Yours in
AA Dolores R.

"righteousthug" <righteousthug@dellmail.com> schrieb:
>
>
>
> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
> think about it.
>
> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.
>
> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
> diaspora because of the aviation industry.
>
> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.
>
> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
> that WWII had on the spread of AA?
>
> /rt
> 6/14/88
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2232. . . . . . . . . . . . Information Needed for Big Book
Column Inventory History
From: Tommy . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2005 5:16:00 PM

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Hi everyone,

I am searching for any information on the Creation of the 4th step
inventory used in the Big Book,the column one.I have noticed
liabilities and assest checklist in articles,personal stories in the
Big Book,Grapevine articles,and from speakers themselves.The creation
of the column inventory remains a mystery to me.I would appriciate any
information I could get.Thanks for your help.
Tommy H.
N.Carolina

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++++Message 2233. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing
From: Pete . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2005 9:39:00 PM

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Ken,

Five years ago I was offered a 1st edition 1st printing Big Book signed by
Bill Wilson. Bill wrote a flap message in the book to "My Dear Pete" in
1951. Looks like the Pete he signed the book for was an AA delegate. As my
name is Pete, I got hooked and bought it after some research.

First, I showed the book to a rare book collector who is in the program and
offered to pay him to appraise the book. He did not charge me and said the
book and message looked valid to him and he said it was simply worth what I
was willing to pay. The bottom third of the flap page had been replaced with
a new piece of paper and he said this is common as many times there was an
Al-Anon message there from Lois and that folks removed and saved those
messages for a number of reasons. He said there simply are not enough of the
early books selling to establish a price structure and he could not price
mine.

Then the book seller, Earl H., an excellent AA archivist in Oklahoma found
some personal letters written in 1961 from a Howard B. to a George (both
delegates) mentioning the Pete B. on the flap of my book that gave good
insight into some of the AA issues of the day for the delegates.

Earl also said he had the book pages treated so that they would not crack
and they are soft and flexible today. The binding had also been repaired. So
I felt I knew who the owned the book and who restored it and that Bill had
written in it. And Earl said there were 4,650 books printed in the first
printing.

My web research in 1999 showed that a number of 1st edition books were being
sold abroad and that the prices were increasing dramatically. There was a
value at that time of about $2,500 for a good condition 1st edition 1st
printing book. I had trouble finding more than a few for sale at that time.
The prices looked like they doubled if Bill had signed the book and the
price doubled if it had an original dust cover because most original buyers
ripped off the bright red/yellow jacket and threw it away. There is a laser
copy reproduction of the original dust jacket that is on my book.

Last year I color photo copied the inside message and the Contents and sent
it to the curator at Stepping Stones to see what she thought of the Bill
Wilson signature and the message and the book. The signature actually reads
Bill Wilson. She said she had never seen a Bill Wilson signature on a book
as he always signed them just Bill. She felt (after years of seeing Bill's
writings) the handwriting was Bill's on my book from the "My Dear Pete" to
the "Bill" but that someone else had added Wilson and I believe she is
correct. She also said I have a good book and to enjoy and treasure it. She
knew of no easy way to place a value on the book or any of the early Big
Books.

This book fired my interest in AA history and membership in this group. It
somehow gives me a connection I needed to Bill as I read it and share it
with others. Recently I spent some time at Stepping Stones and read all
available on the last 60 days of Bill's life and got to see his Big Book. He
had penciled in on the stories in the CONTENTS who was in and out of future
printings - I assume based on sobriety.

Not sure why you need it appraised, but enjoy and treasure it and keep on
sharing it with all interested.

Peace,

Pete K.
PS: Below is a current listing from AbeBooks.com

Alcoholics Anonymous
BILL WILSON]

Price: US$ 20000.00 [Convert Currency]
Shipping: [Rates and Speeds]

Book Description: New York: Works Publishing Company, 1939. Half-title
+ TP + v-viii + half-title + 1-400 + 3 blank leaves, large Octavo. First
Edition, First Printing wth the Original Dust Jacket. " A rare book despite
a press run of 4,650 copies. FIRST PRINTING ISSUE POINTS: Jacket spine and
inside front flap do not have a printing number The binding is red - the
only issue in that color There is gilt lettering on the front cover and the
spine The title page states: "How More Than One Hundred Men Have Recovered
From Alcoholism". Page 154, line 29: "abberations" misspelled Page 234, line
27: repeats line 26 Dust jacket is a bit faded on spine and very slightly
worn an torn. There are some old tape discolorations along the front edge of
the dust jacket, the rear edge of the dust jacket and in the lower left
corner of the rear panel. There is an old library label affixed to the lower
portion of the spine with "616.86 / AAt" written on it. Nevertheless, this a
VERY honest dust jacket. The book has been dustjacketed throughout its life
with bright and completely intact gilt lettering on the front cover and the
spine. The book has three names neatly written on the front flyleaf: "Dr. R.
S. Bookhammer" / "Reve. A. F Greene" / "Rodney Elder". Otherwise, a bright,
clean and totally unmarked copy. ADDITIONAL PHOTOS AVAILABLE UPON REQUEST.
Bookseller Inventory #000120

Bookseller: Athena Rare Books ABAA (Fairfield, CT, U.S.A.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken WENTZ" <ayceeman@msn.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st Edition, 7th printing

> Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First edition Big Book would
> be worth today?
>
> My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine condition & may need
> to have it appraised. Any help would be appreciated
>
> Ken W.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2234. . . . . . . . . . . . WWII & AA in Calif
From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2005 2:16:00 AM

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Hello from rainy California

Here in Southern California W.W.II had an indirect effect on the growth of
AA. The first meeting in Southern California was held December 19, 1939 in
Los Angeles. It was started and run by two non-alcoholics. The first real
meeting run by alcoholics took place March 1940 in the Cecil Hotel in
downtown LA. So you might say at that time there were 2 groups and approx.
10 members. Within one year there were 8 groups and approx. 500 members in
the Southern California. By 1945 the AA population grew to 30 groups and
2,000 members. Interviews of early members contribute the growth to three
things: (1) rapid transportation with the scarcity of automobiles owned by
alcoholics still licensed to drive and (2) the rationing of gasoline due to
World War II. (3) 1941 Saturday Evening Post article.

Up until about April 1941, the Friday night meeting was the only meeting
around. Some members would drive 2 hour one way just to attend the meeting
that was held in the Cecil hotel. Keep in mind there were no freeways back
then. Many of these members paid very close attention on how the meeting was
run and after just a few meeting they tried staring meeting in their
hometowns so they would not have to make that drive each week and use up
their rations.

After the Saturday Evening Post article cane out in March 1941, the New York
office forwarded inquires that came in from all over Southern California to
the Cecil Hotel meeting. At the end of the of the meeting each week those
in attendance were ask if any one was from Palm Springs or San Bernardino,
or from this city or that city. If you raised your hand and gave the town
you were from, you were give a stack of letters told to contact these people
from your city and tell them about AA. Almost all held at least one open
meeting in their town to introduce possible alcoholics to AA. As a result
weekly meeting sprang up almost over night.

Hope this helps

Charles from California

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++++Message 2235. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James,
and Emanuel Swedenborg
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2005 8:50:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "courtautomation"
<courtautomation@e...>
wrote:

>
> I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA
> history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am
> generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and
> current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.

With regard to Jung, Swedenborg seems to have increased his respect for
modes of
understanding that operate outside of everyday consciousness. Jung's
thinking
about
"exceptional experiences" derives in part from the theories of Swedenborg.

In Mel B's book on spiritual roots, New Wine, he does not mention Swedenborg
but
he
does write about Jung's theory of synchronicity. I'm not sure if Mel B
thinks
that the theory
itself was influential with early AA's, or if it is simply a better
explanation
than
"coincidence" for some of the occurances in AA's early years.

Synchronicity is a Jungian theory of acausal connection. Here is what Frank
McLynn, a
Jung biographer, says about the concept:

"In its simplest manifestation, synchronicity involved the coincidence of a
psychic state
with a corresponding and more or less simultaneous external event taking
place
outside
the observer's field of perception, at a distance, and only verifiable
afterwards. A famous
example, often cited by Jung, was that of Emanuel Swedenborg. In 1759 he was
staying
with friends in Gothenburg. At 6 PM on a Saturday evening in July he had a
vision of the
great fire that broke out that night in Stockholm. He described the course
of
the fire in
detail to his friends, and when couriers arrived from Stockholm on Monday
and
Tuesday
with the news,his account was confirmed in every detail. When asked how he
had
known,
he replied that the angels had told him."

Immanuel Kant wrote a short book about Swedenborg, Dreams of a
Spirit-Seeker,
which
Jung read during the time (in his early career) when he was most interested
in
psychic
phenomena. That is apparently where he read the accont about the fire, not
through
reading Swedenborg himself. So it appears that Swedenborg was an influence,
although
minor.

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++++Message 2236. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing
From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/25/2005 11:12:00 PM

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Ken,

Probably the most up to date idea of true value would
be in the realm of eBay. They always have a variety of
first editions for sale. Tracking prices over a week
or two would give you a pretty good idea. A true first
first is a pretty significant item. Even more so if it
has the original dust jacket and clutch the pearls
honey if there's a notable signature.

A suggestion would be to put the future of the book to
group conscience with an eye to the traditions and see
what you come up with. Many states have active
archivists who might be able to help.

Early editions of the BB are wonderful things. It's a
tangible link with a past that has given a future to
so many. BUT it IS a THING and a thing of value. Many
big resentments have been spawned over much less.

Good luck!

George

PS-I once got a first fourteenth at a garage sale for
twenty five cents. One of my best scrounging days
ever!

--- Ken WENTZ <ayceeman@msn.com> wrote:

>
> Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First
> edition Big Book would be worth today?
>
> My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine
> condition & may need to have it appraised. Any help
> would be appreciated
>
> Ken W.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/

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++++Message 2237. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: WWII & AA in Calif
From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2005 7:20:00 PM

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Thanks, Charles, for the accurate wording ("The first meeting in
Southern California"). "Pass It On" incorrectly states that LA was the
location of first meeting on the "west coast." On November 21st, 1939,
an AA meeting was held in the Clift Hotel in San Francisco. Ray W., a
New York member, was in SF on a business trip, and had made a contact
with Ted. C., an alcoholic resident at the Duboce Park boarding house
of Zilpa Oram. Ms. Oram had heard about AA on the radio (the Heatter
broadcast?) and had written to the NY office in an effort to get some
help for her tenant.

Arkie
Honolulu

On Feb 24, 2005, at 21:16, Charles Knapp wrote:
>
> Hello from rainy California
>
> Here in Southern California W.W.II had an indirect effect on the
> growth of
> AA. The first meeting in Southern California was held December 19,
> 1939 in
> Los Angeles. It was started and run by two non-alcoholics. The first
> real
> meeting run by alcoholics took place March 1940 in the Cecil Hotel in
> downtown LA. So you might say at that time there were 2 groups and
> approx.
> 10 members. Within one year there were 8 groups and approx. 500
> members in
> the Southern California.

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++++Message 2238. . . . . . . . . . . . Gnostic AA...?
From: John G . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/27/2005 10:58:00 PM

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I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some commentaries on
them.

I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual practices, and
the practices of AA.

Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?

Thanks....

John G.

FYI, here are a few gnostic links:

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1109476701/sr=8
-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109476701/sr=8
-2/ref=pd_csp_2/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2239. . . . . . . . . . . . As Bill Sees It/3rd Step Prayer
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/27/2005 11:43:00 AM

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A lingering mystery for me has been why the editors of As Bill Sees It
changed the word "victory" to "transcendence" on p. 210, which has the
paragraph containing the Third Step Prayer and an edited version of the
following sentence.

Bill warns us in the Foreword, "Because the quotations used were lifted out
of their original context, it has been necessary in the interest of clarity
to edit, and sometimes to rewrite, a number of them," but I do not see a
need for this change of words.

What was the justification for it?

Tommy in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 2240. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gnostic AA...?
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2005 11:09:00 AM

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Hi John,

No, I do not know of any AA connections with gnosticism, but AA lore and
some of Bill W's comments in the early 1960s suggest that whenever AA
got into a new area, especially in Asia, and some member explained the
12 Steps, the religious leaders of the region would say, "Yes, that is
what we have always believed and thought." Since many gnostic teachings
were close to early Christian beliefs, what you say is not surprising.

Just now I am trying to investigate why the Millati Islami (Google it in
"") have left "and to another human being" out of their Fifth Step.
There are other small changes, but that one confuses me, because it
seems to me that one big way of growing in the program is by way of
identification. Anyone out there who might put me in email contact with
an Islamic AA member -- or with a book/article that contains the stories
of Islamic AAs?

One individual I contacted on the web told me the 12 Steps were "adapted
to Muslim sensibilities," but I'm afraid I am too ignorant of that faith
to have been able to understand his follow-up.

ernie kurtz

John G wrote:

>
> I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some commentaries on
> them.
>
> I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual practices, and
> the practices of AA.
>
> Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?
>
> Thanks....
>
> John G.
>
>
>
> FYI, here are a few gnostic links:
>
> http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
>
> http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html
>
> http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> -1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> -2/ref=pd_csp_2/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> click here
>
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++++Message 2241. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gnostic AA...?
From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2005 3:22:00 PM

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On Feb 28, 2005, at 6:09, Ernest Kurtz wrote:

> Just now I am trying to investigate why the Millati Islami (Google it
> in "") have left "and to another human being" out of their Fifth Step.

> There are other small changes, but that one confuses me, because it
> seems to me that one big way of growing in the program is by way of
> identification. Anyone out there who might put me in email contact
> with an Islamic AA member -- or with a book/article that contains the
> stories of Islamic AAs?
>
> One individual I contacted on the web told me the 12 Steps were
> "adapted to Muslim sensibilities," but I'm afraid I am too ignorant of
that
> faith to have been able to understand his follow-up.

I duly Googled the site and found this rather detailed rationale for
the deletion of the phrase:

------------------

"Millati Islami Step Five
5. We admitted to Allah and to ourselves the exact nature of our
wrongs.

Having had the experience of thoroughly working through the 12 steps
of Alcoholics Anonymous several times, we can say from our own
experience, that we, in Millati Islami, do understand why in Islam,
Muslims are not to go about advertising their faults to other people.

We have had personal experience and have heard of others who have
shared their personal stories with, what was believed to be a trusted
person, only to later hear some of the most private details of their
life being discussed publicly. And we are well aware of the AA saying
that says we are as sick as our secrets, and this is not without some
validity.

In Islam, there is no equivalent to the confessional of other faiths.
Or rather, it should be said that we confess our wrongs to and beg for
forgiveness from Allah alone, Who already knows our defects. We also
are required to mend our ways, to repent, and to do good deeds. Our
belief as taught by Rasulillah (the Messenger of God)(pbuh) is that one
sin equals one sin, and we are rewarded several times over for the one
good deed that we do. This is indeed mercy from the only One that can
dispense mercy, Ar-Rahman (Most Merciful), Allah.

It is also viewed as a good deed for one brother to cover another
brother’s (or sister’s) faults. This does not mean to not share a
guiding word with any of our straying friends. It simply means that we
do not broadcast theirs or our wrongs to anyone. The reason for this is
to not allow justification for doing wrong to grow from having heard of
so and so doing wrong. And then saying “well so and so has not been
struck down dead from his wrong. If he was forgiven, then I will be
forgiven also”

Of course there is a difficulty with this step, because the Big Book
of Alcoholics Anonymous says on page 72-73 that we must tell someone
our entire life story if we are to stay sober. How can these two
contrary views be reconciled is the question? I would say with common
sense we have our answer. In our faith of Islam we have brothers and
sisters that we are close to. Or I should say we should make it our
business to get close to the Ummah (community of believers). It is a
command of Allah that we stand together as one unit. There is not much
witnessed of great harmony among the Ummah today because of outside
influences and of varying schools of thought, but as recovering
Muslims, we have no choice but to tighten our ranks. We NEED each
other. We NEED to share our experience and hope with each other. We
NEED to strengthen and understand each other. It is in this way that we
relieve and assist each other, where Allah allows us, in staying clean
and sober. We then fulfill part of our Islamic responsibility and the
command of Allah to stay unified and not allow division to appear in
our ranks.

Under these life and death circumstances of active drug addiction and
the very real need to stay drug-free, there is no one that we should be
closer to, besides Allah and His Messenger (pbuh), than to each
recovering/repentant Millati Islami brother or sister. To share our
experience strength and hope with each other, in Millati Islami, is our
Step Five.

--------

Arkie
Honolulu

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++++Message 2242. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gnostic AA...?
From: Alex H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2005 7:10:00 PM

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> I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some
> commentaries on them.
>
> I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual
> practices, and the practices of AA.
>
> Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?

No. But I've noticed the same thing.

Another mystical movement that formed around the same time is
called Kabbalah. It is Jewish mysticism. If you follow it you
will soon find that it sounds a lot like AA spiritual
principles. It is also a lot different in a number of ways just
as Gnosticism is different from AA spiritual principles in a
number of critical ways. The reason is that AA spiritual
principles are not a complete spiritual system. They are general
spiritual principles that can be found in any number of
religious disciplines. For instance... try reading the book "9
1/2 Mystics". It is a sort of biography of several contemporary
Jewish mystics who approach mysticism from slightly different
ways but have a common thread.

One of my Jewish buddies got sober outside of AA by going to a
group called Chabad. (They are a Jewish outreach sub-group of
Lubuvitch Chasidim. They are mystics.). Chabad runs a program
for getting off of drugs and alcohol. Not incidentally, Chabad
uses the spiritual principles outlined in Kabbalah (Jewish
mysticism). Brittany Spears and Madonna have been exploring
Kabbalah. [My own view on their spiritual journey deleted].

One should use caution when following mysticism and especially
Kabbalah. As it says in the Big Book, as one follows this
spiritual program one will begin to depend on intuition, but one
should use caution or one can be misled into all sort of absurd
action.

That is truth.

Kabbalah is quite similar is Islamic mysticism I am told.

Regarding the question of why an Islamic 12 step group would
leave out the part in Step 5 about sharing one's character
defects with one other person, I have a pretty good guess. In
Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt
after a month of reflection as to our character defects much
like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes
place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person
is required.

So... it is not the rabbi's business whether you have actually
made the amends or not. It is presumed that G-d knows your heart
and that you are not a liar. Thus, to present yourself as if you
have made amends, presumes that you have reflected properly upon
your character defects and not lied about making amends. To say
that another human being (unconnected to the amends) is required
to attain either reflection or amends, will be viewed as
suspect. After all... isn't G-d powerful enough? Since He *is*
powerful enough, then why is another person (other than the
parties directly involved) required? Well... He is powerful
enough, but at that point (of step 5) we have not yet
established a reliable connection with G-d. (my opinion). We
need someone else as a checkpoint. While I think I am correct in
my opinion, I recognize that other religious people might
disagree and see the requirement of another person in the
process as suggesting that G-d is not all powerful and thus be
tempted to remove that requirement.

Alex H.

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++++Message 2243. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gnostic AA...?
From: Barry Murtaugh . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2005 4:46:00 PM

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John and Ernie,

Contact Bart Ehrmann at UNC or Elaine Pagels at Princeton.

They may very well have some sources or guides to the downdrift of
gnostic spirituality into modern times.

Certainly Karen Anderson in several of her works shows how it reveals
itself in strains of sufism and mystic judaism not to mention non
canonical early christian writings.

Barry Murtaugh
Barrington

>
> Hi John,
>
> No, I do not know of any AA connections with gnosticism, but AA lore and
> some of Bill W's comments in the early 1960s suggest that whenever AA
> got into a new area, especially in Asia, and some member explained the
> 12 Steps, the religious leaders of the region would say, "Yes, that is
> what we have always believed and thought." Since many gnostic teachings
> were close to early Christian beliefs, what you say is not surprising.
>
> Just now I am trying to investigate why the Millati Islami (Google it in
> "") have left "and to another human being" out of their Fifth Step.
> There are other small changes, but that one confuses me, because it
> seems to me that one big way of growing in the program is by way of
> identification. Anyone out there who might put me in email contact with
> an Islamic AA member -- or with a book/article that contains the stories
> of Islamic AAs?
>
> One individual I contacted on the web told me the 12 Steps were "adapted
> to Muslim sensibilities," but I'm afraid I am too ignorant of that faith
> to have been able to understand his follow-up.
>
> ernie kurtz
>
>
> John G wrote:
>
> >
> > I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some
commentaries on
> > them.
> >
> > I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual
practices, and
> > the practices of AA.
> >
> > Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?
> >
> > Thanks....
> >
> > John G.
> >
> >
> >
> > FYI, here are a few gnostic links:
> >
> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
> >
> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html
> >
> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm
> >
> >
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> > -1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
> >
> >
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> > -2/ref=pd_csp_2/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > click here
> >
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cs2c8qa/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=gr
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lth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109672995/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.n
etfl\

ix.com/Default?mqso=60190075 [6]>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Barry Murtaugh
jbmcmc@voyager.net

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++++Message 2244. . . . . . . . . . . . Chip Club
From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2005 11:06:00 AM

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Where and when did the "Chip Club" start?

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++++Message 2245. . . . . . . . . . . . The Lord''s Prayer
From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2005 11:07:00 AM

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When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?

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++++Message 2246. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chip Club
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2005 2:59:00 AM

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Lee asked
Where and when did the "Chip Club" start?

Chips, Medallions and Birthdays

The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of
the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the
history on them.

Sister lgnatia, the nun who helped Dr. Bob get the hospitalization program
started at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron was the first person to use
medallions in Alcoholics Anonymous. She gave the drunks who were leaving St.
Thomas after a five day dry out a Sacred Heart Medallion and instructed them
that the acceptance of the medallion signified a commitment to God, to A.A.
and to recovery and that if they were going to drink, they had a
responsibility to return the medallion to her before drinking.

The sacred heart badges had been used prior to A.A. by the Father Matthew
Temperance Movement of the 1840s and the Pioneers an Irish Temperance
Movement of the 1890s.

The practice of sobriety chips in A.A. started with a Group in Elmira, N.Y.
in 1947 and has grown from there.

The celebration of birthdays came from the Oxford Group where they
celebrated the anniversary of their spiritual rebirth. As we have a problem
with honesty, A.A. chose the anniversary of the date of our last drink.

Early celebrations of birthdays resulted in people getting drunk and Dr.
Harry Tiebout was asked to look at the problem and he commented on this
phenomenon in an articled titled "When the Big "I" Becomes Nobody", (AAGV,
Sept. 65)

"Early on in A.A., I was consulted about a serious problem plaguing the
local group. The practice of celebrating a year's sobriety with a birthday
cake had resulted in a certain number of the members getting drunk within a
short period after the celebration. It seemed apparent that some could not
stand prosperity. I was asked to settle between birthday cakes or no
birthday cakes. Characteristically, I begged off, not from shyness but from
ignorance. Some three or four years later, A.A. furnished me the answer. The
group no longer had such a problem because, as one member said, "We
celebrate still, but a year's sobriety is now a dime a dozen. No one gets
much of a kick out of that anymore."

The AAGV carried many articles on chips and cakes and the following is a
brief summary of some.

Feb. 1948, Why All the Congratulations? "When we start taking bows (even on
anniversaries) we bow ourselves right into the cuspidor."

July, 1948. Group To Give Oscar for Anniversaries.
The Larchmont Group of Larchmont, N.Y. gives a cast bronze camel mounted on
a mahogany base to celebrate 1st., 5th and 10th anniversaries.
"The camel is wholly emblematic of the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e.,
to live for 24 hours without a drink."

August 1948. The Artesta, N.Mex. Group awards marbles to all members. If you
are caught without your marbles, you are fined 25 cents. This money goes
into the Foundation Fund.

June 1953, We operate a poker chip club in the Portland Group (Maine). We
have poker chips of nine colors of which the white represents the probation
period of one month. If he keeps his white chip for one month he is
presented with a red chip for one month's sobriety.
The chips continue with blue for two months, black for three, green for
four, transparent blue for five, amber for six, transparent purple for nine
months and a transparent clear chip for one year. We have our chips stamped
with gold A.A. letters.
Also at the end of the year and each year thereafter, we present them with a
group birthday card signed by all members present at the meeting.

January 1955, Charlotte, N.C. "When a man takes "The Long Walk" at the end
of a meeting, to pick up a white chip, he is admitting to his fellow men
that he has finally accepted the precepts of A.A. and is beginning his
sobriety. At the end of three months he exchanges his white chip for a red
one. Later, a handsome, translucent chip of amber indicates that this new
member has enjoyed six months of a new way of life. The nine month chip is a
clear seagreen and a blue chip is given for the first year of sobriety. In
some groups a sponsor will present his friend with an engraved silver chip,
at the end of five years clear thinking and clean living.

March 1956, The One Ton Poker Chip. Alton, Illinois. Author gave friend a
chip on his first day eight years ago (1948) and told him to accept it in
the spirit of group membership and that if he wanted to drink to throw the
chip away before starting drinking.

October 1956, Bangor Washington. Article about a woman who sits in a bar to
drink the bartender sees her white chips and asks what it is. She tells him.
He throws her out as he does not want an alcoholic in his bar. She calls
friend.

April 1957, Cape Cod, Mass. Group recognizes 1st, 5th and 15th
anniversaries. Person celebrating leads meeting. Person is presented with a
set of wooden carved plaques with the slogans.

July 1957, New Brunswick, Canada. Birthday Board. Member contributes one
dollar for each year of sobriety.

July 1957, Oregon. Person is asked to speak and is introduced by his or her
sponsor. The wife, mother, sister or other relative brings up a cake. The
Group sings Happy Birthday. The wife gives a two or thee minute talk.

April 1959, Patterson, N.J. People are asked to give "three month pin
talks."

And that's a little bit of info on chips, cakes and medallions.

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++++Message 2247. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Lord''s Prayer
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2005 3:11:00 AM

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Lee asked

When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What about
the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?

The following is a letter by Bill W. on the use of the Lord's Prayer in AA.

The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the
International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and
join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first
time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the
Toronto experience.
---------------------------------------------------------

A Letter From Bill Wilson About The Use Of The Lord's Prayer At A.A.
Meetings

April 14, 1959
Dear Russ,
Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time out of
the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon type of flu
that has been around here in New York. We are okay now, however, but I did
want to explain my delay.
Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A. meeting.
This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were influential in
the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in AA. Comes of Age what the
connection of these people in A.A. really was. I think saying the Lord's
Prayer was a custom of theirs following the close of each meeting. Therefore
it quite easily got shifted into a general custom among us.
Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the
introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering. Also,
it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document.
Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the
arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched. It is
also true that most A.A.s believe in some kind of God and that communication
and strength is obtainable through His grace. Since this is the general
consensus it seems only right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the
Lord's Prayer be used in connection with our meetings. It does not seem
necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to
the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel.
However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to join
him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so. The worst
that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to it. This is
doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage of progress.
So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your letter
made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.
Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the friendship of
you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross one of these days.
Devotedly yours,
Bill Wilson

WGW/ni Mr. Russ
From the A.A. Archives in New York

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++++Message 2248. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Lord''s Prayer
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2005 11:02:00 PM

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Dear Lee and Group,
The "Lord's Prayer" carried over from the Oxford Group and was used at the
first AA meeting that Clarence Snyder started at Abby Golrick's home; 2345
Stillman Rd, Cleveland Hts., OH, on May 11th, 1939. For verification
please read page 261 of "Dr. Bob And The Good old Timers."

Bob S.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Nickerson [mailto:snowlily@gwi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:08 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer

When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2249. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Lord''s Prayer
From: righteousthug . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2005 12:23:00 AM

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From - http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabwlordprayer.html

A Letter From Bill W. Regarding The Lord's Prayer In A.A.
From the A.A. Archives in New York

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

April 14, 1959
Dear Russ,

Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time
out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon
type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now,
however, but I did want to explain my delay.

Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A.
meeting.

This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were
influential in the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in AA.
Comes of Age what the connection of these people in A.A. really was.
I think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the
close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a
general custom among us.

Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the
introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering.
Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a
Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread
use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems
to be a little farfetched. It is also true that most A.A.s believe in
some kind of God and that communication and strength is obtainable
through His grace. Since this is the general consensus it seems only
right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used
in connection with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer
to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent
of completely hiding our light under a bushel.

However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to
join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so.
The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen
to it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their
stage of progress.

So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your
letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.

Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the
friendship of you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross
one of these days.

Devotedly yours,
Bill Wilson

WGW/ni
Mr. Russ

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Nickerson"
<snowlily@g...> wrote:
>
>
> When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
> about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?

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++++Message 2250. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Lord''s Prayer
From: Bruce Lallier . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2005 7:34:00 AM

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I first remember the holding of hands from the early to mid 70's in Ct.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@gwi.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:07 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer

>
>
>
> When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
> about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2251. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Lord''s Prayer
From: Ken WENTZ . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2005 7:47:00 AM

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The practice of saying the " LORDS PRAYER " at the end of the meetings &
holding
hands came from the meetings that were held first, at the home of T. Henry &
Clarace Williams in Akron, and at Dr. Bob's house. They would read from the
bible then ( there was no " Big Book " ) and conclude with a prayer they
were
all familiar with. From Dr. Bob & the good old -timers & Pass it
on...........................Ken W

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2252. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Lord''s Prayer
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2005 12:03:00 PM

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Hi Lee

I found the information below on the Lord’s Prayer and its place in
AA.

Cheers

Arthur

A Letter From Bill Wilson About The Use Of The Lord’s Prayer At A.A.
Meetings

April 14, 1959

Dear Russ,

Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time
out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon
type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now,
however, but I did want to explain my delay.

Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A.
meeting.

This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were
influential in the early days of AA. You have probably noted in AA.
Comes of Age what the connection of these people in AA really was. I
think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the
close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a
general custom among us.

Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the
introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary AA gathering.
Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian
document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and
recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a
little farfetched. It is also true that most AAs believe in some kind
of God and that communication and strength is obtainable through His
grace. Since this is the general consensus it seems only right that at
least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used in connection
with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings
of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent of completely
hiding our light under a bushel.

However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to
join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so.
The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to
it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage
of progress.

So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your
letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.

Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the
friendship of you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross
one of these days.

Devotedly yours,

Bill Wilson

On page 293 of “As Bill Sees it.” It states:

“He can do this because he now accepts a God who is All - and who
loves all. When he says, ‘Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be
Thy name,’ he deeply and humbly means it …”

General Service Conference Advisory Actions:

1952: all Conference sessions are to open with the Serenity Prayer and
close with the Lord’s Prayer.

1954: the General Service Conference will end with the recitation of
the Lord’s Prayer.

1975: convention meetings will open with the Serenity Prayer and close
with the Lord’s Prayer.

On page 16 of “The AA Group Pamphlet” it states:

Whether open or closed, AA group meetings are conducted by AA members,
who determine the format of their meetings. [Page 19] many meetings
close with members reciting the Lord’s Prayer or the Serenity Prayer.

_____

From: Lee Nickerson [mailto:snowlily@gwi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 10:08 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer

When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2253. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st ed, 1st printing errors
From: lester112985 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2005 12:56:00 PM

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Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st
printing Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
Thanks
Lester

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++++Message 2254. . . . . . . . . . . . AA geographical membership rates
From: gentle_bear . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2005 5:13:00 PM

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Hi Folks,

My recent question re AA membership prompted me to wonder what the rates of
AA membership was in various countries around the world.

I was able to calculate the following.

These ratios are expressed as a percentage of the total population of a
country.

Australia - 0.150%
USA - 0.402%
Canada - 0.297%
New Zealand - 0.095%

Naturally the USA and Canada have high rates as AA started in North America.

The New Zealand membership census is on their website.

The Australian membership is an estimate - 30,000. Don't quote me - its
based on growth from a statistic about 10 years old.

Can anyone add to these figures?

The next question is - How can we explain these differences, if at all?

In Fellowship

Robin F.

Brisbane

Australia.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2255. . . . . . . . . . . . Now about sex
From: George Cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2005 10:56:00 PM

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Hopefully that message header won't get this thrown into the spam
file.

The third part of the 4th Step Inventory is about our sex conduct. It
is about our CONDUCT, not the number of notches on the bedpost. In the
instructions for the Resentment portion, the alcoholic is asked to
look at their part in the resentment and answer where they were
selfish, dishonest, self seeking and afraid. In the sex inventory, we
are given a huge magnifying glass and asked to answer 9 questions
instead of four.

Anyone who has done this knows what a transforming process it is and
that it is the jumping off place for the start of the spiritual
awakening that the Big Book says is the whole point of the book.

The reading on sex that begins at the bottom of Page 68 appears to be
a practically perfect manifesto of fairness, directness and, to use
the overused, inclusive.

I have searched the archives here and can't find a reference to the
genesis of this piece and what kind of fallout it may have created. I
am sure that nearly 70 years later, the sex reading raises many
hackles.

I greatly appreciate the thoughtful and sometimes intense research and
scholarship that is evident in this group.

Now....about sex?

George Cleveland

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++++Message 2256. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1st ed, 1st printing errors
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2005 7:35:00 PM

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Dear Lester and Group,

One misprint can be found on page 234 where the second and third lines from
the bottom are repeated, e.g.:

". . . . last evening after I left the car and wondered off into . . . "

". . . . last evening after I left the car and wondered off into . . . "
However, I am not sure whether or not the same misprint occurs in later
printings.

Bob S. from Indiana

1

-----Original Message-----
From: lester112985 [mailto:lgother@optonline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 12:56 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors

Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st
printing Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
Thanks
Lester

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2257. . . . . . . . . . . . Holding hands
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2005 8:21:00 PM

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Thanks Jim,

Ten years later I was living in Southern California (1975) and the custom of
holding hands was then prevalent at most groups. However, in 1978, I moved
to a mid-sized town, Richmond, Indiana and the practice was not yet in
vogue. But by the early 1980s most of the groups had begun holding hands.
Of course, here I am not talking about the Responsibility Declaration, but
the Lord’s Prayer.

Bob S.

The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the
International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and
join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first
time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the
Toronto experience.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2258. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1st ed, 1st printing errors
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/3/2005 8:21:00 PM

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Lester wrote

Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing
Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.

Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.

The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition

1st Edition - 1st Printing
- Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."
- 29 personal stories.
- Price 3.50$.
- Cover is red, only printing in red.
- Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.
- Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.
- Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.
- 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).
- Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.
- P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.
- Published by Works Publishing Company.

1st Edition - 2nd Printing
- Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- 28 personal stories
- Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.
- Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.
- Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.
- Jacket spine and front flap has print number.
- Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)
- Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
- P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.
- P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.
- P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People
- P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
- P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.
- P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.
- P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.
- P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."
- P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.

1st Edition - 3rd Printing
- Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.
- Cover changed to light blue.
- Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.
- P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.
- P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.
- P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.
- P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.
- P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.
- P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.
- P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.
- P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.
- P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.
- P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.
- P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.
- P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.
- P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.

1st Edition - 4th Printing
- Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
- Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
- P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
- P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
- P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
- P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
- P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
- P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
- P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
- P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
- P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
- P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
- P398-L10, members to older members
- P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
- P398-L16, this book, to this book.
- P398-L16, send money to please send money.

1st Edition - 5th Printing
- Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."
- Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.
- Last Big Book in size.
- Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).
- P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."
- P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.
- P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.
- P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.

1st Edition - 6th Printing
- Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).
- Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.
- Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).
- P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
- P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
- P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).

1st Edition - 7th Printing
- Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.
- Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
- Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
- P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.
- P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.
- P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.
- P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."
- P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.
- P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937
- P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.
- P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.
- P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.
- P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.
- P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.
- P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.

1st Edition - 8th Printing
- Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.
- P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.

1st Edition - 9th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.
- P323-L20, Two years to several years.

1st Edition - 10th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.

1st Edition - 11th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
- P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P178-L20, Him to HIM.
- P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
- P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.

1st Edition - 12th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Decreased height by 1/16.

1st Edition - 13th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .

1st Edition - 14th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced in thickness 1/16.

1st Edition - 15th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased in height by 1/16.
- Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.

1st Edition - 16th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.

Last printing of the First Edition.

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++++Message 2259. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1st ed, 1st printing errors
From: snowlily . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2005 10:20:00 AM

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Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors

>
>
> Lester wrote
>
> Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing
> Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
>
> Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.
>
> The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition
>
> 1st Edition - 1st Printing
> - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."
> - 29 personal stories.
> - Price 3.50$.
> - Cover is red, only printing in red.
> - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.
> - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.
> - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.
> - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).
> - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.
> - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.
> - Published by Works Publishing Company.
>
> 1st Edition - 2nd Printing
> - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - 28 personal stories
> - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.
> - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.
> - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.
> - Jacket spine and front flap has print number.
> - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)
> - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
> - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.
> - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.
> - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People
> - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
> - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.
> - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.
> - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.
> - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."
> - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.
>
> 1st Edition - 3rd Printing
> - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.
> - Cover changed to light blue.
> - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.
> - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.
> - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.
> - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.
> - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.
> - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.
> - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.
> - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.
> - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.
> - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.
> - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.
> - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.
> - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.
> - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.
>
> 1st Edition - 4th Printing
> - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
> - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
> - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
> - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
> - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
> - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
> - P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
> - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
> - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
> - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
> - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
> - P398-L10, members to older members
> - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
> - P398-L16, this book, to this book.
> - P398-L16, send money to please send money.
>
> 1st Edition - 5th Printing
> - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."
> - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.
> - Last Big Book in size.
> - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."
> - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.
> - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.
> - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.
>
> 1st Edition - 6th Printing
> - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).
> - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.
> - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).
> - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).
>
> 1st Edition - 7th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.
> - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
> - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.
> - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.
> - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."
> - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.
> - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937
> - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.
> - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.
> - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.
> - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.
> - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.
> - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.
>
> 1st Edition - 8th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.
> - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
>
> 1st Edition - 9th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.
> - P323-L20, Two years to several years.
>
> 1st Edition - 10th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.
>
> 1st Edition - 11th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
> - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P178-L20, Him to HIM.
> - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
> - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.
>
> 1st Edition - 12th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Decreased height by 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 13th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .
>
> 1st Edition - 14th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 15th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased in height by 1/16.
> - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.
>
> 1st Edition - 16th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.
>
> Last printing of the First Edition.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2260. . . . . . . . . . . . Aldous Huxley
From: eze_kiel03 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2005 12:22:00 PM

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I can find many references to Aldous Huxley's claim that AA was the
greatest social movement of the 20th century, but not the original
source. Where and when did he say or write it?

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++++Message 2261. . . . . . . . . . . . Fwd: Lords Prayer
From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2005 5:35:00 PM

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It must have been either late 1972 or in the beginning of 1973 when someone
first reached out in an attempt to hold my hand at the end of the the A.A.
meeting in Philadelphia PA.

Strange enough, this was the same meeting that I had been going to at
least three years and I still don't remember any discussion on the change in
policy. Prior to that night we had always folded our hands in front of us
during
the prayer.

Kilroy W.
4021 Club
Philadelphia PA

_____________________________________________________________
A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com

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++++Message 2262. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lone Endeavor Story
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2005 9:04:00 PM

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Lester wrote

Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.

Jim

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++++Message 2263. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1st ed, 1st printing errors
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2005 4:32:00 PM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

"Lone Endeavor" (no "The" or "A" in the title) was removed after the first
printing. Namaste!
Just
Love,

Barefoot Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: snowlily [mailto:snowlily@gwi.net]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:20 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors

Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors

>
>
> Lester wrote
>
> Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing
> Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
>
> Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.
>
> The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition
>
> 1st Edition - 1st Printing
> - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."
> - 29 personal stories.
> - Price 3.50$.
> - Cover is red, only printing in red.
> - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.
> - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.
> - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.
> - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).
> - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.
> - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.
> - Published by Works Publishing Company.
>
> 1st Edition - 2nd Printing
> - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - 28 personal stories
> - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.
> - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.
> - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.
> - Jacket spine and front flap has print number.
> - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)
> - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
> - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.
> - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.
> - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People
> - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
> - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.
> - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.
> - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.
> - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."
> - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.
>
> 1st Edition - 3rd Printing
> - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.
> - Cover changed to light blue.
> - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.
> - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.
> - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.
> - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.
> - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.
> - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.
> - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.
> - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.
> - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.
> - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.
> - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.
> - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.
> - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.
> - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.
>
> 1st Edition - 4th Printing
> - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
> - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
> - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
> - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
> - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
> - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
> - P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
> - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
> - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
> - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
> - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
> - P398-L10, members to older members
> - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
> - P398-L16, this book, to this book.
> - P398-L16, send money to please send money.
>
> 1st Edition - 5th Printing
> - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."
> - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.
> - Last Big Book in size.
> - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."
> - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.
> - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.
> - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.
>
> 1st Edition - 6th Printing
> - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).
> - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.
> - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).
> - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).
>
> 1st Edition - 7th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.
> - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
> - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.
> - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.
> - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."
> - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.
> - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937
> - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.
> - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.
> - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.
> - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.
> - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.
> - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.
>
> 1st Edition - 8th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.
> - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
>
> 1st Edition - 9th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.
> - P323-L20, Two years to several years.
>
> 1st Edition - 10th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.
>
> 1st Edition - 11th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
> - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P178-L20, Him to HIM.
> - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
> - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.
>
> 1st Edition - 12th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Decreased height by 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 13th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .
>
> 1st Edition - 14th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 15th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased in height by 1/16.
> - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.
>
> 1st Edition - 16th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.
>
> Last printing of the First Edition.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2264. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lone Endeavor Story
From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2005 11:43:00 PM

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Sorry, I hit the wrong button, sent the beginning of my draft
on Pat C. (Lone Endeavor Story). Here is what i wanter to say.
Pat C. Read the manuscript and got sober. He wrote bill in NY
and the NY group took up a collection and sent Pat a bus ticket
to NY. They wanted to show off the power of the written
message. In the mean time the big book was in its final hours
before going to press. Ruth Hock who was Bill W.'s and Hank
P.'s sect. in there office in ND. rushed to writer Pats Story.
To their heart break, when the bus from Calf. pulled into the
NY station Pat C. was on the floor drunk. It was too late the
book had gone to press and the story had to stay for that
while.
Kilroy W
4021 Cuub
Philadelphia PA

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++++Message 2265. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fwd: Lords Prayer
From: Corky Forbes . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2005 9:35:00 PM

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We held hands in our meetings in Tulsa, Oklahoma when I came into the
program
May 4,1965.
I don't know when it had become a ritual. There were four groups in Tulsa at
that time.
Corky
----- Original Message -----
From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:35 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Fwd: Lords Prayer

It must have been either late 1972 or in the beginning of 1973 when someone
first reached out in an attempt to hold my hand at the end of the the A.A.
meeting in Philadelphia PA.

Strange enough, this was the same meeting that I had been going to at
least three years and I still don't remember any discussion on the change in
policy. Prior to that night we had always folded our hands in front of us
during
the prayer.

Kilroy W.
4021 Club
Philadelphia PA

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++++Message 2266. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lone Endeavor Story
From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/4/2005 11:29:00 PM

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The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some how got
a
copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)

--- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:

From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story

Lester wrote

Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.

Jim

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++++Message 2267. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gnostic AA...?
From: alev101@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/5/2005 7:12:00 AM

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I believe that this comment is untrue.

In Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt
after a month of reflection as to our character defects much
like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes
place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person
is required.

For sins between man and God we, ask God for forgiveness.
For those sins between man and man, we must seek out our man and ask
forgiveness directly.

That is how I explained the 9th step to my parents when I made my formal
direct amends.

Ava
(nice Jewish girl from Brooklyn and sober in AA)

In a message dated 3/1/2005 10:53:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, odat@utj.org
writes:

> I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some
> commentaries on them.
>
> I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual
> practices, and the practices of AA.
>
> Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?

No. But I've noticed the same thing.

Another mystical movement that formed around the same time is
called Kabbalah. It is Jewish mysticism. If you follow it you
will soon find that it sounds a lot like AA spiritual
principles. It is also a lot different in a number of ways just
as Gnosticism is different from AA spiritual principles in a
number of critical ways. The reason is that AA spiritual
principles are not a complete spiritual system. They are general
spiritual principles that can be found in any number of
religious disciplines. For instance... try reading the book "9
1/2 Mystics". It is a sort of biography of several contemporary
Jewish mystics who approach mysticism from slightly different
ways but have a common thread.

One of my Jewish buddies got sober outside of AA by going to a
group called Chabad. (They are a Jewish outreach sub-group of
Lubuvitch Chasidim. They are mystics.). Chabad runs a program
for getting off of drugs and alcohol. Not incidentally, Chabad
uses the spiritual principles outlined in Kabbalah (Jewish
mysticism). Brittany Spears and Madonna have been exploring
Kabbalah. [My own view on their spiritual journey deleted].

One should use caution when following mysticism and especially
Kabbalah. As it says in the Big Book, as one follows this
spiritual program one will begin to depend on intuition, but one
should use caution or one can be misled into all sort of absurd
action.

That is truth.

Kabbalah is quite similar is Islamic mysticism I am told.

Regarding the question of why an Islamic 12 step group would
leave out the part in Step 5 about sharing one's character
defects with one other person, I have a pretty good guess. In
Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt
after a month of reflection as to our character defects much
like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes
place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person
is required.

So... it is not the rabbi's business whether you have actually
made the amends or not. It is presumed that G-d knows your heart
and that you are not a liar. Thus, to present yourself as if you
have made amends, presumes that you have reflected properly upon
your character defects and not lied about making amends. To say
that another human being (unconnected to the amends) is required
to attain either reflection or amends, will be viewed as
suspect. After all... isn't G-d powerful enough? Since He *is*
powerful enough, then why is another person (other than the
parties directly involved) required? Well... He is powerful
enough, but at that point (of step 5) we have not yet
established a reliable connection with G-d. (my opinion). We
need someone else as a checkpoint. While I think I am correct in
my opinion, I recognize that other religious people might
disagree and see the requirement of another person in the
process as suggesting that G-d is not all powerful and thus be
tempted to remove that requirement.

Alex H.

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++++Message 2268. . . . . . . . . . . . Lone Endeavor
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/5/2005 3:02:00 PM

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An exchange of letters with a man in California became "Lone
Endeavor" as the last story of the first printing of the first
edition of the Big Book of "Alcoholics Anonymous." The story
was not included in later printings after the man arrived in
New York more than slightly intoxicated.

Did anyone other than Pat C himself verify that he was sober
for as long as he claimed at the time they decided to include
his "Lone Endeavor" story? His mother got the book manuscript
for him. Were there any letters from her saying Pat was sober?
Did they contact the doctors in the state sanitarium?

His letter said, "Six weeks ago I returned from the sanitarium
and your book was here waiting for me. I read, more pored over
it so as not to miss anything. I thought to myself, yes, this
is the only way. God is my only chance. I have prayed before but
I guess not the right way. I have followed out the suggestions
in the book, am happier at this moment than I have been for years.
I'm sure I have found the solution, thanks to ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS."
This does not include an actual sobriety claim like, "I have not
had any alcohol since that day."

He wrote, "I go down to the sanitarium every week for a check-up
and medicine which they give me, just a tonic, no sedative."
Never mind the no sedative part. In 1939, alcohol was a common
ingredient in what was called a tonic. Just what sort of tonic
was he using?

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++++Message 2269. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Lone Endeavor Story
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2005 9:58:00 AM

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First Edition Big Book - First Printing

On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the first edition of the book
“Alcoholics Anonymous” were published at $3.50 a copy (equivalent to
$46 today). The printer, Edward Blackwell of Cornwall Press, was told
to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large, bulky volume became
known as the Big Book and the name has stuck ever since. The idea
behind the thick and large paper was to convince the alcoholic he was
getting his money’s worth.

The book had 8 Roman and 400 Arabic numbered pages. “The Doctor’s
Opinion” started as page 1 and the basic text ended at page 174. Ray C
(whose Big Book story is “An Artist’s Concept”) designed the “circus
color” dust jacket (and alternate dust jacket).

The manuscript story of an Akron member “Ace Full - Seven - Eleven”
was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too pleased with changes
made to the first drafts of the Steps and text). 29 personal stories
were included: 10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1 from
the west coast (which was ghost written by Ruth Hock and removed from
the book in the second printing).

One of the stories “An Alcoholic’s Wife” was written by non-alcoholic
Marie B from Akron, OH. Dr Bob’s story was originally titled “The
Doctor’s Nightmare” and later changed to “Dr Bob’s Nightmare.”

First Edition Big Book - Second Printing

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the second
printing of the first edition Big Book. The term “spiritual
experience” was changed to “spiritual awakening” and the term “as
the
result of these steps” was changed to “as the result of those steps.”

Appendix II, “Spiritual Experience” was added to the book. This was
done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and
spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns
Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences were
of the type that the psychologist William James called the
“educational variety.”

The Herbert Spencer quote was added to Appendix II in the second
edition Big Book. It first appeared in the story “An Artists Concept”
by Ray C (who also designed the Big Book’s dust jacket). The Spencer
quote does not appear to be an accurate attribution. No written work
by Spencer can be found containing the quote.

The story “Lone Endeavor” (of Pat C from CA) was removed. It had been
ghost written by Ruth Hock. Pat, who claimed to have sobered up from a
manuscript copy of the Big Book, was invited to NY shortly after the
book was printed and arrived in NY quite drunk.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com [mailto:kilroy@ceoexpress.com]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:29 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story

The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some
how got a copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)

--- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:

From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story

Lester wrote

Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.

Jim

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++++Message 2270. . . . . . . . . . . . History related to the Growth of
Alcoholics Anonymous.
From: WCompWdsUnl@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/5/2005 10:01:00 PM

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Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I
am trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in
places all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I
am
interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from
city to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during
the
"flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities.

Thank you.

Larry W.
Atlanta, GA

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++++Message 2271. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing
From: Roger Wheatley . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2005 4:03:00 AM

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I found this letter dated Feb 1945 which would likely be sent from "Works
Publishing" to the fellowship explaining the paper reduction requirements of
the
war effort and the delay. Apparantly we ran out of books at the office
waiting
for this delivery. Perhaps as you indicate, it was trimmed down to 5000
copies
to get through the run and catch up on the publishers work.

Box 459 Grand Central Annex

New York 17, New York

February 12, 1945

NEW WAR TIME EDITION OF THE BOOK

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

Because of the acute shortage of book paper we have repeatedly, on order of
the
War Production Board, reduced the weight of the paper used in the book,
Alcoholics Anonymous.

We have now arrived at the point where because of further reductions in
paper we
must sharply cut the overall size of the book by trimming margins to a
minimum.
Happily we shall still be able to use the same book plates so the type face
will
be as readable as ever.

Practically every publisher has long ago been obliged to make these changes
so
we hope that AAs everywhere will understand the necessity for them and be
glad
of this small additional contribution to the war effort.

Our printers are a badly overworked firm and though this new edition was
arranged for many months ago, we are told there will be some delay on
delivery.
We will be out of books by February 15th and will probably not be able to
ship
copies of the new war time edition until after March first, how long after
we do
not yet know.

I hope you will all be patient if your orders are delayed somewhat. Please
be
sure we shall make shipments the moment we can.

WORKS PUBLISHING INC.

BY

Margaret R. Burger (signed)

Margaret R. Burger
Secretary

Keith Dunn <werdunn_99@yahoo.com> wrote:

Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.
The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing
date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000. The eighth printing
shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience suggests there
are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16
printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of
the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of
the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated
demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but
the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The
book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945. But, taking into
account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the fact that
the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th
printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and
the resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more
books (and profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay
within government guidelines. Any suggestions as to where to go for
information, or does anyone have any feedback on this?
Love and Service, Keith D

*****
Art, feel free to respond directly, and forward this to anyone who
can be of help. I didn't know if protocol dictated I send this
straight to the "group", or if I could send it to some archivists
directly. I am aware this is pretty "deep." I've done a lot of
research in the archive arena, and have few resources in Nebraska.
Thanks for your help.

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++++Message 2272. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World
War II
From: Roger Wheatley . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2005 3:41:00 AM

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History Lovers and Dolores,
I have the beginnings of a collection on this topic which includes the early
Grapevine column "Mail Call" which is now available on GV digital archives
to
any subscriber. Also we had teh opportunity to interview Pappy, reported as
the
oldest living member of AA in Belgium. When I asked him through an
interpreter
how AA started in Belgium 50 years ago (they celebrated in 2004) he gave
credit
to two Irish Soldiers who came over during WWII and stayed on in Belgium
marrying local girls. One of these men 12 stepped Pappy in 1951.
The Frankfurt Group celebrated their 50 year anniverary in 2004 and credited
Servce Members with their origins as well as groups in France. It would be
an
interesting project and I am willing to help uncover more history for anyone
capable of piecing it all together.
Dolores, when I move to your neck of the woods this summer, I would like to
go
through the local archives and see what we can learn or what leads we can
generate.
Roger

Dolores Rinecker <dollie@t-online.de> wrote:

Hi, I am interested in getting more history about the Servicemen who were
stationed in West Germany right after the WWII. I have put some history
together and am interested in getting more. The first meetings were held in
Frankfurt in 1948. All the early groups were Loner groups. Those men were
very influencial in getting english speaking AA going here on the Continent.
I
have put together a short history of the history over here and if you are
interested I can send a copy to you. Bill W. was asked to speak at the
Wiesbaden Round-up in 1962 but "graciosly declined". I am looking for more
history to fill in the empty spaces-years. Hope to hear from you. Yours in
AA Dolores R.

"righteousthug" <righteousthug@dellmail.com> schrieb:
>
>
>
> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
> think about it.
>
> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.
>
> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
> diaspora because of the aviation industry.
>
> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.
>
> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
> that WWII had on the spread of AA?
>
> /rt
> 6/14/88
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2273. . . . . . . . . . . . 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?
From: tflynn96 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2005 11:36:00 AM

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If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.

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++++Message 2274. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2005 2:19:00 PM

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There are six "tenets" mentioned on page xvi of our Big Book: "Though he
could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups, he was convinced of
the need for moral inventory, confession of personality defects, restitution
to those harmed, helpfulness to others, and the necessity of belief in and
dependence upon God." These were doubtless the basis for the Six Steps
listed in the Story 'He Sold Himself Short." (p.292 - 3rd edition or p.
263 - 4th edition). It is my understanding that the OG had twenty-eight
'tenets,' from which Bill Wilson selected these six.

Bob S., from Indiana

-----Original Message-----
From: tflynn96 [mailto:flynn22896@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:36 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?

If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2275. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Lone Endeavor Story
From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2005 4:08:00 AM

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for information.

there is a book put out by dicobe tapes;
Dicobe Tapes
1020 Lincoln Road
Bellevue, NE 68005
Phone: (402) 291-3381
Fax: (402) 292-6148
Email: dicobesales@dicobe.com
http://www.bellevuenebraska.com/audiovideo.html

that is a complete set of the 'stories no longer in print'
as they appeared in the 1st and 2nd editions of the big book.

i have it, read it and found it fascinating.

billyk

--- ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:

>
> First Edition Big Book - First Printing
>
> On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the first edition of the book
> “Alcoholics Anonymous” were published at $3.50 a copy (equivalent to
> $46 today). The printer, Edward Blackwell of Cornwall Press, was told
> to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large, bulky volume became
> known as the Big Book and the name has stuck ever since. The idea
> behind the thick and large paper was to convince the alcoholic he was
> getting his money’s worth.
>
> The book had 8 Roman and 400 Arabic numbered pages. “The Doctor’s
> Opinion” started as page 1 and the basic text ended at page 174. Ray
> C
> (whose Big Book story is “An Artist’s Concept”) designed the
“circus
> color” dust jacket (and alternate dust jacket).
>
> The manuscript story of an Akron member “Ace Full - Seven - Eleven”
> was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too pleased with changes
> made to the first drafts of the Steps and text). 29 personal stories
> were included: 10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1
> from
> the west coast (which was ghost written by Ruth Hock and removed from
> the book in the second printing).
>
> One of the stories “An Alcoholic’s Wife” was written by
non-alcoholic
> Marie B from Akron, OH. Dr Bob’s story was originally titled “The
> Doctor’s Nightmare” and later changed to “Dr Bob’s Nightmare.”
>
> First Edition Big Book - Second Printing
>
>
>
> In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the second
> printing of the first edition Big Book. The term “spiritual
> experience” was changed to “spiritual awakening” and the term “as
the
> result of these steps” was changed to “as the result of those
steps.”
>
>
>
> Appendix II, “Spiritual Experience” was added to the book. This was
> done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and
> spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns
> Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences
> were
> of the type that the psychologist William James called the
> “educational variety.”
>
>
>
> The Herbert Spencer quote was added to Appendix II in the second
> edition Big Book. It first appeared in the story “An Artists Concept”
> by Ray C (who also designed the Big Book’s dust jacket). The Spencer
> quote does not appear to be an accurate attribution. No written work
> by Spencer can be found containing the quote.
>
>
>
> The story “Lone Endeavor” (of Pat C from CA) was removed. It had been
> ghost written by Ruth Hock. Pat, who claimed to have sobered up from
> a
> manuscript copy of the Big Book, was invited to NY shortly after the
> book was printed and arrived in NY quite drunk.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Arthur
>
> _____
>
> From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com [mailto:kilroy@ceoexpress.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:29 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story
>
>
>
>
> The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some
> how got a copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)
>
> --- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
> From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story
>
>
>
>
> Lester wrote
>
> Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?
>
> I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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++++Message 2276. . . . . . . . . . . . Allergy theory
From: charlieindallas . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2005 3:38:00 AM

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Gentlemen:

In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that
alcoholism is not a true allergy".

Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find
anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.

I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books
written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another
title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.

Grandaddy

Charles Rutherford
AKA Charlie "Brown"
The Lambda Group

Residence 119
5109 Cedar Springs Road
Dallas, TX 75235-8723
214-528-1553

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++++Message 2277. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: old preamble
From: charlieindallas . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2005 3:45:00 AM

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I am sure that many people have written to inform you that this is
the "TEXAS PREAMBLE". The ending few words are a litle fifferent
from the way I remember it. Check with the Dallas Central Office.-

-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Nickerson" <dcm19@m...>
wrote:
> Does anyone know the origin of this?
>
> "We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we
are
> powerless over alcohol and unable to do anything about it without
> the help of a Power greater than ourselves. We feel that each
> person's religious views, if any are his own affair. The simple
> purpose of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is to show what may
> be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves
> regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be.
>
> In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do
> to that Power, we must at first apply ourselves with some
diligence.
> By often repeating these acts, they become habitual and the help
> rendered becomes natural to us.
>
> We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from
a
> serious illness for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may
be
> the result of an allergy which makes us different from other
people.
> It has never been by any treatment with which we are familiar,
> permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute
> abstinence, the second meaning of A. A.
>
> There are no dues or fees. The only requirement for membership is
a
> desire to stop drinking. Each member squares his debt by helping
> others to recover.
>
> An Alcohoiics Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application
and
> adherence to the A. A. program has forsworn the use of any and all
> alcoholic beverage in any form. The moment he takes so much as one
> drop of beer, wine, spirits or any other alcoholic beverage he
> automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous
> A.A. is not interested In sobering up drunks who are not sincere
in
> their desire to remain sober for all time. Not being reformers. we
> offer our experience only to those who want it.
>
> We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and on which we
> can join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail
who
> has thoroughly followed our program. Those who do not recover are
> people who will not or simply cannot give themselves to this
simple
> program. Now you may like this program or you may not, but the
fact
> remains, it works. It is our only chance to recover.
>
> There is a vast amount of fun in the A.A. fellowship. Some people
> might be shocked at our seeming worldliness and levity but just
> underneath there lies a deadly earnestness and a full realization
> that we must put first things first and with each of us the first
> thing is our alcoholic problem. To drink is to die. Faith must
work
> twenty-four hours a day in and through us or we perish.
>
> In order to set our tone for this meeting I ask that we bow our
> heads in a few moments of silent prayer and meditation.
>
> I wish to remind you that whatever is said at this meeting
expresses
> our own individual opinion as of today and as of up to this
moment.
> We do not speak for A.A. as a whole and you are free to agree or
> disagree as you see fit, in fact. it is suggested that you pay no
> attention to anything which might not he reconcilied with what is
in
> the A. A. Big Book.
>
> If vou dont have a Big Book. it's time you bought you one. Read
it.
> study it, live with it, loan it, scatter it, and then learn from
it
> what it means to be an A.A."

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++++Message 2278. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History related to the Growth of
Alcoholics Anonymous.
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2005 9:43:00 PM

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For the city by city spread of A.A. for 1944 thru 1948,
check the archives of this AA History Lovers forum like:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messagesearch/1451?quer
y=gr\

apevine%20circuit%20tcumming [7]

That is a series of monthly "News Circuit" articles from the
AA Grapevine. If you subscribe to the AA Grapevine Archives,
you can pull up the same articles there.

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++++Message 2279. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History related to the Growth of
Alcoholics Anonymous.
From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2005 9:22:00 PM

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Interesting project, Larry.

I'm not sure if your thesis is that AA tends to spread according to
certain patterns? If that is so, you might be interested in the Havana
and Beijing examples, cases with which I'm directly familiar.

The first AA meeting in Cuba took place in the Vedado neighborhood of
Havana in January, 1993. Within two years there were several more
groups in various sections of Havana. In addition to the usual reasons
for growth (word of mouth, resentments), growth was accelerated in this
case by the sorry state of public transportation in Havana at that
time, a result of the loss of Soviet fuel subsidies. Travel was
principally by bicycle, and burdensome if you lived more than a couple
of miles from a meeting. I'm told this difficulty was a major factor in
new group formation.

Beijing's first Chinese (as against ex-patriate) meetings were held in
the An Ding Hospital among current and former inpatients, in 2001. The
meetings were tolerated by the authorities, despite a dislike of
"spiritual programs," and the members were given to believe that
meetings outside of the hospital would be frowned upon. However, when
the SARS epidemic struck in 2003, the hospital was quarantined and the
AA group was freed up to seek other venues. There are now several
groups around Beijing, I believe.

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu

On Mar 5, 2005, at 22:01, WCompWdsUnl@aol.com wrote:

>
> Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA,
> chronologically? I
> am trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of
> AA, in
> places all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New
> York. I am
> interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship,
> from
> city to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible,
> during the
> "flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Larry W.
> Atlanta, GA

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++++Message 2280. . . . . . . . . . . . Dates at which AA was started in
specific cities
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2005 3:44:00 PM

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Larry W. (Atlanta GA) wrote in asking:

"Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I
am
trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in
places
all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I am
interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from
city
to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during the
"flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities."

Several people have written in responding to this question. To sum up what
they
said (so we don't have so many messages), one person wrote in saying that
there
is a book by Bob Pearson (with which I am unfamiliar) giving information on
this. It was pointed out that there are timelines at:

http://archivesinternational.org/

And (from the West Baltimore Group)at:

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/chronology_of_aa_groups.htm

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/times.htm

None of these seem to give the kind of detailed list that Larry is really
looking for, where it talks about the date at which AA was founded in
various
specific cities around the U.S. (and around the world), and has all this
information gathered together in one place.

There is also Archie M's timeline, which Arthur S. has been involved with,
but
about which I do not know the details.

At one point, Nancy Olson was posting in the AAHistoryLovers, every month, a
list of important dates in AA history: events that had happened during that
month in previous years. Nancy did in fact have the dates at which the first
AA
groups were formed in a number of cities. I think that this would be the
best
list for Larry W.'s purposes.

Messages 209, 212, 216, 218, and 590 are on this topic. But I cannot find
anywhere in the list of past messages, any of those monthly date lists that
Nancy put together. I do hope that no one went through and deleted those
messages.

Am I looking in the wrong place? Are Nancy's monthly date lists still there
among the past postings?

There are articles on the internet talking about AA in individual cities.
Detroit, for example, has a nice website. I have been trying to assemble
this
kind of material on Indiana AA history at http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html
giving the founding dates in cities such as Evansville, Indianapolis, Fort
Wayne, South Bend, Muncie, Anderson, and so on. But that's just Indiana, and
Larry wants a list that includes everyplace that AA has spread.

So once again, does anybody know where Larry can find, in one place, a list
of
when AA was founded in specific cities. None of the date lists and timelines
that have been sent in so far, seem to me to give what Larry is actually
looking
for.

G.C.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2281. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?
From: jst4tdy . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2005 2:55:00 PM

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Hi, on page 292 of the third edition Big Book you will find the six tenants
of the Oxford group. Bill M.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "tflynn96" <flynn22896@sbcglobal.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:36 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?

>
>
>
> If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
> that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
> about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
> can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
> Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2282. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lone Endeavor Story
From: ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2005 2:59:00
PM

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Hey billyk and Group,
Better yet, and more appropriate. for all the personal stories removed from
all
three Editions of Alcoholics Anonymous, order Experience, Strength, and Hope
from AAWS. There is much more archived there, including the early segments
"And
Now We Are..."
Many AAs try to support the Fellowship by purchasing Conference-approved
literature---imagine that!
rickt

----- Original Message -----
From: "billyk" <billyk3@yahoo.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:08 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story

>
>
> for information.
> there is a book put out by dicobe tapes;
> Dicobe Tapes
> that is a complete set of the 'stories no longer in print'
> as they appeared in the 1st and 2nd editions of the big book.
> i have it, read it and found it fascinating.
> billyk
>

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++++Message 2283. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Allergy theory
From: Billlwhite@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2005 11:28:00 AM

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Charles,

Dr. William Silkworth presented his allergy theory of alcoholism to
Bill W. (during Bill's stay in Towns Hospital in 1934), elaborated on this
theory in two articles in the late 1930s, and restated this theory in The
Doctors
Opinion in 1939.
The greatest elaboration of this concept is in: Silkworth, W. (1937).
Alcoholism as a Manifestation of Allergy. Medical Record, 145:249-251. Here
are
a
few representative quotes:

"...true alcoholism is a manifestation of allergy."
"...true alcoholism is an allergic state, the result of gradually
increasing sensitization by alcohol over a more or less extended period of
time."
"...compares to hay fever in terms of progressive exposure and then
full emergence of disease"
"The patient can not use alcohol at all for physiological reasons. He
must understand and accept the situation as a law of nature operating
inexorably. Once he has fully and intelligently grasped the facts of the
matter
he
will shape his policy accordingly."

The allergy theory gained little credence in the larger medical
community, although two references are worth noting. Robert Seliger used
allergy as
a metaphor to describe the alcoholic's "psychobiological sensitivity" to
alcohol in his 1937 article, The Problem of the Alcoholic in the Community
(American Journal of Psychiatry 95(3):701-716), and the psychiatrist Edward
Strecker
and the lay alcoholism therapist Francis Chambers spoke of a "psychic
allergy
to alcohol" in their 1938 book, Alcohol: One Man's Meat.
During the mid-1940s, the allergy theory was under scientific attack.
I suspect the "our friends" reference in Living Sober is to opinions
expressed by Howard Haggard and E.M. Jellinek of the Yale Center of Alcohol
Studies.
Haggard published the most definitive critique of the allergy theory
(Haggard,
H. (1944). Critique of the Concept of the Allergic Nature of Alcohol
Addiction. Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, 5:233-241.) He reviewed
the
available scientific evidence and concluded that there was no scientific
foundation for the idea of an allergy that creates a biologically abnormal
response to
alcohol among alcoholics.

Hope this helps.
Bill White

In a message dated 3/14/2005 2:38:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net writes:

> Subj: [AAHistoryLovers] Allergy theory
> Date: 3/14/2005 2:38:06 PM Eastern Standard Time
> From: chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net
> Reply-to: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gentlemen:
>
> In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that
> alcoholism is not a true allergy".
>
> Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find
> anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.
>
> I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books
> written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another
> title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.
>
> Grandaddy
>
> Charles Rutherford
> AKA Charlie "Brown"
> The Lambda Group
>
> Residence 119
> 5109 Cedar Springs Road
> Dallas, TX 75235-8723
> 214-528-1553
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2284. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?
From: Cloydg . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2005 4:58:00 PM

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Does anyone know whether or not Dr. Bob and Bill W. did their steps over
after writing chapter 5? It's my understanding that shortly after Dr. Bob
quit drinking on June10, 1935. He and Bill did their steps together over a
few hours using the 6 tenents. Any information would be appreciated!

Love and service, Clyde G.

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++++Message 2285. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dates at which AA was started in
specific cities
From: ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2005 3:44:00
AM

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I need to inform the group that Bob Pearson's AA history book was much more
about the history of the General Service Office than specific growth of
selected cities and AA "Chapters." In my own view of the draft manuscript,
the scope of specific cities' growth was not covered extremely well in it. I
learned a great deal about the GSO relation to the General Service
Conference, and Bob P. did write about trends in AA
with a keen insight.

His book was never published, but was severely compromised from photocopying
by
1988s Delegates, which means that there are unauthorized copies of it
floating
around.

Here are some facts, worthy of further on-site study at the AA Archives at
GSO. There is no better access that I know of outside of in-person, approved
research. Write and call first!

The 1940s Alcoholic Foundation Office described our growth as taking hold in
"Chapters" (cities) and "Sections" (a number of Groups close to each other
in different sections of states or counties, such as, the Long Island
section, the northwest Illinois section, the New England section, etc.). At
Bill+Lois' home in Katonah, NY (Bedford Hills), Bill's writing studio has a
1950s US map with many pins placed where AA Chapters flourished. It is
current to around 1960 and was moved from one of the GSOs to his home and
the "Wit's End" studio ledge.

The most accurate resource of original dates. locations, and growth is the
record of the AA Directories, published every six months beginning in 1940.
Towns, cities, membership numbers, group secretaries names and addresses,
group addresses (PO boxes), telephone numbers, and even semi-annual group
contributions are recorded from registered Groups.

Group membership numbers and contributions are no longer presented in the AA
Directories published today, but the earliest records are still being
researched through the AA Archives in NYC.

Yours in fellowship,
Rick T., Illinois

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Chesnut" <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
To: "AAHistoryLovers group" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:44 PM

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++++Message 2286. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2005 12:58:00 AM

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Actually there are no "6 tenets" mentioned on page xvi of
the Big Book. What it states is:

"From this doctor, the broker had learned the grave nature of
alcoholism. Though he could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford
Groups, he was convinced of the need for moral inventory, confession
of personality defects, restitution to those harmed, helpfulness to
others, and the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."

Those "tenets" only add up to 5.

Core principles of the Oxford Group consisted of: the "4 absolutes" of
honesty, unselfishness, purity and love; the "5 C's" of confidence,
confession, conviction, conversion and continuance; and the "5
procedures" of: 1) Give in to God, 2) Listen to God's direction, 3)
Check guidance, 4) Restitution and 5) Sharing for witness and
confession. The OG gave AA the term "sharing." They were also strong
advocates of one member working with another. Dr Bob wrote that this
was a key part of the message carried to him by Bill W when they first
met.

Prior to the writing of the Big Book, the recovery program consisted
of 6 steps passed on to new members by word of mouth. There are 4
differing versions of the 6 steps recorded in AA Literature. They can
be found in the books "The Language of the Heart" (pg 200), "AA Comes
of Age" (pg 160), "Pass It On" (pg 197), the Big Book Pioneer story
"He Sold Himself Short" (pg 292 - 3rd ed, pg 263 - 4th ed) and in the
pamphlet "Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W, Co-Founder of
Alcoholics Anonymous" (pg 8).

Sometimes reference is made to the "6 steps of the Oxford Group." This
is not accurate. The OG did not have any Steps (or "6 tenets" per se).
The alcoholic members of the Akron and New York groups (sometimes
called the "alcoholic squad") developed the "word-of-mouth" versions
of the early 6 steps.

The book "Not God" in its extensive collection of end notes (pg 331,
end note 32) states "AA legend has it that these six steps derived
directly from the OG; this is simply wrong."

In a July 1953 Grapevine Article titled "A Fragment of History: Origin
of the Twelve Steps" Bill W wrote:

". the main channels of inspiration for our Steps were three in number
- the Oxford Groups, Dr William D Silkworth of Towns Hospital and the
famed psychologist, William James, called by some the father of modern
psychology."

"During the next three years after Dr Bob's recovery our growing
groups at Akron, New York and Cleveland evolved the so-called
word-of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we commenced to form
a society separate from the Oxford Group, we began to state our
principles something like this:

1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol.

2. We got honest with ourselves.

3. We got honest with another person, in confidence.

4. We made amends for harms done others.

5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or
money.

6. We prayed to God to help us to do these things as best we could.

Though these principles were advocated according to the whim or liking
of each of us, and though in Akron and Cleveland they still stuck by
the OG absolutes of honesty, purity, unselfishness and love, this was
the gist of our message to incoming alcoholics up to 1939, when our
present Twelve Steps were put to paper."

In "AA Comes of Age" (pg 160) Bill wrote: "Since Ebby's visit to me in
the fall of 1934, we had gradually evolved what we called "the
word-of-mouth program". Most of the basic ideas had come from the
Oxford Groups, William James and Dr. Silkworth. Though subject to
considerable variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent
procedure, which comprised six steps. These were approximately as
follows:

1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over
alcohol.

2. We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins.

3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person
in confidence.

4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our
drinking.

5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward
in money or prestige

6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to
practice these precepts."

Compare the previous two versions with the version below stated by
Bill in an April 1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society on Alcoholism.
It illustrates the ways variances can enter into a "word-of-mouth"
program. In describing the visit made by Ebby T to his home, Bill
wrote:

"Next Ebby enumerated the principles he had learned from the Oxford
Group. In substance here they are as my friend applied them to himself
in 1934:

1. Ebby admitted that he was powerless to manage his own life.

2. He became honest with himself as never before; made an
"examination of conscience."

3. He made a rigorous confession of his personal defects and
thus quit living alone with his problems.

4. He surveyed his distorted relations with other people,
visiting them to make what amends he could.

5. He resolved to devote himself to helping others in need,
without the usual demands for personal prestige or material gain.

6. By meditation, he sought God's direction for his life and the
help to practice these principles of conduct at all times."

AA's group number one, in Akron, OH (and later other groups in the
mid-West) were more closely aligned with the OG movement and stayed a
part of the OG until 1939 (the NY group left the OG in 1937). In his
Big Book story "He Sold Himself Short" Earl T (pioneer AA in Chicago)
records a version of the 6 steps used in Akron at the time. Dr. Bob
was his sponsor. The description by Earl varies from the versions used
in New York and is a much more orthodox portrayal of the Oxford
Group's influence:

1. Complete deflation.

2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power.

3. Moral inventory.

4. Confession.

5. Restitution.

6. Continued work with other alcoholics.

Although semantic variances exist, the substance is all the same.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:19 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?

There are six "tenets" mentioned on page xvi of our Big Book: "Though
he
could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups, he was convinced
of
the need for moral inventory, confession of personality defects,
restitution
to those harmed, helpfulness to others, and the necessity of belief in
and
dependence upon God." These were doubtless the basis for the Six
Steps
listed in the Story 'He Sold Himself Short." (p.292 - 3rd edition or
p.
263 - 4th edition). It is my understanding that the OG had
twenty-eight
'tenets,' from which Bill Wilson selected these six.

Bob S., from Indiana

-----Original Message-----
From: tflynn96 [mailto:flynn22896@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:36 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?

If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.

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++++Message 2287. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Allergy theory
From: kyyank@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2005 5:38:00 PM

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There are also some additional quotes and references in Silkworth, The
Little
Doctor Who Loved Drunks, Hazelden Publishing, 2002, Mitchel

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++++Message 2288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2005 6:06:00 PM

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The best book on the Oxford Group remains Walter Houston Clark's, *The
Oxford Group: Its History and Significance.* You should be able to
find it in any good library. It is a bit expensive on the used book
sites, but remains from preferable to anything by more recent authors,
especially OG insiders.

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++++Message 2289. . . . . . . . . . . . "Tail of a Comet," was "6 tenets of
the Oxford Group?
From: John G . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2005 9:53:00 PM

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Any thoughts about Garth Lean's Frank Buchman biography, "On the Tail of a
Comet?" I'm reading it now, and enjoying it very much, though his quick
chronology on the history of AA founding seems somewhat inaccurate.

John G.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ernest Kurtz [mailto:kurtzern@umich.edu]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:06 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?

The best book on the Oxford Group remains Walter Houston Clark's, *The
Oxford Group: Its History and Significance.* You should be able to
find it in any good library. It is a bit expensive on the used book
sites, but remains from preferable to anything by more recent authors,
especially OG insiders.

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++++Message 2290. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Allergy theory
From: cck . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2005 1:12:00 AM

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charlieindallas <chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Gentlemen:

In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that
alcoholism is not a true allergy".

Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find
anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.

I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books
written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another
title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.

Grandaddy

Charles Rutherford
AKA Charlie "Brown"
The Lambda Group

Residence 119
5109 Cedar Springs Road
Dallas, TX 75235-8723
214-528-1553

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++++Message 2291. . . . . . . . . . . . Nancy O. in hospital
From: Naomi Blankenship . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2005 1:00:00 PM

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Nancy was taken to Mary Washington Hospital on Friday the 11th of
March after a fall. Possible broken leg, maybe hip also. I am
unaware of more details at this time.

Naomi

=========================================
From G.C. (South Bend)

The latest information I have is that both her leg and hip were broken, but
that
the doctors decided they would not try to operate, because her heart is so
weak.
So she has to stay in bed lying down, and they are giving her massive pain
killers and trying to keep her as comfortable as possible. But she is still
in
a lot of pain. I think we are all aware that there is no good prognosis at
this
point.

I don't have any other information past this point. She is in Virginia and I
am
in Indiana, so I am too far distant to have detailed information. This most
recent information I have came via telephone from Lori, an AA friend of hers
in
Frederickburg, around noon today (Wednesday).

Nancy can't handle receiving messages at this point. She's drifting in and
out,
and wouldn't be able to understand them.

I will post additional information as I receive it. Since there are over a
thousand members of the AAHistoryLovers, I won't be able to respond to
individual emails on this -- I apologize in advance, but there would be
hundreds
I'm sure, because we all loved her so much.

I'm very sorry to have to pass this news along. We just need to pray for her
at
this point. She is in the Lord's hands, and he will be good to her.

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++++Message 2292. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Allergy theory
From: MarionORedstone@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2005 9:32:00 AM

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Not God is now published under the name "The Story"

Marion O. Redstone, Atty.
Indianapolis, Indiana

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++++Message 2293. . . . . . . . . . . . Dates when AA was established in
individual cities
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2005 2:13:00 PM

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Larry W. (Atlanta GA) wrote in asking:

"Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I
am
trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in
places
all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I am
interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from
city
to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during the
"flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities."

Nancy Olson once had a list put together with a lot of these dates, but the
list
seems to have disappeared. She got a lot of her dates from pages on the
website
put together by Doug B. (Riverside, California), beginning with:

http://www.aahistory.com/jan.html

It took Nancy a lot of work to cull out the dates she actually needed, but
Doug's date list represents a lot of really good research. It doesn't give
every
city in the world, but it is the closest thing I have found so far to what
Larry
W. was asking for.

It would be a really good piece of service work if someone put together a
list
like the one Larry W. wants. Looking at Doug's list would be the first thing
someone would want to do in assembling such a list.

The next thing a person would want to do, would be to look at what "t" has
assembled:

This is a series of postings which tcumming (Denton TX) sent in to the
AAHistoryLovers, starting with post 1183 [Metropolitan Circuit, June 44]
posted
on 8/2/03 and ending with post 1450 [New Groups, Aug 48] posted on 11/2/03.
This
is material from the Grapevine.The New Groups columns will probably be
easiest
to pull the info from ... then the Metropolitan Circuit and News Circuit
columns
will require a bit more work to pull out names of groups mentioned that were
already in existence [or somehow slid by a New Groups mention].

To look at these messages, call up
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages/ and there
will be
a place to type in the number of the particular message you want to see,
marked
Msg #.

You will be able to pick them out of the list of messages easily, because
they
will all have been posted by tcumming.

http://archivesinternational.org/AI/Documents/pdf/groups.pdf gives a list of
the first 22 cities where AA groups were established, although not the date
of
the first AA meeting held there. That is very useful information though.

Somebody putting a good list together would need to search on the internet
for
the AA websites for specific cities, like Detroit. Some of them have some
historical information on there, including sometimes the date at which the
first
AA group was founded in that city.

I think it would also be useful to include a short timeline which was sent
to me
by "t" (Denton TX), because there are some dates on that list that would
need to
be included:

======================================

First AA Locations (many had more than one group by the end of 1940 )

Akron June 10, 1935 - Dr. Bob has last drink (some say it may have been June
17,
based on date of medical convention he attended.) ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
FOUNDED

Nov-Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford Group.

Meetings moved from T.Henry & Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and other members
homes.

Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.

New York Fall & Winter 1935 - Bill back in New York. Begin to hold meetings
at
182 Clinton St. Tuesday nights. Hank P and Fitz M get sober.

1937 - Bill and the New York alcoholics split from the Oxford Group. Among
residents at Clinton St. were Ebby T., Oscar V., Russell R., Bill C.,
Florence
R.

June 18, 1940 - Meeting held in first 'AA clubhouse', at 334½ W. 24th St,
NYC.
Bert T. & Horace C. guarantee rent for building.

Washington DC 1937 - Fitz M. was spending much of his time trying to get AA
started in Washington, by ... fall of 1939 - the nucleus of a small group
had
been established. Joined by Hardin C., Bill A. and Florence R

Cleveland May 11, 1939 - The first group to officially call itself
Alcoholics
Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland, OH - old Borton Group (?). 1st
group to have no Oxford Group connection.

Dec 1940 - A.A. Cleveland has about 30 groups.

Toledo summer 1939 - Charles ("C.J.") K. & Eddie B. 12 stepped Duke P.
Toledo,
both were in state insane asylum, Toledo, on voluntary commitments, had read
Big
Book manuscript and got out. Sept 1940 - AA group started in Toledo, Duke P
&
others started it.

Chicago Sept 1939 - group started by Earl T in Chicago/Evanston. The first
meeting held outside the Chicago Chapter was located in Sterling, Illinois,
on a
March Wednesday night in 1943 at the home of Ken S.

San Francisco November 1939 - (from correspondence & no other info provided)

Rockland State Hospital Dec 1939 - First AA group in mental institution,
Rockland State Hospital, NY.

Los Angeles Dec 1939 - 1st home meeting Los Angeles Kaye M.'s house

Detroit & Youngstown 1939 - Meetings being held in Detroit. Archie T. &
nonalcoholic friend Sarah Klein helped start; expanded into Youngstown.

St. Louis 1939 - Father Ed Dowling responsible founding A.A. St. Louis

Greenwich Connecticut 1939 - Marty M pioneered group at Blythwood Sanitarium

Philadelphia Feb 1940 - Jimmy B. moved there & started group

Houston April 1, 1940 - started by Larry J. of Houston, who wrote "The Texas
Prayer". He is also said to have written the "Texas Preamble". Additionally,
he
wrote a series of articles for a Houston Paper which were collected and
reprinted as the first AA pamphlet/booklet distributed by the New York
office.

Little Rock April 19, 1940 - Little Rock, Arkansas group was formed. First
'mail
order' group.

Evansville, Indiana April or May 1940 - met in J[ames] D. H.'s home, 420
South
Denby Street. (from correspondence)

Richmond, Va June 6, 1940 - AA group founded in Richmond, Virginia.

Baltimore June 13, 1940 - Jimmy B helped Jim R start group in Baltimore.

Indianapolis October 28, 1940 - Doherty S credited with starting AA in
Indianapolis.

Ashtabula, Ohio Dec 1940 - group started Ashtabula, Ohio due to Plain Dealer
articles.

Boston 1940 - Paddy K. founded A.A. Boston

High Watch Farm 1940 - 1st A.A. oriented drying facility 'High Watch Farm'
in
Kent, Connecticut.

_________________ Added Information _________________

In an October 1, 1940 report to the Trustees, Bill W. estimated the A.A.
membership as follows:

Akron, Ohio 200

Jackson, Mich. 15

Baltimore, Md. 12

Little Rock, Ark. 27

Camden, NJ. 5

Los Angeles, Cal. 100

Chicago, Ill. 100

New York City 150

Cleveland, Ohio 450

Philadelphia, Pa 75

Coldwater, Mich. 8

Richmond, Va. 20

Dayton, Ohio 6

San Francisco, Cal. 15

Detroit, Mich. 30

Toledo, Ohio 6

Evansville, Ind. 24

Washington DC 100

Greenwich, Conn. 25

Waunakee, Wis. 20

Houston, Texas 30

Youngstown, Ohio 15

22 Cities 1433 Total

======================================

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++++Message 2294. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Allergy theory
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2005 3:39:00 PM

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Please. may I try to clear up this confusion. Not-God was first
published in 1979. Sometime around 1985, in an effort to pre-empt Nan
Robertson's coming book on AA, Hazelden arranged with another publisher
to put out a somewhat abridged version under the title "AA: The Story."
It never did well, deservedly.

In 1991, Hazelden re-issued Not-God under its original title and with
all the original material (including the infamous notes) plus an
"appendix" taking the story from Bill W's death in 1971 to the
anniversary of 1985. That edition, in paperback and with a dark blue
cover, is still in print. In my experience, it seems easier to purchase
from Amazon than from Hazelden. Search under the title -- Not-God -- or
under my name.

Thanks.

Ernest Kurtz

MarionORedstone@aol.com wrote:

>
> Not God is now published under the name "The Story"
>
> Marion O. Redstone, Atty.
> Indianapolis, Indiana
>

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++++Message 2295. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2005 4:06:00 PM

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To complement the information Arthur posted on 3/14/05, this is from a
footnote, #2, on page 206 of the book Pass It On:

In later years, some A.A. members referred to this procedure as the six
steps of the Oxford Group. Rev. T. Willard Hunter, who spent 18 years in
full-time staff positions for the Oxford Group and M.R.A., said, "I never
once saw or heard anything like the Six Tenets. It would be impossible to
find them in any Oxford Group - M.R.A. literature. I think they must have
been written by someone else under some form of misapprehension."

We may be seeing an example of the fact that oral history passed down over
the years is often inaccurate if not wrong.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 2296. . . . . . . . . . . . More info on Helen Wynn?
From: mojo@halfaworldaway.org . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2005 5:13:00 PM

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Googling Helen Wynn doesn't get me much. Can anyone point me to the
best sources for more info? Thanks!

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++++Message 2297. . . . . . . . . . . . Identifying three people in "More
About Alcoholism"
From: saturntad . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2005 11:05:00 AM

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I need help finding out who some of the characters are, that are
referred to in chapter 3 of the Big Book, "More About Alcoholism."

1. On page 32, 2nd paragraph, "A man of thirty". Who was this man?
2. On page 35, 2nd paragraph, ... a friend we shall call Jim. Who
was this man?
3. On page 39, 2nd paragraph, "Fred is a partner...". Who was this
man?

Thank you!

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++++Message 2298. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: More info on Helen Wynn?
From: David Grant . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2005 6:02:00 PM

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There is quite a bit of content about Helen in "Bill W. by Francis
Hartigan."

Cheers,

David G.

----- Original Message -----
From: <mojo@halfaworldaway.org>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 5:13 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] More info on Helen Wynn?

>
>
>
> Googling Helen Wynn doesn't get me much. Can anyone point me to the
> best sources for more info? Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2299. . . . . . . . . . . . National Meeting Directories
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2005 3:37:00 PM

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Dear AA history Lovers Group,

While reflecting on my 1951 AA World Group Directory I began to wonder when
the very first NATIONAL MEETING directories were printed. .. .. and whether
they are on display at the GSO Archives office.

Information would be appreciated – thanks in advance.

Bob S.

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++++Message 2300. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: National Meeting Directories
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2005 6:38:00 PM

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Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] National Meeting Directories

While reflecting on my 1951 AA World Group Directory I began to wonder when
the very first NATIONAL MEETING directories were printed. .. .. and whether
they are on display at the GSO Archives office.

First appeared as "List of AA Groups as of February 1946."

It included one group in the Canal Zone, Mexico (1), Australia (1), Canada
(4), England (1).

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++++Message 2301. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Identifying three people in
"More About Alcoholism"
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2005 7:07:00 PM

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I need help finding out who some of the characters are, that are referred
to in chapter 3 of the Big Book, "More About Alcoholism."

1. On page 32, 2nd paragraph, "A man of thirty." Who was this man?

This story was adapted from the chapter "First Steps" in the book Common
Sense of Drinking by Richard Peabody.

2. On page 35, 2nd paragraph, ... a friend we shall call Jim. Who was this
man?

Ralph Furlong, "Another Prodigal Story" (1st Edition)

3. On page 39, 2nd paragraph, "Fred is a partner...." Who was this man?

Harry Brick, "A Different Slant" (1st Edition) He sued the Alcoholic
Foundation for money loaned to print the Big Book.

Lee C. of CA, produced a document titled "Between the Lines" which explains
the people and places mentioned in the first 164 pages of the BB and Dr.
Bob's story.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

MODERATOR: Let me add to Jim's message some additional info from two other
people who wrote in at the same time.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

From: lester gother <lgother@optonline.net> Date: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:21pm

Lester adds that Ralph F. was from Springfield, Mass., and Harry B. was from
New
York.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

From: "Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net> Date: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:18pm

Diz adds that Peabody's book did not identify the "man of thirty" in that
story.

Harry B. (whose story was "A Different Slant") later got drunk.

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++++Message 2302. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The first 12 members to join
Alcoholics Anonymous
From: Ron Sessions . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2005 12:23:00 AM

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Hello all -

My first chance to post in this group – I want to thank all of you
for so much effort and time – great information here - very helpful!

I know this is a little late – but I just joined this group recently
and ran across a post I wanted to reply to while searching the
archives for "Between the Lines".

(All page numbers refer to `Alcoholics Anonymous' 3rd Edition)

Here is how I see what is stated on pages 158-159 regarding the `A
year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more.'
statement:

OK, You have Bill W. and Dr. Bob – they 12th step Bill D. – then
these three 12th step the devil may care chap (Ernie G. who later
married Bob's daughter Sue). That makes four. After Ernie sobers up,
Bill W. returns home, leaving three in Akron.

I believe the `three' mentioned on page 159 are Dr. Bob, Bill D. and
Ernie - they succeeded with seven more in the next year and six
months. The following pages (159, 160 and 161) speak exclusively of
Akron and its environs. At the bottom of page 161 New York is finally
mentioned (eastern cities). So the seven in the first year and a half
only speaks of Akron area folks – not New York area.

At least that is how I read it.

Also – I would like to get of copy of the document titled "Between
the Lines" by Lee C. of CA mentioned by Jim Blair in message # 2301
if possible.

Thanks – Ron Sessions

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lee Carroll"
<mcarroll@b...> wrote:
> Keith M. asked about the first twelve into AA. During my research
on
> the People Places and Things Mentioned in the First 164 pages of the
> Book, I have come up with the following:
>
> re; Page159 Who were the "seven more?"
>
> Akron
> Ernie Galbraith 9/35 ("The Seven Month Slip")
> Phil S. 9/35 - First AA court case
> Tom Lucas,11/35 or 12/37, ("My Wife and I")
> Walter Bray, 2/36, ("The Backslider")
> Joe Doppler, 4/36, ("The European Drinker")
> Paul Stanley, 7/36, (Truth Freed Me")
>
> NY
> Fitz Mayo, 10/35, ("Our Southern Friend")
> Hank Parkhurst, 11/35, ("The Unbeliever")
> William Ruddell, 11/35 or 1/37 ("A Business Man's Recovery")
> Myron Williams, 4/36, ("Hindsight")
>
> Granted, this is more than "seven more," but that is because some
of
> these folks drank again and came back (two dates next to their
name)
> Most, as you can see, were stories in the First Edition.
>
> I have a list of the first 100 (more or less). I'll see if I can
find
> it.
>
> Lee
>
>
> >>> dangerousa@y... 02/03/03 05:47PM >>>
> Hello, AA History Lovers, I am trying to find information on who
the
> first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous were and the order in
> which they joined? The source of information used to determine this
> is also helpful.
>
> Thank you,
> Keith M.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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++++Message 2303. . . . . . . . . . . . Pink Seven
From: cdknapp@pacbell.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2005 3:21:00 AM

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Hello group,
I was asked a question that I could not answer or find on the
Internet. I was wondering if any of you can help. In "Physician,
Heal Thyself!" Earle uses a term "know as Pink Seven" on page 304 in
the 4th Ed. Can any one give me a definition of this term? Thanking
you in advance.
Charles from California

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++++Message 2304. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: National Meeting Directories
From: ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2005 3:33:00
AM

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hello Group,

From my research and notes, the first National Directories were
booklet-published in the spring of 1940 by the Alcoholic Foundation office.
The
"LISTING OF A.A. GROUPS WITH THE ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION" directories were
updated
every six months. The printed documents reported group membership numbers,
locations, meeting nights, and contact addresses for the groups (when
available
as P.O. Boxes, otherwise the names and addresses of Group Secretaries).
Later
directories published contribution amounts, telephone numbers (beginning in
1947), and discontinued the semi-annual booklet printing sometime in the
1950s.

The AA Archives at GSO will not provide photocopies, due to current
confidentiality policies. Judit Olah, Archivist, has a staff of three who
reply
to requests on the history of specific groups, and I'm sure that information
on
the original meetings (or any group's meetings) in any given city would be
provided on request. The first place the research staff would go is the
printed
semi-annual "Listing" that was sorted alphabetically by State and cities in
that
State. Today, no one may get the early contact names but would receive
details
of the group's earliest recorded information.

Write: The AA Archives,General Service Office, 475 Riverside Drive, 11th
Floor,
New York, NY 10115

of note: ACROSS THE UNITED STATES IN 1940: 59 active groups, 1,400 members
(courtesy of the AA Archives and used with permission).

Yours in fellowship, Rick T., Illinois

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++++Message 2305. . . . . . . . . . . . FW: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2005 3:51:00 PM

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The questions about the tenets of the Oxford Group prompts me to comment on
the
important influence religion had on early AA. When Bill wrote “Let’s get
friendly with our friends” it is worth noting that the “friends” are
physicians
and the clergy. In AA's early decades, men and woman of religion were
celebrated for their contributions to AA. “AA Comes of Age” is filled
with
tribute to them.

Prior to taking on the name “Oxford Group” the society was called “The
First
Century Christian Fellowship.” The Oxford Group (OG) is not fairly summed
up in
a few lines of “tenets” any more so than the use of the Ten Commandments
would
aptly describe the substance of Judaism.

The OG was an evangelical movement that, although neutral in its advocating
a
specific religious denomination, regarded its code or system of beliefs to
be
firmly rooted in Christian Scripture. Dr Bob, his wife Anne, Frank Buchman,
Rev
Sam Shoemaker, Rowland Hazard, Jim Newton, Shep Cornell, Henrietta
Seiberling,
Rev Walter Tunks, Norman Shepherd, Russell Firestone and T Henry & Clarace
Williams were most of the key names that carried the OG influence to the two
fledgling AA groups (in Akron and NY) that initially met under the auspices
of
the OG.

A July 1945 Grapevine article reported that in June 1945, Cleveland, OH
hosted a
2-day “Big Meeting” at the Cleveland Music Hall and Carter Hotel to
celebrate
AA’s 10th anniversary. Estimated attendance was 2,500. At the event Dr Bob
publicly commented, and is cited in the Grapevine, that over the last 10
years
he averaged at least an hour’s reading per day and “always returned to
the
simple teachings in The Sermon on the Mount, the Book of James and the 13th
chapter of First Corinthians in the Bible for his fundamentals.”

Cheers, Arthur

Sources: Dick B, "The Oxford Group and Alcoholics Anonymous"
(http://www.dickb.com/Oxford.shtml) and "Alcoholics Anonymous and Its Real
Oxford Group Connection" (http://www.aabibliography.com/article21.html).

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++++Message 2306. . . . . . . . . . . . I have talked with Nancy O.
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2005 8:45:00 PM

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Nancy O., the founder and moderator of the AAHistoryLovers, did in fact
break
her leg and her hip in the fall she took on Friday, March 11. Her heart is
too
weak for them to operate on her and set the broken bones properly. Her heart
stopped beating on Sunday, and they thought they had lost her, but then it
started beating again.

She has now been moved to a nursing home in Roanoke, Virginia, only five
blocks
away from her sister and her nephew and niece, who are watching over her.

I talked with Nancy briefly at 8 p.m. this evening (Friday, March 18). She
was
able to talk clearly, but she is in a lot of pain, and began crying at one
point
from the pain. No one can blame her for that.

I feel totally helpless in this situation myself. All we can do is pray for
her.

Either Lori W. in Fredericksburg, Virginia, or I will keep the members of
this
group posted on what is happening, as we get information.

G.C.

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++++Message 2307. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: The first 12 members to join
Alcoholics Anonymous
From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2005 8:57:00 PM

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This is the first twelve I have:
Bill Wilson
Dr. Bob Smith
Eddie Reilly
Dr. McK.
Bill Dotson
Ernie Galbraith
Hank Parkhurst
Phil Smith
Wes Wymans
Fitz Mayo
Freddie B. NY
Brooke B. NY
Some of these were failures.

Diz Titcher

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++++Message 2308. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA geographical membership rates
From: Roger Wheatley . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2005 2:34:00 AM

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Robin,
A member in the UK attempting to show the growth over here needs improvement
attempted to use some logic, census data, and determined that the US has
sobered
up 10% of those who need it and the UK only 1%. Here is how that is
determined
for sake of discussion, I do not believe it will hold up under scientific
scrutiny.

Membership of AA in UK approx. 22,000 according to GSO's 2002 survey.
Population in UK approx. 45 million according to census beaureau.
About 7% of population has drinking problem according to some agency.
Therefore, approximately 0.7% of those who need it are recovering in AA.

Membership in AA in USA approx 1 million.
USA is 5 times more populous than the UK.
Therefore they have 10x the membership per alcoholic (Assumpton alcoholism
is
found at the same rate in both countries).

Roger W.

gentle_bear <gentle_bear@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

Hi Folks,

My recent question re AA membership prompted me to wonder what the rates of
AA membership was in various countries around the world.

I was able to calculate the following.

These ratios are expressed as a percentage of the total population of a
country.

Australia - 0.150%
USA - 0.402%
Canada - 0.297%
New Zealand - 0.095%

Naturally the USA and Canada have high rates as AA started in North America.

The New Zealand membership census is on their website.

The Australian membership is an estimate - 30,000. Don't quote me - its
based on growth from a statistic about 10 years old.

Can anyone add to these figures?

The next question is - How can we explain these differences, if at all?

In Fellowship

Robin F.

Brisbane

Australia.

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++++Message 2309. . . . . . . . . . . . Quote is not Herbert Spencer but
William Paley
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2005 8:47:00 PM

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THE FAMOUS QUOTE ATTRIBUTED TO HERBERT SPENCER

It may really have come originally from William Paley (1743-1805)

-------------------------------------------

Jim Blair: Scholarship on Herbert Spencer

http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation03.htm#Anchor-Rumor-53375

-------------------------------------------

At about the same time "anonaholic" <anonaholic@yahoo.com> wrote in and
reported
discovering the same article on the internet:

http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/

-------------------------------------------

Glenn Chesnut: Jim has found new information on the quotation attributed to
Herbert Spencer,

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof
against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting
ignorance. This principle is contempt prior to examination."

Michael StGeorge argues that it was a modification of a quotation from
William
Paley (1743-1805), who wrote a book in 1794, entitled " A View of the
Evidences
of Christianity." In the original version, the lines read:

"The infidelity of the Gentile world, and that more especially of men of
rank
and learning in it, is resolved into a principle which, in my judgment, will
account for the inefficacy of any argument, or any evidence whatever, viz.
contempt prior to examination."

StGeorge's full article:
http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/index.htm
http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation02.htm
http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation03.htm

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++++Message 2310. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Percent of Potential Members
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2005 9:48:00 AM

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The question was to compare A.A. penetration around the world.
The rate of substance abuse is not the same in all countries.
To see what percentage of alcoholics are in A.A. in any given
country, you need to know the population and the rate of
alcohol dependence there. For the United States, a reasonable
estimate is that one in ten alcoholics are active A.A. members.

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/press/2004/NESARCNews.htm#chart



Here is a 1992 vs 2002 comparison for United States adults.
It uses the DSM IV ("APA Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
of Mental Disorders") definitions of Alcohol Abuse (drinking
caused trouble = problem drinkers) and Alcohol Dependent
(loss of control = real alcoholics). The distinction is
clearly defined. Note that there was a significant enough
reduction in the percentage of alcohol dependent adults that
the actual number went down in spite of population growth.

Alcohol Abuse (but not Dependent)
1992 3.0% 5.6 Million
2002 4.7% 9.7 Million
Alcohol Dependent
1992 4.4% 8.2 Million
2002 3.8% 7.9 Million
Total Abuse or Dependent
1992 7.4% 13.8 Million
2002 8.5% 17.6 Million

The 2002 A.A. membership in the U.S. was over one million.
If you assume A.A. is for "real alcoholics" then one in eight
are members. If you recognize that some "potential alcoholics"
or "problem drinkers" might join, then A.A. has one in seventeen.
Since most alcohol abusers aren't alcoholic enough to hit bottom
(yet) we could approximate that A.A. in the United States has
one in ten of all potential members.

GSO changed the way membership counts were calculated after 1993.
It would be misleading to attempt a historical comparison of
1992 vs. 2002 A.A. depth of reach without adjusting for that
change.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION SENT IN BY "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date:
Sun
Mar 20, 2005 0:34am

It’s very difficult to obtain reasonably accurate AA membership counts
over any
broad geographical area. Oddly, sometimes it’s just as difficult to get an
accurate membership count in a particular group.

For a table showing US and International group and membership counts from
1935
to 2002, please check Appendix 2 contained in the PDF file at the link
below.
The table in Appendix 2 is from various written materials (which are
identified). Data from 1951 on are from annual final Conference reports.

http://www.silkworth.net/timelines/AA_Timeline_2004-04-01_Public04.pdf

Group and membership count estimates must be interpreted very carefully,
very
skeptically and in proper context. Group counts include only those groups
asking
GSO to be listed (thousands do not). Groups may or may not report membership
estimates or update estimates over time. Members can be counted in multiple
group estimates and the composition of the numbers has changed at various
times
from “reported” to “estimated.”

AA is in about 150 countries (with 51 GSOs overseas). Each year, the
US/Canada
GSO attempts to contact overseas GSOs and groups requesting to be listed in
their records. Where current data are lacking, earlier year’s figures are
used.
An estimate of membership of non-reporting groups is arrived at by taking an
average of reporting groups.

From the beginning, the numbers are at best, “fuzzy” and do need to be
interpreted prudently to avoid drawing erroneous conclusions. The table data
are
not an accurate measure of a specific year’s increase or decrease.
However,
trends over the decades are indicative (but not exact) of AA groups reaching
more places and more AA members achieving recovery.

The last (2004) estimate of AA membership showed: the US with 1,187,000
members,
Canada with 94,000 members, US and Canadian correction facilities with
66,000
members and 716,453 members outside the US and Canada.
Various US demographic statistics can be found on the web site of the US
National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism at:

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/databases/qf.htm#abdep

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++++Message 2311. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Quote is not Herbert Spencer but
William Paley
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2005 11:38:00 PM

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Dear Friends,
I'm impressed by the sleuthing that enabled Jim Blair to trace this
alleged Spencer quote to William Paley. Paley is famous for "intelligent
design"---i.e., insisting that if you found a watch you must believe that
there is a watchmaker, so the "intelligent design" in the world suggests
that there must be an "intelligent designer" behind it all. This view is
under attack by people such as Richard Dawkins, who argue that no designer
is necessary to explain life.
My own proof of "intelligent design" is in the wonderful change I found
when I began to believe in, and consciously contacting, a Higher Power who
is living and working in our lives.
Mel Barger

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++++Message 2312. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pink Seven
From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2005 3:38:00 PM

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Cloud Nine, Pink Cloud, Seventh Heaven----Take your pick.

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++++Message 2313. . . . . . . . . . . . The people in the Big Book stories
From: daly_thomasj . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2005 7:16:00 PM

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The West Baltimore Group of Alcoholics Anonymous has a section on its
website
called Biographies of the Authors. This is one of the first places one ought
to
check to find out more about who the people were who appear in the stories
at
the end of the Big Book.

This website says that the short biographies of the various authors of the
stories in the back of the book Alcoholics Anonymous have been graciously
supplied by Nancy O., the moderator of the AA History Lovers list and her
friends.

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm

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++++Message 2314. . . . . . . . . . . . Death of former Trustee Don P.
(Aurora CO)
From: Martha Brummett . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2005 11:25:00 PM

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Don Pritts of Aurora, Colorado, a former alcoholic Trustee and one who
helped
carry the AA message to Russia in the late nineteen-eighties, died March 20.
He
touched many people's lives and will be greatly mourned.

Martha B.
Denver CO

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++++Message 2315. . . . . . . . . . . . Nancy''s gone home to God
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2005 3:51:00 AM

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I'm so sorry to have to deliver this news, but our founder and moderator
Nancy
Olson died at 3:22 p.m. on Friday afternoon, March 25th.

I was told that Nancy wanted to be cremated with no funeral service, so I am
not
sure what is happening at this point.

We have prepared a Memorial for her, with a brief account of her life and
all
the good things she did for alcoholics over the years, and some photographs
from
various points in her life. I think everyone in the group will want to look
at
it. We can't attach or include photos in the AAHistoryLovers messages, so we
have posted the memorial at this website:

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem3.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem4.html

Glenn Chesnut

Eternal rest grant unto her, O Lord,
and let perpetual light shine upon her.
May the angels receive her in paradise,
at her coming may the martyrs receive her,
and bring her into the holy city Jerusalem.
There may choirs of angels receive her,
and with Lazarus who once was poor,
may she have eternal rest. Amen.

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++++Message 2316. . . . . . . . . . . . Memorial Book for Nancy O.
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2005 6:22:00 PM

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MEMORIAL BOOK FOR NANCY O.

I know that a lot of people would like to express their appreciation for
Nancy
and what she did for us in the fellowship, and that there are people who
would
like to share some of their memories of her with the rest of us.

Doug B. at the AAHistory website ( http://www.aahistory.com/ ) has kindly
offered to let us use his site for a Memorial Book for Nancy. The Memorial
Book
is at

http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest17.html

and has a place to write your message and post it.

Doug already has some very beautiful Memorial Books for a number of warmly
remembered people, including Dr. Paul (acceptance is the answer), Esther
Coleman, Searcy W., and Sue Smith Windows.

And I suppose that since Nancy's last contributions to the fellowship were
through this AA History Lovers web group which literally spans the whole
globe
by electronic means, and touches every continent, a kind of "website
memorial
service" of this sort would be the only way that all of us in the
AAHistoryLovers could ever get together in one place.

Glenn C.

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++++Message 2317. . . . . . . . . . . . Don P. Memorial Service
From: Martha Brummett . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2005 12:39:00 PM

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> Don Pritts of Aurora, Colorado, a former alcoholic Trustee and one who
helped
carry the AA message to Russia in the late nineteen-eighties, died March 20.
He
touched many people's lives and will be greatly mourned.

The memorial service will be held Monday, April 11, at 2:00 p.m. at the Mile
High Church of Religious Science, 9077 W. Alameda Ave., Lakewood, Colorado.

Cards, etc., to:

Ms. Jackie Pritts, 1009 S. Lewiston Way, Aurora CO 80017.

Regards,
Martha B.
Denver CO

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++++Message 2318. . . . . . . . . . . . Choose conception
From: Don Kozak . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2005 1:03:00 PM

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Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own
conception of GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this
a
regular part of Oxford Group teaching?
TIA Don...TGCHAHO...

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++++Message 2319. . . . . . . . . . . . Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism Center
for Women founder
From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2005 8:34:00 PM

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Anyone have any other info regarding this person or her work?

Thanks, Jon Markle, Raleigh

-----Original Message-----

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-weathers30mar30,1,
640786.story

Brenda Weathers, 68; Founded Center for Alcoholics
By Elaine Woo
Times Staff Writer

March 30, 2005

Brenda Weathers, an activist, writer and founder of a pioneering alcoholism
and
drug recovery center for women in Los Angeles, died March 20 at her Long
Beach
home. She was 68. A lifelong smoker, Weathers died of lung cancer, said her
partner, Vicki Lewis.

Weathers founded the Alcoholism Center for Women in 1974 and served as its
first
director. The center, which operates out of two Victorian-style houses on
Alvarado Street west of downtown Los Angeles, was believed to be the first
such
facility in the country to primarily serve gay women.

A recovered alcoholic herself, Weathers understood that society treated
drunk
women more harshly than their male counterparts. Lesbian alcoholics, she
believed, had three strikes against them - female, gay and alcoholic - that
resulted in their drinking remaining hidden longer. Lesbians, like gay men,
are
believed to have higher rates of alcoholism than the general population, but
they were often shunned by traditional recovery programs, which were
dominated
by men and sometimes compounded the stigma that gay women felt by trying to
convert them to heterosexuality.

The Alcoholism Center for Women, which began as a program at what is now the
Gay
and Lesbian Community Services Center in Hollywood, encouraged women to
accept
themselves and fostered a feminist awareness.

In addition to offering traditional crisis intervention, counseling and
weekly
Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, it organized dances, potluck suppers and
other
recreational activities as alternatives to gay bars.

"Women were fighting to be heard, and it was difficult during those times,"
recalled Nora Steel, a longtime counselor at the center who worked with
Weathers. "Brenda forged ahead and said, 'We have issues and needs. We're
out
there drinking and dying and no one cares, and I want do something.' She
was courageous."

Born in Smithfield, Texas, the daughter of a Baptist preacher had been
expelled
from Texas Women's University in 1957 after college officials learned of her
sexual orientation. When the father of her girlfriend discovered their
relationship, he beat both girls with a rubber hose.

Weathers moved to California in the 1960s. She earned a bachelor's degree in
anthropology from Cal State Long Beach, then became a social worker for Los
Angeles County. She eventually turned to alcohol in an attempt to hold
together
her dual identities as a closeted lesbian and straight professional, but her
drinking got out of hand and she quit to avoid being fired.

She opened a second-hand store in Los Angeles called the Junk Lady, where
she
would cloister herself after hours and get drunk on jug wine.

"I'd wish and wish someone would call me, and no one did," she told The
Times in
a 1975 interview. "I would be filled with self-loathing. I'd hit myself on
the
head, throw myself against the wall, screaming, 'I want out of this.' "

She eventually became sober through a self-help program and began working at
the
Gay and Lesbian Center, where she helped write a proposal for a $300,000
federal
grant to start an alcoholism recovery program for women. The proposal was
funded
and evolved into the Alcoholism Center for Women, with a 13-bed recovery
house
and bustling outpatient program. It observed its 30th anniversary last year
at a
celebration honoring Weathers.

After leaving the center in 1977, Weathers moved to San Francisco, where she
ran
an alcohol and drug recovery center for the Whitman-Radclyffe Foundation. In
the
early 1980s, she directed the Gay and Lesbian Chemical Dependency Program in
Seattle, where she met Lewis, who became her longtime partner.

Weathers is also survived by a sister, Carolyn Weathers of Long Beach.

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++++Message 2320. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Choose conception
From: Colston . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2005 8:21:00 AM

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"It is so with the decision about Christ. We surrender as much of
ourselves as we can to as much of Christ as we understand." p71 How
to Become A Christian - Samuel M. Shoemaker... 1953, Harper & Row.

On Mar 30, 2005 7:03 PM, Don Kozak <d_kozak@hotmail.com> wrote:
Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own conception of
GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this a regular
part
of Oxford Group teaching?

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++++Message 2321. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism
Center for Women founder
From: Jduplain@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2005 4:07:00 AM

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Hi Jon:

I was very sad to hear of the loss of my friend Brenda Weathers. When I was
Director, Office of Women, National Council on Alcoholism, (1975-78) Brenda
was
my contact for the gay community.

Jan Du Plain
Du Plain Enterprises, Inc.
4201 Cathedral Avenue, NW Suite 1011W
Washington, DC 20016
Tel: 202-244-3338 Fax: 202-244-4539 Toll: 1-866-DUPLAIN
jan@duplain.com
www.duplain.com

-----Original Message-----
Anyone have any other info regarding this person or her work?
Thanks, Jon Markle, Raleigh

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-weathers30mar30,1,
640786.story

Brenda Weathers, 68; Founded Center for Alcoholics
By Elaine Woo, Times Staff Writer
March 30, 2005

Brenda Weathers, an activist, writer and founder of a pioneering
alcoholism and drug recovery center for women in Los Angeles, died March 20
at
her Long Beach home. She was 68. A lifelong smoker, Weathers died of lung
cancer, said her partner, Vicki Lewis.

Weathers founded the Alcoholism Center for Women in 1974 and served as its
first
director. The center, which operates out of two Victorian-style houses on
Alvarado Street west of downtown Los Angeles, was believed to be the first
such
facility in the country to primarily serve gay women.

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++++Message 2322. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Choose conception
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2005 9:56:00 AM

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The Oxford Group expression that I have heard about was, "Bring as much of
yourself as you understand to as much of God as you understand." I believe
that
probably out of frustration (you can tell in the Big Book that Ebby went
back &
forth for a while with Bill W. about the God thing), Ebby finally said to
Bill,
"Listen, you don't need to believe what I believe, you can choose your own
conception of this Power."

Just Love, Barefoot Bill

We received similar messages from "John" <burcjo@yahoo.com> who linked it to
the
Rev. Sam Shoemaker.

Also from Karen <honey_dot_com@yahoo.com> who referred to the frustration
that
Ebby must have been feeling by that point as an important part of the
context of
the statement.

-----Original Message----- From: Don Kozak d_kozak@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, March 30, 2005 1:03 PM

Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own conception of
GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this a regular
part
of Oxford Group teaching

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++++Message 2323. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Choose conception
From: TBaerMojo@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2005 4:54:00 AM

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On the source of the idea that we should choose our own conception of God:

Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship
http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html

There may be a clue here from the Emmanuel Movement in Boston and its
influence on Rowland H.

Tim B

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++++Message 2324. . . . . . . . . . . . Wombley''s clapboard factory
From: Mark Morse . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/31/2005 12:41:00 PM

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I would appreciate any information anyone may have about the origin and
reference of the phrase: "Then came the inevitable explosion---something
like
that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory." from the 12 and
12.

I have pasted below the only responses I have been able to get on this
question. The Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library (RLL) in Madison
wasn't able to find the information.

Thanks!

Mark M.
Eau Claire, WI

******************
>>> "Otteson, M. Jeanne DPI-RLL" <m.jeanne.otteson@dpi.state.wi.us>
03/31/05 10:01 AM >>>
REPLY from RLL:

RE: A.A. Tradition Four - Wombley's Explosion

I also found the same information that you did in the AA Discussion
Groups. I have not been able to find any other substantial facts. I emailed
the
Dorset Historical Society (Dorset, VT) requesting
information, but never received a response.

Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was born in East
Dorset, Vermont - so the Vermont connection seems credible.
RLL/jo

M. Jeanne Otteson, Reference Librarian
Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library
Madison, WI 53716

Really found nothing except for some AA history chat:

Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an Edgar
Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vt. before the turn of the century.
The
Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as that of the
Ward
family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through Chittenden county.
(Sarasot, Sarasota, FL)

And a reference in the AA History Lovers:

From: Jim Blair <jblair@v...> Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:40 pm
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] re: clapboard factory explosion

David wrote: "Does anyone know if the Wombleys clapboard factory
explosion (referenced in Tradition 4 in the 12 & 12) was an actual event, or
just a figure of speech?"

I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East
Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can still
be
seen.

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++++Message 2325. . . . . . . . . . . . Boston AA Circa 1949
From: Audrey Borden . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2005 4:37:00 PM

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Greetings AA History Lovers,

I'm hoping someone here might help me decipher some references to AA in
Boston, made by an AA speaker on a tape I have.

The speaker is describing some of his experiences in Boston AA in 1949. He
mentions talking with some other AA members at a placy on Myrtle Street
behind the State House. I am trying to figure out what this place was and
what connection it might have had to AA in Boston at that time. An Internet
search this morning turned up an AA meeting that meets at 19 Myrtle Street
today, in a place called Beacon Chambers, but Beacon Chambers doesn't
suggest anything to me.

The man in the tape describes this place as a "father, son, holy ghost
house," words that suggest a church to me, but current Boston maps show no
churches at (or near) that address. Might it have been a church then, or a
church-sponsored half way house, or other place alcoholics in need of help
might have lived or gathered? Does anyone here have any ideas?

And finally, the speaker also mentions that he'd heard Bill Wilson speak "in
a brown bagger lunch. The office workers used to run in, chomp on their
sandwiches and listed intently to what sobriety was all about."

Is he refering to an AA group called the "Brown Baggers?" What office
workers might he mean, people who worked in this place on Myrtle Street?
Government workers at the State House? I have no clue!

As I know very little about Boston geography or AA development in Boston any
help you could give me would be much appreciated.

Thank you,

Audrey Borden
Sober in San Francisco

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++++Message 2326. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Boston AA Circa 1949
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2005 11:54:00 PM

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A "father, son, and holy ghost" house isn't a church--rather, a tiny
3-floor row house consisting of one room on each floor....

On Monday, April 4, 2005, at 05:37 PM, Audrey Borden wrote:

The man in the tape describes this place as a "father, son, holy ghost
house,"
words that suggest a church to me, but current Boston maps show no churches
at
(or near) that address. Might it have been a church then, or a
church-sponsored
half way house, or other place alcoholics in need of help might have lived
or
gathered? Does anyone here have any ideas?

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++++Message 2327. . . . . . . . . . . . who was the man that almost was
A.A.#3?
From: oicuradry12 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/9/2005 11:23:00 PM

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To all grateful historians abroad:
My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the first
person
Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but some other person
who
was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name was lost to A.A. history?
If
anyone has the answer I would be forever grateful!

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++++Message 2328. . . . . . . . . . . . The two patients in the Doctors
Opinion
From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2005 3:10:00 PM

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Dr Silkworth refers to two patients on page xxxi in the fourth
edition big book.

Can somebody verify who these patients are ?

1. "one year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very
strange sensation. I knew the man by name" ?

2. "When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case
brought in by a physician prominent in New York. The patient had
made his own diagnosis, and deciding his situation hopeless, had
hidden in a deserted barn" ?

Many Thanks
Carl P.
Enfield.UK.

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++++Message 2329. . . . . . . . . . . . The Factory Owner & the Convict
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2005 5:00:00 AM

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Notice of new book on A.A. history:

Glenn C., The Factory Owner & the Convict, Vol. 1 of Lives and Teachings of
the
A.A. Old Timers, April 2005, ISBN 0-595-34872-6, xii + 325 pp. Published by
the
Hindsfoot Foundation and iUniverse.

The beginnings of the A.A. center which developed in the St. Joseph river
valley
and spread its influence outward through many parts of Indiana and Michigan
during the 1940's. Includes material on an important early A.A. prison group
and
on early black A.A. groups along the Chicago-Gary-South Bend axis which runs
along the southern coast of Lake Michigan.

For more information see:

http://hindsfoot.org/

http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2330. . . . . . . . . . . . AA movies
From: Aloke Dutt . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2005 12:30:00 AM

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I am collecting commercial films like

>The Lost Weekend,
>When A man Loves a Woman &
>The Days Of Wine & Roses.
where alcoholism & recovery in AA are so wonderfully depicted.

Are there any other such movies also ?

Thanks for your help.
Aloke
in India

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2331. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Wombley''s clapboard factory
From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2005 9:33:00 PM

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Dear all: The following is unsubstantiated hearsay history...

I recall seeing a modern art painting and a commentary about it comparing it
to the Explosion of Wombley's

Clapboard (or Roof Shingle) Factory. The multi-colored shingles were
exploding outward in total chaos in the

painting. So maybe my handicapped memory will provoke some real research
in the explosion of the factory.

servus, Charlie Bishop, Jr.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Morse" <markm@eauclaire.lib.wi.us>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:41 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Wombley's clapboard factory

>
>
> I would appreciate any information anyone may have about the origin and
reference of the phrase: "Then came the inevitable explosion---something
like that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory." from the 12
and 12.
>
> I have pasted below the only responses I have been able to get on this
> question. The Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library (RLL) in Madison
> wasn't able to find the information.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark M.
> Eau Claire, WI
>
> ******************
> >>> "Otteson, M. Jeanne DPI-RLL" <m.jeanne.otteson@dpi.state.wi.us>
> 03/31/05 10:01 AM >>>
> REPLY from RLL:
>
> RE: A.A. Tradition Four - Wombley's Explosion
>
> I also found the same information that you did in the AA Discussion
> Groups. I have not been able to find any other substantial facts. I
emailed the Dorset Historical Society (Dorset, VT) requesting
> information, but never received a response.
>
> Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was born in East
> Dorset, Vermont - so the Vermont connection seems credible.
> RLL/jo
>
> M. Jeanne Otteson, Reference Librarian
> Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library
> Madison, WI 53716
>
> Really found nothing except for some AA history chat:
>
> Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an
Edgar Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vt. before the turn of the
century. The Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as
that of the Ward family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through
Chittenden county. (Sarasot, Sarasota, FL)
>
> And a reference in the AA History Lovers:
>
> From: Jim Blair <jblair@v...> Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:40 pm
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] re: clapboard factory explosion
>
> David wrote: "Does anyone know if the Wombleys clapboard factory
> explosion (referenced in Tradition 4 in the 12 & 12) was an actual event,
or just a figure of speech?"
>
> I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East
> Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can
still be seen.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2332. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The two patients in the Doctors
Opinion
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2005 8:33:00 AM

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FROM JIM BLAIR:

Can somebody verify who these patients are ?

1. "one year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very strange
sensation. I knew the man by name" ?

Hank Parkhurst

2. "When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case brought in
by a physician prominent in New York.

Fitz Mayo

--------------------------------------------

FROM CHARLES KNAPP: <cdknapp@pacbell.net>

#1 - Hank Parkhurst His Story "The Unbeliever" in First Edition. Hank was a
high-pressure kind of guy. Was called a "promoter among promoters." Worked
for
Standard Oil of New Jersey.

#2 - Fitz Mayo author of "Our Southern Friend".

--------------------------------------------
SAME INFO ALSO FROM:

"Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net>
"Tommy" <skyrocket1954@yahoo.com>
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++++Message 2333. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth''s two patients
From: Dick Spaedt . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2005 8:38:00 AM

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Dr Silkworth refers to two patients on page xxxi in the fourth edition big
book.

Patient #1 was Henry (Hank) Parkhurst, Bill's partner in writing the Big
Book.
He wrote the chapter "To Employers". His story "The Unbeliever" was in the
first edition of the Big Book.

Patient #2 was John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo, whose story is "Our Southern
Friend" page 208 in 4th Edition. He is also the minister's son referred to
on
pages 56 & 57 of the text.

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++++Message 2334. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: who was the man that almost was
A.A.#3?
From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2005 5:37:00 AM

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The first person that Bill and Bob tried to help was Eddie Reilly(sp), whose
wife was a professor at Kent State Univ. They moved in the middle of the
night
and Eddie showed up with two years of sobriety at Dr. Bob's funeral.

Diz T.
Tallahassee

--------------------------------------
From: "dikilee" <dikilee@yahoo.com>

The first person Bill and Bob worked with was Edgar "Eddie" R. He didn't get
sober then, but showed up at Dr. Bob's funeral in 1950 and had been sober
for a
short time.

Dick Spaedt

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++++Message 2335. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: who was the man that almost was
A.A.#3?
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2005 6:30:00 PM

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There is a letter at the Stepping Stones Archives written by Bill to
Lois on Dr. Bob's letterhead from May 1935 while Bill was staying at
Dr. Bob's home. Bill states that they met with a Dr. McKay who was
a "rake." Given the early date of that letter I would place this person
as the first one they met with. There was no reference to any earlier
people in that letter.

> To all grateful historians abroad:
> My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the
first person Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but
some other person who was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name
was lost to A.A. history? If anyone has the answer I would be forever
grateful!

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++++Message 2336. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Who was the man that almost was
A.A.#3?
From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2005 1:00:00 AM

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Actually there was a Dr. McKay they tried working with first, according to a
letter dated May 1935. This was prior to Dr Bob's last drink. Don't know
what
ever happen to him. But yes the name of AA # 3 for a short time was Eddie
Riley
and in Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers you can find more about him on pages
77-78;
80-81; 85,93,97,99 and in Pass It On pages 151,152,159

Charles from California
____________________________________

From: "oicuradry12" <oicuradry12@yahoo.com>
Subject: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?

My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the first
person
Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but some other person
who
was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name was lost to A.A. history?

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++++Message 2337. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: who was the man that almost was
A.A.#3?
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2005 7:58:00 PM

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Two alcoholics in Akron, OH unsuccessfully preceded Bill Dotson for
the opportunity to be AA #3: the first was a Dr McKay, the second was
Eddie Reilly.

SOURCE REFERENCES:

AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS

AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS

AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft
cover)

BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography (hard cover)

BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)

BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)

CH - Children of the Healer, Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by
Christine Brewer (soft cover)

DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers, AAWS

EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)

GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft
cover)

GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)

LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson

NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz (expanded edition, soft cover)

NW - New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)

PIO - Pass It On, AAWS

SI - Sister Ignatia, by Mary C Darrah (soft cover)

1935

May 11, (AGAA says May 10) Bill W, in poor spirits, and tempted to
enter the Mayflower Hotel bar, realized he needed another alcoholic.
He telephoned members of the clergy listed on the lobby directory. He
reached the Rev Walter Tunks who referred him to Norman Sheppard who
then referred him to Henrietta Sieberling (47 years old and an Oxford
Group adherent). Bill introduced himself as “a member of the OG and a
rum hound from NY.” Henrietta met with Bill at her gatehouse (Stan
Hywet Hall) on the Sieberling estate. She arranged a dinner meeting
the next day with Dr Bob and Anne. (AACOA 65-67, SI 21, BW-RT 212-213,
DBGO 60, 63-67, NG 26-28, PIO 134-138, GB 19) Note: some stories
(AACOA 67) say that when Henrietta called Anne, Dr Bob was passed out
under the kitchen table. He was upstairs in bed (re Big Book story Dr.
Bob’s Nightmare pg 179 4th ed).

May 12, Mother’s Day (AGAA says Mother’s Day was May 11) Bill W (age
39) met Dr Bob (age 55) Anne and their young son Bob (age 17) at
Henrietta Sieberling’s gatehouse at 5PM. Dr Bob, too hung over to eat
dinner, planned to stay only 15 minutes. Privately, in the library,
Bill told Bob of his alcoholism experience in the manner suggested by
Dr Silkworth. Bob opened up and he and Bill talked until after 11PM.
(AACOA vii, 67-70, BW-RT 214-215, DBGO 66-69, NG 28-32, BW-FH 4, GB
21)

May, Bill W wrote a letter to Lois saying that he and Dr Bob tried in
vain to sober up a Dr McKay, a “once prominent surgeon” who developed
into a “terrific rake and drunk” (BW-40 Appendix C). Henrietta
Sieberling arranged for Bill to stay at the Portage Country Club.
(DBGO 70, 77)

Jun, Bill W moved to Dr Bob’s house at the request of Anne Smith. Bill
insisted on keeping two bottles of liquor in the kitchen to prove that
he and Bob could live in the presence of liquor. Both worked with
alcoholics and went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at
the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to
the proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73,
DBGO 70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture
readings at meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians
Chapter 13 and the Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96
says that meetings were held at Dr Bob’s house and moved to the
Williams’ house in late 1936 or early 1937)

Jun 10 (more likely Jun 17) after a multi-day binge on the way to, and
at, an AMA convention in Atlantic City, NJ, a drunken Dr Bob was
picked up at his office nurse’s house in Cuyahoga Falls. Bob went
through a 3-day sobering up period with Bill W’s help. Scheduled for a
surgery at City Hospital, Bob pronounced, “I am going through with
this - I have placed both operation and myself in God’s hands. I’m
going to do what it takes to get sober and stay that way.” Bill gave
Bob his last drink (a beer) and a “goofball” (a barbiturate) to steady
him prior to the surgery. (AACOA vii, 70-71, SI 22, DBGO 72-75, NG 32,
PIO 147-149, AA video Bill’s Own Story)

Jun 11 (more likely Jun 18), Dr Bob suggested that he and Bill W work
with other alcoholics. A local Minister, J C Wright, provided them
with a prospect. They tried in vain, throughout the summer, to sober
up Edgar (Eddie) Reilly (described as an “alcoholic atheist” and “able
to produce a major crisis of some sort about every other day”). Eddie
missed the chance to be AA #3 but he showed up at Dr Bob’s funeral in
1950. He was sober a year and attending the Youngstown, OH group.
(AACOA 72-73, DBGO 77-81, 85, NG 37, 319, PIO 151-152, AAGA 184, CH
5-6)

Jun 28, Bill W, Dr Bob and Eddie R visited Bill Dotson (Big Book story
Alcoholic Anonymous Number Three) at City Hospital. A prominent
attorney in Akron, Bill D had been hospitalized 8 times in 1935
because of his drinking. Bill W and Bob visited Bill D every day. It
took about 5 days before Bill D would say that he could not control
his drinking. He checked out of the hospital on Jul 4 and within a
week, was back in court sober and arguing a case. (AACOA 71-73, AABB
184, BW-RT 219-220, DBGO 81-89, NG 37, 319, PIO 152-154, GB 42, AGAA
202-203) (Note: Bill D was Ohio’s Delegate for Panel 1, the first
General Service Conference in 1951).

Jul (?), Lois went to Akron to join Bill W at the Smith’s house for
two weeks (LR 197, NG 41, BW-FH 85).

Jul, encouraged by T Henry Williams, Ernie Galbraith (AA #4, Big Book
story The Seven Month Slip) contacted Dr Bob and sobered up. He later
married Dr Bob’s adopted daughter Sue in Sep 1941. Ernie could not
stay sober and their marriage was a disaster. Tragically, on Jun 11,
1969, their daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking the life of
her 6-year-old daughter Sandy. Ernie G died two years later to the
day. (AACOA 7, 73, DBGO 92-95, AAGA 68, CH 72-74, PIO 154-155)

Aug 26, Bill W returned to NYC. Meetings were held at his house at 182
Clinton St on Tues. nights. His home also became a halfway house, of
sorts, for drunks. (AACOA 74, BW-RT 225, PIO 160-162, GTBT 96, GB 51,
AGAA 145)

Nov 19, Ebby T came to live with Bill W and Lois at Clinton St. (LR
197, EBBY 72, NG 42-44)

Winter, Henry (Hank) Parkhurst (Big Book story The Unbeliever) and
John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo (Big Book story Our Southern Friend)
sobered up at Towns Hospital. Hank and Fitz provided a big help to
Bill W. Hank started AA in NJ at his house and Fitz started AA in
Washington, DC (AACOA 16-17, 74, LR 101, BW-RT 225-226, NG 43-44) (PIO
191 says 1937)

Cheers

Arthur S

_____

From: oicuradry12 [mailto:oicuradry12@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 11:23 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?

To all grateful historians abroad:
My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the
first person Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed"
but some other person who was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose
name was lost to A.A. history? If anyone has the answer I would be
forever grateful!

_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscrib
e>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2338. . . . . . . . . . . . List of movies on A.A. and
alcoholism
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2005 1:09:00 AM

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There were so many messages sent in on this topic, that I thought it was
best to
gather them together into a single posting. When a number of people all sent
in
the same movie, I did not always list everyone. -- Glenn C.

------------------------------

Aloke in India started us off with three movies:

"THE LOST WEEKEND"

"WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN"

"DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES"

------------------------------

A GOOD LIST OF MOVIES WITH EXCELLENT COMMENTARIES adds some other movies to
the
list given below:

From: philip luppy lupp713@yahoo.com Here is a link to a bibliographic essay
on
motion pictures and AA:

http://www.bks.no/partyend.pdf

------------------------------

"MY NAME IS BILL W."

From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com

A must have in any AA film collection is "My Name is Bill W." starring James
Woods and James Garner. The story of Bill and the early days in AA. Much
Love
Disco Dave

From: billyk billyk3@yahoo.com

My Name is Bill W., a Hallmark film, starring James Woods as Bill and Jo
Beth
Williams as his wife. It is the story of Bill's life. It is, in my opinion,
the
best AA movie made (and I've seen them all).

From: "Diz Titcher" rtitcher@comcast.net How about A Man called Bill. Diz T.

"DRUNKS"

From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com

There is also a terrible film from 1997 called "Drunks" which is an example
of
how AA has become group therapy in many places. Don't see it.

From: Ron Sessions pqrgs@yahoo.com

I don't know about wonderfully depicted, but there is a film that I think
does a
VERY good job of depicting what AA has become - the movie is called 'Drunks'
from mid-1990's staring Richard Lewis, Faye Dunaway and others. It shows the
result of the self-help, pick any higher power you want AA that is so common
today in a very revealing light.

"CLEAN AND SOBER"

From: Lynda lynda_rivers@yahoo.com

Another great movie that you might want to add to your collection is Clean
and
Sober, starring Michael Keaton. It was released in 1988 and it's excellent.
Have
a great day! Lynda

From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com "Clean and Sober" is also a
classic with Michael Keaton.

From: george cleveland pauguspass@yahoo.com Clean and Sober

"MY NAME IS KATE"

From: billyk billyk3@yahoo.com "My Name is Kate"

"28 DAYS"

From: rich northouse rnorthouse@wi.rr.com 28 Days is a good one.

From: "Rob White" rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu

I like Sandra Bullock's movie, "28 days." It's a great story about a woman
that
goes to rehab.

From: MarionORedstone@aol.com

28 days with Sandra Bullock. Marion O. Redstone, Atty., Indianapolis,
Indiana

From: george cleveland pauguspass@yahoo.com 28 Days--not a milestone.

"I'LL CRY TOMORROW"

From: Pam Lanning prlanning@gmail.com

I'll Cry Tomorrow. It's a true story. I just read the book.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048191/plotsummary

Deprived of a normal childhood by her ambitious mother, Katie (Jo Van
Fleet),
Lillian Roth (Susan Hayward) becomes a star of Broadway and Hollywood before
she
is twenty. Shortly before her marriage to her childhood sweetheart, David
Tredman (Ray Danton), he dies and Lillian takes her first drink of many down
the
road of becoming an alcoholic. She enters into a short-lived marriage to an
immature aviation cadet, Wallie (Don Taylor), followed by a divorce and then
marriage to a sadistic brute and abuser Tony Bardeman (Richard Conte). After
a
failed suicide attempt, Burt McGuire (Eddie Albert)comes to her aid and
helps
her find the road back to happiness after sixteen years in a nightmare
world,
not counting the first twenty with her mother.

"SHAKES THE CLOWN"

From: "Richard Johnson" hotshots@elltel.net

One done in 70's and a great comedy about an alcoholic clown, "Shakes the
Clown."

"SHATTERED SPIRITS"

From: "Richard Johnson" hotshots@elltel.net

Martin Sheen, Shattered Spirits, 1989. Great Movie!!

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net Shattered Spirits- Charlie Sheen

"ON THE NICKLE"

From: "Robert Stonebraker" rstonebraker212@insightbb.com

"On The Nickle" is a thoroughly forgotten film about skid row hi-jinx in Los
Angeles. It is directed by Ralph Waite who also plays a part in this 1980
movie.
It is a film which I was lucky enough to tape from the "Z Channel" (now
defunct)
in Los Angeles many years ago. The brainchild of actor Ralph Waite (of
Waltons),
it was independently made on a very low budget. In it, Waite manages to
balance
the tragedy of skid-row life with humor and irony, and in spite of an easy,
fellini-esque ending, tells a moving story of a man (Donald Moffat) a former
alcoholic and skid row dweller, struggling to "put his demons to rest" as he
searches the "Nickle" (Fifth Street) for his old pal, C.G., played by Ralph
Waite. The movie is bookended by the Tom Waits song, "On The Nickle",
presumably
written for the movie, and has a score that quotes the song frequently.
Maybe
the Independent Film Channel will consider running it.

Bob S., from Indiana

"VITAL SIGNS"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Vital Signs - Ed Asner

"LEAVING LAS VEGAS"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Leaving Las Vegas

"UNDER THE INFLUENCE"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Under The Influence -Keanau Reeves, Andy Griffith

"STUART SAVES HIS FAMILY"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Stuart Saves His Family

"THE GREAT SANTINI"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

The Great Santini

"ON THIN ICE"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

On Thin Ice

"LADY SINGS THE BLUES"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Lady Sings the Blues

"SMASH UP"

From: "Sally Brown" rev.sally@worldnet.att.net

Try Smash Up, with Susan Hayward, Aloke, which came out about the same time
as
Lost Weekend.

"LIFE OF THE PARTY"

From: Julie zulie55@yahoo.com

There is a movie coming on encore, April 23, "Life of the Party: The Story
of
Beatrice," 1982. It has Carol Burnett in it.

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++++Message 2339. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby Thacher
From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2005 9:38:00 PM

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Hi all,

I would like to thank all the people that replied to my last
couple of questions.

I have another question that I need help with. When Ebby rang Bill W., page
8,
and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's intention to make amends to
Bill?

Many Thanks
Carl P.
Enfield UK

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++++Message 2340. . . . . . . . . . . . celebrated American statesman
From: Jarvis . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2005 8:14:00 AM

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Hello
On page 50 of the B.B. the authors refer to "a celebrated American
statesman" as
having said "Let's look at the record". Who are they refering to, who is the
statesman?
Thanks
Jarvis

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++++Message 2341. . . . . . . . . . . . Toronto 2005 AA Int''l. Conv.
Available Hotel Rooms
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2005 9:02:00 AM

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Shortcut to: http://2005internationaltorontoaccommodations.com/

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++++Message 2342. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: celebrated American statesman
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2005 9:37:00 AM

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Jarvis asked
On page 50 of the B.B. the authors refer to "a celebrated American
statesman" as
having said "Let's look at the record". Who are they referring to, who is
the
statesman?

Alfred E. Smith. Four time Governor of New York and unsuccessful first Roman
Catholic presidential candidate.
Jim
____________________
MODERATOR: WE WERE ALSO GIVEN A GOOD REFERENCE BY RICK B. FOR THOSE WHO WANT
TO
KNOW MORE.

Rickydotcom <rickydotcom@yahoo.com>
According to the Anonymous Press Study Edition of the Big Book it is Alfred
E.
Smith, former governor of New York. See this website for a bio on Smith
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1495.html
Be well, Rick Benchoff, Hagerstown, Maryland
____________________
MODERATOR: AND OTHERS AMONG OUR INTREPID HISTORICAL RESEARCHERS ALSO CAME UP
WITH THE NAME ALFRED E. SMITH
Sbickell@aol.com
lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>
J N P <jopet34@yahoo.com>
"Charles Knapp" <cdknapp@pacbell.net>
"Roy V. Tellis" Baldwin, NY <roytellis@yahoo.com>
Thumper (Paula) <dsgrl121501@yahoo.com>

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++++Message 2343. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ebby Thacher
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2005 8:12:00 AM

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Hi Carl,
I doubt that Ebby had any amends to make to Bill, as he hadn't harmed him
in any way. They did take that drunken airplane ride in 1929 but Bill was
as much involved in it as Ebby and no lasting harm resulted from it. The
pilot might have been drunk too and it was a dangerous action, but they got
through it.
As I understand it, Ebby was living in the Calvary Mission and just
happened to drop in on some friends in a Wall Street brokerage office. (Ebby
had worked briefly as a broker in Albany.) The friend (or friends) told him
that Bill was in terrible shape in Brooklyn. Ebby then decided to help
Bill, if he could. So Ebby called Lois and this led to his call to Bill.
As you can read in "Pass It On," Bill even visited the mission where Ebby
was staying and made a fool of himself. Bill finally decided to go back to
Towns Hospital, where he had the transforming experience mentioned in his
personal story.
Mel Barger

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl P." <cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk>
I have another question that I need help with. When Ebby rang Bill W., page
8,
and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's intention to make amends to
Bill?
Many Thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK

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++++Message 2344. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ebby Thacher
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2005 9:46:00 AM

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Hi Carl

Based on Mel B's book ("Ebby The Man Who Sponsored Bill W" pg 66) Ebby's own
recollection of events was that he wound up first contacting Lois Wilson who
invited him over for dinner. In late November 1934, Ebby visited Bill W at
182
Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one alcoholic talking to
another." A few days later, Ebby returned with Shep C (see "Pass It On" pg
116 -
several other books document this as well). Ebby and Shep spoke to Bill
about
the Oxford Group (Bill did not think too highly of Shep).

Lois recalled in an interview that Ebby visited several times, once even
staying
for dinner (see "Not God" pg 311). Mel B also notes that while this may not
reconcile with Bill's description of events it occurred at time when Bill
was at
the worst of his drinking. Ebby's recollection of events would probably be
far
more accurate since he was not drinking at the time.

Relatively speaking, I don't get the sense that Ebby and Bill did all that
much
drinking and socializing together except when Bill visited Albany, NY. Ebby
lived in Albany, NY (with some time also spent in Vermont) while Bill lived
in
NY City (there is one very notable story, however, involving an airplane
ride
from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT). Even though Ebby and Bill spent one year
of
high school together it appears that Ebby's family was more closely aligned
Lois' family (and Lois' brother Rogers) through their mutual vacationing
each
summer in Vermont (see "Lois Remembers" pg 7).

My sense of events was that Ebby, who was then residing at the Calvary
Mission,
was simply being a good Oxford Group member and trying to help others in the
same manner he was helped by fellow OG alcoholics Rowland H, Shep C and
Cebra G.

Cheers

Arthur

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl P.<mailto:cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk>
When Ebby rang Bill W., page 8, and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's
intention to make amends to Bill?
Many Thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK

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++++Message 2345. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ebby Thacher
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2005 8:06:00 AM

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Hi Friends,
I agree with Art's review here re Ebby's contacts with Bill, etc. Bill was,
however, a friend of Shep's but Shep didn't think he had had much of a
drinking
problem and wasn't qualified to serve as an example of recovery! Shep later
drank again, but only as the moderate drinker he had been right along. He
had
been abstaining because that was required by the Oxford Group. Shep still
had
some money and could take Ebby, Lois, and Bill to dinner. He became a
lieutenant colonel during WWII and then was general manager of A.O. Smith
Company in Milwaukee. He was retired and living in Earlysville, VA, when I
talked with him by phone. Lois also knew Shep well and mentioned that he was
a
great golfer. Undoubtedly he and Bill had
played together at the Ekwanok club in 1929 when Bill acquired golf fever.
Mel Barger

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 10:46 AM

Hi Carl

Based on Mel B's book ("Ebby The Man Who Sponsored Bill W" pg 66) Ebby's own
recollection of events was that he wound up first contacting Lois Wilson who
invited him over for dinner. In late November 1934, Ebby visited Bill W at
182
Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one alcoholic talking to
another." A few days later, Ebby returned with Shep C see "Pass It On" pg
116 -
several other books document this as well).

Ebby and Shep spoke to Bill about the Oxford Group (Bill did not think too
highly of Shep). Lois recalled in an interview that Ebby visited several
times,
once even staying for dinner (see "Not God" pg 311). Mel B also notes that
while
this may not reconcile with Bill's description of events it occurred at time
when Bill was at the worst of his drinking. Ebby's recollection of events
would
probably be far more accurate since he was not drinking at the time.

Relatively speaking, I don't get the sense that Ebby and Bill did all that
much
drinking and socializing together except when Bill visited Albany, NY. Ebby
lived in Albany, NY (with some time also spent in Vermont) while Bill lived
in
NY City (there is one very notable story, however, involving an airplane
ride
from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT). Even though Ebby and Bill spent one year
of
high school together it appears that Ebby's family was more closely aligned
Lois' family (and Lois' brother Rogers) through their mutual vacationing
each
summer in Vermont (see "Lois Remembers" pg 7).

My sense of events was that Ebby, who was then residing at the Calvary
Mission,
was simply being a good Oxford Group member and trying to help others in the
same manner he was helped by fellow OG alcoholics Rowland H, Shep C and
Cebra G.

Cheers, Arthur

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++++Message 2346. . . . . . . . . . . . The dozens of Oxford Group tenets
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2005 3:08:00 PM

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QUESTION ASKED BY: "Carl P." <cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk> Wed Apr 20, 2005

SUBJECT: Oxford Group Tenets

Please can somebody confirm, did the Oxford Group have five or six tenets ?

Many thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK

------------------------------------------------------

Carl,

The short answer is, neither five nor six, but many dozens of tenets.

It would be useful to look at some of our previous messages on this one to
get
some of the details on this. See particularly messages 2274 (Robert
Stonebraker
at rstonebraker212@insightbb.com ), 2286 (Arthur Sheehan at
ArtSheehan@msn.com
), 2288 (Ernest Kurtz at kurtzern@umich.edu ), and 2295 ( Tom Hickcox at
cometkazie1@cox.net ). There is some really good AA history in these
postings.

Let me try to give you a summary though. In the Foreword to the Second
Edition
of the Big Book (page xvi in the third and fourth editions) we find the
following sentence, which Bill W. wrote in 1955, where he was trying to
describe
what he came to believe back in 1934, some twenty-one years earlier.

"Though he [Bill Wilson] could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford
Groups,
he was convinced of the need for [1] moral inventory, [2] confession of
personality defects, [3] restitution to those harmed, [4] helpfulness to
others,
and [5] the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."

Let us remember the full historical context here, when we are talking about
the
end of 1934 and what Bill Wilson believed at that time.

In November 1934, Ebby and Bill had their talk in Bill's kitchen, and Bill
says
that the "scales ... fell from my eyes" (see page 12 in the Big Book). The
reference here was to the Apostle Paul's conversion experience on the road
to
Damascus, as described in the book of Acts in the New Testament (see Acts
9:18),
and this particular phrase would have been instantly recognized by any
Bible-reading Christian of that time as a reference to a person's
fundamental
conversion experience. The saving message which produced this, which was
Bill
W.'s first conversion experience (see page 12 of the Big Book), was "Why
don't
you choose your own conception of God?" It put him back into contact with
his
awareness of God-presence at Winchester Cathedral (Big Book pages 1 and 12).

So Bill's first conversion experience was therefore a re-establishment of
his
awareness of the Holy (see Rudolf Otto, The Idea of the Holy, 1917, English
translation 1923, written by the German theologian who was regarded as one
of
the two most important Protestant theologians of that era). It was a
realization
that learning to become intuitively aware of the holy and sacred dimension
of
reality at the feeling level was at the root of real God-consciousness. If
you
could walk into a church and "feel" the presence of the holy, and then could
learn to feel that same intuitive sense of divine presence in other places
too,
then you could learn how to practice God-consciousness on an everyday basis.
God
became real only when we could learn to "feel" his presence -- a God who was
only an intellectual theory or an ecclesiastical dogma blindly believed in,
could not help an alcoholic stop drinking.

But then in December 1934, when Bill was in Towns Hospital, he had another
even
more dramatic spiritual experience of an extraordinary sort. The majority of
AA
members, however, never ever have a spiritual experience of that sort, and
it is
not at all necessary to getting sober and obtaining deep serenity and
spirituality (see Appendix Two to the Big Book, on pages 569-570 of the
third
edition). So it is the first conversion experience which we in AA ought
primarily to focus on in developing our own spirituality, not trying to
obtain
visionary experiences like the one Bill W. had in Towns Hospital, and we are
also warned in Appendix Two that learning to fully feel the presence of the
sacred dimension of reality and God's presence with us, may only develop
slowly
over a long period of time.

The reference however to the "sudden spiritual experience" in the Foreword
to
the Second Edition (pages xi-xvi) sounds like Bill W. is referring to the
later
one in Towns Hospital instead of the earlier one in his kitchen when he was
talking with Ebby.

However, Ebby was still important. Ebby was at this time deeply involved in
the
Oxford Group (although there was also a connection, via Rowland Hazard, to
Courtenay Baylor and the Emmanuel Movement). So in the Foreword to the
Second
Edition of the Big Book, Bill Wilson tries to summarize what he picked up
from
the Oxford Group in his first contact with them, at the end of 1934. So this
is
where the reference to Oxford Group "tenets" comes into the Foreword:

"Though he [Bill Wilson] could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford
Groups,
he was convinced of the need for [1] moral inventory, [2] confession of
personality defects, [3] restitution to those harmed, [4] helpfulness to
others,
and [5] the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."

By "the tenets of the Oxford Groups," Bill Wilson here simply meant all the
many
different parts of the Oxford Group teachings. It was just a general
reference
to everything the OG taught. Bill W. was not making a reference here to some
formal list of five or six or seven particular rules. That is, there was no
list
of five or six particular Oxford Group rules that were called "The Tenets"
and
were listed in the way in which the Hebrew Bible has Ten Commandments and
A.A.
has Twelve Steps. There were dozens of Oxford Group beliefs.

So what Bill W. was saying was that the OG had all sorts of "tenets" or
beliefs,
that is, all sorts of various teachings on all sorts of various topics, but
that
he rejected many of these, even back in 1935, believing that they were not
useful or appropriate for him or other recovering alcoholics. This is
important
to note -- Bill W. is insisting here in 1955 that he NEVER bought the ENTIRE
Oxford Group line, even back at the end of 1934. Alcoholics Anonymous
historians
can and will argue about that one. But Bill W. was saying that he did find
SOME
Oxford Group teachings useful for recovering alcoholics, and tosses off a
quick
sample of five of the kinds of things which he and the AA movement had found
to
be of continuing usefulness.

It is also important to note though that Bill W. did not actually say here
that
these were the ONLY five Oxford Group teachings that he was following back
at
the end of 1934, or that AA people were following in 1935, 36, and 37. In
context here, Bill W. was trying to give a very short list of only the most
important influences on him back at the end of 1934 when he was first
getting
sober himself, which means that all he was really saying was that these were
five OG teachings that he thought were especially useful back at that time.

Anybody who knows the sorts of teachings and practices which were found in
Oxford Group circles c. 1934-1937 can point out many other things which Bill
W.
and early AA were pulling from the OG back then, and many other OG teachings
and
practices which are still being used in AA today.

Where some of the additional confusion occurs, is that there are also lists
of
what we might call an early six step version of what would eventually become
the
twelve steps. See for example page 292 in the 3rd edition (page 263 in the
4th
edition), where it says that in very early Akron A.A., "The six steps were:

1. Complete deflation.

2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power.

3. Moral inventory.

4. Confession.

5. Restitution.

6. Continued work with other alcoholics."

The first one, ego deflation, was primarily tied in with psychiatric
principles
(see especially the writings of Dr. Harry M. Tiebout, one of AA's early
friends)
and not the Oxford Group per se, and the sixth one is coming from Bill W.'s
own
personal experience in the period right after he got sober at the end of
1934.
But AA people certainly first realized the importance of the other four
steps on
this early list from their association with the Oxford Group when AA had
just
begun.

Arthur Sheehan in Message 2286 gives a very thorough list of other early AA
versions of a sort of six-step program.

So the basic answer to your question, Carl, would be that the Oxford Group
did
not have five tenets or six tenets, but dozens of different beliefs and
teachings. There was no formal list of five or six which they singled out in
particular which corresponded to Bill W.'s list of five items in the
Foreword to
the Second Edition. There was also no "six step program" in the Oxford Group
itself. There was however a kind of informal statement of the AA program
sometimes given during the early period which broke it down into six steps
roughly. Some of these were connected with Oxford Group beliefs and
practices,
and others were not.

However, when the Twelve Steps were finally written by Bill W., there were
obviously deep influences still coming from the period when AA had been part
of
the Oxford Group. It is still valuable to go back and look at the Oxford
Group
if we want to understand how to interpret some of the Twelve Steps. So Step
Eleven, for example, which tells us that we are to pray to God for
"knowledge of
His will for us," derives from the Oxford Group's belief in divine guidance,
and
so on.

Some of AA's spirituality (for example this belief in praying to receive
divine
guidance) was fairly much common Protestant evangelical belief which showed
up
in all sorts of evangelical groups during the early twentieth century, but
even
in those cases, it was the Oxford Group where Bill W. and Dr. Bob were
initially
introduced to them, or at least initially had the importance of these ideas
pounded into their heads!

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2347. . . . . . . . . . . . "The Independent Blonde" Dies in
Pennsylvania at age 97
From: johnpine@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2005 9:36:00 AM

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My former sponsor, based in southeastern Pennsylvania, informed me today
that
Nancy Flynn, the "Independent Blonde" of the second edition of the Big Book,
passed away on April 16th in Kennett Square, Pennsylvania, at the age of 97.
She
was 57 years sober.

Nancy, who was born in Philadelphia and got sober in New York City, was a
speaker at the International Conference in Minneapolis in 2000. She was so
tiny
that she had to stand on a platform to reach the microphone but was so
spirited
that she received thunderous applause and cheers of "More" from many in the
crowd at the Saturday night main meeting in the Metrodome.

Here is a link to the local newspaper obituary:
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14371521&BRD=1671&PAG=461&dept_id=
1778\

6&rfi=6 [8]

In unity, love and service,

John Pine
Richmond, VA

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++++Message 2348. . . . . . . . . . . . Pre AA recovery
From: kadgen2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2005 7:45:00 AM

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Does anyone have any ideas or information about Wilson's thoughts
regarding pre-AA recovery? And why, with the exception of the 1945
Washingtonian article, he left it unaddressed.

Thanks

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++++Message 2349. . . . . . . . . . . . Our will and our lives
From: Richard Foss . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2005 11:28:00 PM

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In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives over.." Why is "will"
singular, and "lives" plural? This was the question at the "meeting after
the
meeting," and this one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed
in
any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes in the various
editions and printings of the Big Book? Any ideas?

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++++Message 2350. . . . . . . . . . . . Who came to Fitz Mayo in the
hospital?
From: saturntad . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2005 11:08:00 AM

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On page 56, second paragraph, Fitz Mayo was "approached by an
alcoholic who had known a spiritual experience." Who was this visitor?

Your help would be appreciated.

Sincerely, Tad

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++++Message 2351. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The dozens of Oxford Group
tenets
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2005 4:31:00 PM

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Hi Glenn,
Have you taken into account the six steps Bill W. mentions on page 160 of
"Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age"? The Oxford Groups are listed as a
partial
source for these.
It's also interesting that several "lists of six" are bouncing around in
this
early history. Writing in The Atlantic Monthly of August 1934, the noted
theologian Henry P. Van Dusen listed six points to cover the Groups' work:
1. Men are sinners
2. Men can be changed.
3. Confession is prerequisite to change.
4. The changed soul has direct access to God.
5. The Age of Miracles has returned.
6. Those who have been changed must change others.
As for The Oxford Group having six specific tenets, Willard Hunter has
always
said they didn't.
Mel Barger

IN ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE pp. 160-161 BILL WILSON WRITES:

"I was in this anything-but-spiritual mood on the night when the Twelve
Steps of
Alcoholics Anonymous were written. I was sore and tired clear through. I lay
in
bed at 182 Clinton Street with pencil in hand and with a tablet of scratch
paper
on my knee. I could not get my mind on the job, much less put my heart in
it.
But here was one of those things that had to be done. Slowly my mind came
into
some kind of focus.
Since Ebby's visit to me in the fall of 1934 we had gradually evolved what
we
called "the word-of-mouth program." Most of the basic ideas had come from
the
Oxford Groups, William James, and Dr. Silkworth. Though subject to
considerable
variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent procedure which
comprised
six steps. These were approximately as follows:
1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over alcohol.
2. We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins.
3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in
confidence.
4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our drinking.
5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward in money or
prestige.
6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to practice
these
precepts.
This was the substance of what, by the fall of 1938, we were telling
newcomers.
Several of the Oxford Groups' other ideas and attitudes had been definitely
rejected, including any which could involve us in theological controversy.
In
important matters there was still considerable disagreement between the
Eastern
and the Midwestern viewpoints. Our people out there were still active Oxford
Group members, while we in New York had withdrawn a year before. In Akron
and
vicinity they still talked about the Oxford Groups' absolutes: absolute
honesty,
absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. This dose was
found
to be too rich for New Yorkers, and we had abandoned the expressions."

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++++Message 2352. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who came to Fitz Mayo in the
hospital?
From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2005 5:56:00 AM

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QUESTION from "saturntad" <saturntad@aol.com>
On page 56, second paragraph, Fitz Mayo was "approached by an alcoholic who
had
known a spiritual experience." Who was this visitor?

ANSWER from Diz Ticher (and also from Bill Lash):

Bill Wilson

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++++Message 2353. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Our will and our lives
From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2005 8:42:00 AM

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its english.
it doesn't make cents.
it just sounds better that weigh.

>>> richfoss@sprintmail.com 4/25/2005 12:28 AM >>>

In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives over.." Why is "will"
singular, and "lives" plural? This was the question at the "meeting after
the
meeting," and this one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed
in
any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes in the various
editions and printings of the Big Book? Any ideas?

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2354. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Our will and our lives
From: Alex H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2005 1:04:00 AM

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> In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives
> over.." Why is "will" singular, and "lives" plural? This
> was the question at the "meeting after the meeting," and this
> one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed in
> any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes
> in the various editions and printings of the Big Book? Any
> ideas?

Yes.

Assuming that this is not a simple mistake in grammar.... I
suggest that "our will" might refer to our collective will.
While we might collectively act as a single person, we cannot
live as single person so we might say "We dedicate our
collective will and our individual lives to our Higher Power."

Good question.

Alex H.

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++++Message 2355. . . . . . . . . . . . "Checking" other people in the
Oxford Group
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2005 3:24:00 PM

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shaynamedel@yahoo.com wrote in asking about one aspect of the Oxford Group
practice of "checking" other members. In OG literature and practice,
sometimes
that word was used to describe one OG member walking up to another OG member
and
"taking the other person's inventory," as we would put it in AA terminology.

(In my understanding, the word "checking" could also be used to refer to
another
element in their program, where it was part of the introduction of newcomers
into the program, done with the intention of producing "change" in the
newcomer,
that is, a fundamental alteration of the person's basic attitude towards
life,
where the person would become willing to make restitution for any wrongs
done,
and take up a whole new way of life.)

The sense of the word that we are interested in here, however, is
illustrated in
a story told by J. D. Holmes, the tenth person to get sober in A.A., who
eventually left Akron and started the first A.A. group in Indiana. I am
quoting
here from "How A.A. Came to Indiana," see http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html ,
which in turn is quoting from Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (New York:
Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, 1980), p. 140.

<<When the alcoholics in Akron were still meeting with the Oxford Group, J.
D.
said that there was one woman who "used to get on my nerves with her
constant
chatter. One day, I called her into T. Henry's study and said, 'I don't like
you
for some reason or other.'" (In the Oxford Group, you were supposed to
"check"
people like that, as they called it.)

"'You interrupt and talk too much. I'm getting a lot of resentment here, and
I
don't like it, and I'm afraid I'll get drunk over it.'

"She laughed and said something. Then we sat down and had a very pleasant
visit.
And I lost all resentment.">>

With a group of alcoholics, as opposed to polite, well-behaved normal OG
members, this sort of thing would obviously start wild, angry shouting
matches
on many occasions, and maybe even worse. So in the A.A. program, this
practice
of criticizing other people's behavior to their face in this kind of way was
eventually called "taking someone else's inventory," and strongly
discouraged.

The question which shaynamedel@yahoo.com raises is, can anyone tell us when
checking other people like this first began to be rejected as an A.A.
practice?
And can anyone tell us if there are places in the early A.A. literature
talking
about the break with the OG and discussing this particular issue?

Also, it would be useful if some of our real OG experts could tell us more
about
"checking" in the Oxford Group, including the way it was practiced on
newcomers
when they first came in, in order to produce people who had been "changed."

Moderator

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++++Message 2356. . . . . . . . . . . . 13th stepping
From: Julie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2005 5:01:00 PM

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Where did the term "13th stepping" come from? When did AA people first start
using this phrase to refer to men AA members hitting on new women in the
program
(and vice versa), pretending that they were going to "help" the newcomer
understand the program?

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++++Message 2357. . . . . . . . . . . . The man who committed suicide in
Bill''s story
From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2005 8:50:00 PM

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Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who committed
suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?

Mnay Thanks
Carl P
Enfield UK

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++++Message 2358. . . . . . . . . . . . ICYPAA archives
From: erstwhile_erratic_aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2005 7:10:00 AM

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I was recently elected as the archivist for ICYPAA (International
Conference of Young People in AA). I am hoping to make contact with
some people that have been involved in past years. The 50th ICYPAA is
two years away and I'd like to put together a presentation of archives
for that convention. Interviewing any of the people intimately
involved would be deeply appreciated. I was hopeful some of you
history buffs could help me.

You can email me directly or from www.icypaa.org

Thanks in advance,

Tom Hoban
ICYPAA archivist

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++++Message 2359. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The man who committed suicide in
Bill''s story
From: lester gother . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2005 5:26:00 PM

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Hi Carl, The man in Bill's story is Bill C. a Canadian attorney. Bill and
Lois
were away at Fitz Mayo's in Maryland. It's reported that Bill put his head
in
the oven. Seems that it was quite a bitter end!

Love and Service
Lester Gother

------------------------------

"Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net>
His name was Bill C. and the year was 1936. Bill and Lois were off to
Vermont for a visit and Bill C. was house sitting. He hocked all of their
clothing for booze and when the booze was gone he stuck his head in an oven,
turned on the gas.

Diz T.

------------------------------
Original Message From Carl P., Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:50 PM

Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who committed
suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?

Many Thanks, Carl P,Enfield UK

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++++Message 2360. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The man who committed suicide in
Bill''s story
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2005 8:56:00 AM

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Hi Carl
SOURCE REFERENCES:
AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS
AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS
AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft
cover)
BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)
BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)
EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)
GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft
cover)
GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)
LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
PIO - Pass It On, AAWS
When Bill W returned from Akron, OH in August 1935 he began holding
meetings at his house at 182 Clinton St on Tuesday nights. His home
also became a halfway house, of sorts, for drunks. Ebby T moved in
that November (AACOA 74, BW-RT 225, PIO 160-162, GTBT 96, GB 51, AGAA
145).
The suicide occurred two years later in October 1937. The prior April,
Ebby T got drunk after two years and seven months sobriety. (LR 197,
EBBY 77, BW-FH 63, PIO 177) In august, Bill and Lois stopped attending
Oxford Group meetings. The NY AAs separated from the OG. (LR 197,
AACOA vii, 74-76)
Alcoholic residents at 182 Clinton St were Ebby T, Oscar V, Russell R,
Bill C and Florence R (whose Big Book story is A Feminine Victory). In
October 1937, Bill C, a young Canadian (and former attorney who sold
Bill W’s and Lois’ clothes to get liquor) committed suicide in the
house while Bill and Lois were away visiting Fitz M (PIO 165 says
summer of 1936). Florence R, the first woman at Clinton St, later went
to Washington, DC to help Fitz M. She started drinking again in 1939
and later died destitute in 1941. (AACOA 19, AABB 16, BW-RT 237-239,
LR 107)
Cheers
Arthur
_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl P.
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:51 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The man who committed suicide in Bill's
story

Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who
committed suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?

Mnay Thanks
Carl P
Enfield UK

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++++Message 2361. . . . . . . . . . . . "Checking" other people in the
Oxford Group
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2005 12:06:00 PM

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To add to Glenn’s commentary, one of the key OG practices was to
“check guidance.” From what I’ve been able to glean from various
readings, the most noble and spiritual context of “check guidance”
would be equivalent to AA’s 11th Step - that is to seek the knowledge
of God’s will in every aspect of life.
It might also include more than one person in the process and occur in
OG meetings. Henrietta Sieberling reputedly used this approach on Dr
Bob to get him to start admitting his alcohol problem. In the
illustration cited by Glenn, it could also involve the principles of
taking a moral inventory and honestly discussing it with someone else
(Steps 4 thru 10). While some may brand the example as “taking someone
else’s inventory” it really doesn’t depart that much from the type of
discussion that goes on between a member and his/her sponsor or
trusted AA friend.
The following is a rather lengthy timeline to highlight the influence
of the Oxford Group on the founding and practices of AA. The size of
this message will probably result in it being truncated in the AAHL
on-line archives, but the email version should arrive intact. Source
references are noted at the end of the message.
Timeline
1908 - Jul, Frank N D Buchman arrived in England to attend the Keswick
Convention of evangelicals. After hearing a sermon by a woman
evangelist, Jessie Penn-Lewis, he experienced a profound spiritual
surrender and later helped another attendee to go through the same
experience. His experiences became the key to the rest of his life’s
work. Returning to the US, he started his “laboratory years” working
out the principles he would later apply on a global scale. (NG 9, NW
32-45, PIO 130)
1918 - Jan, Frank Buchman met Sam Shoemaker in Peking (now Beijing)
China. Shoemaker had a spiritual conversion experience and became a
devoted member of Buchman’s First Century Christian Fellowship. (NW
29, 47-52, RAA 117-118, AGAA 209)
1921 - Frank Buchman was invited to visit Cambridge, England. His
movement The First Century Christian Fellowship would later become the
Oxford Group and receive wide publicity during the 1920’s and 1930’s.
Core principles consisted of the “four absolutes” (of honesty,
unselfishness, purity and love - believed to be derived from scripture
in the Sermon on the Mount). Additionally the OG advocated the “five
C’s” (confidence, confession, conviction, conversion and continuance)
and “five procedures” (1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God’s
direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitution and 5. Sharing - for
witness and confession). (DBGO 53-55, CH 3) (GB 45 states Buchman
dated the founding and name of the OG when he met with undergraduates
from Christ Church College of Oxford U).
1922 - Frank Buchman resigned his job at the Hartford Theological
Seminary to pursue a wider calling. Over the next few years, he worked
mostly in universities (Princeton, Oxford and Cambridge). During the
economic depression, students (particularly in Oxford) responded to
his approach and were ordained ministers. Others gave all their time
to working with him. (www)
1928 - Summer (?), a group of Rhodes Scholars returned home to S.
Africa, from Oxford U, England to tell how their lives changed through
meeting Frank Buchman. A railway employee labeled their train
compartment The Oxford Group. The press took it up and the name stuck
(the name First Century Christian Fellowship faded). (RAA 120, www)
1931 - Dec, Russell (Bud) Firestone (alcoholic son of Akron, OH
business magnate Harvey Firestone Sr.) was introduced to Sam Shoemaker
by James Newton on a train returning from an Episcopal conference in
Denver, CO. Newton was a prominent Oxford Group member and an
executive at Firestone. Bud, who was drinking a fifth or more of
whiskey a day, spiritually surrendered with Shoemaker and was released
from his alcohol obsession. Bud joined the OG and became an active
member (but later returned to drinking). (NW 15, 65, AGAA 8-9, 32-36)
1932 - Rowland H found sobriety through the spiritual practices of the
Oxford Group (it is not clear whether this occurred in Europe or the
US - and it could have occurred in 1931). Rowland was a dedicated OG
member in NY, VT and upper MA and a prominent member of the Calvary
Episcopal Church in NYC. He later moved to Shaftsbury, VT. (NW 10-19,
NG 8-9, PIO 113-114, AGAA 28, 141-144, LOH 277-278, www)
1933
Jan, Harvey Firestone Sr. (grateful for help given his son Bud)
sponsored an Oxford Group conference weekend (DBGO says 10-day house
party) headquartered at the Mayflower Hotel in Akron, OH. Frank
Buchman and 30 members (DBGO says 60) of his team were met at the
train station by the Firestones and Rev Walter Tunks (Firestone’s
minister and rector of St Paul’s Episcopal Church). The event included
300 overseas members of the OG and received widespread news coverage.
The event attracted Henrietta Sieberling, T Henry and Clarace Williams
and Anne Smith. (NW 65-67, CH 2, DBGO 55, AGAA 9, 37-51, 71)
Early, Anne Smith attended meetings of the Oxford Group with her
friend Henrietta Sieberling (whose marriage to J Frederick Sieberling
was crumbling). Anne later persuaded Dr Bob to attend. The meetings
were held on Thursday nights at the West Hill group. (NW 67-68, SI 32,
34, DBGO 53-60, CH 2-3, 28-29) Beer had become legal and Dr Bob
previously went through a beer-drinking phase (“the beer experiment”).
It was not long before he was drinking a case and a half a day
fortifying the beer with straight alcohol. In his Big Book story, Bob
says that this was around the time when he was introduced to the OG.
He participated in the OG for 2 ½ years before meeting Bill. (DBGO 42,
AABB 177-178, NW 62)
1934
Jul, Ebby T was approached in Manchester, VT by his friends Cebra
Graves ~ (an attorney) and F Sheppard (Shep) Cornell ~ (a NY
stockbroker). Both were Oxford Group members who had done considerable
drinking with Ebby and were abstaining from drinking. They informed
Ebby of the OG in VT but he was not quite ready yet to stop drinking.
(EBBY 51-55, PIO 113)
Aug, Cebra G and Shep C vacationed at Rowland H’s house in Bennington,
VT. Cebra learned that Ebby T was about to be committed to Brattleboro
Asylum. Cebra, Shep and Rowland decided to make Ebby “a project.” (NG
309) Rowland H and Cebra G persuaded a VT court judge (Cebra's father
Collins) to parole Ebby T into their custody. Ebby had first met
Rowland only shortly before. In the fall, Rowland took Ebby to NYC
where he sobered up with the help of the Oxford Group at the Calvary
Mission. (RAA 151, AACOA vii, NW 20-21, 26, EBBY 52-59, NG 9-10, PIO
115, AGAA 155-156)
Nov (late), Ebby T, while staying at the Calvary Mission and working
with the Oxford Group, heard about Bill W’s problems with drinking. He
phoned Lois who invited him over for dinner. (EBBY 66) Ebby visited
Bill W at 182 Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one
alcoholic talking to another.” (AACOA vii, 58-59) A few days later,
Ebby returned with Shep C. They spoke to Bill about the Oxford Group.
Bill did not think too highly of Shep. Lois recalled that Ebby visited
several times, once even staying for dinner. (AACOA vii, NG 17-18,
311, BW-FH 57-58, NW 22-23, PIO 111-116, BW-RT 187-192)
Dec 7, Bill W decided to investigate the Calvary Mission on 23rd St.
He showed up drunk with a drinking companion found along the way (Alec
the Finn). Bill kept interrupting the service wanting to speak. On the
verge of being ejected, Ebby came by and fed Bill a plate of beans.
Bill later joined the penitents and drunkenly “testified” at the
meeting. (AACOA 59-60, BW-40 136-137, NG 18-19, BW-FH 60, NW 23, PIO
116-119, BW-RT 193-196, AGAA 156-159, EBBY 66-69)
Dec 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had
his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got
financial help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA
61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31).
Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him about the
Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell into a deep
depression (his “deflation at depth”) and had a profound spiritual
experience after crying out “If there be a God, will he show himself.”
Dr Silkworth later assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang
on to what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would
later refer to this as his “white flash” or “hot flash” experience.
(AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO
120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)
Dec 15, Ebby brought Bill W a copy of William James' book The
Varieties of Religious Experience. Bill was deeply inspired by the
book. It revealed three key points for recovery: 1) calamity or
complete defeat in some vital area of life (hitting bottom), 2)
admission of defeat (surrender) and 3) appeal to a higher power for
help (acceptance). The book strongly influenced early AAs and is cited
in the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, SI 26, BW-40 150-152,
NG 20-24, 312-313, NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28)
Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He
and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at
Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary
Church (the OG’s US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park
Ave) and 21st St. Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held)
was at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St.
(AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB
32-33, AGAA 144)
Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG
alcoholics met at Stewart’s Cafeteria near the Calvary Mission.
Attendees included Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA
141-142, NG 314)
1935
Early, Bill W worked with alcoholics at the Calvary Mission and Towns
Hospital, emphasizing his "hot flash" spiritual experience. Alcoholic
Oxford Group members began meeting at his home on Clinton St. Bill had
no success sobering up others. (AACOA vii, AABB, BW-FH 69, PIO
131-133)
Mar/Apr, Henrietta Sieberling (nicknamed “Henri”) encouraged by her
friend Delphine Weber, organized a Wednesday-night Oxford Group
meeting at T Henry and Clarace Williams’ house on 676 Palisades Dr.
The meeting was started specifically to help Dr Bob who later
confessed openly about his drinking problem. OG meetings continued at
the William’s house until 1954. (DBGO 56-59, AGAA 103 says May)
Apr, Bill W had a talk with Dr Silkworth who advised him to stop
preaching about his “hot flash” and hit the alcoholics hard with the
medical view. Silkworth advised Bill to break down the strong egos of
alcoholics by telling them about the obsession that condemned them to
drink and allergy that condemned them to go mad or die. It would then
be easier to get them to accept the spiritual solution. (AACOA 13,
67-68, BW-RT 211, NG 25-26, PIO 133) Bill W returned to Wall St and
was introduced to Howard Tompkins of the firm Baer and Co. Tompkins
was involved in a proxy fight to take over control of the National
Rubber Machinery Co. based in Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211, NG 26, BW-FH 74,
PIO 133-134, GB 33)
May, Bill W went to Akron but the proxy fight was quickly lost. He
remained behind at the Mayflower Hotel very discouraged. (BW-RT 212,
PIO 134-135)
May 11, (AGAA says May 10) Bill W, in poor spirits, and tempted to
enter the Mayflower Hotel bar, realized he needed another alcoholic.
He telephoned members of the clergy listed on the lobby directory. He
reached the Rev Walter Tunks who referred him to Norman Sheppard who
then referred him to Henrietta Sieberling (47 years old and an Oxford
Group adherent). Bill introduced himself as “a member of the OG and a
rum hound from NY.” Henrietta met with Bill at her gatehouse (Stan
Hywet Hall) on the Sieberling estate. She arranged a dinner meeting
the next day with Dr Bob and Anne. (AACOA 65-67, SI 21, BW-RT 212-213,
DBGO 60, 63-67, NG 26-28, PIO 134-138, GB 19) Note: some stories
(AACOA 67) say that when Henrietta called Anne, Dr Bob was passed out
under the kitchen table. He was upstairs in bed (re Dr. Bob’s
Nightmare 179, 4th Ed).
May 12, Mother’s Day (AGAA says Mother’s Day was May 11) Bill W (age
39) met Dr Bob (age 55) Anne and their young son Bob (age 17) at
Henrietta Sieberling’s gatehouse at 5PM. Dr Bob, too hung over to eat
dinner, planned to stay only 15 minutes. Privately, in the library,
Bill told Bob of his alcoholism experience in the manner suggested by
Dr Silkworth. Bob opened up and he and Bill talked until after 11PM.
(AACOA vii, 67-70, BW-RT 214-215, DBGO 66-69, NG 28-32, BW-FH 4, GB
21)
May, Bill W wrote a letter to Lois saying that he and Dr Bob tried in
vain to sober up a Dr McKay, ~ a “once prominent surgeon” who
developed into a “terrific rake and drunk” (BW-40 Appendix C).
Henrietta Sieberling arranged for Bill to stay at the Portage Country
Club. (DBGO 70, 77)
Jun, Bill W moved to Dr Bob’s house at the request of Anne Smith. Bill
insisted on keeping two bottles of liquor in the kitchen to prove that
he and Bob could live in the presence of liquor. Both worked with
alcoholics and went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at
the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to
the proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73,
DBGO 70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture
readings at meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians
Chapter 13 and the Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96
says that meetings were held at Dr Bob’s house and moved to the
Williams’ house in late 1936 or early 1937)
1936
Bill W's efforts in working only with alcoholics were criticized by NY
Oxford Group members. Similarly, in Akron, T Henry and Clarace
Williams were criticized as well by OG members who were not supportive
of their efforts being extended primarily to alcoholics. (NG 44-45, NW
73, AGAA 76)
Jun, the Oxford Group was at the height of its popularity. 10,000
people (GB 46 says 5,000) flocked to the Berkshires for a meeting at
Stockbridge, MA. (PIO 170) An OG “house-party” (a cross between a
convention and a retreat) in Birmingham, England drew 15,000. (GB 46,
AAGA 173)
Aug 26, Frank Buchman and the Oxford Group experienced an
international public relations disaster. A NY World Telegram article
by William H Birnie, quoted Buchman as saying, “I thank heaven for a
man like Adolph Hitler, who built a front-line of defense against the
anti-Christ of Communism.” Although the remark was taken out of
context in its reporting, it would plague Buchman’s reputation for
many years. It marked the beginning of the decline of the OG. (NW 30,
96, DBGO 155, BW-FH 96, PIO 170-171, GB 53, AGAA 161)
1937
Early, Bill W and Lois attended a major Oxford Group house party at
the Hotel Thayer in West Point, NY. For the previous 2 ½ years they
had been attending two OG meetings a week. (NW 89)
Late spring, leaders of the Oxford Group at the Calvary Mission
ordered alcoholics staying there not to attend meetings at Clinton St.
Bill W and Lois were criticized by OG members for having “drunks only”
meetings at their home. The Wilson’s were described as “not maximum”
(an OG term for those believed to be lagging in their devotion to OG
principles). (EBBY 75, LR 103, BW-RT 231, NG 45, NW 89-91)
Aug, Bill and Lois stopped attending Oxford Group meetings. The NY AAs
separated from the OG. (LR 197, AACOA vii, 74-76)
1938 - Nations of the world armed for World War II and Frank Buchman
called for a “moral and spiritual re-armament” to address the root
causes of the conflict. He renamed the Oxford Group to Moral
Re-Armament. (www, NW 44)
1939
May 10, Led by pioneer member Clarence Snyder ~ (Home Brewmeister) the
Cleveland, OH group met separately from Akron and the Oxford Group at
the home of Albert (Abby) Goldrick ~ (He Thought He Could Drink Like a
Gentleman). This was the first group to call itself Alcoholics
Anonymous. The Clevelanders still sent their most difficult cases to
Dr Bob in Akron for treatment. (AACOA 19-21, NW 94, SI 35, DBGO
161-168, NG 78-79, PIO 224, AGAA 4, 201, 242).
Oct (late), (AACOA viii says summer) Akron members of the “alcoholic
squad” withdrew from the Oxford Group and held meetings at Dr Bob’s
house. It was a painful separation due to the great affection the
alcoholic members had toward T Henry and Clarace Williams. (NW 93-94,
SI 35, DBGO 212-219, NG 81, GTBT 123, AGAA 8-10, 188, 243)
1941 - Nov, Dr Sam Shoemaker left the Oxford Group (then called Moral
Re-Armament) and formed a fellowship named Faith at Work. MRA was
asked to completely vacate the premises at Calvary House. Shoemaker’s
dispute with Buchman was amplified in the press. (EBBY 75-76, AAGA
161, 244)
1949 - Jul 14, in a letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker, Bill W wrote “So
far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA.
It was our spiritual wellspring at the beginning.” (AGAA 137)
1961 - Frank N D Buchman died. Moral Re-Armament had declined
significantly in numbers and influence and became headquartered in
Caux, Switzerland. (NW 45, 97-98) In 2001, MRA changed its name to
Initiatives of Change. A month after Buchman’s death Bill W wrote to a
friend regretting that he did not write to Buchman acknowledging his
contributions to the AA movement. (www, PIO 386-387)
SOURCE REFERENCES:
AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS
AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS
AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft
cover)
BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)
BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)
BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography (hard cover)
CH - Children of the Healer, Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by
Christine Brewer (soft cover)
DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers, AAWS
EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)
GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft
cover)
GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)
LOH - The Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine Inc
LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz (expanded edition, soft cover)
NW - New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)
PIO - Pass It On, AAWS
RAA - The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman, nee AA the
Way It Began (soft cover)
SI - Sister Ignatia, by Mary C Darrah (soft cover)
www - Internet Sources (e.g. Google, Microsoft Encarta, etc.)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2362. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Checking" other people in the
Oxford Group
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2005 10:56:00 PM

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Checking in the Oxford Groups was not necessarily intrusive
or confrontational. In morning Quiet Time, there would be a
period in which members would write "luminous thoughts" they
received into their Guidance Books. This was at a level
of inspiration that was almost automatic writing. When a
member then read what he had written, it might apply to
some situation he was dealing with or it might not mean
anything to him until later that day.

If a number of OG members were in Quiet Time together, it
was common practice to share what Guidance had been written.
Others might help to Check the interpretation. Sometimes,
what one member had written might match the Guidance that
another had received that same day. This was taken as
further evidence that it was Guidance from God.

Some of this brought criticism to the Oxford Groups that
automatic writing was an occult, not a Christian, practice.

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++++Message 2363. . . . . . . . . . . . Origins of 4th step column format
From: erstwhile_erratic_aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2005 8:27:00 AM

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I am wondering if anyone out there knows where Bill got the 4th step
format as found in the Big Book? It is clear self-apprasial,
restitution, etc. come from common spiritual practice. But did Bill
get the column format from an early psychologist or the like? The
4th step prayer (the so-called 3 1/2th column) and the looking at our
part(the
infamous 4th column), the things he asks us to focus on: self-
esteem, security, ambitions, personal and sex relations. That
troublesome little word fear, etc. Thank you in advance.

Tom Hoban
Marietta, GA.

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++++Message 2364. . . . . . . . . . . . 3rd legacy voting procedure origins
From: erstwhile_erratic_aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2005 8:29:00 AM

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In a similiar request to the 4th step origins I asked. What about the
3rd legacy voting procedure. It is unique to AA but the recent voting
at the Vatican seems very similiar. Any ideas where Bill got this
format for voting?

Tom Hoban
Marietta, GA.

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++++Message 2365. . . . . . . . . . . . WayBack Machine Internet Archive
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2005 8:22:00 PM

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AA's presence on the internet is part of AA history.
Much of that history has been archived and is available
on-line. You can get to it through the WayBack Archive:

http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

When that page comes up, enter a URL that interests you.
There is a good chance that versions of that web page
will be available going back a number of years. If the
exact page you want did not exist in the past, you may
have to start with the root URL and work from there.

Here is an example of the history of http://aa.org/
It was also available as http://alcoholics-anonymous.org/
so try it both ways. Both go back to 1996 but they are
slightly different:

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://aa.org/
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://alcoholics-anonymous.org/

Some of the images may not be available in the WayBack
Archive but you get a good idea of what was on a page.
I believe I've seen cases where a missing image became
available a day later. If you don't get any response,
try again when the server is less busy.

There is even a link that you can drag to your browser's
toolbar to perform WayBack lookup on what you are seeing
at the moment.

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++++Message 2366. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W Quote
From: gvnurse2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2005 10:33:00 PM

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There is a quote attributed to Bill W, where (talking about
Television) he says something about "The future of AA depends on how
we use this new technology." It was widely circulated in Online AA.
Can anyone give me the exact wording of the quote and tell me where it
originated?
Thanks,
Sharon H in California

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++++Message 2367. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s Golf Game
From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2005 11:10:00 PM

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We all know that Bill Wilson never did manage to "overtake" Walter
Hagen, the flamboyant golf champion. Bill's golf playing is mentioned
in several books, including the Big Book.

But, does anyone know of any mention, anywhere, that would give even a
hint of just what kind of game Bill played?

I like substantiated facts regarding our history, but I'd settle for
hearsay on this one.

How good a golfer was he in fact?

Peace,

Danny S

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++++Message 2368. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: List of movies on A.A. and
alcoholism
From: jimmy . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2005 12:30:00 AM

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In addition to these movies, there was a made for tv film (like
hallmark hall of fame, but it was ABC Afterschool Special), entitled
"Sarah T: Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic."

I know a number of teenagers in AA, who actually refer to that film as
instrumental in carrying the message to them.

Jimmy Moss, Burbank, CA USA

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++++Message 2369. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Checking" other people in the
Oxford Group
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2005 6:57:00 PM

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Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group

Here are a couple of explainations from Bill W.

7Q - What did A.A. learn from the Oxford Group and why did they leave them?

7A - AA's first step was derived largely from my own physician, Dr.
Silkworth, and my sponsor Ebby and his friend, from Dr, Jung of Zurich. I
refer to the medical hopelessness of alcoholism - our 'powerlessness' over
alcohol.

The rest of the Twelve Steps stem directly from those Oxford Group teachings
that applied specifically to us. Of course these teachings were nothing new;
we might have obtained them from your own Church. They were, in effect, an
examination of conscience, confession, restitution, helpfulness to others,
and prayer.

I should acknowledge our great debt to the Oxford Group people. It was
fortunate that they laid particular emphasis on spiritual principles that we
needed. But in fairness it should also be said that many of their attitudes
and practices did not work well at all for us alcoholics. These were
rejected one by one and they caused our later withdrawal from this society
to a fellowship of our own - today's Alcoholics Anonymous.

Perhaps I should specifically outline why we felt it necessary to part
company with them. To begin with, the climate of their undertaking was not
well suited to us alcoholics. They were aggressively evangelical, they
sought to re-vitalize the Christian message in such a way as to "change the
world." Most of us alcoholics had been subjected to pressure of evangelism
and we never liked it. The object of saving the world - when it was still
very much in doubt if we could save ourselves - seemed better left to other
people. By reason of some of its terminology and by exertion of huge
pressure, the Oxford Group set a moral stride that was too fast,
particularly for our newer alcoholics. They constantly talked of Absolute
Purity, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Honesty, and Absolute Love. While
sound theology must always have its absolute values, the Oxford Groups
created the feeling that one should arrive at these destinations in short
order, maybe be next Thursday! Perhaps they didn't mean to create such an
impression but that was the effect. Sometimes their public "witnessing" was
of such a character to cause us to be shy. They also believed that by
"converting" prominent people to their beliefs, they would hasten the
salvation of many who were less prominent. This attitude could scarcely
appeal to the average drunk since he was anything but distinguished.

The Oxford Group also had attitudes and practices which added up to a highly
coercive authority. This was exercised by "teams" of older members. They
would gather in meditation and receive specific guidance for the life
conduct of newcomers. This guidance could cover all possible situations from
the most trivial to the most serious. If the directions so obtained were not
followed, the enforcement machinery began to operate. It consisted of a sort
of coldness and aloofness which made recalcitrants feel they weren't wanted.
At one time, for example, a "team" got guidance for me to the effect that I
was no longer to work with alcoholics. This I could not accept.

