AA History Lovers 2006 Messages 3002-3975 moderated by Nancy Olson September 18, 1929 – March 25, 2005 Glenn F. Chesnut June 28, 1939 – IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3002. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Length of sobriety and James H. From: JNP in Maine . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 8:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I met James H. in 1997 at the Wilson House in Vermont. I am almost positive he had said that he was not a member of AA and never had been. Does anyone have any info re this statement by him. Thanks Joe Petrocelli (jopet34 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3003. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant January Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/31/2005 1:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking. Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School. Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of "Alcoholics Anonymous". Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression. Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA. Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob. Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety". Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus, Ohio Central Group. Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland. Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded. Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan. Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get away from the Oxford Group atmosphere". Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years sober. Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous, died. Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group. Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School, Akron, Ohio. Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years dies. Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician Heal Thyself" died. Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC. Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri. Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto. Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started in Oct 24 1943. Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in his sleep. Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in Pennington, New Jersey. Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001. Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church in Brookyn Heights. Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL. Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley. Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1. Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus Contra Spiritum". End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated for comment, evaluation and sale. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3004. . . . . . . . . . . . Long-Term Success Higher in 2004 Survey From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/1/2006 12:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How long have members of A.A. been sober? That is one of the questions in the triennial survey among randomly selected groups in the U.S. and Canada every three years. Surveys are all done during a one to two week period. Everyone who is at a particular meeting of each of those groups is asked to participate. LENGTH OF SOBRIETY IN ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Survey Year ...<1 ..... 1-5 .... >5 ...... Average **77 ... 37.3% .. 38.0% .. 24.7% ... 4 years **80 ... 36.4% .. 37.2% .. 26.4% ... 4 years **83 ... 37.7% .. 36.9% .. 24.9% ... 4 years **86 ... 32.8% .. 38.4% .. 29.0% ... 4+ years 1989 ... 34% .... 37% .... 29% ..... 4+ years 1992 ... 31% .... 34% .... 35% ..... 5+ years 1996 ... 27% .... 28% .... 45% ..... 6+ years 1998 ... 27% .... 26% .... 47% ..... 7+ years 2001 ... 30% .... 22% .... 48% ..... 7+ years 2004 ... 26% .... 24% .... 50% ..... 8+ years As of the 2004 Survey, long-term sobriety was so prevalent that "Greater Than Five Years" was broken into two parts as follows: 5-10 Years = 14% >10 Years = 36% ------------------ adding >5 Years = 50% For those unfamiliar with Alcoholics Anonymous, sobriety in A.A. means continuous and complete abstinence from alcohol in any form. This table represents only those who are sober and still attending meetings. Someone who got sober in A.A. and who is staying sober by some other means would not appear in the survey. NOTE: Entries with dates beginning ** here are from a summary. Those with complete years are from copies of published pamphlets: "(P-48) Alcoholics Anonymous YYYY Membership Survey" ___________________ En2joy! Tom En2ger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3005. . . . . . . . . . . . Definitions of the "real alcoholic" (re 3 and 5-year survival rates) From: hoojgs . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 10:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My comments below do not address the question of the statistical accuracy of the survival rate study but relate to the history of the debate over who is a "real alcoholic." I wonder if anyone has seen the actual long list of membership requirements that Bill collected in the days before the adoption of the third tradition. Thanks in advance, Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3006. . . . . . . . . . . . James H. and length of sobriety From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 6:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Gary, James Houck was never a member of AA. He is the last original Oxford Grouper and puts on those workshop with a friend of his who was in AA. I do not know whether the friend is alive or not. Diz T. Tallahassee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3007. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: Des Green . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 4:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII (With a comment by Glenn C. at the end) Hi, With respect to what Fiona D. said in Message 2992 (http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2992). Constant references to the REAL alcoholic sometimes confuses me. If a person takes a drink and cannot control their intake is that not a real alcoholic ? If this allergy, or whatever it is has progressed to the point that alcohol is dominating ones every waking thought and the consumption of it is the most important thing is that not a real alcoholic? The suggestion sometimes seems to be that no alcoholic can recover unless they are in AA and attend meetings . So what is it you are saying here ? 1. There are people who are pretending to be alcoholic? 2. Some people are more alcoholic than others? I'm fairly new to all this, 21 months sober. And please don't think I am having a go at you personally, I'm not. I'm simply picking up your thread to obtain an answer, not necessarily from you. This is another thing that does my head in .... having to be so careful about the sensitivities of others when nothing insensitive is intended. Best wishes, Des It really is great to be sober and in such a fantastic fellowship Good Luck! ______________________________ Des, Let me try my hand at answering your question. It was common in early AA to distinguish between three different kinds of drinkers. Let's call them Types 1, 2, and 3 for the purposes of this discussion. Sometimes they were called (Type 1) "social drinkers," (Type 2) "heavy drinkers," and (Type 3) "alcoholics." Richmond Walker, in Twenty Four Hours a Day (1948), referred to the last category as "merry go round drinkers." Mrs. Marty Mann makes this same kind of distinction in the book she wrote for the National Council on Alcoholism. Our South Bend good old timer, Brownie, makes that three-fold distinction in the material about him in The St. Louis Gambler and the Railroad Man. Dr. Jellinek (and many others) tried to make distinctions of this same sort during the 1940's and 1950's. It had been noted that some alcoholics were clearly drinking alcoholically from the time they took their very first drink. The first time they had a chance at a bottle (even if they were just teenagers), they drank themselves rip roaring drunk, and they just kept on drinking that way from that point on. But other alcoholics started out as social drinkers, and then gradually began drinking more and more, until finally after enough years they crossed some invisible line, and became clearly and unambiguously alcoholic drinkers. Psychologists who study alcoholism and public health agencies which are concerned with alcoholism have found that they also have to make some kind of distinction between people who are drinking a lot, and people who are alcoholics. You cannot measure the amount of alcohol that is consumed and use that to determine who is a heavy drinker and who is an alcoholic. All sorts of fancy definitions have been dreamed up by psychologists, medical doctors, and so on, to try to identify where you make the division between Type Two heavy drinkers (or "alcohol abusers" or whatever term you're using) and Type Three genuine alcoholics. Let us not get into quarrels about what precise terminology to use here, because there have been a variety of different terms used over the years. But as far as I can see, the basic distinction historically has been a simple one. A Type Two heavy drinker (or alcohol abuser, or whatever) who is given sufficient reason to stop drinking, will be able to stop on his own simply by using will power. Maybe his doctor puts him on a heart medication and tells him that he has to take the medication to save his life, and that this medication cannot be mixed with alcohol in the system. Or something in his life puts him in a situation where he will get in enormous trouble if he does not quit. So he simply grits his teeth, and stops drinking. Just like that. Permanently. A Type Three true alcoholic will find that he cannot stop drinking on his own, by his own will power, no matter how serious the consequences are going to be. His wife says that she will leave him, his employer says that he will fire him, the judge says that he will give him twenty years in prison the next time he drives drunk, his doctor says that he will be dead within a year if he keeps on drinking. But no matter what it is, a true alcoholic will STILL keep drinking, in spite of all that, if he is trying to do it by himself by his own willpower. If you listen to tape recordings of the good old timers, you will find numerous examples of alcoholics whose drinking was destroying them totally, who still could not stop on their own, simply by using will power. One thing which muddies the waters nowadays, is that (beginning with Dr. Jellinek's famous chart back in the 1940's) the experts on alcoholism have assembled data on the way that the disease of alcoholism progresses, where they can spot the symptoms of Type Three chronic alcoholism much earlier than they could in the 1930's and 1940's. So nowadays we can sometimes identify a person as definitely a chronic alcoholic early in the progression of the disease, and send that person off to AA, and save that person an awful lot of misery and heartbreak, EVEN THOUGH in early AA they would not have allowed that person to attend AA meetings because they would have felt that this person's drinking did not qualify him or her to be a "true alcoholic" yet. So is this particular individual a Type Two heavy drinker who is getting himself or herself in trouble, and maybe needs some encouragement to quit doing that from a psychotherapist or someone like that? Or is this particular individual a Type Three alcoholic EARLY in the progression of the disease, who hasn't gotten himself or herself in major trouble yet, but who nevertheless is going to need AA in order to quit? In current AA jargon, we would sometimes call this kind of person a "high bottom" drunk. So what Fiona was asking was, were the people in that statistical table who went to AA meetings for a year and then quit going to meetings but were still sober even five years later, actually Type Three alcoholics? Or were they Type Two heavy drinkers who got sober in AA meetings, but actually would have been able to get sober all on their own anyway, just by using their own willpower? In other words, were they Type Two heavy drinkers who had been misdiagnosed as early stage Type Three alcoholics? The issue at stake is, is it EVER safe for a Type Three genuine alcoholic to quit going to meetings? If they quit going to meetings, will Type Three alcoholics ALWAYS inevitably go back to their alcoholic drinking sooner or later? The good old timers in my part of Indiana say (on the basis of their many years of experience) that Type Three genuine alcoholics will ALWAYS go back to drinking eventually if they quit going to AA meetings, with the one exception that a few do manage to use church going as a substitute for AA meetings, and can stay sober that way. Fiona's question is not some nit picking question about numbers and statistics, but a word of warning about something which could cost alcoholics their lives if they make the wrong decision. Fiona is warning all of us (based in her case of her knowledge of Irish alcoholics): do NOT assume on the basis of those 3 and 5 year survival rate statistics which were recently posted that you will have some hope of staying sober if you quit going to AA meetings. Given the fact that Fiona's Irish alcoholics and my own Hoosier alcoholics here in Indiana seem to suffer the same fate if they quit going to AA meetings, I would advise anyone reading these AAHL postings to take Fiona's warning with deadly seriousness. Her warning is simple: don't use those 3 and 5 year survival statistics to play games with your life, if you are a true alcoholic. I would add an additional warning to hers. Alcoholism is cunning, baffling, and powerful. Also patient, sneaky, and lying. Many a true alcoholic here in my part of Indiana has gone to AA meetings and stayed sober for a long time (maybe even ten years of more) until the voice of Mr. Alcoholism inside that person's head has started murmuring, "You know, I haven't had any trouble staying off the booze these past ten years, and you know, I'm not really like some of these other people in the AA meetings. I'm more intelligent than they are, have more will power and self control. I never fell as low as they fell. Maybe I'm not really an alcoholic at all. Maybe I was just a heavy drinker, you know, somebody who just got carried away sometimes. But I'm so much older and wiser now. You know, I think it would be safe now, after ten years, to go out and have a little social drink." We have a lot of retreads here in Hoosier AA who let themselves listen to that lying voice inside their heads, and went back out drinking, and then had to suffer years of misery before they finally came dragging themselves back in the doors of AA, admitting finally, "O.K., I guess that I (even I) actually am an alcoholic of some sort, the kind who needs AA meetings if I want to live instead of dying." I should also say that the people in Indiana who go back out and try it again after ten years or so, are people who tell us later on that in fact they never worked the steps, even though they went to meetings. It is particularly doing a really thorough and deep reaching Fourth Step which is vital if you want people to give you the ultimate accolade at your funeral, and say with enormous respect in their voices, "he died sober," "she died sober." So to Fiona's warning, I will add my own. Don't use those 3 and 5 year survival rate statistics which were posted to play games with your life. Keep on going to meetings. Keep up constant contact with your fellow AA members. Do a real Fourth Step and ferret out all of the resentment and fear in your life, and figure out what all your character defects are, so you won't be tempted to look down your nose at ANYBODY in an AA meeting, thinking yourself superior to that person in any way whatsoever. http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html And remember that EVEN IF someone could prove that 33-1/3 % of genuine alcoholics could eventually quit going to AA meetings and still be sober 3 years later, or even 5 years later, that is till playing Russian roulette with a six gun with four chambers loaded. And 5 years isn't 10 years or 15 years. Glenn C. South Bend, Indiana, U.S. (A REAL alcoholic, sober today ONLY by the grace of God and the help of the people in this fellowship, who is not planning on jumping out of the lifeboat, thank you!) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3008. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 10:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would add that there is a *CLINICAL* differentiation between alcohol *DEPENDENCY* and alcohol *ABUSE* and the treatment recommended is different, although somewhat similar. A comparison of the criteria outlined in the Big Book regarding the descriptions of drinkers to the clinical criteria found in the DSM-IV-TR, reveals how amazingly close the two agree with the differentiations. I would also make the distinction that meeting attendance is not the same thing as "working the program" . . . And not a requirement for either sobriety or the kind of permanent sobriety of which the Book speaks. Many people, who fit criteria for alcohol dependency ("alcoholics") go to meetings, learn how to work the program (the steps) and incorporate them into their lives as a way of life, without going to meetings forever. Such I think was the author's intent when he wrote: "AA's twelve Steps are a group of principles, spiritual in their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole." Besides, as I recall, AA is for people who wish to stop drinking . . . It doesn't really matter that they may or may not be dependent upon alcohol or "simply" abuse it . . . A desire to stop is all that matters. If indeed it is a Higher Power that keeps us sober, then simply going to meetings isn't going to work for the long haul. But, working the spiritual program in all our affairs will continue to insure sobriety . . . Even without meetings. Jon Markle 9/9/82 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3009. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Responsibility statement and the 4th International Convention From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 7:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, Yes, I knew that Al S. composed the Responsibility Statement, although I never met him. Clarence Snyder also told me about spending time with Bill in Toronto. Bill had wanted to see him, he said. I'm not surprised that Bill enjoyed the meeting and showed no hard feelings. In all their correspondence, it was always Bill who was conciliatory, etc., despite being criticized by Clarence. I believe there was some concern in AA over the fact that we had finally been criticized by a national publication; i.e., the 1963 Harper's Magazine article by Arthur Cain. If I am not mistaken, the 1965 Convention theme was that AA should take its inventory. I wasn't able to attend that year because our son Dean, now forty, chose that weekend to be born. It was very thoughtful of AA to arrange things so that I could finally attend a Toronto convention in 2005. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3010. . . . . . . . . . . . James Houck (Oxford Group) From: Emmanuel John . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 11:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was just at the house of Jim Houck the grandson of the James Houck you mentioned, (on Friday night.) I do believe that his grand father is still alive. We live in the Baltimore/Towson area of Maryland, he reports that his grandfather got sober on 12-12, the day after Bill entered Towns for the last time Peace and Happy Days Emmanuel S. John, LCSW-C _______________________________ See Message 3006 on James Houck IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3011. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Length of sobriety From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 6:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, I talked with Chauncey C. by telephone yesterday. He is now in a care home in Waterford, Mich., but is still sharp and willing to converse about his AA experience. I first met him in 1950 when I was five months sober and had moved to Pontiac, Mich., from my hometown, Norfolk, Nebr. He had nine years then, but there were members in Pontiac and Detroit who had more time. I don't think he got sober at Dr. Bob's house, but I can check that. He told me that a judge in Pontiac helped get him in touch with the AA's there in 1941. He was a blue-collar man and felt a little out of place with doctors and lawyers in the group, but that quickly changed. He and his wife Vivian were married when she was 13 or 14 and he was 15 or 16 (I must check that out!). Amazingly, they are still married and close to their 80th anniversary! That must be some kind of record. Mel Barger _______________________________ In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Diz Titcher" wrote: There was a man at the International that claimed 62 years. Diz T. _______________________________ Hi Diz, Gary here / Alkie :) I just saw that man the day before thanksgiving at a gratitude meeting that he started over 57 yrs ago, his name is Chauncey C. He is from Pontiac MI. and he will be 93 yrs old this month and also said he got sober at Dr. Bob's house. Yes he did say that he was the last one standing at A.A.'s International Convention in Toronto Cananda for the 70th anniversary of A.A. this past summer. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3012. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: pmds@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2006 8:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It seems to me that trying to make alcoholics different from heavy drinkers is an attempt to make black and white out of something which is most likely gray. The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that alcoholism is primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility. Physiologically alcoholics metabolize alcohol and mind altering chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of the population (in the United States, in other places it is higher or lower. It appears that the rate of alcoholism is lower in cultures that have had alcohol the longest period of time and higher in those cultures that have had it the least amount of time.) See for example Under the Influence by Milam et al. If, therefore, alcoholism is a real disease then it should be viewed as a real disease. Some diabetics can control their diabetes by diet, others by diet and oral medication and others by multiple daily injections. Each one is a "real" diabetic, it is the disease itself that is different in different people. Some milder, some more severe. Some alcoholics get sober in their teens, others in their 80's and all ages in between. Are we to decide which are real alcoholics? Logically it would seem that those in their 80's may have a milder form of alcoholism as they were able to drink longer, function and not die. The younger ones perhaps have a very severe form and therefore are unable to continue. We in AA talk a lot about spirituality and higher powers, but I think we forget about the miraculous nature of sobriety. The "spiritual awakening," the "moment of clarity," the "surrender," the "epiphany," the "emotional/spiritual/psychological bottom," the "moment of nonjudgmental awareness" or whatever name it is given...the moment when we receive the gift of the ability to not drink is what it is. Some have this moment and go to AA, some to church, some nowhere and some other places too innumerable to mentions. In AA we say "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps." However, we know that Bill had his before any steps whatever. I had mine the day before I entered a treatment center and I didn't even know what the steps were. We all have many, many stories about people's spiritual awakening and as the person who had it describes it, we see what they are talking about because it happened to us. Going to AA does not guarantee sobriety any more than not going to AA guarantees continued drinking. I came to AA for the first time in 1984 and I have been sober ever since. I went to at least 1,000 meetings in my first two years. Since that time I have never had a period of time more than a week or so that I have not gone to meetings and I generally go to 3-5 meetings per week. That doesn't necessarily keep me sober, it is just what I do. I love the people, the experience, the blending, the hope, the tears, the laughter....the whole package. Many do not do what I do. It doesn't make them better or worse or more or less likely to drink. At least that is my opinion based on my experience. Having said all of the above, I'm not sure this "Real or Fake Alcoholic/heavy drinker" is an appropriate topic for the AA HistoryLovers. I think the study is very interesting and not surprising to me, but to try and figure this out does not seem "figureoutable." There is tremendous wisdom in the phrase "You're an alcoholic when you say you are." Dave Smith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3013. . . . . . . . . . . . Chauncy C. (length of sobriety) From: Cherie'' P . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/27/2005 9:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I had to reply to this one, as I too met Chauncy at the Thanksgiving Eve Gratitude meeting that Chauncy started 57 years ago. I sat in the front row and felt very honored and humbled to be able to meet this man in person. He told a few stories at the Gratitude meeting, but not about Bill W. I wonder if he has done other open talks in the past where he has spoken about these things, and where could they be purchased if the talks were taped? We do have Serenity Taping here that does alot of AA taping, not sure how long they have been around though. Gary, I was also in Toronto, and yep, Chauncy was there. But was HE standing or was someone standing in his place? In November he didnt look like he could stand up out of his wheelchair to me. Gary, email me privatley, I bet we may have met at some AA event in the area, even if we dont know we did lol Hugs Cherie' One Day At A Time DOS 04-26-01 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3014. . . . . . . . . . . . Xmas messages from Bill W. From: elodge1@peoplepc.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 7:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cherie... Actually I found quite a few ... you can access some of these at this link... http://silkworth.net/pdfBillW/pdfBillW3.html ... Happy Holidays... rick...new hampshire _____________________________ Original message from: Cherie' P I received the following Christmas message from Bill W to the fellowship in 1944. My question is, is this the ONLY year he wrote a letter of this nature? And if others exist, please provide links to them if possible. thanks Hugs Cherie' One Day At A Time DOS 04-26-01 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3015. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Spook Room at Stepping Stones, Dr. Bob and Anne From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 7:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Clarence used to tell me stories about how Bill, Bob and himself had engaged in some spooky endeavors. They invoked some esoteric mumblings and stood at the mirror watching their beards grow (I guess that's kinda like watching grass growing) and Clarence described the trio like forefathers of hippies - sitting around a room in their socks with Bill playing (I think it was) the violin and shuffling to "Mr. Sandman." Clarence never said that Anne was involved in these sessions and it appears from what he said that they were more "stag" sessions. That type of behavior (dabbling into the occult) was very popular in those days and wasn't looked upon as against any sort of mainstream religious belief. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3016. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hank P. and early AA From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 7:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just a quickie because I have to be off to work. Clarence wasn't the only salesperson - Hank was one as well as it appears there were a couple of others on and off. Hank was also married to Dorothy's sisters. Hank was very angry at Bill and AA in general. Clarence used his being a traveling salesperson gig in order to start AA meetings and attend them. Just another quick echo to what Mel stated about our dear brother Merton.... If there is anything out there to be found it will probably be Merton who will find it. I too have found Merton to be the top researcher out there. Thank you! --- greatcir@comcast.net wrote: > In 1947 Hank Parkhurst wrote a letter to Clarence > Snyder regarding their "porcelain moulding" business > complaining that Clarence was "messed up" with AA > and other things and was not working the porcelain > business. > > What was the porcelain moulding business and why was > Hank relying so heavily on Clarence to make the > sales? The letter suggests that Clarence might be > the only salesman. > > There is another letter to Clarence in 1946 where > Hank admits to drinking beer for a couple of weeks > so I assume he was still doing this in 1947. > > God Bless, > > Pete K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3017. . . . . . . . . . . . Meeting makers make it From: tsirish1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 12:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would love to know where the expression "Meeting makers make it" came from. The only reference to it that I have found was a caption to a cartoon in one of the Best of the Grapevines. Please help me find the origin of this statement (which I also believe to be erroneous). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3018. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The 1968-1974 AA comic strips online From: chris fuccione . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 7:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That's intresting I have one question. On the top of them it says that they are AL-ANON Conference Approved Literature. The one that was "IF YOUR PARRENTS DRINK TOO MUCH" and "JANE'S HUSBAND DRINKS TOO MUCH" seems like they would be An AL-ANON pieces ...... but "IT HAPPENED TO ALICE" and "WHAT HAPPENED TO JOE" are both AA Literature. Why is the AL-ANON blurb on the top of them? Chris --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Rudy890 wrote: > > Came across this old strip, a complete set of the 1968-1974 Alcoholics Anonymous comic strips. > > http://www.ep.tc/aa-comics/ > > Just Click On Each Strip After You've Read It > > Hugs > Rudy > > > PLEASE VISIT MY HOME PAGE > http://www.geocities.com/rudy849 > ============================ > rudy890@o... > http://www.cloudmark.com/?rc=9mttaa > ============================ > Consider How Hard It Is To Change Yourself > And You'll Understand What Little Chance > You Have In Trying To Changing Others IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3019. . . . . . . . . . . . James Houck (length of sobriety) From: brian thompson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/28/2005 10:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gary, I met James Houck on September 2nd this year 05. He just celebrated 71 yrs of sobriety on Dec 12th. James will be 100 yrs old on Feb 21 2006. I will also be there for his birthday in Towson, MD. James doesn't claim to have the longest length of sobriety in AA, since he got sober in the Oxford Group and stayed with them for many years. He curtainly has the longest sobriety of anyone alive just not in AA. I was also at the International In Toronto. It was great seeing Chauncey with 63 yrs. This is a great site, Brian T. Camp Verde, AZ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3020. . . . . . . . . . . . James Houck and AA in Towson From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2006 4:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA meeting at Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which was recently passed on to me. James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by certain people in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from modern AA. In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the Oxford Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were participating in their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is no sign that he had any accurate inside information about how early AA actually worked with alcoholics. All he would have known was what was being said by the Oxford Group members who were hostile to the special mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the early AA people out of the Oxford Group. We already knew that. What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about James H.'s claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of being an expert witness on the way modern AA operates. James says that he has "spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences," which means that Wally P. and others have taken him around to give talks to AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of people does not give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group actually works with alcoholics. James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know anything about how a real AA meeting would operate in the modern period. JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material in the Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the way Wally has been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck to back up his own claims about the history of early AA. See http://www.aabacktobasics.com/ In response to Wally's questioning in http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsforjames h.ht\ ml [1] James Houck said: ______________________________ "Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA program of the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group program of the 1930's. AA has changed over the years -- today's program is very different from the "original." For the past 20 years, I have been speaking at AA meetings, workshops and conventions about the "original" program of recovery. My Sobriety date is 12/12/34. I am a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as did many other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard, Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with alcoholics as well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my granddaughter to AA meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already changed. It wasn't anything like the original program. While I was able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church. There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I have spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share guidance with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement home where I am living." ______________________________ When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of Maryland, at Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in Towson to see what that AA group was like, and to see how closely connected James H. actually was to the AA program there. Are the Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the United States? Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he know lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going to regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson AA accurate? What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that James H. has been making. Although James H. claims that he has attended numerous AA meetings at the Towson United Methodist Church, and is very familiar with the way their AA meetings function, JM could not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even knew who James was. He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group which was doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of people sober. It was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant, ineffectual, and demoralized people who knew nothing about AA's Historic Heritage, and who were achieving only a 1% to 3% success rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know anything about modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has been getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA. There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James H.'s testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have discovered needs to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply going to give JM's report to Kurtz as he wrote it: ______________________________ Hi, Glenn! Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James Houck, authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking my opinion about his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford Group. In the past, I have read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an authentic or accredited historian! I rely on my old friend, Ernie Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the item along to Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between the claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure in AA, yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD, Methodist Church is emphasized. I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in Bethesda, MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all of whom live in this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a meeting of what Wally presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size the old guy up in person, or at least learn a bit more first hand. On receiving my report, Ernie feels you might find this information of interest. ********* Ernie! I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to "James Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in a maiden voyage onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has provided information, and I have joined, but I haven't figured the interface out just yet. I might send the information I'm sending you now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else on the list might be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery, and I should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the nonsense. I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on Thursday, December 27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of which 8 identified themselves as "home group members." Most of the rest were young newcomers, as the meeting is a newcomers meeting, rotating weekly through discussion of the first three Steps. There were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works, Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in to give a 20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year of sobriety, and one 17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and that was it. I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the Back to Basics movement. They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former member until he recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the group. He has apparently come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one knew for sure. They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was asking about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative. The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group veteran who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know something about all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw little utility to pursuing this matter any more. My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate numbers cited for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own extensive experience in traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is clearly alive and well, at least in my own environment .... That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after Bill Wilson did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance through the Oxford Movement, is a minor curiosity. ********** I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you, again, for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for me. And I hope you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New Year. JM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3021. . . . . . . . . . . . Real alcoholics From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2005 1:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi AA History Lovers, The recent discussions on 'real alcoholics' reminded me of the following study and I thought I would share it with you. Hope it 'fits' the AA History Lovers essence. I have wondered for some years about the referral rate and criteria for referral to AA. Additionally, I have questioned the reported incidence of alcoholism in the general population. A study in 2004 that compared alcohol dependence and alcohol abuse found that up to a third of alcoholics did not abuse alcohol. That is a third of alcoholics did not drink at the damaging levels decided by health authorities (often defined as above 3 drinks a day for men and 2 drinks a day for women). If these alcoholics are not being identified by generally accepted questionnaires to identify alcohol dependence then they are not being referred for treatment or AA. The same report makes that very point. The study; Hasin DS, Grant BF. (2004) The co-occurrence of DSM-IV alcohol abuse in DSM-IV alcohol dependence. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2004 Sep;61(9):891-6. RESULTS: Among respondents with current alcohol dependence, 33.7% did not additionally meet criteria for alcohol abuse (29.0% among men and 46.1% among women). This is confirmation that what AA says; Its not what, where, how much or who with; it's the effect that alcohol has that defines alcoholism. Perhaps the 'success' rates of AA and the referral rates are being affected by healthcare workers assessing 'alcohol abuse' as alcoholism and not using the AA criteria - thus inflating referral rates to AA. An alcohol abuser (non-alcoholic) is unlikely to identify with AA members. This has all sorts of implications for perceptions of AA. The Big Book states; "To be gravely affected, one does not necessarily have to drink a long time nor take the quantities some of us have. This is particularly true of women. Potential female alcoholics often turn into the real thing and are gone beyond recall in a few years." (AA, pp 33). If the above is kept in mind perhaps we would reach some of the others who are not now being referred to AA. Robin F. Brisbane, Australia www.brieftsf.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3022. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hank P. and early AA From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2006 7:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Pete, As you probably know Clarence and Hank were brothers in law. After the stock redemption/royalty sequence Hank carried a lifelong resentment because the agreement was that only Dr. Bob would receive any proceeds from the book. Dr. Bob did not want the royalty. Bill insisted that he take it to avoid a potential claim by Hank. (Legally this last assertation by Bill does not make sense but could be convincing coming from a person with most of law school completed to someone with no legal training.) Shortly thereafter Bill asked to "borrow" Dr. Bob's royalty if he didn't need it. One of the two letters housed at GSO became public and made it onto the interernet: See http://www.aagso.org/1941/index.htm As is often the case particularly with AA History, and perhaps much of history, one document is available where the surrounding documents which establish context are not. I was fortunate enough to have read and transcribed all the documents at GSO and Stepping Stones from this era for a yet unpublished manuscript I've written. My opinion, (emphasis on the last word), is that the issue is not that Bill received a royalty, but that Hank did not. (and that Hank has a innocent living decendent that genuinely is in need presently and Bill does not). As to the "porcelain buisness" to which you inquire Hank began a buisness manufacturing Toby Mugs in the late 40's for which Clarence was a salesman. You may recall the large decorative beer mugs often sold in airport gift shops awhile back that had a pirates head as the vessel and a parrot for a handle. There were many other head/handle caricatures that being one example. The letterhead lists "Henry Parkhusrst, Sales Management, Manufacturing, 1270 Ocean Avenue, West Haven, Conn." Interestingly there is no "Inc." or "Co." after his name or the pseudonym "Henry Giffen, Fine Porcelains" on the letterhead indicating that he probably learned the legalities of such use after the failure to register the uncorporated buisness names of Henry G. Parkhurst, Inc., Honor Dealers, Stainox Inc., Sharing Inc. or, until 1940, Works Publishing Company. Note that "Giffen" is Hank's middle name. In addition to Henry Giffen, Fine Porcelains there are two other entity/people listed under Sales Management. These are, Stanley Ballard and Co, Hand Made Porcelains, and Lumen Kelsey, Sculptured Porcelains. These reflect possible other sales reps besides Clarence although the collection of correspondence indicates the former as more of a resseller. I've been told by a reliable source that the actual small manufacturing plant was near Trenton, New Jersey and was also shown a photograph of it. Hank speaks of kilns in the correspondence. The West Haven, Conn. address is a bit of an anomaly as Hank's return address and cancelled envelopes to him invarialy indicate General Mail Facility, West Orange, N.J. as his place of pickup. I doubt anyone could argue that both Hank and Clarence had somewhat abrasive personalities. This often makes their correspondence somewhat humerous, (depending, of course, on the readers sense of humor). Neither held much back. For example one letter begans: "Listen Snyder; Don't ever write me another letter like this one. I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THIS KIND OF CRAP FROM YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. This is the second time you have shot off at me like this - AND THE LAST." The passage you refer to states that Hank admits to drinking a few beers for a few weeks and that he found it negative and quit. This is the only written record I have seen of his drinking during the early 40's thru his death. Interviews years ago I had with his surviving relatives indicated multiple year periods of abstinence followed by binges. He was reportedly abstinent for the entire period of his third marriage to a Houston Oil heiress whom was the "real love of his life". She died of a lung disease and this is where he obtained the money for the $40,000 chicken coup I discussed earlier. With respect to the implication that HAnk's drinking somehow voided his rights in the book, it is necessary to remember that nobody has the right to illegally deprieve someone of their property because someone is drinking. Of course the situation which Bill found himself was that someone drinking would not be good PR for a book on how to stop. However the agreement that neither would take a royalty deprieves Hank's living relatives of a rightful inheritence. There is a solution to this issue which would cost a fraction of one years expeses paid for the present copyright litigation or alot less than one year's royalty payout to others. -merton --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > In 1947 Hank Parkhurst wrote a letter to Clarence Snyder regarding their "porcelain moulding" business complaining that Clarence was "messed up" with AA and other things and was not working the porcelain business. > > What was the porcelain moulding business and why was Hank relying so heavily on Clarence to make the sales? The letter suggests that Clarence might be the only salesman. > > There is another letter to Clarence in 1946 where Hank admits to drinking beer for a couple of weeks so I assume he was still doing this in 1947. > > God Bless, > > Pete K. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3023. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Memories of Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2006 3:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 10:08 12/24/2005 , Glenn Chessnut wrote: >Ralph's niece told me that he died because a doctor gave him an >airsickness shot with a needle that had been improperly steriziled (that >was back in the days when doctor's reused hypodermic needles over and over >again). Apparently the person on whom the doctor had used the needle the >previous time had hepatitis. They rushed Ralph to the hospital in >Owensboro, Kentucky, where one of the doctors was an AA member, and the >only physician whom Ralph trusted by now. I am old enough to have been given many shots with reused needles. It is my recollection that normal autoclaving killed almost all of the bacteria and viruses but higher temperatures were needed to kill certain ones like some forms of hepatitis and most autoclaves did not do this, so standard practice of the day did not eliminate this risk. My physician in the period of the late 50s/early 60s had an autoclave that was capable of achieving conditions that completely sterilized the needles. My point is that Fr. Pfau was not infected due to neglect per se. My understanding is that needles used on hepatitis patients were either not used again or sterilized in autoclaves capable of destroying the hepatitis vector. Tommy in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3024. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: James Houck and AA in Towson From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/6/2006 9:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been reading these entires with some mild amusement. Having lived in the Towson area for most of my life (age 54) and having been a grateful member of AA for over 25 years, I know who this James H is but he is a non-entity to Baltimore or Towson AA. He does not go to meetings and the old timers don't know him (except by the odd story about him). I learned more about him from the Time Magazine article last year then anything else. I say God Bless him- but don't look to him for anything other than an eccentric old fellow that has some interesting stories. But he is no AA icon around here or anywhere else. Rob W. >>> glennccc@sbcglobal.net 1/3/2006 4:50 PM >>> A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA meeting at Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which was recently passed on to me. James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by certain people in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from modern AA. In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the Oxford Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were participating in their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is no sign that he had any accurate inside information about how early AA actually worked with alcoholics. All he would have known was what was being said by the Oxford Group members who were hostile to the special mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the early AA people out of the Oxford Group. We already knew that. What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about James H.'s claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of being an expert witness on the way modern AA operates. James says that he has "spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences," which means that Wally P. and others have taken him around to give talks to AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of people does not give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group actually works with alcoholics. James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know anything about how a real AA meeting would operate in the modern period. JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material in the Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the way Wally has been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck to back up his own claims about the history of early AA. See http://www.aabacktobasics.com/ In response to Wally's questioning in http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsforjames h.ht\ ml [1] James Houck said: ______________________________ "Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA program of the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group program of the 1930's. AA has changed over the years -- today's program is very different from the "original." For the past 20 years, I have been speaking at AA meetings, workshopps and conventions about the "original" program of recovery. My Sobriety date is 12/12/34. I am a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as did many other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard, Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with alcoholics as well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my granddaughter to AA meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already changed. It wasn't anything like the original program. While I was able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church. There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I have spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share guidance with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement home where I am living." ______________________________ When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of Maryland, at Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in Towson to see what that AA group was like, and to see how closely connected James H. actually was to the AA program there. Are the Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the United States? Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he know lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going to regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson AA accurate? What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that James H. has been making. Although James H. claims that he has attended numerous AA meetings at the Towson United Methodist Church, and is very familiar with the way their AA meetings function, JM could not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even knew who James was. He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group which was doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of people sober. It was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant, ineffectual, and demoralized people who knew nothing about AA's Historic Heritage, and who were achieving only a 1% to 3% success rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know anything about modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has been getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA. There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James H.'s testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have discovered needs to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply going to give JM's report to Kurtz as he wrote it: ______________________________ Hi, Glenn! Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James Houck, authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking my opinion about his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford Group. In the past, I have read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an authentic or accredited historian! I rely on my old friend, Ernie Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the item along to Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between the claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure in AA, yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD, Methodist Church is emphasized. I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in Bethesda, MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all of whom live in this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a meeting of what Wally presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size the old guy up in person, or at least learn a bit more first hand. On receiving my report, Ernie feels you might find this information of interest. ********* Ernie! I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to "James Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in a maiden voyage onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has provided information, and I have joined, but I haven't figured the interface out just yet. I might send the information I'm sending you now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else on the list might be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery, and I should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the nonsense. I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on Thursday, December 27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of which 8 identified themselves as "home group members." Most of the rest were young newcomers, as the meeting is a newcomers meeting, rotating weekly through discussion of the first three Steps. There were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works, Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in to give a 20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year of sobriety, and one 17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and that was it. I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the Back to Basics movement. They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former member until he recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the group. He has apparently come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one knew for sure. They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was asking about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative. The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group veteran who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know something about all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw little utility to pursuing this matter any more. My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate numbers cited for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own extensive experience in traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is clearly alive and well, at least in my own environment .... That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after Bill Wilson did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance through the Oxford Movement, is a minor curiosity. ********** I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you, again, for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for me. And I hope you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New Year. JM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3025. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcohol left in food after cooking From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2006 10:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA Around Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion. Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how much alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA Number 5" in Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA". Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of fairly new folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in the food, it is ALL cooked out!!!!" For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the results of that previous study? All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3026. . . . . . . . . . . . Send individual comments directly to the group member From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 5:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To the members of the AAHistoryLovers: The way the Pending Messages are displayed in the Yahoo Group system, there is no way I can forward a message to another member of the group simply by pushing a button. I would have to cut the message out, and paste it into an email on my own email system and then send that to the other group member. So if you want to contact another group member in order to comment on that person's posting, it would be greatly appreciated if you could look up the other person's email address (which is sometimes time consuming to look up, but is what I would have to do) and send your message to that person directly. I'm beginning to get overwhelmed with multitudes of messages sent in to the Pending Messages board which are in fact messages to other individual group members instead of messages for general posting. I know that in chat groups there are a lot of back and forth messages like that, but please remember that one of the central guidelines of the AAHistoryLovers is that we do not want to function as a chat group. Thanks much! Glenn Chesnut (moderator) South Bend, Indiana, USA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3027. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/3/2006 11:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The chain of messages on the term "real alcoholic" seems to be straying away from history. There are certain terms that are likely best to avoid in this forum since they tend to lead far more to endless un-retractable debate over semantics rather than clarity. Among those tedious terms are "recovered vs recovering", "spiritual vs religious" and "real alcoholic vs problem drinker or vs whatever." Now having said that, let's try to provide a historical perspective that culminated in the 12and12 (1953) and originated in the Big Book (1935-1939). It is the matter of AA laying out the welcome mat for those prospects who were not low bottom drunks (as were the very early members). In the 12and12 essay on Step One (page 23) it states: "Alcoholics Anonymous," published when our membership was small, dealt with low-bottom cases only. Many less desperate alcoholics tried A.A., but did not succeed because they could not make the admission of hopelessness. It is a tremendous satisfaction to record that in the following years this changed. Alcoholics who still had their health, their families, their jobs, and even two cars in the garage, began to recognize their alcoholism. As this trend grew, they were joined by young people who were scarcely more than potential alcoholics. They were spared that last ten or fifteen years of literal hell the rest of us had gone through. Since Step One requires an admission that our lives have become unmanageable, how could people such as these take this Step? There are quite a few mentions of the term "real alcoholic" in the Big Book as noted below --[in brackets for emphasis]-- Page 21: But what about the --[real alcoholic]--? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink. Pages 23-24: The tragic truth is that if the man be a --[real alcoholic]--, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost control. At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it is suspected. Page 30 MOST OF us have been unwilling to admit we were --[real alcoholics]--. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death. We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed. We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no --[real alcoholic]-- ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals-usually brief-were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better. Page 31: Despite all we can say, many who are --[real alcoholics]-- are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people! Page 34: As we look back, we feel we had gone on drinking many years beyond the point where we could quit on our will power. If anyone questions whether he has entered this dangerous area, let him try leaving liquor alone for one year. If he is a --[real alcoholic]-- and very far advanced, there is scant chance of success. In the early days of our drinking we occasionally remained sober for a year or more, becoming serious drinkers again later. Though you may be able to stop for a considerable period, you may yet be a potential alcoholic. We think few, to whom this book will appeal, can stay dry anything like a year. Some will be drunk the day after making their resolutions; most of them within a few weeks. Page 35: We told him what we knew of alcoholism and the answer we had found. He made a beginning. His family was re-assembled, and he began to work as a salesman for the business he had lost through drinking. All went well for a time, but he failed to enlarge his spiritual life. To his consternation, he found himself drunk half a dozen times in rapid succession. On each of these occasions we worked with him, reviewing carefully what had happened. He agreed he was a --[real alcoholic]-- and in a serious condition. He knew he faced another trip to the asylum if he kept on. Moreover, he would lose his family for whom he had a deep affection. Page 92: If you are satisfied that he is a --[real alcoholic]--, begin to dwell on the hopeless feature of the malady. Show him, from your own experience, how the queer mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power. Don't, at this stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his drinking, tell him that possibly he can-if he is not too alcoholic. But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little chance he can recover by himself. Page 109: Two: Your husband is showing lack of control, for he is unable to stay on the water wagon even when he wants to. He often gets entirely out of hand when drinking. He admits this is true, but is positive that he will do better. He has begun to try, with or without your cooperation, various means of moderating or staying dry. Maybe he is beginning to lose his friends. His business may suffer somewhat. He is worried at times, and is becoming aware that he cannot drink like other people. He sometimes drinks in the morning and through the day also, to hold his nervousness in check. He is remorseful after serious drinking bouts and tells you he wants to stop. But when he gets over the spree, he begins to think once more how he can drink moderately next time. We think this person is in danger. These are the earmarks of a --[real alcoholic]--. Perhaps he can still tend to business fairly well. He has by no means ruined everything. As we say among ourselves, "He wants to want to stop." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- Des, Let me try my hand at answering your question. It was common in early AA to distinguish between three different kinds of drinkers. Let's call them Types 1, 2, and 3 for the purposes of this discussion. Sometimes they were called (Type 1) "social drinkers," (Type 2) "heavy drinkers," and (Type 3) "alcoholics." Richmond Walker, in Twenty Four Hours a Day (1948), referred to the last category as "merry go round drinkers." Mrs. Marty Mann makes this same kind of distinction in the book she wrote for the National Council on Alcoholism. Our South Bend good old timer, Brownie, makes that three-fold distinction in the material about him in The St. Louis Gambler and the Railroad Man. Dr. Jellinek (and many others) tried to make distinctions of this same sort during the 1940's and 1950's. It had been noted that some alcoholics were clearly drinking alcoholically from the time they took their very first drink. The first time they had a chance at a bottle (even if they were just teenagers), they drank themselves rip roaring drunk, and they just kept on drinking that way from that point on. But other alcoholics started out as social drinkers, and then gradually began drinking more and more, until finally after enough years they crossed some invisible line, and became clearly and unambiguously alcoholic drinkers. Psychologists who study alcoholism and public health agencies which are concerned with alcoholism have found that they also have to make some kind of distinction between people who are drinking a lot, and people who are alcoholics. You cannot measure the amount of alcohol that is consumed and use that to determine who is a heavy drinker and who is an alcoholic. All sorts of fancy definitions have been dreamed up by psychologists, medical doctors, and so on, to try to identify where you make the division between Type Two heavy drinkers (or "alcohol abusers" or whatever term you're using) and Type Three genuine alcoholics. Let us not get into quarrels about what precise terminology to use here, because there have been a variety of different terms used over the years. But as far as I can see, the basic distinction historically has been a simple one. A Type Two heavy drinker (or alcohol abuser, or whatever) who is given sufficient reason to stop drinking, will be able to stop on his own simply by using will power. Maybe his doctor puts him on a heart medication and tells him that he has to take the medication to save his life, and that this medication cannot be mixed with alcohol in the system. Or something in his life puts him in a situation where he will get in enormous trouble if he does not quit. So he simply grits his teeth, and stops drinking. Just like that. Permanently. A Type Three true alcoholic will find that he cannot stop drinking on his own, by his own will power, no matter how serious the consequences are going to be. His wife says that she will leave him, his employer says that he will fire him, the judge says that he will give him twenty years in prison the next time he drives drunk, his doctor says that he will be dead within a year if he keeps on drinking. But no matter what it is, a true alcoholic will STILL keep drinking, in spite of all that, if he is trying to do it by himself by his own willpower. If you listen to tape recordings of the good old timers, you will find numerous examples of alcoholics whose drinking was destroying them totally, who still could not stop on their own, simply by using will power. One thing which muddies the waters nowadays, is that (beginning with Dr. Jellinek's famous chart back in the 1940's) the experts on alcoholism have assembled data on the way that the disease of alcoholism progresses, where they can spot the symptoms of Type Three chronic alcoholism much earlier than they could in the 1930's and 1940's. So nowadays we can sometimes identify a person as definitely a chronic alcoholic early in the progression of the disease, and send that person off to AA, and save that person an awful lot of misery and heartbreak, EVEN THOUGH in early AA they would not have allowed that person to attend AA meetings because they would have felt that this person's drinking did not qualify him or her to be a "true alcoholic" yet. So is this particular individual a Type Two heavy drinker who is getting himself or herself in trouble, and maybe needs some encouragement to quit doing that from a psychotherapist or someone like that? Or is this particular individual a Type Three alcoholic EARLY in the progression of the disease, who hasn't gotten himself or herself in major trouble yet, but who nevertheless is going to need AA in order to quit? In current AA jargon, we would sometimes call this kind of person a "high bottom" drunk. So what Fiona was asking was, were the people in that statistical table who went to AA meetings for a year and then quit going to meetings but were still sober even five years later, actually Type Three alcoholics? Or were they Type Two heavy drinkers who got sober in AA meetings, but actually would have been able to get sober all on their own anyway, just by using their own willpower? In other words, were they Type Two heavy drinkers who had been misdiagnosed as early stage Type Three alcoholics? The issue at stake is, is it EVER safe for a Type Three genuine alcoholic to quit going to meetings? If they quit going to meetings, will Type Three alcoholics ALWAYS inevitably go back to their alcoholic drinking sooner or later? The good old timers in my part of Indiana say (on the basis of their many years of experience) that Type Three genuine alcoholics will ALWAYS go back to drinking eventually if they quit going to AA meetings, with the one exception that a few do manage to use church going as a substitute for AA meetings, and can stay sober that way. Fiona's question is not some nit picking question about numbers and statistics, but a word of warning about something which could cost alcoholics their lives if they make the wrong decision. Fiona is warning all of us (based in her case of her knowledge of Irish alcoholics): do NOT assume on the basis of those 3 and 5 year survival rate statistics which were recently posted that you will have some hope of staying sober if you quit going to AA meetings. Given the fact that Fiona's Irish alcoholics and my own Hoosier alcoholics here in Indiana seem to suffer the same fate if they quit going to AA meetings, I would advise anyone reading these AAHL postings to take Fiona's warning with deadly seriousness. Her warning is simple: don't use those 3 and 5 year survival statistics to play games with your life, if you are a true alcoholic. I would add an additional warning to hers. Alcoholism is cunning, baffling, and powerful. Also patient, sneaky, and lying. Many a true alcoholic here in my part of Indiana has gone to AA meetings and stayed sober for a long time (maybe even ten years of more) until the voice of Mr. Alcoholism inside that person's head has started murmuring, "You know, I haven't had any trouble staying off the booze these past ten years, and you know, I'm not really like some of these other people in the AA meetings. I'm more intelligent than they are, have more will power and self control. I never fell as low as they fell. Maybe I'm not really an alcoholic at all. Maybe I was just a heavy drinker, you know, somebody who just got carried away sometimes. But I'm so much older and wiser now. You know, I think it would be safe now, after ten years, to go out and have a little social drink." We have a lot of retreads here in Hoosier AA who let themselves listen to that lying voice inside their heads, and went back out drinking, and then had to suffer years of misery before they finally came dragging themselves back in the doors of AA, admitting finally, "O.K., I guess that I (even I) actually am an alcoholic of some sort, the kind who needs AA meetings if I want to live instead of dying." I should also say that the people in Indiana who go back out and try it again after ten years or so, are people who tell us later on that in fact they never worked the steps, even though they went to meetings. It is particularly doing a really thorough and deep reaching Fourth Step which is vital if you want people to give you the ultimate accolade at your funeral, and say with enormous respect in their voices, "he died sober," "she died sober." So to Fiona's warning, I will add my own. Don't use those 3 and 5 year survival rate statistics which were posted to play games with your life. Keep on going to meetings. Keep up constant contact with your fellow AA members. Do a real Fourth Step and ferret out all of the resentment and fear in your life, and figure out what all your character defects are, so you won't be tempted to look down your nose at ANYBODY in an AA meeting, thinking yourself superior to that person in any way whatsoever. http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html And remember that EVEN IF someone could prove that 33-1/3 % of genuine alcoholics could eventually quit going to AA meetings and still be sober 3 years later, or even 5 years later, that is till playing Russian roulette with a six gun with four chambers loaded. And 5 years isn't 10 years or 15 years. Glenn C. South Bend, Indiana, U.S. (A REAL alcoholic, sober today ONLY by the grace of God and the help of the people in this fellowship, who is not planning on jumping out of the lifeboat, thank you!) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3028. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/4/2006 7:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A response to Message 3012 from Dave Smith (pmds at aol.com) From (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) An interesting point but I take issue with your primary premise that alcoholism is a purely physical disease like diabetes. All of what you say is true as Dr. Silkworth points out in his Opinion and the "phenomenon of craving" which develops after the first drink. However you teach a diabetic to adjust his insulin level and diet and "problem solved". If you tell the alcoholic just not to take the first drink (after hospitalization) because thats where the phenomenon begans and problem solved right??????? Its common sense, no first drink no problem????? You tell someone allergic to strawberries, no strawberries and they'll usually avoid them, same thing with booze, right????? The real problem with alcohol is in the mind, NOT THE BODY. Its the insanity of being without any ability not to take the first drink after a period of sobriety. Its the mental obsession not the compulsion that requires 15 month long trips to the treatment center. Thats what the chapter "There is a Solution" tells us. Much of what you say is true. Bill never says AA is the only way. Anyone who reads the Jerry McAuley books from the late 1800's knows that people were recovering from alcoholism thru spiritual experience long before AA. And Bill also supported research into any medical research that would help. If you look closely at his life you'll see that Bill formally divorced AA in 1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE TRYING TO HELP THE ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID NOT WORK. Thats really what the sub-secret LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal. Its also what the enormous work he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin B-3 and its effect on Alcoholism. I'm not a big Bill Wilson flagwaver. Please understand that I have serious issues. But with alcoholism its not a football game between the AA's and the non-AA's. Its Alcoholics who have decided thats what they are (or whatever label you want to put on someone who can't stop drinking when they want to) vs. the mental obsession that somehow, someway, we'll be able to drink without the consequenses of the one way elevator ride. The easy way (my opinion) is to become like a leaf on the ground fighting nothing for a year surrounded by people who have succeeded somehow. No fight, just let the wind blow us around for awhile. (Of course this is always when the significant other we've been waiting for our entire life shows up and we entangle ourselves - or "we're just going to be friends" - or "listen, its just sex, not a relationship". We're complicated. Our minds tell us strange things which we actually believe (but nobody else does). -merton ______________________________________ In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Dave Smith pmds@a... wrote: > > It seems to me that trying to make alcoholics different from heavy drinkers is an attempt to make black and white out of something which is most likely gray. > > The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that alcoholism is primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility. Physiologically alcoholics metabolize alcohol and mind altering chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of the population (in the United States, in other places it is higher or lower. > > It appears that the rate of alcoholism is lower in cultures that have had alcohol the longest period of time and higher in those cultures that have had it the least amount of time.) See for example Under the Influence by Milam et al. > > If, therefore, alcoholism is a real disease then it should be viewed as a real disease. > > Some diabetics can control their diabetes by diet, others by diet and oral medication and others by multiple daily injections. Each one is a "real" diabetic, it is the disease itself that is different in different people. Some milder, some more severe. > > Some alcoholics get sober in their teens, others in their 80's and all ages in between. Are we to decide which are real alcoholics? Logically it would seem that those in their 80's may have a milder form of alcoholism as they were able to drink longer, function and not die. The younger ones perhaps have a very severe form and therefore are unable to continue. > > We in AA talk a lot about spirituality and higher powers, but I think we forget about the miraculous nature of sobriety. The "spiritual awakening," the "moment of clarity," the "surrender," the "epiphany," the "emotional/spiritual/psychological bottom," the "moment of nonjudgmental awareness" or whatever name it is given...the moment when we receive the gift of the ability to > not drink is what it is. > > Some have this moment and go to AA, some to church, some nowhere and some other places too innumerable to mentions. In AA we say "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps." However, we know that Bill had his before any steps whatever. I had mine the day before I entered a treatment center and I didn't even know what the steps were. We all have many, > many stories about people's spiritual awakening and as the person who had it describes it, we see what they are talking about because it happened to us. > > Going to AA does not guarantee sobriety any more than not going to AA guarantees continued drinking. I came to AA for the first time in 1984 and I have been sober ever since. I went to at least 1,000 meetings in my first two years. Since that time I have never had a period of time more than a week or so that I have not gone to meetings and I generally go to 3-5 meetings per week. That doesn't necessarily keep me sober, it is just what I do. I love the people, the experience, the blending, the hope, the tears, the laughter....the whole package. Many do not do what I do. It doesn't make them better or worse or more or less likely to drink. At least that is my opinion based on my experience. > > Having said all of the above, I'm not sure this "Real or Fake > Alcoholic/heavy drinker" is an appropriate topic for the AA HistoryLovers. I think the study is very interesting and not surprising to me, but to try and figure this out does not seem "figureoutable." There is tremendous wisdom in the phrase "You're an alcoholic when you say you are." > > Dave Smith > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3029. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcohol left in food after cooking From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 2:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I got this guide online: http://www.betterendings.org/Recipes/cookal.htm Cooking With Alcohol When cooking with beer or alcohol, does all of the alcohol evaporate? No. The following chart should be helpful. PREPARATION METHOD / AlcoholRetained No heat application, immediate consumption 100% No heat application, overnight storage 70% Alcohol ingredient added to boiling liquid, and removed from heat 85% Flamed 75% Baked, approximately 25 minutes, alcohol ingredient on surface of mixture (not stirred in) 45% Baked/simmered, alcohol ingredient stirred into mixture 15 minutes / 40% 30 minutes / 35% 1 hour / 25% 1.5 hours / 20% 2 hours / 10% 2.5 hours / 5% source: Minnesota Nutrition Council Newsletter What can I substitute if a recipe calls for beverages with alcohol? The best, but not always the easiest solution, is to find another recipe without alcohol that will fill the need. If the beer or wine is a major ingredient in your recipe, or if a large quantity is called for, it makes sense not to attempt a substitute. The results could be unpleasant. In such a case, look for another recipe. Often the alcohol required will be a small amount, such as a couple of tablespoons, and in this case there are several substitutions: In recipes having plenty of seasonings, plan water may be substituted. Both the alcohol and a substitute may be omitted if the liquid isn't needed for a gravy or sauce. When cooking with fish, an equal amount of bottled or fresh clam or fish stock may be substituted. Just remember, bottled clam juice and some fish stocks are high in salt. Some people use white grape juice with fish. Other substitutes include chicken or beef broth Juice such as lemon, lime, apple or cranberry are all possibilities. Reprinted from Fall 99 Issue Byerly's Bag Doug B. JOHN e REID wrote: > The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA > Around Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion. > > Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how > much alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA > Number 5" in Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA". > > Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of > fairly new folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in > the food, it is ALL cooked out!!!!" > > For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the > results of that previous study? > > All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Addiction recovery Recovery from Addiction recovery program addiction center Christian Alcoholics addiction recovery anonymous > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > + Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3030. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Alcohol left in food after cooking From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 8:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the name of this AA Grapevine article or when it was published? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of JOHN e REID Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:00 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Alcohol left in food after cooking The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA Around Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion. Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how much alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA Number 5" in Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA". Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of fairly new folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in the food, it is ALL cooked out!!!!" For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the results of that previous study? All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3031. . . . . . . . . . . . DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2006 11:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If we are going to discuss the distinction that is made between "Alcohol Abuse [305]" and "Alcohol Depencence [303.9]" it is useful to look at the diagnostic definitions in what is called "DSM-IV" or "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4" Here are two references to those definitions. Note: NIAAA (National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism) only classifies "Alcohol Depencence" as "Alcoholism" The two diagnoses are mutually exclusive. ---------------------- ---------------------- http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/alcohol/diagnosis.shtml Diagnosis Friends and family members of the alcoholic are often the first to notice problems and seek professional help. Many times, the alcoholic does not realize the severity of the problem or denies it. Some signs cannot go unnoticed, such as loss of a job, family problems, or citations for driving under the influence of alcohol. Dependence is indicated by symptoms such as withdrawal, injuries from accidents, or blackouts. The American Psychiatric Association has developed strict criteria for the clinical diagnosis of abuse and dependence. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual -- IV (DSM-IV) defines abuse as: * A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by one (or more) of the following, occurring within a 12-month period: 1. recurrent substance use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, home (e.g., repeated absences or poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related absences, suspensions, or expulsions from school; neglect of children or household) 2. recurrent substance use in situations in which it is physically hazardous (e.g., driving an automobile or operating a machine when impaired by substance use) 3. recurrent substance-related legal problems (e.g., arrests for substance-related disorderly conduct) 4. continued substance use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the substance (e.g., arguments with spouse about consequences of intoxication, physical fights) * The symptoms have never met the criteria for Substance Dependence for this class of substances. [DSM-IV, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4. Washington DC: American Psychiatric Association (AMA). 1994.] Most often, abuse is diagnosed in individuals who recently began using alcohol. Over time, abuse may progress to dependence. However, some alcohol users abuse alcohol for long periods without developing dependence. Dependence is suspected when alcohol use is accompanied by signs of the following: * Abuse * Compulsive drinking behavior * Tolerance * Withdrawal DSM-IV defines dependence as: * A maladaptive pattern of substance use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period: 1. tolerance, as defined by either of the following: o a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect o markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of substance 2. withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following: o the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance o the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms 3. the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended 4. there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use 5. a great deal of time is spent in activities to obtain the substance, use the substance, or recover from its effects 6. important social, occupational or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use 7. the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g., continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption) [DSM-IV, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4. Washington DC: American Psychiatric Association (AMA). 1994.] ---------------------- ---------------------- http://www.fpnotebook.com/PSY91.htm # DSM-IV Alcohol Abuse (1 or more criteria for over 1 year) 1. Role Impairment (e.g. failed work or home obligations) 2. Hazardous use (e.g. Driving while intoxicated) 3. Legal problems related to alcohol use 4. Social or interpersonal problems due to alcohol # DSM-IV Alcohol Dependence (3 criteria for over 1 year) 1. Tolerance (increased drinking to achieve same effect) 2. Alcohol Withdrawal signs or symptoms 3. Drinking more than intended 4. Unsuccessful attempts to cut down on use 5. Excessive time related to alcohol (obtaining, hangover) 6. Impaired social or work activities due to alcohol 7. Use despite physical or psychological consequences # References 1. (1994) DSM-IV, APA, p. 181-3 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3032. . . . . . . . . . . . Green Pond, NJ From: Russ S . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2006 3:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear History Lovers, I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey. I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start? Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3033. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 6:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of defining guideline for alcoholism one must remember the following: The DSM does state that a person can remain in total remission from alcohol dependence and continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit the criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence. Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does not define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous and the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent. From: Mitchell K. (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) ________________________ Note from the moderator: Mitchell K. is one of our best AA historians, and an expert on the history of early AA in the Cleveland area, where there were more AA members at one point in early AA history than in either Akron or the New York area. He is responding here to two earlier messages. Message 2973 "Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates" from Ernest Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu)contained an interesting recent study by social scientists of how people who have been treated for alcoholism are doing 3 and 5 years afterwards, measured against how many AA meetings they have been attending. Message 3031 "DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) " from (ny-aa at att.net) laid out one of the standard definitions of alcoholism used by social scientists, in this case the one currently used by psychiatrists and psychotherapists in the U.S. for diagnostic purposes, to help understand how modern social scientists would determine which people in a group whom they were studying were actually alcoholics. This can help us to understand the kinds of criteria used in the study in Message 2973. Mitchell K. in this present message (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) points out that NEITHER the social scientists who made the 3 and 5 year study, NOR the psychiatrists who wrote the DSM, were employing exactly the same kinds of definitions of "real alcoholism" that are given in various places within the historic heritage of Alcoholics Anonymous. Mitchell's warning is important, and right on target. The AAHistoryLovers is not the right kind of forum for attacking the social scientists for not using AA definitions. We have worked hard over the years to try to keep the AAHL from becoming just a chat group (there are already plenty of AA chat groups on the internet). Those members of the AAHL who are AA members simply need to remember that the social scientists are not necessarily using AA definitions, as Mitchell K. points out, and that any AA members reading articles written by social scientists will need to take that into account in evaluating that data. Glenn C. (moderator) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3034. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: James Houck and AA in Towson From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 7:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Unfortunately, I believe there is a much more serious and disconcerting side to James H and his affiliation as the poster child for the "Back to Basics" (B2B) organization. B2B propagates revisionist AA history in a classic example of manufacturing an idyllic scenario portraying the AA program of Recovery in the "old days" and then manufacturing a contrasting scenario bemoaning that "today" it's all different and has gone downhill. B2B engages in four practices that I find very troubling in that they present fiction as history. The B2B practices are: (1) portrayal of the figurative as the literal (2) broad brush portrayal of the exception as the rule (3) portrayal of simple associations as established cause and effect and (4) portrayal of James H's duration of dry time to be the equivalent of his degree of accuracy and breadth of knowledge. B2B claims that AA is currently experiencing a 5% (or less) success rate. This is supposedly in contrast to a 50% (they used to claim 75% or 90%) "success rate" that AA allegedly enjoyed in the 1940s and 50s. Their absurd assertion is unquestioningly being cited on web sites, in literature, in academic papers and TV as established fact when it is pure fiction. The assertion that AA enjoyed 50%, 75% or 90% "success rates" in the 1940s and 50s is derived solely through selective semantic citation (which is deficient in context) and is not statistically demonstrated. There may have been some place at some time with that kind of success, but to use it to paint a broad-brush overall projection of AA is ridiculous. Outside of a small number of instances, when AA was quite small, there is no viable and verifiable body of records or statistics maintained that would provide any type of reliable basis for stating any type of overall AA "success rate." The same holds true today in terms of asserting the erroneous 5% "success rate." The folks that make these kinds of fatuous claims are driven by an agenda, not facts. All too often, those making the claims do so as a disingenuous null hypothesis that that someone else must disprove rather than them substantiating their claims with factual evidence. As a solution to their manufactured doom and gloom scenario, B2B advocates the rather unremarkable hypothesis that Step choreography is the determining factor in successful recovery. This is based on James H's expert insight via the following gem of wisdom and experience on B2B's web site: "James provided Wally with three missing concepts from the "original" program that allowed him to successfully "fly the plane." They were: (1) the verbal Fourth Step (Moral Inventory), (2) the expanded Ninth Step that included forgiveness as well as restitution, and (3) the written Eleventh Step (Prayer and Meditation). He supplied Wally with a four-page pamphlet, written in 1938 by a person who had attended Oxford Group meetings with Dr. Bob Smith. This pamphlet, titled "How to Listen to God," provided clear, concise directions on how to conduct two-way prayer." B2B first asserted that a verbal 4th Step should be done instead of a written one. They later embellished this profound thesis with suggesting the use of a particular "assets and liabilities list" together with sponsor participation. This, along with a choreography change to take the "forgiveness" the Big Book suggest doing in the 4th Step and migrate it to the 9th Step (without passing GO or collecting $200), and then squeeze in a little "quiet time" in the 11th Step and, voila, your "success rates" soar from 5% to a 10-fold exponential increase to %50% or higher. To state that both the choreography and success rate fantasies are built on meager threads is it putting it mildly. Even more meager are any solid demonstration of facts. The notions are based on anecdotal hearsay or the tortuous twisting of semantic nuance. To give credence to this theater of the absurd, B2B has elevated and shamelessly promoted James H to demigod status in terms of his presumed qualifications to offer expert commentary on how AA and the Oxford Group functioned 70 years ago. The sad fact is that quite a number of AA members, who have no way of knowing any better, have been swallowing it hook, line and sinker. Over the years, the B2B web site has asserted some rather creatively evolving "connections" that were supposed to have existed between James H and Bill W (even a mention of Dr Bob). The first was that "James attended Oxford Group meetings with Bill Wilson in Frederick, MD from 1935-1937." James H lived in Maryland, Bill W lived in NY (a mere 244 miles distant one-way today via interstate highways). During the great economic depression (which accounts for the latter half of the 1930s) and during World War II (which accounts for the beginning half of the 1940s) travel in the US was no simple matter, even from Maryland to NY. I'm not sure whether B2B's use of the word "together" is supposed to be interpreted to mean "at the same place," "at the same time" or both. In any event, it gives the impression that James H and Bill W were frequently in contact with one another when I don't believe any such thing actually occurred. The next is a claim on B2B's web site that "Although James stayed in the Oxford Group, he did have contact with the early A.A. fellowship through Sam Shoemaker, a mutual friend of his and Bill Wilson's. Sam Shoemaker was the rector of the Calvary Church in New York City, which was the United States headquarters of the Oxford Group." This probably took some real doing on James H's part in that Sam Shoemaker left the Oxford Group in 1941 and evicted the Oxford Group from Calvary Hall in NYC. So it would be interesting to find out just how James H worked through Sam Shoemaker. In response to a question of whether James H was a member of AA, the answer was "Yes, he is as much a member of A.A. as anyone else who has a desire to stop drinking. However, for James the compulsion to drink was successfully removed on December 12, 1934. He has not had a drink of alcohol or taken a mood altering substance (including nicotine) since that day. ... James has an A.A. home group. It meets on Thursday nights at the Towson, MD Methodist church." In addition to the above is a statement that James H "was a member of the Oxford Group in the 1930's and is a member of Moral Re-Armament today." So he has a home group where no one knows the "longest living" sober member and he's a member of Moral Rearmament, which today is called "Initiatives of Change" (perhaps James hadn't noticed). so it's anything but clear how James H actually fits into the total picture. In 1961, a book was published about a man named Ferdinand Waldo DeMara Jr. The title of the book was "The Great Imposter." I can't help but get the same sense that a similar book could be written about B2B and James H. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob White Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:07 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] James Houck and AA in Towson I have been reading these entires with some mild amusement. Having lived in the Towson area for most of my life (age 54) and having been a grateful member of AA for over 25 years, I know who this James H is but he is a non-entity to Baltimore or Towson AA. He does not go to meetings and the old timers don't know him (except by the odd story about him). I learned more about him from the Time Magazine article last year then anything else. I say God Bless him- but don't look to him for anything other than an eccentric old fellow that has some interesting stories. But he is no AA icon around here or anywhere else. Rob W. >>> glennccc@sbcglobal.net 1/3/2006 4:50 PM >>> A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA meeting at Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which was recently passed on to me. James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by certain people in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from modern AA. In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the Oxford Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were participating in their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is no sign that he had any accurate inside information about how early AA actually worked with alcoholics. All he would have known was what was being said by the Oxford Group members who were hostile to the special mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the early AA people out of the Oxford Group. We already knew that. What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about James H.'s claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of being an expert witness on the way modern AA operates. James says that he has "spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences," which means that Wally P. and others have taken him around to give talks to AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of people does not give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group actually works with alcoholics. James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know anything about how a real AA meeting would operate in the modern period. JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material in the Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the way Wally has been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck to back up his own claims about the history of early AA. See http://www.aabacktobasics.com/ In response to Wally's questioning in http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsfo rjamesh.html James Houck said: ______________________________ "Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA program of the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group program of the 1930's. AA has changed over the years -- today's program is very different from the "original." For the past 20 years, I have been speaking at AA meetings, workshopps and conventions about the "original" program of recovery. My Sobriety date is 12/12/34. I am a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as did many other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard, Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with alcoholics as well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my granddaughter to AA meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already changed. It wasn't anything like the original program. While I was able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church. There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I have spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share guidance with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement home where I am living." ______________________________ When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of Maryland, at Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in Towson to see what that AA group was like, and to see how closely connected James H. actually was to the AA program there. Are the Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the United States? Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he know lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going to regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson AA accurate? What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that James H. has been making. Although James H. claims that he has attended numerous AA meetings at the Towson United Methodist Church, and is very familiar with the way their AA meetings function, JM could not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even knew who James was. He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group which was doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of people sober. It was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant, ineffectual, and demoralized people who knew nothing about AA's Historic Heritage, and who were achieving only a 1% to 3% success rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know anything about modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has been getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA. There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James H.'s testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have discovered needs to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply going to give JM's report to Kurtz as he wrote it: ______________________________ Hi, Glenn! Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James Houck, authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking my opinion about his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford Group. In the past, I have read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an authentic or accredited historian! I rely on my old friend, Ernie Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the item along to Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between the claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure in AA, yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD, Methodist Church is emphasized. I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in Bethesda, MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all of whom live in this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a meeting of what Wally presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size the old guy up in person, or at least learn a bit more first hand. On receiving my report, Ernie feels you might find this information of interest. ********* Ernie! I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to "James Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in a maiden voyage onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has provided information, and I have joined, but I haven't figured the interface out just yet. I might send the information I'm sending you now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else on the list might be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery, and I should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the nonsense. I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on Thursday, December 27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of which 8 identified themselves as "home group members." Most of the rest were young newcomers, as the meeting is a newcomers meeting, rotating weekly through discussion of the first three Steps. There were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works, Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in to give a 20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year of sobriety, and one 17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and that was it. I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the Back to Basics movement. They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former member until he recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the group. He has apparently come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one knew for sure. They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was asking about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative. The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group veteran who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know something about all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw little utility to pursuing this matter any more. My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate numbers cited for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own extensive experience in traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is clearly alive and well, at least in my own environment .... That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after Bill Wilson did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance through the Oxford Movement, is a minor curiosity. ********** I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you, again, for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for me. And I hope you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New Year. JM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> AIDS has a woman's face. Help women to protect themselves. http://us.click.yahoo.com/VHwV5B/TREMAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3035. . . . . . . . . . . . Early Triennial Survey Reports (?) From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 8:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have collected the Triennial A.A. Membership Survey pamphlets (P48) from the 1983 "The A.A. Member" thru the "2004 Membership Survey." I doubt any of you will be able to send me the actual pamphlets but I would appreciate help getting the contents the 1968, 1971, 1974, 1977, and 1980 Triennial Survey results in whatever form is available. For direct e-mail to me: sendto:ny-aa@att.net Thanks. ______________________ En2joy! Tom En2ger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3036. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/7/2006 8:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks. As a clinician, I measure the "problem" by NOT how much or how often a person drinks, but rather, the consequences . . . What happens when alcohol is taken into the body? If there is significant disruption in any one area of a person's life (can we say "unmanageable"?), then there is a problem. A "heavy drinker" may function without any problems. Where as a very light or occasional drinker (social?) may experience distinct difficulties that impacts their life in negative ways, not attributable otherwise to any other thing than the use of alcohol -- yet they continue to drink. I believe the DSM-IV-TR is pretty clear about this definition and is not dependent upon a specific "amount" or "frequency" as criteria for diagnosis. This fits with your summary of the noted passages from the AA literature. Jon Markle Raleigh > From: ArtSheehan (ArtSheehan at msn.com) > Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:21:14 -0600 > To: > Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates > > The chain of messages on the term "real alcoholic" seems to be > straying away from history. There are certain terms that are likely > best to avoid in this forum since they tend to lead far more to > endless un-retractable debate over semantics rather than clarity. > Among those tedious terms are "recovered vs recovering", "spiritual vs > religious" and "real alcoholic vs problem drinker or vs whatever." > > Now having said that, let's try to provide a historical perspective > that culminated in the 12and12 (1953) and originated in the Big Book > (1935-1939). It is the matter of AA laying out the welcome mat for > those prospects who were not low bottom drunks (as were the very early > members). > > In the 12and12 essay on Step One (page 23) it states: > > "Alcoholics Anonymous," published when our membership was small, dealt > with low-bottom cases only. Many less desperate alcoholics tried A.A., > but did not succeed because they could not make the admission of > hopelessness. > > It is a tremendous satisfaction to record that in the following years > this changed. Alcoholics who still had their health, their families, > their jobs, and even two cars in the garage, began to recognize their > alcoholism. As this trend grew, they were joined by young people who > were scarcely more than potential alcoholics. They were spared that > last ten or fifteen years of literal hell the rest of us had gone > through. Since Step One requires an admission that our lives have > become unmanageable, how could people such as these take this Step? > > There are quite a few mentions of the term "real alcoholic" in the Big > Book as noted below --[in brackets for emphasis]-- > > Page 21: But what about the --[real alcoholic]--? He may start off as > a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard > drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose > all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink. > > Pages 23-24: The tragic truth is that if the man be a --[real > alcoholic]--, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost control. At a > certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a > state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely > no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically > every case long before it is suspected. > > Page 30 > > MOST OF us have been unwilling to admit we were --[real alcoholics]--. > No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his > fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers > have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could > drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will > control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every > abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. > Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death. > > We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that > we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion > that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed. > > We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control > our drinking. We know that no --[real alcoholic]-- ever recovers > control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but > such intervals-usually brief-were inevitably followed by still less > control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible > demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type > are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period > we get worse, never better. > > Page 31: Despite all we can say, many who are --[real alcoholics]-- > are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of > self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves > exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is > showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face > and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we > have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people! > > Page 34: As we look back, we feel we had gone on drinking many years > beyond the point where we could quit on our will power. If anyone > questions whether he has entered this dangerous area, let him try > leaving liquor alone for one year. If he is a --[real alcoholic]-- and > very far advanced, there is scant chance of success. In the early days > of our drinking we occasionally remained sober for a year or more, > becoming serious drinkers again later. Though you may be able to stop > for a considerable period, you may yet be a potential alcoholic. We > think few, to whom this book will appeal, can stay dry anything like a > year. Some will be drunk the day after making their resolutions; most > of them within a few weeks. > > Page 35: We told him what we knew of alcoholism and the answer we had > found. He made a beginning. His family was re-assembled, and he began > to work as a salesman for the business he had lost through drinking. > All went well for a time, but he failed to enlarge his spiritual life. > To his consternation, he found himself drunk half a dozen times in > rapid succession. On each of these occasions we worked with him, > reviewing carefully what had happened. He agreed he was a --[real > alcoholic]-- and in a serious condition. He knew he faced another trip > to the asylum if he kept on. Moreover, he would lose his family for > whom he had a deep affection. > > Page 92: If you are satisfied that he is a --[real alcoholic]--, begin > to dwell on the hopeless feature of the malady. Show him, from your > own experience, how the queer mental condition surrounding that first > drink prevents normal functioning of the will power. Don't, at this > stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss > it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his > own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his > drinking, tell him that possibly he can-if he is not too alcoholic. > But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little > chance he can recover by himself. > > Page 109: Two: Your husband is showing lack of control, for he is > unable to stay on the water wagon even when he wants to. He often gets > entirely out of hand when drinking. He admits this is true, but is > positive that he will do better. He has begun to try, with or without > your cooperation, various means of moderating or staying dry. Maybe he > is beginning to lose his friends. His business may suffer somewhat. He > is worried at times, and is becoming aware that he cannot drink like > other people. He sometimes drinks in the morning and through the day > also, to hold his nervousness in check. He is remorseful after serious > drinking bouts and tells you he wants to stop. But when he gets over > the spree, he begins to think once more how he can drink moderately > next time. We think this person is in danger. These are the earmarks > of a --[real alcoholic]--. Perhaps he can still tend to business > fairly well. He has by no means ruined everything. As we say among > ourselves, "He wants to want to stop." > > Cheers > Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3037. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" From: Jim . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 1:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "... Bill formally divorced AA in 1955." This is erroneous information. Bill was involved in AA at many and various levels until he died. He was writing for the AA Grapevine until 1970. He died in January 1971. The following articles were written in December 1955 and December 1970, respectively. _____________________________ The Finest Gift of All Christmas, 1955 Volume 12 Issue 7 December 1955 EACH of us in AA has received the gift of sobriety. All of us have found a new usefulness and most of us have found great happiness. This adds up to the gift of life itself--a new life of wondrous possibility. What then are we going to do with this great gift of life? Because our experience has taught us, we are quite sure that we know. We shall try to share with every fellow sufferer all that has been so freely given us. We shall try to carry AA's message to those who need and want it, wherever in the world they may be. We shall daily re-dedicate ourselves to the God-given truth that "It is by self-forgetting that one finds; it is by giving that one receives." For us of AA, this is the Spirit of Christmas. This is the finest gift of all. Lois joins me in our warmest greetings. May the New Year of 1956 be the greatest time of giving and of receiving that we in AA have ever known. Bill W. Copyright (c) The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1955). Reprinted with permission. --------------------------------------------------------------- Christmas Message Volume 27 Issue 7 December 1970 GRATITUDE is just about the finest attribute we can have, and how deeply we of AA realize this at Christmastime. Together, we count and ponder our blessings of life, of service, of love. In these distraught times, we have been enabled to find an always-increasing measure of peace within ourselves. Together with all here at AA's General Service Offices, Lois joins me in warmest greetings to each and all of you, and me share our confident faith that the year to come will be counted among the best that our Fellowship has ever known. Bill W. Copyright (c) The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1970). Reprinted with permission. --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mertonmm3" wrote: > If you look closely at his life you'll see that Bill formally divorced AA in 1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE TRYING TO HELP THE ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID NOT WORK. Thats really what the sub-secret LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal. Its also what the enormous work he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin B-3 and its effect on Alcoholism. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3038. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Alcohol left in food after cooking From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 11:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have saved an article titled "Food Science" published in Science News v. 136 11/11/89 reporting on the annual meeting of the American Dietetic Association in Kansas City, MO. It states in part: "Though simmering a pot roast at 185 deg.F for 2 1/2 hours removed 95% of the red wine added, 25 minutes of baking at 375 deg.F retained 45% of the dry sherry in scalloped oysters." Other 'stics quoted are similar to the other article posted. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3039. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcohol left in food after cooking From: Liz Barrett, True Function of Virtue . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 5:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you for this information. Just FYI: This data was initially established by FDA research; a study was subsequently published in the April 1992 edition of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association (JADA). I was able to find the citation on PubMed, but JADA issues prior to 1993 are not available online. If anyone would like to read the study at a library, the citation is: J Am Diet Assoc. 1992 Apr;92(4):486-8. The authors are: Augustin J, Augustin E, Cutrufelli RL, Hagen SR, Teitzel C. [Department of Food Science and Toxicology, Food Research Center, Moscow, ID 83843.] -- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug B." wrote: > > I got this guide online: > http://www.betterendings.org/Recipes/cookal.htm > > > Cooking With Alcohol > > When cooking with beer or alcohol, does all of the alcohol evaporate? > > No. The following chart should be helpful. > > PREPARATION METHOD / AlcoholRetained > > No heat application, immediate consumption 100% > > No heat application, overnight storage 70% > > Alcohol ingredient added to boiling liquid, and removed from heat 85% > > Flamed 75% > > Baked, approximately 25 minutes, alcohol ingredient > on surface of mixture (not stirred in) 45% > > Baked/simmered, alcohol ingredient stirred into mixture > 15 minutes / 40% > 30 minutes / 35% > 1 hour / 25% > 1.5 hours / 20% > 2 hours / 10% > 2.5 hours / 5% > > source: Minnesota Nutrition Council Newsletter > > What can I substitute if a recipe calls for beverages with alcohol? > > The best, but not always the easiest solution, is to find another recipe > without alcohol that will fill the need. If the beer or wine is a major > ingredient in your recipe, or if a large quantity is called for, it > makes sense not to attempt a substitute. The results could be > unpleasant. In such a case, look for another recipe. > > Often the alcohol required will be a small amount, such as a couple of > tablespoons, and in this case there are several substitutions: > > In recipes having plenty of seasonings, plan water may be substituted. > Both the alcohol and a substitute may be omitted if the liquid isn't > needed for a gravy or sauce. > > When cooking with fish, an equal amount of bottled or fresh clam or fish > stock may be substituted. Just remember, bottled clam juice and some > fish stocks are high in salt. Some people use white grape juice with > fish. > > Other substitutes include chicken or beef broth > > Juice such as lemon, lime, apple or cranberry are all possibilities. > > Reprinted from Fall 99 Issue Byerly's Bag > > > Doug B. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3040. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 7:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That's a pretty wild claim. Can you site the page and reference for this, please (using the DSM-IV-TR, which is the most current edition). I've always used the two books as mutually complementary. I have never found any incongruence between the two approaches with diagnostics or treatment approaches. But, I'm willing to learn something new . . . . Thanks, Jon > From: "Mitchell K." > Reply-To: > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:15:01 -0800 (PST) > To: > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence > (Alcoholism) > > PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of > defining guideline for alcoholism one must remember > the following: The DSM does state that a person can > remain in total remission from alcohol dependence and > continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit the > criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence. > Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does not > define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the > criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous and > the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent. > > From: Mitchell K. > (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3041. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholism and genetics From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/2/2006 5:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 12:49 1/2/2006 , Dave Smith wrote: ____________________________ The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that alcoholism is primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility. Physiologically alcoholics metabolize alcohol and mind altering chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of the population (in the United States, ____________________________ I have seen this assertion many times over these last two decades, but I have never seen a citation from the scientific literature affirming it. Could someone provide a citation? Thanks for your post. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3042. . . . . . . . . . . . Sixth Tradition stories From: Larry . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/5/2006 9:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Where might I find more about how the 6th Tradition of non-affiliation came to pass. Some of those stories in the 12 and 12 are pretty entertaining. Bill W. says "...most alcoholics are bankrupt idealists." Does that phrase pop up anyplace else? Thanks, Larry in NM. _____________________________________ Tradition Six: "An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3043. . . . . . . . . . . . NCADD and ASAM From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2006 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII No doubt the misinformation they put out is confusing to some people. However, AA cannot have an opinion on it. On the other hand, NCADD (the national council on alcoholism and drug dependence) http://www.ncadd.org and ASAM (the American Society of Addiction Medicine) composed of physicians dedicated to the field of Addiction Medicine http://www.asam.org are the two lead organizations regarding public education and advocacy on alcoholism. Their mission is to promote understanding of the illness and they have the most scientifically reliable statistics. I suggest wherever possible to direct people to their websites. There will always be whirling dervishes. Best thing to do is - let 'em whirl!. Rob W. ---------------------------------- >>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 1/7/2006 7:02 PM >>> Unfortunately, I believe there is a much more serious and disconcerting side to James H and his affiliation as the poster child for the "Back to Basics" (B2B) organization. B2B propagates revisionist AA history in a classic example of manufacturing an idyllic scenario portraying the AA program of Recovery in the "old days" and then manufacturing a contrasting scenario bemoaning that "today" it's all different and has gone downhill .... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3044. . . . . . . . . . . . Second Tradition (long and short) From: HJFree . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2006 10:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long form? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3045. . . . . . . . . . . . genetic models for alcoholism - citations from scientific literature From: dayatatime1950 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2006 11:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All - The scientific literature abounds with research results regarding the desease models for alcoholism. You can find excellent reviews of these results written for general audiences in two books (both available from Amazon.com): Under the Influence : A Guide to the Myths and Realities of Alcoholism (Paperback)by Milam and Ketchum and Beyond the Influence : Understanding and Defeating Alcoholism -- by Katherine Ketcham, et al; Paperback by Ketchum et. al. The second book is fairly recent and covers information reported since the first book came out in the late 1970s. Neither qualifies as a citation from the scientific literature but both are well researched and cite leading references. If you have access to a university library you might look at: M. Heilig and M. Egli "Models for Alcohol Dependence: A Clinical Perspective" in "Drug Discovery Today: Disease Models" Vol 2, No. 4, 2005. I can provide this article as a pdf file to any interested members of this group. It contains 45 citations to recent scientific publications and will be a good starting point for anyone interested in delving into the (voluminous) primary scientific literature covering this subject. Regards, Russ Hillard (dayatatime1950 at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3046. . . . . . . . . . . . Harper Brothers printing of A.A. Comes of Age ??? From: mr.grassroots . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/8/2006 11:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello! Hope this finds all well with everyone - Just wondering if anyone has any information concerning the 1957 Harper Brothers printing of Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age? Particularly trying to find out the number of these Harper's printings and any other information concerning this effort. Thany You in advance for your efforts on this search - All the Best to You and Yours - mr.grassroots IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3047. . . . . . . . . . . . James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/10/2006 10:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Jared L., Susan K., Bill H., Cheryl F., and Tommy H. -- comments on James Houck ______________________________ From: "jlobdell54" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Art, While I hold no particular brief for James Houck and none for BtoB, I should point out that Bill and Fitz did go to OG House Parties in MD (including Frederick) certainly in 1935-36 and possibly 1936-1937. But the trips they took began at Fitz's farm in Cumberstone, and while Fitz's son remembered Bill coming down and Bill and Fitz spending time together at the farm before they went off house-partying (Fitz Jr was 13-14 at the time), to the best of his knowledge no one named James Houck was ever at the house, nor did he ever hear the name. He has vivid memories of Bill and Fitz playing fiddle and banjo and singing in the parlor, with Bill singing Northern songs and Fitz singing Southern songs. He remembers Jim B and Jim's cousin Churchy --but no James Houck. He could of course have attended House Parties where Bill and Fitz were present -- probably did -- but not with them in any strong sense of the word with. -- Jared Lobdell ______________________________ From: "Susan Krieger" (susank at qis.net) James Houck came into the Baltimore AA office about 15 years ago or so. I don't remember the exact year. His grandson is a member of AA. He wanted to post his sobriety anniversary and would have made his sobriety older than 1935 or the beginning of AA. He said that he attended the Oxford Group. He may have just started at that time to attend our local meetings. We would not list his sobriety date to be older than AA. He has listed his name a couple of times. I have had several calls about who was he. No one in this area knew JH. I was at a Convention where in a count down he took away being the oldest member of AA from our well known members. When he was in the Office I asked him if he had ever had a drinking problem. His answer to me was "I had an honesty problem." Susan K. ______________________________ From: billherold1017@aol.com (billherold1017 at aol.com) My name is Bill H. from Area 29 Maryland. As chairperson of the archives, I interviewed James Houck for ten hours. The only real thing I got out of the interview is that he knew Bill W and Fitz M. ( Our Southern Friend) from going to Oxford group meetings in Frederick, Maryland. Bill would come down to Fitz's house outside of Annapolis and they would drive to Frederick, Maryland. James Houck never mentioned a thing about being a recovering alcoholic in AA and to my recollection of the tape, never attended AA His only claim to fame is to be one of the only living people to know Bill and Fitz All he talked about was the Oxford Group and he really did not have much real regard for AA. Bill H ______________________________ From: "Cheryl F" (learning3legacies at cox.net) That friend of James Houck's is Wally and yes he is still alive and for what it's worth there is a grievance file through GSO about those workshops. ______________________________ From: Tommy H. (recoveredbygrace at yahoo.com) Several years ago I attended Wally`s Back to the Basics one day workshop in Wilmington,NC. James H. could not appear in person, but he did address the crowd of around 100 AA men and women by teleconference from the rest home he is staying at. I have never heard James say he was an active member of AA, but I have heard him say he had spoke in numerous one day workshops hosted by Wally P. Those workshops were mostly attended by AA`s. I have copies of several tapes of some of those talks. Those talk were given in several formats, including a Christian Walk thru the steps of AA. James seemed more interested in teaching others about Two Way Prayer then talking about AA . Tommy H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3048. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: Rob . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2006 7:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 182 Clinton St Brooklyn heights, NY _______________________ In response to Message 3032 From: "Russ S" Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 Subject: Green Pond, NJ Dear History Lovers, I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey. I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start? Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3049. . . . . . . . . . . . Crooked thinking From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/9/2006 8:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3050. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Crooked thinking From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 11:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The thought and answer I come up with is 'because Henry P. wrote the chapter not Bill.' Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: trixiebellaa To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3051. . . . . . . . . . . . A better scientific citation regarding Genetics of Alcoholism From: dayatatime1950 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 11:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All - I have had a lot of responses to my earlier posting regarding scientific evidence of the genetics of alcoholism. As a result I have gone back to the literature and looked for a more seminal publication with a more general treatment. Truth be told, looking stuff up is kind of a hobby of mine. Anyway, I have found: "The genetics of alcoholism" Current Opinion in Genetics and Development, Volume 8, Issue 3, June 1998, Pages 282-286 Alison M Goate and Howard J Edenberg Again, I can supply anyone who is interested with a pdf file of this article if you will write to me direct at: (dayatatime1950 at yahoo.com) It is much more readable than the other article I cited previously. In it the authors state "evidence from twin, adoption and family stuides suggest alcoholism is a complex trait resulting from the action of multiple interacting genes and the environment". They go on to describe efforts to identify the specific genes that are associated with alcoholism in humans. Some progress has been made toward this goal. Regards, Russ Hillard IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3052. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 10:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sorry it took so long to reply.... Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV - TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page # is the same): (DSM IV TR web link = http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/subdep.htm Early Full Remission - This specifier is used if, for at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met (emphasis added) Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met at any time during the period of 12 months or longer (emphasis added) The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA is not about abstinence as a criteria. Mitchell > That's a pretty wild claim. > > Can you site the page and reference for this, please > (using the DSM-IV-TR, which is the most current > edition). > > I've always used the two books as mutually > complementary. I have never found any incongruence > between the two approaches with diagnostics or > treatment approaches. > > But, I'm willing to learn something new . . . . > > > Thanks, > > Jon > > > > From: "Mitchell K." > > > Reply-To: > > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:15:01 -0800 (PST) > > To: > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] DSM-IV definitions: > Abuse vs. Dependence > > (Alcoholism) > > > > PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of > > defining guideline for alcoholism one must > remember > > the following: The DSM does state that a person > can > > remain in total remission from alcohol dependence > and > > continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit > the > > criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence. > > Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does > not > > define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the > > criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous > and > > the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent. > > > > From: Mitchell K. > > (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3053. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Russ, In some photos of the Green Pond residence I can tell you that it is a one story cottage and that in the early 90's it was painted white with dark green trim. I was told by the photographer that it is in a gated community and difficult to access without knowing someone who lives there. As a first avenue of approach attending a meeting in Newfoundland or the closest town you can find and stating your objective would be a good approach. Failing that you could approach the homeowner's association but I imagine they've been approached before. Another method would be to go to the County seat and look in the records book under Chrystal. This would probably be the owner's surname. It was Horace's uncle who I believe first name was Frank. Please keep me informed of your progress as this is a matter of great interest to me. -merton Another met - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Rob wrote: > > 182 Clinton St > Brooklyn heights, NY > > _______________________ > > In response to Message 3032 > > From: "Russ S" > Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 > Subject: Green Pond, NJ > > Dear History Lovers, > > I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey. > > I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start? > > Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3054. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 2:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their period of "living around." Horace C loaned them his summer cottage or bungalow. It got too cold that fall and they moved on. "Pass it On" 215 ff "Lois Remembers" 125 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3055. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 12:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow). It got too cold that fall and they moved on. "Pass it On" 215 ff "Lois Remembers" 125 It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3056. . . . . . . . . . . . Where were the Wilsons'' living? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2006 2:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Russ asked: "I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones" Dear Russ, Bill and Lois had to vacate there lovely home at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn Hts. in April of 1939. Between then and moving into the Bedford Hills residence they lived at nearly 50 places (P. 214 - Pass It On), including the 24th Street Clubhouse. But at last, in 1941, while living with friends in Chappaqua, NY, just north of the city, they were offered, and accepted, the great deal on the Bedford Hills house (Page 259 of "Pass It On" ). When asked how they accomplished living so many different places, Bill understated, "we were invited out to dinner a lot!" The NJ Area Archives presented a great display at the Toronto International Convention last year - this would be a great source of information for you. Hope this helps, Bob S. Indiana Dear History Lovers, I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey. I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start? Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3057. . . . . . . . . . . . alcohol content grapevine article From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2006 5:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII About Alcoholism - Alcoholism Information, Research, and Treatment What's Not Cooking? Volume 47 Issue 3 August 1990 Many of these items are contrary to AA philosophy. Their publication here does not mean that the Grapevine endorses or approves them; they are offered solely for your information. Don't blame Julia Child for leading you astray: We all were convinced that the alcohol in the sherry she so liberally added to dishes would cook away, with only the wine's flavor left behind. But now, it turns out, we can't have our brandy and eat it too, because alcohol, as recent research reveals, has tremendous staying power. At the request of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, food scientist Evelyn A. Augustin of Washington State University in Pullman, along with her husband, Jorg A. Augustin of the Food Research Center at the University of Idaho in Moscow, recently tested six recipes to determine the fate of the alcohol called for. Their results, reported at the latest annual meeting of the American Dietetic Association, were a big surprise to everyone. They found that the burgundy in pot roast Milano, for example, doesn't completely disappear even after two and a half hours of simmering on the stove; that a dish of scalloped oysters, baked at 375 degrees for 25 minutes, retains 45 percent of the alcohol in the dry sherry used; that Grand Marnier sauce, which is removed from the heat when the called-for liqueur is added, gets hot enough to lose only 15 percent of its alcohol. Especially surprising, though, was what happened--or didn't happen--to the brandy in the cherries jubilee. The recipe calls for dark sweet cherries to be mixed with corn-starch and heated in a chafing dish to thicken. One quarter of a cup of brandy is then ignited in a separate pan and poured over the cherries. But even this intense flaming process, the Augustins discovered, burned off no more than 25 percent of the alcohol. They tested the recipe several times, and on each try the flame died, while 75 percent of the alcohol survived. Lears Don't listen to the people in AA; Listen to the AA in people. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3058. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Seiberling''s Children From: whanny@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 10:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anybody know if Henrietta Seiberling's children were present when Bill W and Dr Bob met for the first time? I've heard Bob Smith Jr say many times that he was the last person living who was present on that day, but I thought that Henrietta had a couple of small children. Thanks, Whanny ____________________________ From the moderator: I heard Henrietta Seiberling's son speak at the National Archives Workshop at Akron, Ohio, shortly before his death. Gail LaC., who started that series of excellent annual workshops, could tell us the exact date. Henrietta's son was a U.S. Representative, who went to Tip O'Neill and enlisted his aid in getting approval from the Russians (via backdoor unofficial channels) for AA people to come over and start the first AA groups in the Soviet Union. That was an important part of the prehistory of the establishment of AA in Russia, which is not usually known. Dr. Bob's son Smitty, a really fine man, lived quite a few years longer than Henrietta's son. I am sure that at the time you heard him say he was the last survivor that this was in fact the case. But I would be interested in anything the members of the group know about Henrietta's children, because my only knowledge comes from hearing her son speak that one time. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3059. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Second Tradition (long and short) From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 6:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the same. Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern" was redundant with the long form of tradition 9, that the phrase be dropped from the long form of tradition 2. ----- Original Message ----- From: HJFree Subject: Second Tradition (long and short) Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long form? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3060. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 5:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son, former Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in AA. I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob met. I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would have been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long Island. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3061. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 12:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The correct name is Horace Chrystal. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3062. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 7:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 23:21 1/13/2006 , ny-aa@att.net wrote: //The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money to pay for a moving van .... Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned them his summer cottage .... It is unlikely that such a cottage would have survived this long.// Not so quick, here. I would note that my family's camp on Lake Memphremagog in Northern Vermont was bought by my grandfather when my mother, born in 1913, was a pre-schooler, and I can tell you it is still in excellent shape as are many of the neighboring cottages of similar vintage. One has to take care of them, but they are still very livable. Tommy H in Baton Rouge . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3063. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 11:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My family vacationed at Green Pond for generations, usually for weeks in the summer, and from what a pre-teenager can remember, I recall that our various rented cottages (bungalows) were built in the earliest quarter of the twentieth century. Old stoves, attic fans, all wooden bungalows, etc. Green Pond is about a mile long, shaped like a rectangle, with a large Lodge-plus-Hotel at one end (that building should still be standing, too, unless it burnt down since 1960...). Most all of the cottages had no garages, just a driveway between them for cars. Its US Post Office looked like something out of the wild west (plenty of fodder for kids games), a small, single-room building that still had a horse hitch in front of it. There were many single-lot homes at the water's edge around the lake's perimeter, and most likely are now part of the 'gated' community, of course with updated homes. The Lodge was a set of beautiful white Adirondack-style of buildings (think of green painted Adirondack chairs around a long, curved veranda) but I also remember it as unoccupied during the summers my family rented cottages there. Other relatives had stayed at the Lodge in earlier times. It was one site of many adventures that a 4 to 7-year old and his brothers could create...and Green Pond was where my swimming got better and I grew to love bodies of water. Probably foreshadowed my later love of bodies of distilled spirits! If a summer cottage that Horace provided Lois and Bill that 1939 summer was around the same location on Green Pond, "bungalow" is a fitting description of something that my parents rented 15 years later. rick t. --- Original Message ----- From: ny-aa@att.net To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Green Pond, NJ The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow). It got too cold that fall and they moved on. "Pass it On" 215 ff "Lois Remembers" 125 It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3064. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 12:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The entire diagnostic is about using the substance, alcohol. The criteria you cite do not exclude the substance. I venture to say this is one reason why untrained laypersons should not be using clinical works to back up their arguments. Taking out of context, one can use sentences from just about any form of literature to make it appear that the entire volume says something quite the opposite of what is intended. Many people do the same thing with the Big Book . . .. Not only do I think your argument fails, in fact, I asked several clinicians, some of which were responsible for writing the DSM-IV-TR, about this question and they were incredulous that any accredited clinician would make such a claim. Jon Markle Raleigh > From: "Mitchell K." > Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:23:20 -0800 (PST) > To: > Subject: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) > > Sorry it took so long to reply.... > Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV - > TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page # > is the same): (DSM IV TR web link = > http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/subdep.htm > > > Early Full Remission - This specifier is used if, for > at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no > CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met > (emphasis added) > > Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if > none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been > met at any time during the period of 12 months or > longer (emphasis added) > > The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not > drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria > for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA > is not about abstinence as a criteria. > > > > Mitchell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3065. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 8:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John Seiberling's demise is news to me (the NE Ohio Area Archivist) and, I think, to him. He spoke at the Sept. 25-27, 1998 Third Annual Nat'l AA Archives Workshop and was very much alive in April 2002 when he received an award from the Nat'l Park System. This copyright 2005 article speaks of him in the present tense: http://www.akronworldaffairs.org/newsletter/features/seiberling.html Cursory Googleing shows nothing more recent and I am sure his demise would. So rumors of his demise would seem to be greatly exaggerated. ___________________________ Bob, Profuse apologies from the moderator for passing along some very inaccurate information. I am glad, because I heard him speak in 1998, and he is a really fine man, whom I greatly admire. At least you and Mel B. caught my goof before John read it! As you said in your Mark Twain quote in your last line, it would have been like the famous case where Mark Twain (still very much alive) was amazed to read his own obituary in a newspaper. My wife Sue once said to me, "The problem with you, Glenn, is that you ARE right 93% of the time." I responded to her by saying, "No, the problem with me is the other 7% of the time, where I end up being the last person to figure it out." I always ask everyone in the fellowship (and also in the AAHistoryLovers) to remember the 7% rule at all times when you're listening to me talk. Once more it has been proved to be a valuable warning indeed (grin). Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3066. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Long Form of Second Tradition From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 3:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would be very interested to know where the recent contributor gained the information that "Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern" is in the original (long) form of the Second Tradition, as well as the original (long) form of the Ninth. On the Ninth there is no doubt, but I really would like to see the evidence on the Second. In the April 1946 Grapevine ("Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition") the passage is not there. In "Traditions Stressed in Memphis Talk" (October 1947 Grapevine) it is not there. In "Tradition Two" (January 1948 Grapevine) it is not there. In the form in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (1958), which actually dates from (roughly) 1950, it is not there. I have found no evidence for its inclusion in Two until the so-called short form. In all these cases mentioned (except of course for the write-up specifically on Tradition Two), the phrase is in Tradition Nine, as we know. I am hoping this contribution was not merely a guess. -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3067. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Second Tradition (long and short) - (and addenda) From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 10:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The statement in message 3059 regarding Traditions 2 and 9 is incorrect. The long form of the second Tradition never contained any mention of "Our leaders are but trusted servants - they do not govern." Also the initial version of the long form of Tradition 9 did not contain the term "they do not govern." The April 1946 Grapevine contained an article by Bill W titled "Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition" (re "Language of the Heart" pgs 20-24). The article provided AA with the initial version of the "long form" of the Traditions. A December 1947 pamphlet titled "AA Tradition" also contained the same wording. Both the short and long form of the Traditions have undergone changes from their original wording. Pinning down the dates when these changes occurred is no trivial matter (and a bit exasperating to find source reference details). The original long form of Tradition 9 contained the ending statement "All such representatives are to be guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in AA are but trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real authority from their titles. Universal respect is the key to their usefulness." This was later changed to add "they do not govern" after " ... authority from their titles." The November 1949 Grapevine contained the initial version of the "short form" of the Traditions (re "Language of the Heart" article "A Suggestion for Thanksgiving" pgs 95-96). The November 1949 Grapevine issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for the forthcoming Cleveland Convention in 1950. The wording of the second Tradition was expanded to include the sentence "Our leaders are but trusted servants - they do not govern." (Note: "AA Comes of Age" pg 213, states that the short form was drafted in "1947 or thereabouts"- it was more likely early 1949). What caused this addition to the short form of Tradition 2 (and later addition to the long form of Tradition 9)? I can only surmise. From 1946 on, after the first publication of the Traditions, there was friction (it grew to be rather intense) between Bill W and the Alcoholic Foundation Board Trustees regarding Bill's ideas for establishment of the General Service Conference (re "AA Comes of Age" pgs 208-214). Dr Bob was not very keen on the idea either. The appearance of the "Our leaders are but trusted servants ..." sentence in the short form may well have been a product of the friction but I cannot confirm it with a direct source reference. Two wording changes were subsequently made to the November 1949 version of the short form of the Traditions: "primary spiritual aim" was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6, and "principles above personalities" was changed to "principles before personalities" in Tradition 12. However, the November 1949 wording of the short form of the Traditions was adopted and adapted by Al-Anon Family Groups in September 1952 (re "Lois Remembers" pgs .177-178). The Traditions were approved at AA's 15th anniversary and 1st International Convention which took place at Cleveland, OH from July 28-30, 1950. Bill W chronicled the proceedings in a September 1950 Grapevine article titled "We Came of Age" (re "The Language of the Heart" pgs 117-124 also "AA Comes of Age" pg 213). The Traditions meeting was held in the Cleveland Music Hall. Bill W was asked to sum up the Traditions for the attendees. He did not recite either the long or short form. Instead, he paraphrased a variation of the long form. Following Bill's summation, the attendees adopted the 12 Traditions unanimously by standing vote. I cannot as yet determine the specific points in time when the wording changes to the short and long form of Traditions took place. I believe it occurred with the publication of the 12and12 in 1953 but I need access to a first printing 12and12 to confirm it. If anyone can tell me the if the wording of Traditions 6 and 12 in a first printing 12and12 is the same as they are today I'd be most grateful. If that's the case, then today's wording (short and long form) of the Traditions was Conference-approved in 1953 with the publication of the 12and12. The version of the long form of the Traditions as we know them today appeared in an appendix to the second edition Big Book printed in 1955. One oddity, previously mentioned in the AAHL forum, was that the 2nd edition Big Book Traditions appendix initially contained the wording of the short form as they were printed in the Grapevine in November 1949. There has been no subsequent posting as yet to AAHL saying in what printing the appendix was changed to reflect the short form version as worded today. One final bit of information - a number of members erroneously believe that Tradition 3 once contained the word "honest" and that it was removed from the Tradition by the Conference. It's not true. The word "honest" never appeared in either the long or short form of Tradition 3. The term comes from the Foreword to the first edition Big Book and was later included in the initial version of the AA Preamble in the June 1947 Grapevine. It was the AA Preamble that was changed by the Conference in 1958 to remove the word "honest." The way the Conference Advisory Action was framed can give the erroneous impression that Tradition 3 was changed. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kimball Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:58 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Second Tradition (long and short) At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the same. Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern" was redundant with the long form of tradition 9, that the phrase be dropped from the long form of tradition 2. ----- Original Message ----- From: HJFree Subject: Second Tradition (long and short) Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long form? Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3068. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Corporations? From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all: help needed on below: //The following are all CORPORATIONS: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.; the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.; and the Alcoholics Anonymous Grapevine, Inc. They are service organizations and corporations whose purpose and existence is to serve the Fellowship. In effect, they are temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown away and Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist. Historically speaking, what group or body of AA members had the authority to form these three corporations? How would they have to be called together if they ever wished to vote on dismantling or discarding these corporations? Is provision made for dismantling and discarding any of these corporations in the Twelve Concepts, and who is given the power to take this action in the Twelve Concepts?/ Thanks, servus, Charlie B. "Charlie Bishop Jr." = (bishopbk at comcast.net) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3069. . . . . . . . . . . . The only AA censure motion? From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all: more help needed: //In the Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of A.A., 1951-2004 edition, p. 147, we read that in 1995 a recommendation that "the proposal to censure the General Service Board" was "dismissed. (Trustees)." the censure motion was signed by 10 GSC Delegates. What was the background for this censure move? Was this censure motion a reaction to the change in the Charter on Article 2?// thanks all, servus, Charlie B. "Charlie Bishop Jr." = (bishopbk at comcast.net) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3070. . . . . . . . . . . . AAWS legal attacks From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII //From "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) We went through a period a few years back when AAWS was going after anyone who used the circle and triangle logo, and trying to sue them for trademark infringement. This was defeated in the courts. One of the reasons was that circle and triangle logos had been used for years by all sorts of organizations, including some prohibitionist organizations in the period before AA came along. This has all been discussed in detail in past messages in the AAHistoryLovers. Recently I have had items (old books and pamphlets and memorabilia) which I had put up for sale on eBay removed because of protests made to eBay by AAWS, simply on the grounds that "AA" or "Alcoholics Anonymous" showed up somewhere on the item, as part of a book title or somewhere on the item. Has anyone else had items removed by eBay because of AAWS complaints? Please call or email me directly if you have had this happen to you: "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) phone 304.242.2937 I am trying to assemble enough material to work out a history of how this issue has developed in AA. Also, what information can the members of the group give me on cases where an internet website or AA chat room has been threatened or removed by AAWS? What is the history of this issue? Although the Big Book concordance issue seems to be dead now, and is no longer being fought over, some of the earlier attacks by AAWS were on concordances to the Big Book which were posted online, on the grounds apparently of supposed copyright infringement. Historically speaking, have there been issues other than claims of copyright infringement involved in any of these attacks on websites and chat rooms? Again, if you would call or email me directly, this would help me in writing the historical article I am working on. "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) phone 304.242.2937// Thanks all, servus, Charlie B. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3071. . . . . . . . . . . . An AA apology? From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi again...more help needed... //From "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC Final Report apologies or both? Thanks. My email address is (bishopbk at comcast.net) Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?// Again thanks, servus, Charlie B. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3072. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 4:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Yes, From my transcriptions of Lois diary the reference to Horace C. was a reference to Horace Chystal or "Chrys" as Lois refered to him. After living with the Parkhursts for a short time immediately after leaving 182 Bill and Lois moved to the Greenpond bungalow. Although Lois' diary made reference to "leaving Greenpond for good" keep in mind that this was an unedited diary without the option of seeing into future events. This bungalow was used many times over the next several years by Bill and Lois, more than any other place. Lois did not know she'd be returning when she wrote this first diary entry. As of the early 1990's the bungalow was still there according to a resident who spent considerable time tracking it down. This is the most discussion I've seen to date regarding the Green Pond bungalow. I have enough of a visual retention of the 20 or so photos I once had to be able to identify it. Homes back then didn't all look the same and the number of older homes in Greenpond was supposedly not large. Please advise, -merton --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, ny-aa@a... wrote: > > The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W > and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street > without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their > period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C > loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow). > It got too cold that fall and they moved on. > > "Pass it On" 215 ff > "Lois Remembers" 125 > > It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved > early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a > cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked > might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace > Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3073. . . . . . . . . . . . 100 Hundred Men and Women? From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 6:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40 stories in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in AA at the time the book was published. Sincerely, Jim F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3074. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On my visit to the Gate House in Akron last June I recall a framed printing in the small library where Bill first met with Dr. Bob. I think it says Henrietta's two daughters were home at the time and recalled a tall thin man with big feet who reminded them of a movie star when Bill came to meet and talk to Dr. Bob. As I had heard Smitty (Dr. Bob's son) talk about being the last person alive who was present when AA was formed, I asked the docent if the daughters were still alive and she thought one was but she was not sure. The house is so small it's had to imagine that Smitty and the girls did not play or talk with each other while Bill and Bob had their infamous discussion thus it would seem Smitty knew they were "present" too? Smitty and the two girls were probably close in age? Pete Kopcsak _______________________________ From the moderator: Is it possible that this is partly a dispute over definitions? Are we talking about the first time that Bill W. and Dr. Bob ever met, or are we talking about the long period which followed that initial meeting, during which Bill stayed with Dr. Bob and Anne, and they talked for hours every day about how to use this new spiritual method for working with alcoholics? The phrase "when AA was formed" could mean all sorts of things, depending on how you defined it and what perspective you were looking from: (1) the first time Bill W. and Dr. Bob met, (2) the period when Bill W. and Dr. Bob spent weeks at Dr. Bob and Anne's house figuring out how they were going to put this program together, (3) Dr. Bob's last drink after which he stayed sober to the end of his life (celebrated at Founders Day), (4) the point when they brought Bill D. into the program (which showed that they could teach it to other alcoholics),(5) the time when AA split from the Oxford Group, (6) the date and place where the first meeting was held which was called an "Alcoholics Anonymous meeting" (where Clarence Snyder insisted that he was the one who did that in Cleveland), (7) the point when "Alcoholics Anonymous" was chosen as the title of the book they were writing, or (8) from an Akron perspective, the period when the early Akron AA people were dropping by Dr. Bob and Anne's house every day and using that as their center for regular fellowship (the period when a number of the famous founders of AA in various places in the upper midwest were getting sober there). All that to one side, if any of Henrietta's surviving children were actually there at the time of Bill W. and Dr. Bob's first meeting, their memories of that evening would be extremely valuable to record. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, USA) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mel Barger" Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:25 PM Subject: Henrietta Seiberling's Children Hi All, As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son, former Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in AA. I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob met. I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would have been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long Island. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3075. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 4:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" wrote: > It was a reference to the handing over of AA from the co-founders to the fellowship and the backdrop for the Convention and the term, "AA Comes of Age". I didn't mean to convey that he abandoned AA at any time. Perhaps "divorced" was too strong a term and therefore I stand corrected. Instead, "he gave himself the space to approach the disease from angles which were precluded to AA by Tradition" would be a more accurate statement. (Step 10). Thank you for pointing this out. -merton ------------------------------------------------------------ > "... Bill formally divorced AA in 1955." > > This is erroneous information. Bill was involved in AA at many and > various levels until he died. He was writing for the AA Grapevine > until 1970. He died in January 1971. > > The following articles were written in December 1955 and December > 1970, respectively. > > _____________________________ > > The Finest Gift of All > Christmas, 1955 > Volume 12 Issue 7 > December 1955 > > EACH of us in AA has received the gift of sobriety. All of us have > found a new usefulness and most of us have found great happiness. This > adds up to the gift of life itself--a new life of wondrous possibility. > > What then are we going to do with this great gift of life? > > Because our experience has taught us, we are quite sure that we know. > We shall try to share with every fellow sufferer all that has been so > freely given us. We shall try to carry AA's message to those who need > and want it, wherever in the world they may be. We shall daily > re-dedicate ourselves to the God-given truth that "It is by > self-forgetting that one finds; it is by giving that one receives." > > For us of AA, this is the Spirit of Christmas. This is the finest gift > of all. > > Lois joins me in our warmest greetings. May the New Year of 1956 be > the greatest time of giving and of receiving that we in AA have ever > known. > > Bill W. > > Copyright (c) The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1955). Reprinted with > permission. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Christmas Message > Volume 27 Issue 7 > December 1970 > > GRATITUDE is just about the finest attribute we can have, and how > deeply we of AA realize this at Christmastime. Together, we count and > ponder our blessings of life, of service, of love. > > In these distraught times, we have been enabled to find an > always-increasing measure of peace within ourselves. Together with all > here at AA's General Service Offices, Lois joins me in warmest > greetings to each and all of you, and me share our confident faith > that the year to come will be counted among the best that our > Fellowship has ever known. > > Bill W. > > Copyright (c) The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1970). Reprinted with > permission. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mertonmm3" > wrote: > > > If you look closely at his life you'll see that Bill formally divorced AA in 1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE TRYING TO HELP THE ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID NOT WORK. Thats really what the sub-secret LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal. Its also what the enormous work he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin B-3 and its effect on Alcoholism. > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3076. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: An AA apology? From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 3:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] An AA apology? A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, IWS can not sell in Canada as the BB has separate Canadian copyright and it did not expire in Canada. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3077. . . . . . . . . . . . Pronounciation of "Shoemaker" From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 8:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have always pronounced Reverend Sam Shoemakers name as "Shoe - maker" just as it is spelled. However, Clarence Snyder pronounces it as "Shoe - mocker." I would like to know the correct articulation. Any help would be appreciated. Bob S., from Indiana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3078. . . . . . . . . . . . Inscription on Dr. Bob''s Desk? From: Karen . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 10:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Someone sent me an email saying that he heard in Missouri that there was an inscription on a desk plaque of Dr. Bob that says: "The task ahead of us is never greater than the POWER behind us." I have been unable to find anything that confirms this. I did find several websites that quote what is on the plaque and it does not include the quote from above. I also found a website of quotations (http://www.gratefulness.org/mb/quotes.cfm) that credits Alcoholics Anonymous with the following: "The power behind us is never estimated greater [than] the force of the task that is ahead of us." Does anyone have any information about the source of these quotations? Thanks, Karen IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3079. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: An AA apology? From: wilfried antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 4:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From THE FORTY - FIFTH ANNUAL MEETING OF THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 1995 FINAL REPORT page (27) 28 A.A. WORLD SERVICES, INC. "copyright were brought up under new business. It was felt the literature of Alcoholics Anonymous belongs to A.A. as a whole and A.A.W.S. (US/Canada) holds these copyrights in trust for all of us The committee recommended that A.A.W.S. Inc should continue to grant exclusive licenses to one service structure per country It was suggested that future W..M.s be kept aware of problems regarding copyrights In A.A." >>snip<< Other Board Action >>snip<< Ann Warner, Gary Glynn and George Dorsey met with three representatives of Intergroup World Services, Inc (IWS) in January 1995. It was a cordial meeting, and although we did not always see eye to eye, there was an understanding on some important issues After further communications following the meeting, an understanding was reached and reported to delegates, alternate delegates. intergrourp/central offices. overseas GSOs and World Service Meeting delegates GSO/Staff Operations: The Financial Reports are >>snip<< page 42 Reports from the A.A. Grapevine Other Board Business: . Technological Challenges- >>snip<< . lWS-As a result of the meeting withIntergroup World Services (IWS) in January, considerable progress has been made on an understanding and we are very optimistic about the final outcome >>snip<< ----- Original Message ----- From: Charlie Bishop Jr. To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:36 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] An AA apology? Hi again...more help needed... //From "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC Final Report apologies or both? Thanks. My email address is (bishopbk at comcast.net) Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?// Again thanks, servus, Charlie B. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3080. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:J.H.Fitzhugh Mayo and James McCaleb Burwell From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 11:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A couple of years ago I sat on a panel which included AAHL's Nancy O.and the topic was discovering more about Fitz Mayo.The following are some of the things I discovered when researching this topic. Jimmy Burwell's sister was Marjorie and her husband was Churchill M.(not Mayo) Churchill did not drink. His best friend was Fitz Mayo.Fitz, Jimmy and Churchill all went to an Episcopal high school in Virginia .Jimmy and Churchill both served overseas in WWI.Fitz did not serve (see his story"Our Southern friend") because the war was over when he enlisted and he was sent home.When Fitz was down on his luck(drunk) Churchill gave him land in Cumberland Md where Fitz built a house.Fitz had two wives. The first was Elizabeth who became ill and was attended to by Lois Wilson. After she died, he married Arabella.Fitz and both of his wives were visited several times by Bill and Lois Wilson. Fitz did get into the service in WWII, until he got ill. He was operated on by Dr. Bob. He had a cancer and died 10/4/1943. While Fitz was sober in NY he obviously heard about Jimmy's "problem". Jimmy was staying at his mothers house and she was hiding his clothes so he couldn't go out and get drunk.He had another AA member Jackie carry the message to Jimmy. Jackie never had permanent sobriety and died of alcoholism. Fitz was AA number 3 in New York and Jimmy was AA number 5 in New York. Both got sober with the help of Bill W. Fitz believed in God ( his father was an Episcopal minister) and Jimmy did not. ( see his story "The Vicious Cycle") Jimmy coined the expression "God As We Understand Him", and started AA in Philadelphia(Feb 28,1940), Wilmington,De, Harrisburg, Pa. and helped in Baltimore, Md. Jimmy insisted along with Hank P for "Higher Powered" and a "Power greater than ourselves" to be used. He was the salesman" Ed" described in the Third Tradition. It is thought that Bill took some liberties with his story to make a point. At the first open meeting of AA in Philadelphia, Fitz as well as several other New York members(including Mr. and Mrs Bill Wilson) made the trip. The date was March 6, 1940 .Jimmy returned the favor by going to Washington D.C. and helping Fitz get AA started there. Jimmy died Sept 8, 1974 and both He and Fitz are buried just feet apart in the Christ Episcopal Church in Owensville, Md.It is the same church that Fitz's father was a minister. As an observation; They were so opposite and so alike. Both had the tremendous drive and energy that was so characteristic of early members to stay sober and to "pass it on" to others. Some of what I discussed is common knowledge to history buff's,but since AAHl has members new to AA history I have included it. I apologize for the repetition. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike G. p.s. Jimmy was known as "Jimmy of Philadelphia" and wrote a can opener "Memoirs of Jimmy" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3081. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2006 7:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think it's interesting the way that the group is going about "speculating" James Houck and the things he has said and been a part of. It's almost as if he were one of the first one hundred in AA (who are no longer alive) so we are ONLY left with being able to study what they wrote and what they said on recordings, or perhaps even what they said to others. But since James is still alive, wouldn't it be better to simply contact him and ask questions of whatever is needed to be clarified instead of reading into what he has said and making judgments of scattered and incomplete information? So much criticism and accusation when a mere phone call with a few questions to a wonderful man might just set the record straight. Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3082. . . . . . . . . . . . The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2006 1:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII bout a month ago Chuck P. (no known relationship to Hank P. at this time) made available to me the 4 pages from the Sotheby's catelog where the heavily annotated manuscript that was sold for well over $1Million appeared. Having personally owned numerous handwritten documents that were given to me by Hank's living relatives and viewed numerous other of Hank's original documents at GSO, Stepping Stones and Clarence's letters from Hank now housed at Brown University, I've concluded (to my own satisfaction anyway) that except for the much later dated page signed by Bill the vast majority of the commentary was pened by Hank P. Hank had 3 different styles of handwriting, one being block letters (which I call H1) the second being a very neatly written style (which I call H2 and somewhat rare) and third a rapid scribble (which I call H3 and the most typical. On the bottom of several of the pages the initials HGP appears (Hank's initials the G. standing for Giffen). Also note that the well known Dr. Howard (See PIO) appears several times and it seems very likely that this is the manuscript lent to Dr. Howard for review. Dr. Howard was the individual who told them that the book was all wrong and they must remove the "You musts" from the book and replace it with more suggestive language. Note that my review of the Montclair City Directory from 1937-1940 revealed no Dr. Howard and its quite likely that this was a pseudonym. (also his first name is unknown and he seems to have vanished from all historical accounts of the era after the review). Jim Burwell says in his history something to the effect that he was the head psychiatrist of New Jersey, though I could not find such a position to have existed then. Any doctor at the time of the writing of the book (other than Dr. Silkworth) would be reluctant to attaching his name to this idea or book. There are references to some of the material being "too groupy" and to the Oxford Group explicitly demonstrating that there was a perception that the book should avoid such appearence.(at least by Hank). I,m not a handwriting expert but absent a great forgery I'm quite sure of my analysis of the majority of the handwriting being that of Hank. I've also only seen evidence regarding these 4 pages so it goes without saying that I have no knowlege of what appears on any of the other pages. As always anyone should feel free to challenge any of this (preferably having viewed the document or fascimiles in the above-referenced auction catelog). That such an extraorinary document should surface at this late date demonstrates that their is still original material out there that hasn't been noted by anyone. All the Best, -merton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3083. . . . . . . . . . . . God-shaped hole From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2006 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages 952, 954, 956, and 962 asked about the origins of the idea of "the God-shaped hole in the human soul." I have written a piece about this which is too long to post in the AAHistoryLovers, so I have posted it online elsewhere, and will simply give a link to it here for those who might be interested. In the language of AA spirituality, the only thing that will fill this painful void is developing God-consciousness, the sense of God's presence, which Bill W. talked about in the opening pages of the Big Book (see pages 1, 10 and 12-13). He had experienced it as a young military officer while visiting Winchester Cathedral, but had failed to realize its importance, and had turned away from it. Learning to develop God-consciousness was the central motif in much of the evangelical theology of the early twentieth century. The meditative practice of the Oxford Group's morning Quiet Time was designed in part to help us develop this awareness of the constant presence of God's power and grace and love. This kind of meditation was further developed in Richmond Walker's Twenty Four Hours a Day, where Rich (the second most published early AA author) spoke of entering the Divine Silence and the Eternal Now, where we learned to simply be still and delight in the awareness of God's peace, and let it flow in and fill our souls. Emmet Fox, whose book Sermon on the Mount was a standard piece of recommended reading among early AA people, showed us how we could use our awareness of God's presence and power as a way to heal our souls and our lives when we found ourselves embroiled in troubles of any kind, either in our external lives or within our souls.** But in this piece I talk about the ancient roots of the spiritual wisdom contained in idea that human beings are creatures who must have God in their lives in order to realize their full human potential: http://hindsfoot.org/godsha.html Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) ______________________________ As we see for example in a famous passage from Emmet Fox which is quoted in some versions (like the Detroit version) of the set of four early AA beginners lessons called the Table Mate or Table Leaders Guide: **Emmet Fox, Staying on the Beam "Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam is produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on this beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, or get his bearings in any other way. As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more. Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some sense of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if outer things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off the beam you are in danger. You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should immediately get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, claiming His Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, and that the promises in the Bible are true today. If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will reach port in safety. Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3084. . . . . . . . . . . . Update about Fitz M.wives From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 12:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I received the following from Jared L. "Hi! Shakey -- Thank you. A possible correction. Fitz and Libby were divorced in 1936-37, according to their son. Libby died, I believe, in 1984. Fitz married Arabella in 1943, when he already knew he was dying of cancer. She died in Westchester County NY in early 1972 (I think) at the age of 93 -- she was twenty years older than Fitz or Libby, and I believe she rented rooms in DC (to Fitz among others) when her husband was trying to recover. I have seen her name as Arabella or as Ruth J. -- J" Thanks, Jared for the update,Sorry for any misinformation. My information was a copy of an interview with a relative of Jimmy B. What is known is that Fitz had 2 wives .Can anyone else add to what is known about Fitz M? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3085. . . . . . . . . . . . Sam Shoemaker From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 6:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When I met him, I was introduced to him as Sam Shoemaker (not Shoe- macher). That was not long before he died. Moreover, in conversations with Episcopal clergy I have always heard him referred to as Sam Shoemaker (not -macher). -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3086. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 100 Hundred Men and Women? From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 4:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 3073 from James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) said: "I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40 stories in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in AA at the time the book was published." ______________________________ From: Arkie Koehl (arkie at arkoehl.com) In my business, advertising, this is known as "acceptable puffery" and is allowed by the Federal Trade Commission :-) Arkie Koehl ______________________________ From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) There have been several stories circulating about that. One is that because the AA members and their spouses attended gatherings together there were at least 100 people involved. Another story I was told by Ruth Hock was that Bill always liked to make the story sound better than it was. It sounded much better to round it off from 40-70 members to 100 members. I would think that there might be more stories which will surface. ______________________________ From: "mertonmm3" (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman (Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became number 2. The reason for the inflationary numbers is twofold. 1) they included the wives, and 2) they were lying. They were trying to sell the idea of 1) a book that hadn't been written, 2) about a cure to a disease that no one thought of as a disease, 3) for which there was no known solution since the dawn of time (contra - Jerry McAuley's Water Street Mission) to an audience which included the richest oil trust's philanthropic people in the world (the Rockefeller Foundation) and even more difficult, the members themselves and, 4) to sell stock subscriptions in a company that had not yet been formed, for the incredibly high price of $25 a share (with inflation I'm guessing today's = $400 - $ 500/sh.) This was called "puffing" or "salesmanship"!!! All the best, -merton ______________________________ From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) I believe it is pretty generally accepted that he was exaggerating on purpose. Either Nell Wing or Ruth Hock said that Bill never let the facts stand between him and a good story. He was promoting A.A. and the Big Book. Tommy H in Baton Rouge ______________________________ From: Jim Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) It is a nice round number. Jim ______________________________ From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com (Gotogo2002L at aol.com) Hi all Were they not referring to the first 100 drunks from the Oxford Group era? Those drunks roaming around aimlessly until the title of the BB came to life? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3087. . . . . . . . . . . . AA and Cuba From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 9:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cuba and AA Take First Step By Mike Fuller Havana, Jan 21 (Prensa Latina) After 13 years of spreading sobriety in Cuba, Alcoholics Anonymous can now count on more support from State sectors to save lives of people suffering from this incurable, progressive and lethal disease. Amid thundering applause at the opening of Alcoholics Anonymous first National Convention in Cuba, Guillermo Barrientos of the Cuban Ministry of Public Health said the door is open for cooperation between the State and AA. More than a decade in Cuba, the international self-help group has experienced prodigious growth on this island, and health authorities here are ready to extend a hand in the fight against alcoholism. Barrientos, chief of the Operative Group for Mental Health and Addictions, said to Prensa Latina "Alcoholism transcends the level of health, and must enter other sectors like the Federation of Cuban Women, Committees for Defense of the Revolution, Federation of Universities and NGO’s like Alcoholics Anonymous." "We started backwards," he explains, "with a public declaration, but now we must define our relationship," and cited a pending meeting with the Ministry of Justice to elaborate legal aspects. "We have to work on issues like technology, training and community integration," he said. The hundreds of alcoholics here in recovery with AA’s 12 Step program are grateful their experience, hope and strength is being recognized. Andy X, manager of the AA General Services Office said "It’s like a dream come true." But as the banner said at the event, the fight against alcoholism is most important for those to come. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3088. . . . . . . . . . . . Announcing outside events during AA meetings From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 5:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3089. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: An AA apology? From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 9:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Jim Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) Charlie Bishop wrote: "Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?" I was at the Regional Forum in Burlington, VT. in '95 and "lawsuits" were discussed at length. Jim ______________________________ From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com (Gotogo2002L at aol.com) Hi There. Please let me know if you get the info...........what was the final result of the paper back edition? Can we in the US have it also? ______________________________ Message 3071 from "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at comcast.net) //A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC Final Report apologies or both? Thanks. My email address is (bishopbk at comcast.net)// ... //Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?// IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3090. . . . . . . . . . . . Smitty and Smithy From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/21/2006 9:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Didn't Bill call Dr. Bob "Smithy" and the son's nickname was "Smitty"? Smitty/Smithy/Tommy in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3091. . . . . . . . . . . . Circle and Triangle From: J. Carey Thomas . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2006 6:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Folks, At an Aero show in Lantana, Florida, I observed a reconstruction of a Civil Air Patrol (CAP on the fuselage) airplane used to spot submarines off the Florida coast in the early 1940's. This plane had a circle surrounding a (solid) triangle as the logo for this operation. My informant wasn't sure of the exact dates these planes were used, but agreed that it was early in the second world war. In love of service, _\|/_ (o o) -----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey---------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3092. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/22/2006 12:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Question on quote from Dr. Bob's Nightmare My first edition, 16th printing, Big Book states on page on page 192: "That was June 10, 1935, and that was my last drink. As I write nearly six years have passed." Of course, the Big Book was written in 1938 and 39, so only "nearly four years" would have passed when Dr. Bob wrote this article. My second edition also states six years (p. 180), but my third and fourth editions state four years (p. 180). I thought that probably this mistake had been corrected when the third edition was published in 1976, but my first edition, first printing, replica from Anonymous Press states four years! So my question is this: Did the original first printing of the first edition use the number four or six on page 192? Thank you for your research and answer. Bob S., Richmond, IN The "Anonymous press" first printing says 4 years The first edition says 6 years The second edition says 6 years! The third edition says 4 years The fourth edition says 4 years [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3093. . . . . . . . . . . . Re:Quote from Dr. Bob''s Nightmare From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2006 2:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Bob, I have an original copy of the First Edition. It says, "As I write, nearly four years have passed." It's obvious that somewhere along the line, when six years had passed, somebody took the liberty of changing it. However, they went back to four years in the 3rd and 4th editions. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3094. . . . . . . . . . . . Steering Committees at the Group level From: Mike Breedlove . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/23/2006 7:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings fellow AA History Lovers: Could you please help me understand the origins of steering committees at the group level? I checked the AAHistoryLovers archive of messages and got several "hits" for steering committee, but the references are actually to Intergroup or District Level Steering Committees, not to group steering committees. Of course I could easily have missed something. Does anyone have an idea of when the first group level steering committee might have started, in which section of the country, and why? If anyone knows anything about the history of how a steering committee started in their town or city I would be interested in hearing about it, and would be willing to compile that information for the list. Please reply to me with any information you might have, and with any documentation you might possess, to my email address, mikeb415@knology.net (mikeb415 at knology.net), not to the list as a whole. This next question is a very broad one, and perhaps to some extent unanswerable. Does anyone know if there is a steering committee being formed very early and then changing its modus operandi when the traditons appeared. Again, reply to me at my email address, mikeb415@knology.net (mikeb415 at knology.net), not to the list. Thanks very much for any assistance you might give. Peace, Mike B., Prattville, Alabama IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3095. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/24/2006 9:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The "Printer's draft" manuscript of the Big Book was sold in June 2004 for 1.56 million dollars, through a telephone bid from California to the auction site in NYC. Bill P. of Hazelden Press verified its authenticity at the time, after his report of viewing the entire manuscript on what we know as our 'first 164 pages.' From what I have learned, this one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in February 1939---the linotype operators made the galleys of Alcoholics Anonymous from this draft. $1.56 million is a great deal of private money, but I wonder if the artifact will ever be shown to the general AA public. Such a shame! even the AA Archives at GSO stayed away from the auction fracas, with AAWS having no opinion on this outside issue: the fiscal speculation of AA archival items. The manuscript was the property of Barry L., confidant of Lois and the writer of AAWS' Living Sober in 1973. Lois gave it to him the mid-1970s and Barry's grand-nephew put it up on the auction block last year Honestly, I was saddened that the nephew never considered contributing it to the AA Archives at GSO, even with its potential tax write-off. In serenity, Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3096. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA Corporations? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/25/2006 1:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Charlie Your assertion about AA's corporate entities that "In effect, they are temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown away and Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist" seems a bit cavalier. What I read in AA history and literature indicates very much the contrary. Given the Fellowship-wide "essential" service duties defined for these corporations (GSB, AAWS, GV) in AA's Traditions and Concepts, it would require approval of 75% of all known AA groups worldwide (in writing) to alter the Traditions and Concepts to allow them to be "thrown away" (see the last item in this posting). The practice of forming an incorporated (or equivalent) General Service Board, General Service Office, and corporate publishing entities with a corresponding General Service Conference oversight, has extended well beyond that of the US/Canada to numerous countries overseas (I believe there are more than 50). If these were all "thrown away" I doubt AA, as we know it, would long survive and would likely dissolve into a number of factions. There are so many members with intense, and intransigent, convictions on what AA "ought to be." Plus the general nature of the prevailing public rhetoric these days is so critically harsh and vitriolic toward opposing viewpoints, I really couldn't imagine what "would still exist" that would be labeled "Alcoholics Anonymous." The AA Service Manual (which can be downloaded from the aa.org web site) contains history and explanations of how the various AA corporations came to be and how they function. There is also a concise explanation in the pamphlet "The AA Group"(which can be downloaded from aa.org web site as well). First off, it would be useful to begin with the premise that the word "corporation" is neither a bad word or a pejorative. Corporations are the primary means for "separating the material from the spiritual." Incorporation has been an integral part of AA since 1938 to establish legal (i.e. lawful or official) entities that hold in trust all of AA's assets in behalf of the entire Fellowship. Those assets include literature inventories and copyrights, trademarks and logos and funds from donations and literature sales. Among the trademarks and logos held in trust are "AA" "Alcoholics Anonymous" "The Big Book" "Box 4-5-9" "The Grapevine" "GV" "Box 1980" and "La Vina" (you were seeking info on this in a different posting - re the Service Manual, Chapter 10). In Apr 1947, Bill W sent a paper to the Alcoholic Foundation titled "Our AA General Service Center - The Alcoholic Foundation of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow." It outlined a history of the Foundation and recommended implementation of a General Service Conference. Bill W wrote "In Part One of this Foundation story we saw how an informal group of early AA's and their non-alcoholic friends banded together in 1938 to spread the AA message as best they could; how this group formed The Alcoholic Foundation, and how some of them became its first Trustees. We saw how the Foundation helped Dr Bob and me through difficult years; how the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" and the AA Office came into being and how, later, the Foundation acquired ownership of the AA book. We observed that the Foundation was chosen by the Groups in 1941, as custodian of their voluntary contributions for the support of the AA General Service Office at New York. We also have learned that, more recently, the Foundation assumed a responsibility for effectiveness and integrity of THE AA GRAPEVINE and that some time ago the AA Groups designated the Foundation Trustees as the overseers of our general public relations. Then early last year, on publication of "The Alcoholics Anonymous Tradition - Twelve Points to Assure Our Future," the Trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation were named the Custodians of these traditions as well. Such has been the gradual process of evolution and common consent by which the Foundation Trustees have come to be regarded, first nationally, and now internationally, as THE GENERAL SERVICE BOARD OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS - Custodians of AA Tradition, General Policy and Headquarters Funds." In the April 1946 Grapevine article, mentioned by Bill W, titled "Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition" (which later became the long form of the Traditions) Bill acknowledged the importance of the corporate entities of the Alcoholic Foundation and Grapevine and what was then called "AA General Headquarters and today called "GSO" [I've truncated the wording for emphasis]: 4 ... no group, regional committee or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect AA as a whole without conferring with the Trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation. On such issues our common welfare is paramount. 6 Problems of money, property and authority may easily divert us from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any considerable property of genuine use to AA should be separately incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the spiritual ... 9 ... The trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation are, in effect, our General Service Committee. They are the custodians of our AA tradition and the receivers of voluntary AA contributions by which they maintain AA General Headquarters and our General Secretary at New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our overall public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principal publication, The AA Grapevine ... In April 1962 the Conference approved the "Twelve Concepts for World Service." Bill further acknowledges the importance of the corporate entities in several of the long form Concepts: III. As a traditional means of creating and maintaining a clearly defined working relation between the groups, the Conference, the AA General Service Board and its several service corporations, staffs, committees and executives, and of thus insuring their effective leadership, it is here suggested that we endow each of these elements of world service with a traditional "Right of Decision." VI. On behalf of AA as a whole, our General Service Conference has the principal responsibility for the maintenance of our world services, and it traditionally has the final decision respecting large matters of general policy and finance. But the Conference also recognizes that the chief initiative and the active responsibility in most of these matters should be exercised primarily by the Trustee members of the Conference when they act among themselves as the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous. VII. The Conference recognizes that the Charter and the Bylaws of the General Service Board are legal instruments: that the Trustees are thereby fully empowered to manage and conduct all of the world service affairs of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is further understood that the Conference Charter itself is not a legal document: that it relies instead upon the force of tradition and the power of the AA purse for its final effectiveness. VIII. The Trustees of the General Service Board act in two primary capacities: (a) With respect to the larger matters of over-all policy and finance, they are the principal planners and administrators. They and their primary committees directly manage these affairs. (b) But with respect to our separately incorporated and constantly active services, the relation of the Trustees is mainly that of full stock ownership and of custodial oversight which they exercise through their ability to elect all directors of these entities. IX. Good service leaders, together with sound and appropriate methods of choosing them, are at all levels indispensable for our future functioning and safety. The primary world service leadership once exercised by the founders of AA must necessarily be assumed by the Trustees of the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous. X. Every service responsibility should be matched by an equal service authority -- the scope of such authority to be always well defined whether by tradition, by resolution, by specific job description or by appropriate charters and bylaws. XI. While the Trustees hold final responsibility for AA's world service administration, they should always have the assistance of the best possible standing committees, corporate service directors, executives, staffs, and consultants. Therefore the composition of these underlying committees and service boards, the personal qualifications of their members, the manner of their induction into service, the systems of their rotation, the way in which they are related to each other, the special rights and duties of our executives, staffs, and consultants, together with a proper basis for the financial compensation of these special workers, will always be matters for serious care and concern. In Apr 1969 at the 19th General service Conference, Bob H, the newly chosen general manager of GSO summarized AA's service structure and the relationship of its parts "To sum up: the Board formulates policy; the Conference approves policy; and GSO implements policy." The 1976 Conference (and prior Conferences) expanded a 1955 provision of the Conference Charter to specify that any change to the Steps, Traditions or Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of the General Service Conference Charter, would require written approval of 75% of the AA Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory Action makes any change whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma). They are our "Three Legacies" of Recovery, Unity and Service, which we are supposed to pass on - not "throw away." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Bishop Jr. Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 4:30 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA Corporations? Hi all: help needed on below: //The following are all CORPORATIONS: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.; the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.; and the Alcoholics Anonymous Grapevine, Inc. They are service organizations and corporations whose purpose and existence is to serve the Fellowship. In effect, they are temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown away and Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist. Historically speaking, what group or body of AA members had the authority to form these three corporations? How would they have to be called together if they ever wished to vote on dismantling or discarding these corporations? Is provision made for dismantling and discarding any of these corporations in the Twelve Concepts, and who is given the power to take this action in the Twelve Concepts?/ Thanks, servus, Charlie B. "Charlie Bishop Jr." = (bishopbk at comcast.net) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3097. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Announcing outside events during AA meetings From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 8:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, If the dance is being put on by AA not a problem. Joe _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gotogo2002L@aol.com Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 10:54 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Announcing outside events during AA meetings Hi All Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _____ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers " on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3098. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Smitty and Smithy From: Corey Franks . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 9:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HI.. Both Sue and Smitty Docs children told me many times that that was how they were both addressed. Thats my additon here, THX. Corey F. Tom Hickcox wrote: Didn't Bill call Dr. Bob "Smithy" and the son's nickname was "Smitty"? Smitty/Smithy/Tommy in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3099. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 7:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From what I have learned, this > one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the > Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in > February 1939--- Just a quick geographical correction. The Cornwall Press was located in Cornwall, NY located in Orange County, NY. The first edition printings were done there as were several of the 2nd edition printings. The company merged with another and from what I understand, further printings were done in New Jersey. When the galleys were gone over, it was done by Bill W., Hank P., Ruth Hock and Dorothy Snyder who came up to Cornwall to go over them. As far as Barry's family giving anything to AAWS, due to a history of problems, litigation and pending litigation over royalties for Living Sober They had no desire to give AAWS anything. There was a great deal of animosity generated. I remember going over all the drafts for Living Sober which were housed in a friend's apartment in Connecticut. This friend had many of Barry's materials as well as another friend's materials which were left to him (Ron was involved with many of the private recordings of Bill W. and Bill speaking at his anniversaries in NYC - I think close to 200 of them and left them to Dennis when he passed on). I have no idea where these materials might be today (I do have some guesses). Dennis was a collector of AA memorabilia and had a small but amazing collection. There were some great "spook", LSD and vitamin B tapes but as I was only allowed to listen to portions of them, not make copies or take notes, unless they surface again, the material contained in them might be lost. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3100. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 8:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ" I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3101. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Announcing outside events during AA meetings From: Jim Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 11:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gotogo asked Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall? You can do or say whatever you want but just be prepared to deal with the consequences. AA Police #242 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3102. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Announcing outside events during AA meetings From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 1:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm not sure what your question has to do with AA history, but if you are trying to find out if AA members can have diametrically opposed viewpoints and all think they are right, it's a guaranteed certainty. Alcoholics can announce whatever they want according to their group conscience. Groups are autonomous - but autonomy should not be used as a loophole to get around what the group members consider appropriate in their understanding and practice of the Traditions. Similarly, Alcoholics can decline to announce whatever they want according to their group conscience. Minorities demonstrate unity when they cooperate with the group conscience decisions of the majority. Things can get a bit dicey, and divisive, when the Traditions are viewed legalistically as opposed to being looked at as spiritual principles oriented to maintaining group unity. Many AA members like to keep announcements limited to activities directly related to AA (e.g. a meetings, service committees, conferences and conventions, etc.). Just because something is attended by AA members it does not means that it is an AA event. There is no such thing as an AA retreat, an AA golf tournament, or an AA dance although AA members as certainly free to join in such activities. Of course, all the above is only one member's viewpoint. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gotogo2002L@aol.com Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 9:54 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Announcing outside events during AA meetings Hi All Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3103. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Smitty and Smithy From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 12:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yes Bill W did use the nicknames "Smithy" and "Smitty" to distinguish between father and son. Young Bob was still called "Smitty" up to the time he passed away. Incidentally, Dr Bob was supposed to have quite a sense of humor for nicknames that he would come up with for others. Among the nicknames he had for Sister Ignatia were "Little Angel AA" and "Ig." He also liked to use jargon which would likely get him in politically incorrect hot water today (i.e. he would refer to women as a "frail"). Cheers Arthur ______________________________ To add to Arthur's list, J. D. H., the founder of the first AA group in Indiana, says (in his memoirs which he wrote many years later) that when he got sober in Akron and was over at Dr. Bob and Anne's house every day, Dr. Bob always called him "Abercrombie." Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3104. . . . . . . . . . . . RE:Announcing outside events during AA meetings From: Mark Everett . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 3:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Friends, While I think this issue has a questionable place on a forum on AA History, it has everything to do with our traditions. Tradition 6, short form states, "An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose." Now, if there is a charge for admission, an AA Dance or anything else becomes an Outside Enterprise. If it is offered as free, then it could be argued that it is not much more than an extension of the meeting, though some may hold that it is still a violation of some other traditions. I have also seen occasions where certain outside enterprises have offered "free" AA activities with an underlying purpose of promoting their recovery store, club, hospital or other services. That's called advertising, and we avoid any appearance of promoting that, too. I was taught to make any Related but still Non AA Announcements just prior to the opening of a meeting, therefore these types of announcements are not made at an AA meeting, and not appearing to be endorsed by AA ************************************************** Mark Everett 517 Cherry Hill Lane Lebanon, Ohio 45036-7608 Phone: (513) 228-0078 Cell: (513) 850-4911 eFax: (267) 851-2083 e-mail: mark@go-concepts.com ************************************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3105. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? From: Mark Everett . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 4:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all, Boy, I love these types of things. I went looking through my assorted collection of Big Books and found the following from Dr. Bob's Nightmare. First Edition, 9th and 12th printings - 6 years Second Edition, 1st printing - 6 years Third Edition, 1st, 5th and 7th printing - 6 years and Third Edition, 51st printing - 4 years Third Edition (soft cover 8th printing - Sept 1988) referencing the 32nd printing (also 1988) - 4 years Fourth Edition, 1st and 8th printing - 4 years Knockoff copy of "Original Manuscript" with notes from Clarence Snyder - 4 years So, it appears to me that some editor, after the 7th printing of the 3rd edition in 1980 and prior to September 1988, decided to do the math, and returned Dr. Bob's story to a logical number of years. This is sort of like the same mystery with "these" and "those" in the 12th step. Enjoy Mark ************************************************** Mark Everett 517 Cherry Hill Lane Lebanon, Ohio 45036-7608 Phone: (513) 228-0078 Cell: (513) 850-4911 eFax: (267) 851-2083 e-mail: mark@go-concepts.com ************************************************** IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3106. . . . . . . . . . . . AAhistory From: Emmanuel John . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 5:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Your question is one that I have dealt with a lot in my 21 years. First of all we have our 1st tradition which states that our common welfare should come before all else. Is this good for AA? It goes on to say that the Unity of our members is the primary goal as disunity would tear us apart. The nay-sayers are probably more of a force for disunity then the event could ever be. So does the event aid in unity? I personally believe that the founders would have been very supportive of these types of events and announcements. In law there is often the phrase, "the spirit of the law," why it was written. I don't think that the tradition aims at limiting these types of activities If our ultimate authority is a "loving God and how he will express himself" then we could ask what He might consider on this issue, the dance is a good thing despite people who are just down right negative. We're not supposed to have an opinion on outside issues so what one group does is not the other groups business unless if effects AA as a whole. This should then be discussed with their local Intergroup office. Your dance could be considered by some as the way "A loving God" is expressing Itself in your group. Does it effect AA as a whole? Only for the better but we must be careful where proceeds if any end up. AA bull roasts/dances are common fundraisers Just like our conventions, gratitude breakfasts' which are also announced in meetings. A group does however have the right to choose to not announce these types of events by way of a vote. Is it carrying the AA message? Most important of all, can people without money attend without feeling singled out, or made to feel ashamed because they don't have money (not so with many of our fundraisers). Admission should be set up in such a way that it is seen as a donation and not an admission/ticket charge. The have nots should be encouraged to attend. Is it an outside enterprise? Well if it's in the same building and using the group name then its not an outside event, if an autonomous group decided to put the dance on then it is an extending activity of the group or a special "lengthened" meeting A major issue is that the monies collected in the basket during the meeting should only go to purposes for which the money was given. A dance is probably not an understood allocation for those having contributed. Now if your meeting has the dance every month and everyone knows that this will be a use for the money then that might be acceptable. I personally belong to a group that puts on more events then most groups in the area and somehow we give more money to Intergroup, with many other contributor meeting, meeting several times a week, giving less. Finally. I think that we have to consider if this makes the AA way of life more attractive to the new comer who might think that we are a glum lot. People who don't like these announcements are usually just not very fun to begin with. Enjoy the dance! Emmanuel Baltimore Message: 4 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:54:03 EST From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com Subject: Announcing outside events during AA meetings Hi All Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Peace and Happy Days Emmanuel S. John, LCSW-C PRIVACY/CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING: This message is intended for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, the disclosure of which is governed by 42CFR, Part 2, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPPA) and other applicable Federal and State law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this information is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the related message. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3107. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator out of town Fri-Mon Jan 27-30 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 8:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I will be out of town from Friday January 27 to Monday January 30, 2006. Please hold your messages until then. Thanks much! Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3108. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 100 Hundred Men and Women? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 2:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W did like to be "generous" in his numerical estimates. However, the "100 men" part likely derived from a prospectus Hank P put together to offer shares of stock to underwrite the production of the book. The shares were offered at $25 which would be around $325 using the 2003 Consumer Price Index (CPI). The graphic image file I have of the prospectus shows a date of June 1939 on its cover which has the title "Alcoholics Anonymous." The date is likely in error since the prospectus contents announce that the Alcoholic Foundation had recently been formed and that ten chapters of the book had been completed. Hank's story is "The Unbeliever." What eventually came to be called "Works Publishing Co" was originally proposed to be named "The One Hundred Men Corporation" in the prospectus. The proposed title for what became "Alcoholics Anonymous" (the Big Book) was "One Hundred Men." The "and women" part turned out to be Florence R of NY (as Merton noted) whose story is "A Feminine Victory" (Marty M didn't arrive until after the manuscript had been distributed). Florence R, was the first woman in AA and was sober around a year when she wrote her story. She later moved to Washington DC to join up with Fitz M (whose story is "Our Southern Friend") to help start AA there. Sadly, Florence returned to drinking (Fitz M was called to the morgue to identify her). A non-alcoholic wife of an AA member also had her personal story printed in the first edition. She was Marie B whose story is "An Alcoholic's Wife." Her husband was Walter B whose story was "The Backslider." Walter was also the first patient admitted to St Thomas Hospital in Akron when Dr Bob and Sister Ignatia began their collaboration. When Bill W visited Dr Bob in November 1937, they "compared notes." 40 cases were sober (more than 20 for over a year). All were once diagnosed as hopeless. In a meeting at T Henry Williams' home, Bill's ideas, for a book, hospitals and how to expand the movement with paid missionaries, narrowly passed by 2 votes among 18 members. The NY group was more enthusiastic. This is what led to the start of the writing of the Big Book. Between November 1937, when there were "40 cases sober" up to the early months of 1939 (the Big Book was printed in April 1939) it is not inconceivable that membership jumped to 100 or thereabouts. Plus, like Jim B noted "it's a nice round number." And would at most constitute a "fib" as opposed to a "lie." I don't believe it was ever intended for every member in 1938/1939 to have their personal stories printed in the first edition. Stories from Akron and vicinity dominated since they were the first group and largest in membership. The manuscript story of an Akron member, "Ace Full - Seven - Eleven," was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too pleased with changes made to the first drafts of the Steps and basic text). Only 29 (not 40) personal stories were included in the first printing of the first edition Big Book (10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1 from the west coast - which was ghost written by Ruth Hock and later removed from the book in its second printing). Cheers Arthur ______________________________ Message 3073 from James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) said: "I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40 stories in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in AA at the time the book was published." ______________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3109. . . . . . . . . . . . Trust God, Clean House, Help Others From: Cloydg . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 11:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Group, One of my sponsee's asked me a question. I tried to find the answer as I had thought it came from steps 6 and 7. Unfortunately, when I looked it up on our reference pages. I still could not find the answer to this nagging question. Maybe you can answer it for me? Where did, "Trust God, Clean House, Help Others", come from? Is it in any AA literature In love and service, Clyde G. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3110. . . . . . . . . . . . First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/26/2006 3:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The first woman was Jane S. in Akron and she beat Florence by one month. Diz T. ______________________________ From: "mertonmm3" (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman (Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became number 2. ______________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3111. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2006 1:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 1999 General Service Conference passed the following Advisory Action: The annual limit contributed to the General Service Office from individual A.A. members be increased from $1,000 to $2,000 and that bequests from A.A. members should be subject to the same limit and be on a one-time-only basis and not in perpetuity. This seems to be focused on money donations. The AA Archives are called the "General Service Office Archives" and are one of the departments of the GSO (re the Service Manual pgs S72-S73). AA paid a hefty sum to purchase Dr Bob's Big Book from his son. Archives fall into an area where, as collectors items, their monetary value could be enormous. But there is also the historical value of the items integral to the founding of AA which might very well take precedence. I suspect that if the manuscript were donated to AA the decision would likely be up to the Conference on what to do and how to do it. I know of deceased members who have bequeathed papers, books and other assorted artifacts and memorabilia to the AA Archives. The collectors value of the items would exceed $2,000 by orders of magnitude. So I don't know if there is any notion of a cap on the monetary value. Oh how I would love to find out, for certain, who "Dr Howard" was. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jlobdell54 Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:19 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Printer's Copy and Dr. Howard Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ" I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3112. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2006 12:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How interesting to learn of another early AA woman! Still another was Mary Campbell, from somewhere in the South, I believe. Dave and I don't know her sobriety date or when she arrived in AA, but it was before April 1939 when Marty Mann went from Blythewood to her first AA meeting, held at the Wilsons' home in Brooklyn. Mary actually visited Marty at Blythewood. She relapsed in 1944, then returned to AA and stayed sober until she died in the 1990s. Maybe there are other early regional examples. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3113. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2006 2:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The phrase "1. Trust God, 2. Clean House, 3. Help Others" is typed on a prescription pad with Dr. Bob's name at the top. His signature is at the bottom, and the phrase "always remember it" is in handwriting at the top. The problem is that a good AA historian once showed me that both the handwritten phrase at the top, and the signature at the bottom, seem to have been scanned and copied from a genuine letter by Dr. Bob, and then superimposed on the picture of the prescription pad using a computer art program. It seemed pretty convincing to me. But I cannot remember where the genuine letter is found. Does anybody in the group know anything more about this issue over the authenticity of the prescription? ______________________________ From: "Cheryl F" (learning3legacies at cox.net) Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:43pm Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Trust God, Clean House, Help Others The saying came from Dr. Bob. It was written on one of Dr.Bob's prescription pads. I've seen a copy of it in the archives. Cheryl F Leander Tx ______________________________ From: Azor521@aol.com (Azor521 at aol.com) Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:01pm Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Trust God, Clean House, Help Others Ya might check this out.... http://www.nicd.us/AAand12-stepresources.html Dr. Bob wrote this prescription- 1. Trust God. 2. Clean House. 3. Help Others ______________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3114. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Trust God, Clean House, Help Others From: John S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2006 9:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "John S." (quasso at mindspring.com) Trust God, Clean House, Help Others "The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." Pg 98 BB The only other reference I've heard is Franklin W. from Olive Branch MS who claimed authorship of the phrase "Trust God, Clean House and help others." Of course the principle of helping others is all throughout our literature. In love and service John ______________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR: The sentence on page 98 in the Big Book gives us two thirds of the phrase ("trust in God and clean house"), but the full phrase "Trust God, Clean House, Help Others" does not show up in the Big Book in those precise words. Members have written in showing that these words could be used as short summaries of numerous things which are said in the Big Book. But showing all the parallels in the Big Book to the basic teaching of this little slogan does not, in and of itself, tell us who added "help others" to the phrase on page 98 in the Big Book, and began popularizing it as an AA slogan. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana ______________________________ From: Toto24522@aol.com (Toto24522 at aol.com) Big Book page 164 A Vision for You " ....... you must remember that your real reliance is always upon Him. (Trust God) Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. ( Help others) The answers will come, if your own house is in order. ( Clean House) See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others." "Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. (Trust God) Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. (Clean House) Give freely of what you find and join us. ( Help Others) "We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny. May God bless you and keep you -- until then." In simple form, the steps are: 1-3: Trust God 4-11: Clean House 12: Help Others ______________________________ From: "ArtSheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Source of "clean house, trust God, help others": For the basic ideas, see Big Book pages 14-15, 89, 90, 94, 97, 98, 132. Also Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions pages 56, 60, 63. My own viewpoint: Clean house: Step 1 (of booze or forget about all the other Steps), then Steps 4 thru 10 (to clear away the obstacles we put in God's way and then continue the housecleaning regularly with Step 10) Trust in God: Steps 2, 3, 6, 7, 11 (culminating in the regular practice of praying only for knowledge of God's will and power to carry it out) Help others: Steps 8, 9 and 12 (in the spirit of the "golden rule" or "greatest commandment" as my church calls it). There are a number of places around the country that describe Steps 10, 11 and 12 as "maintenance Steps." Clean house, trust in God and help others certainly is a nice concise description of these Steps (sort of like Dr Bob reducing them all down to "love and service"). As for where the saying "clean house, trust in God and help others" originated, my guess will be that several hundred locations will claim it originated in their local area, and they will all be correct (rule # 62). Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3115. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in India: arranging counselling for known offenders From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2006 8:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Helping them kick the bottle Staff Reporter Alcoholics Anonymous arranges counselling for known offenders CHENNAI - India: Alcoholics Anonymous, the liquor de-addiction support group, will tie up with the city police to help repeat offenders kick the bottle. At a meeting held at the Zion Church in Chindatripet on Friday, Alcoholics Anonymous invited a group of more than 100 known offenders and their families and counselled on how life without liquor could change them. The invitees even had a role model they aspire to become: a person who had a history of criminal life but had reformed over the past two years. The coordinator for the programme said the idea was for those present to have someone to relate to. "He is someone they can relate to. He was a repeated offender for over 10 years. He eventually gave up liquor and reformed himself." The organisers said Police Commissioner R. Nataraj, who was the chief guest, was so impressed with the idea that he even offered the auditoria in three new police stations for conducting future meetings. Representatives of Alcoholics Anonymous said de-addiction programmes and support groups closely worked with police and prison authorities in the United States for the past six decades. They hoped that similar programmes would be possible in the future. Tamil Nadu - Chennai http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/29/stories/2006012915490300.htm Copyright C 2006, The Hindu. Republication or redissemination of the contents of this screen are expressly prohibited without the written consent of The Hindu. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3116. . . . . . . . . . . . 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2006 4:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My sponsor told me about AA having a "statement of principles" in 1950. He tells me they originally came out in 1948 but that no proof is obtainable from New York. Does anyone know about this? The statement of principles of 1948 is in Appendix G in Mitch K's book "How it Worked." Does anyone know why these were replaced by the 1950 statement of principles. Do they give General Service more power? Why does Royal S., the attorney who incorporated the Grapevine, on pg 199 say the trustees suppressed the statement of 1948? t/y Shakey Mike G. Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3117. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2006 5:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Rick, As Stated in my original post this appears to be the draft edited by Hank P. and Dr. Howard. It does not appear to be anything like a draft that a publisher could work from and if you look closely at the 4 pages from the Sotheby's Catelog I think you will agree. Its quite obviously an intermediate sort of draft as it doesn't remotely agree with the finished product. Also as stated previously there are two handwritten references to Dr. Howard and most of the handwriting is Hank P.'s in my opinion. I disagee with the Sotheby assertion that this is the final copy that went to Cornwall Press. This document is far more significant historically. I am quite cautious with such an assertion as their experts are quite meticulous. Please look to what's available facimilewise rather than what secondhand reporters tell us. All the best!! -merton ---------------------------------------------------------- --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricktompkins" wrote: > > The "Printer's draft" manuscript of the Big Book was sold in June 2004 for 1.56 million dollars, through a telephone bid from California to the auction site in NYC. Bill P. of Hazelden Press verified its authenticity at the time, after his report of viewing the entire manuscript on what we know as our 'first 164 pages.' From what I have learned, this one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in February 1939---the linotype operators made the galleys of Alcoholics Anonymous from this draft. > $1.56 million is a great deal of private money, but I wonder if the artifact will ever be shown to the general AA public. Such a shame! even the AA Archives at GSO stayed away from the auction fracas, with AAWS having no opinion on this outside issue: the fiscal speculation of AA archival items. > The manuscript was the property of Barry L., confidant of Lois and the writer of AAWS' Living Sober in 1973. Lois gave it to him the mid-1970s and Barry's grand-nephew put it up on the auction block last year > Honestly, I was saddened that the nephew never considered contributing it to the AA Archives at GSO, even with its potential tax write-off. > In serenity, > Rick, Illinois > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3118. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed From: mr.grassroots . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2006 10:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I posted a request for information on the Harper Brothers printings of the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" some time ago but seem to have a problem connecting/receiveing feedback. (Probably my doing since I am not completely familiar with this board yet.) In general I was wondering as to how many copies Harpers did of this work? different printings? Total number printed? Thank You in advance for your patience and will keep checking back in. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3119. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/29/2006 5:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The name Curry is extremely interesting as it was one of names mentioned by Bill and Hank during their 2 week stock redemption debate, as a creditor of Henry G. Parkhurst, Inc. (unincorporated in reality)(the name Honor Dealers was not used in this discussion, Hank' contention was that he was principally liable as the company bore his namesake so he owned the furniture. Bill pointed out that as treasurer , an officer, he was equally liable). One of the other creditors was Sinclair Oil. As I stated originally after reviewing the 4 pages from the Sotheby's catelog its my very stong opinion that this wasn't a "publisher's draft" but rather an intermittent draft and is mostly in Hank P's and very likely the mysterious Dr. Howard's hand. The one page in Bill's hand was written many years after publication. Hopefully more people can view the photo fascimiles from the catelog to understand my point. If there's anyone living in the Essex or Morris County area's please check the various city directories for Dr. Marcus A. Curry. Thank you jlobdell for this possible lead into identifying the elusive Dr. Howard. Greystone Park yielded several very early members including Morgan R., from Glen Ridge, who spoke on the radio about AA. Source - documents in GSO Archives 1939-40 for unpublished yet Black Sheep manuscript) All the Best!!! -merton ----------------------------------------- --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jlobdell54" wrote: > > Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of > either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given > year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been > given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives > are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS > restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ" > I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane > at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park > Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3120. . . . . . . . . . . . Sauerkraut remedy From: Rich Foss . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2006 12:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob and the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut. Thanks. Rich IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3121. . . . . . . . . . . . Change of terms From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/30/2006 10:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi. Does any one know why the term ex-alcoholic was replaced with ex-problem drinker in the big book. God bless Dave IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3122. . . . . . . . . . . . Ray O''K died Jan. 28th From: John Pine . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/27/2006 11:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII FYI, an eloquent and influential member of the fellowship, Ray O'K., died in Florida earlier this week and will be buried in Larchmont, NY on Saturday, 1/28. Here is a link to a newspaper obituary. http://www.nyjnews.com/obituary/obit.php3?id=1912213 John P. Richmond, VA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3123. . . . . . . . . . . . Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 From: Soberholic . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/28/2006 1:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has anybody has ever brought up a question about the connection between the theory of the enneagram and the 4th Step in 12x12? Does anyone know if Bill W. was aware of the early enneagram movement? In the theory of the enneagram, in the instinctual subtypes, each type also has three main instinctual subtypes - the Self-Preservation, Sexual and Social subtypes. In the area of ego-fixations and the deadly sins, the Enneagram types have also been correlated with the traditional Seven Deadly Sins plus two additional descriptors - 'deceit' and 'fear'. The '7 sins + 2' need to be understood in a much more specific meaning than usual." Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3124. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshop From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2006 1:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Because of the hurricane which struck New Orleans just before the National Archives Workshop was to take place, it has had to be rescheduled and relocated to another part of Louisiana. We have had to miss a year, to allow these new accommodations to be obtained, but everything is now set up to hold the workshop in Baton Rouge. 10th Annual National Archives Workshop September 14-17, 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana Holiday Inn South 9940 Airline HiWay Baton Rouge, Louisiana. 70816 (255) 924-7021 Fax: (225) 924-9816 Mention N.A.W. (by August 31, 2006) for $79.00 room rate. http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/ Co-Chairs: Jimmy H. phone 504-382-9286 or email jhardingnola@cox.net (jhardingnola at cox.net) Bobby B. phone 337-662-3402 or email danieb@att.net (danieb at att.net) __________________________________ Sent to us by: "Area64archives.org" daggerrose@area64tnarchives.org (daggerrose at area64tnarchives.org) http://area64tnarchives.org/1stquarter2006/index.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3125. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed From: j_oys5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mr.grassroots" wrote: > > I posted a request for information on the Harper Brothers printings of > the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" some time ago but seem > to have a problem connecting/receiveing feedback. (Probably my doing > since I am not completely familiar with this board yet.) > > In general I was wondering as to how many copies Harpers did of this > work? different printings? Total number printed? > > Thank You in advance for your patience and will keep checking back in. > Good Afternoon Mr. Grassroots I would suggest contacting the Archives desk at the General Service Office in New York. They should be able to provide you with the information that you are seeking. I believe it should also be available in the 1957 Final Conference Report. Thelr Ph. # is (212)-870-8700 , website www.aa.org In Service Jerry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3126. . . . . . . . . . . . Accident From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 4:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Friends (and a few others), On Saturday, Jan. 28th, I suffered a serious accident that, though non-fatal, will substantially lay me up for some time. Please do not write of your sympapthy and concern, in which I trust. I came home from the hospital to over 700 messages. I will reply according to my ability and larger priorities. Thank you for your consideration. ernie kurtz ___________________________________ From the moderator: Dr. Kurtz, a Harvard-trained historian, is the author of "Not God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous" and "The Spirituality of Imperfection: Storytelling and the Search for Meaning." He is widely recognized as the leading academic historian in the field of AA history. A good history of the AA movement in the 20th century will have to include a section on his major ideas and contributions. The title of his major book reminds us that we must first recognize that we ourselves are NOT God before we will turn to the higher power of the twelve step program (who is the REAL God) and ask for help. I do not have any information myself, beyond what appears in Ernie's letter. If I learn more, I will let you know. Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3127. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sauerkraut remedy From: Peggy Anna . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2006 5:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a book written in 1993 by Don Julio DeMedici Santaleone, entitled "The James Connection or Sauerkraut, Tomatoes, and Karo Syrup" The author has been a member of AA for over 20 years now and lives in Rochester, New York. In his introduction he states "as related in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (p 74) a detoxification treatment of a combination of tomatoes, sauerkraut and Karo corn syrup was administered by Bill W. to Dr. Bob in order to supply Bob with vitamins and energy so that Bob could perform surgery". Peggy Anna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Foss" To: Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sauerkraut remedy > > An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice > treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with > replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our > literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob > and > the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's > simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way > out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut. > Thanks. > Rich > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3128. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 From: James Bliss . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2006 5:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From a quick research on the Eneagram, the theory was not formulated until 1960 (the nine types), which means that it had no association with the development of the 4th step. Please see: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/history.asp It describes the various people in the wikipedia discussion and what their theories were. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3129. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant February dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 10:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang. Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill and sophomore class suspended Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from professionalization. Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use in his practice. Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts" for "we ought" in the Big Book. Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC. Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in pamphlet form for many years. Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA. Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is published. Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get married. Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner. Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA by Larry J. Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died. Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank P ("The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this as happening Feb 13, 1937 Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition) sobriety date. Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W. Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem, NC. Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was born. Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members. Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two years before, at a New York AA meeting. Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases. Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA dies. Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on AA by Seymour Rothman. Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to tape the Big Book. Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3130. . . . . . . . . . . . Trust God, Clean House, Help Others From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/31/2006 5:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It was interesting that we are discussing the prescription to "Trust God, Clean House, Help Others" at the time the phrase appears in the obituary of Ray OK. It is a clever way to speak of his A.A. membership without actually mentioning Alcoholics Anonymous: ... Following the credo: "Trust God, Clean House and Help Others", Mr. [O'K] was active in many organizations and fellowships. He was well known for his work with the New York State Bar Association, where he was Chairman of the Committee on Lawyer Alcoholism. He also worked tirelessly on issues relating to alcoholism in the legal profession with the ABA and ILAA. ... http://www.nyjnews.com/obituary/obit.php3?id=1912213 ----- IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3131. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W and Dr. Bob From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/1/2006 2:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings and sponsor, I have even checked the internet. How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories instead of in the main section (164 pgs)? I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages. Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit, except that Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't. Thank you for being here, Jim S/Pensacola, FL IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3132. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2006 5:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Diz As the eloquent John Wayne would have said "hold on there pilgrim." The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA (in 1935) was the legendary "Lil" of the "Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241). "Lil" reputedly sobered up outside AA. However, it is said she never got far enough along to attend a meeting. I'm not sure if the dry dates of Florence R or Jane S can be stated with certainty or precision. Take for example Dr Bob's stated dry date (June 10, 1935)and the starting date of the AMA convention in Atlantic City, when he had his last binge for a few days (also June 10, 1935). "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides Jane S' relative dry date through old-timer Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came into AA in February 1937" (then on pg 122) "remembered that Jane S was making the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in 1937, about the same time he started" [Jane's trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241 later indicates that Jane was the wife of a "vice-president of a large steel company." The key words in her relative dry date are "about the same time" [relative to February 1937]. I can't find a hard written reference to confirm it, but sources I trust for credibility indicate that Jane S stayed sober for only a few months. "Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it states "The name 'One Hundred Men' fell by the wayside because of objections of Florence R, at that time the only female member." It's odd that Jane S' name isn't also mentioned as a female member "at that time." Is it possible that that she had already fell off the wagon and departed? The edited story section of the Big Book was completed "in the latter part of January 1939" (re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of the manuscript was likely completed in the latter part of March (the book was published April 4, 1939). Florence R, states in her story "... The drinking ended the morning I got there ..." ["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd time]. She then later states "That was more than a year ago." In manuscript versions, circulating around the internet, the sentence read "That was several years ago" which is quite obviously wrong. The key words in her relative dry date are "more than a year ago" [but from when?]. So how to do the reckoning to establish female member primacy? It seems to be a contest between the precision inherent in the relative values denoted by "about" or "more than." Is Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall on February 1st or 28th (that's almost a month's difference) or February 14 (to split the difference)or could late January (31st) or early March (1st)? Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year ago" relative to late January 1939 (when the edited stories were completed) or mid to late March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If it is March 1939, then Jane S may have primacy (and that is only a "may have"). If "more than" is relative to January or February 1939 then Florence R has primacy or perhaps it's a tie. The problem is does "more than" mean a day, a week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or 14 months or what? So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence. Why? Florence stayed dry for over a year. Jane S lasted for a few months. If it's mainly about when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats them both. If the elapsed time before they returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member of AA and should be a founder. However, it probably boils down to "truth by choice." In any event the matter is not by any means certain. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Diz Titcher Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:58 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First woman was Jane S., not Florence The first woman was Jane S. in Akron and she beat Florence by one month. Diz T. ______________________________ From: "mertonmm3" (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com) Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman (Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became number 2. ______________________________ Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3133. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W and Dr. Bob From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 1:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Jim "Bill's Story" and "There is a Solution" were the first two chapters written. They were used as examples to show what the book would be like while it was being developed. I don't think the early AA members shared your viewpoint about what comprised "the important stuff" in the Big Book. Quite often members will trumpet the "basic text" of the Big Book and give short-shrift to the personal stories. The "basic text" very much suggests otherwise. Also, in "AA Comes of Age" (pg 164) Bill W writes "We had not gone much farther with the text of the book when it was evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a story or case history section. We would have to produce evidence in the form of living proof, written testimonials of our membership itself. It was felt also that the story section could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the text itself might not." Among the "important stuff" in the Big Book basic text there are 5 explicit references to the personal stories: 1 - Page 29: "Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-three [forty-two in the 4th edition] personal experiences. Each individual, in the personal stories, describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way he established his relationship with God. These give a fair cross section of our membership and a clear-cut idea of what has actually happened in their lives. We hope no one will consider these self-revealing accounts in bad taste. Our hope is that many alcoholic men and women, desperately in need, will see these pages, and we believe that it is only by fully disclosing ourselves and our problems that they will be persuaded to say, "Yes, I am one of them too; I must have this thing." 2 - Page 50: "In our personal stories you will find a wide variation in the way each teller approaches and conceives of the Power which is greater than himself. Whether we agree with a particular approach or conception seems to make little difference. Experience has taught us that these are matters about which, for our purpose, we need not be worried. They are questions for each individual to settle for himself. On one proposition, however, these men and women are strikingly agreed. Every one of them has gained access to, and believes in, a Power greater than himself. This Power has in each case accomplished the miraculous, the humanly impossible. As a celebrated American statesman put it, "Let's look at the record." 3 - Page 55: "In this book you will read the experience of a man who thought he was an atheist. His story is so interesting that some of it should be told now. His change of heart was dramatic, convincing, and moving." 4 - Page 58 (a familiar reading at meetings): "Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps." [note: this was not written to be the format of a speaker meeting - it was written to get the reader to read the stories to find out what they had]. 5 - Pages 112-113: .. But after his next binge, ask him if he would really like to get over drinking for good. Do not ask if he would do it for you or anyone else. Just would he like to? The chances are he would. Show him your copy of this book and tell him what you have found out about alcoholism. Show him that as alcoholics, the writers of the book understand. Tell him some of the interesting stories you have read. If you think he will be shy of a spiritual remedy, ask him to look at the chapter on alcoholism. Then perhaps he will be interested enough to continue. I've often wondered how those who purchase the abridged edition are able to follow the instructions in the basic text without the material that the basic text makes reference to. "The Doctor's Opinion" by Dr Silkworth, started as page 1 in the 1st edition Big Book. Dr Esther L Richards of John Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, was sent a copy of the first two chapters mentioned above. She wrote to Bill that he should get a first rate medical view at the beginning of the book. So Bill W's story starts the numbered chapters and Dr Bob's story starts the personal stories. Seems like a good fit for both our co-founders. After all, Bill W was AA #1 and Dr Bob was AA #2. AA #3 didn't make it into the book until the 2nd edition (his discharge from the hospital marked the start of AA's first group Akron #1). The first page in the Big Book starts immediately after the front cover. The last page ends immediately prior to the back cover. My friendly appeal to you would be to consider the "important stuff" to be everything that exists between those two covers. This way you get your full money's worth. (rule #62) Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim S. Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 1:31 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and Dr. Bob I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings and sponsor, I have even checked the internet. How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories instead of in the main section (164 pgs)? I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages. Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit, except that Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't. Thank you for being here, Jim S/Pensacola, FL Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3134. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2006 12:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Doctor Bob's story is in the first part of the Big Book as well as being the first chapter in the story section. It starts on page 155 in "A vision for You." It has been talking about Bill's "journey to a certain western city" when he needed to talk to another alcoholic. Reference to "a certain resident of that town" means Dr Bob. Then the story of AA Number three is introduced on page 156 where he is "a first class alcoholic prospect." BTW: When the Big Book was first published, did they ever say that the stories weren't "important stuff" as implied here? :-) When the Big Book said that a new prospect should "read this book," it didn't say he should only read "part of this book." I wonder when that trend to worshiping the first part while dismissing the story part started happening. "Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened to us, and what we are like now -- but you don't need to read those stories." Bah! It's time for a reality check. They included "our personal adventures before and after" for a good reason other than to make the book thicker. ____________________ En2joy! Tom En2ger -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Jim S." > > I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings > and sponsor, I have even checked the internet. > > How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories > instead of in the main section (164 pgs)? > > I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages. > > Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit, > except that Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't. > > Thank you for being here, > > Jim S/Pensacola, FL > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3135. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/2/2006 3:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Diz Titcher" (rtitcher at comcast.net) Bill wrote the book. ______________________________ From: jocis007@aol.com (jocis007 at aol.com) They agreed that Bill's story would go first, and Doctor Bob's story would be the finish. It was done in such masterly form. Don't you agree? ______________________________ From: "Lee Nickerson" (snowlily at megalink.net) My take on it is that Bob was a very low-key guy and focused on Twelfth Step work and trying to keep Bill for franchising the program in the first few years. If Dr. Bob had been the one to get the message out to the world, it would have remained in Akron for a very long time. I can find nothing that indicates that Bill did anything unsavory to get his image the way it ended up. The Big Book was approved by the entire membership at the time, so Dr. Bob must have had a chance to speak up about just where his story was. I actually see Bill as a much larger influence as to the formation of the Fellowship than Dr. Bob. I think Bob's primary role was keeping a lid on Bill grandiosity and serving as Bill's friend and confidante. lee ______________________________ From the moderator, Glenn C. (glennccc@sbcglobal.net) Let's not over analyze and forget the obvious! There are people who can sing beautifully but cannot play a musical instrument. Their musical skills extend to their mouths but not to their fingers, because it seems to involve training a different part of the brain. Dr. Bob was someone who could talk to you, and explain to you orally what you had to do to get sober, better than anybody else in early AA. But if you look at the few things that he wrote, once you put a pen in his hand, he kind of froze up, and what came out was kind of wooden and not very well expressed. There have been many people in AA since then who were wonderful sponsors, and could stand up and give marvelous leads, but were not good writers. We've got a heck of a lot of good people like that. But Bill W. was real writer. I don't know how he managed to write all those hundreds of beautiful letters to people. And if you look at "As Bill Sees It," you can see how, even in the middle of an ordinary little letter that he just tossed off in a few minutes, there would often be buried passages of profound spiritual wisdom. You can't criticize other people for not having that kind of extraordinary skill. And it would have been foolish in the extreme to play silly games and insist on all of the first forty AA's being given exactly 4.1 pages to write in the first 164 pages of the Big Book, no more, no less. But this posed a problem when it came time to write the Big Book. Bill W. certainly couldn't have written Dr. Bob's story for him, that would have been arrogant and rude. So he had to concentrate in the book on the part that he had a right to talk about, about Ebby's visit to him, and how the scales fell from his eyes and he found the path of healing for himself, when Ebby told him what he had learned from the Oxford Group. And then he gave Dr. Bob the place of honor at the head of the story section, but kept the part Dr. Bob had to write fairly small, so Dr. Bob would be able to handle it. It would be great if Dr. Bob had also had the writing skills to explain exactly what he was thinking and feeling when he and Bill W. first met, oh boy would it be great, but he didn't have those skills. Nevertheless, when we put up pictures of the founders, we give Bill W. and Dr. Bob equal honor, with their portraits side by side. That's the important symbolism. Nobody tries to make the portrait of Bill W. bigger than the portrait of Dr. Bob. Let's just be grateful that we had several people in early AA who did have remarkable writing skills, like Bill W. and Richmond Walker and Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and Ed Webster. While also being grateful for the far greater number of people who knew how to be effective sponsors, and how to deal with suffering alcoholics on a one on one basis. We needed ALL of them in order for us to receive God's grace in its fullness. Along with the guy who shows up an hour in advance of every meeting and unlocks the building and makes the coffee, and says hello to you when you walk in, and is GLAD to see you. And you can count on him, and you know he's going to be there. And when you're hurting, he saves your life too, just as much as the others. In a little piece called the Tools of Recovery (http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html) which is often read at meetings in my part of Indiana, the sixth tool is Service, and it says simply, "Service helps our personal program grow. Service is giving in A.A. Service is leading a meeting, making coffee, moving chairs, being a sponsor, or emptying ashtrays. Service is action, and action is the magic word in this program." When I make coffee for a meeting, or help move chairs, or empty ashtrays, I do not regard it as a lower and inferior kind of service work. I do everything on that little list in the Tools of Recovery, and everything else that people ask me to do. All service is of equal honor in the eyes of God. I don't go around giving leads as a conference speaker on a regular basis because there are people in the program far more talented than I am in that area. My own story really isn't very interesting. But I treasure and honor the people we have who DO have good stories, and ARE good at giving leads in front of big conferences. Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe), the Catholic priest from Indiana, found that because the Catholic Church in those days required priests to wear clerical collars at all times, that he couldn't do a good job of making twelve step calls. All alcoholics could see was his clerical collar, and they couldn't identify with him, and they found it very threatening and frightening. He desperately wanted to do something which would be of service to his fellow alcoholics, and finally turned to leading weekend spiritual retreats and then to writing his Golden Books, not because he thought that being a writer was more important or more glamorous, but because it was the only kind of service work that he seemed to be any good at! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3136. . . . . . . . . . . . California Bill From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 2:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In Message 3129, "Significant February dates in A.A. History " http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3129 it says: Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem, NC. Who was William Y. "California Bill" and what is his significance in AA history? Thanks. Chris Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3137. . . . . . . . . . . . Pat McC - Philadelphia longtimer From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 9:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Pat McC. of Audubon, NJ, formerly of Yeadon, Pa. died Feb 1st with 57 years of sobriety. He came in thru the 4021 clubhouse and was going to be one of the 5 longtime speakers on Sunday 3/12/06 3 P.M. when the club will celebrate their 60th anniversary.Another AA who showed us that long term sobriety is possible a day at a time with the help of a Higher Power and following the suggestions of our program. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike G. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3138. . . . . . . . . . . . From We Agnostics..Professor Langley From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As part of my continuing project to share esoteric refrences in the Big Book from Bill W's idiom of the time...(1930's) I'm sending this about the refrence to professor Langley's flying machine Chapter 4, Page 51; We Agnostics. "Professor Langley's airplane sank in the Potomic River"..... From We Agnostics, (P 51 Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous) Bill W. was moved by the story of a man's dreams and the ridicule of the press and the fact that a man could eventually fly. Samuel Pierpont Langley Samuel Pierpont Langley (1834 - 1906) is often used as a contrast to the Wrights. Unlike the two brothers, Langley was highly-educated and had more than ample funding in support of his efforts to develop an airplane. His stature at Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution lent great credibility to his efforts to build an airplane, as did his success with the unmanned aerodromes. In particular, his Aerodrome No. 6 flew 4,200 feet at about 30 mph on November 28, 1896. This unmanned tandem-wing craft employed a lightweight steam engine for propulsion. The wings were set at a distinct dihedral angle so that the craft was dynamically stable, capable of righting itself when disturbed by a sideways breeze. There was no method of steering this craft, nor would it have been easy to add any means to control the direction the craft flew. From the success of No. 6, Langley was able to convince the War Department (a.k.a. Department of Defense) to contribute $50,000 toward the development of a person-carrying machine. The Smithsonian contributed a like sum towards Langley's efforts. Charles Manley developed an extraordinary radial-cylinder internal combustion engine that developed 52 horsepower for the man-carrying Great Aerodrome. Langley felt it would be safest to fly over water, so he spent almost half of his funds constructing a houseboat with a catapult that would be capable of launching his new craft. The Great Aerodrome might have flown if Langley had chosen a more traditional means of launching the craft from the ground. The pilot still would have lacked any means of steering the plane, and so faced dangers aplenty. But it might have at least gotten into the air. Unfortunately, Langley chose to stick with his 'tried-and-true' approach of catapult launches. The plane had to go from a dead stop to the 60 m.p.h. flying speed in only 70 feet. The stress of the catapult launch was far greater than the flimsy wood-and-fabric airplane could stand. The front wing was badly damaged in the first launch of October 7, 1903. A reporter who witnessed the event claimed it flew "like a handful of mortar." Things went even worse during the second launch of December 9, 1903, where the rear wing and tail completely collapsed during launch. Charles Manley nearly drowned before he could be rescued from the wreckage and the ice-covered Potomac river. Needless to say, the Washington critics had a field day. The Brooklyn Eagle quoted Representative Hitchcock as saying, "You tell Langley for me ... that the only thing he ever made fly was Government money." Representative Robinson characterized Langley as "a professor ... wandering in his dreams of flight ... who was given to building ... castles in the air." The War Department, in its final report on the Langley project, concluded "we are still far from the ultimate goal, and it would seem as if years of constant work and study by experts, together with the expenditure of thousands of dollars, would still be necessary before we can hope to produce an apparatus of practical utility on these lines." Eight days after Langley's spectacular failure, a sturdy, well-designed craft, costing about $1000, struggled into the air in Kitty Hawk, defining for all time the moment when humankind mastered the skies. In spite of 18 years of well-funded and concerted effort by Langley to achieve immortality, his singular contribution to the invention of the airplane was the pair of 30-lb aerodromes that flew in 1914.. He died in 1906 after a series of strokes, a broken and disappointed man. More>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (photo) A very short history of the airplane. Professor Langley was a respected astronomer. He invented the bolometer, an instrument that measures small amounts of microwave or infared radiation by detecting changes in electrical resistance on a thin heat sensitive metal conductor. (This will be on the test) His name lives on in a unit of energy flux. At the end of the 19th Century he was head of the Smithsonian Institute, which in those days was a serious scientific organization. He started to experiment with model airplanes. These experiments culminated in a couple of Steam Models that earned him a permanent place in pre Wright Brothers aviation. These successes lead to his being asked by the Department of War to construct a man carrying air craft. It didn't fly. Twice the Aerodrome, as he called it, was catapulted off the roof of a house boat and twice it fell into the Potomac river "Like a handful of wet mortar." Soon after he died, some say broken by the ridicule with which the press treated the event. And the airplane languished in the Smithsonian. In the meantime the Wright Brothers flew, and patented, their airplane. They were quite aggressive about pursuing what they considered violations of this patent, and set American aviation back by years. Glen Curtiss was one of the individuals who wanted to avoid paying the Wright's considerable royalties and he embarked on a series of lawsuits that was to drag on for years. In about 1914, in an effort to show that the Wright Brothers didn't make the first airplane capable of flight he approached the Smithsonian with an offer to see if he could make the remains of the Aerodrome fly. The Smithsonian who stood to recover from shame and ridicule agreed to this. But the Aerodrome was fundamentally unsound, so Curtiss took it upon himself to make many modifications. He eventually achieved limited flight. Among the changes were, replacing the motor and the two primitive propellers mounted behind the forward wing with a tractor prop powered by a more modern engine. He also gave up on catapulting it off a houseboat and fitted it with floats. Orville Wright was particularly insistant that Langley had the center of pressure in the wrong places and that Curtiss applied the Wright Bros discoveries to rerig the wing bracing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (photo) THIS PICTURE SHOWS AN EARLY CURTISS INCARNATION http://www.rense.com/general12/cig.htm Gene from Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3139. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill''s debt from stock market collapse From: gbaa487 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 11:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On page 4 of Bill's story he tells us of the collapse of the market. My understanding is that it put him in about $650,000 (today's value) in debt. How and when did he get out of that debt? Thanks......this is the best AA info site. george,nyc IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3140. . . . . . . . . . . . First lesbian or gay AA member? From: nancy miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/3/2006 8:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who was the first lesbian or gay man in the program? I heard this women set up an organization that studies alcoholism. Who was she ??? Nancy M Thanks ________________________________ (This is with respect to the discussion over whether Florence R. of Westfield N.J. or Jane S. in Akron was the first woman to get sober in AA.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3141. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 100 Hundred Men and Women? From: merton m. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2006 1:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Art, I enjoyed this. The only techno is that Florence lived in Westfield NJ rather than NY. Only people like us care about such details. When I was archives chair for N. Jersey 15 years ago we photographed the beautiful home as well as extensive photos of 9-11 Hill St and 17-19 William St. in Newark, Hanks 1936 home at 575 Wyndum (sp?) in Teneck where Lois diary said the Jersey drunks met at times (carried into LR I believe), Hank and Kathleen's much larger home at 344 N. Fullerton in Montclair where they moved in 1937 and where Bill and Lois stayed for a few months after leaving the Heights. (along with Jim B.). All these photos still hang on huge displays in the intergroup office and are carried around the country with the traveling committee. All the Best, -merton ArtSheehan wrote: The "and women" part turned out to be Florence R of NY (as Merton noted) whose story is "A Feminine Victory" (Marty M didn't arrive until after the manuscript had been distributed). Florence R, was the first woman in AA and was sober around a year when she wrote her story. She later moved to Washington DC to join up with Fitz M (whose story is "Our Southern Friend") to help start AA there. Sadly, Florence returned to drinking (Fitz M was called to the morgue to identify her). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3142. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2006 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Diz and Art have presented answers to the question referred to in the subject line of this email. They appear to me at least to be addressing two separate but related questions. Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who was the first woman working the program of what became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's sobriety?" While some of my contemporary colleagues think you are still a bit wet behind the ears at one year, it was an awful long time for our Old Timers, whose sobriety was measured in months. That is the question; what is the answer? Tommy H in Baton Rouge . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3143. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2006 3:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII >Hi Art, In GSO Archives the early members were given 1 page questioneers to fill out which included self reported sobriety date, occupation, ect. I specifically recall one that Florence presumably submitted. Post 64 on this site (by this sites founder) places Florence's date of entry at March, 1937. This sound accurate but I'm missing my transcript of this. A specific inquiry to NY regarding this questioneer will verify the accuracy or inaccuracy as to the date if GSO responds. It would be easiest to obtain from the microfische. As you know Florence made contact with AA through her non-alcoholic husband who was a friend and buisness associate of Bill's. All the best, -merton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3144. . . . . . . . . . . . San Francisco Bay area history From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2006 10:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am interested in finding out about the history of Bay-area 12-Step culture during the late 1970s. I am curious about the growth of AA and other organizations in San Francisco and Oakland, but also in surrounding counties, especially Napa, Sonoma, and Mendocino. This part of the country has a reputation for "crunchy" and New Age-y recovery, but I'm not sure what that reputation is based on. I'd be grateful for any sources folks can direct me to. Thanks in advance. Trysh Travis ttravis@wst.ufl.edu (ttravis at wst.ufl.edu) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3145. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First lesbian or gay AA member? From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2006 8:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Nancy - I think you must be referring to Marty Mann (see below), who founded the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence (NCADD) when she had 5 years' sobriety. She was not the first woman to come to AA, but she was the first to achieve long-term sobriety. She arrived in AA in April 1939. Also, she was lesbian. However, Dave (co-author of our biography of her) and I never looked into whether she was the first LGBT. I think there may have been one or two gay men before her, but I'd be surprised if there were another lesbian. Maybe this posting will produce historical information for all of us. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3146. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First lesbian or gay AA member? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2006 12:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Nancy Source abbreviations: (12and12)Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, (AACOA)AA Comes of Age, (BW-FH) Bill W by Francis Hartigan, (DBGO) Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers, (MMM) Mrs Marty Mann by Sally and David Brown, (PIO)Pass It On. The first homosexual AA member likely entered the Fellowship in 1937 ("year two" on the "AA calendar") in Akron, OH. It's discussed in the 12and12 Tradition 3 essay but you'd be hard pressed to discover it. Its specifics are obscured. The 12and12 Tradition 3 essay states: "A newcomer appeared at one of these groups, knocked on the door and asked to be let in. He talked frankly with that group's oldest member. He soon proved that his was a desperate case, and that above all he wanted to get well. "But," he asked, "will you let me join your group? Since I am the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism, you may not want me among you. Or will you?" "One of these groups" referred to Akron #1 in Ohio and the "oldest member" was Dr Bob. The "addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism" had nothing at all to do with drugs. Bill W later speaking at an open meeting of the 1968 General Service Conference described the prospect's "addiction" as "sex deviate." The member was likely homosexual. The language used by Bill to describe him was the language of the time in the latter 1960s. Guidance on what to do on the matter came from Dr Bob asking, "What would the Master do?" The prospect was admitted (DBGO 240-241, also the pamphlet "The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous" pg 30). The member is then described in the 12and12 Tradition 3 essay as: "Overjoyed, the newcomer plunged into Twelfth Step work. Tirelessly he laid AA's message before scores of people. Since this was a very early group, those scores have since multiplied themselves into thousands. Never did he trouble anyone with his other difficulty. AA had taken its first step in the formation of Tradition Three." I do not know who this member was or whether he had his story in the 1st edition Big Book. Oddly though, this Akron, OH member's circumstances are often erroneously intermingled with an incident that occurred in New York 8 years later in 1945. The NY incident involved a prominent, early homosexual member, Barry L, and an unknown homosexual member who created quite a stir upon arrival. Barry L (author of the book "Living Sober" discussed later below) was likely the first male homosexual member of the Fellowship in New York. The book "Pass It On" describes his calling Bill W from the 41st St clubhouse in NYC to tell Bill of the arrival of "a black man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women's clothing and makeup." The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." When asked what to do about it, Bill W posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered "yes" Bill replied "well I think that's all we can ask" (BW-FH 8, PIO 317-318). "Pass It On" goes on to state that "although he soon disappeared (repeat "soon disappeared" for emphasis) the prospect's presence created a precedent for the 3rd Tradition." Anecdotal accounts erroneously say that the black man, in women's clothing, went on to become one of the best 12th Steppers in NY. Prior postings to AAHL even went so far as giving him the name "Veronica" and claiming his drug was heroin. It's a myth - again as stated in "Pass It On" "he soon disappeared." Fragments of the 1945 story in New York, which mentions "dope fiend" are intermingled with the 12and12 Tradition 3 essay, which occurred in Ohio, and mentions "an addiction" and "plunged into 12th Step work." It has created one of the most persistent myths in AA. Marty M was the first lesbian member of AA. On April 11, 1939, Marty, at age 35, attended her first meeting at Bill W's home at 182 Clinton St. For the prior 15 months, she was a charity patient at Bellevue Hospital in NYC and the Blythewood Sanitarium in Greenwich, CT (under the care of Dr Harry Tiebout). Dr Tiebout gave her a manuscript of the Big Book and arranged for Marty to go to the meeting. Upon her return to Blythewood, she told fellow patient, Grenville (Grennie) C "we are not alone." Marty later established an AA Group at the Sanitarium. (BW-FH 8, 125-126, AACOA 3, 18-19, PIO 210-213, MMM 111-123) Sally and David Brown's excellent biography "Mrs Marty Mann" provides substantial details on Marty and her relationship with Priscilla P (who along with Marty and others started the AA Grapevine in June 1944). Their book also notes that Marty briefly returned to drinking somewhere in between the latter 1950s to early 1960s. It was a well kept secret in NY and in the NCA. Nancy O, in her biographies of Big Book story authors, wrote that in order to protect the work she was doing during a period of heavy anti-gay bias, Marty never revealed her lesbianism except to Bill (her sponsor) and other close friends. Her long-time lesbian partner, Priscilla P, was once a glamorous art director at Vogue Magazine and was the 5th woman Marty brought into AA. Barry L's involvement in the book "Living Sober" (noted earlier above) is an interesting story. Published in 1975, the book had a bit of a tortuous history. According to Bob P's unpublished manuscript of AA history from 1955 to 1985, around 1968, the Board discussed the need for a pamphlet for sober old-timers, and the need to point out "traps" or "danger signals." Out of this grew a proposal for literature to be developed around the topic, "How We Stay Sober." In 1969 it was assigned to a professional writer. After nearly 2 years of work, the draft was rejected. The sense that it needed such drastic revision led to it being started from scratch by Barry L, a seasoned, skillful freelance writer and consultant for GSO. Barry negotiated a flat fee for the project. After 4 1/2 years he came up with a simple and practical manual on how to enjoy a happy, productive life without drinking. "Living Sober" proved to be quite popular and after it sold nearly a million copies, Barry felt he should have been compensated more generously and receive some sort of royalty. AAWS and the General Service Board declined. Barry threatened legal action, but never followed through. As an item of further interest, not long ago the mark-up manuscript of the editorial changes for the 1st Ed Big Book was auctioned off at over a million and a half dollars. The manuscript was given to Barry L as a gift by Lois W. Cheers Arthur S -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nancy miller Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:15 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Cc: nancy miller Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First lesbian or gay AA member? Who was the first lesbian or gay man in the program? I heard this women set up an organization that studies alcoholism. Who was she ??? Nancy M Thanks ________________________________ (This is with respect to the discussion over whether Florence R. of Westfield N.J. or Jane S. in Akron was the first woman to get sober in AA.) Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3147. . . . . . . . . . . . Early gay member Barry L. ("Living Sober" author) From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2006 7:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't know he was the very "the first" gay member but I do know this man claims to be the member who was asked to champion "Gay Meetings" by Bill Wilson... his name was Barry L. and also the author of Living Sober. You can hear his talk online at www.xa-speakers.org> _________________________ Moderator's note: See Message 3146 from Arthur Sheehan for more details about Barry L.'s life and contributions to AA: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3146 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3148. . . . . . . . . . . . Sylvia K. From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/9/2006 4:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is it true that Sylvia Kaufmann (Keys to the Kingdom) was urged to return to Chicago and start AA there with Earl Treat after her visit to Akron and her professed desire to stay with the founders? According to the story I was told, Sylvia was gorgeous, rich, divorced, and adoring and the AA ladies of Akron felt it would be far better for all if she did her good deeds elsewhere. ______________________________ Moderator: see Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age p. 22, where a different story is told, and for a photo of Earl Treat, see the second photo on http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3149. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/7/2006 4:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Mel Barger" (melb at accesstoledo.com) Hi All, I went to my first meeting early in October, 1948, in California and was given a loan copy of the Big Book right then. The woman who loaned it to me urged me to read the personal stories first and then go back to the first part. Bill D.'s story (AA #3) wasn't in the first edition, and appeared in the second edition only because Bill W. recorded him out in Akron and pretty much put together his story. I gathered that Bill D. wasn't all that excited about the book idea in the beginning, but Bill W. realized that Bill D.'s role was important and should be in the book. I think it made sense to have Dr. Bob's story lead the personal story section. But I've always believed that Bill's Story is the best and strongest of all and deserves to lead off the entire book. Mel Barger ____________________________________ From: James Flynn (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) The trend of worshiping the first part of the Big Book (the first 164 pages) might have started happening around the same time that Bill W. had to remove stories from the back of the book because the "recovered' alkie who was the subject of the story relapsed. Jim F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3150. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/4/2006 10:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Shakey - this is a long reply The information you seek is qualified in the source book as "according to Clarence" or "Clarence believed." Clarence did much for which he should be complimented, but he also had another side that is not very complementary. I'd suggest that Clarence S was to Bill W what Al Gore is to George Bush today. No matter what the subject, it will be interpreted in a sinister manner. This is not to say that anyone is lying, rather it is what bias and antagonism produce. The unpublished manuscript of Bob P contains the excerpts below which are revealing. They are, for the most part independently, confirmed by other authors in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" and "Pass It On." Chapter 1 - When AA "Came of AGE" All was not harmony within the Fellowship, however, which accounted for a smaller-than-expected attendance at the St. Louis Convention. AA had grown up in two places simultaneously - Akron and New York, each with its own co-founder. So it is not surprising that there was a feeling of separateness - some would say a schism - between the Akron/Cleveland axis and the New York axis. The Akronites had clung longer to the Oxford Groups and were more conservative generally. Bill, the visionary, on the other hand pushed ahead with the writing and publishing of the Big Book, the establishing of a "Headquarters" office and, in the late 1940s, a plan for a General Service Conference. Dissent against this idea was led by Clarence S of Cleveland. With the help of Henrietta Seiberling (who now lived in New York), an "Orthodox Group" was formed to mobilize opposition to the Conference plan among AA groups nationwide. They took pride in the fact they would have nothing to do with Bill W, the "Headquarters" office or any form of organization of AA. Their most vigorous efforts took place after the first trial conference was held in 1951. The groups and members with the "Orthodox Group" view chose, not surprisingly, to boycott the St. Louis gathering where the Conference idea was to be ratified. Chapter 2 - The General service Board ... in 1946, Bill submitted to the trustees a "Code of Traditions for General Headquarters," and followed it up with a barrage of memoranda supporting its various points. These included ideas for fiscal policies, and specifically the creation of a sound reserve fund; the place of The AA Grapevine in the structure; and staff representation at the Board and committee meetings, with a voice in policy decisions. A 1947 memo added the most controversial proposal of all, that of having a General Service Conference to provide a linkage between the groups and the trustees as well as the headquarters office; and to bring the trustees into regular contact and direct relationship with the society. The Board's reaction was at first defensive and then outright negative to Bill's suggestions. Most of the trustees wanted to keep the status quo. They were confident of their ability to handle whatever situation might arise and saw no need to change. Bill, spurred into greater urgency by Dr Bob's illness and feeling personal frustration, pressed harder, resulting in hot and bitter debates. As Nell recounts, "Bill felt they wanted him to be only a spiritual symbol, confined to a kind of ivory tower where he couldn't stir things up." The trustees resented Bill's over-aggressiveness. Bill himself confesses, "Typically alcoholic, I turned passive resistance into solid opposition. A serious rift developed between me and the alcoholic members of the Board, and the situation became worse and worse. They resented my sledgehammer tactics. As the tempest increased, so did my blistering memorandums. One of them was an amazing composition which finished with this astonishing sentence: "When I was in law school, the largest book I studied was one on trusts. I must say, gentlemen, that it was mostly a long and melancholy account of the malfeasances and misfeasances of boards of trustees.' I had written this to the best friends I had in the world, people who had devoted themselves to AA and to me without stint. Obviously I was on a dry bender of the worst possible sort. This sizzling memorandum nearly blew the Foundation apart." The nonalcoholic trustees were "dumbfounded," and the old-timer alcoholic trustees hardened their opposition to the Conference plan. Four of the trustees even submitted letters of resignation; they were: LeRoy Chipman, Leonard Harrison, Bernard Smith and Horace C. Bill wrote each of them a conciliatory letter of apology, and the resignations were either withdrawn or simply not accepted at the next Board meeting. In fact, the only support on the Board for the Conference was from Bernard Smith. However, as the dispute wore on into 1950, Chairman Leonard Harrison - even though he did not see the necessity for a Conference - appointed a trustees' committee to study the matter with Bernard Smith as Chairman! Bill characterized this as "a most magnanimous and generous act on Leonard's part. Bern Smith had "a remarkable faculty for persuasion and negotiation." It took him only two meetings to convince the committee to "give the Conference a try." The full Board voted to go along. (See Chapter 11 for a fuller history of the Conference.) Chapter 3 - Groups in the US: How They Began and How They Grew East Central Region - Akron, Cleveland and Ohio The members of the new Cleveland group were uncertain what to call themselves and discussed several suggested names. "None of them seemed fitting," remembered Abby C, "so we began to refer to ourselves "as Alcoholics Anonymous" after the title of the Big Book. (On this tenuous fact Clarence S based a lifelong claim that he was, in reality, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He became perhaps the most controversial character in AA. He turned against Bill and aroused the Cleveland contingent to accuse Bill and Dr Bob of "getting rich" off the Big Book and the generosity of Mr. Rockefeller - which they had to disprove with a certified audit of their financial affairs. Clarence tried to organize a nationwide revolt against the Conference idea and threatened, unsuccessfully, to secede. He criticized Bill and the "New York office" vitriolically at every opportunity. Bill steadfastly refused to hold a grudge against him and in their correspondence "used soft words to turn away wrath." Much later, when they met at the International Convention in Toronto, they actually spent several hours together, reminiscing. However, Clarence, a popular speaker on the Steps and the recovery program, continued to raise hackles wherever he appeared by calling press conferences in which he was photographed full face with his full name, holding the Big Book which he claimed he wrote, and identifying himself as the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He asserted he was not bound by AA's Traditions because they were written later - and written by Bill. Clarence S moved to Florida in retirement, where he remained extremely active until his death in 1984. Chapter 9 - General Service Office - The AA Archives Bill had some underlying reasons for his intense interest in archival matters, beyond that expressed in AA Comes of Age namely, so that "the basic facts of AA's growth and development never can become distorted." By 1955, the facts were already being distorted by Clarence S and other oldtimers who were attempting to undermine Bill's place in AA's history. So Bill wanted the records available. Also Bill was visionary; he saw the sweep and scope of the Fellowship he had helped found and foresaw its significance as a social movement to be studied by future historians. Chapter 10 - The AA Grapevine He [Bill W] obviously loved the Grapevine. He gave it his full personal support from its very beginning, and whenever he spoke of it or wrote about it, it was with great enthusiasm and affection. And he devoted his time and effort unstintingly to helping it. For example, in 1946, he wrote a six-page single-space typewritten document in the form of a letter to attorney Royal Shepard about the corporate structure of the Grapevine and the concepts behind it. ... There were several reasons for this special interest. Bill perceived early that this was a means for him to communicate directly with the Fellowship without going through the Board of Trustees - especially when he was at odds with them on a given issue. And he used the Grapevine for this purpose frequently and effectively. The Traditions were born and grew to their present form in a series of articles in the latter 1940s, beginning with a 1946 piece entitled "Twelve Points to Assure Our Future." In 1950, a time when a majority of the Trustees seemed opposed to the idea, Bill and Dr Bob wrote in the Grapevine suggesting that the AA membership as a whole should take over, through a General Service Conference ... Chapter 11 - The General Service Conferences Never did the co-founder and de facto leader of a social movement ever try so early and so fiercely to relinquish his power and authority as did Bill W. Incredibly, only twelve years after the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous, nine years after the formation of the Alcoholic Foundation and eight years after the Big Book was published, Bill wrote the first of several controversial and even explosive memos proposing a General Service Conference. The story of his battle with the trustees over the issue for the next three years is related in Chapter 2 on the General Service Board. But finally in 1950, the trustees voted reluctantly to "give the Conference a try." Chapter 12 - The Big Book and Other AA Literature Bill said that more than 100 titles were considered for the book. The title that appeared on the Multilithed copies was "Alcoholics Anonymous." The first documented use of the name is in a letter from Bill to Willard Richardson dated July 15, 1938, in which he uses it to refer to the movement. Among the other possible titles considered for the book were: "One Hundred Men," "The Empty Glass," "The Dry Way," "The Dry Life," and "The Way Out." The choices quickly boiled down to "The Way Out," favored by most in Akron, and "Alcoholics Anonymous," favored by most in New York. Bill asked Fitz M, who lived near Washington, DC, to check both titles through the library of congress. Fitz wired back to the effect that the Library of Congress had 25 books entitled "The Way Out," 12 entitled "The Way," and none called "Alcoholics Anonymous." That settled the matter. The title of the book quickly became the name of the Fellowship as well. Clarence S later called himself the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, basing his claim on his being the first to use the name for a group. Which he probably was. But the fact is, the book Alcoholics Anonymous was already off the press, and the name had been used a year earlier to refer to the Fellowship as a whole. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shakey1aa@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:43 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Cc: hvyver@kvalley.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles My sponsor told me about AA having a "statement of principles" in 1950. He tells me they originally came out in 1948 but that no proof is obtainable from New York. Does anyone know about this? The statement of principles of 1948 is in Appendix G in Mitch K's book "How it Worked." Does anyone know why these were replaced by the 1950 statement of principles. Do they give General Service more power? Why does Royal S., the attorney who incorporated the Grapevine, on pg 199 say the trustees suppressed the statement of 1948? t/y Shakey Mike G. Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3151. . . . . . . . . . . . God as we understand Him From: Archie Bunkers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2006 12:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM." Is William James the source of the Big Book phrase "God as we understand him"?? Archie B. ________________________________ From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana) The passage which Archie quotes is from one of the four pamphlets we possess which were written by the early AA people in Akron. They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," "Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous," "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous. In the passage in question, which says "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM," it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron believed, not that William James wrote that line, but instead were agreeing that adding "as we understand Him" to the references to God in the twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief that people of different personality types needed different types of spirituality and different kinds of conceptions of God. "God as we understand Him" was not a quote from James however, as they give it in this pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what James was saying in the long quotation which they give from him, where James says "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine." The early Akron AA people were clearly saying in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists, could all join together in following the twelve steps and could understand why following these spiritual guides to action could lead us to the higher spiritual life. Here is that particular section of the pamphlet, which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that section, so the group can read in context what the early Akron AA people believed: _____________________________________ "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous" Part IV BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the nebulous side, we are offered more concrete guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality. It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even though it seems so at first. Let's examine what some of the fine minds of history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators -- have to say about religion. Note that none of them, with the exception of St. James, is a professional religionist. "Religion is the worship of higher powers from a sense of need." --Allan Menzies. "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine." -- William James. "Religion is the recognition of all our duties as divine commands."--Immanual Kant. "Religion is that part of human experience in which man feels himself in relation with powers of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba. "Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."--The General Epistle of James, 1:27. One cannot but be impressed with the similarity of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps. The Menzies definition is nothing more than a condensed version of the first three steps wherein we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our wills and lives over to that Power. William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM. Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven, wherein we are admonished to give our lives a thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and restitutions are without question divine commands. James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step, where we make use of our newly found powers. And all we need to do in the St. James passage is to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we were very definitely fatherless and widows. The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly. There is not an ethical religion in the world today that does not teach to a great extent the principles of Love, Charity and Good Will. The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one of our finest examples of helping one another. When a member of the family gets into trouble of any kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally around with advice, admonition, and even financial assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason there are not more Jewish members of AA. The family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic problem. Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler, and conduct themselves with personal dignity. Consider the eight-part program laid down in Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy, as exemplified by these eight points, could be literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal love and welfare of others rather than considerations of self are basic to Buddhism. The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit. Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility and serenity. St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order." We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3152. . . . . . . . . . . . Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/8/2006 9:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was started February 1946 by Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being under 30 years of age they thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with the younger alcoholic. They started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA under 35 years of age. The group had several female members. They felt they could deal with members who were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as older members. They had parties, picnic's and other social events as well as the AA meetings. Several years ago,at a workshop that had several original group members, I remember Pat C saying that she and several other members of the group got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st Young Peoples convention.Most of those that attended the workshop had a love of life and of each other and were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety. The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, February 14th at 7 P.M. at 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania. Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups before that date. I think there may have been another group in the Los Angeles area. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike G. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3153. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2006 5:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 02:47 2/7/2006 , mertonmm3 wrote: > >Hi Art, > >In GSO Archives the early members were given 1 page questioneers to >fill out which included self reported sobriety date, occupation, ect. >I specifically recall one that Florence presumably submitted. Post 64 >on this site (by this sites founder) places Florence's date of entry >at March, 1937. This sound accurate but I'm missing my transcript of >this. A specific inquiry to NY regarding this questioneer will verify >the accuracy or inaccuracy as to the date if GSO responds. It would be >easiest to obtain from the microfische. > >As you know Florence made contact with AA through her non-alcoholic >husband who was a friend and buisness associate of Bill's. > >All the best, >-merton The West Baltimore Group's biographies of the authors of stories in the original manuscript and first three editions, comprised by Nancy O, I believe, has March 1937 as Florence R's dos, confirming the above. However, it is not a primary source and confirmation via the questionnaire on file at GSO would certainly be a better source. I come up against the "God said it. I believe it. That settles it," argument frequently. It is along the lines of, "My sponsor conducts Big Book studies all over the country. He has brought the Big Book alive for hundreds of people making their lives better. How can you say he is wrong?" This is an argument from authority, and I can see its fallacies but we deal with so much subjective and emotional reasoning, facts from primary sources are often ridiculed and rejected. How does one deal with this? Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3154. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2006 7:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide me with an electronic copy. Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot, having "done" my first 4 and 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3 months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the 1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct and personal guidance from Wesley Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out. Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt and pepper shaker, so as I would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental) hopelessness of the disease. Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold Disease!!!! Kind Regards, John R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3155. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First lesbian or gay AA member? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/11/2006 9:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All, I interviewed Barry L. by telephone and obtained the story about the homosexual black man who had contacted Barry about coming into AA. This is how it became included in "Pass It On." I think this happened in 1945. I don't recall any mention of how the man fared after being introduced to the fellowship. I had met Barry at G.S.O. in New York and considered him a good friend. We never discussed his being gay, but I do recall expressing condolences when his partner died. I also attended Marty Mann's memorial services at St. Bartholomew's Episcopal Church in New York City with Barry and a lesbian member who knew Marty. The service was conducted by the minister of the church and Yvelin G., who was an ordained Episcopal minister along with being Marty's close associate for many years at the National Council on Alcoholism. This service was about two months after Marty's passing. I had interviewed Marty earlier that year at her home in Easton, CT, where she also introduced me to her longtime partner, Priscilla Peck. Priscilla was then suffering from Alzheimer's but Marty was still taking care of her, and I had the feeling that they were a very devoted couple. I learned more about their relationship in the Browns' book and was also happy to hear that Priscilla was well taken care of after Marty died. It appeared to me that Lois W.'s best friends in the fellowship were Barry and Nell Wing (though Nell wasn't an alcoholic). Barry accompanied Lois on out-of-town speaking engagements and was otherwise very attentive to her. I believed that Barry was probably in her will, as was Nell, but he predeceased Lois. I was also familiar with Barry's efforts to obtain extra compensation for his work on "Living Sober." Lois reportedly endorsed this effort. I didn't feel he had any grounds for receiving additional pay, as he had taken on the project on a work-for-hire basis with no royalties specified. He used Bill W.'s royalties as a precedent, but I'm sure Bill negotiated the royalty agreement up front when he wrote "The Twelve and Twelve" plus "AA Comes of Age." His Big Book royalties were agreed upon earlier. I think Barry died before this matter was finally settled. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3156. . . . . . . . . . . . Experience, strength, and hope From: Penny . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2006 3:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Where did the phrase share our experience, strength and hope come from? In love and sobriety Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00 Roanoke Virginia Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is greater than the fear of letting go! Never assume some one knows you love them, take the time to tell them. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3157. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/12/2006 9:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree that a reasonable period of dry time should be a factor as opposed to just when someone might have first showed up. Bill and Bob had two unsuccessful Akron, OH prospects (Dr McK and Eddie R) prior to Bill D being dubbed "AA #3." Plus there was the legendary "Lil." Using the 1-year criterion would favor Florence R for primacy and my vote goes to Florence. Jane S (presumed to be from Cleveland) predated Clarence S (the acknowledged Cleveland pioneer) by a year yet she is not recalled in Mitchell K's biography of Clarence S (based on interviews with Clarence). So I just don't know where Jane S fits other than being mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" along with "Lil." Cheers Arthur __________________________________ Message 3142 from: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] First woman was Jane S., not Florence Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who was the first woman working the program of what became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's sobriety?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3158. . . . . . . . . . . . "burning desire" From: hesofine2day . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/6/2006 4:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have an idea that many of the expressions and conventions in AA these days have seeped in from NA and/or treatment centers. Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting? Also where did the expression "do the next right thing" come from? And finally saying "It works if you work it" after the Lord's prayer. ________________________________ From the moderator: Raymond I., who shows up in my book about old time AA in northern Indiana (see http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html) frequently tells newcomers "you must want it with a burning desire." He says he didn't make up this phrase, but that it was something that other people also said back in the old days. "Old time" is relative. Raymond came into the program in 1974, but was trained by the old-time black AA members who came into South Bend AA in the 1940's. He doesn't talk treatment jargon or use the jazzy NA phrases that everybody chants at the end of their meetings. So I think that in the form "you must want it with a burning desire," the words go back to a period before all the psychobabble and high school cheerleading type stuff. The great heyday of the treatment centers funded by insurance money ran from the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's approximately, so anything prior to the mid 1980's is probably not coming from that source. But can anybody trace "you must want it with a burning desire" back before the 1970's? "Modern AA" and "old time AA" are both relative terms, and in the earliest years, 1936 is very different from 1938, 1939 is very different from 1941, and 1946 is very different from 1948 or 1949. The 1960's were very different from the 1950's. AA was going through continuous change and development during that whole period. But it was working effectively and continuing to grow and expand at an enormous rate. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3159. . . . . . . . . . . . Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker From: sbanker914@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/5/2006 7:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Art, I've been a member of AAHistoryLovers for a long time and enjoy the list very much. Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone). It turned out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of the tape very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude. She was more than middle aged when she made the tape and she had been sober a long time. She knew Dr. Shoemaker and I think was a member of his congregation. Most vividly I remember her telling of the years she had lived in a house in Santa Fe which she had filled up with needy women in early recovery. I wish I had copied the tape, but I didn't. I passed it along to another recovering woman. I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude. Susan Banker NYC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3160. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 7:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If no one else can find a hard copy, mine went with my other research materials to the Kirk Collection at Brown University. I trust it could be easily available: even though they have not yet sorted all my materials, the printed one's are indexed as to location (I think). If interested, contact David_Lewis@brown.edu or perhaps better, Tovah-Reis@brown.edu ernie k. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3161. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 8:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I guess that when a second printing is done of How It Worked I'll have o include all of Royal Shepard's letters and all of Henrietta Seiberling's letters relating to both Bill and the Statement of 1948. I prefer using actual documentation from the period in question rather than sanitized and committee reviewed official literature written and published years beyond the actual events. Clarence was merely a part of the Orthodox Group/Movement and not the founding member. The documentation and not the apologists bear that out. --- ArtSheehan wrote: > Hi Shakey - this is a long reply > > The information you seek is qualified in the source > book as "according > to Clarence" or "Clarence believed." Clarence did > much for which he > should be complimented, but he also had another side > that is not very > complementary. I'd suggest that Clarence S was to > Bill W what Al Gore > is to George Bush today. No matter what the subject, > it will be > interpreted in a sinister manner. This is not to say > that anyone is > lying, rather it is what bias and antagonism > produce. > > The unpublished manuscript of Bob P contains the > excerpts below which > are revealing. They are, for the most part > independently, confirmed by > other authors in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" and > "Pass It On." > > Chapter 1 - When AA "Came of AGE" > > All was not harmony within the Fellowship, however, > which accounted > for a smaller-than-expected attendance at the St. > Louis Convention. AA > had grown up in two places simultaneously - Akron > and New York, each > with its own co-founder. So it is not surprising > that there was a > feeling of separateness - some would say a schism - > between the > Akron/Cleveland axis and the New York axis. The > Akronites had clung > longer to the Oxford Groups and were more > conservative generally. > Bill, the visionary, on the other hand pushed ahead > with the writing > and publishing of the Big Book, the establishing of > a "Headquarters" > office and, in the late 1940s, a plan for a General > Service > Conference. > > Dissent against this idea was led by Clarence S of > Cleveland. With the > help of Henrietta Seiberling (who now lived in New > York), an "Orthodox > Group" was formed to mobilize opposition to the > Conference plan among > AA groups nationwide. They took pride in the fact > they would have > nothing to do with Bill W, the "Headquarters" office > or any form of > organization of AA. Their most vigorous efforts took > place after the > first trial conference was held in 1951. The groups > and members with > the "Orthodox Group" view chose, not surprisingly, > to boycott the St. > Louis gathering where the Conference idea was to be > ratified. > > Chapter 2 - The General service Board > > ... in 1946, Bill submitted to the trustees a "Code of > Traditions for > General Headquarters," and followed it up with a > barrage of memoranda > supporting its various points. These included ideas > for fiscal > policies, and specifically the creation of a sound > reserve fund; the > place of The AA Grapevine in the structure; and > staff representation > at the Board and committee meetings, with a voice in > policy decisions. > A 1947 memo added the most controversial proposal of > all, that of > having a General Service Conference to provide a > linkage between the > groups and the trustees as well as the headquarters > office; and to > bring the trustees into regular contact and direct > relationship with > the society. > > The Board's reaction was at first defensive and then > outright negative > to Bill's suggestions. Most of the trustees wanted > to keep the status > quo. They were confident of their ability to handle > whatever situation > might arise and saw no need to change. Bill, spurred > into greater > urgency by Dr Bob's illness and feeling personal > frustration, pressed > harder, resulting in hot and bitter debates. As Nell > recounts, "Bill > felt they wanted him to be only a spiritual symbol, > confined to a kind > of ivory tower where he couldn't stir things up." > The trustees > resented Bill's over-aggressiveness. > > Bill himself confesses, "Typically alcoholic, I > turned passive > resistance into solid opposition. A serious rift > developed between me > and the alcoholic members of the Board, and the > situation became worse > and worse. They resented my sledgehammer tactics. As > the tempest > increased, so did my blistering memorandums. One of > them was an > amazing composition which finished with this > astonishing sentence: > 'When I was in law school, the largest book I > studied was one on > trusts. I must say, gentlemen, that it was mostly a > long and > melancholy account of the malfeasances and > misfeasances of boards of > trustees.' I had written this to the best friends I > had in the world, > people who had devoted themselves to AA and to me > without stint. > Obviously I was on a dry bender of the worst > possible sort. > > This sizzling memorandum nearly blew the Foundation > apart." The > nonalcoholic trustees were "dumbfounded," and the > old-timer alcoholic > trustees hardened their opposition to the Conference > plan. Four of the > trustees even submitted letters of resignation; they > were: LeRoy > Chipman, Leonard Harrison, Bernard Smith and Horace > C. Bill wrote each > of them a conciliatory letter of apology, and the > resignations were > either withdrawn or simply not accepted at the next > Board meeting. > > In fact, the only support on the Board for the > Conference was from > Bernard Smith. However, as the dispute wore on into > 1950, Chairman > Leonard Harrison - even though he did not see the > necessity for a > Conference - appointed a trustees' committee to > study the matter with > Bernard Smith as Chairman! Bill characterized this > as "a most > magnanimous and generous act on Leonard's part. Bern > Smith had "a > remarkable faculty for persuasion and negotiation." > It took him only > two meetings to convince the committee to "give the > Conference a try." > The full Board voted to go along. (See Chapter 11 > for a fuller history > of the Conference.) > > Chapter 3 - Groups in the US: How They Began and How > They Grew > East Central Region - Akron, Cleveland and Ohio > > The members of the new Cleveland group were > uncertain what to call > themselves and discussed several suggested names. > "None of them seemed > fitting," remembered Abby C, "so we began to refer > to ourselves "as > Alcoholics Anonymous" after the title of the Big > Book. > > (On this tenuous fact Clarence S based a lifelong > claim that he was, > in reality, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He > became perhaps the > most controversial character in AA. He turned > against Bill and aroused > the Cleveland contingent to accuse Bill and Dr Bob > of "getting rich" > off the Big Book and the generosity of Mr. > Rockefeller - which they > had to disprove with a certified audit of their > financial affairs. > Clarence tried to organize a nationwide revolt > against the Conference > idea and threatened, unsuccessfully, to secede. He > criticized Bill and > the "New York office" vitriolically at every > opportunity. Bill > steadfastly refused to hold a grudge against him and > in === message truncated === IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3162. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 10:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The book Under The Influence By Dr. James Milam explains in great detail the benifits of vitamin B-complex for newly recovering alcoholics. I have never seen anything written on the subject by Bill W. but it is widely known that he was an advocate of Niacin which is a B-vitamin. Jim F. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, and more on new and used cars. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3163. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 1:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII perhaps these Grapevine articles will yield some answers... Philadelphia seems to have started in Jan 46 - their follow up article indicates hearing from/about several earlier Young People's groups though. San Diego Young Men's group is reported to have begun in Oct 46 -that 1948 article also mentions a Young Women's group also there, but does not date its beginning. Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote: > The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was started February 1946 by > Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being under 30 years of age they > thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with the younger alcoholic. They > started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA under 35 years of age. The > group had several female members. They felt they could deal with members who > were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as older members. They had > parties, picnic's and other social events as well as the AA meetings. > Several years ago,at a workshop that had several original group members, > I remember Pat C saying that she and several other members of the group > got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st Young Peoples convention.Most > of those that attended the workshop had a love of life and of each other and > were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety. > The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, February 14th at 7 P.M. at > 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania. > Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups before that date. I think > there may have been another group in the Los Angeles area. > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike G. > ----------------------------- (c) Grapevine, November 1946 What Do You Think About Youth Group In Philadelphia? From Philadelphia A group of A.A.s has been formed at Philadelphia for men and women, 35 years of age and under. This group was formed in January, 1946, with just six members, only three of whom had been dry the four months required for voting membership. This membership has since been expanded to about thirty, nearly half of whom have been dry over four months. We were under the impression when we began this group that we were trailblazers in the field, but reports from some of our visiting A.A.s have indicated that it has been tried before, although with very little success. We are not seeking pioneer credit in writing this letter, but rather, constructive criticism. We hope to hear from other groups throughout the country, giving us the benefit of your experience with young people and with such organizations as ours if they have been attempted. We were slow in getting started with our group and we are still proceeding with caution since it is apparent that our abilities lie more in the realm of prevention than in cure. Most young people have not been hurt badly enough or often enough, so they think, to feel that they are in any need of what we in A.A. have to offer. It is feared that for this reason we will experience more than a normal number of relapses, and that our progress will of necessity be slow. However, many of our later members have admitted that had it not been for this young group they would not have stuck to AA. So, we are doing some good. Let's hear from other groups. We would like your suggestions, advice, criticism and opinions on what we are trying to do. -- B.D.Mc. -------------------------------- (c) Grapevine, May 1948 Young Men Solve Meeting Problems from San Diego, Calif. In the January issue of The A.A. Grapevine there is a letter from Florence S. of Forest Hills, N.Y., asking for suggestions for the younger ages who need A.A. In San Diego, this problem has been met by the formation of the Young Women's Group (under 35), and the Young Men's Group (under 40). These groups have been very successful and seem to have tapped an unending source of new A.A.s. The young men seemed to have the idea, "Hell, if I was as old as John Doe, I'd quit drinking, too." It was rather disheartening to listen to someone tell of 20 years of hard drinking, and realize that we had five or ten years to go before we could even approximate the same low bottom. These "old goats" gave us the idea we had to hit several cures, try a few types of "goof balls," and have at least two or more trips to psychopathic wards, before we were ready for A.A. It gave us the feeling we couldn't make the Program because we hadn't been knocked around enough. The first accomplishment noted by the Young Men's Group soon became its strongest selling point: It had automatically raised the level for the young man's turning point. The older person's problems are greatly different from ours. There was no education on things alcoholic when they were our age, therefore they had to go down until their hand was forced. We have been fortunate in having the subject discussed in almost each magazine we read these days. Their immediate families are usually better established so far as understanding goes, because they have been married for a much longer period. The average young man is just beginning his family life and it is often harder to get his wife to go along in the new way of life. The young wife is more apt to resent the husband's attendance at closed meetings. The vast majority of our members are combat veterans with some horrible memories in their minds. The older members have the same memories but time does do a lot to erase the strength of such thoughts. Only a few of us have seen prohibition days, but a lot of us have put away a surprising amount of GI alcohol, de-icer fluid (that was what we distilled in the Air Corps, and it wasn't too bad then), saki, and other drinks that are native to Hawaii, China, the Philippines and other Pacific Islands. The younger man has an inherent cockiness that gives him a bit of trouble once in a while. There are quite a few problems that confront the young man of today; problems that the "old goats" must have had but have now forgotten. These problems and many others, we believe, can best be solved by a Young Men's Group. The first meeting of the Young Men's Group was held October 31, 1946, with six young men and 20 of the older men in attendance. The second meeting saw 15 young fellows and 23 "old goats" attending. The "old goats" stayed with us for three months, by which time we had such a large attendance it was necessary to form a new meeting. Left on our own, we changed to roundtable type meetings and outlawed any applause for the speakers. The newer men soon found it was quite easy to speak since it was no longer necessary to stand in front of an audience. Also, some of the quieter men found it easy to question the speaker since it wasn't necessary to address the chair. Questioning and general discussions led to deeper explanations, better understanding and, generally speaking, better working of the A.A. Program. The younger fellows strike right at the heart of any problem placed before them, and Heaven help the person who isn't serious when he offers a problem or question for discussion and possible solution. We let our hair down in no uncertain manner with no holds barred. There are times when we have asked for help from the older members because of their greater experience in handling some particular problem. On the whole, our group has been a great success. Some of the boys have naturally dropped by the wayside, but most of these have re-enlisted in A.A. and are now doing a splendid job. We have had quite a few drop out in favor of meetings nearer their homes, but this is a natural separation and we feel that our group has played a huge part in selling them on this new way of life. The temporary win and lose columns of A.A. will show our group with an exceptionally high percentage in the win section. For almost 17 months, our active member list has averaged about 50 men and the average meeting will find around 30 members attending. Holidays have not affected our attendance. Rather, it has been found that the men are glad that their meeting will be held on the eve of a big holiday. The third Thursday of each month we open our meeting to the oldtimers and they are very welcome guests. They do not speak unless the leader asks for any word they may have, or unless one feels he may have a message of special benefit for the group. All business discussion of any sort, clubs, parties or what have you, must be left until the A.A. meeting has closed for the evening. The only ironclad rule that is never excepted: NO WOMEN. We "charter members" are very proud of our group and its work, and certainly hope it will continue to grow long after we have passed on into the category of "old goats." -- W.B.A. -------------------------------- (c) Grapevine, July 1950 Bridging the Age Gap TODAY, more than ever, people are becoming aware and taking greater concern with the seriousness of our major public health problems. Alcoholism, our fourth largest Public Health Problem, has more increasingly been brought before the public mind. Many of the taboos and myths formerly attached to alcoholism are gradually being supplanted with realistic thinking and serious attempts toward prevention and the arresting of alcoholism in its earlier stages. One of the most important myths that has been shattered is that young people, who are still in their twenties and thirties cannot be suffering from this disease. The stories of numerous alcoholics, now members of Alcoholics Anonymous, has proven that in a large number of cases symptoms of this disease showed quite early in the period of active drinking. The pattern of "Blackouts," "Excusing a drink," "Becoming anti-social" and having "Morning drinks" had become strongly entrenched while the alcoholic was still a college student or in that age bracket. More, however, started to have difficulties such as "Solitary Drinking" and "Benders" quite early in their business careers and resulted in the loss of jobs, family, finances and other assets. Alcoholics Anonymous has taken a realistic look at the problem of alcoholism in relation to young people. In the last three or four years, groups whose specific aim is to reach the younger alcoholic have mushroomed throughout the country. In New York City alone, the Young Peoples Group better known as the "Thirty-Five and Under Group" has grown from a mere handful in 1947 to its present membership of some 75 to 100 alcoholics ranging in age from the twenties through 35. This group augments the older and more established groups and encourages its members to attend the meetings of older-age groups, so as to foster a more rounded and stabilized type of thinking about alcoholism and the therapy of AA. Every member of Alcoholics Anonymous learns, after attendance of the first few group meetings, that the Twelfth Suggested Step is a most important one in the prolonging of his or her sobriety. It is not easy for a young person in his early twenties or thirties to be of assistance to the sick alcoholic who has been drinking 20 or 30 years and many times leads to dangerous comparisons by the younger person. How much more useful this younger member can be when using his or her efforts in 'twelfth-stepping' a person of a comparative age level. Members of this age group are facing the many sided problems of living at relatively the same time and it is encouraging to know that other young people are hurdling similar difficulties with success. Most important is the comfortable feeling which comes of being able to discuss problems such as Marriage, resumption of studies, the inherent tendencies of alcoholism, its prognosis in relation to certain family situations and other factors which might otherwise endanger sobriety. It is important because of the feeling of mutuality and the lack of any taint of "Preaching," "Parental- Counseling," or "Scholastic Pedanticism." -- J.B., Brooklyn, N.Y. -------------------------------- (c) Grapevine, June 1958 YOUTH GROUP DISBANDS THE YOUNG PEOPLE'S GROUP of Boston, after a great deal of deliberation, has decided to disband. Ten years ago when the group was formed, there was a definite need for a Young People's Group. Today, young people are well represented in most groups. We feel that there is no need for a specialized group. The group is happy to report that most of its original members are active in other groups. It is encouraging to know that young people can enjoy happy productive sobriety such as these original members are experiencing. Roy L., Winthrop, Mass. -------------------------------- (c) Grapevine, September 1961 A Report on YOUTH GROUPS I ATTENDED the Fourth International Conference of Young People in AA in Milwaukee this year, and interviewed everybody present I could pin down. About 250 AAs, Al-Anon members and guests attended the three-day meeting in Milwaukee. AAs and Al-Anons of all ages from the Milwaukee-Chicago area mingled at the meetings with young AAs from as far West as Vancouver, British Columbia, and San Francisco, California; from as far East as New York. Three Australian members, in their thirties, sent their greetings and talks on tape. How young are these AAs, really? Among forty AAs who participated as speakers or on the host planning committee the average age is thirty four -- ranging from twenty-two to fifty-two. The average length of continuous sobriety is four years and nine months. When they first came to AA, two of these forty AAs were in their teens; twenty-two were in their twenties and fourteen in their thirties. Speaker after speaker told of dozens of arrests in their teen years. One girl had an eight-year prison record behind her when she sobered up eight years ago, aged thirty-four. When one thirty-one-year-old, sober eight years, said from the platform, "I had my seventeenth conviction on my seventeenth birthday," no one in the audience seemed particularly impressed. Many had started drinking at twelve, thirteen and fourteen. One said, "I was an alcoholic at thirteen, on skid row at fifteen." Another declared, "I know I was an alky at sixteen." One girl said, "I was on the streets at seventeen, and knew then I was an alcoholic." Commitment to mental hospitals in their early twenties seemed commonplace among these AAs. There were enough skid row alumni to form a group of their own. Another could have been made up among the former reformatory students. Warden John C. Burke of Wisconsin State Prison, Waupun, greeted a number of his former charges at the conference, including the chairman of the host planning committee, who introduced the Warden, with a straight face, as "my former landlord." The prison official told one of the sessions that probably eighty per cent of the young convicts in his institution have a drinking problem. Several speakers told of lying about their ages to get into armed services: "because in uniform I would have no trouble buying drinks." There were frequent stories of broken youthful marriages: "I thought it would settle me down." So it wasn't surprising to hear speakers say -- in private conversations -- they felt puzzled upon first coming to AA to hear older members say, "You're too young to be an alcoholic." Several reported being advised to "go out and do some more drinking. You're not old enough for AA." As one speaker put it: "I was leaving one of my first meetings when I overheard an older member remark, 'I've spilled more booze on my vest than that young punk has drunk.' Probably he had," continued the thirty-one-year-old good-humoredly, "but it was the alcohol I had drunk, not the liquor he had spilled, which made my life unmanageable." A twenty-eight-year-old, in AA three years now, demonstrated the seriousness of his alcoholism this way: "My drunken escapades made the papers so often that my first wife began to speak of it as my 'column.' Then they began not printing it, because my booze troubles just weren't news in our town any more." He laughed when he recalled the "deep freeze" older members gave him his first year. He recalled one older man who had said, "Never had the DTs? Sonny, go drink another ten years. You're no alky." The youngster said seriously: "Once the older fellows started laughing when I told them about a marriage problem I had. So, since they assured me I couldn't be an alcoholic at my age, I decided I must be a psycho. I kept seeing a psychiatrist, and drinking, for a whole year. Later I learned it isn't how long you have drunk, or how much, but what alcohol has done to your life that makes you eligible for AA." Often these young speakers told of being tolerated within groups of older members, but never being given any AA jobs to do. "Even now," said a fellow in his early thirties, sober over three years, "when I'm sitting in the clubhouse and a Twelfth Step call comes in, they say I'm too young to go on it." This lack of acceptance has also taken other forms. When a young people's group was formed in one city, an AA clubhouse used by several other groups refused to let the young people meet in one of its rooms, one young "founder" reported. "But then," added the member with a youthful grin, "the clubhouse found it needed money badly, so they let us rent space after all. And lots of them come to our meetings now." In fact, one fifty-five-year-old slipper attributes his re-grasp of sobriety to this "infant" group. Such stories were told in private conversation, not in talks from the platform. And only in one of the forty people I talked to did I find anything like anger about such treatment. In that one case, the stinging memory seems a goad that spurs this young fellow into ferocious energy for twelfth-stepping other young guys. These experiences and reactions are by no means universal among younger AA members in all localities, but they had a direct effect on a number of those I talked to in Milwaukee. Younger members began banding together in their own groups. In some places, naturally enough, young AA groups were started with high hopes and flood-tide energy, but little stable or wise leadership. Groups turned into social clubs, or other Traditions were broken, and groups died. Thus, members of large, healthy young people's groups point out that in some areas the youngsters may miss the encouragement and interest of older, wiser members, and most attend other AA meetings, where they find "immediate identification with other young alcoholics," as one man put it. "We find activity," said a thirty-eight-year-old who has been sober : nine years. "We are made members of the group steering committees, we twelfth-step lots of other younger people, and when any of us goes to speak at another group, six or eight carloads of us go along." "Older people always did scare me," one girl admitted. "I guess we just rebel more at our age, even in AA groups. In the younger groups, though, there is no temptation to compare my drinking with that of the fellows who reminisce about bathtub gin or speakeasies." Others took a different tack. "My young group helps me with current problems," one fellow said. "As a young guy I have lots of domestic, professional and other personal problems. Choosing a career and getting started in it, or starting a family, are not problems most older members are now facing. So we younger ones can face them together and help one another. That's in addition to helping each other stay sober, which must come first always, of course." (In many ways, this was truly more a "family" convention than other regional AA conventions I have attended. Many pretty, young, nonalcoholic wives, active in local family Al-Anon groups, helped at every stage in the planning, served as hostesses and guides, and talked at both AA and their own meetings. One family present had four Alateen members along. Its fifteen-year-old had painted the enormous, handsome blue-and-white "Fourth International Conference, Young People in AA" banner which decorated the main AA meeting hall for the Milwaukee sessions.) If any quality besides enthusiasm and love seemed a hallmark of the brand of AA at the Milwaukee get together, it was seriousness. Healthy, honest self-criticism, frank and open self-inventory and wide varieties of opinion, were evident constantly. A thirty-seven-year-old, sober six years, summed up the value of young people's groups this way: "We show younger alcoholics that they are not different just because they are young. We show others that you can be young, and alcoholic, yet still be sober and happy in AA. Booze doesn't respect youth any more than it does age." The Milwaukee Conference helped prove those facts in a big way and must have carried the message to many other young alcoholics, or their friends. Both of Milwaukee's big daily newspapers ran many stories about "Young People in AA." Local ministers and hotel officials also helped, as did many older AA members of the Chicago-Milwaukee area. A Milwaukee clubhouse cooperated and so did the secretary of the Milwaukee Central Office. Both Illinois delegates to the Eleventh General Service Conference supported the youth conference with their presence. Of the thirty-nine AA speakers on the program, only three talked specifically about young people's groups, or the Young People's Conference idea. Others told their own stories, as AAs do everywhere, or addressed themselves to the three theme words of the Conference: Gratitude, Obedience and Devotion. But do the supporters of these Canadian-American conferences of young people in AA really advocate the formation of more groups designated especially for young people? As might be expected among any collection of good AAs, opinions differ, and each seems to have a valid foundation in its holder's own individual experience. A pamphlet distributed at the Milwaukee sessions is entitled "Facts, Aims, Purposes of Young People's Groups in AA in the United States and Canada." It declares: "...there is a great need for at least one young people's group in every city so the young coming into AA can get together once a week and discuss their problems with other young people of their own age." Some young members, as we have seen, claim that such groups made it possible for them to receive and maintain a sobriety they found impossible in other groups. Most of them insist, though, that it is necessary for any young AA to attend other meetings in addition to those for young people. Other speakers in Milwaukee denied any intention to encourage the formation of special groups. "We just want to encourage the acceptance of young people in any AA groups. We do not favor any kind of AA segregation, by age or anything else. We do not seek to divide AA, or set up any separate organization. We just want to add an extra bond of fellowship to the cement of AA." Three young members in a New England state -- who were not at the Milwaukee Convention -- say they have found no need for special young people's groups. One twenty-three-year-old mother of two came to AA when she was eighteen. "I used to window-shop the fancy stores on Fifth Avenue, in New York, dead drunk, dressed in sloppy blue jeans and a filthy sweat shirt with university letters on it, so people would think I was a college kid! AA is not for kids; it forces us to mature and I didn't want to grow up. So I slipped around for two years before I really got sober. It happened in a regular group." Her husband was in trouble because of drinking at fifteen, swore off at eighteen because of "a car-theft charge." Shaking his head wonderingly, he says, "I thought I was too young to be an alcoholic!" He sobered up in a group full of older members. His buddy's first drinks were morning ones. "I reached under the bed for the jug before I got up, in a summer work camp," he said. "I was fifteen years old." Ten years later he came to AA and "slipped around at first. I didn't see any room in this outfit for a young man to 'get ahead' -- that is, get to be group secretary!" He laughs at that now. At the age of thirty he was chosen by the name-in the-hat method prescribed in "The Third Legacy Manual" as one of his state's two delegates to the Eleventh General Service Conference in New York. Do the Young People in AA conferences divert energy that could be better utilized in contributions to AA as a whole? Maybe so. None of the young members on the program in Milwaukee spoke of service to AA as General Service Representatives, local Committeemen, or G.S. Conference Delegates. (However, the Milwaukee Central Office Secretary says local youngsters are avid GSO supporters.) There were no Grapevine Representatives or contributors among them. Little was said of institutional work and nothing about correspondence with loners; lack of information about AA as a whole and its Third Legacy seemed on a par with what I've found in almost any other AA gathering not specifically devoted to those larger, more demanding aspects of worldwide AA service. There was at the Milwaukee gathering, though, an unusually intense awareness of AA Traditions and the need for Public Information activities by AA members. Newspaper reporters were especially well treated. Nonalcoholic guests included the executive director of the Chicago Alcoholic Treatment Center, a prison warden, and a high school principal. A rehabilitation counselor of Chicago's police department was also present by invitation. On the value of special young people's groups, here is what one central office secretary from a large city said: "These young people's groups are the lifesavers of AA in our area. They are actually open to members of all ages but the service jobs in them are held by those under thirty-five. It's from these young people that we get most of the best workers who keep our Central Office functioning. They're the ones we can count on most to take on Twelfth Step jobs, institutional work and public information tasks." One of the older "advisors" of the Milwaukee Conference said: "We noticed in my regular group that young people didn't stick with us, and we had a meeting to discuss it one night. We wondered if maybe wasn't our own fault. That's why we helped establish a young people's group and now do all we can to help these conferences. You see, it's great for us!" The Milwaukee Conference had three such advisors ("We spoke only when spoken to," grinned one of them), a practice established at the second youth conference, in Chicago in 1959, when the youthful sponsors of the get-together found themselves with some pretty tough problems to lick. Over objections and warnings by some of those present in Milwaukee, a permanent "Advisory Council" was formed there to help perpetuate the youth conference idea and accumulate a body of guiding experience. Two officers from each of the first four conferences make up the Advisory Council. They hope to establish a permanent fund to insure the financial solvency of future conferences (incidentally, all who went to Milwaukee, even the speakers, paid their own way); set up their own newsletter and public information activities, and set up a permanent address for the exchange of information about young people in AA. "We're not a movement, or a breaking away from AA," one conference leader kept insisting. "Our primary purpose is to help carry the message to younger people." Perhaps these young people have a genuine, valid need for a new AA service arm, in line with our Ninth Tradition: "... we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve." Perhaps not. The member I know who has been sober longest seems quite unperturbed by such new developments as the young people's conferences. He says, "Don't forget, we have a self-corrective factor in AA. These special groups either function in the framework of AA, or they fold up. don't know what we have to be afraid of, as long as we put ourselves truly in God's hands. We ought to do everything we can to encourage them, to help them communicate with alcoholics they can reach and we can't. They don't need our censure. We owe them our love." I felt quite at home among these younger members. I was impressed by the quality of their sobriety, their dedication to AA principles and work, their determination generally to add to AA, never to detract from it or divide it. They taught me a lot, and I'll be sentimentally grateful for a long time. One thing is certain: young people, thank God, are coming to AA in increasing numbers. They hold the promise and the power of our future leadership, and the older members must help them to utilize their youth, vitality and great potential. B.L., New York City IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3164. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? From: Steve Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 12:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey All, I have a cassette tape that is marked Sister Ignatia and Bill Wilson - Longbeach Convention. The recording is old and it's obviously Bill but I am looking for confermation that the womens voice is that of Sister Ignatia. Could anyone confirm that she did speak with Bill at that convention? Thanks, Steven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3165. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill D. From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 7:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mel and interested others, Back when I was doing research at GSO in 1976, Nell Wing for sure and, I think, trustee George G. told me that Bill D's story was not in the first edition because he wanted to be paid for it. At best third-hand hearsay to you, but . . . . ernie k. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3166. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understand Him From: Archie Bunkers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 4:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In reading Glenn C.'s response to my original e-mail, I see that I did not make myself clear enough. I realize that "God as we understand Him" is a paraphrase of what James was saying. The Akron AA's knew this too. Could this early referrence to James be an indication that whoever originated the Big Book phrase "God as we understand Him" (either Bill W. or Jimmy B. or whoever) been paraphasing William James?? My point is, that if this is true, the Big Book would be that original printed source of the phrase "God as we understand Him". Archie B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Archie Bunkers" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him > This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf > > "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that > we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM." > > Is William James the source of the Big Book > phrase "God as we understand him"?? > > Archie B. > > ________________________________ > > From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana) > > The passage which Archie quotes is from one > of the four pamphlets we possess which > were written by the early AA people in Akron. > They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," > "Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous," > "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics > Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled > "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous. > > In the passage in question, which says "William > James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should > believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM," > it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron > believed, not that William James wrote that line, > but instead were agreeing that adding "as we > understand Him" to the references to God in the > twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief > that people of different personality types needed > different types of spirituality and different kinds > of conceptions of God. > > "God as we understand Him" was not a quote > from James however, as they give it in this > pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we > understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what > James was saying in the long quotation which they > give from him, where James says "Religion shall > mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of > individual men in their solitude, so far as they > apprehend themselves to stand in relation to > whatever they may consider the divine." > > The early Akron AA people were clearly saying > in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the > teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and > freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who > followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great > Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and > Buddhists, could all join together in following the > twelve steps and could understand why following > these spiritual guides to action could lead us to > the higher spiritual life. > > Here is that particular section of the pamphlet, > which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that > section, so the group can read in context what > the early Akron AA people believed: > _____________________________________ > > "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous" > > Part IV > > BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the > nebulous side, we are offered more concrete > guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality. > It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even > though it seems so at first. > > Let's examine what some of the fine minds of > history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators -- > have to say about religion. Note that none of them, > with the exception of St. James, is a professional > religionist. > > "Religion is the worship of higher powers from a > sense of need." --Allan Menzies. > > "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and > experiences of individual men in their solitude, so > far as they apprehend themselves to stand in > relation to whatever they may consider the divine." > -- William James. > > "Religion is the recognition of all our duties as > divine commands."--Immanual Kant. > > "Religion is that part of human experience in > which man feels himself in relation with powers > of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and > makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba. > > "Pure religion and undefiled before our God and > Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows > in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted > from the world."--The General Epistle of James, > 1:27. > > One cannot but be impressed with the similarity > of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps. > > The Menzies definition is nothing more than a > condensed version of the first three steps wherein > we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power > greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our > wills and lives over to that Power. > > William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we > should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM. > > Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives > over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven, > wherein we are admonished to give our lives a > thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and > restitutions are without question divine commands. > > James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step, > where we make use of our newly found powers. > > And all we need to do in the St. James passage is > to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less > and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a > matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we > were very definitely fatherless and widows. > > The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly. > There is not an ethical religion in the world today > that does not teach to a great extent the principles > of Love, Charity and Good Will. > > The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who > will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the > great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social > justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one > of our finest examples of helping one another. When > a member of the family gets into trouble of any > kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally > around with advice, admonition, and even financial > assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason > there are not more Jewish members of AA. The > family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic > problem. > > Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the > poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler, > and conduct themselves with personal dignity. > > Consider the eight-part program laid down in > Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right > action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness > and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy, > as exemplified by these eight points, could be > literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or > addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal > love and welfare of others rather than > considerations of self are basic to Buddhism. > > The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit. > Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility > and serenity. > > St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order." > We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3167. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: God as we understand Him From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 4:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Archie On the matter of "God as we understand Him" it might be useful to examine more of the pamphlet "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous." The pamphlet is far more historically endearing than it is factually enlightening. Section IV of the pamphlet contains citations from Allan Menzies, William James, Immanuel Kant, James Henry Leuba and "The General Epistle of James" 1:27 (also called "The Book of James" in other literature). In the 2nd paragraph of section IV it states: "Let's examine what some of the fine minds of history-philosophers, psychologists, educators-have to say about religion. Note that none of them, with the exception of St James, is a professional religionist." Ouch! James is the brother of Jesus. He was a martyr for his faith and is the source of the maxim "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17). I had to wince at describing him as a "professional religionist." But this is the difficulty that occurs when a member's (or group of members') viewpoint is given the aura of factual history when it is no more than the substance of opinion. The pamphlet goes on to creatively cite from William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience:" "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine." The pamphlet then creatively interprets the citation as "William James, stripped of verbiage, states that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM." Well William James has been stripped of verbiage. He didn't quite state what is being attributed to him. An accurate and contextually complete citation would read: "Religion, therefore, as I now ask you arbitrarily to take it, shall mean for us THE FEELINGS, ACTS, AND EXPERIENCES OF INDIVIDUAL MEN IN THEIR SOLITUDE, SO FAR AS THEY APPREHEND THEMSELVES TO STAND IN RELATION TO WHATEVER THEY MAY CONSIDER THE DIVINE. Since the relation may be either moral, physical, or ritual, it is evident that out of religion in the sense in which we take it, theologies, philosophies, and ecclesiastical organizations may secondarily grow. In these lectures, however, as I have already said, the immediate personal experiences will amply fill our time, and we shall hardly consider theology or ecclesiasticism at all." As far as the assertion about what William James stated, I'd put it in the same niche as the description of St James being a "professional religionist." It's probably well intended but not at all well stated. It's much more poetic license rather than a concise summation of James' magnificent book. William James didn't write about a variety of understandings. He wrote about a variety of experiences and conversions (some occurring suddenly and some occurring gradually). His book certainly allowed the notion of individual understandings of God among the varieties of religious experiences but I wouldn't focus on William James as the primary source of the notion. In AA history, it is likely that William James' book helped to reinforce a notion already planted beforehand by Ebby T and the Oxford Group. Bill W was given the book "Varieties ..." during his last stay at Towns Hospital by either Ebby T or Rowland H. Something else occurred prior to that is likely more relevant and described in the Big Book (which is sometimes underappreciated for the rich history it contains). In Chapter 1, Bill W recounts a poignant and profound revelation for which Ebby T deserves credit along with the Oxford Group: [Big Book pg 12] "Despite the living example of my friend there remained in me the vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea. I could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with scores of men who felt the same way. My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last. It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a Power greater than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it? Of course I would! Thus was I convinced that God is concerned with us humans when we want Him enough. At long last I saw, I felt, I believed. Scales of pride and prejudice fell from my eyes. A new world came into view." This goes on to be repeated and reinforced throughout the remaining chapters of the Big Book. Choosing one's own conception of God also has the brilliance that the individual cannot blame anyone else for the understanding and that they are responsible for it - good or bad. As for the addition of "God as we understand Him" in the 12 Steps (along with "Power greater than ourselves") both Jim B and Hank P are credited with being the primary influence ("AA Comes of Age" pgs 166-167). Both claimed to be atheists at the time. Although James' book was popular reading in early AA, the Oxford Group's principles and practices (and Sam Shoemaker) carried much influence - probably more than William James even though he is mentioned twice in the Big Book. Other influences such as Emmet Fox in "Power Through Constructive Thinking" and "Sermon on the Mount" and a number of other authors and books cannot be excluded either for their influence in both NY and Akron. Dick B, in his writings about the Rev Sam Shoemaker, offers quite a number of enlightening citations from Shoemaker's writings - among them: "Security lies in a faith in God which includes an experiment. It lies in believing that God is" (Shoemaker, National Awakening, pp. 40-41). "When we come to believe in God at all, we come to believe in Him as having something definite to say about our lives. To believe in the fact of the will of God is only to believe in God in the concrete" (Shoemaker, Religion That Works, p. 55). "Opening their minds to as much of God as he understood, removing first the hindrance of self-will" (Shoemaker, Children of the Second Birth, p. 47). What I'm driving at is I don't see how the notion of "God as you understand Him" can be attributed to a single primary source. It has far too much of an ecumenical nature for conversion and redemption. The idea certainly has served AA well - except when degraded to the level of "door knob" and other things of that ilk. (Rule #62). Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Archie Bunkers Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM." Is William James the source of the Big Book phrase "God as we understand him"?? Archie B. ________________________________ From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana) The passage which Archie quotes is from one of the four pamphlets we possess which were written by the early AA people in Akron. They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," "Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous," "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous. In the passage in question, which says "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM," it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron believed, not that William James wrote that line, but instead were agreeing that adding "as we understand Him" to the references to God in the twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief that people of different personality types needed different types of spirituality and different kinds of conceptions of God. "God as we understand Him" was not a quote from James however, as they give it in this pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what James was saying in the long quotation which they give from him, where James says "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine." The early Akron AA people were clearly saying in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists, could all join together in following the twelve steps and could understand why following these spiritual guides to action could lead us to the higher spiritual life. Here is that particular section of the pamphlet, which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that section, so the group can read in context what the early Akron AA people believed: _____________________________________ "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous" Part IV BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the nebulous side, we are offered more concrete guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality. It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even though it seems so at first. Let's examine what some of the fine minds of history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators -- have to say about religion. Note that none of them, with the exception of St. James, is a professional religionist. "Religion is the worship of higher powers from a sense of need." --Allan Menzies. "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine." -- William James. "Religion is the recognition of all our duties as divine commands."--Immanual Kant. "Religion is that part of human experience in which man feels himself in relation with powers of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba. "Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."--The General Epistle of James, 1:27. One cannot but be impressed with the similarity of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps. The Menzies definition is nothing more than a condensed version of the first three steps wherein we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our wills and lives over to that Power. William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM. Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven, wherein we are admonished to give our lives a thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and restitutions are without question divine commands. James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step, where we make use of our newly found powers. And all we need to do in the St. James passage is to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we were very definitely fatherless and widows. The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly. There is not an ethical religion in the world today that does not teach to a great extent the principles of Love, Charity and Good Will. The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one of our finest examples of helping one another. When a member of the family gets into trouble of any kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally around with advice, admonition, and even financial assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason there are not more Jewish members of AA. The family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic problem. Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler, and conduct themselves with personal dignity. Consider the eight-part program laid down in Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy, as exemplified by these eight points, could be literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal love and welfare of others rather than considerations of self are basic to Buddhism. The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit. Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility and serenity. St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order." We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3168. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Experience, strength, and hope From: RDUBYA . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 8:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Penny, Pleae look at the last line of the Forward to the third edition of Alcoholics Anonymous. Roger W. Penny wrote: Where did the phrase share our experience, strength and hope come from? In love and sobriety Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00 Roanoke Virginia Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is greater than the fear of letting go! Never assume some one knows you love them, take the time to tell them. SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Love and Service Roger M Weed "be strong in the Lord, and in the Power of His might". Eph 6:10 --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3169. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 7:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It appears that someone has no idea what the book I wrote was based upon or the fact that it wasn't just Clarence's bio but an historical account of early Cleveland AA. Only a small part of the book was based upon interviews with Clarence. Dozens of oral histories of early AA members in AA archival repositories - including AAGSO - were used. Several thousands of pages of original documents from Cleveland and other archival repositories including AAGSO, Stepping Stones etc were used. A couple hundred hours of live, in-person and phone interviews of long-term members and friends of AA were used. Over 11 years of extensive research, writing and review went into the book. Your constant efforts to malign and discredit the book continues to illuminate your own agenda here. The name, Jane S. does not appear in any of the early Cleveland archival materials or dozens of meeting rosters or histories of all the original groups compiled by Norm E., the recording statistician from the Cleveland Central Committee in the early 1940's. Cheers > I agree that a reasonable period of dry time should > be a factor as > opposed to just when someone might have first showed > up. Bill and Bob > had two unsuccessful Akron, OH prospects (Dr McK and > Eddie R) prior to > Bill D being dubbed "AA #3." Plus there was the > legendary "Lil." > > Using the 1-year criterion would favor Florence R > for primacy and my > vote goes to Florence. > > Jane S (presumed to be from Cleveland) predated > Clarence S (the > acknowledged Cleveland pioneer) by a year yet she is > not recalled in > Mitchell K's biography of Clarence S (based on > interviews with > Clarence). So I just don't know where Jane S fits > other than being > mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" along > with "Lil." > > Cheers > Arthur > > __________________________________ > > Message 3142 from: > Tom Hickcox > (cometkazie1 at cox.net) > Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] > First woman was Jane S., not Florence > > Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then > > it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who > was the first woman working the program of what > became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's > sobriety?" > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3170. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 12:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The October 1944 issue of the Cleveland (Ohio) Central Bulletin announced the first Young People's meeting: "Age is no barrier if you wish to participate in the meeting of one of the newest groups, organized in October. The group calls itself the Young People's Group and it was formed by several of the younger A.A.'s...20's - 30's. But they stress the fact that they do not exclude 'oldsters' from their meetings." The group met on Wednesdays at 8:30 PM in the West Side Evangelical Hall on West 38th Street and Bridge. --- Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote: > The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was > started February 1946 by > Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being > under 30 years of age they > thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with > the younger alcoholic. They > started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA > under 35 years of age. The > group had several female members. They felt they > could deal with members who > were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as > older members. They had > parties, picnic's and other social events as well > as the AA meetings. > Several years ago,at a workshop that had several > original group members, > I remember Pat C saying that she and several > other members of the group > got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st > Young Peoples convention.Most > of those that attended the workshop had a love of > life and of each other and > were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety. > The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, > February 14th at 7 P.M. at > 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania. > Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups > before that date. I think > there may have been another group in the Los Angeles > area. > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike G. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3171. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "burning desire" From: Veda . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 9:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't know about the "burning desire" but "do the next right thing" comes from the story of Dr. Paul "Doctor Alcoholic, Addict" which is now named Acceptance Is The Answer". And the saying "It works if you work it" comes from the chapter "Into Action". Where it says "It works it really does". -------Original Message------- From: hesofine2day Date: 02/13/06 00:11:05 To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "burning desire" I have an idea that many of the expressions and conventions in AA these days have seeped in from NA and/or treatment centers. Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting? Also where did the expression "do the next right thing" come from? And finally saying "It works if you work it" after the Lord's prayer. ________________________________ From the moderator: Raymond I., who shows up in my book about old time AA in northern Indiana (see http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html) frequently tells newcomers "you must want it with a burning desire." He says he didn't make up this phrase, but that it was something that other people also said back in the old days. "Old time" is relative. Raymond came into the program in 1974, but was trained by the old-time black AA members who came into South Bend AA in the 1940's. He doesn't talk treatment jargon or use the jazzy NA phrases that everybody chants at the end of their meetings. So I think that in the form "you must want it with a burning desire," the words go back to a period before all the psychobabble and high school cheerleading type stuff. The great heyday of the treatment centers funded by insurance money ran from the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's approximately, so anything prior to the mid 1980's is probably not coming from that source. But can anybody trace "you must want it with a burning desire" back before the 1970's? "Modern AA" and "old time AA" are both relative terms, and in the earliest years, 1936 is very different from 1938, 1939 is very different from 1941, and 1946 is very different from 1948 or 1949. The 1960's were very different from the 1950's. AA was going through continuous change and development during that whole period. But it was working effectively and continuing to grow and expand at an enormous rate. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3172. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "burning desire" From: j_oys5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 8:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Frank M. from Illinois early on in his story makes the statement "It works if you work it and it dont't if you don't. I do not know if he is the originator of this statement. As i have been told many times nothing in Alcoholics Anonymous is Original ! Jerry O. Southern MN. Area 36 Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3173. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker From: j_oys5672 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 8:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, sbanker914@ ... wrote: Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone). It turned out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of the tape very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude .... I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude. Susan Banker NYC ____________________________________________ It may just possibly be Gert B. If my memory serves me right I believe she was living in Iowa a number of years ago and I don't know if she is still living. I have three tapes by Gert B. Jerry Southern MN. Area 35 Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3174. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B From: Russ Hillard . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 12:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Well, that didn't take long.... See http://www.doctoryourself.com/hoffer_niacin.html - to pique your interest here is an excerpt: "The term vitamin B-3 was reintroduced by my friend Bill W., co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, (Bill Wilson). We met in New York in 1960. Humphry Osmond and I introduced him to the concept of mega vitamin therapy. We described the results we had seen with our schizophrenic patients, some of whom were also alcoholic. We also told him about its many other properties. It was therapeutic for arthritis, for some cases of senility and it lowered cholesterol levels. Bill was very curious about it and began to take niacin, 3 g daily. Within a few weeks fatigue and depression which had plagued him for years were gone. He gave it to 30 of his close friends in AA and persuaded them to try it. Within 6 months he was convinced that it would be very helpful to alcoholics. Of the thirty, 10 were free of anxiety, tension and depression in one month. Another 10 were well in two months. He decided that the chemical or medical terms for this vitamin were not appropriate. He wanted to persuade members of AA, especially the doctors in AA, that this would be a useful addition to treatment and he needed a term that could be more readily popularized. He asked me the names that had been used. I told him it was originally known as vitamin B-3. This was the term Bill wanted. In his first report to physicians in AA he called it "The Vitamin B-3 Therapy." Thousands of copies of this extraordinary pamphlet were distributed. Eventually the name came back and today even the most conservative medical journals are using the term vitamin B-3. Bill became unpopular with the members of the board of AA International. The medical members who had been appointed by Bill, felt that he had no business messing about with treatment using vitamins. They also "knew" vitamin B-3 could not be therapeutic as Bill had found it to be. For this reason Bill provided information to the medical members of AA outside of the National Board, distributing three of his amazing pamphlets. They are now not readily available." Regards, Russ HIllard JOHN e REID wrote: I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide me with an electronic copy. Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot, having "done" my first 4 and 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3 months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the 1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct and personal guidance from Wesley Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out. Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt and pepper shaker, so as I would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental) hopelessness of the disease. Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold Disease!!!! Kind Regards, John R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3175. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B From: Russ Hillard . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 11:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All - John's inquiry below has prompted me to look around a bit. The search has just started, but I have found that Dr Abram Hoffer knew Bill W and he is apparently the original source of Bill's interest in niacin (one of the B-complex vitamins) for the treatment of alcoholism. Dr Andrew Saul has written extensively on the importance of nutritional factors (including, but not limited to, B-complex vitamins) in the treatment of alcoholism. For a quick introduction you might look at http://www.doctoryourself.com/alcoholism.html If I turn up anything really historical I'll let you know. Best regards, Russ Hillard JOHN e REID wrote: I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide me with an electronic copy. Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot, having "done" my first 4 and 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3 months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the 1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct and personal guidance from Wesley Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out. Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt and pepper shaker, so as I would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental) hopelessness of the disease. Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold Disease!!!! Kind Regards, John R [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, and more on new and used cars. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3176. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Experience, strength, and hope From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 5:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Penny "Experience, strength and hope" first appeared in the June 1947 Grapevine. That issue carried the introduction of what we today call the "AA Preamble." It was written by Tom Y, Grapevine's first editor and was based on the foreword to the 1st edition Big Book. The full text of the preamble and after-notes, as it read then in the June 1947 Grapevine was: Alcoholics Anonymous Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share, their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. A.A. has no dues or fees. It is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, and neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. The A.A. Program of Recovery is incorporated in The 12 Steps. The A.A. book of experience, Alcoholics Anonymous, and other literature, including The 12 Points of Tradition, are available through any group or the Central Office, P.O. Box 459, Grand Central Annex, New York 17, N. Y. The term "experience, strength and hope" was also incorporated into the Foreword to the 3rd edition Big Book. Not that long ago it became the title for the anthology containing the personal stories deleted from prior editions of the Big Book. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Penny Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 2:15 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Experience, strength, and hope Where did the phrase share our experience, strength and hope come from? In love and sobriety Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00 Roanoke Virginia Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is greater than the fear of letting go! Never assume some one knows you love them, take the time to tell them. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3177. . . . . . . . . . . . Self-Support From: sunnykhill12 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/14/2006 2:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was there an article in the Grapevine or in some other publication that suggested a $1 per meeting donation in the meeting basket? If so, what year was it published. I am seeing my Area and District struggle financially because groups only have enough money to cover their own expenses with the $1 mentality. Any information would help - I have been asked to do a self-support workshop. Thanks, Sunny H. Little Rock, AR IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3178. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker From: David G. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2006 5:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Ms. Baker, Check out the link below to the biography of Gertrude Behanna. Text and Real Audio tapes are available. http://www.aabibliography.com/gertbehanna.htm#biog Dave Illinois USA Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:16:44 EST Dear Art, I've been a member of AAHistoryLovers for a long time and enjoy the list very much. Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone). It turned out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of the tape very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude. She was more than middle aged when she made the tape and she had been sober a long time. She knew Dr. Shoemaker and I think was a member of his congregation. Most vividly I remember her telling of the years she had lived in a house in Santa Fe which she had filled up with needy women in early recovery. I wish I had copied the tape, but I didn't. I passed it along to another recovering woman. I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude. Susan B. NYC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3179. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/15/2006 12:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the Brown University archives there is a post card from a Camp Ouendake on Beausoleil Island in Gerorian Bay National Park that said it was for alcoholics and their families. It also said "no rowdysim, alcoholic beverages, dogs or firearms." No date on the card as I recall. My questions are: Were there other AA family vacation or living facilities? Have there been any AA flavored (or AA and Al-Anon) communitites (or small developments) established over the years? I ask because a few of we retired AA seniors have begun researching the possibiity of such a small retirement housing development for our families and we could certainly benefit from the lessons of others. So far, we have not found an AA related communtiy (or 12th step community) projects and we are looking at only http://www.cohousing.org/overview.aspx as a beginning guidline for discussion among outselves with a focus on sober retirement living. Pete Kopcsak Nashville, TN IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3180. . . . . . . . . . . . "More will be revealed" From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2006 12:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know where the phrase "More will be revealed" came from? Someone asked me the other day and I can't find it in the literature. Of course that might mean I haven't read something I need to have read anyway yet. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3181. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob`s Nightmare From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/16/2006 10:38:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Attending an archives workshop we came across an interesting question, on page 175 there is mention of Dr. Bob`s father sending a doctor from their hometown to bring him back there. Which consequently kept Dr. Bob in bed for the NEXT 2 months before he could eventually venture out of the house.Suffering from the effects of his alcoholoic behavior certainly required some medical attention during this convelescence.We could not determine the DOCTORS name who brought Dr. Bob back to St. Johnsbury for this rehabilation attempt.Does anyone know of the NAME of this DOCTOR from St. Johnsbury,Vt. Inquisitively Grateful, Fred IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3182. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker From: Bruce A. Johanson . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 1:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Or it could be this Gertrude? http://www.aabibliography.com/gertbehanna.htm Great story of her! Bruce A. Johanson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3183. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 2:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Pete, there is no longer a camp Ouendake on Beausoleil Island which is located in Georgian Bay, Ontario, This is a web site that can give you some information re. this Island http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/on/georg/natcul/natcul3_e.asp enjoy Joe N. _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greatcir@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:51 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living In the Brown University archives there is a post card from a Camp Ouendake on Beausoleil Island in Gerorian Bay National Park that said it was for alcoholics and their families. It also said "no rowdysim, alcoholic beverages, dogs or firearms." No date on the card as I recall. My questions are: Were there other AA family vacation or living facilities? Have there been any AA flavored (or AA and Al-Anon) communitites (or small developments) established over the years? I ask because a few of we retired AA seniors have begun researching the possibiity of such a small retirement housing development for our families and we could certainly benefit from the lessons of others. So far, we have not found an AA related communtiy (or 12th step community) projects and we are looking at only http://www.cohousing.org/overview.aspx as a beginning guidline for discussion among outselves with a focus on sober retirement living. Pete Kopcsak Nashville, TN IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3184. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "burning desire" From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 4:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is this just opinion? I have read Dr Paul's story again just now and see nothing in there that I feel resembles that quote and "It works it really does," seems a far cry from the mindless chant heard at a lot of meetings. At some of my groups, after the end of the Lord's prayer, we say......STAY. Chuck Parkhurst ______________________________ Responding to Message 3171 from "Veda" (mcveda at yahoo.com) I don't know about the "burning desire" but "do the next right thing" comes from the story of Dr. Paul "Doctor Alcoholic, Addict" which is now named "Acceptance Is The Answer". And the saying "It works if you work it" comes from the chapter "Into Action". Where it says "It works it really does." ______________________________ Which was a response to Message 3158 from (hesofine2day at yahoo.com) Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting? Also where did the expression "do the next right thing" come from? And finally saying "It works if you work it" after the Lord's prayer. ______________________________ From the moderator: I presume that Veda's reference to Dr. Paul's story is referring to the next to last paragraph, which says: "Acceptance is the key to my relationship with God today. I never just sit and do nothing while waiting for Him to tell me what to do. Rather, I do whatever is in front of me to be done, and I leave the results up to Him; however it turns out, that's God's will for me." So on the basis of those two references to the Big Book, it looks like we would have to say that "It works if you work it" is not a precise quotation from the Big Book, although it has some parallels to the phrase "It works it really does." I would see it myself as more of an attempt to summarize an important part of the message at the beginning of chapter 5 in the Big Book, where it says things such as "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path" and "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it -- then you are ready to take certain steps." And "do the next right thing" is also not a precise quotation from the Big Book, although it could be regarded as a summary of the next to last paragraph of Dr. Paul's story. The problem here is that, if "do the next right thing" was already circulating as an AA slogan prior to the publication of the third edition of the Big Book in 1955, then what Dr. Paul said could have been an expansion of the idea contained in that AA slogan instead of vice versa. So far though, none of our members have given us any information about WHEN "burning desire" or "do the next right thing" or "it works if you work it" first started being used as slogans in AA circles, let alone who might have devised these phrases. Until we have at least some approximate dates, we are, as Chuck points out, just guessing. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3185. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "More will be revealed" From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 5:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cheryl Though the phrase "more will be revealed" is heard way too frequently at AA meetings, it appears nowhere in the basic text of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. It is another example of many people at our meetings claiming "the Big Book says," when in fact our textbook says nothing of the sort. The closest thing to that expression in our book is on pg 164 and states ....."God will constantly disclose more to you and to us" The way my sponsor explained it to me when I first got sober was, I need not wait for more to be revealed (when?!?) as opposed to knowing that God will constantly disclose things to me, providing I practice all the principles that the program requires (our steps). It is also my understanding that the phrase you quoted is in the basic text of a book from another 12-step program, Narcotics Anonymous. Maybe someone more familiar with that fellowship's literature can confirm that. In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3186. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "More will be revealed" From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 8:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cheryl, I'd say that this was probably suggested by the next to last paragraph in "A Vision for You," in the Big Book. It says, "We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order." Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3187. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 8:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The October 1944 Cleveland, Ohio Central Bulletin mentions formation that month of "The Young People's Group." Was this the first such group? I do not know. In a talk in Akron, historian Ernie Kurtz said that historians refer to the word "first" as the "f-word." _________________________ From the moderator: October 1944 is earlier than the other citations we have received from members of this group. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3188. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 10:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 23:22 2/13/2006 , Mitchell K. wrote: >The October 1944 issue of the Cleveland (Ohio) Central >Bulletin announced the first Young People's meeting: >"Age is no barrier if you wish to participate in the >meeting of one of the newest groups, organized in >October. The group calls itself the Young People's >Group and it was formed by several of the younger >A.A.'s...20's - 30's. But they stress the fact that >they do not exclude 'oldsters' from their meetings." > >The group met on Wednesdays at 8:30 PM in the West >Side Evangelical Hall on West 38th Street and Bridge. > Mitchell, Did the meeting survive, as in continue? The reason I ask is I know of several similar meetings in my local area that were started but never "took" and petered out after a relatively brief time, on the order of months. Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3189. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understand Him From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 10:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Big Book page 12 "My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, 'Why don't you choose your own conception of God?'" Curious how seldom when this topic gets discussed that Bill's grandfather's influence, from just two pages earlier, is forgotten. Big Book page 10 " He talked for hours. Childhood memories rose before me. I could almost hear the sound of the preacher's voice as I sat, on still Sundays, way over there on the hillside; there was that proffered temperance pledge I never signed; my grandfather's good natured contempt of some church folk and their doings; his insistence that the spheres really had their music; but his denial of the preacher's right to tell him how he must listen; his fearlessness as he spoke of these things just before he died; these recollections welled up from the past. They made me swallow hard. " IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3190. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill D. From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 9:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Ernie, In November, 1952, I spent the better part of a day with Bill D., who was AA Number Three. I don't believe he withheld his personal story from the First Edition because he wanted to be paid for it. He was not that kind of a guy. My recollection is that he was not excited by the book project and may have even thought it wasn't necessary. But he did tell me that Bill W. had come out to Akron and recorded his story for the next edition. I believe today that the Bill D. story we see in the Big Book was written by Bill W. from the information he taped and wouldn't have been produced if Bill W. hadn't taken the initiative in recording Bill D.'s story. Of course, Bill W. would have then cleared it with Bill D. for accuracy, etc. For Bill W., that probably meant lugging one of those old-fashioned reel recorders all the way out to Akron, but it was something he obviously considered necessary. Bill D. was a kindly, friendly man who was much loved as the Grand Old Man of AA in Akron, a role he seemed to have following Dr. Bob's death. But he didn't have Bill W.'s drive and vision. Maybe that's just as well, as he never seemed to create trouble for Bill and Bob in their efforts to enlarge the fellowship. He did have mixed feelings about Bill W., and may have felt that Bill was getting too much credit. I had heard him called "The Guinea Pig," but it was clear he didn't like this term. It turns out that Bill W. used it one day when they were all on the platform at a large meeting, and he appeared to resent it. Bill W. also told me that Bill D.'s feelings about him were "ambivalent," so Bill D. wasn't entirely in Bill W.'s corner. But he did cooperate with Bill W. on important matters and was even the first delegate from the Akron area. Bill D. had a marveous wife, Henrietta, whose prayers and support were probably a factor in his getting sober. She was a matron at the Akron City Workhouse, and I even visited her in her office there in 1958. She was still living in 1980 just after "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was published. I went out to visit her and even read portions of the book that applied to her and Bill D. By that time, she was blind and living with her son and his family. I find myself almost in tears when I recall that visit. Mel Barger _____________________ Responding to the message from Ernie K.: Mel and interested others, Back when I was doing research at GSO in 1976, Nell Wing for sure and, I think, trustee George G. told me that Bill D's story was not in the first edition because he wanted to be paid for it. At best third-hand hearsay to you, but . . . . ernie k. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3191. . . . . . . . . . . . Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/17/2006 9:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi) preamble, Dallas, Texas. She wrote the story "Flower of the South." She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas. Anybody have any idea how many different AA talks there are by her which are still obtainable?? LD Pierce editor aabibliograpy.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3192. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Self-Support From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2006 9:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Sunny, Maybe you are thinking of the current article, "A Buck in the Basket" in the February 2006 Grapevine. The author, Jack H., is actually suggesting two bucks, in view of growing inflation and rising expenses for groups. Jack is a friend of mine and worked real hard to get that article published. I am still having a hard time upping my contributions to $2, but I'm sure I'll get to that point soon. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3193. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? From: Mike and Sarah . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 10:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Steve - Yes, she did. Mike D. Houston, TX SETA Archives __________________________ From: Steve Leeds Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? Hey All, I have a cassette tape that is marked Sister Ignatia and Bill Wilson -Longbeach Convention. The recording is old and it's obviously Bill but I am looking for confermation that the womens voice is that of Sister Ignatia. Could anyone confirm that she did speak with Bill at that convention? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3194. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Self-Support From: Jerry Oys . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 7:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- sunnykhill12 wrote: > Was there an article in the Grapevine or in some > other publication > that suggested a $1 per meeting donation in the > meeting basket? If > so, what year was it published. I am seeing my Area > and District > struggle financially because groups only have enough > money to cover > their own expenses with the $1 mentality. > Any information would help - I have been asked to > do a self-support > workshop. > Thanks, > Sunny H. > Little Rock, AR > > There are many Grapeviine articles addressing Self -Support written by Bill W. and I belive others. If you subscribe to the Grapevine for $10.00 a year you can acess the Grapevine Digital archives and do a search on Self- Support and they will all popup. > > FYI - The idea or thought suggesting the putting of $2.00 in the basket as it was passed around the room or table appeared in a Grapevine Article in 1950 by Bill. > > In the time period of 1986 / 1990 and possibly later GSO produced a green binder titled Self Support. It contained various pieces of materiasl. The most significant piece to me is the piece titled The Challage of the Seventh Tradition. GSO also prouduced a flyer showing a hand with 2 $1.00 bills haging from it. Which believe was in the same time period. I have the binder in my posession. I hope this helps you in your venture. Sometimes Quickly ,Sometimes Slowly. In I Alcoohlics Anonymous have learned from my experience that We can't hear until we can hear and We can't see until we can see! In Service Jerry Southern MN. Area 36 Archivist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3195. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: movie slang From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 8:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Never heard the cliche, "Do the next right thing" until the Spike Lee movie "Do the Right Thing" was released in 1989. It's street slang, the type commonly used by professional athletes as they're leaving their third halfway house. No God. No Steps. Just me, deciding what the next right thing might be. Managing my life again, just like the old days. john lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3196. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "More will be revealed" From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 10:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Chapter Ten of Narcotics Anonymous, commonly referred to as the Basic Text, is titled More Will Be Revealed. It is the last chapter in Book One of the text, which contains the program of Narcotics Anonymous. Book Two contains the personal stories. Chris Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3197. . . . . . . . . . . . The Late Liz From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2006 4:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII i checked out this web site and also the IMB (internet movie database). the movie "the late liz" indeed was made in 1971 and starred ann baxter (extremely well acclaimed actress as would be attested by our history lover elders). i've never seen the movie and so my question is (and i'm asking anyone), should this movie be added to our history lover's database. it would seem so. any input would be appreciated - direct them to me as to not clog up the group mail (billyk3@yahoo.com). thanks - be good to yourselves, billyk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3198. . . . . . . . . . . . Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2006 2:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold time after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York. I learned that he coined the expression... "One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"... I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his life... Does anyone know more about him? I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall quietly weeping alone in my room. It keeps getting better Gene in Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3199. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Self-Support From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/21/2006 5:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII i have to comment here. one of my sponsors once told me that since i was one of the lucky ones that didn't lose the wife, family, house etc., and that i was 'doing okay', i should put in the basket what i spent of booze. well... if that were the case, our clubhouse would be adding a mighty fine addition to the building. but i read that article too (in grapevine, feb 2006) and i thought it was well written and really brought home the fact that inflation really has been ignored. and maybe, people should up their donation to $2 if just once in a while. but, something i learned from a close friend in the fellowship. i give exactly a dollar a day. if it's been 3 days since my last meeting, i give $4 (which is usually a five cause i don't have four ones). and i always look for the opportunity to do a little more like buy the newcomer a big book or support a clubhouse activity (any clubhouse-not just mine). i can't put a price on my sobriety, but the fact remains that in this world, rent, coffee, materials, etc., all costs money. that fellow who wrote the grapevine article said it all at the end. "i am responsible......" and i accept that responsibilty with a glad heart. billyk IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3200. . . . . . . . . . . . Silkworth''s theory From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/19/2006 2:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi history lovers, can you please tell us if any of the other doctors at the Charles Townes Hospital agreed or disagreed with Dr Silkworth's allergy theory, thank you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3201. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "More will be revealed" From: Julie . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 3:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Found it in alanon book. "How Alanon Works" on page 68 under Easy Does It "If the time is right, more will be revealed." Chris Budnick wrote: Chapter Ten of Narcotics Anonymous, commonly referred to as the Basic Text, is titled More Will Be Revealed. It is the last chapter in Book One of the text, which contains the program of Narcotics Anonymous. Book Two contains the personal stories. Chris Raleigh, NC SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3202. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? From: rfuhrman1011@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 10:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.440.com/favesw.html this is web site about the history of AM radio and mentions Big Joe Rob Fuhrman Huntington, IN -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:47 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold time after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York. I learned that he coined the expression... "One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"... I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his life... Does anyone know more about him? I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall quietly weeping alone in my room. It keeps getting better Gene in Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3203. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: movie slang From: jocis007@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2006 11:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you assume them." from chapter 7 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3204. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 9:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi LD Based on research I've been doing for the last few years, I'm fairly certain that the so-called "Esther's Preamble" should not be attributed to her as her invention. If you are referring to what is also sometimes called the "Texas Preamble" I don't believe that my home state of Texas should be credited with its invention either. As a resident of Arlington, TX I don't pass this on with enthusiasm but I'm doing extensive research for publication of a paper on how AA started in Fort Worth and Dallas. There is much myth surrounding this. A January 1945 article was submitted to the Grapevine by Merle S of Dallas, TX saluting Esther E as starting AA in Dallas upon her arrival in 1943. However, evidence exists, in GSO Archives news-clipping scrapbooks that AA started in Dallas as early as 1941. Due to the impact of mobilization for World War II, early Dallas pioneers were eventually relocated elsewhere through war work or service in the armed forces. Esther E certainly was a pioneer in revitalizing AA in Dallas. A woman she sponsored, by the name of Anne T, similarly helped revitalize AA in Fort Worth during the difficult war years of the early to mid-1940's. Ester was also very instrumental in helping to start AA in San Antonio. A remarkable series of correspondence between Esther and Bobbie B, AA's second national Secretary, provide a detailed history of the development of AA in Dallas and Fort Worth. One thing that can be definitely stated about Esther is that she was a remarkable woman and a natural historian. Her correspondence with Bobbie has revealed information I've been searching for about 3 years now. There is no doubt in my mind that Esther's correspondence provides the definitive history for how AA originated in the Fort Worth/Dallas metroplex (as well as a few other Texas locations). In regard to the preamble, several variations are attributed to different locations in the US. Barring the discovery of dated source documents, the establishment of primacy is probably beyond possibility at this point in time. The preamble contains material from the "Akron Manual" (c 1940)as well as extracts from the 1st edition Big Book Foreword and basic text. The earliest genuine copy of the preamble I've been able to locate locally is in a 1946 document in the archives of the Harbor Club in Fort Worth, TX. The preamble originated some years prior to that but I haven't been able yet to locate an earlier original or facsimile. I'll send you some additional material to your web site email address unless you want me to send it to a different address. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diazeztone Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:57 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Ester's preamble, Dallas, Texas I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi) preamble, Dallas, Texas. She wrote the story "Flower of the South." She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas. Anybody have any idea how many different AA talks there are by her which are still obtainable?? LD Pierce editor aabibliograpy.com Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3205. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 1:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gene: I've heard that Big Joe's show was underwritten by the Salvation Army and was one of the first call-in shows on radio (you only heard his voice). It promoted people helping one another and had a strong spiritual angle. This is Rosenfeld's obituary as it appeared in The New York Times: ------------------- Published: December 19, 1987 LEAD: Joe Rosenfield Jr., who was the host of a radio talk show called ''The Happiness Exchange'' for many years, died on Nov. 22 at a nursing home in Falmouth, Me., after a long illness. He was 86 years old. Joe Rosenfield Jr., who was the host of a radio talk show called ''The Happiness Exchange'' for many years, died on Nov. 22 at a nursing home in Falmouth, Me., after a long illness. He was 86 years old. Mr. Rosenfield, who was known as Big Joe, did a nighttime show during what was called ''the insomnia stretch'' from 2 to 5 A.M. Broadcast over several New York radio stations from 1949 to 1962, the show raised large sums in contributions by letting the unfortunate air their troubles. Born and raised in Tennessee, Mr. Rosenfield began his first nighttime program with his son, Joe 3d, in New Orleans. His nickname, Big Joe, evolved to differentiate him from his son. Mr. Rosenfield is survived by his second wife, Ruth, of Falmouth, Me.; a son, Joe, of Acton, Mass., and a daughter, Dorothy Fisher- Smith, of Ashland, Ore.; six grandchildren, and six great- grandchildren. --------------- I didn't listen to Big Joe, myself. I'd listen to Jean Shepherd on WOR, keeping the volume low so my parents wouldn't know I was up so late on a school night. I'll never forget how Shepherd would tell you to put your radio on the window sill and turn the volume all the way up; then he would "hurl an invective" at your neighbors. Something like, "I can't stand this neighborhood. Take your goddamn wash off the line!!" Just the sort of thing for a somewhat demented 14 year-old. John K in Charlotte --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" wrote: > > When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and > listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold time > after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a > show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York. > I learned that he coined the expression... > "One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"... > I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his > life... > Does anyone know more about him? > I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall quietly > weeping alone in my room. > > It keeps getting better > Gene in Westchester > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3206. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2006 2:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Texas Preamble" Art: One thing I vaguely remember is that the so called "Texas Preamble" appeared once in the Grapevine several years ago. I do not remember the month or year, but, I remember reading it there. You might know something of it or want to look into it. tmd IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3207. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript From: Mike and Sarah . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 12:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 2-20-06 Dear MK - Just finally getting to read a great deal of saved AA History Lovers E-mails. Wow. Just a question. Regarding an e-mail from you on January 26,06 regarding galleys, Cornwall, Living Sober, etc. My question, regarding the friend of Barry. Maybe also even just yourself? I have been wondering about the 'Bill's Birthday talk' that he gave at NY Intergroup every year. Especially the final talk of Bill at the NY Intergroup event which was held on or close to his own birthday... '69, '70? Do you, or did Barry and/or his friend know if a recording of this event ever was made? Was / is it an item held in the archives of GSO? I have asked them about it...no response as of yet. OK. So, I guess that is as about as simple as I can put it across to you. Regardless, thanks for being part of this. Mike D. Houston, TX SETA Archives Committee -----Original Message----- >From: "Mitchell K." >Sent: Jan 26, 2006 4:38 AM >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript > > > > From what I have learned, this >> one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the >> Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in >> February 1939--- > >Just a quick geographical correction. The Cornwall >Press was located in Cornwall, NY located in Orange >County, NY. The first edition printings were done >there as were several of the 2nd edition printings. >The company merged with another and from what I >understand, further printings were done in New Jersey. > >When the galleys were gone over, it was done by Bill >W., Hank P., Ruth Hock and Dorothy Snyder who came up >to Cornwall to go over them. > >As far as Barry's family giving anything to AAWS, due >to a history of problems, litigation and pending >litigation over royalties for Living Sober They had no >desire to give AAWS anything. There was a great deal >of animosity generated. I remember going over all the >drafts for Living Sober which were housed in a >friend's apartment in Connecticut. This friend had >many of Barry's materials as well as another friend's >materials which were left to him (Ron was involved >with many of the private recordings of Bill W. and >Bill speaking at his anniversaries in NYC - I think >close to 200 of them and left them to Dennis when he >passed on). I have no idea where these materials might >be today (I do have some guesses). Dennis was a >collector of AA memorabilia and had a small but >amazing collection. There were some great "spook", LSD >and vitamin B tapes but as I was only allowed to >listen to portions of them, not make copies or take >notes, unless they surface again, the material >contained in them might be lost. > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3208. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/20/2006 8:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I saw one in the Houston Intergroup office years ago. "diazeztone" (eztone at hotmail.com) wrote in saying: I am looking for a copy of Ester's preamble, Dallas, Texas. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3209. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Self-Support From: Azor521@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/22/2006 8:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the February 2006 AA Grapevine on page 21 is an excellent article titled, "A Buck in the Basket?" The on line Grapevine archives are awesome! _www.aagrapevine.org_ (http://www.aagrapevine.org) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3210. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Late Liz From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 5:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a copy of this movie and just watched it for the first time. Here is my revue: Woman drinks Woman drinks more (always has a drink in each hand) Woman drinks non-stop with fake friends Woman cheats on second husband Woman drinks Woman remarries Woman experiences alcoholic progression Woman's alcoholism pushes away older son, younger son forgives and stays with her Woman drinks Woman's alcoholism pushes away third husband Woman experiences alcoholic insanity and bewilderment Woman tries to commit suicide by taking many sleeping pills with booze Woman has a spiritual experience while near dead Woman awakes from the coma Woman fights off urges to drink and begins to annoy fake friends with talk about God Woman's conversion experience leads her to a church thanks to her youngest son Woman commits herself to being involved with the church Woman begins to help a friend who also has a drinking problem thanks to the help of her new pastor The End Just Love, Barefoot Bill -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of billyk Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 4:40 AM To: bajohanson@charter.net; History Lovers Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Late Liz i checked out this web site and also the IMB (internet movie database). the movie "the late liz" indeed was made in 1971 and starred ann baxter (extremely well acclaimed actress as would be attested by our history lover elders). i've never seen the movie and so my question is (and i'm asking anyone), should this movie be added to our history lover's database. it would seem so. any input would be appreciated - direct them to me as to not clog up the group mail (billyk3@yahoo.com). thanks - be good to yourselves, billyk [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3211. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "burning desire" From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2006 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi group, Here's a 'burning desire' to reply to this post before its thread goes away. "Do the right thing" is a movie, the title copyrighted by Spike Lee's film company. AA's Eleventh Step, "praying only for knowledge of His will and the power to carry it out" has had much input and interpretation over our years of existence. Our early founders spoke of the search for the 'next, best, indicated course' of action, specifically relating to Step Eleven. I agree with our Moderator, Glenn, that "old time" is a relative concept on this phrase---not many speak the same way as was spoken in the late 1930s. From recollections of Ruth Hock's daughter, that exact phrase "next, best, indicated" was used verbatim and regularly. The phrase evolved into the 'next, best, thing' that I first heard many years ago, too, but let's remember that it comes from Step Eleven. "It Works If You Work It!" is part of our ever-longer chants that follow a meeting closing...Phrases like "keep coming back" usually start it, and 'keep coming back, it works if you work it, sober!' are the current norm, with arms waving and all...From my own experience, this "gospel shout" comes from treatment centers and nowhere else, and it took hold in AA in the early 1990s. I don't believe it has caused any harm, but at face value it's pretty silly. Just think, if this stuff was going on in the 1950s, the Hokey-Pokey dance would have fit just fine with the closing chant! "Does anyone have a 'burning desire' to share" or "to add more thoughts" is a normal question a meeting chair can ask before closing an AA meeting. I still hear it a lot. Rick, Illinois ___________________________ A comment by the moderator: Rick, What makes the idea of the whole AA group dancing what would become known as the "Higher Power Hokey-Pokey" in a circle after the closing prayer, and finishing up with a shouted "and that's what it's all about!" is that I can halfway imagine it actually happening! Turn backward, O time, in thy flight! Your friend, Glenn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3212. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas From: jeanne avolio . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2006 7:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This was sent to me about 7 months ago, I dont know if it's the same one your talking about here,thought i'd share it with the group..I had it read at my birthday meeting this past aug..Many were surprised to kno as I was that there was another one written years ago.maybe someone in the group can give a history on this.In His Grace >>Jeanne AA Old Preamble - 1940 We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are powerless over alcohol and unable to do anything about it without the help of a Power greater than ourselves. We feel that each person's religious views, if any, are his own affair. The simple purpose of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is to show what may be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be. In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do to that Power, we must at first apply ourselves with some diligence. By often repeating these acts, they become habitual and the help rendered becomes natural to us. We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from a serious illness for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may be the result of an allergy, which makes us different from other people. It has never been by any treatment with which we are familiar, permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute abstinence, the second meaning of A.A. There are no dues or fees. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. Each member squares his debt by helping others to recover. An Alcoholics Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application and adherence to the A.A. program has forsworn the use of any and all alcoholic beverage in any form. The moment he takes so much as one drop of beer, wine, spirits or any other alcoholic beverage he automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. A.A. is not interested in sobering up drunks who are not sincere in their desire to remain sober for all time. Not being reformers, we offer our experience only to those who want it. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and on which we can join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our program. Those who do not recover are people who will not or simply cannot give themselves to this simple program. Now you may like this program or you may not, but the fact remains, it works. It is our only chance to recover. There is a vast amount of fun in the A.A. fellowship. Some people might be shocked at our seeming worldliness and levity but just underneath there lies a deadly earnestness and a full realization that we must put first things first and with each of us the first thing is our alcoholic problem. To drink is to die. Faith must work twenty-four hours a day in and through us or we perish. In order to set our tone for this meeting I ask that we bow our heads in a few moments of silent prayer and meditation. I wish to remind you that whatever is said at this meeting expresses our own individual opinion as of today and as of up to this moment. We do not speak for A.A. as a whole and you are free to agree or disagree as you see fit, in fact, it is suggested that you pay no attention to anything which might not be reconciled with what is in the A.A. Big Book. If you don't have a Big Book, it's time you bought you one. Read it, study it, live with it, loan it, scatter it, and then learn from it what it means to be an A.A." ----------- diazeztone wrote: I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi) preamble, Dallas, Texas. She wrote the story "Flower of the South." She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas. Anybody have any idea how many different AA talks there are by her which are still obtainable?? LD Pierce editor aabibliograpy.com SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3213. . . . . . . . . . . . The God Angle From: anmtcup . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2006 3:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Looking for information on a book similar to the 24 hour a day book format entitled THE GOD ANGLE by The God Angle Committee, 1972. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3214. . . . . . . . . . . . Grapevine article on Mayflower phone calls From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/18/2006 5:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Looking for a link or copy of an article or articles Bill wrote in the RHS Memorial Grapevine edition of the Grapevine. These articles relate to the phone calls Bill reports making from the Mayflower Hotel in Akron. I only need that one article (or articles), not access to all the back copies of the Grapevine on line. Please contact me at: (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3215. . . . . . . . . . . . "Next Right Action" - Dr. Paul O. From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 1:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There was a question as to where "The next right action" came from in the fellowship. I cannot give a certain response, but i do know the first place i've seen it written. In the stories in the back of the book, the wonderful story of Dr. Paul O. published in the 3rd ed "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" (BB3 439-452u)... and in the 4th ed as "Acceptance was the answer." At the end of his story, i believe in the second to last paragraph... he speaks of knowing that at any given moment, God's will for him is simply the "Next right action." Although this story is famous for it's slant on acceptance... my personal favorite paragraph is the afore mentioned. That and where he discusses his perspective in relation to his wife Max. I am a part of the fellowship here in Southern California, Orange County. I go to several meeting where Dr. Paul O. was the founding member of the meeting. His spirit lives on here and is felt constantly. My home group meeting is where he sat every Wednesday night for years. I love and cherish his legacy of "next right action." Keeps me in the now when i choose to act. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3216. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: movie slang From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 5:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jocis007@... wrote: > > do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these > responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you assume them." from > chapter 7 > That's a real stretch. You could make a better argument for the language at the bottom of page 87 of Big Book, "...ask for the right thought or action." The point is that "do the next right thing" is a popular cliche, heard on the street, in the media and, only incidentally, in meetings since 1989. The first eleven chapters of Big Book use the word "money" thirteen times, but I wouldn't claim that the cliche, "Show me the money" comes from the Big Book. love+tolerance john > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3217. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: movie slang--Do the [next] right thing From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 6:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jocis007@... wrote: > > do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these > responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you assume them." from > chapter 7 I should have been more specific, and I promptly admit it. The original source of the cliche is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Hall of Fame basketball player, political activist and buddy of Spike Lee. Mr. Abdul-Jabbar's well-known quote was, "I try to do the right thing at the right time." Spike Lee is a huge basketball fan and polical activist. Spike modified Kareem's quote for his movie title, so that the quote became "Do the right thing". The quote doesn't come from Big Book or any AA source. It's just Polly-Parrot rhetoric used liberally by corporate public relations officers, high school civics teachers, group therapy moderators and recovery group members. john where the Monongahela meets the Allegheny, to form the Ohio > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3218. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Self-Support From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/23/2006 9:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I remember when I first started coming around (1976), the oldtimers said "toss in the cost of a drink" You could get a good stiff drink for a buck in 1976. Can't do that now. If we still were tossing in the cost of a drink we might still be self-supporting. _________________________ A comment from the moderator: I think this is useful. We need to pool our knowledge of early AA history and get a better idea of the reasoning that was used, back at that point in AA history, for deciding that a dollar was a reasonable amount. Just like Kimball, I have also heard old timers talking about it in the context of how much it cost for a drink. What other reasoning did they actually use for deciding on the figure of a dollar? I'm not talking about us just guessing about it, but would like to hear from people who remember old timers actually talking about it. A dollar for a good stiff drink in 1976 sounds about right, and seventy-five cents to a dollar for a beer. What would it be now at a bar of similar calibre? And what about the 1960's and 1950's and even earlier? What was the price of a single beer at a bar at various points between 1939 and the present? What was the price of a shot of whiskey, or a single mixed drink, as it continued to rise over that same period of time? But I think we need to keep the focus on what we can actually know historically. Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3219. . . . . . . . . . . . First editon covers From: dpmoose69 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2006 9:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Bill T. thought you might me able to help me out. I am working with a member that is trying to restore a first edition third printing of the big book. He has askied if I can replicate the front cover and spine lettering and create a black and white image of it. I am looking for either actual scans of the cover, the font name or style, or anything that would help. I appreciate any and all feedback. dpdave@cox.net dave h IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3220. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "burning desire", Chants From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2006 9:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A couple of comments from Jim S. and Tommy H. ______________________________ Comment from: "Jim S." (james.scarpine at verizon.net) Arsonists have burning desires. ______________________________ Comment from: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) Responding to Message 3211 from (ricktompkins at comcast.net), where Rick said: {"It Works If You Work It!" is part of our ever-longer chants that follow a meeting closing... From my own experience, this "gospel shout" comes from treatment centers and nowhere else, and it took hold in AA in the early 1990s.} The chants are moving, and are now starting to occur, not just at the end, but also to "How It Works" at the beginning. A couple of years ago people started chanting the last line of How It Works, "God could and would, if He were sought," to the immense annoyance of a number of people. My wife, who moved here from NYC last year said the chant is common there. I think treatment centers started it to see who was still awake. Rick (who lives in Illinois) also said: {"Does anyone have a 'burning desire' to share" or "to add more thoughts" is a normal question a meeting chair can ask before closing an AA meeting. I still hear it a lot.} More than once a chair has said, "People with burning desires need to see their urologist." Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3221. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. From: Charlene C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/26/2006 9:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Charlene C." (ccp28para4 at yahoo.com) IIdog wrote: (IIdog at prodigy.net) ##I am looking for information on Dr. Paul Oehlinger. His story is in the third and fourth edition of the Big Book. The same story with different titles. I appreciate any information on this. Thank you, Jane B.## You can listen to Dr. Paul O.'s talk on-line. Go to xa-speakers (The Lights Are On) at http://www.xa-speakers.org/ then to aa-alcoholics anonymous, then to single speakers. Dr. Paul's is on page 24. C. Cook ______________________________ From: Tammy Cook (tomatolcook at yahoo.com) Wendi Turner wrote: (wenditurner at earthlink.net) ##In the stories in the back of the book, the wonderful story of Dr. Paul O. published in the 3rd ed "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" (BB3 439-452u)... and in the 4th ed as "Acceptance was the answer." At the end of his story, i believe in the second to last paragraph... he speaks of knowing that at any given moment, God's will for him is simply the "Next right action."## I like the saying too Wendi. It helped me to not feel so overwhelmed in the beginning...still helps sometimes too. ______________________________ From: "Joe Nugent" (joe-gent at sympatico.ca) Dr. Paul O. was what I call an elder statesman. Joe IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3222. . . . . . . . . . . . History and Archives Gathering June 24 2006 From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/24/2006 9:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There will be a Multi-District History and Archives Gathering on June 24 2006 location to be negotiated but between Harrisburg PA and Lebanon PA, from about 8:30 a.m. to about 3:30 p.m. This will be like the Gatherings held in Summerdale PA April 2003 and Elizabethtown PA June 2004. (We skipped a year for the International.) We have invited AA historians Glenn C. and Mitch K. We are also inviting other historians, and hope to have exhibits from the Philadelphia Intergroup Archives, the Maryland Archives, and the Northern New Jersey Archives, at least, along with a speaker from GSO. We expect Chet H. (DLD 4/4/49) to be in attendance, and hope for other 50+ oldtimers. No charge for attending. Keep the date free if you can, and come if you can. -- Jared Lobdell __________________________________ A note from the moderator: At the very beginning, AA developed around two major centers: (1) Akron, Cleveland, and that area of the upper midwest clustering around the western Great Lakes. (2) That area on the eastern seaboard which had New York City at its center, but involved people from that entire part of the eastern seaboard. Eastern Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New Jersey were all part of that early eastern AA center, so Jared's history and archives gathering should be of more than simply regional interest, on those grounds alone. Also Mitchell K. is our expert on early Cleveland AA, which was a key part of the other early AA center. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana (see map at http://hindsfoot.org/contact.html) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3223. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First edition covers From: Rob . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/27/2006 10:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The best place I've found to get Big Book dust jackets is http://www.dustjackets.org/. They have replica dust jackets for all printings of the first, second, and third edition. Rob ______________________________ From: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) This is exactly the kind of work that Bob W. (archivist from Little Rock, Arkansas) is involved in... I've misplaced his contact info. Can anyone else provide it? My email address is (cm53 at earthlink.net) -cm ______________________________ From: "Gallery Photography" (gallery5 at mindspring.com) If it were me, I wouldn't touch it. If he wants a good usable book, go buy a new one. Take that book and put it in a glass box. Rotax Steve IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3224. . . . . . . . . . . . Ester and the Texas Preamble From: silkworthdotnet . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/27/2006 2:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Grapevine, February, 2001 Texas Preamble: A few months after the Grapevine published the Preamble in June, 1947, Ollie L., Dick F., and Searcy W. decided to beef it up for the drunks in Texas. "We worked on it, passed it around, and agreed on this version, " says Searcy W. "It's now read by groups throughout the state." It works for Searcy. He's been sober 54 years. For all who would be interested in it: ------------------------------------- Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are powerless over alcohol, and are unable to do anything about it without the help of a Power greater than ourselves. We feel each person's religious convictions, if any, are his own affair, and the simple purpose of the program of AA is to show what may be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves, regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be. In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do to that Power, we must first apply ourselves with some diligence, but repetition confirms and strengthens this habit, then faith comes naturally. We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from a serious disease for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may be the result of an allergic reaction to alcohol which makes it impossible for us to drink in moderation. This condition has never, by any treatment with which we are familiar, been permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute abstinence - a second meaning of AA. There are no dues or fees. The only requirement is an honest desire to stop drinking. Each member is a person with an acknowledged alcoholic problem who has found the key to abstinence from day to day by adhering to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. The moment he resumes drinking he loses all status as a member of AA. His reinstatement is automatic, however, when he again fulfills the sole requirement for membership - an honest desire to quit drinking. Not being reformers we offer our experience only to those who want it. AA is not interested in sobering up drunks who are seeking only temporary sobriety. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and in which we join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are those who will not or cannot lend themselves to this simple program-- usually men and women who are incapable of being honest with themselves. You may like this Program or you many not, but the fact remains that is works.. and we believe it is our only chance to recover. There is a vast amount of fun included in the AA fellowship. Some people may be shocked at our apparent worldliness and levity, but just underneath there is a deadly earnestness and a full realization that we must put first things firs. With each of us the first thing is our alcoholic problem. Faith must work twenty-four hours a day in and through us, or we perish. with gratitude, Jim M IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3225. . . . . . . . . . . . stepping stones From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2006 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in Bedford Falls NY (just above NYC) where Bill and Lois lived from 1941 on. It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly interested in AA history. They have done a marvelous job of keeping it in exactly the same condition it was when Bill and lois lived there (Lois' glasses are where she left them in the kitchen). What a treasure trove of history! You can sit at the kitchen table that Ebby and Bill sat at in Clinton street when Bill pushed a drink over to him and Ebby announced " I got religion". You can stand in the living room where Marty Mann and Bill formed Council that would become the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence . You can sit at the desk where Bill wrote the Big Book and the 12 and 12. You can see the map filled with stick pins where Bill measured the progress of new groups across the country. You can sit and gaze out the window that he looked out when contemplating how he would respond to the hundreds of questions coming in from all over the country about how to start a meeting etc. The best part - its largely undiscovered by the masses. You can get a quiet visit with a volunteer tour guide and take your time to savor each part. It is the most important collection of AA artifacts and history anywhere. I have been to East Dorset (birthplace, childhood home, gravesite) I have been to Akron. (Dr Bob's house, Mayflower Hotel) Bedford Falls is the Mother Lode. www.steppingstones.org they are having a big picnic on June 3 if you like a crowd, but I recommend you go when its quiet and no one else is there. Rob White Baltimore 410 328 8549 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3226. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant March Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2006 7:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII March 1936 - AA had 10 members staying sober. At end of 1936 A.A. had 15 members. March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Works Publishing Inc established to support writing and printing of the book. March 1940 - Mort J. came to LA from Denver; started custom of reading Chapter 5 Big Book at Cecil group. March 1941 - Second printing of Big Book. March 1941 - 1st Prison AA Group formed at San Quentin. March 1946 - The March of Time film is produced by NY AA office. March 1949 - Dr. Bob considers idea of AA conference premature. March 1951 - American Weekly publishes memorial article for Dr. Bob. March 1, 1939 - Readers Digest fails to write article on AA. March 1, 1941 - Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article published and membership jumped from 2,000 to 8,000 by years end. March 3 1947 - Nell Wing started work at Alcoholic Foundation 415 Lexington Avenue. March 4, 1891 - Lois W is born. March 5, 1945 - Time Magazine reports Detroit radio broadcasts of AA members. (Archie T?) March 7, 1940 -- Bill and Lois visited the Philadelphia AA group. March 7, 1941 -- Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted to get well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury St., at 8 PM Wednesdays. March 9, 1941 - Wichita Beacon reports AA member from NY who wants to form a group in Wichita. March 10, 1944 - New York Intergroup was established. March 11, 1949 - The Calix Society, an association of Roman Catholic alcoholics who are maintaining their sobriety through participation in Alcoholics Anonymous, was formed in Minneapolis by five Catholic AA members. March 14, - South Orange, NJ, AA group held an anniversary dinner with Bill W as guest speaker March 15, 1941 - 1st AA group formed in New Haven, Connecticut. Not reported in paper until Oct 1, 1941. March 16, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation and Works Publishing move from Newark to 30 Vesey St in lower Manhattan. First headquarters of our own. March 21, 1881 - Anne R, Dr Bobs wife, is born. March 21 1966 - Ebby dies. March 22, 1951 - Dr William Duncan Silkworth dies at Towns Hospital. March 22, 1984 - Clarence S, "Home Brewmeister", dies. March 23, 1936 - Bill and Lois visit Fitz M, "Our Southern Friend", in Maryland. March 25, 1898 -- Jim B ("The Vicious Cycle") was born. March 25, 2005 - Nancy Olson, Founder of AAHL- See Memorial at: http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html March 29, 1943 -- The Charleston Mail, WV, reported on Bill W's talk at St. John's Parish House. March 31, 1947 - 1st AA group formed in London, England. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3227. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Paul O. From: Executive Editor . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/2/2006 1:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Paul commented on the title of the story when interviewed in the Grapevine. The story was originally published in the GV as "Bronze Moccasins" and changed when reprinted in the Big Book. The interview is in the GV's Digital Archive and in The Best of Grapevine. Cordially, Robin Bromley IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3228. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2006 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Paul has written a few books, Contact Sabrina Publishing at 800-booklog in Laguna Miguel, CA. Diz T. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3229. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/28/2006 6:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charlene, I met Dr Paul in Ogden Utah in the early 90s. The story (much shorter) was originally titled the Bronze Moccasins and ran in the Grapevine. It was later expanded for inclusion to the Big Book, and someone (possibly a Grapevine editor) renamed the story Doctor, Alcoholic, Adict. Paul didn't mind at first, but as time passed, some of our fellowship would point to the title of his story and say things like "it talks about drugs in the Big Book" or "you have to let me talk about drugs, it's in the book." That botherd him. Paul did not want the title of his story to be a source of controversy. It was renamed in the fourth editon to "Acceptance was the Answer." I was at a area workshop when the first box of fourth edition Big Books came to town and were uncrated. Everyone got a copy. It didn't take long for people to realize that their favorite passage in the story "Acceptance was the Answer" was moved from 449 to 417. I could almost hear a cry from coast to coast. Imagine, refusing to buy the 4th edition because you could not accept the page change of your favorite passage on Acceptance. A paradox of twisted thinking. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3230. . . . . . . . . . . . Price of things since 1935... From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/1/2006 3:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, not much of an AA historian here, although I am learning a lot from this site, but as a reference librarian I would suggest an excellent resource for information re the question of a dollar in the basket and prices of things would be "The Value of a dollar: 1860-1999," a reference book most academic and larger public libraries would have. For example, in the 1935-1939 section, a pound of coffee was 26 cents. In the 1940-44 section it is noted that a fifth of Seagrams blended whiskey was $2.70 (coffee was cheaper actually, 24 cents a lb.) 1945-49, coffee was up to 31 cents a lb. In 1950- 54, coffee was 77 cents a lb., 93 cents in 1955-59... If we take the late '60s as a benchmark, since that is apparently how long the buck in the basket has been the stock donation, coffee had actually dropped, to 85 cents a lb. A keypunch operator might make $85 a week, or a typist $90. A 6 pack of Shlitz was 99 cents, and, well, I could go on but I won't ;-) Obviously the pegging of the standard donation at a dollar for so long is totally in defiance of economic common sense when you think of inflation. A sponsee of mine has a nice solution to this - he gets $2 bills at the bank, expressly to make his donation with in meetings! "Keep on truckin" Michael Corbett, BCHS class of '74 ______________________________ From the moderator: It seems to me that, on the basis of Michael Corbett's and Tom White's and Bruce Lallier's information, "a dollar in the basket" goes back to the late 1960's or early 1970's. This was in fact roughly the cost of a mixed drink at a good bar at that time. If we compare the cost of beer and shots of whiskey and bottles of decent liquor then, with prices now, it seems to me that 3 to 4 dollars in the basket would be the appropriate amount. Of course, if somebody wants to fine tune it, and count out exactly $3.67 (or something like that) into the basket, I suppose that person could do so. Putting just small change into the basket, as they did in the 1930's, 40's, and 50's would have made sense too, if we used the price of a drink as the standard. So it looks like the place where U.S. members started living in economic fantasy was during the 1980's (and all the way down to the present). This is something which is much more important for AA's survival than worrying about chants at the end of meetings, or minor changes in the Big Book, or a lot of the other things like that. Among other things, it has forced the New York GSO to start functioning as a profit making publishing business (with all the distortions this has produced) because the membership has forgotten that "fully self supporting, declining outside contributions" means that we are supposed to come up with the money to support the New York office, not force it to sell books in order to survive. And this also applies to intergroup offices and other necessary things. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) ______________________________ From: Tom White Glenn and Kimball: I think I can dredge up a few memories of drinking in the 50s. I sobered up in 59. "Nice" bars or "lounges" in NYC were one thing, but if you were drinking on the cheap, which I usually did, a glass (not a bottle) of tap beer was still a dime at a White Rose in NYC in 59, I'm pretty sure, and it had been right through my 13 years of state- side drinking after I got home from the Navy in 46. I think a bottle may have been 35 cents (again, cheap bars or grocery stores). You could get a shot of bar whiskey, a rye like White Feathers, for a quarter (or could it have been 50 cents?). Prices went up from there as you went "uptown," but it seems to me that in my first AA meetings coins were still quite acceptable. I don't remember when the thing became a standard one buck, but it sure has been hard to budge it away from that. The price of a drink seems to have been the control, after all, except that now it ought to be seen as more than a buck. But then we have Bill's remark (was it not?) that sober alcoholics are tighter than the bark on a tree. In our quite small group in Odessa, Texas, we do seem to have the members trained to do $2.00. Tom White Kimball wrote: I remember when I first started coming around (1976), the oldtimers said "toss in the cost of a drink" You could get a good stiff drink for a buck in 1976. ______________________________ From: "Bruce Lallier" When I came in in 71 we put a quarter in, seems like it went from a quarter to a dollar without stopping in between. I also heard some of the oldtimes at that time saying it was a one time said "if you have it put it in, if you need it take it out." Wonder how that would go over today. Bruce, a Connecticut transplant in Conneaut lake Pa ______________________________ From: John Lee Followup to Glenn: When talking about the Big Book at a meeting, I sometimes indicate to the newcomers that they can get one "for the price of a double margarita." I agree with your reminders to supply historical evidence on this board, not just conjecture or associations. Not just "my sponsor told me or my therapist told me." Isn't there something in Pass It On about how Bill would pass the hat at Clinton Street, and never get aper money [only change]? john lee member pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3231. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2006 10:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 12:13 3/2/2006 , Robin Bromley wrote: >Dr. Paul commented on the title of the story when interviewed in the >Grapevine. The story was originally published in the GV as "Bronze >Moccasins" and changed when reprinted in the Big Book. The interview is in >the GV's Digital Archive and in The Best of Grapevine. >Cordially, I got out my copy of the May 1975 Grapevine and compared the story "Bronzed Moccasins" to the story "Doctor, Addict, Alcoholic" in the Third Edition Big Book. [Note the correct title of the story.] There are the same number of paragraphs and the first sentence of each paragraph is the same in both volumes. What changes, except the title for the story in the Four Edition are you referring to? I found an interview of him in the July 2001 GV but it doesn't mention the original title of the article. What article are you referring to? I like the original title much better than the current one, but that is just my two cents. Tommy H in Baton Rouge . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3232. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: stepping stones From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2006 8:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just a couple of points.... When I visited with Lois about 3 months before she passed on there were no glasses in the kitchen just as there were no glasses in the kitchen when I visited there soon after she passed on. Maybe I'm losing my memory (I do know my short-term is severely damaged) but can someone refresh it about Bill and Marty starting what was to become the National Council in the livingroom As far as "THE" table.... it has been reported that there are a few "THE" tables where Bill and Ebby met. As far as the desk in the study on the hill being "THE" desk where the Big Book was written... I've sat at that desk many a time and it wouldn't fit in the office in the Newark office and I someone will have to fill me in if BandL stored the Clinton St. furniture or took it with them on all their moves. Another thing.... it cannot be classified as "It is the most important collection of AA artifacts > and history anywhere." I'm tickled pink that you enjoyed yourself so much at Stepping Stones. I wish more members of the Fellowship would have your interest in our history. However... we must temper historical fact with legend. Hey, I may be totally off base... > I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in > Bedford Falls NY (just above NYC) where Bill and > Lois lived from 1941 on. > It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly > interested in AA history. > > They have done a marvelous job of keeping it in > exactly the same condition it was when Bill and lois > lived there (Lois' glasses are where she left them > in the kitchen). > > What a treasure trove of history! > > You can sit at the kitchen table that Ebby and Bill > sat at in Clinton street when Bill pushed a drink > over to him and Ebby announced " I got religion". > You can stand in the living room where Marty Mann > and Bill formed Council that would become the > National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence . > You can sit at the desk where Bill wrote the Big > Book and the 12 and 12. > You can see the map filled with stick pins where > Bill measured the progress of new groups across the > country. > You can sit and gaze out the window that he looked > out when contemplating how he would respond to the > hundreds of questions > coming in from all over the country about how to > start a meeting etc. > > The best part - its largely undiscovered by the > masses. You can get a quiet visit with a volunteer > tour guide and take your time to savor each part. > > It is the most important collection of AA artifacts > and history anywhere. > > I have been to East Dorset (birthplace, childhood > home, gravesite) > I have been to Akron. (Dr Bob's house, Mayflower > Hotel) > Bedford Falls is the Mother Lode. > > www.steppingstones.org > > they are having a big picnic on June 3 if you like a > crowd, > but I recommend you go when its quiet and no one > else is there. > > Rob White > Baltimore > 410 328 8549 > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3233. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: stepping stones From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/6/2006 10:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 14:51 3/1/2006 , Rob White wrote: >I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in Bedford Falls NY (just >above NYC) where Bill and Lois lived from 1941 on. >It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly interested in AA history. I believe the name of the town is Bedford Hills. Tommy H in Baton Rouge . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3234. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: stepping stones From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 1:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dave and I never heard that discussions about Marty's founding the National Council on Alcoholism started at Stepping Stones. Wherever Marty and Bill talked, whether at the AA office, over lunch, or out at Stepping Stones - or all three - Marty certainly tossed around her plans with Bill and Lois since Bill was her AA sponsor and she and the Wilsons were close personal friends. However, we do know that he threw cold water on the whole idea, saying she was unqualified for such a venture. She went ahead, anyway, since she was being encouraged by other strong advisers, and besides was being driven by a dream she had multiple gifts for fulfilling. Later, of course, Bill and Dr Bob both joined her Advisory Board for a while. And as Marty's vision became a successful reality over the decades, Bill changed his mind and enthusiastically supported her efforts and achievements in dramatically expanding AA's membership and influence as well as in educating our country as a whole about alcoholism. Marty's biography (see below) contains many hitherto unreported facts about AA history. Dave and I tried hard to write only what could be verified and attributed to sources. We are very grateful to other writers of AA and recovery history before us who set high historical standards. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3235. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: stepping stones From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 7:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > >> Just a couple of points.... > someone will have to > fill me in if BandL stored the Clinton St. furniture or > took it with them on all their moves. Hi Mitch, We are ever seeking the details. According to the diary they put the furniture into storage when they left 182. Recall that they moved directly into the Parkhurst 344 N. Fullerton, Montclair home from there and for the next six or seven Sundays the regular meeting was held there begining on May 14, 1939 if my memory is correct. At that time there was only one meeting at most per night for the entire Eastern United States. The meetings began at 4:00 and went most of the night. They rotated speakers for the first portion according to Jim Burwell who was probably living at Hank and Kathleen's home as well at that time. They were mostly quite broke from the book which had just arrived in final form the month before. However these were dinner meetings with Herb T. paying for a "big spread". The wive's always attended these along with their spouse's. At that meeting they voted in the Bill and Lois Home replacement fund and each pledged different amounts of which none of them paid more than a few months. They wrote up a document with this information which is in the GSO archives. Marty was still a Blythewood Sanatarium patient and she took the train to the meeting from CT. to NJ. (Bill and Lois were doing an errand when they voted this Home Replacement Fund in - they arrived shortly thereafter and Lois wrote in her diary that they were thrilled. Very shortly thereafter Hank and Kathleen became estranged, probably after Kathleen found out about his proposal to Ruth. Hank moved to East Orange, 50 Beech St. I believe. His mail went to West Orange. By June 21st Kathleen was moving out. And Lois helped her move her furniture to a specifically named individuals house who I'd have to look up. In her long diary entry that day she never said a word about her own furniture. Immediately they were offered the Green pond bungalow by the family of Horace C. (note there was a Horace G. member too at that time.) His family owned the mammouth international shipping firm of Moore McCormick if I remember correctly. Green Pond was in the remote wilderness and Lois loved it. The diary entries from that time, many of which are in LR, are the longest and happiest of that first 5 year period. LR leaves you with the impression that when they left there shortly thereafter it was for good. In fact, it was only rented for a very short time and they lived there often during the next few years gradually moving into the NYC clubhouse when that became an option. Much time was spent with Bob and Mag V. at their farmhouse in Bog Hollw near Monsey, NY. They both seemed more drawn to the country than the city. SS is certainly that. The Best to You and Your Wife Mitch, -merton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3236. . . . . . . . . . . . Stepping Stones, Bedford Hills From: rriley9945@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 12:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Tommy H. in Baton Rouge, in Message 3233: Stepping Stones is in Bedford Hills, not Bedford Falls. ______________________________ From: rriley9945@aol.com For you movie fans, Bedford Falls is the name of the town in the holiday classic It's a Wonderful Life starring James Stewart. ______________________________ From: "johnlawlee" The town is Bedford Hills, not Bedford Falls. The latter is the mythical setting for the Jimmy Stewart classic movie, "It's a Wonderful Life." Incidently, Bill and Lois' house is in Katonah, not Bedford Hills. Kotonah is the next town. The postal addresses must have changed since Bill lived there. I searched the streets of Bedford Hills for an hour, looking for the house. It's not there. I received a nice private tour from a staff member. john lee pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3237. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. From: Cloydg . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 9:01:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the AA Archives that's accessable over the Internet, Dr. Paul did an interview. He explained where he was at that time in his life and how he felt about his article, "Bronze Moccasins". Then he speaks about his story being included into the BB under the title, "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict", and the ensuing problems he encountered. My question is: Does the AA interview appear to say that in his view, alcoholics can and do become dually addicted but addicts seldom become alcoholic?" Also, did it appear to anyone else that he was attempting to make an apology to AA for writing his article? In love and service, Clyde G. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3238. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Paul O. on acceptance From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 11:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3239. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Price of things since 1935... From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/7/2006 4:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Care should be exercised in defining the basis used for comparing dollar amounts over time, particularly in considering the long-term effects of inflation. It is useful to convert past dollar amounts to show the equivalent buying power in current dollars. This is easily accomplished by using Consumer Price Index (CPI) conversion factors. CPI conversion data can be obtained on-line from Professor Robert C Sahr, Political Science Dept, Oregon State U, Corvalis http://oregonstate.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/cv2005.pdf The "quantity" of past dollars amounts can erroneously be viewed as the "value" of past dollar amounts. An amount expressed in 1940 dollars can erroneously be viewed as less expensive than 2005 dollars when in fact the 1940 value is substantially more expensive. Consider the $3.50 selling price of the Big Book when it was first published in April 1939. $3.50 in 1939 dollars would be the equivalent value of $49.30 in 2005 dollars. The Big Book was a rather expensive book for its time. That's the reason it was printed on such large and thick paper and got the name "Big Book" (the idea was to convince the alcoholics that they were getting their money's worth). The Summer/Fall 2005 catalog of Conference-approved literature shows that a hard cover Big Book can be purchased for $6. You can also erroneously conclude that this is almost twice the cost of what the Big Book sold for in 1939. In fact the 2005 Big Book price actually represents only 12% of what a Big Book sold for in 1939 (i.e. a nearly 90% price reduction). As best as I can determine, groups and members were first asked to make direct contributions to what is today GSO in March 1941 when Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article was published. The publicity caused 1941 membership to jump from around 2,000 to 8,000. The article led to over 6,000 appeals for help to be mailed to the NY Office to handle. The NY office asked groups to donate $1 ($13.33 in 2005 dollars) per member, per year, for support of the office. This began the practice of financing the NY office operations from group donations (re the Service Manual, page S7). Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small. The same goes for each group trying to donate to their Central Office, District, Area and GSO - just try to donate something no matter how small (it does have a tendency to add up over time). Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3240. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s 1966 Letter From: Carter Elliott . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/8/2006 6:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As Bill Sees It contains thirty-one entries sourced to "Letter, 1966". Do we know if this letter was a single, philosophical essay or letters collected from his general correspondence? Carter E.; Blacksburg BA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3241. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator gone March 11-17 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 12:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The moderator will not be available from Saturday March 11 to Friday March 17. If you could hang onto your messages until the 17th, it would be greatly appreciated. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator South Bend, Indiana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3242. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance From: JNP in Maine . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 12:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, Someone once told me that in a conversation with Dr Paul he stated that acceptance was not the answefr and he had made that statement before he had taken the steps as they were laid out in the Big Book Joe Pet Orono, Maine Cheryl F wrote: I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3243. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance From: Azor521@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 10:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 3/10/06 8:49:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, learning3legacies@cox.net writes: paragraph about acceptance I met Dr. Paul O. at a speaker meeting in Modesto, CA @ 1993 and while we were at dinner he made it clear he didn't get acceptance out of the blue. He had to work for it and suggested we read his entire story to get the full perspective of his life in recovery to that point. He and his wife Max seemed like loving and caring people grateful for their recovery. Love and Huggs to all............ Floyd J [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3244. . . . . . . . . . . . Doctor Bob''s nightmare From: Rob . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 3:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where this changed? It would be most appreciated. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3245. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance From: wilfried antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 2:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I will only quote part of the article in the July 1995 Grapevine: GV: Is there anything you regret having written in your story? Dr. Paul: Well, I must say I'm really surprised at the number of people who come up to me and ask me confidentially if what they've heard on the very best authority - usually from their sponsor - is true: that there are things in my story I want to change, or that I regret having written it, or that I want to take it out because it says so much about drugs, or that I've completely changed my mind that AA is the answer or even that acceptance is the answer. I've also heard - on the best authority. -that I've died or gotten drunk or on pills. The latest one was that my wife Max died and that I got so depressed I got drunk. So, is there anything I'd like to change? No. I believe what I said more now than when I wrote it. This was taken out of context- the whole article should be available in the Grapevine digital archives. wil ----- Original Message ----- From: Cheryl F To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:06 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Paul O. on acceptance I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3246. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance From: Charles Knapp . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 8:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Group Living in Southern California I was able to listen to Dr Paul often. He always spoke in my area at least 3 or 4 times a year. On several occasions I Heard him say he thought there other things in his story that was just as important as that one paragraph. For instance he thought the part about him and his wife Max getting well together in AA was better than that paragraph. Personally I like the next to the last paragraph which reads: "Acceptance is the key to my relationship with God today. I never just sit and do nothing while waiting for Him to tell me what to do. Rather, I do whatever is in front of me to be done, and I leave the results up to Him; however it turns out, that's Gods will for me." I believe of all the speakers I have been able to listen to from So Cal over the past 15 years I miss hearing Dr Paul the most. Thanks Charles from California -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Cheryl F Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:07 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Paul O. on acceptance I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3247. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Price of things since 1935... From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/10/2006 1:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was encouraged to participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket. The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings and has forgone collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become established. Fiona D On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote: > Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking > members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition > collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there > are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be > left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be > for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small. Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource. Arkie IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3248. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Price of things since 1935... From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2006 7:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In meetings around here, I've noticed the chairperson stating that newcomers, visitors and those currently in a hospital or treatment center (in patient), need not contribute. Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 > From: Arkie Koehl > Reply-To: > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:40:48 -1000 > To: > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Price of things since 1935... > > My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was encouraged to > participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket. > The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings and has > forgone collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become > established. > > Fiona D > > > On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote: > >> Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking >> members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition >> collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there >> are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be >> left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be >> for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small. > > Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from > treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there > is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are > sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put > nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected > to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the > state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource. > > Arkie > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3249. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Doctor Bob''s nightmare From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2006 9:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 14:32 3/10/2006 , Rob wrote: >hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and >it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd >printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years >have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where >this changed? It would be most appreciated. I checked my Third Editions and printings number 1 thru 8 state "six years" and 9 on state "four years." This is on p. 180. I checked several Second Editions and they all said "six years" as did the two First Editions I have, but the statement was on p. 192 of the Firsts. The question of why this change was effected was discussed at some point in the recent past on our list. I remember reading it but am not confident enough in my memory to quote and I can't find the post. Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3250. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Doctor Bob''s nightmare From: Carolyn W . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/13/2006 10:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mark, I looked in my copy of the 3rd edition of the BB. and it says ' four years '. Carol ----- Original Message ----- From: To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:32 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Doctor Bob's nightmare hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where this changed? It would be most appreciated. SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3251. . . . . . . . . . . . Universal Mind From: wbmscm . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2006 8:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I hope this question is not beyond the purpose of this list, but Got any info. on Bill using the term "Universal Mind" in his story. The term caught my eye because it's capitalized. I searched the archives and didn't come up with anything ( I may have missed it), googled the term, with some success (seems origin may be from Hindu), but any info. re: Bill using it would fulfill my curiousity. Peace, Wendy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3252. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sauerkraut remedy From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/14/2006 4:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently revisited this as a result of picking up a pamphlet from Dr. Bob's Home which had his last talk to the Cleveland A.A. Conference on July 30, 1950. It quotes him as saying "sauerkraut and cold meadow." This talk is in the June '73 Grapevine. The September '73 GV addresses "cold meadow" and concludes "And then one dear reader sent us a length of tape, much better than ours, on which it all came out quite clearly, "sauerkraut and cold tomatoes." This was confirmed by a second reader in a letter from England." Tommy in Baton Rouge At 16:26 1/31/2006 , Peggy Anna wrote: >I have a book written in 1993 by Don Julio DeMedici Santaleone, entitled >"The James Connection or Sauerkraut, Tomatoes, and Karo Syrup" The author >has been a member of AA for over 20 years now and lives in Rochester, New >York. In his introduction he states "as related in Dr. Bob and the Good >Oldtimers (p 74) a detoxification treatment of a combination of tomatoes, >sauerkraut and Karo corn syrup was administered by Bill W. to Dr. Bob in >order to supply Bob with vitamins and energy so that Bob could perform >surgery". > >Peggy Anna >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Rich Foss" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:13 PM >Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sauerkraut remedy > > > > > > An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice > > treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with > > replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our > > literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob > > and > > the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's > > simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way > > out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut. > > Thanks. > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3253. . . . . . . . . . . . "Stump the Archivist" From: J. Carey Thomas . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2006 5:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Our Area has started a idea called "Stump the Archivist." The four questions below have come from attendees at our Area business weekends. I have tried the search capability of our site, but have not mastered its capabilities. Probably the answers to these *questions* are there, but I could use some help...! Here is the first batch of four questions we have been asked: JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle? When was the grapevine first published? In its present form? I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even some answers! _\|/_ (o o) -----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey---------- Carey Thomas Archivist, Area 15 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3254. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Crooked thinking From: Charlene C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/15/2006 1:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness. just a thought. C. Cook trixiebellaa wrote: hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3255. . . . . . . . . . . . William Y. "California Bill" take two From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2006 12:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On February 7th I posted the following but have not received any responses. I am hoping that someone has some information since the following is listed as a significant event in AA history: In Message 3129, "Significant February dates in A.A. History " http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3129 it says: Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem, NC. Who was William Y. "California Bill" and what is his significance in AA history? Thanks. Chris Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3256. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Price of things since 1935... From: meb_nosix . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2006 10:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Markle wrote: > > In meetings around here, I've noticed the chairperson stating that > newcomers, visitors and those currently in a hospital or treatment center > (in patient), need not contribute. > > Jon (Raleigh) > 9/9/82 > > > > From: Arkie Koehl > > Reply-To: > > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:40:48 -1000 > > To: > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Price of things since 1935... > > > > My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was encouraged to > > participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket. > > The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings and has > > forgone collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become > > established. > > > > Fiona D > > > > > > On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote: > > > >> Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking > >> members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition > >> collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there > >> are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be > >> left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be > >> for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small. > > > > Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from > > treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there > > is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are > > sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put > > nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected > > to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the > > state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource. > > > > Arkie > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure where these meetings are that you talk about but agree that those interested ina solution should listen to those that are able to offer one. Step 2 "Came to beleive that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" clearly states that we are insane till we have the essential personality change brought on by folowing the steps. Those not working the steps or new to the program are in no position to offer anything but the a deluded view of reality that has landed them there in the first place. I've been to many meetings while in early recovery and found til i completed the steps exactly as outlined in the big book i had no idea what i was talking about and basically stayed in the problem. Those interested in a solution and sick of living in the problem will be the ones that are happy to listen. God bless. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3257. . . . . . . . . . . . Are any AAHL''s going to Ireland From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2006 12:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 60th Anniversary of AA in Ireland will be celebrated in Cork Ireland next month at the All Ireland convention. Do any AAHL members plan to attend? Are there any AAHL members in Ireland besides Fiona D., who has most graciously agreed to show us County Mayo and the birthplace of Sister Ignatia ? also, There will be a closed meeting of the Archives Committee in Philadelphia, Pa at 444 N.3rd St 3rd floor at 1 PM on Saturday 3/18/06. We will play a videotape of Conor F (the man who took AA to Ireland/ Europe and Dr. Moore ( who provides Conor with Richard P.) the 1st man sober in Ireland. Because it is a videotape from 1982 it will be a closed meeting(for alcoholics only) The statement of anonymity will be read at the meeting Yours in Service, Shakey Mike G [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3258. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Crooked thinking From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2006 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I don't know whether you would consider this, it is just opinion and I have no evidence to back it up. But, Bill's use of recent historical events as part of his argument, such as the Titanic when it comes to the part "we are like passengers of a great liner." Would suggest that recent social/historical events were maybe in his mind, this said, then an employer may look on an alcoholic as a liability and not worth the investment in salvaging. Given that in recent memory the US has had a depression no shortage of willing workers; and the prohibition a moral judgment and one that may have increased in some way the numbers of alcoholics. Then the second world war intervened and ended the employment problem and gave the country a focus and unity. My question would be; how were employers inclined to think post war rather than pre war. God bless Dave it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness. just a thought. C. Cook trixiebellaa wrote: hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3259. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "Stump the Archivist" From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 12:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST > > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? seems like somewhere I've read something like "Usually, however, other people are involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr who would needlessly sacrifice others ..." So I'll let those who might choose to take Bill's inventory also consider making his amends. [isn't it odd how often we run across those willing to take someone else's inventory, but how seldom those same folks volunteer to do the amends steps?] > > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? Sister Ignatia was reportedly in the habit of giving out Sacred Heart tokens to those who 'graduated treatment' at St Thomas Hospital in Akron. As early as Jan 1947, in the Grapevine's "AA Country Wide News Circuit" column, it is noted that the Elmira, N. Y. Group used white-red-and-blue poker chips to note lengths of continuous sobriety. In May 1947, that same column mentions Tacoma Wash using white-yellow-red-and-blue chips. In Aug 1947, that column again mentions the use of a blue chip by the North Hollywood, Cal group. A later, 1955, article "In the Chips" noted the practice in Charlotte, NC with white-red-amber-green-and-blue chips. > > Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle? "Where" is on most all AAWS literature published, "when" would be from the 50's till 1993. > > When was the grapevine first published? In its present form? The first [oversized] issue is dated June 1944, then it was 'downsized' to it's present dimensions in Sept 1948. > > I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even > some answers! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3260. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/16/2006 8:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history. When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? Chips, Medallions and Birthdays The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the history on them. Sister lgnatia, the nun who helped Dr. Bob get the hospitalization program started at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron was the first person to use medallions in Alcoholics Anonymous. She gave the drunks who were leaving St. Thomas after a five day dry out a Sacred Heart Medallion and instructed them that the acceptance of the medallion signified a commitment to God, to A.A. and to recovery and that if they were going to drink, they had a responsibility to return the medallion to her before drinking. The sacred heart badges had been used prior to A.A. by the Father Matthew Temperance Movement of the 1840s and the Pioneers an Irish Temperance Movement of the 1890s. The practice of sobriety chips in A.A. started with a Group in Elmira, N.Y. in 1947 and has grown from there. The celebration of birthdays came from the Oxford Group where they celebrated the anniversary of their spiritual rebirth. As we have a problem with honesty, A.A. chose the anniversary of the date of our last drink. Early celebrations of birthdays resulted in people getting drunk and Dr. Harry Tiebout was asked to look at the problem and he commented on this phenomenon in an articled titled "When the Big "I" Becomes Nobody", (AAGV, Sept. 65) "Early on in A.A., I was consulted about a serious problem plaguing the local group. The practice of celebrating a year's sobriety with a birthday cake had resulted in a certain number of the members getting drunk within a short period after the celebration. It seemed apparent that some could not stand prosperity. I was asked to settle between birthday cakes or no birthday cakes. Characteristically, I begged off, not from shyness but from ignorance. Some three or four years later, A.A. furnished me the answer. The group no longer had such a problem because, as one member said, "We celebrate still, but a year's sobriety is now a dime a dozen. No one gets much of a kick out of that anymore." The AAGV carried many articles on chips and cakes and the following is a brief summary of some. Feb. 1948, Why All the Congratulations? "When we start taking bows (even on anniversaries) we bow ourselves right into the cuspidor." July, 1948. Group To Give Oscar for Anniversaries. The Larchmont Group of Larchmont, N.Y. gives a cast bronze camel mounted on a mahogany base to celebrate 1st., 5th and 10th anniversaries. "The camel is wholly emblematic of the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e., to live for 24 hours without a drink." August 1948. The Artesta, N.Mex. Group awards marbles to all members. If you are caught without your marbles, you are fined 25 cents. This money goes into the Foundation Fund. June 1953, We operate a poker chip club in the Portland Group (Maine). We have poker chips of nine colors of which the white represents the probation period of one month. If he keeps his white chip for one month he is presented with a red chip for one month's sobriety. The chips continue with blue for two months, black for three, green for four, transparent blue for five, amber for six, transparent purple for nine months and a transparent clear chip for one year. We have our chips stamped with gold A.A. letters. Also at the end of the year and each year thereafter, we present them with a group birthday card signed by all members present at the meeting. January 1955, Charlotte, N.C. "When a man takes "The Long Walk" at the end of a meeting, to pick up a white chip, he is admitting to his fellow men that he has finally accepted the precepts of A.A. and is beginning his sobriety. At the end of three months he exchanges his white chip for a red one. Later, a handsome, translucent chip of amber indicates that this new member has enjoyed six months of a new way of life. The nine month chip is a clear seagreen and a blue chip is given for the first year of sobriety. In some groups a sponsor will present his friend with an engraved silver chip, at the end of five years clear thinking and clean living. March 1956, The One Ton Poker Chip. Alton, Illinois. Author gave friend a chip on his first day eight years ago (1948) and told him to accept it in the spirit of group membership and that if he wanted to drink to throw the chip away before starting drinking. October 1956, Bangor Washington. Article about a woman who sits in a bar to drink the bartender sees her white chips and asks what it is. She tells him. He throws her out as he does not want an alcoholic in his bar. She calls friend. April 1957, Cape Cod, Mass. Group recognizes 1st, 5th and 15th anniversaries. Person celebrating leads meeting. Person is presented with a set of wooden carved plaques with the slogans. July 1957, New Brunswick, Canada. Birthday Board. Member contributes one dollar for each year of sobriety July 1957, Oregon. Person is asked to speak and is introduced by his or her sponsor. The wife, mother, sister or other relative brings up a cake. The Group sings Happy Birthday. The wife gives a two or thee minute talk. April 1959, Patterson, N.J. People are asked to give "three month pin talks." And that's a little bit of info on chips, cakes and medallions. Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle? It was introduced at the 20th Anniversary convention in St. Louis and registered as a trade mark in 1955. Bill had seen it during a visit to Norway and brought the idea back to the U.S. We have the symbols on the floor of one of the subway stations in Montreal. When was the grapevine first published? In its present form? The first issue of the GV was June 1944 in the form of a newspaper and it was 11X17 and 8 pages. It grew to 16 pages. In Spetember 1948 it was reduced to the present size. I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even some answers! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3261. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "Stump the Archivist" From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 12:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Carey Thomas Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:43 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Stump the Archivist" Our Area has started a idea called "Stump the Archivist." The four questions below have come from attendees at our Area business weekends. I have tried the search capability of our site, but have not mastered its capabilities. Probably the answers to these *questions* are there, but I could use some help...! Here is the first batch of four questions we have been asked: JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST To Area 15 From Area 65 Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? Bill W's mistress, Helen W, lived in New York at the time of their 15 year affair. Helen supposedly bought a home in Pleasantville, NY. She also became a Grapevine editor. Bill changed his will and royalty agreement with AA to make Helen the beneficiary of 10% of his royalties after he passed away. The most detailed information on her can be found in the book "Bill W' by Francis Hartigan. When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? Don't know. There would likely be too many locations claiming primacy on the matter to factually determine the matter conclusively. Sister Ignatia should be credited with starting the practice of giving alcoholics a sobriety token. She handed out Sacred Heart Badges to alcoholic patients leaving St Thomas Hospital in Akron, OH on the condition that they would return the badge to her prior to taking a first drink. See the book Sister Ignatia by Mary C Darrah. Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle? The logo first appeared on a large banner at AA's 2nd International Convention, and 10th Anniversary, in Kiel Auditorium, St Louis, MO, July 1-3, 1955. See "AA Comes of Age" pgs 49 and 139. When was the grapevine first published? In its present form? The August 1948 Grapevine announced that beginning September 1948, its format would be 5 1/2 x 7 1/2 inches and it would contain 32 pages. The change was based on a vote of subscribers. Early covers were kept simple, usually consisting of a grapevine sprig and a color background. Cheers Arthur I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even some answers! _\|/_ (o o) -----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey---------- Carey Thomas Archivist, Area 15 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3262. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Crooked thinking From: Jim Lynch . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 9:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The authors of our basic text make it clear earlier in the paragraph on page 140 that they have described fully the nature of the illness in chapters two and three, and suggest that the employer look there "If this presents difficulty,". The series of questions, of which the "crooked thinking" one is the final question, begins with the phrase, "If you concede that your employee is ill". I do not see anything new in this paragraph, rather it is restating some of the information from chapter 2 and 3 in different language. The chapter is written to help the employer see that "you may be suffering from an illness that only a spiritual experience will conquer." Jim an ex-problem drinker in Pittsburgh ----- Original Message ---- From: Charlene C. To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:57:04 PM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness. just a thought. C. Cook trixiebellaa wrote: hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3263. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Crooked thinking From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 11:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just the first paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written in the manner or with the intent that is often presumed in analyzing it (perhaps over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting it). The member who asked the question is using a form of reasoning that appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical gymnastics. It does little more than open the door to what can be an endless amount of speculation that serves more to distract rather than inform. Many Big Book chapters have a specific target audience (usually denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's employers. The underlying assumption that the importance of a sentence is somehow enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an early or later part of the book is a flawed assumption being treated as fact. The most popular, and perhaps important, portion of the Big Book, read at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How It Works." Trust me, there is no need to move this chapter further toward the beginning of the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on its own content as do all the other chapters. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlene C. Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness. just a thought. C. Cook trixiebellaa wrote: hi history lovers, Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol on his brain?" One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the chapters at the beginning of the book. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Tracy The Barking Big Book Study Group England SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3264. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: sbanker914@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 5:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 3/16/2006 4:34:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, jct3@juno.com writes: Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? I found the following from Nan Robertson's book: . . . quotes Nan Robertson, author of Getting Better: Inside Alcoholics Anonymous (1988), as follows: "Particularly during his sober decades in AA in the forties, fifties, and sixties, Bill Wilson was a compulsive womanizer. His flirtations and his adulterous behavior filled him with guilt, but he continued to stray off the reservation. His last and most serious love affair . . . began when he was in his sixties. She was important to him until the end of his life, and was remembered in a financial agreement with AA. (p. 36)" This last mistress, Helen W., actually received 1.5% of the royalties from the Big Book after Bill's death. As for Bill's wife, Lois, "she never mentioned his philandering," writes Robertson in this history of AA's founders. Susan Banker NYC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3265. . . . . . . . . . . . There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me From: David A Putnam . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 8:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo, Canned Heat and Shoe Polish. I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone enlightem me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is? Thanks, Dave P Westmont Illinois Monday Night Big Book Meeting IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3266. . . . . . . . . . . . medallions From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 10:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a taped interview with Jimmy D. (Sober since 1947, died 1999) of Portland, Maine, he told me that Arthur W. gave out medallions to his pigeons. He apparently started this practice in 1946 after the Portland Group (still going) got started. Jimmy donated his medallions to the archives. Arthur got these from a company called Bright Star Press which at the time was in Illinois and I believe moved to Texas. I am not saying that the practice of medallions started here, just that this is the earliest I have heard of it in Maine. I also had an old timer tell me that they used to give out nickels to make phone calls. lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3267. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/17/2006 10:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote: > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST > > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? > >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history. > > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? > >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays > > > > > >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of >the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the >history on them. > Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A. Tommy in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3268. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 3:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Bayzo" was a term first used during prohibition to describe someone who drank bay rum, because of its high alcohol content. Bay rum was used as an aftershave, and has that distinctive old school smell. _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David A Putnam Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:02 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] There' s Nothing The Matter With Me In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo, Canned Heat and Shoe Polish. I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone enlightem me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is? Thanks, Dave P Westmont Illinois Monday Night Big Book Meeting IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3269. . . . . . . . . . . . Sneaky Pete and Bayzo From: prpllady51 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 4:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sneaky Pete was slang for a pint bottle of cheap muscatel with grain alcohol added to pump up the proof to 40. It cost around 35 cents and was a flat bottle, which would fit in one's back pocket. Bayzo was the slang for Bay Rum. Bay rum was used as an aftershave. Jocelyn Parkway West Pittsburgh PA David A Putnam wrote: In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo, Canned Heat and Shoe Polish. I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone enlightem me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is? Thanks, Dave P Westmont Illinois Monday Night Big Book Meeting IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3270. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: medallions From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 8:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Lee wrote He apparently started this practice in 1946 after the Portland Group (still going) got started. Jimmy donated his medallions to the archives. Arthur got these from a company called Bright Star Press which at the time was in Illinois and I believe moved to Texas. Brigh Star's web site claims that they went into business in 1950. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3271. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Stump the Archivists From: Carter Elliott . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 8:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As Bill Sees It contains thirty-one entries sourced to "Letter, 1966". Do we know if this letter was a single, philosophical essay or letters collected from his general correspondence? Carter E., Blacksburg, VA --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3272. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: authorship of Chapter 10 From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/18/2006 12:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" wrote: > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just the first > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written in the manner or > with the intent that is often presumed in analyzing it (perhaps > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting it). > > The member who asked the question is using a form of reasoning that > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical gymnastics. It does > little more than open the door to what can be an endless amount of > speculation that serves more to distract rather than inform. > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target audience (usually > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's employers. > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a sentence is somehow > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an early or later part of > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as fact. > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion of the Big Book, read > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How It Works." Trust me, > there is no need to move this chapter further toward the beginning of > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on its own content as > do all the other chapters. > > Cheers > Arthur > > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlene C. > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking > > it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a > spiritual mallody or terminal illness. > > just a thought. > C. Cook > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always found that hard to believe, based on the contrast between the divergent styles of Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. Hank's story, "The Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled with elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected that Bill Wilson did the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank supplied many of the ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock shared a small office in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I don't see any language in Hank's story which is similar to the content or style of Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit for the contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred to William James as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James had been dead for decades when AA was founded. The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order for employers. They're asking employers to read the Big Book and use it to "12 step" their employees. I don't see any information in Chapter 10 which is inconsistent with the first five chapters. The intended audience was different. It's not a different message. john lee member pittsburgh > trixiebellaa wrote: > hi history lovers, > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has > been > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol > > on his brain?" > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the > chapters at the beginning of the book. > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks from Tracy > The Barking Big Book Study Group > England > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery > Alcoholics anonymous > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3273. . . . . . . . . . . . the spirit of rotation From: wilfried antheunis . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2006 2:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can any one say when this saying: "The spirit of rotation" came into use"? and is it and its usage documented? thanks. wil IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3274. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: medallions From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 1:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Bright Star's web site claims that they went into business in 1950." As a matter of information, Bright Star is still a good source of medallions. But, there is also the point that in the earliest days poker chips inscribed with one's sobriety date on it were used as signs of lengths of sobriety. Which might be why tokens/medallions are sometimes referred to as chips. tmd IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3275. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. - One Man''s Story - Recording Information Sought From: Steve Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 11:35:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey All, I recently got a copy of a recording that had no information with it other than the title "One Man's Story" Here's a few things that might help: West Coast Outside Bill thanks a Mayor Lois speaks early in the tape Ebby Speaks early Bill makes reference to it being the Sunrise of AA Thanks, Steven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3276. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: David Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/19/2006 5:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As Alcoholics Anonymous is "a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope," I'd have to say Bill W.'s life, the good, the bad and the ugly, is ALL a part of A.A. history, especially where it affected AAWS and it's legal agreements with him. Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for this group is quite good and uncovered the following: This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W. Of course, we have Art Sheehan's most recent post as well. These are purported copies of the actual will of Bill Wilson and mention : http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html and http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/heirs.htm. The relevant quote: "A. I give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his Will to take 10% royalties from his wife Lois and give those 10% to his mistress Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives me, a life interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If the said HELEN WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten percent (10%) of such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this Article FIRST." If anyone can corroborate the veracity of these documents OR disprove their veracity, I'd be most obliged. "We claim progress, not perfection." There is a desire among some AA history buffs to "sanitize" the progress and development of AA. When one begins to add up references to the "original message" and claiming only the first 164 pages (actually just the first 163 as p. 164 includes the line "We realize we only know but a little ....")are the "real" A.A., a trend towards fundamentalism and away from plurality can be seen. AA has helped me develop a personal relationship with a God loving and powerful enough to make use of even my defects of character. To acknowledge the humanness of AA's members, even it's founders, is also to come to appreciate the power of the principles of the program. L'Chaim! --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox wrote: > > At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote: > > > > > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST > > > > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? > > > >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history. > > > > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? > > > >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays > > > > > > > > > > > >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of > >the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the > >history on them. > > > > Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and > birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A. > > Tommy in Baton Rouge > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3277. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 2:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII David wrote As Alcoholics Anonymous is "a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope," I'd have to say Bill W.'s life, the good, the bad and the ugly, is ALL a part of A.A. history, especially where it affected AAWS and it's legal agreements with him. The agreement between Bill W. and the AAWS is no one's business but the officers of that corporation and the relatives of Bill W. Why can't members understand that. BTW, we share our experience, strength and hope in order that we may solve our common problem and help others to revover from alcoholism and not to delve into private business. Jim > > Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for > this group is quite good and uncovered the following: > > This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty > information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan > 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of > his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W. > > Of course, we have Art Sheehan's most recent post as well. > > These are purported copies of the actual will of Bill Wilson and > mention : http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html and > http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/heirs.htm. The relevant quote: "A. I > give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his Will to take 10% > royalties from his wife Lois and give those 10% to his mistress > Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives me, a life > interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If the said HELEN > WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten percent (10%) of > such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions > of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this Article FIRST." > > If anyone can corroborate the veracity of these documents OR disprove > their veracity, I'd be most obliged. > > "We claim progress, not perfection." There is a desire among some AA > history buffs to "sanitize" the progress and development of AA. When > one begins to add up references to the "original message" and claiming > only the first 164 pages (actually just the first 163 as p. 164 > includes the line "We realize we only know but a little ....")are the > "real" A.A., a trend towards fundamentalism and away from plurality > can be seen. > > AA has helped me develop a personal relationship with a God loving and > powerful enough to make use of even my defects of character. To > acknowledge the humanness of AA's members, even it's founders, is also > to come to appreciate the power of the principles of the program. > > L'Chaim! > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox > wrote: >> >> At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote: >> >> >> >> > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST >> > >> > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? >> > >> >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history. >> > >> > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? >> > >> >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different > parts of >> >the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some > of the >> >history on them. >> > >> >> Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and >> birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A. >> >> Tommy in Baton Rouge >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3278. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi David In regards to citing information from the AAHL archives please also include message 2933, subject: Bill W and Helen. ---------- Hi Merton Bill W, like any other human being, had his strengths and weaknesses. One of his weaknesses was reputedly a "fondness for the ladies." I am not out to demean Bill but we also should be careful not to elevate him to demigod status. The euphemism of "Founder's Watch" emanates from Francis Hartigan's book "Bill W" (re pg 192). Hartigan was told of it by Barry L (author of "Living Sober"). Hartigan reveals in detail Bill's relationship with his mistress Helen W. She was the woman for whom Bill changed his will and royalty agreement to bequeath her 10% of his book royalties. That had to be an excruciating embarrassment to Lois. Humans tend to be humans whether they are named Bill W or Bill Clinton or Dr Martin Luther King or John or Bobby Kennedy, etc., etc. Their human frailties should not diminish their extraordinary contributions to humanity. Cheers Arthur ---------- In the ('heirs.htm") web link that you reference in your message, download the PDF file that contains the last will and testament of Lois W (it should be W.pdf). It contains photo-copies of her actual will and relevant documents (as opposed to transcriptions). Bill's will and codicil are also contained in Lois W will. Cheers Again -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Johnson Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 4:14 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "Stump the Archivist" As Alcoholics Anonymous is "a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope," I'd have to say Bill W.'s life, the good, the bad and the ugly, is ALL a part of A.A. history, especially where it affected AAWS and it's legal agreements with him. Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for this group is quite good and uncovered the following: This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W. Of course, we have Art Sheehan's most recent post as well. These are purported copies of the actual will of Bill Wilson and mention : http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html and http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/heirs.htm. The relevant quote: "A. I give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his Will to take 10% royalties from his wife Lois and give those 10% to his mistress Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives me, a life interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If the said HELEN WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten percent (10%) of such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this Article FIRST." If anyone can corroborate the veracity of these documents OR disprove their veracity, I'd be most obliged. "We claim progress, not perfection." There is a desire among some AA history buffs to "sanitize" the progress and development of AA. When one begins to add up references to the "original message" and claiming only the first 164 pages (actually just the first 163 as p. 164 includes the line "We realize we only know but a little ....")are the "real" A.A., a trend towards fundamentalism and away from plurality can be seen. AA has helped me develop a personal relationship with a God loving and powerful enough to make use of even my defects of character. To acknowledge the humanness of AA's members, even it's founders, is also to come to appreciate the power of the principles of the program. L'Chaim! --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox wrote: > > At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote: > > > > > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST > > > > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami? > > > >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history. > > > > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups? > > > >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays > > > > > > > > > > > >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of > >the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the > >history on them. > > > > Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and > birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A. > > Tommy in Baton Rouge > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3279. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: the spirit of rotation From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 4:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Abby G (whose Big Book story is "He Thought He Could Drink Like a Gentleman") was an AA pioneer in Cleveland, OH. He is credited with instituting the practice and principle of rotation in stepping down from his position on the Cleveland Central Committee. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wilfried antheunis Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 1:24 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] the spirit of rotation Can any one say when this saying: "The spirit of rotation" came into use"? and is it and its usage documented? thanks. wil Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3280. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: authorship of Chapter 10 From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 7:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If one just takes a written story published in the Big Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is not doing diligent service to historical research. There are several letters written by Hank and other documents, including oral histories which give authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth, Clarence and others as well as my reading several letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to believe Hank was the author. --- johnlawlee wrote: > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" > > wrote: > > > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just > the first > > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. > > > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written > in the manner or > > with the intent that is often presumed in > analyzing it (perhaps > > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting > it). > > > > The member who asked the question is using a form > of reasoning that > > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical > gymnastics. It does > > little more than open the door to what can be an > endless amount of > > speculation that serves more to distract rather > than inform. > > > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target > audience (usually > > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's > employers. > > > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a > sentence is > somehow > > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an > early or later part > of > > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as > fact. > > > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion > of the Big Book, > read > > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How > It Works." Trust > me, > > there is no need to move this chapter further > toward the beginning > of > > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on > its own content > as > > do all the other chapters. > > > > Cheers > > Arthur > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Charlene C. > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking > > > > it would be my guess that employers are more > inclined to think in > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. > especially in that > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a > moral dilema than a > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness. > > > > just a thought. > > C. Cook > > > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of > > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always > found that hard > to believe, based on the contrast between the > divergent styles of > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. > Hank's story, "The > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled > with > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected > that Bill Wilson did > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank > supplied many of the > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock > shared a small office > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I > don't see any > language in Hank's story which is similar to the > content or style of > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit > for the > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred > to William James > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James > had been dead for > decades when AA was founded. > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order > for employers. > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and > use it to "12 step" > their employees. I don't see any information in > Chapter 10 which is > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The > intended audience was > different. It's not a different message. > john lee > member > pittsburgh > > trixiebellaa wrote: > > hi history lovers, > > > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be > appreciated that he has > > been > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by > the action of > alcohol > > > > on his brain?" > > > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such > an important piece > of > > > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of > perhaps one of > the > > chapters at the beginning of the book. > > > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks from Tracy > > The Barking Big Book Study Group > > England > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from > addiction > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction > recovery > > Alcoholics anonymous > > > > --------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > to: > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Mail > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > attachments. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3281. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: "Stump the Archivist" From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/20/2006 6:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To my knowledge and from the sources (other than Orange papers which got the info from aamo) I do believe these documents to be copies of the originals which are a matter of public record. --- David Johnson wrote: > As Alcoholics Anonymous is "a fellowship of men and > women who share > their experience, strength and hope," I'd have to > say Bill W.'s life, > the good, the bad and the ugly, is ALL a part of > A.A. history, > especially where it affected AAWS and it's legal > agreements with him. > > Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The > "search" function for > this group is quite good and uncovered the > following: > > This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger > post on royalty > information re: The Big Book. The author: Art > Sheehan > 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS > so that 10% of > his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine > Editor, Helen W. > > Of course, we have Art Sheehan's most recent post as > well. > > These are purported copies of the actual will of > Bill Wilson and > mention : > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html > and > http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/heirs.htm. The > relevant quote: "A. I > give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his > Will to take 10% > royalties from his wife Lois and give those 10% to > his mistress > Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives > me, a life > interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If > the said HELEN > WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten > percent (10%) of > such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance > with the provisions > of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this > Article FIRST." > > If anyone can corroborate the veracity of these > documents OR disprove > their veracity, I'd be most obliged. > > "We claim progress, not perfection." There is a > desire among some AA > history buffs to "sanitize" the progress and > development of AA. When > one begins to add up references to the "original > message" and claiming > only the first 164 pages (actually just the first > 163 as p. 164 > includes the line "We realize we only know but a > little ....")are the > "real" A.A., a trend towards fundamentalism and away > from plurality > can be seen. > > AA has helped me develop a personal relationship > with a God loving and > powerful enough to make use of even my defects of > character. To > acknowledge the humanness of AA's members, even it's > founders, is also > to come to appreciate the power of the principles of > the program. > > L'Chaim! > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox > > wrote: > > > > At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote: > > > > > > > > > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST > > > > > > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in > Miami? > > > > > >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do > with AA history. > > > > > > When and where did the poker chip tradition > start for the groups? > > > > > >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays > vary in different > parts of > > >the country and I thought it would be interesting > to look up some > of the > > >history on them. > > > > > > > Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, > and > > birthdays/anniversaries. They are local > traditions and not part of A.A. > > > > Tommy in Baton Rouge > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3282. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: authorship of Chapter 10 From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/21/2006 6:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > Mitchell: I stand by my earlier posting. The person who wrote "The Unbeliever" is not the person who wrote "To Employers". There is absolutely no overlap between the two, although they were both written in 1938 or early 1939. I don't believe you can point to a single phrase in "The Unbeliever" which supplies language/terms/style similar to that found in "To Employers"; for that matter, there is no language or phrasing in "The Unbeliever" which is similar to language or phrasing in any part of the Big Book. "The Unbeliever" is a farrago, a confused mess...staccato, almost hallucinatory style. "The Unbeliever" was not written by the person who wrote Chapter 10. On the other hand, every paragraph of Chapter 10 contains phrases found in other chapters of the basic text. As just one example, out of dozens I could give, pages 143-44 of Chapter 10 talk about the "subject matter" of this book. "It contains full suggestions by which the employee may solve his problem." Compare 143- 44 with the similar language found on page 45 of the earlier Chapter 4, about the "main object" of the book ["to find a Power...which will solve your problem"]. I'd be happy to go over Chapter 10 with you, line by line, and point out where phrases from Chapter 10 are used identically, elsewhere in the Big Book. The person who wrote Chapter 10 borrowed heavily from the other ten chapters of the Big Book. It defies belief that Hank wrote Chapter 10 in isolation. If Hank did in fact compose Chapter 10, he was a liberal plagiarist who copied Bill Wilson's exact language and writing style. Hank would have also completely changed his writing style and language in a six month period,and discarded all his ideas from his own story. The better view is that all eleven chapters of the Big Book were drafted by the same person. They were not written at all by the person who authored "The Unbeliever". I have no doubt that Hank claimed in Hank's correspondence that Hank authored Chapter 10. In a similar vein, Ebby Thatcher loved to refer to himself as a "founder" of AA. I have no doubt that Hank's one- time brother-in law, Clarence S., gave Hank credit for Chapter 10. I have no doubt that Hank's ideas made their way into Chapter 10. Hank was a former Standard Oil executive, who shared a small office in Newark with Bill Wilson and Ruth Hock. Bill Wilson composed Chapters 1 through 11, no doubt running ideas past Hank in their office every day. Bill Wilson gave Hank credit for Chapter 10, even though Bill had done the writing. In summary, it should be undisputed that Bill Wilson was the author [the "principal" author, if you prefer] of Chapters 1 through 11. There is nothing in Hank's first edition story to suggest that Hank composed Chapter 10. Although Bill had some character defects, hugging credit was not one of them. Bill publically praised William James, Sam Shoemaker and Ebby Thatcher as "founders" of AA. It should not be surprising that Bill would be equally modest in allowing Hank to take credit for Chapter 10. love+service john lee pittsburgh > If one just takes a written story published in the Big > Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is > not doing diligent service to historical research. > There are several letters written by Hank and other > documents, including oral histories which give > authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish > I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me > Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping > Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth, > Clarence and others as well as my reading several > letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to > believe Hank was the author. > > > > --- johnlawlee wrote: > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just > > the first > > > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. > > > > > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written > > in the manner or > > > with the intent that is often presumed in > > analyzing it (perhaps > > > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting > > it). > > > > > > The member who asked the question is using a form > > of reasoning that > > > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical > > gymnastics. It does > > > little more than open the door to what can be an > > endless amount of > > > speculation that serves more to distract rather > > than inform. > > > > > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target > > audience (usually > > > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's > > employers. > > > > > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a > > sentence is > > somehow > > > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an > > early or later part > > of > > > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as > > fact. > > > > > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion > > of the Big Book, > > read > > > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How > > It Works." Trust > > me, > > > there is no need to move this chapter further > > toward the beginning > > of > > > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on > > its own content > > as > > > do all the other chapters. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Arthur > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > > Of Charlene C. > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM > > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking > > > > > > it would be my guess that employers are more > > inclined to think in > > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. > > especially in that > > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a > > moral dilema than a > > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness. > > > > > > just a thought. > > > C. Cook > > > > > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of > > > > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always > > found that hard > > to believe, based on the contrast between the > > divergent styles of > > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. > > Hank's story, "The > > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled > > with > > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected > > that Bill Wilson did > > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank > > supplied many of the > > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock > > shared a small office > > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I > > don't see any > > language in Hank's story which is similar to the > > content or style of > > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit > > for the > > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred > > to William James > > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James > > had been dead for > > decades when AA was founded. > > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order > > for employers. > > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and > > use it to "12 step" > > their employees. I don't see any information in > > Chapter 10 which is > > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The > > intended audience was > > different. It's not a different message. > > john lee > > member > > pittsburgh > > > trixiebellaa wrote: > > > hi history lovers, > > > > > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be > > appreciated that he has > > > been > > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by > > the action of > > alcohol > > > > > > on his brain?" > > > > > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such > > an important piece > > of > > > > > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of > > perhaps one of > > the > > > chapters at the beginning of the book. > > > > > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > Thanks from Tracy > > > The Barking Big Book Study Group > > > England > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from > > addiction > > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction > > recovery > > > Alcoholics anonymous > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > > to: > > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Mail > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > > attachments. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3283. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Digest Number 875 From: Art Boudreault . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2006 10:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To History Lovers, RE: BillW and Helen W. The new biography of Lois Wilson, "Lois Wilson, When Love is not enough" by William Borchert has a different interpretation of the payment of royalties to Bill's long time secretary. He does not mention an affair in this regard. Sincerely, Art Boudreault Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for > this group is quite good and uncovered the following: > > This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty > information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan > 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of > his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3284. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: authorship of Chapter 10 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/22/2006 8:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John In this forum, if we are to be true propagating history, then we should impose upon ourselves the discipline of sticking to articles of fact rather than articles of faith or speculation. Otherwise debate and editorials take precedence over historical reporting. Please refer to "Pass It On" (page 200) which states "Bill wrote at least ten of the opening chapters of the book; there is some reason to believe that "To Employers" may have been written by Hank." This Conference-approved book, was published in 1984. A member of this forum is its primary author of "pass It On." If the statement in the book did not have merit, it would have been excised some time ago. Mitchell K, also an author, relayed information he received through testimonial from Ruth Hock (a first person observer). Merton M, a member of this forum, is researching a comprehensive history of AA in New Jersey (which was started by Hank P). Merton also attributes authorship of "To Employers" to Hank P based on his research (and he is a bit of a stickler for accurate details). All you offer in rebuttal is a rather obscure hypothesis that since the style and content of Hank's Big Book story are different than the chapter "To Employers" that excludes Hank from authoring the chapter. There is no compelling reason why the styles of these two items should be identical or even similar. Hank also wrote a prospectus for the Big Book whose style is altogether different than his story. The prospectus is quite well structured, precise and cogent. Hank was previously a Vice-president for Standard Oil and would have been eminently qualified to write the chapter from the perspective of an employer. It was a type of experience that Bill didn't have (although Bill wasn't a wife either but wrote the chapter "To Wives"). The idea that Bill only wrote the first paragraph of "To Employers" in no way detracts from or diminishes his role in the overall production of the Big Book. Bill's methodology for writing the Big Book chapters was for him to develop an outline of the chapters on a yellow legal pad and then later dictate narrative details to Ruth Hock to type up drafts. The drafts were then presented to NY, Akron and Cleveland members for editing and changes. The consistency of terminology and style among the chapters was a function of membership review not of Bill's writing style, personal preferences or attention to detail. The Big Book is unique in that it is the only literary work in AA where everyone who was a member at the time (1938-1939) had an opportunity to directly contribute to shaping both the wording and style of the book. This also included non-alcoholic friends of AA: 1. Dr Silkworth wrote a letter of support for AA for use in fundraising for the book. The letter, and additional narrative from Dr Silkworth, were incorporated into the chapter "The Doctor's Opinion." 2. 28 members submitted their stories for the book. These stories, then and today, make up a substantial and very important portion of the Big Book (notwithstanding the tiresome "first 164 pages" mantra that circulates within AA). 3. Jim B (whose story is "Vicious Cycle") suggested the phrases "God as we understand Him" and "Power greater than ourselves" be added to the Steps and basic text. 4. A psychiatrist "Dr Howard" (an alias) caused the whole tone of the book to be changed from "must" to "should" or "ought." 5. Tom Uzzell, a friend of Hank P, an editor at Collier's and a member of the NYU faculty, edited the manuscript which was variously estimated as 600-800 pages (including personal stories). Uzzell reduced it to approximately 400 pages. Most cuts came from the personal stories, which had also been edited by Jim S of Akron and Bill W and Hank P in NY. The Big Book is a product of informed group conscience and, as a consequence, it turned out to be a very remarkable product. By his own admission, Bill wrote that his role eventually changed from one of primary author to umpire. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnlawlee Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:40 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: authorship of Chapter 10 --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > Mitchell: I stand by my earlier posting. The person who wrote "The Unbeliever" is not the person who wrote "To Employers". There is absolutely no overlap between the two, although they were both written in 1938 or early 1939. I don't believe you can point to a single phrase in "The Unbeliever" which supplies language/terms/style similar to that found in "To Employers"; for that matter, there is no language or phrasing in "The Unbeliever" which is similar to language or phrasing in any part of the Big Book. "The Unbeliever" is a farrago, a confused mess...staccato, almost hallucinatory style. "The Unbeliever" was not written by the person who wrote Chapter 10. On the other hand, every paragraph of Chapter 10 contains phrases found in other chapters of the basic text. As just one example, out of dozens I could give, pages 143-44 of Chapter 10 talk about the "subject matter" of this book. "It contains full suggestions by which the employee may solve his problem." Compare 143- 44 with the similar language found on page 45 of the earlier Chapter 4, about the "main object" of the book ["to find a Power...which will solve your problem"]. I'd be happy to go over Chapter 10 with you, line by line, and point out where phrases from Chapter 10 are used identically, elsewhere in the Big Book. The person who wrote Chapter 10 borrowed heavily from the other ten chapters of the Big Book. It defies belief that Hank wrote Chapter 10 in isolation. If Hank did in fact compose Chapter 10, he was a liberal plagiarist who copied Bill Wilson's exact language and writing style. Hank would have also completely changed his writing style and language in a six month period,and discarded all his ideas from his own story. The better view is that all eleven chapters of the Big Book were drafted by the same person. They were not written at all by the person who authored "The Unbeliever". I have no doubt that Hank claimed in Hank's correspondence that Hank authored Chapter 10. In a similar vein, Ebby Thatcher loved to refer to himself as a "founder" of AA. I have no doubt that Hank's one- time brother-in law, Clarence S., gave Hank credit for Chapter 10. I have no doubt that Hank's ideas made their way into Chapter 10. Hank was a former Standard Oil executive, who shared a small office in Newark with Bill Wilson and Ruth Hock. Bill Wilson composed Chapters 1 through 11, no doubt running ideas past Hank in their office every day. Bill Wilson gave Hank credit for Chapter 10, even though Bill had done the writing. In summary, it should be undisputed that Bill Wilson was the author [the "principal" author, if you prefer] of Chapters 1 through 11. There is nothing in Hank's first edition story to suggest that Hank composed Chapter 10. Although Bill had some character defects, hugging credit was not one of them. Bill publically praised William James, Sam Shoemaker and Ebby Thatcher as "founders" of AA. It should not be surprising that Bill would be equally modest in allowing Hank to take credit for Chapter 10. love+service john lee pittsburgh > If one just takes a written story published in the Big > Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is > not doing diligent service to historical research. > There are several letters written by Hank and other > documents, including oral histories which give > authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish > I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me > Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping > Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth, > Clarence and others as well as my reading several > letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to > believe Hank was the author. > > > > --- johnlawlee wrote: > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just > > the first > > > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. > > > > > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written > > in the manner or > > > with the intent that is often presumed in > > analyzing it (perhaps > > > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting > > it). > > > > > > The member who asked the question is using a form > > of reasoning that > > > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical > > gymnastics. It does > > > little more than open the door to what can be an > > endless amount of > > > speculation that serves more to distract rather > > than inform. > > > > > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target > > audience (usually > > > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's > > employers. > > > > > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a > > sentence is > > somehow > > > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an > > early or later part > > of > > > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as > > fact. > > > > > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion > > of the Big Book, > > read > > > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How > > It Works." Trust > > me, > > > there is no need to move this chapter further > > toward the beginning > > of > > > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on > > its own content > > as > > > do all the other chapters. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Arthur > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > > Of Charlene C. > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM > > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking > > > > > > it would be my guess that employers are more > > inclined to think in > > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. > > especially in that > > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a > > moral dilema than a > > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness. > > > > > > just a thought. > > > C. Cook > > > > > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of > > > > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always > > found that hard > > to believe, based on the contrast between the > > divergent styles of > > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. > > Hank's story, "The > > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled > > with > > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected > > that Bill Wilson did > > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank > > supplied many of the > > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock > > shared a small office > > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I > > don't see any > > language in Hank's story which is similar to the > > content or style of > > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit > > for the > > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred > > to William James > > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James > > had been dead for > > decades when AA was founded. > > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order > > for employers. > > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and > > use it to "12 step" > > their employees. I don't see any information in > > Chapter 10 which is > > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The > > intended audience was > > different. It's not a different message. > > john lee > > member > > pittsburgh > > > trixiebellaa wrote: > > > hi history lovers, > > > > > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be > > appreciated that he has > > > been > > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by > > the action of > > alcohol > > > > > > on his brain?" > > > > > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such > > an important piece > > of > > > > > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of > > perhaps one of > > the > > > chapters at the beginning of the book. > > > > > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > Thanks from Tracy > > > The Barking Big Book Study Group > > > England > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from > > addiction > > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction > > recovery > > > Alcoholics anonymous > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > > to: > > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Mail > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > > attachments. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3285. . . . . . . . . . . . about poker chips From: Jari Kokkinen . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2006 12:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everyone! must tell you about an incident that relates to poker chips. About a year ago I saw the film "Sting" and in it the players in a poker game used chips that had the symbols of AA - the circle inside the triangle on their reverse side. I wonder if anybody would have any comments clarifying that coincidence or would just have noticed the same thing? In Sobriety, Jari - an AA from Finland --------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3286. . . . . . . . . . . . To Employers and Wives (was: authorship ...) From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 11:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Let me go back to one of the original questions of why the Big Book puts "important information" in chapters To Wives and To Employers instead of at the "front of the book." The title of a chapter does not imply its sole intended audience. Should alcoholics who don't consider themselves to be agnostics skip the We Agnostics chapter? These chapters give the alcoholic reader a chance to see alcoholism from a different point of view. Bill overheard Dr. Silkworth tell Lois what would happen if Bill continued drinking. This caught his attention. Anonymous Number Three overheard Bill say to Dr. Bob, "Well, I believe he's worth saving and working on." Often what we overhear about ourselves has more impact than what is said directly to us. And, of course, the Stories section contains "our personal adventures before and after." There is "important information" there too. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3287. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W. - One Man''s Story - Recording Information Sought From: Mike and Sarah . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/23/2006 12:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 3-23-06 About 'One Man's Story' - It's from the 1960 25th Anniversary of AA, 3rd International Convention held at Long Beach California. Mike -----Original Message----- >From: Steve Leeds >Sent: Mar 20, 2006 8:35 AM >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W. - One Man's Story - Recording Information Sought > >Hey All, > >I recently got a copy of a recording that had no information with it >other than the title "One Man's Story" > >Here's a few things that might help: > >West Coast >Outside >Bill thanks a Mayor >Lois speaks early in the tape >Ebby Speaks early >Bill makes reference to it being the Sunrise of AA > >Thanks, >Steven > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3288. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: authorship of Chapter 10/Openmindedness From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 10:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Art: Text comparison is not an "obscure hypothesis." Text comparison is the primary method used by historians to resolve disputes in authorship and authenticity. Witness the current trial going on in London over the borrowed language in the DaVinci Code novel. Text comparison is used to determine the source of writings, be they those of Mozart, Hemingway, or the Dead Sea Scrolls. The claim that Hank Parkhurst authored Chapter 10 of the Big Book is an AA myth. The myth was initiated by the boastings of Hank, and perpetuated by the anti=Bill Wilson faction of AA. There are many myths in the AA Conference-approved literature. Doctor Bob did not have his last drink on June 10th. Herbert Spencer did not author the quote attributed to him in the Spiritual Experience Appendix. William James never indicated that the educational variety of spiritual experience "develop[s] slowly", as claimed in Appendix I of the Big Book. Hank's story in the first edition big book is an incohesive mess. It represents Hank's view of his own alcoholism, and was written in the exact time period that Bill Wilson was dictating the first eleven chapters of the Big Book. "The Unbeliever" is rambling, choppy and laughably melodramatic. It's a bunch of phrasings strung together in no particular order, punctuated by constant ellipses, exclamation points and question marks. As I've indicated in my two previous postings, there is no language/terms/style in Hank's story similar to the language/terms/style of Chapter 10 ["To Employers"]. The person who wrote "The Unbeliever" was incapable of writing the cohesive, integrated message set forth in "To Employers". Your reliance on Pass It On is misplaced. That book, published in 1984, only says that there is "some reason to believe"...that Chapter 10 "may" have been written by Hank. That's hardly a ringing endorsement of authorship by Hank P. Let's look at a PRIMARY source, to wit, Bill Wilson's signed Forward at the front of "As Bill Sees It" [originally called "The AA Way Of Life"]. Bill's Forward, dated April 1967, asserts that it has been his "privilege to write the following: the text of Alcoholic Anonymous..." There...that should be the end of this discussion. Wilson does not accredit Hank with authorship of any part of the basic text. Bill is a PRIMARY source. The statement of authorship was made and signed by the author, in a conference approved publication. The myth that Hank wrote Chapter 10 is based on second or third hand impressions of those familiar with Hank's boasting. Hank was a big idea guy. He was not a writer of any merit. He was a sales manager, not a writer. Bill Wilson was not a "good" writer, but he was a precise writer who composed chapters that were cohesive and related to each other. It is unfortunate that the interviewer of Ruth Hock did not ask Ruth for any details about the writing of Chapter 10, which details could confirm Hank's participation in the writing of that Chapter. Ruth is a good source for information on the drafting of the Big Book. It would have been most helpful if Ruth had said, "Yes. I'll never forget that rainy Monday morning Hank got into the office early, with a sheaf of handwritten notes about our book. Bill was so relieved, because we had been waiting weeks for Hank to finish his chapter, so we could send the manuscript to the groups." What do I think happened? Hank lobbied for the assignment of writing the chapter "To Employers"; however, Hank never got around to actually writing the chapter. Tired of waiting for Hank's contribution, Bill wrote Chapter 10 himself, and sent out the manuscript. Hank subsequently claimed credit for Chapter 10 to anyone who would listen. Hank's confabulation became an AA myth. Bill Wilson acquiesced to the myth. By 1967, there was no longer any reason for Bill to carry the myth. Bill publically re-established his authorship in the Forward to As Bill Sees It in 1967. In fairness to Hank, the Big Book would have never been published without Hank's efforts. I suspect the whole idea of a basic text was Hank's idea rather than Bill's. Hank stood elbow-to- elbow with Bill for months while Bill dictated the basic text to Ruth. I'm sure Hank's ideas were constantly being injected into the basic text as it was being drafted. Hank just didn't do the actual drafting, dictating or composing. He was a talker, an idea guy. Hank was an unstable man. He made wild claims that he hadn't been paid for his office furniture, and that the records and accounts of Works Publishing had been stolen. Hank made trips to Ohio to undermine Bill Wilson. Bill displayed continuing forbearance towards Hank, and towards Bill's antagonists in Ohio. In summary, there is no language in the First Edition to suggest that Hank wrote Chapter 10. That myth is based on Hank's bald claims of authorship. A conference approved Forward from Bill Wilson in 1967 confirms that Bill wrote the text of the Big Book. Pass it on. johm lee pittsburgh > > Hi John > > In this forum, if we are to be true propagating history, then we > should impose upon ourselves the discipline of sticking to articles of > fact rather than articles of faith or speculation. Otherwise debate > and editorials take precedence over historical reporting. > > Please refer to "Pass It On" (page 200) which states "Bill wrote at > least ten of the opening chapters of the book; there is some reason to > believe that "To Employers" may have been written by Hank." This > Conference-approved book, was published in 1984. > > A member of this forum is its primary author of "pass It On." If the > statement in the book did not have merit, it would have been excised > some time ago. Mitchell K, also an author, relayed information he > received through testimonial from Ruth Hock (a first person observer). > Merton M, a member of this forum, is researching a comprehensive > history of AA in New Jersey (which was started by Hank P). Merton also > attributes authorship of "To Employers" to Hank P based on his > research (and he is a bit of a stickler for accurate details). > > All you offer in rebuttal is a rather obscure hypothesis that since > the style and content of Hank's Big Book story are different than the > chapter "To Employers" that excludes Hank from authoring the chapter. > > There is no compelling reason why the styles of these two items should > be identical or even similar. Hank also wrote a prospectus for the Big > Book whose style is altogether different than his story. The > prospectus is quite well structured, precise and cogent. > > Hank was previously a Vice-president for Standard Oil and would have > been eminently qualified to write the chapter from the perspective of > an employer. It was a type of experience that Bill didn't have > (although Bill wasn't a wife either but wrote the chapter "To Wives"). > > The idea that Bill only wrote the first paragraph of "To Employers" in > no way detracts from or diminishes his role in the overall production > of the Big Book. Bill's methodology for writing the Big Book chapters > was for him to develop an outline of the chapters on a yellow legal > pad and then later dictate narrative details to Ruth Hock to type up > drafts. > > The drafts were then presented to NY, Akron and Cleveland members for > editing and changes. The consistency of terminology and style among > the chapters was a function of membership review not of Bill's writing > style, personal preferences or attention to detail. > > The Big Book is unique in that it is the only literary work in AA > where everyone who was a member at the time (1938-1939) had an > opportunity to directly contribute to shaping both the wording and > style of the book. This also included non-alcoholic friends of AA: > > 1. Dr Silkworth wrote a letter of support for AA for use in > fundraising for the book. The letter, and additional narrative from Dr > Silkworth, were incorporated into the chapter "The Doctor's Opinion." > > 2. 28 members submitted their stories for the book. These stories, > then and today, make up a substantial and very important portion of > the Big Book (notwithstanding the tiresome "first 164 pages" mantra > that circulates within AA). > > 3. Jim B (whose story is "Vicious Cycle") suggested the phrases "God > as we understand Him" and "Power greater than ourselves" be added to > the Steps and basic text. > > 4. A psychiatrist "Dr Howard" (an alias) caused the whole tone of the > book to be changed from "must" to "should" or "ought." > > 5. Tom Uzzell, a friend of Hank P, an editor at Collier's and a member > of the NYU faculty, edited the manuscript which was variously > estimated as 600-800 pages (including personal stories). Uzzell > reduced it to approximately 400 pages. Most cuts came from the > personal stories, which had also been edited by Jim S of Akron and > Bill W and Hank P in NY. > > The Big Book is a product of informed group conscience and, as a > consequence, it turned out to be a very remarkable product. By his own > admission, Bill wrote that his role eventually changed from one of > primary author to umpire. > > Cheers > Arthur > > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnlawlee > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:40 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: authorship of Chapter 10 > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." > wrote: > > > Mitchell: > I stand by my earlier posting. The person who wrote > "The Unbeliever" is not the person who wrote "To Employers". > There is absolutely no overlap between the two, although they > were both written in 1938 or early 1939. I don't believe you can > point to a single phrase in "The Unbeliever" which supplies > language/terms/style similar to that found in "To Employers"; for > that matter, there is no language or phrasing in "The Unbeliever" > which is similar to language or phrasing in any part of the Big Book. > "The Unbeliever" is a farrago, a confused mess...staccato, almost > hallucinatory style. "The Unbeliever" was not written by the person > who wrote Chapter 10. On the other hand, every paragraph of Chapter > 10 contains phrases found in other chapters of the basic text. As > just one example, out of dozens I could give, pages 143-44 of Chapter > 10 talk about the "subject matter" of this book. "It contains full > suggestions by which the employee may solve his problem." Compare 143- > 44 with the similar language found on page 45 of the earlier Chapter > 4, about the "main object" of the book ["to find a Power...which will > solve your problem"]. I'd be happy to go over Chapter 10 with you, > line by line, and point out where phrases from Chapter 10 are used > identically, elsewhere in the Big Book. The person who wrote Chapter > 10 borrowed heavily from the other ten chapters of the Big Book. > It defies belief that Hank wrote Chapter 10 in isolation. If Hank did > in fact compose Chapter 10, he was a liberal plagiarist who copied > Bill Wilson's exact language and writing style. Hank would have also > completely changed his writing style and language in a six month > period,and discarded all his ideas from his own story. The better > view is that all eleven chapters of the Big Book were drafted by the > same person. They were not written at all by the person who > authored "The Unbeliever". > I have no doubt that Hank claimed in Hank's correspondence that Hank > authored Chapter 10. In a similar vein, Ebby Thatcher loved to refer > to himself as a "founder" of AA. I have no doubt that Hank's one- > time brother-in law, Clarence S., gave Hank credit for Chapter 10. I > have no doubt that Hank's ideas made their way into Chapter 10. Hank > was a former Standard Oil executive, who shared a small office in > Newark with Bill Wilson and Ruth Hock. Bill Wilson composed Chapters > 1 through 11, no doubt running ideas past Hank in their office every > day. Bill Wilson gave Hank credit for Chapter 10, even though Bill > had done the writing. > In summary, it should be undisputed that Bill Wilson was the author > [the "principal" author, if you prefer] of Chapters 1 through 11. > There is nothing in Hank's first edition story to suggest that Hank > composed Chapter 10. Although Bill had some character defects, > hugging credit was not one of them. Bill publically praised William > James, Sam Shoemaker and Ebby Thatcher as "founders" of AA. It should > not be surprising that Bill would be equally modest in allowing Hank > to take credit for Chapter 10. > love+service > john lee > pittsburgh > > > > If one just takes a written story published in the Big > > Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is > > not doing diligent service to historical research. > > There are several letters written by Hank and other > > documents, including oral histories which give > > authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish > > I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me > > Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping > > Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth, > > Clarence and others as well as my reading several > > letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to > > believe Hank was the author. > > > > > > > > --- johnlawlee wrote: > > > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just > > > the first > > > > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter. > > > > > > > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written > > > in the manner or > > > > with the intent that is often presumed in > > > analyzing it (perhaps > > > > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting > > > it). > > > > > > > > The member who asked the question is using a form > > > of reasoning that > > > > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical > > > gymnastics. It does > > > > little more than open the door to what can be an > > > endless amount of > > > > speculation that serves more to distract rather > > > than inform. > > > > > > > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target > > > audience (usually > > > > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's > > > employers. > > > > > > > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a > > > sentence is > > > somehow > > > > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an > > > early or later part > > > of > > > > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as > > > fact. > > > > > > > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion > > > of the Big Book, > > > read > > > > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How > > > It Works." Trust > > > me, > > > > there is no need to move this chapter further > > > toward the beginning > > > of > > > > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on > > > its own content > > > as > > > > do all the other chapters. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Arthur > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > > > Of Charlene C. > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM > > > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking > > > > > > > > it would be my guess that employers are more > > > inclined to think in > > > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. > > > especially in that > > > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a > > > moral dilema than a > > > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness. > > > > > > > > just a thought. > > > > C. Cook > > > > > > > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of > > > > > > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always > > > found that hard > > > to believe, based on the contrast between the > > > divergent styles of > > > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. > > > Hank's story, "The > > > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled > > > with > > > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected > > > that Bill Wilson did > > > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank > > > supplied many of the > > > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock > > > shared a small office > > > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I > > > don't see any > > > language in Hank's story which is similar to the > > > content or style of > > > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit > > > for the > > > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred > > > to William James > > > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James > > > had been dead for > > > decades when AA was founded. > > > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order > > > for employers. > > > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and > > > use it to "12 step" > > > their employees. I don't see any information in > > > Chapter 10 which is > > > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The > > > intended audience was > > > different. It's not a different message. > > > john lee > > > member > > > pittsburgh > > > > trixiebellaa wrote: > > > > hi history lovers, > > > > > > > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be > > > appreciated that he has > > > > been > > > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by > > > the action of > > > alcohol > > > > > > > > on his brain?" > > > > > > > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such > > > an important piece > > > of > > > > > > > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of > > > perhaps one of > > > the > > > > chapters at the beginning of the book. > > > > > > > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > Thanks from Tracy > > > > The Barking Big Book Study Group > > > > England > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from > > > addiction > > > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction > > > recovery > > > > Alcoholics anonymous > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > > > > > > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email > > > to: > > > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > > > Yahoo! Terms of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > Yahoo! Mail > > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying > > > attachments. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3289. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: authorship of Chapter 10/Openmindedness From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 10:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A conference approved Forward from Bill Wilson in 1967 confirms that Bill wrote the text of the Big Book.... That settles it! All historical research means nothing. Documents mean nothing. Oral histories mean nothing. All of the work done by historians, researchers, archivists, librarians etc are for nothing. An approval by a so-called conference of expert AA historians and archivists after extensive review of the documents confirmed that Bill alone wrote the text of the Big Book. The fact that Bill himself wrote that he was more of a referee than author counts for nothing. The fact that the manuscript chapters were reviewed, re-written and debated by virtually all the founding members means nothing. Bill, in a vacuum wrote the Big Book by himself. The subject of openmindedness mixed with the myopic prejudiced views expressed denegrates this group and its value in the study and bringing forth of factual AA history vs so-called conference approved sanitized versions. If I remember correctly....didn't some sort of conference approval prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the world was flat? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3290. . . . . . . . . . . . Authorship of "To Employers" From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 6:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The questioning of the authorship of "To Employers" sent me to reread my copy of Lois Remenbers. On page 114 Lois states "Therefore I had expected Bill to ask me to write the chapter "To Wives" and perhaps the following one, "The Family Afterward." When I shyly suggested this, he said no; he thought the book, except for the stories, should all be written in the same style. I have never known why he didn't want me to write about the wives, and it hurt me at first; but our lives were so full that I didn't have time to think about it much." If Bill W. has assigned the writing of "To Employers" to Hank P., he could not have used writing style as a reason to not allow Lois to write a chapter or chapters and Lois would have noted this in her history book. Maybe we have a case of something being repeated often enough that it becomes the truth, sort of. Cheers Jim [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3291. . . . . . . . . . . . Circle and triangle on poker chips in "The Sting" From: george cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/24/2006 10:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there, I have seen these on eBay several times. The circle and triangle are certainly not unique. Geometrically, they fit well and one can find them in many places. I saw the symbol on a gas station fill cover the other day. And the state where I live actually uses it for the Alcoholic Beverage Commission. So when you go to a State Liquor Store, you see the AA logo. However I am not sure of the exact reason or origin for the appearance on poker chips. George Cleveland Jari Kokkinen wrote: Hi everyone! must tell you about an incident that relates to poker chips. About a year ago I saw the film "Sting" and in it the players in a poker game used chips that had the symbols of AA - the circle inside the triangle on their reverse side. I wonder if anybody would have any comments clarifying that coincidence or would just have noticed the same thing? In Sobriety, Jari - an AA from Finland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3292. . . . . . . . . . . . Chapter 10: Bill or Hank? From: Jeffrey Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2006 4:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages from Jeffrey Johnson, Rick Tompkins, rriley9945, Arthur Sheehan, John Lee, and Edgar C. ______________________________ FROM: Jeffrey Johnson (jeffrey_h_johnson at yahoo.com) While not wanting to sound overly repetitive relative to statements made by other posters, it appears to me that there is a very subtle yet critical issue which is being overwhelmed with strong rhetoric and exaggerated counter claims regarding the ‘validity' of differing research methodologies. As the antagonists in this ‘argument' become more entrenched in their varying postulations, the key historical facts are becoming obscured, and to some degree ignored. First and foremost, as a long time member of this group, it is my OPINION that one of the critical customs of this group is being ignored by certain participants in this debate - in absence of concrete, IRREFUTABLE facts, we can agree to disagree. Clearly, neither ‘side' in this discussion has produced any irrefutable "articles of fact" which definitively settle this controversy. The use of ‘text comparison' is no more (or less) valid than citing one source (Pass It On), since neither methodology / source fully or with any level of reliable accuracy ends the debate. In my way of thinking there is ample evidence to support a middle ‘ground' position on this topic. Bill Wilson stated in a talk he delivered in 1954 in Fort Worth, TX that he was the "author..." of the Big Book. However, in this same talk - and in support of Arthur's previous statements - Bill goes on to provide a much more detailed account of how the Big Book was written. "So, the preparation started and some more chapters were done and we went into AA in New York with these chapters in the rough. It wasn't like chicken-in-the-rough; the boys didn't eat those chapters up at all. I suddenly discovered that I was in this terrific whirlpool of arguments. I was just the umpire...So, we fought, bled and died our way through one chapter after another. We sent them out to Akron and they were peddled around and there were terrific hassles about what should go into this book and what should not." Therefore, given Bill's comments, the claims made by each side regarding some type of definitive evidence that Hank did or did not ‘author' Chapter 10 are unsubstantiated by any relevant fact. While not wanting to sound overly pedantic, another key issue appears to be the definition of ‘authorship', especially as Bill Wilson would have understood it. Inasmuch as the term author is used synonymously with writer today, Bill may have understood ‘author' to have a different connotation; when used as a verb, Bill may have understood the following connotation: To assume responsibility for the content of a published text. Moreover, from the reflections Ruth Hock wrote in 1959 (at Bill's request), there is some support for the postulation that Bill may have understood the connotation of authorship as previously defined. "So far as I know there was never any doubt that you were the one to write it, Bill, and I know that you spent endless hours discussing its general form with everyone who would listen or offer an idea - especially with Doc Smith , Fitz and Hank. As soon as you began to feel you had at least a majority agreement you began to arrive at the office with those yellow scratch pad sheets I came to know so well. All you generally had on those yellow sheets were a few notes to guide you on a whole chapter! My understanding was that those notes were the result of long thought on your part after hours of discussion pro and con with everyone who might be interested." (Ruth Hock's Recollections, Nov. 10, 1959, p. 4) Indeed, it seems to stretch credibility to the extreme, given Bill and Ruth's VERY definitive statements, to state unequivocally that Hank had no part in writing Chapter 10, nor would it be supportable to say he was the primary writer either. All available and historically accurate evidence indicates that Bill was responsible for the overall content and context of the Big Book, but that numerous individuals influenced different sections and / or information which was included (and excluded) from the book. The a priori result, based on all relevant facts, is that Bill developed a general outline of each chapter then dictated the actual wording to Ruth. Then a VERY lengthy review process occurred wherein numerous individuals provided critical feedback, which at times resulted in material alterations to Bill's original intent and wording. Clearly Hank was involved in, and was a PRIMARY source of feedback regarding the development of the entire book, not just chapter 10. Given Hank's physical proximity to Bill during this period - they were confined to a very small workspace while Ruth was taking dictation - an intuitively appealing conclusion is that Hank had substantial influence on Chapter 10 as a result of his professional background and experience. In summary, I conclude that all relevant historical evidence supports the conclusion that Bill was the primary ‘author' of the Big Book. However, to conclude from this evidence that Hank was NOT influential in the development of the ideas and / or wording included in Chapter 10 by stating that "The claim that Hank Parkhurst authored Chapter 10 of the Big Book is an AA myth. The myth was initiated by the boastings of Hank, and perpetuated by the anti-Bill Wilson faction of AA" is nothing more than speculation and personal opinion. Ample evidence indicates that many key individuals, including Dr. Bob, Hank and Fizthugh Mayo had substantial influence on the content and information included in the book. However, barring new evidence, it CANNOT be stated irrefutable whether or not Hank was the PRIMARY source / WRITER for the ideas and information included in Chapter 10. Yours in service, Jeff J ______________________________ FROM: "ricktompkins" (ricktompkins at comcast.net) That settles it! Now I need to read the Advisory Actions booklet again to see self-protection in action. Intellectual property-type lawsuits went on in that decade, too, so why shouldn't the Conference vote that the Text section be completely attributed to Bill? Off the records, Bill would honestly defer to others as literary sources. (BTW, sorry about the top-posting here, group...) Thank you for your post, Mitch, your satire makes us take our own stock as AA historians. From what I've come to understand, Parkhurst created the outline for the Big Book, brought the editors on board, fine-tuned a great deal of the text, and was an integral part of the NYC+Akron teams that roundtabled the final text that was published in February 1939. "The Unbeliever" reads like scenes in the movie "The Lost Weekend" and could have been Hank's last foray into creative writing. If Wilson said Parkhurst wrote "To Employers" let's take him at his word! Parkhurst was once an employer's Administrator, remember... I truly believe that Wilson did not write our Twelve Steps, he just wrote them down after a spell of astounding serendipity: a mix of Oxford Grouper principles, Dale Carnegie courses, and the fledgling Alcoholic Squads' attempt to close every loophole that a conniving drunk could try to sneak through. The collective vision of our pioneers found a great deal of its conduit with Bill's activity of writing it all down. To me, that vision, expanded and separated from Oxford Movement principles, set about to close all loopholes that brought recovery to drunks in their disease. The principles of AA are repeated innumerable times and many different ways throughout our Big Book, just think of the simple example 'wrongs, defects of character, shortcomings.' Same idea, different sentences. Our AA authorship appears to be subject to myth until proven otherwise, while our AA principles are just as much derivative. Bill was never a Pulitzer-Prize-grade writer, and many editors, right down to the linotype operator at Cornwall Press, are facts of our AA history. Tom Powers is no longer alive to reaffirm the fact that Bill needed much assistance in his writing, and Nell Wing also attested to that reality. When speaking of writing the history of my home Area 20, I would always defer to the panels who reviewed my effort and I still share that when it came together, the facts drove it to the point where it just about wrote itself! To this day, some believe it was written by a committee and that perspective continues to sit well with me. Love and serenity to all here, Rick, Illinois ______________________________ FROM: "ArtSheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) An interesting bit of information from Bill W is in "AA Comes of Age" (pgs 165-166). Bill writes: "... But as the book-naming discussion went on, I began to have certain doubts and temptations. From the start the title "The Way Out" was popular. If we gave the book this name, then I could add my signature, 'By Bill W.'! After all why shouldn't an author sign his book? I began to forget that this was everybody's book and that I had been mostly the umpire of the discussions that had created it ..." Also, portions of "To Employers" are written in the style of first person narrative and in the context of the narrator being an employer. The profile narrated does fit Hank but not Bill. Cheers Arthur ______________________________ FROM: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) Response to James Blair Jim, Good point about the "writing style" pretext used by Bill. I'd forgotten that exchange with Lois. As you know, the Alanon preamble tracks the language of "To Wives". How about the royalties issue, also? If Hank had actually written part of the Big Book, he would have been legally entitled to royalties, irrespective of Hank tendering his Works Publishing shares to Bill for a redundant $200 payment. Hank didn't pursue his royalties claim because it was pure fiction. Bill knew that. Hank even knew it, in his sober moments. Bill worked out a deal with the Trustees, whereby Bill would get royalty payments for the Big Book. Bob wasn't an author of the Big Book but Bill still tried to get royalty payments for Bob. If Hank's claim to authorship had had the slightest validity, Hank would have been awarded royalties for the Big Book. That's why overall payments to Bill became such a hot issue in Cleveland, where Bill was confronted with Clarence's charges that Bill was making a fortune on AA. Hank had gone crying the blues to Clarence about the Big Book royalties. If Hank had kept his cool, he would have been awarded Big Book royalties. Bill was always deferential to Hank, who had been Bill's business partner and first successful pigeon in NYC. Ruth Hock wrote a long 1955 letter to Bill Wilson, detailing the writing of the Big Book. Nowhere in that long letter does Ruth suggest that Hank wrote Chapter 10 of the Big Book. You're absolutely correct. These AA fables keep getting repeated for decades, and eventually assume the truth. Nobody bothers to check the original documents, such as the AMA Convention Program, Spencer's Principles of Biology, or James' Varieties of Religious Experience. If anyone would take the time to read "The Unbeliever", they would be convinced that Hank didn't concurrently write "To Employers". Hank couldn't write a lucid paragraph about alcoholism. john lee pittsburgh ______________________________ FROM: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com) Response to James Blair Maybe we have a case of something being repeated often enough that it becomes the truth, sort of. Cheers Jim - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Well said, Jim. That's the reason why we all know what space aliens look like. I even have salt and pepper shakers in their likeness. As to why Bill W wrote To Wives, instead of letting Lois do it as she asked, it's hard to imagine her using the patronizing, forgiving tone of the chapter, especially such sentences as, "The first principle of success is that you should never be angry..." and "Patience and good temper are most necessary.". I think you can make a case for it being an oblique way for Bill to say to Lois, "Get off my case, Lois..." Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla ______________________________ FROM: rriley9945@aol.com (rriley9945 at aol.com) If I remember correctly....didn't some sort of conference approval prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the world was flat? Er--The world isn't flat????? ______________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3293. . . . . . . . . . . . Poker chips and AA symbols From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/25/2006 6:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages from Doug B., Kimball, and M. Eaton ______________________________ FROM: "Doug B." (dougb at aahistory.com) Jari, I have lots of the circle/triangle chips that you mention. They are from about 1910 per a poker chip dealer I spoke to. The reason there are so many symbols and styles of the old clay chips is because there are were so many establishments that wanted chips that could be their own style and denomination. Todays poker chip manufacturing can use any graphic they want to so there are even more variations available and they don't have to use the antiquated symbols anymore. Doug B. ______________________________ From: "Kimball" (rowek at softcom.net) I know that poker chip were used as AA tokens, or at least in Germany. When I was there they had a chip system based on the plain poker chip (no circle, no triangle): BEGINNER - WHITE The first poker chip was called the surrender chip. It was white and was given to all new comers. The new comer was told that "White is the International color for SURRENDER. Now would be a good time to surrender yourself and place your care in the hands of God. However, should you return to drinking it may also represent the color of the sheet that will place over your cold dead body." Often we had to order rolls of "just white" poker chips. ONE MONTH - RED The second chip was red and given at the one month period. People with one month were told that "Red is the international color for STOP. Now would be a good time to stop your stinking thinking, stop your old behaviors, stop playing with your old friends. However, should you return to drinking, then the color red could represent the color of your front windshield as you're ejected from the car." THREE MONTHS - GREEN The third chip was green and given at the three month period (we had no two month chip). People with three months were told that "Green is the international color for GO. Now would be a good time for you to go to more meetings, go read your Big Book, go and talk to a sponsor, or go and help another. However, should you return to drinking, then the color green could represent the color of your liver during autopsy." SIX MONTHS - BLUE The fourth chip was blue and given at the six month period. People with six months were told that "Blue is the international color for PEACE. By now, you've been off the sauce long enough for the 'fog' to lift, the steps have begun to change you, and you may be at last experiencing moments of serenity. However, should you return to drinking the color blue could represent the emotions felt by family and loved ones who knew that behind the booze was a fine human being." NINE MONTHS - YELLOW The fifth and the last poker chip was yellow and was given at nine months of sobriety. People with nine months were told that "Yellow is the international color for CAUTION. By now you know a lot about AA and staying sober. In someways, you may actually know enough to be dangerous. This is a time to exercise extreme caution in what you do and think, stay close to the fellowship and pray. However, should you return to drinking, then the color yellow could represent the color of your jaundiced eyes the mortician preps you for viewing." ______________________________ FROM: "M.Eaton" (meaton1287 at rogers.com) I was watching a tv episode one day and it was set in a classroom. On the blackboard in the background was "Homework - Chapter 5 - How It Works". It is always possible that one of our legion of members was sending a "hello" message. Just a theory - Murray Eaton IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3294. . . . . . . . . . . . Chapter 10: Bill or Hank? Another clue... From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/26/2006 2:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA History Lovers: I took another look at the December 1938 Big Book "Prospectus" developed by Hank and Bill. The first part sounds like Bill Wilson, the second half, Hank P. The non-alcoholic Trustees weren't keen on financing a basic text, reasoning that Hank and Bill had no experience in publishing. Tell a drunk he can't do something, and what happens? Hank and Bill made of tour of publishing houses, to get background and troll for an advance. Hank and Bill were both autodidacts [self-taught]. They were innovative guys. A third of the Works Publishing stock was given to Bill as author and a third to Hank as business manager. Hank tried to hawk the remaining third at meetings, with very limited success. Ruth apparently got shares, in lieu of some of her wages. It should not be surprising that the AA members were unenthusiastic about buying stock in a book that hadn't been written. Many of these same members had already been ruined financially by the stock market collapse of 1929. There is an important clue about Chapter 10's authorship in the December 1938 Prospectus. The last line of the page entitled "The Present Program" indicates that "ten chapters [of One Hundred Men] have now been written." The missing chapter was either Chapter 5 or Chapter 10. Everyone agrees that Chapters 1 and 2 were the first ones finished, and the drafts of those chapters were used to try to coax an advance from publishers. Bill's talks indicate that the last Chapter he finished was Chapter 5, How It Works. The Prospectus does not indicate the name or subject matter of the missing chapter. Can anyone in this forum identify the month Bill wrote up the 12 steps? If Bill's quick writeup of the 12 steps on his bed occurred prior to December 1938, then it is probable that Chapter 10 was the missing chapter. love+tolerance john lee IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3295. . . . . . . . . . . . Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: George Cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/27/2006 9:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there, I am blessed with a great collection of recordings of Bill Wilson. Listening to the spoken words of Bill and other long-timers (in some cases before they were long-timers) is a wonderful resource. Thanks to our technology these days, we can hear these people breathing in our ears. And the message of 50 years ago is the same as today. I have been wandering through Google and all the links that Glenn and others have provided. Can someone direct me to where I might find downloads of Lois' talks? Are there recordings of Anne Smith? Thanks for any help you can provide. George Cleveland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3296. . . . . . . . . . . . Working the Steps/Program From: Dean C . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/28/2006 2:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've searched the text in the front part of the book ("Alcoholics Anonymous") and don't find the phrasing "working the Steps" or "work the Steps" or "work the program" anywhere. What I find is "the steps we took," "practice these principles," "accept and practice spiritual principles," "apply spiritual principles," "spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred of them had followed," "follow our program," "following the program ," "give themselves to this simple program," "let up on the spiritual program of action," "a practical program of action," "go through with the Twelve Steps of the program of recovery," "Let the alcoholic continue his program," "he may go for the program at once," "try our program," "falling down on his spiritual program," "the wife who adopts a sane spiritual program, making a better practical use of it," and so on. The word "work" is used to convey a result, as in "It worked!" Or, it's an action based on what we've learned, as in "if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others. Or "a design for living that works in rough going." Or "we try to put spiritual principles to work in every department of our lives." (And so on.) To me, "working the Steps" has a connotation far different from what's in the book. It sounds difficut, unattractive, for one thing. And "work the program" sounds, to me, well, conniving, as in "work the system," or like what a comedian or salesperson or politician might do: "work the crowd," "work the room." Perhaps in other geographical areas, "work the Steps" isn't heard. It's pretty much all that is heard here. Does anyone know when these "work" phrases crept into our AA vocabulary? (Or where it appears in Conference-approved literature?) Thanks! -- Dean Collins Monterey Peninsula, California IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3297. . . . . . . . . . . . Author of "It Might Have Been Worse" From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/30/2006 7:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We are working thru all the stories in our bb and step weekly meeting. The West Baltimore AA site has been most helpful in providing information about the authors, but not all of them. Next week, we read It Might Have Been Worse. West Baltimore gives us Chet Rude as the author, but little more beyond what is in the story. Anyone have more information I can bring to the meeting? Or another source for the authors of those stories? Thanks in advance Edgar C, Sarasota, FL IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3298. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2006 8:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Cindy Miller, Robert Stonebraker, Joe Adams, and K D Dew ______________________________ FROM: Cindy Miller (cm53 at earthlink.net) Greetings! In answer to your question: I don't know if there are any recordings of Anne Smith--but I do have at least one recording ("Classic Talks"-Dicobe Tapes) of Lois in my vast Al-Anon collection! ;-) -cm ______________________________ FROM: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) George, The Akron Intergroup offers an album with five historical CDs, one of these is titled: "A Message To Bill And Lois." At this point Ann Smith, Dr. Bob, Smitty and his wife are making a recording to be delivered to Bill and Lois Wilson on a then new fangled recording device. Each of them speak only a few sentences but it is a charming recording. Also, on this CD is two of Dr. Bob's talks: (1) at Detroit in 1948 and (2) at Cleveland in 1950. Write to: Akron AA Audio Archives 775 North Main Street Akron, OH 44310 Email www.akronaa.org/archives Bob S. ______________________________ FROM: Joe Adams (sober_in_nc at yahoo.com) I, too, love to hear the voice that gave use the words, and I download many many many free files in MP3 format from http://www.xa-speakers.org, including historic Bill, Bob, Lois and other key speakers. Another good library to hear things online in real-audio format from http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm. I am not aware of any recordings by Anne ... and will be watching the list to see if anyone has better information. ______________________________ FROM: "K D Dew" (kddew at bardstowncable.net) I know of one free recording try this link: http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm Down the page about 3/4 of the way there is a link to "Lois W." it is Lois Wilson. Here's another link: http://amottapes.com/ but they charge Kevin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3299. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Working the Steps/Program From: emily baker . . . . . . . . . . . . 3/29/2006 7:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Emily Baker, Lynne, Kimball, Jaime Maliachi, Jon Markle, John Lee, Anders, and K D Dew ______________________________ From: "emily baker" (EBAKER at bak.rr.com) Or, Participate in the discipline of the steps. ______________________________ From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com (Gotogo2002L at aol.com) faith without works.........is dead? It is an action word........how does one improve his spiritual life, without thoroughly following the steps as laid out in the big book. half measures avail us nothing...................... LOL Lynne ______________________________ From: "Kimball" (rowek at softcom.net) LMAO took practice accept apply action follow following give themselves go through with go for try falling down adopts practical use If you can't see work here, you're not looking! ______________________________ From: "Jaime F. Maliachi P." (jmaliachi at megatopexercise.com) Dear Dean: good day and 24 hours of sobriety to you. My name is Jim Maliachi, and I am alcoholic anonymous since 12 years. You are right in one sense about your point of view. But I remember some expressions of Dr. Bob and good Veterans, that book include "if your man drink, he help you to show how do not work the program, if he does not drink he help you too because he show you how it work..." May be in Akron area was the site where it start to be the phrases with "work". In Mexico City we used to say "practice" the program, and "work" the defects of character. BUT work the steps means (to me), to practice them. There are not difference between those w ords, at least, it just is important one thing: How I change my way to be, to think and to live. Make it simple. Thanks a lot for your tolerance. Jimbo. Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote. servidor y amigo. ______________________________ From: Jon Markle (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) I realize that in some areas, the word "work" has some awful and negative connotations. I think that's just a matter of attitude and not necessarily scientific . . . And that aversion appears to me to come directly out of treatment clinics where in groups, the word "work" is often suppressed and substituted with "suggestions", or similar. My personal opinion (not fact) is, that's a wimpy excuse for getting someone else to do the work for the alcoholic. But, that's just my personal opinion and not based on any sort of fact, except my own experience! My sponsor told it to me this way, "Jon, if you work it, it's yours, you own it. If I work it, it's mine and I'll take it with me when I go." Somehow that made sense to me . . . So, I "work it"! LOL The one phrase that immediately comes to my mind is page 88, (Third Ed), "It works--it really does. We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined. But this is not all. There is action and more action. 'Faith without works is dead.' The next chapter is entirely devoted to Step Twelve." I'm not sure this is what you are looking for, though. But, it seems clear to me, at least, that "working" is a semantic expression of the process that involves, learning, practicing and putting to use the skills necessary to enable the sufferer to have the desire to drink permanently removed, become not only sober, to recover, but also to remain sober, recovered and usefully whole. But, that's just my take on it . . . Jon Markle Raleigh ______________________________ From: "johnlawlee" (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) Dean: We hear "working the program" constantly in Pittsburgh. It's street slang, oily politician rhetoric. Similar to "working the crowd" or "working the room". Very manipulative language. The only place I've seen "working the steps" in the basic literature is ONE reference in 12and12, near the beginning of the chapter on step 10. 12and12 basically says that as we worked the first nine steps, we now begin to LIVE them. I've long believed that the better view is that the steps "work" us, they transform us, irrespective of our original motives. The 10th step promises in the Big Book seem to bear that out ["it happens automatically..."]. john lee ______________________________ From: anders (serenityodaat at yahoo.se) Hiya Dean! I did a very quick and rough word count of the basic text (first eleven chapters and doc's opinion) and found some 60 references. At least 75% of them was in the term "action" or "labour", simillair to the examples below: "Particularly was it imperative to work with others as he had worked with me. Faith without works was dead, he said" - p. 24 "...He is the Principal, we are His agent..." "...We had a new Employer. Being all powerful, He provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and performed His work well..." - p.75 "But this is not all. There is action and more action. 'Faith without works is dead.' The next chapter is entirely devoted to step twelve." - p. 100 "WORKING WITH OTHERS PRACTICAL experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail." - p. 101 ______________________________ From: "K D Dew" (kddew at bardstowncable.net) I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert, of course, but it was explained to me that the term "working the steps" comes from the phrase in the 9th step promises..."they will always come true if we work for them." http://www.nokama.com/bigbook/ The above link is to a searchable website of the big book. There are 101 references to the word "work." One might derive "working the steps" from some of the sentences in the BB in which the word work is used. Kevin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3300. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant April Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/4/2006 1:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII April April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks and tell them of obsession and allergy. April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best Friend" by Jack Alexander. April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest desire to stop drinking". April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic. April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC. April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big Book. April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used to open AA meetings in Texas. April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died. April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died. April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida. April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill W's "spiritual sponsor." April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack Alexander. April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the office Bill and Hank P shared. April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938) April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford. April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no- hitter in baseball history since 1909. April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the one millionth copy of the Big Book. April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was formed. First 'mail order' group. April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was formed in Seattle. April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock to the Alcoholic Foundation. April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them. April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published. April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died. April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show. April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held. April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation was broadcast on ABC TV. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3301. . . . . . . . . . . . Resentment quote In Big Book Story From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2006 8:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Friends: I would like to know the exact source of a wonderful quotation on dealing with resentment that appears in "Freedom From Bondage," a personal story in the Big Book. The personal story was first used in the 2nd edition, published in 1955, and has been retained in the 3rd and 2nd editions, which indicates that the editors felt it was of superior quality. Here's the quotation, which can be found on p. 552 of the 4th (latest) edition. The author said she found it in a magazine article and that it was about getting rid of resentment. It was by a prominent clergyman He said, in effect: If you have a resentment you want to be free of, if you will pray for the person or the thing that you resent, you will be free. If you will ask in prayer for everything you want for yourself to be given to them, you will be free. Ask for their health, their prosperity, their happiness, and you will be free. Even when you don't really want it for them and your prayers are only words and you don't mean it, go ahead and do it anyway. Do it every day for two weeks, and you will find you have come to mean it and to want it for them, and you will realize that where you used to feel bitterness and resentment and hatred, you now feel compassionate understanding and love." The author went on to say it worked for her then and worked for her since and worked every time she was willing to work it. Who was the prominent clergyman who authored this quotation? My guess is that it was Norman Vincent Peale, who became very prominent with his 1952 publication of that blockbuster, "The Power of Positive Thinking." He was a good friend of AA and even devoted a large part of one chapter in that book to AA. But does anyone know where the above quotation appeared? It had to be before 1955, because that's when it first appeared in the Big Book. It was in a magazine with the word "resentment" on the cover, as this is what caught the Big Book writer's attention. It might have been in Guideposts magazine and slightly different from the quotation shown above, as the author used "in effect" in presenting it. It's a great quotation, by the way, and ought to be put on a card and passed around at meetings, especially when resentment is the topic. Come to think of it, I think I'll do that for my group her in Toledo and any of the History Lovers could easily download it from this message and circulate it in their own groups. LOL to All, Mel Barger, Toledo, Ohio ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3302. . . . . . . . . . . . Jack H. (sob. 1958) passed away... From: Mike Custer . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/3/2006 7:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sad to report that Jack Holt passed away. Jack's sobriety date was March 6, 1958. 48 years of sobriety. There is a memorial site with information about his service here IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3303. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: Phillip Waters . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2006 8:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have several talks by Lois in MP3 format. Please feel free to contact me off list. Phillip Waters ____________________________________ My e-mail address is: (muddy at bham.rr.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3304. . . . . . . . . . . . Wombley''s Clapboard Factory? From: Joe Adams . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/3/2006 12:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can ANYONE give me some background of the big explosion of Wombley's Clapboard Factory? It's April and my home group - and many of the groups around here - will be studying Tradition 4 again. Last year I went to six meetings in a row that were all the same and no one has any idea of the significance of the reference. Not that it is a major point of recovery, but it IS in the books and we DO get that question every single time. Anybody? (and smile, it's not all that grim) ______________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn Chesnut) The "day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory" is referred to in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions pp. 147-149. (This is also where we find Rule No. 62, "Don't take yourself too damn seriously.") We have a couple of past messages which talked about this, which I give immediately below (Messages 2324 and 1610). Does anyone in the AAHistoryLovers have any additional information? ______________________________ Message 2324 from "Mark Morse" (markm at eauclaire.lib.wi.us) Wombley's clapboard factory Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an Edgar Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vermont, before the turn of the century. The Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as that of the Ward family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through Chittenden county. ______________________________ Message 1610 from Jim Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wilson House in East Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can still be seen. Jim ______________________________ The full story, pp. 147-149 from the chapter in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions on the Fourth Tradition ("Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole"). That section says: Every group had the right to be wrong. When A.A. was still young, lots of eager groups were forming. In a town we'll call Middleton, a real crackerjack had started up. The townspeople were as hot as firecrackers about it. Stargazing, the elders dreamed of innovations. They figured the town needed a great big alcoholic center, a kind of pilot plant A.A. groups could duplicate everywhere. Beginning on the ground floor there would be a club; in the second story they would sober up drunks and hand them currency for the back debts; the third deck would house and educational project - quite controversial, of course. In imagination the gleaming center was to go up several stories more, but three would do for a start. This would all take a lot of money - other people's money. Believe it or not, wealthy townsfolk bought the idea. There were, though, a few conservative dissenters among the alcoholics. They wrote the Foundation*, A.A.'s headquarters in New York, wanting to know about this sort of streamlining. They understood that the elders, just to nail things down good, were about to apply to the Foundation for a charter. These few were disturbed and skeptical. [*In 1954, the name of the Alcoholic Foundation, Inc., was changed to the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc., and the Foundation office is now the General Service Office.] Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a super-promoter. By his eloquence he allayed all fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it could issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed an A.A. group with medication and education had come to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things safer, the promoter organized three corporations and became president of them all. Freshly painted, the new center shone. The warmth of it all spread through the town. Soon things began to hum. to insure foolproof, continuous operation, sixty-one rules and regulations were adopted. But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening. Confusion replaced serenity. It was found that some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if they were alcoholics. The personality defects of others could be cured maybe with a loan. Some were club-minded, but it was just a question of taking care of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming applicants would go for all three floors. Some would start at the top and come through to the bottom, becoming club members; others started in the club, pitched a binge, were hospitalized, then graduated to education on the third floor. It was a beehive of activity, all right, but unlike a beehive, it was confusion compounded. An A.A. group, as such, simply couldn't handle this sort of project. All too late that was discovered. Then came the inevitable explosion - something like that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory. A chill chokedamp of fear and frustration fell over the group. When that lifted, a wonderful thing had happened. The head promoter wrote the Foundation office. He said he wished he'd paid attention to A.A. experience. Then he did something else that was to become an A.A. classic. It all went on a little card about golf-score size. The cover read: "Middleton Group #1. Rule #62." Once the card was unfolded, a single pungent sentence leaped to the eye: "Don't take yourself too damn seriously." Thus it was that under Tradition Four an A.A. group had exercised its right to be wrong. ______________________________ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3305. . . . . . . . . . . . V. C. Kitchen and the Oxford Group From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2006 5:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been doing research on one of the important Oxford Group books, V. C. Kitchen's "I Was a Pagan," for a book which I am writing. Other than what Kitchen says about himself in his book, I have so far been able to find out relatively little about his life. Some of it is a bit frustrating. For example, although I have been able to discover his date of birth (1891), his date of death is unaccountably absent from the normal librarians' reference sources. Using Google to search the internet has shown that Dick B. and myself are the only two people who seem to have done much research on V. C. Kitchen, unless I am possibly missing something by inadvertence. The standard library reference sources at the Indiana University library (like the "Dictionary of National Biography" and so on) make no mention of Kitchen anywhere. What I have done below is to give all of the information which I have in fact been able to find, written up in the form in which I plan to use it in the book. If any members of the AAHistoryLovers can provide me with any additional information about V. C. Kitchen's life, I would greatly appreciate it. Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana ______________________________ In 1934, Victor Constant Kitchen published a book called "I Was a Pagan," [1] describing his discovery of the Oxford Group and the way it had changed his life. This is a short but very useful work for understanding the Oxford Group movement and the origins of many of the practices found in Alcoholics Anonymous. One nevertheless has to actually read Kitchen's little book. Attempting to summarize the connections between the Oxford Group and A.A. by giving short lists of tenets and principles does not do adequate justice to the linkage. Anyone however who has a first hand acquaintance with A.A., who then reads through "I Was a Pagan," will find page after page where it sounds in uncanny fashion almost like a description of Alcoholics Anonymous in operation written by a long-time A.A. member. The Oxford Group was not the same as A.A., but we can see the connection between the two movements in the style and the feeling, just as much as in some of the ideas which A.A. borrowed from the parent group. V. C. Kitchen was a New York advertising man, with an office at 42nd Street and Fifth Avenue. He had a great interest in the Calvary Rescue Mission for down-and-outers at 246 East 23rd Street near Second Avenue, an operation which was supported by Calvary Episcopal Church and run by Oxford Group members. Calvary Episcopal Church itself was located several blocks away on Fourth Avenue (now Park Avenue South) at 21st Street. The rector, Father Samuel Shoemaker, had constructed an eight-story parish house called Calvary House next door to the church in 1928. Shoemaker was a devoted follower of Frank Buchman, the founder of the Oxford Group. Under Shoemaker's leadership, Calvary House became the American headquarters of the movement. Kitchen, with his writing skills, wrote articles for the Rev. Shoemaker's publication, the "Calvary Evangel." [2] In November 1934, Ebby Thacher came to visit Bill Wilson in his kitchen in the second floor apartment at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn, [3] and told him about the Oxford Group and its teachings. As a result Bill visited Calvary Rescue Mission, began learning more about the Oxford Group, and eventually (after his vision of the divine light in Towns Hospital) began attending the Oxford Group meetings at Calvary House, where he got to know Father Shoemaker himself. [4] What makes Kitchen's book so important for A.A. history, is that the eye-witness account which he gives of the Oxford Group at work describes the kind of practices which existed in the New York city area at the exact time that Bill Wilson first came into contact with the movement. He and Bill W. were both members of the same Oxford Group businessman's group in New York City during the period around 1935-1936, and became good friends. [5] The two of them were close to the same age, so they could relate to one another easily: in 1934 -- which was the year that Ebby visited Bill in his apartment and told him about the Oxford Group, and the year that Kitchen's book "I Was a Pagan" was published -- Bill turned 39 years old and Kitchen was 43. [6] There was also a connection between Kitchen and Dr. Bob, although it was indirect. In 1933, wealthy rubber baron Harvey Firestone, Sr. (president of the Firestone Rubber and Tire Company) brought sixty Oxford Group members to Akron, Ohio, paying all their expenses, so that they could get a group started in that city. Kitchen was one of the members of that team, [7] which meant that he was one of the founders of the Oxford Group fellowship in that city. Dr. Bob's wife Anne was the one who persuaded the doctor to start attending these new Oxford Group meetings early in 1933, shortly after they were begun. Now it should be noted that Dr. Bob was not able to get sober just by joining the Oxford Group, but it created the link which allowed him to meet Bill W. two years later, in May, 1935. It also gave him enough knowledge of Oxford Group principles to allow him and Bill W. to start talking together productively from the very start, and creating the Alcoholics Anonymous movement by modifying and adapting those Oxford Group principles. [8] So Kitchen had connections of one sort or another with both of the founders of A.A., with Bill W. directly, but indirectly with Dr. Bob too. This is part of what makes Kitchen's book so important for understanding early A.A. ______________________________ NOTES: [1] Victor Constant Kitchen, "I Was a Pagan" (New York: Harper and Brothers, 1934). There is an edition available on the internet at www.stepstudy.org www dot stepstudy dot org). [2] From Dick B. (Kihei, Hawaii), based on his researches. Dick is the author of a number of books on A.A. and the Oxford Group, including Dick B., "The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous" (Seattle, Washington: Glen Abbey Books, 1992) and Dick B., "The Oxford Group and Alcoholics Anonymous" (Seattle, Washington: Glen Abbey Books, 1992). [3] The Big Book = "Alcoholics Anonymous," 4th edit. (New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, 2001 [1st edit. 1939]), pp. 8-13. "Pass It On: The Story of Bill Wilson and How the A.A. Message Reached the World" (New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, 1984), pp. 87, 98, 111-115. [4] "Pass It On" pp. 116-119 and 127. [5] From Dick B.'s researches. [6] Kitchen was born in 1891, according to the standard bibliographies used by American university libraries. Bill Wilson was born on November 26, 1895. [7] Dick B. (Kihei, Hawaii) was told this by Oxford Group members from the 1930's when he was interviewing them. [8] "Pass It On" pp. 53-60. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3306. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about Clyde Bertram "Freeman" From: Jean Cottel . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 12:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have come across a booklet called "Stand Tall Again," written under the pen name of "Freeman." It is signed in the front "Clyde Bertram, 'Freeman'". No date on it, it is a story of getting sober in AA. Information? Jean Cottel jcottel@earthlink.net (jcottel at earthlink.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3307. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital From: gbaa487 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 10:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I understand that Bill W.'s first three trips to Towns Hospital were paid for by his brother-in-law, Dr. Strong. Who paid for his fourth trip, in December 1934? Thanks, George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3308. . . . . . . . . . . . Use of Dash in First Step From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 10:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When discussing the First Step in meetings, a local pedant insists that Bill W. put the dash, or, as he says, line separator, there on purpose to signify that both phrases of the Step have equal importance. My problem with this is several-fold. Bill was not that accomplished a writer, at least at this point in his life, and if what he tells us of the origin of the steps in "Twelve Steps in Thirty Minutes" is true, I doubt if the intricacies of English grammar and writing were in the forefront of his mind when these were written down. His formal education in English would have been what he had in secondary school and perhaps the semester of college he spent at Norwich. I am a product of a New England prep school and they weren't teaching those distinctions fifty years ago. I also scanned about fifty contiguous pages of the Big Book counting dashes/hyphens/line separators and semi-colons. I chose semi-colons as one could pick them out without having to read the text. There was an equal amount of each, roughly thirty-five, or one each on every page-and-a-half. This indicates [not proves-indicates] that these dashes, etc., were put in randomly along with semi-colons and perhaps some other devices to avoid using the same thing over and over. Bill has said that he alternated words in several instances towards this same end. Another problem I have with the pedant's assertion is that I see no indication from the founders and those who helped write the Big Book that it was intended to be studied in this detail. I live in the Bible Belt and there is among some people a mind set that every word sprang off Bill W's pencil at the direct order of God Himself., but that's a different topic. I am discussing history here, not recovery. I am not arguing that the two parts of the First Step are not of equal importance but rather that the argument about the dash/line separator is invalid. I would also note that over the years I have not heard this assertion from anyone else nor have I read it in any A.A. book or on any of the many A.A. related sites out there on the internet. I suspect it came from a circuit speaker. I would just like some feedback from those better versed than I as to the substance of the assertion. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3309. . . . . . . . . . . . silkworth''s letter From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/2/2006 1:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi history lovers, could you please tell us why this part of Dr. Silkworth's second letter was in the original manuscript of the Big Book, but taken out when the book went to the printers. "Then there are those who are never properly adjusted to life, who are the so-called neurotics. The prognosis of this type is unfavorable." Thank you for your help in this mattter. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3310. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe and Charlie tapes online From: K D Dew . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/7/2006 5:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A while back I stumbled upon a link that had a series of 9 real audio recordings of Joe and Charlie and the big book study along with a word document transcription of that session. Unfortunately, I had a hard drive crash and I'm unable to locate the backup that I made. If anyone knows the link, please send it to me at my e-mail address: Kddew_md@bardstowncable.net (Kddew_md at bardstowncable.net) Kevin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3311. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: Mike Aycock . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/6/2006 1:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a boxed set which includes Bill W. (AA), Dr. Bob (AA), and Lois W. (Al-anon). On this CD however Lois just has a few words to say. I do know that there are a few recordings by her. If you need more info on this you can probably check with James M. at: JamesTapes@aol.com (JamesTapes at aol.com). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3312. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 1:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of K D Dew Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 5:24 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Joe and Charlie tapes online A while back I stumbled upon a link that had a series of 9 real audio recordings of Joe and Charlie and the big book study along with a word document transcription of that session. Unfortunately, I had a hard drive crash and I'm unable to locate the backup that I made. If anyone knows the link, please send it to me at my e-mail address: Kddew_md@bardstowncable.net (Kddew_md at bardstowncable.net) Kevin IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3313. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Billy-Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 12:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Joe and Charlie tapes promote the myth that early AA's had a higher success rate, and that by returning to the mythical "old way" of working the AA program, AA can reduce the relapse rate and get more people sober. The truth is the relapse rate and failure rate in early AA was extremely high. BiLL W. admits this in his memorial speech at Dr. Bob's funeral and Francis Hartigan points this out in his biography of Bill W. I don't dislike the Joe and Charlie tapes but I do dislike the fact that they continue to be on a crusade to return AA to a mythical time that never existed in the first place. Sincerely, Jim F. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3314. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Jan L. Robinson . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 7:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a great Joe and Charlie site. Here is the address http://kischat.com/bigbook/joeandcharlie.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3315. . . . . . . . . . . . V. C. Kitchen''s obituary (Oxford Group author) From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2006 4:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One of our AAHistoryLovers, reference librarian Charlie C., has come up with exactly the kind of information I was looking for: ___________________________________ Obituary in the New York Times, January 30, 1975, p. 37. KITCHEN -- Victor Constant, son of the late Dr. and Mrs. J. M. W. Kitchen of East Orange, N.J., born New York City, April 9, 1891, died at home in Cabool, Missouri, Jan. 29, 1975. Husband of Elsie Rodman Kitchen, father of Beverly K. Almond of Bloomfield, N.J., Myra K. Prindle, Redding, Conn., Hope K. Ayer, Cabool. Nine grandchildren and five great-grandchildren. Attended Carteret Academy, East Orange High School, Stevens Institute of Technology, Columbia School of Journalism. Advertising executive, Doyle, Kitchen and McCormick, N.Y.C. Since 1934, full time with Oxford Group and Moral Re-Armament. Author of the book, "I Was A Pagan." Gathering of gratitude at his home, Route 2, Cabool, Mo., 3 P.M., Saturday, Feb. 1. Eventual interment, Gilmantown, N.H. In lieu of flowers, family suggests remembrance to Up With People, 3103 No. Campbell Ave., Tucson, Ariz. 85719. ___________________________________ This information was in response to Message 3305, from Glenn C., on "V. C. Kitchen and the Oxford Group" "I have been doing research on one of the important Oxford Group books, V. C. Kitchen's "I Was a Pagan," for a book which I am writing .... If any members of the AAHistoryLovers can provide me with any additional information about V. C. Kitchen's life, I would greatly appreciate it." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3316. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 9:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Billy-Bob and Jim, The Joe and Charlie Big Book studies that I have attended in the past were nothing like you suggested in your response. They were keeping it very simple and didn't seem to be on any crusade except that of actually having you read the book for yourself. Then again, I haven't been to one in ten years..maybe their message has changed? Doug B. Riverside, CA (dougb at aahistory.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3317. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: serenityodaat . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2006 11:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hiya Jim! This is from the foreword to the second edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous": "While the internal difficulties of our adolescent period were being ironed out, public acceptance of A.A. grew by leaps and bounds. For this there were two principal reasons: the large number of recoveries, and reunited homes. These made their impressions everywhere. Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn’t want the program. But great numbers of these - about two out of three - began to return as time passed." - page xix and xx When I sum this text up I get a recovery rate of approx. 90%. And this is A.A. in general. The Cleveland area showed a 100% recovery rate for a long period of time. Kindest Regards from Sweden with Love! Anders B Recovered alcoholic by the Grace of God ______________________________ Note from the moderator: In this group (unlike an AA chat group, of which there are many) we're trying to keep away from just people giving their opinions on things, no matter how heartfelt their convictions. This message however centers on a question of fact. Anders has cited a quotation from the foreword to the Big Book, and that involves a matter of historical fact. One can also come up with a number of other statements from the early period saying things quite similar to this. The key question is, what does the above statement actually mean, factually? The crucial clause in the passage which Anders quoted is one which people often overlook: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried." Go back and read that quotation from the foreword to the Big Book, and notice that phrase. That quotation says that 50% of the people who "really tried" got sober. But how many does it write off as people who didn't "really try"? There is one place where Bill W. says that 3 or 4 out of every 5 people who came to their AA meetings, decided after just a few meetings that this program was not for them, and disappeared. If 80% of the people who came to a few meetings (4 out of 5) disappeared after a short period of time, because "they didn't really want to try," there were only 20% left after that point. If only 50% of these actually got sober, that was a success rate of only 10%, if we calculate these figures the way they are calculated in analyzing modern AA statistics. Arthur S. and Tom E. have been going through all the early data which they can find, and they have come to the conclusion that early AA almost certainly had a much better than 10% success rate. Bill Wilson was probably being overly pessimistic when he said that 3 or 4 out of every 5 people disappeared after a few meetings. But we have a large number of statements from the early period making it clear that they were also most definitely not achieving anything nearly approaching a 50% success rate, if we count all parts of the U.S. and Canada, and everybody who had some kind of brief contact with AA. How about modern AA in the U.S. and Canada? The best analysis of that data that I have seen is the one which was given in Message 2379, which I attack to the bottom of this posting. Just like in early AA, we have large numbers of people in the modern period who come to a few meetings, but then disappear. Nowadays, 53% of the people who come to a few AA meetings do not make it through to the end of their third month. But of those who do make it past the three month mark, 56% of those will be able to make it successfully through their first year. The main thing is to quit comparing apples and oranges. The early AA figures, as in the passage which Anders quotes, regularly make the claim that 50% of those who "really tried" ending up being able to stay sober the first time through the program. That is quite correct. By comparison, the modern AA figures show that 56% of those who start attending AA meetings and make it past their first three months -- these are the ones whom the old timers would say "really tried" -- end up making it successfully to the end of their first year. To my reckoning, that is fundamentally the same kind of basic success rate, both then and now, a roughly 50% success rate back then among those who "really tried," and a roughly 56% success rate now among those who "really tried." Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana ______________________________ Message 2379 From: ny-aa@att.net Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:56 am Subject: Success vs. Gloom-and-Doom ------------------------------- [MODERATOR'S SUMMARY OF THE DATA GIVEN BELOW: 56% of those who stay three months are still active in AA at the end of a year. That first year is the hardest: the retention rates dramatically improve for those who have earned their one-year chip. The current U.S. population (U.S. Census Bureau) is 296 million, with around 220 million over eighteen years of age. In the data given below, the NIAAA estimates that roughly 8% of the U.S. population over age 18 abuse alcohol (17.6 million out of 220 million), but that there are only 7.9 million true alcoholics over eighteen years of age in the U.S., which is 3.6% of the population over eighteen years of age. With roughly 1 million AA members, that means that around 12 to 13% of these genuine alcoholics (about one out of eight) is in AA at this point.] ------------------------------- FROM: There is a tendency of some observers to offer a pessimistic view of A.A. today. This becomes the basis for advocating return to the practices of some time in the past. Often, they back this up with a misreading of one particular graph in a summary of the 1977 through 1989 Triennial Surveys. "Percent of Those Coming to AA Within the First Year Who Have Remained the Indicated Number of Months." It graphed the "Month" and "Dist" (distribution) columns here. Note the "Dist" column adds up to 100. It is NOT a retention percentage. For every 100 people surveyed with under a year, 13% were in their 2nd month and 9% were in their 4th month. The "New" column I added is scaled to show retention. The "3mo" column tracks retention after the usual introductary period when, presumably, only "real alcoholics" (about half) will stay. Month Dist . New . 3mo 1 ... 19 ... 100 2 ... 13 .... 68 3 ... 10 .... 53 4 .... 9 .... 47 . 100<=== Over 3 months 5 .... 8 .... 42 .. 89 6 .... 7 .... 42 .. 83 7 .... 7 .... 36 .. 77 8 .... 6 .... 34 .. 72 9 .... 6 .... 32 .. 68 10 ... 6 .... 30 .. 64 11 ... 6 .... 28 .. 60 12 ... 5 .... 26 .. 56 The Dist(1)=19 does NOT mean that "81% dropped out in a month." Dist(3)=10 does NOT mean that "90% leave within three months." And Dist(12)=5 does NOT mean that "95 abandon active participation in AA inside of a year." What it does show is that 56% of those who stay three months are still active in A.A. at the end of a year. Other Survey results show substantially better retention rates after the first year. Here is a typical example of misinterpretation of the table. > "Those of us who have survived in A.A. for a > good many years know for a certainty the dire > failure statistics of today -- statistics reported > by A.A.'s own service structure: > 81% of new members drop out in a month; > 90% leave within three months; and > 95% abandon the active participation in AA inside > of a year." That's just not true. Another misreading of statistics is to forget that not everyone who shows up at an A.A. meeting is an alcoholic. And not everyone with "a drinking problem" is an alcoholic (yet) either. For example, in 2002 the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism said that there were 9.7 million "alcohol abusers" and 7.9 million "alcohol dependent people" over age eighteen. There are clear definitions for these two categories. Only the 7.9 million are what A.A. calls "real alcoholics." These NIAAA numbers are misquoted as: > "And in America, there are less than a million > AAs at any given time out of an estimated > eighteen million alcoholics in all." Eighteen million is the total of "real alcoholics" and "a certain type of hard drinker." Further, most alcoholics have never tried or even visited Alcoholics Anonymous and have never made any serious attempt at recovery through any other means. With that in mind, one million sober American AAs is rather impressive. It also shows the need to reach out and invite more alcoholics to try Alcoholics Anonymous. Let's hope the pessimistic message of gloom-and-doom doesn't scare away and discourage the rest of those who need help. ------------------------------- [ADDITIONAL NOTE BY MODERATOR: In early AA, they often said that 50% of those (as they put it) "who made a serious effort" in AA got sober the first time they tried. Careful reading of the early documents and interviews with old timers makes it clear that they were not counting those who came to a few meetings but then fizzled out when they gave their 50% success rate. When early groups gave their membership figures, they usually made a rough-and-ready but clear distinction between the numbers of those at their weekly meetings who were just coming to a few meetings at that point and the numbers of those who were much more committed members. So early success rates were not actually all that much different from the present success rate. AA is still extraordinarily effective today, just as it was in the old days, particularly when we remember that alcoholism has always been the third leading cause of death in the United States ever since the 1930's: a fifty percent remission rate for what is frequently a fatal disease is medically impressive by any standards.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3318. . . . . . . . . . . . The Exact Quote from Francis Hartigan''s Book In Regard To Early AA''s Success From: backtobasicsbillybob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2006 1:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "We have to wonder why both the Wilson's and the Smiths did not simply give up. Today the nations best treatment centers report success rates ranging from 25 percent to 50 percent. During Bill's stay in Akron, he and Bob calculated their success rate to be about 5 percent, and among the few who seemed to catch on, not all of them were able to maintain consistent sobriety. The first edition of AA's Big Book, published in 1939, contains the personal recovery stories of many of AA's earliest members. Some years later, Bill made notations in the first copy of the book to come off the press, indicating which of the individuals portrayed therein had stayed sober. A good 50 percent had not." Francis Hartigan, Bill W., Pages 91-92 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3319. . . . . . . . . . . . The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 From: backtobasicsbillybob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2006 2:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "You haven't any conception these days of how much failure we had. How you had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait. Yes, the discouragement's were very great but some did stay sober and some very tough ones at that." Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob's Memorial Speech, Nov. 1952, At The 24th Street Club in New York City, New York. To Thine Own Self Be True, Billy-Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3320. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Use of Dash in First Step From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 2:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages from Ernest Kurtz, James Blair, Tim T., Mackley, Robert Stonebraker, and mrjocisoo7 on the dash used as punctuation in the middle of the first step. ______________________________ From: Ernest Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) On Bill W's intentions in writing AA's First Step: Bill commented in several letters, usually to individuals inquiring about the distinction between "defects of character" and "shortcomings" in Steps Six and Seven, along the lines that he had no such ideas in mind as he wrote those Steps, but that he thought it wonderful that people found so much in them. My reading of some of the drafts of Bill's AAGV articles, later collected in *The Language of the Heart,* inclines me to suspect he would have said something similar about portions of the AA Big Book. ernie k. ______________________________ From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) What is historical about the proper use of English grammar? Bill may not of been up there with Einstein but he did have some command of the English language. "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol (end of thought) - (new thought) that our lives had become unmanaageable." We need to stick to reading the black stuff and leave the white stuff alone. Jim ______________________________ From: Tim T. (pvttimt at aol.com) Tim T., here, an alky. How interesting! My grand-sponsor Bob Anderson "ran" our meeting in which I got sober finally in 1978. At the time he had 25 years, having sobered up in Cleveland in 1953. His sponsor was an iceman named Ed S. who in turn sobered up on the Cleveland-Akron AA axis. Bob has been dead for 7-8 years now, having finished his aa career in southern California. My grand-sponsor taught us stuff that isn't exactly in the big book, but he claimed was the "original" way it was taught in the early days in northern Ohio. It included his description of the "dash in the First Step!" And he taught us just as you described it! Another bit of "original" lore he taught us was that the Second Step is found in the big book between the ABC's and the Third Step prayer. Right after the ABC's it says: "Being convinced, we were at Step Three, which is that we decided to turn our will and our life over to God as we understood Him. Just what do we mean by that, and just what do we do?" Bob taught us that this means that in order to be convinced, we must work Step Two, and that the discussion that follows is therefore Step Two. Then, just before the Third Step prayer, it says, "We were now at Step Three." Bob would say to us, "How can you NOW be at Step Three, if what went before wasn't Step Two?" And it kind of all made sense to us, how the preceding discussion about running the show, being the director, selfishness and self-centeredness, troubles of our own making, etc, etc, was largely a description of the insanity of Step Two. His point was that our thinking is still screwed up even when we are dry. Made sense to me. And it was very helpful to me in working through my early sobriety. I guess those of us around today will never really appreciate the apparent wide diversity of opinion and approaches taken in the early days. One also has to remember that there weren't very many at that time. I'd imagine that some millions of folks have come in, stayed, gone back out, whatever over the last 70-ish years. It makes this forum valuable in appreciating that wide range of opinions. Thanks for your subject. Tim. ______________________________ mackleyhome@aol.com (mackleyhome at aol.com) Tommy, I suggest that you check a high school English Text for that time period. You might well find that the ninth punctuation mark was the DASH. It's most common usage was to indicate "end of complete thought" DASH or -- "beginning of new and somehow related thought." It was on having this pointed out to me that I realized for the first time that my life was unmanageable because of my drinking, not the reverse. As to Bill's education, didn't he had two advanced degrees? And you use the word pedant as if it were a bad thing. Just thought you might be interested. Mackley Rayville LA. ______________________________ From: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212@insightbb.com) Dear Tommy, Your point is well taken on Bill's punctuation skills at but it is good to remember that other well educated (in writing) people had to do with the changing from the ‘final draft' to the first printing, first edition, Big Book, e.g.: Mar (?), The much changed book manuscript was turned over to Tom Uzzell. He was a friend of Hank P, an editor at Collier's and a member of the NYU faculty. The manuscript was variously estimated as 600 to 1,200 pages (including personal stories). Uzzell reduced it to approximately 400 pages. Most cuts came from the personal stories, which had also been edited by Jim S (The News Hawk) a journalist from Akron, OH. (AACOA 164, BW-FH 126, PIO 203) Silkworth and Dr Tiebout offered similar advice. (AACOA 167-168 NG 67-77) The dash: I have always thought the dash simply completes the sentence, e.g.: "She was very smart - she got straight ‘A's" Or powerless - unmanageable. This means to me that the fact my life may be unmanageable today has little to do with the fact that I drank alcoholically a long time ago. Thanks for the subject, Bob S, from Indiana ______________________________ From: mrjocisoo7@aol.com (mrjocisoo7 at aol.com) The detailed study of the big book allows us to really stay busy. But also help us target the very book that has helped millions of people. I am pro study in detail. It helps centers me. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3321. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question about Clyde Bertram "Freeman" From: John Pine . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 2:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I heard Clyde speak at a conference in Pennsylvania about six or seven years ago...I was most struck by his ability (need?) to recite "How it Works" from memory. He was then more than 50 years sober. He was also pitching his book, which didn't carry his real name due to the anonymity tradition. I believe he was a carpenter through most of his drinking, and became a certfied addiction counselor after he got sober. John On 4/10/06, Jean Cottel wrote: > I have come across a booklet called "Stand Tall > Again," written under the pen name of "Freeman." > It is signed in the front "Clyde Bertram, 'Freeman'". > No date on it, it is a story of getting sober in AA. > > Information? > > > Jean Cottel > jcottel@earthlink.net > (jcottel at earthlink.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3322. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital From: John S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 7:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As I read the literature (especially ‘The Doctor's Opinion') the first page of the first of the two letters on page xxv (4th ed) it states clearly: "In the course of his third treatment he acquired certain ideas concerning a possible means of recovery." It has always been my understanding that he only made 3 trips to Charlie Town's hospital. In ‘Bill's Story' on page 7 he describes what I believe to be his first trip to Town's when he says: "My brother-in-law is a physician, and through his kindness and that of my mother I was placed in a nationally-known hospital for the mental and physical rehabilitation of alcoholics." Further down on that same page he relates: "After a time I returned to the hospital." On page 8 he relates that: "on ‘Armistice Day' (November 11th) 1934 I was off again." Then finally on page 13 he states: "At the hospital I was separated from alcohol for the last time. Treatment seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium tremens." This would appear to this old drunk to be the ‘third and final' time he went to Town's hospital. Submitted in humility for your consideration, John S. ____________________________________ Original Message: I understand that Bill W.'s first three trips to Towns Hospital were paid for by his brother-in-law, Dr. Strong. Who paid for his fourth trip, in December 1934? Thanks, George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3323. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: Ken Ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2006 8:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 22:19:54 -0700 From: "Mike Aycock" Subject: Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? I thought that someone else would mention this. There is an organization in Minnesota that does an great amount of AA and Al-Anon taping that has several different recordings of Lois W. http://www.gstl.org/ Go to their site map and scroll down to Al-Anon history to start. (Gopher State Tape Library, established 1974). Ken R. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3324. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about "Freeman Carpenter" = Clyde B. From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 1:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is an interesting link I found: http://www.freemancarpenter.com/ Chris B. Raleigh, NC ______________________________ On 4/10/06, Jean Cottel wrote: > I have come across a booklet called "Stand Tall > Again," written under the pen name of "Freeman." > It is signed in the front "Clyde Bertram, 'Freeman'". > No date on it, it is a story of getting sober in AA. > > Information? > > Jean Cottel > jcottel@earthlink.net > (jcottel at earthlink.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3325. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Use of Dash in First Step From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 11:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To again cite the famous and eloquent John Wayne: "Hold on there pilgrims!" If we are going to delve into the mystical and esoteric connotations of punctuation marks then let's get those gol-darn punctuation marks straight by golly. [Citation from a web article by Peter K Sheerin] "When you need a dash, for whatever reason, you need a dash--not a hyphen. There are two kinds of dashes: the n-dash and the m-dash. The n-dash is called that because it is the same width as the letter "n". The m-dash is longer--the width of the letter "m". We use the n-dash for numerical ranges, as in "6-10 years." When we need a dash as a form of parenthetical punctuation in a sentence--as I have been using it rather freely already in this article--we use the m-dash. An "em" is a unit of measurement defined as the point size of the font -- 12 point type uses a 12 point "em." An "en" is one-half of an "em." Now after due consideration of the profound analyses and divinations of the information below, after factoring in such powerful hearsay sources as "my sponsor said" there is only one solid conclusion: Jim B is correct - much is being read that isn't written there. Bill W claims to have drafted the 12 Steps in 30 minutes (and with a sour stomach). Does anyone truly believe that the selection of a single punctuation was all that significant or profound? I absolutely love the way AA members can micro-parse a syllable and/or punctuation mark and conjure up (oh so seriously and profoundly) all kinds of conclusions that rest far more on imagination than information. But what a dull society we would have if folks didn't do it (rule #62 and grin, grin, wink, wink, nudge, nudge). Cheers Arthur PS Bill W was supposed to have been one incomplete class away from a night school law degree. PPS Can anyone divine the mystical significance of my use of a colon in the 1st paragraph? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3326. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox From: Matthugh Bennett . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 1:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was wondering if there was any documentation as to the early members being readers or listeners of Emmet Fox. I have been reading his writings for about a year and find the spirit of the message strong there. I had someone tell me that there was "AA History" where there was no Emmet and then "revised history" with Emmet. I'm more curious from a historical standpoint. Wether they read it or not has not kept it from helping me grow spiritually! ________________________________ From the moderator, Glenn C. -- Yes, Emmet Fox's book was widely read and greatly admired in early A.A., see for example: The Old-Time Akron Reading List: Books for A.A. Beginners (http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html) A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (THE AKRON MANUAL), published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early 1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, and handed out to alcoholics when they were admitted to the hospital for detoxing, gives a list at the end of ten recommended readings for newcomers to A.A., so that they might better understand the spiritual aspects of the program. "The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous": (1) Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book). (2) The Holy Bible (especially the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91). (3) The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. (4) The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee). (5) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. (6) The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). (7) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. (8) Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.). (9) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. (10) The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton. ________________________________ As you can see, Emmet Fox's book was number six on the early Akron AA recommended reading list. It is easy to obtain copies of this book. There is a new edition of Allen's and Drummond's books which Mel B. published in 2004 (see http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html). Allen's book in particular hits many of the same themes which appear in Emmet Fox. This early twentieth century approach to spirituality was called New Thought. Many early AA members were strongly influenced by New Thought in their interpretation of the AA program. The Unity Church of Peace is one group which still teaches a New Thought approach to spirituality. (This is NOT the same as "New Age," which means magic crystals and channeling and all that sort of thiing.) The Detroit Pamphlet (the Detroit version of the Table Leader's Guide, a widely used set of early A.A. beginners lessons) had a long passage from Emmet Fox at the end, called "Staying on the Beam." *** ________________________________ Can any members of the group give us other references to Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount in early AA literature? There was one weekly meeting in early AA in South Bend, Indiana, where I live, which read Emmet Fox's book during their meetings, and insisted that everybody in the AA group be thoroughly familiar with that book. ________________________________ *** STAYING ON THE BEAM, by Emmet Fox (http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html) Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam is produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on this beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, or get his bearings in any other way. As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more. Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some sense of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if outer things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off the beam you are in danger. You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should immediately get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, claiming His Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, and that the promises in the Bible are true today. If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will reach port in safety. Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3327. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 3:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The following is information that was also previously sent to Billy Bob in private and pleasant exchange of emails. I'd like to also submit it [slightly edited] for consideration. It could be reasonably stated that many [who show up at AA meetings] never really [give AA an opportunity] to begin with. That's why [over time] citations of the %50 + 25% = 75% rate by Bill W and others was qualified to only include "of those who really tried."... What is often missing from discussions of successes or failures is that thousands of prospects may show up at AA meetings but only a fraction will go on to decide to give AA's recovery program a try. [It is also reasonable to presume that if zero efforts are put in to AA then zero results will come out of it]. Those that do not decide to give AA a try cannot, and should not, be factored into the success rate calculations without grotesquely distorting it. It would be analogous to trying to measure the effectiveness of a medical procedure by including people who suffer from the medical problem but decide not to seek help from a doctor or a hospital. They at least have to try the medical procedure to asses its effectiveness and so too with AA's recovery program. Bill W frequently attempted to emphasize this consideration but it seems to get obscured. In all likelihood, when discussing success rates, we are indeed talking about a small fraction of those who showed up at meetings or those who were approached in a 12th Step call. It's likely even more severe today given the number of people who are involuntarily sent to AA by courts and others. In a reprint of a November 1949 article in the American Journal of Psychiatry, Bill W wrote "Of alcoholics who stay with us and really try, 50% get sober at once and stay that way, 25% do so after some time and the remainder usually show improvement. But many problem drinkers do quit AA after a brief contact, maybe three or four out of five. Some are too psychopathic or damaged. But the majority have powerful rationalizations yet to be broken down. Exactly this does happen provided they get what AA calls "good exposure" on first contact. Alcohol then builds such a hot fire that they are finally driven back to us, often years later." Note the qualification [in 1949] by Bill W, that the 50-75% "success rate" applies to a subset of about 1-2 prospects out of 5. The remainder of the prospects (3 or 4 out of 5) "quit AA after a brief contact." [from another private email to Billy Bob and others] The topic of "AA success rates" has been of interest to me for quite some time. I believe it suffers from a great deal of anecdotal misinformation, misinterpretation and editorializing and seems to divide itself into two categories: 1. Verifying the popular, and repeated, notion of about a 50% success rate (with about 25% of the "slippers" returning to successfully recover). This has been the prevailing "best guess" of AA's recovery outcomes going back to the late 1930s. From research I've done so far, I believe this is probably a reasonable "best estimate" of AA's success (both early and current AA). The only qualification being that it applies to those who attempt to give AA a try (i.e. you get out of AA what you put into it). 2. Scrutinizing a newer (and quite erroneous) assertion that AA is achieving a 5% or less success rate. This is based on a misinterpretation of a 1989 GSO report examining prior AA membership surveys (see Tom E's AAHistoryLovers posting #2379). The 5% notion is bogus but there is a segment of AA members that not only readily believes it but also attempts to exploit it to support personal agendas. To me, this is one of the biggest disservices AA members are doing to AA today (all of course claiming to rescue AA from itself and its presumed decline). The most historically revisionist, in this 5% [assertion is] the Back to Basics crowd. It is the principle [and very dubious] premise of their existence. Assessment of success rates" is complicated by the fact that, beyond a very limited period of time [and limited scope] in early AA, there is no consistent statistical record keeping backing up an assertion of recovery successes one way or another. Because of AA's autonomous structure, it's a major effort to just get a reasonable estimate of the number of groups much less an estimate of member recovery outcomes. One thing that is important to arriving at an informed conclusion in our forum is that members of AAHistoryLovers retain the opportunity to express their viewpoints and findings irrespective of whether it is popular or unpopular. This way whatever is presented is subjected to both defense and refutation of its validity. As a result, sooner or later the facts will emerge and prevail. This is the same methodology used in the academic arena and it works (warts and all). One of the more difficult issues to reconcile is the case of figurative statements being interpreted literally. For example, Bill W is often cited as having said this or that as if Bill was in possession of hard statistical data when in fact he was simply offering a personal estimate of what he sincerely believed. The same is true for statements in AA literature. In those cases where there is a local study of success and failure, the question arises whether the study can serve to rise to the level of statistical confidence to describe the Fellowship as a whole at the time - or does it simply describe the local area. As a human being, Bill W made errors in his recording of AA history. It was not done to be deceptive or misleading but was only the product of human error. The difficulty is that many in AA take a stand that if something is in the Big Book then it is accorded the same standing as scripture and if something is said by Bill W it is irrefutable. This is when it gets awkward (and sometimes heated). Likewise, the authors of AA literature (Bill W included) are also human and can make human errors in research and reporting. The other difficulty is how to frame fragments of information into proper context. For example, [Billy Bob's citation of Francis Hartigan has a basis of truth but is being taken out of context]. Francis Hartigan, in his book "Bill W" mentions his (Hartigan's) interpretation of the "success rate" that Bill and Bob achieved while Bill was staying with Bob in Akron from May to August 1935. What's missing from the description of this period of time is that Bill and Dr Bob (who also suffered a relapse during the period) had 2 failures and 2 successes. The failures were a Dr McK (mentioned in Bill's autobiography "Bill W My First 40 Years") and Edgar "Eddie" R mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers." The successes were Bill D (AA #3) and Ernie G (albeit a temporary success that would later go the way of Ebby T). However, the main omission, in terms of context, was that the target population of prospects were alcoholics of the type that were written off as hopeless and beyond any help (so that a single success would be remarkable in terms of the typical fatal outcome for these prospects). The other context issue concerns remarks attributed to Bill W at Dr Bob's memorial (and Hartigan's citation as well). [In the talk] Bill qualified that he was referring to the "flying blind" period of AA (so was Hartigan). It would hardly qualify as an appropriate point of reference to characterize AA success or failure. Billy Bob does hit on a point that celebrity (in the case of Joe and Charlie) can vest members with an aura of historical validity when, in fact, they are simply relaying what they believe is true but is lacking in factual demonstration. Clancy I of LA also likes to mention in his talks that most of the members who had their stories printed in the 1st edition Big Book went back to drinking. That too is myth and is completely refuted by Bill W in his introduction to the new stories in the 2nd edition Big Book. But I guess sticking to the facts doesn't always make for an entertaining talk to the circuit speaker folks. .. Finally, and this can't be stressed enough, AA started with 2 members in June 1935 and today has well over 2 million members. That is not a measurement of failure by anybody's benchmark. In between 1935 and today there were tens of millions of alcoholics who recovered and survived thanks to AA and this too is not factored into the assessments of success and failure outcomes. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of backtobasicsbillybob Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:18 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob's Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 "You haven't any conception these days of how much failure we had. How you had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait. Yes, the discouragement's were very great but some did stay sober and some very tough ones at that." Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob's Memorial Speech, Nov. 1952, At The 24th Street Club in New York City, New York. To Thine Own Self Be True, Billy-Bob Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3328. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s talk at Rockland State Hospital From: bludahlia2003 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 4:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anyone know where I might find information about the presentation that Bill W gave to the Board Meeting at Rockland State Hospital (now known as Rockland Psychiatric Center) in 1939? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3329. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Freeman Carpenter From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 8:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Freeman Carpenter" (Clyde B., who is alive, sober -- I believe -- since 1946, and should therefore be anonymous) has his own website, FreemanCarpenter@aol.com, lives in Eastern PA, and has been invited to the History and Archives Gathering in Lebanon PA June 24 2006 -- I don't know if he'll be able to be there, as he is 86 years old and lives 90 or so miles away. -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3330. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 9:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John Bill had 4 admissions to Towns Hospital. Source References (with page numbers) AACOA - AA Comes of Age BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen GB - Getting Better LOH - Language of the Heart LR - Lois Remembers NG - Not God NW - New Wine PIO - Pass It On RAA - The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous (formerly AA the Way It Began) 1933 Autumn, Lois, now earning $22.50 a week at Macy's ($317 today) turned to her brother-in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, who arranged, and paid for, Bill W's first admission to Towns Hospital. Bill was subjected to the "belladonna cure." The regimen primarily involved "purging and puking" aided by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174) 1934 Jul (?), Bill W's second admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V Strong). Bill met Dr Silkworth for the first time. Silkworth explained the obsession and allergy of alcoholism but Bill started drinking again almost immediately upon discharge. Bill was unemployable, $50,000 in debt ($675,000 today) suicidal and drinking around the clock. (AACOA 52, PIO 106-108, BW-40 114-117, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 50-55) Sep 17 (date provided by Ron C. of NSW, Australia. - from an Archives copy of the Towns Hospital admission record). This was Bill W's third admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V Strong). Dr Silkworth pronounced Bill a hopeless drunk and informed Lois that Bill would likely have to be committed. Bill left the hospital a deeply frightened man and sheer terror kept him sober. He found a little work on Wall St, which began to restore his badly shattered confidence. (PIO 106-109, LR 87, AACOA vii, 56, BW-RT 176-177, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 4-5, 54-55) Nov 11, Armistice Day. Bill W went to play golf and got drunk and injured. Lois began investigating sanitariums in which to place Bill. (AACOA 56-58, BW-FH 56) Dec 11, after a drunken visit to Calvary Mission, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got financial help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31). Cheers Arthur ____________________________________ Original Message: I understand that Bill W.'s first three trips to Towns Hospital were paid for by his brother-in-law, Dr. Strong. Who paid for his fourth trip, in December 1934? Thanks, George IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3331. . . . . . . . . . . . The Stools and Bottles Talk From: Tommy . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 6:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII While reading the book "Stools and Bottles" I found out it is written from a old series of talks given by AA members using a 3 legged stool and bottles to demostrate character defects. The book mentions it is only using the highlights. Is there anywhere I can get a copy of the whole transcript on paper or the talk on tape. I have searched this board and the net with no luck. Thanks for your time. Tommy H in NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3332. . . . . . . . . . . . New York Metro Meeting Lists From: rrecovery2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2006 10:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In our research for the history of groups in Suffolk County (Long Island, New York, we have found the New York metro meeting lists invaluable. These covered Manhattan and the surrounding boroughs. It is just so difficult tracking them down. General Services Archives has just a few, as is the case with the other New York area Archives. Is anyone aware of stash of these some place? Maybe a private collector? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3333. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Kansas City From: michael oates . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 6:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am a member of the first AA group in Kansas City, that had Black members. It started out as Kansas City inter-racial or the inter-racial group of Kansas City it is now called the Paseo AA group. I was hoping to find someone who came through Kansas City between 1947 and 1951 that rememebers the old inter-racial group. It would go a long way in helping us prepare for our 60th anniversary. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3334. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Early A.A. Success Rate From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/12/2006 7:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Hazelden book "Bill W. My First 40 Years," has a quote from Bill in its Afterword on p. 167, "While the overall A.A. program moved toward stability and maturity, Bill still seemed obsessed with those who somehow weren't weren't able to make A.A. work for them. Warning of the dangers of pride and complacency, he challenged A.A. members at A.A.'s thirtieth anniversary meeting with a question: 'What happened to the 600,000 who approached A.A. and left?'" The quote is not attributed in any foot note. I assume he means 600k came to A.A. during its first thirty years and didn't stay sober. My trusty 2nd edition, 7th printing of the Big Book, published in March, I believe, of 1965 states in a footnote on p. xv, "As of 1965, there are over 11,000 groups in over 90 countries with an estimated membership of more than 350,000." A quick and dirty calculation gives a success rate of around 40%, actually 36.8%, but this doesn't include those who came to A.A. and died sober during the first thirty years. We also aren't told where Bill got the 600k number. My problem with all this is in line with what Glenn C. says. Before one starts making statements, one needs to define what one is stating and where the numbers are coming from. Tommy in Baton Rouge. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3335. . . . . . . . . . . . History and Archives Gathering June 24 (Flyer) From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2006 1:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is a copy of the flyer for the June 24 2006 History and Archives Gathering, Lebanon PA. This is the planned program, assuming no changes or withdrawals. MULTI-DISTRICT HISTORY and ARCHIVES GATHERING Saturday June 24th 2006 REGISTRATION, COFFEE AND DOUGHNUTS 8 A.M. - 9 A.M. LIVING AA HISTORY: OLDTIMERS PANEL LEAD SPEAKER CHET H, HUMMELSTOWN PA DLD 4/4/49 EXPERIENCING AA HISTORY: DOING THE STEPS WITH CLARENCE S MITCH K, WASHINGTONVILLE NY PANEL ON WRITING A.A. HISTORY LEAD SPEAKER GLENN C, SOUTH BEND IN LUNCH PANEL ON THE PROPOSED (GSO) AA HISTORY 1955-2000 PANEL ON WRITING AA LOCAL HISTORY: THE FOUNDERS IN EASTERN PA ARCHIVES EXHIBITS FROM EASTERN PA, MARYLAND, NORTH JERSEY, AND THE CLARENCE S. ARCHIVES ST CECILIA'S PARISH HALL 750 STATE DRIVE LEBANON PA 17042 From PA Turnpike exit at Route 72 (Lancaster-Lebanon Exit), take Route 72 North into Lebanon (about 6 miles plus). In Lebanon turn right on Route 422 East at traffic light. Continue to Lincoln Avenue (about half a mile or less). Turn right on Lincoln to Y in road where you take the left fork onto State Drive. St Cecilia's Parish Hall is on the left about a quarter-mile up. From Lancaster take Route 72 (Manheim Pike) North to Lebanon and then as above. From the Northwest, take Route 322 East to I-81 North just outside of Harrisburg. Take I-81 N to Route 934 and go south on Route 934 (away from Fort Indiantown Gap) a short distance to Route 22. Take Route 22 East to Route 72 South. Follow Route 72 South through center of Lebanon to Route 422 East and then as above. From the North on I-81 Exit at Route 72 South through Lebanon to 422 East and then as above. From the East on Route 78 Exit at Route 343. Follow Route 343 (a couple of miles) into Lebanon (N. 7th Street). Turn left on Maple Street. Go about three-fifths of a mile to Lincoln Avenue. Turn right on Lincoln to Y in road and continue left on State Drive as above. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3336. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 10:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When/where I got sober (as they say), all of these were still being suggested as essential reading (as well as the standard AA literature) Big Book and the 12x12, etc, the little Black Book, Red Book and Green Book, and Living Sober. By sponsors and my home group. One of the things I find appalling in too many meetings today is the lack of suggestions that newcomers read the literature. We always gave out a copy of "Living Sober" to all newcomers, whether or not they came back. And sponsors always made sure their sponsees had the Big Book and a copy of the 12x12, at the very least. Jon Markle Raleigh On 4/13/06 1:55 PM, "Matthugh Bennett" wrote: > I was wondering if there was any documentation as > to the early members being readers or listeners of > Emmet Fox. I have been reading his writings for > about a year and find the spirit of the message > strong there. > > I had someone tell me that there was "AA History" > where there was no Emmet and then "revised history" > with Emmet. I'm more curious from a historical > standpoint. Wether they read it or not has not > kept it from helping me grow spiritually! > ________________________________ > > From the moderator, Glenn C. -- Yes, Emmet Fox's > book was widely read and greatly admired in early > A.A., see for example: > > The Old-Time Akron Reading List: > Books for A.A. Beginners > > (http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html) > > A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (THE AKRON MANUAL), > published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early > 1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, and > handed out to alcoholics when they were admitted to > the hospital for detoxing, gives a list at the end > of ten recommended readings for newcomers to A.A., > so that they might better understand the spiritual > aspects of the program. > > "The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has > helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous": > > (1) Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book). > > (2) The Holy Bible (especially the Sermon on the Mount > in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians > 13, and Psalms 23 and 91). > > (3) The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. > > (4) The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing > Co., Milwaukee). > > (5) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. > > (6) The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). > > (7) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. > > (8) Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. > Ligon (Macmillan Co.). > > (9) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. > > (10) The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton. > ________________________________ > > As you can see, Emmet Fox's book was number six on > the early Akron AA recommended reading list. It is > easy to obtain copies of this book. > > There is a new edition of Allen's and Drummond's > books which Mel B. published in 2004 (see > http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html). > > Allen's book in particular hits many of the same > themes which appear in Emmet Fox. This early > twentieth century approach to spirituality was > called New Thought. Many early AA members were > strongly influenced by New Thought in their > interpretation of the AA program. The Unity > Church of Peace is one group which still teaches > a New Thought approach to spirituality. > > (This is NOT the same as "New Age," which means > magic crystals and channeling and all that sort of > thiing.) > > The Detroit Pamphlet (the Detroit version of the > Table Leader's Guide, a widely used set of early > A.A. beginners lessons) had a long passage from > Emmet Fox at the end, called "Staying on the > Beam." *** > ________________________________ > > Can any members of the group give us other references > to Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount in early AA > literature? > > There was one weekly meeting in early AA in South > Bend, Indiana, where I live, which read Emmet Fox's > book during their meetings, and insisted that > everybody in the AA group be thoroughly familiar > with that book. > ________________________________ > > *** STAYING ON THE BEAM, by Emmet Fox > > (http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html) > > Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam > is produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on > this beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, > or get his bearings in any other way. > As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he > immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more. > Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which > to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some > sense of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if > outer things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off > the beam you are in danger. > You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or > frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should > immediately get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, > claiming His Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, > and that the promises in the Bible are true today. > If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your > own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will > reach port in safety. > Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you. > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3337. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Emmet Fox From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 10:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Sermon On The Mount by Emmet Fox was published in 1934. Both Fox and the book were quite popular among early AA members in both NY and Akron. NY members would also attend Fox's lectures. Dr Bob recommended it for reading for Akron, OH members. Please refer to "New Wine" by Mel B, pages 111-112 and 114 and "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" pages 310-311) The following is from the February 1996 Grapevine Emmet Fox and Alcoholics Anonymous One of the very early recovering alcoholics who worked with co-founder Bill W. was a man named Al, whose mother was secretary to Emmet Fox, a popular lecturer on New Thought philosophy. When the early groups were meeting in New York, members would frequently adjourn after a meeting and go to Steinway Hall to listen to Fox's lecture. To this day there are AA groups that distribute Fox's pamphlets along with Conference-approved AA literature. An account set forth in "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" tells of the influence of Emmet Fox and his classic work, "Sermon on the Mount." An AA old-timer recollected: "The first thing he (Dr. Bob) did was to get Emmet Fox's ‘Sermon on the Mount'....Once when I was working on a woman in Cleveland, I called and asked him what to do for someone who is going into DT's. He told me to give her the medication and he said, ‘When she comes out of it and she decides she wants to be a different woman, get her Drummond's ‘The Greatest Thing in the World.' Tell her to read it through every day for thirty days and she'll be a different woman.' Those were the three main books at the time; that and ‘The Upper Room' and ‘The Sermon on the Mount.'" Perhaps the fundamental contribution of Emmet Fox to Alcoholics Anonymous was the simplicity and power of "The Sermon on the Mount." This book sets forth the basic principles of the New Thought philosophy that "God is the only power, and that evil is insubstantial; that we form our own destiny by our thoughts and our beliefs; that conditions do not matter when we pray; that time and space and matter are human illusions; that there is a solution to every problem; that man is the child of God, and God is perfect good." Central to New Thought philosophy was the perspective which saw that love and personal forgiveness were the keys to fundamental transformation: "Love is by far the most important thing of all. It is the Golden Gate of Paradise. Pray for the understanding of love, and meditate upon it daily. It casts out fear. It is the fulfilling of the Law. It covers a multitude of sins. Love is absolutely invincible." Fox went on to say that forgiveness was an integral part of the Pathway of Love, "which is open to everyone in all circumstances, and upon which you may step at any moment - at this moment if you like - requires no formal introduction, has no conditions whatever. It calls for no expensive laboratory in which to work, because your own daily life, and your ordinary daily surroundings are your laboratory. It needs no reference library, no professional training, no external apparatus of any kind. All it does need is that you should begin steadfastly to expel from your mentality every thought of personal condemnation (you must condemn a wrong action, but not the actor), of resentment for old injuries, and of everything which is contrary to the law of Love. You must not allow yourself to hate either person, or group, or nation, or anything whatever. "You must build-up by faithful daily exercise the true Love-consciousness, and then all the rest of spiritual development will follow upon that. Love will heal you. Love will illumine you." One of the cornerstones of Fox's philosophy was to live but one day at a time, to be responsible for one's own thoughts and to clear up resentments, just as AA was to teach that "resentments are our number one cause of slips." For Fox, one of the most important rules for growth was to live in the present: "Live in today, and do not allow yourself to live in the past under any pretense. Living the past means thinking about the past, rehearsing past events, especially if you do this with feeling...train yourself to be a man or woman who lives one day at a time. You'll be surprised how rapidly conditions will change for the better when you approach this ideal." Emmet Fox emphasized the idea that thoughts are real things, and that one cannot have one kind of mind and another kind of life. According to Fox, if we want to change our lives, then we must change our thoughts first. Many of his simply stated profundities have contributed to an AA philosophy that has transformed the lives of literally two million recovering alcoholics. Igor S., Hartford, Conn. February 1996 AA Grapevine. (c) AA Grapevine, Inc. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matthugh Bennett Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 12:55 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Emmet Fox I was wondering if there was any documentation as to the early members being readers or listeners of Emmet Fox. I have been reading his writings for about a year and find the spirit of the message strong there. I had someone tell me that there was "AA History" where there was no Emmet and then "revised history" with Emmet. I'm more curious from a historical standpoint. Wether they read it or not has not kept it from helping me grow spiritually! ________________________________ From the moderator, Glenn C. -- Yes, Emmet Fox's book was widely read and greatly admired in early A.A., see for example: The Old-Time Akron Reading List: Books for A.A. Beginners (http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html) A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (THE AKRON MANUAL), published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early 1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, and handed out to alcoholics when they were admitted to the hospital for detoxing, gives a list at the end of ten recommended readings for newcomers to A.A., so that they might better understand the spiritual aspects of the program. "The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous": (1) Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book). (2) The Holy Bible (especially the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91). (3) The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond. (4) The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee). (5) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. (6) The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). (7) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. (8) Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.). (9) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. (10) The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton. ________________________________ As you can see, Emmet Fox's book was number six on the early Akron AA recommended reading list. It is easy to obtain copies of this book. There is a new edition of Allen's and Drummond's books which Mel B. published in 2004 (see http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html). Allen's book in particular hits many of the same themes which appear in Emmet Fox. This early twentieth century approach to spirituality was called New Thought. Many early AA members were strongly influenced by New Thought in their interpretation of the AA program. The Unity Church of Peace is one group which still teaches a New Thought approach to spirituality. (This is NOT the same as "New Age," which means magic crystals and channeling and all that sort of thiing.) The Detroit Pamphlet (the Detroit version of the Table Leader's Guide, a widely used set of early A.A. beginners lessons) had a long passage from Emmet Fox at the end, called "Staying on the Beam." *** ________________________________ Can any members of the group give us other references to Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount in early AA literature? There was one weekly meeting in early AA in South Bend, Indiana, where I live, which read Emmet Fox's book during their meetings, and insisted that everybody in the AA group be thoroughly familiar with that book. ________________________________ *** STAYING ON THE BEAM, by Emmet Fox (http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html) Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam is produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on this beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, or get his bearings in any other way. As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more. Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some sense of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if outer things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off the beam you are in danger. You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should immediately get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, claiming His Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, and that the promises in the Bible are true today. If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will reach port in safety. Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3338. . . . . . . . . . . . The "heavy sedative" in Bill''s story (BB p. 7) From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 11:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi history lovers, can anyone tell us what was the "heavy sedative" that was prescribed to Bill on page 7 in the Big Book where he said: "Next day found me drinking both gin and sedative. This combination soon landed me on the rocks." Thanks for you help in this matter. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3339. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W.''s talk at Rockland State Hospital From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 8:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As I recall (though 30 years is a long time), there was a copy of that presentation in the AA archives. Someone at GSO may be able to speak to that. ernie kurtz __________________________ bludahlia2003 wrote: > Anyone know where I might find information about > the presentation that Bill W gave to the Board > Meeting at Rockland State Hospital (now known as > Rockland Psychiatric Center) in 1939? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3340. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 5:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Matt, I asked Bill Wilson about Emmet Fox and he said they even attended his lectures in New York in the 1930s. He also said they read The Sermon on the Mount. I found my own copy of it in Pontiac, Michigan, in February, 1951, and have read it ever since. Mike E., the second member of AA in Detroit, even told of reading it while he was still getting well from his last drunk; he had to rest it on pillow to hold it steady! I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against literature that isn't conference-approved has eliminated this any several other good books from most meetings. I recommend it whenever I can and sometimes mention it in talks. Mel Barger ___________________________ Note from the moderator: See Mel's little article on Emmet Fox at http://hindsfoot.org/Fox1.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3341. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox mentioned by name in the Big Book From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 7:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr. Earl Marsh, in his Big Book story "Physician Heal Thyself," mentions Emmet Fox's then, and still, popular book "SERMON ON THE MOUNT." See page 348 of the third edition of the Big Book. Bob S., from Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3342. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Ricky Holcomb . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 8:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree, I know Joe personally and have never viewed him as a person who is trying to get anybody to believe that the success rate in AA was any different than now--what I have learned from him is that he feels strongly about trying to get alcoholics to really try the steps and have a life changing experience rather than just attending meetings and trying to not drink. Ricky H. ________________________________ Doug B." wrote: Billy-Bob and Jim, The Joe and Charlie Big Book studies that I have attended in the past were nothing like you suggested in your response. They were keeping it very simple and didn't seem to be on any crusade except that of actually having you read the book for yourself. Then again, I haven't been to one in ten years..maybe their message has changed? Doug B. Riverside, CA Ricky Holcomb IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3343. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Exact Quote from Francis Hartigan''s Book In Regard To Early AA''s Success From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 1:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ooops! I attached the wrong reply to Billy Bob's posting. Here's the correction. I exchanged the info below with Billy Bob in a separate email and would like to offer it for consideration: Hi Billy Bob I have Hartigan's book. The portion you emphasize illustrates the matter of context I tried to address. Hartigan actually supports the claim that 50% initially made it yet seems to try to portray a doom and gloom scenario for early 1939. Hartigan should also have cited Bill W's comments on the matter in 1955 in the 2nd edition Big Book. 29 stories were included in the 1st printing of the 1st edition Big Book. 22 of them were dropped in the 2nd edition. There is a myth in AA that the 22 stories were removed because the members had returned to drinking. It's not true. In the introduction to the personal stories in the 2nd edition Big Book Bill W wrote: "When first published in 1939, this book carried 29 stories about alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with the greatest number of readers, the new 2nd Edition (1955) carries a considerably enlarged story section, as above described. Concerning the original 29 case histories, it is a deep satisfaction to record, as of 1955, that 22 have apparently made full recovery from their alcoholism. Of these, 15 have remained completely sober for an average of 17 years each, according to our best knowledge and belief." In the introduction to the "Pioneers of AA Section" in the 2nd edition Bill W went on to write: "Dr Bob and the 12 men and women who here tell their stories were among the early members of AA's first groups. Though 3 have passed away of natural causes, all have maintained complete sobriety for periods ranging from 15 to 19 years as of this date 1955. Today, hundreds of additional AA members can be found who have had no relapse for at least 15 years. All of these then are the pioneers of AA. They bear witness that release from alcoholism can really be permanent." From the figures in Bill W's introduction, approximately 75% of the early members who had their stories in the 1st edition Big Book were sober as of AA's 20th anniversary (1955). Even if half didn't make it, as asserted by Hartigan, the percentage that did is still consistent with early claims of a 50% success rate. The 1st edition story authors is the only fully qualified population that demonstrates the claims that 50% made it and another 25% sobered up again after returning to drinking. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of backtobasicsbillybob Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 12:51 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote from Francis Hartigan's Book In Regard To Early AA's Success "We have to wonder why both the Wilson's and the Smiths did not simply give up. Today the nations best treatment centers report success rates ranging from 25 percent to 50 percent. During Bill's stay in Akron, he and Bob calculated their success rate to be about 5 percent, and among the few who seemed to catch on, not all of them were able to maintain consistent sobriety. The first edition of AA's Big Book, published in 1939, contains the personal recovery stories of many of AA's earliest members. Some years later, Bill made notations in the first copy of the book to come off the press, indicating which of the individuals portrayed therein had stayed sober. A good 50 percent had not." Francis Hartigan, Bill W., Pages 91-92 Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3344. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 1:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I exchanged the info below with Billy Bob in a separate email and would like to offer it for consideration: Hi Billy Bob I have Hartigan's book. The portion you emphasize illustrates the matter of context I tried to address. Hartigan actually supports the claim that 50% initially made it yet seems to try to portray a doom and gloom scenario for early 1939. Hartigan should also have cited Bill W's comments on the matter in 1955 in the 2nd edition Big Book. 29 stories were included in the 1st printing of the 1st edition Big Book. 22 of them were dropped in the 2nd edition. There is a myth in AA that the 22 stories were removed because the members had returned to drinking. It's not true. In the introduction to the personal stories in the 2nd edition Big Book Bill W wrote: "When first published in 1939, this book carried 29 stories about alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with the greatest number of readers, the new 2nd Edition (1955) carries a considerably enlarged story section, as above described. Concerning the original 29 case histories, it is a deep satisfaction to record, as of 1955, that 22 have apparently made full recovery from their alcoholism. Of these, 15 have remained completely sober for an average of 17 years each, according to our best knowledge and belief." In the introduction to the "Pioneers of AA Section" in the 2nd edition Bill W went on to write: "Dr Bob and the 12 men and women who here tell their stories were among the early members of AA's first groups. Though 3 have passed away of natural causes, all have maintained complete sobriety for periods ranging from 15 to 19 years as of this date 1955. Today, hundreds of additional AA members can be found who have had no relapse for at least 15 years. All of these then are the pioneers of AA. They bear witness that release from alcoholism can really be permanent." From the figures in Bill W's introduction, approximately 75% of the early members who had their stories in the 1st edition Big Book were sober as of AA's 20th anniversary (1955). Even if half didn't make it, as asserted by Hartigan, the percentage that did is still consistent with early claims of a 50% success rate. The 1st edition story authors is the only fully qualified population that demonstrates the claims that 50% made it and another 25% sobered up again after returning to drinking. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of backtobasicsbillybob Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:18 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob's Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 "You haven't any conception these days of how much failure we had. How you had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait. Yes, the discouragement's were very great but some did stay sober and some very tough ones at that." Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob's Memorial Speech, Nov. 1952, At The 24th Street Club in New York City, New York. To Thine Own Self Be True, Billy-Bob Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3345. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Use of Dash in First Step From: michael oates . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 6:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages from Michael Oates, George Brown, Tom E., and Rick Tompkins ______________________________ From: michael oates (moates57 at yahoo.com) A dash is an extra long comma used to hold the pause before adding the new phrase or thought. That being said maybe Bill really wanted us to think about the preceding phrase before tackling the prase that follows the dash. It seems that too many of us are dealing with unmanageability rather than alcoholism a dash is not an arrow. ______________________________ From: george brown (gbaa487 at yahoo.com) i might as well add to this discussion. the use of a dash is to "emphasize and/or explain the main clause." so. in this case it is explaining and emphasizing the fact that we are "powerless over alcohol." to my understanding it is explaining that when we are powerless our lives become unmanageable; it is also emphasizing that fact. ______________________________ From: Tom E. (ny-aa at att.net) Personally, I consider the dash--typists sometimes called it a double-dash--to be significant in Step 1. IT IS, "1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable." NOT, "1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable." NOT, "1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol because our lives had become unmanageable." NOT, "1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, therefore our lives had become unmanageable." On the other hand, we are discussing the punctuation "Bill chose" without asking who actually chose the punctuation. As historians, we need to look further. What was on his yellow pad when he dictated it to Ruth Hock? Is that available to researchers? Was Bill in the habit of dictating every comma, period, dash, and paragraph break or did he just talk and leave it to Ruth to get something meaningful out of whatever he said? I believe it was the latter. So, to what extent did Bill adjust what Ruth typed to make punctuation and other details exactly the way he wanted? Even the draft that was distributed was the result of much debate and compromise. We can't say that every jot and tittle is the Revealed Word of Bill. Actually, part of the strength of the A.A. Big Book is that it is a consensus document. Every member at the time and some outside friends had a say in what was in the book. Tom E Wappingers Falls, NY ______________________________ From: ricktompkins@comcast.net (ricktompkins at comcast.net) Hi Art, we are in esoteric and mystical hot water, obviously... The colon use is correct in your posting; the colon also could work in the dash-ing of Step One, as could i.e. or e.g. The 1930s readers probably could have handled any of them and future generations (i.e. us) would have analyzed it as has gone on in the past few posts here. The dash separating the two phrases in Step One is an esoteric emphasis, dontcha think? Perhaps the original linotype operators enjoyed its use, too. Hearing the step read as a part of "How It Works" the dash sounds like a simple comma--thankfully no one comes out and says "dash." Reading the text, I always felt that the dash added real impact from the first time I viewed it, and that impact remains powerful to me today. Two distinct concepts in Step One, placed in the same sentence to drive home the idea that the latter results from the former. Imagine that! Esoterically, to me the two phrases work in reverse sequence, too. I tell new prospects to consider the dash as an equal sign, and the distributive math principle kicks in as reinforcement. No balance beam or seesaw analysis, please, it might bring on a mysticism angle that's absent from this Step. Cheers to all, hope a 2006 Springtime brings great new discoveries to us! Rick, Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3346. . . . . . . . . . . . Monroe, Michigan From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2006 3:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Over the last few years there has been an off again and on again effort to find out the history of AA in Monroe, Michigan. From what we can tell no one has ever actually written down anything on it. We have some names and an idea of when and where the first meetings were held. But, most of that is sketchy. It would be appreciated if anyone has any information that might be helpful to forward it to me or post it on this message board. Your help is greatly appreciated. tmd [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3347. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2006 10:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 09:02 4/16/2006 , you wrote: >When/where I got sober (as they say), all of these were still being >suggested as essential reading (as well as the standard AA literature) Big >Book and the 12x12, etc, the little Black Book, Red Book and Green Book, and >Living Sober. By sponsors and my home group. Would these books be Richmond Walker's 24 Hours a Day, Webster's Little Red Book and Stools and Bottles? Big Book, 12x12, and Living Sober are self-explanatory. My wife spent her first 18y in NYC and she says they gave out Living Sober to new people. I think that is a great idea. I could pick it up when I was new and read a few pages and was unable to do the same with the Big Book. Tommy H [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3348. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Emmet Fox From: Lee Nickerson . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2006 11:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I surely agree. I was fortunate to be Maine's Archivist for eight years and by what seemed necessity, I began to do the unthinkable - read non-conference approved literature. It enhanced my sobriety and allowed me to do my service job in a much more informative and interesting way. I picked up the habit and have been at it ever since. I just finished a book called Drinking: A Love Story by Caroline Knapp - one of the best personal stories I have read in a long time. As far as AA history goes; Not God, Sister Ignatia:The Angel Of AA, Grateful to Have Been There and so many others have made my journey much more enlightened and joyful. Many of the books I have read were recommended by Frank M. the late alcoholic archivist of GSO. He was a truly sweet gentleman and I miss him to this day. lee --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mel Barger" wrote: > > Hi Matt, > I asked Bill Wilson about Emmet Fox and he said > they even attended his lectures in New York in the > 1930s. He also said they read The Sermon on the > Mount. > > I found my own copy of it in Pontiac, Michigan, in > February, 1951, and have read it ever since. > > Mike E., the second member of AA in Detroit, even > told of reading it while he was still getting well > from his last drunk; he had to rest it on pillow > to hold it steady! > > I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against > literature that isn't conference-approved has > eliminated this any several other good books from > most meetings. I recommend it whenever I can and > sometimes mention it in talks. > > Mel Barger > > ___________________________ > > Note from the moderator: > > See Mel's little article on Emmet Fox at > http://hindsfoot.org/Fox1.html > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3349. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox, black and red and green books, etc. From: Billy-Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2006 11:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Billy-Bob, Jon Markle, Robert Stonebraker, Lynn Sawyer, and Glenn C. ______________________________ From: Billy-Bob (backtobasicsbillybob at yahoo.com) When I first came to AA in 1985 I was told by my temporary sponsor to get a copy of the Little Red Book, Stools And Bottles, The 24 Hour A Day Book, The Big Book and the 12 and12. I read Emmet Fox's version of the Sermon On The Mount, but I like the version that Jesus wrote better. (lol) Billy-Bob ______________________________ Jon Markle (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) wrote: When/where I got sober (as they say), all of these were still being suggested as essential reading (as well as the standard AA literature) Big Book and the 12x12, etc, the little Black Book, Red Book and Green Book, and Living Sober. By sponsors and my home group. One of the things I find appalling in too many meetings today is the lack of suggestions that newcomers read the literature. We always gave out a copy of "Living Sober" to all newcomers, whether or not they came back. And sponsors always made sure their sponsees had the Big Book and a copy of the 12x12, at the very least. Jon Markle Raleigh ______________________________ From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) Robert Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) wrote: Dr. Earl Marsh, in his Big Book story "Physician Heal Thyself," mentions Emmet Fox's then, and still, popular book "SERMON ON THE MOUNT." See page 348 of the third edition of the Big Book. Dear Bob, Thanks for the tip! I FOUND IT!! My 3rd Edition is the one I always bring to BB studies--some of the pages are coming out, and it's all highlighted up, but I love it just the same. Also have a 4th Edition, hard cover, that, admittedly, hasn't seen much (read:enough) wear, yet. Arthur and others, Thanks so much for all the detail about Emmet Fox and his writings and teachings. I've not heard of the Green Book, but the others, I have. I think I'm gonna look for the Little Red Book and Emmet Fox's book, at my local used book store, soon. I used to read from the Upper Room. Think I got it from my Dad, who was a Methodist. I think it still exists today. Happy sobriety, Lynn from Sacramento, CA ______________________________ From the moderator: "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" was written by AA member Richmond Walker, who got sober in Boston in 1943, and later moved to Daytona Beach, Florida. His book was sponsored by the Daytona Beach AA group. See http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla1.html and http://hindsfoot.org/rwpix1.html. It and the Big Book were the two most important books in early AA for many years. It is still read from in numerous AA meetings. "The Little Red Book" and "Stools and Bottles" (which had a green cover) were written by AA member Ed Webster and sponsored by the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis, Minnesota. See http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html and http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html. When Ed Webster wrote "The Little Red Book," he continually consulted with Dr. Bob, who put many notes on the manuscript suggesting additions and changes. This is our best guide as to the way Dr. Bob understood the twelve steps. Dr. Bob sent copies of this all over the world, from Canada to Florida, and also made sure that the New York AA office had copies available for sale until the time he died in 1950. The understood principle in early AA was that any work which had been published under the sponsorship of one AA group, could be read from and sold to their members by any other AA group which wished to do so, without need of any further discussion. Issues like this in AA have always been decided by precedent (just as in English Common Law and in modern American law) and not by a small group of people deciding to pass a group of rules. So if you look at AA in the 1930's, 40's, 50's, and 60's, and put together a list of books that were read by AA groups, then on the grounds of precedent alone, these books are can be read by modern AA groups and sold by modern intergroups without even any need of discussion. They are automatically considered perfectly O.K. The AA that saves us is the AA of the 1930's, 40's, 50's, and 60's, not some brainstorm on the part of a small group of modern delegates who come up with some theory and decide to pass rules. We are saved by doing what the good old timers did, not by following a set of mechanical and legalistic rules. We don't look at lists of rulings passed by conferences and assemblies to find out what good AA is, we read AA history to discover what really good AA is. "My story is my message" means that the story of early AA is its crucial message, people in the early days witnessing to what gave them sobriety and real serenity of life. When we listen to them, and try to do what they said they did (including read the books which they said they read), we will find that kind of sobriety and serenity ourselves. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3350. . . . . . . . . . . . 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 10:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi there Does anyone know which records Clarence is referring to when he make the statement about the recovery rate in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, at page 261? Thanks Bent IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3351. . . . . . . . . . . . One-Day History ‘ Archives Gathering June 24 2006 Lebanon PA From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 2:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Gathering will be held at St Cecilia's Social Hall 750 State Drive Lebanon PA registration at 8-9 am invited speakers oldtimers Clyde B (6/20/1946) and Chet H (4/4/1949), possibly one or two others over 50 years, plus Glenn C (Moderator of AAHL and author of several books on AA History), Mitch K (author of HOW IT WORKED and organizer of the Clarence S Archive at Brown), with a panel on the GSO Proposed 1955- 2000 History, and a panel on Writing Local History: the Founders of AA in Eastern PA. Exhibits from several archives. Those interested may contactjaredlobdell@comcast.net for directions. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3352. . . . . . . . . . . . Non-Conference approved literature From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2006 8:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. We make great effort to make these 90 minute sessions interesting. I have learned lot's of interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher, Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung, Rev Shoemaker, Clarence Snyder and all the rest of those early historical participants from non-conference approved materials. Here are listed a few of our current book collection: * EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B. * CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows * DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson, edited by Ellie Van V. * GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing * HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder, By Mitchell K. * SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Mary C. Darrah * NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Ernest Kurtz * BILLW, by Robert Thomsen Here are a few other non-AA history books we use for reference because they were often read by early AA members: * SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox * AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen * THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond But naturally our main source of historical information come from the Conference approved books from GSO . Bob S. ???????????????????????????? -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Lee Nickerson Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:28 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Emmet Fox I surely agree. I was fortunate to be Maine's Archivist for eight years and by what seemed necessity, I began to do the unthinkable - read non-conference approved literature. It enhanced my sobriety and allowed me to do my service job in a much more informative and interesting way. I picked up the habit and have been at it ever since. I just finished a book called Drinking: A Love Story by Caroline Knapp - one of the best personal stories I have read in a long time. As far as AA history goes; Not God, Sister Ignatia:The Angel Of AA, Grateful to Have Been There and so many others have made my journey much more enlightened and joyful. Many of the books I have read were recommended by Frank M. the late alcoholic archivist of GSO. He was a truly sweet gentleman and I miss him to this day. lee --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mel Barger" wrote: > > Hi Matt, > I asked Bill Wilson about Emmet Fox and he said > they even attended his lectures in New York in the > 1930s. He also said they read The Sermon on the > Mount. > > I found my own copy of it in Pontiac, Michigan, in > February, 1951, and have read it ever since. > > Mike E., the second member of AA in Detroit, even > told of reading it while he was still getting well > from his last drunk; he had to rest it on pillow > to hold it steady! > > I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against > literature that isn't conference-approved has > eliminated this any several other good books from > most meetings. I recommend it whenever I can and > sometimes mention it in talks. > > Mel Barger > > ___________________________ > > Note from the moderator: > > See Mel's little article on Emmet Fox at > http://hindsfoot.org/Fox1.html > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3353. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: quote from Bill re: the stories From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 7:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On January 23, 1955 Bill wrote Clarence about the stories being changed in the 2nd edition. Here are some excerpts: "Now, another matter. We are making a re-do of the story section of the A.A. book. As you know, the old stories were very low bottom. We then lacked the experience we now have, and we lacked the great variety of cases which A.A. today affords. So among practically all consulted, it seems desirable to broaden and deepen the story section of the book to bring it in line with present-day membership and experience. No change in the text, of course. "The plan for the new story section runs like this: instead of twenty-eight stories, there will be thirty-seven. Headed by Doc Smith, they will be divided into three groups of twelve stories each - the pioneers, the high bottom and the low bottom. "The larger part of the old stories will be dropped from the book, in fact, all the New York ones." (a couple of paragraphs down) "Personally, I hated to take out so many of the old stories. But my reasons were only sentimental, they didn't make sense. The object of the story section is to appeal to as many kinds of drunks as possible and I'm sure that we shall now have a much bigger spread. I hope and believe you will like the result when you see it." I think that might clear up why stories were dropped and/or added. Another line I found interesting was: "As you know, maybe one-half of today's incoming membership is composed of milder potential alcoholics..." Even in 1955 Bill recognized that many wandering through the doors of AA weren't really alcoholics YET. It is the same today and those who come to explore or test the waters maybe shouldn't be counted in all these skewed statistics. Too bad Bill didn't address those few who did choose to resume their drinking careers but I guess he felt that Clarence already knew who they were. --- ArtSheehan wrote: > Ooops! I attached the wrong reply to Billy Bob's > posting. Here's the > correction. I exchanged the info below with Billy > Bob in a separate > email and would like to offer it for consideration: > > Hi Billy Bob > > I have Hartigan's book. The portion you emphasize > illustrates the > matter of context I tried to address. Hartigan > actually supports the > claim that 50% initially made it yet seems to try to > portray a doom > and gloom scenario for early 1939. Hartigan should > also have cited > Bill W's comments on the matter in 1955 in the 2nd > edition Big Book. > > 29 stories were included in the 1st printing of the > 1st edition Big > Book. 22 of them were dropped in the 2nd edition. > There is a myth in > AA that the 22 stories were removed because the > members had returned > to drinking. It's not true. In the introduction to > the personal > stories in the 2nd edition Big Book Bill W wrote: > > "When first published in 1939, this book carried 29 > stories about > alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with > the greatest number > of readers, the new 2nd Edition (1955) carries a > considerably enlarged > story section, as above described. Concerning the > original 29 case > histories, it is a deep satisfaction to record, as > of 1955, that 22 > have apparently made full recovery from their > alcoholism. Of these, 15 > have remained completely sober for an average of 17 > years each, > according to our best knowledge and belief." > > In the introduction to the "Pioneers of AA Section" > in the 2nd edition > Bill W went on to write: > > "Dr Bob and the 12 men and women who here tell their > stories were > among the early members of AA's first groups. Though > 3 have passed > away of natural causes, all have maintained complete > sobriety for > periods ranging from 15 to 19 years as of this date > 1955. Today, > hundreds of additional AA members can be found who > have had no relapse > for at least 15 years. All of these then are the > pioneers of AA. They > bear witness that release from alcoholism can really > be permanent." > > From the figures in Bill W's introduction, > approximately 75% of the > early members who had their stories in the 1st > edition Big Book were > sober as of AA's 20th anniversary (1955). Even if > half didn't make it, > as asserted by Hartigan, the percentage that did is > still consistent > with early claims of a 50% success rate. > > The 1st edition story authors is the only fully > qualified population > that demonstrates the claims that 50% made it and > another 25% sobered > up again after returning to drinking. > > Cheers > Arthur > > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of > backtobasicsbillybob > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 12:51 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote from > Francis Hartigan's > Book In Regard To Early AA's Success > > "We have to wonder why both the Wilson's and the > Smiths did not simply > > give up. Today the nations best treatment centers > report success rates > > ranging from 25 percent to 50 percent. During Bill's > stay in Akron, he > > and Bob calculated their success rate to be about 5 > percent, and among > > the few who seemed to catch on, not all of them were > able to maintain > consistent sobriety. The first edition of AA's Big > Book, published in > 1939, contains the personal recovery stories of many > of AA's earliest > members. Some years later, Bill made notations in > the first copy of > the book to come off the press, indicating which of > the individuals > portrayed therein had stayed sober. A good 50 > percent had not." > > Francis Hartigan, Bill W., Pages 91-92 > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3354. . . . . . . . . . . . Books Early AA''s Read From: rrecovery2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2006 6:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You all might be surprised how easy it is to borrow copies of the Oxford Group books and other books early AAs read. My library routinely interloans copies of all sorts of material for me---from university libraries etc. Just ask your reference desk. Some libraries may charge you the cost of postage. Just on a lark one day, I asked if they could get me a copy of V.C.Kitchen's I Was a Pagan and within a week I was reading a first edition copy. Off the top of my head, I have read early editions of Charles Clapp's books, Peabody's Common Sense of Drinking, Cecil Rose's When a Man Listens and others Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3355. . . . . . . . . . . . Conference approved literature... From: Steve Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Re: Conference approved literature... Is there any reference within conference approved literature or AA World Services literature about the common group conscience guideline of restricting literature in meetings to only "conference approved literature"? This request is of course to assist in settling the often contentious question between newcomers who have not previously come up against the issue and the rest of us. The reflections of this group will be appreciated. Thanks Steve M. Central Oregon ______________________________ From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana) CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE A statement taken from service material released by the GSO in New York. From 1951 on, the Trustees Literature Committee, the Conference Literature Committee, and the participants in the General Service Conferences have overseen the content of AA literature which was published by the AA General Service Office. Please note the second paragraph in this statement: telling people that they CANNOT read "non-conference-approved" literature violates basic AA policies. -------------------------------- "The term 'Conference-approved' describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by GSO. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with AA principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the AA Fellowship." "The term has no relation to material not published by GSO. It does not imply Conference disapproval of other material about AA. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and AA does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read." "Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents solid AA experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of AAs from all over the United States and Canada read and express opinions at every stage of production." -------------------------------- Source: http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html ______________________________ On November 11, 1944, Bobby Burger, the secretary at the Alcoholic Foundation in New York (what is today called the General Service Office) wrote a letter to Barry Collins, who had helped Ed Webster in assembling and publishing the Little Red Book: -------------------------------- "Dear Barry, . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet [a.k.a. the Detroit Pamphlet or Table Mate] and the new Cleveland "Sponsorship" pamphlet and a host of others are all local projects, as is Nicollette's "An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps" [the Little Red Book]. We do not actually approve or disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Foundation feels that each Group is entitled to write up its own "can opener" and let it stand on its merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy. But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't some good points. I think it is up to each individual Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts them out. Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)" -------------------------------- Bill Wilson felt the same way. In November 1950, he wrote a note to Barry Collins about The Little Red Book making the same basic point, only even more strongly. Such locally sponsored works "fill a definite need" and their "usefulness is unquestioned." Most importantly of all, Bill went on to say in that letter: "Here at the Foundation we are not policemen; we're a service and AAs are free to read any book they choose." As quoted in Bill Pittman's Foreword to The Little Red Book: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program, 50th Anniversary Edition (Center City MN: Hazelden, 1996), pp. xvi-xvii. Again, please note that people who try to set themselves up as "AA policemen," to use Bill Wilson's own phrase, where these self-appointed policemen start telling other AA members and AA groups what they "will and will not PERMIT them to read," go against the most basic AA principles and long-established official policies. Source: http://hindsfoot.org/Nread2.html ______________________________ An AA group can of course take a group conscience and vote on what things they will read at that particular meeting. You can't read everything. And if an individual AA group votes that it wants to restrict itself to reading only one particular book (or whatever) and studying that carefully, then of course that group has the right to do that. It can also vote later on to shift to something else and start reading that instead. Each group is totally autonomous. And as it says in the 12 and 12, one of the most fundamental AA rights of all is "the right of a group to be wrong"! ______________________________ See also: http://hindsfoot.org/nread1.html http://hindsfoot.org/Nread2.html http://hindsfoot.org/Nread3.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3356. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Emmet Fox From: Lynn Sawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 2:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Lee and others: Re: Non-Conference Approved Literature I have also enjoyed much of the same. Try one: "The Spirituality of Imperfection", is quite interesting. Don't forget that Alanon has lots of good literature, too! (Yes, we can talk about Alanon, it's mentioned in the Big Book!) Lynn from Sacramento, CA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3357. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: Billy-Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 10:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dick B. claims to have those records in his archives. This was in Cleaveland before the 3rd tradition was established. Back then AA groups could screen and cherry pick their members rather than having to accept anyone how walked through the door seeking help. Billy-Bob Bent Christensen wrote: Hi there Does anyone know which records Clarence is referring to when he make the statement about the recovery rate in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, at page 261? Thanks Bent --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- "The way our "worthy" alcoholics have sometimes tried to judge the "less worthy" is, as we look back on it, rather comical. Imagine, if you can one alcoholic judging another!" Bill Wilson, Who Is A Member Of Alcoholics Anonymous?, AA Grapevine 1946 --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3358. . . . . . . . . . . . recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/14/2006 9:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hazelden sells a set of cd's with Lois being interviewed several years before she died. "An intimate conversation with Lois Wilson" I think Stepping Stones may have it as well. They are wonderful recording and have alot of history in them from "the first person" point of view. published by Bernbil Productions PO box 1136 Little River, SC 29566 Rob White Baltimore Robert White UMB-Psychiatry 410-328-8549 >>> mcfrace1@minn.net 04/11/06 8:56 AM >>> Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 22:19:54 -0700 From: "Mike Aycock" Subject: Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? I thought that someone else would mention this. There is an organization in Minnesota that does an great amount of AA and Al-Anon taping that has several different recordings of Lois W. http://www.gstl.org/ Go to their site map and scroll down to Al-Anon history to start. (Gopher State Tape Library, established 1974). Ken R. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3359. . . . . . . . . . . . 57 years sober another major loss to the fellowship From: bikergaryg@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/16/2006 10:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This was the fellow who had 57 years sobriety at the convention on Saturday night. He was in a wheelchair and gave away the Big Books to the newcomers. RIP CURRAN, ROGER GERVASE Age 86 yrs. passed away on Sunday April 9, 2006 at his home in Audubon, NJ. He is predeceased by his wife Mary J. (nee Doneghy) who died in January 2006. Survived by his daughter Mary Ann Curran-Bailey of Williamstown and 3 grandchildren Gary Savvas, Jr. of Washington Twp, Nicole Savvas of Cherry Hill and Danielle Savvas of Parsippany. A retired Sr. Claims Examiner, Mr. Curran was employed by Keystone Insurance Co. in Haddon Heights. He served on the USS Boise Naval carrier, Asiatic Fleet, during WWII. An advocate for older workers rights, Roger was the founder of The Golden Ax Club. He served on the Audubon Celebration Committee with his wife Mary and was a Friend of Bill W's since 1949. Relatives and friends are invited to attend the visitation on Thursday from 12:00 - 1:00PM at the HENRY FUNERAL HOME, 152 W. Atlantic Ave., Audubon where services will follow at 1PM. Interment will be private at the convenience of the family. In lieu of flowers, contributions in his memory may be made to St. James Glory To God Fund, 400 Columbia Ave., Pitman, NJ 08071 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3360. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online From: Billy-Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/17/2006 11:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe and Charlie talk about the decline of the AA sucess rate on their tapes and advocate working the AA program as outlined by the Big Book as a remedy or a way to save AA. All you have to do listen to their tapes and you will hear their pitch. Billy-Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3361. . . . . . . . . . . . Sat. June 3, ''06 annual picnic at Stepping Stones From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2006 3:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mark your calenders: Saturday, June 3, 2006 is the annual picnic at Stepping Stones. Every year Bill and Lois would host a picnic on the grounds of Stepping Stones.. I have gone for the past 6 years and have had a wonderful time...meeting people from all over the world...It's so nice to have this treasure in my own backyard http://www.steppingstones.org The first Saturday in June is the date... Alanon, Alateen and AA speakers at an open meeting on the lawn under the shade of flowering trees... soft drinks (Duh...)are provided, and bring your picnic lunch..tour the home...see the historic and wonderful things on the upstairs walls... visit "Wit's end" where Bill wrote so much of the traditions...and see the original Man on the Bed..or AA #3... You can visit Steppingstones site or email me for directions from the highway... Gene in Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3362. . . . . . . . . . . . Hazelden Foundation and book publishing From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 2:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I want to post something on this subject because of all the confusion I see on this matter. There is at present a famous treatment center called Hazelden in the United States, which also publishes books on a variety of treatment oriented issues. It is a huge operation today, with an enormous budget. The Hazelden Foundation was started in 1949. It began as a small and simple alcoholism treatment program operating out of a Minnesota farmhouse (photo at http://hindsfoot.org/RWcvPhot.html) which was run by AA members. The farmer who originally owned the farm named it "Hazelden Farm" after his wife who was named Hazel. As William L. White notes in "Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America," pp. 201-2 and 207-8, the psychiatrists and psychotherapists did not really take over the Hazelden operation until later, in the 1960's -- their people basically won control of its administration in 1966 -- at which point their program began referring to "chemical dependency" and treating alcoholism and drug addiction as simply versions of the same addictive tendency (which could be treated in the same group setting by identical methods), and so on, in ways that many A.A. old-timers object to strongly. We need to talk about how this all fits in with some of the major early AA books which were written and used by the AA old timers. The four most published AA authors are Bill Wilson, Richmond Walker, Ed Webster, and Ralph Pfau. Bill Wilson's writings were published by the central AA headquarters in New York City and still are. The major religious denominations all have their own publishing houses (Fortress for the Lutherans, Westminster for the Presbyterians, Abingdon for the Methodists, various Roman Catholic presses at places like Notre Dame University and Loyola University and so on). But early AA did not have the money to set up an AA publishing house, and still does not have that kind of money. In fact, it might possibly violate the Twelve Traditions to set one up. As a result, the other three major AA authors began by publishing their books themselves. Early AA member Richmond Walker in Daytona Beach, Florida, had "Twenty Four Hours a Day" printed on the little printing press in the county courthouse, and then distributed them from his basement. Early AA member Ed Webster in Minneapolis ("The Little Red Book" and the green covered "Stools and Bottles") teamed up with fellow AA member Barry Collins to publish these books as the "Coll-Webb Publishing Company," which just meant the two of them paying for the printing themselves and distributing the books themselves. Early AA member Ralph Pfau in Indianapolis ("Father John Doe" and the Golden Books) likewise printed his books himself. He called his little self-publishing operation SMT Guild. "SMT" stood for Society of Matt Talbot. Father Ralph had three nuns who served as his secretaries, and they took care of taking orders and distributing the books. Things went fine (in all three cases) for a number of years. But Richmond Walker finally got too old to keep it up all by himself, so in 1954 Patrick Butler at Hazelden volunteered to take over printing and distributing the books, to make sure that they would still be available to AA members. Rich had had nothing to do with Hazelden at all. He had never visited there. In 1954, Hazelden was still basically just a big farmhouse, and it had not yet turned into a giant enterprise with large numbers of psychiatrists and psychotherapists on its staff. After Ed Webster's death, his widow likewise arranged with Hazelden to take over the publi- cation of Ed's books. After Father Ralph Pfau's death, his niece tried to keep on printing and distributing the Golden Books herself, but after a number of years, it finally got to be too much for her, and so she likewise made an arrangement with Hazelden to take over the job. The people at Hazelden back in those days deserve a lot of credit for taking on the publication of those works, because otherwise they would have gone out of print. The AA headquarters in New York City did not have the money to print them (they were barely able to scrape up enough money to publish the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions") and if they had attempted to set up a big AA-related publishing firm, it probably would have violated the Traditions. Hazelden has also published a lot of good books on AA history, books which the fellowship absolutely needs to have available, but which the New York office cannot afford to print. In order to be healthy, AA needs to have many more books available on AA history and on AA spirituality than the New York office can afford to print. So we have always depended on self- publishing and friendly foundations and so on to carry out this service work for AA. But please, the works of Richmond Walker, Ed Webster, and Father Ralph Pfau are NOT "Hazelden treatment philosophy" and these books were NOT written by a bunch of treatment center psychiatrists. They were WRITTEN BY AA MEMBERS FOR AA MEMBERS (to coin a phrase). Hazelden has also published good books on AA history by people like AA member Mel B. (who was also the principle author of the conference- sponsored AA history book called "Pass It On"). Mel is very definitely not a treatment center psychiatrist! What causes the confusion is that Hazelden ALSO publishes books written by treatment center psychiatrists. We have to distinguish between those books and the books by AA authors. They are two totally different kinds of books. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3363. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 From: Billy-Bob . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2006 4:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The claim that 75 percent achieved a lasting sobriety itself seems strangely and ambiguously worded. "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried (an ambiguous qualifier used to eliminate an unknown percentage of people), 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, (this is the category I personally fall into) and among the remainder, (presumably the remaining 25%) those who stayed on with us showed some improvement. (What the heck does this mean? Does this mean the ultimate success rate is higher than 75%? Does this mean they stayed sober for a while but died drunk and consequently were not counted as successes? It's very unclear.) Other thousands (What other thousands? How many other thousands? Does this refer to the ones who didn't really try?) came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't really want the program. But great numbers of these---(Uh excuse me how many?) about two out of three---(Pardon me? two out of three of how many?) began to return as time passed." Really? How do we know they returned as time passed, who was keeping track of their comings and goings? What does Bill mean by "showed improvement?" This statement is simply to vague to be meaningful. BTW, this statement was found in the forward to the Second Edition which reads "Figures given in this foreword describe the Fellowship as it was in 1955." So claims of a 50 to 75 percent success rate seem to be being claimed for this particular time period and not for the time prior to and shortly after the Big Book was published, the so called "flying blind" period as you describe it. If you read the statement very carefully you will find that it makes very little sense and leaves all kinds of questions unanswered. One is left with the very general idea that if you come to A.A. and really try you have a pretty good chance of making it. While this impression might be pretty accurate, and in my experience it is. We still don't know what percentage of people "really try" i.e. make sufficent effort to make it. According to some of AA's own triennnial surveys a good 95 percent seem to drop out during the first year. That means that about 5 percent "really try". Which means that if 50% get it right away figure and 75% get it eventually figures hold true, it means that after all is said and done that 75% of 5% achieve a lasting sobriety. Sincerely, Billy-Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3364. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 10:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mitchell K., "How It Worked," page 108: "The Ohio membership was opposed to ANY changes in the draft of the book. They had achieved great success using the original message. Their numbers were growing; and the members who were staying sober, were staying sober with little or no cases of relapse into active alcoholism" Two years after the publication of the book, Clarence made a survey of all of the members in Cleveland. He concluded that, by keeping most of the "old program," including the Four Absolutes and the Bible, ninety-three percent of those surveyed had maintained uninterrupted sobriety. Clarence opined that even with New York's "moral psychology" approach to recovery "had nowhere near our recovery rate." Jim S. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bent Christensen" wrote: > > Hi there > > Does anyone know which records Clarence is referring to when he make > the statement about the recovery rate in Dr. Bob and the Good > Oldtimers, at page 261? > > Thanks > Bent > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3365. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Emmet Fox From: spokann24@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/18/2006 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages from spokann24, Billy-Bob, and Lynn Sawyer ______________________________ From: spokann24@aol.com (spokann24 at aol.com) "I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against literature that isn't conference-approved has eliminated this any several other good books from most meetings." It's good to remember that these wonderful books, while not conference-approved, are not conference- DISAPPROVED either! ______________________________ From: Billy-Bob (backtobasicsbillybob at yahoo.com) Yes the advantage of the book Living Sober is it's very short and very practical, in fact it's often called a booklet rather than a book. It is only 88 pages. It concentrates on subjects such as staying away from the first drink, sponsorship and avoiding, "emotional entanglements" in the first few months of sobriety. A lot of the common sense advice and slogans that get passed along word of mouth in AA can be found in the booklet Living Sober and nowhere else in the conference approved AA literature. Agnostics and atheists in AA tend to favor the book Living Sober because there is very little sermonizing about God or a Higher Power in it. Stools and Bottle as I recall also takes on the subject of drinking very directly. Some people who are homophobic in AA dislike the book Living Sober because Barry L. its author was a homosexual. Sincerely, Billy-Bob ______________________________ From: Lynn Sawyer (sawyer7952 at yahoo.com) I, too, have benefited from reading so-called Non-Conference-Approved Literature. Try "The Spirituality of Imperfection"--it, too, is a good read. And don't forget that Alanon has alot of good literature, too. (Yes, we CAN talk about Alanon, it's mentioned in the Big Book!) Lynn from Sacramento, CA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3366. . . . . . . . . . . . Are there AA literature reviews? From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 10:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Suggestion from Arkie for the creation of a list of helpful AA literature, along with comments from Robert Stonebraker and James Bliss about possible books to include on that list. ______________________________ Arkie Koehl (arkie at arkoehl.com) This is a fascinating, useful and helpful thread. Thanks to all. Is there by any chance someplace where such literature is reviewed by peers, or just AA historians, so that relative novices like myself can get a feel for what books are generally better thought of than others? Arkie Koehl Honolulu - - - - - - - - - - - - On Apr 18, 2006, at 14:42, Robert Stonebraker wrote: Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. We make great effort to make these 90 minute sessions interesting. I have learned lots of interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher, Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung, Rev. Shoemaker, Clarence Snyder and all the rest of those early historical participants from non-conference approved materials. Here are listed a few of our current book collection: > * EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B. > * CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows > * DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson, edited by Ellie Van V. > * GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing > * HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder, by Mitchell K. > * SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Mary C. Darrah > * NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Ernest Kurtz > * BILL W, by Robert Thomsen Here are a few other non-AA history books we use for reference because they were often read by early AA members: > * SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox > * AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen > * THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond But naturally our main source of historical information comes from the Conference approved books from GSO . Bob S. ______________________________ From: james.bliss@comcast.net (james.bliss at comcast.net) I have been literature chair for both District and Area and have only seen verbal indications that we are to encourage Conference Approved literature. I will attempt to review any documentation which I have received which may include this in a written form but I do not remember having read any. I was asked to talk during a presentation about 'Carrying the Message' and was instructed the content was to be about carrying the message using conference approved literature. Personally, I believe that any material which is spiritual in nature is acceptable and the Big Book enforces this idea regarding spiritual material. I do encourage various conference approved literature for various reasons: Big Book - it is the AA program 12 and 12 - obvious Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers - historical perspective Pass It On - historical perspective Various guidelines and handbooks depending upon what service work is being performed Open/Closed meeting card - good to read at the respective meeting Anonymity - both the pamphlet and the brief card - good to clear up the confusion about exactly what anonymity is for etc. I also recommend many external reading depending upon the individual and where they are at: Sermon on the Mount - Emmet Fox Fenelon Letters 24 Hours a Day The Little Red Book The Bible - for those member who believe in that religion And many other items which I read from recommendations from friends, religious leaders, browsing in stores. My impression from the Big Book is that we should listen to our spiritual leaders and seek their advice on what materials we might want to read. To me, this is about getting and staying sober, not limiting my reading to a specific publisher. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3367. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Conference approved literature... From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 3:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Steve wrote Is there any reference within conference approved literature or AA World Services literature about the common group conscience guideline of restricting literature in meetings to only "conference approved literature"? Conference Advisory Actions on Literature. 1977- It was suggested that AA groups be discouraged from selling literature not distributed by the General Service Office and the Grapevine. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3368. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 4:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII References DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers SD - Slaying the Dragon When Cleveland members separated from the Oxford Group (and the Akron, OH meetings) they adopted a very rigorous prescreening procedure for prospects. Today, such prescreening would be considered in direct opposition to the spirit and letter of Tradition Three and morally abhorrent. The following are excerpts from "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers that qualify a claimed "93%" success rate. It would likely be better qualified as Cleveland achieving a 93% success among those prospects who were already successful. (DBGO pg 261) "Meetings in Cleveland evolved somewhat differently from those in Akron. "We opened with an audible prayer," said Clarence S. "The speaker, who was chosen four weeks in advance, spoke for 45 minutes, and we closed with the Lord's Prayer. Then, we would reopen for informal comments, questions, and so forth. The total meeting might go on anywhere from one and a half to two hours. No smoking was allowed in the first part of the meeting, only in the informal part." "That's the trouble," Clarence said. "They take it so casually today, I think a little discipline is necessary. I think AA was more effective in those days. Records in Cleveland show that 93 percent of those who came to us never had a drink again. When I discovered that people had slips in AA, it really shook me up. Today it's all watered down so much. Anyone can wander in now." (DBGO pg 263) The active or even recently active alcoholic was definitely not welcome at early meetings in Cleveland. In September 1940, Clarence wrote Bill that "several groups do not permit a rummy to attend unless he has been hospitalized or talked to by ten men." Clarence noted that they then had a "definite setup" with three hospitals and two sanitariums, and that there were ten to 15 hospitalized at all times. By January 1941, requirements had eased up - slightly. Clarence wrote that "most groups" required either hospitalization, being talked by a least five members, or being passed by a committee before a new person could attend meetings. In Youngstown, it was usual for two couples to visit the prospective member before he attended his first meeting. The husband would tell the man about AA., and the woman would talk to the wife. "That way, they would know what it was all about when they finally got to AA," said Norman V. Various groups have various distinctions," Clarence wrote. "But the general idea is to try and prepare a fellow and give him a pretty good understanding of the aims and principles of A.A. before he comes to meetings. This eliminates much of the nuisance of entertaining boys under the influence at out meetings." (DBGO pg Earlier in the book, a Cleveland member verifies the prescreening procedure: (DBGO pg 169) "After Clarence talked to me at my home, others would come over and talk to me. They wouldn't let you in a meeting Just by one guy talking to you, as they do now. They felt you should know something about what you were going to hear and the purpose of the program. "Then Clarence made me go to the home of one of the newer members every night for 3 months, and they had nine or ten people taking to me. Then I had to read the Big Book before I went to my first meeting. As a result, I think I had a better understanding of what they were trying to do". A similar reference can be found in "Slaying the Dragon" by William L White, an excerpt summarizes (SD pg 133) As AA completed its developmental separation from the Oxford Group and moved toward publication of the Big Book, other significant but less observable milestones occurred. Rules evolved (rules that were later relaxed) governing when a potential member, known variably as a "prospect," "baby," "pigeon, " "fish," or "suspect," could first attend a meeting. Several Cleveland groups, for example, would not allow any prospective member to attend a meeting until he had either been detoxified in a hospital or talked to by ten members. A Denver Group would not allow prospects to attend meetings until they had taken the Steps. (41) Endnote (41): P., Wally (1995) "But, For the Grace of God...How Intergroups and Central Offices Carried the Message of Alcoholics Anonymous in the 1940s" Wheeling, WV: The Bishop of Books. The Cleveland area groups essentially "cherry picked" those prospects who had already previously achieved recovery, and demonstrated the ability to stay sober. This was a requirement before being allowed to enter the Cleveland AA Fellowship and attend meetings. Classifying this practice as achieving a "93%" success rate, is tantamount to classifying a surgical procedure as successful by only including those who had survived and ignoring or omitting those who didn't. Without an indication of the number of prescreened "unsuccessful" alcoholics who were not allowed to attend Cleveland meetings, the reputed "93%" is so dominantly biased to a demonstrated favorable subset of the prospect population as to be a dubious claim at best. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3369. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Conference approved literature... From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 5:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Steve The info below was a previous posting to AAHistoryLovers: I don't believe it's a stretch to suggest that when groups stress that they will allow only Conference-approved literature, they are likely trying to achieve three things: 1. Keep out the proliferation of "recovery" writings that are emanating from more and more varied sources (e.g. Barnes and Noble has a "Recovery" section in their book stores). 2. Ensure that there is no blurring of the distinction between AA and the proliferation of other "12 Step Fellowships." 3. Stay with literature that has been reviewed by a Conference standing committee to ensure that it conforms to AA principles. It would likely be better to use the term "AA literature" instead of "Conference-approved literature" since a fairly substantial body of AA literature is not required to go through the Conference-approval process. Some examples: 1. Grapevine (and its non-English counterparts). 2. Box 459 3. Guidelines (the "yellow sheets") 4. Workbooks (e.g. Archives, PI, CPC, TF and CF service committees) 5. Markings (the GSO Archives newsletter) 6. About AA (PI releases) 7. Directories 8. Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of AA (M-39) 9. Final reports of the General Service Conference 10. Literature published by GSOs other than the US/Canada and AAWS 11. Final reports of the World Service Conference 12. Memento booklets from International Conventions 13. Literature catalogs and flyers (AAWS and Grapevine) 14. Non-English interpretations of books/pamphlets 15. Various and sundry GSO publications called "service pieces." (And I've probably missed others) There is literature, published outside of AA, that is not Conference-approved but which is certainly valuable and beneficial. There are some wonderful historic and spiritual works. If you visit GSO in NY and go the Archives exhibit, you'll see an entire wall of books that are not Conference-approved - which is fine for anyone engaging in serious research. On the other hand there is an awful lot of nonsense, "recovery psycho-babble" and revisionist history that gets published as well. So how do you deal with all of this? I believe most groups draw a line by adopting a guideline to only allow Conference-approved literature. What does GSO have to say on the matter? The information below is a transcription of a service piece (re 15 above) that is included in a packet that is sent to a new group when it registers with GSO. It also appears in a number of service committee kits. CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE Service Material From G.S.O. "Conference-approved"--What It Means to You The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the A.A. Fellowship. The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does not imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read. Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express opinions at every stage of production. How To Tell What Is and What Is Not Conference-approved Look for the statement on books, pamphlets and films: "This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature" All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as "A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. - publishers of Conference-approved literature), and central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The Conference does not disapprove of such material. G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins. Available at Most A.A. Groups Most local A.A. groups purchase and display a representative sampling of Conference-approved pamphlets, and usually carry a supply of hardcover books. Conference-approved literature may be available at central offices and intergroups, or it may be ordered directly from G.S.O. Groups normally offer pamphlets free of charge, and the books at cost. Copyright Conference-approved literature is copyrighted with the Copyright Office, Library of Congress, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. To insure the continued integrity of A.A. literature, and to make sure the A.A. recovery programs will not be distorted or diluted, permission to reprint must be obtained from A.A.W.S. in writing. However, A.A. newsletters, bulletins, or meeting lists have blanket permission to use the material, providing proper credit is given to insure that the copyrights of A.A. literature are protected. The A.A. Preamble is copyrighted by The A.A. Grapevine, Inc. (not by A.A. World Services). Beneath it, these words should appear: Reprinted with permission of the A.A. Grapevine, Inc. The Steps and Traditions should be followed by these words: Reprinted with Permission of A.A. World Services, Inc. 10/93 F-29 (handwritten) Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3370. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Non-Conference approved literature From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 5:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The list of source reference below were used to compile a timeline of AA history that I periodically distribute in AAHistoryLovers. I've read them all more than once and love them. Research and Reference Sources Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, AAWS Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS AA Comes of Age, AAWS As Bill Sees It, AAWS The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B Bill W by Robert Thompson Bill W by Francis Hartigan Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography Children of the Healer, Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by Christine Brewer Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers, AAWS Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Me Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing General Service Conference - Final Reports, AAWS Grapevine Harry Tiebout - the Collected Writings, Hazelden Pittman Press The Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine Inc Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson Mrs Marty Mann, by Sally and David R Brown My Search for Bill W, by Mel B Not God, by Ernest Kurtz (expanded edition) New Wine, by Mel B Pass It On, AAWS The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman, nee AA the Way It Began Sister Ignatia, by Mary C Darrah Slaying the Dragon, by William L White AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service, AAWS Silkworth - the Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, by Dale Mitchell Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery, by Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones and Joan Ziegler Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Stonebraker Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 7:42 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Non-Conference approved literature Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. We make great effort to make these 90 minute sessions interesting. I have learned lot's of interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher, Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung, Rev Shoemaker, Clarence Snyder and all the rest of those early historical participants from non-conference approved materials. Here are listed a few of our current book collection: * EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B. * CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows * DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson, edited by Ellie Van V. * GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing * HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder, By Mitchell K. * SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Mary C. Darrah * NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Ernest Kurtz * BILLW, by Robert Thomsen Here are a few other non-AA history books we use for reference because they were often read by early AA members: * SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox * AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen * THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond But naturally our main source of historical information come from the Conference approved books from GSO . Bob S. ???????????????????????????? -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Lee Nickerson Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:28 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Emmet Fox I surely agree. I was fortunate to be Maine's Archivist for eight years and by what seemed necessity, I began to do the unthinkable - read non-conference approved literature. It enhanced my sobriety and allowed me to do my service job in a much more informative and interesting way. I picked up the habit and have been at it ever since. I just finished a book called Drinking: A Love Story by Caroline Knapp - one of the best personal stories I have read in a long time. As far as AA history goes; Not God, Sister Ignatia:The Angel Of AA, Grateful to Have Been There and so many others have made my journey much more enlightened and joyful. Many of the books I have read were recommended by Frank M. the late alcoholic archivist of GSO. He was a truly sweet gentleman and I miss him to this day. lee --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mel Barger" wrote: > > Hi Matt, > I asked Bill Wilson about Emmet Fox and he said > they even attended his lectures in New York in the > 1930s. He also said they read The Sermon on the > Mount. > > I found my own copy of it in Pontiac, Michigan, in > February, 1951, and have read it ever since. > > Mike E., the second member of AA in Detroit, even > told of reading it while he was still getting well > from his last drunk; he had to rest it on pillow > to hold it steady! > > I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against > literature that isn't conference-approved has > eliminated this any several other good books from > most meetings. I recommend it whenever I can and > sometimes mention it in talks. > > Mel Barger > > ___________________________ > > Note from the moderator: > > See Mel's little article on Emmet Fox at > http://hindsfoot.org/Fox1.html > Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3371. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 6:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There were several documents, records and oral histories involved. Some of the documents involved a commitee which helped pay for hospital stays for those who couldn't afford it. They kept some records as to who the person was, which hospital they were at and how much was paid and/or owed and if it was more than one attempt. There was also records from the hospital committee and a survey of all the early groups compiled by the central committee recording statistician Norm E. with the help of Clarence. Norm compiled a running history of the early groups, who started them the founding members, where they moved to if they did etc. There were also hundreds of group meeting rosters naming members, their addresses, spouses, phone numbers etc. The oral histories came from Clarence, Warren C. (Sr. and Jr) and several old-time Cleveland members. There were a few other documents including the quote from Bill in AACA which stated that Clevlend's results were of the very best. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3372. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 6:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Let me set the record straight. It wasn't called cherry picking and it wasn't just related to Cleveland. In the Big Book, it was written that if the prospect wasn't interested in your solution, waste no more time and move on to the next person. People weren't allowed at first to just attend an AA meeting, they were prospective members. They were visited and given an indoctrination into what AA was. The term sponsor came from the fact that one had to be sponsored into AA just like some unions and country clubs. --- Billy-Bob wrote: > Dick B. claims to have those records in his > archives. This was in Cleveland before the 3rd > tradition was established. Back then AA groups could > screen and cherry pick their members rather than > having to accept anyone how walked through the door > seeking help. > > Billy-Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3373. . . . . . . . . . . . Reading lists for AA study groups From: Joe Adams . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/19/2006 11:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can you tell us where these films are available for local sharing? Joe Adams (sober_in_nc at yahoo.com) __________________________________________ Robert Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) wrote: Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3374. . . . . . . . . . . . 95% First Year Dropout Myth From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2006 12:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One hand-drawn graph in a paper summarizing the 1977 through 1989 Trennial Surveys has been misread by many people. The myth of a 95% drop-out in the first year comes because it reported the membership length of people who were in their first ever year of Alcoholics Anonymous. The x-axis scale of the graph was the percentage who had been coming for any given number of months, it was not the retention percentage. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2379 My AAHistoryLovers Post 2379 (with added comments by moderator Glenn C) presents the proper reading of the graph. The retention from any month to any other is the ratio of the number of members found. For every 100 people who were in their first year, 19 were in their first month and 5 were in their twelfth. 5 / 19 = 0.26 So 26% remain at the end of their first year. Newcomers often are told, "Try A.A. for three months and decide if you are an alcoholic." About half leave during that "test drive." The Survey found 9 in their fourth month. 5 / 9 = 0.56 So 56% of those staying beyond three months finish the year of their first ever A.A. experience. "If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him." (BB p.31) I want to avoid starting the "real alcoholic" debate again but that is true. Alcoholism is a self-diagnosed malady. A.A.'s shared experience can help a visitor decide for himself if he is an alcoholic. As they say, "Yet." :-) Although some in A.A. want to "save" everyone who walks in the door, there really are drinkers who don't need Alcoholics Anonymous at their first visit. [Sponsors are free to tell their sponsees, "This doesn't apply to you."] :-) There are many reasons someone might not stay for their first full year. It isn't up to us to decide if their reason is or is not valid. * Not alcoholic * Not "alcoholic enough" * "Not ready" * Denial * More an addict than an alcoholic * Discouraged by false claims like 95% Dropout Myth * Life's other pressures * Travel distance * Don't "want what we have" by their perception * Never sober enough to hear the message * Wrong group for them * Other psychological problems * Try recovery by some other means * Move * Die (cause is irrelevant) [Sponsors are free to tell their sponsees, "These don't apply to you either."] :-) _____________________ Tom E Wappingers Falls, NY -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Billy-Bob > ... According to some of AA's own triennnial surveys a good 95 percent > seem to drop out during the first year. That means that about 5 percent > "really try". Which means that if 50% get it right away figure and 75% > get it eventually figures hold true, it means that after all is said and > done that 75% of 5% achieve a lasting sobriety. > > Sincerely, Billy-Bob IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3375. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there AA literature reviews? From: billyk . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2006 3:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I did a list of aa movies with professional reviews. I, unfortunately, do not have the time to volunteer to head up this project. I would, however, make the time to support it. If someone would volunteer to head up a project like this, I think it would be a very very valuable service. billyk From the moderator: This movie list is an excellent example of good research work. If you have never looked at it, you ought to, because there are some very interesting movies about alcoholism that would be interesting for Alano clubs and fellowship houses to show on Saturday night get-togethers. Go to the AAHistoryLovers message board at:http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and then go to Messages 2926 to 2931 for Billy K.'s six-part AA Movie List. ______________________________ --- Arkie Koehl wrote: > Suggestion from Arkie for the creation of a list > of helpful AA literature, along with comments from > Robert Stonebraker and James Bliss about possible > books to include on that list. > ______________________________ > > Arkie Koehl > (arkie at arkoehl.com) > > This is a fascinating, useful and helpful thread. > > Thanks to all. > > Is there by any chance someplace where such > literature is reviewed by peers, or just AA > historians, so that relative novices like myself > can get a feel for what books are generally > better thought of than others? > > Arkie Koehl > Honolulu > > - - - - - - - - - - - - > On Apr 18, 2006, at 14:42, Robert Stonebraker > wrote: > > Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, > spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - > we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and > sometimes A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's > Home. We make great effort to make these 90 minute > sessions interesting. I have learned lots of > interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher, > Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung, Rev. Shoemaker, Clarence > Snyder and all the rest of those early historical > participants from non-conference approved materials. > > Here are listed a few of our current book collection: > > > * EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B. > > * CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows > > * DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson, > edited by Ellie Van V. > > * GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing > > * HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder, > by Mitchell K. > > * SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, > by Mary C. Darrah > > * NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, > by Ernest Kurtz > > * BILL W, by Robert Thomsen > > Here are a few other non-AA history books we use > for reference because they were often read by early > AA members: > > > * SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox > > * AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen > > * THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond > > But naturally our main source of historical information > comes from the Conference approved books from GSO . > > Bob S. > > ______________________________ > > From: james.bliss@comcast.net > (james.bliss at comcast.net) > > I have been literature chair for both District > and Area and have only seen verbal indications > that we are to encourage Conference Approved > literature. I will attempt to review any > documentation which I have received which may > include this in a written form but I do not > remember having read any. I was asked to talk > during a presentation about 'Carrying the Message' > and was instructed the content was to be about > carrying the message using conference approved > literature. > > Personally, I believe that any material which > is spiritual in nature is acceptable and the Big > Book enforces this idea regarding spiritual > material. I do encourage various conference > approved literature for various reasons: > > Big Book - it is the AA program > 12 and 12 - obvious > Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers - historical perspective > Pass It On - historical perspective > Various guidelines and handbooks depending upon what > service work is being performed > Open/Closed meeting card - good to read at the > respective meeting > Anonymity - both the pamphlet and the brief card - > good to clear up the confusion about exactly what > anonymity is for etc. > > I also recommend many external reading depending > upon the individual and where they are at: > > Sermon on the Mount - Emmet Fox > Fenelon Letters > 24 Hours a Day > The Little Red Book > The Bible - for those member who believe in that > religion > And many other items which I read from recommendations > from friends, religious leaders, browsing in stores. > > My impression from the Big Book is that we should > listen to our spiritual leaders and seek their advice > on what materials we might want to read. To me, > this is about getting and staying sober, not limiting > my reading to a specific publisher. > > Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3376. . . . . . . . . . . . (1) Bill Shoemaker''s Falling Out? (2) Cloth banners. From: hesofine2day . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2006 3:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII (1) A friend told me today that Bill W. and Sam Shoemaker had a falling out at the end of Bill's life...Any information on this? __________________________ (2) We have started a new group in Boynton Beach, Florida, and are trying to find the old cloth banners with the slogans and one that says "But For The Grace Of God." My memory is that they were blue and gold. The "But for.." one was on a dowel with fringe, I think. Are they still around? Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Yours in love and service IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3377. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/20/2006 1:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a popular saying in AA of being wary of "paralysis through analysis." No matter how hard, or innovatively, one attempts to micro-parse a figurative (broad) statement, a literal interpretation of it is typically one of creative invention rather than precise computation. Precision cannot be derived from vagaries. The other factor is if one already has a predetermined answer in mind and only seeks that which supports that answer, it is bias and far more likely to propagate myth rather than uncover or confirm fact. What is the quantitative number "of alcoholics who came to AA" at any particular period of time? Nobody knows, but it was likely substantial and likely remains substantial. In an address to the 1960 General Service Conference, Bill W commented: "I took note", the co-founder pointed out, "that in this generation which has seen AA come alive, this period of 25 years, a vast procession of the world's drunks has passed in front of us and over the precipice. Worldwide, there would appear to have been something like 25 million of them. And out of this stream of despair, illness, misery and death, we have fished out just one in a hundred in the last 25 years." Now does this mean that over 25 years from 1935 to 1960 exactly 25 million drunks "passed in front of" AA just because Bill stated it and it is written in a document? It could have been 15 million or 35 million or whatever. Bill was simply offering a best estimate in his own judgment. There were, and never have been, any records from which to derive the figure - Bill was simply making an estimate not stating a precise fact. If something is written in a foreword to the Big Book, does that endow it with precision and make it a fact? No. It is still simply an estimate. Depending on whose statistics (sadistics) one uses, there is an estimated 14 to 18 million alcoholics in just the United States alone. World-wide AA membership is estimated at a little over 2 million members. Does this disparity in numbers mean that AA is doing something wrong? Absolutely not. It simply illustrates that the magnitude of the problem is the same today as it was in 1935 (perhaps even larger). If most alcoholics responded to offers of help all that easily there would be no need for AA. The nasty problem (and the fatal one) is that most alcoholics do not respond to offers of help. How many of these estimated 14 to 18 million alcoholics in the US alone will be helped by AA? I'd suggest it depends on: 1. Whether they think they are alcoholic or not ("We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery"). 2. Whether they want to be helped and try AA's program of recovery. This does not mean attending meetings (the dessert of AA). It means learning and trying to practice the Steps in their lives (the main course of AA). How many fallen into the "just visiting" or success or failure categories over the years or just this year? There is no way to determine this with precision (or probably anything even approaching reasonableness). AA does not keep these kinds of records and hasn't, except on a very limited basis, since its first few years. Remember that AA's 3rd group didn't start until shortly after the Big Book was published in April 1939 when it was estimated that there were around 100 members (Bill made a comment that twice that number had likely showed up by then). As an experiment, try to determine what the success rate for your home group has been for the past 1 year or 6 months or 3 months. How many prospects showed up? How many gave AA a try (not just observed AA at meetings)? How many succeeded or failed? I'll make a friendly bet of 2 banana splits that you will not be able to come up with an accurate answer (just a "best guess"). Now try to think of determining this for the 100,000+ estimated groups in AA today or the estimated 2,000 groups at the beginning of 1941. It will still just be a "best guess" that no one will be able to prove or disprove. That's the way it was in AA's early years. That's the way it is today. That's the way it's going to be. AA does not keep membership records much less a visitors log. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Billy-Bob Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:50 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob's Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 The claim that 75 percent achieved a lasting sobriety itself seems strangely and ambiguously worded. "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried (an ambiguous qualifier used to eliminate an unknown percentage of people), 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, (this is the category I personally fall into) and among the remainder, (presumably the remaining 25%) those who stayed on with us showed some improvement. (What the heck does this mean? Does this mean the ultimate success rate is higher than 75%? Does this mean they stayed sober for a while but died drunk and consequently were not counted as successes? It's very unclear.) Other thousands (What other thousands? How many other thousands? Does this refer to the ones who didn't really try?) came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't really want the program. But great numbers of these---(Uh excuse me how many?) about two out of three---(Pardon me? two out of three of how many?) began to return as time passed." Really? How do we know they returned as time passed, who was keeping track of their comings and goings? What does Bill mean by "showed improvement?" This statement is simply to vague to be meaningful. BTW, this statement was found in the forward to the Second Edition which reads "Figures given in this foreword describe the Fellowship as it was in 1955." So claims of a 50 to 75 percent success rate seem to be being claimed for this particular time period and not for the time prior to and shortly after the Big Book was published, the so called "flying blind" period as you describe it. If you read the statement very carefully you will find that it makes very little sense and leaves all kinds of questions unanswered. One is left with the very general idea that if you come to A.A. and really try you have a pretty good chance of making it. While this impression might be pretty accurate, and in my experience it is. We still don't know what percentage of people "really try" i.e. make sufficent effort to make it. According to some of AA's own triennnial surveys a good 95 percent seem to drop out during the first year. That means that about 5 percent "really try". Which means that if 50% get it right away figure and 75% get it eventually figures hold true, it means that after all is said and done that 75% of 5% achieve a lasting sobriety. Sincerely, Billy-Bob Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3378. . . . . . . . . . . . FW: Non-Conference approved literature From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/21/2006 4:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder," By Mitchell K. can be downloaded or read at www.4dgroups.org Click Download/links, then right click "Clarence, etc" then click "Open" Bob S. ************************************************ Subject: Non-Conference approved literature Dear AA Friends, Our Fourth Dimension Group's Big Book Step Study in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. We make great effort to make these 90 minute sessions interesting. I have learned lot's of interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher, Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung, Rev Shoemaker, Clarence Snyder and all the rest of those early historical participants from non-conference approved materials. Here are listed a few of our current book collection: * EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B. * CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows * DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson, edited by Ellie Van V. * GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing * HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder, By Mitchell K. * SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Mary C. Darrah * NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Ernest Kurtz * BILL W., by Robert Thomsen Here are a few other non-AA history books we use for reference because they were often read by early AA members: * SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox * AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen * THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond But naturally our main source of historical information come from the Conference approved books from GSO . Bob S. ********************************************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3379. . . . . . . . . . . . Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2006 2:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Having done some reading on Swedenborg's beliefs and understanding of spitituality, I wonder how much Bill W. was in contact with the Swedenborgians? The higher power as we understand him sounds very close to their teachings... Gene in Westchester ------------------------------------------------------------------ This from some of their beliefs: Love Is Life Love, Swedenborg says, is the basic element of reality. It is the source of all life, the essence of God. Our souls are individual finite forms of love, our bodies serving as mirrors of that inner essence. As we live, we choose what kind of love we will be. We may choose to regard ourselves as the only reality--our own needs, desires, and feelings as all important. Or we may choose to focus on others. In the former instance, we shrink in spirit, allowing a part of our potential as loving beings to atrophy. In the latter instance, we grow spiritually, heightening our awareness of the nature of love and thus also of the nature of ourselves and God. Truth Is Love In Action Truth is the way love works. Most of us sense that. Actions we perform out of love are honest actions, genuine expressions in a physical form of what love means, or the truth of love. Swedenborgians feel that ultimately the two are inseparable, a part of the same reality. Actualized love is truth, and hence faith and charity are especially significant in human living. Swedenborg defines faith as a kind of inner sight, a perception of what is true. Charity is founded in the desire to do service and live a useful life, beginning with the choice of career or life work. The spiritual life involves the active development of a useful and meaningful life in service to the betterment of the world as a whole. Whereas the religious life often connotes withdrawal from the world and life, active participation in the world is a commitment to actualizing faith and charity. The life of charity and faith parallel the union of love and truth which is the essence of God. Freedom of the Will Swedenborg emphasizes the responsibility of all people to develop their own beliefs and live their lives accordingly. Without free will in spiritual things the human being can in no wise advance into light, i.e., into truths and goods of the church, or procure himself a life. Without that free will he would not be a human being but only a figure and a phantom. For his thought would be without reflection, consequently without judgment and thus in Divine things which are of the Church he would have no more ability to turn than a door without a hinge, or with one fastened with a bolt of steel. His will, too, would be devoid of decision, hence no more active towards justice or injustice than the stone on the mound under which lies a dead body...." (Coronis, 24 28) An Inner Meaning Within the Bible Swedenborg likens the Spiritual teachings to a parent teaching a child. ... explaining all things according to their genius and capacities, although he himself thinks from an interior or deeper ground. Otherwise it would be like teaching what would not be learned. (Arcana Coelestia, 2533) Thus the scriptures are written on the literal level in plain language expressing the truth and wisdom of God as it is adapted to our limited human understanding. The Bible also contains a deeper meaning, an inner essence, in addition to its obvious and overt meaning. Swedenborg notes in The True Christian Religion: The Word in its essence is spiritual. Descending from Jehovah the Lord, and passing through the angelic heavens, the Divine (in itself unutterable and imperceptible) became level with the perception of angels and finally the perception of man. Hence, the Word has a spiritual sense, which is within the natural, just as the soul is within the body, or as thought is in speech, or volition in action. The belief that all things have an inner reality, as well as an outer manifestation is a significant concept for the whole of Swedenborgian thought. Swedenborgianism This, then, is the living reality of Swedenborg's teachings. In stressing freedom, diversity, and individualism, he issued a challenge to individuals, churches, and other organizations to be committed to the human growth processes and to express their personal commitment in ways as diverse as their numbers. Sensitivity to, and respect for, each individual's "internal church," or spirituality, is what Swedenborgianism is really all about. One primary pathway advocated in the Swedenborgian Church for spiritual growth is a specialized study of scripture, enabling the diligent student to become aware of the inner-penetration of nature and spirit, of our natural world here and the universal spiritual world. In addition, an expanding awareness of spiritual reality is encouraged by the exploration of dreams and by prayer and meditation practices. And perhaps the most popular of Swedenborg's spiritual growth practices is his Zen-like discussions on "being useful." Teilhard de Chardin once said, "Do not forget that the value and interest of life is not so much to do conspicuous (although we have this ambition) as to do ordinary things with the perception of their enormous value." For Swedenborg, such a focus provides the ground for future spiritual growth. As Paul Zacharias, a Swedenborgian minister, observes in his pamphlet This We Believe, "Everyone who lives up to the best he knows, whether Christian, Jew, Moslem, or Pagan, is truly a member of the church Invisible." --------------------------------------------------------------- Now if you have had the patience to get this far... the idea of service...giving of yourself...It's all there. Gene IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3380. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 95% First Year Dropout Myth From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2006 2:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There was also an article in the *Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly* a few years ago that dissected this too widespread fallacy. Perhaps someone can give the exact citation, which I do not have at hand right now? ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3381. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Reading lists for AA study groups From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2006 11:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Joe A. asked: "Can you tell us where these films are available for local sharing?" I believe "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" is still sold at Dr. Bob's Home and the earlier one, "DAWN OF HOPE," which came from the same place, may be out of circulation. I would suggest you write or check out their website. Both are about 30 minutes long which makes them convenient to play at meetings. Bob S. ?????????? ----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Joe Adams Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:48 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Reading lists for AA study groups Can you tell us where these films are available for local sharing? Joe Adams (sober_in_nc at yahoo.com) __________________________________________ Robert Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) wrote: Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3382. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Hazelden Foundation and book publishing From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/22/2006 5:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bottom line on Hazelden: If it wasn't for them numerous outstanding history books would not be available to the general public (and especially to folks interested in AA history). Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3383. . . . . . . . . . . . A De-Briefer For Treatment Center Graduates From: Glenn . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2006 11:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A friend shared the following passage, but cannot remeber anyting about the book he got it from. Has anybody in this Group heard of this book and have any idea where I could get a copy? The only thing that I presently have is a one page "The Difference between your Sponsor and your Therapist", to help newcomes understand the differance between the complexity of the tratment industry and the simplicity of the Program of Action that has worked best for most ALCOHOLICS for over 70 years. Thanks, Glenn L. Birdsboro, PA, USA "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IS FOR ALCOHOLICS Suffering from a terrible hangover co-founder-to-be Dr. Bob grudgingly consented to engage in a brief conversation with Bill W., an alcoholic stranger from New York. Bill elaborated on his dramatic recovery from alcoholism--the doctor listened for five hours! Dr.Bob especially identified with Bill's battle with the physical allergy to alcohol--and his mental obsession. Hope began to return--the evidence stood before him. Truly, one alcoholic sharing with another (about alcohol) can become fascinating business. If Bill's sharing would have been about drug addiction, or some other terrible problem, the conversation surely would have been short lived. As it were, this incident signals a founding moment of A.A. history. When we identify ourselves as simply "alcoholic" we are abiding with the spirit of our Third and Fifth Traditions. But if we add to it we are indicating that A.A. has an opinion on different outside issues--such as drugs, etc., (see Tradition 10). Besides that, we separate ourselves from our fellow alcoholics. There is no need to do this. This custom came from treatment center rap-sessions--and that's where it should have stayed. A.A. does not compete for membership with members (or potential members) of other 12-Step fellowships. Our co-founder Bill W. has written that he could see no way of making non-alcoholic addicts into A.A. members ("Problems other than Alcohol--Excerpts"). Non- alcoholics are invited to our open meetings for help and inspi rati on, but they will not become members of Alcoholics Anonymous. If you may think you may be an alcoholic, but don't really know, you are welcomed to attend all A.A. meetings. Our Third Tradition states: "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire tostop drinking. In effort to abide by our code of singleness of purpose most A.A. members (both open and closed) request that those in attendance confine their sharing to alcohol related subjects. The mention of other problems is often necessary and, of course, not taboo; but it is easy to see that alcoholic recovery must remain our chief concern. Bill's recovery message to Dr. Bob was from one alcoholic to another alcoholic; it worked! That should never change! Let! us f! orever keep this legacy available for the millions of alcoholics who will desperately need a real alcoholic to help in the years to come. A De-Briefer For Treatment Center Graduates, pages 19and20" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3384. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: conference approved literaure From: archie . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2006 11:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE SERVICE MATERIAL FROM G.S.O. Conference-approved--What It Means to You The term Conference-approved describes written or audiovisual material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with A. A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the A.A. Fellowship. The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does not imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or may not read. Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of A.A.'s from all over the United States and Canada read and express opinions at every stage of production. HOW TO TELL WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT CONFERENCE-APPROVED Look for the statement on books, pamphlets and films: "This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature" All A.A. Literature is not Conference-approved Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as A.A. literature. There is no conflict between A.A. World Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. --publishers of Conference-approved literature), and central offices or intergroups--rather they complement each other. The Conference does not disapprove of such material. G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins. AVAILABLE AT MOST A.A. GROUPS Most local A.A. groups purchase and display a representative sampling of Conference-approved pamphlets, and usually carry a supply of hardcover books. Conference-approved literature may be available at central offices and intergroups, or it may be ordered directly from G.S.O. Groups normally offer pamphlets free of charge, and the books at cost. COPYRIGHT Conference-approved literature is copyrighted with the Copyright Office, Library of Congress, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. To insure the continued integrity of A.A. literature, and to make sure the A.A. recovery programs will not be distorted or diluted, permission to reprint must be obtained from A.A.W.S. in writing. However, A.A. newsletters, bulletins, or meeting lists have blanket permission to use the material, providing proper credit is given to insure that the copyrights of A.A. literature are protected. The A.A. Preamble is copyrighted by The A.A. Grapevine, Inc.--(not by A.A. World Services). Beneath it, these words should appear: Reprinted with permission of the A.A. Grapevine, Inc. The Steps and Traditions should be followed by these words: Reprinted with Permission of A.A. World Services, Inc. 10/93 F-29 ---------------------------------------------------------- WHAT CONFERENCE APPROVED MEANS from BOX 4-5-9 (August-September 1978, Vol.23, No. 4 When you see this emblem (omitted) and the words This is A. A. General Conference-approved literature, they mean only one thing. Such a publication represents the broadest possible consensus of A.A. thinking. It is not just one small locality's interpretation, nor the ideas of only one member. As far as humanly possible, the seal says, in effect, this piece reflects the spectrum of opinion of our whole Fellowship. Any such A. A. material has been very carefully prepared under he close scrutiny of the G.S.O staff, of the appropriate trustees and Conference committees, and of our General Service Conference (U.S. and Canada) itself, expressing the group conscience of A. A. as a whole. The reason behind this procedure is simple. It is a way of preserving A.A.'s traditional independence. We are not affiliated with anyone else, and we do not oppose, nor do we endorse, any other ideas. We simply state (that is, publish) our own. It does not mean the Conference disapproves of any other publications. Many local A.A. central offices publish their own meeting lists. A.A. as a whole does not oppose these, any more than A. A. disapproves of the Bible or books on health or any other publications from any source that A.A.'s find helpful. What any A.A. member reads is no business of G.S.O., or of the Conference, naturally. But when you see the emblem shown at the top of this article, (omitted) you can be sure the material has been through often tediously slow, sometimes tortuous screening and revisions by the necessary committees and the Conference. Many groups have found that the place where literature is displayed in the meeting room can be very important. Is it clearly visible? Can newcomers pick up some A.A. literature without feeling conspicuous? It may be even more important that all Conference-approved A.A, material is exhibited clearly separate from any other publications. If new members or visitors see religious or medical pamphlets or other material about alcoholism mixed up with A. A. literature, they can become terribly confused about A.A. We are not affiliated with, nor do we endorse, any viewpoint on alcoholism except our own. But Tradition Six becomes blurred when people see church, health, and A.A. publications all stacked together. How about taking a look at your group's literature display at the next meeting? Pretend you are absolutely new. What impression of A. A. does the literature display give you? -----------------------------------------------------------CONFERENCE APPROVAL A LENGTHY, CAREFUL AND NECESSARY PROCESS When the 55th General Service Conference convenes in April, several of its standing committee agendas will call for approving or developing new and revised pieces of literature. The Literature Committee will look at proposed revisions of three pamphlets, as well as one idea for a new one. The Correctional Facilities, Public Information, and Report and Charter committees also have literature items on their agendas. At the end of the week, the Conference may recommend that some projects be carried to the next stage of development, that some not be pursued any further, and that some be approved. Those that are approved by the full Conference carry the words This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature. This phrase means that a pamphlet or book reflects the widest possible spectrum of A.A. experience and that it maintains the integrity of the A.A. message. Achieving those goals requires a lengthy (two years or more), painstaking, even laborious process. It begins with a need widely expressed by the Fellowship. Sometimes, the call for a new piece of literature will be heard from many directions, as were requests for a fourth edition of the Big Book. At other times, though, the idea will start small, possibly with only one member or one group sending a request to the General Service Office. Since the ideas of a few do not necessarily reflect the needs of a majority of members, these requests rarely reach the agenda of a Conference committee right away. Instead, they follow a tried and true path through the service structure, designed to widen the group conscience with every step and ensure that by the time a proposal reaches the Conference body, a significant number of members believe it should be considered by the entire Fellowship. A member who sees a need for a new pamphlet or book often takes it to his or her home group for discussion. If the group decides it has merit, the G.S.R. forwards the request to the district meeting for discussion, and if the district is in favor, the D.C.M. forwards it to the area assembly for even wider consideration. From there, the area delegate sends it on to the General Service Office and the G.S.O. staff forwards it to the appropriate trustees' committee. Eventually, the item may be placed on the agenda of a Conference committee. In order to become an Advisory Action, any committee recommendation must pass the Conference with substantial unanimity--defined as a two-thirds majority. To reach substantial unanimity, floor discussion may take a very short time or go on for hours. Ideally, all Conference members, whether or not they agree with the final decision, will be satisfied that they have been heard and a genuine consensus has been reached. The A.A. Service Manual describes how it happens: Before a vote is taken, plenty of time is allotted for full discussion, including questions about the background of a recommendation and the committee's reasons for coming to its conclusions Discussions, both in general sessions and during committee meetings, can at times be hot and heavy, but Conference members always try to reach a group conscience and to make decisions in the best interests of the Fellowship. After the vote, the Conference chairperson calls for minority opinions and occasionally, a well-reasoned minority opinion can result in another vote, reversing the first decision. Once the Conference has voted for approval, the project is turned over to the G.S.O. publications department for final editing, type-setting, design and printing. The publications department is an integral part of the process at every stage, working with the G.S.O. staff to prepare material for distribution to Conference members, overseeing any preliminary editing that might need to be done, finding writers when needed (A.A. members with solid sobriety and strong professional experience), working with them to prepare manuscripts, and implementing any changes suggested by the Conference. Sometimes, a book or pamphlet can take a long time to come to fruition. Take as an example the pamphlet Can A.A. Help Me, Too? for African-American alcoholics, approved by the Conference in 2001. The idea came up originally in 1970, with proposal for a cartoon book for black alcoholics, but its time had not come, and it was turned down by the Conference. The need came to the fore again in the 1990s and in 1998 a proposal for a pamphlet directed to the Black/African American alcoholic came from a group, went through the district and area assembly, was passed on to the General Service Office by the delegate, and placed on the Conference agenda. The 1999 Conference recommended that a draft be prepared and brought to the 2000 Conference for consideration. The trustees' Literature Committee appointed a subcommittee to work on the project, and a call for stories by black alcoholics went out to all Conference members. Meanwhile, the pamphlet engendered some lively discussion and while the majority of groups were in favor, there was also some strong opposition from members who felt that publication of such a pamphlet would set black alcoholics apart, rather than making them a part of A.A. Others, however, pointed out that the goal was to inform and attract still-suffering black alcoholics who needed to know that African Americans were sober, active members of the Fellowship. By the end of 1999, the subcommittee had received 34 stories and selected 14 to pass on to the G.S.O. publications department for editing. Because of the time needed to collect the stories, it was not possible to have a draft ready for the 2000 Conference, which received a progress report. After input from the Conference, the editing proceeded and in addition to numerous revisions, two new stories were added. The final draft went to the 2001 Conference, which approved the Literature Committee's recommendation for publication. Conference approval means that a piece of literature carries the A.A. message and represents a good cross section of the Fellowship. Equally significant, though, is what it does not mean. It does not imply criticism or dis-approval of any other publications, whether published by A.A. or outside the Fellowship. For example, many inter-groups and central offices publish material such as meeting lists and other informational leaflets for local members. These publications are genuine A.A. literature, because they provide a necessary service to members and reflect the experience of A.A.'s in the local community. Service material published by G.S.O. informational pieces and guidelines do not go through Conference approval, though they contain shared experience from a good cross section of the Fellowship and often incorporate excerpts from Conference-approved publications. And because it would be impossible to put each issue of periodicals such as Box 4-5-9, other G.S.O. bulletins, or the A.A. Grapevine through a two-year procedure, these too are not Conference approved, though the Conference has long recognized them as A.A. literature. Telling A.A. members what to read and not to read is clearly not the business of the Conference. But when new members search out the group literature table at their first meeting, when middle-timers have questions, when old-timers want to widen their knowledge and understanding, the words "This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature" on a piece of literature assures them that the message has been the result of several group conscience decisions--the ultimate authority for A.A. literature. BOX 4-5-9, APRIL-MAY 2005 A.S.A.P. Always Say A Prayer IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3385. . . . . . . . . . . . Success vs. Gloom-and-Doom From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2006 3:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII See Excerpt from the "The Exact Quote..." Thread Below: -------------- No More Myths: Let's be sure nobody takes this statement by Bill W and trumpets, "Hah! See. A one percent success rate." (I've seen it done.) That's not what it means at all! Visionary: Like someone introducing a new product, Bill was looking at how many prospects were not reached and offers a number to emphasize, "If we keep on going there is little doubt that much good will result, but the surface of the problem would hardly be scratched." In saying that "a vast procession of the world's drunks has passed in front of us ... 