Another example: When I first contacted the Oxford Groups, Catholics were
permitted to attend their meetings because they were strictly
non-denominational. But after a time the Catholic Church forbade its members
to attend and the reason for this seemed a good one. Through the Oxford
Group "teams", Catholic Church members were actually receiving specific
guidance for their lives; they were often infused with the idea that their
Church had become rather horse-and-buggy, and needed to be "changed."
Guidance was frequently given that contributions should be made to the
Oxford Groups. In a way this amounted to putting Catholics under a separate
ecclesiastical jurisdiction. At this time there were few Catholics in our
alcoholic groups. Obviously we could not approach any more Catholics under
Oxford Group auspices. Therefore this was another, and the basic reason for
the withdrawal of our alcoholic crowd from the Oxford Groups notwithstanding
our great debt to them. (N.C.C.A. 'Blue Book', Vol. 12, 1960)
Another answer.
7A - The first A.A. group had come into being but we still had no name.
Those were the years of flying blind, those ensuing two or three years. A
slip in those days was a dreadful calamity. We would look at each other and
wonder who might be next. Failure! Failure! Failure was our constant
companion.

I returned home from Akron now endowed with a more becoming humility and
less preaching and a few people began to come to us, a few in Cleveland and
Akron. I had got back into business briefly and again Wall Street collapsed
and took me with it as usual. So I set out West to see if there was
something I could do in that country. Dr. Bob and I of course had been
corresponding but it wasn't until one late fall afternoon in 1937 that I
reached his house and sat in his living room. I can recall the scene as
though it were yesterday and we got out a pencil and paper and we began to
put down the names of those people in Akron, New York and that little
sprinkling in Cleveland who had been dry a while and despite the large
number of failures it finally burst upon us that forty people had got a real
release and had significant dry time behind them. I shall never forget that
great and humbling hour of realization. Bob and I saw for the first time
that a new light had begun to shine down upon us alcoholics, had begun to
shine upon the children of the night.

That realization brought an immense responsibility. Naturally, we thought at
once, how shall what we forty know be carried to the millions who don't
know? Within gunshot of this house there must be others like us who are
thoroughly bothered by this obsession. How shall they know? How is this
going to be transmitted?

Up to this time as you must be aware, A.A. was utterly simple. It filled the
full measure of simplicity as is since demanded by a lot of people. I guess
we old timers all have a nostalgia about those halcyon days of simplicity
when thank God there were no founders and no money and there were no meeting
places, just parlors. Annie and Lois baking cakes and making coffee for
those drunks in the living room. We didn't even have a name! We just called
ourselves a bunch of drunks trying to get sober. We were more anonymous than
we are now. Yes, it was all very simple. But, here was a new realization,
what was the responsibility of the forty men to those who did not know?

Well, I have been in the world of business, a rather hectic world of
business, the world of Wall Street. I suspect that I was a good deal of a
promoter and a bit of a salesman, rather better than I am here today. So I
began to think in business man's terms. We had discovered that the hospitals
did not want us drinkers because, we were poor payers and never got well.
So, why shouldn't we have our own hospitals and I envisioned a great chain
of drunk tanks and hospitals spreading across the land. Probably, I could
sell stocks in those and we could damn well eat as well as save drunks.

Then too, Dr. Bob and I recalled that it had been a very tedious and slow
business to sober up forty people, it had taken about three years and in
those days we old timers had the vainglory to suppose that nobody else could
really do this job but us. So we naturally thought in terms of having
alcoholic missionaries, no disparagement to missionaries to be sure. In
other words, people would be grubstaked for a year or two, moved to Chicago,
St. Louis, Frisco and so on and start little centers and meanwhile we would
be financing this string of drunk tanks and began to suck them into these
places. Yes, we would need missionaries and hospitals! Then came one
reflection that did make some sense.

It seemed very clear that what we had already found out should be put on
paper. We needed a book, so Dr. Bob called a meeting for the very next night
and in that little meeting of a dozen and a half, a historic decision was
taken which deeply affected our destiny. It was in the living room of a
nonalcoholic friend who let us come there because his living room was bigger
than the Smith's parlor and he loved us. I too, remember that day as if it
were yesterday.

So, Smithy and I explained this new obligation which depended on us forty.
How are we to carry this message to the ones who do not know? I began to
wind up my promotion talk about the hospitals and the missionaries and the
book and I saw their faces fall and straight away that meeting divided into
three significant parts. There was the promoter section of which I was
definitely one. There was the section that was indifferent and there was
what you might call the orthodox section.

The orthodox section was very vocal and it said with good reason, "Look! Put
us into business and we are lost. This works because it is simple, because
everybody works at it, because nobody makes anything out of it and because
no one has any axe to grind except his sobriety and the other guy's. If you
publish a book we will have infinite quarrels about the damn thing. It will
get us into business and the clinker of the orthodox section was that our
Lord, Himself, had no book.

Well, it was impressive and events proved that the orthodox people were
practically right, but, thank God, not fully right. Then there were the
indifferent ones who thought, well, if Smitty and Bill think we ought to do
these things well its all right with us. So the indifferent ones, plus the
promoters out voted the orthodoxy and said "If you want to do these things
Bill, you go back to New York where there is a lot of dough and you get the
money and then we'll see."

Well, by this time I'm higher than a kite you know. Promoters can stay high
on something besides alcohol. I was already taking about the greatest
medical development, greatest spiritual development, greatest social
development of all time. Think of it, forty drunks. (Chicago, Ill., February
1951)

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++++Message 2370. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Checking" other people in the
Oxford Group
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/29/2005 7:45:00 PM

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Many books on the OG are often recommended, but rarely the best on
matters such as this: Walter Houston Clark, *The Oxford Group: Its
History and Significance*. Its 1951 publication date makes it all the more
credible for matters concerning the OG and AA. (BTW: Clark treats briefly of
AA
at the conclusion of his book.) Should be available in most libraries.

ernie kurtz

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++++Message 2371. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origins of 4th step column
format
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2005 2:37:00 PM

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Tom wrote

I am wondering if anyone out there knows where Bill got the 4th step
format as found in the Big Book?

In the OG book "For Sinners Only" It was an oral process to get at the root
of the problem.
Jim

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++++Message 2372. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W Quote
From: Russ S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2005 2:51:00 PM

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I believe the quote you are referring to is from a November 1960 Grapevine
article by Bill called: Freedom Under God: The Choice is Ours. The theme of
the
article was The Twelve Traditions and Bill was speaking of the 11th
Tradition.
The quote(?):

Therefore nothing can matter more to the future welfare of AA than the
manner in
which we use this colossus of communication. Used unselfishly and well, the
results can surpass our present imagination. Should we handle this great
instrument badly, we shall be shattered by the ego demands of our own
people--often with the best of intention on their part. Against all this,
the
sacrificial spirit of AA's anonymity at the top public level is literally
our
shield and our buckler. Here again we must be confident that love of AA, and
of
God, will always carry the day.

I've heard Don Imus speak about it MSNBC...

What do you suppose Bill would say about the Internet?

Russ S
Ogdensburg, NJ

-----Original Message-----
From: gvnurse2001 <cdnurse@foothill.net>
Sent: Apr 30, 2005 11:33 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W Quote

There is a quote attributed to Bill W, where (talking about
Television) he says something about "The future of AA depends on how
we use this new technology." It was widely circulated in Online AA.
Can anyone give me the exact wording of the quote and tell me where it
originated?
Thanks,
Sharon H in California

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++++Message 2373. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: List of movies on A.A. and
alcoholism
From: DeafAA@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2005 11:38:00 AM

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Hello:

I am wondering if they do still have VHS or DVD for "Sarah T:Portrait of a
Teenage Alcoholic"? I can't find where I can order it.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2374. . . . . . . . . . . . The man hiding in a bar
From: Adam Martin . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/2/2005 4:41:00 PM

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I was wondering if anybody could anwser my question. Nobody in my town has a
100% for sure anwser.

My question is, does anybody know who the doctor was talking about in his
story
on pg. xxxi third paragraph (fourth edition). Maybe tell me who the case was
and who the prominent doctor was who referred the case to Dr. Silkworth.

"When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case brought in by a
physician prominent in New York. The patient ... had hidden in a deserted
barn
determined to die."

Thank for everything guys,

Adam Martin Fargo, ND

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++++Message 2375. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W Quote
From: Lou M . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2005 4:46:00 AM

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SEE THE LANGUAGE OF THE HEART FOR AN EASILY AVAILABLE TEXT OF THIS QUOTE.

It was in the Nov. 1960 Grapevine and is reprinted on pp. 319-320 of The
Language of the Heart. While discussing Tradition 11 and personal anonymity,
Bill writes (starting at the bottom of page 319):

"A vast communications net now covers the earth, even to our remotest
reaches.
Granting all its huge public benefits, this limitless world forum is,
nevertheless a hunting ground for all those who would seek money, acclaim,
and
power at the expense of society in general. Here the forces of good and evil
are locked in struggle. All that is shoddy and destructive contest all that
is
best.

"Therefore nothing can matter more to the future welfare of AA than the
manner
in which we use this colossus of communication. Used unselfishly and well,
the
results can surpass our present imagination. Should we handle this great
instrument badly, we shall be shattered by the ego demands of our own
people--often with the best intention on their part. Against all this, the
sacrificial spirit of AA's anonymity at the top public level is literally
our
shield and our buckler. Here again we must be confident that love of AA, and
of
God, will carry the day."

The first two sentences of the second paragraph are the most often quoted
and
probably more often misquoted. I've been misquoting it for years as "Nothing
matters more to A.A.'s future welfare than the manner in which we use this
colossus of modern communication. Used unselfishly and well, it can produce
results surpassing our present imagination...." Fortunately the meaning
hasn't
changed, and if the medium under discussion has changed from TV or other
news or
communication networks to the Internet, the message is just as strong and
important.

Lou M.
Somerville, NJ

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++++Message 2376. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origins of 4th step column
format
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2005 4:30:00 PM

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Also reference V. Kitchen's "I Was A Pagan" where the OG Game of Truth was
laid
out in columns with similar subject content. When you see this format it is
extremely similar to the columns in the BB

Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:

In the OG book "For Sinners Only" it was an oral process to get at the root
of
the problem.

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++++Message 2377. . . . . . . . . . . . 13th stepping and "90-in-90"
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 1:19:00 PM

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There were two questions raised a couple of weeks ago, about "13th stepping"
and
"90 meetings in 90 days."

On Apr 25, 2005 "Julie" < zulie55@yahoo.com > asked about the term 13th
stepping: "When did AA people first start using this phrase to refer to men
AA
members hitting on new women in the program (and vice versa), pretending
that
they were going to 'help' the newcomer understand the program?"

Gilbert Gamboa < text164@yahoo.com > raised a similar question about the
phrase
"90 meetings in 90 days." He believes that this recommendation came into AA
teaching only in fairly recent years, and is a comparatively recent
innovation.

-----------------------------------

"Jan Baldwin" < jbaldwin@imbris.com > and billyk < billyk3@yahoo.com > were
also
involved in the discussion.

-----------------------------------

MODERATOR: I asked one of the good old-timers about this, Sgt. Bill S.
(Sonoma,
California), who got sober in 1948, and had a good deal of personal
experience
of good early AA in the New York City area (especially on Long Island), in
Akron, in Texas in the 1950's, and later in California (where he moved in
1966).
He was closely associated at various points with Mrs. Marty Mann, Sister
Ignatia, and Searcy, among other well-known early AA figures. This is taken
from
the two emails he wrote in response to my questions.

-----------------------------------

SGT. BILL S. < SAAA1948@aol.com >

Dear Glenn: We used to think that all the women who were either alcoholics
or
the wife of an alcoholic, were the enemy. I think the reason Al-Anon became
an
organization was because of the paranoia that existed among the members of
AA.

This morning has been wonderful for me. I have just joined the Pearl Harbor
Survivors and this morning I got a call from two members, one the president
of
the group. The first call started with, "Is this the Primo Kid?" Primo was
the
name of the beer in Honolulu, and when I pitched baseball on the Army Air
Corps
team in Hawaii before the Second World War began, the fans up in the stands
used
to shout when I came out to the pitcher's mound and call me the Primo Kid. I
almost collapsed when he identified himself. It was one of the men I used to
play baseball with and both he and the man who called later were members of
my
outfit. When I told the one I was in AA for 56 years and had written two
books
he said I am happy that you no longer drink but I am not surprised that you
wrote the books. Everyone thought that you were smart but a drunk. The
second
call was from another member of my Squadron who is now the president of the
Pearl Harbor group.

I must admit that I never heard the term "13th Stepping" until I moved to
California in 1966 and even then it was after that, in the 1980's, that I
first
heard the term used. However I am familiar with the basis for this slogan.
When
I first got sober in 1948, there was a lot of suspicion surrounding the
relationship between AA members and the spouses of the alcoholics.

Early on, it was suggested that men only sponsor men and women only sponsor
women. The basis for this was the suspicion that there was a lot of sexual
activity between alcoholic women and male AA members.

You are right on with your reference to the transference phenomenon, which
particularly affects the therapeutic relationship between a male
psychiatrist
and a female patient (and vice versa), but in fact will affect any
counseling
relationship, including AA sponsorship. The female patient begins to develop
romantic feelings toward the male psychiatrist because of the degree of
psychological intimacy involved (or vice versa with a female psychiatrist
and a
male patient). There is a tendency for some to put desire before honor.

I recall that there were very few females in my group in Valley Stream, New
York, when I first got sober, and those who did attend meetings were assumed
to
be loose. Dependents of alcoholics attended the meetings until Al-Anon was
formed and most of them became part of that group. (Many female alcoholics
attend Al-Anon meetings today and vice versa.)

I truly believe that Lois assisted in the formation of the first Al-Anon
group
because of Bill's lust.

I do not know the origin of the "13th Stepping" saying but it was after I
came
to California in 1966.

Also 90 meetings in 90 days was never advocated until treatment centers
sprang
up and recommended that amount of time to enhance recovery (also the need
for
cash for treating the alcoholic).

Because I was in the military during the earlier days, many things of an
historical significance in AA in the civilian sphere were unknown to me. I
am
sorry I cannot be more specific.

Love Bill

-----------------------------------

REFERENCES:

Sgt. Bill S., On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment
Program:
The Air Force Sergeant Who Beat Alcoholism and Taught Others to Do the Same
(2003).

Also http://hindsfoot.org/bsv02psy.html , http://hindsfoot.org/bsv01thr.html
,
http://hindsfoot.org/bswnorm.html , http://hindsfoot.org/kbs2.html ,
http://hindsfoot.org/kbs3.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2378. . . . . . . . . . . . Nancy Olsen
From: philip luppy . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 10:06:00 AM

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Nancy Olson; Hill Aide and Lobbyist

By Adam Bernstein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 15, 2005; Page B06

Nancy Moyer Olson, 75, who died of congestive heart failure March 25 at a
care
center in Roanoke, was a legislative aide to two Democratic U.S. senators
and
later became a lobbyist on trade issues. She also was a former actress and
recovering alcoholic who briefly aspired to be a nun.

Ms. Olson spent the past decade lecturing internationally about alcoholism;
starting a Web site about the history of Alcoholics Anonymous; and writing a
book, "With a Lot of Help From Our Friends" (2003), about her role working
with
Sen. Harold E. Hughes (D-Iowa), one of the first politicians to publicly
acknowledge his alcoholism.

Ms. Olson was born in Kingston, Pa., to an alcoholic father who later fell
to
his death from a hospital window. She served in the Women's Army Corps in
the
late 1940s in Panama and then briefly married a soldier, who brought her to
his
home in Chicago.

Bored as a housewife, she applied for a secretarial job and won a position
working for philosopher Mortimer J. Adler at the University of Chicago. She
was
insecure about her lack of formal education and was uneasy about being
called
"God's secretary" -- a reference to Adler's reputation.

She recalled frequent conversations with Adler, who tried to encourage her
by
giving her books to read. "Here, I want you to read this chapter," she
recalled
him telling her after one talk. "You will see that Aristotle agrees with
you."

As a young woman, she bore a vague resemblance to Grace Kelly and longed for
an
acting career. Adler helped her with a letter of introduction to study at
the
Pasadena Playhouse in California, but she had little luck impressing film
studios. "The big Hollywood producers," she once wrote, "never tumbled to my
charms."

Instead, she traveled the Caribbean with a British banker and began her
descent
into alcoholism. Having her "breakfast beer" one morning in 1965, she saw a
program about alcoholism and instantly saw herself reflected in the
testimonies
of those who similarly suffered from a need to drink.

"I had known for some time that I was an alcoholic, but I thought it was my
secondary problem," she wrote.

"I believed that I was insane, and that was why I drank too much and thus
had
become an alcoholic. (God knows I had been doing a lot of insane things.)"

She joined Alcoholics Anonymous and was doing volunteer work for the
Democratic
National Committee in Chicago in 1968 when she met Hughes, who was impressed
with her life story and invited her to Washington to join his staff. She
worked
for the special subcommittee on alcoholism and narcotics and played a key
role
in drafting the so-called Hughes Act, which established the National
Institute
on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.

She helped Hughes in his unofficial work on Capitol Hill as a counselor to
alcoholics.

After Hughes left political life to pursue the ministry, she joined the
staff of
Sen. Harrison A. "Pete" Williams Jr. (D-N.J.).

She also suffered a nervous breakdown and, long agnostic, converted to
Catholicism.

Discouraged by the 1980 Republican landslide election and feeling embattled
by
the liquor lobby, she entered the Visitation of Holy Mary, a cloistered
monastery in Georgetown, with the idea of becoming a nun. She was 51, and
various physical ailments, especially weakened legs, prevented her from
completing many of the conditions of sisterhood that required long periods
of
standing.

She resumed her political career as a legislative analyst and lobbyist until
her
retirement in 1995.

Her marriage to Everett Olson ended in divorce. Survivors include a sister,
Jean
Earl of Roanoke.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

FOR PHOTOS AND MORE DETAILS SEE:
<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html>
<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem2.html>
<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem3.html>
<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem4.html>

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++++Message 2379. . . . . . . . . . . . Success vs. Gloom-and-Doom
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2005 11:56:00 AM

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-------------------------------
[MODERATOR'S SUMMARY OF THE DATA GIVEN BELOW: 56% of those who stay three
months
are still active in AA at the end of a year. That first year is the hardest:
the retention rates dramatically improve for those who have earned their
one-year chip. The current U.S. population (U.S. Census Bureau) is 296
million,
with around 220 million over eighteen years of age. In the data given below,
the NIAAA estimates that roughly 8% of the U.S. population over age 18 abuse
alcohol (17.6 million out of 220 million), but that there are only 7.9
million
true alcoholics over eighteen years of age in the U.S., which is 3.6% of the
population over eighteen years of age. With roughly 1 million AA members,
that
means that around 12 to 13% of these genuine alcoholics (about one out of
eight)
is in AA at this point.]
-------------------------------

FROM <ny-aa@att.net>:

There is a tendency of some observers to offer a pessimistic view of A.A.
today.
This becomes the basis for advocating return to the practices of some time
in
the past. Often, they back this up with a misreading of one particular graph
in
a summary of the 1977 through 1989 Triennial Surveys.

"Percent of Those Coming to AA Within the First Year Who Have Remained the
Indicated Number of Months." It graphed the "Month" and "Dist"
(distribution)
columns here. Note the "Dist" column adds up to 100. It is NOT a retention
percentage. For every 100 people surveyed with under a year, 13% were in
their
2nd month and 9% were in their 4th month. The "New" column I added is scaled
to
show retention. The "3mo" column tracks retention after the usual
introductary
period when, presumably, only "real alcoholics" (about half) will stay.

Month Dist . New . 3mo
1 ... 19 ... 100
2 ... 13 .... 68
3 ... 10 .... 53
4 .... 9 .... 47 . 100 <=== Over 3 months
5 .... 8 .... 42 .. 89
6 .... 7 .... 42 .. 83
7 .... 7 .... 36 .. 77
8 .... 6 .... 34 .. 72
9 .... 6 .... 32 .. 68
10 ... 6 .... 30 .. 64
11 ... 6 .... 28 .. 60
12 ... 5 .... 26 .. 56

The Dist(1)=19 does NOT mean that "81% dropped out in a month." Dist(3)=10
does
NOT mean that "90% leave within three months." And Dist(12)=5 does NOT mean
that
"95 abandon active participation in AA inside of a year." What it does show
is
that 56% of those who stay three months are still active in A.A. at the end
of a
year. Other Survey results show substantially better retention rates after
the
first year. Here is a typical example of misinterpretation of the table.

> "Those of us who have survived in A.A. for a
> good many years know for a certainty the dire
> failure statistics of today -- statistics reported
> by A.A.'s own service structure:
> 81% of new members drop out in a month;
> 90% leave within three months; and
> 95% abandon the active participation in AA inside of a year."

That's just not true. Another misreading of statistics is to forget that not
everyone who shows up at an A.A. meeting is an alcoholic. And not everyone
with
"a drinking problem" is an alcoholic (yet) either. For example, in 2002 the
National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism said that there were 9.7
million "alcohol abusers" and 7.9 million "alcohol dependent people" over
age
eighteen. There are clear definitions for these two categories. Only the 7.9
million are what A.A. calls "real alcoholics." These NIAAA numbers are
misquoted
as:

> "And in America, there are less than a million
> AAs at any given time out of an estimated
> eighteen million alcoholics in all."

Eighteen million is the total of "real alcoholics" and "a certain type of
hard
drinker." Further, most alcoholics have never tried or even visited
Alcoholics
Anonymous and have never made any serious attempt at recovery through any
other
means. With that in mind, one million sober American AAs is rather
impressive.
It also shows the need to reach out and invite more alcoholics to try
Alcoholics
Anonymous. Let's hope the pessimistic message of gloom-and-doom doesn't
scare
away and discourage the rest of those who need help.

-------------------------------
[ADDITIONAL NOTE BY MODERATOR: In early AA, they often said that 50% of
those
(as they put it) "who made a serious effort" in AA got sober the first time
they
tried. Careful reading of the early documents and interviews with old timers
makes it clear that they were not counting those who came to a few meetings
but
then fizzled out when they gave their 50% success rate. When early groups
gave
their membership figures, they usually made a rough-and-ready but clear
distinction between the numbers of those at their weekly meetings who were
just
coming to a few meetings at that point and the numbers of those who were
much
more committed members. So early success rates were not actually all that
much
different from the present success rate. AA is still extraordinarily
effective
today, just as it was in the old days, particularly when we remember that
alcoholism has always been the third leading cause of death in the United
States
ever since the 1930's: a fifty percent remission rate for what is frequently
a
fatal disease is medically impressive by any standards.]
-------------------------------

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++++Message 2380. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"
From: Bruce Lallier . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 3:09:00 PM

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Hi Glen, I first remember hearing 90 & 90 in about 1973 so the person who
said
after treatment centers began popping up was just about correct. It was in
the
early 70's when insurance carriers started covering the costs when we saw
them
popping up like mushrooms in Conn. where I sobered up. High Watch in Kent
was
about the only pure treatment center for Alcoholism and was more of a
retreat at
that time. A lot af AA history is there and if memory serves me correctly
Lois
gave a lot of Bills writtings to the farm. I do know she gave a nice
painting of
him which is (was) hung in the room just off the chapel.
A great place but I believe they had to go more treatment to conform to
regulations dictated by the state. I knew Frank J. well as he was from my
area
prior to taking over at High Watch and for a while the state was trying to
close
the place (early 80's) I do remember conducting some of the morning Chapels
there and always felt honored to be speaking from where Bill so often did as
he
was a regular there and brought Ebby there on occasion. He and Marty and
some
otheres from NY actually were instrumental in getting it started in I
believe
1939.

Bruce L.

------------------------
GLENN C. (SOUTH BEND):
Exactly, just like you say, it was the health insurance providers who were
part
of the driving force here. Thank you for bringing that up, because it is
important to understanding what happened. Insurance carriers only began
funding
alcoholism rehabilitation after the passing of the Hughes Act at the
beginning
of the 1970's (our former moderator Nancy Olson played a major role in
helping
to get this act passed, and then implemented with proper funding, which was
equally vital). The spread of more and more alcoholism treatment facilities
for
people whose bills were paid by health insurance carriers continued into the
1980's and early 1990's. The insurance carriers then began shutting off the
funding, which caused more and more of the psychiatrically-oriented
alcoholism
treatment facilities to begin closing down, so that there are very few of
them
left today, compared to the numbers in existence during their hey-day. Nancy
Olson's book makes clear that psychiatrists who had their own theories about
how
to treat alcoholism were attempting to grab the government funds provided by
the
Hughes Act all through the 1970's, at the expense of AA interests, so this
is
not a new conflict. A good deal of Nancy's efforts from 1970-1980 were
devoted
to keeping (a) the psychiatrists and (b) those who were really interested
only
in drug addiction from taking control of all the U.S. government funding of
alcoholism treatment and diverting it to their own purposes.

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++++Message 2381. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"
From: Andrew W-S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 3:40:00 PM

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I don't know when the expression '13th-stepping' came in, but a lot of us,
including me, wish to God that the practice would die out!

Seriously, though, I also heard of the funeral of an AA member at which the
deceased was said to have 'taken the 13th step', which was to die sober and
move
on from this world. I have no idea how widespread that is.

Andrew
(in England)

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++++Message 2382. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 3:41:00 PM

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It may be coincidence, but the Oxford Group did have a policy of men
working with men and women working with women. This may have carried over
into
AA. As for using 13 for the number, it logically follows just as 19th Hole
suffices for the drinking that follows a golf game!
Mel Barger

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++++Message 2383. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The man hiding in a bar
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2005 2:01:00 PM

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Adam wrote, "Maybe tell me who the case was and who the prominent doctor was
who
referred the case to Dr. Silkworth."

----------------------------------
Fitz Mayo author of "Our Southern Friend."

Jim
----------------------------------
lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>

The man's name is Fitz Mayo, his story "Our Southern Friend" pg. 497 in the
3rd
edition.
----------------------------------
From: "Dick" <dikilee@yahoo.com>

John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo. See posts 2332 & 2333. Dick Spaedt

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++++Message 2384. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 3rd legacy voting procedure
origins
From: Roger Wheatley . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2005 2:35:00 PM

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Pass It On page 346 provides some insight into the purpose and how the 3rd
Legacy Procedure was born while developing the structure of our first
General
Service Conference. Perhaps someone knows who "suggested" this solution and
can
shed some more light on how they came to this brilliant solution to what
could
have been a divisive problem.

"Bill wanted the delegates to be truly representative of their areas, but he
also wanted to avoid the, "hotly contested close election, which nearly
always
left behind a large and discontented minority." The problem of how the
delegates
were to be elected was a perplexing one. The solution suggested was to
provide
for the submission of written ballots, and to require that any single
candidate
receive a two-thirds majority of the vote for election. In the event that
there
were several strong contenders and no single one received a two-thirds
majority,
the names of the front-runners could be placed in a hat and the winner
chosen by
lot."

RW

erstwhile_erratic_aa <aa101@bellsouth.net> wrote:
In a similiar request to the 4th step origins I asked. What about the
3rd legacy voting procedure. It is unique to AA but the recent voting
at the Vatican seems very similiar. Any ideas where Bill got this
format for voting?

Tom Hoban
Marietta, GA.

---------------------------------
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++++Message 2385. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origins of 4th step column
format
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2005 10:51:00 PM

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History Lovers may have a hard time finding "I Was a Pagan"
from 1934 that Mitch mentioned in their library or book store.
This may solve that problem.

http://www.stepstudy.org/downloads/pagan.pdf

Fortunately, one AA group has made the complete text available
on the internet. I think somebody else had this in his collection
but that site was taken down. Anyhow, this works. Thanks.

------ Original message --------
From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
Also reference V. Kitchen's "I Was A Pagan" where the OG Game of Truth was
laid
out in columns with similar subject content. When you see this format it is
extremely similar to the columns in the BB

--------------------------------
MODERATOR: The reference here I believe is to page 49 of "I Was a Pagan":

IN MY OLD LIFE

[1] I MOST LIKED:
Myself.
Liquor, tobacco and almost every other stimulant, narcotic and form of
self-indulgence.
Anything which gave me pleasure, possessions power, position and applause,
or
pumped up my self esteem.
To be left largely to myself
My wife—because of the comforting and complimentary way she treated me.

[2] I HATED MOST:
Poverty (for myself).
Prohibition.
Work.
People who disapproved or tried to interfere with me
Any betrayal of my inner thoughts or emotions.

IN MY NEW LIFE

[3] I MOST LIKE:
God.
Time alone with God. The fellowship of the living Jesus Christ.
The stimulation of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God’s guidance
Communion with others who are trying to lead the same kind of
Christ-centered
life and the witnessing to all of what
Christ has come to mean to me
My wife—because of the things God now enables us to do for each other

[4] I HATE MOST:
Sin.
Self, because “I” is the middle letter of SIN.
Sins that separate me from God.
Sins that separate me from people.
Anything that falls short of God’s plan for me.

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++++Message 2386. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: List of movies on A.A. and
alcoholism
From: Rickydotcom . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2005 11:44:00 PM

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[DeafAA@aol.com wrote: Hello: I am wondering if they do still have VHS or
DVD
for "Sarah T: Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic"? I can't find where I can
order
it.]

Try these two links:

http://www.5minutesonline.com/1D/SARAH.htm

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/search-handle-form/103-2404522-4258239

If the 2nd link doesn't wotk, go to Amazon.com and search under the "z
Shops"
tab.

Best wishes,
Rick B.
aka Rickydotcom
Hagerstown, Maryland

-----------------------
From: "Dick" <dikilee@yahoo.com> Thu May 5, 2005
I found two VHS and one DVD of this movie for sale on ebay this morning.
<http://ebay.com>

Dick Spaedt

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++++Message 2387. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: List of movies on A.A. and
alcoholism
From: Buck . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/6/2005 8:34:00 AM

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AA History Lovers,
You may want to consider "Under the Volcano" with Albert Finney for this
list.

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++++Message 2388. . . . . . . . . . . . Psychiatric Help ?
From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2005 9:52:00 PM

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Please could somebody tell me, if, at the time the Big Book was being
written did Bill W have anybody in the psychiatric field helping with
the composing of the Big Book.

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++++Message 2389. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"
From: Dean @ e-AA . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 5:18:00 PM

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The first mention of a thirteenth step may have been in the April 1947
Grapevine article by Bill W. entitled "Clubs in AA": "... we might think we
couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them as central AA
institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery program. ..."

In the August 1953 issue, in "Of Mountains and Molehills," there's a
different use of the term: "These select AA speakers speak in platitudes and
generalities, never bothering to go much into detail. They speak 'sweet
music' in a serious vein, never seeming to remember our Thirteenth Step of,
'Not taking yourself too darn seriously, and not forgetting your sense of
humor.'"

The first appearance in the Grapevine of the term using the meaning we
attach today seems to be in the title of a letter --"Thirteenth Step?" -- in
the September 1974 issue.

When I got to AA, the oldtimers around here (Monterey, California) had a
still different twist on it: They said that originally the thirteenth step
was meant to protect, or warn, people who were already sober. The new folks
(men or women) were "nuts" (as I was insane when I got to AA), and entering
relationships with new folks was not a good thing for one's serenity.

-- Dean Collins

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++++Message 2390. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"
From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 5:16:00 PM

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I managed to pull a few quotes from old Grapevines where these phrases were
used.

------------------------------

Thirteenth stepping

Grapevine, August 1953
"OF MOUNTAINS AND MOLEHILLS"
These select AA speakers speak in platitudes and generalities, never
bothering
to go much into detail. They speak "sweet music" in a serious vein, never
seeming to remember our Thirteenth Step of, "Not taking yourself too darn
seriously, and not forgetting your sense of humor."

Grapevine, September 1974
[letter] "'Thirteenth Step'?"
I've just come from one of my favorite AA meetings, and I have an old
familiar
feeling- resentment! Two new gals (young and attractive) were there. Do you
know, I had a hard time trying to talk with them, because the men in the
group
were surrounding them. I went through this same thing for a while, and
believe
me, it doesn't help the new gal. I don't hate men. In fact, I think they're
great! But may I please ask the men in the program to just give us AA gals a
chance to help the new, attractive women who come to AA for help? When I was
new, I thought the gals were wonderful, but some of the men really seemed
godlike to me. The hero worship bit just might cause some serious problems,
especially if either the new gal or the AA man or both are married. The
spouses
are usually pretty mixed up, sometimes fed up, and pretty well sick of it
all.
They just can't and won't take too well to any more complications. They
don't
need any more problems.

March 1984
"Looking for Love"
That was the beginning. I went to AA. But it was not a cure! When I was
three
months sober, I was two months pregnant - a direct result of
thirteenth-stepping. I didn't have alcohol in me now, but I was still
looking
for love in the wrong way. By the grace of God, I didn't have to live with
that
mistake, but I didn't learn from it,
either.

Grapevine, June 1985
"The Good Old Times"
"Together, Victor and the lady known as Lil started out to write the
'thirteenth
step,' long before the first twelve were ever thought of. What is more, they
say
it began in Dr. Bob's office on his examination table while he was at the
City
Club engaged in his sacrosanct Monday-night bridge game.

Grapevine, July 1988
"My Sponsor is Getting Better"
Another time, while the group was having coffee after a meeting, Mardie
started
talking about the thirteenth step. She didn't say anything directly to me,
but I
knew she meant it for me. "When these people try to fall in love and get
sober
at the same time, there's bound to be problems. I've seen it happen time
after
time." I gritted my teeth, thinking, "Now, she's judging me and I haven't
even
done anything yet. Easy for her to say since she's married."

--------------------------------------------

90 Meetings in 90 Days

Grapevine, July 1953
"Ninety Days Will Do It"
[focus is on staying sober in the program for 90 days - doesn't necessarily
mention 90 meetings in that time]

Grapevine, May 1971
[letter] "A plea for an open door"
A lot of my help when I first came to AA was given by members with ten,
fifteen,
or twenty years' sobriety. They said, "One day at a time, little gal. Take
it
easy. Ninety meetings in ninety days. Keep it simple." Last but not least:
"Call
us before you take that first drug or drink." They saved my life.

December 1973
"One-to-One"
Then came my fifteenth anniversary and dozens of cards from old friends and
new.
Before the meeting, the chairman called a girl to the front of the room to
receive her ninety-day pin. She said a few words, grateful for being there,
three months out of the jungle of active alcoholism. I recalled how
difficult
that first ninety days of sobriety had been for me, and how happy I had been
that I didn't have to drink! ...

April 1975
"Three Times I've Come Here"
My faith is strong, but not enough. Just as my first six-month pink cloud
when
coming into AA was unearned - except by not drinking-so, too, my new faith
is
unearned, a gift. I talk a good program. Act little. For three months, I cut
my
wrists at meetings, beat my breast about not being active. Put up warning
flares. Donald is going to get active! - when his ninety days are up. But I
sit
on my nether parts, do nothing. What kind of convert is this? Whining
sublimely
about faith and hope, he works not, neither does he reap. A fellow full of
strong words, glibly sincere, bloated with gratitude. A statue to Bill W.!

Grapevine, June 1978
"The Fast Learner"
After this meeting, a few people came over to me with advice such as "Take
the
cotton out of your ears and keep it in your mouth for a total of ninety
days"
(which I immediately recognized as "Shut up, dummy, and listen"). Others
told me
to keep on talking at the meetings, because only by opening up could I be
helped. Confusion!Which group should I please, and which should I offend?

Grapevine, February 1979
"The Day of the First Meeting"
Tonight, our group had the pleasure of presenting a ninety-day card, and the
recipient came forward to accept it from me, the secretary. I saw a very
attractive lady who had lost twenty pounds in ninety days, had a new,
stylish
hairdo, and was perfectly radiant. I choked up a bit as I handed the card to
a
lady who, ninety days ago on a cold winter morning, had bowed her head and
said,
"I'm an alcoholic and I need help."

Grapevine, October 1980
"Who's Responsible?"
For the next ninety days or so, Eddie was always there to take me to a
meeting.
I was scared, shaking, sometimes angry; but it didn't bother him. I learned
a
lesson from him that I used for many years: No matter how sick or shaky a
man
may be, take him to a meeting.

Grapevine, December 1981
"They Were Really Listening"
During the discussion period, I got to know them as individuals. There was a
well-dressed, well-spoken older man, who had graduated from the Bowery; a
truck
driver who'd just made his first ninety days; a nurse; a television reporter
who'd just gotten fired; a dese-dem-and dose guy who'd gone a few too many
...

Grapevine, May 1989
"The Bingo Card of Life"
Ninety meetings in ninety days is helpful advice for someone entering the
program of recovery. We may not be drinking but inside we are falling apart.
We
are dry but we are still alcoholic, still sick. Acceptance and recovery both
take time. For most of us, it took many years of practice to get here. Often
we
expect miracles overnight, but recovery is a gradual, day-by-day process.

Grapevine, September 1990
"To the Old-Timers of Tomorrow"
At that time we didn't have any place to meet except restaurants, hotel
lobbies,
and my home. We had only the Big Book and each other to attain and maintain
our
sobriety. We never heard of ninety meetings in ninety days. That would have
been
impossible because there was only one meeting a week in a hundred mile area.

Grapevine, November 1991
"Conscious Contact"
When I first joined AA I was an atheist and unable to pray. After attending
ninety meetings in ninety days, I knelt by my bed one morning and in tearful
frustration pounded with my fists and cried, "If you are up there, if there
is a
God, help me!" In the days to follow I tried to meditate and pray but I
really
didn't know how. Like many newcomers, the idea of meditation or prayer
seemed
too esoteric for me, something only priests or pastors could do. Gradually I
was
able to learn, through reading, and through much practice, to "let go and
let
God." But it took some doing!

Grapevine, May 1994
"It Works if You Work It"
I am not an old-timer. My sobriety is new and very precious to me. I have
almost
finished ninety meetings in ninety days. The first few days I dreaded going
to
the meetings. I put them on the level of an exercise class. You hate to go,
but
you go because you like the results.

Grapevine, January 1996
"Getting Stupid"
So AA's message has become watered down. For example, nowhere in our
literature
does it say anything about ninety meetings in ninety days, or that we have
to
learn to love ourselves. That's a detox message. Our literature, our
message,
talks about recovering one day at a time and getting out of selfcenteredness
in
order to recover. Nonalcoholics in AA is AA's fault because AA doesn't do
its
job in detoxes or in the courts to explain what we are.

Grapevine, August 1996
"Starting Over with Step One"
I left the third treatment center with a strong willingness to do whatever
AA
members told me to do. I went to ninety meetings in ninety days, I got a
sponsor, I worked the Twelve Steps to the best of my ability at the time. I
talked to God every morning and asked him to help me stay sober, and every
night
I thanked him for keeping me sober. Then I chaired meetings and got involved
in
Twelfth Step work. I was attending three meetings a week and finding
happiness
in sobriety.

Grapevine, February 1997
"Relocating Recovery"
By the time we reached ninety meetings in ninety days, I was in the psych
ward
at a prominent local rehab hospital. My system had gone into overload with
the
huge guilt trip of a totally negative inventory. But I was physically sober.
My
body was reeling and staggering from removing chemicals to which it was long
accustomed.

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++++Message 2391. . . . . . . . . . . . First 100 members
From: dinobb_dinobb . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2005 7:39:00 AM

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Of the stories at the back of the original manuscript I counted -- please
correct me -- 29 stories. From what I gather 17 died drunk. The ones that
stand
out are Bill R., Hank P., Ernie G. I know about stories in the pioneering
section -- Marty M. discontinued sobriety, etc.

Any facts concerning this stuff is greatly appreciated. I heard
Clancy I. of Venice CA make the assertion that many of the original
memebers died drunk.

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++++Message 2392. . . . . . . . . . . . I Was a Pagan
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 5:04:00 PM

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There are three listings for "I Was a Pagan" on eBay right now.

Items #6959438444, #6959720807, and #6960098301

There are also thirteen listed on Abe Books priced from $95 up.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 2393. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 6:21:00 PM

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The Mardie mentioned in "My Sponsor Got Better" is Mardi V. right here in
Red
Stick.

I don't know if this link will work but it's for the story
<http://tinyurl.com/bt3tx>

Tommy
=================

Thirteenth stepping

Grapevine, July 1988
"My Sponsor is Getting Better"
Another time, while the group was having coffee after a meeting, Mardie
started
talking about the thirteenth step. She didn't say anything directly to me,
but I
knew she meant it for me. "When these people try to fall in love and get
sober
at the same time, there's bound to be problems. I've seen it happen time
after
time." I gritted my teeth, thinking, "Now, she's judging me and I haven't
even
done anything yet. Easy for her to say since she's married."

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++++Message 2394. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 6:21:00 PM

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The first mention of a thirteenth step may have been in the April 1947
Grapevine article by Bill W. entitled "Clubs in AA": "... we might think we
couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them as central AA
institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery program. ..."

In the August 1953 issue, in "Of Mountains and Molehills," there's a
different use of the term: "These select AA speakers speak in platitudes and
generalities, never bothering to go much into detail. They speak 'sweet
music' in a serious vein, never seeming to remember our Thirteenth Step of,
'Not taking yourself too darn seriously, and not forgetting your sense of
humor.'"

The first appearance in the Grapevine of the term using the meaning we
attach today seems to be in the title of a letter --"Thirteenth Step?" -- in
the September 1974 issue.

When I got to AA, the oldtimers around here (Monterey, California) had a
still different twist on it: They said that originally the thirteenth step
was meant to protect, or warn, people who were already sober. The new folks
(men or women) were "nuts" (as I was insane when I got to AA), and entering
relationships with new folks was not a good thing for one's serenity.

-- Dean Collins

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2395. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90"
From: Gilbert Gamboa . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 6:49:00 PM

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Wow Thats not what i said,I said we must not pre-occupy with such Trash as-
"13
stepping, and 90 meetings and 90 days"..
in Fact the God Bless her soul Nancy O,told me personally that she first
started
hearing this in N.Y. AA around the early 70`s,a phrase she stated probally
came
from The "treatment Centers" as these were rules to follow after being
released
from treatment,again making it clear that in no way is it related to
AA...........unless you want to get really technical a Model airplane a
child
plays with is just like a B-52 bomber,only great differences are there..
Trust God ,Clean house and Help Others
Gilbert Gamboa

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++++Message 2396. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Psychiatric Help ?
From: Art Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2005 7:12:00 PM

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Hi Carl

During Feb/Mar 1939, multilith copies of the Big Book manuscript,
distributed
for review, were returned. Reader’s comments produced few alterations in
the
final text. A major change did occur at the suggestion of a “Dr Howard, a
well-known psychiatrist of Montclair, NJ” who recommended toning down the
use of
“musts” and changing them to “we ought” or “we should.” Dr
Silkworth (a
neurologist) and Dr Tiebout (a psychiatrist) offered similar advice. (re AA
Comes of Age [AACOA] pgs 167-168).

The only physician credited with contributing to the Big Book is Dr.
Silkworth.
He is also viewed by Bill W as a major contributor to the Steps (Language of
the
Heart pg 196). Reputedly one camp of NY members wanted the Steps to be more
“psychological” than “theological proposition” (re Not God pg 71).
Another major
influence on the Steps was William James (The Varieties of Religious
Experience)
who is often called the founding father of American psychology.

Dr Harry Tiebout is credited with being AA’s “first friend of
psychiatry” (re
AACOA pg 2). He did not become aware of AA until he received a multilith
copy of
the manuscript for review (re AACOA pg 310). He gave the copy to Marty Mann.

Although not mentioned as an influence, perhaps the grand daddy of them all
was
Dr Benjamin Rush (1746-1813) of Philadelphia, PA. He was a member of the
Continental Congress, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and
Surgeon
General of the Continental Army during the Revolution. He is often called
both
the father of American psychiatry and the father of the American temperance
movement. In 1784 Rush wrote a 36-page paper titled An Enquiry into the
Effects
of Ardent Spirits on the Human Body and Mind. It described habitual
drunkenness
as a “progressive and odious disease” and asserted that total abstinence
“suddenly and entirely” was the only effective treatment.
In 1810 Rush called for the creation of “Sober houses” where alcoholics
could be
confined and rehabilitated. It is a bit of irony that Dr Bob graduated from
Rush
University Medical School when he was doing some of the worst of his
drinking.

With a little allowance for rule #62, it seems confident there were far more
AA
members who were psychotic, rather than psychiatrists, involved in putting
the
Big Book together. They didn’t do too bad at all either.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2397. . . . . . . . . . . . The Six Steps in Bill W''s
handwriting
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2005 11:39:00 PM

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From: bikergaryg@aol.com Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:21pm

Folks

I bought a copy of this on e-bay and I wanted to share this with my friends.

It is summary of the early six-step version of the steps used in AA before
the
publication of the Big Book. It is written in Bill Wilson's handwriting and
signed by him. It is dated April 1953, three months before the July 1953
Grapevine article titled "A Fragment of History: Origin of the Twelve Steps"
(reproduced in The Language of the Heart, page 200), and uses very similar
though not identical wording.

There is a photo of my copy on the internet at
http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html
"Early Six-step Versions of the Steps."

Hope all is well.

Semper Gratus, Gary

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++++Message 2398. . . . . . . . . . . . International Convention Internet
Group
From: Jim K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/12/2005 9:32:00 AM

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There is a Yahoo! Group that is set up for members of the internet community
to
meet each other at the International Convention in Toronto. It is located
at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AA_International_Convention

A coffee hour is being set up, tee shirts being printed - a nice way to meet
some of the people whose emails/posts you have been reading.

Jim

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++++Message 2399. . . . . . . . . . . . 90 in 90
From: J. Carey Thomas . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/12/2005 9:55:00 AM

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I have heard from several sources that the Salvation Army took on
"drunks" for a ninety-day commitment to their program of work, daily
meetings and "salvation." So far the sources cited in this forum
have been "treatment centers" which typically milk clients for thirty
(28) days, as that is the usual insurance coverage. Where did
"Ninety Days" come from?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------
Archivist - Area 15

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++++Message 2400. . . . . . . . . . . . Sotheby''s manuscript
From: ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/12/2005 1:58:00
PM

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Hi group,
Many of us recall the $1.56 milion paid last June for the final Feb. 1939
working draft of the Big Book, with its accepted bid telephoned in to
Sotheby's
from California.
What's become of the archival item and its buyer?
Rick T. Illinois

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++++Message 2401. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Lois drive the motorcycle?
From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2005 12:33:00 PM

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"We gave up our positions and off we roared on a motorcycle, the sidecar
stuffed
with tent, blankets, a change of clothes, and three huge volumes of a
financial
reference service. Our friends thought a lunacy commission should be
appointed.
"
-- Alcoholics Anonymous P. 2-3

I've heard the Lois actually did much of the driving of the motorcycle
during
their adventures across the east coast, is this documented anywhere, does
anyone
know???

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++++Message 2402. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First 100 members
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2005 5:51:00 AM

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From: dinobb_dinobb
<<I heard Clancy I. of Venice CA make the assertion that many of the
original
memebers died drunk.>>

From: "Gallery" <gallery5@mindspring.com> Date: Thu May 12, 2005
<<I just listened to Clancy today: a tape called "Our Primary Purpose."
Don't
know the date or place but I would guess it to be from the late 80's or
early
90's and he said that "many of the original members died drunk." I was going
to
post that same question myself. I know the statistics in the Foreward don't
match with that (50%, then 25% come back - thus 75%).>>
Rotax Steve, Nangi namaj perez

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net> Date: Fri May 13, 2005
This is true, many of the 1st Edition Big Book story authors did not stay
sober.
The earliest members learned a harsh lesson about recovery from alcoholism
that
is a lesson to us all - it's an Oxford Group term called "Continuance" (the
last
of the five C's). What they learned from their own experience was that they
don't just do the practical program of recovery once & then rest on their
laurels (past achievements). We don't awaken spiritually & then this initial
awakening carries us for the rest of our lives. They learned this was not
enough. We need to awaken spiritually & then continue to deepen & broaden
our
spiritual life through work & self-sacrifice for others. The spiritual
experience of a year ago will not keep us sober today, just as the drink we
had
last week will not keep us drunk today. We need to grow in spiritual
understanding & effectiveness by staying involved in all three parts of AA
solution throughout our lives - Recovery (which is the working & re-working
of
all 12 Steps), Unity (AA meetings & interacting with other AAs), & Service
(this
includes inside our fellowship as well as outside our
fellowship, expecting nothing in return). This 3-part solution is found in
our
Circle & Triangle. This is a way of life, a design for living that works in
rough going. I have NEVER known ANYONE who was CURRENTLY involved in ALL
three
parts of AAs solution on an ongoing basis who EVER went back to drinking.
Thanks for your important question. Take it easy & God bless!
Just
Love,
Barefoot
Bill

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++++Message 2403. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Lois drive the motorcycle?
From: Art B . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2005 11:31:00 PM

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THE QUESTION WAS:

I've heard that Lois actually did much of the driving of the motorcycle
during
their adventures across the east coast. Is this documented anywhere, does
anyone
know???

---------------------------------

"Art B" <artb@netwiz.net>
Dear Lovers,

I love the comments about AA, and want to help on the Al-Anon family side.
On
page 39 of "Lois Remembers," Chapter 4, entitled "Two motorcycle hoboes." "
As I
sat in the driver's seat and turned on the gas, the sense of power - somehow
mine, not the machine's - was tremendous."

Lois wrote her memoir after Bill's death. He didn't edit what she wrote
(:>))
and it was printed in 1979. Copies are still available at Al-Anon meetings
and
the Al-Anon world service office.

Sincerely, Art B., California

(Same reference also from "Meggie" <meggie1270@wideopenwest.com>)

---------------------------------

khemex@comcast.net

The book, "Diary of two motorcycle Hobo's" Written by Bill and Lois Wilson
1925-27 during their two year trip has numerous references to the fact that
Lois
in fact did much of the driving, reason given that Bill would br reading
reference material while researching their next company to investigate. That
little book is just a wealth of historical background into Bill and Lois's
lives
before recovery entered their family. I believe this book is still in print
and
readily available. I hope this helps.
Gerry W.

(Same reference also from Greg Merkel <gregandkathy2@usfamily.net>)

---------------------------------

FROM "VERLIN:)"
See the photograph of Bill and Lois on the motorcycle at
http://www.aabbsg.de/aahistoryphotos/page06.html and also the text
underneath:

"Bill and Lois went scouting investments during the mid-1920's on their
Harley
Davidson. Lois often remarked that Bill usually let Lois drive while he sat
in
the side car. She said Bill preferred her doing the driving. Lois was really
the
Harley rider but Bill showed off here."

---------------------------------

"Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
Lois told me that Bill preferred riding in the sidecar and she did most of
the
driving.

---------------------------------

FROM ARTHUR SHEERIN:

YES. In Lois’ diary during the motorcycle trips (which she published) she
says
for example:

PART I
New Poughkeepsie, N.Y.
Thurs., April 16, 1925
"It is cold in April riding a motorcycle without a windshield, but breathing
in
the ozone as we whiz along is most invigorating! When sitting on the
driver's
seat and turning on the gas I feel as if the whole world were mine. The
sense of
power, somehow not the machine's but mine, is tremendous."

---------------------------------

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++++Message 2404. . . . . . . . . . . . Marty Mann, "Counselling the
Alcoholic"
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2005 1:34:00 AM

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Counselling the Alcoholic
Mrs. Marty Mann
Executive Director
National Council on Alcoholism, New York

The Blue Book, Vol. XVIII, 1966
Hollywood-by-the-Sea, Florida

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
I like the title of the talk assigned me, viz., "Counselling the Alcoholic."
I am not a counsellor. My experience in working directly with alcoholics
came through membership in AA. I have the honor of being the first woman who
made it in AA, and as that was 27 years ago this month, I have been around a
long time. I have done a great deal of 12th step work. In that sense it
could be said that I have counselled alcoholics. I think that is what one
does in 12th step work. And I think that is where one learns the two most
vital points in reaching and helping the alcoholic. These are what I want to
talk to you about.
I ought perhaps to address my remarks primarily to those who have not had
the indoctrination, the induction, into the field of counselling the
alcoholic that AA members automatically get.

Therefore, the first point I want to make is that, in my opinion, the first
requirement for successful counselling of the alcoholic is the correct
attitude of the person doing the counselling toward the alcoholic. There are
many highly qualified people in the field of counselling with all kinds of
degrees and many years of experience, but they can't work with alcoholics. I
think that very often they are unaware of the reason why they can't work
with alcoholics. As far as they know consciously they are sympathetic. They
recognize that these people are ill; in fact, they repeat happily the basic
statement of NCA that alcoholism is a disease. But actually they have given
only lip service to that concept. Intellectually they have accepted it —
intellectually only — and I would remind you as priests — you know this
better than I — that human beings do not act on their intellectual
beliefs.
They act on their feelings; they act on the beliefs that are in their hearts
rather than in their heads. And if they do not deeply believe that
alcoholism is an illness, that these are sick people, in their hearts, then
they are ineffective in dealing with alcoholics.

The sad part about this is that far too many people do not recognize this
division within themselves. They are unaware that their disbelief runs deep,
sometimes so deep that they can't put their finger on it. It is a
conditioning that they probably received before they were six years old (and
the psychiatrists tell us that is crucial) that they imbibed almost with
their mother's milk, and at their mother's knee, and by osmosis, because of
the society in which we all grew up, acquired the old attitudes that
alcoholism is purely a sin, that this is a moral question, wholly and
completely. You see, nobody in the field of alcoholism denies that there are
tremendous moral implications in alcoholism, because of the behavior that it
induces and also because of the thinking that develops from continued
ingestion of alcohol. In AA we call it stinkin' thinkin'. It can be very far
from any of our ideals about morals and virtues and faith. All of these
things are true. But this is not what I am talking about.

I am talking about all the old-fashioned concepts with which all of us who
are adults grew up, whether we remember them or not: that alcoholics were
primarily some kind of moral delinquent, moral leper (excepting that they
are trying to get that "leper" out of our thinking, too, and call it by its
proper name); that these were people who, if they chose, could be different;
that they were deliberately this way, that they had no regard for anyone but
themselves. In fact, I have heard wives of alcoholics who said, "Oh, yes, I
know he is sick and all that, but why does he do this to me? Why does he
behave this way? Doesn't he love me? Doesn't he care about his family?"

Well, of course he does. He is in the grip of something that goes beyond his
power to control. He has lost control over drinking, and because of this, he
has lost control over his behavior.

Actually, non-alcoholics, if they get drunk, lose control over their
behavior. They can behave just as badly as the alcoholic. The main
difference is that they don't do it consistently over and over again with
increasingly frequency over many years.

Who is an Alcoholic?

We have a definition at NCAA that we use, that we think is a pretty good
working definition, and it developed right out of the experiences of AA, as
to who is and who isn't an alcoholic.

We say the alcoholic is someone whose drinking causes a continuing problem
in any department of his or her life. The assumption is that the person who
drinks too much on occasions, if it develops into a problem, will not want
the problem and will, therefore, take action about it because of the
problem. They either cut down their drinking, or they will cut it out for a
while. The alcoholic would like to do the same thing, but the alcoholic is
totally unable; it is impossible for the alcoholic to cut down on his or her
drinking. This is the nature of alcoholism.

In fact, it is the nature of the test that also grew out of AA's
experiences, and which I incorporated in my book. I don't believe any true
alcoholic can pass this test: the limiting of drinks to not more than three
on any drinking occasion, even if it is daily, over a six-month period.
Every alcoholic would love to be able to do this. I have never heard of a
real alcoholic who could pass that test.

Actually, in my original Primer, I had three months, and there were a
handful who managed to pass it. They didn't say how awful it was, and how
uncomfortable it was. And in the book I point out that this should be a
comfortable process. It should be comfortable to limit your drinks. You may
not like it, you may be on many occasions with people who are drinking too
much, and you would like to go on, but if you are taking this test, if you
are attempting to find out whether you have alcoholism or not, you will be
more comfortable not drinking more than your three because you want to pass
the test.

In other words, it is a possible thing for a non-alcoholic to do. It is not
a possible thing for an alcoholic to do. That is why it is a continuing
problem that is caused by drinking.

We also make a point of that last half, "in any department of his or her
life." You know AA has had a phrase which has proven very useful in AA, but
has been widely misinterpreted outside of AA, and even within, by some
people — hitting bottom.

The general picture in the non-alcoholic world in which we live, of
alcoholics hitting bottom, is literally that they instantly conceive of
somebody who is in the gutter, who has lost everything, lost everything
materially, intellectually, morally, has just lost everything — this is
hitting bottom.

Well, actually in the very early days of AA, that was about right. Certainly
when I went in, and there were just a handful of us, nobody had a dime; we
had all lost everything materially. Nobody had much of anything else. A few
still had their wives, but most didn't. And only one had her husband, I
being that one. The second woman did not have a husband. The third one still
had her husband, and this was a miracle — we didn't believe it — because
while wives sometimes stick to the alcoholic, husbands rarely do.

Younger People in AA

I firmly believe that with the increasing education about alcoholism,
increasing understanding of it, increasing acceptance of it as the illness
it is, people are coming for help at earlier and earlier stages of their
problems. It is not unusual to go to an AA meeting, particularly in a big
city, and find everybody there looking to me like infants. Now, I recognize
that is partly because of my own increasing age, for people look younger
every year, I find. But it is true that there are a very large number of
people in AA, all across the country, who are in their 20's today. This was
not true in the beginning. And these people have hit a kind of bottom that
is certainly totally unlike this general picture.

I think we have to recognize this in counselling the alcoholic — that this
bottom is a purely personal thing. A person may hit bottom because of his
own thinking on the subject, because of what he has learned, because of the
fact he has recognized what is ahead of him. Just enough has happened to
make him see that the pattern fits, and he has read about it, or listened to
someone who knows telling him about it. He sees what lies ahead, and he
doesn't want to go that road. And nobody would, if he had a choice.

Today he has a choice. There are things he can do. There are places he can
go; there are people that he can talk to, and he need not yield to, he is
not bound hand and foot to the inevitable progress of alcoholism. He can
break the chains. He can become free. It is very satisfying to me, to
realize how many young people are preferring to be free once they learn what
these chains are like.

Now "bottom" may not have shown on the outside at all. He may not have lost
anything. He may never have lost a job. He may not have lost his family or
even had the threat of losing his family. He may be materially well off, but
inside, as he recognizes his condition, and what it means, and where it will
lead, he hits a kind of emotional bottom. He hits bottom where it counts, in
the feelings. Alcoholics aren't any different from anybody else.

I like to tell my fellow alcoholics, remind them, we are people just like
anyone else. We have the same equipment that other people have. We have a
mind, we have an intellect, we have feelings — sometimes I think that is
the
one area where we may be a little different — perhaps our feelings are
more
acute, but I am not certain whether that antedated the ingestion of alcohol
or whether alcohol watered those feelings, like watering a garden. And they
became more acute and bigger and more visible than other people's.

We have a soul. I firmly believe every human being does, no matter what his
actions are, or what terrible things he may have done. We have all the
equipment of everybody else. We are people and, therefore, we share a lot of
the failings of the human race. I don't think alcoholics are unusually blind
to alcoholism. Everybody is blind to alcoholism. They are sharing what
everybody else has.

Remember, they were brought up the same way; they were also brought up under
the myths and misconceptions and misapprehensions that we all had about
alcoholism a quarter of a century ago. This is perhaps one reason why it is
becoming easier to reach young people. They didn't grow up in that same
atmosphere. Things had already begun to change somewhat.

The Skid Row Derelict

For instance, the stereotyped picture of the alcoholic that we who are
adults, middle aged if you like, grew up with was that of the skid row bum.

Now, the National Council on Alcoholism is very much interested in the skid
row derelict, but we have deliberately stayed away from getting too deeply
involved in this area of alcoholism because we were so determined to break
this stereotyped picture that this was the alcoholic, that there wasn't
anything else. You see, it is easy for people to accept this, because if
that is the alcoholic, it can't be me, or my wife, or my children, or my
family, or my friends, because we are not skid row bums.

It lets people off. It is a lovely way to get involved and yet to exclude
being involved in those who are close to you, in your own parishes if you
are a pastor, in your own colleges, in your own group of friends.

Actually the skid row problem is a severe one in this country, and yet it
represents only a tiny percentage of our total alcoholic population.

Over the last several years many of us have sat down together and worried
about the matter of statistics for the field of alcoholism. And let's be
honest, we don't have any. We just don't have any statistics that are really
valid. We only have estimates, but all of us felt that it could not be the
same number as had been arrived at for the year 1956. And that figure of 5
million was based on 1956 statistics, using the Jellinek formula to arrive
at an estimate of the number of alcoholics.

We all recognized that 10 years later, for one thing, the population had
increased enormously. This meant that the number of drinkers had increased,
because the proportion of Americans who drink has been going up. Since 1956
it has risen perceptibly, and this meant that since there were more
drinkers, there were undoubtedly more people with alcoholism. And so we
worked out a formula and we arrived at a figure for 1965 of 6½ million
alcoholics. And I may say, that it is possible to arrive at that figure for
1965 in quite a large variety of ways. We tried a good many of them, and
always came out with roughly the same answer. And so, it was decided that
the National Council and its affiliates would adopt that figure. We also
circulated the statement to all of the state programs on alcoholism. And
they were delighted to have it, because they had been feeling just as
uncomfortable as we had about using the same figure for ten years in the
face of what everyone knew to be a difference in the number of people, and
the number of drinkers, and, therefore, the number of alcoholics.

To return to this attitude business, I think it is crucial, if you are going
to reach the alcoholic. I have often said that alcoholics are like children
and dogs. They feel what you feel. They don't hear what you say. You can
approach an alcoholic with an absolutely correct textbook speech. Everything
you say will be exactly right, right down the line, but what the alcoholic
is listening for is how you feel toward him. Is there a hint of hostility, a
hint of contempt? Remember, most alcoholics have had considerable rejection
in their lives, considerable misunderstanding around them. They feel
rejected. Usually by the time they get to you who are counselling them, they
feel rejected indeed. They are looking for more rejection in you, and you
can't conceal it if it is there somewhere. You may not know it yourself, but
the alcoholics will know it. They will pick it up every time, and they just
won't be back. You will have lost them. This may set them back years,
because if they have arrived at the point of going to see anyone,
particularly their pastor, this is a big step forward. It can be a
tremendously important thing that they should make such an effort, that they
should make such a contact, that they should go to somebody, even though
they may be bringing you a lot of lies.

The Alcoholic and Sanity

Here again I think we need a little correction of some of our thinking on
this. In the first place, I don't think the alcoholic tells lies for anybody
else. I think the alcoholic tells lies for his own sake. I think that deep
in the heart of the person who has lost control over drinking, however early
it is, there is a real terror that he has lost his mind, that he is truly
insane. And I don't mean in the temporary sense that occurs with deep
intoxication, which all of us who are alcoholics know all too well. No, I
think here they are so terrified that they have really lost their minds that
they try to explain to themselves why this keeps happening. They will go to
incredible lengths to make an explanation.

I think that the lies are more of an explanation. I don't like the word
"rationalization" because that implies a willful and deliberate thing, and I
don't really believe that it is often that. It is a frantic effort to
reassure themselves.

Obviously if they can get other people to believe it, this bolsters their
own belief that they are all right, that this terrible thing is not
happening to them, that it isn't that bad.

I also think that on certain occasions they tell lies because other people
expect them to, and I believe most people do expect this.

We had our annual meeting in New York last week, and a research project was
reported on. It was a follow-up study of alcoholics from the State Hospital
in Maryland. They wanted to know, among other things, whether the histories
the alcoholics gave of themselves when they came in — they weren't all
voluntary; some were committed — bore any relation to the truth. And they
found to their amazement that the alcoholics were highly reliable, that in
most cases what they told about themselves and their past and what had
happened to them, was right; they had told the truth.

I think we can get hung up on this lying bit, and I think, furthermore, that
it affects the attitude of the person who is trying to help. And if it
affects the attitude of the person who is trying to help, it affects the
attitude of the person who is to be helped. This is another thing that we
are apt to forget, and that I think is crucial in counselling. You know that
most of us spend 90% of our time reacting to other people. Oh, we do a
certain amount of initiation, a certain amount of acting which is entirely
our own and bears no relation to other people, but a great deal of our time
we are reacting to other people. Stop and think about it, and you will see
what I mean. This is also true of the alcoholic, who after all is a human,
remember. He is a member of the human race, even if he doesn't think he is,
and even if some people in the human race don't think that he is or don't
think he ought to be anyway. And he will react to everything that you say
and do.

Your job, when you are counselling, is to see that his reactions are
positive and constructive, that you do not frighten him to death, that you
do not talk down to him from the mountain top. And I think it is
particularly hard for the clergyman. Remember that in everybody's mind, and
certainly in our country, which is supposed to be a Godly country (we do
have "In God we Trust" on all our coins, you know; it is a motto of these
United States), the clergyman is somebody up there. The clergyman is the man
of God; the clergyman is special; the clergyman is holy; the clergyman is
good. And here is this individual who usually feels less than the dirt
beneath anybody's feet. Filled with self-misgiving, self-hate, self-fear, he
is going to the symbol of good and God. He expects to be talked down to from
the mountain top. He expects this person really to feel too good to want him
around and, all too often, that is just what the clergyman feels.

Understanding is Important

Now the alcoholic is waiting for this; so even the tiniest tinge of
preaching down from a mountain top to this poor little man down in the abyss
is magnified in that individual's reactions into a real barrier that he can
not overcome. He can't give, he can't talk, he can't feel free, he can't let
himself be helped.

I am not saying, although I do think this plays a part, that it is necessary
to be an alcoholic to have the right attitude towards another alcoholic, but
it sure helps. The person who has been through it knows perfectly well he is
not up on a mountain top, and can reassure the alcoholic pretty quickly that
he was right down in that abyss too. And he knows just what it feels like,
and he got just as dirty, and he can do it in a way that is believed,
believed here in the heart, not just up here in the head.

I do not believe that only alcoholics can do this, because I have known
professional people who could do it equally well. I myself am the product of
one. I don't know whether this Conference ever heard Dr. Harry Tiebout
speak. If you didn't, I am sorry, because he died two weeks ago, and I think
he is one of the greatest losses to this field since Dr. E.M. Jellinek left
us.

Dr. Tiebout happened to be my psychiatrist. He is the man who forced me into
AA. He is the man who understood AA before I did, and brought me to a
recognition and an understanding and an acceptance of it. And here was a man
whom I had been looking down my nose at for a good year while I was under
treatment, because he didn't like to drink. I didn't see how he could expect
to talk to me.

In fact, I told him once that I just thought he was an old spoil sport. He
didn't like it, so he didn't want anybody else to enjoy it. This man had a
real understanding of the alcoholic. He could talk to the alcoholic in terms
the alcoholic could hear and could accept. And he was not alone. There are
many people across the country, and many of them are the clergy of many
denominations.

Although I must say in my travels, which are extensive, and my knowledge of
what is going on in many communities around the country, it is frequently a
Catholic priest who is the one who is the warm wise counsellor for many
alcoholics in that area, and not necessarily, by any means, an alcoholic
priest.

So, I do believe that this attitude is possible. And I personally think it
should be possible for a Christian, for a man of God, who should have
learned something about humility, about caring for others, his flock, and
all mankind in his flock. So I feel very strongly that the clergy are a
tremendously important group in dealing with alcoholism, because I think,
very often, the family will go first to their pastor when there is trouble
at home. It may not be the alcoholic himself or herself who goes first, but
if the situation is handled right, and if the family can learn a little
about what alcoholism is, and about this business of the alcoholic reacting
to behavior, the thinking and words of others, then the situation can be
changed to the point where the alcoholic himself or herself will go.

And this is when it becomes crucial how the counsellor, be he
clergyman or not, handles the situation. The matter of attitude is
absolutely basic. If you don't have this, then it doesn't matter how many
techniques you use, they aren't going to work. You have not been able to
establish contact; you have not been able to communicate; you have not been
able to establish rapport, and until those are established, it doesn't
matter what else you do.

Let me tell you one thing that I think was a great contribution. A good many
years ago at one of the refresher courses at Yale, I was spending a lot of
time with Father Ray Kennedy. He was also there at the refresher course, and
he was very much excited. "You know," he said, "I have discovered something
that I think may be my major contribution to the field of alcoholism. And I
want to tell you about it."

It seems that in Syracuse there was a very wealthy Catholic family where the
wife and mother was an alcoholic, a pretty bad one. There was plenty of
money there, and there was a great deal of recognition of the stigma,
because this was a socially prominent family. So she was constantly being
shipped away to high priced sanatariums, or high priced doctors somewhere
else; she would come back and be all right for a while, and then she would
go back to drinking.

She would never admit that drinking was her problem. She was always very
nervous, having a nervous breakdown, or something else. In other words, she
was doing this so-called lying that is so much talked about in alcoholics.
Eventually, the husband and father went to Father Kennedy and he said, "You
know, she has tremendous respect for you." He was a professor in LeMoyne
College there and a man of considerable stature. "Would you come and talk to
her."

So Father Kennedy went over to talk to this woman. And she launched into her
usual series of denials that she had a problem with drinking, saying that
that wasn't it, it was a lot of other things, and he got a little
exasperated since he was getting nowhere fast. Then he said, "Why do you
have so much difficulty in admitting that you have alcoholism?"

She said, "What did you say?"

He said, "Why do you have so much difficulty admitting that you have
alcoholism?"

"I have alcoholism?" she said. "Why didn't somebody tell me?"

Father Kennedy is a Jesuit, as you all know, and they are pretty astute in
the convolutions of the human mind, and he recognized something immediately.
If you say to somebody you are an alcoholic, you are pointing the finger of
blame, saying, "You did it." If you say to somebody, "You have alcoholism,"
this could have come up from behind and grabbed them when they weren't
looking. They didn't necessarily do it to themselves.

And he felt that where you could remove that kind of guilt, you open the
door to constructive help.

That is precisely what happened with this woman. She got well. She joined AA
and recovered. And he said, "I believe this may be my contribution. I would
like to suggest that the National Council, in speaking and writing, adopt
this way of talking. Instead of saying there are so many alcoholics, say
there are so many people with alcoholism, or so many Americans with
alcoholism. Instead of saying someone is becoming an alcoholic, say someone
is developing alcoholism. You say it is a disease, why don't you begin using
the same terminology you use about other diseases?"

You don't automatically say one is a cardiac. You say one has heart disease.
And this is true of all illnesses.

We have attempted to do this in the 10 years or so since Father Kennedy made
this suggestion, and I believe that it has had an impact. I believe that it
has enabled a lot of people to get to AA. As he said, "It lets them save
face in their own minds." And I know perfectly well that one of the barriers
to successful helping of the alcoholic is the load of guilt that the
alcoholic is carrying.

This is even truer with some groups than others. It has been my experience,
and I have talked with a lot of you, that the priest who develops alcoholism
has a bigger load of guilt than anyone else. And it often can be an
effective barrier against help.

I think that anything that we can do to lift the load of guilt, since it is
a barrier to recovery, we should do, and I think that much can be done in
the counselling session to lift it.

The Alcoholic Suffers

We don't have to say that everything you did while you were drunk is just
dandy. It wasn't. And the alcoholic knows that really better than anyone
else.

The alcoholic has suffered — and this is something that many people don't
realize — more intensely from remorse and shame than anybody on the
outside
can ever imagine. We don't need to hammer them over the head with guilt.
They can create more than outsiders ever dreamed of. Their burden of guilt
is greater than any outsider will ever realize, and it is our job, if we are
counselling, if we are trying to help, to remove any possible barriers to
recovery.

The second thing that I want to talk about today is something that was
brought to my attention a good many years ago, when I had a young man
working for me whose name was Denis McGenty. I don't have to tell you he was
a Catholic. And he was quite a guy. He was a member of AA, and he was a real
artist with the words. He was a spellbinder. Denis was a sociologist. But
his drinking had interfered and he never got his Ph.D. And he began talking
about it, and thinking about it while he was working for me. One day he was
discussing various subjects that he might take for his doctoral
dissertation, and he said, "You know, I have got a wild idea that I would
really like to try. I think most alcoholics are saints manqué. They are
people who have all the qualities and qualifications for becoming saintly
and somehow it gets misdirected. And it is one reason that they get caught
in this toil, this vicious circle that they go around and around in. I
believe that most alcoholics of whatever denomination have been seeking God
in their own way through their drinking. In fact, though they have taken the
path that is leading them away from Him, that isn't what they had in mind."

And, indeed, it is sometimes true that an episode of drunkenness can be a
startling experience just like an experience with LSD, which can even
resemble a spiritual experience.

As a matter of fact, many years ago, and this was after Denis and I had been
discussing this idea, I read an issue of a magazine that a friend in
California sent to me called "Vedanta." In it was an article by Aldous
Huxley entitled "Transcending Down." He talked about mankind's efforts over
the thousands of years to find outside means for transcending, for achieving
a spiritual experience, for achieving a higher consciousness. We know of
many tribes in many parts of the world that use various drugs for this
purpose. And some have used alcohol for this purpose.

It is not impossible that the excessive use of alcohol has some kind of
relationship to this deep-seated search for God, for a feeling of God, not
just an intellectual acceptance of God.

Now I am saying this on purpose because I believe there is something true in
this, and I want you all to realize something that most of you probably
know. The alcoholic is frequently characterized as a dependent person, an
individual who must have something to lean on. You have heard reference made
to the glass crutch. That is one of the best descriptions of alcohol as
something to lean on, a glass crutch that can shatter, that has no real
strength, that is fragile. Alcoholics are using it as a crutch; they are
leaning on it. And very often when they go to someone for help, they become
extremely dependent on that individual for at least a period of time.

I heard a psychiatric social worker, who was a really good one and very
effective with alcoholics, describe it when somebody complained to her at a
professional meeting that she let her patients stay dependent too long. "We
certainly do. We take their hands when they come in. We hold their hands,
and when we let go, we let go finger by finger."

Give the Alcoholic Time

It takes time for the alcoholic to be independent again, to learn not to be
dependent on anything that comes his way on which he or she can lean.

Now this dependence, this leaning toward dependence, if you like, (and I am
not certain that it is confined to alcoholics, I think this is true perhaps
of mankind) can be used constructively. The goal of therapy in my opinion,
and it certainly is the goal in AA and it would be your goal as priests, is
to make these people that come to you God-dependent. When the alcholic comes
to AA, the God business, as you frequently hear it referred to in AA
meetings, is not crammed down his or her throat, at least not usually.
Sometimes it is and in some places it is not. But very often the resistance
is so great that it is again a hurdle to recovery which the alcoholic might
not be able to get over. So the newcomer is asked merely to keep an open
mind about spiritual matters, about God; to listen, to stay sober, to do
such things as he can within the AA program. And if he keeps an open mind,
we know full well that he will become God-dependent, because that is what AA
is.

AA is a way of becoming God-dependent. Successful AAs are God-dependent.

If the clergyman who is counselling alcoholics can't see that this is indeed
part of his business and can't borrow some of the techniques that have
brought the active alcoholic into sober God-dependence, then he isn't a very
good clergyman.

I do agree that not every one, merely because his collar is turned around,
is automatically a good counsellor for alcoholism, any more than a
psychiatrist, because he has a degree in psychiatry is a good therapist for
alcoholics. Some are, some aren't. Not every member of AA is equally good at
12th step work. Some people come into AA and they try awfully hard, but that
is just not their work; it makes them unhappy and uncomfortable, and they
don't do a good job. You often find them doing other things in AA, being
active around the clubhouse, making talks, functioning as a member of AA,
yet not spending too much time on 12th step work, because they learned they
did not have the touch, they didn't have the real ability. They have all
done it, they had to do it to find out, but I don't think people should
persist in an area where they don't take to it naturally, and where they are
notably ineffective. And I think this is just as true of the clergyman as it
is of the AA member, or of psychiatrist, or social worker, or psychologist,
or anyone else.

The Role of the Clergy

Just as some people are natural born leaders, some are natural born helpers;
they seem to know instinctively what to do and what to say. They seem to
have such right attitudes, they automatically establish a rapport without
even thinking about it. They are just made that way. Not everybody is,
unfortunately. Now, for the clergyman who is not a 100% successful therapist
in this field, or counsellor, he must learn how to refer and where to refer.
He must accept his role in the team as, you might say, the front runner, the
case finder.

I have often spoken of the clergy as our front line troops. They are leading
the rest; they are out in front of the army, because they are more likely to
turn up hidden cases and, furthermore, to get a hearing, to be able to talk
to those hidden cases, than any other single group. Every survey that has
ever been made indicates that more people go first to their clergyman when
there is trouble than to any other group and in the field of alcoholism, it
is easy to see why. Remember that as a nation, as a people, we look upon
alcoholism as a 100% moral problem, and have done so for generations. Now
moral problems are the business of the clergy. It was only after they had
failed that we turned to the law and said, all right, let the law take its
course. He is a sinner, and he won't do anything about it. You can't save
him. We will let the law take its course.

I think the clergy has a tremendous role to play as case finders and
referral agents to AA, or to a doctor, or to a clinic, or to an Alcoholism
Information Center. This last is really the bridge; the Alcoholism
Information Center was devised as a bridge between the alcoholics who are
out there unready or unwilling to commit themselves by going directly to AA
or to a doctor or to a clergyman. But they will go somewhere that has got
information on it, because they are not committing themselves; they can go
in and ask for information; they always ask for information for a friend,
you know, and they get quite a lot of information. The people in the
information centers are well enough trained so that they know this, and
almost always they get the admission out of this individual, "Well, I am the
friend," before he leaves. Sometimes it may take two or three visits, but if
this person has brought himself to go there once, and he has been properly
handled, he will come back.

The information center is not a treatment center; it is a referral center.
And many clergymen use their local information centers very heavily. They go
there to inform themselves also, because this is the place where one can go
to find out everything that is currently known about alcoholism and what
resources exist in a community, what doctors are knowledgeable, so that when
an alcoholic is sent to them they don't say, "Oh, you are no alcoholic. Take
just two," or some such silly thing, as far too many doctors are still
doing.

This information is available to you, if you have a Council on Alcoholism,
and it operates an information center. It is available to you just as to any
other citizen, except that the information center is twice as glad to see a
clergyman come in, because we recognize their value to us. We know that
often they are getting in where nobody else can get in. We know that often
they know who the alcoholics are, or where they are, better than anybody
else. And if they will themselves become fully informed, they will be able
to do an outstanding job.

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++++Message 2405. . . . . . . . . . . . About Marty Mann: "The Sick Person
We Call an Alcoholic"
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2005 2:33:00 AM

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Mrs. Mann, once a victim of liquor, tells what we can do to help those
who would quit but can't.

By B.J. Woolf

Yale University is sponsoring a new course in education. It is not being
given in the college buildings, but it is one which its sponsors hope will
affect the entire country and foster a better understanding of one of the
most common of all diseases.

The National Committee for Education on Alcoholism, in existence for a year
and a half, is being largely financed by the university. Its primary
function is to change public opinion regarding alcoholism and to aid in
establishing a program for its treatment.

For, according to the executive director of the committee, the drunkard who
rolls in the gutter is as sick as the man suffering from some mortal
disease. The only difference between the two is that there is hope for the
former; with the proper treatment he may become a worthwhile citizen.

And, judging from the executive director herself, one must be tempted to
believe what she says. For Marty Mann, according to her own story, was a
victim of the craving for alcohol. The only reason she did not lie in the
gutter was that she had enough money to have a place where she could be
helpless and sodden. Today Mrs. Mann is an attractive, smart- looking woman
in her thirties. Her clear complexion, her alert blue eyes and her
manner bear no trace of years of hard drinking. As she told me her story she
might have been recounting the trials and sufferings of another. She seemed
detached from the victim whose longings she recalled, as separate an entity
as Dr. Jekyll was from Mr. Hyde.

Moreover, although she said her illness was not cured but arrested, she
expressed no fear of a relapse. And when I asked her to what she attributed
the change, she ascribed it to Alcoholics Anonymous, an organization founded
in 1934 by a former drunkard who had successfully reformed another habitual
drinker. The organization now has nearly 400
chapters in the United States and Canada and claims a national membership of
more than 15,000. Its members are not ashamed of having been sick and are so
grateful for their own recovery that they try to help others, offering at
their meetings friendship, counsel and guidance.

It was not only what Alcoholics Anonymous did or her but also what it has
done for others which influenced Mrs. Mann to undertake her present work.
Now, in addition to directing the activities of the national committee from
its New York headquarters, she tours the country, giving lectures on the
best ways to conquer alcoholism. "The alcoholic," she says, "is a sick
person who can be helped and is worth helping. This is
a public health problem. Apart from the economic aspect - for the alcoholic
is an expense not only to himself and his family but also to the community
at large - the humanitarian side is tremendously important.

"Our committee is endeavoring to teach the public that alcoholics must not
be shunned but helped. We are getting local programs started throughout the
country to make clear the basic facts about alcoholism, the need for a
change in attitude towards those afflicted and the best methods for solving
the problem through community action. We are
assisting in the establishment of local committees, composed of
representative citizens, which will act with our assistance in combating the
evil.

"We are making available literature on the subject, explaining the treatment
of the disease either at home or in clinics, and encouraging the transfer of
alcoholics from jails to hospitals. A man should not be jailed for being
drunk; he should be sent to a hospital to be cured.

"At the present time there are but two clinics for drunkenness in the entire
country; yet alcoholism is as prevalent a disease as either tuberculosis or
cancer and one that, rightly handled, is more easily treated. Our committee
proposes to play the same part in fighting the disease as the tuberculosis
committee does in its field. We are certain that when people in general
become aware of the true state of affairs they will help in stamping out
this evil. Do you realize that there are few places in the whole country
with adequate facilities for the care and treatment of alcoholics?

"In the first place, alcoholism must be correctly diagnosed. One type is the
symptom of an underlying mental ailment. This requires the care of a
psychiatrist and will not yield to ordinary treatment for alcoholism. To
cure it, the mental condition must be cured. On the other hand, so-called
secondary alcoholism responds to simple re-education - that
is, making the patient realize his illness and convincing him that his
physical make-up is such that it is impossible for him to drink in
moderation. This is the method employed by Alcoholics Anonymous. In some
cases this re-education must be accompanied by either medical or psychiatric
treatment and sometimes even by institutional care.

"Until the clinics are established with experts in charge, all drunkards
will be handled in the same way, and there is little chance for their
recovery. But in establishing these clinics we must watch one important
thing: they must not be too closely allied with courts. They must be places
no one need be ashamed to go to, places which to not brand the patients as
lawbreakers. One of the principal aims of our committee is
to encourage the establishment of such clinics throughout the country and to
assist them with all the scientific data on the subject."

As she puffed a cigarette Mrs. Mann went on: "Alcoholism is like greatness.
Some people are born alcoholics, some achieve alcoholism and others have
alcoholism thrust upon them. I belong to the third class, for it was
prohibition that did the thrusting.

"I was born in Chicago and my people were well-to-do. I had everything for
which a girl could ask, including a year at school in Florence. When I came
back to this country I was in many ways just like other girls in my set. The
usual coming-out party, dances and other social events filled my life.

"But America's noble experiment was being tried out and decent young men
thought it was smart to go around with hip flasks. In addition, they would
take us girls to little places where they must be recognized through a
peephole before being allowed to enter. I was young and happy and gay and I
thought it great fun to take a drink.

"One thing I did not realize then - I did not learn it until years later -
was that I, like three-quarters of a million others who are known and
countless others who are not known, may be called allergic to alcohol. We
are the unfortunates who are not immune to it. And there is no Schick test
as there is for diphtheria, which can determine a person's
immunity. One only finds out too late."

She went on to say that there are those who drink in moderation. They enjoy
a certain release after a drink or two. Their tensions are eased and this,
she believes, is a perfectly legitimate reason for their drinking. But they
do not need to drink. A movie, a theatre or a visit to friends serves the
same purpose.

As she continued her story it was hard to believe that she was talking about
herself. She seemed calm and detached. There was humor in her talk and there
was nothing of the "professional dry" in her manner. While apparently a
certain emotional urge brought about her recovery. It was not accompanied by
the jingle of tambourines or the "step-up-and-be-saved" shouts of the
sawdust trail.

She told of her marriage a year after her debut and the discovery that her
husband was an alcoholic. She does not blame him for her drinking, for she
had the disease when she was married. But even his example did not stop her.
Within a year she divorced him and drank more than ever. Then she went to
England to get away from herself.

While she was there her family suffered financial reverses and she had to go
to work. At first she became an interior decorator and later became
associated with a photographic establishment. And all the time she kept
drinking more and more to feel "normal."

"Of course," she said, "like all alcoholics, I made the usual excuses. I
kept saying to myself that I could stop it if I wanted to, and I persuaded
myself that I was drinking for business reasons. But I was miserable and
finally I became convinced that I was going crazy. Strangely enough, I never
once attributed my mental state to my drinking, but was sure that I was
drinking to calm my nerves.

"Things got worse and worse. I became melancholic. Twice I tried suicide and
finally one of my business associates insisted that I go to a sanitarium. I
decided to return to America.

"By this time I was a confirmed drunkard. For weeks I would stay in my room,
too drunk to do anything but lie in bed. Even then I did not attribute my
condition to drink. I was sure that it was my brain and that I would end my
days in a mad house.

"Finally friends persuaded me to go to a sanitarium in Greenwich. I did not
seem to improve much, but one day the doctor handed me a copy of 'Alcoholics
Anonymous.' I glanced through it and became angry. I was not an alcoholic.
This had nothing to do with me. So in a fit of temper I threw the book
across the room. Then something happened which I cannot explain. The book
lay open on the floor and as I picked it up my eyes
lighted on the words, 'We cannot live with anger.' They attracted me and I
sat down with it and began to read. I became interested and suddenly the
truth swept over me. I was an alcoholic. I had an obsession of the mind
coupled with an allergy of the body."

She wrote to Alcoholics Anonymous and began getting letters of encouragement
from them. Then she came to New York to attend their meetings. "Here were
decent people," she said, "all in the same boat as I. They did not look down
on me nor did they lecture me. They did not say they were cured, but that
their illness had been arrested. They did
not touch liquor because they knew if they did they would become sick once
more. They did not suggest that I sign a pledge. All they did was to advise
me to promise myself that I would not drink for twenty-four hours and when
the twenty-four hours were passed to make myself the same promise again."

Their tolerance, their understanding and their desire to help all made a
deep impression upon her. Once or twice she slipped, but when they heard of
it, instead of lectures they gave her sympathy. They themselves had done the
same thing.

Today Mrs. Mann is a firm believer in the efficacy of this system in the
treatment of many cases of alcoholism. She does not attempt to explain why
it works. But she says it is successful in about 80 per cent of the cases.
Undoubtedly group therapy plays an important part. Being able to talk
plainly with no shame to others who have been through the same distress
means a lot. For, she says, no one except an alcoholic can
truly understand the feelings of one.

"Those who have attended our meetings," she said, "who came to scoff have
remained to pray. At these meetings men and women who have recovered get up
and tell their experiences. All of them are intensely sincere in their
desire to help and, while there is no particular religious dogma involved
all of us recognize a power higher than ourselves which has helped us. To
some it is God, to others a spiritual force which cannot be explained."

In carrying on the work of the committee, Mrs. Mann sees Alcoholics
Anonymous playing an important part.

"But," she says, "please don't get the idea that our committee is a
crusading outfit that is going around the country with hatchets trying to
smash up gin mills. Those of us who are alcoholics are personal drys because
we realize that we can't take liquor in moderation. But this does not mean
that we believe that those who can should be deprived of it. For us it is
drunkenness or dryness. For those not afflicted as we are, to drink or not
to drink is not such an important question."

Source: The New York Times Magazine, April 21, 1946.

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++++Message 2406. . . . . . . . . . . . Skid Row U.S.A. Part 1
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2005 2:06:00 PM

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Skid Row U.S.A. Part 1

By WILLIAM J. SLOCUM
Collier's Magazine [Part I], 1949

Perhaps you'll recognize one of your old friends or schoolmates on this tour
through the jungles of our cities. Skid Row is an open jail for men whose
only crime may be poverty or loneliness.
PART ONE OF TWO PARTS:
I have just traveled 8,000 miles, groping my way through the missions,
saloons and flophouses of a dark and sometimes dank jungle known as skid
row. I saw thousands of men, most of them drunk, half of them dirty, and all
of them beaten by life. I talked, drank, ate and sang hymns with them. I had
some small adventures, too, which weren' t very important. What might be
important though, is that I probably met someone you have known.

If you went to Perdu, Villanova, the Haskell School for Indians, or to
Heidelberg in Germany, it may be that I crossed paths with an old classmate
of yours. Or, if you are a doctor of medicine with a wide acquaintanceship,
it is possible my roommate in Kansas City counted you a friend. He and I
shared a six-by-four chamber with a crate full of chickens.

If you are a pampered hambone living in Hollywood, come along with me; step
into your chartreuse convertible, drive down to Fifth Street in Los Angeles
and park outside the blood bank. Sooner or later you' ll see him, and
perhaps recognize him. He gets $4 a pint for his blood, a sum which is
immediately translatable into a couple of gallons of muscatel.

Are you a member in good standing of the Officers' Club? Then, try Congress
Avenue in Houston. You may recognize the man I saw there. He was a
lieutenant colonel, up from the ranks, sir. Or check Clark Street in Chicago
for a West Pointer, or Howard Street in San Francisco for an Annapolis man.

Did you know a linguist? Scout the Madison Street jungle in Chicago. Because
a derelict there surprised a cop by speaking to him in Gaelic. An assistant
state' s attorney got Italian from him. Later he lapsed into Chinese. A
Greek lawyer, called in, said his Greek was good. "Sure, he could get by,"
the lawyer explained. "You see, he doesn' t speak modern Greek much. Just
classical Greek."

This man won' t be hard to find. He' s a Negro.

I traveled 8,000 miles before I met somebody I knew myself. I ran into a
schoolmate on the corner of Stanton Street and the Bowery in New York at
seven fifty one morning. (A saloon on Stanton Street hands out "coffee and "
each morning when the doors are opened at 8:00 A.M.) My old schoolmate was
waiting. He laughed when he saw me and said, "you' re getting fat. You drink
too much beer." Meeting him cost $5.

I started this tour of Skid Row in Chicago where I met Captain Joseph Graney
of the Desplaines Street Police Station. The captain made me a little bet.

"If you' re going all over the country to look at Skid Row I' ll lay you 15
to 5 you meet an old friend," he predicted. "And I' ll tell you something
else. You' ll meet guys who talk better than you, think better than you, and
dress better than you. But you just won' t meet anybody as lucky as you."

The captain was right on all counts.

Alcohol: the Cause or the Result?

Skid Row is the end of the road for thousands of Americans. It is a jungle
of crumbling tenements, twisted shacks and filthy alleys. It is an open jail
for men who are guilty of no greater crime than being poor, or not getting
along with their wives, or just being lonesome. Sure, many drink, but no man
can honestly say whether alcohol is the cause or the result of their
hopelessness.

Skid Rows are at their gaudiest in big cities, but if there are 5,000 or
more people in your town, chances are you have a Skid Row of sorts. You
think not? How about that part of the city where the ne' er-do-wells
gather-a couple of drunks, the old panhandler, the shiftless handy man, the
fellow who never amounted to much after the war (pick your own war) and the
village idiot? That' s Skid Row.

If you live in a big city you know the place. In New York it' s the Bowery,
biggest and cruelest of them all. Chicago has two small Rows plus
bloodstained Madison Street. There is also Howard Street in gracious San
Francisco, the dirtiest, drinkingest and most depressing thoroughfare in the
land. In Los Angeles it' s Fifth Street off South Main where the bartenders
direct you to the nearest blood bank when you run out of money and need some
quick cash.

Proud and booming Houston has its Congress Avenue where the bums try to talk
like Gene Autry, try to look like him, and never spill a grain of tobacco as
they roll their own with quivering hands. In Kansas City, the flophouses on
Main Street and the tin-can shacks on the banks of the Missouri have at one
time or another housed a great Middle Western brain surgeon, a millionaire''
son, a farm equipment engineer who was the best man in his business, and
wonder of wonders, Missouri's leading madam.

Dungarees or blue jeans are the traditional uniform of Skid Row, but a
neatly dressed man excites no interest. He can be a sightseer, a businessman
off on a bender, or one of the highly prosperous gentlemen who run the
saloons, flophouses, barber colleges, pawnshops or two-bit movie houses that
infest the jungle.

The saloons sell 10-cent gin at a profit. Barber colleges are numerous
because there are always plenty of men in the neighborhood who are willing
to shed a few drops of blood in return for a free shave. The two-bit movie
houses provide a comfortable place to sleep despite the endless gunfire
exploding from the sound tracks of the old Westerns that are Skid Row' s
customary cinema fare.

I spent a month on the Skid Rows of the nation and visited all these exotic
hangouts of the unlucky and the unwary. I also visited a quiet old building
on Hillhouse Avenue in New Haven, Connecticut. In it work some of the
brilliant and consecrated men who are devoting their lives to studying
alcoholism. If anything is to be done for Skid Row bums, the whys and
wherefores of drunkenness must first be understood. The men at the Yale
Clinic are trying.

To the vast majority of people liquor is refreshment, a part of good and
congenial living. And wine, always more exotic than the hard stuff, recalls
the warmth, the richness and the good taste suggested by its historic use in
religious ceremony.

That' s what alcohol generally means to most of us. But to the 90 per cent
of the Skid Row population who are chronic drunks, alcohol-in any form-is
the be-all and end-all of their sordid existence. It is pursued as other men
seek fame, fortune or the third blonde from the end.

The other 10 per cent live there for financial reasons, usually because
their earnings or their pensions permit nothing better. Some are ducking
alimony payments or more serious complications. Others simply are misers.
Many old-timers eke out their last days in fleabags because they can fins
companionship there without the regimentation to be faced in the Old Folks
Home.

But the typical Skid Row bum will drink anything. Three Chicago policemen,
planted inside a stolen automobile in a garage, watched one bum tap an
engine and then lie on his back to catch the spouting antifreeze alcohol.
Rubbing alcohol and other forms distilled from wood are diluted or "cut" to
make "smoke," a universal Skid Row drink.

Bay run, hair tonic and canned heat are also widely used. The solid canned
heat is reduced to liquid by putting it in a piece of thin cloth and then
squeezing it. The resulting poison is known among the cognoscenti as a "Pink
Lady."

Death or blindness is the frequent end result of this kind of drinking. As a
minor note in a major tragedy, "smoke," "Pink Ladies" and the like do not
produce the sense of well-being common to accepted alcoholic drinks. They
merely numb, render unconscious and perhaps bring on death.

An oft-used drink along Skid Row, however, is wine. Fortified wines. They
run slightly over 20 per cent alcohol and are therefore about half the
strength of a shot of whisky.

There is a popular police theory across the nation that the "winos" (or
"wineeos" as some Chicagoans call them) will drink fortified wines because
they keep a man drunk longer. The winos disagree. I was told at least a
hundred times in response to my question, "I drink wine because I can' t
afford whisky." When a Skid Row bum does have a stake he drinks hard liquor.

The business of getting drunk starts with the dawn. The haggard man walks
around with one hand outstretched. In that hand is a nickel or a dime. He
hails each passing comrade with "I got a dime." The other in turn sings back
how much he has. They join forces and continue the search for a third and
fourth, or until they have among them enough to get a bottle.

There are certain customs and etiquettes observed. The largest contributor
usually gets the first drink, but after that it is rotation drinking without
regard to contribution. If two men have enough to buy a pint they will do
so, but not three. Three will wait until they have a fourth, and perhaps
even a fifth man, in order to get a larger bottle. A non-contributor often
can get a drink. However, custom limits him to just one, unless he has spent
the night in jail. He may then join the rotation. These gentle rules apply
everywhere except in New York. There, Bowery protocol is: No money, no
drink.

Shelter is a distant second need to alcohol in the Skid Row pattern. Food is
a bad third. Even in the mildest of weather the bum wants a bed or, as he
calls it, a "flop." He knows he must sleep and his need for a bed is one per
cent comfort and 99 per cent sheer survival. If he sleeps in a park or an
alley he can reasonably expect to have his shoes stolen and his pockets
sliced out of his pants. He will be too drunk either to know or to resist.

Many Names for Flophouses

The commonest of Skid Row shelters are the flophouses. The entrepreneurs of
these substandard stables prefer to call their hostelries "lodginghouses."
The clients of the "lodging-houses" prefer such basic descriptive
terminology as "fleabag," "scratch house," "flop-house" and a long series of
accurate, but unprintable names. Prices vary slightly the country over, but
the difference is not great. In general a dormitory cot costs a quarter and
a private room usually sets a guest back about a half dollar.

The private rooms, called "bird cages," are six feet by four feet and
contain a bed and locker. The walls are built at least two feet short of the
ceiling, and wire netting stretches across the top of each cell. This
netting is a ventilating device, and as the evening wears on, ventilation
progressively becomes less of a blessing.

Each floor of a flophouse has a few "suites." These are rooms which have
windows. They rent for 15 or 20 cents more than the regular rooms. They also
have electric lights, a rarity in the majority of lodginghouses.

Many flophouses are patent firetraps. New York and Chicago recently cracked
down on the proprietors. But they remain firetraps, nevertheless.

Anybody (male) gets into a flophouse by plopping down the necessary fee and
muttering a name to the clerk. The clerk tosses the guest a key and
scribbles down his interpretation of the name.

All you get for your money is a flop. If you smoke you get tossed out. If
you have a visitor in your room you both get thrown out. If you make any
noise (Not uncommon when you go to bed with a jug) you get the heave-ho.
Seldom does anybody get his money back when evicted.

Credit regulations are basic the country over. There is no credit except for
the steadiest customers and pensioners. A steady customer is defined as a
man in residence for more than six years. He can expect two nights' lodging
on credit, then out he goes. The pensioner gets a better break simply
because his check comes to the hotel, and the management forces him to
endorse it on the spot. These rare courtesies are likely to be withdrawn
immediately if the recipient forgets to tip the clerk. Strangely, the
itinerant guests invariably tip the clerk a nickel or a dime.

Some Skid Row bums, usually pensioners, live in the same flophouse 15 and 20
years. Two of the Four Horsemen gallop the corridors of the nation' s
fleabags 24 hours a day. The ambulance and the hearse are almost as common
as the patrol wagon which makes regular rounds picking up drunks out of the
gutters.

It is impossible to get statistics on the Skid Row death rate but Chicago,
whose Skid Row population varies seasonably between 7,000 (spring and
summer) and 15,000 (winter), reported last winter that 50 corpses a month
are found in the Skid Row area. Another 50 persons are removed from Skid Row
to die in hospitals.

Missions sometimes have dormitories and "bird cages." The missions are
cleaner and invariably more expensive than a hotel flop. They are not
popular with Skid Row bums because their admittance requirements are higher
than the flophouses.

In many cities there are also dilapidated rooming houses which usually cater
to a reasonably permanent clientele. A lady in Kansas City runs one which
has eight pensioners. None of the guests has seen his check in months. She
handles everything.

When a Skid Row bum is without a flop for the night he "is carrying the
banner." When he is tormented with a hang-over that screams for a nerve
placating drink he is "sick." A bum who says he is "sick" or "carrying the
banner" can be certain of relief from his fellow bums if among them they can
dig up the necessary funds.

Soup and coffee are the staple items of a Skid Row diet. Where prices are
high (40 to 50 cents for a portion of meat scraps, potatoes and all the
bread without butter you can eat) a regular meal comes close to costing as
much as it would in a modest restaurant located in a poor section of town.

Chicago and New York fit this category. But wherever a man can get meat and
potatoes for about a quarter, as he can in Kansas City and Los Angeles, it
sometimes seems to me that he could do better to get his nourishment from
wine. Such restaurants are called "horse markets" by their suspicious
customers.

Chef Earns All He Gets

A restaurant on Madison Street in Chicago pays its Skid Row chef $150 a week
and he is worth it. A strange characteristic of Skid Row restaurants
everywhere is their attitude on cleanliness. They are either unspeakably
filthy or as spotless as a hospital operating room. They all specialize in
the cheapest and most obscure cuts of meat, and their prices vary in each
city.

Missions hand out doughnuts and coffee in the morning and soup and coffee at
night. But when a man eats in a mission he has been broke and hungry a long,
long time. A few saloons give their regular customers coffee and cake in the
morning. And soup is occasionally doled out in the afternoon. But the saloon
usually uses only three or four bowls at a time, so the bums must wait while
the early comers empty and clean a dish.

Free soup and coffee are always a miracle in alchemy. Somehow the cooks
manage to water down the water.

The citizen of Skid Row has the same need-if not the same lust-for money
that distinguishes his more normal brother. And he gets it precisely the
same way. He works for it, has it given to him or he steals it. Skid Row
seems to be evenly divided among those who won' t work and those who can' t
work.

Panhandling is a prime source of revenue in any jungle. Sometimes it' s
plain begging, but more often the price of a pint is earned through devices
such as peddling pencils, shoelaces, and the like. The "lumbermen" or crutch
carrying cripples can beg $30 a day with ease. However, when one has made a
$5 stake he simply calls it a day and heads for a package store. The bums
have learned that, for some reason, a young man on crutches does better
financially than an older person. All begging is risky business because the
police are wont to discourage it with controlled violence, but they dare not
touch a cripple.

Beggars hang together in groups of four of five. Frequently only one of the
gang will work a full day while the others loaf. Each man simply takes his
turn.

Meet Trampdom' s Upper Crust

The gandy-dancers are the Skid Row aristocracy. They work for the railroads,
laying track, grading roadbeds and digging drainage ditches. Their name is
derived from the rhythmical movement they once made as they tamped gravel
and cinders tightly around railroad ties. They worked in pairs, bobbing up
and down. Modern machinery has made this type particular type of work
extinct, but there is other heavy labor easily worth the standard $1.06 to
$1.09 per-hour rate. That shoots up two cents per hour when the gandy-dancer
has a year or more of continuous service, a most unlikely eventuality.

The gandy-dancer usually works from May 1st to November 30th. During this
period he frequently leaves Skid Row and lives in work camps where he must
pay for inferior food and bad lodging. At the typical camp the tab varies
from 65 cents per meal to $2.93 a day. He works six, but pays room and board
for seven days. Many railroads maintain labor offices on Skid Row. Others
contract for help through commissary agents who supply the men and feed and
board them. The agents' profits comes out of the food and lodging bill.

A gandy-dancer is entitled to unemployment benefits from the railroads based
upon how much money he makes. These benefits, plus local unemployment
relief, help see him through the winter, or as he says, "Keep me safe to
Paddy' s Day." A few gandy-dancers, as soon as they hit town, will pay their
flophouse rent in advance for December 1st to St. Patrick' s Day. Most of
them are lucky if they have a nickel left a week after they come in from the
camps. Agents say 70 per cent of the men stay at work throughout the season.

From my own observations, I doubt it by 70 per cent of their estimated 70
per cent.

Many go out to pick fruits or vegetables. This is piecework and those who
have the strength and the necessary manual agility can make as much as $12 a
day. The food is always better than the railroad camps provide and is
frequently excellent by any standards. Labor agencies are numerous in Skid
Row and help supply agricultural workers.

It is an accepted custom for a man to sign on as a gandy-dancer so he will
be shipped close to the Connecticut tobacco fields or the California
vegetable crops. Then he jumps the railroad and justifies it, if he bothers,
because of the bad food and dirty living quarters that seem to be part of
the railroad camps.

When a man comes back from a period of gandy-dancing or an agricultural job
with a couple of hundred dollars in his pockets, he wants a shoeshine. A
bootblack on Kansas City' s Skid Row told me, "I' ve shined shoes that didn'
t have any soles on ‘em. They always throw you a half buck. If they have
any
money, they' ll get a shine three or four times a day. I don' t know why but
they all love to get their shoes shined."

The shoes may be polished in a bar- room and often a man who is flush will
leave his wad with the bartender. He may or may not drink it all up in a
night. Obviously no man can drink $200 worth of two-for-a-quarter whisky in
a single evening but there are repeated rounds of drinks for the house. And
the bartender usually keeps tab with equal abandon.

Men who want a day' s work will gather at a rendezvous point in Skid Row to
be picked up each morning by independent truckers. The pay is usually a
dollar an hour and no Skid Row laborer will accept hire from an employer who
insists upon withholding taxes. He wants $8 for eight hours and the trucker
can pay the government anything Uncle Sam has coming. This work is as
unpopular as it is arduous, so four or five men will band together to take
daily turns at working and each day' s $8 is divided among the group that
night.

Most of the handbills distributed in any town are set out by Skid Row
workers. To get around minimum-wage laws, an hour is not used as a unit of
time in this industry. An hour is the duration it takes to distribute a
specified number of handbills. In crowded areas an hour is equivalent to 125
deliveries; medium crowded it' s 100; and sparsely settled suburbs are 75.
Payment in this field seems to work out to around 35 cents an hour for a
day'' work. But it can be a lot less.

The lowest form of Skid Row labor is bottle collecting. Men trudge around
picking up empties which, by a custom which is nation-wide except in New
York, are carefully lined up along the curbs for the convenience of the
bottle-man. He gets a cent and a half for gallon jugs, a cent for quart
bottles and a half cent for pints. And they must be wine bottles, because
whisky bottles by law cannot be refilled.

Brisk Trade with Blood Banks

If you have ever been given plasma or serum you are closer to Skid Row than
you think. Thousands of bums peddle their blood to legitimate banks, many of
which are located in, or reasonably adjacent to, Skid Row. The price for a
pint which is to be reduced to plasma is $4 in California and a little more
in the East.

A blood donor is generally limited to five bleedings a year, but a man can
go broke a lot more than five times during 12 long months. Records are kept,
but identification is a haphazard thing on Skid Row. Arms are examined for
recent punctures and in Los Angeles each donor has the fingers of his left
hand painted with a compound which is not visible unless the hand is placed
under a blue fluorescent lamp. It takes about eight weeks for this solution
to disappear completely. I watched one bank turn away 32 men within two
hours when the lamp showed telltale blue on their fingers. Recently,
however, a Skid Row chemist discovered a solution that erases the stain
within minutes.

Clear-blooded alcoholics from Skid Row make up the largest part of the
nation' s donor population. But their contributions mix easily with those
from church groups giving blood for charity, or from young men who need the
price of a few gallons of gas for an evening date, and from other young men
who need money to buy mike for their babies. The blood banks in Los Angeles
normally hit peak production just before Income Tax Day.

Pensions account for a large, if not the largest, portion of income. Most
pensioners do not draw enough to allow better living standards.

The steel and concrete jungle is heavily populated with remittance men
drawing small monthly checks from relatives and with Army and Navy
pensioners. The retired servicemen are usually as drunk as anybody in the
bar- room, but they are invariably immaculate.

One of the most extraordinary seminars I ever heard started in a Bowery
saloon when one old gentleman complained of his rheumatism and said, "I can
go up to the Old Soldiers Home. But I don' t want to do that yet." He went
on to say, "There' s a law you know. No soldier of Uncle Sam can be a public
charge."

General agreement was voiced and then a bleary old gent said, "You know,
America is the greatest country in the world." This was immediately
acknowledged as gospel by all and sundry and there began a round-table
discussion among a half-dozen down-and-out hulks, each vying to add further
vocal tribute to the land of opportunity.

There are a few women on Skid Row, for a variety of reasons. Perhaps one
explanation is that the weaker sex is made of sterner stuff. Another more
obvious argument is that society just won' t allow a woman to sleep in the
gutter. I saw a cripple fall and split his face wide open in front of
Chicago' s Haymarket Theater and the box-office lady didn' t pause a second
in the job of applying her lipstick. But let a woman doze off in a hallway
and the police station switchboard lights up like a Christmas tree. Almost
invariably the calls are from indignant females.

The female Skid Row consists, obviously, of the bordellos of the land. But
the inmates therein rarely wind up in the gutters. The mortality rate among
prostitutes is high. But so, too, is the marriage rate. And when a girl
finds she has to call quits to such a career she can always go home.

Few Women Among the "Down"

Traveling from New York to California and back, I saw four out-and-out Skid
Row drunks of the opposite sex. I don' t know how many thousands of
alcoholic men I saw. The professional phrase for a bum who has dropped to
the sidewalk is "down." I saw at least 500 males who were down during a
month in the jungle, but just two females.

I did see perhaps 50 women who obviously lived on Skid Row. There are no
flophouses available to them, so they live in tiny rooms. They are
pensioners or beggars. A few shelters for women do exist, but they are
expensive and the tenants are subject to expulsion if, after a 12-hour day
of selling pencils, they so befoul themselves as to have a couple of glasses
of beer.

Although Skid Row is almost completely free of sex, and few females are ever
seen on it, women are a perpetual topic of conversation at the bars and over
the tables in the flophouse lobbies. Almost all Skid Row bums insist that
women put them where they are. At first I shrugged off that theory as an
alibi. After a month of closer listening, however, I would suggest that any
error is in the direction of understatement. In addition to the bums who are
certain that women put them on Skid Row, there are others who unmistakably
were driven there by women and don' t realize it.

To clear up that last statement first: Policemen all over the country told
me to look for the derelict who had been the "youngest son." He was not hard
to find. He was, in fact, everywhere. He was the boy who had stayed home
with Mother while the older brothers went out and got themselves set in
business. When Mother died, the youngest was finally forced into a
competitive world. Perhaps he started at the age of forty-about 22 years too
late.

He stands alone, bereft of his mother' s comfort and with a tight silver
cord still tied around his hands and his brains. Whisky, he soon discovers,
erases his fear, his confusion, and his humiliation. Soon he is on Skid Row.
Quite frequently he is supported by checks from his older brothers who ask
only that he stay to hell away from them.

He himself believes that he' s on Skid Row because he couldn' t get along
with his family back in Des Moines. He' s there, of course, because his
mother didn' t give him the same break she gave his brothers.

"Too Much Mama" May Harm Son
A slight variation of the youngest son who stayed home with Mama is the case
of the only son who did the same thing.

The Yale Plan Clinic is in the throes of conducting a survey which is not
yet nearly complete. But the figures which have so far been compiled carry a
tremendous impact. Mark Keller of the Yale Group has made the following
statement on the basis of what has been learned so far:

"We are making a study on the subject. It is not yet complete but we now
have statistics indicating that 40 per cent of alcoholics are either 'only
children' or ‘youngest.' Also, the more siblings older than the subject,
the
more likely he is to appear as an alcoholic." Siblings are brothers or
sisters.

So much for Mama who is, after all, a woman. The most frequently recurring
episode in the Skid Row story goes like this. The Hotel McCoy is the Grand
Hotel of Chicago' s foul Madison Street Skid Row. It has 800 rooms divided
among three floors, each cubicle measuring roughly four feet by six feet.
Rates are 60 cents a day except for the rare rooms with windows. With
ventilation the price jumps to 75 cents.

A handsome automobile halted before the McCoy and one of the two ladies in
it daintily hailed a policeman.

"Officer," she said, "we' re afraid to go in there but we would like to see
Mr. John Jones. Would you ask him to come out?"

The policeman entered and the clerk pointed out Mr. Jones who was quietly
reading a comic book and enjoying a chew of tobacco. "Jones," said the
policeman in the courtly manner of all Chicago cops, "there' s a couple of
babes out there in a big car. They want to see you."

Jones, being on Skid Row and being in the presence of the law, cowered. "Do
I have to go out?"

"Nope. But they' re real rich looking kids. Furs and everything."

"Is there a redheaded old woman with them, Officer?"

"No. Just the two young ones."

Jones smiled and got up. "Okay. Let' s go. Those are my daughters. But if
that redheaded old bag of a mother of theirs is along, I' m running right
back in here."

Jones, Skid Row bum but proud father, went out to meet his daughters. He was
one of the vast army of men who have fled a nagging wife for the delights of
an all-make Skid Row flop and some peace and quiet.

None of the men I met admitted his life had been blighted by a maiden who
spurned his offer of matrimony. Nor did any charge infidelity on the part of
their wives.

But the doting mother, and the nagging wife must take the blame for
thousands who seek escape on Skid Row. Liquor, too, plays a heavy role here,
of course, and no woman can be criticized for objecting if her husband is
perpetually plastered. But, like the chicken and the egg, it would be
interesting to know which came first.

What steps are being taken to wipe out Skid Row-U.S.A.? Next week' s
installment exposes the inadequacies of our programs to help the unfortunate
men who are America' s living dead.

Source: Collier' s, August 27, 1949

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++++Message 2407. . . . . . . . . . . . Skid Row U.S.A. Part 2
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2005 2:07:00 PM

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By WILLIAM J. SLOCUM

Collier's Magazine [Part II], 1949

Within our cities there is a world of living dead where lonely, despairing
Americans seek escape from themselves. The author of this two part article
traveled 8,000 miles to get a close-up of Skid Row, U.S.A. Every city and
town with a population of 5,000 or more has its own human jungle. Crumbling
tenements and filthy alleys mark the end of the road for thousands of
Americans. Part 1 dealt with the way vagrants go about getting a drink, a
flop or an occasional stake. But what is society doing to rehabilitate these
men?

CONCLUSION

A weird little tale was recently unfolded in Chicago that somehow managed to
encompass everything that goes to make up Skid Row, U.S.A. A bum was found
dead in the Madison Street jungle and they carted his body off to the
morgue. His pockets were crammed with identification, so officials were able
to notify a Wisconsin family that their father had departed this world. The
wife and a couple of daughters came on and identified the remains.

The body was taken back to Wisconsin and buried with full American Legion
honors. A $1500 insurance policy was settled and all went well for two
weeks. Then the family received a peremptory note from the morgue giving
them 48 hours to claim Father or he would go to potter's field. The family,
baffled by this development, came running to the Desplaines Street police
station, which has jurisdiction over the Madison Street Skid Row.

Captain Joseph Graney quieted the woman and told them the morgue had
originally made a mistake in concluding the body was that of their father,
and the family had compounded the error by identifying the strange corpse.
While the Captain was talking to the ladies, however, they showed him a
picture of their father, taken a decade before. Captain Graney looked at the
picture and bellowed, "I saw this same guy last night in front of the Star
and Garter. He was plastered. Wait here a minute."

Graney hopped into a squad car. In five minutes he was back, dragging behind
him a very live and reasonably sober gentleman. It was, indeed, Father
himself. As soon as the initial shock had worn off Father spoke. "Fooled
you, didn't I?" he gloated. "You thought I was dead, eh? Sorry to disappoint
you." With that he made a vulgar noise in the direction of his wife and
requested the captain's permission to return to the peace and quiet of his
flophouse.

The possibility of intended fraud is remote and unimportant to this grisly
anecdote which capsules so much of the Skid Roe story. Father did not merely
dislike Mother. He hated her. Father's respectable family and his war record
suggest he had not long been an anonymous alcoholic. Father had recently
been "jack-rolled" while drunk and it is reasonable to suspect that the man
who later died was the one who had picked his pockets. That would explain
how Father's identification papers were found on the corpse.

One drunken derelict preying on another, sudden death and the completely
broken family, these are Skid Row-the American jungle.

In New York, a Bowery tavern owner named Sammy Fuchs made an effort to do
something to help the bums who wanted their relatives to be notified in case
of death. From them he accepted envelopes which the bums numbered and
sealed. Inside they put the names of their next of kin. Sometimes papers to
be forwarded were included. The bums in turn carried little notes on their
person reading: "In case of death tell Sammy Fuchs to open Envelope 17." Or
Envelope 11, or whatever the identifying number would be.

"I sent off dozens of telegrams," Sammy told me. "I never looked at anything
except the address. I know one envelope contained papers which were supposed
to secure a big estate for a Skid Row woman's illegitimate son. She told me
about it before she died and I hope the kid got it. I sent one telegram to a
rich Pennsylvania banker to tell him his son rolled off an East River pier
and drowned."

Early this year burglars broke into Sammy's saloon and carted off the safe
which held the envelopes.

Sammy runs a Bowery saloon that has a dual personality. From 8:00 A.M. to
8:00 P.M. it is just another Skid Row dive. From 9:00 P.M. to 4:00 A.M. it
becomes a sight-seeing mecca for thrill-hungry out-of-towners. The hour
between eight and nine is used to clean the place up and create atmosphere
by lining up prop Bowery characters. After nine o'clock ancient entertainers
sing with great gusto, and a benevolent old man, well into his sixties,
plays the meanest piano I've heard in a long time.

Experiments in Rehabilitation

Sammy has made an interesting experiment in rehabilitating Skid Road
characters the country over. He straightens them out, buys them clothes,
pays a month's rent and gets them a job. He estimates it costs him about
$350 per man to do a complete job. He has experimented thusly 18 times and
claims four of his rehabilitation projects are still off Skid Row.

"You can't let 'em live on Skid Row and expect 'em to stay sober when they
see all their friends drunk," says Fuchs.

Another Fuchs theory-"The only ones who have a chance to straighten out are
the young ones"- is an opinion universally shared by policemen and judges
all over the country. The scientists at the Yale Plan Clinic, where the
problem is being studied carefully, confirm that they young are not beyond
redemption, but in measured academic tones Yale suggests that Sammy, the
cops and the judges are nuts. "A young alcoholic has very little reason to
want to sober up," they point out. "He has never experienced the rewards of
a normal life-family, children and a job."

According to Dr. Robert V. Seliger, first-rate psychiatrist and executive
director of the National Committee on Alcohol Hygiene, Inc., 30 to 40 out of
every 100 alcoholics may be helped back to health by modern psychiatric
treatment. They are sick in the same way that a man may fall ill of
pneumonia, or smallpox, or diabetes.

As Dr. Seliger points out, alcohol itself does not cause alcoholism. To the
millions of Americans who drink regularly or occasionally without letting
alcohol interfere with their lives, liquor is a refreshment, a part and a
symbol of gracious living. But most alcoholics drink to excess seeking
escape from emotional ills.

Missions do what they can to help the sick and despondent on Skid Row. They
are everywhere there, beckoning all with signs of gold and blinking neon.
But to the men on the rows, they represent only a place a man can get a
soup, coffee and bread.

I entered a mission on Sunday afternoon. Services had started, but I was
greeted by a preacher. "Welcome, brother," he said. "Get yourself a book."

I got a hymnal and took my place among 20 other men. Fifteen were Skid Row
bums, clean, hung-over, shaking and miserable. The other five were
well-dressed by any standards. Four were businessmen who had been saved from
Skid Row. One was a visiting clergyman who had come to listen to the sermon.

We sang three hymns. Then the businessmen rose in turn to tell their
stories. A sermon followed this, and when it was ended, the preacher asked
whether anyone felt called upon to speak up. The room was redolent with the
aroma of hot soup and coffee, and the hungry men were concentrating on that.
There was no thought of talk.

We sang three more hymns and then it was time for grace. The minister said
it, trying not to look self-conscious as he gazed down at the bowed and
frowsy heads of his sick and hungry congregation.

After that the men rose and formed a line for a tin cup of soup, a half cup
of coffee and a slice of bread. They gulped the food and left hurriedly.

Alcoholics Anonymous Gives Aid

Hard-working members of Alcoholics Anonymous are another force for good
along Skid Row. Faith is especially mentioned in six of the 12 steps of the
program for recovery the organization uses.

Alcoholics Anonymous is everywhere, in the jails, the courtrooms and the
hospitals. Sometimes A.A. members are received with open arms by officials,
sometimes they are brushed off as tiresome nuisances. They keep insisting
that a drunk doesn't belong in jail, and that, when he does get to a
hospital, he should receive the same care he might expect if he were a
well-to-do citizen.

New York City is a case in perfect point, illustrating the conflict in
official attitudes. At Bellevue Hospital A.A. are sometimes brushed off by
some busy and impatient doctor. "I didn't spend half my life studying
medicine merely to take care of weak-willed drunks," he will complain. But
at Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn, run by the same City of New York,
A.A.'s are welcomed Its members and interested doctors sit in joint
committee to see how they can better cooperate in helping the penniless
alcoholic.

The district attorney of San Francisco bows a reverent head in the direction
of the "South of Market" chapter of A.A. which works in Skid Row. In Los
Angeles, A.A. teams of two patrol the Lincoln Heights court 24 hours a day
and any Skid Row bum who needs a cup of coffee or a double-header of rye to
stave off the d.t.'s gets them and no questions. The "Alinon Club" in Newark
is fighting the good fight in a rough part of the country. "Alinon" has to
its credit the rare case of a woman who spent 16 years on Skid Row and has
been "dry" two years now.

In New York City the Twelfth Step House at 53 Barrow Street has turned an
apartment house basement into a refuge for any man or woman who is willing
to walk the short distance from Skid Row. He can get anything that a group
of human beings who are themselves pretty poor can give him: food, a suit of
clothes, a job and that precious thing, an understanding ear.

Twelfth Step House was started by an A.A. who wanted to do something for
what his group calls "low-bottom drinkers." A "high-bottom drinker" is an
alcoholic who has a little money, a home and some friends to help him
through his travail. A "low-bottom" is one who has nothing. Last January
this man, who is not rich, paid $50 to cover a month's rent on a basement
which had been unoccupied since prohibition.

Other A.A.'s pledged one, two, or five dollars a month to keep it going. It
is open from noon to midnight. A Skid Row drunk walks in and he is soon
talking to an A.A. who can truthfully top any story of degradation or
misfortune the bum can tell about himself. He is given coffee and food, and,
if he volunteers a request for help in sobering up, a silk-smooth operation
begins.

First he has to "sweat it out." That's a three or four day process during
which a man gets sobered up first and then goes through the agonies of the
dammed, fighting against a nervous system which screams for a drink. While
he is "sweating it out," A.A. veterans of the same sort of personal hell
talk to him, listen to him, walk with him through the night and even buy him
a double-header if their expert eyes tell them his system must have a little
alcohol. When sleep comes at last he is taken to a flophouse and his new
friends buy him a night's lodging.

When the "sweating out" period is finished, the man gets a suit of clothes
and a job. Twelfth Street House has an arrangement with a half-dozen
hospitals to hire men it recommends. Since January more than 150 Skid Row
drunks have been straightened out and returned to work through its efforts.

A.A. flatly refuses to compile statistics about cures it has effected
because its axiom is, "An alcoholic is cured only when he is buried."

Every night 35 to 50 former Skid Row bums can be seen at Twelfth Step House.
They sit around talking or listening to impromptu speeches-academic
discussions of the problems involved in fighting alcohol. Talk and
companionship are the very heart of the A.A. technique.

Everybody helps everybody else. I saw an old man hustle in and survey the
room. He spotted a young fellow who was with a group which was heatedly
discussing the effects of "sneaky-pete," a generic term for fortified wines.
He nodded the boy away from the group and excitedly whispered, "there's a
dishwashing job open up on Twenty-third Street. I couldn't take it on
account of my bum arm. But I told them you'd be right up. Six bucks." The
boy got his cap and was gone in half a minute.

Employed Make Contributions

No working member of Twelve Step ever enters the place without a couple of
loaves of bread and perhaps a half bologna under his arm. They all try to
contribute to the kitty, but one of the few rules of the place is "No
contributions from men working one-night stands. Okay from those steadily
employed."

The policeman is the Skid Row bum's mortal enemy; he is as frequently his
only friend. My own experience with policemen in the Skid Rows of America
ran along the same line. In Chicago, Captain Graney told me, "We don't want
you writing about Chicago's Skid Row. But you're going to write about it
anyway, so we'll answer every question you ask us. Of course we're ashamed
of our Skid Row, but if you can figure out an answer, you're smarter than I
think you are. We give the bums all the protection we can. It's not enough,
I guess. Still, if you assigned a cop to every bum on Skid Row, the bums
would still get in trouble."

In San Francisco, Captain Leo Tackney of the Southern Station glowered at me
and said, "I'm not going to tell you anything and neither is any of my men.
It's bad for San Francisco. If you go into Skid Row, you go at your own
risk. If you take any pictures, you'll do it at your own peril." I told the
captain that the pictures would be taken. I also assured him I was going
through his Skid Row.

Three separate times I walked all over San Francisco, rated by many as
America's most charming city, always with the feeling I was being followed.
I lost that feeling only after I dropped in for a chat with District
Attorney Pat Brown. The D.A. agreed that Skid Row was bad for San Francisco
but he also felt it would be much worse if people stopped trying to do
something about it.

I later learned why Captain Tackney was so irate. It seems they are making a
movie about Skid Row-U.S.A. and the producer of the film has chosen Captain
Tackney's precinct as the locale of the epic. It is a choice with which no
man would quarrel.

I tried one more police department. That was in New Orleans. When I had
finished my conduced tour in that city, I was stumped.

The first day in town I had asked kind and expert friends to tell me where
New Orleans' Skid Row or rows were. They told me and I made arrangements to
visit the jungle the next day in the company of a police department expert.
However, there was not a bum to be see anywhere, not even in the jails.
Later I visited the same areas unaccompanied and found all the bums I ever
wanted to see. I asked them where they had been all afternoon. They said it
had been real hot, so they stayed off the streets.

No young man ever took up police work in anticipation of a career that would
be spent chaperoning Skid Row bums. It is not surprising, therefore, that
those assigned the task sometimes go about their duties with a maximum of
muscle and a minimum of persuasion. But for every cop who makes enemies of
the men he is supposed to help, there are two like Chicago's Steve Wilson
and Los Angeles' William Shurley. And there is the immortal "Book-Him" John
McGinnis, also of Chicago. "Book-Him" John is now relieved of his arduous
Skid Row chores and works with children, but his name is still revered on
the nation's Skid Rows.

When a bum put in a hitch as a gandy-dancer with the railroad-the name
traces back to the jiglike step used in tamping down the track beds-and
quit, got fired, or finished his unwelcome job, he headed back to Chicago.
He might have a couple of hundred dollars in his pocket and the unhappy
knowledge that he would blow it all in a night if left to his own customs
and habits. So he would seek out McGinnis and turn over the major part of
his money to him. "Book-Him" John doled it out until it was gone, and after
that John was always good for a touch.

The officer never lost a nickel through these loans. Usually the debtor paid
off at the first opportunity. But id he went off on the railroad again or
took to the hobo jungles, John would pass the word along that he was in
default. The debtor would hear about it from every Chicago resident who
crossed his trail. And if he found himself overlong in arrears, he also
found himself barred from the mulligan stew, the bottle and the
companionship of his fellow hobos or gandy-dancers.

McGinnis was a one-man warrant squad on Skid Row. If any flop resident was
wanted, John only had to pass the word. "Tell McCarthy to get over to the
station house. Somebody is looking for him." "Somebody" could be a relative,
a friend, an insurance adjuster or even a warrant. It didn't matter. If
McGinnis sent out the word, McCarthy came ambling into the police station
within an hour.

Every morning, when the unhappy contents of a jail's drunk tank were lined
up before a judge, McGinnis would stand at the court's elbow. Theoretically
he was there to identify the bums, but in practice he would make
recommendations. "Ah now, this is a nice lad, Judge," John would say as a
shivering hang-over stood before the bench. "A nice lad. He's been working
and only been on Skid Row a couple of days. Let him go, Judge."

The next might hear, "Judge, this fellow's a nice lad but he's been laying
around six months. He needs a doctor, Judge. Send him away for a while."

But John's favorite expression and the basis for his nickname was, "Now
here's a lad been laying about drunk for six months. But a nice lad. Let me
take care of him, Judge. I'll book him." John would wave the man aside until
the court recessed. Then the man, along with several colleagues, would be
shepherded to a group of railroad labor representatives and John would
persuade them to book the derelicts for gandy-dancing jobs.

Chicago's Steve Watson is in the McGinnis mold. He's in court every morning
with his advice. 90 per cent of it compassionate. I did hear him say to
Judge Edward Pluczak, as one man came up for sentencing, "Judge, this is one
of the best thieves this side of the Mississippi." The man got the
equivalent of 30 days when he sullenly refused an offer to rebut Watson's
estimate.

Steve walks his beat amid an endless salvo of greetings. When his charges
attempt to shake hands, as they frequently do, Steve shows them his gloved
hands and begs off with some excuse about a skin ailment.

I saw a young man laid out cold on Madison Street. He looked dead to me.
Steve bent over him, applied some pressure behind his ears, and bloodshot
eyes opened in an ashen face. The man managed a pathetic smile, "Hello
Steve," he said. "Please help me up, will you?"

In Los Angeles, William Shurley has earned the confidence of his charges. He
will say to a man, "You're pretty bad off. I want go to go in. Stand over by
that lamppost until the wagon comes by." The man will stagger to the
lamppost and wait until the patrol wagon, making its endless rounds,
appears.

Out-of-Bounds for Bums

Most cities have off-limits areas for bums. The Skid Row resident who
crosses Texas Avenue in Houston does so at his own peril; or he can expect a
good clout if found panhandling around New York's Times Square. He is
supposed to stay "south of the slot" in San Francisco; and in Kansas City he
passes the Kay Hotel at his own risk. Boston cleans out its Skid Rows by
making periodic promises of a year in Bridgewater for vagrants and drunks
who are apprehended.

Some police departments attempt to enforce a "keep-moving" policy. I heard a
crippled beggar, of extraordinarily handsome features and cleanliness, plead
with a judge to let him off. "I've got relatives in Detroit and I'm going
back to see them."

The judge said, "You're not going back to Detroit and you know it. If you
do, Hitler and Mussolini will get you." The men who were lined up behind the
cripple smiled. The cripple himself grinned one of those
"you-ain't-just-talking-judge" grins. "Hitler and Mussolini" are a couple of
Detroit policemen who have dedicated themselves to keeping Detroit's Skid
Row population as fluid as possible.

No city overpatrols its Skid Row. Most municipalities seem to ignore their
jungles. There is a universal theory among law-enforcement men that there is
little or no crime on Skid Row. They couldn't possibly be more wrong.

The major criminal is the "roller," "jack-roller" or "mugger." He is the
same man operating under a different name in different parts of the country.
He steals shoes, shirts, pants, and even the underwear of his victims.
Usually prey is too drunk to know, but sometimes he attempts to resist and
is hurt. I staked a battered old wreck in Kansas City, but when he saw me go
to my pocket he said, "I'll meet you around the corner. If those guys see
you give me anything, I'll get jack-rolled."

Almost any man found dead in Skid Row without a bullet or a knife in him
died of "natural causes" so far as the cops are concerned. Public statistics
keep tab on murders and since police efficiency is judged by those
statistics, the cops try to avoid any additional unsolved homicides among
the nonentities of Skid Row.

Before going into the details of how murder is committed on Skid Row, it is
necessary to understand that the resistance and physical condition of most
alcoholics is tremendously substandard. They hurt easily, they cure slowly
and assistance comes tardily if at all. Nobody knows whether a man curled up
in the hallway is suffering from too much sherry or a cracked skull.

Fist fights are common on Skid Row. Bottles make excellent weapons and they
are everywhere. Bartenders and flophouse bouncers are busy men who
frequently have only enough time to practice a bit of rudimentary jujitsu to
invoke order and then "leave 'em lay." And of course the "jack-roller" takes
many a life for a pair of shoes or the nickel and three pennies to be found
in a bum's pocket.

Police Keep Watchful Eye

In most cities a patrol wagon, manned by policemen called "ragpickers,"
makes regular rounds collecting the pugnacious and the man so drunk he may
stagger into a moving trolley car or truck. Bums who are sleeping it off are
rarely bothered, unless they have bedded down in front of the chamber of
commerce. New Orleans sends out the wagon on call. The Second Precinct
there, covering the beloved French Quarter, speaks proudly of an elderly
client who regularly telephones and says, "Sergeant, send the wagon for me.
The usual corner."

New Orleans and Los Angeles give the pick-up bum a chance to sleep it off
before subjecting him to formal arrest. He gets a flat six hours. If he can
make the 5:00 A.M. "kick-out" line and sign a false-arrest waiver, he is
freed. In most other cities he must face the judge.

The police, the magistrates and the victims all agree that this is an
expensive and useless procedure excused only by the fact that a man in the
drunk tank is less likely to be injured.

Drunk tanks are the same the country over and they are shameful. Most of
them have no facilities beyond bare, cold floors. The police claim they
would be delighted to install cots and rudimentary plumbing, but the
condition of the prisoners makes such sharp and unyielding objects a serious
menace.

When court convenes, the night's haul is herded into a special corner of the
room. The non-Skid Row citizens who seek justice are separated and their
cases, usually domestic quarrels and landlord-tenant disagreements, are
heard first. Then the Skid Row group is lined up before the bar.

The air of frustration that hangs over the courtroom defies description. The
long weaving line of hang-overs is wrapped in hopelessness; the judge is
baffled; so too are the prosecuting attorneys and the police. Everybody is
licked and knows it.

Names are called and men answer. The old-timers-a history of 200 arrests
calls for no undue interest-are resigned; the youngsters are frightened; and
the rare gentleman from the proper side of the railroad tracks is confident
he can talk himself free, even though he looks about pprehensively in fear
that he may see an old acquaintance, such as his wife.

A few of the old-timers shrug, plead guilty and hope for the best. Most of
them give it a bit of battle: "I've got a job waiting for me, Judge," or,
"I'm getting out of town tonight, Your Honor," or "I'm a hard working man,
Judge. I just slipped a little last night." If the judge has enough
interest, he will ask the hard worker to show him the palms of his hands.
Calluses will support his story.

Frequently a man says, "Please, Judge, give me 30 days." Invariably it is to
get hospital treatment for wounds or infections. Occasionally it's a
desperate effort to get sober or something to eat. But generally the men are
frantic to avoid jail.

It's a dreary procession spotted occasionally with high drama. I heard the
father of a young newspaperman plead with a judge, "We have $15,000 to
assure my boy complete medical and psychiatric treatment, Your Honor."

Before the Judge could answer, the boy spoke, "Father, please. You know and
I know it's just a waste of money." His father left, weeping, as the boy
took another 30-day sentence.

A twenty-one-year-old ex-G.I., hungover and petrified, answered all
questions in a quavering voice, his head hanging. He was asked what kind of
a discharge he possessed. His head came up, he straightened and his voice
was firm as he answered, "An honorable discharge, sir."

In Los Angeles the court told a young woman who had been picked up several
times, "I'm going to send you to jail to sober up."

"No, Judge, please don't do that," she begged. "I'm in Sister Essie's show
tonight. I've got a big part. I'm a very important angel." The important
angel was freed to take her place in the religious pageant at Sister Essie's
Skid Row mission.

Judge Edward Pluczak, of the Desplaines Street Municipal Court in Chicago,
looks like a tough Army sergeant, but he is surprisingly gentle. He told me,
"I'm sick and tired of meeting boyhood friends, college pals and members of
the Chicago bar whom I once idolized. Sending these people to jail doesn't
do any good. What I need is a non-prison farm where they could go to sober
up. Nobody ever gave up liquor in a cell block."

San Francisco's realistic district attorney, Pat Brown, is in complete
agreement with Judge Pluczak. Brown's theories are particularly apropos
because his bailiwick is the drinkingest city in the United States,
according to surveys published by Brown's own office. "I want a half million
dollars to set up a rehabilitation center that is not a jail," Brown told
me. "I want to stop the practice of tossing alcoholics in jail or freeing
them to get stiff all over again. We won't straighten out very many, but if
we can rehabilitate 10 per cent, the experiment will be cheap." All four of
San Francisco's newspapers support Brown. Alcoholics Anonymous, Stanford and
California universities are behind him, too.

Brown laughed and said, "I'll probably never be elected dogcatcher after
saying this, but they're doing a magnificent job across the bay in Oakland."

Brown isn't the only one with an eye on the Oakland project. They are
watching iy at Yale, too. And they are watching it wherever municipal
officals do not feel that Skid Row is something that should be kicked under
the rug and ruled out of public discussions.

California Experiment Promising

Alameda County, which is Oakland, has rented an unused military installation
for $1 a year. It is called the Santa Rita Rehabilitation Center and covers
3,300 acres. Alcoholics are given a choice of jail, or the Center. It is not
as obvious a choice as you might think, because at Santa Rita there are 550
acres of vegetables under cultivation and that means hard work for the
physically fit.

Most of the inmates are sent there for 90 days but it is not a jail. When a
man gets himself straightened out and healthy he can leave in less that 90
days. Alameda County Sheriff Jack Gleason says, "We give them psychiatric
assistance, work and an opportunity to build up their health. I won't say
how well the plan is working because it's too new. Give me two years. But it
looks pretty good, so far."

To spare their sensibilities, the Skid Row patients at Santa Rita were
separated from other inmates. The Skid Row group complained against this
discrimination. "We're as good as they are," they argued. Now all mix
together, and psychiatrists and policemen agree it is better that way.

Raymond McCarthy, executive director of the Yale Plan Clinic, thinks Oakland
is on the right path. He told me, "The punitive approach to the Skid Row
problem accomplishes nothing beyond making a city look neater.

"But," he added, "the majority cannot be helped by treatment on an
out-patient level. They must be isolated for medical and psychiatric study.
Jail is no good. Prison farms are just as bad. The Skid Row bum, to be
saved, must have supervised freedom." McCarthy admitted "supervised freedom"
is a top-notch contradiction in terms. "The sad fact seems to be," he said,
"that these men and women must be institutionalized in an institution that
doesn't exist today."

To that, and to all that went before it, I can add only this: I didn't meet
anybody on Skid Row who liked it. I didn't meet anybody who ever expected to
leave it alive. I didn't meet anybody who deserved to be there. It is a
world of the living dead and an utterly fantastic exhibition of man's
cruelty to man. It deserves as much study and research as cancer or heart
disease because, like those scourges, it can happen to you and yours.

THE END

(Sidebar)

An Editorial

Skid row, U.S.A., is the end of the line. When a man gets there he can't go
any lower. He can only go up-or out. Helping him up is not easy, for he is
one of the most perplexing members of society, as well as one of the most
pathetic. He is neither insane nor a criminal, but a man who has surrendered
to adversity and sought oblivion at the rock-bottom social level.

Alcoholism is the first and most evident obstacle to getting him back on the
beam. But, as William J. Slocum suggests in this article and the preceding
one, alcohol most likely is not the only problem, or even the basic one. It
may only be a symptom. It is easy to say that drink has driven a man to Skid
Row. But what drove him to drink?

That question can never be answered easily. Sometimes it cannot be answered
at all. But an encouraging number of men are being helped to find the answer
as the understanding of their problems increases. One of the leading
contributors to that understanding is Alcoholics Anonymous, where a man who
still wants to come back can find inspiration and advice from others who
have overcome desperate difficulties that most of us cannot even imagine.

The story of Skid Row is not new or pleasant. But it presents a situation
that has to be faced. Intelligent studies like Mr. Slocum's can help society
to regard the inhabitants of Skid Row not as congenital bums, but as
troubled, unhappy men who, with patient and intelligent aid, may perhaps
resume their places as useful citizens.

Source: Collier's, September 3, 1949

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2408. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First 100 members
From: Roger Wheatley . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2005 3:23:00 PM

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It would appear that the statistics in the Forward were "fuzzy logic" based
on
the authors perception of success, likely embellished some. There were not
actually 100 men and women, but rather close to this number and only a few
women. This was marketing spin.
Those whose stories appeared in the First Edition who later returned to
drinking
would not have been yet considered part of the number which returned to
drinking. This may point out a fallacy in some schools of thought which
claim
that the great success rate in early AA is attributable to a difference in
quality or philosophy.
The gentleman you cite as a reference [Clancy I.] is not necessarily a
historian. In a similar talk he shared that the Oxford Groups and the Oxford
Movement were basically the same thing and the difference was largely
semantic.
Many members of this group will understand that this is not true.

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++++Message 2409. . . . . . . . . . . . List of movies on A.A. and
alcoholism
From: lessspamplease . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2005 9:02:00 PM

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I would add the recent movie "Sideways" to your list. The main
character was (in my opinion) an alcoholic - although I don't believe
that term was ever used in the movie.

Eric

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++++Message 2410. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sotheby''s manuscript
From: David Grant . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2005 4:25:00 PM

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Hi Rick,

This very subject came up in a conversation last week with my grand-sponsor.
He
knows the buyer personally and shared that he is a collector and has no
though
of breaking apart the manuscript (as many have feared) and intends to keep
it as
part of a private collection. Keep in mind that this is second generation
information, though I have no reason to doubt it authenticity.

Cheers,

David

-------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- From: <ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sotheby's manuscript

Many of us recall the $1.56 milion paid last June for the final Feb. 1939
working draft of the Big Book, with its accepted bid telephoned in to
Sotheby's
from California. What's become of the archival item and its buyer?
Rick T. Illinois

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++++Message 2411. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: how many original members died
drunk
From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2005 5:40:00 PM

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Hello Group

I have the following quote about this on one of the 3 x 5 cards I use for a
35mm
slideshow on the history of the Big Book.

"of the 28 veterans (and the article called them veterans) 5 went out and
did
not return; 8 Slipped after the Big Book was published, but returned to AA
and
15 remained sober."

However I did not include a source on the card. I remember it was something
that came out of New York. I thought it was the Box 459 that came out at the
same time the 4th edition was published, but could not find the figures in
the
articles of that issue. I am thinking now it must have been another article
from some other issue of Box 459.

Charles

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++++Message 2412. . . . . . . . . . . . [AAHistoryLovers] Areas in AA
organizational structure
From: billherold1017@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/15/2005 5:17:00 AM

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I was asked a question last night at a meeting and did not know the answer.
Does anyone know who came up with the idea of using Areas for the structure
of
AA as opposed to dividing the country into States?

bill H,

Area 29

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++++Message 2413. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarification on Marty Mann
reference
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2005 2:10:00 AM

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----------------------------------

Message 2391 from "dinobb_dinobb" <dinobb_dinobb@yahoo.com> asked about some
of
the people whose stories were put at the back of the original manuscript who
died drunk. "The ones that stand out are Bill R., Hank P., Ernie G. I know
about
stories in the pioneering section -- Marty M. discontinued sobriety, etc."

----------------------------------

Jon Markle pointed out to me that people might be confused by this way of
phrasing the Marty Mann reference and that they might mistakenly think that
she
died drunk, which was definitely NOT true.

The story of Mrs. Marty Mann, the first woman to obtain long term sobriety
in
AA, was not in the first edition of the Big Book, so in fact her name
shouldn't
be included in this particular list anyway. "Women Suffer Too" was only
inserted
into the Big Book in the second edition.

But at any rate, Marty did have a brief slip somewhere around 1960. When a
young
woman in AA (from Bronxville) drove down to pay a visit on Marty, she found
Marty drunk. The young woman put Marty in her station wagon and took her
back
home with her, where the young woman kept Marty there in Bronxville until
Marty
sobered up again.

Marty had been sober since the end of 1940. After this brief slip somewhere
around 1960, she never had another drink. She died sober on July 22, 1980.

See Sally Brown and David R. Brown, A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The
First
Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous, pp. 262 ff.

Also in referring to Ernie G. we need to distinguish carefully between the
two
Ernie's. The index to Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers refers to the one who
could
not stay sober as "Ernie G. the first of Akron."

See Children of the Healer p. 51, where Dr. Bob's daughter Sue describes her
marriage to Ernie G. the first of Akron in September 1941, beginning with
the
lines: "Ernie was drunk when we got married. He'd stepped off the wagon --
again."

The other Ernie is referred to as "Ernie G. the second of Toledo," a very
fine
man, who not only stayed sober to the end of his life, but brought many
excellent people into the program. This second Ernie for example at one
point
sponsored Larry W., the man who brought me into the program, and Larry used
to
talk about him with such enormous love and admiration.

Glenn

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2414. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Areas in AA organizational
structure
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2005 6:40:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, billherold1017@a... wrote:
> I was asked a question last night at a meeting and did not know
the answer. Does anyone know who came up with the idea of using
Areas for the structure of AA as opposed to dividing the country
into States?
>
> bill H,
>
> Area 29

In the pamphlet YOUR THIRD LEGACY WILL YOU ACCEPT IT? (November
1950), Bill sets out (pp. 16-17) "Panel No. 1 TO BE INVITED IN 1951"
with columns for "State or Province" (such as "Pennsylvania")
and "Point of Assembly" (such as "Philadelphia" "Pittsburgh"). The
same headings ("State or Province" and "Point of Assembly") are
given for "Panel No. 2 TO BE INVITED IN 1952" (pp. 17-18). Then on
p. 18 is listed "Panel No. 2 (Supplemental) ADDITIONAL 1952
REPRESENTATION FROM SPECIAL AREAS (SUGGESTED)" which includes (for
example) "Pennsylvania [in italics] Harrisburg." On p. 19 is the
following NOTE: "Where large centers are near state or national
boundaries, there seems no good reason why Groups in adjoining areas
may not cross these lines to elect Delegates. For example, at
Detroit, Mich., Kansas City, Mo., Buffalo, N.Y., etc." It would
appear that the term "area" is Bill's and the division into areas
rather than states is present at the beginning, in 1950. Btw the
two parts of Pennsylvania (Harrisburg never got its "area") were for
quite a while known as "Pennsylvania" and "Western Pennsylvania." --
Jared Lobdell

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++++Message 2415. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarification on Marty Mann
reference
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2005 7:05:00 AM

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I was pleasantly surprised to read Glenn's comment about the second Ernie
G.,
who was one of the founding members here in Toledo. I knew Ernie, heard him
speak, and had a number of conversations with him about AA's pioneering
times.
He lived in Adrian, Michigan, during his final years.
I've heard that Ernie may have been AA #69 or #70. He claimed Dr. Bob as his
sponsor and knew most of the early Akron members, since he was living near
Akron
when he got sober. He was, indeed, a very fine man, and he was
representative
of the kind of AA who finds the program and then stays the course until the
end.
Mel Barger
-------------------------
Larry W., who brought me into the program, said that when he first came in,
he
walked into an AA room, and he saw an old man, "and he just glowed." That
was
Ernie G. of course. And he says that Ernie told him, "Larry, you will never
need to betray yourself again."
And that line has stuck in my own mind ever since, as part of the deep
wisdom of
old-time AA. I try to remind myself frequently of what those words mean.
Ernie
G. is one of those whom I have never met, but who has deeply affected my own
life.
Glenn Chesnut

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++++Message 2416. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom P. Passes Away
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2005 7:56:00 AM

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Dear Friends,

On April 27, at 12:01am Thomas E. Powers of Hankins, N.Y. died very
peacefully at home. Tom was sponsored at different times by both Dr.
Bob and Bill W., he worked at G.S.O., and he helped Bill W. write
the AA 12 & 12. He was a great man. He is survived by his one son,
four daughters, and many grandchildren. His family carried out his
wishes for a private funeral and was buried in Callicoon N.Y.

Cards or flowers may be sent to:

The Powers Family
190 Ridge Road
Hankins, NY 12741

Thank you for your support and prayers.

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++++Message 2417. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Areas in AA organizational
structure
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/17/2005 9:35:00 AM

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Bill wrote
Does anyone know who came up with the idea of using Areas for the
structure of AA as opposed to dividing the country into States?

Bill Wilson. I have a tape of him explaining how it was done and it involves
population densities.
Jim

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++++Message 2418. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Lois drive the motorcycle?
From: morefromles2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/18/2005 5:04:00 PM

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Yes, Lois did drive the cycle. See PASS IT ON pg 70, which says, "... and in
the sidecar, perched on top of it all, Bill himself, draped and dangling
over
the cowl. Lois was driving."

I saw that motorcycle in the barn at the Burnham House in Manchester,
Vermont.
I lived in that house briefly as a child, and Rogers lived with my family
then
and for several years. I have written a short article about my related
history.
I am now aged 80 and live in Colorado Springs, CO. Regards.... Les Cole

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++++Message 2419. . . . . . . . . . . . Recipe for sobriety
From: Tony . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2005 11:37:00 AM

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Would anyone happen to know the "recipe" that Dr. Bob used when making
his concoction of tomatoes, sauerkraut, and Karo syrup? I'm looking for
measurements and did he just blend it or what?

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++++Message 2420. . . . . . . . . . . . man who mastered fear
From: dinobb3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2005 1:13:00 PM

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CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE RELATIONSHIP WAS BETWEEN ARCH
TOWBRIDGE AND SARAH KLEIN.

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++++Message 2421. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: man who mastered fear
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2005 8:06:00 AM

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From: "dinobb3" <dinobb3@yahoo.com> "CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE
RELATIONSHIP WAS BETWEEN ARCH TOWBRIDGE AND SARAH KLEIN."

Sarah Klein was Archie's landlady during his early months of recovery in
Detroit, after he had returned from staying with Dr. Bob and Anne in Akron
for
almost a year. She became so enthusiastic about AA that she permitted Archie
to
hold meetings in her home. This earned her great praise in Detroit and I
recall
seeing her being applauded at large meetings in Detroit in the 1950s. She
was
never a member herself, just a good friend who believed in Archie and AA.
I did shake hands once with Archie but did not know him. The No. 2 AA in
Detroit was Mike Eshleman, who became a wealthy manufacturer after being
fired
in a very humiliating way from a place where he'd worked many years.
I attended Mike's 40th AA anniversary meeting in 1978 in Grosse Pointe,
Michigan, an exclusive suburb of Detroit. Archie had passed on but his
brother
attended the party.

From Mel Barger, who experienced great AA in Pontiac and Detroit in the
1950s.

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++++Message 2422. . . . . . . . . . . . Doctor''s Opinion and first 164
pages
From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2005 10:37:00 AM

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Could anybody tell me why "The Doctor's Opinion" is not part of the first
164
pages of the Big Book?

Many Thanks

Carl P

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++++Message 2423. . . . . . . . . . . . Recovery based plays
From: Cheryl Campbell . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2005 4:41:00 AM

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I know there is a play on the traditions (I think I have a copy of that
one)but
I have also been told there are other plays based on Alcoholics
Anonymous. Does anyone know where I can get a hold of them?

Cheryl Campbell

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++++Message 2424. . . . . . . . . . . . What city, psychiatrist, and
hospital?
From: jimbernlohr . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2005 9:20:00 AM

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Questions on the Big Book, on page 163, "A Vision For You":

lines 13-14:
"more alcoholics per square mile than any city in the country."
What city?

line 26: chief psychiatrist of a large public hospital.
Name of doctor and hospital?

last line on pg. 163:
"When a few men in this city"
Again what city?

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++++Message 2425. . . . . . . . . . . . Communications between Lois & Rogers
From: morefromles2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2005 3:32:00 PM

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Does anyone know if there any letters in the archives between Lois
and Rogers between 1930 and later? Rog lived with us in Manchester
and in Wallingford, VT and he became a partner with my father in a
woodworking mill in Arlington around 1935 (Date not clear). I was a
child around 8-10 years old. When we lived in Wallingford Rog spent
one Christmas in New York and returnd to us with presents after
Christmas. Barbara and Cy visited us in Manchester around 1930-31.
Dr Burnham also visted us. I met Ebby there also and was in his
house. Ebby's family house was around the corner from the Burnham
house. My mother went to High school with both Bill Wilson & Ebby
at Burr & Burton there in Manchester. We all, includng Rog, spent
a summer in the Burnham Camp on Lake Emerald, also. Rog had injured
his foot at that time. The well known motorcycle which Lois and
Bill used years earlier was stored in the barn at the Manchester
house. My brother and I thought it was pretty neat. Although Bill
and Lois visted the Manchester house when I lived there, my mother
did not want us boys to see Bill because she knew of his drinking
problem. I appreciate any information about communications between
Rog and Lois. Thanks. Les Cole..... I'm a native Vermonter and
knew East Dorset quite well. I am now living in Colorado Springs at
Age 80. My regular E-Mail is elsietwo@msn.com

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++++Message 2426. . . . . . . . . . . . Jim S. Son Of A Country Physician pg
232 4th Edition
From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2005 12:15:00 AM

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A member in my home group has asked if I could find out what happened
to Jim S., the "son of the country physician."

See "Jim's Story," beginning on page 232 in the 4th edition, the story of
the
physician who was one of the members of the first black AA group.

Can anybody help me with this question?

Many Thanks

Carl P.

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++++Message 2427. . . . . . . . . . . . Open meetings and closed meetings
From: lorenzo . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2005 12:42:00 AM

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Dear friends, can you refer me to anything on the origin of the "blue
card" with the closed meeting definition on one side of it and the
open meeting definition on the other. Maybe it was in the Grapevine I
read something about this. My home group is a closed meeting and the
issue of women alcoholics bringing a child with them to a meeting has
come up. Also what to do when a family member is there for "support."
You know how divisive this issue can be.

When I try to imagine the earliest days in AA I can't imagine Lois
would have tolerated working all day in a department store and then
not being allowed to go to a meeting of alcoholics in her own home.

When did this defined division of meetings into closed and open
occur?

Thank you AAHistoryLovers for any response to help our group with
some historic background to the issue we're now dealing with.

Larry G. in Placitas, New Mexico (meeting is in Bernalillo).

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++++Message 2428. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Doctor''s Opinion and first 164
pages
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2005 10:43:00 PM

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Carl wrote: <Could anybody tell me why "The Doctor's Opinion" is not part of
the first 164 pages of the Big Book?>

Because "The Doctor's Opinion" is just that, an opinion of a non-alcoholic.
The
first 164 pages is an account of our experiences.

Jim

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++++Message 2429. . . . . . . . . . . . Twenty-Four Hours a Day author
From: rmcmillan5630 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2005 2:09:00 PM

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I was reading the Twenty-Four Hours a Day book published by Hazelden
and a fellow AA member suggested I not read it because the author
committed suicide. Since a well-respected long-timer told him this, I
am curious about the author and his story.

Anyone out there know the author and his or her story? I'd be very
grateful.

rm

------------------------

RM,

Oh please do not repeat this story! Definitely untrue. I don't know how
these
weird things get started. I'm sure glad you wrote in to check on it.

Rich was one of the truly good and fine AA old-timers, and his book has
helped
countless people get sober.

Rich died of old age on Mar. 25, 1965, at the age of 72, with 22 years of
sobriety. Mel B. has spoken with one of his children, and says that Rich's
family are all enormously proud of the way he lived his life, and the
invaluable
contribution he made to the AA program.

Rich began printing Twenty-Four Hours a Day himself in 1948, under the
sponsorship of the AA group in Daytona Beach, Florida, and distributing it
from
his basement. Its use quickly began spreading all over the United States,
and
it rapidly became the second most important book in AA. All the good
old-timers
in my part of the country say that they got sober off of two books: the Big
Book
and the 24 Hour book.

Since the 24 Hour book was originally published under the sponsorship of the
AA
group in Daytona Beach, Florida, it has always been considered proper to
read in
AA meetings any place in the country, and is read from at the beginning of
the
meeting in numerous meetings in my part of the Midwest.

(The old-time AA rule was that any book or pamphlet which was published
under
the sponsorship of any AA group or intergroup, could automatically and
without
question be read from in meetings by any other AA group which chose to do
so.
The 24 Hour book, the Little Red Book, and the Detroit/Washington D.C.
pamphlet
all fell into this category, and all of them have been read from in AA
meetings
all over the US and Canada, as well as many other parts of the world, ever
since
they were written.)

In Rich's memoirs, written towards the end of his life, he said that death
was
returning to God, and this was where faith alone could carry us across the
great
divide which separates our world of space and time from the realm of the
eternal
ideas and the infinite reality which lies beyond all else:

"Above all, my faith in the Great Intelligence behind the universe, which
can
give me all the strength I need to face whatever life has to offer, is the
foundation of my present life. When I die, my body will return to dust.
Heaven
is not any particular place in the sky, but my intelligence or soul, if it
is in
the proper condition, will return to the Great Intelligence behind the
universe
and will blend with that Great Intelligence and be at home again whence it
came.
My problem, in what is left of my life, is to keep my mind or intelligence
in
the proper condition -- by living with honesty, purity, unselfishness, love,
and
service -- so that when my time comes to go, my passing to a greater sphere
of
mind will be gentle and easy."

See the photos of him and his family at <http://hindsfoot.org/rwpix1.html>
and
the full story of his life at <http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla1.html>,
<http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla2.html>, and <http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html>.

Also see the other material on Rich at <http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html>
under "Richmond Walker" (near the top of the page, right below the photo of
Bill
and Lois on their motorcycle).

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

------------------------

P.S. Another misunderstanding is very common, so let me say something about
that
issue too. Rich was not associated with the Hazelden alcoholism treatment
center in any way. In fact Hazelden was not even started until after Rich
had
written the 24 Hour book.

When Rich got old, and the demand for the book exceeded his ability to pack
them
up and ship them off from his basement, he asked the New York AA office to
take
over the job. That was at the point where New York was so short of money
that
they could barely get the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions published, and
their attitude toward both Rich and Ed Webster (who offered them the Little
Red
Book) was that any AA group or intergroup which had figured out how to
easily
finance the publishing of an AA book was a whole lot better off financially
than
New York! It wasn't even a serious question as far as New York was
concerned.

At that point, the newly started Hazelden alcoholism treatment center wrote
Rich
and offered to take the responsibility for keeping the book in print.
Hazelden
sometimes tries to give the impression that it is "their" book in some of
their
publicity, but this is certainly not so. It had nothing at all to do with
the
Hazelden Model of alcoholism treatment, and is certainly not a statement of
the
philosophy of the psychotherapists and psychiatrists at Hazelden.

Twenty-Four Hours a Day is simply good old-time AA at its very best.

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++++Message 2430. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard
From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2005 10:33:00 AM

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First of all on behalf of my home group Barking Big Book Study, I wish to
convey
the gratitude of the group. AA History Lovers has helped with a majority of
the
questions raised by Barking Big Book and in doing so has helped the group
grow.
Thank you all.

We as a group are now reading There is a Solution, and we have a two-part
question for AA History Lovers, both concerning Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard.

1) Where Dr Jung replies to Rowland "there are exceptions to cases such as
yours
which have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a
while,
alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To me those
experiences are phenomena......." Can anybody tell me where Dr Jung got this
information from, are there any pre-recorded letters or information about
alcoholics having this vital spiritual experience?

2) We understand that Rowland was with Dr Jung for approximately one year.
Is
there any information about the type of treatment that he received from Dr
Jung.? What did Dr Jung prescribe to him?

Many Thanks, Carl P.

------------------------------------

FROM THE MODERATOR:

1) Carl, I think your first question is asking whether we have any writings
of
Carl Jung, other than this letter to Bill Wilson, in which he talked about
his
theories of alcoholism, and the need for a spiritual solution. So this is
the
first question to put to our group.

2) I can say something about the second question myself. Some time ago, Bill
Pittman at the Hazelden Archives discovered that the Hazard family's papers
were
still in existence, and Bill White (the author of Slaying the Dragon) also
looked at them. Pittman got a college professor named Rich Dubiel to do
further
research on this material, and Dubiel published his findings in 2004. What
came
out was interesting, and has forced us to revise the traditional story about
Rowland and Carl Jung. From Dubiel's summary of his findings:

"Rowland Hazard may in fact have consulted with the Swiss psychiatrist Carl
Jung
for a short period in 1931 (although no longer than two months at most,
based on
the author's study of the Hazard family papers). But Hazard had to be
hospitalized for his alcoholism in February and March of 1932, and then from
January 1933 to October 1934 was again in bad shape and unable to carry on
his
business activities. If Jung had helped, it was certainly a much delayed
reaction."

"What seems to have been much more important is that Courtenay Baylor became
Rowland Hazard's therapist in 1933, and continued to work with him through
1934.
It is under the influence of Baylor's Emmanuel Movement therapy that Hazard
actually began to recover. Hazard was also attending Oxford Group meetings,
but
his family was paying Baylor to be his regular therapist."

"In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped rescue Ebby Thacher from being
committed to the Brattleboro Asylum, and three months later, in November
1934,
Ebby visited Bill Wilson in his kitchen, in the famous scene recorded in the
first chapter of the Big Book."

This doesn't mean that Jung's theory about alcoholism requiring a spiritual
solution was incorrect. It just meant that Rowland did not begin any serious
recovery until a couple of years after his sessions with Jung, when he
finally
found the kind of people who had the kind of spiritual answer which Jung had
told him to look for. He found this answer partly in the Oxford Group, and
partly in the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club (which had a far greater
interest in treating alcoholism than the Oxford Group).

Boston AA met with the Jacoby Club when it first began in the same way that
early Akron and New York AA began by meeting with the Oxford Group.

SOURCES: Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel
Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous
(2004)
and <http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html>.

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++++Message 2431. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Doctor''s Opinion and first 164
pages
From: John C. Pine . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2005 11:28:00 PM

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Carl,

The Doctor's Opinion started on page 1 in the first edition of the book
Alcoholic Anonymous, and I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation as to
why
it was grouped among the Roman numerals from the second edition onward. The
late
Don P. of Aurora, Colorado, was among those who pushed for it to be restored
to
its original place at page 1.

John P
Richmond, VA

--------------------------------

Original Message:

Could anybody tell me why "The Doctor's Opinion" is not part of the first
164
pages of the Big Book? Many Thanks, Carl P

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++++Message 2432. . . . . . . . . . . . Nell Wing''s 88th Birthday
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/23/2005 5:40:00 PM

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She was AA's first Archivist.....

May 27 will be her birthday -- Send her a card?

Ms. Nell Wing
52 Northwood Dr.
West Milford, NJ
07840

--Cindy Miller (Philadelphia, PA)

---------------------------------------------
Fiona Dodd: "Nell made such a fantastic contribution to AA."
---------------------------------------------
Ernest Kurtz: "But for Nell, A.A. would have much less history to love. She
preserved, she fought for, she organized and maintained the very beginning
of
the archives. Anyone interested in the history of A.A. is in her debt, and
it
might be good to remind the relative newcomers of her contribution to our
very
existence."
---------------------------------------------
Jared Lobdell: "A gracious lady who survived many years as Bill's secretary
and
then was AA's first archivist: she was ... a very great lover of AA
history."
---------------------------------------------

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++++Message 2433. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Twenty-Four Hours a Day author
From: Janis R . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2005 2:52:00 PM

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Richmond Walker was a credit to AA. How do these rumors get started? Just
proves that being an old timer does not guarantee accuracy. I have been to
several meetings in Daytona Beach and they are very proud of him. More than
a
few of their old timers knew him personally.

Janis S. Raley,
Assistant Director

Dallas Intergroup Association
6162 E. Mockingbird Lane, Suite 213
Dallas, Texas 75214
214-887-6699

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++++Message 2434. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2005 6:05:00 AM

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Hi Carl,

There are a couple of things I can add. Please keep in mind that Bill Wilson
had only brief conversations about the situation with Jung, and apparently
(by
his admission) only second-hand. I have tried to find someone who said they
heard it directly from Hazard, and so far as I can tell even Ebby doesn't
make
that claim. Several people were aware of the conversation having occurred,
from
what other's had told them. So Wilson's knowledge of it was really only a
general sense of what was said.

I might add also that Hazard's itinerary on his Europe trip, which included
his
wife and 4 children, is partially known and there is at most a period of 10
days
when he might have been in Zurich. There is no evidence in the Hazard papers
that he was in Zurich, but it cannot be ruled out.

I think it would be good to keep in mind the possiblity, however remote it
may
seem, that a misconception was formed in Wilson's mind about the identity of
the
alcoholic. Perhaps it was someone closely associated with Hazard and well
known
to Hazard but not to Wilson. One detail in Dubiel's book needs correcting,
BTW.
There is a short discussion about the spelling of the name in Jung's reply
to
Wilson which is not correct.

By the time Wilson was reconstructing the conversation, he had been in
therapy
with a prominent Jungian analyst, Frances Wickes. I would imagine that some
of
what he knew of what Jung might have said to an alcoholic would have come
from
Wickes. No doubt she would have known well what Jung's views were. He had
also
corresponded with other
students and patients of Jung.

As for the source of the ideas: Charles Bufe, in AA: Cult or Cure, mentions
that
Jung was probably familiar with some of what James had written. There was a
German translation of the Varieties available from the early part of the
century, and when Jung met with James in Boston around 1910 Jung was much
impressed. The phrase James got from Hadley, about religiomania being the
cure
for dipsomania, is in that book. The similarity to what Jung said is very
strong. Perhaps the words of an American ex-alcoholic who ministered to
alcoholics came back to America from Zurich and became the seed of a
uniquely
American tradition.

Cora

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++++Message 2435. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2005 6:31:00 AM

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Carl asked
1) Where Dr Jung replies to Rowland "there are exceptions to cases such as
yours which have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a
while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To
me those experiences are phenomena......." Can anybody tell me where Dr Jung
got this information from, are there any pre-recorded letters or information
about alcoholics having this vital spiritual experience?

The material that comes to mind are two books by Harold Begbie titled Twice
Born Men and Souls In Action which were written in 1909 and 1911
respectively.

The books contain drunk stories of how men and women recovered thru the
Salvation Army.

Also, there are books written by former drunks who turned to misson work and
had their stories published such as Harry Hadly.

Such material was also common in Europe where abstinence societies have
existed long before AA.
Jim

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++++Message 2436. . . . . . . . . . . . Sixth Tradition question
From: Bill Corcoran . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2005 10:45:00 PM

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Greetings fellow AA History Buffs!

First of all, I'd like to thank all of you for the wealth of
knowledge I have gained from this group. This is my first post,
however.

I was wondering if anyone could expand on the portion of Tradition
Six which refers to the "distilling companies" desire to venture into
alcohol education? A well-repected member of the fellowship was
offered a position in public relations. The desire to refer to the
man as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous was the deal breaker and the
Sixth Tradition prevailed.

Does anyone have any further information as to the person's
identity and location? Also, I would appreciate any references that
my exist to read further on this topic.

Gratefully,

Bill O'C.
Middletown, RI

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++++Message 2437. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Open meetings and closed
meetings
From: Susan Krieger . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2005 1:42:00 PM

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The blue card was a conference action from the 1987 AAWS Conference. It
recommended that AA's primary purpose statement be available as a service
piece.
One side would address closed meetings for alcoholics only and the other
side
would be for open meeting. The establishment of open and closed meetings is
a
much earlier policy. I believe that all meetings were closed and that open
meetings originally were a part of public information, and were speaker
meetings. The public was invited to hear the message of AA.

When I came into AA, it was explained that at open meetings anyone could
attend
but only the Alcoholic could share his/her experience. The concern has
always
been that many people with other problems other than alcohol have wanted to
become members of AA. The fifth tradition encourages our singleness of
purpose.The idea of supportive relatives is that they can attend open
meetings
only. If a group wants their meeting to be closed that is the right of the
group
concsience. The needs of the group always preceed the needs of the
individual.
Our traditions work!

susank

-------------------------

From: Roger Wheatley <rogerwheatley2004@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:13pm

By the 1987 General Service Conference, it was recommended that an AA
"service
piece" be made available which is now the "blue card." I have a tape of the
12
Concepts given by a past trustee who served on that conference (David A.
from
Texas) which tells the story that delegates to that conference could not
come to
consensus and therefore the blue card did not get conference approved. The
compromise was to establish a "service piece" that groups could use if they
chose to.

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++++Message 2438. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Doctor''s Opinion and first 164
pages
From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2005 5:44:00 AM

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Esther Richards of John Hopkins suggested getting a physician to write an
introduction to what had already been written (Bill's Story and There is a
Solution), so I would think Bill would do just that. It took him 16 years to
realize his mistake.

Diz T.
Tallahassee, FL.

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++++Message 2439. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: What city, psychiatrist, and
hospital?
From: Daniel . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2005 7:54:00 AM

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What city, psychiatrist, and hospital?
(All this info is thanks to the West Baltimore Group)

AA member (Hank P.) in large community (Montclair NJ), more alcoholics per
square mile.

Prominent psychiatrist he contacted/clinic: Chief Psychiatrist for the State
of
NJ, Dr. Howard in Montclair, New Jersey.

Chief psychiatrist: Dr. Russell E. Blaisdell.

Large public hospital: Rockland State Hospital in Rockland County near
Orangeburg, New York.

Daniel S. - NYC

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MODERATOR: for some of the additional details which I added to Daniel's
answer
to these questions, thanks also to:
Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
"Russ S" <bubba062701@earthlink.net>
"Charles Knapp" <cdknapp@pacbell.net>
"dinobb3" <dinobb3@yahoo.com>

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++++Message 2440. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Recovery based plays
From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2005 7:01:00 AM

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From Bob McK. <bobnotgod2@att.net>

We have some skits. Please contact me directly at:
Bobnotgod2@att.net

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From: Tony Wade <tonybethkaci@sbcglobal.net>

Hi Cheryl,
What kinds of plays are you talking about? Ones that deal specifically with
AA
history or just plays with a recovery theme? I have lots of skits that we
have
put on in my area (Northern CA) but I'm not sure what you mean.

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From: "Daniel" <nailed@earthlink.net>

In New York there was an original musical with 20 original songs running
about
an hour and a half called AA: The Musical. It was written and performed by
AA's
for AA's and the benefits went to NY Intergroup. It's circulating on DVD in
NY
these days.

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FROM THE MODERATOR: If anyone wants more information about these plays,
skits,
and musicals, please e-mail Bob McK., Tony Wade, or Daniel.

If you send it to me, and I have to forward it, it gets more complicated and
time-consuming than you can imagine, because (among other things) the Yahoo
system hides the crucial e-mail address from me, and I have to look it up in
a
Yahoo list that is only partially alphabetized. Thanks!

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++++Message 2441. . . . . . . . . . . . Link between 24 Hour book and God
Calling?
From: Higher Powered . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2005 8:46:00 AM

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Does anyone know about the link between "God Calling" ( a book used in early
AA)
and the "24 Hours a Day" book?

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FROM GLENN C. (South Bend, Indiana)

Richmond Walker did not originally intend to write a meditational book. He
wrote down a large number of meditations on small cards which he carried in
his
pocket, just for his own use when he was praying and meditating. Some of the
other A.A. members in Daytona Beach, Florida, began reading some of the
little
cards and begged him to print them up in a little book for the A.A. groups
in
their part of Florida. They used the printing press in the county
courthouse,
and Rich distributed them from his basement.

For the small print sections at the bottom of each page in Twenty-Four Hours
a
Day, Richmond Walker drew heavily on a book he had discovered, entitled God
Calling by Two Listeners, which had been edited and published by A. J.
Russell,
one of the most famous Oxford Group authors. God Calling had an interesting
origin. One of the two women (whose names are unknown to this day) explained
in
an introduction how they were inspired to begin their spiritual exploration:

"In the autumn of 1932, I was sitting in the lounge of a hotel when a
visitor,
quite unknown, crossed over and handing me a copy of For Sinners Only asked
if I
had read it. I answered no, and she left it with me. On returning home, I
bought
a copy for myself. I was curiously affected by the book and .... there came
a
persistent desire to try to see whether I could get guidance such as A. J.
Russell reported, through sharing a quiet time with the friend with whom I
was
then living. She was a deeply spiritual woman with unwavering faith in the
goodness of God and a devout believer in prayer, although her life had not
been
an easy one. I was rather skeptical, but, as she had agreed, we sat down
with
pencils and paper in hand and waited .... To this day, I cannot obtain
guidance
in this way alone. But with my friend a very wonderful thing happened. From
the
first, beautiful messages were given to her by our Lord Himself, and every
day
from then these messages have never failed us ....”

"Certainly we were not in any way psychic or advanced in spiritual growth,
but
ordinary human beings who had more suffering and worry than the majority and
who
had known tragedy after tragedy. [And yet] always, and this daily, He
insisted
that we should be channels of love, joy, and laughter in His broken world
....”

"We, or rather I, found this command difficult to obey; to others it might
have
been simple. Were we to laugh, to cheer others, to be always joyful when our
days were pain-racked and our nights tortured by chronic insomnia, when
poverty
and almost insupportable worry were our daily portion ...? Still came this
insistent command to love and laugh and bring joy to the lives we contacted.
Disheartened, one of us would gladly have ceased the struggle and passed on
to
another and happier life .... [Yet] He encouraged us daily .... Continually
He
exhorted us not to lose heart and spoke of the joy that the future held for
us
.... He stressed, most strongly of all, the immense power given to two souls
praying together in close union and at one in their desire to love and serve
Him."

This was the kind of message that could actually speak to struggling,
tormented
alcoholics. Richmond Walker decided to take it and use it freely in the
small
print sections in each day's meditation in his own compilation. He had to
shorten the work enormously, and eliminate references to calling on the name
of
Jesus or contemplating Christ on the cross. Instead of prayers to Jesus, he
turned it all into prayers to God instead, which was very, very important in
the
A.A. context. He clarified passages that were difficult to understand, and
often
almost totally rewrote the material.

He also added copious material of his own which was vitally important,
explaining what the concept of a higher power was really about, for the help
of
alcoholics who literally did not have the foggiest idea of what was actually
meant by the word God.

Perhaps the best way of summing up what Rich actually did would be as
follows:
God Calling was a nice little work of early twentieth-century Protestant
piety,
replete with the sentiments of the popular hymns from that period, hymns
like "I
walk in the garden with Him, while the dew is still on the roses, and the
voice
I hear, whispering in my ear, the Son of God discloses." God Calling is
still
one of the five or six top sellers in Christian bookstores (Protestant
bookstores anyway). It was deeply moving in many places, but not truly
exceptional -- or not in the sense of Rich’s adaptation. Rich remolded it,
reshaped it, added copiously and cut away equally vigorously, and came out
with
what I regard as one of the ten or fifteen true classics of spiritual
literature
-- a masterpiece, measured by the standards of the past three or four
thousand
years, and including both eastern and western spiritual writings.

I have seen more people make more progress more quickly, by using
Twenty-Four
Hours a Day, than I have observed with any other meditational book in use in
the
English-speaking world today. (I do not have the same kind of knowledge of
the
kinds of meditational books currently available in German, French, Spanish,
Italian, etc.)

SOURCE:
http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/richmond_walker.htm
http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html

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++++Message 2442. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2005 11:20:00 PM

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At 10:33 5/22/2005 , Carl P. wrote:

>"In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped rescue Ebby Thacher from being
>committed to the Brattleboro Asylum, and three months later, in November
>1934, Ebby visited Bill Wilson in his kitchen, in the famous scene
>recorded in the first chapter of the Big Book."

I would note that only a Flatlander would call the Brattleboro Retreat the
Brattleboro Asylum. 8^)

It has a long history in the treatment of mental illness as well as
alcoholism. AAMF, one or two of my uncles has been thru their program many
years ago.

Tommy in Baton Rouge but almost born in Vermont

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2443. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2005 11:24:00 PM

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Hi Carl,

There are a couple of things I can add. Please keep in mind that Bill Wilson
had only brief conversations about the situation with Jung, and apparently
(by
his admission) only second-hand. I have tried to find someone who said they
heard it directly from Hazard, and so far as I can tell even Ebby doesn't
make
that claim. Several people were aware of the conversation having occurred,
from
what others had told them. So Wilson's knowledge of it was really only a
general sense of what was said.

I might add also that Hazard's itinerary on his Europe trip, which included
his
wife and 4 children, is partially known and there is at most a period of 10
days
when he might have been in Zurich. There is no evidence in the Hazard papers
that he was in Zurich, but it cannot be ruled out.

I think it would be good to keep in mind the possiblity, however remote it
may
seem, that a misconception was formed in Wilson's mind about the identity of
the
alcoholic. Perhaps it was someone closely associated with Hazard and well
known
to Hazard but not to Wilson. One detail in Dubiel's book needs correcting,
BTW.
There is a short discussion about the spelling of the name in Jung's reply
to
Wilson which is not correct.

By the time Wilson was reconstructing the conversation, he had been in
therapy
with a prominent Jungian analyst, Frances Wickes. I would imagine that some
of
what he knew of what Jung might have said to an alcoholic would have come
from
Wickes. No doubt she would have known well what Jung's views were. He had
also
corresponded with other students and patients of Jung.

As for the source of the ideas: Charles Bufe, in AA: Cult or Cure, mentions
that
Jung was probably familiar with some of what James had written. There was a
German translation of the Varieties available from the early part of the
century, and when Jung met with James in Boston around 1910 Jung was much
impressed. The phrase James got from Hadley, about religiomania being the
cure
for dipsomania, is in that book. The similarity to what Jung said is very
strong. Perhaps the words of an American ex-alcoholic who ministered to
alcoholics came back to America from Zurich and became the seed of a
uniquely
American tradition.

Cora

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++++Message 2444. . . . . . . . . . . . Jung, James, and Bill W
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2005 12:38:00 PM

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The story of Samuel Hopkins Hadley's mission recovery from alcoholism
is (with other such stories) in William James, The Varieties of
Religious Experience, which Jung had read before he met James at
Worcester (not Boston) in 1909 (not 1910), therefore certainly before
the 1930s. While Jung might have read Harold Begbie along the way, he
could have found enough for what he told RH in The Varieties of
Religious Experience. The supposition that it was another alcoholic --
not Rowland Hazard -- that Jung treated is unlikely, given Jung's
letter to Bill W. in 1961. The chronology is uncertain, of course,
but there is little doubt Rowland Hazard saw Jung. -- Jared Lobdell

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++++Message 2445. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Open meetings and closed
meetings
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2005 11:20:00 PM

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Hi Susan and Roger
The info below was posted to AAHL last July. I hope you find it useful
for the history that led up to the creation of the blue card and
actions that have occurred subsequent to it.
Some points of specifics: the correct name for the Conference is
“General Service” Conference not “AAWS” Conference. AA World
Services
(AAWS) is an operating corporation that oversees the General Service
Office (GSO) and publishes AA books and pamphlets. The other operating
corporation is the AA Grapevine. These two entities constitute the
publishing arms of AA (see the AA Service Manual for a fuller
explanation).
Meeting types
The precursor to “The AA Group” pamphlet was called “Partners in
AA.”
It was the first publication to define various meeting types. The
types of meeting defined then were “Closed,” “Open” and
“Public.” Open
and closed meetings were explained in the pamphlet (along with what
was called a “typical” format for the meetings). Closed meetings were
also explained to include “straight discussion meetings,” “Step
meetings,” Tradition meetings,” “Panel meetings (Q&A type meetings)
and “Beginners meetings.” “Public meetings” were oriented to
providing
public information to the community and encouraged inviting members of
the professional community (e.g. physicians, clergy, law enforcement
officials, etc.) to acquaint them with the availability of AA in the
community.
Service pieces
Items that are designated as “service pieces” (sometimes also called
“service items”) do not necessarily escape Conference scrutiny nor do
they lack Conference approval (e.g. Box 459, the “yellow sheet”
Guidelines and directories are among the various service pieces).
“Service pieces” are addressed only briefly in the AA Service Manual
to identify that GSO does publish items in addition to
Conference-approved literature.
The” blue card” was approved by the General Service Conference twice
(1987 and reaffirmed in 1988).
You can do a search in the group’s message archives to access
additional prior postings on the subject matter.
------------------------------------
The “blue card” definitions of open and closed meetings are part of a
series of Conference advisory actions emphasizing AA’s primary
purpose. The “blue card” is sometimes called the “primary purpose”
card. It was first recommended by the 1986 Conference, adopted by the
1987 Conference and reaffirmed by the 1988 Conference.
Below, is a timeline history of Conference advisory actions related to
AA’s primary purpose:
1968 It was recommended that: AA groups in correctional facilities and
hospitals adhere to AA's Fifth Tradition, on primary purpose of
carrying the message to the alcoholic. That anyone with problems other
than alcohol be made welcome at inside open meetings, but not
participate in group activities.
1969 It was recommended that: Guidelines be prepared outlining
procedures for AA members to follow in working with institutions and
ways of informing the nonalcoholic staff about AA. The following
committee recommendations are to be included in the guidelines:
a. AAs attending meetings at prisons or hospitals should be
selected carefully so that relations with the institution's staff
remain harmonious.
b. AA's position on membership in institutional groups be
defined as follows:
We cannot give AA membership to nonalcoholic narcotic addicts and
other unrelated groups or organizations. AA groups in institutions can
welcome anyone with problems other than alcohol to inside open
meetings, but it is suggested that they do not speak or otherwise
participate in these meetings.
1970 It was recommended that: The wording of the 1969 Institutions
Committee recommendation concerning the definition of AA's position on
membership in institutions groups be changed to read as follows:
Open meetings are traditionally open to all interested in AA, but
should be devoted exclusively to the alcoholic problem. Closed
meetings should traditionally be restricted to alcoholics.
1972 It was recommended that: The Conference reaffirm AA group policy
that "Only those with a desire to stop drinking may be members of AA
groups; only AA members are eligible to be officers of AA groups;
nonalcoholics are welcome at open meetings of AA." And, it is
suggested that the word "family" not be used in the name of an AA
group; if AA's and their nonalcoholic mates wish to meet together on a
regular basis, they consider these gatherings "meetings" and not AA
groups. (Floor Action)
1985 It was recommended that: The following be inserted in the
pamphlets "If You Are a Professional" and "How AA Members Cooperate":
The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop
drinking. If the person is not sure about this point, then he or she
is most welcome to attend an open AA meeting. If the person is sure
that drinking is not his or her problem, then he or she may wish to
seek help elsewhere.
1986 It was recommended that: A service item for use at AA meetings
regarding AA's primary purpose be developed by the appropriate
trustees' committee and proposed to the appropriate Conference
committee at the 1987 Conference.
1987 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding AA's
primary purpose be available as an AA service piece.
THIS IS A CLOSED MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
This is a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. In support of AA's
singleness of purpose, attendance at closed meetings is limited to
persons who have a desire to stop drinking. If you think you have a
problem with alcohol, you are welcome to attend this meeting. We ask
that when discussing our problems, we confine ourselves to those
problems, as they relate to alcoholism.
The following statement regarding AA's primary purpose be available as
an AA service piece.
THIS IS AN OPEN MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
This is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. We are glad you are
all here--especially newcomers. In keeping with our singleness of
purpose and our Third Tradition which states that "The only
requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking," we ask
that all who participate confine their discussion to their problems
with alcohol.
1988 It was recommended that: The Primary Purpose Card continue as a
service piece.
1990 It was recommended that: "The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the
one-way display and the poster be updated to reflect the findings from
the 1989 Membership Survey.
"The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the one-way display and poster
reflect all the findings of the 1989 Membership Survey. The answer to
Question #14 in the AA survey pertaining to drugs should be presented
as follows:
"In addition to their alcoholism X% of members indicated they were
addicted to drugs," and include the disclaimer "AA's primary purpose
is recovery from alcoholism."
1992 It was recommended that: The 1992 AA Membership Survey
Questionnaire be changed as follows:
a. Add item "f' to Question #3: "this is my first AA meeting."
b. Revise item "1" of Question #5 to read: "Newspaper,
magazine, radio or TV."
c. Change Question #9 to read: "Do you belong to an AA Home
Group?"
d. Revise item "a" of Question #10 to read: "Do you have a
sponsor?"
e. Change item "b" of Question #10 to read: "Did you get a
sponsor within 90 days of coming to AA?"
That Question #14, "In addition to your alcoholism, were you addicted
to drugs?" be removed from the 1992 AA Membership Survey Questionnaire
because the question:
a. Emphasizes problems other than alcohol;
b. Has a tendency to lead to disunity;
c. Could be construed as conflicting with our primary purpose.
1997 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding
Singleness of Purpose be added to the C.P.C. pamphlets: "Alcoholics
Anonymous in Your Community," "AA and Employees Assistance Programs,"
"AA as a Resource for the Health Care Professional," "How AA Members
Cooperate With Professionals," "If You Are a Professional," and
"Members of the Clergy Ask About Alcoholics Anonymous" under the title
"Singleness of Purpose and Problems Other Than Alcohol" at the next
printing:
"Alcoholism and drug addiction are often referred to as 'substance
abuse' or 'chemical dependency.' Alcoholics and nonalcoholics are,
therefore, sometimes introduced to AA and encouraged to attend AA
meetings. Anyone may attend open AA meetings. But only those with a
drinking problem may attend closed meetings or become AA members.
People with problems other than alcoholism are eligible for AA
membership only if they have a drinking problem."
Cheers
Arthur
_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Susan Krieger
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:42 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Open meetings and closed meetings

The blue card was a conference action from the 1987 AAWS Conference.
It recommended that AA's primary purpose statement be available as a
service piece. One side would address closed meetings for alcoholics
only and the other side would be for open meeting. The establishment
of open and closed meetings is a much earlier policy. I believe that
all meetings were closed and that open meetings originally were a part
of public information, and were speaker meetings. The public was
invited to hear the message of AA.

When I came into AA, it was explained that at open meetings anyone
could attend but only the Alcoholic could share his/her experience.
The concern has always been that many people with other problems other
than alcohol have wanted to become members of AA. The fifth tradition
encourages our singleness of purpose.The idea of supportive relatives
is that they can attend open meetings only. If a group wants their
meeting to be closed that is the right of the group concsience. The
needs of the group always preceed the needs of the individual. Our
traditions work!

susank

-------------------------

From: Roger Wheatley <rogerwheatley2004@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:13pm

By the 1987 General Service Conference, it was recommended that an AA
"service piece" be made available which is now the "blue card." I have
a tape of the 12 Concepts given by a past trustee who served on that
conference (David A. from Texas) which tells the story that delegates
to that conference could not come to consensus and therefore the blue
card did not get conference approved. The compromise was to establish
a "service piece" that groups could use if they chose to.

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++++Message 2446. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Doctor''s Opinion and first 164
pages
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2005 12:36:00 AM

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Hi Diz and Jim B

Let’s do the good Dr Silkworth some justice here. He is credited with
treating over 40,000 alcoholics in his tenure at Towns and
Knickerbocker hospitals. Bill called him “the little Dr who loved
drunks” and “medical saint.” He also served as a Board Trustee and,
along with Dr Tiebout, helped get Bill the opportunity to address
medical associations and explain AA to them. There is a magnificent
biography of Dr Silkworth by Dale Mitchell.

In a 1953 Grapevine article Bill W credits Dr Silkworth as being one
of the three major influences that led to the formation of the 12
Steps (the other two were the Oxford Group and William James).

Dr Silkworth wrote a (July 27, 1938) letter of support for AA for use
in fundraising for the Big Book. The letter was incorporated into the
chapter “The Doctor’s Opinion” (re AA Comes of Age pg 168 for the high
degree of stature and respect that Bill extends to Dr Silkworth).

Dr Esther L Richards of Baltimore had suggested to Bill to get a
“Number one physician” in the alcoholism field to write an
introduction (re Not God pg 332).

The notion that renumbering the chapter “The Doctors Opinion” to roman
numerals somehow reduces its stature is very dubious. Why Bill
renumbered the pages in the Big Book in the 2nd edition is a mystery.
Nobody really knows but there is some wonderfully entertaining
speculation on the matter. But it’s just that, speculation.

Also a technicality - the term “first 164 pages” is used erroneously.
They are not the first 164 pages - they are the pages numbered 1 thru
164. The error consists of taking a series of cardinal numbers and
using them as ordinal numbers. The first page occurs immediately after
the front cover. Admittedly this is nit-picking but I think the term
“first 164 pages” gets used mindlessly in AA and has become something
of a stale mantra (but I don’t want to get off on a rant here - I’ll
save it for another day).l

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2447. . . . . . . . . . . . Twelve Promises and the Big Book
From: jacqueline belgium . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/29/2005 5:20:00 AM

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More and more, we see in meeting places printed documents with the title
"Twelve
Promises" and more and more sharing are also made under the theme the
"Twelve
Promises."

Could you please tell me if the title "Twelve Promises" is an official term
as I
have no trace of such? If yes could you please give me the source and date.

Is the numbering of the "Twelve Promises" also an official presentation
adapted
from the text in the Big Book ?

Was the intention of the writers of thoses promise to number them? Though
the
coincidence is striking that the enumeration goes up, in a certain way, to
twelve tracks to happiness.

I ask you those questions as I have the feeling, more specially for the
newcomers, that there is a confusion and think that our AA Triangle has four
bases: Steps/Traditions/Concepts/Promises ! which leads to a possible
misunderstanding.

Thanks in advance for your reactions.
Jacqueline - Brussels - Belgium

_________________________________________________________________

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++++Message 2448. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Open meetings and closed
meetings
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2005 2:59:00 PM

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MESSAGE 2445 REPOSTED to correct the formatting

---------------------------------------------

Hi Susan and Roger

The info below was posted to AAHL last July. I hope you find it useful for
the
history that led up to the creation of the blue card and actions that have
occurred subsequent to it.

Some points of specifics: the correct name for the Conference is "General
Service" Conference not "AAWS" Conference. AA World Services (AAWS) is an
operating corporation that oversees the General Service Office (GSO) and
publishes AA books and pamphlets. The other operating corporation is the AA
Grapevine. These two entities constitute the publishing arms of AA (see the
AA
Service Manual for a fuller explanation).

Meeting types

The precursor to "The AA Group" pamphlet was called "Partners in AA." It was
the
first publication to define various meeting types. The types of meeting
defined
then were "Closed," "Open" and "Public." Open and closed meetings were
explained
in the pamphlet (along with what was called a "typical" format for the
meetings). Closed meetings were also explained to include "straight
discussion
meetings," "Step meetings," Tradition meetings," "Panel meetings (Q&A type
meetings) and "Beginners meetings." "Public meetings" were oriented to
providing
public information to the community and encouraged inviting members of the
professional community (e.g. physicians, clergy, law enforcement officials,
etc.) to acquaint them with the availability of AA in the community.

Service pieces

Items that are designated as "service pieces" (sometimes also called
"service
items") do not necessarily escape Conference scrutiny nor do they lack
Conference approval (e.g. Box 459, the "yellow sheet" Guidelines and
directories
are among the various service pieces). "Service pieces" are addressed only
briefly in the AA Service Manual to identify that GSO does publish items in
addition to Conference-approved literature.

The" blue card" was approved by the General Service Conference twice (1987
and
reaffirmed in 1988).

You can do a search in the group's message archives to access additional
prior
postings on the subject matter.

------------------------------------

The "blue card" definitions of open and closed meetings are part of a series
of
Conference advisory actions emphasizing AA's primary purpose. The "blue
card" is
sometimes called the "primary purpose" card. It was first recommended by the
1986 Conference, adopted by the 1987 Conference and reaffirmed by the 1988
Conference.

Below, is a timeline history of Conference advisory actions related to AA's
primary purpose:

1968 It was recommended that: AA groups in correctional facilities and
hospitals
adhere to AA's Fifth Tradition, on primary purpose of carrying the message
to
the alcoholic. That anyone with problems other than alcohol be made welcome
at
inside open meetings, but not participate in group activities.

1969 It was recommended that: Guidelines be prepared outlining procedures
for AA
members to follow in working with institutions and ways of informing the
nonalcoholic staff about AA. The following committee recommendations are to
be
included in the guidelines:

a. AAs attending meetings at prisons or hospitals should be selected
carefully so that relations with the institution's staff remain harmonious.

b. AA's position on membership in institutional groups be defined as
follows: We cannot give AA membership to nonalcoholic narcotic addicts and
other
unrelated groups or organizations. AA groups in institutions can welcome
anyone
with problems other than alcohol to inside open meetings, but it is
suggested
that they do not speak or otherwise participate in these meetings.

1970 It was recommended that: The wording of the 1969 Institutions Committee
recommendation concerning the definition of AA's position on membership in
institutions groups be changed to read as follows:

Open meetings are traditionally open to all interested in AA, but should be
devoted exclusively to the alcoholic problem. Closed meetings should
traditionally be restricted to alcoholics.

1972 It was recommended that: The Conference reaffirm AA group policy that
"Only
those with a desire to stop drinking may be members of AA groups; only AA
members are eligible to be officers of AA groups; nonalcoholics are welcome
at
open meetings of AA." And, it is suggested that the word "family" not be
used in
the name of an AA group; if AA's and their nonalcoholic mates wish to meet
together on a regular basis, they consider these gatherings "meetings" and
not
AA groups. (Floor Action)

1985 It was recommended that: The following be inserted in the pamphlets "If
You
Are a Professional" and "How AA Members Cooperate":

The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking. If
the
person is not sure about this point, then he or she is most welcome to
attend an
open AA meeting. If the person is sure that drinking is not his or her
problem,
then he or she may wish to seek help elsewhere.

1986 It was recommended that: A service item for use at AA meetings
regarding
AA's primary purpose be developed by the appropriate trustees' committee and
proposed to the appropriate Conference committee at the 1987 Conference.

1987 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding AA's primary
purpose be available as an AA service piece.

THIS IS A CLOSED MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

This is a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. In support of AA's
singleness
of purpose, attendance at closed meetings is limited to persons who have a
desire to stop drinking. If you think you have a problem with alcohol, you
are
welcome to attend this meeting. We ask that when discussing our problems, we
confine ourselves to those problems, as they relate to alcoholism.

The following statement regarding AA's primary purpose be available as an AA
service piece.

THIS IS AN OPEN MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

This is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. We are glad you are all
here--especially newcomers. In keeping with our singleness of purpose and
our
Third Tradition which states that "The only requirement for AA membership is
a
desire to stop drinking," we ask that all who participate confine their
discussion to their problems with alcohol.

1988 It was recommended that: The Primary Purpose Card continue as a service
piece.

1990 It was recommended that: "The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the
one-way
display and the poster be updated to reflect the findings from the 1989
Membership Survey.

"The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the one-way display and poster reflect
all
the findings of the 1989 Membership Survey. The answer to Question #14 in
the AA
survey pertaining to drugs should be presented as follows:

"In addition to their alcoholism X% of members indicated they were addicted
to
drugs," and include the disclaimer "AA's primary purpose is recovery from
alcoholism."

1992 It was recommended that: The 1992 AA Membership Survey Questionnaire be
changed as follows:

a - Add item "f' to Question #3: "this is my first AA meeting."

b - Revise item "1" of Question #5 to read: "Newspaper, magazine, radio or
TV."

c - Change Question #9 to read: "Do you belong to an AA Home Group?"

d - Revise item "a" of Question #10 to read: "Do you have a sponsor?"

e - Change item "b" of Question #10 to read: "Did you get a sponsor within
90
days of coming to AA?"

That Question #14, "In addition to your alcoholism, were you addicted to
drugs?"
be removed from the

1992 AA Membership Survey Questionnaire because the question:

a - Emphasizes problems other than alcohol;

b - Has a tendency to lead to disunity;

c - Could be construed as conflicting with our primary purpose.

1997 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding Singleness
of
Purpose be added to the C.P.C. pamphlets: "Alcoholics Anonymous in Your
Community," "AA and Employees Assistance Programs," "AA as a Resource for
the
Health Care Professional," "How AA Members Cooperate With Professionals,"
"If
You Are a Professional," and "Members of the Clergy Ask About Alcoholics
Anonymous" under the title "Singleness of Purpose and Problems Other Than
Alcohol" at the next printing:

"Alcoholism and drug addiction are often referred to as 'substance abuse' or
'chemical dependency.' Alcoholics and nonalcoholics are, therefore,
sometimes
introduced to AA and encouraged to attend AA meetings. Anyone may attend
open AA
meetings. But only those with a drinking problem may attend closed meetings
or
become AA members. People with problems other than alcoholism are eligible
for
AA membership only if they have a drinking problem."

Cheers

Arthur

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Susan Krieger

Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:42 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Open meetings and closed meetings

The blue card was a conference action from the 1987 AAWS Conference. It
recommended that AA's primary purpose statement be available as a service
piece.
One side would address closed meetings for alcoholics only and the other
side
would be for open meeting. The establishment of open and closed meetings is
a
much earlier policy. I believe that all meetings were closed and that open
meetings originally were a part of public information, and were speaker
meetings. The public was invited to hear the message of AA.

When I came into AA, it was explained that at open meetings anyone could
attend
but only the Alcoholic could share his/her experience. The concern has
always
been that many people with other problems other than alcohol have wanted to
become members of AA. The fifth tradition encourages our singleness of
purpose.The idea of supportive relatives is that they can attend open
meetings
only. If a group wants their meeting to be closed that is the right of the
group
concsience. The needs of the group always preceed the needs of the
individual.
Our traditions work!

susank

-------------------------

From: Roger Wheatley <rogerwheatley2004@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:13pm

By the 1987 General Service Conference, it was recommended that an AA
"service
piece" be made available which is now the "blue card." I have a tape of the
12
Concepts given by a past trustee who served on that conference (David A.
from
Texas) which tells the story that delegates to that conference could not
come to
consensus and therefore the blue card did not get conference approved. The
compromise was to establish a "service piece" that groups could use if they
chose to.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2449. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Founders'' Day Celebrations 2005
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2005 5:06:00 PM

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Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills NY
Lois Wilson Annual Picnic
Saturday, June 4
http://www.steppingstones.org

The Wilson House in East Dorset VT
Bill Wilson Day
Sunday, June 5
http://www.wilsonhouse.org

Akron OH
June 10 - 12
http://www.akronaa.org

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++++Message 2450. . . . . . . . . . . . Living Sober book
From: and25g . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/2/2005 8:27:00 AM

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I have a question about the history behind one of the conference-approved
books
AA has today which is "Living Sober." Recently, my home group has decided to
read and study this book once a month at our meeting. I find many
suggestions in
this book which are sort of complete opposites of what our Big Book promises
for
alcoholics. Things like not having alcohol in your house, avoiding people,
places, and things ....

I would like to find out more about how this book became approved by the
Fellowship, who are the authors... Any information is greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

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++++Message 2451. . . . . . . . . . . . William James & spiritual experience
From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2005 4:53:00 PM

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Hi All
Can someone share their knowledge of the late William James and his
writings on the terms spiritual experience and spiritual awakening?

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++++Message 2452. . . . . . . . . . . . Who you see here, what you hear
here...
From: Richard Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2005 1:19:00 AM

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... let it stay here.

Where did this statment come from?? I can not find
it in any A.A. books or A.A. lititure??? Is it something we just kinda
adopted?? Thanks, Richard

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++++Message 2453. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Twelve Promises and the Big Book
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2005 7:46:00 PM

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***********************************************************
From (1) Arthur Sheehan, (2) Arkie Koehl, and (3) Jim Blair
***********************************************************

(1) From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Mon May 30, 2005

Hi Jacqueline

It helps greatly to develop a sense of humor and an awareness of (I
don’t know what else to call it) AA theater. Some things circulate in
AA which are solely the product of the imagination of individual
members. These folks often seem to have the uncanny aptitude of being
able to read things in the Big Book that aren’t written there.

First off, there is really no such thing as “The Promises.” The term
is a euphemism for 3 paragraphs of Big Book text on pages 83 and 84.
However, the term is so widely circulated in AA today, and is repeated
so often, it has become established. However, these things do come and
go - we are today thankfully rid of the infamous reference to “page
449” as the solution to every problem that could be conceived for and
by humanity (but it was a wonderful piece of AA theater).

The notion of the “Promises” adding up to 12 is also an invention of
imagination but not a very elegant one in its parsing. In order to
contrive 12 so called “Promises” one must leave out the 3rd paragraph.
Aside from giving the “Promises” their name, this paragraph is likely
the most significant paragraph in the series. However the paragraph
awkwardly and inconveniently contains two more “Promises.” It clearly
would not be good form, not to mention good theater, to have “The 14
Promises.”

The affinity for the number 12 began in December 1938 when Bill W
expanded the 6 Steps, then used as the program of recovery, into the
12 Steps we know today. In “AA Comes of Age” (pg 161). Bill wrote:

“Finally I started to write. I set out to draft more than six steps;
how many more I did not know. I relaxed and asked for guidance. With a
speed that was astonishing, considering my jangling emotions, I
completed the first draft. It took perhaps half an hour. The words
kept right on coming. When I reached a stopping point, I numbered the
new steps. They added up to twelve. Somehow this number seemed
significant. Without any special rhyme or reason I connected them with
the twelve apostles. Feeling greatly relieved now, I commenced to
reread the draft.”

This same wonderful man wrote what is today christened “The Promises.”
He elected to neither number them nor give them a name.

AA abandoned the circle and triangle logo years ago (we essentially
gave away their trademark and copyright by allowing vendors to put the
logo on chips and medallions). The Steps, Traditions and Concepts
constitute what are called the “Three Legacies.” While the triangle
was once used to symbolize the Three Legacies, it is no longer
included in Conference-approved literature and other material.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

(2) From: Arkie Koehl <arkie@arkoehl.com> Date: Mon May 30, 2005

Probably discussed here before, but I'm convinced there was some sort of
duodecimal fixation going on <g>. 12 Concepts of World Service, 12 Steps, 12
Traditions, 12 Promises. Plus other numbered arcana which are factors of the
number 12, e.g., 6 warrants, 3 legs of service, circle/triangle symbol. I'm
sure
I missed some.
Perhaps this numerological fixation can be reduced to a single starting
point:
the old Ballantine Ale "Three-Ring Sign"? Or expanded to the well-known
saying:
"24 beers in a case; 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think NOT!" :-)

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu

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(3) From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> Date: Mon May 30, 2005

Jacqueline wrote: "I ask you those questions as I have the feeling, more
specially for the newcomers, that there is a confusion and think that our AA
Triangle has four bases: Steps/Traditions/Concepts/Promises ! which leads to
a
possible misunderstanding."

You are absolutely right. To take the "promises" on pages 83 and 84 out of
the
book and present them as "The Twelve Promises" is to take them out of
context.

There have been requests for a service piece on "The Twelve Promises" but it
was
rejected on this basis.

Jim

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++++Message 2454. . . . . . . . . . . . Plays, skits
From: Tony Wade . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2005 1:02:00 PM

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Hi,

My new website is now up and running. It's called
<http://www.recoveryskits.com/> and they are all free. I have one called
"The
Time Machine" about Bill and Dr. Bob being brought to 2005 which I'm going
to
add soon. Thanks!

Tony

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++++Message 2455. . . . . . . . . . . . Wilson House Founders'' Day
Celebration 2005
From: David Grant . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/2/2005 9:16:00 PM

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The schedule at the Wilson House remains unchanged this year.

There is a graveside service at 1:00PM.

At 2:00 PM, a speaker meeting takes place on the Griffith House lawn
directly adjacent to the Wilson House.

There is a cookout that starts after the speaker, usually around 3:30PM with
a suggested donation of around $5.00.

Each year, speakers are chosen who have had a past personal relationship
with Bill. As time passes, every year finds the speakers a tad older.

One piece for the graveside service involves the placing of a pot of
geraniums on Bill's grave. A couple years back, a newcomer, barely a week
sober had the honor. Stepping wide eyed in front of a hundred or more
folks, his hands shaking, he laid the geraniums on Bills grave, then stepped
back quickly into the crowd. It was an amazing sight and so truly apropos
for the day.

This year it may actually be sunny in E. Dorset!

In Service,

David G.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Lash" <barefootbill@optonline.net>

> Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills NY
> Lois Wilson Annual Picnic
> Saturday, June 4
> http://www.steppingstones.org
>
>
> The Wilson House in East Dorset VT
> Bill Wilson Day
> Sunday, June 5
> http://www.wilsonhouse.org
>
>
> Akron OH
> June 10 - 12
> http://www.akronaa.org

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++++Message 2456. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who you see here, what you hear
here...
From: Bob Barnes . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/2/2005 10:23:00 PM

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"Who you see here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay
here."

This belongs to Alanon. AA just started using it. It was also used in 1944
in
Wendover Utah by the 509th Bomb Group when Paul Tibbetts was training the
509th
for their mission of delivering the A-Bombs to Japan. Hiroshima and
Nagasaki.

Bob Barnes

---------------------------------

From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 9:15pm

Where did this statement come from??

Al-Anon. It is printed on a blue and white folding card and is conference
approved (by Al-Anon).

Jim

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++++Message 2457. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Living Sober book
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/2/2005 9:26:00 PM

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I have a question about the history behind one of the conference-approved
books AA has today which is "Living Sober."

Excerpt from AA World History (unpublished manuscript)

"Living Sober," the other booklet, published in 1975, had a more tortuous
history. Around 1968, there were discussions by the Board of the need for a
pamphlet for sober old-timers, and the need to point out "traps" or "danger
signals." Members of the Literature Committee and others were asked to
submit their ideas. Out of this grew a specific proposal for a piece of
literature to be developed around the topic, "How We Stay Sober." It was in
outline form by October 1969, and was assigned to a professional writer on
the staff of a prestigious national magazine. After nearly two years of
work, he submitted a complete draft.. Which everyone agreed would not do at
all. They felt it needed such drastic revision that it should be started
again from scratch by a new author. Barry L., a seasoned, skillful freelance
writer/consultant for G.S.O. was given the task. With Bob H., general
manager of G.S.O., he negotiated a flat fee for the project. After four and
a half years of organizing material and writing . and probably some
procrastinating, as well, Barry came up with a simple, intensely practical,
charmingly written manual on how to enjoy a happy, productive life without
drinking. It was not spiritual and contained nothing about getting sober;
but it was chock-full of the kind of advice and suggestions a newcomer might
get from a super-sponsor. ("A.A.'s First Aid Kit" was Bayard's name for it.)
And it was written in a style unlike any other A.A. literature: breezy,
impertinent, colloquial and informal. "Living Sober" proved to be hugely
popular, and after it had sold nearly a million copies, Barry L. felt he
should have been compensated more generously and should receive some sort of
royalty. He sent a letter to all past Trustees and G.S.O. staff members with
whom he was acquainted, to advance his claim. The AAWS Board and the General
Service Board considered his case, but declined to take action. He then
threatened legal recourse, but perhaps realizing the weakness of his case,
never followed through.

Jim

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++++Message 2458. . . . . . . . . . . . I am responsible
From: Gallery . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/2/2005 11:54:00 PM

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Here's a good question for this group.
There's been some discussion in my home group about the context of the; "I
am responsible. When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help..." text. My
sponsor found the quote in Pass It On, on page 181. Do any of you have the
Responsibility Declaration from the International Convention 1965 that it
mentions or know where I can find it? I'd like to read more of the context
around this statement. Just from the brief story presented in Pass It On, it
seems that it's referring to the movement of the fellowship across the
globe.
My question revolves around the idea that it's often taken out of context
and causes a blur in our singleness of purpose.
Any thoughts would be also be appreciated. Thanks.

Rotax Steve
Nangi namaj perez

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++++Message 2459. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Jim S. Son Of A Country
Physician pg 232 4th Edition
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2005 5:19:00 PM

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Hi Carl
-
Jim Scott , MD, a black physician (Big Book story “Jim’s story”)
spoke at the 1955 “coming of age” convention in Cleveland, OH (re “AA
Comes of Age” pg 37). You won’t find his name in the index of “AA
Comes of Age” (this also true of quite a few other names in the book).
“Jim’s Story” first appeared in the 2nd edition and has been carried
thru to the 4th edition.
-
Dr Jim resided in the Washington DC area. In “Jim's Story” it cites
that his main assistance came from Charlie G (his sponsor - a
Caucasian) and Ella G (a black woman) who introduced Jim to his
sponsor. Dr Jim sobered up in 1943.
-
“Jim's Story” and “AA Comes of Age” credit him with starting the 1st
black group but I don't believe that is factual (he started the first
black group in Washington DC but not the US). I’ve also heard of him
being referred to as “the black Dr Bob.” He reputedly was a prolific
12th-Stepper and used his home as a halfway house and hospital. His
wife, Viola, is likened to Anne Smith for her tireless assistance to
him.
-
The paragraph below is from the November 1980 Grapevine:
-
The first interracial group in the New York area started in the late
1940's. It was a slow process. There was a black group in Washington,
D.C., which was then segregated. Its founder, Jim S.(whose story is in
the Big Book), his wife Viola, and other members of the group used to
come to New York on weekends to help us. They were simply wonderful.
The black men and women in this area usually would show up at our
downtown meetings, one at a time, and never come back. We tried to
make one of the Greenwich Village meetings into an interracial group,
and that didn't work.
-
Dr Jim is sometimes confused with another Jim Scott from Akron, OH who
edited the stories for the 1st edition Big Book (the Akron, OH Jim
Scott’s Big Book Story was first titled “The News Hawk” and later
changed to “Traveler, Editor, Author”). His sober date is July 1937.
-
Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2460. . . . . . . . . . . . Akron pamphlet and Upper Room
From: john pizzamiglio . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/30/2005 4:05:00 PM

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Akron pamphlet from 1940/41:

I read a pamphlet written (I think) by Dr. Bob. In it there is made mention
of
reading The Upper Room. Anyone have info on what this is? I would appreciate
any responses.

Thanks, Pizza
---------------------------------
Hi,

I don't think that any AA historians believe that Dr. Bob wrote that little
Akron pamphlet himself, but it clearly must have had his approval, and
Sister
Ignatia's approval as well, because of the way it was used. So it gives us a
good look at early Akron AA at the beginning of the 1940s, right after the
Big
Book was published, and the kinds of approach to the program that Dr. Bob
and
Sister Ignatia were encouraging.

The Upper Room was a series of little paperback booklets, with a meditation
for
each day. The old southern Methodist church began publishing them in 1935,
the
same year that AA began, in Nashville, Tennessee. They are still being
published today.

From 1935 to 1948, The Upper Room was read every morning by more AAs than
any
other meditational work. Although the Oxford Group had the greatest
influence on
the development of early A.A. at the very beginning, The Upper Room was
clearly
the second greatest influence on early A.A. spirituality. You can see the
effect of ideas drawn from The Upper Room throughout the first 164 pages of
the
Big Book.

For a quick look at the kinds of things the Upper Room talked about, see
<http://hindsfoot.org/UpRm1.html>, which gives selections from the readings
in
some of the issues of The Upper Room published in 1938 and 1939, along with
commentary explaining some of the ideas which A.A. drew from this source: an
important part of their understanding of what was meant by character and
character defects, the emphasis on happiness as an inside job, the idea of
the
Divine Light within, and warnings against being too imprisoned by doctrines,
dogmas and church creeds. Also the dangers of resentment, instructions about
how to pray, entering the Divine Silence, learning to listen to God, opening
the
shutters of my mind to let in the Sunlight of the Spirit, taking life One
Day at
a Time, and above all, remembering that God is present with me at all times:
"Nearer is he than breathing, closer than hands or feet."

I'm glad you asked about it, because I wish that someone would come out with
something -- either in the form of a book, or something online -- which
would
enable present day AA members to look at copies of The Upper Room from that
early period. It would help people to better understand the nature of AA
spirituality and its roots.

Glenn Chesnut

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++++Message 2461. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who you see here, what you hear
here...
From: Bristol Fashion . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/3/2005 5:03:00 AM

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In reply to Richard..... this statement is printed on yellow cards over
here.
It is recently become part of the list of literature and can be obtained
from
our General Service Office in York. As the statement did not originate in
Alcoholics Anonymous, some people find this fact offensive. My dear late
sponsor, who was from an older generation, told us that this statement was
pinned up on the walls of the atomic bomb laboratories after the War. He
hated
to see this statement on the table at A.A. meetings because if taken
literally
it meant that we should not carry the message outside the meeting and that
it
encouraged secrecy and shame, and helped perpetuate any stigma of alcoholism
within our own Fellowship. What it really means to say is: DON'T GOSSIP !

If a reminder about this simply has to appear at a meeting then the
'Anonymity Statement' coming out of the Office in New York since 1993 is, to
my
mind, preferable. It goes like this: "Anonymity is the spiritual foundation
of all our Traditions. Please respect this and treat in confidence who you
see
and what you hear."

Yours
Editors

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++++Message 2462. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Living Sober book
From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/3/2005 7:56:00 AM

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In my home group where I got sober, we used this book for newcomers and
included the discussions from it for our Beginners Meeting.

My understanding for discussions, it is most often used, if not intended
for, beginners in sobriety. Although, contrary to your observations, when
studied in context with the Big Book I find no such conflicts as you
suggest. And highly recommend that the literature is relevant even for us
"long-timers".

The passage/apparent "opposite" is not in conflict, if you follow the
context from the Big Book to which you refer.

Others here can speak more directly and factually, especially as to the
authorship . . . I do know a couple of things, but not first hand.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of and25g
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:28 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Living Sober book

I have a question about the history behind one of the conference-approved
books AA has today which is "Living Sober." Recently, my home group has
decided to read and study this book once a month at our meeting. I find many
suggestions in this book which are sort of complete opposites of what our
Big Book promises for alcoholics. Things like not having alcohol in your
house, avoiding people, places, and things ....

I would like to find out more about how this book became approved by the
Fellowship, who are the authors... Any information is greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2463. . . . . . . . . . . . Guidelines for posting messages
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2005 12:04:00 PM

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Hi everybody,

Since we are continually adding new members (we now have 1305 members in
this
group, coming from all over the globe) it is occasionally useful to repeat
some
of the basic guidelines for posting messages. As Nancy Olson wrote them out
for
us:

1. We are not an AA group: the list is open to anyone interested in A.A.
history
whether AA members or not.

2. We are not a chat room: please do not use the list to comment on other
people's posts. Comment on the post ONLY if your message has additional
history
on the subject.

3. Personal opinions are to be avoided: no personal opinions, or posts based
just on rumor or vague memory of what someone told you will be posted. To
the
extent possible please list the sources for any information you send.

4. Not every message sent in will be posted. Part of what makes the group so
enjoyable is that the moderator uses some selectivity before posting
anything.

ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT (added by the present moderator):

5. It is very difficult, given the Yahoo group system, for the moderator to
forward a message from one member to another. We just get too many messages
for
the present moderator -- who already tends to get overwhelmed by the sheer
number of messages sent in (!!!) -- to copy your message onto Notepad, look
up
the other member's address, and then paste and send your message in an Email
addressed to him or her.

(a) So if you want to send an Email about one of the messages to the member
who
posted that message, go to

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

Each message gives the Email address of the person who posted it, so you can
use
that address and Email that person directly.

(b) If and only if you want to post a message for the entire group to read,
send
it to

AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

THANK YOU FOR HELPING ME ON THIS LAST ITEM.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend IN), Moderator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2464. . . . . . . . . . . . First 100 Members Revisited - Myth
vs. Fact
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2005 11:01:00 AM

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This posting is an appeal to exercise care that AAHistoryLovers not be
a vehicle for the propagation of myth (please see the edited messages
below). A very durable myth within AA today is the assertion that many
early members, whose stories appeared in the 1st Ed Big Book, died
drunk.

To state that this myth is built on a meager thread is putting it
mildly. Even more meager is the presentation of solid evidence to
substantiate the assertion. The myth is principally based on anecdotal
hearsay and its presumption of validity is based solely on droning
repetition.

Myths are easily spawned within AA and two common practices fuel their
propagation. The first is the construal of the figurative as the
literal; the second is the presumption that a member’s duration of dry
time somehow equates to their degree of knowledge and accuracy. It’s
one thing for a member to give testimony about what they have
personally observed and quite another if the testimony is about what
they sincerely believe. The strong verbal tradition in AA provides an
easy means for the propagation of myth. Repetition then gives the myth
the semblance of validity.

Let’s look at the myth in question.

In the introduction to the story section in the 2nd Ed Big Book it
states:

“When first published in 1939, this book carried twenty-nine stories
about alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with the greatest
number of readers, the new Second Edition (1955) carries a
considerably enlarged story section, as above described. Concerning
the original twenty-nine case histories, it is a deep satisfaction to
record, as of 1955, that twenty-two have apparently made full recovery
from their alcoholism. Of these, fifteen have remained completely
sober for an average of seventeen years each, according to our best
knowledge and belief.”

In the introduction to the “Pioneers of AA Section” stories of the 2nd
Ed it goes on to state:

“Dr Bob and the twelve men and women who here tell their stories were
among the early members of AA’s first groups. Though three have passed
away of natural causes, all have maintained complete sobriety for
periods ranging from fifteen to nineteen years as of this date 1955.
Today, hundreds of additional AA members can be found who have had no
relapse for at least fifteen years. All of these then are the pioneers
of AA. They bear witness that release from alcoholism can really be
permanent.”

22 of the stories that appeared in the 1st Ed Big Book were dropped
for the 2nd Ed.

These stories were not removed because the members went back to
drinking (although some did). According to Bill W’s introduction to
the stories in the 2nd Ed Big Book, 75+% (22 out of 29) of these early
members were sober as of AA’s 20th anniversary (1955). 7 of the 29 had
returned to drinking but subsequently sobered up again. Another 7 of
the 29 returned to drinking and did not sober up. The stories of 22
members were removed to establish a more representative sampling of
the cross-section of the AA membership - not because they were
drinking again or had died drunk.

If anyone is overly concerned that any of these early members returned
to drinking, please keep in mind that every one of them had at one
time been considered hopeless. Also keep in mind that the chief
characteristic that makes an alcoholic an alcoholic is the inclination
to drink again despite all kinds of evidence that says they have no
business picking up that first drink (i.e. the jaywalker story).

If anyone has credible evidence to the contrary regarding the above,
please submit it for scrutiny. There are similar myths circulating in
AA about the success rates and growth rates achieved in AA today
compared to the 1940s and 50s. Those too are premised on the most
slender of threads and appear far more agenda-driven than fact-based.

Arthur

------------------------------------------------------
From: dinobb_dinobb

I heard Clancy I. of Venice CA make the assertion that many of the
original members died drunk.

From: "Gallery" <gallery5@m...> Date: Thu May 12, 2005

I just listened to Clancy today: a tape called "Our Primary Purpose."
Don't know the date or place but I would guess it to be from the late
80's or early 90's and he said that "many of the original members died
drunk." I was going to post that same question myself. I know the
statistics in the Foreward don't match with that (50%, then 25% come
back - thus 75%).

Rotax Steve, Nangi namaj perez

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@o...> Date: Fri May 13, 2005

This is true, many of the 1st Edition Big Book story authors did not
stay sober. The earliest members learned a harsh lesson about recovery
from alcoholism that is a lesson to us all - it's an Oxford Group term
called "Continuance" (the last of the five C's). What they learned
from their own experience was that they don't just do the practical
program of recovery once & then rest on their laurels (past
achievements). We don't awaken spiritually & then this initial
awakening carries us for the rest of our lives. They learned this was
not enough. We need to awaken spiritually & then continue to deepen &
broaden our spiritual life through work & self-sacrifice for others.
The spiritual experience of a year ago will not keep us sober today,
just as the drink we had last week will not keep us drunk today. We
need to grow in spiritual understanding & effectiveness by staying
involved in all three parts of AA solution throughout our lives -
Recovery (which is the working & re-working of all 12 Steps), Unity
(AA meetings & interacting with other AAs), & Service (this includes
inside our fellowship as well as outside our fellowship, expecting
nothing in return). This 3-part solution is found in our Circle &
Triangle. This is a way of life, a design for living that works in
rough going. I have NEVER known ANYONE who was CURRENTLY involved in
ALL three parts of AAs solution on an ongoing basis who EVER went back
to drinking. Thanks for your important question. Take it easy & God
bless!

Just
Love,

Barefoot
Bill

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++++Message 2465. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Akron pamphlet and Upper Room
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2005 11:36:00 PM

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Hi, "Pizza"

Your question about the "Upper Room" was attached to a
good explanation by Glenn C about the meditation pamphlet.
It has always had one meditation page per day of the
month. Glenn gave a link to his article with examples
of the old "Upper Room" when A.A. was just starting.

http://hindsfoot.org/UpRm1.html

If you want to see what it looks like now, visit just
about any Methodist church. Most if not all have them
in a rack or on a table near an entrance.

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++++Message 2466. . . . . . . . . . . . FW: Twenty-Four Hours a Day author
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2005 7:12:00 AM

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From: ArtSheehan [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:25 PM
To: 'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Twenty-Four Hours a Day author

Hi

Janice is quite right. The AAHistoryLovers group has to be focused on
the objective of separating fact from myth and history from hearsay.
Although well intended, all too often members of the Fellowship are
far too inclined to interpret “duration of dry time” as “degree of
accuracy.” No matter whether old-timer or newcomer, it all depends on
how well the source has done their research. If the basis is all
anecdotal, then a healthy, polite skepticism is warranted.

You can also make use of the full internet as a research tool. Do a
Google (or equivalent) search with the search string “Richmond Walker”
Some excellent biographical information can be obtained from very
reliable sources. Below are two links from the Hazelden web site and
the wonderful West Baltimore web site’s article by our AAHL moderator.

From Hazelden

http://www.hazelden.org/servlet/hazelden/cms/ptt/hazl_7030.html?sh=t
<http://www.hazelden.org/servlet/hazelden/cms/ptt/hazl_7030.html?sh=t&
sf=t&page_id=27727> &sf=t&page_id=27727

From the West Baltimore Group

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/richmond_walker.htm

Cheers
Arthur

_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Janis R
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 2:52 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Twenty-Four Hours a Day author

Richmond Walker was a credit to AA. How do these rumors get started?
Just proves that being an old timer does not guarantee accuracy. I
have been to several meetings in Daytona Beach and they are very proud
of him. More than a few of their old timers knew him personally.

Janis S. Raley,
Assistant Director

Dallas Intergroup Association
6162 E. Mockingbird Lane, Suite 213
Dallas, Texas 75214
214-887-6699

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++++Message 2467. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth''s grave
From: brian thompson . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2005 10:50:00 PM

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Hello Group,
Does anyone know where Dr. Silkworth is buried? Was wondering if he might be
in
Akron? Am going there this weeekend for founders day.
BRIAN T. Camp Verde, AZ

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++++Message 2468. . . . . . . . . . . . Origional First ed. BB covers?
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/9/2005 1:13:00 PM

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Dear AA History Group,

My friend, Pia, is from Sweden; she wrote to me with the following query. I
suggested that she photograph the First Edition Big Book Covers and mail her
questions to GSO Archives in NY. My question is what other advice could I
offer. The following excerpts from her correspondence will better explain
the situation:
))))))))))))))

You see, when my beloved father passed away he left all his books and tapes
and EVERYTHING to me. I will be eternally grateful for that, it is a never
ending source of wisdom and knowledge. Still, there are two things in this
"collection" of AA-material that confuses me.

When I was going through all the books and everything I found two book
covers. One is safely kept in a glass-frame, the other one seems to be used.
And they are covers of the original Big Book...

I also have two copies of the re-production of the book, and if I look close
it says that it is a re-production of the original Big Book and that it is
produces by the Anonymous Press. This text is not there on the other covers.
Is it possible that my father has gotten his hands on two ORIGINAL covers or
have there been copies made without the text that says it is a
re-production?

And from another correspondence:

One of them (the one in the glass-frame) seems to come just out of the
presses, it has never even been folded.

Your help would be much appreciated.

Bob S,
rstonebraker212@insightbb.com <mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

Pia’s email address is: pia.edstrom@comhem.se
<mailto:pia.edstrom@comhem.se>

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++++Message 2469. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Akron pamphlet and Upper Room
From: jayaa82@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2005 7:02:00 AM

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The Akron Pamphlets were commissioned by Dr. Bob but written by Evan W. an
Akron member who had been a newspaper writer. Dr. Bob believed that the Big
Book might be too complicated for the "blue collar" member or others with
little education. The pamphlets are still printed and distributed by the
Akron
Intergroup

Jay M.

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++++Message 2470. . . . . . . . . . . . The upper room
From: anders byström . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2005 11:08:00 AM

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Hi group!

I'm an alkie from Sweden taking great pleasure reading things posted in this
group, and I've learnt a lot from it through the years. I'm very interested
in
getting to know if the book "The Upper Room" is still available in book
stores.
I've searched amazon for it with no luck.

Love and Service
Anders

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Anders,

It's not really a book, but more like a little magazine, folded and stapled
with
two staples at the fold. At present, they are being published every two
months
(the one I have on hand is the March-April 2005 Upper Room), 10.6 cm by 15.9
cm
(4-1/8 inch by 6-1/4 inch), 80 pages long.

Someone could subscribe to the present version at Customer Service, The
Upper
Room, P.O. Box 340012, Nashville TN 37203, toll free phone number (for the
United States) 1-800-757-9877. There is currently a Swedish language version
(along with editions in Polish, Spanish, Tagalog, Tamil, Thai, Urdu, Zomi,
and
so on. 44 different languages).

The problem for AA historians is that each year's edition is different. The
present day editions follow the same basic philosophy in some respects, but
there have been changes in perspective, because the United Methodist Church
today is different from the Methodist Episcopal Church South of the 1930's.

(In 1939, the three largest Methodist groups in the United States, the M.E.
Church, the M.E. Church South, and the Methodist Protestant Church, had a
merger, and later on the German-language-tradition Evangelical and United
Brethren Church joined the merger, to produce what is now called "The United
Methodist Church." Their points of view were not necessarily the same as the
old Southern Methodists prior to 1939. The Southern Methodists were the
Methodist Church of the old Confederacy and the Deep South. They seceded
from
the northern Methodists not long before the Civil War and formed their own
separate church. And the Methodists both north and south have also been
swept
by a number of different theological fads since the 1930's.)

I'm not trying to make it confusing and difficult, but the big problem is
that
an AA historian therefore could not safely use a 2005 copy of The Upper Room
to
try to figure out exactly what an AA member would have read in 1935, seventy
years earlier.

They would have all the back issues of The Upper Room from the 1930's and
1940's
at the Upper Room headquarters, which is still in Nashville, Tennessee,
right
next to the Vanderbilt University campus. They have most of them, I have
been
told, in the Perkins School of Theology library at Southern Methodist
University
in Dallas, Texas. Nashville and Dallas were both part of the old Southern
Methodist Church. Presumably some of the other Methodist seminary libraries
in
the United States might have copies from that period in their historical
archives section. Emory University in Atlanta was part of the old southern
church.

Dick B. (Hawaii) tells me that he contributed a number of issues from the
early
period to one of the AA archives, I believe the one at Stepping Stones, to
make
sure that AA people of later generations could have access to them.

The few copies I have from the early AA period were a gift from my wife, who
discovered them for sale on e-Bay, but that was a kind of fluke. The rare
book
dealers in this country do not realize that those old back issues could be
of
historical importance, so they don't carry them. And the copies used in my
family back during the 1940's, when I was a child, unfortunately have long
ago
been thrown away.

This was why I commented that it would be useful if someone in AA could
obtain
permission from The Upper Room to publish a book containing even a couple of
years worth of copies of their magazine from the 1930's. To make this truly
useful to AA historians, it would have to be a verbatim copy of everything
in
the magazines from that two-year period (or whatever), not just a selection
of a
few pages or paragraphs here and there. When people publish partial
selections,
it will always necessarily give a biased view of what was in the original.

People need to be aware also that prayers in The Upper Room are sometimes to
God, but also sometimes to Jesus Christ, and that all the meditations are
strongly biblically oriented. I'm totally comfortable with that, because
this
was my own childhood tradition, but not all modern AA people are. It's
strongly
Christian, just like the Oxford Group literature, and like God Calling by
Two
Listeners.

Modern AA however is spread all over the world, in places with all sorts of
different religions, which is why I wanted to mention that.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2472. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth''s Gravesite
From: Glenn . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2005 12:42:00 PM

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"The little doctor that loved drunks" is buried in the New Jersey seaside
town
of Long Branch. Which is also home to Fort Monmouth and Monmuth University
and
The San Alfonso Retreat House which holds Matt Talbot Retreats for
recovering
alcoholics.

By the by, Edwin T. (Ebby) Thatcher, Bill W's sponsor, is buried in Albany
Rural
Cemetery located near Albany, NY. No mention of Alcoholics Anonymous is made
on
either headstone.

Happily Trudging Today #9979
Glenn L
Birdsboro, PA

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From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

On Mar 22, 1951 William Duncan Silkworth MD (age 78) “the little doctor
who
loved drunks” and “medical saint” died of a heart attack at his home
at 45 W
81st St, NYC.

In his service as Medical Director at Towns and Knickerbocker Hospitals, he
was
credited with treating over 40,000 alcoholics.

His funeral was held at the Calvary Episcopal Church in NYC and he was laid
to
rest in Glenwood Cemetery in West Long Branch, NJ.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2473. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Living Sober book
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2005 1:19:00 PM

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Hi Jon and John

About the book “Living Sober”

It was written by NY member Barry L, published in 1975 and had a bit
of a tortuous history. Around 1968, there were discussions by the
Board of the need for a pamphlet for sober old-timers, and the need to
point out “traps” or “danger signals.” Members of the Literature
Committee and others were asked to submit their ideas. Out of this
grew a specific proposal for a piece of literature to be developed
around the topic, “How We Stay Sober.” It was in outline form by
October 1969, and assigned to a professional writer on the staff of a
prestigious national magazine. After nearly two years of work, he
submitted a complete draft which was rejected. The sense that it
needed such drastic revision led to it being started again from
scratch by a new author. Barry L, a seasoned, skillful freelance
writer/consultant for GSO was given the task.

Barry negotiated a flat fee for the project. After 4 1/2 years of
organizing material and writing, Barry came up with a simple and
practical manual on how to enjoy a happy, productive life without
drinking. It was not meant to be spiritual and contained nothing about
getting sober; but focused on the kind of advice and suggestions a
newcomer might get from a sponsor. “Living Sober” was written in a
style unlike other AA literature: breezy, impertinent, colloquial and
informal. It proved to be hugely popular.

About the author

After the book had sold nearly a million copies, Barry L felt he
should have been compensated more generously and should receive some
sort of royalty. He sent a letter to all past Trustees and GSO staff
members with whom he was acquainted, to advance his claim. AAWS and
the General Service Board considered his case but declined to take
action. Barry then threatened legal recourse, but perhaps realizing
the weakness of his case, never followed through.

Barry was one of the first homosexual members of the Fellowship. He is
mentioned in the book “Pass It On” (pgs 317-318) in regard to a 1945
incident that occurred at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC. Bill W was
called from the clubhouse by Barry to alert him of the arrival of “a
black man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing
women’s clothing and makeup.” He also admitted to being a “dope
fiend.” When asked what to do about it, Bill posed the question, “did
you say he was a drunk?” When answered “yes” Bill replied “well I
think that’s all we can ask.” Anecdotal accounts often erroneously say
that this individual went on to “become one of the best 12th Steppers
in NY.” It’s not true. The book “Pass It On” (pg 318) states that
“although he soon disappeared, (repeat “soon disappeared”) his
presence created a precedent for the Third Tradition.”

As an item of possible interest, not long ago the mark-up manuscript
used to record the final editorial changes for the 1st Ed Big Book was
auctioned off at over 1 1/2 million dollars. That manuscript was given
to Barry L as a gift by Lois W.

About the Big Book and other literature

There is no mention at all in the Big Book that other literature
should conformance to what is written in it. To the contrary, in its
closing paragraphs it states “Our book is meant to be suggestive only.
We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to
you and to us.”

You will not find rigid conformance between the Big Book and 12&12
which were written by the same author (Bill W) about the same program
of recovery. For example, the 2 chapters in the 12&12 on Steps 6 and 7
are far more expansive on these Steps than the mere 3 paragraphs that
describe them in the Big Book.

From 1951 on, determination of the content of AA literature has been
the product of the process of informed Group Conscience through the
Trustees Literature Committee, Conference Literature Committee and the
participants in the General Service Conferences. In service material
released by GSO, the following was offered:

“Conference-approved”--What It Means to You

The term “Conference-approved” describes written or audiovisual
material approved by the Conference for publication by GSO. This
process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with
AA principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the
recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the
AA Fellowship.

The term has no relation to material not published by GSO. It does not
imply Conference disapproval of other material about AA. A great deal
of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and AA
does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may
not read.

Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents
solid AA experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes
through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of
AAs from all over the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production.

Cheers
Arthur

_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon Markle
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 7:56 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Living Sober book

In my home group where I got sober, we used this book for newcomers
and included the discussions from it for our Beginners Meeting.

My understanding for discussions, it is most often used, if not
intended for, beginners in sobriety. Although, contrary to your
observations, when studied in context with the Big Book I find no such
conflicts as you suggest. And highly recommend that the literature is
relevant even for us "long-timers".

The passage/apparent "opposite" is not in conflict, if you follow the
context from the Big Book to which you refer.

Others here can speak more directly and factually, especially as to
the authorship . . . I do know a couple of things, but not first hand.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of and25g
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:28 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Living Sober book

I have a question about the history behind one of the
conference-approved books AA has today which is "Living Sober."
Recently, my home group has decided to read and study this book once a
month at our meeting. I find many suggestions in this book which are
sort of complete opposites of what our Big Book promises for
alcoholics. Things like not having alcohol in your
house, avoiding people, places, and things ...

I would like to find out more about how this book became approved by
the Fellowship, who are the authors... Any information is greatly
appreciated.

Thank you!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2474. . . . . . . . . . . . Story Source
From: TH . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2005 3:11:00 PM

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I recently obtained a few second edition Big Books, and one of them [8th
printing, 1966] had a typed story titled "The Reason You Were Chosen for
This Work." folded up in the pages. It starts, "God, in His wisdom selected
this group of men and women to be purveyors of His goodness."

I am curious as to what the source of this story is. I've been around the
rooms a few twenty-four hours and had not come across it.

Tommy in Baton Rouge.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2475. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator gone till July 6
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2005 2:09:00 PM

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AAHistoryLovers,

Today is June 17, 2005. Please don't send any more message to be posted
until
after July 6, 2005

The moderator is going out of town for two and a half weeks (campgrounds in
Newport, Pennsylvania and Bardstown, Kentucky) and will probably not have
any
access to the internet at all.

If messages build up on the Yahoo group pending message board, they are
discarded by the Yahoo computer system after a certain number of days. So
you
will be in danger of losing your message completely.

Likewise with email messages to the moderator. My email system will reject
messages after it gets too full, and I know it will not have the capacity to
handle two and half weeks worth of messages.

Thanks much!

Glenn Chesnut (moderator)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2476. . . . . . . . . . . . I Am Responsible statement
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2005 12:36:00 PM

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Message from Ernest Kurtz, to share with the AAHistoryLovers group:

New Grapevine Book reflects the theme of the 2005 International
Convention “I Am Responsible: The Hand of AA”

Thirty-eight stories in this volume look at the impact of AA’s
Responsibility
Declaration and what it means to individuals and to the Fellowship as a
whole.

Articles written by AA members and eminent nonalcoholic friends explore
what it’s like to take responsibility for ourselves and others.

http://www.aagrapevine.org/catalog/shop/booksub.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2477. . . . . . . . . . . . The Brattleboro Retreat
From: John . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2005 8:38:00 AM

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As a previous "almost Vermonter" noted, the mental
health and alcoholism treatment facility in
Brattleboro, Vermont has always been known as the
Brattleboro Retreat, not the Brattleboro Asylum.

This is the place a judge nearly committed Ebby
Thatcher to. It is a private institution, and was
widely used for people in mental and emotional
distress and people suffering from addictions.
People who were severely mentally ill were usually
committed to the Vermont State Hospital in Waterbury.

The Retreat has been around for nearly a century, I
believe. Many Vermont AAs have been through the
treatment programs there.

I went to AA meetings there on many occasions in the
1980s, and there are still at least a couple of AA
meetings held there every week.

Jan S.
Burlington, Vermont

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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++++Message 2478. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Origional First ed. BB covers?
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2005 3:51:00 PM

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Dust jackets issued with facsimile 1st Ed Big Books may lead you to
think they are genuine since they may show "Works Publishing Company"
and "$3.50" as the source and price on the inside fold of the dust
jacket.

Check the bottom of both inside folds for the word "reprint" in small
print or a phrase such as "source and price no longer apply." The
other giveaway is the presence of a year other than 1939.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2479. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: William James & spiritual
experience
From: philip luppy . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2005 1:21:00 PM

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Here is a biographical entry from World Authors 1900-1950.

Biography from World Authors 1900-1950 (1996)
Copyright (c) by The H. W. Wilson Company. All rights reserved.
James, William
Jan. 11, 1842-Aug. 26, 1910
JAMES, WILLIAM (January 11, 1842-August 26, 1910), American psychologist,
philosopher, long a professor at Harvard, and elder brother of the novelist
Henry James (1843-1916), was born in New York City, the son of Henry James,
Sr.
(1811-1882) and the former Mary Walsh.
William James was one of the most distinguished and influential
psychologists of all time; his pioneer work both in psychology and
philosophy is
still continually referred to. He may fairly be called the father of both
introspective psychology and (ironically in view of his religious bent)
behaviorism. He is also a chief father of literary modernism--and even,
perhaps,
of what is as yet uncertainly called "post-modernism" in literature and the
arts. He may plausibly be seen as standing behind not only behaviorism and
introspectionism, but also phenomenology and process philosophy--and
therefore
process theology.
James's peculiar upbringing was as crucial for him as it was for Henry and
the rest of his siblings, his brothers Wilkinson and Robertson and sister
Alice.
The father, Henry James, Sr., was himself a remarkable man. As Ralph Barton
Perry, William James's biographer, wrote in the Dictionary of American
Biography, Henry Sr. bequeathed to his eldest son his "exuberance, his
candor,
his tenderness, and [his] nervous sensitivity and instability."
William James, like his brother, attended several schools in Europe and in
New York while he was still small. Then, in 1855, he was taken off to Europe
once again, as part of a unique educational experiment. There, they were
educated by various tutors and in establishments all remarkable and all
enlightened, but in different ways. They spent time in Geneva, London, Paris
(where the ideas of the French socialist-anarchist Fourier were indelibly
etched
into Williams's consciousness), Boulogne, back in America at Newport, and
then
in Switzerland (again) and in Germany. These children were being prepared,
not
to be enlightened by the world, but to enlighten it. Two out of the five of
them
did so.
When James was ready for the world he hesitated between being a painter and
a scientist. When study at the studio of William M. Hunt assured him (but
not
others) that he could not attain proficiency, he entered the Lawrence
Scientific
School (1861), where he studied chemistry, comparative anatomy, and
physiology.
In late 1864 he entered the Harvard Medical School, and five years later
gained
his M.D.--but he never practiced as a physician. Rather, he chose to remain
at
Harvard for thirty-two years as, consecutively, instructor in physiology,
then
psychologist, and finally philosopher.
James's medical studies were twice interrupted: in 1865 when, believing that
he might become a field-naturalist, he joined Louis Agassiz's expedition to
the
Amazon basin in search of zoological specimens, and in 1867 by a journey to
Europe in quest of a cure for his fluctuating mental health. Perry, in his
Dictionary of American Biography piece on his old friend, explained that
"before
manhood" James was "already uprooted": he "had in fact formed the habit of
perpetual uprooting, of oscillation between ennui and the relish of
adventure."
This was a polite means of saying that James's state alternated between
depression and over-excitement (or "mania"). James's control and subsequent
use
of his illness in the investigation of human behavior, at a time when there
were
no anti-depressants or anti-psychotic drugs available to treat it, was
hardly
short of miraculous. While in Europe, where he was for eighteen months
between
1867 and 1868, he took two "cures," at Teplitz and at
Divonne. He read much in philosophy and in German literature, and managed to
return to America to obtain his medical degree; but he was by then
profoundly
depressed.
Although he was not thirty, his eyesight and his back were both giving him
abundant trouble. As Perry declared, "the amount and the quality of the
reading
on science, literature and philosophy which James accomplished during these
years of supposed incapacity exceeded the aspirations of most able-bodied
men."
Then, in about 1870, occurred the event that confirmed him in his work: he
was
"delivered" by a reading of the neo-Kantian and empiricist French
philosopher
Charles Renouvier's 1859 Traite de Psychologie Rationelle.
James, in Some Problems of Philosophy, wrote that Renouvier's empiricist
defense of free will had delivered him from "the monistic superstition in
which
I had grown up." Monism, like so many other philosophical terms, has been
used
in two rather different senses. Both senses agree that there is only one
thing
or one substance, but the first, as found in Spinoza and then in Hegel and
finally in late nineteenth-century absolute idealism, concentrates upon
unity,
upon the notion of the universe as a single entity. James's (and Bertrand
Russell's) neutral monism asserts that bodies and minds are "differently
collected assemblages of things of one kind," but concentrates on diversity,
on
the notion of many entities--or, as James put in one of his titles, that the
universe is "pluralistic." James and Russell claimed that phenomena could be
analyzed in terms of a common "neutral" entity ("neutral stuff") and thus
gave
precedence to neither body nor mind.
For James, "neutral monism" was the vehicle he used to explore the problem
that had intrigued him from the outset: "the union. . .of the empirical
temper
and method of science with the essential ideals and beliefs of religion," in
the
words of Ralph Barton Perry. The vein of consistency that runs through his
work
as a whole is his vision of all manifestations in terms of their function:
of
them not as whatever they might be, but of whatever they did.
"Dive back into the flux," recommended Henri Bergson, who influenced him.
James himself commented: "if you want to know reality, that flux which
Platonism, in its strange belief that only the immutable is excellent, has
always spurned: turn your face towards sensation, that fleshbound thing
which
rationalism has always loaded with abuse." So James, by his anti-rationalism
in
an age in which scientism and neo-positivism were coming to the fore,
exercised
an enormous influence upon the religiously minded (who felt themselves
assailed
by atheist reductionism), the sensitive and the "tender-minded" (his
phrase)--and he therefore influenced, quite often directly, the vast
majority of
creative writers, a section of humanity perpetually in search, as he was, of
the
meaning of existence.
Much of James's legacy to literature was by the natural course of
diffusion--but much, too, was direct. His version of pragmatism influenced
history itself; his classic The Principles of Psychology did more than any
other
single work to establish it as a discipline; his equally classic The
Varieties
of Religious Experience lay behind all the later attempts to judge religion
in
terms of its function; and his analysis of the nature of consciousness--he
coined the term "stream of consciousness"--directly affected both his
brother's
practice and much of the fiction of the twentieth century.
"Stream of consciousness" was not applied to English literature until
British novelist May Sinclair applied it, somewhat inaccurately, to the
fiction
of Dorothy M. Richardson. James himself had written, in the epoch-making
Chapter
IX of The Principles of Psychology ("The Stream of Thought"): "I can only
define
'continuous' as that which is without breach, crack, or division."
"Consciousness, then, does not appear to itself chopped up in bits. Such
words
as 'chain' or 'train' do not describe it fitly as it presents itself in the
first instance. It is nothing jointed; it flows." Henry James and then other
writers (Virginia Woolf, James Joyce, William Faulkner) understood the
distinction between the merely photographic or mimetic nature of the
so-called
Sekundenstil (recording of each second as it passes) practiced by the German
naturalists Arno Holz and Johannes Schlaf and James's more subtle account.
The
attempt to capture the essence or nature of consciousness was one of the
prime features of modernism.
James's pragmatism had a wide influence, particularly on John Dewey, who
eventually transformed it into the closely related "instrumentalism." This
can
be contrasted with the work of Charles Sanders Peirce, who coined the term
"pragmaticism" to distinguish his own philosophy from that of James, who had
borrowed the term "pragmatism" from him. In Ward Smith's definition:
"James's
[different] view can be fairly expressed without too gross
over-simplification
in the following compact way: that if a concept literally means no more nor
less
than what you do with it, then its truth must consist in no more nor less
than a
successful doing."
The popular view that James viewed the truth of a concept entirely in terms
of its function, its "cash value," is not quite accurate; but that was its
effect upon most of the world. The emphasis, in his middle and in his later
philosophy, is on the future. The reason that the later philosophy has often
been described as "esoteric" is that much of it is in line with the form of
thinking that is called mystical, and thus despised by rationalists. James
was
working towards a theory in which concepts and percepts (but he believed
that a
concept was really a percept "functioning in a certain way") were
essentially
predictive. Thus yet another vein running through his work is consistent:
his
psychology, his pragmatism, his radial empiricism--all these were,
essentially,
philosophies of hope.
In The Varieties of Religious Experience James pointed out, in the face of
the hope-denying "supersitious monism" which so distressed him, that where
belief transcends scientific evidence, it is necessary to "go beyond the
evidence" and, at the same time, to trust to the evidence of inner
experience,
to give it a place. He did not believe that the scientific method in itself,
as
applied to affairs external to the mind, was sufficient to deal with inner
experience. He was not complacent about this. Religious belief was to be
seen in
the first place in terms of its ability to enrich the spirit and to affect
behavior. He thought that empirical evidence tended towards, but did not yet
"prove," the fact that religious experience might originate in the
"unconscious"
and, behind that, in a cosmic "mother sea" that he equated with God. God and
humanity were for him united in a struggle against the defects of the
universe.
"And could paradise properly be good," he asked in his essay "The
Dilemma of Determinism" (in The Will to Believe), "in the absence of a
sentient
principle by which the goodness was perceived?"
Poor health made James's life a difficult one, and his marriage on July 10,
1878, to the former Alice Howe Gibbens--by whom he had three sons and a
daughter
(and a child that died in infancy)--was crucial for him. As Perry wrote, she
"was distinguished by the serenity of her disposition, as well as by her wit
and
beauty. . .the companionship which his family life provided were in no small
measure responsible for the fruitfulness of James's subsequent career." Ward
Smith adds, "Whatever one may say about [his] doctrines. . .one thing is
almost
universally admitted. It is impossible to read him without learning to love
and
admire the man. Even where you feel he is entirely wrong you are forced to
respect him. Every line he wrote breathes a spirit of uncompromising
intellectual honesty."

Suggested Reading: Daedalus Summer 1968; Etc Spring 1985; New England
Quarterly
June 1988; New Republic May 9, 1983; Personality and Social Psychology
Bulletin
December 1990; Philosophy East and West July 1987; Thought December 1979;
Yale
Review Summer 1954. Allen, G. W. William James: A Biography, 1967; Bixler,
J. S.
Religion in the Philosophy of Williams James, 1926; Boutroux, H. William
James,
1912; Cotkin, G. William James: Public Philosopher, 1990; Dictionary of
American
Biography, 1932; De Bono, E. (ed.) The Great Thinkers, 1976; Flournoy, T.
The
Philosophy of William James, 1917; Kallen, H. M. William James and Henri
Bergson, 1914; James, A. Alice James, Her Brothers--Her Journal, 1972;
Lovejoy,
A. O. The Thirteen Pragmatism and Other Essays, 1963; Lentricchia, F. Ariel
and
the Police, 1988; Morris, L. R. William James: The Message of a Modern Mind,
1950; Perry, R. B. The Thought and Character of William James, 2 vols.,
1935;
Poirier, R. Poetry and Pragmatism, 1992; Roth, J.
K. Freedom and the Moral Life: The Ethics of William James, 1969; Royce, J.
William James and Other Essays, 1911; Smith, J. E. Purpose and Thought: The
Meaning of Pragmatism, 1978; Turner, J. E. An Examination of William James's
Philosophy, 1919; Urmson, J. O. (ed.) Concise Encyclopedia of Western
Philosophy
and Philosophers, 1960; Wild, J. The Radical Empiricism of William James,
1969.
Bibliography--McDermott, J. D. Annotated Bibliography of the Writings of
William
James in The Writings of William James: A Comprehensive Edition, 1977.

Selected Works: Collected edition--The Works of William James, 1975-.
Philosophy
and psychology--The Principles of Psychology, 2 vols. 1890; Psychology
(Briefer
Course) 1892; Is Life Worth Living? 1896 (lecture); The Will to Believe,
1897;
Human Immortality: Two Supposed Objections to the Doctrine, 1898; Talks to
Teachers of Psychology, and to Students on Some Life's Ideals, 1899; The
Varieties of Religious Experience, 1902; Pragmatism, 1907; The Energies of
Man,
1908; The Meaning of Truth: A Sequel to "Pragmatis," 1909; A Pluralistic
Universe, 1909; Some Problems of Philosophy, 1911; Memories and Studies,
1911;
Essays in Radical Empiricism 1912; Collected Essays and Reviews, 1920; Perry
R.
B. (ed.) Essays on Faith and Morals 1943; Murphy, G. (ed.) William James on
Psychical Research 1960. Other--James, H. (ed.) Letters of William James 2
vols.
1920; Hardwick, E. (ed.) Selected Letters 1961. As editor--The Literary
Remains
of the Late Henry James (Sr.) 1884.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here is another biographical entry which may be of use.

Biography from American Authors 1600-1900 (1938)
Copyright (c) by The H. W. Wilson Company. All rights reserved.
James, William
Jan. 11, 1842-Aug. 26, 1910
JAMES, WILLIAM (January 11, 1842-August 26, 1910), psychologist and
philosopher,
was born in New York City, the eldest child of the theologian Henry James,
Sr.
[q.v.], and Mary Robertson (Walsh) James, and the elder brother of Henry
James,
Jr. [q.v.], the novelist. Like his brothers and sisters, he was reared by a
system which included at least a dozen schools in various parts of Europe,
and
numerous private teachers in Albany and New York. In his earlier years he
was
divided between art and science, and in 1860 he went to Newport to study
painting with William H. Hunt. The next year, however, found him in the
Lawrence
Scientific School at Harvard. At first his specialties were chemistry,
comparative anatomy, and physiology. In 1864 he entered the Harvard Medical
School, and in 1865 and 1866 he went with the Thayer Expedition, headed by
Agassiz, to Brazil. He returned, first to the Massachusetts General
Hospital,
then to the Harvard Medical School, and then spent eighteen months
in Dresden and Berlin. This was a period of the intensest mental depression,
amounting to suicidal melancholia, and the relief he found in philosophy was
the
starting point of his twofold interest in psychology and in the philosophy
of
religion. He received his M.D. from Harvard in 1869, but it was three years
more
before he found himself. His health was too frail and his sight too poor for
laboratory work, and he had never intended to practice medicine.
In 1872 he was appointed instructor in physiology in Harvard, and his
connection
with the university did not cease until 1907, when he became professor
emeritus
of philosophy. As instructor, assistant professor, and professor, he had
taught
physiology, psychology, and philosophy. He inaugurated the course on the
philosophy of evolution; his was the first course in America on the relation
of
psychology to physiology; and in 1876 he established the first American
psychological laboratory, in which Stanley Hall was one of the early
students.
In 1878 James married Alice Howe Gibbons, a markedly happy and companionable
union which resulted in five children, of whom four survived him. His years
at
Harvard were punctuated with many European trips, all of 1882 and 1883 being
spent abroad. In 1878 he was commissioned to write his famous Principles of
Psychology, which appeared in the form of articles in technical journals
until
its publication as a book in 1890. As early as 1884 he enunciated the theory
of
visceral emotions (we do not laugh because we are happy, we are happy
because we
laugh), known as the James-Lange theory.
A lover of unpopular causes, James joined the Society for Psychical Research
in
1882 and its American branch in 1884, serving as president of the parent
organization in 1894 and 1895. In the same spirit of tolerance and
open-mindedness he defended faith healers and opposed the Spanish-American
War.
In 1896 and 1898 lecture tours took him all over the country for the first
time;
he grew especially attached to the West, and lectured at both the University
of
California and Stanford. Invited to give the Gifford Lectures at the
University
of Edinburgh, he sailed for Europe in 1899. An unwise amount of exercise had
badly strained his heart, and all year he was very ill; however, he prepared
and
gave the lectures, the groundwork of his celebrated Varieties of Religious
Experience, and was able to return to teach at Harvard, and to give a second
course of lectures at Edinburgh in 1902.
By this time James was the most famous living American philosopher, with an
international reputation evidenced by doctorates from Edinburgh, Padua,
Geneva,
and Oxford. In 1906 he was visiting professor at Stanford University, an
engagement cut short by the disastrous California earthquake. The next year
he
retired from active work at Harvard, though he delivered the Hibbert
Lectures at
Oxford in 1908. In 1910, when his brother Henry was ill, William James and
his
wife went to him in England; they returned to America together, but the
older
brother was barely able to reach his beloved country home, at Chocorua,
N.H.,
before another heart attack proved fatal.
William James is generally conceded to be, with Emerson, the greatest
philosophic mind which has yet emerged in America. His theory of Pragmatism,
an
advanced empiricist philosophy (empiricism being the doctrine that truth is
based on experience and observation), has been badly understood and has been
degraded by some who considered themselves his disciples. To him, it was
pragmatic that "a thing is what is experienced" and that the way a thing
"works"
is the best available criterion of the truth of a human cognition. The
relations
between things are as important as the things themselves, and things with
their
relations--"things" including beliefs and thoughts--together account for all
that exists, with no need for a mysterious "unknowable" or "first cause"
behind
them. Many doctrines avowedly based on James, however, are mere travesties
of
his theory.
By his own definitions, James himself was both "tough-minded" and
"tender-minded." His nature was a compound of gallantry and sympathy; he was
a
moody, sensitive, vibrant, deeply ethical human being, with the geniality
and
humor--and also the neurasthenia--of his Celtic forebears. To look at his
portrait--the long, pointed nose, the thinker's forehead and deep-set eyes,
the
retreating chin beneath the straggly beard--is to realize that here was a
man
for whom life would be either heaven or hell, who by the accident of fate
might
construct a world's philosophies or sink into the darkness of introspective
melancholy. He was not the least remarkable of a very remarkable family--all
neurotic, all brilliant, but none of them so grounded in actuality as he.
Into both psychology and philosophy, William James the author broke like a
bombshell. He was incapable of dull or stodgy writing; he had a genius for
the
concrete and vivid phrase, the telling word. It was activity that most
interested him, and he could make the dullest and most abstruse of theories
at
once clear and vivacious. He was profoundly an individual, an enzyme in the
blood of philosophic thought, actuating all who came under his influence,
though
never sufficiently dogmatic, always too much his unique self, to found any
frozen school. He was a biological sport, a variation, and he brought new
life
into the dying bones of aged philosophy, just as he breathed force and
direction
into the sturdy youngster, experiental and functional psychology. His world,
"so
various, so beautiful, so new," was the world of the future, and, as
Professor
Kallen remarks, "his positive work still is prophetic."

Suggested Reading: Boutroux, E. E. M. William James; Flournoy, T. The
Philosophy
of William James; Grattan, C. H. The Three Jameses; James, H. A Small Boy
and
Others, Notes of a Son and Brother; Kallen, H. M. The Philosophy of William
James; Perry, R. B. In the Spirit of William James; Royce, J. William James
and
Other Essays; Sabin, E. E. William James and Pragmatism.

Selected Works: Principles of Psychology, 1890; Psychology: Briefer Course,
1892; The Will to Believe, and Other Essays in Popular Philosophy, 1897;
Talks
to Teachers on Psychology and to Students on Some of Life's Ideals, 1899;
The
Varieties of Religious Experience, 1902; Pragmatism, 1907; A Pluralistic
Universe, 1908; The Energies of Men, 1908; The Meaning of Truth, 1909;
Memories
and Studies, 1911; Some Problems of Philosophy, 1911; Essays in Radical
Empiricism, 1912. Letters (ed. by H. James) 1920.

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++++Message 2480. . . . . . . . . . . . Twenty-Four Hours a Day author
corrected link
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2005 4:18:00 PM

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This is the link to the Hazelden article on Richmond Walker and Twenty-Four
Hours a Day which we are trying to post:

<http://www.hazelden.org/servlet/hazelden/cms/ptt/hazl_7030.html?sh=t&sf=t&p
age_\

id=27727 [9]>

If this does not work, do a Google Search on the string “Richmond
Walker” and
follow the link to Hazelden.

Arthur

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++++Message 2481. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Origional First ed. BB covers?
From: Ron Sessions . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2005 9:42:00 PM

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Pia (Bob),

I always liked the way the 1st edition dust jacket looked. It reminds
me of the cover of Action Comics #1 (June 1938). Being a comic buff
in my younger years, this rag was the 'bee's knees' of comics. It has
a similar appearance with the bright yellows, reds and black.
Anyway...

Over the years many people have made reproductions of the 1st Edition
Dust Jacket. Unfortunately some have done this for unscrupulous
reasons. Anonymous Press has intentionally 'marked' theirs to prevent
them from being passed off as original. You can get very nice
(although intentionally not 100% exact) reproduction dust jackets for
1st and 2nd edition big books on e-Bay (no, I don't sell them).

CTM (Carry the Message, Inc) printed a beautiful reproduction of the
1st Printing in 1985, 1989 and 1992 (a total of approx. 15,000
copies) The dust jackets for these were excellent, but were marked on
the inside front flap 'REPRINT CTM 1992' - at least mine is. Also on
the back inside flap under the address Box 657 address it is
marked 'Source and price no longer apply'.

A reliable source told me that these dust jackets have been altered
to remove the small notes and tried to be passed off as real ones.

The fact that it appers to have never been folded makes me think it
is probably a reproduction.

Anyway, there are some tell tale signs with Dust Jackets that might
help narrow down what it is:

-With the exception of the 1st printing, all other printings (2 thru
16) had the printing number printed one the spine in the white area
of the dust jacket.

-Sizes varied a great deal depending on the printing (war time
editions were very thin and had smaller dust jackets).

-The information printed on the back of the book changed (starting
with the 8th printing I think)

-There are changes in address (Box 657 to Box 459) and also in
publisher (Works Publishing to AA Publishing)

The above only apply to US printings. To the best of my knowledge
there were 1st editions printed overseas - and the dust jackets were
very similar to the US versions.

I don't know if the above has helped - but I hope so.

Ron Sessions

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++++Message 2482. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration,
W.Long Branch NJ, 7/23/05
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2005 2:26:00 PM

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You are cordially invited to the second annual Dr. Silkworth birthday
celebration!

Saturday, July 23, 2005 at 3:00PM
(rain date July 30, 2005)

At his gravesite in Glenwood Cemetery,
Route 71 (Monmouth Rd.),
West Long Branch NJ.

Speakers: Barbara Silkworth (a family member) and Stan B. from the
Sayreville Victories Group (sober date 9/30/59).

Dr. William Duncan Silkworth is the author of the two letters in the
“Doctor’s Opinion” in the Big Book “Alcoholics Anonymous” and is
known as a friend to millions of alcoholics worldwide. He worked
with Bill Wilson, AA’s co-founder in N.Y.C., after Bill finally got
sober in 1934. He gave deep understanding and great encouragement to
an infant society in the days when a lack of understanding or a word
of discouragement might easily have killed it. He freely risked his
professional reputation to champion an unprecedented spiritual answer
to the medical enigma and the human tragedy of alcoholism. Without
his blessing, our faith might well have died in its birth. He was a
luminous exception to the rule that only an alcoholic understands an
alcoholic. He knew us better than we knew ourselves, better than we
know each other. Many of us felt that his medical skill, great as
that was, was not at all the full measure of his stature. Dr.
Silkworth was something that it is difficult even to mention in these
days. He was a saintly man. He stood in an unusual relationship to
truth. He was able to see the truth of a man, when that truth was
deeply hidden from the man himself and from everyone else. He was
able to save lives that were otherwise beyond help of any kind. Such
a man cannot really die. We wish to honor this man, a gentle doctor
with white hair and china blue eyes.
Dr. Silkworth lived on Chelsea Avenue in Long Branch, attended Long
Branch High School where he has been inducted in that school’s Hall
of Fame, graduated from Princeton University, and lived for a while
in Little Silver. He was born on July 22, 1873 and died on March 22,
1951.

PLEASE BE SURE TO BRING A LAWN CHAIR OR SOMETHING TO SIT ON.
If you have any questions please call Barefoot Bill at
201-232-8749 (cell).

Directions:
Take the Garden State Parkway (north or south) to Exit 105 (Route 36),
continue on Route 36 approximately 2.5 to 3 miles through 5 traffic
lights (passing Monmouth Mall, two more shopping plazas, and several
automobile dealerships). Watch for green road signs stating “Route 71
South, West Long Branch and Asbury Park” (this is before the sixth
light). Take this turnoff to the right, past Carriage Square and bear
right onto Route 71 (Monmouth Road.) Glenwood Cemetery appears very
quickly on the left. The entrance is marked by two stone pillars and
the name. Once inside the cemetery, bear left, go up the hill and
make the first right (a hard right). The gravesite is near the first
tree on the right.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2483. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Story Source
From: PR_Magoo . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2005 2:27:00 PM

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"Why We Were Chosen" .... one of my favorites!
Your question was answered in an older message, from Jim Blair. See message
which contains the:

Address by Judge John T.
4th Anniversary of the Chicago Group
October 5, 1943

Phil

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++++Message 2484. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The upper room
From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2005 7:49:00 PM

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Hey Group,

I have found a complete run of all of the Upper Room Magazines
from the first one in APR/MAY/JUN of 1935 (they began when Dr Bob got sober)
to
the end 1953...

I found them on Ebay and have paid about $2.00 apiece for them.

There were 10's of thousands of them printed each month.
They are pretty easy to find.

Doug B.

"anders byström" wrote:
> Hi group!
>
> I'm an alkie from Sweden taking great pleasure reading things posted in
this
group, and I've learnt a lot from it through the years. I'm very interested
in
getting to know if the book "The Upper Room" is still available in book
stores.
I've searched amazon for it with no luck.
>
> Love and Service
> Anders
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Anders,
>
> It's not really a book, but more like a little magazine, folded and
stapled
with two staples at the fold. At present, they are being published every two
months (the one I have on hand is the March-April 2005 Upper Room), 10.6 cm
by
15.9 cm (4-1/8 inch by 6-1/4 inch), 80 pages long.
>
> Someone could subscribe to the present version at Customer Service, The
Upper
Room, P.O. Box 340012, Nashville TN 37203, toll free phone number (for the
United States) 1-800-757-9877. There is currently a Swedish language version
(along with editions in Polish, Spanish, Tagalog, Tamil, Thai, Urdu, Zomi,
and
so on. 44 different languages).
>
> The problem for AA historians is that each year's edition is different.
The
present day editions follow the same basic philosophy in some respects, but
there have been changes in perspective, because the United Methodist Church
today is different from the Methodist Episcopal Church South of the 1930's.
>
> (In 1939, the three largest Methodist groups in the United States, the
M.E.
Church, the M.E. Church South, and the Methodist Protestant Church, had a
merger, and later on the German-language-tradition Evangelical and United
Brethren Church joined the merger, to produce what is now called "The United
Methodist Church." Their points of view were not necessarily the same as the
old Southern Methodists prior to 1939. The Southern Methodists were the
Methodist Church of the old Confederacy and the Deep South. They seceded
from
the northern Methodists not long before the Civil War and formed their own
separate church. And the Methodists both north and south have also been
swept
by a number of different theological fads since the 1930's.)
>
> I'm not trying to make it confusing and difficult, but the big problem is
that
an AA historian therefore could not safely use a 2005 copy of The Upper Room
to
try to figure out exactly what an AA member would have read in 1935, seventy
years earlier.
>
> They would have all the back issues of The Upper Room from the 1930's and
1940's at the Upper Room headquarters, which is still in Nashville,
Tennessee,
right next to the Vanderbilt University campus. They have most of them, I
have
been told, in the Perkins School of Theology library at Southern Methodist
University in Dallas, Texas. Nashville and Dallas were both part of the old
Southern Methodist Church. Presumably some of the other Methodist seminary
libraries in the United States might have copies from that period in their
historical archives section. Emory University in Atlanta was part of the old
southern church.
>
> Dick B. (Hawaii) tells me that he contributed a number of issues from the
early period to one of the AA archives, I believe the one at Stepping
Stones, to
make sure that AA people of later generations could have access to them.
>
> The few copies I have from the early AA period were a gift from my wife,
who
discovered them for sale on e-Bay, but that was a kind of fluke. The rare
book
dealers in this country do not realize that those old back issues could be
of
historical importance, so they don't carry them. And the copies used in my
family back during the 1940's, when I was a child, unfortunately have long
ago
been thrown away.
>
> This was why I commented that it would be useful if someone in AA could
obtain
permission from The Upper Room to publish a book containing even a couple of
years worth of copies of their magazine from the 1930's. To make this truly
useful to AA historians, it would have to be a verbatim copy of everything
in
the magazines from that two-year period (or whatever), not just a selection
of a
few pages or paragraphs here and there. When people publish partial
selections,
it will always necessarily give a biased view of what was in the original.
>
> People need to be aware also that prayers in The Upper Room are sometimes
to
God, but also sometimes to Jesus Christ, and that all the meditations are
strongly biblically oriented. I'm totally comfortable with that, because
this
was my own childhood tradition, but not all modern AA people are. It's
strongly
Christian, just like the Oxford Group literature, and like God Calling by
Two
Listeners.
>
> Modern AA however is spread all over the world, in places with all sorts
of
different religions, which is why I wanted to mention that.
>
> Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2485. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Responsibility declaration
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2005 9:17:00 PM

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Hi Steve

Don't be amazed - be patient - some things take longer to research.

The 1965 (15th) General Service Conference was held April 19-24, in
the Hotel Roosevelt in NYC. The Conference theme was "Responsibility
to Those We Serve." There was an historic measure of responsibility
introduced by the Trustees at the 1965 Conference for final decision
at the 1966 Conference (at which it passed). That historic measure was
a Board proposal to restructure the composition of the General Service
Board to consist of a 2/3 majority of Class B (alcoholic) Trustees.

Bill W addressed the 1965 Conference after the Trustees' proposal was
submitted:

"Speaking on behalf of AA's Board of Trustees, our devoted friend and
Chairman. Dr Jack Norris has called upon us to face a far reaching
responsibility. Future AA historians will no doubt record this
occasion as a major turning-point in the unfoldment of our well-loved
Fellowship. This is because we are now to reconsider, and perhaps to
recast, the whole nature and composition of AA's future world
leadership. As we meditate upon this long unresolved problem, it would
be well to recall that in the affairs of new societies and of nations,
the determination of their ultimate leadership has ever been a matter
of crucial importance. This is the teaching of all human history.

Dr Jack has specifically requested us of Alcoholics Anonymous - at the
level of our Board of Trustees - to assume the primary role in the
conduct of AA's world affairs. He has presented a detailed program for
achieving this, a plan almost unanimously recommended by his fellow
Trustees. Should we adopt this new concept in 1966, the chief
responsibility for the guidance of our world affairs would then be
shifted from the nonalcoholics of our present Board to the alcoholic
Trustees of the new Board."

The spirit of the 1965 General Service Conference theme also pervaded
the 1965 International Convention and 30th anniversary in Toronto,
Canada. The Convention theme was simply stated as "Responsibility."
Estimated attendance was 10,500. The keynote was "The Declaration"
AA's responsibility pledge: "I am responsible. When anyone, anywhere,
reaches out for help, I want the hand of AA always to be there. And
for that I am responsible."

There is a brief summary of this in the front "Landmarks" section of
"AA Comes of Age" pg x.

Printed on wallet cards and in many AA pamphlets, the Responsibility
Declaration has been quoted and recited innumerable times. At least
two attempts have been made at General Service Conferences to change
the wording of the Declaration to make it more specific to alcoholics
and less inclusive. The attempts failed - largely due to the
historical nature of the event which took place in Toronto in 1965.

The Declaration was written by Al S. He served in the past as a Class
B (alcoholic) Trustee, AAWS Director, Grapevine Director, Grapevine
Editor and Director of the NY Intergroup Association. When Al became
the Grapevine Editor in 1949, the magazine wasn't too well known
around the country. There were many months when he wrote the entire
issue by himself, signing each article with a different set of
initials and giving a different locality. Al was also the member who
drove a grievously ill Dr Bob home to Akron from his last public
appearance at the 1950 International Convention in Cleveland.

"Dr Jack" Norris, Chairman of the Generals Service Board in 1965 wrote
a message for the memento booklet prepare for the 1965 International
Convention. He ended it with:

"But as we talk of thousands of Groups we must remember that AA will
continue strong only so long as each of us freely and happily gives it
away to another person, only as each of us takes our fair share of
responsibility for sponsorship of those who still suffer, for the
growth and integrity of our Group, for our Intergroup activities, and
for AA as whole."

"It is in taking responsibility that real freedom and the enduring
satisfaction of life are found. AA has given us the power to choose -
to drink or not to drink - and in so doing has given us the freedom to
be responsible for ourselves. As we become responsible for ourselves,
we are free to be responsible for our share in AA, and unless we
happily accept this responsibility we lose AA. Strange, isn't it?"

Convention attendees filled the Toronto Maple Leafs Garden on Saturday
night, July 3. Bernard B Smith, nonalcoholic Trustee who had been
associated with AA for 21 years, spoke that "one of the most glorious
fruits of AA recovery from alcoholism; namely, individual freedom to
accept responsibility for ourselves and for our share in AA as a
whole. As long as one man dwells in the darkness you once knew, you
cannot rest; you must try to find him and help him become one of you.
By the grace of God, may AA last for all time!"

Following the addresses by Bill W and Bernard B Smith, 90 Delegates
and members from all over the world emerged from behind an immense
banner at the rear of the stage, depicting the AA circle and triangle.
They joined the Trustees already seated on stage. All rose, clasped
hands, and led by Bill W; about 10,000 attendees recited the
Responsibility Declaration in unison:

This year, 40 years later, AA's 70th anniversary will also be held in
Toronto, Canada. Its theme will be "I Am Responsible." I'm
guesstimating the attendance will be 60,000+ so it should be a rather
profound experience when all recite the Responsibility Declaration
again.

Cheers
Arthur

PS - now be amazed (Rule #62).
_____

From: "Gallery" gallery5@mindspring.com Date: Wed Jun 8, 2005 0:05am
Subject: I am responsible

I'm amazed I have yet to hear from anyone on my question about; "I am
responsible. When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help..." text
question. Again, it's touched on in Pass It On - page 181. Seems after
reading just this little bit, that the context has been missed by
most. It's source was from the Responsibility Declaration from the
International Convention 1965.

I'd like to read more of the context around this statement. Seems to
me that it's referring to the movement of the fellowship across the
globe, not the hand of any Tom, Dick and Harry asking for help that
happens to show up at a meeting. Do any of you have the Responsibility
Declaration? Any thoughts would be also be appreciated as well.
Thanks.

Rotax Steve, Nangi namaj perez

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++++Message 2486. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Story Source
From: ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2005 1:29:00
AM

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Chicago AA published a pamphlet in the 1950s and continues to publish it
today, "Impressions of AA" that was taken from a talk given at a four-year
anniversary dinner in 1943. The writer and speaker was an Illinois Appellate
Court Judge, John Touhy. Judge Touhy was an early Chicago AA member and an
excerpt of his 1943 talk has been reprinted for many years in many places as
a wallet card "Why We Were Chosen." Perhaps the original owner of your newly
found Second Edition Big Book transcribed and typed the Chicago pamphlet.
Rick T., Illinois

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of TH
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:11 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Story Source
I recently obtained a few second edition Big Books, and one of them [8th
printing, 1966] had a typed story titled "The Reason You Were Chosen for
This Work." folded up in the pages. It starts, "God, in His wisdom selected
this group of men and women to be purveyors of His goodness."
I am curious as to what the source of this story is. I've been around the
rooms a few twenty-four hours and had not come across it.
Tommy in Baton Rouge.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2487. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Story Source
From: PR_Magoo . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2005 1:01:00 AM

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That should have said "message 251"

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "PR_Magoo" <pr_magoo@y...>
wrote:
> "Why We Were Chosen" .... one of my favorites!
>
> Your question was answered in an older message, from Jim Blair. See
message which contains the:
>
> Address by Judge John T.
> 4th Anniversary of the Chicago Group
> October 5, 1943
>
> Phil

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++++Message 2488. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The upper room
From: Jean Cottel . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2005 10:57:00 PM

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I have a 1945 little book of quotations called "The Pocket Book of Faith"
published by the Upper Room.

> [Original Message]
> From: Doug B. <douglas@aahistory.com>

> I have found a complete run of all of the Upper Room Magazines
> from the first one in APR/MAY/JUN of 1935 (they began when Dr Bob got
sober) to the end 1953...

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++++Message 2489. . . . . . . . . . . . circle and triangle
From: jacqueline belgium . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2005 2:02:00 PM

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I would like to know who decided to use for the first time the circle and
triangle in AA.
Thanks for your help.
Jacqueline - Brussels - Belgium

_________________________________________________________________
Créez gratuitement votre espace perso en ligne avec MSN Spaces !
http://spaces.msn.com/?mkt=fr-be

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++++Message 2490. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: circle and triangle
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/24/2005 5:48:00 PM

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The 1956 General Service Conference authorized the logo. The advisory
action was:

That the trademark symbol of a triangle within a circle, together with
the words "General Service Conference," be restricted for use of
Conference approved literature only.

That the triangle within a circle, without wording, may be used
anywhere by groups for use in banners, placards and similar displays.

_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jacqueline
belgium
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 2:03 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] circle and triangle

I would like to know who decided to use for the first time the circle
and
triangle in AA.
Thanks for your help.
Jacqueline - Brussels - Belgium

_________________________________________________________________
Créez gratuitement votre espace perso en ligne avec MSN Spaces !
http://spaces.msn.com/?mkt=fr-be

_____

Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscrib
e>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2491. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: circle and triangle
From: TH . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2005 9:13:00 AM

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I it was in 1955. At least that is what Bill says p. 307 of As Bill Sees It

I would note that the triangle and circle symbol was not trademarked but
the symbol with the wording was.

Any idea of the source of the triangle and circle? Bill says in ABSI p.
307, "It is perhaps no accident that priests and seers of antiquity
regarded this symbol as a means of warding off spirits of evil."

Tommy in Baton Rouge

At 17:48 6/24/2005 , ArtSheehan wrote:

>The 1956 General Service Conference authorized the logo. The advisory
>action was:
>
>That the trademark symbol of a triangle within a circle, together with
>the words "General Service Conference," be restricted for use of
>Conference approved literature only.
>
>That the triangle within a circle, without wording, may be used
>anywhere by groups for use in banners, placards and similar displays.
>
> _____
>
>From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jacqueline
>belgium
>Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 2:03 PM
>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] circle and triangle
>
>I would like to know who decided to use for the first time the circle
>and
>triangle in AA.
>Thanks for your help.
>Jacqueline - Brussels - Belgium
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Créez gratuitement votre espace perso en ligne avec MSN Spaces !
>http://spaces.msn.com/?mkt=fr-be
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>* To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
>
>* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscrib
>e>
>
>* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2492. . . . . . . . . . . . 25 Millionth Big Book
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2005 9:25:00 AM

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25 Millionth Alcoholics Anonymous 'Big Book'
To be Given in Gratitude to Warden of San Quentin

June 20, 2005 -

(TORONTO, ONTARIO) The 25 millionth copy of the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous will be presented to Jill Brown, warden of San Quentin
prison, at the International Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous which
takes place in Toronto June 31 - July 3. The landmark book will be
presented to Warden Brown by Allen Ault, Class A (nonalcoholic)
trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous, who has been a director of
corrections in three states and is currently Dean of the College of
Justice and Safety at Eastern Kentucky University in the United
States.

The gift of the book is A.A.'s way of expressing gratitude for that
institution's long history of supporting A.A as a resource for
alcoholic inmates. The first A.A. meeting in a prison was held in San
Quentin in 1941. Since that time, hundreds of A.A. groups have sprung
up behind prison walls. Some have started with the help of A.A.
members on the outside, and all with the vital support and cooperation
of corrections personnel.

For the Big Book itself, passing the 25 million sales mark in English
versions alone is something worth noting. It took 36 years to sell the
first million copies. Now A.A. distributes approximately one million
books each year in the English-language edition alone.

It didn't seem like that would be the case in 1939. The new book
Alcoholics Anonymous was featured on a popular radio show by radio
commentator Gabriel Heatter, and three days later, A.A. founders
lugged empty suitcases to their post office box in anticipation of a
deluge of orders only to find two lone inquiries. Often called A.A.'s
"most effective sponsor," the Big Book was launched on a shoestring.
Initially sales lagged, and the young Fellowship found itself saddled
with nearly 5,000 unsold books and large incidental debts. Then, in
March 1941, after an article about A.A. by Jack Alexander appeared in
the Saturday Evening Post, sales soared and a second printing was
ordered at once.

The book provided the name for a small movement that until then had
been known simply as the Alcoholic Foundation, with but 100 members.
Today, Alcoholics Anonymous has an estimated two million members
worldwide with a presence in 180 countries. Additionally, its program
of recovery serves as a model for many other 12 Step Fellowships.

The Big Book itself has opened the way to a life of comfortable
sobriety for thousands of suffering alcoholics who otherwise might not
have found help. It has offered convincing evidence to relatives and
friends that compulsive drinkers can recover; and has furnished
revealing insights to physicians, psychologists, members of the clergy
and other professionals who work with alcoholics.

Previous recipients of milestone copies of the Big Book have included
United States President Richard Nixon (the one millionth), U.S.
Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare Joseph Califano (two
millionth), the widow of Dr. John (Jack) L. Norris, Class A
nonalcoholic trustee and former A.A.W.S. Board Chairman (15 millionth)
and the Al-Anon Family Groups (twenty millionth).

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++++Message 2493. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Articles - Beacon Herald 6/20/05
& Toronto Star 6/21/05
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2005 5:52:00 AM

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AA ALUM SHARES STORY
Stratford Beacon-Herald
Mon 20 Jun 2005
Page: 3
Section: News
Byline: BY PAUL CLUFF, STAFF REPORTER

Mary does a dance every morning when she wakes up.
She can’t wait to start the day because there are new challenges out that
door, she says. She has an infectious energy shared with a loving family.
She works and contributes to her community.
Life is wonderful.
But it wasn’t always that way.
There was a time when Mary (not her real name to protect her privacy) was
living a nightmare. Somewhere, she says, between not wanting to live and not
wanting to die. A crippling disease had taken hold. Alcohol had so consumed
her that she could no longer function.
Often termed “bottoming out,” Mary confided her problem to a friend and
started the road to recovery by signing up for Alcoholics Anonymous.
“I had no idea I suffered from the disease of alcoholism,” Mary, a Huron
County resident, said during an interview. “I just wondered what was wrong
with me.”
“I was sick and tired of living the way I was living -- with the booze.
I didn’t know there was another way. I didn’t feel that the drink was
causing the problem. I was tired of myself and tired of life.”
So, she reached out and went to a meeting.
That first step, taken by millions worldwide, changed her life.
It’s been 15 years since Mary had a drink but she still takes it one day
at
a time. She no longer thinks about having a drink but is well aware that
just one could lead to a dangerous place. Thoughts these days are positive
and optimistic, a far cry from the demons that once haunted her outlook.
70 years
Since its humble beginnings in Akron, Ohio, AA, celebrating its 70th year,
has gone on to help countless people rid themselves of the disease.
Mary’s strong connection to the program has her well aware of the
anniversary and she will bring her optimism for life to the Alcoholics
Anonymous International Convention June 30-July 3 in Toronto.
Held every five years since the first in Cleveland in 1950, it is a chance
for AA members world wide to gain new friendships and share their stories.
“It’s a celebration,” says Mary. AA has a presence in some 180
countries and
80 of those are expected to send members to the convention.
The numbers alone – two million members – speak volumes about the appeal
and
effectiveness of the program.
Mary is just one of those who have allowed the AA’s 12-step program into
their lives. Mary practises those principles on a daily basis. The program
has taught her how to live life without drinking and how to contribute to
society. “I didn’t do reality before.”
Now, the greatest feeling Mary gets is knowing she is a contributing member
of society and she continues to win out on a day-to-day basis.
**********************************************
AA helps many souls take flight
The Toronto Star
Tue 21 Jun 2005
Page: B2
Section: News
Byline: Jim Coyle

Aerodynamically speaking, bumblebees are said to be incapable of flight.
By any reasonable standard, the world conference being held in Toronto on
Canada Day weekend should be equally impossible.
Alcoholics. About 50,000 of them. Folks who couldn’t be trusted to bring
home the pay packet running a multi-million-dollar undertaking. Folks who
could scarcely get themselves to work organizing one of the biggest
conferences in this town’s history.
Folks who once thought only of themselves volunteering to get things ready
for visitors from all over the world.
And doing it all without dues or fees or fundraising campaigns or leaders or
much of an organization at all.
Who could be blamed for saying that, in a logical world, it should never get
off the ground?
Yet there will be alcoholics enough in Toronto to fill the Rogers Centre
until it runneth over (three times, in fact). And, touch wood, there won’t
be a lampshade, impaired charge or bouncer-issued black eye to be seen. For
they will be (or most of them anyway) as sober as the judges who used to
lock them up.
As sober, in fact, as the judges who will certainly be in their number.
Along with butchers, bakers, candlestick makers - and people in any other
line of work you care to name.
The conference, to mark the 70th anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous, will
more or less be a rolling series of AA meetings. In that sense, it might be
one of the larger storytelling festivals Toronto’s ever had. For what an
AA
meeting is, at its core, is the telling of tales.
That’s the way it began June 10, 1935, in Akron, Ohio, when a thirsty
stockbroker named Bill Wilson and a drunken doctor named Bob Smith were put
in touch with each other.
Bill told Bob the story of how he got chronically and almost fatally drunk,
then how he got sober.
What happened that day has happened ever since in AA groups all over the
world the person passing on insight got at least as much benefit as the
listener.
With AA meetings now a staple of prime-time TV, and no cop drama complete
without an officer in wobbly recovery, the how of the program is fairly well
known.
But why it works – even when the best efforts and threats of doctors,
judges, parents, police, wives and others failed – is something that
continues to astonish even the long sober.
Of the two co-founders, Wilson was the theorist and wordsmith, the chief
author of AA’s 12 Steps and associated literature.
Whatever else he had come to know about matters of medicine, psychology and
the spirit – he was by his own estimation a brilliant synthesizer - he
surely understood the power of a story.
He understood that if the essence of addiction is to isolate and separate
the sufferer from the human race, the essence of stories, whether told
between generations, cultures or individuals, is to connect.
“We understand our lives by telling ourselves stories about what happens
to
us,” Susan Cheever wrote in My Name is Bill, a biography of Wilson
published
last year.
Needless to say, what happens to the alcoholic is unlovely to the onlooker
and horrifying beyond imagining to the sufferer.
Alcoholism has been called a disease of perceptions, a disease of
loneliness, a disease of “more,” the family disease.
Alcoholics, too, have been subject to many definitions. They are egomaniacs
with no self-esteem. They have a high threshold for pain and a low threshold
for fear. They are maladjusted to life and in full flight from reality. They
have an allergy of the body – the overpowering craving for alcohol once
some
has been introduced to their body.
They have an obsession of the mind - all other concerns supplanted by
thoughts of the next drink.
They have a spiritual malady. Spiritus contra spiritum, Carl Jung called it.
Spirits against the spirit.
What they also have, Wilson knew, is an acute ear for the sound of someone
who understands, who has known similar suffering.
Tell the person still struggling your story, instructs “the Big Book,”
Alcoholics Anonymous. “If he is alcoholic, he will understand you at
once.”
In the story, they hear truth. In the clear eyes of the teller, they see
something they want. In the listening, they gain the sliver of hope that
they might not be alone, that others who felt and behaved and suffered in
familiar ways have found a program for recovery that might just work for
them, too.
It is really the oldest of wisdom that there is no substitute for
experience. That the teacher will come when the student is ready. That
example is the best – perhaps the only – way to instruct.
By Susan Cheever’s appraisal, the program Wilson and Smith devised
didn’t
work perfectly or all the time, “but it worked often and fairly well,
which
was worlds ahead of anything else that has been thought of to combat
addiction before or since.”
To the millions worldwide who’ve found contented sobriety, that’s cause
for
one world-class party.
And hardly less astonishing than a bumblebee’s flight.

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++++Message 2494. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 25 Millionth Big Book
From: Hugh D. Hyatt . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2005 4:04:00 PM

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> The 25 millionth copy of the Big Book of Alcoholics
> Anonymous will be presented to Jill Brown, warden of San Quentin
> prison, at the International Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous which
> takes place in Toronto June 31 - July 3.

Obviously this should read June 30 - July 3. The error is in the
original press release (at
http://www.aa.org/default/en_release.cfm?newsid=18). I e-mailed the PI
desk at GSO about it.

--
Hugh H.
Bryn Athyn, PA

A room without books is like a body without a soul.
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero

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++++Message 2495. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: circle and triangle
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2005 12:58:00 AM

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Hi Tommy

Good catch.

The first use of two variations of the logos did indeed occur in 1955.
The 1955 International had the logo on a large drape on the stage (a
circle with a black triangle with “AA” inside the triangle in rounded
letters). The 2nd edition Big Book was also released at the
International and it contained different variation of the logo (a
circle and triangle with no fill color with “AA” inside the triangle -
the letters were not rounded). This logo version contained the words
“recovery”, “unity” and “service around the sides.

I found copies of the trademark renewals from the 1980’s on the web
and they show a “first use” designation of February 1, 1955.

Based on the Conference final reports, Conference approval of the
logos occurred in 1956. There is no mention of any discussion or
action on logos or trademarks in the final Conference reports from
1951 thru 1955. This actually makes sense since the Board is a legal
entity and the Conference is not.

The 1956 Conference also authorized, and restricted, a version of the
logo that contained the words “General Service Conference” to
designate Conference-approved literature. It had the black triangle
with “AA” inside the triangle (in the rounded letters version).

There were 4 variations of the circle and triangle logo design that
were registered trademarks (in the 1980s). They included a plain
circle and triangle and the ones described above. There are a number
of other trademarks registered by AA. They are listed in the AA
Service Manual (pg S70) and include: “A.A.”; “Alcoholics Anonymous”;
“The Big Book”; “Box 4-5-9”; “The Grapevine”; “A.A.
Grapevine”; “GV”;
“Box 1980” and “La Vina.”

Use of the logos ended in 1993 and 1994 by Conference advisory action
when AA abandoned them.

The segment cited in As Bill Sees It is derived from, but not
identical to, a portion of pg 139 of AA Comes of Age. Both books go on
to state that “The circle stands for the whole world of AA, and the
triangle stands for AA’s Three Legacies: Recovery, Unity and Service.

Cheers
Arthur

_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TH
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 9:14 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] circle and triangle

I it was in 1955. At least that is what Bill says p. 307 of As Bill
Sees It

I would note that the triangle and circle symbol was not trademarked
but
the symbol with the wording was.

Any idea of the source of the triangle and circle? Bill says in ABSI
p.
307, "It is perhaps no accident that priests and seers of antiquity
regarded this symbol as a means of warding off spirits of evil."

Tommy in Baton Rouge

At 17:48 6/24/2005 , ArtSheehan wrote:

>The 1956 General Service Conference authorized the logo. The advisory
>action was:
>
>That the trademark symbol of a triangle within a circle, together
with
>the words "General Service Conference," be restricted for use of
>Conference approved literature only.
>
>That the triangle within a circle, without wording, may be used
>anywhere by groups for use in banners, placards and similar displays.
>
> _____
>
>From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jacqueline
>belgium
>Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 2:03 PM
>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] circle and triangle
>
>I would like to know who decided to use for the first time the circle
>and
>triangle in AA.
>Thanks for your help.
>Jacqueline - Brussels - Belgium
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Créez gratuitement votre espace perso en ligne avec MSN Spaces !
>http://spaces.msn.com/?mkt=fr-be
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>* To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
>
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>* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2496. . . . . . . . . . . . (no subject)
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2005 2:42:00 PM

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I went to GSO archives 1 week ago and found out that their budget was
slashed
20%.
I also found out that our audio history preservation work was discontinued 1
1/2 years ago. What that means to the fellowship of A.A is that our oral
histories which were donated to our GSO archives are currently
disintegrating
and
may be lost for all time. I have already contacted the delegate for area 59
and
he assured me he would speak with his counterpart in area 60 and get back to
me. The last box 459 mentions a cutback in archives but I do not feel that
the
fellowship is aware of the seriousness of this problem. I plan to write GSO
and let them know that this places our history in great peril. I would
further
suggest that local archives would consider doing this preservation work
themselves since GSO archives is no longer budgeted to do this. Does anyone
else
know about this?

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike and Harry the Wino

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2497. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 25 Millionth Big Book
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2005 4:46:00 AM

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Hi Folks,
This is interesting to me that the warden of San Quentin will be attending
the convention and receiving this book. Clinton Duffy was warden at San
Quentin in AA's early days and really supported the work there. There is a
good discussion of this on page 89 of "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age."
Mel Barger
~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hugh D. Hyatt" <hughhyatt@bluehen.udel.edu>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 25 Millionth Big Book

>> The 25 millionth copy of the Big Book of Alcoholics
>> Anonymous will be presented to Jill Brown, warden of San Quentin
>> prison, at the International Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous which
>> takes place in Toronto June 31 - July 3.
>
> Obviously this should read June 30 - July 3. The error is in the
> original press release (at
> http://www.aa.org/default/en_release.cfm?newsid=18). I e-mailed the PI
> desk at GSO about it.
>
> --
> Hugh H.
> Bryn Athyn, PA
>
> A room without books is like a body without a soul.
> -- Marcus Tullius Cicero
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2498. . . . . . . . . . . . circle and triangle
From: colstonvear . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2005 4:50:00 AM

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Jacqueline from Brussels's question was great and we have had some
interesting responses thus far, but is there anyone out there who has
an inkling as to why it was chosen and by whom?

Why was it thought that we needed a logo? Who sat around and designed
it? What was the process before it hit the 1956 General Service
Conference?

Why was use of the logos ended in 1993 and 1994 by Conference advisory
action? Why did AA abandon them?

Colston
Bristol
UK

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++++Message 2499. . . . . . . . . . . . The Forgotten Steps " Six and Seven"
From: Patricia . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2005 8:49:00 AM

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I have been looking for my copy of the article on the Forgotten
Steps.I can't remember who wrote it for AA and Bill Wilson. I think it
was Fosdick. Can someone help point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Patricia D

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++++Message 2500. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: (no subject)
From: Joe Longo . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2005 11:09:00 AM

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I wasn't aware that there was a problem.

In my travels around the world and the US, I believed
that each local area was responsible for Archives in
their Area or District. I personally know that San
Fernando District in the Burbank area, San Diego, in
Virginia, Desert & Inland Empire in Southern
California and all of Germany Districts and Areas have
their own Archives.

Joe Longo...

--- Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote:

> I went to GSO archives 1 week ago and found out that
> their budget was slashed
> 20%.
> I also found out that our audio history preservation
> work was discontinued 1
> 1/2 years ago. What that means to the fellowship of
> A.A is that our oral
> histories which were donated to our GSO archives are
> currently disintegrating and
> may be lost for all time. I have already contacted
> the delegate for area 59 and
> he assured me he would speak with his counterpart in
> area 60 and get back to
> me. The last box 459 mentions a cutback in archives
> but I do not feel that the
> fellowship is aware of the seriousness of this
> problem. I plan to write GSO
> and let them know that this places our history in
> great peril. I would further
> suggest that local archives would consider doing
> this preservation work
> themselves since GSO archives is no longer budgeted
> to do this. Does anyone else
> know about this?
>
> Yours in Service,
> Shakey Mike and Harry the Wino
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>

____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

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++++Message 2501. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: (no subject)
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2005 11:08:00 AM

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Hi Mike and Harry

Thanks much for escalating this matter to the attention of the group.
The GSO for the US/Canada is facing a financial challenge. They need
the support of the membership to address the ever growing demands of
the essential services they provide - all services not just Archives.

Recently our Southwest Region Trustee, Gary K, was invited by our Area
Delegate to make a report to our Area membership on financial matter
affecting AAWS and Grapevine. I’d strongly recommend asking your Area
Delegate to invite your Regional Trustee to make a similar report to
your Area Assembly and Regional Forum. Factual and complete
information is an essential ingredient to resolving the matter.

Financial support for GSO only comes from two sources: member/group
donations and literature sales. Group and member donations have
historically made up only a minority percentage of the funding. The
price of all book literature (except the Big Book) will be raised by
$1 in July. No one wants to see the price of literature raised. But
the problem can only be solved by the membership (that means each of
us) providing financial support to AAWS and the Grapevine.

Although any member may take issue over a particular expenditure or
priority, overall the GSOs throughout world-wide AA do a remarkable
job with relatively small staffs. They deserve our support. Some ways
we can help are:

Encourage groups in your Area (and your home group) to contribute
directly and regularly to GSO (even if it’s only a few dollars). Small
contributions from many sources positively add up very quickly.

Encourage your home group members to individually participate in the
Birthday Plan (again even if it’s only a few dollars).

Encourage your Area and Districts to donate directly to GSO (it
doesn’t have to be large donations but once more, would help if it
were regular donations - say perhaps by passing the hat at Area
Committee, Area Assembly and District meetings).

Ask your Area to raise the amount contributed to GSO to cover the
Delegate expenses for participation in the General Service Conference
each year.

Periodically purchase a Big Book and 12&12 (or other literature) for a
newcomer or to donate to a District and/or Area service committee
(this will likely also help your Intergroup Central Office if your
group purchases its literature from them).

Obtain a subscription to Box 4-5-9 and the Grapevine/La Vina.

Cheers
Arthur
_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Shakey1aa@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 6:43 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Shakey1aa@aol.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] (no subject)

I went to GSO archives 1 week ago and found out that their budget was
slashed
20%.
I also found out that our audio history preservation work was
discontinued 1
1/2 years ago. What that means to the fellowship of A.A is that our
oral
histories which were donated to our GSO archives are currently
disintegrating and
may be lost for all time. I have already contacted the delegate for
area 59 and
he assured me he would speak with his counterpart in area 60 and get
back to
me. The last box 459 mentions a cutback in archives but I do not feel
that the
fellowship is aware of the seriousness of this problem. I plan to
write GSO
and let them know that this places our history in great peril. I would
further
suggest that local archives would consider doing this preservation
work
themselves since GSO archives is no longer budgeted to do this. Does
anyone else
know about this?

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike and Harry the Wino

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2502. . . . . . . . . . . . who were these guys?
From: oicuradry12 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2005 11:48:00 PM

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good day historians !

me and my group have 4 questions which has turned us into a "BAFFELED
LOT". just who were the guys mentioned in
1) the 12&12, pg.141," one the A.A. calender it was year 2", " a new comer
appeared at one of these groups"

2) the 12&12, pg. 143, "we shall call him ED."

3) the 12&12, pg. 151, " But he is one tough Irishman"

and finally in the big book, " The doctors' opinon" 4th eddition, pg XXXI,
what was the name of the "physician prominent in NewYork" that brought Fitz
M. in to see the good doctor Silky?

I am truly grateful for whatever knowlege you may share.
forever in your service
rockbottom russ-chicago drunkl

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++++Message 2503. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Forgotten Steps " Six and
Seven"
From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2005 6:59:00 PM

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It is a Hazelden offering and may be found there. I also heard it was out of
print.
Diz T.
Tallahassee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia" <pdixonrae@yahoo.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 9:49 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Forgotten Steps " Six and Seven"

> I have been looking for my copy of the article on the Forgotten
> Steps.I can't remember who wrote it for AA and Bill Wilson. I think it
> was Fosdick. Can someone help point me in the right direction.
> Thanks
> Patricia D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2504. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 25 Millionth Big Book
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2005 7:36:00 AM

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Jimmy B,and other A.A's started taking regular meetings to the Phila, Pa.
prison called the House of Correction at Holmesburg 2 years before San
Quentin.
They were continuous till the prison closed and the meetings moved to other
prisons. Jack D, an inmate, came out of Holmesburg, then PGH(Phila General
Hospital) and was active in service and stayed sober till he died. He is
listed
(by
full name and address) in our Phila meeting list. Our first regular meeting
was September 1940. When the prison closed the Prison Committee was given a
key
to one of the cells there and is on display in the Southeastern Pennsylvania
Intergroup Office in Phila, Pa. We took regular meeting to PGH starting
April
1940 till it closed. The Archives in Philadelphia show the other
accomplishments of not only "Jimmy of Philadelphia" but also the work of
early
A.A's and
non A.A's in making our fellowship what it is today.

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike

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++++Message 2505. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: who were these guys?
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2005 7:00:00 AM

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ed was jimmy b

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2506. . . . . . . . . . . . Circle & Triangle
From: mymailbox1998 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2005 8:43:00 PM

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Hello group,

For more information about the Circle & Triangle look at post #205.
There is a copy of a great Box 459 article on this subject. Rick T.
from Area 20 also posted a very good one, but I couldn't find his in
our previous post. Maybe he will post it again or if he gives me
permission I can post it for him.

AAHISTORYLOVERS/Yahoo Groups has a search feature. As a suggestion to
old and new members to the group, if you are curious about some topic
in AA History try searching previous post to see if your question might
have been already answered or even ask for some additional information
if you find something in the group's archives of previous messages.

Charles from California.

PS I will be a volunteer in Toronto at the GSO Archives booth Saturday
morning. Stop by and say "HI"

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++++Message 2507. . . . . . . . . . . . Chet Morgan
From: Lance . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2005 11:06:00 PM

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He is mentioned in Dr. Bob & the Good Oldtimers....pg 256.
I'd love to know more about him. A friend of mine is a descendent of
Chets. Thanks so much!
HUGS!!! Lance from colorful Colorado!

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++++Message 2508. . . . . . . . . . . . (No subject)
From: tanya becker . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/29/2005 9:10:00 PM

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Dear Group, I am trying to find information regarding "moral
psychology" from the Doctor's Opinion. I need to referance from conferance
approved literature. Thank You, Tanya { from Detroit}

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

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++++Message 2509. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: (unknown)
From: kyyank@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2005 4:53:00 AM

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re: "moral psychology" , Doctors Opinion, et al. use The Little Doctor
Who Loved Drunks, the biography of William Duncan Silkworth by Dale Mitchel,
Hazelden Publishing. It contains many references of conference approved
literarture regarding same.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2510. . . . . . . . . . . . Richard K. Book
From: paul moczulewski . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2005 6:05:00 AM

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Good morning,

Can anyone tell me how I might purchase this book or does anyone have any
information on any website or articles on this book.

So You Think Drunks Can’t Be Cured?, The First Forty, Separating Fact From
Fiction. By Richard K.

Thanks in advance.

Have an awesome day!

Paul

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2511. . . . . . . . . . . . READING PA
From: jeepster0830 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/30/2005 8:56:00 PM

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HELLO ,
TO WHO MAYBE ABLE TO HELP
The Archives Committee in the Reading Pa / Berks County Pa Intergroup
IS VERY small only has limited information/referances and now asked to
particpate in Reading Area AA Cconvention July 23.

maybe some extra information/ other material is available about this
area, Dick Caron, George L.,etc.

If anyone could add or oint in some direction would be greatly
appreciate.

thank you
bob c.

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++++Message 2512. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: READING PA
From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/1/2005 3:11:00 PM

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Bob C:

I have written an article about sobriety literature that talks some
about Dick Caron and his "Chit Chat" newsletter. Please make use of
anything you find there that is of interest. You can find the article
under my name at

http://historyofalcoholanddrugs.typepad.com/alcohol_and_drugs_history/SHADV1
9.ht\

ml [10]

Trysh Travis

jeepster0830 wrote:

> HELLO ,
> TO WHO MAYBE ABLE TO HELP
> The Archives Committee in the Reading Pa / Berks County Pa Intergroup
> IS VERY small only has limited information/referances and now asked to
> particpate in Reading Area AA Cconvention July 23.
>
> maybe some extra information/ other material is available about this
> area, Dick Caron, George L.,etc.
>
> If anyone could add or oint in some direction would be greatly
> appreciate.
>
> thank you
> bob c.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2513. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Richard K. Book
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2005 12:41:00 PM

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http://www.thereisasolution.org.uk/readings/devil_and_Bill.htm

This is a link to an article written by Richard K. (no relation)
which mentiones the book/publisher etc.

Mitchell K.
>
>
>
> Good morning,
>
> Can anyone tell me how I might purchase this book or does anyone
have any information on any website or articles on this book.
>
> So You Think Drunks Can't Be Cured?, The First Forty, Separating
Fact From Fiction. By Richard K.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Have an awesome day!
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2514. . . . . . . . . . . . 12 and 12 payment/royalties
From: JNP in Maine . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2005 6:36:00 PM

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DOES ANYONE HAVE THE CORRECT INFORMATION WITH REGARD TO THE FOLLOWING;

1.DID BILL W RECIEVE A STIPEND FOR THE WRITING AND PUBLISHING OF THE 12
STEPS
AND 12 TRADITIONS. iF SO BY WHOM AND HOW MUCH.
2. WAS THERE AND AGREEMENT TO PAY BILL W. ROYALTIES FOR HIS LIFETIME AND WAS
THERE AN ARRANGEMENT TO CONTINUE THEM AS DIRECTED BY HIS LAST WILL AND
TESTAMENT.
3.IF THE ROYALTIES WERE TO BE CONTINUED AFTER HIS DEATH WHO WERE THEY PAID
TO.
4.WHO WAS THE PERSON NAMED IN HIS WILL TO RECIEVE THEM IF DIFFERENT FROM THE
PERSON IN #3 ABOVE.

THANKS FOR THE HELP. LOOK FORWARD TO THE ANSWERS.

---------------------------------
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++++Message 2515. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant July dates in AA History
From: William Cox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2005 6:54:00 PM

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I always enjoyed this when Nancy Olson was still with us, What a wonderful
moderater she was. I was Blessed to been able to corrispond with her. I will
make an attempt to carry this on in her honor.
Please feel free to e mail me with any additons.

Warm Regards,
BillyC
Annapolis, Maryland

8700 attend 25th Anniversary of AA in Long Beach, CA - July 1-3, 1960

56,000 attend 60th Anniversary of AA in San Diego. What a party! - June
29-July
2, 1995

Father Ed Dowling dies - July 2, 1960

Best of Bill and Pocket-Sized 12 and 12 1st sold - July 2, 1965

1st La Vigne, Canadian Grapevine Published - July 2, 1965

50 years of AA celebrated in Canada - July 2, 1993

Bill W turns "the fellowship over to the fellowship" at 4:00 PM, 5000 attend
20th Anniversary at our St Louis Convention - July 2-3, 1955

10,000 attend 30th Anniversary of AA in Toronto.
There we came to own our Responsibility Declaration - July 2-4, 1965

1st AA meeting started in Flatbush, NY - July 4, 1939

10,900 attend 35th Anniversary of AA in Miami.
Bill W gave his last talk to AA - July 3-5, 1970

22,500 attend 45th Anniversaryof AA in New Orleans
First true marathon meeting was held here - July 3-6, 1980

19,800 attend 40th Anniversary of AA in Denver
Worlds largest coffee server serves 1/2 million cups a day - July 4-6, 1975

AA gives Ruth Hock 5,000,000th Big Book
during 50th AA Anniversary in Montreal, Canada - July 5, 1985

AA gives Nell Wing 10,000,000th Big Book
during 55th AA Anniversary in Seattle, WA - July 5, 1990

Gay AA's have own program at 40th AA Anniversary in New Orleans - July 3-6,
1980

45,000 attend 50th Anniversary of AA in Montreal.
House of Seagrams flew their flags at half mast for 3 days - July 5-7, 1985

Bill attends 1st Summer Session at School of Alcohol Studies at Yale
University
- July 7, 1940

48,000 attend 55th Anniversary of AA in Seattle. 75 countries were
represented
as the former Soviet Unions members attended for the first time - July 5-8,
1990

1st AA Group formed in Dayton, Ohio - July 8, 1940

Texas newspaper publishes anonymous letter
from founding member of Texas AA Group - July 10, 1941

Blythewood Sanitarium Dr Harry Tiebout gives Big Book
to Marty M. who promptly throws it back at him - July 14, 1939

Dr. Ernest Kurtz publishes NOT-GOD, History of AA - July 14, 1979

Frank Amos AA Trustee dies - July 16, 1965

Malcolm "Bud" A., July 17, 1969 ... died sober October 16, 2001

First AA group formed in Seattle, Washington - July 20, 1941

Frog L. joins the big meeting in the sky, 23 years sober - July 21, 2000

Willian Duncan Silkworth born in Brooklyn, NY - July 22, 1877

Marty M. early AA woman and founder of NCADD dies - July 22, 1980

Philly AA's send 10% of kitty to Alcoholic Foundation, sets precedent - July
23,
1940

Esther C., passed Jan 15, 2005, sober since July 23, 1943.

New Haven Register CT reports arrival of AA's to study with E.M.Jellinek -
July
23, 1943

L.A. press reports formation of all-Mexican AA Group - July 24, 1943

1st AA Convention celebrates 15th anniversary of AA in Cleveland - July
28-30,
1950

Rollie H dies sober in Washington DC - July 31, 1972

---------------------------------
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++++Message 2516. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 12 and 12 payment/royalties
From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2005 10:46:00 AM

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these are all covered in "Pass it on" or "My Name is Bill"

you can order it from AA or Hazelden.

1. Bill recieved money from royalties fo the Big Book, yes.

2. yes

3. Lois and a small amount to a woman alleged to be his mistress.

4. n/a

Rob W
Baltimore

>>> jopet34@yahoo.com 7/3/2005 7:36 PM >>>
DOES ANYONE HAVE THE CORRECT INFORMATION WITH REGARD TO THE FOLLOWING;

1.DID BILL W RECIEVE A STIPEND FOR THE WRITING AND PUBLISHING OF THE 12
STEPS
AND 12 TRADITIONS. iF SO BY WHOM AND HOW MUCH.
2. WAS THERE AND AGREEMENT TO PAY BILL W. ROYALTIES FOR HIS LIFETIME AND WAS
THERE AN ARRANGEMENT TO CONTINUE THEM AS DIRECTED BY HIS LAST WILL AND
TESTAMENT.
3.IF THE ROYALTIES WERE TO BE CONTINUED AFTER HIS DEATH WHO WERE THEY PAID
TO.
4.WHO WAS THE PERSON NAMED IN HIS WILL TO RECIEVE THEM IF DIFFERENT FROM THE
PERSON IN #3 ABOVE.

THANKS FOR THE HELP. LOOK FORWARD TO THE ANSWERS.

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2517. . . . . . . . . . . . Harper''s Printing of A.A. Comes of
Age ??????
From: liverhelper . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2005 10:23:00 PM

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First of all, HELLO TO ALL !!!
...Do Thank You In Advance For Your Assistance.
...Have been a "lurker" for some time, seems like a truly fine site!
...My Question Is: HOW MANY COPIES OF A.A.C.O.A DID HARPER'S
PUBLISH? ...and any other information on this would be more than
appreciated.

I just obtained a "mint with dust jacket" of this and it got me to
wondering. I believe I read somewhere that Harper's published about
23,000 or more copies of "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" and also
read (somewhere) that they printed a smaller percentage that that of
A.A.C.O.A.. ???????
...All the Best and Thank You Again for Your Time and Works.......

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++++Message 2519. . . . . . . . . . . . Royalty Info (resubmitted and edited
for plain text)
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2005 12:30:00 PM

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This is an edited and expanded version (in plain text) of a previous
submission. Hopefully this copy is more readable and presentable.

SOURCE REFERENCES:

12&12 Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
AABB Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book
ACOA AA Comes of Age
ABSI As Bill Sees It
AGAA The Akron Genesis of AA
BW-RT Bill W by Robert Thompson
BW-FH Bill W by Francis Hartigan
DBGO Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers
GB Getting Better Inside AA
GTBT Grateful to Have Been There
GSC-FR General Service Conference - Final Report (by year)
GSO General Service Office
LOH The Language of the Heart
LR Lois Remembers
NG Not God
PIO Pass It On
SM AA Service Manual
WPR Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery
www Internet Sources

Note: Consumer Price Index (CPI) conversion factors are used to
convert past dollar amounts to 2003 values. The values (shown as "$nnn
today") are the approximate dollars needed today to equal the
purchasing power of the values converted. CPI conversion data are from
Robert C Sahr, Political Science Dept, OR State U, Corvalis
(www.orst.edu)

Both Bill W and Dr Bob received royalties from Big Book sales. Bill
received royalties from 3 other books (12&12, AA Comes of Age and As
Bill Sees It). The table below shows units book sales (in 1,000 = k)
and royalty dollars. Data are cumulative (e.g. unit sales of the Big
Book [AABB]from 1939-1980 were 2.712k - 2.7 million). The last column
shows royalty dollars adjusted by CPI factors to show their value in
year 2003 dollars (2003-$).

I------------------------------------------I-----------------------I
I Cumulative Unit Sales I Cumulative Royalties I
I------------------------------------------I-----------------------I
I Yr AABB 12&12 ACOA ABSI Total I Royalty CPI 2003-$ I
I------------------------------------------I-----------------------I
I 1952 258k 258K I 43k 0.144 317k I
I 1960 444k 85k 26k 556k I 209k 0.161 1,407k I
I 1970 814k 245k 70k 61k 1,190k I 582k 0.211 3,450k I
I 1980 2,712k 1,419k 224k 324k 4,679k I 2,947k 0.448 10,609k I
I 1990 10,764k 6,269k 469k 1,146k 18,650k I 10,979k 0.711 23,979k I
I 2000 20,464k 10,793k 616k 1,834k 33,706k I 18,087k 0.936 32,739k I
I------------------------------------------I-----------------------I

Following is a timeline of the evolution of the royalty agreements.

1938 - Feb, Willard Richardson asked Frank Amos to visit Akron, OH and
make a report on the fledgling Fellowship. Amos made a very favorable
report to Richardson who presented it to John D Rockefeller Jr. urging
a donation of $50,000 ($650,000 today). (BW-FH 105-106 says $10,000,
$5,000 a year for 2 years, in LOH 61 Bill W says $30,000). (SM S3,
BW-RT 246, LR 197, DBGO 128-135, BW-FH 105-106, PIO 185-187, LOH 143,
AGAA 217, 258) Rockefeller refused to make the donation but provided
$5,000 ($65,000 today) to be held in a fund in the Riverside Church
treasury. Much of the fund was used to pay off Dr Bob's mortgage and
provide Bill and Bob with $30 a week ($390 today) as long as the fund
lasted. (BW-RT 247, ACOA 149-151, DBGO 135, PIO 187-188)

Sep, board Trustee Frank Amos arranged a meeting between Bill W and
Eugene Exman (Religious Editor of Harper Brothers publishers). Exman
offered Bill a $1,500 advance ($19,400 today) on the rights to the
book. The Alcoholic Foundation Board urged acceptance of the offer.
Instead, Hank P and Bill formed Works Publishing Co. and sold stock at
$25 par value ($325 today). 600 shares were issued: Hank and Bill
received 200 shares each, 200 shares were sold to others. Later, 30
shares of preferred stock, at $100 par value ($1,300 today) were sold
as well. To mollify the board, it was decided that the author's
royalty (which would ordinarily be Bill's) could go to the Alcoholic
Foundation. (LR 197, BW-FH 116-119, SM S6, PIO 193-195, ACOA 157, 188)

1939 - Apr, 4,730 copies of the 1st Ed of "Alcoholics Anonymous" were
published at a selling price of $3.50 ($46 today). The printer, Edward
Blackwell of Cornwall Press, was told to use the thickest paper in his
shop. The large, bulky volume became known as the "Big Book." The idea
was to convince the alcoholic he was getting his money's worth. (ACOA
viii, 170, NG 76, PIO 204-205, GB 59) The book had 8 roman and 400
Arabic numbered pages. The Doctor's Opinion started as page 1 and the
basic text ended at page 174.

Feb 8, John D Rockefeller Jr. held a dinner for AA at the Union League
Club. 75 out of 400 invited guests attended. Nelson Rockefeller hosted
the dinner in the absence of his ill father. The dinner produced much
favorable publicity for AA. It also raised $2,200 ($29,000 today) from
the attendees ($1,000 from Rockefeller). Rockefeller and the dinner
guests continued to provide about $3,000 a year ($34,000 today) up to
1945 when they were asked to stop contributing. The Alcoholic
Foundation received the donations and income from sales of the Big
Book. (LR 197, BW-RT 264-267, ACOA viii, 182-187, NG 92-94, BW-FH
109-112, PIO 232-235).

1940 - May 22, Works Publishing Co was incorporated. Bill W and Hank P
gave up their stock with the stipulation that Dr Bob and Anne would
receive 10% royalties on the Big Book for life. Hank was persuaded to
relinquish his shares in exchange for a $200 payment ($2,600 today)
for office furniture he claimed belonged to him. (ACOA 189-190, LR
199, BW-FH 119, SM 11, PIO 235-236, GTBT 92)

1941 - With the possibility that he might be recalled to active duty
in the Army, Bill suggested, based on his authorship of the Big Book
that he be granted a royalty on book sales, as a means of providing
income for Lois. Bill was granted a 10% royalty and this, with one
exception, became his sole source of income. The exception occurred
sometime in the mid-1940's where Bill's income averaged $1,700
($17,300 today) over 7 years. The board made a grant to Bill of $1,500
for each of the 7 years for a total of $10,500 ($107,100 today) out of
which Bill purchased his Bedford Hills house. (1951 GSC-FR 13)

1942 - Board Trustee A LeRoy Chipman asked John D Rockefeller Jr. and
his 1940 dinner guests for $8,500 ($95,000 today) to buy back the
remaining outstanding shares of Works Publishing Inc. stock.
Rockefeller lent $4,000, his son Nelson $500 and the other dinner
guests $4,000. Rockefeller's custom was to forgive $1 of debt for each
$1 repaid. The Rockefeller and dinner guest loans were repaid by 1945
out of Big Book income. (AACOA 189, BW-FH 110-111, SM S7, LOH 148,
ACOA says $8,000)

Oct, Clarence S stirred up a controversy in Cleveland after
discovering that Dr Bob and Bill W were receiving royalties from Big
Book sales. (DBGO 267-269, BW-FH 153-154, ACOA 193-194) Bill and Dr
Bob re-examined the problem of their financial status and concluded
that royalties from the Big Book seemed to be the only answer to the
problem. Bill sought counsel from Father Ed Dowling who suggested that
Bill and Bob could not accept money for 12th Step work, but should
accept royalties as compensation for special services. (ACOA 194-195,
PIO 322-324)

1945 - The Alcoholic Foundation wrote to John D Rockefeller Jr. and
the 1940 dinner guests that AA no longer needed their financial help.
Big Book royalties could look after Dr Bob and Bill W and Group
contributions could pay the general office expenses. This ended all
"outside contributions" to AA. (ACOA 203-204)

1947 - Aug, in his Grapevine Traditions essay titled Last Seven Years
Have Made AA Self-Supporting, Bill W wrote "Two years ago the trustees
set aside, out of AA book funds, a sum which enabled my wife and me to
pay off the mortgage on our home and make some needed improvements.
The Foundation also granted Dr Bob and me each a royalty of 10% on the
book Alcoholics Anonymous, our only income from AA sources. We are
both very comfortable and deeply grateful." (LOH 62-66)

1951 - Apr 20-22, the 1st GSC. It recommended that in future years, AA
textbook literature should have Conference approval. The Trustees of
the Alcoholic Foundation, following Dr Bob's death, voted to increase
Bill's Big Book royalty from 10% to 15% and have the author's royalty
apply to other books that Bill would write in the future. Bill
insisted that this increase be submitted to the General Service
Conference and the Conference approved the Trustee's motion
unanimously. The Conference also approved unanimously a motion
recommending that steps be taken to insure that Bill and Lois receive
book royalties so long as either one shall live. (1951 GSC-FR 12)

1952 - Apr, the 2nd GSC in NYC. The Panel 2 (38 added delegates)
joined with the Panel 1 Delegates to conduct the first Conference of
all Delegates attending. Based on a 1951 advisory action, the
Alcoholic Foundation Board formed a special committee on literature
and submitted a report to the 1952 Conference recommending literature
items that should be retained and future literature items that would
be needed. Bill W also made a presentation of the literature projects
he was engaged in. The Conference unanimously approved the Board
proposals and Bill's literature projects. Bill's projects led to
development of 6 Conference-approved books:

1 3rd Legacy Manual pub 1951 (renamed The AA Service Manual in 1969)
2 12 Steps and 12 Traditions pub 1953
3 The 2nd edition Big Book pub 1955
4 AA Comes of Age published in 1957
5 12 Concepts for World Service pub 1962
6 The AA way of Life pub 1966 (renamed As Bill Sees It in 1975)

The actions of the Conference retroactively approved the Big Book and
several pamphlets.

1953 - Jun, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions was published in 2
editions: one for $2.25 ($15.50 today) for distribution through AA
groups, and a $2.75 ($19 today) edition distributed through Harper and
Brothers for sale in commercial bookstores. (ACOA ix, 219, PIO
354-356)

1955 - Jun 26-29 and Jul 3, held in St Louis, MO. The 5th GSC
recommended that the retail price of the new 2nd Ed Big Book be set at
$4.50 ($30 today) the price to AA groups at $4.00 ($27.50 today) and
to earmark 50 cents for the reserve fund. (Fl Act)

Jul 1-3, 20th anniversary and 2nd Int'l Convention at St Lois, MO.
Theme: Coming of Age. (BW-RT 311, ACOA viii, GTBT 42-51, NG 131, SM
S2) The 2nd Ed. Big Book was published. In his talk to the
Convention, Bill thanked the attendees for purchasing Big Books
because the royalties from it had provided him and Lois with a home
where they had seen more than 3,000 AA members over the years. (ACOA
220, PIO 354, 357)

1957 - Oct, AA Comes of Age was published.

1958 - Apr, the 8th GSC approved the action of the GSB in reassigning
to Bill royalty rights in his 3 books (Alcoholics Anonymous, Twelve
Steps and Twelve Traditions and Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age) and
in books he may write in the future, for the duration of the
copyrights involved. It further recommended that a paperback edition
of the Big Book not be published.

1961 - Apr 19-23, the 9th GSC recommended that no action be taken by
the 1961 GSC on a proposal for a paperback edition of the Big Book.
The following motion was adopted unanimously: the GSC recognizes that
publication of cheap editions of AA books would probably reduce the
income to World Services and Bill W's personal income. This GSC
unanimously suggests the following to the Trustees: To add a rider to
Bill's royalty contract to the effect that, if cheaper books are ever
published, Bill's royalties be increased by an amount sufficient to
keep the royalty income at the same average level it had been for the
5 years before the cheaper books were published; (further that) as
time goes on, if inflation erodes the purchasing power of this income,
the Trustees will adjust the royalties to produce the same approximate
purchasing power; this to be effective during the lifetime of Bill and
Lois and Bill's legatees. (PIO 393).

1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of
his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W. The
agreement provided Bill and Lois with a comfortable living on annual
incomes between $30,000 to $40,000 during the 1960's ($175,000 to
$230,000 today). At the time of Bill's death (1971) it was around
$56,000 ($250,000 today). In the 1970's, royalties surged
significantly and it made Lois W quite rich. (PIO 393, BW-FH 192-193,
GB 69-70, WPR 72) She was prevented from returning any of the funds by
the 7th Tradition.

1964 - Apr 21-26. The 14th GSC recommended that an agreement between
Bill W, co-founder and AAWS, Inc. covering royalties derived from
Bill's writings be approved. Under the terms of the contract, a
royalty of 15% is paid to Bill, except that no royalties are paid on
"overseas editions." Royalties are to be paid to Bill and Lois, his
wife, during their lifetimes; following the deaths of Bill and Lois,
royalties revert in shares of royalties to living heirs. These shares
revert to AAWS upon the death of beneficiaries. Not more than 20% may
be bequeathed to any heir under the age of 40 years as of the date of
the agreement between Bill and AAWS (Apr 29, 1963). The contract
provides protection of royalties against "cheap books" and protection
of AAWS and Bill against fluctuations in general economic conditions.
AAWS retains the right of "first refusal" on any future literary works
of Bill's.

1967 - The AA Way of Life (retitled in 1975 to As Bill Sees It) was
published. In Apr, the copyright to the 1st Ed. Big Book expired and
was not renewed. The oversight was not discovered by AAWS until 1985.
(NG 299)

1971 - Jan 24, Bill W, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, 36 years
sober, died (of emphysema, sometimes described as heart failure) at
Miami Beach, FL. It was his and Lois' 53rd wedding anniversary. (ACOA
xi, BW-FH 5) At this point, royalties transferred to his wife Lois
(and Helen W for few years).

1973 - Apr, distribution of the Big Book passed the one-million mark.
The millionth copy was presented to President Richard Nixon in the
Whitehouse. (NG 267, BW-FH 113)

1976 - Publication of the 3rd Ed. Big Book. (ACOA xi)
1978 - Big Book distribution passed the 2 million mark. (ACOA xi)
1981 - Big Book distribution passed the 3 million mark. (ACOA xi)
1983 - Big Book distribution passed the 4 million mark. (NG 268)

1985 - AAWS discovered that the copyrights to the 1st and 2nd Ed Big
Book had expired. The copyright on the 1st Ed lapsed in 1967. The
copyright on new material in the 2nd Ed lapsed in 1983. Both AAWS and
the Wilson estate shared responsibility for copyright renewal. (NG
299, www) Big Book distribution passed the 5 million mark. (NG 268)
Technically, royalties should have expired on the Big Book since
expiration of the US copyright was one of the agreement conditions
specified for discontinuing Big Book royalties. (www)

1986 - Nov, first paperback edition Big Book published. (NG 301)
1987 - Big Book distribution passed the 6 million mark. (NG 268)

1988 - Oct 5, Lois W (age 97) co-founder of Al-Anon Family Groups,
died. (ACOA xi) Royalties passed to her surviving designated heirs: Dr
Leonard Strong husband of Bill's sister Dorothy, a niece and nephew,
Muriel Strong Morley and Leonard V Strong III, and sisters-in-law
Laura and Florence Burnham. Also listed were Nell Wing, Lois' cousins
Carol Lou Burnham, Ann Burhan Smith, Ann Walker, Dixon Walker and Kate
Knap plus Bill's cousins Jean Kalkoff and Barbara Palazari. 50% was
bequeathed to the Stepping Stones Foundation (to terminate on the
later of August 31, 1997 or 10 years after Lois' death)(www).

1990 - Jul, AA's 55th anniversary and 9th Int'l Convention, Seattle,
WA. Nell Wing was presented the 10 millionth copy of the Big Book.
(PIO 206 says 10 millionth copy printed Mar 1991)

2001 - Apr 22-28,. The 51st GSC recommended that the 4th Ed Big Book
be approved. Nov 1, 4th Ed published - it contained 24 new personal
stories. (GSO) Big Book distribution passed the 22 million mark.

2002 Distribution of the Big Book was reported as: 1st Ed 300,000
copies, 2nd Ed 1,150,000 copies, 3rd Ed 19.550.000 copies and 4th Ed
1, 225,000 copies (2002 GSC-FR 15)

2004 Jan, Big Book distribution passed the 22 million mark. (GSO)
2004 Jan, Big Book distribution passed the 25 million mark. (GSO)

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++++Message 2520. . . . . . . . . . . . A Question about the Principles
Behind each of the Steps of A.A.
From: ricky151530 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2005 12:19:00 PM

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Dear AA History Lovers, first of all thanks so much for being here.
This yahoo group has really opened my eyes to the history of A.A. I
would like to know where the Principles came from? When where they
first writen,and by whom? I have googled it and can't seem to find
information on the way the principles came about. For example... The
principle behind step one is Honesty, for step two its Faith, and so
on.
Thanks for any information that can be given.
Richard

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++++Message 2521. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A Question about the Principles
Behind each of the Steps of A.A.
From: Arthur Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2005 12:43:00 AM

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Hi Richard

First an appeal to AAHL members (especially newer members) - prior to
posting a
question, please first try using the search function in the message archive
in
yahoogroups on-line.

The notion of a single word descriptor as a "principle" behind each Step is
bogus. Please see message 1802 in the AAHL archives.

AAHL members previously posted a question listing a set of single word
"principles" associated with each Step. Another member then sent in a list
containing a set of single word "gifts" that derived from working each Step.
Each of these lists came from cards purchased from vendors selling drunk
junk at
AA events. My comments on the so-called "principles" and "gifts are below.

Cheers
Arthur

From: "Arthur Sheehan"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/pos
t?po\

stID=55l7GyVwP3CbGReciNhGK9-oPzhi--X2wFa15eInRF_5b1MLswM9dCfjDzuhgBMV80FDqhS
Ak0H\

28Q [11]>>
Date: Tue May 11, 2004 12:25 pm
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Principles Meditation Card

Hi

In comparing the so-called "principles" and "gifts" cards, it seems fairly
self-evident that both represent little more than the creative exercises of
individual imagination. Also, the imagination can go in many well-intended,
but
far different, directions. It is easy to go from "keep it simple" into a
realm
that can be just a bit too simplistic.

It's also interesting to note that the "principles" card was purchased
from a "vendor" yet is being associated with an "AA function." I'd sure like
to
see the members who put together so-called "AA functions" eliminate the
participation of those who sell tapes, trinkets and t-shirts. Words printed
on a
card, and sold by a vendor, are not endowed with any special or extra
insight,
authority, validity, accuracy or historical relevance. The so-called
"principles" and "gifts" cards, do little more than denote the semantic
preferences of the those who did the word association.

I've seen a number of variations on this theme (in the form of cards, wall
charts, etc.) trying to reduce the Steps to single words and asserting that
the
word represents the "principle" embodied in the Step. I just don't see how
this
rises to the level of an adequate description.

Much can be gained, and gleaned, from the Steps (and Traditions and
Concepts) both in understanding and results, when each of them is viewed as
a
whole instructive sentence. Each whole instructive sentence can then be
viewed
as a "principle" (i.e. a rule of personal conduct) that we try to practice
in
all our affairs as a means of developing a spiritual condition that offers a
daily reprieve from alcohol. The resultant God-given gift is something
called
"sobriety" (freedom from alcohol).

I'm always amazed at the energy that goes into reading things into AA's
spiritual principles with perhaps far too much emphasis on cleverness than
clarity. It is often done at the expense of missing what is written there in
rather plain language. One of our principal principles (rule #62) is to try
to
carry a message - not creatively modify it.

Arthur

Cheers
Arthur
----- Original Message -----
From: ricky151530<mailto:r_myers9848@sbcglobal.net>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:19 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] A Question about the Principles Behind each of
the
Steps of A.A.

Dear AA History Lovers, first of all thanks so much for being here.
This yahoo group has really opened my eyes to the history of A.A. I
would like to know where the Principles came from? When where they
first writen,and by whom? I have googled it and can't seem to find
information on the way the principles came about. For example... The
principle behind step one is Honesty, for step two its Faith, and so
on.
Thanks for any information that can be given.
Richard

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2522. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A Question about the Principles
Behind each of the Steps of A.A.
From: Dick . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2005 10:30:00 AM

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The Forword to the 12 & 12 states:
"A.A.'s Twelve Steps are a group of principles, spiritual in their
nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession
to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole".

I believe the Traditions and Concepts also are principles in and of
themselves. As far as I can tell the assignment of a "principle" to
each step has been done by individuals in the fellowship and there are
a number of different lists of principles.

In the spirit of recovery, Dick.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricky151530"
<r_myers9848@s...> wrote:
>
> Dear AA History Lovers, first of all thanks so much for being here.
> This yahoo group has really opened my eyes to the history of A.A. I
> would like to know where the Principles came from? When where they
> first writen,and by whom? I have googled it and can't seem to find
> information on the way the principles came about. For example... The
> principle behind step one is Honesty, for step two its Faith, and so
> on.
> Thanks for any information that can be given.
> Richard

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++++Message 2523. . . . . . . . . . . . Anyone know the total numbers for
the International Convention?
From: brian thompson . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2005 11:30:00 PM

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Hello All,
Does anyone know the Numbers for the
International Convention that was in Toronto? Like
total registered and how many countries reprsented ?
I was there but never got any totals.
Brian in IL-AZ

____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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++++Message 2524. . . . . . . . . . . . St. Louis Gambler & the Railroad Man
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2005 11:01:00 PM

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New book on A.A. history: Glenn C., "The St. Louis Gambler & the Railroad
Man."

Vol. 2 of "Lives and Teachings of the A.A. Old Timers," June 2005, ISBN
0-595-34878-5, xvi + 308 pp. The story of how A.A. began and spread through
the
St. Joseph river valley.

See http://hindsfoot.org and http://hindsfoot.org/kstl1.html for more
information on the book.

This volume talks about the lives and teaching of two major early black A.A.
leaders -- Brownie the St. Louis gambler and Goshen Bill -- as well as Ellen
L.,
an early woman A.A. member who devoted herself to helping women alcoholics,
and
Ed P., who was a conductor on the New York Central passenger train portrayed
on
the front cover.

Volume 1 covered the 1940's, while Volume 2 begins in 1950.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2525. . . . . . . . . . . . bothersome trivial questions
From: xxpmds . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2005 1:06:00 PM

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I've been a sober member of AA for more than 21 years, just joined
this group and there are a few things I have always wondered about
and I'm hoping someone can help me out. Parenthetically, Earle Marsh
("Physician Heal Thyself") was my sponsor for 19 years so if any of
you have any questions about him I'll try to answer them.

1. The signs on many of our walls say "First Things First," "Easy
Does It," "Live and Let Live," "Think, Think, Think," "But for the
Grace of God." I know the first three come from the end of Chapter 9
in the Big Book, but I have always been curious where the other two
came from and when did those signs first appear in meeting rooms?

2. I know Narcotics Anonymous started in Los Angeles in the 50's and
before it was NA it was called "AA for addicts." I know they were
allowed to "borrow" our steps and traditions. When they borrowed the
steps they put "We" in front of each step, which I understand, but in
the 12th Step which says "...having had a spiritual awakening as the
result...", NA changed to "...having had a spiritual awakening as a
result..." Does anyone know how/why this change was made?

3. I used to know the name of the author of "A Member's Eye View of
Alcoholics Anonymous" but I've forgotten. My recollection is that he
was from southern California and that it was written sometime in the
60's. Does anyone know his name?

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++++Message 2526. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: numbers at International
Convention
From: Jeff Your . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/7/2005 7:49:00 AM

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According to my source, (a GSO staffer), registrations were approaching
44,000
by that Saturday afternoon when we spoke.

As for countries represented, we need only look to the Flag Ceremony where,
by
my reckoning, 88 nations were represented. There was some duplication in the
ceremony itself. 90 flags or standards were presented. However there were
flags
from England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales AND the UK (1) and also the Puerto
Rican flag was presented (2) - technically a US possession, not a nation.
Incidentally, the First Nations - Indigenous Peoples of North America were
collectively represented by a member of the Ojibwa nation, who led the
ceremony
by presenting the Eagle Staff. One might argue that each tribe is a
sovereign
nation, too...
In a video presentation by our outgoing General Service Board Chair, Elaine
McDowell stated that there is AA activity in 180 countries.

jeff
--
In grateful service,

Jeffrey A. Your 216.691.0917 home
Alternate Delegate 216.397.4244 work
Area 54, Committee 55 216.397.1803 fax
Northeast Ohio General Service 216.496.7594 cell

> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:30:49 -0700 (PDT)
> From: brian thompson <SOBERONE12@YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: Anyone know the total numbers for the International Convention?
>
> Hello All,
> Does anyone know the Numbers for the
> International Convention that was in Toronto? Like
> total registered and how many countries reprsented ?
> I was there but never got any totals.
> Brian in IL-AZ

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++++Message 2527. . . . . . . . . . . . Studies of AA bashing
From: lorenzo . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2005 2:38:00 PM

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Dear friends, I'm wondering if there is an article somewhere
concerning disgruntled former AA people who write articles, books, or
form groups based on their dissatisfactions. A friend's sponsee just
dropped out of AA and sent his sponsor the link to
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-intro.html

To me it's just old hat. But I'd like to hear any reaction to this
site (and I'm sure there are others). But to call AA a "religious
cult," as "Secret Agent Orange" does is simply ignorant bs. I
appreciate any comments or citing of articles that deal with this kind
of thing. Thank you, Larry G in Placitas, NM.

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++++Message 2528. . . . . . . . . . . . one dollar contribution
From: edadami . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2005 12:12:00 AM

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Hi all. Can anyone shed any light on the custom of giving a one dollar
contribution to the basket that still seems to be the custom in many
places. About what year was that first common? What is the value of
one dollar today compared to those early one dollar years?
Is one dollar still pretty consistent across the U.S.A?

Love in the fellowship,

Ed A.

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++++Message 2529. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Info On Royalties
From: kurtzern@umich.edu . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2005 3:15:00 PM

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Hi,

*Not-God* was published by Hazelden Educational Services, which paid me
according to their accustomed royalty schedule. There was no relationship
between Haz and AA at the time. I have never received royalties from A.A.,
but
the AAGV did pay me a consultant's stipend for finding and arranging the
articles in *The Language of the Heart*.

ernie kurtz

Quoting ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com>:

> Following is a timeline showing the evolution of the royalty
> arrangements.
>
> SOURCE REFERENCES:
>
> 12&12 Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, AAWS
> AABB Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS
> AACOA AA Comes of Age, AAWS
> ABSI As Bill Sees It, AAWS
> AGAA The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous,
> by Dick B (soft cover)
> BW-RT Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)
> BW-FH Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)
> DBGO Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers, AAWS
> GB Getting Better Inside Alcoholics
> Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft cover)
> GTBT Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing
> (soft cover)
> GSC-FR General Service Conference - Final Report
> (identified by year), AAWS
> GSO General Service Office - Presentations and
> Literature, service pieces, AAWS/GSO US/Canada
> LOH The Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine
> Inc
> LR Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
> NG Not God, by Ernest Kurtz (expanded
> edition, soft cover)
> PIO Pass It On, AAWS
> SM AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts
> for
> World Service, AAWS
> WPR Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery, by
> Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones and Joan Ziegler (soft cover)
> www Internet Sources (e.g. Google, Microsoft
> Encarta, US National Archives & Records Administration NARA)
>
> Note: Consumer Price Index (CPI) conversion factors are used to
> convert dollar amounts to 2003 dollar values. The values (shown as
> "$nnn today") are the approximate dollars needed today to equal the
> purchasing power of the value converted. CPI conversion data are from
> Robert C Sahr, Political Science Dept, OR State U, Corvalis
> (www.orst.edu <http://www.orst.edu/[1]> )
>
> Both Bill W and Dr Bob received royalties from Big Book sales. Bill
> received royalties from three other books (12&12, AA Comes of Age and
> As Bill Sees It). The table below shows units book sales and
> royalties. The data are cumulative (e.g. unit sales of the Big Book
> from 1939-1980 was 2.7 million). The last column shows royalty
> dollars
> adjusted by CPI factors to show the amounts in year 2003 dollars.
>
> Cumulative Unit Sales
> Cumulative Royalties
>
> Year
> Big Book
> 12&12
> AACOA
> ABSI
> Total
> Royalty $
> CPI
> 2003 $
>
> 1952
> 257,700
>
> 257,700
> 43,806
> 0.144
> 317,428
>
> 1960
> 444,238
> 85,214
> 26,462
>
> 555,914
> 209,226
> 0.161
> 1,407,248
>
> 1970
> 814,058
> 245,000
> 69,707
> 60,736
> 1,189,501
> 581,997
> 0.211
> 3,450,429
>
> 1980
> 2,712,350
> 1,418,564
> 224,425
> 323,808
> 4,679,147
> 2,947,016
> 0.448
> 10,608,592
>
> 1990
> 10,764,209
> 6,269,398
> 469,499
> 1,146,409
> 18,649,515
> 10,979,271
> 0.711
> 23,978,729
>
> 2000
> 20,463,881
> 10,792,777
> 615,722
> 1,834,060
> 33,706,440
> 18,087,081
> 0.936
> 32,738,608
>
> 1938 - Feb, Willard Richardson asked Frank Amos to visit Akron, OH
> and
> make a report on the fledgling Fellowship. Amos made a very favorable
> report to Richardson who presented it to John D Rockefeller Jr.
> urging
> a donation of $50,000 ($650,000 today). (BW-FH 105-106 says $10,000,
> $5,000 a year for 2 years, in LOH 61 Bill W says $30,000). (SM S3,
> BW-RT 246, LR 197, DBGO 128-135, BW-FH 105-106, PIO 185-187, LOH 143,
> AGAA 217, 258) Rockefeller refused to make the donation but provided
> $5,000 ($65,000 today) to be held in a fund in the Riverside Church
> treasury. Much of the fund was used to pay off Dr Bob's mortgage and
> provide Bill and Bob with $30 a week ($390 today) as long as the fund
> lasted. (BW-RT 247, AACOA 149-151, DBGO 135, PIO 187-188)
>
> Sep, board Trustee Frank Amos arranged a meeting between Bill W and
> Eugene Exman (Religious Editor of Harper Brothers publishers). Exman
> offered Bill a $1,500 advance ($19,400 today) on the rights to the
> book. The Alcoholic Foundation Board urged acceptance of the offer.
> Instead, Hank P and Bill formed Works Publishing Co. and sold stock
> at
> $25 par value ($325 today). 600 shares were issued: Hank and Bill
> received 200 shares each, 200 shares were sold to others. Later, 30
> shares of preferred stock, at $100 par value ($1,300 today) were sold
> as well. To mollify the board, it was decided that the author's
> royalty (which would ordinarily be Bill's) could go to the Alcoholic
> Foundation. (LR 197, BW-FH 116-119, SM S6, PIO 193-195, AACOA 157,
> 188)
>
> 1939 - Apr, 4,730 copies of the 1st Ed. of Alcoholics Anonymous were
> published at a selling price of $3.50 ($46 today). The printer,
> Edward
> Blackwell of Cornwall Press, was told to use the thickest paper in
> his
> shop. The large, bulky volume became known as the "Big Book." The
> idea
> was to convince the alcoholic he was getting his money's worth.
> (AACOA
> viii, 170, NG 76, PIO 204-205, GB 59) The book had 8 roman and 400
> Arabic numbered pages. The Doctor's Opinion started as page 1 and the
> basic text ended at page 174.
>
> 1940 - May 22, Works Publishing Co. was incorporated. Bill W and Hank
> P gave up their stock with the stipulation that Dr Bob and Anne would
> receive 10% royalties on the Big Book for life. Hank was persuaded to
> relinquish his shares in exchange for a $200 payment ($2,600 today)
> for office furniture he claimed belonged to him. (AACOA 189-190, LR
> 199, BW-FH 119, SM 11, PIO 235-236, GTBT 92)
>
> 1941 - With the possibility that he might be recalled to active duty
> in the Army, Bill suggested, based on his authorship of the Big Book
> that he be granted a royalty on book sales, as a means of providing
> income for Lois. Bill was granted a 10% royalty and this, with one
> exception, became his sole source of income. The exception occurred
> sometime in the mid-1940's where Bill's income averaged $1,700
> ($17,300 today) over seven years. The board made a grant to Bill of
> $1,500 for each of the seven years for a total of $10,500 ($107,100
> today) out of which Bill purchased his Bedford Hills house. (1951
> GSC-FR 13)
>
> 1942 - Oct, Clarence S stirred up a controversy in Cleveland after
> discovering that Dr Bob and Bill W were receiving royalties from Big
> Book sales. (DBGO 267-269, BW-FH 153-154, AACOA 193-194) Bill and Dr
> Bob re-examined the problem of their financial status and concluded
> that royalties from the Big Book seemed to be the only answer to the
> problem. Bill sought counsel from Father Ed Dowling who suggested
> that
> Bill and Bob could not accept money for 12th Step work, but should
> accept royalties as compensation for special services. (AACOA
> 194-195,
> PIO 322-324)
>
> 1945 - The Alcoholic Foundation wrote to John D Rockefeller, Jr. and
> the 1940 dinner guests that AA no longer needed their financial help.
> Big Book royalties could look after Dr Bob and Bill W and Group
> contributions could pay the general office expenses. This ended all
> "outside contributions" to AA. (AACOA 203-204)
>
> 1947 - Aug, in his Grapevine Traditions essay titled Last Seven Years
> Have Made AA Self-Supporting, Bill W wrote "Two years ago the
> trustees
> set aside, out of AA book funds, a sum which enabled my wife and me
> to
> pay off the mortgage on our home and make some needed improvements.
> The Foundation also granted Dr Bob and me each a royalty of 10% on
> the
> book Alcoholics Anonymous, our only income from AA sources. We are
> both very comfortable and deeply grateful." (LOH 62-66)
>
> 1951 - Apr 20-22, the 1st experimental GSC. It recommended that: In
> future years, AA textbook literature should have Conference approval.
> The Trustees of the Alcoholic Foundation, following Dr Bob's death,
> voted to increase Bill's Big Book royalty from 10% to 15% and have
> the
> author's royalty apply to other books that Bill would write in the
> future. Bill insisted that this increase be submitted to the General
> Service Conference and the Conference approved the Trustee's motion
> unanimously. The Conference also approved unanimously a motion
> recommending that steps be taken to insure that Bill and Lois receive
> book royalties so long as either one shall live. (1951 GSC-FR 12)
>
> 1952 - Apr, the 2nd experimental GSC in NYC. The Panel 2 (38
> additional delegates) joined with the Panel 1 Delegates to conduct
> the
> first Conference of all Delegates attending. Based on a 1951 advisory
> action, the Alcoholic Foundation Board formed a special committee on
> literature and submitted a report to the 1952 Conference recommending
> literature items that should be retained and future literature items
> that would be needed. Bill W also made a presentation of the
> literature projects he was engaged in. The Conference unanimously
> approved the Board proposals and Bill's literature projects. Bill's
> projects led to development of 6 Conference-approved books:
>
> 1. 3rd Legacy Manual published in 1951 (renamed The AA Service
> Manual in 1969)
> 2. 12 Steps and 12 Traditions published in 1953
> 3. The 2nd edition Big Book published in 1955
> 4. AA Comes of Age published in 1957
> 5. 12 Concepts for World Service published in 1962
> 6. The AA way of Life published in 1966 (renamed to As Bill
> Sees
> It in1975)
>
> The actions of the Conference retroactively approved the Big Book and
> several pamphlets.
>
> 1953 - Jun, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions was published in two
> editions: one for $2.25 ($15.50 today) for distribution through AA
> groups, and a $2.75 ($19 today) edition distributed through Harper
> and
> Brothers for sale in commercial bookstores. (AACOA ix, 219, PIO
> 354-356)
>
> 1955 - Jun 26-29 and Jul 3, held in St Louis, MO. The 5th GSC
> recommended that: The retail price of the new edition of Alcoholics
> Anonymous be set at $4.50 ($30 today) the price to AA groups at $4.00
> ($27.50 today) and to earmark 50 cents for the reserve fund. (Fl Act)
>
>
> Jul 1-3, 20th anniversary and 2nd Int'l Convention at St Lois, MO.
> Theme: Coming of Age. (BW-RT 311, AACOA viii, GTBT 42-51, NG 131, SM
> S2) The 2nd Ed. of Alcoholics Anonymous was published. In his talk
> to
> the Convention, Bill thanked the attendees for purchasing Big Books
> because the royalties from it had provided him and Lois with a home
> where they had seen more than 3,000 AA members over the years. (AACOA
> 220, PIO 354, 357)
>
> 1957 - Oct, AA Comes of Age was published.
>
> 1958 - Apr, the 8th GSC approved the action of the GSB in reassigning
> to Bill royalty rights in his three books (Alcoholics Anonymous,
> Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions and Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of
> Age) and in books he may write in the future, for the duration of the
> copyrights involved. It further recommended that a paperback edition
> of the Big Book not be published.
>
> 1961 - Apr 19-23, the 9th GSC recommended that: no action be taken by
> the 1961 GSC on the proposal for a paperback edition of the Big Book.
> The following motion was adopted unanimously: The GSC recognizes that
> publication of cheap editions of AA books would probably reduce the
> income to World Services and Bill W's personal income. This GSC
> unanimously suggests the following to the Trustees: To add a rider to
> Bill's royalty contract to the effect that, if cheaper books are ever
> published, Bill's royalties be increased by an amount sufficient to
> keep the royalty income at the same average level it had been for the
> 5 years before the cheaper books were published; (further that) as
> time goes on, if inflation erodes the purchasing power of this
> income,
> the Trustees will adjust the royalties to produce the same
> approximate
> purchasing power; this to be effective during the lifetime of Bill
> and
> Lois and Bill's legatees. (PIO 393).
>
> 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of
> his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W. The
> agreement provided Bill and Lois with a comfortable living on annual
> incomes between $30,000 to $40,000 during the 1960's ($175,000 to
> $230,000 today). At the time of Bill's death (1971) it was around
> $56,000 ($250,000 today). In the 1970's, royalties surged
> significantly and it made Lois W quite rich. (PIO 393, BW-FH 192-193,
> GB 69-70, WPR 72)
>
> 1964 - Apr 21-26. The 14th GSC recommended that: an agreement between
> Bill W, co-founder and AAWS, Inc. covering royalties derived from
> Bill's writings be approved. Under the terms of the contract, a
> royalty of 15% is paid to Bill, except that no royalties are paid on
> "overseas editions." Royalties are to be paid to Bill and Lois, his
> wife, during their lifetimes; following the deaths of Bill and Lois,
> royalties revert in shares of royalties to living heirs. These shares
> revert to AAWS upon the death of beneficiaries. Not more than 20% may
> be bequeathed to any heir under the age of 40 years as of the date of
> the agreement between Bill and AAWS (Apr 29, 1963). The contract
> provides protection of royalties against "cheap books" and protection
> of AAWS and Bill against fluctuations in general economic conditions.
> AAWS retains the right of "first refusal" on any future literary
> works
> of Bill's.
>
> 1967 - The AA Way of Life (retitled in 1975 to As Bill Sees It) was
> published. In Apr, the copyright to the 1st Ed. Big Book expired and
> was not renewed. The oversight was not discovered by AAWS until 1985.
> (NG 299)
>
> 1971 - Jan 24, Bill W, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, 36 years
> sober, died (of emphysema, sometimes described as heart failure) at
> Miami Beach, FL. It was his and Lois' 53rd wedding anniversary.
> (AACOA
> xi, BW-FH 5)
>
> 1973 - Apr, distribution of the Big Book reached the one-million
> mark.
> The millionth copy was presented to President Richard Nixon in the
> Whitehouse. (NG 267, BW-FH 113)
>
> 1976 - Publication of the 3rd Ed. of Alcoholics Anonymous. (AACOA xi)
>
> 1978 - Distribution of the Big Book passed the 2 million mark. (AACOA
> xi, NG 267)
> 1981 - Aug, distribution of the Big Book passed the 3 million mark.
> (AACOA xi, NG 267)
> 1983 - Distribution of the Big Book reached the 4 million mark. (NG
> 268)
>
> 1985 - AAWS discovered that the copyrights to the 1st and 2nd Ed. of
> the Big Book had expired. The copyright on the 1st Ed. lapsed in
> 1967.
> The copyright on new material in the 2nd Ed. lapsed in 1983. Both
> AAWS
> and the Wilson estate shared responsibility for copyright renewal.
> (NG
> 299, www) Distribution of the Big Book reached the 5 million mark.
> (NG
> 268)
>
> 1986 - Nov, the first paperback edition of the Big Book was
> published.
> (NG 301)
> 1987 - Distribution of the Big Book reached the 6 million mark. (NG
> 268)
>
> 1988 - Oct 5, Lois W (age 97) co-founder of Al-Anon Family Groups,
> died. (AACOA xi) Royalties passed to her surviving designated heirs
> which included Dr Leonard Strong husband of Lois' sister-in-law
> Dorothy (Bill's sister), a niece and nephew, Muriel Strong Morley and
> Leonard V Strong III, and sisters-in-law Laura and Florence Burnham.
> Also listed were Nell Wing, Lois' cousins Carol Lou Burnham, Ann
> Burhan Smith, Ann Walker, Dixon Walker and Kate Knap plus Bill's
> cousins Jean Kalkoff and Barbara Palazari. 50% was bequeathed to the
> Stepping Stones Foundation (to terminate on the later of August 31,
> 1997 or 10 years after Lois' death).
>
> 1990 - Jul, AA's 55th anniversary and 9th Int'l Convention held at
> Seattle, WA. Nell Wing was presented the 10 millionth copy of the Big
> Book. (PIO 206 says 10 millionth copy printed Mar 1991)
>
> 2001 - Apr 22-28,. The 51st GSC recommended that the 4th Ed. of the
> Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, be approved. Nov 1, 4th Ed. of
> Alcoholics Anonymous published. It contained 24 new personal stories.
> (GSO) Distribution of the Big Book reached the 22 million mark.
>
> 2002 Distribution of the Big Book was reported as: 1st Ed 300,000
> copies, 2nd Ed 1,150,000 copies, 3rd Ed 19.550.000 copies and 4th Ed
> 1, 225,000 copies (2002 GSC-FR 15)
>
> 2004 Jan, Distribution of the Big Book reached the 22 million mark.
> (GSO)
> 2004 Jan, Distribution of the Big Book reached the 25 million mark.
> (GSO)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> -------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers[2]" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com[3]
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service[4].
>
> -------------------------
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://www.orst.edu/
> [2] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers
> [3]
> mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe
> [4] http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

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++++Message 2530. . . . . . . . . . . . The First 200?
From: jtx472 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2005 8:54:00 AM

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Does anybody have a copy of the list of the first 200 members? I know
it's out there somewhere because I remember seeing the list a long
time ago. If you do, would you email me a copy at <jtx472@yahoo.com>.

Thanks much
Thomas R.

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++++Message 2531. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Think slogan and Grace slogan
From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2005 11:43:00 AM

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THE FOLLOWING QUESTION WAS ASKED BY "xxpmds" <pmds@aol.com>
Where did the A.A. signs come from which say "Think, Think, Think" and "But
for
the Grace of God"?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: khemex@comcast.net Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 11:43am
The only person that I ever heard give credit to anyone for the "Think Think
Think" Slogan was Clarence Snyder. He claimed that a fellow who worked for
International Business Machines (Now IBM or "Big Blue") had a stack of them
left
over from an motivation campaign of theirs and brought them to a Club where
they
were distributed for members use.
Clarence had an interesting view on that. He thought that was the worst
thing
you could do to an alcoholic, especially a new one, to tell them to think,
because that's what usually got us in trouble to begin with.
I hope this is helpful.
In The Spirit of Love and Service, Gerry W.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "Joe Nugent" <joe-gent@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 4:49am
On the old AAHistoryBuffs site, Jim Blair posted the following on 6/27/2001:
"I listened to a tape by Clarence Snyder in which he explained that one of
the
early mechanical calculators came with a sign for the operator which said:
Think....about what you are about to do.
Think....of what you are doing.
Think...of what you have done.
Clarence explained that some drunk had a bunch made up and sent them out to
the
groups in early 1944-45."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com> Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:08am
The sign "Think, Think, Think" was all the rage on the walls of every IBM
Corporation office in the late 50's and early 60's.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 2:35pm
The only bothersome trivial questions are the ones not asked.
The source of 4 of the slogans is the Big Book: "But for the Grace of God"
is
from the chapter "There Is A Solution" (on pg 25). "Easy Does It," "First
Things
First" and "Live and Let Live" are from the chapter "The Family Afterward"
(on
pg 135).
The origin of the slogan "Think, Think, Think" is a mystery. Some sources
say it
originated in Cleveland (and assert Clarence S. invented it) in the
mid-1940s;
however, its definitive origin remains obscure.
"Think" was an early corporate motto of IBM.
The 5 slogan plaques we frequently see on the walls of AA meeting rooms
today
were originally published on the inside back cover of 5 issues of the AA
Grapevine (from September to December 1956 and in February 1957).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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++++Message 2532. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member''s Eye View
From: mikeroof . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2005 2:25:00 PM

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THE FOLLOWING QUESTION WAS ASKED BY "xxpmds" <pmds@aol.com>
I used to know the name of the author of "A Member's Eye View of Alcoholics
Anonymous" but I've forgotten. My recollection is that he was from southern
California and that it was written sometime in the 60's. Does anyone know
his
name?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "mikeroof" <mikeroof@gatewayone.com> Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 2:25pm
The author of "A Member's Eye-View of AA" was Allen McGinness. I met him and
talked with him a few times and attended his lecture one year on alcoholism
at
UCLA. At that time I was living in Hollywood, California, where I got sober
(now
36 years sober). Allen, like Bill Wilson, suffered after getting sober from
depression, but when I last knew him he was doing well, I believe. Allen's
"Beginner's Workshop" audio tapes I, II, III, IV, V, and VI were very
popular in
Hollywood -- I still have a copy of them. I moved to Alexandria, Virginia in
1977 so I can't tell you what happened to Allen after that.
Best wishes, Mike Roof
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 2:35pm
“A Member’s-Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous”
There were unsuccessful attempts in the 1980s to construct a history of AA
that
picked up from the point where Bill W. ended in “AA Comes of Age” (i.e.
from
1955 on). An extract from the manuscript of that aborted history project is
shown below:
“… one of the most powerful and popular pamphlets in the AA library,
almost
never saw the light of day. Trustee Bayard P, an executive with a large
advertising agency in New York, while on a business trip to California with
his
wife, Marjorie (also active in the program), looked up an old associate at
the
agency (and fellow AA member), Allan McG (parenthetically, past trustee
George D
remembers Allan McG as a leader in Southern California AA when he joined in
1961, and says of him, “He was the most interesting man I ever met, the
most
stimulating. He was brilliantly articulate and touched many, many people").
When
Allan met Bayard and Marjorie P for dinner, he mentioned to them that he was
making his annual speech about Alcoholics Anonymous to a class at UCLA which
he
had done for a number of years. They asked him if he had a manuscript of the
talk, which he later showed them; it was called “A Member’s Eye View of
AA” “We
were absolutely thrilled by it,” recalls Bayard. “It was the best thing
of the
kind we’d ever read, and we asked Allan’s permission to take it back to
New York
and see if it could be an AA publication. Which we did.”
When Herb M brought the manuscript to the AAWS Board, staff member Ann M
raised
strenuous objections based on the fact that it was one person’s opinion
and one
person’s writing and had not evolved through the group conscience as all
the
other Conference-approved literature had. The same opposition was raised at
the
Trustees’ Literature Committee. However, the inherent excellence and value
of
the piece ultimately prevailed. It was approved by the Conference and
published
in 1970, with a prefatory explanation which read in part, “Though the AA
program
relies upon the sharing of experience, the recovery process itself is highly
individual. Therefore, the program is described here as it appears to one
member; but the pamphlet does reflect Fellowship thinking.” Although the
pamphlet was originally conceived of to explain the program to alcoholism
professionals and other outsiders, it has provided fresh insights for AA
members
as well.
Cheers, Arthur
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"mymailbox1998" <cdknapp@pacbell.net> and "mchugh1652"
<mchugh1652@ameritech.net> both referred us to message #1737.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MESSAGE #1737
From: "mlibby" <mlibby@...> Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 1:06 am
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Alan Guiness/A Members Eye View of AA
His name was Allen McGuiness (deceased) and I believe he was from Southern
California. I love the pamphlet and have memorized a large chunk of it
because
it is, in my opinion, the most beautiful expression of what AA is that I
have
ever read. I'll send you separately a 15 minute excerpt from the pamphlet
that I
recite daily on my way to work.
You can go to xa-speakers.org and search for "Allen" and you'll find a
series of
five talks he gave in Brentwood, California back in 1968 called "AA
Workshop" or
something to that effect. Tremendous....very much in line with A Member's
Eye
View.
You can download those and learn a significant amount more about this man
through his sharing... He got sober in the early 1950's, went out shortly
thereafter, but came back. Thank God.
Mike
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2533. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: NA twelfth step wording
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2005 2:35:00 PM

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THE FOLLOWING QUESTION WAS ASKED BY "xxpmds" <pmds@aol.com>
I know Narcotics Anonymous started in Los Angeles in the 50's and before it
was
NA it was called "AA for addicts." I know they were allowed to "borrow" our
steps and traditions. When they borrowed the steps they put "We" in front of
each step, which I understand, but in the 12th Step which says "...having
had a
spiritual awakening as the result...", NA changed to "...having had a
spiritual
awakening as a result..." Does anyone know how/why this change was made?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 2:35pm

Hi,

The only bothersome trivial questions are the ones not asked.

The choice between the article “the” or “a” in NA’s Step 12:

First off it seems that a clear notion of when NA actually began is not all
that
easy to pin down. NA’s web site states that their Fellowship originated in
the
late 1940s as opposed to the early 1950s.

Among the obvious changes NA made to the 12 Steps of AA, I’d be surprised
(and a
bit skeptical) if you get a convincing answer beyond the realm of hearsay.

The choice of the article “a” in NA’s Step 12 (as opposed to the
article “the”)
could as easily be attributed to an erroneous transcription as much as a
deliberate alteration. I have to
confess to often substituting “a” for “the” in my own transcriptions
of Step 12
and was very kindly corrected by a member of AAHL when I did it in a prior
posting to AAHL.

Cheers
Arthur
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi

The only bothersome trivial questions are the ones not asked.

1. Slogans

The source of 4 of the slogans is the Big Book: "But for the Grace of
God" is from the chapter "There Is A Solution" (on pg 25). "Easy Does
It," "First Things First" and "Live and Let Live" are from the chapter
"The Family Afterward" (on pg 135).

The origin of the slogan "Think, Think, Think" is a mystery. Some
sources say it originated in Cleveland (and assert Clarence S invented
it) in the mid-1940s; however, its definitive origin remains obscure.
"Think" was an early corporate motto of IBM.

The 5 slogan plaques we frequently see on the walls of AA meeting
rooms today were originally published on the inside back cover of 5
issues of the AA Grapevine (from September to December 1956 and in
February 1957).

2. The choice between the article “the” or “a” in NA’s Step 12

First off it seems that a clear notion of when NA actually began is
not all that easy to pin down. NA’s web site states that their
Fellowship originated in the late 1940s as opposed to the early 1950s.

Among the obvious changes NA made to the 12 Steps of AA, I’d be
surprised (and a bit skeptical) if you get a convincing answer beyond
the realm of hearsay. The choice of the article “a” in NA’s Step 12
(as opposed to the article “the”) could as easily be attributed to an
erroneous transcription as much as a deliberate alteration. I have to
confess to often substituting “a” for “the” in my own transcriptions
of Step 12 and was very kindly corrected by a member of AAHL when I
did it in a prior posting to AAHL.

3. “A Member’s-Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous”

There were unsuccessful attempts in the 1980s to construct a history
of AA that picked up from the point where Bill W ended in “AA Comes of
Age” (i.e. from 1955 on). An extract from the manuscript of that
aborted history project is shown below:

“… one of the most powerful and popular pamphlets in the AA library,
almost never saw the light of day. Trustee Bayard P, an executive with
a large advertising agency in New York, while on a business trip to
California with his wife, Marjorie (also active in the program),
looked up an old associate at the agency (and fellow AA member), Allan
McG (Parenthetically, past trustee George D remembers Allan McG as a
leader in Southern California AA when he joined in 1961, and says of
him, “He was the most interesting man I ever met, the most
stimulating. He was brilliantly articulate and touched many, many
people.") When Allan met Bayard and Marjorie P for dinner, he
mentioned to them that he was making his annual speech about
Alcoholics Anonymous to a class at UCLA which he had done for a number
of years. They asked him if he had a manuscript of the talk, which he
later showed them; it was called “A Member’s Eye View of AA” “We
were
absolutely thrilled by it,” recalls Bayard. “It was the best thing of
the kind we’d ever read, and we asked Allan’s permission to take it
back to New York and see if it could be an AA publication. Which we
did.”

When Herb M brought the manuscript to the AAWS Board, staff member Ann
M raised strenuous objections based on the fact that it was one
person’s opinion and one person’s writing and had not evolved through
the group conscience as all the other Conference-approved literature
had. The same opposition was raised at the Trustees’ Literature
Committee. However, the inherent excellence and value of the piece
ultimately prevailed. It was approved by the Conference and published
in 1970, with a prefatory explanation which read in part, “Though the
AA program relies upon the sharing of experience, the recovery process
itself is highly individual. Therefore, the program is described here
as it appears to one member; but the pamphlet does reflect Fellowship
thinking.” Although the pamphlet was originally conceived of to
explain the program to alcoholism professionals and other outsiders,
it has provided fresh insights for AA members as well.

Cheers
Arthur

________________________________________
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of xxpmds
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:06 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] bothersome trivial questions

I've been a sober member of AA for more than 21 years, just joined
this group and there are a few things I have always wondered about and
I'm hoping someone can help me out. Parenthetically, Earle Marsh
("Physician Heal Thyself") was my sponsor for 19 years so if any of
you have any questions about him I'll try to answer them.

1. The signs on many of our walls say "First Things First," "Easy
Does It," "Live and Let Live," "Think, Think, Think," "But for the
Grace of God." I know the first three come from the end of Chapter 9
in the Big Book, but I have always been curious where the other two
came from and when did those signs first appear in meeting rooms?

2. I know Narcotics Anonymous started in Los Angeles in the 50's and
before it was NA it was called "AA for addicts." I know they were
allowed to "borrow" our steps and traditions. When they borrowed the
steps they put "We" in front of each step, which I understand, but in
the 12th Step which says "...having had a spiritual awakening as the
result...", NA changed to "...having had a spiritual awakening as a
result..." Does anyone know how/why this change was made?

3. I used to know the name of the author of "A Member's Eye View of
Alcoholics Anonymous" but I've forgotten. My recollection is that he
was from southern California and that it was written sometime in the
60's. Does anyone know his name?

________________________________________
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

• Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

• To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

• Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

________________________________________

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++++Message 2534. . . . . . . . . . . . Author of "A Member''s Eye View of
Alcoholics Anonymous"
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2005 11:09:00 PM

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I used to know the name of the author of "A Member's Eye View of
Alcoholics Anonymous" but I've forgotten. My recollection is that he
was from southern California and that it was written sometime in the
60's. Does anyone know his name?

His name is Allen McGinnis. I have a 1968 audio tape of him speaking at the
Brentwood Thursday Night Workshop in Southern California. I have read a bio
of him but do not have it.

Bob S., from Indiana

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2535. . . . . . . . . . . . Warden receiving 25th millionth Big
Book fired
From: Gilbert Gamboa . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2005 12:32:00 AM

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MESSAGE 2492 SAID:

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
Date: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:25 am

25 Millionth Alcoholics Anonymous 'Big Book'
To be Given in Gratitude to Warden of San Quentin
June 20, 2005

(TORONTO, ONTARIO) The 25 millionth copy of the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous
will be presented to Jill Brown, warden of San Quentin prison, at the
International Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous which takes place in
Toronto
June 31 - July 3. The landmark book will be presented to Warden Brown by
Allen
Ault, Class A (nonalcoholic) trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous, who has been a
director of corrections in three states and is currently Dean of the College
of
Justice and Safety at Eastern Kentucky University in the United States. The
gift
of the book is A.A.'s way of expressing gratitude for that institution's
long
history of supporting A.A as a resource for alcoholic inmates.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Gilbert Gamboa <text164@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 0:32am

Subject: Warden that received 25th millionth big book in Toronto Fired as
warden

Sacramento -- The warden at San Quentin State Prison, after little more than
a
year on the job, was fired Thursday amid an investigation into health care
problems at the facility.

Jill Brown, a longtime corrections official who took over the top job at the
Marin County prison in May 2004, has been under investigation by the state
inspector general's office, and a corrections official said the office's
report
led to Brown's dismissal. Todd Slosek, press secretary for the Department of
Corrections and Rehabilitation, said Brown was told Thursday of her firing.
The
inspector general's office, which acts as an independent corrections
watchdog,
investigated allegations that Brown had threatened disciplinary action
against a
doctor who spoke with attorneys about problems with health care delivery at
the
prison.

The report has not yet been made public, and calls to the inspector
general's
office were not returned Thursday. The office's findings include that a lack
of
communication between prison officials and medical staff played a large role
in
the poor health care there, according to a corrections official who
requested to
be remain anonymous.

California's prisons have been under fire for more than a year over medical
care
for inmates. Last week, a federal judge ordered that a receiver take over
health
care in the state's prisons. The judge concluded that conditions were so bad
that inmates were dying for lack of proper medical treatment. Inmates have a
constitutional right to adequate health care, and U.S. Judge Thelton
Henderson
found that that right was being violated. Court-ordered improvements could
send
costs skyrocketing above the $1.1 billion already spent annually on prisoner
health care. San Quentin had been singled out earlier this year by medical
experts who described filthy examination rooms and "deplorable'' conditions.

The prison's administrators have repeatedly failed to implement
court-ordered
improvements to health care, said Alison Hardy, an attorney for the Prison
Law
Office, which represents inmates in a class-action lawsuit over inmate
medical
care. Hardy noted that a 2003 directive to inform inmates of upcoming
doctor's
appointments so they wouldn't miss them was not implemented until a few
months
ago. Inmates frequently were given just a few hours' notice of an
appointment
and often couldn't get out of work or other duties and were forced to forgo
doctor's visits.

"San Quentin has had enormous health care problems and has lacked the
leadership
to fix them,'' Hardy said. "Jill Brown inherited a big mess, but she didn't
lead
them out of it.''

Brown had replaced Jeanne Woodford, who is now second-in-command of state
prisons, after five years as San Quentin's warden.
The oldest prison in California, San Quentin houses the state's condemned
inmates. The Death Row there is undergoing a $220 million renovation. The
prison
has 5,967 inmates, about twice its intended capacity.

Slosek said John Stokes, who has been chief deputy warden at the prison
since
April, will become acting warden.
It is unclear what will happen to Brown. Under state civil service rules,
she
could return to a prison job, such as associate warden, that isn't an
appointed
position. Brown has been a state corrections employee for more than 20
years,
working at numerous prisons in the state's system.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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++++Message 2536. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Studies of AA bashing
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2005 6:10:00 PM

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--I have corresponded with "agent orange" and he has quoted me in his
web pages. I have an idea of who he is but he has not revealed his
identity to me. Agent-Orange has always been respectful to me and
despite our differences of opinions he has never given me reason to
discontinue our dialogue.

Bill wrote that AA can grow with the help of its detractors and I think
anyone who wants to make an informed choice should be aware of all
sides to any story in order to make that choice and have it fully
informed.

I haven't found all AA bashers or detractors to be totally ignorant nor
have all of their postings and "information" found to be "bs." Despite
my personal feelings, the courts, thanks to such cases as Orange County
(NY) Department of Probation v Robert Warner etc, AA has been viewed as
religious in nature. Given the letter of the law, AA may be viewed as
some as a religious cult. I could care less how AA is viewed because
the individual still can recover even without the organization. When I
say organization I am referring to the business entities known as
Alcoholics Anonymous and not the Fellowship or Program known as
Alcoholics Anonymous.

Mitchell K.

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++++Message 2537. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st Int''l. AA Conf. 12 Traditions
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2005 7:28:00 AM

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Good morning all! I was wondering, has anyone transcribed the recording
of the speakers introducing & talking about the 12 Traditions at the 1st
International Conference of AA in Cleveland 1950 just before they were
agreed upon by the fellowship? If so, I would like to get & read that.
Thanks, take it easy & God bless!

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

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++++Message 2538. . . . . . . . . . . . Harper edition of the 12 & 12
From: Mike Custer . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2005 10:00:00 AM

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Hello to all in group, I need some help.

I have a copy of a 12 & 12 and on the first page it says: TWELVE STEPS and
TWELVE TRADITIONS.

On the second page it says: TWELVE STEPS and TWELVE TRADITIONS - ANONYMOUS -
Harper & Brothers, New York - By Arrangement With Alcoholics Anonymous
Publishing, Inc.

On the back of this second page it says: Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
-
Copyright, 1952, 1953, by Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc. - First
Edition
D-C - Printed in the United States of America - All rights in this book are
reserved. - Library of Congress catalog card number: 53-5454.

My first two questions are: was this commercial Harper edition published
before
the AA edition? And who got the Royalties from this Harper & Brothers
printing?

I have never seen one of these books before, so my third question is: should
I
keep this book as a valuable first edition?

I really hope that somebody can help me out with my questions.

Thank you so very much and God bless, Mike :)

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++++Message 2539. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of international conference
From: billyk3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2005 4:56:00 AM

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If anyone has any pictures they took at the recent international conference,
please send them to me directly at billyk3@yahoo.com

I would be very interested in seeing them.

thanks
be good to yourselves,
billyk

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++++Message 2540. . . . . . . . . . . . Prescription for Sobriety
From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2005 4:49:00 PM

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Recently I've received a few copies of a "Prescription for sobriety."
apparently written by Dr. Bob. Is this an authentic reproduction, or
something made up by another alcoholic to add importance to his own
ideas, as per Chapter XVII, "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers"?
Jim S.

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++++Message 2541. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harper edition of the 12 & 12
From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2005 4:26:00 PM

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Mike, Hold on to that book.

Harper printed three different times.

Also you may already know that Harper also printed the 1st AA Comes of age
in 1957 along with AA

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++++Message 2542. . . . . . . . . . . . Emotional Sobriety
From: johnnyopat . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2005 10:07:00 PM

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Does anyone have any info or articles on any of the works that Bill
Wilson did with Fr. Ed Dowling and Dr. Harry Tiebout and anyone else,
on the subject of Emotional Sobriety. I read an article in Language of
the Heart pertaining to this, and I believe there are some brief
exerpts in As Bill Sees It. I have great interest in this and any other
additional info would be greatly appreicated.

Thanks all-Kurt O.

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++++Message 2543. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s archives
From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2005 9:33:00 AM

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Hello,

I am planning a trip to Brown University to look at some of Dr.Bob's
materials.
I am particularly interested in the period from about 1945 to 1950.

The librarian at Brown has indicated to me that the materials are not in one
place and that some may still be in boxes. She also indicated she was not
very
familiar with the materials.

Anyone with some info on how I could effectively spend my research time
there
would be appreciated.

On another note, I just visited Henrietta Seiberling's cottage in Akron and
a
framed posting on the library wall states that her two daughters were at the
house when Bill met Dr. Bob for the first time there and the local guide
said
she thought one of the daughters, Mary, was still alive. Could she be the
last
living person present at the cottage when the meeting took place?

Thanks,

Pete K.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2544. . . . . . . . . . . . Oxford Group, V. C. Kitchen, and
A.A.
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2005 1:22:00 AM

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"Changed by Grace: V. C. Kitchen, the Oxford Group, and A.A.," by Glenn C.

In 1934, V. C. Kitchen published a book called "I Was a Pagan," describing
his
discovery of the Oxford Group and the way it had changed his life. Kitchen's
book shows how the Oxford Group revitalized some of the most important ideas
which the founders of the modern evangelical movement had discovered back in
the
eighteenth century. By studying his book, we can see how the new A.A.
movement
was able to use these techniques to actually change human character and,
with
that, human motivation and behavior.

Six chapters:

1. The Oxford Group and the Eighteenth Century Evangelical Movement (
http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang1.html )

2. Power to Heal the Soul ( http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang2.html )

3. House Parties, Confession, Surrender, and Guidance (
http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang3.html )

4. Quiet Time, Guidance, and God-Bearers (
http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang4.html
)

5. The Four Absolutes and the Dangers of Legalism (
http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang5.html )

6. The Balanced Life: Seeking the Golden Mean (
http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang6.html )

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2545. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emotional Sobriety
From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2005 10:15:00 AM

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Hazelden has a series of pamphlets written by Harry Tiebout

In a message dated 7/13/2005 11:45:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Kurtindnpls7@aol.com writes:

Does anyone have any info or articles on any of the works that Bill
Wilson did with Fr. Ed Dowling and Dr. Harry Tiebout and anyone else,
on the subject of Emotional Sobriety. I read an article in Language of
the Heart pertaining to this, and I believe there are some brief
exerpts in As Bill Sees It. I have great interest in this and any other
additional info would be greatly appreicated.

Thanks all-Kurt O.

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2546. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s archives
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2005 2:24:00 PM

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Hi Pete,

The other daughter was Dorothy. I interviewed her in person in New York
around
1980, but I hadn't heard that she passed on. John Seiberling, the son, was
away
at boarding school, or so I was told. However, John is still living in Akron
and could probably give you some answers. He is a retired U.S. Congressman
and
has been very cooperative with AA.

Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <greatcir@comcast.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Bob's archives

Hello,

I am planning a trip to Brown University to look at some of Dr.Bob's
materials.
I am particularly interested in the period from about 1945 to 1950. The
librarian at Brown has indicated to me that the materials are not in one
place
and that some may still be in boxes. She also indicated she was not very
familiar with the materials. Anyone with some info on how I could
effectively
spend my research time there would be appreciated.

On another note, I just visited Henrietta Seiberling's cottage in Akron and
a
framed posting on the library wall states that her two daughters were at the
house when Bill met Dr. Bob for the first time there and the local guide
said
she thought one of the daughters, Mary, was still alive.

Could she be the last living person present at the cottage when the
meeting took place?

Thanks,
Pete K.

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++++Message 2547. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Prescription for Sobriety
From: Tom P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2005 6:59:00 PM

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Jim- An article in the Grapevine (Vol 2 Issue 1) in June 1945 with the
title "A Prescription for Sobriety" was published. It was written
from an interview with Dr. Silkworth and includes some very
interesting insights into slips.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jim S." <james.scarpine@v...>
wrote:
Recently I've received a few copies of a "Prescription for sobriety."
apparently written by Dr. Bob. Is this an authentic reproduction, or
something made up by another alcoholic to add importance to his own
ideas, as per Chapter XVII, "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers"?
Jim S.

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++++Message 2548. . . . . . . . . . . . Member''s Eye View & Allen McGiness
From: jimmy . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2005 10:26:00 PM

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Re: Allen McGiness and "A Members Eye View of AA"

There is a recording of Allen McGinnis delivering his five part talk at a
series
of meetings, recorded and downloadable at: http://tinyurl.com/9o8wj

There are five of these. They are on a donation supported website, at no
cost to
download or listen.