25 million of them," he is putting forward an image of how important A.A. can be. Most Never Came to A.A.: The 25 million alcoholics he speaks of died somewhere in the world in the 25 years Alcoholics Anonymous had been around. Only a very few came "through the doors of A.A.." A "mind experiment, " as Albert Einstein suggests, proves that. For all 25 million of them to visit exactly one meeting of one group, the average group would have hosted 300+ per year. For each of them to talk with exactly one A.A. member, the average member would have talked with 15 per year. As the robot on Lost In Space would say, "That does not compute." :-) Reasoning: My calculation is based on an estimated 75,000 group-years. (I added up the annual census of groups for first 25 years.) Similarly, it is based on an estimated 1,600,0000 member-years (I added up the annual census of members for first 25 years.) Think about it. It makes sense. :-) History Challenge: Can anyone find the source of Bill's estimate of 25 million of the worlds drunks? It sounds to me like some agency may have estimated "one million per year" and Bill multiplied that by 25 years. That is just a guess. Some other historian may have a real answer. ____________________ En2joy! Tom En2ger -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "ArtSheehan" > > What is the quantitative number "of alcoholics who came to AA" at any > particular period of time? Nobody knows, but it was likely substantial > and likely remains substantial. In an address to the 1960 General > Service Conference, Bill W commented: > > "I took note", the co-founder pointed out, "that in this generation > which has seen AA come alive, this period of 25 years, a vast > procession of the world's drunks has passed in front of us and over > the precipice. Worldwide, there would appear to have been something > like 25 million of them. And out of this stream of despair, illness, > misery and death, we have fished out just one in a hundred in the > last 25 years." > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3386. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 95% First Year Dropout Myth From: Billlwhite@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2006 2:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernie, The article you refer to was written by Don McIntyre and appeared in Volume 18, Number 4, 2000, issue of Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly, pp. 1-18.. The title was "How well does A.A. work? An Analysis of published A.A. surveys (1968-1996) and related analyses/comments. Bill White In a message dated 4/23/2006 3:57:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kurtzern@umich.edu writes: There was also an article in the *Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly* a few years ago that dissected this too widespread fallacy. Perhaps someone can give the exact citation, which I do not have at hand right now? ernie kurtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3387. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Reading lists for AA study groups From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2006 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If anyone can make it to the National Archives Workshop (or knows someone who is going) there is a chance that "A House Full of Miracles" might be available there for purchase. That's where I picked up my copies a few years ago when it was first aired. It was described then as being intended to be a pilot production for a more expanded video targeted to a History Channel, AandE or PBS viewing audience. Also, the revised (and previous) "Markings On the Journey" videos from GSO Archives are wonderful and informative works. I believe the first version of "Markings on the Journey" was not Conference-approved. The video "My Name is Bill W" is also a great film. It has one notable historical inaccuracy (probably for poetic license and time restraints) of showing Ebby and Bill working and drinking together in New York City prior to the stock market collapse in the great economic depression. Ebby lived in Albany, NY (and Vermont) and, with a very notable exception regarding an airplane flight from Albany to Vermont, he and Bill did not do all that much drinking together. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Stonebraker Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 10:32 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Reading lists for AA study groups Joe A. asked: "Can you tell us where these films are available for local sharing?" I believe "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" is still sold at Dr. Bob's Home and the earlier one, "DAWN OF HOPE," which came from the same place, may be out of circulation. I would suggest you write or check out their website. Both are about 30 minutes long which makes them convenient to play at meetings. Bob S. ?????????? ----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Joe Adams Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:48 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Reading lists for AA study groups Can you tell us where these films are available for local sharing? Joe Adams (sober_in_nc at yahoo.com) __________________________________________ Robert Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) wrote: Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3388. . . . . . . . . . . . Panel 37 From: theresa . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2006 12:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all! I'm new to this group,and was wondering if there is anywhere I could get(or read) a copy of the General Service Conference report from panel 37('87-'88)? I volunteered to share on concept five at next months area meeting,and heard and interesting concept five story that involves that panel.I have a list of our past delegates,but that particular one is no longer with us. I love all the contributions to this group,it's taught me alot already.Thanks, Theresa IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3389. . . . . . . . . . . . link for directions to Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills, N.Y. From: Gene . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2006 4:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here from the Stepping Stones web site is a link for "mapquest" directions to Bill and Lois' house... http://www.steppingstones.org/map.ivnu Near Katonah, N.Y. Rt 684 is the big highway close by...easy to get to... Plan on coming.... Gene in Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3390. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2006 9:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi We need to encourage folks to visit the AAHistoryLovers web site and take advantage of the search function for perusing through past posting on subjects. There is much in the archives that is of interest to this question. Lois Wilson's paternal grandfather, Nathan Clarke Burnham, practiced law, medicine and was also a minister of the Swedenborgian Church. He wrote a book "Discrete Degrees" about the relation Swedenborg had found between the spiritual and natural life. On January 24, 1918, spurred by rumor that Bill W might soon go overseas (World War I duty) he and Lois were married at the Swedenborgian Church of the New Jerusalem in Brooklyn, NY. The wedding date was originally Feb 1. Lois' brother Rogers Burnham was best man. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:26 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Was Bill a Swedenborgian? Having done some reading on Swedenborg's beliefs and understanding of spitituality, I wonder how much Bill W. was in contact with the Swedenborgians? The higher power as we understand him sounds very close to their teachings... Gene in Westchester ------------------------------------------------------------------ This from some of their beliefs: Love Is Life Love, Swedenborg says, is the basic element of reality. It is the source of all life, the essence of God. Our souls are individual finite forms of love, our bodies serving as mirrors of that inner essence. As we live, we choose what kind of love we will be. We may choose to regard ourselves as the only reality--our own needs, desires, and feelings as all important. Or we may choose to focus on others. In the former instance, we shrink in spirit, allowing a part of our potential as loving beings to atrophy. In the latter instance, we grow spiritually, heightening our awareness of the nature of love and thus also of the nature of ourselves and God. Truth Is Love In Action Truth is the way love works. Most of us sense that. Actions we perform out of love are honest actions, genuine expressions in a physical form of what love means, or the truth of love. Swedenborgians feel that ultimately the two are inseparable, a part of the same reality. Actualized love is truth, and hence faith and charity are especially significant in human living. Swedenborg defines faith as a kind of inner sight, a perception of what is true. Charity is founded in the desire to do service and live a useful life, beginning with the choice of career or life work. The spiritual life involves the active development of a useful and meaningful life in service to the betterment of the world as a whole. Whereas the religious life often connotes withdrawal from the world and life, active participation in the world is a commitment to actualizing faith and charity. The life of charity and faith parallel the union of love and truth which is the essence of God. Freedom of the Will Swedenborg emphasizes the responsibility of all people to develop their own beliefs and live their lives accordingly. Without free will in spiritual things the human being can in no wise advance into light, i.e., into truths and goods of the church, or procure himself a life. Without that free will he would not be a human being but only a figure and a phantom. For his thought would be without reflection, consequently without judgment and thus in Divine things which are of the Church he would have no more ability to turn than a door without a hinge, or with one fastened with a bolt of steel. His will, too, would be devoid of decision, hence no more active towards justice or injustice than the stone on the mound under which lies a dead body...." (Coronis, 24 28) An Inner Meaning Within the Bible Swedenborg likens the Spiritual teachings to a parent teaching a child. .. explaining all things according to their genius and capacities, although he himself thinks from an interior or deeper ground. Otherwise it would be like teaching what would not be learned. (Arcana Coelestia, 2533) Thus the scriptures are written on the literal level in plain language expressing the truth and wisdom of God as it is adapted to our limited human understanding. The Bible also contains a deeper meaning, an inner essence, in addition to its obvious and overt meaning. Swedenborg notes in The True Christian Religion: The Word in its essence is spiritual. Descending from Jehovah the Lord, and passing through the angelic heavens, the Divine (in itself unutterable and imperceptible) became level with the perception of angels and finally the perception of man. Hence, the Word has a spiritual sense, which is within the natural, just as the soul is within the body, or as thought is in speech, or volition in action. The belief that all things have an inner reality, as well as an outer manifestation is a significant concept for the whole of Swedenborgian thought. Swedenborgianism This, then, is the living reality of Swedenborg's teachings. In stressing freedom, diversity, and individualism, he issued a challenge to individuals, churches, and other organizations to be committed to the human growth processes and to express their personal commitment in ways as diverse as their numbers. Sensitivity to, and respect for, each individual's "internal church," or spirituality, is what Swedenborgianism is really all about. One primary pathway advocated in the Swedenborgian Church for spiritual growth is a specialized study of scripture, enabling the diligent student to become aware of the inner-penetration of nature and spirit, of our natural world here and the universal spiritual world. In addition, an expanding awareness of spiritual reality is encouraged by the exploration of dreams and by prayer and meditation practices. And perhaps the most popular of Swedenborg's spiritual growth practices is his Zen-like discussions on "being useful." Teilhard de Chardin once said, "Do not forget that the value and interest of life is not so much to do conspicuous (although we have this ambition) as to do ordinary things with the perception of their enormous value." For Swedenborg, such a focus provides the ground for future spiritual growth. As Paul Zacharias, a Swedenborgian minister, observes in his pamphlet This We Believe, "Everyone who lives up to the best he knows, whether Christian, Jew, Moslem, or Pagan, is truly a member of the church Invisible." --------------------------------------------------------------- Now if you have had the patience to get this far... the idea of service...giving of yourself...It's all there. Gene Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3391. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: Hugh D. Hyatt . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/24/2006 12:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As a lifelong 4th-generation practicing Swedenborgian with 13+ years of sobriety and and almost as many in active service to A.A., I agree that many aspects of A.A.'s program are remarkably similar to some of the primary tenets of Swedenborgianism. On the other hand, much as I would like to conclude otherwise, it seems clear to me that Bill W. was little affected by Swedenborg's teachings, despite being married in a Swedenborgian church in New York City into an established Swedenborgian family. He struggled with issues whose resolution would be obvious -- at least intellectually -- to almost any serious Swedenborgian. I must also note that other Swedenborgian alcoholics disagree with me, but I conclude it's due to well-meaning but wishful thinking on their part. Gene is alleged to have written, on or about 22-Apr-06 14:26: > > Having done some reading on Swedenborg's beliefs and understanding of > spitituality, I wonder how much Bill W. was in contact with the > Swedenborgians? > > The higher power as we understand him sounds very close to their > teachings... > > Gene in Westchester -- Hugh H. Bryn Athyn, PA USA Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. -- Ronald Reagan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3392. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/23/2006 5:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Gene: You raise an interesting point since I cannot recall any remarks in anything I've read about Bill regarding his thoughts about the BUrnham's relgious background as Swendengorgians. Since he and Lois lived so many years in Dr. Burnhams' home I can only assume that they talked about Dr. Burnhams ideas and beliefs. Les IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3393. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 95% First Year Dropout Myth From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2006 11:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I wish I could see the article Bill White refers to. Is it possible that it might be on the Internet for easy downloading? I've often wondered about these statistics that don't paint a very good picture of AA's success rate. I do know that we get lots of people who just drop in and then drop out right away, but I think the recovery rate becomes far better among those who stick around for at least a year and give it a real college try. Mel Barger ___________________________________ From the moderator: Mel, Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas) and Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, New York) are currently putting together the most complete study I have seen on AA success statistics, both early and modern. From the draft version of that study, we can see that the AA Triennial Survey figures show that 53% of the newcomers drop out before they get to their fourth month. But 56% of those who get into their fourth month, make it to the end of the year. That totally backs up your observations, which are based, of course, on 56 years of experience in AA, and seeing what actually happens. That is not too bad, because that is an overall 26% success rate measured over the first year. How well do people do after their first year? Pretty good, it turns out, and it seems to be getting better and better. We're doing twice as well now as we were back in 1977. At this point, 50% of the people who attend AA meetings in the US and Canada have anywhere from 5 to 60 years of sobriety. In 1977: 37% of the people attending AA meetings were in their first year, 38% had between 1 and 5 years in the program, and 25% had 5 to 60 years in the program. In 2004: 26% of the people attending AA meetings were in their first year, 24% had between 1 and 5 years in the program, and 50% had 5 to 60 years in the program. More and more AA members are achieving long term sobriety. As a result, in 1977 the average AA member had 4 years sobriety, whereas in 2004 the average had risen to over 8 years sobriety. To interject my own opinion on one aspect of these figures, I believe that many of the changes that have been made in AA between 1935 and the present, have been made in order to improve long term sobriety. AA teaching is based, not on airy theological or psychological theories, but on concrete experiential evidence and pragmatic observation. In 1939, nobody really knew how the program had to be structured to achieve 5 years of sobriety, because nobody had that much. By 1955, there were some people who had achieved up to 20 years of sobriety, and these people had learned valuable things from their experience. They weren't stupid. They understood the program a whole lot better at 20 years of sobriety than they had at 3 and a half years of sobriety. Some of the things that looked like good ideas back in 1937 or 38, had been proven to be not really good ideas if you wanted people to obtain 20 or more years of sobriety. Even though I have always believed that AA needs to keep in contact with its Historic Heritage (back during its first 30 years) in order to maintain its vitality, in fact, a serious argument can be made that modern AA does a better job in some ways than early AA. I never thought I would write these words (gasp!), but look at those statistics above. On the other hand, maybe part of this increase in our ability to keep people sober for longer and longer times, comes from the fact that we of today have a whole shelf of useful books about early AA history to help us, written by people like Mel Barger (with a grateful tip of my hat to you), Mary Darrah, Sally Brown, Ernie Kurtz, Bill Pittman, Robert Fitzgerald, William Borchert, and so on. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3395. . . . . . . . . . . . "A House Full of Miracles" From: Fritz689 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2006 8:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If anyone is interested in obtaining a copy of "A House Full of Miracles" send me (Fritz689@adelphia.net) your pertinent information and I can make arrangements for your copy to be sent to you. All proceeds from copies of this film go to the Dr. Bob's House Foundation. I live a short distance from Dr. Bob's in Akron and visit there often, enjoying the opportunity to help others enjoy what I have found there. Gratefully Yours, Fred Ings 2404 E. 29th St. Lorain, Ohio 44055 ______________________________ Robert Stonebraker (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) wrote: Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes "A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3396. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there AA literature reviews? aa bibliography site From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2006 1:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII my site www.aabibliography.com is just exactly this type of site look for the beginners book list page you can print it in pdf http://www.aabibliography.com/beginnersbooks.htm LD Pierce aa history nut dallas tx IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3397. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob Ps Exit Letter... From: erb2b . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2006 3:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HI.. Im in an interesting club here in Minnesota these days. I"d like to post a copy of Bob Pearsons our former (General Manager at GSO) letter about "Rigidity" in AA in it. Since i have retired from Archives International i have put my archives away but need a copy of Bobs letter. Would some please email that to me? Thanks!! Corey F. (erb2b at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3398. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hazelden Foundation and book publishing From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/25/2006 4:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This should shed some more light without me explaining. This is from Writers Market, a service for authors and writers: About HAZELDEN PUBLISHING AND EDUCATIONAL SERVICES: Hazelden is a trade, educational and professional publisher specializing is psychology, self-help, and spiritual books that help enhance the quality of people's lives. Products include gift books, curriculum, workbooks, audio and video, computer-based products, and wellness products. "We specialize in books on addiction/recovery, spirituality/personal growth, and prevention topics related to chemical and mental health." Freelance Facts: Established: 1954 Publishes trade paperback originals and educational materials (videos, workbooks, pamphlets, etc.) for treatment centers, schools, hospitals, and correctional institutions. Publishes 100 titles/year. Receives 2,500 queries/year. Receives 2,000 manuscripts/year. 30% of books from first time authors. 50% of books from unagented writers. Pays 8% royalty on retail price Offers variable advance. Peace, Danny S IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3399. . . . . . . . . . . . How did Ebby know that Bill W. was in such trouble? From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2006 8:22:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi History lovers, Can anyone tell us how Ebby Thacher learned that Bill Wilson was in trouble with his drinking? Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3400. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2006 5:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This thread prompts me to ask a question that has been on my mind for some time, which is about Bill's mother, Emily Wilson, and her studies in osteopathic medicine. I have not been able to learn much about the specific course of her study in Boston, or about how she might have communicated her ideas to Bill later in life. But there are overlaps between osteopathy and not only Swedenborgianism but also (and perhaps more directly) the mind-cure and New Thought religions that flourished in Boston in the late 19th century. Dick B. has written some about early AA's connections to New Thought, but I wonder if there is much informaton available about Emily Wilson's training in osteopathy, her exposure to New Thought and other Swedenborgian-derived philosophies in Boston, and any communications she might've had with Bill on these topics? Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3401. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: link for directions to Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills, N.Y. From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2006 9:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Please note that the correct address is Katonah, not Bedford Hills. The AA literature indicates that Bill and Lois lived in Bedford Hills. If you drive around Bedford Hills, you'll see some nice houses and trees, but you won't find Stepping Stones. Katonah is the next town. john lee Gene wrote: Here from the Stepping Stones web site is a link for "mapquest" directions to Bill and Lois' house... http://www.steppingstones.org/map.ivnu Near Katonah, N.Y. Rt 684 is the big highway close by...easy to get to... Plan on coming.... Gene in Westchester IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3402. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did Ebby know that Bill W. was in such trouble? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2006 8:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mel Barger and Les Cole ___________________________________ FROM: "Mel Barger" (melb at accesstoledo.com) Hi Trixie, The information I had was that Ebby, while staying at Calvary Mission, had visited friends in Wall Street offices and was told about Bill's situation. We can assume that these were friends both Ebby and Bill had known in better days. Ebby, though sober only two or three months, then called Lois and was invited to come over, though she might not have told Bill about the call. That resulted in Ebby's dropping in on Bill and finding him in a very drunken condition, as related in Bill's Story in the Big Book. Ebby stayed sober for 2-1/2 years and then drank again in 1937. He had frequent troubles for a number of years, though he was also employed at times and did well for short stretches. In 1953, an AA friend bought him an airline ticket for Dallas, where he was treated at Searcey W.'s clinic. He stayed in Texas until 1961 and reportedly had his longest period of sobriety there. As the author of "Ebby: The Man Who Sponsored Bill W.," I felt considerable gratitude for Ebby's action in helping Bill, which benefited all of us. He had many personal demons to battle, but he did succeed at various times. He was sober the last 2-1/2 years of his life and received excellent care from Mickey and Margaret McPike, who treated alcoholics in a comfortable old farmhouse near Galway, New York. He died in 1966. Mel Barger ___________________________________ FROM: "LES COLE" (elsietwo at msn.com) Hello trixiebella.... I'm sure that many in the group will answer you in depth, but the simple answer is that they were lifelong drinking buddies. Each knew the other's problems. There are details in PASS IT ON and other books. Les C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3403. . . . . . . . . . . . MYSQL project venture From: Jim . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2006 12:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For the benefit of group members who maintain AA history web sites and web sites which provide AA reference sources: Hi Group! I'd like to add a feature to silkworth.net that requires knowledge of MYSQL, which I have none, though I have attempted in the past to no avail.I'd like to give the visitor to silkworth.net the ability to add, update, edit files to specific files/categories, such as general AA history (pre, past, present andamp; possible future), local/regional/etc..aa histories, AA legalities and the like, to name just a few.I just don't know how to do the initial setup with MYSQL. The software is considered freeware/GNU, and I have already downloaded it to my machine - not yet uploaded to the server. I would like to set it up similar to this site with same functions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Francis_of_Assisialong with the search feature. I have no idea how much is involved in such a venture.Is there anyone in the group who has knowledge of MYSQL and would be willing to help me out with this? Or possibly fill me in on the positives/negatives - why I should or should not pursue this? Ever Grateful,Jim M,Winston-Salem, North Carolinahttp://silkworth.net/ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3404. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bob Ps Exit Letter... From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/26/2006 7:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cory, would this be what your looking for? Joe N. 1986 GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE CLOSING TALK by Bob Pearson At the closing brunch on Saturday morning, Bob Pearson (G.S.O. senior adviser), who is retiring early next year, gave a powerful and inspiring closing talk (excerpted below) to the 36th Conference. (This talk was rescheduled from Friday afternoon.) Our greatest danger: rigidity This is my 18th General Service Conference - the first two as a director of the Grapevine and A.A.W.S., followed by four as a general service trustee. In 1972, I rotated out completely, only to be called back two years later as general manager of G.S.O., the service job I held until late 1984. Since the 1985 International Convention, of course, I have been senior adviser. This is also my last Conference, so this is an emotionally charged experience. I wish I had time to express my thanks to everyone to whom I am indebted for my sobriety and for the joyous life with which I have been blessed for the past nearly 25 years. But since this is obviously impossible, I will fall back on the Arab saying that Bill quoted in his last message, "I thank you for your lives." For without your lives, I most certainly would have no life at all, much less the incredibly rich life I have enjoyed. Let me offer my thoughts about A.A.'s future. I have no truck with those bleeding deacons who decry every change and view the state of the Fellowship with pessimism and alarm. On the contrary, from my nearly quarter-century's perspective, I see A.A. as larger, healthier, more dynamic, faster growing, more global, more service-minded, more back-to-basics, and more spiritual - by far - than when I came through the doors of my first meeting in Greenwich, Connecticut, just one year after the famous Long Beach Convention. A.A. has flourished beyond the wildest dreams of founding members, though perhaps not of Bill himself, for he was truly visionary. I echo those who feel that if this Fellowship ever falters or fails, it will not be because of any outside cause. No, it will not be because of treatment centers or professionals in the field, or non- Conference-approved literature, or young people, or the dually-addicted, or even the "druggies" trying to come to our closed meetings. If we stick close to our Traditions, Concepts, and Warranties, and if we keep an open mind and an open heart, we can deal with these and any other problems that we have or ever will have. If we ever falter and fail, it will be simply because of us. It will be because we can't control our own egos or get along well enough with each other. It will be because we have too much fear and rigidity and not enough trust and common sense. If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A. today, I would have to answer: the growing rigidity the increasing demand for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; pressure for G.S.O. to "enforce" our Traditions; screening alcoholics at closed meetings; prohibiting non- Conference-approved literature, i.e., "banning books"; laying more and more rules on groups and members. And in this trend toward rigidity, we are drifting farther and farther away from our co- founders. Bill, in particular, must be spinning in his grave, for he was perhaps the most permissive person I ever met. Bob Pearson (senior adviser) _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erb2b Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:42 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bob Ps Exit Letter... HI.. Im in an interesting club here in Minnesota these days. I"d like to post a copy of Bob Pearsons our former (General Manager at GSO) letter about "Rigidity" in AA in it. Since i have retired from Archives International i have put my archives away but need a copy of Bobs letter. Would some please email that to me? Thanks!! Corey F. (erb2b at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3405. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Was Bill a Swedenborgian? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2006 8:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Hugh From what I can glean from readings, I'd conjecture that Bill was a "closet Christian." I don't mean to sound flippant but I don't know how else to describe him in this area. Dr Bob was an Episcopalian. In 1947 Bill W took instructions in the Catholic faith from Monsignor (later Bishop) Fulton J Sheen. Bill was introduced to Bishop Sheen by Fulton and Grace Oursler. Oursler, who wrote "The Greatest Story Ever Told" and Bill became very close friends and likely shared the same respect for Christianity in general. Bill's instructions by Sheen lasted for about a year after which Bill lost interest. My sense (more a guess) is that Bill was strongly motivated by public relations considerations to not directly associate with a specific denomination. There are aspects of the AA program that really encompass the common and altruistic threads of all religious denominations - except AA folks insist on using the term "spiritual" instead of "religious" as if "religious" was a pejorative. In regards to Swedenborgianism my guess is that Lois W would be a more fruitful candidate for investigation than Bill given her grandfather's influence. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3407. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: link for directions to Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills, N.Y. From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2006 7:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I know of several instances in New England where one's mailing address is a different town than where one lives. My family's summer camp is in the Town of Derby but the mailing address is Newport. I am told by someone who lived there that Bedford Hills, Bedford Village, and Katonah are all in the Town of Bedford. What town are Stepping Stones taxes paid to? Tommy H in Baton Rouge At 20:09 4/26/2006 , John Lee wrote: >Please note that the correct address is Katonah, not Bedford Hills. The AA >literature > indicates that Bill and Lois lived in Bedford Hills. If you drive > around Bedford Hills, you'll see some nice houses and trees, but you > won't find Stepping Stones. Katonah is the next town. > john lee > >Gene wrote: > Here from the Stepping Stones web site is a link for "mapquest" >directions to Bill and Lois' house... > >http://www.steppingstones.org/map.ivnu > >Near Katonah, N.Y. Rt 684 is the big highway close by...easy to get >to... > >Plan on coming.... >Gene in Westchester [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3408. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth Birthday Celebration, W.Long Branch NJ, 7/22/06 From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2006 10:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You are cordially invited to the third annual Dr. Silkworth birthday celebration! Saturday, July 22, 2006 at 3:00PM (rain date July 29, 2006) At his gravesite in Glenwood Cemetery, Route 71 (Monmouth Rd.), West Long Branch NJ. Speakers: Barbara Silkworth (a family member) and Mitchell K. (author of "How It Worked - The Story of Clarence H. Snyder and the Early Days of AA in Cleveland") Dr. William Duncan Silkworth is the author of the two letters in the "Doctor 's Opinion" in the Big Book "Alcoholics Anonymous" and is known as a friend to millions of alcoholics worldwide. He worked with Bill Wilson, AA's co-founder in N.Y.C., after Bill finally got sober in 1934. He gave deep understanding and great encouragement to an infant society in the days when a lack of understanding or a word of discouragement might easily have killed it. He freely risked his professional reputation to champion an unprecedented spiritual answer to the medical enigma and the human tragedy of alcoholism. Without his blessing, our faith might well have died in its birth. He was a luminous exception to the rule that only an alcoholic understands an alcoholic. He knew us better than we knew ourselves, better than we know each other. Many of us felt that his medical skill, great as that was, was not at all the full measure of his stature. Dr. Silkworth was something that it is difficult even to mention in these days. He was a saintly man. He stood in an unusual relationship to truth. He was able to see the truth of a man, when that truth was deeply hidden from the man himself and from everyone else. He was able to save lives that were otherwise beyond help of any kind. Such a man cannot really die. We wish to honor this man, a gentle doctor with white hair and china blue eyes. Dr. Silkworth lived on Chelsea Avenue in Long Branch, attended Long Branch High School where he has been inducted in that school's Hall of Fame, graduated from Princeton University, and lived for a while in Little Silver. He was born on July 22, 1873 and died on March 22, 1951. PLEASE BE SURE TO BRING A LAWN CHAIR OR SOMETHING TO SIT ON. If you have any questions please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell). Directions: Take the Garden State Parkway (north or south) to Exit 105 (Route 36), continue on Route 36 approximately 2.5 to 3 miles through 5 traffic lights (passing Monmouth Mall, two more shopping plazas, and several automobile dealerships). Watch for green road signs stating "Route 71 South, West Long Branch and Asbury Park" (this is before the sixth light). Take this turnoff to the right, past Carriage Square and bear right onto Route 71 (Monmouth Road.) Glenwood Cemetery appears very quickly on the left. The entrance is marked by two stone pillars and the name. Once inside the cemetery, bear left, go up the hill and make the first right (a hard right). The gravesite is near the first tree on the right. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3409. . . . . . . . . . . . How did Ebby know that Bill W. was in such trouble? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/27/2006 5:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mel, I remember Clancy, in one of his talks, indicating that Ebby's visit to Bill was generated by Ebby's participation in the Oxford Group. After Ebby had been sober a few months, Ebby's small discussion Oxford Group received guidance that Ebby needed to witness to another drunk. To get the mission over as painlessly as possible, Ebby told his Oxford discussion group that he would find Bill Wilson and witness how God had entered Ebby's life. john lee pittsburgh ________________________ From the moderator: Does anyone in the group have a text or source from the early AA period establishing that this statement is true? Did Ebby's Oxford Group meeting in fact, in one of their group guidance sessions, tell him that they had received guidance that he needed to witness to another drunk? Or was Clancy simply speculating here, and giving his hypothesis about what he guessed might have happened? Remember that Clancy's time in AA does not go back to the 1930's, so that he is not a first hand witness to any of those events. On the other hand, he knew a lot of the oldtimers, and may have had good evidence for saying this. Let's follow the canons of good historical research please, and talk about historical facts that can be established by hard evidence. Clancy may have been correct, but speculating about that gets us nowhere. Is there independent evidence that what Clancy said was correct? Does anybody know the source of Clancy's information? These are the questions that a good historian needs to ask. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator Professor Emeritus of History Indiana University IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3410. . . . . . . . . . . . Our greatest danger: Rigidity From: TomE . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2006 10:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII *[Complete text from The 36th General Service Conference Final Report, 1989]* /At the closing brunch on Saturday morning, Bob Pearson (G.S.O. senior adviser), who is retiring early next year, gave a powerful and inspiring closing talk (excerpted below) to the 36th Conference. (This talk was rescheduled from Friday afternoon.)/ ** Our greatest danger: rigidity This is my 18th General Service Conference--the first two as a director of the Grapevine and A.A.W.S., followed by four as a general service trustee. In 1972, I rotated out completely, only to be called back two years later as general manager of G.S.O., the service job I held until late 1984. Since the 1985 International Convention, of course, I have been senior adviser. This is also my last Conference, so this is an emotionally charged experience. I wish I had time to express my thanks to everyone to whom I am indebted for my sobriety and for the joyous life with which I have been blessed for the past nearly 25 years. But since this is obviously impossible, I will fall back on the Arab saying that Bill quoted in his last message, "I thank you for your lives." For without your lives, I most certainly would have no life at all, much less the incredibly rich life I have enjoyed. Let me offer my thoughts about A.A.'s future. I have no truck with those bleeding deacons who decry every change and view the state of the Fellowship with pessimism and alarm. On the contrary, from my nearly quarter-century's perspective, I see A.A. as larger, healthier, more dynamic, faster growing, more global, more service-minded, more back-to-basics, and more spiritual--by /far/--than when I came through the doors of my first meeting in Greenwich, Connecticut, just one year after the famous Long Beach Convention. A.A. has flourished beyond the wildest dreams of founding members, though perhaps not of Bill himself, for he was truly visionary. I echo those who feel that if this Fellowship ever falters or fails, it will not be because of any outside cause. No, it will not be because of treatment centers or professionals in the field, or non-Conference-approved literature, or young people, or the dually-addicted, or even the "druggies" trying to come to our closed meetings. If we stick close to our Traditions, Concepts, and Warranties, and if we keep an open mind and an open heart, we can deal with these /and any other/ problems that we have or ever will have. If we ever falter and fail, it will be simply because of us. It will be because we can't control our own egos or get along well enough with each other. It will be because we have too much fear and rigidity and not enough trust and common sense. If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A. today, I would have to answer: the growing /rigidity/--the increasing demand for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; pressure for G.S.O. to "enforce" our Traditions; screening alcoholics at closed meetings; prohibiting non-Conference-approved literature, i.e., "banning books"; laying more and more rules on groups and members, laying more and more rules on groups and members. And in this trend toward rigidity, we are drifting farther and farther away from our co- founders. Bill, in particular, must be spinning in his grave, for he was perhaps the most permissive person I ever met. One of his favorite sayings was, "Every group has the right to be wrong." He was maddeningly tolerant of his critics, and he had absolute faith that faults in A.A. were self-correcting. And I believe this, too, so in the final analysis we're not going to fall apart. We won't falter or fail. At the 1970 International Convention in Miami, I was in the audience on that Sunday morning when Bill made his brief last public appearance. He was too ill to take his scheduled part in any other convention event, but now, unannounced, on Sunday morning, he was wheeled up from the back of the stage in a wheelchair, attached with tubes to an oxygen tank. Wearing a ridiculous bright-orange, host committee blazer, he heaved his angular body to his feet and grasped the podium--and all pandemonium broke loose. I thought the thunderous applause and cheering would never stop, tears streaming down every cheek. Finally, in a firm voice, like his old self, Bill spoke a few gracious sentences about the huge crowd, the outpouring of love, and the many overseas members there, ending (as I remember) with these words: "As I look over this crowd, I know that Alcoholics Anonymous will live a thousand years--if it is God's will." /Bob Pearson (senior adviser) / [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3411. . . . . . . . . . . . Rigidity, Bob P., and the right of a group to be wrong From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2006 4:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bob P.'s farewell speech to the 1989 General Service Conference, "Our Greatest Danger: Rigidity." The complete published text is available at http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html#rigid The text was provided by Tom Enger (and can also be found in AAHistoryLovers Message 3410). ______________________________ Bob P. was General Manager of the General Service Office from 1974 to 1984, and then served as Senior Advisor to the G.S.O. from 1985 to 1990. During the 1989 General Service Conference, Bob gave a powerful and inspiring closing talk to the conference at the closing brunch on Saturday morning. It was an especially significant occasion, because he knew that he was going to retire early the next year, and that this would be his last General Service Conference. Excerpts from that farewell speech were published in "The 36th General Service Conference Final Report, 1989," which is the version given on the internet at http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html#rigid and in AAHistoryLovers Message 3410. ______________________________ Perhaps the most important sentence in Bob P.'s farewell speech was the following: "If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A. today, I would have to answer: the growing rigidity -- the increasing demand for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; pressure for G.S.O. to 'enforce' our Traditions; screening alcoholics at closed meetings; prohibiting non-Conference-approved literature, i.e., 'banning books'; laying more and more rules on groups and members." And in that talk, Bob P. also pointed to one of the most basic and fundamental AA principles, which came straight from Bill Wilson's mouth. As Bob notes, "one of [Bill's] favorite sayings was, 'Every group has the right to be wrong.'" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3412. . . . . . . . . . . . Population and percentage of alcoholics figures From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2006 6:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob's Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 and the numbers given there. I found a few quick numbers which were a little surprising to me but: Roughly 6% of the US population was alcoholic per an HHS survey. A note regarding that survey is at: http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/pre1995pres/910930.txt My calculations are (10.5 million / (76 million * 100 / 43)) The population of the world in 1950 and 1960 respectively was 2.55 billion / 3 billion from: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762181.html and http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopulationdata/a/worldpopulation.htm The percentage of alcoholics surprised me as being low, at least from the numbers which I have been told (verbally, with no references) since I have been in the program. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3413. . . . . . . . . . . . RE Was Doctor Bob an Episcopalian? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/28/2006 7:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Doctor Bob was raised in the Congregational and Christian Endeavor traditions. Puritans. He and his wife Anne were members of The Presbyterian Church in Akron. They also attended St. Lukes, Westside Presbyterian, and lastly, St. Paul's Episcopal in Akron. Bob's funeral was held at St. Paul's. Listing Doctor Bob as Episcopalian paints an incomplete picture of his church attendance. john lee ArtSheehan wrote: From what I can glean from readings, I'd conjecture that Bill was a "closet Christian." I don't mean to sound flippant but I don't know how else to describe him in this area. Dr Bob was an Episcopalian. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3414. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob P''s Rigidity Talk: 1986, not 1989 From: Rick Swaney . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/30/2006 5:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, correct year is 1986. Rick S. Ohio _________________________________ Rick, Thanks. I apologize for letting the mistake get through. This was one person's typo, which a number of others started copying, including me, without thinking about it. Arthur Sheehan sent in a photocopy of the report for that year, just to doubly establish that the 36th General Service Conference was held in 1986, and that you can read Bob P.'s speech in the official report for that year. For a corrected version, see: http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html#rigid For an artist's sketch of one of the conference sessions that year, courtesy of Arthur Sheehan, see http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html Bob P. is a very good man, and I should note that his story is in the Big Book. See: "AA Taught Him to Handle Sobriety," 3rd edit. (1976) pp. 554-561, and 4th edit. (2001) pp. 553-559. Apologies again for the error in the date. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3415. . . . . . . . . . . . AA photographs for framing From: marty_martyjs . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2006 10:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Our group is looking for a source of AA photographs that can be framed and put on the wall. Any suggestions? Thank you for your service. Marty S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3416. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant May Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/1/2006 4:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII May 1919 - Bill returns home from service. (Dec 1934 to) May 1935 - Bill works with alcoholics, but fails to sober any of them. Lois reminds him HE is still sober. March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous. May 1939 - Lois W Home Replacement Fund started at Alcoholic Foundation. May 1949 - The first AA meetings in Scotland were held in Glasgow and Edinburgh. May 1950 - Nell Wing became Bill W's secretary. May 1951 - Al-Anon is founded by Lois W. and Anne B. May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. (sometimes reported as April 26, 1939) May 1, 1940 - Rollie H, Cleveland Indians, first anonymity break on national level. May 1, 1941 - The first Wisconsin AA meeting was held at a hotel in Milwaukee. May 2, 1941 - Jacksonville, FL newspaper reported the start of an AA group in Jacksonville. May 3, 1941 - The first AA group in New Orleans, Louisiana, was formed. (sometimes dated as May 2, 1943) May 3, 1941 - Democrat Chronicle in Rochester, NY, reported first annual AA dinner at Seneca hotel with 60 attending. May 4, 1940 - Sunday Star reported founding of first AA group in Washington, DC. May 6, 1939 - Clarence S of Cleveland told Dr. Bob, his sponsor, he would not be back to Oxford Group meetings in Akron and would start an "AA" meeting in Cleveland. May 6, 1946 - The long form of the "Twelve Traditions" was published in the AA Grapevine. May 8, 1943 - Akron AA Group celebrates 8th anniversary with 500 present and sober. May 8, 1971 - Bill W buried in private ceremony, East Dorset, Vermont. May 10, 1939 - Clarence S announced to the Akron Oxford Group members that the Cleveland members were starting a meeting in Cleveland and calling it Alcoholics Anonymous. May 11, 1935 - Bill W made calls from the Mayflower Hotel and was referred to Dr. Bob. May 11, 1939 - first group to officially call itself Alcoholics Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland. (some sources say the 18th) May 12, 1935 @ 5 pm - Bill W met Doctor Bob at the home of Henrietta Seiberling. May 15, 1961 - Bill W's mother, Dr Emily Strobell, died. May 16, 1941 - Ruth Hock finds that Joe W. (or V.), credited with coming up with the name Alcoholics Anonymous, has a "wet brain". May 17, 1942 - The Dayton Journal Herald published pictures of AA members wearing masks to protect their anonymity. May 17, 1942 - New Haven, Conn paper has article on AA. Picture shows faces of members sitting in a circle. May 18, 1950 - Dr. Bob tells Bill "I reckon we ought to be buried like other folks" after hearing that local AA's want a huge memorial. May 19, 2000 - Dr. Paul O., Big Book story "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" (renamed "Acceptance Was the Answer" in the 4th edition) died at the age of 83. May 28, 1974 - The first World Service Meeting of AA outside North America was held in London. May 29, 1980 - "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was published. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3417. . . . . . . . . . . . Recent photos of John Seiberling From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 2:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One of our members kindly sent in two recent photos of John Seiberling. http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html John was Henrietta Seiberling's son, and is the last living person who was around when the original, early meetings between Bill W. and Dr. Bob occurred in the summer of 1935. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3418. . . . . . . . . . . . Ernest Kurtz on Bill W. and Sam Shoemaker falling out From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 2:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Ernest Kurtz Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 To: Glenn Chesnut Subject: Re: Bill W. and Sam Shoemaker falling out? Glenn, In briefest outline, Bill and Sam fell out when Bill left the OG. After Buchman's 1939 praise of Hitler, Sam repented a bit and himself left the OG in 1941. His 1955 St. Louis talk reflected that. Copies of relevant correspondence may be at Brown, though more likely in Bill White's materials at Chestnut Hill in Bloomington. Cf. also this note from Not-God, which I think sums up the matter rather well: "For Shoemaker leaving the OG, cf. Clark, The Oxford Group, pp. 54, 80; Shoemaker (New York) to Wilson, 27 June 1949: 'God has saved you from the love of the spotlight, Bill, at least if not from the love of it -- from getting too much into it, and it is one of the biggest things about you.... If dear Frank could have learned the same lesson long ago MRA might have changed the face of the earth.'" ernie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3419. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s religious background From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 2:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 3413 from John Lee johnlawlee@yahoo.com (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) said: Doctor Bob was raised in the Congregational and Christian Endeavor traditions. Puritans. He and his wife Anne were members of The Presbyterian Church in Akron. They also attended St. Luke's, Westside Presbyterian, and lastly, St. Paul's Episcopal in Akron. Bob's funeral was held at St. Paul's. Listing Doctor Bob as Episcopalian paints an incomplete picture of his church attendance. john lee ______________________________ Dr. Bob attended the Congregationalist Church while he was a child in Vermont. Puritans were back in the 1600's. There were no Puritans anymore by Dr. Bob's time, and there hadn't been any for a long time. Some Congregationalists during Dr. Bob's childhood were Protestant liberals, while others were more traditional in their beliefs. Dr. Bob also belonged as a youth to an interdenominational Protestant evangelical youth group called Christian Endeavor, which was designed to appeal to teenagers. Dr. Bob was born on August 8, 1879. He wasn't a Fundamentalist during his childhood, because the Protestant Fundamentalist movement didn't start until the 1910's and 1920's, and was extremely small even in the 1930's. The Christian Endeavor youth group was not a Fundamentalist group in the modern sense. The Congregationalist Church never (to the best of my knowledge) got on board the Fundamentalist bandwagon. They are part of the United Church of Christ (UCC) today. The UCC has been in the news recently because they wanted to air a commercial on television which made it clear (without overdoing it) that people who were gay or lesbian were welcome in their church services. They are one of the most liberal Protestant denominations in the U.S. today. At their seminaries, their ministerial students are taught modern historical-critical biblical interpretation. They are not biblical literalists. This is the church Dr. Bob was brought up in as a child. This is important to note, because there are people who note that Dr. Bob belonged to groups which read the Bible and sometimes prayed and sang hymns to Jesus, and have jumped from that to the claim that Dr. Bob was brought up believing what were essentially Fundamentalist Protestant beliefs and doctrines and dogmas. They don't say this explicitly, but it is clear from the conclusions they draw about how AA "must" be practiced to get back to "genuine old time AA." All Christians read the Bible and sometimes pray and sing hymns to Jesus. That observation does not tell you whether they are Protestant or Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. They could be Amish and refuse to drive automobiles or use electricity. The Berrigan brothers who carried out protests against the Vietnam War that landed them in prison, were associated with all the major liberal causes in the U.S. during the 1960's, but they read the Bible and prayed to Jesus, because they were Catholic priests. People change their religious beliefs as they get older. Childhood religious beliefs may or may not be relevant to understanding what an older person believes. Dr. Bob was born on August 8, 1879 which meant that he was already 55 years old when he met Bill Wilson. Most people by the age of 55 no longer believe the same things they did when they were 15. Dr. Bob and Anne were by that time attending the Presbyterian Church, and later switched to the Episcopalian Church. There were not a lot of Congregationalist Churches in the upper midwest. The Presbyterians and Episcopalians would both have been "socially appropriate" for a doctor or lawyer. Both of these denominations (at that time) had enough of an upper middle class feel to be appropriate for people of their background, and this may have been a far more important issue than any specific doctrinal beliefs. But obviously we don't know about that for sure. THE OXFORD GROUP As good AA historians have known for years, it is the Oxford Group connection that is truly important for understanding where both Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson were coming from. The Oxford Group had strong links to the Protestant missionary groups of the early twentieth century which were trying to preach the Christian gospel in non-Christian countries like China and most of India. This was the world of H. A. Walter and John R. Mott. Frank Buchman did missionary work in China before he came to Cambridge and Oxford. The Oxford Group also had strong links to the Keswick Holiness movement, which centered around the annual Keswick Convention in the English Lake District, and mixed traditional gospel preaching with (sometimes) the kind of Catholic mysticism which we see in St. John of the Cross (look for example at Hannah Hurnard, "Hind's Feet on High Places"). Frank Buchman had his decisive spiritual experience while attending the Keswick Convention. The Oxford Group also had strong links to the kind of late nineteenth century American and British revivalism which we see in Henry Drummond ( see http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html ), who was closely associated with the great revivalist preacher Dwight L. Moody ( see Mel B's book "New Wine," http://www.walkindryplaces.com/books.html ) But most of these people accepted some at least of the findings of modern biblical criticism, and most of them put themselves on record as being totally opposed to the new Fundamentalist movement. They were all aware, for example, that if you put the sayings of Jesus as found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke in three parallel columns, that the wording was slightly different in the three different gospels. So they were not biblical literalists in the Fundamentalist sense. That was a key part of the background of the Oxford Group. Even more importantly, the Oxford Group represented a rephrasing, in modern language, of the old message of the founders of the evangelical movement back in the 1730's, see: 1. The Oxford Group and the Eighteenth Century Evangelical Movement http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang1.html 2. Power to Heal the Soul http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang2.html 3. House Parties, Confession, Surrender, and Guidance http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang3.html 4. Quiet Time, Guidance, and God-Bearers http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang4.html 5. The Four Absolutes and the Dangers of Legalism http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang5.html 6. The Balanced Life: Seeking the Golden Mean http://hindsfoot.org/oxchang6.html The Oxford Group went back to the world of Jonathan Edwards and John Wesley in the 1730's, that is, back to the beginnings of the modern evangelical movement. DR. BOB'S RELIGION Dr. Bob (along with most of the early AA people) read the Bible and prayed sometimes to God the Father directly and sometimes to Jesus. This is so obvious and well established, that it requires no elaborate "proofs." It is equally obvious that the three most important early sources of ideas for the early AA movement came (in order of importance) from (1) the Oxford Group, (2) the Upper Room and the Southern Methodists ( http://hindsfoot.org/UpRm1.html ), and (3) New Thought as represented by Emmet Fox's "Sermon on the Mount" and James Allen's "As a Man Thinketh" (see http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html ). Questions about Christian Endeavor and Swedenborgianism are interesting, and I am still very curious myself about the latter, but they should not divert us from seeing the main and obvious sources of early A.A. ideas. 1939 AND AFTERWARDS: The most important thing that happened in early AA, was that already in the Big Book, after long debate, all references to Jesus were taken out except for one referring to him as a good man and a wise teacher, and most but not all biblical quotations. ("Not my will but thine be done" is Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane.) In the AA writings from the 1940's (the Akron pamphlets, the Detroit/Washington D.C. pamphlet, the Little Red Book, Twenty Four Hours a Day, and so on), the same policy was followed. No prayers to Jesus, and no statement of any Christian doctrines about being saved by Jesus' blood shed on the cross, and so on. Even Father John Doe's Golden Books, which employ more biblical quotations and references to traditional Christianity than any other early AA literature, followed that same policy. The three portions of the New Testament which were still emphasized as containing good AA teaching, were chosen in part because none of these three portions of the New Testament make any reference to the divinity of Jesus or being saved by Jesus' death on the cross or praying to Jesus: see the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5 to 7), the epistle of James, and 1 Corinthians 13. What makes that significant was that it is not easy to find any place at all in the New Testament where those doctrines do not appear. It took work for them to find three reasonably long places in the New Testament which totally avoided those doctrines, which means it almost certainly was deliberate. Romans 7 to 8 would otherwise have been an obvious section of the New Testament to have newcomers read, because that was the place where the New Testament stated in clearest fashion the basic principle which lay behind AA, the Oxford Group, and the early evangelical teaching of Jonathan Edwards and John Wesley: only God's grace had the power to free human beings from deeply obsessive and compulsive sins. When we could not stop by using our own will power, and found ourselves powerless, we had to call upon the power of liberating grace. But Romans 7 to 8 continually put it in terms of "the spirit of Christ," and the early AA people had found that God "as we understand him" will save us from our alcoholic compulsion, even if we do not approach God by praying to Jesus and calling upon Jesus' name. And already by 1939 and the early 1940's, the majority of early AA's wanted to "deChristianize" AA to the extent of freeing members from any necessity of HAVING to follow any traditional Christian doctrines or practices at all. In somewhat awkward fashion, most AA's continued to use the Upper Room as their main meditational literature all the way down to 1948. Some prayers in the Upper Room are to God the Father, but others are to Jesus. Lots of biblical passages are quoted. But since that little pamphlet was published by the Southern Methodists, who were Protestant liberals, the readings in the Upper Room hardly ever in fact referred to the divinity of Jesus or being saved by Jesus' blood shed on the cross (in fact, I cannot remember ever reading any passages in the little pamphlets from those days which talked about either of those ideas). And the Upper Room also pretty much stayed away from any of the miracle stories in the Bible. When Richmond Walker published Twenty Four Hours a Day in 1948 in Daytona Beach, Florida, and began printing it on the printing press in the county courthouse and distributing it under the sponsorship of the Daytona Beach AA group, AA people all over the United States started clamoring for copies of the new book. http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla1.html http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla2.html http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html Because Rich followed the same formula used in the Big Book and all the AA writings of the 1940's. He eliminated all (or most) references to Jesus, and never prayed to Jesus. He used almost no biblical passages at all, although he did use a few: "And underneath are the everlasting arms," for example, and references to two of Jesus' parables, the Prodigal Son and the Good Samaritan, both of which had special significance to recovering alcoholics. We came to God like the Prodigal Son, and discovered to our surprise that he welcomed us with open arms and all forgiving love. Our duty then became to act like the Good Samaritan and do whatever it took to help other suffering alcoholics (the people who were left to die by the side of the road, with everyone else walking by in disgust and refusing to lift a finger to help). The story of the Prodigal Son is in Luke 15:11 to 32, and the story of the Good Samaritan is in Luke 10:29 to 37. The priest and the levite (sort of a deacon or assistant priest) in the story of the Good Samaritan represented all the religious people who insist on following every single point of doctrine and dogma, and following every one of their hundreds and hundreds of religious rules, and tell you that you will go to hell if you don't read the Bible in one specific translation, and so on. They were afraid that if they tried to help the man who was lying beside the road dying, and he died on them while they were ministering to him, that they would be rendered ritually contaminated. Because the rules they followed said that those who had touched a corpse were "unclean" and could not approach the altar of God, without elaborate cleansing rituals. And the direction they were walking on the road meant that they were going to Jerusalem to help in the Temple services. (The man who lay beside the road had been going from Jerusalem to Jericho, and the priest and the levite came upon him while they were walking down the road going the opposite direction, which meant they were going from Jericho to Jerusalem.) The priest and the levite were willing to let people die rather than take the risk of breaking a single one of the hundreds and thousands of rules and minor distinctions which they had written down and memorized. The man who truly acted as a child of God in the little story which Jesus told was a Samaritan, which meant that he didn't believe in most of the Bible at all. He only believed in five books out of the entire Bible, and he interpreted those in a different kind of way. He did not, for example, believe in any kind of last judgment or life after death. When you were dead, you were dead as far as he was concerned. People like the priest and the levite were convinced that the Samaritans were going to hell. (The real historical Jesus, the Jesus for example of the Sermon on the Mount, disagreed with these rule bound fanatics, with all their doctrines and dogmas and desire to scold and condemn other people. And he had a real sympathy for the Samaritans, in spite of some of their religious beliefs, and on one occasion praised a pagan Roman official for the power of his faith.) Both of these parables (the Prodigal Son and the Good Samaritan) were referred to by other AA authors during the 1940's. Father John Doe for example (Father Ralph Pfau of Indianapolis) in his Golden Books. http://hindsfoot.org/pflou1.html http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou2.html http://hindsfoot.org/PfLou3.html Father John Doe wrote his autobiography and entitled it "Prodigal Shepherd." By that he meant that, as a Catholic priest, he was supposed to have been the shepherd of his flock. But like the Prodigal Son, he had gone astray, and had to return home and ask for God's forgiveness and mercy. And he lived and worked, after he had gotten sober, at the Convent of the Good Shepherd in Indianapolis, which continues this image. God had not only welcomed him back, but had allowed him to become one of his good shepherds again, reaching out this time to the fallen alcoholics of the world. AA's ROOTS: AA's roots are almost totally Christian. This is obvious and undeniable, and does not have to be "proven" with elaborate proofs. It is equally obvious and undeniable, that most of the surface Christian elements, and all of the references to Christian doctrines like the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, and the substitutionary doctrine of the atonement, began being removed in 1939 and the early 1940's BY THE ORIGINAL AA PEOPLE THEMSELVES, the people who had gotten sober prior to 1939 in Akron and the New York City area. This is what was done in the Akron pamphlets and the Little Red Book (all of which had Dr. Bob's approval), in the same way that it was going on in other parts of the United States and Canada during the 1940's. You cannot play "Akron vs. New York" on this issue. We find none of the original AA people (who got sober prior to 1939) complaining about the Big Book once it had been published, or any of the AA literature that was published during the 1940's. They agreed that this approach was best. But AA's roots still lay back in the Christian tradition, and particularly in the Protestant evangelical movement called the Oxford Group. That has to be the starting place for studying AA's roots. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3420. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator out of town May 3-9 plus another notice From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 4:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I will be out of town and unable to get at a computer from Thursday, May 3 till Tuesday, May 9, 2006. If you could hold off on sending stuff in for a few days, I would appreciate it. ______________________________ Also, as another note (more a reminder than a notice), in the basic guidelines for the AAHistoryLovers as established a long time ago, Nancy Olson and the other original members were very clear that they did not want the AAHL to turn into an AA chat group, of which there were already plenty. ______________________________ So we don't post messages that are just statements of opinion, no matter how heartfelt. We try to stick, as much as possible (although it isn't always easy to draw this line one hundred percent), with messages about historical questions which have objective answers, based on verifiable historical facts and documents. A lot of our members have written good books on AA history, and we pride ourselves on also trying to use really good historical methodology in the messages that are posted in the group. Also they jump on me, and write me highly critical emails if I don't (grin). Like a prominent AA historian who wrote to me about six months ago and said, "and are you posting fairy tales in the AAHistoryLovers now?" And likewise, a message which is just a personal response to someone else's message should be sent directly to the email address of the person who posted the message (such as "oh gee, I really loved your message, it was tremendously good" or "you dirty dog, your message betrayed all the holy principles which we truly good AA members hold dear"). We can't post those messages either. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator South Bend, Indiana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3421. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA photographs for framing From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 4:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII General Services has a package of wonderful shots. These photos are fit for framing. Kilroy W. 4021 Club Philadelphia PA _________________________________ Also from: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) GSO in NY archives has 2 different sets of photos reasonably priced and perfect for hanging in meeting rooms. Frames purchased locally will cost you extra. It's a great way to develop interest in AA archives. YIS Shakey Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3422. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ernest Kurtz on Bill W. and Sam Shoemaker falling out From: Archie Bunkers . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 5:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "One of the biggest issues with MRA was the fabled 'Thank heaven for Hitler' remark by Buchman. In this interview published in August 26, 1936, Buchman said "I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler...." Taken from: http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/moralrearm.html Archie Bunkers _________________________________ The full quotation from that website is: One of the biggest issues with MRA was the fabled "Thank heaven for Hitler" remark by Buchman. In this interview published in August 26, 1936, Buchman said "I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism ... Of course I don't condone everything the Nazis do." This statement brought criticism to Buchman as a Nazi lover and his statement of Himmler being a great lad got him the label of a pro-Nazi. _________________________________ > From: Ernest Kurtz > Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 > To: Glenn Chesnut > Subject: Re: Bill W. and Sam Shoemaker falling out? > > Glenn, > > In briefest outline, Bill and Sam fell out when > Bill left the OG. After Buchman's 1939 praise of > Hitler, Sam repented a bit and himself left the > OG in 1941. His 1955 St. Louis talk reflected that. > > Copies of relevant correspondence may be at Brown, > though more likely in Bill White's materials at > Chestnut Hill in Bloomington. Cf. also this note > from Not-God, which I think sums up the matter > rather well: > > "For Shoemaker leaving the OG, cf. Clark, The > Oxford Group, pp. 54, 80; Shoemaker (New York) to > Wilson, 27 June 1949: > > 'God has saved you from the love of the spotlight, > Bill, at least if not from the love of it -- from > getting too much into it, and it is one of the biggest > things about you.... If dear Frank could have learned > the same lesson long ago MRA might have changed the > face of the earth.'" > > ernie IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3423. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Recent photos of John Seiberling From: Fritz689 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/3/2006 11:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, The John Sieberling pictures you shared with everyone have the WRONG caption. John's wife's name is BETTY, my wife's name is Katie Ings and we go to Stan Hywet Gardens and Museum often. John and his wife BETTY still enjoy returning to the family grounds and meeting people and sharing a moment or two as often as they can. Gratefully Yours, Fred Ings _____ From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Subject: Recent photos of John Seiberling One of our members kindly sent in two recent photos of John Seiberling, which are the ones Fred is talking about: http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html As I understood the captions which he placed on the two photos when he sent them to me, the woman on the right in the top picture (and on the left in the bottom picture) is named Katie and is John Seiberling's wife. Fred says no, that is incorrect. So two questions for our group: (1) Is that woman named Betty or Katie? And (2) is that woman John's wife or Fred's wife? I'm getting more confused instead of less confused! Can we have some additional expert input here? I have met John (at one of the National Archives Workshops in Akron which Gail LaC. organized) but have never met his wife, so I am dependent here on people who know both of them to help me get the right captions on these photos. John was Henrietta Seiberling's son, and is the last living person who was around when the original, early meetings between Bill W. and Dr. Bob occurred in the summer of 1935. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3424. . . . . . . . . . . . Let It Begin With Me From: rrecovery2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/4/2006 10:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Let It Begin With Me---Where is that quote from? Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3425. . . . . . . . . . . . Who were the "fortunate few"? From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/8/2006 9:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who were the "fortunate few" who were able to "give nearly all their time" to AA work at the time the Big Book was being written? Big Book page 19: "None of us makes a sole vocation of this work, nor do we think its effectiveness would be increased if we did. We feel that elimination of our drinking is but a beginning. A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes, occupations and affairs. All of us spend much of our spare time in the sort of effort which we are going to describe. A few are fortunate enough to be so situated that they can give nearly all their time to the work." Does anyone know who these fortunate few were? Thanks history lovers IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3426. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Let It Begin With Me From: remcuster@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2006 5:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 40th Anniversary AA International at Denver, from remcuster and Theresa L. (plus remarks by Mel B., Jan R., and Lance W.) ______________________________ From: remcuster@aol.com (remcuster at aol.com) It was the "Theme" for the A.A. Convention in Denver, 1975 ______________________________ From: theresa leisinger (brideofaa at yahoo.com) I happened upon a mention of it from "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age". p.xi Landmarks in A.A. History 1975 40th Anniversary International Convention at Denver Colorado. Over 19,000 join Lois in repeating the theme, "Let It begin with Me" ______________________________ From: Lance Weldgen (lance_1954 at yahoo.com) In Al-Anon's Declaration similar to AA'sWhen anyone, anywhere...." ______________________________ From: "Mel Barger" (melb at accesstoledo.com) IT'S IN THE SONG, LET THERE BE PEACE ON EARTH, AND LET IT BEGIN WITH ME. Mel Barger ______________________________ From: "Jan L. Robinson" (jbaldwin at imbris.com) The only one that I know is a song "Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me." Jan IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3427. . . . . . . . . . . . new find orig writer of book September Remember From: diazeztone . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2006 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII i received this email on my aa history bibliography website today May 9 2006 regarding a page I had done on the alcoholism book September Remember by Pseudonym Elliot Taintor From : Caleb Mason Sent : Monday, May 8, 2006 10:31 AM To : Subject : September Remember This novel was written by Gregory Mason (my grandfather) and his wife Ruth Fitch. Caleb Mason I am awaiting futher news and proof about this LD Pierce editor aabibliography.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3428. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s military awards From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2006 8:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all. I am not aware of any decorations Bill may have received in the service. Has anyone got any inkling of what Bill was talking about, specificially when he says in his story, "for had not the men of my battery given me a special token of appreciation." (1:3) What was the "token of appreciation"? Do we know or have heard of, any medals, commendations, honors etc.? Thanks. Peace, Danny Schwarzhoff IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3429. . . . . . . . . . . . Charlie''s lead? (of the Joe and Charlie tapes) From: Eric . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2006 9:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I love the Joe and Charlie tapes, but along this line I was wondering if there is anywhere online where Charlie's lead can be downloaded. I found Joe's on xa-speakers.org but haven't found anything by Charlie, if one even exists. Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3430. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby T. Letter (1962) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2006 10:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Envelope Postage Stamp: Delmar N.Y. January 23, 1962 9 AM Envelope From: E.T.Thacher #1 Oakwood Place Delmar, N.Y. U.S.A. Envelope To: Mr. B Whitney Hillmer, Harbour Master, 217 Essex Street Sarnia, Ontario Canada Letter: c/o K.R.Thacher #1 Oakwood Place Delmar, N.Y. January 22, 1962 Dear Whit- Thanks for your Christmas card and I am sure you would have rec'd one from me, except that on Dec.5th, last, I was "took" with pneumonia and hospitalized until the 15th in Dallas. From there to a clinic for convalescence until Dec. 27th, when I took a plane for N.Y. City. The latter because the medicos said I would not be fit to work for some time, and without employment I could not very well stick around Dallas. Good old Bill Wilson met me at the airport and I spent a few days with the Wilsons in their home in Bedford Hills, then on here. Delmar is a suburb of Albany, which city is my birthplace and where I was "brung up". It's a lot different after 24 yrs. absence! I am feeling better, and just now getting my legs back under me. I have no plans as yet, just trying to take it, day at a time,-and I assure you I never have been too good at that sort of thing, but we'll give it a whirl. Enclosed, two snaps, all I could find but you are welcome,-they are pretty bad, both taken in Dallas in '54. I unearthed them from a large folder I was able to salvage, the afternoon I cleaned my room, the day prior to my departure. Take it easy,-and keep those ships moving. All the best Ebby (Ebwin T. Thacher) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3431. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who were the "fortunate few"? From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/9/2006 11:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Comments from Jay L. and Tom H. ______________________________ From: "Jay Lawyer" (ejlawyer at midtel.net) Bill W. for one. Due to his work history (getting tight at the wrong times) no one would give him work so he spent alot of time to AA work. Dr. Bob worked at the hospital and it is claimed he worked with at least 5000 people in his 15 years of sober life. That just names a couple that were so situated. I would think that some of the salesmen that went around the country that were given names of people who wrote to 'The Alcoholic Foundation' were also meant to be included in that statement. Jay ______________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: trixiebellaa Who were the "fortunate few" who were able to "give nearly all their time" to AA work at the time the Big Book was being written? Big Book page 19: "None of us makes a sole vocation of this work, nor do we think its effectiveness would be increased if we did. We feel that elimination of our drinking is but a beginning. A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes, occupations and affairs. All of us spend much of our spare time in the sort of effort which we are going to describe. A few are fortunate enough to be so situated that they can give nearly all their time to the work." Does anyone know who these fortunate few were? Thanks history lovers ______________________________ From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) I have taken it as figurative speech with no one in particular in mind. I doubt that it can be demonstrated with any degree of certainty one way or the other. The Big Book is full of examples like this. Tommy H in Baton Rouge ______________________________ From the moderator: It seems to me that the operant phrase is "nearly all their time," meaning people who spent the majority of their time every week working with alcoholics instead of working at their jobs. Dr. Bob is said to have spent very little time on his medical practice as compared to his work sponsoring alcoholics, which was the reason that he and Anne had so little money for clothes, household expenses, automobile expenses, and so on. (See Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers) Sgt. Bill S., who knew AA No. 3 well, says that AA No. 3 made much less money than most lawyers because he neglected his legal practice to do AA work, but he told Sgt. Bill that "he got a million dollars in gratitude" as his payment. (As recounted in Sgt. Bill's book about early AA: http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html ) It depends on how you define "nearly all their time," remembering that Bill W. had a tendency to exaggerate a bit. Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3432. . . . . . . . . . . . SV: Charlie''s lead? (of the Joe and Charlie tapes) From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/10/2006 3:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Bent Christensen (bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com) Hi Eric I'm not sure if this is what you looking for, anyway, you can find a speak where Charlie tells his story on www.pass-it-on.dk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eric skrev: I love the Joe and Charlie tapes, but along this line I was wondering if there is anywhere online where Charlie's lead can be downloaded. I found Joe's on xa-speakers.org but haven't found anything by Charlie, if one even exists. Thanks ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Johanna" (flutters at charter.net) http://www.recoverytimes.com/janc.html http://silkworth.net/freestuff.html ______________________________ From: Azor521@aol.com (Azor521 at aol.com) Charlie's lead can be downloaded Ya might give these a try.......... Floyd J. _http://kischat.com/bigbook/joeandcharlie.html_ (http://kischat.com/bigbook/joeandcharlie.html) _http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm_ (http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm) ______________________________ From: "jim_011591" (jim_011591 at yahoo.com) Try xaspeakers.org and The Primary Purpose Group's website. Regards, Jim ______________________________ From: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) Charlie Parmley spoke at the Akron Founder's Day on June 11, 1994, so you may be able to purchase it from a tape/cd catalogue. Bob S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3433. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Bob''s Sobriety date From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/11/2006 12:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What documentation was used in determining Dr. Bob blackout time frame? I can find reference to everything else. How do we know it was five days since he left for the convention to the time he was picked up at the train station? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3434. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Let It Begin With Me From: okmizlizb . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/11/2006 3:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My father attended the 1975 convention in Denver and told me that they held hands and sang "Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me." Was his memory of this correct? (And/or am I telling the story correctly?) ________________________________________ --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, remcuster@... wrote: > > 40th Anniversary AA International at Denver, > from remcuster and Theresa L. (plus remarks by > Mel B., Jan R., and Lance W.) > ______________________________ > > From: remcuster@... > (remcuster at aol.com) > > It was the "Theme" for the A.A. Convention in > Denver, 1975 > ______________________________ > > From: theresa leisinger > (brideofaa at yahoo.com) > > I happened upon a mention of it from "Alcoholics > Anonymous Comes of Age". p.xi > > Landmarks in A.A. History 1975 40th Anniversary > International Convention at Denver Colorado. > Over 19,000 join Lois in repeating the theme, > "Let It begin with Me" > ______________________________ > > From: Lance Weldgen > (lance_1954 at yahoo.com) > > In Al-Anon's Declaration similar to AA'sWhen anyone, anywhere...." > ______________________________ > > From: "Mel Barger" > (melb at accesstoledo.com) > > IT'S IN THE SONG, LET THERE BE PEACE ON EARTH, > AND LET IT BEGIN WITH ME. > > Mel Barger > ______________________________ > > From: "Jan L. Robinson" > (jbaldwin at imbris.com) > > The only one that I know is a song "Let there be > peace on earth and let it begin with me." > > Jan > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3435. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ebby T. Letter (1962) From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/12/2006 2:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Friends, You can view an actual photocopy of Ebby's 1962 letter and envelope at www.4dgroups.org -- click Download/links, then documents. Bob S., from Indiana )))))))))))))))) --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Bill Lash wrote: > > Envelope Postage Stamp: > Delmar N.Y. > January 23, 1962 > 9 AM > > Envelope From: > E.T.Thacher > #1 Oakwood Place > Delmar, N.Y. > U.S.A. > > Envelope To: > Mr. B Whitney Hillmer, Harbour Master, > 217 Essex Street > Sarnia, Ontario > Canada > > Letter: > c/o K.R.Thacher > #1 Oakwood Place > Delmar, N.Y. > > January 22, 1962 > > Dear Whit- > > Thanks for your Christmas card and I am sure you would have rec'd one from > me, except that on Dec.5th, last, I was "took" with pneumonia and > hospitalized until the 15th in Dallas. From there to a clinic for > convalescence until Dec. 27th, when I took a plane for N.Y. City. The > latter because the medicos said I would not be fit to work for some time, > and without employment I could not very well stick around Dallas. Good old > Bill Wilson met me at the airport and I spent a few days with the Wilsons in > their home in Bedford Hills, then on here. > > Delmar is a suburb of Albany, which city is my birthplace and where I was > "brung up". It's a lot different after 24 yrs. absence! > > I am feeling better, and just now getting my legs back under me. I have no > plans as yet, just trying to take it, day at a time,-and I assure you I > never have been too good at that sort of thing, but we'll give it a whirl. > > Enclosed, two snaps, all I could find but you are welcome,- they are pretty > bad, both taken in Dallas in '54. I unearthed them from a large folder I > was able to salvage, the afternoon I cleaned my room, the day prior to my > departure. > > Take it easy,-and keep those ships moving. > > All the best > Ebby > (Ebwin T. Thacher) > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3436. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill W.''s military awards From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/11/2006 11:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was it a gold ring which he was given, or a wrist watch? A GOLD RING: from khemex@comcast.net (khemex at comcast.net) A few years ago I had the pleasure of going to Wilson House in East Dorset Vermont while I was in the neighborhood on business (an account of this, in detail, was posted by Nancy a year or two ago on this site). At that time they had on display, in the library, a first edition Big Book opened at that page, and next to that sentence was a pair of reading glasses (I suppose Bill's) with a gold ring with an inscription from his unit in the artillery battery during WW I which I was led to believe was the token of appreciation that Bill was referring to. I'm not sure if it's still there and on display, maybe someone who's been there recently can confirm. In Love and Service to others Gerry W. ______________________________ A WRIST WATCH: from gary lockhart (garylock7008 at yahoo.ca) Hi - Gary from Canada - Down at the Wilson House in East Dorset Vermont, there is a wrist watch, to Bill W. from his troops. There is a neat history to go with that watch. It was turned over by relatives a few years ago. ______________________________ From: "jim_011591" (jim_011591 at yahoo.com) They gave him a watch. ______________________________ From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) I was in the Army during the Cuban Missile Crisis and it was a long-established custom to bestow a token of appreciation on officers and senior enlisted men when they left the unit. For us lieutenants it was usually a Zippo cigarette lighter with the regimental crest and a certificate of appreciation signed by the officers of the battalion. This general custom seems to have gone back to Bill's day. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3437. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr. Bob''s Sobriety date From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2006 10:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cheryl As relayed to you in a separate email, refer to "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" pgs 72-75 for a recap of Dr Bob's bender at the AMA Convention in Atlantic City, NJ. The specific reference to "five days" is on pg 73. Which states: "The blackout was certainly more than 24 hours long, because Bill and Anne had waited for five days from the time Bob left before they heard from the nurse. She (in response to Dr Bob's call) had picked him up that morning at the Akron railroad station in what was described as "some confusion and disarray." Also for the information of other History Lovers, the following is what I have been able to glean from various sources in trying to arrive at an estimate of a likely date for Dr Bob's last drink: The date of June 17 looks pretty compelling as Dr Bob's dry date. Barefoot Bill obtained confirmation from the AMA Archives in Chicago, IL that the 1935 Atlantic City, NJ Convention was held from Mon to Fri, June 10-14, 1935. Also, there is a graphic of the AMA convention program circulating on the web that indicates June 10-14. There are also good clues in the literature for a deduction. In AA Comes of Age (pgs 70-71) Bill writes "So he [Dr Bob] went to the Atlantic City Medical Convention and nothing was heard of him for several days." In Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers (pgs 72-75) it cites (with my editing for brevity) Dr Bob ... began drinking ... as he boarded the train to Atlantic City. On his arrival he bought several quarts on his way to the hotel. That was Sunday night. He stayed sober on Monday until after dinner... On Tuesday, Bob started drinking in the morning and ... [checked out of the hotel]... The next thing he knew ... he was ... in the ... home of his office nurse... The blackout was certainly more than 24 hours long ... Bill and Anne had waited for five days from the time Bob left before they heard from the nurse... She had picked him up that morning at the Akron railroad station... As Bill and [Dr Bob's daughter] Sue remembered, there was a 3-day sobering up period... Upon Dr Bob's return, they had discovered that he was due to perform surgery 3 days later... At 4 o'clock on the morning of the operation [Bob] ... said "I am going through with this..." On the way to City Hospital ... Bill gave him a beer ... In the video Bill's Own Story, Bill says he gave Dr Bob a beer and a "goofball" [a barbiturate] on the morning of the surgery. The same information is repeated in Pass It On, pgs 147-149. See also Not God, pgs 32-33. Estimate on the turn of events: June 9 Sun - Dr Bob checked into an Atlantic City Hotel (he had started drinking when he boarded the train on the train on the way in) June 10 Mon -he stayed sober until after dinner June 11 Tue - he began drinking in the morning - later checked out of the hotel. June 12 Wed - he went into a blackout (likely greater than 24 hours) June 13 Thu - Dr Bob's blackout continues (may have arrived at Akron train station) June 14 Fri - Dr Bob picked up by his office nurse in the AM - then by Bill later on (5 days after leaving) - day 1 of 3-day dry out June 15 Sat - Day 2 of 3-day dry out June 16 Sun - Day 3 of 3-day dry out June 17 Mon - Day of surgery - Bill gives Bob a beer and a goofball (3 days after Dr Bob's return) If, by any chance, there might be 1935 Akron City Hospital records available verifying that Dr Bob performed a surgery on June 10, 1935 then that would be conclusive. Otherwise it would be safe to conclude he was off on a bender in New Jersey. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cheryl F Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:14 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Bob's Sobriety date What documentation was used in determining Dr. Bob blackout time frame? I can find reference to everything else. How do we know it was five days since he left for the convention to the time he was picked up at the train station? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> You can search right from your browser? It's easy and it's free. See how. http://us.click.yahoo.com/_7bhrC/NGxNAA/yQLSAA/219olB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3438. . . . . . . . . . . . Rowland Hazard From: Ted Harrington . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2006 1:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My initial interest was in Mr. Rowland Hazard who "saved" Ebby who then "saved" Bill W. I live in La Luz, New Mexico and Rowland's name pops up in conversation around here, as one of the owners who bought and ran the old La Luz Canyon Grist Mill and later a Tile Foundry. He also had the local Inn which catered to clients from the east who would come out west to experience the real wild old west. The story around here is that his well-to-do-family did not know what to do with him and so they sent him out here to get rid of him! Anyway I will be joining you as often as I can. Ted H. (11 years) ______________________________ From the moderator: For an account of our current knowledge about this period in Rowland's life, see Richard M. Dubiel, "The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous," pp. 63 and 65-66. http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html Hazard comes into the story in Dubiel's book because he was not only involved in the Oxford Group at the time he rescued Ebby from the insane asylum in August 1934, he was also a patient of Courtney Baylor (from the Emmanuel Movement). Dubiel writes: "In the fall of 1927, Hazard went on a hunting expedition to Africa for big game and specimens for American museums. He contracted a tropical illness, and on his return to the United States in 1928 .... He established a ranch in southern New Mexico, at La Luz, and shortly organized the La Luz Clay Products Company. He had discovered substantial deposits of high-grade clay for the manufacture of items ranging from roofing tiles to decorative urns and vases. Upon establishing La Luz, he returned to the East Coast to pursue other ventures." "The Hazard family papers ... show that after January 1933, Rowland went through a long period when he was virtually incapacitated by his personal problems. He ceased being actively involved in the ventures he had begun in New Mexico, and his brother- in-law Wallace Campbell had to take over all his regular business." From January 1933 to October 1934, he was a patient of Courtney Baylor, from the Emmanuel Movement. (It was during the latter part of this period, in August 1934, that he helped rescue Ebby from the insane asylum.) The Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club were the only organizations other than AA during that general part of the early twentieth century who had truly notable success in treating alcoholics. Circa the very early 1940's, alcoholics were advised by knowledgeable and responsible people to turn to A.A., the Emmanuel Movement, or a psychiatrist to treat their problem. Rowland was also involved with the Oxford Group at the time he helped rescue Ebby, and as we know, it was the Oxford Group to which Bill Wilson turned for help instead of to the Emmanuel Movement. His choice of the Oxford Group may have been due to Ebby's intervention, and perhaps also seemed easier to accomplish since the Emmanuel Movement and Jacoby Club were linked to Boston, and Bill W. was living in the New York City area, where the Rev. Samuel Shoemaker's Calvary Episcopal Church was the American headquarters of the Oxford Group. ______________________________ Ted, Many of us would be grateful if you and some of the other people in New Mexico who are interested in AA history and archives could dig up any additional information about Rowland Hazard's years in La Luz. Even purely oral tradition among the AA oldtimers of that area would be useable, to help corroborate written records and perhaps fill in a few details. There is new research on Hazard and Jung which is going to be published before the end of this summer, which will change our whole picture of that story. It is turning out that the La Luz period is an important part of the story. It will shed some "luz" on certain aspects of the story that have long been buried in dark "sombra." The account you have given from the local oral tradition in La Luz fits in very smoothly with the new material that is going to be coming out shortly. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3439. . . . . . . . . . . . "My Name is Bill W" available on DVD in June From: sargeantgascan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/13/2006 3:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You might be pleased to know that "my name is bill w" is going to be released on DVD in june, I agree it is a great movie and I was really disappointed when I couldn't find it on dvd after finding my old VHS tapes picture quality so scratched up. --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" wrote: > > The video "My Name is Bill W" is also a great film. It has one notable > historical inaccuracy (probably for poetic license and time > restraints) of showing Ebby and Bill working and drinking together in > New York City prior to the stock market collapse in the great economic > depression. Ebby lived in Albany, NY (and Vermont) and, with a very > notable exception regarding an airplane flight from Albany to Vermont, > he and Bill did not do all that much drinking together. > > Cheers > Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3440. . . . . . . . . . . . Changes to the 12x12 From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/14/2006 2:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jim Blair has an excellent summary of the changes made in the sixteen printings of the First Edition Big Book in message #2258. I wonder if this sort of information is available for the 12x12? It has been apparent to me for some time that the pagination changed over the years, but I have also been told that changes were also made to the text and to the start and end of paragraphs. If this information is not available, when did the 12x12 achieve its current pagination and text? Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3441. . . . . . . . . . . . COSTELLO, CHAUNCEY LLOYD; of Pontiac; age 95. From: Rebos7688@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/19/2006 1:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII COSTELLO, CHAUNCEY LLOYD; of Pontiac; age 95. Born Dec. 30, 1910. Surrendered to God May 11, 2006 surrounded by family and friends. Beloved husband of Vivian for 80 yrs.; father of Robert (Marge) of Houghton Lake; preceded in death by children Arthur Costello, Delores Shear, Grace McCullum, and Dawn Chancy; grandfather of 14; great grandfather of 26; and great great grandfather of 10. Long time member of All Saints Episcopal Church. Owner and operator of Costello Excavating for 40 years. Recognized as the longest living active member of AA with 64 years of sobriety. Memorial Service Wed., May 17 1:30 p.m. at All Saints Episcopal Church in Pontiac. If you ever knew this man would you please send me your name and L.D. Date and a short story to pass on to his family. My name is Henry L.D 8-28-76 I was fortunate enough to know Chauncey for over 36 years. E-mail- _Rebos7688@aol.com_ (mailto:Rebos7688@aol.com) ___________________________________ From: "Cherie" (odaat5 at gmail.com) Date: Sun May 14, 2006 9:19am Subject: Chauncey has passed away Chauncey, the member of AA at the International Convention that was the oldest member there, with now over 60 years of sobriety, passed away on Friday May 12, 2006. He lived in Pontiac, Michigan and started our local Thanksgiving Eve Gratitude meeting 50 something years ago. We are trying to find out more info, so far I cannot find his obituary, but am trying and when I find out more info I will pass it along here. Rest in peace, Chauncey. We will see you again. In AA Service Cherie' P. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3442. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Changes to the 12x12 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/16/2006 7:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Tom The book "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" was published in June 1953. Bill W described the work as "This small volume is strictly a textbook which explains AA's 24 basic principles and their application, in detail and with great care." Betty L and Tom P helped Bill in its writing. Jack Alexander also helped with editing. It was published in two editions: one for $2.25 ($15.50 today) for distribution through AA groups, and a $2.75 ($19 today) edition distributed through Harper and Brothers for sale in commercial bookstores. All printings of the 12and12 continue to be first edition which is rather remarkable since it is over 50 years old. Much of the material that Bill W wrote on the Steps and Traditions in 1940s Grapevine articles went into the development of the 12and12 (see "The Language of the Heart"). A sizable portion of the Traditions material also went in to "AA Comes of Age." The time period of the book release reputedly was at a point when Bill W was experiencing the worst of his long term (and quite severe) episodes of debilitating depression. Many say it is reflected in the tone of the book, however, I don't get a sense of it. The page numbering of the early 12and12 printings do not correspond to current version of the 12and12. They will likely be off by as much as two pages. I don't know at which printing this occurred but the cause behind it was that the typeface was changed and it, in turn, changed the page numbers associated with the text. As far as I can determine there were no wording changes made to the text. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hickcox Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 1:59 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Changes to the 12x12 Jim Blair has an excellent summary of the changes made in the sixteen printings of the First Edition Big Book in message #2258. I wonder if this sort of information is available for the 12x12? It has been apparent to me for some time that the pagination changed over the years, but I have also been told that changes were also made to the text and to the start and end of paragraphs. If this information is not available, when did the 12x12 achieve its current pagination and text? Tommy H in Baton Rouge ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Home is just a click away. Make Yahoo! your home page now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/DHchtC/3FxNAA/yQLSAA/219olB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3443. . . . . . . . . . . . "Loose garment" slogan From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/20/2006 6:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This question was posed by a member of an on-line group to which I subscribe. Any takers? I heard it in a slightly different version, though: "Wear life like a loose coat." ?? Thanks, Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 ------ Forwarded Message > I'm topic person tomorrow morning at my home group , and the slogan about " > wearing your sobriety like loose cloak " has been in my mind. I asked my > sister where it came from as she was the first person to tell me that, and > she thought it was in A day at a time , or the 24 hour meditation book. I > have been looking but have been unable to find it. Does anyone know where it > originated at? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3444. . . . . . . . . . . . Carl Jung and Rowland Hazard From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2006 6:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Group, An article has just been published in the May edition of "History of Psychology," entitled "Verification of C.G. Jung's analysis of Rowland Hazard and the History of Alcoholics Anonymous." It corrects the chronology of Rowland's life, placing his analysis in 1926 rather than the later date which has been assumed. The author is Amy Colwell Bluhm, whose PhD topic was Carol (Fisher) Sawyer Baumann, a cousin of Rowland. Baumann trained as a Jungian in Zurich during the late 20s and 30s. Amy Bluhm found the information about Rowland in Baumann's correspondence with other family members. I've been following the Hazard story for some time myself, and last year I discovered the same information after becoming interested another Hazard cousin, Leonard Bacon. I've put my own article on a web site, http://www.stellarfire.org/ which strangely enough was completed the same week Glenn posted a hint about Amy's article. I have not obtained a copy of the Amy Bluhm article yet, but I look forward to reading it soon. My own article takes a more critical perspective, and perhaps the combination of the two will clear up some of the questions about Jung's role in the events leading up to the formation of AA. Cora ___________________________________ Note from Glenn C., the moderator: This material, which Cora Finch and Amy Bluhm have discovered, is one of the biggest and most startling new discoveries in AA history made in recent years. It changes the dating of the key events, but in the process totally corroborates the basic elements of the traditional AA story about Rowland Hazard's long analysis with Carl Jung, and adds an incredible amount of fascinating personal detail about Rowland and his family, where it turns out that two of his first cousins had also been analyzed by Jung. Amy Bluhm's article was enthusiastically recommended for publication in "History of Psychology" by all the scholars to whom they sent it for reading, including Richard Dubiel, author of "The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous" (2004). http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html Prof. Dubiel's book was one of the major works establishing the fact that Rowland Hazard could not have spent a year in therapy with Carl Jung during the 1930 to 1931 time period, based on documents which had been analyzed by Bill Pittman and William White (the author of "Slaying the Dragon") with similar conclusions. (The importance of Rowland Hazard is that he was one of the Oxford Group people who rescued Ebby Thacher from being committed against his will to an insane asylum for his alcoholism. Ebby then got sober within the Oxford Group, and soon afterwards paid a visit to Bill Wilson, recorded at the beginning of the Big Book, where Ebby explained that there was a spiritual solution to the alcoholic compulsion.) Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3445. . . . . . . . . . . . AA medallions for anniversaries From: dcatini@bellsouth.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2006 10:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey Fellows, Can someone plese tell me when DID AA CHIPS for anniversaries come from and who started them? Sincerely, Denise ________________________________ From the moderator: The question of "who did it first?" is complicated by the fact that there were various kinds of things used in the early days, including round poker chips, square wooden pieces, and so on. If the question is, "which AA group produced the first special metal coins" which were handed out for AA anniversaries, the Indianapolis group claims that they were the ones. They had them stamped by a company that made high school and college rings. Indianapolis, Indiana, was around the 22nd AA group started, so their group did go back to an extremely early period of AA history. See Neil S. (Fishers, Indiana), "History of Indianapolis AA," February 19, 2005: http://hindsfoot.org/nindy2.html "The introduction of Tokens or Medallions probably started here. Since I originally stated this opinion we now have the substantiating correspondence, over the signature of the Archivist of AA World Wide Services Office, stating that as far as New York knows, Indianapolis was the first AA group to give out tokens." If we're talking about something other than stamped metal coins, then we're going to have other groups and other dates listed as "the first ones." Hoosier Glenn South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3446. . . . . . . . . . . . Rockefeller dinner pamphlet From: Charlie C . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2006 7:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi folks, in reading once again AA Comes of Age about the Rockefeller dinner I was struck by the mention in there of the fact that transcripts were made of the talks given at the dinner, and put into a pamphlet by Rockefeller. I looked in the group message archives but didn't see anything about this - may have missed it of course! So my question is, would the text of those talks or the pamphlet be available anywhere? Thanks, this is a wonderfully informative group! Charlie C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3447. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Loose garment" slogan From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2006 8:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It appears four times in Twenty Four Hours a Day (March 21, July 16, March 29, and March 17) ______________________________ From: khemex@comcast.net (khemex at comcast.net) The quote you're looking for, I believe can be found in the Twenty Four Hours a Day book in the "Thought for the day" section of March 21st. In the Spirit of Love and Service to Others, Gerry W ------------------------------ March 21 "All is fundamentally well. That does not mean that all is well on the surface of things. But it does mean that God's in His heaven and that He has a purpose for the world, which will eventually work out when enough human beings are willing to follow His way. 'Wearing the world like a loose garment' means not being upset by the surface wrongness of things, but feeling deeply secure in the fundamental goodness and purpose in the universe." ______________________________ From: "Kimball" (rowek at softcom.net) "Wear the world like a loose garment" ------------------------------ 24 Hours a Day, July 16: "We can believe that God is in His heaven and that He has a purpose for our lives, which will eventually work out as long as we try to live the way we believe He wants us to live. It has been said that we should 'wear the world like a loose garment.' That means that nothing should seriously upset us because we have a deep, abiding faith that God will always take care of us. To us that means not to be too upset by the surface wrongness of things, but to feel deeply secure in the fundamental goodness and purpose in the universe. Do I feel deeply secure? ______________________________ From: sobermuse123@aol.com (sobermuse123 at aol.com) In the 24 Hour a Day Book, for March 29th, there is a reference to "wearing the world as a loose garment." Jeanne M. dos 1-23-81 Concord, NH ------------------------------ March 29 "I must live in the world and yet live apart from God. I can go forth from my secret times of communion with God to the work of the world. The get the spiritual strength I need, my inner life must be lived apart from the world. I must wear the world as a loose garment. Nothing in the world should seriously upset me, as long as my inner life is lived with God. All successful living arises from this inner life." ______________________________ From: "jwm_az" (jwm_az at yahoo.com) The quote is on the page for March 17, in TWENTY-FOUR HOURS A DAY (the "little black book"), in the little Prayer for the Day at the bottom of the page: "I pray that I might wear the world like a loose garment. I pray that I might keep serene at the center of my being." Cheers, James M. 4/1/1987 ______________________________ See http://seniorark.com/senior_links_spiritual.htm which also attributes it to Richmond Walker and Twenty Four Hours a Day. ______________________________ RICHMOND WALKER, AUTHOR OF TWENTY FOUR HOURS A DAY (born Aug. 2, 1892, died on Mar. 25, 1965 with 22 years of sobriety, honored all through Florida AA as one of their greatest figures) From the moderator, Glenn C. Twenty-Four Hours a Day was the second most important book in early A.A., second only to the Big Book in importance. There were periods when more members had a copy of the Twenty Four Hour book than had a copy of the Big Book. This is an important part of AA's Historic Heritage. Most AA people from the 1950's and 60's will tell you that they got sober on two books: the Big Book and the Twenty Four Hour book, both of which they read continually. Twenty-Four Hours a Day was written by AA member Richmond Walker, the second most published AA author (the "big four" early AA authors were Bill Wilson, Richmond Walker, Ed Webster, and Father Ralph Pfau). Richmond Walker got sober in Boston in May 1942, shortly after the first AA group was started there. He eventually ended up in Daytona Beach, Florida, and originally wrote these meditations on small cards, for his own personal use. The Daytona Beach AA group pleaded with him to print the meditations in book form, so they could use them to. The group did that in 1948, using the printing press in the county courthouse, and Rich distributed them from the basement of his home, taking any profit from their sale and contributing it to the New York AA office. Copies of Twenty Four Hours a Day began being obtained by AA people all over the country, and soon replaced The Upper Room as the standard AA meditational book. The traditional understanding in old time AA was that any book or pamphlet sponsored by one AA group could automatically be used by any other AA group which wished to do so. When Rich became too old to keep up the pace, he asked the New York AA office in 1953 if they would take over printing and distributing the books. The New York AA office was at is wit's end in 1952 to 1953, trying to find money to publish Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, and could see no way they could take on trying to find the money to publish and distribute a second new book. Ed Webster was simultaneously offering the New York AA office The Little Red Book, but New York turned his offer down for the same reason. Patrick Butler at the Hazelden Foundation, which was just a big farmhouse on a Minnesota farm at that time, with a small live-in treatment program for alcoholics, told Rich in 1954 it would take over printing and distributing his book, to make sure that AA people still had access to it. This was the beginning of what was eventually to become the giant Hazelden publishing business, but that was only much later, after the psychiatrically oriented people took over control of Hazelden, which had originally been run by just a handful of AA members. Richmond Walker had had nothing to do with the founding of Hazelden, which was in Minnesota. Rich lived in Florida and continued to keep up contacts with Boston and New England, but was not involved with AA in the upper midwest. SOURCES: http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla1.html http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla2.html http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html Photos at http://hindsfoot.org/rwpix1.html ****************************** ****************************** IN THE AA GRAPEVINE: From: "Kimball" (rowek at softcom.net) "Wear life like a loose garment" AA Grapevine, May 1977, "Take My Advice--I'm Not Using It", by Terry B. "I was feeling rather depressed and called my sponsor and found her in a similar mood. I said, "What shall I do?" At first she said, "I don't know. If you figure it out call me back." Then because she is a loving person, a good friend, and has a terrific grasp of the AA program, she shifted into sponsorship gear and told me to do the following: Wear life like a loose garment. Don't take myself so seriously. Count my blessings. Find another alcoholic to work with. Read the Big Book and go to a meeting." ****************************** ****************************** ORIGINALLY FROM ST. FRANCIS ??? From: ny-aa@att.net (ny-aa@att.net) I found on the web that, "Wear xx like a loose garment," is somewhere in the "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" book. In another web find, it appears that that the writer, Richmond W, may have gotten it from St Francis. In Renovation of the Heart, Dallas Willard writes: "The one who is dead to self will certainly not even notice some things that others would - for example, things such as social slights, verbal put-downs and innuendos, or physical discomforts. But many other rebuffs to 'the dear self,' as the philosopher Immanuel Kant called it, will be noticed still, often quite clearly. However, if we are dead to self to any significant degree, these rebuffs will not take control of us, not even to the point of disturbing our feelings or peace of mind. We will, as St. Francis of Assisi said, 'wear the world like a loose garment, which touches us in a few places and there lightly.'" ______________________________ From: "Tom Misteli" (tmisteli@yahoo.com) Jon: It purportedly comes from St. Francis of Assisi; the full quote attributed to him is, "Wear the world like a loose garment, which touches us in a few places and there lightly." ILandS, Tom Misteli Dallas TX 11/29/87 ****************************** ****************************** From the moderator, Glenn C. The expression "wear the world like a loose garment" does not show up anywhere that I could find in "God Calling by Two Listeners," but there is no complete concordance to that book, so I could have missed it. We need to remember that "God Calling," which was one of the major Oxford Group works, was used as a source by Richmond Walker for many of the passages in the fine print sections of his meditations. "God Calling" is still one of the five or six most popular books sold at Christian bookstores, so if anyone could find the quotation there, that would explain not only where Richmond Walker got it from, but the source of many of the other uses of that quotation which one can find on the internet. ****************************** ****************************** SOME THOUGHT IT ORIGINALLY CAME FROM THE BIBLE: From: "John S." (quasso@mindspring.com) I believe that like so many of our sayings and slogans it is an adaptation of the Biblical admonition to "Wear the world like a loose garment" .... I believe that the biblical admonition was to illustrate that folks shouldn't attach themselves to material things too much but rather to put their faith and trust in a Higher Power (Whom I choose to call God). Service is Love, John S. ______________________________ From: Lance Weldgen (lance_1954 at yahoo.com) "Wear the world as a loose garment" is a quote from the Bible. HUGS!!! Lance from colorful Colorado! ______________________________ From the moderator, Glenn C. I used the Bible concordance at http://www.searchgodsword.org/ which is an extremely useful research tool, and could not find any references under either "loose" or "garment" that appeared to match this quotation, in any of the Bible translations that I checked. John S. and Lance W., if it is from the Bible, can you tell us where in the Bible? I can't find it, if it is. ****************************** ****************************** From the moderator, Glenn C. If you do a Google search for the phrase "like a loose garment," you will quickly discover that it has been used by literally hundreds of different people. "johnlawlee" found it in a catchy gospel tune by the notorious Father Divine (who claimed to be God, among other things). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Divine But it is hard to imagine Richmond Walker getting that quote, which he clearly loved so much, from that source (grin)! The immediate source of the phrase in AA circles was from Rich's book, where the many early AA people who read that every morning ran into it four times a year. The ultimate source of the quote is still up for grabs, although St. Francis has been suggested. But if people are claiming St. Francis, do we know WHERE in St. Francis' writings? Remembering that the so-called St. Francis Prayer was not in fact written by St. Francis, but was written by a modern spiritual writer on a little card with a picture of St. Francis on the other side. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3448. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: AA medallions for anniversaries From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/26/2006 7:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe engraved Zippo lighters were one of, if not, the earliest mementos given out on sobriety anniversaries - particularly the first annual milestone. They were relatively inexpensive, widely available, and in those days just about everyone sobering up smoked. Also Sister Ignatia had a sacred heart of Jesus patch she gave out to alcoholic patients discharged from St Thomas Hospital. I believe it was cloth material of some sort. It's difficult to establish accurate primacy with these type of matters. Anything that had inherent personal appeal was quickly copied. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3449. . . . . . . . . . . . 12 Steps From: puggreen2008 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/25/2006 7:54:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greetings all, I heard someone sharing on the history of the steps the other night and they mentioned a book called 'In The Beginning' and this book contains the steps ( 50 of them ) from which 12 were chosen. Is there any truth in this? Best wishes Des _____________________________________ Note from the moderator: the two best places to look up old books are: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/ http://www.alibris.com/ These are catalogs maintained by the professional dealers in rare and used books. You can find AA books in these two lists also, and can check to see what the going rate is for such-and-such a printing of such-and-such an edition of a particular book, if you just want to see how rare your old book actually is. The problem is that neither of these lists gives any idea as to the contents of the books, and there were an awful lot of books with "In the Beginning" as part of the title. Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3451. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: stepping stones From: and25g . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/22/2006 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just came back from the visit to Stepping Stones. I was told by the person who met me there (his name is Ken B) that Bill and Louis had their furniture in storage after they lost their Clinton st. house and it was moved to the Stepping Stones. They do claim that the kitchen table is the original table where Ebby and Bill met. It looks like Ken B. spends much time at the Stepping Stones and is happy to answer any questions visitors have. I have his e-mail and will invite him to join the group. Thank you, Andrey MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS (and25g at yahoo.com) --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." wrote: > > > Just a couple of points.... > > When I visited with Lois about 3 months before she > passed on there were no glasses in the kitchen just as > there were no glasses in the kitchen when I visited > there soon after she passed on. > > Maybe I'm losing my memory (I do know my short-term is > severely damaged) but can someone refresh it about > Bill and Marty starting what was to become the National > Council in the livingroom > > As far as "THE" table.... it has been reported that > there are a few "THE" tables where Bill and Ebby met. > > As far as the desk in the study on the hill being > "THE" desk where the Big Book was written... I've sat > at that desk many a time and it wouldn't fit in the > office in the Newark office and I someone will have to > fill me in if BandL stored the Clinton St. furniture or > took it with them on all their moves. > > Another thing.... it cannot be classified as "It is > the most important collection of AA artifacts > > and history anywhere." > > I'm tickled pink that you enjoyed yourself so much at > Stepping Stones. I wish more members of the Fellowship > would have your interest in our history. However... we > must temper historical fact with legend. Hey, I may be > totally off base... > > > > > I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in > > Bedford Falls NY (just above NYC) where Bill and > > Lois lived from 1941 on. > > It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly > > interested in AA history. > > > > They have done a marvelous job of keeping it in > > exactly the same condition it was when Bill and lois > > lived there (Lois' glasses are where she left them > > in the kitchen). > > > > What a treasure trove of history! > > > > You can sit at the kitchen table that Ebby and Bill > > sat at in Clinton street when Bill pushed a drink > > over to him and Ebby announced " I got religion". > > You can stand in the living room where Marty Mann > > and Bill formed Council that would become the > > National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence . > > You can sit at the desk where Bill wrote the Big > > Book and the 12 and 12. > > You can see the map filled with stick pins where > > Bill measured the progress of new groups across the > > country. > > You can sit and gaze out the window that he looked > > out when contemplating how he would respond to the > > hundreds of questions > > coming in from all over the country about how to > > start a meeting etc. > > > > The best part - its largely undiscovered by the > > masses. You can get a quiet visit with a volunteer > > tour guide and take your time to savor each part. > > > > It is the most important collection of AA artifacts > > and history anywhere. > > > > I have been to East Dorset (birthplace, childhood > > home, gravesite) > > I have been to Akron. (Dr Bob's house, Mayflower > > Hotel) > > Bedford Falls is the Mother Lode. > > > > www.steppingstones.org > > > > they are having a big picnic on June 3 if you like a > > crowd, > > but I recommend you go when its quiet and no one > > else is there. > > > > Rob White > > Baltimore > > 410 328 8549 > > > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3452. . . . . . . . . . . . Which takes precedence, Long or Short Traditions? From: yankee1gb . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/24/2006 5:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The long form of the traditions were published/adopted first and each provides a more detailed or precise statement than its short form counterpart. The Short form traditions were, however, published/adopted more recently in time and are about the only form commonly mentioned. Does either form take precedent over the other? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3453. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Which takes precedence, Long or Short Traditions? From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2006 12:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII yankee1gb wrote: > The long form of the traditions were published/adopted first and each > provides a more detailed or precise statement than its short form > counterpart. The Short form traditions were, however, > published/adopted more recently in time and are about the only form > commonly mentioned. > > Does either form take precedent over the other? > > Short answer: whichever best applies to a particular situation... what ever yields the best results. While keeping in mind as many of the Traditions [which ever form] and Steps. Long answer: First we need to separate published vs. adopted. The Long Form of the Traditions were first published, in the Grapevine, April 1946, as "Twelve Suggested Points of AA Tradition", a sort of first draft form some say. Then again in the Grapevine, October 1947, "Traditions Stressed in Memphis Talk" in a more finished form recognizable to our membership today. In Pass It On [PIO] pg 324, it states that Bill spent 1947-1950 out in the groups trying, rather unsuccessfully, to "sell" these Long Form Traditions. Sometime in late 1949 it was suggested to Bill by Earl T of Chicago that they needed to be edited down, so Bill [with the help of a few trusted members] did just that. [PIO pg 334] Finally, at the Cleveland Convention, July 29, 1950, the membership of AA, through our elected delegates, officially accepted the Traditions [in the Short Form]. [PIO pg 338] So you see, the Long Form was published first ... but the Short Form was accepted first. And as far as I know, the membership has never specifically voted to accept the Long Form of the Traditions. We HAVE voted and accepted them, as package deals in accepting the revisions of old publication, and newer publications that have come out which included them. But, curiously, never 'just on their own merit'. Never seen any indication of GSO or the Conference EVER trying to place one form in precedence over the other. I have seen some business meetings where individual members, trying to argue against a different point of view, have strongly stated that the version [long or short] they insisted supported their view was superior to the version the opposition used. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3454. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Which takes precedence, Long or Short Traditions? From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2006 10:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We have a short form and a long form of our Traditions. In AA or out of AA, the short version of ANYTHING is NEVER meant to be an amendment, revision or clarification of the original. It is simply an condensed version of the original, hopefully conveying the same intent and spirit. If any clarification is ever needed of a short form version, we go to its LONG FORM parent to discover it. Peace, Danny S --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "yankee1gb" wrote: > > The long form of the traditions were published/adopted first and each > provides a more detailed or precise statement than its short form > counterpart. The Short form traditions were, however, > published/adopted more recently in time and are about the only form > commonly mentioned. > > Does either form take precedent over the other? > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3456. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: stepping stones From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/27/2006 4:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi all-- ...seems to me that I remember reading somewhere that members chipped in and helped Bill and Lois pay a small stipend every month to keep their stuff in storage while they were "wandering around" before the move to SS. -cm On Monday, May 22, 2006, at 02:44 PM, and25g wrote: > I just came back from the visit to Stepping Stones. I was told > by the person who met me there (his name is Ken B) that Bill and > Louis had their furniture in storage after they lost their > Clinton st. house and it was moved to the Stepping Stones. > > They do claim that the kitchen table is the original table where > Ebby and Bill met. > > It looks like Ken B. spends much time at the Stepping Stones and is > happy to answer any questions visitors have. I have his e-mail and > will invite him to join the group. > > Thank you, > Andrey > MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS > (and25g at yahoo.com) > > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K." > wrote: > > > > > > Just a couple of points.... > > > > When I visited with Lois about 3 months before she > > passed on there were no glasses in the kitchen just as > > there were no glasses in the kitchen when I visited > > there soon after she passed on. > > > > Maybe I'm losing my memory (I do know my short-term is > > severely damaged) but can someone refresh it about > > Bill and Marty starting what was to become the National > > Council in the livingroom > > > > As far as "THE" table.... it has been reported that > > there are a few "THE" tables where Bill and Ebby met. > > > > As far as the desk in the study on the hill being > > "THE" desk where the Big Book was written... I've sat > > at that desk many a time and it wouldn't fit in the > > office in the Newark office and I someone will have to > > fill me in if BandL stored the Clinton St. furniture or > > took it with them on all their moves. > > > > Another thing.... it cannot be classified as "It is > > the most important collection of AA artifacts > > > and history anywhere." > > > > I'm tickled pink that you enjoyed yourself so much at > > Stepping Stones. I wish more members of the Fellowship > > would have your interest in our history. However... we > > must temper historical fact with legend. Hey, I may be > > totally off base... > > > > > > > > > I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in > > > Bedford Falls NY (just above NYC) where Bill and > > > Lois lived from 1941 on. > > > It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly > > > interested in AA history. > > > > > > They have done a marvelous job of keeping it in > > > exactly the same condition it was when Bill and lois > > > lived there (Lois' glasses are where she left them > > > in the kitchen). > > > > > > What a treasure trove of history! > > > > > > You can sit at the kitchen table that Ebby and Bill > > > sat at in Clinton street when Bill pushed a drink > > > over to him and Ebby announced " I got religion". > > > You can stand in the living room where Marty Mann > > > and Bill formed Council that would become the > > > National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence . > > > You can sit at the desk where Bill wrote the Big > > > Book and the 12 and 12. > > > You can see the map filled with stick pins where > > > Bill measured the progress of new groups across the > > > country. > > > You can sit and gaze out the window that he looked > > > out when contemplating how he would respond to the > > > hundreds of questions > > > coming in from all over the country about how to > > > start a meeting etc. > > > > > > The best part - its largely undiscovered by the > > > masses. You can get a quiet visit with a volunteer > > > tour guide and take your time to savor each part. > > > > > > It is the most important collection of AA artifacts > > > and history anywhere. > > > > > > I have been to East Dorset (birthplace, childhood > > > home, gravesite) > > > I have been to Akron. (Dr Bob's house, Mayflower > > > Hotel) > > > Bedford Falls is the Mother Lode. > > > > > > www.steppingstones.org > > > > > > they are having a big picnic on June 3 if you like a > > > crowd, > > > but I recommend you go when its quiet and no one > > > else is there. > > > > > > Rob White > > > Baltimore > > > 410 328 8549 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > + Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web. > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3457. . . . . . . . . . . . Principles of the Program From: Leo . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2006 7:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What are the "Principles of the Program"? I've seen a few lists, each with different content. Some common terms are: honesty, faith, courage, willingness, humility and perseverance. I can't find the information in any of the AA texts, therefore I assume they aren't clearly defined. If there an official source for the "Principles of the Program"? Thanks, Leo __________________________________ From the moderator: There are twelve "steps," twelve "traditions," and twelve "concepts," along with four "absolutes," seven "deadly sins," and so on, but there is no official list of twelve things (or four or seven things) called "principles." It is just a general term referring to any kind of AA policies, rules, guidelines, or program ideas. It's good to begin by going to the Message Board at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and doing a search for the word you're interested in. A partial search which I just made for the word "principles" turns up a large number of relevant messages: Messages 3116, 2908, 2899, 2522, 2521, 2520, 1973, 1972, and 1971. To better understand how the word "principles" is used in AA literature, it can be helpful to go to a concordance to the Big Book, where one could look at all the passages in the Big Book where that word is used. Two useful concordances are: http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/ http://www.royy.com/concord.html I think that anyone who goes through all the different kinds of usages of that word in the Big Book will quickly see that it is just a very general kind of term, and does not refer to some specific list of twelve words, or whatever. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3458. . . . . . . . . . . . Long form of the Traditions and the 12 ‘ 12 From: sobie396@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/28/2006 9:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know when the long form of the Traditions were added to the 12 and 12, and any reason why they were omitted from early editions, like my June 1973 twelfth printing? __________________________________ Greetings I have a hardcover copy of the 12 and 12 That was given to me by a long time member of the fellowship who passed away with 30+ years of sobriety, The Copyright page lists it as a Twelfth Printing, June 1973, I happened to be using this edition at a monthly Traditions meeting last week, I normally use a more recent soft cover edition, the format of the meeting is to read the long form of a Tradition and then read the text and discuss it. This edition of the book does not have the long forms printed in it anywhere. The last page (192) ends with the sentence: "We are sure that humility, expressed by anonymity, is the greatest safeguard that Alcoholics Anonymous can aver have." Does anyone know when the long forms of the Traditions were added to the book and any reason why they were omitted from early editions? Thanks Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3459. . . . . . . . . . . . Principles of the Program From: David G. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/3/2006 5:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Leo, I posted this question, moons ago see # 1802 and was reminded by Arthur that the card I purchased from a vendor at an AA function was a "creative exercises of individual imagination". I am not an AA Historian; I just "try" to spend the gold the real Historians mine. "And Glen reminds us that: There are twelve "steps," twelve "traditions," and twelve "concepts," along with four "absolutes," seven "deadly sins," and so on, but there is no official list of twelve things (or four or seven things) called "principles." It is just a general term referring to any kind of AA policies, rules, guidelines, or program ideas...... Great info. on keeping it simple.....here we go....."BUT", being of magnified mind and perhaps still suffering from "I need more input", I wanted something to aim at. At least if God removed my defect, and nature abhors a vacuum, then the principle would automatically come in. From an early post of AAHL concerning the single word principles... They originated with a Texas Intergroup sometime around 1951, I think -- there's a copy of the original Intergroup sheet/flyer/whatever in the Archives in NYC. They are not GSO literature, and as they date from the time when the Conference had been established, they are at most local AA literature. So far as I know "practice these principles" in Step 12 is intended to refer to the Steps. -- Jared L. If you really want a nice list of "principles," there is a recent book by Dick B. (published in 2000) entitled "By The Power Of God, A guide to Early A.A. Groups and Forming Similar Groups Today"; see pages 190, 191, 192. Finally, there were spiritual principles to be Practiced in daily living. Principles from the Sermon On The Mount, from 1 Corinthians 13, from the Book of James, from the Oxford Group's Four Absolutes, and from a number of other biblical sources as well. The Big Book reality does not specifically list the "Principles" or describe the "works' that are to the follow the attaining of "Faith." But I believe the following are among the principles the Big Book suggests should be practiced: . (1) Relying upon God (Big Book 46, 50, 51-53, 68, 80, 98, 100, 120); (2) Being rigorously honest (pp. 58, 64, 67,9 69, 73, 84, 86); (3) Eliminating selfishness and self-centeredness (pp. 67-68, 84, 86, 145); (4) Eliminating resentment, jealousy, and envy (pp. 64-67, 84, 86, 145); (5) Eliminating fear (pp. 67-68, 84, 86, 145); (6) Practicing patience, tolerance, kindliness, understanding, love, forgiveness, and helpfulness to others (pp. 20, 77, 83, 84, 97, 118, 153). And there are additional Twelfth Step principles embodying ideas of humility, forgiveness, and service (Big Book, pp. 73, 77). Also, stressing overcoming the bondage of self, sharing by confession, making restitution, reconciling, seeking guidance, and so on (Big Book, pp. 63, 73, 76, 77, 85-88). The Rev. Harry Almond said, of the biblical principles of the Oxford Group (which contained many of A.A.'s roots): "A good place to start is with the Ten Commandments. " In modern words, Almond summarized them as follows: (1) You shall have no other gods before me. (2) You shall not make for yourself a graven image ... or ... likeness. You shall not bow down to them or serve them. (3) You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. (4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (5) Honor your father and mother. (6) You shall not kill. (7) You shall not commit adultery. (8) You shall not steal. (9) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (10) You shall not covet. And there were the Oxford Group's own spiritual principles of absolute honesty, purity, unselfishness, and love from the Oxford Group's Four Absolutes, which we have already discussed. As we have also discussed at length, Professor Drummond in his The Greatest Thing in the World-which was widely read and recommended in early A.A.-summarized the "love elements" of I Corinthians 13 as follows: (1) Patience. (2) Kindness. (3) Generosity. (4) Humility. (5) Courtesy. (6) Unslflshness. (7) Good Temper. (8) Guilelessness. (9) Sincerity." These, said Drummond and Dr. Bob, were vital elements in living the principles which Dr. Bob said could be simmered down to "love and service." (Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers page 338.) Many A.A. principles, detailed elsewhere, came from the Book of James and include: (1) Patience. (2) Seeking the wisdom of God. (3) Avoiding temptation. (4) Telling the truth. (5) Avoiding anger. (6) Studying the word of God and "doing" it. (7) Helping the unfortunate. (8) Loving your neighbor. (9) Avoiding adultery and killing. (10) Backing up faith with works. (11) Bridling the tongue. (12) Avoiding envy and strife. (13) Avoiding lying. (14) Avoiding selfish lusts. (15) Avoiding pride. (16) Submitting to God. (17) Purifying hearts. (18) Being humble. (19) Avoiding speaking evil of another. (20) Doing good. (21) Avoiding riches for the sake of riches. (22) Avoiding grudges. (23) Avoiding swearing and false oaths. (24) Relying on prayer. (25) Confessing faults. (26) Converting sinners from the error of their ways. The following A.A. principles, detailed elsewhere, seem to have come from the Sermon on the Mount: (1) Humility. (2) Compassion. (3) Meekness. (4) Spotless conduct. (5) Making peace with enemies. (6) Harmonizing actions with God's will. (7) Overcoming resentments. (8) Making restitution. (9) Avoiding retaliation. (10) Conducting prayers and good works anonymously. (11) Forgiving. (12) Seeking God first. (13) Utilizing self- examination. (14) Doing the will of God. (15) Being rigorously honest. (16) Avoiding evil. (17) Being unselfish. (18) Loving. end When I try and practice the 12 Steps, the 12 Traditions and the 12 Concepts, the best I can at the time, they pretty much capture the principles noted by Dick B. I still like it. Respectfully, Dave G. From: "Leo" Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 23:42:05 -0000 What are the "Principles of the Program"? I've seen a few lists, each with different content. Some common terms are: honesty, faith, courage, willingness, humility and perseverance. I can't find the information in any of the AA texts, therefore I assume they aren't clearly defined. If there an official source for the "Principles of the Program"? Thanks, Leo __________________________________ From the moderator: There are twelve "steps," twelve "traditions," and twelve "concepts," along with four "absolutes," seven "deadly sins," and so on, but there is no official list of twelve things (or four or seven things) called "principles." It is just a general term referring to any kind of AA policies, rules, guidelines, or program ideas. It's good to begin by going to the Message Board at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and doing a search for the word you're interested in. A partial search which I just made for the word "principles" turns up a large number of relevant messages: Messages 3116, 2908, 2899, 2522, 2521, 2520, 1973, 1972, and 1971. To better understand how the word "principles" is used in AA literature, it can be helpful to go to a concordance to the Big Book, where one could look at all the passages in the Big Book where that word is used. Two useful concordances are: http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/ http://www.royy.com/concord.html I think that anyone who goes through all the different kinds of usages of that word in the Big Book will quickly see that it is just a very general kind of term, and does not refer to some specific list of twelve words, or whatever. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3460. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Which takes precedence, Long or Short Traditions? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/1/2006 6:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There has been a number of postings of questions on the Traditions. Below is a rather long posting that attempts to address the questions asked about the Traditions. Much of what follows can be found by doing a search in the AAHistoryLovers archive of past postings. A History of the Traditions Each of AA's three Legacies of Recovery, Unity and Service are grounded upon a foundation of spiritual principles. Each Step, Tradition and Concept is, of itself, a "principle" (i.e. a rule of personal conduct). Bill W published essays (in the Grapevine, 12and12, "AA Comes of Age" and "Twelve Concepts for World Service") defining the context, origin and basis of each of the 36 principles. Bill's original Grapevine essays on the Traditions can be found in the book "The Language of the Heart." These Grapevine Essays later became the basis for publication of the Traditions portion of the 12and12 and the "Unity" portion of the book "AA Comes of Age." This history below provides a timeline of the origin and development of the Traditions. Source References: 12and12 - Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions AACOA - AA Comes of Age DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers LOH - The Language of the Heart PIO - Pass It On SM - AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service Notations show source references and page numbers 1937 The earliest experience recorded that influenced the Traditions is contained in the Tradition 3 essay in the 12and12 relating to membership requirements. It is often erroneously interpreted as having something to do with drugs and is also often erroneously intermingled with an incident that occurred 8 years later in 1945 at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC. (PIO 318). The 1945 incident is discussed later below. In the Tradition 3 essay in the 12and12 it notes that on the AA calendar of "year two" (which would be 1937) the spirit of Tradition 3 emerged. A member asked to be admitted who frankly described himself to the "oldest" member as "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism." Guidance on how to respond to the prospect came from Dr Bob (the oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would the Master do?" The member was admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. (DBGO 240-241 12and12 141-142) The prospect's "addiction" had nothing at all to do with drugs and was later described by Bill W as "sex deviate." Information on this revelation is from a recording of an address by Bill W at an open meeting of the 1968 General Service Conference. The recording is available on-line from various web sites. See also the pamphlet "The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous" (pub. P-53, pg 30). 1939 Principles defined in the Foreword to the First Edition Big Book provided the seeds for many of the Traditions that Bill W later published in the April 1946 Grapevine. These same principles were also incorporated into the "AA Preamble" which was first published in the June 1947 Grapevine. Relevant extracts from the Foreword to the First Edition are: "It is important that we remain anonymous because we are too few, at present to handle the overwhelming number of personal appeals which may result from this publication. Being mostly business or professional folk, we could not well carry on our occupations in such an event. We would like it understood that our alcoholic work is an avocation." "When writing or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our Fellowship to omit his personal name, designating himself instead as "a member of Alcoholics Anonymous." "Very earnestly we ask the press also, to observe this request, for otherwise we shall be greatly handicapped." "We are not an organization in the conventional sense of the word. There are no fees or dues whatsoever. The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. We are not allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted. We shall be interested to hear from those who are getting results from this book, particularly from those who have commenced work with other alcoholics. We should like to be helpful to such cases. Inquiry by scientific, medical, and religious societies will be welcomed." 1942 (and earlier) Correspondence from groups gave early signals of a need to develop guidelines to help with group problems that occurred over and over. Basic ideas for the formulation of the Twelve Traditions emerged from this correspondence and the principles defined in the Foreword to the first Edition of the Big Book. (AACOA 187, 192-193, 198, 204, PIO 305-306, LOH 154). October, Clarence S, founder of AA in Cleveland (whose Big Book story is "The Home Brewmeister") stirred up a controversy in Cleveland after discovering that Dr Bob and Bill W were receiving royalties from Big Book sales. (DBGO 267-269, AACOA 193-194) Bill and Dr Bob re-examined the problem of their financial status and concluded that royalties from the Big Book seemed to be the only answer to the problem. Bill sought counsel from Father Ed Dowling (Bill's spiritual sponsor) who suggested that Bill and Dr Bob could not accept money for 12th Step work, but should accept royalties as compensation for special services. (AACOA 194-195, PIO 322-324). This later formed the basis for Tradition 8. 1945 April, Earl T, founder of AA in Chicago (whose Big Book Story is "He Sold Himself Short") suggested to Bill W that he codify the Traditions and write essays on them in the Grapevine. (AACOA 22, 203, SM S8, PIO 306, LOH 20-24). Earl T played a prominent role in the development of both the long and short form of the Traditions. August, the Grapevine carried Bill W's first Traditions article (titled "Modesty One Plank for Good Public Relations") setting the groundwork for his 5-year campaign for the Traditions. The July Grapevine edition had an article by member CHK of Lansing, MI about the Washingtonians. Bill used this article to begin his essay commentaries. The Alcoholic Foundation wrote to John D Rockefeller, Jr and the 1940 dinner guests that AA no longer needed their financial help. Big Book royalties could look after Dr Bob and Bill W and group contributions could pay the general office expenses. This ended all "outside contributions" to AA. (AACOA 203-204). It formed the basis of Tradition 7. All loans received from Rockefeller and the dinner guests from 1941 to 1945 were repaid in 1945 out of Big Book income. One of the most durable Traditions myths in AA concerns an incident that occurred in 1945. Bill W was called by Barry L (who would later author "Living Sober") from the 41st St clubhouse. Bill persuaded the group to take in a black man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women's clothing and makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." When asked what to do about it, Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered, "yes" Bill replied, "well I think that's all we can ask." The man was reported to have disappeared shortly after. (PIO 317-318) Anecdotal accounts erroneously say that this individual went on to become one of the best 12th Steppers in NY. This story is often erroneously intermingled with that of a 1937 incident ("year two" on the AA calendar) involving an Akron member that is discussed in the Tradition Three essay in the 12and12 and who was the one who plunged into 12th Step work (pgs 141-142). 1946 Grapevine April, the Grapevine carried Bill W's article "Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition." They would later be called the long form of the Twelve Traditions. (AACOA viii, 96, 203, LOH 20, 154) 1947 Grapevine December, the Grapevine carried a notice that an important new 48-page pamphlet titled AA Traditions was sent to each group and that enough copies were available for each member to have one free of charge. 1949 As plans for the first International Convention were under way, Earl T suggested to Bill W that the "Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition" would benefit from revision and shortening. (AACOA 213 says it occurred in 1947) Bill, with Earl's help, set out to develop the short form of the Twelve Traditions. (AACOA 213, PIO 334) November, the short form of the Twelve Traditions was first printed in the AA Grapevine. The entire issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for the forthcoming Cleveland Convention. Two wording changes were subsequently made to the initial version of the short form of the Traditions: "primary spiritual aim" was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6, and "principles above personalities" was changed to "principles before personalities" in Tradition 12. (LOH 96) The date that these changes were adopted is difficult to determine precisely and appears to have occurred with the publication of the book "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" in 1953. 1950 AA's 15th anniversary and 1st International Convention took place at Cleveland, OH from July 28-30, 1950 (AACOA 43, LOH 121, PIO 338). Bill W chronicled the proceedings in a September 1950 Grapevine article titled "We Came of Age" which is preserved in the book "The Language of the Heart." (LOH 117-124) The Traditions meeting of the Convention was held in the Cleveland Music Hall. Bill W was asked to sum up the 12 Traditions for the attendees. Bill did not recite either the short or long form of the Traditions as we know them today or as they were first published. Instead he paraphrased and summarized a variation of the Traditions that is preserved in the book "The Language of the Heart" (LOH 121). Following Bill's summation, he asked if anyone had any objections to the 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous. Hearing none he offered the Traditions for adoption. The attendees unanimously approved their adoption by standing vote. Bill later noted in "AA Comes of Age" (AACOA 213) "It was a fine hour in that month of July 1950. Alcoholics Anonymous had passed it fifteenth milestone; its Second Legacy of Tradition was secure." 1952 In September, Al-Anon Family Groups adopted and adapted the Twelve Traditions of AA. The version of the Traditions they used was the original wording of the short form of the Traditions that appeared in the November 1949. AFG Traditions continue to use the term "primary spiritual aim" as opposed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6, and the term "principles above personalities" as opposed to "principles before personalities" in Tradition 12. 1953 June, the book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions was published. Bill W described the work as "This small volume is strictly a textbook which explains AA's 24 basic principles and their application, in detail and with great care." Betty L and Tom P helped Bill in its writing. Jack Alexander also helped with editing. It was published in two editions: one for $2.25 ($15.50 today) for distribution through AA groups, and a $2.75 ($19 today) edition distributed through Harper and Brothers for sale in commercial bookstores. (AACOA ix, 219, PIO 354-356) 1955 July 1-3, AA's 20th anniversary and 2nd International Convention at St Louis, MO. Theme: Coming of Age. (AACOA viii, SM S2) Bill W claimed attendance of 5,000. It was actually closer to 3,000. On July 3, by resolution, Bill W and its old-timers turned over the stewardship of the AA society to the movement. The Conference became the Guardian of the Traditions and voice of the group conscience of the entire Fellowship. The resolution was unanimously adopted by the Convention by acclamation and was approved beforehand by the General Service Conference subject to approval by the International Convention. (AACOA ix, 47-48, 223-228) Note: this was one of two instances when the Conference did not convene in NYC. The Conference first convened in St Louis in late June and concluded on July 3. The 2nd edition Big Book was introduced at the international convention. 30 new personal stories were introduced. A new appendix was added to the Big Book containing the short and long form of the 12 Traditions. During the 1950's there was confusion in this appendix because it listed the short form of the Traditions that appeared in the November 1949 Grapevine and not the version that was contained in the 12and12 in 1953. Eventually, the wording of Tradition 6 was corrected in the 3rd printing of the 2nd edition Big Book and the wording of Tradition 12 was corrected in the 6th printing of the 2nd edition Big Book in 1963. 1957 Conference Advisory Action Bill W, suggested, and the 1957 Conference approved, that the Conference Charter be amended to read: "But no change in article 12 of the Charter or in AA tradition or in the Twelve Steps of AA may be made with less than the written consent of three-quarters of the AA groups (SM S87). 1958 Conference Advisory Action The 1958 Conference approved removing the word "honest" from the term "honest desire to stop drinking" in the "AA Preamble." It also changed the term "AA has no dues or fees" to "There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions." The wording of the Conference advisory action can give the misleading impression that the Traditions were changed. The advisory action reads: "The General Service Conference recognize the original use of the word ‘honest' before ‘desire to stop drinking' and its deletion from the Traditions as part of the evolution of the AA movement. Any change to be left to the discretion of AA Publishing, Inc." The advisory action did not change the Traditions. AA legend will sometimes erroneously state that the word "honest" was removed from Tradition 3. Tradition 3, in either its long or short form, never contained the word "honest." The term "honest desire to stop drinking" comes from the Foreword to the 1st edition Big Book which still contains the term. 1976 Conference Advisory Action "It is resolved by the 1976 General Service Conference that those instruments requiring consent of three-quarters of the responding groups for change or amendment would include the Twelve Steps of AA should any such change or amendment ever be proposed." "In case a change is needed in the Twelve Traditions, the Twelve Steps, or the Six Warranties of Article 12, wherever the words "registered AA groups of the world", "registered groups" or "directory-listed groups" appear in the AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service, a bracketed sentence be inserted to state, "This would include all AA groups known to the General Service Offices around the world." The 1976 Conference Advisory Actions (and their predecessors) effectively make any notion of a change to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma). Interpretation of the Traditions The lead paragraph to the Ninth Tradition in the pamphlet "The Twelve Traditions Illustrated" reads "The words ‘Let's keep it simple' were the last Bill W heard from his fellow founder of AA, shortly before Dr Bob's death in 1950. Aware that ‘it' meant our recovery program, Bill later wrote ‘We need to distinguish sharply between spiritual simplicity and functional simplicity ... When we get into questions of actions by groups, by areas and by AA as a whole, we find that we must to some extent organize to carry the message - or else face chaos. And chaos is not simplicity." Perhaps the main challenge and barrier in interpreting and applying the Traditions in a spiritual manner, is a propensity of many members to inform themselves with little more than what is printed on the short form window-shade displays of the principles. The spiritual application of the principles is a function of how well members are informed either on their own initiative or by others. Interpretations can vary widely depending on whether a member is acting as an "AA lawyer" or an "AA unifier." All too often a member will extract a word or two from the short form of the Traditions or Concepts and interpret the principle(s) as their semantic imagination leads them rather than to be constructively informed by AA literature. There is much helpful literature e.g. the books "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" "AA Comes of Age" "Twelve Concepts for World Service" by Bill W, or the pamphlets "The Twelve Traditions Illustrated" and/or "Twelve Concepts Illustrated" and other pamphlets and service pieces. The long form of the Traditions and Concepts is far more informative, in context and substance, than their short form counterparts. Also, there is a very under-appreciated pamphlet titled "The AA Group" that is a gold mine of information for groups on the application of the Traditions and Concepts. Much can be gained, and gleaned, from the Steps, Traditions and Concepts, both in understanding and results, when each of them is viewed as a whole instructive sentence. Each whole instructive sentence can then be viewed as a "principle" (i.e. a rule of personal conduct) that we try to practice in all our affairs as a means of developing a spiritual condition that offers a daily reprieve from alcohol. The resultant God-given gift is something called "sobriety" (freedom from alcohol). The gift of the Traditions is "unity" (to keep the Fellowship from destroying itself). Perhaps the worst way of using the Traditions is in a legalistic manner especially when someone is accused of "violating" this or that. The Traditions were not designed to produce legalistic conformity. They were designed to produce spiritual unity. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of t Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 11:52 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Which takes precedence, Long or Short Traditions? yankee1gb wrote: > The long form of the traditions were published/adopted first and each > provides a more detailed or precise statement than its short form > counterpart. The Short form traditions were, however, > published/adopted more recently in time and are about the only form > commonly mentioned. > > Does either form take precedent over the other? > > Short answer: whichever best applies to a particular situation... what ever yields the best results. While keeping in mind as many of the Traditions [which ever form] and Steps. Long answer: First we need to separate published vs. adopted. The Long Form of the Traditions were first published, in the Grapevine, April 1946, as "Twelve Suggested Points of AA Tradition", a sort of first draft form some say. Then again in the Grapevine, October 1947, "Traditions Stressed in Memphis Talk" in a more finished form recognizable to our membership today. In Pass It On [PIO] pg 324, it states that Bill spent 1947-1950 out in the groups trying, rather unsuccessfully, to "sell" these Long Form Traditions. Sometime in late 1949 it was suggested to Bill by Earl T of Chicago that they needed to be edited down, so Bill [with the help of a few trusted members] did just that. [PIO pg 334] Finally, at the Cleveland Convention, July 29, 1950, the membership of AA, through our elected delegates, officially accepted the Traditions [in the Short Form]. [PIO pg 338] So you see, the Long Form was published first ... but the Short Form was accepted first. And as far as I know, the membership has never specifically voted to accept the Long Form of the Traditions. We HAVE voted and accepted them, as package deals in accepting the revisions of old publication, and newer publications that have come out which included them. But, curiously, never 'just on their own merit'. Never seen any indication of GSO or the Conference EVER trying to place one form in precedence over the other. I have seen some business meetings where individual members, trying to argue against a different point of view, have strongly stated that the version [long or short] they insisted supported their view was superior to the version the opposition used. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Protect your PC from spy ware with award winning anti spy technology. It's free. http://us.click.yahoo.com/97bhrC/LGxNAA/yQLSAA/219olB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3461. . . . . . . . . . . . Principles of the AA program From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2006 2:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What do we mean by "the principles of the program"? For the sake of the people who have been members of the group for a while, we try not to repeat material that has already been talked about in great detail in previous messages. In this case, if you go to the Message Board at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and look at Messages 3116, 2908, 2899, 2522, 2521, 2520, 1973, 1972, and 1971, you will see a long and detailed discussion of all the issues. It is also important to look at a concordance to the Big Book when asking about the significance of a word, to see how that word is used in the Big Book. Two useful concordances are: http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/ http://www.royy.com/concord.html If you look there, you will see that the words principle and principles are used in the first 164 pages of the Big Book on pages 14, 19, 42, 47, 60, 64, 79, 83, 87, 93, 94, 97, 98, 112, 115, 116, 121, 124, 125, 128, 130, 139, 156. If somebody can come up with some brand spanking new information (some historical fact that can be documented) that is extremely important, but has never been looked at or discussed before, then this would be good to post. For the sake of fairness, however, let me include some of the messages that have been sent in on this topic during the last four days, but again, please look at the previous messages dealing with this subject to get a full and complete discussion. We've got some really good material stored on the Message Board of the AAHistoryLovers at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages , going all the way back to March 2002. And we have additional messages stored at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/messages/ which go back to March 2000. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator South Bend, Indiana ______________________________ From: denezmcd@aol.com Date: Wed May 31, 2006 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Principles of the Program The principles are the steps as explained on page 60 1st para after the 12th step. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. skip line The principles we have set down are guides to progress. Dennis McD ______________________________ From: CBBB164@AOL.COM Date: Wed May 31, 2006 1:11 pm Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Principles of the Program "The Principles we have set down" are the life giving Twelve Steps, the life saving Twelve Traditions and the life propagating Twelve Concepts. The "lists" are the qualities with which we are blessed if we follow the Path. Cliff Bishop cbbb164@aol.com (214) 350_1190 ______________________________ From: "Gerard T McMahon" skyfive@bellsouth.net Date: Wed May 31, 2006 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Principles of the Program I was told long ago that the principles of the program were "love and tolerance" by an old timer. Jerry McMahon in beautiful Pensacola on the Gulf ______________________________ From: "Norman Gin" ncgin@swbell.net Date: Wed May 31, 2006 5:59 pm Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Principles of the Program I don't have my "12 Steps and 12 Traditions" in front of me right now, but aren't the "Principles" set forth in its Introduction? "AA's 12 Steps are a set of principles, spiritual in their nature, which if practiced as a way of life, can expel the compulsion to drink, and allow the sufferer to life happily and usefully whole" I'm going by memory, so forgive me if I've seriously botched it :>) Norm G Dallas, TX ______________________________ From: "Thomas" thomas@sober.org Date: Wed May 31, 2006 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Principles of the Program The Honesty, Hope, Faith.....set of step principles has been hanging around for decades. Some people think it is "official", but to our knowledge it has never been published by AA or founders. The Big Book Bunch did an in-depth study of principles of the steps. See http://www.sober.org/Principl.html Based upon review of the Big Book, the 12and12 and prolonged discussion, their view of the principle of each step is: 1.. Surrender 2.. Hope 3.. Commitment 4.. Honesty 5.. Truth 6.. Willingness 7.. Humility 8.. Reflection 9.. Amendment 10.. Vigilance 11.. Attunement 12.. Service Having participated in their study, I must admit that I think the BBB list makes better sense. However, as a gesture of true humility they suggest each individual try to come up with their own understanding of what the principle of each step is. This would best be done with others. It is even OK to argue (gently, of course). Such discussion will be very helpful to understanding how the steps work. We have never documented an evaluation of the principles of the principles. It might go like 1. Unity, 2. Authority ... Love, Thomas ______________________________ From: "Danny S" danny@dannyschwarzhoff.net Date: Thu Jun 1, 2006 3:04 pm Subject: Re: Principles of the Program Good luck in researching that out. You might find it helpful in knowing that with few exceptions the term "Principles" in the Big Book "Alcoholics Anonymous" is overwhelmingly and fully termed as "spiritual principles". The most obvious exception being Step Twelve which simply states "these principles". "Principle(s)" is mentioned a total of 29 times -- rarely without the word "spiritual" prefixed. Hope that helps. Peace, Danny Schwarzhoff Happily Recovered and Googleable Alcoholic ______________________________ From: "R. Peter Nixon, MBA" rpeternixon@yahoo.ca Date: Sun Jun 4, 2006 3:28 pm Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Principles of the Program Bill Wilson gave three talks to medical societies that are transcribed in an AA pamphlet. As I recall, he stated that the principles of the program were: 1. Admission of alcoholism. 2. Self-examination. 3. Admission of wrongs and amends. 4. Conscious contact with a Higher Power. 5. Help others. Dr. Bob put it even more succinctly: "Trust God, clean house and help others." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3462. . . . . . . . . . . . Letters describing Seiberling Gate Lodge Meeting? From: olddand562 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2006 3:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello friends: I had the priviledge of visiting Heirietta Seiberling's home in the Gate Lodge at the Stan Hyet estate in Akron, where, I believe, God Himself first delivered the elements of A/A to Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob Smith, and Henrietta Seiberling, at their meeting together on a Mothers Day Sunday. Are there any letters or otherwise describing this meeting by any of the participants (such as a letter from Bill Wilson to his wife who was in New York at the time, etc.)? I've tried the Akron archives, with no result, and Stepping Stones, with no response. Thank you for your help, Dan Dougherty IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3463. . . . . . . . . . . . Kathleen Folkerth article on the Gate Lodge From: chris fuccione . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/2/2006 1:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Link to the Kathleen Folkerth article on the Gate Lodge where Bill W. and Dr. Bob met for the first time, with picture of Dr. Bob and Anne Smith's grave, home and Gate Hall http://www.akron.com/20060601/wsl72.asp By Kathleen Folkerth WEST AKRON -- A conversation that has changed thousands of lives took place in a tiny room of a cottage on a grand Akron estate. It was the historic meeting of two men, Akron surgeon Dr. Bob Smith and New York stockbroker Bill Wilson, both troubled by their addiction to alcohol. The meeting, which took place in the Gate Lodge at Stan Hywet Hall and Gardens on May 12, 1935, set the stage for what would eventually be known as Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). That historic meeting will be marked at Stan Hywet the weekend of June 8-11, to coincide with activities surrounding AA's annual Founders' Day. The Akron Area Intergroup Council of AA will honor the 71st anniversary of AA with activities June 9-11. The Gate Lodge, which features an exhibit about "Dr. Bob" and "Bill W.," will have extended hours throughout the weekend. In an adjacent tent on the Stan Hywet property, several performances of a scene from a play about the two AA founders will be performed. The Gate Lodge opened to the public in 2004. The house was occupied until 1999 by Irene Seiberling Harrison, who died then at the age of 108. After her passing, it was decided that the cottage would be restored and its place in history would be noted. During the past two Founders' Day weekends, more than 7,500 people have walked through the doors of the modest cottage, according to Donna Spiegler, communications manager of Stan Hywet. The Gate Lodge is also open when the estate is open to the public and included in the price of manor tours. Stan Hywet volunteer Jim Urban, of West Akron, is often stationed at the Gate Lodge to answer questions. "AA members just want to see the place," he said. "They read every single word." Urban said he also has served as a soundboard for some. "Sometimes an AA member will unload on you," Urban said. "That's inspiring." The Gate Lodge is the building to the right of the entrance gate at Stan Hywet. It was built as a residence for the estate's superintendent, who lived there until his death in 1923. At that point, Fred Seiberling (the eldest son of Stan Hywet owner F.A. Seiberling) moved into the cottage with his wife, Henrietta, and their three children, John, Dorothy and Mary. The couple separated in 1935, and Fred moved into the Manor House while Henrietta and the children stayed at the Gate Lodge. It was Henrietta Seiberling who is credited with bringing together Dr. Bob and Bill W. According to information in the Gate Lodge, Henrietta was active in the Oxford Group, a spiritual movement popular at the time, which stressed that "moral strength was the foundation to social justice and personal change would bring about social change." Through her activities with the group, Henrietta met Dr. Bob and his wife, Anne, and knew about the doctor's struggles with alcohol. Meanwhile, Bill W. was in Akron working unsuccessfully on a business deal. He had been sober for a few months, but the failure of the deal led him to seek help on the night of May 11, 1935. He felt if he could talk to another person struggling with alcohol addiction, he would be able to resist the temptation to visit the bar at the Mayflower Hotel in downtown Akron, where he was staying. From the hotel's church directory, he randomly selected the Rev. William Tunks, who gave Bill W. a list of 10 names of people who might know an alcoholic who would talk with him. None of the numbers led to any success until he dialed Henrietta Seiberling. Henrietta called the Smiths, but Bob was sleeping off his latest binge. Anne Smith asked if they could meet the next day, Mother's Day. Bill W. hung on and came to the Gate Lodge that day for dinner. Dr. Bob reluctantly arrived with Anne and their son, and after dinner, Dr. Bob and Bill W. retired to the small library of the Gate Lodge for what was intended to be a 15-minute conversation. They stayed there for five hours. Today, the library is appointed with a small table and two chairs. Three recordings -- of Henrietta Seiberling, Dr. Bob and Bill W. -- can be played that talk about the events that transpired to help set the stage for AA, which became an international, spiritually oriented community that helps its members stay sober and help other alcoholics do the same. The historic meeting has spawned books, movies and even a play, "Bill W. and Dr. Bob." A 20-minute scene from the play will be performed June 9 at 2 p.m., 3 p.m. and 4 p.m. and June 10 at 1 p.m., 2 p.m., 3 p.m., 4 p.m. and 5 p.m. The play is a biographical dramatization about the meeting written by Janet Surrey and Stephen Bergman and directed by Rick Lombardo. It features Patrick Husted as Dr. Bob and Robert Krakovski as Bill W. The New Repertory Theatre in Watertown, Mass., hosted the play in March, where it broke box office records. According to the theater's Web site, the production is slated to be performed off-Broadway this fall. Husted may be a familiar face, as he has appeared on "Law and Order" and "L.A. Law" as well as in many feature films. A brief audience discussion will follow each 20-minute performance of the scene. Extended hours for Founders' Day at the Gate Lodge are 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. June 8 and 9, 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. June 10 and 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. June 11. In honor of Founders' Day, there will be no admission fee for the Gate Lodge June 8-11, although regular prices will apply to other tours at the site. Regular hours of the Gate Lodge are noon to 4:30 p.m. daily. For more information, call (330) 836-5533 or go to www.stanhywet.org. Dr. Bob's House Another West Akron site important to AA members is Dr. Bob's house, located at 855 Ardmore Ave. The house was turned into a museum honoring the AA co-founder in 1985. The corner home features much of the home's original furnishings placed as they were when Dr. Bob and his wife opened the doors to many seeking help. A pot of coffee is on in the kitchen, and those who come in are invited to sit down at the table in the kitchen, just as many visitors to the home did years ago. According to volunteer Ray, who works at the home once a week, the house is visited by about 6,000 people during Founders' Day weekend. On a regular day, he said about 15 people might come through the doors. "We get people from all over the world," Ray said. Ardmore Avenue runs between South Portage Path and West Exchange Street. The home will have extended hours during Founders' Day events but is otherwise open every day but Christmas from noon to 3 p.m. There is no admission fee, but donations are welcomed. Dr. Bob's grave Mount Peace Cemetery, Akron's second-oldest cemetery, is the site of Dr. Bob's grave. The cemetery is located at 183 Aqueduct St., a few blocks north of West Market Street. According to Susan Blaydes, of Mount Peace, the cemetery attracts people throughout the year who want to pay their respects to the Akron doctor. On June 11 at 7:30 p.m., Founders' Day activities will include a motorcycle procession to the grave and a memorial service. Signs from the main entrance to the cemetery direct visitors to the grave. Many AA visitors leave their Sobriety Coins, which are given to AA members to mark the anniversary of the day they stopped drinking, on the gravestone in tribute to Dr. Bob. The cemetery also features a bronze plaque with the Serenity Prayer on it not far from the grave. Adjacent to that is a columbarium, which holds cremains. The columbarium is dedicated to AA and Dr. Bob and allows those wanting to have their final resting place near Dr. Bob to have their wishes granted. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3465. . . . . . . . . . . . 12x12 Changes (final draft) From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2006 4:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This one notes the misprint in the Ninth Step and tidies up a bit ========================================================================== Several weeks ago I asked on-line if a list was available of changes that have been made over the years to the 12x12. It was subsequently suggested that it might be a good project for me. Rather than go thru the book word by word, the first and last sentences of each paragraph were compared. Any other differences between the original and a current printing were noted. A first Alcoholics Anonymous printing was compared with a 63d printing, which I happened to have available. The listings should in no way be considered comprehensive. Some generalizations can be made. Throughout the book members are referred to as an AA or AA's. The current printing refers to members as A.A. or A.A.'s. The change was made twenty times. When referring to one of the Twelve Steps without the number, the word step is not capitalized in the original but is in the current. The change was made nine times. Similarly, higher when used to modify power is not capitalized in the original but is in the current. The page and paragraph numbers are those in the current printing. Paragraph 0 would be the one continuing from the previous page. Compiled and submitted by Tommy H. Cover: Original "How members of Alcoholics Anonymous recover and how the society functions. Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc." Current: "A co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous tells how members recover and how the society functions. Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc." Front inside flap of cover has price $2.75; no price is listed on current flap Title Page: Original has only "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc." at bottom, Current has "Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., Box 459, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10163" Table of Contents: Step Two, line 4: higher not capitalized in original; line 8: two in "Step Two" is not capitalized in original. Step Three, line 4: Higher not capitalized in original; Step Five, last word: Steps is not capitalized in original. Step Eight, line 1: Steps is not capitalized in original Step Nine, line 1: wherever in current; whenever in original. [Note: my 2nd and 3rd printings have whenever; my 7th wherever. What printing was the change made in?] Step Eleven, the step: as we understood Him not underlined in original. Step Twelve, line 10: Steps is not capitalized in original Tradition One, line 2: A.A.'s in current, AA's in original. Tradition Two, line 2: Himself is not capitalized in the original. Tradition Five, line 2: Fellowship is not capitalized in original; line 3: A.A. in current, AA in original. Tradition Seven, line 1: Tradition is not capitalized in original; last line: headquarters in current, Foundation in original. Tradition Eight, line 4: A.A.'s in current, AA's in original Tradition Nine, tradition: A.A., as such in current; A.A. as such in original; line 2: "Conference, the board of trustees, and group" in current, "Conference, the Foundation Board, and group" in original; balance of paragraph has 3 A.A. in current and AA in original. Tradition Eleven, line 3: cooperate in current, co-operate in original; last word: Fellowship not capitalized in original. After Tradition Twelve, "The Twelve Traditions the Long Form 189" in current and not in original. p. 15: No* or footnote in original p. 26, para. 2 is a new para, same words p. 34: Last three words of Step 3 underlined in new printing p. 35, para 0: Last two words in 1st "understand Him"; last two words current "understood Him" and italicized p. 38, para. 1; higher in last sentence not capitalized in original p. 63, para. 1: "This is the Step that separates the men from the boys." Original: "This is the step that separates the men from the boys. . . ." Step capitalized now and four periods at end of sentence rather than one. p. 84, para. 0: "Alcoholics Anonymous," in current; Alcoholics Anonymous, italicized in original. p. 88, para. 1: Steps capitalized in first sentence current and not in original. p. 89, para. 1 and 2: A.A.'s in current, AA's in original. p. 90, para. 1: First sentence has quotes around spot-check in original but not in current. p. 90, para. 4: First sentence - ditto with spot-check. p. 92, para. 0: Next to last sentence, big shot has quotes in original, none in current. p. 92, para.1: current "big-shot-ism"; original "big-shotism" p. 94, para. 0: First sentence A.A.'s in current; AA's in original p. 94, para. 3, line 7: current "taught a lesson,"; original "taught" a lesson,. p. 96, words of Step 11: current has as we understood Him underlined; original doesn't. p. 96, para. 2, first sentence: current has A.A.'s; original has AA's. p. 96, para. 3, first sentence: current has higher power; original has "higher Power,". p. 101, para. 4, line 2: flier has quotes in original, none in current. p. 103, para. 2: Has A.A. twice where original has AA. p. 104, para. 1, line 4: malady," in current; malady" . . . in original. Ditto emotional pain same para. p. 105, para. 0, line 1: A.A. vs AA. P. 106, para. 2, line 2: Step in current; step in original; A.A. vs AA in following sentence. p. 107, para. 2, line 5: Higher Power in current; higher Power in original. p. 108, para. 0, line 28: Higher Power vs higher Power; same sentence Higher Power vs higher power p. 111, para 1, line 4: Twelve Steps vs twelve steps p. 112, para.3, first line: A.A.'s vs AA's p. 114, para. 1, line 3: A.A's vs AA's. p. 114, para. 2, line 1: A.A.'s vs AA's. p. 116, para. 0, line 3: give-and-take basis has quotes in original. p. 117, para. 2, line 9: A.A.'s vs AA's p. 118, para. 0, last sentence: Twelve Steps capitalized in current; no * or foot-note in original p. 119, para. 2, line 2: A.A.'s vs AA's; ditto lines 8 and 14. p. 120, para. 1, line 8: loaners has quotes in original. p. 124, para. 1, first line: A.A.'s vs AA's. p. 131, para. 0, last line: Society capitalized in current. p. 132, para. 1, line 6: A.A. vs AA p. 132, para. 3, line 1: A.A. vs AA p. 140, para. 0, line 1: No * or footnote p. 143, last line, last word: "Alcoholics Anonymous: in current is Alcoholics Anonymous italicized in original. p.. 148, para1, line 2: no * or footnote in original p. 152, para. 0, line 3: D.T.'s in current, d.t.'s in original p. 152, para. 2-6 are not separate paragraphs in original but extensions of para. 1. p. 153, para. 2-3 incorporated in para. 1 p. 168, para. 1, line 2: no * or foot note in original p. 169, para. 1, line 10: no * or foot note in original p. 173, para. 1, line 3: no 8 or foot note in original p. 182, para. 3, line 1: no * or foot note in original p. 184, para. 3, line 2: "Alcoholics Anonymous." in current is Alcoholics Anonymous, italicized in original p. 189-1192: The long forms of the Traditions are not in the original. Back cover of current has ISBN 0-916856-01-1. There were no ISBN numbers in the '50s. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3466. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant June Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/4/2006 2:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII June 1: 1949 - Anne Smith, Dr. Bob's wife, died. June 4: 2002- Caroline Knapp, author of "Drinking: A Love Story" died sober of lung cancer. June 5: 1940 - Ebby Thatcher took a job at the NY Worlds Fair. June 6: 1940 - The first AA Group in Richmond, VA, was formed. 1979 - AA gave the two-millionth copy of the Big Book to Joseph Califano, then Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare. It was presented by Lois Wilson, Bill's wife, in New York. June 7: 1939 - Bill and Lois Wilson had an argument, the first of two times Bill almost slipped. 1941 - The first AA Group in St. Paul, Minnesota, was formed. June 8: 1941 - Three AA's started a group in Kalamazoo, Michigan. June 10: 1935 - The date that is celebrated as Dr. Bob's last drink and the official founding date of AA. There is some evidence that the founders, in trying to reconstruct the history, got the date wrong and it was actually June 17. June 11: 1945 - Twenty-five hundred attend AA's 10th Anniversary in Cleveland, Ohio. 1969 - Dr. Bob's granddaughter, Bonna, daughter of Sue Smith and Ernie Galbraith (The Seven Month Slip in the First Edition) killed herself after first killing her six-year-old child. 1971 - Ernie Galbraith died. June 13: 1945 - Morgan R. gave a radio appearance for AA with large audience. He was kept under surveillance to make sure he didn't drink. June 15: 1940 - First AA Group in Baltimore, MD, was formed. June 16: 1938 - Jim Burwell, "The Vicious Cycle" in Big Book, had his last drink. June 17: 1942 - New York AA groups sponsored the first annual NY area meeting. Four hundred and twenty-four heard Dr. Silkworth and AA speakers. June 18: 1940 - One hundred attended the first meeting in the first AA clubhouse at 334-1/2 West 24th St., New York City. June 19: 1942 - Columnist Earl Wilson reported that NYC Police Chief Valentine sent six policemen to AA and they sobered up. "There are fewer suicides in my files," he commented. June 21: 1944 - The first Issue of the AA Grapevine was published. June 24: 1938 - Two Rockefeller associates told the press about the Big Book "Not to bear any author's name but to be by 'Alcoholics Anonymous.'" June 25: 1939 - The New York Times reviewer wrote that the Big Book is "more soundly based psychologically than any other treatment I have ever come upon." June 26: 1935 - Bill Dotson. (AA #3) entered Akron's City Hospital for his last detox and his first day of sobriety. June 28: 1935 - Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson visited Bill Dotson at Akron's City Hospital. June 30: 1941 - Ruth Hock showed Bill Wilson the Serenity Prayer and it was adopted readily by AA. 2000 - More than 47,000 from 87 countries attended the opening meeting of the 65th AA Anniversary in Minneapolis, MN. Other significant events in June for which we have no specific date: 1948 - A subscription to the AA Grapevine was donated to the Beloit, Wisconsin, Public Library by a local AA member. 1981 - AA in Switzerland held its 25th Anniversary Convention with Lois Wilson and Nell Wing in attendance. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3467. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Long form of the Traditions and the 12 ‘ 12 From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 5/31/2006 10:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Tommy H. and Jim S. At 12:11 5/28/2006 , sobie396@aol.com wrote: >Does anyone know when the long form of the Traditions >were added to the 12 and 12, and any reason why they were >omitted from early editions, like my June 1973 twelfth >printing? __________________________________ I have a 15th printing and it does _NOT_ have the long form Traditions. Tommy H __________________________________ From: "Jim S." Date: Thu Jun 1, 2006 8:12 am My copy of the 12 and 12, printed in 1967, does not include the "long form." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3468. . . . . . . . . . . . Smitty''s Children - Dr Bob Family Tree From: dogmeat_44024 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/3/2006 6:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Group. I've been working on a family tree of Dr Bob. I thought this would be helpful to refer to, and know who's who when reading about and discussing AA history. In Smitty's obituary, it states that he was preceded in death by a son named SCOTT. However, I have a recording of a talk that Smitty gave in Waterbury, CT in March of 1999 in which he clearly descibes the suicide of his oldest son, TODD. Does anybody know which is correct? Thanks. Whanny IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3469. . . . . . . . . . . . Sister Ignatia and William Tolliver From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2006 4:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sister Ignatia's Message Inspires Akron Woman Treasures Book that Belonged to Late Father; A.A. Figure Signed it in 1947 By Jim Carney Beacon Journal staff writer [Akron Beacon Journal, posted on their website on Monday, June 5, 2006, complete text and photo at http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/living/religion/14743217.htm ] Dee Sims Butler carefully opens the cover of the tiny book and points to a handwritten inscription. It's dated March 9, 1947. The book is The Following of Christ in Four Books by Thomas A. Kempis. ``To Mr. Tolliver. May God bless you and yours always. May He keep you ever close to His Sacred Heart.'' On the opposite page are these words: ``Please say a little prayer for me.'' The book was signed by Sister Ignatia and given to Butler's father, William Tolliver, an early African-American member of Alcoholics Anonymous. Sister Ignatia was a key figure in the history of A.A., founded in Akron in 1935 by Akron physician Robert Smith and New York stockbroker Bill Wilson. Sister Ignatia worked with Smith in 1939 to set up the world's first alcoholic ward at Akron's St. Thomas Hospital. And Tolliver worked with Sister Ignatia to integrate Ignatia Hall, the alcohol treatment ward at the hospital, said Butler, 78, of Akron, and her sister, Lucimarian Roberts, 82, of Biloxi, Miss. This weekend, 10,000 to 14,000 A.A. members will converge on Akron for Founders Day to commemorate the organization's beginnings. A.A. has more than 2 million members who gather periodically at more than 105,000 meetings. Tolliver was born in West Virginia in 1897. He was an alcoholic when he moved to Akron around 1920, Butler said, and drank every day when she was growing up. In West Virginia, she said, ``he drove a rum wagon from county to county, and to keep warm, they would drink rum.'' In Akron, he ran the T and S Pure Oil Service Station on South Arlington Street. Following his own experience with A.A., Tolliver took an alcoholic friend to St. Thomas. With the help of Sister Ignatia, Tolliver's friend was admitted to the alcohol ward. Sister Ignatia was born Bridget Della Mary Gavin in Ireland in 1889 and moved to Cleveland with her family in 1896, according to Sister Ignatia: Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous by Fairlawn resident Mary C. Darrah. A Sisters of Charity of St. Augustine nun, Sister Ignatia arrived at St. Thomas Hospital in 1928. She left St. Thomas in 1952 for Cleveland, where she founded Rosary Hall, an alcohol treatment facility at St. Vincent Charity Hospital. She died in 1966. A new Sister Ignatia Heritage Center will open inside the Chapel at St. Thomas Hospital over Founders Day weekend. Earlier this year, a section of East 22nd Street in Cleveland was given a secondary name of Sister Ignatia Way on the 40th anniversary of her death. Tolliver died in Akron in 1978 at the age of 80. Both Dani McCann, a public relations planner for Summa Health System, and Gail L., Akron A.A. archivist, said they really can't assess what role Tolliver had in integrating Ignatia Hall because so much of A.A.'s history is verbal. Lonnie B., a 79-year-old Akronite with nearly 50 years of sobriety, who was helped in A.A. by Tolliver, said it made sense to him that Tolliver would have been involved in such an effort with Sister Ignatia. Roberts, a retired social worker, teacher and counselor, said that when her father stopped drinking and got involved in A.A., ``his whole outlook on life was so different.... It was a remarkable thing.'' Butler, a retired nursing clerical supervisor and licensed practical nurse from Akron Children's Hospital, said her father spent countless hours talking to those in treatment at St. Thomas. Tolliver always kept the little book given to him by Sister Ignatia near him, in his briefcase. Now that book and the woman who gave it to him continue to inspire Butler. ``There is no doubt that Sister Ignatia gave the most support to A.A. here in Akron,'' she said. ``She was a most beautiful person. When she smiled, the whole place just lit up.'' ___________________________________ From the moderator: The book of meditations by the late medieval author Thomas a Kempis (c. 1380-1471), the "Imitatio Christi," is better known today under the title "The Imitation of Christ." It first appeared in 1418, and has become one of the most often printed books on spirituality ever written. It is used and admired by both Catholics and Protestants. The other little book which Sister Ignatia sometimes gave to people who passed through her treatment program was a book of excerpts from the "Spiritual Exercises" of St. Ignatius Loyola (1491 or 1495-1556), the founder of the Jesuits. The full text of the "Spiritual Exercises" is easily available, but if anyone in the group has a copy of that particular book of excerpts from St. Ignatius which Sister Ignatia passed out (which has long been out of print), I would be deeply grateful for a photocopy of it. It would be important to know what portions of the "Spiritual Exercises" were excerpted, in order to get a better idea of the sources of early AA spirituality. In our emphasis on the Oxford Group, the Upper Room, New Thought books like Emmet Fox's "Sermon on the Mount" and James Allen's "As a Man Thinketh," along with (in the case of early Boston and Florida AA) the Emmanuel Movement and Jacoby Club literature, we tend to forget the Catholics in early AA, and their important contributions to early AA spirituality. From almost the very beginning, AA had both Protestant and Catholic members, along with an occasional Jewish member (like the famous Irving Meyerson in Cleveland, who helped start so many AA groups in other places, like Indianapolis). And they treasured the fact that a Buddhist AA group was formed at a very early period. The Catholic contributions are the ones which most need researching at this point, and some of the most important linkages here passed through Sister Ignatia and her spirituality. Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3470. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Long form of the Traditions and the 12 ‘ 12 From: Corky Forbes . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/6/2006 8:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a 2nd addition 1955 which has the long form of the 12 traditions. Corky Forbes corky4@cox.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Hickcox To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Long form of the Traditions and the 12 and 12 From Tommy H. and Jim S. At 12:11 5/28/2006 , sobie396@aol.com wrote: >Does anyone know when the long form of the Traditions >were added to the 12 and 12, and any reason why they were >omitted from early editions, like my June 1973 twelfth >printing? __________________________________ I have a 15th printing and it does _NOT_ have the long form Traditions. Tommy H __________________________________ From: "Jim S." Date: Thu Jun 1, 2006 8:12 am My copy of the 12 and 12, printed in 1967, does not include the "long form." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3471. . . . . . . . . . . . Dave B., "Gratitude in Action" From: Henry . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2006 7:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would be grateful if anyone can give me any information on Dave B , the writter of "Gratitude in Action" in the fourth edition of the Big Book. Henry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3472. . . . . . . . . . . . My name is X From: jamesoddname . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2006 8:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm new to this group -- my name is Jim and I'm a grateful recovering alcoholic. As a historian by training, I've naturally gotten interested in AA history since coming into the program last year. A question that intrigues me, that perhaps someone here could answer: When, where, and by whom did the practice begin of introducing ourselves at meetings with the formula "My name is X and I'm an alcoholic"? Probably the answer is somewhere in the groups archives but I don't know how to ferret it out. Thank you for your patience. Jim C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3473. . . . . . . . . . . . 138 Lexington Street in Brooklyn? From: ricktompkins@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/7/2006 5:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi group, A good friend of mine recently visited NYC and took a 'cook's tour' of historically important AA sites. In Brooklyn and 192 Clinton Street (the Burnham home where Bill and Lois lived before and after Bill got sober), there is an address at 138 Lexington Street---around a few corners but relatively in the same neighborhood. My friend doesn't recall the details of the Lexington Street address. Can anyone shed some light through this window on our past? Rick, Illinois [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3474. . . . . . . . . . . . Richard R. Peabody From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2006 5:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone give us any information on Richard R. Peabody and the part he played in alcoholism and AA. Thanks for your help. _________________________________________ From the moderator: One of the most thorough studies of Richard R. Peabody is in Richard M. Dubiel's book, "The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous" (2004), in Chapter 3, "The Continuation of Therapy: Courtenay Baylor and Richard R. Peabody." http://hindsfoot.org/kdub1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kdub2.html But I'm sure some of the members of the group will be able to give you a shorter account of Peabody and his book, "The Common Sense of Drinking." We know that Bill W. and Lois had both read that book. Jim Bishop's novel "The Glass Crutch" was a novel written back during that period, portraying in fictional form what it was like for an alcoholic to go to Peabody to get help in stopping drinking. The phrase in the Big Book "half measures availed us nothing" seems to have been drawn from Peabody's phrase "halfway measures are of no avail." Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3475. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson Telling His Story From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2006 5:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Someone asked me if there is a DVD or VHS of Bill W telling his story out of the BB. I don't know that's why I am asking AAHistoryLovers for your help with this. Thanks Paul IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3476. . . . . . . . . . . . When did the term "alcoholism" first start to be used? From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/10/2006 5:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi history lovers, Can anyone help us with the term alcoholism? When did this did word first begin to be used instead of dypsomania and who coined the term? Thanks for you help in this matter. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3477. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 138 Lexington Street in Brooklyn? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2006 8:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "jwltx2004" jwltx2004@yahoo.com (jwltx2004 at yahoo.com) 38 Livingston Street, Brooklyn, was Bill's home during his high flying years on Wall Street. Combined two apartments. Rick Tompkins had asked, what was the significance in AA history of the 138 Lexington Street address in Brooklyn, which is in relatively the same neighborhood as 192 Clinton Street (the Burnham home where Bill and Lois lived right before and immediately after Bill got sober)? jwltx2004 wrote in and gave us this information and a place to go and find out about other sites: There is a list of AA historical sites in New York City at http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/historic%20sites.htm jwltx2004 said, "I went to these places a couple of years ago and it was well worth the time." Historical Sites in New York from World Services Town's Hospital: 293 Central Park West. Bill made 4 trips to Town's Hospital and ultimately a Spiritual Experience. Dr Silkworth, Medical Superintendent, treated 40,000 alkies and wrote The Doctor's Opinion. Calvary Church/House: 21st and Park Ave. South where Bill attended Oxford Group meetings and got sober along with Ebby, Rowland, Cebra, Hank, and all the gang. Sam Shoemaker, source of 'all AA's spiritual principles via the Oxford Group,' was the pastor of Calvary. 17 Williams Street in Newark, NJ, "Honor Dealers" Office; Hank Parkhurst and Bill Wilson set up the first "Headquarters" office. Most of the Big Book is written here and Ruth Hock (secretary) is the first non-alcoholic employee. 30 Vesey Street, NYC, Second Office, After Bill splits with Hank. (1938-1940.) 415 Lexington; Office moves to Grand Central Area after Bill gets Bedford Hills home. Easy commute. (1940-1944) 141 East 44th Street. More space. (1950-1960.) 315 East 45th Street, larger quarters in Grand Central Area (1960- 1970.) 468 Park Avenue South; General Service Office for over 20 years, finally occupying 5 floors in 2 buildings. (including 470 Park Avenue South). (470) (1970-1992.) 475 Riverside Drive, 11th Floor/half of 10th (1992-present.) 38 Livingston Street, Brooklyn: Bill's home during high flying years on Wall Street. Combined two apartments. 182 Clinton Street; Brooklyn. Bill's home when he got sober. Gift of Lois's father. Lost during depression. (sober) 30 Rockefeller Plaza; where Bill met 'Uncle Dick' Richardson, conduit to John D Rockefeller. Bill sat in Rockefeller's chair on the 66th Floor Office of John D. Roosevelt Hotel, Madison Ave. and 44th Street. Site of over 35 General Service Conferences. Park Omni, Seventh Avenue and 56th Street. Site of General Service Conferences. New York Hilton, 1335 Avenue of the Americas, site of "Bill W Dinner" put on by NY Intergroup since 1945. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3478. . . . . . . . . . . . How many people did Bill W sponsor? From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2006 11:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi history lovers, I am standing in for trixiebellaa for a week and our study group have asked, how many people did bill w sponsor? Many Thanks Carl P. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3479. . . . . . . . . . . . How many whom Dr Bob sponsored stayed sober? From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2006 11:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi History Lovers, I am standing in for trixiebellaa for a week and our study group have asked, do you have any information on how many out of the five thousand people whom Dr. Bob sponsored stayed sober? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3480. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "My Name is Bill W" available on DVD - UPDATE From: sargeantgascan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/11/2006 7:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just picked up the new DVD today of "My Name is Bill W," and they really cleaned up the picture immensely. This movie has never looked this good. I don't think the original TV reel was this good, of course, it's been so long since I saw it on TV. But the DVD is very crisp and clean. In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "sargeantgascan" wrote: You might be pleased to know that "My Name is Bill W" is going to be released on DVD in June. I agree it is a great movie and I was really disappointed when I couldn't find it on DVD after finding my old VHS tapes picture quality so scratched up. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3481. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Richard R. Peabody From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2006 9:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a chapter on Richard Peabody and the Emmanuel Movement in my book "New Wine," published in 1991 by Hazelden. I had the feeling that Peabody's work had an important role in the forming of AA, though Peabody himself operated independently and passed on while the AA founders were still in the Oxford Group. It's interesting that Peabody's home and offices were less than a block from Sam Shoemaker's Calvary Episcopal Church, and a few of the early AA's may have sought his help. But there was no spiritual component in Peabody's method, and I don't think he really understood the extreme importance of getting rid of resentments at all costs. His first wife (who dumped him) was a beautiful woman named Polly who later took the name "Caresse" and married two more alcoholics after leaving Peabody (which supports the belief that certain women are attracted to drunks). The Jim Bishop book, "The Glass Crutch," gave us a good view of Peabody and the recovery achieved by his client, William Wister, in the same year that Bill Wilson got sober. But Wister got drunk after nine years and never really made it back, though he did work as a lay therapist for a while. Mel Barger __________________________________ The reference to the book "New Wine" was also sent in by michael oates __________________________________ Original Message from: "trixiebellaa" To: Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 5:13 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Richard R. Peabody > Can anyone give us any information on Richard R. > Peabody and the part he played in alcoholism and AA. > > Thanks for your help. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3482. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: My name is X From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2006 2:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jim, see: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/415 Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F Original message from: jamesoddname To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:09 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] My name is X When, where, and by whom did the practice begin of introducing ourselves at meetings with the formula "My name is X and I'm an alcoholic"? _______________________________ From the moderator: here are some of the best answers from Message 415: From: "Jim Blair" Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:57 am Subject: Fw: Qualifying at meetings The following is the response I received from Judit Santon, Archivist at the GSO in N.Y., N.Y. concerning the practice of identifying. Thank you for contacting us. It seems that this practice came from the Oxford Group, where members used to get up and qualify as "My name is.... and I'm a sinner." Please note, that this information was shared with us by oldtimers, and we have never carried out a historic research with regards to the customs of the Oxford Group to verify this. And Rick T. responded: From: "ricktompkins" Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:44 pm Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Sobriety Statement: When did we start saying it? Hi Group(s)! Jim B. is correct, and like many current practices, it did begin on the West Coast. Reading "How It Works" also came from the West Coast (cal-i-for-ni-a) when the group chairs looked around for something to read, sometime in the 1940s...Before then (and since then, too), many Groups had their own special preambles, greetings, lead-off texts (the beginning of Chapter 3 was another), and so on. _______________________________ More from the moderator: Sgt. Bill S. SAAA1948@aol.com (SAAA1948 at aol.com) is an AA oldtimer who got sober in 1948 on Long Island, just outside New York City, but also attended AA meetings in a part of Ohio near Akron a couple of years before that point. He later got to spend a year in Akron talking with Sister Ignatia every chance he got. He knows oldtime AA on the East Coast, in the Akron area, in Texas, and in California. http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html http://hindsfoot.org/bsv02psy.html Bill says that the early practice on the East Coast in the New York City area was to introduce oneself by saying "My name is X" and then give your sobriety date. His memory is that saying "My name is X and I'm an alcoholic" was originally more midwestern. Sgt. Bill, who lives in Sonoma, California, is still very active in AA, and goes around speaking to AA conferences and groups, and attending AA get-togethers (most recently the Gathering of the Eagles in Dallas, and Founders Day in Akron). He spoke as the keynote speaker at the National Archives Workshop in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, in 2003, replacing his good friend Searcy, who was on his deathbed. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3483. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dave B., "Gratitude in Action" From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/12/2006 7:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII GRATITUDE IN ACTION The story of Dave B., one of the founders of A.A. in Canada in 1944. Dave Bancroft b. Jun 25, 1908, Toronto, Canada, d. Dec 9, 1984, Montreal, Canada. m Dorothy Ford. Sobriety Apr 7, 1944. Founder A.A. Montreal Canada, 1st French members. He sobered up by reading a copy of the Big Book his sister sent him. Served as a Class B Trustee from 1962-1964. Dr Dancy, who treated Dave for alcoholism, went on to become the first Class A (nonalcoholic) trustee from Canada, serving from 1965-1974. Kim ----- Original Message ----- From: Henry To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 5:50 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dave B., "Gratitude in Action" I would be grateful if anyone can give me any information on Dave B , the writter of "Gratitude in Action" in the fourth edition of the Big Book. Henry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3484. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did the term "alcoholism" first start to be used? From: Billlwhite@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2006 9:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The term alcoholism was coined by Swedish physician Magnus Huss in 1849. After detailing the multiple organ systems affected by chronic alcohol exposure, Huss noted: "These symptoms are formed in such a particular way that they form a disease group in themselves and thus merit being designated and described as a definite disease. "It is this group of symptoms which I wish to designate by the name Alcoholismus chronicus." The reference for this work is: Huss, M. (1849). Alcoholismus chronicus: Chronisk alcoholisjudkom: Ett bidrag till dyskrasiarnas känndom. Stockholm: Bonner/Norstedt. The term alcoholism showed up occasionally in the Journal of Inebriety in the late 1800s but did come into widespread professional use until the early 1900s and did not achieve wide cultural popularity until the mid-twentieth century. It is interesting to note that the use of the term is currently in decline in professional circles and seems to be getting displaced by the broader term addiction in the culture at large. Bill White In a message dated 6/13/2006 12:47:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hayntra@aol.com writes: > Subj: [AAHistoryLovers] When did the term "alcoholism" first start to be > used? > Date: 6/13/2006 12:47:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time > From: hayntra@aol.com > Reply-to: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Sent from the Internet > > > > Hi history lovers, > Can anyone help us with the term alcoholism? > When did this did word first begin to be used > instead of dypsomania and who coined the term? > Thanks for you help in this matter. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3485. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How many people did Bill W sponsor? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2006 4:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 10:41 6/11/2006 , Carl P. wrote: >Hi history lovers, I am standing in for trixiebellaa >for a week and our study group have asked, how many >people did bill w sponsor? This is not a direct answer but is about Bill W's sponsoring. Francis Hartigan, in his book "Bill W., A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson," says pp. 191-192, ". . . many a dazzled newcomer, after a ten-minute conversation with Bill at an AA meeting, would ask him to be their sponsor, and invariably, Bill would agree. Soon the newcomers would find that, compared to other people's sponsors, theirs was hardly ever available." So while he may have sponsored a number of people, he was for the most part unavailable to them, and, by inference, a poor sponsor. YMMV, Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3486. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dave B., "Gratitude in Action" From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2006 4:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 06:50 6/7/2006 , you wrote: >I would be grateful if anyone can give me any information on Dave B , >the writter of "Gratitude in Action" in the fourth edition of the Big >Book. > >Henry Hi Henry. There used to be a web site that had the authors of the stories in the back of the Big Book and a brief bio, but I tried to access it just now and get an error msg. This site was run by an A.A. group in Baltimore. It's url was It was put together by the late owner of this list Nancy Olsen. This is what it said about Dave B.: Gratitude in Action -- Dave Bancroft Montreal, Quebec, Canada. (p. 193, 4th edition.) Heading: "The Story of Dave B., one of the founders of A.A. in Canada in 1944." Dave's date of sobriety was April 7, 1944. He was born on June 25, 1908, in Toronto, Canada, and spent his youth in Knowlton, Quebec. He married Dorothy Ford on September 1, 1929. They had three children and thirteen grandchildren. In Montreal, just before World War II, a young physician interested in alcoholism, Dr. Travis Dancey, had tried to get Dave to read the Big Book while he was incarcerated in a mental institution. Dave, angry and rebellious, literally threw the Big Book at his would-be benefactor. Dr. Dancey was taken into the military service and when he returned in late 1944 and saw Dave, the latter was newly sober in A.A. Dr. Dancey recalled that when he returned, Dave not only dragged him around to A.A. meetings, "but he had the effrontery to explain the spiritual principles of the program to me!" Dr. Dancey went on to become the first Class A. (nonalcoholic) trustee from Canada, serving from 1965-1974. Dave was a tireless twelfth-stepper, who founded the first A.A. group in the Province of Quebec. He served as a Class B (alcoholic) Trustee from 1962 to 1964. He died on December 9, 1984. Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3487. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Richard R. Peabody From: Ron Sessions . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2006 7:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Glass Crutch is an interesting novel. It provides a great insight into Peabody's approach. Very telling is the explanation given to William when he first starts working with Peabody. Peabody describes the alcoholic illness like this: "After all, alcoholism is nothing more than a disease of emotional immaturity. We all develop along three lines: physically, mentally and emotionally." Peabody stressed the idea of intellectual self and emotional self. The alcoholics job (under Peabody's treatment plan) was to overcome the emotional-self's' control with the intellectual self. ZOIKS!?!?!? Quite different than the life-saving revelation given in The Big Book - "...for we have not only been mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick. When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically." Emphasis on lack of ability to overcome our own thinking/emotions and absolute need to have a spiritual experience. I'll take the AA way any day (because reliance upon God works) any day. It's an interesting read though for those who might be interested. Ron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3488. . . . . . . . . . . . Long form of the Traditions and the 12 and 12 From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2006 3:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 12:11 5/28/2006 , sobie396@aol.com wrote: >Does anyone know when the long form of the Traditions >were added to the 12 and 12, and any reason why they were >omitted from early editions, like my June 1973 twelfth >printing? __________________________________ I have a 15th printing and it does _NOT_ have the long form Traditions. I was able to look at a 16th printing today and it does have the Traditions in the long form. The 15th printing was published in 1977 and the 16th in 1978 Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3489. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson Telling His Story From: Jim B . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2006 2:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul wrote Someone asked me if there is a DVD or VHS of Bill W telling his story out of the BB. AAWS lists a video in the literature catalog of Bill and Lois telling their stories. I believe it was produced around 1960. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3490. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bill Wilson Telling His Story From: Chuck Parkhurst . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/14/2006 1:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul At one time, World Services offered a video tape entitled "Bill's own story." I am not sure if it is still available. I have a copy that has 4/98 on the label. It is 60 minutes long and is Bill telling his own story from the grounds and in the kitchen of Stepping Stones, side by side with Lois. It is great!! In Service With Gratitude, Chuck Parkhurst ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 2:43 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill Wilson Telling His Story Someone asked me if there is a DVD or VHS of Bill W telling his story out of the BB. I don't know that's why I am asking AAHistoryLovers for your help with this. Thanks Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3491. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How many whom Dr Bob sponsored stayed sober? From: Jim B . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2006 2:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Carl wrote do you have any information on how many out of the five thousand people whom Dr. Bob sponsored stayed sober? My Ouija board says "3619." Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3492. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Long form of the Traditions and the 12 and 12 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/13/2006 9:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All I asked Amy Filiatrau, AAWS Archivist, and she replied that the long form of the Traditions was added to the 12and12 in its 16th printing. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hickcox Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 9:51 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Long form of the Traditions and the 12 and 12 From Tommy H. and Jim S. At 12:11 5/28/2006 , sobie396@aol.com wrote: >Does anyone know when the long form of the Traditions >were added to the 12 and 12, and any reason why they were >omitted from early editions, like my June 1973 twelfth >printing? __________________________________ I have a 15th printing and it does _NOT_ have the long form Traditions. Tommy H __________________________________ From: "Jim S." Date: Thu Jun 1, 2006 8:12 am My copy of the 12 and 12, printed in 1967, does not include the "long form." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Everything you need is one click away. Make Yahoo! your home page now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AHchtC/4FxNAA/yQLSAA/219olB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3493. . . . . . . . . . . . Moderator out of town June 17 to July 5 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2006 10:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn C., the moderator of the AAHistoryLovers, will be out of town from June 17 to July 5, 2006: I'm going to be staying at various campgrounds where I won't have access to the internet, so please hold off on emailing me until I'm back in South Bend. _________________________________________ As part of the trip, I will be speaking briefly at the One-Day History and Archives Gathering on June 24, 2006, in Lebanon, Pennsylvania, see Message 3351: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3351 Barefoot Bill L. will be on one of the panels at the conference in Lebanon, Mitchell K. will speak on "Experiencing AA History: Doing the Steps with Clarence S.," and oldtimer Chet H., Hummelstown, Pennsylvania (sober April 4, 1949) will speak and/or do a question and answer session. _________________________________________ Fiona D. (Ballina, County Mayo, Ireland), who has helped moderate and take care of the AAHistoryLovers since it was started in March 2002, and to whom we all owe a great debt of thanks, will be watching out for the group for the next two and half weeks. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3494. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How many whom Dr Bob sponsored stayed sober? From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2006 12:42:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question was, "How many out of the five thousand people whom Dr. Bob sponsored stayed sober?" Dr Bob did not "sponsor" five thousand people. That is how many he helped to detox. Big Book (page 171) says, "To 1950, the year of his death, he carried the A.A. message to more than 5,000 alcoholic men and women, and to all these he gave his medical services without thought of charge." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3495. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Richard R. Peabody From: Jim B . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2006 4:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ron wrote It provides a great insight into Peabody's approach. People who practiced the Peabody approach were described as "being like industrial engineers as they carried a time sheet with the day laid out with things to be accomplished." Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3496. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dave B., "Gratitude in Action" From: dhart1@tampabay.rr.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2006 4:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For the story of Dave B., "Gratitude in Action," in Nancy Olson's Biographies of the Authors of the Big Book Stories: Henry, There is a similar URL with Nancy's Big Book bios at: http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html Doug ___________________________________ Original Message from: Tom Hickcox Henry, you wrote: "I would be grateful if anyone can give me any information on Dave B., the writer of 'Gratitude in Action' in the fourth edition of the Big Book." ___________________________________ Hi Henry, There used to be a web site that had the authors of the stories in the back of the Big Book and a brief bio, but I tried to access it just now and get an error message .... Its url was It was put together by the late owner of this list, Nancy Olson. ___________________________________ From: Ron Sessions Try this link - it works for me... http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm Ron ___________________________________ From the moderator: Al W. in Baltimore, who manages the website for the East Baltimore AA Group, tells me that they have recently changed to a new web server, which is case sensitive. This has been what has been throwing things off, and making people get error messages. Since the new web server is case sensitive, this means that if you put AA in capital letters, the url won't work. If you type it as aa, the url works just fine. So we have two good places to look up this set of Biographies of the Authors of the Big Book Stories: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html I tested these just now, and both of the above addresses work. ___________________________________ Nancy Olson (September 18, 1929 - March 25, 2005), founded the AAHistoryBuffs in March 2000: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryBuffs/ In March 2002, the group changed its name to the AAHistoryLovers, the name under which it is still known. Nancy continued to be the moderator down to her death from congestive heart failure a little over a year ago. Nancy Olson was also the author of a major book on AA history: "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism" http://hindsfoot.org/kno1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kno2.html http://hindsfoot.org/kno3.html Her book is still considered almost mandatory reading among the administrators at the U.S. Surgeon General's Office and at a number of major national foundations, because it gives the history of how the Hughes Act was passed, the most successful piece of alcoholism legislation enacted in the United States in the twentieth century. All modern alcoholism treatment facilities in the United States depend in part on provisions originally laid out in the Hughes Act and the other associated bills which Nancy helped get passed in her capacity as aide to Senator Harold Hughes. The story of Nancy's life is given at: http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html http://hindsfoot.org/nomem2.html http://hindsfoot.org/nomem3.html http://hindsfoot.org/nomem4.html -- Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) Moderator of the AAHistoryLovers IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3497. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How many whom Dr Bob sponsored stayed sober? From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/15/2006 3:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII mine said 2237 but I have to take into account the U.S. Canadian exchange rate. --- Jim B wrote: > Carl wrote > do you have any information on how many out of the > five thousand people > whom Dr. Bob sponsored stayed sober? > > My Ouija board says "3619." > Jim > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3498. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How many whom Dr Bob sponsored stayed sober? From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/16/2006 5:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Carl wrote do you have any information on how many out of the five thousand people whom Dr. Bob sponsored stayed sober? My Ouija board says "3619." Jim ++++++++++++++++++ Mine says 3627, but it is admittedly an older model and some folks may have gone out between editions.... Edgar C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3499. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: How many whom Dr Bob sponsored stayed sober? From: Jan L. Robinson . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/17/2006 9:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mine says 5001, but it's from Alanon. Jan R. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 12:55 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] How many whom Dr Bob sponsored stayed sober? mine said 2237 but I have to take into account the U.S. Canadian exchange rate. --- Jim B wrote: > Carl wrote > do you have any information on how many out of the > five thousand people > whom Dr. Bob sponsored stayed sober? > > My Ouija board says "3619." > Jim > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3500. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: How many whom Dr Bob sponsored stayed sober? From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/18/2006 10:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello All, I'm not the most knowledgeable member of this site by any means; and this would be my first post here, if it passes by our good moderators...My own belief is that, perhaps the best response to this question would be "enough". Dr. Bob sponsored Henry "Clay" Pearce who worked the boilerrooms of the rubbershops when many of the other Akron members had no jobs and were fallen on hard times like Dr. Bob himself...he was always willing to give, was described as one of those who would give you the shirt off his own back if he thought it would help, he tried on several occaissions to give money to Dr. Bob, he was described as a "stayer" (I have this from Sue and Smitty who shared several stories with me)...they laughed and said that whenever he came over he came to stay,... he, along with co-sponsor Jim Scott, the newsman, and booktrader, also sponsored by Dr. Bob, who was known to buy baskets of groceries too, together sponsored Bill Sipe, a very active twelfth stepper, (I have this from Bill's son who has his Big Book inscribed with this information), who sponsored Russ Ickes, first manager of the Akron Intergroup Office, (I have this from a tape of Russ's lead at the East Akron Group) who in turn sponsored my, now deceased, sponsor John Lietch, a past chairman of our Akron Intergroup, who worked for many years as Residential Life Co-ordinator at Interval Brotherhood Home here in Akron and was a longtime Chairman of the Founders Foundation, which then operated Dr. Bob's Home. John often told me the things that "old Russ" had told him. He himself said without "Gratitude" we don't stay long...Russ said "Without Humility there is no Gratitude". The other thing he told me was perhaps simplest of all...he said, "These oldtimer's aren't going to be here forever Woody; someone's got to keep this thing going!" I know today who he was talking about; and, if it is God's will, then it will be the fellows that I sponsor, and those that you sponsor too, who will do just that. And it is my hope that, like Dr. Bob's sponsee's, there are enough of them to do the job. John was the youngest of those sponsored by Russ Icke's with Red Bates being the oldest...John and Russ and their wives Jackie and Edith were neighbors in the Trailer Park at Sandy Beach off S. Main Street in the portage lakes here in Akron, Ohio. I notice that there aren't a lot of people in between these few men, but I know that those between are just not visible to the eye as each of these men recieved and carried a very important message, faithfully and very succesfully over a long period of time. I may be an exception in knowing the history of my own sponsorship because there were so few between me and Dr. Bob, but the action of sponsorship, ...the unselfish principal which is illustrated here... is the same for each of us within this marvelous fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, these fellows just stayed awhile at the job and were good enough to pass this thing along to me. A not too knowledgeable, but very grateful, Woody in Akron edgarc@aol.com wrote: Carl wrote do you have any information on how many out of the five thousand people whom Dr. Bob sponsored stayed sober? My Ouija board says "3619." Jim ++++++++++++++++++ Mine says 3627, but it is admittedly an older model and some folks may have gone out between editions.... Edgar C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3501. . . . . . . . . . . . The Origins of "Mocous"? From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/19/2006 11:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here in Connecticut, I heard it again yesterday. The woman at the meeting said she was feeling "mocous" (pronounced: Moe-cuss). It is a term generally (but not always) applied to newcomers and indicates the jumbled, confused and usually foggy thought patterns that come with early sobriety. "Befogged" might be a good synonym. While this word is used with real regularity in our area and is understood by all, I have been unable to find it in any dictionary. Is this word in use elsewhere aroung the country? Does anyone know the origins of the word and its use? Is this an "AA-invented" word? And, if so, is it the only one you know about? Best, Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3502. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Origins of "Mocous"? From: sbanker914@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/19/2006 1:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 6/19/2006 2:52:29 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, schaberg@aol.com writes: Is this word in use elsewhere aroung the country? I heard it a lot when I got sober in NYC in the late '80's. We spelled it MOCUS "Mentally Out Cruising Uncharted Space" Susan NYC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3503. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Origins of "Mocous"? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/19/2006 5:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 10:46 6/19/2006 , Old Bill wrote: >Here in Connecticut, I heard it again yesterday. The woman at the >meeting said she was feeling "mocous" (pronounced: Moe-cuss). It is >a term generally (but not always) applied to newcomers and indicates >the jumbled, confused and usually foggy thought patterns that come >with early sobriety. "Befogged" might be a good synonym. > >While this word is used with real regularity in our area and is >understood by all, I have been unable to find it in any dictionary. > >Is this word in use elsewhere aroung the country? > >Does anyone know the origins of the word and its use? > >Is this an "AA-invented" word? > >And, if so, is it the only one you know about? My lovely wife Jean, dos June 3, 1988, got sober and lived in the New York City area for 17 years afterwards and says that the word is an A.A. word and means "Moving slow and out of focus." The synonym she used is "befuddled." It is applied mostly to new comers but someone with a few twenty-four hours may say, "I'm feeling mocous." I had not heard the word used here in Baton Rouge A.A. until she used it. Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3504. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: How many whom Dr Bob sponsored stayed sober? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2006 9:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Dr Bob and Sister Ignatia together helped around 5,000 alcoholics while they were patients in St Thomas Hospital. Dr Bob's main activity was ministering to them as an attending physician (not as a sponsor) during their hospital stay (and he never accepted any fee for his services). For this, in his eulogy at Dr Bob's funeral, Bill W rightfully called him "the prince of the 12th Steppers." Dr Bob only lived for 15 years after sobering up. 15 years equals 5,475 days (leap years days not included). While Dr Bob may have sponsored some of those 5,000 patients, the notion that he sponsored 5,000 members over the course of his 5,475 sober days on this planet makes for an entertaining fable but little more than that. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jan L. Robinson Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 8:31 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] How many whom Dr Bob sponsored stayed sober? Mine says 5001, but it's from Alanon. Jan R. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 12:55 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] How many whom Dr Bob sponsored stayed sober? mine said 2237 but I have to take into account the U.S. Canadian exchange rate. --- Jim B wrote: > Carl wrote > do you have any information on how many out of the > five thousand people > whom Dr. Bob sponsored stayed sober? > > My Ouija board says "3619." > Jim > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/phWpKB/lOaOAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3505. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Story Author Interview (1 of 4) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/21/2006 8:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Interview With the Author of "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" First in a series of articles on authors of Big Book stories AA Grapevine, July 1995 Dr. Paul O.'s story, "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" is published in the Third Edition of the Big Book; his remarks on acceptance, which appear on pages 449 and 450, have been helpful to many AA members over the years. This interview was conducted by telephone to Dr. Paul's home in California. How did you come to write the story that's in the Big Book? The editor of the Grapevine--a woman named Paula C.--was also the chairperson of the committee to review the stories. She wrote to tell me that the magazine was going to use an article I'd written on why doctors shouldn't prescribe pills for alcoholics. So she knew my writing a little bit and she asked me if I had a dual problem and would I be willing to write an article about it for consideration in the Big Book. My reaction to that was the same as my reaction when it was suggested I come to AA--I thought it was one of the dumbest ideas I'd ever heard and I ignored her letter. Later on she called and asked for the article, and I lied and said I hadn't had time to write it. She extended the deadline and called me a second time. I had a gal working in the office with me who was in the program, and she thought it would be nice to have typed a story that might end up in the Big Book, so she said to me, "You write it, I'll type it, and we'll send it in." So that's what we did. But by that time they had done another printing of the Second Edition, and I thought, Fine, that means they won't use it. But Paula said she liked it and the Grapevine published it with the title "Bronzed Mocassins" and an illustration of a pair of bronze mocassins. Eventually it was put in the Big Book, but the title was changed, and my guess is that they wanted to show that an alcoholic could be a professional and be an addict, but that wouldn't make him not an alcoholic. It worked well but maybe it overshot the mark, and now one of the most uncomfortable things for me is when people run up to me at a meeting and tell me how glad they are the story is in the book. They say they've been fighting with their home group because their home group won't let them talk about drugs. So they show their group the story and they say, "By God, now you'll have to let me talk about drugs." And I really hate to see the story as a divisive thing. I don't think we came to AA to fight each other. Is there anything you regret having written in your story? Well, I must say I'm really surprised at the number of people who come up to me and ask me confidentially if what they've heard on the very best authority--usually from their sponsor--is true: that there are things in my story I want to change, or that I regret having written it, or that I want to take it out because it says so much about drugs, or that I've completely changed my mind that AA is the answer or even that acceptance is the answer. I've also heard--on the best authority!--that I've died or gotten drunk or on pills. The latest one was that my wife Max died and that I got so depressed I got drunk. So, is there anything I'd like to change? No. I believe what I said more now than when I wrote it. Do you think that your story might help those who are dually addicted? I think it does. I think the story makes clear the truth that an alcoholic can also be an addict, and indeed that an alcoholic has a constitutional right to have as many problems as he wants! But I also think that if you're not an alcoholic, being an addict doesn't make you one. The way I see it, an alcoholic is a person who can't drink and who can't use drugs, and an addict is a person who can't use drugs and can't drink. But that doesn't mean that every AA meeting has to be open to a discussion of drugs if it doesn't want to. Every meeting has the right to say it doesn't want drugs discussed. People who want to discuss drugs have other places where they can go to talk about that. And AA is very open to giving the Steps and Traditions to other groups who want to use them. I know this from my own experience, because I wrote to the General Service Office and got permission to start Pills Anonymous and Chemical Dependency Anonymous. I did that when I was working in the field of chemical dependency. We started groups but I didn't go to them because I get everything I need from AA. I don't have any trouble staying away from talking about drugs, and I never introduce myself as an alcoholic/addict. I'm annoyed--or maybe irritated is a better word--by the people who keep insisting that AA should broaden to include drugs and addictions other than alcohol. In fact I hear it said that AA should change its name to Addicts Anonymous. I find that a very narrow-minded view based on people's personal opinions and not on good sense. History tells us that the Washingtonians spread themselves so thin they evaporated. Jim B. says the greatest thing that ever happened in AA was the publication of the Big Book, because it put in writing what the program was and made it available all over the world. So wherever you go it's the same program. I don't see how you could change the program unless you changed the book and I can't see that happening. It's a question of singleness of purpose? That singleness of purpose thing is so significant. It seems to be working; why would we change it? I can't think of any change that would be an improvement. Nowadays drunks seem to come to meetings already dried out, but that wasn't always the case. No, it wasn't. You don't get Twelfth Step calls as dramatic as they used to be. Now I find that if you're called upon to make a Twelfth Step call, it'll be on somebody who is in the hospital. You find out when they're available and not in some other kind of meeting, and make an appointment. But this might change as the number of treatment programs begins to fade out. I used to make "cold turkey" calls, where the alcoholic hadn't asked for help. One time I went to see this guy who was described to me as a big husky fellow. He was holed up in a motel. I found out from the manager of the motel that he was on the second floor, and as I was walking up the outside stairs to get to his place, I thought to myself, if this guy comes charging out the door, he could easily throw me over the stair railing and I'd end up on the concrete. So I thought, well, the good news is I'd probably be one of AA's first martyrs. Then I thought, yeah, but I'd be an anonymous martyr. I made the call anyhow, and he got sober for a while. In your Big Book story, you say that acceptance is the key to everything. I wonder if you've ever had a problem accepting what life hands you. I think today that my job really is to enjoy life whether I like it or not. I don't like everything I have to accept. In fact, if everything was to my specifications and desires there would be no problem with acceptance. It's accepting things I don't like that is difficult. It's accepting when I'm not getting my own way. Yes, I find it very difficult at times. Anything specific? Nothing major, though it sometimes seems major that I have to accept living with my wife Max and her ways of doing things! She is an entirely different person than I am. She likes clutter, I like things orderly. She thinks randomly and I like structured thinking. We're very, very different. We never should have gotten married! Last December we were married fifty-five years. I guess she knows your thoughts on this matter. Ad nauseum. You're still going to meetings? I'd say five or six a week. Do you and Max go to meetings together? Max isn't in AA, she's in Al-Anon and she's still very active in it. But I go to Al-Anon too, and that helps a great deal, and Max comes to open AA meetings with me and that helps too. It's kind of like Elsa C. used to say: when two people have their individual programs, it's like railroad tracks, two separate and parallel rails, but with all those meetings holding them together. Do you think you'd still be married if you hadn't gone to meetings all these years? I'm sure we wouldn't. I initially thought that the Serenity Prayer said I'd have to change the things I couldn't accept. So I thought, well, we can't get along so it's time to change the marriage. I used to go around looking for old-timers who would agree with me and say that's what the Serenity Prayer meant. But Max and I finally made a commitment to the marriage and stopped talking about divorce and started working our programs. In fact we tend to sponsor each other, which is a dangerous thing to do, but we help each other see when we need more meetings, or need to work a certain Step or something like that. Do you have, or did you have, a sponsor? Early on I was talking to a friend of mine, Jack N., who was sober a couple of months longer than I was. Jack and his wife and Max and I used to go to AA speaker meetings together. I was telling him how my home group was nagging at me because I didn't have a sponsor, and on the spur of the moment I said, "Why don't you be my sponsor?" and on the spur of the moment he said to me, "I'll be your sponsor if you'll be my sponsor." And I said, "I don't know if they'll allow that." But we decided to try it and it worked out. He calls me 'cause I'm his sponsor and I call him 'cause he's my sponsor so I guess we call each other twice as often. We're still sponsoring each other. That's been going on for twenty-seven years. He moved to L. A. but we stay in touch, mostly by phone. Is there a tool or a slogan or a Step that is particularly useful to you right now? Pretty much every morning, before I get out of bed, I say the Serenity Prayer, the Third Step Prayer, and the Seventh Step Prayer. Then Max and I repeat those prayers along with other prayers and meditations at breakfast. And I say those three prayers repeatedly throughout the day. I grew up thinking that I had to perfect my personality, then I got into AA, and AA said, no, that isn't the way we do it: only God can remove our defects. I was amazed to find that I couldn't be a better person simply by trying harder! What I've done with a number of problems--like fear and depression and insomnia--is to treat them as defects of character, because they certainly affect my personality adversely. With depression, I've never taken any antidepressants. Instead, with any defect I want to get rid of, I become willing to have it removed, then I ask God to remove it, then I act like he has. Now, I know God has a loophole that says he'll remove it unless it's useful to you or to my fellows. So I tell him I'd like my defect removed completely, but he can sleep on it, and in the morning he can give me the amount he wants me to have, and I'll accept it as a gift from him. I'll take whatever he gives me. I've never done that when he hasn't removed a great deal of my defect, but I've never done it when he has permanently and totally removed any defect. But the result is that I no longer fight myself for having it. That's a helpful way of seeing things. It makes defects into a gift. That's right. And it's the Rule Sixty-two business [see Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, p. 149]. It's like Father Terry always says, "Be friendly with your defects." In fact some poet said, "Hug your demon, otherwise it'll bite you in the ass." Poets can talk like that. Has your sponsoring changed over the years? I do a lot more stuff by telephone. When I'm speaking at a meeting, if I think of it, I give out my home phone number. So I get a lot of phone calls from all over the country. People ask me if I'm willing to help them as a sponsor and I tell them, well, you call me every day for thirty days, or maybe sixty or ninety or whatever, and then they call me every day, and we get to know each other, and during that time we find out what it's like to be relating to each other. It's kind of a probationary period. Then if they still want me to be their sponsor, we'll go ahead and if they don't, we move on and there's no loss. And this gets them accustomed to calling, so when they have a problem, they don't have to analyze it at great depth and decide if it's bad enough that they should bother me with a phone call. I haven't personally been doing each Step individually with people as much, but I've redone all the Steps myself on an average of every five years. And every time I've done that, my sobriety has stepped up to a new plateau, just like the first time I did them. Sometimes people call me 'cause they're feeling in a funk, their sponsor has moved away or died, or they've moved away from their sponsor, or the meetings don't mean much anymore. They aren't getting anything out of AA. And because of my relationship with pills, I've had a lot of people come to me and say they've got--what do you call it?--a "chemical imbalance." They're seeing a counselor who says, "Yeah, you're depressed," and the counselor wants to start them on an antidepressant. My suggestion is, if you want to do something like that and you haven't done the Steps in a number of years, do the Steps first. And repeatedly people will do that and decide they don't need the pills. When you speak at out-of-state AA meetings, does Max go with you? I don't go unless she goes. Why not? Because I decided I didn't come to AA to become a traveling salesman and be away from home. So we go where it's a big enough event that they can take us both. And what's really more fun is if it's a mixed event where Max can speak, especially if she gets to speak first. She likes that. She likes to say that I say that she tells a perverted version of my drinking story. Then she points out that I was the one who was drinking and she was the one who was sober. There are many more young people in the Fellowship now. Do you think young people have special problems because they're getting sober at such an early age? People always say they're so glad to see the young people come in, and I agree, but I'm glad to see the old people come in too. I like to see anybody get sober. It's hard to say whether your pain is greater than my pain or mine's greater than yours. I'm sure that young people have problems, but we all have problems--gays have problems, people who are addicted to other drugs have problems, single people have problems. I can't think of anything more of a problem than being a woman alcoholic trying to get sober, married to a practicing alcoholic male, and with a handful of kids. That must be as about as big a problem as you can get. Everybody has special problems. I've said it often and I haven't had any reason to change my mind: the way I see it, I've never had a problem and nobody will ever come to me with a problem such that there won't be an answer in the Steps. That gives me a great deal of confidence. I think the program--the Steps--covers everything conceivable. I'm getting way off from what you asked me. I can't give short answers. I often tell people that the more I know about something, the shorter the answer, but when I don't know, I just make up stuff. Did you find it helpful at some point to become familiar with the Traditions? I find the Steps easier to understand than the Traditions and the Traditions easier to understand than the Concepts. In fact, I find the long form of the Traditions considerably easier to understand than the short form, and I find that the long form is much more specific on the idea that AA is for alcoholics and not for just anybody who wants to come in. A lot of people like that phrase "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking," and people interpret that to mean that if you're willing to not drink, you can call yourself an alcoholic and a member of AA. That's not at all what it says. I think it means that if you're an alcoholic with a desire to stop drinking, that's the only requirement for membership. How many years have you been sober now? Twenty-seven. Twenty-seven years of meetings. Have you seen any changes in the way the meetings are conducted? All I see is that there are more meetings and bigger meetings and more variety of meetings. I just love to see AA grow. I enjoy meetings. I've been to meetings in Singapore and Hong Kong and Japan, but I think the most interesting was when Chuck C. and Al D. and I were vacationing in the Cayman Islands and we couldn't find any meetings. We were twelfth-stepping alcoholics there and decided we all needed a meeting, so we went to the local newspaper and got some publicity. Then we had a public information meeting, then we got a regular meeting started. As far as I know, that meeting is still going. So you haven't gotten bored by Alcoholics Anonymous. Well, I thought about that some years back. Why is it that so many people aren't around any more? Where do they go? It seems to me that most of the people who leave AA leave because of boredom. I made up my mind I wasn't going to get bored, and one of the things I do when I get bored, if I can't think of anything else to do, is to start a new meeting. I've probably started fifteen or twenty. The most recent one was last November. I got a couple of friends together and we started a "joy of sobriety" meeting--it's a one-hour topic discussion meeting and it has to be a topic out of the Big Book and it has to be on the program and how you enjoy living the program. It's fast-moving and we just have a lot of fun. It's a great antidote for depression. What's the most important thing you've gotten from AA? This whole thing is so much more than just sobriety. To be sober and continue the life I had before--that would have driven me back to drink. One of the things I really like about AA is that we all have a sense of direction, plus a roadmap telling us precisely how to get there. I like that. All I want out of AA is more and more and more until I'm gone. DR. PAUL IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3506. . . . . . . . . . . . "Man of thirty" on page 32 of the Big Book From: tflynn96 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/20/2006 3:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello to all, This question is regarding the "man of thirty" described on pg 32 of the big book. I have just finished reading the book "Common Sense of Drinking" by Richard Peabody. I am under the impression and it has been suggested that the "man of thirty" story was adapted from that book. There was one story on pg 37 speaking of a man 36 yrs old and had been drinking for 16 yrs and another on pg 123 regarding a man who gave up drinking to make a million dollars. Neither one of them match the story in the book. The story on pg 123 is the one that most closely matches the story in the book. The big discrepancy in the story is the amount of sobriety this man had (full text below). The big book speaks of 25 years of sobriety and the other states he had 5 years sober. My questions are: 1.Does anyone the "who" the actual man either book was referring to? 2.Was the story taken from CSoD or was he someone that was an acquaintance of one of the early members? 3.Was the story in the BB a combination of both pg 37 and 123 along with a misquote or was it more like a generalized idea that came from CSoD along with "artistic license" while writing the BB (like the 100 men and women statement)? My assumption is they read the book, kind of jumbled up the 2 stories, put in 25 years to dramatize it and at the same time smash home the fact that "once an alcoholic always an alcoholic". That is just my assumption and I am not a historian. Does anyone have any other information regarding or can verify my assumption? Thank you all in advance for your time. With Sincerity Tracy F, Chicago "Some years ago there lived a man who decided to give up drinking until he could make a million dollars, at which time he intended to drink in moderation. It took him 5 years - of sobriety - to make the million; then he begins his "moderate" drinking. In two or three years he lost all his money, and in another three he died of alcoholism." From Common Sense of Drinking by Richard Peabody. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3508. . . . . . . . . . . . Still Working Miracles (correction) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2006 10:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII (For those of you who don't know, Bill W. [after a failed business deal in Akron OH] called Rev. Walter Tunks who gave him 10 phone numbers because Bill was looking for an Oxford Group member who knew of a drunk Bill could help. Bill called all 10 numbers but found no drunk. One of the 10 calls he made referred him to another name and number, that of Henrietta Seiberling, who got Bill in touch with Dr. Bob. - Just Love, Barefoot Bill) A.A. Is Religion With Feet on Ground AA Grapevine, July 1948 In a sermon recently delivered in St. Paul's Episcopal Church, Akron, Ohio, Rev. Walter F. Tunks, D.D. said: "Therein the patient must minister to himself. But ministering to one's self isn't enough! Many of you who have tried it, know that! This week I attended a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. If you want to see a religion with its feet on the ground, still working miracles through the power of God, get in touch with that earnest group that is lifting men and women out of the gutter and restoring them to lives of usefulness. But as one of them said the other night, 'Take God out of our group, and we have nothing left but human fellowship, and that isn't enough'! Over the place where I stood to speak hung a motto of the group with its terse reminder, 'But for the grace of God--' Maybe alcohol isn't your problem. But whatever your weakness is, you will never overcome it by flexing your own muscles. We can't swing up a rope attached to our own belt straps. All our human efforts fail until they are anchored in the rock that is higher than I." Akron, Ohio IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3509. . . . . . . . . . . . First Reader''s Digest Meeting From: nyckevinh . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/23/2006 12:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know the exact or approximate date that Bill W. and Hank P. first met with Kenneth Payne at Reader's Digest in the fall of 1938? According to AACA, this is when they were told that Reader's Digest would probably be interested in writing a story about AA and the book they were trying to publish. Thanks for the help. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3510. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Man of thirty" on page 32 of the Big Book From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/22/2006 6:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Tracy, My feeling is that both the Big Book account and Peabody's examples were hearsay. It's possible that Peabody didn't really know who the two gentlemen were. But I think both Bill and Peabody were trying to establish how tenacious alcoholism is and how it stays as a latent threat even after years of abstinence. We don't really need these stories anymore because we have the long experience of AA to show us that they were based on truth, however hazy the origins. We see examples of AA members who pick up after years of sobriety and the outcomes are usually very bad. As a "Man of Eighty" with 56 years' sobriety, I'm more convinced than ever that Bill and Peabody were right. Mel Barger ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "tflynn96" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 3:45 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Man of thirty" on page 32 of the Big Book Hello to all, This question is regarding the "man of thirty" described on pg 32 of the big book. I have just finished reading the book "Common Sense of Drinking" by Richard Peabody. I am under the impression and it has been suggested that the "man of thirty" story was adapted from that book. There was one story on pg 37 speaking of a man 36 yrs old and had been drinking for 16 yrs and another on pg 123 regarding a man who gave up drinking to make a million dollars. Neither one of them match the story in the book. The story on pg 123 is the one that most closely matches the story in the book. The big discrepancy in the story is the amount of sobriety this man had (full text below). The big book speaks of 25 years of sobriety and the other states he had 5 years sober. My questions are: 1.Does anyone the "who" the actual man either book was referring to? 2.Was the story taken from CSoD or was he someone that was an acquaintance of one of the early members? 