Also, his book "The Rest of Your Life," by Allen Reid McGinnis, is
available from J and N Publishing. ISBN 0-9616042-0-4

______________________________________________

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "xxpmds" <pmds@a...> wrote:

I've been a sober member of AA for more than 21 years, just joined this
group
and there are a few things I have always wondered about and I'm hoping
someone
can help me out ....

I used to know the name of the author of "A Member's Eye View of Alcoholics
Anonymous" but I've forgotten. My recollection is that he was from southern
California and that it was written sometime in the 60's. Does anyone know
his
name?

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++++Message 2549. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emotional Sobriety
From: Aasanmateo@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2005 7:28:00 AM

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You will find an article "Love" in "The Best of Bill" of the AA Grapevine,
in which Bill wrote about emotional sobriety.
Gabi
San Mateo County, CA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2550. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emotional Sobriety
From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2005 12:31:00 PM

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Bill's Grapevine essay "The Next Frontier--Emotional
Sobriety" is extraordinary. It's from the January 1958
Grapevine. You can find it online in the Grapevine
archives (slight charge) or go to Language of the
Heart.

george

--- johnnyopat <Kurtindnpls7@aol.com> wrote:

> Does anyone have any info or articles on any of the
> works that Bill
> Wilson did with Fr. Ed Dowling and Dr. Harry Tiebout
> and anyone else,
> on the subject of Emotional Sobriety. I read an
> article in Language of
> the Heart pertaining to this, and I believe there
> are some brief
> exerpts in As Bill Sees It. I have great interest in
> this and any other
> additional info would be greatly appreicated.
>
> Thanks all-Kurt O.
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail

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++++Message 2551. . . . . . . . . . . . LSD
From: Emmanuel John . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/20/2005 8:58:00 AM

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While I've heard a lot about Bill having participated in LSD studies in
England
via the literature, I was wondering if anyone had any more information about
these studies, who conducted them? How long they ran? How much did Bill
actually
participate and what were his true rationales for doing so?

Peace and Happy Days
Emmanuel S. John, LCSW-C (20+)

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++++Message 2552. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Forgotten Steps " Six and
Seven"
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/21/2005 12:05:00 AM

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This may be of interest to you regarding steps 6 & 7. While reading the
fifty or so old Oxford Group books about a decade ago looking for evidence
of
the steps I found that it was most difficult to find reference to these two
in
particular without a quantum stetch of imagination. Finally I found an
Oxford
Group article in a 1937 edition of Liberty that had wording very very
similar to
these two steps. If you or anyone comes across this article please document
these short paragraphs.

Around the same time I was conducting research in the GSO archives.
They had just gotten a word search computer up loaded with many of
Bill's letters. This was quite high tech here and as calls came in
they could use the computers to see if anything specific was written.
One call came in asking if there was any difference between Bill's
intent regarding the words "defects of character" and "shortcomings"
in these two sister steps. As if by magic the computer revealed a
letter by Bill saying that the meaning was intended to be synonomous
and that the different words were merely semantic for literary flow.

-merton

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia" <pdixonrae@y...>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 9:49 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Forgotten Steps " Six and Seven"

I have been looking for my copy of the article on the Forgotten Steps.I
can't
remember who wrote it for AA and Bill Wilson. I think it was Fosdick. Can
someone help point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Patricia D

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++++Message 2553. . . . . . . . . . . . Hi I''m an Alcoholic and my name is
From: Michael . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2005 12:37:00 PM

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Hi I'm new to this group and love reading all of the questions and
replies. I've been a member of AA since April 04/1983 in the Toronto
area. I was wondering if anyone knows the history behind the custom
of introducing ourselves at meetings by saying "Hi I'm an Alcoholic
and my name is Michael." Also interested if this is a requirement in
groups to attend closed meetings in your areas.
I look forward to your responses.
Regards
Michael S.

FROM THE MODERATOR:
I might just note that in early AA in some parts of the United States, for
quite
a long time people would instead give their name and their sobriety date
when
they were introducing themselves. Sgt. Bill S. told me that in the later
1940's
and 1950's, he ran into the formula "My name is _____ and I'm an alcoholic"
more
often in the upper midwest. He said that during that period, in the New York
City area and in Texas, he always introduced himself by saying "My name is
Bill
and my sobriety date is July 5, 1948."

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++++Message 2554. . . . . . . . . . . . Multiple answers (from the
moderator)
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2005 12:46:00 PM

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Hi to everybody,

Especially in light of all the many answers submitted in response to the LSD
question, I wanted to make sure that everyone in the group understood how we
do
things. Nancy Olson, the founder and original moderator of this group, had a
set
of guidelines that she used for deciding which messages to post, and how to
post
them. I have tried to follow the same policies since her death.

One of the main reasons is that we have 1,343 members living literally all
over
the globe (Mexico, Ireland, India, Sweden, and so on) which means that we
sometimes get a whole lot more answers to a question than we could post
without
overwhelming everybody's email systems. So not every message sent in will be
posted. Nancy felt that part of what made the group so enjoyable was that
the
moderator used some selectivity before posting anything.

So one of the policies which Nancy followed was that, when more than one
person
gives what is essentially the same answer to a question, the moderator will
either post the first or the clearest answer, or will sometimes combine
several
answers into a single posting.

Also, the general rule is that what are merely personal opinions are to be
avoided: no personal opinions, or posts based just on rumor or vague memory
of
what someone told you will be posted. Nancy used to remind people
frequently:
please, to the extent possible, list the sources for any information you
send.

A confession: I used to get a little bit annoyed too, when I sent in a
marvelous
answer to a question, one which was (in my opinion) a true work of art, and
an
extraordinary contribution to historical research, and Nancy posted somebody
else's answer instead of mine (grin). Even then though, I basically
understood
why she had to do it.

So in light of this, please in particular accept my apologies for not
posting
your answer to the LSD question, if you sent one in and it didn't show up on
the
message board. And we will probably have to do this on some other questions
too,
from time to time, when we get a huge flood of answers.

Glenn Chesnut, Moderator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2555. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: LSD
From: Jeffrey Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/22/2005 5:16:00 PM

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Emmanuel,

This topic has been explored at length by the AAHistoryLovers group, and
therefore, a search of the message archives should produce much insight.

For your reference, I've attached a compliation of messages responding to
this
topic created by Nancy O., the past moderator of this group (may she rest in
peace). You could start your search by referencing the date(s) referenced in
the messages below. Please note, I only saved the messages which were of
interest to me, and if memory serves me correctly, there were a number of
interesting replies related to this topic.

A special thanks to all the members of AAHistoryLovers who originally
contributed the information compiled below.

Regards,
Jeff J
____________________
Emmanuel John <ejohn@jbbl.org> wrote:

While I've heard a lot about Bill having participated in LSD studies in
England
via the literature, I was wondering if anyone had any more information about
these studies, who conducted them? How long they ran? How much did Bill
actually
participate and what were his true rationales for doing so?

Peace and Happy Days
Emmanuel S. John, LCSW-C (20+)
____________________

COMPILATION OF RESPONSES TO BILL W's USE OF LSD:
____________________
From: WCompWdsUnl@aol.com
Date: Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:52 am
Subject: LSD use by AA members in AA History.

Dear AA History Lovers:

In "Pass It On," Bill Wilson's historical documentation of the actual
history of
the AA movement, from it's inception, Bill Wilson records an entire chapter,
Chapter 23; Anything that helps Alcoholics...Bill experiments with LSD but
eventually ceases when controversy stirs within AA. (This chapter describes
how
the pioneers of AA, used LSD, to wean or taper, chronic alcoholics to
sobriety.)
This is a phenomena similar to the modern day recovery of heroin addicts,
using
methadone. (Pages 368 - 378.)

Can anyone provide further information related to the history of the use of
LSD
by Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith, with Alcoholic's, in AA?

Larry W.
Atlanta, GA
____________________
From: "Alex H." <odat@utj.org>
Date: Tue Apr 20, 2004 9:13am
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] LSD use by AA members in AA History.
I suggest studying the context of the time in which these events occurred
....
LSD initially was looked upon as a beneficial drug. I am not sure how much
was
known at the time of its potential for abuse. That is what I mean by finding
out
about the context of the
time. How did normal folks look at LSD at the time?
Alex
____________________
From Arthur S:

Hi Larry

First off the book Pass It On is a biography not an autobiography --it's
about
Bill W not by Bill W. The primary author of Pass It On is Mel B who is also
a
member of AAHistoryLovers.

The functional comparison to methadone and heroin is a bit of a stretch. The
intent of the LSD experiments was to induce DTs. If anything, it would
likely
fall into the class of "aversion therapy." Also, there is no linkage of Dr
Bob
to LSD in Pass It On. There were postings in February on the topic under the
subject of "Humphrey Osmond." The response I sent in follows:

------ Feb response ------

There are a few other books that go in to the LSD experiments in more detail
than Not God. Mel, by the way, is the modest and primary author of Pass It
On
which covers the matter in some detail. Francis Hartigan's book Bill W and
Nell
Wing's book Glad to Have Been There offer information as well. The info
below is
a composite extract:

British radio commentator Gerald Heard introduced Bill W to Aldous Huxley
and to
the British psychiatrists Humphry Osmond and Abraham Hoffer (the founders of
orthomolecular psychiatry). Humphrey and Osmond were working with
schizophrenic
and alcoholic patients at a Canadian hospital.

Bill W joined with Heard and Huxley and first took LSD in California on Aug
29,
1956. It was medically supervised by psychiatrist Sidney Cohen of the Los
Angeles VA hospital. The LSD experiments occurred well prior to the "hippie
era." At the time, LSD was thought to have psychotherapeutic potential
(research
was also being funded by the National Institutes of Health and National
Academy
of Sciences).

The intent of Osmond and Hoffer was to induce an experience akin to delirium
tremens (DTs) in hopes that it might shock alcoholics from alcohol.

Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who accepted) were Nell
Wing,
Father Ed Dowling, (possibly) Sam Shoemaker and Lois Wilson. Marty M and
Helen W
(Bill's mistress) and other AA members participated in NY (under medical
supervision by a psychiatrist from Roosevelt Hospital).

Bill had several experiments with LSD up to 1959 (perhaps into the 1960's).
Pass
It On reports that there were repercussions within AA over these activities.
Lois was a reluctant participant and claimed to have had no response to the
chemical.

Hoffer and Osmond did research that later influenced Bill, in Dec 1966, to
enthusiastically embrace a campaign to promote vitamin B3 (niacin -
nicotinic
acid) therapy. It created Traditions issues within the Fellowship and caused
a
bit of an uproar.

The General Service Board report accepted by the 1967 Conference recommended
that "to insure separation of AA from non-AA matters by establishing a
procedure
whereby all inquiries pertaining to B-3 and niacin are referred directly to
an
office in Pleasantville, NY in order that Bill's personal interest in these
items not involve the Fellowship."

Please reference the following for more details:

Pass It On - pgs 368-376, 388-391
Not God - pgs 136-138
Bill W by Francis Hartigan - pgs 9, 177-179
Glad To Have Been There - pgs 81-82

Cheers
Arthur S
____________________
From Jared Lobdell:

The idea that Chapter 23 of PIO shows the use of LSD to "taper off"
alcoholics
from alcohol in a mode of operations "similar" to methadone for heroin users
does not tally with the chapter or with anything I know about Bill's use of
LSD
(or, indeed, with the present uses of methadone). The fact that methadone is
a
maintenance rather than a tapering-off program is not relevant here, but the
apparent inaccuracy on LSD is. It is true that LSD was considered by some as
a
possible amethystine in the earlier days of its development, but it is clear
from Chapter 23 (and the account in the not-now-Conference-approved book by
Thomsen) that what intrigued Bill was the possibility of tapping the
chemical
component of classical mystical experiences otherwise occurring through
prayer,
fasting, meditation, etc (see esp. p. 375) -- in order to aid in spiritual
sobriety (through ego-deflation etc.). Bill's general rule seems to have
been
that spiritual aids (including LSD) might be used, but anything that would
turn
AAs away from the spiritual path (valium = alcohol in a pill, for example)
should not. (Of course, improved physical condition could also be sought,
through Niacin etc.) -- Jared Lobdell

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++++Message 2556. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: LSD
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/22/2005 1:33:00 PM

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They were conducted with Drs. Hoffer and Osmond who discovered its
effects by accident in 1943. Leary was intentionally excluded. Aldous
Huxley was also part of them and a letter from Bill to him codifies
the name for the substance as acetachrome when asking if Huxley had
any. They ran for about 2 years. I have never seen anything stating
they were in England. Rationale for the experiments included the
possibility that it might induce a more rapid and profound spiritual
experience in a newcomer thus increasing the possibility of success.
Extent of participation is both relative and subjective precluding
response. The effects and dangers (most of which are greatly
exaggerated) were unknown to anyone at that time. Bill was openminded
to almost anything that could potentially help the alcoholic to whom
which AA could not help. The vitamin B-3 experiments were conducted
years later with the same two doctors for the same exact reasons.
While Hoffer/Osmond were interested in schizophrenics Bill's interest
was alcoholics.

The following is a link to Dr. Humphrey Osmond's Obituary which
alludes specifically to the experiments regarding the treatment of
alcoholics
with the dextro isomer of lysegic acid diethylamide - 25. They identify a
specific urinary factor "adrenochrome" which Bill spoke of in the letter to
Huxley [sic - acetochrome as the substance itself]. Drs. Abram Hoffer and
Humprey Osmond coined the term "Orthomolecular Psychiatry" which =
Megavitamin
Psychiatry. There is much posted on the net regarding their nicotinic acid
(niacin or B-3) experiments. Bill was directly involved with both sets of
experiments inasfar as they regarded alcoholism. If you choose to conduct
further research you might explore these two doctors work especially their
first
book.

http://www.maps.org/media/guardian022604.html

-merton

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Emmanuel John" <ejohn@j...>
wrote:
> While I've heard a lot about Bill having participated in LSD studies
in England via the literature, I was wondering if anyone had any more
information about these studies, who conducted them? How long they
ran? How much did Bill actually participate and what were his true
rationales for doing so?
>
> Peace and Happy Days
> Emmanuel S. John, LCSW-C (20+)

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++++Message 2557. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: LSD
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/22/2005 9:00:00 AM

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There is a link between Bill’s LSD experience and his niacin (vitamin
B3) experience.

In 1956 British radio commentator Gerald Heard introduced Bill W to
Aldous Huxley and British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and Abram
Hoffer (the founders of orthomolecular psychiatry). Humphrey and
Osmond were working with schizophrenic and alcoholic patients at a
Canadian hospital.

Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first took LSD in CA on August
29, 1956. Medically supervised by psychiatrist Sidney Cohen of the LA
VA hospital, the LSD experiments occurred well prior to the "hippie
era" of the late 1960’s.

At the time, LSD was thought to have psychotherapeutic potential
(research was also being funded by the National Institutes of Health
and National Academy of Sciences). The intent of Osmond and Hoffer was
to induce an experience similar to the DTs in hopes that it might
shock alcoholics away from alcohol.

Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who accepted) were
Nell Wing, Father Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker and Lois Wilson. Marty M
and other AA members participated in NY (under medical supervision by
a psychiatrist from Roosevelt Hospital).

Bill had several experiments with LSD up to 1959 (perhaps into the
early 1960's). The book “Pass It On” (pgs 368-377) reports the full
LSD story and notes that there were repercussions within AA over these
activities. Lois was a reluctant participant and claimed to have had
no response to the chemical.

Hoffer and Osmond did research that later influenced Bill, in December
1966, to enthusiastically embrace a campaign to promote vitamin B3
(niacin) therapy. It also created Traditions issues within the
Fellowship and caused a bit of an uproar. The book “Pass It On” has a
fairly full discussion (pgs 387-391).

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2558. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: The Forgotten Steps " Six
and Seven"
From: Gilbert Gamboa . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/21/2005 10:13:00 PM

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The reason why it might be so difficult to find reference to the 12 steps in
the
Oxford Group writings is because the 12 steps belonged to AA and not the
Oxford
Groups. At the begining they thought the AA`s were taking away numbers from
the
reformers'(Oxford)Groups......this caused some difficulty between Bill and
the
Oxford Groups as we all have read, and even the great Rev. Sam Shoemaker of
blessed memory stopped having Oxford Group meetings at his parish......it
was
clear that the Oxford Groups were trying to accomplish a lot more than what
the
AA`s could ever need and grow in strength.....thus the reason why we exist
and
the Oxford Groups don't........................Trust God,Clean House,and
Help
others

Gilbert Gamboa
________________________________
A NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR:
Actually Frank Buchman's organization continued to exist, although their
emphasis began to change. Already in V. C. Kitchen's book, I Was a Pagan,
which
came out in 1934, we can see that the Oxford Group people were interested in
using their principles to help bring about world peace and the resolution of
social conflicts.

In 1938, as part of an increasingly altered emphasis in this direction, they
changed the name of the organization to Moral Rearmament (MRA), and quickly
lost
most of their interest in the largely individualistic concerns of the early
Oxford Group.

Frank Buchman himself died in 1961, which also removed one major link
between
MRA and the early Oxford Group movement.

Very recently, they changed their name yet again, and the organization is
now
known as Initiatives of Change. It is still spread all over the world. They
have
numerous websites, including:
http://www.iofc.org/
http://www.us.initiativesofchange.org/
http://www.uk.initiativesofchange.org/
http://www.initiativesofchange.nl/

My impression from their literature is that they no longer have an
exclusively
Christian orientation or an exclusively evangelical orientation. It also
seems
clear that they are no longer interested in promoting the Oxford Group
literature which was written during the 1930s (the books and articles which
had
such a major influence on early AA).

Glenn Chesnut, Moderator

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++++Message 2559. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: The Forgotten Steps " Six
and Seven"
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/22/2005 2:36:00 PM

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The June 1952 Grapevine had an article titled “The Forgotten Steps.”
However, it focuses on Steps 8 and 9 as opposed to 6 and 7.

Prior to the Big Book, the recovery program consisted of 6 Steps
passed on to new members by word of mouth. 3 differing versions of the
6 Steps appear in AA literature: “The Language of the Heart” (pg 200)
“AA Comes of Age” (pg 160) “Pass It On” (pg 190) and Big Book
Pioneer
story “He Sold Himself Short” (pg 263 - 4th ed) The variations in
wording help illustrate the difficulties that can occur when something
is passed on solely by word-of-mouth.

The 12 Steps were drafted in December 1938 at 182 Clinton St (in about
30 minutes). The book “Pass It On” (pgs 198-199) estimates the
original form of Steps 6 and 7 drafted were: “6. Were entirely willing
that God remove all these defects of character and 7. Humbly on our
knees asked Him to remove these shortcomings – holding back nothing.”
Subsequent discussions on the wording of the 12 Steps was reputedly
quite heated.

Much of the Big Book had already been written when Bill drafted the 12
Steps (the manuscript went out for review the following month). The
late decision helps explain why there is so little Big Book narrative
for Steps 6 and 7 (2 paragraphs for Step 6 and 1 for Step7).

In regards to the Oxford Group influence on AA, core Oxford Group
principles consisted of the “4 absolutes” of honesty, unselfishness,
purity and love; the “5 C’s” of confidence, confession, conviction,
conversion and continuance; and the “5 procedures” of: 1) Give in to
God, 2) Listen to God’s direction, 3) Check guidance, 4) Restitution
(amends) and 5) Sharing for witness and confession. The Oxford Group
also strongly advocated one member working with another.

In “AA Comes of Age” (pg 39) Bill wrote “Early AA got its ideas of
self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for
harm done and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and
directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and from
nowhere else.”

Finally in regard to the use of the words "character defects" and
"shortcomings" in Steps 6 and 7, the information below is from the
final reports of the General Service Conferences of 1968 and 1977.

From the 1968 General Service Conference “Ask It Basket” - Question:
What is the difference between "Character Defects" and "Shortcomings"?
Answer: A Staff Member said that she asked this question of Bill some
years ago. Quite simply, he said he didn't want to use the same word
twice. He intended the two terms to mean the same thing.

From the 1977 General Service Conference “Ask It Basket” - Question:
Could we republish the quotation from Bill W concerning the
difference, or lack of difference, between "defects" and
"shortcomings" in the Steps? Answer: Some years ago, we received many
letters asking the difference between these terms. Bill said he did
not want to use the same word twice.

Cheers
Arthur

________________________________________
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mertonmm3
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 12:06 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Forgotten Steps " Six and Seven"

This may be of interest to you regarding steps 6 & 7. While
reading the fifty or so old Oxford Group books about a decade ago
looking for evidence of the steps I found that it was most difficult
to find reference to these two in particular without a quantum stetch
of imagination. Finally I found an Oxford Group article in a 1937
edition of Liberty that had wording very very similar to these two
steps. If you or anyone comes across this article please document
these short paragraphs.

Around the same time I was conducting research in the GSO archives.
They had just gotten a word search computer up loaded with many of
Bill's letters. This was quite high tech here and as calls came in
they could use the computers to see if anything specific was written.
One call came in asking if there was any difference between Bill's
intent regarding the words "defects of character" and "shortcomings"
in these two sister steps. As if by magic the computer revealed a
letter by Bill saying that the meaning was intended to be synonomous
and that the different words were merely semantic for literary flow.

-merton

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia" <pdixonrae@y...>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 9:49 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Forgotten Steps " Six and Seven"

I have been looking for my copy of the article on the Forgotten
Steps.I can't remember who wrote it for AA and Bill Wilson. I think it
was Fosdick. Can someone help point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Patricia D

________________________________________
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________________________________________

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++++Message 2560. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarace Williams Obituary (1975)
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2005 6:38:00 AM

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May 1975 AA Grapevine

Early Friend of AA Passes
Word has been received, belatedly of the death of Clarace Williams, of
Akron, Ohio, on August 9, 1975, at the age of 92. She and her husband, T.
Henry Williams (who died in 1967), were among the devoted non-alcoholics who
encouraged AA during its infancy.
Before Bill W. appeared on the Akron scene, the Williamses had tried to help
Dr. Bob. After the two alcoholics founded the Fellowship that was to be
called AA, the Williamses opened their home to meetings of the first group
in Akron.

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++++Message 2561. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s sponsor
From: Jim Burns . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2005 2:17:00 PM

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Greetings group,

Bill Wilson always considered Ebby T. his sponsor. This has been documented
thru
multiple sources.

My question is, did Dr. Bob consider Bill his sponsor? Please supply
references.

Thank you,
Jim
California

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++++Message 2562. . . . . . . . . . . . AA history study
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2005 11:48:00 AM

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________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR (passing along a request from Prof. Maria Swora):

Dr. Swora, who is a good researcher and a friend to the program, is involved
in
a research project which may be of interest to some of the members of our
web
group, so I am passing along a request from her.

She has focused her work on something which gives A.A. part of its unique
character, that is, the awareness among people in the fellowship that
creating
A.A. archives and establishing accurate historical accounts of A.A. history,
is
in fact a SPIRITUAL task which can help alcoholics in walking more surely
the
spiritual path which leads to serenity, sobriety, and greater
God-consciousness.
Bill W. himself was the one who first called this need to our attention, but
the
importance of what he said was recognized so widely among the membership,
all
the way down to the grassroots level, that all sorts of activities began to
spring up spontaneously within the fellowship.

I do not know of any other major spiritual movement in history which has
been so
deeply committed, so early in its development, to understanding and
preserving
its own history. The existence of the AAHistoryLovers web group is only one
example.

We in A.A. already intuitively know that learning about A.A. history is
something that is of vital importance, and that it helps us to grow
spiritually.
Dr. Swora's research may help us to gain a better understanding of why we
know
this, and why it helps us so much.

Glenn C., Moderator

________________________________

DR. SWORA'S LETTER:

Dear Friends,

I am an anthropologist who has been fascinated by AA for about 15 years now.
I
am very interested in why and how some AA members become interested in
researching and writing AA history. So, I have a small research project
going,
and I am looking for volunteers to answer some questions about their
interest
and activities in AA history.

If you are interested in sharing your thoughts, please email me at
maria_swora@yahoo.com [maria_swora at yahoo.com] I have a small informed
consent form you would need to read. Your anonymity and confidentiality are
assured.

Peace

Maria

Maria G. Swora, Ph.D. MPH, Department of Sociology

Benedictine College, Atchison, Kansas 66002

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2563. . . . . . . . . . . . The Akron Miracle (Bill W. audio
with Pictures)
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2005 6:32:00 AM

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Click on or go to the link below. Very cool. Good job Doug.

http://www.chanceforchange.com/index_files/meeting.wmv

This is another link to go to:

http://www.chanceforchange.com/index_files/beginning.wmv

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++++Message 2564. . . . . . . . . . . . Attachments to messages
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2005 1:39:00 PM

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Hi to everybody,

The Yahoo system, as it has been set up for the AAHistoryLovers, strips all
attachments from messages which are sent in, before the moderator even gets
to
look at them. It also will not post any attachments which are put on
messages.

So just for future reference, we need to put everything that we want people
to
see in the email message itself.

We CAN put a link to another web site in a message which is posted, so this
is
the best way to let people look at historical photographs or other things of
that sort.

Glenn Chesnut, Moderator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2565. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and LSD
From: Carolyn . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2005 11:15:00 AM

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There is a great article by Ernie Kurtz, "Drugs and the Spiritual: Bill W.
takes
LSD" in the book, The Collected Ernie Kurtz, p. 39.

______________________________________
ADDITIONAL NOTE from the moderator: it was Kurtz who published the first
public
account of these LSD experiments.

Dr. Kurz, whose book *Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous* was first
published in 1979, produced the first major history of the movement. Any
good
study of the history of AA in the 1980s and afterwards would have to include
a
long account of his contributions and his influence. *The Collected Ernie
Kurtz* which Carolyn refers to, would also be a "must read" for anyone who
wished to look at Ernie's ideas and his influence. His memories of his
experiences as a young Harvard doctoral student exploring the AA archives in
New
York, and interviewing key people like Mrs. Marty Mann, make a good story,
which
many of us wish he would put down in writing. (Ernie, hint, hint!)

(Some historical materials about the early days of the movement appeared in
*Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age* which came out in 1957, but *Dr. Bob and
the
Good Oldtimers* was not published until 1980, and Mel B.'s *Pass It On* did
not
appear until 1984. Mel would be another influential figure whose books and
articles would need to be looked at in an account of the development of AA
thought in the latter part of the twentieth century and the early part of
the
twenty-first century.)

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++++Message 2566. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Communications between Lois &
Rogers
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2005 5:17:00 PM

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Personal letters and records prior to 1937 are pricipally housed at
Stepping Stones. Lois diary would provide a method for you to clarify
dates if you can get access. I only read the diary from 1935 thru the
mid - 40's but as you know it formed the basis for the motorcycle
hobos book. It is with specific factual accounts who were present that
we are able to piece together the large puzzle. Something seemingly
unimportant to you could corraberate another known piece in the puzzle
as we only have Lois' diary to go on. Anything you could write down
that you remember from these youthful days may help someone 10, 100 or
1,000 years from now put something together. If you could place copies
in your local, Brown University's Accessible Archives, GSO and
Stepping Stone's you may be helping in a way that would be sincerly
appreciated.

-martin

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "morefromles2"
<morefromles2@y...> wrote:
> Does anyone know if there any letters in the archives between Lois
> and Rogers between 1930 and later? Rog lived with us in Manchester
> and in Wallingford, VT and he became a partner with my father in a
> woodworking mill in Arlington around 1935 (Date not clear). I was a
> child around 8-10 years old. When we lived in Wallingford Rog spent
> one Christmas in New York and returnd to us with presents after
> Christmas. Barbara and Cy visited us in Manchester around 1930-31.
> Dr Burnham also visted us. I met Ebby there also and was in his
> house. Ebby's family house was around the corner from the Burnham
> house. My mother went to High school with both Bill Wilson & Ebby
> at Burr & Burton there in Manchester. We all, includng Rog, spent
> a summer in the Burnham Camp on Lake Emerald, also. Rog had injured
> his foot at that time. The well known motorcycle which Lois and
> Bill used years earlier was stored in the barn at the Manchester
> house. My brother and I thought it was pretty neat. Although Bill
> and Lois visted the Manchester house when I lived there, my mother
> did not want us boys to see Bill because she knew of his drinking
> problem. I appreciate any information about communications between
> Rog and Lois. Thanks. Les Cole..... I'm a native Vermonter and
> knew East Dorset quite well. I am now living in Colorado Springs at
> Age 80. My regular E-Mail is elsietwo@m...

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++++Message 2567. . . . . . . . . . . . HANK P.''s FOUR STEP RENDITION
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2005 3:01:00 PM

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[This might be of interest. It is a transcript of a letter from Hank
to Bill apparently before the Steps were written. The source is my yet
unfinished manuscript "Black Sheep". It was transcribed directly from
the origional which was in Hank's very distinctive and familiar style.]

Any additons I made are always in brackets [].

[start]
One of the easiest and most talked about of things among us is a
religious experience. I believe that this is incomprehensible to most
people. Simple and meaning words to us - but meaningless to most of
the people that we are trying to get this over to.

" In my mind religious experience - religion - ect. should not be
brought in. We are actually irreligious - but we are trying to be
helpful - we have learned to be quiet - to be more truthful - to be
more honest - to try to be more unselfish - to make other fellows
troubles - our troubles - and by following four steps most of us have
a religious experience. The fellowship - the unselfishness appeals to us.

"I wonder if we are off the track.
"A very good merchandising procedure is to find out why people do not
buy our products - it is good reasoning to find out WHY - I am
fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing religious experience when
actually that is something that follows as a result of 1 - 2 - 3 - 4.

"In my mind the question is not particularly the strength of the
experience as much as the improvement over what we were. I would ask a
man to compare himself as follows after say a month –

" #1 - As compared to 2 months ago do you have more of a feeling that
there is a power greater than you [?]

" #2 - Have you cleaned out more completely with a human being than
ever before?

" #3 - Have you less bad things behind you than ever before [?]
" #4 - Have you been more honest with youself and your fellow man -
Have you been more honest with yourself and your fellow man - Have you
been more thoughtful of people with whom you are associated - Has your
life been cleaner both by thought & action - Have you looked at others
less critically and yourself more critically this last 30 days. You
will never be perfect but the question is have you been more perfect ?"

[stop]

[merton]

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++++Message 2568. . . . . . . . . . . . A 1962 letter from Ebby Thacher
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2005 1:44:00 PM

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http://home.insightbb.com/~rstonebraker212/

Dear Friends,

The letter included in the site above comes from a gentleman, Bill F., whom
I met at the recent Toronto Convention. He was with Ebby Thacher during his
last days at McPike’s Farm. Ebby died on March 21st, 1966. You will
notice Ebby’s handwriting at the bottom of his letter.

For a great bio of Ebby there is a book: “Ebby: The Man Who Sponsored Bill
W,” by Mel B.

As I understand it, Ebby came to McPike’s farm in May, 1964 till he died
in
March of 1966 and he was 2 ½ years sober at that time. This makes Ebby’s
last drink during the fall of 1963, I guess. This would be one year and
nine months after this January 1962 letter.

I feel as though I ‘know’ Ebby better after reading this letter and even
have a sample of his handwriting!

Bob Stonebraker
Archives, District 40, Area 23 – Richmond, IN.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2569. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant August Dates
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/31/2005 12:48:00 PM

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Significant August dates in AA history

Aug 1934 - Rowland H and Cebra persuade court to parole Ebby T. to
them.
Aug 1939 - Dr. Bob wrote & may have signed article for Faith
magazine.
Aug 1981 - Distribution of Alcoholics Anonymous passes 3 million.
Aug 1, 1943 - Washington Times-Herald (DC) reports on AA clubhouse,
to protect anonymity withholds address.
Aug 3, 1954 - Brinkley S. gets sober at Towns Hosp after 50th detox.
Aug 8, 1879 - Dr. Bob born in St. Johnsbury, VT.
Aug 9, 1943 - LA groups announce 1000 members in 11 groups.
Aug 11, 1938 - Akron & NY members begin writing stories for Big Book.
Aug 15, 1890 - E M Jellinek is born, author of "The Disease Concept
of Alcoholism" and the "Jellinek Curve".
Aug 16, 1939 - Dr Bob and Sister Ignatia admit 1st alcoholic to St
Thomas Hospital, Akron, Ohio.
Aug 18, 1988 - 1st Canadian National AA Convention in Halifax, Nova
Scotia.
Aug 19, 1941 - 1st AA Meeting in Colorado is held in Denver.
Aug 25, 1943 - AA group donates Big Book to public library in
Quincy,
MA.
Aug 26, 1941 - Bill writes Dr Bob to tell him Works Publishing has
been incorporated
Aug 28, 1954 - "24 Hours a Day" is published by Richmond W.

Also in August...

1st meeting in Orange County, California held in Anaheim - August,
1941

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++++Message 2570. . . . . . . . . . . . Gratitude and photographs
From: rationaldenial30 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2005 9:37:00 AM

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Dear Members,
My name is Deborah and I am an alcoholic in England. I was
researching AA history when I stumbled across AAHistoryLovers. I
can't begin to express my gratitude at finding such a gem. I've been
reading posted messages for hours now. I'm like a child let loose in
a sweetie shop.
I am very much an amateur researcher at present, purely by hobby. I
have recently collected photographs of AA history and members. I
would be so utterly grateful if people could find the time to forward
me any such photographs to enhance my collection. I assure you this
is for my own personal use and will be respected in lines with
traditions and anonymity etc. I can be contacted at
privatedeborah@hotmail.com or rationaldenial@ntlworld.com.
Since finding my new hobby, my sobriety (limited as it may be) has
been richly enhanced. I find it a fascinating tool in recovery and
look forward to stalking you all happily :)
Yours Enthusiastically,
Debbie

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++++Message 2571. . . . . . . . . . . . Thank you
From: Maria Swora . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2005 5:33:00 PM

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Dear Friends,

Thank you so much for your overwhelmingly positive response to my request.
I've
been trying, one day at a time, a few folks at a time, to acknowledge
people's
interest, send them the informed consent, and then acknowledge their
response to
me. Your anonymity will be protected by having you select a name for me to
use
for you in my files.

I can't tell you how excited and grateful I am. I've been doing so in
individual
emails, but I want to make sure people understand my gratitude, and that
this is
taking me some time. Almost an embarrassment of riches. I am blessed. I want
to honor everyone who wants to participate, at least with an acknowledgment.
What a great bunch of folks.

Any publication of the material will be dedicated to the fellowship, and
presented in memoriam to Nancy O. I never met her, and but in our few email
contacts I felt great warmth, support, and spirituality. She told me that
she
talks to God every day, and believed that He told her my work was
worthwhile. I
will never for get that.

Peace,
Maria

(And please, everyone, you are the experts, and I am the student. Call me
Maria!
I'd be flattered if you called me Maria S.!)

Maria G. Swora, Ph.D. MPH
Department of Sociology
Benedictine College
Atchison, Kansas 66002

Don't believe everything you think.

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++++Message 2572. . . . . . . . . . . . Frank Amos 7 Step Rendition
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2005 1:02:00 AM

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[In analyzing the origin of the Steps this also may be useful. Frank
Amos of the Rockerfeller foundation was sent to investigate the Akron
wing. The eastern wing had split from the OG in June 1937 but were not
yet named. The Akron wing met with the OG until November, 1939. This
is a portion of the Akron survey that Frank Amos presented dated
2-23-38. Again the source is Black Sheep. The source for that is
microfilm at GSO from which I transcribed it exactly. It is of
interest because it predated the original codification of the steps by
Bill.

It may have served as something of a blueprint for the steps and
demonstrates Akron influence (or homogeneity between the Akron and
eastern understanding of the process) in the multilith and final
versions. Comparison by other historians with source data I am not
aware of would be helpful.

The portion of the document presented here is contiuous and unedited.

alterations, if any, would be in brackets [] ]

[start}

[ . . . ]

They told me varying stories, many of them almost miraculous, but all
remarkably alike in the technique used and the system followed.

"Briefly this system is:
1. An alcoholic must realize that he is an alcoholic, incurable from a
medical viewpoint and that he must never again drink anything with
alcohol in it;

2. He must surrender himself absolutely to God realizing that in
himself there is no hope;

3. Not only must he want to stop drinking permanently, but he must
remove from his life other sins such as hatred, adultery and others
which frequently accompany alcoholism. Unless he will do this
absolutely, [Dr. Bob] and his associates refuse to work with him;

4. He must have devotions every morning, a 'quiet time' of prayer and
some reading from the Bible and other religious literature. Unless
this is faithfully followed there is grave danger of backsliding;

5. He must be willing to help other alcoholics get straightend out.
This throws up a protective barrier and stengthens his own willpower
and convictions;

6. It is important but not vital, that he meet frequently with other
reformed alcoholics and form a social and religious comradeship;

7. Important, but not vital, that he attend some religious service
at least weekly. . ."

[. . .]
[stop]

[-merton]

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++++Message 2573. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshop
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2005 2:46:00 PM

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September 22-25, 2005

10th Annual National Archives Workshop

in New Orleans, hosted by Area 27

"Preserving Our Past for Our Future"

Holiday Inn Select, 2929 Williams Blvd, Kenner, LA, located just off
Interstate
10, at the New Orleans International Airport (Kenner is a western suburb of
New
Orleans)

Website http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/

National Archives Workshop, P.O. Box 24444, New Orleans LA 70184-0444

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2574. . . . . . . . . . . . Traditions Checklist from AA
Grapevine
From: JOHN REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/2/2005 9:06:00 PM

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Dear All,

I have misplaced my electronic copy of the above, that our Group is
Workshopping
next week. Could someone please Email me a copy ASAP?
Thanks and Kind Regards, John R; johnyr1@iprimus.com.au

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2575. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Traditions Checklist from AA
Grapevine
From: Executive Editor . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2005 10:07:00 AM

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Hi, John,

The Checklist is available on the AA Grapevine website:
http://www.aagrapevine.org/stepsTrads/checklist.php

I am glad to posting it there is helpful!

Sincerely,

Robin B.
Executive editor, AA Grapevine, Inc.

> ----------
> From: JOHN REID
> Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2005 10:06 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Traditions Checklist from AA Grapevine
>
> Dear All,
>
> I have misplaced my electronic copy of the above, that our Group is
Workshopping next week. Could someone please Email me a copy ASAP?
> Thanks and Kind Regards, John R; johnyr1@iprimus.com.au
>
>

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++++Message 2576. . . . . . . . . . . . Audio preservation work GSO Archives
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/10/2005 10:11:00 AM

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A "Thank You" to AA History Lovers members. I reported to you in early July
about the discontinuation of audio preservation work at G. S. O. Archives.
(budget cuts) The response from archivists and concerned AA members was
admirable. The following is from A.A.W.S highlights July 28.2005.....

"The A. A. W. S. Finance Committee reviewed, and the board approved,
midyear 2005 Budget adjustments of $100,000 and a request from the trustees'
Archives Committee for $55,000 which is an additional, unbudgeted item to
cover
the cost of an emergency preservation project"

(This was sent to me by Eastern Pa. Delegate G. Gary L.)

The cost of audio preservation work is now covered for 2005 and our history
is
being preserved.

YIS,

Shakey Mike G. and Harry the Wino

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++++Message 2577. . . . . . . . . . . . Gamblers Anonymous, who founded it?
From: oicuradry12 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/10/2005 12:36:00 AM

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Who were the two founders of Gamblers Anonymous? The reasons why I asked
this
group was because 1) both guys were early A.A.'s, 2) Bill W. was often
called
the co-founder by one of them, and 3) you guys are the most well researched
folks I know ;)

Now, what I do know (or well, I think I know) is one guy is named Jim Willis
and
he also co-founded Overeaters Anonymous, and he was married to Sybil C. --
the
first woman to enter A.A. west of the Mississippi.

Now this is hearsay: the second founder was an early A.A.(one of the first
to
enter A.A. under the Jewish faith) but he relapsed on alcohol as soon as
they
founded G.A.

As always, any knowlege you can share will be most appreciated.

Forever in service,

Rockbottom Russ Chicago drunk
_________________________________

NOTE BY THE MODERATOR: I did an internet search myself and could not find
anything other than vague information stating that Gamblers Anonymous was
founded by two people, and when it was founded. So I know this is off of the
strict topic of AA history in one sense, but given the fact that stories are
circulating stating that certain known figures in AA history were involved
in
its founding, I think that it does pertain to AA history in that manner.

So does anyone know anything about Jim Willis, Sybil C., or the early Jewish
AA
member, simply as AA members, which might be relevant to this question?

Glenn C.

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++++Message 2578. . . . . . . . . . . . The "atheist" in the 12 & 12
From: dinobb3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/10/2005 7:11:00 AM

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In the 12/12 Bill mentions one time vice president of the American
Atheistic society. Who is this guy?

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++++Message 2579. . . . . . . . . . . . Wesley P, Pompano Beach FLA 33060
(Unity) Work Shop Group
From: JOHN REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2005 8:51:00 PM

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Is this Group still in existence?

Does anyone have an electronic copy of the notes for Workshops on Unity and
the
Traditions put together by Wesley P and the above mentioned Group (who also
put
the "original" Big Book Study Guides together)? As well as helping us get
the
Big Book Studies underway, and explaining the Traditions at the level of
I/me,
Wesley gave me a copy of Unity workshop notes when he stayed with us,
DownUnder
in Australia in 1978? But in this day and age an electronic copy would sure
assist our Group to disseminate and pass on relevant information.

Thanks and Kind Regards, John R

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2580. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gamblers Anonymous, who founded
it?
From: Dennis T. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2005 10:29:00 AM

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Clancy I., in some of his most recent talks, refers to Jim Willis as
the "Bill Wilson" of GA. Clancy says that Willis is highly revered
around that fellowship, although, according to Clancy, Willis got so
busy in GA he got away from AA and died drunk.

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++++Message 2581. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gamblers Anonymous, who founded
it?
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/13/2005 10:11:00 AM

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From my understanding there was only one founder of Overeaters
Anonymous - Rozanne S. (not sure of the spelling). During several
conversations I had with her she never mentioned a co-founder. She
did mention that a Gamblers Anonymous founder did have a lot of
influence on her and helped with her founding OA but he was not an OA
member and not considered a co-founder.

As to an early Jewish AA member, the only one I know of would be
Erwin (Irv) Meyerson who came out of Cleveland in the early 40s. Irv
helped start AA in West VA, Atlanta and other areas and was one of
the AA members who 12 Stepped Fr. Pfau (Fr. John Doe). Irv had a very
difficult time maintaining long periods of sobriety but had no
problems in starting AA in many places. I never heard anything about
Irv having a connection to GA.

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++++Message 2582. . . . . . . . . . . . Irwin Meyerson, and Gamblers
Anonymous?
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/13/2005 5:16:00 PM

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If there was a Jewish AA member who was a co-founder of Gamblers Anonymous,
could it have been Irwin Meyerson? Mitchell K. says that he has never heard
anything about that, and my first guess also would be that it was probably
not
him. However, Neil S. (Fishers, Indiana) tells us that Meyerson's >final
residence was on the West coast< and Gamblers Anonymous was founded in Los
Angeles, California, so we have to at least ask the question.

So for starters, does anyone know Meyerson's date of death? Gamblers
Anonymous
wasn't founded until 1957, so if Meyerson was already dead by then, that
leaves
him out as a possibility. Another big problem here is that by 1957 there
were
surely lots of Jewish members of AA.

But I would still like to know more about Meyerson's story, because he was
clearly an important figure in early AA history, regardless of whether he
had
anything to do with the founding of GA.

A correction on one thing that was said in Mitchell K.'s message. Meyerson
did
not twelve-step Father Ralph Pfau directly. Meyerson traveled to
Indianapolis in
the middle part of 1940 to call on an alcoholic there named Doherty Sheerin,
who
had asked for help. Meyerson took Dohr down to Evansville to put him in
contact
with James D. "J.D." Holmes (originally from Akron, the tenth person to get
sober in AA).

On April 23, 1940, J. D. Holmes and a physician named Dr. Joe Welborn (whom
he
had twelve-stepped) had started the first AA group in Indiana there in
Evansville.

Doherty Sheerin listened carefully to J. D. Holmes (and probably to Meyerson
too) and then started the first AA group in Indianapolis on October 28,
1940.
There is still an AA group in Indianapolis named in honor of Meyerson, whose
name was remembered with gratitude. J. D. (in Evansville) and Dohr (in
Indianapolis) then combined forces to do twelve-step work and found and
foster
early AA groups all over Indiana (in Huntington, Fort Wayne, Anderson,
etc.).

On November 10, 1943, Father Ralph Pfau, who was an assistant pastor at St.
Joan
of Arc’s in Indianapolis, after spending several days reading and
re-reading a
copy of the Big Book over and over, phoned Doherty Sheerin and asked for
help.
Ralph had stopped drinking (in a way that seemed strange and unexplainable
to
him at the time) as soon as he had started reading that copy of the Big
Book,
and never drank again. Dohr took Ralph to his first AA meeting, became his
sponsor, and Ralph rapidly got deeply involved in AA. Father Ralph is best
known
as the author of the Golden Books (writing under the pen name of Father John
Doe
to preserve his anonymity), and was one of the four most published early AA
authors.

So the sequence is Meyerson (traveling from Cleveland) made a twelve-step
call
on Doherty Sheerin (in Indianapolis) who three years later made the
twelve-step
call on Father Ralph Pfau (in Indianapolis).

Neil S. (from Fishers, Indiana, a suburb of Indianapolis) has done some
excellent research on Dohr and Meyerson. Let me just quote from what Neil
says:

>The central figure in early Cleveland A.A. was Clarence Snyder, the "Home
Brewmeister" in the story in the Big Book (pp. 297-303 in the 3rd edition).
He
was the dynamo who pioneered the printed word -- pamphlets, advertisements
and
newspaper articles. Irving Meyerson was one of Clarence Snyder's train of
"pigeons" or sponcees.<

>Dohr Sheerin's niece Laura ... said that her Uncle Dohr contacted Cleveland
directly in response to one of the Home Brewmeister's advertisements.<

Father Ralph in his autobiography says that Meyerson visited Doherty Sheerin
while Dohr and his family were having a picnic outside, and Meyerson asked
Dohr,
"Are you an alcoholic?" Dohr answered, "I'm not sure." Meyerson said, "Well,
you
are or you aren't," and made it clear that he was not going to spend any
more
time there if Dohr was still debating over that issue.

One interesting background part of this story is that, with the newspaper
ads
Clarence was paying for, and the size to which the Cleveland AA group was
growing, Cleveland for a while seemed to be eclipsing New York as the major
American AA center, and Meyerson as "AA missionary" was one of Clarence's
key
people in spreading Cleveland's influence to other parts of the United
States.
So this is part of a larger story, concerning an interesting part of early
AA
history.

Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (p. 259) says:

>One of the most famous early itinerants out of Cleveland was Irwin M., who
sold
venetian blinds to department stores in the Deep South. "Irwin weighed 250
pounds and had energy and gusto," Bill Wilson wrote, noting that "the
prospect
of Irwin as a missionary scared us rather badly."<

>Still, in his territory there was a long list of prospects, which was
reluctantly given to him even though he had "broken all the rules of caution
and
discreet approach to newcomers." He ran each and every one of them down,
working
day and night. In addition, he wrote them letters, and got them writing each
other. "He cracked the territory wide open," wrote Bill, "and started or
stimulated many an original group."<

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

Additional note: J. D. Holmes spelled Meyerson's first name as "Irvin," and
Neil
S. spells his name "Irving." Mitchell K. spells his first name as "Erwin,"
and
says that he was nicknamed "Irv." Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers spells his
name
Irwin. Does anybody in the AAHistoryLovers know if there was a newspaper
obituary for Meyerson at the time of his death? Also, could someone from the
Cleveland area check the Cleveland City Directories in the city's public
library, and look at the City Directory for 1940, to see how Myerson's name
is
spelled there? The City Directory might also give us some additional
information
about the man.

THE OFFICIAL GAMBLERS ANONYMOUS HISTORY OF THEIR FOUNDING:

>The fellowship of Gamblers Anonymous is the outgrowth of a chance meeting
between two men during the month of January in 1957. These men had a truly
baffling history of trouble and misery due to an obsession to gamble. They
began
to meet regularly and as the months passed neither had returned to
gambling.<

>They concluded from their discussions that in order to prevent a relapse it
was
necessary to bring about certain character changes within themselves. In
order
to accomplish this, they used for a guide certain spiritual principles which
had
been utilized by thousands of people who were recovering from other
compulsive
addictions. The word spiritual can be said to describe those characteristics
of
the human mind that represent the highest and finest qualities such as
kindness,
generosity, honesty and humility. Also, in order to maintain their own
abstinence they felt that it was vitally important that they carry the
message
of hope to other compulsive gamblers.<

>As a result of favorable publicity by a prominent newspaper columnist and
TV
commentator, the first group meeting of Gamblers Anonymous was held on
Friday,
September 13, 1957, in Los Angeles, California. Since that time, the
fellowship
has grown steadily and groups are flourishing throughout the world.<

SOURCES:

http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/history.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nindy2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nindy1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html

http://hindsfoot.org/pflou3.html

Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers p. 259.

Father John Doe [Ralph Pfau] and Al Hirshberg, Prodigal Shepherd.

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++++Message 2583. . . . . . . . . . . . The tough Irishman
From: oicuradry12 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/10/2005 12:42:00 AM

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Good day historians!

Me and my group have a question, just who was the guy mentioned in the
12&12,
pg. 151, a patient at Towns Hospital? He was described by Dr. Silkworth as:

"But he's an awfully tough Irishman."

I am truly grateful for whatever knowlege you may share.

As always forever in your service,
Rockbottom Russ -- Chicago drunk

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++++Message 2584. . . . . . . . . . . . Physician prominent in New York
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/14/2005 3:17:00 PM

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Who was the physician prominent in New York in Fitz Mayo's story?

A QUESTION SENT IN BY Rockbottom Russ = "oicuradry12"
<oicuradry12@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Aug 10, 2005 0:42am )

In the Big Book, " The doctors' opinion" 4th edition, pg xxxi, what was the
name
of the "physician prominent in New York" that brought Fitz Mayo in to see
the
good doctor Silky?

I am truly grateful for whatever knowlege you may share.

As always forever in your service,

Rockbottom Russ -- Chicago drunk

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++++Message 2585. . . . . . . . . . . . Validity of a possible statement by
Bill
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/13/2005 10:07:00 PM

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I read an account of a statement allegedly made by Bill shortly before
he passed away. I don't remember where. It stated roughly that when
asked about his most significant contribution to mankind his response
was the Vitamin B-3 research towards helping alcoholics. If anyone can
affirm, deny, debunk and/or provide the source of material for this it
would be most appreciated. Anyone reading this should not use the
statement as true unless and until verified.

Thank you,
-merton

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++++Message 2586. . . . . . . . . . . . Open and closed meetings
From: plugar38@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/13/2005 8:17:00 PM

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Hi All,

I'm wondering if anyone knows the history behind the two meeting
designations
(open meetings and closed meetings).

When did it start and why?

pam,
an alkie in TX

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++++Message 2587. . . . . . . . . . . . Why hold hands to close a meeting?
From: bcollins1960 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/14/2005 8:35:00 AM

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About the present practice of holding hands in the meetings at the close. I
would like to know when and why was this started.
r/
Brenda

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++++Message 2588. . . . . . . . . . . . Movies on Alcoholism with Reviews
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2005 12:07:00 PM

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Movies on Alcoholism with Reviews

Assembled by BILLY K. <billyk3@yahoo.com>

(with a few additions by Glenn C.)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Days of Wine and Roses

1962

Starring Jack Lemmon, Lee Remick and Jack Klugman.

Days of Wine and Roses is one film not to watch if you are melancholic by
nature, as this tale of middle-class alcoholism rings very true. Jack Lemmon
and
Lee Remick are the besotted couple who find that life is not always fun when
viewed through rosé-colored glasses. He's the San Francisco business
executive
who marries Remick and seduces her into a cocktail culture that soon
overpowers
them both. It is not a pretty picture when their life shatters around them,
but
this film is extremely compelling for their performances. It is matched only
by
Billy Wilder's Lost Weekend and the more explicit Leaving Las Vegas. This
was
nominated for five Academy Awards and won for the title song by Henry
Mancini
and Johnny Mercer. Filmed by Blake Edwards in 1962, it is based on a
Playhouse
90 television production from 1958, starring Cliff Robertson and Piper
Laurie.

Jack Lemmon and Lee Remick are unforgettable -- and the title tune wins an
Oscar(R) in Blake Edwards' searing, bittersweet study of an alcoholic couple
on
the rocks. Jack Klugman plays the AA.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Drunks

1997

Starring Richard Lewis and Faye Dunaway

Who knew comedian Richard Lewis could act? There is no plot to speak of in
this
character study, which follows AA members who meet in a Times Square
basement to
bare their souls. The performances, however, are dazzling. A sparse plot
follows
Lewis through one dark, soul-searching night in which he questions his life,
his
choices, and his sobriety. The direction is minimal, but Faye Dunaway,
Spalding
Gray, Parker Posey, Amanda Plummer, Dianne Wiest, and Howard Rollins bring
out
the intense emotions and dark, bitter humor of Gary Lennon's play, Blackout.
We
could have used more time with all of them, however, as the only fully
realized
character is played by Lewis.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Great Santini

1979

Starring Robert Duvall

Bull Meechum (Robert Duvall) loves fighting almost as much as he loves the
Marine Corps. Profane, cocky, and arrogant, he's a great fighter pilot --
and he
knows it. His boss hates his guts, but knows that if he's going to
straighten
out his lagging squadron, Meechum is the man to do it. The story and irony
of
The Great Santini is in Meechum's total intolerance of family life and
fatherhood. Meechum has a lovely, supportive wife, Lillian (Blythe Danner),
an
earnest, likeable son, Ben (Michael O'Keefe), three smaller children, and a
good
home, but Meechum finds the pastoral nature of peacetime totally
incompatible
with his gung-ho nature. So he begins to drink. He drills his family
unmercifully, like recruits. He hammers his son relentlessly until, in a
basketball game, his son fights back, and the family cheers Ben's efforts.
Tension builds in the household until, during one drunken night, Meechum
breaks
down. Based on a best-selling novel by Pat Conroy, The Great Santini earned
critical raves but fared poorly at the box office. Duvall's performance as
Meechum is generally regarded as one of his greatest. ~ Nick Sambides, Jr.,
All
Movie Guide

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Harvey

1950

Starring Jimmy Stewart, Josephine Hull

This excellent lighthearted film was adapted from the Pulitzer Prize winning
hit
play written by Mary Chase. Josephine Hull won a best supporting actress
Oscar
for her portrayal of Elwood P. Dowd's long suffering sister Veta Louise
Simmons.
James Stewart, who plays Dowd, was nominated for best actor in this 1950
film
but lost out to Jose Ferrer in Cyrano de Bergerac.

Elwood P. Dowd is a friendly, likeable drunk who has a best friend named
Harvey,
a six foot three and a half inch invisible white rabbit. This movie was made
back in the days when alcoholics could be likeable .... People have written
disputing that Elwood P. Dowd is a drunk because you never see him take a
drink
during the movie. While it is true that you don't see him taking a drink in
movie, you have to assume that he orders all those martinis for some reason.
You
also have to assume that he hides bottles in his bookcase at home for some
reason, too.

Harvey is a pooka, which is described in the movie as, "From old Celtic
mythology, a fairy spirit in animal form, always very large. The pooka
appears
here and there, now and then, to this one and that one. A benign but
mischievous
creature very fond of rumpots, crackpots, and...."

Jesse White does a good job portraying Marvin Wilson, the psychiatric
orderly
who totally mistrusts Elwood P. Dowd and isn't fond of him as the other
characters in the movie seem to be. Veta Simmons' daughter, Myrtle May
Simmons,
is played by Victoria Horne. She is frustrated in her attempts to meet
eligible
gentlemen and blames her lack of suitable callers on Elwood and his large
rabbit. She meets her soul mate in the form of Marvin Wilson, however.
Elwood P.
Dowd tries, all through the movie, to introduce Harvey to everyone he meets
but
the only one who eventually sees him is Dr. Chumley, the psychiatrist.
Dowd's
sister Veta sometimes acknowledges the existence of Harvey but only when
she's
under extreme stress.

Some people may say that this movie is dated and out of touch with today's
reality but maybe that's what gives it its charm.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I’ll Cry Tomorrow

1955

Starring Susan Hayward, Richard Conte

"I'll Cry Tomorrow" is a biopic about Lillian Roth (played in adulthood by
Susan
Hayward), a singer pushed to child stardom by her relentless stage mother
and
plunged into alcoholism after becoming a "big star" as an adult. It's fairly
effective in spite of Susan Hayward's histrionics and deliciously enjoyable
because of them.

Hayward is rather an anomaly. She has a Dresden doll pretty face yet this
gruff
voice (reminiscent of Barbara Stanwyck, a fellow Brooklynite) and somewhat
tough-girl-from -the-wrong-side-of-the-tracks behavior. She also has a
tendency
to overdo the emoting like nobody's business, alternately widening eyes or
squinting, tossing her head. Her artificiality is reminiscent almost of
silent
screen acting like Garbo was famous for, except that Garbo's style was
appropriate for the silent era and Hayward is in a whole other era where it
just
looks odd.

When she sneers, "Ah, shaddap" at one point in the worst imitation of a gun
moll, I gave in and started laughing. Then I really began to enjoy her. I
thought that if she's this over the top in the beginning, she'll be
deliciously
off the charts in the second half when her character's alcoholism
progresses.
Surprisingly, she actually got really good in the later half where the
excessive
emoting works. It then became a wrenching and sometimes even chilling
portrait
of alcoholism.

As for the singing -- first, what's with that Egyptian cakewalk
choreography?
Fingers splayed, elbows up, walking grapevine step. In the right key, as
with
the song "Happiness is a Thing Called Joe," she isn't bad but in some of
those
opening numbers that require lots of belting and chord changes -- the flat
notes
can jar. Unlike Judy Garland who could sing and act and do both amazingly,
Hayward is flirting on the side of bad taste. But ultimately that's part of
her
appeal. She's perfect for tawdry melodrama and great fun to watch. She
really
does give it her all, camp tendencies notwithstanding. Life piles it on and
she
perseveres.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lady Sings the Blues

1972

Starring Diana Ross and Billie Dee Williams

The most influential, creative, and emotional blues singer from the 1930s to
the
early 1950s, Billie Holiday may have attracted a whole new generation of
fans
through this 1972 film biography. Though the film is not historically
accurate
about her life and her relationship with Louis McKay (played by Billie Dee
Williams), it is effective in demonstrating the traumas of her early life,
the
color bar which prevented her from singing in many whites-only venues, her
drug
and alcohol addictions (which eventually led to her death at age forty-four
of
liver and heart disease), and the events which led to many of her most
famous
songs.

Diana Ross, as Billie, is passionate and driven, and her portrayal of Billie
in
the midst of drug withdrawal is heart-rending and effective. Playing the
role
"full out," Ross deals with the script she has been given, and she richly
deserves her Golden Globe Award for Most Promising Female Newcomer in this
screen debut. A consortium of scriptwriters, which drew on the frank, but
partly
fictionalized, autobiography Billie wrote with William Dufty in 1956, has
omitted or changed many aspects of her life in order to make the film more
unified and dramatic, creating a film that creates even more myths about
Billie.

Billy Dee Williams is terrific as Louis McKay, appearing slick and smooth at
the
beginning, but showing subtle changes of feeling as he is drawn into
Billie's
orbit and provides some stability for her. The accompanist (Richard Pryor)
seems
genuinely to care for her, as, it seems, does Reg Hanley (James T.
Callahan),
though the reasons Harry Bradford (Paul Hampton) has for getting her hooked
on
drugs is not clear. Ross is surprisingly good when she sings Billie's songs,
copying her phrasing and creating a sound that somewhat resembles hers,
though
Billie's gutsy heart is missing.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Leaving Las Vegas

1995

Starring Nicolas Cage and Elisabeth Sue

One of the most critically acclaimed films of 1995, this wrenchingly sad but
extraordinarily moving drama provides an authentic, superbly acted portrait
of
two people whose lives intersect just as they've reached their lowest depths
of
despair. Ben (Nicolas Cage, in an Oscar-winning performance) is a former
movie
executive who's lost his wife and family in a sea of alcoholic
self-destruction.
He's come to Las Vegas literally to drink himself to death, and that's when
he
meets Sera (Elisabeth Shue), a prostitute who falls in love with him -- and
he
with her -- despite their mutual dead-end existence. They accept each other
as
they are, with no attempts by one to change the other, and this
unconditional
love turns Leaving Las Vegas into a somber yet quietly beautiful love story.
Earning Oscar nominations for Best Director (Mike Figgis), Best Adapted
Screenplay (Figgis, from John O'Brien's novel) and Best Actress (Shue), the
film
may strike some as relentlessly bleak and glacially paced, but attentive
viewers
will readily discover the richness of these tragic characters and the
exceptional performances that bring them to life. (In a sad echo of his own
fiction, novelist John O'Brien committed suicide while this film was in
production.)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lost Weekend

1945

Starring Ray Milland and Jane Wyman

"I'm not a drinker -- I'm a drunk." These words, and the serious message
behind
them, were still potent enough in 1945 to shock audiences flocking to The
Lost
Weekend. The speaker is Don Birnam (Ray Milland), a handsome, talented,
articulate alcoholic. The writing team of producer Charles Brackett and
director
Billy Wilder pull no punches in their depiction of Birnam's massive weekend
bender, a tailspin that finds him reeling from his favorite watering hole to
Bellevue Hospital. Location shooting in New York helps the street-level
atmosphere, especially a sequence in which Birnam, a budding writer, tries
to
hock his typewriter for booze money. He desperately staggers past shuttered
storefronts -- it's Yom Kippur, and the pawnshops are closed. Milland,
previously known as a lightweight leading man (he'd starred in Wilder's
hilarious The Major and the Minor three years earlier), burrows convincingly
under the skin of the character, whether waxing poetic about the escape of
drinking or screaming his lungs out in the D.T.'s sequence. Wilder, having
just
made the ultra-noir Double Indemnity, brought a new kind of frankness and
darkness to Hollywood's treatment of a social problem. At first the film may
have seemed too bold; Paramount Pictures nearly killed the release of the
picture after it tested poorly with preview audiences. But once in release,
The
Lost Weekend became a substantial hit, and won four Oscars: for picture,
director, screenplay, and actor.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My Name is Bill W.

1989

Starring James Woods, Jo Beth Williams, James Garner and Gary Sinese

Based on facts, and faithful to them, it deals with the founder of
Alcoholics
Anonymous. It begins in 1935. Bill Wilson (James Woods) is a successful
stockbroker whose personal and professional lives are on the rocks because
of
excessive, compulsive drinking. Lois, his loving, gutsy wife has to get a
job,
in a department store. She is played by JoBeth Williams, one of my favorite
actresses who is also good-looking in a special, very distinctive way.
Bill’s
best friend Ebby (Gary Sinise) witnesses helplessly his buddy’s descent to
a
sort of Hades. James Woods, one of our best thespians, gives here another
bravura performance, and as usual it is quite convincing. When he goes over
the
top which is a specialty of his -- he is entirely credible.

The story covers a longish period of time. Things are as gloomy and hopeless
as
can be. To make matters worse, Bill is often hospitalized after accidents.
Eventually he contacts Robert Holbrook Smith, aka Dr. Bob. The latter is an
intelligent, warm physician who is himself an alcoholic. Bill and Bob become
friends and after a number of steps, the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Often, TV films have economic production values, but here they are just like
those of "legit" movies. The entire cast is excellent. This powerful
docudrama
received a host of nominations for awards, with Woods getting an Emmy.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My Name is Kate

1994

Starring Donna Mills, Daniel J. Travanti and Nia Peeples

A suburban wife, mother and businesswoman is forced to undergo treatment for
alcoholism after family and friends threaten to desert her. While at a
rehabilitation center, she confronts her addiction with the help of a
diverse
group and begins the long road back to recovering her life.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On the Nickle

1980

Starring Donald Moffat and Ralph Waite

"On The Nickle" is a thoroughly forgotten film about skid row high jinks in
Los
Angeles. It is directed by Ralph Waite who also plays a part in this 1980
movie.

It is a film which I was lucky enough to tape from the "Z Channel" (now
defunct)
in Los Angeles many years ago. The brainchild of actor Ralph Waite (of
Waltons),
it was independently made on a very low budget. In it, Waite manages to
balance
the tragedy of skid-row life with humor and irony, and in spite of an easy,
Fellini-esque ending, tells a moving story of a man (Donald Moffat) a former
alcoholic and skid row dweller, struggling to "put his demons to rest" as he
searches the "Nickle" (Fifth Street) for his old pal, C.G., played by Ralph
Waite. The movie is bookended by the Tom Waits song, "On The Nickle",
presumably
written for the movie, and has a score that quotes the song frequently.
Maybe
the Independent Film Channel will consider running it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sarah T. -- Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic

2003

Starring Linda Blair and Steve Benedict

Fresh from her success in The Exorcist (and several years away from her
tenure
as queen of the women in prison flicks), Linda Blair stars in this searing
TV
movie. Sarah (Blair), a normal teenaged girl, begins drinking socially at
high
school parties. She soon finds that she can't stop -- and even worse, she
can't
keep her boozing a secret. After a near-tragic baby-sitting episode, Sarah
decides to attend Alcoholics Anonymous, but soon she's back on the hard
stuff.
Only when Sarah causes the death of a horse does she strengthen her resolve
to
remain "clean and sober."

"Sarah T: Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic" tempers the more sensational
aspects
of the subject matter with some unforgettably poignant vignettes --
including
the A.A. testimony of a boy who's even younger than Sarah.

~ Hal Erickson, All Movie Guide

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Shakes the Clown

1992

Starring Bobcat Goldthwait, Julie Brown, Bruce Baum

Bobcat is Shakes the Clown; an alcoholic party clown that doesn't know how
to
turn his life around. He hangs out in a dumpy clown-bar ("The Twisted
Balloon"),
and vainly wishes he could be a television clown. All he needs is one big
break,
but he's generally too drunk to do what's best for himself, like practice
his
juggling and regular pie-throwing target practice. Binky the clown is his
arch
nemesis; Binky is the suburban party-clown that is used to things going his
way.
Binky is also busy pushing dope he buys from the more rowdy Rodeo Clowns.
Shakes
ends up in the wrong place during a bad drug deal and gets framed for
killing a
leader of the clown community with a juggling pin. That's the basic plot and
you
know by now whether you will enjoy the movie or not. In my opinion it's
absolutely brilliant and, even though crude at times, makes for an
interesting
look at the different factions within society and how we behave towards
people
from different backgrounds. It's not a cutesy morale-building movie, but
it's
message is thinly cloaked with hilarious dialogue and humor.

Of course it's raw, of course it's crude, but that's the POINT!
Clowns are supposed to be happy, smiling icons of goodness. These clowns are
NOT! That's what makes "Shakes the Clown" work. Other than a few minutes of
boring "filler" scenes, the entire movie makes you laugh, whether you feel
guilty about it or not! And it doesn't even need Robin Williams, although
that's
a nice surprise. Any movie that opens with Florence Henderson's make-up
smeared
face after a one night stand with a drunken clown HAS to be great.

AND

This black comedy chronicles the fall of one of the world's most unlovable
clowns as he plies his trade and tries to survive in Palukaville a town
where
everyone is more or less a Bozo. Shakes loves women and more than that, he
loves
his booze. Like many of his painted peers, ol' Shakes likes to hang out at
The
Twisted Balloon, the favorite local pub where he hoists a few, beats up on
mimes
(the lowest caste in Palukaville) and causes trouble with his girl friend
Judy,
a woman who cannot say the letter "L." Because the slovenly Shakes can't
seem to
make it to birthday parties sober and on time, he is fired from his booking
agency, causing him to go on a big drinking binge. Later, Shakes awakens and
learns that Binky, a lousy TV clown, is framing him for beating up Shake's
former boss with a juggling pin. Now poor Shakes must clear his name. He
must
also rescue "Juwee" who has been kidnapped by the nefarious Binky, and he
must
come to grips with his alcohol problem (perhaps the film could be therefore
titled "Clown and Sober?"). Keep an eye peeled for cameos by Robin Williams,
as
a mime instructor, and Florence Henderson as one of Shake's illicit sexual
conquests. ~ Sandra Brennan, All Movie Guide

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Shattered Spirits

1986

Starring Martin Sheen and Melinda Dillion

This film was first shown on TV at the boomtime of recovery when Betty Ford
was
pushing for recovery for families affected by addiction. The story portrays
a
middle class family hiding dad's (Sheen's) alcoholism and sliding down the
slope
of denial. The reactions of the family to crises and the roles they each
fall
into are so accurately done that the viewer can get way into his/her own
alcoholic upbringing and pain before they are aware of it.

I have shown this at several gatherings and it never fails to shake some
people
up seriously. Kids are especially vulnerable in their teen years. But entire
families can get very agitated during the viewing. So I would recommend that
anyone showing or viewing this film be prepared to deal with some extreme
reactions for several days afterwards. Don't just show this and send your
guests
home. Instead have a discussion and a followup trip to a meeting of Alateen,
Al-Anon or AA.

AND

Martin Sheen stars as an alcoholic father, while M.I.F. Hall-of-Famer
Melinda
Dillon desperately tries to hold the family together in the wake of dad's
inebriated rampages. The film is pretty good (if vaguely TV-movie-ish),
particularly when Martin Sheen tells his son that he's going into a bar to
meet
a buddy, and comes out six hours later! Was the "buddy" named Jack Daniels?
However, I did resent watching the movie a bit -- I sat next to the class
cutie,
and we'd struck up a nice little in-class friendship. So for three days, the
lights were off and we weren't allowed to talk. Thanks a lot! Even so, it
definitely opened up an important discussion about alcoholism. I have a
weakness
for Newcastle Brown Ale, but I try to remember the lesson in moderation that
Martin Sheen taught me.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Smash Up

1947

Starring Susan Hayward and Lee Bowman

"Smash Up" is a tear jerker that offered Susan Hayward her first staring
role as
Angela Evans. Angela has a promising career as a singer ahead of her when
she
tosses it all away for domestic bliss with up-and-coming singer husband, Ken
Conway (Lee Bowman). Everything is perfect at first, but then when Ken hits
the
big time, Angela's deep insecurities emerge, and soon Angela plummets into a
serious drinking problem. Ken professes amazement and then annoyance with
Angela's behavior -- after all, he reasons, she has everything a woman can
want.
Then the marriage hits the rocks, and Angela hits the bottle even more than
before ....

Eddie Albert plays Steve Nelson, Ken's accompanist and partner. Steve is the
steady bachelor who can see the error of Ken's remote and disaffected ways.
Marsha Grey (Marsha Hunt) plays a conniving woman who wants Ken for herself.

The film is corny in parts, and the relentless playing of the theme grates
on
one's nerves, but this is Susan Hayward's film. She delivers a stunning
performance as the needy Angela, whose decline begins with her husband's
success. Some of the scenes called for her to be drunk, or to get drunk, and
she
performed excellently. Not everyone can pull off the role of a drunk, but
there
were some scenes when it wasn't quite clear, at first, whether or not Angela
was
tipsy -- she didn't overdo it once. If you want to watch a 40s tear jerker,
watch this.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Stuart Saves His Family

1995

Starring Al Franken, Laura San Giacomo

Though it seems like a one-joke premise, this spinoff of Al Franken's
Saturday
Night Live character, self-help nerd Stuart Smalley, actually has some
substance. And, in fact, it offers a message that wouldn't be out of place
at an
Al-Anon meeting (although with the laughs). Stuart, fired from his cable TV
self-help show, goes home to resolve a family crisis. Dad (Harris Yulin) is
an
abusive drunk, Mom (Shirley Knight) is an enabler, Sis is an over-eater, and
Brother has a problem with his temper. The film turns serious, but Franken
actually makes the drama interesting, using humor to leaven it. And he
brings a
certain sympathy and resolve to the lisping, cross-eyed Stuart. To be sure,
it's
not your typical SNL movie.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

28 Days

2000

Starring Sandra Bullock, Dominic West

To appreciate 28 Days, it's best to be thankful that director Betty Thomas
hasn't forced Sandra Bullock into a remake of Clean and Sober. Instead
Thomas
has balanced her comedic sensibility (evident in Dr. Dolittle and Private
Parts)
with the seriousness of alcoholism and substance abuse, and she succeeds
without
compromising the gravity of the subject matter. Some critics have scoffed at
the
movie's breezy, formulaic portrait of 27-year-old boozer and pill-popper
Gwen
Cummings (Bullock), but this smooth-running star vehicle does for Bullock
what
Erin Brockovich did for Julia Roberts, focusing her appeal in a substantial
role
without taxing the limits of her talent. It's no wonder that Susannah Grant
(who
wrote both films) was one of the hottest new screenwriters of 1999. She
writes
"Hollywood Lite" without insulting anyone's intelligence.

As played by Bullock, Gwen is an alcoholic in denial whose latest bender
with
boozer boyfriend Jasper (Dominic West) ruins the wedding of her sister
(Elizabeth Perkins) and lands her in a month-long rehab program with the
requisite gang of struggling drunks and junkies. Newcomer Alan Tudyk steals
his
scenes as a gay German rehabber who might've dropped in from a Berlin
performance-art exhibit, and Steve Buscemi aptly conveys the weary
commitment of
a counselor who's seen it all. Thomas has surrounded Bullock with a sharp
ensemble, and the addition of singer-songwriter Loudon Wainwright III (as a
kind
of Greek chorus crooner) is sublimely inspired.

Certainly no surprises here -- the warring sisters will reconcile, and at
least
one rehabber will fail to recover -- but there's ample pleasure to be found
in
Bullock's finely tuned performance, and in Thomas's inclusion of flashbacks
and
tangents that add depth and laughter in just the right dosage.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Under The Volcano

1984

Starring Albert Finney and Jacqueline Bisset

Spying this title on a store shelf, one would hope that the mesmerizing
Albert
Finney, who appeared in John Houston's 1984 film version, had done the
narration
honors. Who else could muster and sustain the sweaty, poetic intensity
befitting
this extraordinary, beautifully written, teeth-gnashing novel? Set in Mexico
on
the eve of WWII, the story tells of a man in extremis, an alcoholic consul
bursting with regret, longing, resentment and remorse, whose climactic
moment
rapidly approaches. Nick Ullett is no Finney, but he comes satisfyingly
close.
His energy fails him at times; he has difficulty negotiating some of the
straggling phrases, but, otherwise, he acquits himself with distinction,
particularly in conveying the subtext and atmosphere.

AND

Against a background of war breaking out in Europe and the Mexican fiesta
Day of
Death, we are taken through one day in the life of Geoffrey Firmin, a
British
consul living in alcoholic disrepair and obscurity in a small southern
Mexican
town in 1939. The Consul's self-destructive behavior, perhaps a metaphor for
a
menaced civilization, is a source of perplexity and sadness to his nomadic,
idealistic half-brother, Hugh, and his ex-wife, Yvonne, who has returned
with
hopes of healing Geoffrey and their broken marriage.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vital Signs

1986

Starring Edward Asner, Gary Cole

Two women try to rid their doctor husbands, father and son, of dependencies
on
alcohol and drugs.

AND

Vital Signs stars Ed Asner and Gary Cole as father and son, both prominent
surgeons. Asner's skills have diminished as his alcoholism increases. Cole
returns to his home town to straighten his dad out. What no one knows is
that
Cole himself is a substance abuser, addicted to morphine. After several
near-disasters and squabbling denials, father and son make a mutual pact to
wean
themselves away from their addictions -- with tragic results. Vital Signs is
a
better than average "affliction of the week" TV movie. ~ Hal Erickson, All
Movie
Guide

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When A Man Loves A Woman

1994

Starring: Meg Ryan, Andy Garcia, Ellen Burstyn

The previews for When a Man Loves a Woman do this film an injustice. Heavy
on
poorly-edited melodramatic sequences, they give little inkling of the level
of
emotional honesty attained. Luis Mandoki's film succeeds not because it
tackles
alcoholism, but because it faces up to the trauma that eats away at the
lives of
the non-alcoholics

in the family. One failing of the script is that it assumes an unlikely
level of
ignorance from its audience. Alcoholism is such a pervasive social problem
that
it's hard to accept that anyone likely to see When a Man Loves a Woman
wouldn't
have a better understanding of the disease than the movie gives them credit
for.
After all, everything from high school health classes to Oprah have, at one
point or another, addressed the issue. Unlike AIDS, alcoholism is not a new
disease that the public needs to be educated about.

When a Man Loves a Woman centers on a seemingly-happily married couple.
Michael
Green (Andy Garcia) and his wife Alice (Meg Ryan) have, at first glance, the
perfect relationship. But take a peek beneath the veneer, and there are
problems. Alice is a habitual drinker, and her periods of sobriety are
getting
fewer and fewer. Meanwhile, Michael's duties as an airline pilot take him
away
from home for weeks at a time, keeping him ignorant of the extent of his
wife's
problem. Completing the family unit are Jess (Tina Marjorino), Alice's
daughter
by another man whom Michael has adopted as his own, and Casey (Mae Whitman),
the
four-year-old child of the Greens. The presence of these children, and their
importance to the development of the story, is what elevates When a Man
Loves a
Woman. As potent as some of the scenes between Michael and Alice are, those
featuring Jess or Casey invariably have greater impact. It helps that both
young
actresses are believable.

Meg Ryan and Andy Garcia were probably given the lead roles more because of
box
office appeal than an ability to bring superior depth to their characters.
Surprisingly, while neither turns in an exceptional performance, they are
both
solid, and each has a few scenes in which they shine.

The ending is too facile, and When a Man Loves a Woman may take longer than
necessary to arrive at its resolution. There are moments throughout when the
script is apt to strike a raw nerve with some, as is often the case when a
"real" issue is probed with any degree of sincerity. Whatever else it may
do,
this film does not play it safe, and the risks it takes keep the audience
engaged by the drama.

When a Man Loves a Woman is about pain. This is not an original topic for a
movie -- especially one about alcoholism -- but the script does a good
enough
job establishing the dynamics of the Green family that we never doubt that
the
story deserves to be told. The film's poignancy is its strength, even as
occasional didactic tendencies are its weakness. In balance, the former by
far
outweighs the latter, making this a worthwhile picture.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NO MENTION OF ALCOHOLISM IN THE REVIEWS

The following three movies have also been recommended by one or more members
of
the AAHistoryLovers as a movie about alcoholism, but in the available
reviews,
no mention is made of the role alcohol plays in the film and/or there seems
to
be no serious recognition in the film of alcoholic styles of drinking and
their
consequences.

Life of the Party

On Thin Ice

Sideways

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2589. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why hold hands to close a
meeting?
From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/14/2005 8:06:00 PM

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Why hold hands to close a meeting? (a question from Brenda)

-------------------------------------------

From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com>

In the Baltimore area, this practice seemed to have come out of the Recovery
places. That and the chanting -- "It works if you work it," "Meeting makers
make it," etc., etc,, etc.

-------------------------------------------

From: "Mel Barger" <melb@accesstoledo.com>

Hi Brenda,
I would say that it began in the mid to late 1970s and just seemed to
spread throughout AA. But there are still some stalwarts who stand apart
rather
than hold hands, and this is their right.
Mel Barger

[Note from moderator: Mel's personal experience with the AA program goes
back to
1950, and he has also done a good deal of research on AA history going back
even
earlier, to the first beginnings of the movement.]

-------------------------------------------

From: "Joe Nugent" <joe-gent@sympatico.ca>
I was informed that Bill W. started this in Toronto 1965 at the
international
and it was at the closing with the Lords prayer, it was meant to be to bring
close contact with your neighbor, the church has done this for many years as
well.
Joe

-------------------------------------------

From: "Robert Stonebraker" <rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

Although holding hands was general practice in southern California in 1975,
it
had not yet started when I returned to eastern Indiana, but within a few
years
it spread around this area. The chanting began much later.
Bob S., Richmond, IN

-------------------------------------------

From: "doremitwo" <doremitwo@yahoo.com>

Hi Brenda, It is my belief that holding hands at the end of meetings is a
sign
to all that we are united in prayer and are there to help each other. I have
been "dry" 24 years but still get the support, caring from others and value
the
fellowship. I also believe that you have to give it away to keep it.
Keep holding hands
Linda W.

-------------------------------------------

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++++Message 2590. . . . . . . . . . . . Hank P. to Bill W. 1/5/1939 re: Tom
Uzell on Big Book
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/14/2005 5:54:00 PM

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[By January 4, 1939 a pre-multilithe copy was in the hands of Tom
Uzzell who edited the Big Book. An enormous amount of work must have
taken place from this point until publication in April 1939. Hank is
clearly excited as Bill must have been when he read it.

Source is unpublished manuscript Black Sheep whose source was
transcription of original from microfilm at GSO.

Brackets [] encompass non-source text]

[letter dated 1/4/1939 Hank P. to Bill W.]

[start]

"I am rushing off to you excerpts from a letter just received from Mr.
Thomas H. Uzzell, former editor of Collier's Magazine, writer of
several books, contributor to Collier's, Sat. Evening Post, ect.

"He says 'I spent last evening with the manuscript, I knew of course,
what the document was but on reading additional chapters and surveying
the job as a whole, I found myself deeply moved, at times full of
amazement, almost incredulity, and during most of the reading I was
extremely sympathetic. My feeling at the moment is that you should
certainly hold on to the production and distribution of this volume,
if you can for she ought to go far, wide and handsome, and net those
concerned a neat profit. You have here an extremely urgent problem,
you have a successful defiance of medicine, you have a religion story,
you have a deeply human story, and, lastly, you have a whole flock of
happy endings. My God! I don't know what else you could want for a
good book. I believe in it most emphatically.

"He further says, 'The whole book needs the final shaping of a
professional hand', and then goes on in considerable length into
mechanical details with which I will not bother you.

''But it is interesting that he ends his letter as follows: 'I
understand better now the enthusiasm you revealed in your talks with
me about this work. I thought you were exagerating somewhat, but now I
have joined the choir invisible.

"If I were you I would be intensely proud of that opinion."

[stop]

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++++Message 2591. . . . . . . . . . . . Letter from Hank P. to Frank Amos
3/16/1938
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/14/2005 5:22:00 PM

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[This is a letter that may be of interest to members here. It is a
letter written by Hank P. to Frank Amos of the Rockerfeller Foundation
and soon to be non-alcoholic Trustee member of the Alcoholic
Foundation. This is from the yet unpublished Black Sheep manuscript
and was transcribed by myself from microfilm of the original at G.S.O.
It was written on the characteristic Henry G. Parkhurst stationary and
the address is 9 Hill Street in Newark, N.J. where the first two
chapters of the Big Book were written (Bill's Story and There is a
Solution) but the order reversed. (originals of these chapters are at
Stepping Stones). The office number is 705. The 9-11 Hill St. address
was Honor Dealers location until June 27, 1938 when they moved several
blocks away to office 601 and later 604 at 17-19 William St. several
blocks away. (see Newark City Directory 1938-39).

There will be another letter following but since so much history
occured fom this letter to Jan. 4th of the following year it seems
best to seperate them.

Brackets will contain material other than source derieved. []
. In a letter to one of the soon to be Alcoholic Foundation Trustees
Frank Amos, dated March 16, 1938, Hank wrote:]

[start]

"In order to focus discussion I am writing my thoughts on this
alcoholic work. I do hope that it will be understood that these are my
personal opinions and that whereas one of our strengths has been open
minded discussion of procedure, any course of action decided upon will
have my full cooperation.

"One of the most intriguing parts of this work has been the lack of
professionalism and the unselfish, self giving that has characterized
it. For that reason, I would suggest no acceptance of financial gifts
from any but those who have received direct benefit. Under this head
would come individuals and companies who had directly benefited.

"There has been generously offered to us a certain sum of money by
people who would benefit only a humanitarian basis. I think that we
should be deeply thankful for this offer; however, that it should be
accepted only as an 'advance' to a fund that is going to lend
assistance to a work that is proceding on an experimental basis. This
advance to be withdrawn by the donors when and if the work becomes
self supporting.

"In my mind we are trying to form a pattern through trial and error
that well might be followed later on a national basis. This endows the
decisions that are made at this time with grave responsibility. There
are possibilities of insincere or irresponsible people using this work
as a veritable weapon of prey on people or foundations of wealth. Too
many works with inherently powerful possibilities have been destroyed
by lack of foresight in human nature.

"I would suggest that a disinterested party who is not an alcoholic,
who is honest, and who has buisness accumen, be set up as an
administrator to the money to be known as The Fund. The people or
companies who had had a direct benefit to be allowed to contribute.
These contributions to be on a strictly secret basis with the
administrator. Under no circumstances would amounts or details be made
known to any but the administrator and to the auditor. That no one
engaged, or who has benefited ever be called into consultation as to
disbursements after a general policy has been established. I make
these suggestions in order to forestall jealousies or political
possibilities. Personally, when I make any contributions, I want to
feel that some of God's money has been returned, and that it will be
used as he directs " [. . .]"

[end]

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++++Message 2592. . . . . . . . . . . . Wesley P. Unity and the Traditions
From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/14/2005 6:48:00 PM

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Historylovers,

I have a copy of a workshop Wesley P did if the group would like it. If you
email me I will be glad to send it in a 3-part email. It is a large file, 63
MB that consist of 3 PDF files ranging from 7 to 40 MB. This was a workshop
on
the 3 legacies - Recovery, Unity & Service. Just let me know.

Charles in California

--------------------------------

ORIGINAL QUESTION FROM: "JOHN REID" <johnyr1@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue Aug 9, 2005 8:51 pm
Subject: Wesley P, Pompano Beach FLA 33060 (Unity) Workshop Group

Is this Group still in existence?

Does anyone have an electronic copy of the notes for Workshops on Unity and
the
Traditions put together by Wesley P and the above mentioned Group (who also
put
the "original" Big Book Study Guides together)? As well as helping us get
the
Big Book Studies underway, and explaining the Traditions at the level of
I/me,
Wesley gave me a copy of Unity workshop notes when he stayed with us,
DownUnder
in Australia in 1978? But in this day and age an electronic copy would sure
assist our Group to disseminate and pass on relevant information.

Thanks and Kind Regards, John R

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++++Message 2593. . . . . . . . . . . . 1,357 in our group
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2005 4:22:00 PM

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From the moderator:

I was just checking our membership list. We now have 1,357 people in the
AAHistoryLovers web group, coming from all over the world.

Everyone does not list his or her residence, but as I went through the list
I
noticed people living in the U.S.A., Mexico, England, Canada, India,
Scotland,
Ireland, Denmark, Taiwan, New Zealand, Italy, Greece, Germany, Finland, and
Australia.

The majority of the best AA historians and archivists belong to the group,
so it
serves what I think is a very useful purpose. It is a place where people can
ask
questions about AA history and get what is usually the most dependable
answer
available anywhere in the world.

So, many thanks to all of you, for the numerous excellent questions, and
also
for the careful and thoughtful answers, coming from people who have done a
lot
of extremely careful research and from some of the real experts in the
field.

Also my apologies, but because of the sheer size of the group, we decided
after
Nancy Olson's death that we had to continue her policy of not posting every
message, but using some selectivity so that people would not get overwhelmed
with more messages than anyone could read.

Glenn C. (South Bend)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2594. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Open and closed meetings
From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2005 11:17:00 AM

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When did the distinction begin between open and closed meetings? A question
from
Pam in Texas.

ANSWER #1 (SHORT ANSWER): FROM KIM

From: "Kimball" <rowek@softcom.net> Date: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:29am
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Open and closed meetings

It seems to me that the concept of Closed and Open meetings began as early
as
December 1936. Descriptions of each type of meeting can be found in the Big
Book
on pages 159-160.
[CLOSED] "A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven
more.
Seeing much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did
not
shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and
constantly thinking how they might present their discovery to some
newcomer."
[OPEN] "In addition to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to
set
apart one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone
interested in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and
sociability,
the prime object was to provide a time and place where new people might
bring
their problems."

Kim
___________________________

ANSWER #2 (A LONGER ANSWER): FROM ARTHUR

Hi Pam

Following is a rather long answer to your short question. However,
there is a fascinating history behind both the evolution of the simple
terms of “open” and “closed” and various meeting types (plus the
related matter of how to define an AA group - but this latter point
should be in a separate posting).

The notion of a closed meeting emerged from the first AA Group (in
Akron) which met at T Henry and Clarace Williams house. These meetings
were Oxford Group meetings. Spouses of alcoholics actively
participated. I’m not sure of the exact year it started (it seems
around 1937, but it could have been earlier - see “Dr Bob and the Good
Oldtimers,” pgs 100-101) at the conclusion of the OG meetings, the
Akron alcoholics would separate and meet “upstairs” by themselves
(i.e. these meetings were “closed” to exclude non-alcoholics).

As for NY, Lois W (in “Lois Remembers” - pg 171) states that “In the
beginning AA was a family affair. Mates, parents and children attended
the meetings, usually held at homes.” Based on Lois’ recollection, the
notion of “closed” meetings seems to emerge in NYC around 1940 when
the 24th Street Clubhouse was opened and the alcoholics expressing a
desire to meet separately.

Evolution of meeting types and the terms “open” and “closed”

The precursor to “The AA Group” pamphlet was called “Partners in
AA.”
It was the first publication to define various meeting types. The
types of meeting defined then (in a 1960 version of the pamphlet) were
“Closed (for alcoholics only),” “Open (for alcoholics, their families
and interested friends)” and a variation of the open meeting termed
“Public (whose emphasis was on acquainting key people in the community
with the local availability of the AA recovery program).”

Open and closed meetings were explained in the pamphlet (along with
what was called a “typical” format for the meetings - and a
“typical”
time length of an hour and a half). Closed meetings were also
explained to include “straight discussion meetings,” “Step
meetings,”
“Tradition meetings,” “Panel meetings (i.e. question and answer type
meetings) and “Beginners meetings.”

Various Conference-approved pamphlets and service pieces further
defined the evolution of meeting types and the terms “open” and
“closed.” [Note: something designated as a “service piece” does not
mean it was not Conference-approved - this seems to be a popular
misconception].

“The AA Group” pamphlet defines the difference between open and closed
meetings and a variety of meeting types to include such things as a
business meeting, Group inventory and service meetings.

What we today often call the ”blue card” definitions of open and
closed meetings evolved from a series of Conference advisory actions
emphasizing AA’s primary purpose. The “blue card” is sometimes also
called the “primary purpose” card. It is designated as a “service
piece” and was first recommended by the 1986 Conference, adopted by
the 1987 Conference and reaffirmed by the 1988 Conference.

Below, is a timeline of Conference advisory actions related to AA’s
primary purpose and the “blue card.” The advisory actions were
initially directed to the tendency of correction and treatment
facilities viewing “Alcoholics Anonymous” as “Anything-you-want
Anonymous” (an unfortunate tendency which seems to persist to this day
among many institutions and members):

1968 - It was recommended that: AA groups in correctional facilities
and hospitals adhere to AA's Fifth Tradition, on primary purpose of
carrying the message to the alcoholic. That anyone with problems other
than alcohol be made welcome at inside open meetings, but not
participate in group activities.

1969 - It was recommended that: Guidelines be prepared outlining
procedures for AA members to follow in working with institutions and
ways of informing the nonalcoholic staff about AA. The following
committee recommendations are to be included in the guidelines:

a. AAs attending meetings at prisons or hospitals should be
selected carefully so that relations with the institution's staff
remain harmonious.

b. AA's position on membership in institutional groups be
defined as follows: We cannot give AA membership to nonalcoholic
narcotic addicts and other unrelated groups or organizations. AA
groups in institutions can welcome anyone with problems other than
alcohol to inside open meetings, but it is suggested that they do not
speak or otherwise participate in these meetings.

1970 - It was recommended that: The wording of the 1969 Institutions
Committee recommendation concerning the definition of AA's position on
membership in institutions groups be changed to read as follows: “Open
meetings are traditionally open to all interested in AA, but should be
devoted exclusively to the alcoholic problem. Closed meetings should
traditionally be restricted to alcoholics.”

1972 - It was recommended that: The Conference reaffirm AA group
policy that "Only those with a desire to stop drinking may be members
of AA groups; only AA members are eligible to be officers of AA
groups; nonalcoholics are welcome at open meetings of AA." And, it is
suggested that the word "family" not be used in the name of an AA
group; if AA's and their nonalcoholic mates wish to meet together on a
regular basis, they consider these gatherings "meetings" and not AA
groups. (Floor Action)

1985 - It was recommended that: The following be inserted in the
pamphlets "If You Are a Professional" and "How AA Members Cooperate":
“The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop
drinking. If the person is not sure about this point, then he or she
is most welcome to attend an open AA meeting. If the person is sure
that drinking is not his or her problem, then he or she may wish to
seek help elsewhere.”

1986 - It was recommended that: A service item for use at AA meetings
regarding AA's primary purpose be developed by the appropriate
trustees' committee and proposed to the appropriate Conference
committee at the 1987 Conference.

1987 - It was recommended that: The following statement[s] regarding
AA's primary purpose be available as an AA service piece:

THIS IS A CLOSED MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

This is a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. In support of AA's
singleness of purpose, attendance at closed meetings is limited to
persons who have a desire to stop drinking. If you think you have a
problem with alcohol, you are welcome to attend this meeting. We ask
that when discussing our problems, we confine ourselves to those
problems, as they relate to alcoholism.

THIS IS AN OPEN MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

This is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. We are glad you are
all here--especially newcomers. In keeping with our singleness of
purpose and our Third Tradition which states that "The only
requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking," we ask
that all who participate confine their discussion to their problems
with alcohol.

1988 - It was recommended that: The Primary Purpose Card continue as a
service piece.

1997 - It was recommended that: The following statement regarding
Singleness of Purpose be added to the CPC pamphlets: "Alcoholics
Anonymous in Your Community," "AA and Employees Assistance Programs,"
"AA as a Resource for the Health Care Professional," "How AA Members
Cooperate With Professionals," "If You Are a Professional," and
"Members of the Clergy Ask About Alcoholics Anonymous" under the title
"Singleness of Purpose and Problems Other Than Alcohol" at the next
printing: “Alcoholism and drug addiction are often referred to as
'substance abuse' or 'chemical dependency.' Alcoholics and
nonalcoholics are, therefore, sometimes introduced to AA and
encouraged to attend AA meetings. Anyone may attend open AA meetings.
But only those with a drinking problem may attend closed meetings or
become AA members. People with problems other than alcoholism are
eligible for AA membership only if they have a drinking problem."

Note: other outcroppings related to the above Conference advisory
actions were:

(1) A torturous series of semantic exercises by the Conference to
arrive at the definition of an AA Group. After belaboring the
distinction among a “Group,” “meeting,” and “gathering” the
Conference
eventually came up with a “6 Point definitions of an AA group” which
was later (in 1991-1992) modified to the definition we have today -
and

(2) An overhaul of the contents of the GSO data base (in 1993-1994) to
remove “alcohol and pill,” “family” and those Groups described as
“meetings” instead of “Groups” from the data base. The results of
the
1994 revision of the GSO data base contents can erroneously be
interpreted as a steep membership decline from 1993 to 1994 when, in
fact, it simply reflects a procedural change in counting methods for
estimating the number of AA Groups and members

Cheers
Arthur (a fellow alkie in TX)
___________________________

ORIGINAL QUESTION:

From: plugar38@aol.com
Date: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:17 am
Subject: Open and closed meetings

Hi All,

I'm wondering if anyone knows the history behind the two meeting
designations (open meetings and closed meetings).

When did it start and why?

pam,
an alkie in TX

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++++Message 2595. . . . . . . . . . . . Fred & Jim?
From: friendofbillw89 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2005 8:23:00 AM

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Does anyone know the histoory or biographies of Jim and Fred who are
written about in *More about Alcoholism?*

Denisa

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++++Message 2596. . . . . . . . . . . . Founder of Gamblers Anonymous
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/18/2005 5:06:00 PM

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Here's the info about G.A....straight from the archivist's mouth..
my sponsor, Harry the Wino, knew the G.A. founder. He was also in double A
in
L.A. Calif.

Harry tells me that he wore glasses with lenses as thick as coke bottles and
was
not a good driver. He made meetings with him back in the 50's.

yis,
Shakey Mike G.

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++++Message 2597. . . . . . . . . . . . Don P.
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2005 6:16:00 AM

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His name was Don, and on this page, it will always be just that.

There are probably thousands of people alive today—clean, sober and
well—because of things he said and did. Don took no credit for that. He
said, “God uses what he has to work with.”

I'm writing this because most people never get to meet a person like Don,
and I was fortunate enough to have known him. I won't tell his story,
because I never could successfully do that. He told it countless times, and
it was often recorded—you can find it if you look.

Back in the fifties and sixties, Don was not the person I write about today.
The first time he went to prison was for getting drunk and missing the
sailing of his ship for the Korean War zone. As he related, the Navy took a
dim view of that, and he was convicted of a felony. The last time he was
locked in a prison was for drug smuggling.

He was sober when he took that trip to the Colorado State Penitentiary, but
he wasn't, by any definition, recovered from the devastating disease of
alcoholism. In prison, he met a small handful of men who had recovered, and
were willing to teach Don how they'd done it. They read to him from the book
Alcoholics Anonymous, often called the AA Big Book , and they told him how
it had save their lives. They taught him that he wasn't a psychopath or a
sociopath or a drug addict—all diagnoses that had been pasted on him along
the way to the penitentiary—he was in fact an alcoholic, as that's
explained
on the pages of the Big Book .

Those recovered drunks explained that what had worked for them would work
for Don, too. He'd have to rely on what the Twelve Steps of AA call a Higher
Power, he'd have to make genuine amends for the wrongs he'd done, and most
important of all, he'd have to help others.

They probably never told him that he'd have to spend most of his energies
helping others, for the rest of his life—and maybe he didn't really have
to
do all of that to stay sober. But he did it. Don got sober in 1967, and left
the Penitentiary a couple of years later. He wasn't the same man who went
in. He had to rebuild his life, which meant he had to work. From casual
labor, to truck driving, and finally to a career in drug and alcohol
rehabilitation, he did the kind of work that makes for a paycheck, until his
retirement.

But that wasn't his real work. From even before he left the penitentiary, he
began helping other men and women learn how to exchange lives of utter
despair for lives of peace, satisfaction and usefulness. He helped them find
themselves in the AA Big Book. He helped them to accept the truth about
themselves and their lives, and to turn to Higher Power for recovery. He
taught them how to be useful and to help others

He told people the truth, and he listened to their truths. He gave them
hope. And he lived. Anyone who wanted to know how to live only had to watch
Don. He never preached anything he didn't do. He never stopped doing the
next right thing.

He carried the message of hope he'd found in the Big Book. He carried it to
the AA meetings he frequented in his home town, to hundreds, probably
thousands, of AA conventions and conferences all over the country and the
world, and even into Russia. He served his home state as a Delegate to AA's
General Service Conference, and later on its Board of Trustees. He also
carried the message to other Twelve-Step recovery fellowships, and he was a
valued friend to many of those fellowships.

Far more importantly though, he carried his message directly into the hearts
of all he met, one heart at a time. There are no words to describe that
part. The people he touched know it, deep within them. They'll never forget
it. And each in his or her own way will always carry it to all whose paths
they cross.

The last time he spoke publicly was in an appropriate setting. It was at the
site of an AA meeting, regularly attended by a bunch of bikers. They meet in
a converted warehouse space. The room probably has a capacity of about 150
people, but twice that many were crammed in. Don wore an oxygen tube, and
spoke seated — in a strong voice, but far more quietly than usual. The
talk
had features from his typical speech, but more than the ordinary amount of
reminiscence. He was saying goodbye. He knew it. Everyone did. He stopped
every few minutes to breathe. His voice waned from time to time, then
strengthened again. He spoke for forty-five minutes or so. He cried a bit.
Others did, too.

He's gone now. He lived about twenty-seven hours after he finished that
talk, then succumbed to the cancers he'd been suffering and fighting for
months. He came as close to dying with his boots on as it was possible for
him to do. He likely helped someone stay sober on that last night that he
spoke. He certainly taught many in his audience one more lesson about how to
live.

I'll miss him. I celebrate him. Peace be with you, Don.

(Please Note: Don's anonymity is protected here, because he was a member of
Alcoholics Anonymous. The author is not a member of that fellowship, so is
not restrained by its tradition of anonymity from writing about it here.)

J.C. Adamson
http://www.greatreality.com/Don.htm

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++++Message 2598. . . . . . . . . . . . Straight pepper diet
From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2005 10:11:00 PM

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Hi all,

My home group is a Big Book study and guess where we are!

Someone has asked where did the saying "straight pepper diet" come from?

Many thanks

Carl P
__________________________________

Hi to Carl and the others in the Big Book study group!

There are concordances to the Big Book at http://www.royy.com/concord.html
and
http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/ which claim to give all the words in the
Big
Book and the place they are located. If we look up the word "pepper," we see
that it apparently shows up only once in the first 164 pages of the Big
Book, on
page 69. This tells us that the reference to a "straight pepper diet" is not
a
standard phrase in the Big Book.

"Straight pepper diet" is also not a phrase I have ever run into in any of
my
other reading in AA literature (or anywhere else). If I am wrong on that,
perhaps someone can write in and correct me.

So Bill W. must have devised this phrase himself, as a metaphor in which he
regarded "sex as the spice of life." You could live without ever having sex
at
all, but that kind of life would be pretty bland and tasteless. A little bit
of
salt and pepper (or some other spice) made things taste better and gave us
enjoyment, in ways that did not have to do anyone any harm. But people who
could
not think about anything except sex, sex, and more sex, were (metaphorically)
like people who tried to live on a diet of bowls filled with nothing but
mounds
of pepper. In other words, past a certain point, the desire for sex, sex,
and
always more sex became insane.

There are some people (both men and women) who come into AA and are able to
stop
drinking, but then start going crazy because they don't think they can live
unless they can start having sex with someone right away. They always choose
a
sex partner as crazy as they are, and the two people go off into the la la
land
of romantic fantasy, but since they are both quite ill psychologically, the
relationship always falls apart, and usually at least one of the two people
goes
back to the bottle at that point.

That is why the good old timers in my part of the world tell newcomers not
to
start up any kind of relationship until they have been in the AA program for
a
year. That is also why all the good AA descriptions of how to do a fourth
step
talk about the necessity of listing all of our resentments and fears which
have
to do with sex.

The problem here is that people who go sex crazy when they first come into
the
AA program, do not believe that they can survive by themselves. They think
that
some other person can fill the big hole inside their souls. Well, all
alcoholics
come into the program with a big empty hole inside their souls, and it
doesn't
make any difference in the long run what we try to fill it with, as long as
we
are turning to the material world and outside things. We can try to fill the
hole with alcohol, or with drugs, or with sex and romance (and become
romance-oholics), or with a gambling addiction (where our drug of choice is
adrenaline), or whatever.

But none of these ever work, because only a higher power can fill that hole
inside us. That is one of the most basic AA principles. There is a line from
St. Augustine (*Confessions* 1.1) which is often quoted in AA literature,
"you
have made us for yourself [speaking about the higher power], and our hearts
are
rest-less until they find their rest in you." And the French existentialist
author Pascal talks about the empty hole inside us that only God can fill.

Our desire for sex can get us in trouble, but on the other hand, Bill W.
wanted
to make it clear that regarding sex as wicked or evil, and thinking that we
were
going to hell if we ever thought sexual thoughts or felt any kind of sexual
desire, was usually going overboard in the opposite direction.

So just like all of our other natural instincts (see the chapter on the
fourth
step in *Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions*), what we had to do was find
some
kind of BALANCE between the two extremes.

Yours in the fellowship,
Glenn C.

P.S. see "The Balanced Life: Seeking the Golden Mean"
(http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang6.html) for more about the vital role played in
Bill W.'s thought by the idea of seeking a BALANCE between the two extremes
in
dealing with all of our natural instincts. It is one of the most important
principles in AA. Instead of talking about a straight pepper diet, this
little
article (making the same basic point) talks about the woman who was sent to
a
psychiatrist because she loved pancakes.

Pascal is frequently cited as having talked about "a God-shaped hole" inside
our
souls. This may be a modern paraphrase. See
http://www.uccmanhasset.org/godshapedhole.pdf, which gives the closest thing
I
have found to that idea in his writings.

Pascal, Pensees X.148:

"What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there
was
once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty
print
and trace? This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking
in
things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though
none
can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and
immutable object; in other words by God himself."

Blaise Pascal, *Pensees,* trans. A. J. Krailsheimer (London: Penguin, 1993),
45.

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++++Message 2599. . . . . . . . . . . . The Devil and AA
From: Corky Forbes . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2005 12:44:00 PM

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Does anyone know of a phamplet called "The Devil and AA"? It is conference
approved from way back. Maybe someone could find it in the Archives and
e-mail
it to me. I have heard it is really good. Appreciate your help. God bless
you
and have a great day.
Corky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2600. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Movies on Alcoholism with
Reviews
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2005 3:25:00 PM

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Oh no! There is an omission of one the finest, hardest hitting movies
(and books) concerning alcoholism:

“Ironweed”

by William Kennedy (1987) - the novel was awarded a Pulitzer prize.

It starred Jack Nicholson and Meryl Streep who were both nominated for
Academy Awards. Tom Waits also had a terrific part.

Cheers
Arthur
___________________________

Thanks Arthur. Obviously one that ought to be added to our list. Here are
some
of the reviews I found.

Glenn C.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ironweed

1987

Starring Jack Nicholson and Meryl Streep

One the finest, hardest hitting movies (and books) concerning alcoholism:
The
novel “Ironweed” by William Kennedy was awarded a Pulitzer prize. The
movie
starred Jack Nicholson and Meryl Streep who were both nominated for Academy
Awards. Tom Waits also had a terrific part. ~ Arthur Sheehan

AND

Francis Phelan (Jack Nicholson) is a former baseball player, husband and
father
who threw it all away for a life on the road. In 1938, this alcoholic bum
returns to his hometown of Albany, New York. The familiar streets bring to
mind
the guilt he still feels for causing the death of his infant son 22 years
ago.
And he is still troubled by the memory of a scab trolley car operator he
killed
with a stone thrown during a strike. Although he is a violent man, Francis
is
also a caretaker. There is genuine compassion in his concern for Helen
(Meryl
Streep), his street companion for many years and for Rudy (Tom Waits)
another
vagabond. After earning some money, Francis purchases a turkey and stops by
to
visit his wife (Carroll Baker) and children. It is his last shot at facing
up to
his terrible past and deciding whether or not there is a place for him in
the
family circle. Mixing realistic and surrealistic scenes, Argentinean
director
Hector Babenco puts the accent on what he calls the spiritual dimensions of
William Kennedy's Pulitzer Prize-winning novel. He explains: "It is a movie
that
tries to embrace the territories of love, and it's also about the courage
and
beauty of people we don't usually think of as having deep and complex
emotions."
If you ride with the emotional undertow of Ironweed, there's no way you'll
ever
look at street people in quite the same way. ~ by Frederic and Mary Ann
Brussat

AND

Based on the William Kennedy novel of the same name Ironweed is set in the
waning years of the Depression. Jack Nicholson plays a washed-up ballplayer
who
deserted his family back in the teens when he accidentally killed his son.
Since
that time, Nicholson has been a shabby barfly, living from drink to drink.
Wandering into Albany, New York, Nicholson blearily seeks out his girlfriend
and
erstwhile drinking companion Meryl Streep. The two derelicts touch base in a
mission managed by minister James Gammon, and later in Fred Gwynne's squalid
gin
mill. Over the next few days, Nicholson takes a few minor jobs to support
his
habit, while his mind wavers between past and present. A chance for a
reconciliation with his wife Carroll Baker comes to naught when a group of
local, baseball-bat wielding "reformers" take it upon themselves to drive
all
bums out of Albany. Directed by Hector Babenco (Kiss of the Spider Woman),
Ironweed is, at 144 minutes, far too long to sustain audience interest in
the
plight of its characters. But 32 of those 144 minutes are given over to the
scenes between Jack Nicholson and Meryl Streep, both of whom are beyond
praise.
~ Hal Erickson

AND

The power of Method acting was demonstrated in the great actress Meryl
Streep on
the set of Ironweed, a bleak film in which she played a ragged outcast
during
the Depression who dies in a cheap hotel room. According to an article in
Life
magazine, Ms. Streep hugged a giant bag of ice cubes to simulate the feeling
of
lifelessness. In the dramatic scene, her hobo boyfriend, played by Jack
Nicholson, cried and sobbed, shaking her lifeless body. When the scene was
finished, Ms. Streep just lay on the bed cold and still. After about ten
minutes, she began to emerge from a deep, trance-like state which she had
entered emotionally and psychologically.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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++++Message 2601. . . . . . . . . . . . Founder of Gamblers Anonymous
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2005 11:35:00 AM

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Dear Shakey Mike G.

The founder of G.A. was a gentleman by the name of Jim W. The other person
at
that meeting was a man named Sam J.

The first meeting of Gamblers Anonymous was held on Friday, September 13,
1957,
at the Mayfair Hotel in Los Angeles, California.

Hope this has helped.

Sincerely,

Karen H., International Executive Secretary

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2602. . . . . . . . . . . . Change in 12 step work?
From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2005 3:13:00 AM

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In Denmark one of our pamphlets states something like this:
AA members may contact an alcoholic who seeks help but prefer that
the alcoholic themselves handles that first step.

This obviously means that we expect the still suffering alcoholic to
contact AA and not vice versa.

I do think it is like that in most of the world.

On the other hand, if you read The Big Book it shows that Ebby went
to Bill on his own. Bill definitely sought Dr. Bob in order to keep
himself sober and they found Bill D. in order to stay sober
themselves.

This is stated throughout the book, for instance from Chapter
7 "Working with Others"

"When you discover a prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous, find out
all you can about him. If he does not want to stop drinking, don't
waste time trying to persuade him. You may spoil a later opportunity.
This advice is given for his family also. They should be patient,
realizing they are dealing with a sick person.

If there is any indication that he wants to stop, have a good talk
with the person most interested in him--usually his wife. Get an idea
of his behaviour, his problems, his background, the seriousness of
his condition, and his religious leanings. You need this information
to put yourself in his place, to see how you would like him to
approach you if the tables were turned.

Do not be discouraged if your prospect does not respond at once.
Search out another alcoholic and try again."

So it seems to me that there has been a change here. Does anyone know
when this changed and that case why?

Best wishes
Bent

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++++Message 2603. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Devil and AA
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2005 5:00:00 PM

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As far as I know, this pamphlet never came before the General Service
Conference. It is implied to be conference approved as AAWS has deemed that
locally published materials don't have to be approved by the conference to
be
considered approved. (kind of convoluted logic)

The pamphlet is still available through the Chicago Intergroup.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Corky Forbes" <corkyf@cox.net> wrote and asked:

Does anyone know of a pamphlet called "The Devil and AA"? It is conference
approved from way back. Maybe someone could find it in the Archives and
email it
to me. I have heard it is really good. Appreciate your help. God bless you
and
have a great day.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"wilfried antheunis" <wilant@sympatico.ca> suggested:
There used to be a little booklet: "OUR DEVILISH ALCOHOLIC PERSONALITIES."
The
title page says: "by The Author of the Little Red Book." Copy I have says
also:
"First Hazelden printing 1975"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

glennccc@sbcglobal.net says:

For more about ODAP (Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities) see
http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html : "In Minneapolis, Minnesota, Ed Webster (who
got
sober in A.A. on October 10, 1942) published *The Little Red Book* in 1946
under
the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group. Ed had the help and support of Dr.
Bob,
who gave numerous suggestions for wording various passages. Ed also wrote
*Stools and Bottles* (1955), *Barroom Reveries* (1958) and *Our Devilish
Alcoholic Personalities* (in 1970, just a year before his death). In various
places in the U.S. and Canada, Ed was the third most widely read A.A.
author."

These books were all originally published by Ed Webster and Barry Collins
(the
founder of Minneapolis A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April 14, 1941)
under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.

Glenn believes that *Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities* (ODAP) should
basically be regarded just like the Chicago Intergroup pamphlet which
Mitchell
K. mentioned: this book "never came before the General Service Conference.
It is
implied to be conference approved as AAWS has deemed that locally published
materials don't have to be approved by the conference to be considered
approved."

Hazelden bought the rights to all of Ed Webster's books from Ed's widow
shortly
after Ed died so you will find copies of ODAP printed after 1970 with
Hazelden
listed as the publisher, but Hazelden had nothing whatever to do with the
writing of any of Ed's books. Used copies of ODAP can be bought, but they
are
fairly expensive ($47 to $180 range).

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++++Message 2604. . . . . . . . . . . . A.A. is not allied with any sect,
denomination, politics, organization or instit
From: Jack Stewart . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2005 6:33:00 PM

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"A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or
institution"

I have a memory of having read something which explained the reason
behind each component - and the failed alliance which supported the
declaration of non-alliance.

Sect
Denomination
Politics
Organization
Institution

The Foreword to the First Edition deals with Faith, Sect or
Denomination so the events (if any) for these must have been prior to
that time.

After having spent a week browsing through the messages of this Yahoo
Group and being very impressed by the constantly high level of
fastidious research, I am hesitant to ask the question in case I
unearth some spurious myth and legend - but if there are well
documented "events" I would be interested.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the document I came across some 4
years ago - somewhere on the Web (and cannot refind) - may have
belonged to some of the manufactured and not original history.

Thanks for this wonderful treasure trove of well researched facts and
I will use the search feature whenever I hear someone state a "fact"
in the rooms and ensure only the facts are used for historical
discussions.

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++++Message 2605. . . . . . . . . . . . Members Eye View pamphlet
From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/22/2005 10:56:00 AM

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Can anybody tell me who wrote the Members Eye View pamphlet ?

Many Thanks

Carl P

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++++Message 2606. . . . . . . . . . . . More Movies
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2005 3:01:00 PM

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Four additional titles sent in by:

"Jean Cottel" jcottel@earthlink.net
"Dan" dtroe@sbcglobal.net
"billyk" billyk3@yahoo.com
Emil Kaluza

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Clean and Sober

1988

Starring Michael Keaton

Michael Keaton plays Daryl Poynter, a hot shot real estate agent who just
happens to have a cocaine and drinking problem. One morning, he wakes up to
find
a dead woman in his bed (someone he had been partying with the night before)
from a cocaine overdose. He also just happens to receive a phone call from
his
employers telling him a huge sum of money is missing from one of his
accounts.
Panicking, Daryl decides to check into a drug rehab to hide from the law,
where
he meets tough cookie Morgan Freeman. A recovering addict himself, he now
works
as a drug counselor, and knows all the tricks Daryl tries to pull. Soon
Daryl
discovers he just might be in the right place, afterall.

AND

After making his mark in several hit comedies including Beetlejuice, Michael
Keaton startled critics and audiences alike with his acclaimed performance
in
this 1988 drama about one man's struggle against cocaine addiction. Keaton's
comedic energy is transformed here into the kind of jittery intensity that's
perfect for his role, suggesting a driven personality who can maintain the
appearance of self-control for only so long before he crashes and burns.
After a
series of setbacks, Keaton's character seeks refuge in a drug rehabilitation
program and must confront the truth of his own addiction at the urging of a
counselor (Morgan Freeman) who's heard every lame excuse in the book from
addicts struggling to quit. Kathy Baker leads a superb supporting cast as a
recovering alcoholic and battered wife whose flagging self-esteem is boosted
by
Keaton's attention. Under the careful direction of Glenn Gordon Caron (of
TV's
Moonlighting fame), Keaton and Baker handle this delicate material with
consummate skill and grace, turning a potentially depressing story into a
moving
portrait of people who must battle their inner demons step by tentative
step.
~Jeff Shannon

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Barfly

1987

Starring Mickey Rourke and Faye Dunaway

This movie captures the true essence of life as an alcoholic and the day to
day
struggles one has to endure. With Faye Dunaway as his companion, we see the
true
struggle of humanity. With a wonderful screenplay and articulate direction,
this
must see movie will definitely make you ponder. I felt that the movie was a
true
drama, but it has many comedic moments. You will truly be entertained with
Henry's whimsical quotes and intoxicated utterances. He is the best
drunk/poet
you will ever witness on film!

AND

The script for this movie was written by outrageous poet-author-alcoholic
Charles Bukowski. But director Barbet Schroeder makes it into an oddly
amusing
story of a pugnacious drunk writer (Mickey Rourke) based on Bukowski
himself.
Rourke spends almost all of his time at the bar, struggling with sobriety
(he's
against it) and, occasionally, having fistfights with the bartender (Frank
Stallone). He meets another souse, a formerly attractive woman (Faye
Dunaway),
and gets involved with her, which means they drink copious amounts of liquor
and
try to have sex. Not much happens beyond that, yet this film is strangely
entertaining, for all of its bottom-of-the-barrel humanity. Maybe that's the
secret.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Trees Lounge

1996

Starring Carol Kane, Mark Boone Junior, Steve Buscemi, Bronson Dudley

Steve Buscemi, an icon of the independent film world for years, took the
opportunity to write, direct, and star in this wistful low-budget gem. He
plays
Tommy, a Long Island loser who gets tossed from his job as a mechanic for
questionable financial antics. He spends his days at a local bar, drinking
his
life away even as he denies that he's doing any such thing. And when he
finally
works up the gumption to get a job, he winds up driving an ice-cream truck
in
his old neighborhood -- and getting involved in an inappropriate
relationship
with his teeny-bopper assistant (Chloe Sevigny), earning the violent enmity
of
her father (Daniel Baldwin). Low-key in its approach, the film has a sad
humor
that is both knowing and forgiving, as well as offering one of Buscemi's
best
performances. ~Marshall Fine

AND

Unlike Cheers, the title establishment of Steve Buscemi's astonishingly
accomplished debut feature, Trees Lounge, is a place where everybody doesn't
know your name and sometimes can't remember his or her own. And for good
reason.
Take leading barfly Tommy Basilio, played by Buscemi with a subtlety,
sensitivity, and desperate wit that add another dimension to the memorable
lowlifes he's made a career of. Tommy has lost Connie (Elizabeth Bracco),
his
girlfriend, and Rob (Anthony LaPaglia), his best friend -- to each other,
naturally. He's also lost his job as a mechanic, and everything else that
matters in his life except for hanging out at the bar, hitting on drunken
women,
and thinking just maybe he can break out of this malaise by fulfilling his
dream
of becoming a comedian. It's not likely; even his car works only as a
metaphor
for his life -- if he doesn't keep his foot on the accelerator it will stall
out, perhaps never to start again.

Set in Valley Stream, the blue-collar town on Long Island where Buscemi grew
up,
this vaguely autobiographical film captures the seedy bars, tacky bungalows,
and
cheesy storefronts with such weary familiarity it evokes a gray haze of
anomie.
True to its subject, the narrative consists of a series of binges and
blackouts,
with Tommy slipping in and out of encounters with oddballs, hangovers, and
constant irrefutable evidence of his own futility. Buscemi's inspiration is
John
Cassavetes, but his style lacks his mentor's coiled spontaneity and nascent
chaos. To its advantage, though, he's much more narratively coherent than
Cassavetes, unreeling with casual clarity his film's many interconnecting
tales,
his tone sweet and nearly serene, belying the sometimes sordid and
mean-spirited
antics of the characters.

Who include Mike (Mark Boone Junior, bearish and weird in a compelling
performance), a relative well-to-do entrepreneur who gets off by slumming at
the
lounge, cozying up especially to Tommy, and plying him with drinks in a
fuzzy
attempt to live vicariously in his demi-monde. When Mike's wife (Eszter
Balint)
leaves with her daughter, he talks Tommy into coming back to his place with
a
couple of teenage pick-ups for a party. What results is less erotic than
pathetic, with both Mike's need and Tommy's exposed beneath their sodden
bravura. Adding to this deflating of macho is a scene in which Tommy tries
to
pick up a blowzy but seemingly willing Crystal (Debi Mazar). He gets her
drunk
-- too drunk. She passes out, but Tommy refuses to give up his efforts to
score.
It's hilarious and very sad.

Tommy's tale takes a dramatic turn of sorts when his Uncle Al (Seymour
Cassel,
who makes a vivid impression in his few minutes on screen, especially when
fondling his niece in a home video) dies of a heart attack. After a funeral
that's a mini-masterpiece of familial insensitivity and bad taste, Tommy is
offered Uncle Al's legacy -- an ice-cream-truck route. In addition to the
coterie of dubious neighborhood kids disappointed that he's not Uncle Al,
the
route also includes Debbie (Chloe Sevigny, much more appealing and nuanced
than
in Kids), the nubile daughter of his friend Jerry (Daniel Baldwin) and
Jerry's
wife, Patty (Mimi Rogers).

Tommy used to babysit Debbie; now, draped coltishly over the passenger seat
of
the ice-cream truck, she engages him in banter. It's the closest Tommy gets
to a
genuine relationship, and of course he ruins it. In a delicate orchestration
of
tenderness and sexual tension the opening up of his soul leads to the
opening up
of his fly, and his last chance at redemption ends with him getting chased
by an
enraged man with a baseball bat.

It takes an extraordinary degree of dramatic integrity, meticulous detail,
and
triumphant irony to redeem such a loser, and Buscemi -- as writer, director,
and
actor -- is equal to the task. Although alter ego Tommy is left bereft and
staring blankly at the bar, for Steve Buscemi Trees Lounge marks the start
of a
richly promising filmmaking career.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Under the Influence

1986

Starring Andy Griffith, Season Hubley, Paul Provenza, Keanu Reeves, Dana
Andersen

This fine film features one of Keanu Reeves first performances. Who would
have
guessed he would have become such a big star at the time this film came out.
Griffith is compelling as Noah a long time alcoholic with a long suffering
family. His wife basically closes her eyes and denies everything, one of his
son's runs away and becomes a comedian joking about his dysfunctional
family,
his daughters become suicidal and his son is an alcoholic to. This isn't a
happy
bunch by any means, but this film delivers a powerful message about
alcoholism
and its effect on a family. Its gritty, unsentimental and pulls no punches.
Next
to Murder In Coweta County, I think this is Andy's most chilling
performance. He
definitely doesn't play the sheriff from Mayberry here.

AND

Under the Influence is a TV movie about an alcoholic, scripted by recovered
alcoholic Joyce Rebeta-Burdett. Andy Griffith plays the head of an outwardly
respectable New England family. Griffith drinks heavily, but the rest of the
family sweeps his addiction under the rug. When Griffith lands in the
hospital,
he must come to grips with his illness -- and the rest of the family must
stop
lying to each other and to themselves. Under the Influence is remarkable not
only for the intelligent, unsensational handling of its subject, must also
for
Andy Griffith's convincing portrayal of a New Englander. ~ Hal Erickson

AND

Andy Griffith (Matlock) plays an alcoholic who denies his addiction and
drives
his wife and two of his four kids into their own battle with substance
abuse.
After he suffers a heart attack, the whole family is forced to face the
reality
of their dysfunctional lives. Griffith, Joyce Van Patten, Season Hubley,
Dana
Andersen and Keanu Reeves are excellent as the self-destructive family.
Sharply
directed by Thomas Carter (Miami Vice), this TV movie offers a sobering
portrait
of a middle-class family in crisis. An important social issue drama done
with
style and intelligence.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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++++Message 2607. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: A.A. is not allied with any
sect, denomination, politics, organization or instit
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2005 1:28:00 PM

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Hi Jack

The April 1939 Foreword to the 1st Edition (written by Bill W) states:
“We are not an organization in the conventional sense of the word.
There are no fees or dues whatsoever. The only requirement for
membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. We are not allied
with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose
anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted.”

In contrast, the original AA Preamble (written by Grapevine’s first
Editor, Tom Y in the June 1947 Grapevine) states: “Alcoholics
Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share, their
experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve
their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The
only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking.
AA has no dues or fees. It is not allied with any sect, denomination,
politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any
controversy, and neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary
purpose is to stay sober and to help other alcoholics to achieve
sobriety.”

Immediately underneath the Preamble, in the June 1947 Grapevine, it
further states: “The A.A. Program of Recovery is incorporated in The
12 Steps. The AA book of experience, Alcoholics Anonymous, and other
literature, including The 12 Points of Tradition, are available
through any group or the Central Office, PO Box 459, Grand Central
Annex, New York 17, NY.”

The GSO web site has a brief history of the derivation of the AA
Preamble. It sates: “THE PREAMBLE was introduced in the June 1947
issue of the AA Grapevine magazine. It was written by the then-editor,
who borrowed much of the phrasing from the Foreword to the original
edition of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous.”

I’d suggest that this brief statement suffers from an omission
concerning the emergence of a formal definition of the Twelve
Traditions that occurred between the publication of the Big Book
(April 1939) and writing of the Preamble (June 1947). The April 1946
Grapevine carried Bill W’s article “Twelve Suggested Points for AA
Tradition.” It defined what would later be called the “long form” of
the Traditions.

While Bill’s April 1946 Grapevine article does not have a verbatim
statement of AA not being “allied with any sect, denomination,
politics, organization or institution” its subject matter content, as
well as the content of many later Grapevine articles and talks by
Bill, more than adequately address these points in both detail and
substance (not literally word-for-word but certainly issue-by-issue).
The Grapevine articles can be found in the book “Language of the
Heart.” About half of them were written prior to the Preamble.

Given the elapsed time between the publication of the Big Book and
Preamble (8 years) it is not at all unreasonable that much of the
specific wording of the Preamble does not literally correspond with
the specific wording of the Foreword to the 1st Edition. In terms of
substance, however, they are not at variance. A similar analogy exists
between what many call the Third and Seventh Step prayers - they are
worded differently but basically say the same thing.

Tom Y had the benefit of the long form of the Traditions plus many of
Bill W’s later Traditions essays and the availability of Bill W
himself for exposition of the principles embodied in the Traditions
(which Tom Y so elegantly encapsulated in the AA Preamble). I would
give more credence to this than to other propositions.

The Traditions essays teem with information such as the mistakes of
the Washingtonians, in pursuing prohibition and having their
membership ranks swell with non-alcoholics (often members of
temperance societies sponsored by various religious denominations or
political entities). Tradition Six, in its long form, cautions that
“While an AA group may cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought
never go so far as affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An
AA group can bind itself to no one.” Further, Tradition Ten, in its
long form, cautions against expressing “any opinion on outside


controversial issues - particularly those of politics, alcohol reform,
or sectarian religion” (“any opinion” meaning opinions either for or
against). There are other bits and pieces concerning non-alignment in
other Traditions (in their long form) as well.

Cheers
Arthur

_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Stewart
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 6:34 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] A.A. is not allied with any sect,
denomination, politics, organization or instit

"A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics,
organization or institution"

I have a memory of having read something which explained the reason
behind each component - and the failed alliance which supported the
declaration of non-alliance.

Sect
Denomination
Politics
Organization
Institution

The Foreword to the First Edition deals with Faith, Sect or
Denomination so the events (if any) for these must have been prior to
that time.

After having spent a week browsing through the messages of this Yahoo
Group and being very impressed by the constantly high level of
fastidious research, I am hesitant to ask the question in case I
unearth some spurious myth and legend - but if there are well
documented "events" I would be interested.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the document I came across some 4
years ago - somewhere on the Web (and cannot refind) - may have
belonged to some of the manufactured and not original history.

Thanks for this wonderful treasure trove of well researched facts and
I will use the search feature whenever I hear someone state a "fact"
in the rooms and ensure only the facts are used for historical
discussions.

SPONSORED LINKS

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++++Message 2608. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholics Anonymous In Your
Community
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2005 2:51:00 PM

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Hi all,

Regarding the above pamphlet which Bent mentioned in his post does anyone
know
why it was reinstated to the approved reading list in 1981 after being
discontinued in 1980, as it was too similar to A Brief Guide and AA At A
Glance?

Thanks

Fiona

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++++Message 2609. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gamblers Anonymous, who founded
it?
From: txscottduckdog . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2005 10:47:00 AM

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Sybil talks about her husband who started GA in this talk i can't
rember what his name was.
Scott

http://64.27.65.90:8080/ramgen/elmoware/sybil_c.rm

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "oicuradry12"
<oicuradry12@y...> wrote:
> Who were the two founders of Gamblers Anonymous? The reasons why
I asked this group was because 1) both guys were early A.A.'s, 2)
Bill W. was often called the co-founder by one of them, and 3) you
guys are the most well researched folks I know ;)
>
> Now, what I do know (or well, I think I know) is one guy is named
Jim Willis and he also co-founded Overeaters Anonymous, and he was
married to Sybil C. -- the first woman to enter A.A. west of the
Mississippi.
>
> Now this is hearsay: the second founder was an early A.A.(one of
the first to enter A.A. under the Jewish faith) but he relapsed on
alcohol as soon as they founded G.A.
>
> As always, any knowlege you can share will be most appreciated.
>
> Forever in service,
>
> Rockbottom Russ Chicago drunk
> _________________________________
>
> NOTE BY THE MODERATOR: I did an internet search myself and could
not find anything other than vague information stating that Gamblers
Anonymous was founded by two people, and when it was founded. So I
know this is off of the strict topic of AA history in one sense, but
given the fact that stories are circulating stating that certain
known figures in AA history were involved in its founding, I think
that it does pertain to AA history in that manner.
>
> So does anyone know anything about Jim Willis, Sybil C., or the
early Jewish AA member, simply as AA members, which might be
relevant to this question?
>
> Glenn C.

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++++Message 2610. . . . . . . . . . . . Letters in "As Bill Sees It"
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2005 9:54:00 PM

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"As Bill Sees It" refers us to sources from many A.A. books
and Grapevine issues. It is easy to read those quoted passage
in context. But what about the letters? Where can we look to
see the complete letters from which the short quotes were
taken? And maybe even the letter that Bill was answering?
For example:
__________________
ABSI Page 191
letter 1966

"There are few absolutes inherent in the Twelve
Steps. Most steps are open to interpretation, based
on the experience and outlook of the individual.

"Consequently, the individual is free to start the
steps at whatever point he can, or will. God, as
we understand Him, may be defined as a 'Power
greater...' or the Higher Power. For thousands
of members, the A.A. group itself has been a
'Higher Power' in the beginning. This acknowl-
edgment is easy to make if a newcomer knows
that most of the members are sober and he isn't.

"His admission is the beginning of humility - at
least the newcomer is willing to disclaim that he
himself is God. That is all the start he needs. If,
following this achievement, he will relax and
practice as many of the steps as he can, he is
sure to grow spiritually."

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++++Message 2611. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Members Eye View pamphlet
From: Dick . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2005 1:47:00 PM

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Author Allen McGiness of the Members Eye View pamphlet

On Monday, August 22, 2005 10:57 AM, Carl P. asked:

Can anybody tell me who wrote the Members Eye View pamphlet?

Many Thanks
Carl P
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From: "Dick" <dikilee@yahoo.com> Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:47pm

Allen McGiness. See posts 2548 & 2532 among others.

Regards, Dick Spaedt
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From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:39pm
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Members Eye View pamphlet

Hi Carl

I believe there is information on the "A Member’s-Eye View ...”
pamphlet in the AAHL archive that can be found using the search
function. In any event, here's a resubmission.

There were unsuccessful attempts in the 1980s to construct a history
of AA that picked up from the point where Bill W ended in “AA Comes of
Age” (i.e. from 1955 on). An extract from the manuscript of that
aborted history project is shown below:

“… one of the most powerful and popular pamphlets in the AA library,
almost never saw the light of day. Trustee Bayard P, an executive with
a large advertising agency in New York, while on a business trip to
California with his wife, Marjorie (also active in the program),
looked up an old associate at the agency (and fellow AA member), Allan
McG (Parenthetically, past trustee George D remembers Allan McG as a
leader in Southern California AA when he joined in 1961, and says of
him, “He was the most interesting man I ever met, the most
stimulating. He was brilliantly articulate and touched many, many
people.") When Allan met Bayard and Marjorie P for dinner, he
mentioned to them that he was making his annual speech about
Alcoholics Anonymous to a class at UCLA which he had done for a number
of years. They asked him if he had a manuscript of the talk, which he
later showed them; it was called “A Member’s Eye View of AA” “We
were
absolutely thrilled by it,” recalls Bayard. “It was the best thing of
the kind we’d ever read, and we asked Allan’s permission to take it
back to New York and see if it could be an AA publication. Which we
did.”

When Herb M brought the manuscript to the AAWS Board, staff member Ann
M raised strenuous objections based on the fact that it was one
person’s opinion and one person’s writing and had not evolved through
the group conscience as all the other Conference-approved literature
had. The same opposition was raised at the Trustees’ Literature
Committee. However, the inherent excellence and value of the piece
ultimately prevailed. It was approved by the Conference and published
in 1970, with a prefatory explanation which read in part, “Though the
AA program relies upon the sharing of experience, the recovery process
itself is highly individual. Therefore, the program is described here
as it appears to one member; but the pamphlet does reflect Fellowship
thinking.” Although the pamphlet was originally conceived of to
explain the program to alcoholism professionals and other outsiders,
it has provided fresh insights for AA members as well.

Cheers
Arthur
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From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com> Date: Tue Aug 23,
2005
3:47pm

Hello, Carl, this is Jim Maliachi from México, City.
The author of this pamphlet was Allen McGuiness; he lived in California. It
seems that on middle of 50's, he drank again, but he return back to us and
it
was the last drink in his life.

You can find more information in: xa-speaker.org search Allen.
I hope you'll be all right. 24 hours of sobriety.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote.
servidor y amigo.
57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44
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From: MaryGerbermom1@aol.com Date: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:16pm

Allen McGinnis wrote Members Eye View. Thanks for asking. cause now I know
too.

Mary G

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++++Message 2612. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about the "Table Mate"
From: Thumper . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2005 11:51:00 AM

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I just recently spent a week in the state of Washington and was handed a
pamphlet from an old timer with 42 years. It's called the Table Mate and I
was
wondering if anyone out there knew more about it??

Love in Service,
Paula Barnette

in the right formation, the lifting power of many wings can achieve twice
the
distance of any bird flying alone.

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++++Message 2613. . . . . . . . . . . . The "Table Mate" and the good old
timers
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2005 2:15:00 PM

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"Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps" is an early AA
pamphlet also called "the Table Mate," "the Detroit Pamphlet," or "the
Washington D.C. Pamphlet"

Paula,

Two or three weeks ago, "walkinapath" walkinapath@yahoo.com also wrote in
asking about this pamphlet, so I guess it might be a good idea to post
something
about it.

It contains the most successful set of beginners lessons ever devised in
early
AA, and was used all over the United States. In fact, I know that it's still
being used today in Detroit and in northern Indiana.

The beginners class meets once a week for four weeks to cover the four
lessons:

Discussion No. 1, "The Admission," Step 1.

Discussion No. 2, "The Spiritual Phase," Steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 11.

Discussion No. 2, "Inventory and Restitution," Steps 4, 8, 9, and 10.

Discussion No. 4, "Active Work," Step 12.

The original title of the pamphlet was "Alcoholics Anonymous: An
Interpretation
of the Twelve Steps." It was also known as "The Table Mate," the "Detroit
Pamphlet," and the "Washington D.C. Pamphlet." There is a copy of the main
text
of the Detroit version at:

http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html

http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html

http://hindsfoot.org/detr1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/detr2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/detr3.html

http://hindsfoot.org/detr4.html

The type for this internet version was reset by me in 1990 for use in
beginners
classes in South Bend because there were so many typographical errors in the
older printed version. In addition, words in the text which had been put
into
CAPITAL LETTERS for emphasis were put into italics instead, which is modern
typographical practice and makes it far easier to read. Most of the versions
of
this pamphlet on the internet (it can be found at a number of other places)
are
simply copies of this 1990 version, for example, the Adobe Acrobat version
at
http://www.aanapa.org/pdf/Interpretation_12_Steps.pdf

If you wish however, you can get a printed copy of the early Detroit version
of
the pamphlet from Alcoholics Anonymous of Greater Detroit, 380 Hilton Road,
Ferndale MI 48220.

We know pretty closely when this pamphlet was written. We know that Detroit
set
up their first beginners meeting on June 14, 1943. The best evidence is that
the
early Detroit AA people wrote it for that beginners meeting, and must have
used
mimeographed copies, one copy of which got to Washington D.C.

The AA group in Washington D.C. took that to a printer and produced a
professionally printed pamphlet. They may also have made some changes in it,
but
we do not know, beyond the fact that they added a poem with the name of the
wife
of one of the leaders of AA in Washington D.C. under it.

Just a few months later (at most) a copy of that got back to Detroit, and
the AA
group in Detroit liked Washington's printed version so well that they sent
it to
a printer in Detroit and asked him to print up something exactly like it for
them (including the poem which had been added in Washington D.C.).

We then have a letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at the New York A.A.
headquarters (then called the Alcoholic Foundation), which is dated November
11,
1944, and refers to the Washington D.C. version and gives it New York's full
approval.

IT IS PERFECTLY O.K. for AA people to use this pamphlet in AA meetings. As
is
made clear by Bobby Burger's letter, as well as other documents from that
period, including letters from Bill W., this pamphlet (along with
Twenty-Four
Hours a Day and The Little Red Book) were automatically regarded as O.K. to
read
in AA meetings. This was because all three were sponsored by AA groups, and
the
understanding in early AA was that anything written by one AA group or
intergroup for use by their members was automatically considered appropriate
for
other AA groups to use if they chose to. Twenty-Four Hours a Day was
sponsored
by the Daytona Beach group in Florida, and The Little Red Book was sponsored
by
the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The New York AA office was
selling
copies of The Little Red Book all over the U.S. during the latter 1940's.

Bobby Burger's letter also establishes the date at which the pamphlet has to
have been written: probably in the summer of 1943, but well before the Fall
of
1944, by which time the New York AA office was telling people that they
regarded
it as a very useful tool to use in teaching beginners.

A merchant sailor later arrived in Seattle, Washington, and had with him a
copy
of the version which the AA group in Washington D.C. had printed up. Seattle
then printed it for the use of AA groups on the West Coast. That is the
version
you have, Paula.

The AA group in Oklahoma City also printed their own version of the pamphlet
during the early AA period, and other groups may have also. It was extremely
popular.

If you ask the question "what would the AA people have taught you when you
walked into your first AA meetings back in the early AA period?" this
pamphlet
will tell you what these old timers thought were the most important things
to
understand, the simple things you needed to know from the very beginning, in
order to work a good AA program.

This little pamphlet, along with the big print sections at the top of the
pages
in Twenty-Four Hours a Day and The Little Red Book, tells us how AA people
all
across the U.S. and Canada actually worked the program during the 1940's,
and
how they took the teachings of the Big Book (which had just come out in
1939)
and applied them in practice in everyday life.

Or in other words, if you ask "what was early AA really like?" this little
pamphlet is one of the things that you need to read and study carefully. How
did they talk about finding a higher power? How did people do their fourth
step? What role did the Bible play? Did the vast majority of ordinary AA
people call alcoholism a disease, an illness, a malady, or what? Did they
describe themselves as recovered, recovering, or cured? If they did not talk
about the Four Absolutes, what was the list of virtues which they encouraged
us
to pursue instead as we attempted to grow in the spiritual life?

All of these questions can be answered clearly and easily by reading through
this pamphlet which the old timer gave you, along with the big print
sections at
the tops of the pages in Twenty-Four Hours a Day, The Little Red Book, and a
few
other things, such as, for example, the early Akron pamphlets and the early
Akron list of books which they suggested that newcomers read.

(See http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html for the early Akron pamphlets and
the
old Akron reading list for A.A. beginners, and also beware, the copies of
these
pamphlets which Akron is publishing now have been altered without making any
indication that anything was changed or left out, so that for example, the
reading list of ten recommended books has been removed from the version of
"A
Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous" which is presently being sold. Hazelden has
also made alterations in The Little Red Book without telling the reader, so
that
the version they are currently selling is not what early AA people were
actually
reading. Please excuse the editorial note, but there are people today, both
within AA and without, who believe that they are more intelligent than these
old
timers and that they need to rewrite the historical AA Heritage and change
everything, which can cause problems for those who wish to have an accurate
knowledge of the AA Heritage so they can preserve it and pass it on as it
was
actually practiced by the good old timers. That is not the spirit of the
AAHistoryLovers.)

But to sum up, this little pamphlet called the Table Mate which the old
timer
gave you, is an important part of the AA Heritage, and gives you a very good
picture of how early AA people actually worked and lived the twelve steps.

Glenn C. (South Bend IN)

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++++Message 2614. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s Scientific Interest in
Energy Conversion
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2005 7:10:00 PM

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Hi Friends:

When I was working on "Pass It On" in the early '80s, I learned that Bill W.
had served for a few years on the board of Energy Conversion Laboratories, a
research firm founded by a colorful inventor named Stanford Ovshinsky. I
interviewed Ovshinsky by telephone, and here is how it appeared on page 380
of
the book:

"In the early 1960's, Bill became involved in a new idea for converting heat
into electricity. Although national concern about the energy shortage was
still
ten years away, Bill was, as usual, years ahead of his time. Stan Ovshinsky,
a
Detroit inventoir, had developed what he thought was a new, cheap way of
converting heat directly into electricity. Ovshinsky's company, Energy
Conversion Laboratories, was formed to market the idea, and the inventor
needed
help with both capitalizing his project and selling it. Humphrey Osmond
introduced him to Bill; as Osmond said, Bill was one of the few people who
possessed a combination of financial knowledge, scientific imagination, and
altruism.

Ovshinsky summarized Bill's involvement with the project: 'He saw what we
were doing in those days, and became very excited about it. We were not
really
in business at that time; we were more of a research group doing something
he
was interested in, and he wanted to help out every way he could. He was
involved in my thinking about energy conversion, photovoltaics, thermal
electricity. He was very forward-looking and thought that we were going to
make
it someday. I wish he was alive to see what progress we have made. He really
was one of the most exceptional and unique people ever in the world.'

Ovshinsky's company was speculative, but it still exists. In 1977, The Wall
Street Journal ran a page one story about his theories; in addition,
Standard
Oil of Ohio invested heavily in his company."

Ovshinsky has been publicized from time to time, and I've always taken note
of
the articles because of Bill's involvement. Last Friday's Toledo Blade ran a
fine column of Ovshinsky by Jack Lessenberry, whom I know. It is attached to
this email. I'm sure that Bill would have felt quite proud of the progress
Stan
has made and also because he may be the primary person in moving us into the
age
of hydrogen-powered cars.

Mel Barger

~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com

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++++Message 2615. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Change in 12 step work?
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2005 5:26:00 PM

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Hi Bent

First off, my appeal would be to make the two 12th Step approaches
complementary rather than view them as mutually exclusive. A pamphlet
is simply an end product piece of literature derived from the informed
group conscience of a body (usually a committee) of AA members.
Pamphlets do not enjoy the status of law or directive and exist to
inform not to dictate. The same is true of the Big Book. I believe it
was designed to be interpreted spiritually, not legalistically.

While it may sound like heresy, I do not view the Big Book as the
be-all, end-all, and absolute final word on how to do this or that.
Some in AA, with good intention and sincerity, have elevated the Big
Book to the status of inerrant scripture. As a consequence, discussion
of its contents too often evolves into a debate over correctness of
procedure at the expense of the illumination of spiritual substance
and God-given common sense.

In the commentary on Step 11 The Big Book states “Under these
conditions we can employ our mental faculties with assurance, for
after all God gave us brains to use.” On the last page of the basic
text it further states “Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We
realize we know only a little.” From what I understand of our Steps,
Traditions and Concepts, you are free to take whatever approach you
deem to be appropriate. When encountering opposing viewpoints my
suggestion is to let your guidance come from Step 11 (plus it doesn’t
hurt to talk it over at length with your sponsor and other members
that you trust - God has a marvelous way of working through people).

From my own observations in the US, there appears to be a marked
tendency toward waiting for prospects to show up at a group rather
than going out and finding them. I’ve talked to some old-timers who
are discouraged by this trend - I don’t like it either.

Locally (in Northeast Texas) there is so much emphasis on attending
meetings that some members view meetings as the ultimate in 12th Step
work. From my own point of view, I look at meetings as being the
dessert of AA. The “main course” is learning the Steps, living them
and trying to help another alcoholic do the same thing.

Our local Intergroup (or Central) Office fields phone calls that
result in 12th Step calls, but this too requires either the prospect,
or someone close to them, making the first move (i.e. the phone call).
We are also experiencing quite a few cases of criminal courts (and
attorneys) having defendants attend AA meetings. Many view themselves
as being “sentenced” to AA as a form of disciplinary action rather
than an opportunity for discovery.

On the plus side, there are many group, District and Area service
committee members that maintain an active outreach to the prison/jail
and treatment center populations. However, a number of local Treatment
Centers have a practice of clustering their patients under the
umbrella issue of “substance abuse” and refer patients to AA that
really belong in a different Fellowship (i.e. they have no drinking
history).

I don’t know if there is a definite, all inclusive, answer to the
question “should the still suffering alcoholic contact AA or AA
contact the still suffering alcoholic?” I guess my answer would have
to be “yes they should” (grin).

Cheers
Arthur

________________________________________
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bent Christensen
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 3:13 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Change in 12 step work?

In Denmark one of our pamphlets states something like this:
AA members may contact an alcoholic who seeks help but prefer that
the alcoholic themselves handles that first step.

This obviously means that we expect the still suffering alcoholic to
contact AA and not vice versa.

I do think it is like that in most of the world.

On the other hand, if you read The Big Book it shows that Ebby went
to Bill on his own. Bill definitely sought Dr. Bob in order to keep
himself sober and they found Bill D. in order to stay sober
themselves.

This is stated throughout the book, for instance from Chapter
7 "Working with Others"

"When you discover a prospect for Alcoholics Anonymous, find out
all you can about him. If he does not want to stop drinking, don't
waste time trying to persuade him. You may spoil a later opportunity.
This advice is given for his family also. They should be patient,
realizing they are dealing with a sick person.

If there is any indication that he wants to stop, have a good talk
with the person most interested in him--usually his wife. Get an idea
of his behaviour, his problems, his background, the seriousness of
his condition, and his religious leanings. You need this information
to put yourself in his place, to see how you would like him to
approach you if the tables were turned.

Do not be discouraged if your prospect does not respond at once.
Search out another alcoholic and try again."

So it seems to me that there has been a change here. Does anyone know
when this changed and that case why?

Best wishes
Bent

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++++Message 2616. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Letters in "As Bill Sees It"
From: crog1@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2005 1:44:00 AM

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Where is the full collection of Bill W.'s letters archived?

In a message dated 8/25/2005, ny-aa@... writes: "As Bill Sees It" refers us
to
sources from many A.A. books and Grapevine issues. It is easy to read those
quoted passage in context. But what about the letters? Where can we look to
see
the complete letters from which the short quotes were taken? And maybe even
the
letter that Bill was answering? For example: ABSI Page 191 letter 1966.
______________________________

Wonderful question. I have often wondered about this myself. Are these
letters
archived somewhere, New York? And is that the only way they are accessible?

Thanks, enquiring minds want to know. Blessings, Chris R

______________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

All of these letters that you are referring to are in the New York AA
Archives.

Can anyone in the AAHistoryLovers tell our membership what the current rules
and
procedures are for researchers into AA history who wish to obtain access to
Bill
W.'s papers? They have increasingly been putting more and more restrictions
on
using their archives for research. I have been told by some people at the
National Archives Workshops that it helps enormously if you can get the
Delegate
from your Area to back you. If you wish to write Rick Tompkins at
<ricktompkins@comcast.net>, he can fill you in on some of these problems.

There are other useful AA archives, although I do not believe that any of
them
contain all of the letters from and to Bill W. which are contained in the
New
York AA Archives:

The Chester Kirk Archives at Brown University contains Charlie Bishop's
enormous
collection of early AA materials, Ernie Kurtz's books and papers, and also
all
the papers and memorabilia from Sue Smith Windows, Clarence Snyder, and the
NCADD (originally the National Council on Alcoholism, which Mrs. Marty Mann
founded). Ernie Kurtz tells me that they are in the process of obtaining
Marty's
papers from Syracuse.

Hazelden also has an archives, although I do not know how well it is being
kept
up at present, now that Bill Pittman is no longer with them.

There are some archival materials at Stepping Stones which are, I believe,
unobtainable elsewhere.

Mary Darrah tells me that the archives at Akron also contain materials on
early
AA history which are not in the New York AA Archives.

Glenn C. (South Bend IN)

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++++Message 2617. . . . . . . . . . . . Questions on Multilith Copy
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2005 1:43:00 PM

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I have several questions relating to the "Multilith Copy" or, as it
is sometimes called, the "Original Manuscript" of the Big Book and
would appreciate any help that people on this forum might be able to
offer.

Let me preface this by noting that my questions arise from a copy of
the Multilith version of the Big Book that I own. It was originally,
Jim Burwell's copy (he was the early member from New York who is
credited with the addition of "as we understood Him" to the 3rd
Step) and comes with several of his hand-written notes and comments.
The provenance of this book is impeccable – having been bought from
Jim's niece who received it from her brother who got if from Jim's
wife, Rosa, after he died in 1974. Rosa's hand-written note to her
nephew confirms all of this.

That being said, there are a number of problems.

1. A recent posting here noted that Tom Uzzell – who reputedly did
some heavy editing to the text of our Big Book – had a pre-multilith
copy of the manuscript in his hands on January 4, 1939.

Jim's already-printed multilith copy has a hand-written date on the
title page saying "#2 Copy / Dec. 8, 1938".

This date is VERY specific but how is this possible if the multilith
copy had not yet been printed?

2. At some point, Jim's copy was rebound and the new cover
says "Book No. 2 / of the / First Hundred Mimeographed / Copies"

How many copies were multilithed? I have heard both 400 (most
common) and 200 (less common) but not 100.

3. I have seen two other multilith copies and in both of them, the
title page reads "ALCOHOLIC'S / ANONYMOUS" – with a grammatically
incorrect hyphen. I have read Ernie Kurtz's description of a
multilith copy that he inspected at the AA Archives and he also
notes the inaccurate hyphen.

Jim's copy has NO hyphen.

Were there more than one multilith printing before the book was
published?

Any help with these questions would be appreciated.

Old Bill

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++++Message 2618. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fred & Jim?
From: Dick . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2005 2:24:00 PM

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A question was asked about Fred and Jim in Message 2595 from:
"friendofbillw89"
<friendofbillw89@yahoo.com> Date: Thu Aug 18, 2005 Subject: Fred & Jim?

Does anyone know the history or biographies of Jim and Fred who are written
about in *More about Alcoholism?*

Denisa
_____________________________

See Post 2301. A detailed answer is given there by Jim Blair
<jblair@videotron.ca>, lester gother, and Diz Titcher

Dick Spaedt

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++++Message 2619. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The "Table Mate" and the good
old timers
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2005 9:00:00 PM

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The original beginners classes in 1941 were held at the Crawford Road
Men's Group in the cleveland, OH area. There was a reference to a
group from Washington DC making inquiry about the beginners classes
mentioned in an early Cleveland Central Bulletin. These classes have
been taught throughout the US over the years and Wally P.'s Back To
Basics is based upon the early classes.

________________________________

A FURTHER NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR:

This is another claim to the authorship of the Table Mate (aka Detroit
pamphlet,
aka Washington DC pamphlet):

(1) As we see here, Mitchell K., who is an expert on Cleveland AA history,
believes that the material originally came from Cleveland, based on the
reference in that early Cleveland Central Bulletin.

(2) Jack H. (who has Ed Webster's papers) argues that it was Ed who actually
wrote the pamphlet. Ed Webster was the one who wrote the Little Red Book in
1946. Jack argues that the pamphlet was originally used as a handout for the
beginners classes which Ed taught in Minneapolis beginning in May 1942 at
2218
First Avenue South. There is an early Instructor's Outline for the
Minneapolis
classes where we can see a few phrases which also appear verbatim in the
Table
Mate.

(3) The substantive parts of Wally P.'s book, Back to Basics, are in fact
copied
verbatim from the pamphlet, which Wally tends to refer to as the Washington
D.C.
pamphlet in his book. If you take a copy of the pamphlet (see
http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html) and compare it with the book Back to
Basics, it
is easy to see all of the many sections which Wally copied out word or word.

(4) The Washington D.C. version seems to have been the first version set in
type
by a commercial printer. At any rate, it seems to be the earliest printed
version which anyone has in any AA archives. (If I am wrong on this, I hope
a
member of the web group will correct me.)

This does not mean that an earlier version of the pamphlet did not exist,
perhaps done in mimeographed form. Cleveland? Minneapolis? Detroit?

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend)

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++++Message 2620. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: National Archives
Workshop//cancelled
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/31/2005 2:14:00 PM

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HOSTS FOR THE
10th Annual National Archives Workshop

NOTICE: The Workshop
planned for New Orleans has been
POSTPONED
due to the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina
Please check back here for more information later in September!
Attempts are being made to relocate and reschedule.
PLEASE KEEP THE PEOPLE OF NEW ORLEANS AND THE GULF COAST
IN YOUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS

____________________________
From the moderator:

Another message has been passed on from the AA people in Louisiana, which I
am
including with Shakey Mike's anouncement.

Hi, Don M. Panel 55, Area 27 (Louisiana) here. I am just getting some very
limited and sporadic email access after Hurricane Katrina, and we are
overwhelmed and touched by the outpouring of AA love and support that we are
receiving from around the AA world. Along with many others, my family and I
evacuated from the New Orleans area before Hurricane Katrina devastated our
city
and homes. AAs across the Gulf South are spread out throughout the country.

Communication is tough. No one with whom I have spoken seriously expected
the
evacuation to last the length of time now suggested - months, much less the
damages experienced. We are crushed that we will not be hosting ICYPAA this
coming weekend, but we promise that we will make up for it when we get up
and
going.

Things are still very much in a confused state throughout the Gulf South.
For
now, we are trying to find each other, and verify that our fellows are safe,
and
determine if we can be of service to them and their loved ones.

There have been hundreds of emails from AAs from everywhere AA is. In all
appropriate cases, I will post these on our website, consistent of course
with
our Traditions. I haven't yet had a chance to read all of them, much less to
respond. Each one that I read brings tears to my eyes, and I am not one to
cry.
The love and fellowship in AA is powerful beyond words, at least words I can
express. Please pray for our fellows.

Now the good news. I have been able to speak with numerous AAs with stories
of
great individual loss and personal tragedy. The tremendous hope and serenity
that our steps and traditions bring are evident in all of them with whom I
have
spoken. The dominant theme in each conversation is "to whom can I be of
service?" In the face of these challenges, a drink hasn't been an answer or
solution to the scores of us with whom I have spoken. Challenged, confused,
angry, lost and scared - sure. Drunk or drinking - no.

We love each of you, and we will make it through these challenging times,
following the excellent example of many, many of our fellows who have faced
adversity and tragedy and actually shown gratitude for their lives.
Consistent
with our primary purpose, and of course our three legacies of recovery,
unity
and service, we assure you that we will find suffering alcoholics to whom we
hope to carry our experience, strength and hope.

We hope to meet with you soon on the [dry] road to happy destiny.

Don M.
Panel 55 / Area 27

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++++Message 2621. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant September Dates in A.A.
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/1/2005 4:59:00 AM

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Sept 1930 - Bill wrote 4th (last) promise in family Bible to quit
drinking.
Sept 1939 - group started by Earl T in Chicago.
Sept 1940 - AA group started in Toledo by Duke P & others.
Sept 1940 - Journal of Nervous and Mental Diseases gives Big Book
unfavorable review.
Sept 1946 - Bill & Dr. Bob both publicly endorsed National Committee
Education Alcoholism founded by Marty M.
Sept 1946 - 1st A.A. group in Mexico.
Sept 1948 - Bob writes article for Grapevine on AA "Fundamentals -
In Retrospect".
Sept 1949 - 1st issue of Grapevine published in "pocketbook" size.
Sept 1, 1939 - 1st AA group founded in Chicago.
Sept 11, 2001 - 30 Vesey St, New York. Location of AA's first office
is destroyed during the World Trade Center attack.
Sept 12, 1942 - U.S. Assist. Surgeon General Kolb speaks at dinner
for Bill and Dr Bob.
Sept 13, 1937 - Florence R, 1st female in AA in NY.
Sept 13, 1941 - WHJP in Jacksonville, FL airs Spotlight on AA.
Sept 17, 1954 - Bill D, AA #3 dies.
Sept 18, 1947 - Dallas Central Office opens its doors.
Sept 19, 1965 - The Saturday Evening Post publishes
article "Alcoholics Can Be Cured - Despite AA"
Sept 19, 1975 - Jack Alexander, author of original Saturday Evening
Post article, dies.
Sept 21, 1938 - Bill W & Hank P form Works Publishing Co.
Sept 24, 1940 - Bill 12th steps Bobbie V, who later replaced Ruth
Hock as his secretary in NY.
Sept 30, 1939 - article in Liberty magazine, "Alcoholics and God" by
Morris Markey.

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++++Message 2622. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Questions on Multilith Copy
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/1/2005 1:04:00 PM

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Bill wrote
Jim's already-printed multilith copy has a hand-written date on the title
page saying "#2 Copy / Dec. 8, 1938".

This date is VERY specific but how is this possible if the multilith copy
had not yet been printed?

Is the text the same as the "multilith copy?" Multilith is a specific
printing process and other copies may have been produced under a different
process.

Have you talked to Judith Santon, Archivist at the GSO?
Jim

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++++Message 2623. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Questions on Multilith Copy
From: Tom Everman . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/1/2005 2:16:00 PM

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I have an audiotape of a talk that Jim Burwell gave in 1952. In the course
of this talk Jim mentions that he lost his copy of the multi-lith and how
deeply he regretted losing it. Perhaps the copy mentioned here is
questionable.

--- schaberg43 <schaberg@aol.com> wrote:

> I have several questions relating to the "Multilith Copy" or, as it
> is sometimes called, the "Original Manuscript" of the Big Book and
> would appreciate any help that people on this forum might be able to
> offer.
>
> Let me preface this by noting that my questions arise from a copy of
> the Multilith version of the Big Book that I own. It was originally,
> Jim Burwell's copy (he was the early member from New York who is
> credited with the addition of "as we understood Him" to the 3rd
> Step) and comes with several of his hand-written notes and comments.
> The provenance of this book is impeccable – having been bought from
> Jim's niece who received it from her brother who got if from Jim's
> wife, Rosa, after he died in 1974. Rosa's hand-written note to her
> nephew confirms all of this.
>
> That being said, there are a number of problems.
>
> 1. A recent posting here noted that Tom Uzzell – who reputedly did
> some heavy editing to the text of our Big Book – had a pre-multilith
> copy of the manuscript in his hands on January 4, 1939.
>
> Jim's already-printed multilith copy has a hand-written date on the
> title page saying "#2 Copy / Dec. 8, 1938".
>
> This date is VERY specific but how is this possible if the multilith
> copy had not yet been printed?
>
> 2. At some point, Jim's copy was rebound and the new cover
> says "Book No. 2 / of the / First Hundred Mimeographed / Copies"
>
> How many copies were multilithed? I have heard both 400 (most
> common) and 200 (less common) but not 100.
>
> 3. I have seen two other multilith copies and in both of them, the
> title page reads "ALCOHOLIC'S / ANONYMOUS" – with a grammatically
> incorrect hyphen. I have read Ernie Kurtz's description of a
> multilith copy that he inspected at the AA Archives and he also
> notes the inaccurate hyphen.
>
> Jim's copy has NO hyphen.
>
> Were there more than one multilith printing before the book was
> published?
>
> Any help with these questions would be appreciated.
>
> Old Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

tome

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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++++Message 2624. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Questions on Multilith Copy
From: TH . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/1/2005 3:54:00 PM

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In message 2617 <schaberg@aol.com> = Old Bill wrote:

'I have several questions relating to the "Multilith Copy" or, as it is
sometimes called, the "Original Manuscript" of the Big Book.'

I started school in 1945 and graduated college in 1961.

There was a distinction between multilith printing and mimeograph printing,
the
former being of better quality. Both produced copies with black letters on
white paper. Ditto, on the other hand, produced blue letters.

Old Bill uses both multilith and mimeograph and I wonder if he was making a
distinction between the two or using them interchangeably?

Tommy in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 2625. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Questions on Multilith Copy
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/1/2005 2:58:00 PM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Everman
<tom2cor134@y...> wrote:

"I have an audiotape of a talk that Jim Burwell gave in 1952. In
the course of this talk Jim mentions that he lost his copy of the
multi-lith and how deeply he regretted losing it. Perhaps the copy
mentioned here is questionable."

I have heard that tape and asked the neice who sold me the book
about it. She said that the book had been recovered and, because
Jim's name was in the book, it was returned to him.

Regarding another comment here, this is in fact a multilith copy. My
family business was printing so I am familiar with the process and
the resulting copy. In addition, it looks identical in paper tone
and printing (very mixed quality) to the other multilith copies I
have seen.

On another note, I stumbled across a RECENTLY REPRODUCED copy of the
multilith version of the Big Book that was reputedly made from the
orginal owned by Clarence Snyder, the Home Brwemeister. In that
reproduced copy, there is no apostraphe in the the word "Alcoholics"
on the title page.

Two printings?

Bill

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++++Message 2626. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Questions on Multilith Copy
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/1/2005 8:33:00 PM

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Hi Old Bob, I believe you are refering to a letter I posted from Hank
P. to Bill dated January of 1939 regarding a positive review of a big
book manuscript by Tom Uzzell of Colliers (and later Look) Magazine
who was the professional editor thereafter. Your questions are good,
took about twelve pages of my manuscript to address and in some cases
remain unresolved. I read the entire GSO and Stepping Stones Archives
from 1935-42 looking for answers to these issues and this should
demonstrate that there are still pieces of the puzzle that are
unclear. I determined that people like myself are incredibly
inaccurate with dates even one day after the fact. I recall seeing a
copy of the manuscript you describe and the curious date with Jim's
notations and being familiar with his handwriting and having an
original letter of his for comparison having no doubt that it was his
handwriting. I've also seen full multiliths in two different fonts
(not including the first two chapters in reverse order that were
mailed out in mid-1938). In 1938-9 they used the old rotary
mimeographs which were only good for a short run and then a new sheet
would have to be retyped as they were not typeset.

I've seen two typed histories by Jim one national and one local to
Philly which I assume you've seen. With respect to the national
history Bill is second only to Jim with respect to date and sequence
problems. He may be more accurate in the local history. (this is not
to say I'd remember dates any better without source documents in front
of me).

It is possible that there were multiple runs as Ruth stated there were
at least 40 drafts and 800 pages handed to Uzzell which also doesn't
line up with the correspondence. Here's a few entries that may be of
interest:

On November 3, 1938 Bill sent Dr. Bob a letter enclosing the first 5
chapters. Source GSO Archives mf of original.

On February 11, 1939 Fitz wrote to Henry G. P__ [Hank] at Bill's
address, 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn Heights.

"NO TITLE CAN BE REGISTERED IN COPYRIGHT OFFICE TO SECURE MONOPOLY ON
ITS USE STOP LIBRARY OF CONGRESS HAS 25 BOOKS THE WAY OUT 12 THE WAY
NINE THIS WAY OUT NONE ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS NONE COMES DAWN MY PET
STOP OUR TRIP TO BROOKLYN DEFINITELY OFF-BUISNESS BRISKER AM WRITING.:
FITZ"

The above is an exact transcription I made from the original Western
Union Telegram Fitz, convenietly [sp?] located near Washington, sent
to Bill. Note that Bill's Story about not wanting to be the 13th
anything doesn't seem to fit with the original.

There is a beautiful blue prototype at Stepping Stones Archives for,
"The Way Out, by anonymous alcoholics", that everyone should see.

There are several other documents mentioning the multilithe. Please
feel free to email me as they are too long here. It is possible that
there were other drafts, maybe many.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Everman <tom2cor134@y...>
wrote:
> I have an audiotape of a talk that Jim Burwell gave in 1952. In the
course
> of this talk Jim mentions that he lost his copy of the multi-lith
and how
> deeply he regretted losing it. Perhaps the copy mentioned here is
> questionable.
>
> --- schaberg43 <schaberg@a...> wrote:
>
> > I have several questions relating to the "Multilith Copy" or, as it
> > is sometimes called, the "Original Manuscript" of the Big Book and
> > would appreciate any help that people on this forum might be able to
> > offer.
> >
> > Let me preface this by noting that my questions arise from a copy of
> > the Multilith version of the Big Book that I own. It was originally,
> > Jim Burwell's copy (he was the early member from New York who is
> > credited with the addition of "as we understood Him" to the 3rd
> > Step) and comes with several of his hand-written notes and comments.
> > The provenance of this book is impeccable – having been bought from
> > Jim's niece who received it from her brother who got if from Jim's
> > wife, Rosa, after he died in 1974. Rosa's hand-written note to her
> > nephew confirms all of this.
> >
> > That being said, there are a number of problems.
> >
> > 1. A recent posting here noted that Tom Uzzell – who reputedly did
> > some heavy editing to the text of our Big Book – had a pre-multilith
> > copy of the manuscript in his hands on January 4, 1939.
> >
> > Jim's already-printed multilith copy has a hand-written date on the
> > title page saying "#2 Copy / Dec. 8, 1938".
> >
> > This date is VERY specific but how is this possible if the multilith
> > copy had not yet been printed?
> >
> > 2. At some point, Jim's copy was rebound and the new cover
> > says "Book No. 2 / of the / First Hundred Mimeographed / Copies"
> >
> > How many copies were multilithed? I have heard both 400 (most
> > common) and 200 (less common) but not 100.
> >
> > 3. I have seen two other multilith copies and in both of them, the
> > title page reads "ALCOHOLIC'S / ANONYMOUS" – with a grammatically
> > incorrect hyphen. I have read Ernie Kurtz's description of a
> > multilith copy that he inspected at the AA Archives and he also
> > notes the inaccurate hyphen.
> >
> > Jim's copy has NO hyphen.
> >
> > Were there more than one multilith printing before the book was
> > published?
> >
> > Any help with these questions would be appreciated.
> >
> > Old Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> tome
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

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++++Message 2627. . . . . . . . . . . . Hurricane Katrina: Big Books and
12x12s
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2005 5:21:00 PM

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Baton Rouge, Louisiana, which is west of New Orleans and inland, and was not
so
badly hit by hurricane Katrina and its aftermath, is coordinating efforts to
help AA people in the areas which have suffered so much destruction. Passed
on
to me by Meri R., the Northern Indiana Area 22 delegate.
_______________________________________

I received this E-mail from Bob S in Richmond Ind. I verified the address
for
Baton Rouge Central Office on the Lousiana Website. Good Luck and God Bless!

Subject: Help for AA Katrina victims

Hello from Baton Rouge AA Central Office.

We are desperately seeking donations to purchase AA big books and 12x12's to
bring to the shelters here, not only in Baton Rouge, which are filled to
capacity, but to the other areas we service that have set up shelters. If
you
would like to make a monetary contribution, the soft cover Big Books are $6
with
tax and the soft cover 12x12's are $6.50 with tax. I will put you a return
receipt in the mail. Thanks to the generosity of the AA community all over
the
United States. We have had calls from California, Massachusetts, North
Carolina,
Florida, Maryland and areas in our precious state that have power, to offer
their homes to fellow AA members, to offer literature, AA meetings,clothes,
their time, you name it! Thanks Bill and Dr. Bob and all our friends for the
hand of AA that know no boundaries!

You may reach us at 225-924-0030 during the weekend. We have real AA people
answering the phones, but if you can't reach us, our phones are tied up with
many important calls, so keep trying or should I say trudging!

Our address is:

Baton Rouge AA Central Office, 8312 Florida Blvd. Suite 213-A, Baton Rouge,
La.
70806

Again, words cannot express our thanks to each and every one of you!

Joy

_______________________________________

FROM: Henry (Hank) S., Delegate Area 56, Panel 54 Southwest Ohio

www.aaarea56.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2628. . . . . . . . . . . . Further Multi-Lith (photo-lith)
Source Documents
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2005 3:45:00 AM

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[Hi Old Bob, Here's another piece of information that would probably
be of interest regarding the multilith. Again the source is Black
Sheep and its source was an exact transcription from GSO Archives mf
of original I made in the early 90's.

On February 21, 1939 Rockerfeller Foundation exec Frank Amos wrote to
co-exec Mr. Richardson,]

[additions, corrections or deleletions always in brackets]

[...]

"The photo-litho copies of the book has been carefully edited, but the
individual stories, occupying the last half of the book, still must
undergo considerable editing. Also there are a number of stories to be
added, most of them, I believe, from Akron. If you will let me or Bill
know how many of those photo-litho copies you would like to have, he
will see to it that you get them at once. They are quite legible, but
of course are put up in cheap form and cannot be compared in
attractiveness and readibility to the final printed volume."

[ . . .]

STOP

[I have no notation of the original reported letter from Dr. Howard, a
psychiatrist from Montclair N.J. where Hank (and around that time Bill
as well having to vacate Brooklyn Heights, and probably also Jim as
per his story) lived at this time. This is generally refered to as the
primary source of objection to the "directions" and "you musts" that
are prevelent throughout the "multi-liths". The date of this
correspondence would be helpful to track down and it may be in Ernie
Kurtz's, Not God, footnotes.]

Finally I need to clarify my last statement regarding Bill not wanting
to be the thirteenth anything. In his accounting in AACOA he says he
doesn't want to be the 13th anything with respect to the name "The Way
Out" which was the favorite title at the time and which the prototype
dust cover bears. Note that there were 25 "The Way Outs" reported by
Fitz but the story wouldn't make sense if he was accurate. These
incredibly minor variations mean nothing by themselves but when
analyzing groups of them what really happened seems to emerge.

Please post anything new you discover.]

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++++Message 2629. . . . . . . . . . . . The first intergroups
From: friendofbillw89 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2005 9:02:00 PM

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I live in Area 53 (Central and Southeast Ohio) and we have the third oldest
Intergroup. What are the two oldest? I assume ot's Akron and Cleveland, but
of
course I could be wrong. Does anybody out there know?

Denisa

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++++Message 2630. . . . . . . . . . . . Instinct based Psychology
From: hoojgs . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2005 9:45:00 PM

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I am new to this group and have a learned a great deal already as I am
reading
through the postings. I saw Glenn C's post number 1930 which referenced one
source which may have influenced Bill's writing in the 12/12 abouts
instincts in
excess. I have tried to find documentation of psychological theories tied to
mans natural instincts myself without much success. I am wondering if there
are
others who may have turned up related material.

Thanks in advance,
Jim

_________________________________

FROM GLENN C:
Message 1930 refers to the psychologist Ernest Ligon as one possible source
of
Bill W.'s ideas about the natural instincts, and the influence on Ligon of
the
Neo-Freudian psychiatrists and psychologists, particularly Alfred Adler and
F.
H. Allport.
Jim is asking whether anyone in the group can give additional information
about
psychological theories of the natural instincts current in that period,
which
might also have influenced Bill W.'s ideas. The Big Book was written in
1939,
and already assumed this theory of the instincts in Bill W.'s treatment of
the
Fourth Step. The 12 & 12 was written in 1952. So we are mainly interested in
psychological theories which appeared before 1939, and we will have to
totally
exclude books and articles on psychology which did not appear until after
1951.
That will help narrow things down a little bit.
---------------------------------------------------
For Bill W.'s theory of instincts in excess see the Big Book page 65 (the
third
column). See also the Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions, chapter on the
Fourth
Step (pp. 42 to 54). There is also a little about this theory in the chapter
on
the Sixth Step (pp. 63 to 69).
---------------------------------------------------
There is more about Bill's theory at: http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang6.html,
the
first few sections of Chapter 6, on "The Balanced Life: Seeking the Golden
Mean"
(a) Seeking the Golden Mean between the two extremes
(b) The Bicycle Principle
(c) The Pancake Principle
---------------------------------------------------
I believe that Jim is referring in his post to the part of Message 1930
which
talks about Ernest Ligon's book, which was one of the books on the Akron
Reading
List from the early 1940's, a list of ten books which newcomers to AA were
encouraged to read in order to find out more about AA.
(http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html). This section of Message 1930 reads as
follows:

ERNEST M. LIGON, The Psychology of Christian Personality (1935, in its 18th
printing by 1950, 407 pages long). In this book, Ligon analyzed the Sermon
on
the Mount and its relationship to modern psychology. Ligon was deeply
influenced
by the Neo-Freudians: the goal was to fully "integrate" the personality, and
deal with problems in the individual's socialization, and so on. In the
bibliography at the back of his book, he mentioned two books by the Austrian
psychiatrist Alfred Adler (1870-1937), but one can see the influence of
other
Neo-Freudian psychiatrists as well. F. H. Allport's Social Psychology was
also
listed in his bibliography (he was the brother of the psychologist Gordon W.
Allport). The citing of this fundamental work on social psychology indicated
the
special importance of social factors in Ligon's psychological thought.
The term Neo-Freudian refers to a group of psychiatrists including Alfred
Adler,
Karen Horney, Harry Stack Sullivan, Eric Fromm, and Erik Erikson. Carl Jung
is
sometimes also included in this group, but his ideas had no role in Ligon's
thought. The Neo-Freudians whom we are talking about here modified orthodox
Freudian doctrine by talking about the importance of other issues such as
social
factors, interpersonal relations, and cultural influences in personality
development and in the development of psychological illnesses and disorders.
They believed that social relationships were fundamental to the formation
and
development of personality. They tended to reject Freud's emphasis on sexual
problems as the cause of neurosis, and were more apt to regard fundamental
human
pscyhological problems as psychosocial rather than psychosexual.
The two great dangers to spiritual and psychological health, Ligon said,
were
inappropriate (1) anger and (2) fear - - the same basic position as the Big
Book. He defined what was meant by the "natural instincts" in ways closely
similar to the chapter on the Fourth Step in Twelve Steps and Twelve
Traditions.
My feeling here is that Bill W. must have either read this book, or read
somebody closely similar, or picked up some of Ligon's ideas from talking to
people who had read this book.
---------------------------------------------------
The full list of books which were recommended to AA newcomers in early Akron
AA
was:
Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book).
The Holy Bible (especially the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the
letter of
James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91).
The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond.
The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee).
As a Man Thinketh, James Allen.
The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.).
The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades.
Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.).
Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones.
The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton.
---------------------------------------------------

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++++Message 2631. . . . . . . . . . . . Source of Quote
From: TH . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2005 5:43:00 PM

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The following appeared in one of those Thought for the Day emails:

As to the AA therapy itself, that could be practiced in any fashion that the
group wished to practice it, and the same went for every individual. We took
the
position that AA was not the final word on treatment; that it might be only
the
first word. For us, it became perfectly safe to tell people they could
experiment with our therapy in any way they liked.

-- Bill W.

I haven't been able to find it in my resources and the source of it doesn't
remember specifically where he got it, so I am appealing to the list for its
source.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2632. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Instinct based Psychology
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2005 6:21:00 PM

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In Message #2630, Jim ("hoojgs" <hoojgs@yahoo.com>) wrote:

"I have tried to find documentation of psychological theories tied to mans
natural instincts myself without much success. I am wondering if there are
others who may have turned up related material."

Dr. Karen Horney, a psychiatrist and author of The Neurotic Personality of
Our
Time (1937) had an influence on Bill W. and particularly the chapter which
examines how all neurosis manifests itself in a drive for money, power and
prestige.

Also, Harry Stack Sullivan who authored "A Note On The Implications of
Psychiatry, The Study Of Interpersonal Relations, For Investigation In The
Social Sciences. (American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 42, July 1936-May
1937,
pp848-861).

Jim B.

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++++Message 2633. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Instinct based Psychology
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2005 7:50:00 AM

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William McDougal as another possible source of this particular theory
involving
instinct:

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jim = "hoojgs" <hoojgs@y...> wrote:
"I have tried to find documentation of psychological theories tied to mans
natural instincts myself without much success. I am wondering if there are
others who may have turned up related material."

There does seem to have been a particular theory involving instinct which
was in
vogue in the 1920's and 30's. It was primarily associated with a
psychologist
by the name of William McDougal. I'm actually not sure if it rose to the
level
of theory, or if it was simply a terminology. The term "instinct" was used
more
freely at the time to refer to fundamental consistencies in human behavior.

I have not seen the Lignon book Glenn mentions, but I found this in a later
book
he wrote(Dimensions of Character, 1956):

"Finally, it is not impossible to identify some widely common varieties of
human
behavior, which McDougall called instincts. If you will read McDougall's
book,
even today, you will be impressed by how convincing it is. We do not any
longer
identify these consistencies with the concept of instinct, as he did.
Nevertheless, the consistencies are there when looked at from a relevant
point
of view."

If Lignon is correct that the concept of instinct was not used in the same
way
by the 1950's, then you may have a hard time finding much about it in later
references.

Among those who were impressed by McDougall (at the time) were Elwood
Worcester
and Samuel McComb of the Emmanuel movement. It was their book, Body Mind and
Spirit (1931), that got me interested in McDougall. McDougall also had an
interest in Jungian psychology and was apparently analyzed by Jung (I cannot
be
sure about the analysis)
although he was not actually a Jungian.

You may want to check some of the information available on the influence of
the
Emmanual movement on the steps, if you are researching the connection
between
psychological theory and AA. The archives of this list have some good
information.

Cora

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++++Message 2634. . . . . . . . . . . . Thanks from a Hurricane survivor
From: bbthumper61901 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2005 3:24:00 PM

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Thanks to all who helped us survivors of Hurricane Katrina; from those
who donated literature to shelters and evacuation centers to those of
you who had a kind word to help cheer up a struggling survivor. You
will never know how much just a few words of kindness could mean. And,
as the Third-Step prayer says, "Take away my difficulties, that
victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power,
Thy Love and Thy Way of life." Your help in this tough time has given
me plenty to witness.

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++++Message 2635. . . . . . . . . . . . History of the Multilith
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2005 11:38:00 PM

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In the neverending qwest of AA minutia and the recent issues regarding
just what a "multilith" is or was it was suprising to find that there
is an organisation that is commmited to 'the history of printing'.
Apparently around 100 years ago the Addressograph Company of Clevland
created the Graphotype and an addressing machine which used metal plates.

Due to its success but desiring a document that appeared typed the
company developed the Multigraph which had varying fonts and
typewriter ribbons to create a document that appeared hand typed. When
offset machines replaced the multigraphs it appears that the either
the older or the new offset machines were renamed the multilith. (the
source is unclear on the last point - following the link below will
take you to a short history used herein).

http://www.museumofprinting.org/Exhibit.html

The multilith is still around. See www.swiftoffsets.com .

If you are reading this and are wondering why in the world historic
printing technolgy is being discussed here its because the early
drafts of the Big Book were supposedly refered to as 'multiliths'.
Theres been some wonderful discussion as to just how that relates to
some originals which trace their lineage through the very earliest
members. It appears that the font could be easily changed on these
machines which accounts for the two fonts I've seen. Perhaps the
hyphen issue was also possible. The question that arises is how Bill,
Hank, Fitz and Jim could afford this costly method. They were moved
from the large 601 0ffice to the shoebox office 604 in the same
building at 17-19 William Street around this time because of lack of
funds. Ruth was being paid in stock in a company that didn't legally
exist yet and Bill was shortly to have to leave his Brooklyn Heights
home. Its possible that the printing may have caused the lack of funds
for rent. It may also be possible that the Rockerfeller Foundation
offered its press. It seems that Mr. Richardson would have known this
contradicting the Frank Amos letter I posted here to some degree. The
above paragraph is speculation on my part. If anyone knows where the
Multilith machine was located that would help. I didn't see reference
to it at GSO or SS Archives.

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++++Message 2636. . . . . . . . . . . . How the first copies of Bill''s
writing was duplicated
From: morefromles2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2005 10:39:00 PM

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I cannot recall right now where I read the story of getting the copies
ready for ititial distribution for comment...but, the word
was "mimeograh", not "mulilith". I was living in that period and for
small organizations the only method was "mimeograph" which used a
typewritten master which was placed on a drum containing ink which came
through the letters partially cut by the typewriter. It was often
rather messy on your hands and cleanup of the machine after each job
was laborious. However.. it was cheap and effective. Considering the
pacity of finances, it makes good sense that the copies were done right
in AA headquarters and not sent to any "printing cmpany"
where "multilith" could be used.

Can anyone clarify, perhaps from archives about billing for the work
done FOLLOWING the office effort?

Les C.

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++++Message 2637. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Instinct based Psychology
From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2005 4:49:00 AM

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Dr. Earle Marsh, "Physician Heal Thyself" studied under Harry Stack Sullivan
and Earle told me that Bill was familiar with Sullivan's work.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2638. . . . . . . . . . . . Ambrose M
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/15/2005 9:25:00 AM

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Bill W. said somewhere that our archives are in the stories of our
members -- Ambrose M. (b Ireland Oct 4 1931 DLD Mar 17 1961), Delegate from
Eastern PA 1979-80, died Sep 13 2005. He will be missed not only because he
was
a personal archive of AA History in Eastern PA, but because he was a friend
and
a great servant of AA.

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++++Message 2639. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How the first copies of Bill''s
writing was duplicated
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2005 1:42:00 AM

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There was a list of all assets in office 604 at 17 William Street
prepared before the 1940 move to Vesey Street. At no time before the
first printing did AA own any copying device. The referals to
"Multilith" were made by Bill W. and Ruth Hock. Frank Amos refered to
it as a "photolith". See the letter I posted a short time ago. I've
never seen any referent to the copies originating from a "mimeograph"
until a few days ago on this site. I don't know if the term
"mimeograph" was a brand name but I do know I used it as a generic
term when I was in grade school. I posted reference to the multilith's
existence and have witnessed Ruth's concurrent reference using the
term multilith.

There also was no AA office in early 1939. It was the office of Henry
G. Parkhurst, Inc. which legally didn't exist for want of
registration. I located both office 601 and 604 in the building in
Newark. If there were a desk, a chair and a lamp in that office it
would be difficult to squeeze more than 2 people in there. I made
measurements of this office and placed it in NJ Archives along with
the glass pane with the 604 painted on it. (As a side note the desk in
Bill's study which is a seperate building behind the main house at
Stepping Stones was represented as the original desk at William
Street. While this huge desk would have fit in 601 it would not have
fit in 604. There is a couch at the GSO Archives that the same is said
about. Unless they stood on it it was probably was also not in 604.
All of the inventorized items in the office were not moved to Vesey
Street. Some were stored in the Montclair house of a friend of
Kathleen P. Specific reference along with the exact address is on a
simultaneosly executed document in GSO Archives. That's one stone I
have not yet looked under. These few items could still be in that
house. There is the practical matter of repecting the privacy of the
present owner. When our State Archives Committee swooped down on
Hank's North Fullerton, Montclair NJ home for recon photographing the
terrified occupants were peering out at all the cameras and were quite
concerned as to what was happening. As a committee we learned from
that experience.

It would be very important to identify exactly where you saw the word
mimeograph. Was it a document written in 1939 or in a book written
years later? There are an almost infinite number of misrepresentations
in later history's. Some are minor and some are major. Such a
reference would most likely be accidental but nontheless these things
are recited as fact when they are not. This is why stating one's
source is so critical to prevent further alteration and distortion.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "morefromles2"
<morefromles2@y...> wrote:
> I cannot recall right now where I read the story of getting the copies
> ready for ititial distribution for comment...but, the word
> was "mimeograh", not "mulilith". I was living in that period and for
> small organizations the only method was "mimeograph" which used a
> typewritten master which was placed on a drum containing ink which came
> through the letters partially cut by the typewriter. It was often
> rather messy on your hands and cleanup of the machine after each job
> was laborious. However.. it was cheap and effective. Considering the
> pacity of finances, it makes good sense that the copies were done right
> in AA headquarters and not sent to any "printing cmpany"
> where "multilith" could be used.
>
> Can anyone clarify, perhaps from archives about billing for the work
> done FOLLOWING the office effort?
>
> Les C.

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++++Message 2640. . . . . . . . . . . . question about 6 steps
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/16/2005 9:50:00 AM

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I am asking the experts about the so-called six step program of the
Oxford Group. Bill wrote about the six-step program and I've seen these
steps written in 1953 in Bill's handwriting. Fr. Dowling also wrote
about the same thing as well as how AA's program grew out of the
Spiritual Exercizes of St. Ignatius (also in 1953).

Earl T.'s story in the 2nd & 3rd editions mentions being taken through
the six steps by Dr. Bob. Clarence never mentioned anything about 6
steps nor have any of the other long-term members I've spoken with.

In all my research of original documents and Oxford Group literature I
have yet to find an original reference other than those mentioned above
to these six steps of the OG. Was there something I missed????

Thanks

----------------------

A NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR:

There is a list of all the AA six step versions at
<http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html> but this reference does not refer to
Oxford
Group practices.

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++++Message 2641. . . . . . . . . . . . Yes, it was "mimeographed"
From: morefromles2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2005 3:08:00 PM

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Just today, Sep 18, I found a factual reference to how the original
copies of Bill's manuscript was prepared. On this web site.
www.ArchivesInternational.org there is a pdf copy of a letter which
Ruth Hock wrote to Bill dated November 10, 1955.. which starts: "Dear
Bill: As I wrote to you last week it is difficult for me to get a long
period of uninterupted time together to put down my recollections of
those old A.A. days - but I have about two hours - so here goes"

On page 6, she states: "By the time the book was mimeographed mostly
for distribution in an effort to raise money to carry on and get the
book published."

The letter is 11 pages long and it gives insight as to many emotions
connected with the original trials and tribulations.

Les C.

P.S. If there are questions, I can be reached at elsietwo@msn.com

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++++Message 2642. . . . . . . . . . . . Were any early women AA''s involved
in writing the Big Book?
From: t_brown71 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2005 10:35:00 PM

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Hi everyone. My name is Tina and I live in Maine. I have been sober
since Dec. 26, 1992. I am a college student and I'm enrolled in a
Intro to Women's Studies course this semester and I got the ok to
write a paper on a woman who participated in writing the Alcoholics
Anonymous "Big Book"! Does anyone know the name of a woman who
participated in writing the book? Actually, did a woman or women
help write the book? If someone could get back to me in regards to this
question I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance to anyone who can
help me.