3.Was the story in the BB a combination of both pg 37 and 123 along with a misquote or was it more like a generalized idea that came from CSoD along with "artistic license" while writing the BB (like the 100 men and women statement)? My assumption is they read the book, kind of jumbled up the 2 stories, put in 25 years to dramatize it and at the same time smash home the fact that "once an alcoholic always an alcoholic". That is just my assumption and I am not a historian. Does anyone have any other information regarding or can verify my assumption? Thank you all in advance for your time. With Sincerity Tracy F, Chicago "Some years ago there lived a man who decided to give up drinking until he could make a million dollars, at which time he intended to drink in moderation. It took him 5 years - of sobriety - to make the million; then he begins his "moderate" drinking. In two or three years he lost all his money, and in another three he died of alcoholism." From Common Sense of Drinking by Richard Peabody. Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________________ Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com 11:47:04 PM ET - 6/21/2006 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3511. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Story Author Interview (2 of 4) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2006 8:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Interview With the Author of "Stars Don't Fall" Second in a series of articles on authors of Big Book stories AA Grapevine, August 1995 Felicia M. is eighty-nine years old and has been sober for over fifty-one years; she joined the Fellowship in the fall of 1943, when it was only eight years old. Her story, "Stars Don't Fall," is in the Third Edition of the Big Book. On a clear cold afternoon last January, the managing editor of the Grapevine and an editorial assistant drove up to the small town in Connecticut where Felicia M. lives. We found her modest house on a quiet back lane. Several big evergreens were in the front yard; in the backyard, a bird feeder hung from a bare tree. Inside, her house was cozy. A whole row of cookbooks filled a shelf over the kitchen door. The walls were hung with pictures--western scenes with men and women on horseback, a painting by a grandson, a large oil by a well-known abstract painter of the nineteen fifties, and some watercolors by Felicia herself, who began painting during one period when she couldn't write (Felicia is a professional writer). The three of us sat in Felicia's small book-lined living room, where the winter light filtered through the draperies, and Felicia served us coffee and cookies as we talked about AA and her recovery from alcoholism. In her Big Book story, Felicia tells about the turbulent times of her drinking: from her chauffeured "self-guided" tour of Europe's wine countries to being the down-and-out habitué of a Greenwich Village bar, where the other customers took to moving their stools to avoid her. Drinking wasn't a pleasant experience for her; it was, she wrote, like getting a "tap on the head with a small mallet." Felicia told us, "I had low self-esteem and behaved accordingly--and so of course I got into trouble all the time." Her analyst was one of the earliest members of the psychiatric profession to learn about Alcoholics Anonymous; Felicia explained, "Bill had addressed a bunch of shrinks, you see, and my analyst heard him. She said to me, 'You've been coming here either drunk or hungover for a year. And I think these people have something.'" The psychiatrist gave Felicia the Big Book to read and sent her to meet a man named "Mr. W." Bill W. suggested that Felicia meet Marty M., the first woman to get--and stay--sober in AA. Marty became Felicia's sponsor: "She was my sponsor until the day she died. I still miss her very much." When Felicia was sober less than a year, she wrote a short piece for the first issue of this magazine, in June 1944 (she was then known as Felicia G.). Over the years, she wrote a number of articles for the Grapevine and worked for a time, without pay, reading and editing manuscripts. During the 1970s, she was active on the Grapevine's Editorial Advisory Board. Felicia has written both novels and nonfiction. She published several novels while she was still drinking, as recounted in the Big Book. She said, "Of course I used to write when I was drunk--my writing was quite a mess. Since getting sober, I've written some things I'm not ashamed of." How did she write her Big Book story? "I was down in Florida, and it just came out--I didn't correct at all; it just poured out of me." "My life," Felicia said, "is so much better in sobriety. The main thing is that I believe in God and I can appeal to him and I can get results." She added, "If I hadn't stopped drinking, I'd be dead: if you had buried me with an acorn in my mouth, I'd have raised an oak tree by now." One of the benefits of Felicia's sobriety is that she and her family were able to make amends. "The thing that I'm very happy about is that I was able to make friends with my mother before her death. We forgave each other. My daughter and I didn't get along for quite a while but now we're really good friends--and I get on with my four grandchildren. I've gone out to Wyoming to see them, and they've been back East. And this is all because of my being sober. I can look back six generations in my family and see only fighting and hatred, and now it's stopped. I go back and pray for my fighting antecedents! I think that's why I was put here--to put an end to the whole business of discord in my family, to break the cycle." Are there any regrets? "I didn't marry the right man. I wasn't able to live a happy life in that way. I hope that in the next world, I can do it." The process of change hasn't stopped simply because Felicia has been sober so long. She tries to go to a meeting a week, and she stopped smoking "fairly recently." She still battles what she called in the Big Book "my mortal enemy--the inner me." She said, "I've always had trouble with my temper and with speaking out. I remember Bill had a room in the old Hell's Kitchen clubhouse on Forty-Fifth Street, and one day over there I lost my temper and I went for this woman--actually went for her. She started crying and Bill just comforted her and said nothing to me. I was very ashamed. Oh! I still remember it. I need the 'soft word that turneth away wrath.' I'm still working on that. I'm trying to learn to be tolerant and understanding of those who differ with me." As we were preparing to leave, Felicia told us, "I don't know what more I can say. I can only tell you the difference between then and now: I have a belief in God. My life is happy." FELICIA M. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3512. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Story Author Interview (2 of 4) From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2006 12:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To Bill Lash et al: I appreciate your sending us this interview with Felicia. I had interviewed her in 1980 in the same little home described here and also had correspondence with her. She was, indeeed, one of the key persons who helped get the Grapevine off to a good start. Her first husband had been a very prominent columnist and her mother had been a well-known and very controversial owner of newspapers, although I don't think there was much of the fortune left by the time I interviewed Felicia. My impression was that she just had enough income to get by but was grateful for her cozy little home and what she had found in AA. Despite frequent bouts with depression, she was a good AA and represented the fellowship well. Mel Barger ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lash" To: Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 8:55 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Story Author Interview (2 of 4) > Interview With the Author of "Stars Don't Fall" > Second in a series of articles on authors of Big Book stories > AA Grapevine, August 1995 > > Felicia M. is eighty-nine years old and has been sober for over fifty-one > years; she joined the Fellowship in the fall of 1943, when it was only > eight > years old. Her story, "Stars Don't Fall," is in the Third Edition of the > Big > Book. > > On a clear cold afternoon last January, the managing editor of the > Grapevine > and an editorial assistant drove up to the small town in Connecticut where > Felicia M. lives. We found her modest house on a quiet back lane. Several > big evergreens were in the front yard; in the backyard, a bird feeder hung > from a bare tree. Inside, her house was cozy. A whole row of cookbooks > filled a shelf over the kitchen door. The walls were hung with > pictures--western scenes with men and women on horseback, a painting by a > grandson, a large oil by a well-known abstract painter of the nineteen > fifties, and some watercolors by Felicia herself, who began painting > during > one period when she couldn't write (Felicia is a professional writer). The > three of us sat in Felicia's small book-lined living room, where the > winter > light filtered through the draperies, and Felicia served us coffee and > cookies as we talked about AA and her recovery from alcoholism. > > In her Big Book story, Felicia tells about the turbulent times of her > drinking: from her chauffeured "self-guided" tour of Europe's wine > countries > to being the down-and-out habitué of a Greenwich Village bar, where the > other customers took to moving their stools to avoid her. Drinking wasn't > a > pleasant experience for her; it was, she wrote, like getting a "tap on the > head with a small mallet." Felicia told us, "I had low self-esteem and > behaved accordingly--and so of course I got into trouble all the time." > Her > analyst was one of the earliest members of the psychiatric profession to > learn about Alcoholics Anonymous; Felicia explained, "Bill had addressed a > bunch of shrinks, you see, and my analyst heard him. She said to me, > 'You've > been coming here either drunk or hungover for a year. And I think these > people have something.'" The psychiatrist gave Felicia the Big Book to > read > and sent her to meet a man named "Mr. W." > > Bill W. suggested that Felicia meet Marty M., the first woman to get--and > stay--sober in AA. Marty became Felicia's sponsor: "She was my sponsor > until > the day she died. I still miss her very much." When Felicia was sober less > than a year, she wrote a short piece for the first issue of this magazine, > in June 1944 (she was then known as Felicia G.). Over the years, she wrote > a > number of articles for the Grapevine and worked for a time, without pay, > reading and editing manuscripts. During the 1970s, she was active on the > Grapevine's Editorial Advisory Board. > > Felicia has written both novels and nonfiction. She published several > novels > while she was still drinking, as recounted in the Big Book. She said, "Of > course I used to write when I was drunk--my writing was quite a mess. > Since > getting sober, I've written some things I'm not ashamed of." How did she > write her Big Book story? "I was down in Florida, and it just came out--I > didn't correct at all; it just poured out of me." > > "My life," Felicia said, "is so much better in sobriety. The main thing is > that I believe in God and I can appeal to him and I can get results." She > added, "If I hadn't stopped drinking, I'd be dead: if you had buried me > with > an acorn in my mouth, I'd have raised an oak tree by now." > > One of the benefits of Felicia's sobriety is that she and her family were > able to make amends. "The thing that I'm very happy about is that I was > able > to make friends with my mother before her death. We forgave each other. My > daughter and I didn't get along for quite a while but now we're really > good > friends--and I get on with my four grandchildren. I've gone out to Wyoming > to see them, and they've been back East. And this is all because of my > being > sober. I can look back six generations in my family and see only fighting > and hatred, and now it's stopped. I go back and pray for my fighting > antecedents! I think that's why I was put here--to put an end to the whole > business of discord in my family, to break the cycle." > > Are there any regrets? "I didn't marry the right man. I wasn't able to > live > a happy life in that way. I hope that in the next world, I can do it." > > The process of change hasn't stopped simply because Felicia has been sober > so long. She tries to go to a meeting a week, and she stopped smoking > "fairly recently." She still battles what she called in the Big Book "my > mortal enemy--the inner me." She said, "I've always had trouble with my > temper and with speaking out. I remember Bill had a room in the old Hell's > Kitchen clubhouse on Forty-Fifth Street, and one day over there I lost my > temper and I went for this woman--actually went for her. She started > crying > and Bill just comforted her and said nothing to me. I was very ashamed. > Oh! > I still remember it. I need the 'soft word that turneth away wrath.' I'm > still working on that. I'm trying to learn to be tolerant and > understanding > of those who differ with me." > > As we were preparing to leave, Felicia told us, "I don't know what more I > can say. I can only tell you the difference between then and now: I have a > belief in God. My life is happy." > > FELICIA M. > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com > 11:57:29 AM ET - 6/25/2006 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3513. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book Story Author Interview (2 of 4) From: Sally Brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/25/2006 7:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A Weird Story of Research About Felicia __________________________________ Many thanks to Bill Lash for sharing the interview of Felicia. I wish AAHistoryLovers had existed when Dave and I were researching and writing Marty Mann's biography! We never came across this interview. And if we'd even known Bill Lash's name, you can bet we'd have interviewed him. In fact, we had a lot of trouble locating information about Felicia. People kept telling us we should try to interview her, but no one could give us an address or even approximate location. We did find out that Felicia was related to the McCormick publishing family of Chicago. So, in 1998, fairly early in our national research, we were browsing through the McCormick Room of Chicago's main library, and I came across a book with a family tree pictured. To our great disappointment, Felicia was designated as having died some years previously. "Well, that's that," we thought. Later on, a biography of Cissy Patterson, Felicia's mother and also the famous publisher of the Washington Times, made us realize that Felicia's own daughter, Ellen, might have some stories about HER mother. But again, we had no idea where Ellen lived. However, Ellen had married into a Washington, DC legal family named Arnold. I vaguely recalled from a couple of years' living in Washington in the 1970s that a legal firm with the name "Arnold" in it was often in the Washington Post. "Maybe," I thought, "it's the same Arnold." On a whim, I called Washington Information, and asked, rather diffidently, if there was such a legal firm. To my surprise, the answer was immediately "Yes, and here's the number." Guess Washington Information gets more than one request for that number! When I rang the offices, I was promptly connected to a lovely, very accommodating and knowledgeable woman who knew all the partners. She didn't have Ellen's address in California, but she had the names and addresses of Ellen's three sons, Felicia's grandsons, in Wyoming. I randomly picked one, Joe Arnold, in Laramie, hoping he could lead me to his mother. Joe picked up the phone. I explained I was looking for his mother, Ellen, for some stories about Felicia - and how sorry I was that Felicia had died. Joe asked, "Would you like to speak with her?" I nearly passed out! Felicia hadn't died at all. She was residing in Laramie in a gracious retirement home with assisted living. Her grandsons, who adored her, had moved her there the previous year because she had become too frail to live on her own in the CT home Bill Lash described. That book in the McCormick Room was all wet! It was an important early lesson to us to check and double-check all our facts. For the rest of the story, see our web site below. We are forever grateful to Joe Arnold and his wife's wonderful hospitality on my whirlwind trip to Laramie. Through him, we did indeed connect by phone with Ellen, but she had no information about Felicia beyond what we already knew. Shalom - Sally Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous United Church of Christ www.sallyanddavidbrown.com 1470 Sand Hill Road, 309 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258 Email: rev.sally@att.net IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3514. . . . . . . . . . . . The first one hundred From: anders bystrom . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2006 8:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hiya group! Ive been searching an answer to my question in this gruop’s archives, but havent had any luck, so here goes... does anyone know where i can find the names of the first one hundred. Or if not - maybe how many of them were men and how many women? mucho love from Sweden! Anders [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3515. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The first one hundred From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2006 10:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are lots of lists out there regarding the so-called "first one-hundred" in AA. Many of these lists are lacking in accuracy, many leave out obvious names and some leave out certain segments of either NYC or the Akron/Cleveland area. There is no definitive first 100 list. Many long term members I've spoken with have told me that when Bill decided to make that magical number up, he not only included the spouses who also attended (at least in the Akron/Cleveland area) but he also embellished the truth by making it a nice round number. I guess it wouldn't sound quite impressive if Bill wrote 63 members and some of their spouses. (note: the 63 number was an arbitrary one and in no way should be taken as an actual count of members) Shakey Mike from Philly showed me a list of the "first" 200 something members and there were many glaring omissions from that list. I've seen other lists, Richard K. and others. None can be accurate. --- anders bystrom wrote: > Hiya group! > > Ive been searching an answer to my question in > this gruop’s archives, but havent had any luck, so > here goes... > > does anyone know where i can find the names of the > first one hundred. Or if not - maybe how many of > them were men and how many women? > > mucho love from Sweden! > Anders > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3516. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The first one hundred From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2006 10:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The list of 200 I gave to Mitchell K. was given to me by Harry the Wino,(dos 11/59) my sponsor. It is labeled the 1st 200 AA's. It only includes Bill W from NY and several others from the mid west. the rest are all from Ohio. So, it may be a list of the 1st 200 who were from the Akron, Cleveland and Columbus meetings. Fitz , Hank, Chrys, Bert T and Jimmy are not listed. Jimmy Burwell mentions that when the "first 100" was written by Bill that" there were 100 men and women coming and going, mainly going." Maybe Jimmy's history of AA is a better representation of How it Was, than was previously thought. Just because its listed in AA Conference approved literature doesn't make it necessarily so. As people get older their recollections of what and when get distorted and, as we all know, Bill W took poetic license to make a point. Yours in Service Shakey Mike G. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3517. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The first one hundred From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2006 2:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Anders, I do know that the names of the authors of the Big Book's first edition are bouncing around somewhere, and I'm sure somebody will send them. Of course there are not 100, although it's believed that at least this number could be called sober by the time the Book was published in April 1939. There was only one woman and she did not stay sober, although her story was pretty good and served its purpose. My wife and I are going to Kolding, Denmark, this week, where I'll be doing some AA sessions this Saturday, July 1st, at the request of Bent C. Do the Swedes ever visit the Danes? Please send me your Snail Mail address and I'll send you that Big Book list if I can find it. All the best, Mel ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "anders bystrom" To: Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:24 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The first one hundred Hiya group! Ive been searching an answer to my question in this gruop’s archives, but havent had any luck, so here goes... does anyone know where i can find the names of the first one hundred. Or if not - maybe how many of them were men and how many women? mucho love from Sweden! Anders [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________________ Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com 9:41:14 AM ET - 6/26/2006 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3518. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The first one hundred From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2006 2:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Folks, Mitch is right; there are no definitive lists of the first 100. But I do think it's safe to say that there might have been at least 100 by the time the Big Book came off the press. I went to my first AA meeting in California in early October, 1948, although I didn't start establishing continuous sobiety for another year and a half. The third member I met was a man named Eddie McCann who had moved out there from Akron. He had nine years by then. I was thrilled to find his name in that list of 200 which is floating around, though I don't have a copy. It listed him as living in a hotel in Akron. He was a very good AA in Ventura, Calif., and I've often wondered what happened to him. Mel Barger ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell K." To: Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] The first one hundred > There are lots of lists out there regarding the > so-called "first one-hundred" in AA. Many of these > lists are lacking in accuracy, many leave out obvious > names and some leave out certain segments of either > NYC or the Akron/Cleveland area. > > There is no definitive first 100 list. Many long term > members I've spoken with have told me that when Bill > decided to make that magical number up, he not only > included the spouses who also attended (at least in > the Akron/Cleveland area) but he also embellished the > truth by making it a nice round number. I guess it > wouldn't sound quite impressive if Bill wrote 63 > members and some of their spouses. (note: the 63 > number was an arbitrary one and in no way should be > taken as an actual count of members) > > Shakey Mike from Philly showed me a list of the > "first" 200 something members and there were many > glaring omissions from that list. I've seen other > lists, Richard K. and others. None can be accurate. > > > > --- anders bystrom wrote: > >> Hiya group! >> >> Ive been searching an answer to my question in >> this gruop’s archives, but havent had any luck, so >> here goes... >> >> does anyone know where i can find the names of the >> first one hundred. Or if not - maybe how many of >> them were men and how many women? >> >> mucho love from Sweden! >> Anders >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been >> removed] >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com > 12:36:16 PM ET - 6/26/2006 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3519. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The first one hundred From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/26/2006 7:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jim Burwell had indicated in "THE VICIOUS CYCLE" that the AA literature committee had a sum population of 60 at the time of the writing of the Big Book. That seems like a likely number. If Bill said 100 and Jim said 60, then that leaves 40 non-authors in surrounding areas (Youngstown, Detroit, Buffalo, New Jersey, etc.) pg 228 Around this time our big A.A. book was being written, and it all became much simpler; we had a definite formula that some sixty of us agreed was the middle course for all alcoholics who wanted sobriety, and that formula has not been changed one iota down through the years. I would be interested in the list of authors. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mel Barger To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] The first one hundred Hi Anders, I do know that the names of the authors of the Big Book's first edition are bouncing around somewhere, and I'm sure somebody will send them. Of course there are not 100, although it's believed that at least this number could be called sober by the time the Book was published in April 1939. There was only one woman and she did not stay sober, although her story was pretty good and served its purpose. My wife and I are going to Kolding, Denmark, this week, where I'll be doing some AA sessions this Saturday, July 1st, at the request of Bent C. Do the Swedes ever visit the Danes? Please send me your Snail Mail address and I'll send you that Big Book list if I can find it. All the best, Mel ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "anders bystrom" To: Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:24 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The first one hundred Hiya group! Ive been searching an answer to my question in this gruop’s archives, but havent had any luck, so here goes... does anyone know where i can find the names of the first one hundred. Or if not - maybe how many of them were men and how many women? mucho love from Sweden! Anders [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________________ Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com 9:41:14 AM ET - 6/26/2006 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3520. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby, Court and Judge Graves From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/27/2006 4:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a question, largely based upon reading Ebby: The Man Who Sponsored Bill W. by Mel B. The book indicates that Ebby appeared before Cebra's father, Judge Graves, and was told that he "was due back in Bennington for trial Monday morning" (p. 57). Was Judge Graves the same judge on Monday who "gave Ebby a lecture" and then released him to Rowland? I've searched through previous posts and haven't found an answer to this question. Chris Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3521. . . . . . . . . . . . Does anyone have information on a mr coxe- From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 6/28/2006 6:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Looking for information on a Mr. Coxe (in AA before 9/1940)his sponsor is referred to as only D. Is this possibly Capt Coxe 1938, April Capt. Coxe NY Unknown ... is a listing in AA chronology The Name is found in a big red. yours in service Shakey Mike G [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3522. . . . . . . . . . . . The Forgotten Steps From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/1/2006 9:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Which are The Forgotten Steps? I am told they are six and seven, but a search on the Grapevine's digital archives turns up an article from the June 1952 issue and it's on Steps Eight and Nine. I have seen reference to a pamphlet apparently out of print with that title and I understand it was on Steps Eight and Nine? Any help out there? Tommy H IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3523. . . . . . . . . . . . Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" From: sobermuse123@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/1/2006 10:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My Saturday Morning Meeting is an As Bill Sees It Group, and today, we read p. 118. The second paragraph on that page is attributed to a publication entitled "AA Today". Since I assume that ABSI uses information directly from the writing of Bill W. or from Conference published sources, I am wondering what sort of book or periodical "AA Today" is. I've not heard of it, and I am reasonably familiar with most AA literature... Anyone out there with information on this??? Many thanks, Jeanne M. dos 1-23-81 Concord, NH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3524. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" From: Jim B . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2006 11:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jeanne wrote . The second paragraph on that page is attributed to a publication entitled "AA Today". My copy is a 4th printing published in 1979. I don't know how many other printing there were after 1979. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3525. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2006 11:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA Today is a Grapevine book published in 1960 which contains many articles. It was presented at the 2nd International Convention in Long Beach, California. With an email I will send you a copy of the book cover. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3526. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" From: Jim B . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2006 11:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jeanne wrote The second paragraph on that page is attributed to a publication entitled "AA Today". Published in 1960, AA Today is a soft covered 111 page collection of articles to celebrate 25 years of AA. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3527. . . . . . . . . . . . As Bill Sees It: AA Today From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2006 4:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA Today was a special publication of the AA Grapevine commemorating the 25th Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous which first went on sale at the 1960 International Convention at Long Beach. My copy is the sixth printing from 1988. The booklet is 111 pp., 8 1/2 x 11, and contains, besides pieces by Bill and other members (only Bill's have a byline), remarks by Dr. Ruth Fox, Dr. Karl Menninger, E. M. Jellinek, Dr. Adele Streeseman, Dr. William Bauer, Father Ed Dowling, Reinhold Niebuhr, Harry Emerson Fosdick, Rev. Kenneth Naylor, Aldous Huxley, Warden Clinton Duffy, several public figures including Sen. Margaret Chase Smith, and Ivan Underwood. None of the pieces is very long, as might be expected from the fact that there are 43 contributions plus pages printing the 12 Steps and the 12 Traditions, all in 111 pages. -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3528. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2006 11:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA TODAY IS "A SPECIAL GRAPEVINE PUBLICATION" IT COMMEMORATES THE 25 TH ANNIVERSARY OF AA. IT WAS 1ST AVAILABLE IN 1960 IN LONG BEACH , CALIF. ADVANCE ORDERS SOLD OUT AND A 2ND PRINTING WAS ORDERED. IT SOLD OUT IN 1964.IT WAS THEN UNAVAILABLE.THE 1979 GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE APPROAVED A REPRINT PROJECT. NOTHING IN IT HAS CHANGED AND IT REFLECTS AA AS IT WAS IN 1990. YOURS IN SERVICE, SHAKEY MIKE GWIRTZ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3529. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Forgotten Steps From: Bruce A. Johanson . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2006 4:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Father Pfau (sp?) or Father John Does' Golden Books Steps six and seven: The forgotten steps. Bruce Johanson "The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell." _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hickcox Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 8:05 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Forgotten Steps Which are The Forgotten Steps? I am told they are six and seven, but a search on the Grapevine's digital archives turns up an article from the June 1952 issue and it's on Steps Eight and Nine. I have seen reference to a pamphlet apparently out of print with that title and I understand it was on Steps Eight and Nine? Any help out there? Tommy H __________ NOD32 1.1636 (20060701) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3530. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2006 10:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA Today was a special publication by The Grapevine, Inc. celebrating AA's 25th Anniversary. There were both a hard cover and soft bound edition. The original was published in 1960 and was available at the International in Long Beach, California. Copies are available for sale sometimes on eBay and from rare book dealers. > My Saturday Morning Meeting is an As Bill Sees It > Group, and today, we read > p. 118. The second paragraph on that page is > attributed to a publication > entitled "AA Today". Since I assume that ABSI uses > information directly from > the writing of Bill W. or from Conference published > sources, I am wondering > what sort of book or periodical "AA Today" is. > I've not heard of it, and I am > reasonably familiar with most AA literature... > > Anyone out there with information on this??? > > Many thanks, > > Jeanne M. > dos 1-23-81 > Concord, NH > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3531. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" From: Maria Hoffman . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/2/2006 11:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In answer to Jeannes' question of AA Today, Strangely enough I had exactly the same question, until I looked on my own library shelves!! In 1960 the AA Grapevine published AA today - A special publication by the AA Grapevine committee commemorating th e 25th Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is a wonderful collection of many delightful articles and pictures, by Bill W. and many of our Non Alcoholic friends. It is an 81/2 x 11 Aqua cloth covered hard back . Maria Hoffman - District 1 - Archives committ3eeSouth Florida ----- Original Message ----- From: sobermuse123@aol.com To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 2:41 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" My Saturday Morning Meeting is an As Bill Sees It Group, and today, we read p. 118. The second paragraph on that page is attributed to a publication entitled "AA Today". Since I assume that ABSI uses information directly from the writing of Bill W. or from Conference published sources, I am wondering what sort of book or periodical "AA Today" is. I've not heard of it, and I am reasonably familiar with most AA literature... Anyone out there with information on this??? Many thanks, Jeanne M. dos 1-23-81 Concord, NH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3532. . . . . . . . . . . . 30 Day Readings? From: Rick Clowater . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2006 1:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Have certainly never heard it here in the west of Ireland but perhaps some other members of the group have. Fiona My First Post How did the reading of the Big Book or 12 and 12 "FOR THIRTY DAYS" come about? Does anyone know the history of this and is it done worldwide? Appreciate anyone's thoughts, comments or even history of this. Rick (Ottawa, Canada) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3533. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2006 3:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Apropos, Aldous Huxley (contributor to "AA Today" is often quoted as opining that Bill W. was "the greatest social architect of (the 20th) century". But no-one has ever been able to tell me the original primary source of this quotation. Can you help? Go well, Laurie A. >From: Jim B >Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" >Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 11:14:35 -0400 > >Jeanne wrote >. The second paragraph on that page is attributed to a publication >entitled "AA Today". > >My copy is a 4th printing published in 1979. I don't know how many other >printing there were after 1979. >Jim > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3534. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2006 1:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I may be repeating myself, but my conclusion, after some searching, is that the original of that quote from Huxley appeared in Robert Thomsen's "Bill W., the first bio of Bill. Subsequent users cite it. Bob T. , I believe, quite consciously associated closely with Bill in the middle and late 60s with the idea of a book in mind, and his text gives plenty of evidence of drawing on conversations with Bill for source. It would have helped if RT had included some notes on his sources, but he was writing a "popular" rather than scholarly book so he evidently ruled that out. In the middle 60s practically the only ones really big on AA history were Bill himself, Nell Wing, and I'd say Lois, since I have always supposed she released the text of "My First 40 Years" to Hazelden, perhaps out of frustration that AAWS had not exactly rushed to press with it. Take all this lightly; just my impressions. Tom W. On Jul 3, 2006, at 2:09 AM, jenny andrews wrote: > Apropos, Aldous Huxley (contributor to "AA Today" is often quoted > as opining > that Bill W. was "the greatest social architect of (the 20th) > century". But > no-one has ever been able to tell me the original primary source of > this > quotation. Can you help? > Go well, > Laurie A. > > >> From: Jim B >> Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" >> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 11:14:35 -0400 >> >> Jeanne wrote >> . The second paragraph on that page is attributed to a publication >> entitled "AA Today". >> >> My copy is a 4th printing published in 1979. I don't know how many >> other >> printing there were after 1979. >> Jim >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3535. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 30 Day Readings? From: John Seibert . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/3/2006 4:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I've not heard of the thirty days concept, but my sponsor told me that if I read just two pages per day (Two sides of a single piece of paper.) I will read the entire first 164 pages in less than 90 days or four times per year. If you do this as I did for any period of time (14 years at this writing) You will become quite familiar with the "Basic Text" of our program. Service is Love, John S. Nashville TN _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Clowater Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 12:56 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 30 Day Readings? Have certainly never heard it here in the west of Ireland but perhaps some other members of the group have. Fiona My First Post How did the reading of the Big Book or 12 and 12 "FOR THIRTY DAYS" come about? Does anyone know the history of this and is it done worldwide? Appreciate anyone's thoughts, comments or even history of this. Rick (Ottawa, Canada) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3536. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2006 6:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII But that's not the primary source. Thomsen wrote: "Aldous Huxley had called Bill the greatest social architect of the 20th century..." But when did Huxley say or write it? Thomsen is simply quoting Huxley. Laurie A. (Jenny is my Al-Anon wife!) >From: Tom White >Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" >Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:44:16 -0500 > >I may be repeating myself, but my conclusion, after some searching, >is that the original of that quote from Huxley appeared in Robert >Thomsen's "Bill W., the first bio of Bill. Subsequent users cite it. >Bob T. , I believe, quite consciously associated closely with Bill in >the middle and late 60s with the idea of a book in mind, and his >text gives plenty of evidence of drawing on conversations with Bill >for source. It would have helped if RT had included some notes on his >sources, but he was writing a "popular" rather than scholarly book so >he evidently ruled that out. In the middle 60s practically the only >ones really big on AA history were Bill himself, Nell Wing, and I'd >say Lois, since I have always supposed she released the text of "My >First 40 Years" to Hazelden, perhaps out of frustration that AAWS had >not exactly rushed to press with it. Take all this lightly; just my >impressions. Tom W. > >On Jul 3, 2006, at 2:09 AM, jenny andrews wrote: > > > Apropos, Aldous Huxley (contributor to "AA Today" is often quoted > > as opining > > that Bill W. was "the greatest social architect of (the 20th) > > century". But > > no-one has ever been able to tell me the original primary source of > > this > > quotation. Can you help? > > Go well, > > Laurie A. > > > > > >> From: Jim B > >> Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > >> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" > >> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 11:14:35 -0400 > >> > >> Jeanne wrote > >> . The second paragraph on that page is attributed to a publication > >> entitled "AA Today". > >> > >> My copy is a 4th printing published in 1979. I don't know how many > >> other > >> printing there were after 1979. > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3537. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 30 Day Readings? From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2006 9:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A friend of mine from years ago told me that he had sponsees read a step out of the 12n12 everyday for 30 days before proceeding to the next step. He explained he learned this at chit chat (?) It was a rehab he went to in Pennsylvannia. I might be wrong about the name but that is his story where he picked it up. Does this sound famaliar to anyone? Wonder where these silly ideas come from? `````scratching my head````` Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: John Seibert To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 4:33 PM Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] 30 Day Readings? I've not heard of the thirty days concept, but my sponsor told me that if I read just two pages per day (Two sides of a single piece of paper.) I will read the entire first 164 pages in less than 90 days or four times per year. If you do this as I did for any period of time (14 years at this writing) You will become quite familiar with the "Basic Text" of our program. Service is Love, John S. Nashville TN _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Clowater Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 12:56 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 30 Day Readings? Have certainly never heard it here in the west of Ireland but perhaps some other members of the group have. Fiona My First Post How did the reading of the Big Book or 12 and 12 "FOR THIRTY DAYS" come about? Does anyone know the history of this and is it done worldwide? Appreciate anyone's thoughts, comments or even history of this. Rick (Ottawa, Canada) . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3539. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 30 Day Readings? From: Bruce A. Johanson . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2006 2:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The only 30 day reading I ever heard or read about was what Dr. Bob would often recommend his new guys or pigeons to read. He would have them read William Henry Drummonds " The Greatest Thing In The World" based on the Book of Corinthians dealing with love every day for 30 days. It fits quite nicely with the Absolute of Love. Bruce Johanson "The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell." _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Lawyer Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:09 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 30 Day Readings? A friend of mine from years ago told me that he had sponsees read a step out of the 12n12 everyday for 30 days before proceeding to the next step. He explained he learned this at chit chat (?) It was a rehab he went to in Pennsylvannia. I might be wrong about the name but that is his story where he picked it up. Does this sound famaliar to anyone? Wonder where these silly ideas come from? `````scratching my head````` Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: John Seibert To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 4:33 PM Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] 30 Day Readings? I've not heard of the thirty days concept, but my sponsor told me that if I read just two pages per day (Two sides of a single piece of paper.) I will read the entire first 164 pages in less than 90 days or four times per year. If you do this as I did for any period of time (14 years at this writing) You will become quite familiar with the "Basic Text" of our program. Service is Love, John S. Nashville TN _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Clowater Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 12:56 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 30 Day Readings? Have certainly never heard it here in the west of Ireland but perhaps some other members of the group have. Fiona My First Post How did the reading of the Big Book or 12 and 12 "FOR THIRTY DAYS" come about? Does anyone know the history of this and is it done worldwide? Appreciate anyone's thoughts, comments or even history of this. Rick (Ottawa, Canada) . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________ NOD32 1.1643 (20060704) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3540. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2006 4:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This was a thread here in 2003 and 2005 and at other times. Other than RT, I know of no one who has found a shred of evidence where Huxley wrote or said that remark. It has been quoted hundreds of times attributing Huxley with no documentation other than RT's book. It's kind of like the attribution of the Contempt Prior To Investigation quote to Spencer. Everyone quotes it but no one knew where it came from originally. > But that's not the primary source. Thomsen wrote: > "Aldous Huxley had called > Bill the greatest social architect of the 20th > century..." But when did > Huxley say or write it? Thomsen is simply quoting > Huxley. > Laurie A. (Jenny is my Al-Anon wife!) > > > >From: Tom White > >Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > >To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Page 118 - " As Bill > Sees It" > >Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:44:16 -0500 > > > >I may be repeating myself, but my conclusion, after > some searching, > >is that the original of that quote from Huxley > appeared in Robert > >Thomsen's "Bill W., the first bio of Bill. > Subsequent users cite it. > >Bob T. , I believe, quite consciously associated > closely with Bill in > >the middle and late 60s with the idea of a book in > mind, and his > >text gives plenty of evidence of drawing on > conversations with Bill > >for source. It would have helped if RT had included > some notes on his > >sources, but he was writing a "popular" rather than > scholarly book so > >he evidently ruled that out. In the middle 60s > practically the only > >ones really big on AA history were Bill himself, > Nell Wing, and I'd > >say Lois, since I have always supposed she released > the text of "My > >First 40 Years" to Hazelden, perhaps out of > frustration that AAWS had > >not exactly rushed to press with it. Take all this > lightly; just my > >impressions. Tom W. > > > >On Jul 3, 2006, at 2:09 AM, jenny andrews wrote: > > > > > Apropos, Aldous Huxley (contributor to "AA > Today" is often quoted > > > as opining > > > that Bill W. was "the greatest social architect > of (the 20th) > > > century". But > > > no-one has ever been able to tell me the > original primary source of > > > this > > > quotation. Can you help? > > > Go well, > > > Laurie A. > > > > > > > > >> From: Jim B > > >> Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > >> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > > >> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Page 118 - " As > Bill Sees It" > > >> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 11:14:35 -0400 > > >> > > >> Jeanne wrote > > >> . The second paragraph on that page is > attributed to a publication > > >> entitled "AA Today". > > >> > > >> My copy is a 4th printing published in 1979. I > don't know how many > > >> other > > >> printing there were after 1979. > > >> Jim > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3541. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 30 Day Readings? From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2006 4:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII That is quite possible. Chit Chat or Caron Foundation in Wernersville, PA still exists. Like most things now accepted as gospel in AA never originated in AA but in the treatment industry. The 90/90, 30 days, disease concept..... lots of non-AA topics and practices which are now part and parcel of AA. > A friend of mine from years ago told me that he had > sponsees read a step out of the 12n12 everyday for > 30 days before proceeding to the next step. He > explained he learned this at chit chat (?) It was a > rehab he went to in Pennsylvannia. I might be wrong > about the name but that is his story where he picked > it up. Does this sound famaliar to anyone? > > Wonder where these silly ideas come from? > `````scratching my head````` > > Jay > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Seibert > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 4:33 PM > Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] 30 Day Readings? > > > > I've not heard of the thirty days concept, but my > sponsor told me that if I > read just two pages per day (Two sides of a single > piece of paper.) I will > read the entire first 164 pages in less than 90 days > or four times per year. > If you do this as I did for any period of time (14 > years at this writing) > You will become quite familiar with the "Basic Text" > of our program. > > Service is Love, > > John S. > Nashville TN > > _____ > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Rick Clowater > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 12:56 PM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 30 Day Readings? > > Have certainly never heard it here in the west of > Ireland but perhaps some > other members of the group have. > > Fiona > > My First Post > > How did the reading of the Big Book or 12 and 12 "FOR > THIRTY DAYS" come about? > > Does anyone know the history of this and is it done > worldwide? > > Appreciate anyone's thoughts, comments or even > history of this. > > Rick (Ottawa, Canada) > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3542. . . . . . . . . . . . Hi all From: newnanight1963 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2006 4:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Opps this may be a repeat , sorry. I am new to this group and looking for some information. I am looking for a book, an autobiography that my stepdad wrote regarding his 40 years as a skid row wino. Title: One's Too Many and a Thousand's Not Enough Author: Frank Wallaston Year : 1979 Publisher (this may be a vanity publisher not sure) Libra I have managed to find this book in two libraries in Butte County California but can;t seem to be able to find a copy I can buy. I am newly sober (2 months) and know Franks book would add to my incentive in my new journey. Unfortunately Frank died(drunk and alone after 20 years sober) a couple years ago and I lost my copy of the book years ago ,,,if anyone can help I would be forever grateful. Thanks Tanya IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3543. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: My first forty years From: Bob Wilson . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/4/2006 5:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Art, Amazon has this one -- which I was not aware of till I looked. It's apparently by Bill. Bill W. : My First 40 Years - An Autobiography ISBN 1568383738 Here's another one I didn't know anything about, an "authorized biography": http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/amazon/books/alcohol-abuse/the-lois-wilson-sto ry-w\ hen-love-is-not-enough-the-authori-1592853285.html [7] Sorry if this info is way off the track. Best, Bob W. ----- Original Message ----- From: Art Boudreault To: AA History Lovers Cc: tomwhite@cableone.net Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] My first forty years Dear Tom, I am interested in learning about and obtaining this book. I was unaware of the book "My First 40 Years" by Lois. It is not mentioned in "Lois Remembers" or "First Steps, Al-Anon ... Thirty Five Years of Beginnings", both sold by Al-Anon's World Service Office. I did a search on Hazelden's book section and on http://used.addall.com/, a used book site, for this book. It is amazing how many titles there are with those words, but none about Lois. Can you let me know how to find such a book? I believe that Lois' memoirs were printed in "Lois Remembers" sold by Al-Anon's World Service Office. According to the person hired by Al-Anon to ghost-write the book for Lois, she wasn't allowed to write it for Lois. AA World Services paid for and hired the ghost writer. Sincerely, Art Boudreault artb@netwiz.net > 2b. Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" > Posted by: "Tom White" tomwhite@cableone.net > Date: Mon Jul 3, 2006 1:41 pm (PDT) > > I may be repeating myself, but my conclusion, after some searching, > is that the original of that quote from Huxley appeared in Robert > Thomsen's "Bill W., the first bio of Bill. Subsequent users cite it. > Bob T. , I believe, quite consciously associated closely with Bill in > the middle and late 60s with the idea of a book in mind, and his > text gives plenty of evidence of drawing on conversations with Bill > for source. It would have helped if RT had included some notes on his > sources, but he was writing a "popular" rather than scholarly book so > he evidently ruled that out. In the middle 60s practically the only > ones really big on AA history were Bill himself, Nell Wing, and I'd > say Lois, since I have always supposed she released the text of "My > First 40 Years" to Hazelden, perhaps out of frustration that AAWS had > not exactly rushed to press with it. Take all this lightly; just my > impressions. Tom W. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3544. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: My first forty years From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2006 11:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello AA History Lover Readers.... Please note that the Bourchert book noted below, "The Lois Wilson Story, When Love Is Not Enough" contains several factual errors. I know this because as a boy (1932-33) I lived in places spoken of in that book (e.g. Manchester, Vermont in the house owned by Lois's father...the Camp on Emerald Lake owned by Dr. Burnham... Burr and Burton Seminary where my mother was a classmate of Bill Wilson... etc. etc.) I am a native Vermonter. I have informed the Publisher, and Stepping Stones Foundation, of these inaccuracies and have been informed that corrections will be made in the next printing. If you are reading the First Printing, or the web site advertizing the book, be aware that there are many factual errors in the First printing and in the advertizing. I was very surprised to see so much poor research by an acclaimed auther (Bourchert) who also produced the movie "My Name Is Bill W". If anyone on this web wishes a copy of my findings, I'd be glad to share them with you if you send me your E-Mail address. All my best, Les Cole, Colorado Springs, CO elsietwo@msn.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Wilson Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] My first forty years Art, Amazon has this one -- which I was not aware of till I looked. It's apparently by Bill. Bill W. : My First 40 Years - An Autobiography ISBN 1568383738 Here's another one I didn't know anything about, an "authorized biography": http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/amazon/books/alcohol-abuse/the-lois-wilson-sto ry-w\ hen-love-is-not-enough-the-authori-1592853285.html [7] Sorry if this info is way off the track. Best, Bob W. ----- Original Message ----- From: Art Boudreault To: AA History Lovers Cc: tomwhite@cableone.net Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] My first forty years Dear Tom, I am interested in learning about and obtaining this book. I was unaware of the book "My First 40 Years" by Lois. It is not mentioned in "Lois Remembers" or "First Steps, Al-Anon ... Thirty Five Years of Beginnings", both sold by Al-Anon's World Service Office. I did a search on Hazelden's book section and on http://used.addall.com/, a used book site, for this book. It is amazing how many titles there are with those words, but none about Lois. Can you let me know how to find such a book? I believe that Lois' memoirs were printed in "Lois Remembers" sold by Al-Anon's World Service Office. According to the person hired by Al-Anon to ghost-write the book for Lois, she wasn't allowed to write it for Lois. AA World Services paid for and hired the ghost writer. Sincerely, Art Boudreault artb@netwiz.net > 2b. Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" > Posted by: "Tom White" tomwhite@cableone.net > Date: Mon Jul 3, 2006 1:41 pm (PDT) > > I may be repeating myself, but my conclusion, after some searching, > is that the original of that quote from Huxley appeared in Robert > Thomsen's "Bill W., the first bio of Bill. Subsequent users cite it. > Bob T. , I believe, quite consciously associated closely with Bill in > the middle and late 60s with the idea of a book in mind, and his > text gives plenty of evidence of drawing on conversations with Bill > for source. It would have helped if RT had included some notes on his > sources, but he was writing a "popular" rather than scholarly book so > he evidently ruled that out. In the middle 60s practically the only > ones really big on AA history were Bill himself, Nell Wing, and I'd > say Lois, since I have always supposed she released the text of "My > First 40 Years" to Hazelden, perhaps out of frustration that AAWS had > not exactly rushed to press with it. Take all this lightly; just my > impressions. Tom W. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3545. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: My first forty years From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2006 1:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Info off the Library of Congress website: LC Control No.: 99087571 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: W., Bill. Main Title: Bill W : my first 40 years. Variant Title: My first forty years Published/Created: Center City, Minn. : Hazelden, 2000. Description: xi, 219 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. ISBN: 1568383738 Notes: Transcribed from an audiotape made by Bill W. Includes bibliographical references. Subjects: W., Bill. Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholics--Biography. LC Classification: HV5032.W19 A3 2000 Dewey Class No.: 362.292/86/092 B 21 Quality Code: pcc CALL NUMBER: HV5032.W19 A3 2000 Copy 1 -- Request in: Jefferson or Adams Bldg General or Area Studies Reading Rms -- Status: Not Charged CALL NUMBER: HV5032.W19 A3 2000 FT MEADE Copy 2 -- Request in: Main or Science/Business Reading Rms - STORED OFFSITE -- Status: Not Charged --- This book is still available from the publisher, Hazelden, in softcover at: http://www.hazelden.org/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?a=banditem=8898 also from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1568383738/sr=8-1/qid=1152114402/ref=sr_1_1 /103\ -0857880-6268643?ie=UTF8 [8] --- This was one of FOUR biographies of Bill W published in the year 2000: My Search for Bill W. (by Mel B.) Bill W. (by Francis Hartigan) Bill W. and Mr. Wilson (by Matthew J. Raphael a pseudonym) Bill W., My First 40 Years, an Autobiography by the Co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous --- In checking group messages from that time, Nancy O remarked that this book is based on "autobiographical tapes Bill recorded in the 1950s" [msg#325 from AAHistoryBuffs archive] ... --- the Amazon site included the following review: Editorial Reviews From Library Journal "[I]n a hotel then known as Wilson House I was born, perhaps rightly, in a room just back of the old bar," writes Wilson (1895-1970), cofounder and organizer of Alcoholics Anonymous, in this first published edition of an autobiography he began in 1954. Telling one's story is an important AA tradition. Bill W., as Wilson was known in AA circles, had a reputation for being a good storyteller and had previously recounted much of his life in the Big Book (also titled Alcoholics Anonymous) and other writings. Here, Wilson tells of his childhood, military service, marriage, attempts to stop drinking, and spiritual conversion in 1934 but stops short of his historic meeting with cofounder Dr. Bob. The publisher has added articles, appendixes, and recollections of friends, family, and colleagues to flesh out Wilson's fragmented account. In contrast to Francis Hartigan's recent conventional but comprehensive biography, Bill W. (LJ 2/1/00), Bill W. and Mr. Wilson offers an outsider's "personal impressions and ruminations." Following Wilson's own three-part formula ("what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now"), Raphael, an AA member writing under a pseudonym, observes that "what [Bill W.] used to be like scarcely exists outside...the account he first gave in Alcoholics Anonymous and then repeated often." Raphael seeks to distinguish Bill W., cofounder of AA and the Twelve Steps, from Bill Wilson, who "closely guarded his private life during his public career, even as he seemed to bare his soul at AA meetings." Throughout his life, Wilson battled depression, smoked heavily, and had a reputation as a womanizer. Later in life, he participated in LSD research and promoted alternative therapies for alcoholism. As Raphael describes Wilson's life, he traces parallels in the evolution of AA from its origins in the Oxford Group, a religious lay movement, to a worldwide self-help organization of alcoholics helping alcoholics. Both books, while important contributions to the growing literature on Bill W., are supplementary purchases for collections on drug and alcohol abuse. General collections should acquire Hartigan's Bill W. -DLucille M. Boone, San Jose P.L., CA it also includes this customer review: This is the story of AA co-founder Bill Wilson's first forty years of life set forth in his own words recorded at the Hotel Bedford during September, 1954. He is assisted by Ed Bierstadt. The book is a wonderful compilation of anecdotes told in Bill's own words in an effort to shed light upon how his experiences led to his personality development which contributed to his fall into alcoholism. It is refreshing and free of controversial arguments found in some of the more recent biographies. The description of his spiritual experience once again by the man himself is very uplifting. The afterword and appendices nicely flesh out this historical account of this truly special man to whom so many owe their lives. --- It now is apparent why I haven't seen mention of this book in our other readings ... just a matter of it not being published till the year 2000. Then it was released at the same time as three other books about Bill and his life. Combine that with the choice to end before meeting Dr Bob and the start of AA and it just loses its appeal to too much of the AA audience. I wonder about the delay in publishing ... 46 years after recording the tape/s? Was it just another example of Bill trying to be humble, having it published 30 years after his death? Or did Bill get flashbacks to the days he was trying to sell the membership on the Traditions ... seeing too many letters inviting him to come tell about the white light experience and what's happened since but ... Did he just decide the members and groups would not be all that interested in an analysis of his childhood history and drunkalogs with nothing on his life after meeting Dr Bob? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3546. . . . . . . . . . . . Contempt Prior to Investigation From: John Keller . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2006 3:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Regarding the quote attributed to Herbert Spencer in the Big Book, I've come across some research on this quote by Michael St. George: http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/). In what looks to be a very thorough investigation, St. George concludes that the quote comes from William Paley rather than Spencer. John K. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3547. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Contempt Prior to Investigation From: Emmanuel . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2006 6:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the research that I did some time back, If I recall correctly, Herbert Spencer used the term in a Newspaper interveiw, of which he himself did not recall until reminded, I'm sure that he could have been quoting someone else when he said it, but it apparently does not appear in any of his writings Peace and Happy Days Emmanuel On 7/5/06, John Keller wrote: > > Regarding the quote attributed to Herbert Spencer in the Big Book, I've > come across some research on this quote by Michael St. George: > http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/). In what looks to be a very > thorough investigation, St. George concludes that the quote comes from > William Paley rather than Spencer. > > John K. > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- Peace and Happy Days Emmanuel S. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3548. . . . . . . . . . . . Huxley Quote From: Joe Adams . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2006 4:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII re: "the greatest social architect of the 20th century" I don't know if this helps, but the citation given at http://www.lewrockwell.com/white/white45.html#ref is "Bill W." by Robert Thomsen (Harper and Row, New York, 1975) page 340. Since Wilson and Huxley were contemporaries during Bill's involvement at Trabuco College, that it is a quote attributed to him but NOT from one of Huxley's books is not beyond the pale. While it may annoy later historians, I often say nice things about my friends. Sometimes to their face, sometimes behind their backs, sometimes after they are gone, sometimes in print. :o) -------- A closed mouth gathers no feet. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3549. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: My first forty years From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2006 5:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I mean no disrespect, but the term "autobiography" has a specific meaning in literature. It signifies that the biographical subject of the work had an active role in its development. There is no "apparently" about it. The book "Bill W My First 40 Years" originally was a series of tape recordings that began in September 1954 (by Bill W and Ed Bierstadt). The Foreword and first chapter of the book describe both the intent and time span for Bill's dictations. The material is a first-person testimonial by Bill that covers the time-span from Bill's childhood up to his leaving Towns Hospital for the last time and actively engaging in the Oxford Group in NYC. The contemporary Afterword and appendices of the book are a good read in their own right and contain some remarkable historical material as well as references to a number of historian authors who today actively engage in the AAHistoryLovers special interest group. The Foreword of "Bill W My First 40 Years" describes it as being the "backbone of the biography written by Robert Thomsen" titled "Bill W" which was first published in 1975. Thomsen's biography enjoys a distinction in that it was actively sold and circulated within AA by the GSO in NY until 1976 when the General Service Conference asked that the practice cease. If anyone knows, I'm curious to find out who the authority was that "authorized" the latest biography of Lois Wilson. I don't have a copy of it as yet but plan to get one. I too have not been able to find a written source for Huxley's "social architect" citation other than Thomsen's book. If anyone knows the written source it would be a very interesting find. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Wilson Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 4:35 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] My first forty years Art, Amazon has this one -- which I was not aware of till I looked. It's apparently by Bill. Bill W. : My First 40 Years - An Autobiography ISBN 1568383738 Here's another one I didn't know anything about, an "authorized biography": http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/amazon/books/alcohol-abuse/the-lois-wils on-story-when-love-is-not-enough-the-authori-1592853285.html Sorry if this info is way off the track. Best, Bob W. ----- Original Message ----- From: Art Boudreault To: AA History Lovers Cc: tomwhite@cableone.net Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] My first forty years Dear Tom, I am interested in learning about and obtaining this book. I was unaware of the book "My First 40 Years" by Lois. It is not mentioned in "Lois Remembers" or "First Steps, Al-Anon ... Thirty Five Years of Beginnings", both sold by Al-Anon's World Service Office. I did a search on Hazelden's book section and on http://used.addall.com/, a used book site, for this book. It is amazing how many titles there are with those words, but none about Lois. Can you let me know how to find such a book? I believe that Lois' memoirs were printed in "Lois Remembers" sold by Al-Anon's World Service Office. According to the person hired by Al-Anon to ghost-write the book for Lois, she wasn't allowed to write it for Lois. AA World Services paid for and hired the ghost writer. Sincerely, Art Boudreault artb@netwiz.net > 2b. Re: Page 118 - " As Bill Sees It" > Posted by: "Tom White" tomwhite@cableone.net > Date: Mon Jul 3, 2006 1:41 pm (PDT) > > I may be repeating myself, but my conclusion, after some searching, > is that the original of that quote from Huxley appeared in Robert > Thomsen's "Bill W., the first bio of Bill. Subsequent users cite it. > Bob T. , I believe, quite consciously associated closely with Bill in > the middle and late 60s with the idea of a book in mind, and his > text gives plenty of evidence of drawing on conversations with Bill > for source. It would have helped if RT had included some notes on his > sources, but he was writing a "popular" rather than scholarly book so > he evidently ruled that out. In the middle 60s practically the only > ones really big on AA history were Bill himself, Nell Wing, and I'd > say Lois, since I have always supposed she released the text of "My > First 40 Years" to Hazelden, perhaps out of frustration that AAWS had > not exactly rushed to press with it. Take all this lightly; just my > impressions. Tom W. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Great things are happening at Yahoo! Groups. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/TISQkA/hOaOAA/yQLSAA/219olB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3550. . . . . . . . . . . . tradition 5 From: george brown . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/5/2006 10:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII the 5th tradition says that each group "has a primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers." what is the meaning of "its" message? it sems that that term can imply that there is a message other than the one explained in tyher first half of the big book that each group can "carry'. --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3551. . . . . . . . . . . . Gnostics and agnostics From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2006 3:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi history lovers. Can anyone help us with the following query? Is there any significance in the word agnostic, does it have any relationship to the early Christian "gnostic" movements? We just wondered if Bill was reading this type of material before writing the Big Book chapter entitled "We Agnostics." tracy big book study england. ______________________________ From Glenn Chesnut: Tracy, The words gnostic and agnostic look a lot alike, but they refer to totally different things. ______________________________ The ancient Greek word "gnosis" meant "knowledge," and in ancient Greek, putting "a" in front of a word meant "not." So an agnostic is someone who "does not know" whether there is a God or not. What did Bill W. mean when he used that word? "Atheists" are people who are SURE that God does not exist. "Agnostics" on the other hand are people who are simply caught in doubt and confusion and skepticism about the whole issue: "Well it is possible that there could be a God, but I'm sure. Maybe God exists, maybe God doesn't exist. I just don't know one way or the other." Bill W. says at the beginning of that chapter that about half of their original AA fellowship were either atheists or agnostics. That is, they were either convinced that God did not exist, or were very skeptical about whether any kind of God existed. ______________________________ Modern scholars invented the word "gnostic" to refer to a variety of weird little religious cults that flourished in the Roman empire in the second and third centuries A.D. These cults mixed a little bit of Christian stuff in with a lot of mythological stuff. Gnostic systems always had at least two gods (a supreme Good God and a supreme Evil God), but most of them had additional gods and divine beings (dozens of them) in their mythological systems. The ancient gnostics believed that this physical universe (which is filled with pain and evil) was not created by the supreme Good God, but was created by a lesser god or goddess who was either evil or disobedient. In a lot of their systems, the physical universe (with all its pain and suffering and evil) was believed to have been created by an evil goddess named Sophia or Achamoth. In one way or another, all the little gnostic sects were composed of people who were pathologically obsessed with the problem of evil and suffering, and tried to solve that problem by having one or more evil gods and goddesses in their mythological systems in addition to the supreme good God. Since the physical universe was evil, anything connected with the human body or the material world was evil. Sex was evil, eating and enjoying food was evil. The forces of astrology (which were the work of the seven evil gods called the Seven Planetary Archons) determined everything that happened in the material world. These cults were very antisemitic, and regarded the Jewish God (the God of the Old Testament) as evil and malicious. Jews were therefore servants of the Powers of Evil, who were trying to keep all human beings imprisoned in this evil material world. These gnostic cults were also sometimes very antifeminist. The gnostic Gospel of Thomas, for example, worries about whether the Blessed Virgin Mary can obtain salvation, and finally says that maybe she can, but that women can only be saved if they become like men. In a lot of these gnostic cults, a divine figure called "Jesus" or "Christ" was sent here to earth by the supreme Good God (who was called the Unknown Father) to bring human beings the secret saving gnosis. But since anything material was evil, this kind of gnostic Jesus was a bodiless phantom, who only appeared to be born of Mary, and only appeared to eat and drink and sleep (so as not to alarm people), and only appeared to die on the cross. The Manichaeans (the biggest and most influential ancient gnostic cult) referred to this bodiless divine spirit as the Luminous Jesus. Modern scholars called them "gnostic" cults because all of them claimed to have some kind of secret "knowledge" that was not found in religious texts available to the general public (like the Old and New Testaments). If you joined the cult and learned their secret "knowledge," they told you that you would be freed from the forces of astrology and fate, and would be able to go to heaven when you died, instead of having to be reincarnated in another body here on earth, where you would have to go through yet another lifetime of pain and suffering. ______________________________ But nobody knew much about these gnostic systems in the 1930's, at the time when AA was being developed and the Big Book was being written. They were a curiosity known only to a very few scholars of ancient religions. Bill W. would not even have known what the word "gnostic" meant. The psychiatrist Carl Jung developed an interest in gnosticism at one point in his life, but this was AFTER he had worked with Rowland Hazard, so it had no effect on what he told Rowland or his theories about alcoholism at the only time that seriously mattered in early AA history. For Jung, the negativistic gnostic ideas which he discovered later on seemed to help make sense of a strange dream he had when he was a young man, when he saw God up in the heavens shitting on a church. Jung believed strongly that God had evil and destructive components within his being. ______________________________ Real knowledge about those ancient gnostic systems only began to develop during the 1960's, when a number of ancient gnostic documents (like the Gospel of Thomas) were dug up in Egypt at a place called Nag Hammadi. The Gospel of Judas, which got everybody all excited a month or two ago, was another of these gnostic religious documents. Part of the "secret knowledge" which the author of that work claimed to have, was that Judas Iscariot had been a good guy instead of a villain. There was another little gnostic sect, called the Ophites, which claimed that the Talking Snake in the story of Adam and Eve was the good guy who was trying to bring them the secret saving gnosis, while the God of the Old Testament was an evil God who only wanted to hold Adam and Eve prisoner in his wicked clutches. ______________________________ And in recent years, there have been folks in California have tried to revive the ancient gnostic religion, but the modern California variety really isn't the same thing as the ancient stuff. Most of the modern California "gnostics," for example, regard the goddess Sophia (or Achamoth) as a good deity. I have also never heard of any of the California gnostics saying that nobody can be saved who engages in sexual relations :-) ______________________________ But again, nobody in early AA knew anything about ancient gnosticism. It was NOT an influence on early AA in any kind of way. And the topic in the chapter of the Big Book called "We Agnostics" was people who came into the AA program who were either atheists who were sure that God did not exist, or agnostics who were skeptical about whether God existed and could not bring themselves to have any really strong faith in God and the power of God's grace. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator AAHistoryLovers IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3552. . . . . . . . . . . . The longshoreman and the moon rocket From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2006 3:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi history lovers. Can anyone help us with the following queries? Are there any pointers as to why the "longshoreman" was singled out in the chapter in the Big Book on "We Agnostics"? We were also wondering what the Sunday supplement was about at the time, and if there was any special significance as to why the longshoreman would so readily agree to a rocket being landed on the moon. any ideas anyone tracy big book study england. ______________________________ Big Book p. 52: "Show any longshoreman a Sunday supplement describing a proposal to explore the moon by means of a rocket and he will say, 'I bet they do it -- maybe not so long either.'" ______________________________ From the moderator: Tracy, A longshoreman was a man who worked at the docks in New York City, loading and unloading cargo ships. Bill W. chose a longshoreman for his example, because a longshoreman did unskilled physical labor, and presumably would not be some kind of high powered intellectual, but a man of simple common sense. And a longshoreman would also be assumed to be a rough and tough "man's man," and not some kind of person given to poetic fantasies. A lot of the major U.S. newspapers in those days had what was called a Sunday supplement in their Sunday morning editions. The rest of the newspaper (in those days) was printed in black and white. The Sunday supplement (which was stuck into the middle of the folded black and white newspaper) was printed and folded like a magazine, and was printed in full color instead of just black and white. When I was a child in Texas, my father was the art director of the Sunday supplement for the San Antonio Express newspaper. The Louisville Courier-Journal newspaper had its own Sunday supplement, and so did the Times Picayune newspaper in New Orleans, and so on. The New York Times newspaper had the biggest Sunday supplement of them all. During the latter part of the twentieth century a lot of big American newspapers shifted to using Parade magazine as their Sunday supplement, instead of printing their own local Sunday supplement, so a lot of our American members may not be fully aware of what they were. Modern rockets were born when a man named Robert Goddard received a grant from the Smithsonian Institution, and launched the world's first liquid-fueled rocket on March 16, 1926. From 1930 to 1935 he launched rockets that attained speeds of up to 550 miles an hour. Jules Verne had already written the science fiction novel "From the Earth to the Moon" in 1865, and H. G. Wells had written "First Men in the Moon" in 1901. The world's first science fiction movie was "Le Voyage dans la Lune" (A Trip to the Moon), which was produced in France in 1902. So in fact, by the time the Big Book was written, you did in fact have people speculating in popular literature about the possibility of human beings sending a rocket to the moon. People had already become aware that new technology could in theory allow human beings to do something that had never been done before. The point Bill Wilson was making in this section of the chapter to the agnostic was that, a lot of people had been skeptical about whether human beings could fly through the air at all, but then the Wright brothers built the first airplane, and now airplanes were flying all over the world. Modern human beings had begun to realize that you could not say that something was impossible simply because it had never been done before. But you had to have faith. The Wright brothers had to spend years of work, believing simply on faith that they could one day solve the secret of flight. There were people in 1939 who now had faith that rockets could be sent to the moon. It is interesting that Bill W. used that example, because here in 2006 we know that this too was not an ignorant or stupid faith. We were in fact eventually able to build rockets powerful enough to fly from the earth to the moon. I can remember seeing the first human beings landing on the moon on television while it was happening. Bill W.'s point was that "having faith" was NOT unscientific or superstitious or ignorant. On the contrary, all scientific advances began as acts of faith. The kind of faith which scientists had was an "informed faith," not a blind faith. But AA was not asking anyone to accept its program on the basis of a blind faith. Already by 1939, the AA program had had enough successes (hard objective scientific evidence) to show that its program could stop alcoholics from drinking. So Bill W. was saying to atheists and agnostics in effect, "yes, we are asking you to have faith in a higher power, but this is an informed faith, a scientific faith, based upon the evidence of all the stories in the Big Book which are case histories demonstrating that there is in fact a higher power which can and will save alcoholics from incarceration and death." But if you don't have faith enough even to TRY the program for yourself, then you as an alcoholic are certainly doomed. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3553. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: tradition 5 From: Charlene C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2006 3:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Charlene C., John Wilkelius, doclandis, and Shakey Mike: What does "its message" mean in the Fifth Tradition? From: "Charlene C." (ccp28para4 at yahoo.com) Being that this is the 5th tradition of AA, "its" message would be the message of AA. Any other message would make that group cease to be an AA group. ______________________________ From: "John Wikelius" (nov85_gr at graceba.net) STEP 12 HAVING HAD A SPIRITUAL AWAKENING, WE TRIED TO CARRY THIS MESSAGE ______________________________ From: doclandis@aol.com (doclandis at aol.com) My job is to continue to carry THE message of hope, and recovery, by living it, and by sharing my own personal experience. ______________________________ From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) The fifth tradition explains -- "better to do one thing supremely well," "just as firmly bound by obligation are the members of Alcoholics Anonymous, who have demonstrated that they can help the problem drinker as others seldom can." The tradition is very clear. "The only thing that matters is that he is an alcoholic who has found a key to sobriety." It furthered qualifies by saying "it is not strange that our society has concluded that it has but one high mission -- to carry the A. A. message to those who don't know there's a way out." It says the A. A. message not the B. B. message which is not the A. A. message. Yours in Service' Shakey Mike Gwirtz ______________________________ ORIGINAL MESSAGE dated 7/6/2006 from gbaa487@yahoo.com (gbaa487 at yahoo.com) The 5th tradition says that "Each group has but one primary purpose -- to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers." What is the meaning of "its" message? It sems that that term can imply that there is a message other than the one explained in the first half of the Big Book that each group can "carry." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3554. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gnostics and agnostics From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2006 2:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to the word's coiner, Darwin's pal T. H. Huxley, it does indeed have that relationship. Click here. Arkie ______________________________ From the moderator: Arkie, your "click here" internet reference did not come through, but it is true that a lot of people regard T. H. Huxley as the person who first coined the word agnostic to describe people who are skeptical about God's existence. See for example http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm The many internet references say that: "The expressions 'agnostic' and 'agnosticism' were applied by T. H. Huxley to sum up his deductions from (on that time) contemporary developments of metaphysics about the 'unconditioned' (Hamilton) and the 'unknowable' (Herbert Spencer). It is important, therefore, to discover Huxley's own views on the matter. Though Huxley began to use the term 'agnostic' in 1869, his opinions had taken shape some time before that date." And Huxley is quoted as saying at one point: "I invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of 'agnostic.' It came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the 'gnostic' of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant. To my great satisfaction the term took." ______________________________ Arkie, This actually supports the point I was trying to make. Bill Wilson in the 1930's would either have read or known about famous modern agnostics like Charles Darwin, Thomas H. Huxley, and Robert G. Ingersoll. It is clear from the chapter to the agnostic that he knew all the standard arguments against the existence of God which had been developed by these modern atheists and agnostics. But even if he had read that very passage in Huxley which is quoted above, all he would have learned from that passage is that there were people back at some point in Church history called gnostics "who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant." And that Huxley had coined the new word, because if a gnostic was someone who "knows" then an agnostic is someone who "does not know." That would still indicate no knowledge whatsoever on Bill Wilson's part about the detailed doctrines of ancient gnosticism. The question that was asked was, can we learn anything about Bill W.'s chapter to the agnostics by studying those weird ancient second and third century gnostic cults, and the answer to that is no. Likewise, we cannot learn anything about the chapter to the agnostics (as it appeared in the Big Book in 1939) from reading web sites posted by California "gnostics" from the 1990's and afterwards. If people want to know more about the historical background of the chapter to the agnostic in the Big Book, they should read about modern thinkers like Charles Darwin, Thomas H. Huxley, and Robert G. Ingersoll who were working very hard to destroy any kind of faith in the God of the Bible in the western world during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Those were the people whom Bill W. was attacking and arguing against. It was the biggest spiritual issue of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. Everybody in the U.S. was affected by this debate. Does God exist or is he simply a superstitious myth from the ignorant past? Is the Bible true or is the Bible nothing but another pack of myths? Just about everybody in the U.S. was involved in these debates at some level during the 1920's and 1930's, and had strong opinions on the subject. Think of the famous Scopes Monkey Trial which was held in 1925, only ten years before Bill W. met Dr. Bob for the first time, a kind of media circus which pitted the Protestant Christian fundamentalists against the biologists (who were regarded as atheists and agnostics) and their belief that human beings were descended from apes. That is the context in which Bill W. was writing the chapter to the agnostic. It is not only useless to start reading about ancient second and third century gnostic cults in the attempt to understand Bill W.'s chapter to the agnostic, it will hopelessly confuse you. If you want to understand a thinker from some past era (like Bill Wilson in the 1930's), start with the obvious. Sitting here in my study in South Bend, Indiana, if I hear hoof beats thundering past my window, I suppose I could say, "Here come the zebras." And I could argue for hours that it was POSSIBLE that this had been the sound of zebras galloping through my yard. But the obvious place to begin is to start by seeing whether it was horses, cattle, or even deer running through my yard (because wild deer do sometimes get confused and come up the St. Joe river bottom and get lost in town for a while before they can find their way back out). But start with the obvious. Don't start looking for zebras until you've first investigated the simplest and most likely explanation. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3555. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Contempt Prior to Investigation From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/7/2006 3:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It would be helpful to use the search feature available at Yahoo.com to peruse the archive of past postings. Please refer to message 2824 at url http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/. You can also simply do a search on the string "Spencer" to review past postings (there are quite a few). Message 2824 contains a link to http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/ and a remarkable academic tour de force by Michael StGeorge. His paper was published in March 2005 and concludes (authoritatively in my judgment) that the "contempt prior to investigation" quotation should be attributed to William Paley and not Herbert Spencer. A little background on how the erroneous attribution found its way into the Big Book: The member who introduced the attribution to the Big Book was Ray C. His Big Book story is "An Artist's Concept" and he began his story using a quotation that he mistakenly believed came from Herbert Spencer. The quotation said: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Ray said the quotation was descriptive of the mental attitudes of many alcoholics when the subject of religion, as a cure, is first brought to their attention. He said "It is only when a man has tried everything else, when in utter desperation and terrific need he turns to something bigger than himself, that he gets a glimpse of the way out. It is then that contempt is replaced by hope and hope by fulfillment" (re brief biography of Ray C by Nancy O for more detail). Ray, a recognized artist, was asked to design the dust jacket for the 1st edition Big Book. He submitted various designs for consideration including one in an Art Deco style. The dust jacket chosen for the 1st edition was red and yellow with the words "Alcoholics Anonymous" printed across the top in large white script. It became known as the "circus color" dust jacket because of its loud colors. The unused Art Deco dust jacket is in the Stepping Stones Foundation archives. Ray C's story was not included in the 2nd edition Big Book. However, the quotation, erroneously attributed to Herbert Spencer, was added to Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" in the 1st printing of the 2nd edition Big Book in 1955. The background for the quotation appearing in the appendix is also interesting. In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps." Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience" was added to the 1st edition Big Book in its 2nd printing. This was done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called the "educational variety" (note: this is yet another attribution that cannot be verified by a written work where James actually used the specific term "educational variety"). The so-called "Herbert Spencer quote" was added to Appendix II in the publication of the 2nd edition Big Book in 1955. It is not an accurate attribution. No written work by Spencer contains the quote. Current research attributes the quote to the English clergyman, author and college lecturer by the name of William Paley who lived from 1743 to 1805. Paley trained for the Anglican priesthood and was appointed a fellow and tutor of his college in 1766 and rose through the ranks of the Anglican Church. Paley wrote several books on philosophy and Christianity, which proved extremely influential. His 1794 book "A View of the Evidence of Christianity" was required reading at Cambridge University until the 20th century. Herbert Spencer (who lived from 1820 to 1903) was a great rival of his fellow Englishman Charles Darwin who is credited with the theory of evolution. It was Spencer, not Darwin, who popularized the term "evolution" and it was also Spencer who coined the term, "survival of the fittest." Spencer, however, did not author the quotation attributed to him in the Big Book. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3556. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Contempt Prior to Investigation From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/6/2006 12:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Re the Herbert Spencer quote, it is also thought by some that he, ironically, died of alcohol-related causes.... Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3557. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Hi all (Frank W. autobiography) From: Marsha Finley . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2005 8:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Tanya! I found that line ["one's too many and a thousand's not enough"] used in an old Ray Milland film ... "The Lost Weekend" so I may have to watch that movie! I have had excellent results searching for rate books at Abe Books. http://forums.abebooks.com/ They also have a bulletin board called book sleuth that has readers from around the world. http://forums.abebooks.com/abesleuthcom Maybe that will help. I wish you great success in your quest!! Marsha ______________________________________ Message #3542 from "newnanight1963" (tandie02 at gmail.com) Oops this may be a repeat , sorry. I am new to this group and looking for some information. I am looking for a book, an autobiography that my stepdad wrote regarding his 40 years as a skid row wino. Title: One's Too Many and a Thousand's Not Enough Author: Frank Wallaston Year : 1979 Publisher (this may be a vanity publisher not sure) Libra I have managed to find this book in two libraries in Butte County California but can;t seem to be able to find a copy I can buy. I am newly sober (2 months) and know Franks book would add to my incentive in my new journey. Unfortunately Frank died (drunk and alone after 20 years sober) a couple years ago and I lost my copy of the book years ago ... if anyone can help I would be forever grateful. Thanks Tanya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3558. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant July Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2006 11:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sorry To all for being late with this Monthly Post.... July 1939 - Warren C. joined A.A. Cleveland, caused debate because he was not hospitalized. July 1944 - Bob writes article for Grapevine "On Cultivating Tolerance". July 1962 - 'Victor E' cartoon first appeared in Grapevine. (somes say May 1962). July 1-3, 1960 - 25th Anniversary of AA in Long Beach, CA. July 2-3, 1955 - 20th Anniversary Convention at St. Louis, MO. The Three Legacies, of Recovery, Unity, and Service, turned over to the movement by the old timers. AA comes of Age. July 2, 1960 - Father Ed Dowling dies. July 2, 1965 - "Best of Bill" and Pocket-Sized "12 and 12" 1st sold. July 2, 1965 - 1st "La Vigne", Canadian Grapevine, published. July 2-4, 1965 - 30th Anniversary of AA in Toronto. Adopted "I Am Responsible." July 2, 1993 - 50 years of AA celebrated in Canada. July 2, 2000 - 20 millionth copy of Big Book given to Al-Anon in Minneapolis, MN. July 3-5, 1970 - 35th Anniversary of AA in Miami. "Declaration of Unity". Bill's last public appearance. July 3-6, 1980 - 45th Anniversary of AA in New Orleans. First true marathon meeting was held. July 3-6, 1980 - Gay AA's have own program at 40th AA Anniversary in New Orleans. July 4, 1939 - 1st AA meeting started in Flatbush, NY. July 4-6, 1975 - 40th Anniversary of AA in Denver. Worlds largest coffee server serves 1/2 million cups a day. July 5-7, 1985 - 50th AA Anniversary in Montreal, Canada. Ruth Hock given 5,000,000th Big Book. House of Seagrams flew their flags at half mast for 3 days. July 5-8, 1990 - 55th AA Anniversary in Seattle, WA. Nell Wing given 10,000,000th Big Book. July 7, 1940 - Bill attends 1st Summer Session at School of Alcohol Studies at Yale University. July 8, 1940 - 1st AA Group formed in Dayton, Ohio. July 10, 1941 - Texas newspaper publishes anonymous letter from founding member of Texas AA Group. (Larry J) July 11, 1960 - Time published article called "Passionately Anonymous" on the 25th Convention. July 14, 1939 - Dr Tiebout gives Big Book to Marty M. who promptly throws it back at him. July 15 1938 - 1st documented use name Alcoholics Anonymous, A.A. archives letter Bill to Willard Richardson. July 16, 1965 - Frank Amos, AA Non-Alcoholic Trustee, dies. July 18 1938 - in letter to Dr. Richards at Johns Hopkins, Bill used Alcoholics Anonymous as working title for Big Book and name for the fellowship. July 20, 1941 - First AA group formed in Seattle, Washington. July 22, 1877 - Willian Duncan Silkworth born in Brooklyn, NY. July 22, 1980 - Marty M. early AA woman and founder of NCADD dies. July 23, 1940 - Philly AA's send 10% of kitty to Alcoholic Foundation, sets precedent. July 23, 1943 - New Haven CT Register reports arrival of AA's to study with E M Jellinek. July 24, 1943 - L.A. press reports formation of all-Mexican AA Group. July 28-30, 1950 - First AA International Convention held in Cleveland, Ohio. Twelve Traditions adopted. Dr. Bob made last appearance at large AA gathering. July 31, 1972 - Rollie H dies sober in Washington DC. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3559. . . . . . . . . . . . Joe and Charlie Big Book studies on DVD? From: dobbo101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/9/2006 6:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone out there help me find where I can get the Joe and Charlie Big Book studies on DVD? I'm told one of them is no longer with us, so any or either will do. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3560. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gnostics and agnostics From: Bob Wilson . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/8/2006 5:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The gnos- root is just the Indo-european root for "to know." Cognate with English know and Russian znat' etc... So "agnostic" just means "not known." The Gnostics have their name from the same Greek root but one doesn't derive from the other. Bob Wilson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3561. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Inacuracies in the Lois Wilson Book From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2006 3:11:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Les, Re: "Hello AA History Lover Readers.... Please note that the Bourchert book noted below, "The Lois Wilson Story, When Love Is Not Enough" contains several factual errors." Thank you for your service. One correction though. Page 196 top: "John Henry Fitzhugh Murphy from Cumberstone(emphasis added), Maryland..." The name should be John Henry Fitzhugh Mayo and he is from a town called Cumberstone, Md. Sally M.. who is Jimmy Burwell's niece, remembers Bill and Lois visiting Fitz and Elizabeth Mayo. They lived on her fathers property in a cinderblock house. Fitz was her father's best friend. Elizabeth was ill and Lois would visit and take care of her. One such visit was while Bill was writing the "Big Book." He did not write the book there, but may have written notes on the book. I recently visited the area and gave a 1-1/2 hour presentation (re Jimmy and Fitz) at Christ Episcopal Church in Owensville, Maryland, where Jimmy B. and Fitz M. are buried. Fitz's father was at one time the pastor of the church. The local district had an Archives presentation and about 200 people attended. (District 6, Area 29, on Saturday 5/13/06 in Owensville,Md.) It was a swell affair and the AA members there treated us all just like family. Al W. of the Maryland Archives spoke on "The history of Maryland A.A. and Web Research." His site is the West Baltimore group: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/ http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/HistoryPage.htm http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Info.htm http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3562. . . . . . . . . . . . "Little Red Riding Hoods" in early AA meetings? From: archie . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/10/2006 11:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Looking for an explanation of the term "Red Riding Hoods" as used in the text below. It came from the book "Slaying the Dragon" by William L. White on page 135, paragraph 1, lines 20 to 28. There were also tensions regarding the proper relationship between A.A. and the informal club houses that were springing up around the organization. An early report on an A.A. Clubhouse in San Francisco made note of the strain from "over-crowding at meetings" and the problem of "drunks, panhandlers, wolves, and Red Riding Hoods upsetting the meetings." All of these situations reflected A.A.'s growing pains. Thank you very much for any information you offer. A.S.A.P. Always Say A Prayer IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3563. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Gnostics and agnostics From: Arkie Koehl . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2006 4:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I gnew that all along :-) Arkie On Jul 8, 2006, at 11:59, Bob Wilson wrote: > The gnos- root is just the Indo-european root for "to know." > Cognate with English know and Russian znat' etc... So "agnostic" > just means "not known." The Gnostics have their name from the same > Greek root but one doesn't derive from the other. > > Bob Wilson IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3564. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant July Dates in A.A. History From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2006 4:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 22:31 7/8/2006 , chesbayman56 wrote: >July 1962 - 'Victor E' cartoon first appeared in Grapevine. (somes say May 1962).< I did a search on A.A. Grapevine's digital archives for "1962 Victor E" and the first cartoon shown was the September issue, Volume 19, Issue 4. There were also cartoons for the October, November, and December issues from 1962. A search for "Victor E" without a date yields as the September 1962 issue as first cartoon of Victor. These archives are a wonderful source. There is a charge but it is minimal compared to the value of what you are able to access. YMMV, Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3565. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant July Dates in A.A. History From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2006 12:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Regarding July 7, 1940 - Bill attends 1st Summer Session at School of Alcohol. According to information I found, the Summer School of Alcohol Studies was first held in 1943. http://alcoholstudies.rutgers.edu/education/sadsinfo.html "The School of Alcohol and Drug Studies was founded at Yale University in 1943 as the Summer School of Alcohol Studies and moved to Rutgers University in 1962. E.M. Jellinek, Sc.D., was the school's first director. Howard W. Haggard wrote that the school was undertaken "as an experiment in social education" to make the findings of scientific research applicable to the actual problems of alcohol in the community. The first school had as its main courses of study physiological aspects, alcohol and traffic, personality and constitution, statistics, social measures, legislative control, prevention of alcoholism and treatment of alcoholism. The 2004 School of Alcohol and Drug Studies will be the sixty-first annual session. The director of the school is Gail Gleason Milgram, Ed.D." --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "chesbayman56" wrote: > > July 7, 1940 - Bill attends 1st Summer Session at School of Alcohol Studies at Yale University. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3566. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Joe and Charlie Big Book studies on DVD? From: George B . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2006 12:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII dobbo101@yahoo.com (dobbo101 at yahoo.com) wrote: "Can anyone out there help me find where I can get the Joe and Charlie Big Book studies on DVD? I'm told one of them is no longer with us, so any or either will do." They can be downloaded here: http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=fileandid=150 This is not with Joe McQ. Charlie and Joe will be in Chicago this weekend. July 14th thru 16th. ______________________________ From: Jim Burns (khanti1008 at yahoo.com) Joe and Charlie are still doing " The Big Book Comes Alive." Joe number #1 no longer participates due to health reasons. Joe #2 has been an awesome replacement for 10 years. My group is going to a " Big Book Comes Alive" Sept 9th and Sept 10 in Indio, California. Write me off-list at guitarstring1008@yahoo.com (guitarstring1008 at yahoo.com) and I will send you a flyer. In service, Jim California ______________________________ From: (kilroy at ceoexpress.com) Here is a web site where you can listen to the entire Big Book Study, and much more. They really help to get me up and running in the beginning. I hope they do the same for you. http://www.ppgaadallas.org/aa_speakers.htm Kilroy W. 4021 Club Philadelphia PA ______________________________ From: > (rfuhrman1011 at comcast.net) Joe and Charlie are both living. In fact in the next month or so they will be doing a Big Book study in LA. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3567. . . . . . . . . . . . Chapter called "The Lone Endeavor" in 1st Ed.1st Printing From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/11/2006 12:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was getting some information together to send to Mel B. who should be arriving home from Europe today, and came across some information that Harry the Wino(my sponsor) sent to me from his archives. It is a list of AA members sober between June 1935 to February 1939 in Akron and New York. This particular list was highlighted with comments from Sybil Corwin and states" Ruth Hock wrote(the) chapter callrd The lone Endeavor in first edition! Just before book went to print based on phone calls and letters from Pat from Los Angeles. She told us so on her last trip to Los Angeles in recent years." THIS IS SIGNIFICANT.This credits a non-alcoholic as writing a chapter in the Big Book. On the back of the list Sybil also writes" Footnote:Aug 16,1984 Pat Cooper landed drunk in Los Angeles April 19,1941-and my brother Tex Adams and I called on him at Johnny Millers sanitarium on or near Alvarado and Olympic Blvd. He did not stay sober. (signed)Sybil Corwin. The chapter was removed from the 2nd printing I believe. This signed and dated notation by Sybil identifies Ruth Hock as a writer in the 1st Big Book. Tex Adams started the 2nd AA group in LA, Ca. called "the Hole in The Wall Group" I'm on the East coast, and am not familiar with the Johnny Miller Sanitarium-Any Info? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3568. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Little Red Riding Hoods" in early AA meetings? From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2006 8:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "archie" wrote: > > Looking for an explanation of the term "Red Riding > Hoods" as used in the text below. It came from the > book "Slaying the Dragon" by William L. White on > page 135, paragraph 1, lines 20 to 28. > > There were also tensions regarding the proper relationship > between A.A. and the informal club houses that were > springing up around the organization. An early report > on an A.A. Clubhouse in San Francisco made note of the strain > from "over-crowding at meetings" and the problem of "drunks, > panhandlers, wolves, and Red Riding Hoods upsetting the > meetings." All of these situations reflected A.A.'s growing > pains. > It might be a reference to women whose vulnerability is a little more calcuated than genuine. I have a vague recollection of someone who looks at children's stories through a psychoanalytic lens remarking on the oddity of the setup in Red Riding Hood. Who would send a lone, small child into wolf-infested woods? Either her mother exposed her to danger deliberately, or RRH is not as innocent as she appears. Cora _________________________________ Note from Glenn C. (moderator): Cora, this was Eric Berne, in his book "What Do You Say After You Say Hello?" It's a brilliant book. He argues that fairy tales and other childhood literary motifs often offer good metaphors for describing the psychological games that adults play, and the "life scripts" (an idea that he developed) which shape the course of our lives. E.g., some people use a disability to play "Little Lame Prince" all their lives, taking a real disability which they have, but using it as a phony excuse for avoiding responsibility in all sorts of other areas where it is not relevant. Alcoholics sometimes play this game with their alcoholism. In parts of this book, and also in parts of Berne's "Games People Play," he describes women who play "vulnerable" and "helpless," as you describe, while simultaneously pretending to show sexual availability in a flirtatious manner, in order to manipulate men into doing the things they want. In the context of Bill W.'s remarks, I suspect that a "Little Red Riding Hood" was a woman who came into AA meetings talking about all the "big bad wolves" who had abused her, and batting her eyelashes at one of the men in the meeting, in an attempt to convince him that he was "a bold woodsman" who would step in and play hero and "save her" from all the big bad wolves. There are sufficient male alcoholics who are dumb enough to fall for that con game, to enable a Little Red Riding Hood to get into numerous sick relationships within AA. It was Eric Berne, as far as I can tell, who basically developed the idea of "rescuing" and "enabling" behavior as a kind of psychological con game which some people play, and he pointed out that alcoholics in particular are experts at playing that particular psychological con game. So a "Little Red Riding Hood" is a woman who is looking for a man who will play Rescuer and Enabler, in the way in which Bill W. seems to have been using the metaphor. The idea of "codependent behavior" was a development based on Berne's original ideas about Persecutor-Victim-Rescuer con games, which came along a decade or so later. I think Berne's original language is much more precise and much more useful than the somewhat amorphous concept of codependency, which attempts to include far too many different kinds of psychological game playing. But that's just me. Tom P. (below) talks about the flip side of the Little Red Riding Hood game, namely men who try to chat up women newcomers to AA, and convince them that they are the big bold heroic woodsmen who will "protect" them from the wolves and "carry their basket of goodies for them." _________________________________ From: "Tom P." (tomper99@yahoo.com) Archie: From message 50 on this site and a tape of Bill W. talk in Chicago in 1951: "There were people, believe it or not whose morals were bad and the respectable alcoholics of that time shook their heads and said, "Surely these immoral people are going to render us asunder." Little Red Riding Hood and the bad wolves began to abound. Ah, yes, could our society last?" Seems Bill W. was talking about the fear generated in some that others would cause the end of AA. I like James Thurber's rendition of "Little Red Riding Hood" where she recognizes the Big Bad Wolf in Grandma's bed and takes her automatic out of her basket and shoots him dead. Moral of the story: "It is not so easy to fool little girls nowadays as it used to be." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3569. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Inacuracies in the Lois Wilson Book From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2006 12:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good looking out. But speaking of inaccuracies, if I'm not mistaken and I don't think I am, Sally M. is the sister of Fitz M. not Jimmy B. I went to that workshop at the church about 6 or 7 years ago and she told the story. Kilroy W. 4021 Club Philadelphia PA --- Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote: From: Shakey1aa@aol.com To: elsietwo@msn.com Cc: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Inacuracies in the Lois Wilson Book Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 07:11:57 EDT Dear Les, Re: "Hello AA History Lover Readers.... Please note that the Bourchert book noted below, "The Lois Wilson Story, When Love Is Not Enough" contains several factual errors." Thank you for your service. One correction though. Page 196 top: "John Henry Fitzhugh Murphy from Cumberstone(emphasis added), Maryland..." The name should be John Henry Fitzhugh Mayo and he is from a town called Cumberstone, Md. Sally M.. who is Jimmy Burwell's niece, remembers Bill and Lois visiting Fitz and Elizabeth Mayo. They lived on her fathers property in a cinderblock house. Fitz was her father's best friend. Elizabeth was ill and Lois would visit and take care of her. One such visit was while Bill was writing the "Big Book." He did not write the book there, but may have written notes on the book. I recently visited the area and gave a 1-1/2 hour presentation (re Jimmy and Fitz) at Christ Episcopal Church in Owensville, Maryland, where Jimmy B. and Fitz M. are buried. Fitz's father was at one time the pastor of the church. The local district had an Archives presentation and about 200 people attended. (District 6, Area 29, on Saturday 5/13/06 in Owensville,Md.) It was a swell affair and the AA members there treated us all just like family. Al W. of the Maryland Archives spoke on "The history of Maryland A.A. and Web Research." His site is the West Baltimore group: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/ http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/HistoryPage.htm http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Info.htm http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links _____________________________________________________________ A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3570. . . . . . . . . . . . Canada AA From: Paul . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2006 5:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII July 2, 1993 - 50 years of AA celebrated in Canada. July 2-4, 1965 - 30th Anniversary of AA in Toronto. Adopted "I Am Responsible." July 5-7, 1985 - 50th AA Anniversary in Montreal, Canada. Using the dates from this wonderful group I thought that Canada and the USA used the same starting dates for AA. Now I see that they celebrated 50 years of AA in 1993 making their AA date 1943. Now if this is the case then why do we have AA anniversaries in Canada celebrating 1935? Thanks Paul IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3571. . . . . . . . . . . . CROSS-TALK From: lynnaw1979 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2006 10:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Looking for information on cross-talk within the AA meeting context. How did we come up with it? When? How? Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3572. . . . . . . . . . . . 90 meetings in 90 days From: anders bystrom . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2006 10:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hiya group! The saying "90 meetings in 90 days" is pretty common in AA in Sweden. I recall that i once heard on a speaker tape that this saying was "invented" Cleaveland AA in the 50’s where they had some sort of "contract" with the Salvation army, that if they took drunks to 90 meetings the Salvation army would let the person stay at the shelter for 90 days. Does anyone have any info around this? Love Anders IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3573. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ebby, Court and Judge Graves From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/13/2006 7:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Chris, Thanks for your email to the group about Judge Graves. Yes, he was the same judge who released Ebby to Rowland. Apparently Cebra and his father (the judge) had a stormy relationship at times, but it does appear that Judge Graves wanted to help alcoholics and did give Ebby a break. Cebra eventually moved to France. Mel FROM Mel Barger at melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: "ckbudnick" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:39 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Ebby, Court and Judge Graves >I have a question, largely based upon reading Ebby: The Man Who > Sponsored Bill W. by Mel B. The book indicates that Ebby appeared > before Cebra's father, Judge Graves, and was told that he "was due > back in Bennington for trial Monday morning" (p. 57). Was Judge > Graves the same judge on Monday who "gave Ebby a lecture" and then > released him to Rowland? I've searched through previous posts and > haven't found an answer to this question. > > Chris > Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3574. . . . . . . . . . . . Searcy W. on the Rewards of Recovery From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/12/2006 11:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi AA history lovers, I recently heard the following on a track recorded by Searcy W. I have heard various forms of this over the years and find it follows on from the 'promises'. I have seen something similar in the Big Book but cannot find it. Was Searcy the originator or is it from another source? Anyone know? THE TWELVE REWARDS OF SOBRIETY By Searcy W., 55 years sober as at 2001 aged 90. o Faith instead of despair. o Courage instead of fear. o Hope instead of desperation. o Peace of mind instead of confusion. o Real friendships instead of loneliness. o Self-respect instead of self-contempt. o Self-confidence instead of helplessness. o A clean conscious instead of a sense of guilt. o The respect of others instead of their pity and contempt. o A clean pattern of living instead of a hopeless existence. o The love and understanding of our families instead of their doubts and fears. o The freedom of a happy life instead of the bondage of an alcoholic obsession. A great source of AA tracks in MP3 format is at http://www.xa-speakers.org/ located in Iceland with over 800 tracks including AA Founders. Perfect for my iPod. Robin F. Caloundra, Australia. Page 55 of the Big Book awoke my spirit. www.BriefTSF.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3575. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: "Little Red Riding Hoods" in early AA meetings? From: David Jones . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2006 7:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When Alcoholics Anonymous was founded in 1935, many people believed that women couldn't be alcoholics, much less that they deserved a place at the A.A. table. Although we now take for granted that the doors of A.A. are open to any alcoholic male or female this was not always the case. In Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America, William L. White describes the challenges faced by women seeking recovery in the early years of A.A. The following excerpts from White's book highlight the struggles and contributions of these female pioneers. The first women in A.A. The wives of early A.A. members--particularly Anne Smith and Lois Wilson--participated in and made immense contributions to this developing community. Anne's support and counsel to many of the early alcoholics is legendary. The seeds of many key ideas that emerged within A.A. began in the pages of her journal and in her conversations with early members. Both co-founders noted the role that wives played in the founding of A.A., Dr. Bob even suggesting that there would have been no A.A. without these women. Following close on the heels of the wives of early A.A. members were the first alcoholic women seeking assistance from A.A.: an unnamed Indian waitress; Sylvia K., the "glamorous divorcee"; Jane, the wife of a wealthy industrialist; Lelia M., the heiress; Ruth T. of Toledo; Ethel M. and Kaye M., who came into the program with their husbands; and Nona W. There was also Florence R., whose story appeared in the first edition of the Big Book, and who objected to one of the book's proposed titles, "One Hundred Men." She later returned to drinking and died of alcoholism. Lil, the very first woman to seek help from A.A., got loaded with Victor, another early prospect, pioneering what would come to be christened "thirteenth stepping" (sexual or romantic involvement with someone whose sobriety is relatively new and therefore potentially unstable). Lil, like many of the women who contacted A.A. in the early years, did not get sober during this period. Marty M., who entered A.A. in New York in 1939 and went on to become the first woman to achieve enduring sobriety within A.A., noted that many of these women failed to get sober not because they were so much sicker, but simply because they were women. Resistance to female membership Many early A.A. members did not believe women could be alcoholics. Some were not quite sure how women could fit into this fellowship, while others stated openly that A.A. would not work for women. Some in the latter group prophesied that the inclusion of women could threaten A.A.'s future. Some women entering A.A. were given rude treatment. The first alcoholic woman involved in the Cleveland group was "thrown out of A.A. by the wives." The primary fear regarding the involvement of women in A.A. was of the potential disruptiveness of the sexual dynamic that might emerge within the groups. [This fear] imbedded itself within early A.A. folk sayings such as, "Under every skirt is a slip." To manage this potential disruption during A.A.'s early years, women and men sat on different sides of meeting rooms, and the first women were often sponsored not by A.A. members but by their wives. As more single and divorced women entered A.A., friction between these women and the wives of A.A. men increased. This led to the creation of "closed meetings," attended only by alcoholics, in addition to "open meetings," which were open to all. Stigmas and stereotypes Special problems facing women in A.A. were acknowledged as early as 1945, when a Grapevine article noted the isolation of alcoholic women and their propensity to be involved with pills as well as booze. A Grapevine article the following year--in spite of a disclaimer that it should not be read as a blanket indictment of women--was filled with the kinds of stereotyping that women were likely to encounter in the A.A. of this period. The article made the following eleven points: 1) The percentage of women who stay in A.A. is low. 2) Many women form attachments too intense--bordering on the emotional. 3) So many women want to run things. 4) Too many women don't like women. 5) Women talk too much. 6) Women are a questionable help working with men and vice versa. 7) Sooner or later, a woman-on-the-make sallies into a group, on the prowl for phone numbers and dates. 8) A lot of women are attention-demanders. 9) Few women can think in the abstract. 10) Women's feelings get hurt too often. 11) Far too many women A.A.'s cannot get along with the non-alcoholic wives of A.A. members. Women were often refused sponsorship by the male members and were viewed as suspect due to their frequent concurrent addiction to "goofballs." The special stigma that female alcoholics faced in the 1940s and '50s was reflected in some sensationalist [media] treatment. Newspaper articles about women in A.A. bore such titles as "Women Drunkards, Pitiful Creatures, Get Helping Hand." Perhaps most outlandish was a 1954 on A.A. in Confidential Magazine entitled, "No Booze But Plenty of Babes." Jack Alexander's 1950 article on A.A. in the Saturday Evening Post noted: "More than one group has been thrown into a maelstrom of gossip and disorder by a determined lady whose alcoholism was complicated by an aggressive romantic interest." This [negative] public image of the female drinker no doubt kept many alcoholic women from seeking help and led to such other unusual events as Sunday drivers in Minnesota passing Dia Linn (Hazelden's treatment unit for women) in hopes of seeing "wild woman drinkers." Enduring contributions Female pioneers "toughed it out" and made things easier for the women who followed them. Women's groups within A.A. began springing up during the early 1940s in Cleveland and other A.A. strongholds. There, female A.A. members were free to talk about many issues (sexual abuse, intimate relationships, family problems, menstruation, abortion, menopause) that they would not have been comfortable addressing in mixed-gender meetings. Women were the dominant force behind the A.A. Grapevine and did all of the early work of the General Service Office, as they continue to conduct much of that activity today. The percentage of women within the total membership of Alcoholics Anonymous has risen steadily since its founding. In 1955, A.A. reported that 15% of its members were women; by 1968 that percentage had risen to 22%; and in the 1996 survey, women constituted 33% of members. From Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America by William L. White (Chestnut Health Systems, 1998). Used by kind permission of the author God bless Dave --- In HYPERLINK "mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com"AAHistoryLovers@-yahoogr oups.-com, "archie" wrote: > > Looking for an explanation of the term "Red Riding > Hoods" as used in the text below. It came from the > book "Slaying the Dragon" by William L. White on > page 135, paragraph 1, lines 20 to 28. > > There were also tensions regarding the proper relationship > between A.A. and the informal club houses that were > springing up around the organization. An early report > on an A.A. Clubhouse in San Francisco made note of the strain > from "over-crowding at meetings" and the problem of "drunks, > panhandlers, wolves, and Red Riding Hoods upsetting the > meetings." All of these situations reflected A.A.'s growing > pains. > It might be a reference to women whose vulnerability is a little more calcuated than genuine. I have a vague recollection of someone who looks at children's stories through a psychoanalytic lens remarking on the oddity of the setup in Red Riding Hood. Who would send a lone, small child into wolf-infested woods? Either her mother exposed her to danger deliberately, or RRH is not as innocent as she appears. Cora ____________-_________-_________-___ Note from Glenn C. (moderator): Cora, this was Eric Berne, in his book "What Do You Say After You Say Hello?" It's a brilliant book. He argues that fairy tales and other childhood literary motifs often offer good metaphors for describing the psychological games that adults play, and the "life scripts" (an idea that he developed) which shape the course of our lives. E.g., some people use a disability to play "Little Lame Prince" all their lives, taking a real disability which they have, but using it as a phony excuse for avoiding responsibility in all sorts of other areas where it is not relevant. Alcoholics sometimes play this game with their alcoholism. In parts of this book, and also in parts of Berne's "Games People Play," he describes women who play "vulnerable" and "helpless," as you describe, while simultaneously pretending to show sexual availability in a flirtatious manner, in order to manipulate men into doing the things they want. In the context of Bill W.'s remarks, I suspect that a "Little Red Riding Hood" was a woman who came into AA meetings talking about all the "big bad wolves" who had abused her, and batting her eyelashes at one of the men in the meeting, in an attempt to convince him that he was "a bold woodsman" who would step in and play hero and "save her" from all the big bad wolves. There are sufficient male alcoholics who are dumb enough to fall for that con game, to enable a Little Red Riding Hood to get into numerous sick relationships within AA. It was Eric Berne, as far as I can tell, who basically developed the idea of "rescuing" and "enabling" behavior as a kind of psychological con game which some people play, and he pointed out that alcoholics in particular are experts at playing that particular psychological con game. So a "Little Red Riding Hood" is a woman who is looking for a man who will play Rescuer and Enabler, in the way in which Bill W. seems to have been using the metaphor. The idea of "codependent behavior" was a development based on Berne's original ideas about Persecutor-Victim--Rescuer con games, which came along a decade or so later. I think Berne's original language is much more precise and much more useful than the somewhat amorphous concept of codependency, which attempts to include far too many different kinds of psychological game playing. But that's just me. Tom P. (below) talks about the flip side of the Little Red Riding Hood game, namely men who try to chat up women newcomers to AA, and convince them that they are the big bold heroic woodsmen who will "protect" them from the wolves and "carry their basket of goodies for them." ____________-_________-_________-___ From: "Tom P." (HYPERLINK "mailto:tomper99%40yahoo.com"tomper99@yahoo.-com) Archie: From message 50 on this site and a tape of Bill W. talk in Chicago in 1951: "There were people, believe it or not whose morals were bad and the respectable alcoholics of that time shook their heads and said, "Surely these immoral people are going to render us asunder." Little Red Riding Hood and the bad wolves began to abound. Ah, yes, could our society last?" Seems Bill W. was talking about the fear generated in some that others would cause the end of AA. I like James Thurber's rendition of "Little Red Riding Hood" where she recognizes the Big Bad Wolf in Grandma's bed and takes her automatic out of her basket and shoots him dead. Moral of the story: "It is not so easy to fool little girls nowadays as it used to be." -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.1/390 - Release Date: 17/07/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.1/390 - Release Date: 17/07/2006 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3576. . . . . . . . . . . . Earl T. and Sylvia K. in Chicago From: scruffymactaggis . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2006 12:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I live in Australia and have just moved to a small country town and the most influential member in the small fellowship here mentions regularly that all the earliest members died drunk because they didn't know they needed to keep working the steps; this is despite the fact that Bill clearly states we cannot rest on our laurels, we must continue to take inventory and work with others. I know of course that our co-founders stayed sober, as did Jim Burwell, Bill Dotson and Clarence Snyder. I would appreciate any information or directions to a site that contains info about which of the other early AA people died sober. I am especially interested in the two Chicago people: Earl Treat, "He Sold Himself Short" and Sylvia Kauffman, "The Keys to the Kingdom." The stories of the Big Book authors which I have been able to find on the internet often end before the person's death, so I can't always tell from those accounts which ones died sober: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html ______________________________ From the moderator: Who can tell us about Earl Treat and Sylvia Kauffman? Earl was the great early leader in Chicago AA. See the photo of him at one of the Minnesota gatherings of the old timers at http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html . Don B. or Rick Tompkins, you are Chicago people, can you tell us about Earl and Sylvia? Or somebody else in the group? It was Nancy Olson (now deceased), the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, who wrote those stories that you consulted, and in some instances, she was not able at that time to find out how the person ended his or her life. That did NOT mean that the person died drunk, just that she was unable (through her own researches) to find out about the last years of that person's life. It was a massive research project, and she did a really good job at it, but like a lot of things in AA history, it takes numerous researchers (living in different parts of the country and looking in various local archives) to locate all of the available evidence. That is what makes the AAHistoryLovers group so useful. A large number of experts can pool their knowledge, and greatly increase our overall knowledge of what happened historically. AA history all across the U.S. and Canada and all around the world is too big a topic for any one person to do all the research on it and be an expert on all of it. All really major historical research has to be a cooperative group effort on the part of a large number of researchers. We have gained additional information on some of these people since then. If you look at the past messages in the AAHistoryLovers, you will be able to find a lot of messages dealing with this topic. The guff about most of the early AA members dying drunk was a misunderstanding which arose because a number of the stories in the first edition of the Big Book were removed and replaced with other stories in the second edition. Some people falsely assumed that these stories were removed because the authors had gotten drunk. That was not so. They were removed to put in what Bill W. thought were better written stories, that would be more useful to larger numbers of members. See Message 3353 at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3353 The reason I am posting this is because, no matter how many times the good AA historians repeat that this myth about most of the early AA people dying drunk is total nonsense, the myth keeps on cropping up again. We have members of the group who are better experts than me on this, who will set me right if I get this wrong, but the best current research (as I understand it) shows that about 50% of the people whose stories appeared in the first edition of the Big Book died sober with no slips. Another 25% roughly had a temporary slip at one point, but ended up dying sober. It comes out to pretty close to an overall 75% success rate. We need to put to rest all the nonsense you sometimes hear about "most of the early AA people dying drunk." NO, NO, NO. Just like today, they too had large numbers of people in the early days who played around with AA for a few days or a few weeks and then disappeared. Of those who stuck around for a while and actually tried working the program seriously and honestly, the 50% / 25% rule seems pretty close to correct. In the U.S. today, we have a big drop off during the first three months, but 50% of the people who come into AA and keep attending meetings and staying sober for three months, will still be around at the end of their first year. And as we all know, some of the people who don't make it the first time around, end up coming back and eventually getting sober. It is not that much different today from the early AA experience. The most important part of what your Australian AA leader said is certainly true: if we wish to be certain of dying sober, we have to keep "working the steps .... we cannot rest on our laurels, we must continue to take inventory and work with others." But I sure wish he wouldn't keep repeating that falsehood that most of the early AA people died drunk, because that was not true. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3577. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book Story Author Interview (4 of 4) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/15/2006 9:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Interview With the Author of "Physician, Heal Thyself! Fourth in a series of articles on authors of Big Book stories AA Grapevine, October 1995 DR. EARLE M. Dr. Earle's story "Physician, Heal Thyself!" appeared in the Second and Third Editions of the Big Book. Dr. Earle was interviewed by telephone at his home in California by a Grapevine staff member. What is the background of your Big Book story? I'd met Bill, and he and I had become very friendly because we had the same kind of a hot-flash story--Bill sobered up with a big hot flash and so did I. Physical sobriety came to both of us on a golden platter. He got hold of the tape of a talk I'd made at Folsom Prison, and he said he wanted to put my story in the Big Book, and I said, "Sure." So that's the way it happened. It was typed from the tape recording. I think I helped with some of the editing of it. Have you had occasion to reread it lately? Not for some time. Why? I was just curious to know what you thought of it now. I would say again what I said there, and that is that I lost nothing materially, that I was on the "skid row of success." As a matter of fact, I made more money the last year of my drinking than I'd made in my whole life. (More than I've made since, too!) But the skid row of success is just as uncomfortable as the actual skid row in a down-and-out area of a city. When I came to AA, we had a lot of low-bottom snobs who would look at everybody else and say, "What do you know about drinking? I've spilled more on my tie than you've ever seen." Then pretty soon we got some high-bottom snobs who said, "At least I didn't have to go as far down as you did before I came to AA." I think these comparisons between high and low bottoms make no sense because alcoholism is like pregnancy--either you are or you aren't. A woman can be in early pregnancy and not show, but she's still pregnant. With alcoholism, there may be degrees but it's all the same disease. And unmanageability can manifest in a variety of ways. Yes. I don't know how many dozens of times I tried to stop drinking, and I could do it--but I couldn't stay stopped. I remember one time, a Sunday, that I was looking in the bathroom mirror, and I looked terrible. I said to myself as I had said many times before, "I'm going to stop drinking for good. I'm going to go on the wagon forever"--a very dangerous statement. And I was pretty good on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, but on Friday I came home and went to the kitchen and poured a big glass of vodka and drank it down. And as I drank it, I said, "Earle, you said you weren't going to ever drink again." Somehow, I just could not stay stopped. But the last day of my drinking I had a tremendous flash of awareness about what addiction was and what had happened to me and then the craving to take a drink disappeared and has never returned. What happened? I talk about it some in my Big Book story. The only thing I knew about AA was what I'd read in Jack Alexander's article [Saturday Evening Post, March 1941]. It said that one of the founders, Dr. Bob, was a doctor, and I'm a doctor--I'm a gynecologist and I'm also a psychiatrist--so I identified with that. On the last day of my drinking, I talked to a friend of mine about AA. My friend gave me a piece of paper and there were twenty-four or twenty-five statements on it directed toward the drinker who's planning on stopping. Now that wasn't me. I didn't plan on stopping. In fact, I thought I had the problem licked--once again. I had gotten a concoction that I thought wouldn't get me drunk--vodka over ice. Plus, I hadn't ever considered myself alcoholic. I hadn't used that phrase. A drunk--yes. I couldn't stop drinking and stay stopped--yes. But in those days we used the word alcoholic to mean somebody on skid row, and I wasn't on skid row. I don't recall leaving my friend's house (I wasn't totally blacked-out that day--I was kind of browned-out), but I do recall being on my deck in Mill Valley trying to make out what this piece of paper said. I was just so drunk I couldn't read it. So I asked my wife to read it to me and she did. And she read one thing that said, "Don't stop drinking for anybody else except yourself." That made a very deep impression on me; to this day I've no idea why. And the next thing she read was, "Don't consider yourself a martyr because you stopped drinking." I've forgotten what the other statements were, but those two just hit me across the face like a baseball bat. I broke down and cried. Of course crying was par for the course in those days. Bing Crosby was popular then and I'd listen to his songs and I'd cry, or I'd be driving along and I'd look up at the sky and I'd see a lovely cloud and I'd cry. I'd look at my wife and daughter and cry, and I suspect they looked at me and cried too. Well, that evening my wife patted me on the back and went into the house, and I sat there and I'd never felt so depressed in my life. Now, I'm a reasonably happy guy. I have my downs, like everybody does, but in general I kind of radiate above the line. But this was the deepest I'd ever felt. I was feeling just terrible. I don't know how long I sat there--for a long time. Finally I looked at my watch and I realized it was time to ascend my stairs--we lived on the side of a mountain--and go up to the barbecue area and make the fire for dinner. I remember going up those stairs and being so drunk I was afraid I'd fall. There were no handrails on those stairs. I got to the top stair and I looked at my drink and I had just a little bit left in the bottom of the glass, and I thought, "This small amount won't do any good, I'd better go down to the kitchen and make a big drink and bring it back up." So I turned around, just feeling terrible, down and depressed, and all of a sudden a very remarkable thing happened to me. It was as though an explosion occurred inside of me. I felt pain in every segment of my body. I have no idea why this happened. At that instant I heard the words, "This is your last drink." Well, I certainly hadn't planned on this. This is your last drink! I looked at my glass and poured out what was there. I'd already had my last drink. I never felt so relieved in my life. God, I felt good. I felt just tremendous. It suddenly occurred to me: "Earle, your trouble is that you call yourself a drunk; you're not, you're an alcoholic." At that instant the craving to take another drink evaporated from me and believe it or not, it has never returned once. I saw my friend the next day and I went to AA and I got turned on by AA and I've been turned on ever since. When was that? I came into the Fellowship on the fifteenth of June, 1953. So by the time this article is published, it'll be forty-two years and I'll be eighty-four years old. I still go to AA meetings several times a week. I think it's the greatest. I have a lot of fun there. In the Big Book, you talk about operating on a woman with a tumor and how that brought you a sense of the Higher Power. Can you tell us any more about that experience? When I came into AA I knew all about psychological things but I had never thought of a power greater than myself--that really hadn't crossed my consciousness. So in AA they said you needed to find a power greater than you were. Jimmy B. and Hank P. were the guys responsible for the phrase "as you understand Him" and I talked to Jimmy and Hank, I talked to Bill, I talked to Chuck C.--I kept asking, "What's all this Higher Power stuff?" When I was about nine or ten months sober, I operated on a woman and took out a large uterine tumor. I took out the sutures on the sixth day, and the wound was tightly healed together. How come? As I was pondering this, the woman's husband called me. He said, "I want to thank you for curing my wife. We are deeply appreciative." And she got on the phone and said the same thing. I said, "Well, I'm glad to be of service," but when we hung up, I asked myself, "Did you cure her?" And I thought about the wound and how it had healed, and while I didn't underestimate my diagnostic ability or my surgical ability, I wondered if I really could say I'd cured her. Well, I couldn't account for it. I thought, Well, maybe the nurses at the hospital cured her, because after all they had spent more time with her than I did. I spent many hours in surgery with her, but after that I just spent a few minutes twice a day making rounds. But I realized that as valuable as the nurses were and as lovely as they were, even they could not bring about a cure. And then it finally became perfectly clear to me that inside of every human being there is a healing power. I had cut my finger and it had gotten well; I'd broken a bone and it had gotten well; I'd operated on this woman and she had gotten well. How come? That to me, in its simplest form, is a concept of a power greater than I am. What was your impression of Bill W.? I thought he was a hell of a great guy. I went back to New York and I met Nell Wing [Bill's nonalcoholic secretary], and some others, and they took me in and introduced me to Bill. He was a great big tall, long, lanky guy. And he and I took to each other just like a duck takes to water. We sat and talked for an hour or two, I think, and we just talked back and forth--what had happened to him, what had happened to me--and we became fast friends almost instantly. He was a guy who felt very deeply about things, and he'd had a remarkable experience that had brought him to the conclusion that he might sober up the world. And to begin with, he went off to do just that--to sober up the world. But pretty soon he quieted down and just sobered up those around him. I went back to New York many, many times and spent time with him. He had a room in a hotel under the name William Griffith. He didn't use his last name because people could find him. He and I would spend all day long talking about things, talking about one thing or another--we shared all kinds of stuff. Let me tell you about one of my trips back to New York. I looked at Bill and he just looked terrible. And I said, "Bill, how do you feel?" And he said, "I don't feel well at all." I found out that whenever guests came to AA headquarters, Bill would take them down to a little ice cream shop around the corner and he'd buy them ice cream and cake and coffee. He was doing nothing day after day but drinking coffee and eating ice cream and cake. And I said, "Bill, you know, this isn't the best diet." He said, "I guess it's not. What shall I do?" So I put him on a high protein diet and he went on that diet and got to feeling just great. And people said, "Bill, you look so good--what happened?" And Bill said, "My gynecologist put me on a high protein diet." Have you had periods in sobriety that were emotionally difficult? Oh my, yes. So did Bill--you know Bill had a long depression. Let me tell you how I got at some emotional rest. Years ago, a medical college in the South asked me to go to Saigon as a visiting professor to help the Vietnamese set up a new department in gynecology and obstetrics. Before I left, I went back to see Bill and Lois and Marty M. and some others, and I spent about eight or nine days back in New York before I went to Asia. Bill took me to the airport and on the way there he said, "You know, Earle, I've been sober longer than anyone else in our organization. After all I was sober six months when I met Bob. But," he said, "I don't have too much peace of mind." He said, "I feel down in the dumps a hell of a lot." So I said, "So do I, Bill. I don't have much serenity either." I was sober by this time maybe sixteen, seventeen years. He said, "Do me a favor. When you get over to Asia, see if you can investigate, firsthand, the various religions in Asia. That means Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism, and Confucianism and ancestral worship and the whole shebang." And I said, "All right, I'll do it." And he said, "Stay in contact with me and maybe we can find something in those religions. After all, we've taken from William James, we've taken from all the Christian religions. Let's see what these others have." So I hugged Bill and got on the plane and went to Asia. I had three or four rest and relaxation periods a year but I didn't rest and relax. I was determined to find something that would bring peace and serenity to me. I spent a lot of time in Nepal and in Indonesia. I spent time in India. I went into these places looking, looking, looking for serenity. I spent two or three years just driving to find out something. I tried meditation, I read the Bhagavad Gita, the Vedas--everything. I went to an ashram on the southeast coast of India, run by a very famous guru and saint. There were about a hundred and fifty East Indians there. I was the only Westerner and they welcomed me. I wore a dhoti--that's a white skirt that men wear--and I wore one like the rest of them did. We all ate on the ground on great big banana leaves over a yard long. There would be food on the banana leaves and you'd make it into a ball with your right hand and throw it into your mouth. There were no knives or forks at all, so I did what they did. I didn't like the taste very much but I did it. I happened to be there at the time of the Feast of Dewali. Dewali is like our time of Easter; it's the time of renewal. We were awakened on the early morning of Dewali around two o'clock. This ashram was located at the base of a mountain known as Arunachal. Now Arunachal in Hindi means sun, and the myth goes that one of the gods, Rama, lives inside of this mountain. We were told we had to walk around the base of this mountain--which was a ten mile walk--and as we walked, we were yelling to Rama. If you do it in a very firm and believing way, it's said that Rama will come up and wave at you and bless you. I was there, and I did it. We walked around and we were yelling "Rama, Rama, Rama" hoping that Rama would come up and bless us all. They all walked in their bare feet. I didn't, I wore my shoes. Gosh, I was tired. But I walked all night long, the whole distance. After that event, I came back to my little apartment in Saigon, ready to return to my medical work. I was so beaten because I'd been driving and searching and clenching my fists for almost three years (and I kept writing to Bill about all this, you know). And I came into my apartment and I suddenly collapsed down onto the floor. I lay there breathing kind of heavily and I said to myself, "Oh, to hell with serenity, I don't care if it ever comes." And I meant it. And do you know what happened? All of a sudden the craving to find serenity utterly evaporated--and there it was. Serenity. The trouble was the search . . . looking out there for what was right here. You know, we only have this given second. There's always now. Once I realized that, serenity became mine. Now--I'm speaking about emotions--I haven't sought one single thing since that day because it's all right here. I often say to people at meetings, "You're trying to find peace of mind out there. I don't blame you, but it isn't out there. It's here. Right here." Now, do I think there is a supreme being, a God? Sure I do. Of course. But do I have any religious beliefs? No. Religion demands that you do certain things and my life in AA isn't like that. AA is a very loose-jointed organization. People say there is only one way to work the program. That's crazy. We talk about the "suggested" Steps, which are guides to recovery, not absolutes. Chapter five of the Big Book says "no one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles." If we had all the members of AA standing here, everyone would have a different idea what AA is all about. Bill's idea was different from Dr. Bob's, yours will be different from mine. And yet they're all based on one thing and that is: don't drink, and use the Twelve Steps in your own way. Do you sponsor people differently now than you did years ago? I don't think I do. Maybe these days sponsees tend to talk about not only their drinking but a little more about the relationship problems, and so we get into conversations about their wives or sweethearts and some emotional problems. So whatever changes you find in AA, you're not uncomfortable with them? Well, some AA groups have turned into kind of psychological forums and that isn't AA to me. Maybe it is, I don't know. But here's the way I feel about it, correct or incorrect: AA is my family, and every family has a mix of people in it. Every family has people who are braggarts who think they know everything--every family does. Every family has people who whine all the time--every family. And every family has people who go out and do very well and succeed at the art of living. So when I hear the whiners--well, they're kind of a bore, but on the other hand, a family always has boring whiners in it. Did your marriage change after you got sober? Oh my God, yes--I've been married four times. I was sober about fifteen years before I got divorced the first time. I'd been married thirty years. It was a marriage that was not very successful. My wife and I went on different paths, but we were victims of the idea that good boys and girls don't get divorced. Finally I said to Mary, "You know, I think we ought to get divorced," and she said, "I think so too. We don't have much in common." So we had a very sensible, quiet, straight-forward divorce. But you can't hang from the rope for thirty years and not miss it when it's cut down. So, after that I got married twice for very short times to two very fine women, good friends of mine today. Then I had a long time when I wasn't married and then I met my current wife and we've been married fifteen years. She's sitting right here, by the way, working on the computer. Is there any Step that is a particular help to you? I like that Tenth Step pretty well. When you make a mistake--stomp on somebody's toes--you can straighten it out right away. I think that's a pretty valuable Step. What is your view of the Eleventh Step? Let me say something which might be heretical to many people. I think that God's will and my will are identical. I think that it was God's will that I become addicted to alcohol and amphetamines so that I could find AA and get sober. And so I feel that the greatest thing that ever happened to me were the alcohol and drugs that I took, because that brought me to where I am, and I need to be here. If the casting director who runs this whole universe were to come to me and say, "Earle, you're going to live your life over again," I would say, "All right, but I want to live it exactly the same way--all the misery, all the drinks, all the amphetamines." All the stuff I took, I'd do it exactly the same way. Why? If I didn't do it exactly the same way, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation and I live on such things. So, the Eleventh Step is great but I don't need to pray for God's guidance. It's here all the time. So God's will for you is to be sober. That's right, but he had to get me drunk first. Is there anything you'd like to say in conclusion? I think AA is the greatest thing alive. And I think that we do need to check on what's happening in AA, and I think we need to look at AA as a family. AA cannot be the same way it was when Dr. Bob and Bill were here. So I think that we need to go along with changes in AA but let's not forget the Twelve Steps. Let's not forget those suggested Steps that we can use to make ourselves more aware of what's going on. Because to me the greatest thing in life is to be aware of what's happening all the time. I'm not a church-goer--I'm in church all the time. To me, prayer is utter awareness. I don't know if that makes sense to you but it does to me. It's being aware of things, of what's going on around me all the time, in a given second. That to me is a form of prayer, that to me is a form of righteousness, if you want to use that religious word. A Buddhist might call that awareness "mindfulness." Christians call it a state of grace. We in AA have a bit of a state of grace. This concludes the Grapevine's series of interviews with writers whose stories have appeared in the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3578. . . . . . . . . . . . Why is the word "rarely" used? From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/17/2006 4:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII hi history lovers, have you any idea on why bill used the term rarely in chapter five. ----------------------------- Big Book p. 58, first sentence in Chapter 5: "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." ----------------------------- we understand that people who do not recover are people who cannot or will not develop a manner of living that demands rigorous honesty. we also understand that people with grave emotional and mental disorders who cannot thoroughly follow this path do not recover. if our groups experience is anything to go by we agree with Dr bob that it never fails if the path is thoroughly followed. the above mentioned cannot or will not follow this path so although it is not their fault it is not the books fault either so again why did bill and the first hundred choose the word rarely. your ideas on this matter will be greatly appreciated. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3579. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant July Dates in A.A. History From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2006 1:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The "Best Cartoons of the Grapevine" shows on page 4 a Victor E cartoon dated July 1962. Shakey Mike G. (Going to Baton Rouge in September; anyone else?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3580. . . . . . . . . . . . In what order did earliest AA ask people to read the Big Book? From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/16/2006 9:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi history lovers, our group was just wondering, when the big book was sent out to people IN THE VERY BEGINNING, was there ANY OTHER MATERIAL sent out to them along with that copy of the book, explaining how to read the book, and in what order? For example was there anything that stated read the first portion of the book first or identify with the shares at the back first then read the first portion of the book? The reason we ask is that it seems that some of these people would be sponsorless and you miss so much if you read the book alone. We do realise that the book directs us in the forewards and "There is a Solution" to the back of the book but we just wondered if there was any more information. Thanks for your assistance IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3581. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Canada AA From: Hugh D. Hyatt . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2006 9:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Paul is alleged to have written, on or about 12-Jul-06 05:46: > July 2, 1993 - 50 years of AA celebrated in Canada. > > July 2-4, 1965 - 30th Anniversary of AA in Toronto. Adopted "I Am > Responsible." > > July 5-7, 1985 - 50th AA Anniversary in Montreal, Canada. > > Using the dates from this wonderful group I thought that Canada and the > USA used the same starting dates for AA. Now I see that they > celebrated 50 years of AA in 1993 making their AA date 1943. Now if > this is the case then why do we have AA anniversaries in Canada > celebrating 1935? A.A. as a whole dates itself from the beginning of Dr. Bob's sobriety in June 1935, allegedly on the 10th, when Bill W. successfully carried the message to another alcoholic for the first time (despite Bill's having been sober since December 1934). The 30th and 50th anniversaries in Canada were International Conventions celebrating the time since that event. The first A.A. meeting was presumably held in Canada in 1943. -- Hugh H. Bryn Athyn, PA USA Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3582. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chapter called "The Lone Endeavor" in 1st Ed.1st Printing From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2006 10:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 15:33 7/11/2006 , Shakey Mike wrote that he has "a list of AA members sober between June 1935 to February 1939 in Akron and New York. This particular list was highlighted with comments from Sybil Corwin and states Ruth Hock wrote (the) chapter called The lone Endeavor in first edition! Just before book went to print based on phone calls and letters from Pat from Los Angeles .... THIS IS SIGNIFICANT. This credits a non-alcoholic as writing a chapter in the Big Book." ____________________________ FROM TOMMY: My understanding is that both the Akron Group and the New York Group had professional help writing the stories in the back of the First Edition. One of the professional writers was a member of the group and the other was hired, so another non-alcoholic had a hand in writing the book. Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3583. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chapter called "The Lone Endeavor" in 1st Ed.1st Printing From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2006 7:28:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ruth told me that she had written the Lone Endeavor during several conversations I had with her. Depending on the conversation there were two versions on how she did the writing - one was that the story was a compilation of several similar stories about people getting sober just through the book and two, that the story she wrote was based upon a compilation of several contacts with Pat Cooper. As to a non-alcoholic writing a chapter..... Maybell Lucas (My Wife and I) co-authored a story and Marie Bray (An Alcoholic's Wife) also authored a story..... both non-alcoholics from what I've been told. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3584. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Canada AA From: Joe Nugent . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2006 8:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The two dates were for the international which is celebrated every five years, as a Canadian we are fortunate to have three so far that's including 2005 in Toronto again using the same responsibility pledge.all the alcoholics I know use the June 10th 1935 date. As for the 1993 date was when the first meeting was held in Toronto. If I go to Akron they celebrate the amount of years gone by since the 1935 date, am I missing something here. Joe _____ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 5:46 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Canada AA July 2, 1993 - 50 years of AA celebrated in Canada. July 2-4, 1965 - 30th Anniversary of AA in Toronto. Adopted "I Am Responsible." July 5-7, 1985 - 50th AA Anniversary in Montreal, Canada. Using the dates from this wonderful group I thought that Canada and the USA used the same starting dates for AA. Now I see that they celebrated 50 years of AA in 1993 making their AA date 1943. Now if this is the case then why do we have AA anniversaries in Canada celebrating 1935? Thanks Paul [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3585. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why is the word "rarely" used? From: Jim B . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2006 2:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII trixiebella wrote hi history lovers, have you any idea on why bill used the term rarely in chapter five. He used the word rarely because we are Not-God. To lay claim to any kind of absolute control of recovery would be to claim to have God like powers. In the archives are two articles which appeared in the GV on this subject. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3586. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why is the word "rarely" used? From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2006 8:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When asked that question, Bill W. habitually replied, "Well, we didn't want to seem to be claiming anything as a hundred per cent result." This connected with the early alcoholics' difficulty accepting the Oxford Group's "Four Absolutes." As Bill wrote on another occasion (in one of his "letters of record," according to Nell Wing): "Alcoholics are as dedicated to honesty, unselfishness, purity and love as any other people, but we found that when we put the word 'absolute' in front of them, the drunks simply couldn't stand the pace." [Both quotations from memory and therefore the wording may not be exact, but this is true to Bill's expressed thought in each case.] ernie kurtz trixiebellaa wrote: > > > hi history lovers, have you any idea on why bill used the term rarely > in chapter five. > > ----------------------------- > Big Book p. 58, first sentence in Chapter 5: "Rarely have > we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." > ----------------------------- > > we understand that people who do not recover are > people who cannot or will not develop a manner of living that demands > rigorous honesty. we also understand that people with grave emotional > and mental disorders who cannot thoroughly follow this path do not > recover. if our groups experience is anything to go by we agree with > Dr bob that it never fails if the path is thoroughly followed. the > above mentioned cannot or will not follow this path so although it is > not their fault it is not the books fault either so again why did bill > and the first hundred choose the word rarely. your ideas on this > matter will be greatly appreciated. > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3587. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Why is the word "rarely" used? From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2006 1:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII FROM RARELY TO NEVER? I have heard so many people in A.A. say that Bill Wilson wanted to change the word "Rarely..." to the word "Never..." in the opening of "How It Works", that I just wanted to bring this rumor to the light of truth. In the book "Pass It On" (the green AA history book which came out 13 years after Bill died) it says on page 200: "According to an apocryphal story (which means "a story of doubtful authenticity"), Bill was asked in later years whether there was any change he wished he could make in the Big Book, and he replied that he would change 'rarely' to 'never'. Bill himself said he never considered that change." ************************* "Rarely - or Never?" How co-founder Bill Wilson answered a frequently asked question. The AA Grapevine, December 1978 From time to time over the years, some AA members will question the wording of the first sentence of Chapter 5 of Alcoholics Anonymous: "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Why, the enthusiastic member asks, doesn't the Big Book say, "Never have we seen a person fail..."? This question was answered - several times - by an AA well qualified to speak on the subject, since he wrote the book, with the assistance of other early members. Bill Wilson, AA's co-founder, answered a 1961 letter from Minnesota with these words (preserved, like those of the following letter, in the archives at the AA General Service Office): "Concerning your comment about the use of the word 'rarely" in Chapter 5 of the Big Book: My recollection is that we did give this considerable thought at the time of writing. I think the main reason for the use of the word 'rarely' was to avoid anything that would look like a claim of a 100% result. Assuming, of course, that an alcoholic is willing enough and sane enough, there can be a perfect score on [a person of this sort]. But since willingness and sanity are such elusive and fluctuating values, we simply didn't want to be too positive. The medical profession could jump right down our throats. "Then, too, we have seen people who have apparently tried their very best, and then failed, not because of unwillingness, but perhaps by reason of physical tension or some undisclosed quirk, not known to them or anyone else. Neither did we want to over encourage relatives and friends in the supposition that their dear ones could surely get well in AA if only they were willing. I think that's why we chose that word. I remember thinking about it a lot. "Maybe some of these same reasons would apply to present conditions. Anyhow, I do know this: The text of the AA book is so frozen in the minds of tens of thousands of AA's that even the slightest change creates an uproar." ************************* In 1967, Bill made the following reply to a Florida member asking the same question: "Respecting my use of the word 'rarely,' I think it was chosen because it did not express an absolute state of affairs, such as 'never' does. Anyhow, we are certainly stuck with the word 'rarely.' My few efforts to change the wording of the AA book have always come to naught - the protests are always too many." ************************* And at the 1970 General Service Conference, this Ask-It-Basket question was addressed directly to Bill: "If there was any change you would make in the Big Book, would it be to change the word 'rarely' to 'never' at the start of Chapter 5. Bill answered, "No." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3588. . . . . . . . . . . . Marty Mann in New York or Sylvia K. in Chicago? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2006 5:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 18:03 7/18/2006 , David Jones wrote: "Marty M., who entered A.A. in New York in 1939 and went on to become the first woman to achieve enduring sobriety within A.A., noted that many of these women failed to get sober not because they were so much sicker, but simply because they were women." This perpetuates the false notion that Marty M was the first female A.A. with enduring sobriety. This should probably be given to Sylvia K, author of the story, "Keys to the Kingdom," whose sobriety date was September 13, 1939. Marty was sober from Christmas 1940 until some time around 1960, when she relapsed. She sobered up again and remained so until her death. Sally and David Brown detail this in their book "Mrs. Marty Mann, the First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous," Hazelden, 2001. Tommy H in Baton Rouge ________________________________ From the moderator: Tommy's note keys into Message 3576 (posted 6 days ago) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3576 about Chicago AA old timers Earl Treat (BB story "He Sold Himself Short") and Sylvia Kauffmann (BB story "The Keys to the Kingdom") and Nancy Olson's biographies of them at: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html Again, could some of you AA archivists and historians from the Chicago area fill us in? To the best of my knowledge Earl died sober, and I know that his memory is held in high honor as "the grand old man" and one of the main founders of Chicago AA. How about Sylvia Kauffman? Is September 13, 1939 the correct sobriety date for her? Did she have any subsequent slips? Did she die sober? If she got sober in the Fall of 1939, and stayed sober for a significant period of time, then as Tommy says, the title of first woman to obtain extended sobriety in AA should belong to Sylvia. Please note that, as Tommy was careful to say, the question is who was "the first woman to achieve enduring sobriety" in AA, NOT who was the first woman to get sober for a little bit of time, where some of the messages below talk about the various contenders for that title. I thought we had debated this in some of our past messages, but I did a search and cannot see quite how to fit Sylvia in. The past messages I turned up include 3110, 3112, 3132, 3141, 3142, 3143, 3148, 3153, 3157 (especially useful in terms of "who first got one full year in"), and 3169. A more thorough search would probably turn up some more messages that I missed, but I think it is correct that we never did an adequate discussion of Sylvia's life and role in early AA. Chicago AA history is important in the overall history of AA in the U.S. and Canada. It is one of the largest American metropolitan centers -- look at a satellite picture taken at night, and look at that enormous blob of light extending all around the southern coast of Lake Michigan, made up of Chicago and all its suburbs and attached cities -- and it is still a major regional AA center to this day. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3589. . . . . . . . . . . . fifty years of AA From: M.Eaton . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/21/2006 8:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 1993 celebration marked 50 years of AA inToronto and the others marked the anniversaries of AA as a whole....Murray E. Brampton, On. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3590. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: CROSS-TALK From: Jim K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2006 8:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are two prevailing definitions of "Cross Talk" that I am aware of: 1. Speaking out of turn in a meeting often in response to someone sharing or in the midst of their share. 2. Commenting when sharing on what someone else said. The first time I recall encountering the term "cross talk" was in Manhattan in 1997. I was puzzled by the idea when it took on definition number 2 and still wonder what the purpose is other than providing a consequence free atmosphere in which to share (which, by the way, is better reserved for a sponsor's ear). A theurapeutic construct it has dubious value in a spititual program. Jim Kelly --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "lynnaw1979" wrote: > > Looking for information on cross-talk within the AA meeting context. > How did we come up with it? When? How? Thanks > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3591. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 90 meetings in 90 days From: Toto24522@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/19/2006 6:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 7/18/06 10:09:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, serenityodaat@yahoo.se writes: << The saying "90 meetings in 90 days" is pretty common in AA in Sweden. I recall that i once heard on a speaker tape that this saying was "invented" Cleveland AA in the 50's where they had some sort of "contract" with the Salvation army, that if they took drunks to 90 meetings the Salvation army would let the person stay at the shelter for 90 days. Does anyone have any info around this? Love Anders From the website: http://communities.msn.com/A12StepRecoveryDiner/thoughtsonavisittoakron.msnw As told by Chief Blackhawk (Detroit, 40 years in October, 1998), sitting on the front porch of Dr. Bob's house at 855 Ardmore in Akron, Ohio to Floyd H. of Spring, Texas. ORGANIZATIONS There are vital reasons that we are not allied with any sects, denominations, politics, organizations, or institutions. You want to know what they are? The Cleveland group's experience with an outside organization taught us about the danger of trying that. Get in with another organization, they bring their values and opinions and they seldom are what we know works in helping drunks. When the Clarence Snyder (Home Brewmeister) group formed in Cleveland, an article ran in the Cleveland newspaper, The Plain Dealer. The group was flooded with requests for help, and many were low-bottoms who needed 3-5 days of hospitalization. After being turned down by all the local hospitals and after helping the son of a person associated with the Salvation Army, that organization told Clarence they'd make some beds available for alcoholics. In accepting their aid, two things happened. First, AA became allied with an outside organization; next, they fell under that organization's philosophy about recovering from alcoholism and compromised what the alcoholics knew really worked. In order to get the beds, the AA's violated their own procedures. I asked: So what was that organization's philosophy that went against what AA's had been doing? They answered: The Cleveland Salvation Army had a policy of limiting bed space for anyone to a total of three months. Their motive was noble: We'll help you down-and-out's to get by until you get a job and a place of your own, but to motivate you, weire putting a time limit on our assistance -- you have three months, max. Now, for the alkies coming in, they told them the same thing but added, You also have to visit with a recovered alcoholic daily; that is, you have to meet with them 90 times in 90 days, and we're gonna check to make sure you do. Miss a meeting and you have no bed. You're back on the streets. So instead of taking the drunks through in 3 or 4 hours the way we always did it, or a matter of days at the most, we're now into this 90-in-90 plan. I said: So the Cleveland Salvation Army introduced this thing we hear so often today -- ˜Go to 90 meetings in 90 days? They said, Exactly. And the early Cleveland AA's, desperate to get beds they thought they had to have, compromised their approach to working the steps quickly. But to their great credit, the Cleveland AA's keep meticulous records with Clarence's insistence) and their stats revealed that no one gained any long-term sobriety using that plan. So Cleveland separated itself from the Salvation Army with a valuable lesson: stick to the methods proven successful -- alkies taking alkies through the steps and doing it pronto. After Cleveland got back to doing that instead of the 90-in-90-Salvation-Army plan, the AA's got a 93% success rate over the next several decades. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3592. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 90 meetings in 90 days From: Pig Daddy . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/21/2006 10:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I think the 90 and 90 concept was started by treatment facilities. It does work though. It gives the individual an oppertunity to become acustom to the group and the group to the individual --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, anders bystrom wrote: > > Hiya group! > > The saying "90 meetings in 90 days" is pretty common > in AA in Sweden. I recall that i once heard on a > speaker tape that this saying was "invented" > Cleaveland AA in the 50’s where they had some sort of > "contract" with the Salvation army, that if they took > drunks to 90 meetings the Salvation army would let the > person stay at the shelter for 90 days. > > Does anyone have any info around this? > > Love > Anders > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3593. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Rewards and Ann Croft From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/22/2006 1:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Rewards are a personal reworking of the 9th step promises. Ann Croft of Akron composed the 12 Rewards. She was the first woman in Akron AA to stay sober. Ann is referenced twice in Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers. Ann wrote the Rewards to indicate how some of the Promises had come true in her life. Ann never intended that the Rewards would come true generally for members of the Fellowship. We may not get back the love and understanding of our families, for instance. love+service john lee member pittsburgh robin_foote wrote: Hi AA history lovers, I recently heard the following on a track recorded by Searcy W. I have heard various forms of this over the years and find it follows on from the 'promises'. I have seen something similar in the Big Book but cannot find it. Was Searcy the originator or is it from another source? Anyone know? THE TWELVE REWARDS OF SOBRIETY By Searcy W., 55 years sober as at 2001 aged 90. o Faith instead of despair. o Courage instead of fear. o Hope instead of desperation. o Peace of mind instead of confusion. o Real friendships instead of loneliness. o Self-respect instead of self-contempt. o Self-confidence instead of helplessness. o A clean conscious instead of a sense of guilt. o The respect of others instead of their pity and contempt. o A clean pattern of living instead of a hopeless existence. o The love and understanding of our families instead of their doubts and fears. o The freedom of a happy life instead of the bondage of an alcoholic obsession. A great source of AA tracks in MP3 format is at http://www.xa-speakers.org/ located in Iceland with over 800 tracks including AA Founders. Perfect for my iPod. Robin F. Caloundra, Australia. Page 55 of the Big Book awoke my spirit. www.BriefTSF.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3594. . . . . . . . . . . . The 12 Rewards Of Sobriety From: Jan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/21/2006 11:16:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I, too, have often wondered about the origin of the "12 Rewards Of Sobriety". I first encountered these when I visited Syracuse, New York. Many of the AA meeting places and clubrooms in the Syracuse area have these same 12 Rewards printed on windowshades or on small wallet cards. In my years of traveling, the only places I've ever seen these are within a certain radius of Syracuse in central New York State, and a small area of North Central Pennsylvania, close to the New York border along U.S. Route 6. There is also mention of them in various places on the Internet, but no definitive account of their origin that I can find. Best, Jan S. Burlington, Vermont __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3595. . . . . . . . . . . . We Come of Age From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/20/2006 5:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We Come of Age Cleveland, Ohio, July 28-30, 1950 On A.A.'s 15th Anniversary everybody knew that we had grown up. There couldn't be any doubt about it. Members, families and friends -- seven thousand of them -- spent three inspiring, almost awesome days with our good hosts at Cleveland. The theme song of our Conference was gratitude; its keynote was the sure realization that we are now welded as one, the world over. As never before, we dedicated ourselves to the single purpose of carrying good news of A.A. to those millions who still don't know. Mid, as we affirmed the Tradition of Alcoholics Anonymous, we asked that we might remain in perfect unity under the Grace of God for so long as he may need us. Just what did we do? Well, we had meetings, lots of them. The medical meeting, for instance. Our first and greatest friend Dr. Silkworth couldn't get there. But his associate at Knickerbocker Hospital, New York, Dr. Meyer Texon, most ably filled the gap, telling how best the general hospital could relate itself to us. He clinched his points by a careful description how, during the past four years at Knickerbocker, 5000 drunks had been sponsored, processed and turned loose in A. A.; and this to the great satisfaction of everybody concerned, including the hospital, whose Board was delighted with the results and specially liked the fact that its modest charges were invariably paid, money on the line. Who had ever heard of 5000 drunks who really paid their bills? Then Dr. Texon brought us up to the minute on the malady of alcoholism as they see it at Knickerbocker; he said it was a definite personality disorder hooked to a physical craving. That certainly made sense to most of us. Dr. Texon threw a heavy scare into prospective "slippees." It was that little matter of one's liver. This patient organ, he said, would surely develop hob nails or maybe galloping cirrhosis, if more guzzling went on. He had a brand new one too, about salt water, claiming that every alcoholic on the loose had a big saltdeficiency. Fill the victim with salt water, he said, and you'd quiet him right down. Of course we thought, "Why not put all drunks on salt water instead of gin? Then the world alcohol problem might be solved overnight." But that was our idea, not Dr. Texon's. To him, many thanks. About the industrial meeting: Jake H., U.S. Steel, and Dave M., Dupont, both A.A.'s, led it. Mr. Louis Selser, Editor of the Cleveland Press, rounded out the session and brought down the house. Jake, as an officer of Steel, told what the company really thought about A.A. - and it was all good. Jake noted A.A.s huge collective earning power -- somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 billion of dollars annually. Instead of being a nerve-wracking drag on society's collective pocket book, we were now, for the most part, top grade employables who could contribute a yearly average of $4,000 apiece to our country's well being. Dave M., personnel man at Dupont who has a special eye to the company' s alcohol problem, related what the "New Look" on serious drinking had meant to Dupont and its workers of all grades. According to Dave, his company believes mightily in A.A. By all odds the most stirring testimony at the industrial seminar was given by Editor Louis Selser. Mr. Selser spoke to us from the viewpoint of an employer, citizen and veteran newspaper man. It was about the most moving expression of utter confidence in Alcoholics Anonymous we had ever heard. It was almost too good; its implications brought us a little dismay. How could we fallible A.A's ever measure up to Mr. Selser's high hope for our future? We began to wonder if the A.A. reputation wasn't getting far better than its actual character. Next came that wonderful session on prisons. Our great friend, Warden Duffy told the startling story of our original group at San Quentin. His account of A.A.’s 5-year history there had a moving prelude. We heard a recording, soon for radio release, that thrillingly dramatized an actual incident of A.A. life within the walls. An alcoholic prisoner reacts bitterly to his confinement and develops amazing ingenuity in finding and drinking alcohol. Soon he becomes too ingenious. In the prison paint shop he discovers a promising fluid which he shares with his fellow alcoholics. It was deadly poison. Harrowing hours followed, during which several of them died. The whole prison was tense as the fatalities continued to mount. Nothing but quick blood transfusions could save those still living. The San Quentin A.A. Group volunteered instantly and spent the rest of that long night giving of themselves as they had never given before. A.A. hadn't been any too popular, but now prison morale hit an all time high and stayed there. Many of the survivors joined up. The first Prison Group had made its mark; A.A. had come to San Quentin to stay. Warden Duffy then spoke. Apparently we folks on the outside know nothing of prison sales resistance. The skepticism of San Quentin prisoners and keepers alike had been tremendous. They thought A.A. must be a racket. Or maybe a crackpot religion. Then, objected the prison board, why tempt providence by freely mixing prisoners with outsiders, alcoholic women especially. Bedlam would be unloosed. But our friend the Warden, somehow deeply convinced, insisted on A.A. To this day, he said, not a single prison rule has ever been broken at an A.A. meeting though hundreds of gatherings have been attended by hundreds of prisoners with almost no watching at all. Hardly needed is that solitary, sympathetic guard who sits in the back row. The Warden added that most prison authorities throughout the United States and Canada today share his views of Alcoholics Anonymous. Hitherto 8O% of paroled alcoholic prisoners had to be scooped up and taken back to jail. Many institutions now report that this percentage has dropped to one-half, even one third of what it used to be. Warden Duffy had traveled 2000 miles to be with us at Cleveland. We soon saw why. He came because he is a great human being. Once again, we A.A. ‘s sat and wondered how far our reputation had got ahead of our character. Naturally we men folk couldn't go to the meeting of the alcoholic ladies. But we make no doubt they devised ways to combat the crushing stigma that still rests on those poor gals who hit the bottle. Perhaps, too, our ladies had debated how to keep the big bad wolf at a respectful distance. But no, the A.A. sister transcribing this piece crisply assures me nothing of the sort was discussed. A wonderfully constructive meeting, she says it was. And about 500 girls attended. Just think of it, A.A. was four years old before we could sober up even one. Life for the alcoholic woman is no sinecure. Nor were other special sufferers overlooked, such as paid Intergroup secretaries, plain everyday secretaries, our newspaper editors and the wives and husbands of alcoholics, sometimes known as our "forgotten people." I'm sure the secretaries concluded that though sometimes unappreciated, they still love every moment of their work. What the editors decided, I haven't learned. Judging from their telling efforts over the years, it is altogether possible they came up with many an ingenious idea. Everybody agreed that the wives (and husbands) meeting was an eye opener. Some recalled how Anne S. in the Akron early days, had been boon companion and advisor to distraught wives. She clearly saw alcoholism as a family problem. Meanwhile we A. A.’s went all out on the work of sobering up incoming alkies by the thousands. Our good wives seemed entirely lost in that prodigious shuffle. Lots of the newer localities held closed meetings only, it looked like A.A. was going exclusive. But of late this trend has whipped about. More and more our partners have been taking the Twelve Steps into their own lives. As proof of this, witness the 12th step work they are doing with the wives and husbands of newcomers, and note well those wives' meetings now springing up everywhere. At their Cleveland gathering they invited us alcoholics to listen. Many an A.A. skeptic left that session convinced that our "forgotten ones" really had something. As one alkie put it - "The deep understanding and spirituality I felt in that wives' meeting was something out of the world." Far from it, the Cleveland Conference wasn't all meetings. Take that banquet, for example. Or should I say banquets? The original blueprint called for enough diners to fill the Rainbow Room of Hotel Carter. But the diners did much better. Gay banqueteers quickly overflowed the Ballroom. Finally the Carter Coffee Shop and Petit Cafe had to be cleared for the surging celebrants. Two orchestras were drafted and our fine entertainers found they had to play their acts twice, both upstairs and down. Though nobody turned up tight, you should have heard those A.A. ‘s sing. Slap-happy, they were. And why not? Yet a serious undertone crept in as we toasted the absent ones. We were first reminded of the absent by that A.A. from the Marshall Islands who, though all alone out there, still claimed his group had three members, to wit: "God, the book ‘Alcoholics Anonymous' and me." The first of his 7,000 mile journey to Cleveland had finished at Hawaii whence with great care and refrigeration he had brought in a cluster of floral tributes, those leis for which the Islands are famous. One of these was sent by the A.A. lepers at Molokai - those isolated A.A.'s who will always be of us, yet never with us. We swallowed hard, too, when we thought of Dr. Bob, alone at home, gravely ill. Another toast of the evening was to that A.A. who, more than anything, wanted to be at Cleveland when we came of age. Unhappily he never got to the Tradition meeting, he had been carried of f by a heart attack. His widow came in his place and she cheerfully sat out that great event with us. How well her quiet courage will be remembered. But at length gaiety took over; we danced till midnight. We knew the absent ones would want it that way. Several thousand of us crowded into the Cleveland Music Hall for the Tradition meeting, which was thought by most A.A.'s to be the high point of our Conference. Six old time stalwarts, coming from places as far flung as Boston and San Diego, beautifully reviewed the years of A.A. experience which had led to the writing of our Tradition. Then I was asked to sum up, which I did, saying: "That, touching all matters affecting A.A. unity, our common welfare should come first; that A.A. has now human authority -- only God as He may speak in our Group Conscience; that our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern; that any alcoholic may become an A.A. member if he says so -- we exclude no one; that every A.A. Group may manage its own affairs as it likes, provided surrounding groups are not harmed thereby; that we A.A.’s have but a single aim -- the carrying of our message to the alcoholic who still suffers; that in consequence we cannot finance, endorse or otherwise lend the name ‘Alcoholics Anonymous' to any other enterprise, however worthy; that A.A., as such, ought to remain poor, lest problems of property, management and money divert us from our sole aim; that we ought to be self-supporting, gladly paying our small expenses ourselves; that A.A. should forever remain non-professional, ordinary 12th step work never to be paid for; that, as a Fellowship, we should never be organized but may nevertheless create responsible Service Boards or Committees to insure us better propagation and sponsorship and that these agencies may engage full time workers for special tasks; that our public relations ought to proceed upon the principle of attraction rather than promotion, it being better to let our friends recommend us; that personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and pictures ought to be strictly maintained as our best protection against the temptations of power or personal ambition; and finally, that anonymity before the general public is the spiritual key to all our traditions, ever reminding us we are always to place principles before personalities, that we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all." So summing up, I then inquired if those present had any objections to the Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous as they stood. Hearing none, I offered our Tradition for adoption. Impressively unanimous, the crowd stood up. So ended that fine hour in which we of Alcoholics Anonymous took our destiny by the hand. On Saturday morning we listened to a panel of four A. A. ‘s who portrayed the spiritual side of Alcoholics Anonymous -- as they understood it. What with churchgoers and late-rising banqueteers, the Conference Committee had never guessed this would be a heavy duty session. But churchgoers had already returned from their devotions and hardly a soul stayed abed. Hotel Cleveland's ballroom was filled an hour before hand. People who have fear that A.A. is losing interest in things of the spirit should have been there. A hush fell upon the crowd as we paused for a moment of silence. Then came the speakers, earnest and carefully prepared, all of them. I cannot recall an A.A. gathering where the attention was more complete, or the devotion deeper. Yet some thought that those truly excellent speakers had, in their enthusiasm, unintentionally created a bit of a problem. It was felt the meeting had gone over far in the direction of religious comparison, philosophy and interpretation, when by firm long standing tradition we A.A.'s had always left such questions strictly to the chosen faith of each individual. One member rose with a word of caution. As I heard him, I thought, "What a fortunate occurrence. How well we shall always remember that A.A. is never to be thought of as a religion. How firmly we shall insist that A.A. membership cannot depend upon any particular belief whatever; that our twelve steps contain no article of religious faith except faith in God -- as each of us understands Him. How carefully we shall henceforth avoid any situation which could possibly lead us to debate matters of personal religious belief." It was, we felt, a great Sunday morning. That afternoon we filed into the Cleveland Auditorium. The big event was the appearance of Dr. Bob. Earlier we thought he'd never make it, his illness had continued so severe. Seeing him once again was an experience we seven thousand shall always treasure. He spoke in a strong, sure voice for ten minutes, and he left us a great heritage, a heritage by which we A. A. ‘s can surely grow. It was the legacy of one who had been sober since June 10, 1935, who saw our first Group to success, and one who, in the fifteen years since, had given both medical help and vital A.A. to 4,000 of our afflicted ones at good St. Thomas Hospital in Akron, the birthplace of Alcoholics Anonymous. Simplicity, devotion, steadfastness and loyalty; these, we remembered, were the hallmarks of that character which Dr. Bob had well implanted in so many of us. I, too, could gratefully recall that in all the years of our association there had never been an angry word between us. Such were our thoughts as we looked at Dr. Bob. Then for an hour I tried to sum up. Yet how could one add much to what we had all seen, heard and felt in those three wonderful days? With relief and certainty we had seen that A.A. could never become exhibitionistic or big business; that its early humility and simplicity is very much with us, that we are still mindful our beloved Fellowship is really God's success -- not ours. As evidence I shared a vision of A.A. as Lois and I saw it unfold on a distant beach head in far Norway. The vision began with one A.A. who listened to a voice in his conscience, and then said all he had. George, a Norwegian-American, came to us at Greenwich, Connecticut, five years ago. His parents back home hadn't heard from him in twenty. He began to send letters telling them of his new freedom. Back came very disquieting news. The family reported his only brother in desperate condition, about to lose all through alcohol. What could be done? The A.A. from Greenwich had a long talk with his wife. Together they took a decision to sell their little restaurant, all they had. They would go to Norway to help the brother. A few weeks later an airliner landed them at Oslo. They hastened from field to town and thence 25 mile down the fjord where the ailing brother lived. He was in a bad state all right. Unfortunately, though, everybody saw it but him. He'd have no A.A., no American nonsense. He an alcoholic? Why certainly not! Of course the man from Greenwich had heard such objections before. But now this familiar argument was hard to take. Maybe he had sold all he had for no profit to anybody. George persisted every bit he dared, but finally surmised it was no use. Determined to start an A.A. Group in Norway, anyhow, he began a round of Oslo's clergy and physicians. Nothing happened, not one of them offered him a single prospect. Greatly cast down, he and his wife thought it high time they got back to Connecticut. But Providence took a hand. The rebellious Norwegian obligingly tore off on one of his fantastic periodics. In the final anguish of his hangover he cried out to the man from Greenwich, "Tell me again of the ‘Alcoholics Anonymous', What, oh my brother, shall I do?" With perfect simplicity George retold the A.A. story. When he had done, he wrote out, in his all but forgotten Norwegian, a longhand translation of a little pamphlet published by the White Plains, N.Y. Group. It contained, of course, our Twelve Steps of recovery. The family from Connecticut then flew away home. The Norwegian brother, himself a typesetter, commenced to place tiny ads in the Oslo newspapers. He explained he was a recovered alcoholic who wished to help others. At last a prospect appeared. When the newcomer was told the story and shown the White Plains pamphlet, he, too, sobered instantly. The founders to be then placed more ads. Three years after, Lois and I alighted upon that same airfield. We then learned that Norway has hundreds of A.A.'s. And good ones. The men of Oslo had already carried the life -- giving news to other Norwegian cities and these beacons burned brightly. It had all been just as simple, but just as mysterious as that. In the final moments of our historic Conference it seemed fitting to read from the last chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous. These were the words we took home with us: "Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find, and join us. We shall be with you, in the Fellowship of The Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the road of happy destiny. May God bless you and keep you -until then." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3596. . . . . . . . . . . . What Happened to Those Who Left? From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/20/2006 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What Happened to Those Who Left? By Bill W., General Service Conference, 1965 A.A. members can soberly ask themselves what became of the 600,000 alcoholics who approached the Fellowship during the past 30 years but "who did not stay," Bill W., surviving co-founder, suggested in a moving address to the Conference at its closing session. "How much and how often did we fail all these?" Bill asked. "When we remember that in the 30 years of A.A. existence we have reached less than ten per cent of those who might of been willing to approach us, we began to get an idea of the immensity of our task, and of the responsibilities with which we will always be confronted." In no circumstances should members feel that the Alcoholics Anonymous is the know-all and do-all of alcoholism, Bill noted, citing the "perhaps one hundred agencies" in the United States and Canada alone that are engaged in "research, alcohol education and rehabilitation." "We should very seriously ask ourselves how many alcoholics have gone on drinking because we have failed to cooperate in good spirit with these many agencies - whether they be good, bad or indifferent," the co-founder remarked. "No alcoholic should go mad or die merely because he did not come straight to A.A. at the beginning." "All of the basic components of A.A. were supplied by others, Bill pointed out, "although we drunks certainly did put A.A. together. Here, especially, our maxim should be ‘Let's be friendly with our friends." Bill said that at certain great turning points in A.A. history, members have backed away from what should have been "clearly visible responsibilities." He cited the old-timers who almost prevented preparation of the Big Book "because some avowed we did not need it," while others shrank from the risks involved. There was "a great outcry" against formation of the General Service Conference, he recalled. "There was almost no belief that such a linkage could be effectively forged; even an attempt at such a project would ruin us, many thought." The spiritual assets of A.A. have "in God's time" invariably come to exceed even such large liabilities, Bill said, "A.A. recovery goes forward on a large scale. Practice of A.A.'s Twelve Traditions has amazingly cemented our unity. Our General Service Office and General Service Conference have made possible a wide spreading of our message at home and abroad. Our pains and our necessities first called us reluctantly to responsibility. But in the latter years a joyous willingness and a confident faith have more and more permeated all the affairs of our Fellowship." Fear of negative factors should not deceive members into absurd rationalizations, Bill suggested. "In the fear of accumulated wealth and bureaucracy, we should not discover an alibi for failure to pay A.A.’s legitimate service expenses. For fear of controversy, our leadership should not go timid when lively debate and forthright action is a necessity. And for fear of accumulating prestige and power, we should never fail to endow our trusted leaders with proper authority to act for us." "Let us never fear needed change," Bill urged. "Once a need becomes clearly apparent in an individual, a Group, or in A.A. as a whole, it has long since been found out that we cannot stand still and look the other way." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3597. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholics Anonymous in a Postwar Emergency From: Fiona Dodd . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/20/2006 5:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Alcoholics Anonymous in a Postwar Emergency By W.W. - One of the Founders From the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol Vol. 6, No. 2, (c) Sept. 1945 What is the picture of alcoholism in the days ahead? The opinion of one of my friends indicates what the possibilities may be. With the emphasis characteristic of true alcoholics he said, "It looks like hell to me." I asked why. "Practically the whole world has gone neurotic," he replied. "Mankind is on an emotional jag. Nation against nation, class against class - all clamoring for security, all crying that if only other people were different how happy we would be. Hate, fear, envy, boredom, insecurity, acquisitiveness - all the negatives - running riot as never before, breeding neurotics as a malarial' swamp does mosquitoes. Conflict - national, social, personal - conflict that gets nowhere, that never gets settled. This is our modern world." "Now, I ask you," he continued, "under these appalling conditions what will sensitive, frustrated people do? Aren't they going to drink - and not for fun, either? Aren't they going to use alcohol as an emotional pain killer? Yes, they will try to get away from themselves and their problems -- not for temporary release but for keeps. Even as you and I once did, they will try to find release in alcohol. Many of them will become alcoholics - you and I ought to know!" Since the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol is primarily a scientific journal, my friend's statement may seem somewhat out of place here. It may not too accurately forecast the future. But this one opinion does reflect what most members of Alcoholics Anonymous think they see coming. The question then arises: What can our 17,000 members do that will alleviate this picture? Although our contribution to recovery from alcoholism has been described by friends as significant and encouraging, no one is more aware than we that what has been done is but a start. Our work so far is but a beginning in helping to overcome an extensive malady to which the recent war gave fresh and ominous import. The average member of Alcoholics Anonymous does not suppose that we have a cure all. What we promise for the future, however, is that we shall offer unstinted aid to those alcoholics who wish to recover. We members of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that we shall be able to handle almost any number of alcoholic cases -- tens of thousands if necessary -- which may be referred to us in the postwar. period. Nor is this statement purely surmise. Today some 500 groups comprising 17,000 members are to be found in America. We have groups in nearly every state of the Union and in several Canadian Provinces. This means that most cases of alcoholism are within easy reach of Alcoholics Anonymous groups. The question is often asked, "Wouldn't too rapid growth be bad, both for new alcoholics and for Alcoholics Anonymous itself?" Some of us used to think so, but several experiences of quick expansion have largely dissipated that fear. We had a striking experience at Cleveland, Ohio. In the fall of 1939 Cleveland had, perhaps, 30 members. Most of. them had become Alcoholics Anonymous by traveling to the nearby city of Akron where our very first group had taken root in the summer of 1935. At this juncture the Cleveland Plain Dealer published a striking and forceful series of articles about us. Placed on the editorial page, these pieces told the people of Cleveland that Alcoholics Anonymous worked; that it cost nothing; that it stood ready to help any alcoholic in town who really wanted to get well. Cleveland quickly became Alcoholics Anonymous conscious. Hundreds of inquiries by phone and mail descended upon the Plain Dealer and the expectant but nervous members of Alcoholics Anonymous. The rush was so great that new members, sober themselves but a week or two, had to be used to instruct the still newer arrivals. Several private hospitals threw open their doors to cope with the emergency and were so pleased with the result that they have cooperated with us ever since. To the great surprise of everyone, this rapid growth, hectic though it was, did prove very successful. Within 90 days the original group of 30 had expanded to 300; in 6 months we had about 500; and within 2 years we had mushroomed to about 1,000 members distributed among a score of groups in the Cleveland area. Although we have no precise figures, it is probably fair to say that 3 out of 4 who came during this period, and who have since remained with the groups, have recovered from their alcoholism. Growth so spectacular as this sometimes does cause a certain amount of internal confusion. And it may be, during such periods, that some of the more difficult alcoholics cannot be helped adequately. We know, however, that most of these seeming failures receive enough indoctrination to come back later on. In any case we are sure that the net benefits of even the most rapid growth far outweigh any possible liability. Most of us are satisfied, from this and like experiences, that any Alcoholics Anonymous group could double its membership every few months if put to the test. This is why we believe that with some 500 active centers we have the basis for taking care of practically any number of alcoholics as fast as they may come to us. We have been able to give so many groups their start with little or no personal contact that we do not anticipate any great difficulty in foreign countries. It was discovered several years ago that the "A.A." job could be done solely through correspondence and our literature. At New York we maintain a Central Office. Writing from this point our national secretary has often been able to bring together groups of alcoholics in distant communities who had previously responded to our publicity. By sending our literature and writing them as their problems arose our secretary has fostered many successful groups of Alcoholics Anonymous. Besides those so started in this country, there are now conspicuous examples in Hawaii and Australia. Sooner or later, of course, such "mail order" groups are reached by our traveling members whose business or pleasure takes them to distant places. Now that our methods and results are better known we are receiving splendid cooperation everywhere from clergymen, doctors, employers, editors - in fact, from whole communities. While there is still a well understood reluctance on the part of city and private hospitals to admit alcoholic patients, we are pleased to report a great improvement in this direction. But we are still very far, in most places, from having anything like adequate hospital accommodations. Over and above this traditional activity, we may give some counsel to those who work upon various aspects of the total problem. It may be possible that our experience fits us for a special task. Writing of Alcoholics Anonymous, Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick once said: "Gothic cathedral windows are not the sole things which can be truly seem only from within. Alcoholism is another. All outside views are clouded and unsure." Thus, with our inside view - one best seen by those drinkers who have suffered from alcoholism - we would help those working on alcohol problems who have not had our first-hand experience. While we members of Alcoholics Anonymous are not scientists, our special insight may help science; while we are of all religions and sometimes none, we can assist clergymen; although not educators, we shall, perhaps, aid in clearing away unsure views; not penologists, we do help in prison work; not a business or organization, we nevertheless advise employers; not sociologists, we constantly serve families, friends and communities; not prosecutors or judges, we try to promote understanding and justice; emphatically not doctors, we do minister to the sick. Taking no sides on controversial questions, we may sometimes mediate fruitless antagonism which have so often blocked effective cooperation among those who would solve the riddle of the alcoholic. These are the activities and aspirations of thousands of the members of Alcoholics Anonymous. While our organization as a whole has but one aim - to help the alcoholic who wishes to recover - there are few of us, indeed, who as individuals do not wish to meet some of the broader responsibilities for which we may be especially fitted. That alcoholism, compulsive drinking, is becoming recognized as the illness which it really is - as not only a moral problem but our fourth largest public health problem; and that so many constructive forces are being assembled to cope with it - notably those stemming just now from Yale - these are the things for which we Alcoholics Anonymous are deeply grateful. If alcoholism should increase in the postwar period, the hope of its ultimate control seems possible. Brighter pages ought soon to relieve the long, dark annals which record the problems of this baffling malady. Of that increasing knowledge and guidance, we of Alcoholics Anonymous are supremely confident. Our collaboration will be available to all individuals and agencies who may engage in helping the problem drinker in the postwar world. From the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol Vol. 6, No. 2, (c) Sept. 1945 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3598. . . . . . . . . . . . "Over to God" vs. "over to the care of God" From: trixiebellaa . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2006 9:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi History lovers, On page 60 of the Big Book it says "we decided to turn our will and our life over to God as we understood Him." But on page 59, the Third Step itself says "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to THE CARE OF God as we understood Him." One of our group asked why the wording was different. Did the word care come after any thought to change the meaning in any way? Any help would be appreciated. Thank you, Tracy the big book study group england IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3599. . . . . . . . . . . . Herbert Wallace From: hjfree2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2006 7:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The PBS Show History's Detectives is showing this next week ANyone have a preview ? alcoholics anonymous letter AIRED: Season 4, Episode 7 THE DETECTIVE: Gwen Wright THE PLACE: Laurel, Maryland THE CASE: A man from Laurel, Maryland owns a mysterious letter that was written in 1942. It's a tribute addressed to his grandmother on the occasion of his grandfather, Herbert Wallace's death, acknowledging Wallace's support for the organization Alcoholics Anonymous. The letter makes it sound as if Herbert Wallace was deeply involved in A.A. Yet our amateur History Detective wants to know how his supposedly sober attorney grandfather was being so lavishly praised by the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous: "We of the A.A. Group have never had a better friend, nor a stauncher one, than Herb when the going was hard," the note states. History Detectives searches New York's Westchester County, Brooklyn and Manhattan for personal insight into a movement that has changed the lives of millions worldwide and helped shape society's attitudes about alcoholism IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3600. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: The Rewards and Ann Croft From: Jocelyn . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2006 7:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII According to the Akron OH Archives http://www.akronaaarchives.org/annC.htm Ann C. from Niles OH wrote this "a number of years before" the 1985 Internation Convention in Montreal, Canada where she set it to tape at the Oldtimers Meeting. She wrote it to show the contrast that can take place in any of our lives if we will try to follow the AA principles. The Twelve Rewards of the Twelve Step Program We can all have Hope, instead of desperation; Faith, instead of despair; Courage, instead of fear; Peace of Mind, instead of confusion; Self-respect, instead of self-contempt; Self-confidence, instead of helplessness; The respect of others, instead of their pity and contempt; A clean conscience, instead of a sense of guilt; Real friendships, instead of loneliness; A clean pattern of life, instead of a purposeless existence; the love and understanding of our families, instead of their doubts and fears; and the freedom of a happy life, instead of the bondage of an alcoholic obsession. All this and more through AA, are we grateful enough? Gratitude will continue the miracle of your sobriety, I found that out. --as written by Ann C. of Niles, Ohio She shares her rememberances of early Akron A.A. in "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" on pgs. 34, 245, 333, 342. Jocelyn Pittsburgh PA John Lee wrote: The Rewards are a personal reworking of the 9th step promises. Ann Croft of Akron composed the 12 Rewards. She was the first woman in Akron AA to stay sober. Ann is referenced twice in Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers. Ann wrote the Rewards to indicate how some of the Promises had come true in her life. Ann never intended that the Rewards would come true generally for members of the Fellowship. We may not get back the love and understanding of our families, for instance. love+service john lee member pittsburgh robin_foote wrote: Hi AA history lovers, I recently heard the following on a track recorded by Searcy W. I have heard various forms of this over the years and find it follows on from the 'promises'. I have seen something similar in the Big Book but cannot find it. Was Searcy the originator or is it from another source? Anyone know? THE TWELVE REWARDS OF SOBRIETY By Searcy W., 55 years sober as at 2001 aged 90. o Faith instead of despair. o Courage instead of fear. o Hope instead of desperation. o Peace of mind instead of confusion. o Real friendships instead of loneliness. o Self-respect instead of self-contempt. o Self-confidence instead of helplessness. o A clean conscious instead of a sense of guilt. o The respect of others instead of their pity and contempt. o A clean pattern of living instead of a hopeless existence. o The love and understanding of our families instead of their doubts and fears. o The freedom of a happy life instead of the bondage of an alcoholic obsession. A great source of AA tracks in MP3 format is at http://www.xa-speakers.org/ located in Iceland with over 800 tracks including AA Founders. Perfect for my iPod. Robin F. Caloundra, Australia. Page 55 of the Big Book awoke my spirit. www.BriefTSF.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Groups are talking. Weandacute;re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3601. . . . . . . . . . . . Herbert Wallace From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2006 12:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently heard that there was a PBS television show called History Detectives airing a show about a letter from Bill Wilson to a Herbert Wallace of Maryland thanking him for his staunch support of AA. It was written in 1942 and is on Alcoholic Foundation letterhead. I haven't seen the show but they are repeated now and again. Anyone have any information on Mr Wallace? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3602. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: The Rewards and Ann Croft From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2006 11:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Could that have been Anne Craw of Niles, OH? --- John Lee wrote: > The Rewards are a personal reworking of the 9th step > promises. Ann Croft of Akron composed the 12 > Rewards. She was the first woman in Akron AA to stay > sober. Ann is referenced twice in Doctor Bob and > the Good Oldtimers. > Ann wrote the Rewards to indicate how some of the > Promises had come true in her life. Ann never > intended that the Rewards would come true generally > for members of the Fellowship. We may not get back > the love and understanding of our families, for > instance. > love+service > john lee > member > pittsburgh > > robin_foote wrote: > Hi AA history lovers, > > I recently heard the following on a track recorded > by Searcy W. I have heard > various forms of this over the years and find it > follows on from the > 'promises'. > > I have seen something similar in the Big Book but > cannot find it. > > Was Searcy the originator or is it from another > source? Anyone know? > > THE TWELVE REWARDS OF SOBRIETY > > By Searcy W., 55 years sober as at 2001 aged 90. > > o Faith instead of despair. > > o Courage instead of fear. > > o Hope instead of desperation. > > o Peace of mind instead of confusion. > > o Real friendships instead of loneliness. > > o Self-respect instead of self-contempt. > > o Self-confidence instead of helplessness. > > o A clean conscious instead of a sense of guilt. > > o The respect of others instead of their pity and > contempt. > > o A clean pattern of living instead of a hopeless > existence. > > o The love and understanding of our families instead > of their doubts and > fears. > > o The freedom of a happy life instead of the bondage > of an alcoholic > obsession. > > A great source of AA tracks in MP3 format is at > http://www.xa-speakers.org/ > located in Iceland with over 800 tracks including AA > Founders. Perfect for > my iPod. > > Robin F. > > Caloundra, Australia. > > Page 55 of the Big Book awoke my spirit. > > www.BriefTSF.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new > Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3603. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 90 meetings in 90 days From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/25/2006 8:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The story about Cleveland and the Salvation Army is a fabrication. Evangelical Deaconess Hospital was the first hospital they worked with and they were in no way affiliated other than an agreement with the hospital to allow the alcoholics certain privacy and visiting rights from sponsors and other AA members. Post Shaker Sanitarium (Larry Jewell was there) and Cleveland Clinic as well as others who had worked out arrangements with the Cleveland Central Committee Hospital Committee (and Clarence)there was NO affiliation. There were hospital rules developed and as long as the hospital was open to allowing those rules..... people were brought there. The Salvation Army was asked if they were interested in having AA meetings brought to their facilities later on. The first AA meeting held in a Salvation Army facility was in Cleveland. There are no records by either the Hospital Committee, the Central Committee or notice in the Central Bulletin relating to any deal with the Salvation Army about hospitalizing alcoholics made or offered by AA. The records kept by the Cenrtal Committee were rather complete and thorough. This is just another way that disinformation gets passed along as fact. As far as "an article." I would presume this was in reference to the series of articles written by Elrick Davis and not the single article/sermon "Mr. X. and Alcoholics Anonymous" by Dillworth Lupton. --- Toto24522@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/18/06 10:09:27 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > serenityodaat@yahoo.se writes: > ><< The saying "90 meetings in 90 days" is pretty > common > in AA in Sweden. I recall that i once heard on a > speaker tape that this saying was "invented" > Cleveland AA in the 50's where they had some sort > of > "contract" with the Salvation army, that if they > took > drunks to 90 meetings the Salvation army would let > the > person stay at the shelter for 90 days. > Does anyone have any info around this? > Love Anders > > > From the website: > > http://communities.msn.com/A12StepRecoveryDiner/thoughtsonavisittoakron.msnw > > As told by Chief Blackhawk (Detroit, 40 years in > October, > 1998), sitting on the front porch of Dr. Bob's house > at > 855 Ardmore in Akron, Ohio to Floyd H. of Spring, > Texas. > > ORGANIZATIONS > > There are vital reasons that we are not allied with > any sects, denominations, politics, organizations, > or > institutions. You want to know what they are? > > The Cleveland group's experience with an outside > organization taught us about the danger of trying > that. > Get in with another organization, they bring their > values and opinions and they seldom are what we know > works in helping drunks. When the Clarence Snyder > (Home Brewmeister) group formed in Cleveland, an > article > ran in the Cleveland newspaper, The Plain Dealer. > > The group was flooded with requests for help, and > many > were low-bottoms who needed 3-5 days of > hospitalization. > After being turned down by all the local hospitals > and > after helping the son of a person associated with > the > Salvation Army, that organization told Clarence > they'd > make some beds available for alcoholics. In > accepting > their aid, two things happened. First, AA became > allied > with an outside organization; next, they fell under > that > organization's philosophy about recovering from > alcoholism > and compromised what the alcoholics knew really > worked. > > In order to get the beds, the AA's violated their > own > procedures. I asked: So what was that > organization's > philosophy that went against what AA's had been > doing? > They answered: The Cleveland Salvation Army had a > policy > of limiting bed space for anyone to a total of three > months. Their motive was noble: We'll help you > down-and-out's to get by until you get a job and a > place > of your own, but to motivate you, weire putting a > time > limit on our assistance -- you have three months, > max. > Now, for the alkies coming in, they told them the > same > thing but added, You also have to visit with a > recovered > alcoholic daily; that is, you have to meet with them > 90 > times in 90 days, and we're gonna check to make sure > you do. Miss a meeting and you have no bed. You're > back > on the streets. So instead of taking the drunks > through > in 3 or 4 hours the way we always did it, or a > matter > of days at the most, we're now into this 90-in-90 > plan. > > I said: So the Cleveland Salvation Army introduced > this > thing we hear so often today -- ˜Go to 90 meetings > in > 90 days? > > They said, Exactly. And the early Cleveland AA's, > desperate to get beds they thought they had to have, > compromised their approach to working the steps > quickly. But to their great credit, the Cleveland > AA's > keep meticulous records with Clarence's insistence) > and their stats revealed that no one gained any > long-term sobriety using that plan. So Cleveland > separated itself from the Salvation Army with a > valuable lesson: stick to the methods proven > successful -- alkies taking alkies through the steps > and doing it pronto. After Cleveland got back to > doing that instead of the 90-in-90-Salvation-Army > plan, > the AA's got a 93% success rate over the next > several > decades. > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3604. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Inacuracies in the Lois Wilson Book From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/18/2006 11:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I now find a need to withdraw my statment on inaccuracies. Sammy M . IS the neice of Jimmy B. and not the sister of Fitz M. The confusion came about due to the photo that I have of the gravesites and the fact that I was standing next to the grave of Fitz's sister during the graveyard talk part of the workshop...SORRY!!! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3605. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: In what order did earliest AA ask people to read the Big Book? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/24/2006 10:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi In what order did earliest AA ask people to read the Big Book? My suspicion and best educated guess (and I can't prove it one way or another) would be that earliest AA likely asked people to read the Big Book the same way most people read most other books - start with the first written page and proceed to the last written page. But it is not beyond AA members, especially contemporary AA members, to take something as simple as that and add a host of esoteric and endearing variations to it. There are also a number of suggestions in the Big Book itself on reading the stories (in more than "There Is A Solution). Here's some information that might be of interest regarding the basic text and personal stories. Quite often members will trumpet the "basic text" of the Big Book and give short-shrift to the personal stories. The "basic text" very much suggests otherwise. Also, in "AA Comes of Age" (pg 164) Bill W wrote "We had not gone much farther with the text of the book when it was evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a story or case history section. We would have to produce evidence in the form of living proof, written testimonials of our membership itself. It was felt also that the story section could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the text itself might not." In going through the Big Book, there are the following citations regarding the personal stories with page number references for the 4th and 1st editions (in parentheses). The page numbers differ because in the 1st edition "The Doctor's Opinion" started as page 1 as opposed to "Bill's Story." Bill W altered the page numbering in 1955 when the 2nd edition was published. Nobody really knows why Bill did this but there has been some very creative speculation on the matter. References to the personal stories in the Big Book "basic text" are as follows: Page 29 "There Is A Solution" (pages 39-40 in the 1st edition): Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two ("forty-three" in the 3rd edition, "three dozen" in the 2nd edition and "more than a score" in the 1st edition *) personal experiences. Each individual, in the personal stories, describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way he established his relationship with God. These give a fair cross section of our membership and a clear-cut idea of what has actually happened in their lives. (* my note: a "score" equals 20). We hope no one will consider these self-revealing accounts in bad taste. Our hope is that many alcoholic men and women, desperately in need, will see these pages, and we believe that it is only by fully disclosing ourselves and our problems that they will be persuaded to say, "Yes, I am one of them too; I must have this thing." Page 50 "We Agnostics" (page 62 in the 1st edition): In our personal stories you will find a wide variation in the way each teller approaches and conceives of the Power which is greater than himself. Whether we agree with a particular approach or conception seems to make little difference. Experience has taught us that these are matters about which, for our purpose, we need not be worried. They are questions for each individual to settle for himself. On one proposition, however, these men and women are strikingly agreed. Every one of them has gained access to, and believes in, a Power greater than himself. This Power has in each case accomplished the miraculous, the humanly impossible. As a celebrated American statesman put it, "Let's look at the record." Page 55 "We Agnostics" (page 68 in the 1st edition): In this book you will read the experience of a man who thought he was an atheist. His story is so interesting that some of it should be told now. His change of heart was dramatic, convincing, and moving. Page 58 "How It Works" (page 70 in the 1st edition): Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now (*). If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps. (my note: contrary to popular belief this was not posited to be the format for a speaker meeting - it simply called attention to the personal stories in the book). Pages 112-113 "To Wives" (page 126 in the 1st edition): The chances are he would. Show him your copy of this book and tell him what you have found out about alcoholism. Show him that as alcoholics, the writers of the book understand. Tell him some of the interesting stories you have read. If you think he will be shy of a spiritual remedy, ask him to look at the chapter on alcoholism. Then perhaps he will be interested enough to continue. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3606. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Herbert Wallace From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2006 5:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mitch, Herb Wallace was an export lawyer in New York. The letter in question was actually a letter of condolence to Herb's wife, as Herb had just passed on. He appears to have been an Oxford Grouper who remained on good terms with Bill and the other alcoholics who had left that fellowship. I believe Herb's grandson found the letter and must have submitted it to History Detectives. The show is scheduled to appear here in Toledo at 9 p.m. Monday, July 31st. It may be on different times in other places. I was interviewed for the program, though not as an AA member. (I checked with GSO prior to accepting the assignment.) The interviewer was Gwen Wright, who appears regularly on this show. Much of the interview is in front of Bill's former home at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn. It will probably be obvious to AA members that I'm in the fellowship, but I was told that this was okay if I wasn't identified as a member. I didn't know anything about History Detectives until this came up and I've seen only two programs. But it is an interesting show and brings in a lot of good history with it. They do three segments during the hour, and this one is titled "Alcoholics Anonymous Letter." I hope our History Lovers will watch it and send me their comments. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell K." To: Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 12:18 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Wallace >I recently heard that there was a PBS television show called History > Detectives airing a show about a letter from Bill Wilson to a Herbert > Wallace of Maryland thanking him for his staunch support of AA. It was > written in 1942 and is on Alcoholic Foundation letterhead. I haven't > seen the show but they are repeated now and again. > > Anyone have any information on Mr Wallace? > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com > 12:09:27 AM ET - 7/27/2006 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3607. . . . . . . . . . . . AA commonplace books From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/28/2006 10:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I write in hopes that history lovers will be able to help me clarify the publication history of several "commonplace books"-- short volumes of quotations, aphorisms, etc. compiled for the edification of the editor and the readers. I encountered several of these while working in the Kirk Collection on Alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous at Brown University, and would like to know more about their origins, specifically who compiled them, and when and where they were originally published. The titles of these works are: -- *Grateful Thoughts Favorites* -- *Handles for Sobriety* -- *Handles and Hodge-Podge* -- *Stinkin' Thinkin' (Thoughts For)* Regarding *Grateful Thoughts Favorites,* I spoke to the current publisher, Dan S., and he told me that the book was the work of Mose Y., of Fredericksburgh, OH, but that he did not know the original publication date. The edition I saw looked like it was from the mid- to late-1980s. Regarding the other three, Kyle, the current owner/publisher of Bright Star Press in Drain, Ore., told me that they were the work of Walter S., the press's founder, but again did not know the original publication dates. The editions I saw looked like they were from the early-1990s. I would like to resolve these accounts of authorship with the ones offered in Charles Bishop and Bill Pittman's *To Be Continued,* which lists the two *Handles* volumes as the work of the Cleveland Central Committee, and to get a ballpark figure of when they were first published and when the reprinting of them began. I will be grateful for any information. Thanks in advance, Trysh Travis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3608. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: In what order did earliest AA ask people to read the Big Book? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2006 9:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Arthur, My experience may shed some light on this "reading order" thing. At age 23, living in Ventura, Calif., I went to my first AA meeting, in nearby Santa Paula, in October, 1948. The second member I met was Carl Scott, one of the first 2,000 AA members, who had moved out to Ventura from Akron. A few minutes later, I met his son-in-law, Eddie McCann, one of the first 200 members, also from Akron. But the dynamo in the group was Carl's wife Nellie, not an alcoholic but probably one of the most enthusiastic advocates of the program I've ever seen. She insisted on giving me the Big Book to read and also urged me to read the personal stories first. I believe today that this reflected a general view in Akron, because this couple had lived and breathed with all the founders of the program there. I took her advice and did read the personal stories before going back to the first part of the book. Of course I realized that Bill's Story was a personal story and read that right away. It took me another 18 months before I managed to establish what I hope will turn out to be lifelong sobriety. But I do have fond memories and considerable gratitude for the help and advice Carl and Nellie gave me, and I think this gave me good information that I finally put to use when I was really ready. Today, of course, we have thousands of personal stories on the AA Grapevine Digital Archive and tapes from around the world. It's always good to keep on reading them no matter how long one has been sober. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3609. . . . . . . . . . . . History and Archives at Lebanon, Pennsylvania From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2006 2:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Report on the History and Archives Gathering held in Lebanon, Pennyslvania, on June 24, 2006 Lebanon is in southeastern Pennsylvania, and within fairly easy traveling distance from Philadelphia, Baltimore (Maryland), Wilmington (Delaware), and Trenton (New Jersey). It is only about 125 miles west of New York City. So it is part of the general area where a lot of early AA history occurred, and the archives from that part of the U.S. are extremely important for people researching early AA history. A lot of the people who were involved in writing the Big Book and so on, whose names are familiar to all historians of early AA history, were active in that area of the U.S. A repeat conference is going to be held next June. The plans are to keep using this conference as a place for AA historians from the east coast to report on their research and compare notes with one another. And the inclusion of people like Mitchell K. and his talk on early Cleveland AA means that reports on research into other parts of the early AA world, including the Akron/Cleveland area of the Midwest, are also going to be welcome. It was also a marvelous opportunity for a lot of us "AAHistoryLovers" to meet in person for the first time, which was a lot of fun for everyone. Al Welch came up from Baltimore to attend the conference, and has given us a report on what went on. ______________________________ From: "Al Welch" welch@a-1associates.com (welch at a-1associates.com) Had an opportunity to attend the "Multi-District History and Archives Gathering" in Lebanon, Pennsylvania, last Saturday (June 24, 2006). The event was really great. Jared Lobdell headed up the entire event and participated in some of the presentations. Mitch Klein gave a really great presentation of his experiences with Clarence Snyder. It was a warm and genuine expression of history. Glenn Chesnut, the lead speaker, was very explicit in his topic of writing about AA history. He and I had exchanged some "shaggy dog" stories over the last several years and the chance to meet him in person (as well as the others) was a personally fulfilling experience since we both shared a friendship with Nancy Olson. There was also a good panel presentation given mainly by "Shaky Mike" Gwirtz from the Philadelphia area and a fellow named "BJ' concerning Fitz Mayo and Jim Burwell who were responsible for getting AA going in eastern PA and MD. Bill Lash taped all of the conference except for a sharing from an old-timer, Chet H., who didn't want to be taped. Good lunch provided and enough coffee and donuts for an army! Personally, I was almost overwhelmed with the entire event and it's hard to "whelm" me! Al Welch ______________________________ The text of Glenn C.'s talk is posted at http://hindsfoot.org/penntalk.html "Writing Local A.A. History: Stories as the Vessels of Wisdom and Grace " ______________________________ For recordings of the speakers and panels contact Bill Lash: "Bill Lash" barefootbill@optonline.net (barefootbill at optonline.net) Hey Mr. Glenn! It was great to finally meet you and that PA Conference was very cool. Yes, please refer anyone interested in getting the recordings of that weekend to my email address. There were 5 CDs for the set and they cost $34 plus $4 for shipping. I no longer have cassettes because no one buys them anymore. Thanks, take it easy and God bless. Just Love, Barefoot Bill ______________________________ Disk 1: Intro. by Jared L. and "Doing the Steps with Clarence S." by Mitchell K. Disk 2: "Writing AA History" by Glenn C. Disk 3: "Proposed AA History 1955 to 2000" panel discussion and "Problems Writing AA History" panel discussion. Disk 4: Panel on "Fitz M. and Jimmy B." Disk 5: Panel on "The Founders in Eastern Pennsylvania" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3610. . . . . . . . . . . . The Traditions From: johncseibert . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2006 1:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was recently asked about the text of tradition two in the 12x12. Specifically I was asked if I knew who it was Bill was referring to when he wrote: "Almost timidly, one of my friends began to speak." pg 137 Also they were curious as to why Bill mentions this story about being offered a position at Townes Hospital in the text of tradition 2 instead of either tradition 6 (Never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise etc.) or tradition 8 (Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional etc.) unless it's to emphasize the point of a "Loving God as he may express himself through our group conscience" being the guiding forcxe of A.A. Can any of you learned folks answer these two questions? Service is Love John S. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3611. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Inacuracies in the Lois Wilson Book From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/26/2006 9:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The niece's name is Sally M not Sammy M. A lot of AA's rumors get started due to inaccurate posting of AA's history or by inaccurate sharing at an AA meeting .People take it as being gospel and repeat misinformation. That is how these rumors get started. Any information I post can be documented and substantiated. "I think I remembers" should not be considered fact until they can be substantiated. Shakey Mike G. Director Archives Committee South Eastern Penna Intergroup Assn. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3612. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: The Rewards and Ann Croft From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/27/2006 6:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In an audiotape that I have the name is Anne Craw and she is from Niles Ohio.While being credited with writing the Rewards, she stated that she and others seated at a table in a diner after a meeting wrote the 12 Rewards. It was not a sole endeavor. She also states that as a young girl she worked in the same building in Akron Ohio that Dr. Bob had his medical office, and would often see him at lunchtime in the cafeteria. She says that he never ate lunch and always smelt like sauerkraut (this was long before he met Bill W.) Kilroy W. 4021 Club Philadelphia PA --- mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com wrote: From: "Mitchell K." To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Rewards and Ann Croft Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 20:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Could that have been Anne Craw of Niles, OH? --- John Lee wrote: > The Rewards are a personal reworking of the 9th step > promises. Ann Croft of Akron composed the 12 > Rewards. She was the first woman in Akron AA to stay > sober. Ann is referenced twice in Doctor Bob and > the Good Oldtimers. > Ann wrote the Rewards to indicate how some of the > Promises had come true in her life. Ann never > intended that the Rewards would come true generally > for members of the Fellowship. We may not get back > the love and understanding of our families, for > instance. > love+service > john lee > member > pittsburgh > > robin_foote wrote: > Hi AA history lovers, > > I recently heard the following on a track recorded > by Searcy W. I have heard > various forms of this over the years and find it > follows on from the > 'promises'. > > I have seen something similar in the Big Book but > cannot find it. > > Was Searcy the originator or is it from another > source? Anyone know? > > THE TWELVE REWARDS OF SOBRIETY > > By Searcy W., 55 years sober as at 2001 aged 90. > > o Faith instead of despair. > > o Courage instead of fear. > > o Hope instead of desperation. > > o Peace of mind instead of confusion. > > o Real friendships instead of loneliness. > > o Self-respect instead of self-contempt. > > o Self-confidence instead of helplessness. > > o A clean conscious instead of a sense of guilt. > > o The respect of others instead of their pity and > contempt. > > o A clean pattern of living instead of a hopeless > existence. > > o The love and understanding of our families instead > of their doubts and > fears. > > o The freedom of a happy life instead of the bondage > of an alcoholic > obsession. > > A great source of AA tracks in MP3 format is at > http://www.xa-speakers.org/ > located in Iceland with over 800 tracks including AA > Founders. Perfect for > my iPod. > > Robin F. > > Caloundra, Australia. > > Page 55 of the Big Book awoke my spirit. > > www.BriefTSF.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new > Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links _____________________________________________________________ A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3613. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Traditions/cross talk From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2006 2:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It's interesting to note that, as set forth in 12and12, most of the Traditions developed as the result of "cross-talk", whether it was taking a job at Towns Hospital or considering a position as an "AA" spokesman for the liquor industry. Cross- talk has a rich history in the Fellowship. It's been given an undeserved bad name by therapy-based practicioners in the treatment industry. john lee where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio johncseibert wrote: I was recently asked about the text of tradition two in the 12x12. Specifically I was asked if I knew who it was Bill was referring to when he wrote: "Almost timidly, one of my friends began to speak." pg 137 Also they were curious as to why Bill mentions this story about being offered a position at Townes Hospital in the text of tradition 2 instead of either tradition 6 (Never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise etc.) or tradition 8 (Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional etc.) unless it's to emphasize the point of a "Loving God as he may express himself through our group conscience" being the guiding forcxe of A.A. Can any of you learned folks answer these two questions? Service is Love John S. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3614. . . . . . . . . . . . How do we meditate according to the 11th Step? From: jsmaranatha . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/20/2006 8:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everyone, Is there anybody who could tell me what's the B.B. say about meditation? And I don't talk about thinking or the prayer of St. Francis which, incidentally is not really from St. Francis. At the beginning of this marvelous fellowship: have our founders known anything about meditation? Not prayer or thinking but real meditation. I asked this question many many times, here in Montreal and all around Canada and nobody could answer with real conviction about that. What's up? Not the "think think think" stuff but real, profound and deepful meditation? I will really appreciate your help. Regards, And excuse my written English, sorry - in advance thank you for your understanding. John S. Montreal, Quebec, Canada jeanst_onge@cgocable.ca ________________________________ A NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR People sometimes tend to forget, and start assuming that there has only been one early AA author. There were four great AA authors from the early AA period: Bill W., Richmond Walker, Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe), and Ed Webster. ________________________________ ENTERING THE DIVINE SILENCE Richmond Walker, a New Englander who got sober in Boston in 1942 (see http://hindsfoot.org/RWchrn.html ), later moved to Daytona Beach, Florida, and wrote some meditations for himself on little cards which he carried around in this pocket. The Florida AA people persuaded him to publish these in 1948 in a little black book, called "Twenty Four Hours a Day." It was sponsored by the Daytona Beach AA group, printed at the county courthouse, and distributed from Rich's basement. Its use quickly spread over the U.S. and Canada, and there were periods when there were more AA members who owned a copy of this book than owned a copy of the Big Book. Rich is still the second most published AA author (only Bill W. has beat him in total sales). The eleventh step says "Sought through prayer and meditation [a] to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for [b] knowledge of His will for us and [c] the power to carry that out. The majority of early AA members during the 1950's and 60's found that Rich's little book told them exactly how to do all three of those things. The fine print section at the bottom of each page is based on one of the old Oxford Group books, "God Calling by Two Listeners," which is still the sixth most popular book sold at Christian book stores. As we all know, AA spirituality was based heavily on Oxford Group spirituality. Rich refers to the kind of meditation that you are talking about as "entering into the Divine Silence." In addition to the influence of the Oxford Group, he seems to have been influenced by Hindu meditational techniques, perhaps as mediated through the New England Transcendentalists (notice the quote from a Hindu author at the beginning of his book) and by nineteenth century German idealism (notice all the references to the philosopher Kant's concept of our normal consciousness being boxed up in the box of space and time). His concept of the divine spark within the soul, with which we need to get into contact when we are meditating, may indicate some knowledge of the medieval Catholic concept of the scintilla or divine spark within the soul, although some of the spiritual writers whom the Oxford Group read and were influenced by, also spoke that way on certain occasions. ________________________________ THE GOLDEN BOOKS Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) was a Roman Catholic priest, and of course talks about meditation in his Golden Books and in his tape recordings, all of which are still available. One of his definitions is that "meditation is thinking about something that is true." And that is one of the standard things that the word meditation meant in traditional Catholic spirituality. So reading a short section from one of his Golden Books every morning, and then thinking quietly about one of the profound spiritual truths which it talks about, would be a form of meditation. I know that you are rejecting this idea, but if you are asking what most people in the U.S. and Canada meant by the word "meditation" in 1938 and 1939, when the Big Book was being written, it did in fact mean "thinking about some spiritual statement that is true." Look for example at how the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church explains the traditional meanings of the words "meditation" and "contemplation." CONTEMPLATION The kind of practices that you seem to be interested in were referred to as "contemplation" (not meditation) in traditional Catholic spirituality. If you are not thinking about words and ideas and thoughts, but merely contemplating something wordlessly (and trying to still all of your thoughts) then this was usually referred to as "contemplation." HINDU MEDITATION (AND THE BEATLES) The word meditation did not start to be used in the way that you are using it until a popular music group called the Beatles (during the 1960's) started telling everyone about a guru in India whom they had met who had a system which the Beatles called "Transcendental Meditation," which they believed was a safer way of getting into some of the altered states which they had been attempting to get into by taking drugs (and writing songs about it like "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds," "We All Live in a Yellow Submarine," and "I Get High with a Little Help from My Friends"). But none of the AA people who helped write the Big Book back in 1938 and 1939 knew anything about the Beatles and Transcendental Meditation. In my own observation, I have known a lot of AA people who played around with Transcendental Meditation or something like that when they first came in, but I do not know any good old timers who continued to practice that kind of meditation on a daily basis after they had been in for a while. They all told me that they eventually discovered better ways of carrying out the eleventh step. But it never did anybody any harm, so if you would like to try it, there is a bunch of stuff on that kind of meditation (or contemplation) on the internet, from all sorts of religious traditions: Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, the methods of the Jewish Kabbalah, and so on, and they all use pretty much the same techniques. In the Roman Catholic tradition, some of the people and works to look at would be St. Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle, St. John of the Cross, St. Bonaventure's The Mind's Path to God, Meister Eckhart, The Cloud of Unknowing, and Julian of Norwich. However, Father Ralph Pfau thinks that most AA people would be a whole lot better off turning to St. Therese of Lisieux (the Little Flower) and learning about the Little Way, the path to simple sancitity where we learn how to actually practice love in little ways in our relationships with all the people around us in our everyday lives. You don't need elaborate meditative techniques to learn the Little Way. What you do need to learn is a simple and unquestioning trust in God, and a willingness to call on God for help in all the little details of our everyday lives. And then just go around being GOOD to the other people around you. ________________________________ THE LITTLE RED BOOK Ed Webster talks briefly about meditation in the chapter of The Little Red Book which deals with the eleventh step. Since Dr. Bob was actively involved in helping Ed write and revise that book, and pushed its use strongly until Dr. Bob's death in November 1950 (sending copies all over the U.S. and Canada, and insisting that the New York GSO make the book available for sale), I think we can say that The Little Red book gets us as close as we can to understanding how Dr. Bob thought the AA program ought to be taught to newcomers. ________________________________ QUIET TIME And Ed's treatment of the issue reminds us that what the earliest AA people certainly primarily understood by the term "meditation" was what the Oxford Group called taking a morning "Quiet Time." So if you want to know more about the AA understanding, it would be very useful to read some of the Oxford Group literature. The Oxford Group author A. J. Russell talks about this Quiet Time in "For Sinners Only" and the Oxford Group author V. C. Kitchen talks about it in "I Was a Pagan." So to understand what most of the earliest AA people meant by meditation, read up on the Oxford Group and see what they meant by having a morning Quiet Time, and then read the fine print sections at the bottom of each page in Twenty Four Hours a Day and see what Richmond Walker calls entering the Divine Silence, which was his term for the same thing. (Rich had been a member of the Oxford Group before he joined AA.) ________________________________ VARIETIES OF A.A. SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE But also remember that William James, in his book "The Varieties of Religious Experience," stated that different people needed different spiritual approaches, because different people had different personalities. That is why the Big Book states "God as we understood Him," trying to make it clear that we have to work out of own concept of God. So the Big Book does not lay out a detailed theological system defining "what God is." For the same reason, the Big Book deliberately does not lay out a detailed system for meditating. Different AA members will have to use different ways. The majority of early AA people found that Richmond Walker's Twenty Four Hours a Day did a far better job of helping them learn to meditate successfully than any other book they had ever read, but that did not mean ALL the early AA people, and it is possible that you too might find some other book more useful. But just for myself, I would put the 24 hour book on my short list of the ten greatest books on spirituality and meditation ever written (including Asia as well as the western world). I see more people making more spiritual progress more quickly, when they start reading that book every day, than any other spiritual book I have ever seen. But again, that still doesn't mean that it would be the right approach for you. ________________________________ EMMET FOX and JAMES ALLEN One of the principal goals of meditation is to bring our minds and feelings and attitudes back into peace and harmony with God. So to help you better understand what this goal is, and to better understand what it is that we are trying to do when we are meditating, it might also be useful to read Emmet Fox's "Sermon on the Mount" and James Allen's "As a Man Thinketh" ( http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html ). Both of those books were on the list of ten books which early Akron AA advised every new AA member to read. And Emmet Fox's "Golden Key" explains how to recite mantras to bring our souls back into harmony with God. They aren't quite the same as the kind of mantras which are used in Transcendental Meditation, but in my own experience they actually work better. (I wrote about Richmond Walker's system of meditation in The Higher Power of the Twelve Step Program, in Chapter 5, "Two Classical Authors of A.A. Spirituality," see http://hindsfoot.org/kHP1.html , and about Emmet Fox's Golden Key at the end of Chapter 3 in that book.) ________________________________ OTHER KINDS OF MEDITATION And it is also useful to remember that meditation is a pretty broad concept. We are not necessarily trying to "meditate till you levitate" and get into the vision of the Divine Abyss and the Uncreated Light, and all that kind of thing, although that is certainly all right. We have people in the AA program whom I would describe as spiritual adepts, who have experienced all of the extraordinary things that we find talked about in ancient and medieval spiritual literature. I know a woman in the program, for example, who actually experienced the vision of the Holy Grail. But don't fall into the trap of thinking that meditation HAS to be spooky stuff and "altered states of consciousness" in order for it to qualify as real meditation. Making a gratitude list, and reading through it every morning, and putting our minds into an attitude of gratitude, is also a form of meditation. In fact, it is a VERY important form of meditation. Asking God for guidance in morning, and then LISTENING to hear what God wants us to do, is also a form of meditation. And likewise, this is a VERY important form of meditation. It was a vital part of what the Oxford Group called having a morning Quiet Time. Looking out at the trees and flowers, and becoming aware of the enormous beauty of the world (and simultaneously aware of the divine power which lies behind it) is certainly a form of meditation. Remember the Song of the Seraphim in Isaiah 6, which is repeated in so many Christian and Jewish liturgies: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord of hosts, all the world is filled with your glory." If all the world is filled with God's glory and holiness, then start becoming aware of it, and appreciating it, and developing an attitude of gratitude towards it, and you are "meditating." Enjoy the flowers and then say "thank you." Marvel at the sunset and then say "thank you." In the Navajo language, there is a word yo'zho' which means beauty, peace, harmony, and serenity. There is an oft repeated phrase in Navajo chants which speaks of "beauty (etc.) in front of me, beauty behind me, beauty beside me." If I can FEEL the sacred beauty, peace, harmony, and serenity all around me, that is meditation. GOD CONSCIOUSNESS and PRACTICING THE PRESENCE OF GOD In one sense, you see, meditation simply means working out some way that I can become AWARE of God's presence at the feeling level. That is what the early AA people called developing "God consciousness," or "practicing the presence of God," terms which they borrowed from the early twentieth century Protestant liberals (like the ones who published The Upper Room). From 1935 down to 1948, The Upper Room (which is still published today) was the standard AA meditational book. It has Bible verses on every page, and is heavily Christian (naturally), but it is still a very good meditational book for people from Christian backgrounds, both Protestants and Catholics alike. If you read that quietly and prayerfully every morning when you first get up, you are "meditating" in the sense in which Dr. Bob and Anne Smith started off their mornings in early Akron AA, because they used that book every morning (or simply read straight from the Bible). There would usually be a group of AA members present in their home, quietly drinking their morning coffee together, while they all meditated in this fashion on what Anne had read to them. ________________________________ But the most important thing to remember is that something that would work for me wouldn't necessarily work for you. Meditation means "meditation in some way that works for you," just like AA refers to "God as you understand Him," because nobody can lay out a concept of God or a method of meditation that will work for everybody. That's why the Big Book doesn't go into more detail on that subject. So I would suggest that you read some of the things I have mentioned, all of which come from good old time AA, and then start experimenting to see what works for you, and what doesn't work for you. ______________________________ THE BIG BOOK and THE ELEVENTH STEP And remember that the Big Book always gives us our basic framework for understanding what we are trying to do when we work the twelve step program, and our basic criteria for figuring out whether we are working the steps in the right kind of way. The eleventh step says "Sought through prayer and meditation [a] to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for [b] knowledge of His will for us and [c] the power to carry that out. That is very short, but it nevertheless says it all. [a] We are trying to increase our God consciousness and our sense of the presence of God all around us at all times, [b] we are trying to gain a better understanding of how God wants us to live our lives (including all the little decisions we make throughout the course of the day), and [c] we are turning to God in order to get the spiritual power to stay away from the first drink, and help in overcoming the power of our character defects so that they no longer dominate our lives. If the methods of prayer and meditation which we are using are effectively helping us in all three of those areas, then we are using the right methods for us. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator AAHistoryLovers IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3615. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Herbert Wallace From: Doug Hart . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2006 11:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The History Detectives episode described is on at 9 p.m. Monday night in Tampa also, repeating on Aug 1 and 3, so the 9 p.m. time on Monday may be fairly universal, at least for the Eastern time zone. Doug ----- Original Message ----- From: Mel Barger To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 5:19 AM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Wallace Hi Mitch, Herb Wallace was an export lawyer in New York. The letter in question was actually a letter of condolence to Herb's wife, as Herb had just passed on. He appears to have been an Oxford Grouper who remained on good terms with Bill and the other alcoholics who had left that fellowship. I believe Herb's grandson found the letter and must have submitted it to History Detectives. The show is scheduled to appear here in Toledo at 9 p.m. Monday, July 31st. It may be on different times in other places. I was interviewed for the program, though not as an AA member. (I checked with GSO prior to accepting the assignment.) The interviewer was Gwen Wright, who appears regularly on this show. Much of the interview is in front of Bill's former home at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn. It will probably be obvious to AA members that I'm in the fellowship, but I was told that this was okay if I wasn't identified as a member. I didn't know anything about History Detectives until this came up and I've seen only two programs. But it is an interesting show and brings in a lot of good history with it. They do three segments during the hour, and this one is titled "Alcoholics Anonymous Letter." I hope our History Lovers will watch it and send me their comments. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell K." To: Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 12:18 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Wallace >I recently heard that there was a PBS television show called History > Detectives airing a show about a letter from Bill Wilson to a Herbert > Wallace of Maryland thanking him for his staunch support of AA. It was > written in 1942 and is on Alcoholic Foundation letterhead. I haven't > seen the show but they are repeated now and again. > > Anyone have any information on Mr Wallace? > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com > 12:09:27 AM ET - 7/27/2006 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3616. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How do we meditate according to the 11th Step? From: Tom White . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2006 8:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII John: A sort of mystery hangs over the word meditation and there must be 10,000 definitions floating around. About all I have learned in my 40- odd years in the program is "to turn my thoughts to God, as I understand him" and not to worry. There is a vast literature on this in old Roman Catholicism and even some modern writings. A tremendous amount in Eastern Orthodox writings (The Philokalia -- sp?). I guess not so much on the Prot. side of the ledger. The Hindus "wrote the book" on it, and modern Hindus (Ramana Maharshi, Ramakrishna, etc., are often very helpful to a Westerner. Something I'd like to recommend to anyone is Brother Lawrence's Practice of the Presence of God. But the early AAs, under O.G. influence, did (usually) a brief Bible reading and then went into "Quiet Time," time variable, but 10 or 20 minutes is what seems to have been common, and had notebook and pen or pencil in hand to write down thoughts or "guidance." Over time a sort of learning occurs on the very question you ask, how to do meditation. To each his own. Just do it. Don't worry. If you are attempting it at any level you are blocks ahead of not doing it at all. Very best, Tom W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3617. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Traditions/cross talk From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2006 12:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John and John - this is a very long reply to both your messages To John L My personal indoctrination and introduction to the term "cross-talk" (in both California and Texas) had to do with the rude and inconsiderate practice of members at a meeting either talking in the background at the same time another member was called on to speak, or members getting into a debate back and forth at a meeting and not letting other members participate in the discussions. How "most of the Traditions developed as the result of cross-talk" and how "cross-talk has a rich history in the Fellowship" and how "therapy based practitioners" enter the picture to have any relevance at all with the Traditions escapes me. I don't know where you are finding information or mention, or even implication, of the notion of something called "cross-talk" in the 12and12 or any other AA (or non-AA) publication on having any linkage at all with the Traditions. If I'm mistaken in my assessment of this, I'd very much appreciate your citing some written source(s) so that I can better educate myself as to where this rich history is documented. Otherwise, I would appeal for restraint in presenting something as historical fact when it is premised on editorial imagination and lacks substantiation. To John S How the story of Bill's job offer to join Towns Hospital wound up in the 12and12 Tradition 2 essay (pages 136-138)is explained in a fuller context in "AA Comes of Age" (pages 100-102). Bill sums up his obeying the group conscience to not take the job Charles Towns offered him as "Three blows, well and truly struck, had fallen on the anvil of group experience. They rang in my consciousness. The Common welfare must come first. AA cannot have a class of professional therapists and God, speaking in the group conscience, is to be our final authority. Clearly implied in these three embryo principles of tradition was a fourth: Our leaders are but trusted servants they do not govern." Bill W declining that lucrative job offer, based on group conscience, was no trivial matter - it was during the worst of the great economic depression and jobs of any sort were hard to come by and both Bill W and Dr Bob were hard pressed financially. After having lived a hand-to-mouth existence for many years, Bill wanted the job very much. I don't believe it could be factually determined as to who the member was who "timidly" spoke to Bill. The impetus for Traditions 8 and 9 came from other experiences. The Traditions have a very rich history and required a great deal of preparation, explanation and conditioning of the membership from 1946-1950. The AA Grapevine was the primary vehicle for accomplishing those ends. The information that follows is a (rather long) timeline of events, experiences and actions that influenced the evolution of the Traditions to become AA's Legacy of Unity. There have been a number of posting on the Traditions in AAHistoryLovers in the past. Much of what follows can be found by doing a search on the AAHL web site. I'd also encourage reading the books referenced, they are a gold mine of AA history. A History of the Traditions Each of AA's three Legacies of Recovery, Unity and Service are grounded upon a foundation of spiritual principles. Each Step, Tradition and Concept is, of itself, a "principle" (i.e. a rule of personal conduct). Bill W published essays (in the Grapevine, 12and12, "AA Comes of Age" and "Twelve Concepts for World Service") defining the context, origin and basis of each of the 36 principles. Bill's original Grapevine essays on the Traditions can be found in the book "The Language of the Heart." These Grapevine Essays later became the basis for publication of the traditions portion of the 12and12 and the "Unity" portion of the book "AA Comes of Age." This history below provides a timeline of the origin and development of the Twelve Traditions. Source References: 12and12 - Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions AACOA - AA Comes of Age BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers EBBY - EBBY the Man Who Sponsored Bill W GSO - GSO Archives documents LOH - The Language of the Heart LR - Lois Remembers MMM - Mrs Marty Mann NG - Not God NW - New Wine PIO - Pass It On SD - Slaying the Dragon SM - AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service Notations show source references and page numbers of interest. In "AA Comes of Age" the earliest personal experience that involved Bill W, and influenced the Traditions, occurred when Bill was 2 years sober. 