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++++Message 2643. . . . . . . . . . . . Source of four phrases
From: al030188 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/13/2005 12:51:00 PM

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Where do these phrases come from: (1) "bridge back to life," (2) "strange
camels," (3) "King Baby," and (4) "boiled as an owl"?

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(1) From: "al030188" <alev101@aol.com> Subject: A bridge back to life
Hello all
Does anyone know the origin of the expression "a bridge back to life"? Is it
in
any of our literature?
AVA. NYC

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(2) From: giftdlr@aol.com Subject: Strange Camels
There is an AA Group in Slidell, Louisiana called the Strange Camels Group.
I
understand that this term, Strange Camels, comes from one of Bill's
writings. I
have heard the part of the quote is as follows: "Many strange camels come
into
our tent." Does anyone in the group know what the whole quote is and where
it
actually comes from?
Denny

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(3) From: "jwm_az" <jwm_az@yahoo.com> Subject: King Baby
Does anyone know where I can find an explicit reference to the phrase "King
Baby" in AA Conference Approved Literature? Thanks!

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(4) From: "jmolloy8352003" <jmolloy835@aol.com> Subject: Boiled as an owl
I know it means drunk, but where did this come from?

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FROM THE MODERATOR:

(1) BRIDGE BACK TO LIFE
One AA reference to a bridge leading from death to life occurs on p. 53 of
the
Big Book, where Bill W. talked about how alcoholics had so frequently tried
to
walk across "the Bridge of Reason" in their attempt to arrive in the Land of
Faith. But that bridge never went all the way across, and stopped short in
the
middle of the water. On p. 56, it then tells about the alcoholic who was
totally hostile to all spiritual concepts, who was suddenly hit with a
thought,
"Who are you to say there is no God?" With that there came to him "a
conviction
of the Presence of God" which was an immediate and direct intuitive
awareness of
the sacred realm, which was similar to Bill W.'s experience in Winchester
Cathedral (described on p. 1 of the Big Book). On p. 56, it says that the
man,
using that human ability to sense the presence of the sacred and the holy,
finally "stepped from bridge to shore."
In this reference however (i.e. pp. 53 and 56 of the Big Book), the main
point
being made is that the Bridge of Reason (the ability to think logically and
scientifically) does not reach all the way to the shores of Life. The Bridge
in
and of itself will not bring us new life. We need a kind of spiritual
experience that goes beyond reason in order to jump off the bridge at the
far
end and land safely on the soil of the Land of Faith and Life.

Sgt. Bill S., the best spokesman for those within early AA who used a
primarily
psychological interpretation of the steps (see
<http://hindsfoot.org/bsv01thr.html>) used the metaphor of a bridge to
describe
the twelve steps, and had a pamphlet which he handed out to alcoholics with
a
picture on the cover showing what he called "the Bridge Over Troubled
Waters."
It was a sturdy bridge held up by twelve pillars, each one representing one
of
the twelve steps, while the waters down below swirled with all sorts of
alcoholic problems and troubles.

(3) KING BABY
Sgt. Bill S., the best spokesman for those within early AA who used a
primarily
psychological interpretation of the steps (see
<http://hindsfoot.org/bsv02psy.html>) also used the phrase, and told me that
it
came from the psychiatrist Sigmund Freud.
The basic idea goes back many centuries before that, to Augustine, the great
African saint whose ideas underlie so much of Bill W.'s thought in the Big
Book
and the 12 & 12. At the beginning of St. Augustine's Confessions, he
describes
the way small babies cry and scream and hit out, and demand instant
satisfaction
of their every demand. When adults continue to act in that babyish kind of
way,
Augustine refers to it as the deadly vice of Pride (superbia in Latin, i.e.
the
desire to be "superior" to everyone else), and more specifically, as the
form of
Pride which he called the libido dominandi, the lust to dominate and control
everyone around us.

(4) BOILED AS AN OWL
See p. 158 in the Big Book for the phrase "boiled as an owl," which is used
in
the story of Bill D., AA Number Three.
See <http://freaky_freya.tripod.com/Drunktionary/A-B.html> -- Boiled as an
owl
-- compare "Drunk as a boiled owl." British & US, since the late 1800s. A
"boiled owl" is a drunkard, possibly from "Tough as a boiled owl."
See also <http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/Predators/MystiqueHootOwl.htm>
-- In
English folklore, the owl egg was believed to cure alcoholism. A child given
raw
owl eggs was then protected from drunkenness throughout his life.
Not recommended by the moderator, but as a side note, see also The Eskimo
Cookbook (1952): Recipe (in its entirety) for boiled owl: Take feathers off.
Clean owl and put in cooking pot with lots of water. Add salt to taste.

CAN THE MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP come up with additional information on these
four
phrases?

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2644. . . . . . . . . . . . Original printing device
From: morefromles2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2005 12:59:00 PM

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It seems that the question of what device printed those original
copies of Bill's manuscript (those reviewed by the "100") is best
answered by looking at a copy. It is not a question of whether the
machine existed in the actual GSO office. They were of simple design
and cheap (even considering it was during the depression) and would
not have been worth keeping considering the availability of better
systems as soon as money was available (or servies donated) to pay
for eventual proper printing. The copies could have been made in one
or several places, and on more than one machine. I have no knowledge
of that history, but others might. Has anyone actually seen one or
more of those copies? This subject is really not significant, but as
we explore history and attempt, today, to understand those very
important early days of AA, each bit of information helps. I have
some personal knowledge of Bill and Lois (in early 1930's, prior to
founding of AA) but I do not have the competence of you researchers
out there,... so I'm looking for more information as I read your
input.

For me, one of the most interesting contrasts is in the area of
finance and how Lois and Bill lived. Lois was raised in an
atmosphere of considerable wealth (at the time)and there were
servants, both in New york and Vermont... Bill came from the
opposite background. Although Lois often worked at meanial jobs and
was the breadwinner throughout their early marriage, both were
content to live meagerly (and with friends) during their "hobo"
years. The houses in Vermont (Manchester and the Camp on Lake
Emerald) were very nice places. Although Bill acquired wealth,
during his WAll Street period, the 1929 Crash reversed that... but
not to an actual state of poverty which was common throughout the
country in the 30's. There are many examples of opposite life styles.
Les C.

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++++Message 2645. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s Stay in Montreal with a
Friend
From: John . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2005 9:30:00 AM

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After the stock market crash Bill and Lois went to Montreal to stay
with a friend. After a period of time, Bill's drinking had worn out
his welcome there and they were forced to leave the comforts of their
friend in Montreal. (They were kicked out because of Bill's drinking)

I was just curious if anyone knows who he stayed with, where it was
and possibly how long he stayed there.

Thanks !

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++++Message 2646. . . . . . . . . . . . "Multilith" or ??
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2005 4:17:00 PM

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Thanks, mertonmm3: you are a great digger! Your message reawakens my
memories of your taking me on that tour of 17 William now so long ago.

I am not sure if this will help or even whether *Not-God* had any
influence on the vocabulary for that "pre-publication" draft, about
which few seemed to know in the mid-1970s when I was doing my research.
(Actually, the distribution of that "draft" to some 400 individuals
itself constituted "publication," according to the copyright law of the
time, in so far as I know of such matters.) I know nothing of printing
details, except for my own experience with the messiness of
mimeographing (so called in the early 1960s).

I used the term "multilith" in *Not-God* because I am certain that is
the word used by the early member in Cleveland who lent me his copy so I
could photocopy it. Also, to the best of my recollection, that is the
word used by Nell Wing who, though not around at this time, was AA's
first archivist and Bill W's faithful secretary for several decades.

Actually, in hindsight and perusing the history of copying machines (I
come from the home of Xerox -- Rochester, NY). I suspect the more
accurate term, at least for the copy made available to me, would be
"hectograph," though the information to be found at
http://www.deadmedia.org/notes/2/025.html seems to contradict me.

Perhaps someone who knows more about the history of office machines and
printing/duplicating can add more details?

ernie kurtz

mertonmm3 wrote:

> There was a list of all assets in office 604 at 17 William Street
> prepared before the 1940 move to Vesey Street. At no time before the
> first printing did AA own any copying device. The referals to
> "Multilith" were made by Bill W. and Ruth Hock. Frank Amos refered to
> it as a "photolith". See the letter I posted a short time ago. I've
> never seen any referent to the copies originating from a "mimeograph"
> until a few days ago on this site. I don't know if the term
> "mimeograph" was a brand name but I do know I used it as a generic
> term when I was in grade school. I posted reference to the multilith's
> existence and have witnessed Ruth's concurrent reference using the
> term multilith.
>
> There also was no AA office in early 1939. It was the office of Henry
> G. Parkhurst, Inc. which legally didn't exist for want of
> registration. I located both office 601 and 604 in the building in
> Newark. If there were a desk, a chair and a lamp in that office it
> would be difficult to squeeze more than 2 people in there. I made
> measurements of this office and placed it in NJ Archives along with
> the glass pane with the 604 painted on it. (As a side note the desk in
> Bill's study which is a seperate building behind the main house at
> Stepping Stones was represented as the original desk at William
> Street. While this huge desk would have fit in 601 it would not have
> fit in 604. There is a couch at the GSO Archives that the same is said
> about. Unless they stood on it it was probably was also not in 604.
> All of the inventorized items in the office were not moved to Vesey
> Street. Some were stored in the Montclair house of a friend of
> Kathleen P. Specific reference along with the exact address is on a
> simultaneosly executed document in GSO Archives. That's one stone I
> have not yet looked under. These few items could still be in that
> house. There is the practical matter of repecting the privacy of the
> present owner. When our State Archives Committee swooped down on
> Hank's North Fullerton, Montclair NJ home for recon photographing the
> terrified occupants were peering out at all the cameras and were quite
> concerned as to what was happening. As a committee we learned from
> that experience.
>
> It would be very important to identify exactly where you saw the word
> mimeograph. Was it a document written in 1939 or in a book written
> years later? There are an almost infinite number of misrepresentations
> in later history's. Some are minor and some are major. Such a
> reference would most likely be accidental but nontheless these things
> are recited as fact when they are not. This is why stating one's
> source is so critical to prevent further alteration and distortion.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "morefromles2"
> <morefromles2@y...> wrote:
> > I cannot recall right now where I read the story of getting the copies
> > ready for ititial distribution for comment...but, the word
> > was "mimeograh", not "mulilith". I was living in that period and for
> > small organizations the only method was "mimeograph" which used a
> > typewritten master which was placed on a drum containing ink which came
> > through the letters partially cut by the typewriter. It was often
> > rather messy on your hands and cleanup of the machine after each job
> > was laborious. However.. it was cheap and effective. Considering the
> > pacity of finances, it makes good sense that the copies were done right
> > in AA headquarters and not sent to any "printing cmpany"
> > where "multilith" could be used.
> >
> > Can anyone clarify, perhaps from archives about billing for the work
> > done FOLLOWING the office effort?
> >
> > Les C.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Addiction recovery program
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Addiction+recovery+program&w1=Addiction
+rec\

overy+program&w2=Recovery+from+addiction&w3=Addiction+recovery+center&w4=Chr
isti\

an+addiction+recovery&w5=Alcoholics+anonymous&c=5&s=152&.sig=7nIehTXyBhra_Nv
wptN\

X5Q [17]>
> Recovery from addiction
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Recovery+from+addiction&w1=Addiction+re
cove\

ry+program&w2=Recovery+from+addiction&w3=Addiction+recovery+center&w4=Christ
ian+\

addiction+recovery&w5=Alcoholics+anonymous&c=5&s=152&.sig=R-wLjqz2Eb4Py9_USL
z1gg\

[18]>
> Addiction recovery center
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Addiction+recovery+center&w1=Addiction+
reco\

very+program&w2=Recovery+from+addiction&w3=Addiction+recovery+center&w4=Chri
stia\

n+addiction+recovery&w5=Alcoholics+anonymous&c=5&s=152&.sig=hH1Nh9pIuuLs54g0
Rwsk\

gA [19]>
>
> Christian addiction recovery
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Christian+addiction+recovery&w1=Addicti
on+r\

ecovery+program&w2=Recovery+from+addiction&w3=Addiction+recovery+center&w4=C
hris\

tian+addiction+recovery&w5=Alcoholics+anonymous&c=5&s=152&.sig=T1CkunD5Z44PS
neqN\

OhpCw [20]>
> Alcoholics anonymous
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Alcoholics+anonymous&w1=Addiction+recov
ery+\

program&w2=Recovery+from+addiction&w3=Addiction+recovery+center&w4=Christian
+add\

iction+recovery&w5=Alcoholics+anonymous&c=5&s=152&.sig=2IodOMbHZYYgRD_6mW5DY
Q [21]>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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++++Message 2647. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: question about 6 steps
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2005 4:24:00 PM

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Hi Mitch,

I'm with you: I have never seen anything referring to "six steps" that
predates
the early 1950s. Memory and interpretation are both tricky, but until
someone
can show me earlier evidence about the OG's "six steps" (so numbered), I
choose
to remain skeptical on the topic. Perhaps your query will shake out some
real
_evidence_.

ernie kurtz
_______________________

Mitchell K. wrote:

I am asking the experts about the so-called six step program of the Oxford
Group. Bill wrote about the six-step program and I've seen these steps
written
in 1953 in Bill's handwriting. Fr. Dowling also wrote about the same thing
as
well as how AA's program grew out of the Spiritual Exercizes of St. Ignatius
(also in 1953).
Earl T.'s story in the 2nd & 3rd editions mentions being taken through the
six
steps by Dr. Bob. Clarence never mentioned anything about 6 steps nor have
any
of the other long-term members I've spoken with.
In all my research of original documents and Oxford Group literature I have
yet
to find an original reference other than those mentioned above to these six
steps of the OG. Was there something I missed????
Thanks
----------------------
A NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR:
There is a list of all the AA six step versions at
<http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html> but this reference does not refer to
Oxford
Group practices.
----------------------
FURTHER NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR:
And Ernie is certainly right, that none of the above lists of "six steps" go
back before the early 1950's. I think these lists are saying at most that we
"in effect" had what were "sort of" six steps, more or less, back twenty
years
ago, although we weren't really counting them back then. But like Ernie, I
do
not see any evidence that there was a list of six steps written down
anywhere
during the latter 1930's, even in AA circles.
Glenn Chesnut

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++++Message 2648. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: question about 6 steps
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2005 7:40:00 PM

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No Mitch,

You missed nothing. I've read the same books as you and came to the
same conclusion. The best source I have found as to what the unwritten
Oxford Group program might have been pre-1938 was the 7-Step Survey of
the Akron Group by Frank Amos that I posted a short time ago. As you
know the Akron alcoholics were meeting as the Oxford Group until
November of 1939 and there was no AA at the time of this Amos letter.

As you are considerably more of an expert on Akron branch history
than I it is helpful that we both arrived at the same conclusion
independently.

Of course proving the nonexistence of something is quite difficult.
Abscense of proof is not proof of abscense so one day someone may find
more contemporaneous written evidence that contradicts this conclusion.

I've always suspected that the three early books written by Jerry
McAuley and S.H. Hadley may have been read and utilized by Bill as
both the form of the books (text and recovered drunk's stories) and
examples of many of the steps appear therein. The fact that both
McAuley and Hadley appear in Varieties of Religious experience as the
only examples of recovery from alcohol in that book adds even more to
this suspition. What is strange is that Bill makes no reference to it
that I am aware of. It seems it would be difficult to miss. Of course
this last paragraph is speculation on my part. Please let me know your
thoughts.

-merton

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++++Message 2649. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: question about 6 steps
From: TH . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2005 9:28:00 PM

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At 09:50 9/16/2005 , Mitchell K. wrote:

"I am asking the experts about the so-called six step program of the
Oxford Group .... In all my research of original documents and Oxford Group
literature I have yet to find an original reference ... to these six steps
of
the OG. Was there something I missed????"

This comes from Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" pp. 160-161. It is not
"the
so-called six step program of the Oxford Group," which as far as I know
never
existed.

Quote follows:

I was in this anything-but-spiritual mood on the night when the Twelve Steps
of
Alcoholics Anonymous were written. I was sore and tired clear through. I lay
in
bed at 182 Clinton Street with pencil in hand and with a tablet of scratch
paper
on my knee. I could not get my mind on the job, much less put my heart in
it.
But here was one of those things that had to be done. Slowly my mind came
into
some kind of focus.
Since Ebby's visit to me in the fall of 1934 we had gradually evolved what
we
called "the word-of-mouth program." Most of the basic ideas had come from
the
Oxford Groups, William James, and Dr. Silkworth. Though subject to
considerable
variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent procedure which
comprised
six steps. These were approximately as follows:

1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over alcohol.

2. We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins.

3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in
confidence.

4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our drinking.

5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward in money or
prestige.

6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to practice
these
precepts.

This was the substance of what, by the fall of 1938, we were telling
newcomers. Several of the Oxford Groups' other ideas and attitudes had been
definitely rejected, including any which could involve us in theological
controversy. In important matters there was still considerable disagreement
between the Eastern and the Midwestern viewpoints. Our people out there were
still active Oxford Group members, while we in New York had withdrawn a year
before. In Akron and vicinity they still talked about the Oxford Groups'
absolutes: absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and
absolute love. This dose was found to be too rich for New Yorkers, and we
had
abandoned the expressions."

End of quoted material.

The source as Wilson declares was the Oxford Groups, William James, and Dr.
Silkworth. It think the discussion we had a while back on Oxford Group
tenets
applies here

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

NOTE TO MODERATORS: The last two emails posted were not signed and it is
difficult to see who they are from. Could we perhaps enforce the requirement
that posts be signed?

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++++Message 2650. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: question about 6 steps
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2005 10:45:00 PM

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Here is evidence of the opposite. It says that the six step
program was not taken in that form from the Oxford Ggroups.
Bill fused some OG practices with ideas from other sources.

"Pass It On"
Footnote 2 on page 206
is in reference to page 197

In later years, some A.A. members referred to this procedure
as the six steps of the Oxford Group. Reverend T. Willard Hunter,
who spent 18 years in full-time staff positions for the Oxford
Group and M.R.A., said, "I never once saw or heard anything like
the Six Tenets. It would be impossible to find them in any Oxford
Group-M.R.A. literature. I think they must have been written by
someone else under some sort of misapprehension"

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++++Message 2651. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: question about 6 steps
From: jocisoo7@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2005 9:54:00 PM

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There were no formal 6 steps in the Oxford Group. The Oxford Group had four
absolutes and other lists like that instead.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2652. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Were any early women AA''s
involved in writing the Big Book?
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2005 11:14:00 PM

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Hi Tina,

Thanks for writing to the History Lovers for information about the women
involved in writing the Big Book. It appears that the first edition (in
1939) was almost entirely written by men, although one woman's personal
story was included. She had trouble, however, and died soon after the book
was published.

But one woman who did play a major role in writing the book was Ruth Hock,
a nonalcoholic who had come to work for Bill Wilson and Hank Parkhurst when
they were trying to operate a little company called Honor Dealers. She did
all the typing and retyping and became AA's first secretary when Bill opened
the first general service office. She was an extremely capable woman and
carried on most of the correspondence with early members between 1939 and
1942 (when she married and moved to Ohio).

When the second edition of the Big Book was published in 1955, Marty
Mann's story was included in the personal stories under the title, "Women
Suffer Too." There were also ten other stories by women in that edition.
If you're interested in more information about Marty, who founded what is
now the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependency, her biography is
available from Hazelden: *Sally Brown and David R. Brown, A biography of
Mrs.
Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous*, 2001.

Good luck to you in your project, Tina.

Mel Barger

----- Original Message -----
From: "t_brown71" <grace1103@aol.com>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Were any
early
women AA's involved in writing the Big Book?

Hi everyone. My name is Tina and I live in Maine. I have been sober
since Dec. 26, 1992. I am a college student and I'm enrolled in a
Intro to Women's Studies course this semester and I got the ok to
write a paper on a woman who participated in writing the Alcoholics
Anonymous "Big Book"! Does anyone know the name of a woman who
participated in writing the book? Actually, did a woman or women
help write the book? If someone could get back to me in regards to this
question I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance to anyone who can
help me.

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++++Message 2653. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Were any early women AA''s
involved in writing the Big Book?
From: george brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2005 7:46:00 AM

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Tina <grace1103@aol.com> wrote: "I am a college student and I'm enrolled in
a
Intro to Women's Studies course this semester and I got the ok to write a
paper
on a woman who participated in writing the Alcoholics Anonymous "Big Book"!
Does
anyone know the name of a woman who participated in writing the book?
Actually,
did a woman or women help write the book?"
___________________________

Hi!

I am a novice in AA history and I am sure you are going to get a lot of good
info from this site.

This is some info I recently came across:

The Big Book originally was going to be called "one hundred men" until
Florence
R., the only female member at the time, objected. her story, "A Feminine
Victory," is in the first edition of the Big Book. Unfortunately she
returned to
drinking and died an apparent suicide in Washington, D.C.

Ruth Hock, while not a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, was instrumental in
writing the Big Book. Yhere is a letter she wrote to Bill W. that details
her
experience in early AA. It can be found at
http://www.archivesinternational.org/AI/Documents/pdf/ruthhock.pdf

Good luck on your project. I think it's a great idea.

george b.

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++++Message 2654. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Were any early women AA''s
involved in writing the Big Book?
From: TH . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2005 4:28:00 PM

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The quick and easy method of finding out more about the authors of the
stories
in the Big Book would be to go to

<http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm>

which lists the authors of the stories in the first three editions of
"Alcoholics Anonymous." Look for female names associated with stories in the
Original Manuscript and first edition, and read the biographies, which I
have
found to be informative. Once this is done, other avenues may be open for
exploration.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

__________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

Marie Bray, according to the Akron archives, wrote the first draft of "To
Wives"
in the AA Big Book, although her name is not mentioned in some of the other
accounts (for example Lois Wilson's account).

This information is from the AA history page which Tommy H. refers to. It is
sponsored by the West Baltimore Group (Al W. is the one who takes care of it
and
has turned it into such a good historical resource):

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm

Marie's story is in the third column on that page, up towards the top.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

__________________________________

An Alcoholic's Wife
Marie Bray (Cleveland, Ohio)
p. 378 in 1st edition

Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
Walter
first joined A.A. in September 1935.
There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written the
first
draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob and the Good
Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill wrote it.

She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I should
say
the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say misfortune because of
the
worry and grief that goes with drinking, and good fortune because we found a
new
way of living."
Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work to pay
the
bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home and their son.

When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but soon
found
she had to work on her own defects and that they both had to give their
problems
to God.

She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our problems
and
trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live. When we live with God
we
want for nothing."

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++++Message 2655. . . . . . . . . . . . Women in Early AA
From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2005 2:20:00 PM

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You might look into this book for your class: William L. White, *Slaying the
Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America* ... it
would
be my suggestion... it gives accounts what it was like for women in the
early
fellowship of AA.

http://www.unhooked.com/booktalk/slaying_the_dragon.htm

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++++Message 2656. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: question about 6 steps
From: Dave Stamp . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2005 1:33:00 PM

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They are not referred to as steps but they are listed as tenets. This is
taken
from Susan Cheever, My Name is Bill , page 111.

"A Christian group later became Moral Rearmament, The Oxford Group
recommended
meditation, adherence to Christian principles of behaviour, belief in a God
of
the believer's understanding and adherence to what they called the six
tenets:
1. Men are sinners.
2. Men can be changed.
3. Confession is a prerequisite to changed.
4. The changed soul has direct access to God.
5. The age of miracles has returned.
6. Those who have changed must change others."

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++++Message 2657. . . . . . . . . . . . 12 stepping women in the ''70s
From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2005 9:28:00 PM

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Fellow Historians: I'm hoping you can help me uncover a blurry chapter
in 12-Step history. I'm trying to find out the history of women
alcoholics (or al-anons) 12-stepping at battered women's shelters, rape
crisis centers, and women's health clinics during the 1970s. (I ask
about these institutions in particular because the strong correlaton
between drug and alcohol abuse and sexual violence against women means
that many women who sought out such institutions may have been addicts,
or been related to addicts. I ask about whether women alcoholics paid
12-step calls in these places because many of these institutions were
"women only" at the time; I would be interested in knowing about men's
efforts in this area as well.) There is not much in the literature--
either program literature or women's history-- about this phenomenon, so
I'm asking for people to draw on their personal recollections, and/or to
pass this inquiry on to other people who might have memories of this
time. I'm eager to hear any insights you might have; thanks in advance
for helping me out with this question.

Trysh Travis

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++++Message 2658. . . . . . . . . . . . First edition Symbol
From: aaiou_1995 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2005 7:51:00 PM

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I am new to the group and appreciate all of the information that was
compiled here. I was curious about the symbol used in the First
Edition of the big book. The symbol used where the Circle and Triangle
is in the later printings. Is there any information concerning its
meaning?

Thanks,

George b.

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++++Message 2659. . . . . . . . . . . . Earliest 4th Step format
From: george brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2005 3:28:00 PM

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Hey folks,

I was at a "Back to Basics" workshop this weekend in Rahway, N.J. Wally P.,
the
author of the book by the same name, led the workshop and it was very
helpful
and informative.

He stated that initially no one used the 4th step format that Bill has in
the
Big Book. He said that the Oxford Group moral inventory was what beginners
were
given. Does anyone have any information about this??

george

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++++Message 2660. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: question about 6 steps
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2005 7:39:00 PM

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Mitchell asked where in Oxford Group documents you could find the
"so-called six step program of the Oxford Group." It is easier to
find evidence that the six step program was not taken in that form
from the Oxford Groups. Bill fused some OG practices with ideas
from other sources to get this precursor of the Twelve Steps.

"Pass It On"
Page 197

"According to Bill, their word-of-mouth program had thus
far been a pretty consistent procedure, containing six
steps to achieve and maintain their sobriety. There is no
evidence that the Oxford Group had such a specific program;
yet the Oxford Group ideas prevailed in these original
six steps, as listed by Bill:

"1) We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless
over alcohol
"2) We made a moral inventory of our defects and sins.
"3) We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another
person in confidence.
"4) We made restitution to all those we had harmed by
our drinking.
"5) We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of
reward in money or prestige.
"6) We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for
power to practice these precepts."

"Pass It On"
Footnote 2 on page 206
is in reference to page 197

"In later years, some A.A. members referred to this procedure
as the six steps of the Oxford Group. Reverend T. Willard Hunter,
who spent 18 years in full-time staff positions for the Oxford
Group and M.R.A., said, 'I never once saw or heard anything like
the Six Tenets. It would be impossible to find them in any Oxford
Group-M.R.A. literature. I think they must have been written by
someone else under some sort of misapprehension.'"

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++++Message 2661. . . . . . . . . . . . Can anyone tell me about this July
10th, 1941 date in A A history
From: jeffrey4200 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2005 1:16:00 AM

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July 10th, 1941

Texas newspaper publishes anonymous letter from founding member of
Texas Alcoholics Anonymous Group.

I was hoping to find out the name of the paper and I'm sure it's
Larry J from Houston, does any one have information on the letter that
was sent or more about Larry J.

Thank you,
Jeffrey Nilsen

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++++Message 2662. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of four phrases
From: wilfried antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2005 3:43:00 PM

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Oxford English Dictionary:

1922 Joyce Ulysses 300 He never cried crack till he brought him home as
drunk as
a boiled owl.

(This reference is actually in the dictionary under "crack," where to cry
crack
means to give up, to desist)

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++++Message 2663. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Were any early women AA''s
involved in writing the Big Book?
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2005 4:16:00 PM

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Hi Tina,

I had another thought about the participation of women in early AA. I
think you can make the case that Lois Wilson and Ann Smith were key allies
in their husbands' early work in the fellowship. I really think Lois pretty
much kept Bill going in those years and was certainly the main breadwinner.
Ann Smith persuaded Bill to stay in Akron after Dr. Bob got drunk on the
trip to Atlantic City, as Bill had packed his bags to return to New York
when he learned that Bob was drinking again. (I got this information from
Dr. Bob's son.)

I see that other History Lovers are writing to you. I hope you will keep
all of us in mind and will send us your paper when it is included. I'm sure
most of us would like to see it circulated.

Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com

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++++Message 2664. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: question about 6 steps
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2005 6:32:00 PM

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This posting repeats some previously posted info; however, repetition
might be useful to have a composite commentary on the subject of the
early 6 Steps of AA as they were influenced by the Oxford Groups (OG).

Core principles of the OG were: (a) the “4 Absolutes” of honesty,
unselfishness, purity and love, (b) the “5 C’s” of confidence,
confession, conviction, conversion and continuance, (c) the “5
Procedures” of (1) Give in to God (2) Listen to God’s direction (3)
Check guidance (4) Restitution and (5) Sharing for witness and
confession (re “Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers” pgs 53-55). The OG
gave AA the term “sharing” and were strong advocates of one member
working with another. Dr Bob wrote that this was a key part of the
“service” message carried to him by Bill W when they first met (re “Dr
Bob and the Good Old-timers” pg 70).

The 1955 foreword to the 2nd Ed Big Book (pg xvi, 4th Ed) states: “The
spark that was to flare in the first AA group was struck at Akron,
Ohio in June 1935, during a talk between a NY stockbroker and an Akron
physician. Six months earlier, the broker had been relieved of his
drink obsession by a sudden spiritual experience, following a meeting
with an alcoholic friend who had been in contact with the OG of that
day […] Though he could not accept all the tenets of the OG, he was
convinced of the need for moral inventory, confession of personality
defects, restitution to those harmed, helpfulness to others, and the
necessity of belief in and dependence upon God.”

In an April 1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society on Alcoholism (re
“Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W Co-founder of AA”) Bill W
described Ebby T’s visit to Towns Hospital in December 1934: “Next
Ebby enumerated the principles he had learned from the OG. In
substance here they are as my friend applied them to himself in 1934:
(1) Ebby admitted that he was powerless to manage his own life. (2) He
became honest with himself as never before; made an “examination of
conscience.” (3) He made a rigorous confession of his personal defects
and thus quit living alone with his problems. (4) He surveyed his
distorted relations with other people, visiting them to make what
amends he could. (5) He resolved to devote himself to helping others
in need, without the usual demands for personal prestige or material
gain. (6) By meditation, he sought God’s direction for his life and
the help to practice these principles of conduct at all times.”

Alcoholic members in Akron and NY (the “alcoholic squad”) developed
“word-of-mouth” variations of the 6 Steps based on principles
advocated by the OG. Sometimes reference is made to them as the “6
Steps of the OG”. This is not accurate. The OG did not have any Steps.
The book “Not God” (pg 331, end note 32) states “AA legend has it that
these 6 steps derived directly from the OG; this is simply wrong…”
However, the seminal influence of the OG on AA’s Steps (6 and 12) is
indisputable. “The Akron Genesis of AA” (pg 137) cites a letter Bill W
wrote to Sam Shoemaker in July 1949. It states “So far as I am
concerned, and Dr Smith too, the OG seeded AA. It was our spiritual
wellspring at the beginning. “A Comes of Age” (pg 39) states “early AA
got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character
defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others straight
from the OG and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in
America, and from nowhere else”

Four variations of the 6 Steps are recorded in AA Literature in:
“Language of the Heart” (pg 200), “AA Comes of Age” (pg 160),
“Pass It
On” (pg 197), the Big Book Pioneer story “He Sold Himself Short” (pg
292 - 3rd ed, pg 263 - 4th ed) and the pamphlet “Three Talks to
Medical Societies by Bill W, Co-Founder of Alcoholics Anonymous” (pg
8).

In April 1953, a member asked Bill W to write down his recollection of
the early 6 Steps. Bill’s note is a popular graphic circulating on the
web. It reads: (1) Admitted hopeless. (2) Got honest with self. (3)
Got honest with another. (4) Made amends. (5) Helped others without
demand. (6) Prayed to God as you understand Him.”

“Language of the Heart” contains a July 1953 Grapevine article by Bill
W titled “A Fragment of History: Origin of the Twelve Steps.” In it
Bill W wrote: “… the main channels of inspiration for our Steps were
three in number - the OG, Dr William D. Silkworth of Towns Hospital
and the famed psychologist, William James, called by some the father
of modern psychology…” “During the next three years after Dr Bob's
recovery our growing groups at Akron, NY and Cleveland evolved the
so-called word-of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we
commenced to form a society separate from the OG, we began to state
our principles something like this: (1) We admitted that we were
powerless over alcohol (2) We got honest with ourselves. (3) We got
honest with another person, in confidence. (4) We made amends for
harms done others. (5) We worked with other alcoholics without demand
for prestige or money. (6) We prayed to God to help us to do these
things as best we could.

Bill writes further: “Though these principles were advocated according
to the whim or liking of each of us, and though in Akron and Cleveland
they still stuck by the OG absolutes of honesty, purity, unselfishness
and love, this was the gist of our message to incoming alcoholics up
to 1939, when our present Twelve Steps were put to paper.”

In December 1938, the first version of the 12 Steps were written at
182 Clinton St (in about 30 minutes). Bill recalled, in "AA Comes of
Age” (pg 160): “I was anything but in a spiritual mood on the night
when the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous were written. […] Since
Ebby’s visit to me in the fall of 1934, we had gradually evolved what
we called “the word-of-mouth program”. Most of the basic ideas had
come from the OG, William James and Dr Silkworth. Though subject to
considerable variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent
procedure, which comprised six steps. These were approximately as
follows: (1) We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless
over alcohol. (2) We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins.
(3) We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in
confidence. (4) We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our
drinking. (5) We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of
reward in money or prestige. (6) We prayed to whatever God we thought
there was for power to practice these precepts.”

Bill continued: “[…] it seemed to me that the program was still not
definitive enough. It might be a long time before readers in distant
places and lands could be personally contacted. Therefore our
literature would have to be as clear and comprehensive as possible.
Our steps would have to be more explicit. There must not be a single
loophole through which the rationalizing alcoholic could wiggle out.
Maybe our six chunks of truth should be broken up into smaller pieces.
Thus we could better get the distant reader over the barrel, and at
the same time we might be able to broaden and deepen the spiritual
implications of our whole presentation. So far as I can remember this
was all I had in mind when the writing began.” The draft of the 12
Steps Bill wrote that night has been lost. An approximate
reconstruction is in “Pass It On” (pgs 198-199).

The 6 Steps were recorded in the 1st Ed Big Book “He Sold Himself
Short” by Earl T (pioneer AA in Chicago) and record the 6 Steps used
in Akron at the time (a more orthodox application of the OG’s
influence which remains to this day). Earl described the 6 Steps as:
(1) Complete deflation (2) Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power
(3) Moral inventory (4) Confession (5) Restitution and (6) Continued
work with other alcoholics.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2665. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Were any early women AA''s
involved in writing the Big Book?
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2005 6:37:00 PM

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Part of the info below is extracted from a series of biographies
written by Nancy O who started AAHistoryLovers.

29 stories were included in the 1st printing of the 1st Ed Big Book:
10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1 from the west coast
(the story “Lone Endeavor” about Pat C, which was ghost written by
Ruth Hock and later removed from the Big Book in the 2nd printing of
the 1st Ed).

The 1st Ed Big Book stories included the 1st woman in AA, Florence R
(“A Feminine Victory”) as well as separate stories by non-alcoholic,
Marie B (“An Alcoholic’s Wife”) and her alcoholic husband, Walter B
(“The Back-Slider”) and a composite story by an alcoholic husband, Tom
L (“My Wife and I”) and his non-alcoholic wife, Maybelle L.

“A Feminine Victory”

Florence R was the 1st woman to get sober in AA but her life ended in
tragedy. She was the ex-wife of a man Bill W had known on Wall St.
Her ex-husband took Lois W to visit Florence at Bellevue. Bill and
Lois W got her out of the hospital and she stayed in their home for a
time. In part, due to Florence having been sober a year in early 1939,
the title "One Hundred Men" was discarded as a possible name for the
Big Book. Florence later moved to Washington, DC and tried to help
Fitz M ("Our Southern Friend") start AA there. Eventually Florence
started drinking again and disappeared. In 1943, Fitz M was called to
identify her body in the morgue. She had committed suicide.

“An Alcoholic’s Wife”

Marie B, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Cleveland, OH member Walter
B. Reputedly, there is an indication in the Akron, OH archives that
Marie may possibly have written the first draft of the Big Book
chapter "To Wives," which Bill then edited. However, "Dr. Bob and the
Good Old-timers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill wrote the
chapter. Marie B’s story is extremely brief. Her husband Walter wrote
the story “The Back-Slider" in the 1st Ed. He was also the first
alcoholic patient Sister Ignatia admitted to St Thomas Hospital to
begin her partnership with Dr Bob.

“My Wife and I”

Tom L’s wife Maybelle L was referred to Dr Bob to get help for her
husband. Dr Bob visited them the following morning and hospitalized
Tom. Dr Bob often called Maybelle for help with the wives of other
alcoholics.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2666. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill''s Stay in Montreal with a
Friend
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2005 6:30:00 PM

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Source references:

BW-RT - “Bill W” by Robert Thompson (soft cover)
BW-FH - “Bill W” by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)
LOH - “The Language of the Heart” AA Grapevine Inc
LR - “Lois Remembers” by Lois Wilson
PIO - “Pass It On” AAWS
RAA - “The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous” by Bill Pittman

1929:

On October 29 (black Tuesday) the Stock Market collapsed. Bill W was
broke and $60,000 in debt ($645,000 in today’s dollars). He and his
benefactor, Frank Shaw, parted company. Later, Bill’s friend, Dick
Johnson, offered him a job in Montreal with Greenshields and Co. By
Christmas the Bill W and Lois were in Canada (BW-RT 152-154, LOH 367,
LR 81, PIO 85-86, RAA 148-149, BW-FH 44-46)

1930:

Bill W and Lois lived lavishly in Canada in a furnished Glen Eagles
apartment on Cotes des Neiges in Mount Royal overlooking Montreal.
They had a new Packard automobile and membership in the Lachute
Country Club. (BW-RT 154, BW-FH 45, LR 81). However, in less than 10
months after arriving in Montreal, Bill W was fired from Greenshields
and Co (due to his drinking and fighting in the country club). Lois
went back to Brooklyn because her mother had fallen ill. Bill stayed
behind in Montreal to clean up details. (RAA 149, PIO 86, BW-RT 155,
BW-FH 45). In December, after a binge that started in Montreal and
carried him into Vermont, Lois went to get Bill W. They finally
returned to Clinton St and moved into a room there. Lois’ mother was
dying from bone cancer. (PIO 86-87, BW-FH 46) On Christmas day, Lois’
mother passed away. Bill W, drunk for days beforehand, could not
attend the funeral and stayed drunk for many days after. (SW 30-31,
PIO 87, BW-RT 156, LR 82, BW-FH 46)

Cheers
Arthur

________________________________________

THE QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED:

After the stock market crash Bill and Lois went to Montreal to stay
with a friend. After a period of time, Bill's drinking had worn out
his welcome there and they were forced to leave the comforts of their
friend in Montreal. (They were kicked out because of Bill's drinking)

I was just curious if anyone knows who he stayed with, where it was
and possibly how long he stayed there.

Thanks !
________________________________________

OTHER PEOPLE WHO RESPONDED TO THIS QUESTION:

From: russell moore <oicuradry12@yahoo.com>
Bill's friend, in Montreal was a man named "Dick Johnson" you can read a
little
more about him on page 86, in the A.A. aproved book "PASS IT ON" . hope this
helped.
As always
Forever in service
Rockbottom-Russ, (a chicago drunk)

From: "Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net>
He worked for Dick Johnson.....

From: lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>
The only note that I have is the place that he worked while in Montreal. I'm
not
sure of the spelling but this is the name I have, Greenshields & Co.,
Montreal.

From: Tim Lokey <lokey1058@yahoo.com>
I don't know exactly who it was he stayed with, but it is my understanding
that
he went to work for Dick Johnson at Greenshields & Company, a brokerage firm
at
that time. Hope this is useful;
Tim

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++++Message 2667. . . . . . . . . . . . Suffolk County Long Island
Share-A-Thon History Project
From: rrecovery2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2005 11:30:00 AM

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Our annual Share-A-Thon is set for Octoober 29, 2005 at St. Joseph's
College from 9:30 to 4:30. In addition to AA workshops, there will be
Al-Anon and Alateen,too.Again this year, there will be an archives
display and we will collecting oral histories.If anyone can provide
background information on any Suffolk County AA groups. please stop by
or email me directly. We are looking for history on all meetings.

Thanks

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++++Message 2668. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Can anyone tell me about this
July 10th, 1941 date in A A history
From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2005 7:41:00 PM

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The Houston Intergroup office has a newsletter and they wrote about Larry J.
a
lot. See if they still have some copies.

Diz T.
Tallahassee

______________________________________

From: "Mike B." <mikeb384@verizon.net>
Date: Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:27am

Copies of correspondence between various early AA members in Houston
mention that Larry Jewel worked for the Houston Chronicle.

Mike Barns

______________________________________

ORIGINAL QUESTION:

From: "jeffrey4200" <jeffrey4@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005
Subject: Can anyone tell me about this July 10th, 1941 date in A A history

July 10th, 1941

Texas newspaper publishes anonymous letter from founding member of
Texas Alcoholics Anonymous Group.

I was hoping to find out the name of the paper and I'm sure it's
Larry J from Houston, does any one have information on the letter that
was sent or more about Larry J.

Thank you,
Jeffrey Nilsen

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++++Message 2669. . . . . . . . . . . . Detroit Opening AA Meeting Prayer
(1945)
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/25/2005 4:14:00 PM

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THE DETROIT PRAYER

Our Heavenly Father,
We ask Thy Blessings on this meeting.
Please Bless the Spirit and
purpose of this group.
Give us strength to follow this program
according to Thy will and in all humility.
Forgive us for yesterday and grant us
Courage for today and
Hope for tomorrow.
Amen

Opening AA Meeting Prayer, Detroit MI, 1945

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++++Message 2670. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gamblers Anonymous, who founded
it?
From: rrecovery2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2005 11:42:00 AM

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According to the book 10+ Women With Long Term Sobriety by Sylvia Cary
(Lowell House 1993) a lady named Annie "... the first woman west of the
Mississippi to get sober in AA.." was co-founder of Gamanon and was
married to a co-founder of GA. His name isn't mentioned but the book
says "her husband began to drink again"

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++++Message 2671. . . . . . . . . . . . Tradition six wording change.
From: Byron . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/25/2005 5:44:00 AM

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Hi group!
I have a question concerning the change in the wording of the sixth
Tradition.(SHORT FORM)

There are several posts on this site that refer to the revision in
the short form of tradition six that changed the wording
from "Primary Spiritual Aim" to "Primary Purpose". These are noted
in posts 1973, and 1736, under the 'time frame' of the date - 1949.

The question I have is this. In what printing of the second edition
did this change first appear?

I have a Tenth printing (1969) that has the wording "Primary
Purpose" but, I have an earlier printing of the second edition that
does not list what printing it is, but, the references to group
numbers, membership, etc, are listed as 1959. Therefore, I'm
assuming that this copy must be from the 1960 batch at the earliest,
because the previous printing was 1957 according to my records.
Perhaps, even later... 1962, or 1963? I only know that it can't be
prior to 1959.

I would appreciate any help from fellow historians about this matter.
I have been told that there was five, or six printings released
before the wording was changed, but that is of course, hearsay.

Thanks much,
Byron B.

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++++Message 2672. . . . . . . . . . . . Reliance On Various Sources In
Exploring AA History
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2005 7:05:00 AM

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The following is largely my opinion and should be interpreted as opinion.

Its interesting to note the various sources used to validate or
invalidate specific historical points here. In my experience there are
some additional factors that need to be taken into consideration. I'm
speaking of the eastern (non-Akron) experience as it is only that which I
know
about. Even within the eastern branch I'm only speaking
of the pre-Jack Alexander period before 1941-2. After that there was
an explosion in membership and data that changed the fellowship from a
fragile experiment to something more permenant.

There are several deposits of documents that were written at or very
close to the time in which the events occured. In legal evidentiary
terms it is assumed that "present sense impressions" have more
probative value than accounts written years later by the witnesses or
participants. In other words they are more likely to be true.

Although there are some other repositories most of the early documents
are located in two places. The first is the GSO Archives in NYC. Here
there are the early documents of a business nature dealing with what
would become AA after the book was published in April, 1939. There
were no documents there prior to 1937 that I saw and I believe I was
given full access. There are no personal documents there from this
period. There is the entire story of the Rockerfeller exchanges, the
Honor Dealers nonentity, individual accounts of roping what Ruth
refered to as "suspects" and the work that was carried out under the
unincorporated Henry G. Parkhurst, Inc. misnomer. The first office was
at 9-11 Hill Street in Newark N.J. and after July of 1938 at the 17-19
William Steet office several blocks away.

It should be pointed out that some of these documents show a side of
the story that has not yet been fully told. The reason for this is
first that the sheer volume of the material has precluded this. The
second reason is that much of this data is not published and access is
restricted for a variety of reasons some of which are protective and
some of which are largely bureaucratic. For the most part the
protectors have not read the material closely and thus are somewhat
unaware of what it is that's being protected. Like any successful
corporate entity AA has its enemies and the data has been used in the
past to attempt to demean both the organization and Bill personally.

Another reason the story is not complete is a result of the value and
use of the data by Bill himself. As Nell pointed out Bill viewed our
precious Archival material as trash, literally. She recounts that he
would deposit it in the trash and she would pull it out from the
receptacle and put it back in the filing cabinents. Thank God for Nell.

Secondly Bill saw the value of what happened as the vehicle for making
various points rather than the meticulous reconstruction of events
that people like myself seem to engage in. From everything I've read
Bill would probably view the microscopic examination of everything he
said as somewhat demented. So when Bill says things like 100 sober at
such and such a point we don't take him literally. This truism carries
forth into many contradictions that become readily apparent when one
reads secondary or even Bill's accounts at a later date. The most
glaring example of this, again in my opinion, is AA Comes of Age. This
book, penned by Bill, was written 15 years after the events took place
at a time when Bill had cycled into the depressive phase of that
illness. This was at a time predating even the earliest MAO
antidepressant medications. Although the book was embarked upon with
the grandiose vision of a 500 page historical masterpiece such would
not be the case. Its amazing that it was written at all. I must admit
that I do cringe when it is used to back up fact.

The second repository of very early AA present sense impession source
documents is of course the Stepping Stones archives. The flavor and
the feel of the documents here are of a decidedly different character.
This was Bill's home and it is here that decidedly more personal
(non-business) documents are housed. There are two broad categories
here. One is Bill's papers, and the other is what is really the most
critical of time line establishing documentation we have, Lois' diary.
Not only was this awesome accounting written by someone whose brain
was not in an early detoxifying state, but she is writing it almost as
it's happening. Of course Bill did not seem to have used it in
reconstructing his accounting. It's only by merging this enormously
detailed accounting with the business records at GSO and Bill's
personal correspondence that a more balanced accounting begans to
unfold. Obviously Lois wasn't present for what was happening with
Ruth, Bill, Hank and Fitz on the front lines in Newark, but she saw
and wrote about much of what Bill didn't see, or didn't feel was
important.

To date there are three published documents that attempt to assimilate
this particular material. The first is of course Ernie's "Not God."
This incredibly well researched and footnoted document is a very tough
act to follow by any historian looking for something new to report.
He makes the very important point that AA had a series of founding
moments thus guiding us away from seeking the pitfall of focusing on
who or what was "first." "Not God" includes both the Akron Branch and
Eastern Branch histories as well as addressing almost every
conceivable issue imaginable. The footnotes is where it's at. The
second exploration was of course, Pass It On, of which Mel was the 3rd
and primary author. I'm hoping, or I guess asking, that Mel will write
an accounting of what went on behind the scenes of this Conference
approved accounting that is focused on the eastern branch with Bill as
the focal point. I can't imagine how difficult it must have been to
get the final version approved for publication. I envision trying to
get something passed at an Intergroup meeting. This book does an
admirable first and perhaps only published to date integration of the
diary material with the GSO and other documentation. The integration
of the diary material over the course of the three authors and drafts
of this book kept me awake reading for many nights.

And finally there is Lois Remembers which is a distillation of the
diary itself. Various curveballs like an allusion to the possibility
of meetings of the drunks at Hank's house in Teaneck, NJ in 1936 seem
to jump out. This is startling for not only would that be an instance
of the drunks meeting apart from the OG but it throws the who-came-first
analyst
into a tailspin.

I hope this is useful to someone. It again is largely my opinion and
it could certainly be elaborated on ad infinitum.

-merton

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++++Message 2673. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Earliest 4th Step format
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2005 7:36:00 AM

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George wrote: "Does anyone have any information about this??"

It is in the book "For Sinners Only."

Jim

-----------------------------

From: "Kimball" <rowek@softcom.net> Date: Fri Sep 23, 2005Subject: Re:
[AAHistoryLovers] Earliest 4th Step format

I think it is a reach to say that "no one" used the 4th step in the Big
Book,
since Bill's drew on personnal experience. What they were doing in New York
may
have been slightly different than what they did in Akron, since they were
more
closely aligned with the Oxford Groups of the day. I could buy that "some"
did
not use the format, particularly if still attending the Oxford Groups.

-----------------------------

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++++Message 2674. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: question about 6 steps
From: Ron Sessions . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/25/2005 4:39:00 PM

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To my knowledge, no creditable Oxford Group literature or member has
surfaced claiming any such six steps, ideal, tenets, etc. There were
many principles that the Oxford Group promoted and its members tried
to live by. The steps are likely an amalgam of some of these.

I have read several times (in this thread and other places) that The
Oxford Group espoused the idea of a God of your own understanding.
This most certainly is not an Oxford Group ideal. They clearly
believed in only one God - the one they found in the Bible they
studied.

I just wanted to clear that point up since it has been mentioned more
than once in this thread…

Thanks,

Ron Sessions

-------------------------------------------------

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Stamp" <helen@b...>
wrote:

They are not referred to as steps but they are listed as tenets.
This is taken from Susan Cheever, My Name is Bill , page 111.

"A Christian group later became Moral Rearmament, The Oxford Group
recommended meditation, adherence to Christian principles of
behaviour, belief in a God of the believer's understanding and
adherence to what they called the six tenets:

> 1. Men are sinners.
> 2. Men can be changed.
> 3. Confession is a prerequisite to changed.
> 4. The changed soul has direct access to God.
> 5. The age of miracles has returned.
> 6. Those who have changed must change others."

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++++Message 2675. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: question about 6 steps
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/25/2005 6:29:00 PM

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In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@y...>
wrote:

"In all my research of original documents and Oxford Group literature I have
yet
to find an original reference other than those mentioned above to these six
steps of the OG. Was there something I missed????"

I'm sure there was nothing you missed! But yet. . . Is it possible there has
been some equivocation betwen the words "step," "tenet" and "principle"?

Consider what Henry Van Dusen wrote in a 1931 Atlantic Monthly article, "The
Oxford Group Movement":

"Thirty leaders of the Canadian Church who have followed closely the recent
campaigns there have summarized the central assumptions of the Group's work
in
these six points:
1. Men are sinners. [etc.-I won't rewrite the list]

Footnoted: "The Challenge of the Oxford Group Movement--An Attempt at
Appraisal"
by the Committee of Thirty. This is perhaps the most careful and accurate
account of the Movement in print. To be obtained from the Ryerson Press,
Toronto, at ten cents a copy."

There was no central authority in the sense of conference approval in the
OG,
and as the author says, "The Groups have no formal membership and no fixed
conditions for admission." Henry Van Dusen seems to have been well respected
as
an adherant and loyal commentator, however. Perhaps this list was in fact
the
origin of the magic number "six."

Cora

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++++Message 2676. . . . . . . . . . . . Bamford Family
From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2005 8:07:00 AM

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Can anyone tell me anything about Rev. Walter H. Bamford and his
family? I know that he and his wife Julia, along with Bertha, are
buried in Jeffersonville, IN. Did they remain in Manchester after
Bertha's death? Were there any other children?

John

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++++Message 2677. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Can anyone tell me about this
July 10th, 1941 date in A A history
From: Ken WENTZ . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2005 7:20:00 AM

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Hi Friends, as a direct result of that article that Larry wrote in the
Houston
paper, an Army sergeant Roy Y. responded and was twelve stepped by Larry.
Roy
was then sent to Tampa to finish his tour and started AA in Central Florida
(Tampa & St Pete) I belong to a group that Roy started in March of 1945 and
still is in existence today. So the Houston article was directly responsible
for
helping AA start here in Florida .........(AA comes of Age).

Thanks Ken W

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++++Message 2678. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Reliance On Various Sources In
Exploring AA History
From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2005 9:22:00 AM

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Merton,

Thank you for this! This should be required reading
for anyone who starts to think outside the Big Book.

It would be great to have Lois' unabridged diary
available and I hope the same will be considered for
Anne Smith.

George Cleveland

__________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR: For Merton's discussion of the kinds of sources which we
have available for AA history, see Message 2672 in the list of AAHL messages
at:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

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++++Message 2679. . . . . . . . . . . . 2nd tradition short form
From: Al Farley . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2005 9:53:00 AM

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When and why was the short form of the Second Tradition made longer than the
long form? What prompted the trusted servant addition?

Thanks

Al Farley

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++++Message 2680. . . . . . . . . . . . Help = history info needed
From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2005 1:50:00 PM

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Hi Folks: Charlie Bishop, Jr. here. I need some historical info for an
essay/post to you on

"Spirituality versus Legalism in A.A." I'm working on.
Specifically, I need a short summary with dates and other pertinent info
on...

1. AA dropped the circle and triangle and settled lawsuits against
manufacturers of medallions, etc.

As I understand it, AAWS by the G.S.C. was told to stop any further lawsuits
or
punitive actions. Year?

2. AAWS was involved in a controversy over which Mexican group should
publish
the Big Book.

One of the Mexican groups was raided by the police. Big publicity flap.
Year?

3. Ditto on an episode in Germany involving the non-approved publishing of
the
Big Book. Year?

4. AA lost the copyright to the first edition of the Big Book. What year?
1985?

5. The Big Book was published in small paperback format by John G.

Year? settlement?

6. In the past two or three years, several AA members have contacted me
after
their items about AA were removed from auction on eBay. This past month I
had
four items removed from eBay auctions by AAWS & eBay under the Vero program.

7. In the early years of A.A., a proposal to have a special act of Congress
to
incorporate AA was put forth but dropped because "spirituality cannot be
incorporated (?)"

Year? info? pre-1940?

Appreciate any help. Since I sold my library to Brown U. years ago, I don't
have much research material.

Please post your replies/help on AAHistory Lovers or directly to me at
bishopbk@comcast.net.

Phone calls welcome also = (304) 242-2937.

thanks, servus, Charlie Bishop, Jr.

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++++Message 2681. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tradition six wording change.
From: TH . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2005 4:39:00 PM

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At 05:44 9/25/2005 , Byron wrote:

>Hi group!
>I have a question concerning the change in the wording of the sixth
>Tradition.(SHORT FORM)
>
>There are several posts on this site that refer to the revision in
>the short form of tradition six that changed the wording
>from "Primary Spiritual Aim" to "Primary Purpose". These are noted
>in posts 1973, and 1736, under the 'time frame' of the date - 1949.
>
>The question I have is this. In what printing of the second edition
>did this change first appear?

The fifth printing, 1962, has spiritual aim, and the sixth printing, 1963,
has primary purpose. At least my copies do.

Tommy H. in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 2682. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Earliest 4th Step format
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2005 3:35:00 PM

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If one looks at Victor Kitchen's book I Was A Pagan you will find the
Oxford Group Game of Truth including the columns

Mitchell

______________________________

From the moderator (Glenn C.): For those who wish to look at it quickly, V.
C.
Kitchen's Game of Truth list is given at the very end of the chapter here:
http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang1.html

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++++Message 2683. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s "sponsees"
From: Higher Powered . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2005 9:25:00 PM

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I attended a recent workshop where it was stated that Dr. Bob took over
5000 men (sponsee's ?) through the Steps. Can someone tell me where that
information can be found?

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++++Message 2684. . . . . . . . . . . . The Nancy O. biographies of Big Book
authors
From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2005 2:37:00 AM

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AUTHORS OF BIG BOOK STORIES:

Very interested in the Nancy O. series of biographies. Is it published or is
it
available online?

I love all this information on this site.

In Service With Gratitude

Chuck P
__________________________________

Original message was from: ArtSheehan

Subject: Were any early women AA's involved in writing the Big Book?

This was message number: 2665 (see
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2665)

Arthur said in his message that:

"Part of the info below is extracted from a series of biographies written by
Nancy O who started AAHistoryLovers."

__________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn C.):

The West Baltimore AA Group's website, at
<http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm>, gives us short biographies of
all
the authors of the stories in the first three editions of "Alcoholics
Anonymous."

Al W. is the one who maintains this website. I asked Al whether this was the
set of biographies which Nancy Olson wrote, and he wrote back and said,
"Nancy
was involved in updating the biographies but I seem to recall that Archie M.
did
the original research -- not sure!"

Does anybody in the AAHistoryLovers know any more details about how this set
of
biographies was put together?

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++++Message 2685. . . . . . . . . . . . The founding of AA in West Central
Michigan
From: Bernard Wood . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2005 2:24:00 PM

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June 1, 2005 Carl D

This is Carl D. I got sober in Muskegon, Michigan in 1947. A.A. was
started in Muskegon by three guys,a guy that ended up to be my sponsor,
a corporate attorney, George P., who got sober up in Traverse City in a
State mental institution who heard about A.A. The second guy was a
purchasing agent at Seal Power, a piston ring factory in Muskegon, his
name was Ed Z. and the third guy was Elmer W . Those three started
A.A. in Muskegon And they met in the basement of the Nettle Building
in downtown Muskegon. It was an insurance and real estate building
and there was guy named Stu M. who got sober in a nut factory out in
Iowa and he had a piano down there in the basement of the Nettle
building and he gave piano lessons and he was a member of A.A. and we
held our Tuesday and Thursday night meetings in his studio there in the
basement of the Nettle building. The group grew quite rapidly
Everything was going fine until we got our first woman alcoholic, her
name was Barbara, a very attractive brunette. When she started coming
to meetings, our wives came right out of the wallpaper. Up to that
point they were happy to see us go to our meetings and stay sober.
Now, all of a sudden, they wanted to know what we talked about,
everything about the meetings. Everything went along pretty good until
the second woman alcoholic came along, then things were fine.
I’ll never forget Elmer W. was a very devout Catholic, and they made
him chairman of the meeting. The first night he chaired the meeting,
he sat down at the chairman’s table, he put the Holy Bible in front of
him and he moved the book Alcoholics Anonymous to the other end of the
table. And Elmer said “While I’m chairing this meeting , this is going
to be our “Big book.” George P. got up and walked up to the chairman’s
table, put his arm around Elmer and said “Elmer, this isn’t going to
work. We’re going to use the A.A. book. I’m sorry but I don't think we
should do it the way you want to do it.” Elmer said’ That’s
fine” and
he got up and never came back to A.A. He went to church every day and
he never drank ‘till the day he died.
A.A. had been in Muskegon about two or three years.before I got there.
A.A. expanded in Muskegon just like it did in every other town. A.A.
in all these towns grew. The funny thing about A.A. in the midwest and
maybe every where. The thing that made A.A. grow were disagreements in
the meetings. There would be an argument about who was going to chair
and whose plan they were going to follow, and there would be a couple
strong personalities. And now you got two groups. This went on all
over. That’s what made A.A. explode, was arguments.

June 7, 2005 Part 2
A.A. in Muskegon came from Grand Rapids. Grand Rapids came from
Detroit. A couple of drunks heard about A.A. meetings in Grand Rapids
and they went over there every Tuesday- no Monday night to the Life
Club and picked up a couple of drunks in Muskegon and started a
meeting there.
As I remember, the first two sober guys in Muskegon were Ed Z. and
Elmer W . I think the third one was George P and then Ivan B. and Jim
M . Those were the early members of A.A. in Muskegon. Actually,
when Muskegon got going, a couple of guys from Holland, MI went up
there to meetings and some came from Grand Haven. so that started
groups in Holland and Grand Haven. There was an old-timer out of
Kalamazoo named Glen C that moved over to Holland and he was a
“stem-winder” in that group in Holland. And Glen made a lot of
meetings in Grand Rapids too.
I would say Glen C. was the most aggressive, ardent,enthusiastic,
member of A.A. in western MI. He got sober in Jackson prison and his
buddy, Chi Walker got sober in Jackson prison too. Glen and Chi were
instrumental in the growth of A.A. in western Michigan, more than any
other two men. I never saw any two guys that were more loaded with
gratitude and joy for the A.A. program. They would defend A.A. to
their death if anybody said anything about it.

June 14, 2005 Part 3
My first meeting in A.A. was in Grand Rapids, Mi. I rode over from
Muskegon to Grand Rapids with my sponsor, George P. and Jim M . When
we got to Grand Rapids, the meeting was over the Third Precinct Police
station, a building I was very familiar with. We had the meeting up
there. There were quite a few people there. I knew a few of them. We
got down in front after the meeting a guy named Heine M., whose folks
owned the Muller Baking Co came up to me and said,”This is your first
meeting.” I said yes and he said,”Mine too.” He had just gotten out
of the the “nut factory” there in the south end of Grand Rapids was
run by the Christian Reformed Church. And Heine and I shook hands and
made an agreement with each other that if either one of us felt like
drinking we’d call the other one and Heine and I became long, long
friends.
Heine came to a very tragic end, He was coming home one night from an
A.A. meeting and a guy on a motorcycle had been hit by a car, and Heine
stopped and tried to help him and Heine had a heart attack and died.

Aug. 5, 2005
(recorded)

This is Carl D, a grateful member of a great fellowship, Alcoholics
Anonymous. And I want to tell you one thing, Alcoholics Anonymous had
a great impact on my life. I’m going to tell you all about it, just
hang on to your hats.
I came into A.A. in Muskegon, Michigan in December 1947. I was
whipped. I had broken my mother and father’s heart, drank up two
marriages, I drank up a business, had three summary court matials as a
flying officer. I had my name in the Hall of Fame on drinking, and I’m
sitting up there in my first A.A. meeting in Muskegon, MI scared to
death.
The meetings appealed to me. It was a pleasure sitting in the room
with a few other guys who had screwed up their lives just as bad as I
had, so they were real pals. Alcoholics Anonymous didn’t seem to mean
that much to me. As I kept going to meetings, I realized the few
friends I had made there in Muskegon had turned their lves around and
were living a good, clean, purposeful lives. They were taking care of
their family, they were paying their bills and they were very grateful
to the A.A. program for having their life back. You know, if there’s
any new people listening to this tape, let me say this, Don’t
complicate the A.A. program, it’s easy to complicate it, but don’t do
it. The guys that put this thing together were both drunks. they both
screwed thei life up royally. And they found out about sitting
together, talking about old times and about not drinking and helping
each other stay sober. There was a bond of fellowship and that was the
birth of A.A., talking about helping each other stay sober. And that’s
the nucleus that A.A. grew from. Today A.A. has hundreds of thousands
of A.A. meeting going on all over the world. It would be hard for me
to estimate how many drunks are sober because of A.A. _ there would be
a whole lot of them.
I went to those meeting there in Muskegon. As I said before I owed a
lot of money but I kept going to the meeting and I didn’t drink. I
was coming home one night from a particularly good meeting, I’m humming
a tune and whistling and all of a sudden it hit me as a real shocker, I
realized I’m happy and I don’t ha a bellyful of sauce. The miracle
had happened.
I’ve been in A.A. a long, long time and I just mentioned the word
miracle. Talking about miracles, I’m one. When you sit in as A.A.
meeting and you look around at the people in the meeting most of them
looking very happy, and satisfied with their life as a result of their
membership in A.A. What a tremendous fellowship this program is. Bob
and Bill had that exciting meeting, just think of what got started.
You know, in 1950 my wife and I went to Cleveland, Ohio to the first
big International meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. It was in the
summer of 1950. At that meeting on a Saturday night at the Holland Inn
In the main ballroom The cofounder Doctor Bob made his last public
appearance in A.A. He was dying of cancer (he died in November that
year) Dr. Bob got up and his remarks were very brief because he wasn’t
feeling very good. But, he said one thing that night, and I will
always maintain was the most horse-sensible, logical ting that’s ever
been said. Dr Bob said keep it simple. Don’t louse it up with a lot
of Freudian things, exciting to talk about but have very little to do
with staying sober. I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Bob that night.
I also met Bill several times. The first time I saw Bill was in 1948.
A bunch of us went from Muskegon Michigan to Detroit. Bill Wison
talked at Cass Tech that Saturday night. He was up there tall,
gangular, looked a lot like Jimmy Stewart., gave a terrific talk. I
met Bill several times after that. Bill chaired the Sunday morning
Spiritual meeting in St. Louis, Mo in 1955. It was our second
International Convention. What a meeing that was that Sunday morning.
Bill introduced the first speaker, a big, black doctor from Baltimore,
Md. who gave a terrific talk. The second speaker Bill introduced was
Sam Schumaker, the Episcopal priest that was President of the Oxford
Movement in New York city that got Ebby sober when Ebby came to Bill
with the story of the Oxford Movement, that was birth of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Sam Schumaker gave a terrific talk. The last speaker was
little Father Downing, the little hunchback priest that stumbled into
Bill’s Bowery Group in New York city in the early months of A.A. He
gave a terrific talk.
I’ve had some real wonderful experiences in A.A., some real wonderful
experiences in A.A. I just mentioned a few of them. I’ve had the
pleasure of sponsoring quite a few peoople in A.A. I wish I could
stand here and tell you that every one of them was a roaring success,
but you would know better than that. Everybody that we bring into A.A.
doesn’t have that sincere desire to do something about thair drinking
problem. I’ve seen a lot of them flub the program the first time
around.but later, maybe a few years, maybe a few months, they try and
they make it this time. That’s the way this thing works. It’s
certainly been a pleasure talking into this machine.
We must never forget the loving, provident God that brought us into
this fellowship. Let’s never forget this.

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++++Message 2686. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: question about 6 steps
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2005 4:39:00 PM

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MITCHELL K.:

To my knowledge it didn't matter which denomination
one belonged to.... it was Jesus as you understood Him

--- Ron Sessions <pqrgs@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have read several times (in this thread and other places) that the Oxford
Group espoused the idea of a God of your own understanding. This most
certainly
is not an Oxford Group ideal. They clearly believed in only one God - the
one
they found in the Bible they studied.

__________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn C.):

For understanding the Oxford Group, Mitchell's point here needs to be
remembered, because it is very important. The Oxford Group was a strongly
Christian movement, so in one way or another, Jesus Christ always stood at
the
center of the faith which the Oxford Group taught.

This was a major issue in AA in the late 1930s and early 1940s.

As an example of the kind of difference this could make: In the Oxford Group
book "God Calling by Two Listeners," prayers are directed to Jesus Christ
(the
divine Son of God the Father) and our help comes via Christ. In Richmond
Walker's book "Twenty-Four Hours a Day," where he gives AA adaptations of
some
of those meditations, he changes the wording so that our prayers are
directly to
God and our help comes directly from God, with no mention of Christ as an
intermediary.

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++++Message 2687. . . . . . . . . . . . Lois W. and Anne Smith''s diaries
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2005 8:10:00 PM

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Hi All,

May I respectfully suggest that A.A. members who agree with George write
the A.A. General Service Office (475 Riverside Drive, 10015) asking for
this service? The people at 475 are good people, but can you imagine
having over two million alcoholics as your "boss"? But they can serve
A.A. members only if they know what the members want.

ernie kurtz

__________________________

george cleveland wrote:

Merton,

Thank you for this! This should be required reading
for anyone who starts to think outside the Big Book.

It would be great to have Lois' unabridged diary
available and I hope the same will be considered for
Anne Smith.

George Cleveland

__________________________

From George C., Message 2678
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2678>

Responding to Merton M., "Reliance On Various Sources In Exploring AA
History,"
Message 2672
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2672>

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++++Message 2688. . . . . . . . . . . . Point 6 -- Incorporation
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2005 8:14:00 AM

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On the incorporation of A.A., see A.A. Comes of Age pp. 126-127. The
date was apparently 1953 (Advisory Actions of the General Service
Conference of A.A. 1951-2003 p. 143 under "Other Important Matters").

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++++Message 2689. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 2nd Tradition long short form
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2005 8:03:00 AM

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The "trusted servant" addition to the Second Tradition comes, of
course, from the long form of the Ninth Tradition. The discussion on
Tradition Twelve in the Grapevine in November 1948 makes it clear that
the "trusted servants" provision was still in the Ninth at that time.
At the time of the revision (the shortening suggested, I believe, by
Earl T. of Chicago, around 1950), the "trusted servants" passage in in
Step Two. For an educated guess, it was made in 1949-50, when it
became evident to Bill W. that it was in fact a spiritual principle
belonging there ("up front"). If someone has a more definite date,
I'll be happy to withdraw my tentative suggestions -- but we know it
was still in the Ninth in November 1948. -- Jared Lobdell

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++++Message 2690. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant October Dates in AA
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2005 11:27:00 PM

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Oct 1936 - Bill C. a Canadian alkie staying at Bill's house,
committed suicide using a gas stove.
Oct 1939 - 1st central committee formed in Cleveland; 1st example
A.A. rotation.
Oct 1942 - 1st issue of Cleveland Central Bulletin is published.
Oct 1944 - First non American branch started in Sydney, Australia by
Father T V Dunlea & Rex.
Oct 1951 - Lasker Award given to AA by American Public Health Assoc.
Oct 1951 - Sister Ignatia wrote "Care of Alcoholics - St.Thomas
Hospital & A.A. Started Movement Which Swept Country" article
in "Hospital Progress" the journal of Catholic Hospital Association.
Oct 1954 - The "Alcoholic Foundation" renamed the "General Service
Board of A.A."
Oct 1958 - Playhouse 90 TV airs "The Days of Wine and Roses".
Oct 1, 1941 - Local news reports 1st AA Group in New Haven, CT.
Oct 1, 1957 - Book "A.A. Comes of Age" published.
Oct 2, 1944 - Marty M. founded National Committee Education
Alcoholism,
later became National Council on Alcoholism.
Oct 3, 1945 - AA Grapevine adopted as national publication of AA.
Oct 5-7, 1972 - 2nd World Service meeting held in New York.
Oct 5, 1988 - Lois Burnam Wilson died.
Oct 6, 1941 - 900 dine at Cleveland dinner for Bill D, AA #3.
Oct 8, 1988 - Memorial Service for Lois W at Stepping Stones, NY.
Oct. 9-11, 1969 - 1st World Service meeting held in New York with
delegates from 14 countries.
Oct 10, 1943 - 6 of 1st 9 AA's attend clubhouse anniv. in Toledo.
Oct 10, 1970 - Lois reads "Bills Last Message" at annual dinner in
NY.
Oct 10, 1988 - Lois is buried next to Bill in Manchester, Vermont.
Oct 13, 1947 - "The Melbourne Group" held its first meeting in
Australia.
Oct 14, 1939 - Journal of American Medical Association gives Big
Book unfavorable review.
Oct 15, 1904 - Marty M, early AA woman, is born in Chicago.
Oct 17, 1935 - Ebby T, Bills sponsor, moves in with Bill and Lois.
Oct 20, 1928 - Bill wrote promise to Lois in family Bible to quit
drinking. By Thanksgiving added second promise.
Oct 21, 1939 - Cleveland Plain Dealer begins series of articles on
AA of by Elrick Davis.
Oct 22, 1963 - E M Jellinek, alcoholism educator and AA friend dies.
Oct 24, 1942 - L.A. Times reports AA groups in 14 California cities.
Oct 24, 1943 - Wilson's start 1st major A.A. tour, returned Jan 19,
1944.
Oct 24, 1973 - Trustee's Archives Committee of AA has its 1st
meeting.
Oct 28, 1994 - National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence
celebrates 50 years.

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++++Message 2691. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s "sponsees"
From: jocisoo7@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2005 11:12:00 AM

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in the big book.. his story.. called doctor bob's nightmare.

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++++Message 2692. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Nancy O. biographies of Big
Book authors
From: TH . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2005 3:31:00 PM

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At 02:37 9/27/2005 , Chuck Parkhurst wrote:

>AUTHORS OF BIG BOOK STORIES:
>
>Very interested in the Nancy O. series of biographies. Is it published or
>is it available online?
>
>I love all this information on this site.
>
>In Service With Gratitude
>
>Chuck P
>__________________________________

Those biographies credited to the late Nancy O are at:

<http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm>

I find it an excellent source. Read it and tell me who the first woman
A.A. was? Then tell me the first with lengthy sobriety?

One of the answers contradicts what Bill Wilson told us.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 2693. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Help = history info needed
From: Jim . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2005 12:41:00 PM

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Good day Charlie!

The following site, some would believe, has controversial content concerning
Alcoholics Anonymous, however, you will be able to find answers to some of
your
questions there simply by browsing this site.

It is an interesting site, with some content of AA I have not been able to
bring
myself to reprint on my site. The way I see it, if it works, don't fix it.

The site: AA GSO Watch (http://gsowatch.aamo.info/)

In service,Jim M.

silkworth.net

===========================================
"Let us also remember to guard that erring member - the tongue, and if we
must
use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance." -Dr.
Bob,
Sunday, July 30, 1950 http://silkworth.net/aahistory/drbob_farewell.html
===========================================

MODERATOR (Glenn C.)
Charlie Bishop, Jr., wrote in to the group in Message 2680 (see
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2680).

He said in that message, "Hi Folks: Charlie Bishop, Jr. here. I need some
historical info for an essay/post to you on 'Spirituality versus Legalism in
A.A.'"

Charlie went on to say that he is looking for as much information as he can
get
on legal controversies over the Circle and Triangle logo and translations of
the
Big Book into German and Spanish, and so on.

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++++Message 2694. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The founding of AA in West
Central Michigan
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2005 6:24:00 PM

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Hi History Lovers,
I was very interested in the Western Michigan history by Carl D. I
believe this is the same Carl D. I knew in Michigan back in the 1950s. I
heard him speak several times and also saw him at conferences, including the
Michigan State Conference in Lansing in 1955. I thought Carl was from Grand
Rapids at the time, and there were several other younger people from there.
I was thirty and on one of the Young People in AA panels at that 1955 state
conference in Lansing. I don't think I saw Carl after the late 1950s, and
the last I heard was that he had moved to Florida and done very well in the
tile business or something like that. If anybody knows Carl, please tell
him hello from Mel Barger, formerly from Jackson but now a resident of
Toledo since 1972, with 55 years' sobriety.

Mel Barger
________________________

Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com
________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bernard Wood" <bern-donna@earthlink.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 3:24 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The founding of AA in West Central Michigan

June 1, 2005 Carl D

This is Carl D. I got sober in Muskegon, Michigan in 1947 ....

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++++Message 2695. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First edition Symbol
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2005 8:43:00 PM

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Reference AA Comes of Age pg 139.

Cheers
Arthur

_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aaiou_1995
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:52 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First edition Symbol

I am new to the group and appreciate all of the information that was
compiled here. I was curious about the symbol used in the First
Edition of the big book. The symbol used where the Circle and Triangle
is in the later printings. Is there any information concerning its
meaning?

Thanks,

George b.

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscrib
e>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

_____

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2696. . . . . . . . . . . . Thank you to all
From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2005 6:41:00 AM

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Fellow sufferers

Thank you to all (and I mean many)
who sent email and replies about the
Nancy O biography and information
on the background of many of the author's of
the personal stories in ALL the editions.
It is very much appreciated and I want
to say again how much I enjoy all the knowledge,
helpfulness and information I have received from
this group.

In Service With Gratitude

Chuck P

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2697. . . . . . . . . . . . New Lois Wilson Book
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2005 7:16:00 AM

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The Lois Wilson Story:
When Love is Not Enough:
The Authorized Biography of the Cofounder of Al-Anon (Hardcover)
By William Borchert
Foreward by Robert Hoguet

Product Details:
Hardcover: 400 pages
Publisher: HAZELDEN (October 15, 2005)
Language: English
ISBN: 1592853285

Book Description:
A long-awaited look at the unsung story of Lois Wilson, wife of the famously
anonymous Bill W.
Acclaimed author and screenwriter William G. Borchert does a masterful job
in revealing the life and times of this spirited and determined woman,
exploring the tender emotional territory beyond Lois’s role in the
formation
of AA and the subsequent creation of Al-Anon. From her privileged childhood
in turn-of-the-century New York City, to her unexpected but exhilarating
courtship with the dashing Bill Wilson, to her socialite status as a "Wall
Street Wife" in the Roaring Twenties, to the couple’s audacious
cross-country motorcycle excursions in the 1930s, Lois was every bit the
adventure-seeker her legendary husband was. But nothing could have prepared
her for the chaos, pain, and loss caused by her beloved Bill’s
seventeen-year descent into the depths of alcoholism. In the end, however,
her husband’s addiction proved not to be the tragic undoing of this
brilliant, promising couple, but rather the beginning of one of the
twentieth century’s most important social movements.

Features a 16-page section of black-and-white archival photographs.

About the Author:
William G. Borchert was nominated for an Emmy in 1989 for writing the
screenplay for the highly acclaimed Warner Brothers/Hallmark Hall of Fame
movie My Name Is Bill W. His background includes reporting for a New York
City daily newspaper and a major media wire service, writing for a national
magazine, and creating syndicated shows for radio. As a partner at Artists
Entertainment Complex, Borchert produced several box office hits, including
Serpico and Dog Day Afternoon. He lives in New York City and South Carolina.

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++++Message 2698. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant October Dates in AA
History
From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2005 2:33:00 PM

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AA Historians and fellow sufferers,

Below in the significant October dates in AA history
under October 14th, is an unfavorable review of the
Big Book by the AMA. Has anyone seen a copy of this
review or know where it is available on line or through
our conference approved literature?

Thank you

In Service With Gratitude

Chuck P

________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: chesbayman56
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 9:27 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant October Dates in AA History

.... Oct 14, 1939 - Journal of American Medical Association gives Big Book
unfavorable review ....

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++++Message 2699. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Source of four phrases ("King
Baby")
From: Jeffrey Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2005 8:36:00 AM

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KING BABY

In regard to the following:

(3) From: "jwm_az" Subject: King Baby
Does anyone know where I can find an explicit reference to the phrase "King
Baby" in AA Conference Approved Literature? Thanks!

As far as I'm aware, the statement "King Baby" does not appear in "AA
Conference
Approved Literature".

Although, an article by Dr. H. Tiebout, "The Ego Factors in Surrender in
Alcoholism", references the following statement, which Tiebout attributes to
Sigmund Freud,

“His Majesty the Baby”. A quick net search revealed that the above
referenced
paper by Dr. Tiebout, along with some biographical information, can be found
at
silkworth.net.

Yours in service,

Jeff J
_______________________________

al030188 <alev101@aol.com> wrote:
Where do these phrases come from: (1) "bridge back to life," (2) "strange
camels," (3) "King Baby," and (4) "boiled as an owl"?

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++++Message 2701. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s 9th step
From: skeptical538 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2005 12:29:00 PM

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At our meeting today we read from a passage regarding cautions in
performing a 9th step -especially in hurting wives and loved ones.
Help me. Is there any record of Bill actually making amends for his
womanizing to Lois?

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++++Message 2702. . . . . . . . . . . . Pamphlets
From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2005 3:14:00 PM

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First off, I joined this group in the last couple months and I think
it's a great thing.

I've come across some pamphlets that I am not familiar with and was
wondering if someone could provide some information on them?

Three of the pamphlets seem to be published by the Chicago Area
Alcoholics Anonymous Service Office. They are
titled "Willingness," "The Long Haul," and "A.A. A Simple Program
Simply Explained."

The next pamphlet is published by the Cleveland Central Committee of
A.A. and is titled "Misunderstanding."

When were these first published? Are they still published? Any
idea on who was involved with writing them?

Finally, I have a small pamphlet published in 1967 by Alcoholics
Anonymous World Services, Inc. titled "What happened to Joe and his
drinking problem..." How long was this published and were there
others similar to it?

Thanks for the time and consideration.

Chris Budnick
Raleigh, NC

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++++Message 2703. . . . . . . . . . . . Bylaws for A.A. groups
From: Gallery Photography . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2005 12:22:00 AM

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I have a question. I know some are against the very idea but many groups
have a set of "by-laws". Do any of you belong to a group that does and if
so, do you have a copy that I could see. My home group has decided to do
this and I've been asked to find some samples. Hopefully some of you do or
can send me in the right direction to find some examples. Our group needs a
few set things written down for all to follow. Simple things like;
responsibilities of a chairperson, how to handle disturbances, etc... The
organized chaos has gotten too extreme. Thanks.

Rotax Steve
Nangi namaj perez

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++++Message 2704. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant October Dates in AA
History
From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2005 1:59:00 PM

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In Ernie Kurtz' book "Not God" the review is referenced in a note on
page 92, with the quote, "This book is a curious combination of
organizing propaganda and religious exhortation. ...The one valid
thing in the book is the recognition of the seriousness of addiction
to alcohol. Other than this, the book has no scientific merit or
interest."

John Keller

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Parkhurst"
<ineedpage63@c...> wrote:
>
> AA Historians and fellow sufferers,
>
> Below in the significant October dates in AA history
> under October 14th, is an unfavorable review of the
> Big Book by the AMA. Has anyone seen a copy of this
> review or know where it is available on line or through
> our conference approved literature?
>
> Thank you
>
> In Service With Gratitude
>
> Chuck P
>
> ________________________________
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: chesbayman56
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 9:27 PM
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant October Dates in AA History
>
> .... Oct 14, 1939 - Journal of American Medical Association gives
Big Book unfavorable review ....
>

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++++Message 2706. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr. Bob''s "sponsees"
From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2005 1:45:00 AM

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"I attended a recent workshop where it was stated that Dr. Bob took over
5000 men (sponsee's ?) through the Steps. Can someone tell me where that
information can be found?"

I am not too sure about that number of sponsees, but, I do know that is the
number of people who went through the detox unit(s) Dr. Bob ran. I believe
that is mentioned in the book about Sister Ignatia.

tmd

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++++Message 2707. . . . . . . . . . . . Comparison between "I Was a Pagan"
Game of Truth" and Hank P.''s Steps
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2005 5:58:00 PM

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Hi Mitch and Glenn,

[When reading the link to hindsfoot.org's citation of the "Game of
Truth" quoted from the Oxford Group VC Kitchen's book "I Was a Pagan"
I noticed for the first time the stong similarity between this
potential model and HAnk's unpublished suggestions to Bill. I've read
both many times before but never made the connection. I've listed both
below. Thank you both.]

[start Kitchen quote - source hindfoot.org]
[non-text is bracketed]
This whole change in the direction of my life can best, perhaps, be
illustrated through a version of the game of "truth" taught me by a
member of the Oxford Group. You write down the five things you
honestly like most in life. And you write down the five things you
most hate. Then -- if any change has come into your life -- you write
them down again to show the comparison between your old life and the
new. This is how the game works out for me:

IN MY OLD LIFE

I most liked:
Myself.
Liquor, tobacco and almost every other stimulant, narcotic and form of
self-indulgence.
Anything which gave me pleasure, possessions, power, position and
applause, or pumped up my self-esteem.
To be left largely to myself.
My wife -- because of the comforting and complimentary way she treated me.

I hated most:
Poverty (for myself).
Prohibition.
Work.
People who disapproved or tried to interfere with me.
Any betrayal of my inner thoughts or emotions.

IN MY NEW LIFE

I most like:
God.
Time alone with God. The fellowship of the living Jesus Christ.
The stimulation of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God's guidance.
My wife -- because of the things God now enables us to do for each other.
Communion with others who are trying to lead the same kind of
Christ-centered life and the witnessing to all of what Christ has come
to mean to me.

I hate most:
Sin.
Self, because "I" is the middle letter of SIN.
Sins that separate me from God.
Sins that separate me from people.
Anything that falls short of God's plan for me.

[This is Hank's pre-Big Book note to Bill. The source is unfinished
manuscript "Black Sheep". It was transcribed directly from
the original which was in Hank's very distinctive and familiar style.]

[Any additons I made are in brackets [].]

[start]
One of the easiest and most talked about of things among us is a
religious experience. I believe that this is incomprehensible to most
people. Simple and meaning words to us - but meaningless to most of
the people that we are trying to get this over to.

" In my mind religious experience - religion - ect. should not be
brought in. We are actually irreligious - but we are trying to be
helpful - we have learned to be quiet - to be more truthful - to be
more honest - to try to be more unselfish - to make other fellows
troubles - our troubles - and by following four steps most of us have
a religious experience. The fellowship - the unselfishness appeals to us.

"I wonder if we are off the track.
"A very good merchandising procedure is to find out why people do not
buy our products - it is good reasoning to find out WHY - I am
fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing religious experience when
actually that is something that follows as a result of 1 - 2 - 3 - 4.

"In my mind the question is not particularly the strength of the
experience as much as the improvement over what we were. I would ask a
man to compare himself as follows after say a month –

" #1 - As compared to 2 months ago do you have more of a feeling that
there is a power greater than you [?]

" #2 - Have you cleaned out more completely with a human being than
ever before?

" #3 - Have you less bad things behind you than ever before [?]
" #4 - Have you been more honest with youself and your fellow man -
Have you been more honest with yourself and your fellow man - Have you
been more thoughtful of people with whom you are associated - Has your
life been cleaner both by thought & action - Have you looked at others
less critically and yourself more critically this last 30 days. You
will never be perfect but the question is have you been more perfect ?"

[stop]

[merton]

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++++Message 2708. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Pamphlets
From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2005 2:17:00 PM

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The three pamphlets from chicago are still being printed and offered through
their book store:

http://www.chicagoaa.org/bookstore/index.htm

Look at publications from other publishers.

Jim

> First off, I joined this group in the last couple months and I think
> it's a great thing.
>
> I've come across some pamphlets that I am not familiar with and was
> wondering if someone could provide some information on them?
>
> Three of the pamphlets seem to be published by the Chicago Area
> Alcoholics Anonymous Service Office. They are
> titled "Willingness," "The Long Haul," and "A.A. A Simple Program
> Simply Explained."
>
> The next pamphlet is published by the Cleveland Central Committee of
> A.A. and is titled "Misunderstanding."
>
> When were these first published? Are they still published? Any
> idea on who was involved with writing them?
>
> Finally, I have a small pamphlet published in 1967 by Alcoholics
> Anonymous World Services, Inc. titled "What happened to Joe and his
> drinking problem..." How long was this published and were there
> others similar to it?
>
> Thanks for the time and consideration.
>
> Chris Budnick
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2709. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: JAMA''S review of the Big
ook
From: aapup1@webtv.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2005 2:39:00 PM

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Here is the URL for the JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association)
review of the Big Book:

http://www.morerevealed.com/arc_jama_bb_review.jsp

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++++Message 2710. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant October Dates in AA
History
From: Doug Hart . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2005 5:34:00 PM

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Book reviews of the Big Book are available at this site, Chuck. The AMA
Journal review is near the end of the long list:
http://www.aabibliography.com/aa_big_book_book_reviews.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Parkhurst" <ineedpage63@cox.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant October Dates in AA History

> AA Historians and fellow sufferers,
>
> Below in the significant October dates in AA history
> under October 14th, is an unfavorable review of the
> Big Book by the AMA. Has anyone seen a copy of this
> review or know where it is available on line or through
> our conference approved literature?
>
> Thank you
>
> In Service With Gratitude
>
> Chuck P
>
> ________________________________
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: chesbayman56
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 9:27 PM
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant October Dates in AA History
>
> .... Oct 14, 1939 - Journal of American Medical Association gives Big Book
> unfavorable review ....
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2712. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: JAMA''S review of the Big Book
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2005 12:49:00 PM

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Hi Chuck,

Ashamed to admit that I reprinted it in *Not-God* (as well as the one
from the JNMD), but I do not have a copy at hand. It should be indexed,
though.

ernie kurtz

________________________________

Chuck Parkhurst wrote:

> AA Historians and fellow sufferers,
>
> Below in the significant October dates in AA history
> under October 14th, is an unfavorable review of the
> Big Book by the AMA. Has anyone seen a copy of this
> review or know where it is available on line or through
> our conference approved literature?
>
> Thank you
>
> In Service With Gratitude
>
> Chuck P
>
> ________________________________
>
> ----- Original Message -----

> From: chesbayman56
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 9:27 PM
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant October Dates in AA History
>
> .... Oct 14, 1939 - Journal of American Medical Association gives Big Book

unfavorable review ....

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++++Message 2713. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bylaws for A.A. groups
From: Cheryl C . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2005 1:41:00 PM

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I thought that Rule 62 was "Don't take yourself to damn serious." From the
12
and 12 page 149.
_________________________________

Cheryl,

You're right, I sure got that story wrong! Let me rub the egg off my face at
this point. I have corrected it below, and will delete the message where I
got
it wrong.

My wife once said to me, "Glenn, the problem with you is that you ARE right
93%
of the time." I responded, "No, the problem is that I am dead wrong 7% of
the
time, but am usually the last to know."

Glenn
_________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: jocisoo7@aol.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Bylaws for A.A. groups

Twelve Traditions, Twelve Concepts, Rule 62: responses from jocisoo7, from
C.
Cook = ccp28para4@yahoo.com, and from the moderator.
_________________________________

From: jocisoo7@aol.com Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005

We are guided by the traditions.
_________________________________

From: "C. Cook" <ccp28para4@yahoo.com> Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005

I believe that a set of by-laws is a good idea. The problem is, there is no
one 'in charge' to see that they are being adhered to. Take it from someone
who
tried desperately to make sure that happened at their own home group. If you
belong to a group that meets at a foundation run club, the two sets of
by-laws
MUST be kept separate.

Just my two cents.

C. Cook
_________________________________

From the moderator: some notes on AA history.

When I go to conferences, I wear a pin on my jacket which says "Rule 62."
It's a
story from pages 148-149 in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions. An AA "super
promoter" tried to set up a complicated organization with 61 rules and
regulations. The operation soon blew apart from total chaos and confusion,
"like that day the boiler burst in Wembley's Clapboard Factory." The
promoter,
having learned his lesson, sent a little card to the Foundation office in
New
York. "The cover read: 'Middleton Group #1. Rule #62.' Once the card was
unfolded, a single pungent sentence leaped to the eye: 'Don't take yourself
too
damn seriously.'" [CORRECTED VERSION OF THIS STORY]

People in AA talk continually about the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,
but almost never mention the Twelve Concepts. Most AA members have never
even
read them. They can be found in a booklet called "The A.A. Service Manual
Combined With Twelve Concepts for World Service, by Bill W., 2004-2005
Edition,
Reflecting the Actions of the 2004 General Service Conference."

In my observation, the overwhelming majority of bitter disputes in AA
groups,
Area Assemblies, and so on, could be solved instantly if anyone had read the
Twelve Concepts, which explain some quite reasonable ways of dealing with
these
issues. The concepts as Bill W. wrote them deal mainly with the Trustees and
the General Service Conference and other national and international AA
bodies,
but the general principles are also applicable to individual AA groups, and
the
long form of the concepts refers in a number of places to the relationship
between an individual AA group and higher levels of AA organization.

The Twelve Concepts discuss the Right of Decision, the Right of
Participation,
the Right of Appeal, and a number of important basic principles: "Every
service
responsibility should be matched by an equal service authority, with the
scope
of such authority well defined." We must take care that no AA body "becomes
the
seat of perilous wealth or power," and in particular, we must ensure that
things
are organized in such a way that "it place none of its members in a position
of
unqualified authority over others."

Other principles laid down in the concepts are: "That its actions never be
personally punitive." "That it never perform acts of government."

One especially important principle is "That it reach all important decisions
by discussion, vote, and, whenever possible, by substantial unanimity."

It is also stated in the concepts that when an individual AA group is
holding
a group conscience session, the only people who are allowed to speak and
vote
are those who have been attending that group regularly for a considerable
period
of time, and actively participating in the group and its activities.

So if an AA group is holding a proper group conscience session (made up only
of the people who have been attending and participating in that particular
group
for a long period of time), and the group is nevertheless unable to achieve
anything close to "substantial unanimity" on a bylaw or group rule, that
probably means that God did not want a rule or bylaw on that issue.

It will also mean (smile) that anyone who starts to feel too frustrated and
filled with resentment by that should probably read the bottom of page 60 in
the
Big Book and all of page 61.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction
recovery center
Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous

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++++Message 2714. . . . . . . . . . . . Each Day a New Beginning
From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2005 7:28:00 PM

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I am currently doing some research on women's experiences in AA, as my
last post revealed. I am interested in hearing any thoughts on the
appearance in the early 1980s of the Hazelden-published meditation book
for women, *Each Day A New Beginning*. It is structured similar to *24
Hours a Day,* but has a very different feel to it. I'm curious to know
what people thought of it-- if they thought of it-- when it appeared in
1983. Trysh Travis

FROM THE MODERATOR:
Please do NOT send your reply to us here at the AAHistoryLovers, but send
your
reply DIRECTLY TO TRYSH TRAVIS at the University of Florida in Gainesville:

<ttravis@wst.ufl.edu>

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++++Message 2715. . . . . . . . . . . . Keep It Simple, Stupid
From: TH . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2005 2:34:00 PM

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Glenn,

I associate the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) with the Army in the late
'40s.
It was well entrenched by the time I took college ROTC in 1957.

Do you have any idea if it was an Army term borrowed by A.A. or the other
way
around? I suspect the former.

Another qq: I visited my son in Bloomington two years ago when he was
attending IU at the Army's expense, but that is another story. I made
about seven meetings and none of them used the Lord's Prayer to
close. Most of the time the Third Step Prayer was used and one group used I
am
Responsible. Is this characteristic of the general area or is it just
Bloomington? I have been to mtgs here Baton Rouge, NE Vermont, Montreal and
the
Eastern Townships, and have not encountered use of anything but the use of
the
LP to close the mtg.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 2716. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bylaws for A.A. groups
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2005 4:55:00 PM

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Glen wrote
In my observation, the overwhelming majority of bitter disputes in AA
groups, Area Assemblies, and so on, could be solved instantly if anyone had
read the Twelve Concepts, which explain some quite reasonable ways of
dealing with these issues.

Just my .02$ and nothing personal.

The concepts have nothing to do with my group or any other group.

The concepts explain the historical relationships of the parts of the
service structure to the whole and the aim is to prevent change which is
driven by anger and change for the sake of change. Concepts are structural
in their nature.

When we seek to impose "structure" on the group we kill spirit.

Either the group has spirit or it does not but structure can never be a
substitute for spirit. This is why the 9th tradition states that AA as such
ought never be organized. Each group is a spiritual entity.

So, organize a group so as you have rules, by-laws and such and you crush
the "spirit."

My experience is that when groups get involved in creating structure, the
real alkies run.

I've been a member of the same group for 24 years and I've watched the
organizers come and go (usually folks heavily involved in service who don't
sponsor drunks). Recovery and good sponsorship keeps people in groups.

I just learned to sit back and asnswer questions from the newer people
(without imposing my opinions on them) and eventually everything rotates
back to spirit driving the group.

Milton Maxwell, in his comparison to the Washingtonians noted that AA's
strength is the democratic process that exists in the groups and warned
against organization (structure). The way the group runs is a reflection of
the personalities in the group.

Imposing ideas like service sponsors on any level below delegate (this was
what it was created for in 1983 to help delegates not feel overwhelmed) and
group inventories conduced by outside moderators crushes the spirit.

Groups that get caught up in this problem usually don't sponsor many people
into the group and they end up naval gazing and trying to make the wheel
rounder.

Of course, everyone is free to do as they see fit but that in itself does
not make it right.
Jim B.

BTW, I live in Area 87 which has 600 French groups that tend to be more
"social" than the 160 english groups and some of the French groups have
"owners" who direct the groups.

Most French groups that have business meetings have their business meeting
before the main meeting and if your wife or brother are with you they can
vote too.

English groups tend to be much more Democratic.

Remember that drunks can't be pushed but can be pulled!
Jim

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++++Message 2717. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s 9th step
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2005 7:54:00 PM

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I'm not sure if this falls under "except when to do so would injure
them or others"....

I had asked Nell Wing about asking Lois about this amends during our
many visits together. Nell told me that under no circumstances could I
ever mention Bill's womanizing. I was also told that Nan Robertson's
book was never brought up to Lois after it was published. I don't think
there is any "record" of Bill making amends and from my many visits
with Lois and friendship with Nell... I do not think any amends were
ever made or if they were, it was taboo to bring them up to Lois.
>
> At our meeting today we read from a passage regarding cautions in
> performing a 9th step -especially in hurting wives and loved ones.
> Help me. Is there any record of Bill actually making amends for his
> womanizing to Lois?
>

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++++Message 2718. . . . . . . . . . . . Who was the super promoter?
From: Archie Bunkers . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2005 6:17:00 PM

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I enjoy AAHL very much and appreciate the knowledge on the subject by
everyone.

Could anyone answer this question? Who was the "super promoter" referred to
on
pages 148 - 149 in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions who was responsible
for
Rule #62?

Thank you in advance,
Archie

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++++Message 2719. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bylaws for A.A. groups
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2005 4:58:00 PM

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Note: where the symbol “[ital]” appears, it means the text in between
is italicized in the cited source.

The word “bylaw” can all too easily convey the image of legalism and
rigid organization structure and produce a grimace or two in AA.

Yet, the word "bylaw" has a constructive context in Concept X (long
form) “Every service responsibility should be matched by an equal
service authority - the scope of such authority to be always well
defined whether by tradition, by resolution, by specific job
description or by appropriate charters and bylaws.”

Text for the 9th Tradition in the pamphlet “The 12 Traditions
Illustrated” begins with “The words ‘Let’s keep it simple’ were
the
last Bill W heard from his fellow founder of AA, shortly before Dr
Bob’s death in 1950. Aware that ‘it’ meant our [ital] recovery [ital]
program, Bill later wrote ‘We need to distinguish sharply between
spiritual simplicity and functional simplicity … When we get into
questions of actions by groups, by areas and by AA as a whole, we find
that we must to some extent [ital] organize [ital] to carry the
message - or else face chaos. And chaos is not simplicity.”

So the words "authority," "bylaw," and "organization" have their
proper place in AA (although often disparaged).

“The AA Group” pamphlet is a wide ranging gold mine of information on
applying the Traditions and Concepts to a variety of group matters. It
can serve as a very effective set of group guidelines (or “bylaws” if
that word is preferred).

The pamphlet identifies itself as an information tool, a suggested
guide for groups and a complement to the AA Service Manual. It
achieves all that and then some.

Cheers
Arthur

PS

"The AA Group" pamphlet can be downloaded as a searchable PDF file
from the AA.org web site. An updated version is supposed to be
released this month. The Service Manual can be downloaded as well.

As searchable PDF files the process of finding specific subjects of
interest by keyword is made so much easier.

PPS

In the 12&12 Tradition 4 essay text, Rule #62 is given the standing of
being the "acme" (high point) of humility - as such, it might be a
good preface to any set of bylaws.

________________________________________
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cheryl C
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:41 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Bylaws for A.A. groups

I thought that Rule 62 was "Don't take yourself to damn serious." From
the 12 and 12 page 149.
_________________________________

Cheryl,

You're right, I sure got that story wrong! Let me rub the egg off my
face at this point. I have corrected it below, and will delete the
message where I got it wrong.

My wife once said to me, "Glenn, the problem with you is that you ARE
right 93% of the time." I responded, "No, the problem is that I am
dead wrong 7% of the time, but am usually the last to know."

Glenn
_________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: jocisoo7@aol.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Bylaws for A.A. groups

Twelve Traditions, Twelve Concepts, Rule 62: responses from
jocisoo7, from C. Cook = ccp28para4@yahoo.com, and from the moderator.
_________________________________

From: jocisoo7@aol.com Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005

We are guided by the traditions.
_________________________________

From: "C. Cook" <ccp28para4@yahoo.com> Date: Sat Oct 8, 2005

I believe that a set of by-laws is a good idea. The problem is,
there is no one 'in charge' to see that they are being adhered to.
Take it from someone who tried desperately to make sure that happened
at their own home group. If you belong to a group that meets at a
foundation run club, the two sets of by-laws MUST be kept separate.

Just my two cents.

C. Cook
_________________________________

From the moderator: some notes on AA history.

When I go to conferences, I wear a pin on my jacket which says "Rule
62." It's a story from pages 148-149 in Twelve Steps and Twelve
Traditions. An AA "super promoter" tried to set up a complicated
organization with 61 rules and regulations. The operation soon blew
apart from total chaos and confusion, "like that day the boiler burst
in Wembley's Clapboard Factory." The promoter, having learned his
lesson, sent a little card to the Foundation office in New York. "The
cover read: 'Middleton Group #1. Rule #62.' Once the card was
unfolded, a single pungent sentence leaped to the eye: 'Don't take
yourself too damn seriously.'" [CORRECTED VERSION OF THIS STORY]

People in AA talk continually about the Twelve Steps and Twelve
Traditions, but almost never mention the Twelve Concepts. Most AA
members have never even read them. They can be found in a booklet
called "The A.A. Service Manual Combined With Twelve Concepts for
World Service, by Bill W., 2004-2005 Edition, Reflecting the Actions
of the 2004 General Service Conference."

In my observation, the overwhelming majority of bitter disputes in
AA groups, Area Assemblies, and so on, could be solved instantly if
anyone had read the Twelve Concepts, which explain some quite
reasonable ways of dealing with these issues. The concepts as Bill W.
wrote them deal mainly with the Trustees and the General Service
Conference and other national and international AA bodies, but the
general principles are also applicable to individual AA groups, and
the long form of the concepts refers in a number of places to the
relationship between an individual AA group and higher levels of AA
organization.

The Twelve Concepts discuss the Right of Decision, the Right of
Participation, the Right of Appeal, and a number of important basic
principles: "Every service responsibility should be matched by an
equal service authority, with the scope of such authority well
defined." We must take care that no AA body "becomes the seat of
perilous wealth or power," and in particular, we must ensure that
things are organized in such a way that "it place none of its members
in a position of unqualified authority over others."

Other principles laid down in the concepts are: "That its actions
never be personally punitive." "That it never perform acts of
government."

One especially important principle is "That it reach all important
decisions by discussion, vote, and, whenever possible, by substantial
unanimity."

It is also stated in the concepts that when an individual AA group
is holding a group conscience session, the only people who are allowed
to speak and vote are those who have been attending that group
regularly for a considerable period of time, and actively
participating in the group and its activities.

So if an AA group is holding a proper group conscience session (made
up only of the people who have been attending and participating in
that particular group for a long period of time), and the group is
nevertheless unable to achieve anything close to "substantial
unanimity" on a bylaw or group rule, that probably means that God did
not want a rule or bylaw on that issue.

It will also mean (smile) that anyone who starts to feel too
frustrated and filled with resentment by that should probably read the
bottom of page 60 in the Big Book and all of page 61.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction
Addiction recovery center
Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SPONSORED LINKS
Addiction recovery program
Recovery from addiction
Addiction recovery center
Christian addiction recovery
Alcoholics anonymous

________________________________________
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

• Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

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AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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Service.

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++++Message 2720. . . . . . . . . . . . What happened to Rowland Hazard?
From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2005 3:31:00 AM

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Hi all,

Our question to the history lovers is does anyone know what happened to
Rowland
Hazard, who is mentioned in the "There Is a Solution" chapter in the Big
Book.

Thank you,

Tracy, Big Book Study Group in England

_____________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn C.):

In his book *The Road to Fellowship* -- see
<http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html>
and <http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html> -- in Chapter 4, Richard Dubiel says
(based on a study of the Hazard family correspondence) that:

Rowland Hazard was heavily involved in business ventures in Ne York and New
Mexico between 1930 and early 1933.

The only time he could have visited Carl Jung was during a family trip to
Europe
from June to September in 1931, and it seems very unlikely that he could
have
spent more than a couple of weeks seeing Dr. Jung.

Hazard was hospitalized for alcoholism in February and March of 1932, and he
was
virtually incapacitated (in terms of being able to conduct any kind of
business
whatsoever) from February 1933 until October 1934.

He was a patient of Courtenay Baylor during 1932 and 1934.

Rowland was very active in 1934 in the Oxford Group.

He helped rescue Ebby Thacher from the Brattleboro Asylum in August 1934.
(Ebby
then visited Bill Wilson in November 1934.)

Rowland Hazard had another serious drinking bout however in August 1936.

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++++Message 2721. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: 2nd Tradition long short
form
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2005 7:08:00 PM

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Today's short form of Tradition 2 is worded the same as it was first
published in the Grapevine in November 1949 (not 1948).Bill's November
1949 Grapevine article titled "A Suggestion for Thanksgiving"
announced the short form of the Traditions but did not list them. They
were listed as a 2-page centerfold spread. Re "Language of the Heart"
(pgs 95-96) for Bill's article.

Earl T was credited by Bill W as suggesting both the long and short
form of the Traditions and directly participating with Bill in
drafting the short form. Two wording changes were subsequently made to
the November 1949 version: “primary spiritual aim” was changed to
“primary purpose” in Tradition 6, and “principles above
personalities”
was changed to “principles before personalities” in Tradition 12.

The timing of when these changes occurred is a subject of interest in
the AAHL forum (more on this below).

The bits and pieces I've gleaned (which are slim) on the inclusion of
the "Our leaders are but ..." clause in the short form of Tradition 2

does not quite emerge on as noble a plane as you presume. It might
well have been a function of a feud between Bill and the Alcoholic
Foundation Board on what to do in preparation for Dr Bob and Bill
being succeeded (i.e. the Conference, the board ratio, etc.).

An oddity of the historic 1950 international convention in Cleveland
(which approved the Traditions) was that Bill did not read the short
form of the Traditions to the attendees. Prior to voting, Bill was
asked to summarize the Traditions to the attendees. He paraphrased
them in language resembling both the short and long form. Bill
chronicled the 1950 convention in a September 1950 Grapevine article
titled "We Came of Age" (don't confuse this with 1955). Re "Language
of the Heart" (pgs 117-124) for Bill's article.

A previous posting to AAHL noted that the 2nd edition Big Book
(published in 1955) contained a new appendix on the Traditions with
the short form worded as they were first published 6 years prior in
the November 1949 Grapevine.

I'm going to check out a 1st printing 12&12 to see if the short form
of the Traditions is worded the same as they are today. If so, then
today's version was Conference-approved in 1953 as a function of the
Conference approving the 12&12(as opposed to being approved by the
1950 international convention).

On the other hand, if the 12&12 wording is the same, then I'm getting
"more curiouser" as to why the November 1949 version of the short form
of the Traditions was published in the 2nd edition Big Book 2 years
later.

Cheers
Arthur
________________________________________
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jlobdell54
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 8:04 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: 2nd Tradition long short form

The "trusted servant" addition to the Second Tradition comes, of
course, from the long form of the Ninth Tradition. The discussion on
Tradition Twelve in the Grapevine in November 1948 makes it clear that

the "trusted servants" provision was still in the Ninth at that time.

At the time of the revision (the shortening suggested, I believe, by
Earl T. of Chicago, around 1950), the "trusted servants" passage in in

Step Two. For an educated guess, it was made in 1949-50, when it
became evident to Bill W. that it was in fact a spiritual principle
belonging there ("up front"). If someone has a more definite date,
I'll be happy to withdraw my tentative suggestions -- but we know it
was still in the Ninth in November 1948. -- Jared Lobdell

________________________________________
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

• Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

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++++Message 2722. . . . . . . . . . . . Grace Oursler
From: howie1954 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2005 10:58:00 AM

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Hi all,
I'm trying to find a photograph or plate of Grace Oursler (Nee Perkins, I
presume), wife of Fulton Oursler who was the editor of Liberty Magazine in
1939.
Can anyone help
love in the fellowship
Howard, Birmingham UK

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++++Message 2723. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bylaws for A.A. groups
From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2005 11:05:00 AM

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I just encountered a quote from a Grapevine article titled "Rules" that was
published in the September 1945 Grapevine and written by Bill W. This
presumably should be available via the Grapevine Digital Archive that is
online. It states in part: "Were we to proceed by rules, somebody would have
to make them and, more difficult still, somebody would have to enforce
them."

One might consider that the bylaws of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc. itself,
published in the A.A. Service Manual, are only 8 pages in length and three
of these are the steps, traditions, and concepts. Several parts of the
Concepts are like a Bill of Rights of the AA member: decision, appeal, no
unqualified authority, democratic, etc.

While all groups have some procedures, subject to change at their next group
conscience meeting, few dare to call them bylaws or rules. In the same
spirit as the concepts (and in addition to Rule 62) I'd like to suggest one
more rule for a good group. Valerie O., GSO staff member, has stated in
taped talks that her home group's rule is: "Don't bite the other children."

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gallery Photography
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 1:22 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bylaws for A.A. groups

I have a question. I know some are against the very idea but many groups
have a set of "by-laws". Do any of you belong to a group that does and if
so, do you have a copy that I could see. My home group has decided to do
this and I've been asked to find some samples. Hopefully some of you do or
can send me in the right direction to find some examples. Our group needs a
few set things written down for all to follow. Simple things like;
responsibilities of a chairperson, how to handle disturbances, etc... The
organized chaos has gotten too extreme. Thanks.

Rotax Steve
Nangi namaj perez

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2724. . . . . . . . . . . . Larry J.
From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/11/2005 1:51:00 PM

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I found a prayer written by Larry J. to be use at the openings of all AA
meetings in Houston, TX.

Our FATHER, we come to you as a friend
you have said that when two or three are gathered in your name, there you
will be in the midst. We believe you are with us now.
We believe this is something you would have us do, and that it has your
blessing.
We believe that You want us to be real partners with You in this business of
living, accepting our full responsibility, and certain that the rewards will
be freedom, and growth and happiness.
For this, we are grateful
We ask You at all times to guide us
Help us daily to come closer to You and grant us new ways
of living our gratitude. Amen

Diz Titcher
Tallahassee

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++++Message 2725. . . . . . . . . . . . Other reviews of the Big Book
From: David G. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/12/2005 12:06:00 PM

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To Chuck P. and others
Reviews of the Big Book...

Taken from the Book: “Not-God A History of Alcoholics Anonymous” by
Ernest
Kurtz; page 92; Part One: The History

+ The most unsympathetic review was an unsigned one in the Journal of
Nervous and Mental Diseases in September 1940: "As a youth we attended many
'experience' meetings more as an onlooker than as a participant. We never
could
work ourselves up into a lather and burst forth in soupy bubbly phrases
about
our intimate states of feeling. That was our own business rather than
something
to brag about to the neighbors. Neither then nor now do we lean to the
autobiographical, save occasionally by allusion to point a moral or adorn a
tale, as the ancient adage puts it.

"This big, big book, i.e., big in words, is a rambling sort of
camp-meeting confession of experiences, told in the form of biographies of
various alcoholics who had been to a certain institution and have
provisionally
recovered, chiefly under the influence of the 'big brothers of the spirit.'
Of
the inner meaning of alcoholism there is hardly a word. It is all the
surface
material.

"Inasmuch as the alcoholic, speaking generally, lives in a
wishfulfilling infantile regression to the omnipotency delusional state,
perhaps
he is best handled for the time being at least by regressive mass
psychological
methods, in which, as is realized, religious fervors belong, hence the
religious
trend of the- book. Billy Sunday and similar orators had their successes,
but we
think the methods of Forel and Bleuler infinitely superior."

Hardly more favorable, but less impassioned, was the review accorded by the
Journal of the American Medical Association on 14 October 1939:

"This book is a curious combination of organizing propaganda and religious
exhortation. . . . The one valid thing in the book is the recognition of the
seriousness of addiction to alcohol. Other than this, the book has no
scientific
merit or interest."

Taken from the Book: “Not-God A History of Alcoholics Anonymous”; by
Ernest
Kurtz; page 92; Part One: The History

Yours In Service
DG-Illinois
USA

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++++Message 2726. . . . . . . . . . . . Grace Oursler
From: howie1954 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/12/2005 5:01:00 PM

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I sent a request to see if anyone knew if there was a source for a picture
of
Grace O but forgot to mention why, Our archivist said he had exhausted
himself
trying to get one for our archives, regarding the first AA meeting in
London,
but to no avail.
So is there anyone who can help.
Howard, Birmingham UK

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2727. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bylaws for A.A. groups
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2005 12:26:00 AM

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There a bunch of the original Rule 62s at Stepping Stones which NJ
Archives and the Stepping Stones Archives jointly deacidified along
with many of Bill's papers in the early 90's. They were little
booklets that had a thin white sheet over a light blue sheet about 4x3
(I'm guessing). This was folded over to make a little booklet with a
blue cover with a staple on the crease. On the outside it said rule 62
and on the inside was the famous quote Cheryl stated below. There were
actually 2 varieties with 2 fonts and one was slightly larger than the
other. (seems to be some kind of pattern). There was a bundle of 10 -
20 (a guess again) and the rest were stewn all over the filing
cabinents. As we were learning that the deacidification fluid
(methanol base) evaporated quicker than expected
these rule 62's would seem to drop out of every folder including the
LSD file. When we woke up a few days later all the work was done. This
is all true except the last sentence. RULE 62.

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++++Message 2728. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob article in Faith Magazine
From: jeffrey4200 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2005 1:44:00 AM

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Hello,
I'm looking for a copy of the article Dr. Bob wrote for Faith
Magazine in 1939, and may have singed his name to.

Thank you
Jeffrey Nilsen

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++++Message 2729. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bylaws for A.A. groups
From: Debi . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2005 11:44:00 AM

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Steve,

My experience is that lots of groups have "notebooks" for the
chairperson to use that have things like the meeting format,
announcements, what to do with the 7th Tradition, etc. typed or
written up, but I have never heard them called "By-Laws" in this
Area (South East Texas Area -- SETA). BUT ... this is a very big
Area, and Texas is a very big state, so I could be wrong.
HOWEVER ... SETA does have a complete set of "Policies & Procedures"
by which we conduct the business of the Area at the Quarterly
Assemblies. It is kept current by updating the list of "Assembly
Actions" that are voted on each quarter, so we'll always know the
answer to "What was that motion way back when where we decided to do
such-n-such?"

Just seeing the phrase "Bylaws for AA Groups" in print gives me the
heeby jeebies! :) It brings to mind that list of "rules for
membership" that GSO received from groups way back when they were
trying to get the Traditions hammered out. Whew, have you seen that
list? I used to have a copy. I don't know a soul in AA who would
have been able to join or remain in good standing with all those
rules.

Back to the topic... who currently has all of the minutes? How do
y'all know what the meeting format should be like? (Writing this up
is a good place to start.) You can gather up existing items as a
resource to start your *shudder* Bylaws. Go back through the
minutes and find all of the "motions" that passed and make a list of
them, with the date they were passed, and this can be the beginning
list of your "Bylaws." Each group is autonomous, and can do
whatever its group conscience decides, but my experience is that
the "group" whose conscience decided something in 1990 is an
entirely different bunch of folks than the "group" who bothers to
attend the group conscience meetings in 2005. So compiling a list
of past motions can serve as a guide for the future.

Hope these thoughts help... thanks for letting me share. I'm
feeling pretty verbose today, as I'm home alone with the creepy crud.

Debi Ubernosky
Sober by God's grace and AA since 11-25-90

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Gallery Photography"
<gallery5@m...> wrote:
>
> I have a question. I know some are against the very idea but many
groups
> have a set of "by-laws". Do any of you belong to a group that does
and if
> so, do you have a copy that I could see. My home group has decided
to do
> this and I've been asked to find some samples. Hopefully some of
you do or
> can send me in the right direction to find some examples. Our
group needs a
> few set things written down for all to follow. Simple things like;
> responsibilities of a chairperson, how to handle disturbances,
etc... The
> organized chaos has gotten too extreme. Thanks.
>
> Rotax Steve
> Nangi namaj perez
>

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++++Message 2730. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson''s own words about the
history of the AA "six steps"
From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2005 5:31:00 PM

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I have come across a transcript of a speech Bill gave in Texas in
1954, when he related the origin of the steps while he was
developing the first concepts of the Big Book. He titled it: "HOW
THE BOOK WAS PUT TOGETHER". His speech can be seen in an ADOBE PDF
copy of the typed version.(See below). There are 17 pdf pages of
that speech, but the typed pages are 16. On page 10 of the typed
copy is the following: "So then came that night when we were up
around about Chapter 5. As you know, I'd gone on about myself which
was natural after all, and then the little introductory chapter and
we delt with the agnostic and we described alcoholism but, boy, we
finally got up to the point where we really had to say what the book
was all about and how this deal works. As I told you, this was a
six step program then..." Later he said: "And this six step program
had two big gaps in between..." The entire speech can be seen on the
web http://www.archivesinternational.org
Click on the left link "Documents" and then scroll down to "HOW THE
BOOK WAS PUT TOGETHER". This will take you to:
http://www.archivesinternational.org/AI/Documents/pdf/bigbookpt.pdf
He went on to describe how these then
became 12 Steps. For me, it seems that although Bill was certainly
influenced by his former contacts with OG, his own formulation
of "six-steps" was NOT just a copy of OG thinking or program.

Les C.

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++++Message 2731. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: JAMA''S review of the Big
Book
From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2005 1:14:00 AM

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Here is a link to a reprint of the book review.
http://www.morerevealed.com/arc_jama_bb_review.jsp

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++++Message 2732. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill''s 9th step
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2005 9:59:00 PM

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I'm aware of no record regarding Bill's apologizing for these specific
act(s) as he kept no diary. Lois however did tell Bill about an
incident where she came very close with one of the many guests who
Bill brought to his home who basically lived there. She described the
event in her diary and I've seen it mentioned elsewhere. Bill stated
that this disclosure was one of two times Bill stated he wanted a
drink after initial sobriety. The other was when Lois had gone on an
extended cruise with a Crystal family member and Bill became quite
ill. He was prescribed the basic codeine cough formula and thought of
drinking at this time. I hope this helps.
-merton

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "skeptical538" <mgirling@n...>
wrote:
>
> At our meeting today we read from a passage regarding cautions in
> performing a 9th step -especially in hurting wives and loved ones.
> Help me. Is there any record of Bill actually making amends for his
> womanizing to Lois?
>

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++++Message 2733. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: JAMA''S review of the Big
Book
From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2005 1:25:00 AM

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Here is a site with several Big Book Reviews
http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Big%20Book%20Reviews.htm

Charles from California

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++++Message 2734. . . . . . . . . . . . What did the "Works" in the
Publishing Company mean
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/14/2005 9:06:00 PM

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I thought in 1990 that the story of very early AA had been pretty well
summed up in the publications to date. What could I find that hadn't
already been written about, critiqued, analyzed and been conclusively
settled beyond question as to just how this wonderful thing came to
be. Its such a pleasure to see so many people so interested in this
question which seemed like a few people were interested in back then.

The name "Works Publishing Company" always seemed a little off to me.
The stated reasons/conjecture regarding how this name came about that
I recall are 1) It was a reference to a biblical saying often used by
Dr. Bob's wife, "Faith without works are dead" and/or the slogans, "It
Works" or "It Works when you work it". The first just doesn't seem to
resonate (my opinion) with Bill during this time period. Don't ask me
why, its just a feeling. The second pair of slogans seem to have come
about a little later. I just didn't see any reference in GSO or SS
archives this early. I could be mistaken here also. So the following
is a hypothesis and hopefully some people who know about the FDR New
Deal influence can add or refute what I am basing this possible
alternative explanation that follows.

When word searching "17 Wiiliams St.", "17-19 William St." and "the
Calumet Building", all synonyms, two strange posters poped up. Not
that the posters appearances were strange. Rather I saw the references
to these beforementioned addresses on both posters including the
"Calumet" on one. Then it made reference to the Federal Art Gallery
with the same address. Then the tie in to the "Works Progress
Authority" appear which I understand was the phrase used for the
massive improvements and government funded artistic enhancement under
the era defining New Deal legislation. Was the WPC named after the WPA
in the same building in Newark? Hmmmmmm. It also seems the timing was
roughly synonomous with the time of the final stages of the creation
of the book a.1939. Both the Calumet Building design and the poster
are art deco par excellence.

Now this seems like Bill. I can easily see Bill being inspired by
being in the same building with the landscaping energy of the WPA. I
can also envision the air created for those who didn't quite know what
to make by what was going on in office 601 then 604. Perhaps they
assumed Works Publishing Company was a branch of the megapowerful
sculpture creating Works Progress Authority. Maybe it silenced those
who might otherwise judge the seemingly intoxicated individuals that
entered the doors. Don't question the feds even if they are a little
bit tipsy.

This is utter and complete unsubstantiated speculation on my part. It
just seems that the extremely closely named entities in the same
building is possibly more than a coincidence. Bill liked to hook the
infant fellowship to big names like Jung, James and Rockerfeller. The
WPA represented major change and recovery of America after the great
depression. Recovery. Here's what it says on the sites offering
reproductions of these two posters:

"WPA ( Works Progress Administration ) Posters were made during the
WWII Era between 1936 and 1943 as part of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's
New Deal. We are offering reproductions of approximately 800 of these
posters which were orginally silkscreen, lithograph, and woodcuts.
They were designed to publicize health and safety programs; cultural
programs including art exhibitions, theatrical, and musical
performances; travel and tourism; educational programs; and community
activities in seventeen states and the District of Columbia. The
posters were made possible by one of the first U.S. Government
programs to support the arts .

Title: Exhibit - WPA Federal Art Gallery, State of New Jersey Opening
Nov. 15, Calumet B'l'd'g., 17-19 William St., Newark, N.J.

Description: Exhibit - WPA Federal Art Gallery, State of New Jersey
Opening Nov. 15, Calumet B'l'd'g., 17-19 William St., Newark, N.J.
Poster announcing opening of exhibit of WPA art at the Federal Art
Gallery at 17-19 William St., Newark, New Jersey, showing drafting and
painting equipment."

Any comments are appreciated especially by those familiar with the
"feeling" of the WPA at that time.

-merton

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++++Message 2735. . . . . . . . . . . . The Doctor''s Opinion - Again
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/15/2005 9:53:00 AM

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This past May, there was a flurry of discussion here on why "The
Doctor's Opinion" was re-numbered into Roman numerals when the
second edition was published in 1955. One of the comments made in
that thread was:

"Why Bill renumbered the pages in the Big Book in the 2nd edition is
a mystery. Nobody really knows but there is some wonderfully
entertaining speculation on the matter. But it's just that,
speculation."

Here's one more speculation that I hope you might
find "entertaining."

At our weekly Big Book Study Group this morning, we read six
paragraphs from pages xxiv-xxv starting with "The doctor's theory
that we have an allergy…" and ending with "…our synthetic
knowledge."

It seemed clear to me – most especially in that first paragraph –
that AA was making a definite effort to distance itself from any
PARTICULAR medical or scientific theory regarding alcoholism.
It "interest us" but what is REALLY important to us is that we
must "work out our solution on the spiritual as well as an
altruistic plane."

In short, it seems to me that the writer is saying that this is ONE
scientific/medical explanation of what happens to alcoholics but we
don't want you to think that the success or the failure of our
solution is dependent upon any particular scientific or medical
theory. It "interests us" but it's not really critical to recovery -
whihc is dependent on spirituality.

IF this reading accurately reflect the intention of the writer, then
perhaps the decision to change "The Doctor's Opinion" from Arabic to
Roman numerals was done in an effort to even further distance
AA's "solution" from any particular scientific/medical explanation.

Old Bill

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++++Message 2736. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A.A., as such, ought never be
organized - help
From: Gallery Photography . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2005 10:20:00 PM

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I had posted this in another Yahoo group I belong to but I thought I should
share it with all the groups where I had posted my cry for help. So my
apologies if you've already seen this.

I wanted to thank everyone who has posted or contacted me privately. I'm
still in search of a sample of a groups "official" guidelines (bylaws). A
couple of trusted servants in some Yahoo groups I belong to are trying to
get a hold of a copy for me. Anyone else having any input would still be
very appreciated.

Our group inventory has been postponed due to a tragic event. Three of our
members were going to an Area Assembly and had a tire blow on the freeway
and rolled. One member is our alternant GSR and he had 2 broken ribs and a
punctured lung. He's doing well. Another is also a home group member, plus
our DCM. He had major road rash, a broken wrist, a major cut on his head (76
staples) and a fractured C5 vertebrae. He had an operation to relieve the
pressure he had on his spinal cord which was causing his left side to go
numb. He's doing well but has a lot of healing to do. The third member was
our GSR and he suffered severe head trauma and a ruptured bowel. He was in a
coma and stable for a while but he died a couple of days a go.

It's been a rough time for the group.

On top of all that, we found out that our treasure (18 years dry) made off
with about $600 and left us with about 5 months worth of unpaid bills.

Off we grow! (or at least do our best to...)

Rotax Steve
Nangi namaj perez

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++++Message 2737. . . . . . . . . . . . Quaker influence on AA
From: George Cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2005 10:10:00 PM

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Somewhere I could have sworn that I read that Bill and/or Bob had
contact with Quakers.

It occurred to me today during an AA Committee Meeting how much the AA
business process is like the Quaker business process. Plus there are
parts in the BB that sound very much like Quaker founder George Fox.
Specifically, that of God within us, not just God of the stars and
heavens.

Standing by.

George Cleveland

____________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana):

As you point out, the spirit of AA meetings and the nature of AA
spirituality
seems obviously to have a lot of similarities to Quaker belief and practice.
I
wondered about this myself until I got an email from Derek Cameron a month
or so
ago, that explained where some of this Quaker influence was coming from. I
owe
great thanks to him for sharing this information with me.

The connection was between the Quaker movement and the OXFORD GROUP. "Derek
Cameron" <derekacameron@yahoo.com> wrote me an email a month or so ago where
he
said:

'The connection I believe is through F. B. Meyer. Meyer was a Baptist, but
had
been raised by a Quaker grandmother, and wrote a book titled "The Secret of
Guidance." Not only was Meyer was a leading light of the Keswick
conventions,
Frank Buchman met him in person in England, and Meyer explained to him the
value
of a morning "quiet time" or "morning watch." Buchman was also influenced by
Henry Burt Wright (1877-1923) and his 1909 book "The Will of God and a Man's
Lifework," though this was itself influenced by F. B. Meyer.'

So the Quaker influence was probably principally mediated to early AA
through
the Oxford Group. The Oxford Group concept of individual guidance (morning
quiet time) and group guidance (which influences the spirit of AA committee
meetings) seems to have owed a lot to this Quaker influence. And the Quaker
concept of the Inner Light (which gives us guidance and tells us what to say
and
do) was then passed via the Oxford Group to early AA, where it became the
concept of "God within us" as you put it.

In early AA (as we see in Richmond Walker's "Twenty Four Hours a Day") the
Quaker concept of the Inner Light is spoken of as "the spark of the divine"
within the human soul.

This links the AA version of the idea to another ancient concept as well,
the
medieval Catholic theological concept of the scintilla conscientiae or
"spark of
conscience." This was the doctrine that all human beings have at least a
tiny
spark within their souls of a "natural conscience," a natural and inborn
ability
to tell the difference between fundamental right and wrong at what is at
least a
primitive level.

This is what I have found out at this point in my own researches, that is,
that
the Quaker connection is via the Oxford Group. But does anyone in the
AAHistoryLovers know if there were any early AA members or people who were
connected with Bill W. and Dr. Bob who were Quakers, who could have passed
on
some of these ideas directly to early AA?

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++++Message 2738. . . . . . . . . . . . "This Matter of Fear" and Jung
From: lessspamplease . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2005 10:03:00 AM

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In his essay "This Matter of Fear" which appears in "The Best of Bill"
Bill W. paraphrases Jung as follows

"Any person who has reached forty years of age, and who still has no
means of comprehending who he is, ......"

Does anyone know the source of this idea in Jung's writings. Any
information would be greatly appreciated.

Eric

________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn Chesnut, South Bend, Indiana)

Eric,

I wonder if Bill W. modified something Jung had said to make a very
different
kind of point?

A statement similar to this occurs (I believe although I am not sure) in C.
G.
Jung's autobiography, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections," ed. Aniela Jaffe',
trans.
Richard and Clara Winston (New York: Vintage Books/Random House, 1965). I
cannot give you the page reference, and am trying to do this from memory, so
I
may have it wrong. But my memory is that Jung stated that people had to come
to
terms with the fact that they were going to die someday, by the time they
reached mid life, or they would go insane worrying about their own future
death.

And he followed this by an analysis of the way different religious systems
around the world used symbols and archetypes to speak of a life to come in
another world, and insisted that these ideas had to be taken seriously, as a
contact of the human mind with a deeper reality which could be expressed
only in
metaphors and symbols.

I will be glad to stand corrected if I have this wrong, or if someone can
find a
passage from one of Jung's works in which he says something more closely
similar
to Bill W.'s comment.

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++++Message 2739. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Stories in the original
manuscript version
From: joanneinkansas . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2005 11:40:00 AM

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Would someone please share with me what were the stories in the
Original Manuscript of the Big Book? I've seen some OM's with no
stories, some with The Doctor's Nightmare and Ace Full-Seven-Eleven,
and some with many stories.

It was my understanding that Dr. Bob's story was not in the Original
Manuscript, but there seems to be some confusion around this area on
just what stories were included.

Thanks so much.

Jo Anne Dickson

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++++Message 2740. . . . . . . . . . . . God as we understood Him
From: Cloydg . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2005 5:45:00 PM

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We all know AA was designed around First Century Christianity, that's well
documented.

What I want to know is, was there any discord in those original groups
because
Bill wanted it as: "God as we understand God." Seems to me there must have
been
havoc around a lot of Christian members when Bill came up with that one.

Thankfully, I could never have gotten sober in AA if I had had to be a
Christian. Besides, what would have happened to all those who had other
beliefs?

In love and sobriety, Clyde G. in Central California

____________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

Could someone give us a brief review of the controversy over the "God as we
understood Him" phrase in Steps 3 and 11: the member who was an atheist vs.
the
member who wanted the Big Book to be strongly Christian, and then the
attempt to
work out a compromise position while the Big Book was being drafted.

I have argued myself in other contexts however that real atheists
represented
only a tiny minority in early AA, and that we will miss the really central
controversies in early AA if we focus only on that issue. The two biggest
issues
were:

(1) One of the regular tensions which appeared within early AA was that
between
members who wished to stress the spiritual aspects of the program almost
exclusively, and members who wished to stress the psychological aspects of
the
program almost exclusively. Sgt. Bill S. is the best spokesman for that
latter
group within early AA, but there were many other people (including probably
his
mentor the influential Mrs. Marty Mann) who held that kind of position. They
were not atheists at all, but simply believed that AA was fundamentally a
psychologically effective program for treating alcoholics, and that too much
God
talk would drive alcoholics away and would not help all that much in
bringing
them into real recovery.

Sgt. Bill S. was typical of these early psychologically oriented AA's, in
that
he would state firmly that anyone who came into AA spouting angry atheistic
attacks on God had PSYCHOLOGICAL problems, and that it was necessary to deal
with the real psychological issues which were being camouflaged by the
anti-God
language, before the person could find peace and happiness. Angry atheism
was
not psychologically healthy, so the psychologically oriented wing of early
AA
did not give any aid or comfort to angry atheists.

Ken Merrill, the founder of AA in South Bend, Indiana, belonged to that
psychologically oriented wing of early AA, and wrote a few pieces explaining
AA
from that point of view. (It should be said that Hoosiers, who are fairly
conservative people, came from all over northern Indiana to hear his
beginners
lessons on the steps, so there was nothing in this kind of approach which
would
offend Christians or put them off.)

(2) From the viewpoint of a Christian theologian, the most distinctive thing
about most early AA literature is that most of it is not Christian. In any
spiritual system that can be classed as Christianity, there will be numerous
references to the figure of Jesus of Nazareth, who will always play some
kind of
central role in that group's belief system.

Dr. Bob, Anne Smith, and early Akron AA used strongly Christian language in
their meetings in the very, very early years (1935, 1936, and maybe 1937).
We
can still see some of this in Akron-oriented AA even during the early
1940's, as
in the group which early Akron AA member James D. "J.D." Holmes founded in
Evansville, Indiana, during its earliest period.

But the name of Jesus Christ occurs only once in the first 164 pages of the
Big
Book, which came out in 1939, and that one time the name of Christ appears
only
in a very skeptical context (page 11).

The three sections of the New Testament which they wanted AA newcomers to
read
(Sermon on the Mount, James, and 1 Corinthians 13) contained no passages
referring to the divinity of Christ or any necessity of obtaining salvation
by
calling upon Christ's name. It took a lot of work to find substantial
portions
of the New Testament which did NOT require belief in Christ, but the early
AA
people managed to find these three sections.

The epistle of James in particular represented the beliefs of the early
Christian community in Jerusalem after Jesus' death, where Jesus' younger
brother James was the first "bishop" or head of the church there. This was
early Jewish Christianity, where the members (all from Jewish backgrounds)
regarded Jesus not as divine, but as a figure more like the Teacher of
Righteousness in the Dead Sea Scrolls, that is, as a Jewish teacher and
rabbi
who was a very wise man and gave the correct interpretation of Torah (as
opposed
to the Pharisaic ultra fundamentalist Jewish sects and the Jerusalem
priesthood). Like modern American Reform Judaism, they regarded many of the
detailed rules in the Torah as outmoded and irrelevant to the modern world,
and
focused instead on the central moral teachings of the Ten Commandments, the
Two
Great Commandments, and other similar portions of the Torah and the
Prophets.
Feed the hungry, visit and take care of people who are ill, provide clothes
for
people who are freezing to death in the winter, defend those segments of
society
which are the victims of discrimination at the hands of the wealthy and the
powerful.

In 1948, most AA members switched from using the totally Christian
meditational
work called "The Upper Room" (published by the Southern Methodists in
Nashville,
Tennessee) and began using Richmond Walker's newly written "Twenty-Four
Hours a
Day." Rich took the totally Christ-centered meditations in the Oxford Group
book "God Calling by Two Listeners" and turned all the references to Christ
into
references to God. One contacted God the Father directly, rather than
through
Jesus Christ as a necessary intermediary.

Likewise, there are little or no references to Jesus Christ in The Little
Red
Book (1946, written by Minneapolis AA member Ed Webster with Dr. Bob's
comments
and advice and approval) and the Detroit/Washington D.C. pamphlet. Prayers
are
addressed directly to God the Father, and no references are made to any
necessity for calling on Jesus Christ's atoning work in order to obtain
forgiveness.

Even in the case of Father Ralph Pfau (the "Father John Doe" who authored
the
Golden Books beginning in 1947) we see more references to Christianity than
in
any other early AA literature, but he too refers to praying to God the
Father
directly and making our amends with God the Father directly, and not by
calling
on the atoning blood of Christ or any other strongly Christian doctrine.

So we have the interesting phenomenon that most AA members in the United
States
come from Christian backgrounds and even today adopt a good many traditional
Christian beliefs in their own private prayers -- and no one is discouraged
from
being a practicing Christian -- but all the AA literature urges on members
is
belief in a higher power or Architect of the Universe and a strong
commitment to
acting morally at all times in our dealings with other people. It is what is
called an "ethical monotheism," heavily influenced by the spirit of the
Eighteenth Century Enlightenment and the 17th-18th century Deist movement.

I am simply trying to give a historical account of what happened in early
AA,
not passing any value judgments on it one way or the other. There are AA
people
even today (like Dick B. in Hawaii) who believe that the progressive
de-Christianization of AA during the early years was a catastrophe that has
done
great harm to the effectiveness of the program. But historically speaking,
we
must acknowledge that this happened -- 1946 to 1948 was the great watershed
on
this issue -- and that the process started happening even earlier, with some
of
the effects already showing up in the Big Book in 1939.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2741. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What happened to Rowland Hazard?
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2005 7:25:00 PM

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Hi Tracy,
Here'w more than you wanted to know about Rowland.
Mel Barger, Toledo, Ohio
Home/Start Sitemap

THE FORERUNNER - ROWLAND
By: RON RAY yarnor@msn.com
140 Dove Trail
Bowling Green, KY 42101

click here Print Your Own Copy
Adobe Acrobat PDF (opens in Browser)
Adobe Acrobat PDF Copy
Right Click and use "Save As" to
save copy to your hard drive for later use

THE FORERUNNER - ROWLAND
By: RON RAY yarnor@msn.com 140 Dove Trail
Bowling Green, KY 42101

After telling Rowland Hazard that he could never regain his role in
society,
Dr. Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961) the renown Swiss psychiatrist was
asked, "Is
there no exceptions?" "Yes," replied Dr. Jung, "...once in a while
alcoholics
have had what are called vital spiritual experiences." He went on to
describe
a spiritual experience as "... huge emotional displacements and
rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once guiding
forces
... are suddenly cast to one side and completely new set of
conceptions and
motives begin to dominate them." (pg. 26/27 Alcoholics Anonymous)

The doctor admitted his failure in bringing about this psychic change
in
Rowland. He went on to dash Rowland's hope that strong religious
convictions
could alone bring about a "vital spiritual experience."
Rowland's father Rowland Gibson Hazard, (The Hazard family tree had an
unbroken chain of Rowland's dating back to 1763. Every alternate
generation
bore the middle name of Gibson) had been superintendent of the
Congregational
Sabbath School for twenty-five years. The comments in the "Big Book"
coupled
with the religious upbringing in his father's home leads us to
conclude that
he had more than a passive belief in God. His mother's father, a Yale
graduate, was a man of the cloth. At the time of his death, (December
20,
1945) Rowland was a vestryman in Calvary Episcopal Church, New York
City and
a member of ST. Peter's-by-the-sea, Narragansett, R.I. AA students
will
identify Calvary Episcopal with the Rev. Sam Shoemaker and the Oxford
Group
which served as the spiritual support group for Bill Wilson and other
early
sober alcoholics. According to Louis Wilson, Rowland was an ardent
Oxford
Grouper until his death. NOTE: The Oxford Group changed its name in
1938 to
Moral Re-Armament (MRA). No mention is found in any of three lengthy
obituaries about Rowland's affiliation with either the Oxford Group or
MRA.
The Rev. Sam Shoemaker one of the founders of the Oxford Group in the
U. S.
broke with the movement in 1941. During the late thirties and early
forties
many Groupers distanced themselves from the misunderstood views of
Frank
Buchman, the principle leader of the Movement. While they may have
fled the
Movement it is difficult to believe they abandoned its teaching of the
Four
Absolutes: Love, Honesty, Purity and Unselfishness, nor the Group's
practice
of self-evaluation, confession, restitution, guidance from God and
working
with others. The Oxford Group's teachings and practices were not
distant from
AA's Twelve Steps. A note of interest: In the Cleveland/Akron AA the
Four
Absolutes are still emphasized.

Hazard family of Rhode Island was a paragon of respectability and
moral
values. Their leadership in education, government and industry bore
witness
to their values. Roots in Rhode Island reached back 350 years as early
settlers of the colony. Rowland was the tenth generation of Hazards in
Rhode
Island. His forebears were large landowners, manufacturers, men and
women of
learning in literature and science. They left their imprint on a
growing
America as achievers, leaders and philanthropist. It was into this
regal
family style that Rowland was born October 29, 1881. (Two years after
Dr. Bob
Smith and fourteen years before Bill Wilson.)

Rowland grew up in wealth, respectability and in a family that for its
day
placed great value on human relations. His grandfather was known as
the
"Father of the American Alkali Industry." Unlike the robber barons of
his
day, Grandfather Rowland had unusual respect for the dignity of his
employees. At the family woolen mills in Rhode Island he introduced
one of
the first profit sharing programs in America. After the purchase of a
lead
mine in Missouri in 1874 he found the miners living in "ignorance,
wretchedness, squalor and drunkenness." He shortened the workweek,
built
decent housing and started a school. Writing he said, "Place a people
face-to-face with vast labors, lower their physical tone by an
enervating
climate, let them find experience that the labors are too great for
their
powers: slipshod habits result with whiskey as a relief from trouble."
In
1875 his fellow industrialists must have considered this enlightened
statement liberal and radical.

Grandmother Margaret is credited with introducing one of the first
kindergartens to America. Aunt Caroline was President of Wellesley
College at
the turn of the century. Father Rowland Gipson was President of Peace
Dale
Manufacturing, Peace Dale, R.I. and Vice-President of Solvay Process,
Syracuse, N.Y.

Peace Dale, Rhode Island was the Hazard family seat. It could well be
called
their town from the mill that provides jobs to the cluster of Hazard
estates.
There was Oakwood built in 1854 by grandfather Rowland; Holly House
where
young Rowland lived from age eleven; Aunt Helen's home where Pulitzer
Prize
(1941) winning poet Leonard Bacon grew to adulthood; and the Scallop
Shell,
home of Aunt Caroline upon her return from Wellesley.

The "well to do" customarily sent their young men to prep school for
education directed toward college and for training in moral
disciplines and
social skills. Young Rowland attended Fay School in Southborough,
Mass., and
Taft School in Watertown, Conn. On to Yale in 1899, Rowland received a
Bachelor-of-Arts degree with the class of 1903. At Yale he was called
"Ike,"
"Roy" and "Rowley." He sang in the freshman and Varsity Glee Clubs as
well as
the chapel choir. Rowland's choice of Yale was a break from his father
and
grandfather's tradition of Brown University. On his mother's side of
the
family there was a long line of Yale attendees including Eli Whitney
of --
cotton gin fame.

The years following Yale were spent learning the family business. Pace
Dale
Manufacturing Company was the base industry from which the family's
business
empire sprang. The wool mill at Peace Dale was in family ownership
from 1802
to 1918. During the Civil War it was a major producer of army
blankets. By
the time Rowland entered the milling business it was in its waning
years in
the North. Rowland started out in the wool sorting Department. Upon
the death
of Rowland's father the milling Business was sold to the Stevens
Company who
moved it to North Carolina.

The Hazard's had many investments and businesses far more exciting
than the
wool milling business. One such business was Semet- Solvay, the
nations
leading producer of coke and coke ovens. Its sister company Solvay
Process
Company produced soda ash, caustic soda, calcium chloride, ammonia and
soda
bicarbonate. The latter product was sold exclusively to Church and
Dwight of
"Arm and Hammer" brand fame. As part of Rowland's "on-the-job"
training, he
work for Semet-Solvay in Chicago. In 1906 he was transferred to
Syracuse.
The 3rd Annual Yale Class of 1903 Reunion Book made special note that
Rowland
had an appendectomy in 1906 and spent the summer recuperating at Peace
Dale.
Hardly news worthy today, but in 1906 any abdominal surgery was a
major
medical procedure.
Following his recuperation he joined Peace Dale Manufacturing as
Secretary-Treasure. Working up the business ladder as son-of-the-owner
is
much more rapid than as the normal aspiring employee. Not intending to
distract from Rowland's effort and ability as a business manger, he
did have
doors of opportunity open more quickly because he was a Hazard of
Rhode
Island. Life in the business world could adjust to accommodate his
desired
life style. Dr. Jung in one of his writings refers to a wealthy
American
businessman he treated for alcoholism. While not mentioning the man by
name,
Dr. Jung wrote that the management success in business was due to a
powerful
protective mother who shielded him from being judged by his
performance.
(It's this writer's view that Dr. Jung was writing about Rowland.)

The winter of 1909-10 was spent traveling in the Western states. Upon
return
he married Helen Hamilton Campbell the daughter of a Chicago banker
and a
graduate of Briar Cliff. They spent the next several months traveling
abroad.

The Hazards were involved in local, state and national politics. Being
involved in politics came with being a Hazard. Rowland became active
in the
Republican Party. As a delegate, he attended the 1912 Republican
National
Convention which re-nominated President William H. Taft to the slate.
>From
1914 to 1916 he served in the Rhode Island State Senate. As World War
I got
started he became a civilian member of the U. S. Ordnance Department.
Later
Rowland resigned to accept a commission as Captain in the Army's
Chemical
Warfare Service.

Helen and Rowland had for children:
Caroline (1913), Rowland Gibson (1917), Peter (1918) and Charles W. B.
(1920).
(All are now dead, with Charles passing away February 27, 1995.)

When Rowland's father died in 1918 neither he nor his younger brother
Thomas
wanted to manage the day-to-day operation of the several companies
that the
Hazard family controlled. Peace Dale Manufacturing was sold July 1,
1918 to
the Stevens Company. Semet-Solvay Company and the Solvay Process
Company
joined with three other chemical companies December 17, 1920 to create
Allied
Chemical and Dye Corporation (now Allied Signal, multi-billion
corporation).
Rowland served on Allied's board of directors from its inception until
his
death. He also served many years on the board of Interlake Iron
Corporation
(now Acme Metals Inc.) Any problem Rowland had with alcohol did not
lead to
dismissal from either board. However, with the Hazard family so deeply
invested in the companies the antics of the drinker can be explained
away and
covered up. Yes. There is corporate denial.

The socially prominent New England families of the 1920's and 30's
were mum
about family problems. Especially were they guarded about moral
weakness in
their ranks. In that day many considered alcoholics to be morally weak
people. The exact onset of Rowland's problem with alcohol is difficult
to
fix. Some events would lead this writer to believe it could have been
as
early as World War I. When his father died in 1918 why didn't he take
over
the operating helm? Rowland was 37 and had held several positions
within the
corporations. Younger brother Thomas was 26 and only three years out
of
college, yet Thomas not Rowland became the one to administer the
Hazard
estate.

There is a brief mention of Rowland being president of Solvay
Securities
(likely a family holding) from 1918-21. This was probably a token
position.
His obituary reports that 1920-27 he was a member of Lee Higginson &
Company,
a New York investment banker. The public accounting of 1927 lists that
Rowland resigned Lee Higginson to travel in Africa. This adventure was
generally reserved for the rich and the royal of that day,
We know from Bill's letter of January 23, 1961, to Dr. Jung that
Rowland was
under Dr. Jung's care in Zurich, Switzerland in 1931. On page 26 of
the Big
Book we find more insight into Rowland's battle with alcohol: "For
years he
had floundered from one sanitarium to another. He had consulted the
best
known American psychiatrists." This short statement leads us to
believe that
several years prior to 1931 Rowland and his family sought solutions to
his
problem with alcohol. Ebby Thatcher who carried the message to Bill
had this
to say about Rowland: "I was very much impressed by his drinking
career,
which consisted of prolonged sprees where he traveled all over the
country."
The 1927-35 period is vague and sketchy. In published accounts of
Rowland's
life (Yale Class Reunion Books and obituaries) one is left with the
feeling
he and the family went to great effort to explain his absence from the
business world.

According to published accounts, the eight-year period was a mixture
of
health problems and private ventures away from Peace Dale and New York
City.
While in Africa the reports say he contracted a tropical disease, and
in 1928
he traveled to the Pacific Coast for his health. In 1929 he bought a
ranch in
New Mexico. Upon discovery of high-grade clay on the ranch, he
organized in
1931-32 the La Luz Clay Products Company to produce floor and roof
tile. In
1932 he took up residence in Vermont. Between 1932 and 1936 he divided
much
of his time between Vermont and New Mexico. There is never any mention
of
Rowland's travel to Zurich in 1931 nor the "about one year" spent in
Dr.
Jung's care. (Mentioned in Bill's January 23, 1961 letter to Dr.
Jung.) In
the letter to Dr. Jung, Bill writes, "Mr. Hazard joined the Oxford
Groups, an
evangelical movement then at the height of its success in Europe...
Returning
to New York he became very active with "O.G." here, then led by an
Episcopal
Clergyman, Dr. Samuel Shoemaker."

August 1934 Rowland was at his home in Shaftsbury, Vt., 15 miles south
of
Manchester. It was during this stay in Shaftsbury that he learned
through two
Groupers of Ebby Thatcher's possible six-month sentence to Windsor
Prison for
repeated drunkenness. The Groupers were Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves.
Cebra's father was Judge Graves before whom Ebby was to appear in
Bennington,
Vt. Rowland and Cebra intervened at the hearing and asked to have Ebby
be
bound over to Rowland who would take him to New York. Judge Graves
agreed and
Rowland took Ebby to his home in Shaftsbury. Later Ebby was taken to
New York
City where he stayed with Shep Cornell. Of the first meeting with
Rowland,
Ebby said, "...he was a good guy. The first day he came to see me he
helped
me clean up the place."

Ebby's carrying the message to Bill is well known, but little is known
about
Rowland's personal sharing with Bill. Robert Thomsen in his book Bill
W.
writes that Bill could never recollect if it was Ebby or Rowland who
gave him
William James', The Varieties of Religious Experience. A likely
scenario is
that Rowland gave the book to Ebby who in turn passed it on to Bill.
Thomsen
also reveals that Grace McC., Rowland, Ebby and others would join with
Bill,
after the "O.G." meetings, around a little table in the rear of
Stewarts
Cafeteria (New York City) for coffee and sharing.

The absence of mention by Bill, Lois, Ebby or other early AA members
about
Rowland joining the fellowship, leads us to conclude he never joined
AA. Lois
wrote in Lois Remembers: "...he remained an ardent Oxford Grouper
until his
death in 194 5." Lois goes on to mention that Cebra later joined AA
in
Paris.

From Rowland's perspective there was no compelling reason to join AA.
After
all he was sober eight years by the time the Big Book was published.
His
sobriety is evidenced (pg. 26, Big Book), "But this man still lives
and is a
free man... He can go anywhere on earth where other free men may go
without
disaster, provided he remains willing to maintain a certain attitude."

THE FORERUNNER - ROWLAND (Part II)
By: RON RAY yarnor@msn.com
140 Dove Trail
Bowling Green, KY 42101

Rowland returned to Wall Street as general partner in Tailer &
Robinson a brokerage firm. That was in 1935. The years 1938-39 saw him
associated with Lockwood Greene Engineers Inc.. In 1940-41 he reports that
he was an independent consultant. This later job position is often a resume
explanation for periods of unemployment. In 1941 Rowland became Executive
Vice-President, Bristol Manufacturing of Waterbury, Conn. Bristol (now
Bristol Babcock of Watertown, Conn.) is a leading manufacturer of industrial
measuring and recording devices.

While at his office desk on Thursday, December 20,1945,Rowland
suddenly died of a coronary occlusion. At the time of his death he and his
wife Helen resided on Park Avenue in New York City, but also held a legal
residence in Peace Dale, R.I.

Much sadness filled his last years. Rowland Gibson his oldest son, a
Captain in the army was killed in 1941. Peter his second son, a Naval pilot,
deliberately flew his plane into a screen of American flax while pursuing a
Japanese kamikaze plane. Peter was first reported missing in action March
1945, but this was later confirmed as killed in action. (Helen died October
17, 1946 from pneumonia which develop after she was over come by carbon
monoxide fumes in her garage.)

Of all the contributions Rowland and his famous family made in
industry and through philanthropic activities, none has had a more far
reaching impact as Rowland's unselfish effort in sobering up Ebby. If not
the first 12th Step call, certainly one that gave birth to a chain of events
that have impacted the lives of millions of men and women.

MORE NOTES ON ROWLAND HAZARD

May 7,1995, I finally made telephone contact with the home of Charles
W.P. Hazard Spoke with Edith the wife of Charles. She told me that Charles
had died February 27, 1995

She claimed to know very little about Rowland except that Charles
found it difficult to talk about his father. This could be in part to
Rowland's long absences from the family. She said as far as they, the
family, knew - Rowland never took another drink after getting sober.

Having read this paper on Rowland, Edith wrote me on May 12,1995:
"Your paper shows evidence of much hard work, however, I do not feel capable
or authorized to validate or add to its content."

The traditional link of "Rowland/Rowland G./Rowland" that had been the
chain of father-to-son passing the name down was broken when Rowland's
oldest son was killed while serving in the Army in 1944. Charles did name a
son Rowland.

October 17,1946, Helen the wife of Rowland died from pneumonia which
developed after she was over come by carbon monoxide fumes in her garage.
Her personal estate was valued at $80,000. This should not be read as her
total net worth. No doubt much of the family wealth was concealed in a trust
to protect it from taxes and drain. The rich of New England had a saying,
"Never touch the principle."

It was reported to me that Helen and Rowland were divorced for short
period circa 1929/31. I have no hard evidence to this claim, but it would
fit in to the chain of events around Rowland seeking help from Dr Jung.

Peter the second eldest son was awarded the DFC posthumously for
action in the battle of Okinawa. His story is reported in the book, LITTLE
GIANTS by W. T. T. Blood Naval Institute Press. The book is about the "baby
flat-tops" of WWII.

One of Rowland's more famous kin was Oliver Hazard Perry of the "War
of 1812" fame. The Eastern Kentucky town of Hazard in Perry County was named
in honor of the Naval Hero.

Revisited and re-edited April 24, 2001 by Ron Ray

addendum by LDP host of AA Bibliography Website:
I too am kin to Oliver Hazard Perry via my grandfather's family
tree-Faus Surname.

SOURCES

Bill Wilson et al Alcoholics Anonymous "Big Book"

New York: AA World Service Inc.
1939-1976)

Lois Wilson Lois Remembers (New York: Al-Anon
Family Headquarters Inc, 1979)

Robert Thomsen Bill W.

(New York: Harper & Row Publishers
1975)

Ernest Kurtz Not God

(Center City, MN: Hazelden 1979)

World Service Pass It On

(New York: AA World Service Inc.
1984)

Bill Wilson et al Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age

(New York: AA World Service Inc.
1957

Edward Hennessy jr Allied Corporation-Strength Through

Diversification

(New York: The Newcomen Society of
The

United States 1984)

Acme Metals a) Interlake Steel Corp Prior to
Acme Steel Merger

(b) A Brief History of Interlake Inc.

(Riverdale, IL: Acme Metals Archives)

Staff New York Times December 22,1945

(New York: New York Times 1945

Staff New York Times April 26,1945

(New York: New York Times 1945

Staff Providence Evening Bulletin
December21,1945

(Providence, RI: Bulletin 1945)

J R. Cole History of Washington and Kent
Counties, Rhode Island

(Pace Dale, RI: Pace Dale
Library)

Williams Haynes Chemical Industries Sept. 1940
"Father
of The American Alkali Industry"

(Solvay NY: Solvay Public Library)

.

Staff Representative Men and old
Families of Rhode Island

(Chicago: J. H. Beers & Co,
1908)

Frank E. Richards Solvay, Onondaga County, New
York

(Solvay, NY: Frank Richards 1959)

Yale University (a) Yale Class Book 1903

(b) Class 1903 Reunion Triennial

(c) Class 1903 Reunion Sexennial

(d) Class 1903 Reunion Decennial

(e) Class 1903 Reunion
Quindecennial '
(g) Class 1903 Thirty-five Year Record

(h) Yale University Obituary
Record 1945-1946

(New Haven, CT: Yale University) Library

~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~

Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com

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++++Message 2742. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bylaws for A.A. groups
From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2005 4:40:00 PM

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Hi All
Could someone send me the link for the A.A. Pamphlet. My homegroup is
looking for info on why we cannot ask our treasurer how much our group
donates
to
the pie chart?

Our treasure say's she just has to say the group donates quarterly and that
is all the info we need. Even our area chair say's the same thing.

Has anyone else had this problem?............Talk about keeping it simple,
what is so difficult, about reporting to members where there money is going?
Other than rent & coffee and literiture.

As we have a large group over 50 members with a "balance of $100.00 to play
with"... and $100.00 prudent reserve...... I think there is more money going
out than just for coffee. (Something does not add up)

Does not the 7th Tradition state we need to be fully self-supporting? Lots
of group members are leaving cuz there is too many hush! hush! around
money.......and the fir goes flying.......very harmful for the new comer.

LOL Lynne

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2743. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Grace Oursler
From: aalogsdon@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2005 7:11:00 PM

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I obtained a great drawing of Grace Oursler from the archives in York. If
you cannot get one contact me and I will send you a copy.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2744. . . . . . . . . . . . Old messages
From: Phillip Waters . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2005 5:45:00 AM

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I recently had my HDD crash and I lost everything. I had archived all the
messages from the list in Outlook and now they are gone. I can't get them
from Yahoo unless I forward them one at a time which is impractical. Is
there someone who would be willing to send me a PST file of the old
messages? I would be greatly appreciative.


Thanks!

Phillip

___________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

Please send directly to Phillip at his email address at <muddy@bham.rr.com>

It's difficult and complicated forwarding messages through the Yahoo group
system that the AAHistoryLovers uses.

Thanks!

Glenn C.

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++++Message 2745. . . . . . . . . . . . Multiple Postings on Lawsuits and
Other Controversial Matters
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2005 11:04:00 PM

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Some weeks ago Charlie B posted a message to AA History Lovers seeking
a variety of information concerning the subjects of:

Congressional incorporation of AA
Copyrights
The Germany lawsuit
Logos and trademarks and
The Mexico lawsuit.

I've coordinated in advance with the AAHL moderator to arrange for a
series of postings to be sent in on each of the subject items.

The material is broken up into multiple submissions because there is a
limitation on the size of individual messages archived in the AA
History Lovers data base on the Yahoo servers.

The posting will be extracts from the final reports of the General
Service Conferences and be in the order of the subject items above.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2746. . . . . . . . . . . . Congressional Incorporation of AA -
part 3 of 3
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2005 11:05:00 PM

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The information below is from the 3rd General Service Conference
(Panel 3).

By advisory action, the matter of Congressional Incorporation was
rejected by the Conference.

Cheers
Arthur

Extract from the final report of the 1953 General Service Conference -
pgs 27 and 32
-------------------------------------
"CONGRESSIONAL INCORPORATION" and "PROPOSED CHANGE IN FOUNDATION NAME"

At the 1952 Conference a motion was made and seconded that, subject to
consideration of the Trustees, steps be taken to incorporate the
Society by an Act of Congress. There was extended an impressive
discussion of both sides of the question, following which the motion
was tabled. A subsequent motion requested the Trustees to appoint a
Special Committee to study the problem and submit recommendations at
the 1953 Conference.

The Committee chairman reported that his group had studied, as
carefully as it was able to, the divergent views expressed a year ago.
He recalled that the issue first came under consideration by the
Trustees eight or nine years ago, when A.A. was growing at a rapidly
accelerating rate, and when a number of A.A. groups and corporations
were being formed, some by persons who appeared to be using the name
for selfish purposes. After a number of suggestions had been made for
protecting the A.A. name, it was finally thought that if incorporation
in any form were desired for protective purposes, the sound approach
would be through an Act of Congress. Apparently the deterring factor
to such action before this time has been the question whether A.A., as
a spiritual faith and a way of life, really belongs in the field of
incorporation.

Based on nine specific conclusions concurred in by all members of the
Special Committee, the Committee recommended that Alcoholics Anonymous
does not incorporate.

(Resolution supporting this recommendation adopted unanimously. Text
of Committee conclusions and recommendation appears in "Advisory
Actions" section).

That the "collective conscience of A.A." is more than a mystic phrase
was well demonstrated when the Conference was asked to consider a
proposal, previously reviewed by the Board of Trustees, to change the
name of The Alcoholic Foundation to "Alcoholics Anonymous
International, Inc."

After more than 30 of the Delegates had commented on the proposal, it
became clear that, while the Conference as a whole was not opposed to
a change, it sought a full measure of assurance and conviction that
the name ultimately chosen would be "the right one. "

From these comments, it became equally apparent that the name should,
in a manner that could be left to final determination at the
discretion of the Board, express more of the service aspects of the
Trustees' work, and less of the International aspects.

A resolution expressing this approach was adopted unanimously by the
Conference.(Text in "Advisory Actions" section).

----------------------------------
CONFERENCE ADVISORY ACTIONS 1953 pg 32
----------------------------------
REPORT of the COMMITTEE on CONGRESSIONAL INCORPORATION of AA

We have reviewed all of the arguments pro and con on this subject,
have discussed it with many members of AA within the Conference and
outside of it and have come to these conclusions:

1. The evils which caused the question to arise have largely abated.

2. It would create by law a power to govern which would be contrary
to, and violative of, our Traditions.

3. It would implement the spiritual force of AA with a legal power,
which we believe would tend to weaken its spiritual strength.

I. When we ask for legal rights, enforceable in Courts of Law, we by
the same act subject ourselves to possible legal regulation.

5. We might well become endlessly entangled litigation which, together
with the incident expense and publicity, could seriously threaten our
very existence.

6. Incorporation could conceivably become the opening wedge that might
engender politics and a struggle for power within our own ranks.

7. Continuously since its beginning and today, AA has been a
fellowship and not an organization. Incorporation necessarily makes it
an organization.

8. We believe that "spiritual faith" and a "way of life" cannot be
incorporated.

9. AA can and will survive so long as it remains a spiritual faith and
a way of life to all men and women who suffer from alcoholism.

Therefore, keeping in mind, the high purpose of the General Service
Conference as expressed by the Chairman last year when he said "We
seek not compromise but certainty", your Committee unanimously
recommends that Alcoholics Anonymous does not incorporate.

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++++Message 2747. . . . . . . . . . . . Congressional Incorporation of AA -
part 2 of 3
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2005 11:05:00 PM

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The information below is from the 2nd General Service Conference
(Panel 2). This is the first Conference that consisted of the full
number of planned Delegates in attendance.

The matter of Congressional Incorporation was turned over to a
committee of 5 Delegates to present a recommendation to the 1953
Conference for resolution.

Cheers
Arthur

Final report of the 1952 General Service Conference - pg 18
--------------------------------
CONGRESSIONAL INCORPORATION

In presenting this subject for deliberation and advisory action by the
Conference, Mr. Smith reviewed briefly the origin of suggestions that
A.A. should be incorporated by an Act of Congress.

The Trustees first considered the subject seven or eight years ago,
when A.A. first began to spread "at a very accelerated rate" and when
a number of Alcoholics Anonymous groups and corporations were being
formed throughout the country, some by persons who used the name for
selfish purposes.

Several suggestions were made for "protecting" the A.A. name. One
proposal was that A.A. be incorporated in every state of the Union,
and "qualified" in two- thirds of the states. A detailed study was
made of this possibility and counsel was retained to initiate the
project. Doubts soon arose, however, as to the measure of protection
this plan would afford if any one went ahead and used the name.

Of even deeper significance, Mr. Smith said, were the doubts expressed
by Bill and others as to whether A.A., "as a faith and a way of life';
really belonged in the field of incorporation

Legal counsel was thereupon discharged and the funds advanced to him
were recovered in full.

"If we want to incorporate at all,"" Mr. Smith suggested, "it now
appears that the sound approach would be through an Act of Congress."
The fundamental purpose in even thinking of incorporation, he said,
was simply to protect the name of A.A. and to prevent non-A.A. groups
from using the name.

When the subject was opened up for discussion from the floor, a motion
was soon made and seconded that, subject to consideration of the
Trustees, steps be taken to incorporate the Society by an Act of
Congress.

Whatever support may have existed for this motion was largely
dissipated, however, by the quiet yet convincing remarks of the
delegate who asked: "Can we incorporate a way of life? Can we
incorporate a philosophy? Can we incorporate principles that were
first presented to us nearly 2,000 years ago?" A.A., this delegate
said, is "too broad and too deep" to fit the confines of
incorporation.

Although there was full expression of diverging points of view for the
remainder of the session, a motion to table the original motion was
carried unanimously. The Conference had made it clear that it was not
now ready to move forward toward Congressional incorporation.

Following this action, a motion was passed calling upon the Trustees
to appoint a committee of five Conference delegates to study the
problem.

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++++Message 2748. . . . . . . . . . . . Congressional Incorporation of AA -
part 1 of 3
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2005 11:05:00 PM

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The information below is from the 1st General Service Conference
(Panel 1). Only half the number of planned Delegates were in
attendance at this Conference.

The matter of Congressional Incorporation was introduced by Bernard B
Smith.

Cheers
Arthur

Final report of the 1951 General Service Conference - pg 6
--------------------------------
THE ACOHOLIC FOUNDATION

(The following summarizes the talk by Mr. Bernard Smith
(non-alcoholic), Chairman of the Board of Trustees of the .Alcoholic
Foundation, at the evening session Friday)

The work of the Alcoholic Foundation can perhaps be illustrated best
by describing some of the specific problems with which the Trustees
have had to deal in recent years, Mr. Smith said.

One problem involved possible unauthorized use of the name "Alcoholics
Anonymous." To protect the name, it was decided to incorporate in the
various states. The question then became: "What would be
incorporated?" Since a majority of the Trustees are non-alcoholic, the
Foundation is not really AA. It was 'suggested the problem might be
solved through a special incorporation by Act of Congress. To this,
the lawyer studying the problem reported that if AA ever had to sue,
inevitably the suit would have to be brought in the name of the
Foundation.

This posed the related problem of whether or not AA should ever go
into court. A number of the Trustees feel strongly that it should not.
It is felt that a new Tradition on this policy matter is now
developing as a guide for future action.

The question of whether or not to accept gifts also had to be
considered by the Foundation, as the only custodian of traditions and
policies up to now.

The motion picture industry's interest in AA has similarly produced
specific problems no other agency was prepared to cope with. Delicate
but firm negotiations with a major studio during the past year were
successful in preventing unfortunate exploitation of AA, Mr. Smith
pointed out.

The decision to establish the General Service Conference itself could
have emerged only following careful analysis by the Foundation. Four
years ago, when the Conference was first proposed, it was approved in
principle by only a single vote. The Trustees properly agreed, in view
of the obvious division of opinion that action should be deferred.
Although there has never been complete unanimity on the matter, the
Conference was finally established "because we need you, on behalf of
the total membership, to tell us where we shall go and how we shall
go."

While the Trustees of the Foundation are theoretically
self-perpetuating, the time has come to change---to adopt the basic
principle of rotation which is important to AA's survival and growth.
It is important that there be no basic pride of office. "Even the
pleasure of serving can become a proprietary right."

"When we know predominantly what we want to do, let's do it. When we
are not quite sure, let's wait."

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++++Message 2749. . . . . . . . . . . . The Lord''s Prayer, Or Not
From: Jan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2005 9:25:00 PM

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There are many areas of the United States where the
Lord's Prayer is generally not used to close meetings.

A very large percentage of the meetings in the New
York City and Albany, NY area use the Serenity Prayer,
instead. The same is true in large areas of British
Columbia.

In my travels around the U.S. and Canada, I've also
found many individual groups that don't use the Lord's
Prayer, even when they are in an area where the Lord's
Prayer predominates. And I've run across scattered
meetings here and there that close in some other
fashion, such as with the Responsibility Pledge or the
11th Step Prayer.

In my own area, Burlington, Vermont, about two-thirds
of the meetings use the Lord's Prayer to close and
about one-third use the Serenity Prayer.

Each group is autonomous, and decides this matter for
itself as a function of group conscience.

Jan S.
DOS 4-27-87
Vermont
________________________________

FROM: Li Lightfoot <li_lightfoot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:29pm

You may be interested to know that in the San Francisco Bay Area many AA
groups
close meetings with the Serenity Prayer... the "Lords Prayer" is actually
used
in less, rather than most, meetings. This has always been controversial in
the
Bay Area because the Lord's Prayer is looked at as a specifically Christian
prayer, and this may alienate some whose Higher Power is flavored
differently.
It may be that in Bloomington, which is a very liberal university town, it
is
looked at in the same way.
peace,
Li
________________________________

ORIGINAL MESSAGE (Message 2715):
From: TH <cometkazie1@cox.net>
Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:34 pm

I visited my son in Bloomington two years ago when he was attending IU at
the
Army's expense, but that is another story. I made about seven meetings and
none
of them used the Lord's Prayer to close. Most of the time the Third Step
Prayer
was used and one group used I am Responsible. Is this characteristic of the
general area or is it just Bloomington? I have been to mtgs here Baton
Rouge, NE
Vermont, Montreal and the Eastern Townships, and have not encountered use of
anything but the use of the LP to close the meeting.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

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++++Message 2750. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: 2nd Tradition long short
form
From: Jean Cottel . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/17/2005 6:59:00 PM

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Al-Anon still uses "primary spiritual aim" and "principles above
personalities."

Jean C.

> [Original Message]
> From: ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

Two wording changes were subsequently made to
> the November 1949 version: “primary spiritual aim” was changed to
> “primary purpose” in Tradition 6, and “principles above
personalities”
> was changed to “principles before personalities” in Tradition 12.

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++++Message 2751. . . . . . . . . . . . Treasurer''s report
From: denezmcd@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2005 1:11:00 PM

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In the pamphlet P16 The AA Group pp 25 & 26 fully discribe the duties of
the treasurer.
Dennis McD

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2752. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Bylaws for A.A. groups
From: Emil Kaluza . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2005 1:40:00 PM

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I think all groups have SOP's and standing policies
like mentioned about the notebooks. I know my home
group has a written summary of decisions of the
group's conscience in the Group Binder so we can
refer back to see what has been addressed. We also
have a standing rule that anything voted on in the
business meetings cannot be brought back before
the groups for one year.
Emil Kaluza
La Grange, TX 78945

_________________________________

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:09pm

Debi Ubernosky, in her message on this issue, makes a lot of sense of A.A.
group
by-laws.

Tommy

_________________________________

From: "Gary Becktell" <gk@kitcarson.net>
Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:08pm

I would love to see that list: "rules for membership" that GSO received from
groups way back when they were trying to get the Traditions hammered out."

G

_________________________________

From: "Joe Nugent" <joe-gent@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:36pm

Hi Lynne,

The group I belong to and all groups in our district and area disclose all
that
has happened within the month Re. the money, what it was used for and also
the
weekly amount taken in the 7th, I would believe this is normal procedure in
all
honest and above board groups.

Joe

_________________________________

From: "Maria Hoffman" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:46pm

take a look at the post from Gallery photography at 7:32 pm -- How tragic it
is
for the 3 members -- BUT the thing that struck me was: the $600. that was
stolen
by the treasurer with 18 years! and the bills not pai........ that happens
if a
group doesn't pay attention to the $itemized details!!

_________________________________

From: gratefulgal94@aol.com
Date: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:30pm

Lynn,

I am not one of the moderators of this group, nor am I an expert on the
Traditions. At one time, I was very heavily involved in the service
structure,
although not as a treasurer.

I can tell you that at least here in Michigan, I have never heard a
treasurer's report, at the group, district or area level, that did not
include a
detailed account of every penny in the group's account, including the exact
amount that was sent to the various recipients of the pie chart.

I think you are right to be concerned. I wonder why no one else in your area
is
asking these questions.

Colleen

Grateful to be sober for one more day.

_________________________________

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

From: "Debi" <dkuber@verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:44 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Bylaws for A.A. groups

> Steve,
>
> My experience is that lots of groups have "notebooks" for the
> chairperson to use that have things like the meeting format,
> announcements, what to do with the 7th Tradition, etc. typed or
> written up, but I have never heard them called "By-Laws" in this
> Area (South East Texas Area -- SETA). BUT ... this is a very big
> Area, and Texas is a very big state, so I could be wrong.
> HOWEVER ... SETA does have a complete set of "Policies & Procedures"
> by which we conduct the business of the Area at the Quarterly
> Assemblies. It is kept current by updating the list of "Assembly
> Actions" that are voted on each quarter, so we'll always know the
> answer to "What was that motion way back when where we decided to do
> such-n-such?"
>
> Just seeing the phrase "Bylaws for AA Groups" in print gives me the
> heeby jeebies! :) It brings to mind that list of "rules for
> membership" that GSO received from groups way back when they were
> trying to get the Traditions hammered out. Whew, have you seen that
> list? I used to have a copy. I don't know a soul in AA who would
> have been able to join or remain in good standing with all those
> rules.
>
> Back to the topic... who currently has all of the minutes? How do
> y'all know what the meeting format should be like? (Writing this up
> is a good place to start.) You can gather up existing items as a
> resource to start your *shudder* Bylaws. Go back through the
> minutes and find all of the "motions" that passed and make a list of
> them, with the date they were passed, and this can be the beginning
> list of your "Bylaws." Each group is autonomous, and can do
> whatever its group conscience decides, but my experience is that
> the "group" whose conscience decided something in 1990 is an
> entirely different bunch of folks than the "group" who bothers to
> attend the group conscience meetings in 2005. So compiling a list
> of past motions can serve as a guide for the future.
>
> Hope these thoughts help... thanks for letting me share. I'm
> feeling pretty verbose today, as I'm home alone with the creepy crud.
>
> Debi Ubernosky
> Sober by God's grace and AA since 11-25-90

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++++Message 2753. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill Wilson''s own words about
the history of the AA "six steps"
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2005 12:14:00 PM

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In drawing an historical conclusion, my appeal would be to be careful
to avoid reading too much out of too little.

The 1954 talk that Bill W made in Fort Worth, Texas was 1 of 3 he made
that weekend. On the program, he was supposed to speak about the
Traditions but decided at the last moment to talk about how the Big
Book came together. Since 1950, Bill had imposed a travel moratorium
on himself because of his activities in organizing the General Service
Conferences for their future role. He made an exception in his travel
moratorium to come to Fort Worth as a thank you gesture to the Dallas
and Fort Worth members who were helping Ebby T get sober (Ebby T lived
in Texas for several years and enjoyed one his longest periods of
sobriety here).

Some additional commentaries Bill made about the origin and derivation
of the 12 Steps were written by him around the same period and would
be useful in illustrating his thought processes on the Steps.

Two particularly good readings are Bill's July 1953 Grapevine article
titled "A Fragment of History: Origin of the Twelve Steps" (re
"Language of the Heart" pgs 195-202) and reaffirmed in his 1957 book
"AA Comes of Age" pgs 160-164. "Pass It On" also has some great
information - pgs 196-206.

If you examine the version of the 6 Steps defined in Earl T's Big Book
story "He Sold Himself Short" you'll see a very orthodox influence of
the Oxford Group on the version of the 6 Steps used in Akron.

The OG had a significant (but not exclusive) influence on the origin
and formulation of the Steps (6 Steps and 12 Steps). Bill explicitly
says so on pg 39 of "AA Comes of Age."

Cheers
Arthur

________________________________________
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of secondles
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 5:31 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill Wilson's own words about the history
of the AA "six steps"

I have come across a transcript of a speech Bill gave in Texas in
1954, when he related the origin of the steps while he was
developing the first concepts of the Big Book. He titled it: "HOW
THE BOOK WAS PUT TOGETHER". His speech can be seen in an ADOBE PDF
copy of the typed version.(See below). There are 17 pdf pages of
that speech, but the typed pages are 16. On page 10 of the typed
copy is the following: "So then came that night when we were up
around about Chapter 5. As you know, I'd gone on about myself which
was natural after all, and then the little introductory chapter and
we delt with the agnostic and we described alcoholism but, boy, we
finally got up to the point where we really had to say what the book
was all about and how this deal works. As I told you, this was a
six step program then..." Later he said: "And this six step program
had two big gaps in between..." The entire speech can be seen on the
web http://www.archivesinternational.org
Click on the left link "Documents" and then scroll down to "HOW THE
BOOK WAS PUT TOGETHER". This will take you to:
http://www.archivesinternational.org/AI/Documents/pdf/bigbookpt.pdf
He went on to describe how these then
became 12 Steps. For me, it seems that although Bill was certainly
influenced by his former contacts with OG, his own formulation
of "six-steps" was NOT just a copy of OG thinking or program.

Les C.

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++++Message 2754. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s own words about
the history of the AA "six steps"
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2005 3:39:00 PM

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At 17:31 10/13/2005 , Les C wrote:

>He went on to describe how these then
>became 12 Steps. For me, it seems that although Bill was certainly
>influenced by his former contacts with OG, his own formulation
>of "six-steps" was NOT just a copy of OG thinking or program.

I don't know where the idea that the steps were directly from the OG came
from but Bill states in "A.A. Comes of Age" that "Most of the basic ideas
had come from the Oxford Groups, William James, and Dr. Silkworth. Though
subject to considerable variation, it all boiled down into a pretty
consistent procedure which comprised six steps," referring here to the six
steps word of mouth program. The quote is p. 160-161.

Thanks for posting the link to the Texas talk. I had read it several years
ago and needed to read it again.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge.

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++++Message 2755. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Stories in the original
manuscript version
From: Corky Forbes . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2005 3:52:00 PM

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Try this , Joanne,

http://www.aabibliography.com/earlypioneersbigbookstores.html and
http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/index.html and
http://www.aabibliography.com/aapioneers/bigbookstories.PDF
The above PDF webb address listed 21 OM stories. According to my
understanding,
Dr. Bob is in the original as the first story and is in all the later Big
Book
additions. Hope this helps.
God bless you and have a great day.
Corky
______________________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR: Corky's three website addresses give three different
kinds
of information, all useful.

http://www.aabibliography.com/aapioneers/bigbookstories.PDF indicates which
stories were in the OM (original manuscript), which stories were in the
first
edition (including some that were added which were not in the OM), and which
stories were carried over into the second and third editions.

http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/stories1.html contains the text of the
stories which were in the first edition.

http://www.aabibliography.com/earlypioneersbigbookstores.html has photos of
some
of the people in those stories in the first edition.

______________________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: joanneinkansas
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 11:40 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Stories in the original manuscript
version

Would someone please share with me what were the stories in the
Original Manuscript of the Big Book? I've seen some OM's with no
stories, some with The Doctor's Nightmare and Ace Full-Seven-Eleven,
and some with many stories.

It was my understanding that Dr. Bob's story was not in the Original
Manuscript, but there seems to be some confusion around this area on
just what stories were included.

Thanks so much.

Jo Anne Dickson

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++++Message 2756. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Stories in the original
manuscript version
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2005 12:19:00 PM

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A copy of the original manuscript is available thru G.S.O. archives for a
minimal fee. It helps to support AA archives.
Also, G.S.O. Archives is presently without an Archivist. Judit Olah,
(full name used because she was a non alcoholic) who did a great job at
G.S.O.
Archives, resigned her position the end of August.It would certainly be nice
if an alcoholic could get the position.
If you e-mail G.S.O human resources they can send you a full job
description.mail _greenm@aa.org_ (mailto:greenm@aa.org)
Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike G. Phila, Pa.

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++++Message 2757. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book Stories in the original
manuscript version
From: Jim . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/19/2005 11:33:00 PM

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What I was able to find out: The following is an excerpt from the book
written
by Mitchell K, titled: THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER AND THE EARLY DAYS OF
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO

The excerpt from Chapter 4.1: "By the end of January 1939, the Big Book
manuscript was ready for publication. Not all of the stories were completed
or
submitted as yet. However, twenty-one of them were finished. Four hundred
copies
were multilithed - an early form of mimeographing - and were spiral bound.
They
were packed to be shipped from Newark, New Jersey, the location of the
office on
William Street."

It looks as though there were twenty one stories in The Original Manuscript
Jo
Anne, however, when I did an initial count from Nancy O's Bio's, I counted
20
stories.

Chapter 4.1 where I found the information:
http://silkworth.net/chs/chs0401.html
A little closer to the truth maybe?

Jim

____________________________

Jo Anne wrote: Would someone please share with me what were the stories in
the
Original Manuscript of the Big Book? I've seen some OM's with no stories,
some
with The Doctor's Nightmare and Ace Full-Seven-Eleven, and some with many
stories.It was my understanding that Dr. Bob's story was not in the Original
Manuscript, but there seems to be some confusion around this area on just
what
stories were included.Thanks so much.Jo Anne Dickson

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++++Message 2758. . . . . . . . . . . . "God as you understand Him"
From: Rwj . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2005 11:03:00 AM

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I have a tape of Sister Ignatia in which she takes credit for the phrase
"God as
you understand him."

She states that a Jewish patient said he couldn't participate in the group's
prayers (e.g. "The Lord's Prayer") because he wasn't a Christian and " . .
.it
just came to me to tell him 'Then why don't you pray to God as YOU
understand
him."

rocky

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

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++++Message 2759. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Doctor''s Opinion - Again
From: kyyank@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2005 3:21:00 AM

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In my research for the book, SILKWORTH,The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks,
Hazelden,...I came across no sound information as to why the page numbers
were
renumbered to Roman Numerals. While I did discuss several theories with
people who had string opinions, such as Searcy Whaley,.....nothing could
ever be
proven. The overall "feeling" I did get is in a bit of conflict with the
idea
that "distancing from a particular Medical field." In fact, as far as I
could find Bill W., et al, were in desperate need of a medical reference to
help
things along and I found no indication that they had concerns using one
theory
over another was of any worry. It was much more a matter, in my sole
opinion, that there was an enormous amount of agreement in Silkworth's
theory,
particularly form Bill W. himself who looked to Silkworth often in the early
years
for opinions on just such subject matter. I think Ernie K, and/or Bill W.
would most probably be able to shed more informed light in this subject.

Dale Mitchel

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++++Message 2760. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: What did the "Works" in the
Publishing Company mean
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2005 11:13:00 AM

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Hi Merton

According to Nell Wing in “Grateful to Have Been There” Bill W was
anything but an admirer of FDR and the programs used to rescue the
nation from the great economic depression. Apparently while in his
cups, Bill wrote some rather nasty letters to FDR. Nell Wing also
described Bill as a “rock ribbed Vermont conservative.”

Hank P appears to deserve credit for the name “Works Publishing Inc”
but there are also assertions that the name derived from New Testament
scripture in the Book of James and to a lesser extent an early AA
slogan. My inclination would be to favor Hank P. He came up with other
business names such as “Honors Dealers” and “Sharing Inc.” The name
“Works Publishing” seems to fit the style.

Please reference the following:

Pass It On - pg 147

Bill now joined Bob and Anne in the Oxford Group practice of having
morning guidance sessions together, with Anne reading from the Bible.
“Reading … from her chair in the corner, she would softly conclude,
‘Faith without works is dead.’“ As Dr Bob described it, they were
“convinced that the answer to our problem was in the Good Book. To
some of us older ones, the parts that we found absolutely essential
were the Sermon on the Mount, the 13th chapter of First Corinthians,
and the Book of James.” The Book of James was considered so important,
in fact, that some early members even suggested “The James Club” as a
name for the Fellowship.

Pass It On - pgs 194 - 195

Hank’s next action was to form a company that he called Works
Publishing Inc. How that tile was chosen is a matter of some dispute;
some said it was named for the Akronites’ (particularly Anne Smith’s)
favorite quotation from James “Faith without works is dead;” others
said it was named for a favorite slogan of the membership, “It works!”

AA Comes of Age - p 157

Our enterprise still lacked two essentials. It was not incorporated
and it did not have a name. Henry took care of these matters. Since
the forthcoming volume would be only the first of many such “works” he
thought our publishing company should be called “Works Publishing
Inc.” This was alright with me, but I protested that we had no
incorporation on which to base shares and that incorporation would
take money, Next day I found that Henry had bought a pad of blank
stock certificates in a stationery store, and across the top of each
certificate was typed the legend: “Works Publishing Inc, par value
$25.00.” At the bottom there was a signature: “Henry P. _____”,
President.” When I protested these irregularities, Henry said there
was no time to waste; why be concerned with small details?

Lois Remembers - pg 112

Hank worked out a prospectus for the new publishing company. As this
book would probably be the first of many works, he called it Works
Publishing Company, with 600 shares at twenty-five dollars par value.
Before Bill knew what was happening, Hank had bought a pad of stock
certificates at a stationery store and typed “Works Publishing
Company” at the top. At the bottom was Henry’s full name followed by
“President,” which he certainly was not.

Not God - pgs 68 - 69

In 1953, Works Publishing Inc would become AA Publishing Inc, and
finally, in 1959, AA World Service Inc, but its original name bore a
telling significance in the early history of Alcoholics Anonymous.
According to most of the New York alcoholics at the time the name
“Works Publishing” was chosen, “This name derived from a common
expression used in the group, ‘It works.’” According to the early
Akronites, the “Works” in “Works Publishing” reflected the St James
quotation that had played such a prominent part in the “infusion of
spirituality” during that first summer of 1935. The book was to be the
first of the fellowship’s “works” following out the Jamesian call to
live faith externally - by works. Both interpretations were true -
each in its own way. Perhaps Wilson even consciously used the
ambiguity inherent in the word Works. It reflected the New Yorkers
fascination with and promotional stress on proven results; at the same
time, it reassured the Akronites still hesitant about even this
project. They would be encouraged when they heard the echo of “Anne
Smith’s favorite quote.”

Cheers
Arthur

________________________________________
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mertonmm3
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 9:06 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] What did the "Works" in the Publishing
Company mean

I thought in 1990 that the story of very early AA had been pretty well
summed up in the publications to date. What could I find that hadn't
already been written about, critiqued, analyzed and been conclusively
settled beyond question as to just how this wonderful thing came to
be. Its such a pleasure to see so many people so interested in this
question which seemed like a few people were interested in back then.

The name "Works Publishing Company" always seemed a little off to me.
The stated reasons/conjecture regarding how this name came about that
I recall are 1) It was a reference to a biblical saying often used by
Dr. Bob's wife, "Faith without works are dead" and/or the slogans, "It
Works" or "It Works when you work it". The first just doesn't seem to
resonate (my opinion) with Bill during this time period. Don't ask me
why, its just a feeling. The second pair of slogans seem to have come
about a little later. I just didn't see any reference in GSO or SS
archives this early. I could be mistaken here also. So the following
is a hypothesis and hopefully some people who know about the FDR New
Deal influence can add or refute what I am basing this possible
alternative explanation that follows.

When word searching "17 Wiiliams St.", "17-19 William St." and "the
Calumet Building", all synonyms, two strange posters poped up. Not
that the posters appearances were strange. Rather I saw the references
to these beforementioned addresses on both posters including the
"Calumet" on one. Then it made reference to the Federal Art Gallery
with the same address. Then the tie in to the "Works Progress
Authority" appear which I understand was the phrase used for the
massive improvements and government funded artistic enhancement under
the era defining New Deal legislation. Was the WPC named after the WPA
in the same building in Newark? Hmmmmmm. It also seems the timing was
roughly synonomous with the time of the final stages of the creation
of the book a.1939. Both the Calumet Building design and the poster
are art deco par excellence.

Now this seems like Bill. I can easily see Bill being inspired by
being in the same building with the landscaping energy of the WPA. I
can also envision the air created for those who didn't quite know what
to make by what was going on in office 601 then 604. Perhaps they
assumed Works Publishing Company was a branch of the megapowerful
sculpture creating Works Progress Authority. Maybe it silenced those
who might otherwise judge the seemingly intoxicated individuals that
entered the doors. Don't question the feds even if they are a little
bit tipsy.

This is utter and complete unsubstantiated speculation on my part. It
just seems that the extremely closely named entities in the same
building is possibly more than a coincidence. Bill liked to hook the
infant fellowship to big names like Jung, James and Rockerfeller. The
WPA represented major change and recovery of America after the great
depression. Recovery. Here's what it says on the sites offering
reproductions of these two posters:

"WPA ( Works Progress Administration ) Posters were made during the
WWII Era between 1936 and 1943 as part of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's
New Deal. We are offering reproductions of approximately 800 of these
posters which were orginally silkscreen, lithograph, and woodcuts.
They were designed to publicize health and safety programs; cultural
programs including art exhibitions, theatrical, and musical
performances; travel and tourism; educational programs; and community
activities in seventeen states and the District of Columbia. The
posters were made possible by one of the first U.S. Government
programs to support the arts .

Title: Exhibit - WPA Federal Art Gallery, State of New Jersey Opening
Nov. 15, Calumet B'l'd'g., 17-19 William St., Newark, N.J.

Description: Exhibit - WPA Federal Art Gallery, State of New Jersey
Opening Nov. 15, Calumet B'l'd'g., 17-19 William St., Newark, N.J.
Poster announcing opening of exhibit of WPA art at the Federal Art
Gallery at 17-19 William St., Newark, New Jersey, showing drafting and
painting equipment."

Any comments are appreciated especially by those familiar with the
"feeling" of the WPA at that time.

-merton

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++++Message 2761. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Big Book Stories in the original
manuscript version
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2005 1:26:00 PM

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Big Book Stories - Original Manuscript, 1st and Other Editions

A Business Man's Recovery, Bill R, OM & 1st ed, NY: 1st Board Chair
11/38 - 2/39 - slipped - had to resign

A Close Shave, Harry Z, OM & 1st ed, OH: Trustee 1/52 - 4/56

A Different Slant, Harry B, OM & 1st ed, NY: 2nd Board Chair 2/39 -
12/39 - slipped - had to resign

A Feminine Victory, Florence R, OM & 1st ed, NY: committed suicide in
Washington DC

A Ward of the Probate Court, Bill Van H, OM & 1st ed, OH

Ace Full-Seven-Eleven, Unknown, OM, OH: withdrew story - reputedly
didn't like changes made to Big Book

An Alcoholic's Wife, Marie B, 1st ed, OH: non-alcoholic wife of Walter
B

An Artist's Concept, Ray C, 1st ed, NY: designed Big Book dust jacket
- 1st cited “Herbert Spencer” quote in his story

Another Prodigal Story, Ralph F, 1st ed, MA

Dr Bob's Nightmare nee The Doctor's Nightmare, OH, co-founder -
Trustee 11/38- 10/49

Educated Agnostic, Norman H, OM & 1st ed, CT

Fired Again, Wally G, OM & 1st ed, OH

He Had To Be Shown nee The Car Smasher, Dick S, 1st - 3rd ed, OH:
brother of Paul S, Trustee 4/46 - 1/53

Hindsight, Myron W, 1st ed, NY

Home Brewmeister, Clarence S, OM & 1st - 3rd ed, Cleveland: claimed
himself “founder of AA”

Lone Endeavor, Pat C, 1st ed, CA: ghost written by Ruth Hock - removed
in 2nd printing

My Wife And I, Jim & Maybell L, OM & 1st ed, OH

On His Way, Horace “Popsy” M, 1st ed, NY:

Our Southern Friend, John Henry Fitzhugh “Fitz” M, OM & 1st - 4th ed,
NY, Washington DC, Baltimore

Riding The Rods, Charley S, OM & 1st ed, OH

Smile With Me, At Me, Harold S, OM & 1st ed, NY

The Back-Slider, Walter B, OM, 1st ed, OH, husband of Marie B

The European Drinker, Joe D, OM & 1st - 3rd ed, OH

The Man Who Mastered Fear nee The Fearful One, Archie T, OM & 1st -
4th ed, Detroit, MI

The News Hawk nee Traveler, Editor, Scholar, Jim, S, OM & 1st - 3rd
ed, OH: helped edit Big Book stories

The Rolling Stone, Lloyd T, 1st ed, OH

The Salesman, Bob O, OM & 1st ed, OH

The Seven Month Slip, Ernie G, OM & 1st ed, OH: Dr Bob's son-in-law

The Unbeliever, Henry “Hank” P, OM & 1st ed, NY: wrote Big Book
chapter To Employers

The Vicious Cycle, Jim B, 1st - 4th ed, NY, Philadelphia, Baltimore:
coined “God as we understood Him”

Truth Freed Me, Paul S, OM & 1st ed, OH: brother of Dick S

Cheers
Arthur

________________________________________
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of joanneinkansas
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 11:41 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Stories in the original manuscript
version

Would someone please share with me what were the stories in the
Original Manuscript of the Big Book? I've seen some OM's with no
stories, some with The Doctor's Nightmare and Ace Full-Seven-Eleven,
and some with many stories.

It was my understanding that Dr. Bob's story was not in the Original
Manuscript, but there seems to be some confusion around this area on
just what stories were included.

Thanks so much.

Jo Anne Dickson

SPONSORED LINKS
Addiction recovery program
Recovery from addiction
Addiction recovery center
Christian addiction recovery
Alcoholics anonymous

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• Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

• To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Service.

________________________________________

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++++Message 2762. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "This Matter of Fear" and Jung
From: Hugh D. Hyatt . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2005 2:10:00 PM

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lessspamplease is alleged to have written, on or about 17-Oct-05 11:03:
> In his essay "This Matter of Fear" which appears in "The Best of Bill"
> Bill W. paraphrases Jung as follows
>
> "Any person who has reached forty years of age, and who still has no
> means of comprehending who he is, ......"
>
> Does anyone know the source of this idea in Jung's writings. Any
> information would be greatly appreciated.

A couple of Jung quotes that you might be thinking of:

"The greatest and most important problems of life are all fundamentally
insoluble. They can never be solved but only outgrown."

"I have treated many hundreds of patients.... Among [those] in the
second half of life—-that is to say, over 35—-there has not been one
whose problem in the last resort was not that of finding a religious
outlook on life."

> FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn Chesnut, South Bend, Indiana)
<snip>
> A statement similar to this occurs (I believe although I am not sure)
> in C. G. Jung's autobiography, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections," ed.
> Aniela Jaffe', trans. Richard and Clara Winston (New York: Vintage
> Books/Random House, 1965). I cannot give you the page reference,
> and am trying to do this from memory, so I may have it wrong. But
> my memory is that Jung stated that people had to come to terms with
> the fact that they were going to die someday, by the time they
> reached mid life, or they would go insane worrying about their own
> future death.
<snip>

Could this be it?

"From the middle of life onward, only he remains vitally alive who is
ready to die with life." -- Carl Jung, repr. in Collected Works, vol.
8, para. 800, ed. William McGuire (1960). The Soul and Death (1934).

--
Hugh H.
Bryn Athyn, PA

I'm donating my body to science fiction.

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++++Message 2763. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1st edition big books
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2005 12:16:00 AM

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Regarding the rarity of the 1st ed. 7th printing its because almost
the entire printing was shipped overseas to the combat soldiers. Few
of the books came back to the US. The following printing the 8th, was
miniturized because over a war induced paper shortage.
-merton

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, bikergaryg@a... wrote:
>
> Does anyone know why the first edition seventh printing 1945 is so
rare?
> I know 5000 where printed.
> the myth I heard is most where sent overseas at that time and where
lost when
> the supply ship was sunk they where on.
> also
> does anyone know the amount of different colored big book covers and
why
> different colors where used.
> myth or truth
>
> only 1500 of the 5000 first edition fourth printing 1943 where green
covers,
> the rest blue?
> the first edition third printing had some green covers also?
> that ink was in short supply and they used what they had in stock?
>
> the rarer the book the more valuable it is.
> but as we all know this program is priceless.
> bikergaryg
>

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++++Message 2764. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarence S. Letter to Hank P.
(6/4/39)
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2005 8:31:00 AM

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June 4, 1939

Dear Hank [P.]:

Read your community letters and to say that the combination of hocus-pocus,
brimstone, humor, seriousness and intelligence is amusing and instructive
would certainly belittle the facts. Received a very nice letter from Bill
[W.] also yesterday.

Our situation here with the Jones business is under control and things are
going along too too ducky for words. Bill Jones and I and Clarissa
Williams, and etc. etc. had a knockdown dragout affair a couple of weeks ago
and they have chosen to leave us alone and confine their activities
elsewhere. We lost the activities of three or four rummies but I guess it
had to be that way. Life is too short and there is too much to be done to
spend any time or energy carrying on any comedy or petting business with any
Oxford Group or any other group. As I analyze it, the main trouble was the
Oxford Group wants the bows and along with perhaps some resentment or
jealousy connected with the fact that I happen to be the gonoph that took
the initiative to get our Cleveland gang started, Jones got Tate and Charlie
Johns all in a muddle and of course Jones will not permit anyone to touch
his prize exhibition piece (Rollie Hemsley) so those four are out and
possibly one more may be out, but I am not certain. Certainly they are all
21 years old, free and white and if they had no brains in the first place
they wouldn’t be rummies, so consequently I have no intention of running
after them or kissing their footsies. Let them make up their own minds from
here on out. I really had to play a little rough for a few weeks and really
got some belting around but everything is hotsy totsy now. We have about
fifteen or sixteen fellows now who are all 100% in my corner so we are able
to go ahead and really get things done.

There is nothing to disturb myself, Bill [W.], or you, or anyone else here
now and we really expect to do a lot of work. Most of the people are
intensely interested and are out working and doing something about it.

Our policy will be mainly this – not too much stress on spiritual business
at meetings. Have discussion after meetings of any business or questions
arising. Plenty of fellowship all the time. Leaders of meetings have been
chosen so far by seniority in the bunch. Cooperation in visiting at the
hospital, so as not to gang up on the patient, -- but rather try to see him
one or at the most two fellows at a time. We have an ideal hospital set up,
and have an alcoholic physician in attendance. Doc Smith came up and talked
to the superintendent of the hospital and the resident physician last week
and they are very sympathetic and enthusiastic. We have had one patient
through the mill there already and expect two or three more this coming
week.

The catholic boys lined up the doctor and are watching him like hawks to
try to keep him straight until the dangerous time is passed. We intent to
stress the hospitalization of all cases possible, in fact we are trying to
make it almost 100%. The man who lines up the new patient assumes the
responsibility for him, for visitors, dollars, etc. After he is defogged we
feel him out, then give him the book, and lots of conversation. Our book
certainly has been a tremendous help. We also contact the family when he is
in the hospital and give them conversation and the book.

We have the experience of New York and Akron before us to guide us and we
feel that we are now on a very good footing. By the way, I am enclosing a
check for four books – please send them on as soon as possible – we need
them. Hope you and Bill [W.] can get out this way soon and meet our gang
and give us some or your experience and wisdom.

Sincerely,

Clarence H. Snyder

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++++Message 2765. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarence Synder
From: red_radiant . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2005 10:08:00 AM

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I am doing research for a paper in my Psychology class about the
founders of AA. We are doing it from a psychological angle and would
like to know if any one has information on Clarence Snyder's personal
life, i.e., how many times he was married, were his wives members of
AA. Also, is there any archived material as to why his first marriage
ended in divorce. Also, any background on his sponsorship work would
be appreciated also.

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++++Message 2767. . . . . . . . . . . . Nell Wing and Marty Mann
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2005 3:11:00 PM

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Hi All,

I have recently heard, for the first time, about a "12-year freeze"
between Nell Wing and Marty Mann. I saw no signs of it when the three
of us dined together in 1977.

Might anyone have any idea about the validity of this phrase, what might
have been behind it, and all such things?

BTW, if anyone wishes to contact me off-list on what could be a lasting
touchy matter, I welcome such contact and promise to abide by any
conditions that might be attached to the information.

Gratefully,

ernie kurtz
kutrzern@umich.edu

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++++Message 2768. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "This Matter of Fear" and Jung
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2005 7:20:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "lessspamplease"
<lessspamplease@y...>
wrote:

In his essay "This Matter of Fear" which appears in "The Best of Bill" Bill
W.
paraphrases Jung as follows "Any person who has reached forty years of age,
and
who still has no means of comprehending who he is, ......"

Does anyone know the source of this idea in Jung's writings. Any information
would be greatly appreciated.
__________________________

How about this one:

"Ageing people should know that their lives are not mounting and unfolding,
but
that an inexorable inner process forces the contraction of life. For a young
person it is almost a
sin-and certainly a danger-to be too much occupied with himself. After
having
lavished its light upon the world, the sun withdraws its rays in order to
illumine itself. Instead of doing likewise, many old people prefer to be
hypochondriacs, niggards, doctinaires, applauders of the past or eternal
adolescents--all lamentable substitutes for the illumination of the self,
but
inevitable consequences of the delusion that the second half of life must be
governed by the principle of the first."

This comes from "The Stages of Life", p.109 of the paperback edition of
Modern
Man in Search of a Soul. I checked that book first because I had read
somewhere
that Wilson had read it. The original publication date was 1933.

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++++Message 2769. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: 1st edition big books
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2005 7:51:00 AM

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At 00:16 10/21/2005 , mertonmm3 wrote:

>Regarding the rarity of the 1st ed. 7th printing its because almost
>the entire printing was shipped overseas to the combat soldiers. Few
>of the books came back to the US. The following printing the 8th, was
>miniturized because over a war induced paper shortage.
>-merton

I'm not sure what Merton means by "miniaturized" but the last of the larger
editions, ~6.25x9.25x2" was the 5th printing of January 1944.

This 6th printing was more the size of the current hard-bound
~5.75x8.5x1.25". My 11th printing is noticeably thinner than the
subsequent editions.

I note that the 8th was printed only a month behind the 7th, in February
1944, perhaps lending credence to the notion that the 7th was intended for
the troops. Is there any historical evidence for this notion or is it one
of the A.A. urban legends?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2770. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Synder
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2005 9:29:00 AM

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Just to keep it simple... Clarence Was married 3 times
- Dorothy, Selma and Grace. Grace was the only AA
member when they married. Basically, the reason
Dorothy and Clarence divorced grew out of past
behaviors from when he was drinking (not infidelities
but not being there and being drunk all the time) and
out of the fact that Clarence wasn't really a good
husband at that time nor was he a good father to his
son. For many years, Clarence was married to AA and
his AA work and Dorothy took second class citizenship
status. The good news is that Clarence and Dorothy
remained good friends throughout, corresponded and
talked with each other. Maybe they just weren't
supposed to be married after Clarence sobered up.
Dorothy also remained good friends with Ruth Hock C.
and Bill. One of Dorothy' s sisters was also Hank
Parkhurst's wife for a while.

As to his sponsorship work.... there are several
schools of thought on this. I have spoken with many
people who were sponsored by Clarence and his style,
though it remained somewhat constant, changed in part
of the content pre and post Grace Snyder. It is my
opinion that a lot of sponsorship as we know of it
today is a direct result of Clarence Snyder's work in
AA's early days.

> I am doing research for a paper in my Psychology
> class about the
> founders of AA. We are doing it from a psychological
> angle and would
> like to know if any one has information on Clarence
> Snyder's personal
> life, i.e., how many times he was married, were his
> wives members of
> AA. Also, is there any archived material as to why
> his first marriage
> ended in divorce. Also, any background on his
> sponsorship work would
> be appreciated also.
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2771. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clarence Synder
From: William Cox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2005 10:37:00 AM

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(Billy C. reminds us here that the standard work on Clarence Snyder is
Mitchell
K.'s biography. Those who want to know more about Clarence should certainly
begin by reading this book. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana.)
_________________________________________

Clarence was my sponsor's sponsor. There is a book he has written called
"How it
Worked...The story of Clarence Snyder and the early days of Alcoholic
Anonymous
in Cleveland, Ohio" by Mitchell K. with a forward by Ernie Kurtz(both of
them
members of this Group).

Regards,
Billy Cox
Annapolis, Md
"a drinking town with a sailing problem"

red_radiant <red_radiant@yahoo.com> wrote:
I am doing research for a paper in my Psychology class about the
founders of AA. We are doing it from a psychological angle and would
like to know if any one has information on Clarence Snyder's personal
life, i.e., how many times he was married, were his wives members of
AA. Also, is there any archived material as to why his first marriage ended
in
divorce. Also, any background on his sponsorship work would be appreciated
also.

SPONSORED LINKS
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Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous

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++++Message 2772. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarence S., "The Home Brewmeister"
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/24/2005 5:56:00 PM

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There is a very nice short biography of Clarence S. on Al W.'s West
Baltimore
Group AA history site. Nancy Olson (who founded the AAHistoryLovers -- see
http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html) played a major role in assembling this set
of
biographies for the authors of the stories at the back of the Big Book.

For the entire set of biographies see:
http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm

The Home Brewmeister -- Clarence H. Snyder

Cleveland, Ohio

Original Manuscript, p. 274 in 1st edition, p. 297 in 2nd and 3rd editions

An originator of Cleveland's Group No. 3, this one fought Prohibition in
vain.

Clarence had his last drink on February 11, 1938, according to the article
he
wrote for the A.A. Grapevine November 1968 issue. Fifteen months later he
organized the first Cleveland group.

Clarence was born on December 26, 1902, in Cleveland, Ohio, the youngest of
three brothers. He dropped out of high school at fourteen, after his
father's
death, and went to work. He later took many night courses studying
economics,
business, credits, and collections. This prepared him for later employment
at
the City National Bank in Cleveland, from which he was fired for alcoholism
at
the age of thirty-two. It was not the only job from which he had been fired.

After holding good positions, making better than average income for over ten
years, he was bankrupt in every way. He was in debt, he had no clothes to
speak
of, no money, no friends, and no one any longer tolerated him except his
wife,
not even his son or the saloonkeepers. He was unemployable. He said in a
talk he
gave in 1965 that he couldn't even get a job with the WPA. His wife,
Dorothy,
who worked for an employment agency, couldn't even get him a job.

Then Dorothy heard of a doctor in Akron who had been successful in treating
alcoholics. She offered him the alternative of going to see Dr. Bob or her
leaving for good. He agreed and that was the turning point in his life. He
entered the hospital (after first going on a three-day drunk). While in the
hospital a plan for living was explained to him, a simple plan that he found
great joy and happiness in following.

He became an enthusiastic 12th stepper, literally dragging prospects for
A.A.
off bar stools.

Clarence started the first A.A. group in Cleveland in 1939, in part because
some
Roman Catholic priests in Cleveland were refusing to let Catholics attend
the
Oxford Group meeting in Akron.

This was the first group to use the name Alcoholics Anonymous. Nell Wing,
Bill
Wilson's long_time secretary, said that Bill had been using the name since
1938
in letters and a pamphlet, but on this slender basis, Clarence forever
claimed
to have founded A.A.

Dorothy also was very active and did much to help A.A. in Cleveland. They
were
divorced before Clarence was drafted into the Army in 1942. Dorothy and
their
son moved to California.

Unfortunately, Clarence had an abrasive personality, and as one of his
friends
said, you either loved him or hated him. According to Nell Wing, had he not
been
so abrasive he probably would have been considered a co-founder of A.A.

When Clarence left Cleveland for military service a farewell party was held
for
him and he was presented with a wristwatch as a gift from all the West Side
groups who acclaimed him for his pioneer work in Cleveland and particularly
on
the West Side. In a letter from basic training, Private Snyder said the
going
was rough, and he wished he were fifteen or twenty years younger. He
supplied
his address at Fort Knox, Kentucky, for anyone who wished to write him, and
said
he missed the association of the groups and was looking for other A.A.
members
in Kentucky.

He became very hostile toward Bill Wilson. He opposed the traditions and
continued to use his full name in public. He led a small group to oppose the
Conference and the General Service Office.

After the war he married his second wife, Selma, who worked at the Deaconess
Hospital, where her father was the director. Clarence often took alcoholics
there to sober them up. Clarence and Selma moved to St. Petersburg, Florida.
Eventually they divorced.

Clarence then married his third wife, Grace (also an A.A. member), and
joined
her as a member of the Assembly of God Church in Winter Park. They did much
A.A.
work together and conducted many religious retreats. Unlike Bill Wilson, he
always used his full name in public, and was honored with several
prestigious
awards for public service during his life, which he did not hesitate to
accept.

He remained very active in A.A., and his A.A. work became increasingly
Christian
fundamentalist in nature. He and Grace lived at 142 S. Lake Triplet Drive in
Casselberry, Florida, until his death on March 22, 1984.

He was buried in Cameron Cemetery in Cameron, North Carolina, in Grace's
family
plot.

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++++Message 2773. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Lord''s Prayer, Or Not -
Part 1 of 2
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2005 3:53:00 PM

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A Letter From Bill Wilson About The Use Of The Lord’s Prayer

April 14, 1959

Dear Russ,

Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time
out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon
type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now,
however, but I did want to explain my delay.

Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A.
meeting.

This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were
influential in the early days of AA. You have probably noted in AA.
Comes of Age what the connection of these people in AA really was. I
think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the
close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a
general custom among us.

Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the
introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary AA gathering.
Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian
document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and
recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a
little farfetched. It is also true that most AAs believe in some kind
of God and that communication and strength is obtainable through His
grace. Since this is the general consensus it seems only right that at
least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used in connection
with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings
of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent of completely
hiding our light under a bushel.

However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to
join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so.
The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to
it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage
of progress.

So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your
letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.

Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the
friendship of you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross
one of these days.

Devotedly yours,
Bill Wilson

Cheers
Arthur
________________________________________
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jan
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:25 PM
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer, Or Not

There are many areas of the United States where the
Lord's Prayer is generally not used to close meetings.

A very large percentage of the meetings in the New
York City and Albany, NY area use the Serenity Prayer,
instead. The same is true in large areas of British
Columbia.

In my travels around the U.S. and Canada, I've also
found many individual groups that don't use the Lord's
Prayer, even when they are in an area where the Lord's
Prayer predominates. And I've run across scattered
meetings here and there that close in some other
fashion, such as with the Responsibility Pledge or the
11th Step Prayer.

In my own area, Burlington, Vermont, about two-thirds
of the meetings use the Lord's Prayer to close and
about one-third use the Serenity Prayer.

Each group is autonomous, and decides this matter for
itself as a function of group conscience.

Jan S.
DOS 4-27-87
Vermont
________________________________

FROM: Li Lightfoot <li_lightfoot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:29pm

You may be interested to know that in the San Francisco Bay Area many
AA groups close meetings with the Serenity Prayer... the "Lords
Prayer" is actually used in less, rather than most, meetings. This has
always been controversial in the Bay Area because the Lord's Prayer is
looked at as a specifically Christian prayer, and this may alienate
some whose Higher Power is flavored differently.
It may be that in Bloomington, which is a very liberal university
town, it is looked at in the same way.
peace,
Li
________________________________

ORIGINAL MESSAGE (Message 2715):
From: TH <cometkazie1@cox.net>
Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:34 pm

I visited my son in Bloomington two years ago when he was attending IU
at the Army's expense, but that is another story. I made about seven
meetings and none of them used the Lord's Prayer to close. Most of the
time the Third Step Prayer was used and one group used I am
Responsible. Is this characteristic of the general area or is it just
Bloomington? I have been to mtgs here Baton Rouge, NE Vermont,
Montreal and the Eastern Townships, and have not encountered use of
anything but the use of the LP to close the meeting.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 2774. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Lord''s Prayer, Or Not -
Part 2 of 2
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2005 4:27:00 PM

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In regards to “Christian” prayers at AA meetings:

As Bill Sees It, pg 293: “He can do this because he now accepts a God
who is All - and who loves all. When he says, ‘Our Father who art in
heaven, hallowed be Thy name,’ he deeply and humbly means it …”
Unfortunately, some members focus on who wrote the Lord’s Prayer
instead of its content and substance.

The Serenity Prayer as a "non-Christian" prayer:

If someone thinks the Serenity Prayer is not a "Christian" prayer,
they might want to think again or do a bit of research. Compared to
the Lord's Prayer, the Serenity Prayer is just as, actually more,
“Christian” in its full version (we only say the first part):

“God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time. Accepting
hardship as a pathway to peace. Taking, as Jesus did, this sinful
world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that You will make
all things right if I surrender to Your will. So that I may be
reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with You in the
next.”

Some unfortunately alter the wording of the prayer from “as Jesus did”
to “as He did”.

References to so-called “Christian” prayers appear throughout AA
literature. The term “Thy will be done” is from the Lord’s Prayer
(i.e. “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done” from the book of Mark).The
book of James is the source of the term “Faith without works is dead.”

Big Book references:

Pgs 67 and 88: "Thy will be done"
Pg 85: "Thy will (not mine) be done"
Pgs 14, 76 and 88: “Faith without works is dead”

Pg 87: “If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and
memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been
discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these
may be obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see
where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer.”

12&12 References:

Pg 32: "Thy will be done"
Pgs 41, 102, 103: "Thy will, not mine, be done"

The 12&12 and AA Comes of Age also contain the so-called “11th Step
Prayer.” Its actual title is the “Peace Prayer of Saint Francis” (a
Christian Saint). It was Bill W’s favorite prayer. However, St Francis
didn't write it (according to Franciscan web site). But it is a
beautiful prayer.

Extracts from Bill W’s 1960 talk to the National Clergy Conference on
Alcoholism

“... Every thoughtful AA realizes that the divine grace, which has
always flowed through the Church, is the ultimate foundation on which
AA rests. Our spiritual origins are Christian. (Later in the talk)

If these misgivings had real substance, they would be serious indeed.
But, as I have already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot in the
least be regarded as a new religion. Our Twelve Steps have no
theological content, except that which speaks of "God as we understand
Him." This means that each individual AA member may define God
according to whatever faith or creed he may have. Therefore there
isn’t the slightest interference with the religious views of any of
our membership. The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral attitudes
and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in character.
Therefore, as far as they go, the Steps are good Christianity; indeed
they are good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have
affirmed more than once.”

General Service Conference Advisory Actions:

1952: “all Conference sessions are to open with the Serenity Prayer
and close with the Lord’s Prayer”

1954: “the General Service Conference will end with the recitation of
the Lord’s Prayer”

1975: “convention meetings will open with the Serenity Prayer and
close with the Lord’s Prayer”

The AA Group Pamphlet Pg 16:

“whether open or closed, AA group meetings are conducted by AA
members, who determine the format of their meetings. [Pg 19] many
meetings close with members reciting the Lord’s Prayer or the Serenity
Prayer.”

Epilogue

All references to so-called “Christian” prayers in Conference-approved
literature and meetings do not in any way imply affiliation with, or
endorsement of, any religion.

Cheers
Arthur
________________________________________
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jan
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:25 PM
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer, Or Not

There are many areas of the United States where the
Lord's Prayer is generally not used to close meetings.

A very large percentage of the meetings in the New
York City and Albany, NY area use the Serenity Prayer,
instead. The same is true in large areas of British
Columbia.

In my travels around the U.S. and Canada, I've also
found many individual groups that don't use the Lord's
Prayer, even when they are in an area where the Lord's
Prayer predominates. And I've run across scattered
meetings here and there that close in some other
fashion, such as with the Responsibility Pledge or the
11th Step Prayer.

In my own area, Burlington, Vermont, about two-thirds
of the meetings use the Lord's Prayer to close and
about one-third use the Serenity Prayer.

Each group is autonomous, and decides this matter for
itself as a function of group conscience.

Jan S.
DOS 4-27-87
Vermont
________________________________

FROM: Li Lightfoot <li_lightfoot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:29pm

You may be interested to know that in the San Francisco Bay Area many
AA groups close meetings with the Serenity Prayer... the "Lords
Prayer" is actually used in less, rather than most, meetings. This has
always been controversial in the Bay Area because the Lord's Prayer is
looked at as a specifically Christian prayer, and this may alienate
some whose Higher Power is flavored differently.
It may be that in Bloomington, which is a very liberal university
town, it is looked at in the same way.
peace,
Li
________________________________

ORIGINAL MESSAGE (Message 2715):
From: TH <cometkazie1@cox.net>
Date: Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:34 pm

I visited my son in Bloomington two years ago when he was attending IU
at the Army's expense, but that is another story. I made about seven
meetings and none of them used the Lord's Prayer to close. Most of the
time the Third Step Prayer was used and one group used I am
Responsible. Is this characteristic of the general area or is it just
Bloomington? I have been to mtgs here Baton Rouge, NE Vermont,

Montreal and the Eastern Townships, and have not encountered use of
anything but the use of the LP to close the meeting.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

SPONSORED LINKS
Addiction recovery program
Recovery from addiction
Addiction recovery center
Christian addiction recovery
Alcoholics anonymous

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++++Message 2775. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "God as you understand Him"
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2005 5:40:00 PM

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I respectfully suggest you might be reading something into the beloved
Sister's words that she isn't saying. She certainly gave the patient
some good advice but I sincerely doubt the humble "Little Angel AA"
was giving herself any kind of "credit" for anything. From what I've
read of her, that was just not her style.

In attempting to record an historical fact it is beneficial to try to
glean information from multiple sources prior to making a conclusion.

In August 1939, Dr Bob and Sister Ignatia (in charge of admissions)
started working together at St Thomas Hospital in Akron. On August 16,
1939 Sister Ignatia arranged for the first AA admission, Walter B, at
the request of Dr Bob. Bob revealed to Sister Ignatia his own problems
with alcohol. (AA Comes of Age pgs viii, 7 Sister Ignatia pgs 15-19,
Not God pgs 79-80 Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers pgs 187-188)

Dr Bob and Sister Ignatia didn't start their partnership until some 4
months after the Big Book was published. "God as you understand Him"
was already part of the 12 Steps and basic text.

NY member Jim B (whose Big Book story is "Vicious Cycle") suggested
the phrases “God as we understand Him” and “Power greater than
ourselves” be added to the Steps and basic text. Bill W later wrote
“Those expressions, as we so well know today, have proved lifesavers
for many an alcoholic.” (Language of the Heart pg 201, AA Comes of Age
pgs 17,162-163).

Prior to that, in late 1934, Ebby T pretty much gave the same advice
to Bill W that Sister Ignatia gave to the patient ("why don't you
choose your own conception of God" pg 12 of the Big Book). Also, Sam
Shoemaker and others in the Oxford Group were reputed to encourage new
prospects to make their beginning by developing their own conception
of God (it very nicely places responsibility on the individual).

Page 47 of the Big Book states:

When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception
of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you
find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against
spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean
to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual
growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we
understood Him. Afterward, we found ourselves accepting many things
which then seemed entirely out of reach. That was growth, but if we
wished to grow we had to begin somewhere. So we used our own
conception, however limited it was.

Cheers
Arthur

________________________________________
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rwj
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 11:03 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "God as you understand Him"

I have a tape of Sister Ignatia in which she takes credit for the
phrase "God as you understand him."

She states that a Jewish patient said he couldn't participate in the
group's prayers (e.g. "The Lord's Prayer") because he wasn't a
Christian and " . . .it just came to me to tell him 'Then why don't
you pray to God as YOU understand him."

rocky

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2776. . . . . . . . . . . . Some input on The Quaker Business
Meeting
From: J. Carey Thomas . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2005 10:47:00 AM

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Below is a partial response from my Quaker cousin, which may
elucidate somewhat the nature of these Quaker Business meetings and their
influence on our A.A. traditions and concepts.
He may be a little off on what the Oxford group(s) were, but the
meeting stuff looks to be significantly on the mark. (It seems the
"minority" wins...!)
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

Hi Carey,
Good to hear from you!!! You've got me scratching my head.

1) QBM. The Quaker Business method is a method of making decisions at
business meetings [e.g. of Quaker Meetings] and running the meeting. As
such, it is an alternative to Roberts Rules of Order. The key element of
QBM is that instead of "majority rules", there is a profound desire for
unanimity. There is discussion, more discussion, discernment; the clerk
of the meeting listens, and if possible states "I have the sense of the
meeting...." If someone dissents, there is more discussion; there is a
fair amount of peer pressure on the dissenter. Nonetheless, if (s)he
stands firm, the motion is not carried. When I was on the Student
Council at Haverford, we used the QBM. In general, it works well a lot
of the time, but in the past, it didn't keep the Quakers from splitting
into subqroups.

2) Quaker influence on AA. I can't shed light on this (inner or outer
light). The suggestion that there was Quaker influence on the Oxford
Group seems reasonable, but by 1900 I don't know how much was Quaker
influence compared to that of English Evangelicals (Baptists; Chapel
groups).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2777. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Tiebout
From: rrecovery2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2005 10:15:00 PM

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Is it pronounced Tee-Beau or Tie-beau or is there some other way?

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++++Message 2778. . . . . . . . . . . . Early references to "Alcoholics
Anonymous" as a name
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2005 5:57:00 PM

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In regards to the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" and some specific
references:

1938

June, Bill W wrote to Dr Bob “By the way, you might all be thinking up
a good title. Nearly everyone agrees that we should sign the volume
‘Alcoholics Anonymous.’ Titles such as ‘Haven,’ ‘One Hundred
Men,’
‘Comes the Dawn,’ etc. have been suggested.” (Not God pgs 74-75, 333)

June 15, Lois W’s recollection of the first use of the term
“Alcoholics Anonymous” (Lois Remembers pg 197)

July 15, in a letter to Messrs Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the
Rockefeller Foundation, Bill W invited them to his home on Clinton St
for meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous. (Pass It On pg 202)

July 18, Dr Esther L Richards (of Johns Hopkins) stated in a letter
that Bill W, at that time, was using the name “Alcoholics Anonymous”
both as the working title of the book and as the name of the
Fellowship. (Pass It On pg 202)

October, Bill W’s recollection of the first use of the term Alcoholics
Anonymous. (AA Comes of Age pg 165, Pass It On pg 202)

1939

Jan, the draft book text and personal stories were completed. (AA
Comes of Age pg 164, Bill W-Robert Thomsen pg 255)

Jan, 400 multilith copies of the book were distributed for evaluation.
Bill W labeled the title of the manuscript as “Alcoholics Anonymous.”
Bill credited NY member Joe W for getting the NY membership to favor
the name “Alcoholics Anonymous” for the book. Each copy of the
manuscript was stamped “Loan Copy” to protect the coming copyright.
(AA Comes of Age pgs 165-166, Lois Remembers pg 197, Not God pgs 74,
319, Pass It On pg 200).

April, the first edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous" was published

May 10, Led by pioneer member Clarence S (whose Big Book story is
“Home Brewmeister”) the Cleveland, OH group met separately from Akron
and the Oxford Group at the home of Albert (Abby) G (whose Big Book
story is “He Thought He Could Drink Like a Gentleman”). This was the
first group to call itself “Alcoholics Anonymous.” The Clevelanders
still sent their most difficult cases to Dr Bob in Akron for
treatment. (AA Comes of Age pgs 19-21, New Wine pg 94, Sister Ignatia
pg 35, Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers” pgs 161-168, Not God pgs 78-79,
Pass It On pg 224, Akron Genesis of AA pgs 4, 201, 242).

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2779. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill Wilson''s own words about
the history of the AA "six steps"
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/22/2005 9:36:00 AM

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I personally prefer the original literature and
documents rather than rely upon recollections from
1954 and AA Comes of Age which I also find flawed in
historical accuracy. Earl's 1950's recollections might
also have been prompted by Bill's influence. Again,
pre 1950's there appear to be no documented reference
to any sort of 6 steps of the Oxford Group or 6 step
program coming from either the alcoholics in NY or
Akron.

--- ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:

> In drawing an historical conclusion, my appeal would
> be to be careful
> to avoid reading too much out of too little.
>
> The 1954 talk that Bill W made in Fort Worth, Texas
> was 1 of 3 he made
> that weekend. On the program, he was supposed to
> speak about the
> Traditions but decided at the last moment to talk
> about how the Big
> Book came together. Since 1950, Bill had imposed a
> travel moratorium
> on himself because of his activities in organizing
> the General Service
> Conferences for their future role. He made an
> exception in his travel
> moratorium to come to Fort Worth as a thank you
> gesture to the Dallas
> and Fort Worth members who were helping Ebby T get
> sober (Ebby T lived
> in Texas for several years and enjoyed one his
> longest periods of
> sobriety here).
>
> Some additional commentaries Bill made about the
> origin and derivation
> of the 12 Steps were written by him around the same
> period and would
> be useful in illustrating his thought processes on
> the Steps.
>
> Two particularly good readings are Bill's July 1953
> Grapevine article
> titled "A Fragment of History: Origin of the Twelve
> Steps" (re
> "Language of the Heart" pgs 195-202) and reaffirmed
> in his 1957 book
> "AA Comes of Age" pgs 160-164. "Pass It On" also has
> some great
> information - pgs 196-206.
>
> If you examine the version of the 6 Steps defined in
> Earl T's Big Book
> story "He Sold Himself Short" you'll see a very
> orthodox influence of
> the Oxford Group on the version of the 6 Steps used
> in Akron.
>
> The OG had a significant (but not exclusive)
> influence on the origin
> and formulation of the Steps (6 Steps and 12 Steps).
> Bill explicitly
> says so on pg 39 of "AA Comes of Age."
>
> Cheers
> Arthur
>
> ________________________________________
> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of secondles
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 5:31 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill Wilson's own words
> about the history
> of the AA "six steps"
>
> I have come across a transcript of a speech Bill
> gave in Texas in
> 1954, when he related the origin of the steps while
> he was
> developing the first concepts of the Big Book. He
> titled it: "HOW
> THE BOOK WAS PUT TOGETHER". His speech can be seen
> in an ADOBE PDF
> copy of the typed version.(See below). There are 17
> pdf pages of
> that speech, but the typed pages are 16. On page 10
> of the typed
> copy is the following: "So then came that night when
> we were up
> around about Chapter 5. As you know, I'd gone on
> about myself which
> was natural after all, and then the little
> introductory chapter and
> we delt with the agnostic and we described
> alcoholism but, boy, we
> finally got up to the point where we really had to
> say what the book
> was all about and how this deal works. As I told
> you, this was a
> six step program then..." Later he said: "And this
> six step program
> had two big gaps in between..." The entire speech
> can be seen on the
> web http://www.archivesinternational.org
> Click on the left link "Documents" and then scroll
> down to "HOW THE
> BOOK WAS PUT TOGETHER". This will take you to:
>
http://www.archivesinternational.org/AI/Documents/pdf/bigbookpt.pdf
> He went on to describe how these then
> became 12 Steps. For me, it seems that although
> Bill was certainly
> influenced by his former contacts with OG, his own
> formulation
> of "six-steps" was NOT just a copy of OG thinking or
> program.
>
> Les C.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> • Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.
>
> • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
> ________________________________________
>
>
>

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++++Message 2780. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s Last Message
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/24/2005 3:01:00 PM

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I have in front of me a sheet of paper with a common depiction of Bill W at
the top titled "Bill's Last Message." The message is seven paragraphs long
plus a "God bless."

I am interested, however, in the footnote which states, "Read by Lois at
the annual dinner given by the New York Intergroup Association in honor of
Bill's 36th anniversary - October 10, 1970."

A couple of things don't add up and I request input. Bill's sobriety date,
which I presume is what they are honoring, is generally given as December
11, 1934, so why are they having a dinner in October? Bill tells us in his
story in the Big Book that he drank on Armistice Day of 1934, which was
November 11. Ebby's visit is generally given to have happened between then
and the end of the month. Perhaps knowing in 1970 that Bill was terminally
ill, they had it early and he was too sick to come.

I note in the recently posted msg
"Significant A.A. October Dates" that this particular dinner is mentioned.

So my question doesn't have to do with Bill's sobriety date but with the
background of the dinner. When did it start? What was it to honor
specifically? Why is/was it in October?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 2781. . . . . . . . . . . . Nell Wing AA''s 1st archivist; Nell
and Marty Mann and also Lois''s Diary Update
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2005 9:22:00 AM

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Hi Ernie,and AAHL
I spoke with Nell's nephew and he didn't know anything about a feud or
anything like that
between Nell and Marty Mann. He explained that they knew each other. He went
on to explain that he was told by Nell that she considered Bill and Lois
"like her second Mother and Father." She spent many years with Lois after
Bill's
death; "they were the closest of friends."
He said that she told him "she did not try to pry into Bill and Lois's
personal affairs."
He explained further that "it wouldn't be in her nature to do so."" She
isn't that type of person."
Nell is happy and still smiling though confined to a wheelchair at the
present time.On her wall is an oil painting of the co founders as well as a
certificate from the Smithsonian declaring her as AA's First Archivist.
Nell was given Lois Wilson's diary as part of Lois's estate.As
administrator of her affairs, Nell's nephew entrusted it to the Stepping
Stones
Foundation. He told me it will not be reproduced as It contains personal
information.It precedes her first meeting with Bill.
It contains personal memories and letters.
I believe that the Wilson's gave enough of their lives to AA and that
their personal relationship should be just that.
The following is part of an e-mail I received from Bill W.(Nell's Nephew
and a double A member) this morning after he looked over this post.

"I will be celebrating my 17th anniversary in A. A this December. another
fact: Bill W. actually 12 stepped me in 1953 ( without me realizing what he
was doing) but it took me 35 more years before surrendering and coming into
the program. Nell was on my back and pushing me all those years."
Bill related to me that Nell made an excuse to stop by AA's
administrative office on a Saturday and Bill Wilson "just happened to be
there."
Naturally it was a pre-arranged meeting between Nell and her boss to 12 step
her
nephew who was home on leave from the military.They talked for several
hours.The
seed was planted.
Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike G.
Phila, Pa.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2782. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Lord''s Prayer, Or Not -
Part 1 of 2
From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2005 5:37:00 PM

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The Reform Jewish position on the use of the Lord's Prayer is opposed to its
use
by Jews:

The message in the AAHistoryLovers cited the following statement, in which
it is
argued that the prayer should NOT be regarded as a "Christian" prayer:

"Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian
document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition
that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched."
Bill W.

Against this statement, it must be pointed out that the "Lord" referred to
in
the name of the prayer is Jesus. It was his prayer, and it is printed in the
New
Testament of the Christian Bible.

Consider this excerpt from the Central Conference of American Rabbi's
website:
http://data.ccarnet.org/cgi-bin/respdisp.pl?file=171&year=carr
"Although its content is neutral and it does not contain any direct
reference to Christianity, its origin with Jesus and its strong Christian
overtones makes its use unacceptable to Jews. It would, therefore, be better
if Jews refrained from its recital even in a non-religious setting like
Alcoholics Anonymous. As it is recited at the conclusion of the meeting,
there is really no reason to participate. One can stand in silence, and I am
sure that this would be respected and understood."

This action is respected and understood by many but not all in a meeting.
And Jews are not the only non-Christians with a problem with this prayer.
I'm the service sponsor for a Hindi with the same distaste for this prayer.

Using Christian prayer to end meetings hereabouts is a clear example of
tyranny of the majority. AA's structure--designed by Bill--is designed to
prevent that.

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++++Message 2783. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1st edition big books
From: Keith Dunn . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/27/2005 2:18:00 PM

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Yes, there are dark blue 4ths along with green 4ths.
There are dark green 3rd's also. And dark blue 3rds, and light blue
3rds.
Red 2nds, too.
Works Pub bought leftovers from other book printings. So, cost was a
big determinant in why there were so many early colors. We got them
cheaper by purchasing production extras.
I hadn't heard the "combat soldiers" one for the 7th printing
rarity.
Here's a sample of what I've been told
-warehouse fire destroyed many
-sunken ship headed to Australia with 7th printings (WWII)
-There were not 5000 printed (seems very probable) due to size
restrictions Works Pub. was apparently outside of. Look at the
printing dates for the 7th and 8th printings. Seems improbable both
were of a 5000 production run. There is some letters originating out
of New York that suggests this also.
-The movie "The Lost Weekend." Generated tremendous demand for Big
Books by pre- Al-Anons who saw the film and ordered the book for
their loved ones who were not yet "sick and tired of being sick and
tired" and thus disgarded the book ( I have an old-old timer who
swears by this one, from his experience in twelve step calls in the
40's.)
The "relative value" of some of the different colors of the early
printings is a fairly new phenomenon. Seems to have originated, and
pushed, by a couple of specific big book brokers, to generate demand
and, of course, higher prices.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@y...>
wrote:
>
> Regarding the rarity of the 1st ed. 7th printing its because almost
> the entire printing was shipped overseas to the combat soldiers. Few
> of the books came back to the US. The following printing the 8th,
was
> miniturized because over a war induced paper shortage.
> -merton
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, bikergaryg@a... wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know why the first edition seventh printing 1945 is so
> rare?
> > I know 5000 where printed.
> > the myth I heard is most where sent overseas at that time and
where
> lost when
> > the supply ship was sunk they where on.
> > also
> > does anyone know the amount of different colored big book covers
and
> why
> > different colors where used.
> > myth or truth
> >
> > only 1500 of the 5000 first edition fourth printing 1943 where
green
> covers,
> > the rest blue?
> > the first edition third printing had some green covers also?
> > that ink was in short supply and they used what they had in stock?
> >
> > the rarer the book the more valuable it is.
> > but as we all know this program is priceless.
> > bikergaryg
> >
>

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++++Message 2784. . . . . . . . . . . . Powers of intergroup committees
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2005 4:06:00 PM

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What kind of powers (if any) does the committee which oversees an intergroup
office have over the autonomous AA groups in the geographical area served by
that intergroup office? What is the history of the development of the first
AA
"intergroups" and what are some of the historical documents and AA
publications
which speak to this issue?

Let me supply the context for this question. A friend in the AA fellowship
in
one of Indiana's largest cities has written me several emails, expressing
great
alarm over a development there. A small group has taken over the committee
which
runs the intergroup office.

First they delivered a brusque order to all the AA groups in that city and
the
surrounding county, telling them that they were no longer "allowed" to read
from
Twenty-Four Hours a Day (one of the traditional books in the historic AA
Heritage) during their meetings. The Delegate from that Area finally had to
come
in and tell the committee members that they did not have that power, and
furthermore, that there are now and obviously had never in the past been any
rules saying that AA groups could ONLY read from "conference approved
literature" in AA meetings.

Then a member of that small committee went to one of the judges in that
county
and informed him that the county courts were no longer going to be "allowed"
by
them to send people to AA meetings as court appointed attendees (in lieu of
jail
time, should they wish to take advantage of that opportunity). My friend
there
has mixed feelings on that issue, but is alarmed once again by a situation
in
which a small handful of people on an intergroup committee were attempting
to
make decisions for all of the AA groups in that city and the surrounding
county.
My friend feels strongly that this is the kind of matter which is up to each
autonomous AA group to decide for itself on the basis of a group conscience.

The most recent order coming out of this intergroup committee is a demand
that
all of the AA groups prepare lists of the names of all the people who regard
their AA group as their home group, so that this little intergroup committee
will then have a comprehensive list containing the names of all of the AA
members in that city and county. As my friend points out, that would mean
that
any outsider who obtained a copy of this list (my stealth or by carelessness
on
the part of one of the committee members) would have possession of the name
of
every single AA member in that city and county.

With respect to the central underlying issue, my understanding has always
been
that the committee which operates an intergroup office has no real power at
all
within the AA structure, which is made up of autonomous groups which are
organized into AREAS (not intergroups), which in turn elect Delegates who
are
sent to vote on matters involving AA in the U.S. and Canada as a whole. So
an
intergroup governing committee has no status whatever within the real
governing
structure of AA.

My understanding is that the committee which supervises an intergroup office
is
simply a cooperative venture, on the part of those autonomous AA groups
within
its geographical radius which wish to participate, in order to provide a
small
office where there will be someone who can answer the telephone and receive
mail, and sell literature and other AA related items to members who desire
to
purchase such.

I suppose that the intergroup office might also perhaps help at times in
putting
on cooperative ventures such as AA conferences and workshops, Fourth of July
picnics, New Years' dances, and things of that sort. However, in my own part
of
Indiana, things of that sort are in fact run (1) by specific self-appointed
voluntary committees set up for that purpose or (2) by Alano clubs. Or (3)
in
some instances -- as with our large annual Fourth of July picnic on Chic
L.'s
farm along the Elkhart river, and Judy and Larry M.'s annual Garbage Can
Stew on
their large wooded property in South Bend -- the AA function is simply set
up by
an individual who wishes to contribute his or her hospitality to the
fellowship.

In terms of the historic AA Heritage, I know that Richmond Walker, who wrote
Twenty-Four Hours a Day, was a key figure in setting up the first intergroup
in
Boston and (after he moved to Florida) the first intergroup in Daytona
Beach,
but I do not know whether even the Boston intergroup was the first such
intergroup in AA history. Nor do I know anything historically about how
these
two intergroups originally functioned, or what their powers were construed
to be
by the good old timers.

So the two issues to me are: (1) Within the historic AA Heritage, how did we
traditionally do this? This (as always) has to be the basis. How did the
good
old timers set up the first intergroups in early AA, and what kinds of
powers
did these intergroups originally have?

(2) What modern conference decisions and pamphlets issued by the New York
GSO
should we also look at for further advice and recommendations?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2785. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Lord''s Prayer: Jews,
Quakers, etc.
From: wilfried antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2005 7:00:00 PM

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A number of years ago, there was an article in the Grapevine by a member who
was
Jewish and he outlined the prayer was in accord with Jewish beliefs. part of
the
article is below.

"Along Spiritual lines AAGrapevine January 1997 - Judaism and the Lord's
Prayer
As a Jewish member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I've been concerned about the
fact that so many meetings end in the Lord's Prayer. While I was willing to
go
to any lengths to get - and stay - sober, I was worried about reciting a
prayer
that might in some way compromise my Jewish identity.

So I talked with my rabbi, who is knowledgeable not just about Jewish
affairs
but also about the Twelve Steps. He is Orthodox and the leader of an
extremely
large Jewish congregation.

He explained to me that there is nothing in the Lord's Prayer - or in all of
the Twelve Steps, for that matter - that in any way contradicts anything in
traditional Judaism.

So you see that as a believing Jew, when I'm saying the Lord's Prayer, I'm
saying a compilation of excerpts of prayers that are a part of the
traditional
Jewish prayer book. I hope that this makes things more comfortable for other
Jews."

wil

______________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:
In the guidelines originally set up for the AAHistoryLovers by Nancy Olson,
she
made it clear that we had to deal with controversial historical issues when
they
came up, and that we had to give the historical facts as they occurred
instead
of trying to "cover up" uncomfortable truths. Otherwise we were not being
honest with ourselves or with other people, which is the central requirement
for
success in the twelve step program (see the beginning of Chapter 5 in the
Big
Book, "How It Works").

But she also emphasized that we needed to avoid getting into the kind of
disputes which went on in many of the AA chat rooms, over what were simply
personal opinions, no matter how heartfelt. If we did not do that, we would
end
up swamped with messages attacking or supporting other people's opinions (we
have 1,416 members now from literally all over the globe). We would also
lose
our central purpose: the job of providing a place where people can get
accurate
and dependable factual information about matters of AA history.
Wilfried Antheunis' posting given above falls in that category, because it
cites
an article on this issue which was printed in the AA Grapevine.

But I'm just going to sum up some of the other messages that were sent in,
to
give everyone a feel for how strongly people feel on both sides of this
particular issue. At present there are AA people who will defend the use of
the
Lord's Prayer, but there are also many AA people (even in the U.S. and
Canada,
where the majority of AA's still come out of originally Christian
backgrounds)
who are very hostile to the use of this prayer.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, USA)
______________________________

From "jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

A REMINDER THAT THIS IS NOT JUST A JEWISH ISSUE. A historical reminder, from
Jenny, that there are Christian groups as well which take issue with saying
this
particular prayer.

MANY QUAKERS believe that the use of any mechanical set of ritual words is
not a
true prayer, and leads us astray into believing that "saying the right
words" is
real spirituality. Jenny writes:

"I am a Quaker in the 'unprogrammed' (i.e. silent) tradition and we have no
creed or set prayers. So ... I stay respectfully silent at AA meetings when
the
so-called Lord's prayer is used as part of the 'ritual.'"
______________________________

From "aapup_98" <aapup1@webtv.net>

A REMINDER THAT THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN ANTI-RELIGIOUS WING within
Alcoholics
Anonymous since the very beginning, and that the twelve steps were
deliberately
written to allow members to interpret the program in this way (the insertion
of
the two "as we understood Him" clauses shortly before the Big Book was sent
to
the printers).

"aapup_98" refers us to a Yahoo group with 39 members called
"aa_with_no_religion."

There are other such web groups, some of them much larger, but this group's
statement of position is a nice statement of the attitude taken by one type
of
modern American AA's who are hostile to any and all traditional religious
language:

"There are many other groups where you can talk about your higher power and
post/read prayers. This is a support group where we discuss ideas and our
recovery, within the context of AA, but without religion."
______________________________

There was a heavy response to Message 2782 posted by "Bob McK."
<bobnotgod2@att.net> : see
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2782 for Bob's
original message, where he cited a statement from Reform Jewish rabbis
recommending that Jews in AA meetings NOT say the Lord's Prayer.

PRO from Li Lightfoot <li_lightfoot@yahoo.com>

"Bravo Bob!"

PRO from "jeffyour" <jyour@jcu.edu>

"This hold-over from the Oxford Group is perhaps outdated at best and
exclusionary at worst."

CON from "Dave Stamp" <helen@brookings.net>

"If you don't like it Bob, don't use it .... I do not consider myself
Christian,
but I like the Lord's Prayer because most everyone knows it and that in
itself
is a big plus."
______________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR AGAIN !!! (Glenn Chesnut, South Bend, Indiana, USA)

I know how strongly many of us feel about this issue, but I think everyone
can
see from the selected responses above that if we start conducting lengthy
disputes on controversial questions of this sort within the AAHistoryLovers,
we
are going to be swamped with dozens of email messages being sent out to all
of
our email systems every day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. But I have
given you a sampling of the messages that have come in on this question,
because
I wanted everyone to be aware of the problems which arise, and in the hope
that
people will better understand why some messages end up not being posted in
the
AAHistoryLovers.

There are a large number of AA chat rooms and forums where people in the
fellowship enjoy disputes on various kinds of issues. I did a Google search
and
came up with hundreds of such sites. Just to give you an idea, here are a
few
of them from the first couple of pages which are conducted in English.
Although
I must warn our members that I have not checked out any of these personally,
and
can neither vouch for nor recommend any of these groups. You need to do your
own search and find a group that you like and would like to participate in.

Silkworth.net AAHistory Chat at http://silkworth.net/chat/aahistoryroom.html
http://www.chatmag.com/topics/health/aachat.html
http://www.alcoholicsanonymous.org/boards.html
http://www.aarecovery.com/chat.htm
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/n-chatslate.htm
http://www.unhooked.com/chat/Chat.html
http://www.12stepforums.net/chatroom1.html
List of chats and forums:
http://dmoz.org/Health/Addictions/Substance_Abuse/Alcoholism/Support_Groups/
Chat\

s_and_Forums/ [22]
http://www.aa-intergroup.org/directories/chat_english.html
http://www.solscape.com/chat/chat_a-m.html
http://www.insightrecovery.org/aa.htm

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++++Message 2786. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: 1st edition big books
From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2005 5:31:00 PM

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Hi folks: I have a big book with a purple front cover and a pink back
cover. Inside the pages are alternately printed upside down. It has some
terrible writing on the inside front cover of an alcoholic who was planning
his suicide after he finished reading the book. He didn't sign it. It is a
7th printing but is water-logged. My great uncle
says he found it washed ashore near Brazil during WW2.
It's in fairly good condition but doesn't have a dust cover.
My buddies say it's worth a lot of money. Anyone there
can you tell me how much?

Slippery Charlie.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Dunn" <werdunn_99@yahoo.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 2:18 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: 1st edition big books

> Yes, there are dark blue 4ths along with green 4ths.
> There are dark green 3rd's also. And dark blue 3rds, and light blue
> 3rds.
> Red 2nds, too.
> Works Pub bought leftovers from other book printings. So, cost was a
> big determinant in why there were so many early colors. We got them
> cheaper by purchasing production extras.
> I hadn't heard the "combat soldiers" one for the 7th printing
> rarity.
> Here's a sample of what I've been told
> -warehouse fire destroyed many
> -sunken ship headed to Australia with 7th printings (WWII)
> -There were not 5000 printed (seems very probable) due to size
> restrictions Works Pub. was apparently outside of. Look at the
> printing dates for the 7th and 8th printings. Seems improbable both
> were of a 5000 production run. There is some letters originating out
> of New York that suggests this also.
> -The movie "The Lost Weekend." Generated tremendous demand for Big
> Books by pre- Al-Anons who saw the film and ordered the book for
> their loved ones who were not yet "sick and tired of being sick and
> tired" and thus disgarded the book ( I have an old-old timer who
> swears by this one, from his experience in twelve step calls in the
> 40's.)
> The "relative value" of some of the different colors of the early
> printings is a fairly new phenomenon. Seems to have originated, and
> pushed, by a couple of specific big book brokers, to generate demand
> and, of course, higher prices.

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++++Message 2787. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early references to "Alcoholics
Anonymous" as a name
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2005 7:31:00 PM

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Having seen about 18 original "Multilith" copies of
the manuscript, I have yet to see any copy stamped
"Loan Copy." When both Nell and Frank were the
archivists I was allowed to review the archives'
copies of the Multilith and none of them were stamped
"loan copy." I reviewed a copy of the manuscript at
Stepping Stones and again, no "loan copy" stamp. When
I had Clarence's copy, again, no stamp. When I viewed
a manuscript from the estate of a deceased physician
who received it from the foundation, again, no stamp.

Has anyone in this group actually seen a copy with
such a stamp on it?

>
> Jan, 400 multilith copies of the book were
> distributed for evaluation.
> Bill W labeled the title of the manuscript as
> “Alcoholics Anonymous.”
> Bill credited NY member Joe W for getting the NY
> membership to favor
> the name “Alcoholics Anonymous” for the book. Each
> copy of the
> manuscript was stamped “Loan Copy” to protect the
> coming copyright.
> (AA Comes of Age pgs 165-166, Lois Remembers pg 197,
> Not God pgs 74,
> 319, Pass It On pg 200).

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++++Message 2788. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson''s own words about
the history of the AA "six steps"
From: tcumming . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2005 1:13:00 PM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@y...> wrote:
>
> I personally prefer the original literature and
> documents rather than rely upon recollections from
> 1954 and AA Comes of Age which I also find flawed in
> historical accuracy. Earl's 1950's recollections might
> also have been prompted by Bill's influence. Again,
> pre 1950's there appear to be no documented reference
> to any sort of 6 steps of the Oxford Group or 6 step
> program coming from either the alcoholics in NY or
> Akron.
>

Actually, the '6 Steps' weren't as codified as they may be coming
across in this thread. Remember it was a 'word of mouth program'
before the Big Book was written.
I was trying to find a few examples -mainly one in particular that
lists only 5 Steps, but I couldn't find it.

But perhaps these examples may satisfy your desire for pre-1950 examples:

from the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book story titled THE CAR
SMASHER, page 369:
"There are, it seems to me, four steps to be taken by one who is a
victim of alcoholism.
First: Have a real desire to quit.
Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)
Third: Ask for His ever present help.
Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help. "

[That mans story is also on pg 193 of 2nd & 3rd ed, but it was
rewritten and renamed to He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4
Steps.]

or look up the July 1948 Grapevine article, "N.A.A. Organized", to
find the 6 steps used by one of the first Alanon groups:
" Six Steps
1. We admitted that we were powerless to help the alcoholic.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore
us to a life of happiness.
3. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings.
4. Continue to take personal inventory, to keep defects of habit
from creeping back into our lives.
5. Became willing to make amends for the mistakes of the past and to
constantly be on the alert for any destructive habits, such as nagging
and criticizing.
6. We try to carry this message to alcoholic mates and to practice
these principles in all our affairs. "

To my way of thinking, at least, it seems more likely that these 6
Steps for Alanon came from something AA had already had, rather than
re-writing and condencening the then current 12 Steps of AA down to six.

------------
here is a list of other examples [most admittedly, after 1950] I did
find when searching for "Six Steps".
Perhaps, you made the same mistake as I did in starting-- in looking
for "Six" Steps [inadvertly ruling out posible examples of less than six].

Grapevines

July 1948, N.A.A. Organized ---6 steps used by early Alanon groups

Sept 1962, How The Twelve Steps Were Born by Bill W --- from AA Comes
Of Age

July 1980, Carrying the Message in 'Fifty-Five by Bill W. ---

Feb 1986, BY THE BOOK --- briefly quotes from the 6 Steps used in
"10th story in the original Big Book" [in my 1st ed, the 10th story is
Home Brewmeister, and does not mention 6 Steps... maybe he is
referring to the Original Manuscript's story section.]

-------------
Big Book

He Sold Himself Short - Earl T, pg 292 of 3rd ed [also in 2nd ed]

THE CAR SMASHER, Dick S's story in 1st edition of the Big Book on p.
364 --- actually only lists 4 Steps --- pg 193 of 2nd & 3rd ed, story
was rewritten and renamed to He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the
4 Steps.

--------------
other sources

Bill W's Talk to the Manhattan Group, NYC, 1955

Gresham's Law, by Tom Powers who was at GSO in the '50s
appeared in the July, 1976 issue of ³24 Magazine,² with the author
unknown.

Bill W's address to the National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism, 1960
--- brief mention of 6 steps in story of writing of our current 12 Steps

Box 459, October 2001, The Book Becomes a Reality --- another on the
writing of the 12 Steps

Pass It On, pg 197-

most of the above are either easily available to check, or in the
archives for the group

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++++Message 2789. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. describing Lois "mothering"
him?
From: IIdog . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2005 3:40:00 PM

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Hello History lovers,

Can you point me in the direction where I would find Bill talking about his
dependence on Lois as if she was his parent. I think he was speaking for
himself and Dr. Bob in regard to their wives. I thought it to be in As Bill
Sees It.

Thank you,

M.J.Brewton

IIdog@prodigy.net

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++++Message 2790. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill Wilson''s own words about
the history of the AA "six steps"
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2005 7:11:00 PM

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What surprises me (and I attempted to address it in my original reply)
is the growing frequency of postings with broad brush conclusions
premised on very narrow threads of obscure evidence.

AA literature contains 4 variations of the 6 Steps. They can be found
in: “Language of the Heart” (pg 200), “AA Comes of Age” (pg 160),
“Pass It On” (pg 197), the Big Book Pioneer story “He Sold Himself
Short” (pg 292 - 3rd ed, pg 263 - 4th ed) and the pamphlet “Three
Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W, Co-Founder of Alcoholics
Anonymous” (pg 8).

While none of these writings predate the 1950s, that criterion doesn't
serve to cast them as suspect in terms of authority. Excluding "Pass
It On" the remaining writings cited are first person testimonials: 3
of them are from Bill W and 1 from Earl T. The 6 Steps are
consistently described in the context of being practiced by alcoholics
(sometimes identified as the "alcoholic squad") not the non-alcoholic
Oxford Group members.

On the basis of his role in the matter, a first-person retrospective
by Bill W is authoritative barring some compelling evidence to the
contrary. Likewise for earl T. Earl T's (1955) Big Book story recounts
Dr Bob and him spending an afternoon going through the "Six Step
Program as it was at that time" (1938).

As for documents written in the 1930s vs 1950s, accuracy is really a
function of content not the calendar. While there are exceptions (such
as diaries) historical works are typically retrospective. The passage
of time does not inherently obscure facts and context. All too often
it does just the opposite and serves to enhance the revelation of
facts and context.

The book “Not God” (pg 331, end note 32) states “AA legend has it that
these 6 steps derived directly from the OG; this is simply wrong…”
However, the seminal influence of the OG on AA’s Steps (6 and 12) is
indisputable." "Not God" is not "pre 1950s" either but I believe it
sums up the matter nicely and continues to function as a remarkable
and substantive recording of AA history.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2791. . . . . . . . . . . . Bylaws for early Mineapolis A.A.
groups/Alano club
From: kenat2218 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2005 7:49:00 PM

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This is a retyping of a copy of a document from the Alano Society of
Minneapolis, Inc. The
original Squad 15, likely started between 1944-46. If this is the current
group
still meeting
there, it may be among the longest lasting groups at the Alano.
The term "Squad" is utilized in the Upper Midwest for individual Groups, the
Alano was
originally known as the Minneapolis Group, made up of Squads that were
numbered
beginning with number 1 for a Group made up of Pat Cronin among others.

PAGE 1

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
FOUNDERS GROUP
Squad 15

BY-LAWS

1. No regular squad meetings will be held other than at 2218 First Avenue
South,
Minneapolis, Minnesota.

2. Squad 15 will never accept out of town meetings on regular meeting night.

3. Squad 15 will hold all meetings as closed meetings, for alcoholics only,
until further
notice. (A) Amended as in No. 15. (B) Amended as in No. 22

4. To be elected to any office in Squad 15, a member must have at least six
(6)
months
continuous sobriety and be a pledging member of Alano Society. (A) Amended
as in
No.
12.

5. The officers of Squad 15 will be a Leader, Co-Leader, Secretary, and
Treasurer, and
will be elected by secret ballot.

6. Election of Squad Officers will be held at the first meeting in January
and
July of each
year.

7. Any officer of Squad 15 who has a "slip" will be automatically removed
from
office at
once, and a special election will be held to replace him.

8. Any money in the Squad Fund exceeding $50 (Fifty Dollars) will be turned
over
to
Alano Society at the end of the month. (A) Amended as in No. 13.

9. Any two duly elected officers of Squad 15 may approve expenditures from
the
Squad
Fund at any time necessary.

PAGE 2
10. Beginning July 1, 1958 the sum of $3 (Three Dollars) will be contributed
to
the Ladies
Home Committee each month. (A) Amended as in No. 14. (B) Amended as in No.
20.

11. To be a member of Squad 15 it is not necessary to be a member of the
Alano
Society.

12. To be elected a Squad Leader a member must have at least six (6) months
sobriety,
and to be elected to treasurer or secretary a member must have at least
three
months
sobriety and also any prospective officer must be pledging to Alano Society
of
Minneapolis. (A) Amendment to By-Law No. 4 (1-2-59).

13. A motion was made and carried to scratch By-Law No. 8 until further
notice.
(2-16-62).

14. Squad 15 will pay $1 (One Dollar) per month to the Ladies Home Committee
instead
of $3 per month (1-1-62). (A) Amended as in No. 20.

15. A motion to hold an open meeting must be made and seconded and approved
by a
majority of those members present at any regular meeting at least a week
prior
to such a
meeting.

16. October 28, 1966 the Squad approved the following addition to the
By-Laws:
That a
member of Squad 15 who has attained his first year of continuous sobriety
while
in Squad
15, shall be entitled at Squad expense, to one ticket to the Founder's Day
Banquet.

17. April 7, 1967 Amendment: A motion was made and carried that when a
member of
Squad 15 has completed 4 classes and does not have a 24 hour book, the Squad
will buy
him one.

18. April 7, 1967 Amendment: A motion was made and carried that when a
member
reaches his first anniversary and each 5th year thereafter, the squad will
buy
him a book or
a record of his choice for around five dollars.

PAGE 3
19. January 5, 1968 Amendment: A motion was made and carried that to be
eligible
to
vote in By-Law 6, you must be a pledging member of Squad 15.

20. February 11, 1972 Amendment: By-Law 10 and By-Law 14 are hereby removed
from
the By-Laws.

21. February 11, 1972 Amendment: The Squad Treasury will hereafter furnish
anniversary
pins and cards.

22. January 10, 1975 Amendment: All regular Squad 15 meetings will be closed
meetings
for men only.
END

NOTES
-3 All Groups/Squads/Meetings at the Alano Society are either Open or
Closed,
but all
are A.A. meetings (except one Al-Anon meeting). No N.A., C.A., etc.

-5 It is a requirement of the Alano Society that Squad Officers be pledge
paying
members
of the Alano Society, as stated in the Alano By-Laws.

-6 While this appears to be an excellent plan for rotation and may have been
followed by
this Squad, it has not been true of all Groups that meet here.

-7 Loss of sobriety makes a member a non-member or again a "prospective"
member
and therefore ineligible to hold office until a set period of sobriety and
pledge paying
status are again achieved.

-8 Several Groups pay their rent and simply include all contributions to the
Alano Society
without regard to the Service entities of A.A.

-10 The Ladies Home Committee was a group of wives, girlfriends and others
who
organized social activities, ran the kitchen and cleaned the mansion.

-11 This is the case in almost all of the Groups at the Alano. An A.A.
member
can be on
the Group phone list without being a pledge paying member of the Alano.

-17 Reference here is to the book by Richmond Walker, "Twenty-Four Hours A
Day."

-18 The book or record were recovery related, prior to the advent of
cassette
tapes.

-19 The group must have allowed a lawyer to join.

-20 Pins have been replaced at the Alano by medallions.

Ken Ring, Alano Archivist/Historian
Squad 27 Early Risers
Minneapolis

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++++Message 2792. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant November dates in AA
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2005 3:31:00 PM

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Nov 1934 - Ebby T. carries message to Bill.
Nov 1936 - Fitz M leaves Towns Hospital to become 'AA #3 in NY',
with Bill W and Hank P.
Nov 1937 - Bill and Dr. Bob compare notes in Akron. Count forty
cases staying sober. Meeting of the Akron Group to consider Bill's
ideas for how to expand the movement ... a book, AA hospitals, paid
missionaries. Passed by a majority of 2.
Nov/Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford
Group. Meetings moved from T Henry & Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and
other members homes.
Nov 1941 - "First Mass AA Meeting" in Oklahoma City, 8 present, 1
was drunk.
Nov 1945 - Bill's article called 'Those Goof Balls' published in
Grapevine.
Nov 1986 - Big Book published in paperback.
Nov 1, 1947 - 1st AA Group in Anchorage, Alaska.
Nov 1, 1963 - Reverend Sam Shoemaker dies.
Nov 3, 2001 - J P Miller who wrote screenplay for "The Days of Wine
and Roses" died.
Nov 9, 1966 - President Johnson appoints Marty M to the 1st National
Advisory Committee on Alcoholism.
Nov 10, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Minneapolis.
Nov 10, 2001 - 1st of 400,000 4th Edition Big Books arrives in the
mail.
Nov 11, 1934 - Armistice Day; Bill started drinking after dry spell,
beginning of Bill's last drunk.
Nov 12, 1940 - 1st AA meeting is held in Boston.
Nov 13, 1939 - Bill wants to go to work at Towns Hsp, NY drunks want
him to stay on as head of the movement.
Nov 14, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation publishes 1st AA Bulletin.
Nov 15, 1949 - Bill W suggests that groups devote Thanksgiving week
to dicussions of the 12 Traditions.
Nov 16, 1950 - Dr. Bob died.
Nov 18, 1946 - 1st Dublin Ireland group met.
Nov 21, 1939 - AA's in San Francisco hold 1st California AA meeting
in the Clift Hotel.
Nov 21, 1952 - Willard Richardson, past Treasurer/Chairman of
Alcoholic Foundation, dies.
Nov 26, 1895 - Bill W born in East Dorsett, VT.
Nov 26, 1939 - Dilworth Lupton gave sermon "Mr. X and Alcoholics
Anonymous". Became one of first pamphlets on AA.
Nov 28, 1939 - Hank P writes Bill advocating autonomy for all AA
groups.
Nov 28, 1943 - Bill guest speaker San Quentin Penitentiary.
(sometimes dated Dec 2, 1943)

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++++Message 2793. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st edition big book colors
From: kentedavis@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2005 3:14:00 PM

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Colors of the first editions.

The 6th - 16th printings of the first edition all had the same dark blue
color.

The first 5 printings had different colors. The following are those that I
have seen. Those in (parenthesis) I currently own, the rest I have held in
my
hand so can verify they exist.

If anyone knows about any other colors that they can verify

First Editions

1st printing - (red)
2nd printing- dark tiel blue, (royal blue), (black)
3rd printing- (light blue), dark blue, (green)
4th printing- light blue, (dark blue), (green)
5th printing- (light blue), dark blue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2794. . . . . . . . . . . . Is the 12 x 12 online?
From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2005 12:58:00 PM

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There seem to be several sites where one can go to and read the Big Book
online, but does anyone know where online one could go to read the 12x12?
Thanks,
Pete Tippett

---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

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++++Message 2795. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early references to "Alcoholics
Anonymous" as a name
From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2005 3:47:00 PM

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Subject: absence of any stamps saying "loan copy"

I have seen two original "Multilith" copies - Jim Burwell's copy and
the copy auctioned off a year or so ago in New York City (the one
that was used to compile ALL of the suggestions made for changes to
the original manuscript before the printing of the Big Book in April
of 1939).

NO "Loan Copy" stamps on either of them.

Old Bill

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@y...> wrote:
>
> Having seen about 18 original "Multilith" copies of
> the manuscript, I have yet to see any copy stamped
> "Loan Copy." When both Nell and Frank were the
> archivists I was allowed to review the archives'
> copies of the Multilith and none of them were stamped
> "loan copy." I reviewed a copy of the manuscript at
> Stepping Stones and again, no "loan copy" stamp. When
> I had Clarence's copy, again, no stamp. When I viewed
> a manuscript from the estate of a deceased physician
> who received it from the foundation, again, no stamp.
>
> Has anyone in this group actually seen a copy with
> such a stamp on it?
>
> >
> > Jan, 400 multilith copies of the book were
> > distributed for evaluation.
> > Bill W labeled the title of the manuscript as
> > "Alcoholics Anonymous."
> > Bill credited NY member Joe W for getting the NY
> > membership to favor
> > the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" for the book. Each
> > copy of the
> > manuscript was stamped "Loan Copy" to protect the
> > coming copyright.
> > (AA Comes of Age pgs 165-166, Lois Remembers pg 197,
> > Not God pgs 74,
> > 319, Pass It On pg 200).
>

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++++Message 2796. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Lord''s Prayer: Jews,
Quakers, etc.
From: Alex H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2005 5:49:00 PM

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L-rd's Prayer similar to the Jewish prayer Aveinu Malkeinu = "Our Father,
our
King"

> A number of years ago, there was an article in the Grapevine by a
> member who was Jewish and he outlined the prayer was in accord
> with Jewish beliefs. part of the article is below.

Yes. The L-rd's Prayer follows a formula similar to the Aveinu
Malkeinu (Our Father, Our King).

I am an Orthodox Jewish alcoholic and I checked out The L-rd's
Prayer and also the Serenity Prayer, the Prayer of St. Francis
of Assisi (found in the 12 and 12) and the 3rd step prayer and
7th step prayer. My rabbi found nothing contrary to traditional
Jewish observance in these prayers.

It is my opinion that the AA program is reasonably within reach
of any religious Jew. Chabad/Lubuvitch runs a alcohol recovery
program that is as good as any hospital recovery program. (See
the many, many books by Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski).

As I understand the history of AA, it had roots in the Oxford
Group. That was a group of Christians attempting to reproduce
1st century Christianity. Obviously the 1st century was the time
when Christianity was the most like Judaism.

Alex H.

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++++Message 2797. . . . . . . . . . . . Who authored Dr. Bob and the Good
Oldtimers?
From: george brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2005 11:41:00 PM

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I am now reading "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers."

Who authored that book??? It has a very different style from "Pass It On."

thanks,
george
___________________________

From the moderator:

I would like to add to George's question. Can anyone in the AAHistoryLovers
group give us the history of how the decision was made to write an official
AA
biography of Dr. Bob, and how that decision was implemented and carried out?

Mel B., who is a member of our group, played a major role in writing "Pass
It
On," the official AA biography of Bill W., but I have never heard or read
anything about how the biography of Dr. Bob was put together.

To put this in historical context, Dr. Bob died in November 1950, not long
after
the First International Convention in Cleveland.

The second edition of the Big Book, with a new set of stories at the end,
came
out five years later, in 1955, at the time of the Second International
Convention in St. Louis.

In terms of officially sponsored works on AA history, "Alcoholics Anonymous
Comes of Age," which contains a good deal of historical material (mostly
from
Bill W.'s point of view) was published shortly after that, in 1957.

Bill W. died on January 24, 1971.

"Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was published nine years later, in 1980.

"Pass It On" (the Bill W. biography) was published four years after that, in
1984.

Thanks for your help,

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, USA)

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++++Message 2799. . . . . . . . . . . . Loan copy rubber-stamped on one I
have seen
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2005 11:28:00 AM

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The one that Warren C. lent me in Cleveland in 1977 had "loan copy"
rubber-stamped on the cover page; however, I have no idea who stamped
it. (I am pretty sure it was not Warren himself.)

ernie kurtz

Mitchell K. wrote:

> Having seen about 18 original "Multilith" copies of
> the manuscript, I have yet to see any copy stamped
> "Loan Copy." When both Nell and Frank were the
> archivists I was allowed to review the archives'
> copies of the Multilith and none of them were stamped
> "loan copy." I reviewed a copy of the manuscript at
> Stepping Stones and again, no "loan copy" stamp. When
> I had Clarence's copy, again, no stamp. When I viewed
> a manuscript from the estate of a deceased physician
> who received it from the foundation, again, no stamp.
>
> Has anyone in this group actually seen a copy with
> such a stamp on it?
>
> >
> > Jan, 400 multilith copies of the book were
> > distributed for evaluation.
> > Bill W labeled the title of the manuscript as
> > “Alcoholics Anonymous.”
> > Bill credited NY member Joe W for getting the NY
> > membership to favor
> > the name “Alcoholics Anonymous” for the book. Each
> > copy of the
> > manuscript was stamped “Loan Copy” to protect the
> > coming copyright.
> > (AA Comes of Age pgs 165-166, Lois Remembers pg 197,
> > Not God pgs 74,
> > 319, Pass It On pg 200).

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++++Message 2800. . . . . . . . . . . . Experience Strength and Hope - the
Phrase
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/4/2005 12:30:00 AM

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Had the phrase Experience, Strength, and Hope been used
anywhere prior to publication of the A.A. Preamble in
the AA Grapevine? The only place it appears in the
3rd Edition of the Big Book is page xxii and that was
written after publication of the Preamble.

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++++Message 2801. . . . . . . . . . . . Delete Message 2798 about the 12 &
12
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2005 7:46:00 PM

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The 12 & 12 is copyrighted by the A.A. Grapevine and by Alcoholics Anonymous
Publishing (now known as AA World Services), and it is considered a
copyright
violation to put the full text of a copyrighted work online without
permission
from the copyright holder.

Message 2798 from the AAHistoryLovers should therefore be deleted since it
refers to a website where the text of the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
has
been made available online.

Message 2798 has also been removed from the permanent Message Board to
prevent
its further propagation, with my apologies to the Grapevine and AAWS.

I want to thank "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com> who just emailed me and
pointed out that we should not be directing people to that website. I should
have realized that myself, and apologize again for letting that message slip
by
me.

For the good of AA as a whole, it is important that we keep the General
Service
Office in New York City in existence as a fully functioning and vital
resource.
Paying all the royalties which are legally due on the copyrighted materials
which they publish is one of the ways in which everyone in the fellowship
can
quietly help support the GSO. And contrariwise, trying to circumvent the
payment
of royalties which the GSO should otherwise receive, is the kind of action
which
will weaken the GSO and do harm to AA's mission to help alcoholics all over
the
world.

Therefore, people who wish to do searches for particular words and phrases
in
the 12 & 12 should instead purchase the 3.5 inch floppy disk which Steve F.
refers to in the immediately following message (Message 2802), since this is
the
version which is sold by AAWS. That is the proper route to go.

Glenn C., Moderator (South Bend, Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2802. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is the 12 x 12 online?
From: Steve F. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2005 4:46:00 PM

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Alcoholics Anonymous World Services sells a 12&12 in help-text document
format,
with search-by-key-word functionality. It came on 3.5" floppy, and is pretty
simple, but helpful if you're looking for given text. The important thing is
to
remember that it searches by document (e.g., chapter) and then by keyword
within
that. That's the only searchable 12&12 product I've found - all the rest are
simply text-files.

Steve Flower
Chicago, IL

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++++Message 2803. . . . . . . . . . . . Tiebout is pronounced TEE-boh
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2005 6:02:00 PM

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From Sally Brown who is the expert on Marty Mann: Dr. Harry Tiebout's last
name
was pronounced TEE boh, to rhyme with "we go."

TEE as in cup of "tea," honey "bee," lock and "key," have mercy on "me."

BOH as in "bow" and arrow, friend or "foe," "go" with the "flow," biscuit
"dough."

And if anyone thinks that English spelling has anything to do with
pronunciation, try to figure out why there are four or five different ways
to
spell both of those vowel sounds (grin) !!!

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SALLY BROWN:

Sally is the expert on Tiebout. One of the very best books on AA history
published in the last few years is Sally Brown and David R. Brown, "A
Biography
of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous," Hazelden, 2001.
The
story of how Marty got together with Dr. Tiebout is as follows:

Marty was admitted to Blythewood sanitarium at the end of June 1938. Harry
Tiebout, M.D., was the director of the sanitarium. In early 1939, one of
those
pre-publication manuscripts of the Big Book was sent to him (see Sally and
David
Brown's book pp. 94-97 and 103-104). Although Dr. Tiebout was at home in bed
with a very bad cold, he was so impressed by what he was reading, that he
had
them bring Marty over to see him. Lying in his bed, he handed her the
manuscript
and ordered her to start reading it and then come to him to talk about it
after
she had finished reading each section.

It was this multilithed manuscript of the Big Book which Marty finally saw
lying
open on her bed with the raised black letters spelling out "WE CANNOT LIVE
WITH
ANGER" (pp. 107-108 in Sally and David Brown's book and p. 206 in "Women
Suffer
Too" in the 4th edition of the Big Book).

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Email to me from: "Sally Brown" rev.sally@worldnet.att.net Date: Tue, 8 Nov
2005

Hi, Glenn - I just replayed one of the 50+ Marty Mann tapes we accumulated
in
our research for her biography. Her pronunciation of Harry Tiebout's name is
definitely "Tee-bo." If anybody would know, it's Marty. He was her
psychiatrist
from July 1938. A few months later he learned about AA and was responsible
for
getting Marty connected with that infant organization in NYC. As time went
on,
Tiebout also became her close friend and colleague until he died in 1966.

Marty mentions Tiebout by name on a number of our tapes. This particular
reference is an extended interview of Marty by George Gordon for the AA
archives, July 13, 1976.

Have a happy Thanksgiving! Sally

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FOR FURTHER CORROBORATION:

From: "Ernest Kurtz" kurtzern@umich.edu

In many conversations with Nell Wing, she always pronounced it "Tee'-beau."

ernie kurtz

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From "Mel Barger" melb@accesstoledo.com

Mel played a major role in writing the Bill W. biography "Pass It On." He
got
sober himself in 1950 and (especially while researching that book) talked
with a
large number of the original AA people.

He says, "I've always thought the Tiebout name should be pronounced TEE-BOW,
with the emphasis on the first syllable."

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From Glenn Chesnut:

I checked last night with an old timer named Larry W., who is a
psychotherapist
(so that he has always been very interested in Tiebout) and who had Ernie
Gerig
(Ernie G. the second of Toledo) as his sponsor, so that he knows a good deal
about early Akron AA.

Larry says that Ernie G. and the other Akron good old timers always
pronounced
the doctor's name as TEE-boh, with a heavy accent on the first syllable.

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From: "Cora Finch" corafinch@yahoo.com

Harry Tiebout Jr., a philosophy professor at the University of Illinois, was
a
friend of my parents and his son was a friend of my brother. We attended the
same church. The only pronunciation I ever heard was tea- (as in the
beverage),
-bow (as in bow and arrow).

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P.S. It's not helpful to just tell people that Tiebout's name was pronounced
TEE-bow, because in English the word bow is pronounced in two different ways
depending on its meaning: "bow and arrow" (where bow rhymes with go and hoe
and
Beau and sew) as opposed to "the bow of a ship" (where bow is pronounced so
as
to rhyme with how, cow, now, bough, and thou).

Once again an example of the way English spelling and pronunciation drives
non-English speakers crazy.

I should add however that one reason for what seems like an odd
pronunciation of
Tiebout's name is that it is a Dutch surname, where Dutch has its own
pronunciation rules. I have read that Tiebout is the Dutch form of the old
name
Theobald, a name which I remember shows up as a common first name in certain
medieval manuscripts.

Glenn Chesnut, Moderator (South Bend, Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2804. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Powers of intergroup committees
From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2005 8:06:00 PM

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From James B. (Hoffman Estates, IL) and Marion R. (Indianapolis)

(1) FROM JAMES B.

First, let me say that ther are two sets of GUIDELINES which address two
points in your email:
1) A.A. Guidelines - Central or Intergroup Offices - to quote from it
- "Service centers usually have no authority on their own account; they
derive it from the participating groups
2) A.A. Guidelines - Cooperating with Court, D.W.I. and Similar
programs - from the title it states 'Cooperating'

One obvious question is whether you are a lone dissenter or whether a
majority of the AAs agree with your position or the position be
expressed by the Central office.

Regardless, what authority do they have to force any group to provide a
list of members (of which I would have a problem if any group I was a
member of provided any list outside of the normal phone list at the
meeting - personal opinion).

Also, remember that each group is autonomous and can make their own
decisions as long as it does not affect any other AA group or the
Central Office. The groups in your area can stop supporting the
Intergroup Office if they like. This would have one heck of an impact
on their ability to survive.

Just a few thoughts, although I am not certain if this is related to
history per se.

Jim

James Bliss
Hoffman Estates, IL

_______________________________________

(2) FROM MARION R.

MarionORedstone@aol.com Date: Wed Nov 2, 2005
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Powers of intergroup committees

Omigosh! Self will run riot. I have only 20 years experience here in Indy,
but
that kind of activity would make the intergroup run out of money in about 3
months or whatever their prudent reserve is. The power is in the purse. The
groups are autonomous except as to matters which affect AA as a whole. Area
and
GSO could be helpful, but my experience is that the most you will get is a
"tut
tut."

Marion R.
Indianapolis, Indiana

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++++Message 2805. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Powers of intergroup committees
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2005 1:07:00 PM

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Hi Glenn

Well never a dull moment in AA! (At least not for very long).

If only our Traditions would encourage it (they don't) what a
magnificent "reality TV" show or soap opera ("As AA Turns") our
beloved Fellowship would make (Rule #62).

Recently there was some discussion in the AAHL forum about “bylaws.”
The Central Office situation described in your posting (while
regrettable) is a prime example why “bylaws” or other such written
guidelines, can serve a very useful, sometimes essential, purpose (re
Concepts 1, 10 and 12).

It seems so difficult to inform members that, if AA's principles are
practiced spiritually (not legalistically or authoritatively) AA can
then be one of the few genuine examples of a “democracy” in action.
Authority derives from the collective and God-given informed group
conscience of the members and groups, not from individual or
unilateral initiative of a small handful of self-appointed
"reformers." “Our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not
govern” - it's worth repeating "they do not govern.”

Attitude and mind-set make all the difference on whether the Steps,
Traditions and Concepts (AA's 3 Legacies) get practiced spiritually or
imperiously (or constructively vs. destructively). God help us when
members appoint themselves on a mission to save the Fellowship from
itself (according to their individual vision of what should or
shouldn't be done). This type of divisive and destructive action also
seems to have found its way into the internet (an instant global
platform and soap box) where various AA members (or self-appointed
critics) act as if they uniquely possess special insights on how
things really should be done in and by AA and others don't. It's the
deadly sin of pride at its worst (destructive pride masquerading as
the pursuit of a noble cause).

In Concept 12 (the Warrantees), remove the word “Conference” and
replace it with “Central Office” (or committee, group, district, area,
region, GSO or board) and you have the spiritual guidance under which
a Central Office (or any other service entity) should function.

A helpful document to set the tone of what a Central Office should be
(or do) is the (yellow sheet) AA Guidelines “Central or Intergroup
Offices” (pub # MG 02). The AA service manual also has a section on
the General Service Structure “Working with Local Intergroups and
Central Offices.” It defines typical Central Office service functions.
Download the PDF file versions of the Guidelines and Service Manual
from AA.org and distribute them (or pages from them) to members. The
free Adobe Reader search function makes it very easy to find specific
topics of interest in the PDF files by keyword (you can also download
"The AA Group" pamphlet).

In regards to the relationship of the General Service Structure
(districts, areas, regions, GSOs, boards and Conferences) and Central
Offices, the Central Offices, like groups, function with autonomy. The
relationship between the two service structures is cooperative.
Sometimes an area will have an "Intergroup Liaison" to keep the
cooperative communications flowing. Central Office managers can also
be invited to Assemblies to report on the activities of the office(s)
and their needs and concerns.

Conference decisions are “advisory actions” not legal dictates or
mandates. As I understand it "power” in AA is supposed to be exercised
by the force of personal example and commitment to, and practice of,
the principles of all 3 Legacies, not by a title, a committee name, a
publication or whatever. There is only one “power” (or “ultimate
authority”) in AA. It's a “loving God” permitted to work through the
collective group conscience (re Tradition 2 and Concept 1). That
"loving God" can very easily be obstructed, or prevented, from doing
so depending upon the mind-set and actions of the participants in the
formulation of the group conscience.

A Central Office Steering Committee is supposed to be elected by, and
be directly responsible to, the groups serviced by the Central Office
(re the long form of Tradition 9). The groups vest the Steering
Committee (and office manager) with those responsibilities and
authority the groups deem appropriate (not the other way around). This
is often accomplished through written bylaws or “policies and
procedures” or some other written form to unambiguously avoid leaving
the matter up to the creative (and in this case over-zealous)
imagination and interpretation of individual members.

The Central Office Steering Committee is supposed to go the groups
(through business meetings of the group-elected Central Office
Representatives and/or sometimes GSRs) for decisions on important
matters (not to make the decisions for the groups). Someone needs to
get the message to the renegade Central Office committee that a
Central Office “serves” it doesn’t “supervise.” The groups tell
the
Central Office what to do, not the reverse.

My personal recommendation would be to continue seeking assistance
from the Area Delegate for guidance (this definitely is a serious
Traditions issue). Get the voices of principle and reason involved.
Also seek the assistance of DCMs, group GSRs plus group Central Office
Rep’s to call for a special meeting to resolve the matter. Members and
groups can write letters to the Central Office committee expressing
their concerns, disapproval or whatever (with information copies sent
to the Delegate). When a small group of members indulges in renegade
tactics, it usually takes an alternative group of members to obtain
resolution of the issue and bring sanity and clarity to the matter.

While this renegade committee is likely be quite serious (and
sanctimonious) about its unilateral actions, someone needs to inform
the committee that no one is elected, appointed or assigned to speak
for AA. That kind of authority is derived from informed group
conscience only. The matter regarding court referrals is one for each
group to decide, not one for the Central Office to decide for the
groups (the inverted service triangle applies to Central Offices just
the same as it applies to the General Service Structure).

Each group can determine for itself whether it uses the 24 Hour book,
the "Little Red Book" or whatever. "Conference-approved" does not mean
the Conference is against any piece of literature that is not
Conference-approved (more on this can be provided if desired). While I
am not in favor of having these items in the group (one exception can
easily open the door to many exceptions) it is not my place to impose
my will on anyone else. I am a single voice and vote in a group
conscience decision.

To help offset and repair damage done by misinforming the judge(s),
group GSRs, CORs or Group Chairpersons can write to the judge(s) (with
permission from the group of course) that the individual(s) going
around have no authority to act for their specific group or AA as a
whole, and are taking it upon themselves to do so without permission
of the group(s).

The membership lists (and other actions) are serious violations of the
spirit and substance of the Traditions in a number of matters
(anonymity, group autonomy, service committees being directly
responsible to those they serve, etc., etc.). If all else fails, the
cure of last resort is to exercise “the power of the purse” and ask
groups to stop making donations to, or purchasing items from, the
Central Office until it gets back to providing essential services
instead of egregious mandates. Have the groups write directly to the
Central Office stating that they are withholding donations and
purchases until such time as the office returns to service instead of
trying to exercise supervision.

You might also write to the GSO Group Services desk to ask for an
"it's been our experience that ..." type of letter to help add clarity
and sanity to the matter. Scan it and distribute it by email. And even
ask for the support of other Central Offices in the area to provide
information on how they conduct themselves (i.e. information based on
experience and example).

The examples you cite of “fellowship activities” such as picnics,
founder’s day events, open houses, etc. are well within the services
that can be provided, or coordinated, by a Central Office assuming
that the groups serviced by, and supporting, the Central Office are in
agreement.

Typical services of Central Offices consist of providing 24-hour phone
contact for 12th Step calls, "bridging the gap" assistance for
prospects/members leaving treatment/correction facilities, stocking
literature, tapes and other items for sale to the groups, meeting
directories, public information web sites, plus any other activities
that help carry the message to the alcoholic who is still suffering
(that's their primary purpose as well as everybody else's).

Good luck - I really hope the matter gets resolved in a positive
manner (via the Rule #62 route). After the dust has settled,
situations like this can be put to a positive use by holding it up as
an example of what not to do (most of the Traditions were formed this
way). It might also make one heck of a good Grapevine article.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2806. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1st edition big books
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/4/2005 9:00:00 PM

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Hi Tommy,

Have you seen and 8th printing yet? They are even smaller than the 6th
and 7th. Quite a bit smaller.

I have no written substantiation regarding the overseas shipment of
the 7th printing. It came from many sources when I was into collecting
them. Mostly other AA collectors, historians and book dealers. So seek
the original source documentation (but first look in Ernie's Not God
footnotes).

This is the type of issue where GSO might be responsive to allowing
someone to view the archival material. It has a narrow well defined
time parameter and the information is probably in the form of a
reciept. I viewed the reciepts for the book up to 1942 which is where
my research parameter was designed to end. They would probably be on
the microfilm for your years in question. It seems to be worthy of the
time spent. There's alot more AA History out there.

-merton

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@c...>
wrote:
>
> At 00:16 10/21/2005 , mertonmm3 wrote:
>
> >Regarding the rarity of the 1st ed. 7th printing its because almost
> >the entire printing was shipped overseas to the combat soldiers. Few
> >of the books came back to the US. The following printing the 8th, was
> >miniturized because over a war induced paper shortage.
> >-merton
>
> I'm not sure what Merton means by "miniaturized" but the last of the
larger
> editions, ~6.25x9.25x2" was the 5th printing of January 1944.
>
> This 6th printing was more the size of the current hard-bound
> ~5.75x8.5x1.25". My 11th printing is noticeably thinner than the
> subsequent editions.
>
> I note that the 8th was printed only a month behind the 7th, in
February
> 1944, perhaps lending credence to the notion that the 7th was
intended for
> the troops. Is there any historical evidence for this notion or is
it one
> of the A.A. urban legends?
>
> Tommy H in Baton Rouge
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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++++Message 2807. . . . . . . . . . . . Member in good standing
From: azbigbook . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/5/2005 2:54:00 AM

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Dear History lovers,

Has anyone heard the term "a member in good standing,"
where it applies to membership in Alcoholics Anonymous?
Where does this come from or did someone make it up?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

In Service with Gratitude

Chuck P

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++++Message 2808. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who authored Dr. Bob and the
Good Oldtimers?
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2005 5:20:00 PM

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Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Who authored Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers?

From : Unpublished manuscript of AA World History (1985) by Bob P. Chapter
12 Literature

In the last decade of A.A.'s first 50 years, two handsome historical
biographies of its co-founders were added to its major hardcover books. The
need for such information was discussed many times in the early 70's .
especially as the early members who had known Dr. Bob and Bill were dying
off. Then, at the World Service Meeting in New York in 1976, delegates from
overseas requested strongly that priority be given to a biography of Dr.
Bob, as they felt they knew too little about him. Partly because of that
impetus, the 1977 Conference authorized the joint-biography project to go
ahead.

The task was assigned to Niles P., a past trustee and past assistant
general manager of G.S.O. under Bob H. Niles quickly exhausted the material
in the archives and then undertook interviews on tape with relatives,
friends and acquaintances of Dr. Bob and pioneer members of Midwestern A.A.
The locals of these interviews included not only Ohio and Dr. Bob's native
Vermont, but California, the D.C. area, Florida, North Carolina, New York
and Texas (where he spent time with Dr. Bob's son.) In the course of the
research, the book naturally expanded from biographical limits into a memoir
of early A.A. in the Midwest. Niles' enormous and sensitive job of
digesting, organizing and assembling the material from the tapes was
supplemented by prodigious editing by Janet C. Tastefully and masterfully
designed by a nonalcoholic book designer Nelson Gruppo, the book was
illustrated with 26 photos. Entitled "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers," it
was published in 1980.

Niles P. immediately began research for a similar biography of Bill W.,
except that the problem was now one of selection from the plethora of
material to draw on, including the Robert Thompson biography published by
Harper & Row. Also, Niles felt overwhelmed by the challenge of portraying
Bill's complex character, colored by his own personal acquaintanceship with
the co-founder. Finally Niles fell ill with cancer and resigned from the
assignment.
Mel B., a professional writer working in corporate relations in Toledo,
Ohio, was engaged to take over. After working for two years, Mel produced a
voluminous, thoroughly researched, well-written manuscript. (A remark made
by the nonalcoholic stenographer whom Mel hired to type the final manuscript
should be preserved for posterity. Unfamiliar with A.A., she got caught up
in the drama of Bill's story, and when she had finished, she said, "He was
such an intelligent and talented man. It's too bad he never did anything
with his life!")

The Literature Committee felt that Mel B.'s manuscript lacked vitality and
failed to make Bill come alive. So the project was turned over to Catherine
N., a freelance writer in New York, to add human interest touches. After
conducting additional interviews, she started to work on the manuscript.
Soon, however, Catherine stopped in frustration, reporting that she could
not do justice to the subject by patching and filling and asking for
permission to do a complete rewrite in her own style. She was given a
go-ahead and spent another year and a half in producing the final book.

A number of suggested titles were considered, but none seemed quite right.
Then one day, a staff member showed Bob P. general manager of G.S.O. a thank
you letter from a member who was the delegate from Delaware for his visit to
G.S.O. on Open House Day. He compared his feelings with the first time he
had met Bill. "I was a couple of months sober and so excited," he wrote, "so
thrilled to actually meet the co-founder that I gushed all over him with
what my sobriety meant to me and my undying gratitude for his starting A.A.
When I ran down, he took my hand in his and said simply, 'Pass It On'" Bob
P. exclaimed, "There's our title!" The book was subtitled, "The Story of
Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world." Again designed by
Nelson Gruppo, it came off the press just before Christmas 1984.

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++++Message 2809. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who authored Dr. Bob and the
Good Oldtimers?
From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2005 4:32:00 PM

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George, Dr. Bob and the Good Old-timers was written by Niles Peebles, a
writer for a large paper. Niles went to Akron and interviewed all who knew
Dr. Bob. The book was written 30 years after Dr. Bob's death and most of the
info was by word of mouth.

Niles died of cancer while preparing to do "Pass it On". Mel Barger, wrote
that
book from archives materials, letters and recollections. Hope this helps.

Diz Titcher
Tallahassee

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++++Message 2810. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: marty mann & Dr. T.
From: merton m. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2005 9:01:00 PM

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Hi again Glenn,

The most astonishing thing to me about Dr. T is that
he actually let Marty take a train from Blythewood to
Montclair by herself and knew she could be trusted not
to imbibe along the way. The trains up until the 80's
had bar cars, even the erie-lackawanna locals out of
NYC. I'm not sure but I don't believe there was (or
is) a direct line from CT to Montclair. There would
most likely be an exchange in Newark Penn Station or
NYC Penn station. I do know that the walk from the
Montclair train station would require a two mile walk
about half of which would be a steep walk uphill, to
reach the N. Fullerton Parkhurst house where Hank,
Kathleen, Bill, Lois and Jim B. were living and where
the Sunday night meeting was held. However I recall
some mention of one of the two Horaces' picking her up
at the station. She definitely attended the May 14,
1939 meeting there as she signed the list of pledges
to the first of the 2 Bill and Lois home improvement
funds. (Nobody but Hank made more than a few payments
and Hank fell off shortly thereafter). Marty may have
made the last meeting in Brooklyn Heights a few
Sonday's earlier and, if I recall correctly the
Blythewood meetings began in late May or early June. I
believe I confirmed there were only 2 to 3 meetings at
most held at Blythewood Sanitarium before they
relocated to Greenwich Ct. after Marty's discharge.
With the help of Bob P. I had obtained the blueprint
type grounds map for what was Blythewood from the
State Historical Society,

All the best!
-merton

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

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++++Message 2811. . . . . . . . . . . . Recently auctioned copy of the Big
Book ms.
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2005 11:18:00 PM

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Dear Old Bill,

Can you kindly elaborate on the recently auctioned multilith that was
used as the actual correction copy? Were the corrections in
handwriting or typed and if handwriting whose? Was this copy
transmitted to the printing company? Is it known whose copy this was?
The existence of such a document is extremely interesting and the
extent of the corrections would go a long way towards discovering the
evolution of the text post-multilith. I was completely unaware that
such a document existed.

-merton
---------------------------------
"schaberg43" <schaberg@a...> wrote:
Subject: absence of any stamps saying "loan copy"

I have seen two original "Multilith" copies - Jim Burwell's copy and
the copy auctioned off a year or so ago in New York City (the one
that was used to compile ALL of the suggestions made for changes to
the original manuscript before the printing of the Big Book in April
of 1939).

NO "Loan Copy" stamps on either of them.

Old Bill

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++++Message 2812. . . . . . . . . . . . Helping hearing-impaired alcoholics
From: DeafAA@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2005 2:54:00 PM

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Hello:

I am wondering about Bob or Bill did ever met any Deaf Alcoholic people in
the
past? Just curious....

___________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

Let's broaden this question a little bit, and ask what the experts can tell
us
about the history of working with the hearing-impaired in AA. It's a special
kind of issue in a program which centers on discussion groups, and listening
to
speakers tell their stories. How can you get any kind of good out of
meetings of
this sort if you cannot hear what the people are saying?

This is an entirely different issue, in other words, from special interest
groups like women's meetings and gay-and-lesbian meetings and airline pilots
meetings, and so on.

When in AA history did the problem first arise of helping alcoholics who
were
hearing-impaired, and what were the circumstances? When did AA people first
become aware of this issue?

Among other things, when did AA conferences and conventions first start
providing signers to help the hearing-impaired understand what the speakers
were
saying?

Do we know the name of the first hearing-impaired alcoholic who overcame the
many problems which this created, and gained long term sobriety in AA?

And my thanks to the person who raised this interesting and very important
question.

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++++Message 2813. . . . . . . . . . . . Type Four alcoholics, "rock bottom,"
and "whoopee parties"
From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2005 5:21:00 AM

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Hi history lovers.

Can anyone help me with these three questions?
_________________________________

(1) We were reading about the four different types of alcoholics in Chapter
8 of
the Big Book, pp. 108-110, "To Wives," and we wondered if anyone would know
how
many of the first one hundred fell into the category of Number Four?
_________________________________

NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR INSERTED HERE:

Type One: These people are heavy drinkers, and it is causing problems, but
they
are not yet chronic alcoholics who have lost all ability to stop.

Type Two: These people have crossed the boundary into alcoholic drinking.
"He
wants to want to stop," but this is not working.

Type Three: These people are drinking so much that they have lost all their
friends and can no longer hold a job. They may have started "the weary round
of
sanitariums and hospitals."

Type Four: Has been institutionalized repeatedly. "He is violent, or appears
definitely insane when drunk." Nevertheless, "many of our husbands were just
as
far gone. Yet they got well."
_________________________________

(2) Also of interest to us was where did the phrase "rock bottom" originate?
_________________________________

(3) One more, what did Bill mean when he was talking about the plain old
"whoopee party" in the chapter in the Big Book on "Working with Others"?
_________________________________

ANOTHER NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR:

On question three, see page 101 in the Big Book: "So our rule is not to
avoid a
place where there is drinking, if we have a legitimate reason for being
there.
That includes bars, nightclubs, dances, receptions, weddings, even plain
ordinary whoopee parties. To a person who has had experience with an
alcoholic,
this may seem like tempting Providence, but it isn't."
_________________________________

A few of our members have come up with various answers, but we would
appreciate
your input on this.

Thank you, Tracy

The Barking Big Book Study Group, England
_________________________________

YET ANOTHER NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR:

We need to remember that AA is an international movement which knows no
boundaries. But the Big Book sometimes uses American slang from the 1930's,
including phrases which would be totally unfamiliar even to native English
speakers, if they come from places like England, Australia, or South Africa.
For
people who are not native English speakers and for whom English is
definitely a
second language, this can be an even greater problem, because these slang
phrases frequently do not show up in an English-French dictionary or an
English-Swedish dictionary or whatever.

So perhaps some of the more ancient American members of this group (smile)
could
explain what "a whoopee party" would have meant in the 1930's. My own
assumption, callow youth that I am (grin), is that these old fogies were
referring to a loud, boisterous, noisy party in somebody's home or someplace
like that, where everybody was just getting together to have fun. I think
that a
party would not have been described in this way back at that period, unless
there were alcoholic beverages being consumed in large amounts.

But see page 359 in the 3rd edit. of the Big Book, where it clear that the
slang
phrase could also refer to an advertising salesperson taking clients out for
dinner at restaurants where there would be heavy drinking at the table, and
everybody would be getting very drunk: "I had my master's degree in the art
of
'making whoopee.'"

And (going back to question No. One) see also page 149, where "the habitual
or
whoopee drinker" is contrasted with those who are genuinely "alcoholics,
sick
people, deranged men."

Mrs. Marty Mann, in her writings (which are extremely important for
understanding early AA), also makes a strong distinction between "heavy
drinkers" who sometimes get very drunk at parties (there were many such
heavy
drinkers in her high society and literary/artistic circles) and those (like
herself) who were genuine alcoholics.

Glenn Chesnut, South Bend, Indiana (d.o.b. 1939)

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++++Message 2814. . . . . . . . . . . . Original Cornwall Reciept fr: 1st
Ed. 1st Ptg. Big Book
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2005 7:00:00 PM

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[This is the reciept for the 1st edition, 1st printing of the
Big Book. It's from the yet unfinished manuscript Black Sheep
and the Source for that is the original reciept from GSO
which I transcribed in the early 90's. The mathematical errors
are not mine. Its doubtful there's much interest in this here.
But someone may find it interesting.]

[note that the bracketed [796.66] appears on the original
printed form. Anything else bracketed indicates something
not part of the reciept.]

[the math errors are not mine]

[begin]

THE CORNWALL PRESS

Invoice No. 85D April 10/39
Terms
Works Publishing Co. Shipped
17 William Street
Newark, New Jersey Telephones
{5695
Chickering 4 {5696
(5697

Cornwall 300
Not responsible for loss or damage to customer's
property caused by fire.
__________________________________________________________
4650 Copies-ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 416 pages
Composition: Setting title page as per est. 2.50
Setting 2 contents pages @ 1.75 as per est. 3.50
Setting 402 text and front matter pages
@ .88 as per est. 353.76
Author's corrections 13.2 hours
@ 2.50 as per est. 33.00
Extra charge for overtime to make date,
as agreed to [blank]
Composition Room- 24 hours @ 1.50 36.00
Electrotype Foundary- 27 hours @ 2.00 54.00
Electrotyping:405 plates @ .77 as per est.[796.66]311.85
7 plate boxes @ 1.25 not on est. 8.75
Presswork as per est. for 5,000 copies
of 384 pages 291.00
350 books less @ .582 as above -20.37
270.65[sic]
Presswork 4650 copies of extra 32 pages 42.00
Paper supplied, as per est. 456.06
5% of extra paper charge, on accountive
supplied 22.80
To binding 1,000 copies .1625 162.50
Binder Dies 25.30
___________
$1,620.25
Deliveries

[end]

[Please don't ask me math questions re this. I know
its off. They added 32 pages and took less books
as a result.]

All the best,
-merton

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++++Message 2815. . . . . . . . . . . . "Excitement" on page 88 in the BB
From: mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2005 4:40:00 PM

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On pages 87-88 of the Big Book it says, "we pause when agitated" (and to
paraphrase) we say to ourselves many times each day, "Thy will be done." And
"we
are then in much less danger of excitement, fear, anger, worry, self-pity,
or
foolish decisions."

I would love to hear from the members your interpretation of the word
"excitement" as it relates to this sentence and to worry, fear, self-pity
and
foolish decisions.

Mike Marsh
Raleigh, NC
____________________________________

NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR:

It is always useful to begin by looking at some of the other places where
that
particular word is used in the Big Book or in the Twelve Steps and Twelve
Traditions. This would be one of the first things that a professional
scholar
would do in carrying out this kind of literary study.

In this case, there are a couple of other uses of this word in the first 164
pages of the Big Book (see page 1 and page 81). But neither of these
passages is
at all useful for understanding the sentence Mike is referring to.

In the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, however, there is a passage in
the
chapter on Step Seven which does seem to be useful: "By this time in all
probability we have gained some measure of release from our more devastating
handicaps. We enjoy moments in which there is something like real peace of
mind.
To those of us who have hitherto known only excitement, depression, or
anxiety
-- in other words, to all of us -- this newfound peace is a priceless gift."

So the word "excitement" means something which is the opposite of "peace of
mind." From one of the other words used in Mike's passage on pp. 87-88, we
see
that excitement has to be some form of mental "agitation," where our minds
are
in turmoil.

It may not be possible to label this mental turmoil clearly as fear, anger,
anxiety/worry, self-pity, or depression. But our thoughts are nevertheless
racing madly, or out of control, or our emotions are so excessive that we
have
gotten totally out of balance.

So my own interpretation would be that the Big Book is warning us here that
alcoholics can get in trouble simply from being too "hyper." This can be
just
as dangerous as going overboard in the other direction, and allowing
ourselves
to become too depressed and discouraged and filled with self-pity.

But I would be interested in seeing what some of the other members of the
AAHL
can come up with here.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)
____________________________________

P.S. When Bill W. says (in the passage cited above on page 88 of the BB)
"Thy
will be done," he is quoting from the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:10 and also
from Matthew 26:42, where Jesus was praying in the garden of Gethsemane
immediately before his arrest, and was pleading with God to "let this cup
pass
from me."

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++++Message 2816. . . . . . . . . . . . 8th printing 1st edition
From: C. Cook . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2005 4:47:00 PM

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Yes I have seen an 8th printing first edition; it's sitting in my lap right
now.
My friend let me borrow it. From what I understand, it's smaller because
they
were conserving paper because we were in a state of war at that time.

There are only two appendices in this book. The second appendix has no
title,
though it is the one that speaks of "spiritual experience." In this
particular
printing the "contempt prior to investigation" quote is not present.

(I might add that it hasn't been found anywhere that Herbert Spencer ever
wrote
that specific quote.)

C. Cook

_________________________________

mertonmm3 <mertonmm3@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Tommy,

Have you seen and 8th printing yet? They are even smaller than the 6th
and 7th. Quite a bit smaller.

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++++Message 2817. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Speakers Manual (1940s)
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2005 6:24:00 PM

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AA SPEAKERS MANUAL (1940s)

Courtesy
Friday Forum Luncheon Club
12 noon every Friday
Mayflower Hotel
Akron, Ohio

SO YOU ARE GOING TO LEAD A MEETING---
FOREWORD – This leaflet has been prepared by members of the Friday Forum
Luncheon Club, an Akron organization that warmly welcomes all AA’s to meet
with it for luncheon and fellowship every Friday, 12 noon, at the Mayflower
Hotel. The suggestions found in this leaflet are just that – suggestions.
It is hoped that they may be of value to all speakers, regardless of their
AA age. Its prime purpose however, is to aid the man (or woman, for the
masculine pronoun is used for simplification) who is confronted with giving
his maiden talk before an AA group. The thoughts expressed are the thoughts
of a score of AA’s, mostly veterans of a year or more experience. The
editors wish to point out, however, that the suggestions made here are by no
means Gospel, or in any way infallible.

Be Brief
Your talk deserves the best effort you can put into it. Anything having to
do with sobriety deserves nothing but the best. You can avoid the
embarrassment of stumbling around groping for words and ideas if you will
use the forethought of preparation. This does not mean sit down and write
out a speech. But organize your subject matter beforehand. If you have any
doubts as to your memory – and remember, you may experience stage fright
–
prepare written notes. After preparing them, follow them closely or you may
get off on a tangent, find yourself in a thicket of verbage, and have
difficulty in finding your way back into your notes. Remember, you owe your
audience some consideration. To speak before a group with no preparation is
an insult to their intelligence.

Be Brief
There is a saying among modern clergymen: “No souls are saved after the
first twenty minutes.” The two-hour, yes, even the one-hour sermon is a
thing of the past. In almost all cases effectiveness is lost after thirty
minutes. After the first half hour the average listener starts to wonder
when the speaker will come to a climax and stop talking. His mind wanders,
and what good the leader has done in his first half an hour immediately
becomes undone. The longer he continues to talk, the less his listener will
remember when it is all over. Remember, alcoholics are restless people.
They squirmed at sermons, twitched at movies, avoided long plays and
concerts, almost never attended lectures. Demothsenes himself could not
hold an alcoholic audience for more than half an hour. Don’t flatter
yourself by thinking you can. If you don’t own a watch, borrow one and
keep
an eagle eye on it. When your half hour is running out, come to a speedy
conclusion. Your audience will be profoundly grateful.

Be Brief
Lincoln’s Gettysburg address lasted four minutes. The principle speaker of
the day, Edward Everett, talked for two hours. No one but a professional
historian today knows what Everett said. Every school child can give
Lincoln’s talk verbatim.

Be Brief
Speak up. Don’t Mumble. Trained orators in the days before public address
systems developed a hard and fast rule: Talk to someone – a friend if
possible – in the very back row of the auditorium. Then you will be sure
every one in the hall will hear you. And take your time. If you speak
deliberately you may not crowd as many words into thirty minutes, but at
least they will be understood.

Be Brief
Your audience knows you are an alcoholic and a member of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Your presence on the platform is proof of that – except in a
few
rare occasions where the speaker may be a non-alcoholic, and will be
introduced as such. Consequently it is ridiculous to “qualify” yourself.
It may be necessary to give some of your drinking history to illustrate what
obstacles you had to overcome to become a practicing AA. But keep it to a
bare minimum. Avoid as you would the plague a blow-by-blow account of your
drinking days and experiences. There are probably a dozen persons or more
in the audience who can give you cards and spades on drinking background.

A recitation of drinking experiences has a definite place in the AA program.
It establishes a bond between the AA and the man who may some day be a
member. It helps convince the new man that he is not the only one in the
world who has a problem. So your drinking story is valuable when you call
on the prospect in his home, in jail, or in a hospital.

But at a meeting the audience is more interested in WHAT YOU HAVE DONE TO
KEEP SOBER. Draw on your drinking experiences to illustrate points and make
an end of it. “HOW I KEEP SOBER” should be the topic of EVERY AA leader.

Be Brief
Following are a few brief suggestions:

Don’t try to cover everything you know in one talk. You probably will be
invited to lead at some future date.
Try to use as much new material as possible in each talk. The man who heard
you Monday night might hear you again on Thursday.
No one knows all the answers. Don’t give the impression that you are an
exception to this rule.
Don’t read lengthy poems or quotations of any kind. They are boresome. If
you must quote, be brief.
Don’t criticize. Leave that for your fifth anniversary. And when your
fifth anniversary comes, don’t criticize.
Be sincere. Don’t be dramatic or play to the grandstand.
Don’t get involved in circuitous analogies. Someone has already built the
ladder or constructed the house – probably better than you can.
Don’t be too positive. Rather, have strong suspicions. Many a man who
“is
never going to take another drink” on Tuesday night is plastered as a new
house Wednesday morning.
Don’t feel you must have a weighty answer to every comment from the floor.
If you have no simple comment, a “thank you” will handle the situation.
When you are finished, SIT DOWN.

After That
Some meetings have a chairman, who then takes over. You will have seen him
before the meeting to get the local “ground rules.” You may wish to
suggest
to him that he comment briefly on audience response, viz.:

1) Counselling brevity.
2) Advising against over eulogizing you, the speaker (you are a modest lad)

If you are your own chairman, suppose you do that – as tactfully as
possible.

1) Thank each speaker, no matter what he or she says. Encourage the new and
inexperienced always.
2) Make your acknowledgement brief.
3) Avoid lengthy comment as the plague. You will find new trains of thought
are a labyrinth from which you cannot easily escape. Temptation to
reminiscence will impede you and after all YOU HAVE SPOKEN YOUR PIECE. Give
the audience a change.
4) Keep your eye on your watch.
5) Close on time with courteous acknowledgements to the chairman, the
members who have spoken and the group generally, going from there to THE
LORD’S PRAYER.

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++++Message 2818. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Helping hearing-impaired
alcoholics
From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2005 4:27:00 PM

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Hi: This question applies to me. I am a friend of a lady who is 28
years sober and I have been going to group open meetings with her
for the past year. (She is legally blind and cannot drive.) I have
a severe hearing problem and wear two hearing aides. In addition, I
have a device which is a transmitter on the table to a unit hung
around my neck which receives the amplified voices (and all other
sounds in the room)then I turn my hearing aides to the "telephone"
setting. Then my aides hear the room voices. I also try to watch
lips to help my comprehension. Frankly, this all is a bit of a
chore. I do not read sign language but I certainly subscribe to the
idea of having signers at conventions, etc, where a program is
planned. I do NOT think that the usual fellowship meetings should
be faced with providing any special "accomodations". Our handicap
is OUR problem, and we do the best we can. I have been staff in
rehabiltation programs all during my career at both the State and
Federal level, so I do not say these things lightly. By the way,
our faciltator has been most gracious to tell the group that the
little black box on the table is only for my benefit and it is not
recording their remarks. Thanks for raising this question on our
site. Les C

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++++Message 2819. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Helping hearing-impaired
alcoholics
From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2005 6:21:00 PM

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Here are a few references, taken from the Grapevine, to deaf alcoholics
within
the AA program:

Grapevine October 1951
"Case History"
says she was old and deaf

Grapevine, February 1952
"Los Angles"
At a meeting south of here, the
other night, a deaf old ex-drunk,
with an all too inadequately geared
hearing aid, approached the speaker.
After some preliminary shouting,
lip-reading and sign language had
established contact, the old man
said: "Maybe you can tell me what
I stumped the committee with -
how do I stay sober when I can't
hear a blankety-blank word?" He
paused a minute, and then said,
"I'll tell you why, young man.
There's a spirit in this room that's
a blankety sight more powerful
than any words you can find for it!"

Grapevine, October 1961
"No Case Is Hopeless"
The pigeon, a deaf mute
who knew no English, "got the
message" through a Latin Bible

Grapevine, August 1979
"Around AA" column
Public Information--recommended trustees'
PI Committee and GSO produce new radio
and TV spots, including Spanish-language
spots; recommended use of sign language for
the deaf on TV announcements.

Grapevine, March 1981
"Give and Take"
As I grew in the program, I had
new members ask me to sponsor
them, and it was much like a teacherstudent
affair, until I was asked by a
deaf member whether I would be his
sponsor. I tried to shy away from
him, because I did not think that I
could communicate with him well
enough to help him. However, I
found that it was not a problem, for
we could speak to each other by
writing notes.
I would pick this man up and take
him to meetings, and he would have
lots of questions to ask, before, during,
and after the meetings. Often, I
would tell him that I would have a
better answer for him at the next
meeting. That would give me a
chance to check the "Twelve and
Twelve" and the Big Book, for I felt
that I did not have a good grasp of
the program. I did not want to give
him any doubtful answers.
Working with this member made
me realize that I might be getting
more from him than he was getting
from me - I was getting more interested
in the program as a result of all
the reading I was doing in order to
help him. It was not a teacher-student
affair as I had experienced it
with other sponsees; it was simply
two alcoholics helping one another.
This man has maintained his sobriety
for the past ten years, and I am
grateful to him for the opportunity
he gave me to really get into the program
and to maintain my sobriety
also.
While I have sponsored many
members since, nothing has been
quite as rewarding as the sponsoring
of this handicapped man. Because of
him and others, I have learned that
as a sponsor I should not judge what
a person's chance is of "making it"
in the program. I have seen many
members get sobriety who were considered
hopeless, and I was one of
these at one time. Maybe that's why
my sponsor chose me to sponsor - I
am sure I gave him some questions to
think about.

Grapevine, October 1985
"Celebration -- AA's 50th Anniversary International Convention, Montreal"
It was forty thousand people (give
or take a thousand or so) speaking the
language of the heart, from platforms,
in the corridors, on lines waiting
for lunch at the restaurants and
refreshment stations-- It was the
impromptu speakers at the Aroundthe-
World Call-Up meeting, where
there was no language barrier between
AAs from many countries--
It was the deaf member who told her
story entirely in sign language, with
virtually no need for a voice interpretation....

Grapevine, May 1988
"AA and the Handicapped"

Grapevine, October 1990
"55 Years, One Day At a Time"
"I was very pleased to find a special
area reserved for deaf signing at
the Big Meeting on Friday night, and
was about to sit down when I saw the
equipment for simultaneous translation
on the other side of the Kingdome.
I asked if one of the channels
carried English -- there was one! --
so I got a headset and sat down in the
section for non-English speaking participants.
Using the headset was an
exciting experience because I heard so
much more of the speaker's remarks
than I usually do. It was like listening
to a tape -- this time I could laugh
and cry at the appropriate times. I've
never felt more 'with it' in the nineteen
years I have attended meetings.
Thanks!
"I also attended the special meeting
for deaf and hard-of-hearing alcoholics,
and sat in wonder at how
accurately and rapidly the message
can be translated by signing."

Grapevine, March 1992
"You Just Don't Understand"
During the first few years of my sobriety,
I noticed deaf people coming
to my meetings and occasionally their
interpreter would not show up to interpret
the meetings. So we would sit
and write back and forth for the hour.
It was then that I decided to learn sign
language to be able to interpret at my
AA meetings. I thought this was my
calling for Twelfth Step work.
As a result, I do much Twelfth Step
work with deaf AAs and have made a
career of working at a university for
the deaf. AA has not only given me
my life, but also it has given me my
career.

Grapevine, August 1992
"Around AA" column
Presentations and agenda items often reflect
the Conference theme, and this year was no exception.
Conference members viewed a video
of the Big Book (minus stories) in American
Sign Language as a means of reaching the deaf
community, and the PI Committee presented a
video for young alcoholics.

Grapevine, March 1995
"My Ears Opened But My Mind Shut"
story of a man born deaf, hearing partially restored

Grapevine, September 1996
"The Fishing Guide, the Bartender, and Me"
From the time I came into AA in
May 1945 until now, I've lived a life of
sobriety and happiness. Today I'm almost
blind and very deaf, so because of
this we're not active any longer in AA,
but we still do what we can for people
who need AA. We take them, we direct
them, we do what we can. My impression,
though, of how AA has
changed is that we did things more
simply when I was young in AA, and
to be perfectly truthful, I like the good
old days better.

Grapevine, October 1997
"Grow or Go"
I learned about the group and the Twelve Traditions from AA members who put
the
common welfare of the group above their own. We did group inventories
annually
to see
how to better reach suffering alcoholics. We tried everything possible to
carry
the
message, from day care to deaf interpreters. I didn't want to go to these
"boring"
inventories at first; I preferred one of the beginners classes instead.

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++++Message 2820. . . . . . . . . . . . Talk to, about and for yourself
From: henrikrue2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2005 6:55:00 AM

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Hi

At many meetings in Denmark an expression like this is used:
"we remind you to talk for, about and to youself"
I wondered if this is a totally local expression or if it is used
elsewhere too.

My best
Henrik Rue, Denmark

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++++Message 2821. . . . . . . . . . . . Marty Mann in Mexico
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2005 1:01:00 PM

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A question about Marty Mann's work in Mexico has been sent in by Sally
Brown,
whose email address is rev.sally@att.net (rev.sally at att.net)

It was originally addressed to Jesus V., but Sally also wanted to see if
anyone
in the AAHistoryLovers knew anything about this subject, since the AAHL is a
major international forum, with members from Mexico and many other parts of
the
globe.

Sally wrote Jesus V. and said:

"You may be able to clear up some mysteries for Dave and me. In researching
our
book, we learned that Marty was active in helping to educate parts of Mexico
about the disease of alcoholism, especially in her earlier years. But we've
never had a Mexican contact to find out exactly where she was in your big
country, and what happened. Do you know of anyone still alive who knew her,
whom
we could interview? We would greatly appreciate any help you could provide.
I
look forward to hearing from you. Muchissimas gracias. Sally"

The reason Sally is interested is because she and David Brown are the
coauthors
of A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous,
which
is one of the best books on AA history written in the last four or five
years.
Sally is continuing her research into this major AA figure.

Because Marty Mann was enormously important. She was not only the first
woman to
get long term sobriety in AA (see the story "Women Suffer Too" in the Big
Book),
she was the founder of the AA Grapevine, along with the National Council on
Alcoholism (now called NCADD = National Council on Alcoholism and Drug
Dependence).

With respect to the latter, Marty Mann was the United States's "most
effective
public health care reformer of the twentieth century, the peer of such
luminaries as Margaret Sanger, Jane Addams, and Dorothea Dix."

(Marty's three predecessors all got their names into the pages of the
standard
textbooks on American history: Margaret Sanger 1883-1966 worked to make
birth
control available to women, Jane Addams 1802-1887 was a pioneer social
worker
who was active in the creation of settlement houses, and Dorothea Dix
1802-1887
campaigned for adequate institutional treatment of the mentally ill.)

Before Marty Mann came along, U.S. society placed an enormous stigma on
alcoholism (no one dared to admit openly that they were alcoholics) and
public
institutions treated alcoholism only with punitive measures (throw the
person in
jail or in the stockade, fire the person or kick the person out with a
dishonorable discharge). Sgt. Bill S. still remembers how he was at the
point of
death from malaria contracted when he was serving in the U.S. Army Air Corps
in
the Pacific during the Second World War, and the Veterans Hospitals refused
to
give him treatment for the malaria, because he was ALSO an alcoholic. They
were
simply going to let him die.

So Sally's question to our group is, does anyone know anything about Marty
Mann's efforts to help alcoholics in Mexico? Did her work leave the kind of
lasting effect in Mexico that it did in the U.S.?

I should add that Ralph Pfau (the Father John Doe who wrote the Golden
Books)
talks in his autobiography Prodigal Shepherd about how he and Bill W.
traveled
together in Mexico at one point, trying to pass on the message and help the
alcoholics of Mexico. AA was introduced into Mexico long before it was
established in many parts of the U.S. and Canada.

Muchas gracias from me too,

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2822. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Excitement" on page 88 in the
BB
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2005 3:30:00 AM

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Hi Mike,

My definition of excitement in relation to this sentence would be agitation.

From my own experience if I get agitated through either intolerance,
expectation, frustration or anything else which will fuel it, then
.......... look out :-)

Fiona

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From: michael oates <moates57@yahoo.com> (moates57 at yahoo.com)

Excitement, to me means anxiety bordering on fear. Kind of like when a puppy
is
excited he pees on himself. An extreme amount of nervous energy.

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From: "Mike Cullen" <59mikec@telus.net> (59mikec at telus.net)

Hey Mike,

That word has always been understood by *ME* to mean anxiety(panic). This
has
been based on the passage itself and what message is being conveyed (my
interpretation) and my experiences with all of the suggested feelings and
emotions.

shalom
Mike Cullen Jan 7 1993 Calgary, Alberta

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From: "Corky Forbes" <corkyf@cox.net> (corkyf at cox.net)

Hi,

According to the Unabridged.Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition it means
"extreme motor hyperactivity (as in catatonic schizophrenia or
manic-depressive
psychosis)".

That is probably the extreme condition we let our negative emotions get us
into.
I have personally experienced that very condition, and it is very dangerous.
Prayer and action helps me get over it. Primarily getting around AA friends;
going to a meeting or working with alcoholics; just getting out of
myself.... In
addition, I believe depression, is the result of my self-pity; also, it
usually
begins with some abnormal and overwhelming sense of apprehension (fear,
often
ill-grounded - resentment)about something that may or may not occur. I
appreciate Glenn's definition. It simplified it for me. Thanks.

Thanks for letting me share.
Corky - Tulsa, OK

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From: <greatcir@comcast.net> (greatcir at comcast.net)

I use my 1937 Webster's Universal Unabridged Dictionary when I look up words
used in the Big Book. It defines "excite" as "To rouse; to call into action;
to
agitate; to stir up activity; to cause to act, as that which is dormant,
sluggish or inactive; as, to excite the spirits; to excite a mutiny or
insurrection."

Syn.- Incite, arouse, stimulate, kindle, agitate, awaken, irritate, stir up,
inflame

Today it seems to be:
excite

1.. To stir to activity.
2.. To call forth (a reaction or emotion, for example); elicit: odd noises
that
excited our curiosity.
3.. To arouse strong feeling in: speakers who know how to excite a crowd.

It was suggested to me some years ago when I struggled with the word
brainstorm
in the BB (p. 66) that I get a dictionary of the period and brainstorm
(brain
storm) had to do with the violent derangement of the mind in 1937 .

Pete Kopcsak
Nashville, TN

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From: <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

In my part of Indiana, I have frequently heard it said in meetings by people
who
have gotten a little bit of time in the program, that before they came into
AA,
they were always "way up" or "way down." They were always either manic and
over
excited about something, or enormously depressed or gloomy about something.

Psychotherapists who were not terribly competent would sometimes misdiagnose
them as bipolar, that is, as manic-depressive. It was in fact the case that
their lives were on a roller coaster, where they would swoop up to some kind
of
manic state, and then plunge down into some kind of depressed state. But
they
were not truly bipolar, because that is caused by a chemical imbalance.

Now there really are people who come into the fellowship who are bipolar,
and
need medication and good psychiatric help.

But that is not what was going on with a lot of alcoholics. What they really
needed to do was to work the twelve steps, and to learn the great truth in
the
chapter on the Fourth Step in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, that
our
character defects are caused by our natural instincts getting out of
balance. We
become TOO angry, we want sex TOO much, we want to enjoy the party TOO much,
we
want to stir things up and make them interesting TOO much (and so we dance
over
to the sleeping tiger, and smack him across the muzzle really hard, to get
some
excitement going!!!).

These same people (after they have a little bit of time in the program)
report
that their lives have leveled out enormously. They can still get a little
bit
excited, or a little bit gloomy, but it's a mild riding up and down. They no
longer suffer from the wild roller coaster swoops up to the heights and down
to
the depths.

And so life gets calm and easy. We become basically very peaceful people. We
learn how to enjoy ourselves without the wild out of control craziness that
used
to occur when we got over excited (which was often, particularly when we had
been drinking!!!).

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2823. . . . . . . . . . . . Back to Basics?
From: Gallery Photography . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2005 1:46:00 AM

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I know this is AA History Lovers, so I'm unsure if this is off topic or not?

Do any of you have information about "Back to Basics", put together
(apparently)
by Wally P.? I had never heard of the "foundation" and a new member of our
group
(the group - not AA) was talking about it. All I gathered from him was they
utilize 'Doctor Bob's way' of taking people through the steps in 4 sessions
lasting about 1 to 1 1/2 hours each. He said the 4th and 5th steps are done
together in an "interview" style.

I told him I was an AA history buff and I had never heard of that. I asked
about
Dr. Bob's (4 hour) process and where did it come from? I've read Dr. Bob and
the
Old-timers about 3 times and never remember reading about it. Nor do I
recall
anything like that in AA Comes of Age or Pass it On. He said; 'it's been
passed
down through old-timer's. He couldn't give me any sources for the info.

I looked on the net for Back to Basics and found lot's of stuff (mostly
books
for sale) but couldn't find any history information about it. There were a
few
links (within some of the sites) that said "Back to Basics History" but
clicking
there all I found there was a story about how someone (I'm assuming Wally
P?)
found a pamphlet (in 1993) published in September 1944, which described in
detail the A.A. "Beginners' Classes" as they were being taught in
Washington,
D.C. (1944). It goes on to say, "that pamphlet started a four-year odyssey
that
resulted in the publication of "Back to Basics - The Alcoholics Anonymous
Beginners' Meetings - 'Here are the Steps we took...' in Four One-Hour
Sessions".

I figured some of you could help me find some answers.

Rotax Steve

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++++Message 2824. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: About the Herbert Spencer Quote
From: Jim . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2005 12:45:00 AM

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Introduction
This is the story of a famous quotation and the environments in which it has
adapted and survived. To the 20th and 21st centuries, the story would seem
to
begin in the year 1939 when the book Alcoholics Anonymous was published. A
contributing author of that text used a quotation to head his chapter. He
attributed the quotation to a man named Herbert Spencer, presumably the 19th
century British philosopher, evolutionist, and sociologist:
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof
against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting
ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
In this context, the author was trying to challenge “the mental attitudes
of
many alcoholics when the subject of religion, as a cure, is first brought to
their attention.” In later editions of Alcoholics Anonymous (1955, 1976,
2002),
this author’s chapter was replaced, but the Spencer quotation is preserved
in an
appendix to encourage people to keep an open mind about the religious or
spiritual remedy that Alcoholics Anonymous prescribes for its members.
Since 1939, over twenty million copies of Alcoholics Anonymous have been
printed, and with each copy, another copy of this quotation attributed to
Herbert Spencer. The quotation has since been used by a variety of authors.
A
variation has even appeared in one dictionary of quotations. On the
Internet,
new variations multiply and mutate. By now, the quotation is famous, and has
made the nearly forgotten Herbert Spencer famous in the 21st century for
saying
it.
But Herbert Spencer never wrote or said anything resembling this quotation.
It is derived from a Christian apologetic work by the 18th century British
theologian William Paley. The variations of wording that have come down
through
the past two centuries only bear a skeletal resemblance to Paley’s
original
meaning and form.
In A View of the Evidences of Christianity (1794), William Paley wrote:
“The infidelity of the Gentile world, and that more especially of men of
rank
and learning in it, is resolved into a principle which, in my judgment, will
account for the inefficacy of any argument, or any evidence whatever, viz.
contempt prior to examination.”
In this context, Paley was trying to give reasons why the Christian faith
was
rejected by the ancient Greeks and Romans. He was trying to boil down the
cause
of their non-belief to a single principle.
Eighty-five years later, a Canadian named Rev. William H. Poole argued that
the
Anglo-Saxon race is actually descended from the ten lost tribes of Israel.
On
the title page of Anglo-Israel or, The British Nation: The Lost Tribes of
Israel
(1879) Poole attributes the following to Dr. Paley:
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof
against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting
ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination.”
Rev. Poole may not have been the author who reconstructed Paley’s words to
give
us this variation of the quotation, but this is the earliest instance of it
I
was able to find.
The earliest attribution to Herbert Spencer I found was in 1931 by two
British
homeopaths. One of the homeopaths uses a variation of the quotation that is
identical to the one used in Alcoholics Anonymous.
Misquotations and misattributions like this are fairly common, and actually
make
up a significant portion of the canon of famous quotations.
For instance, Voltaire never wrote some of his most famous words: “I
disapprove
of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say
it.” Voltaire
died in 1778, but this quotation dates from 1906. It was written by a
biographer, S.G. Tallentyre, in her book The Friends of Voltaire. In 1935
she
explained in a letter to the New York Times that the words were not
Voltaire’s.
She was trying to describe Voltaire’s attitude, but did not mean to
suggest that
Voltaire had used those exact words. She explained that they “are rather a
paraphrase of Voltaire’s words in the Essay on Tolerance – ‘Think for
yourselves
and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too.’”
Some misquotations are so-called “improvements” made by authors who like
the
idea in a quotation, or the kernel of an idea, and so they sharpen up the
wording to make it more useful or pithy. This is the case with the Paley
quotation. The problem of the misattribution to Herbert Spencer may never be
solved. It could be nothing more than a blunder in copying the quotation, or
it
could be that that whoever did it preferred Spencer’s name to Paley’s.
It is impossible to trace a clear and contiguous lineage for this quotation.
However, it is possible to identify recurring themes in the sources which
use
it. These themes suggest that the sources may have had a common original
source,
or that they quoted amongst themselves. More broadly speaking, the themes
identify "environments" in which the quotation survived.
I have chosen the phrase "alternative knowledge" as the most general of
these
environments. By alternative knowledge I mean subjects that are outside the
mainstream, but are usually being presented as "special knowledge" that
challenges the established order. Among these subjects are fringe religion,
occultism, and unorthodox healing. I will treat each of these more
specifically
in the discussion of each source, and I will draw relationships between
them.
Some of the movements may not be considered “alternative” in today’s
world. The
point is that they were at the time these works were written, and they speak
from the point of view of an alternative voice asserting itself. It is not
my
intention to comment as to the validity or invalidity of any of these
movements.
My goal is to attempt to trace a lineage and to identify some themes that
can be
generalized toward that goal.
I have divided this paper into two major sections.
The first will follow the history of the quotation as I have found it
attributed
to William Paley, beginning with Paley’s original and a brief analysis of
its
historical context and meaning. By giving an account of my survey of
Paley’s
complete works, I will prove that Paley never wrote the quotation exactly as
we
have it. Some author after Paley extracted his words from context, reworded
his
phrases, and added a phrase to give us the structure of the quotation as it
has
survived into the 21st century.
The second section will follow the history of the quotation as I have found
it
attributed to Herbert Spencer. Having proved that Paley is the progenitor of
the
quotation, I will prove that Spencer never quoted Paley. I will give a
detailed
account of my own survey of Spencer’s complete works and his
“unpublished”
letters and articles. I will also attempt to end a rumor that the quotation
is
from Spencer’s Principles of Biology. The remainder of the paper will
follow the
survival of the quotation to the advent of the Internet, and will discuss
some
of the effects of its widespread acceptance as the words of Herbert Spencer.
Throughout both sections I will also examine other spurious quotations or
outright misquotations encountered along the way as it seems authors who use
one
misquotation are likely to use others.
Most of the variations and uses of the quotation I highlight in this paper
are
taken from books. I found most of these books on web pages where the books
were
reviewed or quoted.
Though I have found most of the sources through Internet research, I do
believe
that they represent a good sample of the variety of uses of the quotation in
literature through time. It may appear that I have intentionally sought
unusual
sources because so many of them deal in bizarre topics. But these books
represent all of the sources I was able to find......
[You can read the rest of his research here:
http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/ - "The Survival of a Fitting
Quotation",
By Michael
StGeorge]Jim========================================================"Let us
also
remember to guard that erring member - the tongue, and if we must use it,
let's
use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance." -Dr. Bob, Sunday,
July
30, 1950 http://silkworth.net/aahistory/drbob_farewell.html=================
From: C. Cook [mailto: ccp28para4@yahoo.com]To:
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comDate: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:47:22 -0800
(PST)Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 8th printing 1st editionYes I have seen an
8th
printing first edition;......(I might add that it hasn't been found anywhere
that Herbert Spencer ever wrote that specific quote.)C. Cook

_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2825. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "whoopee parties"
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2005 6:14:00 PM

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On 11/7/2005 , Glenn Chesnut (self-confessed date of birth 1939) wrote:

"So perhaps some of the more ancient American members of this group (smile)
could explain what 'a whoopee party' would have meant in the 1930's. My own
assumption, callow youth that I am (grin), is that these old fogies were
referring to a loud, boisterous, noisy party in somebody's home or someplace
like that, where everybody was just getting together to have fun."

Glenn,

My Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary has as the first definition
of
whoopee [p. 1019] as "the feverish participation in alcohol-and-sex-orgies
first
widely conspicuous during the U.S. prohibition era - often used in the
phrase
make whoopee." The second definition is, "boisterous convivial fun."

I note that where the passage from the Big Book that uses the term is quoted
in
The A.A. Way of Life/As Bill Sees It, page 77, the word is left out for some
reason.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge, just turned 66 so ancient is a relative word.
__________________________

From: Bob <shopperbob@isp.com>

I refer you to the song of the time ...

"Another bride another June ... another sunny honeymoon ... Another season
another reason ... to make whoopee ...."

I guess this type of party would have some sexual overtones ... or
undertones.

Shopper Bob
__________________________

Response from Glenn C:

I really groove on both these answers about ancient slang phrases where
nobody,
like, knows what they mean anymore, I think they're just the cat's pajamas.

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++++Message 2826. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Movies
From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/3/2005 9:04:00 AM

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here is an abbreviated list of aa movies that members suggest.
(i haven't included the stars, write-ups, or reviews.)

if you have a suggestion, now would be a good time to send it
so i can research it and add it to the list.

if i have missed one, now would be a good time to send me an
'ebang' on the head.

i expect to send the entire list (approx 33 pages of microsoft
word)sometime after thanksgiving.

send your suggestions (and 'ebangs')straight to me (please cc glenn)
at billyk3@yahoo.com

thanks
be good to yourselves,
billyk

Affliction (1997)
A Star is Born (1954)
Barfly 1987
Clean and Sober 1988
Come Back, Little Sheba 1952
Come Fill the Cup Year 1951
Days of Wine and Roses 1962
Drunks 1997
Great Santini 1979
Harvey 1950
I’ll Cry Tomorrow 1955
Ironweed 1987
Lady Sings the Blues 1972
Leaving Las Vegas 1995
Life of the Party: The Story of Beatrice Year unknown
Lost Weekend 1945
My Name is Bill W. 1989
My Name is Kate 1994
Night into Morning. 1951
On the Nickle 1980
Sarah T. -- Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic 2003
Shakes the Clown 1992
Shattered Spirits 1986
Smash Up 1947
Something to Live For. 1952
Stuart Saves His Family 1995
Tender Mercies. 1983
The Bottom of the Bottle. 1956
The Country Girl. 1954
Too Much, Too Soon. 1958
Trees Lounge 1996
28 Days 2000
Under the Influence 1986
Under The Volcano 1984
Vital Signs 1986
Voice in the Mirror. 1958
When A Man Loves A Woman 1994

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NO MENTION OF ALCOHOLISM IN THE REVIEWS

The following three movies have also been recommended by one or more
members of the AAHistoryLovers as a movie about alcoholism, but in the
available reviews, no mention is made of the role alcohol plays in the
film and/or there seems to be no serious recognition in the film of
alcoholic styles of drinking and their consequences.

Life of the Party
On Thin Ice
Sideways

__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

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++++Message 2827. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member in good standing
From: Donna Bridges . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/10/2005 11:39:00 PM

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In the late 80's I heard more than a few speakers at conventions use that
phrase. Best I remember, it went..."My name is Joe and I'm a member in good
standing of AA. I can say that because I have a sponsor, a home group and I
work the steps as written in the Big Book," or words to that effect.

Donna B - Baton Rouge
----- Original Message -----
From: azbigbook
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 1:54 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Member in good standing

Dear History lovers,

Has anyone heard the term "a member in good standing,"
where it applies to membership in Alcoholics Anonymous?
Where does this come from or did someone make it up?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

In Service with Gratitude

Chuck P

SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Addiction recovery center
Christian addiction recovery
Alcoholics anonymous

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

a.. Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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++++Message 2828. . . . . . . . . . . . Greenwich CT to Montclair NJ
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2005 3:07:00 PM

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Merton -- A few more details. In 1939 Greenwich CT was on the New
York New Haven & Hartford RR coming into Grand Central Station in
NYC. Montclair NJ was either on the Lackawanna (Delaware,
Lackawanna & Western RR) or the Erie RR (not the Erie-Lackawanna, a
merged road created in the 1950s, if my memory serves me). If on
the Lack, the train for Montclair left from the Lackawanna terminal
in Hoboken NJ; if on the Erie, from the Erie terminal in Jersey City
NJ. Both were reachable from NYC by the Hudson "tubes" (Hudson &
Manhattan RR, now PATH), either from 33rd Street (Penn Station) or
from Hudson Terminal (under the former site of the World Trade
Center). One could also take the ferry from lower Manhattan. Both
tube trains stopped at Exchange Place (Jersey City) so one could
switch from a Hoboken-bound train to a Jersey City-bound train. To
get to the West Side subways from Grand Central one took the shuttle
and then walked to either the 7th Avenue IRT or the 8th Avenue IND
line. The point is, to take a train from Greenwich CT to Montclair
NJ one would leave the New Haven RR at GCT, walk past several bars
to the shuttle, get off, walk to one of the West Side subways (I
don't recall whether there were any bars there), take the subway to
either 33rd St or Hudson Terminal, walk past a couple of bars there,
go to either Hoboken or JC (whichever it was), walk past at least
one bar there, and get on the commuter train to Montclair. The
longer-distance Erie and Lack trains (Port Jervis Express on the
Erie, for example) had bar cars, but most of the trains didn't --
but the terminals had very quick and efficient bars right where you
came up out of the tubes. Your point stands -- in fact, it's a
little stronger than you stated it. Btw, on the subject of Marty in
1939, who is "Grenny"?

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++++Message 2829. . . . . . . . . . . . What is the history of Alano clubs?
From: slaraffen . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2005 3:41:00 PM

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Hi. As an Alcoholic living in Norway I must admit i've not at all
familiar with Alano-groups, what they are and what they do--and how
they are related to AA.

Hope to get a little knowledge about it through AAHL

Alf G

_____________________________

From the moderator:

Alf,

Explained briefly, Alano clubs appeared fairly early in AA history in this
country. We had an Alano Club established in South Bend, Indiana, not long
after
AA was established here in 1943. There is a little bit about the one here
(though not much) in "The Factory Owner & the Convict"
(http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html). When AA spread to the neighboring city of
Elkhart, they set up a room at Mr. Goodwrench's in downtown Elkhart where AA
people could drop in have a cup of coffee and chat for a while, and also
eventually fixed up an "Area Hall" where AA meetings could be held. There is
a
little bit about that in "The St. Louis Gambler & the Railroad Man"
(http://hindsfoot.org/kstl1.html) though again not very much.

In order to preserve the traditions, a group of AA people form themselves
into a
corporation which is itself not AA at all.

They then buy (or rent) a small building, or rent a set of rooms in a
building,
and use that for a club house. They can own property and sign legal
contracts
because the corporation which runs the Alano Club is not itself an AA group,
and
has no relationship to AA except for certain services which it may choose to
provide.

Alano Clubs (and "Area Halls" and "Fellowship Houses") frequently provide
rooms
for AA groups to hold their meetings, for which they charge the AA groups
rent
(self-supporting through our own contributions).

In my part of the country, they are apt to charge each group $10 or $20 or
$25
per week for each meeting that they hold in the building.

Some remain open all day long, and provide a place for AA people to meet and
drink coffee and chat. The Alano Club which is run in downtown Gary,
Indiana, by
Mozelle, the great black leader that city, also serves food. You can buy hot
dogs or Polish sausage or chili (I would assume that you would serve
something
totally different to eat in Norway if you created a place like this).

The one in Gary, Indiana, also allows NA groups to meet in their building,
but
Fellowship House in South Bend, Indiana, only allows AA groups and Al-Anon
groups to meet in their building (which used to be a small grocery store).

Some have a room which is big enough that they can hold an AA dance once a
month. Many will have on occasion what we in the U.S. call a pot luck (or
carry-in) dinner, where each member brings some kind of dish to share
(Swedish
meatballs, fried chicken, potato salad, macaroni salad, a pie or a cake, or
something of that sort).

I hope that some of our good AA historians in the group can tell us more
precisely when the first such AA club houses were set up, and something
about
their earliest history.

For example, when did the first such clubhouses or meeting places appear in
Akron, and in the New York City area?

There is also probably a set of guidelines published by the GSO in New York
City, explaining that "experience has shown that" certain ways of setting up
these Alano Clubs tend to work better than others, although no AA groups are
compelled to follow that advice.

Glenn Chesnut

P.S. There are interesting historical parallels between these AA clubhouses
and
some of the provisions which were made in medieval Europe for Franciscan
houses.

The early Franciscan monks (following the teaching of St. Francis very
strictly)
were not allowed to own any kind of property at all. St. Francis lived in a
cave
on the side of a mountain (which I once visited), and Franciscan monks were
told
that, if they could find no one to put them up for the night, they could
sleep
on the floor of a church somewhere.

In the beginning, Franciscan monks begged bare footed for their food every
day
in the streets. There is still a street in Goettingen in Germany called
Barefoot
Street (in German) because that was where the Franciscan monks lined up
every
day with their begging bowls (a Buddhist custom transmitted to western
Europe
via the trade routes).

Eventually however, Catholic laypeople who admired the followers of St.
Francis
started building what were in effect full fledged monasteries, with beds and
kitchens for preparing food, and so on, which THE LAYPEOPLE OWNED, not the
monastic order. The laypeople were the ones who legally owned the building
and
everything else. They merely allowed the Franciscan monks to use their
property.

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++++Message 2830. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "whoopee parties"
From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2005 12:06:00 PM

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From Cliff and Mel, two different interpretations:

FROM CLIFF:

Being an Octogenarian, I can assure you that "whoopee parties" were just
plain
old fashioned house parties. Parties just for the fun of it. There were none
of the distractions to socializing as we have today. If we removed TV from
the
home, we might well see more of this type of socializing in our society.

In God's love and service,

Cliff Bishop
(214) 350-1190
FAX - (214) 350-7571
CBBB164@aol.com
www.ppgaadallas.org

________________________________

FROM MEL (who got sober in 1950):

From: "Mel B." <melb@accesstoledo.com>
Date: Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:29am
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] "whoopee parties"

Hi Folks,

We just returned from a Caribbean cruise. The cruisemaster had some sly
humor
which he used on stage, and one evening he queried married couples about how
often they "made whoopee." It was clear that "making whoopee" was a
not-so-subtle euphemism for having sex.

Mel B.

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++++Message 2831. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "whoopee parties"
From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2005 10:04:00 PM

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Hi Glenn and others:

I'm one of those "old fogies" (being 81 next month) but since I was
also raised in Vermont I didn't have direct contact with "city
folks" where I thought "Whoopee" was in style. I remember the
prohibition period and the Great Depression very vividly. My dad
was not an alchoholic but he did make beer and wine at home. Also
during that period it was common to make cider and keep it in a
barrel until it got "hard." If you froze hard cider, the part which
did not freeze was called "applejack" and was assummed to be
straight alcohol. The term Whoopee was well known even in rural
areas and was associated with drinking and lively parties of any
sort. I think it was particularly associated with "speakeasies"
and, as mentioned, defined as part of the prohibition period.

Les C
________________________

On 11/7/2005 , Glenn Chesnut (self-confessed date of birth 1939)
wrote:

"My own assumption ... is that these ... were referring to a loud,
boisterous,
noisy party in somebody's home or someplace like that, where everybody was
just
getting together to have fun," but that there usually would be alcoholic
beverages involved, which was the primary concern in these references to
whether
alcoholics should ever attend parties of that sort.

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++++Message 2832. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 8th printing 1st edition
From: tsirish1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2005 5:00:00 PM

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From tsirish1 and Tox Hickcox:

FROM TISIRISH1:
I am confused. You say that there are two Appendices in your copy of
the 1st Edition? I thought the Spiritual Experience wasn't added
until 1955. When was it added?
_____________________________

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005
At 15:47 11/10/2005 , C. Cook wrote:

"There are only two appendices in this book. The second appendix has no
title,
though it is the one that speaks of 'spiritual experience.' In this
particular
printing the 'contempt prior to investigation' quote is not present."

The quote allegedly from Herbert Spencer doesn't show up until the 2nd
Edition/3rd Printing, the one that says "Third Edition" on the dust jacket.

My 1st Edition/11th Printing has the two appendices as you note as does the
5th
Printing.

Thanks for the info. Could you send me at my email address given above
(cometkazie1 at cox.net) b/c the approximate dimensions of the 8th?

Tommy in Baton Rouge

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++++Message 2833. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Excitement" on page 88 in the
BB
From: Linda Watson . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2005 6:04:00 PM

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From Linda Watson and C. Cook

FROM LINDA WATSON:

One of the most vivid examples I've encountered was from a couple who
arrived at the meeting late. They had just won a lot of money on a
lottery and you can imagine that excitement! Their first thought
was to have a drink to celebrate, however they both had many years in
the program and decided to go to a meeting instead.

____________________________

FROM C. COOK:

From: "C. Cook" <ccp28para4@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 0:46pm

This usage of the word is very closely related to the 'manic' part of the
disease of "manic/depression". if not exactly the same.

C. Cook

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++++Message 2834. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Talk to, about and for yourself
From: Lance Weldgen . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2005 3:11:00 PM

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From Lance Weldgen and C. Cook

FROM LANCE:

I've never heard anything like this in California or Colorado.

HUGS!!! Lance from colorful Colorado!
____________________________

From: "C. Cook" <ccp28para4@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:05pm

Not here in Austin, but it should be.

C. Cook
____________________________

henrikrue2000 <henrik.rue@...> wrote:

"At many meetings in Denmark an expression like this is used: 'we remind you
to
talk for, about and to yourself.' I wondered if this is a totally local
expression or if it is used elsewhere too.

My best

Henrik Rue, Denmark
____________________________

From the moderator:

We can all learn (from all over the world) from the shared experience of
people
within our fellowship in various places.

This traditional Danish saying is one that AA people from other countries
might
well wish to add to their list of useful AA mottos and phrases.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2835. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Back to Basics?
From: brian thompson . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2005 10:44:00 PM

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Rotex Steve go to this web site and you'll learn more.

the four one hour sessions.

http://hindsfoot.org/Detr0.html

Brian T. Spring Grove, IL and Camp Verde, AZ

_____________________________

Note from the moderator:

The webpage which Brian is referring to gives a full length copy of
"Alcoholics
Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps," an early set of AA
beginners
lessons known in early AA by a variety of names: the Detroit Pamphlet, the
Washington D.C. Pamphlet, the Table Leaders Guide, the Table Mate, and so
on.
This little pamphlet (20 to 24 pages long) was originally written in Detroit
in
June 1943 or not long afterwards. It was the most widely used set of short
beginners lessons in early AA, and was used by numerous AA groups from north
to
south and from coast to coast.

All (or at least most) of this pamphlet was copied out verbatim into Wally
P.'s
Back to Basics book, and is the actual substantive part of that book. If you
go
through the Back to Basics book page by page, comparing it with that
pamphlet,
you will see that most of the rest of the book is just Wally's theories, and
exhortations to take these lessons seriously and act on them right away.

People who are interested in early AA beginners lessons should see the next
message, describing Jack H.'s recent discovery of the "Instructor's Outline"
used for the old time Minneapolis AA beginners classes. This is a very
recent
discovery, which would not have been known to Wally. For a copy of this
"Instructor's Outline" see http://hindsfoot.org/mnclass1.html

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2836. . . . . . . . . . . . Earliest AA beginners classes
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2005 2:37:00 PM

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This set of Minneapolis instructions for conducting AA beginners classes is
the
ancestor of "The Little Red Book."

Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) has recently discovered a copy of the
"Instructor's Outline" for the old-time Minneapolis A.A. beginners classes.
A
copy of this may be found at http://hindsfoot.org/mnclass1.html It is an
extremely important document because it gives us our earliest known example
of
formal AA beginners classes as they were given in early AA.

This mimeographed Instructor's Outline from Minneapolis, Minnesota, seems to
have been put together by Ed Webster for the beginners classes which he gave
there, beginning in May 1942 at 2218 First Avenue South. It comes from the
collection of Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona), who has all of Ed Webster's
papers.
This is the earliest known material for A.A. beginners lessons. It is the
ancestor of The Little Red Book (An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps of
the
Alcoholics Anonymous Program) which Ed Webster published in 1946 with Dr.
Bob's
help and support.

It is set up in the form of four classes held over the course of four weeks,
in
which the twelve steps are divided in the following way:

Class No. 1: Step 1
Class No. 2: Steps 4, 5, 8, and 9
Class No. 3: Steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 11
Class No. 4: Steps 10 and 12

This Instructor's Outline from Minneapolis is important because it was the
ancestor of the famous book of beginners lessons published in Minneapolis in
1946 which was originally entitled "An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps of
the
Alcoholics Anonymous Program." Because of the color of its cover, it soon
came
to be known as "The Little Red Book" (116 pages long in its first edition
form)
to distinguish it from the Big Book, which Jack says was sometimes called
"the
Big Red Book" back in those days because of the color of its dust jacket.

Other surviving beginners lessons from the early AA period:

The Detroit or Washington D.C. Pamphlet, aka "The Table Leaders Guide" or
"The
Table Mate"

This was a little pamphlet (20 to 24 pages long) which was written in June
1943
or not long afterwards, and was already well known in A.A. circles by the
Fall
of 1944. It was called "Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the
Twelve
Steps" in the version printed in Detroit. It was written in Detroit and
originally mimeographed to hand out to beginners there, so in the Midwest it
is
still known as the Detroit Pamphlet. See http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html for
a
copy of the Detroit version. Most of the many other versions available on
the
internet were copied from this one.

We have now finally gotten fairly conclusive proof that the Detroit A.A.
group
originally wrote it. The Detroit Archivist recently discovered a program in
their archives for a dinner which was held in Detroit several years after
the
pamphlet was written, with a reference in that program to their people
having
been the ones who wrote those beginners lessons.

A copy of Detroit's mimeographed beginners lessons apparently got to the
A.A.
group in Washington D.C., which then published the first professionally
printed
version. Since this was distributed very widely on the East Coast, it came
to be
known as the Washington D.C. Pamphlet in that part of the United States.
When a
copy of one of those printed pamphlets was brought to Seattle, Washington,
by a
merchant seaman, the Seattle A.A. group had a printer reproduce the pamphlet
for
use on the West Coast, where the A.A. groups usually think of it as a
Seattle
pamphlet. There was also an early printed version done by the A.A. group in
Oklahoma City.

This pamphlet was known in some parts of the United States as "The Table
Leaders
Guide" or "The Table Mate: Guide to the Study of the Twelve Steps."

All of these different early printed versions seem to be word for word the
same,
except for the poems and sayings that are quoted at the beginning and end of
the
pamphlet (which have nothing to do with the lesson material) and the
quotations
given at the end of each lesson. The latter however sometimes contain
important
material for beginners to think about, like the "Staying on the Beam"
passage
from Emmet Fox at the end of lesson four in the Detroit version, which has
helped many generations of newcomers to A.A. in their day-to-day working of
the
program.

The Akron Manual and the Akron Guide to the Twelve Steps

Other early A.A. beginners pamphlets include the Akron Manual, originally
printed in late 1939 or early 1940, and the Akron Guide to the Twelve Steps.

By reading all of these works (the Minneapolis Instructor's Outline, the
Detroit/Washington D.C. Pamphlet, the Akron Manual, and the Akron Guide to
the
Twelve Steps) along with "The Little Red Book" (1946) and the material in
large
print at the top of each page in "Twenty Four Hours a Day" (1948), you can
obtain a very good picture of the simple, sensible instructions which you
would
have received from the old timers if you had been a beginner walking into
your
first AA meeting back in the old time period.

This is an important part of our historic AA Heritage, which tells us how
the
Big Book was actually interpreted in early AA (that is, what the old time AA
people actually MEANT by the words that were used in the Big Book), during
the
period when the enthusiastic new movement was spreading rapidly across the
United States and Canada, and first beginning to be established in a number
of
other countries around the world.

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++++Message 2837. . . . . . . . . . . . Format Issues re: Cornwall BB
Receipt
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/12/2005 7:40:00 PM

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Re: post #2814 which is the 1st Ed. Receipt for the 1st printing
please note that the format juggled the numbers a bit (and they will
add up to $1,748.67 when corrected. These will give you the correct
format:

1. All numbers that end in 2 decimal places at the end of a line
should be moved to the right to form a single vertical column EXCEPT
for [796.66], 291.00 and -20.37. These last 3 numbers should be in a
vertical line to the left of your newly formed vertical column.

2. I do not know the meaning of the [796.66]. The brackets are from
the original and are not a textual edition.

3. The 291.00 and the 20.37 represent an offset subtraction. Its
meaning = 291.00 - 20.37 = 270.65. [note the .02 math error on original].

4. The final tally appears to be off by $128.84. I cannot explain the
discrepancy.

The columns were split on the transmission even though they were
correct on this end. I apologize for any confussion.

-merton

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++++Message 2838. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of Back to Basics
movement
From: Johnny Hughes . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2005 2:25:00 PM

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Steve:

Go to http://www.aabacktobasics.com/ and you will find information about the
Back to Basics program. Look at the links as well, it is not all on the
first
page that pops up.

In addition, please read "He Sold Himself Short." There you will find a
reference to "three or four hours formally going through the Six-Step
Program"
with Dr. Bob, in which all the steps were gone through in one single long
session.

The "Back To Basics" program started in the jails in Richmond, Virginia.
John M.
mentioned in the article started the
series of back to basic meetings in Richmond, Virginia, for the general AA
community back in the late 1990's and it was very successful in that it got
people into a program of recovery without what the Back to Basics people
believed were over complicated psychological interpretations.

I lived in Richmond, at the time, and I required all the people I was
working
with to attend the course because we are told "when the spiritual malady is
overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically."

In other words, we can not get well until we learn how to start "living" the
program of recovery. In the Back to Basics program it is believed that this
necessitates taking the steps quickly. No "one step a year."

If a diligent search is done concerning the recovery process in the early
years,
one will find such information such as this, which is the Akron Pamphlet
published in the forties:
http://www.aabibliography.com/aahtml3/manualforaa.html

If you want to learn more, order the instructors program from Back To Basics
and
you will also receive a number of copies of recovery articles, I got about
30,
written in the early days concerning the rapid method of recovery
experienced
then. They took the steps and took them very quickly!

In addition, many early groups did not allow a newcomer to attend a meeting
until he had taken the steps with his sponsor.

Living sober and loving it!
IHS
Johnny H.

____________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

I believe that Johnny H. has given us a decent basic historical account here
of
the way that Wally P. wrote the Back to Basics book, and also of the beliefs
that led the Back to Basics people to devise their method of working through
the
twelve steps. With apologies to Johnny, I have shortened his message a
little
bit, to focus on the historical facts rather than matters of opinion and
interpretation.

But the book does claim to be based on one interpretation of early AA
principles
and methods, so there are legitimate historical questions involved. At
various
points in the past, our group has looked at other modern books making
statements
about matters of AA history, where we have tried to see what kind of facts
were
actually involved.

Back to Basics is a modern book, not a book written back during the early
days
of AA.

Their belief that the steps must be worked through quickly is based
primarily on
a story in the Big Book: "He Sold Himself Short" (Big Book 3rd ed. p. 292,
4th
ed. p. 263). To be fair though, there is other evidence supporting Wally's
view
that in the few years after AA began in 1935, newcomers were put the steps
very
soon after they came in. By going through the steps we mean shorter versions
of
what would later become the twelve steps.

Johnny H. leaves out the importance of the Detroit/Washington D.C. Pamphlet,
also known as the Table Mate or Table Leaders Guide. As far as I can see,
Wally
P. copied all of this early AA pamphlet out verbatim into his book, such
that it
is this material which actually lays at the heart of his approach to
teaching
the steps.

Wally's book has been extremely controversial within AA ever since it came
out.
A good deal of the controversy has arisen over the insistence in the book
that
all twelve steps need to be taken right there at the very beginning, or else
(the Back to Basics people argue) hardly anyone is going to get sober.
Controversy also exists over their insistence that if you do it their way,
50%
of the newcomers will get sober the first time around, and an additional 25%
will eventually get sober after having a slip, just like in early AA during
the
first few years. Or some sort of extremely high success rate anyway, much
higher
(they claim) than any other modern methods.

PLEASE LET US NOT GET INVOLVED in these controversies in the
AAHistoryLovers.
Arguing the truth or falsity of things like this is not the purpose of this
group. Also, as moderator, I don't have time to answer all the emails from
all
of the 1,400 people in the group who have strong opinions either for or
against
the Back to Basics movement (grin). I just do not have the time, and do not
wish
to take sides on this issue anyway, on the AAHL Message Board.

I believe that at this point, we have covered the basic historical facts
(who
started the movement? when was it started? what kind of early AA documents
did
they base their theories on?). And we have given enough information for any
of
our members who are interested to do further private research on this if
they
wish to.

And asking for a discussion of the basic facts is a perfectly legitimate
historical question. We don't duck questions simply because they are
controversial, and we never have.

Beyond this point however, I think we had better move on to some other
historical question, because past this point we will be talking opinion for
the
most part rather than fact.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

____________________________

If you do want to discuss any of these issues further however, please send
your
emails directly to:

Rotax Steve <gallery5@mindspring.com> (gallery5 at mindspring.com) author of
Message 2823 which asked the question.

Brian T. <SOBERONE12@YAHOO.COM> (SOBERONE12 at YAHOO.COM) who gave part of
the
answer in Message 2835.

Johnny H. <drofjoy@nc.rr.com> (drofjoyat nc.rr.com) the author of this
message.

Mary in Michigan <meggie1270@wideopenwest.com> (meggie1270 at
wideopenwest.com)
who is a strong supporter of Back to Basics.

Shakey Mike G. <Shakey1aa@aol.com> (Shakey1aa at aol.com) who believes
strongly
that the AAHistoryLovers should not be dealing with this question at all:
"Back
to basics deals with things other than alcohol. It is an outside issue."

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++++Message 2839. . . . . . . . . . . . More on AA beginners classes
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2005 8:55:00 PM

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From "t" tcumming@nc.rr.com

Glenn,

Thanks for your post on Minneapolis instructions for conducting AA beginners
classes. One word of caution though ... your post could very easily be
interpreted by newbie historians to mean that these were the instructions
used
all over in AA.
Unfortunately they were not. There are some past posts dealing with this
from a
couple years ago:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1158
- Akron's Guide to the 12 Steps

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1089
and http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1086
- Little Rock's approach

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1079
- Rochester's approach

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1078
- St.Paul's discussion groups

There are also a few other approaches presented in the Grapevine [not in the
AAHistoryLovers group archives]:

June 1945, "Education Plan", St. Louis' version

July 1945, "What Constitutes a Good Sponsor, As Minneapolis Sees It"

Oct 1945, "Chicago's Neighborhood Gps"

June and July 1947, "Analysis of 12th Step Work", presents a N.Y.
perspective in
two parts.

___________________

FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn C.):

One of these messages in particular bears re-posting here, because it shows
another example of the four-class pattern that seems to have been used in a
number of places in the United States during the early AA period. This was
not
the only way of introducing newcomers to the AA program (see the other
messages
cited by tcumming above) but it was frequently followed.

The AA group in ST. PAUL, MINNESOTA, wrote the Grapevine in December 1945
describing the way they taught their beginners lessons. Like perhaps the
majority of the AA groups of that period, they devised their own set of
beginners lessons, but they acknowledge that they received help from reading
the
Detroit/Washington D.C. Pamphlet, along with "other sources" which they
unfortunately do not mention.

___________________

MESSAGE 1078:

From: tcumming Date: Tue Jun 10, 2003
Subject: Grapevine, December 1945, St. Paul's Four Discussion Groups

Grapevine, December 1945, pg 57-8.

St. Paul's Four Discussion Groups
A Method of Outlining AA to New Members

(Continuing the series outlining the various plans and methods followed by
different groups throughout the country.)

The present plan of discussion for new members in the St. Paul group, with
modifications during use, has been in operation for seven months. At its
inception, about a dozen persons interested in the work met and formulated a
tentative plan based on the experience of one of the squads and the material
presented in the Washington, DC, pamphlet and obtained from other sources.

Four discussions covering the AA program were outlined. Two members for each
of
these prepared and presented their discussions before the remainder of the
group.

Critical attention to these "previews" enabled each individual to reorganize
or
rewrite his discussion so that it would contain what the group as a whole
considered an adequate presentation of the subject on the basis of their
collective experience and what they knew of experiences elsewhere.

In general, the plan is to cover the AA program as clearly, concisely and
completely as possible in four 45 minute discussions, with time for
questions at
the end of each. The arrangement of the club rooms permits all four
discussions
to be presented at one time, each in a separate room, every Wednesday
evening.
New members are urged to attend all of the sessions in the proper order. It
is
emphasized each time that the discussions are not to replace any other AA
activity, but to supplement them and to serve as an outline into which the
new
member can fit his past experiences, his present objectives and his progress
toward these objectives.

At every meeting the three objectives of AA are kept before the group:

1. To attain and maintain the FACT OF SOBRIETY.
2. To RECOVER from those things which caused us to drink.
3. To HELP OTHERS who want what we have.

By adherence to simplicity in concept and in presentation in all
discussions, we
try to give aid to the new member in understanding how to progress toward
these
objectives. attendance at discussions indicates the fact of sobriety, so
that
the emphasis is placed on a Program of Recovery. Each of the 12 Steps is
considered in respect to its place in the whole program rather than for its
value per se. The four discussions are integrated each time by brief review
of
what was covered before and preview of what is to be the content of
discussion
to follow.

Questions are encouraged at the end of the discussions and frequently
require as
much time as the discussion. Some attempt is made to consider questions of
general interest here, while other questions seem best referred to
discussion
with the sponsors or others who may be better able to give help on them.

Older members also are urged to attend discussions and many do attend. Their
contributions in the question period are very valuable. The plan in the
present
stage of evolution seems to show sufficient improvement over earlier methods
to
justify its approval for another six-month period. It is our hope that we
can
continue to progress in this as one of the ways of helping others.

Discussion No.1: The Admissions:

1. The admission of alcoholism, as a result of our experiences with it -
what we
are and how did we get that way.
2. The admission that we want to do something about it - the qualifications
for
AA membership.
3. The belief that we can obtain help - which is not debatable. A brief
outline
of the purpose and scope of the discussions is stated. A brief history of AA
and
a statement of the motives, methods and scope is made. A short consideration
of
what constitutes an alcoholic and a statement of alcoholism as a disease,
along
with the progress in public thinking about alcoholics and alcoholism, are
included. The objectives in AA membership are pointed out and certain
mechanisms
for getting over the tough spots are mentioned.

This material is covered by each of the persons giving this discussion
according
to his own methods and is varied to meet the needs of the group present so
far
as possible. At the end, each new member is given a small card. On one side
of
this card is a list of the activities at the club rooms for each night of
the
week, with the address of the club rooms. At the top is a reminder - "I made
a
24-Hour Deal Today," at the bottom - "Easy Does It."

On the reverse side of the card is an outline of the Program of Recovery,
which
is also the outline of the discussions. Space is provided for the name and
telephone number of the sponsor and co-sponsor. The new member is also given
a
single sheet of information about the St. Paul group and other brief
information
which may be of value to him.

Discussion No. II: Inventory and Restitution:
The steps concerned with inventory are read and discussed with regard to
what
constitutes an inventory, how to go about it and when to do it. Emphasis is
on
honesty, thoroughness, clear thinking and "follow through" in practicing the
10th Step. Restitution is approached in the same fashion and the steps
concerned
are discussed as means to an end. The 5th Step is mentioned as a further aid
in
self-understanding and as a way to do something about our character
analysis.

Discussion No. III: Spiritual Aspects of the Program:
Steps 2, 3, 5, 7 and 11 are read and discussed in their relation to our
objectives to the remainder of the program. Open mindedness, tolerance and
personal understanding of A Higher Power are stressed as essential to
progress
in this part of the program.
"Easy Does It" is the watchword in this discussion.

[Discussion No. IV]
The 12th Step is used as the basis of a summary of the Program of Recovery,
as
our "insurance" in AA and as a way of living in keeping with normal human
behavior and experience.
The three parts of the 12th Step are discussed separately.
1. Spiritual experience is discussed as sudden conversion to a new way of
life
or the more common result of the cumulative effects of all experiences in
working at the program which result in a personality change. Continuance of
spiritual experience is emphasized.
2. Making calls on prospective members is cited as only one of the things
considered in working with others. Personal aggrandizement, zeal to reform
and
increased membership are discussed as unsuitable reasons for making calls.
Sincerity of purpose in helping others, humility in the knowledge of our own
power to help, and confidence in our understanding of our capacities in AA
are
indicated as states of mind likely to help in working with others.
3. The last part of the 12th Step is discussed as a way of life that
encompasses
our motives, our methods and our accomplishments in AA. It insures
continuance
of sobriety, happiness in what we do and peace of mind in the knowledge that
we
are progressing in our Program of Recovery with the help of a "Power greater
than ourselves."

L.S.L., St. Paul, Minn.

Copyright (c) by the AA Grapevine, Inc.; reprinted with permission.

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++++Message 2840. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Recently auctioned copy of the
Big Book ms.
From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2005 2:08:00 AM

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In regards to the auctioned multilith.....
It was sold June 2004 at Sotheby's (the 18th, I believe) for 1,576,000 US
Dollars and went on the block with an expected ask price of 300-500,000. I
have
several photocopied pages and it was sold with a presentation leaf by Lois
Wilson,
"I joyfully give this multilith copy of the AA book, one of my most precious
possessions to, dear Barry, as evidence of
my deep gratitude for all you have done for AA, Al-Anon, and particularly
for
me.......1/1/78." It was listed as 161 pages
3 handwritten in pencil by several different hands with annotations in lead,
green and red pencil.

There are a lot of edits made to the text, including dozens of examples
changing
"you to we" ( You can exercise your will power along this line.....becomes
........We can exercise our willpower along this line) many different
revisions
to the text
in a number of hands. There are also extensive margin notes with entire
sentences that were eventually changed or
revised and even suggestions or considerations for approval. For example, in
the passages referring to step 11 where
the text states in this copy....."Being still inexperienced and making Your
contact with God......... has an arrow drawn
and extended to the margin with the question "Will they ever?" There is a
handwritten annotation at the bottom of this page that says a particular
passage
is "entirely too groupy."

I do not know whose it was originally or if it was the copy that did go to
the
printer, but it seems likely with ALL the edits,
it was....or it was retyped or transcribed for that purpose. There appears
to
be an enormous amount of work and effort by many people put into changes on
this
copy. It may be possible for me to get further information on this copy for
interested
parties

In Service With Gratitude
Chuck Parkhurst

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++++Message 2841. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Member in good standing
From: Lance Weldgen . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2005 9:58:00 PM

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Lance Weldgen <lance_1954@yahoo.com> (lance_1954 at yahoo.com)
Sure ... I've heard may speakers us the phrase "a member in good standing"
at
many speaker meetings ... used mostly but not all by older AA members.
HUGS!!! Lance from colorful Colorado!
______________________________
Donna Bridges <hrgirl10181@...> wrote:
In the late 80's I heard more than a few speakers at conventions use that
phrase. Best I remember, it went ... "My name is Joe and I'm a member in
good
standing of AA. I can say that because I have a sponsor, a home group and I
work
the steps as written in the Big Book," or words to that effect.
______________________________
From: "Jim S." <james.scarpine@verizon.net> (james.scarpine at verizon.net)
When I got sober, in the early seventies, Quite a few of the local
members would introduce themselves as "Joe Blow, an alcoholic and a
member in good standing of XYZ Group." The explanation I got was that
they were active in their home group, serving at whatever level they
were asked, honored group commitments, made Twelfth Step calls, etc.
Jim S.
______________________________
From: jocisoo7@aol.com (jocisoo7 at aol.com) Date: Tue Nov 15, 2005
That sounds like division. And that person in my estimation, is violating
the
spirit of the 1st tradition. And also one of the three Legacies (Unity).

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++++Message 2842. . . . . . . . . . . . Helping hearing impaired alcoholics
From: Robert S N . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2005 5:42:00 PM

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About three months ago I had the privilege to speak at the first AA
Group in London, England, for the Hard of Hearing and Deaf with
professional signers paid for by a local Intergroup. It was very
emotional. One lady, sober six years, got to share for the very first
time in sobriety. There was also a loop for hearing aids. The people
with hearing aids said it was the first time they had been able to hear
everything said at a meeting. It was a great evening and hopefully it
will grow from strength to strength.
Robert S nelson

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++++Message 2843. . . . . . . . . . . . Who brought AA to the UK
From: tjsyed . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2005 12:14:00 PM

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Obviously we know that AA grew rapidly in the early days, but how did it
come to
the UK? Did an American working here set up a group? Obviously at that time
trans Atlantic communications were pretty minimal so I am curious to know
about
the early stages in this country.

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++++Message 2844. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Greenwich CT to Montclair NJ
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2005 9:18:00 PM

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-Dear jlobdell

This train information is extremely helpful. Until now I've been
unable to find this information. Please let me ask a few more
questions regarding what seem like today would involve walking some
very long distances.

1) What would be the mass transit routes from Brooklyn Heights to the
Newark Penn. Station? I'm looking for Bill's route to the 9-11 Hill
St. office until July of 1938 and from then until 1940 to the 17-19
William Street Calumet building (both of which are reasonably close to
Penn Station. Again they may have been using another Newark Station
like the one presently serviced by the merged Erie and Lackawana roads.

2) Second, what would have been the route there from Montclair? Hank
and Kathleen moved into the Montclair home in 1937. They were joined
by Lois and Bill in the spring of 1939 and Jim B. at a time unknown.
The destinations would be the same as #1 above.

3) In the very early summer Bill and Lois were offered the place by
the family of Chrys (as Lois refered to Horace C.) at Greenpond, NJ.
Greenpond is still in a pristine forested area of Northern New Jersey.
(Its in a gated community at present). The closest train station was
Newfoundland NJ which Lois reported in her diary was a four mile walk.
Do you know the train line from there to Newark? This was the 3 months
immediately after the first 1000 books were bound (according to the
Cornwall reciept I posted) and when they left they had no fixed home
until Stepping Stones. This seems to have been a very happy time for
Lois as the diary entries are very long and serene. Most of them
appear in Lois Remembers.

Thank you again for this info.

-merton

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@h...>
wrote:
>
> Merton -- A few more details. In 1939 Greenwich CT was on the New
> York New Haven & Hartford RR coming into Grand Central Station in
> NYC. Montclair NJ was either on the Lackawanna (Delaware,
> Lackawanna & Western RR) or the Erie RR (not the Erie-Lackawanna, a
> merged road created in the 1950s, if my memory serves me). If on
> the Lack, the train for Montclair left from the Lackawanna terminal
> in Hoboken NJ; if on the Erie, from the Erie terminal in Jersey City
> NJ. Both were reachable from NYC by the Hudson "tubes" (Hudson &
> Manhattan RR, now PATH), either from 33rd Street (Penn Station) or
> from Hudson Terminal (under the former site of the World Trade
> Center). One could also take the ferry from lower Manhattan. Both
> tube trains stopped at Exchange Place (Jersey City) so one could
> switch from a Hoboken-bound train to a Jersey City-bound train. To
> get to the West Side subways from Grand Central one took the shuttle
> and then walked to either the 7th Avenue IRT or the 8th Avenue IND
> line. The point is, to take a train from Greenwich CT to Montclair
> NJ one would leave the New Haven RR at GCT, walk past several bars
> to the shuttle, get off, walk to one of the West Side subways (I
> don't recall whether there were any bars there), take the subway to
> either 33rd St or Hudson Terminal, walk past a couple of bars there,
> go to either Hoboken or JC (whichever it was), walk past at least
> one bar there, and get on the commuter train to Montclair. The
> longer-distance Erie and Lack trains (Port Jervis Express on the
> Erie, for example) had bar cars, but most of the trains didn't --
> but the terminals had very quick and efficient bars right where you
> came up out of the tubes. Your point stands -- in fact, it's a
> little stronger than you stated it. Btw, on the subject of Marty in
> 1939, who is "Grenny"?
>

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++++Message 2845. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Greenwich CT to Montclair NJ
From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/14/2005 7:37:00 PM

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After reading Jared Lobdell's list of the suburban commuter trains available
in 1939, I'm wondering if AA would ever have gotten off the ground in NYC
without the city's extensive public transportation systerm - trains,
subways, and buses. Even today, most people there prefer to get around
without a car.

Regarding Marty Mann's first AA meeting on April 11, 1939: On Dr Tiebout's
orders, she took the train from Greenwich into New York, then a cab to the
Mahers' on Sutton Place. After dinner they all went via subway to Brooklyn
Hts to the Wilsons'.

"Grenny" (Grennie) was Grenville Curtis, a patient already at Blythewood
when Marty arrived at the beginning of July 1938. Marty brought him into AA
right after her initial AA meeting, so he was one of the very early members.
He helped found the first AA men's meeting. In May 1940 Grennie married
Chris Mann, Marty's next-youngest sister. They were divorced after a few
years, and she remarried in 1948.

Grennie moved to Nantucket, and he became a noted watchmaker. He, too,
remarried and had several children.

For more stories about Grennie and Marty, and the many fascinating people
she knew and helped, please see
A BIOGRAPHY OF MRS. MARTY MANN: THE FIRST LADY OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of
Mrs. Marty Mann Board
Certified Clinical Chaplain The First
Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
United Church of Christ
www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 12:07 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Greenwich CT to Montclair NJ

> Merton -- A few more details. In 1939 Greenwich CT was on the New
> York New Haven & Hartford RR coming into Grand Central Station in
> NYC. Montclair NJ was either on the Lackawanna (Delaware,
> Lackawanna & Western RR) or the Erie RR (not the Erie-Lackawanna, a
> merged road created in the 1950s, if my memory serves me). If on
> the Lack, the train for Montclair left from the Lackawanna terminal
> in Hoboken NJ; if on the Erie, from the Erie terminal in Jersey City
> NJ. Both were reachable from NYC by the Hudson "tubes" (Hudson &
> Manhattan RR, now PATH), either from 33rd Street (Penn Station) or
> from Hudson Terminal (under the former site of the World Trade
> Center). One could also take the ferry from lower Manhattan. Both
> tube trains stopped at Exchange Place (Jersey City) so one could
> switch from a Hoboken-bound train to a Jersey City-bound train. To
> get to the West Side subways from Grand Central one took the shuttle
> and then walked to either the 7th Avenue IRT or the 8th Avenue IND
> line. The point is, to take a train from Greenwich CT to Montclair
> NJ one would leave the New Haven RR at GCT, walk past several bars
> to the shuttle, get off, walk to one of the West Side subways (I
> don't recall whether there were any bars there), take the subway to
> either 33rd St or Hudson Terminal, walk past a couple of bars there,
> go to either Hoboken or JC (whichever it was), walk past at least
> one bar there, and get on the commuter train to Montclair. The
> longer-distance Erie and Lack trains (Port Jervis Express on the
> Erie, for example) had bar cars, but most of the trains didn't --
> but the terminals had very quick and efficient bars right where you
> came up out of the tubes. Your point stands -- in fact, it's a
> little stronger than you stated it. Btw, on the subject of Marty in
> 1939, who is "Grenny"?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2846. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Talk to, about and for yourself
From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2005 3:36:00 AM

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This is actually a little amusing. I'm pretty sure Henrik asked
because we here in Denmark discuss whether we should have that
statement when we open our meetings or not:-)

Our primary purpose is to pass the messsage to the still suffering
alcoholic. As I see it, the problem is that if I *only* talk to
myself, how can I pass the message? If I *only* talk about myself,
how can I pass the message and experience of the first 100 in the Big Book?

On the other hand I think we shall avoid giving each other "good"
advices.

Warm regards
Bent
____________________________

Bent is writing in response to a message from Henrik R. in Denmark, who
wrote:

<henrik.rue@edb.dk> (henrik.rue at edb.dk)

"At many meetings in Denmark an expression like this is used: 'we remind you
to
talk for, about and to yourself.' I wondered if this is a totally local
expression or if it is used elsewhere too.

My best
Henrik Rue, Denmark
____________________________

From: Wendi Turner <wenditurner@earthlink.net> (wenditurner at
earthlink.net)
Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005

-- Sorta a reminder to share one's own experience, strength & hope and not
"cross-share" in a meeting, yes?

That's how I'm interpreting it. Nice.
____________________________

From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, USA) <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc
at
sbcglobal.net)

In good old time AA, whenever one AA group discovered something or wrote
something that was helpful to recovering alcoholics (and useful to running
good
AA meetings), it was automatically assumed that any other AA group could
borrow
it and use it on an experimental basis, in order to see if it would also
work
for them. That was the way a good deal of our historic AA heritage actually
developed. That was a principle which was totally approved of by the central
AA
office in New York City (where Bill W. and the other people there stated
this
principle frequently back in those days).

Another important early AA principle was that each group was autonomous and
could decide for itself what to read at the beginning of meetings, and how
speakers should introduce themselves, and other formalities of that sort.
There
is still an enormous diversity on that sort of thing, not only the different
parts of the United States and Canada, but also within the AA groups even in
a
single city.

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++++Message 2847. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who brought AA to the UK
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2005 4:25:00 PM

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Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Who brought AA to the UK

Excerpt from unpublished AA World HIstory Manuscript by Bob P. (1985)

Great Britain: England. Scotland and Wales

Although for several years a few individuals in England had tried to achieve
sobriety through correspondence with the A.A. service office in New York, it
was a traveling American member's need to find fellow-alcoholics that led to
the first A.A. meeting in England. The American was Grace 0., who had
obtained the names from G.S.O. and had written them in advance, arranging a
meeting. Grace also met another woman member from California on the way over
on the boat, and met a Canadian member by chance in a SOHO restaurant when
she ordered coffee instead of a cocktail. The first meeting took place, with
five people present, in Grace O.'s room at the Dorchester Hotel on March 31,
1947. Bob B., the Canadian, who was elected secretary of the newly-formed
group, wrote New York, "Grace was the spark we needed."

Meetings were held thereafter in cinemas, restaurants, coffee shops and
members' homes. The members decided to advertise and drew up a small ad:
"Alcoholism -- A small body of anonymous ex-sufferers place themselves at
the disposal of any requiring help; the offer is quite gratuitous."

Then came the shock! Fifteen national newspapers refused to run the ad,
thinking it a fraud! Even when one paper asked how requests for help would
be dealt with, and received an explanation of the A.A. program, it was
unconvinced. Only one newspaper, the Financial Times, accepted the ad. It
brought only two replies, both from out-of-town.

In the autumn of 1948, the First London group was formed with about a dozen
members and began meeting in a room on Cavendish Square. Soon afterward,
they began to produce a monthly newsletter. Contact had by now been made
with several Loners outside of London, and in December '48, the first group
of about five members commenced in Manchester.