1936 In December 1936, Charles B Towns offered Bill W a lucrative job at his hospital as a lay alcoholism therapist. After years of a hand to mouth existence Bill wanted the job very much. The question was presented to the NY group meeting in Bill's home. They rejected it and Bill complied with their decision. This was the emergence of the Tradition 2 spiritual principle of "God speaking in the group conscience is to be our final authority." (AACOA 100-102, LR 197, BW-RT 232-234, NG 63-64, PIO 175-177) 1937 The next early experience that influenced the Traditions is recorded in the 12and12 essay on Tradition 3. It also is the source of one of the most enduring myths in AA. I don't know what else to call the myths other than the Akron drug addict who didn't exist and the NY drug addict who disappeared In the "12and12" Tradition 3 essay (pgs 141-142) it states that on the AA calendar it was "year two" of the Fellowship - that would be 1937. A prospective member asked to be admitted who frankly described himself to the "oldest" member as "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism." In an April 1968 open meeting at the General Service Conference, Bill W revealed that the prospective member's so-called "addiction" was "sex deviate" and that guidance came from Dr Bob (the oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would the Master do?" Many people think Bill W said that but he didn't. The member with the so-called "addiction" (which had absolutely nothing to do with drugs) was admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. This incident is also discussed in "Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers" (pgs 240-241) and the pamphlet "The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous" (pg 30). Parts of the story (particularly the part about the "addiction" and plunging into "12th Step work") are often erroneously intermingled with another incident that occurred 8 years later in 1945 at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC. This incident is described in the book "Pass It On" (pgs 317-318). Bill W was called from the clubhouse in NYC by Barry L (he was the member who later wrote the book "Living Sober"). Bill persuaded the group to take in a black man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women's clothing and makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." When asked what to do about it, Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered "yes" Bill replied "well I think that's all we can ask." Anecdotal accounts often erroneously, and sometimes very, very solemnly, say that this individual went on to "become one of the best 12th Steppers in NY." The problem is that it's just not true - it's a myth. In actual fact, the book Pass It On (pg 318) states that "although he soon disappeared" (repeat "soon disappeared") "his presence created a precedent for the 3rd Tradition." 1937 Late spring, leaders of the Oxford Group at the Calvary Mission ordered alcoholics staying there not to attend meetings at Clinton St. Bill W and Lois were criticized by OG members for having "drunks only" meetings at their home. The Wilson's were described as "not maximum" (an OG term for those believed to be lagging in their devotion to OG principles). (EBBY 75, LR 103, BW-RT 231, NG 45, NW 89-91) This was the beginning of AA separating itself from outside affiliation and set the groundwork for Tradition 6. The Akron group would remain affiliated with the OG for 2 more years. In October, Bill W and Dr Bob met in Akron and compared notes. 40 cases were sober (more than 20 for over a year). All once diagnosed as hopeless. In a meeting at T Henry Williams' home, Bill's ideas, for a book, hospitals and how to expand the movement with paid missionaries, narrowly passed by 2 votes among 18 members. The NY group was more enthusiastic. (AACOA vii, 76-77, 144-146, BW-RT 239-243, DBGO 123-124, NG 56-57, PIO 180, LOH 142) The ideas for a chain of hospitals and paid missionaries would later fade away as the experiences that influenced the Traditions emerged. During the rest of November, Bill W and Hank P tried to raise money for the book without success. (LR 197, PIO 181) 1938 In February, Willard Richardson asked Frank Amos to visit Akron, OH and make a report on the fledgling Fellowship. Amos made a very favorable report to Richardson who presented it to John D Rockefeller Jr. urging a donation of $5,000 ($65,000 today) for two years. (GSO, BW-FH 105-106 says $10,000, $5,000 a year for 2 years, in LOH 61 Bill W says $30,000). (SM S3, BW-RT 246, LR 197, DBGO 128-135, BW-FH 105-106, PIO 185-187, LOH 143, AGAA 217, 258) Rockefeller refused to make the donation but provided $5,000 ($65,000 today) to be held in a fund in the Riverside Church treasury. Much of the fund was used to pay off Dr Bob's mortgage and provide Bill and Bob with $30 a week ($390 today) as long as the fund lasted. (BW-RT 247, AACOA 149-151, DBGO 135, PIO 187-188) On August 5, the Alcoholic Foundation was established as a charitable trust with a board of 5 Trustees (in LOH 61 Bill W said it started with 7 Trustees). Its first meeting took place on August 11 (GSO). Non-alcoholic board members were Willard (Dick) Richardson (who proposed the Foundation) Frank Amos and John E F Wood. (LOH 61) Alcoholic board members were Dr Bob and NY member William (Bill) R (whose Big Book Story is A Business Man's Recovery). Bill R was the first Board Chairman but returned to drinking and resigned in February 1939. The board composition began a long (and later troublesome) tradition of making non-alcoholics a majority. An advisory committee to the board was also established. It consisted of A LeRoy Chipman, Bill W, Albert L Scott and Hank P. (GSO, BW-RT 248, AACOA 151-152, LR 197, NG 66, 307, 330, PIO 188) 1939 April, principles defined in the Foreword to the First Edition Big Book provided the seeds for many of the Traditions that Bill W later published in the April 1946 Grapevine. These same principles were also incorporated into the "AA Preamble" which was first published in the June 1947 Grapevine. Relevant (truncated) extracts from the Foreword to the First Edition that relate to the Traditions are: "It is important that we remain anonymous because we are too few, at present to handle the overwhelming number of personal appeals which may result from this publication. Being mostly business or professional folk, we could not well carry on our occupations in such an event. We would like it understood that our alcoholic work is an avocation." "When writing or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our Fellowship to omit his personal name, designating himself instead as "a member of Alcoholics Anonymous." "Very earnestly we ask the press also, to observe this request, for otherwise we shall be greatly handicapped." "We are not an organization in the conventional sense of the word. There are no fees or dues whatsoever. The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. We are not allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted. We shall be interested to hear from those who are getting results from this book, particularly from those who have commenced work with other alcoholics. We should like to be helpful to such cases. Inquiry by scientific, medical, and religious societies will be welcomed." 1940 Early, the "Rule #62" story was sent to Bill W in a letter from a chastened and humbled "promoter member." (AACOA 103-104, 12and12 147-149, NG 107) The story is a key part of 12and12 essay for Tradition 4. February 8, John D Rockefeller Jr. held a dinner for AA at the Union League Club. 75 out of 400 invited guests attended. Nelson Rockefeller hosted the dinner in the absence of his ill father. The dinner produced much favorable publicity for AA. It also raised $2,200 ($29,000 today) from the attendees ($1,000 from Rockefeller). Rockefeller and the dinner guests continued to provide about $3,000 a year ($34,000 today) up to 1945 when they were asked to stop contributing. The Alcoholic Foundation received the donations and income from sales of the Big Book. (LR 197, BW-RT 264-267, AACOA viii, 182-187, NG 92-94, BW-FH 109-112, PIO 232-235). For its first 10 years outside contributions were essential to AA. April 16, Cleveland Indians baseball star "Rollicking" Rollie H had his anonymity broken in the Cleveland Plains Dealer and nationally. Bill W did likewise in later personal appearances in 1942 and 1943. (AACOA 135, BW-RT 268-270, DBGO 249-253, NG 85-87, 96-96, AACOA 24-25, BW-FH 134-135, PIO 236-238, GTBT 156) May 22, Works Publishing Co. was incorporated. Bill W and Hank P gave up their stock with the stipulation that Dr Bob and Anne would receive 10% royalties on the Big Book for life. Hank was persuaded to relinquish his shares in exchange for a $200 payment ($2,600 today) for office furniture he claimed belonged to him. (AACOA 189-190, LR 199, BW-FH 119, SM 11, PIO 235-236, GTBT 92) 1941 March 1, Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article was published. The publicity caused 1941 membership to jump from around 2,000 to 8,000. Bill and two other members' pictures appeared full-face in the article. (AACOA viii, 35-36, 190-191, BW-RT 281, LOH 149-150, BW-FH 146, PIO 245-247) The article, led to over 6,000 appeals for help to be mailed to Box 658 for the NY Office to handle. (SM S7, PIO 249) The NY office asked groups to donate $1 ($12 today) per member, per year, for support of the office. This began the practice of financing the NY office operations from group donations. (AACOA 112, 192, LOH 149, SM S7) Fitz M's sister, Agnes (administrator of the Corcoran Art School, Washington DC) loaned Works Publishing Inc. $1,000 ($12,500 today) to pay Cornwall Press to release Big Books being held for payment. (BW-FH 92, AACOA 18) 1942 (and earlier) Correspondence from groups gave early signals of a need to develop guidelines to help with group problems that occurred over and over. Basic ideas for the formulation of the Twelve Traditions emerged from this correspondence and the principles defined in the Foreword to the first Edition of the Big Book. (AACOA 187, 192-193, 198, 204, PIO 305-306, LOH 154). Board Trustee A LeRoy Chipman asked John D Rockefeller Jr. and his 1940 dinner guests for $8,500 ($95,000 today) to buy back the remaining outstanding shares of Works Publishing Inc. stock. Rockefeller lent $4,000, his son Nelson $500 and the other dinner guests $4,000. Rockefeller's custom was to forgive $1 of debt for each $1 repaid. The Rockefeller and dinner guest loans were repaid by 1945 out of Big Book income. (AACOA 189, BW-FH 110-111, SM S7, LOH 148, AACOA says $8,000) October, Clarence S, founder of AA in Cleveland (whose Big Book story is "The Home Brewmeister") stirred up a controversy in Cleveland after discovering that Dr Bob and Bill W were receiving royalties from Big Book sales. (DBGO 267-269, AACOA 193-194) Bill and Dr Bob re-examined the problem of their financial status and concluded that royalties from the Big Book seemed to be the only answer to the problem. Bill sought counsel from Father Ed Dowling (Bill's spiritual sponsor) who suggested that Bill and Dr Bob could not accept money for 12th Step work, but should accept royalties as compensation for special services. (AACOA 194-195, PIO 322-324). This later formed the basis for Tradition 8. 1944 April 1, Marty Mann moved to New Haven, CT to found the National Committee for Education on Alcoholism (NCEA). Its office initially resided at Yale U. Marty stayed with E M Jellinek's family and attended the 1944 Yale Summer School. The office later moved to NYC in October. Information on the NCEA was later published in the Grapevine along with an explanation on why Marty was breaking her anonymity. (MMM 164-165). The NCEA later became known as the National Committee on Alcoholism (NCA) and then later renamed the National Committee on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence (NCADD). (SD 186) 1945 April, Earl T, founder of AA in Chicago (whose Big Book Story is "He Sold Himself Short") suggested to Bill W that he codify the Traditions and write essays on them in the Grapevine. (AACOA 22, 203, SM S8, PIO 306, LOH 20-24). Earl T played a prominent role in the development of both the long and short form of the Traditions. August, the Grapevine carried Bill W's first Traditions article (titled "Modesty One Plank for Good Public Relations") setting the groundwork for his 5-year campaign for the Traditions. The July Grapevine edition had an article by member CHK of Lansing, MI about the Washingtonians. Bill used this article to begin his essay commentaries. The Alcoholic Foundation wrote to John D Rockefeller, Jr and the 1940 dinner guests that AA no longer needed their financial help. Big Book royalties could look after Dr Bob and Bill W and Group contributions could pay the general office expenses. This ended all "outside contributions" to AA. (AACOA 203-204). It formed the basis of Tradition 7. All loans received from Rockefeller and the dinner guests from 1941 to 1945 were repaid in 1945 out of Big Book income. 1946 April, the Grapevine carried Bill W's article "Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition." They would later be called the long form of the Twelve Traditions. (AACOA viii, 96, 203, LOH 20, 154) A dispute rose over a funding solicitation letter from the National Council for Education on Alcoholism (NCEA) by Marty Mann. Dr Bob and Bill W's names appeared on the letterhead. An Alcoholic Foundation Board statement on fund raising was printed in the October Grapevine to disavow AA affiliation. (GTBT 29, NG 119, MMM 185) 1947 August, in a Grapevine Traditions essay titled "Last Seven Years Have Made AA Self-Supporting" Bill W wrote "Two years ago the trustees set aside, out of AA book funds, a sum which enabled my wife and me to pay off the mortgage on our home and make some needed improvements. The Foundation also granted Dr Bob and me each a royalty of 10% on the book Alcoholics Anonymous, our only income from AA sources. We are both very comfortable and deeply grateful." (LOH 62-66) December, the Grapevine carried a notice that an important new 48-page pamphlet titled "AA Traditions" was sent to each group and that enough copies were available for each member to have one free of charge. 1949 As plans for the first International Convention were under way, Earl T suggested to Bill W that the "Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition" would benefit from revision and shortening. (AACOA 213 says it occurred in 1947) Bill, with Earl's help, set out to develop the short form of the Twelve Traditions. (AACOA 213, PIO 334) November, the short form of the Twelve Traditions was first printed in the AA Grapevine. The entire issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for the forthcoming Cleveland Convention. Two wording changes were subsequently made to the initial version of the short form of the Traditions: "primary spiritual aim" was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6, and "principles above personalities" was changed to "principles before personalities" in Tradition 12. (LOH 96) The date that these changes were adopted is difficult to determine precisely and appears to have occurred with the publication of the book "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" in 1953. 1950 AA's 15th anniversary and 1st International Convention took place at Cleveland, OH from July 28-30, 1950 (AACOA 43, LOH 121, PIO 338). Bill W chronicled the proceedings in a September 1950 Grapevine article titled "We Came of Age" which is preserved in the book "The Language of the Heart." (LOH 117-124) The Traditions meeting of the Convention was held in the Cleveland Music Hall. Bill W was asked to sum up the 12 Traditions for the attendees. Bill did not recite either the short or long form of the Traditions as we know them today or as they were first published. Instead he paraphrased and summarized a variation of the Traditions that is preserved in the book "The Language of the Heart" (LOH 121). Following Bill's summation, he asked if anyone had any objections to the 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous. Hearing none he offered the Traditions for adoption. The attendees unanimously approved their adoption by standing vote. Bill later noted in "AA Comes of Age" (AACOA 213) "It was a fine hour in that month of July 1950. Alcoholics Anonymous had passed it fifteenth milestone; its Second Legacy of Tradition was secure." 1952 In September, Al-Anon Family Groups (AFG) adopted and adapted the Twelve Traditions of AA. The version of the Traditions they used was the original wording of the short form of the Traditions that appeared in the November 1949 Grapevine. AFG Traditions continue to use the term "primary spiritual aim" as opposed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6, and the term "principles above personalities" as opposed to "principles before personalities" in Tradition 12. 1953 June, the book "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" was published. Bill W described the work as "This small volume is strictly a textbook which explains AA's 24 basic principles and their application, in detail and with great care." Betty L and Tom P helped Bill in its writing. Jack Alexander also helped with editing. It was published in two editions: one for $2.25 ($15.50 today) for distribution through AA groups, and a $2.75 ($19 today) edition distributed through Harper and Brothers for sale in commercial bookstores. (AACOA ix, 219, PIO 354-356) 1955 July 1-3, AA's 20th anniversary and 2nd International Convention at St Louis, MO. Theme: Coming of Age. (AACOA viii, SM S2) Bill W claimed attendance of 5,000. It was actually closer to 3,000. On July 3, by resolution, Bill W and its old-timers turned over the stewardship of the AA society to the movement. The Conference became the Guardian of the Traditions and voice of the group conscience of the entire Fellowship. The resolution was unanimously adopted by the Convention by acclamation and was approved beforehand by the General Service Conference subject to approval by the International Convention. (AACOA ix, 47-48, 223-228) Note: this was one of two instances when the Conference did not convene in NYC. The Conference first convened in St Louis in late June and concluded on July 3. The 2nd edition Big Book was introduced at the international convention. 30 new personal stories were introduced. A new appendix was added to the Big Book containing the short and long form of the 12 Traditions. During the 1950's there was confusion in this appendix because it listed the short form of the Traditions that appeared in the November 1949 Grapevine and not the version that was contained in the 12and12 in 1953. Eventually, the wording of Tradition 6 was corrected in the 3rd printing of the 2nd edition Big Book and the wording of Tradition 12 was corrected in the 6th printing of the 2nd edition Big Book in 1963. 1957 Bill W, suggested, and the 1957 Conference approved, that the Conference Charter be amended to read: "But no change in article 12 of the Charter or in AA tradition or in the Twelve Steps of AA may be made with less than the written consent of three-quarters of the AA groups (SM S87). 1958 The 1958 General Service Conference approved removing the word "honest" from the term "honest desire to stop drinking" in the "AA Preamble." It also changed the term "AA has no dues or fees" to "There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions." The wording of the Conference advisory action can give the misleading impression that the Traditions were changed. The advisory action reads: "The General Service Conference recognize the original use of the word 'honest' before 'desire to stop drinking' and its deletion from the Traditions as part of the evolution of the AA movement. Any change to be left to the discretion of AA Publishing, Inc." The advisory action did not change the Traditions. AA legend will sometimes erroneously state that the word "honest" was removed from Tradition 3. Tradition 3, in either its long or short form, never contained the word "honest." The term "honest desire to stop drinking" comes from the Foreword to the 1st edition Big Book which still contains the term. 1976 Conference Advisory Action "It is resolved by the 1976 General Service Conference that those instruments requiring consent of three-quarters of the responding groups for change or amendment would include the Twelve Steps of AA should any such change or amendment ever be proposed." "In case a change is needed in the Twelve Traditions, the Twelve Steps, or the Six Warranties of Article 12, wherever the words "registered AA groups of the world", "registered groups" or "directory-listed groups" appear in the "AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service" a bracketed sentence be inserted to state, "This would include all AA groups known to the General Service Offices around the world." The 1976 Conference Advisory Actions (and their predecessors) effectively make any notion of a change to the Steps, Traditions and Warranties (i.e. Article 12 of the Conference Charter) a virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma). Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Lee Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 1:51 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] The Traditions/cross talk It's interesting to note that, as set forth in 12and12, most of the Traditions developed as the result of "cross-talk", whether it was taking a job at Towns Hospital or considering a position as an "AA" spokesman for the liquor industry. Cross- talk has a rich history in the Fellowship. It's been given an undeserved bad name by therapy-based practicioners in the treatment industry. john lee where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio johncseibert wrote: I was recently asked about the text of tradition two in the 12x12. Specifically I was asked if I knew who it was Bill was referring to when he wrote: "Almost timidly, one of my friends began to speak." pg 137 Also they were curious as to why Bill mentions this story about being offered a position at Townes Hospital in the text of tradition 2 instead of either tradition 6 (Never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise etc.) or tradition 8 (Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional etc.) unless it's to emphasize the point of a "Loving God as he may express himself through our group conscience" being the guiding forcxe of A.A. Can any of you learned folks answer these two questions? Service is Love John S. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3618. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Cross Talk From: Thomas . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/30/2006 3:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Perhaps our early timers did not think of "cross talk" as it is sometimes practiced these days. Here are three variations: 1) Angry (cross) talk. This is a joke based upon two meanings of cross - angry and exchanging. 2) Spontaneous ejaculation. Please don't be aroused. Ejaculation here means the explosive outpouring of a sound or speech. These folks choose to interrupt the meeting to demonstrate that they insist upon every speaker identifying themselves as alcoholic. So, when a newcomer or a really preoccupied member does not say, "My name is abc, and I am an alcoholic", these keepers of the faith (as they see it) shout forth with, "Who are you?" or "What's your name?". If the original contributor is not known in the meeting, it might be appropriate for the leader to make such an inquiry unobtrusively, or if they are known, they can be taken aside afterwards and enlightened. 3) Elaborating upon prior statements. It is very tempting to offer one's own experience pertaining to a question or an experience somebody else has just described in a meeting. If the meeting is smaller or most of the attendees know each other, I think such exchanges are both appropriate and productive. I temper my doing this, however, by avoiding public criticism or negativity - these I do in private, if ever. So, with our current chapter of AA history. Love, Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: John Lee To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] The Traditions/cross talk It's interesting to note that, as set forth in 12and12, most of the Traditions developed as the result of "cross-talk", whether it was taking a job at Towns Hospital or considering a position as an "AA" spokesman for the liquor industry. Cross- talk has a rich history in the Fellowship. It's been given an undeserved bad name by therapy-based practicioners in the treatment industry. john lee where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio johncseibert wrote: I was recently asked about the text of tradition two in the 12x12. Specifically I was asked if I knew who it was Bill was referring to when he wrote: "Almost timidly, one of my friends began to speak." pg 137 Also they were curious as to why Bill mentions this story about being offered a position at Townes Hospital in the text of tradition 2 instead of either tradition 6 (Never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise etc.) or tradition 8 (Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional etc.) unless it's to emphasize the point of a "Loving God as he may express himself through our group conscience" being the guiding forcxe of A.A. Can any of you learned folks answer these two questions? Service is Love John S. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3619. . . . . . . . . . . . Sally M., Fitz M., and Jimmy B. From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 7/29/2006 11:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn, Please post the following response and attachment (from WAIA Archives)to clear up an inaccuracy. t/y shakey mike _________________________ Sally M. is the daughter of Marjorie M. and Churchill M. Churchill was Fitz's best friend and Marjorie is Jimmy B's sister. See attached from Wash. Area Intergroup Association Yis, Shakey Mike Gwirtz ___________________ "Jimmy and Fitz Remembered notes from interview with Sally M. in Cumberstone, Md. Jimmy Burwell was Sally's Uncle. Fitz Mayo was her father's best friend." Above is cover from waia archives ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ IN RESPONSE TO A COMMENT FROM KILROY: Good looking out. But speaking of inaccuracies, if I'm not mistaken and I don't think I am, Sally M. is the sister of Fitz M. not Jimmy B. I went to that workshop at the church about 6 or 7 years ago and she told the story. Kilroy W. 4021 Club Philadelphia PA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3620. . . . . . . . . . . . Passing of Jim Houck From: Cindy Miller . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2006 9:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII James Houck got sober the day after Bill W. on 12/11/34 - so that makes 71.5 years. He was NOT an AA member tho. > > > > > HOUCK, SR., James W. On July 30, 2006, JAMES W. HOUCK, > SR.; beloved husband of the late Mary E. "Betty" Houck > (nee Brinley); loving father of James W. Houck, Jr. > and his wife Barbara, Frank W. Houck and his wife > Wendy and Bet-C Sammis and her husband Bud; cherished > grandfather of Janet Kines, James W. Houck, III, Beth > Svoboda, Patty Dawson, Heather and Mary Houck, Sharon > Hyde, Tonya Houck, Skip, Frank and Michael Sammis. > Also survived by 17 great-grandchildren. The family > will receive friends in the LEMMON FUNERAL HOME OF > DULANEY VALLEY, INC, 10 W. Padonia Road, Timonium, > 21093 on Thursday, 7-9 P.M. and Friday, 2-4 and 7-9 > P.M. Funeral services will be celebrated in the > funeral home on Saturday August 5 at 11 A.M. Interment > Dulaney Valley Memorial Gardens. A memorial service > will be celebrated in the Towson United Methodist > Church, 501 Hampton Lane on Saturday August 19 at 11 > A.M. Expressions of sympathy may be directed in Jim's > memory to the Rotary Club of Hunt Valley, James W. > Houck Foundation, Inc., C/O Rotary Club of Hunt > Valley, PO Box 94 Hunt Valley, MD 21030. > Published in the Baltimore Sun on 8/1/2006. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3621. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How do we meditate according to the 11th Step? From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2006 1:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Google comes up with 69 million plus references to meditation. But why look in the crystal ball when you can read the book? Bill W. elaborates on Step Eleven meditation in his essay on Step Eleven in the 12 and 12. ___________________________ Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (bottom of page 98 to the top of page 102). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3622. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Passing of Jim Houck From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2006 2:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Cindy, don't believe everything you read...Jim said that he was sober and leading the meeting at Calvary mission the day Bill walked in to his first mgt. _________________________ From: Cindy Miller To: aaHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Passing of Jim Houck Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:28:53 -0400 James Houck got sober the day after Bill W. on 12/11/34 - so that makes 71.5 years. He was NOT an AA member thoough. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3623. . . . . . . . . . . . Fwd: BB Authors, 3rd edition -- Sackville, Dublin, IR. "The Career Officer." From: funen99 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/6/2006 6:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, NMOlson@... wrote: From: They Lost Nearly All The Career Officer -- Sackville, Dublin, Ireland. (p. 523 in 2nd, p. 517 in 3rd editions.) Heading: "A British officer, this Irishman -- that is, until brandy 'retired' him. But this proved only a temporary setback. He survived to become a mainstay of mainstay of A.A. in Eire." Sackville attended his first A.A. meeting on April 28, 1947, and never took another drink. He was a "retired" major from the British Army, in which he served for twenty-six years. He had been discharged on medical grounds. This meant, of course, alcoholism. In a talk he gave in Bristol, England, in 1971, he said he received a letter from the Army saying they had accepted his resignation. But he didn't remember having sent it in. He was living with his parents in Dublin, existing on his retirement pay. His long-suffering mother finally ordered him to pack his bags. He then remembered seeing something about A.A. in the Evening Mail, and told her he would try A.A. His parents agreed that if A.A. could help him he could live at home. But he would be on probation. He arrived at his first meeting that night, drunk on gin and doped up on Benzedrine and paraldehyde. His first meeting was at the Dublin group. It was the first A.A. group in Europe, founded by Conor Flynn in November of 1946. Conor had got sober in Philadelphia three years earlier, and was on vacation in Ireland. It was known as the First Dublin Group or The Country Shop Group, the name of the restaurant where they met. Sackville found what looked like a large group when he went to his first meeting. But it was the big Monday night open meeting, to explain A.A. to newcomers and their families as well as doctors and social workers. Getting off to a shaky start, the secretary and a dozen others got drunk in the summer of 1947. Three remained sober, among them Sackville, who had joined in April. They re-formed the group in August with Sackville as secretary. Sackville was a good organizer who had clear and definite ideas of what they should do. He suggest they switch the open public information meeting from Friday to Monday, the better to catch men coming off a weekend drunk. He also worked hard to get information about A.A. to the newspapers. Since the vast majority of the Irish population was Roman Catholic, Sackville knew it was important to win the goodwill of the Catholic clergy. He convinced a professor of theology at St. Patrick's College, Mayhooth, to publish an article favorable to A.A. in the college paper The Furrow. Bill Wilson later referred to the publication of this article as an impressive step forward in A.A.'s relations with the churches. Bill Wilson visited them in 1950, and held a press conference in the Mansion House (Lord Mayor's house). Many years later Jimmy R. took great pride in showing the kitchen sink in his basement apartment into which Bill had knocked his cigarette ash as they sat around and talked for hours following the press conference. Sackville, in his 1971 talk, spoke of what a great man Bill Wilson was. In 1948 Sackville began a small paper, The Road Back, which did much to give the group a sense of identity. A bimonthly group newsletter celebrating birthdays and group news, it also carried recovery sharing in a simple unpretentious five-page format. He edited it for more than twenty- eight years. Sackville updated his story for the March 1968 Grapevine. It was titled: "Living the Program In All Our Affairs." He hoped that what he wrote would not be taken as the view of an Angry Old Man. But he complained of those who give only lip service to the slogans and the steps. He urged realism, with its frequent reminders of humility; faith, anchored to some unchanging norm of goodness (God, as I understand him); atonement; patience; and thinking with spiritual discipline. He complained of those who tell a newcomer that he only has to stay dry for today and to come to meetings. He said the meetings were necessary, but would not practice the Steps for anyone. Even the most meeting-minded member has to pass many hours of the day when he is alone and must depend on his own inner strength. These are the hours when practice of these principles in all his affairs must cease to be a conventional, superficial acceptance of them and become a master of the heart and the will. Sackville also wasn't fond of celebrity speakers. He urged that we take every speaker, silver-tongued or tongue-tied, at his real value of being another alcoholic who is doing his best to stay recovered himself and trying to help us to do the same. And he thought that the increasing numbers of conventions and the like were diverting time and effort from our primary purpose. He added, however, that these dislikes of his were "very slight ripples in a sea of contentment." Sackville died in 1979. ________ Special thanks to Louise H. of Belfast, and Ann P. of Spokane, Washington, for information on Sackville and A.A. in Ireland. --- End forwarded message --- IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3624. . . . . . . . . . . . Rockefeller Dinner Transcript (2/8/40) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2006 11:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII DIGEST OF PROCEEDINGS AT DINNER GIVEN BY MR. JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER JR., IN THE INTEREST OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, AT UNION CLUB, NEW YORK CITY, FEBRUARY 8, 1940. Mr. Nelson Rockefeller, after the dinner, called the meeting to order and expressed regret that his father would be unable to be present, but that Mr. Scott, president of Lockwood Greene Engineers, Inc., would take over the meeting at this point, Mr. SCOTT: "It is a very difficult situation to pinch hit for Mr. Rockefeller, but Nelson and I have agreed between us that we are going to do the best we can. Mr. Rockefeller asked me particularly to say how much interested he was in the work that is being done and how very sorry he is that he cannot be here, and how much he appreciates the fact that you gentlemen have come out to hear what is to be said. My own experience with this group dates back to December 1937. I was asked to attend a meeting in Rockefeller Center and I met some fifteen or eighteen men there and I heard a story that thrilled me from the start. Mr. Wilson, Dr. Smith, Mr. Mayo and some of the others who are here tonight told of their experience in getting control over alcoholism. The thing that particularly impressed me as a businessman was that this was done without any theatrics, without any strong appeal to the emotions, without any effects or any activities, which perhaps a conservative person might criticize. What they had done, it seemed to me, had gone back to the techniques of primitive Christianity, where one person told the good news to another. And it did not seem to make much difference whether the person they told it to was a Jew, a Protestant, a Catholic or nothing at all. If he observed the techniques which had been developed and reached out into the unknown and asked for help, the help came. I am not here to make a speech but to introduce the other speakers. I first want to introduce my friend Bill Wilson, who is at my right. Of this group Bill Wilson here has been the leader. He is almost, if not entirely, the originator of the undertaking. I know you will all want to hear from Mr. Wilson, and now I present him to you--Bill Wilson." Mr. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Rockefeller, friends and guests: If there is one thing that most people would like, it is to recover the good things they have lost. With us who have been alcoholics one of those good things is the regard of our fellow men. Therefore we are especially grateful to you gentlemen because your coming here is a mark of renewed confidence, and we want to thank you for the opportunity of presenting the little story of what has happened. I might start off by giving an account of a man whom I have not seen for two or three years. His experience so well illustrates the nature of the problem with which we have been dealing. This man was a rich man's son, and I can pay him no greater tribute than to say that he was very successful in business; I think that is a real tribute. He was a person of dignity, good taste, education. He had a great many friends. Well, he did a conventional amount of drinking, and that went along nicely a number of years, and then he found that he began to get drunk, very much to his own consternation, for he had looked down upon people of that type before. I have indicated, I think, that he was a person of character, and great force of character. Therefore the question immediately arises in everyone's mind: "Why didn't he stop?" But he did not. Little by little matters got worse and he began to go from one hospital or cure to another. He consulted psychiatrists. He began to make a study of himself, and of this thing, which is called alcoholism. Little by little the realization dawned on him that although he might have been foolish in drinking too much, now he had become sick. In desperation he went to Dr. Jung in Zurich, who is considered by many physicians the world's leading authority on the alcoholic mind. There he was under treatment, I believe, for a long time. In the course of that treatment he said to Dr. Jung: "Doctor, you are for me the court of last resort. Will you please tell me how serious this is and where I get off?" And the doctor said: "It is this serious. I have never seen one single case where the alcoholic's mind was in the state that yours is that ever recovered." And our friend said: "Ever recovered? Are there no exceptions?" And the doctor said: "Yes, there are some exceptions - those cases where men have had so-called vital spiritual experiences." An expression of relief went over our friend's face as he said: "Well, Doctor, I am a good Episcopalian. I used to be a vestryman before I got so bad." The Doctor shook his head. "That is not enough to expel this obsession which you have, this so-called compulsion neurosis." So our friend said, "What next, how do I get one of those things?" "Well," the Doctor said, "I don't know. Certain orders in the Catholic Church have had success with alcoholics. The Salvation Army...priests and ministers partially...Christian Science.... But these successes have been only occasional, sporadic." And he added, "I don't know whether the lightning will hit you or not. You might try. Otherwise you may as well shut yourself up, because if you don't you will die." That is a typical statement of the alcoholic's dilemma. It describes in a loose way a condition in which we have gone from habit to obsession, to insanity. And the very strange thing is that while this is going on, many of us seem to all outward appearances to be sound and able citizens in other respects. Our minds waver, and we wonder what in thunder is the matter. Recently I attended a dinner given by the Research' Council on Problems of Alcohol. Several of the country's leading authorities on the subject spoke. At the end of the meeting, the chairman, urging the need for research, called attention to the fact that all of these authorities were in serious disagreement as to the fundamental cause. We laymen don't pretend to say just what it is that has ailed us. We know it is deadly. We know it to be hopeless unless the key is turned in the lock to the extent that it has been turned for the members of our group who now number between four and five hundred. I might refer briefly to my own experience... (Here Mr. Wilson gave his own experiences as an alcoholic and in discovering a way out for himself which after seventeen years' continuous drinking had brought him to a condition which leading medical authorities on alcoholism pronounced hopeless, has enabled him to be sober for five years. This experience is given in full in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous," so it seems needless to recount it in this necessarily concise report.) After I had been free from liquor for several months I went to the city of Akron on a business trip, a business trip which promised a great deal to me. It meant perhaps the presidency of a small company; it meant coming from a state of having no business friends or prestige whatever to a state of easy circumstances, and I counted a great deal on it. When I got there the matter bogged down into a proxy fight. Now that was a state of affairs that would have formerly thrown me into a tailspin at once. I was walking up and down the corridor of the hotel without any sure way of getting home, the bill unpaid, and the old thinking started to come back - well, after all, I ought to go into the bar and think things over, I see some nice people in there, etc. - that vague thinking that so often precedes the first drink, even though one may have had delirium but a month before. That sort of thinking was started but immediately I had a feeling of alarm which was new to me. I began to wonder if I should not try to be helpful to someone else in that same position. I had tried to do some alcoholic work prior to this business trip, although without much success. So after inquiring about a little bit, I ran across the gentleman who sits over there, his name is Dr. Bob Smith of Akron. A great many of us hope and believe that Dr. Bob Smith will be known in time to come as the Louis Pasteur of alcoholism, because he has personally done more about it than anybody else, and it was in Akron really that the thing was worked out and so many things were proved of. Bob said afterwards that he expected to spend only fifteen minutes, but as a matter of fact we spent several hours together. I told him of my experience, what I had found, and we talked about drinking. Shortly after that he had one little relapse and that was the last. He has had no more alcoholic trouble since. He himself explains it this way: "For the first time in my life I talked with someone who knew by personal experience what the problem was, and because of that identity of experience you were able to carry to me convictions that I did not have before; one as to my hopelessness and two as to the absolute necessity of finding a spiritual basis for living." Now Bob is a doctor. He knew a great deal about the problem. He had tried many avenues of escape and among those was the religious solution. He had tried them earnestly, and still with no success. Therefore we stumbled upon one of the principles upon which we now operate, and that is that one alcoholic talking to another seems to carry conviction, or, as you might say, packs a wallop that the outsider, no matter how understanding, cannot. That summer in Akron, while my business dragged along into a lawsuit, Bob and I found that we had to work with others to stay alive ourselves. We kept scouring around for prospects. A couple were fat failures. Two fellows we succeeded with, and then I came back to New York. Now I am going to take you on with an account of what happened after I left, because to my mind that is where the real story of this thing begins. There were then three fellows in that town who felt that they must help other alcoholics to get well or die themselves. Then they found that when they tried to help these people, and as they found they could help them, they loved to do it. Now that is exactly what we have all discovered, each in his turn. That is why this organization needs little driving power from the top. Surely if each of us were a member of a conventional organization, and the undertaker and the asylum were just around the corner unless we were reasonably diligent, such an organization would function pretty smoothly. Meanwhile, as an avocation - and that is what it is with all of us - I did some work here in my spare time. I was going on in business then. A few of us sprung up about New York. I began to go back to the hospital over on Central Park West and talk to patients there, and they began to return to their communities and in some cases they started to work. When we came down to about two years ago there were about forty of us whom we thought had recovered. Then we began to say to ourselves: well, here, we owe it to other men in this dilemma to let them know how they can get well. Moreover we felt that we ought to have a book which would represent a pool of our experience down to that particular time, feeling that enough had been proved to be surely of distinct help. Another thing we felt necessary was the matter of getting the advice and counsel of people outside our group. And so it was that the Alcoholic Foundation came into being. Well, then the book was written and that book, I hope, has no theory in it. It is all our own experience as we see it, and it sets out in detail the methods that we employ, so that an alcoholic at a distance, be he a person of enough determination and substance, can take hold of that hook, follow its directions and get well. As in fact some men seem now to be doing alone. To continue with what had happened out in Akron. By the time the book was published last April there were about one hundred of us, the majority of them in the West. Although we have no exact figures, in counting heads recently, we think it fair to state that of all the people who have been seriously interested in this thing since the beginning, one-half have had no relapse at all. About 25% are having some trouble, or have had some trouble, but in our judgment will recover. The other 25% we do not know about. In Akron the club had got up to a membership of forty or fifty when some people in Cleveland began to hear about it. One of those fellows was a chap who is here tonight, by the name of Clarence Snyder. Clarence began to work around among people in Cleveland and began to attend Akron meetings - this goes back some two years - so little by little a nucleus was formed in Cleveland of people who were getting well. By this same spilling over method two men appeared after a time in Chicago, and in the fall of this year they were joined by a woman alcoholic who had some means and spare time. I was there, for the first time, by the way, about two weeks ago. I found thirty people there in that Chicago group whom I had never seen. Twenty-six of them had had no relapse. The book is finding its way over the country. It is being used by doctors and sanitariums. The Alcoholic Foundation, to date, as the result of publicity and the book, has had about a thousand inquiries. Fortunately these inquiries are on the whole very good material, because they emanate from people and families who have tried about everything else. Those men and those women having alcoholic trouble who write in and demand personal contact are prima facie good prospects. The results, so far as percentages go, are beginning to be impressive with the lapse of time. Enough has been demonstrated to be worth while, eminently worth while. But what the final verdict of medicine will be I do not know. We have here tonight Dr. Blaisdell, who is head of the Rockland State Hospital. The doctor thinks enough of us to allow us to talk to committed alcoholic cases, and ten of them have been liberated since last summer. About twenty more are just now coming out. Our group over in Jersey numbers, oh, say forty. I should think about one-third of that group are people who have come out of Overbrook, the county place over there. And we have some men in this room who have been out of Greystone for a year or so without any relapse. We are finding that the asylum boys and girls, as we call them, are very good prospects, provided they are not otherwise impaired. It is obviously not difficult to convince them that they are "behind the 8 ball." And if we carry that conviction to a man once, he accepts a spiritual solution for his difficulties rapidly. To date, more than 400 of us know that we have found an answer to the alcoholic riddle. So that is, in effect, what is going on, and the opportunity of coming here to tell you gentlemen about it is deeply appreciated by all of us of Alcoholics Anonymous." Mr. Scott then introduced Dr. Foster Kennedy as one who has been in touch with this group and who knows about what they are doing, ending in these words: "I suppose most of you know Dr. Kennedy by reputation. But for fear that there may be some obscure people here who do not, let me say that he is a neurologist, born and trained as a physician in Ireland and England. He is now Professor of the Clinical Division of Cornell Medical University, and in charge of Alcoholics in Bellevue. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, the Royal Society in London and served during the World War with distinction. And if you are interested in the further record of his degrees and medals, I refer you to Who's Who." DR. KENNEDY: "Gentlemen, I am exceedingly glad to be here. I had a friend and patient who became interested in this movement. She had a very unhappy, in fact quite desperate situation. It has not been one of the complete successes of this group, but she at least has stayed in the course longer with the aid of these ideas than at any other time in her adult life, and the effect of these doses still is working in her and I believe she will reach health. I am sure she will. I don't think I ought to make a long speech. You have been told in simple and most affecting language the story of this movement. I think I perhaps might be allowed, if it has not already been spoken of before I was able to get here, to speak of a review that appeared in the Journal of the American Medical Association." MR. SCOTT: "It has not been referred to." Dr. Kennedy then read to the audience a review which appeared in the Journal of the American Medical Association of the 14th of October. It was a review of the book "Alcoholics Anonymous." At the outset the reviewer spoke of the seriousness of the psychiatric and social problem represented by addiction to alcohol, stating: "Many psychiatrists regard addiction to alcohol as having a more pessimistic prognosis than schizophrenia...." "Schizophrenia," Dr. Kennedy interpolated, "is at the moment the fashionable name for dementia praecox. That is the progress that has been made regarding this disease in thirty years. (Laughter) Each ten years we medicos have another name for these things and it is wrong now to speak of schizophrenia as dementia praecox. But it is a serious condition." In continuing with the review which described "Alcoholics Anonymous" " a curious combination of organizing propaganda and religious exhortation" . . . and closed with the words: "The one valid thing in the book is the recognition of the seriousness of addiction to alcohol. Other than this, the book has no scientific merit or interest."...Dr. Kennedy continued: "I did not like that review much and I sent a letter to the editor of the Journal of the American Medical Association and asked him to put it among the, oh, trivia, or whatever they would put it in. But he wrote a very decent letter back and said he thought no good purpose could be served by publishing my letter. One never likes to see one's child aborted, so I thought I would read you my reply here: ‘Sir: An unsigned review appeared in the Journal of the American Medical Association October 14th of ‘Alcoholics Anonymous,' the story of how more than 100 men have recovered from alcoholism. The cheapish tone of the review is surely a reflection on the thoughtfulness, the experience, and the innate kindliness of the reviewer, and not at all indicative of lack of humane spirit in the Journal. The aim of those concerned in this effort against alcoholism is high, their success has been considerable and I believe medical men of good will should aid these decent people rather than loftily condemn them for not being scientific. One might ask the reviewer to produce a book on the subject of alcoholism concocted by him out of "pure science." Medicine, surely, is Science touched with emotion. It is quicker and more precious in vivo than in vitro. This group of workers I have regarded as enlisting Belief and the herd-instinct to fortify and implement emotionally men's actions. In doing so they have chosen well-tried weapons. It would be unfortunate if the opinion of your "Cynic Anonymous" be given too wide credence by our profession which has never before refused to use faith to move mountains.' I thank you." In presenting the next speaker, Rev. Harry Emerson Fosdick, D.D., Mr. Scott said in part: "I will not attempt to introduce Dr. Fosdick to this audience. I know of course that you all know him perfectly well. I simply want to say one thing about him in addition to these other qualities. I consider him my guide, counselor and friend. Dr. Fosdick." DR. FOSDICK: "Mr. Chairman and friends: I suppose we all wish that this problem of alcoholism could be solved by prevention rather than cure. There is a famous test of sanity: namely, turn a faucet into a basin and ask the patient to dip out the basin. If he starts to dip out the basin without turning off the faucet first he is probably an imbecile; if he has sense enough to turn off the faucet first the chances are he is normal. We wish we could turn this faucet of alcoholism off. I don't know how we are going to do it. We tried prohibition and that did not work. But I sincerely hope that this movement which starts on the curative side of dipping out those who have fallen into alcoholism may indicate a coming psychological revolution in this country against the mad extremes to which the use of alcohol is going, and that it may lead to preventive measures. In the meantime, however, we face the need of helping out those who fall under the spell of this habit. Just as we all would like to have an economic system that would abolish poverty, but still face the fact that the poor are here who must he helped, so is it with alcoholism. There is a particular reason why the appeal of the alcoholic is strong. Alcoholism does not affect simply the riffraff of humanity. It commonly afflicts some of the most charming, lovable and valuable people in the community. Every one here, going back over the recollection of his friends, would at once validate that statement. The alcoholics that I have known have commonly been among the most charming, convivial, and congenial people. I well remember one of the handsomest men in college in my day, one of the best musicians, one of the best students. I never will forget in his senior year his meeting me one night on the campus - we had all been worried about his condition - and throwing his arms around me, saying, "Fosdick, it has got me, it has got me." Well, it had. He was fired from college and a year or two later forged his father's check and shot himself. Every one of us can remember these lovable, able, efficient, charming personalities that have fallen under the curse of alcohol. There is a particular appeal in any movement that promises to rescue men like these from their thralldom. Dr. Foster Kennedy, speaking from the standpoint of the scientific medical man, has expressed his interest in this movement. As a minister I am interested too, because cases in this field are laid month after month upon the minister's doorsill. Just as Dr. Kennedy would say that a certain measure of success attends the efforts of the neurologist, so a minister would say that a certain amount of success attends his efforts. We all of us have happy memories of cases that have come to us, in one degree or another the victims of alcohol, and we have helped to get them on their feet, have brushed them off and sent them back high, wide and handsome. But the percentage of failures is appalling, and there comes a place where the degree of obsession is so terrific, as Mr. Wilson has pointed out, that a minister is baffled, and turns frantically wherever he can hope to find some help. There are two or three special reasons why this movement, which has been presented to you tonight, interests me and seems to me to have unusual promise in it. In the first place, this idea of setting an ex-alcoholic to catch an alcoholic is good. You remember the title of Charles Reade's novel, "Put Yourself in His Place." You cannot really help a man in tragedy unless you can put yourself in his place. What good am I, then, in dealing with an alcoholic? I cannot stand liquor; I go to sleep on a glass of wine; I could not be a drunkard if I wanted to; I don't like the taste of alcohol, hate the effect of it, cannot stand it. Now a fellow who is in the grip of alcoholism comes to me. I cannot put myself in his place. There are certain areas where I can help people. I can help people in Dr. Foster Kennedy's realm, for the simple reason that I have been through a complete nervous breakdown, and with all due respect to the neurologists, once in a while I think I can supplement what they do. For while a neurologist knows more in a minute about a nervous breakdown than I do in a week, there are a lot of them who have never been through a nervous breakdown themselves. So I often help in cases that come to me in various stages of nervous decomposition. The other day I said to a young neurotic, who started to tell me how he felt, "Wait a minute, you don't need to tell me how you feel. Let me tell you how you feel." I gave him a blueprint of all the feelings and thoughts that were going on inside of him, and when I was through he said, "My God, how did you know that?" I could put myself in his place, but I cannot do it with an alcoholic. Now comes a movement, an astonishingly apt and pertinent movement, where men who have been in the thick of this thing, who have faced the hopelessness of the situation, who have felt that they never could get well, have found resources of strength and have come out and there is not a thing about alcoholism they do not know. I think that psychologically speaking there is a point of advantage in the approach that is being made in this movement that cannot be duplicated. I suspect that if it is wisely handled-and it seems to be in wise and prudent hands - there are doors of opportunity ahead of this project that may surpass our capacities to imagine. There is another element in this movement that interests me - its tolerance, its breadth, its inclusiveness, its catholicity. If this were a movement that thought it had a panacea, that had a neat exclusive formula, that was dogmatic about it, I would have my fingers crossed. But here is a movement that puts its arm around medicine on one side and religion on the other and says, we will take in everything that can help us, that crosses all boundaries of sect and creed and is ready to use any resources of assistance that are available. These men are open-minded, not supposing that they have a neat formula that settles everything. I think the spirit in which this work is carried on is wise and promising. Still another element in this movement greatly concerns me. Just as Dr. Kennedy would be interested in the medical aspects of it, I am interested in the religious aspects of it. It is a movement which treats on equal terms Jew, Roman Catholic, Protestant and even agnostic. Mr. Wilson, I am right, am I not, you told me you had always been an agnostic?" MR. Wilson: "Very much so." Mr. FOSDICK: "He did not say that when he spoke, but I think it will help you to get this background of Mr. Wilson's irreligion. He was not a religious man. He came into this experience out of fairly pugnacious agnosticism. Confined in an asylum, laid up by alcoholism, he reached the end of his rope, hopeless, no way out at all, until one day he said, If there be a God I will throw myself back on any God there is. Here is a discovery, it seems to me, on the part of people who come from Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism and agnosticism, of one of the most elemental experiences in religion - the inner tapping of resources of power beyond ourselves. A whipped man morally feels like a pool that is exhausted. It is as though all the strength he had were a pool on the surface of his life, and the sun has been too hot and it has dried up, there is nothing more for him to rely on. Then he discovers this elemental religious experience and he does not feel like a pool any more but like a river; there is a lot of water coming down from upstream if he will keep the channels open; the sources of power are no longer so much in him as through him. Ruskin used that idea, you will remember, in describing great artists, some of whom he said knew they were doing the best work that had ever been done, but they were very humble about it because, said Ruskin, they all knew that the power was not IN them but THROUGH them. To use the figure of Prof. Wieman of the University of Chicago, it is as though a man could inwardly throw a switch and complete a circuit and lo, the waiting power comes in. A lot of these men, as I have touched this group, have gotten at God that way, not theoretically, not as a matter of speculation but rather in a moment of despair they found out how to throw a switch and complete a circuit, and lo, something came into them. They call it God. It is God. I remember as a boy I was brought up near Niagara Falls. I was there when the turbines were put in at the power plant, and I shall never forget the first time I saw that man walking quietly around in the room in which their controls were located. He was not creating power, he was releasing it. We never create power. Nobody ever created any of his own physical power. You do not blow on your hands and create power. All power comes from assimilation, we take it in. These men have gotten somehow at this inner core of religion, deeper than Judaism, deeper than Roman Catholicism, deeper than Protestantism, underlying them all, experienced in them all, so that men from all these different fields meet on equal terms in this group, and the agnostics come in too, who never have had any theories of God, but now have found His power. Throw a switch, complete the circuit! Stop being a pool, become a river! Do not create power! You cannot! Release power! I call that an essential experience of religion, and I am interested to see a group that has run on it in this utterly unconventional, unorthodox way and is so inclusive, taking in all sorts and conditions of men from all kinds of religious and irreligious backgrounds, finding here the one spiritual dynamic that can lift a man out of the mire when nothing else can. Last of all, I admire the quietness, the anonymity with which this movement is carried on. Very small overhead financially, no big organization, nobody making anything out of it, no high-salaried staff, people for the love of it sharing with others the experience that has meant life to them - that is good work. No one is a prophet, but I suspect that there is a long road ahead of this movement." DINNER GIVEN FEBRUARY 8th, 1940 AT THE UNION CLUB BY MR. ROCKEFELLER, JR: ON BEHALF OF "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS" Acceptances: Mr. Frank B. Amos Mr. Gordon Auchincloss Mr. Stephen Baker Mr. James G. Blaine Dr. R. E. Blaisdell Dr. Godfrey L. Cabot Mr. William G. Creamer Mr. Lincoln Cromwell Mr. Horace Crystal Mr. James S.Cushman Mr. Benjamin M. Day Mr. B. R. Donaldson Mr. A. LeRoy Chipman Mr. Fred I. Eldridge Mr. Henry J. Fisher Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick Mr. Robert Garrett Mr. Wm. Albert Harbison General James G. Harbord Mr. Leonard V. Harrison Mr. Buchanan Houston Dr. Frank B. Jenett Dr. Foster Kennedy Mr. P. Kellogg Mr. Norman Klauder Mr. Samuel H. Kress Mr. C. Walter Lotte Mr. Fitzhugh Mayo Mr. William H. Matthews Mr. Edwin G. Merrill Dr. Seth Milliken Mr. Dave H. Morris Mr. Gilbert H. Montague Mr. Charles F. Noyes Mr. Lewis E. Pierson Mr. W. S. Richardson Mr. Stanley Resor Dr. George W. Riley Mr. Nelson A. Rockefeller Mr. C. M. Rodefer Mr. Leslie R. Rounds Mr. William Ruddell Mr. Morgan Ryan Judge Jacob Gould Schurman, Jr. Dr. William J. Schieffelin Mr. Albert L. Scott Dr. D.R. Sharpe Mr. Carlton M. Sherwood Mr. Robert A. Shaw Dr. W. D. Silkworth Mr. Clarence H. Snyder Dr. R. H. Smith Mr. James M. Speers Dr. Allen A. Stockdale Dr. Leonard V. Strong, Jr. Mr. H. F. Taylor Mr. Samuel Thorne Mr. Thomas J. Watson Mr. Wendell L. Willkie Mr. William Wilson -from the Rockefeller Archive Center, North Tarrytown NY IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3625. . . . . . . . . . . . When did Bill W. decide that AA needed an archives? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2006 8:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII When did Bill Wilson decide there was a need for archiving AA material and history? Surely it was before Nell Wing started GSO Archives in 1975! Thanks! Bob S. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3626. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sylvia Kauffmann update From: brian thompson . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/5/2006 11:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello All, Found this at http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Sylvia%20Kauffmann When she wrote this update in 1969, Sylvia had been living in Sarasota, Florida, with her husband, Dr. Ed Sunderlund, and was soon to celebrate their eighteenth wedding anniversary. From this I would assume that Sylvia was sober from Sep 13th 1939 to at least Jan 1969, that's almost 30 years. Love In Sobriety, BRIAN T. Spring Grove, Illinois and Camp Verde, Arizona -------------------------------------------------- An AA Grapevine article written by her was originally published in the January 1969 issue and reprinted in the November 1999 AA Grapevine, under the category of "Big Book Authors." This was the concluding ninth article in the "Special Section: Big Book Authors, Revisited" from the November 1999 issue. I have picked out a few of her comments, in which she tells about her Chicago days, and talks about her later years in Florida. -------------------------------------------------- AA Grapevine The Keys to the Kingdom -- Sylvia Kauffmann January 1969 Don't Take Our Word For It An early Chicago member wrote her sequel to her story "The Keys to the Kingdom." The first ten years of AA in the Chicago area (1939 through 1949) were years filled with much activity. During the first four or five years, the activity was at times even feverish. Our numbers were small when AA received its first national publicity, so all of us were pressed into service in an effort to answer the flood of requests that poured in from all over the Midwest .... By 1955, when I wrote my story for the revised edition of Alcoholics Anonymous, our membership in the Chicago area alone had grown from six members to six thousand. Now, there were many to carry on the work. The group did not need us in the same degree as it had earlier .... My faith in our program continues to increase through my personal experience with it. The last thirteen years have found me still striving toward the shining goals laid out for me long ago. I now live in Florida with my husband, and we will soon be celebrating, most happily, our eighteenth wedding anniversary. He is an alky, too, and our lives have been enriched by our mutual faith and perseverance in the AA way of life. Through it we have found a quality of happiness and serenity that, we believe, could not have been realized in any other way. Small wonder our gratitude knows no bounds. S.B.S., Sarasota, Florida IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3627. . . . . . . . . . . . Natural instincts/character defects in 4th step From: joet.pittsburgh . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2006 6:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know how the three-column inventory in Big Book Step 4 came about? I'm more specifically interested in how the connection was made between the natural instincts (self-esteem, security, sex, personal relations) and the character defects (selfish, self-centered, etc.). The elaboration in the 12 and 12 is O.K., but provides no insight as to where this idea came from. thanks, ---joe __________________________ A note from the moderator: Talking about the natural instincts (such as the sex instinct and the desire for material security) as God-given, and not evil in and of themselves, can be found in the Oxford Group literature. See for example A[rthur] J[ames] Russell, "For Sinners Only" (Tucson, Arizona: Hats Off Books, 2003; orig. 1932), where he has a long discussion of both of those natural instincts. In Oxford Group literature, it's the way we handle these natural instincts that determines whether our behavior will be sinful or not. I talk about this a little in the book I just wrote, which will be coming out in another month or two, "Changed by Grace: V. C. Kitchen, the Oxford Group, and A.A." The way Bill Wilson links this idea to the vices (the character defects) seems to be original with him, in terms of what I have read myself in the Oxford Group literature and other theological literature from that period. But I could be wrong, and we have people in this group who know more about some of that literature than I do. Bill W.'s basic strategy (where getting into sin and vice means letting the natural instinct become unbalanced, where we are going to one extreme or the other) is oddly enough basically the same strategy which the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle followed in his "Nichomachean Ethics." Aristotle tells us to "seek the Golden Mean," the balance point between going to extremes in either direction. And St. Thomas Aquinas defends Aristotle on this doctrine at one point in the "Summa Theologica." But I sure can't figure Bill W. out as an Aristotle scholar or an Aquinas scholar, and my first inclination would be to doubt that he got it directly from either of those thinkers. Nevertheless, this shows that Bill W.'s system can be defended philosophically as a sophisticated and intelligent answer to the problem. Glenn Chesnut, Moderator South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3628. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Natural instincts/character defects in 4th step From: Jim B . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2006 8:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Subject: Natural instincts/character defects in 4th step Does anyone know how the three-column inventory in Big Book Step 4 came about? Parlor game from the OG put on paper. I'm more specifically interested in how the connection was made between the natural instincts (self-esteem, security, sex, personal relations) and the character defects (selfish, self-centered, etc.). Read "The Neurotic Personality of Our Time" by Karen Horney (1937). This book contains a complete chapter on how neurosis always manifests itself in a drive for money, power and prestiege. "For Sinners Only" by A.J. Russell (1932) Contains a chapter on "self" and how it manifests itself. "A Note On The Impluications of Psychiatry, the Study of Interpersonal Relations, for Investigation of Social Sciences," Harry Stack Sullivan, Published in American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 42, July 1936, May 1937. This is a study of personality characteristics and the path along which their influence may be minimized or removed. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3629. . . . . . . . . . . . When did James Houck quit drinking? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/3/2006 11:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Messages from Arthur Sheehan, Kilroy, Barefoot Bill Lash, and Joe (Pittsburgh). Message from: "ArtSheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Date: Thu Aug 3, 2006 10:59 pm Dear Kilroy It might be equally wise to not believe everything one hears. If James H got sober a day after Bill W then his dry date is December 12, 1934 (not December 11 which was Bill's dry date). According to Bill W's written recollections his first visit to Calvary Mission took place on December 7, 1934 (see "AA Comes of Age" pgs 58-64 - you have to calculate the date based on the elapsed time Bill states from his first visit to Calvary Mission and his final admission to Towns Hospital on December 11, 1934). This was prior to the date that James H says he sobered up on (December 12). The individual identified in "AA Comes of Age" as having led the meeting at Calvary Mission on Bill W's first visit was Tex Francisco. Bill, by the way was quite drunk and brought along a drinking companion he found on the way named "Alec the Finn." Bill made a spectacle of himself and was on the verge of being thrown out when Ebby T happened by and intervened in Bill's behalf. By his own admission, James H did not start to attend AA meetings until the 1980s. May his soul rest in peace and may he know infinite joy with his Creator. Cheers Arthur ------------------------------- Original Message from kilroy@ceoexpress.com (kilroy at ceoexpress.com) Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Passing of Jim Houck Cindy, don't believe everything you read...Jim said that he was sober and leading the meeting at Calvary mission the day Bill walked in to his first mgt. ______________________________ From: (kilroy at ceoexpress.com) Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 3:33 pm Wait a min. I'm not writing some of the stuff ... to AAHistoryLovers. Kilroy ______________________________ From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) Date: Tue Aug 1, 2006 10:03 pm Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Passing of Jim Houck My friend (and a great man) James Houck said many times that his sober date was 12/11/34 so Cindy is correct. Just Love, Barefoot Bill ______________________________ From: "joet.pittsburgh" (joet.pittsburgh at yahoo.com) Date: Thu Aug 3, 2006 4:52 pm Subject: Re: Passing of Jim Houck If James said this, where is it on record? In a taped interview, the first time he met Wilson was in Maryland, not New York. Moreover, I have a copy of the membership list for the O.G. Metropolitan Team from that year, and Houck is not on it. ---joe IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3630. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did Bill W. decide that AA needed an archives? From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2006 8:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In one sense, the "AA Archives" began in the late 1920s and early 1930s, while Bill was still drinking, when Lois Wilson, convinced that Bill was or somehow would be "a great man," began saving copies of some of his correspondence. ernie kurtz Robert Stonebraker wrote: > > > When did Bill Wilson decide there was a need for > archiving AA material and history? Surely it was > before Nell Wing started GSO Archives in 1975! > > Thanks! > > Bob S. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3631. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Natural instincts/character defects in 4th step From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/7/2006 12:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W also addresses the matter of instincts exceeding their proper function in the 12and12. In the Step 4 essay in the 12and12: "Nearly every serious emotional problem can be seen as a case of misdirected instinct. When that happens, our great natural assets, the instincts, have turned into physical and mental liabilities. Step Four is our vigorous and painstaking effort to discover what these liabilities in each of us have been, and are." Similar commentary occurs throughout the essays. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3632. . . . . . . . . . . . Who was the "promoter" in the Rule 62 story? From: Archie Bunkers . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/1/2006 4:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who was this 'promoter member' who sent the Rule #62 story, or was this an example of poetic license? Archie _____________________________ 1940 Early, the "Rule #62" story was sent to Bill W in a letter from a chastened and humbled "promoter member." (AACOA 103-104, 12and12 147-149, NG 107) The story is a key part of the 12and12 essay for Tradition 4. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3633. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Who was the "promoter" in the Rule 62 story? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/8/2006 10:40:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Archie I would love to find out both who the "super promoter" member was as well as the group. I don't get a sense that Bill W was exercising poetic license. The definite answer is likely in the GSO archives if the letter and card (or copies) sent in to the NY Office by the promoter are preserved (and/or the letter asking for an "official charter"). The story is discussed in the 12and12 essay on Tradition 4, in "AA Comes of Age" and in the book "Not God." So it seems grounded on experience. The book "Not God" (pg 107) states 1940 as the year of the promoter sobering up and the incident and correspondence. Bill W states in "AA Comes of Age" (pgs 103-106) that the letter and card sent in by the super promoter was explicit to the notion in Tradition 4 that each group has the right to be wrong. My research on the history: The short form of Tradition 4 reads "Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole." The long form of Tradition 4 reads "With respect to its own affairs, each AA group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect AA as a whole without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount." In a March 1948 Grapevine article Bill W wrote that the long form of Tradition 4 repeats and specifically emphasizes the spiritual principles contained in both Traditions 1 and 2. There is a great deal of repetition in the Traditions. It's not always evident in the short form but is very prominent in the long form of the Traditions. The 12and12 Tradition 4 essay states that over the years, every conceivable deviation from AA's 12 Steps and Traditions has been tried. That shouldn't be a surprise - alcoholics are an extreme example of self will run riot. These deviations, however, have also created a body of trial and error experience that can be used to benefit all. Every group has the right to be wrong and is free to work out its own customs, meeting formats, service structure and many other things. But freedom also requires responsibility otherwise it becomes anarchy. Each group is responsible to avoid any action that might harm others, whether it's AA's common good, another group or a member. And there have been such actions, or this Tradition would be unnecessary. "AA Comes of Age" (pg 96) states that "Implicit throughout AA's Traditions is the confession that our Fellowship has its sins. We admit that we have character defects as a society and these defects threaten us continually." The experienced group understands that the Traditions are not technicalities. They are proven guides that reinforce the primary purpose of all AA groups and a way to maintain group harmony and unity. Tradition 3 allows any 2 or 3 alcoholics coming together as an AA group to seek sobriety just about any way they like. They can disagree with any or all AA principles and still call themselves an AA group. In fact, any member can disagree with any or all AA principles and still call himself or herself an AA member. That's pretty heady stuff and sounds like risky business. But really it's not. (Bill W also wrote in AA Comes of Age that) this kind of liberty prevents AA from becoming a frozen set of dogmatic (or rigid) principles that couldn't be changed even when obviously wrong. It's our wonderful "democratic anarchy" and it does have checks and balances and ways of sorting itself out. For example, the 12and12 essay on Tradition 4 has a story about an early group that had grandiose plans that predictably fell flat and went down to failure. But it had a happy ending. The story is about "Rule # 62" which is "Don't take yourself too damn seriously." A group in early 1940, decided to involve itself in just about everything and anything. They had extravagant dreams of building a huge alcoholic center that groups everywhere would want to duplicate. There were plans for a club on the ground floor. On the 2nd floor they planned to have a treatment center and a special bank to hand out money to alcoholics to pay their back debts and get them on their feet again. Then on the 3rd floor they planned to have an alcoholism education center. And that was only the beginning. Of course, there was a super-promoter and power driver behind it all. He wrote to the NY office to get an official AA charter for the grandiose plans. The NY office advised him that it didn't issue any kind of charters for any purpose and that similar adventures the super-promoter had in mind had come to some very bad ends elsewhere. Not the least bit fazed, the super-promoter set up 3 corporations and became president of all 3 of them. As an added bonus he also appointed himself manager of the club. All of this would take a lot of money and of course it would be other people's money. In order to keep everyone on the straight and narrow path they adopted 61 rules and regulations. After a while confusion reigned supreme. The power-driver promoter and members finally reached the point where they wished they had paid attention to AA experience when first advised of it. And, upon admitting defeat in a letter sent to the NY office, out of this was born the famous rule #62 "Don't take yourself too damn seriously." The 12and12 states that under Tradition 4 an AA group had exercised its right to be wrong. It also did a service to AA by letting others know what it did wrong and being willing to take the hard lessons they had learned and apply them in a humble and good-natured manner. Even the chief architect and super-promoter, standing in the ruins of his dream, could laugh at himself. Bill W described that as the very acme (high point) of humility. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Archie Bunkers Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 3:33 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Who was the "promoter" in the Rule 62 story? Who was this 'promoter member' who sent the Rule #62 story, or was this an example of poetic license? Archie _____________________________ 1940 Early, the "Rule #62" story was sent to Bill W in a letter from a chastened and humbled "promoter member." (AACOA 103-104, 12and12 147-149, NG 107) The story is a key part of the 12and12 essay for Tradition 4. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3634. . . . . . . . . . . . The natural instincts in Oxford Group teaching From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/9/2006 7:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn F. Chesnut, "Changed by Grace: V. C. Kitchen, the Oxford Group, and A.A." (in press, to appear in October, 2006), page 162, note 94. A. J. RUSSELL AND THE OXFORD GROUP A. J. Russell, "For Sinners Only" (Tucson, Arizona: Hats Off Books, 2003; orig. pub, 1932), pp. 23-25, said that there were two basic natural instincts, which were the desire for Sex and Money. Russell was not interested however in the kind of balancing approach which Bill W. used, where one tried to avoid going to extremes in either direction. In the case of the sex instinct, Russell stated that "any perversion of thought or word or deed" and all "the lusts of the flesh" were to be put down and totally removed. The young men at Oxford University were told that masturbation was sinful, and we know that Frank Buchman believed that he could "change" homosexuals and transgender people, although there is no evidence that he ever did any long term follow-up (a three-year or five-year follow-up) on those whom he believed he had changed. Russell attempted to dress up this old rigid, puritanical approach in the new Freudian psychiatric language by saying that this was to be done, not by "suppression, but sublimation." To begin with, he got the Freudian terminology wrong! He should have said "not by REPRESSION but by suppression and sublimation." And although Freud -- who had to survive in the traditional Roman Catholic milieu of Vienna -- had to state publicly that some people could live in total chastity by sublimating all their sexual desires, Freudian psychiatrists when working with patients did not usually see that as a viable option, particularly with younger people. In the case of the natural desire for money (as a means to obtain food, clothing, and housing), Russell simply stated that "if no work was available, then we must live on Faith and Prayer," and gave numerous examples of Oxford Group workers who seem to have survived for long periods of time, without holding any kind of salaried job at all, on donations, gifts, and grants from people who wanted to support their evangelistic work. We also must remember that the Oxford Group members tended to be, for the most part, either carefree students at elite universities or fairly affluent professional people, who took having money (and being able to make money) for granted. ______________________________ NEO-FREUDIAN PSYCHIATRY Early A.A. changed this approach drastically. As was pointed out by Jim B jblair@videotron.ca (jblair at videotron.ca) in Message 3628 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3628 the early A.A.'s got their perspective on the natural instincts from the Neo-Freudians. Jim cites Karen Horney, "The Neurotic Personality of Our Time" (1937) which contains a complete chapter on how neurosis always manifests itself in a drive for money, power and prestige. Also Harry Stack Sullivan, "A Note On The Implications of Psychiatry, the Study of Interpersonal Relations, for Investigation of Social Sciences," American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 42, July 1936, May 1937. The Neo-Freudians whom the early A.A.'s read and were most influenced by included not only Horney, but also Adler, who was a very important influence on A.A. thought. This particular group of Neo-Freudians believed that Freud had been wrong in trying to derive all of our neuroses from influences on us during our first three years of life only. This group believed that we had to look at our later childhood years as well, and traumas and negative forces which we experienced later on, all the way down to the age of 12 to 14, and sometimes even afterward. This meant people like the ten year old who tries alcohol for the first time, gets drunk out of his mind, and drinks to excess, every time he drinks, for all the rest of his life. Or the girl who is sexually abused by a relative at the age of thirteen. Or a boy who runs away from an abusive foster home at the age of fourteen and lives on the streets for several years. Or the child who decides, at the age of six or eight, that "nobody in my family loves me." Or the little boy who realizes, at an early age, that "if I don't fight anybody who gets near me, I will be stomped into the ground by life." Or children who feel inferior because they are too fat, or too thin, or because their noses are too long or too short, or are no good at athletics, or don't have the proper clothes to wear, or do poorly in all their school work, or do too well in all their school work (you can get hated that way too!), or belong to a different race or religion than most of their classmates. This is all simple, common sense stuff, not heavy handed Freudian complexes, where it takes a doctoral degree to even understand what all the complex terminology means. The importance of Neo-Freudian psychiatric theory was as true in Akron as in New York. One of the ten books on the recommended reading list handed out to Akron alcoholics at the time they were checked into the hospital by their sponsors for detoxing, was Ernest M. Ligon, "The Psychology of Christian Personality," which had a Neo-Freudian approach. See http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html I should warn that the version of the early "Akron Manual" currently being sold by the Akron intergroup LEAVES OFF the recommended reading list of ten books which all A.A. beginners should read (which was originally part of that manual), thereby giving a seriously distorted view of early Akron A.A. You read the Manual in its present form, and you get the impression that all they read was the Bible. They certainly did read the Bible, but it was only one of the ten books on their recommended reading list. I believe that the distribution of this "edited" version of the Akron Manual is one of the major things responsible for some of the current misunderstandings and distortions about how early Akron A.A. people really thought. The most important representative of the Neo-Freudian approach (among those who were themselves A.A. people) was Sgt. Bill S., who began as a protege of Mrs. Marty Mann when he got sober on Long Island in 1948, but also spent a year learning from Sister Ignatia in Akron, and later worked with famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West in developing the Lackland Method for alcoholism treatment. In the case of his own life, which Sgt. Bill uses as an example of the way alcoholics develop alcoholic thinking patterns, it was not the first three years which got him into psychological trouble, but the following years, going all the way up to the end of high school. See http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html for his life story, and http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html for a chapter from that book in which he explains the unconscious psychological forces which push alcoholics to drink, in a futile attempt at self-medication. What Sgt. Bill meant by the unconscious were the simple, common sense things which we discovered about ourselves (and our real motives and hidden character defects) when we did a real fourth step. It did NOT mean the kind of old fashioned heavy handed Freudian preoccupation with the Oedipus complex, penis envy, our early toilet training, and all the rest of that kind of thing. It was talk of Freudian complexes which Dr. Bob warned Bill W. about in that famous statement which is so often quoted, not the kinds of things which Sgt. Bill S. and Ernest Ligon were talking about. ______________________________ ABSOLUTE PURITY Glenn F. Chesnut, "Changed by Grace: V. C. Kitchen, the Oxford Group, and A.A.," pages 159-160, note 87. Even those early A.A.'s who continued to support the Oxford Group concept of the Four Absolutes realized that if A.A. officially attacked and preached against masturbation and GLBT people (gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender and transsexual people), this was going to fly in the face of all of the best modern psychiatry. So whereas Absolute Purity was totally about sex for A. J. Russell, the early A.A. people who continued to use that term removed all sexual references from it, and totally reinterpreted it. The Cleveland pamphlet on "The Four Absolutes" (which is undated but seems to come from a fairly early period in A.A. history) is still published by the Cleveland Central Committee of A.A. Copies may be ordered through the Cleveland District Office, 1701 East 12th Street, Lower Level, Cleveland OH 44114. The pamphlet's description of Absolute Purity makes no reference to sex at all, but says: "As far as the mind is concerned, it is a simple case of answering the question, ‘Is it right, or is it wrong?' That should be easy for us. There is no twilight zone between right and wrong. Even in our drinking days we knew the difference .... We know which is right, but do we have the dedicated will to do it?... Were we to contemplate the peace and contentment that a pure conscience would bring to us, and the joy and help that it would bring to others, we would be more determined about our spiritual progress .... If you have turned your will and your life over to God as you understand Him, purity will come to you in due course because God is Good." It should also be said that, regardless of what the Oxford Group literature said, the word "pure" in the Bible was never used in conjunction with sexual matters in even a single passage. The Cleveland A.A. people knew their Bible better than the Oxford Group in this regard. For a typical Biblical usage, see Psalm 24:3-4, "Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? Those who have clean hands and pure hearts, who do not lift up their souls to what is false, and do not swear deceitfully." The Biblical word meant being honest in our dealings with others (Proverbs 15:26) and keeping our promises (Psalm 12:6). For the letter of James it meant, in addition, faithfully carrying out our responsibility to take care of the helpless and downtrodden, instead of being dominated by the kinds of concerns about increasing their own money and property and prestige which totally controlled so many people's lives (James 1:27). In other words, genuinely dealing honestly with other people requires us to act with compassion, instead of insisting on "giving people what they deserve" with a surface pseudo-honesty that hides the deep inner lie about who we ourselves actually are: people desperately in need ourselves for God's mercy and compassion. If you want to check out how words are actually used in the Bible, there is a complete concordance to the entire Bible, in a number of different modern translations (as well as the old seventeenth century King James Version) at http://www.searchgodsword.org/ -- if you search for all the passages which use the word "pure," for example, you can see all the ways that word is actually used. So those who wish to uphold a truly Biblical concept of Absolute Purity should begin by focusing on the lines from Psalm 24:3-4, "Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? Those who have clean hands and pure hearts, who do not lift up their souls to what is false, and do not swear deceitfully." The Biblical concept of purity of heart had nothing to do with sex. As the Cleveland Pamphlet pointed out, it was fundamentally about being totally honest with other people, not lying to other people, and doing what you knew was right. ______________________________ SO WHERE DOES SEX COME IN HERE? People who start following those simple guidelines for maintaining purity of heart will quickly discover that there is no way that a married person can have an affair (for example) without lying, being dishonest, and doing harm to other people, either by commission, OR by omission -- such as not spending time with our children or helping our spouses, because we're out in a cheap motel room somewhere having a fling. When Father Sam Shoemaker carried out the order of Morning Prayer in his church in New York, he led his congregation in the General Confession, which said (among other things): "We have offended against thy holy laws, we have left undone those things which we ought to have done, and we have done those things which we ought not to have done, and there is no health in us." The Southern Methodists who published The Upper Room (the standard meditational book of early A.A.) used that same prayer, for their services were almost identical to the Episcopalian services -- except we didn't use incense, and we called the minister "Brother so and so" instead of "Father so and so"! But the important thing is that sins of omission are listed first in the traditional Prayer of General Confession in the Book of Common Prayer, as being potentially even more serious than sins of commission. This is often one of the hardest things for newcomers to A.A. to grasp. "But we didn't do anything wrong," we hear the newcomers cry, and their sponsors say, "Yeah, but there were things which were right which you ought to have done, and there were responsibilities which you ought to have been taking care of which you totally neglected, and all you did was sit there and do nothing and feel resentful and feel sorry for yourself." Anybody who tries to live by this spirit will find that the answers to questions about how to govern the natural sexual instinct in balanced fashion, are clear and easy to figure out. Be totally honest, don't lie, do what you already know is right, and faithfully carry out all your responsibilities to your spouse, your children, and the vulnerable newcomers to A.A. who do not deserve to be victimized yet again by a heartless sexual predator masquerading falsely as an angel of light. ______________________________ OLD TIME INDIANA AA In my own researches into early Indiana A.A., the overwhelming majority of the good old timers (from the 1940's all the way down to the 1970's) whom I have been privileged to know thought about the sexual issues that way, regardless of whether they talked about the Four Absolutes or were devoted Christians (Baptists, Catholics, Church of the Nazarene, Methodists, Episcopalians, or what have you) or were trained and licensed psychotherapists or whatever. The first two AA groups in Indiana were started by J. D. Holmes (from Akron) and by a twelfth step call by Irwin Meyerson (from Cleveland), so I think it is fair to say that Hoosier AA still has a good deal of the old Akron-Cleveland style AA in it. There were also people like Ken Merrill, who started AA in South Bend, Indiana, who took a more overtly psychological approach (Neo-Freudian naturally, with an emphasis on the effects of "getting stuck" in our childhoods at some place between three years old and sixteen years old or so, but done in simple, common sense fashion) -- http://hindsfoot.org/nsbend2.html But most of the Hoosier old timers saw no conflict between GOOD spirituality and GOOD psychology. On whichever grounds they approached the issue however, with only two exceptions which I was able to find, all of the Hoosier good oldtimers whom I researched, were in agreement with the kind of position I have laid out above: married people could not have affairs if they expected to live with serenity and peace in their hearts. As far as they were concerned, one could not use appeals to "the natural sexual instincts" to justify married people having affairs. There were two of the most famous Hoosier AA good oldtimers who did however flagrantly play around on their wives. The escapades in which one of them was involved were especially notorious -- at his funeral, his wife stood guard by his casket, while his mistress stood guard by the door to the funeral home, and all the AA people who came to pay their respects were made EXTREMELY uncomfortable by that very taut situation -- but I do not see anything to be gained from naming either man's name. The important thing is that all of the other good oldtimers were unanimous in telling the people whom they sponsored, "Don't do that! Don't do like those two guys!" Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3635. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Sylvia K. in Chicago? From: brian thompson . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/12/2006 2:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I just got off the phone (12 August 06) with Sylvia's son Phillip. He told me that she was very active in AA until her death on Oct 31st 1974. Sylvia had been sober since her sobriety date (which he confirmed as) September 13th 1939. She had been sober over 35 years. She was the first woman in AA to achieve long term sobriety. He also gave me a list of some of the other early members of the chicago group. Sylvia met her husband Ed at an AA meeting around 1945/46 in chicago. Ed was also very actively involved in AA until his death in March 1974. He was also sober over 30 years. If I find out any more information I will post in the future. Love in Sobriety, BRIAN THOMPSON IL/AZ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3636. . . . . . . . . . . . Rowland Hazard''s pottery factory in La Luz From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/14/2006 2:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A transcript of the recent newspaper article about Rowland Hazard's Pottery Business in La Luz, New Mexico, from the local newspaper there. Sent in by Ted Harrington (bennettprinting at tularosa.net) ______________________________ *New exhibit at Tularosa Basin Historical Society "La Luz Pottery"* In June 2006, TBHS Museum expanded one of its exhibits, "La Luz Pottery," with the addition of more examples of this beautiful pottery from a private collection. *History of La Luz Pottery* La Luz Pottery was founded in1929 by *Rowland Hazard*, of Rhode Island. Coming from a wealthy family who owned the Allied Chemical Company, Hazard first was introduced to New Mexico in the early 1920's while on his way to California. Car trouble forced him to stop at La Luz. Entranced by the mountains and beauty and desert climate, he learned what he could about the area from the managers of the La Luz Lodge, Mr. and Mrs. Charles Sutton. He returned in 1929 and bought land and water rights in La Luz Canyon. As he began construction on his new summer home, he wanted better quality roof tiles. Consequently, he experimented with the different clays of the area, and found the perfect source right there in La Luz Canyon. He confirmed his beliefs with extensive testing done in California and back East, all attesting the superior quality of the clay. Seeing the potential for a new business, he founded the La Luz Clay Products Company, with its office in New York and its factory in La Luz. As he had the workshop complex built, he hired Thomas Walker from New York State college of Ceramics to be resident manager and Professor Cornelio Rodriguez of Guadalajara, Mexico, to serve as chief potter. The remainder of the staff was hired locally. La Luz Clay Products Company was a success. Hazard visited only occasionally as he oversaw other ventures throughout the country, leaving his New Mexico operation in the capable hands of his staff. *The Products* The success of the company came from the superior quality of the products. The staff used scientific processing to mix various types of clay combined with creative designs and formations for their tiles and pots. What made the products special was the clay. One ceramic engineer commented to Hazard that the roof tiles he was inspecting gave out a beautiful tone like a bell when struck. The staff scientifically mixed the clays to get the nearly perfect quality needed. The La Luz Clay Product"s catalog described the clay as having "an individual coloring of warm pink It is truly typical of the name LA LUZ "the Light," for its rich coloring has a life and light, and its soft tints react delicately to atmospheric conditions, causing the pottery to change in color . . . now deepening, now paling, in a most interesting manner." Their reputation quickly grew. Their first product was roof tiles, and soon they appeared on several New Mexico buildings in the Mission Revival style. Some of the foremost architects specified the use of La Luz roof tiles. By the mid-1930's the La Luz company had expanded its product line to include floor tiles, urns, and a variety of decorative pots, from small to large and plain to decorative. The chimney pots were the smallest and simplest, while the strawberry pots were among the largest (some up to six feet in height) and most complex. Now at the TBHS Museum you can see examples of the variety of products from the La Luz Clay Products, from the roof tiles, to strawberry pots, to lamps. Be sure to come by and see this temporary exhibit. For more information, call the Museum at 505-434-4438. ______________________________ Hope this will be of use for you and all who enjoy our history. Ted Harrington [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3637. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 90 meetings in 90 days From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/4/2006 6:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The statement "Thirty meetings in thirty days" was all-the-go in the Los Angeles area where I sobered up in the mid-1970s. So that version of the slogan goes back at least that far into the past. I notice while vacationing there that they still have newcomers raise their hands during their first thirty days, and of course, the thirty day slogan remains in use. I moved to Indiana in the late seventies and the "Ninety meetings in ninety days" had not yet caught on at that time, but by the early nineties it had become a common chant throughout the mid-west, as it still is. So in terms of the last thirty years of AA history, the slogan seems to have begun in a form where it referred to a 30 day period instead of a 90 day period. But in that form, it appeared before the really big explosion of insurance-funded treatment centers all over the country in the 1980s and early 90s. Bob S. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Toto24522@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:04 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Cc: serenityodaat@yahoo.se Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 90 meetings in 90 days In a message dated 7/18/06 10:09:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, serenityodaat@yahoo.se writes: << The saying "90 meetings in 90 days" is pretty common in AA in Sweden. I recall that i once heard on a speaker tape that this saying was "invented" Cleveland AA in the 50's where they had some sort of "contract" with the Salvation army, that if they took drunks to 90 meetings the Salvation army would let the person stay at the shelter for 90 days. Does anyone have any info around this? Love Anders From the website: http://communities.msn.com/A12StepRecoveryDiner/thoughtsonavisittoakron.msnw As told by Chief Blackhawk (Detroit, 40 years in October, 1998), sitting on the front porch of Dr. Bob's house at 855 Ardmore in Akron, Ohio to Floyd H. of Spring, Texas. ORGANIZATIONS There are vital reasons that we are not allied with any sects, denominations, politics, organizations, or institutions. You want to know what they are? The Cleveland group's experience with an outside organization taught us about the danger of trying that. Get in with another organization, they bring their values and opinions and they seldom are what we know works in helping drunks. When the Clarence Snyder (Home Brewmeister) group formed in Cleveland, an article ran in the Cleveland newspaper, The Plain Dealer. The group was flooded with requests for help, and many were low-bottoms who needed 3-5 days of hospitalization. After being turned down by all the local hospitals and after helping the son of a person associated with the Salvation Army, that organization told Clarence they'd make some beds available for alcoholics. In accepting their aid, two things happened. First, AA became allied with an outside organization; next, they fell under that organization's philosophy about recovering from alcoholism and compromised what the alcoholics knew really worked. In order to get the beds, the AA's violated their own procedures. I asked: So what was that organization's philosophy that went against what AA's had been doing? They answered: The Cleveland Salvation Army had a policy of limiting bed space for anyone to a total of three months. Their motive was noble: We'll help you down-and-out's to get by until you get a job and a place of your own, but to motivate you, weire putting a time limit on our assistance -- you have three months, max. Now, for the alkies coming in, they told them the same thing but added, You also have to visit with a recovered alcoholic daily; that is, you have to meet with them 90 times in 90 days, and we're gonna check to make sure you do. Miss a meeting and you have no bed. You're back on the streets. So instead of taking the drunks through in 3 or 4 hours the way we always did it, or a matter of days at the most, we're now into this 90-in-90 plan. I said: So the Cleveland Salvation Army introduced this thing we hear so often today -- Go to 90 meetings in 90 days? They said, Exactly. And the early Cleveland AA's, desperate to get beds they thought they had to have, compromised their approach to working the steps quickly. But to their great credit, the Cleveland AA's keep meticulous records with Clarence's insistence) and their stats revealed that no one gained any long-term sobriety using that plan. So Cleveland separated itself from the Salvation Army with a valuable lesson: stick to the methods proven successful -- alkies taking alkies through the steps and doing it pronto. After Cleveland got back to doing that instead of the 90-in-90-Salvation-Army plan, the AA's got a 93% success rate over the next several decades. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3638. . . . . . . . . . . . "Take what you need and leave the rest" From: Paul S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/17/2006 8:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everybody In another cyberforum came up a discussion about this AA motto or saying. Something like "Take what you want and leave the rest." It is widely used and can (in my opinion) also be dangerous. (It seems to me that it is wiser to remember the motto, which comes straight from the Big Book, p. 59: "Half measures awailed us nothing") Question: From where comes this sentence? Is it just one more of those things which appeared somewhere and just started being repeated, without anybody ever knowing where it came from? And BTW: Thanks for this interesting-informative forum and its excellent "search-machine." (This time it however "failed.") All the best Paul S. aka soberfinn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3639. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr. Silkworth''s two letters From: gbaa487 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/15/2006 12:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII in the Big Book there are two letters written by Dr. Silkworth. What is the time frame between the two letters, and why were there two eventually written? Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3640. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Take what you need and leave the rest" From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2006 3:17:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Jon Markle" (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) "Take what you need and leave the rest" is a "saying" that is heard often at meetings in Al-anon, and is used in their conference approved literature, more than once. Two at-hand references are: Courage to Change, pg 117 (April 26 reading) and pg 321 (November 16 reading). Now, where that saying originated, I don't know. It is an "axiom" that appears in almost all 12-step literature. But I don't think it appears in AA literature. I cannot say this for certain, but I didn't hear it when I first got sober and certainly, my home group taught me the reverse that was referenced, "half measures avail us nothing." When I did a "search," it came up in all sorts of religious and secular contexts and was not limited to recovery material, but nothing in AA literature, although it was reported in AA settings (groups, chat rooms, e-mail exchange lists, etc.). I believe the saying was originally intended to be used to indicate that there are some things one hears at meetings that simply are not part of recovery via the 12-steps, and while they might be useful, they are not necessarily tools that the 12 steps perpetuate, so one is free to use them or not. The closest thing I heard later on in AA came from my sponsor, which I've used myself: "Take what you need today and put the rest on the shelf for later reference." That's the best I can do you for now. If I find any other references, I'll forward them. Jon Markle Raleigh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3641. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Dr. Silkworth''s two letters From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2006 8:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good morning all! The first letter in "The Doctor's Opinion" was written by Dr. Silkworth on 7/27/38 as a referral letter for AA. The second "statement" is taken from a few different articles that Silky wrote pieced together (see previous posts). I've never been able to find every paragraph in the Big Book from this second "statement" in Silky's articles so I would suspect that some of it even came from conversations that Bill had with him. Namaste. Just Love, Barefoot Bill -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gbaa487 Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 12:52 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Silkworth's two letters in the Big Book there are two letters written by Dr. Silkworth. What is the time frame between the two letters, and why were there two eventually written? Thanks [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3642. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "Take what you need and leave the rest" From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2006 8:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Paul There is an old saying that "imitation is the highest form of flattery." Such seems to be the case for the common expressions and catchphrases in AA today. Slogans and other sayings will eventually spread through AA if they strike members as notable and useful. Discovering primacy in terms of where catchphrases originated is by no means easy to do with confidence due to the autonomous and anonymous nature of AA. Plus there is just far too frequent reliance by members on dubious anecdotal and ambiguous sources that are much more the product of fertile imagination rather than well researched factual information (e.g. the recent posting on "90 meetings in 90 days"). While there are history books and articles maintained by the Fellowship (e.g. AA Comes of Age, Grapevine articles, etc.) local history documentation is quite a hit or miss affair. It might be possible to get an approximation of when particular sayings started in certain locales, but pinning down the origin location is, at best, very difficult. The earliest documented sources I can find thus far for the "take/leave" catchphrase are from 1962 and 1985 Grapevine issues: June 1962 Grapevine article "The Twelve Steps Revisited/Step 8" by J E from Guilford, CN. "Take this thing cafeteria style I was advised. Select what you want and can digest, and leave the rest until later." September 1985 Grapevine article "Your Move" by V F from Eureka, KS. "Though I didn't agree with all the opinions expressed, why should I expect 'our meeting in print' to be different from any other meeting? Take what you need and leave the rest." As far as I have been able to determine to date, the Big Book was never intended to be the "final word" or the be-all and end-all source that so many members make it today. If it were, the 12and12 would not have been written (by the same author). Also the parsing of a particular catchphrase will vary quite a bit among members, particularly when it comes to reading things into a sentence that are not expressly written there. It's one of the things that makes AA so interesting and enjoyable. The "half measures" citation reputedly owes its origin to the 1931 book "The Common Sense of Drinking" by Richard Peabody. It strengthened the concept of alcoholism as an illness and contained the statement "Half measures are to no avail." The book was a prominent reference source in the early AA Fellowship. Peabody died drunk so the catchphrase did not appear to serve him very well. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul S. Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:51 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Take what you need and leave the rest" Hi everybody In another cyberforum came up a discussion about this AA motto or saying. Something like "Take what you want and leave the rest." It is widely used and can (in my opinion) also be dangerous. (It seems to me that it is wiser to remember the motto, which comes straight from the Big Book, p. 59: "Half measures awailed us nothing") Question: From where comes this sentence? Is it just one more of those things which appeared somewhere and just started being repeated, without anybody ever knowing where it came from? And BTW: Thanks for this interesting-informative forum and its excellent "search-machine." (This time it however "failed.") All the best Paul S. aka soberfinn Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3643. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant August Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2006 1:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Folks, I have been so Busy I simply for got the beginging of this month this Month. Significant August dates in AA history Aug 1934 - Rowland H and Cebra persuade court to parole Ebby T. to them. Aug 1939 - Dr. Bob wrote and may have signed article for Faith magazine. Aug 1981 - Distribution of Alcoholics Anonymous passes 3 million. Aug 1, 1943 - Washington Times-Herald (DC) reports on AA clubhouse, to protect anonymity withholds address. Aug 3, 1954 - Brinkley S. gets sober at Towns Hosp after 50th detox. Aug 8, 1879 - Dr. Bob born in St. Johnsbury, VT. Aug 9, 1943 - LA groups announce 1000 members in 11 groups. Aug 11, 1938 - Akron and NY members begin writing stories for Big Book. Aug 15, 1890 - E M Jellinek is born, author of "The Disease Concept of Alcoholism" and the "Jellinek Curve". Aug 16, 1939 - Dr Bob and Sister Ignatia admit 1st alcoholic to St Thomas Hospital, Akron, Ohio. Aug 18, 1988 - 1st Canadian National AA Convention in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Aug 19, 1941 - 1st AA Meeting in Colorado is held in Denver. Aug 25, 1943 - AA group donates Big Book to public library in Quincy, MA. Aug 26, 1941 - Bill writes Dr Bob to tell him Works Publishing has been incorporated Aug 28, 1954 - "24 Hours a Day" is published by Richmond W. Also in August... Sales of the Big Book passes 3,000,000 - August 1981 1st meeting in Orange County, California held in Anaheim - August, 1941 Nancy O, the founder of AAHL Started compiling this list before she passed. I always looked forward to the begining of the month when she posted it. Please feel free to contribute to this list. I will try to keep it accurate, as best I can, so it would be great if you can provide the source of the date. The best way to to get the information is to e-mail it to me Directly. In love and service, Billy C. Annapolis, Md IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3644. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Dr. Silkworth''s two letters From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2006 12:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "gbaa487" wrote: > > in the Big Book there are two letters written by > Dr. Silkworth. > > What is the time frame between the two letters, > and why were there two eventually written? > > Thanks > A photo of first Silkworth letter is dated July 27, 1938, and included in Dale Mitchel's 2002 biog of Doctor Silkworth,The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks [Hazelden-Pittman Archives Press]. That biog indicates that the second letter was dated sometime in early 1939. The first letter from Silkworth is a rather lackluster, general endorsement of the experience of an [unamed] Bill Wilson, a patient who was under treatment from Silkworth three times. The second endorsement letter from Silkworth is much more specific and sweeping. The second letter speaks of the phenomenon of craving, the need for a psychic change, and the need for something more than human power. Silkworth refers to the problem, the solution and the plan of action. Nothing in the Silkworth biog indicates why the second endorsement letter was requested. I have to assume that Bill and Hank, the promoters of the soon-to-be-published book, felt the book needed a stirring rave from a mainstream source. They likely felt that the first letter lacked specifics and sufficient enthusiasm. The text of the Big Book, between the two Silkworth letters, indicates that, "the physician who, at our request, gave us this letter, has been kind enough to enlarge upon his views..." Bill and Hank had both been treated at Towns Hospital, and I imagine one of them just asked Silkworth to amplify the doctor's viewpoint in a followup letter. John Lee Pittsburgh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3645. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Take what you need and leave the rest" From: johnlawlee . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2006 4:21:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jon, Courage to Change is the newer meditation book of Alanon. The cliche about "Take what you need..." is not in the basic Al-Anon literature. The two references to the cliche are just reflections by two Alanon members who heard the cliche at Al-Anon meetings. I don't believe you'll find a reference to this cliche that predates the 1982 pop tune "Reap the Wild Wind". john lee pittsburgh __________________________ From: "Jon Markle" (serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) "Take what you need and leave the rest" is a "saying" that is heard often at meetings in Al-anon, and is used in their conference approved literature, more than once. Two at-hand references are: Courage to Change, pg 117 (April 26 reading) and pg 321 (November 16 reading). > Jon Markle > Raleigh IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3646. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarence S.''s visit to Edmonton From: The Wilsons . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2006 1:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I came across a news article about Clarence S attending the 20th annual Alberta AA Conference in Edmonton. Does anyone know when this conference was held? Bob Wilson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3647. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Take what you need and leave the rest" From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2006 7:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Comments from Ernie Kurtz, Art Boudreault, and Arkie Koehl From: Ernest Kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) Hi Art, As usual, you are so right. In the late 1950s and early 1960s, Bill W. fairly often wrote in letters to someone who had questioned something or other in the Big Book that he had not meant it "to be the last word," but that "members of the fellowship would crucify" him if he tried to change a word, which was one reason why he wrote the essays in the 12and12. In fact, even while composing those pieces (which first appeared in the AAGV), Bill wrote to some that he hoped the essays on which he was working would help to "clarify" some things in the Big Book. Some of those letters, as I recall, are specifically cited in the notes to *Not-God*. ernie kurtz ______________________________ From: "Art Boudreault" (artb at netwiz.net) Dear Paul and others, The closing that is read at Al-Anon meetings begins this way. "In closing, the opinions expressed here were strictly those of the person who gave them. 'Take what you liked and leave the rest'." I have found that much of what is stated in Al-Anon from the early days is rooted in AA literature, but I am unaware where this statement from the AA literature might lie. The "Al-Anon Family Groups Classic Edition", pages 165 - 157, explains that the Al-Anon closing was added to the book "Al-Anon Family Groups" at its fourth printing in May 1973. The statement is clearly meant to warn the members that statements made in meetings by members may or may not be appropriate Al-Anon philosophy or policy. It has nothing at all to do with the statements in Al-Anon's Conference Approved Literature. If it didn't initially come from AA, then it is possible that members of Al-Anon who became AA members or AA members who became members of Al-Anon brought it back to AA. As an aside, AA members who had problems with others who drank too much were officially allowed to attend Al-Anon meetings by vote of the Al-Anon World Service Conference in 1969. Prior to that vote it was up to the autonomy of the Al-Anon group whether to allow AA members into their closed Al-Anon meetings. Bill and Lois always seemed to imply in their early statements that AA members were to attend AA meetings and their relatives, Al-Anon meetings. Bill was clear in stating that AA members should not participate in Al-Anon policy, even if they were also members of Al-Anon. In Al-Anon, the World Service conference made this policy official in 1975 as a response to the 1969 vote, because by 1975, many AA members were finding help in Al-Anon and wanted to be part of the service structure as well. Sincerely, Art Boudreault artb@netwiz.net ______________________________ From: Arkie Koehl (arkie at arkoehl.com) On Aug 19, 2006, at 2:46, ArtSheehan wrote: As far as I have been able to determine to date, the Big Book was never intended to be the "final word" or the be-all and end-all source that so many members make it today. Thanks for this, Art. I think Bill would be embarrassed at the iconic status we've conferred on the BB. Arkie IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3648. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Dr. Silkworth''s two letters From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/19/2006 9:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John Dr Silkworth's July 27, 1938 letter was written under the letterhead of the Charles B Towns Hospital which enjoyed a national reputation in alcohol and drug addiction treatment. In part, it states: "These facts appear to be of extreme medical importance; because of the extraordinary possibilities of rapid growth inherent in this group they mark a new epoch in the annals of alcoholism. These men may well have a remedy for thousands of such situations. You may rely absolutely on anything they say about themselves." This hardly sound like "a rather lackluster, general endorsement" as you frame it. The July 27, 1938 letter was originally written as a letter of reference for Bill W to aid in fund raising for the Big Book project. The Alcoholic Foundation was legally established as a charitable trust the following month (August 5). The letter also served as a medical endorsement in the foundation's fund raising efforts and later was included in its entirety in the Big Book introduction "The Doctor's Opinion.". The second narrative by Dr Silkworth was not a letter. It appears in the Big Book based on a suggestion by Dr Esther L Richardson of John Hopkins Hospital. She was sent a prospectus which included two sample book chapters ("There Is A solution" and "Bill's Story"). A July 18, 1938 letter she wrote to Bill W included a rave review of the two chapters and a recommendation that: "I think you should get an A No. 1 physician who has a wide knowledge of the alcoholic's medical and social problem to write an introduction." The second narrative from Dr Silkworth is that introduction and was written specifically to be included in the Big Book. Part of his introduction states "There was, therefore, a sense of real satisfaction when I was asked to contribute a few words on a subject which is covered in such masterly detail in these pages." I cannot pin down the precise date that the narrative from Dr Silkworth or "The Doctor's Opinion" introduction were written but it was part of the multilith manuscript distributed for review in January 1939. My best "guesstimate" would be that it was written in December 1938. After review of the multilith manuscript, Dr Silkworth was one of the reviewers who suggested easing the tone of the book from "you must" to "we ought." (see AA Comes of Age pgs 167-168). Bill W wrote "And we must never forget that it was Dr Silkworth who wrote the introduction to the first edition of Alcoholics Anonymous, giving the volume medical standing." As an item of AA trivia "The Doctor's Opinion" began as page 1 in the 1st edition and was not changed to Roman numerals until the 2nd edition. The basic text ended at page 174 in the 1st edition, not 164 as it does today. Nobody really knows why Bill W renumbered the pages but there is much entertaining speculation on the matter. Dale Mitchel's biography of Dr Silkworth is a wonderful read and quite revealing of the magnificent character and commitment of Dr Silkworth. He served as a non-alcoholic trustee on the Alcoholic Foundation Board the two years prior to his death and is reputed to have treated over 40,000 alcoholics in his lifetime at Towns and Knickerbocker Hospitals in NYC. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnlawlee Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 11:58 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Dr. Silkworth's two letters --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "gbaa487" wrote: > > in the Big Book there are two letters written by Dr. Silkworth. > > What is the time frame between the two letters, and why were there two > eventually written? > > Thanks > A photo of first Silkworth letter is dated July 27, 1938, and included in Dale Mitchel's 2002 biog of Doctor Silkworth,The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks [Hazelden-Pittman Archives Press]. That biog indicates that the second letter was dated sometime in early 1939. The first letter from Silkworth is a rather lackluster, general endorsement of the experience of an [unamed] Bill Wilson, a patient who was under treatment from Silkworth three times. The second endorsement letter from Silkworth is much more specific and sweeping. The second letter speaks of the phenomenon of craving, the need for a psychic change, and the need for something more than human power. Silkworth refers to the problem, the solution and the plan of action. Nothing in the Silkworth biog indicates why the second endorsement letter was requested. I have to assume that Bill and Hank, the promoters of the soon-to-be-published book, felt the book needed a stirring rave from a mainstream source. They likely felt that the first letter lacked specifics and sufficient enthusiasm. The text of the Big Book, between the two Silkworth letters, indicates that, "the physician who, at our request, gave us this letter, has been kind enough to enlarge upon his views..." Bill and Hank had both been treated at Towns Hospital, and I imagine one of them just asked Silkworth to amplify the doctor's viewpoint in a followup letter. John Lee Pittsburgh Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3649. . . . . . . . . . . . Richard Peabody died drunk? Documentation? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/23/2006 8:59:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Art, Is there any documentation for the statement that Richard Peabody died drunk? Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) _________________________________________ Original Message from: "ArtSheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] "Take what you need and leave the rest" > The "half measures" citation reputedly owes its origin to the 1931 > book "The Common Sense of Drinking" by Richard Peabody. It > strengthened the concept of alcoholism as an illness and contained the > statement "Half measures are to no avail." The book was a prominent > reference source in the early AA Fellowship. Peabody died drunk so the > catchphrase did not appear to serve him very well. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3650. . . . . . . . . . . . Johnstone P.''s story, "You have to give it away..." From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com> . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/20/2006 1:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can someone tell me whatever happened to Johnstone P. from Ohio? His story appeared in the second edition of the Big Book and was missing thereafter. I often hear people quote him at meetings. Mostly they only use one of his four quotes, the one that states, "You have to give it away if you want to keep it." Kilroy W. 4021 Club Philadelphia PA _____________________________________________________________ A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3651. . . . . . . . . . . . 90 in 90 days in Bright Star Press pre-1970 pamphlet From: ricktompkins@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2006 2:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi group, "90 meetings in 90 days"-- who hasn't heard that suggestion in AA at least once? In a Bright Star Press pamphlet that definitely pre-dates 1970 (when the company was printing in Moline, Illinois before moving to Texas) I recently found evidence to what may erroneously be getting attributed to treatment centers. (And, according to Mitchell, the Cleveland Salvation Army story --fabricated? -- adds to the mythology of the phrase's first use.) In a pamphlet (same size as the earliest Akron AA pamphlets) titled "Handles" that has 40+ pages of AA phrases, slogans, and brief recovery support pieces (Handles to help in Sobriety), I found this phrase at the top of one page: "TRY 90 MEETINGS IN 90 DAYS AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT WE CAN REFUND YOUR MISERY" Oldtimers used this phrase, all or part of it, when I came around in the 1980s, so I respectfully estimate its AA use from at least the 1960s. The Bright Star Press record leads me to believe it's an original AA phrase, too, but as to the date of its origin perhaps there's a reference in an early AA Grapevine (via their online archives search program). One of us can find it... rick, illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3652. . . . . . . . . . . . History of closed and open discussion meetings From: jerry . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/21/2006 5:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Questions from Jerry and abigapple about (1) when and where what we now call closed AA meetings (alcoholics only and no spouses allowed anywhere near the premises) first began to be held, and (2) when and where the idea of what are called "open discussion meetings" on modern AA meeting schedules first began to appear. House meetings, which were still held frequently in the U.S. for a long time, commonly had the alcoholics in the living room, but the spouses were in the kitchen, and in the average modest American five room family home, they were within easy earshot of everything that was discussed in the living room, and all parties were involved in the "meeting after the meeting" which occurred afterwards. So this is not a simple, open and shut question of when the alcoholics within the Oxford Group first began to hold meetings "for alcoholics only." CLOSED MEETINGS From "jerry" (jerrytwotord at hotmail.com) Hello group Perhaps someone can help me here. All the reading I've done on our founders seems to point to the fact that our first meetings be they AA or Oxford Group meetings were family affairs. If this is so, just where did the "closed" meeting come in and for what purpose? Is there any documentation of this? Any help is appreciated. Jerry ______________________________ OPEN DISCUSSION MEETINGS From "abigapple2002" (abigapple2002 at yahoo.com) O.K., so I've heard a variety of opinions on whether or not we should have some meetings which are "open discussion meetings." I've also heard a variety of "facts" as to when and how they came about. I thought you all would be a little more reliable in this case as to when the first open discussion meeting came about, where and possibly even why. Thanks a lot. I've just passed three years, and really beginning to have a "thirst" for AA history. Thanks to all of you for being here and being willing to share what you've found. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3653. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Johnstone P.''s story, "You have to give it away..." From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/24/2006 4:13:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Johnstone P. from Ohio? You probably mean John P. from Atlanta. ____________________________ At 00:23 8/20/2006 , kilroy@ceoexpress.com wrote: Can someone tell me whatever happened to Johnstone P. from Ohio? His story appeared in the second edition of the Big Book and was missing thereafter. I often hear people quote him at meetings. Mostly they only use one of his four quotes, the one that states, "You have to give it away if you want to keep it." Kilroy W. 4021 Club Philadelphia PA ____________________________ Do you mean John P who wrote "The Professor and the Paradox"? He was from Atlanta. The four paradoxes are: We surrender to win. We give away to keep. We suffer to get well. We die to live. His bio is here: There is no Johnstone P listed on that site. Tommy H in Baton Rouge [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3654. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "You have to give it away..." From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2006 10:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As a possible item of interest on the give it away/want to keep it paradox, the Tradition 5 essay in the 12and12 (published 1953) states the following: "There is another reason for this singleness of purpose. It is the great paradox of A.A. that we know we can seldom keep the precious gift of sobriety unless we give it away. If a group of doctors possessed a cancer cure, they might be conscience-stricken if they failed their mission through self-seeking. Yet such a failure wouldn't jeopardize their personal survival. for us, if we neglect those who are still sick, there is unremitting danger to our own lives and sanity. Under these compulsions of self-preservation, duty, and love, it is not strange that our Society has concluded that it has but one high mission - to carry the A.A. message to those who don't know there is a way out." Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3655. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Richard Peabody died drunk? Documentation? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2006 10:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mel Re the paper below EARLY ALCOHOLISM TREATMENT: THE EMMANUEL MOVEMENT and RICHARD PEABODY Katherine McCarthy, Ph.D. Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Vol.45, No.1, 1984. http://www.aabibliography.com/historyofaa/reco1.htm There are several references in the paper to Peabody not staying sober "Peabody and his coworkers apparently did not share Baylor's personal success at remaining sober. A common opinion is that Peabody died intoxicated, although the evidence is not conclusive. Samuel Crocker, who had once shared an office with Peabody, told Faye R. that he was intoxicated at the time of his death. The personal copy of Peabody's book belonging to Bill Wilson (one of the founders of A.A.) now in the A.A. Archives, contains the following inscription; "Dr. Peabody was as far as is known the first authority to state, "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic," and he proved it by returning to drinking and by dying of alcoholism - proving to us that the condition is uncurable." This copy was originally owned by Rosa Burwell of Philadelphia. Some early A.A. members share the opinion that Peabody died intoxicated. The published sources contradict each other. Wister quoted Peabody's second wife to the effect that he died of pneumonia. The editors of Scribner's magazine, which published an article of his posthumously, claimed that he died of a heart attack. Mrs. Crosby did not say." Later in the paper: "Although Peabody's method was widely practiced for about two decades, little is known of its overall therapeutic success, and an accurate guess is impossible at this date. Marty Mann concluded that Peabody and his therapists "accomplished a heroic work during the 1930's, when little else was being done for alcoholics" and that the method "was effective with a considerable number"' of patients. It is known that a few remained abstinent and professionally active in the field of alcoholism. Others who failed at the Peabody method were known to have joined A.A. in its early years, but it is impossible to determine how many remained quietly sober without joining A.A. or professional groups. The fact that several of the Peabody method's major practitioners - apparently including the founder - were not able to maintain their sobriety, however, does not bode well for other patients with whom contact was lost." I'm not aware of whether there is proof certain that Peabody died drunk Most of what I've seen is qualified as anecdotal reports. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mel Barger Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 8:00 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Richard Peabody died drunk? Documentation? Hi Art, Is there any documentation for the statement that Richard Peabody died drunk? Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) _________________________________________ Original Message from: "ArtSheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] "Take what you need and leave the rest" > The "half measures" citation reputedly owes its origin to the 1931 > book "The Common Sense of Drinking" by Richard Peabody. It > strengthened the concept of alcoholism as an illness and contained the > statement "Half measures are to no avail." The book was a prominent > reference source in the early AA Fellowship. Peabody died drunk so the > catchphrase did not appear to serve him very well. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3656. . . . . . . . . . . . Dartmoor Bill died Tuesday, 53 years sober From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2006 3:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Dartmoor Bill", who died on Tuesday aged 85, was the longest-sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous in Britain and Europe, having not touched a drink for the past 53 years. His story is available in an article in the online version of the widely read British newspaper, the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILSandgrid=andxml=/n ews/2006/08/\ 26/db2601.xml [9] This was sent in by Ernie Kurtz. The newspaper article contains a good deal of information about the beginnings of AA in Britain. To give a few excerpts from the article: "The first British AA meeting had been held on March 31 1947 at the Dorchester Hotel in London. By 1953 there were only four in the capital (today there are more than 700). Dartmoor Bill found one in Chandos Street, behind the Edgware Road. He immersed himself in AA's '12 Steps', and remained sober. By the 1960s he was a husband and father, making a living as a street-trader; he also trained as an electrician and found stage-lighting work around the West End theatres." "Dartmoor Bill reached his half-century of sobriety in May 2003, and hundreds of AA members celebrated with him at a party given by his wife Eunice at a church hall in Chelsea. Despite the onset of asbestosis, he spoke loud and clear for half an hour, regaling the company with his experience and sense of hope, insisting: 'If you don't take the first drink, you can't get drunk.'" Posted by the moderator [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3657. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Johnstone P.''s story, "You have to give it away..." From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/27/2006 8:30:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Kilroy, I'd heard that Johnstone Parr had passed on. I think he was a professor at Kent State University. The Social Security Death Index lists a Johnstone Parr as born on May 5, 1911 and passing away on May 30, 1991. The Social Security number was 416 34 6270, and it had been issued in Alabama. Place of death was not shown. This could be the same Johnstone Parr, given the unusual first name. Or it could be a coincidence. I always thought it was a shame to remove his fine story from the Big Book after the second edition. But the four paradoxes still survive in AA lore and are sometimes quoted. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3658. . . . . . . . . . . . How to identify 1st printing 1st edition Big Books From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/25/2006 10:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear AA Friends, In the late 1990's, I donated to the Indianapolis (Indiana) Intergroup what I believed was a first printing, first edition Big Book for display in their office. For many years I thought the only large Big Book was the first printing of the first edition, but during a visit to the Akron Inter-group Archives I learned that several of those first edition printings were also of the large variety. After learning this I was, of course, concerned as to whether my gift was really the first printing, and not a later printing of first edition. Recently, Bruce C, from Muncie sent me the following information: 1st Edition, 1st Printing. Page 154, line 29 has "aberrations" misspelled. Page 234, line 27 repeats line 26. Page 391, the story Lone Endeavor is only in this printing. The highlighted page 234 mistake was corrected in the second printing of the first edition and "The Lone Endeavor" story was also exclusive thereby. So, now I could really solve this mystery! Yesterday, I had the opportunity to check this out . The suspense was terrific! I walked into the office, put on the white glove and breathtakingly opened the Big Book. Happy-happy news: IT WAS authentic ! There is another method of authenticating a first printing. In Dr. Bob's Nightmare on page 192 the second line states " . . . nearly four years have passed." But the second printing states: " . . . nearly six years have passed." This alteration continued throughout all the rest of the first edition printings, all of the second edition printings, and up till, I think, the ninth printing of the third edition. So, this information was further evidence in yesterday's quest! Bob S., Richmond, Indiana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3659. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Johnstone P.''s story, "You have to give it away..." From: Jay Lawyer . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2006 9:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Anne Smith's Journal" by Dick B. pg 69 talks some about: "witness-give it away to keep it." Which she used and talked about mornings in the quiet time during the early days of the fellowship. She also said - 'Giving Christianity away is the best way to keep it.' Further on it talks about an early pamphlet and a later book from Rev. Samuel Shoemaker (pg 72-73 etc...) 'about giving it away to keep it.' So this action has been around and known for a looonnnnggggg time. Jay IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3660. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Johnstone P.''s story, "You have to give it away..." From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2006 9:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Kilroy, John Stone Parr, Author of "The Professor and the Paradox" was a Professor at nearby Kent State University and a member of the Cuyahoga Falls "Pilgrim" Group of Alcoholics Anonymous. Woody in Akron, Ohio Kilroy@ceoexpress.com wrote: Can someone tell me whatever happened to Johnstone P. from Ohio? His story appeared in the second edition of the Big Book and was missing thereafter. I often hear people quote him at meetings. Mostly they only use one of his four quotes, the one that states, "You have to give it away if you want to keep it." Kilroy W. 4021 Club Philadelphia PA IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3661. . . . . . . . . . . . Identifying Big Book first printing From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/28/2006 4:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII **With a note from Glenn C. on "spiritual experience"** Hi Bob Thanks for your insight on the differences between the first and later printings of the Big Book. I have probably One of the few copies of "Big Red" in Ireland and will almost certainly donate it some time in the near future. When and to whom is my current dilemma. Perhaps the most important change made to the First printing which you did not mention was the change in the Twelfth step from "experience" to "awakening" and the addition of an appendix on the subject added in the Second printing. I believe it was pointed out to Bill W. that he had his spiritual experience before the steps were written. Also some members thought they could not recover if they did not that type of experience. In fellowship - Dudley D. __________________________________ Note from the moderator: There were actually three separate experiences that Bill W. had during the period when he was getting sober: ------------------------- (1) October 1934: When Ebby said to Bill, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" Bill W. says that the "scales fell ... from my eyes." (Big Book p. 12) Most Americans at that time read from the Bible regularly or heard it read from in church. They would have immediately recognized this as a reference to the Apostle Paul's conversion experience on the Road to Damascus in Acts 9:18. That means that Bill W. is telling us here, "this was my conversion experience." He became aware of "the real significance" of his awareness of the divine presence at Westminster Cathedral. Living in continual "God consciousness" or "awareness of the divine presence" was the way the most important Protestant preachers and theologians of the 1920's and 1930's described the life of those who were among the saved. Bill W. also noted (p. 10) that his beloved grandfather had pointed out that one could have the same sense of awe and wonder at the divine presence while looking up at the starry sky at night -- with the advantage that the preachers couldn't tell you how to interpret that experience! This understanding of what is meant by "God consciousness" is referred to many times in the Big Book. One of the two greatest Protestant theologians of that period, Rudolf Otto, talked about this kind of spiritual experience in his book "The Idea of the Holy," which went through printing after printing. The original German of the book also went through printing after printing: "Das Heilige: ueber das Irrationale in der Idee des gottlichen und sein Verhaeltnis zum Rationalen." This could be useful to German AA members trying to understand what the English version of the Big Book means by the words "spiritual" and "spiritual experience," because the original German of Otto's book explains it in terms that are part of the German cultural heritage. ------------------------- (2) Shortly afterwards, Bill W. made a visit to the rescue mission run by Father Sam Shoemaker's Calvary Church, drunk out of his mind ("Pass It On, pp. 116-119). He disrupted the meeting, and at one point stood up and gave a long, confused drunken speech. No one afterward could quite remember what he had said, except that it was disruptive and embarrassing. But Ebby thought that he remembered that during Bill's speech, he had "given his life to God." So there are some people in AA who count that as a conversion experience. He was totally drunk however, and continued to drink for another two or three days, so I do not in fact know any pastor in the evangelical tradition who would regard anything said by an obnoxious and disruptive drunk who broke into a revival meeting, and started ranting, as a genuine conversion. (3) The ecstatic vision of the great white light which Bill had in Towns Hospital in December 1934, where he felt as though he was standing on a mighty mountain peak where the wind of the spirit blew (see "Pass It On, p. 121, and "AA Comes of Age, p. 63). Bill W. said nothing about the divine light in his account in the Big Book (p. 14). But he did say that this happened when he realized that "I must turn in all things to the Father of Light who presides over us all," where the light motif occurs (it is a reference to the epistle of James 1:17). ------------------------- The first of these experiences was the one that the Big Book and early AA people in general stressed as the primary meaning of "spiritual experience" or "spiritual awareness." It might come slowly instead of quickly, but it meant learning to practice the presence of God in our everyday lives at all times, being aware of his love and compassion and willingness to help, and letting that guide all our daily decisions. And it meant learning to respect and appreciate the holy and sacred dimension of reality in all the ways in which it was revealed to us: in church and synagogue and mosque and temple, in the the spirit of the tables (which is the Holy Spirit at work), and in our wonder and awe at the glories of nature: the sky, the trees, the scent of Spring flowers, the sound of birds. The Song of the Seraphim in Isaiah 6:3 is repeated in countless Jewish and Christian liturgies: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory." The Cherubic Anthem which is the centerpiece of the Eastern Orthodox liturgy makes it clear that our primary duty as human beings down here on earth in this material realm, is to join in with the holy angels in singing this uncreasing hymn. The Potawatomi Indian tribe which lives in my part of the U.S. does not believe in a personal God, but they too sing, to the four corners of the compass, a hymn to the Manitou, the holiness and glory of the sacred presence which shines forth in all the world of nature. Those who sing this hymn, in any of its forms, and know what they are singing to, have understood the primary meaning of "spiritual experience" and "spiritual awakening" in the twelve step program. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3662. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant September dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/1/2006 11:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Significant September Dates in A.A. History Sept 1930 - Bill wrote 4th (last) promise in family Bible to quit drinking. Sept 1939 - group started by Earl T in Chicago. Sept 1940 - AA group started in Toledo by Duke P and others. Sept 1940 - Journal of Nervous and Mental Diseases gives Big Book unfavorable review. Sept 1946 - Bill and Dr. Bob both publicly endorsed National Committee Education Alcoholism founded by Marty M. Sept 1946 - 1st A.A. group in Mexico. Sept 1948 - Bob writes article for Grapevine on AA "Fundamentals - In Retrospect". Sept 1949 - 1st issue of Grapevine published in "pocketbook" size. Sept 1, 1939 - 1st AA group founded in Chicago. Sept 11, 2001 - 30 Vesey St, New York. Location of AA's first office is destroyed during the World Trade Center attack. Sept 12, 1942 - U.S. Assist. Surgeon General Kolb speaks at dinner for Bill and Dr Bob. Sept 13, 1937 - Florence R, 1st female in AA in NY. Sept 13, 1941 - WHJP in Jacksonville, FL airs Spotlight on AA. Sept 17, 1954 - Bill D, AA #3 dies. Sept 18, 1947 - Dallas Central Office opens its doors. Sept 19, 1965 - The Saturday Evening Post publishes article "Alcoholics Can Be Cured - Despite AA" Sept 19, 1975 - Jack Alexander, author of original Saturday Evening Post article, dies. Sept 21, 1938 - Bill W and Hank P form Works Publishing Co. Sept 24, 1940 - Bill 12th steps Bobbie V, who later replaced Ruth Hock as his secretary in NY. Sept 30, 1939 - article in Liberty magazine, "Alcoholics and God" by Morris Markey. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3663. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Richard Peabody died drunk? Documentation? From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/2/2006 10:29:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" wrote: > > Hi Mel > > Re the paper below > > EARLY ALCOHOLISM TREATMENT: THE EMMANUEL MOVEMENT and RICHARD PEABODY > Katherine McCarthy, Ph.D. > Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Vol.45, No.1, 1984. > > http://www.aabibliography.com/historyofaa/reco1.htm > I have no specific information about Peabody, but a couple of remarks on the context. McCarthy's article says that: " Samuel Crocker, > who had once shared an office with Peabody, told Faye R. that he was > intoxicated at the time of his death. And also that . Wister quoted Peabody's > second wife to the effect that he died of pneumonia. Irving Fisher, a prominent advocate of prohibition, devoted much of his book Prohibition At Its Worst (written 1926, I believe, and revised later) to debates about the medical value of alcohol. The issues then were very different from the present-day claims about alcohol's value. For example, a physician by the name of Samuel Lambert made the claim, based on what appeared to be good evidence, that pneumonia patients had a lower mortality rate when given alcohol. In the days before antibiotics, the importance of that fact, if it was a fact, would have been enormous. I very much doubt that there was anything to the claim, and Irving Fisher certainly presented enough evidence to refute it. Lambert, however, spoke before a congressional committee on the matter. At issue was the limit to the amount of alcohol that could be prescribed, at that time about a fifth per patient per ten days. Lambert thought it should be increased. Samuel Lambert's brother was Alexander Lambert (I wonder if they ever got together over holidays?), medical director of Town's hospital. Dr. Alexander Lambert was a prominent advocate of Prohibition. During the time Irving Fisher wrote about their dispute, Fisher's nephew Rowland Hazard III was a patient of Dr. Samuel Lambert, among other doctors (Rhode Island Historical Society papers). In that family, the issue was indeed discussed but apparently no one's mind was changed by the discussion. So, I'm wondering if there is necessarily any incompatibility between the story that Peabody died of pneumonia and the story that he was drinking at the time? Perhaps legitimate medical authority encouraged him to make an exception to his normal rule against alcohol consumption, because of pneumonia, another illness, or even old age? Rightly or wrongly. > > Later in the paper: > > "Although Peabody's method was widely practiced for about two decades, > little is known of its overall therapeutic success, and an accurate > guess is impossible at this date. Marty Mann concluded that Peabody > and his therapists "accomplished a heroic work during the 1930's, when > little else was being done for alcoholics" If Marty Mann really believed that no one else was doing anything for alcoholics in the 1930's, it could be because what they were doing failed to help her. This should probably not be taken too literally. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3664. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Identifying Big Book first printing From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2006 7:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Some meetings in the Cleveland/Akron area still use "experience" rather than "awakening". And some groups use "a result" instead of "the result" . . . Jon Markle 9/9/82 Raleigh On Aug 28, 2006, at 8:30 PM, DudleyDobinson@aol.com wrote: > Hi Bob > > Thanks for your insight on the differences between > the first and later printings of the Big Book. > I have probably One of the few copies of "Big Red" > in Ireland and will almost certainly donate it some > time in the near future. When and to whom is my > current dilemma. > > Perhaps the most important change made to the First > printing which you did not mention was the change > in the Twelfth step from "experience" to "awakening" > and the addition of an appendix on the subject added > in the Second printing. > > I believe it was pointed out to Bill W. that he > had his spiritual experience before the steps were > written. Also some members thought they could not > recover if they did not that type of experience. > > In fellowship - Dudley D. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3665. . . . . . . . . . . . First World Conference transcripts From: abigapple2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2006 1:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I know that when the Traditions were accepted by the fellowship, Bill had one speaker talk about two traditions in each talk. I was wondering if anyone might know how to find transcripts or tapes of those talks. Thank you very much. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3666. . . . . . . . . . . . "The AA Way Of Life/As Bill Sees It" From: pnwnatives . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/30/2006 11:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am trying to find out when the first printing of "As Bill Sees It" was first printed. I would also be interested in any information that is available regarding the change in names. Was the first printing of "As Bill Sees It" a first printing or was it carried on from "The AA Way Of LIfe"? Any information would be appreciated. Bob W _______________________ From the moderator: Bob, If you do a search through the past Messages, there are three messages that seem to be relevant to answering part of your question. Message 2519 1967 - The AA Way of Life (retitled in 1975 to As Bill Sees It) was published. Message 589 Janet G. - she and Bill, edited A.A. Way Life, became As Bill Sees It (G 27) (P 360) Message 164 Grapevine: Weren't there a number of projects Bill wanted to get to in the years following Dr. Bob's death? Nell Wing: In 1954, Bill had the idea of creating a writing and research team to help him with, among other things, a major history of AA. Bill's depression was still with him and he knew that if he could give a lot of time to doing something specific and keep at it, that would help the depression. He wanted to do a good, thorough history and also put together a new edition of the Big Book. The scope of the history project proved to be too much, though, and had to be scaled back. Nevertheless, the result was AA Comes of Age. The new edition of the Big Book finally did get completed, and Bill was also eager to do a summing up of what he had learned, the wisdom that had come up through the Fellowship. He had a very precise idea of the kind of book he wanted to write, but he wasn't able to do it. In the end, what took its place was As Bill Sees It - not a bad substitute! _______________________ As far as I know, there has been no discussion however of why the title was changed from "The AA Way of Life" to "As Bill Sees It." Can any of the members of this group help us out here? Glenn C., Moderator AAHistoryLovers IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3667. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: History of closed and open discussion meetings From: David G. . . . . . . . . . . . . 8/29/2006 1:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear Jerry and all, On pages 237 and 238, Chapter XVIII; The wives' role in early A.A.; and also a quote from page 242, Chapter XIX; Minorities within A.A. gain acceptance; from the book, "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers: ...pg 237--In Akron in the very early days, alcoholics had almost no say. Their wives got them to the meetings, which were, in turn, run by Oxford Groupers. The men chafed a bit, but allowed it to go on. When the A.A.'s did break away from the O.G., their wives very likely had a lot to do with the move, as I we have seen. Then, especially as single men and women alcoholics began coming into the program, there was friction with the wives. (inserted by Dave-see quote from page 242, below) This resulted in "closed meetings" for alcoholics only, as well as "open meetings" at which the nonalcoholic wives were not allowed to speak, Later, the situation was to balance out, with the establishment of such compromises as "open discussion meetings," in which wives and other nonmembers, were invited to participate. pg 238 "When they had this AI-Anon and Alateen, I thought it was a wonderful idea," said Elgie. Al-Anon Family Groups took its present form in 1951, though "family groups" composed of A.A. members' relatives had been developing over the preceding years! It soon became a source of help for wives and others close to drinking alcoholics, as well as to those sober in A.A. The special needs of alcoholics' teenage children were answered in 1957 by the formation of Alateen, a part of AI-Anon.! Both use the A.A. program with only slight adaptation, but are entirely separate from A.A. I think now what a relief it would have been if I could have gone in a program that would have kept me occupied," Elgie said. "That's why I got involved. I wanted to help. It wasn't that common. There were two or three of us who did it. "Dr. Bob said that when you come into A.A. and your husband has been drinking, you are at the point where you are as crazy as he is," said Elgie, "and it is going to take you a long time to look at things normally. "He also said that the man won't stay sober if the wife, isn't with him, And the families won't get back together unless everybody works at it.. That was the way he put it. Nothing fancy. Just practical psychology." also from page 242 of the same book: "the thing that bothered him {inserted by Dave, (Dr. Bob)} was that most of the women came in with the label ‘nymphomaniac. Most of the wives would back away, and the men got leery because they were afraid they would get into some situation. So, in the beginning, the woman was looked on as trouble. Nobody wanted to handle it." I hope you find this helpful. Yours in service, Dave G. ___________________________________ Jerry wrote: CLOSED MEETINGS From "jerry" (jerrytwotord at hotmail.com) Hello group Perhaps someone can help me here. All the reading I've done on our founders seems to point to the fact that our first meetings be they AA or Oxford Group meetings were family affairs. If this is so, just where did the "closed" meeting come in and for what purpose? Is there any documentation of this? Any help is appreciated. Jerry ______________________________ OPEN DISCUSSION MEETINGS From "abigapple2002" (abigapple2002 at yahoo.com) O.K., so I've heard a variety of opinions on whether or not we should have some meetings which are "open discussion meetings." I've also heard a variety of "facts" as to when and how they came about. I thought you all would be a little more reliable in this case as to when the first open discussion meeting came about, where and possibly even why. Thanks a lot. I've just passed three years, and really beginning to have a "thirst" for AA history. Thanks to all of you for being here and being willing to share what you've found. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3668. . . . . . . . . . . . If you want to keep it... From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2006 5:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill wrote it first. "You have to give it away..." The phrase "you have to give it away to keep it" is a short version of the message in the story about the prospector on pages 128-129 in the Big Book: the gold mine he has found "will pay dividends only if he ... insists on giving away the entire product." (Big Book pp. 128-129) "Like a gaunt prospector, belt drawn in over the last ounce of food, our pick struck gold. Joy at our release from a lifetime of frustration knew no bounds. Father feels he has struck something better than gold. For a time he may try to hug the new treasure to himself. He may not see at once that he has barely scratched a limitless lode which will pay dividends only if he mines it for the rest of his life and insists on giving away the entire product." In God's love and service, Cliff Bishop Home - (214) 350-1190 Cell - (214) 532-5371 FAX - (214) 350-1190 CBBB164@aol.com www.ppgaadallas.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3669. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "The AA Way Of Life/As Bill Sees It" From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2006 9:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 10:00 8/30/2006 , pnwnatives wrote: >I am trying to find out when the first printing of >"As Bill Sees It" was first printed. > >I would also be interested in any information that >is available regarding the change in names. Was the >first printing of "As Bill Sees It" a first printing >or was it carried on from "The AA Way Of LIfe"? > >Any information would be appreciated. > >Bob W I suppose it depends on how you define your terms. The book had titles in five places: The front of the dust jacket; The spine of the dust jacket; The front board of the book; The spine of the book, and; The half-title page. The first printing that has "As Bill Sees It" in all five places is the Seventh Printing 1976. The Sixth Printing 1975 has "As Bill Sees It," as well as "The A.A. Way of Life" on the front of the dust jacket and ABSI on the spine of the DJ, but has AAWoL in the other three locations. I have been told that the first time "As Bill Sees It" appeared was on the cover of the Fourth Printing 1972. I do not have a copy of the Third, but it is indeed on the DJ of the Fourth. The current printings still have "The A.A. Way of Life" on the title page. The very first printing of the volume was in 1967. I hope this helps. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3670. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "The AA Way Of Life/As Bill Sees It" From: The Wilsons . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2006 12:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tom, Thanks for the insight. I hadn't thought to much about what I was asking I guess. I found out from GSO that the idea of changing it started to be discussed in February of 1970. In June of 1970 several names (A. A. Day by Day, A. A. For Today, 331 Thoughts From Bill or 500 Thoughts From Bill, A Reader By Bill, As Bill Says, Bills Reader, Inspiration From Bill and Bill Writes On The A. A. Way Of Life). It was decided that the new title should be "Day By Day By Bill" and to keep "The A. A. Way Of Life" as a sub title. In the 1970 fall literature catalog, the book is titled "As Bill Sees It". Our district has a copy of the third printing that is signed by several A. A. members from Seattle Washington. The remarks are directed towards congratulating the the member with suggesting the name that was selected. This why I was interested in finding out more about the name change. Bob Wilson Port Orchard WA Tom Hickcox wrote: > At 10:00 8/30/2006 , pnwnatives wrote: > > >> I am trying to find out when the first printing of >> "As Bill Sees It" was first printed. >> >> I would also be interested in any information that >> is available regarding the change in names. Was the >> first printing of "As Bill Sees It" a first printing >> or was it carried on from "The AA Way Of LIfe"? >> >> Any information would be appreciated. >> >> Bob Wilson > > I suppose it depends on how you define your terms. > > The book had titles in five places: The front of the dust jacket; > The spine of the dust jacket; The front board of the book; The spine > of the book, and; The half-title page. > > The first printing that has "As Bill Sees It" in all five places is > the Seventh Printing 1976. > > The Sixth Printing 1975 has "As Bill Sees It," as well as "The A.A. > Way of Life" on the front of the dust jacket and ABSI on the spine of > the DJ, but has AAWoL in the other three locations. > > I have been told that the first time "As Bill Sees It" appeared was on > the cover of the Fourth Printing 1972. I do not have a copy of the > Third, but it is indeed on the DJ of the Fourth. > > The current printings still have "The A.A. Way of Life" on the title > page. > > The very first printing of the volume was in 1967. > > I hope this helps. > > Tommy H in Baton Rouge > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3671. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: "The AA Way Of Life/As Bill Sees It" From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2006 10:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Bob The "AA Way of Life" was first published in 1967. Janet G assisted with editing (reference "AA Comes of Age" pg x, and "Pass It On" pg 360). The book had not yet been distributed as of the month of the Conference (April) so my assumption is that it likely started being distributed mid-1967. It was Bill's 6th and last book. The final report of the 1967 General Service Conference reported the following: The Literature Committee of the General Service Conference took the following actions: Reported that 'The A.A. Way of Life' is anticipated with great interest in all areas; noted enthusiastic reception of comic-book pamphlet, "What Happened to Joe"; voiced high hopes for "Newcomers Meeting Kit." and expressed interest in upcoming revisions of "A.A. For the Woman," "Young People in A.A." and "Questions and Answers on Sponsorship." The General Service Board Policy Committee also reported the "Passage of a resolution commending Janet G. and Bill W. for their work in compiling the new book, "A.A. Way of Life." Technically, the book was Conference-approved in 1952. A special trustees committee on literature reported to the 1952 Conference on recommendations for literature to be retained and new literature that would be needed. Bill W also reported on the many literature projects that he was engaged in. One of Bill's projects was described as "A book on the application of AA philosophy to the total problem of living." The trustee's recommendations and Bill's projects were approved by the Conference unanimously. By approving literature to be retained, the 1952 Conference retroactively approved the Big Book and several existing pamphlets which included the long form of the Traditions. "Pass It On" (pg 360) states that the title "AA Way of Life" was changed to "As Bill Sees It" in 1975. This is not correct. The final report of the 1971 General Service Conference started using the title "As Bill Sees It (AA Way of Life)." The parenthetical reference to "AA Way of Life" was dropped in the 1972 Conference report. There is no specific Conference advisory action that authorized the title change to the book. The 1970 Conference report still referenced the title as "The AA Way of Life." My assumption is that the trustees changed the title in 1971 as a memorial to Bill W (who passed away on January 23, 1971). It was also one of the books that Bill and Lois received royalty payments on (the others were the Big Book, the 12and12 and "AA Comes of Age"). The royalties were based on the English language versions of the books sold. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pnwnatives Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:00 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "The AA Way Of Life/As Bill Sees It" I am trying to find out when the first printing of "As Bill Sees It" was first printed. I would also be interested in any information that is available regarding the change in names. Was the first printing of "As Bill Sees It" a first printing or was it carried on from "The AA Way Of LIfe"? Any information would be appreciated. Bob W _______________________ From the moderator: Bob, If you do a search through the past Messages, there are three messages that seem to be relevant to answering part of your question. Message 2519 1967 - The AA Way of Life (retitled in 1975 to As Bill Sees It) was published. Message 589 Janet G. - she and Bill, edited A.A. Way Life, became As Bill Sees It (G 27) (P 360) Message 164 Grapevine: Weren't there a number of projects Bill wanted to get to in the years following Dr. Bob's death? Nell Wing: In 1954, Bill had the idea of creating a writing and research team to help him with, among other things, a major history of AA. Bill's depression was still with him and he knew that if he could give a lot of time to doing something specific and keep at it, that would help the depression. He wanted to do a good, thorough history and also put together a new edition of the Big Book. The scope of the history project proved to be too much, though, and had to be scaled back. Nevertheless, the result was AA Comes of Age. The new edition of the Big Book finally did get completed, and Bill was also eager to do a summing up of what he had learned, the wisdom that had come up through the Fellowship. He had a very precise idea of the kind of book he wanted to write, but he wasn't able to do it. In the end, what took its place was As Bill Sees It - not a bad substitute! _______________________ As far as I know, there has been no discussion however of why the title was changed from "The AA Way of Life" to "As Bill Sees It." Can any of the members of this group help us out here? Glenn C., Moderator AAHistoryLovers Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3672. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First World Conference transcripts From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/3/2006 11:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Yeah, I would really love a copy of that transcript too. If anyone wants a copy of the two CD set of the introduction of the 12 Traditions at the 1st International Conference of AA in Cleveland OH in 1950 (includes commentary from founding AA members), I have then for $14 plus $2 shipping. I specialized in recordings of early AA members and have over 200 talks by people who came in to AA in the 1930s and 1940s. Go with God. Just Love, Barefoot Bill -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of abigapple2002 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 1:16 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First World Conference transcripts I know that when the Traditions were accepted by the fellowship, Bill had one speaker talk about two traditions in each talk. I was wondering if anyone might know how to find transcripts or tapes of those talks. Thank you very much. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3673. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Bulletin #1 (11/14/40) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2006 9:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THE ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS - ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Box 658, Church Street Annex, New York City #1, AA BULLETIN, 11/14/40 We wish to thank our many friends and correspondents all over the country for their cooperation in keeping the national headquarters informed of developments in the various groups. It is through such a central exchange that vital information and contact points can be brought to the attention of those who seek the solution to alcoholism which means so much to us. This bulletin is an effort to develop a mutual idea exchange sheet to establish a closer feeling of friendship between A.A. groups from the east coast to the west, and we hope it will prevent secession from the A.A. ranks of our San Francisco group who threatened to call themselves "Dipsomaniacs Incognito" unless they heard from us more frequently. A bulletin has been contemplated for some time but delayed due to lack of sufficient personnel and office facilities. We now have at least the equipment and hope to be able to make this bulletin a periodic spree (not alcoholic). This office has in the last year handled over 2000 inquiries answering each by personal letter. In addition, correspondence is maintained with about 50 centers where A.A. work is in operation, varying from the solitary efforts of single isolated A.A. members to groups of 150. In view of the fact that in April 1939 there were only about 100 A.A. members, and the fact that there is now a total of approximately 1400, your efforts and ours have been exceptionally worth while. Continued A.A. activity will mean a great deal not only to each of us as individuals, but also to the many who are still unaware of the fact that there is an answer to the alcoholic problem which is practicable on a large scale. Our correspondence reaches not only the four corners of the U.S. but also touches Alaska, Africa, England, France and Australia. Although nothing of consequence has developed as yet in these distant places, nevertheless it is indicative of the widespread interest in Alcoholics Anonymous, of the far reaching results already obtained, and the possibilities for the future. For the general information of all A.A. members, we list below those cities where there are isolated A.A. members who have recovered either through the book alone or through brief contact with established centers. Cohoes, N.Y. Buffalo, N.Y. Denver, Colorado Shelby, North Carolina Greensboro, North Carolina Aiken, South Carolina Bellingham, Washington Bismarck, North Dakota Burlington, Vermont Bennington, Vermont Norfolk, Virginia Kansas City, Missouri St. Louis, Missouri Knoxville, Tennessee Eau Clare, Wisconsin Phoenix, Arizona There are several "working" A.A. members in each of the following cities where meetings are in a get together stage. Pittsburgh, PA. Boston, Mass. Wallingford, Vermont San Diego, California Indianapolis, Ind. And following is a list of communities where A.A. is well established and weekly meetings are held: New York City, N.Y. South Orange, N.J. Washington, D.C. Richmond, VA. Detroit, Michigan Jackson, Michigan Coldwater, Michigan Chicago, Illinois Houston, Texas Los Angeles, Calif. San Francisco, Calif. Evansville, Indiana Little Rock, Arkansas Philadelphia, PA. Baltimore, MD. Waunakee, Wisconsin Greenwich, Conn. Cleveland, Ohio Akron, Ohio Toledo, Ohio Dayton, Ohio Youngstown, Ohio The secretary or correspondent of each group has the name and address of at least one member in each of the established groups for the use of traveling or visiting members. However, at the request of many of these groups may we ask that the New York office be used as a clearing house for all correspondence since but few local groups are equipped to handle the correspondence now coming to them from so many different directions. We shall gladly give full particulars about any of the listed communities upon request. We all know that the A.A. solution really works if followed with patience, honesty and sincerity so we sympathize with the new prospect who said he certainly DID want to stop drinking but after listening a few minutes to our A.A. story said "Oh that!! - I tried it for two weeks and it doesn't work". We shall appreciate receiving ideas, suggestions, criticisms, etc. of general interest for the purpose of this bulletin is to relate the many A.A. groups in a friendly spirit. So best regards to all and let us hear from you at any and all times. Ruth Hock (signed) Secretary P.S. Since it is not possible at the present time for us to furnish enough copies for distribution to every A.A. member, perhaps you will feel it advisable to read this copy aloud at a meeting. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3674. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Richard Peabody died drunk? Documentation? From: michael oates . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2006 7:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is the purpose of the question of whteher Peabody died drunk to prove only AA founders died sober, what is the point, because earlier on the site it has been documented that not many of the first 100 the Big Book refers to made it to their deaths sober, i thought this was an intellectual site not a shrill for AA. If the purpose is anything other than AA History then discontinue me. ______________________________ Note from the moderator: Hi, I think you're being a little unfair. In commenting on the way Peabody's book influenced Bill Wilson, someone commented that the Peabody method did not in fact work very well (something with which everyone agrees), and went on to say that Peabody himself in fact died drunk. The spirit of Peabody's book is basically that of "buck yourself up, and quit acting like a spoiled child, and learn how to be a REAL MAN, and start exercising some control over your drinking, and start using some will power like REAL MEN do, and quit being such a whimpering little sissy." It was the spirit of Jack London novels and some of the other "be a REAL RUGGED HE MAN and stop being molly coddled by your over protective Mommy" popular American literature and pop psychology of that period. During the 1920's and 30's, in popular American literature, there was a fad for blaming men's mothers for everything that was wrong with them after they grew up. My father certainly read the Jack London novels and the Zane Grey westerns and all that, and believed all of that! (I was born in 1939, so you can place this in history.) Go see the old Hollywood cowboy movies of that time, to understand that popular fad better, and read some of the cheap pulp literature of that period. Or read the little piece by the founder of AA in northern Indiana, Kenneth G. Merrill, "Drunks Are a Mess" ( http://hindsfoot.org/nsbend2.html ). Most of what he says is very good, and has things we can learn from today. In fact it is one of the best short introductions to the psychological aspects of the AA program ever written. But even Ken Merrill was a man of his times, and he slips in one paragraph that shows the influence of the "rugged he man" fad on the American psyche at that period: "But of all other causes put together, none equals the sinister potency, in creating future alcoholics, of a harsh, cruel, disciplinarian type of father, coupled with an over-soft, over-affectionate, over-possessive mother. A mom who conspires with sonny to evade papa's wrath, who carries her protectiveness into fields beyond the home, and attempts ceaselessly, and usually successfully, to insulate the child from the normal, wholesome buffets of ordinary childhood experience. It becomes a hideous circle. The more impossible rules the father lays down for the child to follow, the more failures accumulate, the more bitter the father's persecution, the more maudlin and sentimental the mother's attempts to protect and compensate. Between them, believe me they do a job." Rich Dubiel's book on the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club (which is very important for AA history) says that Peabody renounced some of the principles which the EM and the JC were using (because the EM and JC called upon the power of God's grace to help us do what we could never do alone), and that this was what made Peabody's system so weak and ineffective in practice. The early AA people were wiser, Rich says, and picked up the good points of the EM and JC system, and insisted that we had to call upon God's grace for help, and ignored Peabody's attempt to change that vital part of the EM and JC system ( http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html and http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html ). It's fair game to talk about whether alcoholics involved in AA history (including those who were not AA members, but with whom we were in contact, like Ebby Thacher and Rowland Hazard, and the people involved in the Jacoby Club, which heavily influenced early Boston AA) were able to find a solution to their drinking problem, either IN or OUT of AA. It's fair game to ask how well early AA worked in fact, and also how well some of the other systems worked in fact (like the Oxford Group, the Emmanuel Movement and Jacoby Club, and Peabody's method) to see why the early AA people decided to discard some of the principles involved in those other groups. Otherwise, we would NOT be honest historians, and would in fact be running a shill for AA. At that point, someone else wrote in and said, don't say things like that about Peabody if you can't prove it, otherwise it's the worst kind of malicious gossip mongering. And the person who originally wrote that, who is an honest historian, had to admit that he was stating something that he did not know for a one hundred per cent guaranteed fact, although there was some significant supporting evidence. So our AA historians have been checking that question out, simply to establish what the facts were here. And the answer at this point seems to be that we cannot know all of the facts surrounding Peabody's last days for sure, and that there may in fact have even been ameliorating circumstances (medical doctors sometimes prescribed small amounts of alcohol for heart patients in that period of history, as they did for my grandfather, who was not an alcoholic, during his last years, which was during the 1950's). So it is unfortunate that we cannot necessarily come up with a one hundred percent guaranteed answer to this particular question, but that is the nature of all real historical research. Not all historical questions can be answered with one hundred percent certainty. A good professional historian has to know, not only what we DO know for a fact, but what we do NOT know for an absolute fact. Nevertheless, we CAN say that we do not have much (if any) reliable data supporting the assertion that the Peabody method was a very workable method of dealing with alcoholism. And we can say that, in spite of the popularity of his book among the general public at that time, it wasn't going to be a real winner when it came to effectively dealing with the problem of alcoholism in the United States (where it was then, and still is, the third leading cause of death). That's why nobody tries to use the Peabody method any more. My own very rough observations are that, out of all the alcoholics whom I have known who obtained a five year survival rate (five years of unbroken sobriety), around 1% did that by will power alone (essentially the Peabody method), around 1% did that by going to a conservative evangelical church and reading the Bible and praying to Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and the other 98% get sober in AA. More alcoholics by far get sober in AA than by any other way, but I know of no sensible observer (including all of the people who regularly contribute to this web group) who would deny that the other two methods also sometimes work. At the present stage of research, it seems clear that Peabody's book, in spite of the fact that it was very widely read and very popular for a while, stopped being read and used because it simply didn't work very well, if at all. And the evidence surrounding Peabody's drinking during his own last years gives us at least no unambiguous evidence that the system worked for him either. On the basic issue, the fact is that almost nothing in the AA program was totally invented by the early AA people themselves. Almost everything in the AA program originally came from somewhere else, and had been said by somebody else before. So a decent history of early AA will be forced to write about the earlier attempts to deal with alcoholism in the United States from which the early AA people learned either (a) good ideas which they could borrow or (b) bad ideas which they needed to leave out of their new AA program if they wanted it to be as successful as possible. So we have no choice, when writing a full account of early AA history, but to write at least a little about things like the Oxford Group; the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club; Rowland Hazard and Carl Jung; Peabody's book; neo-Freudian psychiatrists like Adler; representatives of the New Thought movement like Emmet Fox and James Allen ( http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html ); and other ideas and movements of the early twentieth century. These become of interest to AA historians when it is clear that they had an effect on the way early AA people thought and believed. But those members of the group who are not interested in these things, and who want to focus solely on working out the dates and facts surrounding the lives of early AA members and early AA publications, should just delete these messages about the background to early AA. That's the advantage of being in a web group, as opposed to having to sit through a long conference, when one of the speakers spends a half hour ranting about something you aren't the slightest bit interested in (and anyway, you don't LIKE the jerk, he's obnoxious). Hit the delete button! But there is NO WAY that anyone could post messages for a group of over 1400 people all around the world, and guarantee that each individual member will NEVER see a message posted that he or she finds uninteresting (grin). Heck, I've seen strings of messages posted on this web site on certain occasions on things that I personally thought were unbelievably pedantic and boring, but some of the other members of the group found that topic fascinating, and since they are members of the group in good standing, they have their rights too. In the list of topics at the beginning of my heavily used and well worn copy of "As Bill Sees It: The A.A. Way of Life ... selected writings of A.A.'s cofounder" (23rd printing, 1989) there is a long list of reading on the topic of "tolerance" for other members of the program, warts and all (grin). Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3675. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant September dates in A.A. History From: Bristol Fashion . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 2:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can you fit the following date in somewhere? Sept 1971 First European Convention, Bristol, England Yours Sally Cousins Archivist ______________________________ Note from the moderator: Yes, please, AA is a movement for the whole world. The annual Bristol Convention has become the central gathering place for AA historians and archivists, not just in the British Isles (England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales) but drawing many participants from the continent of Europe. It is a really first-rate gathering. We have AAHistoryLovers members from a number of European countries including Germany, France, Belgium, the Scandinavian countries, Finland, etc. Also many other parts of the world, including Mexico, India, Israel, Australia, New Zealand, and so on, all over the globe. Significant dates and historical figures and events from all over the world are welcome and heartily encouraged in this forum. We're all in this together, guys. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, USA) ______________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "chesbayman56" To: Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant September dates in A.A. History > Significant September Dates in A.A. History > Sept 1930 - Bill wrote 4th (last) promise in family Bible to quit > drinking. > Sept 1939 - group started by Earl T in Chicago. > Sept 1940 - AA group started in Toledo by Duke P and others. > Sept 1940 - Journal of Nervous and Mental Diseases gives Big Book > unfavorable review. > Sept 1946 - Bill and Dr. Bob both publicly endorsed National Committee > Education Alcoholism founded by Marty M. > Sept 1946 - 1st A.A. group in Mexico. > Sept 1948 - Bob writes article for Grapevine on AA "Fundamentals - > In Retrospect". > Sept 1949 - 1st issue of Grapevine published in "pocketbook" size. > Sept 1, 1939 - 1st AA group founded in Chicago. > Sept 11, 2001 - 30 Vesey St, New York. Location of AA's first office > is destroyed during the World Trade Center attack. > Sept 12, 1942 - U.S. Assist. Surgeon General Kolb speaks at dinner > for Bill and Dr Bob. > Sept 13, 1937 - Florence R, 1st female in AA in NY. > Sept 13, 1941 - WHJP in Jacksonville, FL airs Spotlight on AA. > Sept 17, 1954 - Bill D, AA #3 dies. > Sept 18, 1947 - Dallas Central Office opens its doors. > Sept 19, 1965 - The Saturday Evening Post publishes > article "Alcoholics Can Be Cured - Despite AA" > Sept 19, 1975 - Jack Alexander, author of original Saturday Evening > Post article, dies. > Sept 21, 1938 - Bill W and Hank P form Works Publishing Co. > Sept 24, 1940 - Bill 12th steps Bobbie V, who later replaced Ruth > Hock as his secretary in NY. > Sept 30, 1939 - article in Liberty magazine, "Alcoholics and God" > by Morris Markey. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3676. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: First World Conference transcripts From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2006 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi First, a little bit of AA trivia: the 1950 event in Cleveland, OH at which the Traditions were approved was called an "International Conference." From the 2nd one on in 1955 (in St Louis, MO) they started getting called an "International Convention" (probably to not confuse them with the General Service Conference). A recap of the 1950 Cleveland, OH proceedings is in a September 1950 Grapevine article by Bill W titled "We Come of Age." The "Language of the Heart" (pgs 102-121) gives the title of the article as "We Came of Age." I've been using the erroneous title of the article for some time. A full transcription of the article by Fiona Dodd (who specifies the correct title) can be found in AAHL message #3595. An extract: "Several thousand of us crowded into the Cleveland Music Hall for the Tradition meeting, which was thought by most AAs to be the high point of our Conference. Six old-time stalwarts, coming from places far flung as Boston and San Diego, beautifully reviewed the years of AA experience which had led to the writing of our Tradition." Bill was then asked to sum up the Traditions. He did not recite either the short or long form. He paraphrased a version which is an amalgam of both forms: "That, touching all matters affecting AA unity, our common welfare should come first; that AA has no human authority - only God as he may speak in our Group Conscience; that our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern; that any alcoholic may become an AA member if he says so - we exclude no one; that every AA Group may manage its own affairs as it likes, provided surrounding groups are not harmed thereby; that we AAs have but a single aim, the carrying of our message to the alcoholic who still suffers; that in consequence we cannot finance, endorse or otherwise lend the name 'Alcoholics Anonymous' to any other enterprise, however worthy; that AA, as such, ought to remain poor, lest problems of property, management and money divert us from our sole aim; that we ought to be self-supporting, gladly paying our small expenses ourselves; that AA should remain forever non-professional, ordinary 12th Step work never to be paid for; that, as a Fellowship, we should never be organized but may nevertheless create responsible Service Boards or Committees to insure us better propagation and sponsorship and that these agencies may engage fulltime workers for special tasks; that our public relations ought to proceed upon the principle of attraction rather than promotion, it being better to let our friends recommend us; that personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and pictures ought to be strictly maintained as our best protection, against the temptations of power or personal ambition; and finally, that anonymity before the general public is the spiritual key to all our Traditions, ever reminding us we are always to place principles before personalities, that we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all." Following his recitation, Bill then asked if anyone objected. No one did. Bill then offered them for adoption and the attendees approved them unanimously by standing vote. The short form of the Traditions was first published in the November 1949 issue of the Grapevine. Many folks think the short form of the Traditions, as we know them today, were approved in 1950 at Cleveland but that's not true. Two wording changes were subsequently made to the November 1949 short form version: the term "primary spiritual aim" was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition Six, and the term "principles above personalities" was changed to "principles before personalities" in Tradition Twelve. The short form version we use today appears to have been Conference-approved with publication of the 12and12 in 1953. In 1952, Al-Anon Family Groups adopted and adapted the 1949 version for their version of the Traditions which still uses the earlier wording. Bill W's notation that "Six old-time stalwarts, coming from places far flung as Boston and San Diego, beautifully reviewed the years of AA experience which had led to the writing of our Tradition" does not explicitly mention that the 6 speakers reviewed 2 Traditions each. The impression I have (and it's only an impression) is that they spoke about the Traditions in general. If you have a source that confirms that they talked about 2 Traditions each, I'd be most grateful to find out what it is. In a May 1951 Grapevine article, T.C. from Winnipeg Canada noted that "You journey to the First International Conference at Cleveland, to hear the Traditions confirmed. You do not hear the Traditions confirmed. Six fine looking men, from varying walks of life, with varying ages of sobriety - interpreted. Bill summarized: The Traditions are lessons gained in experience, written physically by his hand, actually by the Group Conscience; he thanked God that he had never been allowed to assume a mantle of leadership or authority. Then you found that you had risen to your feet with every other person there, and were adding your little bit, to the thunderous and steady applause. No - you did not hear the Traditions confirmed. You felt them confirmed." Both Bill's talk and the talks by the 6 members were offered for a period of years on 38rpm LP records. The July 1951 Grapevine carries a brief article that states: There are recordings of two of the meetings of the First International Conference in Cleveland, 1950, on sale at your General Service Office. The Big Meeting (four sides of two Long Playing Records) Dr. Bob and Bill speaking, sells for $8.50. The Traditions Meeting (four sides of two LP records) with Bill and six other speakers, sells for $7.00. Both meetings ordered together are $15.00. I'm unable to determine if those LPs ever found their way on to audiotapes or are available over the internet on the many web sites that make historic AA recordings available. If you find a source where the talks have been digitized, I'd also appreciate your letting AAHistoryLovers know about it. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of abigapple2002 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 12:16 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First World Conference transcripts I know that when the Traditions were accepted by the fellowship, Bill had one speaker talk about two traditions in each talk. I was wondering if anyone might know how to find transcripts or tapes of those talks. Thank you very much. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3677. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: How to identify 1st printing 1st edition Big Books From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/4/2006 4:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Bob First off, if the cover is red then it's a 1st printing, 1st edition Big Book. The covers of all other printings, except for the 4th printing, were in various shades of blue. Also on the title page, under the title "Alcoholics Anonymous" if the subtitle states "The story how one hundred ..." it's a 1st printing. On April, 1935 - 4,730 copies of the 1st edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous" were published at a selling price of $3.50 ($46 in today's dollars). The printer, Edward Blackwell, president of Cornwall Press, was told to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large, bulky volume became known as the "Big Book" and the name has stuck ever since. The idea behind the large size was to convince the alcoholic he was getting his money's worth. Ray C (whose Big Book story is "An Artist's Concept") designed the "circus color" dust jacket. The book had 8 roman and 400 Arabic numbered pages. The Doctor's Opinion started as page 1 and the basic text ended at page 174 not 164. The manuscript story of an Akron member titled "Ace Full - Seven - Eleven" was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too pleased with changes made to the first drafts of the Steps and text). 29 stories were included (10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1 from the west coast which was ghost written by Ruth Hock). There were a number of significant changes made to the 2nd printing of the 1st edition Big Book: In March 1941, in the 2nd printing, the wording of Step Twelve changed. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps." The story "Lone Endeavor" (of Pat C from CA, ghost written by Ruth Hock) was removed. Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Many members thought they had to have a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences developed slowly over time and were of the "educational variety." William James, by the way did not explicitly use the term "educational variety" in his 1902 book titled "The Varieties of Religious Experience - A Study In Human Nature." From what I can glean, the first batch or so of the 1st printing, 1st edition Big Books did not have a dust jacket. They were bound in a clear cellophane type wrap which was attached to the inside of the front and back covers with Scotch Tape. If your copy has tape residue marks on the inside of the covers it would be one of the earliest books off the printing press. The rarest of the rare versions of the 1st edition Big Book is reputedly the batch that has a green cover and tissue like paper from the 4th printing. It was the result of World war II rationing requirements. I've also been told by folks I consider expert in the matter that a 1st printing, 1st edition dust jacket in very good condition would command the same collector's price as the book itself. In 1956, the wording of Step Twelve changed again in the 2nd printing of the 2nd edition Big Book. The term "as the result of those steps" was changed back to the original term "as the result of these steps." I don't know who to attribute it to (it's likely from Barefoot Bill's web site) but info similar to that below can be found on the web for all 15 printings of the 1st edition. 1st Edition - 1st Printing Title states "One hundred men" 29 personal stories Cover is red, only printing in red. Story "Ace Full - Seven - Eleven" deleted. Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number. Arabic numbers start at "Doctor's Opinion". 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman). Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast. P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27. Published by Works Publishing Company. 1st Edition - 2nd Printing Title states "Two thousand men and women" 28 personal stories Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue. Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine. Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience p399. Jacket spine and front flap has print number. Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman) Added footnote "See Appendix II" p35, 38, 72. P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us. P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons. P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening. P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those. P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500. P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated. P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand." P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399. 1st Edition - 3rd Printing Title changed - "Six thousand men and women" Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16. Cover changed to light blue. Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16. P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us. P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men. P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years. P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years. P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears. P391, L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000. P392,L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters. P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold. P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43. P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25. P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to 1,000. P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000. P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally. Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3678. . . . . . . . . . . . Why no amends to family on page 76? From: Carl P. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 9:54:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Steps Eight and Nine, making amends: Big Book 4th edition pg 76 chapter "Into Action." "Probably there are still some misgivings. As we look over the list of business acquaintances and friends we have hurt, we feel diffident about going to some of them on a spiritual basis....." My home group has a question regarding the above paragraph and have asked for the AA History lovers' views and opinions. Why in this paragraph is there no mention made of making amends to members of our families whom we may have harmed? Many thanks Carl P Barking Big Book Study(The Way Out) _________________________________ From the moderator: for our members in other parts of the world, the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham is in England, located in the County of Greater London on the eastern side. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3679. . . . . . . . . . . . The first 27 AA groups From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 2:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The list of the first 27 AA groups in the world, as of November 14, 1940, is an important document for early AA history, giving us some idea of the directions in which early AA spread from its original foundation in Akron, Ohio, and in the greater New York City area. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - EAST COAST (including the greater New York City area, but also New England and the Old South): Connecticut: Greenwich Maryland: Baltimore Massachusetts: Boston New Jersey: South Orange New York City Philadelphia: Philadelphia Vermont: Wallingford Virginia: Richmond Washington, D.C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - UPPER MIDWEST (forming a kind of circle around the Great Lakes region): Illinois: Chicago Indiana: Evansville Indiana: Indianapolis Michigan: Coldwater Michigan: Detroit Michigan: Jackson Ohio: Akron Ohio: Cleveland Ohio: Dayton Ohio: Toledo Ohio: Youngstown Pennsylvania: Pittsburgh Wisconsin: Waunakee - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - SOUTHWEST: Texas: Houston Arkansas: Little Rock - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - WEST COAST: California: San Diego California: Los Angeles California: San Francisco - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Taken from the document in Message No. 3673 at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3673 sent in by Barefoot Bill L. THE ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Box 658, Church Street Annex, New York City #1, AA BULLETIN, 11/14/40 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3680. . . . . . . . . . . . Helen Worden, "New Hope for Old Soaks" From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 1:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have an article written by Helen Worden, "New Hope for Old Soaks". I would like to find out what magazine this was published in. It is 3 pages long and seems to be the size of a Time or Newsweek magazine but that might not be true. Name and date of magazine needed. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3681. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Helen Worden, "New Hope for Old Soaks" From: Jim B . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 4:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have an article written by Helen Worden, "New Hope for Old Soaks". Name and date of magazine needed. Published in Argosy Magazine, October 1944. The same article was published in Reader's Digest, November 1944 under the title "Maybe I can Do It too." Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3682. . . . . . . . . . . . National Archives Workshop: Sept. 14-17, 2006 From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 3:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 10th Annual National Archives Workshop September 14-17, 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana Because of the confusion arising over the cancellation of the national AA archives gathering in New Orleans in Fall 2005 (because of the devasting hurricane), I am posting a reminder that it WILL be held this year, in Baton Rouge, which is in a part of Louisiana that was not so heavily damaged by the hurricane. To: glennccc@sbcglobal.net From: "Area64tnarchives.org" (daggerrose at area64tnarchives.org) Subject: 10th Annual National Archives Workshop "Preserving Our Past For Our Future" September 14-17, 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana Co Chairs: Jimmy H. mailto:jhardingnola@cox.net (jhardingnola at cox.net) Bobby B. mailto:danieb@att.net (danieb at att.net) Workshops, Seminars, Speakers, Banquet Holiday Inn South 9940 Airline Hi-Way Baton Rouge 70816 Ph# (225) 924-7021 Fax (225) 924-9816 Mention N.A.W. by August 31, 2006 for $79.00 night rate. Registration $35.00 Banquet $29.00 Download Workshop Flyer here. http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/flyer06.pdf Download Hotel Registration here. http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/hotel.pdf Download Workshop Schedule here http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/NATIONAL%20ARCHIVES%20Schedule%20_ 2_.p\ df [10] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3683. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Richard Peabody died drunk? Documentation? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 6:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The notion that many of the first 100 AA members died died drunk is a myth sustained solely by anecdotal repetition. It's a variant of the myth that most of the members who had their stories printed in the Big Book died drunk and is the stuff of circuit speaker dramatics. Please reference AAHL message #2464 which attempts to refute the myth. The citations made regarding Peabody derive from a very well researched academic paper written by an historian for the Journal of Studies on Alcohol. She had no agenda or axe to grind. Asking whether someone died drunk or sober certainly seems to be relevant to the study and reporting of Alcoholics Anonymous history. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of michael oates Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 6:25 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Richard Peabody died drunk? Documentation? Is the purpose of the question of whteher Peabody died drunk to prove only AA founders died sober, what is the point, because earlier on the site it has been documented that not many of the first 100 the Big Book refers to made it to their deaths sober, i thought this was an intellectual site not a shrill for AA. If the purpose is anything other than AA History then discontinue me. ______________________________ Note from the moderator: Hi, I think you're being a little unfair. In commenting on the way Peabody's book influenced Bill Wilson, someone commented that the Peabody method did not in fact work very well (something with which everyone agrees), and went on to say that Peabody himself in fact died drunk. The spirit of Peabody's book is basically that of "buck yourself up, and quit acting like a spoiled child, and learn how to be a REAL MAN, and start exercising some control over your drinking, and start using some will power like REAL MEN do, and quit being such a whimpering little sissy." It was the spirit of Jack London novels and some of the other "be a REAL RUGGED HE MAN and stop being molly coddled by your over protective Mommy" popular American literature and pop psychology of that period. During the 1920's and 30's, in popular American literature, there was a fad for blaming men's mothers for everything that was wrong with them after they grew up. My father certainly read the Jack London novels and the Zane Grey westerns and all that, and believed all of that! (I was born in 1939, so you can place this in history.) Go see the old Hollywood cowboy movies of that time, to understand that popular fad better, and read some of the cheap pulp literature of that period. Or read the little piece by the founder of AA in northern Indiana, Kenneth G. Merrill, "Drunks Are a Mess" ( http://hindsfoot.org/nsbend2.html ). Most of what he says is very good, and has things we can learn from today. In fact it is one of the best short introductions to the psychological aspects of the AA program ever written. But even Ken Merrill was a man of his times, and he slips in one paragraph that shows the influence of the "rugged he man" fad on the American psyche at that period: "But of all other causes put together, none equals the sinister potency, in creating future alcoholics, of a harsh, cruel, disciplinarian type of father, coupled with an over-soft, over-affectionate, over-possessive mother. A mom who conspires with sonny to evade papa's wrath, who carries her protectiveness into fields beyond the home, and attempts ceaselessly, and usually successfully, to insulate the child from the normal, wholesome buffets of ordinary childhood experience. It becomes a hideous circle. The more impossible rules the father lays down for the child to follow, the more failures accumulate, the more bitter the father's persecution, the more maudlin and sentimental the mother's attempts to protect and compensate. Between them, believe me they do a job." Rich Dubiel's book on the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club (which is very important for AA history) says that Peabody renounced some of the principles which the EM and the JC were using (because the EM and JC called upon the power of God's grace to help us do what we could never do alone), and that this was what made Peabody's system so weak and ineffective in practice. The early AA people were wiser, Rich says, and picked up the good points of the EM and JC system, and insisted that we had to call upon God's grace for help, and ignored Peabody's attempt to change that vital part of the EM and JC system ( http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html and http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html ). It's fair game to talk about whether alcoholics involved in AA history (including those who were not AA members, but with whom we were in contact, like Ebby Thacher and Rowland Hazard, and the people involved in the Jacoby Club, which heavily influenced early Boston AA) were able to find a solution to their drinking problem, either IN or OUT of AA. It's fair game to ask how well early AA worked in fact, and also how well some of the other systems worked in fact (like the Oxford Group, the Emmanuel Movement and Jacoby Club, and Peabody's method) to see why the early AA people decided to discard some of the principles involved in those other groups. Otherwise, we would NOT be honest historians, and would in fact be running a shill for AA. At that point, someone else wrote in and said, don't say things like that about Peabody if you can't prove it, otherwise it's the worst kind of malicious gossip mongering. And the person who originally wrote that, who is an honest historian, had to admit that he was stating something that he did not know for a one hundred per cent guaranteed fact, although there was some significant supporting evidence. So our AA historians have been checking that question out, simply to establish what the facts were here. And the answer at this point seems to be that we cannot know all of the facts surrounding Peabody's last days for sure, and that there may in fact have even been ameliorating circumstances (medical doctors sometimes prescribed small amounts of alcohol for heart patients in that period of history, as they did for my grandfather, who was not an alcoholic, during his last years, which was during the 1950's). So it is unfortunate that we cannot necessarily come up with a one hundred percent guaranteed answer to this particular question, but that is the nature of all real historical research. Not all historical questions can be answered with one hundred percent certainty. A good professional historian has to know, not only what we DO know for a fact, but what we do NOT know for an absolute fact. Nevertheless, we CAN say that we do not have much (if any) reliable data supporting the assertion that the Peabody method was a very workable method of dealing with alcoholism. And we can say that, in spite of the popularity of his book among the general public at that time, it wasn't going to be a real winner when it came to effectively dealing with the problem of alcoholism in the United States (where it was then, and still is, the third leading cause of death). That's why nobody tries to use the Peabody method any more. My own very rough observations are that, out of all the alcoholics whom I have known who obtained a five year survival rate (five years of unbroken sobriety), around 1% did that by will power alone (essentially the Peabody method), around 1% did that by going to a conservative evangelical church and reading the Bible and praying to Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and the other 98% get sober in AA. More alcoholics by far get sober in AA than by any other way, but I know of no sensible observer (including all of the people who regularly contribute to this web group) who would deny that the other two methods also sometimes work. At the present stage of research, it seems clear that Peabody's book, in spite of the fact that it was very widely read and very popular for a while, stopped being read and used because it simply didn't work very well, if at all. And the evidence surrounding Peabody's drinking during his own last years gives us at least no unambiguous evidence that the system worked for him either. On the basic issue, the fact is that almost nothing in the AA program was totally invented by the early AA people themselves. Almost everything in the AA program originally came from somewhere else, and had been said by somebody else before. So a decent history of early AA will be forced to write about the earlier attempts to deal with alcoholism in the United States from which the early AA people learned either (a) good ideas which they could borrow or (b) bad ideas which they needed to leave out of their new AA program if they wanted it to be as successful as possible. So we have no choice, when writing a full account of early AA history, but to write at least a little about things like the Oxford Group; the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club; Rowland Hazard and Carl Jung; Peabody's book; neo-Freudian psychiatrists like Adler; representatives of the New Thought movement like Emmet Fox and James Allen ( http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html ); and other ideas and movements of the early twentieth century. These become of interest to AA historians when it is clear that they had an effect on the way early AA people thought and believed. But those members of the group who are not interested in these things, and who want to focus solely on working out the dates and facts surrounding the lives of early AA members and early AA publications, should just delete these messages about the background to early AA. That's the advantage of being in a web group, as opposed to having to sit through a long conference, when one of the speakers spends a half hour ranting about something you aren't the slightest bit interested in (and anyway, you don't LIKE the jerk, he's obnoxious). Hit the delete button! But there is NO WAY that anyone could post messages for a group of over 1400 people all around the world, and guarantee that each individual member will NEVER see a message posted that he or she finds uninteresting (grin). Heck, I've seen strings of messages posted on this web site on certain occasions on things that I personally thought were unbelievably pedantic and boring, but some of the other members of the group found that topic fascinating, and since they are members of the group in good standing, they have their rights too. In the list of topics at the beginning of my heavily used and well worn copy of "As Bill Sees It: The A.A. Way of Life ... selected writings of A.A.'s cofounder" (23rd printing, 1989) there is a long list of reading on the topic of "tolerance" for other members of the program, warts and all (grin). Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3684. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First World Conference transcripts From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 10:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I believe part of what you are looking for is Bill's address entitled "We Come of Age" Cleveland July 28-30,1950 by Bill His presentation is 13 pages long and if anyone wants it I will mail it to you( free of charge) if you will provide me with your address or if you e-mail me and I'll scan it and e-mail it to you. Freely given and freely received. Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: Please e-mail Mike directely at the above e-mail address. We don't have a "forward" button on the Yahoo group system Pending Message board, which means that otherwise, I have to copy out your message and then paste it in Notepad, and then copy it out a second time and put it in an e-mail from me to that person, which makes things unnecessarily complicated. Thanks! Back to Mike's message.] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Our archives are a much cherished commodity. This puts a price on them. I am against making money off our history. It makes for the legitimate AA repositories being excluded because we ask for donations and many are unwilling to turn over our history to us when the almighty dollar is concerned. I'm also against legitimate AA archives restricting information/or access to AA members. Any donated AA history should be available to any alcoholic. No one should have the right to restrict its use(only exception is if the person who donates it restricts its use). Going soon to Baton Rouge, Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3685. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st International Conference From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 10:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a tentative program and flyer from that historic conference. It is interesting to note that the flyer indicates that it was being "sponsored by the pioneer groups ... Akron, New York, and Cleveland" ( I didn't know those three cities were referred to in that way.) Registration was $1.50 and banquet tickets were $5.00. For baseball tickets, reserved seats were $1.50 and box seats $2.00. The flyer also stated that "This event is rapidly snowballing into what, from all present indications, will prove to be the most important events in all AA history." (I guess that Bill meeting with Dr Bob was the second most important date in AA history?) Yours in Service, (Still on the way to Baton Rouge and then California, Oregon, and Washington) Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3686. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why no amends to family on page 76? From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2006 8:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Amends to the family are emphasized in the first paragraph on page 83 as well as in other sections of our Basic Text. In God's love and service, Cliff Bishop Home - (214) 350-1190 Cell - (214) 532-5371 FAX - (214) 350-1190 CBBB164@aol.com www.ppgaadallas.org _______________________________________ In a message dated 9/5/2006, cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk writes: Steps Eight and Nine, making amends: Big Book 4th edition pg 76 chapter "Into Action." "Probably there are still some misgivings. As we look over the list of business acquaintances and friends we have hurt, we feel diffident about going to some of them on a spiritual basis....." My home group has a question regarding the above paragraph and have asked for the AA History lovers' views and opinions. Why in this paragraph is there no mention made of making amends to members of our families whom we may have harmed? Many thanks Carl P Barking Big Book Study (The Way Out) _________________________________ From the moderator: for our members in other parts of the world, the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham is in England, located in the County of Greater London on the eastern side. Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3687. . . . . . . . . . . . Jimmy B. Grapevine Article (1968) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2006 11:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sober for Thirty Years One of the earliest members of the first New York AA group, he was also its first "self-proclaimed atheist" As NOTED in my story, "The Vicious Cycle," in the Big Book, I came into the Fellowship in New York in January, 1938. At that time it was just leaving the Oxford Group. There was one closed discussion meeting a week, at Bill's home in Brooklyn - attendance six or eight men, with only three members who had been sober more than one year: Bill, Hank, and Fritz. This is about all that had been accomplished in the four years with the New York Oxford Group. During those early meetings at Bill's, they were flying blind, with no creed or procedure to guide them, though they did use quite a few of the Oxford sayings and the Oxford Absolutes. Since both Bill and Dr. Bob had had almost-overnight religious experiences, it was taken for granted that all who followed their way would have the same sort of experience. So the early meetings were quite religious, in both New York and Akron. There was always a Bible on hand, and the concept of God was all biblical. Into this fairly peaceful picture came I, their first self-proclaimed atheist, completely against all religions and conventions. I was the captain of my own ship. (The only trouble was, my ship was completely disabled and rudderless.) So naturally I started fighting nearly all the things Bill and the others stood for, especially religion, the "God bit." But I did want to stay sober, and I did love the understanding Fellowship. So I became quite a problem to that early group, with my constant haranguing against all the spiritual angles. All of a sudden, the group became really worried. Here I had stayed sober five whole months while fighting everything the others stood for. I was now number four in "seniority." I found out later they had a prayer meeting on "what to do with Jim." The consensus seemed to have been that they hoped I would either leave town or get drunk. That prayer must have been right on target, for I was suddenly taken drunk on a sales trip. This became the shock and the bottom I needed. At this time I was selling auto polish to jobbers for a company that Bill and Hank were sponsoring, and I was doing pretty well, too. But despite this, I was tired and completely isolated there in Boston. My fellow alcoholics really put the pressure on as I sobered up after four days of no relief, and for the first time I admitted I couldn't stay sober alone. My closed mind opened a bit. Those folks back in New York, the folks who believed, had stayed sober. And I hadn't. Since this episode I don't think I have ever argued with anyone else's beliefs. Who am I to say? I finally crawled back to New York and was soon back in the fold. About this time, Bill and Hank were just beginning to write the AA Big Book. I do feel sure my experience was not in vain, for "God" was broadened to cover all types and creeds: "God as we understood Him." I feel my spiritual growth over these past thirty years has been very gradual and steady. I have no desire to "graduate" from AA. I try to keep my memories green by staying active in AA - a couple of meetings weekly. For the new agnostic or atheist just coming in, I will try to give very briefly my milestones in recovery: The first power I found greater than myself was John Barleycorn. The AA Fellowship became my higher power for the first two years. Gradually, I came to believe that God and Good were synonymous and were to be found in all of us. And I found that by meditating and trying to tune in on my better Self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady. J.B. San Diego, California AA Grapevine, May 1968 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3688. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in Great Britain and Ireland: significant dates From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2006 9:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sally Cousins in Bristol, England, suggested an important date for our Significant September Dates in AA History. One thing that I believe might be even more historically significant occurred in 1957. The first overseas General Service Board of AA in Great Britain and Ireland was established. It's a huge milestone in the history of the "internationalization" of the General Service Structure and national autonomy. See AA Comes of Age pg ix - it gives the year but not the month. Perhaps our Archives friends in the UK can find out the specific date when the UK/Ireland board was chartered. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Bristol Fashion Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 Subject: Significant September dates in A.A. History Can you fit the following date in somewhere? Sept 1971 First European Convention, Bristol, England Yours Sally Cousins Archivist IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3689. . . . . . . . . . . . APOAR and Robert Emmett Rack From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 10:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is anyone familiar with APOAR(Applied Principles of Alcoholic Recovery) by Robert Emmett Rack and if it is still being used in Prisons and Institutions? I'm not in "the field" but have looked at what he has written and wonder about its success. Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3690. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1st International Conference From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2006 9:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mike The program for the event (see one of the pages attached) also describes Cleveland as "the birthplace of our movement." This was all part of Clarence Snyder's claim that the Cleveland Group was the first to use the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" to describe itself. Based on my own research, this claim is false - Bill W was using the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" to describe the Fellowship nearly a year prior to Clarence using it and well before the Cleveland Group was started (it started shortly after the Big Book was published). Clarence also liked to call himself the "founder" of AA. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 1:27 AM From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Subject: 1st International Conference I have a tentative program and flyer from that historic conference. It is interesting to note that the flyer indicates that it was being "sponsored by the pioneer groups ... Akron, New York, and Cleveland" (I didn't know those three cities were referred to in that way.) Registration was $1.50 and banquet tickets were $5.00. For baseball tickets, reserved seats were $1.50 and box seats $2.00. The flyer also stated that "This event is rapidly snowballing into what, from all present indications, will prove to be the most important events in all AA history." (I guess that Bill meeting with Dr Bob was the second most important date in AA history?) Yours in Service, (Still on the way to Baton Rouge and then California, Oregon, and Washington) Shakey Mike Gwirtz ___________________________________ NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: Please guys! Let's not get into a bitter fight over "who was right" and "who was wrong." As AA historians, we need to observe that there was a major struggle within AA at one point in the late 1940's and early 1950's, with a small but very determined group of AA leaders struggling to remove Bill Wilson and his close associates in New York City from their position of dominance over the AA movement. Clarence Snyder, Henrietta Seiberling, Bill VanHorn, Royal F. Shepard, and others were involved in this AA "Orthodox Movement" during that time period. Some of Bill W.'s crucial decisions in turn, during that period, were directed towards countering their influence. From Bill W.'s perspective, the greatest peril which AA was in at that point, was the danger of being fragmented into a number of warring regional centers, including not only Cleveland but also Texas, each one claiming to be the proper place to serve as the international headquarters and center of the worldwide movement. Bill W. was afraid that this was going to produce a number of different warring AA "sects" instead of a single AA fellowship, with a single coherent basic philosophy and set of organizational principles, for the entire world. From the viewpoint of the Orthodox Movement, they (and people in many other parts of the U.S. and Canada) were being allowed little or no input into the discussions among the little circle of people in New York City who were making most of the decisions at that time. From the viewpoint of the Orthodox Movement, it also seemed necessary to make clear that New York City was not Rome, Bill W. was not the Pope, and the people at the New York AA office did not get to wear red robes like the Cardinals in the Vatican. The system of dividing AA into Areas which would send Delegates to New York City was one of the ideas that were subsequently developed to deal with some of the legitimate complaints of the Orthodox Movement. The system of moving the Internationals around to different parts of the U.S. and Canada every time they were held was another response to AA people in places like Ohio and Texas who were getting ready to take matters into their own hands, if no one took their objections to over-centralization seriously. Instead of getting over-diverted into disputes over who first came up with the idea of calling the movement "Alcoholics Anonymous," and why Bill W. was the only major AA leader who did not work for a living at an outside job, it is necessary to remember the more important issues involved in that set of historical disputes, which were very important in the historical evolution of early AA. The issues of local autonomy vs. central control within the AA structure are still very much alive today, and high feelings and angry words can still explode quickly. The fundamental philosophical issues involved in the dispute raised by the Orthodox Movement in the 1940's and 50's were real ones -- looking at what happened back then is not just a study of the dead past. For those who wish to know more about the Orthodox Movement, Mitchell K. (author of "How It Worked: The Story of Clarence H. Snyder and the Early Days of Alcoholics Anonymous in Cleveland, Ohio") is a modern representative and defender of the movement and its ideas. Glenn C., Moderator AAHistoryLovers [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3691. . . . . . . . . . . . A good children''s book on Bill W. From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 3:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tom White, "Bill W., a Different Kind of Hero: The Story of Alcoholics Anonymous" (Honesdale, Pennsylvania: Boyds Mills Press, 2003), 64 pp., ISBN 1-59078-1, $16.95. Recommended for ages 10 to 14, but it would surely be appropriate for high school students too, and adults would be impressed at the level of psychological analysis, even if it is put in simple language. There are some interesting photos reproduced in this book, and some very interesting new insights into Bill W.'s early life. A very positive and sympathetic account of his life and development. The publisher's description is a good summary of the book: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - There are heroes of politics, religion, war, and history. There are heroes of sport, science, and legend. Bill Wilson was an entirely different kind of hero. After years of unhappiness and hospitalizations for alcoholism, Bill Wilson hit bottom. Although not a religious man, he lay in a bed in Towns Hospital and in desperation called out to God. In response he experienced a tremendous inner vision. Instantly, he was a changed man. Although many difficulties lay ahead, Bill drew strength from his vision and his own experiences an alcoholic. He became the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1935. He created the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions that would serve as the foundation of AA's program for recovery from this widespread addiction. He wrote and compiled AA's "Big Book," which became a kind of Bible for AA members. In the almost 70 years since Alcoholics Anonymous was founded, Bill's words, ideas, and personal dedication have brought hope to millions of "hopeless drunks" throughout the world. Few heroes in any field have contributed so much to human well-being. This book offers Bill Wilson's story. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Very positive reviews in the "School Library Journal," "Publishers Weekly," "Booklist," and a number of other places. The author, Tom White, may be contacted for more information at: tomwhite@cableone.net (tomwhite at cableone.net). More information online at: http://www.boydsmillspress.com/authors.tpl?command=showpageandauthorid=078 3 This webpage then links to: http://www.boydsmillspress.com/detail.tpl?command=showpageandisbn=1_59078_ 067_1andbo\ okid=0633andauthorid=0783andbkcategory=NonfictionandBookTitle=Bill%20W .%20%20A%20Diffe\ rent%20Kind%20of%20Hero%3A%20The%20Story%20of%20Alcoholics%20Anonymous [11] ______________________________ Note by the moderator: Not just a very good book to buy and contribute to Alateen groups, I learned some interesting things myself about Bill W.'s life and the psychological pressures on him in his childhood and youth from reading this book. Beautifully printed and illustrated, a really first class little book. I'm breaking the normal rule we follow in the AAHistoryLovers by not just listing this book as available, but also including a note of recommendation, because I am afraid that it being a children's book might cause it to be overlooked or discounted by the members of the group. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3692. . . . . . . . . . . . New book on the Oxford Group and AA From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 3:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn F. Chesnut, "Changed by Grace: V. C. Kitchen, the Oxford Group, and A.A.," September 2006, ISBN 0-595-40680-7, xv + 184 pp., $17.95. For a description of the book, including the table of contents, see http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html To read Chapter 7,"The Names of God: How to Find a God of Our Understanding," go to http://hindsfoot.org/namegod.html This is a book about Bill Wilson's Oxford Group friend in New York City, Victor C. Kitchen, and Kitchen's book describing the Oxford Group and its teachings, "I Was a Pagan," which came out in 1934, the same year that Bill W. discovered the Oxford Group. The full text of Victor C. Kitchen's "I Was a Pagan" can be found at http://www.stepstudy.org/downloads/pagan.pdf The full text of H. A. Walter's "Soul Surgery" can also be found at the same source: http://www.stepstudy.org/downloads/soulsurgery.pdf This is the great book describing the 5 C's (including "confession"), which was an important part of Oxford Group doctrine. The 5 C's are referred to explicitly in Richmond Walker's "Twenty-four Hours a Day," the second most widely read book by an AA author. See Chesnut's book, Chapter 2, section three, page 36, for a discussion of the 5 C's and the way they affected the early AA understanding of the twelve steps, particularly their understanding of how good twelfth step work should be carried out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3693. . . . . . . . . . . . The Vicious Cycle, removed or not? From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/8/2006 6:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The story "The Vicious Cycle" appears in the book "Experience, Strength and Hope" with the following comment on page 220: "After lengthy consideration, the committee eliminated the stories you are about to read." So, if "The Vicious Cycle" was eliminated and published in ESandH, then why is it still in my copy of the 4th Edition of the Big Book? Does everyone else have "The Vicious Cycle" in their Big Books? Which is in error, ESandH or the Big Book? They can't both be right, can they? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3694. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Richard Peabody died drunk? Documentation? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/8/2006 9:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Arthur, I believe the article you referred to was written by Kathy McCarthy, who is the daughter of the late Ray McCarthy, a pioneer in alcoholism treatment. I knew Kathy about 20 years ago but haven't been in touch with her recently. I don't have the article at hand but I seem to remember that she said something like "it is commonly believed that Peabody died drunk," or something like that. "Commonly believed" is hearsay and not real verification. Nell Wing also thought Peabody drank again, but had no proof of it. I'm suspecting that all this may have been rumor from an early AA such as Jim Burwell, who may or may not have had proof to support the claim. In fairness to Peabody's memory, somebody ought to track this down to determine what was the real cause of Peabody's death, as reported on his death certificate. Unless alcoholism was specifically stated there, we cannot assume he actually went back to drinking. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3695. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Richard Peabody died drunk? Documentation? From: michael oates . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2006 10:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII [Over 75% of the AA members whose stories appeared in the first edition of the Big Book in 1939 were sober as of AA's twentieth anniversay in 1955. The false statement (heard passed around in some AA circles) that "the majority of the early members died drunk" is totally erroneous, and built on the incorrect assumption that those whose stories were replaced in the second edition had their stories removed from the Big Book because they had gone back to drinking. As Arthur Sheehan says, what they were trying to do in 1955 was get what they thought was a better and more carefully written set of stories to replace some of those which had been hastily tossed together for the first edition when they were in a big hurry to get the book done and to the printer. --Summary by the moderator] We need to look back at Arthur Sheehan's message No. 2464, which appeared here in the AAHistoryLovers on June 11, 2005, which is a carefully researched statement of the actual facts. Let us give Arthur's entire original message here: __________________________________ This posting is an appeal to exercise care that AAHistoryLovers not be a vehicle for the propagation of myth .... A very durable myth within AA today is the assertion that many early members, whose stories appeared in the 1st Ed Big Book, died drunk. To state that this myth is built on a meager thread is putting it mildly. Even more meager is the presentation of solid evidence to substantiate the assertion. The myth is principally based on anecdotal hearsay and its presumption of validity is based solely on droning repetition. Myths are easily spawned within AA and two common practices fuel their propagation. The first is the construal of the figurative as the literal; the second is the presumption that a member's duration of dry time somehow equates to their degree of knowledge and accuracy. It's one thing for a member to give testimony about what they have personally observed and quite another if the testimony is about what they sincerely believe. The strong verbal tradition in AA provides an easy means for the propagation of myth. Repetition then gives the myth the semblance of validity. Let's look at the myth in question. In the introduction to the story section in the 2nd Ed Big Book it states: "When first published in 1939, this book carried twenty-nine stories about alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with the greatest number of readers, the new Second Edition (1955) carries a considerably enlarged story section, as above described. Concerning the original twenty-nine case histories, it is a deep satisfaction to record, as of 1955, that twenty-two have apparently made full recovery from their alcoholism. Of these, fifteen have remained completely sober for an average of seventeen years each, according to our best knowledge and belief." In the introduction to the "Pioneers of AA Section" stories of the 2nd Ed it goes on to state: "Dr Bob and the twelve men and women who here tell their stories were among the early members of AA's first groups. Though three have passed away of natural causes, all have maintained complete sobriety for periods ranging from fifteen to nineteen years as of this date 1955. Today, hundreds of additional AA members can be found who have had no relapse for at least fifteen years. All of these then are the pioneers of AA. They bear witness that release from alcoholism can really be permanent." 22 of the stories that appeared in the 1st Ed Big Book were dropped for the 2nd Ed. These stories were not removed because the members went back to drinking (although some did). According to Bill W's introduction to the stories in the 2nd Ed Big Book, 75+% (22 out of 29) of these early members were sober as of AA's 20th anniversary (1955). 7 of the 29 had returned to drinking but subsequently sobered up again. Another 7 of the 29 returned to drinking and did not sober up. The stories of 22 members were removed to establish a more representative sampling of the cross-section of the AA membership - not because they were drinking again or had died drunk. If anyone is overly concerned that any of these early members returned to drinking, please keep in mind that every one of them had at one time been considered hopeless. Also keep in mind that the chief characteristic that makes an alcoholic an alcoholic is the inclination to drink again despite all kinds of evidence that says they have no business picking up that first drink (i.e. the jaywalker story). If anyone has credible evidence to the contrary regarding the above, please submit it for scrutiny. There are similar myths circulating in AA about the success rates and growth rates achieved in AA today compared to the 1940s and 50s. Those too are premised on the most slender of threads and appear far more agenda-driven than fact-based. Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3696. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Vicious Cycle, removed or not? From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 6:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "So, if "The Vicious Cycle" was eliminated and published in ESandH, then why is it still in my copy of the 4th Edition of the Big Book? Does everyone else have "The Vicious Cycle" in their Big Books? Which is in error, ESandH or the Big Book? They can't both be right, can they?: It is my understanding that Experience, Strength and Hope was to include all stories from all 4 editions of the Big Book. That at least was the information conveyed through the delegates to the Assemblies when the book was coming out. Why it was labeled as you describe it, I do not know. You could try contacting AAWS/GSO on this. They are usually helpful. This can be done personally or through your area delegate. tmd IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3697. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Vicious Cycle, removed or not? From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 3:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jimmy B's story "The Vicious Cycle" is on pg.219 of the 4th Ed. of the Big Book. On Pg 220 of Experience Strength and Hope, I do not see any mention of the story nor does it appear in that publication. I do know that the stories of Clarence S, "Home Brewmeister, and Sackville M. "The Career Officer" were removed from the Big Book and that may members were concerned about that and some expressed their feelings. The book ESandH is a very valuable addition to any member of AAHL. The stories included here are our history and I personally do not think that there is enough use of this book amongst the AA fellowship. Yours in Service, and getting closer to Baton Rouge, Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3698. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A good children''s book on Bill W. From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 10:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Glenn, I was delighted to see your report on Tom White's book about Bill W. I recommend this book highly. I met Tom 43 years ago in New York City, when he was editor of The Grapevine and also edited a trade magazine. He and I both knew Bill W., although I think Tom saw Bill more often than I did. Tom is currently working on a similar book about Dr. Bob, and I think this will be another fine contribution to our literature. I'm sure he would appreciate having any information about Dr. Bob that might not be known to the general fellowship. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ______________________________________ TOM WHITE MAY BE CONTACTED AT: tomwhite@cableone.net (tomwhite at cableone.net) ______________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Chesnut" Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 3:30 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] A good children's book on Bill W. > Tom White, "Bill W., a Different Kind of Hero: > The Story of Alcoholics Anonymous" (Honesdale, > Pennsylvania: Boyds Mills Press, 2003), 64 pp., > ISBN 1-59078-1, $16.95. > > Recommended for ages 10 to 14, but it would surely > be appropriate for high school students too, and > adults would be impressed at the level of psychological > analysis, even if it is put in simple language. > There are some interesting photos reproduced in this > book, and some very interesting new insights into > Bill W.'s early life. A very positive and sympathetic > account of his life and development. > > The publisher's description is a good summary of > the book: > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > There are heroes of politics, religion, war, and > history. There are heroes of sport, science, and > legend. Bill Wilson was an entirely different kind > of hero. After years of unhappiness and hospitalizations > for alcoholism, Bill Wilson hit bottom. Although > not a religious man, he lay in a bed in Towns Hospital > and in desperation called out to God. In response > he experienced a tremendous inner vision. Instantly, > he was a changed man. Although many difficulties > lay ahead, Bill drew strength from his vision and > his own experiences an alcoholic. He became the > co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1935. He > created the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions that > would serve as the foundation of AA's program for > recovery from this widespread addiction. He wrote > and compiled AA's "Big Book," which became a kind > of Bible for AA members. In the almost 70 years since > Alcoholics Anonymous was founded, Bill's words, ideas, > and personal dedication have brought hope to millions > of "hopeless drunks" throughout the world. Few heroes > in any field have contributed so much to human > well-being. This book offers Bill Wilson's story. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Very positive reviews in the "School Library Journal," > "Publishers Weekly," "Booklist," and a number of other > places. > > The author, Tom White, may be contacted for more > information at: > > tomwhite@cableone.net (tomwhite at cableone.net). > > More information online at: > http://www.boydsmillspress.com/authors.tpl?command=showpageandauthorid=078 3 > > This webpage then links to: > http://www.boydsmillspress.com/detail.tpl?command=showpageandisbn=1_59078_ 067_1andbo\ okid=0633andauthorid=0783andbkcategory=NonfictionandBookTitle=Bill%20W .%20%20A%20Diffe\ rent%20Kind%20of%20Hero%3A%20The%20Story%20of%20Alcoholics%20Anonymous [11] > > ______________________________ > > Note by the moderator: > > Not just a very good book to buy and contribute > to Alateen groups, I learned some interesting things > myself about Bill W.'s life and the psychological > pressures on him in his childhood and youth from > reading this book. Beautifully printed and illustrated, > a really first class little book. > > I'm breaking the normal rule we follow in the > AAHistoryLovers by not just listing this book as > available, but also including a note of recommendation, > because I am afraid that it being a children's book > might cause it to be overlooked or discounted by the > members of the group. > > Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3699. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 1st International Conference From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 11:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Art, The best proof that Alcoholics Anonymous was used prior to the May startup in Cleveland is in the Big Book. I have an original copy of the first printing of the first edition, often identified by its red cover. The Foreword, on page vii, reads this way: "We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body." This book was published in April, 1939, a month before the Cleveland beginning. But the actual writing and typesetting would have been completed earlier, perhaps in January or February. So the name was already in use and had been generally accepted. Nell Wing told me that the AA name was being used in mid-1938, though probably not in Akron, where the break with the Oxford Group occurred in November, 1939. Bill W. told me that the Akron Group stayed with the O.G. this long only because of their devotion to T. Henry and Clarace Williams, the gracious couple who turned their home over for weekly meetings. When the break finally came, Dr. Bob described it as getting out from under the yoke of the O.G., which certainly suggests that the alcoholics were becoming restive in that situation, despite their gratitude to the Williamses. Clarence Snyder deserves lots of credit for his marvelous work in Cleveland and the way he sponsored and helped many people over the years. But the heavy lifting in starting AA had already been done before he got sober in 1938, and he had the Big Book and other advantages when he launched that first group in Cleveland. In fact, he had a number of Cleveland members who had been traveling to Akron with him and learning from Dr. Bob and others. Even if Clarence had not started that Cleveland group in May, other groups around the country would have come into being at the same time using the AA name and with no Oxford Group affiliation. Clarence has presentday devotees who use his methods and report wonderful outcomes as a result. That speaks well for Clarence and ought to be publicized for those who will accept the special points he offered. His wife, Grace, carried on his work after his passing in 1984. Clarence was continuously critical of Bill W. and told me that "Bill never had a program." Bill was always conciliatory towards Clarence and never stopped giving him credit for his fine work in Cleveland. He would have liked having Clarence as a warm and supportive friend, but that didn't happen. They did have a good conversation at the International Convention in Toronot in 1965, a meeting initiated by Bill. I hope there is now harmony as both of them attend meetings of the Big Group in the Sky. Mel Barger IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3700. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: APOAR and Robert Emmett Rack From: Joe Adams . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2006 12:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm not old enough to have gone through APOAR, but my father did and swears by it. He's now 80 with 45 years of recovery behind him (DOS: 2/6/1961). I have one of his two copies of APOAR - Applied Principles of Alcoholic Recovery, subtitled "Alocholism - A Metaphysical Malady". My copy gives a 1965 and 1966 copyrights with no mention of previous editions. Library of Congress Card No. A782629 When dad tried to get sober he had several shakey starts and credits the APOAR approach to locking him in. They focused on the process* of Steps 4 thru 9 and had a good deal of success in the early 1960s with men of the Freedom Group in downtown Los Angeles. The book is not very well written but saturated with experience on doing the Inventory and Amends steps. *I say "process" because the book does not refer to the the Twelve Steps or Alocholics Anonymous in any of the portions I've read. It is clearly the Inventory (listed as "Knowledge") and Amends (identified as "Release"). Dad stil refers to 4 and 5 as the Knowledge Steps and 6-7-8-9 as the Release Steps. That is not in the book. If you are familier with the Big Book and its history, it sometimes reads like a lawyer advising how to avoid being sued by AA. Somehwere in the middle they switched from Applied Principles of ALCOHOLIC Recovery to Applied Principles of ADDICTIVE Recovery - I suspect some commercial possibilities were the reason for the change. The opening section of the book include "To The Overweight Society" with comment on Applied Principles of AVOIRDUPOIS Recovery and connections between alcoholism and overeating, followed with a food plan that is amazingly similar to Overeater's Anonymous original "Grey Sheet" abstinence food plan. Interesting. From my dad's discussions with me about the One Way Group and the author, Rob someone who took the ideas of the steps and presented them in a way guys from Skid Row in L.A. could grasp, with solid action and tons of writing. Dad was one of many men who had trouble starting his sobriety and credits the deep inveotry of APOAR with his foundation. Rob R. thought he was going to be rich and became something of a somebody in West Coast recovery. For a time. Dad says Rob hit a snag and found he needed to become a more anonymous to work his program. Apparently Mr. R went back into AA as an anonymous member and reclaimed his recovery. APOAR as a franchise ... I'm not sure where else it was used. Prisons would be reasonable target - APOAR offered hard core, no nonsense Recovery without any veneer. I treat it as a dialect of the message from the big book. If I could find a way scan the book without destroying the binding, I would. The book (8.5 x 11, green cover, tape binding with staples, 199 pages, multi-lith - which was one step up from mimeograph). I have a scan of a small "Inventory Guide" that was used in conjunction with the APOAR book, but was not part of their materials. I'll send a copy of the scan with this message for Glenn to see if it would be appropriate to post to the group's Files section I have pulled a good deal from their book for working with the men I have sponsored over the years. The focus is on a THOROUGH 4th, followed by 5 thru 9 give a foundation for recovery. The ones who have gone through a solid 9th tend to stick around and stay sober. In myh own experiences - which is just one drunk - everyone who has stopped somewhere between 5 and 9 have gone back out. Hope that helps. Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote: Is anyone familiar with APOAR(Applied Principles of Alcoholic Recovery) by Robert Emmett Rack and if it is still being used in Prisons and Institutions? I'm not in "the field" but have looked at what he has written and wonder about its success. -------- A closed mouth gathers no feet. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3701. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Richard Peabody died drunk? Documentation? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2006 12:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mel I have found only indirect, not direct, references about Peabody but they seem to add some substance to the probability that he didn't stay sober. Again though in fairness, I've not yet encountered "proof positive." It reminds me somewhat of the assertions regarding Rowland H and whether he died sober or not - I've seen what appears to be credible reporting on both sides. However, in the message where I said that Peabody died drunk I really should have said that Peabody may have died drunk based on anecdotal reports. I doubt strongly that the absence of the word "alcoholism" specifically stated on a death certificate would serve to prove that Peabody died sober. For example, people die of emphysema (such as Ebby T and Bill W) yet the death certificate might show heart failure or something else as opposed to "smoking" as the cause of death. The effects of alcoholism on the body is equally pernicious in causing death as a consequence of high blood pressure, diabetes, cirrhosis and a host of other maladies that would likely not be described as "alcoholism" on a death certificate. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mel Barger Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 8:40 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Richard Peabody died drunk? Documentation? Hi Arthur, I believe the article you referred to was written by Kathy McCarthy, who is the daughter of the late Ray McCarthy, a pioneer in alcoholism treatment. I knew Kathy about 20 years ago but haven't been in touch with her recently. I don't have the article at hand but I seem to remember that she said something like "it is commonly believed that Peabody died drunk," or something like that. "Commonly believed" is hearsay and not real verification. Nell Wing also thought Peabody drank again, but had no proof of it. I'm suspecting that all this may have been rumor from an early AA such as Jim Burwell, who may or may not have had proof to support the claim. In fairness to Peabody's memory, somebody ought to track this down to determine what was the real cause of Peabody's death, as reported on his death certificate. Unless alcoholism was specifically stated there, we cannot assume he actually went back to drinking. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3702. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Orthodox Movement? From: ricktompkins@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/11/2006 10:41:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good morning AAHL group, The conduct of some early AA members (alluded to in the last few messages about the First International Convention) was closer to inciting mob action than about fostering unity. I have read one letter, sent across the U.S. to AA groups of the time, from a New Jersey AA member who wrote in 1950 against the creation of the General Service Conference. Full of suspicion and accusations, the letter closed with his name as a member of the Orthodox Group. Did an organized Orthodox "Group" or "Movement" really exist? Actually a small number of AAs remained at constant odds with the 1940s Alcoholic Foundation and Bill in NYC, but I have found very few records of an actual "Orthodox Group." Remember that both Bill and Dr. Bob served as AF Trustees and examine one recurring complaint: during the 1940s both Bill and Dr. Bob were rumored to make lots of money in royalties from Big Book sales. Bill presented the meager fiscal record of payments at meetings in Ohio and elsewhere that refuted the charges of profiteering. The idea of Bill and Bob receiving royalties as being "hypocritical and anti-AA" softened up a bit when communication improved. Truth and fact never quieted those early personalities at odds with Bill, but I believe we are a better Fellowship today because of their opinions. Incidentally, Bill experienced much frustration with the inactions of non-alcoholic AF Trustees, when it came down to their understanding of our developing AA Traditions as well as the concept of an annual World (General) Service Conference. The Conference idea developed from years of a consensus search before the November 1950 pamphlet "Our Third Legacy-Will You Accept It?" drove the final consensus search. To an "Orthodox Movement" of the 1940s I could toss a few more names in that contrarian group but there seems no need to fling around any more of their old mud... A lot of talk (and, in early AA, written words) is always cheap. Here in Illinois AA Archives are letters written between a few 1940s Illinois members in various cities that are full of slander and sarcasm about other AAs. The correspondence is under the sensitive/confidential classification level and has little relevance to Illinois AA history outside of being an examples of colorful, personal, negative conduct. I have never seen any evidence that Bill's tack was to counter-balance or politick a consensus against an Orthodox Movement. The intent to search for consensus actually developed a relatively strong unity for our adolescent Fellowship. Bill (and others) gave us an effective example for our own conduct, to seek diverse views and move forward. Our AA group consciences (right or wrong, correct or in error) remain the driving force of prudent changes or reaffirmation, but fortunately we are a Fellowship that corrects itself! Our Tradition Two, Concept Four, and Concept Five encourage minority views, but emphasize that abiding with an informed group conscience is a much more important activity. There seem to be two types of criticism from AA members: constructive or libelous--we grow with one of them (the former) but our historical survival came with both. Yours in fellowship, Rick T., Illinois [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3703. . . . . . . . . . . . Clarence did not write program for 1st Internat''l Conf. From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 7:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Talk about resentments, being closed minded and misquoting. Clarence had nothing to do with the writing of the program for that event. The Stanley brothers were pretty much in charge. Art says "This was all part of Clarence Snyder's claim..." Again Art - CLARENCE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WRITING OF THE PROGRAM - THE FINAL COPY, THE DRAFT COPY OR THE TENTATIVE COPY! Clarence also never claimed that the Goldrick Group was the first to use the TERM Alcoholics Anonymous to describe itself. There is NO evidence or documentation (maybe there is now, like the so-called loaner stamp on the multilith which was never there before) showing where gatherings of members of the Fellowship called these meetings Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. Clarence called the meeting itself an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting after the book of the same name - he wasn't referring to the Fellowship or the book or the foundation but specifically the MEETING. NOWHERE in the archives (unless it was recently manufactured) is there a reference to holding an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting where a bunch of members met to share their experience, strength and hope. There is also NO evidence showing that Alcoholics Anonymous was ever called AA prior to Clarence using that term. Nell Wing said that Clarence was the first to use the initials AA as a description of Alcoholics Anonymous. Ergo...Clarence was the founder of AA (not Alcoholics Anonymous but the term AA). Cheers IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3704. . . . . . . . . . . . Two other stories removed from 4th edition From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 4:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Much to my regret two other stories were removed in the 4th edition which I thought were historically significant: *FROM FARM TO CITY, by Ethel Macy (Ethel's date of sobriety was May 8, 1941. (She was the first woman to get sober in Akron.) *HE THOUGHT HE COULD DRINK LIKE A GENTLEMAN, by Abby Golrick (It was at his home where Clarence Snyder started Cleveland's first AA meeting, just one month after the BB was published.) Bob S., Richmond, IN IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3705. . . . . . . . . . . . The Vicious Cycle: the puzzle solved From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/10/2006 7:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jared L. solves the problem, also Shakey Mike notes that there were two different editions of EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH, AND HOPE, the first with and the second without "The Vicious Cycle." With other notes by Kim "Skid" Rowe, Sam Sommers, and Maria Hoffman. Plans for the 4th ed. BB were changed and "The Vicious Cycle" was put back into the BB after ESH was already out. The 2nd ed. of ESH corrected what was now an erroneous statement (although it had been made in good faith), and removed "The Vicious Cycle" from this later edition. If you get the most recent versions of the BB and ESH, it all works out correctly now! ______________________________ From: "jlobdell54" (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) Jimmy B's Story (The Vicious Cycle) I understand the story had been dropped from the 4th edition and thus incorporated in EXPERIENCE STRENGTH AND HOPE but the Publications Committee decided that one story should be added back to the Fourth Edition (I believe for reasons of length of book) and "The Vicious Cycle" was added back, perhaps because it had been the last one to be omitted. But by that time ESH was in press? ______________________________ From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) My 1st edition 1st printing of ESandH does have the Vicious Cycle in it. The 2nd editon does not have it. GSO must have removed it after realizing they had made a mistake. Not their first mistake or mine. Shakey "On the way to Baton Rouge" Mike ______________________________ The original problem which was posed: the first edition of ESH contains "The Vicious Cycle" and claims that it was removed from the fourth edition of the BB. But the first printing of the fourth edition of the BB does in fact HAVE "The Vicious Cycle" in its story section. Kim "Skid" Rowe, Sam Sommers, and Maria Hoffman all reported their puzzlement at what they found in their copies of the ESH and BB. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: "Kimball" (rowek at softcom.net) Dear Mike My copy of "Experience, Strength and Hope" is a First Edition, First Printing, April 2003. On pg 220 is the announcement that the following stories were eliminated from the Big Book. On pg 256 is the story "The Vicious Cycle." My copy of "Alcoholics Anonymous" (Big Book) is a Fourth Edition, First Printing, October 2001. On pg 219 is the story "The Vicious Cycle," reportedly eliminated. Just to make sure I understand your response correctly, are you saying that your page 256 of your copy of "Experience Strength and Hope" does not have "The Vicious Cycle"? Kim "Skid" Rowe - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: "scmws" (scmws at yahoo.com) In my 1st edition 1st printing copy of Experience, Strength and Hope, "The Vicious Cycle" does appear on page 256-267. Page 219-220 is the introduction to the section of stories deleted from the third edition when the fourth edition of the Big Book were published. I agree that as a fellowship we could and should use all the stories in ESandH and the fourth edition of the Big Book more than we do. Grace to you Sam Sommers Elkhart Indiana - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: "momaria33772" (jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com) Thanks to the person who brought up this question. Interesting.... I am using my First ed., First Printing of both of these books. Mine does certainly have both stories printed, the BB is on page 219, ESandH is on pg. 256. Both are in Table of contents, and in the book itself. The description given on the front Book cover, first sentence, says, "The collection of stories offers back to the AA fellowship the experience of 56 members whose stories are no longer available in the book Alcoholics Anonymous." In 2006 this is the first notice I have heard, I guess that means I haven't made much use of the new book. OOOPS! Hope Baton Rouge is a fun, informative time for all who can make it there. Enjoy! L and S, Maria Hoffman IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3706. . . . . . . . . . . . Is AAWS tightening up restrictions on reprinting? From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/14/2006 12:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I got an e-mail from someone asking if I've heard that AAWS is pulling permission to reprint anything they "own." Grapevine articles, writing by Bill etc. He said that AAWS alone from now on will be the sole source of anything related to AA. Anyone hear of this? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3707. . . . . . . . . . . . Culture Alcohol and Society Quarterly newsletter (Brown) From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/14/2006 10:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII For those HistoryLovers who might be interested (the newsletter contains occasional articles on AA history, tho' recently more on the Washingtonians), issues are available free in pdf format at www.brown.edu/Facilities/University_Library/libs/hay/collections/kirk/ casq/casq.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3708. . . . . . . . . . . . 2007 History and Archives Gathering June 16th From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/12/2006 5:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The 2007 Multi-District History and Archives Gathering will be held at least on Saturday June 16th, 2007, somewhere in the triangle formed by Lebanon PA (2006), Elizabethtown PA (2004) and Summerdale PA (2003 across the Susquehanna from Harrisburg). The most likely location is Lebanon, Pennsylvania. Please keep the date free if you're interested in attending - - which we hope you are. I hope those who came in any of the past years will be in touch with me soon to let me know if they're coming in 2007 and if they have any suggestions. Thanks very much -- Jared Lobdell jlobdell54@hotmail.com (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) P.S. Besides hearing (with suggestions) from those who were at the past three Gatherings, we would like to hear from others who would be interested in coming to the 2007 Gathering, to gauge interest. ______________________________ Message #3609: Report on last year's Gathering From: "Al Welch" welch@a-1associates.com (welch at a-1associates.com) Had an opportunity to attend the "Multi-District History and Archives Gathering" in Lebanon, Pennsylvania, last Saturday (June 24, 2006). The event was really great. Jared Lobdell headed up the entire event and participated in some of the presentations. Mitch Klein gave a really great presentation of his experiences with Clarence Snyder. It was a warm and genuine expression of history. Glenn Chesnut, the lead speaker, was very explicit in his topic of writing about AA history. He and I had exchanged some "shaggy dog" stories over the last several years and the chance to meet him in person (as well as the others) was a personally fulfilling experience since we both shared a friendship with Nancy Olson [who founded the AAHistoryLovers]. There was also a good panel presentation given mainly by "Shaky Mike" Gwirtz from the Philadelphia area and a fellow named "BJ' concerning Fitz Mayo and Jim Burwell who were responsible for getting AA going in eastern PA and MD. Bill Lash taped all of the conference except for a sharing from an old-timer, Chet H., who didn't want to be taped. Good lunch provided and enough coffee and donuts for an army! Personally, I was almost overwhelmed with the entire event and it's hard to "whelm" me! Al Welch IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3709. . . . . . . . . . . . 2005 Brown University Visit From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2006 8:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Brown University visit October, 2005. http://library.brown.edu/search/?searchtype=Xandsearcharg=clarence+sny derandsearchsc\ ope=7andSORT=Aandextended=0andSUBMIT=Searchandsearchlimits=andsear chorigarg=Xalcohol [12] might be a starting point for some of the materials as it looks like the links I used in early 2005 have changed.. I spent the better part of the week of Oct. 3, 2005 at Brown University in the John Hay Library reading and looking at AA materials. I went quickly through about 10 large cardboard boxes. Three were related to Dr. Bob and the rest to Clarence Snyder. There were a couple of other boxes - one had the Akron coffee pot in it and the other one some of Dr. Bob's medical items, his wallet with a social security card in it, a baseball signed by Hemsley, and a 1950 folder showing how to form a group. I did not have time to look at the Marty Mann boxes or listen to any of the tapes in the Clarence boxes. Some of the boxes had plastic bags full of correspondence and miscelaneous material not yet catalogued. One man at the library thought Sue sold many of these boxes to Brown U. for a sum in the $100,000 range? Access to the library was no problem. I think once I listed myself as a AA member (I have no other archive credentials) they did not know what to do as the other researchers there were mostly academics writing papers or books. I could only take a pencil and pad in and I had to sign a number of forms to get a copy of one letter (July 7, 1944 about royalties with Clarence's hand written notes in the margins) from GSO to Clarence. Parking is very tough with meters taking a quarter every 15 minutes if one could find a parking space. It takes them 24 hours to get an archive box, but as I had contacted them before I went, they had three boxes ready for me on Monday when I arrived. After I filled out some paperwork and left a photo ID card, as I had to each day, I then had access to one file at a time out of one box at a time. They have TV monitors in all the rooms and I could see some very old valuable books on non-AA matters. http://dl.lib.brown.edu/temperance/ is a site that deals with the temperance pamphlets and they are moving to have more web access to such materials in the future. The library was undergoing personnel changes. I did not meet her, but my primary contact was Tovah Reis. Library personnel indicated no real interest in AA and told me that if someone was interested say in posters or phamplets on alcoholism, then it was their intention to have all availabe materials on the subject from a wide variety of sources with AA only being one of those sources. I asked if they might consider revising their web site description of the Akron coffee pot as the "Holy Grail of AA" amd was amswered with a no. Below are some random observations. I enjoyed the rifts and details over book royalties - Sue asking for Dr. Bob's royalties; Clarence blasting away over Bill's payments; the request for royalties on Living Sober by Barry Leach on March 7, 1982 for $191,416.54 ; Bill receiving a royalty check for $585.70 on 9/30/43 ; Bill not having a royalty agreement until 1963; etc. As I suspected there was little on Dr. Bob which was really the personal purpose of my trip. He did have a celebration put on by others on his 8th year in AA in 1943 which was a grand party for 500 with a 10 piece orchestra, dancing, and cards. I got a real feel for Anne in the materials. She would say "would you like to go all the way with God?" Then she would ask them to kneel and surrender their husband to God. She organized a women's group in 1936. She said to surrender your thoughts, possessions, emotions, relationships, and tongue. Clarence blasted NY for permitting a 2nd AA group to be formed in Little Rock saying it could kill AA. Some non-alcoholics formed a group. Hank blistered Clarence for not selling enough porcelain materials (they were in a ceramic mold business?) because he was "messed up" with AA. There was a Camp in Georgian Bay in the Great Lakes for alcoholics to vacation. A funny telegram on 4/22/40 to GSO said "Please send Rollie Hemsley here immediately 279 East 149 Street" and it had no city listed. A letter saying "Our group has some money and is trying to decide what to do with it." dated 7/20/44. They asked for a discount on books. I'll end with a last unknown source quote "Excessive users of alcohol frequently come from families of poor hereditary stock." Peace. Pete K. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3710. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Is AAWS tightening up restrictions on reprinting? From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2006 1:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Primary Purpose Website of Spartanburg, South Carolina has deleted several readings "by request of AA World Services." Sounds like AAWS is policing the Internet, similar to last year's attack on E-Bay users who were selling AA related literature. john lee pittsburgh --- "Mitchell K." wrote: > I got an e-mail from someone asking if I've heard > that AAWS is pulling > permission to reprint anything they "own." Grapevine > articles, writing > by Bill etc. He said that AAWS alone from now on > will be the sole > source of anything related to AA. > > Anyone hear of this? > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3711. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Clarence did not write program for 1st Internat''l Conf. From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2006 10:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mitchell This is a rather long message that I hope you find informative. It contradicts a number of your assertions. My e-mail statement was "This was all part of Clarence Snyder's claim that the Cleveland Group was the first to use the term 'Alcoholics Anonymous' to describe itself." I made no mention of Clarence writing the program which described Cleveland as "the birthplace of our movement." I simply posited and implied that he had influenced it as part of his claim to primacy of the term "Alcoholics Anonymous." I certainly could be wrong if the program description referred to the state of Ohio in which case it would be quite correct. Your assertion that "Ergo...Clarence was the founder of AA (not Alcoholics Anonymous but the term AA)" strikes me as a form of semantic gymnastics that does little more than elevate the obscure to the level of the irrelevant. You also selectively ignore your own book "How It Worked" which credits the primacy of both the terms "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." to Clarence S. Your claim of Clarence being the "founder" of the term "AA." is sustained by anecdote (known only to you and attributed to Nell Wing) as "evidence." You then bemoan that there is no "evidence or documentation" to sustain whether Clarence claimed to be the first to use the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" to describe the group he founded. You are quite wrong on the latter assertion and quite weak on the former. In the written record, Clarence is given due credit as being the founder of AA in Cleveland and a number of other noteworthy accomplishments. However, portraying him as the "founder of AA" (whether "AA" is an acronym, initials, abbreviation, Fellowship, group or a meeting or whatever) is obfuscation no matter how you may wish to micro-parse or selectively describe the term. It also strikes me as a bit silly. Are the history books supposed to note separate, as you call it, "founders" of the terms "Alcoholics Anonymous group" vs "AA group" or "Alcoholics Anonymous meeting" vs "AA meeting" or "Alcoholics Anonymous literature" vs "AA literature" or "Alcoholics Anonymous member" vs "AA member" ad absurdum. I have no axe to grind against Clarence nor do I place him on an anointed pedestal. Clarence had well documented strengths and shortcomings. I acknowledge both. If that constitutes "resentments, being closed minded and misquoting" then so be it. Perhaps your hyper-sensitivity and bias to anything you deem even remotely critical of Clarence might be due to him being your past sponsor and your inflated veneration of him as demonstrated in your book. Extant documents unambiguously describes Clarence S as confrontational and antagonistic. The legacy of those unremarkable traits of Clarence's seem to have regrettably been passed on to you in the way you all-too-often express yourself in this forum. In addition to his documented antagonistic nature Clarence also touted himself to be the "founder" or "father" of AA. Documented proof is cited later below In your email message, you assert that:(some portions excised): "Clarence also never claimed that the Goldrick Group was the first to use the TERM Alcoholics Anonymous to describe itself. There is NO evidence or documentation ... showing where gatherings of members of the Fellowship called these meetings Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. Clarence called the meeting itself an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting after the book of the same name - he wasn't referring to the Fellowship or the book or the foundation but specifically the MEETING. NOWHERE in the archives ... is there a reference to holding an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting where a bunch of members met to share their experience, strength and hope. You are essentially using the terms "group" and "meeting" synonymously and then trying to draw some major distinction between the two. It doesn't make very much sense other than to manufacture some title for Clarence and strikes me as intellectually dishonest. Let's begin with your book (I'm using the PDF file version) where on pg 140 you wrote (seperate paragraphs are joined by ellipses): "On Wednesday, May 10, 1939, the Clevelander's went to the Oxford Group meeting at T. Henry and Clarace Williams' home. At the end of the meeting, Clarence announced that this would be 'the last time the Cleveland contingent would be down to the Oxford Group as a whole. . He announced the Cleveland Group was going to meet the following night, May 11th. He said, 'We're gonna start our own group in Cleveland.' He told the Akron fellowship, 'This is not gonna be an Oxford Group. It's gonna be known as Alcoholics Anonymous. We're taking the name from the book; and only alcoholics and their families are welcome. Nobody else.' He then told all present where [the new group - the Alcoholics Anonymous meeting - was going to meet.] Clarence announced 'We're gonna meet at 2345 Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights at Al and Grace G.'s home.' ." Then on page 141 you wrote. "On May 11, 1939, one month after the book had been published, a meeting was held. It was a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. It was a meeting held by, and for alcoholics and their families only. Historian, Mary C. Darrah, wrote: . 'In the years 1935-1939, the Oxford meetings provided a group experience for the early alcoholics. A.A. did not meet as a separate group officially named Alcoholics Anonymous until May 1939 at the home of Abby G. in Cleveland.' . Nell Wing 26 stated in an interview with the author: 'Clarence was rightly the first to use the initials, A.A.' She was, however, referring to Clarence's use of the initials 'A.A.' and not to his use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous. . A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the first documented meeting which used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the Oxford Group." In your own writing you assert that both the Cleveland "group" and "meeting" (terms which you appear to use interchangeably) were the first to use the term "Alcoholics Anonymous." Yet your e-mail message only mentions the claim that Clarence was the first to use the term/initials "A.A." In this latter regard, it strikes me as unconvincing that Nell Wing (in the reputed exclusive revelation made only to you) is being portrayed as so authoritative on the matter of Clarence being the first to use the "initials A.A." Nell Wing did not start employment (as a typist) in the NY office until March 1947 nearly 8 years after the Cleveland group started. The term/initials "A.A." was ubiquitous at that time. The term/initials "A.A." was also used repeatedly in the March 1941 Jack Alexander Saturday Evening Post article to describe both the members of the Fellowship and the Fellowship as a whole. It's also interesting that you cite Mary C Darrah. She wrote in "Sister Ignatia" (pg 35): "In May 1939, the book Alcoholics anonymous was finally published. At the same time, debate in Akron over allegiance to the Oxford Group escalated into open hostility. With the newly published book for a base, the angry Clevelanders left T Henry's home and organized their own group in Cleveland, far removed from the Buchmanites . Led by Clarence S, they called themselves 'Alcoholics Anonymous' taking their name from the title of the newly published book. They held their first meeting of the newly named Alcoholics Anonymous group on May 18, 1939, at the Cleveland Heights home of Abby G. When attendance was recorded, sixteen members were officially present. Thus the first group to officially call itself Alcoholics Anonymous convened in Cleveland, Ohio." Darrah also wrote (pg 164): "Ignatia already knew that in 1939 Clevelanders had openly refused to attend Akron meetings, in part because of religious confusion over the Oxford Group. Clarence S, one of the Cleveland leaders who led the exodus from Akron and convened the first Cleveland meeting, boldly called himself 'the Father of Alcoholics Anonymous.' Shortly after beginning the first Cleveland group, Clarence persuaded Elrick B Davis, a Cleveland Plain Dealer reporter, to write a series of six editorials ." In "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" (pg 164) it states: "Clarence said, 'I made the announcement at the Oxford Group that this was the last time the Cleveland bunch was down as a contingent - that we were starting a group in Cleveland that would be only be open to alcoholics and their families. Also that we were taking the name from the book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' ." In the soft cover version of "Not God" (pg 78) it states: "Meanwhile, the multilith draft of the text of Alcoholic's [sic] Anonymous had been circulating among the Akronites, and by mid-April of 1939 the first printed copies became available. Clarence at once borrowed from the title of the draft the name by which he began to refer to his group. This was not "the alcoholic squadron of the Oxford Group" but "Alcoholics Anonymous," apparently the first clear use of the term as a specific and exclusive named The mere change of name did little to allay Catholic suspicion, but the availability of a written and published program afforded another option. At the Williams's home on Wednesday, 10 May 1939, Clarence - with the approval of his traveling companions - announced that this would be their last visit to the Akron meeting. On the next evening, interested alcoholics were invited to a new meeting to be held each week in Cleveland at the home of Abby 6., the most recently sober of the visitors. This would be a meeting, Clarence declared, of "Alcoholics Anonymous." In the Bibliography of "Not God" pg 418 it states: "For a time especially in the 1950s, some who were upset with developments within A.A. proclaimed Clarence S. to be the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous ." In "Pass It On" pg 202 it states: "Bill always said more than 100 titles were considered for the book. The title that appeared on the Multilithed copies was 'Alcoholics Anonymous." There is some dispute about who first thought up this title; most thought is was Joe W, a New Yorker writer who remained sober only 'on and off." That was Bill's recollection, and he believed that the name first appeared in their discussions in October 1938. (*) The first documented use of the name in the A.A. archives is in a letter from Bill to Willard Richardson dated July 15, 1938. It is an invitation to Messrs. Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller Foundation, Bill W to come to any of the Clinton Street meetings. 'Certainly in the cases of you gentlemen' Bill wrote 'we shall gladly waive the heavy drinking that has qualified us for Alcoholics Anonymous. We think you are one of us, and there are no honorary members." There, the name was used in such a way as to indicate that Richardson was already familiar with it. (*) this is contradicted in a 1938 letter from Bill W to Dr Bob cited later below. According to a letter dated July 18, 1938, from Dr Richards of Johns Hopkins, Bill, at that time, was using 'Alcoholics Anonymous' both as the working title of the book and as the name of the Fellowship." In "Pass It On" pg 203 it states: "The title of the book quickly became the name of the Fellowship, although debate continues about where and how the name was first used by a group. Oldtimer Clarence S. stated that the Cleveland group he founded in May 1939 was actually the first grozp to use the name "Alcoholics Anonymous." Whatever the individual groups called themselves (usually Just "meetings"), the name certainly was used earlier than that to describe the Fellowship as a whole." [It goes on to mention the Foreword to the 1st edition of the Big Book where the term is used twice to describe the name of the Fellowship as a whole]. In "Pass It On" pg 224 it states: "Publicity at the local level also proved effective. In the autumn of 1938, Clarence S. (who had started a group in Cleveland in May of that year) persuaded a writer named Elrick B. Davis to do a series of newspaper articles about A.A. Published in the Cleveland Plain Dealer, they were run in a prominent space and were supported with pro-A.A. editorials. As Bill described the series: 'In effect the Plain Dealer was saying, 'Alcoholics Anonymous is good, and it works. Come and get it.' Hundreds did; by the following year, the city had 20 to 30 groups and several hundred members. Said Bill, 'Their results were . so good, and A.A.'s membership elsewhere ... so small, that many a Clevelander really thought A.A. had started there in the first place' ..." In "Pass It On" pg 257 it states: "This was not the first controversy with which Clarence had been involved; one A.A. historian has described Clarence as an 'abrasive' personality." In "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" pgs 270-271 it states: "By 1942, Bill was not in such favor with Clarence and his faction in Cleveland as in earlier days. In the years to come, there were further clashes, over finances, policy, the start of the A.A. General Service Conference, and other matters. The criticism was directed more at Bill than at Bob. . 'People in New York decided they were it, and we were jealous,' said Oscar W. "Bob wasn't that way. He had a marvelous nature. I don't know why we had that built-in animosity. Clarence didn't like Bill and would cuss him out, so you can see my animosity came secondhand,' Oscar said. 'If anything bad came out of New York, I blamed Dill. I had to blame someone' ." In Bob P's aborted (by the Conference) manuscript of a history of AA from 1955 to 1985 it states: "The members of the new Cleveland group were uncertain what to call themselves and discussed several suggested names. "None of them seemed fitting," remembered Abby C, (sic) "so we began to refer to ourselves as 'Alcoholics Anonymous' after the title of the Big Book." On this tenuous fact Clarence S based a lifelong claim that he was, in reality, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He became perhaps the most controversial character in AA He turned against Bill and aroused the Cleveland contingent to accuse Bill and Dr Bob of 'getting rich' off the Big Book and the generosity of Mr. Rockefeller - which they had to disprove with a certified audit of their financial affairs. Clarence tried to organize a nationwide revolt against the Conference idea and threatened, unsuccessfully, to secede. He criticized Bill and the 'New York office' vitriolically at every opportunity. Bill steadfastly refused to hold a grudge against him and in their correspondence 'used soft words to turn away wrath.' Much later, when they met at the International Convention in Toronto, they actually spent several hours together, reminiscing. However, Clarence, a popular speaker on the Steps and the recovery program, continued to raise hackles wherever he appeared by calling press conferences in which he was photographed full face with his full name, holding the Big Book which he claimed he wrote, and identifying himself as the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He asserted he was not bound by AA's Traditions because they were written later - and written by Bill. Clarence S moved to Florida in retirement, where he remained extremely active until his death in 1984." Bob P also wrote: "Bill had some underlying reasons for his intense interest in archival matters, beyond that expressed in AA Comes of Age namely, so that 'the basic facts of AA's growth and development never can become distorted.' By 1955, the facts were already being distorted by Clarence S and other oldtimers who were attempting to undermine Bill's place in AA's history. So Bill wanted the records available. Also Bill was visionary; he saw the sweep and scope of the Fellowship he had helped found and foresaw its significance as a social movement to be studied by future historians." Bob P also write: "The choices quickly boiled down to 'The Way Out,' favored by most in Akron, and 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' favored by most in New York. Bill asked Fitz M, who lived near Washington, DC, to check both titles through the library of congress. Fitz wired back to the effect that the Library of Congress had 25 books entitled 'The Way Out,' 12 entitled 'The Way,' and none called 'Alcoholics Anonymous.' That settled the matter. The title of the book quickly became the name of the Fellowship as well. Clarence S later called himself the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, basing his claim on his being the first to use the name for a group. Which he probably was. But the fact is, the book Alcoholics Anonymous was already off the press, and the name had been used a year earlier to refer to the Fellowship as a whole." Other evidence of the use of the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" occurred well-prior to the founding of the first Cleveland group: The GSO archives contains an undated 1938 letter (estimated between April-June and cited in "Not God") in which Bill W informed Dr Bob that he had dictated and mimeographed two chapters of the proposed book. Bill stated that he felt that "the completed book should represent the works of many people; particularly the individual stories." Bill W wrote "My feeling is that Anne should do the one portraying the wife of an alcoholic." Later in the long letter Bill wrote "By the way, you might all be thinking up a good title. Nearly everyone agrees that we should sign the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous." Titles such as Haven, One Hundred Men, Comes the Dawn, etc. have been suggested." Bill also asked Dr Bob "What would you think about the formation of a charitable corporation to be called, let us say, "Alcoholics Anonymous?" (re GSO Archives letter "Alco. Fd." R-28 Bx 59, Not God pgs 74-75, 333). June 15, 1938 - Lois W's recollection of the first use of the term "Alcoholics Anonymous." (re Lois Remembers pg 197) Early 1939 - a prospectus titled "Alcoholics Anonymous" referred to the Fellowship as "Alcoholics Anonymous" prior to publication of the Big Book. It contained the following excerpts which have been joined together and are separated by ellipses: "Many alcoholics are men of exceptional character and will power, as proven by the type of men that make up Alcoholics Anonymous ." "The first step has been the establishment of a trust known as The Alcoholic Foundation. This trust is administered by a board of three well-known business men who are non-alcoholics and by two members of Alcoholics Anonymous.." "The publishing of this book, to be known as "One Hundred Men" is the subject of the attached material ." "(Ten chapters have now been written)". "It is an indisputable fact that over the past four years over one-hundred true alcoholics have recovered, who from the standpoint of medicine and psychiatry, were considered hopeless. These men have dubbed themselves Alcoholics Anonymous ..." "The name Alcoholics Anonymous has been adopted because of the nature of the work, because of the desire to keep away from notoriety, and because the work is strictly non-sectarian." (re copy of Prospectus GSO Archives document - "Alco. Fd." R-28 Bx 59) Contrary to your email message, the above documentation serves to shape the impression I have of Clarence S and it is substantiated by many independent and unambiguous sources. It is a result of study and correlation of evidence - not "resentments, being closed minded and misquoting." Your message might suggest a case of "physician heal thyself." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K. Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:55 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Clarence did not write program for 1st Internat'l Conf. Talk about resentments, being closed minded and misquoting. Clarence had nothing to do with the writing of the program for that event. The Stanley brothers were pretty much in charge. Art says "This was all part of Clarence Snyder's claim..." Again Art - CLARENCE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WRITING OF THE PROGRAM - THE FINAL COPY, THE DRAFT COPY OR THE TENTATIVE COPY! Clarence also never claimed that the Goldrick Group was the first to use the TERM Alcoholics Anonymous to describe itself. There is NO evidence or documentation (maybe there is now, like the so-called loaner stamp on the multilith which was never there before) showing where gatherings of members of the Fellowship called these meetings Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. Clarence called the meeting itself an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting after the book of the same name - he wasn't referring to the Fellowship or the book or the foundation but specifically the MEETING. NOWHERE in the archives (unless it was recently manufactured) is there a reference to holding an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting where a bunch of members met to share their experience, strength and hope. There is also NO evidence showing that Alcoholics Anonymous was ever called AA prior to Clarence using that term. Nell Wing said that Clarence was the first to use the initials AA as a description of Alcoholics Anonymous. Ergo...Clarence was the founder of AA (not Alcoholics Anonymous but the term AA). Cheers Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3712. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Is AAWS tightening up restrictions on reprinting? From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/17/2006 1:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Pulling permission to reprint anything from whom? The sourcing protocol for AAWS has not changed from what's in the AA Service Manual and no 2006 decisions by the AA General Service Board have added any new restrictions. The objections from members of the Fellowship would be immediate, because such decisions bypass the General Service Conference without an expressed emergency need. To generally describe reprint policy, AAWS has a very loose permission agreement for AA members and AA Groups where a simple excerpt needs the source and the phrase "used with permission of AAWS, Inc." Traditions Four and Six still apply. Longer and complete tracks, let's say an entire chapter of Experience, Strength, and Hope or one from the AA Grapevine's Language of the Heart would need a written request for approval from the Boards of the relevant publishing houses (AAWS or Gv). If the reprinting is definitely an intra-AA venture that has no connection to outside enterprise, permission would most likely be granted. I believe that hidden agendas or non-altruistic motives would be seen as reason for reprint denial. Case in point, even though it was 2001: permission to reprint the full AAWS Archives Workbook for review by the 2001 National Archives Workshop attendees was requested but didn't need a formal approval from the General Service Board. In fact, GSO administration staff gave permission over the telephone while mailed letters went back and forth on the activity. Even a Researcher's Card goes before the Trustees Archives Committee if it's necessary to establish the intent of the research activity at GSO's AA Archives, and this has been policy for decades. Nothing has changed to my knowledge. To re-publish an AAWS work for a larger distribution from an 'ouside-AA' publishing entity is something different. Does "IWS" or the "Anonymous Press" come to mind? For another hypothetical example in the copyright world, Penguin Books would be in legal trouble if it published Mitchell's own How It Worked biography without contact first. The copyrights for AAWS and Gv are in effect, and the 'used with pernission' as footnotes to excerpts acknowledges those copyrights. From AAWS or Gv, some reprint activity needs a formal permission request but most don't! Rick T., Illinois . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3713. . . . . . . . . . . . Fair use of copyrighted materials From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2006 12:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The wording of American copyright law makes it sound as though one can copy almost nothing from a work on which someone else has claimed a copyright. But this is not correct. There are all sorts of different kinds of copying which are regarded as "fair use." (This is the technical legal term.) This may be the most complicated part of American law. Those who are concerned should look at the following three discussions of the legal concept of "fair use" of copyrighted materials: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/intellectualProperty/copypol2.htm http://www.copyright.iupui.edu/highered.htm#four There are four "fair use factors" that have to be balanced against one another: 1. What is the character of the use? 2. What is the nature of the work to be used? 3. How much of the work will you use? 4. What effect would this use have on the market for the original or for permissions if the use were widespread? In the case of the first factor: nonprofit, educational, or purely personal use tips the balance towards fair use. Commercial use tips the balance the other direction, that is, makes it more likely that it would be regarded as a copyright violation. In the case of the second factor: copying facts, and (interestingly enough) things that are already published, tips the balance towards fair use. Copying from something that someone else has not yet published tips the balance the other direction. Third factor: the more of the work you copy, the less likely it is to be regarded as fair use. Fourth factor: the balance is tipped towards fair use if the original is out of print or otherwise unavailable, or if the copyright owner is unidentifiable. It is tipped the other way if the copy will be published in a way that will take sales away from the original. What makes it difficult to figure out what is fair use, is that there are four different balance factors at work, and each of them affects the overall balance. So photocopying an entire library book looks bad in terms of Factor 3, because it is the entire book. But as long as it is only for your own personal use, this tips Factor 1 so far in the direction of fair use, that this is regularly regarded as fair use in actual practice. This is why most American libraries have photocopiers in them nowadays, because this kind of use is generally regarded as fair use in actual practice. The important thing is, you can only copy things on the photocopier in the library for your own personal use. You cannot sell these copies to other people. As a college professor, I would make two or three photocopies of selections from one or more of the books in the library, which were going to be required reading for one of my courses, and then put these on reserve, for the students to check out and read. The university librarians and university lawyers said that this was fair use. On the other hand, I could not make a copy for each student in my course and charge the students the price of the photocopying, because that tipped Factor 4 over towards a commercial transaction. A famous court case back in the 1980's against a major national photocopying chain cost them a lot of money when the judge ruled that this practice (in which they had been deeply involved) was copyright infringement. If an AA archives made a photocopy of a rare out of print book to keep on their shelves, this would probably be regarded as fair use, looking at the four factors. But a good many cases are very ambiguous and difficult to decide. A copyright lawyer might well say to you, "On a scale of 1 to 10, I would call that a 7. You can probably do it, and a judge would probably approve it if it went to court. But that would not be a sure thing that you could count on one hundred percent." And part of our problem in AA is that there are sometimes people (usually at the lower level) in the New York GSO who do not really know anything much about American copyright law. They can sometimes become over zealous, and believe that they are "following the strict letter of the law" in telling people they cannot copy something, or that they have to obtain permission to copy something, when in fact many years of appellate cases have established that what they are objecting to is considered "fair use" by every judge in the United States. But lawsuits are expensive, and copyright law is slippery and ambiguous enough that copying something that is even a 7 or 8 on a "fair use" scale of 1 to 10, might not be worth the legal risk. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3714. . . . . . . . . . . . Obituary for Ann R From: George Cleveland . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2006 11:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This from the September 16, NY Times Opinion Page. Appreciations Ann R., Alcoholic Article Tools Sponsored By By MAURA J. CASEY Published: September 16, 2006 Former Gov. Ann Richards of Texas will be remembered for her wit, her one-liners and especially for the keynote speech at the 1988 Democratic Convention, which was, in retrospect, the high point in the party's dismal campaign for the presidency that year. To intrigued television viewers nationwide, Ms. Richards, with her big hair and big attitude, epitomized the kind of formidable woman that is a hallmark of the Lone Star State. People liked her down-home phrases. When she said, "We're gonna tell how the cow ate the cabbage," they believed her. She leavened a plain-spoken manner with wisecracks. Both helped elect her governor two years later. But her political career eclipsed what Ms. Richards called "one of the great, great stories" of her life: her recovery from alcoholism and her nearly 26 years of sobriety. That triumph deserves to be more than a line in her obituary. In so many ways, her decision to stop drinking and enter a rehabilitation program in 1980, after a painful intervention by family and friends, was necessary for her continued rise in public life. What made Ms. Richards different was her decision to be forthright about the fact that she was a recovering alcoholic. She didn't hide it. "I like to tell people that alcoholism is one of my strengths," she said. She was right. Alcoholics know that seeds of healthy recovery grow from the need to mend their own flaws to stay sober, one day at a time. Ms. Richards faced her imperfections fearlessly, and that enabled others to be fearless, too, if only for a little while. She never stopped helping people. One well-known author said the first mail she received after enrolling in a rehabilitation program was an encouraging letter from Ms. Richards. A politician who left rehab and wondered how on earth he was going to avoid drinking when he got home well after midnight found Ms. Richards waiting for him when he arrived. As governor, she started treatment programs in Texas prisons. When she visited, she would tell the inmates the simple truth: "My name's Ann, and I'm an alcoholic." Her imperfection had become a source of inspiration for others. Ann Richards was funny, wise and compassionate. At 73, she died too soon. But she died sober. MAURA J. CASEY IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3715. . . . . . . . . . . . Harper 12 and 12 From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2006 11:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Seeking information on third printing need Harper date converted date does anyone know how many of each Harper was printed? Does anyone know how many Harper AA Comes of Age were printed? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3716. . . . . . . . . . . . When did first AA online groups/meetings begin? From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/20/2006 8:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I am trying to trace the history of online AA, AA online. Individual members no doubt communicated with other members as one way of enhancing their sobriety long before the web, perhaps even in the early days of ARPA-NET. But does anyone have any idea when and where and how the first self-conscious "group" or "meeting" began . . . maybe in "bulletin-board" days? Please, I will appreciate any help on this, via AAHL or directly, if you prefer. Thanks. ernie kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3717. . . . . . . . . . . . How many alcoholics? From: Danny S . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2006 7:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Maybe someone can help me with this. We frequently hear and use the statement that only ten percent of the world population is alcoholic - usually qualified with the inclusion of "estimated" and "professionals". Does anyone know from where these estimates originate and who the "professionals" are who did the estimating? I am looking to validate this statement. Thanks. Peace, Danny Schwarzhoff IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3718. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Brown Visit 2005 From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/19/2006 10:32:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII If you turn right at the street before the John Hay Library and then right at (I think) the next street, there is (or used to be) five-hour parking (I can't recall the names of the streets). I can assure you the pencil-and-pad restriction applies to all researchers (or did when my wife and I were last there). The collections at Brown include the Kirk Collection (put together by Charlie Bishop), the Dr. Bob papers, Clarence papers (put together by Mitch K.), Marty Mann NCA (NCADD) Papers which include material from Yev Gardiner, the Ernie Kurtz papers gathered both before and after he wrote Not-God, and a whole lot of temperance stuff. Tovah is Librarian for the whole Kirk/CAAS [Center for Alcohol and Addiction Studies] and other connected Collections. I believe Brown subscribes to the same anonymity restrictions with regard to their collections as GSO does with regard to theirs (barring the Clarence collection where his own views on anonymity may take preference and of course the Marty Mann NCADD collection, which does not involve her work with AA). The Kirk online location is www.brown.edu/Facilities/University_Library/libs/hay/collections/ kirk/index.html IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3719. . . . . . . . . . . . AA now started in India''s seventh largest city From: robin_foote . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/18/2006 2:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII [AA celebrates its first year in Ahmedabad, the seventh largest city in India. Ahmedabad, with a population of more than 5.2 million, is over on the western side of India in Gujarat, about seventy miles from the seacoast, up near the border with Pakistan. Moderator's note.] Ahmedabad, September 17 (Express India News Service) An year off bubbly, Alcoholics Anonymous drinks to its health They aren't saying hic, hic, hurray, but guess why the Ahmedabad chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is celebrating. AA, a voluntary group that helps alcoholics overcome their addiction, completed one year this month and the chapter held a meeting on Sunday to share their experiences of the past year. It's ironical that the group is thriving in what is known to be ''the driest State of them all.'' AA, which works on the ideology of sharing experiences, strengths and hopes with one another, started with a strength of five members here. Now, there are around 35 members in the group, with members keeping their identity a secret. One of the founding members of the Ahmedabad chapter said their main goal was to help people get over alcohol addiction and that they welcome people from all classes and religions. "We work on the simple principle of being honest to our selves. All Alcoholics Anonymous members take a vow every morning that they will not drink that day and try to adhere to their promise," he added. The members meet twice a week and share their experiences and problems in countering alcoholism. Apart from Ahmedabad, AA also has its chapters in Idar, Vadodara, Surat, Vapi and Daman in Gujarat. Those who are alcoholics and want to overcome the addiction can contact Alcoholics Anonymous' helplines at 98981-05573, 93740-25501, 93746-14245. http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=201658 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3720. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did first AA online groups/meetings begin? From: dhart1@tampabay.rr.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2006 2:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Ernie. There's some good information on the OIAA site. Look to the bottom under the link titled "AA in Cyberspace - Now" by John P. Doug ______________________________ From the moderator, Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana): OIAA is the Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous, see http://aa-intergroup.org/ Excerpts from John P.'s excellent talk are given below. For the transcript of his full talk, see http://aa-intergroup.org/html/cyberspacenow.html "AA in Cyberspace - Now" by John P. (presented June 30, 2000, transcribed from tape) "I am kind of an old-timer on the Internet. In 1968 I was working at the Rand Corporation, doing some research for the Department of Defense. The guys down the hall in Computer Sciences were sending computer output down to the telephone exchange in Santa Monica and back and comparing it with the data they sent across the room .... Two years later, in 1970, we had coast-to-coast hookup .... Today we have about 70 million computers online, and that's a lot." "We think the first contacts between AA members were around 1986. There are more experts on that subject in this room than anywhere else you could find, and some may know an earlier date, but I think it was around there." "By July of 1991, thanks to a couple of pioneers, they started to have regular email meetings on Genie. That was Lamplighters, the first group, which as Jim mentioned has been the largest group as well as the oldest group, followed closely by MOMS. How many Meeting of Minds members do we have out here? (Hands show) It started in Scotland and is almost as old as Lamplighters. It's been meeting on the air 24 hours a day,seven days a week ever since then, serving Alcoholics Anonymous members who wanted to meet for one reason or another." "Some of the meetings are Big Book Meetings, some are step meetings, some discourage off topic discussion, some discourage cross talk, some encourage cross talk, some encourage thread discussion. You may have seen discussions of such things as recovered versus recovering, or should you use medications if you are an AA member; things like that. Some of them have a full list of officers, GSR, Intergroup Reps." "For those who are not aware of it, the Online Intergroup of AA formed after the last International Convention, growing out of the Living Cyber Committee that put up the Hospitality Room." "There's a new online group that I really enjoy called AA History Buffs.** It's just a terrific meeting that has been covering a lot of AA history and I have learned a lot of things that I didn't know." [**From the moderator: That was the ancestor of the AAHistoryLovers, founded in March 2000 by Nancy Olson, see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/ for the old messages. In March 2002, Nancy changed its name to the AAHistoryLovers. Nancy died on March 25, 2005, see her memorial at http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html for an account of her fascinating life.] "Let me give you some categories of people that can't just go down to the church basement .... There are the homebound, including those who are bed-ridden ... there are those with mobility impairments who can't move around very well and can't get to the meeting. There are a lot of members who can't hear well. There's a large number of members who are caregivers and can't leave people in their care who are too young, too old or too ill and the caregivers can't find a substitute who can cover for them. There are shift workers, including shift workers in places where there are only 1 or 2 meetings and those meet while they are working .... There are remotely located people. Once on Lamplighters ... we had one at the North Pole and one at the South Pole. Someone wisecracked that it was a bi-polar group." "Sometimes I think the excessive anonymity that we have in online AA is a problem because people are able to say things online that they probably wouldn't say face to face. That's a problem for us and it's working itself out over time I think. So we still have some arguments and some shootouts and some flames and some threads that you get tired of, and things of that sort. But all in all, the online AA experience is turning out to be a great way to do AA. If there are problems, there are solutions." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3721. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harper 12 and 12 From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/21/2006 4:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi. I believe I have a partial answer to the questions posed. Regarding printing dates there are Two upper case letters printed on the title pages of the Harper publications. The first one relates to the month, "A" being January. B February etc. The second letter being the year, "A" being 1951 (The starting letter in the period of these publications). One letter of the alphabet is not used which I believe is "J" . I have Two Harper printings of the 12 * 12 . The first one has the letters D-C representing April 1953 and the other book has B-K for February 1960. (Using the formula given above). I believe this is the Second printing. The AA Comes of Age book I have has H-G which represents September 1957. I cannot tell you how many were printed but I do know that only Two copies of the Second printing of the 12*12 have come up on eBay in the last Five years. Copies of the 12*12 are obviously much rarer than AA Comes of Age. Do any of the members of this group know if there are any more printings than those I have listed above? In fellowship. Dudley D [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3722. . . . . . . . . . . . book printing and dates From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/22/2006 11:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am seeking information on AA and AlAnon books to include printings and dates. If anyone out there has this information or knows someone who could help me compile the remaining data I am assembling for a pamphlet I would appreciate you contacting me at nov85@graceba.net (nov85 at graceba.net) Thanks and God bless. John Wikelius 301 North Rawls Street Enterprise, Alabama 36330 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3723. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How many alcoholics? From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/23/2006 9:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here are some numbers that were in AA History Lovers last year: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2310 http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/press/2004/NESARCNews.htm#chart Alcohol Abuse (but not Dependent) 1992 3.0% 5.6 Million 2002 4.7% 9.7 Million Alcohol Dependent 1992 4.4% 8.2 Million 2002 3.8% 7.9 Million Total Abuse or Dependent 1992 7.4% 13.8 Million 2002 8.5% 17.6 Million They surveyed unincarcerated adult civilians in the United States The analysis was based on definitions in DSM-IV by American Psychiatric Association. Survey was conducted by US Census Bureau in 1992 and was repeated as much the same as possible in 2002. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3031 Read these posts and the related link for more information. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3724. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Harper 12 and 12 From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2006 1:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII there is a third printing that was listed on ebay about ten years ago. The ad showed the Harper cover and printing page. I do not recall the letters displayed. I bid on it but did not have enough money to stay in the running for the book. If I had known the significance of a third printing I would have tried harder to get the item for my archive collection. I believe Harper only printed one run of AA Comes of Age. Does anyone know if this is true. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3725. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did first AA online groups/meetings begin? From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2006 7:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks, Doug -- and to all who replied to my query, here or privately. I think I already knew it, but you have again demonstrated that this is really a great group with a lot of generous people! I am grateful to all of you and especially to Glenn and Art who put so much loving effort into it. ernie kurtz dhart1@tampabay.rr.com wrote: > Hi Ernie. > > There's some good information on the OIAA site. > Look to the bottom under the link titled "AA in > Cyberspace - Now" by John P. > > Doug IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3726. . . . . . . . . . . . Big Book authors From: Boston Bid . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/24/2006 7:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there already a list somewhere of all of the personal stories and the names of their authors??? I have been writing the names in my copy of ESH as I go along, but it is a painstaking process.. and I suddenly realised that I am sure that somewhere on this site will be a history buff who already has this down on a Word of Excel document. Is there anyone offering...? Thanks!!! George Smith, Boston (new to the group) ______________________________ From the moderator: One excellent place to find a lot of information of this sort is the site for the West Baltimore Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, which is maintained by Al W., and can be found at http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/index.htm There is a list of all the AA historical information on this site (a general Table of Contents) at http://www.a-1associates.com/sitemap.html The specific material you are asking for is found in the "Biographies of the Authors of the Stories in the Big Book" which is at http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm These short biographies were written by Nancy Olson, who founded our AAHistoryLovers web group, and served as its moderator until her death. There is also a list of names of people and details about events in the Big Book, listed by page number, which is located at http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BB-Who-What.htm Also, because people tend to forget, if you go to the AAHistoryLovers Message Board at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages there is a little box at the top where you can search our past messages for a particular name or word. This is not a perfect search engine -- it will not find every instance -- but it is a good idea to do a search here before sending a question in. A lot of the time, it will turn out that the answer was already posted at some point in the past. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3727. . . . . . . . . . . . Counting Members 1993 vs 2006 From: mbrandfssr . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/25/2006 8:26:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I saw this on AA History Buffs "GSO changed the way membership counts were calculated after 1993." Can anyone offer insight into the change? I was at an AA function last month where a guy made slight reference to this and claimed our membership is probably more like 600,000-700,000 in the US IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3728. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book authors From: james.bliss@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2006 2:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From James Bliss and Mike Brewer: two other online sources. ______ From: james.bliss@comcast.net (james.bliss at comcast.net) In addition to what the moderator provided, there is a list at: http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html ______ From: Mike Brewer (tuswecaoyate at yahoo.com) http://www.barefootsworld.net/origbbstories.html#authors_om will answer your question quite thoroughly. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3729. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Big Book authors From: jakewaddell@juno.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2006 3:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII George, I have created a version to index the stories in the various BB editions. It is an Excel spreadsheet which requires a version of Excel "new" enough to support multiple worksheets. For those whose computers cannot open this, I can also send people a stripped down version (only one worksheet). The "actual" list is on the Master worksheet; all other sheets are formulae that read from Master...... If anyone is interested, I've also got a MS Word document that contains brief biographies of most of the authors -- all the text is on the HistoryLovers site -- I've just consolidated it. If any would like a copy, please contact me directly at: jakewaddell@juno.com (jakewaddell at juno.com) (Please do not send your request to the AAHistoryLovers address, because it does not have a "forwarding" button.) -Jake- IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3730. . . . . . . . . . . . "Spiritual kindergarten" passage From: Mike . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/26/2006 8:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On page 95 of "As Bill Sees It," Bill W. talks of us "operating a spiritual kindergarten." The note at the bottom says that this came from a letter which he wrote in 1954. Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the whole letter from which this short excertp has been taken? thank you Mike Cullen IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3731. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: When did first AA online groups/meetings begin? From: Charles Grotts . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2006 12:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As mentioned in Message 3720, the first group was the Lamplighters in 1991. An article on "The History of the Lamplighters Group of Alcoholics Anonymous" can be found at: http://aa-lamplighters.org/public/history.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3732. . . . . . . . . . . . texas prayer From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2006 5:17:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From message # 590: "Larry J. of Houston, wrote 'The Texas Prayer,' used to open AA meetings in Texas. He is also said to have written the 'Texas Preamble.'" Does anyone know what this prayer says or where I can find a copy? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3733. . . . . . . . . . . . The mile long list From: Teemu . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2006 8:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, In the 12x12 Bill W. wrote: "A member gives us a vivid glimpse of those days. "At one time," he says, "every A.A. group had many membership rules. Everybody was scared witless that something or somebody would capsize the boat and dump us all back into the drink. Our Foundation office asked each group to send in its list of 'protective' regulations. The total list was a mile long. If all those rules had been in effect everywhere, nobody could have possibly joined A.A. at all, so great was the sum of our anxiety and fear." Does anyone have this list of `protective' regulations? Or is it on the Internet (a link) or can anyone send it to me privately? Thank you in advance. Have a great day. Teemu Valmari Jyvaskyla, Finland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3734. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Spiritual kindergarten" passage From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2006 12:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The kindergarten theme is something Bill used in different pieces of correspondence. In a letter to Clarence Snyder dated November 9, 1955 Bill wrote "After all, A.A. is a sort of kindergarten - It's something we go through to a better way of life and wider usefullness." --- Mike wrote: > On page 95 of "As Bill Sees It," Bill W. talks of > us "operating a spiritual kindergarten." > > The note at the bottom says that this came from a > letter which he wrote in 1954. > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the > whole > letter from which this short excertp has been taken? > > thank you > > Mike Cullen > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3735. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Spiritual kindergarten" passage From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2006 9:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Shakey Mike and George Cleveland. The original question was from Mike Cullen (mcullen at shaw.ca): On page 95 of "As Bill Sees It," Bill W. talks of us "operating a spiritual kindergarten." The note at the bottom says that this came from a letter which he wrote in 1954. Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the whole letter from which this short excertp has been taken? thank you Mike Cullen ___________________________________ From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) I think I would try GSO Archives in NY. Shakey Mike ___________________________________ From: george cleveland (pauguspass at yahoo.com) The Spiritual Kindergarten concept comes up beautifully in a Grapevine essay that Bill wrote in the June 1958 issue. This essay, along with the January '58 piece on Emotional Sobriety, continue to have tremendous resonance for me. Both essays are in Language of the Heart and online from The Grapevine. Through lack of disciplined attention and sometimes through lack of the right kind of faith, many of us keep ourselves year after year in the rather easy spiritual kindergarten I've just described. George Cleveland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3736. . . . . . . . . . . . Richmond Walker From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 8:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have come across a 24 Hours a Day volume that lists Richmond Walker as author in two places. I understood that he did not want to be listed hence the statement in most of the volumes have "Compiled by a member of the Group at Daytona Beach, Fla." usually at the very end of the book. This volume has "Richmond Walker" on the title page and "Editor's note: This book was compiled by Richmond Walker (1892-1965) of the Group at Daytona Beach, Florida." on the copyright page. No publishing date is given. Since Walker appeared to not want his name in the book, I am wondering if any list member has information on why Hazelden felt the need to put it in now? Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3737. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Spiritual kindergarten" passage From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2006 5:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mitchell K. wrote: The kindergarten theme is something Bill used in different pieces of correspondence. In a letter to Clarence Snyder dated November 9, 1955 Bill wrote "After all, A.A. is a sort of kindergarten - It's something we go through to a better way of life and wider usefullness." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) _________________________________________ One of the interesting things about Wilson's writing is his use of catch-phrases which were current at the time, but used (by Wilson) in a completely different way. I was reading a biography of Edwin Arlington Robinson recently and was surprised to find the expression "spiritual kindergarten" in something he wrote. A critic had remarked that Robinson's poetry was extememly pessimistic and that he seemed to see the world as a "prison-house." Robinson sent in a response that he did not see the world as a prison-house, but as "a kind of spiritual kindergarten where milllions of bewildered infants are trying to spell God with the wrong blocks." I'm sure that made everyone feel better. The way Robinson used the phrase suggests to me that his version was an original invention. Bill Wilson certainly put a nicer spin on it, though. Cora IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3738. . . . . . . . . . . . Multilith copies marked Loan Copy From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/27/2006 9:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII With so many new AAHL's out there, I would like to know if any have seen a multilith copy (pre-production) of the book Alcoholics Anonymous stamped "loan copy." I have heard that they may exist but I have never seen one. YIS, Shakey Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3739. . . . . . . . . . . . List of Chairmen of the Board of Trustees? From: khemex@comcast.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 5:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi group! I've been a member of this group for quite a while and I can usually find the historical data that I'm looking for through the usual channels but this time I've got to ask for help. Where can I find a list of all of the chairmen of the Board of Trustees for AA and its predecessor the Alcoholic Foundation. I've e-mailed GSO and haven't gotten any acknowledgement. Thanks for your help! In Love and Service to Others Gerry W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3740. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Counting Members 1993 vs 2006 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2006 11:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Historic group and membership count data can be found in two primary sources of record. The first is a May 1953 Grapevine article titled "How Many AAs." It offers estimates of worldwide membership counts from 1935 thru 1953. There are many caveats in the Grapevine article explaining both the derivation of the numbers and their interpretation. Group and membership count data began to be reported in the final reports of the General Service Conferences from 1954 on. The counts apply to the prior year of the Conference report and are typically dated as of January 1 of the current year. In past years the data were dated as of April of the current year which further complicates year-by-year comparisons. The count data are also reported in the Grapevine and Box 459. These data are dependent on groups submitting new group information forms and group information change forms to their respective General Service Offices. The US/Canada GSO consolidates this information for annual reporting to the Conference and Fellowship. The data reported in the May 1953 Grapevine article and Conference reports must be interpreted very carefully, very skeptically and in proper context. Group counts include only those groups asking the GSOs to be listed (thousands do not). Groups may or may not report membership estimates or update estimates over time. Members can be counted in multiple group estimates and the composition of the numbers has changed at various points in time from "reported" to "estimated." All too often these data are interpreted as being precise and they are not - they are "best guesstimates." Between the period of 1955 to 1981, GSO included a statement in the reported counts giving an "estimated" count of membership which was typically 3 to 4 times higher than the so-called "reported" numbers. No information is provided on where these "estimates" came from. Their validity and precision appear to be dubious and I'd caution against taking them too literally. GSO abandoned the practice of offering "estimates" from 1982 on. Also from the period of 1951 to 1984 group and membership counts were reported for Hospitals. GSO stopped reporting this category of counts as of 1985. For purposes of conducting a census, the definition of what is an AA Group should be pretty straightforward. But you'd be surprised by how much of an issue it was in the past for the Conference to come up with a definition of what is an AA Group that could be put into AA literature. What first gave rise to this was the AA Directory (it's basically a phone book that lists all the groups in a certain part of the country/world). In the 1960s complications arose over what groups and count data to list in the directory because of the emergence of groups that became involved with problems other than alcohol and conducted so-called "alcohol and pill" meetings. There were also groups that were men only, women only, physicians only, lawyers only, etc., etc. On top of that, there were groups that were essentially merging with Al-Anon and conducting so-called "Family" or "Family After" meetings. The winnowing of the group data removed "alcohol and pill" and "Family" meetings" among others. For a period of time AA literature (specifically "The AA Group" pamphlet) suggested subdividing AA into the categories of "groups, " "meetings" and "gatherings." If a group was in line with Tradition 3 (long form) then it got called a "group." If it went off into other areas it was labeled a "meeting" and not counted as a group. And if it was really out in left field it was called a "gathering." Needless to say, many AA members were not very enthusiastic about those types of classifications and wanted more clarity in the definition of what an AA group is. This gave rise to something called the "6-point definition of an AA group." The 6-point definition was replaced by a 1990 decision of the General Service Conference that defined an AA group with the long form of Traditions 3 and 5. Then in 1991 the Conference approved a definition that consists of the long form of Tradition 3 and "Warranty 6" of Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter (which is also a part of Concept 12). From 1992 to 1994, overseas count estimates were revised and a major revision occurred in the US/Canada GSO's counting methods and record system. The number of groups reported no longer included those described as "meetings" which chose not to be considered "groups." Such "meetings" (typically special interest) are included in prior year's data and inflate that data. The 1992-1994 revisions can erroneously be interpreted as a steep drop from 1993 to 1994 membership and groups when, in fact, it simply reflects a procedural change in counting methods. The doom and gloom crowd of AA often erroneously refer to these counts as a drop in AA membership (which might give a hint as to the inadequacy of the research methods that sustain their negativity). AA is in more than 180 countries (with 57 autonomous GSOs overseas). Each year, the US/Canada GSO attempts to contact overseas GSOs and groups requesting to be listed in their records. From the beginning, the count numbers are at best, "fuzzy" and likely understated and do need to be interpreted prudently to avoid drawing erroneous conclusions. GSO cautions that the information they report "does not represent an actual count of those who consider themselves AA members." The autonomous and anonymous characteristics of AA groups make the derivation of accurate and complete counts a difficult matter to say the least. The data reported are not an accurate measure of a specific year's increase or decrease. However, trends over the decades are indicative (but not exact) of AA groups reaching more places and more AA members achieving recovery. The 2006 final Conference report offered an estimate of 1,068,761 members for the US, 110,449 members for Canada, 702,769 members overseas and 65,843 members in prison groups for a total of 1,947,662 worldwide. Because of the thousands of groups that do not register with GSO and/or update their membership estimates, my sense would be that the US numbers reported by GSO are likely understated rather than overstated. To help put some things in a different perspective regarding counts, a 2006 issue (number 16) of the National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH) report carries an article titled "Alcohol Dependence or Abuse: 2002, 2003 and 2004." One of its major findings is that "Among persons aged 12 or older, 7.6 percent (18.2 million) met the criteria for alcohol dependence or abuse in the past year." Even though AA may have a worldwide membership "guesstimated" at almost 2 million, in the United States alone there are over 18 million persons that would benefit from hearing the message of recovery that AA carries. There appears to be much work left to do. That 18+ million number would probably be a far more useful one to cite at AA functions. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mbrandfssr Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:27 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Counting Members 1993 vs 2006 I saw this on AA History Buffs "GSO changed the way membership counts were calculated after 1993." Can anyone offer insight into the change? I was at an AA function last month where a guy made slight reference to this and claimed our membership is probably more like 600,000-700,000 in the US Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3741. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Texas prayer From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2006 12:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Cheryl I've been doing research for about 2 years to assemble material to write a history of how AA started in Fort Worth and Dallas, Texas (I live in this locale). In late January and early February 1940, The Houston Press ran a series of 6 articles about AA. They were written anonymously by Larry J. Larry had never attended an AA meeting and had set out from Cleveland, OH by train to live and work in Houston. While reading the Big Book on the train he experienced a spiritual awakening. Larry had been rescued (quite literally) by his sponsor Clarence S, founder of Cleveland AA. Shortly after the articles were published, Larry was joined by Roy Y. They started AA in Texas with nothing to guide them other than the Big Book and corresponding with the NY office. In April 1940, the 6 Houston Press articles were published as AA's 1st pamphlet. Larry did write a prayer but I have found nothing beyond anecdotal assertions of it being called "The Texas Prayer" or it being used by other groups. Likewise, I doubt that Larry is the author of the so-called "Texas Preamble." Larry's story has a sad ending. He was at odds with the early Houston members because they formed a steering committee to replace him as a bit of a heavy-handed founding leader of the Houston group. Larry was resentful over the matter and never quite fully reconciled with the members after that. He returned to drinking and IV drug use. Fort Worth was the second group founded in Texas, followed by Dallas. The earliest verifiable usage I have found of what is called "The Texas Preamble" comes from the archives of Group #1 in Fort Worth (today the Harbor Group). It's in a May 1946 document titled "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS OF FORT WORTH, TEXAS, INC. GROUP ONE REGULAR PREFACE TO MEETINGS." The so-called "Texas Preamble" seems to be far more a product of myth than fact in terms of who authored it and where it actually originated. It has been attributed to a variety of sources including early Dallas members (among them Esther E, Olin L and Searcy W) and also to Larry J but that is only anecdotally sustained and I don't consider it to be factual. There is an old adage that "success has many parents and failure is an orphan" and I think this applies to the myth that surrounds "The Texas Preamble." There are variants of this "preamble" or "preface" all over the US. From the bits and pieces of info I've been finding, I'd attribute the substance of the preamble to the pioneering mid-West groups (Akron and Cleveland). A section of the preamble is taken verbatim from the Akron Manual. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cheryl F Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:18 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] texas prayer From message # 590: "Larry J. of Houston, wrote 'The Texas Prayer,' used to open AA meetings in Texas. He is also said to have written the 'Texas Preamble.'" Does anyone know what this prayer says or where I can find a copy? Grateful so I serve, Cheryl F [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3742. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Multilith copies marked Loan Copy From: tuswecaoyate . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 11:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Shakey1aa@... wrote: > > With so many new AAHL's out there, I would like to know > if any have seen a multilith copy (pre-production) of > the book Alcoholics Anonymous stamped "loan copy." > > I have heard that they may exist but I have never seen > one. > > YIS, > Shakey Mike > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > I have a copy reproduced from Clarence Snyder's copy, of which there were quite a few made, and there are no stamps on any of the pages. Most references I have seen about the "loan copy" story, including Susan Window's affidavit, dismiss it as a fabrication. Later, Mike IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3743. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Counting Members 1993 vs 2006 From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2006 10:43:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Art's very thorough reply in item 3740 gave reasons why groups might be undercounted. This included changes in how various types of groups, meetings, and gatherrings were and were not counted at various times. A significant cause of undercounting was that not all groups chose to be registered with GSO. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3740 Besides those reasons for groups not being registered with GSO, I add intergroups. In some cities, most AA services are provided by an intergroup or central office. Groups make sure they are known to the intergroup because that's what it takes to be on the local meeting list. Many members and groups are not aware that there is NO connection between registering with an intergroup and being known to GSO. The general service structure of districts and delegate areas may be unknown in some places. Or some groups stay out of what they call the "politics" of districts and areas. If they don't have a GSR then they don't have a voice in the overall policies of Alcoholics Anonymous and that's just fine with them. The uncounted groups are offset to a small extent by groups that are counted more than once. The old group records systems at GSO only allowed one meeting place for a group. If one real home group met in a church on Monday and a firehouse on Wednesday and a school on Friday and a different church on Saturday, they had to have four different Group Serial Numbers for all of those to be listed. Sometimes they added a suffix to their group name and sometimes they just gave up fighting the records-keepers and used a totally different name for each location. So one home group and, perhaps, its members would be counted more than once. The new "Delegate Area Application" is a "relational database" and has provision for one group to list multiple meeting places. Transition started in 2003. However, that provision is not widely used. Groups already listed under multiple names are unlikely to change. Using that feature is inconvenient and is not even understood by some area registrars. The New Group Registration Form still does not provide for a group to register with more than one meeting location. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3744. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: List of Chairmen of the Board of Trustees? From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2006 1:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Gerry As an item of trivia the titles used at the beginning of the Alcoholic Foundation Board were "President" and "Vice President." In 1955, the General Service Board adopted the practice of using the titles "Chairman" and "Vice Chairman" instead of "President" and "Vice President." So if any members out there ever dreamed of being "the president of AA" the opportunity existed for 20 years and you missed it (rule #62). The first two Alcoholic Foundation Board Chairs were alcoholics: 08/38 to 02/39 - William "Bill" R. Returned to drinking and had to resign. (1) 04/39 to 12/39 - Harry B. Also returned to drinking and had to resign. (2) Following Harry B the board chair has been a non-alcoholic ever since. 02/40 to 09/41 - Robert Shaw (deceased 9/41). First non-alcoholic chair. 03/42 to 10/50 - Leonard V Harrison. 01/51 to 04/56 - Bernard B Smith. 04/56 to 04/61 - Leonard V Harrison (again). 04/61 to 04/78 - John Norris ("Dr Jack"). 04/78 to 04/82 - Milton Maxwell. 04/82 to 04/88 - Gordon M Patrick. First Canadian to be chair. 04/88 to 04/93 - Michael Alexander. 04/93 to 04/97 - W "Jim" Estelle. 04/97 to 04/01 - Gary A Glynn. 04/01 to 04/05 - Elaine McDowell (nee Johnson). First woman chair. 04/05 to date - Leonard M Blumenthal. (1) Big Book story is "A Business Man's Recovery." (2) Big Book story is "A Different Slant." Misc: (not board chairs but milestones for trustees) 11/41 to 05/44 - Margaret Farrand. First non-alcoholic woman trustee. 04/62 to 01/66 - Mary B. First alcoholic woman trustee. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of khemex@comcast.net Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:33 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] List of Chairmen of the Board of Trustees? Hi group! I've been a member of this group for quite a while and I can usually find the historical data that I'm looking for through the usual channels but this time I've got to ask for help. Where can I find a list of all of the chairmen of the Board of Trustees for AA and its predecessor the Alcoholic Foundation. I've e-mailed GSO and haven't gotten any acknowledgement. Thanks for your help! In Love and Service to Others Gerry W. Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3745. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Richmond Walker From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 11:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Tom, I think Hazelden must have wanted to honor Rich Walker for his work in writing Twenty-Four Hours a Day. I understand that Rich had sold 75 thousand copies on his own and wanted the book to go on after his death. He reportedly offered it to AA World Services but was turned down, so Hazelden took it on around 1954 and then really entered the publishing business in a big way. They have even named a building for Rich. I met Rich's son some years ago. He and the family are very proud of Rich and I think they appreciate the recognition he is getting. I feel it's nice that we can acknowledge what he did for us by producing a meditation book that has helped so many. His book also inspired others to write meditation books, but few have equaled Twenty-Four Hours a Day. Mel Barger Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger mel Mel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Hickcox" To: Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:36 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Richmond Walker > > I have come across a 24 Hours a Day volume that lists Richmond Walker as > author in two places. I understood that he did not want to be listed > hence > the statement in most of the volumes have "Compiled by a member of the > Group at Daytona Beach, Fla." usually at the very end of the book. > > This volume has "Richmond Walker" on the title page and "Editor's > note: This book was compiled by Richmond Walker (1892-1965) of the Group > at Daytona Beach, Florida." on the copyright page. No publishing date is > given. > > Since Walker appeared to not want his name in the book, I am wondering if > any list member has information on why Hazelden felt the need to put it in > now? > > Tommy in Baton Rouge > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3746. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant October Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2006 6:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Oct 1936 - Bill C. a Canadian alkie staying at Bill's house, committed suicide using a gas stove. Oct 1939 - 1st central committee formed in Cleveland; 1st example A.A. rotation. Oct 1942 - 1st issue of Cleveland Central Bulletin is published. Oct 1944 - First non American branch started in Sydney, Australia by Father T V Dunlea and Rex. Oct 1951 - Lasker Award given to AA by American Public Health Assoc. Oct 1951 - Sister Ignatia wrote "Care of Alcoholics - St.Thomas Hospital and A.A. Started Movement Which Swept Country" article in "Hospital Progress" the journal of Catholic Hospital Association. Oct 1954 - The "Alcoholic Foundation" renamed the "General Service Board of A.A." Oct 1958 - Playhouse 90 TV airs "The Days of Wine and Roses". Oct 1, 1941 - Local news reports 1st AA Group in New Haven, CT. Oct 1, 1957 - Book "A.A. Comes of Age" published. Oct 2, 1944 - Marty M. founded National Committee Education Alcoholism, later became National Council on Alcoholism. Oct 3, 1945 - AA Grapevine adopted as national publication of AA. Oct 5-7, 1972 - 2nd World Service meeting held in New York. Oct 5, 1988 - Lois Burnam Wilson died. Oct 6, 1941 - 900 dine at Cleveland dinner for Bill D, AA #3. Oct 8, 1988 - Memorial Service for Lois W at Stepping Stones, NY. Oct. 9-11, 1969 - 1st World Service meeting held in New York with delegates from 14 countries. Oct 10, 1943 - 6 of 1st 9 AA's attend clubhouse anniv. in Toledo. Oct 10, 1970 - Lois reads "Bills Last Message" at annual dinner in NY. Oct 10, 1988 - Lois is buried next to Bill in Manchester, Vermont. Oct 13, 1947 - "The Melbourne Group" held its first meeting in Australia. Oct 14, 1939 - Journal of American Medical Association gives Big Book unfavorable review. Oct 15, 1904 - Marty M, early AA woman, is born in Chicago. Oct 17, 1935 - Ebby T, Bills sponsor, moves in with Bill and Lois. Oct 20, 1928 - Bill wrote promise to Lois in family Bible to quit drinking. By Thanksgiving added second promise. Oct 21, 1939 - Cleveland Plain Dealer begins series of articles on AA of by Elrick Davis. Oct 22, 1963 - E M Jellinek, alcoholism educator and AA friend dies. Oct 24, 1942 - L.A. Times reports AA groups in 14 California cities. Oct 24, 1943 - Wilson's start 1st major A.A. tour, returned Jan 19, 1944. Oct 24, 1973 - Trustee's Archives Committee of AA has its 1st meeting. Oct 28, 1994 - National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence celebrates 50 years. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3747. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Multilith copies marked Loan Copy From: schaberg43 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2006 9:10:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Shakey1aa@... wrote: > > With so many new AAHL's out there, I would like to know > if any have seen a multilith copy (pre-production) of > the book Alcoholics Anonymous stamped "loan copy." > > I have heard that they may exist but I have never seen > one. > > YIS, > Shakey Mike > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > I own Jim Burwell's copy of the Multilith edition (bought at auction from his niece in 2001). Interestingly, the title page has the hand- written notation: "#2 Copy / Dec. 8, 1938". There is not mention anywhere in this copy of it being a 'loan' copy - stamped or otherwise. I was also able to personnaly inspect the multilith copy sold at auction a few years ago - this one being the 'master' copy where all of the suggested corrections and edits to the Big Book were recorded. (NOTE: this copy was clearly NOT the 'printer's' copy since some of the suggestions listed there did not make it into the first edition, first printing of our Book. I remember, for instance, that the New Jersey psychiatrist had suggested that the last line of Dr. Bob's story - Your Heavenly Father will never let you down! - be amended to remove the "Heavenly Father" language.) This copy, being the 'master' office copy, did not have any 'loan' stamp either. I know that there are other copies surviving but these are the only two that I have actually seen. None of the other reports of multilith copies that I have read over the years, by people who have visited archives and private collection, mention a 'loan copy' stamp. Best, Old Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3748. . . . . . . . . . . . Counting Members 1993 vs 2006 and since 1935 From: JOHN e REID . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2006 9:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I agree with Art. It appears that we often understate the massive effect that AA's 12 Steps have had on the world at large. While I do not have the mental capacity to do it again, for current figures, about 10 years ago, I did a time line of the 60 years that the 12 Steps had been in existence. And at the time, I worked it (guestimated-approximated/mathematically) out that up to that time, over 40 million people had had their lives changed as the result of one alcoholic sharing their common problem with another in 1935, and thus changed the course of history. Today every second soapie out of USA and now UK, has some reference to a 12 Step Program. This in its self supports the claim by eminent scholar Huxley who gave Bill W the "handle" as the social architect of the 20th Century. Kind Regards, John R ----- Original Message ----- From: "ArtSheehan" To: Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:03 AM Subject: spam: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Counting Members 1993 vs 2006 > Historic group and membership count data can be found in two primary > sources of record. The first is a May 1953 Grapevine article titled > "How Many AAs." It offers estimates of worldwide membership counts > from 1935 thru 1953. There are many caveats in the Grapevine article > explaining both the derivation of the numbers and their > interpretation. Group and membership count data began to be reported > in the final reports of the General Service Conferences from 1954 on. > The counts apply to the prior year of the Conference report and are > typically dated as of January 1 of the current year. In past years the > data were dated as of April of the current year which further > complicates year-by-year comparisons. The count data are also reported > in the Grapevine and Box 459. These data are dependent on groups > submitting new group information forms and group information change > forms to their respective General Service Offices. The US/Canada GSO > consolidates this information for annual reporting to the Conference > and Fellowship. > > The data reported in the May 1953 Grapevine article and Conference > reports must be interpreted very carefully, very skeptically and in > proper context. Group counts include only those groups asking the GSOs > to be listed (thousands do not). Groups may or may not report > membership estimates or update estimates over time. Members can be > counted in multiple group estimates and the composition of the numbers > has changed at various points in time from "reported" to "estimated." > All too often these data are interpreted as being precise and they are > not - they are "best guesstimates." Between the period of 1955 to > 1981, GSO included a statement in the reported counts giving an > "estimated" count of membership which was typically 3 to 4 times > higher than the so-called "reported" numbers. No information is > provided on where these "estimates" came from. Their validity and > precision appear to be dubious and I'd caution against taking them too > literally. GSO abandoned the practice of offering "estimates" from > 1982 on. Also from the period of 1951 to 1984 group and membership > counts were reported for Hospitals. GSO stopped reporting this > category of counts as of 1985. > > For purposes of conducting a census, the definition of what is an AA > Group should be pretty straightforward. But you'd be surprised by how > much of an issue it was in the past for the Conference to come up with > a definition of what is an AA Group that could be put into AA > literature. What first gave rise to this was the AA Directory (it's > basically a phone book that lists all the groups in a certain part of > the country/world). In the 1960s complications arose over what groups > and count data to list in the directory because of the emergence of > groups that became involved with problems other than alcohol and > conducted so-called "alcohol and pill" meetings. There were also > groups that were men only, women only, physicians only, lawyers only, > etc., etc. On top of that, there were groups that were essentially > merging with Al-Anon and conducting so-called "Family" or "Family > After" meetings. The winnowing of the group data removed "alcohol and > pill" and "Family" meetings" among others. > > For a period of time AA literature (specifically "The AA Group" > pamphlet) suggested subdividing AA into the categories of "groups," > "meetings" and "gatherings." If a group was in line with Tradition 3 > (long form) then it got called a "group." If it went off into other > areas it was labeled a "meeting" and not counted as a group. And if it > was really out in left field it was called a "gathering." Needless to > say, many AA members were not very enthusiastic about those types of > classifications and wanted more clarity in the definition of what an > AA group is. This gave rise to something called the "6-point > definition of an AA group." The 6-point definition was replaced by a > 1990 decision of the General Service Conference that defined an AA > group with the long form of Traditions 3 and 5. Then in 1991 the > Conference approved a definition that consists of the long form of > Tradition 3 and "Warranty 6" of Article 12 of the Permanent Conference > Charter (which is also a part of Concept 12). > > From 1992 to 1994, overseas count estimates were revised and a major > revision occurred in the US/Canada GSO's counting methods and record > system. The number of groups reported no longer included those > described as "meetings" which chose not to be considered "groups." > Such "meetings" (typically special interest) are included in prior > year's data and inflate that data. The 1992-1994 revisions can > erroneously be interpreted as a steep drop from 1993 to 1994 > membership and groups when, in fact, it simply reflects a procedural > change in counting methods. The doom and gloom crowd of AA often > erroneously refer to these counts as a drop in AA membership (which > might give a hint as to the inadequacy of the research methods that > sustain their negativity). > > AA is in more than 180 countries (with 57 autonomous GSOs overseas). > Each year, the US/Canada GSO attempts to contact overseas GSOs and > groups requesting to be listed in their records. From the beginning, > the count numbers are at best, "fuzzy" and likely understated and do > need to be interpreted prudently to avoid drawing erroneous > conclusions. GSO cautions that the information they report "does not > represent an actual count of those who consider themselves AA > members." The autonomous and anonymous characteristics of AA groups > make the derivation of accurate and complete counts a difficult matter > to say the least. The data reported are not an accurate measure of a > specific year's increase or decrease. However, trends over the decades > are indicative (but not exact) of AA groups reaching more places and > more AA members achieving recovery. > > The 2006 final Conference report offered an estimate of 1,068,761 > members for the US, 110,449 members for Canada, 702,769 members > overseas and 65,843 members in prison groups for a total of 1,947,662 > worldwide. Because of the thousands of groups that do not register > with GSO and/or update their membership estimates, my sense would be > that the US numbers reported by GSO are likely understated rather than > overstated. > > To help put some things in a different perspective regarding counts, a > 2006 issue (number 16) of the National Survey on Drug Use and Health > (NSDUH) report carries an article titled "Alcohol Dependence or Abuse: > 2002, 2003 and 2004." One of its major findings is that "Among persons > aged 12 or older, 7.6 percent (18.2 million) met the criteria for > alcohol dependence or abuse in the past year." Even though AA may have > a worldwide membership "guesstimated" at almost 2 million, in the > United States alone there are over 18 million persons that would > benefit from hearing the message of recovery that AA carries. There > appears to be much work left to do. That 18+ million number would > probably be a far more useful one to cite at AA functions. > > Cheers > Arthur > > -----Original Message----- > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mbrandfssr > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:27 AM > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Counting Members 1993 vs 2006 > > > I saw this on AA History Buffs > > "GSO changed the way membership counts were calculated after 1993." > > Can anyone offer insight into the change? I was at an AA function > last month where a guy made slight reference to this and claimed our > membership is probably more like 600,000-700,000 in the US > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3749. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Chairs of the GSB From: Jeff Your . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2006 9:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bernard B. Smith ..........................1955-1956 Leonard V. Harrison .....................1956-1961 John 'Jack' Norris.......................... 1961-1977 Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D. ............1977-1981 Gordon M. Patrick ........................1981-1989 Michael Alexander........................ 1989-1993 Jim Estelle..................................... 1993-1997 Gary Glynn ....................................1997-2001 Elaine McDowell, Ph.D................2001-2005 Leonard M. Blumenthal, LL.D.... 2005- This from General Service Board reports 1955-present -- In grateful service, Jeffrey A. Your 216.691.0917 home Alternate Delegate 216.397.4244 work Area 54, Committee 55 216.397.1803 fax Northeast Ohio General Service 216.496.7594 cell [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3750. . . . . . . . . . . . 12 and 12 Search Engine From: Jeff Clymer . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/2/2006 2:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HI, Does anyone know of a 12 and 12 Search Engine? Jc IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3751. . . . . . . . . . . . The new GSO archivist on the chairmen of the trustees From: Filiatreau, Amy . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/1/2006 1:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The question was asked about how to find a list of the chairmen of the Board of Trustees. Amy Filiatreau, the new GSO archivist, sent us this response. From: "Filiatreau, Amy" (filiatreaua at aa.org) Dear Gerry and list, Greetings from the G.S.O. Archives! I hereby inaugurate my first message to this list; I usually just sit back and learn from all of you on this list. I've been fortunate to meet many of you, at least via email. For those of you I haven't yet met, I am the new Archivist for G.S.O., having been on the job since February. I just got back from the Central Office/Intergroup Seminar in Akron, and will be out of the office tomorrow (Monday), but I can email you this list first thing Tuesday. I am sorry you didn't get a response from us in the past. I'm not sure whom you contacted at the G.S.O. with your original request, but you - and all of you - can always email me directly at archives@aa.org (archives at aa.org) and I daresay I can guarantee you will get a response. The most critical thing we do is respond to requests for information from the Fellowship, since we work for you. I hope all of you will call on us anytime we can be of service to you. Thanks! Amy Amy Filiatreau, CA Archivist AA World Services, Inc. 212-870-2568 filiatreaua@aa.org ________________________________ From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of khemex@comcast.net Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:33 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] List of Chairmen of the Board of Trustees? Hi group! I've been a member of this group for quite a while and I can usually find the historical data that I'm looking for through the usual channels but this time I've got to ask for help. Where can I find a list of all of the chairmen of the Board of Trustees for AA and its predecessor the Alcoholic Foundation. I've e-mailed GSO and haven't gotten any acknowledgement. Thanks for your help! In Love and Service to Others Gerry W. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3752. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: List of Chairmen of the Board of Trustees? From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2006 6:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII hi group, Allow me to add two items to the "Misc." postscript and Art's excellent research. Miscellaneous milestone #3, about the AF Board: Earl T. from Chicago replaced Dr. Bob in 1949 and he served the Alcoholic Foundation Board of Trustees until 1953. In 1947 at least once (maybe twice), Earl filled in for Bill, participating on the Board with Bill's proxy. The beautiful perspective about Earl, to me, was that here was a sponsee of Dr. Bob that Bill considered a full equal partner and compatriot when it came to AA World Service. Earl's tenure on the Board may have been nondescript but he served as another Pioneer toward the General Service Conference and the enlargement of the AF "Headquarters (after 1953 formally called the General Service Office)." Earl suffered a stroke in 1954, shortly after returning home to Chicago, where Chicago AA's Policy Committee voted to obtain his services as a paid employee of the Chicago Central Office. Earl's responsibilities were to be Group Coordinator and Public Information. Unfortunately, the Twelve Traditions were manipulated by some Chicago AAs for discussion that Earl's employment was a conflict of interest with Tradition Nine, and additionally that the Policy Committee members had not properly searched for a full consensus. The result? Two Intergroups broke away from the Metropolitan Chicago Delegate Area for the next 19 years. Earl could do very little to repair the rift after his stroke. Miscellaneous milestone #4, yet to happen... Any of us who have the current AAWS Archives Workbook can find a single page in the "Oral Histories" chapter, submitted by my Area to Trustees Archives in 2003. The set of guide questions can be misleading when its header and its intent were not included in the Workbook-- the list was assembled and submitted for the interviewing of Class A (non-alcoholic) Trustees to preserve their stories, either by taping or writing in response to the survey-type list. One particular question "what was involved in your application" is an example of a question that has no real place in a regular personal history. My Area 20 Archives Committee recommended, as part of the Workbook's 2006 review, to at least delete the 'application' question. Otherwise, the set of a baker's dozen questions would work well when interviewing any past Area Delegate, or, a Class A or Class B (AA member) Trustee. In 2003 and 2004, the Trustees Archives Committee took no action on the "Class A Trustee History Project" but the list made it into the Workbook in the 2005 revision. While many Class A Trustees and General Service Board Chairs had occasionally written articles for the AA Grapevine, their service histories and personal perspectives are in danger of getting lost for all time. Chrm.'s Alexander, Estelle, Glynn, and McDowell are still alive but this opportunity to preserve AA history languishes. Yours in fellowship, Rick T., Illinois -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of ArtSheehan Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 12:26 PM Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] List of Chairmen of the Board of Trustees? ... Misc: (not board chairs but milestones for trustees) 11/41 to 05/44 - Margaret Farrand. First non-alcoholic woman trustee. 04/62 to 01/66 - Mary B. First alcoholic woman trustee. ... . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3753. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: Multilith copies marked Loan Copy From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2006 7:48:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I too have examined several (at least 6 - 10) original multiliths over the years and none have had loan copy, review copy or any other such marking on them. I reviewed copies at the NYC Archives with both Frank M and Nell Wing, copies in Arizona, Ohio and one years ago at an archives workshop. I know that Clarence's copy never had such a stamp either. I do believe I saw a copy at Stepping Stones on a few of my visits to see Lois. > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, > Shakey1aa@... wrote: > > > > With so many new AAHL's out there, I would like to > know > > if any have seen a multilith copy > (pre-production) of > > the book Alcoholics Anonymous stamped "loan copy." > > > > > I have heard that they may exist but I have never > seen > > one. > > > > YIS, > > Shakey Mike > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > I own Jim Burwell's copy of the Multilith edition > (bought at auction > from his niece in 2001). Interestingly, the title > page has the hand- > written notation: "#2 Copy / Dec. 8, 1938". > > There is not mention anywhere in this copy of it > being a 'loan' > copy - stamped or otherwise. > > I was also able to personnaly inspect the multilith > copy sold at > auction a few years ago - this one being the > 'master' copy where all > of the suggested corrections and edits to the Big > Book were > recorded. (NOTE: this copy was clearly NOT the > 'printer's' copy > since some of the suggestions listed there did not > make it into the > first edition, first printing of our Book. I > remember, for instance, > that the New Jersey psychiatrist had suggested that > the last line of > Dr. Bob's story - Your Heavenly Father will never > let you down! - be > amended to remove the "Heavenly Father" language.) > This copy, being > the 'master' office copy, did not have any 'loan' > stamp either. > > I know that there are other copies surviving but > these are the only > two that I have actually seen. None of the other > reports of > multilith copies that I have read over the years, by > people who have > visited archives and private collection, mention a > 'loan copy' > stamp. > > Best, > > Old Bill > > > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3754. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant October Dates in A.A. History From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2006 7:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just one correction... October 5, 1941 - The dinner honoring Dr. Bob (not Bill D.) was held at the Hotel Statler in Cleveland. According to the press relears issued by the Cleveland Central Committee, over 850 people from Cleveland and about 16 out of town groups attended. The newspaper had an article stating - "900 Reformed Alcoholics Hold Anonymous Dinner. The list of people who spoke or were introduced from the podium were: Mr. and Mrs. Borton (non-alcoholic hosts of the Borton Group), Grace G. (Abby's wife) Edna McD. (George McD.'s wife) Dorothy Snyder, Anne Smith, Henrietta Seiberling, Wally G. Bill D., Bill Wilson and Doc. Smith (Dr. Bob) According the the Buletin to All Groups (the precursor to the Central Bulletin), Cleveland AA didn't lose any money on the dinner...they even made money.... a whole 90 cents. > Oct 1936 - Bill C. a Canadian alkie staying at > Bill's house, > committed suicide using a gas stove. > Oct 1939 - 1st central committee formed in > Cleveland; 1st example > A.A. rotation. > Oct 1942 - 1st issue of Cleveland Central Bulletin > is published. > Oct 1944 - First non American branch started in > Sydney, Australia by > Father T V Dunlea and Rex. > Oct 1951 - Lasker Award given to AA by American > Public Health Assoc. > Oct 1951 - Sister Ignatia wrote "Care of Alcoholics > - St.Thomas > Hospital and A.A. Started Movement Which Swept > Country" article > in "Hospital Progress" the journal of Catholic > Hospital Association. > Oct 1954 - The "Alcoholic Foundation" renamed the > "General Service > Board of A.A." > Oct 1958 - Playhouse 90 TV airs "The Days of Wine > and Roses". > Oct 1, 1941 - Local news reports 1st AA Group in New > Haven, CT. > Oct 1, 1957 - Book "A.A. Comes of Age" published. > Oct 2, 1944 - Marty M. founded National Committee > Education > Alcoholism, later became National Council on > Alcoholism. > Oct 3, 1945 - AA Grapevine adopted as national > publication of AA. > Oct 5-7, 1972 - 2nd World Service meeting held in > New York. > Oct 5, 1988 - Lois Burnam Wilson died. > Oct 6, 1941 - 900 dine at Cleveland dinner for Bill > D, AA #3. > Oct 8, 1988 - Memorial Service for Lois W at > Stepping Stones, NY. > Oct. 9-11, 1969 - 1st World Service meeting held in > New York with > delegates from 14 countries. > Oct 10, 1943 - 6 of 1st 9 AA's attend clubhouse > anniv. in Toledo. > Oct 10, 1970 - Lois reads "Bills Last Message" at > annual dinner in > NY. > Oct 10, 1988 - Lois is buried next to Bill in > Manchester, Vermont. > Oct 13, 1947 - "The Melbourne Group" held its first > meeting in > Australia. > Oct 14, 1939 - Journal of American Medical > Association gives Big > Book unfavorable review. > Oct 15, 1904 - Marty M, early AA woman, is born in > Chicago. > Oct 17, 1935 - Ebby T, Bills sponsor, moves in with > Bill and Lois. > Oct 20, 1928 - Bill wrote promise to Lois in family > Bible to quit > drinking. By Thanksgiving added second promise. > Oct 21, 1939 - Cleveland Plain Dealer begins series > of articles on > AA of by Elrick Davis. > Oct 22, 1963 - E M Jellinek, alcoholism educator and > AA friend dies. > Oct 24, 1942 - L.A. Times reports AA groups in 14 > California cities. > Oct 24, 1943 - Wilson's start 1st major A.A. tour, > returned Jan 19, > 1944. > Oct 24, 1973 - Trustee's Archives Committee of AA > has its 1st > meeting. > Oct 28, 1994 - National Council on Alcoholism and > Drug Dependence > celebrates 50 years. > > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3755. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: 12 and 12 Search Engine From: William Middleton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/3/2006 11:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jeff: AAWS used to sell a disk with the "12and12" on it. Part of the program was a "search engine." It was not perfect because hyphenated words were missed it the search. I don't have a current literature catalogue, so don't know if it is still available. LOVE in Service! Bill Middleton Jeff Clymer wrote: HI, Does anyone know of a 12 and 12 Search Engine? Jc IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3756. . . . . . . . . . . . Part 1 PIONEERS OF A.A. (pg 169) - "thirty years" ? From: davidgiven . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2006 8:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was unable to find this in the archives of this group. I was recently told that in earlier editions of the big book the line "Today, hundreds of additional A.A. members can be found who have had no relapse for more than thirty years" reads 'fifty years' in some earlier editions. Can someone help me verify this? Thanks, David S IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3757. . . . . . . . . . . . Tradition 11: how about television and the internet? From: Wendy . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2006 8:09:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has there ever been any attempt to change Tradition 11 to include television, the internet, or the like? Thanks in Advance, Wendy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3758. . . . . . . . . . . . The Texas Pamphlet 1940 (Part 1a) From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 7:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Texas Pamphlet: originally written by Larry J. in Houston, Texas, in the form of six articles about AA published in the Houston Press newspaper in late January and early February 1940. In April 1940, these six newspaper articles were published as AA's first pamphlet. For further background information, see AAHistoryLovers Message #3741. ____________________________________ Hi Cheryl, The following is a series of six articles from The Houston Press -- by Larry J. -- April 1940 (the others will follow in seperate posts). Ever Grateful, Jim M, silkworth.net THE FIRST "A.A." PAMPHLET As Derived from The Series of Six Articles from "The Houston Press" by -Larry J.* -April 1940 *Larry J. came to Houston from Cleveland with only a Big Book and a Spiritual Experience resulting from having taken the Steps while hospitalized. His Sponsors were Dr. Bob and Clarence S. He had not attended an A.A. meeting before coming to Houston. ____________________________________ THE TEXAS PAMPHLET (1940) ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS is an informal society of ex-alcoholics who aim to help fellow problem drinkers recover their health. Rapidly growing, now numbering about 8000, our Fellowship is spreading throughout the country. The first member recovered seven years ago. Strong chapters, over one hundred alcoholic men and women each, are to be found in Cleveland, Ohio--Akron, Ohio--New York City. Vigorous beginnings have been made in Los Angeles. Baltimore, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, Washington D. C., St. Louis, and Houston, Texas. We of A.A. believe that two-thirds of our number have already laid the foundation for permanent recovery. More than half of us have had no relapse at all despite the fact we have often been pronounced incurable. This approach to alcoholism is squarely based on our own drinking experience, what we have learned from medicine and psychiatry, and upon certain spiritual principles common to all creeds. We think each man's religious views, if he has any, are his own affair. No member is obliged to conform to anything whatever except to admit that he has the alcoholic illness and that he honestly wishes to be rid of it. While every shade of opinion is expressed among us we take no position as a group, upon controversial questions. We are only trying to aid the sick men and distracted families who want to be at peace. We have found that genuine tolerance of others, coupled with a friendly desire to be of service is most essential to our recovery. There are no dues or fees; our alcoholic work is an avocation. The Alcoholic Foundation of New York is our national headquarters. Your inquiries will be answered if addressed to Post Office Box 658, Church Street Annex, New York City. The Fellowship publishes a book called "Alcoholics Anonymous" setting forth our experience and methods at length. An excellent review of the volume by Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick appears on page 27 of this booklet. Directions for obtaining the book and a detailed description of the Alcoholic Foundation will also be found there. On page 32 physicians will find an excellent medical paper describing our approach. This paper appeared last year in The Journal Lancet (Minneapolis) and was written by Dr. W. D. Silkworth, Chief Physician at the Charles B. Towns Hospital, New York, where our work had its inception five years ago. We can no better present the spirit and purpose of Alcoholics Anonymous than to invite reading of six articles which recently appeared in The Houston Press. These pieces were written by one of our newer members, a newspaperman who, scarcely two years ago, found himself in that shadowy No Man's Land which lies just between Here and Here-after. Due to grave alcoholism and pulmonary trouble, two institutions had refused to admit him--too nearly dead, they thought. Then he found the Cleveland A.A. Fellowship. Now he's on a Texas newspaper! Let Mr. Anonymous of Houston and his editor tell you about it---- AN EDITORIAL (As published by the Houston Press) ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Age-old, but still alive, is the question as to when the drinking of alcoholic beverages ceases to be a social lubricant, an aid to conviviality, a solace to the weary and distressed, a tonic to the body and spirit; and when it becomes a devourer of health, success and happiness. People of independent spirit like to settle the question for themselves. People inclined to reform their neighbors--and even many otherwise reticent people, because they are honestly and generously concerned over the welfare at least of those near to them--sometimes come to the front with suggestions for the control of drinking, or even for its abolition. But neither of these attitudes is the concern of Alcoholics Anonymous, a group of several hundred ex-drinkers who have taken to the wagon by a technique of their own, and who are riding there today after most of them had been pronounced hopeless by friends, families, employers, physicians, ministers, psychiatrists, hospitals and sanitariums. The call themselves true alcoholics--people in whom alcohol becomes a disease for which medical and psychiatric science has not yet found a specific cure. They say their cure works. They show as witness hundreds of lives restored to health and usefulness, hundreds more among their families relieved of terror and despair, and restored to happiness through the alcoholics' changed lives. The Press thinks their problem and their unusual success with it is so important that it begins today a series of six articles on Alcoholics Anonymous, written by "One of Them," now living in Houston. The series should provoke thought among the friends and families of "alcoholics," among physicians and psychiatrists, ministers, social workers, employers, men's and women's clubs--and alcoholics. The Press takes a liberal attitude on drinking. It stood for repeal of prohibition. But even the liquor industry, we believe, would wish success to a technique that promises much to the men and women who cannot handle their drinks. Inquiry and comment are invited. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3759. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant October Dates in A.A. History From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/4/2006 12:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi: Another correction to this.... Lois is buried along with Bill in EAST DORSET, Vermont (Not Manchester ...Oct 10th listing). Les Cole "an old Vermonter" ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitchell K. Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant October Dates in A.A. History Just one correction... October 5, 1941 - The dinner honoring Dr. Bob (not Bill D.) was held at the Hotel Statler in Cleveland. According to the press relears issued by the Cleveland Central Committee, over 850 people from Cleveland and about 16 out of town groups attended. The newspaper had an article stating - "900 Reformed Alcoholics Hold Anonymous Dinner. The list of people who spoke or were introduced from the podium were: Mr. and Mrs. Borton (non-alcoholic hosts of the Borton Group), Grace G. (Abby's wife) Edna McD. (George McD.'s wife) Dorothy Snyder, Anne Smith, Henrietta Seiberling, Wally G. Bill D., Bill Wilson and Doc. Smith (Dr. Bob) According the the Buletin to All Groups (the precursor to the Central Bulletin), Cleveland AA didn't lose any money on the dinner...they even made money.... a whole 90 cents. > Oct 1936 - Bill C. a Canadian alkie staying at > Bill's house, > committed suicide using a gas stove. > Oct 1939 - 1st central committee formed in > Cleveland; 1st example > A.A. rotation. > Oct 1942 - 1st issue of Cleveland Central Bulletin > is published. > Oct 1944 - First non American branch started in > Sydney, Australia by > Father T V Dunlea and Rex. > Oct 1951 - Lasker Award given to AA by American > Public Health Assoc. > Oct 1951 - Sister Ignatia wrote "Care of Alcoholics > - St.Thomas > Hospital and A.A. Started Movement Which Swept > Country" article > in "Hospital Progress" the journal of Catholic > Hospital Association. > Oct 1954 - The "Alcoholic Foundation" renamed the > "General Service > Board of A.A." > Oct 1958 - Playhouse 90 TV airs "The Days of Wine > and Roses". > Oct 1, 1941 - Local news reports 1st AA Group in New > Haven, CT. > Oct 1, 1957 - Book "A.A. Comes of Age" published. > Oct 2, 1944 - Marty M. founded National Committee > Education > Alcoholism, later became National Council on > Alcoholism. > Oct 3, 1945 - AA Grapevine adopted as national > publication of AA. > Oct 5-7, 1972 - 2nd World Service meeting held in > New York. > Oct 5, 1988 - Lois Burnam Wilson died. > Oct 6, 1941 - 900 dine at Cleveland dinner for Bill > D, AA #3. > Oct 8, 1988 - Memorial Service for Lois W at > Stepping Stones, NY. > Oct. 9-11, 1969 - 1st World Service meeting held in > New York with > delegates from 14 countries. > Oct 10, 1943 - 6 of 1st 9 AA's attend clubhouse > anniv. in Toledo. > Oct 10, 1970 - Lois reads "Bills Last Message" at > annual dinner in > NY. > Oct 10, 1988 - Lois is buried next to Bill in > Manchester, Vermont. > Oct 13, 1947 - "The Melbourne Group" held its first > meeting in > Australia. > Oct 14, 1939 - Journal of American Medical > Association gives Big > Book unfavorable review. > Oct 15, 1904 - Marty M, early AA woman, is born in > Chicago. > Oct 17, 1935 - Ebby T, Bills sponsor, moves in with > Bill and Lois. > Oct 20, 1928 - Bill wrote promise to Lois in family > Bible to quit > drinking. By Thanksgiving added second promise. > Oct 21, 1939 - Cleveland Plain Dealer begins series > of articles on > AA of by Elrick Davis. > Oct 22, 1963 - E M Jellinek, alcoholism educator and > AA friend dies. > Oct 24, 1942 - L.A. Times reports AA groups in 14 > California cities. > Oct 24, 1943 - Wilson's start 1st major A.A. tour, > returned Jan 19, > 1944. > Oct 24, 1973 - Trustee's Archives Committee of AA > has its 1st > meeting. > Oct 28, 1994 - National Council on Alcoholism and > Drug Dependence > celebrates 50 years. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3760. . . . . . . . . . . . Texas Preamble From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/28/2006 1:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Does anyone know what this prayer says or where I can find a copy?" Go to: http://a-1associates.com/aa/texas_preamble.htm It has some other links at the bottom tmd __________________________________________________ http://a-1associates.com/aa/texas_preamble.htm Texas Preamble A few months after the Grapevine published the Preamble in June, 1947, Ollie L., Dick F., and Searcy W. decided to beef it up for the drunks in Texas. "We worked on it, passed it around, and agreed on this version, " says Searcy W. "It's now read by groups throughout the state." It works for Searcy. He's been sober 54 years. - February, 2001 Grapevine For all who would be interested in it: Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are powerless over alcohol, and are unable to do anything about it without the help of a Power greater than ourselves. We feel each person's religious convictions, if any, are his own affair, and the simple purpose of the program of AA is to show what may be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves, regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be. In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do to that Power, we must first apply ourselves with some diligence, but repetition confirms and strengthens this habit, then faith comes naturally. We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from a serious disease for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may be the result of an allergic reaction to alcohol which makes it impossible for us to drink in moderation. This condition has never, by any treatment with which we are familiar, been permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute abstinence - a second meaning of AA. There are no dues or fees. The only requirement is an honest desire to stop drinking. Each member is a person with an acknowledged alcoholic problem who has found the key to abstinence from day to day by adhering to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. The moment he resumes drinking he loses all status as a member of AA. His reinstatement is automatic, however, when he again fulfills the sole requirement for membership - an honest desire to quit drinking. Not being reformers we offer our experience only to those who want it. AA is not interested in sobering up drunks who are seeking only temporary sobriety. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and in which we join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are those who will not or cannot lend themselves to this simple program--usually men and women who are incapable of being honest with themselves. You may like this Program or you many not, but the fact remains that is works.. and we believe it is our only chance to recover. There is a vast amount of fun included in the AA fellowship. Some people may be shocked at our apparent worldliness and levity, but just underneath there is a deadly earnestness and a full realization that we must put first things firs. With each of us the first thing is our alcoholic problem. Faith must work twenty-four hours a day in and through us, or we perish. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3761. . . . . . . . . . . . The Texas Pamphlet 1940 (Part 1b) From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 7:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII STORY OF A "WAY OUT" FOR HOPELESS DRINKERS How an Idea Originated by Ex-Alcoholics Has Helped 2000 to Recover This is a series of six articles about a group of ex-drinkers who have succeeded in a new method of going on the wagon and staying there. One of their first principles is to pass their experience along, to help others similarly afflicted. The Press will be glad to receive comments. -- The Editor By a Member of Alcoholics Anonymous People who get around much need no telling that the problem of those who drink too much for the good of themselves, their work and their families is already serious and becoming worse. And those who know most about it, either because they themselves are drinkers of this type or because they are close to one who is, realize it in all its lacerating, hopeless details. It is an age-old problem. Prohibition undoubtedly intensified it. The depression has multiplied its victims. Today many people are taking the attitude of the English officer in India, who hated his assignment. When reproved for excessive drinking, he lifted his glass and said, "This is the swiftest road out of India." Now it is true that this part of Texas has escaped the worst part of the depression; but not all of it. And trouble is always easy to find, so that many, like the Englishman, have been indulging in excessive elbow-bending to get away from their worries, their disappointments and their fears in the unstable, war-crazy unsure world of today. Free to begin drinking, some of them find they are not free to stop. This series of articles is about them, for them, and for those who are willing to help them. It is the story of how hundreds of ex-alcoholics, by a method which they themselves devised and perfected, have found the way out of the squirrel cage. Most of them, after all that medical and psychiatric science, and even formal religion, could do, had been pronounced hopeless. But if you think they are out to take the glass from the hand of drinkers to whom the diagnosis "alcoholic" does not apply, you are wholly mistaken. As one of them put it, "If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right about face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried long enough and hard enough to drink like other people." Thus the problem, as Alcoholics Anonymous sees it, is limited strictly to those who have become, or are on the road to becoming, drinkers headed straight for destruction, unless help beyond the usual is brought within their reach. If this series sometimes turns autobiographical, it will be because it is difficult for a man who has been delivered of a ghastly fate to write with the soberness and restraint required by a strictly objective account. Tried Many Cures Jails, hospitals, attempts at suicide, psychopathic wards, sanitariums, all sorts of "spiritual" and "faith" cures, even hypnotism---these have all been mine without deliverance; some by choice, some because society's hand was raised against me. Society did not know I was sick. I had made my bed and society insisted that I lie in it. But alcoholics are definitely sick, as this series will try to show. Nor did tears, pleadings or threats alter my course for long; and in spite of my own utmost determination, I could never find the answer. I have personally met at least one hundred "cured" alcoholics---"fellow rummies" as they jokingly call each other. Their stories parallel my own. Most of them are even worse. One man had been in a sanitarium more than one hundred times. Another came to see me while I was "taking a rest" in a sanitarium---being defogged so I could use again what brains I had. A livid scar around his neck stood out like the welt raised by a whip. His wrists bore similar witness to the realization of the utter helplessness that had driven him to try suicide as his "swiftest road" out of the India of his perplexities. I have been in the homes of some ex-alcoholics, Skeptical by nature, an investigator by training, I took no one's unsupported word. But I saw for myself, not only the new bearing of confidence, even of joy, that exuded from the ex-drinker, but also the ordered life of his family and the new hope and happiness in their faces. I heard it in the tone of their voices. Literally, these things are hard to believe unless you have had both the experience of being damned and then the surprise of being rescued out of "the jaws of hell," as the old-fashioned revivalists used to put it. No Mystery Some of the experiences of these "cured" alcoholics will enliven the serious business of these articles, which is to explain how the alcoholic gets that way; why he or she is different from other drinkers who are able to "hold their liquor" all their lives; how the fellowship called Alcoholics Anonymous came into being and spread from one man, who in desperation evolved the idea, to include now nearly five hundred men and women, with centers being established in one section of the country after another; in as much detail as space will permit, just what the technique is, how it works, how the alcoholic may avail himself of it; and how anyone interested may help. Repeating what the advance notice of the series said: "No medicine. No treatments. No cost. No mystery. No terrible battle of the will. Ministers have preached about it. Physicians and psychiatrists have praised it." No one has an axe to grind. Members of the fellowship give of their time---often their money---to help some victim. Why? The series will also explain that. An Inevitable End One can get an eye-witness picture of what happens when several score ex-alcoholics get together in a meeting. No more startling, unbelievable contrast could be imagined than a comparison with what they would have looked like had they assembled when each was at the end of his rope. Physicians, perhaps more than any other group, know the alcoholic and his hitherto almost inevitable end. Here are the words of two of them: "I personally know 30 of these cases who were the type with whom other methods had failed completely. "Because of the possibilities of rapid growth inherent in this group, they may mark a new epoch in the annals of alcoholism. These men may well have a remedy for thousands of such situations. "You may rely absolutely on anything they say about themselves. "The subject seems to me to be of paramount importance to those afflicted with alcoholic addiction. I say this after many years experience as medical director of one of the oldest hospitals in the country treating alcoholic and drug addiction." The second says: "Will the movement spread? Will these recoveries be permanent? No one can say. Yet we at this hospital, from our observation of many cases, are willing to record our present opinion as a strong `yes' to both questions." The head of a hospital and sanitarium in a nearby Texas city, who has many alcoholics come to him, now requires all of them to read about the methods of "Alcoholics Anonymous." There must be fire where there is smoke. I, for one, know this to be true. (Taken from http://silkworth.net/aahistory/houston_press1940a.html ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3762. . . . . . . . . . . . The Texas Pamphlet 1940 (Part 2) From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 7:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII SEEMINGLY ALLERGIC TO DRINK: ALCOHOLIC'S BURDEN Craving, Plus Inability to Heed Warning of Own Weakness, Leads Inebriate to Succumb (Second of Six Articles) ____________________________________ What is an "alcoholic"? How does he differ from other drinkers? An incident to illustrate: Convinced that I had nothing to sell, puzzled that I did not come as a patient either, the nurse finally ushered me into the office of one of Houston's most eminent physicians. He is prominent also in other activities that often have put him in the spotlight. He is a "big name." I had come, as an ex-alcoholic, to tell him about Alcoholics Anonymous and to have him introduce me to an alcoholic victim among his patients whom I might help; for I am a stranger in Houston. One Needing Help The good doctor, eyebrows bristling, welcomed me with gruff suspicion. No, he had never heard of Alcoholics Anonymous. But he listened. I felt he was showing more Texas courtesy than interest. Half way through my recital he broke in: "Humph," he humphed, "I have no patience with these fellows you call `victims.'" His voice showed it. "Why, I can handle anything. So could they control their drinking if they wanted to." But he gave me the name of an able man whose excessive indulgence in firewater was endangering the business he had built up, wrecking his health, rendering his family desperate. "He's just out of a cure," said the doctor. "But he gave them the runaround some way. Hitting it up again. See what you can do with him. Tell him I sent you. His family is crazy. I can do nothing more." There you have in one situation the two kinds of drinkers--the man who can "handle anything," and the drinker who steps right out of one of the usual "cures" and hoists a few before he even gets home. But our experience tells us that everybody cannot "handle anything." The alcoholic cannot control his drinking. Sometimes the dividing line over which he has slid is hard to place. Some people are alcoholics with their first drink. Most of them become such by degrees. "Not an Alcoholic" How can a drinker define his position on the scale? How can the condition known medically as alcoholism be recognized before the desperate stage? To get drunk once in a while does not necessarily prove one is an alcoholic in the sense in which the word is used here. A man may drink steadily all his life with an occasional roaring bender, and not be thus classified. Just before writing this article, I lunched by chance with a newspaperman of short acquaintance. This subject came up and I showed him a draft of yesterday's story in this series. "Humm!" he said. "That hits me. I've been on the wagon for nine months now. I've never heard of Alcoholics Anonymous; but I know it isn't the tenth drink that will get me down, but the first one. But I'm not an alcoholic." That's what they all say. Nobody likes to admit that he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows, especially if he imagines (though wrongly) that doing so pegs him as somehow inferior in good taste, self-control, gentlemanliness, or what have you. "O.K., then," I said. "You're not an alcoholic. However, here's a test I'll bet you're afraid to make. "You can diagnose yourself, I'll get a bottle. Come to my room this evening and we'll sit around and gas, while you try some controlled drinking. Take several shots and see what happens. The First Drink "See if you can stop abruptly and forget about it. Try it several times. It will not take long to decide if you are honest with yourself, and it may be worth a bad case of jitters to learn the truth." "Nothing doing," the gentleman of the press replied. He came back with it so quickly that you couldn't doubt he meant it. "Done that too many times already. It's the first drink that sends me `off to the races.'" He's an alcoholic. Perhaps not for a long time will he touch another drop. Then some fine day when he isn't looking, one of the insanely absurd and inadequate reasons with which the alcoholic deludes himself when he wants a drink, will pop into his head, just when the drinks are handy. The first glass down, it's the old story again; but this time he's older. The reasons for his former sobriety may be gone. The picture is different. He has shamed himself, damaged his pride and self-confidence. And perhaps he can't snap out of it by himself or with the ordinary kind of help. With true alcoholics, it is never a question of control or moderation. Their only out is absolute abstinence. Alcoholics Anonymous might well make the last two words of the preceding paragraph the second meaning of "A.A." Why is this total aversion necessary for the drinkers and not for others? Omar Khayyam, you remember, said of the juice of his well beloved grape: "'Tis a blessing; we should use it, should we not? And if a curse, why then, who put it there?" The alcoholic can indulge in no such philosophical fancies, any more than a diabetic can gorge himself on sweets His body and his mind become sick, with alcohol. It is as though he is allergic to drink. The allergy theory is admitted by physicians who advance it to be only a theory. Nevertheless, it explains many things that otherwise do not make sense. Three things especially characterize the alcoholic as a different breed of cattle. The first is the phenomenon of craving. Not merely the thought that a drink would be agreeable, but a definite, undeniable craving. The second is the appearance of the curious mental phenomenon that, parallel to the victim's sound reasoning which warns him of the folly and danger, there inevitably runs some insanely trivial excuse for taking the first drink. Insanely trivial because, measured against the hell which from experience he knows he's in for, no one in the state of mind called normal and sane would act on it for a minute. Sound reasoning fails to hold him in check. The insane idea wins out. Unable to Stop The third distinguishing characteristic is the fact that the alcoholic, actual or potential, is absolutely unable to stop drinking on the basis of self-knowledge. This point has been smashed home on many members of Alcoholics Anonymous out of bitter experience. How many are the dodges they have tried in vain! Here is a partial list: Drinking whiskey only with milk, drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, drinking only at home, never having it in the home, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parities, switching from Scotch to brandy or rum, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums--the list could go on ad infinitum. I can add a favorite of my own. Believing that the evil of drink lies not in its use but in its abuse. I tried asking whatever you may choose to call the higher Power to teach me control. Well, it seems God didn't build me that way. I'm glad I found out in time. Alcoholism is an illness in a class by itself. People feel sorry for the victim of cancer. No one gets angry about it. But look at the alcoholic's trail of misunderstanding, fierce resentments, financial insecurity, disgusted friends and employers, warped lives of blameless and trusting children, sad wives and parents--and more. That is why Alcoholics Anonymous wants this message spread broadcast. If you see no need for it now, who knows how soon you may have occasion to remember it? It may not be a bad idea to clip this series and save it against that day. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3763. . . . . . . . . . . . The Texas Pamphlet 1940 (Part 3) From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 7:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HOW IT STARTED AND GAINED SPEED Idea to Help Serious Alcoholics Originated In East; Launched by Man Who Was "Incurable" (Third of Six Articles) ____________________________________ "I see he's back again." said the orderly to the nurse as Mr. X for the umpsteenth time turned up in the alcoholic division of a hospital in a larger Eastern city. He was a regular customer. But this time he came to grips with himself on an idea brought by a friend. More ideas came later. He examined and re-examined them. Already he had given himself up to the fate of an incurable alcoholic, in he had nothing to turn to more effective than he had found hitherto. When hospital care had knocked the booze out of his brain and nerves, he immediately began to put his ideas into practice. They worked. He stayed sober. "Later," said the head of the hospital, "he requested the privilege of being allowed to tell his story to other patients here, and with some misgiving we consented. "The cases we have followed through have been most interesting; in fact, many are amazing. "The unselfishness of these men as we have come to know them, the entire absence of profit motive, and their community spirit, is indeed inspiring to one who has labored long and wearily in this alcoholic field. Five Years Old Thus was Alcoholics Anonymous born about five years ago, out of one victim's desperation. Growing very slowly at first, actually from man to man, centers of information about it now are springing up in widely scattered areas throughout the country. In the doctor's comment you have the principle reason for the idea's thus coming to nation-wide attention. When a man makes a spectacular come-back--a right-about-face after having made an ass of himself for years--people ask questions. They may be skeptical at first, but secretly they are astonished, and curious. Furthermore, the man thus set upon his feet cannot help being a kind of missionary. But a missionary with what a difference! What missionary to the savage was ever a savage? But the messenger of Alcoholics Anonymous knows from his own checkered experience all the tricks, all the curves in the road, all the answers to the alcoholic's self delusions. That's the thing that sold me, finally. These "rummies" knew their onions. They weren't mealy mouthed. They didn't lecture. When they talked to me, still unconvinced, their faces, their "lingo," their gestures, their whole bearing, bespoke the onetime experienced toper. They were offering, not theory but fact. They acted as though they had a sure thing. They merely wanted me to know about it, what it had done for them. Take It of Leave It Go back now to four years ago. A man pacing the lobby of a hotel in a strange city, He is a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. Something has gone wrong with his business trip. Not only has he failed, but he wonders how he is going to pay his hotel bill. The deal that fell through has stirred up a bitter feeling in him. He has only been sober a few months. As he feels the temptation of the inviting bar at the end of the lobby, he realizes his predicament. Should he join the gay crowd? Find release, scrape an acquaintance, avoid a lonesome week-end? Here he runs square up against one of the basic rules of the fellowship. When tempted, it says, if possible work with another alcoholic. With music and gay chatter in his ears, he turns and seeks the lobby church directory. At random he selects the name of a minister and telephones him. His talk leads him to a former able and respected resident who is on the rocks from excessive drinking. How this man was reclaimed, how these two salvaged two others, how in 18 months the number grew to 10, and how one couple became so interested that they dedicated their home to the work, is an absorbing story related in the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous," published by the fellowship. Of this, more later; for the book, and the "Alcoholic Foundation," have been other notable steps in making the message available to all. The only requirement for membership is the honest willingness to do anything to quit drinking. No Fees, No Dues There are no fees, no dues. You need not buy the book if an alcoholic cured by, and experienced in, the technique of Alcoholics Anonymous will clearly give you an idea. Buttressing the personal work of one alcoholic with another, informal meetings are arranged in each center as soon as a small group can be formed. I never saw anything like them. Here centers the social life of the group. Happiness, gaiety, good fellowship abound. After the brief session devoted to the problems of alcoholics, and the words of advice and encouragement and the interchange of experiences, there may be a poker game, or several tables of bridge. These birds don't turn sissy when they quit drinking. They get back their real vitality. And the majority are clever, able, once successful people. You see many business men, doctors, lawyers, star salesmen, contractors, insurance men, brokers, merchants, as well as the man whose field is more limited. These gatherings present the vivid contrast of happy faces and the strained, hungry faces of "prospects" hearing about this for the first time. The members take away with them a glow they never got out of the best bottle they ever tipped. And it's there in the morning--a hangover of relief, freedom, of strength to hit the new day's work and worry right on the button. The prospects take away at least the first thrill of wonder and of hope. Is it strange that the group grows? Ministers Approve Ministers like Dr. Dilworth Lupton, widely known pastor of First Unitarian Church in Cleveland, O., have personally investigated and then devoted a whole sermon to the subject. Newspapers like The Houston Press have offered space. Physicians, nurses, psychiatrists, who have had personal experience with alcoholics made well by this method, give it to other patients. And alcoholics grab off prospects wherever they spy them, sometimes right off the bar. Their telephones, when they ceased to be anonymous, may ring at any hour of the night telling of someone in desperate plight. They go. The movement spreads. So far, in two weeks I have been in Houston, I have yet to find one person who heard me talk even most casually about this, who hasn't said, either, "Say, that sounds like something"; or, more often, "I know a man who needs it bad. Here's his name." Alcoholics Anonymous is the most infectious idea I ever caught. I am quite likely to give it to anyone I come in contact with, for I take no precautions. My own experience well illustrates how the movement spreads. Before I left Cleveland to come to Houston, for three weeks I had been trying to straighten out a friend who was soused to the gills, chiefly by drinking with him and trying to taper him off, and either walking him home so he wouldn't break his neck, or pouring him into a taxi. He wound up in a liquor cure institution. I visited him. By that time, Alcoholics Anonymous had got hold of him. He told me about them. By accident or design--I never knew which--I met two of them at his bedside one morning. This friend took to this thing and went to town. It had me thinking, because he had been in terrible shape. He wasn't far out of the port of last call. Problem of Control It wasn't long afterwards when, "well in the bag," I received a visit at my hotel from an Alcoholics Anonymous. I had never even heard of him. No soap. No dice. Like the good doctor mentioned at the beginning of this article, I wasn't interested. My problem was merely one of control. I wasn't an alcoholic (so I thought). How did he get that way--telling me I was? When the bottle in my room was empty, he suggested that we adjourn to the bar. We did. He drank coffee, bought whisky for me. Next morning all I could clearly remember was that this perfect stranger spent time and money on me to get me to quit drinking, and I didn't know why. Nothing like this had ever happened to me before. So when he telephoned the next evening asking if he could come over, I said, "Yes." By the time he got there, I was even further "overseas" than at the time of his first visit. He urged patiently that I should go to a hospital, rest up, eat again like a human being, and think the thing out. The man had inhuman patience. He said he did this because he liked to and because it helped him to stay sober. This was in a cafe. "Nuts," I said. But through a zero blizzard that night I finally let him drive me 50 miles to a sanitarium approved by Alcoholics Anonymous, and at 4 a. m., as he left me, after having talked with me for eight hours without once doing the pleading act, he saw me take my last drink. And I mean last. For a week, sometimes as many as half a dozen members of Alcoholics Anonymous visited me in the sanitarium every day. I regained my poise. The fourth day I swallowed my pride and admitted that although I might in all other things have equal omnipotence with God Himself, in regard to drink I was licked before I started. I began practicing the technique immediately. Then occurred the change, to me still amazing. Now then, when I decided to live in Houston, how could I help spilling some of this stuff down here, where nobody seems to know about it? Wouldn't I be a heel if I kept such a priceless thing to myself? Did you ever hear "Freely ye have received, freely give?" (Taken from http://silkworth.net/aahistory/houston_press1940c.html ) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3764. . . . . . . . . . . . History of "the Twelve Promises" From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2006 1:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have another question. Does anyone know the history of that section of the Big Book on Pages 83 and 84 that so many call the Promises? tmd [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3765. . . . . . . . . . . . The Texas Pamphlet 1940 (Part 4) From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 7:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII SPIRITUAL ASPECT MOST IMPORTANT Foundation for New Life Comes With Reliance Upon Power Greater Than Human Ken (Fourth of Six Articles) ____________________________________ As readers of these articles by now have doubtless suspected, the core of the technique by which Alcoholics Anonymous has worked what often seems like a miracle in the lives of men and women, is spiritual. Not religious, but spiritual. Not mental, not psychological---though it is all three of these also---but spiritual. The majority of the hundreds of alcoholics already reclaimed probably could have been classed rightly only as unbelievers and agnostics. Does it seem strange that this attitude proved no bar to their laying hold on the central truth that is demonstrated by this group? No stranger than the fact that the membership embraces Jew and Gentile, Catholic and Protestant, all creeds, denominations and faiths. Universal Truth There is no reason why Hindu, the Mohammedan, or the veriest unreclaimed Hottentot could not translate the central truth about this cure for alcoholism into his own faith, his own native customs. It is universal because it depends on its effectiveness, and depends absolutely on the recognition of a Power higher than man--the Creative Spirit over all. The name is immaterial. It will, however, simplify matters to use the familiar terminology employed in the Christian religion, calling this power "God." How you picture Him, say Alcoholics Anonymous in all reverence, does not matter. To Smith He may be a patriarch up there somewhere, with a dazzling robe. To Jones, the agnostic, His form is still a question mark, if indeed He has any form understandable to man. And Brown may almost literally feel the reassuring pressure of His hand as they walk together through the tough spots of the day. The Creative Spirit is in all things. It is not strange that people should differ in the ways in which they realize this. But the Power Itself is one and the same thing. How did these ex-alcoholics get hold of this Power? By a simple act of faith. It's really the way the Good Book tells about. The alcoholic says in effect: "I've beat this habit around the bush from hell to breakfast and back again, and I can't whip it. It has me down. I can't beat it alone. But there is a Power greater than I. I shall call on it now; and forever more, daily, hourly if necessary, to preserve me from this evil." If this be said in absolute honesty, and adhered to, the foundation of a new life is laid, this time on rock. No more shifting sand. Since "faith without works is dead," however, more has to be done. This is only the beginning. And it is in the sequence of other steps in the technique that the alcoholic soon realizes the unique and amazing practical value. Habit-Changing The reward seems to go hand in hand with the deed. Psychologists and psychiatrists will tell you that, to change a person's ingrained habits, one of two things is necessary: either a long and painful re-education of mind and body, by a supreme and often agonizing effort of the will, so that one set of habits finally is ousted and a new set learned by deliberate and diligent dally practice; or else a change, such as a person experiences in a complete surrender to spiritual principles. This later is what is meant by a spiritual experience. It reaches the inner man. The old passes away and behold all things are indeed become new. If it can be achieved, it is the simplest, the easiest, the quickest, the surest way, and the safest from relapse. William James, the noted psychologist, in his book "Varieties of Religious Experiences," illustrates the myriad paths by which this inner change may be wrought. But surrender to the higher Power, and faith therein, are of the essence of all. In non-religious terms, the experience is like the realization that sometimes comes to a person who has never appreciated good music or good books, and who all of a sudden "gets" the idea of the pleasure, the value to be found in them. Thenceforth he proceeds with delight to enjoy that in which he formerly had found no charm, no meaning. Similarly, the alcoholic come to a realization that the Higher Power waits to help: that with God, truly "all things are possible." As outlined in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous," the steps so far outlined in this article comprise the first three of twelve steps in the entire technique. In the experience of alcoholics who have taken all three, what has happened? A New World "I stood in the sunlight at last. Scales of pride and prejudice fell from my eyes. A new world came into view." Again: "After making this final agreement (not just for another resolution) to let God be first in my life, the whole outlook and horizon brightened up in a manner which I am unable to describe except to say that it was `glorious.' "There is no `cocky' feeling about this for me. I know I am an alcoholic; and while I used to call on God to help me, my conclusion is that I was simply asking God to help me drink alcohol without its hurting me, which is a far different thing that asking Him to help me not drink at all. So here I stand, and it is wonderful." An artist: "A chart of my spiritual progress would look like the graph of a business that had been hit by everything but an earthquake; but there has been progress. It has cured me of a vicious habit. "Where my life had been full of mental turmoil, there is now an ever increasing depth of calmness. "Where there was a hit or miss attitude toward living, there is now new direction and force. "To me it makes sense, opens up a fascinating field of endeavor, and is a challenge the acceptance of which can make of life the `Adventure Magnificent'." We Have to Live It I myself, coming down from Cleveland, Ohio, to Houston on the train, hardly out of my swaddling clothes on this thing, all of a sudden felt so overwhelmingly illuminated and relieved by the idea that I no longer had to think about "to drink or not to drink," that I dug out my notebook and wrote down, How much of my life this realization turned loose for things of real value! As my oldest son wrote me yesterday: "Congratulations upon your discovery that you and alcohol do not agree. Now that you give full recognition to that fact, you cease to be on deceitful terms with yourself and all of you can go in the same direction--which is ahead!" He hit the bullseye that time. I'm free now because I'm all in one piece--no longer a "house divided against itself." But this spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it. Alcoholics Anonymous do not think it is enough merely for a man to stay sober. What of the swath of destruction the alcoholic has cut through the lives of others by his refusal, failure or inability to consider the needs of those who have trusted him and those who are dependent on him? Remorse won't pay this off. There's some work to be done. Now that the preliminaries of surrender and of faith are established, the period of practice comes. Here is where the other nine of the 12 points of the Alcoholics Anonymous code comes into view. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3766. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Richmond Walker From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2006 7:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is it true that Richmond W. did not get sober in AA? ________________________________________________ See http://hindsfoot.org/rwchrn.html and http://hindsfoot.org/rwfla1.html Rich got sober the first time in the Oxford Group in Boston in 1939. There was no AA group in Boston yet at that time. He stayed sober in the Oxford Group for two and a half years, before going back to drinking in 1941. After a year and a half of drinking, he joined the newly founded Boston AA group in May 1942, and never drank again for the rest of his life. In 1948, he put together the little meditational book called "Twenty-Four Hours a Day," at the request of the AA group in Daytona Beach, Florida. The little book became the second most popular book in AA history (exceeded only by the Big Book). It explained how to carry out the eleventh step, how to practice the presence of God, and how to attain soul-balance and inner calm. It explained how to practice meditation by quieting the mind and entering the Divine Silence in order to enter the divine peace and calm and restore our souls. (see http://hindsfoot.org/hp5rw.html ) His experience in the Oxford Group in 1939-1941 comes out strongly in "Twenty-Four Hours a Day," coming partly from Rich's own experience in the group, and coming partly from his use of an Oxford Group work on prayer and meditation, "God Calling," by Two Listeners. For those who would like to bring modern AA back closer to Oxford Group beliefs and practices, "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" is the most strongly Oxford-Group-oriented work written by an early AA author. Rich died on Mar. 25, 1965 (72 years old) with 22 years of sobriety in AA. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3767. . . . . . . . . . . . The Texas Pamphlet 1940 (Part 5) From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 7:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII TWELVE STAGES TO OVERCOME ALCOHOLISM Stumbling Blocks Must Be Removed by Patient Effort and Daily Application of System (Fifth of Six Articles) ____________________________________ If wishes were horses, beggars would ride; and the alcoholics could come into his cure on the gallop. True enough, the deliverance of the alcoholic already begun with the soul-deep wish to be free of this weight that rides him relentlessly and as odiously as the Old Man of the Sea rode Sindbad the Sailor in the "Arabian Nights." Then, as explained in the preceding article, has come the recognition of human helplessness and complete reliance on the Supreme Power as the one way out. But the steps have only turned on the lights of faith and set the stage for action. The leading man must now make his entrance, play his part. The first word of the first act is "honesty." To be honest, says the dictionary, means to be straightforward in thought and conduct; free from any deception or fraud. How It Works The chapter of the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous," entitled "How It Works," begins: "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. "There are such unfortunates. They seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. "There are those too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders; but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest." You will note the cardinal emphasis on this business of being truthful. If the alcoholic who seeks relief by this technique is too befogged, too jittery, to think honestly it is usually wise, on the advice of a physician, for him first to be given the care that will enable him to think straight, even if it means a period in hospital or sanitarium. You need your brain to beat alcohol. When the bees are buzzing in it, and pink elephants are beginning to think you might soon have some peanuts for them, it is hard, if not indeed impossible, to think straight. Everybody is out of step but you. The alcoholic, then, has to be his real self, and have the help of God, to take the next steps on the road to freedom. While Alcoholics Anonymous suggest a program numbering 12 stages, individuals vary as to the ones they emphasize. Lives are different, hence recoveries differ also. Two General Units The remaining nine steps therefore will be treated here as two general units: one, "cleaning house"; and two, "helping others." Let us examine them. The alcoholic has been living an undisciplined , self-centered life. Whether he admits it or not, competent outside observers could demonstrate it in two minutes, The history of a leading physician in an eastern city, whose guest I have been, may be extreme in illustrating this, but it is typical. After having been 35 years on the bottle, he has now been weaned for nearly five years. He is one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. He told me this story: "I had developed two dandy phobias that kept me in a spin. I feared that I should not be able to sleep at night unless I went to bed well oiled; and I feared that if I were under the influence during the day, I should not be able to earn enough money to buy enough liquor to get drunk enough to sleep at night so I could work the next day to get more money to buy more liquor so I could go to sleep..... and so on and so on, around the clock. "So during the day I doped myself with heavy sedatives to hold down the jitters, and at night, having sneaked my liquor in, I drank myself to sleep. "Where, in 35 years of such a squirrel-cage existence, was there a chance for this doctor to live the generous life---one guided by consideration for others? In the presence of his obsession with alcohol, nothing else counted heavily, no matter how many or how frequent were the isolated acts of kindness and generosity he performed. He was living for his alcoholic self. All alcoholics, in varying degree, live that way. Hence they have cluttered their lives with wrongs to other people. Part of the housecleaning process consists in acknowledging these wrongs; inventorying them; righting them insofar as possible without doing further harm to people; asking God to remove shortcomings; and continuing to take personal inventory day by day, admitting and undoing a committed wrong as soon as discovered. These are the most difficult stumbling blocks for many. To get over them, not only is rigid honesty with self and others obviously a prerequisite, but also moral courage of the highest degree. Yet, at this juncture, the alcoholic is reminded of the saying of the Man of Galilee: "Lo, I am with you always." He does not need to go alone. One alcoholic, in fear and trembling, set out to square himself with some business acquaintances upon whom he depended for what was left of his livelihood. Like most alcoholics, he thought few people knew the extent of his former dependence on drink, and he feared that he would alienate them by telling them how he failed to measure up to business requirements. But they knew. What's more, they understood and sympathized with his new position. Sincerity and clean purpose seem irresistible even to the congenital skeptic! This man returned home elated. He's been going like a house afire ever since. If you were convinced that such a man's real purpose was to fit himself to be of maximum service to the people about him, and there were no room for suspecting him of hypocrisy or self-deceit, what would be your attitude toward him, Alcoholics Anonymous ask. Well, that's the way it works! The Final Step The final step of cleaning house is the morning preparation for each day. Now, it is evident that any alcoholic, unless he be in the very throes of death from delirium tremens or some other complication, can live without a drink for 24 hours. Many have repeatedly done so--in jails, in psychopathic wards, in hospitals and sanitariums; or just on plain will power. If the stake was high enough, they'd do it merely on a bet, sitting on a barrel of their favorite brand with the bunghole open. But without bolstering of some kind they could not add another 24 hours to another indefinitely. They've tried. They've invariably failed. That's why they are alcoholics. But when they exchange such enforced and material aids for the spiritual help of that Power-Higher-Then-Themselves, the way one dry 24 hours follows another is simplicity itself. The alcoholic who is following the procedure here outlined begins his day by making conscious contact with this Power--with God. Some call it prayer. Some call it meditation. Some read the Bible. But all of them try honestly to square off the day in the presence of God. Twenty-four hours to go without a drink. Twenty-four hours to be honest. Twenty-four hours to live like a man. That's all. No worry about the next day, the next year, or the next five, or the next 15. Shucks, can't he drink if he wants to? Certainly. But the next 24 hours belong to God. No drinks. And "sufficient unto the day are the evils thereof." O.K., then. If he does the same every morning and comes through clean, even a fuzz-wit can see that the man will be sober the rest of his life. And as the blessings of freedom, and growth toward the full rewards of living sanely, pile up, every day becomes easier. Life gains momentum, in the midst of peace. The alcoholic just entering upon this new life is actually thrilled to discover that, he is to have not one but many true and generous human friends below--friends who have been through his special kind of hell and have conquered. They will understand. That's a bracer with a wallop such as he was never able to get from alcohol. The twelve steps complete will be found on page 30 of this booklet. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3768. . . . . . . . . . . . The Texas Pamphlet 1940 (Part 6) From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 7:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HIGH PERCENTAGE OF RECOVERY Drinker Must Read About Procedure or Talk With One of Those Freed From Alcoholism (Last of Six Articles) ____________________________________ Cases already brought to light by these stories show homes breaking up, divorce or suicide a daily fear or threat, jobs jeopardized, health and sanity slipping, even the bare routine of living relentlessly corroded. Unseeing, or brazenly ignoring facts; deluding himself, or helplessly letting things drift to the brink, the alcoholic has caused those who love him to grasp at any straw. Immediately after the first article appeared, a mother wrote, pleading: "I shall appreciate haste in your reply, with a view that we may head off this coming week-end nightmare." Another: "S O S. Please telephone me immediately." "My husband is after liquor like a dope after dope. We are so worried and don't know what to do. Please help me with him," writes another. Illustrating the helplessness of the alcoholic: "I am very anxious to find some remedy for this sickness of my father, who really wants and tries to quit drinking." A Ray of Hope Gratitude: "Your articles in The Press have given a ray of hope to many mothers." Desperation: "Oh, I pray you can help me, for the worry has almost got me. I am a nervous wreck myself. I will hope to hear from you as soon as possible. Please let me hear. It's my last straw." Hopelessness: "What must I do? I am so sick, he worries me so much. I can hardly hold my head up. I don't know which way to go. I just can't stand it much longer." The fear that drives the alcoholic's family to secrecy is shown by the envelope. addressed to Mr. Anonymous, Box 2771, Houston, which contained nothing but the address of a man. Ministers and physicians have written, praising and offering help, and giving the names of alcoholics needing cure. Besides being a vivid revelation of the prevalence of the malady in Houston, pleas such as the foregoing emphasize the need for careful understanding of just what the method of Alcoholics Anonymous is. The six articles of this series give a fair outline. The details, of course, have had to be condensed. But those who are interested in putting some alcoholic on the road to recovery should not think that this is a magic formula that can be made to work overnight, or without the co-operation of the alcoholic. Three Alternatives The first step, therefore, is to get him interested enough to do one of three things: read this series, read the book or talk to Mr. Anonymous. If he is too drunk or too jittery to do any of these, on the advice of a physician he may need to be hospitalized until he can talk and think and decide rationally. Our experience as a group indicates that a brief hospitalization is most desirable in many cases, and really imperative at times. Besides enabling the patient to think clearly, he can be easily approached by our members under favorable conditions. Whenever possible such is the practice in our established centers. In Houston, there is as yet no group of alcoholics restored to health by this method. The next nearest individual ex-alcoholic is in Galveston, and the next nearest in Marlin. As soon as there are several, it will be possible to bring more of these personal contact and guidance to those seeking relief. Meanwhile, Mr. Anonymous will do what one man can to supplement the explanations in these articles, and in the book. Why is it so helpful to the drinker who has reached the condition treated of here, to talk with a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is because only another alcoholic understands him. Lawyers, ministers, business partners and employers, parents and wives, often listen to confidences and fresh resolutions. But the clergy may say, "Your drinking is a sin." The partner or employer: "You'll have to quit this monkey business or get out." Wife or parent: "This drinking is breaking my heart." And everyone, "Why don't you exercise some will power and straighten up and be a man?" "But," the alcoholic whispers in his heart, "no one but I can know that I must drink to kill the worry and suffering too great to stand." Bunk----All Bunk! He presents his excuses to the member of Alcoholics Anonymous who has come to talk. Can't sleep without liquor. Worry. Business troubles. Wife doesn't understand. Debt. Stomach trouble. Overwork. Nerves too high strung. Fatigue. In-law trouble. Loneliness. Grief. Deep, dark, phobic fears. Then Mr. Anonymous begins to tell the sick one how many more alibis he himself knows. "Bunk," he says in effect. "I've used them all myself." And then he tells his own alcoholic history, certainly as bad, perhaps far worse. They match experiences. Before long the prospect has told his new friend things he never even admitted to himself. A rough and ready psychology it is; but it works in more than half the cases. In the cases where the alcoholic really and honestly wants to get well, the percentage is near 100. This series will close with a brief but clear digest of the principles and methods of Alcoholics Anonymous; seen through the eyes of eminent religious leaders. First, Dr. Dilworth Lupton, pastor of First Unitarian Church, Cleveland, where there is a group of about 200 ex-alcoholics, said in a recent sermon: "I most humbly confess to having failed completely with alcoholics. Many of my friends in the fields of medicine and psychiatry confess the same feeling of futility. He's Now Convinced "Recently, however, my experience with a victim of alcoholism and later with the fellowship that calls itself Alcoholics Anonymous, first aroused my hopes, then my faith; and now I am convinced that these people have found a way out. I have seen it with my own eyes. "Mr. X, the former alcoholic to whom I just refereed, is a young man with a family. For five years he was rarely sober. He and his wife were headed straight for the divorce court. "Two years ago he consented to hospitalization. While under treatment he received 18 visits from ex-victims who were members of Alcoholics Anonymous, all of them laymen. Soon he was attending weekly meetings of the Cleveland group. He hasn't had a drink since. "I have attended two meetings of this group. About 80 were present. They are what the world calls he-men. They come from all walks of life. Catholics, Protestants, Jews, near-agnostics and near-atheists are among their number. "I found no excessive piety, no sensationalism, no fanaticism, no aggressive evangelism. They have no desire to make the country dry, or anybody else dry unless he happens to be like them, allergic to alcohol. They seem to have a good sense of humor, a quality sometimes rare in religious circles. "From what I have read and heard and seen, I am convinced that the success of this movement is due to the practice of certain religious principles that are as tried and true as the Ten Commandments. Spiritual Dependence "First: The principle of spiritual dependence. "My friend, Mr. X, was told by his ex-alcoholic visitors that they had not been able to save themselves, and that only as they reached out for a Power that was greater than themselves was their compulsive neurosis broken. That principle is the core of the movement, just as it is the core of all religion at its best. "Second: The principle of universality. "Alcoholics Anonymous is composed of men of various religious faiths, and they intend to keep it so. Indeed, there is no pressure toward joining any religious organization. Furthermore--and this surprises me--each man can conceive of God in whatever concepts please him. "Such an attitude displays nothing short of genius. These men recognize that behind all forms and expressions of religion itself--the impulse to live nobly and adore the highest. "Third: The principle of mutual aid. As one of them said, `What we have is of no good unless we give it away.' My friend Mr. X seems typical. He spends every available minute helping alcoholics get on their feet. And he is having a wonderful time. If that isn't Christianity, in Heaven's name, what is? "Fourth: The principle of transformation. "The ultimate test of religion is the change it makes in the character of the believer. Every man I have met who is connected with Alcoholics Anonymous declares that there has been an astonishing change in attitude and outlook, as well as habits. In the face of collapse and despair they have found a new sense of direction and power. "It has been moving and convincing." Our Book of Experience Regarding the 400-page book, "Alcoholics Anonymous," obtainable c.o.d. for $3.50 by writing to Works Publishing Co., Box 657, Church Street Post Office, New York City, Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick, internationally noted Baptist leader, said in a published review: "This extraordinary book deserves the careful attention of anyone interested in the problem of alcoholism. Whether as victims, friends of victims, physicians, clergymen, psychiatrists or social workers there are many such, and this book will give them as no other treatise known to this reviewer will, an inside view of the problem which the alcoholic faces. "This book represents the pooled experience of 100 men and women who have been victims of alcoholism--many of them declared hopeless by the experts--and who have won their freedom and recovered their sanity and self-control. Their stories are detailed and circumstantial, packed with human interest. "The book is not in the least sensational. It is notable for its sober, careful, tolerant, sympathetic treatment of the alcoholic's problem and of the successful techniques by which its co-authors have won their freedom. "The core of their whole procedure is religious--the expulsion of the alcoholic's obsession by a Power-greater-than-himself. Nowhere is the tolerance and open-mindedness of the book more evident than in its treatment of this central matter. "They are not partisans of any particular form of organized religion, although they strongly recommended that some religious fellowship be found by their participants. By religion they mean an experience which they personally know and which has saved them from their slavery, when psychiatry and medicine failed. "They agree that each man must have his own way of conceiving God, but of God Himself they are utterly sure, and their stories of victory in consequence are a notable addition to William James' `Varieties of Religious Experience.' "Throughout the book has the accent of reality and is written with unusual intelligence and skill, humor and modesty mitigating what could easily have been a strident and harrowing tale." Our own Bishop of Texas, the Rt. Rev. Clinton S. Quin, heartily endorses Alcoholics Anonymous as follows: "I do not know that I have had more than my share of alcoholics through my ministry, but I certainly have had a whole lot. I have said to everyone of them,. `You can be cured if you will do what I tell you to do,' and around the country and particularly in this state, I have the evidence. "Of course, I was only the instrument--all I did was point the way. This new group of Alcoholics Anonymous are on the right track, and I want to express my appreciation to them for coming to Houston. The Houston Press has providentially done a real service to this city by publicizing this cure. "Mind you, it doesn't cost anything in dollars and cents--there are no membership dues--no officers. It is all very interesting and very real. Like any other new or old idea, when you yourself have experimented with it and found it to be true, you are enthusiastic about it, and I want to register my deepest interest in what follows." The Alcoholic Foundation Alcoholics Anonymous has no formal organization. Correspondence is carried on by the Alcoholic Foundation, Box 658, Church Street Annex Post Office, New York City. The Alcoholic Foundation receives royalties and profits from the sale of the book and occasional gifts. Of the Alcoholic Foundation and Works Publishing Company the book says in part: "To receive these inquiries, to administer royalties from this book and such other funds as may come to hand, a Trust has been created known as the Alcoholic Foundation. Three Trustees are members of Alcoholics Anonymous, the other four are well-known business and professional men who have volunteered their services. The Trust states that these four(who are not of Alcoholics Anonymous) or their successors, shall always constitute a majority of the Board of Trustees. "We must frankly state, however, that under present conditions, we shall be unable to reply to all inquiries, as our members, in their spare time, may attend to most of the correspondence. Nevertheless we shall strenuously attempt to communicate with those men and women who are able to report that they are staying sober and working with other alcoholics. Once we have such an active nucleus, we can then perhaps refer to them those inquiries which originate in their respective localities. Starting with a small but active centers created in this fashion, we are hopeful that fellowships will spring up and grow very much as they have among us. "The Alcoholic Foundation is our sole agency of its kind. We have agreed that all business engagements touching on our alcoholic work shall have the approval of its trustees. People who state they represent the Alcoholic Foundation should be asked for credentials and if unsatisfactory, these ought to be checked with the Foundation at once. We welcome inquiry by scientific, medical and religious societies. "This volume is published by the Works Publishing Company, organized and financed mostly by small subscriptions by our members. This company donates royalty and a profit from each copy of `Alcoholics Anonymous' to the Alcoholic Foundation." In closing, three slogans from the book will be understood by those who have closely followed the series. They are: "First things first"; "Live and let live"; and "Easy does it." They are all old and seem tame; but when applied with this spiritual method of living, they pack dynamite. And they bring happiness! THE TWELVE STEPS The Alcoholic Foundation is already in receipt of many letters from men who report that, though isolated from the various Fellowships, they have been able to recover by rigorously following the steps described in our book "Alcoholics Anonymous." Even more surprising has been the fact that a number have reported recovery from reading magazine and newspaper articles briefly sketching our approach. These results gave us the idea which lies behind this booklet. Realizing that some families might not at first buy "Alcoholics Anonymous," we became convinced that a booklet of this nature could set many alcoholics on the Broad Highway to health. The fifth article of the foregoing series is entitled "12 Stages to Overcome Alcoholism" which, for lack of space, "Mr. Anonymous" was obliged to condense. Since many of us have found close adherence to the "12 Steps" desirable, we think the alcoholic reader would like to know just what these are. Quoting now from the book------ "Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a Program of Recovery: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him praying only for the knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and practice these principles in all our affairs. Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection." TO THE DOCTOR Physicians who know our work first hand almost uniformly endorse it, but the doctor who is not acquainted with us would naturally like to have the opinion of a brother practitioner who has actually seen results. Here follows a paper written by a physician who, specializing in alcoholism for many years, has watched our growth from the day it began. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3769. . . . . . . . . . . . Disease Model From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2006 1:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a question, well probably a few of them. What is the history of the use of the term disease in relation to alcoholism in AA? When did alcoholism become classified as a disease? I know that Dr. Bob used the disease model in relation to alcoholism in order to emphasize what alcoholism was and what it was like. But, I do not know if he pushed the disease model as it is today. Can anyone help here? tmd ___________________________________________ Note from the moderator: There are a number of historical facts that need to be noted in order to give a good answer to this question. Mrs. Marty Mann and her proteges, like Sgt. Bill S., worked to popularize the disease concept in order to counter the prevailing punitive attitude toward alcoholism. If alcoholism was simply a matter of will power, then the way to treat alcoholics was to punish them and scold them until they shaped up and stopped drinking that way. That was the way most people in the U.S. thought in 1939. But if alcoholism was a "disease" or illness or malady, then you had to give the person the proper kind of treatment to heal the alcoholism instead of simply threatening them with worse and worse punishments. That was one of the big issues involved in the history of the dispute over this issue during the 1940's. Dr. Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies was opposed at first to calling alcoholism a "disease" and wanted to call it an "illness" instead. That was another issue involved in the early dispute over this issue. Jellinek (and the American Medical Association) were eventually persuaded to use the term disease instead of the term illness, but the debate continued, and still continues today. Dr. William D. Silkworth (see the Doctor's Opinion in the Big Book) tried to use an analogy between alcoholism and the allergic reaction (to things like bee stings and strawberries, and so on) because the reaction increases and becomes stronger and stronger over time. That is, alcoholics undergo some sort of physiological change in their reaction to alcohol which is purely physical, and increasingly becomes greater and greater, the more alcohol they are exposed to. Modern physicians would see this as a progressive change in the way our bodies metabolize alcohol, and a progressive change in the structures of the brain as it attempts to deal with problems of how to walk in a straight line, and so on, rather than the kind of histamine reaction which we see in most things that are called "allergies," but there may still be a useful analogy there. I hope that some of the members of the group can help fill in some of the other historical facts surrounding this issue, and the way it developed during the early years of AA. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3770. . . . . . . . . . . . The Texas Pamphlet 1940 (Part 7) From: Jim M . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/29/2006 7:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A NEW APPROACH TO PSYCHOTHERAPY IN CHRONIC ALCOHOLISM W. D. Silkworth, M.D.+ New York, New York Reprinted from The Journal-Lancet, Minneapolis July, 1939, Vol. LIX, No. 7, page 312 ____________________________________ The beginning and subsequent development of a new approach to the problem of permanent recovery for the chronic alcoholic has already produced remarkable results and promises much for the future. This statement is based on five years of close observation. As this development is one which has sprung up among alcoholic patients themselves and has been largely conceived and promoted by them, it is felt that this new treatment can be reported freely and objectively. The central idea is that of a fellowship of ex-alcoholic men and women banded together for mutual help. Each member feels duty bound to assist alcoholic newcomers to get upon their feet. These in turn work with still others, in an endless chain. Hence there is a large growth possibility. In one locality, for example, the fellowship had but three members in September 1935; eighteen months later the three had succeeded with seven more. These ten have since expanded to over three hundred.* It is much more than a sense of duty, however, which provides the requisite driving power and harmony so necessary for success. One powerful factor is that of self-preservation. These ex-alcoholics frequently find that unless they spend time in helping others to health, they cannot stay sober themselves. Strenuous, almost sacrificial work for other sufferers is often imperative in the early days of their recovery. This effort proceeds entirely on a good will basis. It is an avocation. There are no fees or dues of any kind, nor do these people organize in the ordinary sense of the word. + Physician in charge, Chas. B. Town's Hospital, 293 Central Park West, New York City. * Dr. Silkworth's article was published July, 1939. We have taken the liberty of bringing his figures on our growth up to the present date. (April 1940). These ex-alcoholic men and women number about five hundred. One group is scattered along the Atlantic seaboard with New York as a center. Another, and somewhat larger body, is located in the Middle West. Many walks of life are represented, though business and professional types predominate. The unselfishness, the extremes to which these men and women go to help each other, the spirit of democracy, tolerance and sanity which prevails, are astonishing to those who know something of the alcoholic personality. But these observations do not adequately explain why so many gravely involved people are able to remain sober and face life again. The principal answer is: Each ex-alcoholic has had, and is able to maintain, a vital spiritual or "religious" experience. This so called "experience" is accompanied by marked changes in personality. There is always, in a successful case, a radical change in outlook, attitude and habits of thought, which sometimes occurs with amazing rapidity, and in nearly all cases these changes are evident within a few months often less. That the chronic alcoholic has sometimes recovered by religious means is a fact centuries old. But these recoveries have been sporadic, insufficient in numbers or impressiveness to make headway with the alcoholic problem as a whole. The conscious search of these ex-alcoholics for the right answer has enabled them to find an approach which has been effectual in something like half of all cases upon which it has been tried. This is a truly remarkable record when it is remembered that most of them were undoubtedly beyond the reach of other remedial measures. The essential features of this new approach, without psychological embellishment are: 1. The ex-alcoholics capitalize upon a fact which they have so well demonstrated, namely: that one alcoholic can secure the confidence of another in a way and to a degree almost impossible at attainment by a non-alcoholic outsider. 2. After having fully identified themselves with their "prospect" by a recital of symptoms, behavior, anecdotes, etc., these men allow the patient to draw their own inference that if he is seriously alcoholic, there may be no hope for him save a spiritual experience. They cite their own cases and quote medical opinion to prove their point. If the patient insists he is not alcoholic to that degree, they recommend he try to stay sober in his own way. Usually, however, the patient agrees at once. If he does not, a few more painful relapses often convince him. 3. Once the patient agrees that he is powerless, he finds himself in a serious dilemma. He sees clearly that he must have a spiritual experience or be destroyed by alcohol. 4. This dilemma brings about a crisis in the patient's life. He finds himself in a situation which, he believes, cannot be untangled by human means. He has been placed in this position by another alcoholic who has recovered through a spiritual experience. This particular ability, which an alcoholic who has recovered exercises upon one who has not recovered, is the main secret of the unprecedented success which these men and women are having. They can penetrate and carry conviction where the physician or clergyman cannot. Under these conditions, the patient turns to religion with an entire willingness and readily accepts, without reservation, a simple religious proposal. He is then able to acquire much more than a set of religious beliefs; he undergoes the profound mental and emotional change common to religious "experience." (See William James' Varieties of Religious Experience ). Then, too, the patient's hope is renewed and his imagination is fired by the idea of membership in a group of ex-alcoholics where he will be enabled to save lives and homes of those who have suffered as he has suffered. 5. The fellowship is entirely indifferent concerning the individual manner of spiritual approach so long as the patient is willing to turn his life and his problems over to the care and direction of his Creator. The patient may picture the Deity in any way he likes. No effort what ever is made to convert him to some particular faith or creed. Many creeds are represented among the group and the greatest harmony prevails. It is emphasized that the fellowship is non-sectarian and that the patient is entirely free to follow his own inclination. Not a trace of aggressive evangelism is exhibited. 6. If the patient indicates a willingness to go on, a suggestion is made that he do certain things which are obviously good psychology, good morals and good religion, regardless of creed: a. That he make a moral appraisal of himself, confidentially discuss his findings with a competent person whom he trusts. b. That he try to adjust bad personal relationships, setting right, so far as possible, such wrongs as he may have done in the past. c. That he recommit himself daily, or hourly if need be, to God's care and direction, asking for strength. d. That, if possible, he attend weekly meetings of the fellowship and actively lend a hand with alcoholic newcomers. This is the procedure in brief. The manner of presentation may vary considerably, depending upon the individual approached, but the essential ingredients of the process are always much the same. When presented by an ex-alcoholic, the power of this approach is remarkable. For a full appreciation one must have seen the work and must have known these patients before and after the change. Considering the presence of the religious factor, one might expect to find unhealthy emotionalism and prejudice. This is not the case however; on the contrary, there is an instant readiness to discard old methods for new ones which produce better results. For instance, it was early found that usually the weakest approach to an alcoholic is directly through his family or friends, especially if the patient is drinking heavily at the time. The ex-alcoholic frequently insists, therefore, that a physician first take the patient in hand, placing him in a hospital whenever possible. If proper hospitalization and medical care is not carried out, the patient faces the danger of delirium tremens, "wet brain" or other complications. After a few days' stay, during which time the patient has been thoroughly detoxicated, the physician brings up the question of permanent sobriety and, if the patient is interested, tactfully introduces a member of the ex-alcoholic group. By this time the prospect has self-control, can think straight, and the approach to him is made casually, with no intervention by his family or friends. More than half of this fellowship have been so treated. The group is unanimous in its belief that hospitalization is desirable, even imperative, in most cases. What has happened to these men and women? For years, physicians have pursued methods which bear some similarity to these outlined above. An effort is made to procure a frank discussion with the patient, leading to self-understanding. It is indicated that he must make the necessary re-adjustment to his environment. His co-operation and confidence must be secured. The objectives are to bring about extraversion and to provide someone to whom the alcoholic can transfer his dilemma. In a large number of cases, this alcoholic group is now attaining these very objectives because their simple but powerful devices appear to cut deeper than do other methods of treatment for the following reasons: 1. Because of their alcoholic experiences and successful recoveries they secure a high degree of confidence from their prospects. 2. Because of this initial confidence, identical experience, and the fact that the discussion is pitched on moral and religious grounds, the patient tells his story and makes his self-appraisal with extreme thoroughness and honesty. He stops living alone and finds himself within reach of a fellowship with whom he can discuss his problems as they arise. 3. Because of the ex-alcoholic brotherhood, the patient, too, is able to save other alcoholics from destruction. At one and the same time, the patient acquires an ideal, a hobby, a strenuous avocation, and a social life which he enjoys among other ex-alcoholics and their families. These factors make powerfully for his extraversion. 4. Because of objects aplenty in whom to vest his confidence, the patient can turn to individuals to whom he first gave his confidence, the ex-alcoholic group as a whole, or the Deity. It is paramount to note that the religious factor is all important even from the beginning. Newcomers have been unable to stay sober when they have tried the program minus the Deity. The mental attitude of these people toward alcohol is interesting. Most of them report that they are seldom tempted to drink. If tempted, their defense against the first drink is emphatic and adequate. To quote from one of their number, once a serious case at this hospital, but who has had no relapse since his "experience" five and one-half years ago: "Soon after I had my experience, I realized I had the answer to my problem. For about three years prior to December 1934 I had been taking two and sometimes three bottles of gin a day. Even in my brief periods of sobriety, my mind was much on liquor, especially if my thoughts turned toward home, where I had bottles hidden on every floor of the house. Soon after leaving the hospital, I commenced to work with other alcoholics. With reference to them, I thought much about alcohol, even to the point of carrying a bottle in my pocket to help them through sever hangovers. But from the moment of my first experience, the thought of taking a drink myself hardly ever occurred. I had the feeling of being in a position of neutrality. I was not fighting to stay on the water wagon. The problem was removed; it simply ceased to exist for me. This new state of mind came about in my case at once and automatically. About six weeks after leaving the hospital my wife asked me to fetch a small utensil which stood on a shelf in our kitchen. As I fumbled for it, my hand grasped a bottle, still partly full. With a start of surprise and gratitude, it flashed upon me that not once during the past weeks had the thought of liquor being in my home occurred to me. Considering the extent to which alcohol had dominated my thinking, I call this no less than a miracle. During the past four years of sobriety I have seriously considered drinking only a few times. On each occasion, my reaction was one of fear, followed by the reassurance which came with my new found ability to think the matter through, to work with another alcoholic, or to enter upon a brief period of prayer and meditation. I now have a defense against alcoholism which is positive so long as I keep myself spiritually fit and active, which I am only too glad to do." Another interesting example of reaction to temptation comes from a former patient, now sober four and one-half- years. Like most of these people, he was beyond the reach of psychiatric methods. He relates the following incident: "Though sober now for several years, I am still bothered by periods of deep depression and resentment. I live on a farm, and weeks sometimes pass in which I have no contact with the ex-alcoholic group. During one of my spells I became violently angry over a trifling domestic matter. I deliberately decided to get drunk, going so far as to stock my guest house with food, thinking to lock myself in when I had returned from town with a case of liquor. I got in my car and started down the drive, still furious. As I reached the gate I stopped the car, suddenly feeling unable to carry out my plan. I said to myself, `At least I have to be honest with my wife.' I returned to the house and announced I was on my way to town to get drunk. She looked at me calmly, never saying a word. The absurdity of the whole thing burst upon me and I laughed. And so the matter passed. Yes, I now have a defense that works. Prior to my spiritual experience I would never have reacted that way." The testimony of the membership as a whole sums up to this: For the most part, these men and women are now indifferent to alcohol, but even when the thought of taking a drink does come, they react sanely and vigorously. The alcoholic fellowship hopes to extend its work to all parts of the country and to make its methods and answers known to every alcoholic who wishes to recover. As a first step, they have prepared a book called Alcoholics Anonymous . A large volume of 400 pages, it sets forth their methods and experience exhaustively, and with much clarity and force. The first half of the book is a text aimed to show an alcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he may follow to effect his own recovery. He then finds full directions for approaching and working with other alcoholics. Two chapters are devoted to family relations and one to employers for the guidance of those who surround the sick man. There is a powerful chapter addressed to the agnostic, as the majority of the present members were of that description. Of particular interest to the physician is the chapter on alcoholism dealing mostly with its mental phenomena, as these men see it. By contacting personally those who are getting results from the book these ex-alcoholics expect to establish new centers. Experience has shown that as soon as any community contains three or four active members, growth is inevitable, for the good reason that each member feels he must work with other alcoholics or perhaps perish himself. Will the movement spread? Will many of these recoveries be permanent? No one can say. Yet, we at this hospital, from our observation of many cases, are willing to record our present opinion as a strong "Yes" to both questions. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3771. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease Model From: Billlwhite@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2006 8:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A chronology of the disease concept and a quite exceptional paper by Ernie Kurtz on AA and the disease concept are posted at http://www.bhrm.org/papers/addpapers.htm Bill White In a message dated 10/5/2006 12:15:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, timderan@msn.com writes: > Subj: [AAHistoryLovers] Disease Model > Date: 10/5/2006 12:15:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time > From: timderan@msn.com > Reply-to: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com > Sent from the Internet > > > > I have a question, well probably a few of them. > > What is the history of the use of the term disease > in relation to alcoholism in AA? > > When did alcoholism become classified as a disease? > > I know that Dr. Bob used the disease model in relation > to alcoholism in order to emphasize what alcoholism was > and what it was like. But, I do not know if he pushed > the disease model as it is today. > > Can anyone help here? > > tmd > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3772. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Disease Model From: John Lee . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/5/2006 1:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ernest Kurtz, a regular contributor to this site, has published a comprehensive monograph on the history of AA and the disease concept. It's called " Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism." The essay is available on the Internet, at the Primary Purpose Group website of Spartanburg, South Carolina: (http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/reading.htm) It's a sublink under "Recommended Readings": http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/literature/AAandDiseaseConcept-Kurtz.pdf The term "disease" is found in several Big Book stories, and in some of the newer pamphlets of AA. The term "disease" is only used once in the first eleven chapters of Big Book, and that's in the context of "spiritual disease". Newcomers from treatment centers are usually transfixed by the term "disease". john lee pittsburgh ________________________________________ timderan wrote: I have a question, well probably a few of them. What is the history of the use of the term disease in relation to alcoholism in AA? When did alcoholism become classified as a disease? I know that Dr. Bob used the disease model in relation to alcoholism in order to emphasize what alcoholism was and what it was like. But, I do not know if he pushed the disease model as it is today. Can anyone help here? tmd IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3773. . . . . . . . . . . . Question about AA''s link to Science of Mind From: mama.duck . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/30/2006 2:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi everyone! I'm hoping to learn more about the history of AA. I have a sister-in-law who is big into Science of Mind. My husband is in Al-Anon and the three of us often have conversations that find phrases and wording to be so similar that I once spoke up about it. She told me that, and I can't remember exactly what she said, but in a nutshell she credits Science of Mind for the start of AA. I have limited knowledge of the history of AA but I've never heard any connection to Science of Mind. Does anyone know what I'm talking about or have any info about this? Thanks a bunch! mama duck IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3774. . . . . . . . . . . . Science of Mind, New Thought, and AA From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2006 6:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Religious Science (also known as Science of Mind), founded in 1927 by Ernest Holmes (1887-1960), was one version of the NEW THOUGHT movement. It was the New Thought movement as a whole (and not just this one version) which had a major effect on early AA. New Thought was a religious movement originally stemming from the ideas of Phineas Parkhurst "Park" Quimby (1802-1866). From his study of hypnotism and the effect of placebos on disease, he came to the conclusion that the way we think can have a profound effect both on creating physical illness and healing physical illness. The NEW THOUGHT movement which developed out of Quimby's ideas pointed to the way our ideas and attitudes actually created the world we lived in. If I view the world as a hostile place full of people trying to do me harm, I will eventually live in a world filled with people who are trying to do me harm. If I view the world with seething resentments, I will create a world around me where I will increasingly find more and more things to resent. But if I view the world around me as filled with mostly good people, and if I regard the world with love and forgiveness towards all, I will increasingly find myself living in a world filled with good and loving people who treat me with kindness and tolerance. (1) Religious Science (Science of Mind), the group your sister-in-law is involved with, was one of the New Thought churches which developed out of Quimby's ideas. See their web site at http://www.religiousscience.org/ (2) Unity Church is the largest New Thought group at present, with over two million members in over fifteen different countries. See their web site at http://www.unity.org/ (3) Divine Science is another New Thought group. See their web site at http://divinescience.com/ EMMET FOX (1886-1951) was a famous Divine Science minister. Early AA members went to hear him preach at New York's Church of the Healing Christ. Fox's book "The Sermon on the Mount" was especially influential in early AA and widely recommended reading for newcomers. JAMES ALLEN, "As a Man Thinketh" (see http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html for Mel B.'s edition of this little book) was another important New Thought book which was widely recommended reading for AA newcomers during the early period. Emmet Fox's book and James Allen's book both appeared on the recommended reading list for AA newcomers used in early Akron AA. This is important, because it makes it clear that the New Thought movement was just as influential on early Akron (midwestern) AA as it was on early New York (east coast) AA. ______________________________ NEW THOUGHT and SWEDENBORGIANISM Warren Felt Evans was one of the first individuals who wrote seriously on the teachings of Phineas Quimby. Evans was also the one who took the important step of integrating the philosophies of Quimby and Swedenborg. The presence of certain Swedenborgian elements in New Thought may have been one of the things which made New Thought so congenial to Bill and Lois Wilson (Lois had been brought up as a Swedenborgian). ______________________________ OTHER RELATED IDEAS (a) Norman Vincent Peale (author of "The Power of Positive Thinking") openly admitted the deep influence of New Thought on his ideas. (b) Dale Carnegie (author of "How to Win Friends and Influence People") presented a sort of secularized version of New Thought principles. (c) "A Course in Miracles" is based heavily on the sort of ideas which appear in New Thought. (d) The Canadian psychiatrist Dr. Richard Maurice Bucke (1837-1902), published a book called "COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS" in 1901, just a year before his death. There are ideas in his book which are very similar to New Thought concepts. Mel B. told me that when he spoke with Bill Wilson in 1956, Bill recommended that he read Bucke's book, and told him how important an influence it had been on his ideas. ______________________________ You said that your sister-in-law "credits Science of Mind for the start of AA." That would be overdoing it a little. AA started out as part of the Oxford Group, not as part of a New Thought group. From the Oxford Group, early AA got its understanding that only acts of divine grace can produce real psychic change. AA also got the substance of a good many of the twelve steps from the Oxford Group, including the ideas of confession and restitution (making amends). The Oxford Group was the most important source of ideas for early AA. But early AA got important ideas from the New Thought movement also. A good many of Bill W.'s statements about the nature of God in the Big Book are cast in New Thought terminology. The same thing could be said about the second most published AA author, Richmond Walker, in "Twenty-Four Hours a Day." The focus in the Big Book on removing resentment and fear from our lives (in the fourth through seventh steps) is very much a kind of New Thought approach to spirituality. By removing the disturbances in our thoughts, we will heal our lives at every level. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) ______________________________ APPENDIX 1: UNITY CHURCH BELIEFS Five basic Unity Church principles: 1. There is only one Presence and one Power active as the universe and as my life, God the Good. 2. Our essence is of God; therefore, we are inherently good. This God essence was fully expressed in Jesus, the Christ. 3. We are co-creators with God, creating reality through thoughts held in mind. 4. Through prayer and meditation, we align our heart-mind with God. Denials and affirmations are tools we use. 5. Through thoughts, words and actions, we live the Truth we know. What are the basic tenets of the Unity teachings? 1. God, Divine Mind, is the Source and Creator of all. There is no other enduring power. The nature of God is absolute good; therefore, all manifestations partake of good. What is called "evil" is a limited or incomplete expression of God or good. Evil's origin is ignorance. 2. We are spiritual beings, ideas in the Mind of God, created in God's image and likeness. The ideal expression for every human being is the pattern every person is seeking to bring forth. Each individual manifests the Christ in his or her own unique fashion. The perfect expression of the Christ is, therefore, different for each person. 3. Jesus was a special person in history who expressed perfection and thereby became the Christ, or Jesus Christ. He was a Teacher who demonstrated the importance of thoughts, words, and deeds in shaping the life and world of the individual. 4. Jesus' teaching was based on prayer, which to Him was conscious communion with God. Preparation for prayer involves the use of the spoken word, the creative power of God, which is made practical through denials and affirmations. Unity teaches that repeated use of statements of Truth (denials and affirmations) establishes right patterns of thinking, feeling, and acting. This is one way individuals use the creative power of God to take dominion over mind, body, and affairs. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - APPENDIX 2: RELIGIOUS SCIENCE (SCIENCE OF MIND) BELIEFS The Science of Mind is built on the theory that there is One Infinite Mind which of necessity includes all that is, whether it be the intelligence in man, the life in the animal, or the invisible Presence which is God. In it we learn to have a spiritual sense of things. The Science of Mind is intensely practical because it teaches us how to use the Mind Principle for definite purposes, such as helping those who are sick, impoverished, or unhappy. Each one of us should learn to become a practitioner of this science, a demonstrator of its Principle, a conscious user of its Power. Power already exists, but the existence of Power is of no particular value to us until we use it. We must not only be conscious of Power, but we must be actively conscious of it. This is one of the first lessons we learn in the Science of Mind. Religious Scientists believe, very simply, that the Universe is fundamentally spiritual -- it has intelligence, purpose, beauty and order. Whether we call it God, spirit, energy, or Universal Intelligence, every person, place and thing emanates from this spiritual universe. We believe this Universal Intelligence is within us, as well as around us, and that we are conscious of it. The way of life we teach and practice is learning how to live in accordance with spiritual principles. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - APPENDIX 3: DIVINE SCIENCE BELIEFS God is all, both invisible and visible. One Presence, One Mind, One Power is all. This One that is all is Perfect Life, Perfect Love, and Perfect Substance. Man is the individualized expression of God and is ever one with this Perfect Life, Perfect Love, and Perfect Substance. Life is Continuous. It proceeds from Divine Life, which is Good in all its manifestations. There is only one Power in the Universe, the Power we call God. There is no evil except that which is man-made. The normal state of man is abounding health. The Divine Purpose is to express the Joy of Life. The foundation truth of Divine Science is that limitless Being, God [Good], is equally present everywhere and is the ALL of everything. God is pure Spirit, absolute, changeless, eternal, manifesting in all creation. "God is everywhere, therefore God is here. What God is is everywhere, therefore what God is is here." If Good is omnipresent, what becomes of evil? What happens to the darkness which fills a room when the light is turned on? The darkness does not move out and go somewhere else, it simply does not exist in the presence of light. Darkness is not a reality, it is merely the absence of light. In the same way when the individual thought is centered upon the omnipresence of good, evil thought does not move out and continue to exist elsewhere; it simply becomes nonexistent. Evil has no reality within itself; it can have existence only so long as an individual supports it by his belief in it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3775. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Science of Mind, New Thought, and AA From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2006 9:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Folks, Glenn has written an excellent summary of New Thought here. If anybody is interested in pursuing this subject further, I recommend "Spirits in Rebellion," by Charles S. Braden, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, 1963. It can probably be obtained by library loan or it's possible a copy can be purchased on the Internet. Braden, a longtime professor of history and literature of religions at Northwestern University, really covers the waterfront in detailing the rise and development of New Thought. The best New Thought book, in my opinion, is Emmet Fox's "The Sermon on the Mount." "As A Man Thinketh" by James Allen is a small book that really gets to the basics of the importance of thought. There are many others, and I've observed that AA members can use them profitably to supplement and reinforce what we have in AA. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) _________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Chesnut" Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 6:22 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Science of Mind, New Thought, and AA Religious Science (also known as Science of Mind), founded in 1927 by Ernest Holmes (1887-1960), was one version of the NEW THOUGHT movement. It was the New Thought movement as a whole (and not just this one version) which had a major effect on early AA. New Thought was a religious movement originally stemming from the ideas of Phineas Parkhurst "Park" Quimby (1802-1866). From his study of hypnotism and the effect of placebos on disease, he came to the conclusion that the way we think can have a profound effect both on creating physical illness and healing physical illness. The NEW THOUGHT movement which developed out of Quimby's ideas pointed to the way our ideas and attitudes actually created the world we lived in. If I view the world as a hostile place full of people trying to do me harm, I will eventually live in a world filled with people who are trying to do me harm. If I view the world with seething resentments, I will create a world around me where I will increasingly find more and more things to resent. But if I view the world around me as filled with mostly good people, and if I regard the world with love and forgiveness towards all, I will increasingly find myself living in a world filled with good and loving people who treat me with kindness and tolerance. (1) Religious Science (Science of Mind), the group your sister-in-law is involved with, was one of the New Thought churches which developed out of Quimby's ideas. See their web site at http://www.religiousscience.org/ (2) Unity Church is the largest New Thought group at present, with over two million members in over fifteen different countries. See their web site at http://www.unity.org/ (3) Divine Science is another New Thought group. See their web site at http://divinescience.com/ EMMET FOX (1886-1951) was a famous Divine Science minister. Early AA members went to hear him preach at New York's Church of the Healing Christ. Fox's book "The Sermon on the Mount" was especially influential in early AA and widely recommended reading for newcomers. JAMES ALLEN, "As a Man Thinketh" (see http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html for Mel B.'s edition of this little book) was another important New Thought book which was widely recommended reading for AA newcomers during the early period. Emmet Fox's book and James Allen's book both appeared on the recommended reading list for AA newcomers used in early Akron AA. This is important, because it makes it clear that the New Thought movement was just as influential on early Akron (midwestern) AA as it was on early New York (east coast) AA. ______________________________ NEW THOUGHT and SWEDENBORGIANISM Warren Felt Evans was one of the first individuals who wrote seriously on the teachings of Phineas Quimby. Evans was also the one who took the important step of integrating the philosophies of Quimby and Swedenborg. The presence of certain Swedenborgian elements in New Thought may have been one of the things which made New Thought so congenial to Bill and Lois Wilson (Lois had been brought up as a Swedenborgian). ______________________________ OTHER RELATED IDEAS (a) Norman Vincent Peale (author of "The Power of Positive Thinking") openly admitted the deep influence of New Thought on his ideas. (b) Dale Carnegie (author of "How to Win Friends and Influence People") presented a sort of secularized version of New Thought principles. (c) "A Course in Miracles" is based heavily on the sort of ideas which appear in New Thought. (d) The Canadian psychiatrist Dr. Richard Maurice Bucke (1837-1902), published a book called "COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS" in 1901, just a year before his death. There are ideas in his book which are very similar to New Thought concepts. Mel B. told me that when he spoke with Bill Wilson in 1956, Bill recommended that he read Bucke's book, and told him how important an influence it had been on his ideas. ______________________________ You said that your sister-in-law "credits Science of Mind for the start of AA." That would be overdoing it a little. AA started out as part of the Oxford Group, not as part of a New Thought group. From the Oxford Group, early AA got its understanding that only acts of divine grace can produce real psychic change. AA also got the substance of a good many of the twelve steps from the Oxford Group, including the ideas of confession and restitution (making amends). The Oxford Group was the most important source of ideas for early AA. But early AA got important ideas from the New Thought movement also. A good many of Bill W.'s statements about the nature of God in the Big Book are cast in New Thought terminology. The same thing could be said about the second most published AA author, Richmond Walker, in "Twenty-Four Hours a Day." The focus in the Big Book on removing resentment and fear from our lives (in the fourth through seventh steps) is very much a kind of New Thought approach to spirituality. By removing the disturbances in our thoughts, we will heal our lives at every level. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) ______________________________ APPENDIX 1: UNITY CHURCH BELIEFS Five basic Unity Church principles: 1. There is only one Presence and one Power active as the universe and as my life, God the Good. 2. Our essence is of God; therefore, we are inherently good. This God essence was fully expressed in Jesus, the Christ. 3. We are co-creators with God, creating reality through thoughts held in mind. 4. Through prayer and meditation, we align our heart-mind with God. Denials and affirmations are tools we use. 5. Through thoughts, words and actions, we live the Truth we know. What are the basic tenets of the Unity teachings? 1. God, Divine Mind, is the Source and Creator of all. There is no other enduring power. The nature of God is absolute good; therefore, all manifestations partake of good. What is called "evil" is a limited or incomplete expression of God or good. Evil's origin is ignorance. 2. We are spiritual beings, ideas in the Mind of God, created in God's image and likeness. The ideal expression for every human being is the pattern every person is seeking to bring forth. Each individual manifests the Christ in his or her own unique fashion. The perfect expression of the Christ is, therefore, different for each person. 3. Jesus was a special person in history who expressed perfection and thereby became the Christ, or Jesus Christ. He was a Teacher who demonstrated the importance of thoughts, words, and deeds in shaping the life and world of the individual. 4. Jesus' teaching was based on prayer, which to Him was conscious communion with God. Preparation for prayer involves the use of the spoken word, the creative power of God, which is made practical through denials and affirmations. Unity teaches that repeated use of statements of Truth (denials and affirmations) establishes right patterns of thinking, feeling, and acting. This is one way individuals use the creative power of God to take dominion over mind, body, and affairs. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - APPENDIX 2: RELIGIOUS SCIENCE (SCIENCE OF MIND) BELIEFS The Science of Mind is built on the theory that there is One Infinite Mind which of necessity includes all that is, whether it be the intelligence in man, the life in the animal, or the invisible Presence which is God. In it we learn to have a spiritual sense of things. The Science of Mind is intensely practical because it teaches us how to use the Mind Principle for definite purposes, such as helping those who are sick, impoverished, or unhappy. Each one of us should learn to become a practitioner of this science, a demonstrator of its Principle, a conscious user of its Power. Power already exists, but the existence of Power is of no particular value to us until we use it. We must not only be conscious of Power, but we must be actively conscious of it. This is one of the first lessons we learn in the Science of Mind. Religious Scientists believe, very simply, that the Universe is fundamentally spiritual -- it has intelligence, purpose, beauty and order. Whether we call it God, spirit, energy, or Universal Intelligence, every person, place and thing emanates from this spiritual universe. We believe this Universal Intelligence is within us, as well as around us, and that we are conscious of it. The way of life we teach and practice is learning how to live in accordance with spiritual principles. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - APPENDIX 3: DIVINE SCIENCE BELIEFS God is all, both invisible and visible. One Presence, One Mind, One Power is all. This One that is all is Perfect Life, Perfect Love, and Perfect Substance. Man is the individualized expression of God and is ever one with this Perfect Life, Perfect Love, and Perfect Substance. Life is Continuous. It proceeds from Divine Life, which is Good in all its manifestations. There is only one Power in the Universe, the Power we call God. There is no evil except that which is man-made. The normal state of man is abounding health. The Divine Purpose is to express the Joy of Life. The foundation truth of Divine Science is that limitless Being, God [Good], is equally present everywhere and is the ALL of everything. God is pure Spirit, absolute, changeless, eternal, manifesting in all creation. "God is everywhere, therefore God is here. What God is is everywhere, therefore what God is is here." If Good is omnipresent, what becomes of evil? What happens to the darkness which fills a room when the light is turned on? The darkness does not move out and go somewhere else, it simply does not exist in the presence of light. Darkness is not a reality, it is merely the absence of light. In the same way when the individual thought is centered upon the omnipresence of good, evil thought does not move out and continue to exist elsewhere; it simply becomes nonexistent. Evil has no reality within itself; it can have existence only so long as an individual supports it by his belief in it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3776. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Question about AA''s link to Science of Mind From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/6/2006 9:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mama Duck, Glenn has given you a good answer re "The Science of Mind" and I added a brief comment to it. We can't credit that book with starting AA but I'm sure it was a great help for many of the early members. Attending New Thought meetings in New York City and other places, I discovered that many AA members are also drawn to them. Marty M., one of the first women to get sober in AA, told me that her two best teachers were Bill W. and Raymond Charles Barker, a Religious Science minister in New York City. How did you ever get a name like Mama Duck? Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) ----- Original Message ----- From: "mama.duck" To: Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Question about AA's link to Science of Mind > Hi everyone! I'm hoping to learn more about the > history of AA. > > I have a sister-in-law who is big into Science of Mind. > My husband is in Al-Anon and the three of us often have > conversations that find phrases and wording to be so similar > that I once spoke up about it. > > She told me that, and I can't remember exactly what she > said, but in a nutshell she credits Science of Mind for > the start of AA. > > I have limited knowledge of the history of AA but I've > never heard any connection to Science of Mind. Does > anyone know what I'm talking about or have any info > about this? > > Thanks a bunch! mama duck IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3777. . . . . . . . . . . . History site "Silkworth.net" website now off line -- Why? From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2006 5:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dear AA Friends, Does anyone know why one of my favorite sites, www.silkworth.net, has gone offline? http://www.silkworth.net/ What sort of infringements are they speaking of below? Did GSO have anything to do with this? Thanks for your answer. Bob Stonebraker _______________________________________ SILKWORTH.NET IS OFFLINE TILL FURTHER NOTICE. Please except my apologies for any copyright infringements that may have occurred. silkworth.net was created strictly for carrying the message of Alcoholics Anonymous in hopes that it may have been of useful help to even a single individual and nothing more. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3778. . . . . . . . . . . . C. J. Brockwell From: Lance . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/8/2006 3:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would love to learn more about CJ Brockwell! He was my sponor's sponsor! He was born in 1891 in Brooklyn NY and was "reborn" into our fellowship in 1935. He was referred to as "AA number 6". Please contact me with any information! All is well here in Colorado Springs AA. HUGS!!! Lance from colorful Colorado! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3779. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History of "the Twelve Promises" From: Lawrence W. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2006 9:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII timderan wrote: I have another question. Does anyone know the history of that section of the Big Book on Pages 83 and 84 that so many call the Promises? tmd ______________________________________ FROM LARRY W. (South Bend, Indiana) According to my sponsor there is a promise of sorts after every step. The twelve promises were put in place to help others see the rewards of working the steps. He was there with his sponsor, Dr. Bob. There was also an argument about whether there are 12 promises, or 13. The sentence before reads "As God's people we stand on our feet, we don't crawl before anyone." It was thought that was a promise also. Anyway since 10, 11, and 12 are maintenance and sharing the program steps, they wanted the promises to be after the ninth step. Larry W. ______________________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn C., South Bend): Larry's sponsor was Ernie G. (the second Ernie, from Toledo), one of the good old timers from early Akron AA. See "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers," pp. 141, 148, 175, 226, 235, 253, 256, 258, 265, 300, 312-313. Ernie sponsored Larry in Adrian, Michigan. Larry says that the young man mentioned on p. 258 was not him however, because the date (1977) would be wrong for that. The first time Larry saw Ernie, he was astounded, because, he said, "He just seemed to glow with light." For most of what Ernie taught him, Ernie would say, "my sponsor told me." Larry finally asked who his sponsor had been, and Ernie said, "Why, Doctor Bob." That is why Larry's information is of great historical importance. Since Dr. Bob wrote almost nothing down, we are dependent on the witness of those who were taught by him, in our attempts to determine how he interpreted the message. The Tuesday night meeting in Osceola, Indiana, which Larry attends, reads the Twelve Promises as thirteen statements, beginning with "As God's people we stand on our feet; we don't crawl before anyone." Larry says that one of the first things Ernie said to him was, "You don't need to betray yourself any longer." Those two statements go together, as an important part of the tradition stemming from Dr. Bob and the original Akron A.A. group. We can also see it coming out in Clarence Snyder and many other of the good old timers from that part of Ohio. Larry was the one who brought me into the program. "Shorty" in his email address is a joke. He is 6 feet 6 inches tall (a full two meters tall in his cowboy boots). Glenn C. South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3780. . . . . . . . . . . . AA International Conventions - a list of all of them? From: righteousthug . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/7/2006 4:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Should be an easy one for all you 'old pros', but I haven't been able to come up with a complete list of all our AA International Conventions. Could someone please assist w/ a list of the years and host cities? Thank you! /rt 6/14/88 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3781. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA International Conventions - a list of all of them? From: tomper87 . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2006 5:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AA International Conventions 1st 1950 Cleveland, OH 2nd 1955 St. Louis, MO 3d 1960 Long Beach, CA 4th 1965 Toronto, CAN 5th 1970 Miami, FL 6th 1975 Denver, CO 7th 1980 New Orleans, LA 8th 1985 Montreal, CAN 9th 1990 Seattle, WA 10th 1995 San Diego, CA 11th 2000 Minneapolis, MN 12th 2005 Toronto, CAN 13th 2010 San Antonio, TX --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "righteousthug" wrote: > > Should be an easy one for all you 'old pros', but I haven't been able > to come up with a complete list of all our AA International Conventions. > > Could someone please assist w/ a list of the years and host cities? > > Thank you! > > /rt > 6/14/88 > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3782. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: History site "Silkworth.net" website now off line -- Why? From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2006 6:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have an e-mail into Jim M., the owner of Silkworth.net asking about what happened. Due to the nature of the announcement on the site regarding so-called copyright infringement, I would think that the legal team at AAWS, Inc. has been spending your money again silencing AA members. Jim did not change the message in any way. I am sure that AAWS, INC wasn't making any MONEY off of the Silkworth site and since they are protecting their PROPERTY, they used their PRESTIGE to threaten or actually sue the Silkworth site. Who is next? Maybe the History Lovers group? maybe all the other AA related sites on the net? Maybe only the ones with links to those who speak out against what is going on at AA HQ? I've been sharing info with someone on another site who contacted Mr. Jasper at AAWS and Mr. Jasper denies that AAWS had anything to do with the court case in Germany or Mexico despite what documents already prove. I'm sure that they will feign no knowledge of what has happened to Silkworth.net. Who is next? Who else will fall under the hatchet of the governing body in NYC? > Dear AA Friends, > > Does anyone know why one of my favorite sites, > www.silkworth.net, has gone offline? > > http://www.silkworth.net/ > > What sort of infringements are they speaking of > below? Did GSO have anything to do with this? > > Thanks for your answer. > > Bob Stonebraker > > _______________________________________ > > SILKWORTH.NET IS OFFLINE TILL FURTHER NOTICE. > > Please except my apologies for any copyright > infringements that may have occurred. silkworth.net > was created strictly for carrying the message of > Alcoholics Anonymous in hopes that it may have > been of useful help to even a single individual > and nothing more. > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3783. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: C. J. Brockwell From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2006 7:03:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I met Charlie Brockwell several times. Nell Wing and I had many conversations about Charlie and the veracity of his claims. She didn't remember Charlie in any of the documents..but...who knows? --- Lance wrote: > I would love to learn more about CJ Brockwell! He > was my sponor's > sponsor! He was born in 1891 in Brooklyn NY and was > "reborn" into > our fellowship in 1935. He was referred to as "AA > number 6". Please > contact me with any information! > All is well here in Colorado Springs AA. > HUGS!!! Lance from colorful Colorado! > > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3784. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: AA International Conventions - a list of all of them? From: William Middleton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2006 8:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My Friend, Tomper87: And, Atlanta, Georgia, July 2-6, 2015! "Y'all Come!" Respectfully, Bill Middleton Area 16 2015 International Bid Committee tomper87 wrote: AA International Conventions 1st 1950 Cleveland, OH 2nd 1955 St. Louis, MO 3d 1960 Long Beach, CA 4th 1965 Toronto, CAN 5th 1970 Miami, FL 6th 1975 Denver, CO 7th 1980 New Orleans, LA 8th 1985 Montreal, CAN 9th 1990 Seattle, WA 10th 1995 San Diego, CA 11th 2000 Minneapolis, MN 12th 2005 Toronto, CAN 13th 2010 San Antonio, TX IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3785. . . . . . . . . . . . C. J. Brockwell photos From: Lance Weldgen . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2006 10:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mitchell! I have 2 photos and a percil art sketch of done by my (now deceased) sponsor. If you'd like I can email them to you...let me know. My sponsor had CJ as his sponsor. He was AA number 6. Looking forward to hearing back! Thank you. Lance Weldgen Colorado Springs formerly Chico, CA ______________________________ PLEASE SEND REQUESTS DIRECTLY TO LANCE AT: lance_1954@yahoo.com (lance_1954 at yahoo.com) THE YAHOO SYSTEM PENDING MESSAGE LIST HAS NO "FORWARD" BUTTON. Glenn C. (Moderator) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3786. . . . . . . . . . . . Ninth Step Promises. From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/9/2006 7:49:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There are many more Promises in the Basic Text for Alcoholics Anonymous than those referred to as the "Ninth Step Promises." And there are more than twelve of them..Let's count. (1) If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are half way through. (2)We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness. (3)We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. (4)We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace. (5) No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others. (6)That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear. (7)We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. (8)Self-seeking will slip away. (9)Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change. (10)Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us. (11)We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us. (12)We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves. Are these extravagant promises? We think not. (13)They are being fulfilled among us - sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. (14)They will always materialize if we work for them. In God's love and service, Cliff Bishop cbbb164@aol.com Home (214) 350-1190 Cell (214) 352-5371 _www.ppgaadallas_ (http://www.ppgaadallas/) .org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3787. . . . . . . . . . . . History of "the Twelve Promises" From: ROGER WHEATLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2006 2:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THis may be semantics, but I am intrigued by this discussion and the credit given to the oral history tracing this 12 vs. 13 promises back to Dr. Bob and early Akron AA. I have heard many versions throughout the years, perhaps because much of our history is oral and our reliance on healing through storytelling. When I moved to Europe, the group in Belgium, the SHAPE Group, at the NATO Headquarters in Mons read the promises beginning with that phrase. I have travelled around and seen AA done enough different ways, all successful that there is little in format I gripe about anymore if the spirit of AA is present. However, this struck me as odd because this takes the last sentence of a paragraph above it and uses it for an introduction to the next paragraph completely out of context. While i dont doubt the validity of the claim that early AAs discussed 12 vs. 13 promises, I doubt the author/authors or those helping Bill in the editing process meant this as a promise. By the structure in fact I tend to doubt that they anticipated they would be numbered at all by us who arrived later. There is a strikingly similar paragraph in Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount listing a group of promises or metaphysical outcomes if you practice some simple spiritual principles, but for the life of me I cannot find the page number this evening. Roger W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3788. . . . . . . . . . . . How far in advance are host cities chosen? From: Jim Burns . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2006 2:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII How far in advance are host cities being selected (at this point in AA history) for international conventions? Thank you, Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3789. . . . . . . . . . . . Silkworth.net website now on line again From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2006 10:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been in and out of this site all day. Sure looks like "Silkworth.net" to me. http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/historyaa.html Jim S. _________________________________ FROM THE MODERATOR: It was in fact off for a while, but does appear to be back online again today. I checked the site's home page http://silkworth.net/ and it came up O.K., and I can't see anything important missing. Also the site map at http://silkworth.net/sitemap.html seems to be working just fine. I think we're all a good deal relieved to have that excellent source of AA historical material up and going again. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3790. . . . . . . . . . . . Ninth Step Promises and "the Dark Promises" From: Bob Wilson . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2006 6:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII And then there are some dark promises: *He will presently try the old game again, for he isn't happy about his sobriety. *Some day he will be unable to imagine life either with alcohol or without it. *Then he will know loneliness such as few do. *He will be at the jumping-off place. *He will wish for the end. And these too lead toward sobriety. Best to all, Bob W. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3791. . . . . . . . . . . . Amends (over the silkworth.net issue) From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2006 9:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I must make immediate amends to the group especially Jon M. for rushing to judgement. I violated my own rules not to listen to rumors and due to many phone calls, e-mails and other forms of communication I accused AAWS, INC of shutting down the Silkworth.net site. I spoke with the owner of the Silkworth site this evening (Tuesday) at length and he assured me that AAWS had nothing to do with the site being shut down. He also assured me that the site will be up and running again shortly. Again, my apologies to all. Mitchell Klein IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3792. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How far in advance are host cities chosen? From: William Middleton . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/10/2006 3:29:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Jim: When San Antonio was chosen, it was 10 years in advance. Atlanta had to withdraw its bid for the 2010 International because the Seventh Day Adventists had notified the Atlanta Convention Bureau of their interest in the July dates in 2010. They decided to come to Atlanta. So GSO sent the bids for 2015, 12 years in advance. This is from a GSO letter to our Delegate: "Timeline of Site Selection Process January 10, 2003 - Bid Questionnaires received from Convention Bureaus. February 1, 2003 - All bids are reviewed by the trustees' Committee on International Conventions and those not meeting minimum criteria are eliminated and notified. April 26, 2003 - A 10 minute bid presentation by one representative of the Convention Bureau (8 minutes) and the area delegate (2 minutes) is made to the Convention Site Selection Committee in New York City. Those cities not selected as finalists are notified. July - September, 2003 - Convention Site Selection Team visits the three potential site cities. November, 2003 - The General Service Board selects a site city for the 2015 International Convention." I just reread all of this and think that I built a watch when you asked for the time, Sorry! LOVE and HUGs! Bill Middleton Jim Burns wrote: How far in advance are host cities being selected (at this point in AA history) for international conventions? Thank you, Jim --------------------------------- Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3793. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Internationals -- how many attended each? From: ROGER WHEATLEY . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2006 5:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thank you for this list of AA International Conventions. Do any of you History Lovers know the attendance records for each of these events? I often get a chuckle from listening to conversations where the actual attendance numbers are reported and keep growing and growing each time the story is told, kind of like a fishing story or a my bottom was worse than yours story. I have heard 60,000, 85,000, and 1 million being shared at AA gatherings by well intentioned people trying to share the magnitude of these gatherings. I believe they are shared in Grapevines after each, and I don't think we have in reality quite broken 50,000 registered. Any help would be appreciated. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3794. . . . . . . . . . . . The first AA gratitude dinner From: Diz Titcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2006 8:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know when the first Gratitude dinner was held and where? I was wondering if it was the dinner for Dr. Silkworth or did they have one for Bill earlier? Diz T. Tallahassee [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3795. . . . . . . . . . . . Free copies of 1st edit., 1st prnt. Big Book From: duckiewdj . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/13/2006 11:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII It is my understanding that the first Edition, first printing of the Big Book (Red Hard Back), there were some free copies mailed out to certain people such as Doctors and Stock Holders etc. The question is, "Is there such a list of the mailing available?" Also can you tell how many copies have turned up as of this date? I am trying to validate the copy I have and want to see if this is one that was originally sent out. If you can help or direct me to someone who could help I would be very grateful. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3796. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The first AA gratitude dinner From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/16/2006 6:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not sure if this falls under Gratitude Dinner but there was an appreciation dinner held in honor of Dr. Bob in Cleveland (October 1941). Post 3754 gives some details. Mitchell > > Does anyone know when the first Gratitude dinner > was held and where? I was wondering if it was the > dinner for Dr. Silkworth or did they have one for > Bill earlier? > > Diz T. > Tallahassee > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3797. . . . . . . . . . . . Five Best Books Behind 12 Step Recovery From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/18/2006 1:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mel B., Toledo, Ohio "The Five Best Books Behind 12 Step Recovery" Inspired by the longtime success of Alcoholics Anonymous, 12 Step societies are now available to deal with a wide spectrum of human problems and addictions. There is Al-Anon for relatives and friends of alcoholics, Narcotics Anonymous for hard-drug addicts, Gamblers Anonymous for compulsive gamblers, Overeaters Anonymous for persons with eating disorders, and numerous other fellowships patterned after the original AA model. These self-help groups are so popular that they can even be parodied on TV for guaranteed laughs. How did it all start? The primary founder of AA was an alcoholic named Bill W., who got sober in 1934 and then linked up with an Akron, Ohio, physician, Dr. Bob S., to launch the fellowship. Most of their principles came from the Oxford Group, a spiritual movement later known as Moral Re-Armament and today called Initiatives of Change. Certain books were also important for AA's success, and the five best are listed here. ______________________________ The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James Longmans, Green and Co., 1902 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Based on James' Gifford Lectures on Natural Religion given at Edinburgh in 1901-1902, this ponderously written book was handed to AA founder Bill W. while he was hospitalized following what turned out to be his final binge. Despite the difficulty of reading James' weighty prose, Bill W. gleaned from the book three essentials that he later wove into the 12 Steps. James had argued that various conversion experiences could have validity and value, and had cited case histories to make the point. Wilson observed that each person studied had met complete defeat in a controlling area of life, had acknowledged this defeat, and had reached a new state of consciousness by appealing to a Higher Power. This process had resulted in positive outcomes. One of the cases cited by James was that of S.H. Hadley, whose conversion experience had lifted him from the life of a homeless alcoholic to find permanent sobriety and become a leader in the famous Water Street Mission founded by Jerry McAuley, another ex-drunk. Just before reading James' book, Wilson had undergone a spiritual experience of his own, and it helped immensely to have such a change ratified by James, often acknowledged as the father of American psychology. ______________________________ Twice-Born Men, by Harold Begbie Fleming H. Revell Company, 1909 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Long before "born again" became a household term, British journalist Harold Begbie discovered that a number of seemingly hopeless alcoholics in London had been restored to sobriety and useful living through the evangelizing work of The Salvation Army. It so amazed him that he presented their personal stories in this book dedicated to William James. As Begbie saw it, the humble work of the Salvationists had achieved recoveries that were beyond the reach of legislators and social workers. "There is no medicine, no Act of Parliament, no moral treatise, and no invention of philanthropy which can transform a man radically bad into a man radically good," he wrote. "If the State, burdened and shackled by its hordes of outcasts and sinners, would march freely and efficiently to its goal, it must be at the hands of religion that relief is sought. Only religion can perform the miracle which will convert the burden into assistance. There is nothing else; there can be nothing else." In 1923 Begbie published "More Twice-Born Men," describing spiritual changes in what became known as the Oxford Group, the parent society of AA. It was the Oxford Group's success in helping alcoholics that led to the formation of AA. It's also very likely that Begbie's first book helped inspire this work. This close connection makes it certain that the Oxford Group members were familiar with "Twice Born Men" and were convinced that its approach was the solution to alcoholism. ______________________________ The Common Sense of Drinking, by Richard R. Peabody Little, Brown, and Company, Boston, 1937 (from earlier papers copyrighted in 1930 and 1931) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Richard R. Peabody, a member of the distinguished Boston family, was an alcoholic who recovered in the Boston Emmanuel Movement, a successful spiritual program operating under a unit of the Episcopal Church. He became a lay therapist specializing in treating alcoholics and trained several others in his methods. Working first in Boston and then in New York City, he helped gain acceptance of alcoholism as an illness rather than a sin or a result of weak will power. He also promoted the suggestion that alcoholism was partly the result of an inborn physical cause, a view that has standing today with medical professionals in the field. Peabody emphasized "surrender" and "honesty" as basic requirements for recovery, as does AA today. He had no group support system, however, and his form of lay therapy did not survive beyond the 1950s. But his understanding of alcoholism influenced doctors who worked in the field, and his book appears to have been used by Bill W. in writing AA's basic text. ______________________________ The Sermon on the Mount, by Emmet Fox HarperCollins, New York, 1934 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Emmet Fox was a New York minister who attracted a large following from 1931 until his death in 1951. Bill W. and other AA pioneers attended his lectures in the late 1930s and used this book as a practical guide in facing personal problems. Like Norman Vincent Peale and others who followed, Fox emphasized the necessity for maintaining a positive mental attitude, finding daily guidance through prayer, releasing resentments, and forgiving others -- all practices that are current in AA today. His book was a staple at many early AA meetings until the society developed its own basic text. ______________________________ Alcoholics Anonymous (four editions) Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. New York, 1939, 1955, 1976, 2001. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Called the "Big Book" in AA parlance, this is virtually sacred text in the 12 Step Movement. It was first published in 1939 when the society had about 100 members and it continues to be the basic guidebook for AA activity. Its publication led to the rapid formation of AA groups throughout North America. More than 24 million copies of its four editions have been sold and it is now available in 52 languages. A portion of its Fifth Chapter, which includes the 12 Steps, is read at almost every AA meeting in the U.S. and other countries. Almost unchanged over the years have been the first 164 pages, which cover Bill W.'s story and the society's explanation of alcoholism and how to recover. Personal stories make up the rest of the book, and these have been changed with each edition to provide a variety of recovery experiences. The AA society, first part of the Oxford Group, acquired its own name from the book and became fully independent in late 1939. It would be difficult to exaggerate the importance of the book to AA members. Copies of the first printing of the first edition now fetch as much as $7 thousand on the used-book market. Other 12 Step fellowships either use the Big Book or have patterned their own basic texts after it. ______________________________ Mel B., Toledo, Ohio melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) Walk In Dry Places website: http://www.walkindryplaces.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3798. . . . . . . . . . . . City Sequence of AA Growth From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/20/2006 9:50:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have a list of when Alcoholics Anonymous groups were started on a city-by-city basis? I'm sure someone was sticking pins in a map of the United States. It would be interesting to know the sequence in which those pins were added. The same could be done country-by-country. I picture the growth of AA as something like the spread of a new strain of virus. (I'm not calling AA a "virus" but it is a useful concept to study.) When did AA reach each major population and how fast did it grow in each of those "colonies" once it was there? If known, "the begats" would be interesting showing the path of propagation of AA from one city to another. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3799. . . . . . . . . . . . AA in the Arabic world From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2006 12:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Middle East Regional Committee of Alcoholics Anonymous (MERCAA) at http://aainarabia.junomaritime.com/index.html There have been some questions recently about AA in the Arabic world and questions about the Big Book in Arabic (AAWS published a translation in 1990). This website contains information about AA in a number of Middle Eastern countries: ABU DHABI AL AIN BAHRAIN CAIRO DUBAI EGYPT IRAQ JORDAN KUWAIT LEBANON OMAN QATAR SAUDI ARABIA SHARJAH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3800. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: City Sequence of AA Growth From: Trysh Travis . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/21/2006 9:04:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'd like to second this call for information on city-by-city growth, and I think the virus image is a useful one. In *Not-God,* Kurtz talks about the role that salesmen played in spreading the word of AA in early days, especially before there was a lot of official literature. It would be great to know more about who carried the message from place to place-- to know not only when the pins went into the map (to extend the image used earlier), but how different places served as proverbial switching points for AA ideas. Wally P's *But for the Grace of God* gives some information that can be used to re-create this picture -- for instance, the first group was formed in Dallas (my hometown!) in 1943 when Ralph B. was transferred from Detroit to Dallas and Esther E. moved up to Dallas from Houston (p.98). AA in Houston and in Detroit was begun by people who carried the message to those towns straight from Cleveland and Akron, so we can see a clear through-line from the Good Old-Timers in Ohio on into Dallas. Not all of Wally P.'s entries have the kind of information necessary to make these connections, but I think his book and some local histories, if combined, would yield the beginnings of the "map" we need. Trysh T. ny-aa@att.net wrote: > Does anyone have a list of when Alcoholics Anonymous groups > were started on a city-by-city basis? I'm sure someone was > sticking pins in a map of the United States. It would be > interesting to know the sequence in which those pins were > added. The same could be done country-by-country. > > I picture the growth of AA as something like the spread > of a new strain of virus. (I'm not calling AA a "virus" > but it is a useful concept to study.) When did AA reach > each major population and how fast did it grow in each of > those "colonies" once it was there? If known, "the begats" > would be interesting showing the path of propagation of > AA from one city to another. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3801. . . . . . . . . . . . Bob P. From: Carter Elliott . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/23/2006 11:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Friends of Bob Pierson (sp?), former trustee and GSO "many things", will be happy to know he's recovering from a stroke (which he had two weeks ago) at his Idaho home. Carter E. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3802. . . . . . . . . . . . Online and web-paged groups From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/24/2006 2:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi again, As I continue to sort through the early history of AAs online and online AA, I have come across the claim that "the West Baltimore group [was] the first home group with a page on the internet. We went up on June 26, 1994." Any challengers out there? And if Al's claim is accurate, who was second? And when? And, perhaps, why? Primarily Twelfth-Stepping? Or perhaps a new way to provide such services as informing current AAs of meeting times, places, and other resources? Did such early service come via a group conscience or by way of one or a few enthusiastic and technically adept individuals? And . . . would anyone care to join in opining how to tell when "AAs online" became "online AA"? ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3803. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob P. From: Mark Everett . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2006 8:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From the 1969 General Service Conference Report "Robert P_______ ... was elected to the General Service Board in July 1968. He had his last drink in 1961. He is a director of the Grapevine Corporate Board, as well as of A. A. W. S., Inc. He was chairman of the Public Information Committee of the New York Intergroup and is a former president of the Fairfield County (Conn.) Council on Alcoholism. He is an executive with Shell Oil Company." Just to learn a bit more about one of our trusted servants. ************************************************** Mark Everett 517 Cherry Hill Lane Lebanon, Ohio 45036-7608 Phone: (513) 228-0078 Cell: (513) 850-4911 eFax: (267) 851-2083 e-mail: mark@go-concepts.com ************************************************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3804. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W. and Dr. Bob Play in NYC From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2006 8:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.billwanddrbob.com/index.htm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3805. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bob P. From: Wendi Turner . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/24/2006 1:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is there an email address for Bob or his familly, some place to send a card and/or email well wishes??? ----- Original Message ----- From: Carter Elliott To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 8:14 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bob P. Friends of Bob Pearson, former trustee and GSO "many things," will be happy to know he's recovering from a stroke (which he had two weeks ago) at his Idaho home. Carter E. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3806. . . . . . . . . . . . Help with historic New York City AA photos From: Al Welch . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2006 10:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Looking for photos of buildings of A.A. interest in the New York City area for the following page: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/historic%20sites.htm For the following buildings: Calvary Church/House 21st and Park Ave 30 Vesey Street 415 Lexington Ave. 141 E. 44th Street 315 E 45th Street 468 Park Avenue 38 Livingstonm St Thanks for any help! Al Welch welch@a-1associates.com (welch at a-1associates.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3807. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Online and web-paged groups From: t . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/25/2006 11:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In about 1996 or so I put up a schedule for the Show Me group in Denton, Texas. It was just one page with the schedule and 'how to find us' info. I had links to it from an AA history site I had up at the time. I didn't have links back to my site on that individual page, but the viewers could easily use the BACK button on their browser unless they went there directly from a saved bookmark. Several other groups already had sites up, with schedules and basic AA info by then. My experience at the time was that most of them were put up by individual members rather than by groups themselves. I brought my own up at a group conscience meeting [after it was already up], and the basic reaction was 'go ahead' with no real discussion. At that time, few at my local group had been exposed to computers and the internet. As some of those sites began to introduce more information [some from GSO and some from other sources], along with personal experiences/opinions ... well then some were discussed at the group conscience and 'talked to'. Some members and groups had problems with their schedules being on the Free sites [Geocities for one] that pasted random ads on the pages. The person who began posting my homegroups schedule after I quit ... well he was 'talked to' about having it branch off of, and link back to, his daughters Brittney Spears pages. Later he was again 'talked to' about anonymity, when he started posting announcements and snippets from our business and group conscience meetings along with the group's phone list. __________________________________ Ernest Kurtz wrote: "As I continue to sort through the early history of AAs online and online AA, I have come across the claim that 'the West Baltimore group [was] the first home group with a page on the internet. We went up on June 26, 1994.' Any challengers out there? And if Al's claim is accurate, who was second? And when? And, perhaps, why?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3808. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: City Sequence of AA Growth From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/28/2006 10:30:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tom E. = ny-aa@att.net (ny-aa at att.net) posted a message asking: "Does anyone have a list of when Alcoholics Anonymous groups were started on a city-by-city basis?" We have had people write in, telling us the date at which the first AA meeting was started in specific cities like Bisbie, Arizona, and Marion, Ohio. This doesn't help though, because this isn't a list showing how AA grew and spread in that part of the country. What Tom was looking for was an organized list which would give the dates of the first AA group formed for hundreds and hundreds of cities, so he could compare the dates. To the best of my knowledge, there is at present no list of this sort for the entire U.S. and Canada which would take us down to 1945 and afterwards. And certainly no list of groups listed in chronological order which would take us down to 1960 or later. It seems to me that the only practical way to assemble such a list would be to begin by gathering information on individual cities and communities on a state-by-state basis. For the early period, I have been assembling that kind of information for the state of Indiana: http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html This list is not complete, and we are still gathering information. It is clear however that there were three axes of growth in early Indiana AA. One axis extended from Evansville in the SW to Indianapolis in the center to Fort Wayne in the NE. Most of the rest of the AA groups in the state grew off of this axis. In particular, John D. "J. D." Holmes (the tenth person to get sober in AA) in Evansville and Doherty Sheerin in Indianapolis were in continual telephone contact, and had it organized so that J. D. would travel by car or train every weekend to help get AA groups started and distribute AA literature throughout much of the state. Another totally separate axis ran along the St. Joseph river valley, in north central Indiana and southwestern Michigan. This produced a number of AA leaders (like Brownie and Nick Kowalski) who are still remembered to this day. AA groups from surrounding states make pilgrimages to South Bend every year to honor the memory of Brownie and Nick in particular. A third axis ran from Chicago through Gary to South Bend. The early black AA leaders along that axis were in continual contact with one another, and helped black AA groups grow. This is still true to this day. A number of Indiana AA's finest leaders have come from cities along that axis. I believe that this is the kind of information and analysis that Tom E. is looking for. I am hoping that we will be able to fill in more detail during the years ahead, but it takes a number of people all over a state to produce a state history. One person cannot do it alone. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3809. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Science of Mind, New Thought, and AA From: LES COLE . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2006 1:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All: On this subject, I suggest that the old book VARIETIES OF RELIGEOUS EXPERIENCES by Wm. James might interest you. I am reading it for the first time based on the knowledge that this is the book given to Bill Wilson (by Ebby Thacher) when Bill was in Towns Hospital prior to his "flash" experience. Reportedly, Bill had a lot of interest in this book. It is very "heady" reading but full of beautiful prose, and deep and comprehensive interpretations. Although first written by James for lectures at Edinburgh University back in 1902-3 period, his thoughts are very profound and meaningful today. His review (connections) between major theological/psycholgical beliefs is very challenging and interesting. I can see how many things of which James wrote, could have influenced Bill Wilson in prepaing the AA philosophy and "Big Book". It is also interesting that James was raised in a family which related to (practiced) the Swedenborg type of religion. That is identified in the Introduction to the VARIETIES... book. Lois Wilson's family was also raised in the same a relgious atmosphere. As history buffs, these old facts have interesting relationships. Regards to all on this web, Les Cole Colorado Springs, CO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3810. . . . . . . . . . . . What are the Warranties? From: man_dred . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2006 5:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII What are the six warranties? FROM THE MODERATOR: I believe that you are referring to one of the Twelve Concepts for World Service which are printed as part of the AA Service Manual. I'm counting seven of them instead of six. Someone please let me know if I've got this wrong! In the 2004-2005 edition, Concept Twelve says: General Warranties of the Conference: [1] in all its proceedings, the General Service Conference shall observe the spirit of the A.A. Tradition, taking great care that the Conference never becomes the seat of perilous wealth or power; [2] that sufficient operating funds, plus an ample reserve, be its prudent financial principle; [3] that none of the Conference Members shall ever be placed in a position of unqualified authority over any of the others; [4] that all important decisions be reached by discussion vote, and, whenever possible, by substantial unanimity; [5] that no Conference action ever be personally punitive or an incitement to public controversy; [6] that though the Conference may act for the service of Alcoholics Anonymous, it shall never perform any acts of government; [7] and that, like the Society of Alcoholics Anonymous which it serves, the Conference itself will always remain democratic in thought and action. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3811. . . . . . . . . . . . Death of Charles B. From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/28/2006 6:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My sponsor,Harry The Wino,called me this afternoon and told me about the death of a man he knew quite well in A.A. That man was Charles B. from Miami, Florida, and Columbus, Georgia. He was 92 and was going to celebrate 49 years of continuous sobriety on January 4th. He was a close friend to our co-founder Bill W. If you read pg. 399 of "Pass It On" you will have known about the man who had Bill flown to Miami in 1970 in his private chartered plane. That man was Charles. Bill stayed at the Miami Heart Institute which was run by Charles' son, and was under the care of Dr. Ed B., an A. A. member and cardiac surgeon. Mr B. leaves a spouse Julia who told Harry that she still has her husband's Big Red with Bill's signature and that she will treasure it always. Charles was another A. A. success story. Not just for staying sober or becoming a success in the business world, but rather for being a good husband and father and for carrying the message to others. Isn't that the best thing that can be said of any alcoholic! My prayers go out to his family and friends and I will post more information as soon as it is available. Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3812. . . . . . . . . . . . Who were Jim and Eddie the atheists? From: dave redman . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/26/2006 5:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Could someone please tell me who Jimmy or maybe Eddie the atheist was. Thank you Dave - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: If you go to the AAHistoryLovers Message Board, you can do searches for questions like this one. You just put in the words "Eddie" and "atheist" (or whatever) and ask it to search for messages containing both of those words. Some of the relevant past messages that I found this way were: See Message #3167 For the addition of God "as we understood Him" in the Twelve Steps both Jim Burwell and Hank Parkhurst (his story "The Unbeliever" appeared in the 1st ed.) are credited with being the primary influence ("AA Comes of Age" pgs 166-167). Both claimed to be atheists at the time. See also Message #3687 One of the earliest members of the first New York AA group, Jimmy Burwell was also its first "self- proclaimed atheist." Message #2337 Two alcoholics in Akron, Ohio, unsuccessfully preceded Bill Dotson for the opportunity to be AA #3: the first was a Dr McKay, the second was Eddie Reilly. Jun 11 (more likely Jun 18), Dr Bob suggested that he and Bill W work with other alcoholics. A local Minister, J C Wright, provided them with a prospect. They tried in vain, throughout the summer, to sober up Edgar (Eddie) Reilly (described as an "alcoholic atheist" and "able to produce a major crisis of some sort about every other day"). Eddie missed the chance to be AA #3 but he showed up at Dr Bob's funeral in 1950. He was sober a year and attending the Youngstown, Ohio, group. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3813. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: What are the Warranties? From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/28/2006 7:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn there are 6 warranties -- your warranty 6 and 7 are actually the 6th warranty. Shakey Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3814. . . . . . . . . . . . The Oxford Group and alcoholics From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2006 1:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII An article by J.R. Rees published in the British Journal of Inebriety in 1933 observed concerning alcoholics that "persuasion is not an effective method of treatment, but sudden and marked emotional experience seems to work," continuing: "The Oxford Group Movement, which is much to the fore at the present moment, is apparently achieving somewhat similar results." Questions: 1. Did Dr. Jung recommend the OG to Roland H., or did Roland find and choose it on his own (or on someone else's recommendation)? 2. What sources treat directly of the OG's work with alcoholics? Thanks to any who can shed light on these or related questions. ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3815. . . . . . . . . . . . FW: What are the Warranties? From: Art Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2006 12:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Corrected version (for typos) Hi Glenn You're getting ahead of the timeline sequence for the origin of the Warranties and their eventual incorporation into Concept 12. The Warranties preceded the Twelve Concepts for World Service by 7 years. The Warranties are 6 provisions of Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter which was approved by the 1955 General Service Conference subject to further approval by the historic 2nd International Convention in St Louis, MO (the "AA Comes of Age" Convention). The Convention approved the Permanent Conference Charter by resolution on July 3, 1955. Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter is a special provision compared to the other 11 articles. It was specified to ensure that the Conference would always function in the spirit of the 12 Traditions. The individual Warrantees are denoted by their ending with a semicolon and are not explicitly numbered. At times though they are referenced relative to their numerical order. For example "The AA Group" pamphlet in answering the hypothetical question "What is an AA Group?" partially answers the question with the statement "Further clarification of an AA group may be found in Warranty Six, Twelfth Concept." The Conference can change Articles 1 thru 11 of the Permanent Conference Charter by advisory action. But any change to Article 12 (the 6 Warranties) requires special action based on both the resolution under which the Permanent Conference Charter was approved by the 2nd International Convention, as well as amendments to Article 3 of the Permanent Conference Charter over the years. Conference advisory actions of 1957, 1969 and 1976 amended Article 3 so that it currently reads: "3. Conference Relation to AA: The Conference will act for AA in the perpetuation and guidance of its world services, and it will also be the vehicle by which the AA movement can express its view upon all matters of vital AA policy and all hazardous deviations from AA Tradition. Delegates should be free to vote as their conscience dictates; they should also be free to decide what questions should be taken to the group level, whether for information, discussion, or their own direct instruction. But no change in Article 12 of the Charter or in the Twelve Traditions of AA or in the Twelve Steps of AA may be made with less than the written consent of three-quarters of the AA groups, as described in the Resolution adopted by the 1955 Conference and Convention.* Footnote * This applies to the original English version only." The Resolution adopted by the 2nd International Convention has a provision stating: "AND IT IS UNDERSTOOD: That neither the Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous nor the warranties of Article XII of the Conference Charter shall ever be changed or amended by the General Service Conference except by first asking the consent of the registered AA groups of the world. [This would include all AA groups known to the general service offices around the world.] * These groups shall be suitably notified of any proposal for change and shall be allowed no less than six months for consideration thereof. And before any such Conference action can be taken, there must first be received in writing within the time allotted the consent of at least three-quarters of all those registered groups who respond to such proposal. Footnote * Resolution: It was resolved by the 1976 General Service Conference that those instruments requiring consent of three-quarters of the responding groups for change or amendment would include the Twelve Steps of AA, should any such change or amendment ever be proposed." Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter is also include in its entirety in the Resolution. The Warranties were used to define Concept 12 in its long form. The long form of the Concepts, and explanatory essays, were approved by the 1962 Conference when Bill W's manuscript "The Twelve Concepts for World Service" was approved for publication. The short form of the Concepts was approved 9 years later by the 1971 Conference. Concept 12 in its short form does not contain the leading qualifier phrase "General Warranties of the Conference." Concept 12 in its long form and Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter read: "General Warranties of the Conference: in all its proceedings, the General Service Conference shall observe the spirit of the AA Tradition, taking great care that the Conference never becomes the seat of perilous wealth or power; that sufficient operating funds, plus an ample reserve, be its prudent financial principle; that none of the Conference Members shall ever be placed in a position of unqualified authority over any of the others; that all important decisions be reached by discussion, vote, and, whenever possible, by substantial unanimity; that no Conference action ever be personally punitive or an incitement to public controversy; that, though the Conference may act for the service of Alcoholics Anonymous, it shall never perform any acts of government; and that, like the Society of Alcoholics Anonymous which it serves, the Conference itself will always remain democratic in thought and action." If you substitute the words "AA group" or "AA member" wherever it refers to the General Service Conference in the Warranties/Concept 12, it provides a magnificent guideline for each group and each member to both practice the Traditions and be a guardian of the Traditions as well. The 1976 Conference Advisory Action which expanded the provisions of Article 3 of the Permanent Conference Charter, makes any proposed change to the Steps, Traditions and Warranties a virtual impossibility even so much as adding or removing a comma. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of man_dred Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:23 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] What are the Warranties? What are the six warranties? FROM THE MODERATOR: I believe that you are referring to one of the Twelve Concepts for World Service which are printed as part of the AA Service Manual. I'm counting seven of them instead of six. Someone please let me know if I've got this wrong! In the 2004-2005 edition, Concept Twelve says: General Warranties of the Conference: [1] in all its proceedings, the General Service Conference shall observe the spirit of the A.A. Tradition, taking great care that the Conference never becomes the seat of perilous wealth or power; [2] that sufficient operating funds, plus an ample reserve, be its prudent financial principle; [3] that none of the Conference Members shall ever be placed in a position of unqualified authority over any of the others; [4] that all important decisions be reached by discussion vote, and, whenever possible, by substantial unanimity; [5] that no Conference action ever be personally punitive or an incitement to public controversy; [6] that though the Conference may act for the service of Alcoholics Anonymous, it shall never perform any acts of government; [7] and that, like the Society of Alcoholics Anonymous which it serves, the Conference itself will always remain democratic in thought and action. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3816. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: What are the Warranties? From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2006 12:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The short form of the 12 Concepts are also contained in the back of the Fourth Edition of the Big Book, on pages 574-575. The Twelfth Concept is made up of the Six Warranties. tmd IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3817. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant November Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2006 9:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Nov 1934 - Ebby T. carries message to Bill. Nov 1936 - Fitz M leaves Towns Hospital to become 'AA #3 in NY', with Bill W and Hank P. Nov 1937 - Bill and Dr. Bob compare notes in Akron. Count forty cases staying sober. Meeting of the Akron Group to consider Bill's ideas for how to expand the movement ... a book, AA hospitals, paid missionaries. Passed by a majority of 2. Nov/Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford Group. Meetings moved from T Henry and Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and other members homes. Nov 1941 - "First Mass AA Meeting" in Oklahoma City, 8 present, 1 was drunk. Nov 1945 - Bill's article called 'Those Goof Balls' published in Grapevine. Nov 1986 - Big Book published in paperback. Nov 1, 1947 - 1st AA Group in Anchorage, Alaska. Nov 1, 1963 - Reverend Sam Shoemaker dies. Nov 3, 2001 - J P Miller who wrote screenplay for "The Days of Wine and Roses" died. Nov 9, 1966 - President Johnson appoints Marty M to the 1st National Advisory Committee on Alcoholism. Nov 10, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Minneapolis. Nov 10, 2001 - 1st of 400,000 4th Edition Big Books arrives in the mail. Nov 11, 1934 - Armistice Day; Bill started drinking after dry spell, beginning of Bill's last drunk. Nov 12, 1940 - 1st AA meeting is held in Boston. Nov 13, 1939 - Bill wants to go to work at Towns Hsp, NY drunks want him to stay on as head of the movement. Nov 14, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation publishes 1st AA Bulletin. Nov 15, 1949 - Bill W suggests that groups devote Thanksgiving week to dicussions of the 12 Traditions. Nov 16, 1950 - Dr. Bob died. Nov 18, 1946 - 1st Dublin Ireland group met. Nov 21, 1939 - AA's in San Francisco hold 1st California AA meeting in the Clift Hotel. Nov 21, 1952 - Willard Richardson, past Treasurer/Chairman of Alcoholic Foundation, dies. Nov 26, 1895 - Bill W born in East Dorsett, VT. Nov 26, 1939 - Dilworth Lupton gave sermon "Mr. X and Alcoholics Anonymous". Became one of first pamphlets on AA. Nov 28, 1939 - Hank P writes Bill advocating autonomy for all AA groups. Nov 28, 1943 - Bill guest speaker San Quentin Penitentiary. (sometimes dated Dec 2, 1943) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3818. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: City Sequence of AA Growth From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2006 12:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glen wrote: To the best of my knowledge, there is at present no list of this sort for the entire U.S. and Canada which would take us down to 1945 and afterwards. You could generate a list by using the directories which date back to 1945 or 1946. I have a complete 1947 which indicates 1650 groups. Massive job to generate a list. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3819. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: City Sequence of AA Growth From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2006 10:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The path of propagation of Alcoholics Anonymous such as Glenn has developed can be quite interesting. Sometimes it was a deliberate effort by a few individuals and other times it "just growed like Topsy." Another thing that interests me is the availability of A.A. as a factor in its growth. We say that "Alcoholics Anonymous is available everywhere" but, until it started in Seattle or Dallas or Orlando, it was not available in Seattle or Dallas or Orlando. Only a few alcoholics are going to "get" the program with a mail-ordered copy of the Big Book. It is clear that the Jack Alexander article was the "Big Bang" event that distributed little colonies of A.A. around the United States in a very short interval. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3820. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Online From: Dennis . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/29/2006 1:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Re: Ernie Kurtz' question: I remembered that Box 4-5-9 had some early references to AA online and searched through my own collection and found these references: August-September 1987 (Vol. 33, No. 4) - "A.A. Comes of [Computer] Age" This article has a general focus on computers but talks about how AA's are meeting on bulletin boards and references an Oct. 1986 Grapevine article about how a member carried the message via a non-AA bulletin board to a still-suffering alcoholic. Ends on a hopeful note recognizing how computer applications will evolve and be increasingly useful and helpful in our AA work. April-May 1988 (Vol. 34, No. 2) - "List of 'On-Line' Computer Meetings Available from G.S.O." This article raises the question about whether these bulletin board meetings can fulfill the definition of an AA group as then described by the Conference group conscience. It then goes on to describe how these on-line meetings, particularly the Q-Link BBS, operate and offers that GSO has compiled a separate listing of "on-line groups" just as it has for ham radio and CB operators. April-May 1993 (Vol. 39, No. 2) - "Update: A.A.'s Log On Electronic Meetings In Growing Numbers" Provides an update on bulletin-board meetings and how they are helping members stay sober and how the message is being carried on-line. Again offers that GSO has an Electronic Meeting Directory. I realize that this doesn't directly answer Ernie's question about the earliest AA group online but it does provide some useful background. I recall talking with Frank M., GSO Archivist in the mid-'90's about early online history and shared the early online Lamplighter group history with him. He was very interested in trying to keep a historical record of AA online but recognized the difficulty of the limitations of the geographical conference structure that GSO's operate within. It certainly would be wonderful if there was searchable access to past Box -4-5-9 publications. Anyway, I hope this is helpful. Dennis Mardon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3821. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Significant November dates in AA History From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2006 2:06:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Significant Dates in AA History for November states: "Nov 1936 - Fitz M leaves Towns Hospital to become 'AA #3 in NY,' with Bill W and Hank P." Is this accurate? The following web site indicates that Fitz got sober in October 1935. Nancy Olson indicates that Fitz got sober in October (not November) of the previous year, that is, October 1935: http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Our%20Southern%20Friend It would seem unlikely that it took well over a year after Bill returned from Akron to get the third New York member. Chris Raleigh, NC ______________________________ Nancy Olson's short biography of Fitz says: "Fitz' date of sobriety was October 1935. He was Bill's second or third success at 12th stepping after he returned from Akron in 1935. The first was Hank Parkhurst ("The Unbeliever" in the 1st edition), and the second probably William Ruddell, "A Business Man's Recovery" in the 1st edition.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3822. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Online and web-paged groups From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2006 3:57:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was in an online group called Solutions that started on AOL on July 4th, 1996 at 12:06AM when the first chatroom for the group began. I later made web pages that are still up but the group became stagnant in 2001. We shared via email and had quite a few members that got sober first in this group and later joined face to face groups in their own cities. We even kept a map of the USA of where all of our members were from. http://www.aahistory.com/solutions.html http://www.aahistory.com/sol/join.html Doug B. Riverside, CA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ t wrote: > In about 1996 or so I put up a schedule for the > Show Me group in Denton, Texas. It was just one page > with the schedule and 'how to find us' info. I had > links to it from an AA history site I had up at the > time. I didn't have links back to my site on that > individual page, but the viewers could easily use the > BACK button on their browser unless they went there > directly from a saved bookmark. > > Several other groups already had sites up, with > schedules and basic AA info by then. My experience at > the time was that most of them were put up by > individual members rather than by groups themselves. > I brought my own up at a group conscience meeting > [after it was already up], and the basic reaction > was 'go ahead' with no real discussion. At that time, > few at my local group had been exposed to computers > and the internet. > > As some of those sites began to introduce more > information [some from GSO and some from other sources], > along with personal experiences/opinions ... well > then some were discussed at the group conscience and > 'talked to'. > > Some members and groups had problems with their > schedules being on the Free sites [Geocities for one] > that pasted random ads on the pages. > > The person who began posting my homegroups schedule > after I quit ... well he was 'talked to' about having > it branch off of, and link back to, his daughters > Brittney Spears pages. Later he was again 'talked to' > about anonymity, when he started posting announcements > and snippets from our business and group conscience > meetings along with the group's phone list. > > __________________________________ > > Ernest Kurtz wrote: > > "As I continue to sort through the early history of > AAs online and online AA, I have come across the > claim that 'the West Baltimore group [was] the first > home group with a page on the internet. We went up > on June 26, 1994.' Any challengers out there? And > if Al's claim is accurate, who was second? And when? > And, perhaps, why?" > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3823. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Today From: john . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2006 10:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I need the date of the 4th printing of "AA Today." john wikelius nov85@graceba.net (nov85 at graceba.net) ________________________________ NOTE FROM MODERATOR: I am assuming that John means "AA TODAY (A special publication by the AA Grapevine commemorating the 25th anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous)" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3824. . . . . . . . . . . . The Akron Reading List and "The Unchanging Friend" From: Bent Christensen . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2006 2:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi All A friend and I would like to read the books recommended in The Akron Reading List, but we have some trouble finding "The Unchanging Friend." Does anyone know if it is possible to get a copy or if it is on the Internet? In Message 1927 Glenn mentions that he tries very hard to find a copy of it; but I haven't been able to find a message mention any success :-) Warm regards Bent _________________________________ From Glenn Chesnut: http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html has a copy of the Akron Reading List (down around the middle of the webpage). The list gives, as one of its recommended readings for AA newcomers, "The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing Co., Milwaukee)." Mel B. and I both tried to find copies of this but were unsuccessful. Mel B. says that the publisher is now out of business (so we cannot check there). Mel said it seemed to be a Roman Catholic press. Since it is referred to as "a series," this suggests that it could perhaps have been a periodical (like the Upper Room) or a series of little booklets or pamphlets. Neither Mel nor I have been able to find out anything beyond this. We would like to join with Bent in asking for help from anyone who has specific information about where copies of "The Unchanging Friend" can be located. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3825. . . . . . . . . . . . The reading of "How it Works" at the beginning of meetings From: gtwaldron . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2006 1:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII 1st question: Can someone point me in the right direction as to the origin of the custom (at least for some groups) of reading "How It Works" at the beginning of meetings. 2nd question: I recently heard a story of a recovered brother sending a Big Book to a non-alcoholic sister who helped organize a meeting in LA. Does anyone know anything about this story? Any help would be appreciated. Best, Greg IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3826. . . . . . . . . . . . Required reading of the Preamble From: earlynomad . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2006 3:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is it required that the Preamble be read at every sanctioned group, and if so, is there only one version that can be read at the group? My group is looking at changing the wording of the preamble and I am against it. I would like to know if there is something according to AAWS that the wording of the preamble must be of a particular nature. Damon 01/16/2006 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3827. . . . . . . . . . . . Dr Silkworth and drug addicts: which drugs? From: Des . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/31/2006 5:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dr Silkworth specialised in alcoholism and drug addiction. Are there any records to indicate what kinds of drugs the people of that day were addicted to? Specifically, a breakdown of the different kinds of drug addictions he was treating? Is there any information confirming that he was treating people who experienced a combined problem of drug addiction and alcoholism? Des IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3828. . . . . . . . . . . . re: city to city growth From: Jeff Your . . . . . . . . . . . . 10/30/2006 11:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A careful study of People in AA History will give you a good idea how the tree branches grew, first from Akron, then Cleveland and NYC, etc.-- http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/literature/People.htm For example, we can construct a timeline for Tampa FL AA by reading about Roy Y. - Army sergeant, 1st Texan to get sober and stay sober, contacted by Larry J., later stationed in Tampa, started 1st groups on Florida's west coast. (A 24) (D 259) (P 156) then, looking at Larry J: Larry J. - newspaper man, sobered up in Cleveland, went to Houston Texas; help start Texas A.A., wrote series of 6 article Houston Press which became AA's first pamphlet "AA". (A 24) (B 295) (D 259) (L 141) All of these entries have good documentation - referencing pages in: (A) ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE (AA) (B) BILL W. by Robert Thomsen (C) CHILDREN OF THE HEALER by Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows as told to P. Christine Brewer (D) DR. BOB AND THE GOOD OLD TIMERS (AA) (E) A.A. EVERYWHERE ANYWHERE (AA) (G) GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE by Nell Wing (H) THE LANGUAGE OF THE HEART (AA) (L) LOIS REMEMBERS by Lois Wilson (N) NOT-GOD by Ernest Kurtz (P) PASS IT ON (AA) (S) SISTER IGNATIA by Mary C. Darrah (MS) Service Manual (AA) (? year/edition) (W) A.A., THE WAY IT BEGAN by Bill Pittman (BB)* BIG BOOK of ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, (AA) Hope this is a start. -- In grateful service, Jeffrey A. Your 216.691.0917 home Delegate Elect 216.397.4244 work Area 54, Panel 57 216.397.1803 fax Northeast Ohio General Service 216.496.7594 cell [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3829. . . . . . . . . . . . City to City Diffusion of AA From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 10:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There will be a panel discussion on this topic at the Fourth Multi- District History and Archives Gathering in the Harrisburg (PA) area on June 16, 2007. It was suggested as a major topic in the proposition for a new History of AA presented to the GSB in 1997 (and turned down) and was discussed at the 2006 H and A Gathering. Besides the moderator's work in Indiana, and the recent connections mentioned for Houston and Tampa, there has been work done in Eastern PA, where I live, NJ, Maryland, Virginia, Ohio (of course), and certainly in other areas. But huge amounts of work need to be done. Why has Joe F., a NJ insurance man, been given credit as a major founder in Vermont? We know that Bayard B, a Philadelphia founder, was founder on Martha's Vineyard. Salesmen out of Phila named George L. founded in Reading PA, Lebanon PA, and Scranton PA around the same time -- but they were three different George L's. Irv from Cleveland and Fitz M were major travelling founders, Irv as travelling salesman, Fitz as evangelist. Yev G was a founder in Bethlehem PA and Granden City NY. Rollie H was the "baseball founder" -- as a travelling journeyman catcher. I'd like to be in touch with anyone doing work in the area. Thanks much. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3830. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Today From: Bruce C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 11:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Bruce C., Jim S., and Shakey Mike: the 4th printing was in 1979. ---- Hi All I have a fourth printing of the AA Today that was printed in 1979. The following is from the copyright page. AA TODAY - copyright 1960 "Even before the 1960 AA International Convention, in Long Beach, Calif., where AA Today went on sale, advance orders to the Grapevine dictated a second printing. By the end of 1964 the last copy of the third printing had been sold, and AA Today became unavailable. Since then, many members have suggested that the Grapevine again reprint the book, and a sense of the meeting at the 1979 AA General Service Conference approved this project. The articles are unchanged; statistics and other facts included reflect the Fellowship as it was in 1960." Bruce C. ---- From: "Jim S." (james.scarpine at verizon.net) Fourth printing, 1979. Jim S. ---- From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) "By the end of 1964,the last copy of the 3rd printing had been sold, and AA Today became unavailable. Since then, many members have suggested that theGrapevine again reprint the book, and a sense of the meeting at the 1979 AA General Service Conference approved this project." One would think that the 4th printing would be 1979. Perhaps a member of AAHL has the 4th printing to confirm it. yis, Shakey Mike Gwirtz Phila, Pa. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3831. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: AA Online From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 7:45:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dennis wrote: > It certainly would be wonderful if there was > searchable access to past Box -4-5-9 publications. Hi Dennis, Thanks for the good AAGV article summary. AA's current archivist, Amy Filiatreau (non-alcoholic) is working to digitize much of the early information, and she says she also hopes soon to get all of Box 459 available electronically. I am now in contact with several AAs who were early online, and they are offering much helpful knowledge. The changing attitude of various people at G.S.O. to recognizing online "groups" and "meetings" is emerging as one important part of the story. I thus really appreciate your passing on of Frank M's comments, and I hope your message and this one elicit more of that kind of information. It seems important to remember that GSO is made up of individuals, and that each staff member brings to general discussion what he/she learns from contact with the grass roots of the fellowship via their particular desks. As in the general population, then, some GSO servants were enthusiastic about, others wary of, the new technology and its possibilities. I hope others will step forward to offer remembered experiences of either. ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3832. . . . . . . . . . . . Group conscience meetings From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 10:23:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A question has been posed in a different setting: "Do you have any guidelines, electronically available, on the subject of group conscience and group business meetings?. In particular the role of the Chairperson?" I trust some AAHL members will be interested in the topic; responses may also be posted directly to "JOHN e REID", (jre33756 at bigpond.net.au) Kell C, (kellcheevers at hotmail.com) or Denise H Brisbane Traditions. (jha at powerup.com.au) Thanks for this group's help. ernie kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3834. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The reading of "How it Works" at the beginning of meetings From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2006 9:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Greg asked: "2nd question: I recently heard a story of a recovered brother sending a Big Book to a non-alcoholic sister who helped organize a meeting in LA. Does anyone know anything about this story?" This is a long answer from a 2002 AA HISTORY LOVERS post by . Nancy O. Bob S. from Indiana )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sybil C., first Woman in AA West of the Mississippi From: NM Olson Sybil C. was the first woman to enter AA west of the Mississippi. Her date of sobriety was March 23, 1941. Her name at the time was Sybil Maxwell, though she later opened her talks by saying, "My name is Sybil Doris Adams Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis C., and I'm an alcoholic." She was born Sybil Doris Adams on May 20, 1908, in the small oil town of Simians, Texas. Her parents were poor but hardworking and she had a brother Herman, ten years her senior. Herman was called "Tex." Sybil adored her big brother. She remembered that when she was five and he fifteen, he would hold her and rock her to sleep. Tex joined the Army during World War I was reported missing in action, and when the family heard nothing further they assumed he was dead. However, when Sybil was thirteen they learned that he was alive and living in Los Angeles. The family immediately moved to California. Sybil felt like a misfit in Los Angeles. She affected the flapper makeup popular at the time: heavy white powder on her face, and two big red spots of rouge on her cheeks and lots of lipstick and black eyebrows. "I must have looked like a circus freak or something like that," she wailed. "I was in eighth grade out there in Los Angeles, and the other kids laughed at me. I had trouble making friends, being shy and timid by nature, but also my papa wouldn't let boys even walk home with me, let alone go to parties. I just wasn't allowed to do anything, and I knew I didn't belong anywhere. "So naturally I started drinking at a very early age, against my better judgment, full of shame and remorse because of Papa's teachings. He was a good man. When I was fifteen, I got drunk one night, passed out, and had to be carried home and put to bed in my mother's bed. I cried the next day and promised that it would never happen again -- and I meant it. But I didn't know myself, I didn't know the disease of alcoholism. The next Saturday night the kids handed me a bottle and I drank it. And I continued to do that through a couple of semesters of high school, and I stayed drunk through seventeen years of failed marriages and more jobs than I can count." Sybil dropped out of high school and took a secretarial course and was hired as a secretary. It was the first in along list of jobs. At various times she was a real estate broker, a taxi driver, a bootlegger, an itinerant farm worker, the editor of a magazine for pet owners, and a salesperson. 'I didn't mind working," she said, "but I never seemed to get anywhere. I was just on a treadmill because of booze." She had a child by her first husband, a sailor. She thought having the child would prevent her drinking, but she drank more than ever, and her parents eventually took the child from her. She and her husband hitchhiked out of town to find grape picking jobs. They thought getting away from their city friends would help them quit drinking, but she soon was drunk again. During one of her drunks she heard music. At first she thought she was hallucinating, but she followed the sound and wandered into a tent where a revival meeting was in progress. The preacher asked for anyone to come forward who wanted to be saved. "Well, that was me," Sybil told AA members. "I went all the way down while the people were singing. The preacher put his hand out and placed it on my head, and I threw up all over him. It was so terrible! I was so ashamed, I couldn't bring myself to tell anyone about it until I got into Alcoholics Anonymous eleven years later." She left her sailor husband and hitchhiked back to Los Angeles to her mother's house. Her brother, Tex, now had a speakeasy on skid row, and to make money to take to her mother to support the child, she went into the bootlegging business with him. Eventually the speakeasy was raided and they were out of business. Then she went to work in a taxi-dance hall. Little is known of her second husband, but she met her third husband, Dick Maxwell, while working in the taxi-dance hall. One night a rich, handsome stranger walked in and bought dance tickets with Sybil for the whole night. During intermission he bought several pitchers of beer (the girls got a dollar for every pitcher their partner bought), and she told him her sad story. He offered to marry her and adopt her child if she would promise not to drink any more. Now she had a wonderful husband, a home, a housekeeper, and a car. But she couldn't stop drinking. In 1939, while visiting her mother, she read the Liberty magazine article called "Alcoholics and God." She thought the story fascinating but did nothing about it and her downward spiral continued. Eighteen months later God gave her another chance, when she read the Saturday Evening Post's March 1, 1941, issue which contained the famous Jack Alexander article about AA She wrote to New York and received a reply from Ruth Hock, then Bill Wilson's secretary, who told her that there were no women members in California, but that Marty Mann was sober in New York. Ruth referred her to the small group of men then in the area. On Friday, March 23, Sybil's nonalcoholic husband, Dick Maxwell, drove her to the meeting. They found ten or twelve men seated around a table and three or four women seated against the wall. When the chairman began the meeting he announced "As is our custom before the regular meeting starts, we have to ask the women to leave." Sybil left with the other women but her husband stayed and the members assumed he was the alcoholic. When he rejoined Sybil he said "They don't know you're alive. They just went on and on bragging about their drinking until I was about to walk out, when they jumped up and said the Lord's Prayer, and here I am." Sybil headed for the nearest bar and got drunk. But she remembered the Ruth Hock had written, "If you need help, call Cliff W." and had given her his phone number. He explained: " You didn't tell us you were an alcoholic. We thought you were one of the wives. If you had identified yourself as an alcoholic, you would have been welcome as the flowers in May." When she returned the following week, Frank R. brought in a large carton full of letters bundled into bunches of twenty to fifty. He explained that they were all inquiries and calls for help from people in southern California. "Here they are! Here they are! If any of you jokers have been sober over fifteen minutes, come on up here and get these letters. We've got to get as many of these drunks as we can in here by next Friday, or they may die." The last bundle was of letters from women. Frank said: "Sybil Maxwell, come on up. I am going to put you in charge of all the women." Sybil liked the idea of "being in charge" but replied "I can't, sir. You said I have to make all those calls by next Friday, or somebody might die. Well, I'll be drunk by next Friday unless you have some magic that will change everything so I can stay sober." Frank explained that everything she needed to know was in the Big Book. "And it says right in here that when all other measures fail, working with another alcoholic will save the day. That's what you will be doing, Sybil, working with other alcoholics. You just get in your car and take your mind off yourself. Think about someone sicker than you are. Go see her and hand her the letter she wrote, and say: 'I wrote one like this last week, and they answered mine and told me to come and see you. If you have a drinking problem like I have, and if you want to get sober as bad as I do, you come with me and we'll find out together how to do it.' Don't add another word to that, because you don't know anything yet. Just go get 'em." It worked, and she never had another drink. When Bill and Lois Wilson made their first visit to Los Angeles in 1943, Sybil was one of the delegation of local AA's who met them at the Town House hotel. Later she met Marty Mann. But Dick Maxwell began to feel abandoned and lonely. He urged her to cut down on her AA activities so that they could have more of a home life. He had grown to hate AA and refused to read the Big Book or discuss the Twelve Steps. Finally he suggested that the solution to their marriage problems was for her to go back to drinking and he would take care of her. Sybil quickly packed a bag and left. She left her lovely home and rented a housekeeping room with a gas hotplate and a bath down the hall for nine dollars a week and went to work for the L.A. Times to support herself. "AA just had to come first with me," she explained. Her brother, Tex, joined the week after she did. He started the second AA group in the area, and appointed Sybil coffeemaker and greeter for the new group, and finally made her deliver her first shaky talk. When Tex died in 1952, Sybil was devastated. She wrote Bill Wilson, pouring out her grief and asked "What am I going to do, Bill? I don't crave a drink, but I think I'm going to die unless I get some answers." She said Bill's answer saved her life. He wrote: November 6, 1952 My dear Sybil, Thanks for your letter of October 21st - it was just about the most stirring thing I have read in many a day. The real test of our way of life is how it works when the chips are down. Though I've sometimes seen AAs make rather a mess of living, I've never seen a sober one make a bad job of dying. But the account you give me of Tex's last days is something I shall treasure always. I hope I can do half as well when my time comes. I am one who believes that in my Father's house are many mansions. If that were not so there couldn't be any justice. I can almost see Tex sitting on the front porch of one, right now, talking in the sunlight with others of God's ladies and gentlemen who have gone on before. I certainly agree with you that little was left in Tex's grave. All he had was left behind in the hearts of the rest of us and he carried just that same amount forward to where he is now. If you like what I've said, please read it to the Huntington Park Group. In any case, congratulate them for me that they had the privilege of knowing a guy like Tex. As for you, my dear, there is no need to give you advice. How well you understand that the demonstration is the thing, after all. It isn't so much a question of whether we have a good time or a bad time. The only thing that will be asked is what we do with the experience we have. That you are doing well with our tough lot is something for which I and many others are bound to be grateful. This is but a long day in school. Some of the lessons are hard and others are easy. I know you will keep on learning and passing what you learned. What more does one person need to know about another! Affectionately yours, /s/ Bill WGW/nw Sybil Willis 2874A Randolph Huntington Park, California The letter touched Sybil so deeply she gave many copies to people who were at a low point in life, and a few years ago someone I met at an on-line meeting sent a copy to me. At the time of the letter, she was married to Jim Willis, the founder of Gamblers' Anonymous. Sybil is perhaps best remembered as the first executive secretary of the Los Angeles Central office of AA, a position she held for twelve years. This was a turbulent time for AA, with much disunity and controversy within the groups that led to the Twelve Traditions. Sybil remembered that the groups regarded them either with opposition or indifference and the Central Office couldn't sell many copies of the Traditions pamphlet. Understandably, since Sybil began doing Twelfth Step work immediately, she took a dim view of the rigidity that crept into the requirements. Some areas required six months or even a year or sobriety before one was allowed to call on new prospects. She advised "If you don't get prospects from the Central Office, look around the meeting rooms. There is always the forgotten man or woman, nervous and scared, who would love to have you come up and shake hands. Just feel what the new person is feeling. It kept me sober, it kept my brother Tex sober, and it will keep you sober when all other measures fail." Her fifth and enduring marriage was to another AA member, Bob C. He has been described a "a high-spirited, warm, and loving man, fourteen years her junior in age and twenty-two years her junior in sobriety." "Bob and I are very happy," Sybil declared. "This has been the best years of my life." They were both enthusiastic meeting-goers and enjoyed an incredibly wide circle of AA friends. Sybil was honored at the International AA Convention in Montreal in 1985. She was then the longest-sober living woman in AA. When she was introduced to the 50,000 attendees from fifty-three countries, she told the colorful story of AA's beginning in Los Angeles, in which she had played such a vital role. When she finished her talk audience rose to its feet as one and gave her a standing ovation which continued so long that some thought it would never stop. According to one source, Sybil died about 1999. Sources: "Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery," by Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones, Joan Zieger. "Gratefull to Have Been There," by Nell Wing. Various tapes of Sybil's talks ___ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3835. . . . . . . . . . . . An online Varieties of Religious Experience group? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 2:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Robyn Mitchell just wrote in (I give her email below), and it struck me that there might be people in the group who were interested in forming a Varieties of Religious Experience web group (you can do it free through Yahoo), or who would at least be interested in exchanging emails with Robyn on this subject. And I hope that anybody who would like to point out specific ideas that Bill W. got from William James' book would send something in to the group. But if you just want to talk to Robyn personally, since the Yahoo system does not have a button for forwarding messages, please send your email directly to her at: robyn mitchell (dollyleggs1 at bigpond.com) Glenn C., Moderator ____________________________ ROBYN'S MESSAGE: From: robyn mitchell (dollyleggs1 at bigpond.com) Date: Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:52 am Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Science of Mind, New Thought, and AA I'm also reading 'Varieties' for the first time! Yesterday I mused about the probability of finding someone else who would be reading the book at the same time, I guessed that at least one of you guys would have read it recently, but didn't expect a reply to unsent mail so soon. The idea that Bill was reading this a few days off the booze enhances my experience of the text; and yes, there are several ideas that I recognise from the Big Book and a few of those are not Jamesian but are quotes/references he uses to illustrate his ideas, so it widens the circle of reading even further for me! thanks, Robyn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3836. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The reading of "How it Works" at the beginning of meetings From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/1/2006 8:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Los Angeles in 1940, see AA Comes of Age, p. 93 --- from Bob S., tom2cor134@yahoo.com>, James R., and Debbie U. Greg asked: " Can someone point me in the right direction as to the origin of the custom (at least for some groups) of reading "How It Works" at the beginning of meetings. From: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) Please read page 93 of AA COMES OF AGE. The year seems to be 1940 and a member named Mort J. insisted on reading Chapter 5 at the start of every session. This took place at the Cecil Hotel in downtown Los Angeles. I think that hotel was on Hill Street or perhaps Broadway (Near Pershing Sq. Park). It is probably torn down now, but it was still there in the 1960s. Bob S., Indiana ___________________________ ALSO FROM: "Tom" (tom2cor134 at yahoo.com) James R (jamesoddname at yahoo.com) "Debi Ubernosky" (dkuber1990 at verizon.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3837. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Required reading of the Preamble From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 9:07:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Bill Lash, John Lee, Mark Everett, Tracy Flynn, Mike S., and Debi Ubernosky - - - From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) Just so you know, the Preamble is NOT Conference Approved Literature, it is written and copyrighted by the AA Grapevine. Also, it is DEFINITELY NOT required to be read at every sanctioned group. Namaste. Just Love, Barefoot Bill - - - -----Original Message----- Message #3826 from "earlynomad" (psycoweirdo at aol.com) Is it required that the Preamble be read at every sanctioned group, and if so, is there only one version that can be read at the group? My group is looking at changing the wording of the preamble and I am against it. I would like to know if there is something according to AAWS that the wording of the preamble must be of a particular nature. Damon 01/16/2006 - - - From: John Lee (johnlawlee at yahoo.com) Damon, Each group is autonomous, and can adopt any meeting format it chooses. Since this is a history site, rather than a general AA discussion site, I think you might find it useful to go through the archives of this site and its predecessor site for postings on "preamble." My home group doesn't recite the Preamble, How It Works, the Traditions or the Steps. To save time and allow for more discussion, we just read a few paragraphs of the Big Book and let members jump in and discuss [in any order] the paragraphs read. It's a discussion meeting that actually has discussion. John Lee Member Where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela to form the Ohio - - - From: "Mark Everett" (mark at go-concepts.com) Our Traditions allow each group to be autonomous, except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole. Reading or not reading anything at a meeting is a group choice. As I have traveled around this country and gone to many meetings in many places, I have noticed that some groups read How it Works and some don't. Most groups read the Preamble, but some don't and some read other versions. The most commonly accepted version has been published every month on the inside cover of the Grapevine for many decades. It is copyrighted and I think that it deserves some protection. There are earlier versions of the Preamble from the Grapevine - including the wording "..the only requirement for membership is an HONEST desire to stop drinking." We dropped HONEST a long time ago. I have heard local variations, and each group can do what it wants. If you don't approve and can't change the group conscience, get a coffee pot and start another group. Mark Everett - - - From: tracy flynn (flynn22896 at sbcglobal.net) Hi Damon, There is no 'requirement' for any group to read, do, say anything. The only thing that is suggested is an adherence to the 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous. The Preamble is copyrighted by the Grapevine therefore legally you could not change the words and still call it the Preamble. In short, reading of the Preamble is not required, but if you do, you would have to read it as is since it is copyrighted. Hope that helps. Tracy F Chicago - - - From: Glenn C. (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) Since the present Preface is made up mostly of bits and pieces drawn from earlier sources, many of them in the public domain, I'm not at all sure it would be a copyright violation for a local group to make modifications in it, particularly as long is it is for their own group only. Most of the Preface is not original material, and you can't put a copyright ex post facto on something somebody else wrote. Otherwise, I could put a copyright on Shakespeare's Hamlet and start collecting royalties from everyone who prints or performs it. See Message 3713 on the "four fair use factors" for some of the copyright issues involved. All that being said, I have noticed that we alcoholics have a tendency to believe that we can alter the AA program in various ways because "we are so much more intelligent" than the good oldtimers, and we usually make a mess of things when we do this. There were good reasons for choosing every single word in the present Preface (based on experience) instead of some other word, if you look at the history of how it developed. But the most basic right in the entire AA program, which is repeated in letter after letter from Bill W., is "the right of the group to be wrong" (grin). And there is no rule that an AA group has to read the Preface at an AA meeting. An AA group can read anything at all that it wants to at an AA meeting, written by anybody at all, just like we have always done, going back to the 1930's, 40's, and 50's. That is an essential part of AA's Historic Heritage. - - - From: Mike S (lists at immuneit.com) If you look through the Twelve Traditions, you'll see no mention of the preamble. Read over traditions 2 and 4. Groups can largely run themselves as they see fit, and remember that AAWS is their trusted servant, not their boss. Often, groups get caught up in distractions like arguing over wording or whether to have an anniversary party, etc. Some would say its a sign of a healthy group. Don't let something like this be a wedge, but don't let those with seniority run amok either. Mike - - - From: "Debi Ubernosky" (dkuber1990 at verizon.net) 4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole. Read the long version in the 12x12 for more insight! debi the service junkie sober in Aggieland [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3838. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group conscience meetings From: Debi Ubernosky . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 3:05:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is a pamphlet available from AAWS called The AA Group which is available free for download at http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=100. This pamphlet covers everything a group ever needs to know about how to be a group and conduct its business. In fact, there is a wealth of service information available for download under the "Services for Members" link http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm and from "Service Material" http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98 on that page. All of this information is very helpful in understanding Alcoholics Anonymous. Happy Reading! debi the service junkie sober in Aggieland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3839. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Group conscience meetings From: Doug Hart . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 6:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Group conscience and business meetings are well covered by the AA brochure, The AA Group, which is now online. These topics start on p. 27 at the link below. Doug Hart http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=100 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3840. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Group conscience meetings From: Art Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 11:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Ernie There are 2 pieces of AA literature that can be helpful for guidelines on group conscience/business meetings and the role of the chairperson or moderator in those meetings: (1) "The AA Group" pamphlet (I'll cite from the 10/05 version). It contains guidelines for an informed group conscience, AA business meetings, voting in the home group and resolving group problems. These topics are all in the index at the beginning of the pamphlet. (2) "The AA Service Manual" (I'll cite from the 8/05 version). It contains guidelines for a "sharing session." The group conscience/business meeting should be conducted as a sharing session. Both of the above pieces of literature can be downloaded from the AA.org web site as searchable PDF files. Information below can be found by doing key word string searches with the current free Adobe Reader that can be downloaded from Adobe.com. It's useful to encourage an understanding and appreciation of what "informed group conscience" means as opposed to just "group conscience." It's also useful to encourage an understanding of what "substantial unanimity" means as opposed to "simple majority." Most groups have what is called a "group conscience" or "business meeting" where group matters are discussed and acted upon and where group service positions are elected. It's also a meeting where group members can receive reports from group service positions and where members can express their concerns and receive information from other group members. The first part of Tradition 2 states that a group's ultimate authority is a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. The idea sounds great - but it doesn't happen automatically - it takes the cooperation of the members involved in the group conscience discussions to ensure that God gets the opportunity to express Himself rather than one or more members manipulating the meeting to their own ends and agenda and then claiming that God made the decision. "The AA Group" pamphlet adds an important word to the term "group conscience" and suggests that the goal should be to seek an "informed group conscience." It also asks the question "What is an Informed AA Group Conscience?" and answers it by stating: "The group conscience is the collective conscience of the group membership and thus represents substantial unanimity on an issue before definitive action is taken. This is achieved by the group members through the sharing of full information, individual points of view and the practice of AA principles. To be fully informed requires a willingness to listen to minority opinions with an open mind. The pamphlet goes on to state "On sensitive issues, the group works slowly - discouraging formal motions until a clear sense of its collective view emerges. Placing principles before personalities, the membership is wary of dominant opinions. Its voice is heard when a well-informed group arrives at a decision. The result rests on more than a "yes" or "no" count - precisely because it is the spiritual expression of the group conscience. The term "informed group conscience" implies that pertinent information has been studied and all views have been heard before the group votes." This is not a play on words - it's really an appeal to AA members who are participating in the formation of group conscience to do so in a way that ensures that the final decision is "informed" and reflects unity. With AA membership comes the right to vote on issues that affect the group. It's a process that forms the very cornerstone of AA's service structure. In the 12 Concepts for World Service it's called "the right of participation" and appears in Concept 4. In Concept 5, it further states "Throughout our world service structure, a traditional "Right of Appeal" ought to prevail, thus assuring us that minority opinion will be heard and that petitions for the redress of personal grievances will be carefully considered. As with all group-conscience matters, each AA member has 1 vote; and this, ideally, is voiced through the home group. It's as simple as the idea that the residents of NY City elect the mayor of NY City and the residents of Chicago do not elect the mayor of NY City. Each elects their own mayors and resolves their own matters locally. A vote should be available to members who, by their attendance, (of perhaps at least one month) have established the group as their home group. Otherwise someone can stack a group conscience meeting with recruited votes of AA members having a different home group (regrettably it does happen - "we are not saints"). The bottom line is that a group conscience decision should reflect 2 important qualities: 1st, that it is informed, 2nd, that it reflects "substantial unanimity." Some helpful ways to achieve this are: 1. Formal motions should not be presented to the group conscience or business meeting until a matter is first fully discussed. Don't rush into a decision or ramrod it through. By the same token filibustering should not be permitted either. Each participant in the discussions should have a fixed, and reasonably brief, amount of time to speak and then let someone else have the opportunity to speak. 2. Discussions should be free of legalistic arguments, debates and personal accusations (everything benefits from restraint of pen and tongue). It also helps to ask the participants to not keep saying the same things over and over. It's ok to just say that I agree with what so and so said. 3. Minority or dissenting views should receive due respect and courtesy. 4. When a formal motion is presented it should, if possible, be worded in a manner that tries to unite or bring together the collective views expressed by the members participating in the discussions. Admittedly, compromise isn't always easy especially when someone is very passionate about a particular matter. However, a willingness to cooperate in both give and take and a respect for the views of others will always move the discussions in the right direction and move the decisions toward unity and fellowship. One of the considerations that should be apparent for arriving at an informed group conscience is that the way something is discussed can be just as important as what is being discussed. The AA Service Manual contains information for conducting something called a "sharing session." There are many things in AA that can be conducted as a sharing session, whether it's a committee meeting, a group inventory and very importantly a group conscience or business meeting. In a sharing session, everyone has a chance to use their experience, strength and hope to contribute ideas and opinions about the matter being discussed. The format of a sharing session is aimed at drawing out the ideas of even the shyest participant, and keeps anyone from dominating the meeting. Each person offers an opinion, and never needs to defend it. It also helps to avoid debates and arguments. It's important that the chairperson, or moderator, of a sharing session functions as a timekeeper or facilitator and not as an active participant in the discussions. A meeting chair's primary duties are to try to keep the meeting moving along and encouraging the involvement of the meeting participants. Sometimes it's useful to ask the District Committee Member (DCM) or other member of the Area Committee to serve as a neutral and non-participating chairperson, particularly if a matter is of significant importance or has the potential to be volatile or divisive. To keep a meeting moving along, each member participating may talk, in turn, for a specified time (2 minutes is typical - or whatever the group agrees upon). Usually no one is permitted to speak a second time on the same subject until all who wish to have had an opportunity to speak for the first time. When multiple rounds of discussion occur it is often useful to limit those rounds to 1 minute of discussion per member. Discussions should go around among the attendees one at a time in the same order for each round. Members who do not wish to speak can just pass but should be offered the opportunity to speak during their turn. No one should be allowed to just jump in and start talking or debating. In particular, the chairperson or moderator should not engage in the discussions. If he/she wishes to join the discussions then someone else should chair or moderate the meeting. It's very important to avoid a situation where a member speaks and then the chair speaks a member speaks and then the chair speaks again, etc., etc. It's a formula for failure where the chair is doing little more than holding court. That's why it's important that the chair not be an active participant in discussions. To achieve what is called "substantial unanimity" some matters (particularly very important or sensitive matters) should be resolved by more than just a simple majority vote or they can turn out to be very divisive. In many cases a simple majority vote does little more than divide the group into 2 opposing factions and that is not healthy to group unity. Typically in Area and District service committees and in the General Service Conference, matters under discussion usually require a 2/3 majority for adoption (and in some rare but very important cases a 3/4 majority). This is not done to make things more difficult to do. It's done to ensure that the decision has the backing of most of the participants and reflects substantial unanimity. It also helps individual members to learn how to compromise. If a loving God expressing Himself in the group conscience is our ultimate authority, it follows that AA leaders are not authorities in the usual sense, but are rather servants and instruments of the group conscience. Then who is in charge in AA? AA is a spiritual movement and the ultimate authority in AA is the spiritual concept of the informed group conscience. Almost every group and Fellowship problem can be solved through the process of an informed group conscience and a respect for AA principles. For all involved, a good sense of humor, cooling off periods, patience, courtesy, willingness to listen and to wait - plus a sense of fairness and trust in a "Power greater than ourselves" - have been found to be far more effective than legalistic arguments or personal accusations or "frothy emotional appeal." Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Kurtz Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:23 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Group conscience meetings A question has been posed in a different setting: "Do you have any guidelines, electronically available, on the subject of group conscience and group business meetings?. In particular the role of the Chairperson?" I trust some AAHL members will be interested in the topic; responses may also be posted directly to "JOHN e REID", (jre33756 at bigpond.net.au) Kell C, (kellcheevers at hotmail.com) or Denise H Brisbane Traditions. (jha at powerup.com.au) Thanks for this group's help. ernie kurtz (kurtzern at umich.edu) Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3841. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Re: Who were Jim and Eddie the atheists? From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 8:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "So to the person who originally posted the question: "Eddie the atheist" " There is also a reference to "Eddie the Maniac" in Pass It On. Could this be who the person was thinking of? tmd [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3842. . . . . . . . . . . . Box 4-5-9: searchable computer files are available From: Art Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/2/2006 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey Fellows Past issues of Box 4-5-9 going back to Oct/Nov 2001 are available on the AA.org web site as searchable PDF files that can be downloaded. Go to aa.og Click on Services for Members Click on Box 4-5-9 News and Notes from GSO A link to the current issue is listed Click on the drop-down list to access past issue Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3844. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who were Jim and Eddie the atheists? From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2006 3:26:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Correction to the page number: In Kurz, "Not God," note 22 on PAGE 375, (NOT page 275 as was given in Message #3833): "Ed" in the 12 and 12 was probably Jim Burwell. From Tom E. (tom2cor134 at yahoo.com) Ernest Kurtz, author of "Not God," in note 22 on page 375, said that the man who was given the pseudonym of "Ed" in the story in the 12 and 12, Tradition Three, pp. 143-145 (in the current edition) was probably Jim Burwell. So to the person who originally posted the question: "Eddie the atheist" may simply have been the same person as "Jim the atheist," if the person who told you about "Ed the atheist" was thinking about the story in the 12 and 12. Jim had a profound impact on the writing of the Big Book in terms of how God was presented. "The Vicious Cycle" is his story in the Big Book. - - - - http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm has Nancy Olson's short biographies of Jim Burwell -- "The Vicious Cycle" Henry (Hank) Parkhurst -- "The Unbeliever" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3845. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who were Jim and Eddie the atheists? From: man_dred . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2006 1:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There was another atheist named Eddie R. who Dr. Bob and Bill worked with throughout the summer of 1935. (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, pp.77 -79) He was not well known and there was not much written about this Eddie. He was from Cleveland/Akron area. They gave up on him and had their first success with Bill Dotson. Eddie reportedly showed up at Dr. Bob's funeral with approx. 1 year of sobriety according to Bob Smith Jr. (Smitty). Bill heard from Eddie again about seven years later. Although this particular Eddie was an atheist, and it's possible this is the one you mentioned... Jim Burwell was the notorious atheist in the 3rd Tradition chapter of the 12x12, who was referred to as "Ed." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3846. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The reading of "How it Works" at the beginning of meeti... From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2006 4:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII This says Tex joins a week after she did???? Perhaps you're thinking of non-alcoholic Kay Miller who brought AA to Calif. yis, Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3847. . . . . . . . . . . . Silkworth''s Psychopath From: robyn mitchell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/6/2006 10:07:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Everybody, Can anybody give me the definition of Psychopath as it applied in the 1930s? Silkworth refers to 'the psychopath' and William James also in 'Varieties..,' but there is no definition. I have gleaned the term might have been used instead of 'neurotic', 'highly strung' or 'nutcase' but am quite possibly wrong. Thanks ________________________ From the moderator: The big problem here is figuring out exactly what the term "psychopath" referred to in the early twentieth century, in other words, sixty to a hundred years ago. It refers TODAY to someone who shows a total moral blindness, who can do great harm to other people without feeling any moral qualms or remorse. They are very frightening people. But the article on psychopaths in the wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy says that the term ""was once used to denote any form of mental illness." So the term has changed its meaning over the years. So does anybody know enough about the history of psychiatry to tell us NOT what the term means today, BUT INSTEAD what the term meant in Silkworth's day, and even earlier, back when William James wrote his Varieties of Religious Experience at the very beginning of the twentieth century, over a hundred years ago? Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3848. . . . . . . . . . . . Ed the atheist From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2006 3:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Ernest Kurtz" (kurtzern at umich.edu) To Tom E. and Glenn C. -- You may well be right. I am pretty sure that there was more than one "Eddie" in early Akron -- I remember some confusion on that when I was interviewing Ann Craw. I think the non-Reilly Eddie committed suicide in Cleveland very early on. I'm also inclined to think that when Bill used a phrase such as "we shall call," he did not then use the real name. Still, . . . ? I sometimes feel like Bill did when deluged by letters asking him to explain the difference between "defects of character" and "shortcomings" in the Twelve Steps: "I never dreamed so many people would read so much into my simple words." So thanks for helping to keep me "simple." I honestly like nothing more than seeing *Not-God* improved. It is sadly out of date, with all that has been discovered since 1978, and it is my fondest hope that these discrepancies, little and large, finally motivate someone to undertake the task of producing a completely new "authoritative" history of A.A. ernie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3849. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Required reading of the Preamble From: Art Sheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2006 7:48:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII One point in the replies is historically incorrect; the AA Preamble was Conference-approved in 1958. In June 1947, what we today call the "AA Preamble" first appeared in the Grapevine. It was written by Tom Y, Grapevine's first editor, and was based on the foreword to the first edition Big Book. Today, it is a common reading at the beginning of AA meetings and that's how, over time, it came to be called the "AA Preamble." The 1958 Conference approved removing the word "honest" from the term "honest desire to stop drinking" in the original AA Preamble. AA legend sometimes erroneously states that the word "honest" was removed from Tradition 3. Neither the long nor short form of Tradition 3 ever contained the word "honest." The term "honest desire to stop drinking" is from the Foreword to the first Edition Big Book. The 1958 Conference advisory action also led to changing the original wording of the AA Preamble from "AA has no dues or fees" to "There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions." The changes were approved by the General Service Board in the summer of 1958. As of 1958, the changes resulted in a Conference-approved version of the AA Preamble as it is worded today. Cheers Arthur -----Original Message----- From: Bill Lash (barefootbill at optonline.net) Just so you know, the Preamble is NOT Conference Approved Literature, it is written and copyrighted by the AA Grapevine. Also, it is DEFINITELY NOT required to be read at every sanctioned group. Namaste. Just Love, Barefoot Bill IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3850. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby Thacher''s Grave From: ckbudnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/7/2006 3:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone know where Ebby Thacher is buried in Albany? Chris B. Raleigh, NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3851. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Ebby Thacher''s Grave From: kentedavis@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/8/2006 1:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From kentedavis, Mel Barger, and Arthur Sheehan. - - - From: kentedavis@aol.com (kentedavis at aol.com) Ebby Thacher was buried in Albany Rural Cemetery. The site is off of Middle Ridge Rd, Plot 56. The cemetery can be found at the corner of Broadway and Cemetery Ave. There are a number of photos of this historical cemetary at the Albany Rural Cemetery Website: http://www.albanyruralcemetery.org/albrurcem/index.html - - - From the moderator: Photo gallery showing some of the elaborate statuary and tombs at various of the gravesites at: http://www.albanyruralcemetery.org/albrurcem/Images/gallery/index.htm A President of the United States is joined by 5 Governors, 3 members of the Continental Congress, 2 members of the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention, 13 members of the Colonial Assembly, 8 Presidential Cabinet members, 5 Ambassadors and many Senators, Congressmen, and Judges. - - - From: "Mel Barger" (melb at accesstoledo.com) Hi Chris, Ebby Thacher is buried in the Albany Rural Cemetery, north of the city. He is in a large family plot with perhaps 15 to 20 graves of other family members. The cemetery is large and hilly, with lots of winding roads. If possible, it's best to get directions from the office, as it's almost impossible to find the plot just by driving around. I visited the cemetery twice with Thacher family members and we got lost both times! Mel Barger - - - From: "Art Sheehan" (ArtSheehan at msn.com) Hi Chris In the book "Ebby The Man Who Sponsored Bill W." by Mel B on page 144 it states: "Ebby was laid to rest next to his brother Ken in the family plot in the Albany Rural Cemetery, just north of the city. In death, he rejoined his prominent family. The large monument that defines the Thacher plot is that of George H. Thacher, Ebby's distinguished grandfather and founder of the family firm. Ebby's parents and other relatives are also buried there." Cheers Arthur IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3852. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Silkworth''s Psychopath From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2006 8:08:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Robyn, I just sent you an attachment with all the articles I have found written by and about Dr. Silkworth. If you do a search on "psychopath" within this attachment you'll find 11 uses of the word. Maybe one will explain a little bit more about what he means when he uses the word. Also, here are some definitions found in two dictionaries I have (one is from 1936 and one is from 1938). Hope all this is helpful, take it easy and God bless. Just Love, Barefoot Bill "One who is morally irresponsible; any disease of the mind, insanity; mental disease or disorder." - - - -----Original Message----- From: robyn mitchell Subject: Silkworth's Psychopath Hi Everybody, Can anybody give me the definition of Psychopath as it applied in the 1930s? Silkworth refers to 'the psychopath' and William James also in 'Varieties..,' but there is no definition. I have gleaned the term might have been used instead of 'neurotic', 'highly strung' or 'nutcase' but am quite possibly wrong. Thanks IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3853. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Silkworth''s Psychopath From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2006 9:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The impression I get from the Oxford English Dictionary is that there have always been two slightly different usages of the term. The earliest one the OED identifies is from 1885: "The psychopath . . . is a type which has only recently come under the notice of medical science . . . Beside his own person and his own interests, nothing is sacred to the psychopath." But another quote, from 1890, describes the psychopath as "a being whom Russian laws refuse to punish even for murder." In the second quote, as in some other writings of the time, the term psychopath seems to mean the same thing as "psychotic, " a person with such severe mental derangement that they are unable to distinguish reality from delusion. We now know that schizophrenics are rarely violent, but in the old days they were assumed to be extremely dangerous. The mid-20th century meaning of "psychopath" (given by Glenn in the last post) derived from the concept of the insane as violent and dangerous. The current diagnostic category for someone who appears sane in other respects but lacks empathy or conscience, is "antisocial personality disorder". This has largely replaced the term "psychopath," although either term can be used. But back to James and Silkworth. James meant "psychotic" or "schizophrenic." He was referring to George Fox, the founder of the Quaker religion. Everyone who knew Fox recognized him as a man of great spiritual gifts, even those who wanted him locked up for disturbing the peace. Yet, his visions were so strange and vivid that they sometimes resembled those of a schizophrenic. James was illustrating his point that the twice-born, the most clearly God-conscious, would often be considered insane by ordinary medical criteria. He certainly wasn't saying that Fox was evil. Silkworth was apparently using the term "psychopath" as a synonym for "emotionally unstable." Unlike James, Silkworth didn't describe delusional thinking such as a schizophrenic might have. Nor was he referring to antisocial personality disorder. I think he meant significant mental illness of any type, which would have made recovery from alcoholism very difficult (especially in the days before modern psychiatric medications were available). Bipolar disorder, the fashionable disease of our day, comes to mind. Cora --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, robyn mitchell wrote: > > Hi Everybody, > > Can anybody give me the definition of Psychopath > as it applied in the 1930s? > > Silkworth refers to 'the psychopath' and William > James also in 'Varieties..,' but there is no definition. > > I have gleaned the term might have been used instead > of 'neurotic', 'highly strung' or 'nutcase' but am > quite possibly wrong. > > Thanks > ________________________ > > From the moderator: > > The big problem here is figuring out exactly what > the term "psychopath" referred to in the early > twentieth century, in other words, sixty to a > hundred years ago. > > It refers TODAY to someone who shows a total moral > blindness, who can do great harm to other people > without feeling any moral qualms or remorse. They > are very frightening people. > > But the article on psychopaths in the wikipedia > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy > says that the term ""was once used to denote any > form of mental illness." > > So the term has changed its meaning over the years. > > So does anybody know enough about the history of > psychiatry to tell us NOT what the term means today, > BUT INSTEAD what the term meant in Silkworth's day, > and even earlier, back when William James wrote his > Varieties of Religious Experience at the very > beginning of the twentieth century, over a hundred > years ago? > > Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3854. . . . . . . . . . . . Word changes in the Big Book From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2006 2:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Seething cauldrens of debate" can come from the most innocuous of circumstances. In a Big Book Study while reading page 66 from my 3rd Edition I read, "We turned back to the list, for it held the key to the future. We were prepared to look at it from an entirely different angle. We began to see that the world and its people really dominated us. In that state, the wrong-doing of others, fancied or real, had power to actually kill. How could we escape? We saw that these resentments must be mastered, but how? We could not wish them away any more than alcohol." One of the people there said, "Whoa! My book says, "We were prepared to look for it [not "at it"] from an entirely different angle." This led, of course, to a debate as to how it changed the meaning, etc., but that is not the purpose of my query... I went and checked in my "library" and found the following differences in the Edtions and Printings: Page edit./printing Date "at" or "for" 79 1st, 11th June 1947 "at" 66 2nd, 7th 1965 "for" 66 3rd, 10th 1981 "for" 66 3rd, 56th 1996 "at" 66 4th, 14th Sept., 2004 "at" And on the spine of the 310 th printing of the 3rd Edition it says, "Third Edition: New and Revised." New and Revised? I just have a curiosity as to any information surrounding the "at" vs. "for" and the "New and Revised." Anyone? Thank you, Pete Tippett IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3855. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Eddie R. ("Eddie the atheist"?) From: Tommy . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2006 2:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I heard Dr Bob`s son,Smitty speak once and he talked about "Eddie R." In Sue`s and Smitty`s book,Children of the Healer on page 41, Sue gives a account of Eddie but it does not mention whether he was an atheist or not. I did run across a few interesting facts about Eddie as told first by Sue,and then Smitty. Sue -- page 41: Eddie R was their first try at sobering up someone after Dr Bob got sober. He would shimmie down the drainpipe and run off and get drunk. He even chased Anne with a butcher knife once. He had a wife and several kids at the time. He blacked his wife`s eyes once while staying at Dr Bob's house. She remembers how disapointed her Dad and Bill was when Eddie didn`t want it... Smitty remembers Eddie R with this account from page 147: Eddie was locked in a bedroom and Eddie would slide down a drainpipe and get drunk. They captured him several times,and one day he escaped and called them from Cleveland and said he was going to commit sucide. He wanted to give them time to get there and be witnesses. He ate a tuna sandwich once at Dr. Bob's and he had a allergy to tuna, and he grabbed a butcher knife and chased Anne around.They finally took him back to Ann Arbor and had him recommitted to the mental institution. He later was discovered to have a underlying mental condition of some kind. When Dr Bob passed,Eddie showed up for his funeral, and said he was sober one year and a member of the Youngstown group. Tommy - - - See AAHL message #3845 from "man_dred" (man_dred at yahoo.co.uk) > > There was another atheist named Eddie R. who Dr. Bob > and Bill worked with throughout the summer of 1935. > (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, pp.77 -79) > > He was not well known and there was not much > written about this Eddie. He was from Cleveland/Akron > area. They gave up on him and had their first success > with Bill Dotson. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3856. . . . . . . . . . . . History of the meaning of the term psychopath From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 3:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "David Johnson" (crescentdave at yahoo.com) has sent a reference to an extremely useful historical account of the development of the concept of the psychopath: http://ijo.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/45/3/325.pdf This article should be read carefully by anyone who wants to investigate what the word psychopath meant at various points in the twentieth century. We need to observe when the word was being used in order to understand what it meant to the author. In particular, THE TERM PSYCHOPATH HAD A MAJOR CHANGE IN MEANING AROUND 1941. - - - 1890-1902: William James, The Varieties of Religious Experience, was based on lectures given in 1901-1902. He wrote his famous book on the Principles of Psychology a decade earlier, in 1890. 1939: William Duncan Silkworth, M.D., (1873?-1951) was Director of the Charles B. Towns Hospital for Drug and Alcohol Addictions in New York City in the 1930s, during which time Bill Wilson was admitted on various occasions for alcoholism. Silkworth had a profound influence on Wilson and introduced him to the idea that alcoholism had a pathological, disease- like basis. Silkworth wrote the chapter titled "The Doctor's Opinion" in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" which came out in 1939. THEN COMES THE SHIFT IN THE MEANING OF THE WORD PSYCHOPATH 1940's: The other three major early AA authors did not begin writing until the 1940's, by which time the meaning of the term psychopath had changed: Ed Webster, The Little Red Book, 1946 Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe), first Golden Book, 1947 Richmond Walker, Twenty-Four Hours a Day, 1948 1950: Marty Mann, Primer on Alcoholism, 1950. An important historical source for information about AA ideas at that time, as they were being disseminated to the general public; this is an important source (which has not been utilized nearly as much as it ought) for understanding one the major strands of early AA thought. Anyone who is going to write a real history of early AA has to include Marty and her friends, including not only the people who helped Marty put out the Grapevine during its first few years, but also Sgt. Bill S. (the major spokesman for the psychologically-oriented wing of early AA) and Nancy Olson, who was the founder of the AAHistoryLovers and the author of "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends" (describing AA in the 1970's). - - - Meanwhile, over the course of the past two centuries, the concept of the psychopath was undergoing various shifts in meaning. The following is taken from a table in http://ijo.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/45/3/325.pdf 1812 -- Rush -- moral alienation of the mind, total perversion of the moral faculties 1835 -- Prichard -- moral insanity, deplorable defect in personality, no volitional control, which should be a legal defense 1891 -- Koch -- psychopathic inferiority, a congenital (inborn) personality type -- the prognosis depends on whether it is chronic or temporary 1897 -- Maudsley -- moral imbecility, characteristic of a criminal class affected by cerebral deficits, however it is useless to punish those who cannot control their behavior 1904 -- Krafft-Ebing -- morally depraved, savages in society -- the prognosis is that they cannot be helped at all, and must be confined to asylums indefinitely 1915 -- Kraepelin -- psychopathic personalities, they are the most vicious and wicked, born criminal, liars, swindlers -- prognosis is poor 1941 -- Cleckley -- the psychopath is a detached, narcissistic interpersonal style -- prognosis is poor - - - WITH THANKS TO DAVID JOHNSON FOR SENDING US THIS: Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 From: "David Johnson" Subject: Historical Note on Psychopathology I hope this proves useful to you. If I can be of any further service, please let me know. I'm happy to contribute in whatever way I can-your contributions and this site have been so helpful to me. Dave Johnson See the following pdf: http://ijo.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/45/3/325.pdf It gives a historical review of psychopathology and on page 4 it first describes how Kraeplin saw it (a normative view for the first third of the 20th century). Later, on p. 10 of the pdf (corresponding to p. 333-334 in the book), there's a detailed description which I"ll put down here in its entirety. KRAEPELIN The approach to the disorder of psychopathy derived principally from somatic descriptors evolved from German theorists who explained it by utilizing massive typological systems (Craft, 1966). By 1915, Kraepelin expanded Koch's psychopathic inferiority terminology to contain categories essentially defined by the most vicious and wicked of disordered offenders (Ellard, 1988). Prior to Kraepelin, the categories of psychopathies contained various personality descriptions. Kraepelin, however, wanted to narrow the classification to only those characteristics that were the most devastating and most frequently detected by physicians working in institutions. His psychopathic personalities described in detail the "born criminal . . . the excitable, shiftless, impulsive types, the liars, swindlers, antisocial and troublemaking types" (Schneider, 1958, p. 23). Kraepelin portrayed "morbid liars and swindlers" as manipulative, glib, charming, and unconcerned for others (Millon et al., 1998, p. 19). Another category designated by Kraepelin included criminals by impulse, who were overcome by uncontrollable desires to commit offenses like arson or rape for purposes unrelated to material gain. A third classification included professional criminals, who acted out of cold, calculated self-interest rather than from uncontrollable impulse. Finally, a fourth type consisted of morbid vagabonds, who wandered through life with neither self-confidence nor responsibility (Millon et al., 1998). Clearly with these characterizations, Kraepelin moved the focus of psychopathy back to one of moral judgment and social condemnation. Interestingly, as Millon et al. (1998, p. 19) note, his categories of psychopathic personalities more closely represent our conceptualization of psychopathy and ASPD today. This association is found in Kraepelin's statements on the classification of antisocial personalities. He described these disordered individuals as The Confusion Over Psychopathy 333 the enemies of society . . . characterized by a blunting of the moral elements. They are often destructive and threatening . . . there is a lack of deep emotional reaction; and of sympathy and affection they have little. They are apt to have been troublesome in school, given to truancy and running away. Early thievery is common among them and they commit crimes of various kinds. (quoted in Millon et al., 1998, p. 10). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3857. . . . . . . . . . . . Meditation From: Henrik Rue . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 3:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Does anyone have a a definition of what meditation was defined as, at the time of writing Alcoholics Anonymous? I do not expect it to be some eastern way of meditation. Henrik Rue - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: "Meditation" in traditional western Christianity had always meant reading a text, commonly from a meditational book or pamphlet (like "The Upper Room" or "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" in AA), and then musing thoughtfully upon how the text helps me to understand my own life and problems, and my relationship to God. See The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church for the traditional Catholic understanding: Meditation is "mental prayer in discursive form. It is the type of mental prayer appropriate to beginners and as such accounted its lowest stage; and it is commonly contrasted with Contemplation. Its method is the devout reflection on a chosen (often Biblical) theme, with a view to deepening spiritual insight and stimulating the will and affections. Among the many methods of meditation advocated by modern schools of spirituality, that expounded by St. Ignatius of Loyola in the 'Spiritual Exercises' ... is widely used." [Sister Ignatia used Loyola's "Spiritual Exercises" during her early spiritual formation, and would often give little books composed of excerpts from that work to AA people who went through her program at St. Thomas Hospital.] [Ralph Pfau -- Father John Doe -- uses the same traditional western definition when he talks about meditation in his Golden Books. He was one of the four most-read early AA authors, so his ideas are extremely important for the understanding of what AA people meant by meditation.] It is important to note that "meditation" was a thoughtful process, NOT the blanking out of all conscious thought (which was called "contemplation" instead in traditional western terminology -- see St. Bonaventura's "The Mind's Path to God," St. Teresa of Avila, and St. John of the Cross for more on the subject of western techniques for contemplation). In AA circles however, "meditation" also took on some of the characteristics of what the Oxford Group called "having a morning quiet time." So AA members might in fact spend a short time blanking out all their conscious thoughts and just remaining still and quiet in God's presence, while waiting for God's "guidance" to give them instructions for the day. Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours a Day gives the best introduction to what the concept of meditation meant in early AA. He refers to the period of Quiet Time as "entering the divine Silence" and recommends it as a way to restore our spirit of peace and calm, and as a way to obtain the power of the divine grace for changing our lives. In the Big Book, Bill W.'s short section on meditation and the eleventh step gives instructions for quiet time and seeking guidance. By the time he wrote the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, Bill W. had become convinced however that too many AA members were getting into trouble by assuming that their own screwiest thoughts were in fact "God's guidance," so we can see him trying to steer AA members away from doing that too much. - - - Modern AA confusion about the meaning of the term "meditation" arose during the 1960's and 1970's, and we've never totally recovered from this. In the 1950's a guru in India named Maharishi Mahesh Yogi began teaching what he called Transcendental Meditation, based on a technique going back to Shankara. We recite a mantra (a simple word like "Om") over and over in our minds as we attempt to remove all conscious thoughts from our minds, and attempt to merge ourselves into the impersonal divine reality which is all that truly exists (this material world is an illusion, and even our feeling of being individuals is an illusion). In the 1960's and 1970's this kind of Transcendental Meditation was popularized in the United States by a number of prominent entertainers and other public figures, above all the rock music group called the Beatles. In addition, during that period, the famous professional football player Joe Namath also preached Transcendental Meditation, along with the music group called the Beach Boys, comedian Andy Kaufman, and stage magician Doug Henning. Clint Eastwood, famous for shooting people without qualms in so many of his movies ("make my day"), also started preaching the virtues of transcendental meditation! As a result, Henrik, as you have pointed out, to this day newcomers to AA read the eleventh step, and immediately come to the false conclusion that they are expected to sit crosslegged and start chanting "Om." In traditional western terminology, this is "contemplation," not meditation. Hindu and Buddhist techniques are perfectly O.K. for AA people who want to use them. Many AA members today come from one of those Asian traditions. And attempting to practice Transcendental Meditation while listening to Beatles' records does not do anyone any real harm. But if we ask the historical question of what the earliest AA people did, and we look at what the eleventh step actually says, it is NOT telling us to try to shut off all conscious thought while we try to become "one with All," but to do something very different: - - - "Sought through prayer and meditation [a] to improve our CONSCIOUS contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for [b] knowledge of His will for us and [c] the power to carry that out." Summed up, this means: [a] Thinking about spiritual texts to help us develop our God CONSCIOUSNESS. [b] Seeking guidance (in the Oxford Group sense). [c] Having a brief Quiet Time because when we finish our prayer and meditation, we will find that during this Quiet Time, God's grace has quietly entered our souls, so that we will have new power and strength (God's power and strength dwelling in our souls) enabling us to do that which we could never do before. - - - The fine print sections at the bottom of each page in Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours a Day tell you how to do that, and do it very effectively. That is the reason why Rich was the second most-read early AA author, second only to Bill Wilson himself. To my own mind, this is one of the ten best books on spirituality (East or West, from any century) which has ever been written. People who read that book every morning make more spiritual progress, far more quickly, than with any other meditational work I have ever seen. If you go though the fine print sections of Twenty-Four Hours a Day carefully, you can see the whole theory and practice of meditation laid out in great detail. Beyond that (and reading what Bill W. had to say, of course) the best way of understanding what meditation meant to early AA people is to go back to the Oxford Group literature and see what they had to say about quiet time and guidance. Father Ed Dowling and Sister Ignatia would recommend that one also look at St. Ignatius Loyola's Spiritual Exercises for further guidance on the subject of meditation. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3859. . . . . . . . . . . . Irwin Meyerson From: Tommy . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2006 2:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently heard a talk given by Jimmy Burwell in 1957. He states that a big Jewish fellow named Meyerson from Cleveland was responsible for starting AA meetings all over the South. He just went around planting AA seeds and helping AA to get started. Does anyone here know about Meyerson and where I can find more information on this subject. thanks Tommy H. Oakboro,NC IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3860. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The reading of "How it Works" at the beginning of meetings From: Charles Grotts . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2006 9:27:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Charles G. tells us about the Hotel Cecil in Los Angeles, which is still in existence. This was where reading "How It Works" at the beginning of AA meetings first began: The Hotel Cecil, where the first AA meeting (that didn't fold right away) in Los Angeles took place, in 1940, is at 640 South Main Street (about a block from Skid Row). It was built in 1927 and it's been remodeled. The mezzanine, where the meeting took place, is gone. Here are two recent reviews: "This place is terrible for anyone capable of looking up this review. The hotel is dirty, stained carpets, 12x10 rooms IF you get a shower-included room, brown water, just disgusting. I highly suggest staying somewhere else if you value your life or things. " travelocity.com - negative - traveler comment "Great Value" - Alex Devito "For $45.00 I wasnt expecting it to be that nice. My room was great with nice view of LA, staff very friendly and I liked going to the new art galleries in the area. This reminds me of NY SOHO before it changed. Couldnt beat..." --- Robert Stonebraker wrote: > Los Angeles in 1940, see AA Comes of Age, p. 93 > --- from Bob S., tom2cor134@yahoo.com>, James R., > and Debbie U. > > Greg asked: " Can someone point me in the right > direction as to the origin of the custom (at least > for some groups) of reading "How It Works" at the > beginning of meetings. > > From: "Robert Stonebraker" > > (rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) > > Please read page 93 of AA COMES OF AGE. The year > seems to be 1940 and a member named Mort J. insisted > on reading Chapter 5 at the start of every session. > This took place at the Cecil Hotel in downtown > Los Angeles. I think that hotel was on Hill Street > or perhaps Broadway (Near Pershing Sq. Park). It > is probably torn down now, but it was still there > in the 1960s. > > Bob S., Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3861. . . . . . . . . . . . Who wrote the preface to the 3rd edition of the Big Book? From: dano5551212 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 12:44:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, I am curious to know about the preface to the third edition of "Alcoholics Anonymous." Specifically the part that states on page xii: "If you have a drinking problem, we hope you may pause in reading one of the forty-four personal stories and think: 'Yes, that happened to me'; or more important, 'Yes, I've felt like that' ...." What I am wondering is , since the 2nd edition preface does not give this suggestion (specifically) and the 4th edition does, what is the history of who wrote this preface and why, including any possible special motive? Also, is there a preface to the 1st edition? Any info will be greatly appreciated. Dano - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: In other words, if I understand the question correctly, were there things going on in AA circa 1976 that prompted the writers of the preface to put a special emphasis on the stories at the end of the book? Or was this final sentence in the prefece part of the justification for changing the stories at the back of the book yet again, to make them (hopefully) easier to identify with for a greater number of alcoholics? Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3862. . . . . . . . . . . . Yev G. -- Nassau County, Garden City From: Corwyn G Billard . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 7:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On Thu (11/2) jlobdell54 mentioned that: > Yev G was a founder in Bethlehem PA and Granden City NY. As a member here in Nassau county, Long Island, NY - I believe you meant Garden City. I have been involved here in Intergroup in Nassau (after a stint in General Service) and Yev is very much a part of the expansion of AA into Nassau county (half way out toward Montauk Point from NYC). Local "tradition" has it that he had started a meeting by 45/46 in his home in Garden City. Other early meetings were in Glen Head, Manhasset, Freeport and Baldwin, all dating from 45/46 or earlier. Members prior to that time, had to head in to Forest Hills in Queens, where Bill supposedly did stop in upon occasion. Got to the point with gas rationing (guess this was 43/44?), that people could not make the trip even with car pooling. It has recently come to my attention (through this group), that Sgt Bill, also got his start in Yev's Garden City group of the time. The Garden City Group remains one of the most active groups here in Nassau to this day with 11 meetings spaced over 3 nights a week. There are times that they conduct 3 different meetings at the same time. I am aware that Yev, who got sober in 41, served as Marty Mann's assistant, but would love to hear more of his PA connection, how he came to be involved with Marty, was he one of those who worked on the early Grapevine. Have seen a couple of secondary references to him (in material about Marty), but have not been able to find much information about him directly. Especially interested since he resided here in Nassau. He was also affiliated with a historic Episcopal church in the middle of Hempstead. Was quite surprised a number of years ago, when on a visit to the Wilson House, saw a photograph of Bill on the wall that had been inscribed by Bill "To Yev...". Would appreciate being pointed to where I might be able to find out more about Yev, Sgt Bill or other information concerning early AA here in Nassau county. Thanx Cory B Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this contaminant free message. We do concede however, that a significant number of electrons may have been inconvenienced. - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: Sgt. Bill S., "On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program: The Air Force Sergeant Who Beat Alcoholism and Taught Others to Do the Same" -- see http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html -- tells the story of the way that Yev Gardner (and Mrs. Marty Mann) helped Sgt. Bill set up the first officially recognized alcoholism treatment program in the U.S. military at Mitchel Air Force Base on Long Island in 1948. Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3863. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did Bill W. annual dinner begin in New York? From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 8:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sasha wrote "This year I had a strong sense of being at a historical event, and I wondered what you all know about it." The December 1944 issue of the GV reported on the gathering of 1500 people, most of them drunks at the Hotel Commodore to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the founding of AA. Bill gave a report on the first 10 years of AA and a female member also shared. Fulton Oursler of the Reader's Digest was the non-AA speaker. (The date of the dinner is not mentioned). The November, 1945 issue of the GV announces the annual Metropolitan group dinner is November 7, at the Commodore Hotel. The December, 1945 issue containes a full page article on Bill's talk at the dinner to over 1500 persons. The October 1946 issue announces the annual dinner of Alcoholics Anonymous to be held November 7 at the Commodore Hotel. The December 1947 issue reports on the 13th anniversary banquet held November 6 at the Hotel Commodore and sponsored by the New York Intergroup Assocation. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3864. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Irwin Meyerson From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 6:42:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII You may be thinking of the venetian blind salesman Irwin M who was from Cleveland. He was a big man, over 250 lbs. He went to Atlanta, and Jacksonville, New Orleans etc. He had an unorthodox style of 12 stepping and started many AA groups. Yours in Service Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3866. . . . . . . . . . . . Irwin Meyerson: started AA in Birmingham and Indianapolis From: TBaerMojo@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 8:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII He came from Cleveland, was a venetian blind salesman, large, and he came on the train to start AA in Birmingham. Also started AA in Indianapolis, Indiana. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3867. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Irwin Meyerson From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 11:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Meyerson was sponsored by Clarence Snyder. Irwin was responsible for starting many meetings throughout the US and 12 Stepping lots of other "founding" members from states he traveled through as a salesperson. Irwin had a very difficult time staying sober for any continuous length of sobriety during his travels but always carried the message wherever he went even though he couldn't "get it" himself for much of his time in AA. Mitchell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3868. . . . . . . . . . . . Irwin Meyerson and Indianapolis AA From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 8:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Tommy H. asked: Does anyone here know about Meyerson and where I can find more information on this subject. - - - Dear Tommy, Here follows an excerpt from a recent AA history of Indianapolis written by Neil S., who is the current Inter-group Archivist. Bob S, from Indiana [FROM THE MODERATOR: For more details, see http://hindsfoot.org/nIndy1.html and http://hindsfoot.org/nindy2.html] Excerpt from Indianapolis AA History: From several sources I will attempt to weave a new, but connected pattern of how AA was started here in Indianapolis and identify the critical people who constitute the threads. Let me quote a description of Doherty Sheerin, the man who founded AA in Indianapolis. J. D. Holmes (who was one of the original AA group in Akron) said in a letter that Doherty Sheerin was: " ... the boy who put AA on the Indiana map. I have always considered him the number 3 man in A.A., a statement I can boldly make after having been closely associated with Dr. Bob and Bill W. And there are others who think the same as I." That is an extraordinary thing to say. Next to Dr. Bob and to Bill W. in his understanding of the AA program, Doherty Sheerin was the number three man in AA. Later I will read this letter in its entirety. Who was this spectacular man who had such an affect on my life and on yours? No doubt AA would have found its way to Indianapolis. But the historical evidence seems to indicate this is how AA actually came together in Indianapolis. Who was this man? His name, as we have said, was Doherty Sheerin. Other names that you will hear are "J. D." who was James D. Holmes. He was AA # 8 and lived in Akron, Ohio. His wife was from Evansville, and J.D. and his wife eventually relocated to Evansville, where her family was still residing as this story unfolds. J. D. had started the first A.A. group in Indiana in Evansville on April 23, 1940. The other essential man in this unfolding episode is Irving M. from Cleveland. Irving M. is sometimes referred to as Erwin. His last name was Meyerson. The long time Indianapolis Saturday Evening group still honors him. His final residence was on the West coast. The central figure in early Cleveland A.A. was Clarence Snyder, the "Home Brewmeister" in the story in the Big Book (pp. 297-303 in the 3rd edition). He was the dynamo who pioneered the printed word -- pamphlets, advertisements and newspaper articles. Irving Meyerson was one of Clarence Snyder's train of "pigeons" or sponcees. When Irving came to Indianapolis and introduced himself to Dohr Sheerin, he simply said, "I am from Cleveland and I've come here to help you get to work." Dean L. Barnett, who made the first attempt at writing a history of AA in Indiana, gives one account of how Irving and Dohr got together. One copy of Dean's history is in the New York AA Archives, and another copy, which seems to be a slightly different version, is in the Indianapolis AA Archives. In the New York version, Dean says that in the Spring of 1940, in Indianapolis, "... a man who had been sober on his own for almost three years read the Liberty Magazine article on A.A. and sent to New York for what information was available, but experienced little reaction from what he received. This man was the late, beloved Doherty S[heerin]. Later in the same year, Irvin S. M[eyerson] of the Cleveland group visited Mr. S[heerin] and took him and a Mr. Barr to Evansville to meet Mr. Holmes. Hope was revived in D[ohr]'s breast, he once told me, so that when he returned to Indianapolis, he soon interested another sufferer in the program on or about October 28, 1940, the date now marked as the founding of the movement in the capital city." End of excerpt - - - [FROM THE MODERATOR: I should say that Dean Barnett was not a very good researcher, and got a number of things wrong in his history of how AA came to Indiana. Dean says that Doherty Sheerin read the Liberty Magazine article and wrote the New York AA headquarters, and that somehow or other Irwin Meyerson ended up coming out to Indianapolis from Cleveland. Dean would get the basic story right, but tended to garble and confuse the details and guess when he didn't know. Many present-day Indiana AA historians think that it is more likely that Doherty Sheerin came upon some of the things printed about AA in the Cleveland newspaper, and wrote directly to Cleveland, where Clarence Snyder asked Irwin to pass through Indianapolis when he was traveling around selling venetian blinds. But Dean Barnett could have been right, and perhaps Dohr did write New York, and New York sent Irwin to Indianapolis. At any rate, Irwin made the twelfth step call on Dohr in Indianapolis, but immediately took him down to Evansville, Indiana, where the AA leader J. D. Holmes had already set up an AA group. It was J. D. who help Irwin show Dohr how to set up an AA group, and the J. D. Holmes and Doherty Sheerin then set up a highly organized campaign, where they had soon set up AA meetings all over the state of Indiana. I have been told, but have not been able to verify, that AA in Louisville, Kentucky, was founded by contact with Indianapolis, which is a straight drive north from Louisville. South Bend, Indiana, where I live, which is up in the far north, is the only major part of Indiana where AA was not founded (directly or indirectly) by the efforts of J. D. Holmes (from Akron) and Doherty Sheerin (who was twelfth stepped by Irwin Meyerson from Cleveland). Glenn C.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3869. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: How did Bill W. annual dinner begin in New York? From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/15/2006 4:02:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At 19:31 11/13/2006 , James Blair wrote: >Sasha wrote > >"This year I had a strong sense of being at a >historical event, and I wondered what you all >know about it." > >The December 1944 issue of the GV reported on the >gathering of 1500 people, most of them drunks at the >Hotel Commodore to celebrate the 10th anniversary >of the founding of AA. Bill gave a report on the >first 10 years of AA and a female member also shared. >Fulton Oursler of the Reader's Digest was the >non-AA speaker. > >(The date of the dinner is not mentioned). The N.Y. World-Telegram article quoted by the N.Y. Sun and included in the December 1944 Grapevine article James Blair cited says "last night". I would presume "last night" was in the recent past. None of the responses to the initial query addresses two of the three questions Sasha posed: 1. How did it come to be? [And why late October/early November?] 2. Was it always conceived as a fundraiser? 3. Akron has its Founders' Day [Shouldn't Founders be plural?] on the traditional founding date, June 10th, annually. Perhaps, tho, we are trying to read importance into it that isn't there. 8^) My wife, late of Long Island, has attended the N.Y. dinner and experienced feelings similar to those Sasha experienced. Tommy in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3870. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "at" vs. "for" on Big Book p. 66 From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/17/2006 10:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Peter Tippett wrote: In a Big Book Study while reading page 66 from my 3rd Edition I read, "We turned back to the list, for it held the key to the future. We were prepared to look AT IT from an entirely different angle." "AT IT" or "FOR IT"? I went and checked in my library and found the following differences in the Eidtions and Printings: Page edit./printing Date "at" or "for" 79 1st, 11th June 1947 "at" 66 2nd, 7th 1965 "for" 66 3rd, 10th 1981 "for" 66 3rd, 56th 1996 "at" 66 4th, 14th Sept., 2004 "at" And on the spine of the 310 th printing of the 3rd Edition it says, "Third Edition: New and Revised." New and Revised? I just have a curiosity as to any information surrounding the "at" vs. "for" and the "New and Revised." __________________________ The Anonymous Press has a reproduction of the first edition, first printing, which lists the changes made from the 1st/1st to "modern text." This change, whether accidental or purposeful, is not listed. This comparison list is interesting to read, but be aware that there is at least one typo in it. The Big Book writers, for example, used the terms ex-alcoholics and former alcoholics and these terms were subsequently changed, but I digress . . . I checked my library and four first editions, the 5th, 10th, 11th, and 13th printings all have "at." I checked all 16 printings of the second edition and they all have "for." They all also have "New and Revised" on the spine, even the one that says "Third Edition." The first twenty printings of the third edition have "for." The twenty-second printing has "at." My modest library lacks a twenty-first printing, so I can be no more definitive than that. Subsequent third editions that I checked have "at." My one fourth edition, a first printing, has "at." It does not have "New and Revised" on the dust jacket or cover. I realize this doesn't answer the why question, but I can't answer that. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3871. . . . . . . . . . . . Hospital records and the date of Dr. Bob''s last drink? From: Russ S . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/16/2006 10:56:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello Fellow History Lovers, Today, on the anniversary of the passing of our beloved Dr. Bob I received an email saying he "began his sobriety on or about June 16, 1935." I know this issue has been raised in several previous AAHL posts. Has anyone ever tried to check hospital records in Akron to see when Dr. Bob operated and who the famous, um, person was, who had to have a "delicate procedure?" Love and Service, Russ Stewart Hooterville, NJ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3872. . . . . . . . . . . . Early Grapevine article and the word "slip" From: john.otis . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/18/2006 1:06:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi. Back in the 60s I had a sponsor in Lancaster, Calif. and he had one of the first Grapevines. In it someone had written "Slipping From the Hands Of God," and said that this is what we mean by the word "slip." Is there any way I can get a copy of this Grapevine? Your site puts tears in my eyes when I see the roots of this LIFE SAVING PROGRAM. John Otis IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3873. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "at" vs. "for" on Big Book p. 66 From: Charlene C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/19/2006 4:47:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not sure what you are looking for but from a grammatical point of view, the word "for" makes zero sense in that particular sentence. charlene austin, tx. Peter Tippett wrote: In a Big Book Study while reading page 66 from my 3rd Edition I read, "We turned back to the list, for it held the key to the future. We were prepared to look AT IT from an entirely different angle." "AT IT" or "FOR IT"? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3875. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Hospital records and the date of Dr. Bob''s last drink? From: Glenn F. Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/19/2006 11:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Evolution of Alcoholics Anonymous By Jim Burwell - The Agnostic http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-jb-evolution.html Jim Burwell, one of the earliest AA members, says in this little history of AA that he wrote at one point, that Dr. Bob "dates his last drink June 15, 1935." Jim preserves one version of some of the early AA oral traditions. What you have to do in this kind of historical research is look at all the various oral tradition material, because usually what happens is that each version gets some things right but other things wrong. So the next thing you have to do is look at written sources of information, to see which oral tradition version best corresponds to what can be corroborated from written documents. Given the actual date of the AMA Convention in 1935, Jim Burwell's memory may well have been more accurate on this issue than the date which Bill W. and Dr. Bob tried to reconstruct later on. But the important thing to note is that not EVERYBODY in early AA said that the date was June 10th, as people today tend to falsely assume. - - - - - - - - In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Russ S" wrote: > > Hello Fellow History Lovers, > > Today, on the anniversary of the passing of our > beloved Dr. Bob I received an email saying he > "began his sobriety on or about June 16, 1935." > > I know this issue has been raised in several > previous AAHL posts. > > Has anyone ever tried to check hospital records in > Akron to see when Dr. Bob operated and who the > famous, um, person was, who had to have a "delicate > procedure?" > > Love and Service, > > Russ Stewart > Hooterville, NJ > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3876. . . . . . . . . . . . Use of the word "slip" in early AA From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/20/2006 9:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Not sure about the Grapevine article but the term slip or slipper was used very early on. In Cleveland, ca 1941 (pre-Grapevine which was published 1944) in the rules for hospitals there is a definition of a "retrovert" or "slipper." That definition is "A man or woman who has been sponsored, and has attended at least one A.A. meeting, then takes a drink, is considered a retrovert, or slipper." Responding to Message 3872 from "john.otis" (suzkem at theriver.com) Subject: Early Grapevine article and the word "slip" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3877. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Re: "at" vs. "for" on Big Book p. 66 From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/20/2006 IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Looking at the grammar: "We were prepared to look AT IT..." The antecedent of "it" is "The Inventory." Therefore, "We were prepared to look at the inventory..." "We were prepared to look FOR IT..." The antecedent of "it" is "the key." Therefore, "We were prepared to look for the key..." From a grammatical point of view, either FOR or AT makes perfect sense in that sentence. The meanings are different but both valid sentences. You need to figure out what the groups approved and not what someone thought was better. Or did Bill change it himself? As was obvious in the flap over changed commas in the original Fourth Edition version of "Dr Bob's Nightmare," some of the "editors" who try to "improve" the Big Book have yet to master the English Language. Some changes that "sounded right" to them changed the meanings in subtle ways. _________ Tom E ------------------------------------------------- From: "jimlynch279" (jimlynch279 at yahoo.com) I think to say the sentence with "for" makes no grammatical sense is not accurate. If the phrase is "look FOR it from an entirely different angle," the antecedent of the pronoun "it" is "the key", something that we need, must find and will search for by looking from a different angle. If the phrase is "look AT it from an entirely different angle.", the antecedent of the pronoun "it" is "the list," something that we have available for review and will gain more infomation from if we view it from a different angle. Jim L xpd in Pittsburgh -------------- Original message ----------------- From: "Charlene C." > Not sure what you are looking for but from a > grammatical point of view, the word "for" makes > zero sense in that particular sentence. > charlene > austin, tx. > > Peter Tippett wrote: --------------> > In a Big Book Study while reading page 66 from my > 3rd Edition I read, "We turned back to the list, > for it held the key to the future. We were prepared > to look AT IT from an entirely different angle." > > "AT IT" or "FOR IT"? > ------------------------------------------------- IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3878. . . . . . . . . . . . Ebby''s Philadelphia Adventure From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/19/2006 7:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Philadelphia and Ebby (Edwin Throckmorton Thacher) As Mel B writes in his book "Ebby": on June 1940 Ebby decided to come to Philadelphia. He arrived at 10 A.M and was drunk by noon. He mentions that the Philadelphia mother group was not too keen to help a New York AA due to some rivalry between the cities. He states they got him situated at P.G.H.(Philadelphia General Hospital). Mel states that this recollection was from a 1954 interview and says the Philadelphia Group, which numbered 75, may not have been too keen to help someone who didn't want it. Ebby got out and lived and worked at a mission similar to the Salvation Army for three weeks. He then worked as a porter at a Philadelphia hospital in the cancer laboratory for three months. The September 1940 Philadelphia meeting list does not show his name. With our involvement in World War Two, a 46-year-old Ebby did not have to worry about the draft and with the shortage of able bodied workers he secured employment with the US Navy as an associate inspector of parts. He arrives on the Philadelphia meeting list dated November 1941 as Edw. Thatcher with an address of Lankenau Hospital. Also sharing that address was a Mr. Art O'C. Ebby went in and out and had no trouble finding jobs crating trucks to ship overseas and at Westinghouse at the steam plant division in South Philadelphia. He also worked for the Red Cross packing depot and worked at the AA Clubhouse at 219 S. 36th Street near the University of Pennsylvania as an Assistant Club Steward (1943). Our June 1, 1942 meeting list has him at 242 S. 17th Street in Philadelphia with a phone number of Kin 9881. The same meeting list has Mr. William H. with the same address and phone number. It is interesting to note that this address is close to the offices of Dr. A. Weise Hammer (see AA Comes of Age pg. 190 and Grapevine May 1957). His wife Helen overheard Jimmy B. in a bookstore trying to sell the Big Book and with a Mrs. (Dr.) Dudley Saul (of the Saul Clinic) introduced him to their husbands. They were great friends to A.A. and introduced us to Judge Curtis Bok, of the Philadelphia Municipal Court and Curtis Publishing, the owner of the Saturday Evening Post. (Read 3/1/1941 Saturday Evening Post article "Alcoholics Anonymous" by Jack Alexander.) Dr. Hammer was at 323 S. 17th Street and his alcoholic nephew, Mr. Charles A. D. (Dan) M. lived at 237 S 18th Street. Ed F., the founder of the Northeast Clubhouse, in a tape recorded for the Archives of the Southeastern Pennsylvania Intergroup Association recalled an Ebby anecdote. He was at the 36th Street clubhouse with his sponsor George S. (the first open AA meeting in Philadelphia was at his home). He related that he was the first speaker that evening at the closed A.A. meeting and, "after I finished talking I get back in the room and George S. says Ann G. is having a problem. Now, she is one of the few women we have in A.A. at the time. She lived at 23rd and Spruce in a third floor apartment. Let's go down and see if we can help her. So we jump in my car and Ebby was just going to close the meeting. So we went down to 23rd and Spruce and we're walking up the steps and I'm right in front of George. We get up to the third floor and there's a pig-tail light hanging from the ceiling of the long hall. And here's our friend Ann G. walking down the hall with a little mandarin coat on and a mandarin hat and I swear all I can see was bare legs. So I pointed to her for George and he coughed or said something and she turned around and had a bikini on. So we came up to the top of the stairs and Ann says 'Come on into the front room, the living room.' So we walk into the living room and I started to sit on the couch and she says 'No, no, no. You don't do that.' We sit on the pillows. So she took and put out three pillows out on the floor and it so happens I was sitting on the pillow that looked right down the hallway. And as we're talking, and she had a few drinks on board, and as we're still talking I see this man and women coming down the hall all the way to the other end door, open the door and walk in. The man had two big what looked like shopping bags in his hand. They looked very familiar. I'm looking at them from the back. So I say to Ann, 'Where's the bathroom?' She says, 'It's the third door on the right.' So I walk down the hall right past the third door to the end door that had just been opened and closed. I open the door and I walk in and there's our friend Ebby and Emily his girlfriend sitting at the table each with a quart of beer. I said, 'Well what's the beer?' He said, 'Well, it's all right to drink between meetings.'" Yours in Service, Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3879. . . . . . . . . . . . Just for today card From: dobbo101 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2006 3:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Can anyone tell me where the just for today cards we use in the UK originate from. Also are they used in the rest of the world, USA, etc.? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3880. . . . . . . . . . . . Roland Hazard and Oxford group sponsorship From: Fred . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/22/2006 10:15:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a discussion with a friend about the forging of the fellowship,in many places and different publications Roland Hazard is mentioned and his association with The Oxford Group. The discussion centered around SPONSORSHIP and its origins. Many times Roland Hazard's name is brought into the discussion as carrying the message to Ebby and working with Dr. Sam Shoemaker at Calvary Mission. We could not determine, nor verify any reference to Roland Hazard having an Oxford Group sponsor. The Question for the group is, "Who was Roland Hazard's Oxford Group Sponsor?" IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3881. . . . . . . . . . . . AA birthday celebrations From: robinjshearer . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2006 6:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am curious as to when and how the AA birthday celebration started. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3882. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st alcoholic trustee of AA''s Indenture of Trust ? From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2006 6:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII At the Pioneers Meeting of AA's International Convention last year in Toronto, former AA non-alcoholic trustee Michael Alexander mentions, after the first speaker, about AA having an "Indenture of Trust" and that the first Chairperson was an alcoholic. As a former Chairperson of the Southeastern Pennsylvania Intergroup Association, I know that on the legal papers I was listed as President and CEO rather than Chairperson. This was done for legal purposes. Mr. Alexander states that for this reason all subsequent Chairs have been non-alcoholic so that they can use their full name and so there will be no anonymity concerns. ______________________________ In post 3244 Art S. posted the following, "The first two Alcoholic Foundation Board Chairs were alcoholics: 08/38 to 02/39 - William "Bill" R. Returned to drinking and had to resign. 04/39 to 12/39 - Harry B. Also returned to drinking and had to resign. Following Harry B the board chair has been a non-alcoholic ever since." ______________________________ These two men were the chairs of the Alcoholic Foundation which later became the General Service Board of AA. Who was the chair during the Time of the Indenture of Trust ? Hoping for an answer.. Shakey Mike Gwirtz ______________________________ P.S. The speakers of this Pioneers of AA Meeting were 1. Harry "the Wino" V. my sponsor 2. Margaret C 3. George D [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3883. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Use of the word "slip" in early AA From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/21/2006 12:21:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Use of the word "slip" in early AA Not sure about the Grapevine article but the term slip or slipper was used very early on. The first edition story "The Backslider" clearly explains what the term slip means. In a "spiritual life one is either going forward or backwards and if one continues going backwards, one will surely slip and fall." I used to have an old bible tract book titled "The Backslider." A backslider in most churches is a person who once experienced grace but turned away. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3884. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Use of the word "slip" in early AA From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/25/2006 4:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The word slip, meaning a recovering alcoholic drinking again, is used twice in pp. 1-164 [current editions] of the Big Book, on p. 100 and again on p. 139. Bill W used it in eleven entries of A.A. Way of Life/As Bill Sees It: pp. 11, 28, 68, 99, 153, 184, 197, and 251. He also used it in the article "Ours Not to Judge" in the August 1946 Grapevine. Ernie G's story in the First Edition Big Book was titled "Seven Month Slipper." Nancy O, the founder of this group, used it repeatedly in her bios of Big Book story authors. The word has been in the A.A. lexicon for almost seventy years. Tommy H in Baton Rouge - - - At 23:21 11/20/2006, James Blair wrote: Use of the word "slip" in early AA: Not sure about the Grapevine article but the term slip or slipper was used very early on. The first edition story "The Backslider" clearly explains what the term slip means. In a "spiritual life one is either going forward or backwards and if one continues going backwards, one will surely slip and fall." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3885. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rowland Hazard and Oxford group sponsorship From: diztitcher . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/25/2006 4:41:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have never read anywhere that the Oxford Group ever had sponsorship. Rowland never joined AA, the only one of his friends that did was Cebra Graves. - - - "Fred" asked: Who was Rowland Hazard's Oxford Group Sponsor? - - - From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend): This was not sponsorship in the AA sense, but see Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous. (http://hindsfoot.org/kdub1.html and http://hindsfoot.org/kdub2.html) Courtenay Baylor of the Emmanuel Movement became Rowland Hazard's therapist in 1933, and continued to work with him through 1934. It is under the influence of Baylor's Emmanuel Movement therapy that Hazard actually began to recover. Hazard was also attending Oxford Group meetings, but his family was paying Baylor to be his regular therapist. Boston AA arose out of the context of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club (their group was never part of the Oxford Group, unlike Akron, New York, and Cleveland AA). IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3886. . . . . . . . . . . . Meditation From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2006 3:39:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Glenn C., "Twelve-Step Meditation in the A.A. Big Book and the 12 and 12," describes the way Bill W. recommended that we meditate in Alcoholics Anonymous and in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions. This is a Microsoft Word document, requires MS Word to read: http://hindsfoot.org/medit11.doc (found on page http://hindsfoot.org/spiritu.html) In the eleventh step, "meditation" does not mean the same thing as the Hindu technique called Transcendental Meditation. But it is recommended that part of our period of morning prayer and meditation be a brief "quiet time." Various methods of quieting the mind, including using mental imagery (suggested by Bill W.), Jacobson's method of progressive relaxation, and so on. Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours a Day and Emmet Fox's Golden Key. - - - Responding to Message 3857 from "Henrik Rue" henrik.rue@edb.dk (henrik.rue@edb.dk) He asked for "a definition of what meditation was defined as, at the time of writing Alcoholics Anonymous? I do not expect it to be some eastern way of meditation." - - - A NOTE FOR GERMAN-SPEAKING AA's: It is very difficult to translate the English word "spirituality" into German. For German speaking AA's, it is easier to understand what was being talked about in the Big Book by looking at Jakob Friedrich Fries' idea of obtaining an Ahnung (a hint, intuition, or presentiment) of the Infinite, Friedrich Schleiermacher's idea of the Gefuehl (feeling) and Anschauung (intuition) of absolute dependence upon God, and especially Rudolf Otto's idea of the Gefuehl of das Heilige (the awareness of the holy or sacred dimension to reality). That was what Bill W. was talking about in the Big Book on pp. 1, 10, and 12 (the experience at Winchester Cathedral and Bill's grandfather's experience when gazing at the starry heavens above and experiencing what Immanuel Kant called the experience of the Sublime). It is not the same as a Begriff (an intellectual concept). Unfortunately, the philosophy of G. W. F. Hegel (1770-1831) turned the German word Geist into an intellectualized notion (philosophy, political theory, economic theory, legal theory, and so on became die Geisteswissenschaften in post-Hegelian German usage). In German culture to this day, the word Geist therefore tends to have that kind of intellectualized sense. That was why Carl Jung used Latin instead of German to speak of the solution to the alcoholic's problem as "Spiritus contra spiritum." The English word "spirit" still preserves the original meaning of the Latin word "spiritus," so in English we do not have to use the Latin word to make it clear that we are talking about a non-intellectualized realm of immediate feeling and intuitive knowledge and awareness when we speak of the "spiritual." This may help German speaking AA's to understand what is meant by the "quiet time" which is part of our eleventh step morning prayer and meditation. The brief period of quiet time means a few minutes when we stop thinking constantly in terms of Begriffe and open our minds up instead to feelings of gratitude, appreciation, being surrounded by God's love and care, the beautiful and the sublime, the holiness of the universe and everything in it (from the starry heavens above to the wildflowers growing in an Alpine meadow), the moral dimension of our lives, and so on. - - - BIBLIOGRAPHY: Rudolf Otto, "Das Heilige: ueber das Irrationale in der Idee des gottlichen und sein Verhaeltnis zum Rationalen" (1917). The most useful book ever written, I believe, for helping German speaking people in the twelve step program to understand what the English speaking people are actually talking about when they talk about "spirituality" all the time. Friedrich Schleiermacher, "Reden ueber die Religion" (1799), English translations use titles like "Speeches on Religion to its Cultured Despisers." Schleiermacher was part of the same world as Goethe, Novalis, Hoelderlin, and Schelling (and in music Mozart, Beethoven, and Wagner). The tradition of German spirituality (in the English sense of the word "spirituality") began with Schleiermacher. Rudolf Otto, "The Philosophy of Religion Based on Kant and Fries" (1931). I assume that the original German edition of this book is available in Germany, but I must apologize, because I do not know the exact German title. Jakob Friedrich Fries (1773-1843) was the first great Kantian commentator (see his "Neue oder anthropologische Kritik der Vernunft"). He applied for the position as Professor of Philosophy at the newly created University of Berlin, but G. W. F. Hegel (who tried to completely intellectualize spirituality, as the unfolding of the Geist in human history through a sequence of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis) was given the position instead. And poor Fries, who had spoken out openly in favor of democracy and having democratically elected parliaments, was stuck at the University of Jena, where the Grand Duke of Weimar (who controlled that area at that time) forbade him to lecture on philosophy for many years, during which time Hegel's style of philosophy took over the German speaking world. There has recently been a revival of interest in Fries' work in both the German and English speaking worlds, so perhaps this brilliant philosopher may finally receive his due. I don't think I agree with Fries' solution to the Kantian problem, but I can guarantee that Kant will never look the same again to anyone who studies Fries' detailed analysis of what Kant was actually doing in his "Kritik der reinen Vernunft," and why Kant's continued assumption of many Platonic concepts of the world made him believe (falsely) that our human minds could not gain access to anything outside the box of space and time in which they were imprisoned. Richmond Walker talks about that part of Kant's thought in many passages in "Twenty-Four Hours a Day," but argues that our minds can in fact pierce through the veil of the box of space and time through a kind of meditation based on feeling and intuition. This little book could also be useful to German speaking AA's, in better understanding the feeling and intuition based experience which is being referred to by the English word "spirituality" in the Big Book. Glenn F. Chesnut, South Bend, Indiana glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3887. . . . . . . . . . . . Circle and Triangle lawsuit From: Edgar . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2006 8:24:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Dec. 1993 Grapevine article says that two companies were sued for refusing to stop using the Circle and Triangle emblem, as requested by New York. More than 100 other companies making doo-dads and trinkets had already acceded to NY's request. My questions are: What companies were those two? What law firm represented AA in what court? What was the outcome of the suits? Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3888. . . . . . . . . . . . The doctor on p. 122 in "The Family Afterward" From: nick675833 . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2006 9:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Who is the doctor that Bill is referring to on the bottom of page 122? regards nick - - - "A doctor said to us, 'Years of living with an alcoholic is almost sure to make any wife or child neurotic. The entire family is, to some extent, ill.'" - - - Note from the moderator: this is the "founding manifesto" (if we may) of Al-Anon Family Groups, Alateen, Adult Children of Alcoholics, and the other twelve step groups which were formed to deal with this enormous problem. Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3890. . . . . . . . . . . . Significant December Dates in A.A. History From: chesbayman56 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/1/2006 12:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Dec Dec 1934 - Bill and Lois start attending Oxford Group meetings. Dec 1934 to May 1935 - Bill works with alcoholics, but fails to sober any of them. Lois reminds him HE is sober. Dec 1938 - Twelve Steps written. Nov/Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford Group. Meetings moved from T Henry and Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and other members homes. Dec 1939 - First AA group in mental institution, Rockland State Hospital, NY. Dec 1939 - 1st home meeting in Los Angeles at Kaye M.'s house. Dec 1939 - Matt Talbot Club has 88 members, uses wagons to collect old furniture to recondition and sell, not A.A., used A.A. program, material, marked 1st effort reach alcoholics outside married middle- class category. Dec 1940 - 1st AA group formed in St. Louis, Missouri. Dec 1940 - group started Ashtabula, Ohio due to Plain Dealer articles. A.A. Cleveland has about 30 groups. Dec 1948 - Dr. Bob's last major talk, in Detroit. Dec 1950 - Grapevine article signed by both Bill and Dr Bob recommend establishing AA General Service Conference. Dec 1955 - 'Man on the Bed' painting by Robert M. first appeared in Grapevine. Painting originally called 'Came to Believe' Dec 1982 - Nell Wing retires from GSO after 35 years of service. Dec 1, 1940 - Chicago Daily Tribune begins a series of articles on AA by Nall Hamilton. Dec 5, 1985 - Dave B, founder of Montreal Group dies weeks before 50th anniversary. His story added to the 4th Edition Big Book. Dec 6, 1939 - Bert the Tailor lends Works Publishing $1000. Dec 6, 1979 - Akron Beacon reports death of Henrietta Sieberling. Dec 7, 1949 - Sister Ignatia received Poverello Medal on behalf of A.A. Dec 10, 1975 - Birds of a Feather AA group for pilots is formed. Dec 11, 1934 - Bill admitted to Towns Hosp 4th/last time (fall '33, '34 in summer, midsummer and final admittance). Dec 11, 1941 - Dallas Morning News reports 1st AA group formed in Dallas. Dec 12, 1934 - Bill has Spiritual Experience at Towns Hospital. Dec 12, 1937 - Bill meets with Rockefeller Foundation and tries to get money. Dec 13, 1937 - Rockland State Mental Hospital takes patients to meeting in New Jersey. Dec 13 or 14, 1934 - Ebby visited Bill at hospital, brought William James's book, "Varieties of Religious Experience". Dec 19, 1939 - Los Angeles hold their 1st AA meeting there. Dec 20, 1945 - Rowland H dies (he carried the Oxford Gp message to Ebby). Dec 27, 1893 - Rev Samuel Shoemaker is born. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3891. . . . . . . . . . . . Baltimore Chip House -- name of chart on wall From: twelvestepswetook . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2006 2:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'm trying to locate the name of a consumption chart that was on the wall of the Baltimore Chip House (Charles Village meeting on Calvert Street) when I got sober there in 1991. I don't think it was Dr. Jellinek's curve, although it may have been a variation. It showed how an alcoholic's tolerance would increase to a certain point and then start going down as the disease progressed. I was told that this had been hanging on the wall in the Chip House for many years, and when I was there it was on the main floor near the staircase. Thanks to anyone who might know the answer to this, I'm on the West Coast now and can't look myself to see if it's still there! IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3892. . . . . . . . . . . . Fulton Oursler Article From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/29/2006 8:34:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "High Praise for the Charm of Recovering Alcoholics" by Fulton Oursler There are times when I wish I were an alcoholic. I mean I wish I were a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. The reason is that I consider the AA people the most charming in the world. Such is my considered opinion. As a journalist, it has been my privilege to meet many people who are considered charming. I number among my friends stars and lesser lights on stage and cinema; writers are my daily diet; I know ladies and gentlemen of both political parties; I have been entertained in the White House; I've broken bread with kings, ambassadors and ministers; and I say that I would prefer an evening with my AA friends to any person I've indicated. I asked myself why I considered so charming these alcoholic caterpillars who have found their butterfly wings in AA. There are more reasons than one, but I can name a few. The AA people are what they are, and they are what they were, because they are sensitive, imaginative, possessed of a sense of humor, an awareness of the universal truth. They are sensitive, which means they are hurt easily, and that helped them become alcoholics. But when they found their restoration they are as sensitive as ever; responsive to the beauty and the truth and eager about the intangible glories of this life. That makes them charming companions. They are possessed of a sense of universal truth that is often new in their heart. This fact that this at-one moment with God's universe had never been awakened within them is the reason they drink. They have found a power greater than themselves, which they diligently serve. And that gives them a charm that never was elsewhere on the land and sea; it makes you know that God is charming, because the AA people reflect his mercy and forgiveness. They are imaginative, and that helped make them alcoholics. Some of them drank to flog their imaginations onto greater efforts. Others guzzled only to block out unendurable visions that arose in their imaginations. But when they found their restorations, their imagination is responsive to new incantations and their talk abounds with color and might, and that makes them charming companions, too. They are possessed a sense of humor. Even in their cups they have known to be damnably funny. Often it was being forced to take seriously the little and mean things of life that made them seek their escape in the bottle. But when they found their restoration, their sense of humor finds a blessed freedom and they are able to laugh at themselves, the very height of self-conquest. Go to their meetings and listen to their laughter. At what are they laughing? At ghoulish memories over which weaker souls would cringe in useless remorse. And that makes them wonderful people to be with by candlelight. (Fulton Oursler was a magazine editor, religious author, and Hollywood screenwriter, and was an early Oxford Group member and friend to AA. He passed away in the year 1952. His official relationship with AA is as follows: Sept. 30, 1939, the very popular weekly Liberty Magazine, headed by Fulton Oursler, carried a piece titled "Alcoholics and God" by Morris Markey (who was influenced to write the article by Charles Towns). It generated about 800 inquiries from around the nation. Oursler (author of The Greatest Story Ever Told) became good friends with Bill W and later served as a Trustee and member of the Grapevine editorial board. In Oct. 1949, Dr. William D. Silkworth and Fulton Oursler joined the Alcoholic Foundation Board.) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3893. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Rowland Hazard and Oxford group sponsorship From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2006 4:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Diz wrote: "I have never read anywhere that the Oxford Group ever had sponsorship." They did not formally refer to helping a new man as "sponsorship." They did have a saying that went: "Walk with the new man until he becomes a life changer. Then, leave him alone as the needs of others will drive him back to God." Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3894. . . . . . . . . . . . How many internet AA members? From: spebsqsa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/30/2006 1:03:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Does anyone have estimated numbers on the growth of online A.A. meeting participation? How many A.A. members use their digital meetings as their home groups with little or no face-to-face meeting activity? {Please, this information request is not an invitation to debate the need/value of F2F meetings.] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3895. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Baltimore Chip House -- name of chart on wall From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/2/2006 3:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII http://www.in.gov/judiciary/ijlap/docs/jellinek.pdf this a good link for the Jellinek Curve. see if that looks familiar. I can check on the actual chart. Rob W. Baltimore Robert White UMB-Psychiatry 410-328-8549 >>> "twelvestepswetook" 11/29/06 2:31 PM >>> I'm trying to locate the name of a consumption chart that was on the wall of the Baltimore Chip House (Charles Village meeting on Calvert Street) when I got sober there in 1991. I don't think it was Dr. Jellinek's curve, although it may have been a variation. It showed how an alcoholic's tolerance would increase to a certain point and then start going down as the disease progressed. I was told that this had been hanging on the wall in the Chip House for many years, and when I was there it was on the main floor near the staircase. Thanks to anyone who might know the answer to this, I'm on the West Coast now and can't look myself to see if it's still there! University of Maryland, Baltimore, Department of Psychiatry Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3896. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Rowland Hazard From: ollie_olorenshaw . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2006 7:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have been putting together a one page pictorial history of the formation of AA for my sponsees. I have been unable to find a picture of Roland Hazard. Does anyone know if one exists? many thanks Ollie - - - From the moderator: Mel Barger gave us a photo of Rowland Hazard, taken around 1943 or 1944, which is posted on the internet at: http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html It's an old snapshot taken with a brownie camera, but it should be good enough to get an idea of what he looked like. See the recent research by Amy Colwell Bluhm Ph.D. and Cora Finch. The two of them, working completely independently, came upon the same archival documents and established that Rowland arrived in Zurich in May 1926 (not 1931, the date given in the older AA literature). See Bluhm's article "Verification of C.G. Jung's analysis of Rowland Hazard and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the American Psychological Association's journal History of Psychology in November 2006 and Cora Finch's long account of Rowland Hazard's life and struggles with alcoholism at http://www.stellarfire.org/ if you want to get the most up-to-date information on Rowland Hazard and the period when he was Carl Jung's patient in Switzerland. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3897. . . . . . . . . . . . Money Back Guarantee on 1st edit. Big Book From: sober_in_nc . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/2/2006 2:11:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Someone surprised me the other day with a question I've never heard ... On the dust jack to the first edition, on the back, at the bottom, is a money back guarantee that the publishers will refund the $3.50 and postage, if the buyer is dissatisfied with the book. Do we know how many people took Works Publishing up on this offer? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3898. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Circle and Triangle lawsuit From: hartsell . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/26/2006 7:37:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Edgar, I can not quote you "scripture and verse" but someone here no doubt can and hopefully will, but my memory is that the outcome was A.A. lost, dropped out of the suit, could not of course Prove Their Case. This dropping out resulted in NY stopping the use of the Circle and Triangle as symbol of "official literature"; but of course ANY A.A. CAN use the symbol as it is in the public domain, just as it was at the time A.A. brought suit. My memory of the sequence, and only reason I do recall is because of a personal conversation I had with Wayne P. of Ark. at a NETA function when the whole mess began. Sherry C.H. -----Original Message----- From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edgar Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:25 AM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Circle and Triangle lawsuit The Dec. 1993 Grapevine article says that two companies were sued for refusing to stop using the Circle and Triangle emblem, as requested by New York. More than 100 other companies making doo-dads and trinkets had already acceded to NY's request. My questions are: What companies were those two? What law firm represented AA in what court? What was the outcome of the suits? Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3899. . . . . . . . . . . . Alcoholism and AA in modern American detective novels From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 1:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Richard M. Dubiel, "Sober Sleuths: Lawrence Block and James Lee Burke" (1999), discusses the life and writings of these two best-selling authors of detective fiction, and their fictional heroes Matthew Scudder and Dave Robicheaux, who are portrayed in the novels in sensitive and insightful fashion as alcoholics who got sober in A.A. The article may be found at either http://www.uwsp.edu/comm/rdubiel/research/slueth.htm or http://hindsfoot.org/sleuth.html - - - Prof. Dubiel is an unusually perceptive historian. The influence of AA on popular culture in the United States has been incredibly deep and pervasive. Most other contemporary American historians have not begun to realize this yet, or write about it, but its impact has been at least as great as that of the Great Awakening on the Thirteen Colonies in the period right before the American Revolution, and is well on its way to achieving the same broad cultural influence which Frontier Revivalism had on nineteenth century American history. In the 1940's, the typical fictional hero in American detective literature was a hard-boiled, hard-bitten, hard-drinking character who had a bottle of whiskey tucked in his desk drawer, which he regularly turned to as a solution to all of life's difficulties. But by the 1990's, there were hardly any heroes left in the popular detective novels who were drinking much alcohol at all, and a surprising number who were portrayed as men (and now women too) who had had a history of alcohol abuse, but were now staying away from the bottle and realizing the destructive effect it had had on their lives. And a few were now being protrayed in these novels going to AA meetings and gaining strength and solutions to their problems from the little meetings in the church basements. The two best-drawn characters of this new breed of fictional hero were Matthew Scudder in Lawrence Block's novels (set in New York City, one of the classical settings of the traditional American detective story), and Dave Robicheaux in James Lee Burke's novels (which are placed in a very different kind of setting, the exotic, French-speaking world of Cajun Louisiana, where the strains of "Jolie Blonde" drift from the little dancing and drinking establishments, and Spanish moss drapes from the trees while the ghosts of Conferate cavalrymen ride tirelessly through the mists hanging over the dark bayous). - - - During the same period, one can also see the same quiet spread of A.A. ideas and the ethic of the twelve steps into American television, particularly the sit-coms and comedies. Jokes and comic situations and characters in various humorous episodes revolve around making amends or trying to maintain one's self-affirmation or something else that is clearly drawn from twelve step culture, and -- which is the important part -- the audiences recognize what is going on. There is no air of puzzlement, or "what are they talking about?" They understand the twelve step culture, at least to a certain extent, and they laugh, and keep on turning the television knob back to that station every week. Nineteenth-century frontier revivals were flamboyant and noisy, and everybody in town knew when one was going on. The great revivalists were promoters who went to great lengths to make sure that their pictures and names were put up in lights everywhere people turned. A.A. meetings are quiet and unobtrusive. You can walk past on the street and not even realize that people are sitting around a table in the basement of the building, talking about the twelve steps. The anonymity rules in the twelve traditions have, as their almost sole purpose, restraining the flamboyant promoters (of whom the fellowship has many!) until they are safely dead. So A.A. comes into a town, and no one notices it all that much, at the conscious level. But it is said that every alcoholic who keeps on drinking has a traumatically destructive effect upon a great number of "earth people," non-alcoholics (both in the family and the workplace and elsewhere), and we can see that the reverse must also be true, by observing what has happened in the United States over the past seventy years. Recovered alcoholics can redeem their pasts by quietly spreading an atmosphere of peace and harmony and personal responsibility for one's actions to the "earth people" around them, not by preaching, but by actually living by the principles of the twelve steps and twelve tradtions. "You are the salt of the earth," it says in the Sermon on the Mount, where even a tiny pinch of salt can give flavor to the entire dish. Something good may be happening in the United States, and we hope that it will keep on happening. And as we can see from the fictional exploits of Matthew Scudder and Dave Robicheaux, we don't have to be boringly conventional people in the way we do it, or totally destroy our alcoholic love of words, and our love of flamboyance and romance and adventure and our larger-than-life enthusiasms. We just have to learn how to do it in ways where we don't hurt people. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) - - - Lawrence Block's novels A Dance at the Slaughterhouse. NewYork: Avon, 1992. Even the Wicked. New York: William Morrow, 1997. Everybody Dies. New York: William Morrow, 1998. In the Midst of Death. 1976. New York: Avon, 1992. The Sins of the Father. 1976. Arlington Heights, IL.: Dark Harvest, 1992. When the Sacred Ginmill Closes. New York: Arbor House, 1986. - - - James Lee Burke's novels A Morning for Flamingos. 1990. New York: Avon, 1991. Black Cherry Blues. 1989. New York: Avon, 1990. Heaven's Prisoners. New York: Henry Holt, 1988. Sunset Limited. New York: Doubleday, 1998. The Neon Rain. 1987. New York: Pocket Books, 1988. - - - Richard M. Dubiel is also the author of "The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous" (2004), the book which first opened up the question of Rowland Hazard's real relationship to the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung. http://hindsfoot.org/kdub1.html http://hindsfoot.org/kdub2.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3901. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Meditation From: Kimball ROWE . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/27/2006 6:08:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The only true test of Step 11 Prayer and Meditation is contained in the step itself, "Did your prayer and meditation improve your conscious contact with God?" If all you get out of meditation is a relaxed feeling or an empty mind, perhaps you should abandon what you're doing and try something new. As with the Big Book and the 12 by 12, there are specific topics and subjects to focus on in meditation (BB, pgs 69, 83, 86-87, 12X12, pg 99). As Father Joe once said, "Meditation is the contemplation of God's truth for me." From that simple statement, I can extract all of BB pgs 86-87 and the 12x12 pg 99, and much much more. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3902. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The reading of "How it Works" at the beginning of meetings From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/28/2006 3:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I found the following when I got bored in a meeting and started browsing through my PDA. It is from Significant March Dates in A.A. History from the series that is posted here monthly: "March 1940 - Mort J. came to LA from Denver; started custom of reading Chapter 5 Big Book at Cecil group." Now the question may be, was it a custom in the Denver area to read How It Works at the start of meetings? Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3903. . . . . . . . . . . . A ceremony at Towns Hospital at noon on Dec. 10 From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/2/2006 4:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AAHistoryLovers et al, I have a new date for December, I just received and confirmed an invitation to attend a Candle Lighting Ceremony to honor Bill's Spiritual Experience and his subsequent sobriety at Town's Hospital in New York City. If any of you are interested, four of my AA friends from Mexico City, myself and a sponsee (from Akron) will be there the ceremony at 11:59pm just before Noon on the 10th of December...it is our great hope that some of you might join us there for a moment of reflection...at 11.59pm a candle will be lit inside the window there... followed by the lighting of two lights outside, one for Bill and one for Doctor Bob...other lights will be lit and passed on from the first. This will be the second year that this ceremony has been held and the first that it was opened, as here, to the fellowship and friends of AA. I hope that we might see some of you there. Thankyou for your interest, Best Wishes in this busy Season of Holidays and Celebration, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3904. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photo of Rowland Hazard From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/2/2006 8:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The photo of Rowland Hazard is posted on the internet at: http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html Hi Ollie, Here's all I have on Rowland Hazard. This photo was obviously taken in 1943 or 1944, as it shows their son Peter in his Naval officer's uniform, and he had most likely just graduated from officers' training school or perhaps flight school. They are in front of their home in Peace Dale, Rhode Island. Peter was lost in early 1945 and was listed as missing in action when Rowland died. The brief account of his death is recorded in a book titled "The Little Giants," published by the Naval Institute. He was a pilot on one of the baby flattops and was killed while pursuing a Japanese Val; he flew through some flak from our own antiaircraft guns. The Hazards had previously lost another son as a result of an accident, so they had their share of profound grief. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3905. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photo of Rowland Hazard From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/2/2006 9:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I see the Brattleboro Retreat referred to again as the Asylum. My maternal grandmother lived in Brattleboro as did an aunt and uncle. The locals call it "The Retreat" and their web site says the term goes back to when it was founded in 1834. I have sent them an email asking what the historical name of the institution was and if it changed from asylum to retreat, when that happened. Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3906. . . . . . . . . . . . "Qualification" From: johnpublico . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 3:10:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Lawrence Block, in his Matthew Scudder detective series set in NY City, uses "qualification" and "qualifying" in apparent reference to an AA speaker's story. In Charlotte and several other cities where I've attended meetings, I've never encountered this usage. Can anyone tell me whether the terms are still used and if so how widespread they are? John IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3907. . . . . . . . . . . . Tommy H. on Big Book changes ("at" vs. "for") From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 3:01:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) We had the "at" vs "for" discussion and I have found where As Bill Sees It changed the wording of "Deep down . . . . is a fundamental idea of God" from p. 66. As Bill Sees It has "idea of a God," which is a lot different. It's like that in the first printing. There are a number of changes, but the editors tell us some changes are made "in the interest of clarity." They changed victory in the 3rd Step Prayer to transcendence, but that doesn't seem to me to add clarity. Tommy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3908. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: A ceremony at Towns Hospital at noon on Dec. 10 From: doclandis@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 9:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "ceremony at 11:59 pm just before Noon on the 10th of December" I hope that you mean 11:59 a.m., instead of p.m., because while noon does eventually follow midnight, it is 12 hours away. Then again, perhaps we should bring really BIG Candles! It sounds like a really cool gathering. I wish I could be there. Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3909. . . . . . . . . . . . Is there a distinctive "California AA"? From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 12:40:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Has there been, historically, a distinctive kind of "California AA"? In another forum, I recently made a (mistaken?) off-the-wall comment, using the phrase "California Program" and "California AA" . . . and I'm wondering . . . where did this originate and what exactly was it meant to convey, if anything? I know I did not make it up . . . I've heard it all my AA life (I'm on the East Coast, never been to meetings west of Denver, but plenty of others in other parts of this side of there . . . and I've heard the phrase more than once, usually by "old timers" in "fundamentalist" type meetings. My suspicion is that it came about probably in the same way as did other similar type of labels, like "New York AA" and "Akron AA" and "Cleveland Style" . . . Anyone shed any enlightenment on this for me? Jon (Raleigh) 9/9/82 PS: I didn't get a good reaction from some folk who happen to be from California, either. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3910. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Circle and Triangle lawsuit From: jenny andrews . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 4:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Surely "NY" (i.e. presumably GSO) had no power to abitrarily drop the circle and triangle symbol from all our literature etc - surely that would have been a Conference decision? Laurie A. >From: "hartsell" >Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Circle and Triangle >lawsuit > >This dropping out resulted in NY stopping the use >of the Circle and Triangle as symbol of "official >literature." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3911. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Fulton Oursler Article From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 8:28:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Thanks for the posting, Bill---Fulton Oursler beautifully recognized our "language of the heart." When was the article written and where was it published? About Morris Markey, I've heard he was an AA member. The Sept. '39 Liberty article drew a paltry 800 inquiries because the Alcoholic Foundation address didn't accompany it (and it took a search effort by its readers!). A correction came with the March '41 Saturday Evening Post and its watershed 8,000 inquiries --the Post staff most likely took notice of Markey's 1939 piece... Oursler was a great friend to AA and may have initially become more interested in our fledgling Society of ex-drunks after the 1938 Rockefeller dinner, following the 'buzz' around NYC boardrooms leading up to the launch of the Big Book. The nudge to Markey and Liberty from Dr. Towns shows me that Towns utilized his influence for the benefit of AA beyond his large purchase of Works Publishing, Inc. stock. And Dr. Silkworth, AA's pioneer friend of modest means, saved a gift from Oursler, a beautiful Japanese print and silk scarf that was contributed to the AA Archives from Chicago AA in 1996 (through a grand-nephew of Racine, Wisconsin). Silkworth's letter desk may be all that remains on GSO Archives display from that transfer, but the gifts speak volumes of the Oursler-Silkworth friendship. Along a different line of AA history, who were the Reader's Digest editors that nixed an article about AA (a non-starter for its readers) around the same time as the Liberty feature? That's a story of a publication that eventually recognized its error of omission... Best to all, Rick T., Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3912. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The reading of "How it Works" at the beginning of meeti... From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 10:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII A better question might be.. Was there AA in Denver in March 1940 or did Mort find AA from the book and then go to meet Kay Miller and the LA Mother Group when he arrived in LA? See Pg 266 of "Pass it On" for the answer. Yis Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3913. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Qualification" From: sbanker914@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 1:23:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Comments from Susan B., Chris Mahl, Woody (Robert Woodson) in Akron, Mitchell K., Li Lightfoot, Jim Blair, Rick Clowater, Sherry C. Hartsell, Tom White, Carole Seddon, and Glenn Chesnut: - - - johnpublico (keller of ociofcharlotte.com) wrote: Lawrence Block, in his Matthew Scudder detective series set in NY City, uses "qualification" and "qualifying" in apparent reference to an AA speaker's story. - - - NEW YORK CITY (BUT NOT WYOMING) From: sbanker914@aol.com (sbanker914 at aol.com) It has been my experience that "qualifications" are the most common form of AA meetings in NYC. And, yes, a qualification is the telling of the speaker's "experience, strength and hope" for about 20 minutes. Most commonly, the qualification is followed by a "show of hands," where members of the meeting share in response to the speaker's "story." I live in Wyoming in the summertime, and this format is mostly unknown in meetings there. Even in New Jersey where I currently live, a "speaker meeting" is that meeting more commonly known as a "3-speaker meeting" where there is no response time from the members. Since I have been attending NYC meetings for almost 19 years, I am most content and comfortable with this format. Susan B. - - - NEW YORK CITY (BUT NOT MASSACHUSETTS OR NEW JERSEY) From: "chris mahl" (chrismahl at gmail.com) Here in New York City, the terms 'qualification' and 'qualifying' are used everyday. I started in Massachusetts and New Jersey and didn't recall ever hearing it before I moved to New York City in 1988. Chris - - - AKRON From: Robt Woodson (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) John, Those terms are definitely still is use here in Akron, Ohio...the portion of a speaker's lead prior to his or her getting sober is referred to as "qualifying"...sometimes you hear it said that a lead is all "qualifying" meaning that there is very little said about the program or life in sobriety. In some instances there is a concern that a speaker has not "qualified," or shown to the audience that he too is an alcoholic and given grounds for the audience to relate to his or her story. I'm a firm believer that each of us has, in their own way, "qualified" for our seats at the meeting. I hope this helps you to understand the use and perhaps to help gauge the spread of the term used in the active sense "to qualify". Keep your powder dry, Woody in Akron - - - CLEVELAND From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) When Clarence Snyder, originally of Cleveland took people through their steps they "qualified" (told their story) to him as a prelude to the First Step. I've heard the term qualification or qualified in reference to someone telling their story at a meeting, with their sponsor or on a 12 Step call in quite a few places over the years. - - - SAN FRANCISCO From: Li Lightfoot (li_lightfoot at yahoo.com) These terms used in this way are common in the San Francisco Bay Area at present but we also use "sharing" at a meeting to mean the same thing. LL - - - ONTARIO From: James Blair (jblair at videotron.ca) In the province of Ontario, Canada, the chairman at each meeting will "qualify" himself as a alcoholic by telling a bit of his story. I think this is the only province in Canada where this is done. Jim - - - ONTARIO From: "Rick Clowater" (clowaters at rogers.com) I am unsure how the use of "qualifying" is used in other areas but I do know that here in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada that the chairperson "qualifies" as an alcoholic at the beginning of meetings. I suspect also that this is the same throughout the Ottawa Valley area. Not sure if this helps, but the first opportunity I have had to reply to anything on this GREAT site. Thank you all for my sobriety Rick Clowater Uptown Group (Monday Night) Ottawa, Ontario, Canada - - - TEXAS From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) Qualifying: What makes us qualified to speak in the meeting of recovered (ing) Alcoholics. This is why in Texas and many other places sobriety dates are given at the beginning of any talk at an A.A. gathering. Of course this announcement of sobriety dates is also an affirmation for the person stating it. "Our stories disclose in a general way what we were like [identifying ourselves as real alcoholics] what happened [how we came to the 12 Step Program of A.A.] and what we are like now [the results of applying what we have learned from AA]." My understanding of the term's usage. Sherry C.H. - - - WEST TEXAS From: Tom White (tomwhite at cableone.net) I seem to remember the use of qualifying and qualification from NYC in the 1960s and have heard it occasionally more recently in West Texas, where I now live. So I think it is an old and acceptable AA term, although I am not at all sure how widespread its use is. Tom White, Odessa, TX - - - BALTIMORE From: "Carole Seddon" (seddoca at jhmi.edu) The way I have heard it in Baltimore meetings is as follows. The speaker may talk a bit generally and then say I need to qualify -- what it was like, what happened, and how it is now. Carole - - - NORTHCENTRAL INDIANA glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net) In the cities and towns of the St. Joe river valley region in northcentral Indiana, we almost never hear the term "qualifying." We usually call it "giving a lead" when someone tells his or her story at a meeting. We have many more discussion meetings than we do speaker meetings, and in modern times usually have only a single speaker, who speaks for 45 to 50 minutes. Meeting formats and terminology vary all over the U.S. and Canada, and in fact all over the world. We need to get out of the mindset which we sometimes see nowadays, that everyone has to use the same words and do everything the same way. This program is about developing spirituality; it is not a new religion with "sacred rituals" which have to be performed with all the right ritual words and ritual gestures in order to be "valid" and communicate the spirit. Sgt. Bill S. talks about the general custom of having three speakers, who spoke for ten or fifteen minutes each, on Long Island (in the greater New York City area) back in the 1940's, so the three-speaker meeting was a very old custom. In northcentral Indiana, people are often criticized by the old timers when they give long leads, talking only about their bad experiences while still drinking, while explaining nothing about the positive things they learned after coming into the fellowship, and how they learned these things. The old timers will quietly say, "that is a drunk-a-logue, not a real lead." So on occasion I have heard people giving leads say "let me qualify first" and tell a few outrageous drinking stories, before they begin talking about how their sponsors and the good old timers in the meetings taught them lessons about how to live a better kind of life, and their struggles with some of the harder things they had to deal with after getting sober (death of a close family member, going back to school for further education and building a new career, being in the hospital with something very bad wrong, etc.) in order to explain how they learned to use the program to get through even the really bad things. Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3914. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tommy H. on Big Book changes ("at" vs. "for") From: Charlene C. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 6:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Um, I don't have a fourth edition Big Book. Is that where this word "transcendence" is, in the third step prayer? c.cook austin, tx - - - Message 3907 from: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) The editors tell us some changes are made "in the interest of clarity." They changed victory in the 3rd Step Prayer to transcendence, but that doesn't seem to me to add clarity. Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3915. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Circle and Triangle lawsuit From: Gary Becktell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 4:57:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gary Becktell and Sherry Hartsell: there was no conference decision. - - - From: "Gary Becktell" (gk at kitcarson.net) No, Jenny, it was not a Conference decision. It occurred right after the Conference and was a decision based on the recommendation of 'legal counsel.' Since the 'logo' (circle triangle) could not be defended as the 'legal' property of AAWS, it was decided that it needed to be dropped altogether. G - - - Original message No. 3910 from: "jenny andrews" (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com) Surely "NY" (i.e. presumably GSO) had no power to abitrarily drop the circle and triangle symbol from all our literature etc - surely that would have been a Conference decision? Laurie A. - - - From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" (hartsell at etex.net) No CONFERENCE decision that I am aware of, just as there was little conferring prior to instigation of the suit. sherry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3916. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Circle and Triangle lawsuit From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 10:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In April 1993 the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous decided, from the "sense" of the General Service Conference (the sense of the Conference without an approval/disapproval vote), that all AA trademarks and logos would be discontinued. Copyrights would remain in effect for the text phrases "A.A., Alcoholics Anonymous, the AA Grapevine, Inc., and Box 4-5-9." The previous two years saw the discussion and litigation threats brought to the conclusion that the Circle and Triangle logo could not be effectively protected and trademarked for A.A. or the second "General Service Conference" logo. There was also discussion and trepidation that the coin minting companies that refrained from using the logo, in those two years leading up to the 1993 Conference, could counter-sue AAWS, Inc. for loss-of-trade settlements when AA's litigation (and threat of action) was dropped. The counter-suits never happened. The GSB released its decision immediately after the 1993 Conference in a one-page announcement that was communicated to all of AA. And of course, to the public. The 1993 Conference did approve an Advisory Action for all 'future' AAWS literature since 4/93, adding the phrase : "This is AA General Service Conference-approved literature." An Ad Hoc committee, with Delegates and AA Trustees, met on the pending litigation and AA's use of the Circle and Triangle around November 1992 and it released its findings in January '93 before the Conference. I haven't read the Ad Hoc committee Report and have since lost the April 1993 piece, but I made copies of the announcement for the AA groups I participated in at the time. To me, what the Conference decided holds true to the forward-looking perspective of almost all its Advisory Actions. Then, and even today, AA continues to be a self-correcting fellowship when it appears necessary. Advisory Actions are undertaken for the present and immediate future of our Fellowship as solutions, rather than reactions. The voted solution to the logo trademark dilemma added the 'Conference-approved' text. Uncomplicated! Hope this answer helps dispel any gathering myth that GSO (an AAWS, Inc. entity) made the decision. Rick T., Illinois _________________________ On a side note about circles and triangles, I read in the NY Times today that the U.S. Government's 67-year-old Civil Defense logo (used on survival rations and bomb shelter entrances), showing the letters "CD" enclosed in a circle and triangle, will be discontinued as of January 1, 2007. The new logo has an "E" for "Emergency" and no circle and triangle... IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3917. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Photo of Rowland Hazard From: secondles . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 4:31:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Tommy: As you know, I'm a Vermonter too. In my small town of Arlington (southern part of the state) folks just referred to the State Hospital in Brattleboro as "He went to Brattleboro", etc. There was nothing else in Brattleboro of note, so people knew what was meant. It was a hospital for all types of "committed" ailments... not just alcoholism. It is on the other side of the Green Mountains from Arlington. It would be nice if you wrote a post regarding the Annual meeting of History Lovers in Baton Rouge. I think we all here on the web would appreciate that. Best regards, Les Cole Colorado Springs IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3918. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Traditions and Religion From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 11:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would venture to say that people are not making specific reference to a religion by saying they are Catholic or Protestant or Pentacostal or Hasidic or Conservative or Reform Jews. If you talk to a practicing member of the Roman Catholic faith (who swear that they are the one true church) they will tell you that the Protestants are not doing it right. The fundamentalists will tell you that theirs is the true way and that if anyone who does not profess their savior as Lord will go to hell. Descendents of the Tribes of Israel are the same. An Hasidic Jew will look at things differently than a Reform Jew or Reconstructionist Jew. Even within the Hasidic sects there are vast differences. Not all Jews follow the 613 Laws and some will call G-d or God or HaShem or whatever. Alex, do you also wear a "skull cap and fringes" at all times or do you do that only at meetings which what you wrote suggests? While AA itself is not supposed to be allied with any sect or denomination, individual members are not prohibited from expressing their faith. Faith or a belief in God is what made AA work for so many years. Reliance on a Higher Power used to be a good thing in AA. When people talk about Jesus at meetings it does turn some off but it doesn't violate any Tradition. It also doesn't mean they are talking about any specific religion. I would hate to censor anyone's faith or belief just because someone might not like to hear it. AA membership is not based upon conformity unless they's changed that edict for the sake of clarity. > From: "Alex H" > > From an historical perspective, I think most AA > members would collapse into a religious coma if > I began reading from "The Upper Room," "The Akron > Guide to the Twelve Steps" or made suggestions > for further reading from the "The Akron Manual." > > Regarding those with no religion, again > historically speaking, the AA Big Book is rife > with references to G-d and to the Bible. Hiding > from it does nothing to assuage the suspicion > of atheists that something religious might be > going on. > > And again, historically speaking, AA meetings > have usually been made up of folks with different > religions, so when a Baptist, a Catholic and a > Jew call out their respective religion, we know > that all religions are welcome. On the other > hand, throughout AA history we have had the > stories of nominally religious alcoholics who > had tried to solve their problem through their > religion prior to AA and it failed them in some > way. So mentioning a religion is misleading to > the newcomer. > > So... I agree with you Natasha, that folks > should not be calling out their religion, but > if someone insists calling out that they are > a Catholic or a Baptist, you can bet your bottom > dollar that I will shout out good and loud that > I am an Orthodox Jew. Why? Because if I let > their statement stand, some Jewish newcomer > might be sitting in the back and think this was > a congregation of Christians. I shout out to > make sure he will understand that all is well. > I am the "bird in the coal mine." > > BTW, when I attend meetings, I wear a skull cap > and fringes. I look like the guy from Fiddler on > the Roof. If that's not shouting out my religion, > I don't know what is. The same is true with > Catholic priests who attend meetings in their > clerical collars [as was done by Ralph Pfau, > who wrote the fourteen Golden Books under the > name of Father John Doe in the early AA period, > during the years 1947 to 1964]. I would never > deny them the opportunity to wear their collar > and I would call them by their title certainly. > > Alex H. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3919. . . . . . . . . . . . Photo of Dr. Silkworth''s grave From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2006 2:09:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Photo taken by Russ Stewart from New Jersey, of Dr. Silkworth's grave, see http://hindsfoot.org/silky.html Russ tells us how visited the cemetery in a note dated December 6, 2006: I was in Eatontown visiting one of my accounts yesterday afternoon. The meeting went to about 4:00. Afterward, I headed over to the Glenwood Cemetery in West Long Branch, New Jersey, to say thanks to this guy. Although it looks like I took the picture in the dark of night, there was actually a glorious sunset happening during my short visit. What impresses me the most is the humility demonstrated by this simple marker. His wife Antoinette is buried right next to him. She had passed the year earlier, 1950. The other thing was trying to imagine how Bill must have felt standing at this spot in 1951. A year earlier, Dr. Bob had passed. Two of Bill's greatest gifts where gone. "Russ Stewart" (rstewart at ndindustries.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3920. . . . . . . . . . . . Ceremony at Town''s Hospital, Noon , December 10th... (update) From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/4/2006 10:31:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The address (which was omitted in the first posting)... The Charles B. Towns Hospital 293 Central Park West New York, NY Time and Date (corrected)... 11:59 a.m., or, one minute before Noon on December 10th. The Event... A Candle will be lit in the window of the former Town's Hospital, outside two lights will be lit symbolizing Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob...from these two lights, those of us who have gathered will light our own, and hopefully return to our lives, to our homes, and to our groups, with some part of this light remaining in each of us that we might each share a bit of what we have recieved. Town's Hospital is where Bill had his profound Spiritual experience...that's where his sobriety began, and, that's where we'll be. I Hope, once more, that we might see some of you there, or that you might steer someone our way...the idea, begun by my friends from Mexico City, is simply to initiate some kind of annual remembrance of this moment in our history. Again with thanks, Woody in Akron A vision of a fellowship yet to come (BB p. 14)... "While I lay in the hospital the thought came that there were thousands of hopeless alcoholics who might be glad to have what had been so freely given me. Perhaps I could help some of them. They in turn might work with others." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3921. . . . . . . . . . . . Copies of early issues of The Upper room From: Jeff Clymer . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2006 6:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have looked for copies of "The Upper Room" for a long time. Does any one have an idea where I might find copies from that time period? Thanks, Jeff - - - NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: The Upper Room is still published in Nashville, Tennessee. AA members find the Upper Room Chapel there a deeply moving place to visit, almost as moving as Dr. Bob's house. See photo at http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html The problem is finding issues from the second half of the 1930's, when it was a major influence on many of the ideas found in the Big Book. (The synergistic balance between grace and human responsibility, the emphasis on the religion of the heart, the insistence that "faith without works is dead," the atmosphere of tolerance for all other religions, the belief that conversion is only the first step in a life which must be devoted methodically to continual spiritual growth in a carefully organized spiritual program, and so on. See http://hindsfoot.org/protlib.html ) Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3922. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tommy H. on Big Book changes ("at" vs. "for") From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/3/2006 10:43:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just to throw my 2 cents into the mix.... If one looks at the visual meaning and intent of "PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED" in bold capitalized letters in the Foreword to the First edition it is very different than the lower case italics of the same phrase found in the Foreword to the First Edition in later editions. [This is found on page xiii in the fourth edition.] Clarification in the vernacular of the Big Book revisers means that what is written doesn't conform to being all things to all people. It means that it doesn't conform to not wanting to offend anyone or scare anyone away. It means that watering down to "clarify" will continue. _______________________________ > From: Tom Hickcox > (cometkazie1 at cox.net) > > There are a number of changes, but the editors > tell us some changes are made "in the interest of > clarity." They changed victory in the 3rd Step > Prayer to transcendence, but that doesn't seem to > me to add clarity. > > Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3923. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Qualification" From: edgarc@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/6/2006 4:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From John K. (Charlotte), Edgar C. (Sarasota, Florida), and Jon N. (southern California). - - - From: "johnpublico" (keller at ociofcharlotte.com) Thank you all for your great feedback! What a wonderful quilt of many colors is this thing we call AA! John K. Charlotte - - - WEST COAST OF FLORIDA: From: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com) Jim Blair said "in the province of Ontario, Canada, the chairman at each meeting will 'qualify' himself as an alcoholic by telling a bit of his story." That's the way it's done on the West Coast of Florida. Edgar C., Sarasota, Florida - - - SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA: From: Jon Nagle (jfanagle at yahoo.com) Here in Southern California the term qualifying as I have always known it comes into play in a formal setting, e.g. a "speaker meeting" when the speaker tells his/her story encompassing what it was like (qualifying one's alcoholic behavior), how it was, and then what it is like now (sober life). In a more general meeting it seems that we can have a tendency for some of the newer members to lapse into drunkalogues and "over-qualify" if you will. As an earlier member wrote this form of sharing can, if not guided by the leader of a meeting, allow a newcomer to think that he/she is in a group therapy meeting, rather than having the emphasis put on recovery through the steps and reliance on a higher power as the path to recovery. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3924. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Tommy H. on "victory" vs. "transcendence" From: Chris H. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/5/2006 6:33:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII My fourth edition of the Big Book says "victory." Chris H. - - - FROM THE MODERATOR: (Big Book p. 63) "Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of Life." (As Bill Sees It p. 210) "Take away my difficulties, that my transcendence over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of Life." (I'm quoting this from the 23rd printing of As Bill Sees It, which came out in 1989, but haven't compared it with a 1st printing.) - - - Message 3907 from: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1 at cox.net) We had the "at" vs "for" discussion and I have found where As Bill Sees It changed the wording of "Deep down . . . . is a fundamental idea of God" from p. 66. As Bill Sees It has "idea of a God," which is a lot different. It's like that in the first printing. There are a number of changes, but the editors tell us some changes are made "in the interest of clarity." They changed victory in the 3rd Step Prayer to transcendence, but that doesn't seem to me to add clarity. Tommy IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3925. . . . . . . . . . . . The Little Red Book 17th printing From: john . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2006 5:32:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Need date of the 17th printing of The Little Red Book. john wikelkius nov85@graceba.net (nov85 at graceba.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3926. . . . . . . . . . . . Use of "The Upper Room" in early AA From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2006 8:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have collected some passages talking about the use of "The Upper Room" for morning prayer and meditation in early AA, which I give below. Ernie Kurtz is corresponding with the Upper Room headquarters in Nashville about making either a printed version or a searchable electronic version of the 1935-1938 issues available for AA historians. They were interested, but wanted some good solid documentation that this AA tradition (about early AA people reading The Upper Room) could be thoroughly corroborated Are there members of the group who could give us some other citations from written sources from the period between 1935 and 1948 of AA people using "The Upper Room"? (I am using 1948 as the cut-off date, because that is when AA member Richmond Walker published Twenty-Four Hours a Day.) Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) - - - From Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, the official A.A. biography of the cofounder of A.A., pages 71-72, 137-139. and 310-311: "Sue [Dr. Bob's daughter] remembered the quiet time in the mornings -- how they sat around reading the Bible. Later, they also used The Upper Room, a Methodist publication that provided a daily inspirational message, interdenominational in its approach. 'Then somebody said a prayer,' she recalled. 'After that, we were supposed to say one ourselves. Then we'd be quiet. Finally, everyone would share what they got, or didn't get. This lasted for at least a half hour and sometimes went as long as an hour."' "As T. Henry described it, a typical meeting in 1938-39 went like this .... 'Usually, the person who led the Wednesday meeting took something from The Upper Room [the Methodist periodical mentioned earlier] or some other literature as a subject. Sometimes, they selected a theme such as "My Utmost Effort" or "My Highest Goal." There would be a quiet time. then different people would tell something out of their own experience.'" An A.A. old timer named Dorothy S. M., talking about the way Dr. Bob worked with newcomers, mentioned that he would sometimes recommend that they read Drummond's The Greatest Thing in the World. "Those were the three main books at that time: that, The Upper Room, and [Emmet Fox's] Sermon on the Mount." A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (from AA Group No. 1, Akron, Ohio, 1940, Part VI): "Now you are out of the hospital .... First off, your day will have a new pattern. You will open the day with a quiet period. This will be explained by your sponsor. You will read the Upper Room, or whatever you think best for yourself." Mitchell K., How It Worked: The Story of Clarence H. Snyder and the Early Days of Alcoholics Anonymous in Cleveland, Ohio, chapters 3.8 and 5.5. Clarence Snyder told Mitchell that "new people were told they had to read the Bible .... They were instructed to do this on a daily basis. Clarence said that newcomers were also told to read The Upper Room daily and to read The Sermon on the Mount by Emmett Fox." "Clarence believed that in order for a prospective member to get well, his entire family had to get well also .... Family members were invited to attend meetings, were given a copy of the book Alcoholics Anonymous, and were told to read the Upper Room." From A.A. historian Dick B., whose books on A.A. history include "The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous," "The Oxford Group and Alcoholics Anonymous: A Design for Living That Works," and "New Light on Alcoholism: God, Sam Shoemaker, and A.A." In an article at http://www.dickb.com/goodmorn.shtml, Dick says: In the A.A. "spiritual recovery program which produced such a high success rate in the 1930's and early 1940's .... the growth part of the program had a great deal to do with Quiet Time -- a Quiet Time that included Bible study, prayer, receiving revelation from God, and the use of devotional books and periodicals such as The Upper Room as ancillary study materials and as a spur to spending substantial time with God each morning." From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana), The St. Louis Gambler and the Railroad Man: Lives and Teachers of the A.A. Old timers, page 246: John D. ("J. D.") Holmes, the tenth person to get sober in A.A., left Akron in 1938 and moved to Evansville, Indiana, where he eventually was able to start the first A.A. meeting in Indiana. "Although Rhoda was not an alcoholic, she and J. D. held something like an A.A. meeting every Wednesday night in their home in order to help him keep sober .... Like so many A.A.'s from the very early period, J. D. and Rhoda used an extremely popular devotional manual called The Upper Room for their private daily meditation and also to provide a discussion topic for this little Wednesday meeting." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3927. . . . . . . . . . . . The Forgotten Steps (6 and 7) From: doci333 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2006 1:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Good Day AA History Lovers, A while back I read Message #2499, regarding wanted information on The Forgotten Steps. I had read a pamphlet, which was printed and copyrighted by Hazelden in 1981, titled, "The Forgotten Steps" but couldn't put my finger on it at the time. The pamphlet is 14 pages long and deals with the struggles of "working" The Program and finding character defects that just haven't gone away, and suggests looking a Steps 6 and 7 from an entirely different angle. An excerpt: "I've tried so many ways to get rid of them, and they're still there. Something's not working. What am I doing wrong?" There seems to be a persistent feeling of uneasiness in spite of sincere efforts to work the program." "This pamphlet is written in the hope of helping people overcome the obstacles they face in working these Steps." The pamphlet mentions that even with honest efforts in Steps 4 and 5, individuals still are not finding the peace of mind that indicates serenity. "Doubt creeps in, and the recovering person begins to feel inadequate and discouraged about the program of recovery suggested by Alcoholics Anonymous." The pamphlet goes on to point out that: "One of the potentially frightening aspects of working Steps Six and Seven is that they require us to deal directly with God. We are left alone to communicate directly with our God; to look at our relationship with Him in the privacy and loneliness of our own hearts and minds. Very frequently, this problem arises not because we do not want to work these Steps, but because we don't know how."* *"Opinions expressed are solely those of the author of the pamphlet." Another frightening aspect, in a "nut-shell": "Are we so ashamed of our acts that we cannot bear to look at them ourselves, much less share them with such a powerful being? One must wonder if these feelings aren't present when we pray like this: 'Dear God, I want to be more honest.' 'Dear God, I want to have more patience.' 'Dear God, I want to be a kinder person.' We are praying for what we want to be, or how we think we should be, instead of simply and honestly telling Him how it really is with us. Wouldn't it make sense, when we come to God with our defects of character, to make a statement of what our condition is rather than what we want it to be? Steps 6 and 7 really don't mention, 'gimme,' 'gimme,' as I so often gave God my shopping list. Steps 6 and 7 do mention, 'remove.' I know now that I was still controlling and manipulating my environment. For the healing of my Alcoholism, began when I admitted that I was powerless over alcohol and not when I continually asked, "make me a normal drinker." Some further excerpts: "Coming back to Steps Six and Seven, perhaps we need to remember the problems we encountered with Step One. Maybe we need to begin our prayers with an honest statement of how it is! 'Dear God, I am impatient.' 'Dear God, I am an intolerant person.' 'Dear God, I do lack faith.' 'Dear God, I am an unkind person.' Present Him with the reality of ourselves, instead of our dreams and wishes of how we want to be." Further excerpts: "Maybe this is an area in which we could make use of the willpower that was so useless to us in our attempts to stop drinking on our own. Will is simply the power to choose. We have the power to choose to do whatever we need to do to nourish our faith, no matter how tenuous it may be. We can choose to go to meetings. We can choose to read the daily readings. We can choose to attempt to live the Twelve Steps honestly. We can choose to go to any length in pursuit of sobriety. We can choose to pray unselfishly. So it is with our character defects. We can choose to identify them, to become aware of them and accept them and, as a result, gain some measure of strength to manage them, instead of being managed by them. We can choose to share them honestly with our Higher Power, to tell it like it is and to ask His help in their removal, believing that He will remove them." Just passing it on, David G. Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3928. . . . . . . . . . . . The Upper Room and Travis Park Church in San Antonio From: James R . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2006 1:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was interested to see the reference to the role Travis Park Methodist Church of San Antonio played in the origins of "The Upper Room." That church provides meeting space for two AA groups. I've attended many meetings there. Jim C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3929. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Victory" vs. "Transcendence" From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2006 7:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I originally wrote: The editors tell us some changes are made "in the interest of clarity." They changed victory in the 3rd Step Prayer to transcendence, but that doesn't seem to me to add clarity. Tommy - - - In the Big Book what has come to be known as the Third Step Prayer is found on p. 63 and it has a sentence that starts, "Take away my difficulties, that victory over them . . ." Page 210 of As Bill Sees It/The A.A. Way of Life, quoting p. 63, has the same sentence but with different wording, "Take away my difficulties, that my transcendence over them . . ." Victory is used in all four editions of the Big Book and in the "Original Manuscript"[s] I've seen. So, my question is why the compilers and editors of ABSI/AAWL saw fit to change the wording of the Third Step Prayer? Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3930. . . . . . . . . . . . Bleeding deacons or bleating deacons? From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2006 2:19:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Once upon a time, there was a discussion whether the original term for a certain type of frustrated leadership was "bleeding deacons" or "bleating deacons." Might anyone recall how that was settled, if it was -- and, of course, the evidence adduced? Thanks. ernie kurtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3931. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bleeding deacons or bleating deacons? From: James Blair . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2006 12:19:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bleeding deacons or bleating deacons? Once upon a time, there was a discussion whether the original term for a certain type of frustrated leadership was "bleeding deacons" or "bleating deacons." This term was used in a GV article and it was Bleating Deacon. I can't remember the year. Jim IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3932. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Little Red Book 17th printing From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/8/2006 11:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The title page of the 17th printing says 1963 - - - At 16:32 12/8/2006 , john wikelkius wrote: >Need date of the 17th printing of >The Little Red Book. - - - The title page of the 17th printing says 1963 while the list of "to date" printings on the copyright page says that the immediately previous printing came out in 1962, which was also the year the 16th printing was published. Coll-Webb published the first printing in 1946 and two printings in 1947. There was one printing a year thru the 24th in 1970 except for no printings in 1956 and 1958. I would suspect the publishing date was 1963. Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3933. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Little Red Book 17th printing From: dudleydobinson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2006 6:53:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi, I have a copy of the 17th printing and it lists on the copyright page all printing dates from 1st to the 17th which it states as being 1962. However I think this is a mistake as the title page gives 1963 and later printings give the printing date as being 1963. Hope this helps. In fellowship, Dudley IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3934. . . . . . . . . . . . Little Red Books From: DudleyDobinson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2006 5:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Tommy I agree with your posting except that there was a 25th printing in 1970. I have a complete collection from 1st to 25th with the exception of the 10th printing in 1954, which I have been looking for since 2002. Can anybody help? In fellowship - Dudley [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3935. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bleeding deacons or bleating deacons? From: Azor521@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2006 12:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In a message dated 12/9/2006 jblair@videotron.ca (jblair at videotron.ca) writes: This term was used in a GV article and it was Bleating Deacon. I can't remember the year. - - - AA Grapevine 1962 and 1963 "Bleating Deacons' Corner" "Bleeder's Bleat" AAGrapevine.org .... AA Grapevine Digital Archive Azor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3936. . . . . . . . . . . . The different printings of The Little Red Book From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2006 5:38:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In the case of The Little Red Book, determining which printing you are using, and when it came out, is more important for the AA historian than with any other early AA book. Edward A. Webster (sober October 10, 1942, died 1971) made what were sometimes fairly substantive changes in The Little Red book during the early years (see http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html ), from 1946 to 1949, which was the last edition where we had Dr. Bob checking through the material and making additions and corrections. (Dr. Bob died on November 16, 1950.) Ed Webster however continued to make changes at times in the editions of The Little Red Book which appeared subsequently, all the way down to the end of his own life (he died in 1971, the same year as Bill Wilson). Ed's wife sold the copyright to Hazelden, where they have unfortunately continued to make changes all the way down to the present, most of them made by some Hazelden editor who did not have Ed's skill or intelligence or knowledge of the program, but thought that he or she could change the wording of a sentence slightly to make it "read more smoothly." It's frustrating, because it's a bit like some of the Victorian editors who thought they could improve Shakespeare's wording ("What did Shakespeare know about writing good English, or the proper way of constructing a play?" they apparently thought to themselves). It would be nice to have a volume containing the text (exactly as the material was originally printed) of the 1946 printing and the last of the two 1949 printings, because of their importance for early AA history. Dr. Bob was not a skilled writer in the way that Bill W. was, so The Little Red Book is the closest we are going to get to understanding the details of the way Dr. Bob taught the AA program to newcomers. It nevertheless gives us a clear enough picture of the way Dr. Bob thought, to show the falsity of some of the recent claims, made by various people, that they have reconstructed "original Akron AA" on the basis of a few spotty bits of anecdotal evidence and statements by people like Frank Amos. Because we have a few people today (some of whom have written in to the AAHistoryLovers) arguing that "meetings are not important, and I can PROVE it from conference approved literature" [sic] it is probably important to post a note on that particular claim here. Frank Amos was a good man, but he was not an alcoholic, not a participating member of any AA group, and was simply the representative of John D. Rockefeller, Jr., making a quick report in February 1938 based on a few days of investigation, see Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, pp. 129-134. Frank Amos' statement, for example, that "It is important, BUT NOT VITAL, that he meet frequently with other reformed alcoholics and form both a social and religious comradeship," was blatantly untrue. This can be disproved from reading the rest of Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, where it is clear that the early Akron AA's usually dropped by Dr. Bob and Anne's house at least once a day, either for the morning meeting (where they read most commonly from the Bible or The Upper Room, and discussed what they had gotten from the reading and from the prayerful period of Quiet Time which followed) or by coming over to their house in the evening, to engage in fellowship with other recovering alcoholics. No, boys and girls, the importance of meetings (and other kinds of fellowship with other recovering alcoholics, in the form of a telephone call or an exchange of emails, if in no other way) is one of the most important parts of the program. The good old timers in my area of the country have regularly observed that at least 90% to 95% of the AA people who go back out and start drinking again, FIRST stopped attending meetings. The slide downhill often starts very slowly -- "it's raining out, and I think I'll skip just this one meeting" (never stopped any of us from going out when we ran out of liquor in the house, did it now?) -- "I'll cut back and go to one less meeting a week, so I can watch TV" (or go bowling or what have you) -- but gradually these people on the downhill slide go to fewer and fewer meetings, until they are not attending any at all. And some of them continue to stay off the booze in spite of that. But again, at least 90% to 95% of the alcoholics who got sober in AA but return to drinking, FIRST stopped going to meetings. Rich Dubiel's book on the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club (the only other twentieth century groups which had significant success in getting alcoholics sober) makes clear by its title one of the most important things which Rich observed: it was fellowship among recovering alcoholics (combined with a little bit of non-denominational spirituality and a little bit of lay psychological therapy) which enabled those two groups to be successful. Richard M. Dubiel, "The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous" (2004) -- http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html For those who want a "scientific theory" of why fellowshiping with other alcoholics is so important, in a book which will be coming out in early 2007, a good sociologist, Annette R. Smith, Ph.D., in "The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous: How It Works," is going to lay out the details of the process through which newcomers to AA heal their lives by slowly becoming more and more involved in what she calls "the social world" of AA. Dr. Smith argues that looking only at the formal organizational structure of AA does not tell us nearly enough about where the healing is coming from. The picnics and dances are just as important, along with going out for pie and coffee before or after the meeting, learning to know the other members of the group at a deep personal level, talking to people on the telephone, and building up a strong support network of people whom we can call on at any hour of the day or night, and who will come to us instantly (without us even having to ask them) whenever they hear that we are in the hospital or have a family member dying or have just lost our job or any of the other slings and arrows which life can throw at us. But to get back to the main point, reading early AA literature like The Little Red Book (which gets us closer to Dr. Bob's mind than anything else we have) can help keep us from developing hare-brained ideas and theories about early AA, and keep us sensible and squarely on the beam. A book containing the 1946 first edition of The Little Red Book, together with the last of the two 1949 editions (where under Dr. Bob's impetus a good deal of additional excellent material had been inserted in the book) could help the modern AA fellowship enormously, in terms of giving us some solid and guaranteed workable guidelines for getting sober in AA, and continuing to grow spiritually, so that our lives might continue to grow ever more serene and filled with joy and satisfaction. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3937. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Use of "The Upper Room" in early AA From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2006 2:02:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As you quote Dorothy S. M. as an "old-timer" please note that Dorothy was Clarence's wife. It was Dorothy Snyder, Ruth Hock, Bill Wilson and Hank Parkhurst who visited Cornwall, NY (Orange County NY) to visit Cornwall Press to review, finalize and approve the finaly galleys of the Big Book First Edition First Printing. ======================================================= > I have collected some passages talking about the > use of "The Upper Room" for morning prayer and > meditation in early AA, which I give below. > > Ernie Kurtz is corresponding with the Upper Room > headquarters in Nashville about making either > a printed version or a searchable electronic > version of the 1935-1938 issues available for > AA historians. > > They were interested, but wanted some good solid > documentation that this AA tradition (about > early AA people reading The Upper Room) could > be thoroughly corroborated > > Are there members of the group who could give us > some other citations from written sources from > the period between 1935 and 1948 of AA people > using "The Upper Room"? > > (I am using 1948 as the cut-off date, because > that is when AA member Richmond Walker published > Twenty-Four Hours a Day.) > > Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) > > - - - > > From Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, the official > A.A. biography of the cofounder of A.A., pages > 71-72, 137-139. and 310-311: > > "Sue [Dr. Bob's daughter] remembered the quiet > time in the mornings -- how they sat around reading > the Bible. Later, they also used The Upper Room, > a Methodist publication that provided a daily > inspirational message, interdenominational in its > approach. 'Then somebody said a prayer,' she > recalled. 'After that, we were supposed to say one > ourselves. Then we'd be quiet. Finally, everyone > would share what they got, or didn't get. This > lasted for at least a half hour and sometimes went > as long as an hour."' > > "As T. Henry described it, a typical meeting in > 1938-39 went like this .... 'Usually, the person > who led the Wednesday meeting took something from > The Upper Room [the Methodist periodical mentioned > earlier] or some other literature as a subject. > Sometimes, they selected a theme such as "My > Utmost Effort" or "My Highest Goal." There would > be a quiet time. then different people would > tell something out of their own experience.'" > > An A.A. old timer named Dorothy S. M., talking > about the way Dr. Bob worked with newcomers, > mentioned that he would sometimes recommend that > they read Drummond's The Greatest Thing in the > World. "Those were the three main books at that > time: that, The Upper Room, and [Emmet Fox's] > Sermon on the Mount." > > A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (from AA Group > No. 1, Akron, Ohio, 1940, Part VI): > > "Now you are out of the hospital .... First > off, your day will have a new pattern. You will > open the day with a quiet period. This will be > explained by your sponsor. You will read the > Upper Room, or whatever you think best for > yourself." > > Mitchell K., How It Worked: The Story of Clarence > H. Snyder and the Early Days of Alcoholics Anonymous > in Cleveland, Ohio, chapters 3.8 and 5.5. > > Clarence Snyder told Mitchell that "new people > were told they had to read the Bible .... They > were instructed to do this on a daily basis. > Clarence said that newcomers were also told to > read The Upper Room daily and to read The Sermon > on the Mount by Emmett Fox." > > "Clarence believed that in order for a prospective > member to get well, his entire family had to get > well also .... Family members were invited to > attend meetings, were given a copy of the book > Alcoholics Anonymous, and were told to read the > Upper Room." > > From A.A. historian Dick B., whose books on A.A. > history include "The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics > Anonymous," "The Oxford Group and Alcoholics > Anonymous: A Design for Living That Works," and > "New Light on Alcoholism: God, Sam Shoemaker, > and A.A." In an article at > http://www.dickb.com/goodmorn.shtml, Dick says: > > In the A.A. "spiritual recovery program which > produced such a high success rate in the 1930's > and early 1940's .... the growth part of the > program had a great deal to do with Quiet Time > -- a Quiet Time that included Bible study, prayer, > receiving revelation from God, and the use of > devotional books and periodicals such as The > Upper Room as ancillary study materials and as > a spur to spending substantial time with God > each morning." > > From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana), The St. > Louis Gambler and the Railroad Man: Lives and > Teachers of the A.A. Old timers, page 246: > > John D. ("J. D.") Holmes, the tenth person to > get sober in A.A., left Akron in 1938 and moved > to Evansville, Indiana, where he eventually was > able to start the first A.A. meeting in Indiana. > "Although Rhoda was not an alcoholic, she and > J. D. held something like an A.A. meeting every > Wednesday night in their home in order to help > him keep sober .... Like so many A.A.'s from the > very early period, J. D. and Rhoda used an > extremely popular devotional manual called The > Upper Room for their private daily meditation > and also to provide a discussion topic for this > little Wednesday meeting." > ____________________________________________________________________________ ____\ ____ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3938. . . . . . . . . . . . Correction - MIDNIGHT at Towns Hospital on December 10th From: mweemwow . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2006 6:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The correct date and time for the ceremony at Towns Hospital is Sunday, December 10, at 11:59 p.m. (just before MIDNIGHT). Janie (mweemwow at yahoo.com) - - - Message No. 3920 from Robt Woodson (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net) said: The Charles B. Towns Hospital 293 Central Park West New York, NY 11:59 a.m., or, one minute before Noon on December 10th. [THIS IS THE PART THAT NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED. THE CANDLE LIGHTING WILL ACTUALLY BE HELD AT 11:59 p.m. OR ONE MINUTE BEFORE MIDNIGHT.] A Candle will be lit in the window of the former Town's Hospital, outside two lights will be lit symbolizing Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob...from these two lights, those of us who have gathered will light our own, and hopefully return to our lives, to our homes, and to our groups, with some part of this light remaining in each of us that we might each share a bit of what we have received. A vision of a fellowship yet to come (BB p. 14)... "While I lay in the hospital the thought came that there were thousands of hopeless alcoholics who might be glad to have what had been so freely given me. Perhaps I could help some of them. They in turn might work with others." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3939. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Use of "The Upper Room" in early AA From: Doug B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2006 3:25:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have all of the Upper Rooms that were printed from 1935 to 1953 with the exception of the Oct/Nov/Dec 1942 issue..... In case anyone needs to check something.... Doug Barrie www.aahistory.com - - - From the moderator: http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html gives some excerpts from some of the issues of The Upper Room from 1938 and 1939, along with some references in various AA written sources to the use of The Upper Room in early AA. Glenn Chesnut IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3940. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Use of "The Upper Room" in early AA From: Hugh Mulliken . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2006 9:14:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a complete set of the Upper Room from 1935 to 1945. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3941. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Bleeding deacons or bleating deacons? From: Jim Lynch . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2006 10:53:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Grapevine of September, 1962 had a column called the "Bleating Deacon's Corner". It featured comments from various members which might be classifed as complaints or criticisms of the way other members behave. The January, 1963 column had a comment from the editor explaining the title as "This is a column where bleeding deacons can bleat". Info gleaned from the Grapevine digital archives. Jim L xpd On 12/9/06, Azor521@aol.com wrote: > > AA Grapevine 1962 and 1963 > > "Bleating Deacons' Corner" > "Bleeder's Bleat" > > AAGrapevine.org .... AA Grapevine Digital Archive > > Azor IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3942. . . . . . . . . . . . Ed Webster, author of The Little Red Book From: Ken Ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2006 8:55:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just a minor irritant, but one that seems to go on and on. Ed Webster's sobriety date is December 13, 1941. As listed in his story in his book Our Devilish Alcoholic Personalities (Hamar Publishers, Edina, Minnesota 1970). Documented in the Archives Collection of the Alano Society of Minneapolis, Inc. It was not October 10, 1942, as given in Message 3936. - - - As an aside, Ed Webster went to meetings there in his very early sobriety, taught Beginner's Classes (in December, 1942) and only left to join his Group (the Nicollet Group) when it sought another meeting place along with (but later than) Barry Collins in 1944. His delay in leaving was to offer support to his friend John Harrington until he finished his term as President of the Alano Society (formerly known and referred to as the Minneapolis Group). As a further aside, Barry Collins (the 1st known sober member of A.A. in Minnesota) was a signatory to the Articles of Incorporation of the Alano Society on March 28, 1942. Ken Ring (former, I think) Archivist/Historian Alano Society of Minneapolis, Inc. - - - Ken, My apology for the mistake. The web pages had been corrected quite a while ago, but not loaded on the web server (which of course didn't do anybody any good!), and I went by mistake to the uncorrected version. The correct dates for Ed Webster are, I believe: born March 21, 1892 sober December 13, 1941 died June 3, 1971 But please do check through the web pages on Ed Webster and early Minnesota A.A., all of which I just reloaded right now, and make sure that I have gotten all the corrections inserted, and did not miss any places where I had the old, incorrect version: http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html http://hindsfoot.org/mnclass1.html http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound2.html Glenn C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3943. . . . . . . . . . . . My Utmost for His Highest From: chief_roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2006 12:25:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII History Lovers, I have found a hardback copy of Oswald Chambers, "My Utmost for His Highest." It is from a 1964 reprint of the original copyrighted in 1935. I recalled reading that this book was read by early AA members. A Google search brought up articles where Dick B. claimed that early Akron AA members read this book, among other devotionals and Christian material. I also discovered a quote claiming Lois Wilson said she and Bill read this book regularly. I would be interested to know if there are more corroborations and details available about the use of this book by AA members and any potential direct impact it played on our fellowship's development. Thank you as always for your wonderfully detailed discussions. Roger W. - - - From the moderator: Can members of the group come up with other early sources and written citations? If some of the early AA people read this book, how widely was it used? Dick B., "Dr. Bob's Library," says on page 32 that "Sue Windows informed the author that her mother and father frequently used [My Utmost for His Highest] as a daily Bible devotional. Lois Wilson informed the author of 'AA The Way It Began' that she and Bill frequently read this devotional." Lois' statement is then footnoted to Bill Pittman, "A.A.: The Way It Began." That book was later retitled "The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous." Pittman's statement is on page 183 of my edition: "According to Lois Wilson, she and Bill frequently read 'My Utmost for His Highest' by Oswald Chambers. This book contains daily inspirational readings which cover all phases of Christian life and service." - - - Oswald Chambers was born in 1874. He was a Scottish minister and teacher. In 1910, he married an American woman named Gertrude "Biddy" Hobbs, who was extremely good at taking shorthand, and transcribed a large number of her husband's lectures, sermons, and meditations. In 1911 he founded and became principal of the Bible Training College in Clapham in London. During the First World War, he became a YMCA chaplain, and he and his wife (and their two-year-old daughter Kathleen) went to Egypt in 1915, where he ministered to soldiers from Australia and New Zealand. He died there on November 15, 1917, from a ruptured appendix. Biddy put together a book containing 366 daily readings, which was published in London in 1927, entitled "My Utmost for His Highest" (the American edition came out later, in 1935). Her foreword explains how she compiled the material: "These daily readings have been selected from various sources, chiefly from the lectures given at the Bible Training College, Clapham, during the years 1911-1915; then, from October 1915 to November 1917, from talks given night by night in the Y.M.C.A. Huts, Zeitoun, Egypt. In November 1917 my husband entered into God's presence. Since then many of the talks have been published in book form, and others from which these readings have been gathered will also be published in due course .... A large proportion of the readings have been chosen from the talks given during the Devotional Hour at the College -- an hour which for many of the students marked an epoch in their life with God." Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3944. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Brattleboro Retreat From: Jan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2006 8:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I'd like to add that, for the past 40 years at least, the Brattleboro Retreat, a private mental hospital that has always been prominent in the treatment of alcoholics in Vermont, is known throughout Southern Vermont as "The Retreat", and in other parts of Vermont as "the Brattleboro Retreat". It is set on the edge of the village of Brattleboro next to a rural area known for a long time as the "Retreat Meadows". Although it is possible that it was known by a different name during the 19th century, I have never once heard it referred to as an asylum, or any other term of that ilk. The Retreat today continues its historic mission of treating alcoholics, other types of drug addicts, and various types of mental illness. AA meetings are held there every week, and have been for decades. Jan S. Vermont ____________________________________________________________________________ ____\ ____ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3945. . . . . . . . . . . . What it was like From: Mike B. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/7/2006 9:37:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Message 3923 talks about: a "speaker meeting" when the speaker tells his/her story encompassing what it was like (qualifying one's alcoholic behavior), how it was, and then what it is like now (sober life). Why do so many people say "what it was like" when the Big Book tells us to say "what WE were like, what happened and what WE are like now?" Mike Barns - - - Well, as a point of fact, the actual text of the Big Book doesn't say what you said either. It says "what we USED to be like." G.C. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3946. . . . . . . . . . . . The Little Red Book 25th printing From: John Wikelius . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/9/2006 6:52:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Was the 25th printing the larger format? "John Wikelius" (nov85_gr at graceba.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3947. . . . . . . . . . . . Meetings and recovery From: David Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/10/2006 12:34:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would like to second the sentiment it would be great if we had access to the original author's last revision of The Little Red Book. In addition, I'd like to comment on the line of historical thought which claims meetings aren't vital to recovery. In order to do this, I'll just list some quotes from "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," From AA Group No. 1, Akron, Ohio, 1940, from Dr. Bob's home group referenced from: http://www.barefootsworld.net/aamanual.html Of course, this has been referenced many times before in this group (see the Search function), so I'm not breaking any new ground here. I just thought I'd cull the statements which mention meetings. Inference is risky, I know, but I "infer" that Dr. Bob's influence on his own group was strong enough to ensure this manual did not go out to the newcomer containing views which he himself did not subscribe to. >>>When your patient is out of the hospital your work has not ended. It is now your duty not only to him but to yourself to see that he starts out on the right foot. Accompany him to his first meeting.<<< >>>There may be a meeting of an A.A. group. Attend it without question. You have no valid excuse except sickness or being out of town, for not attending.<<< >>>Your sponsor will take you to your first meeting. You will find it new, but inspirational. You will find an atmosphere of peace and contentment that you didn't know existed .... After you have attended several meetings it will be your duty to get up on your feet and say something.<<< >>>AT MEETINGS don't criticize the leader.<<< >>>IT HAS BEEN found advisable to hold meetings at least once a week at a specified time and place. Meetings provide a means for an exchange of ideas, the renewing of friendships, opportunity to review the work being carried on, a sense of security, and an additional reminder that we are alcoholics and must be continuously on the alert against the temptation to slip backward into the old drunken way of living. In larger communities where there are several groups it is recommended that the new member attend as many meetings as possible. He will find that the more he is exposed to A.A. the sooner he will absorb its principles, the easier it will become to remain sober, and the sooner problems will shrink and tend to disappear.<<< >>>So attend your first meeting with an open mind. Even if you aren't impressed try it again. Before long you will genuinely enjoy attending and a little later you will feel that the week has been incomplete if you have not attended at least one A.A. meeting.<<< >>>Remember that attendance at meetings is one of the most important requisites of remaining sober.<<< [note: this was bold print in the original document] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3948. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s 1960 response to a Chicago Group From: doci333 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2006 4:20:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Bill W.'s 1960 response to a Chicago Group for taking his inventory Good Day AA History Lovers, In listening to track 8, Disk 7, of "Big Book Workshop" facilitated by Scott L. and Bob D.; read was a response letter which was written by Bill W. to the Chicago group who had sent Bill W. a seething letter taking his inventory. Any of you Buffs know where it may be found in a literature piece for further documentation? The letter reads (as transcribed from the CD): (A letter from a group in Chicago was mailed to Bill W. in 1960, taking his inventory and this was Bill W's response. Bill was 26 years sober at the time.) "That you seemed disillusioned with me personally may be a new and painful experience for you but many members have had that experience with me. Most of their pain has been caused not only by my several shortcomings but by their own insistence on placing me, a drunk, trying to get along with other folks, upon a completely illusionary pedestal; a station which no fallible person could possible occupy." "I'm sure that you will understand that I have never held myself out to anybody as either a saint or a superman. I have repeatedly and truthfully said that A.A. is full of people who have made more spiritual progress than I ever, or can make. That in some areas of living I have made some decided gains but in others I seem to have stood still. And in others, still other ways I may have gone backwards. I am sorry that you are disillusioned with me but I am happy that even I have found a life here." Bill Wilson 1960 Any info would be an AA vitamin for me. Thx. and AA Hugs -0- -0- -0- Dave G. Illinois IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3949. . . . . . . . . . . . Bleeding deacons in the 12 and 12 From: Jim S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/11/2006 8:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII On page 135 in the 12 and 12, as cited in "As Bill Sees It," page 138, the term is "Bleeding Deacons." This would seem to predate a 1962 "Grapevine" column. Jim S. - - - From the moderator. The reference is to the chapter on the Second Tradition, where the section reads as follows: This brings us straight to the question "Does A.A. have a real leadership?" Most emphatically the answer is "Yes, notwithstanding the apparent lack of it." Let's turn again to the deposed founder and his friends. What becomes of them? As their grief and anxiety wear away, a subtle change begins. Ultimately, they divide into two classes known in A.A. slang as "elder statesmen" and "bleeding deacons." The elder statesman is the one who sees the wisdom of the group's decision, who holds no resentment over his reduced status, whose judgment, fortified by considerable experience, is sound, and who is willing to sit quietly on the sidelines patiently awaiting developments. The bleeding deacon is one who is just as surely convinced that the group cannot get along without him, who constantly connives for reelection to office, and who continues to be consumed with self-pity. A few hemorrhage so badly that - drained of all A.A. spirit and principal - they get drunk. At times the A.A. landscape seems to be littered with bleeding forms. Nearly every oldtimer in our Society has gone through this process in some degree. Happily, most of them survive and live to become elder statesmen. They become the real and permanent leadership of A.A. Theirs is the quiet opinion, the sure knowledge and humble example that resolve a crisis. When sorely perplexed, the group inevitably turns to them for advice. They become the voice of the group conscience; in fact, these are the true voice of Alcoholics Anonymous. They do not drive by mandate; they lead by example. This is the experience which has led us to the conclusion that our group conscience, well- advised by its elders, will be in the long run wiser than any single leader. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3950. . . . . . . . . . . . Was it Finland referred to in Concept 12? From: Teemu . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2006 3:52:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello, Bill W. wrote (Concept XII): "In another instance in an overseas area there was some rather bad publicity when a considerable section of the groups there became convinced they ought to accept money subsidies from their country's government to promote A.A. work, the A.A. Tradition notwithstanding. This internal difficulty should not have surfaced before the public because there was certainly nothing about it that mutual understanding and good temper could not have readily handled." Where can I find some document that shows this "overseas area" was Finland? At the beginning of the sixties there was a litigation in Finland (between those who accepted money subsidies and those who did not). Have a great day. Teemu Jyvaskyla, Finland IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3951. . . . . . . . . . . . Leslie D. Weatherhead From: Robyn Mitchell . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/12/2006 6:51:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hey Guys, Has anyone ever read Leslie D Weatherhead? I have three of his books -- 'Discipleship', 'Prescription for Anxiety' and 'A Private House of Prayer.' In 'Discipleship' he mentions the Oxford Group in the introduction, where the 'chapter headings are words which are being very much emphasized at present (1934) by the Oxford Group Movement to which I, personally owe a great debt..' Later in the book he relates how a change in his attitudes came about as the result of having been 'challenged by the Oxford Groups ...' Each chapter is a transcript of addresses he made at a Methodist Summer School, the prose is very accessible and open and there are several phrases which echo the future text that Bill wrote. Does anyone know if Bill read Weatherhead? Regards, Robyn IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3952. . . . . . . . . . . . Just for Today From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/13/2006 10:00:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: Robyn Mitchell (dollyleggs1 at bigpond.com) Hey Guys, A while ago someone asked about where 'Just for Today' came from. In 'How to Stop Worrying and Start Living', Dale Carnegie says that Sybil F. Partridge wrote it in 1912. Regards, Robyn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3953. . . . . . . . . . . . 11th National Archives Workshop in Phoenix, Arizona From: Shakey1aa . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2006 11:16:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Just thinking ahead... the National Archives Workshop is less than 9 months away. All AAHL's, if you can, Mark your calendars for Sept. 6-9 2007 in Bright Sunny WARM Phoenix, Arizona. Shakey Mike and Anne Marie will be there and are looking forward to re- acquainting with Vicki there and everyone who was in Baton Rouge as well as the other cities who previously hosted this fine event. They'll have to go to some length to beat the hospitality shown to us by Bobby and his Louisiana chefs. I've got some idea of the history of this event and know that Akron Intergroup archives was probably responsible. Does anyone have a more detailed history of this workshop? Freezing in the Philadelphia fog, Shakey Mike Gwirtz - - - From the moderator: I have tried to get Gail LaC. in Akron to write up an account of how she and some of her fellow AA people started the workshops in Akron, because that (and Nancy Olson's forming of the AAHistoryLovers in March 2000) were two signs of a major grassroots awareness beginning to arise all over the AA world, that maintaining contact with our historical roots was vitally important to the continued health of AA. My understanding is that the first National Archives Workshop in Akron in 1996 was fairly sparsely attended, but that it went so well, that everyone there insisted that it be continued, and started spreading the word. The Northern Indiana Area 22 Archives Committee tossed me in a van and brought me to the second one, also in Akron, in 1997, and it was absolutely awesome. I got to have dinner with Ernie Kurtz (that is when he and I first met) and meet Mary Darrah, and hear Henrietta Seiberling's son speak. But Gail LaC. is the one who could write this story down with all the details. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3954. . . . . . . . . . . . Who was B. L. from Manhattan, NY? From: rmcmillan5630 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/15/2006 2:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hello all and best wishes! I am doing some research on the Traditions and found a series of articles in the Grapevine Archives written by a B. L., Manhattan, NY. Each article seems to be a "checklist" for each one the traditions. I visited our archives and searched on B.L. to no avail. Can someone help me out, please? Gratefully yours, rm IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3955. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st AA Southern Regional Meeting 1945 From: TBaerMojo@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2006 4:13:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I am looking for original research or reports about the first AA Southern Regional meeting and the first meeting of the Commission on Education with Respect to Alcoholism as created by Act 115 of the Alabama Legislature June 16, 1945. They were held one day apart in September or October of that year. Tim B [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3956. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Just for today card From: chief_roger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2006 6:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII -- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "dobbo101" wrote: > > Can anyone tell me where the just for today cards > we use in the UK originate from. Also are they used > in the rest of the world, USA, etc.? > Your question about the Just For Today card used in Great Britain AA is interesting. I had never seen it in 18 years of sobriety in the USA. I only encountered it after moving to Europe in 2002 and becoming involved in AA through Continental European Region. I have a copy of the Conference Digest from its beginnings 1965-2006. I searched it for references hoping to learn when and if this pamphlet was approved by the autonomous GSC of Great Britain. They do publish much of their own literature now and in addition to creating some helpful products, have sought permission and "anglicized" much AA literature ordinarily published and Conference Approved by the USA/Canada conference. The card as a piece of literature has an interesting history. It seems to have been in use in Great Britain since at least 1971. The Digest is broken down into subject areas. I earliest reference in the section titled AA Members. It appears to be a report from a workshop on how to treat newcomers. 1971 Conference Report AA Members (among other suggestions, this one appears): "Before he leaves the meeting, "Who Me?" - "Just For Today" - "Introduction to AA" and so on, along with a list of the groups available in the area, and possibly at the foot of this an emergency telephone number to ring in case of urgent need. A copy of the "Newsletter" and "The Roundabout" may well help." Under the subject called "Groups" what seems to be a collective response to a question posed to conference, this quote appears. 1974 Conference Report Groups "The response to the question contained in this Committee's title, "What Message?" was immediate and positive: "The message of the programme of recovery as presented in the Twelve Steps, The Twelve Traditions, the Big Book, and the Preamble." Mention was made of the Just For Today Card as being one means of preparing the soil in which the seed of the message will be planted to help the still suffering alcoholic." From 1978 to 1981 reference to this literature appears in the Trustees Literature Committee report. Interestingly they appear to have questioned and determined the copyright had either expired or did not exist and moved to accept the piece as Conference-approved literature. 1978 Conference Report CONFERENCE APPROVED LITERATURE "The committee does not feel able to recommend that the seven leaflets: 15 Points to Consider Introduction to AA Who Me? Just For Today What is AA? Should become Conference Approved literature, although it is accepted that they will continue to be used widely in the Fellowship as aids, particularly to new members, in achieving and maintaining sobriety." 1979 Conference Report LITERATURE "iv) Copyright. It was reported to the committee that the leaflet "Just For Today" was no longer covered by the copyright laws and that it could be freely printed by A.A." 1981 Conference Report "Item 5 The Committee considered the Twelfth Step Wallet, and agreed its usefulness as holder for Literature. Four items were considered for inclusion in the Wallet as a Twelfth Step Pack. These were "A Newcomer Asks", "Preamble Card", "Is AA For You?", and the Just For Today Card. It was felt however, that only Conference-approved literature be provided and the question of copyright for the Just For Today Card was raised. This had been fully investigated and reported on by the Fourteenth General Service Conference in 1979 and found to be free of restriction. This being no known impediment, the Committee therefore recommends that the Just For Today Card be given Conference-approval and included in the Twelfth Step Pack." The card was later referred to in a 1984 Prison Committee report: 1984 Conference Report Prisons (AA Aftercare) "There was general agreement on helping released prisoners. The important factors were the meeting of prisoners on release and ensuring at their destination. One area arranged for a "Just For Today" card to be given to the prisoner on release with a contact telephone number written on it - an idea that was warmly received by the Committee." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3957. . . . . . . . . . . . Townes Hospital Candlelight Ceremony Wrap-up From: Robt Woodson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2006 1:58:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To the AAhistorylover's group, I send my personal thanks, and another apology, in case anyone was inconvenienced by the problems that I had this year presenting accurate times for the Ceremony itself. With many thanks to you, the ceremony itself was a success, and very moving for those of us who were present...I like to think that we each brought a little of that light home with us. With your support the size of the affair has more than doubled from the first year's attendance, and we are hoping that with additional recognition the size will continue to grow in the next few years until we reach that magic "more than one hundred men and women" number that is mentioned in the Forward to the First Edition of the Big book in 1939. This year following dinner at a local restaurant eight of us walked the two and one half blocks to Townes Hospital to discover that several of you were there and waiting for us with more to arrive shortly including a wonderful couple from London in the U.K. With their presence, there were three countries, the US, Mexico, and the UK, and people from various cities and places including New York, Ohio and Akron, Stepping Stones from upstate New York, and New Jersey represented at the Candlelight gathering. Some arrived earlier in the day, and some later still at night, with the result that at least twenty were able to visit and pay their respects... the following evening we removed the Candle from the window in a similar ceremony to the first. We hope to see more of you next year, and we wish to thank those who were able to attend this year, (and those of you here, in Denmark, and certain Groups in Mexico who were with us in spirit). I came away with a spiritual charge and a sense of recommitment and dedication to our AA Fellowship. Many thanks too, to the friend's of AA that made this event possible by opening their hearts and homes to our spiritual quest, and allowing the candle to remain, lit, in what is now a private residence. Along the way I made a lot of new friends with members of this group who met us in different places including Stepping Stones, on the streets of New York, and at our New York GSO Archives. It was a special journey for me, it helps to open my eyes to the amazing journey which we have taken, and are still undertaking, as a fellowhip in a very large and still expanding global village. If you feel the need for, or might enjoy a modern pilgrimage, we'll be there again next year. Thanks again to this group, Woody in Akron IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3958. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The Little Red Book 25th printing From: DudleyDobinson . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/14/2006 3:47:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John, I have a 25th printing and it is the larger style. The title page gives Hazelden Center City as being the publishers. The same as the 23rd and 24th printings of 1969 and 1970. In 1996 Hazelden issued a 50th anniversary edition in the same format. In fellowship - Dudley In a message dated 12/14/06 02:02:38 GMT Standard Time, nov85_gr@graceba.net writes: Was the 25th printing the larger format? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3959. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who was B. L. from Manhattan, NY? From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2006 5:44:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From Mitchell K., Tom White, and Ernie Kurtz: it was Barry Leach. - - - From: "Mitchell K." (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) Could be Barry Leach (author of Living Sober). - - - From: Tom White (tomwhite at cableone.net) A good guess for BL of Manhattan is the late Barry Leach, a very considerable scribe, a good friend (secty?) to Lois, and author of the popular AAWS title Living Sober. - - - From: "Ernest Kurtz" (kurtzern at umich.edu) The "B.L." inquired about in a recent post was Barry Leach, who was also the main author of the AA book on spirituality called "Living Sober" and the pamphlet/series "Twelve Steps for the Older Member" -- not to mention a scathing attack on the political conservatism of the AA Board of Trustees. - - - Message 3954 from (rmcmillan5630 at yahoo.com) asked: > Hello all and best wishes! I am doing some > research on the Traditions and found a series of > articles in the Grapevine Archives written by a > B. L., Manhattan, NY. Each article seems to be > a "checklist" for each one the traditions. > > I visited our archives and searched on B.L. to > no avail. Can someone help me out, please? > > Gratefully yours, > > rm > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3960. . . . . . . . . . . . Photos of the first 100? From: broncoinsobriety . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2006 10:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Are there any pictures of the First 100? - - - From the moderator: Closer to forty than a hundred. But some versions of Nancy Olson's biographies of the authors of the stories in the Big Book have photos (when they could be found). See http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm for one version that has the photos. There used to be nice large photos of some of the early people hanging on the wall in one of the archives in Akron, I believe the one next door to Dr. Bob's house. Use Google, which has a button to click where you can look for images instead of text. Other members of the group can probably give us some valuable online sources of early AA photos, which I hope they will do. Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3961. . . . . . . . . . . . The "Who Me" brochure From: TBaerMojo@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/17/2006 10:35:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I would like more information on the decision about the "Who Me" brochure since I believe it was developed and printed in Birmingham, Alabama, by Street Printing Company. Our own local archive does not have an original copy but we are seeking some locally. Tim B District 6/7 Archive Chairman [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3962. . . . . . . . . . . . BL on the Traditions From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2006 1:59:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII All twelve of the articles are (I believe) in Volume I of The Best of the Grapevine -- though not in order. Perhaps they could be reprinted in order by the Grapevine -- or, failing that, by the Archives in NYC? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3963. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Who was B. L. from Manhattan, NY? From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2006 4:04:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Friends, I concur that B.L. from Manhattan was Barry Leach. I took a photo of him with Lois at AA's 45th anniversary in Akron; the speaker was Jack Bailey of "Queen for a Day" fame. But I don't think Barry wrote "Twelve Steps and the Older Member," or at least the series I remember by that name. The author of that series was Jerome Ellison, who had once held good positions with The Readers Digest and Colliers Magazine. He followed up his GV series with another called "Twelve Steps and the Older Member Revisited," or something like that. Jerry was editor of the Grapevine very briefly in the early 1960s. He was a very good writer and had done several books. The book I liked, and still have, is "Report to the Creator," which covers his drinking, collapse, and recovery. I met Jerry once at the Grapevine offices and later on at his home in Guilford, CT. He died some years ago at age 73. Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com (melb at accesstoledo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3964. . . . . . . . . . . . Barry L. (Manhattan): is his statement available? From: pgbunnyca . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2006 7:50:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII From: "Ernest Kurtz" (kurtzern at umich.edu) -- not to mention a scathing attack on the political conservatism of the AA Board of Trustees. Is this article available online? Yours in Sobriety, Peter G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3965. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Just for today card From: timderan . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2006 2:18:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Can anyone tell me where the just for today cards we use in the UK originate from. Also are they used in the rest of the world, USA, etc.?" The Just For Today card comes from Al-Anon. One can purchase them from Al-Anon as well as Hazelden and other resources devoted to recovery services. tmd IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3966. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Just for today card From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2006 12:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was hoping that someone else would respond to this question so that I could get additional history on this subject. In Philadelphia we have what is referred to as a Green Card. (Don't confuse it with immigration.) The first page has AA on the top, and under that it says "But for the Grace of God. Miracles Do Happen" then it has "A guide to Living" which consists of four short sentences. Beneath that is the Intergroup office address and telephone number. The middle two pages consist of "Just for Today" and the back page is "Yesterday- Today-Tomorrow." We were not sure of its origin but we thought it came from Cleveland. I remember our office manager contacting Cleveland Intergroup and asking if we "borrowed " it from them. They said they thought they "borrowed "it from us. Since it is published by an Intergroup no permission is needed from General Service to make it available. Many members carry it in their wallets and when I first came around I was told to read a paragraph a day from this lifesaving can-opener. I hope others can elaborate further on this subject. YIS Shakey Mike Gwirtz IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3967. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Photos of the first 100? From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/19/2006 12:12:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII There is an impressive display of early members in the house next to Dr. Bob's on 855 Ardmore. That house was purchased and turned into archives. I have some pictures of the pictures if anyone is interested. Chris B. Raleigh, NC PLEASE CONTACT CHRIS DIRECTLY AT: cbudnick@nc.rr.com (cbudnick at nc.rr.com) WE DON'T HAVE A "FORWARD" BUTTON ON THE YAHOO GROUP SYSTEM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3968. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: The "Who Me" brochure From: Mitchell K. . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/18/2006 11:36:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I used to have a whole bunch of "Who Me?" pamphlets printed by Cleveland AA Central Committee in the early days. I do believe these were green in color. It is quite often difficult to ascertain where much of this early literature originated unless there was local documentation announcing it. AA groups around the country obtained pamphlets etc. from other groups or traveling members and in turn, published them as their own. I had several pamphlets, all the same but often with different titles and all published by different AA entities. "Our Charge," "If God Spoke to AA," and others all contained a portion of a speech given by Judge John M. T. in Chicago in the early 1940's. This pamphlet/card showed up all across the US often with "author unknown" or anonymous or the name of a well known local AA member as the person this was taken from. It all was pretty much the same portion of that early Chicago address. ________________________________ From: "John Wikelius" (nov85_gr at graceba.net) The "Who Me" brochure I wrote one with the same name this year 2006. Encompasses why the newcomer is so important to AA. ________________________________ > I would like more information on the decision > about the "Who Me" brochure since I believe it > was developed and printed in Birmingham, Alabama, > by Street Printing Company. Our own local archive > does not have an original copy but we are > seeking some locally. > > Tim B > District 6/7 Archive Chairman IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3969. . . . . . . . . . . . The "attack" was by Jerome E., not Barry L. From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2006 6:33:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII First, I apologize for confusing Barry Leach and Jerome Ellison in my earlier post. Mel: thanks for catching that so gently. Second, as I remember it, I saw the "attack" piece (also by Ellison rather than Leach) in manuscript form -- I cannot now recall where it was published, though I believe it was submitted to the Saturday Evening Post. Mel, perhaps you can again be of help here? Your memory is truly amazing -- far better than my notes or archives. Thanks again, to all who contribute to our wider and deeper appreciation of AA's full story. ernie kurtz __________________________ pgbunnyca wrote: > > > From: "Ernest Kurtz" > (kurtzern at umich.edu) > > -- not to mention a scathing > attack on the political conservatism of the AA > Board of Trustees. > > Is this article available online? > > Yours in Sobriety, > > Peter G. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3970. . . . . . . . . . . . Burnie Smith Talks From: feelgoodcp . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2006 8:20:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have always been taken by the talks I have heard on Tape of Burnie Smith. I wanted to ask if anyone knows were I could aquire his talks on disk (CD). I asked GSO and their reply was that they have them but are not sure who owned the copyright and are working on that. So if anyone can tell me were I can get any and all of his talks please drop me a line or posting. I have some in text but the delivery means so much. (feelgoodcp at yahoo.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3971. . . . . . . . . . . . 12x12 printing, 1981 or later From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/26/2006 8:22:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I recently p/u a 12x12 on eBay that does not list a printing number. The copyrights are 1952, 1953, and 1981 and has "First Printing, April 1953" right under the copyright declaration. The footnote on p. 18 says "In 1990, A.A. is established in 134 countries." Does this volume have a printing number and the publisher forgot to note it? Tommy H in Baton Rouge IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3972. . . . . . . . . . . . Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions From: a49585 . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2006 12:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I heard a tape of Bill Wilson talking about the 12 Traditions, dated 1969. Towards the end of the tape, he mentioned that his talk was being filmed. He also stated that the film was only for AA use. Does anyone know of such a film, and if so, how to obtain a copy? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3973. . . . . . . . . . . . Mary Darrah''s "Sister Ignatia" From: James R . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/30/2006 12:58:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was given a copy of Mary Darrah's biography of Sister Ignatia for Christmas. Early on the book mentions that soon after Sr Ignatia's death there was some thought that she might be canonized. Does anyone know if any progress was made in that direction? Jim C. - - - From the moderator: I have been given to understand that, whenever the subject of starting the canonization process for Sister Ignatia is brought up in Catholic Church circles, the immediate response is apt to be that Mary Darrah ought to initiate and oversee the process, as the one most qualified to do it. Mary tells me that it takes a whole lot of money to do all of the extensive research necessary to carry out that process, and that she does not have the funds (and I would suspect probably doesn't have the time either) to initiate and supervise such an extremely involved process. It involves truly massive research into the candidate's whole background in enormous detail, and is apt to require a widespread campaign involving hundreds (if not thousands) of supporters to get someone canonized as a saint. But if there is some group already working seriously on campaigning for Sister Ignatia's canonization, a group that I don't know about, please send us a message. Glenn Chesnut South Bend, Indiana P.S. Not to detract from Sister Ignatia's extraordinary labors and spiritual power, we already have an alcoholic saint. St. Monica (the mother of the great African church father, St. Augustine) was a childhood alcoholic, but was able to stop drinking by turning to the spiritual life. Augustine tells her story in his "Confessions." That's St. Monica, as in Santa Monica, California. Augustine himself was what we would call today a sexual addict, who could not stop his compulsive womanizing until he finally realized that he had to do the same thing that his mother had done to deal with her alcoholism. It worked for his problem too, which is one of the major themes in his "Confessions." IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3974. . . . . . . . . . . . How to take Akron tour? From: Rob White . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2006 12:15:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII We have a small group of AA's from Baltimore that want to visit Akron in Feb or March 2007. Any recommendations about who to talk to, what to see , where to stay, etc...? It would be nice to get a good plan together before we leave. Dr. Bob's House, Seiberling Estate, Mayflower Hotel, Dr Bob's Hospital, etc. thanks Rob W. Baltimore 410-328-8549 Robert White, University of Maryland, Baltimore, Department of Psychiatry IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3975. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Just for today card From: ollie_olorenshaw . . . . . . . . . . . . 12/24/2006 6:18:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII The Just for Today cards are actively used in AA in Australia. Best wishes from Australia Ollie - - - > "Can anyone tell me where the just for today cards > we use in the UK originate from. Also are they used > in the rest of the world, USA, etc.?" 1: http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsforjamesh.html 2: http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msandk=Addiction+recovery+programandw1=Addiction 3: http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msandk=Recovery+from+addictionandw1=Addiction+re 4: http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msandk=Addiction+recovery+centerandw1=Addiction+ 5: http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msandk=Christian+addiction+recoveryandw1=Addicti 6: http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msandk=Alcoholics+anonymousandw1=Addiction+recov 7: http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/amazon/books/alcohol-abuse/the-lois-wilson-story-when-love-is-not-enough-the-authori-1592853285.html 8: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1568383738/sr=8-1/qid=1152114402/ref=sr_1_1/103-0857880-6268643?ie=UTF8 9: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILSandgrid=andxml=/news/2006/08/26/db2601.xml 10: http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/NATIONAL%20ARCHIVES%20Schedule%20_2_.pdf 11: http://www.boydsmillspress.com/detail.tpl?command=showpageandisbn=1_59078_067_1andbookid=0633andauthorid=0783andbkcategory=NonfictionandBookTitle=Bill%20W.%20%20A%20Different%20Kind%20of%20Hero%3A%20The%20Story%20of%20Alcoholics%20Anonymous 12: http://library.brown.edu/search/?searchtype=Xandsearcharg=clarence+snyderandsearchscope=7andSORT=Aandextended=0andSUBMIT=Searchandsearchlimits=andsearchorigarg=Xalcohol AA History Lovers 2006 — moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut — page 1