Also in 1948, John M., a Britisher who had found A.A. while stationed in
Washington, D.C., returned to the town of Mickleton, Gloucestershire, and
held meetings with alcoholics seeking help. These included Donald from
Stow-on-the-Wold, who sobered up; Tani W. (another returnee from U.S. A.A.);
James R. from Tewkesbury; and Bill S. from Bampton. A group was set up in
Cheltenham in 1951. Bristol organized its first A.A. group in 1953, with Dr.
Jim, Freddie, Bob and Leslie (they were very anonymous in those days!). The
group met first at the Full Moon pub, next at the Royal Hotel, and then at
Berkeley Square. Notable early members were John M. from Bath, Teddy T., and
Frank H.S. A public meeting, with press coverage was held in Bristol in
1954. 'By 1957, the first woman member to stay sober, Daisy N., and Travers
C. joined the Bristol group. A group formed in Bath in 1955.

Cheltenham was the site of the First English Convention in 1956, with
Sackville M. and Richard P. of Ireland as speakers. Hospital groups and
prison groups started in the west of England at about this time. A second
Bristol group was formed in June 1964; secretary, Travers C., who was by now
extremely active in A.A. affairs at the regional and national level,
including the formation of the Southwest Intergroup (SWIG!) the same year.
Four years later he was the moving force behind the launching of "Bristol
Fashion," a monthly unofficial journal for A.A.'s published by the Bristol
Akron group. He was inspired by, and was assisted by, Sackville M., Travers'
sponsor and famous editor of "The Road Back." "Bristol Fashion" has been
enthusiastically received throughout the world ever since.

Bristol was the site of the first European Convention of A.A. ever
attempted, September 22-25, 1971, with an attendance of about 500. Among the
highlights were a reception by the Lord Mayor, the presence of Apostolic
Delegate to Great Britain as an honored speaker, and a nondenominational
memorial service for Bill W. at the Bristol Cathedral, at which Bob H., from
G.S.O./New York gave a moving address. (As a result of the Apostolic
Delegate's participation, Sackville and Travers were invited to Rome in
January for a private audience as A.A. members with Pope Paul.) Although not
billed again as a "European Convention," a "Reunion in Bristol," a weekend
get-together, has been held annually 1972-74 and 1981-present.

In March 1974, the Newcomers group was formed separately, an offshoot from
the Bristol Akron group. Always an active and spirited group, it became a
cause celebre in 1976 when it withdrew from the U.K. service structure
because of disagreement with an action by the General Service Office that no
member could hold group offIce or a service position if he was employed in
the field of alcoholism. The group invoked their "right of appeal" under the
Fifth Concept, but was denied by the General Service Board. So the Newcomers
group continued on an autonomous basis without being listed in the U.K.
directory. Ten years later, the General Service Conference for Great Britain
revoked the restrictive and objectionable policy.

Meanwhile, A.A. had taken root in Scotland. An alcoholic from Glasgow wrote
New York in 1946 and found sobriety as a Loner. The following year, a
gentleman farmer from Campbelltown with a history of drinking traveled to
the U.S. to attend a Christian Association Conference, hoping to find a
solution to his problem. At the Conference, he met a woman who introduced
him to A.A. Deeply impressed, he quit drinking. On returning to Scotland, he
began to devote almost all his time to carrying the message, visiting
hospitals, prisons and wherever he could find drunks. A few of those he
contacted started small meetings in their homes in Glasgow and Edinburgh.

However, knowing little about the Fellowship, they had many difficulties.
Early in 1949, they had a visit from an American member with longer
sobriety, and between his experience and the undaunted enthusiasm of the
gentleman farmer, the first two organized groups were established in May
1949. These were: Glasgow Central, meeting at St.Enoch's Hotel; and First
Edinburgh, meeting at Mackie's Restaurant on Princes Street. Groups were
then formed at Perth, Ayr, Dundee and Larbert, Stirlingshire --leading in
time to the formation of the Scottish Intergroup Committee.

In 1953, a Loner in Dumfries, Scotland, wanted to establish a group there.
At his request, a number of English members from Midland and Manchester
decided to hold a meeting in the town. Invitations went out to Scottish
groups in the form of a mock challenge, saying the English were once more
invading Scotland, and asking the Scots to rally to the old border war cry,
"Bluebonnets over the Border!" As a result, an amazing weekend of sharing
took place and has been repeated annually until the present time as "The
Bluebonnets Gathering". It was the forerunner of all other English and
Scottish Conventions. Perhaps the best known ambassador for the Bluebonnet
Gatherings and for Scottish A.A. was Jack McG. from Glasgow. A former
vaudeville hoofer, small, dapper and bursting with enthusiasm, Jack McG.
visited the U.S. annually and attended A.A. conventions and get togethers
wherever he could find them. He was particularly proud to have spoken,
replete in his kilts, on the "A.A. Around the World" meeting during the 40th
Anniversary International Convention in Denver.

The first known meeting of a group in Wales took place April 13, 1951, in a
room in Cathedral Road, Cardiff. Four alcoholics from South Wales and one
from Ireland attended. The group did not last, but a new Cardiff group
formed in '60, closely followed by a group in Caerlon. By '54, there was a
nucleus of a group in North Wales meeting in members' homes in Corwen,
Berngor and Llanduduo.

Bill and Lois W. visited groups in England and Scotland in the summer of
1950, speaking at several meetings. At a specially convened meeting of group
representatives, Bill presented 1,500 copies of the Big Book as a gift from
the Alcoholic Foundation, the sale of which was to assist in the growth and
development of A.A. in Great Britain. This triggered a succession of
salutary moves. To manage the distribution of the books and the resulting
income, a separate Pre-Foundation committee was formed, consisting of five
of the very early members. By 1952, this committee was expanded to include
well established members from England, Scotland and Ireland. The following
year the committee was incorporated as the Publishing Company. To provide
necessary services to the growing Fellowship, a Group Representatives'
Committee was formed March 16, 1951, with broad responsibilities. Within
this body, a Central Committee of five members was given specific
responsibility for upholding the Traditions, the functioning of the London
Service Office and liaison between groups in Britain and the Alcoholic
Foundation in New York. The London Service Office opened at 11 Redcliffe
Gardens, London, in February 1952 (having previously operated out of the
office of one of the early members at the London Fruit Exchange).

The rate of growth that followed was: 1954, 45 groups in England; late '50'
s, 100 groups in England and Wales, 30 in Scotland; '64, 250 groups; '68,
300 groups. As the number of groups multiplied, the first Intergroup formed
in 1957 in Northwest England and a District Intergroup was established in
Glasgow. Great Britain Intergroups are an integral part of the General
Service Structure and the General Service Conference, a system which has
encouraged a wide base of support from the groups and has served A.A. well.
Great Britain's first General Service Conference was held in October 1966. A
national A.A. magazine in the general format of the Grapevine, called Share,
began publication in October 1972.

In 1985, there were 2,000 groups in Great Britain with a total estimated
membership of 27,000.

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++++Message 2848. . . . . . . . . . . . FW: What is the history of Alano
clubs?
From: david jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2005 12:42:00 PM

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From david-jones and Arkie Koehl:

Hi Alf,

This maybe slightly away from what you are enquiring. But I've wondered if
the
following extract from the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, could be
considered
the birth of maybe the idea for Al-anon and various other 12 Step groups.

''A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more.
Seeing
much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not
shelter
a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly
thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer. In
addition to
these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night a
week
for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual
way
of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to
provide
a time and place where new people might bring their problems.
Outsiders became interested. One man and his wife placed their large home at
the
disposal of this strangely assorted crowd. This couple has since become so
fascinated that they have dedicated their home to the work. Many a
distracted
wife has visited this house to find loving and understanding companionship
among
women who knew her problem, to hear from the lips of their husbands what had
happened to them, to be advised how her own wayward mate might be
hospitalized
and approached when next he stumbled.''
Pg 159-160 A VISION FOR YOU

God bless
Dave

<david-jones2@amserve.com> (david-jones2 at amserve.com)
______________________________

From: Arkie Koehl <arkie@arkoehl.com> (arkie at arkoehl.com)
Subject: What is the history of Alano clubs?

They're simply physical venues (clubhouses) established and maintained by AA
members as individuals, usually the for purpose of housing AA meetings. They
are
not affiliated with AA. They charge rent to the meeting groups and hope to
break
even. Some of the larger ones can hold dances and other social functions if
the
AA members wish.
Arkie

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++++Message 2849. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: 8th printing 1st edition
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2005 7:48:00 AM

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RESPONSES FROM Arthur Sheehan, Tom Hickcox, C. Cook, and Hugh D. Hyatt

PREVIOUS MESSAGE 2816 from "C. Cook" <ccp28para4@yahoo.com> (ccp28para4 at
yahoo.com)
Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005
Yes I have seen an 8th printing first edition; it's sitting in my lap right
now.
My friend let me borrow it. From what I understand, it's smaller because
they
were conserving paper because we were in a state of war at that time.
There are only two appendices in this book. The second appendix has no
title,
though it is the one that speaks of "spiritual experience." In this
particular
printing the "contempt prior to investigation" quote is not present.
______________________________

PREVIOUS MESSAGE 2832 from "tsirish1" <tsirish1@yahoo.com> (tsirish1 at
yahoo.com)
Date: Fri Nov 11, 2005
I am confused. You say that there are two Appendices in your copy of the 1st
Edition? I thought the Spiritual Experience wasn't added until 1955. When
was it
added?
______________________________

RESPONSE FROM ARTHUR SHEEHAN
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the
1st
edition Big Book. The term “spiritual experience” was changed to
“spiritual
awakening” and “as the result of these steps” was changed to “as the
result of
those steps” (it was changed back to “these steps” in the 2nd printing
of the
2nd Ed).

Other changes to the 2nd printing of the 1st edition were (1) the addition
of
Appendix II Spiritual Experience and (2) the story Lone Endeavor (of Pat C
from
CA) was removed.

The so-called “Herbert Spencer” quote was added to the Spiritual

Experience
appendix when the 2nd edition Big Book was published.

Cheers
Arthur
______________________________

RESPONSE FROM TOM HICKCOX
Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)

Go in the list's archives and look up message #2258. It carefully details
the
changes made from printing to printing of the First Editions, including
changing
the size of the 8th Printing, "- Reduced thickness 1/4, width 1/16, height 1
inch."

You will also find here that Appendix II was added to the Second Printing as
well as changing the wording of the 11th Step, substituting the word
"awakening"
for "experience". However, the "Spencer quote" does not appear here but in
the
story "An Artist's Concept" page 380. The "Spencer Quote" did not appear in
Appendix II until the Third Printing of the Second Edition.

And people will tell you there have been no changes in the Big Book . . . .
. .

Tommy H in Baton Rouge
______________________________

RESPONSE FROM C. COOK
"C. Cook" <ccp28para4@yahoo.com> (ccp28para4 at yahoo.com)

I have a reproduction of the original 1939 printing, a true 8th printing
1945
1st edition, and a 3rd edition. The very first printing did not have the
"spiritual experience" appendix. The 8th printing in '45 has the "spiritual
experience" appendix, but it is not titled. It just starts,"the terms
'spiritual
experience' and 'spiritual awakening' are used many times in this
book..........." The only heading it has is,"Appendix II." The appendix
before
that is "Appendix I, The Alcoholic Foundation," where there are directions
on
how to get in contact with AA (back then). I'm not sure when the second
appendix
was put there, but I do know that it was clearly prior to 1955.

Sorry that I can't be of further help.

C. Cook
______________________________

RESPONSE FROM HUGH HYATT
"Hugh D. Hyatt" <hughhyatt@bluehen.udel.edu> (hughhyatt at bluehen.udel.edu)

tsirish1 asked when the appendix on Spiritual Experience was added:

1st edition, 2nd printing.

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++++Message 2850. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who brought AA to the UK
From: Jean Cottel . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2005 8:02:00 PM

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I attended a meeting in the tiny town of Stonehaven in the Highlands of
Scotland
on the northeast coast several years back. The oldtimers there told me that
AA
came to that remote region from a US Armed Forces base that used to be
there,
Air Force I think? Anyone know about this?

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++++Message 2851. . . . . . . . . . . . Horace Chrystal (re: Greenwich CT to
Montclair NJ)
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2005 1:22:00 PM

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H Chrys is Horace Chrystal. He and his wife are in the only AA photograph
(circa
1941) I have showing both the cofounders and their wives as well as Ruth
Hock
and her boyfriend Tom Burrell of New York city (sober 3 1/2 years) and Bert
Taylor (sober 3 years).

Horace was sober 3 and 1/2 years,Bill was sober 7 years and Dr. Bob was
sober 6
Years.

The photograph was given to me by Harry the Wino and I believe it was
originally sent to Nell Wing by Eric Bergman.

Does anyone know when Dr. Bob and Ann Smith were in New York at a
picnic(1941
or 1942)?

The picture was found in a 1st Edition 2nd printing Big Book found in a
Seattle
Book store in 1974. The Book's inscription was copied and was given to GSO.
The
book was offered to GSO if they thought it would be useful for archives. It
belonged to Lindsay Moran and had a date of 7/20/1941. That was the date
according to the letter that AA first met in Seattle and therefore the
Pacific
Northwest.

I do not know if the book was forwarded to NY Archives.

Yours in Service,
Shakey mike G.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2852. . . . . . . . . . . . A split in Finland into two AA
structures
From: Soberholic . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2005 10:51:00 AM

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Hi everyone,

I'm a grateful sober alcoholic from Finland.

I have found a deep interest in A.A. history during last eight years
that Finnish A.A. has been split in two. Nobody still knows what
future will bring to us but this researcher has done a great job:

http://www.stakes.fi/nat/nat04/3/abstlep.htm

I'm so glad I found this group.

Yours truly,

soberholic

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++++Message 2853. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Horace Chrystal (re: Greenwich
CT to Montclair NJ)
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/19/2005 2:26:00 PM

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I wonder if that is the same photo found in the
collection at Stepping Stones. The negative I have was
identified as an outing in California but I could not
verify the location. Anne Smith is in the photo with a
cigarette dangling from her mouth.

(Moderator: There is a copy of that photo at
http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html)

> H Chrys is Horace Chrystal. He and his wife are in
> the only AA photograph (circa 1941) I have showing
> both the cofounders and their wives as well as Ruth
> Hock and her boyfriend Tom Burrell of New York city
> (sober 3 1/2 years) and Bert Taylor (sober 3
> years).
>
> Horace was sober 3 and 1/2 years,Bill was sober 7
> years and Dr. Bob was sober 6 Years.
>
> The photograph was given to me by Harry the Wino
> and I believe it was originally sent to Nell Wing by
> Eric Bergman.
>
> Does anyone know when Dr. Bob and Ann Smith were in
> New York at a picnic(1941 or 1942)?
>
> The picture was found in a 1st Edition 2nd printing
> Big Book found in a Seattle Book store in 1974. The
> Book's inscription was copied and was given to GSO.
> The book was offered to GSO if they thought it
> would be useful for archives. It belonged to
> Lindsay Moran and had a date of 7/20/1941. That was
> the date according to the letter that AA first met
> in Seattle and therefore the Pacific Northwest.
>
> I do not know if the book was forwarded to NY
> Archives.
>
> Yours in Service,
> Shakey mike G.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2854. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Who brought AA to the UK
From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/20/2005 11:30:00 PM

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The following is from the SHARE Magazine 1997

How it all started...........
The worldwide fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous came to Britain in 1947,
and the first meeting of any kind was on 30th March in the Dorchester Hotel
in London.

Just prior to this date a lady called Grace 0. and her husband sailed into
Southampton aboard one of the Cunard Queens. During the voyage they had met
two other members. In London Grace contacted a Canadian member, Bob, living
in the UK and between them they set up a meeting in her Dorchester Hotel
room.

After Grace departed back to the States, the little meeting continued in the
Dominion Cinema and later in Bob's home.

A poor response to an advertisement in the London Financial Times resulted
in only two inquires, and thus the few continued till late 1948 when the
first official meeting was set up at 11 Chandos Street. It was also in this
year that meetings started to be set up outside London and by May 1949 had
reached as far as Glasgow and Edinburgh. In 1951 the first Welsh meeting
started in Cardiff after a somewhat fitful start. The visit by Bill W and
his wife Lois in 1951 gave a big boost to the few scattered meetings which
by this time were growing in numbers, and soon a London Office of Alcoholics
Anonymous was opened at 11 Radcliffe Gardens, West Brompton, SW10.

The fellowship expanded and in 1960 celebrated 100 groups throughout the UK
and by 1970 were numbered 500. By 1981 the figure was 1500 groups and in
1985 had reached the 2000 mark. AA had been established in Akron, Ohio in
1935, so was then 50 years old.

The story of the American evolution of AA is a truly remarkable one. From
the seeking, by a relatively sober stockbroker alone in a strange city, of a
fellow sufferer, sprang the idea that one ex-drinker helping another could
result in neither of them picking up a drink. This is still the essence of
recovery within the fellowship of AA. Communication is everything. It was
one of the first significant events that occurred when Bill W., a New York
stockbroker met Doctor Bob S. in Akron Ohio in 1935, The long suffering
doctor allowed Bill just fifteen minutes of his time for a chat about their
respective alcoholic conditions. In fact the first meeting lasted five
hours. The essence of recovery was discovered that evening at the Doctor's
house. Just two men talking, comparing notes and experiences. From this
small beginning Bill was to see his life long friend Ebby T. and many others
get some recovery and thus the fellowship grew.

Bill's remarkable spiritual experience in a room in the Towns Hospital, New
York City a worthy of note. At the height of his alcoholic insanity, and
ensconced in this hospital, he experienced a tremendous upliftment when the
room was flooded with white light and a peace descended upon him. He knew
that there was something going on that he did not understand. When he
related this to the doctor in charge, William D. Silkworth, he could offer
Bill no explanation. He simply told Bill to hang on to it for dear life.
Bill was then 39 years of age and it was December 1934.

Doctor Silkworth was to become a valued friend and asset in recovery circles
in those days. His mild and accepting manner was that of a man who was
seeing history being made and, whilst not an alcoholic himself, appeared to
have a tremendous affinity for the sufferers of alcoholism around him. It
was a business trip in his newfound sobriety that found Bill in Akron. A
phone call to minister of a local church brought Bill and Bob together.
Their meeting, and subsequent seeking out of other sufferers, established
the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous and went on to expand throughout the
world. Doctor Bob was to see the first alcohol dependency hospital ward
opened in St.Thomas's Hospital, Akron in 1939.

In 1951 Bill Wilson and his wife Lois visited Britain and presented 1500
copies of the `Big-Book' - `Alcoholics Anonymous', to the newly formed
London Service Office. This gave a new impetus to the fellowship and his
travels, not only to Britain, but also throughout Europe, had a similar
effect. The development of the Spiritual Principles of AA was due in part
through the experiences of Bill's friend Ebby T. He had found through his
exposure to the teachings of the Oxford Croup in New York City, an
Evangelistic church, that his suffering from alcohol was eased somewhat. It
was this general experience, and Bill's singular experience in the hospital
room, that brought about the need for a `spiritual' component in the
fellowship. The foundation of this spiritual component was laid down during
Bill's military service. He was, whilst returning to the States from France,
encamped near Winchester, Hampshire, at the end of world war one, and
visited the magnificent cathedral there. He experienced what he called `a
presence' while inside the cathedral, and found himself reading the
inscription on a headstone in the graveyard.

Here sleeps in peace a Hampshire Grenadier,
Who caught his death by drinking cold small Beer,
Soldiers, be wise from his untimely fall,
And when yere hot, drink Strong or none at all,
An honest Soldier is never forgot,
Whether he die by Musket or by Pot.

It was later, in the Towns Hospital, shortly before his `spiritual
experience' that Bill referred to the time when he read the poem on the
headstone as `The time I nearly believed in God.' Bill had quite a struggle
with coming to terms with religion. His own upbringing, like so many of us,
set a certain stage. But he studied the religions of the world at length and
came to the conclusion that man made stuff was not for him. He did note,
however that all the religions seem to have urvived the centuries due to a
strong spiritual bond between their doctrines and God. He saw himself as
carrying a flag for AA at the time and anything he was to do would send
signals, perhaps of the wrong kind, to the AA membership. It was his
decision to adopt a wait and see policy, and would only urge, when
questioned, his recovering contemporaries to seek their own `Higher Power'.
This is still the case in AA today `A God of your own understanding.' It is
interesting to note that Bill, along with Lois and several others while
visiting Nantucket, had some wonderful spiritualism experiences. He was able
to verify `messages' he had received from departed local fishermen, with
local records. See `Pass It On' Chapter 16, page 275.

The Nantucket experiences were catalogued in his mind along with all the
other religious stuff.
There is no way in which the onlooker can generalise about personal
religious affiliation. What it common within the fellowship of AA is that
people can believe in a `Higher Power' and align themselves with no
organised religion or dogma, and enjoy a recovery from alcoholism. There is
a well known edict amongst the fellowship that the definition of an atheist
is, `A person who shouts for God just before his car hits a motorway
bridge.' It is documented in AA that, `There is a spark of divinity in all
of us.' How we choose to have that spark develop is a matter for individual
concern. But develop we must. What is patently obvious to the experienced
member of AA is that no amount of thrusting of ANY idea down the neck of
another, ever did them any good. It has to come from within the individual
based upon his or her experiences within recovery. Bill's writing of the
`Twelve Steps' in his Clinton Street home is seen as the laying down of the
`Spiritual Principles' of AA, and embodies his thoughts about religion and
his experience on drawing from certain individual men of the cloth with whom
he aligned himself. The programme of steps had to be comprehensive enough to
include all aspects of members personal beliefs, and still is today.

The `Twelve Traditions' also had to embody principles that would allow
people to conduct themselves in an individual manner while preserving the
sanctity of AA. Overall, a policy of non-alignment with any organisations,
religious or otherwise, had to be the case to allow all and anybody to come
through the doors of AA. It was 1938 when the Steps and Traditions were laid
down and adopted. So by the time the fellowship reached the shores of
Britain, the format of its existence and Procedures was firmly established.
Spreading from London northwards, 1949 saw the establishment of a meeting in
Manchester and a meeting in Stockport. Meetings were by now springing up all
over Britain as far as Glasgow and Edinburgh. A member from the Manchester
meeting brought AA to Liverpool in the same year and then to Birkenhead in
1955 at the Central Hotel, Borough Road. There followed, in the seventies,
six or seven meetings, and in the ighties, the same. AA has continued in
this vein and, to date, there are twenty meetings around Wirral.
With the advent of the recently implemented National Telephone Service, in
which Wirral played a pioneering role, whereby all areas are served by one
telephone number, the AA population is rising at an extraordinary rate. By
reaching the suffering alcoholic with our message, our secondary purpose is
being fulfilled.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tjsyed
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 9:15 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Who brought AA to the UK

Obviously we know that AA grew rapidly in the early days, but how did it
come to the UK? Did an American working here set up a group? Obviously at
that time trans Atlantic communications were pretty minimal so I am curious
to know about the early stages in this country.

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2855. . . . . . . . . . . . Where from? "We don''t drink one day
at a time"
From: jocisoo7@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2005 3:57:00 AM

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Did this slogan , phrase, or battlecry originate from Dr. Bob and Bill? "We
don't drink one day at a time." TRUE OR FALSE?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2856. . . . . . . . . . . . Grapevine contributor R.F.S.
(Montclair NJ)
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/23/2005 6:52:00 AM

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Does anyone know the identity of R.F.S. of Montclair, NJ who wrote for the
Grapevine in the 1940's? He (she?) contributed some very interesting
articles.

Thanks,
Cora

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++++Message 2857. . . . . . . . . . . . The Grapevine online
From: bern . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/24/2005 5:00:00 PM

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Just a note to say the Grapevine is available online including archives.

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++++Message 2858. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 1 of
3
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2005 9:24:00 AM

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AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 1 of 3

Commentary has been available on the web regarding the lawsuit filed
in Germany against an individual who persistently infringed upon AA
copyrights.

Regrettably, what has been posted on the web to date has been heavily
biased to portray the copyright infringer in somewhat of an innocent
martyr context and casting the General Service Boards and General
Service Offices of the US/Canada and Germany as vindictive
authoritarians. This latter portrayal constitutes slander.

Typically there is more than one viewpoint of a story. A series of
postings will be issued through AAHistoryLovers to offer the
explanation provided by AA's General Service Board Trustees to the
2004 General Service Conference Delegates.

The information below is an extract of the initial report presented to
the 2004 General Service Conference by the then Board Chair Dr Elaine
McDowell. She provides a summary of the history of the lawsuit in
Germany (which involved repeated copyright infringements upon AA
publications by a local citizen over a sustained period of time).

Two other reports were made to the 2004 General Service Conference and
they will be posted in sequence. A more detailed description of
actions related to this lawsuit will be in the other postings. There
is much duplication of the same information in all three postings.
Posting 3 provides the most definitive detail.
====================================================

[Abridged] General Service Board Report (2004 final report pg 23)

Elaine McDowell, PhD
Chair of the General Service Board

[. leading paragraphs unrelated to the lawsuit have been deleted].

Adrienne, Greg, and publications director Chris C. responded to
invitations to visit AA in Colombia, Nicaragua, Paris, and Vienna,
where they shared information on licensing, distribution, copyrights,
and production of AA literature. The three also attended the 12th
European Service Meeting in Frankfurt as observers, where discussions
centered on safeguarding the integrity of AA's written message in all
languages, in every country and structure throughout the world-values
that are rooted in our singleness of purpose, the cornerstone of AA
here and elsewhere.

Toward that end, your Publications Department is responsible for
overseeing translations of Conference-approved books. Alcoholics
Anonymous in Icelandic and Zulu; Daily Reflections in Italian and
Portuguese; Living Sober in Latvian and Greek; Swahili Twelve Steps
and Twelve Traditions; and As Bill Sees It in Italian have been
published since the 53rd General Service Conference last April.

Publications staff also maintains contact with General Service Offices
or committees in other countries to achieve accurate translations of
Conference-approved pamphlets. Among the pamphlets translated in the
last year are: Thai-language "Is AA for You?," "44 Questions," "A
Newcomer Asks," and "This is AA"; the Simplified Chinese version of "A
Newcomer Asks"; and, "Is AA For Me?" in German. Nearing completion are
several pamphlets in various languages spoken in India; "Questions and
Answers on Sponsorship"; "The AA Group," and "Understanding Anonymity"
in Latvian; and "The Twelve Steps Illustrated" in Inuktitut. In each
case, the translation reflects the original (English) manuscript, and
the practice of assuring that the basic AA message is tied to our
principles and primary purpose.

The General Service Board's role in observance of AA's singleness of
purpose occasionally necessitates difficult decisions or actions.
Since 1993, with the support of the General Service Conference and the
AAWS and Grapevine Boards, we addressed a serious challenge to
copyrights on AA literature, first granted to Bill W., and later
assigned by Bill to AAWS on behalf of the Fellowship as a whole.

Bill W. copyrighted the First Edition of our Big Book so that the text
could not be altered to suit individual views or interpretations not
fully considered by a representative group conscience. The General
Service Conference (U.S./Canada) has served as the effective group
conscience of AA as a whole since 1955 and adoption of the historic
resolution in St. Louis. (The AA Service Manual/Twelve Concepts for
World Services, pp. S89-90)

Most of you are aware that a German citizen undertook to publish and
distribute several Conference-approved books and pamphlets, first in
Germany and then in other countries. Our first contact with him
occurred in 1993. For more than four years, we and the General Service
Board of AA in Germany used every possible means of communication to
reason with him. Each contact was a sincere effort to persuade him
that unauthorized publications in the name of AA ignored principles
established by Bill W. and reflected in the Current Conference
Charter: "In countries where a General Service Structure exists, the
United States/Canada Conference will delegate sole right to publish
our Conference-approved literature to the General Service Board of
that structure."

For four years, we requested that he cease publishing unauthorized
literature in the name of AA Yet, he translated and distributed
Conference-approved books and pamphlets in several languages,
including Finnish, Hebrew, Russian, Spanish, and Swedish, as well as
German and English.

The effect in countries with new or struggling service structures was
profound. The unauthorized books created confusion within the
membership, were unconnected to the local service office or structure,
and raised concerns about the integrity of AA's simple message.
Unsolicited books arrived in local groups; AA members were confused
and distracted from the group's primary purpose. In some cases, Unity
was threatened.

Secondarily, a majority of AA service entities in other countries
depend on literature sales, as well as contributions, to support basic
services. Our friends in other countries looked to your structure for
they recognized the challenges to copyrights held in trust by AA World
Services (AAWS) for AA as a whole.

In November 1997, we realized that we had exhausted all avenues of

reason and/or negotiation. The German General Service Board and AAWS
initiated legal proceedings in Germany that sought to prevent further
publication and distribution of unauthorized literature. Our aim was
that the defendant would cease activities that fostered
misunderstanding and disunity.

Past General Service Board chairmen updated each succeeding General
Service Conference on progress of the German Court's considerations.
Throughout, trustees and directors were kept informed. Past chairmen
of our board, Jim Estelle and Gary Glynn, provided guidance, joined by
past chairman Michael Alexander, who has served on the board's Legal
Affairs Committee since its inception. (Established by Board Chairman
in 1999 to provide guidance on legal matters.)

Although, the German Court of Common Pleas ruled for the plaintiffs,
the German Board and AAWS in May 1999, the defendant appealed the
ruling, thus forcing a process that absorbed energy and resources over
four more years.

In October 2003, the Court of Appeals in Frankfurt decided the matter
in favor of AA, represented by the German General Service Board and
AAWS The defendant's claims were not allowed, and the court directed
that he cease producing and distributing Conference-approved books and
pamphlets in any language. The court affirmed the validity of
copyrights held in trust by AAWS, and recognized Bill W. as author of
Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's basic text.

The German Court decreed that the defendant must reimburse AAWS and AA
in Germany for legal expenses, including attorney fees. Early in 2004,
we and the German General Service Board offered the defendant an
opportunity to forgo reimbursement of legal costs and fees provided
the defendant does not publish or distribute Conference- approved
literature in any language or country, now or in the future, and
accepts all other stipulations in the court's order.

The defendant has not responded to our offer. Therefore, we have asked
that remedies stipulated in the Court's final order of October 2003 be
fulfilled by the defendant.

While these matters were before the court, we were constrained from
discussing relevant details. We promised past and present members of
the General Service Conference that we would report more fully when
the matter was concluded. Legal fees and related expenses over the
seven-year period, 1998 - 2004, totaled $227,707. In the process, we
drew on the experience and wisdom of AA's founders and early members,
as well as examples of self-sacrifice for the common welfare that you
and those before you exemplify.

We gain nothing financially from protecting foreign copyrights. We
receive no payments or financial benefits from any AA literature
published by other boards or service structures. Protecting copyrights
is a service we perform to help carry the message. We believe
protecting copyrights is of great benefit to AA worldwide because it
helps maintain the integrity of the message in our literature, and
because it helps other boards and offices to serve their groups. It is
also our legal duty as trustees.

Trustees, AAWS and Grapevine directors have no sense of victory or
accomplishment. Throughout, we have applied ourselves to the
principles handed down to us and to you. We recognized and faced our
responsibilities, and the supreme importance of protecting the
integrity and simplicity of Conference-approved literature, as well as
the message handed down from Dr. Bob, Bill W. and the first members.

My remarks on this matter, coupled with additional background, will be
made available to you during the Conference.

Your General Service Board continues to be led by a Power Greater than
any single trustee, delegate or group. Throughout the year, we have
been uplifted by the humility demonstrated by each newcomer who enters
an AA meeting, wishing, hoping, but not yet believing, that AA's
solution can push away the fog of alcoholism, and lead him or her to
the Sunlight of the Spirit.

We join you in looking upward to two significant gatherings. The 18th
World Service Meeting will take place in New York City this coming
October, where the theme will be "One Message-Many Languages-One
Fellowship." With hearts full of gratitude, we join you and AAs
everywhere in joyful anticipation of the Fellowship's 70th Anniversary
in Toronto, where we will come together for the 2005 International AA
Convention, and reaffirm "I Am Responsible."

During the 1995 General Service Conference, a trustee shared these
thoughts: "Not one of us is given a torch big enough to lead the
drunks of the world out of darkness and into the light. Instead, each
of us has been given a candle that burns for a short while with a
flickering flame. If we stand together, the light will outshine the
greatest torch. If we argue and bicker and blow at each other's candle
so that each of us starts shielding our own little flame, then the
alcoholics of the world will continue to suffer in darkness, and so
will we."

(Additional material regarding the German lawsuit is contained in the
two Board reports listed in the menu, entitled "Unity/Legacy
Challenge" and "Name/Message Challenge". ed)

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++++Message 2859. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 2 of
3
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2005 9:27:00 AM

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AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 2 of 3

Below is a more detailed description of events surrounding a copyright
infringement lawsuit that occurred in Germany. The information is part
of a supplemental board reports made to the 2004 General Service
Conference.

Footnote references are enclosed in brackets.
=======================================

Supplement to General Service Board Report

Alcoholics Anonymous: Our Name and Our Message

A.A. is a Fellowship based on spiritual principles expressed in the
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions. Around the world, A.A. groups have
but one purpose, to carry our message to the alcoholic who still
suffers. A.A.'s message was first published in the book Alcoholics
Anonymous (1939), and currently translated in more than 50 languages.
Each translation reflects the original, English text that first
described how A.A. works so that alcoholics can achieve and maintain
sobriety.

Our early members, including co-founders Dr. Bob and Bill W.,
recognized that A.A. must adhere to one purpose, and avoid
distractions or multi-purpose activities. Our founders decided to
publish a book describing the A.A. program; thus, the First Edition of
Alcoholics Anonymous was published in 1939. Bill W. wrote A.A.'s first
Big Book, incorporating ideas and suggestions solicited from other
early members. Our Fellowship gained its name from the book's title,
Alcoholics Anonymous.

Bill W. copyrighted the First Edition of our Big Book in 1939, and
initiated the practice of copyrighting translations in other
languages. [1] Had Bill not copyrighted the first English Big Book,
and subsequent books he authored, our basic text and message could
have been changed to reflect individual interpretations or views,
ideas not fully considered by a representative group conscience.

The First Edition of our Big Book was published by Works Publishing,
Inc. As early as 1938, Bill and other stockholders in Works Publishing
began to see that the book Alcoholics Anonymous should become the
property of A.A. as a whole. Subsequently, Bill and other shareholders
passed on their rights to A.A.'s book and namesake to our first
service board, The Alcoholic Foundation, Inc.

The Alcoholic Foundation established A.A. Publishing, Inc. to produce
and distribute A.A. Conference-approved literature, which is
copyrighted for the same reasons that Bill applied when he registered
the First Edition Big Book. In 1957, The Alcoholic Foundation became
The General Service Board of A.A., Inc. [2] whose Bylaws state "...
the Board has but one purpose, that of serving the Fellowship of
Alcoholics Anonymous." The General Service Board fulfills its purpose
through two operating corporations, A.A. Grapevine, Inc. and A.A.
World Services, Inc.(A.A.W.S.)[3]

The General Service Board's responsibilities include a firm moral and
spiritual obligation to continue policies that began with Bill W.,
when he urged that everyone in all corners of the world have a chance
to read the real Big Book. Bill made it clear that our Board, A.A.
World Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S.), was the owner of literature that he
wrote and copyrighted, and that translations should be made or
approved by us, and copyrighted.

On behalf of A.A. as a whole, we have been protecting copyrights from
challenge for more than thirty-five years. When we learn that one or
more of A.A.'s copyrights has been abridged, we communicate to
encourage the person or publisher to cease using our name and/or
adaptations of Conference-approved books or pamphlets. Over the years,
the great majority of instances when A.A.'s copyrights have been
misused or infringed have been resolved through communication. A few
times, when simple negotiations did not lead to cessation of
unauthorized publications, we had to engage legal counsel to explain
the validity of A.A.'s rights. Rarely have we found it necessary to
seek protection through the courts.

A.A. groups in Canada and the U.S. have supported and encouraged A.A.
World Services and the General Service Office (G.S.O.) so that
services and literature can reach small groups of A.A.'s in countries
where the Fellowship takes root. Group contributions have been
fundamental to A.A.'s spread in more than 150 countries around the
world.

Translations of Alcoholics Anonymous, other A.A. books and literature
are considered based on an expressed need for the A.A. message in
languages that can be read by alcoholics in other countries. Each
translation is carefully reviewed by professionals to assure that the
conversion adheres to the original, English version. An approved
translation may first be published by A.A.W.S. and shipped overseas
for distribution by the local service office.

When it's determined that an A.A. service board or publishing
committee in another country is able to publish and distribute one or
more translations, A.A.W.S., on behalf of the General Service Board
and General Service Conference, grants that A.A. entity a license
applicable to one or more titles. Thus, the service board or
publishing committee is granted the sole right to publish one or more
titles of A.A. Conference-approved, copyrighted literature.[4]

The General Service Board (U.S./Canada), A.A.W.S. and/or the A.A.
Grapevine gain nothing financially from protecting foreign copyrights.
We receive no payments or financial benefits from any A.A. literature
published by other boards or service structures. Protecting copyrights
is a service we perform to help carry the message. We believe
protecting copyrights is of great benefit to A.A. worldwide because it
assures the integrity of our message in A.A. literature, and because
it helps other boards and offices to serve their groups. It is also
our legal duty as Trustees.

World Service Meetings [5] have discussed A.A.'s copyrights and the
policy of licensing one board per country to publish and distribute
A.A. literature. Over the years, Delegates to the World Service
Meeting have concluded that we must protect the integrity of the A.A.
message as it is presented in our literature, and, that having a
common literature is important to maintaining unity in their
countries.

A number of times, the General Service Conference, U.S./ Canada, has
discussed the principles involved in protecting the integrity of
A.A.'s message, the importance of upholding copyrights, and
permissions granted to boards in other lands licensed to publish our
literature, including through approved translations. At no time has
the Conference demonstrated an inclination to alter or diminish those
policies based on established principles.

Since 1993, we have addressed a serious challenge to copyrights on
A.A. literature, granted to Bill W., and later assigned by Bill to
A.A.W.S. on behalf of the Fellowship as a whole.

Most of you are aware that the operator of a mail order book business
in Germany published and distributed several Conference-approved books
and pamphlets, first in Germany and subsequently, in other countries.
Our first contact with the individual occurred in 1993. For more than
four years, we and the General Service Board of A.A. in Germany used
every possible means of communication to reason with the individual.
Each contact was a sincere effort to persuade the man that his
publications in the name of A.A. ignored principles established by
Bill W. and reflected in the Current Conference Charter [6].

When all avenues and efforts to reason with the individual had been
exhausted, we learned that he was printing and distributing
unauthorized Big Books in Finnish, Hebrew, Russian, and Spanish, as
well as German. We faced our responsibilities to A.A. as a whole in
1997 when A.A.W.S., publisher of Conference-approved, copyrighted
literature, requested that a German Court grant an order that the
defendant cease and desist all "A.A." publications in any language.
Prior to our action of last resort, the General Service Board of A.A.
in Germany initiated proceedings in the German Court to prevent the
defendant from continuing to publish and distribute A.A. literature in
German.

In May 1999, the German Court of Common Pleas ruled for the
plaintiffs, the German Board and A.A.W.S. The following month, June
1999, the defendant appealed the ruling, thus continuing a process
that absorbed energy and resources over four more years.

In October 2003, the Court of Appeals in Frankfurt decided the matters
in favor of A.A., represented by the German General Service Board and
A.A.W.S. The defendant's claims were not allowed, and the Court
required that he cease producing/distributing Conference-approved
books and pamphlets in any language. The Court affirmed the validity
of copyrights held in trust by A.A.W.S., and recognized Bill W. as
author of Alcoholics Anonymous, A.A.'s Basic Text.

The German Court decreed that the defendant must reimburse A.A.W.S.
and A.A. in Germany for legal expenses, including attorney fees. Early
in 2004, we and the German General Service Board offered the defendant
an opportunity to forgo reimbursement of legal costs and fees provided
the defendant does not publish or distribute Conference-approved
literature in any language or country, now or in the future, and
accepts all other stipulations in the Court's order.

The defendant has not responded to our offer. Therefore, we have asked
that remedies stipulated in the Court's final order of October 2003 be
fulfilled by the defendant.

While these matters were before the Court, we were constrained from
discussing relevant details. We promised past and present members of
the General Service Conference that we would report more fully when
the matter was concluded. Legal fees and related expenses over the
seven year period, 1998-2004, totaled $227,707.

Trustees, A.A.W.S. and Grapevine Directors have no sense of victory or
accomplishment. Throughout, we have applied ourselves to the
principles handed down to you and to us. We recognized and faced our
responsibilities, and the supreme importance of protecting the
integrity and simplicity of Conference-approved literature, as well as
the message handed down by Dr. Bob, Bill W. and A.A.'s early members.

Attached is a chronology with additional details on this matter. The
attempt to erode or alter A.A.'s message, including our basic text,
Alcoholics Anonymous, was not successful. We pray that the distortions
of fact and harmful rumors will cease, and that each of us will
continue to affirm our responsibility to share experience, strength
and hope with the alcoholic who still suffers.

=======================================

Footnotes

[1] Bill W. copyrighted the Norwegian translation of Alcoholics
Anonymous.

[2] Affirmed by the 7th General Service Conference (1957).

[3] A.A. Publishing, Inc. became A.A. World Services, Inc. on
September 3, 1959.

[4] The Current Conference Charter (United States and Canada) states:
"In countries where a General Service Structure exists, the United
States/Canada Conference will delegate sole right to publish our
Conference-approved literature to the General Service Board of that
structure."

[5] Biennial meeting originated in 1969 to share experience, strength
and hope-country to country-so that the A.A. message is carried to the
alcoholic who stumbles in the dark, regardless of language or origin.

[6] See footnote 4.

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++++Message 2860. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 3 of
3
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2005 9:29:00 AM

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AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 3 of 3

This is the final portion of the Board report to the 2004 General
Service Board on the copyright infringement lawsuit in Germany. This
posting provides the most definitive details of the lawsuit episode.

Footnote references are contained in brackets.
===========================================================

General Service Board Report - Challenge to AA Unity and Legacy

Chronology of the German Lawsuit - Addendum to: Alcoholics Anonymous -
Our Name and Our Message

In 1993, an individual living in Germany communicated with the General
Service Offices in both Germany and Canada/US that he intended to
publish his German translation of Alcoholics Anonymous [1]. He was
advised that the copyright on the AA Big Book remained in effect in
Germany, and that the German General Service Board held the license to
publish/distribute the approved German translation of Alcoholics
Anonymous.

Despite the best efforts of the German Board, as well as many
communications from our Board, the man published and distributed his
German translation of Alcoholics Anonymous. The Board of AA in Germany
consulted with their General Service Conference, and retained legal
counsel to explain to the individual the seriousness of publishing "AA
literature" that had not been considered or approved by a
representative group conscience or Conference, and was not authorized
by an AA board licensed for that purpose.

Every possible means of communication was utilized to explain to the
individual the seriousness of continued distribution of literature
without authorization. We began to hear from AA members and groups who
were concerned with the man's efforts to gain support for his
enterprise. He appeared at AA events, often without invitation, and
encouraged concern and unrest among AA's.

Coincidentally, Directors serving on the AA World Services, Inc. Board
reported to the 44th General Service Conference (1994) that, "The
position of the AAWS Board is to avoid litigation whenever possible.
If it were decided to prohibit all litigation respecting identifying
marks and copyrights, such action could have the effect of abandoning
the AA name and copyrights forever, along with the integrity of our
message and our identity." The resolution was discussed during that
Conference and, on occasion, in succeeding Conferences. Boards,
management and staff furnished background on the subject to interested
AA members, groups and/or service bodies.

1994-1996, the individual distributing unauthorized "AA" literature
traveled to Mexico several times, where he met with a small, but vocal
group of AA members who were challenging licenses to publish approved
translations of AA literature granted to the General Service Board of
AA in Mexico (Central Mexicana).

November 1996, the individual distributing translations of "AA"
literature without authorization, came to New York City and asked to
meet with the General Manager [2] of our General Service Office. The
General Manager and a Staff member met with the German visitor, who
was accompanied by two friends from Germany.

During the lengthy meeting, the General Manager carefully explained
the obligations and responsibilities of AAWS to AA as a whole, that
is, to assure the integrity of our printed message, including doing so
through approved translations licensed to boards elected to serve AA
in other lands-one board per country or language. The individual
described his objections to the approved German translation of AA's
Big Book, and he was encouraged to express his concerns to members of
the General Service Conference of AA in Germany [3].

Early in 1997, the Manager of Sweden's General Service Office called
our GSO to ask for an explanation and assistance regarding
"Swedish-language Big Books" delivered to local groups without notice
or explanation; AA in Sweden was confronted by a dilemma created from
outside the country. It was determined that the Swedish books were
printed in Germany by the same individual publishing and distributing
the unauthorized German translation of the Big Book, who also operated
a mail order book business.

Soon thereafter, we learned that the man had shipped an unauthorized
translation of the Finnish-language Big Book to groups in Finland.
Additionally, he began distribution of his translation of the Big Book
in Hebrew, again without permission or the consent of local AA groups
and/or service centers.

By summer 1997, AAWS determined that the General Service Board of AA
in Russia was able to begin publication and distribution of AA
literature in Russian-a huge step forward for the AA Fellowship in
Russia. [4] AAWS' Publications Director, accompanied by a Staff
member, traveled to Moscow in August 1997, for the express purpose of
conveying AAWS' license to the Russian Board to permit them to publish
and distribute the approved translation of the Russian-language Big
Book.

While in Moscow, the Publications Director and Staff member were
invited to participate in the 10th Anniversary Celebration of AA in
Russia. The individual printing AA literature without permission was
present; he attempted a confrontation with our representatives, who
declined to participate.

By October 1997, the General Service Board of AA in Russia was ready
to print and distribute 2,000 Russian Big Books. The Russian Board
contacted AAWS to express deep concern that someone had printed 50,000
copies of an unapproved translation of the Russian Big Book for
distribution in Russia and elsewhere. Quickly, it was learned that the
same individual who distributed unauthorized "AA literature" in other
countries had expanded distribution of "free" Big Books to Russia.
Catalogs describing the man's mail order book business, and offering
"AA literature" for sale, began appearing in mail directed to local
Russian AA groups.

Every effort urging the man to cease activities that fomented disunity
and disrupted Twelfth Step work supported by recognized AA service
centers was refused or ignored.

Up to this point, we had been confronted by only two situations of
copyright infringement that could not be resolved through
communication and negotiation. Those two instances directly abridged
licenses granted to the General Service Boards of AA in Mexico and
Germany, established service entities that possessed the resources to
protect our copyright(s) and their license.

AA in Finland, Russia, Sweden and Israel were not prepared to deal
with the assault on AA unity and services, as well as their licenses
to publish granted by AAWS.

The General Service Board of AA in Germany continued communications or
negotiations with the individual without resolution. In May 1997, the
German Board, with the knowledge of their General Service Conference,
filed a complaint with a German Court citing the defendant's illegal
activities, and, filed a separate request that the Court order the
defendant to cease and desist his activities. Those filings addressed
illegal publications of AA literature that abridged licenses granted
to the German Board.

Throughout, AAWS, our General Service Board, and the AA Grapevine
Board were informed of repeated efforts to reason with the individual.
In November 1997, Trustees of our General Service Board convened a
solemn session attended by Directors of the AAWS and Grapevine Boards,
and GSO and Grapevine staffs. The meeting was called to consider
unanimous resolutions adopted by AA World Services, Inc. on October
30, 1997:

Resolved: That the AAWS Board recognizes its responsibility to
preserve and protect the copyrights held in trust for all of AA, both
here in US/Canada, and through-out the world. The AAWS Board further
recognizes that unchallenged infringement of our copyrighted
literature seriously impacts the future growth of AA overseas."

"Following adoption of the above resolution, the AAWS Board authorized
management, working with the board's legal advisor, the Chairpersons
of AAWS and General Service Boards, and such other persons as the
respective chairs might assign, to take such appropriate action,
including legal action, as may be necessary to meet the challenge."

The General Service Board endorsed both resolutions with complete
unanimity.

When all avenues of reason and/or negotiation had been exhausted, AA
World Services initiated legal proceedings in Germany that sought to
prevent further publication and distribution of unauthorized AA
literature. We prayed that the man would cease activities that
fomented misunderstanding and disunity.

The General Service Board explained the developments to the 48th
General Service Conference (1998). That practice was continued during
each succeeding General Service Conference, when the Chairman of the
General Service Board updated Conference members on progress of the
German Court's considerations. Throughout, Trustees and Directors were
kept informed. Past Chairmen of our Board, Jim Estelle and Gary Glynn,
provided guidance and insight; and, we continued to benefit by Past
Chairman Michael Alexander's wisdom and vast experience.

May 1999, the German Court of Common Pleas ruled for the plaintiffs,
the German Board and AAWS, finding that the defendant did not have
rights to publish German translations of the pamphlets "Too Young?"
and "It Happened to Alice," and the book Alcoholics Anonymous. The
following month, June 1999, the defendant appealed the Court's ruling
as it applied to the book Alcoholics Anonymous and Bill W's authorship
of the Big Book5, thus forcing a process that absorbed energy and
resources over four more years.

In October 2003, the Court of Appeals in Frankfurt decided matters in
favor of AA, represented by the German General Service Board and AAWS.
The defendant's claims were not allowed, and the Court required that
he cease producing/distributing Conference-approved books and
pamphlets in any language. The Court affirmed the validity of
copyrights held in trust by AAWS, and recognized Bill W. as author of
Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Basic Text.

The Court ordered the defendant to turn over all "AA" books and
pamphlets that he printed and/or held as inventory; and, to provide
details on the reach and extent of his distribution system. The Court
decreed that the defendant must reimburse AAWS and AA in Germany for
legal expenses, including attorney fees.

Early in 2004, we and the German General Service Board offered the
defendant an opportunity to forgo reimbursement of legal costs and
fees provided the defendant does not publish or distribute
Conference-approved literature in any language or country, now or in
the future, and accepts all other stipulations in the Court's order.

The defendant has not responded to our offer. Therefore, we have asked
that remedies stipulated in the Court's final order of October 2003 be
fulfilled by the defendant.

While these matters were before the Court, we were constrained from
discussing relevant details. We promised past and present members of
the General Service Conference that we would report more fully when
the matter was concluded. Legal fees and related expenses over the
seven year period, 1998-2004, totaled $227,707.

Trustees, AAWS and Grapevine Directors have no sense of victory or
accomplishment. Throughout, we have applied ourselves to the
principles handed down to us and to you. We recognized and faced our
responsibilities to protect the integrity of Conference-approved
literature, and the AA message of hope handed down by Dr. Bob, Bill W.
and the early members.

Footnotes
========================
[1] The unauthorized translation was distributed at no charge, with a
catalog of "AA" and other literature for sale.

[2] A position that includes the responsibility of serving as
President of AA World Services, Inc.

[3] For more than 5 years, the individual distributed written
criticisms of German AA literature to members of the German General
Service Conference and elsewhere.

[4] Since AA in Russia was founded (1987), AAWS had published and
shipped Russian-language AA books and pamphlets to the Moscow Central
Service Office for the benefit of AA in Russia. The support provided
by our General Service Board and General Service Conference
(Canada/US) had encouraged AA's development and the establishment of a
service structure in Russia.

[5] Defendant did not appeal the Court's ruling that he had no right
to publish/distribute German translations of the pamphlets "Too
Young?" and "It Happened to Alice,"

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++++Message 2861. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A split in Finland into two AA
structures
From: soberfinn . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2005 1:21:00 AM

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Hi All

Welcome Soberholic

The split in Finland is a ongoing process. Still not history, even if it
started
about 1970! The researcher is an "outside" person. Not bad but "It ain't
necessarily so."

I tried to explain the split (when asked) on another Yahoo site one year
ago:
GSO (GSO Watchers) starting 1.1.2005 Message 10454.

[A note from the moderator: see below for the text of that message]

Tried to be objective (formidable task).

Anyway if you ask Finnish AA's, you´ll get two different and opposite
answers.
And you can get sobriety both ways.

No more about this here and now. Believe in a Happy Destiny.

This is a fine forum.

Paul S. aka soberfinn

______________________________

AAHistoryLovers Message 2852 from
"Soberholic" <soberholic@yahoo.com> (soberholic at yahoo.com)

Hi everyone,

I'm a grateful sober alcoholic from Finland.

I have found a deep interest in A.A. history during last eight years
that Finnish A.A. has been split in two. Nobody still knows what future will
bring to us but this researcher has done a great job:

http://www.stakes.fi/nat/nat04/3/abstlep.htm

I'm so glad I found this group.

Yours truly,

soberholic

______________________________

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/gso/message/10454

Message 10454 on that Yahoo webgroup's message board
From: "soberfinn" <soberfinn@...> (soberfinn at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: Re: A New Year´s gift

Hello Watchers.

Hal asked me about the split in AA in Finland. The answer is not
easy,not simple and objecivity is next to impossible for me.

AA-meetings started 14.3.48 in Finland. The structure developed
different from the worlwide.

Attemps to change started about 1970..Things was dicussed, commities
formed,propositions given,but not accepted. Continued through the
years.

1996-97 the proposition of change to the worldwide (USA/CANADA)model
was again on the agenda for the yearly meeting of AA-groups. The
meeting was "stormy". The question never came up. The "change-
positive" members left/had to leave the meeting.

Later many groups wanted to hear the proposition. This was performed
and 31.1.98 147 AA-groups accepted the change and a servicestructure
and Conference was formed.

So now we have two different structures in Finland. However the
groups "on both sides" function as earlier on the important
grassrooth plane. "We" and "WE" are not enemies. Old real frienships
go on. Friend go to friends meeting to meet friends....

The "split" has now continued for seven years. After a stormy
beginning emotions and even personal antipaties has calmed down.
Groups from both sides have started to work together locally. The
cpncern for the newcomers prevails.

I think things will be OK with time.(IMHO) Of course it will
take...time.

I tried to be objective -of course a formiddable foe. As GSR for my
group in 1996-97 I respected our groupconcience wich was in favor
for the servicestructure-Conference (USA/CANADA). So far we are the
minority here. OK better and shorter i could not answer.

Soberfinn, recovered alcoholic

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++++Message 2862. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Grapevine contributor R.F.S.
(Montclair NJ)
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2005 8:37:00 PM

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[The initials R.F.S. stood for] probably Royal F. Shepard, an attorney who,
according to correspondence in the NYC archives, helped draw up
the incorporation papers for the Grapevine.

Royal was also part of the "Orthodox Movement" in the late 1940's and early
50's
along with Henrietta Seiberling, Bill VanHorn and Clarence Snyder (among
others).
___________________________

corafinch <corafinch@yahoo.com> (corafinch@yahoo.com) wrote:

Does anyone know the identity of R.F.S. of
Montclair, NJ who wrote for the Grapevine in the
1940's? He (she?) contributed some very interesting
articles.

Thanks,
Cora

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++++Message 2863. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 1
of 3
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2005 12:17:00 AM

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OK.... I haven't noticed anywhere in the materials
presented by Art on behalf of AAWS, Inc. that the
official and sanctioned German translation of the Big
Book has removed virtually all references to God and
spirituality. These references have been replaced by
psychological and secular terms totally removing
spirituality and God from the Big Book.

The text published by AABBSG in Germany and
distributed for free was a literal translation of the
original text which is true to the original rather
than destroying what AA's founding members wrote. In
order to be fair and unbiased, I wonder why neither
Art nor AAWS, Inc. ever mention this significant fact?

What may be termed biased is backed up by
documentation, something every historian needs to
verify the truth. Simply by making a report does not
make truth in a researcher's vernacular. History will
bear out the truth, no matter which viewpoint is
presented. To accuse slander by a group of people who
historically have attacked and bankrupted many AA
members, pulled items for sale off of eBay in direct
restraint of trade and totally ignored AA's Traditions
and Concepts for World Service is like the kettle
calling the pot black.

Historians, if they be true researchers and tellers of
the truth should not be swayed by this so-called
report without demanding documentation and viewing the
documentation presented by a different voice. If we
are to be true to history and our calling, taking this
3-part "document" as fact would be totally against
everything I have ever learned an historian does.

Fellow students of AA history - look at the
documentation, read the Concepts for World Service
where it says AA should never sue anyone and connect
with all parties before taking such an inflamitory
document as fact.

> AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 1 of 3
>
> Commentary has been available on the web regarding
> the lawsuit filed
> in Germany against an individual who persistently
> infringed upon AA
> copyrights.
>
> Regrettably, what has been posted on the web to date
> has been heavily
> biased to portray the copyright infringer in
> somewhat of an innocent
> martyr context and casting the General Service
> Boards and General
> Service Offices of the US/Canada and Germany as
> vindictive
> authoritarians. This latter portrayal constitutes
> slander.
>
> Typically there is more than one viewpoint of a
> story. A series of
> postings will be issued through AAHistoryLovers to
> offer the
> explanation provided by AA's General Service Board
> Trustees to the
> 2004 General Service Conference Delegates.
>
> The information below is an extract of the initial
> report presented to
> the 2004 General Service Conference by the then
> Board Chair Dr Elaine
> McDowell. She provides a summary of the history of
> the lawsuit in
> Germany (which involved repeated copyright
> infringements upon AA
> publications by a local citizen over a sustained
> period of time).
>
> Two other reports were made to the 2004 General
> Service Conference and
> they will be posted in sequence. A more detailed
> description of
> actions related to this lawsuit will be in the other
> postings. There
> is much duplication of the same information in all
> three postings.
> Posting 3 provides the most definitive detail.
> ====================================================
>
> [Abridged] General Service Board Report (2004 final
> report pg 23)
>
> Elaine McDowell, PhD
> Chair of the General Service Board
>
> [. leading paragraphs unrelated to the lawsuit have
> been deleted].
>
> Adrienne, Greg, and publications director Chris C.
> responded to
> invitations to visit AA in Colombia, Nicaragua,
> Paris, and Vienna,
> where they shared information on licensing,
> distribution, copyrights,
> and production of AA literature. The three also
> attended the 12th
> European Service Meeting in Frankfurt as observers,
> where discussions
> centered on safeguarding the integrity of AA's
> written message in all
> languages, in every country and structure throughout
> the world-values
> that are rooted in our singleness of purpose, the
> cornerstone of AA
> here and elsewhere.
>
> Toward that end, your Publications Department is
> responsible for
> overseeing translations of Conference-approved
> books. Alcoholics
> Anonymous in Icelandic and Zulu; Daily Reflections
> in Italian and
> Portuguese; Living Sober in Latvian and Greek;
> Swahili Twelve Steps
> and Twelve Traditions; and As Bill Sees It in
> Italian have been
> published since the 53rd General Service Conference
> last April.
>
> Publications staff also maintains contact with
> General Service Offices
> or committees in other countries to achieve accurate
> translations of
> Conference-approved pamphlets. Among the pamphlets
> translated in the
> last year are: Thai-language "Is AA for You?," "44
> Questions," "A
> Newcomer Asks," and "This is AA"; the Simplified
> Chinese version of "A
> Newcomer Asks"; and, "Is AA For Me?" in German.
> Nearing completion are
> several pamphlets in various languages spoken in
> India; "Questions and
> Answers on Sponsorship"; "The AA Group," and
> "Understanding Anonymity"
> in Latvian; and "The Twelve Steps Illustrated" in
> Inuktitut. In each
> case, the translation reflects the original
> (English) manuscript, and
> the practice of assuring that the basic AA message
> is tied to our
> principles and primary purpose.
>
> The General Service Board's role in observance of
> AA's singleness of
> purpose occasionally necessitates difficult
> decisions or actions.
> Since 1993, with the support of the General Service
> Conference and the
> AAWS and Grapevine Boards, we addressed a serious
> challenge to
> copyrights on AA literature, first granted to Bill
> W., and later
> assigned by Bill to AAWS on behalf of the Fellowship
> as a whole.
>
> Bill W. copyrighted the First Edition of our Big
> Book so that the text
> could not be altered to suit individual views or
> interpretations not
> fully considered by a representative group
> conscience. The General
> Service Conference (U.S./Canada) has served as the
> effective group
> conscience of AA as a whole since 1955 and adoption
> of the historic
> resolution in St. Louis. (The AA Service
> Manual/Twelve Concepts for
> World Services, pp. S89-90)
>
> Most of you are aware that a German citizen
> undertook to publish and
> distribute several Conference-approved books and
> pamphlets, first in
> Germany and then in other countries. Our first
> contact with him
> occurred in 1993. For more than four years, we and
> the General Service
> Board of AA in Germany used every possible means of
> communication to
> reason with him. Each contact was a sincere effort
> to persuade him
> that unauthorized publications in the name of AA
> ignored principles
> established by Bill W. and reflected in the Current
> Conference
> Charter: "In countries where a General Service
> Structure exists, the
> United States/Canada Conference will delegate sole
> right to publish
> our Conference-approved literature to the General
> Service Board of
> that structure."
>
> For four years, we requested that he cease
> publishing unauthorized
> literature in the name of AA Yet, he translated and
> distributed
> Conference-approved books and pamphlets in several
> languages,
> including Finnish, Hebrew, Russian, Spanish, and
> Swedish, as well as
> German and English.
>
> The effect in countries with new or struggling
> service structures was
> profound. The unauthorized books created confusion
> within the
> membership, were unconnected to the local service
> office or structure,
> and raised concerns about the integrity of AA's
> simple message.
> Unsolicited books arrived in local groups; AA
> members were confused
> and distracted from the group's primary purpose. In
> some cases, Unity
> was threatened.
>
> Secondarily, a majority of AA service entities in
> other countries
> depend on literature sales, as well as
> contributions, to support basic
> services. Our friends in other countries looked to
> your structure for
> they recognized the challenges to copyrights held in
> trust by AA World
> Services (AAWS) for AA as a whole.
>
> In November 1997, we realized that we had exhausted
> all avenues of
> reason and/or negotiation. The German General
> Service
=== message truncated ===

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++++Message 2864. . . . . . . . . . . . Marty Mann and history of AA in
England
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2005 1:08:00 AM

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From: "Sally Brown" rev.sally@worldnet.att.net (rev.sally at
worldnet.att.net)

Hi Glenn,

Something to add to Charles Knapp's long account of AA in England.

Before Lois and Bill Wilson visited England in 1951, another key pioneer
preceded them. In 1948, Marty Mann, the first woman to achieve long-term
sobriety in AA, and the founder of the National Council on Alcoholism,
visited
England. She spoke to "an enthusiastic audience of 136" AAs in London. Marty
had
lived and worked in England for most of the 1930s before she got sober, so
the
visit was something of a homecoming. She was actually on her way to Lucerne,
Switzerland, where she was an "official member of the US delegation [to the
International Conference on Alcoholism]."

The full account of Marty's experience in this early London AA meeting can
be
found on pages 201-203 in "A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of
Alcoholics Anonymous," by Sally Brown and David R Brown. Although the
authors
have no archival record of Marty's remarks or details of her reception, it's
a
cinch she would have been especially honored by the AA group simply because
she
was Bill Wilson's sponsee. And it's a cinch Bill would have briefed her
thoroughly beforehand about what he wanted included in her talk!

Shalom -- Sally Brown

_______________________

From the moderator:

I realise that we have only the barest beginnings of any comprehensive
account
of the history of early AA in England and the United Kingdom, and its
connexions
with Canadian and United States AA. I do hope that some of our members from
the
UK (and other places as well) will be able to write in and provide us a bit
more
detail and colour.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2865. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 1
of 3
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2005 2:01:00 AM

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Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 1 of 3

OK.... I haven't noticed anywhere in the materials
presented by Art on behalf of AAWS, Inc. that the
official and sanctioned German translation of the Big
Book has removed virtually all references to God and
spirituality. These references have been replaced by
psychological and secular terms totally removing
spirituality and God from the Big Book.

I had a conversation with Vinnie McCarthy when she was Director of
Publications for AAWS concerning the use of the term "translations."

If you remove words and phrases from the original text to suit the culture
of the country should not the term "version" be used. To me a translation is
word for word.

She felt that use of the word "translations" was ok.

I disagree and so do many others who supported the distribution of free
literature with a true translation.
Jim

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++++Message 2866. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 1 of
3
From: Irene E. Sekros . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2005 4:30:00 AM

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Responses from Irene S. and Tommy H. on the present official German
translation
of the Big Book:
______________________________

In Message 2863, Mitchell K. wrote:

"OK.... I haven't noticed anywhere in the materials presented by Art on
behalf
of AAWS, Inc. that the official and sanctioned German translation of the Big
Book has removed virtually all references to God and spirituality. These
references have been replaced by psychological and secular terms totally
removing spirituality and God from the Big Book."
______________________________

From: "Irene E. Sekros" <ies@hol.gr> (ies at hol.gr)
Date: Mon Nov 28, 2005

How can that be? My official version of the German BB "(Zehnte Auflage,
1999)
translated from Third Edition, New & Revised 1976, 7th Printing 1980", is an
exact translation of the English original and has nowhere substituted the
mention of God in whatever form with some other designation.

Respectfully,
Irene (Athens)
______________________________

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Date: Mon
Nov
28, 2005

Perhaps what one does in translating material would be an interesting topic
or
even if what Mitchell alleges about spirituality being taken out might be a
peripheral topic, but both need to be discussed by persons that know what
they
are talking about, which will likely limit discussion. 8^)

Tommy

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++++Message 2867. . . . . . . . . . . . Translating English into German
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2005 1:17:00 AM

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Critics of the present official German translation of the Big Book
frequently
state that this translation has taken an extremely large number of
references to
God and spirituality, and replaced them with psychological and
intellectualistic
concepts.

Our purpose in this web group, the AAHistoryLovers, is to ferret out the
facts,
and present an honest and dependable historical account based on a thorough
study of all the relevant facts and evidence.

So in light of this, could someone give us some actual examples of what they
believe to be mistranslations of this sort?

I have searched the internet myself and have not been able to locate any
detailed list of such mistranslations posted by the critics of the old
translation, nor have I been able to locate a copy online of the officially
sanctioned German text of the Big Book so that I could check passages out
for
myself.

Translating anything complex from one language into another is always very
difficult, and there are a number of traps in which the unwary can become
ensnared.

There are translations for example which look acceptable if we take a
German-English dictionary and look the words up one by one. The German word
in
question may have the English word in the Big Book listed as one possible
translation. And yet that particular translation may be extremely misleading
or
even a gross mistranslation. It requires deep familiarity with both
languages to
understand all of the nuances and associations which are involved with the
words
in both of the languages.

And this is where I think we are getting a lot of our problems.

So for example, one problem is that the German language has no word, as far
as I
know, which has exactly the same connotations as the English words spirit
and
spiritual. If we look up the German word "Geist," the English word "spirit"
is
given as one possible translation. So why can't we use the word Geist to
translate spirit? Maybe it was Hegel, maybe it comes from some other part of
the
German cultural tradition, but the German word Geist usually tends to have
an
intellectualistic connotation to it which is totally absent in the English
word
spirit.

In German, the Geist is often seen as the unfolding of ideas, and the
recognition of these ideas in the human intellect. So Geist in this sense
has to
do with "Idee" (idea) and "Begriff" (intellectual concept). The Geist (in
the
German understanding of the word) is expressed in terms of the study of law
and
legal theory, the study of philosophy and philosophical principles, and all
the
other intellectual systems which are current in a particular human society
at a
particular point in history.

But in the Big Book, references to the realm of the spirit and entering the
realm of the spirit, are cast in terms of what a German would call the realm
of
"Gefuehl" (feeling) and "Ahnung" (the intuitive awareness of that which is
outside the range of full objective consciousness).

One of the two most influential German-speaking theologians in the period
right
after the First World War was Rudolf Otto, who wrote a book called "Das
Heilige"
(1917), translated into English in 1923 as "The Idea of the Holy," which
explains very clearly the strong distinction made in German thought between
the
realm of feeling and intuition, and the realm of ideas and intellectualized
concepts.

What Bill W. felt when he was standing in Winchester Cathedral was not the
"Geist," but the "Gefuehl" of "das Heilige."

So translating spirit as Geist may have an unavoidable tendency to point a
German in the wrong direction. And in other German words as well, it is
sometimes difficult to keep the translation from having the same kind of
intellectualistic tendency which the opponents of the officially sanctioned
German translation of the Big Book are criticizing.

So some of the critics complain about the translation of the phrase in the
eleventh step which says "sought through prayer and meditation." The German
says
"Wir suchten durch Gebet und Besinnung." Their complaint is that "Besinnung"
means "thinking." And it is true that this German word can mean "thoughtful
consideration." But it can also mean "reflection" and "contemplation."

What German word would they replace it with? "Nachdenken"? Yes, one will
find
the word "meditation" in a German-English dictionary as one possible
translation
of that word. But "Nachdenken" implies "pensive thought" involving deep
"mental
cogitation."

Don't be fooled by a careless look at translation dictionaries. "Nachdenken"
is
probably more intellectualistic than "Besinnung." Using that to translate
the
English word meditation certainly is not going to help any, and it could
make
misunderstanding even greater.

Furthermore, one must understand all of the nuances and associations of the
English words too, and in particular, one must understand what they meant
historically back in 1939, not what they mean now in 2005. So for example a
lot
of modern English speakers associate the word "meditation" with a Hindu
discipline called Transcendental Meditation (where we completely clear our
minds
of all concepts and shut off all the flow of ideas through our minds). This
was
popularized by a pop music group called the Beatles during the 1960's. But
this
was not at all what the word meditation meant back in 1939.

If people in 1939 had come in contact with the kind of thing the Beatles and
their Hindu guru did, they would have called that "contemplation." The step
does
not say "sought through prayer and contemplation." That means that (in the
original intent of the Big Book), the step does NOT say "sought through
prayer
and what the Beatles and their guru were doing."

The term "meditation" principally referred in 1939 to thoughtful reflection
upon
a passage one had read in the Bible or in a book of spiritual readings, or
it
could refer to thinking deeply about a spiritual topic which one's spiritual
director had suggested. Meditation involved discursive thought. So
meditation
DID mean quietly thinking about spiritual things and our own spiritual lives
back in 1939.

In fact (smile) a good way of describing what the word meditation meant back
in
1939 within the traditional theological language of the time, would be to
say
that it meant something basically like the German word "Besinnung."

______________________________

All I can find from the officially sanctioned German version of the Big
Book, at
this point, is a copy of the Twelve Steps. But these are worth looking at,
to
see if the translation is really as bad as its critics say that it is:

DIE ZWÖLF SCHRITTE DER AA

1. Wir gaben zu, dass wir dem Alkohol gegenüber machtlos sind -- und unser
Leben
nicht mehr meistern konnten.

2. Wir kamen zu dem Glauben, dass eine Macht, größer als wir selbst, uns
unsere
geistige Gesundheit wiedergeben kann.

3. Wir fassten den Entschluss, unseren Willen und unser Leben der Sorge
Gottes
-- wie wir ihn verstanden -- anzuvertrauen.

4. Wir machten eine gründliche und furchtlose Inventur in unserem Inneren.

5. Wir gaben Gott, uns selbst und einem anderen Menschen gegenüber
unverhüllt
unsere Fehler zu.

6. Wir waren völlig bereit, all diese Charakterfehler von Gott beseitigen
zu
lassen.

7. Demütig baten wir Ihn, unsere Mängel von uns zu nehmen.

8. Wir machten eine Liste aller Personen, denen wir Schaden zugefügt hatten
und
wurden willig, ihn bei allen wiedergutzumachen.

9. Wir machten bei diesen Menschen alles wieder gut -- wo immer es möglich
war
--, es sei denn, wir hätten dadurch sie oder andere verletzt.

10. Wir setzten die Inventur bei uns fort, und wenn wir Unrecht hatten,
gaben
wir es sofort zu.

11. Wir suchten durch Gebet und Besinnung die bewusste Verbindung zu Gott --
wie
wir Ihn verstanden -- zu vertiefen. Wir baten Ihn nur, uns Seinen Willen
erkennbar werden zu lassen und uns die Kraft zu geben, ihn auszuführen.

12. Nachdem wir durch diese Schritte ein spirituelles Erwachen erlebt
hatten,
versuchten wir, diese Botschaft an Alkoholiker weiterzugeben und unser
tägliches
Leben nach diesen Grundsätzen auszurichten

______________________________

The critics complain about the translation of step four, "made a searching
and
fearless moral inventory of ourselves." The German says literally "we made a
thorough/solid/profound and fearless inventory in our heart/soul/inner
selves."
The critics point out that the word "moral" was left out.

How bad is this? The German translation does talk in step five about our
"Fehler" (failures, defects, blemishes, flaws, faults) which we
confessed/admitted to "Gott" (God). And it talks in step six about our
"Charakterfehler" which we were fully ready to let "Gott" [God]
remove/eliminate/do away with.

Step eight talks about making a list of all the persons to whom we did
"Schaden," which means damage, harm, injury, hurt, wrong. And it says that
we
became willing "wiedergutzumachen" to all of these people. That is a nice
German word, much stronger and more explicit than the English word "amends."
If
we read it literally, "wieder-gut-zu-machen" means "again-good-to-make."

This doesn't seem to me to be watering down the program. In fact, the
original
English often seems to me to be much weaker in its demands.

Look at step seven in particular: the English says we "asked" God, while the
German says we begged and implored Him and prayed to Him. The English says
we
did it "humbly," while the German says we did it humbly/meekly/submissively.
The English has the very weak and weasely word "shortcomings," as though we
were
saying nonchalantly, "oh, I know I have a few shortcomings here and there."
The
German jumps on us with both feet and says that these are "Maengel," which
means
defects, faults, flaws. We are defective as people. We are flawed
personalities. And these defects and flaws are OUR FAULT.

The word God shows up in the steps in the English version four times, in
steps
3, 5, 6, and 11. In the German version, the word "Gott" shows up in all four
places. It is not left out.

In step 12, the English version finally became phrased in terms of "a
spiritual
awakening" which we "had," rather than using the older more religious
version
which spoke of having had "a spiritual experience."

The critics should note that the German version is actually closer to the
old
more strongly religious version of that step, because it peaks of "ein
spirituelles Erwachen" (where Erwachen does mean awakening), but it says
that
this was an awakening which "we experienced." So in German it is a spiritual
awakening produced by a spiritual experience.

______________________________

Anyone who has ever done translation at the professional level will tell you
that there is never truly any "perfect" translation from one language into
another of a work of prose which is as complex and finely nuanced as the Big
Book.

What I have seen so far, of the specific examples given by the critics of
the
officially sanctioned German translation, don't seem all that horrendous.
Some
of them are the kinds of disputes that always occur when you get a committee
trying to translate something like the Bible, where different scholars have
different opinions on how to best avoid a misleading translation.

In other cases (such as their claim that the German comes out sounding more
intellectualistic in lots of places) it may be partly due to the nature of
the
German language itself. So we need to ask them not only for examples of what
they say are poor or misleading translations, but also (in each case) we
need to
ask them to come up with what they think would be a better translation.

So for example, when they complain about "meditation" in step 11 being
translated as "Besinnung," it is perfectly fair to ask them what German word
they would think would be more accurate. And as I have already pointed out,
the
word "Nachdenken" (one possible substitute) would not be any better, and
might
even be worse. Maybe take the word "Meditieren" or "Meditierung" and use
that?
But it has to be a German word which the average German would recognize, not
an
odd and little used word. And I frankly do not know exactly what an average
German speaker would make of the word "Meditierung," and whether it would
mean
much of anything at all. It may be a word which everybody in Germany uses
and
would recognize nowadays. But I suspect not.

So anyway, I would hope that those who wish to carry this investigation
further
would get out their German-English dictionaries, and list a number of
specific
places where they feel that the officially sanctioned German version is not
spiritual enough, and where they feel that it cuts God out of the text. And
also in each case THEIR German translation which they feel would more
accurately
represent the original English, so we can do a thorough critique back the
other
way.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2868. . . . . . . . . . . . bill w.''s home
From: gbaa487 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2005 9:54:00 PM

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i was at an meting today and there was an announcement that ozzie, the
gentleman that created the foundation to care for bill w.'s place in
east dorset.vt., died. he passed on monday morning, of, i
believe,cancer.
george

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++++Message 2869. . . . . . . . . . . . big book manuscript
From: gbaa487 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2005 3:51:00 PM

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how was it detemined who would get a copy of the big book manuscript
for review??
thanks for all the great stuff,
george

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++++Message 2870. . . . . . . . . . . . author of "Cup of Tea" or
"Gresham''s Law"
From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2005 3:46:00 PM

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I am looking for information regarding the author of a 12-page document
that may appear under the title "A Cup of Tea" or "Gresham's Law and
Alcoholics Anonymous." (A copy of the document is available at
http://aabbsg.de/oppf/24-12.gif) It appeared in *24 Magazine,* a
publication of the East Ridge Community of Hanking, NY, in 1976. East
Ridge Community was associated with the Church of the Way, and seems to
have been a collective organized around the 12 Steps and the Oxford
Group's 4 Absolutes; it was not limited to AAs. This publication seems
to be a document of the mid-century Orthodox Movement, as it describes a
"copped-out and watered down AA" in which "parasites have already
drained the host organism of a considerable portion of its life force."
I am curious to find out
1) any biographical information about the author,
2) any information suggesting it was written before 1976 and just
reprinted then,
3) any information regarding *24 Magazine.*

Please let me know if you have any information regarding the above.
Thank, Trysh T.

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++++Message 2871. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who brought AA to the UK
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2005 9:15:00 AM

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Greetings All:

In our Philadelphia Archives, we have an engraved postcard from
Dorothy Hopkinson-Evans, and hand-written at the top is the caption
"Our Lone England Member".

The card contains a printed Christmas message from Dorothy, whose
address is given as "Comeragh Road - London"

It is dated "Christmas, 1945"

Best,
Cindy Miller

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++++Message 2872. . . . . . . . . . . . Translating English into Hebrew
From: Alex H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2005 3:54:00 PM

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> Critics of the present official German translation of the Big
> Book frequently state that this translation has taken an
> extremely large number of references to God and spirituality,
> and replaced them with psychological and intellectualistic
> concepts.

With the word "spirit" one would look into words that translated
into the sense of "ethereal." In Hebrew, this would be "ruach"
[ROO-ahkh] with kh sounding like the ch in Bach... like the
wind... but has the sense of the "the breath of life" of a
person. But when the Big Book speaks of "the world of the
spirit" they are not talking about one's life essence. The
"spirit" or "spirituality" is a euphemism used to draw a
distinction between organized religious ritual and the feeling
of joy one feels from spontaneous prayer and a certainty that G-
d is in His place and you know it. In Hebrew, this is a
different word. It is called "kavanah" [kah-vah-NAH]. Actually,
kavanah means more than that... a lot more... and that is what
we are talking about. Right? The word "kavanah" is not
translatable into English. It can only be approximated so it is
often left untranslated.

Maybe "spirit" and "spirituality" should be left untranslated.

Regarding the name of G-d, I am told that the Big Book has at
least two translations into Hebrew. There seems to be a dispute
in how to translate it, so until that dispute is resolved, AA
World Services will refuse to recognize ANY translation into
Hebrew as "official".

I picked up one of the Hebrew translations (Tel Aviv 1989) and
translated Chapter 1 back into English as a cross-check (with a
dictionary and a lot of sweating since I am so bad at this).
They did a fair job. (Like I'm an expert! :-)) So I wondered why
anyone was making a big deal out of it. Then I skipped ahead to
chapter 5 and saw it. In the 12 Steps, they translated the Name
of G-d in a way that made it controversial. It was translated
more or less accurately. That made it a problem from a religious
viewpoint.

Many non-Jews may not be aware of this, but in traditional
Judaism we hardly ever speak G-d's name directly. We avoid even
writing out His Name in ANY language as you can see in my
posting here. We often leave out a letter, substitute a
different name or use a place-holder such as "Hashem" [hah-SHEM]
which means "the name". What name? The name we aren't supposed
to be using so casually.

Even when we use one of G-d's names in a book on some religious
subject, there are some forms of the Name that we are not
allowed to read out loud except during prayer or formal Bible
study - "Elokeem". THAT is the name they use in their
translation of the 12 Steps. What is the practical impact of
using this name of G-d? It means that one can read the name
silently, but if you want to read the 12 steps OUT LOUD in a
meeting, you are violating a traditional Jewish religious
restriction.

That would be the traditional Jewish stance on the issue. If
there are any liberal Jews on the the list, perhaps they can
offer their opinion on the issue. I assume they would not see
any problem with speaking this form of G-d's name - "Elokeem".

(I have changed G-d's name in this posting. Elokeem is NOT His
name, but I am compelled by tradition to change it. See what I
mean? It's a problem.)

Also, as you may noticed, my posting implies there is more than
one name for G-d. In English this is not so obvious but if you
just think about it, English has several names for G-d as well.
For example, does anyone know who we are talking about when we
say, "The Almighty"? How about, "The L-rd?" These are rough
translations from the Hebrew of separate and distinct names of G-
d.

BTW, if you use one certain name for G-d in your book, you
instantly will render it a holy object and you will never be
able to throw it away. (I know what the name is but I feel
uncomfortable even thinking it, much less telling you what it
is.) That is why archeologists throw a party whenever they find
an ancient Jewish geneza [geh-NEE-zah]. It is usually chockfull
of books and objects that Jews could not throw away because
those objects have a certain one of G-d's names on them.... thus
rendering them holy objects... and a real problem for Jews when
those objects become worn and otherwise unusable later. They are
stored in a geneza until a rabbi can figure out what to do with
them.

I did a quick scan of the Big Book translation into Hebrew. I
didn't see THAT name used. Thank G-d!

Alex H.

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++++Message 2873. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Lawsuit in Germany: Posting 4
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2005 10:29:00 PM

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AA Lawsuit in Germany
=====================

The 3 items previously posted to AAHistoryLovers were transcripts of
official documents of record of reports to the 2004 General Service
Conference Delegates by the General Service Board. Prior summary
reports have also been presented to past Conferences and are in the
printed record of those proceedings.

These reports are issued after each Conference and typically are
distributed throughout the Areas by the Delegates. They may also be
obtained by any AA member from GSO. They are marked “confidential”
because they contain personal information on Conferences attendees
that should be respected by our Traditions of Anonymity.

When AA members engage in broad brush smear campaigns directed at
decent and dedicated Trusted Servants, the action is slander and
nothing less. The internet has been an unfortunate forum for much AA
fable and editorials masquerading as AA history. It ranges from the
baseless denigration of Trusted Servants to the equally absurd notion
of miniscule recovery rate outcomes in AA today compared to early AA
(which will be the topic of a future posting).

These matters warrant scrutiny. They are the products of an agenda not
historical research and analysis. While AAHistoryLovers is not
supposed to be a debating platform, it is supposed to be a forum
dedicated to the accurate presentation and defense of historical
facts. Nancy O, the founder of this forum, had a strong dedication to
this end and that dedication continues.

Each paragraph of the response in message 2863 to the original
postings is addressed below.

1st paragraph of message 2863:
==============================

“OK.... I haven't noticed anywhere in the materials presented by Art
on behalf of AAWS, Inc. that the official and sanctioned German
translation of the Big Book has removed virtually all references to
God and spirituality. These references have been replaced by
psychological and secular terms totally removing spirituality and God
from the Big Book.”

Reply:
======

It was not mentioned because the translation was acceptable to AAWS,
the German General Service Board and Conference. It is not a
prevailing issue except in the mind of the German member who infringed
upon AA copyrights and his minions.

Germany, like the US and Canada, has a General Service structure
composed of a General Service Board, GSO and Conference. The Board is
a legal entity; the Conference is not. The approval of translations of
AA literature is a function of the local licensee in cooperation with
AAWS. The copyright of the Big Book is still in force outside the US
among signatories to the Pan American Convention Treaty regarding
trademarks and copyrights. This was validated by both the German lower
court and appeals court (also in Mexico).

While some in AA make personal pronouncements of AA being a pristine
“spiritual entity” it demonstrates an unfortunate naiveté regarding
the evolutionary history of AA and why, what today are called the
“General Service Board,” “AAWS” and “AA Grapevine” were
established as
corporations.

The word “corporation” is not a pejorative. In addition to being a
spiritual entity AA is a legal entity. The service Manual is quite
explicit about this and the concept has been in place since the late
1930s. The legal entity part is quite relevant to the protection of
AA’s primary tangible assets: its literature, its copyrights and its
trademarks (which include its name).

If a member (or group of members) takes issue with a translation they
can certainly voice their objection but they are not endowed with any
authority or inherent right to appoint themselves to be an independent
publishing arm of AA. No individual member is appointed, elected or
authorized to act in behalf of AA. That responsibility and authority
is well defined and established by the inverted pyramid of Groups,
Districts, Areas (Delegates) and Conferences. That is the method for
deriving the informed group conscience of the geographical area served
by the Conference.

The most significant reason, however, for not mentioning the purported
translation shortcomings is that it is a canard for the German member
to take refuge behind as a self-appointed defender of the purity of
the Big Book. The member was not elected, appointed or vested with any
responsibility or duty to do what he has done.

Neither AAWS nor the German Board was under any obligation to consent
to what the member wanted to do no matter what his stated reasons or
intentions. AAWS has the both the legal and spiritual authority to say
yes or no in matters related to reprinting AA literature. The
spiritual aspect has to do with creating “service boards or committees
directly responsible to those they serve.”

There is nothing in AA’s history, or principles, to suggest that AA is
supposed to follow the Gideon Bible model and give Big Books away free
of charge to anyone and everyone. Historically that has never been the
objective of the Big Book despite the grandiose pronouncements of the
“free book” crowd. Big Book income initially supported Dr Bob and Bill
W through their lifetime royalties, paid back Rockefeller and his
dinner guests for their loans, and compensated for the shortfall in
member and group donations to support essential services in the
General Service Office (a function which it still serves worldwide to
date).
.
If individual members wish to purchase Big Books and give them away
then that is an entirely different matter and a very noble one to say
the least. This is not the case with the German member. His objective
was to translate, publish and distribute the Big Book throughout
several countries.
.
Individual AA members do not “own” the Big Book in a literal sense.
AAWS is the legal entity that holds legal title to AA literature
(other than the Grapevine). It was set up that way shortly after
publication of the Big Book (via the Alcoholic Foundation, Works
Publishing Inc, AA Publishing Inc and AAWS) and is still set up that
way today. It’s been working well for almost 7 decades.

The German member acted contrary to the law of his country (and other
countries) and brought the resulting consequences on himself through
his own actions (not the actions of the German or US Boards or AAWS).
While some may elect to call the German member’s actions “12th Step
Work” others called it “copyright infringement” and the
“others” were
the ones who prevailed in the matter.

The Big Book translation was deemed satisfactory to the German General
Service Board and General Service Conference and AAWS. They are the
entities vested with that responsibility and duty. They are elected to
do it by a representative democracy acting through the General Service
Conferences. It’s a process that started over half a century ago. It
is not broken and doesn’t need mending.

The response (message 2863) to my posting contains an unfortunate
statement by the respondent of a suspect omission in my posting that
the translation omitted much in the way of references to spirituality
and God. Based on information (by the same respondent) posted in
another internet forum, claims of omissions in the German translation
rest solely on anecdotal hearsay.

Those making the claims don’t really know one way or another what is,
or isn’t, contained in the translations? This is what has me so
concerned, particularly when shortcomings in the German translation
are supposed to be such a prominent matter motivating the German
member to do what he did and driving the harsh criticism of AAWS and
General Service Boards.

These criticisms leveled against the Board, AAWS, GSO (and myself it
so happens) are a distortion of the truth and poison the atmosphere.
Members of our Fellowship seem to be losing the disposition to engage
in civil discussion as opposed to divisive demagoguery. I’m all for a
good brisk discussion and defense of various viewpoints but not at the
expense of civility and mutual respect.

2nd paragraph of message 2863:
==============================

“The text published by AABBSG in Germany and distributed for free was
a literal translation of the original text which is true to the
original rather than destroying what AA's founding members wrote. In
order to be fair and unbiased, I wonder why neither Art nor AAWS, Inc.
ever mention this significant fact?”

Reply:
======

Again, I did not mention it because it is irrelevant. It is a “straw
man” buttressed by much assertion and little evidence. Once again
anecdotal hearsay is being portrayed as “significant fact” when there
is no such fact established.

A presumed fair and unbiased German lower court and appeals court had
years to examine all forms of purported documentation and found the
German member to be in violation of German law. This is the crux of
the matter and all else is diversionary. The German member (despite
his presumed best of intentions) committed either a criminal act or
civil tort or both. The obscure notion of “true to the original” is
being amplified and the quite obvious fact of the man breaking the law
and creating his own sad mess is being completely ignored.

The characterization of “distributed for free” should be qualified by
the fact that the books also contain a notice that donations were
accepted. To my knowledge AABBSG has never published a public
financial statement defining the nature of its business and who
audited it for validity? The US/Canada General Service Board, AAWS and
Grapevine publish this type of documentation annually.

Also, the portrayal of the translation as “destroying what AA’s
founding members wrote” seems more than bit over the top (from someone
who admits they don’t actually know what the translation says one way
or another). By what means did this ignorance of what is actually
contained in the translations evolve into “significant fact”?
.
If there is a sorry omission in the whole story it’s the omission of
acknowledging the proactive role that AAWS plays in getting overseas
entities established by providing their initial stocks of literature
and translation of the literature into the local language. AAWS
allocates substantial funding for this service. It’s the very thing
that so many are “oohing and aahing” about the German member, yet AAWS
has been doing this same thing worldwide for decades without so much
as an iota of recognition of that fact from their critics.

3rd and 4th paragraphs of message 2863:
=======================================

“What may be termed biased is backed up by documentation, something
every historian needs to verify the truth. Simply by making a report
does not make truth in a researcher's vernacular. History will bear
out the truth, no matter which viewpoint is presented. To accuse
slander by a group of people who historically have attacked and
bankrupted many AA members, pulled items for sale off of eBay in
direct restraint of trade and totally ignored AA's Traditions and
Concepts for World Service is like the kettle calling the pot black.
.
Historians, if they be true researchers and tellers of the truth
should not be swayed by this so-called report without demanding
documentation and viewing the documentation presented by a different
voice. If we are to be true to history and our calling, taking this
3-part "document" as fact would be totally against everything I have
ever learned an historian does.”

Reply:
======

I have studied the materials archived on the other web site in depth
over a prolonged period of time. In the main it is a collection of
screeds and testimonials of purported evils and conspiracies fostered
by AAWS and the German Board. The body of material contained
insufficient substance and pertinence to stand in a court of law (a
compelling “significant fact” which is persistently ignored).

It seems that a report made by the General Service Board to the
Delegates doesn’t rise to the level of “documentation.” Yet editorials
by the conspiracy theorists are accepted as near gospel. What’s next
“where is the documentation that backs up the documentation” and then
“where is the documentation that back up the documentation that backs
up the documentation” etc., etc?

In the so-called “documentation” archived on the other web site, the
cherry picking of materials, the paraphrasing and tortuous exercises
in pseudo-legalities are a sad commentary on a body AA members
advocating a grand conspiracy theory as a representation of the
“truth.” The primary fuel driving the effort seems to consist of
little more than collective resentment seeking an outlet and resting
on fantasy. The micro-parsing of the Traditions, Concepts and
selective (very selective) writings to establish a supposed rationale
for criticizing AAWS are convoluted. If this is the sum total
documentary “evidence” against AAWS then there is little wonder that
the German member was found guilty and again lost on appeal.

As far the statement of “group of people who historically have
attacked and bankrupted many AA members” it is not historical truth
and is revisionist.” This type of characterization does far more
divisive harm to the Fellowship than those who are purported to be the
culprits. The officers of the operating corporations of AA (the Board,
AAWS and Grapevine) have a fiduciary responsibility to protect the
assets under their care and can be held individually and severally
liable (monetarily) for failure to do so. That is not hypothetical it
is a hard reality.

The state of New York has a body of law that applies to non-profit
corporations registered in NY. AA is not above that law (the
Traditions and Concepts notwithstanding). The corporate officers have
no choice in the matter but to protect the assets in their care. It’s
part of the real world of being officers of a non-profit corporation
as opposed to just being an AA member posturing over the internet. The
Trustees work without compensation, put in unbelievable hours of
travel and service, all for the privilege of being slandered by
members of our Fellowship. It’s a sorry state of affairs for a
Fellowship whose survival is dependant on our commitment to unity and
mutual support.

While the words “legal” and “law” may seem like heresy to some in
AA,
one very straightforward action of “practicing the principles in all
our affairs” would be the simple maxim of “obey the law” (not act in
defiance of it). AA membership does not carry with it an anointed
station above the law.

Just who are the “many AA members” who have purportedly been attacked
and bankrupted and on what basis is AAWS being portrayed this way?
When have for-profit transactions on e-bay under the misleading
umbrella of “AA Literature” been demonstrated to fall under the notion
of “restraint of trade?” How many other baseless charges will be
issued against AAWS based solely on invective?

The reflex rejection of official documents of record is a rather odd
way of “being true to history and our calling.” My advice in this
matter would be “physician heal thyself.”

5th paragraphs of message 2863:
===============================

“Fellow students of AA history - look at the documentation, read the
Concepts for World Service where it says AA should never sue anyone
and connect with all parties before taking such an inflamitory
document as fact.”

Reply:
======

The notion of the document being inflammatory is absurd. The statement
in the Service Manual does not take precedence over the law. The
matter has also been addressed by the Conference, twice:

In 1993 an ad hoc committee of Delegates was formed to review the
matter of Chips/Medallions (and an attendant lawsuit). The ad hoc
committee made five recommendations for advisory actions in its report
to the Conference:

“a) In agreement with the consensus of the 1958 General Service
Conference, the use of sobriety chips/medallions is a matter for local
autonomy and not one on which the Conference should record a definite
position in behalf of the movement.

b) It is not appropriate for AAWS Inc, or Grapevine Inc to produce or
license the production of sobriety chips/medallions.

c) The Conference find that the initiative of litigation involving
trademarks and service marks is a violation of Warranty Five.

d) The General Service Board take the steps necessary to bring all
policies and practices into conformity with the spirit of the
Warranties and the report and recommendations of the 1993 Ad Hoc
Committee on Chips/Medallions.

e) The General Service Board develop a new policy statement on the
"Use of AA's Trademarks and Logos"(AA Service Manual, p SlO3) that
reflects the spirit of the committee's report and recommendations, and
report back to the 44th General Service Conference on the policy and
its implementation.”

Outcome:
========

The ad hoc committee recommendation c) that “The Conference find that
the initiation of litigation involving trademarks and service marks is
a violation of Warranty Five” was not [repeat not] adopted by the
Conference.

The ad hoc committee recommendation d) that “The General Service Board
take the steps necessary to bring all policies and practices into
conformity with the spirit of the Warranties and the report and
recommendations of the 1993 Ad Hoc Committee on Chips/Medallions” was
not [repeat not] adopted by the Conference.

The ad hoc committee recommendation e) that “The General Service Board
develop a new policy statement on the "Use of AA's Trademarks and
Logos" (The AA Service Manual, p S103) that reflects the spirit of the
committee's report and recommendations, and report back to the 44th
General Service Conference on the policy and its implementation” was
withdrawn by the committee due to the fact that the two
recommendations (c and d) above were not adopted by the Conference.”

Action 3 years later by the 1996 Conference
===========================================

In the 1996 Conference a floor action was submitted stating: “Propose
a Conference recommendation that the General Service Board and its
subsidiary boards, AA World Services Inc and The AA Grapevine Inc,
initiate no litigation regarding the protection of copyrights or
trademarks.”

The floor action was not [repeat not] adopted by the Conference.

While there has never been a Conference advisory action endorsing the
undertaking of lawsuits, there have been two occasions where the
Conference has declined to expressly prohibit them when given the
opportunity to do so.

Epilogue
========

I would sincerely hope that over the years I have established a
reputation in this forum for attention to detail and honesty and
integrity in the information I have posted.

It is no secret that I am taking issue with a body of AA members that
have used the internet far too long and without challenge to engage in
broad-brush character assassination of many good Trusted Servants.

I have never witnessed so many coarse and baseless allegations
directed at so many decent people with so little in the way of
substantiation.

Gerry F, a past Western Canadian Regional Trustee, made a report to
the 1995 General Service Conference that is quite prescient and, I
believe, precisely sums up a genuine challenge in AA today.

From Gerry F’s report to the 1995 Conference:
=============================================

“I think that the greatest hurdle this Fellowship will face in the
next ten years will not concern copyrights nor whether litigation is
public controversy nor the proliferation of self-help psycho-babble. I
feel that the greatest hurdle we face today and in the foreseeable
future is the spill-over into our Fellowship of the cynicism and
distrust that are exhibited in our North American society at large in
regard to its public servants.

I have noticed with growing concern that letters from members of the
Fellowship are more and more suspicious of the motives of the leaders
we have chosen to serve us. There was a time within my short l8 year
experience in this Fellowship when arguments abounded about principles
and what the best course of action might be. But there was always the
underlying premise that both sides thought they knew what was the
greatest good for the longest time. And when the vote was taken, and
upwards of two-thirds voted for fuchsia colored name tags, the
proponents of the brown tags might have their minority say, but would
accept the decision of a Higher Power "as He may express Himself in
our group conscience."

I sometimes wonder if we can still do that. More often I hear the
minority either questioning the motives of an "influential" leader in
swaying the majority; or else, insisting that the body wasn't well
informed, and then when the group does have the information, saying
that the body is not responsible (not listening) and that it has
become a law unto itself.

The thing that's missing is acceptance by the minority of the group
conscience decision […]

Not one of us is given a torch big enough to lead the drunks of the
world out of the darkness and into the light. Instead, each of us has
been given a candle that burns for a short while with a flickering
flame. If we stand together, the light will outshine the greatest
torch. If we argue and bicker and blow at each other's candle so that
each of us starts shielding our own little flame, then the alcoholics
of the world will continue to suffer in darkness-and so will we.

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++++Message 2874. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Living Sober book
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2005 9:48:00 PM

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I am looking for aa speaker tapes of Barry L
can anyone help me??

LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jim Blair <jblair@v...> wrote:
>
>
> I have a question about the history behind one of the conference-
approved
> books AA has today which is "Living Sober."
>
> Excerpt from AA World History (unpublished manuscript)
>
> "Living Sober," the other booklet, published in 1975, had a more
tortuous
> history. Around 1968, there were discussions by the Board of the
need for a
> pamphlet for sober old-timers, and the need to point out "traps"
or "danger
> signals." Members of the Literature Committee and others were asked
to
> submit their ideas. Out of this grew a specific proposal for a
piece of
> literature to be developed around the topic, "How We Stay Sober."
It was in
> outline form by October 1969, and was assigned to a professional
writer on
> the staff of a prestigious national magazine. After nearly two
years of
> work, he submitted a complete draft.. Which everyone agreed would
not do at
> all. They felt it needed such drastic revision that it should be
started
> again from scratch by a new author. Barry L., a seasoned, skillful
freelance
> writer/consultant for G.S.O. was given the task. With Bob H.,
general
> manager of G.S.O., he negotiated a flat fee for the project. After
four and
> a half years of organizing material and writing . and probably some
> procrastinating, as well, Barry came up with a simple, intensely
practical,
> charmingly written manual on how to enjoy a happy, productive life
without
> drinking. It was not spiritual and contained nothing about getting
sober;
> but it was chock-full of the kind of advice and suggestions a
newcomer might
> get from a super-sponsor. ("A.A.'s First Aid Kit" was Bayard's name
for it.)
> And it was written in a style unlike any other A.A. literature:
breezy,
> impertinent, colloquial and informal. "Living Sober" proved to be
hugely
> popular, and after it had sold nearly a million copies, Barry L.
felt he
> should have been compensated more generously and should receive
some sort of
> royalty. He sent a letter to all past Trustees and G.S.O. staff
members with
> whom he was acquainted, to advance his claim. The AAWS Board and
the General
> Service Board considered his case, but declined to take action. He
then
> threatened legal recourse, but perhaps realizing the weakness of
his case,
> never followed through.
>
> Jim
>

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++++Message 2875. . . . . . . . . . . . Ozzie''s funeral in East Dorset,
Vermont
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2005 11:18:00 PM

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Ozzie, caretaker of the Wilson House in East Dorset, Vermont, will be buried
on
Thursday, December 1, 2005.

Original message from: Bill Lash barefootbill@optonline.net (barefootbill at
optonline.net)
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 at 11:38 a.m.
Topic: Arrangements for Ozzie
Forwarded by: "Ernest Kurtz" <kurtzern@umich.edu> (kurtzern at umich.edu)

I just got this email earlier today. For those of you who do not know, Ozzie
&
Bonnie are the caretakers of the Wilson House in East Dorset, Vermont. The
Wilson House is where Bill Wilson was born & lived until his mid-teens.
Ozzie
was a great man.

The Wilson House contact info is PO Box 46, East Dorset, VT 05253 & their
phone
number is 802-362-5524.

_____________________________________

Dear Friends,

At 12:29 a.m., November 28th, our beloved Ozzie went to be with the Lord. He
was surrounded by his family and went peacefully to his reward. Thank you
all
for your prayers, love, and support. We ask for your continued prayers that
we
may all be strong with God's help and guidance.

Arrangements for Ozzie have been made and are as follows:

Wednesday 11/30 ~ Brewster's Funeral Home, Manchester, VT - Calling hours: 4
to
7 P.M.

Thursday 12/1 ~ Service at First Congregational Church, East Dorset Vermont:
11
A.M.

Burial: Following Service - East Dorset Cemetery

Love, Bonnie, Kathly, Albert, Jennifer, Curt, Janet, Nelson, Mike, Kevin,
and
all the grandchildren

God is good... all the time!

_____________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2876. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Lawsuit in Germany: posting 1
of 3
From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2005 9:46:00 AM

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I too was mystified.

I have the official Russian BB here. Nothing was changed. However, a
thoughtful foreword was included. Written by an early Russian member, it
does an
excellent job of contextualizing the book's spirituality
"for the Soviet reader." I made a translation of that foreword in
1992 and would be happy to send it to anyone interested.

Arkie
Honolulu

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++++Message 2877. . . . . . . . . . . . correct URL for "Cup of Tea"
From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2005 10:02:00 AM

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I included an incorrect url for the "Cup of Tea"/"Gresham's Law"
document that I inquired about yesterday. The correct url is

http://aabbsg.de/oppf/24_mag.htm

My thanks to Arkie K. for pointing this out to me.

Trysh Travis

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++++Message 2878. . . . . . . . . . . . FW: correct URL for "Cup of Tea"
From: david jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2005 12:11:00 AM

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You can also find the document on 'Gresham's Law' on the website of the
Primary
Purpose Group of Alcoholics Anonymous in Dallas, Texas:

http://www.ppgaadallas.org/

It is listed there under AA Articles:

http://www.ppgaadallas.org/aa_articles.htm

as "Gresham's Law and AA":

http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ppgaa6%20Articles/gresham's%20law.doc

God bless
Dave

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++++Message 2879. . . . . . . . . . . . Came to Believe book
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2005 9:05:00 PM

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Who has info about the gentle man who wrote the
Came to Believe book??

thanks LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com

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++++Message 2880. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Translating English into German
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2005 2:09:00 PM

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I’d like to add a post script to this information-rich posting along
with an equally informative posting regarding the translation of
English into Hebrew from Alex H.

As is evident from Glenn’s and Alex’s postings, in order to do
historical justice to the term “translation” (and set a proper context
for the substance of the word) it is important that the word
“translation” not be perceived fundamentally as merely taking a word
from a source language and converting it to a like word in another
language.

This type of translation opportunity (and luxury) more often than not
rarely exists. The challenges of maintaining “trueness to the
original” from source to receptor languages, and making "natural use"
sense in the grammar and context of receptor language, is orders of
magnitude more difficult and challenging.

One of my favorite historical interests (in addition to AA history) is
the origin and historical evolution (in terms of translations) of
Scripture. Scripture is unique among all writings in that the
believers (myself included) view its origin as divine. It also is
unique in terms of the supreme priority of attempting to be “true to
the original” (the divine source) when actual original manuscripts no
longer exist and one must begin with the earliest possible
translations of the originals.

A wonderful book that describes the science, art and complexities of
translation is titled “The Origin of the Bible” (Tyndale House
Publishers) by E. F. Bruce, J. I. Packer, Philip Comfort and Carl F.
H. Henry. The book is a collection of academic papers by distinguished
faculty theologians and linguists of several Universities. The papers
are written in elegant and plain style for the lay person. The
description of the challenges and complexities related to translation
are stunning. Among the more amusing, I’d like to cite a few
paragraphs from the book on just translating the words “of” and
“the.”

"Origins of the Bible" (starting on pg 246)
Two Simple Words: “of” and “the”

“The word “of” is very common in English, and it is used to represent
a wide variety of relationships between words. In only the first
chapter of the Gospel of Mark, nine different English translations use
the word “of” between eighteen and thirty-one times. The word
represents such relationships as possession, kinship, location, names
of geographical places and features, the material from which something
is made, political jurisdictions, the doer of an action, and so on.
But there is no word “of” in Greek at all! [note: ancient Greek being
the source language of the manuscript] Greek has other ways of
expressing those relationships that are translated by “of” in English.

Spanish has a word for “of” (de), but it is used for some purposes
where it would not sound right in English.

Another common English word is “the.” The article in English is much
simpler than in Spanish, which has four forms; el, los, la, las. These
distinguish between singular and plural as well as between masculine
and feminine.

In Greek the article "the" is spelled seventeen different ways and
performs twenty-four different grammatical functions [...]

Thus, even such simple words as "the" and "of" differ remarkably from
one language to another in the complex interplay between grammar and
meaning. Nothing about the source documents can be taken for granted
in the translation process, and the normal structures of the receptor
language must be employed with care to insure accurate, appropriate,
and natural translation.

The problem for the translator is to find, in the receptor language,
those forms that will appropriately represent the structure of the
source language-first as to meaning, style, and naturalness, then as
much as possible as to form."

An added note:

The book described that there are over 50 forms in ancient Greek of
expressing the word "love." Now wouldn't that be a challenge just to
translate Dr Bob reducing the Steps to the simple words "love and
service" or Tradition Two's description of "a loving God."

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2881. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom P (for Trysh Travis)
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2005 4:56:00 PM

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The editor of 24 was Tom P who just recently died (I think) on
the "commune" in upstate NY. He was the principal editor for the
12&12, the author of the article in question on Gresham's Law and AA,
sometime close friend of Bill W., and his papers have recently been
sold (or are being sold) in pieces on eBay. I think he was younger
than Bill by about fifteen years, so perhaps b 1911 d 2005?

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++++Message 2882. . . . . . . . . . . . Changing "those" to "these" in 12th
step wording
From: mark_area56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2005 3:45:00 PM

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I'm curious as to when and where the 12th step wording was changed,
and I can offer the following which I have already found.

"Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of THOSE steps"
occurs in my copies of the First edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous" (I
have a 9th and two 12th printings) and the first printing of the
Second edition. (1955)

"Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of THESE steps"
occurs in my copy of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" First
edition, first printing (The AA Publications printing) from 1953 and
the 13th printing of the Second edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous".

It appears that in 1953 we were moving to "THESE" in the 12 & 12, but
still retained it for a while in the Big Book at least until 1955.
Do you know when the wording was officially changed? Or was this
some sort of slow editorial change without much AA fanfare?

Thanks

Mark

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++++Message 2883. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry L on the Traditions
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/2/2005 10:14:00 AM

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Those interested in Barry L. will find his remarks on the Traditions
in BEST OF THE GRAPEVINE I pp. 34-39 (I), 95-100 (II), 39-43 (III),
104-109 (IV), 67-70 (V), 250-254 (VI), 114-119 (VII), 259-264 (VIII),
264-269 (IX), 222-227 (X), 70-75 (XI), and 191-194 (XII), making up
altogether about a fifth (!) of that volume. I think they should be
reprinted consecutively in a pamphlet. -- Jared Lobdell

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++++Message 2884. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Came to Believe book
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2005 1:41:00 AM

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LD wrote
Who has info about the gentle man who wrote the
Came to Believe book??

Excerpt from unpublished manuscript on AA History by Bob P., 1985.

"Came to Believe," published in 1973, is a collection of stories by A.A.
members who tell in their own words what the phrase "spiritual awakening"
means to them. Five years previously, an A.A. member had pointed out the
need, because many newcomers translate the word "spiritual" in A.A. as
meaning "religious." The aim was to show the diversity of convictions
implied in "God as we understood Him,".. With which Bill was in delighted
agreement. Except for six pieces from the Grapevine the remainder of the
contributions were written especially for the book in response to an appeal
by G.S.O. and represent the broadest possible sampling of members from all
parts of the U.S. and Canada and around the world. The first cover of "Came
to Believe" was a photograph of a tender shoot in spring, peeping up through
the snow..beautifully symbolic, but perhaps too subtle for the browser at
the literature table. It was replaced by a simple dark blue title on an all
white background, still low-key and unobtrusive. After 1985, it was given a
bright red cover with gold stamping.

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++++Message 2885. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Living Sober book
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/30/2005 6:43:00 PM

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Hi,
I see that Dick Martin at Dicobe has seven Barry Leach tapes. He can be
reached at 1-800-999-3381. I believe he charges $5.50 per tape.
Mel Barger

----- Original Message -----
From: "diazeztone" <eztone@hotmail.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Living Sober
book

>I am looking for aa speaker tapes of Barry L
>can anyone help me??
>
> LD Pierce www.aabibliography.com

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++++Message 2886. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Living Sober book
From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2005 11:00:00 PM

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Yes, there is a WONDERFUL recording of him speaking on

http://www.xa-speakers.org/

I LOVE Barry... he is one of my all time favorites.

----- Original Message -----
From: "diazeztone" <eztone@hotmail.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 6:48 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Living Sober book

> I am looking for aa speaker tapes of Barry L
> can anyone help me

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++++Message 2887. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Tom P (for Trysh Travis)
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2005 6:51:00 AM

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Good morning all! Just so you know, "Greshams Law & AA" was not written by
Tom P., it was written by Tom P.'s son Tom P. Jr.
Happy holidays!

Just Love,

BFB

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of jlobdell54
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:56 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Tom P (for Trysh Travis)

The editor of 24 was Tom P who just recently died (I think) on
the "commune" in upstate NY. He was the principal editor for the
12&12, the author of the article in question on Gresham's Law and AA,
sometime close friend of Bill W., and his papers have recently been
sold (or are being sold) in pieces on eBay. I think he was younger
than Bill by about fifteen years, so perhaps b 1911 d 2005?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2888. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: correct URL for "Cup of Tea"
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2005 11:20:00 AM

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Hi Trysh,

The "Gresham's" article originally appeared in the July 1976 issue of
*24 Magazine*. I think the group still exists in the Hankins, NY, area
(somebody on this AAHL list will surely send it in), and I am quite sure
that they would cooperate with your research, especially if Tom P., Jr.
is still alive.

ernie kurtz

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++++Message 2889. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Changing "those" to "these" in
12th step wording
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2005 8:36:00 AM

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Hello Mark

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the 1st edition Big Book. The term “spiritual experience” was
changed to “spiritual awakening” and the term “as the result of these
steps” was changed to “as the result of those steps.”

An appendix titled “Spiritual Experience” was also added to the Big
Book in the 2nd printing of the 1st edition. This was done because
many members thought they had to have a sudden and spectacular
spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital.
The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences were of the
type that the psychologist William James called the “educational
variety.”

There is a very brief mention of the Step 12 wording change from
"experience" to "awakening" in "AA Comes of Age" in the chapter
"Religion Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous" by Father Ed Dowling (pg
256). Outside of it, I have been unable to find any further references
to the changes in AA literature.

In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again in the 2nd printing of
the 2nd edition Big Book. The term “as the result of those steps” was
restored to its original form of “as the result of these steps.”

The 1976 General Service Conference approved publication of the 3rd
edition Big Book.

The 1976 Conference also expanded a 1955 provision of the Conference
Charter to specify that any change to the Steps, Traditions or
Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of the General Service
Conference Charter, would require written approval of 75% of the AA
Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory Action makes any change
whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a virtual
impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma).

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mark_area56
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:45 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Changing "those" to "these" in 12th step
wording

I'm curious as to when and where the 12th step wording was changed,
and I can offer the following which I have already found.

"Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of THOSE steps"
occurs in my copies of the First edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous" (I
have a 9th and two 12th printings) and the first printing of the
Second edition. (1955)

"Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of THESE steps"
occurs in my copy of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" First
edition, first printing (The AA Publications printing) from 1953 and
the 13th printing of the Second edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous".

It appears that in 1953 we were moving to "THESE" in the 12 & 12, but
still retained it for a while in the Big Book at least until 1955.
Do you know when the wording was officially changed? Or was this
some sort of slow editorial change without much AA fanfare?

Thanks

Mark

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--------------------------------------------------------------------~-
>

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2890. . . . . . . . . . . . Sackville
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2005 4:02:00 AM

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Living the Program in All Our Affairs

Copyright © The A.A. Grapevine, Inc., March 1968

More than twelve years have passed since I ended my story in the Big Book
with the words "AA has made me very happy." Nothing that has happened since
has made me change my mind. The personal details of my life in between are
unimportant to anyone but myself. They have made me more grateful to our
founders and to the vast army of my comrades in Alcoholics Anonymous. But
the passage of time has given me more time to think. And in the hope that
what I write will not be taken as the views of an Angry Old Man, I put
forward some of the things I think about.

In No Man Is an Island, Thomas Merton wrote, "Tradition is living and
active, but Convention is passive and dead. Tradition does not form us
automatically; we have to work to understand it. Convention is accepted
passively, as a matter of routine. It offers us only pretended ways of
solving the problems of living, a system of gestures and formalities One
goes through an act, without trying to understand the meaning of it all,
merely because everyone else does the same." Convention does rule the lives
of most of us. We do go through life saying things and doing things because
others do them and say them.

For instance, our Slogans. A slogan originally was the war cry of the
Scottish Highlands. Anyone who can imagine a Highland chief urging his clan
into battle with slogans such as Think or Easy Does It cannot be very well
acquainted with the Scots. Yet for us, today, these AA slogans are very
useful pieces of advice. When we merely accept them passively, as if
brainwashed, that is lazy thinking, and lazy thinking can become an
important defect if applied to our Steps.

The Twelfth Step sets out that our founder members tried to practice these
principles in all their affairs. And still, so many tell us that no one
could possibly apply these principles to his whole life. Is this not lazy
thinking? Do some of us just accept the Steps, to be "with it," without
working out what these principles really are for each of us?

My own list of the principles I must practice consists of:realism, with its
frequent reminders of humility; faith, anchored to some unchanging norm of
goodness (God, as I understand Him); atonement; patience; and thinking with
spiritual discipline. Can I honestly tell myself that the practice (though
not the finished accomplishment) of these principles is impossible for me in
all my affairs?

Perhaps with advantage to ourselves -- especially at the start -- we might
pay more attention to a few words in our purpose: to solve our common
problem. Our common problem is not, as we quite naturally may have thought,
just to stop drinking period; we can all remember from our past the dreary,
unending sequence of stop, restart, stop, restart. The problem is to remain
securely abstinent permanently, albeit we work at it one day at a time.
Obviously, no one will stay dry for long or willingly unless life without
drink gives him satisfaction. He can arrive at that satisfaction only by
learning to live with himself in peace, with his neighbour in charity, and
with his conscience in reasonable repose. That, at least for me, is the
guide motif of our Steps. That is why it doesn't now seem right to me to go
about saying, "AA is a strange program," though I used to for a time. It no
longer appears strange to me. It seems the only sort of recovery program
that could possibly work for an alcoholic. Yet so many of us still tell a
newcomer that he has only to stay dry for today and to come to meetings. The
meetings won't practice the Steps for him, though they may and should help
him to persevere in his own practice of them. Even the most meeting-minded
member has to pass many hours of the day when he is alone and must depend on
his own inner strength. These are the hours when practice of these
principles in all his affairs must cease to be a conventional, superficial
acceptance of them and become a matter of the heart and the will.

I find that over the years I have acquired a few mild dislikes. The calling
of the Higher Power, or God as we understand Him, "The Man Upstairs" is one.
The advertising of some member as a star speaker and a special attraction is
another. (This isn't envy!) Can we not take every speaker, silver-tongued or
tongue-tied, at his real value of being another alcoholic who is doing his
best to stay recovered himself and trying to help us to do the same? And I
do somehow feel from time to time that the increasing number of conventions
and the like, through the amount of preliminary organization and work
involved, are diverting time and effort from our primary purpose. These
distastes are, however, very slight ripples in a sea of contentment. In the
sense that I have been a member of our group for all but five months of its
more than twenty years' existence, I suppose I rank as an old-timer.

My group has always been marvellously kind to me and tolerant of a
personality that has consistently demanded a great measure of tolerance.
Old-timers must often be a headache to younger members. But the old-timer
who has come to realize, as I hope I have myself, that he is not God's gift
to AA, but that AA is God's gift to him, still has something good to give to
his group: the demonstration of his continued sobriety, his active
membership, and his gratitude for his recovery to -- under God -- the
Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.

My prayer for my AA contemporaries and myself is that we may to the end
remain, in Tennyson's words, "Strong in will / To strive, to seek, to find
and not to yield."

S. M., Dublin, Ireland

Copyright © The A.A. Grapevine, Inc., March 1968

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2892. . . . . . . . . . . . Tom P. and Gresham''s Law article
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2005 4:09:00 PM

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From Mitchell K. on Tom Powers and the Gresham's Law article
mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

Gresham's Law and AA was written by Tom Powers ( I forget whether it was Sr.
or Jr but seem to remember it was Sr.) *

It was originally published in 24 Magazine published by the East Ridge
Community in Hankins NY. I have visited East Ridge several times and have
met
with Tom Sr. (who recently passsed away) and Tom Jr. as well as several
members
of that community. If I remember correctly, they also used to have what they
called "ALL ADDICT ANONYOUS" and other types of activities there. They had a
school and organic food stores.

Tom Sr. was sponsored by Bill Wilson and after a relapse early on,
maintained
many years of continuous sobriety. Tom helped Bill write the 12&12 (along
with
what Bill called automatic writing from a Benedictine Monk from several
centuries ago)

The East Ridge Press can be contacted at 161 Ridge Road, Hankins, NY 12741
--
(845) 887- 6467. They may even have some reprints of the article in the
original format. A reprint of the article in the 24 Magazine format can be
found
at http://www.silkworth.net/gsowatch/24maga/24.htm

Hope this helps
Mitchell
______________________________

*From the moderator: It was Tom Junior
according to Bill Lash barefootbill@optonline.net (barefootbill at
optonline.net)

In Message 2887 Bill says that "Greshams Law & AA" was written by the son,
Tom
P., Jr.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2893. . . . . . . . . . . . Sandberg quote
From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2005 3:39:00 PM

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Archives sites are fond of this Sandberg quote:

"Whenever a civilization or society declines (or perishes) there is
always one condition present - they forgot where they came from."

Can anyone point out the original source for this?

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++++Message 2894. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant December dates in A.A.
History
From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2005 7:12:00 AM

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Dec 1934 - Bill & Lois start attending Oxford Group meetings.
Dec 1934 to May 1935 - Bill works with alcoholics, but fails to
sober any of them. Lois reminds him HE is sober.
Dec 1938 - Twelve Steps written.
Nov/Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford
Group. Meetings moved from T Henry & Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and
other members homes.
Dec 1939 - First AA group in mental institution, Rockland State
Hospital, NY.
Dec 1939 - 1st home meeting in Los Angeles at Kaye M.'s house.
Dec 1939 - Matt Talbot Club has 88 members, uses wagons to collect
old
furniture to recondition & sell, not A.A., used A.A. program,
material,
marked 1st effort reach alcoholics outside married middle-class
category.
Dec 1940 - 1st AA group formed in St. Louis, Missouri.
Dec 1940 - group started Ashtabula, Ohio due to Plain Dealer
articles. A.A. Cleveland has about 30 groups.
Dec 1948 - Dr. Bob's last major talk, in Detroit.
Dec 1950 - Grapevine article signed by both Bill and Dr Bob
recommend establishing AA General Service Conference.
Dec 1955 - 'Man on the Bed' painting by Robert M. first appeared in
Grapevine. Painting originally called 'Came to Believe'
Dec 1982 - Nell Wing retires from GSO after 35 years of service.
Dec 1, 1940 - Chicago Daily Tribune begins a series of articles on
AA by Nall Hamilton.
Dec 5, 1985 - Dave B, founder of Montreal Group dies weeks before
50th anniversary. His story added to the 4th Edition Big Book.
Dec 6, 1939 - Bert the Tailor lends Works Publishing $1000.
Dec 6, 1979 - Akron Beacon reports death of Henrietta Sieberling.
Dec 7, 1949 - Sister Ignatia received Poverello Medal on behalf of
A.A.
Dec 10, 1975 - Birds of a Feather AA group for pilots is formed.
Dec 11, 1934 - Bill admitted to Towns Hosp 4th/last time
(fall '33, '34 in summer, midsummer and final admittance).
Dec 11, 1941 - Dallas Morning News reports 1st AA group formed in
Dallas.
Dec 12, 1934 - Bill has Spiritual Experience at Towns Hospital.
Dec 12, 1937 - Bill meets with Rockefeller Foundation and tries to
get money.
Dec 13, 1937 - Rockland State Mental Hospital takes patients to
meeting
in New Jersey.
Dec 13 or 14, 1934 - Ebby visited Bill at hospital, brought William
James's book, "Varieties of Religious Experience".
Dec 19, 1939 - Los Angeles hold their 1st AA meeting there.
Dec 20, 1945 - Rowland H dies (he carried the Oxford Gp message to
Ebby).
Dec 27, 1893 - Rev Samuel Shoemaker is born.

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++++Message 2895. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator not available Dec 5-9,
2005
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2005 6:40:00 PM

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The moderator will be out of town and traveling around or visiting with
Steve
and Louise C. from Fairmount, Indiana, for most of the time from Monday,
December 5 to Friday, December 9, 2005.

If you could wait until the weekend to send your messages in for posting, it
would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2896. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant December dates in
A.A. History
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2005 2:30:00 PM

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Hi Chesbayman56,

By way of friendly inquiry I have Lois refering to the first meeting
at Blythewood Sanatarium, in Grenwich, CT. as Friday, June 16, 1939 at
which time Marty was still a patient. This would obviously predate the
December 1939 date for the Rockland State Hospital meeting. There may
also have been an earlier meeting at Greystone Park Psychiatric
Hospital during Morgan R.'s stay there but I will have to check.
Blythwood was what today would be called a small private treatment
facility while both Rockland and Greystone remain ominous spawling
asylums.

Most of Greystone is closed and in ruin, which made it a great place
for exploration not long ago (not that I would ever consider
trespassing or recommending such).

Rockland is known for the patient Joe R. who has been refered to as a
hopeless wetbrain in our literature, but is said to have blurted out,
"Why don't you call it Anonymous Alcoholics" at a meeting regarding
naming the book". When doing the Black Sheep research at GSO I recall
some correspondence which indicated that Joe may have gotten better
for varying lengths of time. From what I know, a wet brain never
recovers and is usually a lifer. Joe did escape at least once where he
quickly got drunk and was returned to Rockland. The recovery periods
were a few years later. I don't have my notes on Joe so this is from
memory. If anyone chooses to research this at GSO start at 1939 and go
thru 1945.

All the best,
-merton

-------------------------------------------------

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "chesbayman56"
<chesbayman56@y...> wrote:
>
> Dec 1934 - Bill & Lois start attending Oxford Group meetings.
> Dec 1934 to May 1935 - Bill works with alcoholics, but fails to
> sober any of them. Lois reminds him HE is sober.
> Dec 1938 - Twelve Steps written.
> Nov/Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford
> Group. Meetings moved from T Henry & Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and
> other members homes.
> Dec 1939 - First AA group in mental institution, Rockland State
> Hospital, NY.
> Dec 1939 - 1st home meeting in Los Angeles at Kaye M.'s house.
> Dec 1939 - Matt Talbot Club has 88 members, uses wagons to collect
> old
> furniture to recondition & sell, not A.A., used A.A. program,
> material,
> marked 1st effort reach alcoholics outside married middle-class
> category.
> Dec 1940 - 1st AA group formed in St. Louis, Missouri.
> Dec 1940 - group started Ashtabula, Ohio due to Plain Dealer
> articles. A.A. Cleveland has about 30 groups.
> Dec 1948 - Dr. Bob's last major talk, in Detroit.
> Dec 1950 - Grapevine article signed by both Bill and Dr Bob
> recommend establishing AA General Service Conference.
> Dec 1955 - 'Man on the Bed' painting by Robert M. first appeared in
> Grapevine. Painting originally called 'Came to Believe'
> Dec 1982 - Nell Wing retires from GSO after 35 years of service.
> Dec 1, 1940 - Chicago Daily Tribune begins a series of articles on
> AA by Nall Hamilton.
> Dec 5, 1985 - Dave B, founder of Montreal Group dies weeks before
> 50th anniversary. His story added to the 4th Edition Big Book.
> Dec 6, 1939 - Bert the Tailor lends Works Publishing $1000.
> Dec 6, 1979 - Akron Beacon reports death of Henrietta Sieberling.
> Dec 7, 1949 - Sister Ignatia received Poverello Medal on behalf of
> A.A.
> Dec 10, 1975 - Birds of a Feather AA group for pilots is formed.
> Dec 11, 1934 - Bill admitted to Towns Hosp 4th/last time
> (fall '33, '34 in summer, midsummer and final admittance).
> Dec 11, 1941 - Dallas Morning News reports 1st AA group formed in
> Dallas.
> Dec 12, 1934 - Bill has Spiritual Experience at Towns Hospital.
> Dec 12, 1937 - Bill meets with Rockefeller Foundation and tries to
> get money.
> Dec 13, 1937 - Rockland State Mental Hospital takes patients to
> meeting
> in New Jersey.
> Dec 13 or 14, 1934 - Ebby visited Bill at hospital, brought William
> James's book, "Varieties of Religious Experience".
> Dec 19, 1939 - Los Angeles hold their 1st AA meeting there.
> Dec 20, 1945 - Rowland H dies (he carried the Oxford Gp message to
> Ebby).
> Dec 27, 1893 - Rev Samuel Shoemaker is born.
>

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++++Message 2897. . . . . . . . . . . . Sackville Of Dublin
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2005 1:26:00 PM

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Below letter send to GSO by the Secretary of the Newcomer's Group in Bristol
England regarding having Sackville of Dublin's story reinstated in the Big
Book.

Alcoholics Anonymous

Newcomers Group

c/o 103 Queens Road, Clifton, Bristol, England

The General Service Board

A A W S Inc

475 Riverside Drive

New York NY 10115

USA January 3rd, 2002

Dear Fellow Travellers in the Fellowship of the Spirit,

I am writing to you with regard to the Fourth Edition of the Big Book, to
put on record my home group’s dismay at the decision to drop ‘The Career
Officer’ from the new book. We feel this is a mistake and a very sad day
for
Alcoholics Anonymous. Sackville of Dublin who’s story was the Career
Officer, was a legend in AA and was described by Nell Wing as ‘living AA
history’ and though he has long since past away his story has held good in
AA for 47 years appearing in both the 2nd and 3rd Editions. We argue for his
inclusion in any second printing of the fourth edition on historical
grounds, the very same argument used to keep sixteen of the old Stories.
Sackville was counted as a personal friend by Bill W. They came from the
same generation. They both fought in the First World War and they enjoyed
playing the violin together. It was Bill who asked Sackville to write his
story for inclusion in the 2nd edition. Bill described Sackville in ‘AA
Comes of Age’ as ‘AA’s greatest Correspondent.’ Indeed in this area
he was
prolific and through his letters sponsored hundreds of AA’s all over the
world.

He was an AA pioneer of the highest caliber, the first secretary of the
First Dublin group, the first AA group in Europe. He got sober in April 1947
after attending his first ever meeting at the struggling Country Shop. He
got this group established and became the ‘mainstay of AA in Eire’. It
was
through his offices that AA gained acceptance with the Catholic church in
Ireland, a very important barrier to overcome for anything new in the
Emerald Isle. He started the first AA meeting in Wales, while there as an
International sports referee. And with Richard P. he was the spearhead of
much of the development of AA in England. He was principle speaker at the
first English convention at Cheltenham in 1956. In 1968 he was the principle
speaker at the historic, third British General Service Conference held in
Manchester. In 1971 his dream of a European Convention was realised and he
was again principle speaker at this landmark European event held in Bristol,
saying sadly, "I am a poor substitute for Bill".

Also at this convention was General Service Office manager Bob Hitchins who
spoke and reminded us that AA was no more an American thing than was the
Human Spirit and he urged us to think of it as universal, comparing AA to a
thing of the spirit and not of one country. The fact that Jesus was born in
Bethlehem he said didn’t matter one iota in one becoming a Christian. Nor
should it matter where AA started. In taking Sackville out from the body of
our basic text it has severed an historic European connection in a very real
way with our movement’s origins. Sackville was not only our group’s
Grandfather but his sponsorship lineage has changed the face of AA in
England. His spirituality was so subtly powerful, that the Jesuits of
Montreal on meeting him considered him the most spiritually developed human
being they had ever met.

Through his correspondence he kept New York informed of events this side of
the Pond. Notable guests he hosted from America were Bill and Lois, Fr Eddie
Dowling and Marty Mann. Indeed it was left to Sackville to wave both Bill
and Lois off from England on there return to America in 1950. He was on
friendly terms with Sister Ignatia and visited her in Akron. We had in our
archives for many years Sister Ignatia’s own personal prayer book with an
inscription for Sackville written in. Sackville founded the Road Back in
1949, now the Irish national journal which he edited every month for over
twenty-eight years. Through this he carried the AA message to thousands
around the world including many loners. One of Sackville’s pigeons was

Jack
McQ a legendry figure of AA in New Zealand.

Sackville was a meticulous keeper of AA records and upon his death in 1979
his collection became the body of Irish archives. A special committee
representing the four provinces of Ireland: Ulster, Munster, Connaught and
Lienster, was convened to handle the vast store. He inspired the English to
start their own AA archives through Travers of Bristol. His death was the
signal of the beginning of European Archives activity.

He brought AA to the attention of Pope Paul V1 and the Vatican in 1972.
Alongside Travers of Bristol they carried the AA message to all the Senior
clergy and to the English speaking colleges in Rome. They directly
influenced and changed the Catholic church’s view on the nature of
alcoholism and its recovery. Dr Jack Norris subsequently followed up this
visit and held talks with Vatican and Italian doctors on the nature of
alcoholism. What followed from this was the Catholic church’s active
involvement in the setting up of education and treatment programmes in Third
World countries. In addition to the education of priests in the seminaries
of Rome about AA and the illness of alcoholism.

We find it ironic that the first story from the new fourth edition to appear
in the Grapevine should be that of a native American woman. In 1954
Sackville was made an honorary chief of the Kiowa Arocha and the Kiowa
Comanche for carrying the AA message to their Reservation in Oklahoma.

What we find most distressing in all this is the lack of consultation in the
decision to drop ‘The Career Officer’. Were not archives in New York
consulted? Did the literature committee actually read or find out a little
about the stories that where already in the book?

It seems a lot of time and effort was put in to reading new stories and very
little put into the ones already there. Almost any AA who reads ‘The
Career
Officer’ cannot fail but be moved by it. If for nothing else it is of
historical interest; it includes mention of the first group in another
Continent; it is pleasing to read of the group’s venue, of the local
paper,
the Evening Mail, which helped so much with publicity for the fledgling
group through the publishing of Sackville’s letters. It also fits the
criteria of a good AA recovery story. In the final two paragraphs are some
of the most moving lines found anywhere in the whole book, a virtual
preamble, all about the purpose and spirit of the AA Way of life. Any AA can
draw strength and inspiration from his words such as: "Success and failure
are never final, and that neither count for very much in the final
assessment of any man who has done his best."

So please, General Service Board reconsider and put ‘The Career Officer’
back in Alcoholics Anonymous. If not between ‘Annie The Cop Fighter’ and
‘The Independent Blonde’ (2nd edition) then find somewhere else (in the
Big
Book) but put Sackville back where he belongs, with his peers, with Bill and
Dr Bob and the other great pioneers of AA. Our Fellowship deserves nothing
less.

Yours Sincerely

Peter H

Hon. Secretary, Newcomers Group

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2898. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: big book manuscript
From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2005 9:19:00 PM

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Some of the answer to your question can be found in a letter which
Ruth Hock wrote to Bill (at his request) regarding her recollections
at the time the original manuscript was being written and revised. In
her letter she said (in part, page 6)" by the time the book was
mimeographed mostly for distribution in an effort to raise money to
carry on and get the book published. There was constant discussion
about detail changes with seemingly little hope for unanimous
agreement so it was finally decided to offer the book to Tom Uzzell
for final editing."

Her letter indicates many discussions in and around the "office" by
various people. It seems apparent that any and all available folks
had an input in the editing process there in New york (plus sending it
to Dr Bob at various stages of those first drafts). NOTE: See the
full text of Ruth Hock's letter in a PDF copy at www.cybriety.org

Les C

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "gbaa487" <gbaa487@y...> wrote:
>
> how was it detemined who would get a copy of the big book manuscript
> for review??
> thanks for all the great stuff,
> george
>

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++++Message 2899. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A Question about the Principles
Behind each of the Steps of A.A.
From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2005 9:41:00 PM

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http://www.aabibliography.com/aaprinciples.html

Principles of the 12 Steps: two list here see other list at bottom
of page
STEP: (The steps are printed on pages 59 & 60 of the Big Book.)

1. Surrender. (Capitulation to hopelessness.)

2. Hope. (Step 2 is the mirror image or opposite of step 1. In step 1
we admit that alcohol is our higher power, and that our lives are
unmanageable. In step 2, we find a different Higher Power who we hope
will bring about a return to sanity in management of our lives.)

3. Commitment. (The key word in step 3 is decision.)

4. Honesty. (An inventory of self.)

5. Truth. (Candid confession to God and another human being.)

6. Willingness. (Choosing to abandon defects of character.)

7. Humility. (Standing naked before God, with nothing to hide, and
asking that our flaws—in His eyes—be removed.)

8. Reflection. (Who have we harmed? Are we ready to amend?)

9. Amendment. (Making direct amends/restitution/correction, etc..)

10. Vigilance. (Exercising self-discovery, honesty, abandonment,
humility, reflection and amendment on a momentary, daily, and
periodic basis.)

11. Attunement. (Becoming as one with our Father.)

12. Service. (Awakening into sober usefulness.)

Step 1: Honesty
After many years of denial, recovery can begin when with one simple
admission of
being powerless over alcohol -- for alcoholics and their friends and
family.

Step 2: Faith
It seems to be a spiritual truth, that before a higher power can
begin to operate, you
must first believe that it can.

Step 3: Surrender
A lifetime of self-will run riot can come to a screeching halt, and
change forever, by
making a simple decision to turn it all over to a higher power.

Step 4: Soul Searching
There is a saying in the 12-step programs that recovery is a process,
not an event.
The same can be said for this step -- more will surely be revealed.

Step 5: Integrity
Probably the most difficult of all the steps to face, Step 5 is also
the one that provides
the greatest opportunity for growth.

Step 6: Acceptance
The key to Step 6 is acceptance -- accepting character defects
exactly as they are
and becoming entirely willing to let them go.

Step 7: Humility
The spiritual focus of Step 7 is humility, asking a higher power to
do something that
cannot be done by self-will or mere determination.

Step 8: Willingness
Making a list of those harmed before coming into recovery may sound
simple. Becoming
willing to actually make those amends is the difficult part.

Step 9: Forgiveness
Making amends may seem like a bitter pill to swallow, but for those
serious about
recovery it can be great medicine for the spirit and soul.

Step 10: Maintenance
Nobody likes to admit to being wrong. But it is absolutely necessary
to maintain
spiritual progress in recovery.

Step 11: Making Contact
The purpose of Step 11 is to discover the plan God as you understand
Him has for your
life.

Step 12: Service
For those in recovery programs, practicing Step 12 is simply "how it
works."

The AA Principles and Virtues
(from barefoots world website)

Honesty

Step 1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol - that our
lives had become unmanageable.

Hope

Step 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could
restore us to sanity.

Faith

Step 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the
care of God as we understood him.

Courage

Step 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Integrity

Step 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the
exact nature of our wrongs.

Willingness

Step 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of
character.

Humility

Step 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Brotherly Love

Step 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing
to make amends to them all.

Justice

Step 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except
when to do so would injure them or others.

Perserverance

Step 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong
promptly admitted it.

Spirituality

Step 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our
conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for
knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out.

Service

Step 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these
steps, we tried to carry this message to others, especially
alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

I went out on the web in search of possible further historical
documentation of their origins and found two more listings different
from the above ...

Principles of the 12 Steps

1. Surrender. (Capitulation to hopelessness.)

2. Hope. (Step 2 is the mirror image or opposite of step 1. In step 1
we admit that alcohol is our higher power, and that our lives are
unmanageable. In step 2, we find a different Higher Power who we hope
will bring about a return to sanity in management of our lives.)

3. Commitment. (The key word in step 3 is decision.)

4. Honesty. (An inventory of self.)

5. Truth. (Candid confession to God and another human being.)

6. Willingness. (Choosing to abandon defects of character.)

7. Humility. (Standing naked before God, with nothing to hide, and
asking that our flaws - in His eyes - be removed.)

8. Reflection. (Who have we harmed? Are we ready to amend?)

9. Amendment. (Making direct amends/restitution/correction, etc..)

10. Vigilance. (Exercising self-discovery, honesty, abandonment,
humility, reflection and amendment on a momentary, daily, and
periodic basis.)

11. Attunement. (Becoming as one with our Higher Power.)

12. Service. (Awakening into sober usefulness.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

And another list--

Step 1: Honesty -- After many years of denial, recovery can begin
when with one simple admission of being powerless over alcohol -- for
alcoholics and their friends and family.

Step 2: Faith -- It seems to be a spiritual truth, that before a
higher power can begin to operate, you must first believe that it
can.

Step 3: Surrender -- A lifetime of self-will run riot can come to a
screeching halt, and change forever, by making a simple decision to
turn it all over to a higher power.

Step 4: Soul Searching -- There is a saying in the 12-step programs
that recovery is a process, not an event. The same can be said for
this step -- more will surely be revealed.

Step 5: Integrity -- Probably the most difficult of all the steps to
face, Step 5 is also the one that provides the greatest opportunity
for growth.

Step 6: Acceptance -- The key to Step 6 is acceptance -- accepting
character defects exactly as they are and becoming entirely willing
to let them go.

Step 7: Humility -- The spiritual focus of Step 7 is humility, asking
a higher power to do something that cannot be done by self-will or
mere determination.

Step 8: Willingness -- Making a list of those harmed before coming
into recovery may sound simple. Becoming willing to actually make
those amends is the difficult part.

Step 9: Forgiveness -- Making amends may seem like a bitter pill to
swallow, but for those serious about recovery it can be great
medicine for the spirit and soul.

Step 10: Maintenance -- Nobody likes to admit to being wrong. But it
is absolutely necessary to maintain spiritual progress in recovery.

Step 11: Making Contact -- The purpose of Step 11 is to discover the
plan God as you understand Him has for your life.

Step 12: Service -- For those in recovery programs, practicing Step
12 is simply "How It Works."

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <dikilee@y...> wrote:
>
> The Forword to the 12 & 12 states:
> "A.A.'s Twelve Steps are a group of principles, spiritual in
their
> nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the
obsession
> to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully
whole".
>
> I believe the Traditions and Concepts also are principles in and of
> themselves. As far as I can tell the assignment of a "principle"
to
> each step has been done by individuals in the fellowship and there
are
> a number of different lists of principles.
>
> In the spirit of recovery, Dick.
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricky151530"
> <r_myers9848@s...> wrote:
> >
> > Dear AA History Lovers, first of all thanks so much for being
here.
> > This yahoo group has really opened my eyes to the history of A.A.
I
> > would like to know where the Principles came from? When where
they
> > first writen,and by whom? I have googled it and can't seem to
find
> > information on the way the principles came about. For example...
The
> > principle behind step one is Honesty, for step two its Faith, and
so
> > on.
> > Thanks for any information that can be given.
> > Richard
>

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++++Message 2900. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s House
From: Ed Witte . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2005 9:41:00 AM

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Does anyone live in and maintain Dr Bob's birth place in Vermont, & if
so, is it open to the public?

Ed from Evansville, IN

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++++Message 2901. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fourth Step - Joe and Charlie''s
matrix
From: J. Carey Thomas . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2005 9:03:00 AM

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John,
Thanks for your input on Joe and Charlie. It would seem that
they may have got the idea for the 4th Step spread sheets from Searcy...?

If you would like to see the ones in his "book" please let me
know. Searcy's book was printed in 1990, as I said, and your memory has
J. & C. going to that format after that, "about 1992."
I'm forwarding this exchange along to the AAHistoryLovers forum
on Yahoo; it may be of interest to others....
In love of Service,
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:09:37 EST JWill60366@aol.com writes:
Carey,

Joe and Charlie had a five column inventory when we started the Seminars
in 1983. It changed from a "check-off" to the present form about 1992.
It was about 1992 that the fourth page, "Harms other than Sex" was added
(also five columns).

Hope this helps.

John W

>------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
From: J. Carey Thomas <jct3@juno.com>
To: jwill60366@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 08:51:18 -0500
Subject: Fourth Step - Joe and Charlie's matrix
John,
As a sometime history nut, I was wondering when The Big Book
Seminar started to use and hand out the charts use for clarifying the
fourth step as it is laid out in the Big Book. I have Searcy W.'s book
-- published in 1990 -- and it includes four four-column charts for
resentments, fears, sex, and others, very much like the ones used most
recently in the seminars. I can't tell from Searcy's book when he
started using these forms, but thought maybe you would know when Joe and
Charlie started.
Thanks,

_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2902. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Changing "those" to "these" in
12th step wording
From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2005 6:38:00 PM

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What about ". . . As *A* result . . . . " versus ". . . As *THE* result . .
. "
?

And what surprised me in my younger years, when I began visiting
(specifically the Akron-Cleveland area) groups outside of where I got sober
(North Carolina), they still use the version, which was immediately
noticeable
to me as using the phrase "spiritual experience" instead of "spiritual
awakening" . . . And many still do today.

Jon Markle
Raleigh
9/9/82

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++++Message 2903. . . . . . . . . . . . "Educational variety" cannot be
found in William James
From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/4/2005 5:45:00 AM

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In a message dated 12/4/2005 9:40:44 AM Eastern Standard Time,
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com writes:

The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences were of the
type that the psychologist William James called the "educational
variety."

+++++++++++++++++++

However, nobody has been able to find the phrase "educational variety" in
any of
William James's writings. It is like the quote regarding contempt before
investigation attributed to Herbert Spencer, which no one has ever found in
any
of HIS writings.

Edgar C, Sarasota,FL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2904. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tom P. and Gresham''s Law
article
From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/4/2005 4:25:00 PM

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There seem to be two versions, one written in July 1976 by Tom P.
(Sr.?), the other in 1993 by Tom P., Jr. although I admit I haven't
studied the second version in depth, I got the impression that Tom
P. Jr. had added several paragraphs to the original. Both can be
found by a Google search.

Jim S.

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++++Message 2905. . . . . . . . . . . . Today''s history: Ozzie''s death
From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2005 12:26:00 AM

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Hi Gary

Sadly this is true. Ozzie passed away peacefully at 12:29 AM Nov 27th. He
was with his wife and family. The wake and funeral were attended by hundreds
of people. He is buried at the same cemetary as Bill Wilson. It was his wish
that the Wilson House go on as always and , I'm sure it will. This Obituarie
was run with out the familys permission on the front page of the Rutland
Herald.

Thanks
Rick

----- Original Message -----

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2906. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Paul O.
From: IIdog . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2005 2:34:00 PM

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I am looking for information on Dr. Paul Oehlinger. His story is in the
third
and fourth edition of the Big Book. The same story with different titles.
I appreciate any information on this.
Thank you,
Jane B.

IIdog@prodigy.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2907. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Lawsuit in Germany: Posting 5
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2005 5:08:00 PM

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Events leading up to the past German lawsuit were premised on claims
that the 1996 and 1983 German translations of the Big Book excluded
words denoting “spiritual” and instead used words meaning
“psychological” or “intellectual.”

The website that functions in support of the critics of the
translations contains the following (copied and pasted):

“A scientific research revaled differences between BBSG and German GSO
versions of the big book.

BBSG translated the multilith manuscript, because we were sure there
were no restrictions by any copyright protection on it. German GSO
sold a translation of 1983 based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this
had many mistakes. For example: The 11 chapters contain the word
"spiritual" 108 times in the multilith manuscript and 106 times in the
3rd Edition. The translation of 1983 contains the word "spiritual"
only eight times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it was mostly
replaced by "seelisch -- psychological" and/or by "geistig --
intellectual". This, among other faults, diluted the spiritual
foundations of our recovery program and resulted in an extremly high
relapse rate of more than 95% among German AA members. We felt obliged
to take action. Our BBSG translation of has the correct German word
"spirituell". There is more background information available at […]”

Discussion:

The 95% relapse rate comment is absurd and unsubstantiated. Linking a
Big Book translation to the relapse rate fable is even more absurd.

The German word “giestig” is defined to only mean “intellectual.” It
has several other meanings (“spiritual” being one of them). Likewise,
the word “seelisch” is defined to only mean “psychological.” It too
has several other meanings (one of which is also “spiritual”).

It is claimed that the word “spirituell” should be used to denote the
word “spiritual.”

It is further claimed that the deficient translations were “Caused by
anti-spiritual resentments” on the part of the translators.

The latter claim is “shoot from the lip” slander that permeates the
whole sorry episode. The translation critics presume they are able to
divine the underlying intentions of others and typically paint those
intentions in vulgar, vitriolic and conspiratorial terms. It is far
more revealing of the negativity embedded in the critics way of
thinking than it is in the translators way of acting.

Two Word document are available that purport to define the 1996 and
1983 German translation shortcomings. Based on the 1996 Word document,
the assertion that the word “spirituality” has been removed from the
German Big Book translations is disingenuous and deceptive. I also
don't get a sense that many (if any) of the translation critics have
actually examined what they are criticizing.

Word usage counts and contexts in the 1996 German Translation are
shown below (German words are not formatted with punctuation marks):

The word “God” (“Gott”) appears 136 times in the 3rd edition English
Big Book basic text as well as the 1983 and 1996 German translations.
The recent assertion of “God” being removed from the German
translations is without foundation.

The most frequent usage of the German word “geist” is to correctly
denote “mind” or “mental” where those words actually appear in the
English Basic Text. The German words “geistlichen” or geistiges” are
used to denote “spiritual” 2 times.

“Geistige” is also correctly used to denote “spirit” in the sense of
“Spirit of the Universe” or a “forgiving spirit”. The combined words
“geistig-seelische” and “seelisch-geistigen” are used to mean
“spiritual.” These are all valid usages of “geist” (and derivatives)
in proper context.

"Geist" (in derivatives denoting Clergy) occurs 8 times. Examples:
church folk (geistlichkeit), ministers (geistlichkeit)clergyman
(geistlichen), etc. It seems odd for the translation critics to claim
that “geist” just means “intellectual” when the word is also used as
a
root to denote people who do God’s work.

"Geist" (denoting mental) occurs 51 times. Examples: mental
(geistiger), mind (geist), mentally (geistig), sane (geistiges),
sanity (geistige), lunacy (geisteszustand), etc.

"Geist" (denoting spirit) occurs 12 times. Examples: spirit [of other
days] (geist), Spirit of the Universe (Geist des Universums), Spirit
of Nature (Naturgeist), the Realm of Spirit (die geistige Sphare), a
helpful and forgiving spirit (im Geiste der Hilfbereitschaft), His
Spirit into us (Sein Geist in uns hineinstromt), etc. In the Roman
Catholic Trinity, God as the "Holy Ghost" or "Holy Spirit" in Germans
would be "Heilige Geist."

Geist (denoting spiritual) occurs 2 times. Examples: spiritual life
(geistiges Leben), spiritual adviser (geistlichen Berater).

Geistig-seelische or seelisch-geistigen (denoting spiritual)occurs 8
times (2 of which just denote “spiritual”). Examples: spiritual
matters (geistig-seelichen Dingen), spiritual lines (geistig-seelichen
Grundsatze, spiritual progress (seelisch-geistigen Bereich), spiritual
activities (seelisch-geistigen Betatigungen), spiritual convictions
(geistig-seelische Uberzeugungen), Realm of the Spirit
(geistig-seelischen Dingen.

The word “seelische” which derives from the German word “seele”
(“soul”) is used 83 times. An acceptable usage of the word is as an
adjective to define matters of the “soul” or of the “spirit” and not
just exclusively in the translation critics context of
“psychological.” The word can be used in the context of
“emotional” or
“mental” or “psychological” or “spiritual.” These are all valid
usages
and contexts.

Seelische (denoting spiritual). Examples: spiritual experience
(seelische, Innerlische Erfahrungen), spiritual experience (seelische
Erfahrung), spiritual tools (seelische Rustzeug), spiritual help
(seelische Hilfe), spiritual life (seelische Leben), spiritual remedy
(seelisches Heilmittel), spiritual approach (seelisce Dingen),
spiritual basis (seelischer Grundlage), spiritual growth (seelischen
Wachstum), spiritually-mined persons (seelische-orientierte Menschen),
spiritual liberation or spiritual release (seelische Befreiung),
spiritually sick (seelisch krank), spiritual malady (seelische
Krankheit), spiritual feature (seelischen Aspekt), spiritual program
(seelische Programm), etc.

An examination, similar to above, for the 1983 Word document is in the
works and will be a subject of a future posting.

According to the translation critics, the translation for “spiritual”
should have been “spirituell.” The translators are accused of using
the words they did on the basis that it was “caused by anti-spiritual
resentments.” The translators used the word “spirituell 7 times.

Spirituelle (denoting spiritual). Examples: spiritual tools
(spirituelle Handwerkszeug), spiritual answer (spirituelle Losung),
spiritual principles (spirituelle Grundsatze), spiritual (spirituellen
- 2 instances) spiritual approach (spirituellen Weg), spiritual
progress (spirituellen Fortschritts).

Other German words used (denoting spiritual or spirit) occur 20 times.
Examples: other spiritual expressions (andere religiose Ausdruke),
spiritual terms (religiose Formulierungen), spiritual things
(religioser Dinge), spiritual beliefs (innere Uberzeugungen), spirits
(seelen), spiritual progress (innerlicher Fortschritt), spiritual
perfection (innerliche Vomlkommenheit), Sunlight of the Spirit (dem
Licht der Erkenntnis), spirituality (Gottvertrauen), spiritual Beliefs
(bestimmte Glaubensvorstellung), Spirit of the Universe (Hoheren
Macht), spiritual condition (innerlisch gesund), etc.

The following is the wording of Step 12 on the German websites of AA
and Al-Anon Family Groups for "spiritual awakening":

AA: Nachdem wir durch diese Schritte ein [spirituelles Erwachen]
erlebt hatten, versuchten wir, diese Botschaft an Alkoholiker
weiterzugeben und unser tägliches Leben nach diesen Grundsätzen
auszurichten.

Al-Anon: Nachdem wir durch diese Schritte ein [inneres Erwachen]
erlebt hatten, versuchten wir, diese Botschaft an andere weiterzugeben
und uns in allen unseren Angelegenheiten nach diesen Grundsätzen zu
richten.

The following is the wording of Tradition 12 on the German websites of
AA and Al-Anon Family Groups for "spiritual foundation":

AA: Anonymität ist die [spirituelle Grundlage] aller unserer
Traditionen, die uns immer daran erinnern soll, Prinzipien über
Personen zu stellen.

Al-Anon: Anonymität ist die [geistige Grundlage] aller unserer
Traditionen, die uns immer daran erinnern soll, unsere Prinzipien
allem Persönlichen voranzustellen.

Is Al-Anon's different wording for Step 12 and Tradition 12 "caused by
anti-spiritual resentments"? Or is there perhaps more than one way for
two sets of decent people to say the same thing but in different ways?

Translations are not simple. A Google search revealed that both
“geistig” and “seelische” are acceptable translations of the word
“spiritual.” It is difficult to determine what the preferred
translation is since the German concepts of “soul” and
“spiritual” are
much broader than the common context in the US.

Several on-line German-to-English dictionaries were checked. In most
instances the translation critic’s preferred word of “spirituell” was
not found or not recognized. There are some risks, however, in simply
resorting to a dictionary. The following was extracted from
translator’s comment for some academic papers (found through a Google
search) that discuss the usage of "geist" and “seelische” in both a
psychological and spiritual context:

Hegel and Freud on Psychic Reality - JON MILLS, Psy.D., Ph.D. (2000)

Journal of the Society for Existential Analysis, 12(1), 159-183

Comparisons with Psychoanalysis

Hegel's treatment of the unconscious processes of theoretical spirit
brings us in closer dialogue with Freud. Like Hegel, Freud was
concerned about offering an integrative and coherent theory of Geist;
what Hegel called subjective spirit, Freud called soul (Seele). Led
astray by inaccurate translations of the German term Seele rendered as
"mental apparatus," "mental organization" or "mind" in English,
Freud's humanistic commitments are often eclipsed by a cold and
detached scientific lexicon thus misrepresenting his original text.

Like Hegel in his attempt to capture all the complex psychological
processes of spirit, Freud spoke of the "structure of the soul" (die
Struktur des Seele) and "the organization of the soul" (die seelische
Organisation). For example, in New Introductory Lectures on
Psycho-Analysis, Freud specifically refers to the three psychic
agencies and their structural relations as "the three provinces of the
apparatus of the soul" (die drei Provinzen des seelischen Apparatus),
not "the three provinces of the mental apparatus" (SE, 22, p. 72). In
fact, Freud saw psychoanalysis as "the science of the life of the
soul" (die Wissenschaft vom Seelenleben) (SE, 22, p. 6) and regarded
the soul as synonymous with the Greek word psyche-not merely mind or
intellect which he situated with the ego, but the unification of the
temporal processes of passion or desire (eros), morality (ethos) and
reason or mind (nous).

(NY Times book review)Feb 6, 1983

“Freud Is Better in German” by Frank Kermode

[…]
But the substance of Dr. Bettelheim's complaint is suggested by his
book's title. Freud used the word ‘Seele’ very freely: ‘A dream is the
result of the activity of our own soul”; “the structure of the soul”;
“the life of the soul.” Strachey avoided the word, always translating
it as “mind” and “Seelische” as “mental.” He must have known
that this
was inaccurate; his problem, as usual, was the different semantic
range of the words “Seele” and “soul.”

It would be disastrous to say in English “psychoanalysis is a part of
psychology which is dedicated to the science of the soul”; Strachey
said “part of the mental science of psychology,” which is bad but
lacks the religious, or religiose, overtones of the more literal
version. Perhaps he should have used “psyche” and “psychic,” but
there
are obvious dangers in those words too. Dr. Bettelheim's observations
are here more justifiable, but perhaps he should address his
complaints to Babel rather than to Strachey; some of these problems
are inherent in the diversity of languages and cultures.

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++++Message 2908. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: A Question about the
Principles Behind each of the Steps of A.A.
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2005 12:54:00 PM

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There is a ritual in AA that I find endearing and (absolutely no
pejorative intended) don't know what to call other than "AA theater."

Verbal and written assertions circulate in AA which are solely the
product of the imagination of individual members but are viewed as
fundamental truths. These imaginative individual members often seem to
have the uncanny aptitude of being able to read things in the Big
Book, 12&12, Steps, Traditions and Concepts that just aren't written
there.

In a "history forum" a measure of care should be exercised to try to
distinguish among "history," "editorials" and "fiction." "

History" is supposed to be an accurate recording of the past and
present. "Editorials" are supposed to be the viewpoints of individuals
(this posting is an editorial). "Fiction" is supposed to be a body of
writings originating from the creative imagination of the authors.

What is cited as the "Principles Behind each of the Steps of AA" fall
into the categories of "editorial" and/or "fiction" not "history."

Each Step, Tradition and Concept is, of itself, a "principle" (i.e. a
rule of personal conduct). When you see wall charts, wallet cards,
website postings, or whatever, that convey the notion of a single-word
descriptor as a so-called "principle" behind each Step, Tradition or
Concept, it is far more a contemporary editorial and fictional
invention of individual AA members rather than an historic cause and
effect association.

There have been many prior postings on this notion of single-word
"principles" behind each Step. The material below is a resubmission of
a posting sent in as recently as July of this year (in response to the
same original posting that raised the subject).

From: "Arthur S"
Date: Wed Jul 6 2005 12:43 am

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] A Question about the Principles Behind
each of the Steps of AA

Hi Richard

First an appeal to AAHL members (especially newer members) - prior to
posting a question, please first try using the search function in the
message archive in yahoogroups on-line.

The notion of a single word descriptor as a "principle" behind each
Step is bogus. Please see message 1802 in the AAHL archives.

AAHL members previously posted a question listing a set of single word
"principles" associated with each Step. Another member then sent in a
list containing a set of single word "gifts" that derived from working
each Step. Each of these lists came from cards purchased from vendors
selling drunk junk at AA events. My comments on the so-called
"principles" and "gifts are below.

Cheers
Arthur

From: "Arthur S"
Date: Tue May 11, 2004 12:25 pm

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Principles Meditation Card

Hi

In comparing the so-called "principles" and "gifts" cards, it seems
fairly self-evident that both represent little more than the creative
exercises of individual imagination. Also, the imagination can go in
many well-intended, but far different, directions. It is easy to go
from "keep it simple" into a realm that can be just a bit too
simplistic.

It's also interesting to note that the "principles" card was purchased
from a "vendor" yet is being associated with an "AA function." I'd
sure like to see the members who put together so-called "AA functions"
eliminate the participation of those who sell tapes, trinkets and
t-shirts. Words printed on a card, and sold by a vendor, are not
endowed with any special or extra insight, authority, validity,
accuracy or historical relevance. The so-called "principles" and
"gifts" cards, do little more than denote the semantic preferences of
the those who did the word association.

[Note on the above: likewise for postings on web sites - 12/10/05]

I've seen a number of variations on this theme (in the form of cards,
wall charts, etc.) trying to reduce the Steps to single words and
asserting that the word represents the "principle" embodied in the
Step. I just don't see how this rises to the level of an adequate
description.

Much can be gained, and gleaned, from the Steps (and Traditions and
Concepts) both in understanding and results, when each of them is
viewed as a whole instructive sentence. Each whole instructive
sentence can then be viewed as a "principle" (i.e. a rule of personal
conduct) that we try to practice in all our affairs as a means of
developing a spiritual condition that offers a daily reprieve from
alcohol. The resultant God-given gift is something called "sobriety"
(freedom from alcohol).

I'm always amazed at the energy that goes into reading things into
AA's spiritual principles with perhaps far too much emphasis on
cleverness than clarity. It is often done at the expense of missing
what is written there in rather plain language. One of our principal
principles (rule #62) is to try to carry a message - not creatively
modify it.

Cheers
Arthur

----- Original Message -----

From: _______
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:19 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] A Question about the Principles Behind each
of the Steps of A.A.

Dear AA History Lovers, first of all thanks so much for being here.
This yahoo group has really opened my eyes to the history of A.A. I
would like to know where the Principles came from? When where they
first writen,and by whom? I have googled it and can't seem to find
information on the way the principles came about. For example... The
principle behind step one is Honesty, for step two its Faith, and so
on. Thanks for any information that can be given.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diazeztone
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 8:41 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: A Question about the Principles Behind
each of the Steps of A.A.

http://www.aabibliography.com/aaprinciples.html

Principles of the 12 Steps: two list here see other list at bottom
of page
STEP: (The steps are printed on pages 59 & 60 of the Big Book.)

1. Surrender. (Capitulation to hopelessness.)

2. Hope. (Step 2 is the mirror image or opposite of step 1. In step 1
we admit that alcohol is our higher power, and that our lives are
unmanageable. In step 2, we find a different Higher Power who we hope
will bring about a return to sanity in management of our lives.)

3. Commitment. (The key word in step 3 is decision.)

4. Honesty. (An inventory of self.)

5. Truth. (Candid confession to God and another human being.)

6. Willingness. (Choosing to abandon defects of character.)

7. Humility. (Standing naked before God, with nothing to hide, and
asking that our flaws-in His eyes-be removed.)

8. Reflection. (Who have we harmed? Are we ready to amend?)

9. Amendment. (Making direct amends/restitution/correction, etc..)

10. Vigilance. (Exercising self-discovery, honesty, abandonment,
humility, reflection and amendment on a momentary, daily, and
periodic basis.)

11. Attunement. (Becoming as one with our Father.)

12. Service. (Awakening into sober usefulness.)

Step 1: Honesty
After many years of denial, recovery can begin when with one simple
admission of
being powerless over alcohol -- for alcoholics and their friends and
family.

Step 2: Faith
It seems to be a spiritual truth, that before a higher power can
begin to operate, you
must first believe that it can.

Step 3: Surrender
A lifetime of self-will run riot can come to a screeching halt, and
change forever, by
making a simple decision to turn it all over to a higher power.

Step 4: Soul Searching
There is a saying in the 12-step programs that recovery is a process,
not an event.
The same can be said for this step -- more will surely be revealed.

Step 5: Integrity
Probably the most difficult of all the steps to face, Step 5 is also
the one that provides
the greatest opportunity for growth.

Step 6: Acceptance
The key to Step 6 is acceptance -- accepting character defects
exactly as they are
and becoming entirely willing to let them go.

Step 7: Humility
The spiritual focus of Step 7 is humility, asking a higher power to
do something that
cannot be done by self-will or mere determination.

Step 8: Willingness
Making a list of those harmed before coming into recovery may sound
simple. Becoming
willing to actually make those amends is the difficult part.

Step 9: Forgiveness
Making amends may seem like a bitter pill to swallow, but for those
serious about
recovery it can be great medicine for the spirit and soul.

Step 10: Maintenance
Nobody likes to admit to being wrong. But it is absolutely necessary
to maintain
spiritual progress in recovery.

Step 11: Making Contact
The purpose of Step 11 is to discover the plan God as you understand
Him has for your
life.

Step 12: Service
For those in recovery programs, practicing Step 12 is simply "how it
works."

The AA Principles and Virtues
(from barefoots world website)

Honesty

Step 1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol - that our
lives had become unmanageable.

Hope

Step 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could
restore us to sanity.

Faith

Step 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the
care of God as we understood him.

Courage

Step 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Integrity

Step 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the
exact nature of our wrongs.

Willingness

Step 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of
character.

Humility

Step 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Brotherly Love

Step 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing
to make amends to them all.

Justice

Step 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except
when to do so would injure them or others.

Perserverance

Step 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong
promptly admitted it.

Spirituality

Step 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our
conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for
knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out.

Service

Step 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these
steps, we tried to carry this message to others, especially
alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

I went out on the web in search of possible further historical
documentation of their origins and found two more listings different
from the above ...

Principles of the 12 Steps

1. Surrender. (Capitulation to hopelessness.)

2. Hope. (Step 2 is the mirror image or opposite of step 1. In step 1
we admit that alcohol is our higher power, and that our lives are
unmanageable. In step 2, we find a different Higher Power who we hope
will bring about a return to sanity in management of our lives.)

3. Commitment. (The key word in step 3 is decision.)

4. Honesty. (An inventory of self.)

5. Truth. (Candid confession to God and another human being.)

6. Willingness. (Choosing to abandon defects of character.)

7. Humility. (Standing naked before God, with nothing to hide, and
asking that our flaws - in His eyes - be removed.)

8. Reflection. (Who have we harmed? Are we ready to amend?)

9. Amendment. (Making direct amends/restitution/correction, etc..)

10. Vigilance. (Exercising self-discovery, honesty, abandonment,
humility, reflection and amendment on a momentary, daily, and
periodic basis.)

11. Attunement. (Becoming as one with our Higher Power.)

12. Service. (Awakening into sober usefulness.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

And another list--

Step 1: Honesty -- After many years of denial, recovery can begin
when with one simple admission of being powerless over alcohol -- for
alcoholics and their friends and family.

Step 2: Faith -- It seems to be a spiritual truth, that before a
higher power can begin to operate, you must first believe that it
can.

Step 3: Surrender -- A lifetime of self-will run riot can come to a
screeching halt, and change forever, by making a simple decision to
turn it all over to a higher power.

Step 4: Soul Searching -- There is a saying in the 12-step programs
that recovery is a process, not an event. The same can be said for
this step -- more will surely be revealed.

Step 5: Integrity -- Probably the most difficult of all the steps to
face, Step 5 is also the one that provides the greatest opportunity
for growth.

Step 6: Acceptance -- The key to Step 6 is acceptance -- accepting
character defects exactly as they are and becoming entirely willing
to let them go.

Step 7: Humility -- The spiritual focus of Step 7 is humility, asking
a higher power to do something that cannot be done by self-will or
mere determination.

Step 8: Willingness -- Making a list of those harmed before coming
into recovery may sound simple. Becoming willing to actually make
those amends is the difficult part.

Step 9: Forgiveness -- Making amends may seem like a bitter pill to
swallow, but for those serious about recovery it can be great
medicine for the spirit and soul.

Step 10: Maintenance -- Nobody likes to admit to being wrong. But it
is absolutely necessary to maintain spiritual progress in recovery.

Step 11: Making Contact -- The purpose of Step 11 is to discover the
plan God as you understand Him has for your life.

Step 12: Service -- For those in recovery programs, practicing Step
12 is simply "How It Works."

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <dikilee@y...> wrote:
>
> The Forword to the 12 & 12 states:
> "A.A.'s Twelve Steps are a group of principles, spiritual in
their
> nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the
obsession
> to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully
whole".
>
> I believe the Traditions and Concepts also are principles in and of
> themselves. As far as I can tell the assignment of a "principle"
to
> each step has been done by individuals in the fellowship and there
are
> a number of different lists of principles.
>
> In the spirit of recovery, Dick.
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricky151530"
> <r_myers9848@s...> wrote:
> >
> > Dear AA History Lovers, first of all thanks so much for being
here.
> > This yahoo group has really opened my eyes to the history of A.A.
I
> > would like to know where the Principles came from? When where
they
> > first writen,and by whom? I have googled it and can't seem to
find
> > information on the way the principles came about. For example...
The
> > principle behind step one is Honesty, for step two its Faith, and
so
> > on.
> > Thanks for any information that can be given.
> > Richard
>

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>

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2909. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Educational variety" cannot be
found in William James
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2005 10:07:00 PM

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Edgar wrote

However, nobody has been able to find the phrase "educational variety" in
any
of William James's writings.
___________________________

In Varieties of Reigious Experience, Lecture IX, Conversion, James make
clear the two types of conversion.

Jim
___________________________

A note by the moderator:

In the chapter to which Jim B. refers, we have the following section for
example
(p. 228 in the Modern Library version):

James says here that we find two different ways of being converted
"exemplified
in the history of conversion, giving us two types, which Starbuck calls the
volitional type and the type by self-surrender respectively. In the
volitional
type the regenerative change is usually gradual, and consists in the
building
up, piece by piece, of a new set of moral and spiritual habits. But there
are
always critical points here at which the movement forward seems much more
rapid
.... Our EDUCATION in any practical accomplishment proceeds ... by jerks and
starts just as the growth of our physical bodies does."

The phrase "educational variety" does not appear per se, but James does give
the
analogy with "education" in practical accomplishments, like learning to play
a
certain sport, where over a period of time we get better and better at
playing
tennis, or basketball, or what have you, until we eventually find ourselves
quite good at the sport, and able to react automatically and intuitively to
the
motion of the tennis ball or basketball.

"If he keeps on engaging in the sport, there may come a day when all at once
the
game plays itself through him .... In the same way a musician may suddenly
reach
a point at which ... in some moment of inspiration he becomes the instrument
through which music flows."

Referring to spiritual awakening as an "educational experience" does not
imply
(in James's language) that we sit down and memorize a large number of rules
and
data (like "learning the multiplication table"). It refers to a slow process
of
internalizing a new set of responses to life, by practicing and practicing
and
practicing this new way of life every day, until we finally automatically
and
"intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us before"
(Big
Book p. 84).

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2910. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Educational variety" cannot be
found in William James
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 3:50:00 AM

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It seems to border on the impossible to believe that anyone, a few
days into delirium, could actually read VRE. It seems more likely that
the 2 pages in the book which deal with alcoholism, describing
Hadley's recovery through spiritual experience at Jerry McAuley's
Water Street Mission was the focus. Hadley's book and his descriptions
of bright light and spiritual experience recovery in the late 1800's
are remarkably similar to what Bill describes. Add to this that
Hadley's son (or cousin) was superintendent of Calvary Mission when
Ebby was living there and visited Bill in 1934 and there is a direct
link. The several books by and about McAuley's Water Street Mission
are really worth a close look. The one published in 1907 is a good
place to start as it is a conglomerate of the earlier texts. You will
have to hunt a bit on used book sites but they were prolific and
aquirable. Well worth the effort.

-merton

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, edgarc@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 12/4/2005 9:40:44 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
> The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences were of the
> type that the psychologist William James called the "educational
> variety."
>
> +++++++++++++++++++
>
> However, nobody has been able to find the phrase "educational
variety" in any of William James's writings. It is like the quote
regarding contempt before investigation attributed to Herbert Spencer,
which no one has ever found in any of HIS writings.
>
> Edgar C, Sarasota,FL
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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++++Message 2911. . . . . . . . . . . . Length of sobriety
From: Henry . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 11:52:00 AM

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Hello There

Could anyone tell me what is the longest recorded length of sobriety,
in the fellowship.

Henry

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++++Message 2912. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Changing "those" to "these" in
12th step wording
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 11:21:00 AM

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Hi Jon

In December 1938, the first version of the 12 Steps were written at
182 Clinton St. Bill W claimed that it took him only about 30 minutes
to do it. Bill recalled his experience, in the book “AA Comes of Age”
and in a July 1953 Grapevine article titled “A Fragment of History:
Origin of the Twelve Steps.” The Grapevine article is preserved in the
book “The Language of the Heart” (pg 200).

Bill’s original draft of the 12 Steps (and most of the yellow sheet
draft pages of the basic text) were lost (thrown away I believe) in
the March 1940 move of the Alcoholic Foundation office from 17 William
St Newark, NJ to 30 Vesey St in NYC.

An approximate reconstruction of the initial December 1938 draft of
the 12 Steps is in the book “Pass It On” (pgs 198-199) and is shown
below. Words that were eventually changed are [in brackets]:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had
become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that [God] * could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our [wills] and our lives over to the care
[and direction] of God. **

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact
nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely [willing that] God remove all these defects of
character.

7. Humbly [on our knees] asked Him to remove [these] shortcomings [–
holding back nothing].

8 Made a [complete] list of all persons we had harmed and became
willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to
do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong
promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our [contact with
God], ** praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power
to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual [experience] *** as the result of [this
course of action], we tried to carry this message to [others,
especially alcoholics,] and to practice these principles in all our
affairs.

Notes:

* “Power greater than ourselves” and
** “as we understood Him” were added later in early 1939.
*** “experience” changed to “awakening” in the 2nd printing of 1st
edition.

Again, please remember that the above is an estimate. The original
draft was lost. I have seen transcriptions having "as a result"
instead of "as the result" but I think these were transcription errors
(which I make quite frequently with "a result" and "the result" in
Step 12).

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon Markle
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:39 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Changing "those" to "these" in 12th
step wording

What about ". . . As *A* result . . . . " versus ". . . As *THE*
result . . . " ?

And what surprised me in my younger years, when I began visiting
(specifically the Akron-Cleveland area) groups outside of where I got
sober (North Carolina), they still use the version, which was
immediately noticeable to me as using the phrase "spiritual
experience" instead of "spiritual awakening" . . . And many still do
today.

Jon Markle
Raleigh
9/9/82

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++++Message 2913. . . . . . . . . . . . Groups and/vs "12 step rooms"
From: marathonmanric . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 2:52:00 PM

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Hello history lovers from all over the world,

I have a query which I'd like to get the experience of the members of
this online group concerning.

Here in South Florida and particularly District 10 of Area 15 which
encompasses the county of Miami-Dade, we have seven 12-step rooms which are
normally open from 7 am and close arond 10 or 11:00pm. The groups of these
12-step rooms may have anywhere from 35 to 50 moeetings a week, but they are
one
group and have one GSO registration number and one GSR to carry the voice of
that Group to the District and then the Area levels of service.

These 12-step rooms are NOT club houses in that there is one and only
one group which meets in that room, usually having an earlybird meeting at 7
am,
then possibly a mid morning meeting, a noon meeting, then an after work
meeting
around 5:30pm followed by an 8:30 pm meeting and maybe a late owl meeting
arond
10:30 or 11 pm, especially on weekends.

Again, unlike a club house, these rooms are one group and strictly AA
in their content and purpose.

I've heard, but have not confirmed, that there is a small area in Texas that
has
the same concept of 12-step rooms as we do.

My personal concern revolves arond the representation that the single
GSR from that group receives when carrying the group conscience to other
levels
of service.

It has been argued, in certain forums, that the numerous meetings of
this one group (remember, there are 7 groups in our area which
identify themselves as such) could rename each of their meetings to
become a group in itself and thus multiply the district and area
representation which the existing groups receives, but then we look at
ourselves
and the honesty thing kicks in.

Are there any other districts or areas which see a 12-step room/group
in their vicinity and if so, how do you recognize the perceived lack of
representation from the area that goes to the General Service
Conference in important matters concerning AA.

I'd really like to hear your experiences, and so gain your stregnth and
hope. I
do all this, For the Love of Service,

Ric Babcock

I fell in Love with AA, so I want to learn all that I can about Her.

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++++Message 2914. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: author of "Cup of Tea" or
"Gresham''s Law"
From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 4:11:00 PM

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Dear Trysh:

I was on the scene when that article was published in 24 Magazine.
The magazine was a short-lived periodical put out by "East Ridge,"
aka The Church of the Way, aka The Queen's Work. The author was
Thomas R. Powers (still living) working with ideas supplied by his
late father, Thomas E. Powers, the founder of East Ridge. I do not
think ER was consciously part of an "Orthodox Movement"; I never
heard that term until you used in in this email, but it very much
favored a more rigorous application of AA principles than was ever
the custom in the New York area, where, if I may attempt a
generalization about it, always emphasized "suggested" when referring
to the Steps, and relied on Bill W's test of membership; "You can
always smell when someone is not a real AA" rather than on a rigorous
doctrinal test. The article was, in its first printing in 24 Mag, an
original article, not a copy. 24 Magazine lasted only a few issues.

Tom White

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++++Message 2915. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Fourth Step - Joe and
Charlie''s matrix
From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2005 3:58:00 PM

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I hooked up with Joe McQ. in December 1983 and the Fourth Step Work Sheets
were basically then what they are today. I still have the first set Joe gave
me then.

In God's love and service,

Cliff Bishop
(214) 350-1190
FAX - (214) 350-7571
CBBB164@aol.com
www.ppgaadallas.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2916. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s House
From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2005 11:19:00 PM

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Ed,

The last time I was there it was an outpatient treatment center and the
inside of the house is remodeled to look the part.

The outside of the house looks like it fits right into the neighborhood
except for the large sign that reads "Birthplace of Dr Bob"

I hope this helps,

Doug
www.aahistory.com

Ed Witte wrote:

> Does anyone live in and maintain Dr Bob's birth place in Vermont, &
> if
> so, is it open to the public?
>
> Ed from Evansville, IN

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2917. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Bob''s House
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2005 8:55:00 PM

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From Tom H. and Jim B.

At 08:41 12/1/2005 , Ed Witte wrote:

"Does anyone live in and maintain Dr Bob's birth place in Vermont, & if so,
is
it open to the public?"

Ed from Evansville, IN
____________________________

I had occasion to pass through St. Johnsbury a number of times in the early
'90s
and visited the house several times. It was being used as offices by a
number
of counselors. There is a small sign out front identigying it as Dr. Bob's
birthplace and childhood home. I attended a meeting there but a "tour" was
not
offered.

I note in the meeting schedule for District #3 in Vermont that daily
meetings continue to be held there. <http://www.aavt.org/aamtg3.htm> Perhaps
someone manning their hot line can provide additional information:
1-877-334-1213

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

____________________________

From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
Date: Mon Dec 5, 2005 9:00pm
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Bob's House

"Does anyone live in and maintain Dr Bob's birth place in Vermont, & if so,
is
it open to the public?"

Last time I dropped by it was a referral center.

Jim

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++++Message 2918. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Bob''s Birthplace
From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2005 11:10:00 AM

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Dear Ed,

When I visited the Wilson house in 1996, I asked about Dr. Bob's birthplace.
The
person who bought the Wilson House had placed a bid on it. Another group
actually purchased it to make a recovery home out of it. I was told it was
not
open to the public.

Sincerely,

Art Boudreault

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++++Message 2919. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s Vt. childhhood home
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2005 10:29:00 AM

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Newspaper article on Dr. Bob's childhood home. It is now a rehab. See below
"The
St. Johnsbury, Vt., home of Dr. Robert Smith, cofounder of Alcoholics
Anonymous
(A.A.), is now being used as an addiction treatment center, the _Bar re
Montpelier Times-Argus_

(http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050523/NEWS/50523034
9/10\

03/NEWS02 [23])

Reported May 23.

The house in which Smith -- known to A.A. members worldwide as "Dr. Bob" --
grew up before moving to the Midwest and forming A.A. in 1935 is home to a
number of addiction programs, including the state's first mobile
methadone-treatment program.
Smith's former home was purchased by Northeastern Vermont Regional Hospital
in April 1991 and hosts regular A.A. meetings, as well as the Tri-County
Substance Abuse Services program. The grassroots recovery group DART, or
Drug
Abuse Resistance Team, also holds its meetings in the house."
Your's in Service,
Shakey Mike G.

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++++Message 2920. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s House
From: Jan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2005 11:05:00 PM

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In response to the question about the boyhood home of
AA co-founder Dr. Bob Smith, the house on Summer
Street in St. Johnsbury, Vermont is currently owned by
a local public health agency that offers outpatient
alcoholism treatment programs there.

The house is in a residential neighborhood just a few
blocks from one of St. J's business districts.

I don't have many details about the history of the
house, but it seems to have been a private residence
during much of the 20th century, and during the past
few decades of the century was a private insurance
office.

For the past few decades, various fundraising efforts
were undertaken by local AA members to buy the house
and preserve it, but they did not succeed. It was
ultimately purchased by the public health agency, and
used mainly for programs related to alcohol and drug
treatment, but there is no guarantee that it will be
preserved for historical purposes related to AA.

AA meetings are currently held in the main meeting
room of the house 7 days a week at 5:30 p.m.

Perhaps other members of this group closer to
Caledonia County can provide more detailed
information.

Jan S.
Burlington, Vermont
DOS 4-27-87

__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com

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++++Message 2921. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety
From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 5:11:00 PM

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24 hours!

> Hello There
>
> Could anyone tell me what is the longest recorded length of sobriety,
> in the fellowship.
>
> Henry

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++++Message 2922. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 5:07:00 PM

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If he is still alive I heard that Duke P. in Florida
holds that dubious distinction. James H. of MD came
into the Oxford Group very early on before the
founding of AA. He stayed with the OG and only
recently has been speaking at AA related events. As
his "sobriety" wasn't really in the fellowship intil
recently...

--- Henry <akira2202@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Hello There
>
> Could anyone tell me what is the longest recorded
> length of sobriety,
> in the fellowship.
>
> Henry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2923. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: big book manuscript
From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2005 8:55:00 PM

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There was an error in my post below. THe correct web site is:
www.ArchivesInternational.org/documents. Scroll down to: BERRY W'S
COLLECTION. THen Scroll down to: RUTH HOCKS RECOLLECTIONS. Sorry
for this error. Les C.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "secondles" <elsietwo@m...>
wrote:
>
> Some of the answer to your question can be found in a letter which
> Ruth Hock wrote to Bill (at his request) regarding her
recollections
> at the time the original manuscript was being written and
revised. In
> her letter she said (in part, page 6)" by the time the book was
> mimeographed mostly for distribution in an effort to raise money
to
> carry on and get the book published. There was constant
discussion
> about detail changes with seemingly little hope for unanimous
> agreement so it was finally decided to offer the book to Tom
Uzzell
> for final editing."
>
> Her letter indicates many discussions in and around the "office"
by
> various people. It seems apparent that any and all available
folks
> had an input in the editing process there in New york (plus
sending it
> to Dr Bob at various stages of those first drafts). NOTE: See
the
> full text of Ruth Hock's letter in a PDF copy at www.cybriety.org
>
> Les C
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "gbaa487" <gbaa487@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > how was it detemined who would get a copy of the big book
manuscript
> > for review??
> > thanks for all the great stuff,
> > george
> >
>

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++++Message 2924. . . . . . . . . . . . Why AA Left the Oxford Group
According To Bill W. and Its Implications for Us.
From: James . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2005 12:16:00 PM

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Hi I am Jim and I am an Alcoholic who is sober only by the Grace of
God and because of the good people in Alcoholics Anonymous. Because
of AA and my Higher Power I have not found it necessary to pick up a
drink since October 4th, 1987.

The split from the Oxford Group allowed AA to reach out to tens of thousands
of
alcoholics who might otherwise not have been receptive to the help they
needed
to receive in order to get sober. People like me who would have been turned
off
by an overtly religious program or those who were simply unable to detoxify
themselves without medical
intervention and the expertise of treatment professionals. In my own case,
being
a hard core agnostic and skeptic when I first came to AA I had to see
empirical
evidence that AA worked before I could believe. I was not able to take the
fact
that God existed or cared for me solely on faith. I had to witness the
Miracle
of AA taking place first hand. Then I became a believer.

In reading AA Comes of Age, I found a brief explanation of why it is
AA broke away from the Oxford Group this explanation seemed to ring
true to me because it made sense in light of my own experience in
trying to work with alcoholics. This explanation was of course
written by Bill W. in AA Comes of Age.

"The Oxford Groupers had clearly shown us what to do. And just as
importantly, we also learned from them what not to do as far as
alcoholics were concerned. We had found that certain of their ideas
and attitudes simply could not be sold to alcoholics. For example,
drinkers would not take pressure in any form, excepting from John
Barleycorn himself. They always had to be led, not pushed. They
would not stand for the rather aggressive evangelism of the Oxford
Groups. And they would not accept the principle of "team guidance"
for their own personal lives. It was too authoritarian for them. In
other respects, too, we found we had to make haste slowly, nothing
else. They clung to their other defects, letting go only little by
little. They simply did not want to get "too good too soon." The
Oxford Groups absolute concepts-absolute purity, absolute honesty,
absolute unselfishness, and absolute love-were frequently too much
for the drunks. These ideas had to be fed with teaspoons rather than
buckets." Page 74

Also further in the book AA Comes of Age I found this written.

"Just before the manuscript (The Big Book) was finished an event of
great significance for our future took place. At the time it looked
like just another battle over the book. The scene was Henry's office
in Newark, where most of the writing had been done. Present were
Fitz, Henry, our grand little secretary Ruth, and myself. We were
still arguing about the Twelve Steps. All this time I had refused to
budge on these steps. I would not change a word of the original
draft, in which, you will remember, I had consistently used the
word "God," and in one place the expression "on our knees" was used.
Praying to God on one's knees was a big affront to Henry. He argued,
he begged, he threatened. He quoted Jimmy to back him up. He was
positive we would scare off alcoholics by the thousands when they
read those Twelve Steps. Little by little both Fritz and Ruth came
to see the merit of his contentions. Though at first we would have
none of it, we finally began to talk about the possibility of
compromise. Who first suggested the actual compromise words I do not
know, but they are words well known through out the length and
breadth of AA today: In Step Two we decided to describe God as
a "Power greater than ourselves." In Steps Three and Eleven we
inserted the words "God as we understood Him." From Step Seven we
deleted the expression "down on our knees." And as a lead-in
sentence to all the steps we wrote these words: "Here are the steps
we took which are suggested as a Program of Recovery." AA's Twelve
Steps were to be suggestions only. Such were the final concessions
to those of little or no faith; this was the great contribution of
our atheists and agnostics. They had widened our gateway so that all
who suffer might pass through, regardless of their belief or lack of
belief." Pages 166-167

After reading AA Comes of Age, I think we owe a debt of gratitude to those
early
AA members who argued with Bill and insisted on having their input. And also
a
debt of gratitude to Bill, because Bill valued their opinions and feedback
and
was able to listen to reason.

For this I will always be Grateful!

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++++Message 2925. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O.
From: Rick Rogers . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 4:37:00 PM

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Dr. Paul and his wife Maxine were both active in Orange County California. I
had
the pleasure of hearing him speak many times. They also had a sober couples
retreat focused on the steps and traditions. He was a lovely man and very
available and sponsored a lot of men.

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++++Message 2926. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Films _ Part 3 of 6
From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 5:35:00 AM

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Movies on Alcoholism – Part 3 of 6

Reviews are by mostly non-professionals.

Assembled by billyk. (billyk3@yahoo.com)

with additions by Glenn C.& AAHistory Loverswith additions by Glenn C.&
AAHistory Lovers.

PLEASE SEND ALL CORRECTIONS OR COMMENTS DIRECTLY TO:
billyk <billyk3@yahoo.com> (billyk3 at yahoo.com)

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Titles beginning with C to G

Chalk Talk (Year unknown) by Father Joseph Martin

Never released to the public as far as I know. Originally was a movie
made
by Father Joe (alcoholic roman catholic priest) for use as a military
‘training
aid’. Such a powerful and informative piece of work, it found it’s way
into
many rehabs (at least here on the east coast.) father martin uses a
portable
chalk board (in a classroom) and explains just what alcohol is and what
it can
do (with a slant on chemistry). he takes you through all the
steps/changes
the brain goes through with the ingestion of booze from total
awareness/sobriety,
through relaxation, euphoria, depression, loss of motor skills, sleep
(passed out),
coma and finally to death. this movie was required when I was in rehab
back
in 1981. it is still occasionally shown on sunday afternoons at the
center where
‘alumni’ are welcome. if you can get your hands on this movie, do it.

this movie dealt with the alcoholic….father joe published a ‘companion
book’
about the effects of alcohol on the family entitled “no laughing
matter”.

review by billyk

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Clean and Sober 1988

Starring Michael Keaton

Michael Keaton plays Daryl Poynter, a hot shot real estate agent who
just happens to have a cocaine and drinking problem. One morning, he
wakes up to find a dead woman in his bed (someone he had been partying
with the night before) from a cocaine overdose. He also just happens to

receive a phone call from his employers telling him a huge sum of money
is
missing from one of his accounts. Panicking, Daryl decides to check
into a drug rehab to hide from the law, where he meets tough cookie
Morgan
Freeman. A recovering addict himself, he now works as a drug counselor,

and knows all the tricks Daryl tries to pull. Soon Daryl discovers he
just might be in the right place, afterall.

AND

After making his mark in several hit comedies including Beetlejuice,
Michael Keaton startled critics and audiences alike with his acclaimed
performance in this 1988 drama about one man's struggle against cocaine

addiction. Keaton's comedic energy is transformed here into the kind of

jittery intensity that's perfect for his role, suggesting a driven
personality who can maintain the appearance of self-control for only so

long before he crashes and burns. After a series of setbacks, Keaton's
character seeks refuge in a drug rehabilitation program and must
confront
the truth of his own addiction at the urging of a counselor (Morgan
Freeman) who's heard every lame excuse in the book from addicts
struggling
to quit. Kathy Baker leads a superb supporting cast as a recovering
alcoholic and battered wife whose flagging self-esteem is boosted by
Keaton's attention. Under the careful direction of Glenn Gordon Caron
(of
TV's Moonlighting fame), Keaton and Baker handle this delicate material

with consummate skill and grace, turning a potentially depressing story

into a moving portrait of people who must battle their inner demons
step by tentative step.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Come Back, Little Sheba 1952

Starring Shirley Booth, Burt Lancaster and Terry Moore

Based on William Inge's classic play, Come Back, Little Sheba is the
stirring
tale of a life-weary couple who rescue hope from the ruins of the past.

Shirley Booth stars in an Academy Award. - winning performance as Lola,

slovenly housewife to Doc Delaney (Burt Lancaster), a recovering
alcoholic.
The Delaneys' life is dull and unchanging, but takes a dramatic turn
when the
couple take in a charming boarder, Marie (Terry Moore).
Marie becomes the daughter the Delaneys never had. But when Marie takes

up with a boorish boyfriend, Doc descends into a jealous tailspin and
must
once again face the temptations of the bottle.

An unforgettable film shimmering with life-truths and dramatic
intensity.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Come Fill the Cup Year 1951

Starring James Cagney, Raymond Massey and Gig Young

News reporter (James Cagney) is sacked for drinking. Later gets
straight and
hires 3 former alcoholics on his staff while still living with his
friend Charley who
is an alcoholic. Helps a young man through D.T.'s. Good film on the
path of
alcoholism. Also with Raymond Massey, Jackie Gleason and Gig Young.
Film reflects A.A. precepts: permanent illness and the need to help
others in
order to stay sober.

and

Consider it to be one of Cagney's best. A very entertaining film, not
merely a
morality play, complete with a good plot, witty dialog, and humor. In
one scene,
the local crime boss (Sheldon Leonard) "forces" two alcoholics to drink
whiskey
at gunpoint. In an ironic twist, one of the drunks deciding whether or
not to quit
the bottle in the film is Gig Young, a real-life alcoholic who later
killed his wife and
himself. The difference between this film and most others is its'
contention that the
alcoholic must want to quit, and that this desire must come from one's
self. I nearly
said "anti-booze" film, but that is not true. In it, most of the
characters are able to
drink without becoming alcoholics, just like in real life. Alcohol
aside, this is a classic
crusading newspaperman versus gangster story of the 40s and 50s with
music and
humorous twists for spice.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Country Girl, The. 1954

Starring Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly

Story about an alcoholic entertainer's (Bing Crosby)
attempt to overcome his addiction to booze, make a professional
comeback,
and save his relationship with his long suffering wife (Grace Kelly).
This is
remade for television in 1982 with Faye Dunaway and Dick Van Dyke.

and
In the ranking of American playwrights Clifford Odets is usually placed
in the
second tier behind Eugene O'Neill, Arthur Miller, Lillian Hellman and
Tennessee Williams.

Grace Kelly won an Oscar as the faithful, strong-willed, bitter, dowdy
co-dependent wife of crooner Crosby who played a whimpering,
guilt-ridden
alcoholic. You have to see Grace Kelly in the bags-under-her-eyes
make-up
and spinster get-ups to believe it. She looks at least ten years older
than her
25 years with a sour puss of a face and an attitude to match. I think
she won
best actress (over Judy Garland in A Star Is Born) partly because her
appearance was so stunningly...different. (While I'm musing, I wonder
if this
was the film of hers that was banned in Monaco.) It would seem to be
the
height of creative casting to put her into such a role, yet she is
excellent,
wonderful to watch as always, her timing exquisite, her expression
indelible,
and her sense of character perfect. When she says to Holden, "You
kissed me
--don't let that give you any ideas," and then when we see her face
after he
leaves, loving it, we believe her both times.

Bing Crosby too is a sight to behold in what must have been his finest
104
minutes as a dramatic actor. He too played way out of character and yet
one
had the sense that he knew the character well. He was absolutely
pathetic
as the spineless one. (In real life Der Bingo was reportedly a stern
task
master at home--ask his kids.) Clearly director Seaton should be given
some of the credit for these fine performances. When your stars perform

so well, it's clear you've done something right.

What about the nature of alcoholism as depicted by Odets? Knowing what
we now know of the disease, how accurate was his delineation? I think
he
got it surprising right except for the implied cause. Crosby's
character goes
downhill after the accidental death of his son, which he blames on
himself.
Odets reflects the belief, only finally dispelled in recent decades,
that alcoholism
was indicative of a character flaw, as he has Crosby say he used his
son's
death as an excuse to drink. Today we know that alcoholism is a
disease, a
chemical imbalance. Yet Odets knew this practical truth (from the words
he
puts into the mouth of William Holden's character): an alcoholic stops
drinking
when he dies or when he gives it up himself. It is interesting to note
that as a
play The Country Girl appeared in 1950, the same year as William Inge's
Come
Back, Little Sheba, which also dealt with alcoholism. The intuitive
understanding
of alcoholism by these two great playwrights might be compared with the
present
scientific understanding.

Here's a curiosity: the duet song (best number in the movie; Crosby
sang it
with Jacqueline Fontaine) has the lyric "What you learn is you haven't
learned
a thing," which is what the alcoholic learns everyday.

And here's a familiar line, cribbed from somewhere in the long ago:
Fontaine
asks Crosby aren't you so-and-so, and he replies, "I used to be."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Days of Wine and Roses 1962

Starring Jack Lemmon, Lee Remick and Jack Klugman.

Days of Wine and Roses is one film not to watch if you are melancholic
by nature, as this tale of middle-class alcoholism rings very true.
Jack Lemmon and Lee Remick are the besotted couple who find that life
is
not always fun when viewed through rosé-colored glasses. He's the San
Francisco business executive who marries Remick and seduces her into a
cocktail culture that soon overpowers them both. It is not a pretty
picture when their life shatters around them, but this film is
extremely
compelling for their performances. It is matched only by Billy Wilder's

Lost Weekend and the more explicit Leaving Las Vegas. This was
nominated
for five Academy Awards and won for the title song by Henry Mancini and

Johnny Mercer. Filmed by Blake Edwards in 1962, it is based on a
Playhouse 90 television production from 1958, starring Cliff Robertson
and
Piper Laurie.

Jack Lemmon and Lee Remick are unforgettable -- and the title tune wins

an Oscar(R) in Blake Edwards' searing, bittersweet study of an
alcoholic couple on the rocks. Jack Klugman plays the AA.

and

This is a shocking film. From the moment we see Joe Clay in a crowded
bar
telling the barman to "Hit me again" and whispering "Magic time!"
before taking
a drink, we realise that out of all the people in that room he is the
man with a problem.

Sadly, as in all these cases Joe is the last person to see that he
needs help.
Doubly sadly he takes someone else with him. Marrying a bright,
non-drinking
Kirsten, Joe introduces her to the pleasures of social drinking.
Reluctant at first,
after her first few Brandy Alexanders have made her giggly, Kirsten
admits that
having a drink "made me feel good".

Unhappily their drinking doesn't stop there. Frustrated at work Joe
feels the only
way he can relax is to have "a coupla blasts" in the evening. Then he
is frustrated
because his wife is "stone cold sober". Wanting to demonstrate her love
for Joe,
Kirsten joins him in nightly sessions which find her drinking more and
regularly
getting drunk. As Kirsten develops a liking for liquor, bottles go
missing from the
drinks cupboard…

When Joe is demoted and sent out of town Kirsten finds the best way to
ease her
loneliness is to drink it away. Drunk in the daytime she sets fire to
their apartment
and almost kills herself and her young child.

Joe is fired and the next few years are a series of short-lived jobs
and increasing
addiction to drink. It certainly seems to be usual for Kirsten to be
fairly drunk by
the time Joe comes home.

At last Joe has his "moment of clarity" and tries to dry out. The
attempt fails when
he and Kirsten fall off the wagon and start getting very drunk again.
Their only hope
is to join Alcoholics Anonymous. Joe can see this, but now it is
Kirsten who refuses
to believe she has a problem.

Ultimately Joe has to make the nightmare decision to reject his wife
who is now
unable to face life without being drunk.

Watching this shattering film is like being trapped in a nightmare
where something
horrible is happening and yet you cannot look away. A sense of doom
hangs over
this tragic couple who are unaware of the fate they are walking into.
Thankfully the
performances and direction are more than capable of delivering on the
promise of
this uncompromising story.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Drunks 1997

Starring Richard Lewis and Faye Dunaway

Who knew comedian Richard Lewis could act? There is no plot to speak of

in this character study, which follows AA members who meet in a Times
Square basement to bare their souls. The performances, however, are
dazzling. A sparse plot follows Lewis through one dark, soul-searching
night in which he questions his life, his choices, and his sobriety.
The
direction is minimal, but Faye Dunaway, Spalding Gray, Parker Posey,
Amanda Plummer, Dianne Wiest, and Howard Rollins bring out the intense
emotions and dark, bitter humor of Gary Lennon's play, Blackout. We
could
have used more time with all of them, however, as the only fully
realized character is played by Lewis.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Fields W.C. (Jan. 29, 1880 - December 25, 1946) –

Numerous Movies - 1915 to 1942

Comment (sic.) by Glenn C

These are movie classics from the grand old period. They're still a lot
of fun
to watch today. It was the great era of Mae West, Edgar Bergen and
Charlie
McCarthy, and those other old classics.

Fields (who actually was an alcoholic) played an extremely cynical and
crotchety alcoholic in a lot of the movies in which he appeared.

He died of a stomach hemorrhage. A friend visited him in the hospital
shortly
before his death, and discovered, to his surprise, that Fields was
reading the
Bible. Since Fields had always been an atheist, he asked him what he
was
doing that for, and Fields replied, "I'm checking for loopholes."

A typical Fields line: "Twas a woman who drove me to drink. I never had
the
courtesy to thank her." Another one was: "Whilst traveling through the
Andes
Mountains, we lost our corkscrew. Had to live on food and water for
several
days!"

For those of us who are alcoholics, we can see what is actually going
on, and
it really isn't funny at all. But movie audiences at that time regarded
him as a
comic figure at whom they could laugh heartily, without even a twinge
of
uneasiness. And that in itself is a commentary on that era of American
history,
and the way people thought about alcoholism and drunkenness.

Glenn

see also http://www.imdb.com…….search word ‘wcfields’

billyk

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Great Santini 1979

Starring Robert Duvall, and Blythe Danner

Bull Meechum (Robert Duvall) loves fighting almost as much as he loves
the Marine Corps. Profane, cocky, and arrogant, he's a great fighter
pilot -- and he knows it. His boss hates his guts, but knows that if
he's
going to straighten out his lagging squadron, Meechum is the man to do
it. The story and irony of The Great Santini is in Meechum's total
intolerance of family life and fatherhood. Meechum has a lovely,
supportive
wife, Lillian (Blythe Danner), an earnest, likeable son, Ben (Michael
O'Keefe), three smaller children, and a good home, but Meechum finds
the
pastoral nature of peacetime totally incompatible with his gung-ho
nature. So he begins to drink. He drills his family unmercifully, like
recruits. He hammers his son relentlessly until, in a basketball game,
his
son fights back, and the family cheers Ben's efforts. Tension builds in

the household until, during one drunken night, Meechum breaks down.
Based on a best-selling novel by Pat Conroy, The Great Santini earned
critical raves but fared poorly at the box office. Duvall's performance
as
Meechum is generally regarded as one of his greatest.

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++++Message 2927. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Films - Part 2 of 6
From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 5:33:00 AM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Movies on Alcoholism Part 2 0f 6

Reviews by mostly non-professionals.

Assembled by billyk <billyk3@yahoo.com>

with additions by Glenn C.& AAHistory Lovers.with additions by Glenn C.&
AAHistory Lovers.

PLEASE SEND ALL CORRECTIONS OR COMMENTS DIRECTLY TO:
billyk <billyk3@yahoo.com> (billyk3 at yahoo.com)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Titles beginning with A-B

Affliction (1997)

Starring: Nick Nolte, Sissy Spacek, James Coburn, William Dafoe

Nick Nolte is a big, shambling, confident male presence in the movies,
and it is startling to see his cocksure presence change into fear in
Paul Schrader's ``Affliction.'' Nolte plays Wade Whitehouse, the
sheriff of a small New Hampshire town, whose uniform, gun and stature
do not make up for a deep feeling of worthlessness. He drinks, he
smokes pot on the job, he walks with a sad weariness, he is hated by
his ex-wife, and his young daughter looks at him as if he's crazy.

When we meet Glen, his father, we understand the source of his defeat.
The older man (James Coburn) is a cauldron of alcoholic venom, a man
whose consolation in life has been to dominate and terrorize his
family. There are scenes where both men are on the screen together, and
you can sense the sheriff shrinking, as if afraid of a sudden blow. The
women in their lives have been an audience for cruelty; of the older
man's wife, it is said, ``Women like this, it's like they lived their
lives with the sound turned off. And then they're gone.''
``Affliction'' is based on a novel by Russell Banks, whose work also
inspired ``The Sweet Hereafter.'' Both films are set in bleak winter
landscapes, and both involve a deep resentment of parental abuse--this
one more obviously, since Sheriff Whitehouse's entire unhappy life has
been, and still is, controlled by fear of his father. We're reminded of
other films Paul Schrader has written (``Taxi Driver,'' ``Raging
Bull,'' ``The Mosquito Coast'') or directed (``Mishima,''
``Hardcore''), in which men's violence is churned up by feelings of
inadequacy. (He also wrote ``The Last Temptation of Christ,'' in which
at least one line applies: ``Father, why hast thou forsaken me?'') Wade
Whitehouse is a bad husband, a bad father and a bad sheriff. He retains
enough qualities to inspire the loyalty, or maybe the sympathy, of a
girlfriend named Margie (Sissy Spacek), but his ex-wife (Mary Beth
Hurt) looks at him in deep contempt, and his brother Rolfe (Willem
Dafoe), the film's narrator, has been wise to clear out of the town and
its poisons.

Early in the film, Wade decides to show a little enterprise on the job.
A friend of his has gone out as a hunting guide for a rich man, and
returned with the man's expensive gun, some bloodstains and a story of
an accident. Wade doesn't believe it was an accident, and like a
sleepwalker talking himself back to wakefulness, he begins an
investigation that stirs up the stagnant town--and even rouses him into
a state where he can be reached, for the first time in years, by fresh
thoughts about how his life has gone wrong.

Because there are elements of a crime mystery in ``Affliction,'' it
would be unwise to reveal too much about this side of the plot. It is
interrupted, in any event, by another death: Wade and Margie go to the
old man's house to find that Wade's mother, Glen's wife, lies dead
upstairs and Glen is unable to acknowledge the situation. It is even
possible that the sick woman crawled upstairs and was forgotten by a
man whose inner eye has long been focused only on his own
self-diagnosis: not drunk enough, drunk just right or too drunk? Rolfe
returns to town for the funeral and to supply missing elements from the
story of their childhood, and the film ends in an explosion that seemed
prepared even in the first frame. Its meaning is very clear: Cruelty to
a child is not over in a moment or a day, but is like those medical
capsules embedded in the flesh, which release their contents for years.
Nolte and Coburn are magnificent in this film, which is like an
expiation or amends for abusive men. It is revealing to watch them in
their scenes together--to see how they're able to use physical presence
to sketch the history of a relationship. Schrader says he cast Coburn
because he needed an actor who was big enough, and had a ``great iconic
weight,'' to convincingly dominate Nolte. He found one. Coburn has
spent a career largely in shallow entertainments, and here he rises to
the occasion with a performance of power.

There is a story about that. ``I met with Coburn before the picture
began,'' Schrader told me, ``and told him how carefully Nolte prepares
for a role. I told Coburn that if he walked through the movie, Nolte
might let him get away with it for a day, but on the second day all
hell would break lose. Coburn said, `Oh, you mean you want me to really
act? I can do that. I haven't often been asked to, but I can.' '' He
can.

and

Dysfunctional families have always been the subject of motion pictures.
Recently, with movies like "American Beauty" and "The Story of Us,"
Hollywood has portrayed American households as candidates to be on the
next TV tabloid talk show. Paul Schrader's dramatic portrayal of a
troubled family in "Affliction" is as intense as any suspense thriller
released within the past few years. The thought-provoking power of his
script, based on the novel by Russell Banks, and the methods he uses to
execute the vivid, interpretative character study creates more than
just a sense of emotion and empathy, but places the audience in the
character's shoes, allowing us to explore a tense atmosphere on our
own.

The movie looks into the life of a struggling person named Wade
Whitehouse, played with extreme intensity by the descriptive Nick
Nolte. He is the lowly sheriff of a small backwoods in New Hampshire.
Nothing much happens in Lawford, however, thus Wade is usually
restricted to plowing the snowy streets and serving as the local
school's crossing guard. His ex-wife, Lillian (Mary Beth Hurt), has
most custody of their daughter, Jill (Brigid Tierney), and neither
relative enjoys his company. Wade's alcoholic father, Glen (James
Coburn in an Oscar worthy performance), who abused him and his brother
Rolfe (Willem Dafoe) as children, continues to abuse him emotionlly.

The subtle town of Lawford is turned upside-down when a rich
businessman is mysteriously killed while hunting with Wade's friend,
Jack Hewitt (Jim True). Finally given something to investigate, Wade
takes his job seriously, even when complications arise when his mother
dies, his brother comes home from Boston, and his waitress girlfriend
(Sissy Spacek) meets Wade's parents and realizes what she gotten
herself into.

As Wade's life starts to completely unravel, the filmmakers neglect to
leave out any details; from flashback of his fathers abuse to an
uncompromising toothache, Wade is developed vividly and clearly. The
movie is best when allowing Nick Nolte and James Coburn to come to
terms with each other's hatred for each other. The performances are
what make this movie much more distinct than similar but lesser films
like "The Other Sister" and "The Story of Us," and even better acted
than the masterpiece Award winner "American Beauty."

Instead of milking the dysfunctional family material to the maximum,
the film also has tender dialogue and heartfelt scenes that exhibit a
loving relationship between Wade and his girlfriend. These scenes make
even more tragic the production's unsettling conclusion and increase
the overall dramatic impact, which is tremendous.

By the end of "Affliction," like in "The Ice Storm," we feel for the
main character's losses. Although this film is more conclusive, it is
also unmerciful; we receive no happy ending, no satisfying motifs, this
movie takes itself seriously and has no pity, regrets, or agreements.
For Wade Whitehouse, the climax of the movie represents death, grief
and sorrow. For us, we can only stare at the screen and try to
comprehend what we have experienced through his eyes.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A Star is Born (1954)

Starring Judy Garland and James Mason

(Note: this film was originally made in 1937 starring Janet Gaynor and
Fredic March.
It was remade again in 1976 starring Barbara Streisand and Kris
Kristofferson.)

The 1954 musical remake of A Star is Born could have been titled A
Star is Reborn,
in that it represented the triumphal return to the screen of Judy
Garland after a
four-year absence. The remake adheres closely to the plotline of the
1937
original: An alcoholic film star, on his last professional legs, gives
a career boost
to a unknown aspiring actress.
The two marry, whereupon her fame and fortune rises while his spirals
sharply
downward. Unable to accept this, the male star crawls deeper into the
bottle. The
wife tearfully decides to give up her own career to care for her
husband. To spare
her this fate, the husband chivalrously commits suicide. His wife is
inconsolable at
first, but is urged to go "on with the show" in memory of her late
husband. In the
original, Janet Gaynor played Esther Blodgett, who with no training or
contacts
came to Hollywood hoping for stardom. The remake, scripted by Moss
Hart, is a
shade more realistic: Garland's Esther, though far removed from fame,
is a working
professional singer/dancer when first we meet her. Both Gaynor and
Garland are
transformed from "Esther Blodgett" to "Vicki Lester" after being
screen-tested,
though Gaynor goes on to star in fluffy costume dramas while Garland
more
logically headlines big-budget musicals. The 1937 Star is Born
costarred
Fredric March as Norman Maine, Esther/Vicki's sponsor-cum-spouse. March

patterned his performance after the tragic John Barrymore, reining in
his emotions
in favor of pure technique; James Mason's interpretation is more
original, more
emotional, and far more effective (who can forget the scene where
Norman
sobbingly overhears Vicki planning to give up her career for his sake?)
As the
studio's long-suffering publicist, the 1937 version's Lionel Stander is
more abrasive
and unpleasant than the 1954 version's introspective, intellectual Jack
Carson;
on the other hand, Adolphe Menjou and Charles Bickford are fairly
evenly matched
in the role of the studio head. Several important omissions are made in
the remake.
The 1937 Star is Born included Esther's indomitable old grandma (May
Robson),
a helpful assistant director (Andy Devine) and a soft-hearted landlord
(Edgar Kennedy); all three characters are missing from the 1954
version, though
elements of each can be found in the "best friend/severest critic"
character played
by Tommy Noonan. Wisely, both versions end with the grieving Vicki
Lester
coming out of her shell at a public gathering, greeting the audience
with a proud,
defiant "Good evening, everybody. This is Mrs. Norman Maine". Though
directors
William Wellman (1937 version) and George Cukor (1954 version) handle
this
finale in their own distinctive manners, the end result is equally
effective emotionally.
What truly sets the 1954 A Star is Born apart from other films of its
ilk is its
magnificent musical score by Harold Arlen and Ira Gershwin. The songs
include
The Man Who Got Away (brilliantly performed by Garland in one long
take,
sans dubbing), It's a New World, Somewhere There's a Someone, I Was
Born
in a Trunk, Lose That Long Face and Gotta Have Me Go With You. When
originally
previewed in 1954, the film ran well over three hours, thanks to the
lengthy-and
thoroughly disposable-Born in a Trunk number, added to the film as an
afterthought
without the approval or participation of director George Cukor. The
Warner Bros.
executives trimmed the film to 154 minutes, eliminating three top-rank
musical
numbers and several crucial expository sequences (including Norman's
proposal
to Vicki). At the instigation of the late film historian Ronald Haver,
the full version
was painstakingly restored in 1983, with outtakes and still photos
bridging the
"lost" footage. Though nominated in several categories, A Star is Born
was left
empty-handed at Academy Award time, an oversight that caused outrage
then
and still rankles Judy Garland fans to this day (Footnote: Judy Garland
had
previously played Vicki Lester in a 1942 Lux Radio Theatre adaptation
of the
original A Star is Born). — Hal Erickson

The 1954 A Star is Born had better music than the 1937 original, but
that's
about all that viewers may agree on in assessing one version against
the other.
On the downside, the music added about an hour to the running time. The
film
was re-cut and shortened by studio executives after release. Despite
the efforts
of restoration experts, there are today no complete prints of the
original release
version. Judy Garland benefits from the increased emphasis on her
character,
and the film is far more of a star vehicle for her than was the
original for
Janet Gaynor. To make room for the songs, several supporting characters
from
the 1937 version were eliminated. The result is a film that, despite
the increased
length, has less story-telling richness, though the deficiency is
compensated by
Garland's superb performance. The film was not among the Oscar nominees
for
Best Picture, though it did receive six other nominations, including
for Garland,
James Mason, and "The Man That Got Away" as Best Song.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Barfly 1987

Starring Mickey Rourke and Faye Dunaway

This movie captures the true essence of life as an alcoholic and the
day to day struggles one has to endure. With Faye Dunaway as his
companion, we see the true struggle of humanity. With a wonderful
screenplay
and articulate direction, this must see movie will definitely make you
ponder. I felt that the movie was a true drama, but it has many comedic

moments. You will truly be entertained with Henry's whimsical quotes
and
intoxicated utterances. He is the best drunk/poet you will ever witness

on film!

AND

The script for this movie was written by outrageous
poet-author-alcoholic Charles Bukowski. But director Barbet Schroeder
makes it into an oddly amusing story of a pugnacious drunk writer
(Mickey
Rourke) based on Bukowski himself. Rourke spends almost all of his time

at the bar, struggling with sobriety (he's against it) and,
occasionally, having
fistfights with the bartender (Frank Stallone). He meets another souse,
a
formerly attractive woman (Faye Dunaway), and gets involved with her,
which means they drink copious amounts of liquor and try to have sex.
Not
much happens beyond that, yet this film is strangely entertaining, for
all of its bottom-of-the-barrel humanity. Maybe that's the secret.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bottom of the Bottle, The. 1956

Starring Van Johnson, Joseph Cotton and Ruth Roman

Story an two brothers, one an alcoholic and ex-offender who
embarrasses
his sober brother, and leaves for Mexico to escape.

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++++Message 2928. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Films - Part 1 of 6
From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 5:31:00 AM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Movies on Alcoholism Part 1 0f 6

Reviews by mostly non-professionals.

Assembled by billyk <billyk3@yahoo.com>

with additions by Glenn C.& AAHistory Lovers.

PLEASE SEND ALL CORRECTIONS OR COMMENTS DIRECTLY TO:
billyk <billyk3@yahoo.com> (billyk3 at yahoo.com)

Part 1 of 6 – Contents
Part 2 of 6 – Movies A-B
Part 3 of 6 – Movies C-G
Part 4 of 6 – Movies H-M
Part 5 of 6 – Movies N-T
Part 6 of 6 – Movies U-Z

CONTENTS
Affliction (1997) starring Nick Nolte, Sissy Spacek, James Coburn,
William Dafoe
A Star is Born (1954) starring Judy Garland and James Mason
Barfly (1987) starring Mickey Rourke and Faye Dunaway
Bottom of the Bottle (1956) starring Van Johnson, Joseph Cotton and
Ruth Roman
Chalk Talk (n.d.) by Father Joseph Martin
Clean and Sober (1988) starring Michael Keaton
Come Back, Little Sheba (1952) starring Shirley Booth, Burt Lancaster
and Terry Moore
Come Fill the Cup (1951) starring James Cagney, Raymond Massey and Gig
Young
Country Girl (1954) starring Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly
Days of Wine and Roses (1962) starring Jack Lemmon, Lee Remick and Jack
Klugman
Drunks (1997) starring Richard Lewis and Faye Dunaway
Fields, W. C. (acted in numerous movies from 1915 to 1942)
Great Santini (1979) starring Robert Duvall and Blythe Danner
Harvey (1950) starring Jimmy Stewart, Josephine Hull
I’ll Cry Tomorrow (1955) starring Susan Hayward, Richard Conte
Ironweed (1987) sStarring Jack Nicholson and Meryl Streep.
Lady Sings the Blues (1972) starring Diana Ross and Billie Dee Williams
Leaving Las Vegas (1995) starring Nicolas Cage and Elisabeth Sue
Life of the Party: The Story of Beatrice (1982) starring Carol Burnett
and Llyod Bridges
Lost Weekend (1945) starring Ray Milland and Jane Wyman
My Name is Bill W. (1989) starring James Woods, Jo Beth Williams, James
Garner
and Gary Sinese
My Name is Kate (1994 ) starring Donna Mills, Daniel J. Travanti and
Nia Peeples
Night into Morning (1951) starring Ray Milland and John Hodiak
On the Nickle (1980) starring Donald Moffat and Ralph Waite
Sarah T. -- Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic (2003) starring Linda Blair
and Steve Benedict
Shakes the Clown (1992) starring Bobcat Goldthwait, Julie Brown, Bruce
Baum
Shattered Spirits (1986) starring Martin Sheen and Melinda Dillion
Smash Up (1947) starring Susan Hayward and Lee Bowman
Something to Live For (1952) starring Ray Milland and Joan Fontaine
Stuart Saves His Family (1995) starring Al Franken, Laura San Giacomo
Tender Mercies (1983) starring Robert Duvall and Tess Harper
Too Much, Too Soon (1958) starring Dorothy Malone and Errol Flynn
Trees Lounge (1996) starring Carol Kane, Mark Boone Junior, Steve
Buscemi,
Bronson Dudley
28 Days (2000) starring Sandra Bullock, Dominic West
Under the Influence (1986) starring Andy Griffith, Season Hubley, Paul
Provenza,
Keanu Reeves, Dana Andersen
Under The Volcano (1984) starring Albert Finney and Jacqueline Bisset
Vital Signs (1986) starring Edward Asner, Gary Cole
Voice in the Mirror (1958) starring Richard Egan and Julie London
When A Man Loves A Woman (1994) starring: Meg Ryan, Andy Garcia, Ellen
Burstyn

NO MENTION OF ALCOHOLISM IN THE REVIEWS

The following four movies have also been recommended by one or more
members as
a movie about alcoholism, but in the available reviews, such words as
alcoholism,
recovery and aa are not used.

Life of the Party
On Thin Ice
Sideways
The Verdict

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++++Message 2929. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Films - Part 4 of 6
From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 5:36:00 AM

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Movies on Alcoholism – Part 4 of 6

Reviews by mostly non-professionals.

Assembled by billyk. (billyk3@yahoo.com)

with additions by Glenn C.& AAHistory Lovers.

PLEASE SEND ALL CORRECTIONS OR COMMENTS DIRECTLY TO:
billyk <billyk3@yahoo.com> (billyk3 at yahoo.com)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Titles beginning with H to M

Harvey 1950

Starring Jimmy Stewart, Josephine Hull

This excellent lighthearted film was adapted from the Pulitzer Prize
winning hit play written by Mary Chase. Josephine Hull won a best
supporting actress Oscar for her portrayal of Elwood P. Dowd's long
suffering
sister Veta Louise Simmons. James Stewart, who plays Dowd, was
nominated for best actor in this 1950 film but lost out to Jose Ferrer
in
Cyrano de Bergerac.

Elwood P. Dowd is a friendly, likeable drunk who has a best friend
named Harvey, a six foot three and a half inch invisible white rabbit.
This
movie was made back in the days when alcoholics could be likeable ....
People have written disputing that Elwood P. Dowd is a drunk because
you never see him take a drink during the movie. While it is true that
you don't see him taking a drink in movie, you have to assume that he
orders all those martinis for some reason. You also have to assume that
he
hides bottles in his bookcase at home for some reason, too.

Harvey is a pooka, which is described in the movie as, "From old Celtic

mythology, a fairy spirit in animal form, always very large. The pooka
appears here and there, now and then, to this one and that one. A
benign but mischievous creature very fond of rumpots, crackpots,
and...."

Jesse White does a good job portraying Marvin Wilson, the psychiatric
orderly who totally mistrusts Elwood P. Dowd and isn't fond of him as
the other characters in the movie seem to be. Veta Simmons' daughter,
Myrtle May Simmons, is played by Victoria Horne. She is frustrated in
her
attempts to meet eligible gentlemen and blames her lack of suitable
callers on Elwood and his large rabbit. She meets her soul mate in the
form of Marvin Wilson, however. Elwood P. Dowd tries, all through the
movie, to introduce Harvey to everyone he meets but the only one who
eventually sees him is Dr. Chumley, the psychiatrist. Dowd's sister
Veta
sometimes acknowledges the existence of Harvey but only when she's
under
extreme stress.

Some people may say that this movie is dated and out of touch with
today's reality but maybe that's what gives it its charm.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I’ll Cry Tomorrow 1955

Starring Susan Hayward, Richard Conte

"I'll Cry Tomorrow" is a biopic about Lillian Roth (played in adulthood

by Susan Hayward), a singer pushed to child stardom by her relentless
stage mother and plunged into alcoholism after becoming a "big star" as

an adult. It's fairly effective in spite of Susan Hayward's histrionics

and deliciously enjoyable because of them.

Hayward is rather an anomaly. She has a Dresden doll pretty face yet
this gruff voice (reminiscent of Barbara Stanwyck, a fellow
Brooklynite)
and somewhat tough-girl-from -the-wrong-side-of-the-tracks behavior.
She also has a tendency to overdo the emoting like nobody's business,
alternately widening eyes or squinting, tossing her head. Her
artificiality is reminiscent almost of silent screen acting like Garbo
was famous
for, except that Garbo's style was appropriate for the silent era and
Hayward is in a whole other era where it just looks odd.

When she sneers, "Ah, shaddap" at one point in the worst imitation of a

gun moll, I gave in and started laughing. Then I really began to enjoy
her. I thought that if she's this over the top in the beginning, she'll

be deliciously off the charts in the second half when her character's
alcoholism progresses. Surprisingly, she actually got really good in
the
later half where the excessive emoting works. It then became a
wrenching and sometimes even chilling portrait of alcoholism.

As for the singing -- first, what's with that Egyptian cakewalk
choreography? Fingers splayed, elbows up, walking grapevine step. In
the right
key, as with the song "Happiness is a Thing Called Joe," she isn't bad
but in some of those opening numbers that require lots of belting and
chord changes -- the flat notes can jar. Unlike Judy Garland who could
sing and act and do both amazingly, Hayward is flirting on the side of
bad taste. But ultimately that's part of her appeal. She's perfect for
tawdry melodrama and great fun to watch. She really does give it her
all, camp tendencies notwithstanding. Life piles it on and she
perseveres.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ironweed 1987

The novel was awarded a Pulitzer prize.

Starring Jack Nicholson and Meryl Streep.

There are many reasons why this film is a masterpiece, but the most
significant
element is surely Streep's portrayal of a homeless alcoholic in 1930's
Albany.
Her appearance, about half an hour into the film, is quite frankly,
astonishing.
She walks into a soup kitchen and sits down next to Nicholson and your
jaw
drops at the transformation. Beyond the technical virtuosity, you
marvel at the
choices that Streep makes that express the character so movingly, from
the
vocal production which is almost like a groan of pain, to the body
language
including her constantly averted glance and shuffling walk which
express the
woman's lost self esteem, to her bursts of rage when we see the glimmer
of
the spirit she once posessed. There's a scene in a bar in which she
sings for
the patrons that you will never forget.

Every other element of the film succeeds: the other performances
(Nicholson,
Tom Waits and Carol Baker stand out), the production design recreating
a
vanished era flawlessly without resorting to the phony perfection of
say a
Merchant Ivory film, the sound design which is surprisingly complex for
such
an intimate film, the screenplay, the cinematography, the direction.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lady Sings the Blues 1972

Starring Diana Ross and Billie Dee Williams

The most influential, creative, and emotional blues singer from the
1930s to the early 1950s, Billie Holiday may have attracted a whole new

generation of fans through this 1972 film biography. Though the film is

not historically accurate about her life and her relationship with
Louis
McKay (played by Billie Dee Williams), it is effective in demonstrating

the traumas of her early life, the color bar which prevented her from
singing in many whites-only venues, her drug and alcohol addictions
(which eventually led to her death at age forty-four of liver and heart

disease), and the events which led to many of her most famous songs.

Diana Ross, as Billie, is passionate and driven, and her portrayal of
Billie in the midst of drug withdrawal is heart-rending and effective.
Playing the role "full out," Ross deals with the script she has been
given, and she richly deserves her Golden Globe Award for Most
Promising
Female Newcomer in this screen debut. A consortium of scriptwriters,
which drew on the frank, but partly fictionalized, autobiography Billie

wrote with William Dufty in 1956, has omitted or changed many aspects
of
her life in order to make the film more unified and dramatic, creating
a film that creates even more myths about Billie.

Billy Dee Williams is terrific as Louis McKay, appearing slick and
smooth at the beginning, but showing subtle changes of feeling as he is

drawn into Billie's orbit and provides some stability for her. The
accompanist (Richard Pryor) seems genuinely to care for her, as, it
seems,
does Reg Hanley (James T. Callahan), though the reasons Harry Bradford
(Paul Hampton) has for getting her hooked on drugs is not clear. Ross
is
surprisingly good when she sings Billie's songs, copying her phrasing
and creating a sound that somewhat resembles hers, though Billie's
gutsy
heart is missing.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Leaving Las Vegas 1995

Starring Nicolas Cage and Elisabeth Sue

One of the most critically acclaimed films of 1995, this wrenchingly
sad but extraordinarily moving drama provides an authentic, superbly
acted portrait of two people whose lives intersect just as they've
reached
their lowest depths of despair. Ben (Nicolas Cage, in an Oscar-winning
performance) is a former movie executive who's lost his wife and family

in a sea of alcoholic self-destruction. He's come to Las Vegas
literally to drink himself to death, and that's when he meets Sera
(Elisabeth
Shue), a prostitute who falls in love with him -- and he with her --
despite their mutual dead-end existence. They accept each other as they

are, with no attempts by one to change the other, and this
unconditional
love turns Leaving Las Vegas into a somber yet quietly beautiful love
story. Earning Oscar nominations for Best Director (Mike Figgis), Best
Adapted Screenplay (Figgis, from John O'Brien's novel) and Best Actress

(Shue), the film may strike some as relentlessly bleak and glacially
paced, but attentive viewers will readily discover the richness of
these
tragic characters and the exceptional performances that bring them to
life. (In a sad echo of his own fiction, novelist John O'Brien
committed
suicide while this film was in production.)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Life of the Party: The Story of Beatrice 1982

Starring Carol Burnett and Llyod Bridges

A fact-based TV movie starring Carol Burnett and Lloyd Bridges. Burnett
plays
Beatrice (emphasis on the second syllable: "Be-AT-trice") who
compensates for
her shyness and lack of self-respect by drinking heavily. Bridges plays
Beatrice's
husband, who tolerates his wife alcoholic intake until he can stand no
more. She
begins attending Alcoholics Anonymous and cleans up her act. But that's
not the
end of the story: Beatrice then sets out to establish a halfway house
for other
female alcoholics. The domestic scenes between Burnett and Bridges are
far
more compelling than Burnett's climactic tiltings with bureaucracy
during her efforts
to realize her dream.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lost Weekend 1945

Starring Ray Milland and Jane Wyman

"I'm not a drinker -- I'm a drunk." These words, and the serious
message behind them, were still potent enough in 1945 to shock
audiences
flocking to The Lost Weekend. The speaker is Don Birnam (Ray Milland),
a
handsome, talented, articulate alcoholic. The writing team of producer
Charles Brackett and director Billy Wilder pull no punches in their
depiction of Birnam's massive weekend bender, a tailspin that finds him

reeling from his favorite watering hole to Bellevue Hospital. Location
shooting in New York helps the street-level atmosphere, especially a
sequence in which Birnam, a budding writer, tries to hock his
typewriter for
booze money. He desperately staggers past shuttered storefronts -- it's

Yom Kippur, and the pawnshops are closed. Milland, previously known as
a lightweight leading man (he'd starred in Wilder's hilarious The Major

and the Minor three years earlier), burrows convincingly under the skin

of the character, whether waxing poetic about the escape of drinking or

screaming his lungs out in the D.T.'s sequence. Wilder, having just
made the ultra-noir Double Indemnity, brought a new kind of frankness
and
darkness to Hollywood's treatment of a social problem. At first the
film may have seemed too bold; Paramount Pictures nearly killed the
release of the picture after it tested poorly with preview audiences.
But
once in release, The Lost Weekend became a substantial hit, and won
four
Oscars: for picture, director, screenplay, and actor.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My Name is Bill W. 1989

Starring James Woods, Jo Beth Williams, James Garner and Gary Sinese

Based on facts, and faithful to them, it deals with the founder of
Alcoholics Anonymous. It begins in 1935. Bill Wilson (James Woods) is a

successful stockbroker whose personal and professional lives are on the

rocks because of excessive, compulsive drinking. Lois, his loving,
gutsy
wife has to get a job, in a department store. She is played by JoBeth
Williams, one of my favorite actresses who is also good-looking in a
special, very distinctive way. Bill’s best friend Ebby (Gary Sinise)
witnesses helplessly his buddy’s descent to a sort of Hades. James
Woods,
one of our best thespians, gives here another bravura performance, and
as
usual it is quite convincing. When he goes over the top which is a
specialty of his -- he is entirely credible.

The story covers a longish period of time. Things are as gloomy and
hopeless as can be. To make matters worse, Bill is often hospitalized
after accidents. Eventually he contacts Robert Holbrook Smith, aka Dr.
Bob.
The latter is an intelligent, warm physician who is himself an
alcoholic. Bill and Bob become friends and after a number of steps, the

founders of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Often, TV films have economic production values, but here they are just

like those of "legit" movies. The entire cast is excellent. This
powerful docudrama received a host of nominations for awards, with
Woods
getting an Emmy.

and

This is the story of the founding of the organization Alcoholics
Anonymous.
I am acquainted with two people who knew Bill W (the main character in
the
movie) and they say that they believe this is an accurate depiction of
the
events shown in it.

and

This movie carries a great message, and I was deeply touched by the
story
of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. It's an important historic
treasure
being preserved in a true and respectful film. The story is
straightforward and
strong and gives and honest impression of the pioneers of AA. Let this
movie
carry the message too.. There is a solution.. ;-)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My Name is Kate 1994

Starring Donna Mills, Daniel J. Travanti and Nia Peeples

A suburban wife, mother and businesswoman is forced to undergo
treatment for alcoholism after family and friends threaten to desert
her. While
at a rehabilitation center, she confronts her addiction with the help
of a diverse group and begins the long road back to recovering her
life.

and

I started watching this movie because I was curious about how trite and
formulaic
it could get. While it IS trite and formulaic, it's not as bad as I
expected. There
was the "Great Denial" scene, the "I Don't Belong In Treatment" scene,
and the
"Family Confrontation" scene, as well as the character that we all root
for who
doesn't make it. While there is the standard "Happy Ending", there are
a few
unexpected bumps. All is not "Happily Ever After". After years of
supporting a
drunk wife 'for the sake of the kids' the husband admits he has found
someone
else. But, our heroine prevails, and stays sober.

__________________________________________________
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++++Message 2930. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Films - Part 5 of 6
From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 5:38:00 AM

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Movies on Alcoholism Part 5 of 6

Reviews by mostly non-professionals.

Assembled by billyk. <billyk3@yahoo.com>

with additions by Glenn C.& AAHistory Lovers

PLEASE SEND ALL CORRECTIONS OR COMMENTS DIRECTLY TO:
billyk <billyk3@yahoo.com> (billyk3 at yahoo.com)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Titles beginning with N to T

Night into Morning. 1951

Starring Ray Milland and John Hodiak
Small-town professor loses family in fire, becomes out-of-control and
self-destructive(suicidal) alcoholic. No specific treatments noted.
Attribution
is to the tragedy and not to a weakness or moral condition.

and

Perhaps it's the Berkeley locale that appeals to me, but I was riveted
by this
intelligently written and well acted look at alcoholism. Sure it's
treading on
similar ground to The Lost Weekend, but this is a much more intimate
picture.
Milland is outstanding as always, and even Nancy Kelly (Reagan) does
well.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On the Nickle 1980

Starring Donald Moffat and Ralph Waite

"On The Nickle" is a thoroughly forgotten film about skid row high
jinks in Los Angeles. It is directed by Ralph Waite who also plays a
part
in this 1980 movie.

It is a film which I was lucky enough to tape from the "Z Channel" (now

defunct) in Los Angeles many years ago. The brainchild of actor Ralph
Waite (of Waltons), it was independently made on a very low budget. In
it, Waite manages to balance the tragedy of skid-row life with humor
and
irony, and in spite of an easy, Fellini-esque ending, tells a moving
story of a man (Donald Moffat) a former alcoholic and skid row dweller,

struggling to "put his demons to rest" as he searches the "Nickle"
(Fifth Street) for his old pal, C.G., played by Ralph Waite. The movie
is
bookended by the Tom Waits song, "On The Nickle", presumably written
for
the movie, and has a score that quotes the song frequently. Maybe the
Independent Film Channel will consider running it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sarah T. -- Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic 2003

Starring Linda Blair and Steve Benedict

Fresh from her success in The Exorcist (and several years away from her

tenure as queen of the women in prison flicks), Linda Blair stars in
this searing TV movie. Sarah (Blair), a normal teenaged girl, begins
drinking socially at high school parties. She soon finds that she can't

stop -- and even worse, she can't keep her boozing a secret. After a
near-tragic baby-sitting episode, Sarah decides to attend Alcoholics
Anonymous, but soon she's back on the hard stuff. Only when Sarah
causes
the death of a horse does she strengthen her resolve to remain "clean
and
sober."

"Sarah T: Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic" tempers the more sensational

aspects of the subject matter with some unforgettably poignant
vignettes -- including the A.A. testimony of a boy who's even younger
than
Sarah.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Shakes the Clown 1992

Starring Bobcat Goldthwait, Julie Brown, Bruce Baum

Bobcat is Shakes the Clown; an alcoholic party clown that doesn't know
how to turn his life around. He hangs out in a dumpy clown-bar ("The
Twisted Balloon"), and vainly wishes he could be a television clown.
All
he needs is one big break, but he's generally too drunk to do what's
best for himself, like practice his juggling and regular pie-throwing
target practice. Binky the clown is his arch nemesis; Binky is the
suburban party-clown that is used to things going his way. Binky is
also busy
pushing dope he buys from the more rowdy Rodeo Clowns. Shakes ends up
in the wrong place during a bad drug deal and gets framed for killing a

leader of the clown community with a juggling pin. That's the basic
plot and you know by now whether you will enjoy the movie or not. In my

opinion it's absolutely brilliant and, even though crude at times,
makes
for an interesting look at the different factions within society and
how we behave towards people from different backgrounds. It's not a
cutesy morale-building movie, but it's message is thinly cloaked with
hilarious dialogue and humor.

Of course it's raw, of course it's crude, but that's the POINT!
Clowns are supposed to be happy, smiling icons of goodness. These
clowns are NOT! That's what makes "Shakes the Clown" work. Other than a
few
minutes of boring "filler" scenes, the entire movie makes you laugh,
whether you feel guilty about it or not! And it doesn't even need Robin

Williams, although that's a nice surprise. Any movie that opens with
Florence Henderson's make-up smeared face after a one night stand with
a
drunken clown HAS to be great.

AND

This black comedy chronicles the fall of one of the world's most
unlovable clowns as he plies his trade and tries to survive in
Palukaville a
town where everyone is more or less a Bozo. Shakes loves women and more

than that, he loves his booze. Like many of his painted peers, ol'
Shakes likes to hang out at The Twisted Balloon, the favorite local pub

where he hoists a few, beats up on mimes (the lowest caste in
Palukaville)
and causes trouble with his girl friend Judy, a woman who cannot say
the letter "L." Because the slovenly Shakes can't seem to make it to
birthday parties sober and on time, he is fired from his booking
agency,
causing him to go on a big drinking binge. Later, Shakes awakens and
learns that Binky, a lousy TV clown, is framing him for beating up
Shake's
former boss with a juggling pin. Now poor Shakes must clear his name.
He must also rescue "Juwee" who has been kidnapped by the nefarious
Binky, and he must come to grips with his alcohol problem (perhaps the
film
could be therefore titled "Clown and Sober?"). Keep an eye peeled for
cameos by Robin Williams, as a mime instructor, and Florence Henderson
as one of Shake's illicit sexual conquests.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Shattered Spirits 1986

Starring Martin Sheen and Melinda Dillion

This film was first shown on TV at the boomtime of recovery when Betty
Ford was pushing for recovery for families affected by addiction. The
story portrays a middle class family hiding dad's (Sheen's) alcoholism
and sliding down the slope of denial. The reactions of the family to
crises and the roles they each fall into are so accurately done that
the
viewer can get way into his/her own alcoholic upbringing and pain
before
they are aware of it.

I have shown this at several gatherings and it never fails to shake
some people up seriously. Kids are especially vulnerable in their teen
years. But entire families can get very agitated during the viewing. So
I
would recommend that anyone showing or viewing this film be prepared to

deal with some extreme reactions for several days afterwards. Don't
just show this and send your guests home. Instead have a discussion and
a
followup trip to a meeting of Alateen, Al-Anon or AA.

AND

Martin Sheen stars as an alcoholic father, while M.I.F. Hall-of-Famer
Melinda Dillon desperately tries to hold the family together in the
wake
of dad's inebriated rampages. The film is pretty good (if vaguely
TV-movie-ish), particularly when Martin Sheen tells his son that he's
going
into a bar to meet a buddy, and comes out six hours later! Was the
"buddy" named Jack Daniels? However, I did resent watching the movie a
bit
-- I sat next to the class cutie, and we'd struck up a nice little
in-class friendship. So for three days, the lights were off and we
weren't
allowed to talk. Thanks a lot! Even so, it definitely opened up an
important discussion about alcoholism. I have a weakness for Newcastle
Brown Ale, but I try to remember the lesson in moderation that Martin
Sheen
taught me.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Smash Up 1947

Starring Susan Hayward and Lee Bowman

"Smash Up" is a tear jerker that offered Susan Hayward her first
staring role as Angela Evans. Angela has a promising career as a singer
ahead
of her when she tosses it all away for domestic bliss with
up-and-coming singer husband, Ken Conway (Lee Bowman). Everything is
perfect at
first, but then when Ken hits the big time, Angela's deep insecurities
emerge, and soon Angela plummets into a serious drinking problem. Ken
professes amazement and then annoyance with Angela's behavior -- after
all,
he reasons, she has everything a woman can want. Then the marriage hits

the rocks, and Angela hits the bottle even more than before ....

Eddie Albert plays Steve Nelson, Ken's accompanist and partner. Steve
is the steady bachelor who can see the error of Ken's remote and
disaffected ways. Marsha Grey (Marsha Hunt) plays a conniving woman who
wants
Ken for herself.

The film is corny in parts, and the relentless playing of the theme
grates on one's nerves, but this is Susan Hayward's film. She delivers
a
stunning performance as the needy Angela, whose decline begins with her

husband's success. Some of the scenes called for her to be drunk, or to

get drunk, and she performed excellently. Not everyone can pull off the

role of a drunk, but there were some scenes when it wasn't quite clear,

at first, whether or not Angela was tipsy -- she didn't overdo it once.

If you want to watch a 40s tear jerker, watch this.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Something to Live For. 1952

Starring Ray Milland and Joan Fontaine

An actress is guided by an Alcoholics Anonymous member to control her
alcoholism and her feelings of rejection.

and

I enjoyed this film a lot. Joan Fontaine plays Jenny Carey, a
struggling actress
whose insecurities and stage fright drive her to drink. Ray Milland is
Allan Miller,
an advertising executive who is a recovering alcoholic and a member of
AA.
He is called to Jenny's hotel room by the elevator operator one night
when
Jenny had been on a drinking binge. She was due at a rehearsal of a
Broadway
play. This meeting of Jenny and Alan lead to romance, even though Allen
is
married and has two children and one on the way. Jenny tries to cut off
the
romance as she feels it is improper, but Allan is totally taken with
Jenny and
wants to continue the romance. Joan Fontaine and Ray Milland have
wonderful
screen chemistry. Both are excellent as their respective characters,
although
parts of the script are somewhat weak. Will Alan leave his wife for
Jenny? Will
Jenny conquer alcoholism and get her chance to star in a Broadway play?
This
film is seldom seen on cable, but is sometimes put up for bid on eBay.
It is
certainly worth a look. The film was directed by George Stevens.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Stuart Saves His Family 1995

Starring Al Franken, Laura San Giacomo

Though it seems like a one-joke premise, this spinoff of Al Franken's
Saturday Night Live character, self-help nerd Stuart Smalley, actually
has some substance. And, in fact, it offers a message that wouldn't be
out of place at an Al-Anon meeting (although with the laughs). Stuart,
fired from his cable TV self-help show, goes home to resolve a family
crisis. Dad (Harris Yulin) is an abusive drunk, Mom (Shirley Knight) is

an enabler, Sis is an over-eater, and Brother has a problem with his
temper. The film turns serious, but Franken actually makes the drama
interesting, using humor to leaven it. And he brings a certain sympathy
and
resolve to the lisping, cross-eyed Stuart. To be sure, it's not your
typical SNL movie.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Tender Mercies. 1983

Starring Robert Duvall and Tess Harper

Story of "Mac Sledge" (Robert Duvall, Best Actor), former star country
singer, lost in the bottle, who recovers and through the non-judgmental

health of a new wife (Tess Harper). He stays sober despite the death
of
his child and post-divorce conflicts. No group or individual therapy
indicated.

and

A once-great but out-of-style country music singer, ruined by drink,
finds
redemption through the love and support of a new wife, her son by a
long-dead Vietnam casualty, and a local band which never forgot his
greatness. Along the way, he encounters his ex-wife, whom he lost due
to alcohol, and the daughter he didn't get to see grow up.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Too Much, Too Soon. 1958

Starring Dorothy Malone and Errol Flynn

Dorothy Malone as Diana Barrymore who stays away from her alcoholic
father
during his lifetime only to turn to excessive drinking and numerous
marriages
and suicide attempts. Treatment center. A "moral" ending with
Barrymore in
recovery. This is an early portrayal of children and their experiences
in
alcoholic/drug abusing family settings.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Trees Lounge 1996

Starring Carol Kane, Mark Boone Junior, Steve Buscemi, Bronson Dudley

Steve Buscemi, an icon of the independent film world for years, took
the opportunity to write, direct, and star in this wistful low-budget
gem. He plays Tommy, a Long Island loser who gets tossed from his job
as a
mechanic for questionable financial antics. He spends his days at a
local bar, drinking his life away even as he denies that he's doing any

such thing. And when he finally works up the gumption to get a job, he
winds up driving an ice-cream truck in his old neighborhood -- and
getting involved in an inappropriate relationship with his teeny-bopper

assistant (Chloe Sevigny), earning the violent enmity of her father
(Daniel
Baldwin). Low-key in its approach, the film has a sad humor that is
both knowing and forgiving, as well as offering one of Buscemi's best
performances.

AND

Unlike Cheers, the title establishment of Steve Buscemi's astonishingly

accomplished debut feature, Trees Lounge, is a place where everybody
doesn't know your name and sometimes can't remember his or her own. And

for good reason. Take leading barfly Tommy Basilio, played by Buscemi
with a subtlety, sensitivity, and desperate wit that add another
dimension to the memorable lowlifes he's made a career of. Tommy has
lost
Connie (Elizabeth Bracco), his girlfriend, and Rob (Anthony LaPaglia),
his
best friend -- to each other, naturally. He's also lost his job as a
mechanic, and everything else that matters in his life except for
hanging
out at the bar, hitting on drunken women, and thinking just maybe he
can break out of this malaise by fulfilling his dream of becoming a
comedian. It's not likely; even his car works only as a metaphor for
his
life -- if he doesn't keep his foot on the accelerator it will stall
out,
perhaps never to start again.

Set in Valley Stream, the blue-collar town on Long Island where Buscemi

grew up, this vaguely autobiographical film captures the seedy bars,
tacky bungalows, and cheesy storefronts with such weary familiarity it
evokes a gray haze of anomie. True to its subject, the narrative
consists
of a series of binges and blackouts, with Tommy slipping in and out of
encounters with oddballs, hangovers, and constant irrefutable evidence
of his own futility. Buscemi's inspiration is John Cassavetes, but his
style lacks his mentor's coiled spontaneity and nascent chaos. To its
advantage, though, he's much more narratively coherent than Cassavetes,

unreeling with casual clarity his film's many interconnecting tales,
his tone sweet and nearly serene, belying the sometimes sordid and
mean-spirited antics of the characters.

Who include Mike (Mark Boone Junior, bearish and weird in a compelling
performance), a relative well-to-do entrepreneur who gets off by
slumming at the lounge, cozying up especially to Tommy, and plying him
with
drinks in a fuzzy attempt to live vicariously in his demi-monde. When
Mike's wife (Eszter Balint) leaves with her daughter, he talks Tommy
into
coming back to his place with a couple of teenage pick-ups for a party.

What results is less erotic than pathetic, with both Mike's need and
Tommy's exposed beneath their sodden bravura. Adding to this deflating
of
macho is a scene in which Tommy tries to pick up a blowzy but seemingly

willing Crystal (Debi Mazar). He gets her drunk -- too drunk. She
passes out, but Tommy refuses to give up his efforts to score. It's
hilarious and very sad.

Tommy's tale takes a dramatic turn of sorts when his Uncle Al (Seymour
Cassel, who makes a vivid impression in his few minutes on screen,
especially when fondling his niece in a home video) dies of a heart
attack.
After a funeral that's a mini-masterpiece of familial insensitivity and

bad taste, Tommy is offered Uncle Al's legacy -- an ice-cream-truck
route. In addition to the coterie of dubious neighborhood kids
disappointed that he's not Uncle Al, the route also includes Debbie
(Chloe
Sevigny, much more appealing and nuanced than in Kids), the nubile
daughter
of his friend Jerry (Daniel Baldwin) and Jerry's wife, Patty (Mimi
Rogers).

Tommy used to babysit Debbie; now, draped coltishly over the passenger
seat of the ice-cream truck, she engages him in banter. It's the
closest Tommy gets to a genuine relationship, and of course he ruins
it. In a
delicate orchestration of tenderness and sexual tension the opening up
of his soul leads to the opening up of his fly, and his last chance at
redemption ends with him getting chased by an enraged man with a
baseball bat.

It takes an extraordinary degree of dramatic integrity, meticulous
detail, and triumphant irony to redeem such a loser, and Buscemi -- as
writer, director, and actor -- is equal to the task. Although alter ego

Tommy is left bereft and staring blankly at the bar, for Steve Buscemi
Trees Lounge marks the start of a richly promising filmmaking career.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

28 Days 2000

Starring Sandra Bullock, Dominic West

To appreciate 28 Days, it's best to be thankful that director Betty
Thomas hasn't forced Sandra Bullock into a remake of Clean and Sober.
Instead Thomas has balanced her comedic sensibility (evident in Dr.
Dolittle and Private Parts) with the seriousness of alcoholism and
substance
abuse, and she succeeds without compromising the gravity of the subject

matter. Some critics have scoffed at the movie's breezy, formulaic
portrait of 27-year-old boozer and pill-popper Gwen Cummings (Bullock),
but
this smooth-running star vehicle does for Bullock what Erin Brockovich
did for Julia Roberts, focusing her appeal in a substantial role
without taxing the limits of her talent. It's no wonder that Susannah
Grant
(who wrote both films) was one of the hottest new screenwriters of
1999.
She writes "Hollywood Lite" without insulting anyone's intelligence.

As played by Bullock, Gwen is an alcoholic in denial whose latest
bender with boozer boyfriend Jasper (Dominic West) ruins the wedding of
her
sister (Elizabeth Perkins) and lands her in a month-long rehab program
with the requisite gang of struggling drunks and junkies. Newcomer Alan

Tudyk steals his scenes as a gay German rehabber who might've dropped
in from a Berlin performance-art exhibit, and Steve Buscemi aptly
conveys the weary commitment of a counselor who's seen it all. Thomas
has
surrounded Bullock with a sharp ensemble, and the addition of
singer-songwriter Loudon Wainwright III (as a kind of Greek chorus
crooner) is
sublimely inspired.

Certainly no surprises here -- the warring sisters will reconcile, and
at least one rehabber will fail to recover -- but there's ample
pleasure to be found in Bullock's finely tuned performance, and in
Thomas's
inclusion of flashbacks and tangents that add depth and laughter in
just
the right dosage.

__________________________________________________
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++++Message 2931. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Films Part 6 of 6
From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 5:39:00 AM

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Movies on Alcoholism Part 6 of 6

Reviews by mostly non-professionals.

Assembled by billyk. <billyk3@yahoo.com>

with additions by Glenn C.& AAHistory Lovers

PLEASE SEND ALL CORRECTIONS OR COMMENTS DIRECTLY TO:
billyk <billyk3@yahoo.com> (billyk3 at yahoo.com)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Titles beginning with U to Z

Under the Influence 1986

Starring Andy Griffith, Season Hubley, Paul Provenza, Keanu Reeves,
Dana Andersen

This fine film features one of Keanu Reeves first performances. Who
would have guessed he would have become such a big star at the time
this
film came out. Griffith is compelling as Noah a long time alcoholic
with
a long suffering family. His wife basically closes her eyes and denies
everything, one of his son's runs away and becomes a comedian joking
about his dysfunctional family, his daughters become suicidal and his
son
is an alcoholic too. This isn't a happy bunch by any means, but this
film delivers a powerful message about alcoholism and its effect on a
family. Its gritty, unsentimental and pulls no punches. Next to Murder
In
Coweta County, I think this is Andy's most chilling performance. He
definitely doesn't play the sheriff from Mayberry here.

AND

Under the Influence is a TV movie about an alcoholic, scripted by
recovered alcoholic Joyce Rebeta-Burdett. Andy Griffith plays the head
of an
outwardly respectable New England family. Griffith drinks heavily, but
the rest of the family sweeps his addiction under the rug. When
Griffith lands in the hospital, he must come to grips with his illness
-- and
the rest of the family must stop lying to each other and to themselves.

Under the Influence is remarkable not only for the intelligent,
unsensational handling of its subject, must also for Andy Griffith's
convincing portrayal of a New Englander. ~ Hal Erickson

AND

Andy Griffith (Matlock) plays an alcoholic who denies his addiction and

drives his wife and two of his four kids into their own battle with
substance abuse. After he suffers a heart attack, the whole family is
forced to face the reality of their dysfunctional lives. Griffith,
Joyce
Van Patten, Season Hubley, Dana Andersen and Keanu Reeves are excellent

as the self-destructive family. Sharply directed by Thomas Carter
(Miami
Vice), this TV movie offers a sobering portrait of a middle-class
family in crisis. An important social issue drama done with style and
intelligence.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Under The Volcano 1984

Starring Albert Finney and Jacqueline Bisset

Spying this title on a store shelf, one would hope that the mesmerizing

Albert Finney, who appeared in John Houston's 1984 film version, had
done the narration honors. Who else could muster and sustain the
sweaty,
poetic intensity befitting this extraordinary, beautifully written,
teeth-gnashing novel? Set in Mexico on the eve of WWII, the story tells
of
a man in extremis, an alcoholic consul bursting with regret, longing,
resentment and remorse, whose climactic moment rapidly approaches. Nick

Ullett is no Finney, but he comes satisfyingly close. His energy fails
him at times; he has difficulty negotiating some of the straggling
phrases, but, otherwise, he acquits himself with distinction,
particularly
in conveying the subtext and atmosphere.

AND

Against a background of war breaking out in Europe and the Mexican
fiesta Day of Death, we are taken through one day in the life of
Geoffrey
Firmin, a British consul living in alcoholic disrepair and obscurity in

a small southern Mexican town in 1939. The Consul's self-destructive
behavior, perhaps a metaphor for a menaced civilization, is a source of

perplexity and sadness to his nomadic, idealistic half-brother, Hugh,
and his ex-wife, Yvonne, who has returned with hopes of healing
Geoffrey
and their broken marriage.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vital Signs 1986

Starring Edward Asner, Gary Cole

Two women try to rid their doctor husbands, father and son, of
dependencies on alcohol and drugs.

AND

Vital Signs stars Ed Asner and Gary Cole as father and son, both
prominent surgeons. Asner's skills have diminished as his alcoholism
increases. Cole returns to his home town to straighten his dad out.
What no one
knows is that Cole himself is a substance abuser, addicted to morphine.

After several near-disasters and squabbling denials, father and son
make a mutual pact to wean themselves away from their addictions --
with
tragic results. Vital Signs is a better than average "affliction of the

week" TV movie.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Voice in the Mirror. 1958

Starring Richard Egan and Julie London

An artist takes to drink after the death of his daughter. Resists
interventions
by wife and doctor. Finds the strength he needs to stay on the wagon
with
the help of a fellow alcoholic - Male AA-Like person.

and

Richard Egan and Julie London are so realistic together, and Arthur
O'Connell merely devastating in this excellent depiction of the
struggles
of an American alcoholic. The pressures are realistically depicted, and

the struggles vividly felt. The excellent performances never hit a
false note.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

W.C. Fields (Jan. 29, 1880 - December 25, 1946) –

Numerous Movies - 1915 to 1942

Comment (sic.) by Glenn C

These are movie classics from the grand old period. They're still a lot
of fun
to watch today. It was the great era of Mae West, Edgar Bergen and
Charlie
McCarthy, and those other old classics.

Fields (who actually was an alcoholic) played an extremely cynical and
crotchety alcoholic in a lot of the movies in which he appeared.

He died of a stomach hemorrhage. A friend visited him in the hospital
shortly
before his death, and discovered, to his surprise, that Fields was
reading the
Bible. Since Fields had always been an atheist, he asked him what he
was
doing that for, and Fields replied, "I'm checking for loopholes."

A typical Fields line: "Twas a woman who drove me to drink. I never had
the
courtesy to thank her." Another one was: "Whilst traveling through the
Andes
Mountains, we lost our corkscrew. Had to live on food and water for
several
days!"

For those of us who are alcoholics, we can see what is actually going
on, and
it really isn't funny at all. But movie audiences at that time regarded
him as a
comic figure at whom they could laugh heartily, without even a twinge
of
uneasiness. And that in itself is a commentary on that era of American
history,
and the way people thought about alcoholism and drunkenness.

Glenn

see also http://www.imdb.com

billyk

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When A Man Loves A Woman 1994

Starring: Meg Ryan, Andy Garcia, Ellen Burstyn

The previews for When a Man Loves a Woman do this film an injustice.
Heavy on poorly-edited melodramatic sequences, they give little inkling

of the level of emotional honesty attained. Luis Mandoki's film
succeeds
not because it tackles alcoholism, but because it faces up to the
trauma that eats away at the lives of the non-alcoholics

in the family. One failing of the script is that it assumes an unlikely

level of ignorance from its audience. Alcoholism is such a pervasive
social problem that it's hard to accept that anyone likely to see When
a
Man Loves a Woman wouldn't have a better understanding of the disease
than the movie gives them credit for. After all, everything from high
school health classes to Oprah have, at one point or another, addressed

the issue. Unlike AIDS, alcoholism is not a new disease that the public

needs to be educated about.

When a Man Loves a Woman centers on a seemingly-happily married couple.

Michael Green (Andy Garcia) and his wife Alice (Meg Ryan) have, at
first glance, the perfect relationship. But take a peek beneath the
veneer,
and there are problems. Alice is a habitual drinker, and her periods of

sobriety are getting fewer and fewer. Meanwhile, Michael's duties as an

airline pilot take him away from home for weeks at a time, keeping him
ignorant of the extent of his wife's problem. Completing the family
unit are Jess (Tina Marjorino), Alice's daughter by another man whom
Michael has adopted as his own, and Casey (Mae Whitman), the
four-year-old
child of the Greens. The presence of these children, and their
importance to the development of the story, is what elevates When a Man
Loves a
Woman. As potent as some of the scenes between Michael and Alice are,
those featuring Jess or Casey invariably have greater impact. It helps
that both young actresses are believable.

Meg Ryan and Andy Garcia were probably given the lead roles more
because of box office appeal than an ability to bring superior depth to
their
characters. Surprisingly, while neither turns in an exceptional
performance, they are both solid, and each has a few scenes in which
they
shine.

The ending is too facile, and When a Man Loves a Woman may take longer
than necessary to arrive at its resolution. There are moments
throughout when the script is apt to strike a raw nerve with some, as
is often
the case when a "real" issue is probed with any degree of sincerity.
Whatever else it may do, this film does not play it safe, and the risks
it
takes keep the audience engaged by the drama.

When a Man Loves a Woman is about pain. This is not an original topic
for a movie -- especially one about alcoholism -- but the script does a

good enough job establishing the dynamics of the Green family that we
never doubt that the story deserves to be told. The film's poignancy is

its strength, even as occasional didactic tendencies are its weakness.
In balance, the former by far outweighs the latter, making this a
worthwhile picture.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NO MENTION OF ALCOHOLISM IN THE REVIEWS

The following five movies have also been recommended by one or more
members as a movie about alcoholism, but in the available reviews, such
words as alcoholism, recovery and aa are not used.

Life of the Party

On Thin Ice

Sideways

Straight Out of Brooklyn

The Verdict

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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++++Message 2932. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s law course
From: Theron B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 9:47:00 PM

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In Chapter 1 of the Big Book, "Bill's Story", Bill mentions having
taken a "night law course" but nearly fails, then decides that the law
is not for him. Does anyone know what this course was? Was it a
single course or does the term mean a "course of study", like a degree
program? My sponsor is a retired attorney and he's curious. Thanks!

Theron

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++++Message 2933. . . . . . . . . . . . Places of historic interest for AA
members
From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 3:25:00 AM

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Hi Group

Some of us here in Denmark are trying to see if it will be possible
for us to attend the International Convention in San Antonio, 2010.

While we are there we would like to visit some places of historic
interest for AA members.

We are not a study group and not all of us are history freaks, so we
will not spend hours in an archive study old documents. Our primary
interest is to visit places of historic interest that is easy to
digest.

A few years ago I visited Dr. Bobs Home, Mayflower hotel, the
Archives at the Intergroup Office, etc. in Akron and AAWS in New York
and the archives there, which I found very interesting.

I wonder if any of you will help us with some suggestions regarding
historic places to visit.
I will try to make a kind of top 10 of historic AA places to visit in
USA.

I know it is early but travelling to US is relatively expensive so we
better start saving :-)

Warm regards
Bent
_____________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

I would appreciate it if you could send your recommendations straight to
Bent at
his e-mail address in Denmark:

<bent_christensen5@yahoo.com> (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)

And then I think it would be excellent if Bent could use these replies to
put a
list together of what seem to him to be the Top Ten sites for someone
wanting to
see places which played a major role in AA history, and post this as a
message
on the AAHistoryLovers.

I think this would be a valuable service to us all. It's not just people
from
all the other many countries where AA plays such a major role, but people in
the
United States itself who might enjoy seeing such a list. If you're driving
through such-and-such an area of the country, wouldn't it be interesting to
know
that just a small detour would allow you to see something important to all
of
us? Which you hadn't realized could still be seen?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2934. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety
From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 7:06:00 PM

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I know of somebody with about 58 years. Can anyone top this? Tom White

On Dec 11, 2005, at 10:52 AM, Henry wrote:

> Hello There
>
> Could anyone tell me what is the longest recorded length of sobriety,
> in the fellowship.
>
> Henry
>

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++++Message 2935. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety
From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 7:06:00 AM

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There was a man at the International that claimed 62 years.

Diz T.

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++++Message 2936. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2005 7:43:00 AM

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My vote for longest sobriety goes to Chauncey C. of Pontiac, Michigan. I
knew
Chauncey in 1950 when he had nine years. He was at the Toronto Convention
but
didn't sit with the 40 plus group. However, it was noted that he had 63
years.
He is still living up in Pontiac and I spent some time with him earlier this
year.

But Mitch, why do you call long sobriety a "dubious distinction?" It is
interrupted sobriety that really should be called dubious.

Mel Barger

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++++Message 2937. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety
From: philip luppy . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2005 2:51:00 PM

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At the International Convention in Toronto over the Summer, at the
countdown,
one gentleman had 67 years!

Philip

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++++Message 2938. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "Educational variety" cannot be
found in William James
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2005 9:48:00 PM

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A postscript

I think part of the difficulty is that Bill W put quotation marks
around the phrase "educational variety." It appears he is making a
citation when he is actually paraphrasing. The term "educational
variety" was not from James, it was what Bill thought James described.

You can download a copy of Varieties from a number of web sites (it's
a great book but a tough read). If you download a copy, do a string
search on "sudden" and "gradual." You'll find numerous "sudden" and
"gradual" examples given by James for "Varieties of Religious
Experience."

Don't forget that when the Appendix was added to the 2nd printing of
the 1st edition Big Book, its goals was to de-emphasize Bill W's
"white flash" experience in Towns Hospital. Many members thought they
were doing something wrong because they did not have the same type of
experience Bill did (re the narrative in the Appendix).

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2939. . . . . . . . . . . . "Educational variety" and spiritual
nurture
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2005 3:31:00 AM

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Vis-a-vis what Bill Wilson called the "educational variety" of spiritual
experience:

One of the key reasons why James' book on "The Varieties of Religious
Experience" was so widely read, was that there was a fierce debate going on
within various Protestant denominations in the early twentieth century over
the
same basic issue discussed in Appendix II of the Big Book, on "Spiritual
Experience."

Especially in the American denominations which had deep roots in the
tradition
of nineteenth century frontier revivalism, there were some members who
wanted to
insist that no one was "saved" at all who had not had a highly emotional
conversion experience at a revival meeting.

On the other side of this issue, the New England Congregationalist Horace
Bushnell had written a book called "Christian Nurture" in which he argued
that,
in particular, in the case of children brought up within the church by
parents
who were already devoted Christians, there should be no need for that kind
of
dramatic conversion experience. And in fact, if the children were taught
properly within the church, they should grow up never doubting the love of
God,
and never having the kind of fearful vision of an indifferent or punishing
God
which had to be overcome in the conversion experience.

By the 1930's, in the three largest Methodist denominations (who made up a
substantial bloc of American Protestants), the majority had come to the
conclusion that a dramatic conversion experience at a revival was not at all
necessary in order to be saved. They continued to hold revivals, and they
did
not reject the idea that some were genuinely converted in these revival
meetings. But they insisted that this kind of conversion experience could
NOT
be ruled as necessary to salvation.

Methodist ministers and bishops who had graduated from the two most
important
northern Methodist seminaries (Boston School of Theology and Garrett
Biblical
Seminary just outside Chicago) were deeply affected by Horace Bushnell's
idea of
Christian nurture. They began creating a Sunday School literature which
emphasized a loving Jesus and a forgiving Father, and did everything
possible to
counteract the old idea of a punishing or indifferent God, and did
everything
possible to replace the image of a Christ in Judgment sitting on a throne
and
sending the damned off to hell with a stern and unforgiving face (a typical
piece of art in a good many medieval Christian churches) with the image of a
gentle and loving Jesus sitting surrounded by little children.

It was called "the Christian nurture movement."

The Upper Room (which was the standard meditational work in early AA from
the
late 1930's down to 1948) was published by the Southern Methodists, and it
also
very much reflected this view that proper Christian nurture would eliminate
most
of the need for a revivalist conversion experience. The Upper Room was
deliberately written in a way which could make it part of that warm and
nurturing experience.

But there were other American Protestant denominations in the 1930's (and
there still are) where the preachers insisted that people who had not had a
conversion experience at a revival were not saved at all, and could not be
saved.

James' "Varieties of Religious Experience" was used by the Christian nurture
movement as ammunition in their struggle, because in that book one had the
most
famous American psychologist of them all showing that different people
necessarily had different kinds of spiritual experiences, because they had
different psychological makeups, and different kinds of psychological
problems.

On good psychological grounds, there was NO "one spirituality fits all."

As James saw it, some people had to undergo a dramatic conversion
experience.
Others had to undergo a slow "spiritual nurturing" if they were ever going
to
get there at all. James believed that New Thought in all its various forms
(including Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount, Unity Church of Peace, and the
Christian Scientists) had a method that worked extremely well for some
psychological types. But it didn't work at all for others.

The Protestants of that period (who made up a majority of the AA members in
the U.S. and Canada at that time) were already thoroughly familiar with the
revivalist vs. Christian nurture debate.

So Bill Wilson's shorthand reference to an "educational variety" was
instantly
recognizable to them. They understood exactly what he meant by that phrase.
And it made perfect sense (in an AA context) to appeal to James' book, to
avoid
getting involved in the many bitter ecclesiastical disputes still going on
among
some of the Protestant denominations. James seemed a nice "neutral" source
to
refer to, so that AA wouldn't get pulled into all that anger and fighting in
the
churches.

He coined the phrase "educational variety" in part because there was no
clear
single technical term used in James' book to describe that kind of spiritual
approach, even though it was the most important part of the book for most of
the
Christians who read it. You had to call it something, and anybody who knew
the
book would understand what Bill Wilson meant. Bill W. may have avoided using
"spiritual nurture" (which would have been more instantly recognizable to
many
of the feuding Christians) in order to distance AA a little further from
those
bitter Christian disputes about the "correct" interpretation of Bible verses
like John 3:3 (where it says that no one will see "ten basileian tou theou"
who
has not been "gennethe anothen"). AA most certainly did not wish to be
involved
in that kind of fighting.

But at another level, referring to this approach as "educational" (in spite
of
the growing influence of John Dewey's educational theories in America during
that period of history) may still have been partially misleading. Some
people
in the U.S. still today think of "education" in terms of rote memorization,
and
mastering intellectual theories, and students writing down notes on lectures
delivered by teachers who are "the experts" and can never be questioned
about
whether their ideas are correct, and can never be asked to give visible
proof
that their ideas actually work in real practice.

I personally think that the idea of spiritual "nurture" in some ways better
captures the real heart of the main alternative to the "instant conversion"
experience. People in the AA group who play the role of good fathers and
mothers, good older brothers and sisters, good uncles and aunts, and good
grandfathers and grandmothers, lovingly nurture the newcomers, who are (at
the
spiritual level) still like tiny babies. They do it by loving them, hugging
them, picking them up when they fall, and showing them how to live by the
example of their own lives.

Like good parents taping one of their six year old children's crayon drawing
on the front of the refrigerator, they praise them for their accomplishments
(taking them where they really are), and make them feel good about
themselves.
They are the cheerleaders, the confidence givers. They are the ones who do
the
equivalent of standing in the audience applauding their ten year old
children's
violin performances, or cheering at their sixteen year old children's
baseball
or football games.

But that is just quibbling over words, which never got anybody sober or
brought them to true serenity. I think that it works just fine, exactly the
way
the words are written in the Big Book, and that everybody ends up
understanding
exactly what is really meant. And I am sure that James himself would have
heartily approved of Bill Wilson citing his work in support of the vitally
important message that is being given in Appendix II on "Spiritual
Experience"
at the end of the Big Book. That appendix shows a clear understanding of one
of
the major points James was trying to make in his book.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2940. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety
From: Des Green . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2005 2:47:00 AM

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Hi,
The longest continued sobriety followed by a relapse ? A member of an
Austrialian group - 29yrs.

Best wishes Des

Mel Barger <melb@accesstoledo.com> wrote:
My vote for longest sobriety goes to Chauncey C. of Pontiac, Michigan. I
knew
Chauncey in 1950 when he had nine years. He was at the Toronto Convention
but
didn't sit with the 40 plus group. However, it was noted that he had 63
years.
He is still living up in Pontiac and I spent some time with him earlier this
year.

But Mitch, why do you call long sobriety a "dubious distinction?" It is
interrupted sobriety that really should be called dubious.

Mel Barger

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++++Message 2941. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O.
From: David Grant . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 5:56:00 PM

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My first sponsor worked with Paul in a professional capacity in the early
90's. Paul as writing for publications to be published by Hazelton. My
first sponsor, an author by trade, edited much of the material for Paul.

A close friend of mine here in NH got sober in CA at Paul's home group as
well. He was a member of the CA group for many months before he became aware
that Paul was a Big Book Story Author. I had asked him what it was like
being at meetings with Paul.... and he fondly said something to the effect
that he was "a drunk like the rest of us....."

That's my 2 cents!

David G.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Rogers" <at1with@adelphia.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Paul O.

> Dr. Paul and his wife Maxine were both active in Orange County California.
I had the pleasure of hearing him speak many times. They also had a sober
couples retreat focused on the steps and traditions. He was a lovely man and
very available and sponsored a lot of men.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2942. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O.
From: mackleyhome@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 7:05:00 PM

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I was attending The Southeast Louisiana Roundup in Convington, LA in May of
2000 when they announced that Dr. Paul had died Friday night at his home in
California. Max was reported to be doing well, and asking for everyone's
prayers.
Mackley

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2943. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O.
From: Alex H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 11:02:00 PM

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> I am looking for information on Dr. Paul Oehlinger. His
> story is in the third and fourth edition of the Big Book. The
> same story with different titles. I appreciate any information
> on this. Thank you, Jane B.

I have never met Dr. Paul, nor spoken to him, but I felt his
effect.

If you wish to talk to people who knew him, you might find
someone at the Triangle Club, 1655 N. Berkeley Ave., Pomona, CA.
The phone number is ( 909 ) 623-9070.

I will now ramble about what I remember...

I lived in Orange County, CA during a critical period when Dr.
Paul's influence came into the county. I will now describe what
I observed. Take it for what it is worth.

Dr. Paul was promoting early morning Attitude Adjustment
meetings at the Triangle Club. I learned about these meetings
from guy named Jerry B. (I remember his last name if that's
important to you). Jerry was newly sober (a year or so) and came
from the Triangle Club into Orange County. Jerry was talking up
these early morning meetings that Dr. Paul had going. I thought
Jerry was nuts, but he was enthusiastic and I liked him right
away. I attached myself to Jerry since I felt he was going to
self-destruct if he didn't have an anchor and I needed a
project. I was an "old hand" having something like 3 to 4 years
under my belt. :-) Since I now have 28 years I will leave it to
you to do the math.

Jerry had also become a born-again Christian having associated
himself with the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove so AA folks
in Orange County were a little afraid Jerry was trying to
"Christianize" AA with the Attitude Adjustment meetings. The
meeting format did not follow what I would call a "normal" AA
meeting format for Orange County. Attitude Adjustment meetings
tended to focus on the "prayer and meditation" portions of the
program and had a lot of readings.

In any case we started these early morning meetings in the
community room of a bank. As I recall the bank was in a shopping
center at the south end of the Nixon Freeway (Imperial Hwy south
of Yorba Linda, south of the freeway heading into the canyon).
My memory is faded. I believe that area is called Villa Park or
Santa Ana Canyon or something like that. You can check out the
meeting schedule at the following web site but I don't see the
old meeting place listed there any more.

http://www.oc-aa.org

Meetings started at 6:00 AM on weekdays but on weekends we
relaxed things a bit and started at 6:30 AM. I still see a lot
of early morning meetings in the AA schedule. Before Jerry B.
showed up, there were none at all. Jerry was a good salesman. He
was a salesman of some sort.

So the first Attitude Adjustment meeting in Orange County began
in that community room next to the bank. Jerry was a big
huggable bear of a guy with a big smile and real friendly so he
talked the guys at the old Fullerton Club to let him run this
Attitude Adjustment meeting one time at an evening meeting just
to show them how it went. He was hoping to get more early
morning meetings started.

(The club no longer meets there. They had to move the Fullerton
club when the landlord decided to do something else with the
building. Call Fullerton Alano Club (714) 992-0988 and ask them
about the old club location if that's important to you.)

So Jerry wanted to run the meeting from the pages we had copied
in a binder, but I nixed that idea. We were already fighting the
"Christianizing" accusation pretty hard and people would be
suspicious that we were slipping in Christian prayers so I
suggested that we pull all our readings directly from the "Big
Book", the "12 and 12" and the "24 Hour" book (because that is
where we copied them from originally). The 24 Hour book was not
AA approved literature, but it was ubiquitous in Orange County.
No one was going to squawk if we read from it. We knew that.

So Jerry called up volunteers to read the various sections from
these books as the meeting went along. You should have seen the
amazement in their eyes. I swear... if you want to hide
something from an alcoholic, put it in an AA book. :-) These
guys acted as if this was the first time they had ever heard
these words of prayer and meditation.

From that point on, Attitude Adjustment meetings spread like
wildfire through the county. I was amazed. I doubt that Jerry
started all of them. He was holding down a job while trying to
hold together a marriage and raise his children and volunteering
at the Crystal Cathedral. He couldn't have had that much time. I
can only surmise that there was a real need for this type of
meeting and once started, others carried the message and put out
the effort all on their own.

Apparently there is still a need for the meetings. They are
still going strong in Orange County.

I am Alex H. I no longer live in Orange County but I was well
known at the Friendship Club (714) 637-9860. I used to be
buddies with Barefoot Bob, Wino Bob and Charlie M. was my
sponsor before he blew his brains out at 31 years sober. There
is bound to be someone there who still remembers me and maybe
Jerry B. Certainly they still remember Charlie. He only had one
arm and was the patriarch of the club. When he blew his brains
out, it sent reverberations throughout the AA community as you
might imagine. I learned a lot from that man... like what NOT to
do as I accumulate long-term sobriety. I am still learning from
that man... G-d forgive me for saying so in this way. I loved
that man, but he made a mistake. I hope I have learned from it.
Thank you Charlie. Hardly a week goes by when I don't think of
you and hardly a month goes by when I don't mention your name.

Thank you for listening to my rambling.

Calling the Triangle Club would be my first move in any case.

Alex H.

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++++Message 2944. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr. Paul O.
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 8:13:00 AM

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Hi Jane

There is much info available over the web on this good man.

Do a Google search using: "Dr Paul O" +AA

Go down the list of returned web pages and enjoy.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of IIdog
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 1:34 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Paul O.

I am looking for information on Dr. Paul Oehlinger. His story is in
the third and fourth edition of the Big Book. The same story with
different titles.
I appreciate any information on this.
Thank you,
Jane B.

IIdog@prodigy.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2945. . . . . . . . . . . . A list of harms
From: alandobson1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 6:15:00 AM

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I've been trying to find out where the practice of writing a harms to
others list in step four came from. I recently recieved an Email saying
that this seems to be something only done here in England. I know in
Step 8 the book tells me i have my list from Step 4. But Step four says
nothing about a list of harms, at lest not in a clear cut way.

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++++Message 2946. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why AA Left the Oxford Group
According To Bill W. and Its Implications for Us.
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2005 10:23:00 PM

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Hi James,

Thanks for pointing this out. I took quite a bit of interest in the Oxford
Group and came to see that they were essential for our beginning but not for
our
growth in the future. Bill never stopped giving them due credit.

Another reason for the separation, of course, was the serious public
relations
problem created when Frank Buchman (the Oxford Group
founder) had an ill-starred newspaper interview in 1936 which seemed to
present
him as a Hitler sympathizer. This became the Oxford Group's biggest problem
and
really tarnished their standing for a long time. The newspaper article was
unfair, in my opinion, but it did demonstrate how easily the wrong choice of
wording can get an interviewee into trouble. I think this also helped teach
Bill about the danger of getting involved in controversial issues.

Bill also told me that Buchman got into trouble with the Catholic Church
and,
as he put it, "This would have kept a lot of Irishmen from getting sober!"

I will say that I met four oldtime Oxford Groupers who went back to the
1930s
in their program (one of whom is still living). They were wonderful people.

Mel Barger

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++++Message 2947. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Why AA Left the Oxford Group
According To Bill W. and Its Implications for Us.
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2005 11:16:00 PM

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Hi Jim

I have yet to run across any writing by Bill W where he spoke harshly
or critically of anyone and he was true to form in AA Comes of Age.
There was, however, an awkward side to Bill W and Lois separating from
the Oxford Group.

Bill and Lois started attending OG meetings in NY in December 1934
when Bill was discharged from Towns Hospital. Dr Bob, and his wife
Anne, joined the OG in Akron, OH about 2 years prior to Bill and Lois.

In March 1935 an OG meeting was started at the home of T Henry and
Clarace Williams. It was organized by Henrietta Sieberling with the
encouragement of her friend Delphine Weber. The meeting was started
specifically to try to help Dr Bob with his drinking.

In his historic trip to Akron, OH in 1935, when Bill called the Rev
Walter Tunks (an active OG adherent) he was referred to OG member
Norman Shepherd who, in turn, referred Bill to Henrietta Sieberling.
Bill introduced himself to her over the phone as "a member of the
Oxford Group and a rum hound from New York." Henrietta viewed Bill as
the answer to her prayers for Dr Bob.

It all started well with OG meeting in Akron and NY. The alcoholics
were called the "alcoholic squads" of the respective OG meetings.
However, over time the situation turned awkward.

In early 1936 Bill W's efforts in working only with alcoholics were
criticized by NY OG members. Similarly, in Akron, T Henry and Clarace
Williams were criticized as well by OG members who were not supportive
of their efforts being extended primarily to alcoholics.

In August 1936 Frank Buchman (the founder of the OG) and the OG
experienced an international public relations disaster. A NY World
Telegram article by William H Birnie, quoted Buchman as saying, “I
thank heaven for a man like Adolph Hitler, who built a front-line of
defense against the anti-Christ of Communism.” Although the remark was
taken out of context in its reporting, it would plague Buchman’s
reputation for many years. It marked the beginning of the decline of
the OG.

In the late spring of 1937, leaders of the OG at the Calvary Mission
ordered alcoholics staying there not to attend meetings at Bill W's
home on Clinton St. Bill W and Lois were criticized by OG members for
having “drunks only” meetings at their home. The Wilson’s were
described as “not maximum” (an OG term for those believed to be
lagging in their devotion to OG principles).

In August 1937, Bill and Lois stopped attending Oxford Group meetings.
The NY AAs separated from the OG.

In 1938 nations of the world armed for World War II and Frank Buchman
called for a “moral and spiritual re-armament” to address the root
causes of the conflict. He renamed the Oxford Group to "Moral
Re-Armament" (also called "MRA").

In May 1939, Led by pioneer member Clarence S, the Cleveland, OH group
met separately from Akron and the Oxford Group at the home of Albert
(Abby) G. This was the first group to call itself "Alcoholics
Anonymous." The Clevelanders still sent their most difficult cases to
Dr Bob in Akron for treatment.

In October 1939 (AA Comes of Age viii says summer) Akron members of
the “alcoholic squad” withdrew from the Oxford Group and held meetings
at Dr Bob’s house. It was a painful separation due to the great
affection the alcoholic members had toward T Henry and Clarace
Williams.

In November 1941, the Rev Sam Shoemaker left the Oxford Group (then
called Moral Re-Armament) and formed a fellowship named "Faith at
Work." MRA was asked to completely vacate the premises at Calvary
House. Shoemaker’s dispute with Buchman was amplified in the press.

In a July 1949 letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker, Bill W wrote “So far
as I am concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA. It
was our spiritual wellspring at the beginning.” Bill later expressed
regret that he did not write to Frank Buchman as well.

In a July 1953 Grapevine article titled “A Fragment of History - the
Origin of the 12 Steps” Bill W identified the Oxford Group as one of
the 3 main channels of inspiration for AA’s 12 Steps. Bill identified
the other 2 main channels of inspiration for the 12 Steps as William
James and Dr Silkworth.

In “AA Comes of Age” (pg 39) Bill wrote “Early AA got its ideas of
self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for
harm done, and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and
directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and from
nowhere else.”

In regard to the Steps, Jim B suggested the phrases “God as we
understood Him” and “Power greater than ourselves” be added to the
Steps and basic text. Bill W later wrote “Those expressions, as we so
well know today, proved lifesavers for many an alcoholic.”

Jim B (whose Big Book story is “A Vicious Cycle”) started AA in
Philadelphia and helped start AA in Baltimore together with Fitz M.

Cheers
Arthur

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++++Message 2948. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Groups and/vs "12 step rooms"
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 6:25:00 PM

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Comments from Merton M., Jon M., and John B. on an AA group which holds
several
different meetings every week.

___________________________

From: "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)

From your post I get the gut feeling that the Oneness (Unity) of which
you are part is far more valuable than packing a voting platform with
many (more than one). AA Service is an upside down pyramid. The
Chairman is on the bottom and serves others above him rather than
himself. Since each group is autonomous anyway there is no "power" to
be obtained by more votes anyway. By the fact that your group
functions in such Unity your One Vote is probably more harmonious and
valuable than a contingent of of power seeking vote padders.

Thanks for the post. It was refreshing to hear.
All the Best,
-merton

___________________________

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net> (serenitylodge at
bellsouth.net)

Almost all groups around here have two or three meetings per week, which
meet at
the same location ("room") and are the same "group" . . . Just meeting at a
different time, on a different day. Some have two meetings(perhaps three) a
day.
Same group, usually attended by different people because of work or other
conflicts, but with the same core of recovering folk carrying the "load" of
service commitments.

I don't think this is particularly unusual, if I understand your question
correctly.

Jon

___________________________

From: "John B." <burcjo@yahoo.com> (burcjo at yahoo.com)

Ric,

I think that's an excellent observation regarding the
imbalanced representation. It's also refreshing to
know there are folks out there interested. I believe
this same problem is happening all over the country
and it's a big concern of most everyone I've talked to
from around the country. I think the problem and the
resolution lies in the homegroup. A home group is
responsible for showing each of us how to conduct
ourselves by all the principles of our program.

The challenge with these large clubhouses and large
12-step rooms, is that most of the real leaders of
those places aren't able to attend every single
meeting; therefore the real message gets a little
"watered-down."

I heard Tom I. from N.C. talk about the very issue of these large groups.
Groups
that meet 2 to 4 times a week (MAX) are groups
that have a chance. Anything more than that is asking
for this kind of trouble.

I'd be interested in know what you find in the way of a solution, because I
think there are Several out there looking for the same
one.

John B

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++++Message 2949. . . . . . . . . . . . Length of sobriety in the UK
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2005 11:35:00 AM

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In the UK [England, Scotland, Wales, and northern Ireland], Dartmoor Bill
has
been continuously sober since 1953.

Laurie A.

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++++Message 2950. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety
From: Christian Proctor . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 9:34:00 PM

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From Christian P., Mike B., and Mitchell K.
_______________________________


From: Christian Proctor <christianpage132@yahoo.com>
(christianpage132 at yahoo.com)

The longest I'm aware of is James Houck - sober 12/12/1934. He didn't
officially switch over to AA from the Oxford group until a number of years
later.

Christian Proctor
_______________________________

From: "Mike Breedlove" <mikeb415@knology.net>
(mikeb415 at knology.net)

Here is a possiblity. Ez E, who now lives in Montgomery, got sober in
Florida in 1942. Peace, Mike
_______________________________

From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

Mel Barger wrote: //But Mitch, why do you call long sobriety a "dubious
distinction?" It is interrupted sobriety that really should be called
dubious.//

It wasn't the dubious but the distinction I was
referring to. Continuous sobriety is important to show
the newcomer THAT it works. The quality of sobriety
and what one has in their lives shows the newcomer
(and everyone else) HOW it works.

People tend to forget that Bill & Bob had just
over/under 4 years of sobriety when the BB was
written. The rest of those who wrote the book had an
average of about 18 months. I know people with
long-term sobriety whos message and life I certainly
wouldn't want to emulate. I also know people with a
lot shorter term of sobriety who are more on fire than
I ever was.

How good you are as an AA historian is not a matter
of how many books you have written or how large your
website is. Quality and quantity are not always the same
thing.

There is also a very well known woman in AA history
who had long-term sobriety, then had a set-back and
came back. The fact that her sobriety was interrupted
by her choice of what my sponsor called "resigning and
resuming," doesn't take away from her accomplishments
and it obviously didn't influence those who determined
which stories remained in the Big Book.

I have great respect for those with multiple decades
of sobriety. I remember when I attended Lois'
"long-termer's day" at stepping stones. I was allowed
to stay because I had driven one of the participants
there. I had about 7 years at that time and those who
were invited came into AA pre 1950. I felt like a kid
in a candy shop. Many of those whom I met there are no
longer with us..people whose names has popped up in
these forums. Maybe I should have used another word
other than dubious. Sorry

I can also remember sitting at a meeting where a woman
was celebrating her first year sober. The guy sitting
next to me was at his first meeting and I was holding
him to ease some of the shaking. When the woman got up
to pick up her coin, he said.."wow, I don't know if I
could ever make it to one-year"

Long-term sobriety really is relative.

Mitchell

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++++Message 2951. . . . . . . . . . . . Cosmic Consciousness, "educational
variety," and spiritual nurture
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2005 6:44:00 AM

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Hi Glenn,

Thank you for this explanation of the "educational variety" of spiritual
experience. I have printed it out and saved it in my copy of "The Varieties
of
Religious Experience."

I remember going to hear an evangelist in 1939 who warned that if we didn't
"get saved" that night we might be killed on the way home and spend eternity
being continuously burned. What had I done at age 14 to merit such
punishment!
No wonder Robert Green Ingersoll had a field day attacking this kind of
teaching.

Bill Wilson also called his experience "illumination" and told me it was
explained in "Cosmic Consciousness" by Richard Maurice Bucke. I wrote an
article for The Grapevine about it, which you can find on my website:
www.walkindryplaces.com.

All the best,
Mel Barger

______________________________________

Two notes from the moderator:

ROBERT GREEN INGERSOLL was a well-known nineteenth-century American exponent
of
agnosticism, free thought, and humanism, who was famous all over the U.S.
for
his attacks on organized religion.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._Ingersoll and many other sites on
the
internet.

The novelist Mark Twain wrote many things during the same general period
expressing the same kind of anti-religious and skeptical views, e.g. his
hilarious fictional account of the building of Noah's Ark, which forces you
to
see the impossibility, really, of getting all of the species of animals on
the
planet earth onto a single boat. You can see his views coming out even in a
novel like Huckleberry Finn if you look carefully at some of the little
boy's
remarks about religion, prayer, and what people along the Mississippi river
called "Christian civilization." When the offer was made at the end of the
novel to take Huckleberry in and "civilize" him, he lit out of there on the
spot, saying simply (but eloquently) "I been thar before."
______________________________________

MEL B.'S ARTICLE ON COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS

http://www.walkindryplaces.com/Cosmic.htm

Cosmic Consciousness

An Examination of the Profound Spiritual Experience that Illuminates and
Changes
Many Lives

The AA Grapevine, Volume 32, Issue 12, May 1976

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS started with a flash of lightning and a drop of
Brahmanic
splendor. Co-founder Bill W. writes of his 1934 spiritual experience, which
led
to the establishment of AA:

"These were revolutionary and drastic proposals, but the moment I fully
accepted
them, the effect was electric. There was a sense of victory, followed by
such a
peace and serenity as I had never known. There was utter confidence. I felt
lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountaintop blew through and
through. God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me was sudden
and
profound." (Alcoholics Anonymous, page 14)

The event Bill describes--often called his "hot flash"--is unusual in a
number
of ways. For one thing, it has apparently not happened to most other AA
members.
For another, it was so brief that it could easily be interpreted as a
temporary
hallucination, particularly since it happened to a man under treatment for
alcoholism. It was not preceded by a period of saintly devotion or other
religious exercise; actually, it came to a person who was rather agnostic.
But
the experience had a purpose; AA would probably not have been launched
without
it.

Bill's "flash" has come to other people in various times and places and even
has
a technical name. It is called "cosmic consciousness."

The term has an occult sound, but there is nothing mysterious or
otherworldly
about it. It has been the subject of serious study. The man who made the
term
rather widely known was a Canadian physician, Richard Maurice Bucke, whose
theories were later discussed by William James in The Varieties of Religious
Experience (a book vital to AA's early development). Bucke's Cosmic
Consciousness was first published in 1901 and has gone through more than
twenty
editions. Though ridiculed by some, the book has an attraction for those
interested in the mind and in the human, capacity for spiritual development.

Bucke, significantly, was a medical doctor, not a religious mystic. If
anything,
he may have been hostile to organized religion and was most likely regarded
as
an atheist or agnostic. By conventional standards, he seemed unlikely to be
interested in spiritual subjects and certainly unqualified for a "spiritual
experience." He had, however, some unusual interests. For one thing, as
medical
superintendent of a mental institution, Bucke had seen the destructive
effects
of hallucination and delusion, and was therefore skeptical of the unusual,
yet
fascinated by it. He also had wide-ranging literary and artistic interests.

In any case, Bucke had an open mind on many subjects. And this helped make
him a
candidate for the startling experience that became the germ of his book.
Here's
how Bucke describes it (as quoted in The Varieties of Religious Experience):

"I had spent the evening. . .with two friends, reading and discussing poetry
and
philosophy. We parted at midnight. I had a long drive in a hansom to my
lodging.
My mind, deeply under the influence of the ideas, images, and emotions
called up
by the reading and talk, was calm and peaceful. I was in a state of quiet,
almost passive enjoyment, not actually thinking, but letting ideas, images,
and
emotions flow of themselves, as it were, through my mind. All at once. . .I
found myself wrapped in a flame-colored cloud. For an instant I thought of
fire,
an immense conflagration somewhere close by in that great city; the next, I
knew
that the fire was within myself. Directly afterward there came upon me a
sense
of exultation, of immense joyousness accompanied or immediately followed by
an
intellectual illumination impossible to describe. . .I did not merely come
to
believe. . .I saw that the universe is not composed of dead matter, but is,
on
the contrary, a living Presence; I became conscious in myself of eternal
life.
It was not a conviction that I would have eternal life, but a consciousness
that
I possessed eternal life then; I saw that all men are immortal; that the
cosmic
order is such that without any peradventure all things work together for the
good of each and all; that the foundation principle of the world, of all the
worlds, is what we call love. . .The vision lasted a few seconds and was
gone;
but the memory of it and the sense of the reality of what it taught has
remained."

One could be skeptical of an experience thus described. It sounds a great
deal
like an hallucination, perhaps even temporary insanity. Bucke admitted that
the
"subjective feelings" of insanity and cosmic consciousness might appear
similar.
But the effects were completely different. A person suffering from insanity
tends to lose self-restraint, self-control, and perhaps all morality. In
cosmic
consciousness, these faculties are enormously increased. Some examples he
gave
as proof were Gautama Buddha, Jesus, Isaiah, Paul, Plotinus, and Dante.

Bucke also believed that the cosmic sense (as he sometimes called it) is not
limited to a favored few, but is a natural sequence in the evolution of the
human mind. As the human race progresses, an increasing number of
individuals
will receive the cosmic experience, until finally it will be as natural to
everyone as our present state is now. It will also bring an era of universal
happiness and peace, since persons in the cosmic state would no longer harm
others (or even be capable of thinking harmful thoughts), Bucke concludes.

William James tended to agree with Bucke, although many of the cases cited
in
The Varieties of Religious Experience lack the factor of intense
"illumination."
Many are individuals who found a vast store of spiritual grace without
having an
abrupt spiritual experience or "hot flash." Nonetheless, most found new hope
and
a new life, and James argues strongly that religious experience can be a
powerful agent in resurrecting sick and defeated individuals.

Where does AA fit into this framework? For one thing, Bill W.'s experience
seems
to be an authentic case of cosmic consciousness. Bill always believed that
it
was, and his writings sometimes use the term "illumination" to describe it.
The
experience was very real to him, and he never felt that it was an
hallucination
or a delusion.

But it did frighten him at first, and seemed too good to be true. He
explains
his first thoughts:

"For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend, the doctor, to ask if I
were
still sane. He listened in wonder as I talked.

"Finally he shook his head saying, 'Something has happened to you I don't
understand. But you had better hang on to it. Anything is better than the
way
you were.' The good doctor now sees many men who have such experiences. He
knows
that they are real." (Alcoholics Anonymous, page 14)

Dr. William D. Silkworth, Bill's physician, was an unusual person; it is
hard to
imagine many doctors responding as he did to Bill's account. Alcoholics are
often people of excess, and it's not uncommon to hear of a. person who "used
to
get drunk on alcohol and is now drunk on religion."

Bill's new beliefs, however, were not an alternate means of escape. He used
them
to develop a new life for himself and thousands of others. But he was to
learn
that cosmic consciousness could be elusive and temporary. He explains in
other
writings his first belief that alcoholics needed a "hot flash" similar to
his in
order to recover. Later, he saw that such a subjective experience wasn't
necessary for recovery, that a gradual spiritual "awakening" often led to
far
more spiritual growth in the long run.

Bill also recognized that an experience of illumination would not solve all
problems from that point onward. Later in his own life, he was afflicted
with
depression and personal troubles that often drove him to the brink of
self-destruction. But he never lost his sense of the presence of God. His
doubts
were about himself as a going human concern, not about the reality and the
love
of God.

Since Bill, by his own frequent admission, lacked the saintly qualities
usually
deemed necessary for great spiritual elevation, we might wonder why he was
"chosen" for this remarkable experience. The answer seems to be that he was
the
right person at the right time with the right idea. If the Higher Power
intended
to find and develop an individual with the necessary qualities for the
founding
of AA, it's hard to think of a better choice. Bill had drive, organizing
ability, creativity, and above all the capacity to learn from his mistakes.
When
the cosmic sense came, it was not necessarily because Bill W. was an
unusually
worthy person; God is no respecter of persons. It was more a case of highly
intelligent personnel selection.

Bucke theorized that all people have several states of consciousness. The
most
basic is simple consciousness, which human beings share with the animals. At
a
higher level is self-consciousness, which only human beings seem to possess.
At
the highest level is the cosmic sense. Individuals may have such a sense
with
varying degrees of intensity. Bill's experience, for example, lasted only a
few
seconds. Others have had similar states of mind lasting for days. The time
may
come, however, when all people--even children--will share the cosmic sense
at
all times.

It is this, Bucke believed, that will bring about a true paradise on earth.
As
he saw it, cosmic-conscious persons would in reality be a new race, making
all
things new. The isolated individuals who have touched the cosmic sense in
the
past have been the spiritual leaders of the present race, he believed. They
are
also "the first faint beginnings of another race, walking the earth and
breathing the air with us, but at the same time walking another earth and
breathing another air of which we know little or nothing, but which is, all
the
same, our spiritual life."

It is not the business of AA to promote such a development in the world at
large, and few of us could serve as living examples of great spiritual
growth.
Our responsibility is simply to demonstrate that spiritual principles are an
effective answer to alcoholism for many individuals.

At the same time, it is good to know that we are not working in a spiritual
vacuum. Our work may be on a modest scale, but it could be part of a larger
movement now building a better and brighter world. The time may come when a
new
Bucke writes another book to show how the cosmic sense healed a sick and
warring
world. One chapter should be reserved for Bill W.'s hot flash. Its brief
burst
of dazzling light has shone in thousands of hearts and minds, and the world
is a
far better place because of it.

M. D. B.
Toledo, Ohio

Copyright ©1944-2004 The AA Grapevine, Inc.
All Rights Reserved. Reprints by permission only.

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++++Message 2952. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W.''s law course
From: David Grant . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2005 7:32:00 AM

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Hi Theron,

In the book Bill W. by Francis Hartigan, this is addressed on pp. 33-34.
Bill attended Brooklyn Law School in 1924.

Per what is covered in the book, Bill actually completed the course of
study, having to retake final exams as he was too drunk the first time they
were offered. Oddly, a requirement for graduation was attendance at the
commencement ceremony. Bill refused to addend and therefore did not
graduate.

Cheers,

David

----- Original Message -----
From: "Theron B." <theronb@yahoo.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 9:47 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W.'s law course

> In Chapter 1 of the Big Book, "Bill's Story", Bill mentions having
> taken a "night law course" but nearly fails, then decides that the law
> is not for him. Does anyone know what this course was? Was it a
> single course or does the term mean a "course of study", like a degree
> program? My sponsor is a retired attorney and he's curious. Thanks!
>
> Theron
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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++++Message 2953. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W.''s law course
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2005 8:13:00 AM

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Bill Wilson & Law School

Bill writes in the Big Book (page 2): "I took a night law course...I
studied economics and business as well as law...Potential alcoholic that I
was, I nearly failed my law course. At one of the finals I was too drunk to
think or write...By the time I had completed the law, I knew the law was not
for me."

Dan Demarest, a former Stepping Stones board member (Stepping Stones is
where Bill & Lois lived the last half of their life) and a lawyer himself,
was curious about Bill's almost-law career and contacted Brooklyn Law School
for more information. He writes:

"I spoke on the telephone yesterday with Dean Traeger of Brooklyn Law
School, who had before him the School's file on Bill Wilson's academic
career as a law student in the early 1920's.

"He stated that, in Bill's first year at law school, his grades varied
sharply from brilliant (90 in Contracts, 89 in Torts) to mediocre (77 in
Agency and in Partnerships). In his second year, his grades were ever more
up and down, including some high marks and also a 67 and a 68; which were
flunking grades. Both of these failed courses Bill took again and passed.

"In February of 1923, Bill flunked a course on Equity and left the Law
School. His file shows that he returned in September, when all his courses
were third year courses except for Equity, which he repeated and passed.
"He was scheduled to graduate in June of 1924, except that he failed a
course called "Executors and Administrators" (relating to wills, estates and
trusts).

"He again returned in the fall and began repeating the Executors and
Administrators course, but left the Law School finally on November 20, 1924
without, according to Dean Traeger's records, again taking the exam for the
Executors and Administrator's course.

"My surmise is that in later years Bill remembered that he had more than
once made up for and successfully passed a test previously failed but that
he did not recall that he had not gotten around to retaking this last
examination."

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Theron B.
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 9:47 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W.'s law course

In Chapter 1 of the Big Book, "Bill's Story", Bill mentions having
taken a "night law course" but nearly fails, then decides that the law
is not for him. Does anyone know what this course was? Was it a
single course or does the term mean a "course of study", like a degree
program? My sponsor is a retired attorney and he's curious. Thanks!

Theron

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2954. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W.''s law course
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2005 6:53:00 AM

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My understanding is that Bill actually completed most of the courses
necessary for a law degree but never bothered to pick up his diploma. That
always seemed strange to me, because a law degree is a good credential even
if one doesn't go into the field. My suspicion is that Bill really would
have had to earn a few more credits in order to get the actual degree and
just didn't bother to do it. It's strange that he didn't thinik the law was
right for him, as he showed great skill in his written communications and
would have been a whiz at understanding and interpreting legal documents.
Mel Barger

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++++Message 2955. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety
From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2005 10:51:00 AM

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There is one dignified AA elder statesman here in Illinois who is coming up
on
his 60th AA anniversary.

Paul M. of Riverside, Illinois, also is a past Chicago Area 19 Delegate.

One bit of AA history that had never happened before or since:
With his selection as a Panel 11 Delegate to the General Service Conference,
Paul was one of two Panel 11 Delegates elected to represent Chicago AA! The
1962
Conference sent both home with the request for some kind of voted unity
between
the two largest service offices, Metropolitan Chicago Central Office and
West
Suburban Intergroup.

Paul eventually served Area 19 in 1963, after much embarrassment for
Illinois
AA. He was not reluctant to accept his election by West Suburban AA while
Metropolitan (the "legitimate" Area Service Office) had continued a kind of
political lockout of what it called its wayward groups...such was the strife
in
Chicago from 1954-1972.

Remarkably, growth continued for all entities in regular
geometric-progression,
AA style.

Paul, when he gives an AA talk, emphasizes working the Steps, and heavily
re-emphasizes revisiting and continually reworking the Steps. He is known,
like
many others with longtime sobriety, for the practice of holding Fifth Step
sessions to hear as many AAs, who care to show up, present a Fourth Step
inventory. This kind of large Home Group activity occurs around the
fellowship
("pockets of enthusiasm" locations?), and I consider Paul a pioneer in
putting
it together since the late 1940s through today.

Best to all of you,
Rick Tompkins
Northern Illinois Area 20 Archives Chair
ricktompkins@comcast.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2956. . . . . . . . . . . . Except When to Do So ...
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2005 8:22:00 AM

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Step 9 points out that harm can be done in making amends. (The
Oxford Group term was restitution.) It clearly states that this
must be avoided.

[Step 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to
do
so would injure them or others.]

Was this something new introduced by Alcoholics Anonymous or had any earlier
spiritual programs given a similar warning?

Where did A.A. get the second half of Step Nine? Was that in
the word-of-mouth program prior to the writing of the Big Book?

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++++Message 2957. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Places of historic interest for
AA members
From: Cloydg . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2005 6:35:00 AM

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Bent, I found the Alano Club in Minneapolis quite interesting. It's located
at
2218 1st Street. There are quite a few historical documents, various
pictures
of Bill and Dr. Bob and the chairs they sat in when they visited there. It's
an
old home, possibly Victorian or at least a, "Turn of the Century", style of
home. There's a story as to whom owned it and how it became an Alano Club
but
I've forgotten it. Perhaps someone here in AAHL from that area could fill
that
bit in? Anyway, it's a must see as far as I'm concerned!

Love and service, Clyde G.(Bakersfield, CA)

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++++Message 2958. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety
From: John Pine . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2005 3:31:00 PM

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From my research into the A.A. Back to Basics organization, which has its
own
board of directors and publishing arm and is linked to the current
incarnation
of the formal Moral Re-Armament and Oxford Groups, James Houck never
identifies
himself as a member of A.A.. Nor does he call himself an alcoholic when he
gives
talks on recovery.

Houck was never considered to be part of the "alcoholic brigade" of the
Oxford
Groups and would not have thought twice about "switching over" to Alcoholics
Anonymous. I don't doubt that he hasn't had a drink since 12/12/1934, but my
town (Richmond, VA) is burgeoning with folks who have been teetotallers far
longer than that.

John P.
The Jaywalkers Group
Richmond, VA

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++++Message 2959. . . . . . . . . . . . Did Bill ever experiment with
cocaine during his depression phase of sobriety?
From: jocisoo7@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2005 1:16:00 AM

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I was talking to a member today about this subject. A book he claimed is
published that mentioned Bill W. experimented with Cocaine during his double
digit bout with depression (after his known sobriety date).

Any comment from our knowledgeable group?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2960. . . . . . . . . . . . Clinton St.
From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2005 8:07:00 AM

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Hi All--

We have heard information about what has happened to historic AA
locations: Williams St., Dr. Bob's in Akron, Bill's birthplace, Dr.
Bob's childhood home, 24th St. Clubhouse, Mayflower Hotel-- even
Kessler's Donut Shop!

But my question is: what has happened to 182 Clinton St.( in Brooklyn,
I believe)? (Where Ebby visited and brought the message) Is it torn
down? Offices? Still a private home?

Thanks!

Happy Holidays,
Cindy Miller
Philadelphia, PA

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++++Message 2961. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Did Bill ever experiment with
cocaine during his depression phase of sobriety?
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2005 8:41:00 AM

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Bill experimented with LSD and Vitamin B3 (Niacin). It is well
documented in the book "Pass It On."

Bill's experience with depression is also well documented in "Pass It
On" and other books (he had terrible episodes of depression in his
teenage years, which contributed to his not graduating from Burr and
Burton, and well into his adult years, reputedly up to around 1955).

The member you talked to might benefit from reading the book.

Cheers
Arthur

________________________

In answer to the question asked in message 2959 from
<jocisoo7@aol.com> (jocisoo7 at aol.com)

Did Bill ever experiment with cocaine during his depression phase of
sobriety?

I was talking to a member today about this subject. A book he claimed
is published that mentioned Bill W. experimented with cocaine during
his double digit bout with depression (after his known sobriety date).

Any comment from our knowledgeable group?

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++++Message 2962. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: A list of harms
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2005 8:27:00 AM

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Step 8 explicitly states that we "Made a list of all persons we had
harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all." As you pointed
out, the Big Book suggests that it came out of the 4th Step inventory.

The Big Book is great for defining the spiritual substance of our 12
Steps but I don't believe it was designed to specifically define the
"procedure" of the Steps (i.e. the "how" and "when") down to the
lowest detail. This type of "procedure" best comes from the pool of
prior member experience with the Steps (e.g. Sponsors and meetings
oriented to studying the Big Book, 12&12 and Steps).

In terms of what is recommended in the UK for the "list of harms" it
strikes me as a very wise and good common sense practice for covering
all that should be covered in a thorough "housecleaning."

I was taught that the 3 categories in the inventory example in the Big
Book (Resentments, Fear and Sex) by no means cover all that should be
covered. For example, suppose you stole money and it wasn't based on
resentment or fear or sex (or drunkenly crashed an automobile into
someone's property, or injured someone, etc., etc.). Those things
certainly should not be omitted from an inventory. So how do you get
them in it? A "list of harms" done to others seems like a very
effective way of doing it.

It might sound like heresy to some, but I don't view the Big Book as
the be-all and end-all on the Steps (otherwise Bill W would not have
written the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions). The Big Book was the
first book written about the Steps, not the only book written about
the Steps.

I was taught to make an additional part of the 4th Step inventory (and
I do it in the 10th Step as well) that included those things I needed
to repair (i.e. make amends for) that didn't fall under the 3
categories. There is substantiation for this in both the Big Book and
12&12:

Big Book P 13 Bill’s Story - We made a list of people I had hurt or
toward whom I felt resentment.

Big Book P 70 How It Works - We have listed the people we have hurt by
our conduct, and are willing to straighten out the past if we can.

Big Book P 76 Into Action: We have a list of all persons we have
harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we
took inventory.

Big Book P 76 Into Action: As we look over the list of business
acquaintances and friends we have hurt, we may feel diffident about
going to some of them on a spiritual basis.

12&12 p 32 Step 2 Essay - In no deep or meaningful sense had we ever
taken stock of ourselves, made amends to those we had harmed, or
freely given to any other human being without any demand for reward.

12&12 p 80-82 Step 8 Essay - We might next ask ourselves what we mean
when we say that we have "harmed” other people. What kinds of "harm"
do people do one another, anyway? To define the word "harm" in a
practical way, we might call it the result of instincts in collision,
which cause physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual damage to
people. If our tempers are consistently bad, we arouse anger in
others. If we lie or cheat, we deprive others not only of their
worldly goods, but of their emotional security and peace of mind. We
really issue them an invitation to become contemptuous and vengeful.
If our sex conduct is selfish, we may excite jealousy, misery, and a
strong desire to retaliate in kind.

Such gross misbehavior is not by any means a full catalogue of the
harms we do. Let us think of some of the subtler ones which can
sometimes be quite as damaging. Suppose that in our family lives we
happen to be miserly, irresponsible, callous, or cold. Suppose that we
are irritable, critical, impatient, and humorless. Suppose we lavish
attention upon one member of the family and neglect the others. What
happens when we try to dominate the whole family, either by a rule of
iron or by a constant outpouring of minute directions for just how
their lives should be lived from hour to hour? What happens when we
wallow in depression, self-pity oozing from every pore, and inflict
that upon those about us? Such a roster of harms done others--the kind
that make daily living with us as practicing alcoholics difficult and
often unbearable could be extended almost indefinitely. When we take
such personality traits as these into shop, office, and the society of
our fellows, they can do damage almost as extensive as that we have
caused at home.

Having carefully surveyed this whole area of human relations, and
having decided exactly what personality traits in us injured and
disturbed others, we can now commence to ransack memory for the people
to whom we have given offense. To put a finger on the nearby and most
deeply damaged ones shouldn’t be hard to do. Then, as year by year we
walk back through our lives as far as memory will reach, we shall be
bound to construct a long list of people who have, to some extent or
other, been affected. We should, of course, ponder and weigh each
instance carefully. We shall want to hold ourselves to the course of
admitting the things we have done, meanwhile forgiving the wrongs done
us, real or fancied. We should avoid extreme judgments, both of
ourselves and of others involved. We must not exaggerate our defects
or theirs. A quiet, objective view will be our steadfast aim.

Whenever our pencil falters, we can fortify and cheer ourselves by
remembering what A.A. experience in this Step has meant to others. It
is the beginning of the end of isolation from our fellows and from
God.

Cheers
Arthur
__________________________

This question was raised in Message 2945 from
<alandobson1@yahoo.co.uk> (alandobson1 at yahoo.co.uk)

I've been trying to find out where the practice of writing a harms to
others list in step four came from. I recently received an Email
saying that this seems to be something only done here in England. I
know in Step 8 the book tells me i have my list from Step 4. But Step
four says nothing about a list of harms, at lest not in a clear cut
way.

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++++Message 2963. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A list of harms
From: Soberholic . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2005 3:34:00 PM

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Is there a "list of harms" which is one of the fourth step lists? Responses
from soberholic, Lester G., rowek, denezmcd, ccp28para4, and tigreo.
___________________________

This question was raised in Message 2945 from
<alandobson1@yahoo.co.uk> (alandobson1 at yahoo.co.uk)

"I've been trying to find out where the practice of writing a harms to
others
list in step four came from. I recently received an Email saying that this
seems
to be something only done here in England. I know in Step 8 the book tells
me I
have my list from Step 4. But Step four says nothing about a list of harms,
at
lest not in a clear cut way."
___________________________

From: Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com>
(soberholic at yahoo.com)

Hi Alan - greetings from Finland :-)

A.A. Big Book p. 76:

Now we need more action, without which we find that ”Faith without works
is
dead.” Let’s look at Steps Eight and Nine. We have a list of all persons
we have
harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we took
inventory.

Yours truly,
soberholic
___________________________

From: lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>
(lgother at optonline.net)

Good question Alan. On the bottom of page 70 in the Big Book it says: "We
have
listed the people we have hurt by our conduct". Thank God for good
sponsorship,
because left to my own I would have passed right by that instruction. I was
also
instructed to list my harms the same way I listed my resentments, fears and
sex
inventory one column at a time. So I have to blame my sponsor for showing
me.
Hope this helps. And I thought I was unique.

In Service
Lester G
New Jersey
___________________________

From: "Kimball" <rowek@softcom.net>
(rowek at softcom.net)

From my personal experience - - When taking the 4th step from the Big Book
under
the care and guidance of a loving sponsor, I arrived at page 68 "Now about
sex.....". In some circles, this portion is referred to as the "sex
inventory."
After reading that section I went to my sponsor and and proclaimed that I
did
not have to do this since I did not have sex. He instructed me to read out
loud
the section or paragraph that specified exactly what was to be written down
on
paper. I went and got my Big Book and read him this paragraph from page 69:

We reviewed our own conduct over the years past. Where had we been selfish,
dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse
jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what should we
have
done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it.

He looked at me and smiled. He asked me where did it say I was to write
about
sex? He pointed out that it has asked me to list those I had hurt by my
conduct
(sexual or otherwise). Then he asked me the hard question, "Son, in your
drinking, did you hurt anyone?" The answer was of course "yes." So I was to
list
all those I had harmed, by what ever means, sexual, physical, financial,
etc.
That was the custom in Las Vegas in the 60s and 70s. I have since had
everyone I
have sponsored do the same. I simply refer to it as the conduct inventory.

Hope this helps
___________________________

From: <denezmcd@aol.com>
(denezmcd at aol.com)

I also waited till step 8 to list harms I had done others that I had no
resentment, fear, or sex problem with. That was 25 years ago. Today there
are
some forms that list harms while doing your 4th step but there are no clear
cut
instructions to do so .... Hope this half way answers you question.

Your friend in service,
Dennis
___________________________

Also from:

"C. Cook" <ccp28para4@yahoo.com>
(ccp28para4 at yahoo.com)

"tigreo" <tigreo@yahoo.com>
(tigreo at yahoo.com)

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++++Message 2964. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Clinton St.
From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2005 10:57:00 PM

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The Brooklyn brownstone house on Clinton Street is privately owned, but many
AAs
continue to visit the neighborhood, especially Delegates to the General
Service
Conference, who usually get an informal tour of AA historical sites in NYC
before the Conference. Towns Hospital still stands, too, or at least the
building is there. If any of those walls could talk!

On Clinton Street, when Canadian citizen Bill A. was hired as a GSO Staff
Member
around 1996, his real estate search ended happily when he and his wife
purchased
the brownstone next door!
He always shared that for him it was a great epiphany.

For anyone going up to NYC, an appointment to tour Stepping Stones, the
Wilsons'
home 35 miles north of Manhattan in Katonah, is a terrific idea for a
one-day
trip, and take your best camera...

Spend a few days' research in the AA Archives at GSO, too, but let the
Archives
Staff specifically know what you're looking for. AA historians and
archivists'
Research Card stays on active file.
The primary, current contact is Assistant Archivist, Michelle M.

Best to you, too, Cindy, and all in this egroup,
Rick, Illinois

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++++Message 2965. . . . . . . . . . . . Early Florida AA
From: Ken WENTZ . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2005 1:06:00 AM

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Hi sober friends, my name is Ken W. I was looking for anyone who would have
info
on ANY group in the state of Florida that is still meeting today that
pre-dates
March of 1945.

Roy Y, an Army Sgt from Texas, came to Fla. that year & started meetings In
Tampa /St. Pete. One of those groups still meets today & was told that they
are
the oldest CONTINUOUS meeting group still in existence today in Florida.

Any info would help, as our archives are currently being reviewed and have
found
to contain many letters from Bobbie B. back & forth to the groups Secy.
referring to contacting Roy for Big Book info & meeting times for the area.
The
letters starting in March '45 all the way through till the early '50's are
very
interesting.

Thanks for my sobriety .... Ken W
301 group Clearwater Fla.
________________________________

Note from moderator:

Any other information on how AA began in Florida would be appreciated. Has
anyone written a history of early Florida AA?

We Indiana folks -- Frank N. (Syracuse IN), Beth M. (Lafayette IN), John S.
(Fort Wayne IN), Bruce C. (Muncie IN), Bob E. (Evansville IN), Neil S.
(Fishers
IN) and others -- are attempting to do an overall history of how AA spread
over
the Hoosier state. You can see our progress so far at
http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html

If enough people are willing to get together and work cooperatively, a good
deal
can be done. But I do not believe that a single person, working totally by
himself or herself like the Lone Ranger, can write a worthwhile history of
AA
for an entire state. It's just too big a job.

On early Florida AA history in particular, Richmond Walker, the author of
Twenty-Four Hours a Day, not only played a major role in starting the first
intergroup in Boston, but also in Daytona Beach, Florida. He is a major
figure
in the history of AA in that state.

I would be especially interested in any information about the date at which
the
intergroup in Daytona Beach was begun, and any other information about
Rich's
work in Daytona Beach and his work in Florida AA in general.

Notice how often Rich stresses in the big print sections at the top of each
page
in the 24 Hour book, the importance of being loyal to your group, and
supporting
your group, and participating actively in the AA fellowship. I think he
himself
would have regarded all the quiet personal work he did to help AA grow and
spread in Florida as more important than the books he wrote.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2966. . . . . . . . . . . . Research in the New York GSO
Archives
From: rrecovery2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2005 1:18:00 AM

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Spend a few days' research in the AA Archives at GSO, too, but let the
Archives Staff specifically know what you're looking for. AA historians
and archivists' Research Card stays on active file.
The primary, current contact is Assistant Archivist, Michelle M.

********************************************************************

To spend a few days researching at the Archives, you need to fill out a
request which is reviewed by the Trustees Archives Committee. It meets
three times a year--the next time in January.

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++++Message 2967. . . . . . . . . . . . Dartmoor Bill, longest sober British
member
From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2005 3:33:00 AM

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For readers over the pond, the UK is indeed the United Kingdom of Great
Britain
and Northern Ireland. Great Britain comprises England, Scotland and Wales,
which
are covered by the British GSB.

AA's in Northern Ireland and Eire have their own board.

Dartmoor Bill is (as far as is known) the longest sober British member. He
earned his sobriquet because he served time in Dartmoor - a notoriously
tough
jail up on the moors in Devon, England - when he was drinking.

Peace and Light,
Laurie A.

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++++Message 2968. . . . . . . . . . . . History of AA in Israel
From: jbackman1@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2005 4:15:00 AM

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Hello group ---

This is not so much a post about history as a post about where to find
history.

I am heading to Israel next week for my son's Bar Mitzvah. My sixth sobriety
(God willing) falls on December 27, and I will be celebrating at a meeting
in
Tel Aviv. Then I'll be attending meetings in Jerusalem the following few
days.

Does anyone out there have any info on AA History in Israel, or the place or
places to go in Israel to find such information?

Thanks. I love this group (and AA of course).

Jon B
Bloomington, Illinois

P.S. Also, if anyone from the group needs/wants anything from AA there, I
will
have several days there with time to try to locate it.
___________________

Moderator's note: PLEASE E-MAIL JON DIRECTLY, if you have any AA requests of
that sort, at

<jbackman1@aol.com> (jbackman1 at aol.com)

There is no simple and easy way for the moderator to forward personal
messages
when they are sent to the AAHistoryLovers group address. Unlike a personal
email
system, the Yahoo group system has no "forwarding" button.

Thanks!

And Jon, you've made the promise that we will celebrate our rescue from the
house of bondage "next year in Jerusalem," come true in a new and extremely
moving kind of way. Mazel tov!

Glenn C.

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++++Message 2969. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early Florida AA
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2005 11:50:00 AM

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Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Early Florida AA

Hi sober friends, my name is Ken W. I was looking for anyone who would have
info on ANY group in the state of Florida that is still meeting today that
pre-dates March of 1945.

Excerpt from: Unpublished manuscript of "AA World History" (1985) by Bob P.

Florida

The first A.A. contact in Florida was probably a loner in Daytona Beach who
first wrote the New York office in November 1939. Then in 1940 Frank P., a
member from New York living in Miami, became the A.A. contact there. And the
wife of Joe T. wrote to New York concerning her alcoholic husband.
Separately, a Roger C. also wrote New York and was put in touch with Joe T.,
and both of them were in touch with Frank P. With the appearance of two new
recruits, Charlie C. and Carl C., in December, organized meetings in Miami
got under way. A series of articles on A.A. in the newspaper helped bring in
others. A group was formally organized in April 1941. By July, it had ten
members. In August 1942, Bill W. visited Miami and reported a membership of
45 with two meetings a week. Bill and Lois W. visited again in May '44. A
club and an intergroup were going by 1946. New groups at that time included
Miami Beach, Northside, Coral Way and Hialeah.

A group began in Ft. Lauderdale in '44 by Buck B. In '45, more groups
elsewhere in the state were started: Pensacola, St. Petersburg, Clearwater,
Lake Worth and Gainesville. The following year new groups appeared in Cocoa,
Delray Beach, Ft.Myers, Hollywood, Lake Wales and Ocala.

The group in Lake Worth was named the Palm Beach county group. Stan L. and
Hazel 0. from West Palm Beach attended the group and in 1947 a meeting for
women began in May in Palm Beach. The West Palm Beach group held its first
meeting on August 5, at the odd Fellows Hall. They ran an ad in the
classified section of the Palm Beach Post and Times. In 1949, clubrooms were
opened. December 1940 also saw the beginning of A.A. in Jacksonville.

Commander Junius C., who had apparently gotten sober in California through
the Big Book, was transferred to the Jacksonville Naval Air Station. He went
looking for a prospect that December and found Tom S. -- who was to become a
real pioneer in A.A. service, Delegate from North Florida on Panel 1,
Regional Trustee 1962-66, and chairman of the oldtirners' committee that led
to the establishing of the A.A. Archives. Tom rounded up five of his
drinking cronies -- among them, Charlie P., Bruce H. and Hugh C. -- and they
met at his house for the first A.A. meeting in Jacksonville. In April '41,
Tom persuaded the Jacksonville Journal to publish an article on A.A.

Bruce H. had even more ambitious plans. He started a radio program on A.A.
sponsored by the Gulf Life Insurance Co. It was a huge success, and Bruce
approached the Prudential Life Insurance Co. with the idea of sponsoring it
nationwide. This helped bring Bill W. down for a visit in early 1942, during
which he and Tom S. were able to convince Bruce of the error of his ways.
Twenty-five people attended a dinner given in Bill's honor at the Seminole
Hotel.

A.A. thrived in Jacksonville until there are now 60 groups in and around the
city, holding well over a hundred meetings a week. Tom S. remained active
and was still working with newcomers at the time of his death in 1982 with
over 41 years of continuous sobriety.

In the spring of 1942, a William D., who had gotten sober in A.A. in
Chicago, was transferred to Tampa, Florida, and wanted to start a group. His
wife, Helen, wrote the New York office, and the D.'s were listed as a Tampa
contact. Helen also ran an ad in the local paper. Unfortunately, Bill D.
soon died of pneumonia. Tampa's first A.A. meeting was held November 1943
through the efforts of a nonalcoholic pharmacist, Dr. J.K. R. The pharmacist
's brother, Ralph R., who lived in Gainesville, Georgia, had found sobriety
in Atlanta A.A. Dr. R. attended Atlanta A.A. with him several times,
becoming so enthusiastic about what he saw that he sent to the New York
office for literature. He and, his brother returned to Jacksonville to hold
the first meeting there.

Roy Y. arrived a month later. This was the same Roy Y. who had sobered up in
Texas, helped get the first A.A. group going in Los Angeles, and lived the
A.A. program as a lone member while stationed in Alaska. Now Roy was
stationed at Drew Field, an Army Air Corps base in Tampa. Upon contacting
Dr. R., Roy immediately began work on prospects. One name was a Jack D.,
who, when contacted, replied, "I don't need your program, but I'll tell you
the name of a man who does -- badly!" The name was that of Ernest K. who
became Roy's first recruit. The two of them formed the nucleus of A.A. in
Tampa. In January '44 they acquired their first woman member, Alleen E., and
by April they had ten members in the group and a permanent meeting place at
Frankfurt and Tyler streets. A letter to the New York office said, in part,
"Roy is like an anxious hen with a flock of awkward chicks." Roy secured the
support of the city's leading psychiatrist, who has helpful in reaching the
rest of the medical profession. In May, Bill and Lois W. paid a three-day
visit to Tampa and spoke at an open meeting at the Chamber of Commerce
Building.

Samuel E. and wife, an A.A. couple from East Orange, New Jersey, who had met
Bill W., moved to Orlando in 1944. There they were put in touch with Dave
A., who was looking for help. After meeting with the E.'s several times,
Dave wrote to New York asking how properly to conduct an A.A. meeting. The
group grew slowly. Sometimes Dave A. and Ernie 7., from Winter Park, were
alone. But by '46, the group was large enough to have a meeting place of its
own in an office building where the room was reached by climbing 30 steep
steps. The members joked, "If you made the steps, you will probably make the
program." A second group was started in 1952 at the Lamar Hotel by the
owners, Larry and Jackie K. Larry kept one room at the hotel for drying out
newcomers. As he was crippled and had difficulty mounting the famous steps,
he started to hold meetings at the hotel. Louise A. remembers that in the
late '40's and early 50's, it was not unusual for some of the Orlando
members to drive 60 miles to Daytona Beach, 80 miles to Tampa, or even 150
miles to Jacksonville to attend A.A. meetings or gatherings - and that was
before Interstate highways.

Longtime Orlando A.A. members tell of Mac, a defrocked Episcopalian priest,
who was hired as full-time secretary at the Intergroup office. A compelling
speaker, he would rouse the audience with, "I found God to save my soul, but
it was A.A. that saved my ass." Once, on a radio show, he fielded call-in
questions for four straight hours with great communicating skill. His long
counseling sessions were popular -- particularly with young women. Then one
day, Mac skipped town, leaving the young women sadder but wiser, the
treasury about $400 poorer thanks to a forged check, and the Intergroup
without its office machines. "Mac was such a good con artist, many of us
couldn't believe he was a phony," says one of the members. Word went out to
other Intergroup offices to beware. (Years later Mac turned up in Hyannis,
Massachusetts, as a drug and family counselor at project HELP, using an
assumed name. Confronted with his Orlando crime, he claimed protection under
the statute of limitations.)

Basia and Joseph H. have a special place in Orlando A.A. history. As a pilot
in the Air Force, Joseph traveled worldwide and tells poignant stories of
A.A. encounters in Labrador, Japan, Germany and elsewhere. The H. 's moved
to Orlando in 1969 and began holding Traditions sessions in their home. Each
monthly session was a three - to four - hour discussion of one Tradition
with a review session at the end of twelve months. The meetings were still
being held 16 years later, but on a weekly basis. The H's also attempted to
carry the A.A. message into the Black community, through talks to Black
church groups.

Orlando now has over 40 groups with about 100 meetings a week.

In South Florida, the South Miami group was founded in 1952. The Arcadia
group began in '50. The Islamorado group on the Upper Keys was founded in
'54 by Eddie S., who had a real estate office near U.S.1 where A.A.s from
Miami would stop for coffee on their way south. As the group grew, it moved
to the Methodist Church annex. In '58 the members who lived farther north
broke away to form the Upper Keys group which eventually met at the Coral
Isle Church on Plantation Key. The Key West Fellowship group began in June
'69. A women's group, called the Ocean group, was started in '78 when some
women from other groups took a meeting to the home of Mavis B., who had been
injured in an auto accident.

Florida A.A. has always benefited from the influx of sober members from
other parts of the country as they migrated to the sun belt. Just as the
state has been one of the fastest growing in population, so has A.A. in the
state. In 1955, Florida had 128 groups with about 2,400 members. In 1985, it
reported 1,363 groups and its estimated A.A. membership had climbed to
22,230!

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++++Message 2970. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of AA in Israel
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2005 11:55:00 AM

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Jon wrote
Does anyone out there have any info on AA History in Israel, or the place
or places to go in Israel to find such information?

Excerpt from: Unpublished manuscript "AA World History" (1985) by Bob P.

Israel

As early as 1956 an A.A. group of eight members existed in Israel. It
stemmed from a female loner who had sobered up through correspondence with
G.S.O. New York and reading the Big Book and other literature. Nothing
further is known until the mid-'70's when three groups were formed: Shalom
group in Jerusalem in '75, Tel-Aviv in '76, and North Israel group in '78.
The Tel-Aviv group was particularly active, with participation from Canadian
A.A.'s serving with the U.N. forces. The Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem groups each
met twice a week in both English and Hebrew. Among the growth problems for
A.A. in Israel was the lack of literature in Hebrew and the practice of
Customs officials' opening mail containing A.A. literature, thus threatening
the recipient's anonymity.

At an Anniversary Round-Up in '79, there were 40 participants, but this
included individuals from Al-Anon, O.A., professionals and visitors. In
1985, Israel A.A. reported over 60 members in four groups.

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++++Message 2971. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Did Bill ever experiment with
cocaine during his depression phase of sobriety?
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2005 2:33:00 PM

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There is no such book. It sounds like he's thinking of Sigmund Freud.
There are some websites that might be making such claims. According
to these sources Bill made Hef look like a statistical failure in the
art of love. One site claims they had to stake him out at meetings if
a pretty newcomer gal came strolling into the meeting. No doubt she'd
magnetically lock onto Bill at once making his guardians job an
exercise in utter futility. The site called it "founder watch"!
Perhaps the women couldn't help but fantasize about Bill in ...
Swimming Apparel!! Think about that for a moment!!! Then again maybe
the gals were only interested in the Coke. Maybe that made him
depressed. Which of course made him more attractive to more newly
sober women.

If this actually gets posted and you have a Nag Hammadi or
Oxyrhynchus papyrus fragment like situation 1,000 years from now and
all thats left of AA history is a shard of a CD with your's and my
letter embedded on it then this will become "the truth".

AA history is very difficult because even when we have the original
material in front of us its written by newly sober alcoholic's with
their own agenda. (and fears) (and egos). With time the recounting of
the stories becomes further and further from the actual record.
Hindsight becomes Rosy and then they die. Then someone says someone
said a mysterious book said they were using Coke in addition to the
lysergic A and the ritual sex at the early meetings/seance
gatherings. And this brought balance, truth being towards the middle.
Thank God for Lois and her diary.

Well this was more fun than just saying, ummm No to the inquiry.

All the Best!
-merton
----------------------------------------------------------------

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jocisoo7@a... wrote:
>
> I was talking to a member today about this subject. A book he
claimed is published that mentioned Bill W. experimented with Cocaine
during his double digit bout with depression (after his known
sobriety date).
>
> Any comment from our knowledgeable group?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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++++Message 2972. . . . . . . . . . . . Father Martin''s Chalk Talk
From: Joseph Tandl . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2005 1:44:00 AM

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On 12/12/05, billyk <billyk3@yahoo.com> (billyk3 at yahoo.com) wrote:

//Chalk Talk (Year unknown) by Father Joseph Martin .... if you can get your
hands on this movie, do it.//

Does anyone know how I could get my hands on it (I am in Canberra,
Australia)? Watching this movie was the 12th Step that led to my 25 years of
sobriety (to date!). Now, I would like my son(s) and sponsees to have an
opportunity to see it ...
--
Cheers, Joseph
61 + 2 + 6161 7891
tandlj@gmail.com
(tandlj at gmail.com)

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++++Message 2973. . . . . . . . . . . . Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2005 9:38:00 PM

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This is a beautiful piece of research on the survival rate of alcoholics in
AA, to which Dr. Ernest Kurtz recently pointed me. I believe we all could
learn
some valuable things from a study of it.

Glenn Chesnut, Moderator
______________________________

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui
ds=1\

6340455&dopt=Abstract [24]

Alcoholics Anonymous Careers:

Patterns of AA Involvement Five Years after Treatment Entry

Kaskutas LA, Ammon L, Delucchi K, Room R, Bond J, Weisner C.

BACKGROUND:: Most formal treatment programs recommend Alcoholics Anonymous
(AA) attendance during treatment and as a form of aftercare, but we know
very
little about treatment seekers' patterns of AA involvement over time and how
these relate to abstinence.

METHOD:: This paper applies latent class growth curve modeling to
longitudinal
data from 349 dependent drinkers recruited when they were entering treatment
and
were re-interviewed at one or more follow-up interviews one, three and five
years later, and who reported having attended AA at least once.

RESULTS:: Four classes of AA "careers" of meeting attendance emerged: The
low
AA group mainly just attended AA during the 12 months following treatment
entry.
The medium and high AA groups were characterized by stable attendance at the
second and third follow-ups -- at about 60 meetings a year for the medium
group
and over 200 meetings per year for the high group, followed by slight
increases
for the medium group and slight decreases for the high group by year five.
The
declining AA group doubled its meeting attendance postbaseline, to almost
200
meetings during the year following treatment entry, but by year five they
were
only attending about six meetings on average.

Decreases in AA meetings did not necessarily signal disengagement from AA;
at
the five-year follow-up, a third of the low AA group and over half of the
declining AA group said they felt like a member of AA. Activities other than
meeting attendance, such as having a sponsor, otherwise paralleled the
meeting
careers, but social networks were similar by year five.

Rates of abstinence by year five (for the past 30 days) were 43% for the low
AA group, 73% for the medium group, 79% for the high group and 61% for the
declining group. Rates of dependence symptoms and social consequences of
drinking did not differ between the groups at year five.

CONCLUSIONS:: The prototypical AA careers derived empirically are consistent
with anecdotal data about AA meetings: some never connect; some connect but
briefly; and others maintain stable (and sometimes quite high) rates of AA
attendance. However, contrary to AA lore, many who connect only for a while
do
well afterwards.

From the Alcohol Research Group (LAK, LA, JB, CW), 2000 Hearst Avenue, Suite
300, Berkeley, CA; University of California (LA, LAK), Berkeley, School of
Public Health, Berkeley, CA; Department of Psychiatry (KD, CW), Box 0984,
University of California, San Francisco, 401 Parnassus Avenue, San
Francisco;
Center for Social Research on Alcohol and Drugs (RR), Stockholm University,
Stockholm, Sweden, Kaiser Permanente Division of Research (CW), Oakland, CA.

PMID: 16340455 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
______________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

This is clearly a very useful and insightful study.

I should also note that these researchers who are people do good and
dependable work. In particular, Robin Room (Professor and Director of the
Centre
for Social Research on Alcohol and Drugs, Stockholm University, Sweden) is a
real master at identifying the various subtle ways that statistical data can
be
distorted and selected to give false conclusions. If Room gives you data,
you
may be sure that he has eliminated all of the misleading distortions, and
that
the data accurately reflect what is actually going on.

Many of the observations in their findings pass the "reality test." They
match
up fairly well with what AA members actually observe happening with their
own
eyes in numerous individual cases, certainly here in my part of the American
upper Midwest, but also (as the article points out) in other parts of the
world
too. Other findings were surprising to me. People who come to AA meetings
for a
while and then disappear, do not always go back to drinking and destroy
themselves. I know of some cases of that sort, but apparently there are far
more
of them than I had imagined. Enough of what they learned in AA sticks with
them,
to enable some of them to continue to stay away from the bottle even five
years
later. Apparently the power of the AA program can be even greater than we
sometimes suppose.

This particular set of data is particularly important, I believe, for three
reasons:

-----------------------------------

(1) It does 3 year and 5 year follow up studies, to determine the LONG TERM
survival rate among alcoholics who attend AA meetings. All too many of the
available studies (like the infamous and totally misleading Rand Report)
were
based on only 9 month or 18 month follow ups. In a serious study of
something
which was supposed to be a new way of treating cancer, one would not be
trumpeting claims of being able (sometimes) to arrest a certain type of
cancer,
until one had studied the 3 year and 5 year survival rates.

[As a side note: If one had a type of cancer which had a 40% mortality rate
--
which is about right if we look at the number of untreated alcoholics who
die
before age 65 -- and one could show that 79% of people who took a certain
kind
of treatment program totally seriously, and did everything that the doctors
suggested sincerely and enthusiastically, were not only still alive 5 years
later but still had the cancer totally arrested, we would call that a major
medical accomplishment. And that is what this data shows. AA works extremely
well for people who seriously work the program.]

-----------------------------------

(2) These data are also extremely important because they make it clear that
the spurious and false claims that "modern AA" is only 1% to 3% effective in
getting people sober, has to be nonsense. If one can talk alcoholics into
going
into treatment and then attending AA meetings for a full year, then even if
they
completely or nearly stop attending AA meetings after that year is over, 43%
even of this group will have their alcoholism still basically arrested (will
not
have had a drink in the past thirty days) even when surveyed five years
later.

[As another side note, this data also corroborates something which was noted
by Sgt. Bill S. when he first developed the Lackland Model for alcoholism
treatment during the early 1950's, a highly successful method which strongly
emphasized active AA involvement along with the psychiatrists. On the basis
of
Sgt. Bill's carefully assembled data, even the Air Force personnel who
refused
to identify with the AA people, and quit going to AA meetings as soon as
they
were allowed to, still noticeably benefitted from being forced to attend AA
meetings while they were in the treatment program. See
http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html and http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html and
http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html]

-----------------------------------

(3) And perhaps the most important thing of all about this particular study,
is that we finally have someone seriously looking at what all long time AA
people know. You cannot make a serious study of how well AA works, unless
you
take into account how hard the people involved are actually working their
programs. The survival rate at the five year mark was almost double for
those
who averaged around four AA meetings a week, as opposed to those who had
just
played around with the program for a while and had then stopped coming to
meetings.

[And again, as a side note, I think it would be good to see other studies
measuring the effectiveness of other aspects of AA involvement. This
research
was a study of item Two (Meetings) in the Seven AA Tools of Recovery, see
http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html . This was a list put together by a group of
good old timers, of what they believed were the most important things that
newcomers had to do in order to get sober and stay sober. This data
demonstrates
that they were right on target with item Two. So what would happen if we did
a
careful statistical study, for example, of the effectiveness of item Six
(Service) in the Seven AA Tools of Recovery? My own observation is that
those
good old timers were right on target there too, and that almost 100% of the
members who become deeply involved in AA service work (by doing things like
helping put on dances and picnics, serving on useful committees, and being
active members of the twelfth step call list) are still sober after five
years.
But could this be corroborated by a group of researchers with these kinds of
excellent research skills? That would be very useful data.]

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2974. . . . . . . . . . . . Length of sobriety in Canada
From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2005 6:36:00 PM

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We have a Mel H. that just had his 55 year party He has done a great deal of
work in our area, Owen Sound, Ontario, Canada.

Joe

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++++Message 2975. . . . . . . . . . . . Alano Club at 2218 First St. in
Minneapolis
From: Cloydg . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/16/2005 12:29:00 AM

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This was forwarded on to me by a fellow member here in the AAHL. I thought
you
all might enjoy a little AA History in Minneapolis!

Hi Cloydg,

2218 1st St., was home to a man named Cadwallander Washburn from Maine. He
was one of 5 brothers who were involved in the milling business here in
Minneapolis. The name of the company was Washburn Crosby, which was the
forerunner to the company that became General Mills. The house was bought by
a
bunch of drunks from the family in 1940 for $20,000 Dollars. They have been
holding meetings there ever since. It is the worlds oldest Alano Club in
operation today. There about 42 active squads; as we call them, holding
meetings in the building at the present time. The membership is currently
about
300.

Greg M.
___________________________

Note from the moderator:

This was the place where the well-known Minneapolis AA beginners classes
began,
which were eventually turned into a book called The Little Red Book (the
most
famous guide to the twelve steps ever written).

See http://hindsfoot.org/mnclass1.html for a copy of the mimeographed
Instructor's Outline from Minneapolis, Minnesota, which was put together by
Ed
Webster for the beginners classes which he gave there, beginning in May 1942
at
2218 First Avenue South. It comes from the collection of Jack H.
(Scottsdale,
Arizona), who has all of Ed Webster's papers. This is the earliest known
material for A.A. beginners lessons. It is the ancestor of The Little Red
Book
(An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program)
which Ed Webster published in 1946 with Dr. Bob's help and support.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2977. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early Florida AA
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2005 9:08:00 PM

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Hi Ken,

[This reply begans on topic and then takes off in a stream of thought.
Thanks for bearing with me.]

One note that might be worth looking into. Wallace Van Arx, aka Van,
aka Wally, married Kathleen P. shortly after her divorce from Hank in
1940. (Lois had signed an affadavit against Hank for Kathleen's use at
trial, but having second thoughts they left NJ for the V.'s at Bog
Hollow near Monsey, NY to avoid having to testify). Anyway, Wally was
the defacto treasurer for Works Publishing Co. for a short period due
to the fact that he was a major contributor and salesman of the
subscription agreement shares. (this is what Ruth told him in a
letter). He had little fear of Hank or Bill judging by his letters
regarding repayment. His name appears in many letters and financial
statements in GSO archives as well as in numerous entries of Lois' diary.

They moved to St. Pete with the two P. lads, Robert and Hank Jr. Wally
stayed sober until 1952 when Kathleen remarried Hank (his 1st and 4th
wife both). Hank died shortly thereafter in 1954. He had inherited a
large sum of money who, his contemparary relative told me was his
"true love". He had invested it in a chicken coop, a $40,000 chicken
coup according to the front page of the Pennington Post. They hadn't
yet installed electric and being January in New Jersey they used
kerosene heaters. The fire marshall concluded that a chicken had
caught fire and made a blazing sprint into some hay. The most amazing
thing to me after digging out that newspaper on microfilm (which is
inside the Hopewell County paper if anyone's interested) is that the
front page article clearly naming the Hank P. coop, made no mention of
the fact that Hank died (unrelated cause) the very same day and his
obit was in the same paper. Population of Pennington was about 15 at
the time.

So the Fla. issue is How did Wally stay sober from 1940 forward in St.
Pete? (Hank Jr. died with 25 years sober - but a with continuing
resentment against Bill for taking a royalty interest in the book
contrary to their agreement). Both Bill and Hank were at fault. The
truly sad thing is that Hank P. III, a non-drinker now in his late
50's, is paralyzed as a result of a motorcycle accident in his youth.
He has little or no money. This is very real to me because of my many
hours on the phone with the family in the early 90's. He's a great guy
but carries the 3 generation resentment.

It seems like there would be some kind of moral justice for him. With
all the dollars in the basket being wasted to defend an archaic
copyright it seems that someone would say, "Here's an opportunity to
make something useful and right". It wouldn't take much to change this
guys life enormously. Time seems to be running out. I really have
needed to say this for a long time.

-merton

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Ken WENTZ" <ayceeman@m...> wrote:
>
> Hi sober friends, my name is Ken W. I was looking for anyone who
would have info on ANY group in the state of Florida that is still
meeting today that pre-dates March of 1945.
>
> Roy Y, an Army Sgt from Texas, came to Fla. that year & started
meetings In Tampa /St. Pete. One of those groups still meets today &
was told that they are the oldest CONTINUOUS meeting group still in
existence today in Florida.
>
> Any info would help, as our archives are currently being reviewed
and have found to contain many letters from Bobbie B. back & forth to
the groups Secy. referring to contacting Roy for Big Book info &
meeting times for the area. The letters starting in March '45 all the
way through till the early '50's are very interesting.
>
> Thanks for my sobriety .... Ken W
> 301 group Clearwater Fla.
> ________________________________
>
> Note from moderator:
>
> Any other information on how AA began in Florida would be
appreciated. Has anyone written a history of early Florida AA?
>
> We Indiana folks -- Frank N. (Syracuse IN), Beth M. (Lafayette IN),
John S. (Fort Wayne IN), Bruce C. (Muncie IN), Bob E. (Evansville IN),
Neil S. (Fishers IN) and others -- are attempting to do an overall
history of how AA spread over the Hoosier state. You can see our
progress so far at http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html
>
> If enough people are willing to get together and work cooperatively,
a good deal can be done. But I do not believe that a single person,
working totally by himself or herself like the Lone Ranger, can write
a worthwhile history of AA for an entire state. It's just too big a job.
>
> On early Florida AA history in particular, Richmond Walker, the
author of Twenty-Four Hours a Day, not only played a major role in
starting the first intergroup in Boston, but also in Daytona Beach,
Florida. He is a major figure in the history of AA in that state.
>
> I would be especially interested in any information about the date
at which the intergroup in Daytona Beach was begun, and any other
information about Rich's work in Daytona Beach and his work in Florida
AA in general.
>
> Notice how often Rich stresses in the big print sections at the top
of each page in the 24 Hour book, the importance of being loyal to
your group, and supporting your group, and participating actively in
the AA fellowship. I think he himself would have regarded all the
quiet personal work he did to help AA grow and spread in Florida as
more important than the books he wrote.
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
>

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++++Message 2978. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "This Matter of Fear" and Jung
From: Charlie . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2005 6:42:00 PM

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I have a quotation from Jung which may be the one you want. "Among all my
patients in the second half of life, that is to say, over 35, there has not
been
one whose problem, in the last resort, was not finding a spiritual ooutlook
on
life.........".

Send me a mailing address at my e-mail address below, and I will mail you
the
quote:

chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net (chasrutherford at sbcglobal.net)
________________________________

Note from the moderator: please be kind to your old silver-haired moderator
and
send your request directly to Charlie and not to the AAHistoryLovers,
because
the Yahoo group pending message list does not have a "Forward" button, which
means I have to copy your message out, look up the e-mail address, and then
put
it in an e-mail on my own email system in order to pass it on.
________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: lessspamplease
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [AAHistoryLovers] "This Matter of Fear" and Jung

In his essay "This Matter of Fear" which appears in "The Best of Bill" Bill
W.
paraphrases Jung as follows "Any person who has reached forty years of age,
and
who still has no means of comprehending who he is, ......"

Does anyone know the source of this idea in Jung's writings. Any information
would be greatly appreciated.

Eric

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++++Message 2979. . . . . . . . . . . . For information on AA anywhere in
the world
From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2005 4:51:00 AM

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For AA information almost anywhere in the world, go to this
web site. Someone just asked about Israel. For israel, you will probably
have
to update your windows system to read it - it is in Hebrew. The site will
guide
you through it.

For information in the U.S., go to yahoo home page and search
"aa and california" (without the quotes) or use any other state.

Now, let's get out there and be good to ourselves,

billyk

http://www.legacyaa.com/book/links_index.htm

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++++Message 2980. . . . . . . . . . . . Lillian Roth last years
From: JOHN REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/20/2005 4:16:00 PM

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There is some debate in regards to whether Lillian Roth died sober or not?
Could
this be clarified, please.
All the very best for the Holiday Season. John R DownUnder.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2981. . . . . . . . . . . . Cocaine NO, talking with spirits of
the dead YES
From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2005 7:19:00 AM

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From Mitchell K. and Jocis007 on Bill Wilson. Cocaine NO, talking to the
spirits of the dead in seances YES.
_______________________________

From <jocis007@aol.com> (jocis007 at aol.com)

Did Bill engage in seances?
_______________________________

From <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com> (mitchell_k_archivist and yahoo.com)

I always found the spook stuff (I didn't name it that) more fascinating than
the
sex, acid, seconal, guzzling cough syrup and ego.

_______________________________

Note from the moderator (Glenn C.):

For some interesting tales about what Bill W. called his "spook sessions,"
and
hearing voices, and getting messages from a Ouija board, where he
communicated
with various dead people from the distant past, see for example, Pass It On,
pages 275-280.

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++++Message 2982. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cocaine NO, talking with spirits
of the dead YES
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2005 1:05:00 AM

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Glenn wrote

For some interesting tales about what Bill W. called his "spook sessions,"
and
hearing voices, and getting messages from a Ouija board, where he
communicated
with various dead people from the distant past, see for example, Pass It On,
pages 275-280.

My family had a Ouija board and I would bet that most families also had one
during that period of time.

I hope my comment adds a little context to the use of Ouija boards.

Jim

___________________________

From Glenn:

Although Ouija is usually pronounced "wee jee" or "wee juh," the brand name
which the company which sold them used for their boards came from the French
and
German words for yes: "oui" and "ja."

My daughter Anna Grace got an old Ouija board once, and she and I tried it
out
on one occasion when she was a teenager. It is a board with the letters of
the
alphabet arranged in a circle, and two people put their fingers on a little
board which acts as a pointer.

The one time that I tried it, the little board did in fact inexplicably
begin
skating around, and would point to letters of the alphabet which would spell
out
intelligible answers to questions which we asked.

The Ouija board did however say that my son Ben was going to grow up to
become
an expert on the biology of South American omnivorous vertebrates, and he is
in
fact not that at all, but a computer expert working for a large national
insurance company in Indianapolis, so either Grace and I did not know how to
use
it correctly, or have no psychic ability whatsoever, or the boards are not
infallible (smile).

I do not pretend to be able to theorize about how the boards worked, or
whether
someone with great psychic ability could actually speak with spirits of the
dead
by using it, but as Jim pointed out, many people in the U.S. believed that
this
could be done, back at the time that Bill Wilson was experimenting with it.

Bill and Lois seem to have believed that it was possible to have some kind
of
communication with the dead, and they also got Dr. Bob and Anne Smith
involved
in some of these experiments at one point, so the Akron couple were
interested
in that sort of thing also, although apparently not nearly as much so as
Bill
and Lois.

As Jim B. indicates however, an enormous number of people in the U.S. were
interested in this kind of phenomenon during the period when Bill and Lois
were
conducting their experiments. Young people would hold a party, and bring out
a
Ouija board to see what kind of messages they could get. And as Jim notes,
there
was nothing particularly odd about trying out a Ouija board during that
period
of American history, just to see what would happen. There were also others
at
that time like the famous escape artist Houdini, who dedicated himself to
proving that all such claims of being able to speak with spirits of the
departed
were frauds, so that there were all sorts of things in newspapers and
magazines
and other publications, both pro and con. It was an important part of
American
popular culture during that period.

A good AA archivist has told me that, when she had an opportunity to meet
Lois,
at the very end of Lois' life, Lois still identified herself as a
Swedenborgian,
which (if I understand correctly) involved the belief on the part of many
members of that group, that one could communicate with angels and the
supernatural realm in a number of ways.

This too is outside the range of my competence, but I think that a decent
historical study of the Swedenborgian part of the AA heritage would be
valuable.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2983. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lillian Roth last years
From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2005 1:16:00 AM

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John wrote
There is some debate in regards to whether Lillian Roth died sober or not?
Could this be clarified, please.

I have heard this too and it is crap. This is the old "if you break your
anonymity you die drunk." This s*it is pure poison in AA.

She took counsel from Fr. John Doe who was the first sober priest who took
more than his fair share of flack for breaking his anonymity.

On one of the Fr. J. Doe talks which were turned into the Golden Books he
speaks of his relationship with Lillian Roth and how he was at her bedside
when she died sober. I believe him.

He also tales aim at the people who carry out the AA practice of
backstabbing.

BTW, when I was new I used to hear that Fr. J. Doe had died drunk, died
taking pills, got electrocuted, committed suicide.

I tracked down his niece thru SMT publishing and she was so happy to hear
from someone seeking the truth.

He had been to LA and had caught a cold on the plane. He was a stubborn type
and didn't seek treatment and it turned into a lung infection and killed
him.

A bit of research often yeilds the truth.
Jim

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++++Message 2984. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Lillian Roth last years
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2005 11:31:00 AM

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Hi John

According to the book "Famous Women and Alcohol" by Lucy Barry Robe
(1986) Lillian's sober time before her death in 1980 was around 8 or 9
months (according to a New York City alcoholism counselor named Jim
Barry - he was supposed to have known Lillian quite well).

Her biographical notes indicate that she was an extremely hard (around
the clock) drinker from her late teens on. Like Ebby T, her sober time
was on and off. And like Ebby T, she brought to many others the
sobriety she could not find for herself (God bless them both).

The book cited above notes Lillian's contribution to help AA in
Australia in 1946. She supposedly returned to drinking about 8-10
years after publication of her book "I'll Cry Tomorrow." Bill W is
said to have asked Lillian to remove references to AA from her book
but she declined.

The 1970's were pretty rough time for her in a cycle of
drinking-detox, drinking-detox and in and out of several hospitals. I
sincerely hope she enjoyed some peace in her final months.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of JOHN REID
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 3:16 PM
To: aaHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Lillian Roth last years

There is some debate in regards to whether Lillian Roth died sober or
not? Could this be clarified, please.
All the very best for the Holiday Season. John R DownUnder.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
--------------------~-->
Make a donation in someone?s honor this holiday season; support health
causes!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/1aJBND/7VHMAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~-
>

Yahoo! Groups Links

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++++Message 2985. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Father Martin''s Chalk Talk
From: John S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/21/2005 3:32:00 PM

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From: "John S." <quasso@mindspring.com> (quasso at mindspring.com)

Joseph, you can get copies of Fr Martin's tapes at this web site:
http://www.kellyproductions.com/

John S.

----------------------------------------

The same website address is given by Chris B. and Ricky H.

From: "Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com> (cbudnick at nc.rr.com):

Kelly Foundation (http://www.kellyproductions.com/) publishes all of Father
Martin's works. Chalk Talk can be purchased from there. There is a Chalk
Talk
revised version as well as the original.

From: Ricky Holcomb <rickyholcomb@yahoo.com> (rickyholcomb at yahoo.com)

Hi Joseph, This is Father Martin's website where you can purchase a vast
variety
of recovery videos. Ricky H.

----------------------------------------

From: "Kimball" <rowek@softcom.net> (rowek at softcom.net)

Chalk Talk is standard fare at all US Navy and US Air Force base treatment
facilities and/or Social Actions offices'. I had even heard once that Chalk
Talk
was done at some Naval base in Maryland under US Navy contract to train
counselors. It has not gone to DVD yet, and the last time I priced it at
Genesis
Books it was still over $100 for the movie. You can get the voice
track for free at http://www.xa-speakers.org/

----------------------------------------

From: Carolyn <emer_88@yahoo.com> (emer_88 at yahoo.com)

To get a copy of the chalk talks from Fr. Martin. You can contact the
center,
Father Martin's Ashley at 1-800-799-HOPE. Not sure the country code for the
phone number from Australia. They sell his tapes in the bookstore.

Hope it helps,
Carolyn

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++++Message 2986. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator out of town Dec. 27, 2005
to Jan. 2, 2006
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2005 10:14:00 PM

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I'll be out of town, speaking at an AA New Year's dance and other
activities,
from December 27, 2005 until January 2, 2006. If you could wait until the
new
year to send in new messages for posting, it would be greatly appreciated.

Yours in the fellowship,

Glenn C.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2987. . . . . . . . . . . . Candy and Hank P.
From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2005 6:53:00 AM

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From: "trixiebellaa" <hayntra@aol.com> (hayntra at aol.com)

Hi, history lovers, does anyone have any information on either of the
following?

Who was the doctor who suggested that alcoholics keep candy close by because
of
the craving that arose?

How did the chapter "To Employers" come to be written? Did Hank Parkhurst
work
with Bill at any time? and what happened to him?

Thank you,

Tracy from the Big Book Study Group (Barking, England)

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++++Message 2988. . . . . . . . . . . . Hank P. and early AA
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2005 3:11:00 PM

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Merton,
Thanks for this information on Hank P.
I have to acknowledge you as one of the best researchers I've ever known. I
had wondered how Hank could afford to open a chicken farm and you clarified
this
by explaining that he had an inheritance.
____________________________

See Message 2977 from <mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at
yahoo.com)http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2977
____________________________

I did talk by phone with Hank Jr., though I never met him in person. He did
have a resentment towards Bill W., but that apparently didn't keep him from
being in the program himself.
I never knew anything about Wallace Van Arx; the name is new to me.
Hank was romantically interested in Ruth Hock, but just how far this went I
don't know.
The founding of AA appears to involve some pretty messy stuff! Thank God we
can still stay sober.
Mel Barger

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++++Message 2989. . . . . . . . . . . . Responsibility statement and the 4th
International Convention
From: thegoochman2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/23/2005 12:47:00 AM

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Hello, my name is Gary G., I am an alcoholic who was interested in knowing
if
anyone knows where the responsibility statement "When anyone, anywhere,
reaches
out for help, I want the hand of A.A. always to be there. And for that: I am
responsible. . . " originally came from, who wrote it, and when it started
being
used so often in official A.A. literature.

In Loving Service,
Gary G.
______________________________

The Fourth A.A. International Convention in Toronto, Canada, 1965
by Nancy Olson (founder of the AAHistoryLovers)
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa4thintl1965.html

The fourth AA International Convention was the first not held in the USA. It
was held in Toronto, Canada, in July 1965.
Bill and Lois were, of course, prominent on the program, and at that time
many
of the old-timers were still active and at the convention. Nell Wing, Bill's
secretary, particularly remembered Clarence Snyder, who started AA in
Cleveland.
She said that Bill spent "a couple of hours" in Clarence's hotel suite
reminiscing about the early days. This surprised Nell, who pointed out:
"He started a group in Cleveland in May 1939, the first group, as far as we
know, to use the A.A. initials. (Bill had been using the full name since
1938 in
letters and a pamphlet.) On this slender basis, Clarence forever claimed to
have
founded A.A."
"As long as Bill was alive," Nell notes, "Clarence was antagonistic and
hostile
toward him. He was a leader of a small group of dissidents, who were
anti-Conference and anti-G.S.O., and who bad-mouthed Bill for many years.
And
here was Bill in Toronto, chatting and chuckling with his bête noire [a
person
disliked] and enjoying it all. I believe that was the last time they met
together."
Nell adds that a "feisty priest [Fr. John Doe] who had threatened to disrupt
the 'Coming of Age' ceremony in St. Louis, was at this convention also, but
now
he was loving and kind to Bill and Lois and everyone else. He had just
returned
from an audience with the Pope in Rome, bearing a citation for Bill. It
hangs
now on the wall at Stepping Stones."
The film "Bill's Own Story," which Nell had watched being made at Stepping
Stones, was shown for the first time in Toronto. It was well received and
has
been reproduced in several languages since then.
I think I need to give tribute to one person who made Toronto such a
significant convention: Al S.
Al S., an advertising and film man in New York, had joined the fellowship in
March 1944. "'Within a month," Nell Wing reports, "he was 'into action,' as
the
Big Book says. Among his many contributions to AA, he helped re-form the
Manhattan group, and also helped organize another club for A.A.s on
Forty-first
Street. He helped structure the New York Intergroup, for which he served as
secretary and director. While there, he and another member, George B., were
instrumental in persuading Knickerbocker Hospital to set aside a ward just
for
alcoholics under the sponsorship of A.A. -- the first such general hospital
in
New York to do so."
Nell notes that by late 1948, Al had become editor of the Grapevine. During
the
time he worked on the Grapevine, he also served as a director of A.A.
Publishing, Inc. (an earlier name of AA World Services, Inc. From 1958 to
1961,
he was a director of the A.A. Grapevine, Inc., and a trustee on the General
Service Board.
He attended, until his death, every international convention and contributed
to
the success of them all. He was a valued friend of Bill's, according to
Nell,
and Bill solicited Al's views and comments on all his books and other
writings.
Nell adds: "Lois put it succinctly: 'Bill and Al were buddies.'"
I, for one, feel a debt of gratitude to Al S., whom I don't remember ever
meeting, for all he did to help New York AA, especially the Intergroup
office,
where I made my first AA contact.
But the contribution for which most of us feel most grateful, it was Al S.
who
composed the "I am Responsible" pledge for the convention in Toronto.
Nell writes: "I will never forget -- nor will anyone who was there -- the
moving ceremony of rededication on Saturday evening in the Maple Leaf
Gardens
auditorium. The crowd of more than 10,000 rose and joined the conference
delegates, trustees, and A.A. representatives from 21 countries up on the
stage
in repeating the declaration. They clasped hands and loudly pronounced in
one
tremendous, strong voice:

"I am responsible.. When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the
hand
of A.A. always to be there. And for that: I am responsible."

"There was a special spirit about the Toronto Convention. Many people say it
was the best ever."
______________________________

Source: Grateful To Have Been There, by Nell Wing

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++++Message 2990. . . . . . . . . . . . Kelly Productions, Inc. or Kelly
Foundation
From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2005 6:27:00 PM

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The Kelly Foundation is the creation of Joe McQ. -
_Home Page Kelly Foundation, Inc._ (http://www.kellyfdn.com/)

Which is quite different from Kelly Productions, Inc.
_http://www.kellyproductions.com/_ (http://www.kellyproductions.com/)

In God's love and service,

Cliff Bishop
(214) 350-1190
FAX - (214) 350-7571
CBBB164@aol.com
www.ppgaadallas.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2991. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety
From: thegoochman2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/23/2005 1:45:00 AM

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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@c...>
wrote:
>
> There was a man at the International that claimed 62 years.
>
> Diz T.
>
Hi Diz, Gary here / Alkie :) I just saw that man the day before
thanksgiving at a gratitude meeting that he started over 57 yrs ago,
his name is Chauncey C.
He is from Pontiac MI. & he will be 93 yrs old this month and also said
he got sober at Dr. Bob's house.
Yes he did say that he was the last one standing at A.A.'s
International Convention in Toronto Cananda for the 70th anniversary of
A.A. this past summer.
I know that our G.S.O. does not attempt to keep and records on yrs of
sobriety. But I would have to say he's one of the longest, I also met
James Houk (sp) at a (Back to Basics) workshop a few yrs back and he is
another one with a very long time sober. Was also in his 90's at the
time I saw him. (I'm not even sure if he's still alive today.)

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++++Message 2992. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival
rates
From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/23/2005 12:09:00 PM

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I finally got around to reading this piece and something we were discussing
in
Bristol came to mind re: people coming to the rooms for a time and then
stopping
but remaining sober.

The Big Book speaks about the different types of drinkers and Clancy was
speaking about "alcoholics of our type" and how we need meetings otherwise
we
lose sight of the 2nd part of Step 1 and if that unamnageability comes back
we'll either drive the world and its mother insane or go out drinking again
or
BOTH :-)

If people can go to meetings for a while, and then quit going, but can still
continue to stay away from the bottle, they might have had a drink problem,
but
are they "alcoholics of our type"? That is, are they the type of drinkers
described as "real alcoholics" in the BB?

You know there so much drinking going on nowadays, it's everywhere, pervades
everything and I'm wondering are we seeing more people with a drink problem
than
before when drink was not so pervasive? Certainly they have a drink problem
and
it's causing unmanageability but have they the unmanageability that we "real
alcoholics" have drunk or sober?

Fiona

_________________________

A note from the moderator:

Fiona is raising an interesting question. Mrs. Marty Mann in her work with
the
National Council on Alcoholism and in her books on alcoholism back during
the
early AA period, always tried to make a distinction between "heavy drinkers"
who
clearly drank too much but still had the ability (when given the proper
motivation) to stay away from alcohol by the use of their own will power,
and
the kind of alcoholics who had no hope of getting sober and staying sober
unless
they worked an AA program.

In the kind of high society and artistic and literary circles which Marty
drank
in, both in New York and London, there were a lot of people who drank an
incredible amount of alcohol at their often very wild parties, but Marty was
well aware that a large percentage of the heaviest drinkers were
nevertheless
not like her. (See Sally and David Brown's biography of Marty.)

Modern researchers when making statistical studies also usually make a
distinction between those whom they describe as "alcohol abusers" and those
whom
they describe as true alcoholics, which they believe are not the same thing.

In other words, at all points in the last 70 years, it has been clear that
there
are large numbers of people who drink too much and get in trouble who are
NOT
true alcoholics, and there are people who drink too much and get in trouble
who
definitely ARE true alcoholics, and that you can't tell the difference just
by
counting how many drinks they had at last night's party.

So the question is, did the research on 3 and 5 year survival rates clearly
distinguish between those two types of drinkers?

Given the kind of publicity that is given now to professional alcoholism
treatment facilities, one could imagine people who were alcohol abusers
believing that they ought to go into treatment at one of these facilities,
just
to make sure that they could quit, because they were taking their need to
quit
deadly seriously, even though in reality they were the sort of drinkers who
could have quit on their own.

In fact they never needed either extensive treatment or AA either one
(although
neither did them any harm). So when people who had been alcohol abusers but
NOT
true alcoholics finally quit attending AA meetings, it would not
automatically
make THEM go back to drinking again.

Glenn C. (moderator)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2993. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and Helen
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/23/2005 10:12:00 AM

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Hi Merton

Bill W, like any other human being, had his strengths and weaknesses.
One of his weaknesses was reputedly a "fondness for the ladies." I am
not out to demean Bill but we also should be careful not to elevate
him to demigod status.

The euphemism of "Founder's Watch" emanates from Francis Hartigan's
book "Bill W" (re pg 192). Hartigan was told of it by Barry L (author
of "Living Sober").

Hartigan reveals in detail Bill's relationship with his mistress Helen
W. She was the woman for whom Bill changed his will and royalty
agreement to bequeath her 10% of his book royalties. That had to be an
excruciating embarrassment to Lois.

Humans tend to be humans whether they are named Bill W or Bill Clinton
or Dr Martin Luther King or John or Bobby Kennedy, etc., etc. Their
human frailties should not diminish their extraordinary contributions
to humanity.

Cheers
Arthur

_____________________________

Responding to Message 2971 from "mertonmm3"
<mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)

Re: Did Bill ever experiment with cocaine during his depression phase of
sobriety?

There is no such book. It sounds like he's thinking of Sigmund Freud.
There are some websites that might be making such claims. According
to these sources Bill made Hef look like a statistical failure in the
art of love. One site claims they had to stake him out at meetings if
a pretty newcomer gal came strolling into the meeting. No doubt she'd
magnetically lock onto Bill at once making his guardians job an
exercise in utter futility. The site called it "founder watch"!
Perhaps the women couldn't help but fantasize about Bill in ...
Swimming Apparel!! Think about that for a moment!!! Then again maybe
the gals were only interested in the Coke. Maybe that made him
depressed. Which of course made him more attractive to more newly
sober women.

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++++Message 2994. . . . . . . . . . . . Xmas mnessage from Bill W - Merry
Sober Christmas everyone
From: Cherie'' P . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 10:03:00 PM

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I recieved the following Christmas message from Bill W to the fellowship in
1944.

My question is, is this the ONLY year he wrote a letter of this nature? And
if
others exist, please provide links to them if possible.

thanks

Hugs
Cherie'
One Day At A Time
DOS 04-26-01

A Christmas message from Bill W.
> ALL MEMBERS
> Greetings On Our 10th Christmas, 1944
> Yes, it's in the air! The spirit of Christmas once more warms
> this poor distraught world. Over the whole globe millions are
> looking forward to that one day when strife can be forgotten, when
> it will be remembered that all human beings, even the least are
> loved by God, when men will hope for the coming of the Prince of
> Peace as they never hoped before. But there is another world which
> is not poor. Neither is it distraught. It is the world of
> Alcoholics Anonymous, where thousands dwell happily and secure. Secure
> because each of us, in his own way, knows a greater power who is
> love, who is just, and who can be trusted. Nor can men and women
> of AA ever forget that only through suffering did they find enough
> humility to enter the portals of that New World. How privileged we
> are to understand so well the divine paradox that strength rises
> from weakness, that humiliation goes before resurrection; that
> pain is not only the price but the very touchstone of spiritual
> rebirth. Knowing it's full worth and purpose, we can no longer
> fear adversity, we have found prosperity where there was poverty,
> peace and joy have sprung out of the very midst of
> chaos. A Great indeed, our blessings! And so, Merry Christmas to
> you all--
> from the Trustees, from Bobbie and from Lois and me.
>
> Bill Wilson
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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++++Message 2995. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Lillian Roth last years
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/22/2005 3:02:00 PM

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I am delighted to read Arthur Sheehan's and Jim Blair's comments about
Lillian Roth as well as Fr. Pfau.

I did see Lillian Roth once at an Alano Club on Wilshire Blvd. in Los
Angeles.
She was sober then, and accompanied by her husband, whom I seem to remember
as a
person who had to use crutches or was otherwise somewhat handicapped in
walking.
They seemed very happy together.

But I read some years later that they were divorcing and he was complaining
about her drinking.

There was a lot of anger when Lillian published her book, but one AA
friend told me that he thought it actually helped many women face their
alcoholism (a tough thing for women in the 1950s). For that reason, I never
joined the chorus of Roth critics.

She also had a part on Broadway after writing her book, but I don't know how
that worked out. Nor can I say if she had regained sobriety before her
death.

Mel Barger

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++++Message 2996. . . . . . . . . . . . Memories of Ralph Pfau (Father John
Doe)
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2005 11:08:00 AM

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I am delighted to read Arthur Sheehan's and Jim Blair's comments about
Lillian
Roth as well as Fr. Pfau.

I once had dinner with Fr. Pfau and also heard him speak at least twice.

Father Pfau also felt he was doing the right thing when he published "The
Prodigal Shepherd." Father Pfau reached a lot of people and his Golden books
were later acquired by Hazelden and are still doing some good in the world.

I think Father Pfau's biggest problem was a short fuse. He didn't seem to
think
much of Bill W. either, and told me (in 1953) that Bill's spiritual
experience
in Towns Hospital was not from grace, as grace can come only through the
Church.

I think he did make it easier for other Catholic priests who followed him
into
AA, and he cooperated fully with Austin Ripley and Guest House, though he
did
not achieve his own sobriety through that route.

Merry Christmas to All,
Mel Barger
____________________

Note from the moderator:

Ralph Pfau ("Father John Doe") was a parish priest in Indianapolis who got
sober
by borrowing and reading a copy of the Big Book which he had found in the
home
of a man to whom he had gone to give last rites. Father Ralph kept on
reading
and re-reading the book, and he did not believe it applied to him. He was a
Catholic priest, for heaven's sakes, and priests weren't alcoholics, they
knew
too much!! -- or so he thought at the time. But inexplicably, as long as he
kept
on reading the strange book, he did not drink or have any desire to drink.

Ralph finally phoned Doherty Sheerin, a retired businessman who was a good
Irish
Catholic, and the founder of AA in Indianapolis, on November 10, 1943 (the
evening of Ralph's thirty-ninth birthday).

For Dohr's importance in the founding of AA in Indianapolis and numerous
other
cities and towns in Indiana, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/nindy2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/nIndy1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/nindy3.html

Dohr made a twelfth step call on Ralph, and took him to his first AA
meeting.
Dohr became his AA sponsor and Ralph never drank again.

"Prodigal Shepherd" was Ralph's autobiography, which he published in 1958.
In it
he described his descent into alcoholism, how Doherty Sheerin had saved him
by
bringing him into AA, and how he had attempted to help the AA fellowship
during
his years in the program by leading spiritual retreats, and writing and
speaking
on spiritual topics. A shorter version of the autobiography ran as a
three-part
series in Look magazine.

Ralph and Bill W. started out as warm friends (he traveled with Bill in
California and Mexico) but eventually had a falling out, which lasted for a
few
years. At the Fourth A.A. International Convention in Toronto, Canada, 1965,
a
Roman Catholic priest in Canada who is in AA tells me that he saw Father
Ralph
go to Bill W.'s hotel room, and that the two men spent a long time together
and
made their peace with one another, and parted as friends again. See Message
2989 for more on that convention:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2989

Ralph's niece told me that he died because a doctor gave him an airsickness
shot
with a needle that had been improperly steriziled (that was back in the days
when doctor's reused hypodermic needles over and over again). Apparently the
person on whom the doctor had used the needle the previous time had
hepatitis.
They rushed Ralph to the hospital in Owensboro, Kentucky, where one of the
doctors was an AA member, and the only physician whom Ralph trusted by now.

http://hindsfoot.org/pfpix1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/pflou1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou3.html

He died on a Sunday, on February 19, 1967, there in Our Lady of Mercy
hospital
in Owensboro, Kentucky, over on the south bank of the Ohio river, separated
by
just the river’s width from his own beloved Indiana.

He had been sober for over 23 years, and had helped lead thousands and
thousands
of alcoholics into a deeper understanding of practical spirituality as it
affected our dealings with other people during our ordinary everyday lives.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

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++++Message 2997. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and Ouija boards
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2005 11:25:00 AM

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I remember when Ouija boards were popular, although I never dabbled in
them. But Bill was a strong believer and convinced his friends to join him
and
Lois in the "Spook Room."

I think he persuaded Mr. and Mrs. Frank Amos to participate. Amos was the
New
York advertising man who went out to study Akron AA and wrote the very
persuasive letter that convinced John D. Rockefeller, Jr., to back the
venture.

Amos later moved back to Cambridge, Ohio, to serve as publisher of his
family's
newspaper after his older brother died.

Mel Barger

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++++Message 2998. . . . . . . . . . . . Spook Room at Stepping Stones, Dr.
Bob and Anne
From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2005 10:48:00 AM

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The "Spook Room" at Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills, NY has been
redecorated as
the 'Music Room.'

With scant evidence of any of the apparatus (Ouija Boards, Tarot Cards,
etc.)
that comprised the parlor games of the 1930a and 1940s, there were more
items
from Lois' family heirlooms (the Burham family)relating to music and musical
instruments.

No matter...to me, leisure recreation is just leisure recreation!

What of Anne and Dr. Bob? Does anyone know of the séances they held in
their
home?

Rick, Illinois
____________________________

Note from the moderator (Glenn C.): I have read something at one point which
said that Dr. Bob and Anne Smith particpated in some seances themselves at
one
point. But I don't know any details. Rick's question is a good one. Does
anybody in our group have more information?

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++++Message 2999. . . . . . . . . . . . Creeping Charlie Plant - Pass It On
- Lois W.
From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2005 11:53:00 PM

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From <Fritz689@adelphia.net> (Fritz689 at adelphia.net)

I was given a clipping from the Creeping Charlie Plant that was at
Bill`s bedside while he was in the hospital in Miami in 1971. The
linage of the plant that was shared with me was, from Lois Wilson it
went to Scotty M. (from South Carolina)who told him to PASS IT ON as a
rememberance of Bill and the fellowship that was CREEPING into the world.

Scotty M. passed it on on Micheal E. from Evans,Ga. who passed it on
to Ginny G. from Lake Milton,Ohio, who gave a clipping to my wife and
myself Fred & Katie I., from Lorain,Ohio.

I have been searching for any information about Scotty M.ever since Micheal
E.
told US that he was still alive and living in South Carolina,U.S.A.

If anyone has any knowledge of this story or Scotty M. please send the info
my
way <Fritz689@adelphia.net> (Fritz689 at adelphia.net) as I would love to
meet
and get some first hand knowledge from Scotty.

Thank You all for My Life.
Gratefully Yours,
Fred "Fritz" I.

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++++Message 3000. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hank P. and early AA
From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2005 11:55:00 PM

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In 1947 Hank Parkhurst wrote a letter to Clarence Snyder regarding their
"porcelain moulding" business complaining that Clarence was "messed up" with
AA
and other things and was not working the porcelain business.

What was the porcelain moulding business and why was Hank relying so heavily
on
Clarence to make the sales? The letter suggests that Clarence might be the
only
salesman.

There is another letter to Clarence in 1946 where Hank admits to drinking
beer
for a couple of weeks so I assume he was still doing this in 1947.

God Bless,

Pete K.

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++++Message 3001. . . . . . . . . . . . The 1968-1974 AA comic strips online
From: Rudy890 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/23/2005 4:08:00 PM

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Came across this old strip, a complete set of the 1968-1974 Alcoholics
Anonymous
comic strips.

http://www.ep.tc/aa-comics/

Just Click On Each Strip After You've Read It

Hugs
Rudy

PLEASE VISIT MY HOME PAGE
http://www.geocities.com/rudy849
============================
rudy890@optonline.net
http://www.cloudmark.com/?rc=9mttaa
============================
Consider How Hard It Is To Change Yourself
And You'll Understand What Little Chance
You Have In Trying To Changing Others
º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤øø¤º°
`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤øø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


1: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
2: http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cfd4js7/M=324658.6070095.7083352.3001176/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109012923/A=2343726/R=0/SIG=12ida89nd/*http://clk.atdmt.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/&amp;time=1108926523659646
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6: http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cs2c8qa/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109672995/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075
7: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messagesearch/1451?query=grapevine%20circuit%20tcumming
8: http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14371521&amp;BRD=1671&amp;PAG=461&amp;dept_id=17786&amp;rfi=6
9: http://www.hazelden.org/servlet/hazelden/cms/ptt/hazl_7030.html?sh=t&amp;sf=t&amp;page_id=27727
10: http://historyofalcoholanddrugs.typepad.com/alcohol_and_drugs_history/SHADV19.html
11: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/post?postID=55l7GyVwP3CbGReciNhGK9-oPzhi--X2wFa15eInRF_5b1MLswM9dCfjDzuhgBMV80FDqhSAk0H28Q
12: http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&amp;k=Addiction+recovery+center&amp;w1=Addi
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15: http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&amp;k=Christian+addiction+recovery&amp;w1=A
16: http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&amp;k=Alcoholics+anonymous&amp;w1=Addiction
17: http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&amp;k=Addiction+recovery+program&amp;w1=Addiction+recovery+program&amp;w2=Recovery+from+addiction&amp;w3=Addiction+recovery+center&amp;w4=Christian+addiction+recovery&amp;w5=Alcoholics+anonymous&amp;c=5&amp;s=152&amp;.sig=7nIehTXyBhra_NvwptNX5Q
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22: http://dmoz.org/Health/Addictions/Substance_Abuse/Alcoholism/Support_Groups/Chats_and_Forums/
23: http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050523/NEWS/505230349/1003/NEWS02
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